AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > December > 05 > Entry
Is it a good thing many troubled couples can’t afford divorce?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
The number of couples who can’t afford to get divorced has been one positive aspect of this tumultuous economic downturn. Articles abound on troubled couples who can’t see a way to finalize a split right now. In a strapped economy it seem impossible to suddenly support two households instead of one — especially if the couple’s house has declined in value and wouldn’t provide much of a cash cushion once it is sold. Not to mention the reality that, as described in a 2006 Journal of Sociology study, divorcing couples usually lose about three-quarters of their net worth anyway.
For all those reasons, the latest survey by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers (AAML) found that by nearly two to one, their members are seeing a national decline in the number of divorces, instead of the increases that sometimes accompany recessions. In places like Michigan, where the unemployment rate has greatly exceeded the national average for years, divorce rates have been consistently decreasing. And the trend extends beyond America. The U.K.’s Office for National Statistics reports a decrease in divorces to levels not seen since 1981.
Some observers might think it is heartless to see a silver lining in this reality, worrying that it will merely prolong the suffering of already suffering individuals. That is a legitimate concern for some, especially the small percent of marriages that are abusive — but various studies show that those individuals are more likely to seek divorce anyway. For the majority, a nationally representative 2002 study by the Institute for American Values found that most couples hugely benefit when they can’t or won’t divorce. In the study, two out of three unhappy couples that stayed together described themselves as happily married five years later. More significant, the report noted, “The most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds.” Further, those who did divorce did not, on average, become happier.
It is ironic that financial woes — which often cause marital strife — may in fact prevent couples from taking the ultimate step of severing their marriage entirely. And in the end, it is heartening to know that, statistically, many of them — and their children — will look back on this difficult economic period with gratitude.
Rebuttal
My colleague’s silver-lining scenario sounds like a Hallmark movie. Let’s call it Recession Romance. Our chick flick in a nutshell? Things go from bad to worse for an unhappily married couple when they lose their jobs, lose their house, and have to move into a lousy apartment in a bad neighborhood. All’s well that ends well, however, as the recession plays Cupid, forcing the couple to stay together in their dangerous, dilapidated hovel until they fall back in love.
Lights up, folks. As a child of divorce who is still thrilled after 20 years to find herself in a stable and thriving relationship, I’m all for taking marriage seriously. Yet I’m pretty sure that rampant job loss, rising medical costs and a housing crisis don’t make a bad marriage better, and I’m more than a little worried about what’s happening in those disharmonious homes. A small percentage of marriages involve abuse, and those women tend to seek divorce anyway? Hardly. I recall from my marriage and family therapy training how difficult it is for victims of spousal abuse to jump ship, even in the best of times. And in times like these? The National Domestic Abuse Hotline reported a 21 percent increase in calls for September. “Our people make notes of what’s said during the calls,” spokeswoman Retha Fielding told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “They tell us more women are talking about money problems in relation to the violence.”
Kiersten Stewart, director of Public Policy for the Family Violence Prevention Fund, confirmed for me this grim correlation: “Many women make the decision that being in an abusive relationship is better than homelessness,” she explained. “In times like these, there are many more women having to make that agonizing choice.”
I’m sure Shaunti would agree that abused women shouldn’t remain in untenable situations. Yet I think it’s important to remind ourselves just how bad things can get. Stewart informed me that, on average, three women in this country lose their lives every day through a current or former “intimate partner.” That’s why the increase in domestic violence this year makes it hard for me to see anything positive in forced domesticity.
Women who can’t afford to flee to safety? They’re the stars of a pretty grim picture, with no happy ending in sight.
Comments
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
dang, Shaunti … you’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel if you want to put this week’s issue in the “win” column.
so the economic downturn (as of today, 1.91 million jobs lost), is reducing the divorce rate. let’s take a look at the things that the resulting economic stress increases:
alcohol and drug abuse
child abuse and neglect
spouse abuse (as cited by Andy)
homelessness
yep, Shaunti, you just go ahead and cheer that more people are staying together … because all families are just like the Cratchetts and the Waltons. we just needed a little economic crisis to make us realize it.
(I’m sorry, but I think that just overloaded the snark-o-meter)
By Mara
December 5, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
Hey, I’m FIRST! Yay! :^)
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Speaking of the economy … to give additional insight into today’s horrendous non-farm payroll report …
Employment fell by 533K … but that’s the number of people “inside the labor force”, the number of people still looking for work.
The number of people considered “outside the labor force” rose by 637K - these are people who aren’t looking for work. That could be women who have decided to stay home and save money by pulling the kid from daycare. It could be the person who has been out of work for months and is in a city/town where there are no jobs to be had.
Additionally, the number of people who lost their full-time job and took a part-time gig rose by 621K last month. They’re not included in the unemployment numbers, but, let’s be honest - they’re going to be struggling as their pay and their benefits will be greatly reduced.
This can’t be reiterated enough … this is the worst jobs report since 1974 - and, with all these folks losing jobs, the economy is only going to get worse.
Like I said at the end of the last board … this isn’t the same as the Great Depression, but it’s going to be a VERY close second.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
Mara -
:-P
HA!
By lovelyliz
December 5, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
It’s not marriage that makes for better parents, better families. It’s good, stable adults who are in a loving and committed relationship creating a family home environment in which their children can flourish.
If things aren’t going right, fix them. Go see a couselor. The marriage may not be broke, just in need of repair. If things won’t get better while you are married, staying together won’t make things right.
Miserable people caught up in a miserable and even abusive marriage who don’t divorce because they can’t will create some really screwed up kids.
By lovelyliz
December 5, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
Just ask the children of parents who fight all the time just how stable the marriage is.
Just ask the children or parents who are abusive and abused just how stable the marriage is.
Just ask the children of parents who are room-mate living in the same house but just barely how stable the marriage is.
By k
December 5, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
QUESTION: How many of you would vote for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw the unholy practice of divorce? You know, to forever ban the right of the married subset of citizens to exercise self-determination, based on the belief of practioners of organized religion that it’s um, “wrong?”
EQUALITY!!
Chuck, I apologized to you on yesterday’s page.
By Mara
December 5, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
USinUK - Dang it! And I was so proud! LOL…
k - How many of you would vote for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw the unholy practice of divorce?
don’t know if you meant this “tongue in cheek”, but…no, i would most certainly not support such a thing. Also, such an amendment would probably contradict existing Constitutional law which defines the First Amendment “right of free assembly” to include the right to associate (or NOT associate) with whomever one chose.
By scrappy
December 5, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
K - I wouldn’t go around giving people in this red state ideas like that, the next thing ya know we will be voting on it, and it will become fact.
By YaThink
December 5, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
*don’t know if you meant this “tongue in cheek”, *
Ya think?
By lovelyliz
December 5, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
By k
QUESTION: How many of you would vote for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw the unholy practice of divorce? You know, to forever ban the right of the married subset of citizens to exercise self-determination, based on the belief of practioners of organized religion that it’s um, “wrong?”
You’ll get no argument from me. I’v always found irony in the fact that those who are so adamant about protecting traditional marriage from the gays and liberals have not proposed a ban on divorce.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
You’ll get no argument from me. I’v always found irony in the fact that those who are so adamant about protecting traditional marriage from the gays and liberals have not proposed a ban on divorce.
although, there were murmurings a few years ago about passing a law in the state to allow (not require, just allow) “covenant marriages”. If you get hitched to someone as part of a covenant marriage, the only way you can divorce is by cause (abuse or adultery)
Louisiana, Arkansas and Arizona have covenant marriage laws on their books.
By k
December 5, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this
Sorry, don’t really want that amendment to be put forth for a vote, but I believe if it were, it would demonstrate the utter hypocisy of the organized religio-fundies who think everybody else’s private business is somehow their concern.
If you haven’t seen it all over cable TV, you can go to YouTube and type in “prop 8 musical” for a melodious lyrical breakdown of this hypocrisy. (Once again, for any Christians who are offended by the strong words I’ve used: NOT dissing Christ, who’s pretty cool in my book. Dissing his so-called followers who use His name to oppress others.) Shrimp cocktail, anyone?
By Frustrated
December 5, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
K-
You know, to forever ban the right of the married subset of citizens to exercise self-determination, based on the belief of practioners of organized religion that it’s um, “wrong?”
I haven’t done research in ALL religions, but in the Bible, there are reasons in which God will grant “permission for divorce”.. It is not something encouraged, God said he hated divorce (Book of Malachi) but marital Unfaithfulness and when an unbelieving spouse divorces a believer are two examples that God gives “exceptions” to…I don’t think it directly lays it out in words, but abuse is another exception that a lot of people feel gives reason for divorce.
But that isn’t to say that God wants that…marriage should be a lifetime commitment..but we are all sinners and He knows we are going to make mistakes.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Women who can’t afford to flee to safety? They’re the stars of a pretty grim picture, with no happy ending in sight.
There seems to be a strong disconnect between the positions of Shaunti and Andrea this week. Shaunti states (without proof) that only a small percentage of marriages include significant physical abuse. Andrea, on the other hand, bases her entire column (again without proof) on the premise that a much higher percentage of marriages include spousal abuse.
I do agree with Shaunti that people should make every effort to stay together, especially when children are involved. In my own life experience, however, I have found that most women don’t want to be divorced, and will stay in a bad situation even when their friends and family members urge them to leave.
By Frustrated
December 5, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
Totally off topic….
It is the time of season once again when hands are stretched open for help in a lot of people’s time of need. I went to the store earlier and the ever so faint bell was ringing in the distance to call for donations for a needy home this Christmas…
I was thinking about it when I got in my car to leave and couldn’t help but wonder, especially with the news posted earlier about the jobless….Why is it that we are SOOOOOOOO in tune to helping other countries before our own? Why do people look elsewhere first to adopt a child instead of starting their search here?
Am I wrong to think of it this way? I am thankful that there are people out there willing to do what they have to in order to make someone’s holiday a little better….but why are there tons of commercials about helping children overseas?
I sound like I am against helping foreign countries,please don’t read it that way,I am not!!!… I just wonder why you see more ads for help for countries other than our own…. The children of the families being laid off, they deserve to have their wish granted too…
I was at Children’s Healthcare this week…my child had surgery….and my heart grew extremely heavy for those who have to go through severe illnesses and are sitting on the edge of their seat every moment of the day..it really must be a terrible feeling, one that I don’t know if I could handle myself.
Ugh, it is the holidays and I am being blue…. Sorry guys.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
Question for the ladies on board today: What is y’all’s policy toward paying for dates?? I can count on one hand the number of times a woman has ever paid for dinner or tickets to a show. In the past, when I made great money, I enjoyed being generous. Now that funds are limited, it’s become a strain for me to pay for every meal, every show.
By JustaJew
December 5, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
But that isn’t to say that God wants that…marriage should be a lifetime commitment..but we are all sinners and He knows we are going to make mistakes.
The Bible also says that G-d wants us to stone rebellious sons to death. Is that practical?
By Gale
December 5, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
Shaunti seems to be looking for a silver lining in the cloud of recession. Sorry, the reduction in divorce being silver is a thin Pollyanna glint. I fear it is a statistic that is being read for something it is not. It is like saying some people died because of wearing a seatbelt, therefore seatbelts are bad. Just ignore the many lives saved.
I think an ammentment to ban divorce would be difficult because a marriage is a civil contract. Banning the voluntary disolution or voiding of a civil contract would probably trash many years of contract law decisions. I don’t think we would want to go there. I agree that it is two-faced to “protect” marriage, but allow easy divorce. We should treat it like a civil contract, which it is. If some choose to be married in the church of their faith and adhere to the divorce practices of that faith, that is their choice.
Unless there are children, divorce -as a civil contract- should be voidable, disolved, by mutual consent. Children, of course, complicate the issue. There are also cases where one party contests the divorce. They can get very messy and that is where the real expense comes in. To be honest, if both parties agree, the matter can be done without a lawyer. It is complicated, but if you can believe it, in GA at least, they have a worksheet to assist in preparing for a court hearing. I watched some of these.
Unfortunately, most of the folks trying to do this did not understand the level of seriousness the courts give to a divorce when there are children. I saw the judge send half of the cases back to the table to get their act together. The judge gets a bad rap for being rude. I think he was spot on with not coddling those folks.
On the other hand, in the area of people who cannot afford a divorce, I also saw several abandened spouses suing for divorce. Several spoke little or no English and had no idea where the spouse was.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Ugh, it is the holidays and I am being blue…. Sorry guys.
No problem, Frustrated. I’ve always enjoyed holidays like Labor Day, Memorial Day, and the Fourth of July, but for whatever reason, Thanksgiving and Christmas always leave me a little blue. Part of the reason may be that I can’t stand the cold weather and shorter days. I think the biggest reason for me, however, is the implied pressure to be happy on T-Day and Xmas. Unfortunately, those holidays were rarely happy events in my family growing up, and thus trigger a lot of bad memories.
As far as giving to people in other countries, I think it’s a great idea and a wonderful gesture to help those around the globe. We don’t know the kind of poverty that many people live with day in and day out. I saw a show last night which mentioned a cholera epidemic sweeping through Zimbabwe due to a lack of clean drinking water.
By k
December 5, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Frustrated, I believe that people should worship as they believe, and follow the ideals and traditions that matter to them, such as the tenets you cite. I fault no one for holding these ideals sacred and trying their best to live up to them.
My problem is with the government treating citizens unequally. The Libertarian part of me wonders why the government involves itself in marriage at all, particularly in an age when divorce is just as common as staying married. The “piece of paper” means only as much as it means to both signers at the bottom, and for many straight people I’ve met, it isn’t that much.
A state marriage license has nothing to do with religious beliefs. It is a bundled kit that contains certain automatic, universally-recognized contractual rights between the two parties regarding property, inheritance, medical decisions, etc. This is where the law is applied unequally. Let gay couples have the kit, if they so choose, or make everybody pay lawyers to fight for the components inside. That’s all it is. Simple and fair. Not a threat to anyone else’s marriages, beliefs, or ideals.
By Gale
December 5, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
Shoot! I somehow erased my whole post.
Frustrated, I hope your child is better. As for why adopt oversears? Easier and cheaper. Why help children oversears. Here is my personal choice. Heifer.org, my charity of choice, is committed to fighting poverty. I am talking about poverty on a level that Americans have never seen. What I just ate for lunch, about 450 calories, is more than many people get to eat in a day. What they do get is often a single food item which is no where close to nutritional balance. If they are lucky, they might have enough water to drink. But that is not certain. Hot water on demand? no. Shelter? maybe. Clothing? Tuition to send their children to school. Remember that public schools are not the world norm.
So, when I look at the Angel Tree and gift requests for iPods or Bratz dolls, I think of children in the world who would benefit from a goat or a flock of duck, or a beehive, or maybe a low-tech pump and water purifier for the village. (different charity) I remind myself every day that I have light and heat at the flip of a switch, that I have hot, clean water just by turning a faucet, that I have enough food and clean clothes.
Sorry I got so far off topic.
By k
December 5, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Bruno, good question, especially for those of us on a “equality” kick! Personally, I let the man be the man and take me out to dinner and pay. I am gracious, order prudently, and limit my alcohol intake (even when encouraged to keep ordering… heh). I do not demand or expect a man to spend money on me constantly as a condition of keeping company.
After being treated two or three times, however, I always attempt to reciprocate by inviting him to enjoy a home-cooked meal — no skimping — accompanied by a nice variety of his preferred beverage, and served attentively in such a way as to make him feel special and appreciated. I have no problem springing for tickets to a show I want to see and inviting him to escort me. (Unless it’s my birthday, dammit.) Unlike many woman I know (i.e., the ones with the nice STUFF….) I don’t see a dating relationship as a financial opportunity, and am always sensitive to the needs and limitations of my gentleman friends. The things that impress me the most are the intangibles that money can’t buy, and often the best times are those involving simple pleasures, good music, and entertaining conversation. But that’s just my opinion.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
chuck—If you poke your head in today, I’m wondering if your stance toward gay people would change if it was ever shown that there is a genetic/biological basis for being either gay or straight. Both Sunshine and I referenced a study done in which the physiological responses of men and women were measured while male and female nude pictures were flashed onto a screen. In my opinion, such responses are so fast that I don’t think that attraction is a conscious decision.
By Sunshine
December 5, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
Hello All!
I must say an especially lame topic this week! I am with Bruno on this one, no proof to either argument, I pass! So I will answer your other question Mr. Bruno:
Question for the ladies on board today: What is y’all’s policy toward paying for dates?? I can count on one hand the number of times a woman has ever paid for dinner or tickets to a show. In the past, when I made great money, I enjoyed being generous. Now that funds are limited, it’s become a strain for me to pay for every meal, every show.
In my humble opinion, the guy should offer to pay especially if he is the one asking, if I am the one asking I should pay (and I have) but it is also polite to pay for something on a date if he is paying, examples, he pays for dinner you pay for the parking, or the ice cream after, or the movie, just something that shows you are not just there for the free meal!
By k
December 5, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
Gale, YAYYYYY HEIFER.org! I’ve recieved many goats and oxen for Christmas over the years! HAHA! Um, they stay with families in other countries, though… not at my house. I am SO COOL with that!
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Heifer.org
Gale—I thought that was a dating site for overweight people (just kidding).
I have hot, clean water just by turning a faucet
I did get a taste of what life is like without running water last week when my sewer line stopped up due to tree roots. When I ran my dishwasher, sewage backed up into the bathtub. Major yuck! Of course, the plumbers saw it as an opportunity to gouge me to the max. They showed up with a BobCat ($250 extra charge) in order to dig a hole 2’ x 4’ x 1.5’. By the time they were done, I was out $1200.
By chuck
December 5, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
Hey Kimberly, No need to apologize. I didn’t ask for one. I just wanted to point out the fact that you are often pretty harsh in your judgements for someone who says that it is wrong to judge. Your statement at the end of your “apology” exemplifies that idea:
The definition of hate is:
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest
I feel NONE of these things toward gay PEOPLE. In fact, if you knew the people that I know, not one of them would ever tell you that I expressed anything hateful toward ANY gay person, though I would admit to some jokes at their expense (not to anyone I know personally, but when one appears on a television show. That kind of thing). If however you want to accuse me of hating HOMOSEXUALITY I would stand guilty as charged. If you knew Jesus, you would know that while He NEVER condoned hating anyone, He did hate SIN.
Now I don’t have any gay friends, but I do have MANY Black friends, and I can tell you that they would WAIL on you calling Rosie O’Donnell the next Rosa Parks. You talk about offending people, you just laid on the MOTHER LODE of offense. I would caution you against saying that to your Black friends.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
The things that impress me the most are the intangibles that money can’t buy, and often the best times are those involving simple pleasures, good music, and entertaining conversation.
