AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > October > 03 > Entry
Is the U.N. becoming irrelevant?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
During a week that featured the financial markets collapsing like a house of cards, it was easy to overlook the opening of the United Nations’ General Assembly last month. Truthfully, most Americans will only remember the event as Sarah Palin’s world-leader scavenger hunt.
Palin’s lack of foreign policy experience is understandable, if alarming. There was a hint of truth in a recent Saturday Night Live skit that had her comically “disheartened” to learn how many foreigners were at the U.N., promising to “get those jobs back in American hands.”
McCain-Palin and Co. are indeed leading the charge on a foreign policy that is American-centric to a fault. Their proposed “League of Democracies” would be an alliance of like-minded countries with the potential to render the struggling U.N. obsolete, offering a cloak of legitimacy to any military actions we deem necessary.
Yet diluting the power of the United Nations isn’t what most of us want. An international poll from Worldpublicopinon.org shows that 85 percent of all Americans believe that the U.N. should have the right to authorize military force in the case of human rights violations. We value an organization whose nearly 200 members span a vast geographical and ideological range, working together to aid displaced refugees and conduct peacekeeping missions in some of the most treacherous spots on the globe. In addition, a post-9/11 United Nations employed sanctions to halt nuclear proliferation and helped with locating the finances of terrorist organizations. Can a more narrowly defined organization accomplish these same goals? Hard to imagine.
There’s no excuse for the United Nations’ bungling mismanagement and appalling incidences of corruption. Yet we need to fix this troubled organization from the inside, not in spite of its non-democratic members, but because of the opportunities such inclusiveness offers.
Sen. Obama recently noted that “the way we are perceived in the world is going to make a difference in terms of our capacity to get cooperation and root out terrorism.” Putting all our financial and strategic resources into a coalition of “yes-men” countries will not put our country first. By reforming the United Nations— a complex conglomeration of friends, enemies and ever-changing alliances — we will truly make our country safer and stronger.
Rebuttal
The U.N. isn’t becoming irrelevant — it has already made itself irrelevant. While some divisions involve humanitarian work, its main reason for existence - to be a venue for multi-national diplomacy — has become so biased and broken that “fixing it from the inside” no longer seems possible.
Andy didn’t mention the significance of the new U.N. General Assembly president: none other than Nicaraguan Miguel D’Escoto Brockmann. Viscerally anti-American, he was foreign minister under Sandanista dictator Daniel Ortega. In 2004, D’Escoto referred to the United States as “the greatest enemy of the right of self-determination of peoples,” and Americans as “the most ignorant people around the world.”
Hmm. The fact that an ideologue with a deep, public hatred of America could rise to a position that is supposed to be neutral and diplomatic shows just how broken the U.N. is. As the Heritage Foundation’s Brett Schaefer wryly put it in an interview, “It is not in the U.N.’s best interest for D’Escoto to be the face of the General Assembly.”
Each year, we give $5 billion dollars to the U.N. budget — a budget D’Escoto now essentially controls. The United States shells out more money than any other country and yet, according to the State Department, 95 percent of countries who receive aid from us voted against us most of the time. The way we are perceived in the world is indeed crucial — but the U.N. is helping ensure that perception is one of enmity. For all our aid, we are also being thanked with an investigation by the U.N.’s Human Rights Council into “racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance” in America.
To say the United Nations is bungling and appalling does not do it justice. To spend time and money to investigate a country in which an African American may be the next president, while ignoring catastrophic human rights issues in Tibet and Darfur shows just how bizarre and senseless the U.N. has become. Or consider the appointment of Richard Falk as human rights investigator — a professor who has compared Israel to Nazi Germany.
It is the U.N. that has become the “yes-man” organization for corrupt and biased regimes. The world needs a credible multi-national diplomatic organization, and it is tragic that the U.N. has ensured that it can no longer play that role.
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Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Gale
October 3, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
About time! WTF was going on yesterday? The webmaster was out sick again? Or was the board given time out for not sticking the the W2W chosen topic? As for this topic, the UN is not irrelevent. It just needs a new direction. Obviously the many states will not agree on a common governance or ideology. IMO, they could do much more if they focus on human rights and human quality of life.
