AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2009 > February > 20 > Entry
Did we move too fast on the stimulus package?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
The “stimulus package,” passed in a panic, is a bad combination: the most expensive and least understood special appropriations law in history. In attempting to help the economy, it makes radical policy changes that lawmakers would never have approved if they had taken a triage approach and passed the most urgent pieces first, then taken more time to understand others. For example, President Clinton’s welfare reform, lauded as one of the most effective policies of our generation, will be effectively eviscerated by the new methods of a bill passed in three weeks.
Anyone with Capitol Hill experience knows that large, urgent legislation typically passes in a “fog of war” scenario, with exhausted staffers drafting hundreds or thousands of pages of legislation, and other legislators exercising an extreme Ievel of trust that someone relatively smart understands each piece of it.
Congressional lawmakers and staffers had just hours to review the 1,000 page stimulus package. Leading democrat Charles Rangel was quoted in “Politico” ruefully laughing that Senate Democrats “don’t know everything that’s in the bill.” In essence, our leaders didn’t lead: they gave into public panic and threw $787 billion in spaghetti against the wall, hoping some of it would stick, instead of spending a few more months to fully develop the less-urgent policies.
We’ve been in this same economic situation before without lawmakers panicking this way. In 1989 to1992, for example, we had the same burst housing bubble, S&Ls and banks failing every day, and hundreds of thousands rapidly losing jobs. The unemployment rate was, like today, passing 7 percent (it was even higher during the 1980s), and the sense of urgency led my Senate Banking Committee bosses to work around the clock to get relief and reform passed. And yet, if memory serves, the quickest bill was passed in six months and the longest took more than a year — and was (at around $250 billion) nowhere near the cost of this initiative.
The Heritage Foundation’s Brian Riedl explained in an interview that, “We are creating a permanent redesign of the government and economy due to a temporary recession, passed by lawmakers who haven’t even read it. Why do we have to pass this whole thing before Presidents Day? The economy is still going to be there next week.”
Rebuttal
De facto GOP Leader Rush Limbaugh took a lot of flack when he admitted that he hopes the Obama presidency fails. Yet after listening to the foot-stamping tantrums of elected Republicans the past few weeks, it’s clear that they’re taking Rush’s obstructionist attitude one step further: they want you, the American people, to fail. They want you to lose your job, not be able to find another one, and wind up cursing Hope and Change from your bed on the sidewalk.
Harsh words, indeed. Yet I promise you, I didn’t move too fast towards this conclusion. I first noted that many GOP strategists join the Heritage Foundation’s Brian Riedl in promoting the fact that “the economy is still going to be there next week.” What an interesting defense of inaction. Sure, the economy will “be there” but in what form? Couldn’t we just keep saying that, week after week, until one day we wake up in Hooverville?
The stimulus plan isn’t perfect, but there’s no perfect solution here. One thing is certain —by the time the precise course of necessary action is known, it will be too late to make a difference. So why not follow the lead of the man we elected to address the crisis just three months ago?
Ah, but then the GOP would have to compromise. Instead, they offer up an alternative bill that relies exclusively on tax cuts, then complain of being “shut out” when their plan isn’t adopted. Other demonstrations of compelling leadership? Representative Eric Cantor’s YouTube video (before it was taken down after a copyright infringement claim) gleefully boasts of the Republican’s zero house participation while Aerosmith screeches “Back in the Saddle” again.
Back in the saddle, maybe, but finding no trail out of this mess. “You can’t approach something this big with nothing but rhetoric,” Joe Scarborough chided his peers the other day. Unfortunately, reasonable views like this within the party are being drowned out in a chorus of “Yes We Can Obstruct!”
Still, maybe we should have spent more time trying to bring a seemingly intractable GOP team to the table. After all, we’re searching for a plan designed to save a dying economy.
I mean, it’s not like this is a war in the Middle East or anything. Now that’s something you rush into….
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Comments
By Bruno
February 20, 2009 2:55 PM | Link to this
First!
By American Woman
February 20, 2009 3:03 PM | Link to this
Interesting that Ms. Feldhahn cites the recessionary years of Bush the Smarter and the S&L crisis in which massive corporate bailouts followed the Reagan-led policy of “we don’t need no regulation!” Welfare for the rich, it was. The GOP’s battle cry of “FREEDOM” could only be more entertaining if they did it wearing blue face paint and kilts, ala Mel G.
Freedom, YES! (For individuals and private, personal actions? Oh, HECK NO!) GOP Freedom is for suited execs to run their companies and make a profit any darned way they please, no matter who gets hurt down the road! So when bankers like Neil Bush (Silverado $1.3 Bil, ‘88), ran their institutions into the ground because rules were loose and consequences were left to the Almighty Free Market they worship, the GOP in charge were all too happy to donate to the “get the yacht back” funds of their fraternity (and actual) brothers. With OUR tax dollars, of course.
Fast forward through those years of relative peace, prosperity, and surplus few people want to talk about, to 21st-century America: While “conservative” Americans were busy freaking out over the private lives of others, cowering in fear, and willingly relinquishing the Bill of Rights one little piece at a time, UNREGULATED bankers, brokers, developers, defense contractors, energy executives and assorted suited crooks ran totally uninhibited through the possibilities of the un-earned, quick-buck, eff-the-consequences modern American Dream. “How can I make the most money with the least effort by taking the greatest risks while ensuring that I will be insulated from the consequences of that risk?” Wow, what a number they pulled, huh? Most of us were too busy actually working to realize what they were doing would affect us, and besides, Greenspan didn’t seem worried…
Whether or not this stimulus package is the best thing going forward is not something I have the education or understanding to decide. All I know is we appear to be sailing off the edge of the earth, and somebody needs to turn the ship around! (Hang on to your life vests and pray for the Captain!)
I’m grateful, though, for the comic relief provided by the GOP Senators and Congressmen! Their little “Spending is irresponsible!” dance is a HOOT and a HALF! They think we don’t remember that THEY enabled dumping billions of unaudited present and future tax dollars into private coffers in Iraq — money we’ll never see again, and never see the benefits of! (No justice for Bin Laden, though….) It’s like watching them at a court-mandated AA meeting! “Drinking is BAD… it’s irresponsible! It’s BAD, we tell you!” Uh-huh. Isakson, Chambliss, Price, Gingrey, Westmoreland: YOU GUYS ARE SOOOO EFFING FUNNY! Now can you do it with the face paint and skirts? We’ll need more comedy before this is over.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 20, 2009 3:10 PM | Link to this
Andi? What are you smoking? Please!
By The Other jack
February 20, 2009 3:10 PM | Link to this
Andrea
I like the way you are thinkin’. And I’m sure you are more than willing to not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. So I am going to bring a few contracts by your office on Monday, which will be so great for you. Any problems you have, they are going to solve.
I’ll be sort of running on Monday, so you won’t have time to actually read the contracts, but you can rest assured that they are really great contracts and will make your life so much better. Now don’t even think about being an obstructionist like those mean old Republicans and refuse to sign an important document that you haven’t been given the time to read and study. That’s just silly. I would never want you to sign anything that would benefit me and hurt you. No way. I’m sure you trust me as least as much as the Republicans trust the Democrats. So go ahead and start picking out a really decorative writing instrument so you will always remember the contracts that you signed but never read. (Not that you will have a hard time remembering them)
I’m really looking forward to seeing those contracts start to improve your life and the lives of the members of your family. See you on Monday.
(And no, I’m not coming to your office on Monday, but your rebuttal is about the dumbest bunch of crap I have ever seen you write, and that is saying a lot. It did not address a single point that Shaunti had made. It did however put you right there with the rest of the half wits that are screaming Obstructionist!! Obstructionist!! Congratulations. The tiny bit of respect I had for you just left.)
By Gale
February 20, 2009 3:11 PM | Link to this
My short answer is Yes and No. Too fast, Yes. Fast enough, No. I agree that a triage method would have been better than the spagetti against the wall legislation. This will cause us more greif than the knee jerk Sarbaynes-Oxley Bill reaction to Exxon. I remember Obama saying something about cutting programs that don’t solve problems. I wonder how many are infused into this bill. After listening to commentators “explain” several provisions, I am guessing that some provisions contain a lot of words that give completely unworkable solutions.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 20, 2009 3:12 PM | Link to this
It’s simple really. More goverment is bad, less goverment is good!
By Bruno
February 20, 2009 3:14 PM | Link to this
It must be nice to live in your simplistic, blame-the-GOP-for-everything world, AW. No thinking required.
By Bruno
February 20, 2009 3:17 PM | Link to this
From last week’s board:
Mara— clusterflock. org/2009/02/crisis-of-credit.html
Mara—Excellent link explaining the credit crisis. And while USinUK and others want to lay all of the blame at the feet of the large financial institutions, at the bottom level of the crisis are homebuyers who should have known that they were buying a house that they couldn’t afford, dishonest appraisers who attached inflated values to homes on the market, and dishonest bond rating companies who gave AAA ratings to large bundles of mortgages that only deserved a BBB rating or worse.
Regardless of how we got into this mess, the bottom line is that a lot of folks bought houses that aren’t worth the original sales price. And from my understanding of basic capitalism, there is nothing the government or anyone else can do to artificially restore the over-inflated values to these homes. Only the market can do that, and it will likely take a long, long time for that to happen. It is possible that we Americans may never achieve the high standard of living we all enjoyed in the late 1990s and early 2000s. If that happens, then we will just have to adjust. The bottom line is that there is no easy, government-driven solution to this crisis, which is why I don’t support Obama’s vision of Big Brother fixing it all by printing more money.
By AW
February 20, 2009 3:20 PM | Link to this
Yeah, we all know how much YOU WISH. Stay away from my world, psycho. I thought you’d pledged not to respond to me. Not much of a shelf life on your word, huh?
By Bruno
February 20, 2009 4:04 PM | Link to this
In case any of the blame-the-GOP’ers forgot, it was under Jimmy Carter that the original Community Reinvestment Act became law. And it was Bill Clinton who signed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, a cornerstone of Depression-era regulation. He also signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which exempted credit-default swaps from regulation. In 1995 Clinton loosened housing rules by rewriting the Community Reinvestment Act. Finally, It’s a little hard to believe that all of the greedy mortgage lenders and hedge-fund managers were all Republicans.
From my perspective, there is plenty of blame to go around. Anyone trying to pin it all on one party is simply playing the “Politics of Divisiveness” game.
By Lyrazel
February 20, 2009 4:06 PM | Link to this
1 reason stimulus package was passed rapidly was because the House & Senate were going ON VACATION…and that sure would not have looked good if they skipped out of town on their private lobbyist-sponsored jets with 5 million unemployed folk waiting for them at the airport. 2 SHOW ME a Red state that refuses the funding.By Jack
February 20, 2009 4:24 PM | Link to this
they voted on it without having time to read it. The 3 republicans that voted for it should be tar n feathered. Then shot.
By Bruno
February 20, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this
they voted on it without having time to read it. The 3 republicans that voted for it should be tar n feathered. Then shot.
No worries, Jack. Big Brother is going to fix it all. Free housing, free college education, and , who knows, maybe free food for us all one day. Just keep printing more money. Yea, that’s the ticket.
By Lyrazel
February 20, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
Jack, 2 were from Maine whose constituents called asking them to vote for it. Doing what your constituents want is part of being elected.
By The Other jack
February 20, 2009 4:40 PM | Link to this
AW
Really impressive rant. And an interesting twist on History. But you did leave out the fact that because this is the worst dire situation since the Great depression, (Obama’s own words) all those actions by those mean old bankers and other evil Republicans must not have mattered because the economy cruised until the Democrats took over Congress in 2006.
So exactly what point were you making? Or better yet, were you going for a point or was it just too much fun to type GOP over and over?
Seriously, do you realize that you were attempting to support the biggest single outlay in American Tax Dollars the world has ever known at the same time you were going nuts over the fact that the GOP was spending your Tax dollars?
So basically, you don’t mind someone blowing money that your great grandchildren will be paying back as long as that someone is not a Republican. Is that your point?
By American Woman
February 20, 2009 4:43 PM | Link to this
They voted on the Patriot Act without having time to read it, too. Imminent mushroom clounds notwithstanding, they were weak and scared and did not do their jobs.
In fact, how much time do our representatives actually spend reading ANY bill? Almost none, I’ll bet! Do they lunch with people for or against certain bills? Do they defer to Brother Bluto (party leadership) to tell them how they feel? Do they have their staff tally the for/against emails and phone calls? Do they determine who among their constituents, lobbyist buddies, and supporters are for/against it? Sure! But I don’t think they read even a tiny percentage of the wording they actually vote on.
Every last sorry one of them in either party spends most of his or her time trying to get reelected! I don’t think they read the bills at all.
By The Other jack
February 20, 2009 4:55 PM | Link to this
AW
They voted on the Patriot Act without having time to read it, too.
The whole thing takes about two hours to read. I don’t know about the people that you vote for, but the people I vote for can read the patriot act in the month and a half between 9-11 and Oct. 26, when it was passed.
Don’t you think that it is kind of telling that you are the only liberal that is even attempting to defend this “stimulus” madness?
By American Woman
February 20, 2009 4:59 PM | Link to this
No, TOJ, that is not my point. I openly admitted that I do not have the knowledge of economics to comprehend whether this stimulus bill is the right thing going forward or not. And based convos with people I know who DO have extensive economic understanding, no one REALLY does. Alan Greenspan was the ultimate trusted guru, remember? And he testified not long ago that he really just misjudged things, or something to that affect.
My point is was simply that decades of saying we don’t need to regulate things that affect everybody, (while advocating the opposite for personal freedom), and the failure of many numerous entities to do so, has opened the barn door and let all the animals out. Now that our livestock is scattered to the four corners, highjacked, barbequed, and eaten, the current boss is saying, LET’S INVEST IN A GOOD BARN DOOR AND BUY SOME MORE LIVESTOCK. It probably IS too little too late, but don’t act like the wasteful spending begins this week, Dude. Six billion dollars a month in Iraq gave us deficits we can’t afford, and every time I brought up the no-bid, cost-plus, unaudited contracts to Cheney’s buddies, I was treated like a traitor. So don’t put words in MY mouth. I bought a reasonably-priced little house and make the payments, so this s—t sure as heck isn’t MY fault!!!!
By The Other jack
February 20, 2009 5:13 PM | Link to this
AW
I’m not blaming you. I was actually stuck with a monster mortgage after my divorce when I lost my only, HUGE client. I went from well into six figures to less than 14,000 a year, but I never was even late on my mortgage. I still have perfect credit, but I literally mowed yards to do it. That house is long gone and now I live in the worst house on my block. It’s mine, but it’s not much.
You said we couldn’t afford 6 billion a month. That is 72 billion a year. Five years? That’s 350 billion. We gave away twice that amount in one day (yes, Bush was right in the middle of it) and we don’t even know where it went.
Gold went over a grand an ounce today. Do you understand why gold is going crazy right now? That’s because we are destroying the value of the dollar. Money is becoming more and more worthless, so to fix that, we are borrowing another 800 billion and most Democrats are saying that isn’t enough. Logic is out the window.
I honestly sounds like a horror story from a history book. God help us all.
By American Woman
February 20, 2009 5:36 PM | Link to this
I’m still trying to figure out what part of “I don’t know if this stimulus is the right thing or not” was interpreted to mean “I support the biggest single outlay in American Tax Dollars the world has ever known.”
We’re ALL freaking out right now. How could we not? I won’t pretend to understand things I don’t, but I know what I know, letting big corporations and bankers have carte blanche with little or no accountability is a BAD thing, no matter who let it happen! If people’s only response is “government should do nothing,” I’d like to hear them tell it to the folks in Blakely who have no peanut plant to work in now, because “small government” proponents don’t think it’s wise to spend tax dollars on food safety inspectors. Or the retirement-age folks whose entire pensions disappeared when Enron went down. Or the thousands robbed blind by Madoff in the years since that guy reported him and the SEC did nothing. Or the people whose loved ones disappear into the water when the next rickety old bridge collapses or another half-constructed levee gives way. Have a great weekend!
By The Other jack
February 22, 2009 11:03 AM | Link to this
AW
letting big corporations and bankers have carte blanche with little or no accountability is a BAD thing, no matter who let it happen!
I keep hearing this argument. The regulations were in place, but some very dominate Democrats kept demanding that regulations be eased so Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac can lower their loan standards. So that’s what they did. The government controls all of that because they need to guarantee those loans.
I’d like to hear them tell it to the folks in Blakely who have no peanut plant to work in now, because “small government” proponents don’t think it’s wise to spend tax dollars on food safety
You are the second person to use that example. The problem is that the peanut processing plant in Blakely was highly regulated like any company that puts food in our food supply. The FDA is the problem here. They did not do their job, but you want more incompetent government agencies not doing their job. The government is not the answer. In this case it should have been the answer, but as usual, the big government bureaucracy dropped the ball.
The problems with Madold could not be regulated. It was a scheme that worked. You can’t regulate enough to fix all dishonest people.
By Bruno
February 22, 2009 2:09 PM | Link to this
TOJ—Good luck trying to reason with people like AW, who want to believe that a fail-safe world can somehow be created by making our government larger and larger. And good luck trying to reason with folks like USinUK, who can’t envision an economy fixing itself through free-market forces.
“We’re from the Government, and we’re here to help”.
By Bruno
February 22, 2009 2:22 PM | Link to this
As for the peanut plant in Blakely, it is my understanding that the plant management KNEW that their products were tainted, but decided to ship them anyway. As such, they will likely face criminal prosecution, in the same way that the managers of Enron were vigorously prosecuted, and in the same way that Madoff will face vigorous prosecution.
The bottom line is that if you support and cherish freedom, it comes with the understanding that freedom also includes the freedom to fail, and the freedom to be dishonest (at least temporarily). And though criminal prosecution of dishonest people might rightly be characterized as “closing the barn door after the animals ran away”, the alternative, no freedom at all, is far worse. As much as I feel sorry for the folks who lost their life savings through the collapse of Enron and the implosion of Madoff’s Ponzi investment scheme, in the end the principle of caveat emptor (buyer beware) remains. Before I ever buy stock in a company, I do extensive research into that company, including not only the fundamentals of their balance sheet, but also into the basic honesty of the mangement team in place.
By Bruno
February 22, 2009 2:58 PM | Link to this
If any of you have the courage to invest money right now, I highly suggest keeping a close eye on Parker Drilling (sticker symbol PKD). They provide management and drilling equipment for oil and gas exploration worldwide. Due to the (temporary) oversupply of crude oil right now, their stock is in the tank at $1.55 per share. Their fourth quarter earnings for 2008 haven’t been posted yet, but their P/E ratio is less than 2, which is mind-boggling. As soon as oil production ramps up again, I would expect the stock to return to its normal value of $8-$12 per share, thus giving investors a chance to 6-tuple their money. I’m planning on buying 10k-20k worth of their stock in the next month or so.
By The Other jack
February 22, 2009 4:06 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I had a date last night. I have a very extensive video collection and she said that she had never seen Schindler’s List. I have the DVD so we watched it.
There were so many sections of that movie that literally made my skin crawl, but the worst was a constant reference to how the NAZIS were changing the vocabulary. At one point, Schindler ask the NAZI that was running the workers camp: What, are we changing the language now, and the NAZI simply said: yes, we are.
USinUK has said that she thinks that modern comparisons with NAZIs devalue the suffering that Jews were expposed to, but that slant also negates the ability to see how some very evil people in the past made some very evil actions acceptable. I think that some very evil people now are doing the same thing. Instead of unborn baby, they try to call it a future human? If it weren’t so disgusting, it would be funny.
As far as the deal in Blakely, i think the FDA inspectors should be held responsible as well as the plant managers. But of course that would mean that government employees would be held to the same standards as the rest of us and we both know that is never going to happen.
Also, isn’t it weird that two different people have brought up Blakely and tried to suggest it all happened because of lack of government control, when in fact it was caused because of lack of government competence.
There is one good thing about all of this: Remember that this is what the Democrats did in 1992 when Clinton took office. They immediately went hog wild and did everything the could to turn this into another National Socialist Workers Party nirvana. They lost control of Congress in two short years. This time it is ten times worse and even they are saying that this will not begin to help for years. Big friggin’ news break democrats: You ain’t got years. If the economy is not roaring back to life in 18 months, no amount of media indoctrination is going to save the democrats in Congress.
I have been saying that the only way to save the country is put the luny Democrats in charge and hope they don’t bring down the country before the Republicans regain control of our government. The media helped them hide the fact that our economy has been controlled by the dims since 2006, when everything went to hell, but no one is going to claim that any of this is the Republican’s fault.
If we can just hang on for two years, hopefully the stench of socialism will be enough to convince the American public that Hope and Change don’t mean anything if the change destroys all hope.
By Bruno
February 22, 2009 4:59 PM | Link to this
If we can just hang on for two years, hopefully the stench of socialism will be enough to convince the American public that Hope and Change don’t mean anything if the change destroys all hope.
What concerns me thus far is the number of people who are willing to follow Obama blindly, when his “strategy” for “fixing” the economy has been proven to be a loser over and over. He campaigned time and again against the “politics of divisiveness”, but pulled the class warfare card out at every opportunity, which people fell for hook, line, and sinker. Personally, I try to emulate the wealthy, rather than let my envy for them turn me into your proverbial “crab in a bucket”.
I think Obama is an eloquent speaker, and likely a nice person, but, frankly, I don’t think that he knows his butt from a hole in the ground when it comes to economic matters. As far as I know, he’s never run a business on his own, but has always worked in non-producing jobs such as a college professor and a “community organizer”.
* I had a date last night. I have a very extensive video collection and she said that she had never seen Schindler’s List. I have the DVD so we watched it*.
Hmmm—that likely wouldn’t be a movie I would choose for a date, at least if I was hoping on any romance later on. But, hey, whatever works…… ; > }
By Bruno
February 22, 2009 5:13 PM | Link to this
I sincerely hope that I’m wrong, TOJ, but I have a baaaad feeling that historians will one day point to the years 2008-2009 as the point in time when the US was flushed down the toilet. 2008, for when Bush & Co. attempted to nationalize the banking system, and 2009 when Obama & Co. decide to spend a trillion dollars we didn’t have on a bunch of nonsense pork barrel projects. And I stand firm in my prediction that this new trillion in spending won’t be the end of it.
Foolishly, the liberals keep harping on small potatoes such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. As reprehensible as the situations there may be, they only affected a small handful of people. This same group of liberals, however, are now cheering on the dismantling of our free enterprise system, and seem to have no concerns on the effect it will have on future generations. We’ve been fortunate to have an extremely low rate of inflation the past 16+ years, but all of that will change in the next few years due to the irresponsible spending going on right now.
By Mara
February 23, 2009 8:12 AM | Link to this
Did we pass the stimulus package too fast? I think yes…and no. I honestly believe that any legislation should get a thorough scrutiny – read through completely, discussed, debated, and understood – before being put up for a vote. In the real world, though, circumstances aren’t always conducive to slow deliberation. I certainly recall economist from BOTH sides of the ideological spectrum (up to and including conservative stalwarts like Allen Sinai and Alan Viard) agreeing that in light of how quickly the economic crisis was progressing, speed was more important than content in regard to legislation.
I don’t “know” economics and make no pretense that I completely understand the situation we’re in, but I’m willing to listen to smart people who do. What I heard from a broad spectrum of fiscal experts is that the longer we waited the worse it’d be and the more difficult the choices. I may not agree with everything that’s in the bill (and I certainly think it could have been better if more Republicans had chosen to negotiate in good faith), but I don’t think that it would have been prudent to put it off until it satisfied everyone.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 8:30 AM | Link to this
Bruno
The “date” wasn’t much of a date. and no there was no making out during Schindlers List. I hadn’t seen her in about two years and let’s just say that she was a different person. Actually she was the equivalent of two different people. The worst thing about watching Schindler’s List was that in a three hour movie, she ate me out of house and hime. I was just glad to get her out of here before she ate my cat.