You are truly a jewel, k. Thanks for a beautiful answer.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Now I don’t have any gay friends
You don’t say, chuck—What a shock!!
By lovelyliz
December 5, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Does not getting a divorce even though your husband moved out 2 years earlier qualify as maintaining a marriage?
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Singing: I fell into a burning ring of fire. I went down, down, down, and the flames went higher. And it burns, burns, burns, the ring of fire. The ring of fire.
By Gale
December 5, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
Y’know, Chuck, it is probably out of place to ask you, but I thought about that Rosa Parks comparison too. It seemed to me that Ellen Digenerous (however she spells her name) would be a closer comparison, or maybe George Takai. Folks who just got married like normal people. Rosa sat at the counter like a normal person should and propelled an entire movement with that action. Who might you select as a gay person to compare to Rosa Parks?
By k
December 5, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Chuck, first things first: my Rosie/Rosa comment was made in the context of explaining that gay rights is the current battle in the ongoing Civil Rights war, of which there have been many battles in our history. Please do not attempt to twist that into a life-long biographical analysis of each individual and their relative merits to the welfare of our society. Each showed courage in standing up for her rights in a society that discriminated. Similar name/mission — end of comparison.
Second, you’re right, I do come off harshly at times. No argument. However, this is what I LEARNED FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Sorry. If the tarnish on the image of Christianity bothers you, I think it might fall upon YOU to polish some of it off. Simply shouting “Nuh-UH!” or “Bible SAYS!” the loudest doesn’t cut it. In all these years, you haven’t convinced me that you didn’t mean the “depraved little miscreant” remark with all your heart and soul, and hoped to cause pain with it.
Third, as I pointed out earlier today, my issue with marriage law is that American citizens must be treated equally by it, or it should not exist in the United States of America. Period. Your dissent to the idea of indivdual freedom (on this particular issue) is not supported by what you use to support it.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
chuck—Once again, your argument against homosexuality is predicated upon the idea that it is a conscious choice to be gay, that biology isn’t involved in any way, form, or fashion. If evidence to the contrary ever surfaced, would you change your stance?
By chuck
December 5, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Hey Brudog:
chuck—If you poke your head in today, I’m wondering if your stance toward gay people would change if it was ever shown that there is a genetic/biological basis for being either gay or straight.
It wouldn’t make any difference to me bruno. I don’t expect that there ever will be difinitive proof of a biological connection, but if you think about it, what would that change?
The ACT of homosexuality would still be a sin. Scientist say that some people have a genetic predisposition for alcoholism and drug addiction. Do you give them a pass if they act on that DESIRE to drink and that leads to vehicular homicide? I don’t think that TOJ would be inclined to ignore the tragedy that he just went through if it was shown that the woman driving was an alcoholic (and with 5 dui’s I would expect that is the case).
All of us have sins that we are more prone to commit. Mine are the tendency to eat too much and not being sensitive enough to the needs of others. You may have noticed that I also have a little tendency toward an acerbic tongue. HAVING THE TENDENCIES is not a SIN. When I ACT on these tendencies, it is SIN. No matter what the cause of the desire, when I ACT on it, it is SIN. Take you for instance. I think you would admit that you are a bit of a womanizer. I have know men who were serial adulterers. You step over the line into sin when you COMMIT adultery…or as Jesus pointed out below:
(For Kimberly’s sake, these are the words of Jesus.)
Mt. 5 27”You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The point is that if you give in to sinful desires physically, or even as it says in those verses, to the point where you are mentally dwelling on the idea of the sin then you have stepped over the line into sin.
As one commentator on these verses said theough:
We must remember that Jesus embraces those who humble themselves, acknowledging God’s right to rule, even if in practice they are not yet perfect (5:48).
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Brunooooooooooooooooooooo —
hey buddy!!
What is y’all’s policy toward paying for dates??
I always offered to pay … then, if things get serious, I try to split up who pays for the dates (you pay this time, I’ll pay next) - even now, when it comes to Mr. USinUK, I like to treat him now and then.
sorry, but you can’t demand equality, then say “the guy pays” … that’s a load of (wait for it ….. ) bollocks!!! :-)
going back to the gay/nature/nurture subject - there was also a study released within the last 2 years that said the more sons a woman has, the greater the likelihood that she will have a gay son … something about hormones in utero …
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
However, this is what I LEARNED FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU. Sorry.
Out of curiosity, why do you put so much importance on what people like chuck say?? Your gut tells you that his message is NOT one of love and acceptance (as does mine). Personally, I gave up on worrying what phoney-baloney “Christians” think about anything a lo-o-ong time ago.
By k
December 5, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Question re: “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”
If it looks like hate, sounds like hate, spews like hate, smells like hate, and bakes up in the pan like hate — TO THE PERSON PERCEIVING IT — then what’s the difference? An intangible sensation in the corner of your closed-off little heart? I mean, not to belittle your feelings, but… SO?
Ask the couple that’s been together for 10 years and wants to marry but can’t because YOU think they’re going to hell what that looks, sounds, & smells like. “Appearance of evil” and all. I’m just sayin’.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
frustrated -
you were so high on life yesterday … what happened??? do you need some of the Guiness Chocolate Cupcakes I happen to be making??? :-)
as for adoption (speaking as an adopted person, myself) - in the US, you usually have older children or children with handicaps. It’s not that it’s harder to get one here - it actually isn’t. It’s just that they’re not usually little bebes or they have medical issues.
and, as for going to other countries - think about it this way - we’re taking kids from really unfortunate circumstances (Ukraine, India, Ethiopia, etc) and bringing them to a fantastic country with loads more opportunities. isn’t that a good thing, too???
HUGS - feel better.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
I think you would admit that you are a bit of a womanizer.
Who, me????? Just because I’m hot for Sunshine’s pregnant belly????
I always offered to pay … then, if things get serious, I try to split up who pays for the dates (you pay this time, I’ll pay next) - even now, when it comes to Mr. USinUK, I like to treat him now and then.
I’m not sure why I always end up with these traditional girls who expect me to pay for everything. And it’s not a political orientation issue, either. My last three GFs have all been flaming liberals, and none of them ever pulled one red cent from their pockets.
Wait a minute, I just figured it out. I looked in the mirror and saw S-U-C-K-E-R written across my forehead. Mystery solved.
By lovelyliz
December 5, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
When it comes to marriage, quality matters.
By Bruno
December 5, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Scientist say that some people have a genetic predisposition for alcoholism and drug addiction. Do you give them a pass if they act on that DESIRE to drink and that leads to vehicular homicide?
Honestly, I don’t think your comparison is valid, chuck. The need to bond with another human is our deepest desire. If your biology is such that you are only attracted to the same sex, your only choice would be to live a life of solitude in your scheme of things. That’s a pretty harsh sentence to pass onto someone.
By k
December 5, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
sorry, but you can’t demand equality, then say “the guy pays” … that’s a load of (wait for it ….. )
That’s why I said I LET the man be the man and take me out. This would of course be based on HIS invitation to do so, not my insistence. The only thing I “demand” in a dating relationship is that the man GO AWAY and LEAVE ME ALONE when I feel we have reached that juncture. My demand for equality is regarding legal rights, as I have no such delusions that individuals will exercise it within their interpersonal relationships.
By Archie
December 5, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Now I don’t have any gay friends, but I do have MANY Black friends, and I can tell you that they would WAIL on you calling Rosie O’Donnell the next Rosa Parks. Yeah, I think of Rosie as the next Rosie O’Donnell nothing more.
Off topic, OJ Simpson just got at least 15 years of jailtime so I hope that makes some of y’all happy. As for me I don’t think justice was served this time and I don’t think justice was served 14 years ago and that’s a sad thing in our country. Simpson needed to do time years ago but this trial should not have been about that and I don’t think for a second he got a fair trail this around but even in saying that I don’t feel sorry for Simpson but I do think like K, said last week that justice is based more on what the majority wants than actually being right and fair. I do feel sorry for the man convicted along with Simpson because he was just convicted for being stupid and I don’t believe for a second he’s some danger to society.
Who might you select as a gay person to compare to Rosa Parks? No one because whether you are gay or not isn’t written all over your face. I support gay marriage because(getting back to fairness) it’s the right thing to do so folk can control their finances and their sex lives as adults but this whole gay marriage thing plays into religious views and majority whims.
By chuck
December 5, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Gale:
Who might you select as a gay person to compare to Rosa Parks?
No offense, but there isn’t a person that I would compare. Rosa Parks was discriminated against because of her RACE, something she could not and I assume would not want to change. Gays claim discrimination based on what they DO. That’s different IMO.
Kimberly, I don’t think I ever tried to convince you that I didn’t MEAN it when I called you that. Though it has been some time ago, I’m sure I meant it AT THE TIME, and it was probably said in anger or in response to something you said, though it could have been just a flippant remark. I’m not really sure because I don’t really remember the circumstances surrounding it. That does not come close to excusing it and I don’t ask you to. I DID HOWEVER, APOLOGIZE for saying it and that apology was sincere. I obviously hurt you with the comment, seeing that you remember it after what must be 2-3 years, so if it helps, I apologize for hurting you with my unkind remark.
As I said earlier, I am not blameless when it comes to making insensitive remarks on a blog to people that I feel like I know at a somewhat shallow level. I think we all tend to get carried away to some degree and say things that we would never say if we knew each other in a more personal way as friends or as colleagues at work.
By Gale
December 5, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Bruno. I tend to agree with USinUK regarding who pays on a date, although it has been a long time since I dated. I think it depends a lot on the guy as well. Some men might be insulted, seeing it as a suggestion that they are freeloading, or that they were expecting favors that the woman is derailing, whether that was the case in either mind or not. It is best to have the conversation with the lady/gent up front before it comes time to pay.
Chuck, I know I am going to hate myself for saying this… IF homosexuality is biological, then “God” knew about it - created it. Did “God” mean to create beings that would must ever be celebate and never know the joy of an intimate relationship? If “God” created a homosexual, did he mean for this individual to be tested by being ever apart from his heterosexual brothers and sisters? Or is it possible that “God” created homosexuals to partner the earth with heterosexuals and perhaps those individuals who wrote the books of the Bible did not understand that homosexuality was “God’s” creation called homosexuality a sin because they did not understand “God’s” will?
I ask this thoughtfully and I hope you will respond in kind. I am not trying to make fun of your belief, just present what I think is a reasonable observation.
By chuck
December 5, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Hold on there Bruno:
Honestly, I don’t think your comparison is valid, chuck. The need to bond with another human is our deepest desire.
Do you not know of ANY drug addicts or alcoholics who have abandoned a spouse and children to pursue their addictions? I ALSO know of many alcoholics who have CHOSEN to never drink again so that they can keep their families together. As strong as the desire is, they abandon it for SOMETHING BETTER.
By k
December 5, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
Bruno, why do I care what people like that say? Because they give Christianity a bad name, IMO. I’ve spent decades telling my Jewish friends not to judge Christ on what some backward, bigoted redneck said to them at the office/store/school/wherever. Every one of them has witnessed the UN-love, and attributes it to the brand name taken by the messenger. Just stickin’ up for Big J in my own way, yo.
I should remember what Dr. King said: “Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
I’m gonna try to do better with that, but some people make it hard.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
Wait a minute, I just figured it out. I looked in the mirror and saw S-U-C-K-E-R written across my forehead. Mystery solved.
gee. I hope that washes off. ;-) seriously - we’re out here, we wimmen-folk who look like grown-ups and act like grown-ups, as well. you’ll find her eventually. just get to washing with hot soapy water to get rid of that sign!!!
k -
That’s why I said I LET the man be the man and take me out.
wow. defensive much? I actually wasn’t talking about you.
it’s just my opinion (… that and £1.50 blahblahblah … ), but even if you make the token effort to reach for your wallet, the guy can still “be the guy” and pay for the tab and you’ve at least shown yourself to be an adult, independent woman who doesn’t expect her S.O. to pay for everything.
… unless you actually, you know … do.
By chuck
December 5, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Gale, I would not accuse you of posting thoughtlessly. You have always been IMO a very level-headed, even-handed poster. I would however disagree with your presupposition that just because it may be shown to have a biological basis, that God created it. Genetic mutations occur all the time. IF, and again this has never been proven and I don’t believe it ever will be proven, homosexuality has a biological basis, it would exist because we live in a fallen world. There are many explanations for genetic CHANGES.
Why are certain people more susceptible to alcoholism? When God created the world, he didn’t create alcohol. NOPE, people more susceptible to alcoholism in most cases IF THEIR PARENTS are alcoholics. Again, these changes occur over time (micro-evolution) in MANY SPECIES of both plants and animals. It certainly was not part of God’s plan.
Finally, IF MEN WROTE THE BIBLE, YOU WOULD BE CORRECT IN PART OF YOUR ASSUMPTION. THEY WOULDN’T UNDERSTAND. Fortunately though, GOD wrote the Bible USING MEN THAT HE INSPIRED. It says what I believe GOD MEANT for it to say.
By k
December 5, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
USinUK, I had a British boyfriend once. As such, I am sensitive to the word “Bollocks!!” being flung at me… you might have noticed. He was bat-sh!t crazy, and by the way, bilked me out of a large sum of money that I gladly offered in response to a BS sob story I actually believed. Maybe he wasn’t so crazy afterall, huh? (Thought about taking out a full-page ad in the Banbury paper to warn others, but I think he works the furr’ners mostly.) He also hurled dogmatic religious imperatives at me all the time. And to think I mistook that for love…. Oh well, live & learn.
By chuck
December 5, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
I mean…He wouldn’t be much of a God if He couldn’t make sure that His OWN WORD said what He meant for it to say.
Maybe we can continue this discussion on Monday some. My kids were taking a test today so I had a little more time to get in here. Monday won’t be as easy. Ya’ll have a GREAT WEEKEND!!! I’m outta here.
By Gale
December 5, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Good point, Archie. You are so right and I feel dumb for even asking such a thing. In reality, gay people are all around and most are not recognizable. In everyday life, I never get told to get to the back of the bus. Gays are only treated differently after they self identify. Military gays have served honorably for centuries. It is only when they want to have a real relationship, bond to another human, that some people become upset. Unless I kiss my partner in public (which she would not permit) no one would know we are gay. You are right, it is a bad analogy. It is still civil rights. But it isn’t the same thing at all.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this
k -
I am sensitive to the word “Bollocks!!” being flung at me
not flinging bollocks at you … :-) … and I’m sorry to hear that you were soooooo taken advantage of - I think everyone has a variation of that story if they’ve been single long enough. it doesn’t make things any easier, but it should help to know you aren’t the only mug out there.
back to bollocks … I gotta say, it is my fav-fav-FAVORITE WORD!!! it has such a resonance, it’s a good mouthy, chewy, emphatic word to use. so much better than BS. bollocks! say it loud, say it proud!!!
as for you, k, take back the bollocks!! make it your own!!
He also hurled dogmatic religious imperatives at me all the time
man British and religious??? honey, you found the equivalent of the white elephant!! talk about rare!!! (yet another thing I love about this country - you’re not hounded by evangelicals everytime you turn around … while 70% of people categorize themselves as Christian, most people think it’s rude to impose their religious views on others … it’s downright refreshing, I tell ya!)
By k
December 5, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Um, y’all, I was only referencing the fact that the civil rights struggle marches on, though the faces change. “Gay is the new black” references the quest for equality, not a lumping together of everyone’s differing personal tribulations as being exactly the same.
By Frustrated
December 5, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
you were so high on life yesterday … what happened??? do you need some of the Guiness Chocolate Cupcakes I happen to be making??? :-)
Arg…Just rub it on my hips, it is where it would go anyway :) I don’t know why I am so gloomy….my baby had surgery (nothing serious, just tubes), so I am out of sorts with that…I sobbed like an idiot when they put the mask on….she struggled for a minute and then just looked over at me with a tear in her eye and went to sleep….HEARTBREAKING..I practically ran out and my hubby was standing there with his arms open..(like he knew beforehand I would be bursting through the doors with tears running down my face)
That mixed with horomones just doesn’t make for the brightest of days…
But I will get over it.. We need something else to talk about…As much as I love a good debate, I am over trying to reason with people on the gay issue… I think we all just need to agree to disagree on that one….
Sooooo…everyone have their shopping done, tree up, Charlie Brown music blaring???? (I caught myself trying to dance like the kids do on CB’s Christmas Special the other night….my hubby thought I had lost my mind….kind of the cleopatra, head bobbing thing…HAHA)
Gale—Thank you for the cheery note on my baby…she is fine:)
By Gale
December 5, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Gosh, it is so difficult to know who to believe when someone says, “God” told me. Why do we lock those people up today, but many still credit every word written in the Bible as coming direct from “God”? This is a mystery to me. How many people, do you think, society has locked up because they acted on what “God” told them? What if “God” really did tell them to do whatever it was?
By k
December 5, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
USinUK, from what I gather, he was despised in his own community in Oxfordshire, a constant lament. (He should hang out with Bill O’Reilley and whine about the war on Christmas. Haha!) Hence the seeking of foreign women. I did purchase the Sex Pistols’ classic, Never Mind the Bollocks, though. No music collection is complete without it.
By Gale
December 5, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
k, I very much agree that gay rights issues are civil rights issues. There are similarities. But I can see how a black person would reject the direct comparison. You cannot identify me as part of a group by looking at me. About 10% of the population is gay. But could anyone enforce a segregation of gays and straights? Can you look around at a shopping mall and tell who is gay? I have never been told I had to pass a test to vote because I’m gay. I can go into any straight club or restaurant without question. It is only when I self identify there is a problem. I have a civil rights problem, but it is not the same as the black community faced because they look different.
By Frustrated
December 5, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Check this out….
www.LetsSayThanks.com
I thought it was really cool…It has cards that children have made for the troops… You pick which design you want, put your name and meesage in it, and they will print it and send it for you for free…
What a great idea!!!! And it’s free!!!!
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Frustrated -
Arg…Just rub it on my hips, it is where it would go anyway :) I don’t know why I am so gloomy….my baby had surgery (nothing serious, just tubes), so I am out of sorts with that…I sobbed like an idiot when they put the mask on….she struggled for a minute and then just looked over at me with a tear in her eye and went to sleep….HEARTBREAKING
oh, honeybunny. BIG BIG HUGS!!! I’m so sorry - I know you had to feel so helpless when she was looking at you.
as the song goes … aaaaaaaaacceeeeeentuate the positive, eeeeeeeeeeeliiiiiiminate the negative, laaaaaaaaaatch oooooooon to the affirmative and don’t get stuck with In-Between.
dance to Charlie Brown. hug and kiss your hubby and children. eat some chocolate, hips be damned.
:-)
By Gale
December 5, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
I hope the weekend and night time posters will redirect us to the topic, or that we somehow find some good news to discuss on Monday. Everyone have a good weekend.