By CommunistAJC
October 3, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
The question should be: Has the UN EVER been relevant.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
It was my fault Gale! I said it was Friday so JOKESON wouldn’t post and that crashed it! Sorry!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
UN? useless since Korean Conflict, just like that nuclear bomb droppin’ Truman. The UN Should be moved out of NYC to get rid of all the spies that use that building as thier den. Reopen the UN in Wasilla, see how much more gets done.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
The UN is kinda like going to a church were everyone hates you. When the money plate comes around you fill it up and as it goes down the row, people take that money out and it never gets to help the poor and downtrodden. Every sermon is about how much you suck. No one at this church talks to you, unless they want something. If you dare refuse the chastise you publically.
It sorta like that….
By Drew
October 3, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
UN? Irrelevant? We wouldn’t send 5 billion dollars a year to something irrelevant, would we? Would we?
After all, they do so much, like… ummm… well…
By Gale
October 3, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
“Reopen the UN in Wasilla”
There’s a thought! I think that is the best thing I’ve read from you , Gandalf!
If memory serves, which it frequently does not, the UN was another feel-good-after-a-war gesture, like building a monument. Does it serve any real purpose? No.
By The Other Jack
October 3, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
The UN occupies some of the most prime real estate in the world.
I’m thinking really nice condos. The assembly hall could be made into an open area with a couple of pools, saunas, stick some Yankee palm tress (plastic palm trees) in there, maybe a nice cabana bar.
We build the new UN in Mandan, North Dakota. Probably an all steel building with plenty of parking. When the council is out of session, we could use the building for county fairs and auctions. Don’t worry, we will give all the members their own locker and none of their offices will be used to keep live stock. Well, at least not big live stock. Maybe a goat or two, but that smell is really not that bad.
The Sioux Native Americans are in pretty bad shape. This would help them. They could open their own casinos. They could give diplomats a nice dinner buffet for $10.99, plus tip. And Mandan is a much smaller town. Fewer limo miles. There are a couple of motels there. I stayed in the TeePee motel back in ‘76 and it was real nice. It got down to -62 one of the nights we were there. That kind of weather keeps people in-doors and out of trouble.
And that 5 billion? We are not going to be able to do that anymore. But they will have that big nice all steel building in Mandan. We will try to get that land out by the Tractor Supply so if they get thirsty during the summer sessions, they can walk across the parking lot and get a bottle of pop out of the machine out by the loading dock.
They should be sure to have change. We don’t want them bothering the nice folks at the Tractor Supply.
By Hockey Mom
October 3, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
The UN will be relevant the day he makes the cut on American Idol or Dancing with the Stars. This election stuff is boring, and getting in the way of good TV shows. I hope it’s over soon. The only votes that matter are the votes you phone or text to the FOX TV network.
By Bob
October 3, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
@Gale: Reopen the UN in Tehran
By Saying the news
October 3, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
We, the government, should forclose on the building as they have not paid the mortgage in years. Throw everyone out and sell the property to Trump and lets build something that works. The UN is just a money pit where we are looked upon as lackies and taken advantage of all of the time. Throw the bums out and lets get a backbone and for every vote against us by another country lets cut 20 million dollars in foreign aid. See how long they continue to vote against us. By the way those of you that donate to UNICEF and the UN food programs….all that money and food goes to the indivual countries military or dictator to sell on the black market. Just thought you would want to know.
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
When I leave this office, the rest of the house is a potpourri of different smells and none of them good.
I had to reply to this … I’m sorry, I’m not laughing at you, but that is the funniest thing I’ve read all week. (and it was a week where I needed some funny). Something you might want to investigate about your cat (in addition to random dead critters) … years ago, I had a kitten that needed to be educated on the difference between a flower pot and a litter box. It’s an unpleasant thought, but something else you might want to investigate in regards to your P.U. Potpourri.
as for the U.N. … meh. I got nuttin.
