AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > November > 21 > Entry
Should the government bail out automakers, too?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
About five seconds after the $700-billion financial bailout passed, politicians asked about saving automakers, too. And then there were the “underwater” mortgage-holders. And really, would it be fair to let Circuit City die?
The “where-does-it-stop” roulette is complicated when it comes to our important domestic auto industry — but not that complicated. For years, the Big Three automakers have known this day would come. For years, they rushed shoddy-quality cars to dealerships, trading away brand value for immediate cash. They eventually resolved quality problems but repeated the same pattern of grasping the quick-cash fix with SUV gas guzzlers and trading off development of increasingly popular hybrids. They also entered into insanely pricey labor contracts loaded with “future” costs (like pensions) that would have to be paid eventually. Well, the day of reckoning is now here, and the U.S. taxpayer is in a pickle.
I realize the ripple effect a Big Three failure would cause further pain for our economy — and would personally hurt many close friends in my husband’s hometown near Flint. However, I’m appalled that the Democratic leadership and President-elect Obama are even considering extending the financial-sector bailout to carmakers. It would be one thing to try to help the industry retool, manage a painful process of drastic expense reduction, and become competitive: that would be reasonable, if still anti-free market. But most current proposals would simply bail out automakers dying due to inability to meet demand, as well as excess capacity and unsustainable expenses.
In 2005, for example, GM produced three times the cars as Toyota in North America — but had five times the number of production workers. GM had 77 plants (all unionized) to Toyota’s 12 — only three of which were unionized. And unionization makes a huge cost difference. Once benefits, pensions and such are factored in, GM’s average hourly labor cost is an eye-popping $73 versus Toyota’s $48.
As Dr. Russ Roberts, professor of economics at George Mason University put it in an interview, “Historically, many companies are driven by bad decisions. If GM dies it will be painful, but it may die anyway and with a bailout, it will die with my money. Let the resources and energy and creativity flow into companies that can actually do something with them.”
Rebuttal
As we slide into the holiday season, several industries have their hands out like a bunch of Salvation Army bell ringers. Like many, I’m disinclined to toss coins into the auto industry pot. Why throw good money after bad decisions?
Here’s why: an additional loan right now could save the industry and its millions of jobs until 2010, and that timing is key. If we only think in the short-term, helping Detroit seems like a waste of money. Yet think of 2010, and you’ll see something else: opportunity.
According to Chris Isidore at CNNMoney.com, “billions of dollars in annual savings won in the 2007 labor agreement with the United Auto Workers union kick in that year, including shifting the responsibility for retirees’ health care costs to union-controlled trust funds.” Moreover, 2010 is the year most experts predict that the plug-in hybrid technology will be ready for market. Do we really want to let GM, Chrysler and Ford collapse right when they can be part of this vanguard? In addition, Gen. Wesley Clark, former supreme allied commander of NATO, points out that, like the improvements in armored fighting vehicles in Iraq, future automotive innovations will have crucial military applications. It’s essential to our national security, he explains, that a “vibrant car industry” remains in the USA.
Don’t get me wrong — right now Detroit is like an annoying relative I’m seldom pleased to hear from, in dire need of rehab. Yet I’m not ready to kick the Big Three out of the family just yet, with so many factors to consider. Sure, part of me would rather see them go bankrupt than hit up Uncle Sam for a loan, but the likelihood of the Big Three rising from those ashes is slim. Meanwhile, the government—that would be you and me — will wind up with retirees’ pension and health care obligations anyway.
There’s clearly no perfect solution here, but perilous times call for taking the long view and finding opportunities in chaos. Through a contingency-laden loan, we buy Detroit two more years, one last opportunity to join the technological and environmental leaders in this industry. If Motown manages to succeed after an extreme makeover, we all benefit. And if not? Then let it be just another Circuit City.
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Comments
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this
No one wants to bail out the Big Three. However, the economic implications aren’t “further pain for the economy”, as Shaunti puts it.
The implications are this: 250,000 jobs lost directly. Roughly 4 million jobs lost from the tangential companies that provide parts, etc, to the automakers.
Goldman released a report today saying they expect unemployment to rise to as much as 9% when this recession is at its worst (during the 1992 recession, unemployment was 7.6% at its worst). If we dump as much as 4.25 million additional people on the unemployment lines, what do you think is going to happen, then???
more to the point - if you think the Credit Crisis is bad now??? just wait until we have 1 or all 3 of the automakers defaulting on their bonds:
The risk arises in part because so many financial institutions hold bonds issued by the automakers. Moreover, an estimated $290 billion in credit-default swaps, which are contracts that function like insurance policies, have been written on that debt, according to the leading clearinghouse for such trades.
In a research note issued yesterday, J.P. Morgan Chase analyst Eric J. Selle suggested the automakers’ failure would mark “Credit Crisis Part II,” noting that bonds issued by General Motors, Ford and their lending companies make up about 10 percent of the high-yield bond market and that automakers represent one of the largest sectors in finance for banks.
Their troubles, Selle said, could have “magnified effects” in the credit-default swaps markets and “pose ramifications” for the ailing credit markets.
(snip)
“I think the systemic risk would be dramatic across the entire economy,” Chrysler chief executive Robert L. Nardelli told Congress this week. “The lenders, the financial institutions would be at total risk relative to being able to recover their investments in this industry … . There would be tremendous impact on the financial institutions.”
http://www. washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/20/ AR2008112003593.html?hpid=sec-business
(TOJ - this isn’t an I-told-you-so … but … well … I told you so …)
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Unfortunately, I would simply never buy an American car, at least not what I have seen for the past 20 years. They are unattractive and years behind all the other auto-makers, even the ones that the big three own that are located in other countries like Volvo or even Jaguar.
Mercedes owned a large part of Chrysler for a while, but just couldn’t deal with the unions, so they dumped it. In that time, Chrysler made some pretty impressive jumps in technology, but Mercedes faced the anti-robotic stances of the UAW with every yearly retooling so they simply got tired of the “American way”
A few years ago, I visited the GM Assembly Plant in Doraville. It was an amazing thing to see. I could literally watch a mini-van go from a simple frame to a finished van. But it was obvious that there were many aspects of the assembly process that didn’t make sense. The vehicles would just fly through certain sections where some very advanced robots were welding and then assembling parts with incredible speed and accuracy.
Then the vehicles would enter the “human section” where overweight, non caring workers would occasionally interrupt conversations with fellow workers long enough to turn a wrench or staple a piece of upholstery. Then there were the breaks. it seemed that the line would be stopped more than it would be moving and everyone would immediately pour out to the parking lot to snack, make phone calls and according to my nose: smoke a doobie or two.
It doesn’t matter if we hand them 25 billion or 250 billion. We are printing money that we don’t have anyway. We can’t build cars that will compete with the rest of the world. Period. Andrea talks about the Chevy Volt coming out in 2010. Who cares? I wouldn’t want my family to be in a Styrofoam car powered by a dangerous electronic field producing American, union made piece of crap. That sounds harsh, but that’s a fact. American cars absolutely stink.
The unions will not conceed their anti-robotic stance. The old saying of never buy a car that was built on a Monday or a Friday is only applicable if you are buying an American Car. That’s almost half the cars that are made.
The car industry is destined to become what the rust belt is, a group of rusted, abandoned buildings that only reflects a great time that was once America. Give them the money. Who cares, It will feed a few workers and as USinUK says, keep the bond market from collapsing, at least for a year or two. As Micheal Moore recently said, this is the death of Capitalism. We had a good run, now bend over.
With a government completely dominated by a special interest pandering political party, the unions will get what they want. We won’t. The cars will still stink. Seventh grade dropouts that happen to have an uncle in the union will still make $54/hour, while waiters with degrees will bring them food.
It is very simple. We got the government we deserve. They will not stand up to the unions so our cars will always stink, be behind the times and our highways will be packed with great little fuel efficient land missiles made in other countries, zipping around the poor suckers who bought American pieces of crap.
Sure. Give them the money. Whatever they want. It doesn’t matter.
By Mara
November 21, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
I don’t think we should have bailed anybody out. Not AIG, not Bear-Stearns, not mortgage lenders. Ticked me off.
Instead of giving the bailout money to private (for-profit…) companies, they could have given 150K or so to every adult citizen and come out better. Most people probably would have used it to pay down their mortgage, use it as a down-payment on a home, pay off credit cards/bills, pay for education, buy a car, or some other debt-shrinking use. The money would have gone to the companies regardless, but it would have helped in so many ways to have done it differently.
As for automakers…they’ve worked hand-in-glove with the petroleum companies for so long, let THEM provide the bailout. Way back when we discussed the issue of how automakers short changed R&D, purchased and shelved ideas for non-petroleum based engines, fought CAFE standards, and basically forced gas-guzzlers onto the buying public. Now that the day of reckoning is here, let them go begging to Exxon-Mobile. to BP, or Shell…after all, if it weren’t for the automakers complicity, these petroleum companies wouldn’t have been raking in those record profits.
By k
November 21, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
They should have been re-tooling years ago and they know it. The Japanese have been kicking their butts for decades, and yet they did the same sh-t over and over, and accepted lack-luster results as “business as usual.” The decision makers were still getting their bonuses, private jets, and vacation homes, so it was easy for them to accept that their products weren’t the best, as long as somebody, somewhere, was buying them.
These people should publicly repent in utter shame — NOT because the act of contrition would make people feel better (what does that solve?), but because it would help jump start the initiative to truly move forward with new technologies and processes that are needed to make the United States an economic leader again. “URGENT! CHANGE DIRECTION NOW! Get everyone on board!”
As to the portion of the blame that belongs to UNIONS, I suggest the following approach: Find a better way to solve the problems unions solved, such as workers being able to afford health care and retirement, and THEN you can eliminate at least some of the problems unions caused, such as the mandatory draining of a company’s resources into non-productive expenses.
What if Americans could actually afford health care without Blue Cross and Kaiser extorting their employers for money they don’t have? What if it weren’t necessary for Chrysler to dump billions into the pockets of insurance companies and shady investment brokers? What if Americans with pre-existing conditions or chronically-ill dependents could actually afford to get out there, innovate, and start their own businesses instead of clinging to a corporate mommy, afraid to leave? Perhaps the catalysts of innovation that made this country great could wake up from their comas and start churning again. New century, new needs, new opportunities. The “good ol’ days” aren’t coming back, and all those who keep wishing they would, throwing themselves to the ground as obstacles of progress, need to get over themselves yesterday.
NO BAILOUT until they embrace change and demonstrate forward progress! Zip, zilch, nodda for more of the same, I say.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Sorry about the jabs this week. It has been a rough one.
There is a line in the new Indiana Jones movie that says: he is entering a time in his life where life has stopped giving him things and is now taking things away.
I’m there.
Hope you have a good one. I haven’t driven the Z in a couple of months and i am thinking about pulling off the car cover and driving to the beach this weekend. I NEED to see a palm tree.
By BROWNE
November 21, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
I am usually with you Andrea, but on this one issue I am in agreement with Shaunti (sigh). GM FORD and CHRYSLER for years sought to capitalize off of their truck and full size cars with those thirsty V8’s and they neglected the smaller fuel efficient cars because they were not profitable. GM even went so far as to produce an electric car for lease only and then promptly destroyed those cars when the leases were up. (EV1). Why should people have to “baby” Detroit cars when you can “abuse” Toyotas and Hondas and regularly get 200, 000 miles from them? The UAW has effectively put the last nail in the coffins of the big 3, but they did not do it by themselves, the same executives that have their hands out now signed those contracts as well. Let them fail and just admit that the Japanese are clearly better at building cars. We have already conceded electronics, and we are all the better.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
I have to agree with Shaunti on this one. Yes, I know lots of workers and ancilliary businesses will feel the flack. It will effect everyone. We cannot sustain this industry the way it is run. Even if we give them money, they ar no selling cars. It is not competitive. Other American idnustries have suffered this same fate. The plants were never modernized to the level of foreign plants and so lost out to the competition. Why? Because the money earned went into pockets and not into the business to modernize and innovate. Changing body style is not innovation. Because Americans had money and credit to burn, we ate up inferior products. I am like TOJ and won’t buy an American car. I actually drove several the last time because I was buying a small pickup and Americans supposedly make the best. Maybe in the full size category, but Detroit does not make a good small pickup.
Has anyone seen the British show Dragon’s Den? It shows small business startups looking for money from venture capitalists/investors. Often, even when a product is good, the investor tells them, I’ll invest in your business, but you have to let me run things because you are never going to be able to grow my money on your own. That is what the US automakers must hear. They have been making bad decisions for decades. Why should we believe they will suddenly change their ways because they faced a bad market?
I would give them money with very serious requirements. One, no body changes for the next 5 years at least. Designers should be working on technology, not style. Two, renegotiate union contracts or close plants. Union leaders should also be seeing the writing on the wall. They have contracts? Guess what? Contracts can be renegotiated. Three, more use of robotics. Toyota has entire plants run by robots. There are probably more things we should require, but I am not a manufacturing specialist.
By Archie
November 21, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Frankly I would agree with Shanti’s commentary but she blames things on unions. It’s as if she can’t help but spout the party line rather than just sticking to her valid points. Shanti makes a good point when she talks about quality and gas guzzlers a real good point and to be honest this 2010 thing that Andrea mentions doesn’t sound too convincing but instead of Shanti just sticking the with the valid common sense argument about how American automakers went after the quick buck and and created poor quality cars she goes off into the republican party line that wants to get rid of all unions. The problem is the way americans do business in that so many try to hustle and shark money away from people and when people find another product that they can get without all the gouging and hustling they go for it. My answer is no do not bail out the automakers and let the chips fall where they may because the regular guy that screws up his finances doesn’t get bailed out you have many more of them. Although jobs would be lost, a lot of jobs would be redesigned and that may be necessary with or without unions. There’s incompetence on every job and you can’t fix it by bailing folk out and it hurts in the long run because you can’t get around dishonesty,gouging, and incompetence. Like Shanti says if people don’t want the cars you can’t fix that and if demand is not there then make less cars but build them to last. American business people have to stop trying to trick and cheat the consumers and that goes for the banking industry too but guess what we’re bailing them out too.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
I hadn’t thought about that, k. Yes, being free of the corporate environment because health care is otherwise provided would be a great change to spur innovation and new businesses. Other than a weekly paycheck, those benefits are a big reason many people stay wage slaves, myself included. I don’t much use them, but it is a comfort knowing I would have help if I got sick. And I question how much help that is anymore. I hear too many stories of inadequate coverage even when there is coverage.
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
There is a line in the new Indiana Jones movie that says: he is entering a time in his life where life has stopped giving him things and is now taking things away. I’m there.
(((HUGS)))
life hasn’t started taking things away - if you look around you, you’ll just see it’s giving you different things. buck up, my little buckaroo … I know you’ve had a crap time of it lately but things are never as bad as they feel, I promise.
if you do drive down to the palm trees, take off your shoes and put your toes in the sand (and preferably have a nice, cold beer in one hand - scotch just doesn’t work on the beach).
By BROWNE
November 21, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
To save face from having to admit that I agree with Shaunti, I will say this about the Republican Mantra. You can’t have it both ways. People should not cry about government intervention and oversight and be screaming about the free market when the times are good because no one is watching and then come running to the government for handouts when you fail. It should not happen for the Big Three and it should not have happened for the insurance and banking companies. And someone please tell me how do you decide which companies to bail out and which ones should be left to fail?
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
K
Good post. But the fact is that every year, all American Car plants shut down for about 6 weeks to re-tool. The problem is that the union standards that say that a very large percentage of any car be assembled by a human was established in the 1960s when robotics were crude at best.
I just read a UAW report from 2005 that said An investment of $278 million at SHAP will overhaul the body shop and improve the paint shop and assembly areas, including new tooling and about 620 welding and material handling robots. (www. uaw- chrysler . com/ resources / news. cfm? NewsID=1218 )
That is to replace old robots, not expand their use in the manufacturing process.
The rest of the world is making cars in the 21st century. We are building cars like they built them during the Nixon administration. How will we ever compete?
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
As for the unions killing the auto industry … as I’ve said in the past, if we just nationalized our health care system, we’d lose the biggest labor cost while, in a single blow, be making our companies competitive with the Japanese and European markets.
and, while we’re at it, how about we take a look a CEO salaries, hmmm??? Toyota’s CEO makes $1M/year … the big three:
When asked if they’d be willing to make a sacrifice and work for $1 for a year, here’s what Mulally had to say:
During a hearing Wednesday, a member of the House Financial Services Committee told Rick Wagoner of GM and Alan Mulally of Ford that reducing their annual salaries to $1 would be an important symbolic gesture as they lobby for $25 billion in loans funded by tax dollars. Chrysler’s Lee Iacocca worked for that wage when his company was bailed out by the government in the 1980s.
“I’m willing to do what I’ve been doing,” Wagoner said, saying he has already accepted a significant wage decrease and given up other forms of compensation. But he stopped short of saying he would accept a $1 salary.
Mulally said: “I understand your point about the symbol. But I think, not just for me, but we’re trying to fill a skilled and motivated team.”
Pressed on whether he would work for $1 a year, Mulally said, “I think I’m OK where I am.”
http:// money.cnn.com/ news/newsfeeds/articles/ djf500/200811191506DOWJONESDJONLINE000837_FORTUNE5.htm
Wagoner (2007 total compensation: $15.7 million).
Mulally (2007 total compensation: $21.7 million).
Toyota’s CEO makes $1M/year
oh, yeah. unions are the biggest problem.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Thanks for the sentiment, but what is being taken away at this point won’t ever be replaced.
Try to keep this light, but what the hell is the deal with baby boomers killing themselves? Have you heard of any stats? It seems like everybody I know, knows of somebody that offed themself.
By Monica
November 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Mara, I suggested that same bailout plan a few blogs ago. I’d even take 20K per adult. I was happy to see that my local rep voted against the bailout. It makes me sick. Those of us who play by the rules get burned.
You said that most people “probably” would use the funds responsibly. How do we know that Wall Street is using that money responsibly? Where has that money gone so far? Who knows?
Here’s some advice for the Big Three: tell your CEO’s to sell their private jets.
By Lyrazel
November 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
No one industry should be bailed out unless all businesses can be bailed out. If we bail GM then we bail Ford… if we bail Ford we must then bail airlines, we bail out airlines we must bail out home builders, if we bail out home builders we must bail out city governments who put their pension funds into stocks and now have no way of making payroll. So, if we bail out them who got us into the landfill of economic prosperity we should stop taxes from being collected next year by the IRS so that we can bail out everyday americans.
Since its friday and the topic is cars……………>
A penguin is having car trouble and takes his car to a repair shop. The repairman says it will be 30 minutes before they can access what is wrong. So the penguin goes across the street and buys a nice vanilla ice cream cone. Well penguins are rather sloppy when they eat ice-cream and there were no napkins in this parlor and when finished he goes back to the repair shop where the repairman says the penguin has blown a gasket. “No, the penguin says, “Its ice cream!”
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
btw - here’s the numbers for what GM paid out in health care benefits in 2004:
GM paid out $5.2 billion for health care benefits in 2004 and expects to pay out $5.8 billion this year (2005).
(looking for something more recent)
imagine if we could get rid of those expenses …
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The Exec wages are way out of line, but girl, our cars suck. I don’t know of any other way to say it. I keep my beautiful little Z under a car cover and drive my 1993 Volvo 960 Wagon. It never breaks, gets 25mpg, carries 7 people and has an incredible stereo. I paid $1,500 for it four years ago. Why would I, or anyone else want to buy a Buick? 100,000 miles and they die. The Volvo is working on a quarter million miles and since the driver’s seat was replaced before I bought it, there is nothing wrong with it.
The crazy thing is that Ford now owns Volvo. I wouldn’t take a truck load of new Fords for my 15 years old Volvo. The new Volvos are even better. The same CEO that makes all that money is over Volvo, too.
It is the American manufacturing process. It is 40 years behind the rest of the world. Is it the Union’s fault? I think it is. You probably don’t. We disagree. Say it ain’t so.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
USinUk
I just found this:
The researchers found that from 1999 to 2005, the overall suicide rate in the United States rose 0.7 percent. However, among middle-aged white women, the annual increase was 3.9 percent; among middle-aged white men it was 2.7 percent.
3.9%? Holy sh^t.
The same study said that white men hanging themselves is up 6.3%. What the hell is going on?
By Archie
November 21, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
I really agree with your 10:47 post K, are we related? No bailout seems to be some agreement between those on the right and the left maybe for different reasons but there definitely seems to be some agreement on this blog.
By k
November 21, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
Going deeper…… What if people born in manufacturing towns had SCHOOLS that prepared them for something beyond the assembly line, opportunities for higher education they could afford, and therefore fewer relied on the factory jobs and unions? A more educated populace would be less dependent on established corporatations, and could invent, develop, and support innovative new ideas that people in Asia would buy, instead of the other way around. What if the children of Detroit could DESIGN new robots, manufacturing processes, and energy & recyling technology, and didn’t need a union-guaranteed hourly wage?
People get tired of the “let’s fix health care and education” mantra, and it never gets done. Addressing basic core issues that affect everyone, I think, will put us on a positive spiral instead of a negative one. Sure, some will say “Smart kids can work hard and get scholarships, or work their way through, so why should we care?” But mathematically, that just isn’t true. The smart-EST kids can get scholarships, but the number won’t grow if more kids try harder. They’ll just be competing for a smaller chance. When you have to choose between insurance and school because everything is going up but your income, it’s a lose-lose deal. Less discretionary income out there for restaurants, movies, and retail, coupled with rapidly rising tuition, puts a 20-yr-old working his way though school in front of a mountain wearing nothing but shorts & flip flops. “Good luck, Dude!” We can’t fix the future by ignoring the children. Just hoping they’ll wade through this mess and clean in it up is less than what America can do, IMO.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
TOJ, What are the stats for Iraqi War vet suicides? I wonder if the overall increase has something to do with that.