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Gale -
You cannot identify me as part of a group by looking at me. About 10% of the population is gay. But could anyone enforce a segregation of gays and straights? Can you look around at a shopping mall and tell who is gay?
while I understand that the black community may not like the correlation to the civil rights movement, it is what it is - a demand for equal rights.
you can’t 100% identify a Jewish person just by looking at him/her (unless he’s in a yarmulke and/or is an Hasid) - that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have laws prohibiting discrimination based on religion.
you are who you are. my friends in Atlanta who have been together more than 30 years are who they are. my friends in DC who have been together 10+ years and have a GORgeous, sweet boy are who they are - not because they “chose” to be gay, but because they could no more be anyone/anything else than they could pole vault to the moon.
you all deserve the same rights to marry, to live where you want, to work where you want that heterosexual people have.
and just know that there are LOADS of us non-gay folk who are out here, supporting your rights, too.
By Sunshine
December 5, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
just know that there are LOADS of us non-gay folk who are out here, supporting your rights, too.—I second that!
And Frustrated, I am sorry you are having a tough time, hang in there, and I wish you baby a speedy recovery! Thanks for the tip on www.LetsSayThanks.com I am sending it along to everyone of my email contacts!
By JustaJew
December 5, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Please SOMEONE help me to understand Chuck’s logic. He says that being gay isn’t part of G-d’s plan yet in the Bible (the direct Word of G-d according to Chuck) it says that a man is forbidden to lay with a man. How can homosexuality not be a part of G-d’s plan and yet he mentions it ever so GLARINGLY in His Word?
By k
December 5, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
Fine. I’ll lay off the Equality discussion…. for awhile. But I will continue to bring it up when the topic is, or the discussion turns, relevant (like today’s topic.)
KNOW THIS: “Agreeing to disagree” is only going to be okay when my gay friend has the same right as I do to marry the man who loves him. As long as disagreeing perpetuates the legal oppression of one subset of citizens, NO, I will NOT “let it go,” “give it up,” or “agree to disagree.” Sorry, but I still believe in that “liberty and justice for ALL” business, no matter how many of you are willing to settle for less. Help change the law, and I’ll totally STFU about it!
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
k -
KNOW THIS: “Agreeing to disagree” is only going to be okay when my gay friend has the same right as I do to marry the man who loves him. As long as disagreeing perpetuates the legal oppression of one subset of citizens, NO, I will NOT “let it go,” “give it up,” or “agree to disagree.”
wooooooowoooooooooooooo!!!
raucous applause
okay, folks … that’s it for me tonight …
have a great weekend - see you guys on Monday
By USinUK
December 5, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
btw … anyone who is thinking about watching House of Saddam on HBO this weekend - it’s a good series (it’s a BBC series - aired here a few months ago) … well acted, interesting to watch, even though we all know how it ends up …
By Frustrated
December 5, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
US——You are my new besty…:)
Sunshine—Thank you….I hope you do not EVER have to go through that with the bundle of joy…but in case you do, I suggest that you take extra tissues:)
JustaJew—-We’ve had the whole discussion on God’s plan vs being “born” gay…You are a few months too late… But feel free to go back and read old posts..
K—-*NO, I will NOT “let it go,” “give it up,” or “agree to disagree.” *
Ok, you can do as you so choose….but just remember…With the kind of RANTING you are doing in some of your posts (which at times comes across as rude)…I don’t see where you can so easily get upset when someone flings Bullocks on you. I am totally fine with you sticking up for what you believe, it is the same thing that us “Bad Christians” are doing. And I am sorry that you had had a not so heart-warming experience in the past with Christians…But everyone who stereotypes ALL Christians based on a few experiences they have had, then you are no better than the ones you are judging….
I am against the gay marriage, as you all know, but I have NEVER said that I hate gay people, or that they are terrible people. Our beliefs are based on the Bible… If you don’t believe the same way we do (meaning interpret the Bible as we do), then we are forever going to go in circles…. That is why I said agree to disagree…You are not changing our minds and we are not changing yours….
On to better topics next week….Have a great weekend…I am off to dance around the kitchen with Charlie Brown, Celine and Josh Groban…
Ta-ta
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
so … how is la bebe?? is she back home and feeling better?? hope you had a better weekend than you were having on Friday :-)
(you had me with CB Christmas … then you lost me with Celine … GAH!!!)
meanwhile … has anyone here finished their Christmas cards? Christmas shopping??
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
US-
Much better outlook this week!!!!
I can’t believe you don’t like her Christmas album, she has an amazing voice!!!
I haven’t started my Christmas cards, but I have all but one gift bought…eeks….
I am doing photo cards this year though, so just click and print for me:)
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
nope. sorry. can’t stand Celine. never have liked her. her voice makes my fillings hurt. now, Ella Fitzgerald’s Chritsmas CD, I can listen to until it’s worn out :-) (after Charlie Brown, she’s my first runner up)
I’m starting on my cards this Wednesday (doing round 1 of Christmas Cookie Baking and will try to tackle the cards). Thought about doing picture cards, but decided against (the hubster hates having his picture taken, much less distributed)
and you are SO GOOD having nearly all your shopping done … my US nephews and niece all want gift cards, so that’ll be easy (the hub is in charge of my UK nieces). Need to get something small for the hub - his major gift is done. so, I have a few things outstanding, but not many.
it looks like I’ll do 2 rounds of baking - first one this week for my work peeps, the next one next weekend to distribute to friends and fam.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
I have not baked Christmas cookies in years; terminal diets all around me. Nobody wants that many cookies in the house. I have an aversion to gift cards for kids. My partners niece and nephew want gift cards, but our experience is that they have developed a habit of frivolous spending. Besides, we prefer to make a little effort to get to know them enough to try to gift them with something they will enjoy. We only see them, maybe once a year.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
I see there has been no additional on topic input. Does that mean divorce is a dead topic for everyone? If we don’t care whether people divorce or not, why should anyone care about marriage?
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
never have liked her. her voice makes my fillings hurt
HAHAHAHAHA….I’m sorry you don’t like her…I am actually looking for a new Christmas CD…I need some kind of mixed CD with different people.. Any suggestions?
I start shopping in Sept…I have so much going on during the holidays, I know that I won’t be able to get things done if I wait. My husband called me a Christmas-holic this weekend. I go all out on the decorations. And I tend to change my theme every year. The basement (a full daylight basement) is full of nothing but Christmas decor…I think it is time for a yard sale:)
I don’t think I am going to get to do any baking this year for the office… My baby turns one this weekend, so I am in full birthday swing in getting ready for the party at our house… We are expecting about 50 people….I was sewing like mad this weekend to make matching table clothes and picture banners for her party!!!!
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
aHA!!! now we know Frustrated’s true identity … MARTHA STEWART!!!
;-)
seriously - enjoy the birthday bash - she’s earned all the cake and ice cream she wants! (sweet little mite … they’re so cute when they’re little … and can’t talk back)
as for Christmas CD recommendations - there are LOADS of great Christmas compilations out there!! Old Navy has done some great Christmas CDs in the past (and cheap, too!) - I’ll bet Starbucks has some good ones … you ought to just pootle around Amazon for a bit to see what you can see.
Gale -
No Christmas cookies??? BLASPHEMY!!! I make about 6 different types of cookies for the fam, neighbors and friends (and, let’s face it, anyone who is earnestly trying to diet during Christmas is fighting a losing battle, anyway). This year: Sugar, Shortbread, Chocolate, Lemon-Pistachio, Lime, and Chewy Chocolate Ginger.
Like Frustrated, I crank up the Christmas CDs and go a little mad, dancing around with cookie cutters and royal icing. The kitchen is usually a “white christmas” scene all its own when I’m done, with flour and powdered sugar coating every surface.
Okay. Favorite Christmas movie … ??? For me, it is now and always will be It’s a Wonderful Life. I’ve been watching it since I was a teenager and it makes me cry every single time when all his friends and neighbors come in with the basket of cash. First runner up: A Christmas Carol starring Patrick Stewart (Capt. Jean Luc Picard).
By Gale
December 8, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Hoky Smokes, Frustrated! I cannot help with vocal Christmas music as I tend to instrumentals. I have all the Manheim Steamroller CDs (I went to school with Chip). I keep looking for a CD by Duke Ellington with the Nutcraker Suite variation he did. I always hear snippets of it and want it for my iPod. Duh, I could probably download it from iTunes, don’tcha think?
By Lyrazel
December 8, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
And in the end, it is heartening to know that, statistically, many of them — and their children — will look back on this difficult economic period with gratitude. Uh, gee whiz I doubt anyone will look back on this economic period feeling a warm fuzzy nostalgia after loosing their job, home foreclosed on and autos repossessed. Maybe on TV.
Welcome to monday, I guess.
Ok, so to topic: a no-contest divorce can be had with a lawyer representation at $500.00. Without a lawyer one can file appropriate papers gained from internet sites and bookstores for about $75-100 depending on filing charges. Both ways can help people with limited assets. When you HAVE to leave—THINGS do not matter.
If you want pity for divorce victims who have a 700k house that can only be sold for 300k in todays market—well in truth I have none. If you stay with your spouse because you cannot sell your assets at a profit then really, do you need divorce assistance? If you have no job between you two and are looking for a way to ditch the house and the other but keep the equity —chucklehead what planet were you born on?
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
Gale -
Does that mean divorce is a dead topic for everyone?
it was such an incredibly stoooooopid premise - yeah, folks are losing their jobs … and their houses … and we have the lowest number of men age 16+ in the workforce since the 1940s, but HEY! the number of divorces is going down!!
like I said - scraping the bottom of the barrel for good news.
“other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I keep looking for a CD by Duke Ellington with the Nutcraker Suite variation he did. I always hear snippets of it and want it for my iPod. Duh, I could probably download it from iTunes, don’tcha think?
there’s a “Harlem Nutcracker” on offer at Amazon … is that what you’re looking for???
(gooooooooooooooootta love The Duke!)
By Gale
December 8, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
Must views for us are: The Snowman and The Santa CLause. I think she watches The Santa Clause to humor me. The Snowman has one of the few recordings of a boys’ choir that I like. Boy sopranos are a poor substitute for a real mature soprano, IMO. We delivered a copy of The Snowman to the three year old niece for viewing. I don’t know if she will relate to it; maybe since it has a little boy. But she has never seen snow.
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
HAHA, My hubby called me Betty Homemaker last night when she saw me peddaling away at the sewing machine while waiting for the dryer to finish to throw in another load..I was running in circles. I am def no Martha Stewart, although I did get the picture banner idea from her website… I am just cheap and refuse to pay retail price for a “theme” package deal.. She is 1, she isn’t getting married….So I felt like it would be more sentimental if I made the decorations….It will basically look like “a walk through the first year” in pictures. Adorable!!!
Gale- I LOVE the Manheim Steamroller CDs! I usually play it when I have company (I ususally have a “friends” Christmas party where it is a hit!) But when it comes to just me, I have to have something with words to sing along to. I tend to blare it, so my voice is muffled.. US, I bet you would love to be in my kitchen as Celine hits the high notes in O Holy Night with the stereo at it’s highest volume…talk about glass breaking! My husband usually finds an excuse to work outside in the garage.:)
US—-Let’s see…. I love the cartoon classics.. Rudolf, Frosty, The Grinch and Garfield all come to mind…. And I saw Shrek The Halls last week, it was ok… My daughter liked donkey..although she kept calling him Dog. My hubby would day “Christmas Story” hands down.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, youu have such a way with words. I agree with everything you said.
Harlem Nutcracker: Yes, I think that is probably it. I’ll add it to my Christmas list, the length of which is troubling to my partner.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
OK, after reading the reveiws, I think the Three Suites cd would be my choice. Harlem Nutcracker seems to be something based on that. I also saw a Klezmer Nutcracker that I bet would be a panic. I love Klezmer.
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
My favorite line from A Christmas Story:
“FRAGILE - (pronounced fra-geee-lay) - it must be from Italy!”
that father is one of the best movie characters ever.
there was a story in the paper months ago that some guy bought the house where it was filmed and restored it to look just like it did in the movie - he does tours. (I think it’s somewhere around Chicago)
I’ve never seen The Snowman. But, yes, the old Rudolph cartoons are C-LASSICS!!! (I’m Mister Heat Meiser … and “Bumbles bounce!”) Sadly, they don’t air here in the UK. What they do show on Christmas in the UK is The Great Escape. why??? I have absolutely no idea.
re: celine in o holy night … My husband usually finds an excuse to work outside in the garage … I’d be right there with him … power-saw on full blast!!! ;-)
By Grinchie
December 8, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
Christmas sux.
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I love Klezmer.
I do too!!! if you look around, there’s a klezmer bluegrass band that has a couple of CDs out … can’t remember the name of the group
By JustaJew
December 8, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
that father is one of the best movie characters ever.
2nd that!!! Did you know they were originally considering Jack Nicholson for that role!!! Jeesum Crow…this was just a few years after The Shining was made! I can just see A Christmas Story with the dad weilding an Ax and saying Heeeeere’s Johnny!!! as he chops through the door (and a few of the Bumpases dogs!!!)
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
US—-“His beak blinks like a blinking beacon”..aha…your turn!
I’ll add it to my Christmas list, the length of which is troubling to my partner.
You sound like me!!! Except last year I didn’t make a list, so I got a coupon organizer.. This year, I wrote it all out for him…so we shall see!!!
By Gale
December 8, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Give me Streisand for O Holy Night. A Steisand Christmas cd is always kind of funny to me. I may have to check out Celine. As a soprano, I relish the high notes done full bore.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
Frustrated, the problem is —as is the case with many who have been married/partnered for many years— everything we think of is an us gift or comepletely frivolous. We are both getting a bit tired of the completely frivolous and the lack of space for stuff we don’t use.
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Did you know they were originally considering Jack Nicholson for that role
HAHA, did you take the quiz too???
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
Give me Streisand for O Holy Night
actually, Kristin Chenowith just came out with a Christmas CD - it’s gotten good reviews (and I think she just rocks) …
Did you know they were originally considering Jack Nicholson for that role!!! Jeesum Crow
GAH!!! no! no! no! now, I’m always going to have those evil eyebrows of his in mind when I watch the lugnut scene …
totally on a different subject - did you ever see the Simpsons version of The Shining? “all work and no beer make Homer something-something” “go crazy?” “don’t mind if I do!!!”
Frustrated - “she thinks I’m cuuuuuuuuuuute!”
(yep. these are the things that take up space in my brain. I’ve had the same cell phone for 3 years and still don’t know the phone number - but I can quote lines from the Simpsons, any number of movies and sing almost all of the Schoolhouse Rock songs … sigh)
By Lyrazel
December 8, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
thank you gale. I do try.
Usually when this season comes around I dread its happy TV carolers and pop tunes of Santa’s misdeeds. I do enjoy one seasonal album by Ralph Lundsten called Nordic Light and do heartily recommend it to people averse to the saccharine holiday fare but want something reflective of the Winter Season that is uplifting, instrumental and quite good music.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
USinUK, has anyone ever told you, you are strange sometimes. :-)
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
ooo … another great recommendation (my 2nd runner up, should Charlie Brown and Ella be unable to fulfill their duties):
The Chieftains - The Bells of Dublin
Frustrated, if this CD doesn’t make you get up and dance, nothing will. FANTASTIC CD!!
sure and begorrah.
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
Gale -
USinUK, has anyone ever told you, you are strange sometimes. :-)
most of my friends have stopped telling me and just accepted it … although, I do occasionally get those looks
:-)
By chuck
December 8, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
Conjunction junction, what’s your function?
Good Mrning everybody.
US—-Let’s see…. I love the cartoon classics.. Rudolf, Frosty, The Grinch and Garfield all come to mind…. And I saw Shrek The Halls last week, it was ok… My daughter liked donkey..although she kept calling him Dog. My hubby would day “Christmas Story” hands down.
For the CARTOON CLASSICS, you’ve GOT TO HAVE Claymation Christmas near the top of your list. The first song “We Three Kings” ROCKS.
Best Christmas MOVIES to me are all oldies. In no particular order:
It’s A Wonderful Life (probably number one) (“Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings”)
Miracle on 34th Street (Faith is believing when common sense tells you not to.) (I believe… I believe… It’s silly, but I believe.) AND, My FAVORITE QUOTE from “Fred Murtz”: Charles Halloran: All right, you go back and tell them that the New York State Supreme Court rules there’s no Santa Claus. It’s all over the papers. The kids read it and they don’t hang up their stockings. Now what happens to all the toys that are supposed to be in those stockings? Nobody buys them. The toy manufacturers are going to like that; so they have to lay off a lot of their employees, union employees. Now you got the CIO and the AF of L against you and they’re going to adore you for it and they’re going to say it with votes. Oh, and the department stores are going to love you too and the Christmas card makers and the candy companies. Ho ho. Henry, you’re going to be an awful popular fella. And what about the Salvation Army? Why, they got a Santa Claus on every corner, and they’re taking a fortune. But you go ahead Henry, you do it your way. You go on back in there and tell them that you rule there is no Santy Claus. Go on. But if you do, remember this: you can count on getting just two votes, your own and that district attorney’s out there. Judge Henry X. Harper: The District Attorney’s a Republican.
A Holiday Affair (Robert Mitchum was great in that movie)
Holiday Inn
Christmas In Connecticutt
Just a short list, but a good one.
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
everything we think of is an us gift or comepletely frivolous
Yes, I can relate… I ask for things like dishes to complete our collection, a new vaccuum (a decent one that is more than the $40 special)…and bird houses/feeders for all the backyard critters to feed off of….
He asks for Cds and golf gear….and we have diffing preferences when it comes to music and I don’t golf….. So his lists is for him, mine is for “us”
But that is ok… I had a blast shopping for the baby this year…
Us-“This fog is as thick as peanut butter”
Yes, my mind is full of snip-its too.. But that one is fresh on the memory, as I have already watched it 3-4 times this season with my daughter. I have always wondered how I would fare at Jeopardy….but I tend to freeze when put on the spot with questions…I am a terrible second guess person..
How could I forget my other favorite album….The Chipmunks!!!!! I have it on vinyl!!! “I still want a hooola-hoooop”….
By Gale
December 8, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
You can sing Chipmonks. I have been humming Suger Rum Cherry.
By JustaJew
December 8, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
want something reflective of the Winter Season that is uplifting, instrumental and quite good music
Quite right Lyrazel. Have you heard the Winter Holiday album from Tori Amos? One of the best I’ve ever heard.
By chuck
December 8, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Why, any doe would be lucky to know someone with a nose like that.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
One year, she bought me a sword; a reproduction of Arwen’s sword from the Lord of The Rings movie. That blew me a way. It was totally unexpected. I had mentioned how cool I thought it was and she remembered. One year she bought an automatic coin wrapper. She got really mad when I started sorting through our coins to wrap them two days before Christmas. She gave me the present early, but claimed I ruined the surprise. It was still a great present. I am never that thoughful. I wish I was, but I’m not.
