AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2009 > February > 06 > Entry
Should race or gender have a major role in Senate appointments?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
These days, we should be able to tackle awkward questions about diversity. In particular: were the governors who appointed two replacement senators feeling too much pressure to meet identical diversity profiles? Doesn’t it seem awfully coincidental that Sen. Barack Obama’s replacement is a black man and Sen. Hillary Clinton’s replacement is a white woman? Granted, I’m glad that the Senate did not lose diversity. And diversity should be one of the many factors considered for appointments. The sensitive question, though, is whether the governors did a comprehensive review of all available candidates or whether race or gender was an implicit prerequisite.
With no other African American in the Senate, Illinois Gov. Blagojevich must have already felt immense pressure to find a black replacement for Obama - and after Blago’s disgrace for allegedly trying to “sell the seat,” such a pick probably also seemed politically bulletproof. Roland Burris was an elected state comptroller and attorney general years ago, but has no legislative experience. I used to work in the Senate, and it is almost impossible to explain how complex and fast-moving every hour is. Senators must have immense leadership, smarts, management skills and - above all - the legislative experience and gravitas to represent their constituents’ viewpoints well. The demanding process of running for Senate tends to weed out anyone without all those traits. Burris may turn out to have them all. But without legislative experience, how can anyone know that? With all candidates to choose from, shouldn’t an ideal appointee be a seasoned legislator?
In New York, Gov. David Patterson reportedly preferred a woman for the seat. And surely Caroline Kennedy wouldn’t have been remotely considered a reasonable contender if she wasn’t a woman. Patterson’s eventual appointee, Kirsten Gillibrand, has a strong educational background but just two years’ legislative experience — and lacks anything approaching the resume of more senior legislators, or New York Atty. Gen. Andrew Cuomo, who also served in President Clinton’s cabinet. Gillibrand even worked for Cuomo for a year.
Today’s unforgiving policy problems are often a matter of life and death and allow no margin for learning curve. Time may show the new appointees to be excellent senators. But unfortunately they seem like candidates picked more for race and gender than experience, which puts their constituents at a disadvantage.
Rebuttal
Note: Andrea Sarvady’s response was posted a bit late Friday because of technical problems.
My colleague is right — “awkward questions” abound when it comes to race and gender picks, for both appointments and elections. Yet I can’t help but notice that it’s only Democrats who have raised her ire on this topic. If we’re going to tackle thorny issues of diversity in politics, we should first acknowledge that concerns about tokenism are highly subjective. In general, the more the candidate in question has views that vary from your own, the more you may question their selection for high office. Republicans wondered how much of Hillary Clinton’s popularity had to do with her gender; Democrats wondered the same about Sarah Palin. Republicans wonder how much President Obama’s rise had to do with affirmative action; Democrats are now thinking the same thing about Michael Steele’s sudden ascent in the GOP.
The truth is that we can only speculate why Governors Blagojevich and Paterson selected Roland Burris and Kirsten Gillibrand for these plum seats (which they’ll probably only hold for two years; the re-election rate for appointed senators is under 40 percent). With the Blagojevich pick in particular, it’s seems sort of silly to wonder about tokenism when so many of the discredited governor’s decisions are suspect.
Roland Burris’s lack of legislative experience could be a problem, but I can’t help but wonder if we’ll hear the same concerns about New Hampshire Gov. John Lynch’s recent selection. Picked as part of a bipartisan trade that would allow Judd Gregg to leave his Senate seat without losing it to a Democrat, in comes J. Bonnie Newman, a woman and a Republican—bingo! Still, let’s give both Sens. Burris and Newman a fair shake; I’m not sure that “unforgiving policy problems” aren’t better served by at least some fresh eyes to the process.
Burris may well earn his place in the Senate. Newman has actually promised not to run for re-election in 2010, but her short time as a legislator may be productive—she’s an independent thinker whose common sense just might transcend pressure from both parties. And who knows? Maybe someday there’ll be enough folks of various ethnicities and both genders in politics that we won’t find ourselves so caught up in these partisan musings. In the meantime, let’s keep an eye on these “golden-ticket” appointees—and an even keener look inward, at our own political biases.
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Comments
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 8:42 AM | Link to this
well … the web-sters get partial credit this week … the new topic is up on time …
but where’s Andi??? Come back, Andi!!!
By sd
February 6, 2009 9:02 AM | Link to this
We need to become truly color blind. All of us. Appoint the most qualified candidates regardless of gender, color, religion, or any other physical qualities. Lets get the best brains in there.
And that goes for everyone.
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 9:03 AM | Link to this
holy crap … digging into today’s unemployment numbers:
The unemployment rate rose from 7.2% to 7.6% for January as 598,000 non-farm employees lost their jobs in January. Factories lost 207,000 jobs, builders lost 111,000 jobs, service industries lost 279,000 jobs and retailers lost 45,000 jobs.
In total, since the recession started in December 2007, the US economy has lost 3.57 million jobs, the largest employment slump in the post-war period.
Rarely am I at a loss for words, but I am completely gobsmacked at the enormity of this. I need a few minutes to digest all this, I think …
By Gale
February 6, 2009 9:16 AM | Link to this
on topic, I agree the best candidate should be appointed in a replacement situation. I understand the drive to pick a replacement to match the qualities of the elected official as closely as possible. Race and gender are factors in an election. However, race and gender are not equal to experience. I think governors should put the individual who lost to the person being replaced on top of the selection list. After all, that person obviously wanted the seat and obviously had enough support to actually run for the office. The only reason a governor would not do that, IMO, is because the loser in that last election was of a different party and partisan politics are in motion.
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 9:28 AM | Link to this
Gale -
2 words:
special.
election.
no, they’re not cheap, but I think the seat should be determined by the people, not by the governor. as for your idea, in a 2-way race, the person who doesn’t win the election didn’t come in second, they were defeated - they shouldn’t get the seat automatically.
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 9:44 AM | Link to this
am I the only person who has “we’re gonna party like … it’s your birthday! … drink Bacardi like … it’s your birthday!” going through their head ???
Go, Sunshine! Go, Sunshine! Go, Sunshine!
(I hate waiting for news)
By Mara
February 6, 2009 9:52 AM | Link to this
Isn’t ‘best candidate’ a very subjective assessment? Some people find assertive, vocal religiosity an important qualification, while I find it disturbing and even a little alarming. There are folks who would never, EVER pick a pro-choice candidate, no matter how impressive their credentials. What I think are important qualifications and what someone ELSE thinks are vital can be completely different.
So…how does one decide who is ‘the best qualified’? Perhaps by choosing someone that is similar to the person vacating the seat, as seems to be how we do it currently. Or maybe the open seat should go to whomever came in second in that party’s most recent primary. In the case of Clinton’s NY Senate seat, that would have meant John Tasini.
and Shaunti? Kennedy was NEVER considered “a reasonable contender” by anyone except the pundocracy.
By Sunshine
February 6, 2009 10:18 AM | Link to this
I posted this on the other board before I realized we ACTUALLY had a new topic! AMAZING!
Good Morning all!
We are off to the Hospital! Thanks for the laughs and the encouragement!!! What a great cheering section I have, THANKS! I can feel the love! Won’t be home till Monday at least I’ll have Mr. Sunshine give an update then! I am not even going to address TOJ’s extra special douche-tastic-ness from yesterday. Thanks for sticking up for me ladies, I mean jeez could he be any MORE of a D!CK?!
Oh well, happy day! See you on the flip side!
(Thanks USin-Now you have that song in my head!!!)
By Gale
February 6, 2009 10:24 AM | Link to this
As you say, a special election is expensive. It is also time consuming and may leave the seat empty for an unwarrented period. I am inclined to give the loser of the last election very serious consideration. There may be other very good contenders that do not match the last holder of the seat and they should be considered. Picking a mostly untested or unknown because of race or gender is not in the interest of the people of the state.
By Mara
February 6, 2009 10:27 AM | Link to this
USinUK - am I the only person who has “we’re gonna party like … it’s your birthday! … drink Bacardi like … it’s your birthday!”
Well, today IS my b-day so I guess it’s understandable. LOL!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 6, 2009 10:31 AM | Link to this
Andi is saying all she should today!
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 10:37 AM | Link to this
Hey Mara -
happy birthday to yeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww happy birthday to yeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww happy birthday dear Marrrrraaaaaaaaaaa happy birthday to yeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww
and maaaannnnnyyyyyy mooooooorrreeeeeee
so, girly-girl - big plans for the big day???
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 10:50 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“It is also time consuming and may leave the seat empty for an unwarrented period. I am inclined to give the loser of the last election very serious consideration. There may be other very good contenders that do not match the last holder of the seat and they should be considered. Picking a mostly untested or unknown because of race or gender is not in the interest of the people of the state”
not all races are close - some, in fact, are blow-outs. do you want someone who received less than (say) 20% of the vote to be put in office? criminey, there are a lot of loose nuts running for office - just because they ran doesn’t mean they should get the office by default when the public didn’t support them.
By Mara
February 6, 2009 10:56 AM | Link to this
USinUK, thank you for that very touching rendition of a COPYRIGHTED song :^) - I’m sure someone will be contacting you forthwith…
my plans for tonight? I’m really not sure. The Mister is in charge of festivities, just like I am for HIS b-day. Considering the state of our finances, I’d be perfectly happy with some take-out, a couple of my fave DVD’s, and a few cocktails, all followed by a bit of adventure on “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride” (nudge, nudge - wink, wink)
By Gandalf, the White!
February 6, 2009 10:58 AM | Link to this
Are u going to wear your Birthday Suit? hehehe Happy Happy Birthday! Glad you were not killed before you became a human on your birthday!
Darn! I liked Andi’s column better when it was blank!
EXPAT: MAKE THEM STAY IN THE ELECTED POSITION UNTIL THE END OF TERM. I Lke this solution best because Bum Boy Biden and Barry wouldn’t be in office right now, trying to end our way of life with one bill that is full of pork and will bankrupt us.
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 11:08 AM | Link to this
Mara -
“followed by a bit of adventure on “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride””
baaaaaaahahahaha … just remember, you must be THIS tall to ride this ride (not recommended for women who are pregnant or people who have a weak heart … or a bad back) ;-)
well, whatever the Mister has in store for you tonight and this weekend, have a fantastic birthday - and best wishes for whatever anniversary of your 21st birthday this happens to be!!
By andrea
February 6, 2009 11:23 AM | Link to this
Sorry for the glitch this morning, folks—computers behave like humans sometimes, don’t they? And congrats to all with birth and birthing days….
By RealityKing
February 6, 2009 11:30 AM | Link to this
Of course they should. The Senate, and government in general. is an insiders game. T** for tat, pay to play. We the people just foot the bill. Haven’t you heard??
By Gale
February 6, 2009 11:30 AM | Link to this
Now, now, USinUK, I said “serious consideration”. That does not mean a gimme. Sure if the contest was a landslide, that was clear evidence the loser was not favored. I think partisan politics is the more likely consideration. Race and gender are secondary to party strength. I’m not saying that is how it should be, mind you.
Happy birthday, Mara, fellow aquarian.
By Gale
February 6, 2009 11:34 AM | Link to this
Considering all the changes to the site, recently, andrea, today’s glitch seemed minor. It is only too bad it bit you.
By USinUK
February 6, 2009 11:39 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“That does not mean a gimme. Sure if the contest was a landslide, that was clear evidence the loser was not favored.”
that’s why I cringed when I read the idea - I see where you’re coming from if the race is close (I still don’t agree, but at least I can see your point) - but, once you open that door and set a precedent, any old yay-hoo could wind up in a Senate seat. GAH!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 6, 2009 11:58 AM | Link to this
Andi, can you go back to the original? where your section was blank? I like that!
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this
Should race or gender play a part in hiring? Is this 1953? Did Dr. King never make his dream speech where people in the future (that would be now) are judged on the content of their character and not on the color of their skin?
Only under the dixiecrats could we even be discussing this.
So let’s see: so far, Obama can’t find a Democrat who pays their taxes.
He closes Gitmo even though 63 different persons already released has been known to rejoin the battle to kill Americans, including one that wsa recently released that is now a leader for al Quida.
The murderers that blew up the Cole were pardoned today. I’m sure the families of the dead sailors that were murdered on the Cole are HUGE fans of Obama, now.
Obama demands a goose stepping Congress, both Republican and democrat do as he wants. How many of these televised tantrums can we expect?
Democrats everywhere are whining about the fact that there is actually some people who would dare stand up to the fascist now running the country.
The “prosperity plan” is nothing but the same old buying votes crap and class warfare that put the dims in office. Almost nothing takes effect for months or even years. Clinton tried the same thing but was slapped down by a Democratically controlled Congress. Now the Democrats are determined to destroy the economy even more than they did since 2006.
And now, overt race and/or gender based hiring practices that were outlawed in 1965 are now back on the table.
AND FINALLY.
Sunshine goes to have her “baby” and the main thing “she” is thinking about is me. (two days in a row, now.) Makes you want to go Hmmmm.
Good luck “Sunshine”.
By 2D
February 6, 2009 12:09 PM | Link to this
An on-toic comment…
Perhaps the Senate seats should be determined as they were before the dreadful 17th ammendment…
Appointed by Governor - Confirmed by State Legislature
Senators were intended to be the formal voice of the individual State governments to the Federal government, not a direct representatvie of the people. I know some may not see a distinction, but it’s there.
By 2D
February 6, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Now for an off-topic comment…
While 3.6 million lost jobs may sound staggering (and it is), statistics can be spun anyway we want.
That number represents an increase of the unemployment rate by 2.6% during 2008. The recession that began prior to the 2000 election saw a 2.1% increase during 2001. While 2001 was lower, the increase was still very sharp.
A couple of other random points…
In 2004, President Bush received more popular votes than any President in history, but only won 51% of the vote. Clearly, he did not receive the “mandate” he believed he had.
XOM continues to post record billion dollar profits, but their profit margins are still routinely in the single digits if barely into double digits. Most companies that had profit margins of 8-12% would close it’s doors.
My point is, we need to be careful of how we analyze these employment numbers. In historical perspective, the percentages are high but clearly do not represent anything close to the late 70’s - early 80’s.
Also…
There are many articles out about how the American people are cutting back on certain types of spending and even, AGHAST, increasing their savings rate. Neither trend may not “stimulate” the economy now but they are positive. Neither trend may not ease the “suffering” we are hearing about but they are positive. Both trends are ones that we need to see continue if we are to have a strong economy in moving forward. Now let’s see our Governmental institutions follow suit.
By AndreaMadeIt
February 6, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Harriet Miers anyone?
“Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride” is certainly a new phrase. Care to explain its origins?
By AndreaMadeIt
February 6, 2009 12:28 PM | Link to this
“Senators were intended to be the formal voice of the individual State governments to the Federal government, not a direct representatvie of the people. I know some may not see a distinction, but it’s there.”
That is certainly true. Constitutionally, States’ Rights trumps the People’s Rights.
By Mara
February 6, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this
AndreaMadelt - “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride”
The first time I heard it was in the movie Mallrats and it just stuck. Here’s the dialog…
Tricia Jones (Renee Humphrey): When are men going to learn that women want romance, not Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride.
Brodie Bruce (Jason Lee): Be fair, alright, everyone wants Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride.
heh, heh, heh…it ended up becoming the husband and my favorite little euphemism for…well, you know…. :^)
By Gale
February 6, 2009 1:16 PM | Link to this
Speaking of State’s Rights and “how it used to be done”, do “State’s Rights” have a valid place in our current national and global society? An aquaintance mentioned yesterday that because each state can determine the formulation of gasoline sold in the state, gasoline costs about .75 more that it needs to because refineries need to stop, calibrate and restart for each state. If that is ture, would this not be one of those things better regulated at a national level? Special formulation could still be required for regions with polution issues. How many variations does that require?
By 2D
February 6, 2009 1:19 PM | Link to this
Andrea…
Can’t tell whether or not your comment was meant to be sarcastic. So, just in case…
I don’t believe anyone can say The Constitution trumps the rights of the people. It is designed to PROTECT the rights of the people from an over zealous government.
The Constitution takes great care in ensuring the Federal Government does not trample on the rights of the States or the people. This document is clearly meant to be a list of what the Frederal Government is allowed to do. If it’s not there, the Government can’t do it. For example, many Presidents, including President Lincoln tried to institute income taxes but couldn’t due to it being un-Constitutional. Thus the 16th Ammendment.
The “People” are represented in the Federal Government by elected seat in the House of Representatives. That representative ensures that the “people” have their voice and concerns heard, specifically on the issue of taxes, since all tax bills must originate in the House per the Constitution.
While not explicit in The Consitution, the court case of Marbury vs. Madison established the idea of judicial review, or the ability for the Supreme Court to declare a low un-Constitutional. While I disagree with the court on some of these cases, this power further ensures that the government does not trump the rights of the people.
By abock12
February 6, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this
I think until the Senate more fairly represents the true demographics of this country it was important to at least consider an African American replacing Obamas seat or a woman taking Clinton’s. Although that is not to say that it should be closed off to any other gender or ethnicity. Gladly the seat was not given to Caroline Kennedy but was instead given to a more experienced woman. I know this makes many white males angry but they would also be angry if the senate were majority females and minorities.
By Mara
February 6, 2009 1:27 PM | Link to this
Gale and andrea - thanks for the b-day wishes.
2D - whaddup?! Nice to hear from you! Even though we tend to disagree on most issues, I’m with you on the different purposes of Senate and House. The Senate was indeed supposed to be the voice of the State Government, just as the House of Representatives was intended to be the voice of the People. Which is one reason why the number of senators is static at 2 per state, while the House changes every ten years, after the census.
Do you have any thoughts on Pete Sessions likening the political tactics of his own party to those of the Taliban?! I mean, it might be something wingnuts or moonbats would think about in the back of their minds, but for Sessions to come right out and ADMIT it? Chris Van Hollen said what I was thinking when I heard the news, “…comparing his own party’s tactics during the economic recovery debate to those of a terrorist group in Afghanistan is truly shocking.”
By taly
February 6, 2009 1:32 PM | Link to this
I know this is very un-constitutional of me, but I HATE State’s Rights. Why? Simply because I live in Georgia where our governor prays for stuff to happen instead of actually doing it and we can’t buy beer on Sunday because it p** the evangelicals off. Now let’s see how long it takes for people to tell me to move to another state. As if it were that easy.
By Gale
February 6, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this
SD, you seems to have answered my 1:16 re: States Rights. But the Federal govt does regulate many tings nationally. Where is the line drawn? Where the state wants something enough to challenge the Fed, or is it a bright line?
By Mara
February 6, 2009 1:41 PM | Link to this
Gale, I think States Rights are needed now more than ever. Each state works as a laboratory for social, fiscal, and economic change. Ideally, we’d get to test out these changes on a small scale instead of making big changes and hoping for the best.
Take same-sex marriage for example. Remember the hue-and-cry about how, if it was legalized in Massachussetts, civilization as we know it would come crashing down, men would abandon their families for the pool boy, dogs would mate with cats, and NAMBLA would win the right to marry six-year-olds?
Well, now everyone sees that it isn’t so. That the hysteria was just that…baseless hysteria. And while knee-jerk reactionaries still manage to get anti-gay legislation passed, it’s by smaller and smaller margins. Look how much money the LDS had to spend to pass P8. Sooner or later, people WILL realize that Adam and Steve’s marriage can be just as stable (or just as disfunctional) as Jack and Jill’s. Then, like the anti-miscenegation laws, these statutes will be repealed. Because we will have tested the waters and found them fine.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 1:52 PM | Link to this
taly
I agree about the beer on Sunday deal but what would you suggest that Purdue do to start the rain? Rain dance? Maybe Gail could help him convert to Astrology. Instead of praying, he could just check his charts. Perhaps just his conversion to the democratic party might just make him such a better person that it would just start raining.
You know that damn Obama attended the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday. I am thinking impeachment. How about you?
By Gale
February 6, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this
In some states, Mara, perhaps. What about states that have ammended their constitutions? And even with that remedy, without federal recognition, Adam and Steve married in Mass will not be married in GA until this state sees the marriage as legal.
But, leave that out for now because we know it will not be solved soon. What about my example of gasoline formulation? Is there a compelling reason for that to be a State’s Rights issue?
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 2:03 PM | Link to this
Mara
Remember the hue-and-cry about how, if it was legalized in Massachussetts, civilization as we know it would come crashing down, men would abandon their families for the pool boy, dogs would mate with cats, and NAMBLA would win the right to marry six-year-olds?
I just don’t remember reading about this. I remember how states like California and Gov. Palin’s Alaska completely compromised and in spite of the huge legal loop holes it created, worked and worked to obtain the same rights for gay couples as married couples. And then I remember when gay fascists were beating people up in the streets in California for not supporting a complete lack of compromise on the part of the fascist.
But now, of course, gay people don’t want to be married any more. At least that is what you would think if you watched the mainstream media. Now the controversy is gone, even though the annointed one has openly opposed gay marriage.
Bush opposes gay marriage. He is the scum of the earth. He has no soul and he hates all gay people.
Obama opposes gay marriage. He is the anointed one. He owns the souls of all democrats and he and only he knows what is best for all gay people.
I’m just glad that all gay people are happy now that the pro-gay (yuk yuk) president is in charge. . .
By Gale
February 6, 2009 2:29 PM | Link to this
TOJ, it has nothing to do with who is president as long as marriage is controlled by state’s rights. The DOMA was superfluous and only to make the rabid right feel better.
By 2D
February 6, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
Mara… Thanks for the regards. It’s good to finally have some time to get involved with more stimulating conversation than my job.
I love your reference to States being “laboratories”. I too believe we need State’s rights more than ever in order to more freely “experiment” with different ideas and public policies. The States provide nice examples for how these different ideas and policies will work or not work as well and how well they may scale base don the size of the State.
I also believe the State provides a wonderful incubator for future leaders in our Federal Government. It is a proving ground for how different individuals will perform or not perform as elected officials.
Gales’ example provides a wonderful example of this.
So, in response to Gale’s question about gas formulation, here’s my take. Yes, it should be a State’s rights issue. Like most everything, especially environmental, the Federal Government sets minimum guidelines. If a State chooses to be more environmentally friendly, then so be it. That may raise cost for the refinery, but the increase will be passed on to the consumers in the State. The people of that State has made that choice through their Legislature to ensure a higher quality of life. Different States take different tactics, so let’s see which ideas work best.
BTW… If you are truly concerned about the cost of fuel, talk to your tax collector. The government makes more $$$ on a gallon gas than anyone else.
By Billy
February 6, 2009 2:58 PM | Link to this
The Cole defendants pardoned? That’s news to me. As I understand it, the cases were thrown out but the accused still remain in custody and can still be tried at a later date.
Of course, Jacko, I’m sure you’ll point out that I’m an idiot who doesn’t know anything that he doesn’t read in the liberal media blah, blah, blah.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 3:02 PM | Link to this
Gale
TOJ, it has nothing to do with who is president as long as marriage is controlled by state’s rights.
You are absolutely right. I just can’t help but wonder why after all those attacks on the evil Republicans and Bush, specifically when discussions about gay marriage was concerned that you never said that before?
I’m just giving you a hard time, Gale. I wouldn’t expect you to defend Bush. I do wish that there could be some sort of compromise worked out where everyone got equal treatment without the redefining of words. I couldn’t care less what you call it, but a lot of people do and that is what is stopping a lot of gay people from being treated equally.
I got a pretty clear idea of what it would be like when i lost my girl friend last year. I had absolutely no rights and if it hadn’t been for some kind nurses, i wouldn’t have ever gotten to see her. Her family moved immediately after her death and I don’t even know the name of the woman that hit her. I got a picture in the mail of her grave from her sister and that is it. I can’t imagine what it would have been like if we had been together for lots of years.
On this issue I am pretty much on your side. I just wish we could resolve the problem instead of a lot of people screaming and yelling about it.
By AW
February 6, 2009 3:03 PM | Link to this
Like Goobernor Sonny, Still a D!CK (SAD) just loves to listen to himself yammer. Yawwwwwwn!
Gov. Barnes had plans for three new reservoirs, and for initiatives that would enble and encourage local water systems to find and repair leaks in their systems. Anyone who’s ever had a broken pipe under their driveway knows how expensive and wasteful leaks can be. Given the freedom from pesky regulation by the state, local jurisdictions allowed decades of massive, sprawling development to go on with absolutely no concern for Georgia’s resources or infrastructure. Now the northern half of the state is a hot mess, and the developers have absconded with their profits, leaving shoddy, unfinished subdivisions and half-empty strip malls in their wake. Greed accomplished. Responsible recource management: non-existent. Funny, though, how the rest of us knew about the drought for more than a year before Goobenor Sonny decided to jump into action by telling us to pray. A jar of peanut butter w/salmonella has more sense that the cat neuterer’s head.
By Gale
February 6, 2009 3:12 PM | Link to this
Interesting response, SD. I’m not sure I agree on the gas formulation issue. However, the Fed has a poor track record on environmental issues. So I’ll concede that one. I don’t mind a tax on gas. I would like it to be spent on mass transit. But that is another issue too. I think we could make a lot of money if we taxed candy bars.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this
Billy
No. You are right. He “only dismissed charges”. LOL!! Yes. That’s much better. I’m sure the parents of the murdered sailors are jumping for joy over that one. I was hoping that someone would try to rationalize such a bone headed move by the anointed one and sure enough, you bit.
After all, I think it will just scare the hell out of our enemies knowing that they are in for fair American trials with the ACLU screaming for their rights. Yes. That has got to make them reconsider when they are thinking about that holy war. Yep, we got them on the run, now. Who in the world, living in a dirt hole would give that up for three squares a day and the opportunity to spread their holy war to other members of the American prison community? They would have to be crazy to give up living in a filthy, 115 degree, unairconditioned dirt hut for a prison cell.
Yep. I guess the reason why we haven’t been attacked since 9-11 was just a coincidence. They weren’t intimidated at all by a crazy cowboy that would just as soon kill them all as look at them.
What they need to really scare them is a LAWYER.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 3:22 PM | Link to this
AW
Hey half-wit. Too late. He was referring to Purdue’s prayers about rain. And if you think out-of-control development started when Republicans took over, you aren’t quite a half wit. more of a quarter-wit.
Sorry I didn’t give you any fodder about Sunshine, but I knew you would be whining about something. Being the gutless coward that you are, all you can do is whine. You are quite the big joke. Still got your nose up my butt. Take a deep breath. I had Mexican for lunch. Enjoy.
By Gale
February 6, 2009 3:27 PM | Link to this
AW, I just took a quick tour of the gov’s official site. If that is all he has to crow about, I wonder how he got re-elected. Raising graduation rates and SAT scores so that GA is still at the bottom is hardly what I would choose to brag about. I don’t remember who ran against Sonny in 2006, I am sorry to say. My attacks on unbridled development went to my county commissioners instead.
By Billy
February 6, 2009 3:49 PM | Link to this
Sorry, OJ, but they will stay in custody and will likely be charged again. Yes, I care about certain rights and believe that everyone we hold should have them. Some argue that they aren’t entitled to Habeas rights since they aren’t Americans. Well, what if you were detained and locked up? You’re a citizen, so you get your can petition your government, right? Well what if the government says you aren’t a citizen? Without the right to petition the government and challenge your detainment, you have no recourse to prove your citizenship. I don’t mind granting them rights; if they’re guilty then the justice system will, in theory, find them so.
And speaking of victims’ families, what do you say to those whose loved ones have been kidnapped and turned over to us by tribal leaders? Snatched off of tour buses? I realize the Right is always up for using innocent blood to pay for others’ crimes, but come on…
By AW
February 6, 2009 3:54 PM | Link to this
Gale, Mark Taylor ran against Sonny. He was just as bad on the self-serving good ol’ boy front, if not slightly more intelligent. Taylor played big-money hardball in the primary against a woman named Cathy Cox (not to be confused with the fuzzy-headed School Super Kathy Cox whose game-show prize money is in limbo since she filed bankruptcy). Now President of Young Harris College, Cathy Cox was a highly-praised Sec. of State, who used common sense and a strong work ethic to serve the people of Georgia. Ask any small businessman who dealt with her office, regardless of party affiliation, and they have only good things to say. Problem is, this is a back-a—ward state, and sadly, most voters don’t look at competency when voting, and certainly are not ready to elect a woman governor!
By AW
February 6, 2009 4:04 PM | Link to this
Still a D!CK, there are other websites more suited to what you are asking for. We don’t do that here. (Suggestion: find a woman with only partial understanding of the English languge who is unable to comprehend that you are actually saying the repulsive things she thought she heard you say.) BTW, nice that you responded to your new nickname so quickly. I’ll take that as acceptance. It suits you.
By JustaJew
February 6, 2009 4:06 PM | Link to this
After all, I think it will just scare the hell out of our enemies knowing that they are in for fair American trials with the ACLU screaming for their rights. Yes. That has got to make them reconsider when they are thinking about that holy war. Yep, we got them on the run, now. Who in the world, living in a dirt hole would give that up for three squares a day and the opportunity to spread their holy war to other members of the American prison community? They would have to be crazy to give up living in a filthy, 115 degree, unairconditioned dirt hut for a prison cell.
TOJ, I’m having little palpatations right now because I agree, in principle, with your above rant. However, I do have a slight problem with it and that happens to be precedent. I mean, for years and years Mossad has been handling Palestinians in the same manner. Most Israelis, by and large, have no problem with throwing a rocket launching a***** into a dark hole for a few years and letting them rot…But what has that done? Palestinians still attack Israel with the same gusto as they always have. My point is, I don’t think that detaining terrorists in Gitmo is really keeping them off our soil or keeping those sleepers cells sleeping. I think it’s more a combination of greater civilian and government vigilence and the greater attention on the issue in general and not necessarily the fact that they MAY be kept in Gitmo. I mean, they’re already willing to die for what they believe, how much could a stay at Gitmo bother them?
By JustaJew
February 6, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
Gale, Mark Taylor ran against Sonny. He was just as bad on the self-serving good ol’ boy front, if not slightly more intelligent
Hey AW, I agree with a lot of your posts but not this one. I know Mark Taylor personally and, while he is a good ol’ boy (through and through), he really did and does have the public interest at heart. Did he want to better his position (and play mega-hardball in the process)? ABSOLUTELY, but then again, who doesn’t want to better their position. All I can say is, as a lieutenant governor, we could have done a lot worse and I think he would have been a pretty good governor as well.
By JustaJew
February 6, 2009 4:17 PM | Link to this
TOJ, I’ll add this to my post (I can’t help it). Of course, if their were, let’s say, “enhanced methods of interrogation” happening at Gitmo (even though there couldn’t possibly be) then maybe a stay there would deter a terrorist, who knows….
By Gale
February 6, 2009 4:20 PM | Link to this
AW, right! Cathy Cox was a highly-praised Sec. of State That was who I voted for and then turned off when she didn’t make it to the ballot. Maybe she’ll run again. But you are like right about GA not being ready for a female gov. There are still too many good ol’boys and southern ladies for it. Even the population around Atlanta cannot swing the whole state.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 4:21 PM | Link to this
Billy
I live in a neighborhood that is surrounded by the remnants of the the dixicrat’s Great Society, so of course my neighborhood is crime infested. I have over $100,000 in television production equipment stored in and around my home.
We have had lots of home invasions and recently, a nine time felon that was caught yet again breaking into houses was sentenced to probation. Let me say that again unless you missed it: A nine time felon was sentenced to probation.
I am armed as is the entire neighborhood. If someone breaks into my home, I plan on killing them if I can catch them in my house. No if and or buts about it, I have a 12 guage surprise waiting for their sorry thieving as^es.
That’s for someone who would kill me for my stuff. But for someone who would gladly kill me simply because I am an American, I couldn’t care less about them. I think that you ask them to cooperate and if they don’t you blow their brains out and go to the next guy. Period.
But I can feel that way because it is not my job to make those decisions. It’s also not your job. But there’s one thing that I know for a fact: If it was your loved one that was about to lose their life because that low life SOB setting in front of you wouldn’t give you information that would save your loved one’s lives, you would not be the pompass a^s that you are that is insisting on dictating how people that know a million times more than you do, do their job,
I don’t know what these people have done and neither do you. So before you start preaching about some sort of blanket pardon and/or granting non-existent rights to persons captured on a battlefield, I would suggest that you try your little best to think beyond what you have been told to say by the media and try to consider that life long veterans of our best and brightest trained intelligent offices might, just might know more than your dumb a^s.
By AW
February 6, 2009 4:24 PM | Link to this
Justa Jew, I am probably a bit biased as well. I think Cathy Cox is amazing! Like you said, there’s going to be some hardball any election, but it’s hard not to take some things personally. She has no interest in running for anything ever again, and that’s a shame because IMO, she’d not only make a good governor, but — if given some decent SUPPORT from the state party for a change (don’t get me started on that bunch!) — she has an electability factor that MT didn’t have. I think she would have fared better against Sonny than MT in the general election, but then, the Ga Dem Party LOVES throw all their support behind the sure loss. UGH!
By AW
February 6, 2009 4:35 PM | Link to this
JustaJew, ..forgot to add, that yes, I agree with you, we could have done much worse than MT, and we DID! When are the people of this state going to wake up? I think the Dem Party HQ needs some serious re-staffing! It’s like they’re all baked or something. “Let’s offer the voters the SAME THING year after year, and maybe one day, we’ll get a different result! Martin lost to Cagle by 12 points two years ago? Yep, he’s our man!” Geeeeeez…. It’s too sad.
By The Other Jack
February 6, 2009 4:45 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
I understand what you are saying, but it isn’t a good or bad issue. You are correct. Keeping them intimidated and scared of being tortured will not stop the movement. But as anyone studying justice will tell you, there is the advantage of taking the leaders off the streets. Yes, they will be replaced, but by weaker leaders. It decimates the ranks. That’s why we go to extremes to lock up gang leaders.
It also creates opportunities to collect intell. That is it did before the NYT decided that they would change the rules. So now, the kid stealing the old Volvo can be ripped to shreds by trained police attack dogs but the guy plotting to blow up the Capital building can’t be sleep deprived. But of course they will need to stand the same trials and justice and the kid who stole the old Volvo.
We can treat these people like we treat the thugs that kick down our doors and steal our flatscreens, or we can recognize that they have the power to do what few military leaders have done in the past. We are talking about people who probably have access to the missing nukes from the USSR. These single people can kill hundreds of thousands of us, but we want to treat them like common car thieves.