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
It is the American manufacturing process. It is 40 years behind the rest of the world. Is it the Union’s fault?
look, I’m not going to argue about how behind the US is on manufacturing - but, to say that it’s the union’s fault is a leeeeeeeetle bit overblown. if you look at the UAW disputes over the last 10 years, they haven’t been over robotics replacing labor, they’ve been over pay and how much is deducted out of paychecks to cover health care expenses and the companies’ use of part-time labor (essentially, replacing a full-timer with someone working people 38 hours/week so they don’t have to pay benefits)
as for your note about people offing themselves … all I can say is WTF??? it’s something that I’ve never really understood (unless that person is in extreme pain from something like cancer). I’ve never understood how someone can look at their life - no matter how much crap they happen to be in at the moment - and not find something good in it, something worth living for. I’m really sorry you’re having to deal with this right now - but, I promise you, life is giving you more than it’s taking, you just need to take a look to figure out where.
By Simple Math
November 21, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
(Regret + Pain) - Hope = Suicidal Thoughts. Think about that when the urge to ridicule someone’s hope arises.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Has anyone really talked about trying universal health care? I know a lot of Democrats have talked about providing care for anyone who doesn’t already have it. The Auto workers already have incredible health care. Giving poor people health care isn’t going to help anyone but poor people and auto workers aren’t poor people.
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
Thanks to my oldest and bestest friend, here is an article from Yale research on health care in the auto industry:
Of the top six automobile-manufacturing countries in the world, the US and China are the only ones that lack universal government-backed health care. US workers expect employers like Ford, General Motors and Chrysler to provide cradle-to-grave health coverage, a significant cost burden not shared by competitors. The problem is exacerbated by health plans for retired employees – every plant closure and cut in production raises the health-care costs per vehicle. As a result, the American auto industry is in danger of losing its global dominance. Still, US firms do not demand a universal health care system: Significant political obstacles include fierce public resistance to paying anything out-of-pocket for medical care and a hunger for profits from pharmaceutical and insurance industries. But there may be no other choice. Globalization compels the US to reduce health-care costs per capita in some way or risk significant loss in an industry that has been essential for the nation’s historic economic prosperity. – YaleGlobal
http:// yaleglobal.yale.edu/ display.article?id=8785
(the whole article is worth the read)
and THANKS CURLY!!!
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
Giving poor people health care isn’t going to help anyone but poor people and auto workers aren’t poor people.
RETIRED auto workers still receive health care coverage - that’s a whole lotta outgo on people who could be covered by a single-payer plan.
By Monica
November 21, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
K, what you suggest about education is not necessarily a novel idea, but it makes so much sense! If we get rid of NCLB, that will be a start in the right direction. National Standards, on the other hand, will be two steps back. I think we ruined education when we cut funding on the vocational programming.
Archie, you are right. The majority on the blog seem to support a no bailout policy, regardlesss of which box they checked on Nov 4.
TOJ, notice that there are no American cars come with a 10 year 100K mile warranty?
By Fandalf, the White!
November 21, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
The UAW is bad for America, it is the cause of all this! BAD UNION! Ruin the companies you work for, while you make bad cars! I bought a Chevy in 1998. It sucked so bad I haven’t been back. Poorly made, and sold at poorly run dealerships. $1100 of the sticker goes to cover the UAW members who went before. Goverment buyout and turn them into building Yugo’s and close off the import market. Freeze out Honda and Toyota! Put a 100% tariff on them! I bet they still outsell Ford!
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
Hi Everybody!
(Again TOJ, I am not picking on you, you just said something I disagree with so I am making a counterpoint, ok?)
Giving poor people health care isn’t going to help anyone but poor people and auto workers aren’t poor people.—I have to personally and strongly disagree with this statement.
Being currently pregnant, health care coverage is EXTREMELY import to me right now. I have had my salary cut by 15% and since my husband works at the same company his has been also cut by 15%, for a net loss of 30% of our weekly/monthly salary. We are not poor and work very hard. I would leave in A HOT SECOND and find a new job if it was not for the health benefits. I CAN’T leave by job, I am 78 days away from having a baby. If I left now I would not even be eligible for health care for the first 90 days of a new job most likely, well the baby will be here then! I got a part time job in 3 days after I started looking and that is great, and tells me that there are jobs I could get if I tried but I CAN’T. I have more transferable skills than my Hubby and yes he is looking but his skill set is more trade specific. So where does that leave us? I am working 60+ hours a week, 4 12 hour days a week plus one day I ONLY work for 8 hours, and Hubby is taking jobs on the weekends, all really because of Health Care. PLEASE don’t tell me a universals system that would not tie workers to a specific work place would only work for poor people! I am exhausted and 7 months pregnant. There are more examples of hard working people who would use universals benefits than you think!
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
Good morning, bloggers. A lot of excellent posts this AM. Good job, everyone. Personally, my sentiments lie with the view presented by Mara, Gale, Monica, and Lyrazel. It’s not the government’s job to provide bailouts for failing industries, regardless of the short-term pain our economy will face if some of these large companies go out of business.
As per the unions, I’m not a union supporter. If the figures that Shaunti quotes are correct, $73 per hour for unionized plants vs. $48 for non-unionized plants, that is simply too much.
By SimpleMath
November 21, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
I have had my salary cut by 15% and since my husband works at the same company his has been also cut by 15%, for a net loss of 30% of our weekly/monthly salary
someone needs to get out a calculator, calculate take-home(or gross) pay combined (2 people) before the 15 percent cut and after the 15 percent cut.
because the result is not 30 percent, other deductions remaining the same.
By TomG
November 21, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Chapter 11? Companies are given time to ‘fix’ things, especially labor contracts…and a good possiblity of very few jobs being lost.
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Sunshine -
(((HUGS))) it sounds like you need them, too!!!
PLEASE don’t tell me a universals system that would not tie workers to a specific work place would only work for poor people! I am exhausted and 7 months pregnant. There are more examples of hard working people who would use universals benefits than you think!
plus, you forgot the biggest benefit of universal health care — we would all have more money in our take-home pay to spend on cars, our homes, etc. if we all pay into a universal system, it’s cheaper than (1) buying our own health care directly or (2) the current system of health care via your company (we all pay for those overheads - it’s built into the cost of your good or service)
more money = more consumer spending = better for the economy.
(yes, that is an extremely boiled-down version of how it works)
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
When I was a kid, it seemed that most families developed a loyalty to either Ford or Chevy. We were a “Chevy family”. Of course, back then, people felt lucky to rack up 100,000 miles on their cars before they died. Now, if I don’t go at least 200,000 miles, I feel like something is wrong. I got 240,000 + miles on my 1992 Toyota Paseo before trading it in on a Nissan Rogue last January. The Rogue is great insofar as it provides the luxury and comfort of an SUV, but gets close to 30 mpg on the highway (4 cylinders). The best feature is the CVR transmission which uses a belt drive rather than using gears, so that it doesn’t ever “shift”.
Probably the worst car my family ever bought was a Chevy Vega. It had an aluminum engine which melted if the temperature ever got high. The Nova was a pretty good car, though they didn’t sell well in Mexico due to its name. If anyone here speaks Spanish, you might be able to guess why.
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
Excuse me SimpleMath, I misstated, if there was only one person working for the company that had the cut, and both were making the same salary, it would only be a 7.5% cut for the house hold, which is the case for every other family at my company but ours. Because we both took the cut it was 15% total (not 30%), I bow down to your superior math skills!
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
because the result is not 30 percent, other deductions remaining the same.
simple is right.
15% of your take home + 15% of hubby’s take home = 15% of total take home.
By Frustrated
November 21, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
someone needs to get out a calculator, calculate take-home(or gross) pay combined (2 people) before the 15 percent cut and after the 15 percent cut.
Haha, I wasn’t going to say anything….
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
as for your note about people offing themselves … all I can say is WTF??? it’s something that I’ve never really understood (unless that person is in extreme pain from something like cancer). I’ve never understood how someone can look at their life - no matter how much crap they happen to be in at the moment - and not find something good in it, something worth living for.
From my own personal experiences dealing with chronic depression, USinUK, I firmly believe that brain chemistry is the culprit rather than external circumstances. If you have never experienced deep, debilitating depression, then you are lucky. There are several medications available which help increase the serotonin levels in the brain, but they make you feel really strange, so I have chosen not to take them personally.
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Bruno—The best feature is the CVR transmission which uses a belt drive rather than using gears, so that it doesn’t ever “shift”. We bought a ford Freestyle (2005) last year and it has a CVR! It is the best car I have ever owned! I know most people think that American cars suck but I did research online for almost 3 months reading reviews, recalls, comparing gas millage, price ect, and the Freestyle won out overall. I didn’t limit my search to only American/ only imports. I knew we were trying to start a family, so I looked at SUV’s, Minivans, Crossovers, ect. Anything thing that would seat over 5 so the Grandparents could ride with us, and give us room later on (Our other Ford just went over 180,000, and is a 1997so I knew we would have the new car for a while!) For the money, the options, the safety and the gas millage I kept coming back the the Freestyle. No it isn’t the “sexist” car in the world but it is rated 22/24 for a car that seats 7 and on long highway trips, like last weekend, I got 27 mpg. All with the smooth ride of the CVT, leather seats, and under $14,000.
By Fandalf, the White!
November 21, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Funshine, that is not superior math, that is basic math. Math any Dum Bass should know! Sorry couldn’t help myself! HAHA
What ya going to do if you decide to carry your parasite to a time and space where it magically becomes a life form? A human, albeit souless human need a mother, so you are going to go back to work and pay some illegal $5 an hour to watch the parasite? GOOD PLAN! More in Obamastan should do that!
By GOB
November 21, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
National Standards, on the other hand, will be two steps back.
Monica,
I’ll admit up front that I have done little research on this subject, but my initial reaction is that if there are tiers to National Standards (i.e. college prep, vocational, etc), then they wouldnt be a bad thing. It would be a way to help pull some of the states that continually struggle up. Why would you consider it a step back?
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
Fandalf—the care of my child after it is born is not your concern nor any of your business. Just like having the child, it is my choice as the mother, I know men like you just can’t stand that.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
TomG, I think you are right about Chapter 11 and I know I have read that elsewhere.
Sunshine, do you feel better about the loss with your math corrected? I winced at that one too and hoped it was just a slip.
Good points all. UHC will benefit more than just the poor, but transition will take a long time, I think, as people with insurance transition to a new mode. The “poor” need to do the same as I do and visit a local clinic for health needs instead of the hospital ER. I see many more of these facilities and I think they are great for general illnesses. I’d wager that 80% of office visits don’t even need an MD. An RN or nurse practicioner can deal with most things. Then, if the ‘Doc-in-a-box’ only deals with the UHC to pay for time and treatments, the overall cost would be dramatically reduced. No forms, just on-line records to a single agency. And would it benefit all those union workers as well? You betcha! K’ching, the cost of an auto goes down.
As I think Monica id’d above, the education system took a nose dive when vocational education was cut. We have discussed thiis one before too. We don’t need another college grad with a student loan waiting tables because that is the only job he can get. I would rather have the tech school grad who can program a modern manufaturing robot.
I think we should bundle the CEO salaries of the Big 3 and split them among us. We have the answers and they are stnding in DC with their hats in their hands.
By USinUK
November 21, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
From my own personal experiences dealing with chronic depression, USinUK, I firmly believe that brain chemistry is the culprit rather than external circumstances.
that is very true - and I’m sure many people who do decide to off themselves are either depressive or bipolar. in which case, I can’t relate, but I can at least understand the science behind it.
and you’re right - I should have clarified - I don’t understand the people who don’t have a painful/debilitating disease or the people with a chemical imbalance that basically prohibits them from seeing past the bad times.
anyhoo … heading home … will try to check in, but, to be honest, I’m too pooped to pop. if I don’t see you guys later, have a faboo weekend!! start stretching those stomachs to make room for more Thanksgiving stuffing and pie!!! :-)
(I miss thanksgiving!!!!)
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
plus, you forgot the biggest benefit of universal health care — we would all have more money in our take-home pay to spend on cars, our homes, etc. if we all pay into a universal system, it’s cheaper than (1) buying our own health care directly or (2) the current system of health care via your company (we all pay for those overheads - it’s built into the cost of your good or service)
You forgot option #3, USinUK—Paying as you go for your own health care without using insurance at all. For the vast majority of people, that would be the least expensive option. I don’t have a link for you, but I’ve often heard that 20% of health care “consumers” suck up 80% of all health care dollars spent.
I would like to challenge all the bloggers here to do some simple calculations regarding how much your annual health care premiums cost (both employer contribution plus out-of-pocket premiums) vs. how much your actual medical costs are per year. In my case, my lifetime medical expenses have been less than $2000, so it makes little sense for me to pay $3000-$4000 per year for insurance. Sunshine is excused from the exercise since she is somewhat math-challenged. (just poking at you, beautiful).
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
No it isn’t the “sexist” car in the world
You’re just an old married lady now, so forget about being sexy, Sunshine. ; > }
I can’t say enough about the CVR transmission, though. When it does finally break, I’ve been told that the repair costs are much less due to the simplicity of the design.
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Gale—Sunshine, do you feel better about the loss with your math corrected?—I hope you really didn’t mean that as harsh as it came across to me. The dollars are still the same, as I tried to quickly correct myself above, the point is we are taking double the hit that other employees are to our total household income. I am sorry I misspoke, I make errors, I am human, but it doesn’t make knowing you are working for less that you could and should be making because you are pregnant any less hard.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I agree on the ins cost vs my health care costs. The ONLY reason I don’t opt out is the outside possibility of an expensive injury or illness. That possibility could ruin me without insurance. As mentioned above, freedom from that fear would open many new possibilities for many people.
I am sure you are completely correct about the 80/20. I heard an item on the radio about care for cystic fibrocis and how much it costs. Yes, the kids live longer, but the cost is very high. Cancer drugs are very expensive. I would not be the one to say UHC should not cover those costs to keep the overall cost down, just because the 80% are lots healthier. Are humans alone in the animal kingdom in our support of weaker members of the species? I read that once.
By Mara
November 21, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this
Bruno - Paying as you go for your own health care without using insurance at all.
The Mister and I considered this at one time, but ended up discarding it. He’s got a chronic (but not debilitating) condition that requires daily medications and could, at any time, flare up and put him in the hospital. This usually happens at least once a year, when the weather is changing. Our family insurance costs approx. $4500/year, which might pay for a single incident…if we were even able to go a year or more without any hospital visits. But that would leave us without resources if he suffered another attack.
For a very many people, NOT having insurance is significantly more expensive than having it.
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
What if people born in manufacturing towns had SCHOOLS that prepared them for something beyond the assembly line, opportunities for higher education they could afford, and therefore fewer relied on the factory jobs and unions?
As I think Monica id’d above, the education system took a nose dive when vocational education was cut. We have discussed this one before too. We don’t need another college grad with a student loan waiting tables because that is the only job he can get. I would rather have the tech school grad who can program a modern manufaturing robot.
Gale, I side with you regarding the place of education in our society. Though it is a nice thought for everyone to land an executive-level job, it isn’t realistic economically. As for new innovations coming only from highly educated peoples, the History of Science tells a different story. Many, many brilliant inventors didn’t even graduate from high school. A great example of this is Thomas Edison. Here’s a link for anyone who wants to read his inspiring story:
inventors. about.com/od/estartinventors/a/Edison_Bio.htm (delete space)
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
I am sorry I misspoke, I make errors, I am human, but it doesn’t make knowing you are working for less that you could and should be making because you are pregnant any less hard.
Sunshine, for working so many hours while you are in the “delicate condition”, you have my full respect, in spite of your Commie-pinko views! A hearty round of applause for Sunshine, everyone!!
By Gale
November 21, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Aw, Sunshine, there is that Aquarian tendency to be blunt without meaning it. No, I sure didn’t mean to be harsh. A 15% cut is hard enough to swallow. I was actually trying for a light comment. Sorry. My company just did a 15% staff RIF in the corporate office. It was not at all pretty and we lost some good people. But if we had cut salaries overall that same 15%, we probably would have lost that many people anyway, and most likely the best of the best. As it was, a few more left because they knew their workloads would increase. It was particularly hard in my group because we all support different things. Now we have a couple gapping holes and have to scramble to figure out how to do what they were doing.
I have to say, it seems Obama and team are walking a fine diplomatic line, trying to be involved and let it be known what direction they want to take, but not making policy that needs to come from the current administration.
By Mara
November 21, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
Thoughts on Universal Healthcare - by Helen Philpot
Has it occurred to anyone else that the Republican party has become the party of money, guns and sex? It seems to be the only things they think about. Who is having sex with who? How much are my taxes? Keep your hands off my guns. I really think they would explode if a gay couple used their tax refund to purchase an AKA assault rifle. They wouldn’t know whether to hate the sinner or compliment the sin. All the problems we have in the world and this is what we are wasting our time worrying about.
Squeaky wheel folks… squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Imagine what the Religious Right Wing of the Republican party could have done if they had used their supposed Christian morality to squeak about helping the poor. They could have swept the election if someone had said something like: As Christians we think Christ would want us to tend to the suffering of the poor so universal health care is important to us. And money is no object. We will gladly share some of our riches to help the least among us.
My God but what a unified electorate that would have been.
But no. Instead they hitched their star to Joe the Plumber who was worried not about sharing the money he had, but rather about sharing the money that he might one day have. I mean those Republicans are so greedy they are hoarding the wealth they haven’t even amassed yet. Twins I tell you. There is no telling them apart from Jesus. It’s like looking in a mirror. Of course the mirror is at a carnival fun house but mirror none the less.
It is just so interesting to me that the voters who most value religious freedom seem to be the most willing to embrace religious values, while the voters who claim to be the most religious are clearly the least. Don’t get me wrong. There are lots well-intentioned, good hearted Christians out there. We just don’t seem to be squeaking loud enough. We’ve known for years that we have a health care problem. Bill used Hilary Clinton to try and address it back in 1992. Do you realize that was 16 years ago? Republicans squeaked that it was Government-run healthcare and it would bankrupt our county. So millions of families continued to live without adequate healthcare while the government swept the whole mess under the rug. Suddenly banks and auto industries are having trouble and money seems to be growing on trees. Says a great deal about our priorities.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Waiting until a child is so sick that the emergency room is the only option or worse yet, using the emergency room because you can’t get in to see a doctor is a recipe for disaster. I know many of you will say it is not that easy. It is more complicated than that. Well crap on that. I say it is that easy. Years ago we decided to go to the moon. We made it a priority and to the moon we went. Around that same time I remember my children watching a space show on TV.. Star Wars or Star Trek or something like that. I remember the characters held little boxes in their hand and talked to one another from wherever they happened to be. Recently I have noticed a lot of people walking around with little boxes in their hand talking to everyone everywhere. My son tells me those little boxes are called I Phones.*
My point is that if we dream it we can do it. If we make it a priority smart people can work out all the problems and come up with a solution. So why wouldn’t we want to make sure that no one in this great country of ours ever has to choose between food on the table or medicine for a child?
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I know you exempted me since I made a one time math mistake but I think I would still like to participate.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2005 45.8 million Americans do not have health insurance. If this figure includes you, you can anticipate an average hospital bill of $5,000-$10,000 for a vaginal delivery. Add at least $2,000 if you need a c-section. These figures do not include the medical costs associated with nine months of prenatal visits, ultrasound costs and other lab costs. If your baby is born premature or with health problems, neonatal costs can range from a few thousand for a short stay to more than $200,000
Now, some might be able to swing that type of cost but I think it is unlikely that most are. It was our decision to have a baby, but the pay as you go, has been proven over and over to only work if you don’t get sick and you don’t need any care.
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
The ONLY reason I don’t opt out is the outside possibility of an expensive injury or illness. That possibility could ruin me without insurance. As mentioned above, freedom from that fear would open many new possibilities for many people.
Sadly, Gale, if you end up with a devastating illness, the chances are good that you will be ruined financially anyway. When I was married, my MIL was diagnosed with leukemia, and died approximately 45 days later. The MD and hospital costs exceeded $500,000 for 45 days of care, and that was more than 20 years ago! Though my FIL had “good” insurance, he was forced to file bankruptcy.
Our family insurance costs approx. $4500/year, which might pay for a single incident…if we were even able to go a year or more without any hospital visits. But that would leave us without resources if he suffered another attack.
Mara, I am sorry to once again hear of your husband’s difficulties. I still believe that medical costs are way out of line with what they should be based on costs of production. E.g. A TENS unit cost about $23 to make, but is typically marked up to $400 by the doctors. BTW, you have my full respect as well, Mara, for being such a loving wife. I broke my wedding vows (To love, honor and cherish both in sickness and in health) and still regret it. More power to you.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Wow. Now this is a discussion.
Gale
TOJ, What are the stats for Iraqi War vet suicides? I wonder if the overall increase has something to do with that.
Good question, but war suicides are always high. My Dad never got over what he saw and while he didn’t directly kill himself, he pretty much drank himself to death, even though a war wound actually killed him.
I just lost a cousin that I grew up with that I haven’t seen in years. That’s what the Baby Boomer deal was. He had lots of problems with extreme pain from a job injury from years ago. His wife just left him and his old dog just died. I think he just gave up. I don’t feel too bad because he had an extremely hard life. I’m sure he is in a better place. I just hate that it happened, but I’m not upset about it. I am pretty upset that out of 8 poker buddies, we are now down to one guy still having a job, other than me and I really don’t have a job, I just go from project to project and they are pretty plentiful right now. This winter? I just don’t know. I might be a piano player again. I can always get work doing that.
This has been a rough week because I have been dealing with a jerk of a distributor. I fired them yesterday. I just dread looking for a new one.