I didn’t catch the Oscars last night. Were there any political jokes like there have been for the past eight years by that incredibly unbiased Hollywood elite?
sincerely hope that I’m wrong, TOJ, but I have a baaaad feeling that historians will one day point to the years 2008-2009 as the point in time when the US was flushed down the toilet.
Would that be the same historians that have taught our children that the racist democrats that infested every local government that was beating and mistreating African-Americans in the North and the South were actually Republicans? The same historians who have made sure that no child will ever know the actual party that George Wallace belonged to, that believe that Robert Byrd is the conscience of the Democratic Party, even though he is a lifelong member of the KKK? Those historians?
Historians in other countries might know the truth, but anything that happens in the next four years will be somehow blamed on Bush here in our educational system. It would take a complete outlawing of the NEA before the truth will ever be told in our schools again.
I spent the entire day yesterday trying to figure out how to do a single simple specific thing with my new HD editing software. I HAVE to make this work today.
Have a good one.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 8:39 AM | Link to this
Bruno, I agree that Barry doesn’t know his butt from a hole in the ground, but I don’t think he’s nice. Who else was an Eloguent speaker? Herr Hitler? Senor Chez? Ramandangadingdong? Rhetoric at it’s finest. He read every day letters from citizens, just like FDR! What a joke.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 8:45 AM | Link to this
Mara
* I certainly recall economist from BOTH sides of the ideological spectrum (up to and including conservative stalwarts like Allen Sinai and Alan Viard) agreeing that in light of how quickly the economic crisis was progressing, speed was more important than content in regard to legislation.*
I can’t imagine any serious economists pushing that we spend another 800 billion that we don’t have for programs that we haven’t studied. Obama says that this will not take effect for months and months so exactly what was the rush? Like it or not, common sense and a clear view of who is running the country tells you that they wanted it enacted BEFORE we could take a serious look at it. FOX was already ripping it apart and support for it was in a nose dive.
As far as the Republicans, read Andrea’s column again. Take a very close look at her argument. Screaming Obstructionist!! Obstructionist!! is the only defense she has. Republicans did the smart thing. Would you sign a contract that you were not allowed to read? This was nothing but all the pork that the dims have been trying to push through for the last twenty years.
It’s done now. And the welfare state just grew bigger than it has ever been. They got rid of Clinton’s Welfare reform with one stroke of Obama’s pen.
Bend over America, the Democrats are in charge. You may notice that as we move through the next four years, that saying will hold more and more validity.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 8:49 AM | Link to this
Bruno Gandalf
I have always been a fan of Allen Keys. Now I’m a huge fan: http:// www. youtube. com/watch?v=RWdCNodGrA8
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 9:14 AM | Link to this
Gandalf
I thought you might find this interesting:
WND has reported on multiple legal challenges to Obama’s status as a “natural born citizen.” The Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, states, “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.”
Some question whether he was actually born in Hawaii, as he insists. If he was born out of the country, Obama’s American mother, the suits contend, was too young at the time of his birth to confer American citizenship to her son under the law at the time.
Other challenges have focused on Obama’s citizenship through his father, a Kenyan subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of his birth, thus making him a dual citizen. The cases contend the framers of the Constitution excluded dual citizens from qualifying as natural born.
By Mara
February 23, 2009 9:45 AM | Link to this
TOJ - This was nothing but all the pork that the dims have been trying to push through for the last twenty years.
I don’t know if you realize it, but any merit your arguments may have are completely eclipsed by your use of the pejorative “dims”. It tends to imply opposition because of WHO wrote it as opposed the what’s in it or whether everyone read it.
And speaking of what’s in it, you stated that the package is “nothing but all the pork…” I have to point out that it also contains the largest TAX CUT in U.S. history. And that cut is the largest percentage of ‘spending’ in the bill. The next two largest items are in temporary Medicaid matching funds and state fiscal relief. Many states are so strapped that they’ve been cutting safety services like police, and firefighters. Somehow I don’t think a lot of people would consider helping states retain police and firefighters to be ‘pork’.
Certainly there is a small percentage of porky programs, which is only to be expected given the way politics works, but the majority of programs seem to be fairly reasonable.
Of course, that’s just my opinion and as I’ve already stated…I’m no economist.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 10:03 AM | Link to this
TOJ, I know you didn’t address the comment to me. But I want to add my two cents to the dual citizen comment. I don’t like the idea of the President of the USA having a dual citizenship. He should drop his Kenyen citizenship. It gives him a conflict of interest.
By Mara
February 23, 2009 10:20 AM | Link to this
TOJ - how old is the WND article you cite? I thought all this crazy talk was settled back in December when the SCOTUS refused to hear it. Not to mention the fact that all the suits so far have been dismissed by every court that’s looked at them…
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
Mara
don’t know if you realize it, but any merit your arguments may have are completely eclipsed by your use of the pejorative “dims”. It tends to imply opposition because of WHO wrote it as opposed the what’s in it or whether everyone read it.
Absolutely. And of course that only applies to anyone who is not a liberal, right? If derogatory remarks about Republicans held the same power to negate what was being said, there’s not a liberal on the board that would have an ounce of credibility left. In case you haven’t figured it out, everyone is going to speak their mind. If you take offense that the term “dim” was used when referring to the idiots in Washington that have just spent a trillion and a half very real dollars while we continue to watch our world fall apart, then I would suggest that your skin is way-yonder too thin to be on a political blog.
There are provisions in the bill that require that before a city can accept the money that is being offered , they need to make several changes in their social services systems including the requirement that able bodied welfare recipients need to work. So much for welfare reform. I just heard that on CNBC. I am making a point of watching that overtly biased network today and it is amazing how they are freaking out over the Federal takeover of Citybank. I just heard one of their financial experts break out laughing when asked if he would buy Citybank Stock. Citybank stock, Mara. He was just as amused when he was asked about Bank of America stock. Those are both part of the DOW average so it’s not like they are small stocks.
Just heard Harry Ried talking about how we need to replace oil with Solar, wind and geothermal. They came back to the anchor at CNBC and he laughed and said ” Yes, I’ve got to get me one of those geothermal powered SUVs.
CNBC is laughing at the incompetence of our government. Not FOX News, but CNBC.
And you are worried about me calling them dims.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 10:43 AM | Link to this
Gale, Mara
There is no doubt that a duel citizenship is prohibited by the Constitution, but the courts also have to, at times, fold to public discourse. You think the Rodney King riots were bad? Pull Obama from the White House on a technicality and it could start a Civil War.
The article was from Feb. 22, 2009. I learned about this from a conservative blog that I visit. Someone just posted his birth certificate and it has no official seal. It was from http:// www. fightthesmears.com. php5-9.websitetestlink.com/images/28.jpg
Nothing is going to come of this. But I thought it was interesting.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 10:46 AM | Link to this
Mara
here’s a link to that WorldNetDaily article: http:// wnd. com/index. php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=89704
By Gale
February 23, 2009 10:54 AM | Link to this
TOJ, I wouldn’t disqualify him or take him out of office. It just doesn’t “feel” right to me for the POTUS to have dual citizenship. It isn’t like he is CEO of an international corporation, he represents a country.
By Mara
February 23, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ - I would suggest that your skin is way-yonder too thin to be on a political blog
whatever.
Gale - It just doesn’t “feel” right to me for the POTUS to have dual citizenship
the ‘fight the smears’ site that TOJ referenced has some very interesting info, icluding a copy of his Birth Certificate, complete with Hawaii State Seal.
That said, according to FactCheck.org, yes, as a child he held dual citizenship but upon reaching adulthood (21st birthday. 1982.) his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired per the Kenyan Constitution.
So he doesn’t have dual citizenship.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 11:35 AM | Link to this
Mara, thanks for that. I feel better now. :-) Do you know if the US has a similar expiration clause?
I keep hoping to hear an update on W2W’s latest Aquarian. I how everyting is good with Sunshine.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 11:52 AM | Link to this
TOJ, I think this b******* is a legal citizen, regardless of place of birth, his slut mother was a citizen, though illegally married to Barrack “the Muslim” Obama. He was pretty much scum and this slut remarried another muslim? Anybody getting a picture here? She was an atheist harlet and her poor upbring is what led to Barry doing drugs. He is tainted goods, has no moral base, and like a lot of you out there is WTW land have sliding values. He will bring us down.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 11:56 AM | Link to this
Who else was an Eloguent speaker?
Don’t sweat it, Gandalf. I was just trying to be nice to the Obama supporters. Too bad USinUK didn’t take the bait I left out for her this AM… ; > }
I would suggest that your skin is way-yonder too thin to be on a political blog
TOJ—Please be nice to Mara. She is one of the bright spots on this board. Don’t mess it up for the rest of us by driving her away.
I hadn’t seen her in about two years and let’s just say that she was a different person. Actually she was the equivalent of two different people.
I know what you mean, pal. The same thing happened to me last year when I saw my love-of-my-life ex-GF. I was shocked to see that she had gained about 60 lbs. I think that my rabbit is the ultimate cheap date. Just give her a piece of banana or some raisins, and she’s yours for the night.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 12:01 PM | Link to this
One place I don’t recommend taking a date to is a Korean restaurant. I love eating the food, but they use so much garlic that it literally oozes out of your pores for about three days. Not too sexy.
Mara—Any chance you like sushi?? Or are you strictly a cheeseburger-and-beer kind of girl?
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 12:12 PM | Link to this
I don’t “know” economics and make no pretense that I completely understand the situation we’re in, but I’m willing to listen to smart people who do.
Personally, Mara, I’ve never put much faith in what economics “experts” have to say about anything. They are about as accurate as the weather forecasters. What I rely on is common sense. Such as my reaction to…..
the Federal takeover of Citybank.
The first nail in our collective coffins will be the federal takeover of our financial institutions. The nightmare just seems to be getting worse by the day.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 12:14 PM | Link to this
Bruno! Quit beggin! It’s embarassing! :-)
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 12:20 PM | Link to this
I didn’t catch the Oscars last night
I saw a few minutes of it here and there. It looked like the movie from India, “Slumdog Millionaire” was winning a lot of awards. Sean Penn was given the Best Actor Award for his portrayal of Harvey Milk. He opened his acceptance speech by accusing the Academy Award voters of being Commie homos for picking him. Pretty funny.
Did anyone here see Slumdog Millionaire? I’ll probably wait until it comes out on video, but it looks interesting.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 12:23 PM | Link to this
Bruno! Quit beggin! It’s embarassing! :-)
When all else fails……..Beg!
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 12:35 PM | Link to this
Mara
the ‘fight the smears’ site that TOJ referenced has some very interesting info, icluding a copy of his Birth Certificate, complete with Hawaii State Seal.
I’m not a lawyer, but I think there needs to be an actual embossed seal, pressed into the document or some kind of stick-on. I just did a yahoo image search for an Hawaii birth certificate and there was only Obama’s and another one that didn’t look anything like Obama’s and it had a huge seal on it, but the seal said LOVE in the middle of it and it looked very old, so I don’t know. A lot of states require an embossed seal, but I don’t know if Hawaii does. It certainly looks like there is a space for one.
It really doesn’t matter. I thought Gandalf would get a kick out of that but it’s not like something I would expect to change anything. Obama is our president and they had two years to challenge his candidacy when the issue would not have started a Civil War, so I wouldn’t support pursuing it.
I would like to see Obama do well, but I think this extreme spending spree the democrats are going on is a horribly bad thing to do right now. As I would expect, the vast majority of the programs are going to their unions and their voting block. That really leaves out the middle class and small business owners.
I have read that 1/3 is tax cuts, but didn’t he say that it amounted to $65 a month per average household? If gas goes back up, that won’t even begin to cover even that.
And he just announced that he expects to cut the national debt by 1/2 by 2013. Do you really think that can be done by raising government spending and lowering taxes?
This is from Reuters from just now:
Bank Doubts Drag Wall Street Down- Reuters
U.S. stocks fell on Monday due to uncertainty about the likely success of the government’s latest bid to shore up beleaguered banks, including Citigroup, and a drop in technology shares pulled indexes lower.
My ex is a fuil fledged broker. I helped her study to get her Series 7. She is freaking out right now. You cannot walk into a government and change it overnight from capitalism to socialism without causing major problems. If the democrats don’t STOP THIS right now, we will be in a full blown depression. They are absolutely destroying the value of the dollar and if they don’t do SOMETHING QUICK that will give Wall Street some little bit of hope, we are screwed. And the best thing they could do is go for a week without spending another 100 billion.
STOP SPENDING MONEY THAT WE DON’T HAVE.
Have you guys seen what this is going to cost the average American home? And we still don’t have Universal Health Insurance. We are not getting anything from this and it is going to cost you and Gale and AW and everybody in this blog thousands and thousands of dollars.
I cannot understand why anyone that pays taxes and pays their mortgage would support this.
If you have stuck with me and read this whole thing, i really appreciate it. I’m sure you don’t agree but I appreciate you hearing me out.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 12:39 PM | Link to this
Gandalf
Be cool about Ann Dunham. I have known lots of Ann Dunhams in my day and there is nothing wrong with a flower child.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 12:50 PM | Link to this
bruno
I was shocked to see that she had gained about 60 lbs.
I think this woman’s leg had gained 60 lbs. When she told me that her shadow once killed a dog . . badoom_ching. Sorry. Show business is my life.
It was sad. And she had been such a babe. But she was always dating someone. When I talked to her on the phone, i could tell she was a different person And that was really the problem. She just seemed very sad about her life. And that was before the movie.
I had a nice time and it was fun catching up, but that much weight just changes a person.
By Mara
February 23, 2009 12:53 PM | Link to this
Bruno - sushi? I have to be honest and admit that I’ve never tried sushi. Mostly because I associate it with fish, and I can’t stand the taste of fish. I’ve tried and tried to find some way to eat the stuff because I know it’s supposed to be good for me, but yuck! Sole, salmon, cod, even tuna. It all taste gross. Really gross. The only type I’ve had that didn’t make my throat immediately close up was shark. And even then I had to hold my breath and chew really fast.
I like most shellfish though. It’s weird.
If anybody knows how to eradicate the actual taste of fish from fish, I’ll give it a try…
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 12:53 PM | Link to this
My ex is a fuil fledged broker.
If you talk to your ex in the next day or so, TOJ, ask her opinion about Parker Drilling (PKD). Their stock is in a free-fall right now ($1.48 at last check), but I think that they are a good company, and am strongly considering buying a large chunk of it soon. My biggest concern is that the CEO and upper management all sold off some major shares in December, which is usually a bad sign. If it comes back to anywhere near its normal value by summer, however, it could be a huge winner. I need to find a way to make a quick 20 grand or so.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 12:59 PM | Link to this
Bruno
OK, Here”s my show business joke, and then I have to work.
Guy takes his daughter to the circus. Soon he is bored with the show so he decides to take a walk. So he walks behind the main tent and there was an old man who was shoveling from this huge pile of elephant dung and putting into the back of a truck.
So the guy walks up and says, interesting job. The old man stops shoveling and says: I really hate this job. I’m getting old. My back is breaking. I go home every night smelling like elephant dung, I can’t get the smell off, no matter how many showers I take and the worst part is that every day when i come to work, there’s another huge pile of elephant dung waiting for me.
So the first guys says, If you hate it this much, why don’t you quit?
The old man says “What? And get out of show business?”
Badoom-ching. We’ll be here all week. Tip your waiters and bartenders.
You guys have a good day. Even you, Mara.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 1:07 PM | Link to this
And even then I had to hold my breath and chew really fast.
Hahaha—Not much of a recommendation. You had better steer clear of Andrew Zimmern’s “Bizzare Foods” on the Travel Channel, then.
I like most shellfish though. It’s weird.
Okay, you’re back in my good graces.
If anybody knows how to eradicate the actual taste of fish from fish, I’ll give it a try…
Too funny. You’re a hoot, Mara.
Out of curiosity, did your girlfriend who was going to FunForSingles ever meet someone?? I signed up, but never went to any of the events since I met someone literally within days of sending my money in. I think that I’m paid up through May, so may still try it.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 1:22 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I’ll ask my ex about the stock. Sounds reasonable.
Mara
Lots of Sushi is shell fish or just vegetables and rice. It doesn’t have to be raw fish. My daughter has the same problem. She hates fish, but she loves Sushi. She just learned what she liked. If you go to a good buffet with someone who knows about Sushi, i’ll bet that you will like it. If you order, try a spider roll. It’s spider crab and it is really good.
Ru-Sans is pretty good and there is a place on Buford Hwy called Toyotaya (I think) that used to be great. I don’t live in that area any more so I haven’t been back for years.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 1:27 PM | Link to this
Bruno, take her to Red Lobster and then to Vegas for the quickie ceromony! I must admit I have begged a few times, just never in a public forum!
TOJ, SHE is who brought this Psychopath into our midst, SHE is the vessel that brought us this madman! No slack for slutty Stanley (her name isn’t Ann anymore than the Bastage son’s name is Obama! The marraige was illegal, he (Barrack Sr.) was already married! So no marraige the BASTAGE’s name should be Barry Dunham, bastage if Stanley and Barrack),,sorry he is a citizen, just one of questionable heritage. Stanley didn’t want to raise him SO SHE GAVE HIM UP! How many of you woman would do that? Please don’t defend this disgusting slut!
By Gale
February 23, 2009 1:29 PM | Link to this
Hey Bruno, does this mean the thing with the Nigerian is over? Gandalf is right, you are trying too hard.
Mara, I am the opposite. I never met a fish that tasted too fishy. Out of curiosity, is it the taste or the texture?
By Mara
February 23, 2009 1:36 PM | Link to this
TOJ - I’m sure you don’t agree but I appreciate you hearing me out.
I hope it doesn’t shock you too much when I actually agree with SOME of what you wrote. The ‘quit spending money we don’t have’ part especially. Heck, I’ve been saying that for the last seven years! Not just because I’m uneasy about Communist China holding most of our debt, but also because too much of that spending was going out of country, leaving us with nothing to show for it.
One reason that I’m giving my provisional support of Obama’s spending (and tax cut) package is because so much of it will be on ‘home improvement’ kind of programs. As y’all know, I’ve also long had an issue with the state of our infrastructure. Crumbling roads and bridges, out-of-date power grids, obsolete earthen dams washing away during rainstorms…it’s rediculous that a first-world country would be in this situation.
didn’t he say that it amounted to $65 a month per average household?
I’m sure that there are items in the package that I didn’t see or didn’t make note of, but as far as I know the $65 per month is just the reduction in payroll taxes being withheld from people’s checks. It doesn’t include the individual tax credits that will be doled out over the coming year, child tax credits of some sort for parents, and a reduction in the AMT. There are also tax credits for buying a new house or new car.
for businesses it contains tax breaks for small businesses that will allow them to write off current losses against previous tax years for up to five years, instead of the current two years as well as a suspension of certain unemployment benefits and some tax breaks for consumers…which one assumes the business can use to lure costomers in.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this
Hey Bruno, does this mean the thing with the Nigerian is over?
No, still going strong. I saw her this weekend. I did end up buying her two tires for her car, though, when I noticed the steel belts were showing through. While at the tire store, I asked her when was the last time she had the oil changed, and she gave me one of theose “Huh?” looks. So I was on the hook for an oil change as well.
Gandalf is right, you are trying too hard.
That’s always been my downfall, Gale, when it comes to dating. One thing I like about my new lady friend is that I feel no pressure when I’m with her at all. She’s happy just walking around a park holding hands. We haven’t had anything even approaching an argument yet. Her Daddy trained her well. (ducking for cover now).
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this
Mara, I am the opposite. I never met a fish that tasted too fishy. Out of curiosity, is it the taste or the texture?
Surprisingly, raw fish has much less of a “fishy” taste than cooked fish does. I think that it has to do with the denaturing of the proteins during the cooking process whereby sulphur is released from the amino acids. My favorite type of sushi, sea urchin, has a very fishy taste, however. You can almost feel the ocean slap you in the face when you take a big bite of uni (sea urchin).
By Mara
February 23, 2009 2:00 PM | Link to this
Gale - Out of curiosity, is it the taste or the texture?
definitley the taste. (shudder) thought it could be the texture too. I’ve never actually had it in my mouth long enough to make a comparative assessment (okay, now that sounded…dirty…didn’t it?!) LOL!
Bruno - did your girlfriend who was going to FunForSingles ever meet someone
she went out on a couple dates, but I don’t think she’s really looking for anything long term right now. She’s started taking some graphic design classes and between that, her work, her friends, and the groups/clubs she’s a member of, I just don’t see how she’d have time to cultivate a relationship. Heck, I hardly ever see her anymore. Nowdays, it’s usually a phone call or text while she’s enroute somewhere else. :^(
TOJ - thanks for the recommend on the sushi joint. I may even try it one of these days
By AW
February 23, 2009 2:06 PM | Link to this
I am counting my blessings, and blessings are everywhere!! We must try to focus on the positive in these difficult times.
Today I am thankful that there are men among us who tell us how they truly feel and what they actually DO with their women. Yes, the first instinct is to recoil in revulsion at the lack of chivalry it requires to boast, brag, judge, and gossip openly. And the graphic details are often too much. (Ewwww!) But wait! There is value in such forthright honesty! (What I REALLY needed today was not an afternoon granola snack, but a clear image of what would happen, and how I would rightfully be judged, if I were to actually eat the granola snack and balloon to an unsightly, inexcusable 125 pounds!) Thank you, Gentlemen, for blessing us with a taste of reality today. You really are TOO kind!!!
Ladies, I think it’s time for some no-calorie herbal tea. Life is good!
By Mara
February 23, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this
Looks like Obama’s next target is entitlement reform. It sounds like he wants to tackle the insolvency of the big three entitlement programs: Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
I think he’ll be more likly to make progress on it than would any Republican, simply because everybody knows Republicans have always hated the safety net and would like nothing better than to shred it completely. That’s something that people won’t be afraid of Obama doing, so his suggestions will likely get a better hearing than privatizing Social Security did.
more tomorrow <>
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 2:09 PM | Link to this
Gale, you know what they say, if it smells like fish eat all you wish….
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 2:09 PM | Link to this
Mara
I need to work so I’m sorry this is so short.
i think it would have been better to dole out the programs, but as usual. lots of bad stuff got hung on lots of good stuff. I just hired my first real employees, so the breaks won’t help me.
It just seems like the worst things that Washington does: they just did in a very big way.
Like I said, I have got to work. And PLEASE try Sushi. I first gave my daughter Sushi when she was just 7 (it was a California Roll, all veggies) and she was so proud that she had eaten Sushi. We made a little film about it. I’ve got a bunch of films that we made about her. When she had her adenoids removed we made a film that was shown in her class at school. I really miss her being a little kid.
Gandalf
Whatever works for you, but I’ve got a thing for female flower children. At least she had enough sense to turn him over to her parents who were able to raise him in HAWAII. I don’t think that Obama derangement syndrome is any more justified than Bush derangement syndrome. I think you have good points, and I enjoy reading your posts, but I can’t get behind dissing Ann Dunham.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 2:12 PM | Link to this
I never tried sea urchin. Sushi is expensive enough that I usually stick with stuff I know: squid, octopus, salmon, tuna, eel. Spider roll is a good choice for novices, or almost anything they call California roll.
You are too easy, Bruno. New tires? What, did you tattoo “easy money” on your forehead?
By Gandalf, the White!
February 23, 2009 2:14 PM | Link to this
TOJ, we can’t agree on everything, I know she is the reason we have this OBOMANATION in the this country at this time.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 2:22 PM | Link to this
AW
Sweetie, you eat all you want. And of course the question is: how many really fat guys have you dated? I don’t mean a little pudgy, I’m talking about 100 lbs overweight.