OJ Simpson almost cut his wife’s head off and slaughtered her friend like he was a spring chicken, being readied for dinner. He walked. The DA had all the DNA they needed. SOLID proof and he walked. You and I both know that he slaughtered those two people and he walked.
Can you see where I am headed here?
By Billy
February 6, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this
OJ, you sound about as murderous as another with those initials. (Ye, I know they aren’t your real initials — don’t get your panties in a bunch.)
Who’s talking about blanket pardons? Next time you try to accuse anyone about “changing definitions” you take a long look in the mirror.
A 9-time felon gets probation? I’m not sure how that happens and I agree that it’s ridiculous. True travesties of justice, however, aren’t when the guilty go free, but when the innocent take their place. Willie Williams serving a couple of decades for a rape he didn’t commit is a travesty. So is the case of someone snatched off a bus and turned over to us as a supposed enemy combatant who hasn’t actually done anything wrong. You say yourself that you don’t know what these people have and haven’t done. I agree. I fail to see a problem with letting them challenge it, though. No one’s talking about just letting everyone go, no questions asked. We’re talking about being able to get in a courtroom and say, “Look, I was in the region studying abroad, I went to see some sights one day and got kidnapped (and sold, basically) by some tribal warlords. If you’ll just examine my case you’ll see that everything I’ve said is true.”
Detaining the innocent makes us less safe. I have no wish to hurt anyone. Throw me in a room for a few years, torture me, refuse me any right to challenge my detainment — it won’t be long before I won’t care who you are. I’ll be ready to (a) tell you anything to get you to let me go, regardless of the truth, and (b) kill you and anyone else I can if I think it’ll grant me either freedom or vengeance.
A guy was caught entering the U.S. from Canada. He had all the equipment ready for an attack and his plan was in place. He was sentenced to 22 years in prison. During the course of the investigation/trial he freely, under no torture, gave information that was put in that security briefing Bush didn’t read. The one about Al Qaida attacking the U.S. The one that warned that 9/11 was in the works.
Were my family being held hostage would I torture someone to get them released? Sure. But you generally can’t be sure the person is going to know anything and you can’t know that the information they give you wasn’t just made up to get you to stop. The only way to win the “War on Terror” is to win the hearts and minds, convince people that we aren’t evil. A good way to do that is to treat them humanely, part of which means taking the high road and not opting for vengeance.
By AW
February 6, 2009 5:24 PM | Link to this
Billy, nicely put at 5:04. Americans aren’t perfect, and our justice system isn’t perfect. But if we are going to strive to be, we have to stive to be JUST.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 8:40 AM | Link to this
Mara…
I apologize, but I forgot to answer your Pete Sessions question in my most recent post and while it may not be pertinent any longer, here it goes…
I find what he said to be very inappropriate. I didn’t then, nor do I now support the “stimulus” bill but we should never use language like Mr. Sessions’. Opposition is fine, but it should be done on the basis of ideas through constructive debate. It should not be done through some sinister or coercive activity.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 8:50 AM | Link to this
Good Monday morning!! I hope the Sunshine family are home, happy, healthy and resting! Mara, I hope you’ve recouped from your weekend antics with Mr. Toad!
Got this in an e-mail this morning and have been giggling about it all day … enjoy!
Ben & Jerry created “Yes Pecan!” ice cream flavor for Obama. They then asked people to fill in the blank for the following:
For George W. they created “___”. Here are some of their favorite responses:
Grape Depression
Abu Grape
Cluster Fudge
Nut’n Accomplished
Iraqi Road
Chock ‘n Awe
WireTapioca
Impeach Cobbler
Guantanmallow
imPeachmint
Good Riddance You Lousy M—f— … Swirl
Heck of a Job, Brownie!
Neocon Politan
RockyRoad to Fascism
The Reese’s-cession
Cookie D’oh!
The Housing Crunch
Nougalar Proliferation
Death by Chocolate… and Torture
Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream
Chocolate Chip On My Shoulder
You’re S—-ting In My Mouth And Calling It A Sundae
Credit Crunch
Mission Pecanplished
Country Pumpkin
Chunky Monkey in Chief
George Bush Doesn’t Care About Dark Chocolate
WMDelicious
Chocolate Chimp
Bloody Sundae
Caramel Preemptive Stripe
I broke the law and am responsible for the deaths of thousands … with nuts
By JokesOn
February 9, 2009 8:56 AM | Link to this
I see last week was typical for TOJerk,
Was proven flat wrong, and could not admit it. He Mistook a poster fer me, again. Insulted a women in general. And said a Zygote was kicking!
Your an effing piece of work! Kepp it up - we can always use the entertainment.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 9:02 AM | Link to this
Billy
<>
And this is a big problem. The freedoms allowed in this country, unfortunately allow people to vote that apparently can’t differentiate between a citizen, protecting his home and a murdering thug. Of course the result is a Congress that has destroyed our economy and continues to do so.
<<(Ye, I know they aren’t your real initials — don’t get your panties in a bunch.)>> You hardly have the credibility to “bunch my panties”.
<>
Total complete non-thinking liberal dog crap. Anytime the innocent goes to prison, it is a travesty, but when a criminal is released, start the counter running on his victims. Once he victimizes his first, you are on the losing side of the count. It is typical of a liberal to see a bleeding heart story and focus solely on the one issue without having the logic to look at the big picture.
<>
Yes. And the next victim of the released 9 time loser is also undergoing a travesty.
<>
Other than being the enemy and a combatant? Here’s a clue: war is different than Saturday afternoon at Piedmont Park. The wrong people get captured. Hopefully, they will soon be released. Let’s try not to kill them.
<<“Look, I was in the region studying abroad, I went to see some sights one day and got kidnapped (and sold, basically) by some tribal warlords. If you’ll just examine my case you’ll see that everything I’ve said is true.”>>
LOL!! So how many of the people at Gitmo do you believe were innocent students that were forced to use that rocket propelled grenade launcher to kill the kid down the street? Is this really your defense? Do you actually believe that the problem with Gitmo is that we have cells full of abducted college students? Exactly what percentage of the population would you guess is completely innocent and should be released? Now remember, you are advocating closing the facility so it had better be a very large percentage. So how many abducted college students would you guess are being detained at Gitmo?
It is interesting that you would choose this group to worry about. The people who manage Gitmo are the elite of counter intell and enforcement. Once you show that you are sharp enough to move past local, regional and then the ranks of the FBI and CIA, you move to the ranks of the most highly trained people in America that manage places like Gitmo.
But for some reason (could it be the constant media indoctrination I keep talking about?) you seem to think that these highly trained people can’t tell the difference between a serial killing terrorist and an abducted college student. But you don’t seem to have a problem with uncle Bubba running the state prison. How many of your fellow citizens are in prison that don’t belong there? Just too much to think about?
<>
So which horrible American torture are you talking about: scaring you into thinking that you might drown or keeping you awake? See, I have the solution for that. Instead of holding them at Gitmo, let’s just take them over to Athens and let them join a Fraternity at UGA. Any frat hazing is ten times worse than water-boarding. Or even better, let’s make them talk back to a tazor happy highway patrolman. Let them flop around in the floor like unruly American citizens. Good enough for Aunt Hazel, good enough for Abdul.
<>
Oh bullsh^t. What a bunch of mind numbing nonsense is that. So if Bush would have read that briefing, he would have known all about 9-11, huh? Are you really just a brainless zombie?
<>
Here’s your problem. They don’t give a damn how nice we are. It is their religious belief that we need to die. Have you not been paying any attention for the past 20 years? I have never heard an audio release from Osama bin Laden that says: They are mean people so we will kill them. It would be more likely to say: they are weak people and we must use the strength of Allah to kill them all.
PLEASE, try to think beyond what you are told. Since when is Islamic Fascism about “hearts and minds”? It is about Holy War and centuries of hate and the battle between the Arabs and the Jews. We will not calm this down by smiling. The only thing that they would respect is if we completely turn our back on Israel and help them take down the Israeli state. Is that what you want?
Bush’s A.I.D.S. clinics has saved more Islamic lives than any single entity in history. We have killed a brutal dictator and sacrificed thousands of our young people’s lives to bring democracy to Iraq. We are educating woman in Afghanistan when they used to be the victim d’jour for the Saturday Night woman killing. So far, Obama is introducing the idea of killing unborn children into Islamic Africa. Bush cures A.I.D.S., Obama kills their unborn. You may be shocked to hear this, but most of the people in the world, unlike the vast majority of American liberals look at what a person does, not what he says.
So … exactly what kind of “hearts and minds” actions would you suggest we take that will magically make people raised since birth to kill us, lay down their arms and want to join hands and start singing. Give me a clue of what you think Obama will be able to bring to the table that is going to make this ancient hate go away. What can Obama do that Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton or Bush didn’t do?
It’s going to take more than inspiring speeches and temper tantrums to fix the Middle East So in other words, Obama has NOTHING to offer.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 9:14 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Funny and sad at the same time.
You see, Bush is gone. The Republicans are gone. You guys saw to that, so who are you going to make fun of now?
ABC’s Sunday morning show with Clinton’s right hand man as the anchor (Nooooo, no bias there) always runs “the Sunday Funnies” which are short clips of all the late night comedians taking political swipes.
So the Democrats have ran Congress for two plus years and we have watched our country fall apart, and now, Obama is throwing tantrums because the Republicans won’t participate in the fourth bailout in one year, almost doubling our national debt. He can’t find a Democrat who has paid their taxes and the “Sunday funnies” had comedians making fun of McCain’s age. That’s right: McCain’s age.
Poor babies. You nor the mainstream media would never dare make fun of a Democrat so what are you going to do now? Comedy Central is having the worst quarter in the history of the network. Nobody wants to watch them make fun of the people who are no longer in charge.
Wouldn’t it be a reeeeeal shame if all those sock puppets for the DNC got who they wanted in the White House but lost their shows? What a shame.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 9:23 AM | Link to this
wow, TOJ, if you weren’t whinging about the “liberal bias” in the media … or how horrible your neighborhood is … would you even have anything to contribute to this board???
my guess is, no.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 9:47 AM | Link to this
I see I am not alone wondering is Sunshine is home and healthy with the new tyke. I hope it is just because the family has better things to occupy them than turning on the computer.
Sign of Spring: Girl Scout cookies. Do you miss them, USinUK? I find the entire concept of sending kids out to sell anything ridiculous. I don’t believe the exercise teaches them anything, even if they and not their parents do the selling. The organizations don’t get much of the money. The scouts rarely teach girls anything worth knowing. IMO.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 9:55 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Having a bad morning?
I’m always more than happy to point out how horribly wrong and indoctrinated moat of the liberals here are.
I have posted twice this morning. One a long post about gitmo and a post to you about how little liberal comics really have when they have their targets taken away. You have posted a hate filled attack at the past president and the eldest of all eighth graders threw a tantrum
Don’t worry about what I have to contribute until you can come up with a intelligent post, yourself. Any more hate filled ice cream stories? Can’t wait to hear them.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 10:12 AM | Link to this
Not to worry, TOJ. I am sure comedians will soon figure out someone else to poke fun at.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 10:13 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“Sign of Spring: Girl Scout cookies. Do you miss them, USinUK?”
never a big fan of Thin Mints, but I liked the PB ones with the cookie on the outside (not the PB ones covered in chocolate). although, I used to hate being hounded by the dozen-or-so coworkers whose kids were in scouts. at the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon, “when I was a kid…” we - not our parents - were responsible for selling our own cookies.
I’m just hoping Girl Scouts is better now than when I grew up - they really didn’t teach us anything useful. Although, Camp Juliet Lowe (in Cloudland, GA), was fantastic - loads of sports, camping skills, crafts, etc.
as for Sunshine - if they’re anything like other newly minted parents I know, they’re trying to get a good sleep.
meanwhile … did you hear that the Ca Supreme Court is hearing arguments to overturn Prop 8??
“California’s Supreme Court has confirmed that it will hear oral arguments next month in lawsuits seeking to annul last year’s referendum that banned same-sex marriage.
Court officials confirmed the much-anticipated cases would be heard in San Francisco on March 5. The court must issue its ruling within 90 days of the oral arguments.”
http://www. latimes.com/ news/local/la-me-prop-8-spending4-2009feb04,0,3808081.story
and who is representing the Pro-Prop8 side??? none other than Ken Starr …
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 10:18 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“I’m always more than happy to point out how horribly wrong and indoctrinated moat of the liberals here are.”
cuz you got nothing - and when you got nothing, all you can do is fling poo.
and as far as hate-filled attacks go … you really need to look in a mirror before you start throwing that particular accusation around.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 10:25 AM | Link to this
I think the latest case in the CA issue may address the whole proposition process in CA. It is one thing to allow the citizenry to control some things like licensing or Sunday beer, but changing the constitution is not something that shoule be allowed by a mere majority vote.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 10:27 AM | Link to this
Oh, and BTW with the Girl Scout cookies. That was one reason I didn’t stay in scouts for more than one year, that and the meetings were down right boring.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
USinUK - LOL at the Ben-n-Jerry flavors! Especially loud LOL at “Your…calling it a sundae” and “Good Riddance…swirl”
TOJ - the mind boggles that you believe frat-house hazing or being tazed is worse than fricken’ TORTURE! There’s really not much to say when someone has convinced themselves that VOLUNTARY ‘thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another’ spankings are worse than the Nazi-perfected ‘art’ of Verschärfte Vernehmung.
2D - I haven’t seen enough of the various parts of the stimulus to say whether it’s a good bill or not. Most of my info comes from yesterday’s news programs (oddly enough, considering the ‘liberal media’ canard, most guests were Republicans…). From what I gleaned, there was some few items that probably could wait until appropriations (and some pork I could do without completely), but the majority of the spending seemed to be allocated to short-term job creation and immediate state aid to keep safety officers on the job.
The most striking thing, to me, is that the Republican leadership is still pushing the ‘trickle-down and tax-cuts’ as the medicine for what ails us. Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II all cut taxes and their presidencies all ended in an economic downturn. Bill Clinton RAISED taxes and we saw the most prosperous eight years of the last three decades!
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 10:30 AM | Link to this
USinUK
and who is representing the Pro-Prop8 side??? none other than Ken Starr …
Without Janet Reno hiding documents and lieing to grand juries he might have had a chance, except there’s that ninth circuit thing. They have been wanting to govern from the bench since this thing happened.
Personally, i think forcing this on the people of California, after they voted it down, will send a message to the rest of the states that will inhibit any progress in gay rights in every other state. Gays in California had all the rights except the name of marriage. So they rioted and beat up the opposition and now will have their agenda forced on a state that voted against it. So exactly what are they achieving that is going to help Gale or any gay person in any other state?
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 10:39 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I got nuthin? No, sweety. I understand my limitations. After you presented that MSNBC clip that was claiming to show the complete Palin interview, but actually started with an answer to a question, I understood that you are way too far gone. You will never see the bias. But that doesn’t keep me from pointing it out.
You sound really angry today … more than usual. Is it because since Obama was elected the stock market has lost 2000 points, just like I said it would? it wasn’t that hard of a prediction.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 10:40 AM | Link to this
I’m curious. What part of the amusing B&G story contains the ‘hate’? I mean really…if that post is FILLED with ‘hate’ it should be pretty easy to point it out. Maybe the “Good Riddance You Lousy M-F…Swirl” isn’t the most politically correct flavor, but what about it makes it actually ‘hate-filled’?
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
Mara -
my favorite was the Good Riddance … Swirl - that one made me LOL
The most striking thing, to me, is that the Republican leadership is still pushing the ‘trickle-down and tax-cuts’ as the medicine for what ails us. Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II all cut taxes and their presidencies all ended in an economic downturn. Bill Clinton RAISED taxes and we saw the most prosperous eight years of the last three decades!
VERY well said, Mara! although, in this case, I do think that a short-term cut in the payroll tax will stimulate employment (emphasis on short term)
here’s what Pimco had to say about it:
“Without massive public stimulus, there is little chance of countering the highly disruptive consequences of a too sudden and too prolonged ascent of the Age of Thrift.”
“Yet there is a risk that this consensus could break down in quibbling over the details. Specifically, we should stop the bickering over whether to cut taxes or raise spending. Both are required. The tax cuts should work mainly through employment channels, including a cut in the payroll tax as this will directly help employment and limit the fall in consumption. Government spending should focus on sectors that will quickly raise resource productivity, like infrastructure, which helps lower production costs, and social services, which raise human productivity over time.”
“Obama also needs to step up efforts to alleviate the credit crunch. This is not about an immediate recovery in the banking system. It won’t happen. The sector is too damaged to act as a conduit of funds to the general economy. Instead, the government must come up with more imaginative ways to provide direct financing, particularly for mortgages and some areas of consumer finance.”
http://www. pimco.com/LeftNav/ Viewpoints/2009/ Viewpoints+El+Erian+Newsweek+Numbers+Horrifying.htm
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 10:53 AM | Link to this
Mara
TOJ - the mind boggles that you believe frat-house hazing or being tazed is worse than fricken’ TORTURE! There’s really not much to say when someone has convinced themselves that VOLUNTARY ‘thank-you-sir-may-I-have-another’ spankings are worse than the Nazi-perfected ‘art’ of Verschärfte Vernehmung.
LOL. Say it ain’t so. I know for a fact that a frat at UGA was busted for water-boarding new pledges. Tazing has always been prohibited at Gitmo. Did you see the police clip where a woman was tazed for not hanging up her cell phone?
For the foriegn national who wants to kill us all, let’s treat him with kid gloves, but somebody’s Mom who didn’t hang up her cell phone, 50,000 volts and she is floppin’ on the pavement.
Is there anything at all strange about that to you?
So my question to you is: where’s the torture? I need YOU to TELL ME what they do at Gitmo that you would consider torture.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 10:55 AM | Link to this
“i think forcing this on the people of California, after they voted it down, will send a message to the rest of the states that will inhibit any progress in gay rights in every other state”
Edmund Burke - “In a democracy, the majority of the citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority”
By Gale
February 9, 2009 10:55 AM | Link to this
TOJ, knocking down Prop8 in CA will tell all the citizens of the nation that ammending a constitution on the whim of the people might return to haunt them when they are on the wrong side of a majority opinion (bought by a minority opposition). Pay attention to Wyoming withdrawing a similar move, I have no doubt until the CA court makes their ruling.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 10:58 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“Without Janet Reno hiding documents and lieing to grand juries he might have had a chance”
yeah. he spent 5 years and wasted $70 million of my tax dollars to tell us that, no, nothing illegal happened in the WhiteWater dealings and, yes, Vince Foster did indeed kill himself. oh, and the president got a BJ.
and you say that Democrats make the country bend over???
“Personally, i think forcing this on the people of California, after they voted it down, will send a message to the rest of the states that will inhibit any progress in gay rights in every other state.”
personally, I think that it should make the remaining 49 think twice about passing state constitutional amendments that limit specific groups’ civil rights.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this
Mara
I’m curious. What part of the amusing B&G story contains the ‘hate’? I mean really…if that post is FILLED with ‘hate’ it should be pretty easy to point it out. Maybe the “Good Riddance You Lousy M-F…Swirl” isn’t the most politically correct flavor, but what about it makes it actually ‘hate-filled’?
Is there anything that could ever be said about Bush that you wouldn’t considered justified? And you guys wonder why most conservatives laugh at Bush Derangement Syndrome. You are so filled with hate and indoctrination that you can’t even recognize hate when you see it.
So when Uncle Teddy K kicks off, will it be ok for me tp post: Good Riddance You Lousy M-F? I’m sure when I post that, you guys will just smile at my cleverness.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 11:07 AM | Link to this
Y’know, IMO I think the problem is American’s — no, civilized people’s— conflicted feelings about the nature of terrorism and it’s causes. We want the terrorism to stop. But we don’t understand why they do it. Why do they hate us? Torture seems to be a quick way of stopping terrorism. But until we understand the why, it is a hydra that will keep growing a new head as soon as we cut one off. Torture only makes us as bad as our “enemy”.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
Mara…
Very few of us know all of the details of the “stimulus”. Here are a couple of things that we should consider.
How much of the money being spent will create jobs that will no longer need governmental stimulus after the targeted time frame for the stimulus? I do not mean to debate the following provision. I am merely using it to frame some points. Take expanding governmental aid for unemployment benefits. This may assist displaced workers, but does it do the following:
I could go through a similar exercise for every bucket in the bill. If the answers come back with NO to any of these questions, we should seriously debate and detemrine if it should be a “stimulus” bill or simply a spending bill at a later time because it will not provide long term stimulus for the economy.
Also…
I don’t think your examples of “trickel-down” economics hold much water (pardon the pun). Nor do I think it is really fair to blame President Bush (or any Presdient for that matter) for the current recession or give too much praise when the economy does well. Too many factors come into play when evaluating an economy.
First, lower taxes brings more money into the Federal coffers. It did for Kennedy. It did for Reagan. It did for Bush II. So do not equate lowering taxes with a bad economy.
Second, the problems encountered during those administrations was the ridiculous increase of Federal spending that outpaced the gains. I would propose that Clinton saw great economic expansion during his tenure not because he raised taxes, but because the Conservative Congress helped curb spending and make for a better business environment. Clinton and Congress worked well together.
Third, Clinton came into an office during a perfect business storm. Technology was increasing productivity faster than at any time since the Industrial Revolution. That increased profits, opened the door for more workers due to greater demands for technology, which then fueled speculative investments in Tech companies, which drove the cycle continued until the bubble burst at the end of his Presidency, similar to the housing bubble at the end of Bush’s tenure.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
Gale
it will tell the nation what we already know: We are no longer a Representative Republic. It all boils down to what an appointed judge decides, not what the people decide.
Most people know what a sh^t hole this country is becoming. Look at the Woman to Woman topic this week. “Should White Men have any part in the governing of this country.” Tell me why that is not the question they are asking. This is 2009. With topics like that and the publicizing of employee votes and the dictating of laws by appointed judges, please tell me why these issues are not fascist in nature.
By Rollo
February 9, 2009 11:16 AM | Link to this
Girl Scouting is a liberal lesbian training camp. All the radical lesbians who would buy my sons Boy Scout popcorn proved this. I sick my dog on the little sluts when they come to my door!
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:16 AM | Link to this
USinUK
personally, I think that it should make the remaining 49 think twice about passing state constitutional amendments that limit specific groups’ civil rights.
This is the problem. You and people like you want the government to strong arm the country into agreeing with you. That pretty much sums it up, doesn’t it? And you wonder why I keep referring to the NAZIs.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:17 AM | Link to this
You know what’s funny???
TOJ is always in here spouting that Dems are brainwashed by the “liberal media”, yet, he is always in here … well, I would say “quoting Rush Limbaugh” - but, of course, he never attributes it.
Example:
TOJ: Is it because since Obama was elected the stock market has lost 2000 points, just like I said it would? it wasn’t that hard of a prediction.
RUSH: I tell you, folks, we are looking at the largest stock sell-off after an election in American history. The largest stock sell-off in American history! The market is down right now almost 10% since Election Day. (For those of you in Rio Linda, that was two days ago.) This is tracking to be the worst post-presidential election three-day period since at least 1900, the worst so far.
http://www. rushlimbaugh.com/home/ daily/site_110608/content/01125107.guest.html
The truth (all data as of closing bell)
S&P on 5 November: 952.77
S&P Friday: 872.33
NASDAQ 5 November: 1780.12
NASDAQ Friday: 1592.75
DOW 5 November: 9625.28
DOW Friday: 8290.22
2000 points??? anyone??? anyone??? no, I think not.
as for the sell-off, Mr. “I understand my limitations” - I wish you would accept that economics is one of them. Or, maybe you just haven’t heard about the connection between lower-than-expected revenues and stock prices.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 11:20 AM | Link to this
Mara… One other point…
I am doing my best to separate the term “Republican” from “Conservative”. I’m doing that for a couple of reasons:
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
So when Uncle Teddy K kicks off, will it be ok for me tp post: Good Riddance You Lousy M-F? I’m sure when I post that, you guys will just smile at my cleverness.
wow.
equating someone dying of a brain tumor with someone leaving office.
nice.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this
2D
The problem is that they want no debate. The Sunday Morning political shows were about as troubling as anything i have ever seen. democrats are screaming that the end of the world is near if we don’t spend this money. That, in itself would normally be enough to discredit their stance, that is if the media actually pointed out what they are doing.
By American Woman
February 9, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this
Waiting for the Sunshine Report! My prediction: It’ll be a week before we hear word one. Keep sending good vibes their way, though!
By Gale
February 9, 2009 11:25 AM | Link to this
SD, thanks for the rational view of “stimulus”. Good points.
TOJ, you must be a joy to be around with as much negativity as you spew.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
You and people like you want the government to strong arm the country into agreeing with you
frankly, I couldn’t care less if you agree with me or not.
what I do care about is ensuring that Gale’s is afforded the same civil rights I have.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:34 AM | Link to this
USinUK
LOL!! That’s the most chicken sh^t thing you have ever posted. So if Limbaugh points out the crashing stock market, even though any one with money in the market knows how much it is crashing, and I also point it out, I must be parroting Limbaugh.
I told you what would happen. We talked about it for weeks and sure enough it is happening exactly like I said it would. Every democrat I have heard says it is going to continue to get worse for the next three years.
What the frig happened to HOPE? Just more democratic horse crap that you guys bought hook line and sinker. And here you are STILL trying to justify your ignorant, indoctrinated vote.
I’d be very angry if I were you. They made you look like a fool, yet again.
By Sunshine
February 9, 2009 11:37 AM | Link to this
Hi all!
Thanks for all the good wishes and warm thoughts! We have a perfect baby boy!!! He was born at 1:05 pm on friday by c section, he was 9 lbs 6 oz and 21 & 3/4ths inches long! Head full of brown hair. We are all good, he had NO issues! We are leaving the hospital today. I will write more later. Take care!
By Mara
February 9, 2009 11:40 AM | Link to this
TOJ - “So my question to you is: where’s the torture? I need YOU to TELL ME what they do at Gitmo that you would consider torture.”
to what point? I don’t think you even believe that there is such a thing as ‘torture’, so what would the point be in outlining techniquest that the CIA and DoD admit to using AND admit as being within the legal definition of ‘torture’?
And just for the record, I think Tazers are all too frequently misused as a tool of punishment (for those who are slower to obey than the officer likes) rather than for what they were designed for, to be a non-lethal means of enforcing compliance on combative, non-cooperative suspects.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this
democrats are screaming that the end of the world is near if we don’t spend this money. That, in itself would normally be enough to discredit their stance, that is if the media actually pointed out what they are doing.
yep … those pesky Dems … Like ARLEN SPECTER:
“I am supporting the economic stimulus package for one simple reason: The country cannot afford not to take action.
The unemployment figures announced Friday, the latest earnings reports and the continuing crisis in banking make it clear that failure to act will leave the United States facing a far deeper crisis in three or six months. By then the cost of action will be much greater — or it may be too late.”
http://www. washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ content/article/2009/02/08/AR2009020801710_pf.html
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this
USinUK
what I do care about is ensuring that Gale’s is afforded the same civil rights I have.
I call total BS. All you care about is being right, or at least thinking that you are right. Gale’s rights mean nothing to you.
You slipped up and said it. You want America to “THINK TWICE” about daring to disagree with you. That’s all it is, girl. You got the government you deserve.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 11:42 AM | Link to this
I am laughing and laughing hard! The question is ludicrous! Should race or gender have a major role in Senate appointments?
People please. Race or gender has NOTHING to do with it. Get that? Too heavy? Need repeating? Race or gender has NOTHING to do with it and it has not for a very long time.
Ok—so what? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ figure it out yet?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ How YOU elect ONLY a millionaire! (Ok so Obama is not yet a millionaire but certainly took mucho millions to fund his ‘paid by people’ campaigns in the end. Big money from labor, business and private donations. BIGGGGGGG MONEY from THE PARTY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Ain’t nobody running or in office who does not have the cold cash of millions in his/her war-chest or has access to$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Appointments? How much?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Who is paving your politicians way to their seats in the chamber? Special interests? Lobbyists? Who is going to give $$$$$$$$ to your fund/state/organization? Politics is not free. Anyone NOT notice how much wealthier Sonny P. is after being GA governor?
By Gale
February 9, 2009 11:42 AM | Link to this
Maybe this is the problem, TOJ. You are spending too much time watching political TV shows. All that yelling isn’t really the way people discuss and debate issues. That is a put on for entertainment purposes. The yelling gets more viewers. Real adults usually present opinions and facts and listen to what other adults say. Real adults think about opinions that do not match their own, and consider whether they might have some merit.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:43 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
“He was born at 1:05 pm on friday by c section, he was 9 lbs 6 oz and 21 & 3/4ths inches long! Head full of brown hair. We are all good, he had NO issues! We are leaving the hospital today. I will write more later. Take care!”
HOOORAY!!! MAZEL TOV!!! WELL DONE, YOU!!!
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:45 AM | Link to this
USinUk
equating someone dying of a brain tumor with someone leaving office.nice.
LOL!!! that’s what I thought. For someone who claimed that aborted babies are “Cadillacs”, it is funny as hell watching you complaining about that murdering MF.
You can’t even see how many times you prove me right.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 11:46 AM | Link to this
Sunshine
Congratulations.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 11:48 AM | Link to this
Oh boy, Sunshine! Since his time is almost the same as mine, I am guessing Gemini or Cancer rising. A few minutes can make a difference. Think of it, Auarius with Gemini rising; a perfect airhead. (Just like me.) :-> I’m very happy for you.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 11:48 AM | Link to this
“The Sunday Morning political shows were about as troubling as anything i have ever seen. democrats are screaming that the end of the world is near if we don’t spend this money.”
but…90% of the talking heads were REPUBLICANS!!
“Should White Men have any part in the governing of this country.”
I must have slept through that week, because I do NOT remember that topic.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 11:50 AM | Link to this
Congrats Sunshine!
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 11:54 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
200 points on the S&P and NASDAQ and 1500 on the DOW are hardly crashing … particularly when we have banks getting eaten by the FDIC on a weekly basis, we have the auto companies barely holding on (which means that the companies that support the auto industry - like, oh, I dunno STEEL are also suffering)
but, yeah. it’s aaaaaallllll because of Obama.
as for your “So if Limbaugh points out the crashing stock market, even though any one with money in the market knows how much it is crashing, and I also point it out, I must be parroting Limbaugh”
honey, that’s the kind of logic you use on us - if we believe something it’s because the “Liberal Media” has been spouting it.
goose - meet gander.
By American Woman
February 9, 2009 11:57 AM | Link to this
CONGRATULATIONS!! And WELCOME, Little Sunshine Boy!
By Dave the Butcher
February 9, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this
**AND FINALLY.
Sunshine goes to have her “baby” and the main thing “she” is thinking about is me. (two days in a row, now.) Makes you want to go Hmmmm.
dont believe for a minute your miss sunshine had a baby. nobody logs in the while in labor—or when headed to the hospital@i dont care how much love is on this site—then logs in to say she is heading home—nope. when you lie on-line be sure your lies are consistant with reality—last thing any woman who just has a c-section does is blog WtW**
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
“You slipped up and said it. You want America to “THINK TWICE” about daring to disagree with you. That’s all it is, girl. You got the government you deserve.”
excuse me??? when did I ever say that??? do … please cite …
“For someone who claimed that aborted babies are “Cadillacs”, it is funny as hell watching you complaining about that murdering MF.”
yay!!! mr. reading-is-fundamental strikes again!! the guy can’t comprehend a simple statement that “it doesn’t matter what you call them (baby vs. fetus vs. blastula vs. cadillac), I still think that their rights don’t take precedence over the woman involved”)
so. simple english. economics. let’s compile a list of things TOJ just. can’t. grasp.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 12:09 PM | Link to this
2D - I guess I agree with Andy Sullivan over at The Atlantic -
…it seems to me that in the context of the worst downturn since the Great Depression, it’s worthy of conditional support. It isn’t perfect and the debate at times seemed surreally disconnected with the global crunch, but its fundamental goal, it seems to me, is to lessen the chances of a deflationary spiral that truly should scare the s** out of people. Perhaps it’s too crude; or not big enough.
But the following facts seem to me the most pertinent:
a) no one knows quite what will work for sure;
b) Obama was elected in part to tackle this crisis and the election was obviously not a vote to continue the approach favored by the GOP;
c) Obama will be held responsible for the effects of the package, as he should be;
d) in the context of the current collapse in demand, the distinction between a “stimulus” package and a “spending” bill seems increasingly esoteric;
e) Obama did a great deal to try and bring Republicans on board and to allow for a to-and-fro; the GOP, for good or ill, had no interest in cooperating with the in-coming president. They too should be held accountable for this. If the bill fails to make a dent on the collapse of demand, and if it does end up hurting the US through even more debt, then the GOP will be able to make that point in the next election. But if it works, their opposition should be recalled.
f) none of this makes sense if looked at entirely alone. The looming financial reform package must be seen as part of the rescue. If Obama can find a center for serious long-term entitlement reform, then the long-term consequences of more debt in the stimulus bill will be drastically mitigated. Again, true fiscal conservatives will focus on entitlement reform as the balance to this bill - not stupid posturing over trivial issues like pork.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 12:10 PM | Link to this
Mara
Look at the top of the page. Do you see this: Should race or gender have a major role in Senate appointments?
So if the appointments are based on race or gender, do you think that hiring practice will favor white guys? Race or gender preferences in this country always means that some hard working white guy will be hitting the road. Tell me why I am wrong.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 12:15 PM | Link to this
USinUk
Come on back. Come on back to the topic. You got all upset when I said the same thing about Uncle Teddy that you said about Bush. Remember?
Try to pay attention. Try to keep up.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 12:23 PM | Link to this
USinUK
*excuse me??? when did I ever say that??? do … please cite … *
Maybe I misinterpreted about what you meant when you said this:
personally, I think that it should make the remaining 49 think twice about passing state constitutional amendments that limit specific groups’ civil rights.
So you just support the government intimidating the rest of the country over that one issue, huh? Any other Republican supported stance would need to be fairly presented and governerd by our quickly becoming fascist government. Right?
Is all the logic gone, girl? Can’t you see what you’ve become?
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Dave the Butcher
You haven’t been around many c-sections, have you? I’m surprised they held her until today to release her. She either has a good Doc or a good HMO.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this
Mara -
And the American people seem to “get it”, as well (from the WSJ)
Gallup: Obama, Congressional Democrats Have Advantage on Stimulus Susan Davis reports on Congress.
President Barack Obama and congressional Democrats have more support from the American public on their efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill than do congressional Republicans who oppose it, according to a Gallup poll released today.