So, W2W folk, what was your best holiday present, not birthday present, ever, especially if it was from your SO.
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
Chuck -
You love Holiday Inn??? THAT’S ONE OF MY ALL-TIME FAVS!!! (it’s hard to find folks who know of it - most people think White Christmas came from the movie of the same name) … Bing is just … soo … brilliant!! Love that flick - love it, love it, love it!!
Miracle on 34th street is okay - but no one compares with George Bailey -
someone told me a few years ago that, when Wonderful Life first came out, it was a flop. Everyone had just come out of WWII and the Depression - they wanted to look ahead and be positive, not look back at how desperate things got. I think it’s sublime - not just for Christmas, but it’s just a good bit of movie-making.
By Grinchie
December 8, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
“what was your best holiday present?”
Hemlock. It wasn’t enough to kill me, though. But it’s the thought that counts.
By Sunshine
December 8, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Hello All,
I have been enjoying the X-mas reminiscing this morning! Yeah for all the good cheer!
So, W2W folk, what was your best holiday present, not birthday present, ever, especially if it was from your SO.
Mine was a little tiny fuzzy ferret girl! Me and the now hubby were in an apartment and I already had a little ferret and thought she could use a friend, since the cat we had did not seem to do anything other than swat at her! So I had been looking at pet stores and found this little black and white fur ball, my plan was after the holidays when I had a bit more money I was going to go scoop her up, but there she was under the tree when I got up on Christmas morning! Completely unexpected, and hubby had gone to an enormous amount of trouble to get her, hide her, and keep her out of trouble till Christmas morning! She had a ball in all the wrapping paper that morning too!
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Hey Sunshine!!
my favorite presie … the hubster and I don’t really do big gifts (we tend to do more stuff during the year and go all out for each other’s birthday rather than blow a wad of £££ on Christmas when there are other folkses to spend on) … last year, though, he did well - got me a snappy little digicam (MUCH needed and appreciated). I bought him XBox games (including Dead Rising … the hubster loves him some zombie action)
the cmas before we got married, my fam bought us our honeymoon B&B stay in Asheville - THAT was a great gift!!
and, when I was a kid, Santa brought me a Barbie Townhouse (complete with elevator).
those were some good gifties. :-)
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Everybody SING!!!
http://www. youtube. com/ watch?v=8mw-1ehsuJM&feature=related
By Sunshine
December 8, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
Hey USin—B&B stay in Asheville - THAT was a great gift!! Where did you stay?!?! I LOVE Asheville, have spent 10+ summers there as a kid! What a great place to honeymoon! Try to get up there for a week or so whenever I can!
By Bruno
December 8, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
what was your best holiday present?
When I was in my early 20s, I dated a lady for nearly 7 years. Because we were both college students for most of that time, we never had much money. Prior to dating me, she had had a very troubled childhood and ended up marrying a man who was much older than she was, and felt very stifled. As a result, she was still “finding herself” when we got together.
On our second Christmas together, I scrimped and saved for a few months and bought her a Yamaha acoustic guitar so that she could learn to play music. When I brought it out to surprise her, her eyes welled up with tears. It wasn’t the guitar itself which meant so much to her, but more the encouragement that I gave her to be all that she could be in life.
For me, that will always be my best Christmas memory……
By chuck
December 8, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Holiday Inn is a must watch movie every Christmas, USUK. Much better than White Christmas.
Of the more modern Christmas movies I like The Santa Claus I and II, didn’t care for III because I don’t like Martin Short (except as Ed Grimsley).
Elf was pretty good too, though Will Ferrell has limited appeal for me also.
By Frustrated
December 8, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Gale——-I LOOOOOOOOVVVVEEE Lord of the Rings.. I went to all three midnight previews when they first came out. And now when they play them on TV, I can’t help but get wrapped up in them all over again! Eeks, now I want to go watch all three extended versions in a row…talk about a day of it!!!
My fave present????
Hmmmm…I would have to say my camcorder…I got it the same Christmas my hubby proposed, so I wasn’t expecting ANYTHING after I got my ring… But he went all out that year. And it is so handy on catching the funny times with our baby.
By Grinchie
December 8, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
This is no fun. How about, what’s the WORST Christmas you ever had?
By USinUK
December 8, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
Sunshine -
Where did you stay?!?!
may I recommend the Whit Gate Inn - FAB B&B - close to downtown and to the Biltmore. The owners are wonderful - took great care of us. They served a beautiful 3 course breakfast and the rooms were cozy, clean and romantical.
I can’t recommend the place highly enough.
chuck -
I knew we had to have something in common!! how funny that it’s Bing and Fred :-)
brunoooooooooooo -
what a great Christmas memory!
By Gale
December 8, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Grinchie, Nah, I typed it in and then deleted it. I’m not going there.
By Mara
December 8, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Hey y’all.
Lord of the Rings - loved the books so much I’ve worn out two box sets and working on the third. Which is why the movies infuriate me. I know the works so well that the little details just irk me. Arwen, with a SWORD?! Elves in Helm’s Deep?!! And by the by, Arwens elfstone was an EMERALD! ARGH! (deeeeeep cleansing breath…in…and out…in…)
best gift - the most memorable gift I’ve ever gotten was my first “adult” gift. I was maybe 9 or 10 and my folks bought me my very own, never-before-used-by-anyone, goosedown pillow. Don’t ask me why that one has stuck with me, but my eyes still well up when I think about it.
can only stay a minute. Hopefully tomorrow won’t be so busy and I can hang out for a while. Hugs.
By Gale
December 8, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Mara, too true about LOTR. Obviously they wanted a more in your face romance. Hence the changes around Arwen. They should have left it be IMO. I would still have noticed the sword if Glorfindel had weilded it.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
LOTR … my favorite memory of that movie involves my best friend who was “GREAT with child” as the good book says (and I do mean she was ginormous) … poor thing, she was SO looking forward to seeing it in the theater - unfortunately, she spent as much time in the ladies room as she did watching the movie …
needless to say, the first time we watched the DVD at my house, she kept saying “wait - I don’t remember this part” … “you were in the bathroom” … “I don’t remember this, either” … “you were in the bathroom” …
Sunshine - as you enter your third trimester, I recommend DVDs as movie theaters don’t have a pause button.
By Mara
December 9, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
tumbleweed
By Frustrated
December 9, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
Dear Samantha Claus
Haha, did everyone see it last night?????
By Mara
December 9, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
I wasn’t able to post much yesterday but wanted to know how many of you watch football? Sunday on Fox Sports, they aired a locker room speech by the owner of the Vikings. In the background, one of the players was slap NAKED! He grabbed a towel and tried to cover himself up (with minimal success) but it distracted me…and amused the Mr. :^)
My question to the forum…why do y’all think a fleeting glimpse of Janet’s breast cause an explosion of affront, legality, legislation, and a revision of broadcasting rules while this, which was FAR more egregious, has merited little more than a “form letter” apology from Fox?
By Gale
December 9, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Frustrated, Is that the dog or cow, or something that wants to be a reindeer? I’ve never seen that one. I confess that most of the Christmas specials are lost on me. I usually don’t turn the TV on at night, unless it is to watch something we’ve recorded. That means I miss all the ads saying when something will be shown. ON the bright side, I also missed the many political ads.
By RoadRunner
December 9, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
tumbleweed
Roadrunners
By Gale
December 9, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
I think FOX should be fined. Breasts get frequent screen time, but “boys” are usually hidden. Nah, I didn’t see it.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
Hey Mara,
I didn’t see it and haven’t even heard about it until you mentioned it, so I imagine that’s part of it. The other incident was highly publicized.
The other reason, which I think is more important, is that the Janet Jackson incident was PLANNED, while this one was totally unintentional as far as we know.
USUK, that isn’t just pregnant people. Now that I’m in my 50’s I can’t seem to hold my water as long either.
By Sunshine
December 9, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Hi Everybody!
Sunshine - as you enter your third trimester, I recommend DVDs as movie theaters don’t have a pause button. I am well into the third and really starting to feel the bowling ball strapped to my middle! I have had a GREAT pregnancy, and don’t mean to complain, but it is really starting to get hard to do VERY SIMPLE things like roll over in bed, or shave my legs, or pick up something I dropped off the floor, ect! Oh and this week the swollen feet have arived, fun fun! Oh well, I only have nine weeks to go!
Went and saw Australia this weekend (Baz Luhrmann is UNEQUIVOCALLY the best director in the world! Can you tell I am a fan?) it was simply beautiful! Had to really work hard at not getting up and using the ladies room, it was so long it could have used an intermission! Total Chick-flick, but I went with my mom and we both loved it! I highly recommend if you want a non Christmas epic drama!!
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
meh. we can pretty much see everything here (full frontal men and wimmen) … Americans are WAY too hung up on “the nekkid” …
meanwhile, US broadcasters have no problem showing all kinds of violence and mayhem
(UK also allows broadcasters to air all manner of cuss words after 9:00 - Gordon Ramsey is never bleeped out)
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
Chuck -
may I recommmend going decaf … it makes a HUGE difference … (seriously)
Sunshine -
keep your eyes on the prize. and remember, the sleep you’re not getting at night because you have to keep getting up to pee is just training for the little guy.
Mara -
I agree with chuck - sorta - folks like Focus on the Family and the group headed up by what’s-his-name Bozell raised an ungodly amount of ruckus about the “wardrobe malfunction” (even though you had to still-frame to really see anything), keeping it in the news and holding the network’s feet to the fire to do something about it.
and, as chuck also noted, the fact that it was not an accident at all didn’t help matters.
By Mara
December 9, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
Gale - Nah, I didn’t see it.
it was up on YouTube for a while, but when I went to grab the address for you they’d taken it down. :-(
Is that the dog or cow, or something that wants to be a reindeer?
I believe you’re thinking of “Olive, the Other Reindeer”. Not one of my faves, but not too bad. What I’m really looking forward to is “The Miser Brothers’ Christmas” (airing this Saturday!) because, like USinUK…I adore the Misers.
and Gale, don’t feel bad about missing the Christmas specials. You can get all the original christmas classics like Frosty, Rudolph, the Little Drummer Boy, etc. on DVD now. We plan on picking it up and maybe making it a Christmas Eve ritual…hunkered down on the couch with some gingerbread and “Irish” coffee for a couple hours of Xmas nostalgia.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
Another reason to not live in the UK
By Sunshine
December 9, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
*meh. we can pretty much see everything here (full frontal men and wimmen) … Americans are WAY too hung up on “the nekkid” *…
meanwhile, US broadcasters have no problem showing all kinds of violence and mayhem
I second that! I spent some time in Germany and was at first a little surprised about how much skin was shown, but very quickly it becomes no big deal, it is just the human body, we all have one, and it’s not like it was porn or something on the TV!
Chuck—how do you KNOW it was planned? Got some inside info you want to share with the rest of the group? ;-)
By Frustrated
December 9, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
Gale-
No, it was the Charlie Brown Christmas special… Charlie’s sister writes a letter to Samantha Claus…
By chuck
December 9, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
USUK,
may I recommmend going decaf
No coffe in the morning?!?!?!
I’d rather go the route of de”catheter”.
Thanks for the suggestion though. Seriously, I have cut back SOME on the caffiene, but I’m not sure I could teach without my morning “fix” of it.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Sunshine,
Chuck—how do you KNOW it was planned?
It was widely publicized afterward. I read it and saw it from a number of news sources. One, the WSJ quoted CBS position in their lawsuit against the FCC:
CBS apologized for the snafu, but said it shouldn’t be fined because it had no prior knowledge of what Jackson and her on-stage cohort, singer Justin Timberlake, had planned.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
Baz Luhrmann …
I la-la-LOVED Strictly Ballroom - fantastic movie!!
But I absolutely cringed at some of the things he did to R&J. Much of it was gorgeous … but the death scene at the end ruined the rest of the movie for me. 1 - in the play, there’s practically a party in the crypt, so many people are down there (Juliet, Romeo, Paris, Romeo’s servant, Friar Lawrence) - 2 - Juliet never sees Romeo alive - that’s why she’s so heartbroken when she kisses him and says his lips are still warm - she realizes she just missed him, 3 - Friar Lawrence tries to get Juliet out before she sees R’s body then runs away in cowardice when she decides to stay with Romeo … (although casting Pete Postlethwaite as Friar Lawrence was inspired - he’s brilliant)
Moulin Rouge was a fun, fluffy send-up of La Boheme.
if you say Australia is worth the time, I may watch it when it comes on pay-per-view … but the fact that he still didn’t know how he wanted to end it a week before it was released doesn’t fill me with a sense of confidence about his vision.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
chuck -
I used to be a huge caff-feind … I went to half-and-half … then went completely decaf. (basically, I tried going cold turkey but the headache just about killed me)
you’d be surprised how well you can do without caffeine if you try.
as for the full-frontal … it’s just a body. everybody’s got one.
what kills me (absolutely slays me) - there’s a show here “How to Look Good Naked” (I think it’s in the US, too). Regular, everyday people will voluntarily be filmed in the all-together for the intro clips and the features he does on cellulite, wobbly bits, etc …
regular people. nekkid. completely. on national TV. I keep thinking, “don’t these people have jobs?? and neighbors??” cuz, dog knows, I wouldn’t want my coworkers or random acquaintences to see me in the buff!!
By Ditto
December 9, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
I la-la-LOVED Strictly Ballroom - fantastic movie!
Ditto! absolutely great movie, the oldman(dad) dancing in the back room almost had me in tears. STAY WITH YOUR DREAM*
AUSTRALIA is highly recommended as well, I can agree with the critics’ criticisms but it is still a good EPIC movie, although heavily CGI-ed. Meant for BigScreen.
there’s also Priscilla, Queen of the Desert… or something like that.
By Sunshine
December 9, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Ahhhh Baz Luhrmann films…..sigh….one of the reasons this is a wonderful little marble to live on! Oh and Tom Robbins’ books!
Yes, there was quite a bit of poetic license taken with Will Shakespeare’s R+J but it was so amazing I must allow it. Doing the entire film in the full Shakespearean text? How many kids do you think had their first exposure to the infinite drama of his words through that movie? It was such a feast of the senses! And I love any move you can watch over and over and over and catch something new each time, which is another reason I love Moulin Rouge. Fast, quick, tight, well written dialog, with lots of fun one liners! Yes fluffy, but sooo much fun!
(Sorry to go on but…) and yes casting Pete Postlethwaite as Friar Lawrence was inspired - he’s brilliant so many choices of cast where amazing: John Leguizamo in both R+J and MR, and how could anyone forget the unforgettable Harold Perrineau as Mercutio? WOW! And in Australia the little boy who plays Nullah WAS AMAZING! He will be one to watch for years to come!
Australia-It’s worth a watch especially if you know what you are getting into, there were a lot of older people in the theater, which I assume is b/c it was set during WWII, it seemed that age crowd, and some of them were expecting more war, less love story, which I understand if you expect something different than what you get it can be a disappointment, but the videography alone is stunning! Just a beautiful movie, reminded me a bit of old John Wayne movies, just with MUCH better cameras!
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
Sushine -
Doing the entire film in the full Shakespearean text? How many kids do you think had their first exposure to the infinite drama of his words through that movie?
hey - I got my first full-frontal Shakespeare with the Dino DeLaurentis R&J and survived it just fine - kids these days will rise to the occasion if we just let them. Luhrmann could have done just as much - stayed just as true - with the cast he had. And, you’re right - it wasn’t just Postelthwaite that was great - the Mercutio death scene was amazing (call on me tomorrow and you’ll find me a grave man) and John Leguizamo is always fantastic.
btw - if you like Pete Postelthwaite, may I recommend one of my all-time favorite movies: Brassed Off … it takes place during the miners strike, but you don’t necessarily have to be well-versed in what was going on. It also stars a very young Ewan McGregor.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
ruh-roh …
troubled times for Illinois Gov. Blogovoehcyivhsich …
A 76-page FBI affidavit said the 51-year-old Democratic governor was intercepted on court-authorized wiretaps over the last month conspiring to sell or trade the vacant Senate seat for personal benefits for himself and his wife, Patti.
The affidavit said Blagojevich discussed getting a substantial salary for himself at a nonprofit foundation or an organization affiliated with labor unions.
It said Blagojevich also talked about getting his wife placed on corporate boards where she might get $150,000 a year in director’s fees.
He also allegedly discussed getting campaign funds for himself or possibly a post in the president’s cabinet or an ambassadorship once he left the governor’s office.
“I want to make money,” the affidavit quotes him as saying in one conversation.
U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald said in a statement that “the breadth of corruption laid out in these charges is staggering.”
“They allege that Blagojevich put a for sale sign on the naming of a United States senator,” Fitzgerald said.”
Among those being considered for the post include U.S. Reps. Danny Davis and Jesse Jackson Jr.
Blagojevich also was charged with using his authority as governor in an attempt to squeeze out campaign contributions.
http://news. yahoo.com/ s/ap/20081209/ aponreus/blagojevichcorruption_probe
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayum … if Patrick Fitzgerald is doing the prosecuting, I think we can all wave buh-bye to the Governor …
By chuck
December 9, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
USUK
Political corruption sucks no matter which party is involved.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
chuck -
Political corruption sucks no matter which party is involved.
testify.
oh. waitaminnit. I probably shouldn’t say that in this particular case.
how about - AMEN!!!
the truly sad thing is that for every Blagoviehcishcieich and Stevens there are hundreds of great people at the city/state/federal level who are working hard, honestly and ethically to make a difference.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
USUK
the truly sad thing is that for every Blagoviehcishcieich and Stevens there are hundreds of great people at the city/state/federal level who are working hard, honestly and ethically to make a difference.
Unfortunately, that number seems to go down every year. I’m really beginning to get jaded about the whole political process. It seems to me that most of them are more worried about re-election than in doing what is necessary, though unpopular, to fix the problems.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
chuck -
that number seems to go down every year
I guess I’m an optimist - I think the number is fairly constant (especially in the city/state level) … we just HEAR so much more about investigations now than we used to (internet, 24-hour news cycles, etc).
but, I do agree with you that these folks are constantly having to run for office - too bad they don’t feel they can do well by doing good, ya know what I mean???
heading home … I’ll pop in later.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
It will also be interesting to see if the democrats condemn him and ask for his resignation as quickly as the Republicans asked for that of Stevens.
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
It will also be interesting to see if the democrats condemn him and ask for his resignation as quickly as the Republicans asked for that of Stevens.
How long was it from the date of the initial allegations against Mr. Stevens was it before Republicans asked for him to resign?