Sunshine
I was talking about the fact that no one seems to be interested in a health care plan that would help you if you already had insurance. Unless you quit your job, the Obama or the Clinton plan would not help you. Poor people would benefit because they have no insurance.
Monica
TOJ, notice that there are no American cars come with a 10 year 100K mile warranty?
They tried to do that with something, maybe a Jeep. I don’t remember, but I know that they were losing their butts over it. I had a great project year before last and paid cash for my Z-car, but I swore that the next car I buy new will be a Ferrari, so until I have a quarter mill cash, I’ll keep buying $1,500 woopties. You can buy a fleet of 93 Volvos for what a new car costs. I love the Z, but I wish I had that money back right now.
By Monica
November 21, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
GOB,
Admittedly, I am shooting off at the mouth. From what I have seen on National Standards, they are another measure to see who is better. The focus would again go to some sort of standardized instrument, and it does not take into conisderation the unique needs of individual communities. I could be wrong, of course.
Bruno, have you researched the costs of having a baby? Or children’s immunizations? Or tubes and tonsilectomies? I’ll keep my premiums, thanks! :)
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
Mara,
Great Post! This is what I thought about the whole election cycle Instead they hitched their star to Joe the Plumber who was worried not about sharing the money he had, but rather about sharing the money that he might one day have. I mean those Republicans are so greedy they are hoarding the wealth they haven’t even amassed yet.
OVER and Over is was shown that Mr. Obama’s plan (yes, it is a plan, it hasn’t come true yet, and I understand that, but if you only have a plan that is all you can compare) would help most of the population cut their taxes. It seems most people were soooooooo concerned about what it would do to the money they could/might/should/maybe make one day?!?!?! Ok, yeah, we all have dreams but voting based on income you don’t make and could never make seems silly. Just my opinion!
Bruno—Thanks, I am tired and touchy, I need to lighten up today!
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Waiting until a child is so sick that the emergency room is the only option or worse yet, using the emergency room because you can’t get in to see a doctor is a recipe for disaster.
Sorry to get on my soapbox, but I think that “prevention” means more than visiting an MD at the first sign of illness. How about preventing the illness in the first place by living a healthy lifestyle?? All of the obesity figures that I read make me sick, expecially for children. Throw those GameBoys in the trash and get the little rugrats exercising, for Pete’s sake!
One of the biggest factors in poor health, IMO, is the declining quality of our food. The incidence of autism is going through the roof, and no one knows why. Personally, I believe that all the food additives are the culprit.
you can anticipate an average hospital bill of $5,000-$10,000 for a vaginal delivery.
I’ll do it for $1500, Sunshine, especially if I get to keep the photos. ; > }
By k
November 21, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
My rates go up, my deductibles and co-pays go up, and my coverage goes down. Again. One bad accident or illness can, and does, wipe out a family who faithfully pays premiusm for years. Since my chiropractor is “out of network”, I shoulder that cost entirely, never reaching the ridiculously high deductible. Those treatments save Blue Cross from shelling out for expensive anti-inflammatory drugs I’d otherwise need, and the other drugs I’d need when the NSAIDs tear up the stomach and overload the liver. (No thanks!) Every year I pay more for the insurance, AND more of my own money to stay well, and I’m one of the LUCKY ones with an employer-sponsored plan.
I think Bruno is half right. “Pay as you go” has the potsential to make sense for many (somebody clue Congress in), though not everyone. This might be possible if costs to payers weren’t jacked up astronomically to cover costs of non-payers. But the WHOLE SYSTEM is broken! Some get something for nothing, some get what they need at a price, and most of us get reamed for costs that have nothing to do with our needs or uses. Some people lose everything and are forced to become (at best) life-long charity cases, and others die trying to cut through bureaucratic red tape. Meanwhile, doctors who join the networks get dicated to by bonus-hungry insurance execs and have staggering patient loads, and those who don’t join can charge whatever they like, knowing that if you can, you’ll bypass your network for a more-skilled practitioner who actually has room on the schedule to see you while you’re still sick.
Suggestion: to anyone who understands the ebb and flow of health care, why not propose a way to make it affordable to pay as you go, instead of just expecting sick people to suffer… or not…. who cares… not your problem, right? Clearly, our national HC cluster-floogen DOES affect us all, when our biggest industries fail to compete in the global market, and when the entrepreneural spirit that made this country great is crushed, because of it.
By Frustrated
November 21, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Why would you chance the idea of having an accident by not having insurance?
I would be walking on eggshells if I were you Bruno…..it would totally be my luck to get struck by a car the day I came of my insurance.
Sunshine- My hospital bill for my baby was 18k+…I paid $1,200 for every ounce of care I received from day 1 to six weeks post.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
bruno
Me too. I never get sick. (knock on wood) But that’s not going to last forever. We will get old and the body parts will start falling off, or going bad. It will happen. None of us get out of this alive.
Have you ever read Mark Twain’s, the danger of lying in bed? Do a quick search and read the short story if you have time. It is one page and it is funny as hell. It’s hard to believe that it was written over 100 years ago.
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
Instead they hitched their star to Joe the Plumber who was worried not about sharing the money he had, but rather about sharing the money that he might one day have. I mean those Republicans are so greedy they are hoarding the wealth they haven’t even amassed yet.
If it makes you feel better to bash Repubs, don’t let me stand in your way. However, the individualism as described by Ayn Rand is a valid way to construct a society, IMO. In the words of Neal Boortz “The best way to combat poverty is to NOT be poor yourself.” Though USinUK likes to gloss over the downside of socialism, there is a definite, measurable difference in the standard of living between socialistic coutnries and those which rely on free-market capitalism.
By The Other Jack
November 21, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I’ll do it for $1500, Sunshine, especially if I get to keep the photos. ; > }
Not me, Pal. I have video taped that a few times. it changes a person’s perspectives. Right after my divorce I was doing a lot of stuff for hospitals. A lot of that and breast reconstruction from mastectomies. It made dating interesting in a bad kind of way.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
my MIL was diagnosed with leukemia, and died approximately 45 days later. The MD and hospital costs exceeded $500,000 for 45 days of care, and that was more than 20 years ago! Though my FIL had “good” insurance, he was forced to file bankruptcy.
This is what insurance should be for, protecting us from catastrophy. I don’t care if it doesn’t cover an office vist for a physical or a sore throat. I twitch when I hear about people taking kids to the doctor for every case of sniffles because they have insurance to cover it. Geez. What good is it if the cold medicine is covered but people have to cut heart medicine pills in half so they can stretch out the cost because it is either that or not pay the heating bill? Priorities, as Helen Philpot would say.
I wonder if the automakers are self insured? Would some insurance company take a big hit if the union contracts were renegotiated?
By Sunshine
November 21, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
Ok Bruno—No thank you on your offer of medical help ;-p, lol!
But I have to call you on this If it makes you feel better to bash Repubs, don’t let me stand in your way. by referencing that I wasn’t trying to “Bash Republicans”! I said the whole elections if you make over $200K than I completely understand you voting for Mr. McCain! But for those of us who looked at his plan and knew they would get less now and made the decision to vote on what the COULD make SOMEDAY. That is in some ways irrational. With the fact that 95% of the population makes less than $250K what is the chance that 45% of the population MIGHT someday make that? Not very good statistically. Now there are other issues to vote on, but if you are only looking at tax plans, I think a lot of Republicans voted on the taxation of the wealth they THOUGHT they MIGHT have. (this is the chart I am using to base these facts on: www. washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html)
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Why would you chance the idea of having an accident by not having insurance?
Actually, Frustrated, I DO carry medpay coverage on my auto insurance policy since, statistically speaking, it does represent my greatest chance of being injured (angry ex-GFs and wives excepted).
We will get old and the body parts will start falling off, or going bad. It will happen. None of us get out of this alive.
Very true, TOJ. I used to think I would live to a ripe, old age, but now am struggling to make 50. The “sweet release” that k has mentioned before sounds better and better every day. If I wasn’t so concerned about causing my family and friends a lot of grief, I think I would have checked out already.
But the WHOLE SYSTEM is broken! Some get something for nothing, some get what they need at a price, and most of us get reamed for costs that have nothing to do with our needs or uses.
You’re completely right, k. Our “hybrid” healthcare system is crazy. Though I still think that market-driven healthcare would be the best way to bring medical costs down to a realistic level, I beleive that UHC would be an improvement over the current system.
By Mara
November 21, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Bruno - One of the biggest factors in poor health, IMO, is the declining quality of our food. The incidence of autism is going through the roof, and no one knows why. Personally, I believe that all the food additives are the culprit.
the FDA released a study earlier this month that found significant levels of perchlorate in our food supply -
A study published in January 2008 by scientists from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) finds that three quarters of nearly 300 commonly consumed foods and beverages are contaminated with perchlorate, a toxic rocket fuel ingredient (Murray et al 2008). EWG analysis of these results finds that the levels of perchlorate in food potentially put the health of millions of children at risk. Two-year-olds appear to be particularly vulnerable because they have graduated to real food and eat substantial amounts relative to their size.
According to FDA’s analysis of 285 foods, every day, the average two-year-old will be exposed to more than half of the EPA’s safe dose of perchlorate from food alone. Children are also exposed to perchlorate in contaminated tap water, in at least 28 states.
Bruno, don’t the symptoms of autism start manifesting around 2 yrs of age? I’ll assume that this has been thoroughly investigated by the powers that be…but still…kuh-winky-dink, no?
Sunshine - Great Post!
Thanks! Maybe I should forward your compliments to “Margaret and Helen” :^)
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Not me, Pal. I have video taped that a few times. it changes a person’s perspectives. Right after my divorce I was doing a lot of stuff for hospitals. A lot of that and breast reconstruction from mastectomies. It made dating interesting in a bad kind of way.
I’m sure you know that I was kidding, TOJ. A lot of guys joke about wanting to be an OB-GYN, but I would think that would be one of the worst jobs to have.
Back to work, best wishes to all.
By jjeanjer
November 21, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
I do not believe in the bailout of the big three automakers.They were warned to make more fuel efficient cars but continued with the big SUV’s.This is my tax money and I believe the government should listen to the wishes of the people since they are in charge of the responsible use of this money. The leaders of this company also thought it was appropriate to fly to Washington,D.C. in private jets which seem to me as a horrible waste of the company’s money. Thank you.
By Bruno
November 21, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
That is in some ways irrational. With the fact that 95% of the population makes less than $250K
Sorry to be such a skeptic, but I still don’t believe that 95% of all Americans will be paying less taxes once Obama and the Dem Congress assume control. Just my opinion, of course. If I am proved wrong, I will gladly come back to W2W and take my beating.
Bruno, don’t the symptoms of autism start manifesting around 2 yrs of age? I’ll assume that this has been thoroughly investigated by the powers that be…but still…kuh-winky-dink, no?
My current GF is a special ed teacher who specializes in autism. From my conversations with her, I don’t think anyone has a clue as to what is causing the dramatic increase. I don’t know of any link between all the drugs which are being put into chicken and beef, but common sense alone tells me it’s not good. God’s way is still the best way.
By Archie
November 21, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
But for those of us who looked at his plan and knew they would get less now and made the decision to vote on what the COULD make SOMEDAY. That is in some ways irrational. Yeah, Sunshine I agree that statement but I tell you I wish had the republican marketing guy because if you can get people to vote for something when 95 percent of people don’t even fall into that category then you’re good. But the thing I noticed today is that plain old reasoning somehow made it to this blog because people on both sides of aisle are objectively saying no to bailing out the automakers. Now if people can objectively look at healthcare and get away from “government this” , “government that”, then you’ll really see some progress especially in the South. We’ve cut taxes here in S.C. and now some state agencies are furloughing people and people are reacting as if these actions are a surprise but the government pay it’s workers with tax revenue so if you cut that down then of course you will have layoffs,etc and politicians need to tell the public just that but then that would be too close to the truth. As K put it earlier the big Three automakers have been getting beat for a long time and you even have people like TOJ saying he will never buy an american car and frankly,although I won’t say that I feel like that. If you’re a father of four with no health insurance and you work every single day you ought to want universal health care and I would not be offended if some of my tax dollars helped pay for your benefits as long as I can use the benefits too. Sorry for the rambling…
By Gale
November 21, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
jjeanjer, I can almost understand the twisted logic that makes the auto execs think they should take a private jet where ever they go. They make tons of money and their time is worth way more than the peopns wiating in the security line at the airport. On the other hand, why is the CEO of an in danger of going bankrupt company earning, what was it? $17m to $21m bucks a year? As with the AIG resort trip, something is way wrong there when these folks think the taxpayers should hand over money for them to continue their shoddy work. These companies are publicly traded, let the stockholders take the hit. Yes, my 401k probably has some of that stock too.
By Gale
November 21, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Judging by the 2 year olds in my sphere, few, it seems parents feed them anything they will eat once they start feeding themselves. Anything they can put in their mouths without choking is fair game. I would investigate pasta, peanut butter, french fries, and chicken fingers for a start. We have a lot of overworked parents who don’t or can’t find time to coax toddlers to eat things that might be better for them Clearly, fied foods that are not good for adults, are not good for toddlers.
By Mara
November 21, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Bruno - I don’t know of any link between all the drugs which are being put into chicken and beef, but common sense alone tells me it’s not good
and the FDA is about to, yet again, weaken the criteria for “organic” food. At the rate they’re deregulating the production process for “organic” food, the lable won’t be worth the packaging it’s stamped on.
I’m with you about the additives. Unfortunately, we consumers don’t have much choice. Heck, Bush’s FDA doesn’t even want us to know how our food is produced or even if it’s been genetically altered or not! In fact, they told beef producers that they, the producers, weren’t allowed to label their products as “unadulterated” or “naturally produced” even if they were willing to pay all costs to do so! Nor are they allowed to test for mad-cow. That job is only to be done by the gov’ment. Sheesh. It’s just nuts.
anywayt, it’s quittin’ time on a Friday p.m. so you all have a great weekend. Later, taters.
By Frustrated
November 21, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
What if people born in manufacturing towns had SCHOOLS that prepared them for something beyond the assembly line, opportunities for higher education they could afford, and therefore fewer relied on the factory jobs and unions?
Gale- Not that I am disagreeing with your educational stance….but if these people had the opportunity to work elsewhere, where would they go? You think about all the blue collar jobs in the US…if all those people had higher educations, where would they be? Who would be doing the low income jobs?
Higher educations come with higher payrolls….so who has the lowest income if we all have a college degree? What would the lowest position be? If people of manufacturing towns didn’t rely on the factory….what would they rely on?
I think the bottom line is that there will always be different classes in society…if you move the bar up, then another bar has to be set to distinguish people. Although society is moving to “no one gets a trophy because we are all winners” kind of attitude.Bologna!!!!
By Monica
November 21, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
I would not be offended if some of my tax dollars helped pay for your benefits as long as I can use the benefits too. Sorry for the rambling…
Archie, that’s a good way of putting it. I don’t mind helping people who need help. Last week our local paper had an article about the gap between poverty level (10K), which qualifies you for govt assistance, and the subsistence level (16K). Those making in between can’t qualify for aid but can’t make ends meet either.
Unfortunately, when you work with the public, you see so many people take advantage of the systems in place, and it’s easy to become bitter. I have several students whose plan for the future is to collect a welfare check like their momma does (Yes, they actually have told me that). I see many people abuse the system - there is a difference between “can’t work” and “won’t work.” But maybe the chip on my shoulder would be smaller if I received the same benefits.
USinUK, or anyone, how much do you pay for universal health care? I mean, how much of your taxes go toward that? Would we see a huge difference in our taxes taken out of our paychecks?
By Rockerbabe
November 21, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Why is it that we can find money for the Wall Street w******* and give it to them without any strings attached? Especially when the mess was of their own making?
When the US auto group comes looking for a “loan”, the government officials get sober and decide that working people, who actually make stuff and provide more than a million people with jobs, benefits and healthcare, not to mention the government with lots of tax money, which is readily spent, well are working for a rip-off company that only deserves scorn!? Granted the CEO’s leave something to be desired, but their excesses are no worse than those of AIG, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, etc.
Banruptcy is not a panacea; it only allows the company to stiff their supplies and screw-over their employees and retirees, but I guess that is OK, as long as it isn’t YOU who is getting shafted.
Give Detroit the loans with string; rework the bailout for the bank and give them some strings, major strings and be done with it.
By Jason
November 21, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
“they could have given 150K or so to every adult citizen and come out better.”
I’ve heard ridiculous figures like this before. I didn’t support the bailout, but $700 billion divided among the roughly 225 million adults in the U.S. comes to only about $3100 per person.
By Monica
November 21, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Let me clarify something I posted above - I don’t know how people making 16K can make ends meet either!!
Frustrated: Although society is moving to “no one gets a trophy because we are all winners” kind of attitude.Bologna!!!!
That’s right, except that it’s everyone gets a trophy because we are all winners. :)
By Gale
November 21, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Frustrated, Um, I am not in favor of everyone having college degrees. But even though I am in favor of more vocational training, I think I see your point. Yes, there will always be a need for assembly line workers, trash collectors and so on. But as we modernize, we need fewer assembly line workers. Manufacturing jobs are thinning. We will always have people to fill low skill level jobs who are not capable of more, not because they are poor and not because training is not available. Chastize me if you like, but I think we have people who are not capable of high skill or knowledge level and we have many people for whom those would be temporary jobs while they learned something else. I know of more than one janitor who finally graduated from a program to become a successful something else. Not everyone gets a paid college education, they have to work to earn funding.
I think my point is this: Assembly line work, fast food counter work, and trash collector are needed functions, but should they be careers? Union workers often make the assembly line a career. Some people are perfectly happy where they are, and with a high salary and benefits, maybe that is ok. But what if the salary and benefits were not high? What if the jobs were not steady or reliable? If the training was provided in public education, then it would be a matter of choice.
No, every job will not have a high salary. Every person does not need a college degree. Everyone does not get a trophy for playing. Yes, we live in a class society. People make lots more than I do and some people make lots less. It will always be thus. I respect them all unless they give me a reason not to respect them. We, as a society, need to find a way to value people regardless of income. We can move forward with that be providing support to everyone for the basic security systems of food, shelter and health. Ugh, I am sounding very liberal. It must be Friday.
By k
November 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Frustrated, you make a good point about “higher” education. Not everyone would benefit from college, and our focus on education should not stop with enabling those who can excel academically to do so. Like Monica said, the vocational training that’s been slashed by budget constraints would benefit many Americans and the communities where they live. People need to know how to do SOMETHING, and this would surely help in having something worth doing in smaller towns besides watching the grass grow up around closed factories and shuttered old businesses. With this century’s new challenges relating to energy, waste management & recycling, transportation, and infrastructure, vocational training could go a long way toward meeting those challenges going forward.
As opportunties in a community increase, the number of people believing that a welfare check is their best option — and the acceptability of that attitude — should decrease. Millions of working poor are busting their humps right now and not making it. They have to be wondering, why bother? They have to be hoping there will be something better for their kids.
By ReaditRightHere
November 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Especially when the mess was of their own making
their own making? com’on, man, get with the program. The only reason mortgage companies were getting those hefty fees for poor loans or talking old women whose house was paid off to take out a sub-prime mortgage, was because of that Community Reinvestment Act (dang Clintonistas) that made them over-sell mortgages in minority and/or economically disadvantaged neighborhoods.
where on earth have you been? obviously haven’t been reading W-2-W.
By Frustrated
November 21, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
That’s right, except that it’s everyone gets a trophy because we are all winners. :)
But not everyone is a winner!!! Why should Joe the crack smoker on the streets of atlanta get the same recognition as Joe the hard worker at McDonald’s…..or Joe the businessman…. Just because we feel sorry for Joe the crack smoker and we should give him a handout…the handout that everyone else worked so hard to get? We don’t want to hurt his feelings? So when your child passes and he offers a hit or mugs him for money to buy more, you can say, that is ok, he didn’t know any better?
I am not trying to be about judging people….but some people are poor because they are lazy….not because they CAN’T do any better. Do I feel sorry for those who work 70 hours a week and are stilling struggling to put food on the table? YES, but those are the ones that are sincere in a helping hand….they are the ones you see shed a tear when someone leaves a box of groceries on the front porch…and in a lot of cases, may feel obligated to pay your charity back when they get on their feet…. Not the ones on TV saying “When do I get my first check”…I mean come on..
I respect them all unless they give me a reason not to respect them. We, as a society, need to find a way to value people regardless of income. And I can agree with that…but how can you value the ones that don’t want to pull their share? The illegals, the crack addicts, the clear cut white/black/red/yellow trash that would rather spend their food stamps on cigarettes and twinkies than meat and potatoes for their children? We are all human, and thus should be treated as so….but it seems as though sometime you just get what you deserve….no help for those who aren’t willing to help themselves first. If everyone worked hard and respected everyone, we would be in great shape….
By k
November 21, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Frustrated, I won’t refute anything you said at 4:46. You’re not wrong. But we also have a lot of problems in this country that are NOT caused by those you describe - problems we might be able to remedy if we start thinking about the big picture and looking for workable action items. Question: what is the best use of our energy?
It’s my feeling that the “every man for himself” mentality does as much to foster what you describe as it does to discourage it. Joe the shrewd wall street trader of pretend assets that won’t hold up, and Joe the unemployed crack thug are BOTH selfish. It’s all about “me me me, what I want, right now.” No care for how their actions affect the people around them. There’s no cure for those who simply do not give a darn about anyone else, but I choose not to be one of them. So again, back to the big picture. What CAN we do going forward?
By Shannon
November 23, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
I haven’t read through all of the posts, but the ones I read made very good points. What I didn’t see is the point I’m about to make. If it’s there, I apologize.