“Do you approve or disapprove of the way each of the following has handled the governments efforts to pass an economic stimulus bill?” respondents were asked. Two out of three said they approve of Obama’s efforts while 23% were opposed. For congressional Democrats, a plurality, 48%, said they approve while 42%, said they disapprove.
For Republicans, 31%, said they approved, while 58% said they disapprove.
These findings, based on Gallup Poll interviews conducted Feb. 6 and 7, underscore the degree to which Obama appears to be maintaining the upper hand over his opponents from a public opinion perspective as he and congressional leaders wrangle over the precise form and substance of a new economic stimulus plan,” states Gallup.
The president will appear in Elkhart, Ind., today and Fort Myers, Fla., tomorrow to host townhall meetings to promote the stimulus package. He will also host an 8:00 p.m. EST televised press conference tonight.
The same survey shows that a majority, 51%, say it is “critical important” for the federal government to approve a stimulus plan, while 29% said it was “important but not critical.”
Those responses fall largely on partisan lines, with just 29% of Republicans stating it is critically important and 65% of Democrats saying the same.
http:// blogs.wsj.com/ washwire/2009/02/09/ gallup-obama-congressional-democrats-have-advantage-on-stimulus/
By Mara
February 9, 2009 12:44 PM | Link to this
so the question of whether a State Governor should or should not use gender/race to decide replacement appointments, i.e. a black guy to replace a black guy, an asian woman to replace an asian woman, or (gasp!) a WHITE MAN to replace a WHITE MAN, is no different than asking “Should White Men have any part in the governing of this country”?!
PUH-lease!! Talk about needing some reading comprehension classes…
USinUK - please remember that this is a serious discussion amongst serious people about serious issues. Any attempt at levity, satire, or snickerings from the balcony shall not be taken lightly and shall be considered evidence of anger, hatred, and a hypocritical refusal to admit that all politicians are scum (except for Republican politicians…they’re gggrrrrrrrreat!)
Have I made myself clear, young lady?
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 12:46 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
“You got all upset when I said the same thing about Uncle Teddy that you said about Bush. Remember? Try to pay attention. Try to keep up.”
awwwwwww …. you’re so cute when you’re delusional.
upset? no. because we’re talking about you, I expect things like comparing someone dying of a brain tumor to someone leaving office. why? a lack of class, primarily.
“Maybe I misinterpreted about what you meant when you said this”
misinterpret? you??? no!!! NEVER!!!
misrepresent - yes. daily.
“So you just support the government intimidating the rest of the country over that one issue, huh?”
wow - so, first of all, you don’t really understand the separation of powers (quick!! add politics to the list) - secondly, the CA supremes hearing a challenge is “intimidation”??? they’re doing their job. And they’re not the first state supreme court to hear challenges, either.
lastly, I don’t care if you agree. that’s not the point of a democracy. the point is the protection of individual liberties from “mob rule”
but, then, I don’t expect you to understand that, either.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 12:53 PM | Link to this
Mara
to what point? I don’t think you even believe that there is such a thing as ‘torture’, so what would the point be in outlining techniquest that the CIA and DoD admit to using AND admit as being within the legal definition of ‘torture’?
That’s silly Of course I know what torture is. Pulling out finger nails. Pushing a glass rod up a guy’s you know what and then breaking it, cutting off fingers. Shooting small caliber arms into extremities. Gouging eyes, ripping flesh from people still alive, just beating the hell out of a guy. You know, the stuff that our enemies do to us. But making someone think they are drowning is not what I consider torture. I suppose the definition is a sliding scale. I was tortured everyday that I went to calculus class. I hated that ill-logical crap.
But I think that scaring someone is not the same as physically hurting them.
And just for the record, I think Tazers are all too frequently misused as a tool of punishment (for those who are slower to obey than the officer likes) rather than for what they were designed for, to be a non-lethal means of enforcing compliance on combative, non-cooperative suspects.
They probably are. But my point was that if they are needed anywhere, they are needed in interrogations. Just a little good old floor floppin’ and he just might want to cooperate.
But the bottom line is that interrogation is not what I do. The people who do it, especially at Gitmo are good at it. They know what they can get. They know how much they can trust that they get and they know the people they are dealing with. I don’t and neither do you. I would rather the guys who do this sort of things call the shots.
I saw Mary Landry get ripped to shreds by an interviewer when she was trying to explain what Obama would do that would be any different than anyone else. All the interviewer kept saying was : So how’s that different? Landry was turning every shade of red, but couldn’t answer.
Of course Landry was the Senator that during Katrina demanded that the executive helicopter service that she used, take their biggest bird out of service, have it cleaned because it had been rescuing citizens all day, and supplied to her so she could take George Stephaopolis for a ride over the city, telling him what a horrible job Bush was doing. People screaming to please help them and she would not allow a single victim to be put aboard that chopper while she was on it. The best part was when the pilot dropped them off, and Landry was trying to continue blabbering to ABC, he hovered over them and almost knocked her off her feet. THAT was a good pilot.
I need to go work, but please consider this:
The guy that Obama just pardoned for blowing up the Cole will still be held in prison. They had charges against him, so they were legally holding him. Now, under Obama, they have no charges but are still holding him. WTF? Please explain why that is fair and what Bush was doing wasn’t.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 1:07 PM | Link to this
USinUK
have a good day, girl. I hope I made you think a little.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 1:11 PM | Link to this
Without checking the numbers, I would guess that Congress currently has a majority of white males, seriously disporportionate to the general population. Why is that? Maybe because minorities and women do not get funding to run? Maybe because when they do get funding, they often lose to an even marginally qualified white man, just because he is a white man. TOJ, your outrage is misplaced. Obama won for several reasons. A lot of them had to do with his opposition. A lot of it was funding.
By Mara
February 9, 2009 1:23 PM | Link to this
Landrieu, not “Landry”. And exactly what does one inarticulate moment on George Stephanopoulos’ news program prove? Be that as it may…
“That’s silly Of course I know what torture is. Pulling out finger nails. Pushing a glass rod up a guy’s you know what and then breaking it, cutting off fingers. Shooting small caliber arms into extremities. Gouging eyes, ripping flesh from people still alive, just beating the hell out of a guy”
What a very limited definition you have. Actually, torture is ALSO freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air-conditioned rooms, stress positions, withholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end - all these have occurred at US detention camps under the command of president George W. Bush. Over a hundred documented deaths have occurred in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases.
but of course YOU know that we don’t torture, or if we do we do it with the very best intentions…
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 1:36 PM | Link to this
Mara
Pardon me for not caring whether I spelled the fascist’s name right. She was very articulate. Democrats are the greatest politicians in the world. Did you not get the point that she thought it was more important that she be heard on ABC News than people be rescued. Did you not understand that point? I thought I made myself very clear. This is a leader of the party that you support. Of course she isn’t like most of your leaders. She apprently paid her taxes.
Can you send me to a source that says that Bush ordered these beatings and deaths? I would really like to see that one.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 1:37 PM | Link to this
Gale
Are white men ever qualified for anything in your opinion?
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 1:43 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Before you get on your arrogant little high horse, you really need to learn all about READING COMPREHENSION.
I said that the DOW has crashed 200 points since OBAMA was elected. Not took office.
So before you launch into another tirade / temper tantrum, perhaps you should read what I said, first.
K?
By Mara
February 9, 2009 1:49 PM | Link to this
TOJ - google it yourself. There is nothing I could post that you would accept as evidence, so google it yourself. I would suggest you start with ‘Verschärfte Vernehmung’ and ‘John Woo torture memo’ and then go from there. Now, I don’t advocate using Wikipedia as a SOURCE, but I’ve found that starting there and following the links to various sources can be quiter helpful.
good luck
By Gale
February 9, 2009 1:52 PM | Link to this
Folks, we are not having a discussion. We are feeding the troll and he is gorging on it.
I’ve read a number of reasons, rational for the most part, about why the best stimulous is NOT to give every taxpayer roughly $10,000. Personally, I fall right in line with one of those reasons. Long term stimulus, paying off credit card debts. I confess mine have grown beyond what I can pay in total each month. But, that would free up money to be applied to home repairs a few months down the road. That would feed the economy directly, and surely just as quickly as someof the stimulus programs.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 1:55 PM | Link to this
TOJ, certainly white men are qualified for lots, obviouly on a case by case basis. I don’t hate men. I just don’t want to sleep or live with one.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this
Mara…
Interesting points from “The Atlantic”. I guess I would ask the following…
Is this the biggest crises facing the nation since “The Great Depression”? I’m not convinced it is. The unemployment rate is still 3 points lower than the terrible economies of the 70’s and 80’s. Plus, the inflation rate actually contracted last month.
Compare the policies taken as part of the first bank bailout combined with this new bill with examples/results from the past. The Japanese government attempted a similar rescue in the 1990’s and it didn’t work. FDR attempted a similar rescure in the 1930’s and it didn’t work.
Is there a difference between “spending” and “stimulus” or is it an esoteric argument? It is most decidedly NOT esoteric. The economy that flourished under Clinton (the one everyone likes to point to) was successful because the jobs were created by private sector investment. The Government cannot be looked to for direct job creation because the jobs will either go away when the spending bill runs it’s course or the government will continue to spend huge amounts of money it doesn’t have to sustain the jobs. The Government should focus on making conditions better for businesses to expand, not direct creation of jobs.
Also…
Arlen Spector, Susan Collins and Olympia Snow do not constitute bi-partisan support. Voting for a bill because people made comprimise does not make for a good reason to vote for a bill. If I go to a mall jeweler and get them to reduce their price 75%, it’s still a crappy deal since the price was marked up 90% to start with. That’s exactly what’s gone on with this bill, only more of a crime. The “mall jeweler” has given a 10% discount on the item marked up 90%.
The poll USInUK cited reference how the two parties have “handled” the situation. It does not reference how people feel about the bill. The poll I referenced last week (I believe it was OpinionDynamics) showed only 37% of the people supported the bill. The remainin 63% either opposed it or felt it needed changes. Just because folks like the salesman doesn’t mean they like the CRAP being peddled.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this
Of course we torture but we do so with the very best intentions, Mara. Its wink wink politics! What is troubling is that we the people actually were in denial so many years that it was not happening because Americans would never torture anyone. Worse is all the folk who believe it is not still happening! Sure Obama closes Guantanamo but will he publicly bring out (by their release only) ALL the people being held in prisons run by other nations so we know actually where those covert prisons are or how many were actually imprisoned? Wont happen. We need these covert jails in countries where laws can be bent!
I think closing G’base is PR. I cannot see it as anything else but PR and the low-level terrorists we have kept there are not useful to secret operations because they were caught. These men have been so outside the organizations now—their information & contacts are gone. Probably most are actually fearing release because they snitched under torture. Terrorists have to be able to travel without notice; these folk will never be able to leave their homes without someone knowing.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this
Mara
So you are wanting me to prove your point for you. Pardon me for passing on that one.
Gale
You offer arguments. i counter. You can’t dispute what i say so you call me a troll and I am not “worthy” of your conversation.
Places like the democratic underground or US Liberals at about.com do not allow conservatives to post there. Those blogs sound like what you are looking for.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 2:15 PM | Link to this
TOJ, It is not that I cannot dispute what you say. It is that I consider it pointless to dispute what you say. You are not in listening mode.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 2:19 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
Damn. Dead on again. Clinton sent them to countries that really torture them. Of course the NYT’s hadn’t decided to bend the facts yet and decide the policies of out state department.
Obama pardoned the main plotter for the attack on the Cole. The media rationalizes by saying that he won’t be released and there’s a good chance that they will be charged again. WTF? So now Obama is holding someone who doesn’t have a single charge against them and they are bragging about it. And the liberals all look like the bobble head dolls in the back window. Yep … sounds good to me, yep, yep.
I try not to judge most liberals by the people who post here, but after watching Meet The Press, and the ABC and CBS equivalent and seeing all those democrats rationale for doubling our national debt, I think we are screwed. the indoctrination is complete. It isn’t that brainless democratic leaders are claiming that even if this is completely wrong, we need to do it NOW, It’s the fact that American’s aren’t storming the studios and dragging those mindless idiots through the streets in shame that concerns me. .
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this
Gale, there is a real problem with stimulus packages and it kind of shows in your words. May I dissect? Thank you. …mine have grown beyond what I can pay in total each month. But, that would free up money to be applied to home repairs a few months down the road. That would feed the economy directly, and surely just as quickly as someof the stimulus programs….
You mean you will spend further money you do not actually have to do home repairs—on a house you owe a lot of money on for what? A tax rebate? You will spend $500 for new windows—thats a $40.00 tax break you get back. So, instead of paying your debt you go out and ‘stimulate the economy & provide a job’—and tack on another $460 to your debt load.
This is the same nonsense stores use when they say: 10%-50% off. You must spend to save…
Why no save? Why no real push to induce people to pay debts first? Why no raising interest rates in savings accounts? We are as a nation so hopelessly in debt and its getting worse by pretending we can afford stimulus packages to spend our way out. Thanks Gale.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this
2D
The remainin 63% either opposed it or felt it needed changes. Just because folks like the salesman doesn’t mean they like the CRAP being peddled.
The numbers are falling. Another two weeks and there won’t be 20% of the public that support this. that is why the dims are going crazy, trying to push this mess through. Robert Riech (sp?) said on ABC this weekend that it doesn’t matter whether this is the right thing or not. We just need to DO IT NOW.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 2:30 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
“I said that the DOW has crashed 200 points since OBAMA was elected. Not took office.”
geez loueeez … you can’t even quote YOURSELF correctly.
ahem - your statement from earlier today:
Is it because since Obama was elected the stock market has lost 2000 points, just like I said it would?
and the S&P, NASDAQ and DOW data compared closing data from the day following the election to yesterday.
poooooooooooooor TOJ … those straws you clutch must be hard on the manicure …
By 2D
February 9, 2009 2:31 PM | Link to this
TOJ… Minor point, but the Dems and Obama only want to double the deficit. Presdient Bush did a good job doubling the debt.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 2:32 PM | Link to this
Mara -
“Have I made myself clear, young lady?”
I know, I know … but fishes in a barrel of deluded make such easy targets …
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
No TOJ—the dems are not pushing this through because of public support fading. They are pushing it through because they are scheduled to go on vacation this week They are pushing legislation through without having any program or policy in place to be recipient of—nothing—not in banking—not in any state is there any program in place and operational to receive 800 billion…. it will be gone like gas over a turtle after a bean supper… sorry to be so blunt…but I am colorful with language…wink wink politics
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 2:46 PM | Link to this
My big problem with the stimulus package is that I who saved my whole life and lived frugally to do so and have no debt. BUT i will be paying MONEY I SAVED to help people who spent and spent and spent some more. When do I—get a stimulus?
By Gale
February 9, 2009 2:53 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, except that in my example the down the road repairs would not be debt. I would be able to pay for those immediately out of pocket, assuming my credit debt was paid. I do not do those needed repairs now because my immediate priority is eliminating my debt. I firmly believe reducing debt is needed by most Americans. We are wrong to “just go shopping” to correct the economy. I am only thinking or repair because my house needs some. I can probably avoid painting for one more year. No tax rebates for paint. Window? That would be nice because some of the double glazing seals have failed. But no. Homeowners who don’t put money into the house yearly can watch it fall down around them. If the repairs were not needed, I would pop the money into savings.
I agree completely in the main. Spending money you do not have when you already cannot pay your debt is not prudent. And as SD said earlier, government created jobs are not a long term solution. They will go away with the funding. Many more people have figured out that debt is bad. That is why the programs being floated do not have popular support. Many people would pay debts or save that stimulus money.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 2:56 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel 2:46 So often the hardest workers are rewared with more work. I often say, stupid should be punished. If it hurts, they won’t do it again.
By AW
February 9, 2009 2:58 PM | Link to this
If you’re going to feed the trolls today, please do so with products containing Blakely, Georgia peanut butter. I’d like to hear them complain about how their tax dollars are wasted on non-essential, stupid government giveaway programs like funding and staffing food safety regulatory departments and sufficient numbers of inspectors to do the job correctly. “Gub’mint IS the problem!” Uh-huh. File that right between “We don’t need no regulation!” and “We must not question the missing billion$ in Iraq when the Republican$ are in charge.”
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 3:01 PM | Link to this
Gale
So listening mode is required? So basically, you just want to lecture. Is that right?
So do I ever get to lecture? When can I expect you to be in listening mode? Not a whole lot of people come to a political blog to listen.
Gale I am watching the country that I love fall apart. I have perfect credit and I can’t get a signature loan. They wanted the title for my Nissan for a lousy 20 grand. I got the money for this house without taking out a mortgage. It was a signature loan and it is almost paid off, but I now can’t get 20 grand without being treated like I am going to the title pawn office. I haven’t incorporated my new business yet. I will probably follow most new businesses and incorporate off shore. Costa Rica is looking very good right now. Ireland is also looking really good. There is no incentive to establish a business here. Looking at the government and their abject hate for anything that is not government controlled, i just can’t see investing the money here. Do you think that I am the only one?
This is real. It is not our great grandchildren paying off a debt that is now being discussed. It is the collapse of our economy and the democrats are insisting on borrowing almost a trillion dollars for their pork projects and our new president is throwing tantrums because the party that he talked about like they were the scum of the earth won’t support him on it. Think about that: You are being told that borrowing a trillion dollars is good for our ecomony. Doesn’t that set off any alarms at all?
The things that politicians are saying are scaring the crap out of everyone. YOUR Congress gave billions to banks and it did nothing. Now they are telling us if they pay for all the democratic pork that they have tried to push through for years, it will somehow stimulate the economy when billions to the lending institutions did nothing. Almost everyone I know has lost most of their retirement and they are watching the democrats giving away almost a trillion dollars and not a dime to help them.
Most of the recipients of the money are government agencies or businesses that have very large and powerful lobbying groups in Washington. What happened to Obam’s anti lobby stance? Hell, what heppened to 90% of the things he promised? Three years before we can see an improvement? And this is HOPE?
The Middle Class always gets screwed. That’s a given. But this time, we really need the help. But once again, we won’t get the help. Unless you are a government employee, an employee of a government vendor or a welfare recipient, you will be ignored, like you are always ignored. But this time, the middle class just can’t take the hit. And many democrats are screaming because our taxes are not being raised fast enough.
We need dialogue. I apologize for returning the bile that is handed out, but that’s the way it is. Show some respect for my opinion and i will show some respect for yours.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 3:07 PM | Link to this
I like that Gale. Paying off the debt before adding new. This is just a really sore subject because too many Americans (and especially our politicians) do not consider the expense of the expenses they made on credit.
What happens when China asks for payment on our debts so they can stimulate their own economy? Uh gee—whiz? Do we sell Puerto Rico?
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 3:13 PM | Link to this
AW
So the peanut deal is actually the fault of the Republicans. LOL!!
Here’s your problem. There were government regulators. They just didn’t do their job. See that’s what happens when the government is in charge. It’s a gov’ment job. Good enough for gov’ment work.
If the regulators were contractors who could be held responsible for the mistkes they made, they would be held accountable, not like the gov’ment stooges that were, like most of the government, too incompentant to do their jobs.
But thanks for bringing it up and pointing out not only how incompetent the government is, but how ignorant you are. PS Say congrats to Sunshine, you none-caring twit.
Now THAT, USinUK is shooting a fish in a barrel.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 3:21 PM | Link to this
TOJ, you lecture a lot, often accompanied with offensinve language directed at anyone who disagrees. I have noted that your opinion will not be changed on certain topics, so it is pointless to engage in discussion with you on those topics. Those are ‘agree to disagree’ issues.
You again make yourself an outsider when you say “YOUR congress”. TOJ, They are also your congress. FWIW, my congressional votes were mixed. I don’t vote a party line. As for moving to a different country, go ahead. You seem to be unattached and free to move. I might consider moving to a country that would allow me to marry the consenting adult of my choice. But you know what, I am invested in this country and I think it is a pretty good place to live. I fully expect the ecomomy to survive. Try suggesting alternative solutions instead of complaining about the solutions being presented. It takes more than shouting down the other side.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 3:23 PM | Link to this
Lyra -
My big problem with the stimulus package is that I who saved my whole life and lived frugally to do so and have no debt. BUT i will be paying MONEY I SAVED to help people who spent and spent and spent some more. When do I—get a stimulus?
don’t confuse the stimulus package with the bank bailouts and TARP program - those are 3 very different and very distinct things.
By Gale
February 9, 2009 3:25 PM | Link to this
re the peanut issue, did anyone notice the people indicted in the Chinese milk tainting were sentenced to death? They take failing the public trust seriously over there.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 3:26 PM | Link to this
AW— have you noticed how richer ol’ Sonny Perdue is now than when he came in office?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$its who you know$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$in politics$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Makes sense to invest in GA a state of such lax oversight, don’t it? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Did ya notice the old bbq supper all them Georgia boys had in Savannah…was a lot of pork and nothin’ peanut in the menu? We should’a sat them down for a whompin’ good meal that has left people dead—-but boys will be boys. Wink wink politics.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 3:27 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
I don’t know. The answers are just so obvious. Gale just railed and railed about her own debt but can’t seem to understand that we will need to borrow every dime of this new “stimulus package”. We are now printing more unfunded money than ever in our history. The amount of money going into our national coffers just doubled since October, but we had no more money to fund that printing.
Now, Congress is beginning to listen to the economists that are telling them about the times that Europeans had to carry the money for a loaf of bread in a wheel burro, so in order to counter that effect, they are willing to borrow the money from China.
To democrats, it’s never the idea of stopping the spending. it is just a matter of where can we get the money. I know that Bush went along with the bank bail out and for that I would never defend him again, but we were promised change.
Are you seeing any change except the change between bad to worse?
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 3:35 PM | Link to this
UsinUk—no dear, money is money!! There IS no different money just different program names.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 3:36 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
oh, the wrongness of you … and on so many levels … shooting fish in barrels??? shooting blanks is more like it …
first of all:
“There were government regulators. They just didn’t do their job. See that’s what happens when the government is in charge. It’s a gov’ment job. Good enough for gov’ment work.”
when your budget is cut as the FDA’s was, then it is a lot harder to do your job - not a matter of incompetence, a matter of being asked to control the tide with a bucket.
“Nominal funds for FDA food programs have risen from $407 million in 2003 to $439 million in 2006.4 This funding increase, however, has not been enough to keep up with rising personnel costs and new duties protecting the food supply from terrorism. According to an FDA budget official, the agency’s food division operated under a shortfall of $135 million in 2006 due to increased personnel costs and new terrorism responsibilities, which the official described as equivalent to a 24% budget cut. The official stated: “as long as the resources available to FDA do not keep up with the realities of increasing costs, it is increasingly difficult for FDA to perform in a way that meets public expectations.”
http:// oversight.house.gov/ documents/ 20061101115143-67937.pdf
secondly:
“Obama pardoned the main plotter for the attack on the Cole.”
From Friday’s news: “The meeting took place a day after a senior Pentagon judge dropped charges against Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, an al-Qaida suspect held at Guantanamo and accused of masterminding the USS Cole bombing. New charges against al-Nashiri could be brought later, and he will remain in custody for the time being.”
http://www. washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/06/AR2009020600574.html
he wasn’t PARDONED - the JUDGE in charge of the case said either try him now or drop the charges. the JUDGE opted to drop the charges (VERY different from a Presidential pardon) in order to review the case and charge him later.
if you can be bothered to read the article, you’ll see that the father of one of the boys who died on the Cole doesn’t understand why it’s taken more than 8 years for anything to happen in the first place:
Clodfelter also expressed frustration with the lack of a trial for al-Nashiri eight years after the attack.
“We should have already had this man tried and executed if that’s what the case is,” he said. “I can’t imagine an American that’s in one of our prisons for eight years without anything being done for him.”
be careful in that barrel, TOJ … you’re going to start looking all pruney …
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 3:38 PM | Link to this
To democrats, it’s never the idea of stopping the spending.
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha
yeah. and the GOP was the model of fiscal restraint between 2000 and 2006.
stop. really. my sides.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 3:50 PM | Link to this
TOJ—I buy gold.
You are talking to someone who spent the last 20 years screaming the sky is falling.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 3:55 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
Spending since 2001 has been OUT OF CONTROL. When Republicans held both houses. When Democrats held both houses. When the houses were split.
It may be ammusing to rib folks about saying how Democrats like to spend when the GOP did the same thing but there’s still one point to keep in mind. Just becuase the GOP did it, doesn’t mean we should let the Dems do it. Just because it happened in the past doesn’t mean we should continue the same problematic approach now. We should learn from the mistakes and move on.
Our government needs to CUT SPENDING. PERIOD. Too many programs. Too little money. Get back to a surplus, pay off some of this ridiculous debt and then come talk to us about increasing spending.
Unfortunately, too many voters don’t have any skin in the game. Our progressive taxing system pardons nearly 50% of the population from paying income tax (they do still are subject to the payroll tax). Those people don’t care if the country spends more money BECAUSE IT’S NOT THEIR MONEY.
Instead, Lyrazel and other solid citizens like her, living within her means, saving for retirement, get the shaft.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 3:58 PM | Link to this
USinUK…why blame any Party (dem or rep) when the VAST majority of people in this country were lapdancing on the credit w******* without a care in the world as long as their stock portfolio rose and they had granite countertops who cared if the money is real or not?
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 4:01 PM | Link to this
Today’s butt-kicking was in honor of Sunshine and the new SunSprog …
or, maybe in hope that a certain someone might one day improve his reading comprehension skills - Today was brought to you by the Letter S … the number 5 … and the phrase, “honey, have you seen my keys?”
TOJ, if I may make a suggestion …
maybe you should start with this: http://www. school-house-rock.com/ GrammarRock.html
then, work your way up to this: http://www. school-house-rock.com/ AmericaRock.html
good luck with that. after today, methinks you desperately need it.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 4:06 PM | Link to this
Gale
TOJ, you lecture a lot, often accompanied with offensinve language directed at anyone who disagrees.
Total crap. I return the bile that I am given. This morning, USinUK couldn’t imagine me saying the same thing about Teddy (leave em dead in the ditch) Kennedy and that she had said about Bush. There is no objectivity here. Chuck should work for the UN and so should have Bruno. But that didn’t matter. they disagreed with you guys and you treated them both like you treat everyone and anyone that disagrees with you. Where are they, Gale? And you are lecturing me about shouting down the opposition?
I have noted that your opinion will not be changed on certain topics,
Of course unlike you and the rest of the hard core lefties here. I see you guys bending and compromising all the time. I guess I should be more like you guys. I hope that you are not so indoctrinated as to see the sarcasm.)
so it is pointless to engage in discussion with you on those topics. Those are ‘agree to disagree’ issues.
So you just want to discuss issues with people that only agree with you. That’s what i thought. That’s why I suggested the Democratic Underground or US Libs at about.com.
You again make yourself an outsider when you say “YOUR congress”. TOJ,
No. My Congress went home in 2006 when the economy was still roaring and the DOW was 11,727. http:// www. washingtonpost. com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100300934. html It is my country’s Congress, but what they do, I tried to prevent.
They are also your congress. FWIW, my congressional votes were mixed. I don’t vote a party line.
Really. So which Republican House Member or Senator did you support? Did you vote for Saxby? How about Johnny Issacson? Jack Kingston? Lynn Westmoreland? Tom Price? John Linder? Nathan Deal? Paul Broun? Phil Gingrey? Which one, Gale? That’s all the Republicans we have in the House and the Senate. I really want / need to know which Republican you voted for.
As for moving to a different country, go ahead. You seem to be unattached and free to move.
Starting an internet company off shore is not moving off shore. However, I would consider moving to another country if I felt my business would have a better chance of success.
I might consider moving to a country that would allow me to marry the consenting adult of my choice.
Really? Which country would that be? There’s not many.
But you know what, I am invested in this country and I think it is a pretty good place to live.
That’s because you work for somebody else. You aren’t paying 20% in business taxes while most of the planet pays less than 15. I would bet 100 bucks that you have no idea what you paid in taxes last year. It’s taken out of your pay. You look at tax time as getting a refund. It’s part of the indoctrination.
I fully expect the ecomomy to survive. Try suggesting alternative solutions instead of complaining about the solutions being presented. It takes more than shouting down the other side.
There are no solutions being presented. What solutions? Borrow a trillion bucks from China? That’s the solution that I am supposed to support? Are you crazy? My solution is to let a capitalist economy recover. My solution is to require that every congressperson memorize and be able to recite every word on every page of that 700 page mess that will bankrupt our great grandchildren before they sign it. My solution is to take people like Robert Riech who claimed on ABCs Sunday Morning show that we need to pass this now, even if it is wrong and take him to the tazor training center to be used as a test subject any time he says crap like that. You have just never asked me for my solutions.
By The Other Jack
February 9, 2009 4:11 PM | Link to this
USinUK
You are really making a fool of yourself. You can crow and brag all you want, but look who you voted for. After just two weeks of his nonsense, I would be hanging my head in shame if I were you. Your posts have become nothing more than pathetic attempts at justification for your hate and frustration.
I never understood why you were so quick to side with someone as vile and low class as the stupid joke. Lately the reasons are crystal clear.
By 2D
February 9, 2009 4:28 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
We all might want to re-watch “America Rock”. Learn a little bit and help us to realize that this country was built by the hard work, daring and ingenuity of individuals. Something we are greatly lacking these days.
The tunes are catchy and I must admit I now shed a tear during “The Shot Heard ‘Round The World”.
By Bruno
February 9, 2009 4:28 PM | Link to this
Howdy gang!
First and foremost, a hearty congrats to Sunshine for making it through your pregnancy. Now comes the easy part—raising a kid in this crazy world. : > }
Our government needs to CUT SPENDING. PERIOD. Too many programs. Too little money. Get back to a surplus, pay off some of this ridiculous debt and then come talk to us about increasing spending.
2D—I greatly appreciate your intelligent discussion of the disastrous “stimulus package” this week. As much as I appreciate the Keynesian idea of “priming the pump”, this bill looks more and more like pork the more I learn of the details. If out-of-control deficit spending was the panacea that Obama & Co. seem to think it is, then we should be rolling in the dough right now following 8 years of uncontrolled spending under Bush.
Unfortunately, too many voters don’t have any skin in the game. Our progressive taxing system pardons nearly 50% of the population from paying income tax (they do still are subject to the payroll tax). Those people don’t care if the country spends more money BECAUSE IT’S NOT THEIR MONEY.
Many years ago, some political pundit (Newt Gingrich, I think) made the prediction that the next major revolution in our country will be between the tax-payers and the tax-recipients. Following the Bush tax cuts, a substantial percentage of folks began paying NO federal taxes at all, which is a dangerous situation IMO. When people don’t have any stake in the game, their behavior changes drastically. E.G. No one treats a rental car as well as their own car.
By Lyrazel
February 9, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
The House Democratic Caucus spent more than $500,000 in taxpayer money over the past five years for its annual retreats at resorts in Pennsylvania and Virginia.
On Thursday, Democrats will head to the Kingsmill Resort and Spa in historic Williamsburg, Va., for the three-day planning powwow. The resort boasts multiple championship golf courses, a full-service spa and six restaurants.
Individual lawmakers pay for most of the expenses related to retreat lodging through their campaign committees, but the Democratic Caucus subsidizes some of the costs for what aides consider “official business” — to the tune of nearly $100,000 each year, according to a Democratic aide involved in retreat planning. For instance, the caucus picks up the hefty transportation tab, as well as the thousands of dollars in expenses each year for guest speakers, food and entertainment, according to financial disbursement records.
Democratic leadership sources were reluctant to talk about any aspect of the trip, but they defended it as an important planning session for the entire country.
“This retreat is strategic planning for the country,” said Democratic Caucus spokeswoman Emily Barocas. “The president, vice president and three Cabinet secretaries will be meeting with the caucus to plan the direction we are taking the country in.”
By Bruno
February 9, 2009 4:45 PM | Link to this
USinUK…why blame any Party (dem or rep) when the VAST majority of people in this country were lapdancing on the credit w** without a care in the world as long as their stock portfolio rose and they had granite countertops who cared if the money is real or not*?
Lyrazel—Wouldn’t it be great if we humans spent a lot less time looking for someone to blame for our problems and spent a lot more time working on solutions without worrying about who gets the credit?? Apparently there is something in our collective psyches which loves to play the “blame game”.
By USinUK
February 9, 2009 5:01 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
You are really making a fool of yourself. You can crow and brag all you want, but look who you voted for.
hahahahahaha … wow, back to the straw-clutching, are we?? you’ve been wrong about every single thing you’ve posted today and you say I* have made a fool of myself???
and your witty riposte? “oh, yeah? well, look who you voted for!”
wow. make sure you stretch after that one … would hate to think you strained something.
By Frustrated
February 9, 2009 5:05 PM | Link to this
Hey bloggers!!!
I am sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but did anyone read where $600M of the $900B stimulus plan was to upgrade the Goverment Fleet to more fuel efficient cars???
$600 MILLION?????????? Are you serious????? Am I missing something important??
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 8:20 AM | Link to this
G’morning, Frustrated!
I hope you’re fully recovered from your bout of the plague.
regarding your question about auto purchases - from the Detroit News (http:// www. detnews.com/apps/ pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090209/NATION/902090437/1020/NATION)
The Senate bill is the product of a compromise by a small group of Democratic and Republican moderates reached late Friday. That compromise cut in half a $600 million program to buy new, fuel-efficient cars for government fleets. It’s a program Republicans have derided but Obama has defended.
Sen. Carl Levin, D-Detroit, said it wasn’t clear if they could get the $300 million cut restored. “It’s one of many items we’re going to talk to the conferees about,” Levin said.
He noted they got $100 million for Defense Department auto spending restored in the final Senate bill. “That was something we fought hard for,” Levin said. “Our focus was on making sure that there was significant amount to purchase vehicles.”
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 8:28 AM | Link to this
2D -
in no particular order:
SchoolHouse Rock - who didn’t love SHR???!!! Probably some of the best educational programming produced in years! (I’ll definitely take it over the “Baby Einstein” crapola) … my personal favs were grammar (“any person you can know … any place you can go … any thing you can show, well it’s a noun”), math (“3 …. it’s a magic number … yes it is … it’s a magic number”) and history (“well they were sufferin’ until sufferage … not a woman here could vote, no matter what age … “) Great stuff!!
The gallup poll - I think you missed the part where they asked if the stimulus bill was needed (not just what people’s opinions of how the Ds and Rs handled it): “The same survey shows that a majority, 51%, say it is “critical important” for the federal government to approve a stimulus plan, while 29% said it was “important but not critical.”
and finally - “Just becuase the GOP did it, doesn’t mean we should let the Dems do it. Just because it happened in the past doesn’t mean we should continue the same problematic approach now. We should learn from the mistakes and move on.”