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
Oh wait, I just found the link with that info. Apparently no one asked for his resignation until Stevens had already been convicted…if Blagojevich is found guilty I’d also be first in line to not only ask him to resign but also to through the proverbial book at him.
By Gale
December 9, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
too bad they don’t feel they can do well by doing good,
I knoww what you mean. Unfortunately, in the public arena, doing good probably means making some people unhappy, who will possibly be vocal in condemning your action, no matter how much good it really does. Sadly, public service is not something Americans really value.
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
but also to through the proverbial book at him
Yikes!!! This from an English teacher…oops! I meant “throw” of course.
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
but, I do agree with you that these folks are constantly having to run for office - too bad they don’t feel they can do well by doing good, ya know what I mean???
Second that…I don’t know why we can’t have uniform term limits for all public offices. 2 terms of 4 years each for every public office in the land with specific rules for campaigning limits as well: say 8 weeks to election day with each candidate being able to raise and spend a limit of $10 million. That way it’s fair and balanced and everyone has the same chance as everyone else.
By chuck
December 9, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
JJ,
If the governor maintains his innocence as did Stevens, I agree. Let the legal process work its way through all of the hoops before demanding his resignation. It seems in this case there is a smoking gun so to speak with the conversations being recorded, but he still has the presumption of innocence.
By Mara
December 9, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
JaJ - each candidate being able to raise and spend a limit of $10 million. That way it’s fair and balanced…
$10 million? That will barely cover the media costs for any of the major markets! Perhaps we could have a requirement for all media to donate a certain amount of prime time or column inches to each candidate? And then the candidates could use the $10M for other stuff.
And if you want ‘fair and balanced’ elections, you’ll probably have to offend the conservatives by resurrecting the “Fairness Doctrine”. Only then will we ensure that each candidate, no matter how unlikely or wacky, is able to reach the voters.
chuck - It seems in this case there is a smoking gun…with the conversations being recorded
I’m not carrying water for the man, but when did it become illegal to speculate about doing something illegal? I don’t see how he can be convincted if he never actually accepted money, appointed particular people, or manipulated the process in some way. Even if he’s recorded as promising to do such things, unless there’s some proof that he took any kind of action, it’s all just air and wind…isn’t it?
I’m guessing that his lawyers will use this kind of defense for the trial.
By USinUK
December 9, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
chuck - JJ - etc …
It will also be interesting to see if the democrats condemn him and ask for his resignation as quickly as the Republicans asked for that of Stevens.
2 different things -
1 - as JJ noted, the GOP waited until after Stevens was found guilty, and
2 - he was asked to resign by his peers - fellow members of the Senate (who nonetheless STILL stood and gave him glowing speeches and accolades on his last day) …
the RNC never said anything about Stevens, to my knowledge.
for this to be an equal thing, the Dem Governors would need to do something similar - and, while there is an NGA (Ntl Governors Assn), they generally don’t act in unison when it comes to their peers
JJ - NO TERM LIMITS!!! That’s just democracy for the “too damned lazy to get their butts to the polls and vote”. GAH!!! We have term limits every 2 years for the house, every 6 years for the Senate and every 4 for the Governor and President. You don’t like them? get your behind off the sofa and vote in the primary as well as the general.
By k
December 9, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
I think the assuption that only Republicans are greedy, lying, self-serving crooks who abuse power for personal gain — and the joy of screwing over America and laughing at us — is grossly unfair! (That would be like saying that only yankees are rude, or only southern hillbillies sleep with their cousins.) True, nobody does it better than the Resmuglicans, but kudos to the crooked Dumbocrats out there for trying to keep up!
EQUALITY!
By Gale
December 9, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
Perhaps we could have a requirement for all media to donate a certain amount of prime time or column inches to each candidate?
Only if that time/space is paid for out of the public cofers. Media in this country is private enterprise and they must be compensated somehow for the use of their product.
By Mara
December 9, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Okie-dokie. For my last post of the day I’d like to share this Emo Phillips joke. It was posted at a site discussing some of what atheists were doing for the holidays…which, as expected, had degenerated into a variation of “I’m right, God loves me, and YOU are goin’ to h-ll” and “There is no God, ya ignorant sheep” ad nauseum. Eventually even the Christians were picking nits against each other.
Anyway, here’s the joke:
“I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!”
He said, “Like what?”
I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?”
He said, “Religious.”
I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?”
He said, “Christian.”
I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?”
He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?”
He said, “Baptist!”
I said,”Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?”
He said, “Baptist church of god!”
I said, “Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?”
He said,”Reformed Baptist church of god!”
I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!”
I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off.”
By Ditto
December 9, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Mara.!!
I did not get that properly saved last time, but that won’t be happening again.
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
JJ - NO TERM LIMITS!!! That’s just democracy for the “too damned lazy to get their butts to the polls and vote”. GAH!!! We have term limits every 2 years for the house, every 6 years for the Senate and every 4 for the Governor and President. You don’t like them? get your behind off the sofa and vote in the primary as well as the general.
Whoa!!! Easy there kitten. We can have a difference of opinion but no need to libel/slander (which would it be on a blog? I guess libel since we’re technically writing here.) a guy as being lazy just because he’s got a different opinion. I DO happen to vote in the primaries and the general elections. However, it’s just not practical to motivate ALL the people who are apathetic about voting. I just think it’s more practical to have term limits…
By JustaJew
December 9, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
So I wonder what TOJ’s opinion is going to be about the Blagojevich deal? My money’s on a conspiracy between Obama and Blago wherein Obama would run for President thereby giving his senate seat to Blago to sell to the highest bidder. Afterward, they’d split the money and no one’s the wiser MMMMMMMWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAA!!!
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 8:15 AM | Link to this
JJ -
no need to libel/slander … a guy as being lazy just because he’s got a different opinion
I’m sorry if it seemed like a slabel (or a liander) - it wasn’t meant as one.
but this is one issue that makes me twitch. while I don’t ask you to agree with me, let me e’splain why I feel so strongly.
voting is something we take for granted - but people have risked their lives - they’ve been imprisoned - they’ve DIED - fighting for the right to vote. As a woman, I feel especially strong about it because we fought for so long to go to the polls and cast our votes alongside our husbands, fathers and brothers. Women went on hunger strike. They went to prison. They were beaten. And, of course, the same for the black community - they and the people who stood side-by-side with them risked their lives for the right to do one simple thing - go into a booth and say who they want to represent them in the seat of government.
this simple act - this one simple thing - people have died for it.
so, yeah, I do get a bit “het up” when I hear people talk about term limits - because so many of them don’t vote (but they’re first in line to b*h and moan about who wins/loses) - they just want to run out the clock and get the person out that way rather than DO something.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Boring this week. I think anyone that is out of a job is looking for a job and the rest of the country is just in wait mode. It makes me wish we could move Obama in before January and get things moving again. I didn’t want him to win, but I’d forgotten what a dead zone it is between election day and inaugeration day.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Hi Gale!!
I agree - boring this week - and it was a crap topic to begin with.
so … picking up on your idea of moving O in before January -
given that the lag between the vote and the inauguration was to give the Electoral College time to get to DC and have their vote, do you think the Congress should vote to change the timeline? should they change it to … say … (for example):
public vote is the first Tues after the first Monday (as it currently stands)
Electoral college is 2 weeks later (putting it the week of the 22nd at the latest)
Inauguration the first week of December
That will give time to address any hanging chad issues (hopefully never again), time for the incoming Pres to get his Cabinet in order and time to plan a bang-up Inauguration ceremony …
whattaya think?
By Gale
December 10, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
Good point about the Electoral College. Moving the date is probably a lot easier than abolishing it. Your timeline seems adequate to me. It looks like most of Obama’s appointments are made already. All that remains is congressional confirmation. Don’t you think that should be something they could address even before he takes office? True, they are, at least some are apparently working on the economy now. I think it would be important to hear what the new Secs. have to say.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Gale -
Your timeline seems adequate to me.
… and this is why I should be in charge … I may not be brilliant, but I do have common sense.
seriously, while I am all about tradition and love ceremony and all that - some traditions that were built around “well, it takes a week to get from the furthermost colony to the District of Columbia by Conestoga Wagon … ” … I think we’re pretty much past those days now and should take another look at some traditions (such as the lag between the public vote / electoral college vote / inauguration) to bring things up to date.
here in the UK, when you have a general election and the new majority party is declared, the new MP takes office that day, goes to Buckingham Palace and gets the official stuff with the Queen done immediately. my coworkers here aren’t so much appalled by what’s going on now as they are utterly perplexed.
By JustaJew
December 10, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Good Morning USinUK, no harm done. I wasn’t fired for your blog entry implying I’m lazy, hehe. Lord knows that’s probably all it would take these days though. Wanted to comment on your entry…
some traditions that were built around “well, it takes a week to get from the furthermost colony to the District of Columbia by Conestoga Wagon … ” … I think we’re pretty much past those days now and should take another look at some traditions (such as the lag between the public vote / electoral college vote / inauguration) to bring things up to date.
You gotta remember that the Republicans have been in charge of Congress more often than not and I don’t have to tell you how incredibly LOATHE they are to change ANYTHING that doesn’t impact their own pocketbooks so…maybe the new revolution will spark some real change.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
OMG … okay, this is the LINK OF THE DAY:
Here’s the game, folks - “who said it: Tony Soprano or Gov Blogodogobishciscich”
http://www. thedailybeast.com/ blogs-and-stories/ 2008-12-09/who-allegedly-said-it/
(I’d print it here, but the AJC censors would have a field day)
two words: potty mouth. if the f-word offends you, don’t go. you’ve been warned.
By Mara
December 10, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
Gale - It looks like most of Obama’s appointments are made already. All that remains is congressional confirmation. Don’t you think that should be something they could address even before he takes office?
I don’t believe that it can, because the new SENATE wouldn’t be seated yet. Also, even though Bush has asked his appointee’s to resign by noon on Jan 20th, most of haven’t yet so technically there are no openings needed to be filled. Either they’d have to resign immediately or Bush would have to fire them, since “president-elect” doesn’t actually have any power.
Speaking of political appointee’s resigning…did y’all read the story the other day about some Bush appointed Federal Attorney, the one who spent $12M to bust Tommy Chongs bong business, has announced the she will not resign and that the only way that Obama can replace her is to fire her? Did y’all read about that?
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
JJ -
glad we’re okay. :-)
as for the GOP vs. Dem issue - I hear where you’re coming from and for the most part agree, but I think this is something both parties could actually agree on if the Dems decided to make it an issue this year.
Mara -
Speaking of political appointee’s resigning…did y’all read the story the other day about some Bush appointed Federal Attorney, the one who spent $12M to bust Tommy Chongs bong business, has announced the she will not resign and that the only way that Obama can replace her is to fire her? Did y’all read about that?
I read that, too - more importantly, I hope the incoming AG read it and clears house. Seriously, after all the Gonzalez/Schlozman/Goodling shenanigans, they seriously need to clean out the Augean stables … top to frickin bottom.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
For such a progressive, young country, we are rather backward. Do you recall the Seuss book, If I ran the Zoo. I always think of that when I look at things that could be run so much better than they are.
I am presently wondering how many seats are bought rather than won in elections. (Illinois) One could argue that Obama bought the election with as much money as was spent. Although, clearly, he also won the election and I will not argue otherwise. However, on the occasions when a replacement representative must be appointed, I wonder how many are purchased rather than awarded on individual merit.
By ReplaceNeeded
December 10, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
the one who spent $12M to bust Tommy Chongs bong business, has announced the she will not resign and that the only way that Obama can replace her is to fire her
I sure hope she gets fired, I need to replace my bong.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
Mara, agreed. It just seems, re: USinUK’s proposed timeline, they could move things along in future if they cnahe the timeline. The most distant colony really can be in DC on the same day today.
USinUK, I think it was the Gov. I heard something about that one on the radio this morning. That guy’s name is worse learning how to pronounce than Medevev. Do you think we need to overhaul the governor process next? Probably not, I haven’t noticed too many bad govs staying in office long.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
but when did it become illegal to speculate about doing something illegal?
Mara, the charge is called conspiracy. Speculating about committing a crime is not illegal, but PLANNING to do so is called CONSPIRACY and is Illegal.
The highlights of the charges are listed below. You tell me if you think he committed a crime.
Democratic Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his chief of staff, John Harris, were arrested today in Chicago amid charges of political corruption. The two were charged with conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and solicitation of bribery. According to the Justice Department, the two men allegedly engaged in “ongoing criminal activity” including:
–Conspiring to obtain personal financial gain through the appointment to fill President-elect Barack Obama’s U.S. Senate seat. According to the indictment, Blagojevich sought a highly paid job at either a nonprofit foundation or labor organization, as well as a job for his wife on a corporate board where she would earn at least $150,000 a year.
–Blagojevich told an adviser he might “get some (money) up front, maybe” from an unnamed “Senate Candidate 5” if he named that candidate to the Senate. The candidate allegedly pledged to raise money for the governor’s re-election.
–An associate of “Senate Candidate 5” approached Blagojevich. “We were approached ‘pay to play.’ That, you know, he’d raise 500 grand. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise a million, if I made him (Senate Candidate 5) a senator,” Blagojevich said in a taped recording.
–In a Nov. 10 phone call with advisers, Blagojevich discussed getting a lucrative labor job in exchange for appointing an unnamed candidate whom he believed was favored by Obama. In a Nov. 11 conversation, Blagojevich acknowledged that Obama wanted an unnamed “Senate Candidate 1” for the seat but “they’re not willing to give me anything but appreciation. [Expletive] them.”
–Blagojevich also allegedly weighed appointing himself to the seat, complaining of being “stuck” as governor, as well as the belief he would be able to have more resources in the senate if he was indicted as a sitting senator versus governor. “if…they’re not going to offer anything fo any value, then I might just take it,” he said in a recorded Nov. 3 phone conversation, adding in a later conversation that day that he would “drive a hard bargain” for the seat.
–Blagojevich expressed a desire to remake his image for a potential 2016 presidential run. In the days following the election, he also discussed his potential appointment as either secretary of health and human services or energy, or various ambassadorships.
–Threatening to withhold assistance to the Tribune Co. regarding the sale of Wrigley Field to get members of the Chicago Tribune’s editorial board who had been critical of Blagojevich fired. Blagojevich informed Harris that state assistance would be withheld unless the editorial board writers were fired. He told Harris to tell Tribune officials that “our recommendation is fire all those [expletive] people, get ‘em the [expletive] out of there and get us some editorial support.”
–The Tribune’s deputy editorial page editor John McCormick was singled out by Harris as “the most biased and unfair.”
–A Tribune financial adviser assured Harris that changes would be made on the editorial board; as a result Blagojevich allegedly then held a series of talks with officials to provide financial assistance for Wrigley Field.
The mail and wire fraud charges carry a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison, while solicitation of bribery carries a 10-year maximum. Each count carries a maximum $250,000 fine.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
Just like you democrats to want to violate the Constitution. I bet you would not be so eager if Jeb Bush had been elected:
In 1937, the day of inauguration was changed by the Twentieth Amendment from March 4 to noon on January 20, beginning with Franklin D. Roosevelt’s second term in 1937.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
chuck -
Just like you democrats to want to violate the Constitution. I bet you would not be so eager if Jeb Bush had been elected
ease up there, buckaroo … we’re talking about workig within the law - if that means changing the constitution, then fine. but this 2-month lag is stupid in this day and age.
even if it means we’re stuck with another Bush.
although, after the Schaivo incident, I don’t think Jeb Bush has a prayer in hell of doing anything more than an East Wing tour of the White House.
Gale -
I think you missed the joke - copy/paste/delete spaces with the link …
By Mara
December 10, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
USinUK - I hope the incoming AG read it and clears house.
I don’t see that happening…but I’d be pleased if they were to actually CHARGE Goodling, Sampson, etc with the crimes they’ve committed.
Gale - I wonder how many are purchased rather than awarded on individual merit
quid pro quo, dear. It’s the way “politics” works. Almost every appointment (especially Ambassadorships…) are purchased in some way, whether with money, with past ‘favors’, with future promises, or simply aid and support during the campaign.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
Chuck, thanks for the timeline update. Since most people can fly today, rather than travel by train, I think it is time to move the date again. Even Hawaii and Alaska can make the trip in one day.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
Gale:
One could argue that Obama bought the election with as much money as was spent.
Isn’t $745 million an obscene amount to spend to be elected to a job that pays $400 thousand a year?
I have 2 problems with that. First, though I am in favor of not having any restrictions on giving to political campaigns, I AM IN FAVOR OF FULL DISCLOSURE OF ALL CONTRIBUTIONS. My biggest problem with the money that Obama collected is that the system is ripe for FRAUD especially for someone who “grew up” politically speaking in that famous Chicago culture of corruption. I don’t know how many of you are aware of this, but contributions of UNDER $100 do not have to be reported nor is any identifying information required to be recorded by the candidates.
This is a system that begs to be exploited. I believe that Obama did so. He made a conscious decision to NOT gather identifying information about those donors and also made the decision to take credit cards without verifying identities of the card holders. In effect, those donations COULD HAVE COME FROM ANYWHERE. Think about it. Who gained from an Obama win in the election? Based on his positions, one such group would be Muslims within and in the area surrounding Iraq who want America OUT OF THERE. Do you think a lot of those people have credit cards from American Banks? I bet they do.
I can’t believe that NO ONE from the left, (you know, all those who scream for OPEN GOVERNMENT and an END TO SECRECY), IS ASKING OBAMA TO DISCLOSE WHO HIS MONEY CAME FROM. To me that is a travesty. Collect as much money as you can, but DISCLOSE WHERE IT CAME FROM.
Second, Obama made a PROMISE to accept federal funding UNTIL HE REALIZED HOW MUCH MORE HE COULD COLLECT AND SPEND OUTSIDE OF THAT FRAMEWORK. To me, that seems awful hypocritical.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
Gale and USUK;
but this 2-month lag is stupid in this day and age.
Since most people can fly today, rather than travel by train, I think it is time to move the date again. Even Hawaii and Alaska can make the trip in one day.
I hate to disagree with you, (yeah right), but I think it sometimes actually should be an even longer period of time than it is. Our government is extremely complex. We have troops all over the world, at any given moment we may have detailed discussions ongoing with dozens of countries, and we have OVER 3000 people who are appointed by the President…not just the 15 cabinet members. I think the system we have in place works just fine, and has for over 200 years.
By k
December 10, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
Chuck, WTF are you babbling about? I purchased three Obama buttons for a total of SIX DOLLARS, and had to fill out disclosure paperwork. My name is on the list of donors, next to the total: $6.