Women are at least as bad as men, and if it makes you fell any better, I haven’t had hair on top of my head for 20 years. Do you really want to discuss how most women feel about bald men? this is why I am such a lunatic about staying in shape. If you are bald and fat … well, you know.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this
Looks like Obama’s next target is entitlement reform. It sounds like he wants to tackle the insolvency of the big three entitlement programs: Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
The long-term answer to “fixing” Social Security is fairly simple: Stop mixing the designated SS funds in with the general federal funds. The only plausible short-term solution at this point to restore the solvency of SS and Medicare will be to raise the minimum age requirement for participation. I believe that the SS minimum age for my generation is already scheduled to rise to 67 in order to receive full benefits.
thanks for the recommend on the sushi joint. I may even try it one of these days
Although most sushi “beginners” usually start off with a California roll (crab meat), I always start newbies off with eel. It is cooked, and has a sweet plum sauce smeared on it,
Thank you, Gentlemen, for blessing us with a taste of reality today.
Anything for you, AW. Big, wet doggy smooch to you.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 2:36 PM | Link to this
I never tried sea urchin. Sushi is expensive enough that I usually stick with stuff I know: squid, octopus, salmon, tuna, eel.
All good choices, Gale. The downside of uni is the price, now at $4 per piece or more, and of course $1 extra for the raw quail egg on top. I’m surprised not to see yellowtail on your list. Good yellowtail makes your mouth water.
You are too easy, Bruno. New tires? What, did you tattoo “easy money” on your forehead?
No, S-U-C-K-E-R. Actually, the tires were unsafe, and I didn’t want her to have a blowout. Despite only making minimum wage, she has done her best to contributing financially, diffferently from the vast, vast majority of women I have dated.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
If women really didn’t like bald men, would so many young men shave their heads? I don’t mind bald men, but I really don’t like the shaved head look. Of course, I also like facial hair on men. That said, I prefer hair to bald. But you really don’t have any control over bald. You do have some control over fat.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 2:54 PM | Link to this
Yellowtail for sure, Bruno. It does melt in the mouth.
By AW
February 23, 2009 2:55 PM | Link to this
TOJ, I can’t speak for other women, but I’ve adored several men on the meaty side. (One was 6’4” 280, and a few more doubled my own weight.) My concern about weight as we get older has more to do with health and stamina than anything else. As for balding, I concur with the conventional wisdom re: the virility of the smoothly domed. (Women losing their hair are treated much less kindly.)
I am aware, though, of the shallowness of our society. More and more of my peers are discussing collagen injections, botox, and lipo — something that’s absurdly common these days — as if these are a normal part of aging. It’s as if they think their lives are over if shallow men don’t call them “hot” anymore.
I guess I’m old school. If a man is only into me for the polished-up packaging, then it’s not real, won’t last, and why should I give a darn?
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this
Gale
But you really don’t have any control over bald. You do have some control over fat
Bingo. Most women that are old enough to date just appreciate the fact that I stay in shape. But the hair thing is huge. I have a buddy that has thick dark hair and he actually keeps it trimmed just to the point that he “needs a haircut” to give him that “rebel in the board room” look. He was never in shape … not obese, but always had a gut, He mistreats women, when he was married, he constantly screwed around on her, but they didn’t care. They loved that hair.
I wore a rug for a little while, but unless a guy is willing to replace the thing every few months, they just look horrible. They are also incredibly expensive: about 3 to 5 grand a shot. Rogaine came along much too late so I and 65% of the male population had very few options.
At this point, I just consider it a character test for the woman i date. LOL.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this
They are also incredibly expensive: about 3 to 5 grand a shot.
My former business partner had the surgery done where they take plugs of hair from the sides and replant them on top. It actually looked decent. It was extremely expensive, though, and required multiple sessions.
Call me shallow all day long, but a woman’s looks are important to me, although in the long run it’s personality which is the deciding factor.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 3:27 PM | Link to this
Bruno, have you ever had a long-lasting relationship with a woman who was not “stunning”? I think when there is a personality connection, one finds attractive what might not have otherwise caught the attention. To get there, you have to move past that initial “not attractive” reaction.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 3:28 PM | Link to this
AW
280 at 6’4” is not obese. That’s just a big guy.
I’m glad that women think that bald guys have something going on, wink, wink. But the reality is that sanity in people my age is a good thing and that seems to be the hardest thing to find. People who take care of themselves seem to be a bit more sane than people who don’t.
But AW, this woman had a hard time going through doors. I’ll bet she was close to 300 lbs. We went to a small gathering before going to eat and then coming here and she really had a hard time threading through the party. And she used to look really nice. She was never skinny, but she was always happy and always had such a positive attitude. It was heart breaking to see her like that.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 3:42 PM | Link to this
Bruno, have you ever had a long-lasting relationship with a woman who was not “stunning”? I think when there is a personality connection, one finds attractive what might not have otherwise caught the attention. To get there, you have to move past that initial “not attractive” reaction.
I would say that my longest-lasting relationships were with women who were “very attractive”, although their warm personalities did make up a large part of their attractiveness, IMO. I’ve been “lucky” enough to date a few stunners, but there were always major problems from the start. I agree with you that over time, our pereption of someone does change as their souls radiate outward, but if I’m not physically attracted to someone, I’ve never been able to move past the platonic phase of the friendship.
By Gale
February 23, 2009 3:43 PM | Link to this
I gotta agree, TOJ, 300 is way too much weight for anyone not a professional football player, Sumo, something like that. The sad thing is how much those folks are willing to compromise their health. I don’t buy the -I can be fat and healthy too- argument. That much extra weight is a burden on your body.
By Bruno
February 23, 2009 3:57 PM | Link to this
*The sad thing is how much those folks are willing to compromise their health. I don’t buy the -I can be fat and healthy too- argument. That much extra weight is a burden on your body. *.
I’m sure that you’re well aware that there are usually psychological issues going on with very obese people, Gale, such that health considerations which may be a motivator to you or me hold no sway with them. One of the more interesting theories I’ve heard regarding overeating is that food temporarily increases the serotonin levels in our brains, making a depressed person feel a little better. But because the “buzz” wears off quickly, another “fix” is needed within minutes.
By AW
February 23, 2009 4:04 PM | Link to this
280 at 6’4” is a big guy — encased in fat, ala many former linebackers. It does look better if it sits on a muscular frame, though, I’ll give you that.
I’m touched that you’re heartbroken over this woman’s pain, but (this is just conjecture, of course) suspecting that people are always judging her and blabbing ugly things behind her back the minute she leaves the room may be one of the factors in her slide from “always happy” to this heartbreaking state.
I’ve struggled too, as most women have, but that’s not what the truly obese are dealing with. Their brain signals are SNAFU, never registering “full” no matter how much they eat. (Try to imagine what that feels like… always hungry, never sated, never free of gnawing hunger.) This spirals into self-loathing because people seem to think it’s okay to be cruel, IMO, which leads to more eating to try to fill the empty space. So you weren’t feeling romantic toward her… SO WHAT? Don’t take her to the prom then, but why the need to sneer? You can’t afford a few snacks for a friend while you depress the heck out of them with Schindler’s List? If it were a guy friend, would it even be an issue?
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 4:28 PM | Link to this
AW
I understand what you are saying and i have a bad habit of always making jokes, but I was very nice to her. This was supposed to be a date and when I saw her, i knew it was going to be an awkward night. I’m sure she is feeling very bad about herself.
I took her to a nice restaurant, but I didn’t tell her that I also use that place for a lot of business so I have been in there with lots of clients, some of which were rather large and/or unattractive women. She said that it was nice of me to take her to a nice restaurant where I obviously knew a lot of people. She wanted to go to my place and I’m pretty sure because she was ashamed of how she looked, (or she was ashamed of being with the BALD guy LOL.)
She loved the movie and so do I, so we had a good night, but she did almost clean out my fridge and she had just eaten a ton of food at the restaurant. I had half an Angel Food cake that had been in there for a month. It’s gone. Half a cake. It took me this long to eat half of it and she put the rest away while I wasn’t looking. I don’t care about the cake, but that is sad.
That’s something else, I rarely eat meat and I am full very quickly so I spent most of the time in the restaurant watching her eat. The whole night was just very awkward until we got to my place. It is a bad, sad situation.
Gale
Her skin was cold. I mean really cold. That’s because fat tissue doesn’t carry very much blood and it leaves the skin very cold. The Ukrainian woman I dated for so long was skinny and muscular and sleeping with her was like sleeping beside a blast furnace.
By The Other jack
February 23, 2009 4:31 PM | Link to this
Bruno
Legs are my weakness. A nice set of gams will make up for a lot. But I’m sure you will agree that it is all about the way a woman carries herself. A good kisser is always a plus.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 8:16 AM | Link to this
Hi irregulars!!
Hope everyone is having a good week!! sorry haven’t been around - work is crazy-busy (fortunately in a good way, not in a hair-on-fire kind of way)
anyhoo … saw a great article in Salon today - thought it was something we could ALL agree on, Aquarians and non-Aquarians alike (not to mention, the Ds and Rs):
The cheese-and-pepperoni stimulus
“But amid the colossal corpses strewn on the corporate battlefield, a ragtag army of small businesses soldiers on: the pizza industry, 76,355 restaurants strong across America.”
snip
“The average pizzeria employs an entire family tree — almost 70 percent have more than 10 employees — and is forgiving of those who might have dozed through algebra I, algebra II, world history and intro to programming. There’s the counterperson (Prerequisites: “a positive, friendly attitude” and “good cash-handling skills.” Your little sister Lara?). “What’ll it be?” “A slice.” “Two dollars, please.” Behind her, the kitchen staff (“Fun to work with! Current food handler’s license!” Maybe cousins Ted and Wheezie?) mixes, kneads, forms and tosses. The twirling skin whizzes back and forth, almost grazing the fluorescent lights. In the background, the owner (“Leadership and management skills are paramount” — definitely Uncle Tony) and the delivery boy (“No more than two moving violations in the past 36 months” — that would be you!) argue. The owner throws up his hands; the delivery boy walks out. The owner’s wife (“Motivated self-starter,” “Ability to remain levelheaded”) bustles over. She throws up her hands. The delivery boy walks back in. The counterperson slides your slice onto a paper plate. Heaven.”
the whole article is a treat (except, now I have a HUGE craving for a cheese-n-mushroom)
http:// www.salon.com/ mwt/food/eatdrink/ 2009/02/24/pepperonipizza/
I’ll try to pop back in if I can …
later taters!!!
TOJ - just for you — third image from the bottom
http:// www.solarnavigator.net/ history/winston_churchill.htm
By Gale
February 24, 2009 8:34 AM | Link to this
mmmmmmmmmmmmm, pizza! Sigh, not on the diet.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 9:13 AM | Link to this
USinUK
LOL
Yes. Scissors does beat paper. Hope you are doing well.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 24, 2009 9:26 AM | Link to this
Rock Beats Paper, when thrown!
By Mara
February 24, 2009 9:47 AM | Link to this
rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock!
Scissors cut paper.
Paper covers rock.
Rock crushes lizard.
Lizard poisons Spock.
Spock smashes scissors.
Scissors decapitate lizard.
Lizard eats paper.
Paper disproves Spock.
Spock vaporizes rock.
Rock crushes scissors.
ROLF! Sorry, this episode of Big Bang Theory was on last night…yes, I watched it. :^)
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 10:09 AM | Link to this
USinUK
When I first moved here, I got a job as an editor on second shift. The only place that would deliver was a pizza joint. Without fail, when the pizza would arrive, the clients would disappear and I would keep working until I could get to a stopping point. So I got the nasty pieces left in those greasy, nasty boxes. And the pieces were never in their original places in that nasty box, so somebody had already handled my dinner and I never saw any of them wash up before going to the break room to eat.
To this day, I cannot eat pizza. Even the smell makes me a little sick.
Damn democrats. (I haven’t really figured out the link between Democrats and cold greazy, nasty pizza, but it has to be in there somewhere.)
By chuck
February 24, 2009 10:22 AM | Link to this
Kimberly
They think we don’t remember that THEY enabled dumping billions of unaudited present and future tax dollars into private coffers in Iraq — money we’ll never see again, and never see the benefits of! (No justice for Bin Laden, though….)
At least the money spent in Iraq fulfilled an actual FUNCTION of the Federal Government, according to the Constitution, which you are always willing to quote in a “BILL OF RIGHTS” CONTEXT, but not so much when it comes to the role of the Federal government and more importantly, THE LIMITS ON THE POWERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Now I can definitely agree with you on SOME of the funds expended in Iraq. I don’t think we should be spending so much money on infrastructure over there, except that which protects our troops of course. Those first couple of years we should have been selling that oil to pay for infrastructure costs.
As for your comment on Bin Laden, GIVE IT A FREAKIN’ REST ALREADY!!!
We had boots on the ground going after Bin Laden within 3 weeks of 9/11. If we knew where he was he would be DEAD right now. I’m sure the President would have been glad to hear from you if you knew something he didn’t know.
As for the topic, OF COURSE we went to fast on the so-called stimulus package. Had we taken this up deliberatively, the outcry from the American people would have prevented its passing. The democrats hatched this plan before the election. The bill is loaded with garbage that has nothing to do with stimulating the economy and EVERYTHING to do with advancing the liberal social agenda that won’t stand up in the light of day because the American people don’t want it.
At least a third of the American people are stupid and another third are indifferent. I don’t know how some of these people can even find their way out of bed in the morning. Could someone please answer this question for me? What is going to happen when rich people get tired of being squeezed by ever more punitive tax policies?
Here’s another question: What is going to happen in the out years of this Bill?
Let me answer them for you. First, rich people are going to take their money and their INVESTMENTS off shore. I KNOW I WOULD. They are going to hide as many assets as they can and the deep pockets are going to disappear. THEN WHAT?
Second, when we no longer have any “rich people” to tax, the government will begin monetizing the debt. That will lead to SERIOUS INFLATION…economy killing inflation. I almost peed in my pants laughing at Obama calling a “FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY CONFERENCE” yesterday. I don’t know how he can Even say the words fiscal responsibility after signing that bill.
By chuck
February 24, 2009 10:32 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, I have to disagree with this statement:
Doing what your constituents want is part of being elected.
Doing what is BEST FOR AMERICA is what they should ALL be doing. If they had a conscience, this bill would not have gotten any votes except for the most liberal congressmen. Senators and representatives are elected based on what they tell their constituents they are GOING to do. I can’t imagine that the 2 senators from Maine promised to run the economy the rest of the way into the ground with wasteful spending and long-term inflationary policies.
By Kettle
February 24, 2009 10:41 AM | Link to this
I don’t know how he can Even say the words fiscal responsibility
(brrrriiingg. brrrrring. brrrring.) Hello, chuck? Chuck? Hi, this is Kettle. I’m afraid that Pot and I have some news for you…
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
Mara -
Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock is brilliant - I’m SO telling the Mister!
btw - didn’t you say you occasionally watch BBCAmerica?? If the show Being Human airs there, WATCH IT!! It is one of the cleverest shows I’ve seen in ages (the premise: a vampire, a werewolf and a ghost are roommates, just trying to live normal lives) - it’s a drama with funny moments.
TOJ
Pizza. Piping hot or cold out of the fridge. Never in between. YUK is right. However, if you ever get a wild hair, Everybody’s Pizza in Va Highlands was my favorite … (sadly, the Mellow Mushroom got bought and corporate-ized, so it’s not the same as it was when I was a young’un)
anyhoo, saw the rock/paper/scissors thing yesterday in a search for something else - you were the first person I thought would appreciate it!
By chuck
February 24, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
I openly admitted that I do not have the knowledge of economics to comprehend whether this stimulus bill is the right thing going forward or not. And based convos with people I know who DO have extensive economic understanding, no one REALLY does.
If the last part of this statement is TRUE, the aren’t you really agreeing with Shaunti that we moved too fast? Shouldn’t we have waited until WE DID KNOW WHAT TO DO? I would be the last to say that the Republican congress is BLAMELESS in this mess, but to then turn around and say that because the Republicans messed up, the democrats get a free shot to do whatever they want to whether it has a chance of working or not, is EVEN WORSE. Aren’t we supposed to LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES?!?!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 24, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
Barry now says we have to watch our spending. He is a gigantic maroon and you peoples voted for him! It is am embarassing day to be an Qmerican. For the first time in my adult life I pity that stupid man born out of wedlock who married Ugly Michelle. What will he do when some one calls him out? Go outside and have a smoke? Or Nuke them? Who knows with a SELF ADMITTED drug user! SO SAD TO BE AN AMERICAN RIGHT NOW, THE HOUR OF OUR DEMISE IS NEAR.
By American Woman
February 24, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
Chuck, first I’ll apologize for being so verbose. Brevity is a virtue I sometimes forget. Second, (benefit of the doubt today) I think your heart (tiny though it may be) is in the right vicinity.
I stipulate that history will reveal that the government (“We” is N/A, since nobody consulted me…) moved too quickly on the stim, and, given more time and oversight, a more sensible bill could have been written. Nevertheless, financial minds of all political leanings have said that something HAD to be done immediately or things would be much worse. It’s not just “liberals” screaming for “handouts.” Hard-core capitalists admit that our system was/is falling like a rock and that parachutes & those bouncy things on the ground are essential to saving lives. Reality: some of the stim provisions will likely work well, and others will likely blow chunks. Let’s hope lessons will be learned, Teacher.
Speaking of lessons, if cutting taxes for the top income bracket is good for the economy, how come ours is in the crapper? If the Republican ideas for balancing the budget and generating jobs actually work, how come they didn’t?
You said, “What is going to happen when rich people get tired of being squeezed by ever more punitive tax policies?” Good question!
I have questions too: When are the rich people going to stimulate the economy with the Bush tax cuts they received? Why weren’t the tax-cut funds they got in the last decade reinvested in America? Why did American corporations receiving tax cuts AND no-bid, cost-plus contracts from our government move their HQs overseas instead of putting people to work HERE? Why do those who’ve benefitted the most from being Americans stash their money away in Switzerland and the Caymans? Don’t they LOVE America too? Why do they hate the land that afforded them the opportunity to be so rich?
As for OSAMA BIN LADEN: Um, don’t tell me how to feel about that, okay? You said, “We had boots on the ground going after Bin Laden within 3 weeks of 9/11.” Yet those boots relocated to Iraq before the objective was complete.
“If we knew where he was he would be DEAD right now.” What you’re saying makes sense, but what actually HAPPENED does not. There were witnesses at Tora Bora whose accounts differ from the official ones. I wasn’t there, but then, neither were you, so don’t tell me what to think, okay? HE IS STILL FREE, and frankly, I don’t buy the premise that our top military and intelligence personnel aren’t capable of finding him.
“I’m sure the President would have been glad to hear from you if you knew something he didn’t know.” Actually, it was SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN who went on TV numerous times last year claiming to know exactly how to “get Bin Laden.” Remember? He was SO SURE! I think the President would like for John McCain to tell him. I’m just a working mom, and not really schooled in covert ops.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 11:07 AM | Link to this
USinUK
i’ve copied that into my funny pics folder.
I hate to admit it, but Pizza Hut has some great dishes now. Their wings are pretty good and they now have several different pasta dishes that they sell as a family serving for about 13 bucks.
Pizza Hut. Who would have thunk it?
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 11:20 AM | Link to this
fwiw:
Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) — Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said the U.S. economy is in a “severe” contraction, and warned the recession may last into 2010 unless policy makers can stabilize the financial system.
“If actions taken by the administration, the Congress, and the Federal Reserve are successful in restoring some measure of financial stability — and only if that is the case, in my view - - there is a reasonable prospect that the current recession will end in 2009 and that 2010 will be a year of recovery,” Bernanke said in remarks to the Senate Banking Committee in Washington.
http:// www.bloomberg.com/ apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aRI6ZCpsKtMI&refer=economy
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 11:20 AM | Link to this
USinUK
BTW. None of the dislike of Pizza applied to Rocky’s on Peachtree. After Bob (The owner, great friend) killed himself because he found that he had cancer, his family sold the place to Mellow Mushroom, but I just couldn’t bring myself to go in there. Bob was a great guy. We would bring the kids in and he would always make them both feel very important. There was a picture of me and Bob and a couple of other friends on the wall and the kids loved that.
Atlanta lost a real character when they lost Bob Russo. Most people called him Rocky, but he named the restaurant after his Dad who had ran an Italian Restaurant in New York that catered to the mafia.
By chuck
February 24, 2009 11:22 AM | Link to this
Bruno
As for the peanut plant in Blakely, it is my understanding that the plant management KNEW that their products were tainted, but decided to ship them anyway. As such, they will likely face criminal prosecution, in the same way that the managers of Enron were vigorously prosecuted, and in the same way that Madoff will face vigorous prosecution.
Of course you are absolutely RIGHT. Neither of these was a problem of deregulation, but rather a problem of CRIMINALITY. Kimberly wants a world of TOTAL PERSONAL FREEDOM, but one in which EVERY POSSIBLE ACT of a dishonest person can be predicted and prevented. The two are mutually exclusive. You can’t have it both ways. You either have a “big brother” police state or you have freedom.
One of the major differences between liberals and conservatives is stereotypically true; liberals legislate from the heart without thinking and conservatives legislate from the head without feeling. As a matter of government, I would rather the government act WITHOUT feeling and follow the law. I am of the opinion that if you let people have freedom WITHIN THE LAW, then things work better. Along with that, you have to have PENALTIES so stiff that people will try to avoid breaking those laws. My solution to Blakely is to take those executives to CRIMINAL COURT. If they are found guilty, put them to death for murder and take EVERYTHING they own and distribute it to the victims.
If there was a real threat of swift justice for law breakers, they would not commit as many crimes.
They are on the other hand, perfectly willing to forgive the transgressions of the poor and minorities when THEY break the law, because it is society’s fault, but let some rich person break the law and it’s time to throw the book. Most of us as conservatives would rather throw the book at EVERYBODY that breaks the law, INCLUDING the rich.
By Mara
February 24, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
chuck - Shouldn’t we have waited until WE DID KNOW WHAT TO DO?
like it or not, the commonly held belief among economists is that the crisis was expanding so quickly and growing so pervasive that the longer we waited to do something the more difficult and less helpful that ‘something’ would be.
this article, “Time Is Of Essence On Financial Crisis, Economists Agree”, is a good overview of the views at the time - freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=20111
Certainly we can argue about whether “X” would have been better than “Y” or say the more of “A” is better than having “B” at all…but you are one of the very few who thinks the government should have sat on its hands until an all-encompassing solution presented itself all wrapped up with guarantees of success.
You seem to think that sooner or later, had we waited, we would eventually know exactly what recipe of stimulus would work…but that’s just wishful thinking. Since nobody knows what’s going to happen tomorrow, nobody can actually say what will work. All we can do is push forward with what we THINK will work and hope for the best.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 11:31 AM | Link to this
Really strong documentary about Detroit.
http:// vimeo.com/2371774
The film maker is young and it is not really polished, but the images are haunting. Detroit is almost post-apocalyptic. Deserted downtown streets that have just a few zombie-like homeless people shuffling around. USinUK, I think you would like this. It takes 26 minutes, so don’t start watching it unless you have the time because you will get sucked in.
This is not political or antii-union. It just shows what Detroit, one of our major industrial cities has become.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 11:38 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
sorry to hear about your friend - what a horrible thing for him and his fam.
re: Pizza Smut - “Their wings are pretty good”
the best wings I’ve had in Atlanta were 1) Aunt Charlie’s in Buckhead (worked there in college - sadly, it is no more), 2) Manuel’s Tavern and 3) $3 Cafe. Never managed to find good wings when I lived in DC (Hawk and Dove actually put bbq sauce on them - how wrong is THAT?!). Didn’t even bother trying when I was in Hfd - although, the best cheeseburgers I’ve had north of the M-D were at the Wood-n-Tap in Hfd. O. M. G. them’s were some good burgers.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 11:46 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“This is not political or antii-union. It just shows what Detroit, one of our major industrial cities has become.”
have you ever been?? I went for work once back in 1996 - MAN, what a city. I’ll bet that, during the 1950s and 1960s it was an amazing place to live and grow up - the art deco architecture was absolutely gorgeous. It just kills me what years of Devil’s Night did to the place - any empty building was fair game for kids playing with lighters.
if you ever get to go, check out the Fisher Building - pictures don’t do it justice.