I totally agree that we need to look at spending - the where, what and why - and put our VERY limited resources where they will create jobs or provide much-needed assistance (both at the state level and individual).
what I object to is being lectured by the GOP, who have suddenly “seen the light” about fiscal responsibility. it’s akin to being lectured on chastity by a porn star … or, more appropriately, being lectured on temperance by a drunken sailor (which is what these guys spent like for 6 unfettered years).
By Frustrated
February 10, 2009 8:31 AM | Link to this
Hey US!
The plague is over, just battling what is left from the head cold…I can’t wait for the weather to make up it’s mind.
With your post, I can understand they are trying to help the auto industry with making jobs and so forth….but is that kind of spending really essential???
I just have a bad feeling that this is going to turn into a train wreck.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 8:43 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“USinUK…why blame any Party (dem or rep) when the VAST majority of people in this country were lapdancing on the credit w* without a care in the world as long as their stock portfolio rose and they had granite countertops who cared if the money is real or not?”
As I said to 2D - my point isn’t to cast blame, it’s to say that, before the GOP starts pontificating about fiscal responsibility, they should maybe reflect on their not-so-responsible tour of duty when they held the house, senate and White House.
And, lastly, while I agree with you that there was a ludicrous amount of personal irresponsibility (negative savings rate, getting 0% down mortgages, leveraging the household budget to the hilt) - the pickle in which the world finds itself - not just the US, this is a worldwide problem - isn’t because 20% of the homeowners were sub-prime borrowers. It isn’t the granite countertops. It isn’t the “must-have-new-car” syndrome.
The problem is that the banks passed on the risk of all these borrowers to investors via vehicles like derivatives - unmonitored, unregulated derivatives. No one knew (and they still don’t know) exactly how much exposure is out there and who owns it. That’s why the banks haven’t been lending to each other. That’s why the gov’t had to step in and rescue AIG as well as all the banks - and that’s why the Fed is talking about finding a way to deal with all these toxic assets.
In other words, while personal deficit spending has not helped the situation, it is by no means the cause of the situation in which the market finds itself.
Anyhoo. them’s my £0.02.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 8:47 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
My sister tells me it’s in the 60s this week??? after being in the 20s last week??? good gravy - no wonder everyone is suffering!
“With your post, I can understand they are trying to help the auto industry with making jobs and so forth….but is that kind of spending really essential???”
well, look at it this way - would you rather they get $600M (or $300M) in federal aid, or would you like the Feds to actually GET something for it?? The automakers are dealing with too much inventory, anyway, so this would help them clear their decks. Plus, the gummint always gets rid of their old cars via auto auctions, so they’ll get some revenue from that. PLUS, if they’re more fuel-efficient cars, it’ll be better on future gov. outlay.
(shrug) I dunno. It seems to kill more than a few birds with one stone …
“I just have a bad feeling that this is going to turn into a train wreck.”
When it comes to spending bills, I’m always reminded of the adage “A camel is a racehorse designed by committee”
By 2D
February 10, 2009 8:55 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
“3 Is A Magic Number” is great. I also seem to have “Interjection!” floating in my mind for days after my daughter watches the DVD.
Back to the stimulus polls. I apologize, I did miss your second point when skimming through the responses. However, that second poll really only identifies whether or not people believe it is critically important government should intervene, and that is a very small majority. It does not at all poll if people agree with the type and scope of intervention.
I am one of those people who believe the government should be doing something, but do not agree with what has been proposed. I suspect (again that is a suspician) that I am with the majority of the populous. Fix the problems. Don’t treat the symptoms. Right now, it seems the current bill does too much of the latter and not enough of the former.
You are correct. The GOP should not be lecturing anyone. Nor do I want to be lectured by Democrats. Neither of the political parties have done a very good job of managing the country’s balance sheet. We haven’t seen efficient government since a Center-Right Congress partnered with a Center-Left President.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 8:56 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“UsinUk—no dear, money is money!! There IS no different money just different program names.”
d-oh! I nearly forgot.
I understand what you’re saying that money is money and, ultimately, it’s all taxpayer money … however, as Sunshine likes to say, words mean something. the stimulus bill /= bank bailout legislation /= Fed programs to increase market liquidity. They are 3 completely different programs with 3 completely different goals.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 9:12 AM | Link to this
2D-
“It does not at all poll if people agree with the type and scope of intervention.”
hrm. ya gotta wonder if this is one of those “ask 10 different people, get 10 different reponses” situations - or if we really are closer than we think on a unified response, but it’s in the deets.
I think that LIMITED tax cuts (with a sunset) are ONE of the answers, but we do need to look at helping the states shore up some of their programs which are seeing cuts and will result in job cuts … as well as actually create jobs by doing some of the projects that have desperately needed to be done since the 1990s.
“Neither of the political parties have done a very good job of managing the country’s balance sheet.”
someone here mentioned “Dave” the other day - the scene where he gets his accountant friend to come in and help find $$$ in the budget for the first lady’s program. his friend says something like “If I ran my business this way, I would be out of business”. There needs to be better assessment of existing programs - and hard decisions need to be made (along the “fish or cut bait” lines).
Sadly, though, the way the budget program works, you’re rewarded if you spend all your budget, not if you save money. If you come in under budget, you get your budget cut. Now, what kind of system is THAT???!!!
(and “interjection!” is a good one … so is “lolly, lolly, lolly, get your adverbs here”)
By Gale
February 10, 2009 9:26 AM | Link to this
re: Fed auto replacements. I heard an interview about this issue. Apparently, the Fed replaces about 10% of its auto fleet every year. This will target fuel efficient cars, but not change that spend a lot. However, if they also buy the normal number of replacement vehicles, that would be overspend. I might also add that Detroit probably does not have much of an inventory surplus of the fuel efficient cars. It’s the gas hogs they cannot sell. Also, there is that pesky buy American clause that has been fought over.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 9:33 AM | Link to this
827 billion dollars and the most we can expect is 4 million jobs.
That works out to between 200-300 thousand dollars spent to create each temporary government job.
And the “no=pork” president marches on.
By Mara
February 10, 2009 9:34 AM | Link to this
“SchoolHouse Rock - who didn’t love SHR???!!!”
sad, sad. Blossom Dearie, the lady who lent her voice to Schoolhouse Rock tunes like “Mother Necessity,” “Figure Eight” and “Unpack Your Adjectives”, died in her NYC home Saturday morning. Though she was a jazz/blues artist of some fame, I think most people would recognize her Schoolhouse Rock songs sooner than they would “My Gentleman Friend”.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 9:46 AM | Link to this
G’morning Gale!!
First, the “buy American” provision only dealt with steel and iron (not finished products) - and it seems like the Senate version of the bill deals with that in a way that was good for everyone. (http:// ca.reuters.com/ article/domesticNews/idCATRE51883220090209)
As for US Automakers - they have HUGE amounts of inventory right now - retail has been extremely low for the last 4 months, with auto sales a drag on overall retail since May/June of last year. Trucks, SUVs, fuel-efficient cars - it doesn’t matter - there’s loads of them for the taking.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 9:49 AM | Link to this
Mara -
“Blossom Dearie, the lady who lent her voice to Schoolhouse Rock tunes like “Mother Necessity,” “Figure Eight” and “Unpack Your Adjectives”, died in her NYC home Saturday morning.”
:-(
I thought there was a disturbance in the Force …
did you also hear that the bassist from Buena Vista also died??? Thank you Ry Cooder for sharing him with the rest of us!!!
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 9:56 AM | Link to this
interesting - John McCain’s economic advisor prefers the House version of the stimulus package:
Feb. 10 (Bloomberg) — Economists who support legislation to stimulate growth say the version passed in the House of Representatives would create at least half a million more jobs than the bill the Senate votes on today.
The key difference: The Senate version provides less money than the House measure for public works and aid to state and local governments. While the two measures have similar price tags, the Senate’s includes bigger tax cuts and adds tax breaks for auto and home buyers, part of a compromise to win some Republican votes.
“The House bill will create more jobs and a stronger economy than the Senate bill,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com, who was a campaign adviser to Republican presidential candidate John McCain. Zandi estimates that the $838 billion Senate package would create about 625,000 fewer jobs than the $819 billion House version over the next two years.
http://www. bloomberg.com/ apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aiT9G38uiOG8&refer=economy
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this
Arlen Spector on FOX, just now:
“It is a bad idea and we hope we will be able to fix it before it is pushed through”. Yea. Sounds like he’s a real fan.
America__What have you done?
President Obama has had, by general consent, a torrid First Fortnight. To put it another way, it has taken precisely two weeks for the illusion that brought him to power to be exposed for the nonsense that it so obviously was. The transformational candidate who was going to sweep away pork-barrel politics, lobbyists and corruption has been up to his neck in sleaze, as eviscerated here by Charles Krauthammer. Despite the fact that he came to power promising to ‘ban all earmarks’, his ‘stimulus’ bill represents billions of dollars of special-interest tax breaks, giveaways and protections — which have nothing to do with kick-starting the economy and everything to do with favouring pet Democrat causes.
From The UK’s The Spectator.
the whole article:
http:// www. spectator. co. uk /melaniephillips/3332636/america-what-have-you-don
By Mara
February 10, 2009 10:04 AM | Link to this
caught this over at Zero Hedge and it sent a shiver down my spine at how close we came to REAL disaster…
At 2 minutes and 20 seconds in the video below, Democratic Representative Kanjorski explains how the Federal Reserve told Congress members about a “tremendous draw-down of money market accounts in the United States, to the tune of $550 billion dollars.” According to Kanjorski, this electronic transfer occurred over the period of an hour or two. And it gets worse. Kanjorski paraphrases the following disclosure by Bernanke and Paulson:
On Thursday (Sept 18), at 11am the Federal Reserve noticed a tremendous draw-down of money market accounts in the U.S., to the tune of $550 billion was being drawn out in the matter of an hour or two. The Treasury opened up its window to help and pumped a $105 billion in the system and quickly realized that they could not stem the tide. We were having an electronic run on the banks. They decided to close the operation, close down the money accounts and announce a guarantee of $250,000 per account so there wouldn’t be further panic out there.
If they had not done that, their estimation is that by 2pm that afternoon, $5.5 trillion would have been drawn out of the money market system of the U.S., would have collapsed the entire economy of the U.S., and within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed. It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it.
We are no better off today than we were 3 months ago because we have a decrease in the equity positions of banks because other assets are going sour by the moment.
the C-span video they’re talking about can be found here - zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-world-almost-came-to-end-at-2pm-on.html
By 2D
February 10, 2009 10:09 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
The polling questions do not provide for a great deal of subjective thought on the part of the person being polled so you will not ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers. The poll you referenced probably asked a question along the lines of:
“At what urgency should the government take action in the economic situation?”
then gave the individual a multiple choice of each bucket you gave a % for. The answers were tallied, calculated into percentages and voila, we have our poll. That type of poll, however, does not gain any insight into whether the person agrees with the content of the bill, just whether or not the government should do something. Again, I like most people believe the government should do something, but not just throw a bunch of stuff on the wall and see what sticks.
BTW… I’m no economist but…
How can one measure if a job has been saved? The President continues to save “save or create” 2.5, 3. 4 million jobs, but how do you measure that metric? How does the government quantify which jobs are saved through the passage of this bill? Talk about esoteric.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 10:17 AM | Link to this
On Thursday (Sept 18), at 11am the Federal Reserve noticed a tremendous draw-down of money market accounts in the U.S., to the tune of $550 billion was being drawn out in the matter of an hour or two.
so … what happened prior to Sept 18th to cause such a draw-down???
Sept 14: Lehman Brothers files for bankruptcy. Stock markets plummet; Central banks inject billions of dollars into money markets. Bank of America agrees to buy Merrill Lynch.
Sept. 16: AIG Corp, the world’s biggest insurer, bailed out by the U.S. Federal Reserve. Morgan Stanley and Wachovia enter merger talks.
Sept. 17: Halifax Bank of Scotland (HBOS) to merge with UK bank Lloyds TSB in an emergency rescue plan.
Sept. 18: Federal Bank and other central banks inject billions into global markets to help ease the crunch.
… I know bailouts stick in the craw for most of us - but, if we let giants like AIG go the way of Lehman, we’d be in the financial equivalent of the dark ages.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 10:22 AM | Link to this
2D -
“How can one measure if a job has been saved? The President continues to save “save or create” 2.5, 3. 4 million jobs, but how do you measure that metric? How does the government quantify which jobs are saved through the passage of this bill? Talk about esoteric.”
actually, that is fairly easy given the tremendous number of statistics the various departments compile (commerce, labor, etc). plus, you have reports of companies’ planned force reductions (how many, what sector, etc) as well as what the states are doing in the public sector. Then, you can compare the current trajectory with the changes to that trajectory.
As for me, I think one of the most tell-tale statistics will be the number of people shifting from part-time to full-time employment.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 10:25 AM | Link to this
Mara
I believe that the sky is falling. A cloud crushed the dog house last night. Does the moon look really big to you? I think it is heading our way.
For the past eight years, Conservatives have had to listen to the screams that the Republicans use fear to control the country. Now we are about to see yet another attempt at throwing money at the problem. And according to the fear mongering democrats, we have to do it NOW. The largest and most partisan bill in history and the controlling party is not allowing hearings. Not allowing discussions and according to Obama, all that pork might somehow create magical jobs.
Last night we got a good example of what to expect. Obama doesn’t answer press questions. He allows specific reporters to ask questions that are simply launching points for a speech, instead of an answer. His first answer was over 10 minutes long and at the end of his 10 minute speeech, as per usual, he had said or explained nothing.
All the questions were pre-screened, so they ended up being such riveting inquiries like Helen Thomas’ offer: Do you think the Taliban is in Pakistan? Wow. She really stuck it to him there, huh?
Insert fear. Control the press. Allow no debate. Blame all the problems on the Republicans even though they have not been in charge since the economy was roaring. Make the problem much worse than it is. (The worst economic crisis since the depression. Ignoring double digit unemployment during Carter’s years)
It is what I expected. How about you?
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
sorry, 2D - meant to include this link to the survey earlier:
http:// www. gallup.com/ poll/114097/ Americans-Support-Stimulus-Major-Changes.aspx
By Mara
February 10, 2009 10:31 AM | Link to this
USinUK - “I know bailouts stick in the craw for most of us”
what makes the whole TARP funding such a bitter pill for me is the complete lack of oversight and/or accountability for the way the banks use the money. A failing company using taxpayer money to pay out DIVIDENDS?! To buy up ASSETS?! Spa retreats and Vegas parties?! It still makes me grit my teeth and grrrrrrrrrr!
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 10:49 AM | Link to this
Mara -
“what makes the whole TARP funding such a bitter pill for me is the complete lack of oversight and/or accountability for the way the banks use the money”
gah - I agree. the oversight since it was set up has been abysmal. Have you seen this?? http:// www.time.com/time/ nation/article/0,8599,1877511,00.html
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 10:56 AM | Link to this
No TOJ she (thomas) ALSO did not get her question answered: what middle east country has nukes. Wont get the answer because the US cant admit Israel has nukes—would not sit well with our friends over there. It was a question she knew would not be answered—so is it a good question or a bad waste of time? I was enthused by his articulate delivery. The rhetoric goes with the job and has been that way since Washington probably. It was not a time for debate—debates are over for him—debate can continue in House & Senate———————————> Which leads to my question: IF there is an effort to curb perks of banks/firms getting bailout money——should not our own elected officials practice the same penny pinching? They do receive taxpayer money in terms of salaries, etc. Ok—so why when they are flying home for their vacation——————->why are none going on public airlines? Coach Like Me? If the plan is to cut wasteful spending what part of us wants to see government elected/appointed officials in private jets supplied by special interest groups? Should the Perks Stop Here factor also factor in our government officials. (Never mind the prez plane. we know its special. its one of the necessities of office)
USinUk—money is money. dont care who it goes to. we don’t have that amount in our coffers—so either it will have to be printed (thus devaluating the dollar) or borrowed from other nations. We cant have silly Buy America programs when American manufacturers do not even make nails for construction. Even to build America we will be importing more goods than we are manufacturing.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 11:07 AM | Link to this
Lyra -
“we don’t have that amount in our coffers—so either it will have to be printed (thus devaluating the dollar) or borrowed from other nations.”
we’ve already upped the number of Treasury auctions and are considering re-introducing the 7-year bond, as well. the “borrowing from other nations” train left the station a long time ago (hello, China!). the good news (if you can call it that), is that countries - not just regular and institutional investors - are becoming risk-adverse, as well, so they have been turning away from equities and back to Treasuries (US and other AAA countries, as well) - so, at least we have buyers for our debt. the bigger problem would be if we had none.
“We cant have silly Buy America programs when American manufacturers do not even make nails for construction. Even to build America we will be importing more goods than we are manufacturing”
as I said to Gale earlier - that provision has been amended (and only applied to intermediate goods, anyway - steel and iron - not manufactured goods).
By Mara
February 10, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this
oh fer gawd sake, TOJ, give it a frickin’ rest already. The item was from Congressional testimony by the Fed chairman and Bush’s Treasury Secratery and it was about a factual event that happened to the markets LAST SEPTEMBER. Okay? So enough with the snide. I, for one, am sick and tired of listening to you whine.
I think 2D, Frustrated, and Bruno are well able to uphold the conservative viewpoint without using the kind of venom you lace your comments with. If you’ve got something interesting or relevant to add, bring it on.
But if all you got is your usual rubbish, why don’t you just go home to the Free Republic, RedState, or whatever rightwing whinefest makes you feel the most self-satisfaction.
By 2D
February 10, 2009 11:25 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
Unfortunately, the process you just described does not measure jobs saved due to the stimulus package versus the natural ebb and flow of business and the economy.
Most certainly, the economy is trending down on the whole, but some industries are trending up. Thrift stores, QSR restaurants, auto parts stores are all examples of the economy where we will start to see increases in workers and revenue, not losses. So here’s a real life example based on the auto parts store listed above:
The auto parts store, let’s say AutoZone for the example, projects it will see an expansion in it’s business due to increased demands for it’s goods. This is because many people will opt to fix and maintain their cars rather than purchase new ones.
This cycle will cause an increased demand in a variety of places: mechanics, store workers, people making the parts, construction on new or updating of existing stores, hardware/software to make the store operate. Because these types of decisions take a long time to manifest, the current projections will not take these potential new business opportunities into account.
Due to the real life scenario above, we will see better trends for the mechanics, construction workers, parts makers, software / hardware companies and for AutoZone. This improved trend will have NOTHING to do with the stimulus package. It will have EVERYTHING to do with the natural ebb and flow of the economy. However, under your scenario, the stimulus package will get credit for improving these trends.
The President has outlined a goal that cannot be quantified. Or, at the very least, he can control the output so that it appears he has met his goals.
But, more distressing to me, is that he continues to change the goal. First it was create 3 million new jobs. Then it was create 2.5 million new jobs. Then it was create or save 2.5 million jobs, etc. It makes me wonder…
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 11:33 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t it be great if we humans spent a lot less time looking for someone to blame for our problems and spent a lot more time working on solutions without worrying about who gets the credit?? Apparently there is something in our collective psyches which loves to play the “blame game”.
Yes, Bruno. Who gets the credit is important to A-type personality folk who need that sort of pedestal to preen on in public—otherwise—they are just number crunchers and workadays like the rest of us… America has been obsessed with A-types for awhile now indeed most advertisements feature that never satisfied type—bigger better faster more.
I am a D+ personality.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 11:47 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel
I am very concerned about all the fear mongering. These are huge amounts of money and Obama’s ability to tell lies at the drop of a hat are expected, but very troubling. He is setting goals and standards that could never be proven or dis-proven. There are probably four million jobs being brokered this week, but who gets the credit for those jobs will be dictated by the government and obeyed by the media.
These is no doubt that one way or another, depending on how he twists the numbers, he will be able to claim a victory, even if we will be hearing about that victory while standing in soup lines. He is a world class, state of the art politician. He also has the advantage of an extremely biased media, (as was demonstrated last night).
I saw a chart showing the breakdown for the billions being given away. I cannot find it today. But it was nothing but the same old democratic pork that it always is. Not hardly anything there that will help the middle class. if you are a government employee, a government vendor or on welfare, you are golden. WHAT A SURPRISE!!!
i’ve been reading about how California flipped from being one of the most conservative states in the union to becoming one of the most liberal. It is all about the influx of foreign nationals. The state became a haven for anyone who promised to vote democratic. Now, like everything else the democrats touch, it is a horrible mess with no hope of ever being the economically sound state that it once was. As was seen in the last election, they do not play fair. They lie, make promises and use their media to do whatever it takes to take over the country.
And of course we are just seeing the beginning of the completely bizarre policies that they are enacting. His first move was to close Gitmo and one of the following moves was to pardon the guy who plotted to blow up the Cole, while promising to keep this person with no charges against him in prison. WTF? And this is the first month. We will be lucky to survive this.
There is no hope of getting any liberal on this board to even acknowledge the corruption and/or the hypocrisy of the Democrats in Congress. After explaining to Mara yesterday about the horrible treatment Mary Landry showed to her voting public during Katrina, she commented that she supposed that Landry could have been more articulate. I don’t know if they just don’t get it or they just don’t care.
They would gladly castrate any CEO that would dare use his company’s money for a business retreat, but let the dims have a retreat and no a word will be said.
You are right now where many of us were several months ago. They are sort of being nice, but after too much truth and logic, expect the same melt down that the rest of us have seen.
By Gale
February 10, 2009 11:48 AM | Link to this
“tax breaks for auto and home buyers” I agree that seems dumb. Tax breaks to encourage people to spend money they do not have. I think instead the gov should listen to the people saying don’t spend what you don’t have.
re: Buy American and steel. I sure hope there is some money to upgrade steel manufacturing in American then. That is the reason foreign steel is a better buy. We have let our manufacturing plants grow old.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 12:01 PM | Link to this
Two words: Industrial Hemp. Legalize it, grow it, export it, make s—t out of it, export the s—t we make out of it, tax it. We’ll never get back on our feet until we start making stuff HERE that we will buy and use, and that other countries will buy and use. We’re in this mess because of all the fabricated wealth. Money that only exists on paper is not real wealth. Let’s grow and build things people need, and we can make a way forward.
WHY IS THIS ILLEGAL? Ask the religious righties and the big pharmaceutical lobbies. Even though hemp won’t get you high (and so what if it did…), we’ll have none of that common sense ‘round here! Geez.
By Jack
February 10, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this
No Gale. The Unions priced US steel out of business.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 12:07 PM | Link to this
2D -
“But, more distressing to me, is that he continues to change the goal. First it was create 3 million new jobs. Then it was create 2.5 million new jobs. Then it was create or save 2.5 million jobs, etc. It makes me wonder…”
well, the non-partisan CBO said that the bill that was in the Senate prior to the compromise could create between 1.3 to 3.9 million jobs before the end of 2010 then an additional 0.6 to 1.9 million by the end of 2011. So, on the low end, you achieve 65% of the target, on the high end, you double it. That tells me that we should probably land somewhere right around the target.
your autozone example is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to trajectory - the Dept of Labor knows the first sectors to get hit - and which sectors pick up the slack (just like Commerce knows that, in a downturn, people stop shopping at Neimans and start shopping at Target).
For instance, if the construction sector suddenly sees an uptick (after months of declines), the Dept of Labor will know what they are building and can then gauge if that is related to the stimulus bill. (if they’re building schools = stimulus, if they’re building houses, not so much). I never cease to be amazed at the amount of detail that the different departments track, so I think it will be fairly simple - not 100% accurate, but definitely 80/20 - to track how well employment responded.
By Mara
February 10, 2009 12:12 PM | Link to this
Mary Landry? (snort) I said NOTHING about how articulate Mary Landry is or is not.
Rear Admiral Mary E. Landry serves as the Coast Guard’s Director of Governmental and Public Affairs. She is responsible for ensuring the Coast Guard provides accurate, timely and strategic information internally to Coast Guard members and externally to the American public, the United States Congress, other governmental agencies, and the private sector. In addition to her duties at Coast Guard Headquarters, Rear Admiral Landry is also Chief of Staff for the National pre-designated Pandemic Influenza PFO. These duties require working with agencies and the private sector at the federal, state, and local level to maintain the nation’s preparedness for incidents of national significance.
maybe we should get ‘Mary Landry’ on ‘Jon Scott’s’ news show and see how unamusing and inarticulate the two of them are…sheesh.
By Pointer
February 10, 2009 12:15 PM | Link to this
*Free Republic, RedState, or whatever rightwing whinefest makes you feel the most self-satisfaction. *
otherwise known as Appalachian Hillbilly Country.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 12:43 PM | Link to this
Lyra -
first of all, the Dem retreat $500,000 covered the last 5 years, not this year, alone.
secondly, the Dems split the costs, with members paying half out of their own pockets
thirdly, the GOP didn’t even bother with the niceties - they went ahead and let the lobbyists buy them — oops, I mean, pay for their retreat.
as far as whether we would demand the head of a CEO who did this? of course not - most of us work in the corporate world (not in our basement), so we expect as much. however, if they had just taken major government funding because the company was teetering on the edge, I know I would not be as happy about it.
lastly, http:// www.sourcewatch.org/ index.php?title=Congressionaltravelregulations
those are the travel rules for congress critters - considering most of them work in their district office when they are home, why should they pick up the tab when it’s business travel?
By Sitter
February 10, 2009 12:58 PM | Link to this
“otherwise known as Appalachian Hillbilly Country.”
AKA the Real America where the Real Americans live.
By Jack
February 10, 2009 1:03 PM | Link to this
American Woman makes a whole lotta sense. Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Mara: They passed it. Looks like our famous stew will be a big seller.
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 1:07 PM | Link to this
TOJ—I think you are afraid of California based on data from people who do not live there. Remember it has a republican governor—and very strong republican base—very strong conservative ties that do not get much public attention, until they do not vote the way the press had thought. Like GA the population of CA not in urban areas, is very, very conservative. City leaders in CA are liberals just like constituents in city areas tend to be liberal in GA.
We always fear foreigners. Its part of being an American. Its stupid logic but America has hated: Middle Easterners, Germans, Irish, Swedes, Italians—Japanese, Russians, Chinese, Brazilians, Filipinos, anyone of Haitian and African decent, Cubans, Indians, Native Americans. We hate anyone until we have a war then we wrap them in flags and call them patriots. We hate Catholics, Jews, Agnostics, Muslims, Hindus and Orthodox…We have issues with the wrong kind of Protestants, we have issues with our issues…
I feel we cannot dump blame on any ONE party because BOTH parties got us into this mess equally. Pork is not pork when your state is receiving it…
Remember this whole sheebang of boom and bust is 30 years in the creation…Most people on this blog were just born…..it started with deregulation and escalated unchecked because of the prosperity number crunchers were able to pull from—-><—- and the public went wild enjoying themselves and wetting themselves with so much pleasurable spending. We have 3 generations who believe home ownership is an entitlement for being American….3 generations who dont have savings or the math skills to figure out a person who makes 30,000 cannot pay a mortgage on a 400,000 house, 2 cars & college loans. THOSE PEOPLE are screaming loudly now….my kind will get yet another shaft up our savings.
We have new leadership. While you might not like what his party represents—you must admit—this is one hell of a bad situation to inherit. It takes courage to stand and try to make policy in a disaster. Obama does have the courage to address the situation we are in—lets hope our pork-happy congress & house & governors dont take 800 billion and p** it away.
I wont see a dime of relief.
By Mara
February 10, 2009 1:13 PM | Link to this
Well, for better or worse the stimulus bill has passed the Senate, 61-37. Now comes the reconciling of horrendous House bill and the moderately alarming Senate package. I’m going to hold off on my criticisms until I see what actually emerges from committee.
Any comments of Geithner’s “Son of TARP” speech? I hope they’ve got more/better ideas than the tired platitudes and old bromides he trotted out…
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 1:13 PM | Link to this
American Woman I feel the legalization would benefit America more than legislation that keeps it illegal. First it would seriously dent profit in black markets—second it would be a crop rural districts could grow, the seeds could be used for fuels, the buds medicinal and the stalks as a much needed alternative to logging. It would also stop billions in police & court expenditures for prosecution of low-level crimes and save billions in incarceration fees.
By Monica
February 10, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this
if you are a government employee, a government vendor or on welfare, you are golden.
We just got news yesterday that my non-metro-Atlanta school system must cut over 200 teaching and staffing positions for next year, and for those of us who are lucky enough to have seniority, we probably will not receive local supplements (big cut in pay). Maybe we’re silver, but definitely not golden.
By Gale
February 10, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this
Ah yes, industrial hemp. A cash crop in Canada if I remember right. We need to stop letting people who haven’t a clue legislate. Oh, we’d probably have to furlough most of Congress.
By 2D
February 10, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
A couple minor points about any jobs estimates coming from this stimulus package.
First, as I mentioned before, many of the jobs are not sustainable for the long run. If/when the government stops spending, then the jobs go away. So, the Administration will be able to say “unemployment is down” at a given point in time, but more than likely the rate will rise again.
Second, I still do not believe we will be able to accurately identify the number of “saved” jobs. The number of factors that go into the decisions to hire, fire, layoff, etc. are simply too numerous. For the President to talk in those terms appears evasive to me.
Also…
It is troubling to me that the Presdient comes out and admits he’s not sure how well this bill work. If we’re not sure, then why are we doing it? Why is the government not taking an oath “to first do no harm”. We bailed out banks and passed TARP legislation that has done little more than increase the size of the debt.
Why not do what we encourage third world countries to do (I heard this on a morning show from a lady that worked for the IMF):
We are the most inventive and resilient people on the face of the Earth. Our country can survive this crisis without massive Federal intervention. For the Presdient to state otherwise, which he did last night, is a slap in the face of me and all of my hard working compatriots.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 1:34 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, nicely put at 1:07! With this mess of an economy, (just like the disastrous aftermath of Hurricane Katrina), there’s plenty of blame to go around — no need to isolate or omit anyone. Pointing fingers from one side at another doesn’t solve anything. Identifying where we went wrong (bank de-regulation, ignoring the engineers, etc) IS useful, but only if we apply the lessons going forward. Bravo with the “courage” statement. So true, so true! A good leader not only possesses the courage to stand up and do what needs to be done, but also inspires us to face our issues and see what we can do, instead of just pointing the finger elsewhere or putting our heads in the sand.
You may not get a dime of that relief directly, but we all do better when those with whom we share a community can work, feed their families, patronize local businesses, and eventually prosper. Better schools, infrastructures, and local economies are good for property values, which attract more commerce to the area, and the cycle continues. We hope.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 1:34 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, nicely put at 1:07! With this mess of an economy, (just like the disastrous aftermath of Hurricane Katrina), there’s plenty of blame to go around — no need to isolate or omit anyone. Pointing fingers from one side at another doesn’t solve anything. Identifying where we went wrong (bank de-regulation, ignoring the engineers, etc) IS useful, but only if we apply the lessons going forward. Bravo with the “courage” statement. So true, so true! A good leader not only possesses the courage to stand up and do what needs to be done, but also inspires us to face our issues and see what we can do, instead of just pointing the finger elsewhere or putting our heads in the sand.
You may not get a dime of that relief directly, but we all do better when those with whom we share a community can work, feed their families, patronize local businesses, and eventually prosper. Better schools, infrastructures, and local economies are good for property values, which attract more commerce to the area, and the cycle continues. We hope.
By 2D
February 10, 2009 1:54 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel…
Is this any worse that the crisis that Reagan inherited in 1981, or the recession Clinton inherited in 1993? I would say not.
The difference, which you alluded to, is that the people in 1980 did have an entitlement attitude. In 1993, it was starting to form. In 2008, it is fully manifest.
You mention leadership and courage…
There was a story from Geraldine Ferraro taken from the 1984 election. She’d just come from a factory, hit hard by the recession and nearly all of the workers indicated they’d be voting for Reagan. She asked why. They responded, because he made them proud to be an American. She said, she knew they had lost right then and there. Like him. Hate him. Agree with him. Disagree with him. Reagan was a leader.
This Presdient has already started the scare tactics. This President has already started to get frustrated when things aren’t going exactly as he wants. That’s not leadership and it certainly isn’t courageous. It doesn’t show great leadership or courage to make policy in the face of this disaster. That is his JOB. If he didn’t want to do it, then he shouldn’t have run for office.
Leadership is demonstrated by being able to make others feel good about a final decision, to get 120% from those around to implement the policy, to consider all ideas before making a decisions and ensure everyone feels and believes that were done.
By Mara
February 10, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this
Jack - “Looks like our famous stew will be a big seller.”
at least it’s hot…and filling :^)
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this
I think 2D, Frustrated, and Bruno are well able to uphold the conservative viewpoint without using the kind of venom you lace your comments with. If you’ve got something interesting or relevant to add, bring it on.
Hi Mara—Thanks for the shout. I’m going to step aside for now and let 2D do the heavy lifting this week. She (or he) is doing such a great job that I don’t have much to add.
By 2D
February 10, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this
I meant…
The difference, which you alluded to, is that the people in 1980 did NOT have an entitlement attitude. In 1993, it was starting to form. In 2008, it is fully manifest.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 2:10 PM | Link to this
“This Presdient has already started the scare tactics.” Why is there a familiar ring to that?
“This President has already started to get frustrated when things aren’t going exactly as he wants.” Um, and you don’t? Do you have any examples of inappropriate behavior to back this up, or are you a mind reader, sharing the President’s inner most feelings with us?
“That’s not leadership and it certainly isn’t courageous.” If you feel frustrated because you can’t fix a problem as quickly as you’d like, then you can’t be a leader and the quality of courage is automatically excluded from your character? Hmmm…
“It doesn’t show great leadership or courage to make policy in the face of this disaster. That is his JOB.” I’m sorry, are you applauding or berating his actions? It’s not clear from your statement.
“If he didn’t want to do it, then he shouldn’t have run for office.” Um…. WHAT? Just curious, what are your favorite AM radio shows?
BTW, I have a question about that McCain guy. He kept saying he knew how to get Bin Laden. “I can get Bin Laden!” he said over and over. Is he now refusing to share this information with our new President? Or was he just lying, then, and really had no idea?