Of more relevance is the fact that no one wins any significant election in this country without spending obscene amounts of money. This ensures that ONLY SUCCESSFUL FUNDRAISERS become contenders. There are plenty of smart, capable people of high integrity who would love to take on these difficult jobs, the pay for which is not all that nifty compared to what they can make in the private sector. But if you lack the stones, guts, or moral relativity it takes to be the TOP FUNDRAISER, then you don’t have a chance at the seat. Period.
That you applaud this “free-market” system makes me wonder WTF you are whining about. Obama IS the free-market president, and he did it by collecting $6 a pop from people like me.
Re: the “promise” you think he broke, let’s break it down, shall we? McCain refused Obama’s request to limit spending by 527 groups, the likes of which produced and paid for the infamous “swift boating” of John Kerry. How stupid would you have to be to say, “Yes, I promise to render myself helpless against personal attacks by YOUR FRIENDS who are not techinically tied to your own spending..” Seriously, McCain didn’t want to muzzle his friends, but he DID accept more than $210 million in campaign donations BEFORE accepting public funding. Also, the RNC was free to spend quite a boatload, and did. (Hair, makeup, and clothes, anyone?) Sounds like the “broken promise” howlers are picking and choosing, as usual.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
chuck -
I can’t believe that NO ONE from the left, (you know, all those who scream for OPEN GOVERNMENT and an END TO SECRECY), IS ASKING OBAMA TO DISCLOSE WHO HIS MONEY CAME FROM. To me that is a travesty. Collect as much money as you can, but DISCLOSE WHERE IT CAME FROM.
ahem. DEAL.
it’s the law that you don’t have to disclose small donations. you don’t like the law, lobby for it to change
as for Obama’s decision to not take public financing, McCain didn’t have to take it, either. he hamstrung himself - bad decision, as it turned out, wasn’t it? but, the fact is, even if he had decided not to accept public $$$, he didn’t have the grassroots network the Obama campaign had.
live and learn, my friend. live. and. learn. the Dems have a well-developed Net Roots - the GOP doesn’t. they’ll catch up, I’m sure, but until they do … eat our dust! ;-)
By Mara
December 10, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
chuck - Obama made a PROMISE to accept federal funding
actually, he didn’t promise anything except to try and reach an agreement with McCain on preserving the public financing of general election.
The exact quotes that fuel this distortion: from a 2007 Midwest Democracy questionairre on public financing - “If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.”
and then —
Feb 15, 2008 - At press conference in Milwaukee today, Obama had said, “If I am the nominee, then I will make sure that our people talk to John McCain’s people to find out if we are willing to abide by the same rules and regulations in respect to the general election.”
But, he added, “it would be presumptuous of me to start saying now that I’m locking myself into something when I don’t’ even know if the other side is going to agree to it, and I’m not the nominee.”
If he wins the nomination, Obama said, “I assure you that my folks and John McCain’s folks will sit down and see if we can arrive at a common set of ground rules.”
—
These are the actual words he said, unparsed by partisan nutjobs. It doesn’t sound to me like he’s promising anything other than to seriously consider it.
By Mara
December 10, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
chuck - It will also be interesting to see if the democrats condemn him and ask for his resignation as quickly as the Republicans asked for that of Stevens.
er…I think we (democrats) win this one. Obama has already issued a call for Blagojevich to resign. And nobody on this blog should feel bad if they don’t have the spelling down yet, neither does the AP. Sheesh.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
chuck -
I think it sometimes actually should be an even longer period of time than it is. Our government is extremely complex. We have troops all over the world, at any given moment we may have detailed discussions ongoing with dozens of countries, and we have OVER 3000 people who are appointed by the President…not just the 15 cabinet members. I think the system we have in place works just fine, and has for over 200 years.
and I respectfully disagree.
what we have now is roughly 9-10 weeks of the lamest of lame duck presidents (not Bush, per se - but the situation in general), where basically, no one cares what he says or does because they know that in a few weeks, he’ll be gone.
Obama was wrong when he said “we have one president at a time” - right now, we don’t even have that.
By k
December 10, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
USinUK, are you trying to say that President Bush is not, at this very moment, completely dedicated to doing everything in his power to resolve the current set of crises and challenges facing the American people and our nation as a whole? NO FAIR! I think he is, at this very moment, every bit as dedicated to those endeavors as he ever was.
By LaughofDay
December 10, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
That you applaud this “free-market” system makes me wonder WTF you are whining about. Obama IS the free-market president, and he did it by collecting $6 a pop from people like me.
but that free market thing is only good when people spend money the way YOU want them to spend it.
just like “activist judges” or drug consumers.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
k -
are you trying to say that President Bush is not, at this very moment, completely dedicated to doing everything in his power to resolve the current set of crises and challenges facing the American people and our nation as a whole?
um … no. not exactly. While I think he’s probably got one foot out the door (after all, they did just buy that new ranch in Dallas so he could continue his favorite hobby of clearing brush) … I do think the current situation does take up some of his day (more of Bernanke’s and Paulsen’s, though)
what I’m talking about is that the rest of the world right now couldn’t give a toss what Bush says/does - they’re all looking for the incoming president (as they would in this time of crisis whether ir was Obama or not)
By k
December 10, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
USinUK, sarcasm, dear. I don’t think he ever gave a sh— about us. Ever. Some might argue otherwise, but I never felt the love coming from the Bush White House, nor witnessed anything other than complete and total self interest, lies, and the fat finger of blame pointed everywhere but at himself, despite mountains of evidence. That’s just my observation, though. Others may have benefited from the benevolent magic fairy dust of big government contracts, bailouts, and “we won’t capture you if you promise not to attack again” promises, and think he’s done a swell job.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
k 12:53… Very funny. :-)
By Mara
December 10, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this
USinUK - they did just buy that new ranch in Dallas so he could continue his favorite hobby of clearing brush
actually, it was a $2M mansion in a wealthy Dallas neighborhood whose claim to fame is their neighborhood covenant which, until the year 2000, explicitely stated that “Said property shall be used and occupied by white persons only except these covenants shall not prevent occupancy by domestic servants of different race or nationality in the employ of a tenant.”
I really doubt Georgie will be clearing any brush away from the neatly trimmed hedges and manicured lawns. That is, after all, what servants are for.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
k -
USinUK, sarcasm, dear
daaaaaaaaaaang … it must be the cookie fumes … I totally missed the snark … (hanging head in shame from losing my touch)
the fat finger of blame pointed everywhere but at himself, despite mountains of evidence.
then, I guess you la-la-LOVED his interview last week when his biggest regrets were the mistakes made by other people …
By chuck
December 10, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
AND BTW Kimberly, forgiving the crudeness of your language, and your low level posting in general, IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ MY POST you would have seen that my first statement was:
First, though I am in favor of not having any restrictions on giving to political campaigns, I AM IN FAVOR OF FULL DISCLOSURE OF ALL CONTRIBUTIONS.
In other words, I think it is pretty plain that I am in favor of “the market system for financing campaigns”, but I also think that the American people deserve to know WHO CONTRIBUTED to his campaign and EVERY CAMPAIGN for that matter. I don’t think we NEED public financing, but if we have it and someone commits to using that vehicle, they should do so.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
mara -
actually, it was a $2M mansion
now it’s my turn … that was chock full o’ snark. I’ve always hated that they called his property in Crawford a “ranch” - it was a prop … a stage set to show that he’s “just like the little people and has to tend to his yard” just like everyone else.
bollocks.
he just didn’t want to look like the spoiled little rich kid that he is and always has been.
while I knew his new place was a mansion, I hadn’t heard about the covenant (I’m wondering if the “neighborhood watch” wears sheets and hoods … )
By k
December 10, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
Awww, chuck forgives me. How sweet. And I was asked to, and did, make full disclosure. What the law requires, (as it was explained to you earlier) may be something different entirely.
I disagree with our system, frankly. It excludes qualified candidates who aren’t fundraisers from being heard. I think we should allow and provide for EQUAL time on the airways for each qualified candidate, and limit the campaigns to just a few weeks, as is done, in part, in other countries. That way each candidate — mainstream and fringe alike — would not only be heard, but would be required to be succinct. We could then choose based on what these people have to say and not on how much advertising they can buy. But we don’t poke our touch screens with the system we want, we poke our touch screens with the system we have.
Mara provided the quotes to show that your “He broke his promise!” whining is bogus. Just like when your kids say “YOU PROMISED!” when all you really said was, “We can talk about it later.”
By chuck
December 10, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
Nice try USUK, but here is the FULL QUOTE. Dinengenuous to not include the first part, but I’ve come to expect that from you as you have done it many times before:
On November 27, 2007, the Midwest Democracy Network, an alliance of 20 civic and public interest groups based in Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio and Wisconsin, released the results of a questionnaire that they sent to all of the presidential candidates.The following question was on the questionnaire: If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in presidential public financing system?
You answered this question as follows:
OBAMA: Yes. I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests. I introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and am the only 2008 candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) bill to reform the presidential public financing system. In February 2007, I proposed a novel way to preserve the strength of the public financing system in the 2008 election. My plan requires both major party candidates to agree on a fundraising truce, return excess money from donors, and stay within the public financing system for the general election. My proposal followed announcements by some presidential candidates that they would forgo public financing so they could raise unlimited funds in the general election. The Federal Election Commission ruled the proposal legal, and Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has already pledged to accept this fundraising pledge. If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
Mara, Kimberly USUK,
I’m ashamed of all 3 of you. DON’T EVER AGAIN ACCUSE REPUBLICANS OF BEING HATERS, WITHOUT FIRST LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOURSELVES.
Those last few posts are vile and unforgivable.
Kimberly, do you REALLY believe that Bush had an agreement to NOT capture Bin Laden? You really need to get out more. If you believe that, we can’t possibly take anything else you say seriously. If your posts are based in your real perception of reality, then you really need to get professional help. NUTJOB.
Mara, Calling the President a racist is extremely LOWBROW for you. You should be ashamed of yourself.
USUK, you are beyond the pale in your pure hatred for the President. If you really believe the drivel and half truths that you spout, you should really stay in the UK.
By Mara
December 10, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
USinUk - I’ve always hated that they called his property in Crawford a “ranch”
Me, too. He’s got no cattle (or sheep) and he’s afraid of horses. What’n the heck does he “ranch”? There isn’t even a hay barn on the property, let alone any of the infrastructure needed for the raising of livestock. By rights it should be called “an estate” NOT “a ranch”.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
BTW
The Boston Globe, Denver Post, Public Citizen, USA Today and many others ALL said that Obama reneged on his promise. Not exactly conservative strongholds.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Sorry, It was Mara that posted the “PARTIAL QUOTE”
By k
December 10, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
The kind of person who capitulates to his adversary without requiring that the adversary also make concessions does not win elections. No compromise, no deal. Finally, a Democrat with a working pair!
By k
December 10, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, do you REALLY believe that Bush had an agreement to NOT capture Bin Laden?
I never said I had evidence of such, nor that it is true. However, since Bin Laden has not been captured, I cannot rule it out as a possible theory. You know, that and the fact that our flip flops are x-rayed every time we fly.
By Mara
December 10, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
poor chuck. Yes, if you only read the first line it does look like Obama is promising to take public financing. But if you read the entire answer, he still ends it by pledging only that he’ll sit down with the Republican candidate and persue an agreement. From what I understand, the lawyers and campaign representatives did meet but couldn’t come to said agreement.
I, not USinUK, posted that quote and yes…I only posted the RELEVANT part of it; the part where Obama actually makes a statement about what he WILL do.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Y’all clearly do not understand Texan. :->
By Mara
December 10, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Chuck - Mara, Calling the President a racist is extremely LOWBROW for you
Well, sure…if I had CALLED him one, which I didn’t. And frankly, I’m offended that you imply that I have. I’m sure you can cite the post where I did so, because otherwise you’d be a filthy liar. Are you a filthy liar, chuck?
And for your information, I don’t hate Bush. If anything, I hold him in contempt and disdain.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
No Mara, what he said was that if McCain agreed to pulic financing, he would do so as well.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
So I guess the DIRECT ANSWER to the question wasn’t relevent?
Question:will you participate in presidential public financing system?
Answer: Yes. I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns
By Archie
December 10, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
Unfortunately, that number seems to go down every year. I’m really beginning to get jaded about the whole political process. Yes, Chuck you’re right that the number of ethical politicians seems go down yearly and I think that’s why you have people as they did in this newspaper complaining about the unethical business practices of credit card companies and nothing is done because they buy off all the politicians. If politicians can’t protect the consumer then I don’t think they need to be in office.
I’m not carrying water for the man, but when did it become illegal to speculate about doing something illegal? I don’t see how he can be convincted if he never actually accepted money, appointed particular people, or manipulated the process in some way. Even if he’s recorded as promising to do such things, unless there’s some proof that he took any kind of action, it’s all just air and wind…isn’t it? You know Mara, I thought the same as I read this yesterday and as I looked at the news shows or talking heads I thought this dude will get nothing but embarrassment from this incident.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
I’m ashamed of all 3 of you. DON’T EVER AGAIN ACCUSE REPUBLICANS OF BEING HATERS, WITHOUT FIRST LOOKING IN THE MIRROR AT YOURSELVES.
C’mon, chuck, you had to know that you were taking your chances by posting today. Without TOJ to beat up on, the ladies are getting restless. (just kidding, ladies).
Though no one showed any interest in my trivia question last week, I’ll give the answer anyway: With the proceeds from The Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd financed which movie?? Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I thought that was an interesting tidbit.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
So Mara, what then was the purpose for these comments?
actually, it was a $2M mansion in a wealthy Dallas neighborhood whose claim to fame is their neighborhood covenant which, until the year 2000, explicitely stated that “Said property shall be used and occupied by white persons only except these covenants shall not prevent occupancy by domestic servants of different race or nationality in the employ of a tenant.”
I really doubt Georgie will be clearing any brush away from the neatly trimmed hedges and manicured lawns. That is, after all, what servants are for.
You may not have flatly stated that Bush is a racist but you CERTAINLY IMPLIED IT.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
chuck -
Nice try USUK, but here is the FULL QUOTE. Dinengenuous to not include the first part, but I’ve come to expect that from you as you have done it many times before
nice try, chuck … but if you’re going to sputter, rant and rave, please attribute the right posting to the right person - I never posted a quote about Obama’s promise. that was Mara.
-5 points for reading retention.
all I said was DEAL. McCain didn’t HAVE to take public financing - that was the decision he / his campaign made. bad decision, as it turned out.
as for USUK, you are beyond the pale in your pure hatred for the President. If you really believe the drivel and half truths that you spout, you should really stay in the UK.
um. are you serious??? my calling the president a spoiled little rich kid is “beyond the pale”???
criminey, did you SLEEP through the Clinton presidency when the GOP called him a murderer and a traitor (and that was on a good day).
please … I gotta know … what did I say that was so beyond the pale? tell me. I could use a giggle.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Hey Archie, you and Mara are both wrong about that. He is charged with CONSPIRACY. I’d be willing to bet that he does some serious time on this one.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Hey Brudog, How goes the back-crackin?
Come to think of it, TOJ and Jokeson are gone at the same time AGAIN?
HMMMMMMM.
By Mara
December 10, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Archie - I thought this dude will get nothing but embarrassment from this incident
Hi Archie! Yeah, I knew he’d been under serveillance for literally years so I couldn’t imagine he’d be so stupid as to actually do any funny bid’ness on the phone OR in his office. But from what I’m reading, I guess he did. Any thoughts on the rumors that Jesse Jackson,jr. was one of the people who either approached Blagovich or was approached by him regarding the Senate seat? I’m not sure which it was because, as you can see, the paragraph is pretty badly written…
Chicago Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., D-Ill., is the anonymous “Senate Candidate No. 5” whose emissaries Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich reportedly offered up to $1 million to name him to the U.S. Senate, federal law enforcement sources tell ABC News
By k
December 10, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
Republicans really hate to be out-testicled, don’t they? When was the last time a Republican capitulated an advantage in the interest of “fairness?” Anyone? McCain would not agree to muzzle the 527s, even though they operate outside FEC restrictions, and significantly affected the ‘04 election. Point (and election) goes to the man who stood his ground. That may not be the system you want, but it’s the system we HAVE.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
criminey, did you SLEEP through the Clinton presidency when the GOP called him a murderer and a traitor (and that was on a good day)
Although I’m generally not a conspiracy theorist, I do find it odd that a large number of people who were associated with the Clintons died under mysterious circumstances over the years. I don’t know whether it is true or not, but I’ve heard that no blood was on the park bench that Vince Foster was found on, indicating that his body was moved following his “sucide”.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
USUK, I actually corrected that at 2:33.
So you don’t think that the KKK comment was over the top?
By Gale
December 10, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Bruno, c’mon. THe discussion has been quite light for several days. Why would you accuse us of beating up on the guys?
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
chuck -
You may not have flatly stated that Bush is a racist but you CERTAINLY IMPLIED IT.
what a load of bollocks.
what she said was 8 years ago the neighborhood had a no dark people allowed policy
8 years ago.
good gravy - try not to bump into anything, chuck - that thin skin of yours must bruise like a grape.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Hey Brudog, How goes the back-crackin?
I took over a clinic about 2 months ago and have been able to increase the business by 50% despite the poor economy. The rain wiped us out this AM, however.
Come to think of it, TOJ and Jokeson are gone at the same time AGAIN?
Gandalf, also. It must be a conspiracy….. ; > }
Speaking of lame conspiracy theories, how about the folks who don’t believe that we landed on the moon, that it was really a Hollywood stunt??
By k
December 10, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Bruno, if you go to snopes dot com, the site that dispells urban myths and such, you can read more about it. Type in “clinton body count” for some rational perspective. I’m surprised at you, though, from a mathematical perspective. If you personally have met and or worked with tens of thousands of people, how many people that you know, statistically, would die in any given year?
Snopes also sheds light on the moon landing “hoax” and “hogzilla.”
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Bruno, c’mon. THe discussion has been quite light for several days. Why would you accuse us of beating up on the guys?
In case you haven’t noticed, TOJ takes a beating every time he appears here. You ladies are tough adversaries!! (That is meant as a compliment).
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
oh my flipping god.
do you know how many independent investigators looked into the vince foster suicide??? THREE. good grief, what does it take for you people???
as for the rest of the “body count” e-mail that was circulating in the 1990s, you realize more than half of it was the list of personnel that went down in the 1996 plane crash??? then, most of the other people on the list were tenuous connections, at best.
check snopes-dot-com sometime.
I’m really surprised you believe that crap, B-dog …
chuck -
So you don’t think that the KKK comment was over the top?
considering it had nothing whatsoever to do with the Bushes, no, I frankly don’t.
By AnotherBeliever
December 10, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Speaking of lame conspiracy theories, how about the folks who don’t believe that we landed on the moon, that it was really a Hollywood stunt??
it was a Hollywood stunt, I saw the video and in some of the raw footage you can see on the edge of the pic a sign that says “Flagstaff - 40 miles”.