By JustaJew
October 3, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
Bah! The UN is useless and gives a forum for whack jobs like Ahmadinejad to spew their hate-filled rhetoric. Disband the whole damn thing. Direct diplomacy has always worked best anyway.
By Gale
October 3, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
There are far better NGOs that serve people in developing countries. What good is a blue helmet soldier that is not allowed to shoot? Wars in the developing countries are about power only because resources are limited and the strong want control of limited resources. The UN does nothing for the root cause of the problems.
By JustaJew
October 3, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
Since we’re pretty much all in agreement about the UN, anyone wanna weigh-in on the VP debate?
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
I was always a fan a “Gun Boat Diplomacy”. How did Teddy put it? “Speak softly and command a huge armada of Battle Ships!” or something to that effect. Peace through Superior Firepower! “When in doubt, C-4!”
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Biden came off as mean spirited to me, Palin did a good job of showing what an liar Biden really is.
By The Other Jack
October 3, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The cat goes outside. I have addressed that issue already with vertical twigs in the planters. He’s a good cat, already a mouser.
It has cooled off and the smells have gone away. But Tuesday was pretty bad.
The UN?
Who cares.
By Gale
October 3, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
I’ve been trying to read the VP debate transcript. I could not face listening to Palin’s voice for that long so I did not watch. The transcript is painful in the lengths the candidates went to to avoid direct answers. I know, they always do that. It did not seem as soft on Palin as I expected. But it was tedious in that Biden was restrained from what would have been an easy takedown. If Palin was faced with a real debate on the national stage, and experienced senator like Biden would have torn her limb from limb and left a quivering mass on the stage.
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
GtG -
How did Teddy put it?
yep. you not only got the quote wrong, you got the gist of it wrong, as well. “walk softly and carry a big stick” means DIPLOMACY first, then only fight if you have to.
Palin did a good job of showing what an liar Biden really is.
you obviously haven’t checked the debate fact-checker … neither of them were pure, but Palin was pretty egregious.
Biden came off as mean spirited to me
wow. color me shocked.
By Hockey Mom
October 3, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
I thought Palin was terrific last night! She really showed her stuff. All they needed to do was get her away from those snarling liberal media reporters and their Gotcha! questions like “What have you read?” That’s ridiculous. No one can remember what they read. Who has time to read anyway? Her outfit was awesome, her hair and makeup were perfect, and lets not forget she did everything Biden did last night, but she did it in four inch heels! The Democrats are so over. Americans know whats important and what’s not.
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
FRIDAY SNACKS!!!
In honor of my Mr. USinUK’s birthday which was earlier this week, I made Dorset Apple Cake!! everyone help yourself …
By Joe Blow
October 3, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
Have any of these things ever been relevent? UN, NATO, what ever. None of them do the things they were designed to do. NATO will not protect itself. The UN is completely held up by Russia and China who don’t care how many people a dictator kills as long as they can sell them arms or exploit their resources. The US we be smart to dump it’s funding for all of these worthless organizations.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
EXPAT you got it wrong silly! Teddy’s diplomacy involved bringing a Battleship into port and then negotiating, from a position of strength. Biden isn’t a liar? you are so silly! He is a cretin. Color you silly! Stay on your side of the pond and make nicey nice cakes and such. The Limey’s have a word for it…TWIT! yes that’s it, you silly Twit! Have a good weekend in that socialist wonderland you call home.
By JustaJew
October 3, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
I thought Joe did o.k. in the debate, I’m not thrilled with some of his answers but he at least answered the questions specifically. Did Palin actually answer ANY of the questions? She spoke in HUGE generalities the whole night and on some questions she didn’t really even bother to answer. Listening to her was like going to a car dealership and asking the salesman “I’m looking to buy a Ford Mustang, can you answer some questions about it for me?” and the car salesman answers me by saying “Sure! Let me tell you about this brand new Chevy Impala!”