By American Woman
February 24, 2009 11:50 AM | Link to this
Chuck, you just used stereotypes and media talking points to FALSELY characterize my positions and feelings in about five different places. The straw-man technique is fundamentally dishonest at every application. Perhaps you didn’t realize, and I’m sure you didn’t mean it, so I forgive you.
BTW, how do you propose enforcing laws and regulations without personnel? Yes, the Peanut Exec will likely face charges, as he should. But that’s too late for the people who died, and it doesn’t preserve jobs or Georgia’s major export. PREVENTIVE actions, in retrospect, seem more logical.
Ask any government inspector or enforcement official, and they’ll tell you their case loads are too large to be handled effeciently. From USDA to DFCS, to border patrol agents and cargo inspectors at our ports — too much to do, too few people to do it. That’s where allotting bigger budgets and better human resource management would be a GOOD thing. I think we have all the proof we need that businesses cannot simply be trusted to do the right thing when profit is involved. Government shouldn’t solve every problem, you’re right, but workplace and food-safety inspection is a valid application of our tax dollars, IMO. As is oversight of the money changers.
BTW, Madoff was reported YEARS ago, and SEC officials did not have or make time to persue it. If YOUR retiremeint money was all gone while he sits in his penthouse, I think you’d be a mite ticked off.
(Also BTW, I’d respect your desire to remain more anonymous if that’s what you wanted. Golden rule and all, but that’s just me I guess.)
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 11:56 AM | Link to this
Mara -
your 11:26 post - VERY well said
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 12:02 PM | Link to this
I’m sick, guys. I openend an etrade account this am, and they wouldn’t let me buy the stock I’ve been tracking (Parker Drilling) because it is less than $10 per share. I have to wait 7 days. The price went up from $1.28 per share to $1.75 while I was trying to click around. ; > {{{{{
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this
FFFFFFFFFFFF——————-KKKKKKKKKKKKKK
I bet that F-ing thing will go through the roof today.
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 12:07 PM | Link to this
I should have just gone to Schwab yesterday in person. FFFFFF__KKKK.
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 12:09 PM | Link to this
I’m sick. I’ll catch you guys in a few days.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 12:14 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
Feb 24 (Reuters) - Parker Drilling Co (PKD.N) reported better-than-expected quarterly profit as strength in international drilling, project management and engineering services and rental tools segments offset the weakness in the U.S. drilling division.
Excluding items, net income for the fourth quarter was $29.9 million, or 27 cents a share, compared with $25.9 million, or 23 cents a share, in the year-ago quarter.
Fourth-quarter results included a non-cash charge of 69 cents a share, as it eliminated all goodwill associated with its acquisition of a Gulf of Mexico barge drilling business.
they’re still holding at 1.75/share
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 12:19 PM | Link to this
they’re still holding at 1.75/share
Maybe they peaked for the day, but I’m sick.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 12:24 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“Maybe they peaked for the day, but I’m sick.”
sorry for the situ - could be worse - you could hold hundreds of shares and be watching them tank while being unable to trade.
(it’s not much, but it’s all I got)
;-)
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 12:38 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I asked my ex about your stock. She had heard of it, but they were going with very solid stocks for their clients. it is a small, very conservative firm. They are holding their own. You just need to be very careful right now. Just wait until you can invest, but I’ve bought a bunch of penny stocks. I’m not a fan of e-trade or any of those discount traders. they always pull that kind of crap.
USinUK
I’m not talking about the best wings. I’m just talking about the closest that are editable.
I did a job in Toledo about a breed of horses that are imported from Brazil. I was amazed at how beautiful the area around Toledo was. Detroit? I honestly don’t remember ever going there.
The building in the documentary that caught my eye was the train station and hotel that was built a long time ago. (I can’t remember the date). It had a 14 story hotel built over it that was never finished, so the top floors have never been built out. This is an old building, like from the 30s. Now, like all the other building downtown, it is crumbling.
But the really strange thing is that a lot the urban neighborhoods are just gone. I don’t know if it was hell night or what, but there are blocks and blocks of vacant lots. There are actually pretty good sized farms in downtown Detroit where squatters are just turning old urban neighborhoods into farms.
Trees are growing up through huge deserted buildings and the city is starting to look like the ruins of a once great city.
Tonight, take thirty minutes and set and watch this. It has a real strange beauty about it.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 12:43 PM | Link to this
Bruno
Go with Charles Schwab. I have an admin account with them because of my ex. I can’t use their face to face brick and mortar service, but I can use everything from their web site. My rates are fantastic and they never put restrictions on anything I do as long as i have the cash. I don’t trade on credit.
By chuck
February 24, 2009 12:49 PM | Link to this
Mara, let me use an analogy:
I’m driving down the road and there is a huge boulder completely blocking the road. If I don’t do SOMETHING, I’m going to crash, so I ACCELERATE.
How can any thinking person buy the argument that doing the wrong thing is better than doing NOTHING? I could ALMOST buy it IF what we had done had any economically SOUND principles underpinning it. For instance, the $15K home buyer credit that was REMOVED from the bill. I was actually looking to buy a house and probably would have pulled the trigger, if that had remained in the bill. IF THE HOME MORTGAGE FORECLOSURE problem started this mess, shouldn’t we have done something to encourage people to BUY those houses, thereby removing bad debt that was hurting the financial industry?
While Obama was talking about the “failed ideas of the past” to which I assume he was referring to tax cuts, did he forget that after the Bush tax cuts in 2003 that revenues to the federal government actually increased from 1.8 trillion to 2.15 trillion by 2005 and that we experienced extremely strong economic growth during that time? Did he forget that this downturn was caused primarily because financial institutions made bad loans some of which were at the request of the government?
A package that was based on tax cuts and incentives coupled with a REDUCTION in discretionary spending would have been ECONOMICALLY SOUND, and would not as EVERYBODY agrees lead to the runaway inflation that this bill is going to cause as well as increased interest rates and high unemployment. (See, Carter, James Earl).
AW, while I don’t understand how posting under another (or a multitude of) pseudonyms is any more anonymous than the other name that you used for years (since everybody who posts here recognizes your unmistakeable style), I will respect it and refer to you by your name of choice on the blog. It would be nice if you didn’t change it every couple of weeks though. I don’t always do well with change. That said, I don’t think that I mischaracterized your overall philosophy of government based on a plethora of posts that I think confirm it. Could you be more specific?
By AW
February 24, 2009 12:51 PM | Link to this
Publix has pasta on sale, two for one.
By Gale
February 24, 2009 12:52 PM | Link to this
Beautiful area around Toledo? You’re joking, right? It is a grey dreary city. The only bright spots are the zoo and the museum.
By 2D
February 24, 2009 1:05 PM | Link to this
Shouldn’t the real question be about WHAT was done in the stimulus and not HOW FAST it was done?
The problem with the stimulus bill, as a I railed ad nauseum a few weeks ago, is that it neither stimulates the economy nor fixes the underlying problem with the economy.
Perhaps the administration should have worked to shore up the underlying issues of the economy (i.e. housing) first before attempting to stimulate it. Without a strong foundation, no plan will work. We all know what happened to the house built on sand.
Perhaps the administration should also stop trying to ease the pain and suffering from this recession. People learn from pain and suffering. I know I do.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this
Gale
I said AROUND Toledo. These were horse farms so they were pretty far out. I had a day off and I meant to go into town, but I got a chance to go riding on those incredible horses. They are called Mangalarga Marchador. I had grown up around Tennessee Walkers so I was used to a large breed, but these were gated and were really like riding a Cadillac. A stallion goes for about 50 grand so I won’t be buying one any time soon, but when I win the lottery, I’ll have my Ferrari and my Marchadores.
By Mara
February 24, 2009 1:12 PM | Link to this
chuck - I’m driving down the road and there is a huge boulder completely blocking the road.
bad analogy. First of all, you CAN predict what will happen if you accelerate toward a huge boulder that’s blocking the road because NOTHING IS LIKELY TO CHANGE the position of the boulder. A better use of the ‘boulder’ analogy would have been if it was tumbling down the hill toward the road, kind of the way the American economy is/was plummeting toward insolvency. Now, at this point your analgy might have merit.
You could attempt to keep the boulder from crushing your car by diverting it with burms or barricades (sort of what we tried with TARP…diverting the collapse of the financial sector onto a less damaging, more gradual trajectory)
You could certainly sit in your car waiting to see whether the boulder might veer off to the side on its own (wait and see), though you might end up waiting too long and not having time to get out of the way.
Or you could remove your vehicle from the danger zone by accelerating or backing up (spending/tax cuts). Seems to me that the smart choice is to move the car first and then argue about whether it would have been better to have moved it forward or backward.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 1:12 PM | Link to this
“Bush tax cuts in 2003 that revenues to the federal government actually increased from 1.8 trillion to 2.15 trillion by 2005 and that we experienced extremely strong economic growth during that time?”
before I head home, I felt the need to address this:
1) the reason tax revenues grew were because of BUSINESS TAXES, not personal taxes - businesses were recording record profits. meanwhile, personal financial growth was below the historic average (especially if you subtract house values and 401K balances)
2) extremely strong economic growth? we had growth, yes - but it was FAR from “extremely strong” - it was adequate. GDP peaked in 2004 at 3.6% for the year - 2005, it dropped to 2.9%, 2006 to 2.8% and 2.0% in 2007. Standard GDP growth for the US is 3.5% - so, 1 year at “standard” and the following 3 below isn’t “extremely strong” in anyone’s book.
By USinUK
February 24, 2009 1:18 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
never been to Ohio other than a Delta link at the Cinci airport. you’re the first person to ever say anything positive about Toledo, though! ;-)
okay - heading home for the night … happy Mardi Gras/Shrove Tuesday, ya’ll!!
have a good night
By Gandalf, the White!
February 24, 2009 1:53 PM | Link to this
Or like Barry, you could pour gas all over the car and catch it on fire so you could destroy it yourself before the boulder hit, NOW I like the analogy!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 24, 2009 1:55 PM | Link to this
Mardi’s Gras? You Heathen! Saturday night in Toledo Ohio is like being nowhere at all…if John Denver cracks on a city, it gotta be pretty bad!
By chuck
February 24, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this
Mara, the point of the annalogy was doing the WRONG THING is worse than doing nothing at all. Whether the boulder is sitting still OR Hurtling toward me, I still want to calculate the odds and choose the BEST option…the one most likely to keep me alive. The so-called stimulus package is EXTREMELY likely to cause long term problems and nobody “knows” if there will be ANY short term benefit to the economy.
One of my favorite movies is War Games with Matthew Broderick, Ally Sheedy and Dabney Coleman. One of my favorite lines from the movie comes near the end when the robot plays out every scenario of tic tac toe and then global thermonuclear warfare. Everything gets quiet as the world is destroyed in every one of the scenarios, then the robotic computer voice of Joshua speaks and says:
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
The LESS involved in the economy the government gets the better off we all are. YES, there would be PAIN involved with that. Those of us who are able to work through it would certainly need to do our share to help those most affected, but it is a better option than what the back room (so much for transparency) deal has gotten us.
2D, very astute post. I couldn’t agree more.
By chuck
February 24, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this
Great post at 1:53 GtW
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 2:00 PM | Link to this
happy Mardi Gras
SUYT!! SUYT!! (throwing beads at USinUK)
By Gale
February 24, 2009 2:08 PM | Link to this
Darn you, Gandalf! Now I have that song in my head!
By 2D
February 24, 2009 2:19 PM | Link to this
Mara…
I like your analagy of the moving boulder, but there is an option for the vehicle you didn’t consider… SIMPLY SLOW DOWN.
At that point one can better gauge a situation and take a more prudent escape route. Unless you know the road being traveled, accelerating past the boulder could be more dangerous than the boulder (like a hair pin turn that sends you into the Grand Canyon).
This crisis is the unknown road. We don’t know what lies ahead and IMO, acceleration is at least as dangerous as the boulder. That being said, as a driver, I’d prefer to slow down and work my way through the danger I can see. That allows me to call on my driver’s ed and experience driving in lots of inclement conditions. Past experience may not be exactly like the boulder, but at least it’s something from which to draw and compare.
We’ve been through economic crises in the past. None like this one, but crises no less. If we draw upon the successes and failures of past trials, we will have the best chance to weather the current storm. So far, the actions taken by the administration mirror past failures rahter than successes. I hope I’m wrong, but history usually proves to be correct.
By Bruno
February 24, 2009 2:24 PM | Link to this
So far, the actions taken by the administration mirror past failures rahter than successes. I hope I’m wrong, but history usually proves to be correct.
What has me shaking my head, 2D, is the same crowd who criticized people for following Bush blindly are now advocating following Obama blindly. By pushing this spending bill through so quickly, I don’t think that there was adequate time to do any research and debate the bill.
By Mara
February 24, 2009 2:34 PM | Link to this
2D - I like your analagy of the moving boulder, but there is an option for the vehicle you didn’t consider… SIMPLY SLOW DOWN.
You’re right. That would be an option…except that the the boulder is gathering momentum and getting larger via the debris adhereing to it. The longer we remain in the ‘danger zone’ the larger the zone gets and the more dangerous our situation.
(sigh) It’s a little late now for woulda-coulda-shoulda’s. Like you, all I can do is be prudent in my own choices and hope for the best for the rest of it. I probably wouldn’t have said anything more on it, but it just really bugs me when people pretend that they KNOW the stimulus will fail, or that they KNOW it’ll be a cure-all. Sure, maybe the economists were wrong and the situation wasn’t as dire as projected. Maybe we SHOULD have gone slower, but we didn’t. It’s a done deal and only time will tell how well it works.
gotta go for now. caio.
By The Other jack
February 24, 2009 2:50 PM | Link to this
OK, OK, OK
After being married for 44 years, I took a careful look at my wife one day and said, “Forty-four years ago we had a cheap apartment, a cheap car, slept on a sofa bed and watched a 10-inch black and white TV, but I got to sleep every night with a hot 25-year-old girl.”
“Now I have a $1,500,000.00 home, a $45,000.00 car, nice big bed and plasma screen TV, but I’m sleeping with a 69-year-old woman. It seems to me that you’re not holding up your side of things.”
My wife is a very reasonable woman. She told me to go out and find a hot 25-year-old girl and she would make sure that I would once again be living in a cheap apartment, driving a cheap car, sleeping on a sofa bed and watching a 10-inch black and white TV.
Aren’t older women great? They really know how to solve your mid-life crises.
OK, OK, OK
Toward the end of Sunday service, the Minister asked, “How many of you have forgiven your enemies?”
80% held up their hands.
The Minister then repeated his question. All responded this time, except one small elderly lady.
“Miss Joyce!! Are you not willing to forgive your enemies?”
“I don’t have any.” She replied, smiling sweetly.
“Miss Joyce, that is very unusual. How old are you?”
“Ninety-eight.” she replied.
“Oh, Miss Joyce, would you please come down in front and tell us all how a person can live ninety-eight years and not have an enemy in the world?”
The little sweetheart of a lady tottered down the aisle, faced the congregation, and said: “I outlived the b1tches.”
OK, OK, OK
Thought for the day: There is more money being spent on breast implants and Viagra today than on Alzheimer’s research. This means that by 2040, there should be a large elderly population with perky boobs and huge erections and absolutely no recollection of what to do with them.
Please tip your waitresses and bartenders. We’ll be here all week.
By chuck
February 24, 2009 4:06 PM | Link to this
Mara NOBODY KNOWS it will fail. Just looking at HISTORICAL data, what was done in the stimulus bill has been done in the past and it led to high interest rates, high unemployment and very high inflation rates (See Carter, James Earl). Government spending for hard goods like weapons systems, planes, infrastructure etc. have a somewhat stimulating effect on the economy, but if done with borrowed dollars is usually short term. Social spending has NEVER been shown to improve the economy in the short run OR to help the recipients in the long run. THIS is the historical RECORD.
What makes this bill even worse is that even the short-term stimulus of infrastructure is non-existent because there are very few “shovel-ready” projects on which to spend it. The last article I read said that well over half of this money is not even going to be spent in the first 2 years of the package. If “Time was of the Essence” and failure to do something NOW was going to be catastrophic to the economy, shouldn’t ANY PROPOSAL for the package require IMMEDIATE EXPENDATURE.
Couldn’t those monies that are not being spent immediately been excluded from the stimulus package so that they could be studied in more detail rather than cramming them into an unreadable bill? Ask yourself the question Mara. Why would they put spending that won’t occur in the period of time deemed necessary for this emergency stimulus bill into the bill KNOWING that time was of the essence? Ask yourself this question. What were they trying to hide?
THEN tell me we didn’t move too fast.
See ya’ll later.
By AW
February 24, 2009 4:24 PM | Link to this
…but some people HOPE it will fail. That’s the scariest part, IMO.
By 2D
February 24, 2009 4:45 PM | Link to this
AW…
Very few people hope it will fail. The only people who hope it will fail are the folks that have so much money that they can weather any financial crisis. I am not one of those individuals. Many of us simply expect that it will fail due to the historical evidence.
Mara…
The question posted by the BLOG was directly about whether or not we went too fast with the stimulus bill. I, like many others here, are simply venting our frustration. Not only did this administration make a hasty decision, they made one that a large majority of the public disagrees with and doesn’t have any empirical evidence to show how or that it will work. In fact, historical evidence seems to show otherwise. Based on the previous points, the bill appears to be nothing more than an attempt to appease the various blocks of voters that put this administration into office.
That is the most frustrating part of this whole situation. This administration was supposed to be smarter and maker better, more thought out decisions than the last one. In it’s first real test, it wasn’t able to do so.
By Archie
February 24, 2009 4:57 PM | Link to this
My answer is no we did not move too fast. The president made it known he was going to do something as soon as he took office and much of what is in the package is what he promised he would do. We already had a deficit, a big deficit before President Obama took office so comments about spending seem quite hypocritical and something needed to be done for people not in the top 5 percent of all wage earners. Here in my state of SC my ignorant governor says he doesn’t want to take any money yet we have public schools with roofing problems and we have the 3rd highest unemployment rate in the country and my ignorant governor responds by bashing the unemployment agency. I use the word ignorant because that’s how a fellow republican describes him and that person is a hardcore conservative. My point is you have to do something and not everybody is going like when you do it or what you do but you can’t stand on principles just for political gain. Good job Andrea!!
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 8:13 AM | Link to this
“Not only did this administration make a hasty decision, they made one that a large majority of the public disagrees with”
um. no:
http:// www.gallup.com/ poll/116083/ Views-Government-Aid-Depend-Program.aspx
A majority of Americans support the broad stimulus plan that President Obama signed into law on Feb. 17. However, there is no majority consensus that it will make things better, and there are concerns about various aspects of the plan.
A Feb. 10 Gallup Poll showed 59% support for the new stimulus law just prior to its passage by Congress. A Feb 19-22 Washington Post/ABC News poll conducted after the plan became law found a similar 64% support for the plan, described in that poll as the government spending “about $800 billion on tax cuts, construction projects, and aid to states and individuals to try to stimulate the economy.”
snip
All current polling shows that a majority of better than 6 in 10 Americans support a government program to provide relief to homeowners facing foreclosure. This is a robust finding, evident across different question wordings in four separate recent polls.
Gallup found 64% support for homeowner relief worded as “giving aid to homeowners who are in danger of losing their homes to foreclosure.” The New York Times/CBS News poll showed 61% support for “a plan to help homeowners refinance their mortgages, avoid foreclosure and make more credit available for mortgages.” The Washington Post/ABC News poll found 64% support for “the federal government using $75 billion to provide refinancing assistance to homeowners to help them avoid foreclosure on their mortgages.” A CNN/Opinion Research poll found 63% support for “the federal government providing assistance to homeowners who cannot pay their mortgages.”
snip
There is majority support for the stimulus bill President Obama signed into law last week, albeit with significant trepidations about its impact. There is majority support for the concept of helping homeowners who face foreclosure.
2D - file under the heading “you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts”: you and I may disagree on the impact of government spending (although, you really can’t argue that the WPA spending didn’t hep lower unemployment by nearly half) - and you and Bruno and TOJ and chuck may not be happy about the stimulus package, but the majority of Americans are for the stimulus package and the mortgage bailout package.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 8:17 AM | Link to this
Thoughts about last night’s speach to Congress? Was this the flip side of an overall plan, or just a flip? I wonder if programs that will be reviewed for waste will include the programs infused into the stimulus package. Congress needs to take a hard look at all spending.
I am glad to see the brakes put on the helicopter deal. I agree the President needs transportation that is known to be secure, but I heard that some of the proposed electronics have not even been developed yet. I don’t think we want the President traveling in the hands of beta-test equipment anymore than equipment at the end of its life cycle.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 8:35 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“I don’t think we want the President traveling in the hands of beta-test equipment anymore than equipment at the end of its life cycle.”
haha. well said.
“Thoughts about last night’s speach to Congress?”
loved the transcript - looking forward to youtubing it tonight. as I said to Bruno last week, this is what I’ve been hoping he’d start to say: “The weight of this crisis will not determine the destiny of this nation. The answers to our problems don’t lie beyond our reach. They exist in our laboratories and universities; in our fields and our factories; in the imaginations of our entrepreneurs and the pride of the hardest-working people on Earth. Those qualities that have made America the greatest force of progress and prosperity in human history we still possess in ample measure. What is required now is for this country to pull together, confront boldly the challenges we face, and take responsibility for our future once more.”
and this, “That’s what this is about. It’s not about helping banks - it’s about helping people. Because when credit is available again, that young family can finally buy a new home. And then some company will hire workers to build it. And then those workers will have money to spend, and if they can get a loan too, maybe they’ll finally buy that car, or open their own business. Investors will return to the market, and American families will see their retirement secured once more. Slowly, but surely, confidence will return, and our economy will recover.”
from the transcript, the speech gave the “turn” that B-dog and I have been hoping to see (or at least I have) - a Bob-the-Builder attitude (can we build it, yes! we! can!) mixed with the reality of the challenges we face.
anyhoo, that was my £0.02.
By Mara
February 25, 2009 8:40 AM | Link to this
2D - they made one that a large majority of the public disagrees with
I don’t know what polls you are looking at, but I haven’t seen any that support this statement. Some polls from the early part of the month show a erosion, but still a slight majority in support. But even the Fox News poll showed a two percent majority supporting it. The ONLY poll (only reputable poll, that is) I could find that has even a slight a majority that disagrees with the package is Rasmussen from the first week in February…
Here’s a link for the Polling Report aggregate site if you want to look at the numbers yourself - pollingreport.com/budget.htm
I’d suggest the 538 site also, but Nate doesn’t seem to have a post for this particular issue, so you’ll have to search by keyword
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 8:41 AM | Link to this
I HOPE Barry would quit lying to the AMERICAN people, but after last night it doesn’t look like that will happen. Gale, I personally wouldn’t mind if he was the test pilot for any new technology, after all, we, (the US) invented the automobile? WTF is this guy smokin? WE (and by we I mean FORD) invented the assembly line, but not the auto, europeans beat us by years. SAVE OR CREATE 3.5 million jobs? The “False Prophet” is delusional! Double renewable energy in 3 years? What is he smokin? Oh, he is back on the crack pipe, OK.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 8:49 AM | Link to this
Who wants to bet the Isreal attacks AND destroys Iran’s nuclear plant before June 1?
By 2D
February 25, 2009 8:49 AM | Link to this
USinUK…
Sorry… Parsing of the term support, but the very article you posted shows how the idea of “support” contradicts itself.
How can a poll indicate a majority of people be for the “stimulus” package but also indicate a majority of people are not sure it is going to work?
To me, that indicates what I’ve said all along… Most people believe the government should get involved. I do, most people do. However, most people do not believe that the current actions taken by the administration will make things better.
So… I agree with the article you posted… Most people believe the govenrment should get involved, there is not a majority of people who believe the plan passed will work and people have serious concerns for various aspects of the plan.