By Gale
December 10, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Come to think of it, TOJ and Jokeson are gone at the same time AGAIN? Chuck, are you suggesting that they are the same person? Or maybe that they are only interested in bickering with one another?
I figured they were simply bored with our holiday musing earlier in the week.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Say what you will about Bush, but at least he doesn’t have a list of women who said that he forced himself on them like Clinton does.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
if you go to snopes dot com, the site that dispells urban myths and such, you can read more about it. Type in “clinton body count” for some rational perspective. I’m surprised at you, though, from a mathematical perspective. If you personally have met and or worked with tens of thousands of people, how many people that you know, statistically, would die in any given year?
Snopes also sheds light on the moon landing “hoax” and “hogzilla.”
I’ll check into it if I have time this afternoon, k. If you noticed, I didn’t make any accusations against the Clintons, just stated that it seemed odd.
Hope your having a nice day.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, I never said he didn’t have the RIGHT to break his promise, I just said that it was HYPOCRITICAL, because it WAS.
By chuck
December 10, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
IDK Gale, you never know on an anonymous blog. After all, TOJ has had at least 5-6 OTHER names that he has used. I’m just kidding actually but it is quite the coincidence, having happened at least 2 other times in the past few months.
USUK, You can sell that line somewhere else where they might believe you, but you know the truth and you ought to be ashamed for saying it.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
b-dog …
but at least he doesn’t have a list of women who said that he forced himself on them like Clinton does
a list of women who were conveeeeeeeeeeeniently bankrolled by Richard Mellon Scaife and other wingers …
not to mention … there’s a WORLD of difference between being a hound dog and a murderer
(you should know that, B-DOG!!) ;-)
By John Kerry
December 10, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
“Say what you will about Bush, but at least he doesn’t have a list of women who said that he forced himself on them like Clinton does.”
Yes, but you don’t want to know what the Skull and Bones Society initiation entails.
By k
December 10, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
I get it, chuck. For the next 8 years, you will take every opportunity to call Obama a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE, no matter what he does or tries to do to lead this nation, and no matter how much success he realizes on our behalf in doing so. This is because you, and only you, are a true, God-fearing patriot, and loyalty to the President only matters if he is a Republican. The rest of us are “nut jobs,” facts be darned. Got it. Filed it away. Thank you SO MUCH!
By chuck
December 10, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
See ya’ll later…haters.
By USinUK
December 10, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
chuck -
USUK, You can sell that line somewhere else where they might believe you, but you know the truth and you ought to be ashamed for saying it
get over yourself, chuck. the joke was about a “neighborhood watch” in a millionaire’s neighborhood. one that the Bushes don’t even live in, yet do you REALLY think that a bunch of Texas millionaires walk around their neighborhoods with walkie-talkies, jotting down license plate numbers???
criminey. what I said had nothing to do with the Bushes - you need to get a grip.
‘night all …
hasta la pasta
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Yes, but you don’t want to know what the Skull and Bones Society initiation entails.
Fill me in, John.
Although I’m definitely NOT a frat-type, I did join a professional fraternity while in chiropractic college. I still have the pieces of the board that they busted across my a-s-s.
By Bruno
December 10, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
For the next 8 years
You sure are optimistic, k!! Of course, there seems to be a dearth of good candidates on the Republican side of the aisle right now. Bush’s wild swing toward socialism has set the conservative movement back at least 20 years.
Frankly, I don’t care which side of the aisle good leadership comes from. Thus far, Obama has made a sharp turn toward the middle to the dismay of the far-left wingers who helped to put him in office.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 8:10 AM | Link to this
morning, Bru-dog!!
Bush’s wild swing toward socialism has set the conservative movement back at least 20 years.
you’re right - that hasn’t helped their “fiscal conservative/small government” cred.
however, I think they’ve lost more people (moderates) by their pandering to the religious right. get rid of them and the GOP might actually have a chance. I know a lot of republicans who voted Obama this year because they are sick and frickin tired of the bible-thumpers dictating policy.
Frankly, I don’t care which side of the aisle good leadership comes from. Thus far, Obama has made a sharp turn toward the middle to the dismay of the far-left wingers who helped to put him in office.
(((sigh))) Obama hasn’t made a sharp turn anywhere - it was the right that defined him as a socialist, not the left and definitely not the candidate, himself. He’s being true to the person he was and has always been - and he’s finding the best people for the job, which is exactly why we hired him.
:-)
By Mara
December 11, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
USinUK - Obama hasn’t made a sharp turn anywhere - it was the right that defined him as a socialist, not the left and definitely not the candidate, himself. He’s being true to the person he was and has always been - and he’s finding the best people for the job, which is exactly why we hired him.
Hear, hear!! I remember shaking my head more than once at the shockingly hysterical (and pathetically ignorant) rhetoric coming from the right even though Obama was running as a pragmatic, left-leaning centrist. Sure, out on the fringes of the left-o-sphere there were people who let their own hopes color their perceptions, but MOST of us knew what we were getting when we voted for him. And frankly I’m pretty pleased with his choices so far.
The only thing I worry about is whether his desire for a “reconciliation” government will lead him to keep folks he shouldn’t. That idiot Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) is suggesting that Obama should not only keep McConnell and Hayden to run the intelligence programs, he should re-authorize the torture programs! Frankly, I don’t know how, even if he wanted to, he could do that without losing the trust of the American people.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
Mara -
The only thing I worry about is whether his desire for a “reconciliation” government will lead him to keep folks he shouldn’t. That idiot Silvestre Reyes (D-TX) is suggesting that Obama should not only keep McConnell and Hayden to run the intelligence programs, he should re-authorize the torture programs! Frankly, I don’t know how, even if he wanted to, he could do that without losing the trust of the American people.
well, the fact that he wouldn’t hire John Brennan is a good indication that he’s not going to stay on the same path and will get rid of the idiots who ran the torture program.
as far as Reyes … let’s just say he’s not the sharpest crayola in the box: http:// public.cq.com/ public/20061211_homeland.html
I have a friend who had an interesting theory on why Obama was keeping Robert Gates - to bide his time until Wesley Clark is elligible to serve as Def Sec (in 2 years, I believe). Interesting theory. He and I both like Clark, so I’m happy to cheer the theory on, but I don’t know if it registers on the reality-o-meter …
By Mara
December 11, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
I never thought about the Gates-Clark link…but you could be right! I have a pretty high opinion of Clark’s judgement and that sounds like a great idea (Wes Clark was my choice in the ‘04 primaries) and sorta hoped Obama would tap him for the VP slot. I’d be very pleased to have him running Defense for us.
Did you see where Obama has picked a Nobel-winning physicist as his Energy Sec.?
By Frustrated
December 11, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
Good Morning ladies!!!
OH, jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the waaaayyyyyyy
By Mara
December 11, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
USinUK, thought you might find this amusing, or at least prescient of how the story is going to play out -
I’ve been watching cable news this afternon [sic]—I know, get a life!—and you know, Barack Obama comes from the same state as Rod Blagoyevich. That is really suspicious! What did he know and when did he know it? This is the first major scandal of the Obama Administration! He has to explain himself. You notice he hasn’t had any press conferences since this thing broke…oh, wait. He’s having a press conference tomorrow…And Patrick Fitzgerald said that Obama is no way involved in this? I’ll bet! That’s not what Sean Hannity thinks! It’s a coverup for sure. Will Obama be the first President to be impeached before he’s inaugurated? - Joe Klein, Time Magazine
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Hello Ladies!
Wow, I need smart women like you as friends in my real life! Wes Clark was my pic for the ‘04 primaries too, and I was soooooo sold on the idea of him as Mr. Obama’s VP! (Thought it would rip the rug right out from under anyone who said he didn’t have enough Foreign policy experience!) I hope, hope, hope he brings in Mr. Clark!
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
Yea. Obama hasn’t made any changes in what he has promised. LOL
This is why I don’t come here anymore. After spending days trying to convince USinUK that Palin couldn’t see out of the back of her head and even after pointing out obvious lie after obvious lies in that turkey story, I realized that some people will never be any smarter.
Ya’ll have a great clueless, goosestepping Christmas. I’m sure Obama is going to make everything all better.
By JustaJew
December 11, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
I’ve been watching cable news this afternon [sic]—I know, get a life!—and you know, Barack Obama comes from the same state as Rod Blagoyevich. That is really suspicious! What did he know and when did he know it? This is the first major scandal of the Obama Administration! He has to explain himself. You notice he hasn’t had any press conferences since this thing broke…oh, wait. He’s having a press conference tomorrow…And Patrick Fitzgerald said that Obama is no way involved in this? I’ll bet! That’s not what Sean Hannity thinks! It’s a coverup for sure. Will Obama be the first President to be impeached before he’s inaugurated? - Joe Klein, Time Magazine
Mara, this was the kind of thing that I speculated that TOJ would bring to the blog earlier this week. TOJ and Hannity…birds of a feather…
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
Hey! Welcome back … :-) … where were you yesterday?? I was home making 12 dozen Christmas cookies and could have used your holiday spirit! (at about hour 5, I started losing my enthusiasm)
Mara -
Joe Klein … GAH. Mr. “I didn’t write Primary Colors! I didn’t!! Did Not!! … well, okay, I did” … haven’t his 15 minutes ended yet??? Swampland readers pretty much use him as their whipping boy - he’s so wrong so often, that it’s like watching a game of pinata where no one has to wear blindfolds …
heehee … come to think of it, does that remind you of anyone on this board??? … heeheehee …
andm yay! another Clark fan!!! (we’re everywhere, so it seems) … I was hoping he’d be a Veep pick, too, but I understand why he went with Biden. I guess we’ll have to wait a couple of years to see what happens …
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this
A Vain, Pompous, Brown-noser Meet the Real Gen. Clark
Anyone seeking to understand the bloody fiasco of the Serbian war need hardly look further than the person of the beribboned Supreme Allied Commander, General Wesley K. Clark. Politicians and journalists are generally according him a respectful hearing as he discourses on the “schedule” for the destruction of Serbia, tellingly embracing phrases favored by military bureaucrats such as “systematic” and “methodical”.
The reaction from former army subordinates is very different. “The poster child for everything that is wrong with the GO (general officer) corps,” exclaims one colonel, who has had occasion to observe Clark in action, citing, among other examples, his command of the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood from 1992 to 1994.
While Clark’s official Pentagon biography proclaims his triumph in “transitioning the Division into a rapidly deployable force” this officer describes the “1st Horse Division” as “easily the worst division I have ever seen in 25 years of doing this stuff.”
Such strong reactions are common. A major in the 3rd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division at Fort Carson, Colorado when Clark was in command there in the early 1980s described him as a man who “regards each and every one of his subordinates as a potential threat to his career”.
While he regards his junior officers with watchful suspicion, he customarily accords the lower ranks little more than arrogant contempt. A veteran of Clark’s tenure at Fort Hood recalls the general’s “massive tantrum because the privates and sergeants and wives in the crowded (canteen) checkout lines didn’t jump out of the way fast enough to let him through”.
Clark’s demeanor to those above is, of course, very different, a mode of behavior that has earned him rich dividends over the years. Thus, early in 1994, he was a candidate for promotion from two to three star general. Only one hurdle remained - a war game exercise known as the Battle Command Training Program in which Clark would have to maneuver his division against an opposing force. The commander of the opposing force, or “OPFOR” was known for the military skill with which he routinely demolished opponents.
But Clark’s patrons on high were determined that no such humiliation should be visited on their favorite. Prior to the exercise therefore, strict orders came down that the battle should go Clark’s way. Accordingly, the OPFOR was reduced in strength by half, thus enabling Clark, despite deploying tactics of signal ineptitude, to triumph. His third star came down a few weeks later.
Battle exercises and war games are of course meant to test the fighting skills of commanders and troops. The army’s most important venue for such training is the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, California, where Clark commanded from October 1989 to October 1991 and where his men derisively nicknamed him “Section Leader Six” for his obsessive micro-management.
At the NTC, army units face a resident OPFOR that has, through constant battle practice coupled with innovative tactics and close knowledge of the terrain, become adept at routing the visiting “Blue Force” opponents. For Clark, this naturally posed a problem. Not only were his men using unconventional tactics, they were also humiliating Blue Force generals who might nurture resentment against the NTC commander and thus discommode his career at some future date. To the disgust of the junior OPFOR officers Clark therefore frequently fought to lose, sending his men on suicidal attacks in order that the Blue Forces should go home happy and owing debts of gratitude to their obliging foe.
All observers agree that Clark has always displayed an obsessive concern with the perquisites and appurtenances of rank. Ever since he acceded to the Nato command post, the entourage with which he travels has accordingly grown to gargantuan proportions to the point where even civilians are beginning to comment. A Senate aide recalls his appearances to testify, prior to which aides scurry about the room adjusting lights, polishing his chair, testing the microphone etc prior to the precisely timed and choreographed moment when the Supreme Allied Commander Europe makes his entrance.
“We are state of the art pomposity and arrogance up here,” remarks the aide. “So when a witness displays those traits so egregiously that even the senators notice, you know we’re in trouble.” His NATO subordinates call him, not with affection, “the Supreme Being”.
“Clark is smart,” concludes one who has monitored his career. “But his whole life has been spent manipulating appearances (e.g. the doctored OPFOR exercise) in the interests of his career. Now he is faced with a reality he can’t control.” This observer concludes that, confronted with the wily Slobodan and other unavoidable variables of war, Clark will soon come unglued. “Watch the carpets at NATO HQ for teeth marks.”CP
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Mara -
oh, and, in case you haven’t seen it, the “liberal” (bahahahaha) “The Note” is singing the same tune: http://blogs. abcnews.com/ thenote/2008/12/the-note-121008.html
to quote Eric Alterman, “what liberal media???”
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
JustaJew
Don’t pretend that you know me. I have no respect for you or your half witted opinions. i don’t believe in conspiracies. I believe in facts. it’s imbeciles like you who think everything is a conspiracy.
By JustaJew
December 11, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
This is why I don’t come here anymore. After spending days trying to convince USinUK that Palin couldn’t see out of the back of her head and even after pointing out obvious lie after obvious lies in that turkey story, I realized that some people will never be any smarter.
What’s the big deal with this story anyway? So Palin is at a place to pardon a turkey and some other turkey who didn’t get pardoned was getting offed in the background. SO WHAT!!! What did everybody think the turkey was being pardoned from??? Palin was at a turkey farm where they, clutch the pearls, SLAUGHTER TURKEYS!!! Get over it!
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
JustAJew
Stop whining. You sound like an idiot.
By Mara
December 11, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
JaJ - TOJ and Hannity…birds of a feather…
allow me to I present Exhibit “A”…
TOJ - Obama hasn’t made any changes in what he has promised
(sigh) you do know that Bush is still president…right? And that Obama isn’t? Don’t you think you should wait, say, an hour or so AFTER he gets sworn in before you start sneering about his failed presidency and broken promises?
Hi Sunshine :^)
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
JustaJew
What’s the big deal?
I rest my case. You are an imbecile.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
nice link you included, there, TOJ.
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Mara
I haven’t sneered at his presidency, only his already broken promises. For once, get it right.
By k
December 11, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Thanks, TOJ, for cutting and pasting that utterly biased opinion piece from counterpunch dot org. I’ll bet discrediting any high-ranking military personnel who didn’t march in lock step (gooses anyone?) with the Bush family new world order (PNAC) was high on the git-er-done list of the Rovian gang. Nicely done.
I am also a Wesley Clark fan for several reasons, not the least of which was that BOTH my military sweeties came home from the Kosovo conflict unscathed and fully intact, as did nearly all the American soldiers, excepting a couple of unfortunate accidents. But hey, I value existing life, so maybe I’m biased.
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
USinUK
What? It’s not as reputable as MSBNC claiming that an interview “in it’s entirety” starts with the interviewee ANSWERING a question? After that one, you really don’t have any credibility as far as picking out reputable sources.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Ya’ll have a great clueless, goosestepping Christmas. I’m sure Obama is going to make everything all better.
man. here only a few minutes and already being an a*******hat …
I think that’s a new land-speed record. well done, TOJ. nice way to take what’s been a very pleasant week and pi$$ all over it.
By Mara
December 11, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
JaJ - What’s the big deal with this story anyway?
er…it illustrates her complete oblivion to what’s going on around her? Her airy dismissal of the tender sensibilities of “the chil’den” who were watching Tom Turkey bleed out while Daddy’s Favorite Politician giggles and preens for the camera?
yes, it was at a turkey farm where turkeys are slaughtered probably ever day. So? You don’t see Governors signing pardon’s for criminals while other criminals are being fried in the background, do you? It’s a question of taste, a question of judgement, and a question of her ability to present herself as anything OTHER than an air-headed ditz.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
Mara -
It’s a question of taste, a question of judgement, and a question of her ability to present herself as anything OTHER than an air-headed ditz.
as the kidz say … “epic. fail.”
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
k
Yea. Kosovo. Now that was a battle. LOL!!!
I’m glad they survived. The conflict started in the early 1980s. It was being watched by NATO for almost 20 years before they finally acted.
From Wikipedia:
During the conflict, roughly a million ethnic Albanians fled or were forcefully driven from Kosovo. Altogether, more than 11,000 deaths have been reported to Carla Del Ponte by her prosecutors.[31] Some 3,000 people are still missing, of which 2,500 are Albanian, 400 Serbs and 100 Roma.[32] Ultimately by June Milošević had agreed to a foreign military presence within Kosovo and withdrawal of his troops.
In March 2004, race riots started up again and in 2008, when Kosovo declared it’s independence, it became just a matter of time until the situation will require NATO intervention again.
And this is the kind of military that Wesley Clark (The Supreme Being) would like to command. Great liberal press coverage, get nothing done.
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
It’s always so lovely when TOJ shows up! Just rainbows and sunshine! Makes you feel all warm and good inside from everything he says and the way he says it! Wow, he just makes a person feel so good (snark!)
Anyways, yeah, you think Wes Clark has a big ego, well show me any 4 star general of the armed forces who doesn’t have an ego! And anyone can write a smear piece, and about war games, oooohhhh! As always, you never site your source TOJ. I wonder why? Might it be b/c the website this is from has a reputation for:
Franklin Foer of The New Republic and political commentator Steven Plaut have written articles arguing that CounterPunch is biased against Israel and the USA, charging it with publishing “anti-American”, “anti-Israel” and “anti-Semitic” views.[3][4]
CounterPunch has also been criticized for publishing articles by authors such as Alan Cabal and Daniel A. McGowan who have defended the free speech of Holocaust deniers such as Ernest Zundel. According to the critics, these authors have also sought to legitimize the views of such Holocaust deniers.[7] (From Wiki—Counterpunch is TOJ’s Source of info)
Yeah, what an unbiased news source! Way to go TOJ, way to bring journalistic fairness to the table, yeah you!