If Washington wants to “bail out” the auto industry, then tell everyone voting for it to first sell their Mercedes’, Lexus’, BMW’s, Jag’s, and even their Toyota’s, Honda’s, and Infiniti’s and buy American. Set the example for the people they’re representing before they vote. Unfortunately the problem with that scenario is they will realize what the people they’re representing have realized … that American cars aren’t the same quality and don’t deserve the bailout.
By Evelyn
November 23, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
shaunti voices my opinion
By JokesOn
November 23, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
But not everyone is a winner!!! Why should Joe the crack smoker on the streets of atlanta get the same recognition as Joe the hard worker at McDonald’s…..or Joe the businessman…. Just because we feel sorry for Joe the crack smoker and we should give him a handout…the handout that everyone else worked so hard to get? We don’t want to hurt his feelings? So when your child passes and he offers a hit or mugs him for money to buy more, you can say, that is ok, he didn’t know any better?
Let’s not forget who these crack-heads actually are. They, in most cases, are people that have given up on any American dream before they reached 5 years old. There are so many precursors to becoming a person that is always trying to escape reality that the drugs are only the symptom/physical manifestation of the problem.
In the comparison between the selfish wall street trader and the crack addict, I find a significant difference: one is acting consciously and the other is purely trying to cope until death’s release.
By Disgusted
November 23, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
The “Big Three” CEO’s and the unions are in acute need of a reality check. NO BAILOUT. Let the oh-so-valuable and well-paid CEO’s figure out how to get their companies out of the mess they created. Give the unions time to realize that excessive control and demands have left them with what they deserve — nothing. In the meanwhile, use the would-be bail-out funds for unemployment compensation with the caveat that recipients would have to participate in retraining for employment fields with projected growth opportunities.
By Henry Gibson
November 23, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
Billions of dollars in savings kick in the minute they file for Bankruptcy. Why fund them till 2010 at tax payer expense when they can have the benefits of Bankruptcy today?
Use debtor in possession financing to guarantee car warranty’s, shut down the plants already scheduled to close, and build a real business plan.
By zeke
November 23, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
ONLY IF THE UAW AND ALL OTHER UNIONS ARE ABOLISHED, or, TAKE TREMENDOUS CUTS IN WAGES, HEALTH CARE, RETIREMENT AND ABILITY TO CAUSE INJURY BY STRIKE, PERIOD!
By RF
November 23, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Here’s the catch-22. If we don’t give them something, the unemployment rate jumps in a time when there are already too few jobs to go around. If we do give them money, we just put off the inevitable. Judging from AIG, I’d say don’t give them a dime. Let the bankruptcy judge take control and tell the high-paid executives and ridiculous contract demands of UAW to go take a leap. Reorganize, retool, redesign product, and rehire workers who are committed and willing to work for a reasonable wage and then we’ll see. The government could require many of these same changes as conditions, but we all know it won’t. It will be tough, but let’s face it, if you can drop out of high school and get a $20 or more an hour job working in union conditions on an assembly line, what’s the incentive to work hard and have pride and appreciate the opportunity? You develop an entitlement mentality. The unions were a necessary entity once, but have become nothing but greedy, demanding opportunists.
My dad said back when the UAW was striking every year in the 70’s and 80’s that the unions would eventually break us, and they’re contributing to just that. You pay way too much for a vehicle that won’t last nearly as long as my old Honda that has 155,000 miles and runs as good as a new one. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE my Chevy truck and would put it up against anything, but at 5 years old it has its share of unnecessary problems that careful design and commitment to quality could have prevented. These vehicles are built by overpaid factory workers managed by selfish, gluttonous managers that don’t care as long as they can keep the condo in Florida, the house in Alpharetta, and the private school for the kids. Every one of them needs a good dose of reality. Let them get jobs in the new infrastructure rebuilding. They’ll work their butts off and learn to appreciate the paycheck they get. They’ll move into reasonably sized homes and teach their children the value of a dollar and the chance to earn it.
While I don’t like seeing the massive unemployment at least short-term that bankruptcy could cause, I see companies like Delta that did it and lived to tell about it. The employees who stayed and adjusted to the cuts in pay now work for a company that is able to reward them for their commitment and has come out returning to profitable status. The automakers HAVE to endure this same painful process, and they will be better for it.
By Cobia2000
November 23, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
Isn’t Bob Nardelli mixed up with these auto makers? He’s the SOB who ran off from Home Depot with about 240 million in Golden Parachute money. HD has been in a tailspin ever since. The though of that guy flying in on a private jet to beg for money makes me sick. Hang them all!
By ch
November 23, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Simply put, I am a small business man. I can’t afford a new car/truck payment now. How can I believe that if I am to pay more in taxes and then “someone” must buy from the top “3” for them to succeed? If I fail it is my family that suffers and the folks that provide me with supplies and services. Who can I turn to? It hurts to see our country in this shape but let them figure this out WITHOUT taxpayer money.
By Houckster
November 23, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
FELDHAHN writes: “For years, the Big Three automakers have known this day would come.
She then goes on to make the bankrupt case that the making a deal with the unions pulled the car companies down.
Both of these contentions are typical of the myopic conservative view.
Let’s get real here.
First of all, the automakers didn’t see all of this coming. $4 gas and the Americans finally drawing the line at that price level were news. While we all knew that eventually, the price of gas would force us to drive more efficient vehicles, the speed at which this situation came upon the auto makers was not predicted.
Credit huge levels of American foreign debt for driving the price of gasoline up as well as refined fuel capacity shortages. Credit the war on terror for driving up the price of oil all through the production cycle. And Mother Nature cannot be excluded nor can the housing bubble that caught many Americans who took out home loans they shouldn’t have with no money to pay the increased house payment after teaser loan rates expired. Credit an incompetent administration for not putting a real energy policy into play. Credit the lack of a good national health care system for making the pensions the Big Three have to pay for a lot more expensive.
Nor is it fair to compare Toyota that has a relatively small retiree population with GM, Ford and Chrysler who have seen many more workers retire.
No, the automakers are not entirely to blame for their problems and it is pathetic to claim that it is so.
Yes, we should bail out the car companies. We should insist on an aggressive business plan that accelerates the schedule of fuel efficiency improvement. The low gas prices we have right now will not last. And where in this argument is the conservative’s stance on competition? Cancel out the Big Three and you leave the field open to just a few foreign car companies. That’s not good either.
We have the choice of letting these companies fail or making this crisis an opportunity to get America on the fast track to fuel efficiency. We’re up to this challenge. FELDHAHN view is for losers.
By Gary
November 23, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
The CEO’s should have carpooled. Let the auto industry borrow from the oil industry that they have sucked up to all these years.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 8:12 AM | Link to this
While I don’t like seeing the massive unemployment at least short-term that bankruptcy could cause, I see companies like Delta that did it and lived to tell about it. The employees who stayed and adjusted to the cuts in pay now work for a company that is able to reward them for their commitment and has come out returning to profitable status. The automakers HAVE to endure this same painful process, and they will be better for it. good post RF.
By joan
November 24, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this
When they start building “smart cars”, cars that get 100 MPG and begin building mass transit, then we might give them a hand out. We should not pay for their lack of foresight. They have dictated the type, style and size of the cars thus far…now, let the President and advisors set the standards for our cars and force the “now almost defunct” industry to think smart, think green and think resourceful….think modern technology rather than luxury and size….we are finished with the “super size” when it comes to cars. No more hummers…those things are not for the modern highway. THX
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Happy Monday all!!
Monica -
USinUK, or anyone, how much do you pay for universal health care? I mean, how much of your taxes go toward that? Would we see a huge difference in our taxes taken out of our paychecks?
I can’t speak to the difference between your taxes now and your taxes under Single-Payer healthcare, but what I can tell you is that my federal tax burden is pretty much the same here as it was when I was in the US (somewhere around 35-37% of my pay is deducted)
with that, I can: 1) go see my GP as often as I like for free - if I need to see a specialist, I need a referral (just like most health insurance), but can see him/her as often as I need
2) have a home health visitor for the first year after I give birth - they’ll keep an eye on the health of my child, answer any questions I have, etc
3) have a house call if I am house-bound
4) have emergency ambulance services without having to pay for it
5) all prescriptions are £10
6) access to a dentist for much lower cost
now, as I’ve said before, the NHS isn’t perfect. but, when my mother-in-law nearly died from pneumonia 18 months ago, she needed an ambulance to the hospital, she had an IV drip, a battery of x-rays, and she was admitted to the hospital for a week. her cost? £0.00. her paperwork?? there was none.
imagine if that had happened in the US - she’d have out-of-pocket expenses and a veritable forest of paperwork to complete for any reimbursements.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
Joan, I think we are pretty much finished with supersize period.
By napoleon
November 24, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
There is no mistake the government has a responsibility to the fortune 500 companies we are witnessing fail in recent years. The federal government recently announced Citigroup would be a recipient of over 20 million dollars. It seems that Citigroup will be the first on a long list of U. S. companies that will demand some assistance to stay afloat in these trying times. The passenger rail service and its systems have announced they will soon join the big three auto makers in a request for assistance. Expect American and United Airlines to join in the published federal bailout.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
Joan
No one wants to put their families in Styrofoam cars when they are traveling just inches from 40 ton 18 wheelers traveling 80 mph. Electric cars also emit energy fields that are about as harmful as depleted uranium. SUVs are horrible, but the alternative is not a car that weighs 800 lbs.
Unless we soon come up with a viable fuel that will push a real car or start making separate roads for the small cars, we will never move away from gasoline.
The Chevy Volt will sell for about 40 grand. I’ll stay with my old Volvo.
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
More inaccuracies…
No one wants to put their families in Styrofoam cars Not made from Styrofoam.
traveling just inches from 40 ton 18 wheelers traveling 80 mph. Who drives inches from them in any case? That style of driving is more of a danger than anything.
Electric cars also emit energy fields that are about as harmful as depleted uranium. Uranium? Absolute lie/exaggeration.
Is the field dangerous?Very Doubtful:
Some studies point to increased rates of health problems when exposed to types of electromagnetic fields that emit high frequency wave lengths, such as microwaves. However, the type of electromagnetic field emitted by electric motors are of the low frequency type, which means they dissipate fairly quickly. There have been no studies as of yet which test the hypothesis that long term exposure to the electromagnetic field emitted by hybrid cars causes health problems.
By RF
November 24, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
The Chevy Volt will sell for about 40 grand. I’ll stay with my old Volvo
Gotta agree with you there!! I’m planning on keeping the old Honda on the road as long as possible. According to my mechanic, it should make 500,000 if I keep it maintained. So far, so good.
40 grand- therein lies the problem. Even if they find a viable product, the big three are so burdened by overhead that they can’t produce bicycles for a reasonable price. Where’s the whole supply/demand principle? If people can’t buy your product, what difference does it make if you can provide it? The Detroit boys are going to have to adjust their thinking and learn to run a business on sound financial principles and the UAW is going to have to learn what reasonable wages and work are all about.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Got an offer on my house this weekend. Not a great offer, but it would cover the mortgage and pay for the new central air. I wasn’t really thinking about selling it, but I would love to get out from under this mortgage.
Joke
*Who drives inches from them in any case? *
Do you never pass cars on the interstate? That puts you inches away from 18 wheelers.
But the more important question is, why woul you go out of your way to ask such a dumb question? Is it going to be another week of your nose being up my butt?
By Mara
November 24, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
No one wants to put their families in Styrofoam cars. and Not made from Styrofoam
shouldn’t that be “polystyrene” instead of the brand-name Styrofoam? I believe that Styrofoam would be too soft for the application…unless you made it about a foot thick. Polystyrene, on the other hand, can be manufactured in various hardnesses.
;^P
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
RF
I heard this weekend that the average hourly wage of a Michigan auto worker is $72/Hour. Can that be right? Average? I thought it was about $30. That’s almost 3 grand a week, over 150 grand a year.
Making $150 grand a year but having to live in the rust belt. I guess there is a God.
By RF
November 24, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
USinUK- while many fear changing healthcare, I’m not as convinced as I used to be about it. I recently spent a night at the local hospital with chest pains. Turned out to be nothing but some possible acid reflux/developing hiatal hernia, but I got several bills for this and that not covered by United HC. Then, the icing on the cake- UHC sent a letter saying I shouldn’t have been admitted without permission. HELLOOOOO- middle of the night, guy in his mid-forties with chest pains, tests to run…. what, was I supposed to wait until business hours to find out if I was having the big one?? SHEESH!!
There are a great many changes coming here in the good ‘ol USA, and some won’t be pleasant for a lot of people. Healthcare that reasonably covers all citizens is one thing we HAVE to find a way to manage. I hate seeing the way the elderly are treated, and considering how many retirees may lose health benefits as companies try to reduce the bottom line, we’re going to be forced to do something, and soon.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Do you never pass cars on the interstate? That puts you inches away from 18 wheelers. That much weight at 70mph? I’d like a lot of space. However, my early 70’s Honda Civic, (you remember the tiny one, not the bitty one, but the next size up… a little bigger than the smart car.) cost $1500 and had terrific gas mileage, was very steady on the hiway when passed by the big rigs. It depends a lot on design. Somehow those cars did not budge when passed by a semi. The point being, it can be done. Of course, I wouldn’t have wanted to be rear-ended by an Olds 98. Boy, did that car scamper.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
JokesOn - Who drives inches from them in any case?
even IF you’re a full mile behind another vehicle, technically you ARE only “inches” from it. 63,360 inches, to be exact.
Other examples:
There are only 123,171,840 inches between Atlanta and Los Angeles.
The average person walks at an average speed of 190,080 inches per hour.
the circumferance of the moon is (approx.) 430,214,400 inches.
See? Just because something is “only inches away” doesn’t really mean what you think it means…technically.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
Mara
Unfortunately cars have used a very lightweight materal that is almost identical to Styrofoam for several years. I had a 93 Nissan before I bought my Z, and when I had to replace the bumper, it was a metal brace that was surrounded by that stuff, wrapped in a rubber like plastic. My kid has a Honda Insite and when you crawl under the thing, it looks like the whole car is made out of it.
We are going to have to see some energy source that has enough power to push larger cars. I agree that those ugly, ill engineered SUVs are on the way out, but these tiny little cars will never sell as long as trucks share the roadway. Don’t get me wrong. I had five Fiats, including an 850 Spyder that three people could pick up and carry off.
I’m thinking that T. Boone Pickens might have the right idea until the fuel cell cars come out. .
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Do you never pass cars on the interstate? That puts you inches away from 18 wheelers.
I am 2-3 feet from cars/trucks as I pass. You should try it.
But the more important question is, why woul you go out of your way to ask such a dumb question? Hmmm. Seeing as the width of a 97 chevy s10 blazer is 8.9 feet (that is an over-sized vehicle, mind you), and highways are designed at a 12 foot minimum….can you do the math? Hint, you have a 2 foot clearance without even adding in the 2 feet from the other lane. So, “dumb” does not really apply since I am right. You are not “inches” away, less you drive like a fool.
Is it going to be another week of your nose being up my butt? Ahhhh. Nice to see you have not changed a bit. I will keep posting, to you and whomever I see fit. Are we going to get to see you spin out of control again? Or, do you have something other than middle school comments exaggerations and lies?
Maybe you should be honest as simply say you do not trust them, yet have no real reason not to.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
RF - many fear changing healthcare, I’m not as convinced as I used to be about it.
US News and World Report had an interesting article positing that “Obamacare” (aka universal healthcare) would lead to the demise of the GOP, sort of the same way the Tories got marginalized after Labour initiated Britains universal healthplan.
( for the link add the www. etc to - usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/11/21/how-tom-daschle-might-kill-conservatism.html )
Recently, I stumbled across this analysis of how nationalized healthcare in Great Britain affected the political environment there. As Norman Markowitz in Political Affairs, a journal of “Marxist thought,” puts it: “After the Labor Party established the National Health Service after World War II, supposedly conservative workers and low-income people under religious and other influences who tended to support the Conservatives were much more likely to vote for the Labor Party when health care, social welfare, education and pro-working class policies were enacted by labor-supported governments.”
Passing Obamacare would be like performing exactly the opposite function of turning people into investors. Whereas the Investor Class is more conservative than the rest of America, creating the Obamacare Class would pull America to the left. Michael Cannon of the Cato Institute, who first found that wonderful Markowitz quote, puts it succinctly in a recent blog post: “Blocking Obama’s health plan is key to the GOP’s survival.”
So…given that prognosis, how helpful do you think the GOP will be in trying to find solutions to the increasingly difficult problem of affordable healthcare?
By Gale
November 24, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
Gentlemen! Please do not start already today. Unlike TOJ, I am begining to think you two are the same person just wanting to be the center of attention. Keep it up and soon no one will respond to either of you. Drop the sarcasm. Grow a thick skin. Stop insulting each other and stick to a topic. It is so much more interesting.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Gale
The original Civic. Sure. That was a cool little car, especially when the average car was as big as a house. I loved my Fiats. They were as small and really not that fast, but you felt like you were going about 100 mph and they red-lined at 7,000 rpms. They sounded like a Ferrari and they handled like one, too. They just didn’t go very fast.
I always wanted an original Austin mini, not the modern version. They would regularly destroy Corvettes at the old SCCA rallies. A guy that lived near me had a BMW Isetta. en. wikipedia. org/ wiki/ BMW _ Isetta One door in the front, not the side. That was VERY cool.
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
See? Just because something is “only inches away” doesn’t really mean what you think it means…technically.
I was waiting for toj to use that one!
If you look at the damage “safe” cars cause in a wreck, you will see that volvos, like suvs, cause a lot of damage. Until people get away from these metal/rigid cars, small cars will be perceived by some as less safe. Catch 22 that is fueled by selfishness.
(had a longer post with numbers but it got lost. So, this was the short version)
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Gale,
Gentlemen! Please do not start already today. Unlike TOJ, I am begining to think you two are the same person just wanting to be the center of attention. Keep it up and soon no one will respond to either of you. Drop the sarcasm. Grow a thick skin. Stop insulting each other and stick to a topic. It is so much more interesting.
Sorry, but he responds to me the same way every time…even when I am not here. So, talk to TOJ - my post was straight forward.
(I do feel for you all, but until TOJ, I too enjoyed this blog a lot more. There would be occasional drama, but minimal. Now we get to hear toj call the women on here “fat b!tches” when he does not like being corrected.)
By Mara
November 24, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
TOJ - Unfortunately cars have used a very lightweight materal that is almost identical to Styrofoam for several years.
almost identical, or identical? See “Styrofoam’ is a brand-name for expanded polystyrene foam (or polystyrene thermal insulation, more properly), which is fine for things like cups, packaging material, and disposable coolers…but not necessarily a good product for building cars out of.
Which is pretty much what you said…Styrofoam cars.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
TOJ, yep, the smaller the car, the faster the spped perception. I loved doing 45 with the top down in my MG. It feels so much faster. On the other side, I found myself doing 85 in a Dodge Polara without realizing it. Not a pretty ticket.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
USinUK
So…given that prognosis, how helpful do you think the GOP will be in trying to find solutions to the increasingly difficult problem of affordable healthcare?
Here’s the situation. If Martin wins in Georgia and the comedian wins in Minn, the democrats will control the House, completely control the senate, have the White House, three justices are about to retire so they will also own the SCOTUS, they already control 90% of television and if Pelosi gets her way they will enact the Fairness acr which will make talk radio not economically viable.
So why does it matter what the GOP does? The British Parliament has more power in Washington than the GOP. But you just remember this in four years when kids will be covered, but people like RF and myself will still be paying a fortune for worthless health insurance.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Mara
It might actually be Styrofoam. Whatever it is, I agree that it is not a good material to build cars out of. After a really quick search, I found this on the results page: 93 RX-7 Used bumper styrofoam inserts. $75 each. So I think it really is Styrofoam.
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Got an offer on my house this weekend. Not a great offer, but it would cover the mortgage and pay for the new central air. I wasn’t really thinking about selling it, but I would love to get out from under this mortgage.
no way! you going to stay in the same area or move into the exurbs? way to go (I guess) - although, moving all your editing kit is going to be a swift pain, I would imagine.
I heard this weekend that the average hourly wage of a Michigan auto worker is $72/Hour. Can that be right? Average? I thought it was about $30. That’s almost 3 grand a week, over 150 grand a year.
when looking up the health-care stats I posted on Friday, I saw this two - the stat is extremely misleading. That amount also includes health care and pension benefits such as what the company pays to current retirees as well as to current workers, and so greatly inflates the “average wage.”
most stats I’ve seen site the average wage for those working (not retired) is around $23-ish.
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
So why does it matter what the GOP does?
um. I didn’t make the statement you’re referring to.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
JokesON, I agree your first comment was reasonably straightforward and TOJ erupted at it. I swear, sometimes the two of you seem like Jeckle and Hyde.
By Gale
November 24, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
Hmm, possible voters would lean to the party that gave them UHC, assuming it is done well and people are happy with it. But the demise of the GOP? That is saying a lot. But even after this election, I think the GOP needs to find some new issues to hang their hats on. The standard rants aren’t making it with the voters.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I have a client that has offered to let me move into his condo in Avondale as a tradeout for few days a month of work. Two bedroom, two bath. decent, not new but nice in a nicer neighborhood that this.
My editing system is four computers and a couple of tape decks. Only one of them actually edits and the other three render 3-D (and allow me to waste the day on W2W.) It’s not like it used to be. I got rid of the big console when I moved to the city from the burbs.
My credit cards are paid off and I could be out from under the mortgage. I don’t think I have ever been that debt free since becoming an adult (Whenever the hell that happened, or has it yet?).
I thought 72 bucks an hour sounded crazy. My buddy at the GM plant in Doraville was making about 55/hour, but he was a contractor that was a specialist. He did something with controlling the line and would trouble shoot problems. He has moved to Louisville to build Corvettes. i think he took a slight pay cut, but he is from there so he was glad to go home.