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 2:26 PM | Link to this
American Woman—my gut feeling this unscripted stimulus it will become just another entitlement package because THERE IS NOTHING IN PLACE NOW to halt the flow of cash and save it for future jobs, nothing about saving some back to hold for a future re-payment. I see only the potential to become the next jobless welfare program—where only those who had regular jobs qualify— Small business is what runs America now that the mighty corporations are taking bailout money and laying off—small businesses will not get the loans they need. TOJ has quite a valid point about the difficulty getting a small business loan for a start up—yet banks got billions. What about the auto industry shutting dealerships?Up here we have a dealership that has been in business 40 years, closed. Not because of declining sales but lack of lending from banks. Banks can take bailout but wont help small business—can we really hope for tomorrow’s innovations when the banks in America won’t lend money for startups and our elected officials do allow banks to do such?
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
my gut feeling this unscripted stimulus it will become just another entitlement package because THERE IS NOTHING IN PLACE NOW to halt the flow of cash and save it for future jobs, nothing about saving some back to hold for a future re-payment. I see only the potential to become the next jobless welfare program—where only those who had regular jobs qualify— Small business is what runs America now that the mighty corporations are taking bailout money and laying off—small businesses will not get the loans they need. TOJ has quite a valid point about the difficulty getting a small business loan for a start up—yet banks got billions.
Lyrazel—I’m with you, and have been voicing my concerns re: the bailouts when they began under Bush. The scariest part to me is the fact that the money being spent isn’t collected tax moneys, the Feds are simply printing it as they go. Simple economics tells you that the dollar will become devaued as a result, leading to out-of-control inflation. As painful as things seem right now, they could definitely become worse.
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 2:39 PM | Link to this
Please remember 2D, way back when in 1981 there were still American manufacturers. Towels & sheets were still made in GA, jeans were still made in NC, TV sets were still produced, and now we have NAFTA, GNAFTA, OUTTHEASSOFYA and no industry but a whole lot of stores that sell only imported goods. We do not even make our own drugs—so what happens when some country says—sorry USA?
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 2:46 PM | Link to this
Um, and you don’t? Do you have any examples of inappropriate behavior to back this up, or are you a mind reader, sharing the President’s inner most feelings with us?
Like 2D, I came away with the same impression after listening to his “press conference” last night. I didn’t see the whole thing, but do distinctly remember him whining that the Republicans weren’t cooperating with him. Boo-hoo. Also, if Obama is going to win my respect, he’s going to have to forgo the temptation to make constant digs at the previous administration.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 2:50 PM | Link to this
The banks demanded the money, and they haven’t used it for its intended purpose: lending to businesses (employers) and consumers. It’s another boondoggle by the real “entitlement” crowd. They demanded de-regulation in the 80’s, being entitled to make a profit any way they darn well please. Then they demanded bailout (Silverado, ‘88, $1.3 BILLION: Neil Bush…) The problem is that the American people weren’t paying attention to what the bankers could do and get away with when nobody regulates them. They were too busy obsessing over the idea that Bill and Steve want to marry, or whether sex education should actually contain anything educational.
Those bankers that took the bailout money should either pony up and do what was intended, or spend a little time in GITMO! If it’s good enough for Arab teenagers, it’s good enough for the Lehman Brothers gang! (We can make you give the money back….)
Does anyone still believe that you should just TRUST the guys in the 3-piece suits to do the “right thing?” Geeeeeeez. The wrong things are regulated in this country — and that’s no accident!
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 2:51 PM | Link to this
Out of curiosity, AW, why do you believe that Obama is above being criticized?
By Gandalf, the White!
February 10, 2009 2:54 PM | Link to this
838 BILLION DOLLARS! That’s a lot of PORK!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 10, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this
WWRRD? He would lower taxes, use INCENTIVES to help small business create jobs, and scare the heck out of the rest of the world. What is Barry doing? He is going to raise taxes, and use spending to ruin the economy further. Dum BASSES, everyone who voted for Barry is a DUM BASS! Harry Reed and Nancy Pelosi aren’t even Americans, the are dum basses!
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this
GA politicians sure likes them bbq pork suppers, Gandalf.
(Is off to make gravy.)
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 3:06 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I don’t believe ANYONE is above being criticized. I was just trying to clarify 2D’s criticisms. Are we to criticize the new President for TRYING to fix the disaster he inherited? Or for not trying hard enough? And if so, what can WE, the American citizens do, to attempt to stave off the collapse of our economy, which would indeed affect us all in some way or another? Is it acceptable to ask for bi-partisan cooperation in crafting solutions, or is he just being a weenie for not shutting them out? (Maybe if he threw up his hands and went on vacation for a couple weeks, huh?) Just seeking clarificationm that’s all.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 3:09 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel
TOJ—I think you are afraid of California based …
Yes they have a Republican governor but he is the most liberal major Republican in the country. I know that up on the high desert there are a lot of conservatives, But you are right, California is so urban that the conservatives just can’t win elections. During Reagan’s years, that was not the case.
I don’t have issues with anyone. As most on here know, I love women from other countries. Yes, we have feared foreigners but this is different. People from Japan can’t wade into Texas. There are millions and millions and millions of them. They are draining our western states and once they become citizens, they are almost always voting for one party. Because of this, the once very conservative west is now the strong section of the country for the democrats.
I feel we cannot dump blame on any ONE party because BOTH parties got us into this mess equally. Pork is not pork when your state is receiving it…
Pork didn’t get us into this. When the FDIC and other government institutions were forced to lower their standards by people like Barney Frank, banks started loaning money to anyone. And why not? The bad loans were guaranteed by the Fed. I blame the Republicans for being afraid of the media. That made them afraid to stand up to people like Barnie Frank. There are also lots of dynamics in the construction industry that evolved from that bad loan mess.
Remember this whole sheebang of boom and bust is 30 years in the creation…Most people on this blog were just born….. or the math skills to figure out a person who makes 30,000 cannot pay a mortgage on a 400,000 house, 2 cars & college loans. THOSE PEOPLE are screaming loudly now….my kind will get yet another shaft up our savings.
I understand what you are saying but the real problem is that those people have always wanted money. It wasn’t until the regs were relaxed that they got that money. The housing glut made their high interest loans on their houses not cover the value of the house, so people didn’t mind letting their homes go into foreclosure.
We have new leadership. While you might not like what his party represents—you must admit—this is one hell of a bad situation to inherit.
The question is, who did he inherit it from? The president doesn’t make laws or enact legislation. Congress does that. What happened to Congress in 2006, while unemployment was 4% and the economy was roaring? The Democrats took over. It wasn’t a large majority, but it was enough. What specifically did they do? They were in charge. They promised if we would flip Congress gas prices would come down and we would be out of Iraq in no time. Well gas prices finally crashed after being higher than anytime in history and we are still in Iraq, i.e. their entire mantra for getting elected in 2006 was a complete and total lie.
Hell, how many times have you heard any Democratic leader even referring to those two years? Obama is constantly referring to “the past eight years” when he was part of the problem for the last two years. It is a basic dishonesty that is shored up by a very biased media.
It takes courage to stand and try to make policy in a disaster. Obama does have the courage to address the situation we are in—lets hope our pork-happy congress & house & governors dont take 800 billion and p it away.**
Nah. It’s his job. It’s only courage if someone steps up. He was elected to do it. it is hardly courageous to do one’s job. And I think he has been a complete disaster since day one. The first thing he does is close Gitmo? And then he drops the charges against the guy who blew up the Cole, killing 17 American Sailors. But don’t worry, we are going to keep him locked up. What? No we have no charges against him, but we are going to keep him locked up?
I think Obama is a splendid politician. The only problem is that I think politicians are the scum of the earth and would rather lie than tell the truth. I heard Rev. Wright speak two years ago. I didn’t even know who he was. His speech was so bigoted against white people that Black people were getting up and leaving the auditorium. But strangely enough, Obama claim to not know that he was a racist jerk. I and most of the people at Morehouse knew he was a racist jerk in the first five minute of his presentation.
So Obama is either an idiot, or does not care at all of telling a complete and obvious lie in order to cover his own butt. I know that people claim that Wright doesn’t matter, but Obama’s lying does matter. And I think that Wright matters. If McCain would have been as close to a KKK Grand Dragon as Obama was to Wright, what would have been the reaction by the press?
And BTW, most people will tell you that FOX and/or Sean Hannity broke the Wright story. It was broken when a reporter from ABC News ordered a DVD set from Wright’s church. So why did a very biased ABC go after a democrat? ABC was Hillary’s friend and until Obama won the nomination they were Obama’s enemy.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 3:17 PM | Link to this
Lyra -
“we have issues with our issues…”
that has to be the funniest - and truest - thing I’ve read in a long time.
2D -
“many of the jobs are not sustainable for the long run. If/when the government stops spending, then the jobs go away. So, the Administration will be able to say “unemployment is down” at a given point in time, but more than likely the rate will rise again”
no one expects these projects to be funded at the federal level ad infinitum.
right now, we are going through what’s known as the Paradox of Thrift - where people are afraid of losing their jobs, so they stop spending, which, in turn has a negative impact on businesses, which then lay off staff, which makes people more afraid of losing their jobs.
(like a circle in a circle, like a wheel in a wheel …)
the stimulus package is aimed at interrupting the PofT cycle. basically, here’s the concept - once state projects are funded and people are hired, they will start spending (even if its just spending a little more on the basics - maybe hitting Applebees once a week) - that will, in turn, slowly stop the drip-drip-drip of rising unemployment - which will, in turn, return spending to its regular programming and put unemployment back on a downward trend.
“entitlement mentality” - could you define your terms?? I just want to know what YOU mean when you say that (it could be entirely different than what I mean when I say it)
“Second, I still do not believe we will be able to accurately identify the number of “saved” jobs. The number of factors that go into the decisions to hire, fire, layoff, etc. are simply too numerous. For the President to talk in those terms appears evasive to me.”
lastly, as I said, public companies announce plans to lay people off, so there’s that initial way to track - plus, as someone mentioned above, states are starting to announce layoffs in government work - VERY easy to track. lastly, as I said before, this is not the first recession we have been through. the statisticians at the DofL know what they’re tracking - they know the trends - they know what sectors get hit the hardest and which are the first to recover.
do you have any idea how many sub-indices there are in the non-farm payroll numbers? how many sub-indices support the overall unemployment rate? the DofL looks at trends in pretty minute detail. will they be 100% accurate? of course not - but I think they’re going to be far more accurate than you give them credit for.
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 3:30 PM | Link to this
isn’t because 20% of the homeowners were sub-prime borrowers. It isn’t the granite countertops. It isn’t the “must-have-new-car” syndrome. The problem is that the banks passed on the risk of all these borrowers to investors via vehicles like derivatives - unmonitored, unregulated derivatives. No one knew (and they still don’t know) exactly how much exposure is out there and who owns it. That’s why the banks haven’t been lending to each other. That’s why the gov’t had to step in and rescue AIG as well as all the banks - and that’s why the Fed is talking about finding a way to deal with all these toxic assets.
USinUK—I’m still trying to follow your logic here, but am having great difficulty. The root cause of our current financial crisis is the fact that millions and millions of people borrowed money that they didn’t pay back. Period. Certainly, the overlay of the financial derivatives has greatly complicated the situation, but the bottom line is that there wouldn’t be a financial crisis in the first place if all the borrowers had paid their loans back on time.
And though many people like Sunshine still place the blame for the irresponsible borrowing squarely on the shoulders of the lenders themselves, I don’t see it that way. Such a worldview assumes that consumers are like children who can’t be held accountable for their actions. The bottom line for me, once again, is caveat emptor—Buyer Beware.
Ultimately, I have to agree with Lyrazel. For the past many years, I’ve noticed people purchasing very expensive cars and homes without the income to back it all up. The standard of living here in the US has gone through the roof in my lifetime. As a kid, my family lived in a very small house with one bathroom for 7 people. We had one car and a black-and-white TV set, and rarely took vacations. And we were ok with our situation.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 3:31 PM | Link to this
Brunoooooooooooooooooooo
welcome back!
“but do distinctly remember him whining that the Republicans weren’t cooperating with him. Boo-hoo.”
I think you may have missed something there - he wasn’t whining that the GOP wasn’t cooperating with him, he was addressing the GOP’s whinging that THEY weren’t included in the process:
You know, when I made a series of overtures to the Republicans — going over to meet with both Republican caucuses; you know, putting three Republicans in my Cabinet, something that is unprecedented; making sure that they were invited here to the White House to talk about the economic recovery plan — all those were not designed simply to get some short-term votes. They were designed to try to build up some trust over time. And I think that as I continue to make these overtures, over time hopefully that will be reciprocated. … That doesn’t negate the continuing efforts that I’m going to make to listen and engage with my Republican colleagues, and hopefully the tone that I’ve taken, which has been consistently civil and respectful, will pay some dividends over the long term. There are going to be areas where we disagree, and there are going to be areas where we agree.
is that whining?? I really don’t think so - he said he wants to change the tone and I think that’s what he’s trying to do.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 3:34 PM | Link to this
Gale
Industrial hemp. Do you know the history of that? Up until WWII, American farmers were required to grow it to support any war effort.
I’m sure you have read The Emperor Wears No Clothes. Great book about hemp. I used to own a couple of copies but they have wondered off.
I heard something interesting on Dirty Jobs about Hemp. Burlap is becoming more and more rare, even though it is a perfect material for so many uses, and it rots instead of filling up land fills. Why is it disappearing? It is made from hemp.
My family grows tobacco in East Tennessee. All these super conservative farmers want to grow hemp because tobacco is so nasty and expensive to cultivate. Hemp is a weed that actually replenishes the soil if you leave some stalks in the field.
Dupont Chemicals is why hemp is illegal. When they invented Rayon and Nylon, both materials made better rope than cotton rope but couldn’t begin to compete with hemp rope. So how did they compete? They pushed the congress to make Pot illegal. Joe Kennedy was also a huge force in keeping hemp down. With his business of importing liquor, that is no surprise.
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 3:44 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I don’t believe ANYONE is above being criticized. I was just trying to clarify 2D’s criticisms. Are we to criticize the new President for TRYING to fix the disaster he inherited? Or for not trying hard enough?
AW—I will accept your explanation, but it’s somewhat hard to swallow in light of all of the vicious, personal attacks that you and your liberal cohorts have launched against Bush/Republicans/conservatives here on the blog the past few years. So now that YOUR guy is in charge, everyone is supposed to play nice all of a sudden??
If you recall, I’ve made similar pleas to the libs here to give Bush the benefit of the doubt that he was sincere in trying to address the enormous challenges he faced. And each time, I was derided.
Like most conservatives, I am hoping for the best under Obama, but please spare me the lectures on being open-minded and fair with him.
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 3:45 PM | Link to this
TOJ, I have spent many years listening to uppity men of religion rage against Middle Easterners, Germans, Irish, Swedes, Italians—Japanese, Russians, Chinese, Brazilians, Gays, Filipinos, anyone of Haitian and African decent, Cubans, Indians, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, Agnostics, Muslims, Hindus and Orthodox…the wrong kind of Protestants, So when anyone who declares himself/herself a minister, a man of god, whosever god….I no longer listen. I don’t care what they say in their church. I defend their right to say it. I defend their right to assemble —I won’t be listening.
A politician is as honest as a used car salesman only a used car salesman knows its a lemon he’s selling.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 3:55 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I gave you no lecture, I only answered your question. I can see that was a mistake. So sorry. Please go elsewhere for your “don’t lecture me!” needs.
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 3:57 PM | Link to this
“Politicians spend 75% of their time in office fundraising for their next campaign”, Nancy Pelosi
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 4:00 PM | Link to this
is that whining?? I really don’t think so - he said he wants to change the tone and I think that’s what he’s trying to do.
USinUK—I don’t have a copy of the press conference handy, but the part I remember was Obama criticizing the Republicans for having the audacity to bring up concerns about fiscal responsibility regarding the bailouts. In essence, Obama stated that the Republicans had no moral/ethical basis to raise such concerns due to the “past eight years”. As I said earlier, if Obama truly wants to lead in a positive way, he needs to quit harping about the past. I think the Republican concerns about the long-term effects of this massive spending bill are quite valid, and can’t be swept under the rug due to the “past eight years”.
One quote I remember YOU making regarding Bush was something like this “We all knew that Bush was an idiot going into office, but hoped that he would surround himself with bright people, which he didn’t do”. And now you’re asking everyone to give Obama the benefit of the doubt?? Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e??
By Gale
February 10, 2009 4:05 PM | Link to this
TOJ, interesting points about hemp.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 4:08 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“The root cause of our current financial crisis is the fact that millions and millions of people borrowed money that they didn’t pay back. Period. Certainly, the overlay of the financial derivatives has greatly complicated the situation, but the bottom line is that there wouldn’t be a financial crisis in the first place if all the borrowers had paid their loans back on time.”
sorry, my darlin, but you’re just flat-out wrong on this one. the overlay of financial derivative didn’t “complicate” the situation - the financial derivatives took what was a small bonfire and put a full-loaded fuel tanker on top of it, blowing up 5 city blocks and staring a forest fire that burned down thousands of acres.
warning - long response ahead … grab a cup of tea and make yourself comfy …
a comparison: the Kentucky Derby - there’s a horse in the race running at 50-1. 1 horse out of 20 (subprime mortgages at their peak were only 20% of the market). The horse comes in dead last. The majority of people in the stadium happened to place a bet on that horse — some of them for ludicrous amounts of money — and they all lost the lot. while the horse was the root of the problem, the millions of $$$ that were lost that day were the results of the bets.
Because that’s all structured credit and derivatives are - placing bets on whether people will default or not. So, take the Derby analogy and multiply it by a factor of millions. Some investors (like hedge funds) put bets on the riskier tranches, hoping to get a big return when the mortgage holders did NOT default. However, a lot of investors put money on what they thought were “safe” tranches. Unfortunately, too many of the default-level derivatives were “insured”, then wrapped with an investment-grade (BBB- or better) rating, which meant people were buying the equivalent of a 1988 Yugo that had a BMW emblem on the hood. The insurers weren’t able to cover all the debt they wrote policies for and people lost money. Billions of dollars of money. And not only in the US, but globally.
Finally, if all this was kept in some kind of clearinghouse like they have for swap derivatives, that would have alleviated a major part of what is now the ongoing problem - the uncertainty of who holds what. Unfortunately, there is no clearinghouse, no single recordkeeper for most of the derivatives at the heart of the mortgage meltdown. So, what’s happened is that banks have stopped lending to each other because no one knows which of their bretheren have huge exposures to what is now known as “toxic debt”. when they don’t loan to each other, then liquidity dries up for everyone else - major corporations, small businesses, individuals.
okay. so. individuals.
so, after years of a negative savings rate, people are suddenly caught with their pants down, thousands of dollars in debt, living in a house that is now worth less than what they borrowed, unable to cope with a downturn. that’s not the cause, that’s the effect.
lastly, if you’ve never seen this, it’s a blindingly funny way to understand subprime, derivatives and their roles in the meltdown http:// www.scribd.com/d oc/2190705/ CDO-Powerpoint-SubPrime-Primer
By Bruno
February 10, 2009 4:11 PM | Link to this
Lyra - “we have issues with our issues… ”that has to be the funniest - and truest - thing I’ve read in a long time.
You might appreciate a Merl Saunders song, then, USinUK, entitled “My Problems Got Problems”. It’s hilarious.
Again, to reassure you, I am hoping for the best with Obama, although I already disagree strongly with the direction that he is leading us. I will try to have more class in criticizing him than all of you showed toward Bush. The AJC’s Mike Luckovich used to get his rocks off by drawing charactures of Bush with huge ears and a tiny head. Since Obama’s ears are proportionally much larger than Bush’s, I will be curious to see how he portrays Obama.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“And now you’re asking everyone to give Obama the benefit of the doubt?? Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e??”
what are you talking about?
first of all, who thinks that Obama is the idiot that Bush was??
secondly, I’m not seeing the leap you’re making from Bush being an idiot and Obama supposedly whining???
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 4:17 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
is THIS what you’re talking about:
“And let me give you a prime example — when it comes to how we approach the issue of fiscal responsibility. Again, it’s a little hard for me to take criticism from folks about this recovery package after they presided over a doubling of the national debt. I’m not sure they have a lot of credibility when it comes to fiscal responsibility.
Having said that, I think there are a lot of Republicans who are sincere in recognizing that unless we deal with entitlements in a serious way, the problems we have with this year’s deficit and next year’s deficit pale in comparison to what we’re going to be seeing 10 or 15 years or 20 years down the road.”
I don’t believe he said anything that a few of us haven’t said on this blog over the past 48 hours. And while that may be called tweaking, I sure as heck wouldn’t call it whining.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 10, 2009 4:20 PM | Link to this
Pork Chops, Barbaqued pork, pork roast, Honey baked ham, bacon, canadian bacon etc.etc.etc. …… and that’s what Barry done know bout pork barrel spending!
By Lyrazel
February 10, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this
Gandalf—for shame! CANADIAN BACON? BUY AMERICAN!!!
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 4:35 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“The AJC’s Mike Luckovich used to get his rocks off by drawing charactures of Bush with huge ears and a tiny head. Since Obama’s ears are proportionally much larger than Bush’s, I will be curious to see how he portrays Obama”
so far, they seem to waver between Spock and satellite dishes: http:// projects.ajc.com/gallery/ view/opinion/luckovichfeb09/4.html
the guy with the WaPo used to draw Bush with bunny ears … now he draws Obama with Shrek ears.
By USinUK
February 10, 2009 4:37 PM | Link to this
Lyra and GtG —
Gandalf—for shame! CANADIAN BACON? BUY AMERICAN!!!
for SHAME to both of you!!! I don’t know what it is, but BACON, it ain’t!!!
By 2D
February 10, 2009 4:41 PM | Link to this
AW…
I try not to pick out individual lines and respond to individuals and I would ask that others do the same to mine. My posts are typically not individual bullet points unless noted.
You’ve ripped an entire paragraph apart and disputed/responded to lines individually, when collectively, I merely stated that this President has not shown what I consider to be effective leadership, particularly during the last “press conference”. Nothing more. Nothing less.
By The Other Jack
February 10, 2009 4:50 PM | Link to this
Larazel
Yep and I’m sure if you hung around any Middle Easterners, Germans, Irish, Swedes, Italians—Japanese, Russians, Chinese, Brazilians, Gays, Filipinos, anyone of Haitian and African decent, Cubans, Indians, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, Agnostics, Muslims, Hindus and Orthodox… you would hear some pretty disparaging remarks about Americans. We didn’t invent prejudice.
gale
if you haven’t read The Emperor Wears No Clothes, please pick it up.
http:// www .amazon .com /Emperor-Wears-Clothes-Authoritative-Historical/dp/1878125028
By 2D
February 10, 2009 5:00 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
If the jobs created are not sustainable, then any employment recovery will be false. The same thing happened during FDR’s New Deal programs. Unemployement would rise to 20%, dip to 10-12% right before an election, then when the government stopped spending would balloon right back up to 18-20%. In fact, the unemployment rate in 1939 was still in the mid teens, nearly identicial to when it was when FDR took over.
If the employement recovery cannot be sustained, then how can the economic recovery be sustained. Answer… It can’t.
Our economy needs to return to it’s position of being an exporter of goods. Our trade deficit is ridiculous and MUST change. That may not mean returning the towel industry to GA like Lyrazel popinted out earlier, but we as a country need to identify what those items are and make it happen.
One way is to incent those manufacturers to return to the USA. Reduce corporate taxes, increase import taxes on items imported into the US regardless of the company, whatever it takes.
Another is to produce more energy at home to reduce dependence on imported oil. That will not only reduce the trade deficit, but also make our country safer, relieve farmlands (see below) and save $$$ for the consumer.
Another is to utilize our vast food resources. Why are we importing ANY food from other parts of the world. We can feed the world all on our own, yet we import food from China. W-T-F! Stop wasting our farmland on ethanol and start making bread.
these are the types of things the government should be getting involved with. These are the items that should be in a “stimulus” bill and guess what… It wouldn’t cost nearly as much $$$ and would create a more stable, sustainable economy…
As for the “entitlement mentality”… I meant to build upon Lyrazel’s initial post that now people believe they are entitled to own a home. I would take that one step further. They believe they are entitled to a certain standard of living. Guess what. They aren’t. I’m not. Noone is. A job? Nope. Health care? Nope.
What I am entitled to is the freedom to make choices and build the life, home, family, wealth that I choose to both strive for and that my abilities and work ethic will afford. Nothing more. Nothing less.
By American Woman
February 10, 2009 6:05 PM | Link to this
It’s true that infrastructure projects are not infinite. That doesn’t mean they’re not worthwhile! They’ll still get money flowing again. A crumbling infrastructure benefits no one, and personally, I WANT to believe the bridge will hold when I drive over it!
How about putting people to work on that while the next phase of a prosperous America is being put into place: We must start producing stuff HERE again. Yes, let’s fix the infrastructure while new business plans are being drawn up, funded, and implemented in the private sector by people who actually CARE about America, not just their own off-shore bank accounts. And more importantly, what can YOU do to help?
There are shuttered factories and industrial complexes all over America. What will people want to buy going forward? Energy-efficient, planet friendly products. Even better if we can build energy-creating products like solar panels, etc. The other issue to be solved: what to do with our waste? How can we turn waste into energy and products and SELL it? Good ol’ American ingenuity! Is there anything we can’t do? (All those “smart” guys on Wall Street wanted to fabricate money instead of using their brains for something useful. Greedy b******* belong in GITMO, IMO.)
Put communities back to work, generate tax revenue, improve schools, roads, and water systems, increase property values, and so on. (WHY AREN’T THE GOOBER-HEADS UNDER THE GOLD DOME ADDRESSING THESE IMPORTANT ISSUES?) Why are there shuttered factories? Why wasn’t anyone inspecting our peanut processing plants and sugar refineries before they had to close their doors? (If you think OSHA is too intrusive, have that convo in Savannah with the burnt-up sugar workers who lost their skin….) Our legislators are too busy with “moral issues” and whipping up campaign donations from anti-gay, anti-education, anti-beer-on-Sunday groups. Sheesh.
Good planning makes for good business. Legalizing and promoting Industrial Hemp is just one thing that could help turn it around for us, but it won’t happen until WE DEMAND that our government start acting responsibly and looking at long term solutions, not just election-day promises. I’ve already written to my so-called “representatives.” Have y’all?
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 8:11 AM | Link to this
AW -
“WHY AREN’T THE GOOBER-HEADS UNDER THE GOLD DOME ADDRESSING THESE IMPORTANT ISSUES”
um. excuse me, missy, but I believe Goober-Heads is a highly technical term. are you licensed to use it? (raising one eyebrow)
;-)
good Wednesday morning!!
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 8:28 AM | Link to this
Brunoooooooooooooooooo -
This morning I was still trying to think about a way to show you how pernicious the derivatives problem was so that I could show you in concrete terms why IT - not household debt - led to the pickle barrel in which we find ourselves.
Then it came to me: AIG and Bear Stearns. AIG, the largest insurer in the US was nearly bankrupted in September because of derivatives, causing the government to step in and bail them out lest the financial sector completely melt down (please refer to the testimony Mara cited yesterday):
AIG’s cash squeeze is driven in large part by losses in a unit separate from its traditional insurance businesses. That financial-products unit, which has been a part of AIG for years, sold the credit-default swap contracts designed to protect investors against default in an array of assets, including subprime mortgages.
But as the housing market has crumbled, the value of those contracts has dropped sharply, driving $18 billion in losses over the past three quarters and forcing AIG to put up billions of dollars in collateral. AIG raised $20 billion earlier this year. But the ongoing demands are straining the holding company’s resources.
http:// online.wsj.com/ article/SB122156561931242905.html
Here’s the interesting thing … 6 months before the September filing, the first signs started to emerge:
In a Feb. 11 filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, AIG revised earlier reports and disclosed that it now estimates that its unrealized losses on a credit default swap portfolio within AIG Financial Products (AIGFP) would be just shy of $4.8 billion through November, more than triple its previous disclosure of $1.15 billion.
The company has not yet determined its losses on the portfolio in December. Its fourth quarter earnings report is expected later this month.
And, lest you forget, Bear Stearns collapsed under the weight of its derivatives exposure:
To understand why it has torn up the rule book, take a look at the latest Security and Exchange Commission filing by Bear Stearns. It contains a short table listing the broker’s holding of derivatives contracts as of November 30 2007.
Bear Stearns had total positions of $13.4 trillion. This is greater than the US national income, or equal to a quarter of world GDP - at least in “notional” terms. The contracts were described as “swaps”, “swaptions”, “caps”, “collars” and “floors”. This heady edifice of new-fangled instruments was built on an asset base of $80bn at best.
On the other side of these contracts are banks, brokers, and hedge funds, linked in destiny by a nexus of interlocking claims. This is counterparty spaghetti. To make matters worse, Lehman Brothers, UBS, and Citigroup were all wobbling on the back foot as the hurricane hit.
http:// www.telegraph.co.uk/ finance/newsbysector/ banksandfinance/2786816/Fed’s-rescue-halted-a-derivatives-Chernobyl.html
I understand that we all look around us and see people behaving irresponsibly and think AHA! This is the problem - if we all had lived within our means and had more savings, this never would have happened.
Unfortunately, the facts just don’t bear that out - households would be better positioned to ride out the storm, yes, definitely. However, the sheer magnitude of the market meltdown was brought about because of the unregulated, unmonitored derivatives and the people who were oblivious to the risk and only looked for the short-term rewards.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 8:33 AM | Link to this
First: The only provision in the spending bill that would have helped the middle class is being pulled by the dims. it would give up to a $!5,000 (or 10%) tax break to a home buyer. I thought that Washington was actually thinking about the middle class there for a minute. So much for that.
I have been reading one of my trade magazines about a film that is being produced by the BBC. It centers on the treatment of Seniors in the English Socialized Medical Establishment, the Canadian Socialized Medical Establishment and the aspirations of the new leadership in the US.
The article was primarily about the new camera technology they are using, but the subject matter caught my attention. England and Canada both have had to cut back on the idea of curing elderly patients and move more along the line of making them comfortable until they die and become no more drain on an already bankrupt system. There is no Cancer Treatment Centers of America in GB or Canada. . If you are over 65 and diagnosed with cancer in England or Canada the chances of survival are pretty bad. That much I learned in the trade magazine. Then I started looking stuff up.
Tom Dascille, whose antics in the Senate earned him the distinction of being the only party leader to be sent home since 1950, and who almost was made the Secretary of Health and Human Services has written a book about his views on government sponsored heath care. In that book he states that seniors should sacrifice advancements in care so that resources can be spent primarily on the young. He also says that those who have received what he terms “hopeless diagnoses” should just accept it. Americans should “forego experimental treatment” and adopt a more European attitude of acceptance.
One of the new provisions in the spending bill is to establish a “National Coordinator of Health Information Technology.” The Coordinator would enact cost cutting guidelines that doctors would be bound to follow or face penalties determined by guess who? The Secretary of Health and Human Services.
Democrats use the semantics of “ProChoice” to promote the killing of 32 million Americans since the establishment of Roe v Wade. Am I the only one that can see the inaction of the “Dying with Dignity Act”. After all, the democrats could help everyone avoid getting old and feeble. Just cut health care off after a specific age. Will there be future blog arguments about referring to the elderly as “Past Humans”? If someone dares to call them people, would the supporters of this policy would argue that they will not discuss the issue until the poster stops calling old folks=humans?
I would think that this is a crazy idea if we weren’t already half way there.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 8:58 AM | Link to this
G’morning 2D!!
Entitlement. Good gravy are you and I (mostly) in agreement on this. I jokingly refer to it as the Paris Hilton/Pimp my Ride/Cribs Syndrome where people see all this lavish spending on clothes, stupidly kitted-out cars and waaaayyyyy over-the-top houses and want to live like that, too.
(I think the only thing we differ on is health care - I think basic health care should be available to everyone - it’s for the public good, stopping disease and promoting a healthier society)
Now, as for your reference to the Depression, I’m sorry to tell you, but other than a brief recession in 1937, unemployment fell steadily - it didn’t fluctuate as you say it did.
If you look at the graph which measures non-farm and non-WPA employment, it rose fairly steadily from 1933 onward (and even the blip in 1937 wasn’t an extreme blip, but a small one)
http:// en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/File:USEmploymentGraph-1920to1940.svg
Last word about the Depression — when FDR took office in 1933, unemployment was at 25%, not the “mid-teens” … by the time we went to war in 1941, unemployment had dropped to 9.something%.
This stimulus plan - like all stimulus plans - is meant to act as a defibrillator for the economy, not a pacemaker. Programs shouldn’t be permanent - they should boost employment over the next 12-24 months, which should be enough to spur state government and private companies to stand on their own 2 feet again, increasing hiring.
“Stop wasting our farmland on ethanol and start making bread.”
wow. so you want the government to start directing farmers what to grow and what to do with it???
I understand and agree with your premise, but shouldn’t Farmers across the country have the right to decide what they want to grow and who they want to sell it to? or do you want to reintroduce protectionism?
As far as reducing the reliance on foreign fuel, I’ll give you a HUGE AMEN to that!!
And, regarding manufacturing - this has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes. This has to do with the fact that manufacturers can get cheaper labor in S. America and Asia (and I’m not talking $5-or-$6 cheaper, I’m talking cost of pennies a day). So, if you want to get manufacturing back to the US, you’re going to need to convince companies that they need to pay their employees a living wage.
anyhoo. them’s my responses to last night’s post.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 9:00 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
Both you and Bruno are correct. The derivatives issue caused the current credit crisis. But what precipitated the derivatives issue? You may be able to explain how bond ratings, the way derivatives are bundled, the lack of oversight, etc. all contributed to the situation. And they did. But…
How can you not acknowledge the fact that if all of the folks who signed up for the mortgages packaged in those deivatives had continued to make their payments, this would either have not ever happened, or at the very least would not be as extensive.
Perhaps this is too simple of an analagy, but I liken it to an avid beach person going to the dermatologist.
When that beach person goes in for regular checkups, the doctor will probably find and diagnose the skin cancer at an early stage and be able to treat. If they don’t go to the doctor on a regular basis, the skin cancer may cause serious problems. However, if the person had been more careful taking care of their skin (i.e. sunscreen, limiting their time in the sun, drinking lots of water, not drinking/smoking) there is strong possibility the skin cancer would have never shown up. Treating the symptom (manage the cancer). Treating the problem (fix life style).
You speak of clearinghouses and oversight on the investment portion of this issue. That is treating the symptom of cancerous and destructive mortgages. Treating the underlying problem would be to ensure that inividuals getting home loans are getting ones that can be repaid.
By Frustrated
February 11, 2009 9:04 AM | Link to this
Good Morn everyone!