Also…
Never mentioned anything about a plan for foreclosures so don’t try to lump my feelings about one plan with another. If you want to debate that, I’d be glad to. As of right now, I’ve never put forth an opinion one way or the other, so please don’t make it appear hat I have.
OMT…
I also never said the WPA spending didn’t lower unemployment. What I and many, MANY other people have said, was that the WPA, New Deal, whatever you want to call it, didn’t break the Depression. It borrowed a lot of money, provided short term relief to the unemployment rolls but it didn’t provide a long term solution. Government programs never do. Never have. Never will. It took a World War to revive this country after FDR had completely destroyed the economy.
Only the ingenuity and entrepreneurial spirit of American people will enable a recovery.
How many times have you been watching a great ball game with skilled athletes at the height of their skills, soaring through the air, streaking down the field, doing the greatest athletic feats you’ve ever seen only to have the officials muck up the game with a bad call, or a series of calls that completely disrupt the flow of the contest. Government is like a good umpire/referee/official. They are at their best when no one knows they are around. They keep the peace, make sure the rules are followed, even deliver punishment when necessary but do not disrupt the flow of the game.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 8:58 AM | Link to this
The Democrats suck in this ref analogy. Barry is going to get his way like the coaches son gets the ball.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 9:03 AM | Link to this
2D -
“Never mentioned anything about a plan for foreclosures so don’t try to lump my feelings about one plan with another. If you want to debate that, I’d be glad to. As of right now, I’ve never put forth an opinion one way or the other, so please don’t make it appear hat I have.”
I didn’t say you did have an opinion on housing - just thought I’d point it out that support is there for both plans.
“Parsing of the term support, but the very article you posted shows how the idea of “support” contradicts itself.”
I disagree - just as you have a lot of people here who don’t know if the bill is going to help but support the bill nonetheless because they feel that it’s better than doing nothing. You can support something but still have your doubts and/or concerns.
“Government is like a good umpire/referee/official.”
yep, and if the economy was like a warm summer’s evening without a cloud in the sky, you’d be absolutely right. right now, however, it’s pi$$ing down with rain, we’ve got pitchers using every type of lubricant known to man to load the ball, we’ve got one manager on the field trying to continue play while the other one is sending his guys to the lockers, and we’ve got teenagers running around in the outfield, sliding on the astroturf. It’s pandamonium.
By The Other jack
February 25, 2009 9:06 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The speech was good, but Nancy Pelosi once again looked like a complete moron. It;s bad enough that she had the eye surgery that makes her look like a bug eyed clown, but that jumping up and down like a school girl certainly didn’t do much for her already horrible credibility.
Wonder why the Democratic Congress has had the worst approval ratings in the history of the institution? Look at that bug eyed limousine liberal that leads your party. I can’t imagine what leaders from other country think about her.
I’m out all day. Have a good one.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 9:09 AM | Link to this
Thanks Chuck, I don’t think anyone has ever called one of my posts great before! Irratating, irrational, hateful, yes, great, well that is a first!
By Mara
February 25, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this
Gale - Thoughts about last night’s speach to Congress? Was this the flip side of an overall plan, or just a flip?
one person’s waste is another person’s vital program, dontcha know. As an example, and since Jindal mentioned it as a wasteful program, I’ll use Volcano Monitoring.
On June 15, 1991 Mount Pinatubo was subject to a cataclysmic eruption. About 30,000 American military personnel and their dependents lived near the base of the volcano at the two largest U.S. military bases in the Philippines (Clark Air Base and Subic Bay Naval Station). The adjacent hills and valleys were home to thousands of Philippine villagers. Despite the number of people at risk, there were very few casualties. This was the result of intensive monitoring of Mount Pinatubo by scientists with the Philippine Institute of Volcanology and Seismology and the USGS.
In addition to lives saved, property worth hundreds of millions of dollars was protected from damage or destruction in the eruption. When aircraft and other equipment at the U.S. bases were flown to safe areas or covered, losses of at least $200 to 275 million were averted. Philippine and other commercial airlines prevented at least another $50 to 100 million in damage to aircraft by taking similar actions.
currently, there are 169 volcanoes in the United States, 18 of which are listed has posing a “very high threat to people and aircraft”. Of those mountais that are listed as merely having a ‘high threat’, better than half of these are in Alaska, but they also including 11 in the lowere 48 - three in California, two in Hawaii, and four each in Oregon and Washington.
Jindal and the Republicans suggest that watching them and all the others around the world that need watching is a waste of money. I think that protecting lives and property is kinda what the government is supposed to do.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this
SD, interesting analogy. “disrupting the flow of the game” I like that. I have often felt that various subsidies are disrupting the natural order. Farm subsidies are my favorite target. Assisting farmers in crisis, assisting growers of some critical commodity… Yes, that is important.Tipping the markets so they grow crops not suited to the soil or climate does not make sense. Paying farmers to not grow crops does not make sense.
I remember a program in MI that paid farmers to not grow in a given acreage. In itself, that is sound practice that farmers should follow anyway. The ground needs to rest after chemicals and heavy equipment. However, they were also not allowed to grow something that would have improved the soil, which would have been plowed back into the ground to futher nourish it, eg, buckwheat. No, instead the ground grew up in weeds that required still more herbicides to make it ready to work again. That was an example of government involvement that went bad.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this
Barry is a silly man! Is he like Curious George? Not that smart!
By Mara
February 25, 2009 9:20 AM | Link to this
I dont’ watch ‘30 Rock’ so I can’t comment, but there are a whole passel of folks out there comparing Jindal during his rebuttal speech to the character “Kenneth the Page”.
By 2D
February 25, 2009 9:21 AM | Link to this
USinUK…
Very well…
I capitulate…
I should have written in my original post that a majority of people do not believe this spending bill will make things better…
I like your retort to the official analagy.
But keep this in mind…
Some of the best games I’ve ever seen are not played under a warm summer sky, but rather in inclement conditions. They provide the greatest tests of an athlete’s skill.
Some of the greatest performances I’ve ever seen occur when David slew Goliath. They show how a team of people that believes in each other can overcome the odds and prove everyone wrong.
Some of the greatest individual performances I’ve ever seen are when an athlete is hurt, banged up and limping around. It shows their desire, their heart and their fortitude.
The American people are those battered, bruised underdogs playing their signature game under snowy, blustery conditions. We will prevail and we do not need the officials to come to our rescue.
But even when pandamonium breaks out like you’ve described, the officials do not make fundamental changes to the game. They remove the idiots, the cheaters and the disorderly. They do not make wholesale changes because of short term problems. Why…? Because they recognize that the game has survived for years, decades, or even centuries and keep it intact.
By jhpoke
February 25, 2009 9:30 AM | Link to this
The GOP read enough of the bill to find things they didn’t like. They even read things into the bill that wasn’t there.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 9:34 AM | Link to this
SD, your 9:25 was just plain inspirational. Thanks.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 9:35 AM | Link to this
Some say that Ronald Reagan brought down the wall, I know it was Kurt Russell coaching the 1980 US Hockey Team to the final and defeating communism right on the ice.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 9:42 AM | Link to this
2D -
“I should have written in my original post that a majority of people do not believe this spending bill will make things better…”
again, a majority? some, my friend. some.
for the most part, the biggest differences are the details - should more money have been spent? or less? will it create jobs? or sustain them? again, that doesn’t translate into “a majority doesn’t believe the spending bill will make things better”
“They provide the greatest tests of an athlete’s skill.”
you are QUITE the good writer when it comes to talking about sport (what is it about sport that brings out the poet in all of us? cue Jim McCay!). however, the brass tacks of it all - no matter how good a game is, no matter how much the winners rallied from behind, no matter how gravity-defying the athletics - rarely did the losers lose their homes after the games or be unable to feed and clothe their families.
because, as lovely as your analogy is - and it is - this is about people, not theory. this is about folks who are losing their jobs, and because of that, losing their homes.
am I happy about government intervention? of course I’m not - but, I’d rather have government intervention helping stem the rising tide of unemployment and, thus, stopping the economy from an even steeper dive than sit back and say “let the market correct itself”, resulting in millions more people losing their jobs, seniors losing what’s left of their retirement savings, people losing their homes.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 9:45 AM | Link to this
um, 9:21, that is, SD. Still inspiring.
Gandalf, that movie was American propaganda at it’s best. American winning by putting aside differences and working together. Go team!
By Gale
February 25, 2009 9:49 AM | Link to this
The problem may have been partly caused by letting the market correct itself on one hand, while intervening with tarriffs and tax breaks which change behavior with the other hand. Normally, I would say the government should butt out of commerce. But we are in such a mess now that the umpire needs to do some serious sorting out.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 10:02 AM | Link to this
Gale, that was a movie? oh, ok, so Ronald Reagan really did fix the worst economy since the Great Depression AND defeat communism? It wasn’t Kurt Russell? I am sorry I got that wrong! Thanks for the help Gale! WWRRD? Increase defense spending, lower taxes? Yep that would do it!
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 10:08 AM | Link to this
One can always move the car to the side of the road and pass around the boulder, or (prior planning prevents poor performance) you could stop texting WtW as you drive see the boulder in the road and take an alternative route. You could attach a mine drill to the front of your car (see ACME) and drill through said boulder. One could contact local DOT and they will create new road through long established residential area for your driving pleasure thus creating new jobs—one could—well— call the Enterprise and have Scotty: beam you up.
chuck: Voters elect representatives to do what is best for their state—the best for America as a whole job is for the president.
By The Other jack
February 25, 2009 10:21 AM | Link to this
USinUk
because, as lovely as your analogy is - and it is - this is about people, not theory. this is about folks who are losing their jobs, and because of that, losing their homes.
I’m sorry but building elevated rails to Disneyland (yes, I still love trains) and reenacting a failed welfare system isn’t keeping anyone from losing their homes. We will all need to pay for this, just like you guys said for 8 years that we would need to pay for a much, much less expensive Iraq war.
it was like everything else that is bad about Washington: the few good things were attached to hundreds of pork and earmark projects, something that Obama specifically promised not to do.
I would never vote Republican if Democrats did what they promised, but they never, never, never, never. never do. I’m still waiting on the universal health care that Clinton promised, but his own party kept it from happeniing.
We just spent much more money that anyone said that Universal Health care would have costs. Now please explain how this is going to help me? I have great health (knock on wood) and my rates are still going up because like so many other people, I am looking at 60 years old in just a few short years.
Once again, I, and every other hard working tax payer is going to bail out people who do not work. When is it my turn? When will I get a single benifit from that all too benevolent Democratic party? When can we expect the democrats to do a sigle thing they say they will other than releasing the worst of our country’s worst enemies.
Truck just pulled up.
Bye
By Gale
February 25, 2009 10:33 AM | Link to this
“what is best for their state” That spurred a thought; perhaps a silly thought, but nonetheless… In the current global economy, are the concepts of States rights and needs outdated? Is it possible we expect too much at the state level to come from the federal government. Or has the federal government imposed too many mandates on States that they are not funding and thereby gummed up the focus of the states on state matters?
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
oooo … hit and run …
I’ll respond anyway -
“building elevated rails to Disneyland (yes, I still love trains) and reenacting a failed welfare system isn’t keeping anyone from losing their homes”
oh, really? the engineers who work on the project, the men and women who build it, the people hired to do the administration and upkeep - they’re not remaining employed? those firms won’t need to hire new folks? the same with bridges, roads, etc.
“I’m still waiting on the universal health care that Clinton promised, but his own party kept it from happeniing”
now, THAT’S funny. the Dems ran the national ads against it?? The Dems brought us Harry and Louise?? the Dems had people ranting and raving on Rush et al against it??
From 1994: “The Republican National Committee yesterday launched a $500,000 advertising campaign criticizing President Clinton’s health care plan and calling for scaled back insurance reforms that GOP officials said could win bipartisan support in Congress now.
William Kristol in 1994: “Any Republican urge to negotiate a ‘least bad’ compromise with the Democrats, and thereby gain momentary public credit for helping the president ‘do something’ about health care, should be resisted
And Harry and Louise was brought to you by the health insurance industry.
“Now please explain how this is going to help me?”
I suggest you look up Bernanke’s testimony from yesterday - it may go a little way to helping you understand the bigger picture.
By 2D
February 25, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this
USinUK…
“However, there is no majority consensus that it (the spending bill) will make things better, and there are concerns about various aspects of the plan.” A quote directly from the link you posted.
Thank your for the compliment on my writing. I think people write about sport so well because so many of us participated in sport, watched sport or link it to special times in our lives. Sport is the fabric that holds this great nation (and many others) together.
By Explaining Government
February 25, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this
To be elected governors and representatives and presidents declare tax cuts (keep citizens happy & drooling in ignorance) then when state revenues decrease because of lack of tax dollars governors push mayors to cut jobs in public service: firemen, cops, schools and social organizations requiring funding from the federal government.
States receive revenues from state taxes and pork attached to bills passed by federal representatives in house & senate. All states want pork to flow like a river into their coffers—the more representatives a state has—the bigger their slice of pie will be because they have more representatives attaching earmarks. Lobbyists attach themselves to said representatives as well as governors whispering of lucrative incentives to garner support for their corporations to build in said state that of course benefit the constituents—wink wink…. incentives large enough to state governors to look away from nasty pre-existing-prior administration passed regulations (ludicrous & erroneous, of course, if previous administration is of opposite party) to give companies HUGE tax-free benefits for building in state. Without major corporations paying state taxes a deficit is formed and because small business owners do not have revenue to interest governors they are the ones paying more taxes yearly to offset said deficit.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 11:32 AM | Link to this
2D -
“Thank your for the compliment on my writing.”
de nachos :-)
“I think people write about sport so well because so many of us participated in sport, watched sport or link it to special times in our lives. Sport is the fabric that holds this great nation (and many others) together.”
I agree - and I’ll go one step farther - there’s something so amazingly uplifting about watching people in sport - the grace of it, the strength. Whether it’s watching the little ones flail around chasing a ball in PeeWee League soccer to watching the elites in the Olympics, there’s just a joy (for lack of a better word) in the body in motion, ya know what I mean?
“A quote directly from the link you posted”
read the rest of the article - in which it says that the disagreements are about the issues I cited above.
By 2D
February 25, 2009 11:32 AM | Link to this
USinUK…
The train TOJ mentioned illustrates how both of us are correct when contemplating this spending bill.
Building the train will do exactly as you state… It will employ engineers, builders, administrators, etc. The unemployment rate will go down. Those people will feed families, pay mortgages, buy stuff, etc.
But what happens when the project has been completed? How will that train be a long term factor in our economy? How does that project provide long term efficiency? What are the tax payers getting for their multi-million dollar investment other than a short term boost?
The answer… Very little…
These are the types of projects that scuttle support and confidence in the spending bill. Instead this administration should focus the $$$ on three things…
Tax cuts. And give them to people who actually pay income and small business tax. If you don’t pay anything now, you should get additional tax credits.
Infrastructure, roads, bridges, energy efficiency, school technology. Those projects will directly (engineers, builders) and indirectly (support services, suppliers, etc.) put people to work as well as provide long term benefits for the tax payers. This bill focuses very little (based on the articles I’ve read) to such projects.
Invest in the military. Like basic infrastructure, that puts people to work but it does other things. It keeps us safe from our enemies abroad. It keeps our uniformed men and women safer when in harm’s way. It gives every day consumers new products. Many items that we use in our every day lives come from research and development done for the military or what was then the space program.
By chuck
February 25, 2009 11:56 AM | Link to this
because, as lovely as your analogy is - and it is - this is about people, not theory. this is about folks who are losing their jobs, and because of that, losing their homes.
Yes, it is about all of these things, and as I said yesterday:
One of the major differences between liberals and conservatives is stereotypically true; liberals legislate from the heart without thinking and conservatives legislate from the head without feeling.
As terrible as those things are, the GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE SOLUTION. In fact, most would say that this kind of government intervention in the economy IS THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.
USUK, I have been teaching for nearly 20 years. I still don’t understand the mentality that you and others display. This is the fact whether or not you agree or choose to believe it:
The more you solve problems FOR people, the less incentive they have to look for incentives themselves.
I see this over and over again in school. Successful students are not the ones who make good grades, necessarily. They are the ones who fight through problems and adversity and figure things out for themselves. Teachers who act as facillitators rather than spoon feeders produce students who can think for themselves and solve their own problems. Unfortunately, you and others were brought up THINKING that doing FOR someone is HELPING THEM. It isn’t. Doing FOR someone traps them in cycles of poverty, permanently dependent upon someone else for their survival. (See: give a fish, teach to fish)
That may be the way that they do it in FRANCE, but this is THE FREAKIN’ UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Individual ingenuity is our TRADEMARK, and we are losing it.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 11:58 AM | Link to this
We can build Pyramids! That’s what Barry should do! and then put them pyramids in a damn, and make big lakes that produce electricity and drinkin’ water! Then GA could declare war on Tennessee and Florida, and get control of thier water, shut up aLgORE and lots of good Tennessee corn liquor on Sunday, and pull Tim TeBOW (oh, and the Florida coaching staff as well!) up to UGA to win a national championship. I should run for Govenor on this platform!
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 12:01 PM | Link to this
2D -
“How will that train be a long term factor in our economy? How does that project provide long term efficiency? What are the tax payers getting for their multi-million dollar investment other than a short term boost?”
I suggest you look at the number of people MARTA employs. You need people to maintain trains, run ticket booths, provide security, operate snack bars. Those are ongoing jobs.
And, as I mentioned last time we talked about this - say the GADOT decides to … I dunno … build another spaghetti junction around the Gwinett Mall. You’re going to need engineers, road works people, etc. Those people either relax their purse strings because they have a little more job security than they had previously or they wind up taking on more people.
Those people then go and buy pizzas at the mom-and-pop pizza joints I linked to yesterday. Those pizza joints wind up hiring a couple of extra people (and the wait staff has a little more “dosh” in their pockets to spend buying new clothes and downloading music).
It’s called the money multiplier effect. For every dollar pumped into the economy by the government, the economy grows - and it grows more than it would by cutting taxes (government spending has a money multiplier effect of 1.93% vs. tax cuts which has a money multiplier effect of 1.19%).
as for investing in the military vs. roads … run that idea past the fine folks in Minneapolis and see what they think.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this
chuck -
“USUK, I have been teaching for nearly 20 years. I still don’t understand the mentality that you and others display.”
that’s okay, chuck - I’ve been voting for more than 20 years and I still don’t understand the mentalty that you and others display, either.
“Unfortunately, you and others were brought up THINKING that doing FOR someone is HELPING THEM. It isn’t. Doing FOR someone traps them in cycles of poverty, permanently dependent upon someone else for their survival. (See: give a fish, teach to fish)”
and you were evidently brought up that someone in the midst of drowning had better learn how to swim - and soon - rather than to throw them a liftbelt.
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 12:10 PM | Link to this
Does a train going to a private theme park or sprawling gambling casino megaplex actually benefit the state or theme park and why should federal funding be given to a rail line that operates in one state and does not bring any benefits to other states? Can transportation systems already in existence prior to spending be updated for lower costs to increase revenue & jobs in a more sustainable way?
By chuck
February 25, 2009 12:13 PM | Link to this
Is it possible we expect too much at the state level to come from the federal government. Or has the federal government imposed too many mandates on States that they are not funding and thereby gummed up the focus of the states on state matters?
Excellent point Gale. I think it is a combination of the two. Once again, it is left to the South to lead the fight for states’ rights as some governors get ready to turn the dollars down. Good for them. Unfortunately, states are ADDICTED to Federal money to fund any and every whim that enters the mind of some politician. ANY TIME you take federal money, you also get federal control. Once again, Ronald Reagan got it right. He distributed much of the money back to states in the form of block grants with little or no restrictions on how they spent it.
We have the opportunity now to FINALLY rein in big government and we elect a FREAKIN’ SOCIALIST instead of someone who would truly try to reduce the size and scope of government (not John McCain BTW).
By American Woman
February 25, 2009 12:22 PM | Link to this
“One of the major differences between liberals and conservatives is stereotypically true; liberals legislate from the heart without thinking and conservatives legislate from the head without feeling.”
There are a number of assumptions inherent to this assertion that are both blatantly false and utterly offensive. In a technicolor world with many hues, what exactly is the purpose of trying to stuff everyone into caricatures of black or white? Are you REALLY trying to say: “I’m in group (A) which is always right, therefore, everyone not in group (A) must be in group (B) by default, therefore, everyone is group (B) is always wrong?”
Seriously, how many problems do you think you’re going to solve with this approach? Never mind that you’ve insulted plenty of “conservatives” who feel and um, quite a few “liberals” who think….. What exactly are we supposed to be learning from this statement, Teacher? Please enlighten us!
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 12:23 PM | Link to this
chuck, NO ONE will turn down the money! Its all posturing!
By chuck
February 25, 2009 12:28 PM | Link to this
oops, second “incentives should have been solutions.
By Mara
February 25, 2009 12:39 PM | Link to this
we elect a FREAKIN’ SOCIALIST
Please explain exactly what Obama has socialized that leads you to call him a “freakin’ socialist” because I really don’t believe that he supports abolishing ownership of private property or prohibiting private enterprise.
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 12:43 PM | Link to this
For every dollar pumped into the economy by the government, the economy grows……
That’s nice thinking but WHO PAYS for this? Unemployment is at 5 million now… that means there will be 4 million who will not be contributing to the tax base—plus the 4+ million who are on some type of entitlement and not contributing. Then 79 million boomers are expected to retire in the next ten years and start to draw on their entitlement package. Every dollar the government spends equals seventy dollars the average taxpayer must pay to support these recipients of $$$$$ stimulus packages. What you fail to realize is the increased burden on taxpayers will have.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 25, 2009 12:50 PM | Link to this
Dumbassi! The world is Black and White! Anything Obama does sucks. He is a socialist, and he fooled a lot of good people. Anyone who is STILL supporting him? well, Dumbassi tribe! Liberalism is a mental disorder and you are sick!
By chuck
February 25, 2009 12:51 PM | Link to this
Here’s what you SHOULD BE LEARNING AW, Government tries to do too much because people like you and USUK want the government to “HELP” people, “HELP” animals, “HELP” the economy, “HELP” the states, “HELP” children with AIDS in Africa, “HELP” the elderly and on and on. The PROBLEM is that you use this definition of help:
to save; rescue; succor: Help me, I’m falling!
People like me use a different definition of help:
render assistance to; cooperate effectively with;
You see, government is ill suited to the former, but much more able to effectively accomplish the latter. Look at the comment by USUK:
and you were evidently brought up that someone in the midst of drowning had better learn how to swim - and soon - rather than to throw them a liftbelt.
(BTW USUK, we call them life preservers on this side of the pond.)
You see using common sense as being heartless, i.e. letting someone drown. I have no problem throwing a person a life preserver…ONCE… but if that person gets out of the pond with my help and then turns around and jumps back in, he’s on his own. If someone who doesn’t know how to swim JUMPS IN THE FREAKIN’ MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN ANYWAY (buy a house they can’t afford), they are going to learn a very tough lesson. Is that heartless? I don’t think so. Not only will they learn from it (assuming they survive the ordeal), but others will learn from it as well.
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 12:57 PM | Link to this
What happens when the train is built then the theme park closes?
By American Woman
February 25, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this
“Government tries to do too much because people like you and USUK want the government to “HELP” people, “HELP” animals, “HELP” the economy, “HELP” the states, “HELP” children with AIDS in Africa, “HELP” the elderly and on and on. The PROBLEM is that you use this definition of help: to save; rescue; succor: Help me, I’m falling!”
Wow, chuck, you presume a LOT! First, that the government actually “tries to do too much to help.” Heh. There are a few million people on the U.S. Gulf Coast who would disagree heartily, I’ll bet. Second, that you know what USinUK and I have asked our government to do. Third, that you know what my definition of “help” is. And fourth (you may not have implied, but I inferred) that my way of thinking (a way you cannot accurately describe) is the problem. Please forgive me if number four is a misinterpretation.