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
He’s a good cat, already a mouser.
evidently so, by the body count! glad things are getting better … now that it’s cooling off (and probably getting less buggy), you can open the windows :-)
hope you’re doing okay - you’ve been in my thoughts this week :::hugs::: I love fighting with you and know I can give you a hard time, but only cuz you make it so easy ;-)
(heeheehee)
By choppin
October 3, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
If you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause…you CAN’T heal the symptoms. It’s like the old saying goes…the definition of insanity is doing something the same way but expecting a different result. That $5 BILLION a year belongs to the American people and was earned by each and every taxpayer. STOP THE MADNESS. What is it going to take in today’s world for our government to bone up, take care of the people of this country first and stop throwing our hard earned money into bonfires of irresponsible and immoral inaction. If the survival of your loved ones depended on your ability alone to properly manage our yearly $5 BILLION investment, would you continue to make that investment year after year knowing the U.N. return on investment track record? It wouldn’t even be your choice moving forward because your loved ones would not survive and you would be fired for lack of performance. If you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause…you CAN’T heal the symptoms. Why is this so difficult to understand? One reason is because it is easier to spend and waste another person’s money than it is your own. Especially when you don’t see the actual hard cash moving from one hand to the other. Fishman for President!!
By JeremiahWright
October 3, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
BECOMING irrelevant? It’s been irrelevant for decades. Completely impotent organization. It wouldn’t stand up to Iraq when Hussein refused to allow inspectors in. It barely stands by the US in Afghanistan. It stands by while people are slaughtered all over the world in places like Darfur. It does nothing with the current Russia/Georgia conflict. What positive thing has it offered this world in the last 10 years? It’s a waste of money.
By Gale
October 3, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
USinUK, after this week in the financial world, you deserve a Friday snack. I’ve sneaking an extra piece for my partner because she loves apple cake.
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
GtG -
Stay on your side of the pond and make nicey nice cakes and such
awwww … so bitter that no one makes you cakes …
and, yes, I’ll be on my side of the pond - and I’ll be voting. and I’ll make sure I think of you while I punch “Obama/Biden” on my card.
:-)
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
taking off early for the weekend …
later, taters!!
By NotFunny
October 3, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
The UN has been irrelevent for a long time and I hate the fact that some of my tax money is deverted to this sorry excuse of an organization. I refuse to put even a penny into those “Trick or Treat for UNICEF” boxes that the schools pressure the kids into carrying on Halloween. I’ll tell any kid who is old enough to understand that they are collecting money for a corrupt organization and they should tell this to their teachers. I suggest to them that they keep for themselves any money they already collected and turn in an empty box.
By USinUK
October 3, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
Gale -
USinUK, after this week in the financial world, you deserve a Friday snack. I’ve sneaking an extra piece for my partner because she loves apple cake.
have a good weekend, my friend!!
By choppin
October 3, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
If you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause…you CAN’T heal the symptoms. It’s like the old saying goes…the definition of insanity is doing something the same way but expecting a different result. That $5 BILLION a year belongs to the American people and was earned by each and every taxpayer. STOP THE MADNESS. What is it going to take in today’s world for our government to bone up, take care of the people of this country first and stop throwing our hard earned money into bonfires of irresponsible and immoral corruption and inaction? If the survival of your family and loved ones depended on your ability alone to properly manage our yearly $5 BILLION investment, would you continue to make that investment year after year knowing the U.N. return on investment track record? It wouldn’t even be your choice moving forward because your family and loved ones would not survive and you would be fired for lack of performance. It is easier to spend and waste another person’s money than it is your own. This is especially true when you don’t see the actual hard cash moving from one hand to the other. If you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause…you CAN’T heal the symptoms. Why is this so difficult to understand? It is past time for American citizens to stand up and demand that our earned money and local resources not end up in the hands of the people responsible for immoral pain and suffering around the world. Hard cash supposedly going to ease the suffering of the citizens of North Korea with no record of what it was spent on is just one example of many. Would you trust Kim Jun-il with your daughter, son, father or mother? We as citizens can no longer just assume that every dollar is getting to the people we are trying to help. We must demand accountability and if we don’t get it then we need to immediately change our course and find a better way. The human race depends on it. No one lives on an island in this world and TIME WAITS FOR NO ONE. Fishman for President!!