Off topic, did anyone watch dateline last night? The interview with the mother of the octuplets…..
Just wondering what the opinions are on the matter.
I feel sorry for the children.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:17 AM | Link to this
UsinUK
On January 1, 1938 the census said that 1 out of every five Americans were out of work. nearly eight million out of the US population of 40 million. That’s 20%
You stated that “by the time that we went to war”, which of course is completely misleading. We started cranking up the war effort long before we actually declared war on Dec. 8, 1941. it didn’t take but two years of war supply building to recover our economy. Of course that was when wars actually helped the economy. Unlike now where only wars started by Democrats help the economy. (Siting Viet Nam which kept the US economy moving for almost 12 years) Of course, even though we spent much more money in Iraq, that money must have gone to another planet.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:23 AM | Link to this
USinUk
And, regarding manufacturing - this has nothing whatsoever to do with taxes. This has to do with the fact that manufacturers can get cheaper labor in S. America and Asia (and I’m not talking $5-or-$6 cheaper, I’m talking cost of pennies a day). So, if you want to get manufacturing back to the US, you’re going to need to convince companies that they need to pay their employees a living wage.
What are the wages in Ireland? They are taking US Company after US company because of their offer of extremely low taxes. My accountant is looking into it right now for my new internet company. I’m pretty sure that those workers don’t make pennies a day.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 9:24 AM | Link to this
Hi 2D -
“How can you not acknowledge the fact that if all of the folks who signed up for the mortgages packaged in those deivatives had continued to make their payments, this would either have not ever happened, or at the very least would not be as extensive.”
The skin cancer analogy is an interesting one - and I’ve never disagreed that there was a lot of idiocy regarding a number of things: 1) some of the people who qualified, 2) the ludicrous mortgage “products” available (I mean, OMFG - 80/20, 0% down, etc) that did nothing but screw people to the wall when we were in a rising rate environment, and 3) the utter lack of an honest-to-god background checks (banks accepted website “verification” of the applicant’s income rather than tax returns or paychecks??? are you effing kidding me???)
however, WHY did we have all that??? I know there are people on this board (I won’t name names) that luuuuuuuuuuuuuv to lay all the blame for this on Barney Frank (no, really - he MADE banks loan to risky people!). However, the problem again goes back to derivatives — because banks were able to sell off the risk of these mortgages via derivative products, they began to not care about who they lent to. All they cared about were returns - they received income from the securities, they received income from the mortgage, they were big winners.
until they weren’t.
all that to say, had there been better oversight of these vehicles (especially the underlying assets) - then banks wouldn’t have been able to pass along such crappy mortgages … and if they couldn’t pass them on, they sure as heck wouldn’t have lent the money in the first place.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 9:26 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
Took a few moments to review your numbers. Based on various sources, paticularly taking the average unemployment rates, in 1932 I see the number to be right around 23%.
In 1938, before WWII started, I see the number to be right around 19%.
Sorry, but in retrospect, I do not see a 4% drop in the unemployment rate as a worthwhile return for the massive investment FDR and his administration made.
Also…
I did not say that the unemployment rate oscillated drastically and frantically. In fact, I indicated that the rate went down several points by the first election and then spiked again, which it did, prompting more government intervention and spending. That is exactly what I suspect will happen with this stimulus bill. People will go back to work, the rate will drop, the economy will get a little better and then the administration will say… “See it worked, let’s keep doing it…” and merely dig us an even bigger hole.
Any gains made after that I cannot directly attribute to New Deal policies. A war had started. We were not officially in, but to think our industrial might was not at all influenced by the war raging all around us would be preposterous.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:27 AM | Link to this
Frustrated
I don’t see the problem. She IS the Great Society. Isn’t this what the democrats wanted? She is just another welfare Mom . She has just figured out how to produce a bunch of dependents at a time.
i thought she was attractive until my girlfriend said that she looked like Al Frankin.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 9:29 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
please refer to the recession I pointed out earlier - unemployment declined steadily from 1933 onward EXCEPT for the recession which went into 1938, causing unemployment to rise. Again, unemployment continued to fall in 1939-1941
check out the chart I linked to in the post to 2D
“Of course, even though we spent much more money in Iraq, that money must have gone to another planet”
not another planet - just another country.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:33 AM | Link to this
2D
What USinUK is saying is that we should have had protections against people like Barnie Frank. You would think that the voting booth would be enough, but with democrats we need many levels of protection.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 9:34 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“are taking US Company after US company because of their offer of extremely low taxes”
hooray!!! you brought up Ireland …
what’s the difference between Ireland and Iceland??
One letter and 6 months.
oh, yeah - that low-tax environment has really helped them.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 9:35 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
A couple of other random points…
You mentioned everyone should have basic health care. What exactly is that? The reason I ask is this… Even as a strong Conservative, I could get behind some sort of “basic” health care program because as you pointed out, it is for the public good.
Of course I do not want the government telling farmers what to produce and where to sell it. I also do not want the government intervening with ridiculous subsidies for producing ethanol (like the current President touted in Iowa).
I do not want to return to “Protenctionism” but I do believe that the government can do things to provide a better climate for business here in the US. For example… We have much stricter EPA guidelines than many places around the world. Those hamper our industries by raising costs. Imports from those places could be taxed to compensate for the additional enivornment costs. That would better balance the playing field. We could do the same for imports based on worker treatment, what types of import taxes are placed on our goods etc. Lower corporate taxes would only be a small piece of that pie.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 9:43 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
One more thing…
When was the last time you tried to get a home loan in the US?
A vast majority fo the industry is driven by the rules set by by… drum roll please… Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So, while I will not lay all of the blame on Barney Frank, to say he and his cohorts who defelcted regulation of Fannie and Freddie are not a huge part of the problem are not being honest with themselves.
In fact, I just attempted to refinance and found that the credit thresholds increased due to new standards by Fannie and Freddie. My spouse and I have scores of 718 and 763. Since one was under 720 we had to pay half a point as mortgage insurance. Why? Guidelines laid out by Fannie and Freddie.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:45 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I don’t need to see a chart to see that once we started supplying Europe’s war effort, people started working. But 2D is right in that the war is what brought us out of the depression, not anything that FDR did.
My home area of the country benefited greatly from the WPA. We actually got some well made structures like my High School stadium, made out of stone (Still called the stone castle) and South Holston Dam, once the largest earth fill dam in the world. But most of the projects were a disaster. WPA was said to stand for “We’re Piddlin’ Around”.
Considering the great times i had behind that dam in my boat on that lake and having that great old stadium, it is hard for me to criticize the WPA, but over all it didn’t work very well. I don’t think that there are many structures still left.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 9:56 AM | Link to this
USinUK
You do know that FDR, like GW Bush suspended habeas corpus. Right. He also ordered the Manhatten Project to be started. Of course he didn’t live to see the bombs dropped. I support both of those actions, but since you have, in the past really raised hell about Bush’s suspension of habeas corpus, I thought that I should point that out.
FDR was a great president during the war, but I’m sure that the fact that even talking against the war in public could mean a prison term made it a lot easier than what GW Bush just went through.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 9:56 AM | Link to this
2D -
“Sorry, but in retrospect, I do not see a 4% drop in the unemployment rate as a worthwhile return for the massive investment FDR and his administration made.”
well, to use your skin cancer analogy, this is a chance to freeze off the mole before it metasticizes to your organs.
“Based on various sources, paticularly taking the average unemployment rates, in 1932 I see the number to be right around 23%. In 1938, before WWII started, I see the number to be right around 19%.”
well, first of all, FDR took office in 1933, not 1932. secondly, unemployment fell from 25% in 1933 to 14.3% in 1937 - LONG before any war preparation started. it rose to 19% in 1938 during the recession I mentioned above, then fell again to 14% in 1940, pre-lend-lease.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I think that this is where a lot of times, we miss the point the other person is making.
So: Do you disagree that Ireland is offering US companies a great tax incentive for moving to their country?
Do you disagree that many US companies are taking them up on it?
Do you have any idea of the average working wage in Ireland? I don’t knoiw whether you avoided those points or just forgot about them.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 10:09 AM | Link to this
“But most of the projects were a disaster. WPA was said to stand for “We’re Piddlin’ Around”.”
yep. that Appalachian trail … disaster … the TVA? WHAT a nightmare. The Merritt Parkway Bridges … what were they thinking? not to mention, hundreds of roads/streets, public buildings like the Dock Street Theater, Coit Tower, sanitation projects, school lunch projects, projects to help provide clothing for the poor.
was it perfect? of course not - what is?? but it employed 8 million people and put them to work, rather than just putting them on benefits.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Point of clarification. We started SHIPPING supplies during March of 1941 at the beginning of the lend lease program. In other words, by the time of the lend lease program, we had been cranking up our war production in order to supply $34.1 billion worth of supplies to Britain and $11.3 Billion worth of supplies to the Soviet Union. THAT is why the economy boomed in 1938.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 10:14 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
Yes… FDR took office in 1933, but the unemployment rate when he took office was 23% or thereabouts. His programs, through massive Federal intervention caused those numbers to drop and that decrease coincided very nicely with the 1936 elections. Then, after some extended reduction, another recession hit. Why? Probably because the “recovery” was not real. It was based on the government spending money it didn’t have. Once that borrowed money dried up, the unemployment rate increased until the government borrowed more money and the war effort began.
To build even further on the skin cancer analagy, his progress was akin to freezing off the mole while the giant melanoma continues to ravage the body. His administration spent alot of money, constructed useful public projects and helped ease some suffering. All good and noble things.
But…
His policies DID NOT end The Great Depression. However, I will not go so far as to say that his policies extended the crisis like others will.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 10:21 AM | Link to this
2D -
“When was the last time you tried to get a home loan in the US?”
I’ve been here for 3 years - but before I left (pre-melt-down), getting a loan was easy-peasy.
Banks everywhere are tightening lending standards - it has nothing to do with Fannie and Freddie and everything to do with being totally pantsed when all their chickens came home to roost. They announced that tighter lending practices were going to start months ago.
“What exactly is that? The reason I ask is this… Even as a strong Conservative, I could get behind some sort of “basic” health care program because as you pointed out, it is for the public good.”
at minimum, every person should have access to a GP for basic screenings, immunizations, etc. Women should have access to OBGYNs for annual paps, pre-natal care and childbirth. Children should have regular exams, immunizations. that’s at minimum. In a perfect world, I’d like for people to be treated for cancer without having to declare bankruptcy.
a couple of last random things - the biggest impediment to our global competitiveness is health care. it’s the #1 rising cost for manufacturers and it’s the #1 hurdle they have to cross when going up against countries who provide national health care (UK, Germany, etc).
as far as farming goes, it’s something I really don’t know enough about to discuss intelligently. I agree with everything you say on principle, but I really don’t know how the system works to say “well, they should change this or cut that”. knowwhatImean, jellybean? so, in principle, I’m right there with ya! :-)
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 10:34 AM | Link to this
USinUk
So FDR is responsible for the Appy trail? LOL Funny, I thought the Cherokee Indians were responsible for the Appy trail. My scout troop has hiked and cleaned many many miles of it. There are a few foot bridges that the WPA could have built but not much else.
South Holston Dam is a TVA dam, but it was designed and built to put people to work. It’s basically a big pile of rocks with a turbine attached. Pick up rock. Carry it over here. Drop rock. That’s what WPA workers were great at. They were mostly unskilled labor.
There may be other earth fill damns in the TVA system but I have never heard of one and the other dams were built by a separate agency called the TVA. (Remember, I went to school, worked at the local TV station and taught broadcast classes in Knoxville. I wish I had a dime for everytime I was in the TVA buildings) These were massive stressed concrete structures, requiring extremely specialized skills, as did the bridges and most of the projects you mentioned. Sure, there may have been some WPA folks hired to clean up or carry rocks but unskilled labor did not build the TVA system or anything else you mentioned. If it is a stone wall, chances are, they built it. If it is a high stress concrete structure engineers and BIG machines built it, with maybe a little help from non-skilled workers.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 10:34 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
hab corp: believe it or not, I don’t think that FDR’s suspension of it is okey-dokey just because he’s a dem. it was wrong then, it’s wrong now. (just like I think the Black Ops program was just as immoral under Clinton as it was under Bush)
Ireland: have companies relocated there because of the taxes? yep. from both the US and Europe. and guess what? the country is currently circling the drain - it’s bailed out one bank, but it’s on the brink of defaulting. so, low taxes may benefit the companies, but it sure as hell hasn’t benefitted the country. And, one more thing - health care is nationalized there, too, lowering employer costs.
as for wages, this was all I could find: IRELAND has the fifth-highest minimum wage in the developed world - but the lowest tax on it. But despite high wages and low taxes, high prices in Ireland means an average worker’s standard of living ranks only 12th among the 30 countries of the Organisation for Economic Development and Co-Operation (OECD). http://www. independent.ie/business/irish/ ireland-ranks-well-for-high-wages-low-tax-47454.html
WPA: the WPA still cut unemployment in half. yes, the war took us the rest of the way home, but the New Deal did far more good than ill
2D and TOJ -
FOR THE RECORD, I NEVER SAID THAT THE WPA/NEW DEAL ENDED THE DEPRESSION. It did, however, lower unemployment by 50% and provide much needed infrastructure and support to help get our country moving again.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
Here in the States, the mortgage industry has almost EVERYTHING to do with Fannie and Freddie. Fannie and Freddie set the standards and most everyone else follows suit. At least that is what the last three mortgage brokers I spoke with told me.
I think I could get on board with your version of basic health care. Specifically for children/pregnant women. I too believe that no child/baby should ever be without health care. I’m simply torn with he aspect of personal responsibility. I have a sibling who right now chooses to not work, quit a job with benefits and now cries they can’t afford to go to the doctor or the dentist. I don’t want my tax dollars going to keep that dead beat healthy (Sorry if that feels vindictive but I despise free loaders adn we all know we can talk about our own family).
I’m not convinced that health care is the biggest hurdle the US has in the global economy. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn’t. However, let’s assume that is. Having a national health care system may or may not be the answer. There are ways to provide more efficient health care without having the government get involved. Capping malpractice suits. Better integration of electronic systems. Better education for individuals to care for themselves (back to treating the problem not the symptoms). Better education for the ludicrous numbers of prescriptions being written. More inventive health care plans (I’m a big fan of HSA’s).
At the end of the day, back to my earlier exmaple. I don’t want my (or anyone else’s) tax dollars paying for my dead beat sibling.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
USinUK
at minimum, every person should have access to a GP for basic screenings, immunizations, etc. Women should have access to OBGYNs for annual paps, pre-natal care and childbirth. Children should have regular exams, immunizations. that’s at minimum. In a perfect world, I’d like for people to be treated for cancer without having to declare bankruptcy.
Treated for Cancer? Are you going against your adopted country’s policy of varying the amount of care depending on the age of the patient?
How about old people, girl. You had to read the post I presented this morning. Do you dispute anything I said? How are elderly cancer patients treated in England? Is there a state sponsored Cancer Treatment center like we have here? The BBC doesn’t spend millions on a documentary about a problem that doesn’t exist.
I have to tell you, after what I read last night, If I were you, I would avoid the subject of socialized medicine like the plague.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 10:48 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
obviously, I didn’t see Dateline last night, but I’ve read loads of articles about this situation.
first and foremost, the doctor that did ALL her IVF treatments should lose his/her license. why are there high standards for adoption but no standards for IVF? why were there no home visits, financial checks, psychiatric examinations? one last thing about the doctor - implanting 8 embryos is more than double the ethical standard - WTF was going on in that office???
secondly, her PR agency just wrote an op-ed in the USAToday yesterday - followed with her interview on Dateline … folks, this is the first of the onslaught. I think she’s soon going to join the ranks of the “blahblahblah + 8” and “The Duggar Family” freakshows - people who exploit their children for money.
sad? this goes beyond sad on SOOOOOOOOO many levels. this is “sad” that is just going to go on and on and on.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 10:54 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Your point was that companies move out of America to other countries because there are low wages and has nothing to do with taxes. While that may be the case sometimes, it certainly isn’t the case with Ireland.
Apparently, they are going through the same world wide money crunch as everyone else, but I can’t imagine that turning an empty field or an empty building into a employee hiring, tax producing company would hurt Ireland. Isn’t 11% better than no percent? As far as I have found out so far, my new company wouldn’t ever take anything from Ireland and just send them 11% of my profits. I can’t believe that would hurt them.
By Gale
February 11, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
Providing health care only for children has an unintended consequence of convincing parents to not marry, or not cover the child themselves in situations where they certainly could afford to do so because the child will then get free healthcare.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 11:05 AM | Link to this
2D and TOJ -
“At the end of the day, back to my earlier exmaple. I don’t want my (or anyone else’s) tax dollars paying for my dead beat sibling.”
well, criminey, who does? it happens everywhere you have systems to provide a helping hand - people decide to take advantage of it. Does that mean you decide to end the programs all together, ultimately hurting the majority of people who need it in order to punish the people who take advantage??
“How about old people, girl. You had to read the post I presented this morning. Do you dispute anything I said? How are elderly cancer patients treated in England? Is there a state sponsored Cancer Treatment center like we have here?”
not being elderly, myself, I can only comment on what I know from first-hand experience - my MIL and aunt- and uncle-in-law. My MIL has severe rheumetoid arthritis and a lot of problems related to the meds that she has to take. My aunt and uncle have had vision issues, a stroke, a hip replacement and my uncle has had some kind of illness over the last 8 or so months. They all are able to see their doctors regularly, receive appropriate treatments (including diagnostics), have surgery if necessary. Additionally, they have access to pain treatment specialists if necessary. AND all their drugs are covered.
Now. do we have specialist cancer centers? of course we do. and vision centers and pediatric centers, etc.
I haven’t had a chance to read your article, TOJ - I’ve been up to my eyeballs in the Depression and work. if you don’t mind, I’ll read it when I get home - k?
but, as I said - my exposure to how the NHS treats the elderly has been exemplary.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 11:05 AM | Link to this
USInUK…
I’m glad someone from the left has said that The New Deal did not end The Great Depression. So now, the next question…
If The New Deal merely lowered unemployement and didn’t end The Great Depression, why would should we implement another New Deal-esque program to stave off the current financial crisis? Our unemployment isn’t anything close to what we saw in 1932, 1972 or 1982.
We need to focus our resources on business and manufacturing development, not large scale government programs that will either end in a couple of years or require more government debt to continue. Business and manufacturing are the focundations of an economy. NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this
2D
I think I could get on board with your version of basic health care. Specifically for children/pregnant women. I too believe that no child/baby should ever be without health care.
See what you are talking about? Children and pregnant women require a small fraction of the expense of keeping old people alive. I’m sure USinUK doesn’t want to talk about this, but in the UK and Canada, elderly patients are given few options. That’s a fact.
Also, most of the leading drug companies are in the US. These companies all refuse to sell the newer and better drugs to countries who have socialized medicine because those countries require massive discounts which the drug companies refuse to give. The result is the fact that the those countries have outdated drugs. They may still work, but the new ones would work better.
I would love to see a great working system, but I’m not a kid, nor a young family, so I would be a liability to the system. We see how those liabilities are being treated in the UK and Canada.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 11:14 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“Your point was that companies move out of America to other countries because there are low wages and has nothing to do with taxes. While that may be the case sometimes, it certainly isn’t the case with Ireland.”
I see your point - do you have any statistics of how many left the US to go to Ireland?? I can understand companies leaving the Eurozone to Ireland - but, frankly, with the US, I’d be interested to see what kinds of companies and their logic (skilled labor? english speakers for call centers? etc) - tax breaks are all well and good, but if you have an “eejit” workforce (to use the Irish colloquialism), you’ll wind up losing money. Not to mention, the FX effect is going to hurt the bottom line, as well - these days, more than any gains from tax breaks (right now, it’s about 1.29 dollars to the Euro).
By Mara
February 11, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this
Frustrated, the Mr. and I watched parts of it and here are some points and my thoughts -
she doesn’t think foodstamps and SSI are welfare?!
it’s been estimated that the cost of delivering the infants and caring for the newborns until they are healthy enough to leave the hospital is between $1.5 million to $3 million. Should we assume that since she says she isn’t recieving ‘help from the government’ that she’ll be paying that bill herself, and not leaving it up to the California taxpayers?
evidently three of her older children are classified as ‘special needs’. Who cares for those special needs?
she has a publicist. WTF?!
and a french manicure. again…WTF?
she’s said that she wanted lots of children to make up for a lonely childhood and a cold, distant mother. And yet after the pregnancy put her in bed for six weeks, that cold and distant mother was good enough to house, feed, bathe, and care for her six grandchildren.
even Sulemans six-year-old daughter Amerah understood how stressful 14 kids will be.
there are polyamist families with multiple adults that have fewer children than this (courtesy of Mr. Mara)
that’s pretty much it. I think she’s a selfish, narcissistic idiot who thinks only of what SHE wanted and not about the actual children that would be affected
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 11:29 AM | Link to this
USinUK
but, as I said - my exposure to how the NHS treats the elderly has been exemplary.
Read it when you get a chance. I have to get to work. I went a little crazy at the end (like you would expect,) but you will get my point.
Basic care for the elderly doesn’t appear to be the problem. The problem is what we call in America, catastrophic illnesses. Cancer was the center of every article I read. American Health care actually pays for extended treatment while England nor Canada does.
I agree with 2D in that we need something, but if it is a system that just lets the elderly die, it is not much of a system and that is the real problem. A small minority of babies have problems but every single old person is going to have problems. It’s why we all die.
By The Other Jack
February 11, 2009 11:33 AM | Link to this
USinUK
All I know about Ireland is that my kid’s software company moved there and he had to find another job. They didn’t even give him the option.
I am considering Ireland for my new company, but Costa Rica might work better for reasons that I can’t go into. (No it is not a porn related site, even though that was an option.)
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 11:49 AM | Link to this
2D -
First of all, the “official” unemployment rate calculation is different now than it was in 1972 (although, if you want to contrast with the Carter recession, that was 1975, not 1972).
so, what I did was look up the household data (which is what is used officially now, but not back then). so - in order to compare like to like, I pulled seasonally adjusted household data, a year-on-year comparison on a monthly basis - and pulled the highest unemployment numbers for each year in question.
Using that data, the highest unemployment for 1975 was 9.0%, 10.8% in 1982, 7.8% in 1992 and currently stands at 7.6%. So, really, we’re not too far off.
(if you want to use the method used in 1975, we are currently around 18%)
“We need to focus our resources on business and manufacturing development, not large scale government programs that will either end in a couple of years or require more government debt to continue.”
no, we really need to focus on infrastructure - and have needed to since the 1990s. our nations bridges are collapsing (helllooooo, Minneapolis!), our ports, our water and sewage systems need to be looked at, our power grids, etc. You can spend all the time and effort you want on manufacturing, but if you don’t have the most efficient method of moving items from a to b, then you only have half the solution.
By Frustrated
February 11, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this
Mara,
When I was watching, I heard that after her first 3 or 4, she made sure there was nothing in the law that would allow for the father to be part of the children’s life (apparently the “donor” was a friend)….
Then at the end of the show she was saying that she hopes the “donor” will have an open mind and get to know his children.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
I’ll definitely read it when I get home … a coupla more things to do before I head out.
as for the move to Ireland - like I said, I can see the benefit for Eurozone countries (no FX effect, lower taxes - and the BEER!), but any reduction in taxes that the software company is going to see is going to be eaten up by the currency exchange. let’s just put it this way, if the company moved a year ago, they lost dough. and lots of it.
“The problem is what we call in America, catastrophic illnesses. Cancer was the center of every article I read. American Health care actually pays for extended treatment while England nor Canada does.”
catastropic illness is a problem everywhere - I remember reading somewhere that most people go through 80% of their assets in the last year of their life because of it.
gah - I won’t get ahead of myself - let me read the article, then I’ll comment. :-)
“A small minority of babies have problems but every single old person is going to have problems. It’s why we all die”
we all die - not necessarily of old age, though. The US has the highest infant mortality rate of the industrialized nations - so, yes, I think pre-natal and early childhood health care is critical.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 12:09 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
Sorry, but you’ve gone completely in circles and at least to me haven’t proven anything.
I think the difference between 9% and 7.6%, 10.8% and 7.6%. 7.8% and 7.6% not so much. But still…
We all agree that The New Deal did not break the The Great Depression. For the sake of argument we will also agree that the unemployment rates from 1972, 1982, 1992 and 2008 are not significantly different. So, back to the question I asked which you did not answer…
If we are trying to break a recessionary cycle, why would we implement a New Deal-esque plan to do so? It didn’t break the depression in the 1930’s. The recessions we saw in 1972, 1982, 1992 and 2001 all broke without massive government intervention.
This is being packaged as a “stimulus” bill. Nothing you or anyone else has brought forth indicates how this will stimulate the economy. Even the amdinistration admits it might not work, at least as well as they hope.
Infrastructure is great, but to hear you talk, you’d think we live in a third world country. Have certain cities (a.k.a. Atlanta) fallen behind the times? Most certainly. But now is not the time to make those investments.
Now is the time to rebuild our economy so we can afford to make the necessary upgrades to our infrastructure. No one in their right mind is going to put new windows on their house if they’re piled up in credit card debt, unless of course the old ones break. That is exactly what you are proposing.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this
2D -
“Sorry, but you’ve gone completely in circles and at least to me haven’t proven anything.”
sorry - I’m a bit scattered - juggling too many things at the moment.
the point was that the stats I quoted you were the unemployment numbers at their worst - we have nowhere near hit bottom (top) of the unemployment rate. We’re still seeing increases in the weekly new filers, we’re still hearing daily announcements of layoffs. In other words, we’re on track to at the very least meet, if not exceed those numbers because we have an additional degree of difficulty: the financial system is a wreck.
In past recessions, we had a financial system that could cushion the blow (even if the rates were higher), that could still make loans to SMEs. Liquidity is starting to ease, but is by no means flowing freely, despite interest rates of 0.25%. Banks aren’t providing the money that small businesses need to stay afloat.
plus, 66% of our GDP is consumer spending. whether you agree with Keynes or not, the paradox of thrift that I mentioned yesterday is true. as people become more afraid for their jobs, the less they’ll spend (you can see that around you today) - the less they spend, the more companies will go out of business. unless some kind of interruption to the cycle happens, this will continue a downward trend.
And, don’t forget, Uncle Ronnie did HUGE amounts of deficit spending to get us out of the 1982 recession. he may not have called it a stimulus package, but that’s exactly what it was.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 12:37 PM | Link to this
2D -
“Nothing you or anyone else has brought forth indicates how this will stimulate the economy. Even the amdinistration admits it might not work, at least as well as they hope.”
well, now I’m starting to tire of repeating myself. I’m not trying to be rude, but if you don’t get it, then I’m wasting my time. I’ve explained to you how the CBO has said that it will result in a minimum of 3 million up to 6 million new jobs. I’ve explained to you the principle of an increase in consumer spending slowing the increase in unemployment, which will in turn further spur spending causing companies to hire.
if you still don’t want to accept that and remain steadfast against the stimulus package, then fine.
again, that’s not me being rude. that’s me just being tired of going in circles.
By Monica
February 11, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this
“the less they spend, the more companies will go out of business.”
Such a paradox here! It makes my head spin. Since I am paid by tax dollars, I can really see the quandry. I decide to save more money and spend less, so I dtop eating in our local restaurants. That means that I don’t contribute to the tax revenue, in essence my own salary, which will be less this year because I didn’t spend as much money for fear of losing it later, only I’ve already lost it if I don’t spend it.
Did anyone understand that? I’m not sure that I did. (BTW - my kids are taking a test today, so don’t worry, Gandalf, I’m not ignoring my duties.)
By 2D
February 11, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
USInUK…
How can you state that we have not hit the bottom (or the top). Both of our previous posts showed the unemployment rates at some of the worst recessions since WWII. Sure they could go higher, but by your own assertion, we’re pretty much hit them.
Also…
I think through the conversation, my original points on this stimulus bill has been lost.
First, I’m not one who says the government should do nothing. I simply don’t agree with the items in the package.
Second, even if it does save/create jobs and help turn things around, I don’t believe it will be a lasting recovery. Numbers will look good in the short term, but I believe (and fear) we will see the same false recovery that FDR saw in 1937 and no looming war to fnally save the economy.
Of course the paradox of thrift holds true. If the American consumer stops spending, then demand lowers, then companies cut back, etc. But why should American businesses, or businesses around the world, only rely on the American consumer. If we reassert ourselves as a net exporter rather than a net importer, we will have the entire world from whom to find consumer spending and generate income.
That is why I believe that anything the government passes should focus on tax breaks to put more money into people’s hands for spending/reducing their enormous debt and rebuilding our business and manufacturing bases to better enable us to compete in the world arena.
By Mara
February 11, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
let’s face it. Nobody knows what is going to happen with the economy.
Nobody really knows if it’s better to do nothing and let the chips fall where they may, or for the government to try jump-starting private investment with public capital. Nobody knows. Maybe tax-cuts plus spending cuts could be the panacea that the right believes them to be, regardless of how painful it’d be for the working class. Maybe massive spending on infrastructure and short-term employment won’t do as much good as the left hopes it will. Nobody knows.
As a fiscal conservative, I abhore how BOTH parties have gone about mis-managing the economy on general, and the people’s money in particular. It’s rediculous that there are departments in the government that have been so mismanaged for so long that the GAO is unable to even audit them, let alone do any kind of finacial watchdogging!
But as a social liberal, I do think that in times of crisis the government has an obligation to the people to provide as soft a landing as possible…most especially for those who are willing to work but can’t find a job with a living wage. And if that means more deficits for a while, so be it.
I don’t know what will work. NOBODY knows what will work. But I sincerely hope that this spending package does.
By 2D
February 11, 2009 1:41 PM | Link to this
Mara…
You are so correct… Noone knows what will work, at least not on this large of a scale. All we can do is learn from our past lessons, make the best decisions possible at the present time, do our own individual part and look to the future.
I am glad you’ve called it a spending package. :)
By American Woman
February 11, 2009 1:45 PM | Link to this
Hey Monica! I’m with you. It IS confusing!!! I have a close relative who’s a widely-respected economist, and occasionally I corner her at family gatherings to break it down for me. It doesn’t take long for her to be completely over my head, but I do get this message loud and clear: Anyone who attempts to give you a black & white, clear-cut, simpleton answer is simply leaving out more than they’re telling you. Economics is a complex, non-precise dynamic, and (as in the case of the man who insisted there was one reason only for the crash of ‘29) “If it were that simple, there wouldn’t have been hundreds or thousands of books written about it, attempting to understand and explain the complex relationships between the many factors.”
What I DO understand is that the “tax cuts are the only solution, the only thing we should do, and we don’t need no regulation” crowd was in charge for a long time, and gave tax cuts to many while regulating few and spending billions in Iraq, borrowing from China, and driving our national debt so high they had to change the board that displays it. To quote the ultimate public over-simplifier, Dr. Phil, “How’s that working for ya?” Answer: Not so hot. Even I can understand that you have to be insane to keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting to be graced, eventually, with a different result. Yet the Republicans in Congress are telling us to do just that. Apparently, they’re okay with the fact that it only works for a few, at the expense of many. (I’m not.) Perhaps that’s why they keep doing it: it works for THEM, and we simply don’t matter.
As for those who simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that anything our new federal administration might try doing to right the ship before it rolls over and dumps us all to the bottom of the econoic ocean, well…. at least somebody’s trying. If “more of the same s—t” is the only thing on the menu, I’m eating elsewhere. (I rather think that sums up the election last November.) There’s no guarantees we’ll be better off, but at least somebody is trying to THINK and DO instead of deny and ignore. Now’s a good time for a little “hope” and “faith,” don’t you think? My local restaurants miss me.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 2:21 PM | Link to this
2D -
“How can you state that we have not hit the bottom (or the top). Both of our previous posts showed the unemployment rates at some of the worst recessions since WWII. Sure they could go higher, but by your own assertion, we’re pretty much hit them.”
by my own assertion?? I have said nothing of the kind - rather, I have pointed out repeatedly that the weekly new filings measure continues to rise (more than a half-million new filers each week) and we keep hearing announcements of more layoffs to come.
as for the 1937-38 recession, did you read what happened that year? major strikes by what is now the AFL-CIO (at the time, they were still 2 separate orgs) … what happens to the economy when you have major work stoppages … ??? people aren’t paid, household spending is cut back … and the circle of life continues.
“But why should American businesses, or businesses around the world, only rely on the American consumer. If we reassert ourselves as a net exporter rather than a net importer, we will have the entire world from whom to find consumer spending and generate income.”
… and if all the raindrops were lemon drops and gum drops …
look. I agree with you in principle. I would LOVE to see the US return to the manufacturing stature it held in the 1950s - PowerHouse of the Universe.
But, the fact is, it’s a different world now than it was then. We don’t have 80% of Europe recovering from having the you-know-what bombed out of it. We don’t have the Eastern half of Europe into the Baltic completely closed off to trade. The number of 3rd world countries is diminishing.
What were 3rd world countries are now major players in the global economy - and will continue to become even more so (the BRIC economies - Brazil and India, especially), the PIG economies - Poland, Ireland and Greece - countries whose economies were built on cottage industries have also become international players. Countries that were completely closed off to the free market are now open (Eastern Europe and Russia). And, of course, GB, France and Germany aren’t spending all their time trying to deal with the rubble from the Allied and Axis bombs - they’re actually manufacturers in their own right.
None of this is to say that we’re going to be replaced by China in the next year. But we will be within the next 30-40.
So, rather than look backwards and trying to model our future on our past, we need to look forward to figure out where we fit in the new dynamic.
Who knows - maybe you’re right and we don’t need to spend money on our roads, bridges and rail (I think Minneapolis would differ with you) - but I still think that those are the basic bricks that pretty much any economy is built with, so we need to address them.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this
Mara—Kudos on your 1:30 post. Your view represents an honesty and intelligence that I find refreshing.
spending billions in Iraq, borrowing from China, and driving our national debt so high they had to change the board that displays it.
AW—Please explain to me how borrowing/printing another trillion or so dollars (with more trillions to follow, most likely) to fund a bunch of pork-barrel projects is fundamentally different from what Congress has been doing the past 8 or more years?? If this doesn’t qualify as “more of the same s_t”, I don’t know what does.
well, now I’m starting to tire of repeating myself. I’m not trying to be rude, but if you don’t get it, then I’m wasting my time. I’ve explained to you how the CBO has said that it will result in a minimum of 3 million up to 6 million new jobs. I’ve explained to you the principle of an increase in consumer spending slowing the increase in unemployment, which will in turn further spur spending causing companies to hire.