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
RF -
Turned out to be nothing but some possible acid reflux/developing hiatal hernia, but I got several bills for this and that not covered by United HC. Then, the icing on the cake- UHC sent a letter saying I shouldn’t have been admitted without permission. HELLOOOOO- middle of the night, guy in his mid-forties with chest pains, tests to run…. what, was I supposed to wait until business hours to find out if I was having the big one?? SHEESH!
RF - I’m so sorry you went through the scare … and then the screw!
My own health care story: 3 years ago, I had a breast cancer scare - was going through my regular “she’s a bad mammagramma” when they found something that didn’t present like cancer, but definitely didn’t look “normal”. Another mammogram, a sonagram, a needle biopsy and a lumpectomy later, and I had medical bills of around $3,500 - and that’s WITH fantastic insurance through my employer.
When I was paying my bills, I noticed that the doctors included a breakdown that showed you what their fees would have been if you didn’t have insurance … I would have been charged $18,000 for the same treatment.
$18,000.
That’s some people’s entire salary for a year.
That’s why I always want to shake people who say “I don’t need insurance” or “we should do away with insurance and just let the market dictate.
First of all, purchasing medical care isn’t like purchasing a pair of sneakers - you can’t really “bargain shop” for an x-ray/MRI/sonagram. Not to mention, would you want to visit the “cheapest” X-Ray? (helllloooooo radiation!)
Secondly, insurance companies, for all their crappiness, actually do negotiate for the best prices because they essentially “buy in bulk” - doctors know they will have X number of patients and that they will get paid (which is why uninsured prices are so inflated).
Lastly, did I mention that you don’t want to bargain shop for your health care? Criminey - and, since I know Bru-dog would say this, I’ll say it first - I value my boobs too much to leave their care to some bargain-basement quack (same goes for my cervix, my uterus, my heart, etc etc etc).
To me, the ideal situation is a single-payer service with “top-up” insurance if you’d like to opt-in. That’s just my £0.02.
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
JokesON, I agree your first comment was reasonably straightforward and TOJ erupted at it. I swear, sometimes the two of you seem like Jeckle and Hyde.
When I get sick of his insults I do shoot back. But, I think if you looked at the posts you would find that it takes a few to get me to sink to his level - and please understand that I am not proud of it.
I have offered a truce (I think my words were: “we do not have to agree and can still argue, but lets do it without the snide comments and insults) three times that I can recall. He has responded each time with more insults. That includes the times that bloggers requested that it stop: I agreed and he chose to go on an insulting rant.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Sorry, that was Mara. But I thought that you two were the same, anyway. LOL
But if the condo in Avondale doesn’t work out, I always wanted to live abroad. How does your couch sleep? And i have a dog and a cat.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this
Gale
I said one line to Joke an hour and a half ago after he jumped me for using the term “inches”. He is still whining. He wants to be the victim all day. if you want to coddle him and let him continue this all day, have at it.
You guys have a good one. I have tons of work.
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
Sorry, that was Mara. But I thought that you two were the same, anyway. LOL
:-) I take that as a huge compliment - Mara rocks!
But if the condo in Avondale doesn’t work out, I always wanted to live abroad. How does your couch sleep? And i have a dog and a cat.
well, now is the time to do it - your money will go a lot further (someone spiked the USD with go-juice and it’s the strongest its been against Sterling that I can remember). Mr. USinUK would love the dog, but would have something to say about the kitteh. (Me, I’d love both of them!)
By JokesOn
November 24, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
I said one line to Joke an hour and a half ago after he jumped me for using the term “inches”
See Gale. I jumped him! I did not correct him with valid numbers…
To him, any confrontation is an attack.
And He wants to be the victim all day. is simply insane. He freaked out on the first post and played the victim card just now. I have yet to “complain”…
He says whatever he feels like without there being a shred of factual basis for it to rely on when “attacked.” It is a good way to manipulate people since these people cannot be negotiated with, eliminating the possibility of compromise….Add to it the rants, threats of freak outs and personal pity party lies; and you have TOJ.
The guy is not here to learn or discuss like adults. Period. When he called Sunshine and USinUK “Fat B!tches,” he lost even more cred on here and proves he will attack anyone if he feels threatened.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
TOJ - I heard this weekend that the average hourly wage of a Michigan auto worker is $72/Hour. Can that be right?
I did some hunting because it sounded a bit off to me too. The answer is…depends on how you define “wage”.
from the American Prospect:
The NYT told readers that GM’s autoworkers are paid $70 an hour (including health care and pension). This is not true. The base pay is about $28 an hour. If health care cost per worker average $12,000 per year, that adds in another $6 an hour. If the pension payment takes up 25 percent of base pay (an extremely high pension), that gets you another $7 an hour, bringing the total to $41 an hour. That’s decent pay, but still a long way from $70 an hour.
How does the NYT get from $41 to $70? Well the trick is to add in GM’s legacy costs, the pension and health care costs for retired workers. These legacy costs are a serious expense for GM, but this is not money being paid to current workers. The person on the line in 2008 is not benefiting from these legacy costs.
[snip]
…In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.
to break it down into its simplest components, lets look at GM. The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28 per hour in wages. The $70 per hour figure (or $73 an hour, or whatever) is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM’s total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.
Now, $28/hour is still good wages, but nowhere near $70. It might even be considered poor wages if you compare it to the average hourly wage of a Big Three CEO…which is about $9500.00 per hour regardless of their competence on the job.
By RF
November 24, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
Mara- the good ‘ol boys in the GOP will fight healthcare kicking and screaming if it in any way undermines the profit potential of the insurance industry. Even with rising health problems and several large natural disasters, insurance, like big oil is making profit. Hmmmmm, connect the dots and see how many dollars you see going into congressmen’s wallets from those two industries!
USinUK- it is frightening when you realize how quickly bills mount up. My brother ended up with an ER bill of over $3000 for what amounted to a treatable infection which only needed a strong antibiotic. If he had insurance, it would have been less than half that. What’s sad is how many of our working poor and middle class who don’t have insurance find themselves on the paying end of that. I suspect as the economy worsens, quite a few more will realize the importance of some form of universal care once they find themselves out of work and having to take whatever jobs they can find to pay the bills.
I also agree that insurance, unlike car shopping, doesn’t need to be a bargain hunt. What few realize is that a great percentage of the population has some form of pre-existing medical condition that will cost them WAY more than they pay now, even with “competition” in the marketplace. I absolutely don’t want the insurance companines having that much control over the decision making process. We’ll end up with nothing better than we have now. My two boys have mild asthma—no serious attacks in several years, but still it is an existing condition that will allow insurance companies to place my family in a ‘high risk’ category. Without any set federal guidelines, I’d have to shop around and, I’m sure, take some sort of less beneficial insurance at a significantly higher rate. I pay over two grand a year now not including deductibles and co-pays. I can’t imagine what I’d have in the GOP healthcare system.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
USinUK - I take that as a huge compliment - Mara rocks!
right back atcha, darlin’!!
By RF
November 24, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
Mara- the salary issue in pervasisve. Even in teaching, we see the great divide between what I make (roughly $35 an hour before taxes after TWENTY years in the classroom) and what the superintendent makes (somewhere in the low $100+ range an hour just guesstimating). Bare minimum, the guy makes four to five times an hour what I do, at least. And his job depends on me doing mine well! I love my job and I’d do it for a lot less (I did for a very long time before getting a master’s degree), but it does seem we have an entitlement mentality that has developed at the upper end of the employment ladder. I just don’t understand why CEO’s and upper management deserve pay that is so, so far beyond the rest.
At $28 an hour, it’s no wonder American cars are so pricey. Look at the non-union foreign car plants. They don’t pay as much, but the workers are happy and still have jobs at the moment. I bet the UAW folks are looking at the non-union automakers differently now!
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
UsinUk
Tell your hubby that the cat has been regularly whipping the dog since it was a kitten. I have found one mouse inside and three outside that it killed. And in this neighborhood, a good mouser is a very good cat.
The house vs the condo deal isn’t for sure until after the first of the year, but I am really starting to hope it works out. Every job I have, except one, will be gone after then.
You mentioned Mike Rowe last week with Dirty Jobs. He was a regular on QVC for a little while. I don’t normally watch it, but he was so funny that I would go there looking for him. My GF was crazy about him.
I love that show, (Dirty Jobs) but it is all about his humor. Without him, it would not be much of a show.
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
Mara
$9500/hour. Now that’s what I am talking about. That would be worth getting up in the morning. Hey, I’m a CEO. (Not really. I’m a small business owner), but I just hired a CEO and it’s me.
I didn’t think that was right, but I still say that the technology for building cars has been held back by the UAW. Whatever, I will drive the old beast (the Volvo) until the wheels fall off and then I will look for some more wheels.
*right back atcha, darlin’!! *
If you guys are going to start making out, I want pictures. I have so little to get excited about now. LOL.
RF
I’m tellin’ ya man, you or I will be the last to benefit from anyone’s health plan. We are not poor and we are not kids. We have more health problems than anyone and die sooner than anyone. We are simply not a politically correct demographic.
Can you hear the political speeches: and I promise health care for middle aged men. Yeah right.
We would be the last to get it. Obama-care is for people who don’t already have health insurance.
He has already backed out of getting us out of Iraq and canceling the Bush tax cuts. Wasn’t that the only two things that he actually promised other than hope and change?
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
USinUK
I just checked Wikipedia. Mike Rowe was an opra singer.
Damn. I’m impressed.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
RF - At $28 an hour, it’s no wonder American cars are so pricey. Look at the non-union foreign car plants. They don’t pay as much, but the workers are happy and still have jobs at the moment. I bet the UAW folks are looking at the non-union automakers differently now!
well, hold on there. I think the connection between wages and vehicle cost might be a stretch. American automakers have to make a certain amount over and above wage and materials simply to service their retired workforce. It isn’t today’s wages that are strangling these companies, it’s the pensions and health costs of yesterdays workers. If you look at what the workers actually make, the wages aren’t all that different:
Honda’s U.S. hourly workers…$26.20 with bonuses.
Nissan workers are paid $24 an hour in Mississippi and $26 an hour in Tennessee, but company officials would not disclose employee bonuses. (that means if you include bonuses, they might even make more than UAW members)
Hyundai Motor Co. pays its U.S. production workers less than other automakers. Wages at its Alabama plant start at $14 an hour and grow to $21 an hour after two years on the job…
see, the reality is that the Big Three have to charge more for their cars because they’ve made commitments to their retired workforce that they are obligated to fulfill. The foreign manufacturers don’t have that added expense so can sell more cheaply and still make the same profit margin.
By Frustrated
November 24, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
I just checked Wikipedia. Mike Rowe was an opra singer.
Yes!!!! And there is an episode where he sings the “Dirty Job” song…I LOVE Mike Rowe…. He is up there with Tim Gunn in my book..
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
Frustrated
And there is an episode where he sings the “Dirty Job” song
I saw that. Not exactly opra, but it was very funny.
By Yep
November 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
It isn’t today’s wages that are strangling these companies, it’s the pensions and health costs of yesterdays workers.
and it is my understanding that the American Big Three did not properly plan financially for those future known obligations. what should have been and in fact was set aside was squandered elsewhere. weren’t they robbing the pension funds in years past?
By USinUK
November 24, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Mara -
The answer is…depends on how you define “wage”. from the American Prospect:
thanks for having my back - I could find citations of it, but I couldn’t find the original source!
TOJ -
as for Mr USinUK - doesn’t matter if the cat is a mouser or not - he just doesn’t “get” cats. I love the kittehs - they’re the perfect pet, if you ask me. Or, at least mine always were
as for Dirty Jobs - you’re right - Mike makes the show. he’s got just the right amount of sarcasm that tells you he respects the jobs he’s profiling, but can still find the humor in them
an opera singer, you say? that is impressive … although, not dirty.
By Monica
November 24, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the info USinUK. 35% of your income in taxes and health care? Ouch! I just figured mine and taxes and health care are roughly 20% of my check, not counting disability insurance.
My son is having tubes in his ears this week. We went for the pre-op today, and the doctor’s estimated portion is $1300 (that doesn’t count the hospital part). He told me himself that it takes about 15-20 minutes to make the incision and insert the tubes. Wow - talk about an hourly rate of pay!!
Hi RF! Sorry to hear about your experience. I had to take my husband to the ER in May (day before the last day of school), and the ER doctor was not in United HC’s network, even though the hospital was, so we had to pay the difference there. Still not bad when I compared our state govt health plan to those of my friends.
By Mara
November 24, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
USinUK - doesn’t matter if the cat is a mouser or not - he just doesn’t “get” cats
maybe it’s a matter of experience. Mr. Mara was a self-affirmed “dog person” when we met. Avoided the feline species, and when he couldn’t avoid them, he went out of his way to annoy them until they left him alone. LOL! That was before he spent any amount of time with them. After six years of living with ‘em, HE’S the one who rescued and brought home our youngest. HE’S the one who reminds me when they need their flea treatments, and HE’S the one they look up to. The way they act, I’m just good for the cuddles and feeding. HE’S the “king” :^)
By The Other Jack
November 24, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Mara, USinUK
I have a very cool tom cat. The thing that most guys don’t understand is that 90% of anything a cat does stems from the fact that they are extremely efficient predators. Even the “wagging” of their tail is supposed to distract their prey. A dog wags when he is happy, a cat wags when they are upset or on the prowl.
OK, since you think I am crazy anyway, I’ll go ahead and tell you this. When i adopted the cat, a friend gave me a book about cats (which of course I can’t find now to tell you the name), but it was written by a very strange woman who had some crazy ideas about cats. She claimed that she could communicate with her cat by sending the cat mental pictures. Like if she wanted the cat to relax and calm down, she would form a mental picture of the cat curled up in the cat’s bed or in her arms. I thought it was crap, but I started trying it. She said that it would take a while for the cat to figure out what you were doing, but the first time I tried it, the cat got this really strange look on it’s face. Pretty soon, I really think that it started reacting to this technique. It doesn’t work all the time, but it’s a cat. He may be getting the images, but he’s a cat and he just doesn’t care.
My cat loves to play my keyboard. In fact, he loves it so much that I had to turn them off at night because he loves the 3AM concert. But during the day, if I think about an image of him walking back and forth on the keys, many times he will go straight to the keys and start walking up and down the keyboard.
I demonstrated this to my daughter and she flipped out. She now swears that she and her cat can communicate BOTH ways. I’m not quite there yet, but I swear it does work, at least some of the time.
Give it a shot. Make sure the cat is already giving you it’s complete attention and think about an image of what you want it to do.
Yes, I know. Sounds crazy, but it’s a cat. And remember, only use your powers for good.
By Sunshine
November 24, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Hello All!
Haven’t been able to post yet today, been swamped! And me and the bun in the oven had a Dr. appointment this morning! Great comments all, funny to see everyone to agree! Will post as I can! PS-I have a soft spot for men who love cats!
By Gale
November 24, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
TOJ, my cat usually send me images. empty dish human filling my dish
Most people forget they are preditors. I often remind myself that I would be in big trouble if I shrunk. His decision process is: Too big to eat, ignore it, but keep an eye on it. Small enough to eat? How easy is it to catch?
By Frustrated
November 24, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
I saw that. Not exactly opra, but it was very funny.
Oh sorry, I wasn’t meaning that the song was Opera…I just thought of that episode…
HAHAHAHA, when I first read your post, I thought you said Okra….HAHA..ok, that is enough for one day, I am on holiday overload already…sigh
By NetBanker
November 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Hey kids! Just taking a moment to pop in and then out because I’m on vacation for the rest of the week!! On the topic…no, don’t bail them out because bankruptcy doesn’t mean out of business or even loss of jobs. Just look at the airline industry. And can anyone state that cars are more important than airlines in this day and age? The airline industry also supports millions of adjuct jobs too, but declaring bankruptcy didn’t result in doom and destruction. We’re setting a scary precedent on all these darn bail outs.
Off topic….I hope everyone has a safe holiday and enjoys a little down time. Eat LOTS! I’m off to go for a walk on the beach with the dog. Happy Thanksgiving!!
By Gale
November 25, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
TOJ, Didn’t you say you were going to the beach? Is it warm? I need some images of warm.
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Yes, I know. Sounds crazy, but it’s a cat. And remember, only use your powers for good.
hahahahaha … best line I’ve read all day
you’ve made me miss my cat sooooooooo much!! he was a big, fat orange tabby - he was about as much good at mousing as a damp sponge. he also thought it was a great, big scary world outside my front door, so wanted no part of it (although, he did like to sit on the stoop and feel the breeze on his face).
however, where I lived in ATL, there were a bunch of squirrels that realized he was indoors and wasn’t going out, so they used to sit right outside the door, eating their acorns and taunting him. he, of course, would sit there, crouched down, tail twitching, doing the little “I’m gonna pounce!!!” butt dance and making that funny chirping noise they make … it always reminded me of the Cowardly Lion saying “let me at ‘emmmm, let me at ‘emmmm”
he also used to love it when I would read magazines or catalogs - he’d lie riiiiiiiiight next to it and, each time the page would turn, he’d creep slightly onto the mag … turn the page, creep a little more … and so forth, until he was lying in the middle of it, looking up at me as if to say, “and now, you may pet me”
ahhhhhhh kittehs … how I loves them … and OH how I miss my sweet orange fatty guy …
By Gale
November 25, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
I once read the chirping sound is a way of moving the jaw in preparation for a killing chomp. That seemed odd since my orange tabby, the fantastic mouser always seemed intent on keeping them alive to play with for a while. Did I ever mention he snagged a bat from the air in a leap from my dresser one night? He was quite the hunter.
By The Other Jack
November 25, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
USinUK
My kid got in from Minn so I stuck around. We had a blast. He and his Mom are heading to Tennessee today.
The cat is pretty cool. He looks like a Russian Blue, but he is just a really big alley cat. Funny thing, he has never really decided where he’s going to sleep. Now that it’s cold, I find him all over the house, sleeping like a baby. I bought him a bed which he used for about a week, now he never goes near it.
We have a problem here with ferrell dogs that have killed every cat on my block except mine. Last spring, he staggered in with a couple of big puncture wounds, i think from the Great Dane next door. He healed amazingly fast, but I saw him react to the dog from across the street. He doesn’t hiss or arch his back, he runs straight up the nearest tree. That has probably saved his life.
These dogs are a big problem. They have attacked dogs that were being walked by their owners. Several neighbors have had to watch while they rip their pets apart in front of them. I have a 12 gauge surprise waiting for them, just inside my door, but they tend to stay away from this end of the street.
The pack is made up of Rottweilers and Pit Bulls with a shepherd or two so they are a very nasty bunch. One of the news stations did a story about them right before Halloween so animal control finally got off their butts and captured two of them so they seem to be less organized and since the weather has gotten cold, they are not nearly as active.
Gotta run. My kid and his Mom are pulling in the driveway. We are going to breakfast. Talk to you later.
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
The pack is made up of Rottweilers and Pit Bulls with a shepherd or two so they are a very nasty bunch. One of the news stations did a story about them right before Halloween so animal control finally got off their butts and captured two of them so they seem to be less organized and since the weather has gotten cold, they are not nearly as active.
geez-o-pete … that’s terrifying! those poor owners who lost pets to the feral dogs - I can’t imagine the heartache they felt! (I still remember when we lost the first dog I remember to a neighbor’s Shephard - my mom absolutely sobbed)
as for your cat deciding where to sleep … you’ve forgotten the first rule of cats: it’s their world, we just live in it.
have a great time with the fam!
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Gale -
Did I ever mention he snagged a bat from the air in a leap from my dresser one night? He was quite the hunter.
now THAT’s a mighty hunter!!!
I once read the chirping sound is a way of moving the jaw in preparation for a killing chomp
I always thought it was the kittehs trying to lull their prey into a false sense of security “looks like kitteh, sounds like birdeh” ;-)
By RF
November 25, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
My wonderful calico has three beanie baby toys she “adopted” from my boys when they were little that she has to “kill” every night and bring to us in bed. It’s hilarious— she waits until we’re all in bed and then there’s this horrible meowing from the living room where her toy basket is. It tends to scare overnight guests. Then, once the toys are sufficiently dead, she brings them into the bedrooms. If she is happy, they end up on the bed. If we’ve ignored her during the day, she drops them at the door.
The same cat woke me one night when my oldest was having a slight asthma attack. She heard him before I did and stood on my chest meowing until I woke up. She also hisses and bats at the boys’ legs when they argue. She definitely runs the house!
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
RF -
she waits until we’re all in bed and then there’s this horrible meowing from the living room where her toy basket is. It tends to scare overnight guests. Then, once the toys are sufficiently dead, she brings them into the bedrooms. If she is happy, they end up on the bed. If we’ve ignored her during the day, she drops them at the door.
YAY!!! that’s brilliant! I used to have another cat that would stalk and kill my roommate’s work socks (never gym socks, only work socks) - she’d do the same victory yowl as yours and deposit the sock in the living room (usually), but occasionally we’d find his socks in odd places.
I confess - while I loved my sock hunter, my heart belonged to my orange fatty guy … I guess it’s why I haven’t gotten another cat - no one else could come close to his fabulousity.
The same cat woke me one night when my oldest was having a slight asthma attack. She heard him before I did and stood on my chest meowing until I woke up. She also hisses and bats at the boys’ legs when they argue
what an awesome cat!!!
By Mara
November 25, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Cats rule. ‘nuff said. :^)
Well…According to the Government Accountability Office, privatizing government work doesn’t actually save us tax-payers any money. Not to put too fine a point on it…but Bush’s Labor Department actually misled Congress when pushing to open the bureaucracies to “competitive sourcing”. -
President George W. Bush’s Labor Department misled Congress in an effort to prove outsourcing jobs to private companies was more efficient than assigning the jobs to government employees, according to a Government Accountability Office report released Monday.