I expect the government to do for the people collectively what we cannot do for ourselves individually. For example, I cannot hire, train, feed, and pay an army to protect me, so I like the gov’t to do that. I can’t do (let alone teach) geometry with any proficiency at all, so I appreciate the government paying some nice, smart, thinking man like you to teach my children geometry. I cannot take a $500 tax rebate (actually a front on the next year’s return) and build myself a levee, highway, or water treatment plant, so I appreciate when the gov’t does that too. Your assumption that not wanting to watch others drown = not being able or willing to swim is wrong. I swim just fine, thanks, but IT’S BY THE GRACE OF GOD that I’m able. Not everyone gets this much grace, but then, that’s a theological discussion for another day.
By Mara
February 25, 2009 1:41 PM | Link to this
I guess David Brooks says it as well as anyone… - [in response to Jim Lehrer asking “David, how well do you think Jindal did?”]
Brooks - Uh, not so well. You know, I think Bobby Jindal is a very promising politician, and I oppose the stimulus because I thought it was poorly drafted. But to come up at this moment in history with a stale “government is the problem,” “we can’t trust the federal government” - it’s just a disaster for the Republican Party. The country is in a panic right now. They may not like the way the Democrats have passed the stimulus bill, but that idea that we’re just gonna - that government is going to have no role, the federal government has no role in this, that - In a moment when only the federal government is actually big enough to do stuff, to just ignore all that and just say “government is the problem, corruption, earmarks, wasteful spending,” it’s just a form of nihilism. It’s just not where the country is, it’s not where the future of the country is. There’s an intra-Republican debate. Some people say the Republican Party lost its way because they got too moderate. Some people say they got too weird or too conservative. He thinks they got too moderate, and so he’s making that case. I think it’s insane, and I just think it’s a disaster for the party. I just think it’s unfortunate right now.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this
chuck -
“If someone who doesn’t know how to swim JUMPS IN THE FREAKIN’ MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN ANYWAY (buy a house they can’t afford), they are going to learn a very tough lesson. Is that heartless? I don’t think so. Not only will they learn from it (assuming they survive the ordeal), but others will learn from it as well.”
wow. good thing we have YOU who knows everything about everyone - especially how they arrived in their current circumstances - to cast judgement and say who should be helped and who should not. there are plenty of people right now who have been pushed out of their boat in the middle of the ocean via layoffs. there are also plenty of people who were told “get an ARM - the value of your house will always go up, so you can refi before your reset”.
Bernanke said it best yesterday: if your neighbor smokes in bed and his house catches on fire, you could let his house burn to teach him a lesson. the problem is, his housefire will spread to yours and everyone else’s in the neighborhood. OR you could help him put the fire out, saving your house and everyone else’s and deal with the smoking-in-bed problem once the fire is out.
this is a dyed-in-the-wool republican saying that, not one of us namby-pamby dems.
oh, and btw - Lyra has the right of it - the gubernatorial posturing is nothing more than a floor show - especially given that the states legislatures can (and will) override them.
By chuck
February 25, 2009 1:43 PM | Link to this
Mara: From dictionary.com: Socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
He doesn’t have to SAY that he wants to control production and distribution. In fact, he can say the opposite and STILL BE A SOCIALIST. Encyclopedia Britannica put it this way:
So”cial*ism\, n. [Cf. F. socialisme.] A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.
[Socialism] was first applied in England to Owen’s theory of social reconstruction, and in France to those also of St. Simon and Fourier … The word, however, is used with a great variety of meaning, … even by economists and learned critics. The general tendency is to regard as socialistic any interference undertaken by society on behalf of the poor, … radical social reform which disturbs the present system of private property … The tendency of the present socialism is more and more to ally itself with the most advanced democracy. —Encyc. Brit.
The long term goal of the left is to do just that…DISTURB THE PRESENT SYSTEM OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. You can see it in a number of areas. Here is a partial list:
1) the death tax
2) nationalized health care
3)the proposed 40% ownership of citibank
4) Welfare
5) foreclosure bailouts
These and many other leftist policies are by definition socialistic.
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 1:45 PM | Link to this
So we build a rail to their theme parks and the private owners of the park move the park to a different state, or close it completely then move it overseas and we are left with a white elephant train that costs taxpayers billions to build…and trillions to maintain.
We have given billions to banks and car companies and for it they have laid off millions of employees. Since for umpteen years we have used the term (and had the term thrown at us) CAPITALIST SOCIETY to describe business in America—should we just not allow that same system to re-adjust itself? Should we not be as cut-throat as large corporations have been with ‘the little guy’. I mean its capitalism!!! Why should the little guy bail out the big corporations for overspending? Perhaps that way corporations who made stupid decisions will close. CAPITALISM! Perhaps large businesses should not be bailed out at the expense of small businesses who are financially solvent.
I am all for helping them who need help—but big business is NOT deserving to receive funding to prevent its inevitable closure. THAT IS CAPITALISM…just like they preached! What happens when GM closes all its plants in the USA and only builds vehicles in Mexico or Canada?
I would rather invest the money establishing a national health care system than bailing out GM, BofA and other major contributers to the capitalist disaster their arrogance and lack of oversight in their own business plan put the nation in. I would rather pay off the Natl. debt for the 2 wars we are involved in, I would rather money go for maintaining infrastructures, for education, social services and other generous programs civilized societies maintain. I would rather see free college tuition paid for every student than watch Citi get more cash.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 1:51 PM | Link to this
I am interested in the question of who should pay for (levee important to interstate commerce, interstate hiways, MagLev train along the Eastern Seaboard or coast to coast) and whether those things are necessary and good for the economy and the future of the US. I might argue that a levee is only in one state and that state should pay. But since it is important to national commerce that the river stay open to traffic, there is a national interest. I might also argue that it important that all citizens receive a standard minimum education. Why is that a state matter and not a national matter? Or was it fine when the states controlled public schools and only failed when the federal government got involved?
By chuck
February 25, 2009 2:16 PM | Link to this
USUK, nice use of hyperbole, but hardly an accurate representation of what I said:
“If someone who doesn’t know how to swim JUMPS IN THE FREAKIN’ MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN ANYWAY (buy a house they can’t afford), they are going to learn a very tough lesson.
Notice I didn’t say that EVERYBODY got there that way. I criticized the ones who DID. Again, you want to make government policy according to WORST CASE scenarios. You can’t expect the government to pay peoples’ MORTGAGES. That’s just STUPID. I make my payments every month on time. If I don’t I expect to lose my house and have my credit ruined. I don’t expect the government will come to my rescue and I don’t want them to. I expect to live with and take responsibility for the decisions I make. When I make good decisions, I should benefit from them NOT BE PENALIZED for my success by the Government. When I make bad ones, I should suffer the financial consequences of that and not be “BAILED OUT” by the government. Simple philosophy from a simple man.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 2:19 PM | Link to this
Lyra -
“So we build a rail to their theme parks and the private owners of the park move the park to a different state, or close it completely then move it overseas and we are left with a white elephant train that costs taxpayers billions to build…and trillions to maintain.”
um. Disney. and Las Vegas. those are the 2 end points. I don’t think either of them are going anywhere. ever.
“I would rather invest the money establishing a national health care system than bailing out GM, BofA and other major contributers to the capitalist disaster their arrogance and lack of oversight in their own business plan put the nation in”
I agree with you - I’d love to use the money to set up a national health system. however, if you let GM fail, you’re talking the end of not just THOSE jobs, but also the jobs in the companies that provide the parts. if you let BofA fail, you’re talking another financial meltdown like we experienced last September after Lehman failed.
yes, it leaves a horrible taste in everyone’s mouth - but the phrase “too big to fail” isn’t a boast, it’s a warning. the failure of companies like Citi and BofA would be the economic equivalent of an asteroid hitting the planet, wiping out a lot of life as we know it.
By AW (big yawn)
February 25, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this
SOCIALIST!! blah blah blah SOCIALIST! AAAAACCCCKKK! SOCIALIST!!!(repeat until turning blue and passing out, or until a foreign reporter throws shoes at your head, whichever comes first. ) SOCIALIST! SOCIALIST! AAAAAACCCCCKKKK!
My turn! Blah blah blah FASCISM! blah blah blah FASCISTS! (I know you are but what am I?)
1) nationalism “You’re with us or against us!” 2) authoritariansim “I’M THE DECIDER!” and “It’s not a crime if I get drunk and shoot someone in the face, so GFY.” 3) obsession with national security “Color-coded alerts!” 4) sexism “Women and qu—rs have the right to do whatever WE tell them!” 4) protection of corporate power “De-regulate!” and “Don’t audit that defense contractor!” 5) suppression of labor “It’s all the unions’ fault we designed cheap sh-t cars!” 6) obsession with crime and punishment “We don’t need no habeus corpus!” and “We don’t need no stinking warrant.”
Blah blah blah FASCISTS! blah blah blah Isn’t this fascinating?
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 2:30 PM | Link to this
chuck -
“You can’t expect the government to pay peoples’ MORTGAGES. That’s just STUPID” …
re: hyperbole and the usage thereof. right back at ya.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 2:33 PM | Link to this
AW -
“SOCIALIST!! blah blah blah SOCIALIST! AAAAACCCCKKK! SOCIALIST!!!(repeat until turning blue and passing out, or until a foreign reporter throws shoes at your head, whichever comes first. ) SOCIALIST! SOCIALIST! AAAAAACCCCCKKKK!”
ya gotta admit, it’s a nice change from “MUSLIM! blahblahblah 9/11! AAAAACCCCKKK! WAR ON TERROR!!!”
FOX was able to start using all new graphics and EVERYthing …
By chuck
February 25, 2009 2:33 PM | Link to this
however, if you let GM fail, you’re talking the end of not just THOSE jobs, but also the jobs in the companies that provide the parts. if you let BofA fail, you’re talking another financial meltdown like we experienced last September after Lehman failed.
Nice use of Obama’s talking points, but how do you know that they will fail. More importantly, how do you know that they won’t fail ANYWAY…in spite of the billions of dollars pumped into them. Let’s assume the worst case scenario…GM fails. Being a Chevy Man, that would be a tragedy, but WOULDN’T PEOPLE STILL NEED TO BUY CARS?
Cars currently produced by GM would be produced by someone else. The increase in THEIR production would certainly lead to a need for more employees and parts. Demand won’t change because GM goes out of business. On the other hand, if the government says no, GM will of NECESSITY change their business practices. They will have to rethink their philosophy, innovate, and adapt to current market conditions.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 2:44 PM | Link to this
chuck -
“Nice use of Obama’s talking points, but how do you know that they will fail.”
sorry, bub, but I’ve been saying that for months. I don’t know if you’ve heard the news, but auto purchases had a small blip last month, but have been a drag on the retail numbers for nearly a year.
“WOULDN’T PEOPLE STILL NEED TO BUY CARS?”
wow - you’re right. thank god Ford is the only other automaker. oh, waitaminnit …
“The increase in THEIR production would certainly lead to a need for more employees and parts”
this may come as a surprise to you, but many foreign automakers use foreign parts suppliers.
“On the other hand, if the government says no, GM will of NECESSITY change their business practices.”
they don’t make burgers. automakers have the turning capacity of an aircraft carrier - they can change, yes, but it can’t happen overnight.
By Gale
February 25, 2009 2:45 PM | Link to this
“Demand won’t change because GM goes out of business.” I thought we learned about bailing out automakers with Chrysler a while back. These are the same arguments. If GM fails, another automaker will get that business. If the factory is not making cars, it will likely make something else.
By chuck
February 25, 2009 2:46 PM | Link to this
Histrionics again AW? Talk about yawning.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 2:47 PM | Link to this
GtG -
thought of you tonight - when I got off the train, there were a few songbirds out, doing what they do best!! between that and the crocuses (crocusi??) in full bloom, spring is right around the corner - woowoo!!
By Bruno
February 25, 2009 2:49 PM | Link to this
I suggest you look at the number of people MARTA employs. You need people to maintain trains, run ticket booths, provide security, operate snack bars. Those are ongoing jobs.
USinUK—Thank you very much for proving the point that 2D, chuck, and I have been trying to make by selecting MARTA as your example of how the government can provide jobs better than the private sector can. In case you didn’t know, MARTA is a perennial money hole, bereft with inefficiency and corruption. Every MARTA board decision is politicized, with most decisions being made along racial lines.
And though you are uncomfortable with “doing nothing”, I personally have more faith in Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” of the marketplace than Obama’s “heavy hand” of government intervention. Just my opinion, of course.
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 2:51 PM | Link to this
If a train serves multiple STATES and cites then it is national train if it serves one city or one state it is a state-operated train; there are no state-only operated train systems. A levee/dam/bridge serves a state and is paid for by the state—unless like in Hoover Dam it serves multiple states—or was built with national job programs. States pay their own interstate & infrastructure and all state representatives earmark federal bills for further funding. National school programs began because there was a large educational quality gap between poorer states or rural schools not receiving necessary funding from state tax base centered in urban areas. Feds got involved to establish a national standard for education evaluation—schools are not nationalized they are state run—thus states/cities/towns where parents value education tend to have higher standards for their students in public classrooms than states where parents don’t give a ruddy frackle about their child’s education.
By chuck
February 25, 2009 2:52 PM | Link to this
automakers have the turning capacity of an aircraft carrier - they can change, yes, but it can’t happen overnight.
Not really true USUK. Auto manufacturers change their production lines EVERY YEAR. Sometimes the changes are minor like the 2003 Impala to the 2004 Impala, but some are MAJOR. They completely revamped the Malibu platform from one year to the next. You know what they say…Necessity is the mother of invention.
By chuck
February 25, 2009 2:56 PM | Link to this
One other statement about the multiplier effect from the same article:
My advice to Team Obama: Do not be intellectually bound by the textbook Keynesian model. Be prepared to recognize that the world is vastly more complicated than the one we describe in ec 10. In particular, empirical studies that do not impose the restrictions of Keynesian theory suggest that you might get more bang for the buck with tax cuts than spending hikes.
By 2D
February 25, 2009 2:58 PM | Link to this
USinUK…
Others have done a great job railing (no pun intended) on the train from Disneyland to Vegas, but your reference and comparison of this project to MARTA actually makes my point for not only the train but the spending bill in general.
You correctly identify how MARTA provides not only service to many, many individuals, but it also provides jobs to thousands of people in the metro area. If the fares generated by MARTA covered the cost of maintaining and expanding MARTA, this would be a wonderful story. Unfortunately it doesn’t. Local governmental entities must use tax payer money to subsidize the MARTA network. Therefore, as wonderful as MARTA may be, it costs the tax payers money, so how good of an investment has it really been?
If programs or items in the spending bill come with requirements for the city, county, state to use future tax dollars to maintain the program or project originally paid for by the spending bill, then the ends do not justify the means. What LONG TERM good does a railway from Disneyland to Vegas provide anyone if once the project has been completed, the states of California and Nevada need to use tax payer subsidies to ensure the railway remains open? The answer… Nothing… In fact it causes more harm than good.
What long term stimulus does a new program provide to a state if they are required to pay for it with money from the state coffers once once the spending bill funds are gone? None. It does long term harm because it causes an even greater budget gap than was apparent prior to the spending bill.
This is EXACTLY the kind of “investment” we do not need from the spending bill.
Also…
I NEVER, EVER indicated we should choose to spend money on the military rather than roads. I suggested the best way to stimulate the economy and get both short and long term benefits are to cut taxes on people and business who actually pay taxes, brick and mortar infrastructure projects and defense. All three provide not only the short term stimulus everyone wants, but also a return on our investment.
As a tax payer (I’m one of the 50% of the workers who actually pay income tax) I want to see my money being spent on something worthwhile and something for which I, my children and my grand children will see a return. Much of what has been reported in the media does not cut the mustard. Some has, most hasn’t.
Just curious, USinUK… How much of YOUR income do you pay to good ole’ Uncle Sam???
By News Flash
February 25, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this
MARTA is the ninth largest transit system in the U.S. and North America that provides bus, rail and paratransit service. MARTA is unique for a system of its size, in that it receives no state funding. Knowing what you know about MARTA, feel free to connect those dots. Many cities are thrilled with the convenience and efficiency of their state-supplemented public transit systems.
By Bruno
February 25, 2009 3:19 PM | Link to this
From an article by Thomas Sowell:
“There is far more to fear from this administration than its amateurism in governing. The urgency with which it has rushed through a monumental spending bill, whose actual spending will not be completed even after 2010, ought to set off alarm bells among those who are not in thrall to the euphoria of Obama’s presidency. The urgency was real, even if the reason given was phony. President Obama’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, let slip a valuable clue when he said that a crisis should not go to waste, that a crisis is an opportunity to do things that you could not do otherwise. Think about the utter cynicism of that. During a crisis, a panicked public will let you get away with things you couldn’t get away with otherwise. A corollary of that is that you had better act quickly while the crisis is at hand, without Congressional hearings or public debates about what you are doing. Above all, you must act before the economy begins to recover on its own.
“The party line is that the market has failed so disastrously that only the government can save us. It is proclaimed in Washington and echoed in the media. The last thing the administration can risk is delay that could allow the market to begin recovering on its own. That would undermine, if not destroy, a golden opportunity to restructure the American economy in ways that would allow politicians to micro-manage other sectors of the economy the way they have micro-managed the housing market into disaster.”
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 3:25 PM | Link to this
chuck -
“Auto manufacturers change their production lines EVERY YEAR”
those changes are years in the planning - they didn’t wake up one morning in September and say “hey! I know!! let’s start making diesel cars!!” then by the end of the year have them in production. that’s why yearly modifications are small ones - and they only make a couple of big changes a decade.
2D -
“How much of YOUR income do you pay to good ole’ Uncle Sam???”
so kind of you to be concerned - yes, as a US citizen, I still have to file taxes despite the fact that none of my income is US-based. the US is one of a very few countries that I am aware of that require citizens to declare income even when you’re a non-resident. While I am able to off-set the taxes I owe to the US with the taxes that I pay to the UK, I am still on the hook.
“If the fares generated by MARTA covered the cost of maintaining and expanding MARTA, this would be a wonderful story”
and if the bigots in Cobb and Gwinett had voted to allow MARTA back in the 1970s, then the fares generated by the much larger ridership would be incrementally higher than what it is currently for a service that gets you near places, but rarely to them (the airport being the exception).
Brunooooooooooooooooooooooooo -
” I personally have more faith in Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” of the marketplace than Obama’s “heavy hand” of government intervention. Just my opinion, of course.”
yep. and we’re all entitled to one.
what did you think of Obama’s tone last night?? I was telling Mara earlier that I thought it was exactly the “nothing to fear” tone I was hoping for.
et toi? que pense-toi?
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 3:30 PM | Link to this
I am a socialist. If you want MY TAX money; be prepared to spend it on programs that benefit society as a whole not for private enterprises that fail because of financial mismanagement and lack of oversight.
USinUk, while I might agree that Las Vegas is going no where (a. it is a city) I would argue that Disneyland/world is a very private corporation. Disney Mgmt can close Disneyland because Disneyworld is doing better economically and there is nothing the state of California or the state of Nevada can do about it. One Disney is in Anaheim one is in Orlando—both are already served by all airlines and bus systems and highways. What happens if you build the train and its costs (like the cost of RT on Amtrak vs airlines) is too expensive for the average tourist thus they do not use it? Btw, Amtrak is serving both locations—already receiving national subsidies.
By Bruno
February 25, 2009 3:34 PM | Link to this
what did you think of Obama’s tone last night?? I was telling Mara earlier that I thought it was exactly the “nothing to fear” tone I was hoping for.
I didn’t watch the whole speech but, frankly, it sounded almost as if he was trying to convince himself of something that he is either uncertain of, or knows is dead wrong. I get the same impression while playing poker from people who are trying to bluff.
et toi? que pense-toi?
Je pense, donc je suis.
By USinUK
February 25, 2009 3:41 PM | Link to this
“Je pense, donc je suis.”
J’ai faim, donc je mange. Suppahtime!! have a good evening
hasta la pasta
By 2D
February 25, 2009 3:50 PM | Link to this
USinUK…
So, it’s the fault of the biggots in Cobb and Gwinnett country that MARTA cannot operate efficiently?
At the end of the day, MARTA requires subsidies. It costs the tax payers of Fulton and DeKalb counties money and does not provide anything close to fair return. It was not and continues to not be a good investment. If MARTA required Cobb and Gwinnett riders to break even, then it should not have been built. If MARTA new they would only have Fulton and DeKlab counties for ridership it should have designed a system that could be supported by those two counties.
It sounds as though at the end of the day, you file a tax return but since you give such a large portion to the Queen you are not required to send anything to Uncle Sam. So you are not seeing any of your hard earned money get flushed down the tubes, are you?
By Gale
February 25, 2009 3:53 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, but what is the problem with AmTrak that ridership is low? I suggest it is location and speed. Americans have very little vacation time, so they want to get to their destination fast. If the train stops in every town, the trip will be longer than a flight. An express train might actually make money. No, it cannot stop in every small town. But New York-Memphis-Atlanta-Orlando-Miami? New York-Chicago-St Louis-New Orleans||LA? Would it be a viable alternative to air travel?
By Bruno
February 25, 2009 3:59 PM | Link to this
and if the bigots in Cobb and Gwinett had voted to allow MARTA back in the 1970s, then the fares generated by the much larger ridership would be incrementally higher than what it is currently for a service that gets you near places, but rarely to them (the airport being the exception).
Yep, it’s all the (white) bigots’ fault that MARTA loses money every year. Pristine logic there, USinUK.
Out of curiosity, do you know WHY MARTA doesn’t directly service the Braves stadium?? Because black bigots like Joseph Lowery organized protests in the early 1970s to preserve “historic neighborhoods”, and prevented MARTA from running where it needed to go. As such, to get to the Braves, you have to transfer to a shuttle bus which lets you out a block or so from the stadium. Then, to add insult to injury, the Atlanta City Council voted several years ago to force people to walk through Underground Atlanta before being able to get on the shuttle bus in an effort to boost sagging business.
To me, MARTA represents all that is wrong about trying to mix social goals with business considerations. As such, forgive me if I have little faith in the latest Democratic effort to give the government one more chance to prove me right. And don’t even get me started on the Atlanta Airport……
By Lyrazel
February 25, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
Yes, Gale! But YOU talk cities—far different from private theme parks—aren’t they? As far as I know a national high speed rail is what most people feel they want before they see the bill. It might be efficient if there was not a superior highway system already in place; it might be more used if there were no airports serving these same locations with planes that can travel NY-CA in four hours as opposed to say 23 (bullet train, we can dream). Is building a new train more fiscally responsible than maintaining current infrastructures? Perhaps when auto tourism is abandoned and autos retired a full rail system would be nice. Its just significant distances needed to be covered in America (vs comparison to Eurorail); there would be no big savings as far as fuel consumption; and would not benefit small towns/large cities that make a significant living off interstate commerce. I remember when trains served almost everywhere—nostalgia greets me with this issue—but those days are gone like manufacturing jeans & TV sets is gone from America. Ridership on Amtrak is so low because people don’t want to spend 62 hours going from NY to CA, ridership is low because people traveling from ATL to Tucson need to transfer in 3 major cities not on direct route (washington, kansas city, New Orleans), so why bother? Ridership is low because trains serve fewer cities and cost more than air travel and bus travel, and a host of complications/ Public transportation is low because of apathy toward using public transportation instead of private—its so inconvenient—believe me, I bought our first car when I was 50—I do not have a driver license—I know inconvenience—
If we really want to fund public transportation lets get it in major cities that are gridlocked 2x daily—get people out of private cars and on public transport. A funky train from ATL to Orlando won’t help the folks in Peachtree City get to the airport, will it?
By Bruno
February 25, 2009 4:52 PM | Link to this
Great—just in:
“The Democratic-controlled House approved $410 billion legislation Wednesday that boosted domestic programs, bristled with earmarks and chipped away at policies left behind by the Bush administration. The vote was 245-178, largely along party lines.