2D—Welcome to the world of trying to have an intelligent discussion with USinUK. I mean, after all, she’s already EXPLAINED things to you several times.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
dangitall, son! you didn’t include a link to your article!! how am I supposed to read it if you don’t tell me where it is???
secondly, “First: The only provision in the spending bill that would have helped the middle class is being pulled by the dims. it would give up to a $!5,000 (or 10%) tax break to a home buyer. I thought that Washington was actually thinking about the middle class there for a minute. So much for that.”
I pootled around the intertubes to find what you’re talking about - but couldn’t find anyone who has come out against the measure. what I have found is that they want to change the effective dates. The current Senate bill has it retroactive to anyone who bought a house in the last year. If this bill is to stimulate the economy, you’re trying to encourage new homeowners, which will help ease the glut of inventory.
if you can point me to a source that says differently, I’d be interested to read it.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“2D—Welcome to the world of trying to have an intelligent discussion with USinUK. I mean, after all, she’s already EXPLAINED things to you several times.”
nice.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 2:37 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“2D—Welcome to the world of trying to have an intelligent discussion with USinUK. I mean, after all, she’s already EXPLAINED things to you several times.”
nice.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 11, 2009 2:48 PM | Link to this
HOW FDR GOT US OUT OF THE DEPRESSION: Hitler invaded Poland
His socialist spending policy didn’t do a dang ol’ thing. Remember one thing about FDR, was a liar, before all else. Except for Jimmy “GOOBER-HEAD” Carter, he is the worst president we could have had at the time. And look what kind of meatloaf head we have now! I may revise 1 and 2 if the jerkwater doesn’t change soon. He’s going to meet with ramadamadingdong! No lower level talks, no preconditions. Just sit down and talk to a man that believes the holocost didn’t happen? WTF?
Good afternoon WTW! EXPAT! Have a Bass for me this afternoon!
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 2:55 PM | Link to this
GtG -
“No lower level talks, no preconditions. Just sit down and talk to a man that believes the holocost didn’t happen?”
I guess that means he’ll be talking to the Vatican, too …
Bass??? not bad but too heavy … I prefer Stella Artois
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 3:03 PM | Link to this
Lawmakers Agree on $789 Billion Stimulus Proposal By Brian Faler and Ryan J. Donmoyer
Feb. 11 (Bloomberg) — U.S. lawmakers are cutting a proposed economic stimulus package to $789 billion and may be able to send it to President Barack Obama’s desk by the end of this week, said Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus.
“The votes are there for passage, that is clear,” Baucus said, while cautioning that lawmakers are working out details of the agreement. “Everyone is giving in here.”
… wow, that was quick!
Baucus said about 35 percent of the plan would be set aside for tax cuts and the remainder would be government spending. He said lawmakers agreed to “shave” a proposed $15,000 tax credit for homebuyers, though he didn’t provide specifics.
Baucus said the plan might be approved by the House of Representatives as soon as tomorrow.
“There’s nothing like a deadline to force people to give and take a little bit,” Baucus said. Lawmakers are trying to get a bill to Obama before the Feb. 16 Presidents’ Day holiday.
By Gale
February 11, 2009 3:04 PM | Link to this
Well, I’ve tried to read all the explanations and I’m still confused. It is all over my head and I don’t think the posters are to blame for that.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:04 PM | Link to this
a comparison: the Kentucky Derby - there’s a horse in the race running at 50-1. 1 horse out of 20 (subprime mortgages at their peak were only 20% of the market). The horse comes in dead last. The majority of people in the stadium happened to place a bet on that horse — some of them for ludicrous amounts of money — and they all lost the lot. while the horse was the root of the problem, the millions of $$$ that were lost that day were the results of the bets.
USinUK—I don’t have enough time to adequately address your post, but your “explanation” of how the derivative markets work contains numerous errors. First, and foremost, your comparison of selling futures contracts or entering into “credit swap” agreements to betting on the outcome of horse races is completely invalid. The essence of gambling is to create risk where none existed on its own. That is to say, the “asset” which underlies the “investments” that bettors make has no inherent value, such that the amount of money wagered on the outcome of the race has no relationship to anything of tangible value. In that way, the outcome of the race is trivial in comparison to the amounts of money won or lost by individual bettors, which seems to be the essence of your argument.
The derivative markets are just the opposite, however—the purpose of futures contracts and credit swaps is to reduce existing risk, not to create risk out of thin air. Changes in value of the assets which underlie the derivative investments are non-trivial, and have tremendous real-world consequences, as the dramatic drop in real estate values has shown us. Ultimately, futures contracts and “credit swap agreements” are a “zero-sum game”, in which one person’s loss is another’s gain. As such, they are not “evil” in and of themselves, as long as they are administered honestly. From my reading, the big problem with AIG, et. al. is that they sold “insurance policies” on bundled mortgage loans, but never set aside adequate capital to cover any potential losses. Of course, the whole situation was complicated by the fact that the value of the bundled mortgages was misrepresented at every level, all the way from the individually inflated property appraisals to the overly-optimistic security ratings given to the bundled loans.
As such, I stand firm in my opinion that “The root cause of our current financial crisis is the fact that millions and millions of people borrowed money that they didn’t pay back. Period. Certainly, the overlay of the financial derivatives has greatly complicated the situation, but the bottom line is that there wouldn’t be a financial crisis in the first place if all the borrowers had paid their loans back on time”.
By American Woman
February 11, 2009 3:09 PM | Link to this
“AW—Please explain to me how borrowing/printing another trillion or so dollars (with more trillions to follow, most likely) to fund a bunch of pork-barrel projects is fundamentally different from what Congress has been doing the past 8 or more years??”
Well, for one thing, the LOCATION of the bridges, water treatment plants, etc. being built with our tax money. Also, I’m guessing that wages earned, taxed, and spent right here in the USA will stimulate our own economy more than the $120K-plus private contractor salaries (which exceed the number of soldier salaries in Iraq) our tax dollars are paying Parsons, KBR, Blackwater employees (not to be confused with the $30 or $40K our soldiers receive for their work and sacrifice.) But feel FREE to move to Iraq to enjoy the benefits of your tax dollars there. KBR might even bring you on board to provide your services at quadruple your current pay. Adjust the insurgents, bill the Pentagon. Patreaus is already paying them cash to not kill Americans, so why not? If you’re too scared, there’s always Dubai.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:22 PM | Link to this
nice
USinUK—You have to admit that your statements to 2D were very condescending. 2D has put on an amazing show for us the past few days, making great arguments backed up by history, current facts, and lots of common sense. But, because she (he?) didn’t see things your way, you tried to lecture her (him?) like a third-grade schoolteacher, as you have done to me in the past. Just my observation….
On the lighter side, USinUK, your horse racing example did reveal a lack of understanding of the nuts and bolts of gambling—which is probably a good thing. The type of betting which occurs at the Kentucky Derby is known as “parimutuel betting”, in which the race track returns a fixed percentage of the total amount bet (usually 80%) to the winning bettors each race. In this way, the aggregate crowd of bettors is guaranteed to lose 20% of their collective “investments” regardless of which horses win or lose. The “odds” of each horse winning are simply calculated by dividing the amount bet on that particular horse by the total prize pool. As such, the horse in your example, a crowd favorite, would have “odds” of less than 1:1, and not 50:1 as you postulated. Finally, if a certain horse represents 20% of the total field, then there can only be 5 horses in the race, and not 20.
Just bustin’ on you, dear. ; > }
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:28 PM | Link to this
Well, for one thing, the LOCATION of the bridges, water treatment plants, etc. being built with our tax money. Also, I’m guessing that wages earned, taxed, and spent right here in the USA will stimulate our own economy more than the $120K-plus private contractor salaries (which exceed the number of soldier salaries in Iraq) our tax dollars are paying Parsons, KBR, Blackwater employees
Certainly that’s the “hope”, and there is some sensibility in believing that infrastructure projects will ultimately leave us in a stronger position economically. In the end, however, the MO being employed by Obama so far to stimulate the economy (deficit spending), doesn’t appear to be any different from what Congress has already been doing for the past 8 years, which is my only point here.
Also, I apologize for being rude to you yesterday, k. It’s just that your “we’re all in this together and let’s hope for the best” rhetoric is vastly different from your rhetoric while Bush was in charge. But, I’ll try to do what I’m asking Obama to do and not bring up the past. Ok?
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 3:31 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“I don’t have enough time to adequately address your post, but your “explanation” of how the derivative markets work contains numerous errors. First, and foremost, your comparison of selling futures contracts or entering into “credit swap” agreements to betting on the outcome of horse races is completely invalid.”
what are you talking about - derivatives are ALL ABOUT placing a bet. In futures you’re betting on the direction of interest rates. In CDS, you’re betting on the likelihood of a default (depending on whether you’re a buyer or seller).
You are absolutely right that derivatives began as a way to minimize risk and exposure - if you felt you had too much exposure to a particular sector (say, banking), you could buy derivatives as a form of insurance that, should they default, you won’t be out $$$. OR, if you felt confident that the banking sector would do okay in whatever time period of the instrument (say, the next 30 days), you could make a return by offering to “insure” the bond via a CDS.
darlin’ derivatives are BETS, pure and simple. and soon banks and other institutional investors began looking to maximize their returns using derivatives as an INVESTMENT rather than a hedge (corporate spreads were tight, so they couldn’t make add’l return there, agencies had only a slightly wider spread than corporates, so investors were taking greater and greater risk to earn return)
may I suggest the following article to illustrate (it’s about Gemstone, Deutsche Bank and M&T Bank: http:// www. nytimes.com/2009/01/20/business/20gem.html)
“The swaps enabled some investors to multiply their mortgage bets, while letting others wager that the housing bubble would pop. Worldwide, there are about $55 trillion of these contracts, which enable people to make side bets on whether borrowers will default on their debts. The market is so big that problems with even a fraction of these instruments could further destabilize the financial markets.”
google the phrase “I’m short your house” - again, people placing bets that you’re going to default on your mortgage, hoping they’ll make a return - that’s not hedging your risk or exposure, that’s gambling.
Bruno, I’ve never said that the ROOT isn’t “the fact that millions and millions of people borrowed money that they didn’t pay back”. But, if that was ALL it was, Lehman would not have gone under. Bear Stearns would not have needed a buyer. Bank of America … Citi … AIG … the dozens of smaller banks that the FDIC has had to eat … NONE of that would have happened if it was ONLY people that borrowed money that they didn’t pay back.
It’s obvious that you don’t agree or don’t want to agree or whatever, but I stand by my analogy - debt and default was a bonfire - it was a problem - that the default market turned into a horrific, deadly explosion.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:32 PM | Link to this
But feel FREE to move to Iraq to enjoy the benefits of your tax dollars there. KBR might even bring you on board to provide your services at quadruple your current pay.
Honestly, quadrupling my salary sounds pretty good right now. Where do I sign up??
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 3:40 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
bustin my chops because I’m not an evil sinner out gambling on the horses???!!! for shame!!! ;-)
(I take after the Scottish heritage on my mom’s side … unless I’m definitely getting a return, I’m SOOOO not parting with my money)
If I came across as condescending, I didn’t mean to - there were some things that 2D said that were incorrect, though, that I thought should be corrected. Most importantly, though, I always like to provide evidence to support why I believe/think the way I do - if that sounds like I’m lecturing, I apologize because it isn’t meant to - I just can’t say “well, the bill will do this” and leave it at that … I feel that it’s important to say how or why and who else thinks the same (like the CBO or Keynes or John McCain’s economic advisor).
so - Bruno, 2D, if I sounded like I was lecturing or condescending, then I apologize because that was not my intent.
:-)
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:49 PM | Link to this
It’s obvious that you don’t agree or don’t want to agree or whatever, but I stand by my analogy - debt and default was a bonfire - it was a problem - that the default market turned into a horrific, deadly explosion.
USinUK—We’ve been basically agreeing on this issue the whole time, just from different viewpoints. As I stated above, the legitimate use of derivatives isn’t the problem here. And, once again, the overlay of the derivative market greatly complicated the financial crisis. As such, we are agreeing.
However, like Lyrazel, and differently from you, I can’t get past the root cause of the entire fiasco, which was millions and millions of people borrowing money on properties that they truly couldn’t afford. In your scheme of things, this is apparently of minor consequence. In my scheme, it was the fuel which fanned the out-of-control fire which we’re now experiencing.
Finally, you’ve never addressed my point that derivative investing is essentially a “zero-sum game”, in which one person’s loss is another’s gain. The collective loss in real estate value, however, is NOT a “zero-sum game”, and is hurting us all.
By American Woman
February 11, 2009 3:51 PM | Link to this
“… your “we’re all in this together and let’s hope for the best” rhetoric is vastly different…”
No, it’s not. Though I was horrified by the Supreme Court’s order in 2000 to “stop counting the votes” — an event which led me to question everything I’d been brought up to believe about America — I did indeed think and feel to my very core that we were still “One Nation,” and I did indeed hope that my fears about the next 8 years would be unfounded. I certainly did not anticipate or hope for the ensuing disasters, nor did I “hope the President fails” like self-proclaimed GOP leader R. Limbaugh (confirmed by Georgia’s own Congressman Gingrey via an embarrassing apology for daring to suggest otherwise.)
In fact, I don’t dislike anyone until he or she gives me a compelling reason.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:54 PM | Link to this
so - Bruno, 2D, if I sounded like I was lecturing or condescending, then I apologize because that was not my intent.
Well, glad to see everyone playing nicely together again.
Out of curiosity, what is the maximum number of people who can enjoy “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride” at the same time?? Maybe a “group ride” together would make a nice difference. What do you think?? Of course, I guess we’d have to include chuck as well……. ; > }
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 3:57 PM | Link to this
Gotta run. Thanks again to 2D for the great posts this week. Special hello to AW.
By USinUK
February 11, 2009 3:59 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
I think we’re starting to enter to-may-to/to-mah-to territory … you say “greatly complicating” and I say “OMFG!!! my hair is on fire!!!”
“Finally, you’ve never addressed my point that derivative investing is essentially a “zero-sum game”, in which one person’s loss is another’s gain”
mmmmm … I don’t really see it quiiiiiite so black and white. when derivatives are used to hedge risk/exposure, you really do get gain on both sides - risk is hedged for one person (a gain) and the other person gets a return (a financial gain). now, when there’s a default, then, obviously one person wins in that they’re covered and the other person has to cover the bet. which is why I think this is more like charcoal … or maybe titanium gray … not b/w.
as for the collective loss in real estate value - that’s a perfect illustration of what I’m getting at. If we were JUST talking about people not paying their credit cards and mortgages, we would have a problem, but I think it would only be a fraction of what we see today in the market. Banks are refusing to lend, so people can’t get out and buy, which is why inventories are piling up and values are plummeting.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 5:18 PM | Link to this
I think we’re starting to enter to-may-to/to-mah-to territory …
Which is where we’ve been on this issue (and many others) all along, at least from my perspective. Of course, your statement here is a far cry from your initial reaction to my post:
sorry, my darlin, but you’re just flat-out wrong on this one.
Though I don’t claim to be an economist, I’ve taken a few college-level courses in Economics along with taking (and acing) the actuarial exams, so I do have a basic grasp of the issues. As such, your “I’ve already explained it to you” and “you’re just flat-out wrong” posts come across as insulting.
when derivatives are used to hedge risk/exposure, you really do get gain on both sides - risk is hedged for one person (a gain) and the other person gets a return (a financial gain).
It looks like we’re making some progress on our ongoing “risk management” discussions. Again, simply put, gambling creates risk out of thin air where none would exist otherwise. Insurance, whether through the use of financial derivatives or straight-up indemnity policies does the opposite: it reduces risk which already exists. And though this distinction seems to make no difference to you, it’s a world of difference to me. When I purchase home-owners insurance, it isn’t because I’m hoping that a catastrophe will hit me or even gambling that such an event will occur. The essence of the agreement is that I am willing to trade a small, guaranteed loss (the premium) for a larger, uncertain loss (the claim). If I insure my home for 80 years and never have a claim, I’m extremely happy, differently from a gambler who places a losing wager.
By Bruno
February 11, 2009 5:46 PM | Link to this
Such a paradox here! It makes my head spin. Since I am paid by tax dollars, I can really see the quandry. I decide to save more money and spend less, so I dtop eating in our local restaurants. That means that I don’t contribute to the tax revenue, in essence my own salary, which will be less this year because I didn’t spend as much money for fear of losing it later, only I’ve already lost it if I don’t spend it.
Monica, I think you’ve got a great handle on understanding basic economics. In the end, money is just a medium of exchange (paper, if you will). What the paper represents is basically capital (raw materials, finished goods) and labor, which are exchanged for one another. In a healthy economy, people are working hard and exchanging labor for capital frequently, so that everyone enjoys a high standard of living. When people stop working hard and exchanging their labor for capital, we end up in a downward spiral like the one we’re in. How and why upward spirals turn into downward spirals is somewhat complicated and often mysterious, but underneath it all is the principle of fair exchange.
The current “stimulus package” is simply designed to jump-start the “exchange engine” again by injecting the medium of exchange (money) into the system. Unfortunately, by creating more money without any corresponding increase of capital or labor, it causes a devaluation of this currency of exchange, which further strains the system since saved monies no longer have the same value they did at the time of saving.
If things look bad for us now, consider what Albania went through back in the late 1990s. With the government’s blessing, numerous “Ponzi schemes” broke out by which people thought they could make money without exchanging/contributing either labor or capital. Here’s a very interesting Wiki article wihch explains it all:
en .wikipedia.org/wiki/1997unrestin_Albania
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 8:48 AM | Link to this
Brunooooooo -
“I’ve taken a few college-level courses in Economics along with taking (and acing) the actuarial exams, so I do have a basic grasp of the issues. As such, your “I’ve already explained it to you” and “you’re just flat-out wrong” posts come across as insulting”
first of all, “explained to you” was not to you, it was to 2D and I’ve apologized if offense was taken as it was unintended.
major league hats-off for even taking the actuarial exams, much less passing them. seriously. me, I work in fixed income asset management - and have done for the past 6 years - for insitutional investors. so, what do I know.
“Insurance, whether through the use of financial derivatives or straight-up indemnity policies does the opposite: it reduces risk which already exists.” and “Finally, you’ve never addressed my point that derivative investing is essentially a “zero-sum game”, in which one person’s loss is another’s gain.”
and this is where I still stand by my “you’re flat-out wrong” assertion, leaving it it to someone who says it much better than I could: “You might think this means the whole shebang is a zero-sum game. Let them blow up, you might say, the longs and the shorts will offset each other. For every winner there will be a loser; for every half-dozen fools separated from their money there will be a new billionaire with a home in Kensington. Alas, that is not the whole story. Derivatives are not a zero-sum game, but a game in which the actual odds themselves follow long patterns of boom and bust. … in other words, it doesn’t insure you against cycles and bubbles, but can actually magnify them, which in this case, it has.
(as an aside, this article was written in 2007 — how prescient is this:) The typical American mortgage payer has not had a real wage rise in 34 years. He can only afford his bigger house and bigger car by working longer hours, putting his wife to work, and taking on more debt. This he can do easily – as long as the credit bubble, the housing bubble, and the bubble in credit derivatives are still expanding. When they stop growing, then the poor homeowner seeks another source of cash. Finding none, he can no longer pay his mortgage. And then all the bubbles blow up – including the mother of them all, the bubble in derivatives.
http:// www.moneyweek.com/ investments/stock-markets/derivatives-the-mother-of-all-bubbles.aspx
meanwhile …. AAAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
“Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, told CNBC in a documentary to be shown Thursday night that he did not fully understand the scope of the subprime mortgage market until well into 2005 and could not make sense of the complex derivative products created out of mortgages.”
http:// dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/ 2009/02/12/greenspan-says-he-was-mystified-by-subprime-market/
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 9:00 AM | Link to this
On a lighter note … from our friends at World Nutcases Daily, here’s the latest Obama urban myth/conspiracy/wacko theory (and, I have to say, it’s my favorite so far … WAY more creative than the birth certificate brouhaha):
Brace yourself for what I’m about to say next. Last fall, prior to the presidential election, a friend of mine, Dr. Wiley Drake, former second vice president for the Southern Baptist Convention, sent me an e-mail on which I didn’t report. It just seemed too extreme. It was from a software developer he met named Tom Fife who told of how he first heard of the name “Barack.”
I can’t prove whether it’s true or not, but in light of all that is happening, it just doesn’t seem that far-fetched anymore. All I know is that Tom Fife is a real guy – not some e-mail scam. I’ve talked to him. He was a government contractor with an active security clearance who took notes on his trips for debriefings with the Defense Intelligence Agency within the Department of Defense. This is what he wrote down after it happened in 1992, before anyone ever heard the name “Barack”:
The first time I heard of Barack During the period of roughly February 1992 to mid-1994, I was making frequent trips to Moscow, Russia, in the process of starting a software development joint-venture company with some people from the Russian scientific community. One of the men in charge on the Russian side was named V. M.; he had a wife named T.M.
V. was a level-headed scientist, while his wife was rather deeply committed to the losing Communist cause – a cause she obviously was not abandoning.
One evening, during a trip early in 1992, the American half of our venture were invited to V. & T.’s Moscow flat as we were about to return to the States. The party went well and we had the normal dinner discussions.
As the evening wore on, T. developed a decidedly rough anti-American edge – one her husband tried to quietly rein in.
The bottom line of the tirade she started against the United States went something like this:
“You Americans always like to think that you have the perfect government and your people are always so perfect. Well then, why haven’t you had a woman president by now? You had a chance to vote for a woman vice president and you didn’t do it.”
The general response went something along the lines that you don’t vote for someone just because of their sex. Besides, you don’t vote for vice president, but the president and vice president as a ticket.
“Well, I think you are going to be surprised when you get a black president very soon.”
The consensus we expressed was that we didn’t think there was anything innately barring that. The right person at the right time and sure, America would try to vote for the right person, be he or she, black or not.
“What if I told you that you will have a black president very soon and he will be a Communist?”
The out-of-the-blue remark was met by our stares. She continued, “Well, you will; and he will be a Communist.”
It was then that the husband unsuccessfully tried to change the subject; but she was on a roll and would have nothing of it. One of us asked, “It sounds like you know something we don’t know.”
“Yes, it is true. This is not some idle talk. He is already born, and he is educated and being groomed to be president right now. You will be impressed to know that he has gone to the best schools of presidents. He is what you call ‘Ivy League.’ You don’t believe me, but he is real and I even know his name. His name is Barack. His mother is white and American and his father is black from Africa. That’s right, a chocolate baby! And he’s going to be your president.”
She became more and more smug as she presented her stream of detailed knowledge and predictions so matter-of-factly – as though all were foregone conclusions. “It’s all been thought out. His father is not an American black, so he won’t have that social slave stigma. He is intelligent and he is half white and has been raised from the cradle to be an atheist and a Communist. He’s gone to the finest schools. He is being guided every step of the way and he will be irresistible to America.”
We sat there not knowing what to say. She was obviously very happy that the Communists were doing this and that it would somehow be a thumbing of their collective noses at America: They would give us a black president and he’d be a Communist to boot. She made it quite obvious that she thought that this was going to breathe new life into world Communism. From this and other conversations with her, she always asserted that Communism was far from dead.
She was full of little details about him that she was eager to relate. I thought that maybe she was trying to show off that this truly was a real person and not just hot air.
She rattled off a complete litany. He was from Hawaii. He went to school in California. He lived in Chicago. He was soon to be elected to the Legislature. “Have no doubt: he is one of us, a Soviet.”
At one point, she related some sort of San Francisco connection, but I didn’t understand what the point was and don’t recall much about that. I was just left with the notion that she considered the city to be some sort of a center for their activity here.
Since I had dabbled in languages, I knew a smattering of Arabic. I made a comment: “If I remember correctly, ‘Barack’ comes from the Arabic word for ‘Blessing.’ That seems to be an odd name for an American.” She replied quickly, “Yes. It is ‘African,’” she insisted, “and he will be a blessing for world Communism. We will regain our strength and become the number one power in the world.”
She continued with something to the effect that America was at the same time the great hope and the great obstacle for Communism. America would have to be converted to Communism, and Barack was going to pave the way.
So, what does this conversation from 1992 prove?
Well, it’s definitely anecdotal. It doesn’t prove that Obama has had Soviet Communist training nor that he was groomed to be the first black American president, but it does show one thing that I think is very important. It shows that Soviet Russian Communists knew of Barack from a very early date. It also shows that they truly believed among themselves that he was raised and groomed Communist to pave the way for their future. This report on Barack came personally to me from one of them long before America knew he existed.
Although I had never before heard of him, at the time of this conversation Obama was 30-plus years old and was obviously tested enough that he was their anticipated rising star.
There have been attempts to discredit Fife with made up details, but the original version of Fife’s story is posted online. Fife can be reached at: thefife@hotmail.com.
http:// www.worldnetdaily.com/ index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88439
and I’m sure Obama will GET pesky Moose and Squirrel!!!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 9:06 AM | Link to this
EXPAT: I wouldn’t talk to him either. He is a parody. I think Barry should make the invasion of the vatican a pre-requisite for talking with the Iranians. (that would make about as much since as the rest of the socialist drivel that falls out of his mouth!) Oh, Stella is swella!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this
EXPAT, I think you are on to something! His wife is such a hater of American ideas, and why wouldn’t his mother take money from Mother Russia? Barry is a deep plant! now we know why!
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 9:20 AM | Link to this
GtG -
“Barry is a deep plant!”
he’s an agave?
“I think Barry should make the invasion of the vatican a pre-requisite for talking with the Iranians.”
oooo … good. since I voted for Obama, do you think I could ask him to pillage a couple of items for me?? the Cistine ceiling would clash with our decor, but there are some beautiful statues that would look lovely in our garden … (that Michaelangelo guy, he could really do some damage with a hammer and chisel!)
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 10:32 AM | Link to this
Derivatives are not a zero-sum game, but a game in which the actual odds themselves follow long patterns of boom and bust. …
USinUK—Although the statement you “cherry-picked” from your link seems to contradict the general idea that derivative investment is essentially a zero-sum game, a closer reading of the article isn’t quite as clear. Here’s the full quote:
“Alas, that is not the whole story. Derivatives are not a zero-sum game, but a game in which the actual odds themselves follow long patterns of boom and bust. There are, for example, trillions of dollars of securities whose value derives from the housing market. Fast-talking lenders write an adjustable-rate, payment-optional mortgage contract for a slow-witted buyer. Then, they sell the contract on – whence it is packaged with thousands of others into a mortgage-backed security. This security is backed by a mortgage that is backed by a mortgage payer. Most of the time, especially during the long bull market in housing – roughly equating to the bull market in credit derivatives – payers are ready and able to pay. Sometimes they are not. When they are not, the security in mortgage-backed securities disappears”.
The situation described here is one in which the purchasers of the “mortgage-backed security” don’t have the ability to make the necessary payments to honor their contracts. Obviously, if the contract isn’t honored, then it is no longer a “zero-sum game”. The fact that the mortgage derivative market reached a point where defaults occurred doesn’t change the fundamental nature of the investment vehicle, however.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 10:50 AM | Link to this
He’s a deep plant EXPAT: His SS code name should “MR. Potato Head” not “Curious George”:-). I just want the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail, you can have anything else ramadangadingdong get from his pillage.
On a brighter note, Michelle “I am proud to be an American for the first time in my adult life” Obama is on the cover of Vogue. You know what they say about putting lipstick on a PIG! OHH!
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 10:50 AM | Link to this
He’s a deep plant EXPAT: His SS code name should “MR. Potato Head” not “Curious George”:-). I just want the Ark of the Covenant and the Holy Grail, you can have anything else ramadangadingdong get from his pillage.
On a brighter note, Michelle “I am proud to be an American for the first time in my adult life” Obama is on the cover of Vogue. You know what they say about putting lipstick on a PIG! OHH!
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 10:51 AM | Link to this
Though I was horrified by the Supreme Court’s order in 2000 to “stop counting the votes” — an event which led me to question everything I’d been brought up to believe about America — I did indeed think and feel to my very core that we were still “One Nation”
AW—If you are going to choose the 2000 US Supreme Court decision as the watershed moment in your life when you stopped trusting the system, could you at least report the facts of the matter in a fair way?? The votes in FL WERE counted, and Bush had more votes. Gore then attempted to ask for selected recounts which Judge Saul Sanders (a registered Democrat) in the Leon County Circuit Court ruled were illegal. This decision was subsequently upheld by the US Supreme Court after the Democratic-stacked Florida Supreme Court attempted to “legislate from the bench” by overturning Judge Sander’s ruling. Why upholding the law caused you to question everything you believed in about America is somewhat of a mystery to me, since that very same Supreme Court decision had the opposite effect on me—It restored my faith in the system since the election laws were upheld.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 11:00 AM | Link to this
On a local level, I stopped trusting the system several years ago when I found out that the police in the area where my business was located were on the take and chose to protect an illegal gambling establishment rather than protecting the legitimate businesses and citizens of the area.
Nationally, my faith in the system was shaken last year when Bush and Co. decided that it is a legitimate governmental function to acquire the assets of private companies. My faith was further eroded yesterday when Obama and Co. decided to print a trillion dollars.
By American Woman
February 12, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this
Bruno, the whole situation in Flordia stunk (and still does) to high heaven, IMO. If being the Sec. of State in charge of fair elections AND being the statewide chairperson of the “elect GW” committee (and promised a cushy position in the new administration by the governor/candidate’s brother) is not a conflict of interest, I don’t know what is. Believe what you want, as clearly, nothing anyone else ever says changes the mind of someone utterly convinced of the superiority of his own knowledge and the misguided-ness of everyone else’s.
I guess this just demonstrates that you and I are very different people with very different values, ideals, and perspectives. As such, why pretend to care what I think? (That’s rhetorical, BTW.) Hope you’re enjoying the weather. Have a nice day.
By david wayne osedach, san diego/ U.S.A.
February 12, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
Race and gender should definetely be given consideration. We need a Senate as diverse as our population.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 11:29 AM | Link to this
If being the Sec. of State in charge of fair elections AND being the statewide chairperson of the “elect GW” committee (and promised a cushy position in the new administration by the governor/candidate’s brother) is not a conflict of interest, I don’t know what is.
Very possibly, it WAS a conflict of interest, though not one that allowed Ms. Harris to change or circumvent the election laws in place prior to the election. I haven’t done any research into this point, but I would be surprised if she were the only person to ever hold this dual position.
As such, why pretend to care what I think?
If you know me at all, I don’t pretend.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 11:37 AM | Link to this
david wayne osedach, san diego/ U.S.A. Welcome! Now STFU with your ignorant comments. Diversity doesn’t equate to wisdom. Look at our very own Cythia McKinney, perhaps the stupidest person to run for public office, and she won again and again! Wisdom is what is needed by our Senate, not diversity! Now stay in San Diego until the mexicans diversivy you to somewhere else.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 11:39 AM | Link to this
Anyone else think Michelle Obama is as ugly as sin? She is just plain unatractive! Lipstick on a pig and all, even anne liebewitz can’t make her pretty.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this
FU’GLY isn’t a pretty word, but she brings it to mind. Kind of like Raghead, (Towelhead?) it’s ugly but it fits the people it is used to reference.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 11:45 AM | Link to this
Maybe she can get some dental work done now that she’s at the White House. I hope they have a good dentist!
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 11:53 AM | Link to this
I guess this just demonstrates that you and I are very different people with very different values, ideals, and perspectives.
Honestly, AW, I think that our biggest difference in values/perspective is that I primarily believe in the power/responsibility of individuals to run their own lives while you seem to focus on the fairness/unfairness of the system. Neither outlook is superior to the other, it is more of a ying-yang thing IMO.
For the record, there are a lot of things that I admire about you. Obviously you are an extremely intelligent and creative person. Although I don’t share your same political outlook, I admire the passion you feel for your views and the fact that you follow through by getting involved. I admire the fact that you are a dedicated mother who takes seriously your charge to prepare your child for the future. In my heart, I believe that you care deeply for your fellow travelers on this earth, especially for those who are down-trodden. Certainly it would be more comforting to me if we shared the same political outlook, but that doesn’t stop me from having respect for you as a human being.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 12:13 PM | Link to this
Bruno she cares for all except the unborn FESTUSes and Zygotes, she hates them and wants them all dead.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 12:23 PM | Link to this
Bruno she cares for all except the unborn FESTUSes and Zygotes, she hates them and wants them all dead.
As much as I dislike the idea (and reality) of an abortion, I understand the desperation many women (and girls) feel when they find themselves pregnant and don’t want to be. As such, I think abortion whould remain safe and legal, though I think we could do more as a society to promote long-term, responsible relationships among men and women so that a pregnancy would be a joyful event and not a calamity.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this
Am I the only one who pictures Gandalf sitting around in his Army fatigues tying on a good buzz while he types his insane blogs??
By Buzz Patrol
February 12, 2009 12:42 PM | Link to this
More like a good buzz gone bad.
By Mara
February 12, 2009 1:04 PM | Link to this
Am I the only one who pictures Gandalf sitting around in his Army fatigues tying on a good buzz while he types his insane blogs??
I always pictured more of a cross between Bill O’Reilly and Andrew Dice Clay. With maybe a little Bill McKinney from Deliverance thrown in for looks and style.
:^)
By Truth
February 12, 2009 1:10 PM | Link to this
There are a lot of opportunities out there. If you honestly open your mind and match your strengths with a path that will utilize those strengths, good things will happen. But more than anything else: if you are positive about that thing that you are going after, it can happen.
I’m leaving for the airport tonight. Interest in this internet business is getting scary. And the cool thing is that it is not sleazy or “marginally legal” or (for God’s sake) multi-level marketing. It is just a great marketing idea that has already paid off the loan I took out last week in order to make it happen.
This isn’t something that just anyone could do and I have had to hire some sales people because I can’t sell nuthin’, but everybody in this blog is smart enough and gifted enough to come up with their own version of this.
And the number one advantage of all this happening right now is that everybody is starving for business, so ideas that would not have been considered three years ago are now golden.
If my plan continues to work, this should become a perpetual money engine. I have been around millionaires my entire life and have always envied only one thing: the ability to take money out of the equation. Going on vacation? Money doesn’t determine where you go. You determine where you go. Want to buy your Mom a gift? Just get her what you think she needs whether it be a dvd player or a new house. It doesn’t matter. You just write the check. I’m a long way from that point, but for the first time, I can see it happening.