The report found that the Department used fictional projected numbers to improve “savings reports” — even when real numbers were already available. And when the government did find private firms to take a government job, that employee generally was either reassigned to another task with the same title or promoted.
The effort was called “competitive sourcing,” aimed to increase government efficiency by having federal and private organizations compete for providing services. While part of a federal government approach since 1955, the Bush Administration has made the approach a key element of the President’s Management Agenda under the Office of Management and Budget.
An investigation revealed, however, that the Labor Department — under direction from Bush budget officials — deliberately withheld information about true costs.
According to the report, the Department of Labor “excluded a number of substantial costs in its reports to Congress — such as the costs for precompetition planning, certain transition costs and staff time and post competition review activities — thereby understanding the full costs of this contracting approach.”
By Archie
November 25, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
18,000. That’s some people’s entire salary for a year. that’s why I always want to shake people who say “I don’t need insurance” or “we should do away with insurance and just let the market dictate. Those statements are so true USinUk but people just won’t use their common sense if it interferes with believing in the political association. It physically hurts some people to admit that a liberal idea is just the right thing to do. To me, the ideal situation is a single-payer service with “top-up” insurance if you’d like to opt-in. That’s just my £0.02. I agree with that statement but the politics get in the way and people hang onto to something that’s not in their best interest and I find that incredible. The thing is my governor thinks college tuition is too high and my liberal behind agrees with his conservative behind,why, because it’s in my best interest that tuition go down or at least be more affordable in the next 6 years. See it works like this if you don’t have any health insurance and you make less than the top 2 percent of inoome earners in the country then you need to support a national healthcare plan because it’s in your best interest. I would love for health insurance premiums to be what they were in 1984 but you know what, so many other things have changed.
I will say this though that my family members agree with Andrea and I presented my argument against bailing out automakers but I am not committed hardcore against a bailout. I’ve been laid off so I don’t want anyone to go thru hard times just to make a point.
By Mara
November 25, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Interesting bits o’ trivia and some perspective regarding the automaker bailout from economist (and Ron Paul supporter) Pete Cline -
Ford has owned a majority stake in Mazda for decades. Nearly every vehicle in Mazda’s lineup is platform shared with a Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, or Volvo.
Until last year GM was the majority stake holder in Subaru. GM sold off their shares to Toyota. Ditto Isuzu.
Mitsubishi has been kept afloat for decades by Chrysler. In the 80’s and 90’s about half of the entire lineup at Chrysler was platform shared with Mitsubishi. Engines and transmissions are still shared today.
Toyota and GM share a factory in California. The factory produces the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, and Pontiac Vibe.
BMW has used GM automatic transmissions on and off for years. BMW paid GM to develop the automatic transmission in the BMW 5-series and Cadillac CTS.
GM, Chrysler, and Mercedes Benz have a joint venture to build hybrid powertrains.
Chrysler alone, backing out of a deal to buy automatic transmissions, forced transmission manufacturer Getrag into bankruptcy. Getrag supplies transmissions for every auto manufacturer.
Ford and Nissan buy their hybrid technology from Toyota.
All of the auto manufacturers share suppliers. Any one of the Domestic 3 failing would likely take out the other two and severely damage the foreign owned companies ability to continue to operate here. That’s not to say they don’t need to reorganize, but to even do that they have to be able to make payroll and buy materials. That is what this loan is about.
Additionally, to the foreign governments who are planning to protest any bailout by the US government as unfair to imports, the imports have been getting their own “bailout” for years via socialized medicine and other government subsidies.
(to access this link, add http:// to the following ~ organizationsandmarkets.com/2008/11/21/in-praise-of-the-us-auto-industry/
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
Mara -
According to the report, the Department of Labor “excluded a number of substantial costs in its reports to Congress — such as the costs for precompetition planning, certain transition costs and staff time and post competition review activities — thereby understanding the full costs of this contracting approach.”
Lying in the Bush administration??? I’m shocked. shocked to find gambling in this establishment.
(((sigh)))
Archie -
I agree with that statement but the politics get in the way and people hang onto to something that’s not in their best interest and I find that incredible.
I blame it on a campaign of fear and lies - “oooooooo … socialized medicine … booga-booga! … rationing treatment … long lines … booga-booga! … the government … boooooo booga-booga”
people don’t know anything about it - but, I guarantee you that, if they actually traveled outside the US and needed to see a doctor, they’d understand that it isn’t the bogeyman that some make it out to be.
I’ve been laid off so I don’t want anyone to go thru hard times just to make a point
I hear that. I’ve been there, too - it’s a scary place. I also try to take the larger view - the higher the unemployment number, the longer it’s going to take us to get out of this thing. while the Big Three may survive Chapter 11, their suppliers won’t - which could affect more than 4 million workers.
considering unemployment already stands at 4 million (as of last month’s data), I don’t think doubling that number is conducive to getting us out of this recession. YMMV.
By Archie
November 25, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
Good post at 11:03 Mara. More lies from the Bush administration for politics sake versus the good of the country. The thing is a few well-connected contractors benefit not the country and that goes for republicans and democrats because you know the democrats benefit their friends too. Good post Mara.
By RF
November 25, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Dang Mara, you sho do have the facts this week!! Keep it up- you have me digging and checking, which is always a good thing! The automakers are linked enough these days that one, let’s say GM, going into bankruptcy isn’t going to significantly impact the others long term it seems. While I’m still undecided on the bailout, I’d be interested to see how bankruptcy of one or several automakers would affect the remaining. I also think we need to look at each of the individual companies and see how they are handling pension/healthcare/benefits costs at this point. There’s clearly a lot to learn and a free for all bailout won’t teach anyone anything. Interesting info. on how interconnected the auto manufacturing community is.
As Delta and other companies have learned (and the govt. should have learned already), privatizing services, while it looks good on paper, is a disaster. You have too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, and no real oversight and control of what is done. Delta has had to deal with some serious customer service/consumer confidence issues since privatizing some of their sevices. Privatizing government services isn’t the answer. Fiscal responsibility and service efficiency is possible with some oversight and quality control within current structures.
USinUK- she’s an awesome cat and even rules the dogs, who are five times her size. She’s the queen and knows it. She waits at the foot of my bed in the morning and gets impatient if I don’t make the bed early. Her majesty’s lounge must be properly adorned and neat, you know!! LOL
By The Other Jack
November 25, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Extremely busy day, but just a thought on the general problems of business.
To say that they are not regulated enough is nuts. The government should not be involved in the running of major US companies.
The problems are first, union control, and secondly, short term management. The unions have stifled technology in the assembly process as Mara has pointed out showing that many of the parts are interchangeable. The cars should work well, but they are being assembled just like they assembled the 1964 GTO. Great technology at the time, but not in 2008. I don’t mind workers having great benifits and kudos to the unions for that, but the forced hiring of hundreds or thousands of workers that are simply not needed is breaking the backs of the auto makers. You simply don’t need six people to staple on a piece of upholstery.
The second is a management system that greatly encourages advancement based on the bottom line. Managers cut quality controls to produce more, making their bottom line look great, so they are quickly advanced. Of course the cars suffer.
Yes, cats are cool. Dogs are pretty cool, too, except Pit Bulls and Rotts. I think they all should be cool, as in acquiring room temperature cool. Dogs that have been bred for generations to have no brains and be natural born killers should not be allowed to be owned by individuals. Once small little men finally figure out that owning a Pit Bull does not increase the size of you-know-what, they should give it up, but they don’t.
Although I must say, this crap with Micheal Vick is ridicules. NFL players beat the hell out of wives and girlfriends and are given a slap on the wrist. Vick sponsors dog fighting and his carreer is ruined and he goes to jail. In the words of Jerry Seinfeld: How long have I been asleep?
Have a good one, everyone. Back to work.
By Archie
November 25, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Mara your 11:17 am post may cause me to change from a position I stated earlier in the week. I don’t want to do it but I may have to change and join Andrea and my family members on this topic because my thought was that Toyota and other foreign carmakers would absorb a lot of the displaced workers from the Big Three quickly but if all of these automakers are already connected then my theory would be damaged. I may have to support a bailout if people have nowhere to go. It always helps to have information. Another good post Mara.
By Mara
November 25, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
USinUK - I’m shocked. shocked to find gambling in this establishment
LOL!!! Good ‘un. I’m not exactly surprised that it happened. I’m more surprised that anybody bothered to check on it. Woulda been nicer if they had done it before Bush changed the hiring structure, though.
Archie - you are too kind. Thank you. I agree that a certain…quid pro quo…exists between both parties and their supporters. Hopefully the Obama administration will search out friends who are qualified for the jobs instead of simply assigning partisan loyalists who need to be rewarded.
RF - Dang Mara, you sho do have the facts this week!!
Thanks, RF. It’s just that I read…a lot.
On the automakers, the push for globalization of trade has inextricably linked markets to the point that if one fails, it dominoes across the globe. Kinda the “butterfly effect” of international commerce. And it doesn’t just apply to cars, either. Watch out for down-stream parts manufacturers to get hit soon.
By Mara
November 25, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
NFL players beat the hell out of wives and girlfriends and are given a slap on the wrist. Vick sponsors dog fighting and his carreer is ruined and he goes to jail
just my opinion, but as horrible as domestic abuse is (and it is horrifying) the women have a voice, they have rights, and they have access to remedy. They can press charges, sue the h-ll out of their abuser, tell the tabloids, and publicize the assault.
The dogs that Vick abused had none of that. They were imprisoned, forced to fight for their lives, beaten and abused. IMO, there is very little difference between the abuse of a voiceless animal and the abuse of a small child. But at least the child might be able to tell someone, a teacher, a playmate, a grandparent or the like.
I feel absolutely NO compassion for Vick.
and that’s all I got to say ‘bout that.
By The Other Jack
November 25, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
Mara
I don’t have any compassion for Vick. He is an idiot for allowing the dog fighting. Can you imagine finally making millions a year. What will you do with your money: Well, i was thinking about dog fighting. LOL!! You can take the hillbilly out of the woods but you can’t take the woods out of the hillbilly.
I have a bigger problem with pro athletes getting away with what they do to the women in their lives. It all starts in college where they get arrested and still start the next Saturday. I’m a Tennessee fan and I have hated Phil Fulmer because of how he has allowed thugs to be thugs as long as they can play football. (And the fact that he has destroyed one of the best programs in the country) In fact the “Fulmer Award” is about the most violent a player is, the more likely he is to receive the award.
Thank God, his fat butt is gone as of the end of the season.
By Monica
November 25, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
The same cat woke me one night when my oldest was having a slight asthma attack. She heard him before I did and stood on my chest meowing until I woke up.
RF, our dog is awesome! He is very protective of our boys and sleeps with both of them. We can hear him in the middle of the night, going back and forth from one bed to the other one. We use our dog as a weather alert; our area was hard hit last year by tornadoes in February and in May, and our dog woke us up. We don’t run for shelter unless the dog is whimpering. :)
Jokeson, I meant to comment on this yesterday. On Friday afternoon you stated, “In the comparison between the selfish wall street trader and the crack addict, I find a significant difference: one is acting consciously and the other is purely trying to cope until death’s release.”
So, which is which? Can you clarify? Thanks! LOL
By RF
November 25, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
Archie and Mara- as opposed as I am to the current structure of the bailout package (Hank is sooooo not the one who should be pulling the strings), the more I read here the more I realize that it may be worth considering. As long as there is a pretty certain return on the investment and some real, long-term restructuring of the businesses involved, it may help. I’m not convinced, mind you, but definitely pondering and waiting for more information.
The second is a management system that greatly encourages advancement based on the bottom line. Managers cut quality controls to produce more, making their bottom line look great, so they are quickly advanced. Of course the cars suffer
‘zackly my point (OMG liberals and conservatives can even agree here- what is the world coming to?? LOL) The whole business philosopy here needs a serious adjustment.
I just wish all dog abusers would get the attention Vick has. His celebrity status has certainly gotten him the attention. I don’t think, however, that every jurisdiction takes dogfighting as seriously and doesn’t pursue the guilty with as much fervor.
By Gandalf, the White!
November 25, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
I love cats! DEAD ONES! They kill songbirds and are useless.
By Gandalf, the White!
November 25, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Let’s fix the business world like this! “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs!” Barry Obama
By Gale
November 25, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Should Michael Vick be offered a slot in football again, my respect for the players would go up substantially if they would simply refuse to play with him. A man who tosses a pet to an animal to watch it torn apart should not be on the field with decent people.
Gandalf, My dad had that opinion about cats and routinely shot them from his kitchen window because “They kill more baby rabbits than a hunter kills in any season.” By the end of the summer the neighbors were all complaining about the hoards of rabbits devouring their gardens. I’m just saying.
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
Mara -
just my opinion, but as horrible as domestic abuse is (and it is horrifying) the women have a voice, they have rights, and they have access to remedy. They can press charges, sue the h-ll out of their abuser, tell the tabloids, and publicize the assault.
gotta say, Mara, I’m really surprised that you wrote this - you read the news, so you know some of the top headlines around the country jsut the last couple of days: a woman in MD was attacked and her new boyfriend killed by her ex-boyfriend who had been threatening her for years. she did everything right, including going to courts and getting a restraining order - he still broke in and attacked them both. an ex-boyfriend recently shot his ex-girlfriend in a church. a couple of months ago here in the UK, a guy killed both of his kids to get back at his ex-wife.
ex-husbands have pushed their ex-wives’ cars onto railroad tracks in front of oncoming trains. burned their wives with acid. beaten them to death.
and these are “normal-size” guys - these aren’t guys with thousands/millions of dollars to throw around (to hire a killer lawyer at the least - hire a killer at the worst), these aren’t guys who are hopped up on steroids.
if I was some size-0 wife, the last thing I’d be thinking is “oh, I’ll go to the media” - the first thing I’d be thinking is “if I stay, he’ll kill me. if I leave, he’ll hunt me down”
it’s not an exaggeration. you see it in the news every. single. day.
By Gale
November 25, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
I am still amazed, given we do see domestic disagreement escalate to murder on a daily basis, that the authorities do not take this treat more seriously. If a guy hits his wife or GF once, the odds are pretty strong he will do it again. There should be mandatory pysch evaluation at the very least. It is like the DUIs that get their license revoked. The restraining order means nothing.
By k
November 25, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
Two days ago in Newnan, an angry boyfriend killed his estranged girlfriend’s 14 year old boy at his uncle’s house, and then himself. She was in the process of getting a restraining order against him. Guess he showed HER. Every now and then women kill, too. Men do it every day. That’s what love’ll get ya.
No one hates what Michael Vick did to those dogs more than I do. (LUV my pit mix! Best.Dog.Ever!) I’m afraid that Chris Rock’s [true] words will continue to haunt us as a society, though: “White woman kills a moose, she gets to run for vice president! Black man kills a dog…..” Of course it was horrible and wrong! Of course I want that to never happen again! I’m just saying that those who feel he’s being treated unfairly have an argument that cultural norms are dictated by the majority in power, and are not necessarily tied to what’s right, wrong, or just.
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Gale -
If a guy hits his wife or GF once, the odds are pretty strong he will do it again. There should be mandatory pysch evaluation at the very least. It is like the DUIs that get their license revoked. The restraining order means nothing.
I agree with you - the good thing is that (if memory serves) GA law allows the state to prosecute the abuser - the victim doesn’t have to press charges (quite often, they’re too afraid to press charges, so taking that option away from them is a good thing)
mandatory counseling is a start - mandatory jail time, as well -
too often, the problem is that the guy issues a threat but the police say “until he actually does something, there’s nothing we can do” - and, unfortunately, unless you get the threat on tape, any legal action would just be he said/she said.
By USinUK
November 25, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
k -
words will continue to haunt us as a society, though: “White woman kills a moose, she gets to run for vice president! Black man kills a dog … (snip) … I’m just saying that those who feel he’s being treated unfairly have an argument that cultural norms are dictated by the majority in power, and are not necessarily tied to what’s right, wrong, or just.
omfg. what a load of bollocks!!!
while I don’t agree with hunting from a helicopter for sport, what Palin does is hunt moose FOR DINNER.
nor does she pit moose against moose for them to fight to the death.
nor does she keep the moose in deplorable conditions.
Vick and his ilk breed these dogs for one thing and one thing only: blood sport. they keep them in crates all day, letting them go only to put them on a treadmill for exercise - they teach them to fight, then get them in a ring with another dog who has led a miserable existence and let them fight until one of them is dead - usually, the other one is so greivously injured, it has to be put down, as well.
“cultural norms” my fuzzy white butt. one is a case of hunting for a family meal - the other is a case of animal cruelty for sport.
jeebus christmas on an effing pogo stick.
By Gale
November 25, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
k, hunters kill animals every hunting season. They do not sell tickets and loose other animals to kill moose, or deer or turkeys or whatever. The objective is a clean kill and meat in the freezer. Chris Rock is just perpetuating the black victem stereotype. Vick is not a victem. People who engage in dog fighting or c** fighting or whatever are violent people expressing a barbaric tendency. Cultural norm? Not among the black folks I know. With c** fighting, at least it is an animal civilized people do not think of as a pet. Sorry, I find dog fighting to be barbaric.
By k
November 25, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
USinUK, omg, what a load of bollocks yourself!!!!
I wasn’t saying that the two were the same thing! I was saying that there is an argument there, based on people’s perceptions about killing animals. Plenty of people, as mentioned above, have no problem shooting kitty cats because they’re annoying. They don’t think it wrong, but you might.
It’s called OBJECTIVITY: looking at all sides of an argument before howling that one’s own opinion is the only valid one. Geez. Try it sometime.
And Palin was not EATING wolves she shot from the helicopter either, so bite me. She’s a b—-h.
By k
November 25, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
USinUK, omg, what a load of bollocks yourself!!!!
I wasn’t saying that the two were the same thing! I was saying that there is an argument there, based on people’s perceptions about killing animals. Plenty of people, as mentioned above, have no problem shooting kitty cats because they’re annoying. They don’t think it wrong, but you might.
It’s called OBJECTIVITY: looking at all sides of an argument before howling that one’s own opinion is the only valid one. Geez. Try it sometime.
And Palin was not EATING wolves she shot from the helicopter either, so bite me. She’s a b—-h.
By k
November 25, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Gale, I agree with you that dog fighting is barbaric, IMO. I never said otherwise. My comment was to the differing PERCEPTIONS of the rightness/wrongness of killing animals, and the differing PERCEPTIONS of the differing standards that apply to subcultures within our society. So sorry I tried to interject the depth of perspective into the conversation! If you’ll excuse me, I’m going to take my PIT BULL, whom I LOVE, outside to pee.
By Comedian
November 25, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Chris Rock is also a comedian, not a serious social satirist.
By Gale
November 25, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
hmm, perceptions. I agree shooting wolves, whether for bounty or not is not the same as hunting for meat. I agree shooting cats because you don’t like cats is wrong. He was my dad and I told him it was wrong. But even in these examples, we are talking about clean kills. Not sportsmanlike behavior, I will grant that. But neither example show the purposeful desire for violence that dog or rooster fighting shows. (darned censor). Once again, dog fighting is not a cultural norm among people I know black, white, yellow or red, for lack of space to write all the ethnicities.
By Gale
November 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Sometimes it is difficult to see the difference between social satire and comedy. I contend that he is perpetuating the image of black man as victem. He made the comparison of Palin and Vick.
k, anyone who loves a pit bull knows the breed is capable of more than fighting. I know I’ve seen them on the TV channel that hilights different breeds. I still wouldn’t want them. But they seem to be good dog. Rottweilers are another breed that has apparently gotten a bad rep, but actually makes a good pet. Once again, they would not be my choice.
By Mara
November 25, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
USinUK - gotta say, Mara, I’m really surprised that you wrote this
I do not under-estimate the prevalence of domestic abuse, even to the point of murder. All I was saying is, in my own opinion…the abuse of an animal or a small child is more cowardly and more contemptable than the abuse of a grown women.
It is, and was not, my intention to minimize the pain of getting the sh-t kicked out of you by your boyfriend. Been there, done that. But I had the option of leaving…as many other women do, and as Vick’s victims did not.
I was just sayin’….
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this
K -
It’s called OBJECTIVITY: looking at all sides of an argument before howling that one’s own opinion is the only valid one. Geez. Try it sometime.
here’s the thing - not all arguments or opinions are created equal, thus they don’t deserve the same weight. if an argument is so head-up-one’s-a$$ stupid, then it deserves to be shot down.
for instance: arguments that ignore data or evidence. by your definition, we should objectively consider arguments that deny the holocaust or arguments that the earth is flat or is only 10,000 years old. sorry, but there is too much evidence that contradicts those opinions for them to carry the same weight as the opposing arguments.
in this situation, it’s a false equivalence. what Chris Rock (and you) stated was shooting moose was the equivalent of dog fighting. it’s not. the former activity involves 1) an animal in its natural habitat and 2) killing it to feed your family. the latter involves raising an animal in inhumane conditions so that it will fight another animal raised in the same situation simply for sport.
it’s a bogus argument on its face - so, sorry, but it deserves to have someone call bollocks on it.
it’s called critical thinking. “geez. try it sometime.”
And Palin was not EATING wolves she shot from the helicopter either, so bite me. She’s a b—-
if Chris Rock’s (and your) argument was to compare shooting wolves from helicopters for sport with dogfighting, then you would have had a point. but that wasn’t his argument - or yours.
what you did, instead, was 1) compare hunting for food with killing for sport, and 2) said we should consider “cultural norms” when discussing animal abuse such as dog fighting. I’m just saying that those who feel he’s being treated unfairly have an argument that cultural norms are dictated by the majority in power, and are not necessarily tied to what’s right, wrong, or just
objectivity is a good thing when the arguments have equal weight, but when it’s a false equivalence, then one should employ a little critical thinking to “sort the wheat from the chaff”, as it were.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this
Mara -
I do not under-estimate the prevalence of domestic abuse, even to the point of murder. All I was saying is, in my own opinion…the abuse of an animal or a small child is more cowardly and more contemptable than the abuse of a grown women.