Republicans assailed the measure as too costly — particularly on the heels of a $787 billion stimulus bill that President Barack Obama signed last week. But Democrats jabbed back.
The debate occurred one day after Obama told Congress in a prime time television address that he intends to cut deficits in half over the next four years, and one day before he submits tax and spending plans for the coming year. Given the extraordinary costs of the financial industry bailout and the stimulus, the White House projects this year’s budget shortfall will be $1.5 trillion, triple the previous record of $455 billion in 2008”.
I give up.
By American Woman
February 25, 2009 5:03 PM | Link to this
I LUUUUUUUUUV my car! V-6 power surging beneath me, stereo blasting, smoooove handling and control…. TAKE that lane!! Take it! Yes! Yes! Yes!
I also enjoy the convenience of riding the train into town (although waiting an hour at night after a concert is a pain…) If MARTA went more places, I’d take it more often. My question is, if the EUROPEANS can implement public transit so successfully, enabling one to zip around through cities, zip from city to city, and take buses to and from outlying towns right from the train stations…. why can’t WE? I mean, we’re AMERICANS! We’re not quitters. Are we?
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 8:23 AM | Link to this
AW Please STFU! You are just too stupid to have an opinion. You car is your stupid machine, get rid of it and get something enviromentally friendly! Only poor people will ever take the train in the United States. Train are inconvienent. NONE in the US make money. NONE, the Subway in NYC loses the least, but it still loses money. Public transportation isn’t an option, because people don’t use it! Why don’t you go visit the train president! Barry and use public transportation up there! (DUMBASS!) I can’t believe how stupid you really are!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 8:34 AM | Link to this
It’s not the fault of Gwinnett or Cobb that the BLACK run MARTA is such a clusterflop! STFU! People are paying out the ying yang in Europe for high petrol taxes and use public transportation, Americans don’t and won’t! Why bring MARTA to Gwinnett? SO more gangs can move in? WE don’t want MARTA cuz it sucks!
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 8:36 AM | Link to this
Bruno & 2D -
every mass trans system that I know of is subsidized - in the US and in Europe. why? because 1) it’s beneficial to people to have an inexpensive and efficient way to get to work, school and to any services they need (like doctors, grocery, etc) and 2) it’s better for the environment than continually building and expanding roads.
Bruno -
“Because black bigots like Joseph Lowery organized protests in the early 1970s to preserve “historic neighborhoods”, and prevented MARTA from running where it needed to go”
wow. so you’re equating “don’t destroy Sweet Auburn” (and pay homeowners a pittance of what the house is worth) with “we don’t want MARTA because it will bring CRIME (in HUGE air quotes) to Cobb County”.
while I’ve never been to the Ted, I went to loads of games at Fulton Co Stadium - we just went to the GA State/Capitol station and walked across. are you saying that’s no longer an option when the Ted is right next to where the old stadium used to be?
2D -
“So, it’s the fault of the biggots in Cobb and Gwinnett country that MARTA cannot operate efficiently?”
yes - MARTA basically serves the people who are already in town, not the majority of workers who work in town live in the ‘burbs like Cobb and Gwinett. take a spin on the I-75 parking lot around 7:30 in the morning or 4:30 in the afternoon - imagine what it would be like if we could get at least 30% of them off the road and into mass trans like a train - heck, that number of riders each day would improve MARTA’s profit margin. think they wouldn’t ride? remember gas prices last summer??
By Gale
February 26, 2009 8:38 AM | Link to this
Trains, and why can’t we (do as the Euro train systems)? One word, sprall. (The spelling doesn’t look right, But you know what I mean.) Inconvenience is a major factor keeping people from travelling by train, for work and pleasure. If I want to ride Marta, I face a 20 minute drive to a station, a 15 minute ride on the train (once it arrives at the station), and a 15 minute walk to work from the destination station. At minimum, three times the normal drive time. Since I cannot shed my car, my cost doubles.
Lyrazel, you have all the reasons why trains are not going to be worth the expense. I cannot disagree, however much I want to see a resurgence of a rail system in this country. I really think the first step would be a major overhaul of the existing freight rails which are privately owned. They are in bad condition and do not support high speed. There is no bailout money to help them do that, is there?
Your comment about small town business is what I was thinking about in the New York-Chicago route I described yesterday. Toledo was in the middle of that line in the 20s. There is quite a history surrounding the time.
By Gale
February 26, 2009 8:42 AM | Link to this
Gandalf, why are gangs so pervasive? Maybe because the justice system has been eroded to the point they feel free to do as they please?
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 8:47 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“I would argue that Disneyland/world is a very private corporation. Disney Mgmt can close Disneyland because Disneyworld is doing better economically and there is nothing the state of California or the state of Nevada can do about it.”
Disneyland has been in Anaheim for more than 50 years - they have built their own internal infrastructure, not to mention spent billions on the rides, attractions and other facilities. The idea that Disney might up stakes and move, spending additional billions in the relocation and rebuild is about as likely as Las Vegas relocating to Scottsdale.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 8:53 AM | Link to this
Gale -
was it you or Mara who said they liked Lovecraft?
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 9:09 AM | Link to this
USinUK
From 1994: “The Republican National Committee yesterday launched a $500,000 advertising campaign criticizing President Clinton’s health care plan and calling for scaled back insurance reforms that GOP officials said could win bipartisan support in Congress now.
The only problem is that Bill Clinton took office in 1992 where the 103rd Congress had a Democratic Majority, a majority they had held since 1952. The Democrats had 258 members while the Republicans had 175 in the house and in the Senate, The Republicans had 44 members and the Democrats had 56, so the Democrats had a sizeable majority in both houses.
But the real problem is that I went back and looked at the bills that were presented to the 103rd, and I simply didn’t see a single bill that even proposed a health plan of any kind. This incredibly Democratically dominated congress passed NAFTA, but strangely enough, they weren’t even given the opportunity to vote on a health plan.
So for two years, the Clintons offered nothing in the way of a health care plan, but then the Republicans get blamed for blocking it in 1994. Girl you gotta stop buying into the bullsh1t. They will tell you anything to get elected. Anything.
At least Clinton’ s obvious lie was based on the fact that he could have managed Universal Health Care considering the Democrats HAD TOTAL CONTROL of Washington and if he had enough interest, but in 2004, John Kerry actually claimed that he would enact Universal Health Care with a Congress that was completely controlled by Republicans. At least America was not dumb enough to buy that one.
Still running. (and hitting)
By Gale
February 26, 2009 9:21 AM | Link to this
I have read Lovecraft and I think he is a genius in the horror genre. I don’t reread Lovecraft because the stories scare the willies out of me.
Disney has tried exporting the theme park to other countries with very limited success. Euorpeans I’ve talked to in Orlando told me Disney Paris was nothing and the much prefer Orlando. The Asian visitors I’ve seen at Disney Orlando don’t seem as open to conversation, so I don’t know how they view those parks.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 9:23 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
The only problem is that Bill Clinton took office in 1992 where the 103rd Congress had a Democratic Majority, a majority they had held since 1952.
(sigh)
one day, I hope you learn the difference between election years and when people take office.
Clinton was elected in November 1992. He took office in January 1993, which was when he announced the creation of the task force. He didn’t announce plans until near the end of September 1993 - a bill wasn’t even drafted until November of 1993. There were skirmishes prior to the bill, but the battle began in earnest in the new year. An election year, if you’ll recall (which, given that we’re talking 1994, you should recall that year well)
By Gale
February 26, 2009 9:38 AM | Link to this
USinUK, remind me to never debate history with you. :-)
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 9:38 AM | Link to this
Gale -
oh, good! I’m glad I remembered correctly - there was a blurb in this morning’s paper about some group who used the song “It’s Beginning to Look a Lot Like Fish-Men” (written by the HP Lovecraft Historical Society) and made a music video of it …
www. metro.co.uk / fishmen
from the write-up, it should be more funny than frightening.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 9:43 AM | Link to this
USinUK
You don’t get it. (Actually, of course you get it, but you aren’t about to admit what liars the Democrats are) The Republicans also didn’t take office until 1995, so however you avoid the truth, Bill Clinton had two full years to fulfill his promises and he didn’t even try. You are a smart person. Now why in the world would you avoid the truth and cover up for those liars?
And are you saying that Clinton did not know that he would have to get any health bill approved through Congress. Hell, why would any president need to fulfill and promise. By your logic, they could ALWAYS blame it on Congress. he had a better chance than anyone. FOLLOW THE MONEY. The health industry came out of the Clinton years as a monster. The Clintons promised to bring them under control and they did the exact opposite.
When the Clintons took office, they promised Universal Health care. By the time they left, the Health Lobby was 1,000 more powerful and the HMOs were making decisions over the will of doctors.
And by the way, I understand the Big Picture. The Big Pictures is that I am a White businessman so with the new politically correct America, I go to the back of the line. I haven’t a chance of getting ANY government contracts and because my grandparents (who were yellow dog Democrats) might have made decisions that excluded hiring people of color, that by the standards of the all too beneficent Democrats, guilt should be genetic. So because my skin is the same color of people who were unfair, I should be punished. Now tell me that is not the big picture.
I’m a little sick of the big picture. I don’t give a damn that construction workers in Nevada will get to work on a rail line for a couple of years. When is it my turn? When will the big picture include a few small pixels for me and others like me. Does the Big Picture mean that because I don’t have a prayer of getting any of this money, does the Big Picture mean that I don’t need to pay my taxes so The Big Picture can be kind to people that i honestly couldn’t care less about?
it’s unfair, it’s racist and you should be ashamed of yourself for supporting it.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 9:47 AM | Link to this
Gale
She completely missed the point. The Clintons had two years to fulfill their promise. The Clintons lied. The Health Insurance Industry became more powerful than Doctors and we all got screwed. So why in the hell would she or you or anyone else defend what they did? Are you glad that HMOs now tell doctors what to do? Is that working well for you?
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 9:57 AM | Link to this
The gangs are so prevasive because no one will sen the illegals home! Illegals suck, we should have a trail of tears for them and force them all to walk back to Mexico!
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“You are a smart person. Now why in the world would you avoid the truth and cover up for those liars?”
your point was that the Dems defeated the bill. you were wrong. now, who isn’t acknowledging the truth. what they did was not stand united behind the Clinton bill (hey, we’re democrats, infighting is our calling card) - that’s not to say that the dems didn’t have similar bills, which is what led to the defeat
lengthy from wiki, but worth the read:
Opposition to the Clinton plan was initiated by William Kristol and his policy group Project for the Republican Future, which is widely credited with orchestrating the plan’s ultimate defeat through a series of now legendary “policy memos” faxed to Republican leaders Conservatives, libertarians, and the health insurance industry proceeded to stage a campaign against the plan, criticizing it as being overly bureaucratic and restrictive of patient choice:
The conservative Heritage Foundation argued “the Clinton Administration is imposing a top-down, command-and-control system of global budgets and premium caps, a superintending National Health Board and a vast system of government sponsored regional alliances, along with a panoply of advisory boards, panels, and councils, interlaced with the expanded operations of the agencies of Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Labor, issuing innumerable rules, regulations, guidelines, and standards.”
The effort also included extensive advertising criticizing the plan, including the famous Harry and Louise ad paid for by the Health Insurance Association of America, which depicted a middle-class couple despairing over the plan’s supposed complex, bureaucratic nature. Time, CBS News, CNN, the Wall Street Journal and the Christian Science Monitor ran stories questioning whether there really was a health-care crisis. Op-eds were written against it, including one in The Washington Post by University of Virginia Professor Martha Derthick that said:
“ In many years of studying American social policy, I have never read an official document that seemed so suffused with coercion and political naivete … with its drastic prescriptions for controlling the conduct of state governments, employers, drug manufacturers, doctors, hospitals and you and me. ”
U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan qualified his agreement that “there is no health care crisis” by stating “there is an insurance crisis” but also indicated “anyone who thinks [the Clinton health care plan] can work in the real world as presently written isn’t living in it.” Meanwhile, Democrats, instead of uniting behind the President’s original proposal, offered a number of competing plans of their own. Some criticized the plan from the left, preferring a Canadian-style single payer system.
In August 1994, Democratic Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell introduced a compromise proposal that would have delayed requirements of employers until 2002, and exempted small businesses. However, “Even with Mitchell’s bill, there were not enough Democratic Senators behind a single proposal to pass a bill, let alone stop a filibuster.”
A few weeks later, Mitchell announced that his compromise plan was dead, and that health care reform would have to wait at least until the next Congress. The defeat weakened Clinton politically, emboldened Republicans, and contributed to the notion that Hillary Clinton was a “big-government liberal” as decried by conservative opponents.
The 1994 mid-term election became a “referendum on big government — Hillary Clinton had launched a massive health-care reform plan that wound up strangled by its own red tape.” In that 1994 election, the Republican revolution, led by Newt Gingrich, gave the GOP control of both the House of Representatives and the Senate for the first time since the 83rd Congress of 1953–1954, ending prospects for a Clinton-sponsored health care overhaul. Comprehensive reform aimed at creating universal health care in the United States has not been seriously considered by Congress since.
“The Big Pictures is that I am a White businessman so with the new politically correct America, I go to the back of the line.”
yeah, the white man has it so hard today - whites still have lower rates of poverty (poverty rates for whites is 8.2%, for Asians, 10.2% for hispanics 20.6%, and for blacks 24.5% (http:// www.infoplease.com/ ipa/A0104520.html).
By Gale
February 26, 2009 10:02 AM | Link to this
“When the Clintons took office” The Clintons did not take office. Bill did. One of the biggests problems the bill faced was opposition to Hillary. How dare that uppity woman think she can influence policy! Bill used an individual who was smart, educated and passionate about the issue to help drive the process. If he had used a political hack, he might have made some progress. If the republicans had done something during the entire Clinton administration besides attacking him and trying to smear him, he might have accomplished something.
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 10:03 AM | Link to this
USinUk—I want to say first your comments about why we must bail out banks so greater disaster does not happen is correct—however much I rage against it as a yet another government subsidy.
Anaheim is served by an airport, train, by busses and served by road systems—that pass many towns that rely on auto traffic/tourist commerce. Small businesses and ranches populate the area between the destinations. The new rail will have to deal with eminent domain issues, building through Natl. Parks, construction over mountain chains and other stuff that aint in this budget for a zippy train to Disney from Vegas. Remember the Big Dig in Boston? Spent billions over-budget and that was just one city! Think of the trillions this project will actually need and at no time will the money spent building it ever result in its being more than a drain to the coffers of anyone involved.
Why does the idea of spending money no state budget actually has on some new thing make more sense than fixing up/maintaining what is already in place? Of course, the whole idea of spending revenue on maintenance of already existing infrastructure is boring! The money Obama is pledging is not a windfall and should never be seen as surplus wealth—its NOT!
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I don’t give a damn about what was said in WIKI. Stop making excuses for liars. You too, Gale.
Go here and watch an ad from 1992
http:// sweetness-light.com/ archive/bill-clintons-1992-campaign-promises
with Bill Clinton first promising change, of course talking the talk of class warfare, and then:
“It starts with a tax cut for the middle class”
that quickly became the biggest TAX INCREASE for the middle class in our nation’s history.
“It includes Nartional Health Insurance”
Bwa, ha, ha, ha, ha.
“A major investment in education”
No. A major investment in lobbying by the NEA, and a further decline in the standard of education.
“Tough trade laws and no more tax brfeaks for major corporations to move our jobs overseas”
The democratically controlled congress PASSED NAFTA, for God’s sake.
GET A CLUE FOLKS. Support who you want, but ignoring campaign after campaign of nothing but lie after lie after lie makes you look gullible and foolish.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 10:12 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“USinUK, remind me to never debate history with you. :-)”
haha … that’s why my favorite saying is “everyone is entitled to their own opinions. they’re not entitled to their own facts.”
;-)
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 10:14 AM | Link to this
Gale
How long can you tap dance? I thought that only Bill was elected, too, but the dumb SOB handed over his biggest campaign promise over to his wife who started having closed door meetings and when it was all over WE WERE SCREWED AGAIN.
Damn, ladies. Are you really this clueless? In my last post, I posted a Clinton campaign ad where he lied from the first word to the last and you guys are still defending the jerks. We do get the government we deserve. Unfortunately, I get the same government that you guys deserve.
By Gale
February 26, 2009 10:19 AM | Link to this
USinUK, the “fishmen” story was one of the Lovecraft stories that really creeped me out. Read it sometime… at night with the lights off in the rest of the house. Then go near any body of water at night.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 10:21 AM | Link to this
USinUK
whites still have lower rates of poverty (poverty rates for whites is 8.2%, for Asians, 10.2% for hispanics 20.6%, and for blacks 24.5% (http:// www.infoplease.com/ ipa/A0104520.html).*
Well, hell. That makes it OK. Pardon the flock out of me for wanting fair treatment. After all people of my skin color do well. Why in the world would I ever complain about anything?
Do you honestly really not get it? Do you honestly think that I should not be given fair treatment because people with the same color skin that I have tend to work hard and do well?
I have to work today because I need another $15,000 in order to pay my f^cking taxes. This is not the day to tell me that it is OK that I am f^cked because of the color of my skin.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 10:24 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“USinUk—I want to say first your comments about why we must bail out banks so greater disaster does not happen is correct—however much I rage against it as a yet another government subsidy.”
thanks - the most incredibly ironic thing about the bank bailouts is that the most vociferous bloggy opponents I’ve read to the bank bailouts have been on the left. forget speaking as a Dem - as a taxpayer and a capitalist (regardless of what Bruno, chuck and TOJ think), I am appalled that we are in such a situation. It absolutely galls me that the federal government is giving them money to stay afloat (I mean, fercryingoutloud - they’re BANKERS - if anyone should be able to manage money, they should). but, above and beyond, I’m a realist - the market meltdown we experienced last September was a warning of how bad things could be if we let the monsters fail.
“The money Obama is pledging is not a windfall and should never be seen as surplus wealth—its NOT!”
agreed - but, then, so was the tobacco money that seemed to go to everything but anti-smoking campaigns. (sigh)
By Gale
February 26, 2009 10:32 AM | Link to this
TOJ, you are back to the -only democrats lie and republicans never lie- They are politicians and they all lie, TOJ. And there you go again with the uppity woman arguement. Bill was a “dumb SOB” for trusting his wife. The reality is possibly that Bill would never have made it to the White House without Hillary propping up his career.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 10:35 AM | Link to this
Barry thinks the Goverment should just take everything over. His chief asshat, Joe Biden has the Internet NUMBER to give to you. Just go home tonight and rest ASSured that [{dum bass!}] Joe and Barry will take care of your car payment and house payment! Go SOCIALism! I ASSuME you get the big picture? DUmbassi! AW is queen of the Dumbassi and EXPAT is running for minister of propoganda!
By Gale
February 26, 2009 10:35 AM | Link to this
TOJ, have you considered moving somewhere away from Atlanta? Somewhere that, perhaps, blacks do not make up a big part of the population? You might be happier.
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 10:40 AM | Link to this
Gale, nostalgia rules the heart strings but this old biddy keeps a tight grip on her purse and wishes the nation she lives in had the same concept of fiscal responsibility.
One thing Europe does to maintain its fantastic rail system is tax petro. Most gas is 7/gal. & more—that tax goes to maintaining roads & rail. Should America adopt a $5 tax on gas (o hear the squawking) we would be able to build as well as maintain a far superior rail system in this country too.
All private rail companies receive government subsidies, indeed all transportation systems do too: planes trains & barges.
USinUk—its kind of obvious to me that you have never tried acquiring government contracts in GA and exactly what TOJ rants about actually does occur. You can quote all the statistics you want about national averages by skin color—however—being a white male business owner will rarely garner a government contract in GA.
By AW
February 26, 2009 10:41 AM | Link to this
It’s been my observation that men with regular sized functioning organs aren’t threatened by Hillary Clinton, and REAL MEN aren’t outraged by the idea of trying to ensure sick children have access to medical care in America, the most bountiful country on earth. Of course your opinions may vary. Heh…
BTW, was anyone else digging Hillary’s uber PINK jacket on Tuesday? Legally blonde and still going strong. “I’m Elle Woods, beeeeyotch!” Haha!
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 10:43 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“Unfortunately, I get the same government that you guys deserve.”
that’s how the system works - we were stuck with a system run by a guy that people felt like “they could have a beer with” - and whatta lotta good that did - 2 recessions, billions down the hole in Iraq, and the constitution treated like toilet paper after a Tex-Mex from a truckstand.
“Pardon the flock out of me for wanting fair treatment.”
the point is that whites still get better than fair treatment - we have lower poverty rates, we have lower incarceration rates, we have higher standard of living. and, despite set-asides, white guys still come out on top for gummint contracts. I’m sorry that you have another $15K to pay in taxes - but that sounds more like something you need to take up with your accountant who, evidently, has done a pi$$ poor job of helping you with your quarterly estimates.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 10:46 AM | Link to this
and GtG wants to be hired as Communications Director.
(hey, you gotta admit, the pressers and SOTUs would be hysterical!)
By Gale
February 26, 2009 10:57 AM | Link to this
building on Lyrazel’s comments re: white males and gov contracts. A white male friend recently asked my partner and I if we would figurehead a business so it would appear ‘woman-owned’. TOJ, maybe that method would improve your chances at gov contracts.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this
EXPAT: For the next administration, I don’t know if I could work for you! I would issue STFU’s instead of SOTU’s.
AW (ASSWIPEr) It’s been my observation that men with regular sized functioning organs don’t talk to AW, because the know she is a [dumbass!] who speeds around in her “v-6” car? and REAL MEN are outraged by the idea of trying to ensure sick children have access to medical care in America when thier w******* mothers have children out of wedlock? STFU #1 goes to ASSWiper!
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this
AW: Hilary is one of those people who is damned/slammed no matter what she does, and she has a frumpy figure so many women her age have so the fact the press keeps making unflattering remarks about her is irrelevant. She is a brilliant woman and continues to serve her country. Maybe if there was more fashion interest and availability toward working older women we might not look as frumpy in pink as Miss. Wood’s poodle.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this
During an STFU the President would walk down the aisle and Body slam the biggest idiot in congress. Joe Biden as President of the Senate would be first, then Nancy Pelopenisian then … well you get the picture. No press conference, just a STFU!
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“USinUk—its kind of obvious to me that you have never tried acquiring government contracts in GA and exactly what TOJ rants about actually does occur.”
I’ve worked for state gov - sorry, but I’ve seen it from the inside and I can tell you that white guys still get contracts and favorable treatment, despite set asides for women and racial minorities. I’ve also worked for companies that have received Federal contracts - and, while they usually require a certain % of the employees to be minorities, the majority of employees are usually still white.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this
GtG-
“I don’t know if I could work for you!” haha … I’m a treat to work for - I give birthdays off
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this
GtG -
“During an STFU the President would walk down the aisle and Body slam the biggest idiot in congress.”
that’s it??? I was expecting a lot more than that - diatribes against France, bombs dropped on Greenpeace (just cuz ya can), and maybe a ritual slaughter and barbecue of an endangered species … or maybe a cat.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 11:22 AM | Link to this
Gale
Yea Gale. It’s all about race. Is there a liberal on this board that can actually think one inch beyond what you are told to think?
It’s about fairness, Gale. Get your head out of the sand and look around. The economic crisis that we are going through stemmed from YOUR party insisting that their voting block should be able to buy houses that they can’t afford.
Why am I even trying? The more solid my argument, the more you guys will be intent on making me look like some sort of racist because I want fair treatment.
You are both good people, but your politics are criminal and those politics are killing our country.
USinUK
Bla, bla, bla. Bush never promised health care. Clinton did. But instead we were given a horrible system that makes health insurance companies deciding the length of hospital stays. He promised to stop business going over seas and he and a heavily controlled democratic Congress passed NAFTA.
And now you refuse to discuss it because you know that I am exactly right. Is this how you win all your arguments?
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 11:27 AM | Link to this
Gale
TOJ, maybe that method would improve your chances at gov contracts.