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
Mara
What it illustrates is the media’s contempt of the most popular Governor in the United States. It is not her responsibility to direct the shoot. It is the network’s responsibility to present her in a fair and honest light, which is very apparent that they did not.
But here again, i am trying to convince the most indoctrinated hate filled group of people I have ever encountered to give someone who just might not believe in baby killing to open their minds and their hearts to the truth.
Wasted enough of my valuable time.
Believe that the Gov. of Alaska is an air-headed ditz.
You and your half witted fellow hens are the air headed ditz that will turn your back on a fellow woman who has achieved more than any of you could ever hope of achieving to support yet another air headed pretty boy that the democrats have told you cares about you.
Believe what you want. Once again, I do understand my limitations.
By DisgustedwithBalkansAffair
December 11, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
nice way to take what’s been a very pleasant week and pi$$ all over it.
what else could be expected?
The Balkans - Christians killing Moslems, all the West could say for years was “Complicated Affair, those Balkans”. Moslems started getting weapons from Iran and were starting to be able to fight back, and were able to kill Christians, and suddenly it wasn’t so complicated in those Balkans after all, and the West/NATO was able to move right in, under the guise of protecting the Moslems.
Great thing to bring up there, “The Balkans”.
By k
December 11, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
TOJ, would you be happier about it if someone had effed up and gotten a bunch of American soldiers killed by way of poor planning and underequipping them? How ‘bout if our soldiers spent six or seven years occupying a hostile land on a vaguely-defined “mission,” being sitting ducks for locals to fling IEDs at them at every opportunity just to get them to go away? Good thing there are SOME leaders who’ll give you what you want. Lucky you.
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
USinUK
How dare you preach at anyone about civility.
You blathering hypocrite. You may notice that I have not been here for quite a while, but I was still the topic of conversation. Expect me to appear to defend myself and don’t expect any more respect than you have given me.
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
WOW TOJ, did Santa bring you a heart for Christmas?!?!?! I am sooooo excited for you, now you can have all those feelings us other humans have like empathy, and concern for victims of war! And since you are so into quoting numbers for war causalities here are some more for you:
From March 2003 to August 2007 Opinion Research Business survey estimate: 1,033,000 violent deaths as a result of the Iraq conflict. (www. opinion.co.uk/)
The Iraq Body Count (IBC) figure of 88,851 to 96,976 civilian deaths reported in English-language media (including Arabic media translated into English) up to 30 September 2008 includes civilian deaths due to coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence. The IBC site states: “it should be noted that many deaths will likely go unreported or unrecorded by officials and media.”[13] For the 4th year of the war between 20 March 2006 and 16 March 2007 the Iraq Body Count reported approximately 26,540 civilian deaths.[14](Wiki-Iraq body count)
*Los Angeles Times: “At least 50,000 Iraqis have died violently”—as of June 2006. “Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths…. *
US ARMED FORCES 4,119 dead as of July 15th 2008. As of March 2008 there were 8,914 wounded requiring medical air transport. 20,416 wounded did not require medical air transport. Of all the wounded 13,109 were unable to return to duty within 72 hours. Medical air transport was required for an additional 8,273 for non-hostile injuries, and for 23,052 for diseases or other medical conditions. (Wiki)
Yeah, we are really glad you are concerned about the Kosovo citizenry. Hope you feel the same way about the Iraqi citizenry and OUR SOLDIERS!
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
DisgustedwithBalkansAffair
Hey d*ckhead. I didn’t bring it up.
Keep me out of the daily gossip and i’ll stay away.
Get it, half wit?
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
TOJ-How dare you preach at anyone about civility! Go away! You have said ‘you don’t come here anymore’ well keep true to your word.
I have experienced from you directly You may notice that I have not been here for quite a while, but I was still the topic of conversation so go whine about it somewhere else. You are the one that is bull headed and unable to see anyone’s perspective but your own. And as you said yourself: don’t expect any more respect than you have given me (and the rest of us here!)
Good day!
By The Other Jack
December 11, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
Sunshine
Do you actually have something to say? Are yoiu really comparing a “war” with a tiny military with WWII used equip[ment to a real war with the fourth most powerful military machine on the planet, and you have the stupidity to actually want to compare causalities?
Stick to your hen house gossip. Understand your own capabilities.
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
How dare you preach at anyone about civility.
put the pearls away, honey - they don’t go with your outfit.
and I’ll dare any time I danged well please, thankyewverymuch. even on my worst day, I’m 100x more civil than you have ever been.
You may notice that I have not been here for quite a while, but I was still the topic of conversation.
geez-o-pete, aggrandize much??? much as it may pain you, you haven’t been “the topic of conversation” … we’ve talked loads about Cmas, and a little about politics - but there have only been a couple of passing references to you (mostly noting how pleasant it’s been in your absence)
Expect me to appear to defend myself and don’t expect any more respect than you have given me.
I would be shocked - shocked - if you EVER valued anyone else’s opinion as highly as you value your own.
By TOJ's doctor
December 11, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Lithium is your friend. Reunite today.
By Frustrated
December 11, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
Where were you
US- I have been sewing picture banners and making favor bags for the b-day party this weekend…..on top of that, we had a water pipe burst, so I have been without water for a couple of days…EEKS…
I have never been so happy to be able to wash my hands freely this morning…and turn on the dishwasher!!! Amazing at how many dishes pile up in two days..
I am joining the baking season this weekend…. I am making cakes and buckeyes…YUMMY! Sorry I haven’t been around
Oh, I want a Hippopotamus for Chirstmas, only a Hippopotamus will do
By Mara
December 11, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
You and your half witted fellow hens are the air headed ditz that will turn your back on a fellow woman…
She’s got a uterus, big deal. So does Caitlin Upton. As does Paris Hilton and Jessica Simpson. And, for that matter, so does Anne Coulter (despite her protruding adams apple). What’s your point? That every feminist should automatically defend and support anyone with the “right” plumbing, despite their obvious…challenges?
By LaughoftheDay
December 11, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
mostly noting how pleasant it’s been in your absence
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
Hey Mara, while I completely agree with your plumbing statement, ESPECIALLY about Ann Coulter, I have been wondering what is going on with that Adam’s apple for a while!! I say we all make a pack to ignore the troll! We can disagree without the name calling nastiness and if TOJ wants to act a fool, let him, lets just ignore his post, just a suggestion though, not trying to be the boss!
By Mara
December 11, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Ah jeez. Fred Phelps and his in-bred band of christofreaks are at it again -
A Kansas-based church that has blamed deaths in Iraq on U.S. tolerance of homosexuality has asked Gov. Christine Gregoire’s [Washington State - ed.] office to approve a “Santa Claus will take you to hell” message to display among other religious statements in the Capitol’s third-floor hallway.
The Westboro Baptist Church’s message would be near a Nativity set, three signs mocking atheism, and an atheists’ sign that celebrates the winter solstice while also taking a shot at religion as “myth and superstition” that enslaves minds, all in the state Capitol’s third-floor hallway.
The first part of Westboro’s proposed message, according to Spokesman-Review reporter Rich Roesler:
“You’d better watch out, get ready to cry, You’d better go hide, I’m telling you why ‘cuz Santa Claus will take you to hell. He is your favorite idol, you worship at his feet, but when you stand before your God He won’t help you take the heat. So get this fact straight: you’re feeling God’s hate, Santa’s to blame for the economy’s fate, Santa Claus will take you to hell.”
By Mara
December 11, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Sunshine - I say we all make a pack to ignore the troll!
I Second! All in favor?
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
Oh dear loard! First of all why, oh why is a Nativity set, three signs mocking atheism, and an atheists’ sign that celebrates the winter solstice any where near the state Capitol’s third-floor hallway?!?! WTF? I mean some wreaths and some red bows, ok, but what the heck is up with X-mas wars on state property? Second of all ummmm “you’re feeling God’s hate”, what a great message to the non-believers out there that you claim you are trying to ‘save’! Jeeez-o-peez! What a GREAT holiday message for the kiddies! These people should have their heads examined!
By Gale
December 11, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
The third floor hallway seems like a good place for all the wacky stuff; up where the kiddies don’t see it and the adults are mature enough to take it at face value.
Thanks for taking care of the troll while I was at lunch.
By JokesOn
December 11, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
Come to think of it, TOJ and Jokeson are gone at the same time AGAIN?
Just busy moving and kind of over the blog routines. The last round was just too much.
Good luck to all.
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
oh and before I get called out for it: we should make a PACT, not pack, opps! :-)
By Mara
December 11, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
Sunshine, my personal fave was “Santa’s to blame for the economy’s fate” LOL!
And did you notice that the anagram of Santa is (cue Chruch Lady) “SATAN”?!!
By Mara
December 11, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
er, that should be “CHURCH” lady, not chruch…
By Gale
December 11, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, which round? The bile-ridden rants or the Christmas fluff from the resident hens, and Bruno?
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
LOL, (cue Chruch Lady) “SATAN”?!! Yeah, I grew up Southern Baptist, my dad was in the ministry too! I went home for Christmas one year and went to the adult Sunday School class cause the whole family was going to Church (of course!), well that week’s lesson plan was all about Santa being the Devil, and that if you teach your children about Santa you are teaching them to devil worship!! I couldn’t take the nonsense, I got up and walked out. Even my Dad was shocked when I told him about itm he went and talked to the teacher guy about how that IS NOT what we should be talking about in Sunday School class the week of Christmas. Apparently he had gone off the gird and into his own lesson plan that week. It was too bizarre!
By USinUK
December 11, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
Frustrated -
I am joining the baking season this weekend…. I am making cakes and buckeyes…YUMMY! Sorry I haven’t been around
what’s a buckeye??
well done on all your banners and stuff - especially dealing with the burst pipe - GAH!!
Mara -
DANG! you beat me to the punch on the Santa / Satan thing … :-P
Sunshine -
Second of all ummmm “you’re feeling God’s hate”, what a great message to the non-believers out there that you claim you are trying to ‘save’! Jeeez-o-peez! What a GREAT holiday message for the kiddies! These people should have their heads examined!
it’s just like the guys who you turned down in high school who turned around and said you were a b*h, anyway. yeah. like that makes you really want to go out with them, then!!!
Gale -
Thanks for taking care of the troll while I was at lunch.
how DARE you leave us??? HOW DARE YOU???!!!
(sorry - I haven’t heard that expression used outside of cheesy melodramas - it tickled me so much, I think I’ll throw it around the rest of the evening just for giggles)
By Gale
December 11, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
Kudos to your dad, Sunshine. A little perspective is needed. My eldest aunt and child got into the Jehovah’s Witness thing and didn’t celebrate Christmas. When they visited on Christmas day, my dad felt so bad that everyone except my cousin’s 3 year old had presents, that he went out and bought the little guy a toy truck to play with.
By Mara
December 11, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
Sunshine, you and I seem to be having a heck of a time spelling/typing correctly today :^)
By HaAH
December 11, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this
And did you notice that the anagram of Santa is (cue Church Lady) “SATAN”
I KNEW those western-European civilizations were out to destroy the youth of America. I just knew it. Snag them with some good-ole Devil Worshippin’.
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
Kudos to Your dad, Gale! That would just be sad! Everyone else with presents and not the little guy, like he understands what is going on?!
Yeah, no matter your belief’s there is a time and place for everything. I think if you have what some consider “extreme” views on some religious subjects you are entitled to them, and can even have a class or what ever at your place of worship. But right around Christmas time a lot of folks who don’t normally go to church, come in, looking for a little hope, a little kindness, some holiday music ect. (They call them folk’s C&E Christians= Christmas and Easter Christians) I am not religious but I can see that if you have a church and you are trying to “reach out” to the community, beating them over the head with Santa/Satan and “you are going to hell” messages most likely won’t draw in the masses! Just my 2 cents!
By k
December 11, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Sunshine, the last time I went to church on Christmas Eve, I was terribly disappointed in how uninspiring the message was. Having spent many years as a practicing Southern Baptist, I was looking for something to lift me up, not the lame non-message we got as we were shuffled in and out in time for the next crowd. Didn’t even get to sing Silent Night, and I thought, “I left the sofa for THIS?”
I didn’t want to teach my kids the Santa lie (or stupid fairy tales), but everyone around me had a hissy fit. “You HAVE to! You HAVE to!” I still feel guilty about it. Now we understand: “I don’t know why we do this, but we do, because it’s just what we do.” As long as there are presents and candy, it seems to be enough. Knowledge is power, and I arm the children with truth and critical thinking. In the end, that’s what will get them through, not mystical beliefs in magical wonderments. (I was disappointed that the Easter Bunny myth lasted as long as it did… HELLLOOOOOOOOO? Re-tar-do…. )
By Mara
December 11, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
okay, this whole Washington State Holiday display thing is getting even more hilarious. Evidently somebody petitioned to add a Festivus display and Gretchen Carlson’s head almost exploded. The two guys she hosts Fox & Friends with thought it made great fodder for jokes, so she went crying to good ol’ Bill “rub me with falafel” O’Reilly. And as expected, he’s OUTRAGED at the INSULT to Christmas, not to mention nostalic for those days of yore when atheists didn’t exist and Christians ruled the world. (ok…/snark)
LOL! This is MOST amusing…
you’ll have to add your own http:www to the address —-
rawstory.com/news/2008/OReillyAtheistswanttorevokeChristmas1211.html
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
I have a friend who refused to teach her children that Santa was anything other than a myth, (which is her choice) but it makes for some interesting questions from the children, she has 3. She and I were Christmas shopping with her 5 year old last year and we walked by the large Santa Display with the line of kids to see Santa, and she was very quietly explaining to him that they might believe in Santa and not to start arguments or what not with people who believe in him. He asked all the typical “why, why, why” questions that kids do, and then stopped short, put his hands on his hips and with great perplexity asked (LOUDLY) “THE CHILDREN ENJOY BEING LIED TO?!?!?!” I had to hide my laughter and so did she, he was soooooo shocked!
By k
December 11, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Hahaha! Kids are smarter than television would have us believe. Well Sunshine, I know I enjoy being lied to… “You’re soooo beautiful, baby….” Bring it! I did perpetuate the myth through early childhood, but with no enthusiasm or elaborate effort. Now I always stuff a CD or something in my stocking, and say, “WOW! Smashing Pumpkins! How did Santa know I wanted this?” At least I get something.
I would definitely tune in to watch Gretchen Carlon’s head explode! Man, they’d be scrubbing makeup off the walls for weeks! Haha!
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
K-(I am sure I will take a beating here for this but…) mystical beliefs in magical wonderments is what I think most religion is, and it is a bit funny to me that the same friend that won’t teach her kids about the tooth fairy or Santa or the Easter Bunny has no problem teaching her kids that every single bible story is true and that the sky is filled with streets of gold and real gates made out of pearls! But, she is a good mom, and to each their own!
By Sunshine
December 11, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Bye-Bye party people, off to job #2!
By Gale
December 11, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
I don’t know about you folks, but htere are ALWAYS presents under my tree from Santa. He always brings me fun things for Christmas; never socks or kitchen tools.
By Frustrated
December 11, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
US-
A buckeye for baking purposes is just a peanut butter ball dipped in chocolate…
An “actual” buckeye is a nut… Mostly found in Ohio….Hence the Ohio State Buckeyes
By JustaJew
December 11, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this
Mara,
I can understand that choosing a location that’s drenched in blood from turkey slaughter may not be the best place for your image. I guess they could have brought a turkey to the Governor’s office for the pardoning but you know I’d be willing to bet that 99% of Alaskans are saying “What’s the big deal?” and as far as the kiddies are concerned, on the off chance that a 3 to 12 year old was watching a news broadcast then mom and dad have some splaining to do but I think at 12 most kids know that the burger didn’t appear on their plate from thin air. To use a phrase from USinUK: I cry bollocks on TOJ’S argument that she’s not a ditz just because she had an 80% approval rating…so did Hitler at one time, so did Stalin and Putin for that matter. Approval is based on opinion and of course opinions are like a*******holes, everyone’s got one and they all stink!!!
By Bruno
December 11, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Obama hasn’t made a sharp turn anywhere - it was the right that defined him as a socialist, not the left and definitely not the candidate, himself. He’s being true to the person he was and has always been
Sorry, USinUK, I can’t agree with your statements. In addition to openly calling for “sharing the wealth” via taking money directly from the “rich” and giving it to the “poor”, Obama campaigned for nationalizing health care and proposed a litany of new government programs ranging from “free” college tuition to creating 500,000 new “green” jobs. Sounds like socialism to me.
By Bruno
December 11, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
it is a bit funny to me that the same friend that won’t teach her kids about the tooth fairy or Santa or the Easter Bunny has no problem teaching her kids that every single bible story is true and that the sky is filled with streets of gold and real gates made out of pearls!
Personally, I never believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, OR the fairy tales told in church, even as a young child.
I don’t know why we do this, but we do, because it’s just what we do.
Sometimes I wish that I could just go along with all the mindless rituals without questioning them at every turn. I think that I might be happier in the long run.
By Archie
December 11, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Obama never promised free tuition at all. “will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students.” Based on a 4,000 dollar tax credit and students had to do so much community service to get it. So nothing was free. Also, Bush is still the president, that’s right George Bush is still president of the USA. Also I still think Mara and I were right yesterday in that the governor of Illinois will get off with nothing more than embarrassment because as far as I know he talked corruptly but he didn’t actually do anything, I mean talk is cheap.
By Gale
December 12, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this
I still think the ajc needs to inform the webmaster that 7am means 7am EST.
By USinUK
December 12, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Frustrated -
An “actual” buckeye is a nut… Mostly found in Ohio….Hence the Ohio State Buckeyes
that, I knew :-)
as for the snack - my mom just used to call them “peanut butter balls” not this fancy-schmancy “buckeye” business ;-)
Bruno -
I can’t agree with your statements. In addition to openly calling for “sharing the wealth” via taking money directly from the “rich” and giving it to the “poor”, Obama campaigned for nationalizing health care and proposed a litany of new government programs ranging from “free” college tuition to creating 500,000 new “green” jobs.
sheesh - he made one off-hand comment to some jerk-wad and suddenly it’s a major plank in his platform?? ah. no.
as for nationalizing health care, he talked about reforming it, but not fully nationalizing it (definitely not as I know true national health care here in the UK)
as for creating 500K new “green” jobs - that’s no more “socialism” than Reagan creating 500K new jobs in defense through his deficit spending program in the 1980s
By Gale
December 12, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
I won’t be ready to call Obama on the carpet until after the first 100 days, after the innaugeration, that is. I probably won’t agree with everything he wants. I don’t disagree with everything either, so far. Do you think Dashle is the right guy to head up the health care innitative?