I guess I lump them all together - beating up on anyone weaker than you is cowardly, whether the person is an adult woman or a child. But, I misunderstood your post - thought you were diminshing domestic abuse.
By RF
November 26, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
If there is evidence of abuse against a woman or child, the person responsible should be locked up until court processes start. Restraining orders are all but worthless if the abuser wants to get to the victim. The recent NJ case clearly proves that.
Happy Thanksgiving to one and all. We’re off to set up tables for the family feast and I’ll soon be up to my armpits in cake flour and all sorts of yummy stuff!! Enjoy and take a minute to appreciate the friends and family you have, and the simple joy of being alive and well fed. In spite of all that goes on in this crazy world, we are still lucky people if we have a roof over our heads and enough food to eat. Enjoy your holiday!!
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
USinUK
while I don’t agree with hunting from a helicopter for sport, what Palin does is hunt moose FOR DINNER. nor does she pit moose against moose for them to fight to the death.
I’m so proud of you, snif snif, sob sob.
Standing up for Sarah Palin. It’s so hard to type while I am weeping.
But of course, she doesn’t hunt moose from helicopters. It is illegal to hunt anything from helicopters. Where this got started was when she first got picked and some environmental group started crying that her government was hunting wolves from helicopters. But it was the EPA who was culling wolf packs that were depleting the Moose and Caribou herds.
Wolf packs also grow very fast when near human settlements because they become scavengers and of course this is dangerous forr the humans.
But it’s good to see a little non partisanship here.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this
Speaking of hunting and cultural norms, I got to looking around the office and realized that I don’t know if any of the black guys hunt. I probably should add that about half of the black guys I work with are African or island immigrants, so their cultural norms are likely different. I don’t think the women do hunt at all. The hunters I know are all white guys, mostly the older guys, though not all of them. The black guys often golf, but some of the white guys do both or neither. So, will the black guys on the board educate me, please? Is hunting a white “cultural norm”? Is hunting something black folks just don’t do? Is hunting something black folks consider low class or barbaric? The white girl wants to know.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
RF, we have “Megan’s law” for sex offenders. It seems we need a law for spouse abusers. We seem to go over the top with sex offenders. But the law does help. We need to go a bit over the top with spouse abuse. Yes, she said/he said issues will arise. But most murders are tracked back to the spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend. Unfortunately, when some snap, they take innocents with their intended victim.
By Answer
November 26, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Look up Association of African American Sportsmen. better yet, search in google on “african-american hunters”, don’t use “Black” since you will get Black Friday Bargain Hunters, Black Hills Hunters, etc, well, you get the idea.
By Answer
November 26, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Until recently, it may have been very difficult for a black man in the south to even buy a hunting rifle.
Let me go ask some black folk.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
I imagine the pickins are going to be mighty slim in W2W tomorrow, so I’ll say my happy turkey days to my fellow irregulars today!! make sure you have some extra dressing for me!!! no pumpkin pie, though - I’m an apple pie girl, myself.
seriously, happy thanksgiving to you and yours - hope you all have a nice, quiet, peaceful day with those you love.
:-)
TOJ -
hey bud! this isn’t a case of non-partisanship - this is a case of critical thinking. I love a good debate and hate false equivalencies. (I love Chris Rock, though - the guy is brilliant)
as for hunting - criminey, my brother in law is out at his deer camp as we speak - if I hated hunters, I’d end up hating one of the people I love the most.
as for hunting wolves from helicopters, this was actually started by Governor Hickel to improve big-dollar tourism in the 1990s. The state project was called “Fewer Wolves, Better Hunting” - while no one disagreed at the time - or disagrees now - that an overpopulation of wolves = an underpopulation of moose/caribou, the objection was that it wasn’t being done humanely - it was being done for sport.
that was the objection when Hickel was governor, it was the objection with Palin.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Interesting. Thanks Answer for directing me. Apparently blacks and Hispanics are more likely to fish than hunt. The study I read did not question why. It was just reporting findings. I think I would need to dig a lot more to find comparisons to whites. The study also did not differentiate, what should I call it, Americanization? Among the study group were blacks and Hispanics that may have been Americans one generation or many. I think that would make a big difference. Other countries may have less focus on hunting and fishing as a sport. My dad, I know, was not raised to hunt as a sport, but to put food on the table.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I have bigger fish to fry. I just pulled the cover off my Z and I have a flat. It’s a new car.
Yeah Happy Freakin’ Turkey day.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Answer, I wondered if the difficulty for a black man buying a hunting rifle might have had an impact in reducing the participation in hunting as a sport. Given how my dad needed to hunt as a kid for food, I hope rural blacks weren’t denied that tool of survival as much as I fear it was the case.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Answer
*Until recently, it may have been very difficult for a black man in the south to even buy a hunting rifle. *
So how would that work? The guy at the counter says, No. we’re closed. Yeah. I can see that happening.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
I just pulled the cover off my Z and I have a flat. It’s a new car. Yeah Happy Freakin’ Turkey day.
you know what? this new years eve, at 10 minutes to midnight, I want you to pour yourself a bad mamajama glass of scotch. I’m talking a bigun. and make it a glass of good, OLD single-malt. splurge on the expensive stuff. I want you to toast out 2008 and look forward to 2009. You’ve had a run of crap this last few months - soon you can close the book on this whole year and have 365 brand new days to look forward to. I promise 2009 will be better. (you can quote me)
:-)
By Gale
November 26, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
TOJ, sure, today we cannot imagine it. 60 years ago when my dad was a young man, I can imagine a black man in the south being very worried about trying to buy a hunting rifle in the south. I can hope it wasn’t so all I want, but 1948? The South was still pretty segregated if I remember right.
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
EXPAT: I deplore dog fighting…but this Moose fighting thing sort of intrigues me! Two Moose going Rack to Rack! WOW that would be great!
By Gale
November 26, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Gandalf, you can see moose fighting every mating season. You just have to be patient and wait, and stay out of the way. Fortunately, most animals are smarter than humans and don’t insist of fighting to the death.
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Pit Bulls SUCK!They should all be destroy, humanely, but destroyed none the less. They are vile and useless. Anyone who owns one is an idiot, and if they respond on this blog, to me posting, well, they aren’t only an idiot, but a {DUM BASS] as well!
K once again has show this board what a (DUM BASS!) she is! Arguing with EXPAT? Only us conservatives get into it with EXPAT! DUMB DUMB DUMB…oh well, I hope all of you have a wonderful Thanksgiving, I hope your cats get a song bird, your pit bulls get a nieghbor kid and ya’ll get some pumpkin pie!
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
USinUK
It hasn’t been a good year. I just put the car cover back on and came back inside.
On a lighter note, I saw where Pep Boys has a TomTom for 70 bucks. Now that’s a deal.
I have used a hand held version for several years that has hiking trails and roads. I had also bought the marine software for the sailing deal that we did last year. It was very cool coming back home and downloading our path. You could see every tack we took.
But that old guy has died. I think the screen just went bad. I want a new one, but not the dashboard type and the handheld versions are a little more expensive. I love stuff like that.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
GtG -
into a little moose-on-moose action, are you??? you ought to rent/buy the Planet Earth series … I think there’s plenty in there to blow your skirt up!
TOJ -
But that old guy has died. I think the screen just went bad. I want a new one, but not the dashboard type and the handheld versions are a little more expensive. I love stuff like that.
you and Mr. USinUK - you have loads in common, he’s Gadget Guy, too. we had a Garmon (do they sell that make in the US?) - it was good, as satnavs go - sadly, though, it went walkabout one night when we left our car unlocked.
me, I’m a late-adapter - only got an iPod last year - and, now, I wonder how I ever lived without it!
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
Gale
1948? I remember asking my Mom why those people were all setting in the back of the bus. I remember the whites only water fountain at H.P. Kings Department store in Bristol. And I remember the kind old elevator operator at H.P. Kings who would always help my Mom with her packages. I think that was probably about 1960.
When I started school, they were segregated. (1957) We lived on Fifth Street which was a nice neighborhood, but Fourth Street ran along beside the railroad tracks and there was no sewer so all those folks had outdoor toilets. There were a lot of Black people lived on Fourth Street and of course, I was friends with several of the black kids.
I remember when the schools were about to be integrated, my aunt asking ” How would you like it if one of them sat behind you in class? That made no sense. On that day I had an argument with Emmit, one of the Black kids and I remember feeling really guilty about having that argument. There was no calling racial names, we were all too close and Emmit was a pretty big kid that had no problem wading into a fight. But a few days before Emmit had stood up for me against this big kid named Stanley Bowers. Stanley was the neighborhood bully, but he sure backed down when Emmit was there.
Emmit graduated with me and went to medical school. I saw him several years latter at a class reunion. He had become a GP and had an office a few miles out of Washington DC.
There’s a line in Stand By Me at the end where the narrator says that you will never make any closer friends thane the friends you make when you are 12 years old.
By Answer
November 26, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
So how would that work? The guy at the counter says, No. we’re closed. Yeah. I can see that happening
exactly!
Very Good, TOJ.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
TOJ, I just picked 60 years because my dad would have been a teen who just moved to Ohio for work. He was the oldest boy of 11. I wonder sometimes if he felt guilty about leaving. I never thought to ask.
Anyway, I had very little contact with blacks as a child. There was one family in our elementary school and they lived about four blocks away from us. I don;t know if the schools had been segregated when and where I went to school. I suspect there were so few blacks, it was integrate or don’t go to school. I don’t think I was even aware of large numbers of blacks until the riots of the late 60s. It just wans’t anything I thought about.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
USinIK
Yes. Garmons are good. They also have great commercials.
If you want to get him a great Christmas present, look into a hand held GPS. There are several around. The handhelds are great for hiiking and the software has lots of fun stuff. He can still use it in the car, but he can grab it when he gets out and it still works. Mine was completely waterproof and would actually float, worked off two AAs. When I walked, jogged or rode my bike, I would wear a hooded sweatshirt and I would put the GPS in the open hood so it would have a clear view of the sky. When I got back, it would download the speed, the distance, the elevation change, all that worthless stuff that gadget guys love.
I have an Ipod 30 gig. I synced it with one of my MACS. It got the 30 because I could put my work on it. Within a year, because I didn’t up grade to the latest version of OS, it stopped playing videos and within two years, it wouldn’t do anything.
As a last resort, I synced it to one of the PCs and it was as if Jesus had fixed it. It was completely great and started playing videos again. MACs are great in so many ways, but it is like Amway for the MAC company. It keeps paying them for years because they are always requiring you to update the very expensive software.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
Gale
We were kids when all the problems happened and my hometown was pretty wealthy. When they closed the Black school, they offered free tutoring for any Black kids to get them up to speed because the white schools were very good and of course the Black schools were horribly underfunded and way behind. Every single Black kid went to the tutoring classes. They hated it, but their parents made them do it. It only lasted for a year or two and by then, they were up to speed.
My graduating class was about 10% Black and other than a few, they were always extremely competitive academically.
That area now lost most of it’s minorities and is mostly old people. Young people leave small towns. I did.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
that’s it - you and Mr. USinUK are NEVER meeting - you’d talk us into bankruptcy!! ;-)
it’s funny you should say that about the hand-held sat-nav - that’s exactly what I was going to get him for c-mas, but then he saw an ottoman that he really wanted. it was about £70 chepaer and it was what he asked for - talk about your win-win!!
he treated himself on his birthday to a 50” plasma and a blu-ray, so not getting any more gadgets in the house for a couple of months isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
yesterday, his birthday present finally arrived - I pre-ordered him the super-deluxe edition of The Sopranos - he was like a kid in a candy store.
as for me, now I have iPod envy!! thanks a lot!! :-P
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
Enjoy your technology now, when Barry is done with us, we will be living in the middle ages, like the other 57 states…..
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Happy Holidays to all the W2W regular posters: USinUK, TOJ, Gale, Mara, Sunshine, JokesOn, k, Frustrated, Monica, Archie, and Gandalf. Special shout out to etBanker, who I think made the most astute comment this week:
no, don’t bail them out because bankruptcy doesn’t mean out of business or even loss of jobs. Just look at the airline industry. And can anyone state that cars are more important than airlines in this day and age? The airline industry also supports millions of adjuct jobs too, but declaring bankruptcy didn’t result in doom and destruction. We’re setting a scary precedent on all these darn bail outs.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
hey you!! happy thanksgiving to you, too!! :-)
as for he comment bankruptcy doesn’t mean out of business or even loss of jobs - it may not mean a loss of jobs for the folks at GM and Ford, (which I think is naive, but I’m willing to play along) but if their suppliers aren’t paid - or are paid pennies on the dollar - for what they are owed - then, yes, we are going to add thousands of folks to the more than 4 million people currently out of work.
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
you ought to rent/buy the Planet Earth series … I think there’s plenty in there to blow your skirt up!
US- I LOOOOOOOOVED that series.. I recorded it on my TIVO and I am still waiting for my husband to make a copy of it. It was WONDERFUL!!!!
Gandalf- If you haven’t seen it, you HAVE to…it makes you want to pack your bags and travel the world..
Enjoy your technology now, when Barry is done with us, we will be living in the middle ages, like the other 57 states…..
I think I just spit on my monitor when I read this.. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Happy early Turkey Day everyone!!! I am looking forward to the post feast napping. :)
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
First of all, purchasing medical care isn’t like purchasing a pair of sneakers - you can’t really “bargain shop” for an x-ray/MRI/sonagram. Not to mention, would you want to visit the “cheapest” X-Ray? (helllloooooo radiation!)
Actually, USinUK, it is possible to negotiate the costs for your health care, including x-rays and MRIs, especially if you are willing to go during non-peak hours. As for the relationship between the quality of health care and the fees charged, it’s not as simple as you might believe. IME, the best doctors are usually the most honest ones as well, resulting in a smaller bill for the patient. Ditto for honest car mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc.
One of the downsides of ANY third-party payor system, whether government-administered or through private insurance, is the lack of incentive for either the doctor or the patient to keep the costs down. The situation Monica mentioned above is a prime example of unrealistic health care pricing ($1300 for an MD to put tubes in her son’s ears).
2) have a home health visitor for the first year after I give birth - they’ll keep an eye on the health of my child, answer any questions I have, etc
Awesome—Another Baby Bruno on the way. ; > }
By k
November 26, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Wow, some people really do like to toot their own moral superiority horn, dont they? Let me break this down s-l-o-w-l-y one more time for the ones who can’t get over themselves:
I never said hunting and dog fighting were the same thing. I never equated them in terms of right/wrong. (That would presume I am uniquely qualified to judge everyone else’s opinions, and that job is taken by others here.) I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PERCEPTION OF INEQUALITY THAT COMES FROM PROSECUTING ONE AND LAUDING THE OTHER, when both result in dead animals. You know, PERCEPTIONS that people still have in this country of inequality, favoritism, and double standards. There are people in PETA who think I’m a b—-h for eating steak (and yes, veal.) Perceptions differ. I was attempting to discuss THAT subtle nuance, but clearly that’s a discussion over the “I’M SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU” heads of some of the board’s regular morality police.
FOR THE RECORD, one more time: I LOVE dogs, oppose dog-fighting, am horrified by the blood lust, and don’t think it’s the same thing as hunting. But I ALSO see how some people (it must be the “norm” for some people since it still goes on) MIGHT PERCEIVE IT DIFFERENTLY. I don’t think it’s possible to effectively address a problem until we understand it, but so sorry to talk over your heads! Lesson learned: no objective discussions on W2W.
USinUK, try not to CHOKE on your bangers, mash and nasty-a— tasteless fried fish and warm beer while WE indulge in the sumptious pleasures of Southern cooking tomorrow: butter, gravy, fresh vegetables, and flaky pie crusts. The pleasure will be all ours.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
Frustrated -
happy thanksgiving!!! (gobblegobble)
US- I LOOOOOOOOVED that series.. I recorded it on my TIVO and I am still waiting for my husband to make a copy of it. It was WONDERFUL!!!!
the series was amazing - every once in a while, a nature series comes along that makes you say “DAMN!!! I wish I was a cameraman and could film stuff like that!!”
and, yes, you’re right - it absolutely makes you want to punch your time card, pick up your passport and backpack and see the world. (or at least get the blazing heck out of your cubicle!)
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Further evidence of the decline in education in GA: The Chick-fil-A cows. They really need to work on their spelling.
By Positive
November 26, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
The Chick-fil-A cows. They really need to work on their spelling.
but they never got to go to school at all. they are doing pretty good under the circumstances.
Think Positive, young man, Think Positive.
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
the sumptious pleasures of Southern cooking tomorrow: butter, gravy, fresh vegetables, and flaky pie crusts. The pleasure will be all ours.
Happy T-Day, k.
I had a “pre-Thanksgiving” dinner last night that was delicious: ham, mashed potatoes, lima beans, green bean casserole, cranberry jello salad, rolls, and a homemade pumpkin pie. Then we had dessert. (wink, wink) ; > }
By Gale
November 26, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
I just had one of the most enjoyable lunchtime conversations I’ve ever had. I decided to ask several of my not-born-in-America coworkers if they were having a feast tomorrow and if so, what were they having. What fun. The Indian is planning to make their own main course to take along to friends where they expect the vegetarian foods to be few, then enjoy all the non-meat goodies. The Chinese is joining her son and though chicken was on the menu. But she was unsure about what else would be avialable becasue she doesn’t get the holiday other than the Pilgrim thing. A native from Antigua told me she was joining friends, but otherwise would do nothing special, except that she has adopted pumpkin pie and made it her own. Then, the Columbian told me that his country has no such holiday. He thought it was all about the Pilgrims and nothing else.
I am speculating that most agrarian societies with relatively short growing seasons will develop a Harvest Festival. The Indian confessed that they have something of the sort in January in Indian. There is something similar with special foods, but not a feast in China. Antigua seems to do something like a harvest festival. Apparently it has evolved to be a community charitable thing, but she wasn’t sure if it had different historical roots. It makes sense to me that Columbia with it’s year long growing season has no such holiday. It likewise make sense that the columbia would not associate the holiday with the harvest.
I just found it all very interesting and since it is Thanksgiving, I decided to share.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
I’ll take your word on it re: negotiating fees for x-rays and mris - I’ve never heard of it, but if you say they do it, I won’t argue with you.
as for the lack of incentive for either the doctor or the patient to keep the costs down - there’s HUGE incentives in insurance and in single-payer systems - it’s called profit for insurance (they’ll keep doctors fees down so that your premium will more than cover you - it will also cover the folks who require more service than their actuaries estimated). as for single-payer systems, they have to live within/near a budget, as well.
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
Think Positive, young man, Think Positive.
LOL.
Though the Chik-fil-A cow commercials likely outlived their freshness long ago, I do think some of them are cute. The one where a cow does a belly-flop into a pool so that she can douse out the fire in the grill is a classic.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this
but they never got to go to school at all. they are doing pretty good under the circumstances.
amd they have no opposable thumbs !
By Gale
November 26, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
k, regarding your 12:53, I was trying to understand if Chris Rock’s perception of hunting would have caused him to make that comparison. I came to the conclusion that hunting is not prevalent in the black and hispanic groups and therefore, yes, he might make that comparison. In that sense, a black audience might agree with him, while a white audience would react as I did, thinking he was saying how black men are mistreated. I found the discussion, and what I learned from the articles I looked at, enlightening.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
k -
USinUK, try not to CHOKE on your bangers, mash and nasty-a— tasteless fried fish and warm beer while WE indulge in the sumptious pleasures of Southern cooking tomorrow: butter, gravy, fresh vegetables, and flaky pie crusts. The pleasure will be all ours.
ooooooooooooo … snap. you sure did show me.
I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PERCEPTION OF INEQUALITY THAT COMES FROM PROSECUTING ONE AND LAUDING THE OTHER, when both result in dead animals
yes. killing one for food. one for sport. you can speak as slowly as you like, it’s still a bullsh!t comparison. and just because someone might “perceives” an injustice doesn’t mean there actually IS one. even if that person is Chris Rock.
and I don’t think I’m better than you or anyone else on the board. I just think your argument … well … it needs a little work.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
USinUk
Bruno is right. You can negotiate some very big cuts in a medical bill. My friend had a bunch of back surgeries and she needed some services that she thought her insurance would cover. When they didn’t, they thought she would be stuck with a bill close to two grand. She explained the situation to the desk person and they gave her a discount which amounted to over half the bill. BIG discount. Which makes you wonder why they charged that much to start with.
it’s all just a big scam. Right after my divorce, I had to go to the emergency room and i had no insurance. They treated me and i got a bill from a collection agency before I got a bill from the hospital. I called the hospital raising mortal hell considering the collection agency had already reported me, giving me bad credit. It was only a couple of hundred bucks. When I threatened to sue the hospital, they dropped the charges and when I checked my credit, it had been removed.
I wonder how many people have lost their good credit over crap like that.
By The Other Jack
November 26, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Gale
Good work with da ferieners. Teach em about ahmerica and how much we eat.
Seriously, that was a good thing.
Bruno
Is the cow still hanging from the smokestack just South of Turner Field. That was a funny ad. A cow had been trying to hang up a sign and it had fallen, but was hanging by a safety rope.
That is a funny campaign.
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
USinUK—For the record, I think that you were rude to k with your bollocks comment. You could have politely disagreed with her reasoning without insulting her.
I guess that’s what happens when two Geminis go head-to-head. ; > }
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
it’s all just a big scam.
The biggest question to me regarding government-run health care is one of fairness. As an infrequent consumer of medical care, is it right for me to be forced to subsidize the frequent consumers??