Before I start sounding too much like AMWAY, pardon me for being so excited about this, but things are happening so fast that I honestly can’t keep up with it all.
Sometimes a person hears an epiphany statement. Mine was the story about crabbing that a very nice Italian woman told me. her family would go crabbing when she was a little girl. They all had buckets and the would walk along the shore of Southern Italy and catch crabs with their bare hands. But before they would actually strike out, they would set the bucket down and walk out and grab two crabs. Why two crabs?
If they put one crab in the bucket, the crab would always climb out of the bucket. But if they put two crabs in the bucket, they would not need a lid. The crabs would never leave the bucket.
She said that her Dad would allways tell her: Even if you know the right path to go, it will not be your enemies that will prevent you from that path. It will be your friends and your family that will always be the people that will be pulling you back into that bucket.
I love my friends and my family, but at times, they are the people that are the most negative.
Go for your dreams guys. Use those sharp minds to figure out how to improve your lives. And everybody will tell you a million reasons why your ideas won’t work. That’s OK. Just don’t let the pull you back into the bucket.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
I always pictured more of a cross between Bill O’Reilly and Andrew Dice Clay. With maybe a little Bill McKinney from Deliverance thrown in for looks and style.
Too funny, Mara. Now I’m going to have “Dueling Banjos” playing in my head all day.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
Mara—Are there any celebrities that you resemble?? I’m thinking Gwyneth Paltrow, only prettier and with a bigger chest……
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 2:43 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I quit smokin’ pot in ‘83 when I left Hawaii, me and Barry used to blaze all the time back then! The Dice Man is a hero of mine so Thanks Mara! Bill O’Reilly didn’t beat the dog snot out of the senator from Minnesota so I hate him too. Never been confused with a Mountain man. Mara did you have to have your house resided with REAL GINGERBREAD? Bruno think more Margaret Hamilton for Mara, AW i see as Barbara Walters, Sunshine is a circa 1968 Goldie Hawn, and EXPAT is of course Barbara Eden.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 2:43 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I quit smokin’ pot in ‘83 when I left Hawaii, me and Barry used to blaze all the time back then! The Dice Man is a hero of mine so Thanks Mara! Bill O’Reilly didn’t beat the dog snot out of the senator from Minnesota so I hate him too. Never been confused with a Mountain man. Mara did you have to have your house resided with REAL GINGERBREAD? Bruno think more Margaret Hamilton for Mara, AW i see as Barbara Walters, Sunshine is a circa 1968 Goldie Hawn, and EXPAT is of course Barbara Eden.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 3:07 PM | Link to this
What happens to a liberal that gets a conservative thought? Do they melt away?
By Gandalf, the White!
February 12, 2009 3:07 PM | Link to this
What happens to a liberal that gets a conservative thought? Do they melt away?
By Truth
February 12, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this
Bruno, Gandalf
Barbara Eden? Goldie Hawn? Gwyneth Paltrow, only prettier and with a bigger chest……?
Showers.
Cold Showers.
Lots of cold showers.
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 3:37 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“Am I the only one who pictures Gandalf sitting around in his Army fatigues tying on a good buzz while he types his insane blogs??”
well, I hadn’t before now … thanks for planting that seed!
GtG -
“EXPAT is of course Barbara Eden.”
hahahaha … with or without bellybutton? (I make a dreadful looking blonde … )
although, I think this call “Sunshine is a circa 1968 Goldie Hawn” is inspired! that’s EXACTLY what I pictured!
I always pictured TOJ as Tim what’s-his-name from Tool Time.
Bruno, I picture as look more professorial (you should never have mentioned the actuarial exams).
Mara - for some reason, the name screams brunette, 5’5” - kinda Annette Benning-ish
AW - I haven’t quite got you or Frustrated figured out, yet …
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 3:57 PM | Link to this
EXPAT is of course Barbara Eden.” hahahaha … with or without bellybutton? (I make a dreadful looking blonde … )
I’m confused, USinUK—With your Scottish heritage and ultra-light skin, I would think that you are a strawberry blonde.
For AW, I’d have to go with Tina Fey, only prettier and with a much bigger chest.
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 4:03 PM | Link to this
GtG -
hey songbird man!! saw this in the WaPo and thought you might find it interesting:
Migratory songbirds wearing tiny “backpacks” consisting of a data chip encased in clear plastic have stripped away the mystery of their epic seasonal voyages between North and South America, revealing not only their routes and resting places but the remarkable speed at which they can travel.
http:// www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/12/AR2009021202139.html?hpid=topnews
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 4:11 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
“With your Scottish heritage and ultra-light skin, I would think that you are a strawberry blonde.”
you’re in the right neighborhood - just auburn, not blonde
AW as Tina Fey - interesting call!! (I’ll leave her chest to your imagination)
Gale … I see a cross between Christian Amanpour (who I’d watch report about toast) and Fiona Bruce from the BBC (you’ll have to google)
By lozen
February 12, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
Well, well whattayaknow? Just out of curiosity I’ve been watching aRielly and Hannity recently. My god; amazing how TOJ parrots those guys! The one who is always talking about how brainwashed liberals are is the one who agrees with every single thing those two men say on their shows. And Gandolf’s obsession with the way Michelle Obama looks??? Who cares what the woman looks like. What difference does it make? He thinks she’s ugly (and that his opinion matters to anybody)! A lot of people think she’s beautiful. Gandalf’s opinion about her means…well, absolutely NOthing! Nada. Zip.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
Here’s a tease for you, USinUK—you can see my picture on myspace by typing in my “handle” and my hometown. Let me know what you think…… ; > }
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
suppah-time …
new topic tomorrow!! woohoo!!!
have a good night :-)
By USinUK
February 12, 2009 4:12 PM | Link to this
suppah-time …
new topic tomorrow!! woohoo!!!
have a good night :-)
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 4:18 PM | Link to this
USinUK—PLEASE don’t tell me that you have taken on a faux British accent. A girl I dated in HS went to college in England, and came home with a full-blown British brogue. She even married a Limey like you! Come to think of it, she also had extremely light, translucent skin.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 4:48 PM | Link to this
Well, well whattayaknow? Just out of curiosity I’ve been watching aRielly and Hannity recently. My god; amazing how TOJ parrots those guys! The one who is always talking about how brainwashed liberals are is the one who agrees with every single thing those two men say on their shows. And Gandolf’s obsession with the way Michelle Obama looks??? Who cares what the woman looks like. What difference does it make? He thinks she’s ugly (and that his opinion matters to anybody)! A lot of people think she’s beautiful. Gandalf’s opinion about her means…well, absolutely NOthing! Nada. Zip
For lozen, I’m going with Granny on the Beverly Hillbillies, only not as pretty and with a smaller chest.
(Just teasing you, lozen)
By The Other jack
February 12, 2009 4:58 PM | Link to this
USinUk
I always pictured TOJ as Tim what’s-his-name from Tool Time.
Really close. Take away the hair, the height, lately the flat stomach and the handsome face and I am a dead ringer. I went running this morning so the flat stomach is coming back. I am trying to get taller, but it looks like I will never reach 6 ft. I am really close, but it just isn’t going to happen.
My ex always said that I was a cross between Tim Mcgraw, Bill Murry and Alfred E. Newman. Good luck with all that. If it is any consolation, I have had a lot of women say that i have really nice hands and arms. I don’t get it. Woman are weird.
Just closed the deal that I was flying out for so instead of a meeting tomorrow, looks like it will just be a trip for a party. That’s a very good thing.
Atlanta is becoming Atlanta in the Spring and there’s nothing better than that.
Buenos Aires to everybody. This is going to be a great weekend.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 5:09 PM | Link to this
Bruno think more Margaret Hamilton for Mara
The Wicked Witch of the West????? Too funny, Gandalf.
By Bruno
February 12, 2009 5:09 PM | Link to this
Bruno think more Margaret Hamilton for Mara
The Wicked Witch of the West????? Too funny, Gandalf.
By Gale
February 13, 2009 8:26 AM | Link to this
Wow, I had to look up those images, USinUK. Way off. But I think a lot of the image impressions have to do with presentation styles. As I have never seen them, I cannot say. I must say, though, I have not formed mental images of anyone here. I wonder what that says about me?
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 8:27 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“Really close. Take away the hair, the height, lately the flat stomach and the handsome face and I am a dead ringer.”
hey!!! I like this game!!! Other than the dark hair and eyes, and the gorgeous face and figure, I look EXACTLY like Penelope Cruz!! ;-)
actually, when I was in college, I used to have people tell me I looked like Meredith Baxter Birney all the time … I mean ALL the time (it was weird - especially since I’m not blonde).
“Atlanta is becoming Atlanta in the Spring and there’s nothing better than that.”
too early!!! all the daffs are going to bloom then there will be a late freeze … I la-la-LOVE Atlanta in the Spring (but, then, I don’t suffer from hay fever like my brother-man) … I’ll be there in March, so save a few dogwoods and azaeleas for me!!!
Bruno -
“PLEASE don’t tell me that you have taken on a faux British accent”
GAH!!! what do you take me for … Madonna??? I can’t even muster a “cheers”, much less the accent. (although, I have picked up a few colloquialims - like Bollocks! - because they’re just so perfect)
… and … speaking of Madonna … did you see that a nude photo of her sold for $37,500 at auction yesterday … that wasn’t you, TOJ, was it??? ;-)
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 8:36 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“But I think a lot of the image impressions have to do with presentation styles.”
absolutely - I think you’re spot-on
“I wonder what that says about me?”
it says you have better things to do! ;-)
By Gale
February 13, 2009 8:50 AM | Link to this
Penelope Cruz? Yum. Another meaningless exercise while we wait for the new topic. If you went to Hogwarts, what house would you be in? I would like to be a Griffendor, but I suspect I would be a Hufflepuff.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 9:00 AM | Link to this
Gale -
“Penelope Cruz? Yum.” she’d turn me (even if it was only for a weekend) - she’s GORGE! and she was FAB in Volver.
never read HP - only saw the first 2 movies - so I can’t say which house I’d be in - but I can say that I’d like his snowy owl as my familiar.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:10 AM | Link to this
actually, when I was in college, I used to have people tell me I looked like Meredith Baxter Birney all the time …
From the show “Family”?? Don’t be too upset by that comparison, USinUK—I thought that she was pretty hot in her own, wholesome way. On the other hand…..
speaking of Madonna … did you see that a nude photo of her sold for $37,500 at auction yesterday … that wasn’t you, TOJ, was it??? ;-)
I would likely pay $10,000 to NOT see any nude photos of her.
Penelope Cruz? Yum.
Gale—I’m glad to see you have excellent taste in women!!
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:14 AM | Link to this
Well, I’m glad this conversation finally became meaningful! I could discuss hot women all day!!
USinUK—What is your height?? I picture you around 5’ 6”. For some reason, Mara makes me think that she is 5’ 5”-5’ 6” as well. I typically prefer tall women, though my current GF is barely 5’ tall.
P.S. Did you think my myspace photo was cute?
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:17 AM | Link to this
Just so you don’t think that I’m TOO shallow, I actually find intellect to be the biggest turn-on. When Mara mentioned that she had read “A Brief History of Time”, I can’t tell you how hot I got.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 9:25 AM | Link to this
Bruno -
“USinUK—What is your height?? I picture you around 5’ 6”. For some reason, Mara makes me think that she is 5’ 5”-5’ 6” as well. I typically prefer tall women, though my current GF is barely 5’ tall.”
below 5’??? that’s a shetland person you’re dating!!
I’m closer to 5’4” - would love to be 5’6”, if only so that I didn’t have to have all of my new trousers hemmed.
“P.S. Did you think my myspace photo was cute?”
I didn’t myspace you - will do so tonight! I, however, am a luddite - no myspace, facebook or anything like that.
It’s funny - there are only 2 guys other than my husband that I have ever loved (I’m talking head-over-heels) - both of them were over 6’. I love that my hub is around 5’10” - I wear heels and I feel like we’re eye-to-eye. even without heels, there’s no straining my neck (and his back) for a smooch. I think overly tall is way over-rated.
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 9:29 AM | Link to this
USinUK
… and … speaking of Madonna … did you see that a nude photo of her sold for $37,500 at auction yesterday … that wasn’t you, TOJ, was it??? ;-)
I don’t know. If it was sold last night, i may have. I don’t remember anything. When I got to the hotel, the people I was supposed to meet with met me in the hotel bar. We went to a lot of places … I just can’t drink like that any more.
Are you sure it was Madonna and not a diseased man with really bad breast implants? I can’t tell them apart with their clothes on, I’m sure she looks the same naked.
You are the Family Ties woman? That’s not bad. Better than Alfred E. Newman. I do have straight teeth, unlike Alfred. I like the Tim McGraw comparison. Now if I can just convince Faith Hill.
I wasn’t even feeling bad until you started making me think about a naked Madonna. So much for breakfast. I’m in Texas, so this is still a little early. We are supposed to go up to some guy’s house on a lake this afternoon.
I need a cup of coffee.
By Gale
February 13, 2009 9:33 AM | Link to this
Hi Bruno. I always find it amusing that the women I am turned on by, and those of my partner, are so not us. Know what I mean?
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 9:36 AM | Link to this
Bruno -
“I would likely pay $10,000 to NOT see any nude photos of her.”
HA!!! true THAT!
“When Mara mentioned that she had read “A Brief History of Time”, I can’t tell you how hot I got”
please, don’t. ;-)
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:38 AM | Link to this
I didn’t myspace you - will do so tonight! I, however, am a luddite - no myspace, facebook or anything like that.
Same for me. I created an account strictly to communicate with some of the local musicians. Michael Allman (Greg Allman’s son)posted a few photos of me on his myspace account also, including a photo of my tattoos. Since there are a lot of Brunos on myspace, you’ll have to do a refined search using my hometown.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 9:42 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
people drinking heavily in TX???? SURELY you jest! (… no, you’re not kidding, and stop calling you shirley…) Where are you?? Anywhere near Austin??? Please have some extra tex-mex for me!!!
“Are you sure it was Madonna and not a diseased man with really bad breast implants?”
I’m sayin! she doesn’t look “rode hard and put up wet” - she just looks rode hard. period. hard hair. hard makeup. no body fat. still trying to be a 20-year-old. not only is it not working, it’s actually kinda gross.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:46 AM | Link to this
below 5’??? that’s a shetland person you’re dating!!
I do feel like a pervert when I hug her because she is so tiny. What’s funny to me is that I pretty much have dated only tall blondes in the past, and never felt overly attracted to dark skinned women. Now all I notice are the black and latino women.
Hi Bruno. I always find it amusing that the women I am turned on by, and those of my partner, are so not us. Know what I mean?
I’m sure that both of you are beautiful in your own way.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 9:53 AM | Link to this
please, don’t. ;-)
At the risk of creeping her out, I think that Mara is the person I would most like to date here on W2W. Too bad she’s married, although her hubby sounds like a cool guy, sarcoidosis and all!
Of course, I think that you are a great catch as well, USinUK, but I think we would end up arguing too much. Ditto for AW. I’m guessing that Monica is a hottie as well. As far as a pure friendship, I think I would get along well with Gale.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 9:57 AM | Link to this
Bruno -
“Of course, I think that you are a great catch as well, USinUK, but I think we would end up arguing too much”
… well, if you’d just stop fighting it and accept everything I say as gospel, we’d get along fine!!!
(I keep saying that to the Mister … he doesn’t follow that advice, either)
By Gandalf, the White!
February 13, 2009 10:03 AM | Link to this
Gale, I left you out! I see you as a sexier Ellen D.(oh, and a better dancer!), I loved her as Dory, that role brought me into the Ellen is cool camp.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:06 AM | Link to this
well, if you’d just stop fighting it and accept everything I say as gospel, we’d get along fine!!!
You stubborn Scot, you!! You also probably wouldn’t like my gambling habits either, even though I’m way ahead in poker. Lately, I’ve been unstoppable, winning 3 of the last 6 tourneys I entered. Nothing is more satisfying than bluffing someone out of a big pot—that is other than suckering them into trying to steal a big pot from me when I’m sitting on the nuts.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this
Gale, I left you out! I see you as a sexier Ellen D.(oh, and a better dancer!), I loved her as Dory, that role brought me into the Ellen is cool camp.
I’m with you re: Ellen DeGeneres, Gandalf. Tell me your thoughts on Rosie…
By Gandalf, the White!
February 13, 2009 10:14 AM | Link to this
Gale, not Slitherin! Me and my 8 year old are reading HP together and last night we read the sorting hat chapter! Hufflepuff values hard work, loyalty, tolerance, and fair play, so it’s a good house, they just don’t win the cup too often. I of course would be a Gryffindor, as would TOJ. Bruno and EXPAT: would probable be Ravenclaw who value intelligence, creativity, wit, and wisdom. AW, That eldest of 8th graders and would be Slytherin. Not sure about Sunshine, any one got that figured out?
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 10:19 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m sayin! she doesn’t look “rode hard and put up wet” - she just looks rode hard. period. hard hair. hard makeup. no body fat. still trying to be a 20-year-old. not only is it not working, it’s actually kinda gross.
PLEASE!!! I was almost ready to try to order some breakfast No more Madonna, and yes, she is gross.
The Room coffee isn’t bad. I’m in Dallas. I may be flying back in a Beech Baron. That will take a while, but I love small high performance twin engine planes. They insisted that I buy a one way plane ticket. I may look into riding a train back to Atlanta. i’m just going to need to take it really easy on the drinking. I was hammered after two drinks last night. I just don’t drink like that anymore.
Let’s see, I always thought of Mara as a spunky dark haired woman, maybe a little like Elaine on Sienfeld. Someone said that Sunshine was Goldie. I have always thought of her as more of a Febe on Friends. Gale? All gay women that I haven’t met look like Ellen. Strangely enough, I have always pictured you as someone who looks a lot like the woman on Family Ties. I really don’t think of people as movie stars, but I do create a picture of everyone.
Just switched on the news. God Bless the families of the folks that died in Buffalo last night. Looks like I was landing when they were crashing. One woman that died had lost her husband on 9-11 in the WTC. I have flown several times on a Bombadier Q400. I think that is a fairly new model.
By Gale
February 13, 2009 10:22 AM | Link to this
“I think I would get along well with Gale.” Thanks Bruno. From the frequency with which we agree, and the gentleness (generally) with which we disagree, I agree.
Gandalf, I love the comparison. I wish I could be as funny as Ellen. Dory was a perfect role for her.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 13, 2009 10:27 AM | Link to this
Bruno! “ROSIE you’re all right, you wear my ring, when I turn out the lights, baby that’s my thing”… ooops, wrong Rosie! (special thanks to Jackson Brown). Rosie ODonnell? Let’s see? Where do I begin? She played a good role in Nip/Tuck, she has a website, and Barbara Walters actually fired her. I think even you people don’t want to know how I really feel. Let’s just say, we have a difference of opinion? That’s it! Mom said if can’t say anything nice….
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:27 AM | Link to this
Let’s see, I always thought of Mara as a spunky dark haired woman, maybe a little like Elaine on Sienfeld.
I’m pretty sure that Mara indicated that she is a blonde.
Where are you today, Mara?? Everyone is talking about you!! Your fan club awaits!!
By Gale
February 13, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
Never watched Family Ties, TOJ. I am more likely to grab an image of an actor playing apart for an image than a real life image.
We are all influenced by what we see. I just read a battle scene in a sci-fi book that incorporated the end of the battle scene in Branaugh’s Henry V where the soldiers are all singing. The writer even used the same song.
By Mara
February 13, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
Gandalf - Bruno think more Margaret Hamilton for Mara
LOL! OUCH! GtW compares me to Maggie Hamilton. I’m absolutely crushed! CRUSHED! Being compared with the actress who pplayed one of the most famous villians of all time?! How horrible. A successful, intelligent, creative woman who had the opportunity to work with Cagney, Tracy and Hepburn, Mae West, and WC Feild? A member of the Human Society and Animal Rescue? Egad! LOL! Yes, I’ve feel sooooo insulted…HAHAHA!!
USinUK - I don’t know about Annette Benning. I’m more Rene Zellweger (ala Jerry McGuire, not Bridget Jones). And, to paraphrase Babe Bennett (from Mr. Deeds)- “I have green eyes and I don’t know what my natural hair colour is anymore.” LOL! I’m kinda light blondie brown right now.
Bruno - When Mara mentioned that she had read “A Brief History of Time”, I can’t tell you how hot I got. - and - At the risk of creeping her out, I think that Mara is the person I would most like to date here on W2W.
awww. Thanks Bruno. That’s sweet.
I don’t know that I could name who I think any of you folks look like. LOL! I have a general image, of course, but that’s not to say that I could NAME any of the actual people.
I have to admit that I am terrible, TERRIBLE with names. And faces. The Mr. can recognize people he saw once, two years ago. Me? I can barely remember someone I met two DAYS ago. (Though I do have an amazing (and useless) ability to remember characters and scenes from television shows…and song lyrics)
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this
special thanks to Jackson Brown
Right on, Gandalf! Even though he is a pinko commie, I’ve always liked Jackson Browne. If we’re singing about Rosie, don’t forget the Boss either. I gotta say, though, that I was somewhat disappointed by Springsteen’s Superbowl performance. He’s nothing like he was in the 70s and 80s. I also didn’t care for his song selections—10th Ave. Freezeout??? I would have liked to see him play “She’s the One” or “Thunder Road” instead.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:45 AM | Link to this
This one is dedicated to USinUK:
Hey little girl is your daddy home Did he go away and leave you all alone I got a bad desire Im on fire
Tell me now baby is he good to you Can he do to you the things that I do I can take you higher Im on fire
Sometimes its like someone took a knife baby Edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley Through the middle of my soul
At night I wake up with the sheets soaking wet And a freight train running through the Middle of my head Only you can cool my desire Im on fire
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 10:45 AM | Link to this
Gale
I was unclear. (sort of like how I feel this morning) You look like Ellen. USinUK looks like the Family ties woman.
Bruno
Mara is a blond? Man, I really missed that one.
ohhh. Obama just started a speech with consoling the friends and family of the victims in Buffalo. Media training, Barrack. I’m sure he meant well, but his tone was waaay too matter of fact. He seemed like he was trying to get that out of the way before he started speaking. He’ll figure it out.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 10:49 AM | Link to this
And here is my song for me and TOJ:
Woke up this morning the house was cold
Checked the furnace she wasn’t burnin’
Went out and hopped my old Ford
Hit the engine but she ain’t turnin’. We’ve given each other some hard lessons lately
But we ain’t learnin’
We’re the same sad story that’s a fact
One step up and two steps back.
Bird on a wire outside my motel room but he ain’t singin’
Girl in white outside a church in June
But the church bells they ain’t nngln . I’m sitting here in this bar tonight but all I’m thinkin’ is: I’m the same old story same old act
One step up and two steps back.
It’s the same thing night on night
Who’s wrong baby who’s right? Another fight and I slam the door on Another battle in our dirty little war. When I look at myself I don’t see the man I wanted to be
Somewhere along the line I slipped off track
I’m caught movin’ one step up and two steps back.
There’s a girl across the bar
I get the message she’s sendin’
Mmm she ain’t lookin’ too married and me
honey I’m pretending. Last night I dreamed I held you in my arms
the music was never ending
We danced as the evening sky faded to black
One step up and two steps back
One step up and two steps back
One step up and two steps back.
By Gale
February 13, 2009 10:50 AM | Link to this
It’s an aquarian thing, Mara.
By American Woman
February 13, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this
Since we have no new topic yet, I supposed I’ll finally answer this one: I think governors should strive to select replacement senators that are closely aligned with the senators they are replacing. By closely aligned, I don’t mean simply the D or R factor, but in experience, voting history, causes, etc., as well as the type of people in the state they represent. (For example, if Saxby croaks, the governor should appoint one equally as in-the-deep-pockets of lobbyists, and utterly obtuse and unconcerned about the average working Georgian’s needs.) It’s only right that the people get what they deserve, which is what they voted for. That being said, I think the appoinment should last no longer than six or eight months, until a new election can be held.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this
And here is my song for me and TOJ
OOps, hope that didn’t come out wrong, TOJ—I meant the song was for us as individuals, not as a “couple”.
BTW, I used to work in a clinic at the corner of Flat Shoals and May Ave in East Atlanta. If you think the crime is bad in that area now, you should have been there in the 80s.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this
TOJ and Bruno -
Jackson Brown - how can anyone not like that voice!! he’s another one of those people that you just HAVE to crank in the car and sing with at the top of your lungs. no matter how much fun your Significant Other pokes fun of you.
Bruce - he’s someone I like, but am not completely insane about. he’s definitely got some mad talent and I hear he puts on a killer show.
whooaaa- oooaaah- oooaaah, I’m on fire.
I’ve been listening to a lot of Elvis Costello lately - been pulling out all his pre-Spike stuff … dang, that guy has got some serious talent. I was a little disappointed by his show, Spectacle, though. It was good, but I thought it would have been better. I was shocked at what a complete horse’s patoot Stewart Copeland turned out to be.
TOJ - room coffee always sucks. if not now, in about 30 minutes when you get the aftertaste. blech.
By Frustrated
February 13, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
Wow….everyone is getting all lovey dovey on here today…. :)
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 11:12 AM | Link to this
Bruno
Funny thing, the saddest song i have ever heard was the day after the ex and the kids had left me alone in that big old house, i turned on the Today Show and they had the guy on it that had written the old classic called You are my Sunshine.
You are My Sunshine.
My only Sunshine.
You make me happy when skies are grey
You’ll never know dear, how much I love you.
Please don’t take my sunshine away.
I love old torch songs. it seemed like people were just absolutely crazy in love in those songs, like At Last, by Etta James. Till There Was You. Someone to Watch Over Me. I Only Have Eyes For You.
It seemed like music has lost a lot of passion in the last few years,
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:12 AM | Link to this
The Mr. can recognize people he saw once, two years ago.
Must be a Virgo thing, I’m the same way.
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 11:14 AM | Link to this
brino
it can be a song for me and you, but I draw the line at dancing with you.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:23 AM | Link to this
I Only Have Eyes For You.
Great song by The Flamingos, TOJ. I saw them on a PBS oldies show a few years ago, and they still had it. The lead singer really knows how to work the crowd, differently from the newer artists today.
the saddest song i have ever heard was the day after the ex and the kids had left me alone in that big old house
After my divorce, I used to play Al Green’s “I’m Still In Love WIth You” over and over. I still can’t hear that song today without tears coming to my eyes.
it can be a song for me and you, but I draw the line at dancing with you
LOL. No problem, bro.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
“It seemed like music has lost a lot of passion in the last few years”
you mean Sexy Back doesn’t do it for you???
first of all, the BEST (and, yes I’m willing to go to the mattresses over this one) - BEST Version of You Are My Sunshine was recorded by Ray Charles. If you’ve never heard it, run, do not walk, to iTunes and get ya some.
secondly, At Last is sublime … as is I Didn’t Know What Time it Was … and La Mer (Somewhere Beyond the Sea) … they just don’t write unabashedly romantic, orchestrated songs anymore.
By Frustrated
February 13, 2009 11:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ,
At last—-by Etta James…..song I played for my first dance at the wedding. We dated for 7 years before we were married…..so I felt it was appropriate…
I think it is funny how some songs just speak to you…like the person who wrote it was in the exact same place in their life….
Who knows…. Now I want to shut my door and start dancing around to some Prince…..or belt out some Aretha….or maybe sob to “Wild Horses”…..hmmmm….too many decisions…
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:30 AM | Link to this
Wow….everyone is getting all lovey dovey on here today…. :)
Well, jump right in, babe. The water is great.
Here’s a nice song for you, Faithful:
There’s nothing you can do that can’t be done. Nothing you can sing that can’t be sung. Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game. It’s easy.
Nothing you can make that can’t be made. No one you can save that can’t be saved. Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time. It’s easy.
Nothing you can know that isn’t known. Nothing you can see that isn’t shown. Nowhere you can be that isn’t where you’re meant to be. It’s easy.
All you need is love. All you need is love. All you need is love, love. Love is all you need.
By Gale
February 13, 2009 11:31 AM | Link to this
My virgo is like that too. Frustrated, we are just saving up the fury for a new topic. Stay tuned.
By USinUK
February 13, 2009 11:33 AM | Link to this
new topic up … see ya there!
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:34 AM | Link to this
Gotta run for a while—Thanks to all for the good spirits today:
Janey said “Hey little brother don’t you think it’s time now we go” So we closed our eyes and said goodbye to gypsy angel row felt just right Together we moved like spirits in the night (all night) all night (all night)
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 11:34 AM | Link to this
USinUK
One story and I have to jump in the shower.
We had a barbershop quartet in high school. We were almost expelled for singing at the top of our voices:
Nothing could be finer than to be in her v_ in the morning.
Nothing could be sweeter than to have her s_ my p_ in the morning.
We were in the music department practice room when a friend burst through the door and said that the principal was on the way. No sense of humor. We later heard that most of the entire school enjoyed our little concert. I didn’t think we were that loud.
I’m outta here.
Buena La Taco, el Cuba La Gooding
By Gale
February 13, 2009 11:36 AM | Link to this
OK, She must be Crazy for me, by Melissa Etheridge. I admit it, I am not a romantic.
By Mara
February 13, 2009 11:40 AM | Link to this
okay, this is slow going because I have to think of the character then google the show to find out the actor/actress name…
Bruno - Jeff Goldblum (Lost World).
lozen - Sherilyn Fenn (Sasha from Gilmore Girls)
USinUK - Allison Janney (West Wing)
Gale - Lauren Holly (NCIS)
Sunshine - (sorry, all I can picture is a pregnant Salma Hayek)
American Woman - Ally Sheedy (Breakfast Club)
wheew! This’s tough! Hope I didn’t forget anyone…
oh, and chuck makes me think of Pat Skipper (Charmed: Morality Bites)
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 11:40 AM | Link to this
USinUk
BEST Version of You Are My Sunshine was recorded by Ray Charles. If you’ve never heard it, run, do not walk, to iTunes and get ya some.
Oh please. Remember who you are talkiing to. Anthology track number 18. If Ray or Aretha sang it, i’ve got it.
Somewhere beyond the Sea. That’s the only song that I have insisted on singing in every band I have ever been in. I have never gotten anything but great reactions to that song.
I gotta go.
By Bruno
February 13, 2009 11:44 AM | Link to this
And here’s a song for everyone, especially the “hens”:
Today you looked around to my heart’s call This tiny life ain’t been strangled after all Time, time, time, time Never ask what’s become of us Just dedicate your sorrow Here and now To the soul of the sea And me
Rushin’ to me You turned around to my song’s call You dreamer in the sand Just lie there laughing til the fall Kindest lover I can’t stay alone tonight Bring me all your love Here and now Come rushin’ to me
Wake up late Without a smile Telephone rings You run like a child On the street Into the day The people I meet Have nothing to say
No smile No sorrow No laughter No tomorrow They talk hen to hen They talk about their men And practice all the tricks for them Too soon nightime’s coming on Deep in the darkness feeling alone
No rain No seed No dreams No silence Far away today Mama ocean hold me to you Rock me on your waves And tell me… Is it all true?
Time, time, time, time Never ask what’s become of us Dedicate your sorrow Here and now To the soul the sea and me
By Gandalf, the White!
February 13, 2009 11:54 AM | Link to this
Here is a song for EXPAT:
Oh it’s so funny to be seeing you after so long, girl. And with the way you look I understand that you were not impressed. But I heard you let that little friend of mine take off your party dress. I’m not going to get too sentimental like those other sticker valentines, ‘cause I don’t know if you are loving some body. I only know it isn’t mine.
Alison, I know this world is killing you. Oh, Alison, my aim is true.
Well I see you’ve got a husband now. Did he leave your pretty fingers lying in the wedding cake? You used to hold him right in your hand. Bet he took all he could take. Sometimes I wish that I could stop you from talking when I hear the silly things that you say. I think somebody better put out the big light, ‘cause I can’t stand to see you this way.
Alison, I know this world is killing you. Oh, Alison, my aim is true. My aim is true.
By Gandalf, the White!
February 13, 2009 11:55 AM | Link to this
A song for TOJ on the ROAD: Well, I had the carburetor, baby, cleaned and checked with her line blown out she’s hummin’ like a turbojet Propped her up in the backyard on concrete blocks for a new clutch plate and a new set of shocks Took her down to the carwash, check the plugs and points Well, I’m goin’ out tonight. I’m gonna rock that joint
Early north Jersey industrial skyline I’m a all-set cobra jet creepin’ through the nighttime Gotta find a gas station, gotta find a payphone this turnpike sure is spooky at night when you’re all alone Gotta hit the gas, baby. I’m running late, this New Jersey in the mornin’ like a lunar landscape
Now, the boss don’t dig me, so he put me on the nightshift It’s an all night run to get back to where my baby lives In the wee wee hours your mind gets hazy radio relay towers, won’t you lead me to my baby? Underneath the overpass, trooper hits his party light switch Goodnight good luck one two power shift
I met Wanda when she was employed behind the counter at route 60 Bob’s Big Boy Fried Chicken on the front seat, she’s sittin’ in my lap We’re wipin’ our fingers on a Texaco roadmap I remember Wanda up on scrap metal hill with them big brown eyes that make your heart stand still
Well, at five a.m., oil pressure’s sinkin’ fast I make a pit stop, wipe the windshield, check the gas Gotta call my baby on the telephone Let her know that her daddy’s comin’ on home Sit tight, little mama, I’m comin’ ‘round I got three more hours, but I’m coverin’ ground
Your eyes get itchy in the wee wee hours sun’s just a red ball risin’ over them refinery towers Radio’s jammed up with gospel stations lost souls callin’ long distance salvation Hey, mister deejay, woncha hear my last prayer hey, ho, rock’n’roll, deliver me from nowhere
By The Other jack
February 13, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this
Wow. These fancy hotels are really nice until they think you are about to go past the check out time. I just had a housekeeper walk into the bathroom while I was taking a shower.
USinUK
There’s actually two songs that I try to always sing. The other is Queen of Hearts by Greg Almond. it’s just hard to find players who can play those songs. Queen of hearts is a really complicated circle of fourths in C minor (Cm7, F, Bbmaj7, Abmaj7, Am7, D, Gm7, back to Cm7) and there is a jazz breakdown in the middle that goes into an 11/8 time signature. Not 6/8, but 11/8 which is basically an alternating 5/8 and 6/8. I really miss playing. Maybe if this internet thing works, i can retire, move to St. Croix and put together a little band to play in local bars. That would be a great retirement.
Have a good weekend.