If there is no problem, why would anyone need to do that? I would put my work up against anyone in town. Why would I need to pretend to be a minority owned business in order to be treated fairly? This is what your party has created. You must be very proud.
And BTW, my business partner is a Black man, but he has always refused to fill out the papers. He has this crazy idea that a man should be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin. What an idiot.
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 11:32 AM | Link to this
Working FOR the state and garnering state contracts especially with a privately owned small business are different—sorry. Its not you don’t understand prejudice USinUK—-you do and are quite vocal to criticize them who are obstinate racist buffoons. I enjoy the gumption you express and share much of your ideology concerning equality but I do feel TOJ is on the money as far as being white male trying for contracts and sent to the end of the line.
Certainly now in the 21st century we should cease using race or sex as a qualifier for loans or opportunities or government contracts. While everyone can say historically such prejudices were rampant in the country we should be able to hire the most qualified, right?
By Gale
February 26, 2009 11:32 AM | Link to this
TOJ, someone lied to you if they told you life would be fair. Sorry, life is not fair. Stop worrying about life not being fair to you and you will be able to concentrate on what you can do instead of what you cannot do that is someone else’s fault. And MY party did nothing because I am independant and vote depending on the candidate, not the party. I vote republican more often than not.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 11:33 AM | Link to this
Gale
Bill was a “dumb SOB” for trusting his wife. The reality is possibly that Bill would never have made it to the White House without Hillary propping up his career.
She blew it, Gale. She wasn’t qualified to take on the socialist conversion of 1/10 of our economy. She didn’t understand politics of the day and she dropped the ball. He WAS an idiot for putting her in charge. It was the ultimate nepotism. Who cares that she was a woman. SHE WAS NOT QUALIFIED AND SHE DROPPED THE BALL. Big duh.
By Gale
February 26, 2009 11:38 AM | Link to this
TOJ, years ago I was in school with a black woman who was mightily chagrined by the reality that she was the first in our class to be hired. She was of equal ability, but the reason she was hired was to fill a double quota. It was insulting to her that she was not judged on her abilities. But she still took the job because it was a good job. just say’n
By AW
February 26, 2009 11:39 AM | Link to this
Lyra, so true! “Damned/slammed” describes it well. But I didn’t think she looked frumpy; I thought she rocked it! Her perseverence in the face off all she’s endured inspires me to look past the throngs of completely sexist ay-holes that still thrive in this country. Fortunately, there ARE men secure enough in themselves to not feel threatened by a smart, strong woman, or require she wear stilettos on the campaign trail to be deemed an acceptable form of woman.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this
EXPAT: I like wildlife, Polar Bear meat is too greasy, what did you have in mind? Rhino stew? Green Peace gets in the way of whalers, so they are cool, we could execute PETA and MABLA members on the lawn after as a sporting event. Have Tiger vs. Phil in noggin driving contest down the Mall! What an excited sport! France? Didn’t Layfatte help us out in 1777? He had brass cannon balls! So even though they have sucked a bit lately, no, Japan and it whalers we can nuke, hell, nuke just nuke them nipponeses bastages for GP!
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 11:42 AM | Link to this
TOJ I faced a $70,000 hospital/doctor bill because my insurance company said because I did not travel 89 miles to a doctor-facility in their system they would not cover it. I was later dropped by said insurance company. One of the best ways we can cut health care costs is by eliminating insurance. If the average couple pays 1000/mo in health insurance costs but only uses 100.00 in service for a year who gets the bounty? Um isn’t it time we stop an industry that is not there to benefit its customers?
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 11:42 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
But instead we were given a horrible system that makes health insurance companies deciding the length of hospital stays. He promised to stop business going over seas and he and a heavily controlled democratic Congress passed NAFTA.
what? so you’re blaming Clinton for a crappy health insurance system?? and all this time, I thought you were a free-market guy - let the free market decide! if you don’t like your health insurance, change! don’t let them dictate your hospital stays! (but, of course, that’s not rationing … oh, no! … only eeeeeevil nationalized health care does that)
as for NAFTA - fercryingoutloud, would you learn a little history, please? first of all, Bush SENIOR worked on the NAFTA treaty for nearly 3 years, then signed the NAFTA agreement just prior to leaving office. it then needed to go for congressional approval, which it only barely got (passing by 30-some-odd votes) - with nearly unanimous GOP approval and only 102 democrats. Clinton made adjustments to Bush Senior’s agreement, but there were things in the original treaty that were specifically there to benefit Mexico (like textiles manufacturing).
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 11:46 AM | Link to this
USinUK, Gale
I’m sorry. This is not a good day to tell me that it’s OK that I am treated unfairly. The reason I owe so much is because I budgeted almsot 50 grand to upgrade to HD. I was smart. I did the research. I bought an incredible new camera that cost less than 5 grand and I was expecting to pay well over 20. I did the research. I did the good thing and didn’t spend money on something that I didn’t need. So now I am sending that money that I saved off to Washington.
My mother loves trains and we had planned on doing this in the Spring: http://www. vacationsbyrail. com/canada/index.html but i guess our gumment needs the money to build a train instead of us enjoying the money.
I haven’t told her yet. If I didn’t need to scrape up another 2 grand to add to the rest of my life savings, I might had still had the money. I was smart with my life savings. I have (had) cash. It’s gone because I bought the cheap camera. Understand now?
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 11:52 AM | Link to this
USinUK
what? so you’re blaming Clinton for a crappy health insurance system??
That would be a gigantic YES. He promised to fix it. He made it much worse. What about that don’t you understand?
Who passed NAFTA? Simple question.
Second simple question. Who had control of Congress when the bill was passed?
What about that don’t you understand?
By Gale
February 26, 2009 11:54 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel 11:42 ::applause:: As a healthy person who rarely uses insurance I have, I am waiting for the day when I need it and get cancelled because I cost too much.
USinUK, thanks for the NAFTA history lesson.
By Gale
February 26, 2009 11:57 AM | Link to this
TOJ, not that it is any of my business… But if you budgeted $50k and spend $5k, should you not have $45k lying around in the budget somewhere?
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 11:59 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“Certainly now in the 21st century we should cease using race or sex as a qualifier for loans or opportunities or government contracts. While everyone can say historically such prejudices were rampant in the country we should be able to hire the most qualified, right?”
first of all, thanks for the compliment :-)
secondly, the reason for set-asides is partially for reasons of racism - but, more importantly, it’s to overcome the good-ol-boy network. and, I’m sorry, but the best/cheapest/most qualified were not the people/businesses who were awarded contracts prior to set-asides - they were the people/businesses who were run by somebody’s brother-in-law, neighbor, etc. are set-asides a perfect cure for this ill? of course not - but it’s at least a wedge into the problem
lastly, not all contracts are set-asides - in the articles I found, they cited less than 30% of all state contracts - in other words, 70% can still go to white guys like TOJ.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 12:12 PM | Link to this
GtG - “I like wildlife, Polar Bear meat is too greasy, what did you have in mind? Rhino stew? Green Peace gets in the way of whalers, so they are cool, we could execute PETA and MABLA members on the lawn after as a sporting event. Have Tiger vs. Phil in noggin driving contest down the Mall! What an excited sport! France? Didn’t Layfatte help us out in 1777? He had brass cannon balls! So even though they have sucked a bit lately, no, Japan and it whalers we can nuke, hell, nuke just nuke them nipponeses bastages for GP!”
it’s not so much PETA, it’s the animal rights people who make PETA look like Sunday School that I would have you put their heads on pikes (not long after I moved here, animal rights activists dug up someone’s grandmother and stole her corpse because the guy worked for a pharma lab that tested on animals. I mean, honestly!). And, yes Lafayette did help us out in 1776 - glad to hear that makes them worthy of being spared in your books! (they have killer cheese and wine). And I’m with you on the Japanese whalers -
good grief. whoda thunk we’d be in agreement??? :-)
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Well, USinUk—the predominance of good-old-boy networks as well as nepotism is fairly entrenched in the city government in Atlanta. Its ‘minority’ run and every time I open this paper I see further instances of GA hiring under-or unqualified persons because of quotas that reek of corruption. I see schools that are loosing accreditation because the boards were not well trained for their jobs as overseers—jails that are operating illegally, city officials who cannot draw up working budgets, a predominance to hire consultants because no one understands their job and a really stupid git in the governors house who allowed rampant unchecked government to operate without standards to the jeopardy of all citizens. I would say that stupidity really has no race and for every example of a good-ol-boy network is another example of opposite race doing the same stupid good-ol-boy crap even if they are women.
2 you argue BIG major contracts and companies—I am using—small businesses examples. There is a huge difference of preferential treatment of large corporations in GA opposed to small business owners.By AW
February 26, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Okay, sooo…. if your homeowner’s association president promises to beautify the green space in your neighborhood with new landscaping, a playground, and some spiffy new walking trails, and then every time work gets started, YOUR KIDS tear up the space overnight with their ATVs, kill the new plants, and trash the playground equipment, then…. let me get this straight: It’s the HOA president’s fault, because HE PROMISED, and now it’s worse than before!
Or maybe it’s like this: You’re sick. Mom begins cooking you a big pot of chicken soup to make you feel better. Your 32-yr-old, 250-pound bi-polar brother who just got out of rehab keeps uriniating in the soup. Therefore, Mom’s a B!TCH.
Yes, Bill Clinton failed you. It all makes perfect sense now.
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 12:29 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
“He made it much worse. What about that don’t you understand?”
um. how he made it worse.
problems of rationed health care and how long you could stay in the hospital were “pre existing conditions” when he took office.
what I do understand is that all things bad come from Democrats and all things bright, shiney and true come from the GOP. got it.
as for what you owe on taxes - you didn’t budget enough in your quarterly estimates. that’s not the gummint’s fault - that’s either yours or your accountant’s.
“Who passed NAFTA? Simple question.”
again - Bush Sr. signed the treaty. a unanimous GOP - in fact, more GOP than Dems voted for it.
By Bruno
February 26, 2009 12:37 PM | Link to this
So why no discussion this AM about the Democratic spending spree?? You know, the one that just TRIPLED Bush’s highest deficit. I guess Obama is determined to make History one way or another.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 12:40 PM | Link to this
Gale
I said the conversion to HD. Two professional HD monitors. One top of the line, MAC Pro duel quad desktop with a main 500gig drive plus two 2 terrabite internal drives, 8 gig RAM, plus all brand new software which alone was well over two grand. Upgrading my 3-D software which was right at 4 grand. New, bigger tri-pod $2,200. HMI light kit added to my old news kit. Mattebox for the HD camera: $2,500. I still need more hard-drive storage. I still need more RAM. I still need to upgrade the OS of my old MAC so it will talk to the new MAC.
The only bright spot is if I had tried to do all this ten years ago, it would have costs close to 150 grand.
I worked deals and got the cost of all that to just under 30 grand. My old system wouldn’t even begin to edit HD. I don’t regret it, but the camera is like a guitar for a guitar player. It’s my Axe. I would have loved to own a new Panasonic 500, but instead, I have a nice camera that a lot of people are shooting wedding videos on. That’s why I needed the matte box. It’s a $2,500 accessory that adds a little but mostly makes the camera look like Hollywood.
Oh yea. THis is the best part. I have owned a really nice Sony Betacam package for years. I paid $25,000 dollars for it used, just before the Olympics. It originally costs well over 40. I started to put it on e-bay yesterday and saw one that had a slightly better lens than mine had a top bid of $109. One hundred and nine dollars.
I will throw it under a bus before I sell it for $109. And this is after I found out that the audio system that I used to produce the audio track for my first national cable show was now worth 17 dollars. I paid five grand for that. I just gave it to the kid across the street that wants to be a Hip Hop producer.
Not a good day. Sorry for the hysterics.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 12:52 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
*a predominance to hire consultants because no one understands their job *
I have wondered if anyone really understands about that. One of my best friends is a consultant that has gone from one government office to another basically doing the job of the incompetent government bureaucrats who honestly can’t pull a string out of their butts if their lives depend on it.
So the employee gets paid an outrageous amount for basically having the correct skin color and my friend is absolutely sticking it to them for doing simple organizational jobs that should be handled by a clerk. So the person that was hired because of quotas who should be paid 30 grand a year, but is making $100 grand a year hired my friend for another $300,000 a year to get the job done. So this wonderful system pays $400,000 to get $30,000 worth of work done. And people wonder why we do not want the government to control our lives.
But you are speaking to deaf ears here. They don’t want to hear this. The City of Atlanta is in the worst shape in it’s history and there hasn’t been a Republican in City Hall ever.
Why do we even try?
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 1:00 PM | Link to this
USinUK
I just told you how he made it worse. You will never admit that the democrats ever did anything wrong. Republicans usually do what they say they will which drive liberals crazy. They don’t want them to do what they promised. Republicans just want Democrats to break their promises, which they always do, but they also go out of their way to worsen the problems, (NAFTA and Health Care)
By USinUK
February 26, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
“I just told you how he made it worse.”
at the risk of a “nu-uh” “yuh-huh” argument - the problems you cited were there before Bill took office. in fact, during his tenure, the Democrats passed legislation requiring insurance companies to cover BC pills (yay!), stopped them from treating radical mastectomies as outpatient surgery (BIG yay!) and required insurance companies to cover overnight stays following a vaginal delivery (HOO-AH!)
the problems you cite started during the 1980s, not during Clinton’s administration.
I know you’re having a bad day - and I’m sorry to hear about your tax bill. But, really, you diminish your own arguments when you do your “Dems Evil/GOP Saints” routine. Especially when the facts just don’t bear them out.
and now, I’m going home and watching the Mad Men episode I taped earlier this week.
have a good night, all.
(Gale - I hope my bringing up the fish-men doesn’t give you flashbacks!!)
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 1:15 PM | Link to this
Democrats have never done anything that helped the country. EVER. They suck, just like AssWiper!
By Bruno
February 26, 2009 1:17 PM | Link to this
Well, TOJ, based on the deafening silence this AM regarding the Obama/Democratic tripling of Bush’s highest deficit, I guess that your assessment earlier was correct—Liberals are only against deficit spending when it is Republicans who are doing the spending.
The biggest bit of humor coming from the Obama speech has to be his promise to cut the budget deficit in half within four years. It almost sounds like a jewelry sale at Christmas promising 70% off of merchandise which was marked up 300% to begin with.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 1:18 PM | Link to this
AW:
WTF?
Okay, sooo…. if your homeowner’s association president promises to beautify the green space in your neighborhood with new landscaping, a playground, and some spiffy new walking trails, and then every time work gets started, YOUR KIDS tear up the space overnight with their ATVs, kill the new plants, and trash the playground equipment, then…. let me get this straight: It’s the HOA president’s fault, because HE PROMISED, and now it’s worse than before!
Or maybe it’s like this: You’re sick. Mom begins cooking you a big pot of chicken soup to make you feel better. Your 32-yr-old, 250-pound bi-polar brother who just got out of rehab keeps uriniating in the soup. Therefore, Mom’s a B!TCH.
Yes, Bill Clinton failed you. It all makes perfect sense now.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 1:19 PM | Link to this
USinUK
YOu didn’t watch the Clinton political ad, did you?
By Gale
February 26, 2009 1:22 PM | Link to this
TOJ, Is this the first experience you have had trying to sell older equipment on ebay? I have four cameras in the closet right now (much less new value than yours). All of them were good cameras and none of them would bring enouhg to cover the cost of shipping. It is the same with computers. We build new machines about every three years. We usually put the old ones out on the street for the street shoppers to pickup because it would cost more to advertise than they would sell for. They don’t even sell at garage sales. It is how things are with cameras and electronics. And before anyone asks why I didn’t donate them, it is because we usually keep any parts that are still usable. It makes the old machines only valuable to geeks.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 1:28 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I’m still laughing about the bug eyed idiot who kept jumping up and down and doing her damnedest to steal the show. Pelosi is a joke and she is in charge of the biggest joke of all.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 1:32 PM | Link to this
Gale
I know. I was just trying to raise a little money. That betacam broke my heart. I figured on getting maybe a grand. The lens was worth about 5 grand, but now because all the new cameras need a 16/9 aspect ratio, the old lenses don’t work. The power supply isn’t even any good for anything but THAT camera.
I do have a really nice flight case, but of course my new camera won’t fit in that case. It also won’t fit in my underwater box.
I am out to eat and probably get really hammered with a couple of friends. It’s just one of those days.
By Bruno
February 26, 2009 1:37 PM | Link to this
I’m still laughing about the bug eyed idiot who kept jumping up and down and doing her damnedest to steal the show. Pelosi is a joke and she is in charge of the biggest joke of all.
I’m doing my best not to get distracted by the multiple sideshows going on and am focusing on the man in the middle of the newly-created three-ring circus that our government has become: Obama. I think that even PT Barnum could learn a lot from our new ringmaster about how to fleece a gullible public.
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 1:40 PM | Link to this
No TOJ they are not deaf ears. These are voices who refuse to be intimidated by other opinions. They can sometimes carry bias—but I am ok with that because I do too. Like I said previously as to why I can sympathize with you is, I have been in a small business in GA. Its no fun being a woman seeking a loan (why do banks insist women have spouses sign business loans when husbands dont need wives to sign loans)?
I adore Ms. Franklin. I think her efforts have kept this city from imminent disaster—its a pity there was an entrenched nepotistic city government for her to have to work around with its entrenched ludicrous hiring quotas by race instead of hiring best qualified. Its not HER fault other elected city officials can’t figure out what fiscal responsibility is—
I say the problems IN ATL government is mainly because few people in GA ever vote civic elections, most do not know any of their elected officials, judges nor do they get involved in schools, libraries, volunteer at hospitals, give blood, do anything FOR their city except bellyache and jaw about their issues. So I blame the problems on THE PEOPLE OF ATLANTA for their apathy NOT because of some darn political affiliation.
There has been a republican governor—for HOW MANY YEARS? Republicans were fairly represented in the Senate and Congress. Don’t cry about being unfairly unrepresented—you is. Ludicrous tax cuts were responsible for the loss of police & fire departments, for poor quality schools, short library hours—but damn—Dems & Reps paved GA together and destroyed for profits most of its natural resources. When big businesses get tax breaks small businesses pay for it. GA is in the worst shape it has ever been in thanks to all those clowns in government too.
Remember I am a socialist but fiscally conservative one.
By Lyrazel
February 26, 2009 2:13 PM | Link to this
Maybe Sonny will pray for jobs since all those tax cuts he gave large businesses and developers aint amounted to much….and ya know soon as their taxes are raised they will be gone.
I am waiting for some GA official to say to the unemployed: Let them eat peanuts.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 2:29 PM | Link to this
EXPAT marquis de Lafayette arrived in late spring, June 12th of ‘77.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 2:57 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
These are voices who refuse to be intimidated by other opinions.
I could live with that, but it is a fact, not opinion that Bill Clinton broke every campaign promise he made and actually made things much worse. It is a fact, that he promised to stop sending jobs overseas and then he signed the bill that the democratic Congress offered that ENACTED NAFTA. What they don’t seem to get is that Bush never promised any of that, Clinton did. The bill was not passed under Bush, it was passed under Clinton.
Bush did not promise Universal Health Care. Clinton did. This all started because I said that I would vote for the democrats if they actually EVER did what the promise. What they do is cater to the far left and do really bone headed things like close Gitmo without having a clue as to where the most dangerous people in the world will end up. So far we are letting them out like it’s 2:30 at the local elementtary school.
I was a big fan of Franklin. I loved the way she promised to enact fair hiring policies. How has that worked out so far?
And please remember that the Georgia Senate changed control in 2002 for the first time in history from dixiecrats to Republicans.
I’m sorry to hear that you are a socialist. I can’t imagine anyone wanting government bureaucracies that have no intention of ever allowing responsibility for doing one’s job to enter into the work place, to control business. I don’t want to die because my government can’t find the budget to cure my cancer and since I am not young, my life has less value to the bureaucrats. I don’t want some bureaucrat to decide whether I live or die, and that is exactly what is happening in countries with socialized medicine.
I say the problems with Atlanta City Government is that there hasn’t been a Republican on the ballot in years. If you want to see what is wrong with the Democratic way of doing things, I’ll meet you at City Hall in the morning and we can take a walk.
Ludicrous tax cuts were responsible for the loss of police & fire departments, for poor quality schools,
Excuse me? Georgia has had some of the worst schools in the country looooong before 2002. The libraries? Like the 170 million dollar library project where they will demolish a 30 year old building so the new library will have more open spaces and more computer labs? How about some friggin’ books? We could make public access computer centers for the homeless for a hell of a lot less than 170 million. It’s ridicules, but as a socialist, you have to know that this is what government control is all about.
Dems and Reps DID NOT pave Georgia together. The state with it’s backward schools, and it’s third world, one party elections were completely dominated by Democrats since Reconstruction. That’s a fact, not opinion.
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 3:01 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
Sonny prayed for rain. Should we begin discussing what FDR, Harry Truman, Lincoln, Kennedy, every national leader we have ever had prayed for before the media convinced the sheep that praying was a dumb idea?
This gets really old, really quick.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 3:31 PM | Link to this
For your reading pleasure! Islam is patrilineal. For Muslims, that fact that Obama was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama’s full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.
Obama’s father was a Muslim. Obama’s grandfather was a Muslim. Obama’s stepfather was a Muslim. Sarah, who Obama calls grandmother is a Muslim. Obama’s half-brothers and sisters are Muslims. To Muslims, Obama IS a Muslim, no matter what he says.
Obama’s sister Maya was quoted by the New York Times as saying, “My whole family was Muslim.” I assume she considers Obama a member of her family. After all, she refers to him as “my brother.”
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 3:31 PM | Link to this
For your reading pleasure! Islam is patrilineal. For Muslims, that fact that Obama was born to a line of Muslim males makes him born a Muslim. Further, all children born with an Arabic name based on the H-S-N trilateral root (Hussein, Hassan, and others) can be assumed to be Muslim, so they will understand Obama’s full name, Barack Hussein Obama, to proclaim him a born Muslim.
Obama’s father was a Muslim. Obama’s grandfather was a Muslim. Obama’s stepfather was a Muslim. Sarah, who Obama calls grandmother is a Muslim. Obama’s half-brothers and sisters are Muslims. To Muslims, Obama IS a Muslim, no matter what he says.
Obama’s sister Maya was quoted by the New York Times as saying, “My whole family was Muslim.” I assume she considers Obama a member of her family. After all, she refers to him as “my brother.”
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 3:35 PM | Link to this
more fun for y’all! Obama became an Islamic apostate Muslim by his conversion and the question needs to be asked, was Obama’s conversion faith-based or political expediency? In either case, Muslims view Obama as first a Muslim and then as an apostate Muslim. He could face the death penalty in nearly the entire Islamic world.
There is no dispute among either ancient or modern Muslim scholars that under Islamic law, a murtadd, “one who turns his back on Islam,” an apostate, must be put to death. Irtidad, apostasy, is committing treason against God, and traitors deserve to be killed. At a minimum, other Muslims would shun him if not kill him and his mother. The fact that Obama is eagerly welcomed by the Muslim community begs many questions.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 3:40 PM | Link to this
Michelle is saying the first dog arrives in April? I thought that the First Dog was the UGLY B10tch that Barry married! HE-HE SHE IS FUGLY!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 26, 2009 3:54 PM | Link to this
Any Christians here that haven’t been Baptized? Barry never was! (That is because the black church in shytown isn’t really Christian!) Black Jesus will save us from the evil whitey!
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
Obama now wanting secrecy on defense cuts:
http:// www. defensenews. com/story.php?i=3956514&c=AME&s=TOP
No secrecy for Bush in any way. Not even CIA issues or wire tapping, but Obama doesn’t want anyone to tell how horribly he will destroy our military. And this is 30 odd days into this mess.
Damn. What’s he going to do next?
By The Other jack
February 26, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this
Gandalf
Isn’t it funny how liberals flocked here for 8 years to attack every single thing Bush did, but now that the chosen one is doing what we all feared he would do, they all go away because they can’t begin to defend this lunacy.