By choppin
October 3, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
It’s like the old saying goes…the definition of insanity is doing something the same way but expecting a different result. That $5 BILLION a year belongs to the American people and was earned by each and every taxpayer. STOP THE MADNESS. What is it going to take in today’s world for our government to bone up, take care of the people of this country first and stop throwing our hard earned money into bonfires of irresponsible and immoral corruption and inaction? If the survival of your family and loved ones depended on your ability alone to properly manage our yearly $5 BILLION investment, would you continue to make that investment year after year knowing the U.N. return on investment track record? It wouldn’t even be your choice moving forward because your family and loved ones would not survive and you would be fired for lack of performance. It is easier to spend and waste another person’s money than it is your own. This is especially true when you don’t see the actual hard cash moving from one hand to the other. If you can heal the symptoms but not affect the cause…you CAN’T heal the symptoms. Why is this so difficult to understand? It is past time for American citizens to stand up and demand that our earned money and local resources not end up in the hands of the people responsible for immoral pain and suffering around the world. Hard cash supposedly going to ease the suffering of the citizens of North Korea with no record of what it was spent on is just one example of many. Would you trust Kim Jun-il with your daughter, son, father or mother? We as citizens can no longer just assume that every dollar is getting to the people we are trying to help. We must demand accountability and if we don’t get it then we need to immediately change our course and find a better way. The human race depends on it. No one lives on an island in this world and TIME WAITS FOR NO ONE. Fishman for President!!
By The Other Jack
October 3, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Why I otta .. .
I’m doing OK. It’s better that things aren’t around me. No one has returned from Europe and I don’t know anything about anything. I think that helps. She is in my thoughts a lot. It’s the old thing that you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone.
Have a good weekend over there in the land of meat pies.
(Barbarians, get yourself a hamburger or even more American, a TACO, or PIZZA … Yea! A friggin’ PIZZA!!)
By Bruno
October 3, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Biden came off as mean spirited to me, Palin did a good job of showing what an liar Biden really is.
To be fair, Gandalf, I thought Biden did a good job of remaining polite throughout the debate, although his body language betrayed a desire to rip into Sarah Palin at several junctures, especially following her quip that the Democratic “plan” in Iraq was to basically wave the white flag and surrender. I thought Sarah held her poise very well, although I agree with JustaJew that she was long on generalities and short on specifics. Bottom line: I rate the debate a tossup.
By Bruno
October 3, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this
As for the Senate “bailout” announcement on Wednesday night, was I the only one who wanted to vomit when the Dems and Repubs came out of the meeting arm in arm, falling over themselves in complimenting one another for such a good job done? Excu-u-u-u-se me, but what were you guys doing the past few years while this crisis was mounting? Oh that’s right, you were accepting large campaign contributions from the executives who ran FreddieMac and FannieMae.
I say toss all the bums out.
By Ed
October 3, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
The UN is very much Obama, just an empty suit with a funny name. Both need to go away…far…far away.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
Bruno, I guess I just read his body language. We don’t want to wave a white flag in Iraq!
By Jack
October 3, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
JeremiahWright @ 11:29. couldn’t have said it better myself.
By Jack
October 3, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
What’s up Dog?
By Bruno
October 3, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
What’s up Dog?
Howdy, Jack. Just hanging in there these days. Hope you and your family are doing well.
By Bruno
October 3, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Well, it looks like the bailout is a done deal. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. So much for working hard and playing by the rules……
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
EXPAT: I am sure you are an accomplished baker, but Mrs. Grey is a gourmet chef, so I ain’t jealous. Good luck with that absentee ballot getting counted, I will make sure and push the GOP ticket at the polling place were I will be #1 in line. Joe Biden! Hehe, that is funny. Do the Brits like that silly twit? What an oxygen thief!