By Gale
November 26, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
TOJ, I don’t know if it was a good thing, but it was sure interesting to me. I would have liked to check with my favourite Ghanan, but he got laid off last week. I almost asked my Indian coworker about hunting in India before I realized that would not be a good thing to ask of someone from a country where most people are vegetarian.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
when two Geminis go head-to-head
actually, if it’s 2 geminis, it would be head-to-head-to-head-to-head
;-)
I think that you were rude to k with your bollocks comment. You could have politely disagreed with her reasoning without insulting her.
I said nothing to k that I haven’t said to TOJ - I call bollocks if I hear it. Like I said to TOJ, I love-love-LOVE a good debate (it’s why I hang here) - but, I can not stand an argument that’s based on either bad/no data or one that’s based on a false comparison.
Like I told k earlier today - had she/Chris Rock made the comparison to hunting wolves from a helicopter (in other words, killing for sport not for food), that would have been a more accurate parallel - one where you actually could step back and say “yeah, I see your point - a sport (using the term loosely) for rich guys vs one for the poor”
By Monica
November 26, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
The biggest question to me regarding government-run health care is one of fairness. As an infrequent consumer of medical care, is it right for me to be forced to subsidize the frequent consumers??
Bruno, that’s why I can’t quite endorse a national health care plan. I like the choices that one is afforded. However, the rising costs of medicine are an issue. TOJ raised a good point - if a hospital/ dr office can offer huge discounts, why do they charge so much in the first place?
Happy Thanksgiving all!
PS Chris Rock is awesome!
By Sunshine
November 26, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
Hello All!
Happy happy Turkey day! I am sorry I have had noooooo time to post, things are just crazy busy here at work! Thanks for the shout-out Bruno! I hope you all get stuffed with stuffing and all the trimmings, you too USinUK, you have got to at least go buy a turkey breast or something, tis the season! I wonder what type of Martial Arts the baby boy will be practicing inside me after his first taste of Green Bean Casserole, Turkey and Cranberry Sauce? Have a good one all, as they say, eat your hearts out ;-)
By Sunshine
November 26, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
As an infrequent consumer of medical care, is it right for me to be forced to subsidize the frequent consumers??—Just food for thought Bruno :-) (can you tell I am hungry?) If you don’t own a car/ use commuter trains/ are a city dweller and walk to work, is it fair that you are “forced” to pay the same amount of taxes as a heavy road/highway commuter? What about (as has been brought up here before) if you are single and never have kids or home school those kids, should you have to pay the same taxes as someone with 6 kids in public schools? What if you never get a dime of Social Security should you still have to pay in?
By k
November 26, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
Thanks Gale, for your interesting contributions to the discussion! I’ve been slammed here before for discussing the different filters through which people see the world, but I think they are indeed relevant if we’re going to understand each other. We all see the world through the filters of our experience, and our experiences differ. People are interesting.
I brought up Chris Rock’s comment because if he said it, surely someone else was thinking it. Comedians become popular when their words resonate. George Carlin and Richard Pryor had us ROFL by saying what others were thinking, but didn’t say out loud. I don’t agree with everything CR says (and thought his Hillary bashing was over the top), but much of it does ring true, IMO, at least to somebody, hence his millions of fans.
USinUK, you didn’t say my argument needed work. You went into spasms about Jesus on a pogo stick, told me I was full of it, and ranted and raved as if I were the enemy of kindness and animals everywhere. Maybe it’s YOUR argument that needs work? (BTW, I rescued both a dog and a cat that are alive and well in my home instead of dead in a gas chamber. Did you?) Once again, I don’t think CR spoke only for himself when he pointed out the PERCEIVED injustice of prosecuting one and lauding the other. If he said it, someone else THINKS IT TOO, hence the discussion.
Question: What’s the difference between an injustice and a perceived injustice TO THE PERCEIVER?
Bruno: Where she lives, it may not be considered RUDE to shriek “BULLOCKS!” at another person’s opinion before one even takes the time to digest what that person is trying to say. Filters…. {;->
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
In the “I told you so” category, I saw yesterday that new estimates for the total cost of all the proposed bailouts and economic stimulus packages is now topping 7 trillion dollars. I knew Paulson and Co. were lying when they first floated the $700 billion figure.
The problem I see with all this madness is that the bailout money isn’t coming from collected taxes—they are simply printing the money, which will lead to a drastic reduction in the value of the dollar along with massive inflation.
It appears that the inmates are now running the asylum.
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
For the record, I think that you were rude to k with your bollocks comment. You could have politely disagreed with her reasoning without insulting her.
Bruno, dear….since when has anyone “politely” disagreed on here?
K- I may not spit this out the way I need too, but I kind of agree with US, your argument doesn’t have legs to stand on. When you are talking about two different things, as you said yourself (killing out of cruelty and killing for food, etc), how can people possibly think that the “killers” should be treated equally under the “norm”.
I take your argument as saying either Palin should be put on trial or Vick should get a pat on the back… I don’t see that at all…
Number 1, what Vick did was ILLEGAL……Hunting is LEGAL….So no, as long as that is in play, they will never be “percieved” as something that should be treated as the same…dead animal or not
Number 2, if your argument is saying that all acts that end in dead animals should be looked at as the same….well, then 90% of us will be in court for trying to avoid, yet not succeeding, the rodent that didn’t make it across the road…
Maybe I missed something though….my brain is in “Friday” mode…..hehe
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
actually, if it’s 2 geminis, it would be head-to-head-to-head-to-head
Good one, USinUK. ; > } Can you find it in your heart to apologize to k?
If you don’t own a car/ use commuter trains/ are a city dweller and walk to work, is it fair that you are “forced” to pay the same amount of taxes as a heavy road/highway commuter? What about (as has been brought up here before) if you are single and never have kids or home school those kids, should you have to pay the same taxes as someone with 6 kids in public schools? What if you never get a dime of Social Security should you still have to pay in?
Good questions, Sunshine. I have paid school taxes in three different counties for many years in spite of having no children. Right now, my budget can’t absorb any more expenses, so I hope Obama’s forced-insurance plan allows an option to opt out.
By Bruno
November 26, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
Bruno, dear….since when has anyone “politely” disagreed on here?
Good point, Frustrated!
Bruno: Where she lives, it may not be considered RUDE to shriek “BULLOCKS!” at another person’s opinion before one even takes the time to digest what that person is trying to say. Filters…. {;->
Sorry to stick my nose where it’s not invited, but I hate to see two of my favorite lady posters fighting and insulting one another.
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Question: What’s the difference between an injustice and a perceived injustice TO THE PERCEIVER?
Hmmmmm….I would have to say the difference would be the empathy of the perceiver.
If they cannot relate or have any kind of thought, opinion, etc, towards the matter, then they could care less.. either way.
By Sunshine
November 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Bruno, you didn’t answer the question :-P I think that we all pay for some services we don’t always need, but if you try to “opt out” of every service you don’t think you use proportionately to others, we have a slippery slope. I think most people would gladly pay a flat yearly/weekly percentage for universal health care, no you might not use every service you pay for, but your child/grandchild/spouse might. I had a favorite teacher who had a great response when ever anyone said “THAT’S NOT FAIR!”, he would poke his head up and ask with great amusement “Who said we were running a fair?”
By Answer
November 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Gale -
I asked at lunch an elderly(over 60) black man from the very rural South how a black man would have a hunting rifle 60-80 years ago.
He laughed with “If a black man had a hunting rifle back then, it was because a white man trusted him and gave it to him”. I then asked if he could have walked into a store and bought one. I cannot print his reply here, but the answer was essentially “No”.
By k
November 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Bruno, my grandfather, when he was alive, had very strong words for people who complained of paying school taxes though they had no children. (Not saying you’re complaining, just thought Papa was funny.) He said, “You should be paying ALL the school taxes! We’re the ones who are producing the future of America. We’re the ones birthing them, raising and feeding them, buying school shoes, getting their teeth fixed, and making sure they become educated, productive citizens. What are YOU doing for the future of America? How are YOU paying back what you’ve gained by the grace of being born here?” Papa didn’t say much, but when he let loose, he sure did! haha!
Frustrated, I forgive you in your Friday mode for thinking I said something I did not actually say, and for failing to digest the upteen different times I stated that I was talking about “perceptions” that were not necessarily mine. I never said, “all acts that end in dead animals should be looked at as the same.” Someone ELSE attributed that sentiment to me, but whatever. Have a great holiday! (flaky pie crusts filled with sweet fruit and pumpkin and pecan goo, covered in whipped cream, all flagrantly touching each other on the dessert plate, begging you to come back for one more bite….)
By k
November 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Bruno, my grandfather, when he was alive, had very strong words for people who complained of paying school taxes though they had no children. (Not saying you’re complaining, just thought Papa was funny.) He said, “You should be paying ALL the school taxes! We’re the ones who are producing the future of America. We’re the ones birthing them, raising and feeding them, buying school shoes, getting their teeth fixed, and making sure they become educated, productive citizens. What are YOU doing for the future of America? How are YOU paying back what you’ve gained by the grace of being born here?” Papa didn’t say much, but when he let loose, he sure did! haha!
Frustrated, I forgive you in your Friday mode for thinking I said something I did not actually say, and for failing to digest the upteen different times I stated that I was talking about “perceptions” that were not necessarily mine. I never said, “all acts that end in dead animals should be looked at as the same.” Someone ELSE attributed that sentiment to me, but whatever. Have a great holiday! (flaky pie crusts filled with sweet fruit and pumpkin and pecan goo, covered in whipped cream, all flagrantly touching each other on the dessert plate, begging you to come back for one more bite….)
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
negotiating your bill after the fact is one thing - (btw - I’ve had a similar experience with a collection company because the doctor billed an old insurance policy) - I’ve just never heard of a pre-treatment negotiating.
although, I’m sure it happens - just never to me (touch wood, I’ve never really needed it)
Bruno -
as for subsidizing people who are more frequent users, that’s how insurance works currently - essentially, you bet that you will get sick, the actuaries measure your likelihood that you won’t - the excess goes towards the folks for whom they got it wrong.
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Do you think parent’s of kids in private school should pay?
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
k -
considering I picked apart your argument in my very first post, I would have thought it was pretty apparent that your argument needs work (while I don’t agree with hunting from a helicopter for sport, what Palin does is hunt moose FOR DINNER. nor does she pit moose against moose for them to fight to the death … Vick and his ilk breed these dogs for one thing and one thing only: blood sport.)
before one even takes the time to digest what that person is trying to say
I read what you said. I disagreed with your argument. And, unless you want to modify your argument that you would prefer to compare helicopter hunting for sport with dog fighting, I still stand by my original statement.
and, regardless of what you may think - I don’t think YOU are bollocks - just the argument. nor have I made this disagreement personal (unlike a certain someone who wished that I would choke on my bangers and mash).
By Sunshine
November 26, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Frustrated—Do you think parent’s of kids in private school should pay?—Yes.
Like you said about the legal/illegal thing. You have to pay the taxes that are levied against you. If you don’t like it, vote in someone else or run for office yourself (not meaning to be harsh but must school taxes are decided on a very local level) If you have a smorgasbord and taxpayers get to pick and choose which taxes they/you/we pay and don’t pay how would we run as a society? It is the price of living in America, with its roads, and police departments, and public schools. It’s not that bad a place really!
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
I still think there is some of the perception issue in the Vick/Palin comparison. Yes, CR picked something a bit on the outrageous side to poke fun at. What Vick did really is illegal. I agree that if he had pointed to the wolves instead of the moose, I would have some sympathy with the comment. I likely would not have made the conclusion that he was pointing out the oppression of the black man. But all in all, he said it to be funny. Palin is unpopular and the loser, so she is fair game.
On the subject of filters, I think this is why American often make bad foreign policy decisions. We have this expectation that another culture will respond to something the same way Americans do. We are often very wrong.
I have been on the minority side of a few discussions and held unpopular beliefs and yep, ya’ll have laid into me for them. If we all stay civilized in our discussions and avoid name-calling, we will all return happily for another go around with a new topic the next week.
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
k -
and, since you asked, the big, fat orange tabby and the mighty sock hunter I mentioned above were both from the Humane Society on Howell Mill Road (as were all the dogs we had when I was little)
By USinUK
November 26, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
… and with that, a happy thanksgiving to all - and to all a good night!!
have a wonderful day tomorrow - loads of love and food and family or friends -
we all have so much to be thankful for
hugs to all
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
K-
Happy Holiday to you too!
P.S. I’ll take the pecan goo please :)
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
EXPAT: K is just a silly run of the mill {dum BASS!}… she got the bollacks she deserved. As for me, I think we should hunt pit bulls from a chopper, and wolves with a F-16! That cannon would make mince meat out of them!
Wolves, Pit Bulls and Bears will eat or kill people, so they suck. It’s easy to figure. Eat Song Birds in my front yard, not good. Eat Bunnies, not so bad. So folks the morale is don’t let your cats, pit bulls, bears or wolves get within range of my varmit rifle, not good.
By k
November 26, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Actually, USinUK, I cautioned you NOT to choke. Not suprising you’d take the words “try not to choke” to mean “wish you would choke.” Filters…. You expressed earlier that you miss Thanksgiving, and you know, when one cries while eating, one might choke during one of those big, between-sob gulps of air. Especially when forcing unpalatable grub into one’s gullet. Hope you’ll be okay. The world certainly needs people hopping around jeebus christmas effing pogo sticks telling everyone else how stupid they are. Cheers!
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Sunshine-
I agree with you totally on the taxes…
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Answer, well, that was pretty much what we thought, huh? I am so glad times change. History gives me more Hope than Obama’s promises of hope.
By Frustrated
November 26, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
I forgive you in your Friday mode for thinking I said something I did not actually say, and for failing to digest the upteen different times I stated that I was talking about “perceptions” that were not necessarily mine.
And I’ll ignore the sarcasm in that and just take the “I forgive” part :)
By k
November 26, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
On the subject of filters, I think this is why American often make bad foreign policy decisions. We have this expectation that another culture will respond to something the same way Americans do. We are often very wrong.
WELL SAID, and so true! Often true within our borders as well.
Hey, one more question: What’s so funny ‘bout PEACE, LOVE, and UNDERSTANDING?
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
K STFU!
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
BTW, Gandalf, you are exempt from the name-calling request.
Also, if anyone is thinking of a pet for Christmas, I read that the shelters are full of pets forclosed home owners have had to give up. It may be much easier to find a small pet this year. I adopt cats, but I have not had much luck with dogs. Often the dogs are the large breeds that people don’t realize would get that big.
By Gandalf, the White!
November 26, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Gale thanks for reminding me! Every one out there in Obamastan, Hope for a meal this Thanksgiving, but don’t do anything. Then go see Hosea’s crowd for a freebee. This will be Change! Barry will provide! YEAH! FROM EACH ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITIES, TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEEDS! That is so profoud! YEAH BARRY!
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
k, love the imagry. all flagrantly touching each other on the dessert plate, begging you to come back for one more bite….)
By k
November 26, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Gandalf the ever adorable: I promise to keep my pit bull (mix) away from you, your property, and your guns! (The cat does go out during the day, though, and he assumes the risks of his wanderlust.) My dog lives inside and protects me and the offspring from those who’d do us harm. This arrangement also protects my neighbors from my dog, should the dog misunderstand their intentions. Thanks for caring!
(Juicy slices of dark meat on top of the healthy slices of white meat, buried in gravy, surrounded by big piles of stuffing, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, green bean casserole, a tablespoon of cranberries, an aunt’s weird sort of congealed salad, the vegetarian cousin’s shrimp & orzo concoction, cornbread, and if we’re lucky…. COLLARD GREENS!)
By Answer
November 26, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
We have this expectation that another culture will respond to something the same way Americans do. We are often very wrong.
Recent case in point? Dropping Meals consisting of peanut butter into Afghanistan. Had never thought about it, but it does indeed look like something you would find in a baby’s diaper. Apparently they were not too keen on peanut butter.
Gale - I just had to check, as I had made that remark about checking, before TOJ let us know all a black man had to do was walk into a store and hear “sorry, we’re closed right now”.
I actually just now today heard a story of a whole black family basically disappearing. And not because they headed to Chicago.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Hey, one more question: What’s so funny ‘bout PEACE, LOVE, and UNDERSTANDING?
Is this serious? Forgive me, I am a literal person and I think I am missing something.
By k
November 26, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
Gale, it’s a song. I was watching Elvis Costello and Stephen Colbert sing it on his Christmas special last night, and it’s stuck in my head.
By Gale
November 26, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
Answer, I actually just now today heard a story of a whole black family basically disappearing. And not because they headed to Chicago. When was this?
By Gale
November 26, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
Thanks, k. I don’t have a good memory for lyrics. Speaking of Christmas specials, Charlie Brown is in the player waiting his turn.
Everyone have a wonderful holiday.
By The Other Jack
November 27, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Happy Thanksgiving
God Bless America
By Bruno
November 27, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
If you have a smorgasbord and taxpayers get to pick and choose which taxes they/you/we pay and don’t pay how would we run as a society? It is the price of living in America, with its roads, and police departments, and public schools.
I think that we all pay for some services we don’t always need, but if you try to “opt out” of every service you don’t think you use proportionately to others, we have a slippery slope.
Sunshine—Roads, police departments, and public schools are entities which ALL citizens benefit from, whether directly or indirectly, and all are necessary for a well-functioning society. Very, very few private citizens could afford to build their own roads should the government get out of the road-building business. Ditto for schools or private police forces. As such, collectivism makes sense for these items.
Health care is a different matter, however. The amount and type of health care each person chooses for themselves is strictly a private decision, and should remain that way, IMO. For many, if not most people, having a catastrophic health care insurance policy DOES make sense, but still should remain a private matter. As far as routine medical care, the least expensive way to administer it is a pay-as-you-go system in which free-market forces keep prices low through competition. Adding an additional layer of administrative costs via third-party reimbursement does nothing but drive the costs up.
Somehow you believe that mandating health care coverage would PREVENT a “slippery slope”, but I see it the opposite way: NOT allowing individual choice for your health care would likely create an even more slippery slope in which the government would have its nose in the most private areas of our lives. And why stop with health care?? We all need to eat, so why not start making food production a government-run affair, by which you simply go to the supermarket and pick out what you want to eat and let the “rich” pay for it all??
as for subsidizing people who are more frequent users, that’s how insurance works currently - essentially, you bet that you will get sick, the actuaries measure your likelihood that you won’t - the excess goes towards the folks for whom they got it wrong.
As someone who has studied actuarial science, I have to disagree with your characterization of insurance, USinUK. The essence of insurance is risk management, which is the opposite of gambling. When you purchase insurance, you aren’t hoping that you will use the policy, (or at least shouldn’t be). You are simply joining a pool of people who all pitch in a certain amount of money to be used in the case of a catastrophic loss. No one knows in advance which member of the pool will suffer said catastrophic loss, although statistics can be used to measure the likelihood and hence determine the premiums.
Insurance is only rightly used to provide protection against catastrophic losses which occur infrequently. Once you start including known, fixed costs such as routine doctors visits, you have left the realm of insurance altogether.
By USinUK
November 27, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Brunooooooooooooo -
hey sweetie!!! happy turkey day to you (gobblegobble)
The essence of insurance is risk management, which is the opposite of gambling.
on the part of the insurance company, you are exactly right - which is why I said that actuaries measure the likelihood of you geting sick/needing services and charge you accordingly (it’s why insurance premiums are so expensive for wimmen of child-bearing age).
When you purchase insurance, you aren’t hoping that you will use the policy, (or at least shouldn’t be).
exactly my point - you aren’t -hoping- that you’ll need it, but you’re betting that you probably will (if not, why bother?) … do you see what I mean? if you don’t think there’s a possibility that you’ll need it, you wouldn’t get it - so, therefore, you are betting that you might need it.
You are simply joining a pool of people who all pitch in a certain amount of money to be used in the case of a catastrophic loss. No one knows in advance which member of the pool will suffer said catastrophic loss, although statistics can be used to measure the likelihood and hence determine the premiums.
which was what I was saying regarding the excess from your premiums (the money you don’t use) goes to cover the member(s) of the pool that wind up using more than they statistically should have needed.
:-) hope you’re having a great day!!!
By Sunshine
November 28, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Guess, I am the only one on the planet working today! ha! Oh well! Turkey day was great, I have a family full of cooks and BOY OH BOY was the eaten’ good yesterday!
Bruno, I have to respectfully disagree with you on insurance as a whole. Roads, police departments, and public schools (AND BASIC HEALTH CARE) are entities which ALL citizens benefit from, whether directly or indirectly, and all are necessary for a well-functioning society. Very, very few private citizens could afford to build their own roads should the government get out of the road-building business.—We all already pay for “poor people’s” health care services in the form of County/City Health Departments and in the County run hospitals and for mentally unstable criminals. WE pay for it everyday in our taxes. Pay for it in our insurance premiums when people come to the Hospitals for critical care b/c they have had no preventative care. There is not a question if a citizen will age and need more health services at some point, it is only a matter of when, and unfortunately (as the insurance companies have already figured out and have therefor charged the “ovary tax”) woman of childbearing age need frequent preventative health services to help PREVENT more costly problems down the road. These are not IF’s. It is not only catastrophic things. What about family planning services? Chronic diseases? Birth defects and/or genetic disorders? Is it really ‘buck up, every man for himself’ extreme survival of the fittest?
By USinUK
November 28, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
Guess, I am the only one on the planet working today! ha! Oh well! Turkey day was great, I have a family full of cooks and BOY OH BOY was the eaten’ good yesterday!
FEAR NOT!!! you are not alone in the working world!!
although, I gotta say, it has been sooooooo nice yesterday and today, to be able to get through the day without a million e-mails (only 10% of them important) from our NY office!!
Am so glad you had a good turkey day!! I made the mistake of waiting too long after dinner to call my fam - everyone was in an L-Tryptophan-and-football coma … ;-)