By JK
October 3, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
Well, it’s clear that as usual, most people are ignorant when it comes to what the UN actually does. The first, most obvious thing is that it has prevented a Third World War. Second, UNICEF actually helps a LOT of children (it’s disgusting that some would lecture children about how they should instead give money to the likes of Ted Haggard). Third, a LOT of global commerce depends on institutions of the UN, and Georgia’s economy in particular relies on them. Delta Air Lines would not be able to safely operate flights to other countries without the standards established by ICAO, which is part of the UN. UPS would not be able to safely ship dangerous materials without the UN’s standards on hazmat transport. CDC’s doctors and scientists rely on the global networking of the WHO to research and prevent disease. AT&T relies heavily on the standards set by the ITU to make international telephony and the Internet function. Fourth, the UN is an American invention, and one we can be proud of. It’s not perfect, no organization is (corporate, government or any other). However, it is getting better and it has proven essential to combatting global terrorism as the countries of the world band together to fight it.
For those who wish to disband the UN, I ask this: why do you hate America, children, and business?
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 3, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
YOU (DUMBASS)! NATA prevents WW III! UNICEF is a front for the new world order. US Air Force, US Naval Air Power, enough to keep the skies safe. Ever hear of Doctors without Borders? It’s getting better? It’s a cancer, need Chemos and a scalpel most rickity tick! I hate stupid. You want to know why? Cuz you can cure stupid! HEHE (DUMBASS)! If we don’t cut them out completely move them somewhere it sucks, like San Francissy, or deep in the Heart of Texas, somewhere 4 hours south east west or north of Dallas.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Have a good weekend over there in the land of meat pies
haha … Mr. USinUK’s 2nd favorite food - a good pork pie and a side of picalilly (pickled veg with a whole lotta vinegar and some hot English mustard) … his #1? a good cheeseburger and chips (meaning fries), so you guys have lots in common.
how is Baron von Mouseripper? still keeping your home safe from varmints?
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this
JK -
don’t bother presenting GtG with the facts … it just confuses him.
By RF
October 6, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this
The UN has tarnished its reputation in the wake of terror attacks since 2000 and its weak stance on nuclear arming of third world countries, especially in the wake of its pullout of inspectors in Iraq some years back. While they have done, and still do, lots of work on trade and humanitarian missions, they’ve dropped the ball in some high profile situations. To me, the fact that they sit calmly and allow the Iranians time to call Israel and the US names and give them an international platform on which to do so only furthers the notion that they are useless. Like many organizations, the UN needs to redefine its role in the world and how it functions to help maintain peace.
On to other, more interesting and nauseating topics. Has anyone seen the new ads coming out from the McCain camp? WOW is this going to get ugly or what? Investigate Palin and its “leftist manipulation”, but try to make up smears on Obama and its “truth”. What a hoot!! I sat and watched a show on Fox News last night just to see if they could show credible evidence of Obama’s alleged ties to terrorists. The best they could do in an hour show was point out that Obama lives in the same neighborhood as William Ayers, who headed up a ragtag organization in, oh, like 1970!! Ayers hosted a meet-and-greet for Obama’s first state senate campaign. Yep, a neighborhood tea is real terror planning at its best. I watched just to see if they could come up with some hard facts before I go cast my early vote, but alas they didn’t. Obama’s camp has already put together a similarly tacky report on McCain’s association with Charles Keating, a once well-known player in the S&L scandal, also almost twenty years ago. Geez, I hate election cycles for just this reason. When you can’t talk about the current issues, throw some mud and hope you can distract everyone. Will they ever learn that all this really doesn’t change the way people vote?
By Lyrazel
October 6, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
As for the bailout I recall when the money was good Americans were spending their credit like there was no bill come due. Stocks were up and stockholders, 401k owners and many were rolling in the fun of cash (but who used cash). Investments tripled—who complained that these were not solid investments but credit? Who complained so many businesses were shipping jobs out of the USA when stockholders stocks were going up? Let the poor jobless shop at WalMart. Yes, remember how flush it has been for the past many years—how so many people got into homes, how so many people used their home equity for stainless steel renovations, how so many people used their home equity to buy new cars, new boats and nobody gave a damn about the bills coming due. Over-inflated housing prices kept builders building all the fancy subdivisions—who dared suggest they were building too many homes? Blind-sighted consumers obsession was with granite countertops and 3 car garages seen as standard equipment. Bigger, better, faster More! I do not see how so many can blame corporations when it was also public spending on a free-for-all on plastic that is partly responsible for this current crisis. You can blame a mortgage lender for bundling loans but you cant blame them because Little Debbie took out a 500,000 mortgage that she knew from day one she could never afford. Why no blame consumers for the mess we are in now?
The UN has lost its relevance and direction. It occupies a choice bit of NYC real-estate that could be sold to pay its diplomats parking tickets. I saw it in its heyday—and it functioned with the leadership needed to guide all countries away from war with unified diplomacy into programs for the betterment of humanity. Like Elvis those leaders and visionaries have left the building. Problem is now—the UN programs take seconds in lieu of the salaries and perks paid to officials officiating the programs.
HockeyMom—Biden’s makeup and wingtips looked fabulous too!
By Ben
October 6, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Maybe if the American people knew the truth, that most UN humanitarian missions turn into a fair for graft, corruption, and even the enslaving of natives for the sex trade, they might not be polling at 85% in favor of more of the same. But as long as the press continues to whitewash the UN, then of course the American people will poll that way.
By The News
October 6, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Took out the air conditioner this weekend and Borus Blue is out on patrol. He shows up in the morning, demanding to be fed. He is named Borus after the Russian Blue cat in the movie Dogs and Cats.
Apple cakes. Meat pies. It’s like you are in another country.
In have grown very fond of a Zestos cheese burger, FRIES (chips are potato chips) and a small chocolate nut sundae.
But this is good food week and I will be eating lots of fish and chicken with fresh veggies. I have put on a little weight and I need to lose it. In fact, I am out the door for a good walk.
By Gale
October 6, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
Heard on the radio this morning: (paraphrase) CountryWide is looking to restructure loans in danger of default to payments of no more than 34% of the borrowers income. I listened to the broadcast because CW is my lendor and I thought, “cool. Maybe I can lower my loan interest.” I would not sign onto a loan like that ever. What happened to conventional wisdom of the mortgage not exceeding one week’s pay?
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
In have grown very fond of a Zestos cheese burger
does Atlanta have 5 Guys, yet???
He is named Borus after the Russian Blue cat in the movie Dogs and Cats
cats rule. dogs drool. one of the best lines ever. I hear the name “Boris” and I always think of Boris Badinov from Rocky and Bullwinkle (must get Moose and Squirrel!)
I have put on a little weight and I need to lose it. In fact, I am out the door for a good walk.
did you know that many of us are genetically predisposed to put on weight this time of year? for centuries, our ancestors fattened up before the winter, so it’s in our genes - or overlapping our jeans - to do what we need to do to prepare for privation. (our genes never got the memo that a Publix - or Sainsburys - is never more than 10 min away)
in other words, don’t fight it! give in to the genes! prepare for the horrible Atlanta winter when you need to throw on a jacket as temps go down to a sub-Arctic 40!! ;-)
By RF
October 6, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
Gale- they’ll get a 40 yr. mortgage with all kinds of stips and clauses and strings attached. Problem is, too many of these risky loans were written right up into the past month or so and written without looking at total debt, etc. Unfortunately, CW like many others is going to have to eat some big property value losses in order to make these ridiculous loans work, and that isn’t going to help the stock market for the short term. There are tons of ARM’s and interest-only loans out there that won’t mature for the next several years. We’re three to five years from seeing a true end to this mess if people can’t convert these loans before the ARM period or interest-only period ends. Their values won’t rise and at best MAY return to the purchase price by that time, but I doubt it. If they can keep their jobs, they just have to pray and wait for the eventual outcome. I woudn’t risk losing any more equity in my house right now if CW begged me to refinance. My rate with them is okay now, and not worth the closing costs to refi to save a few bucks a month.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
Gale -
What happened to conventional wisdom of the mortgage not exceeding one week’s pay?
I think that went the way of “starter homes in the $60-75K range”
(bless my dad, when I was living in Washington, DC, he said that I should look for a starter home - “something around $75K” … I would have cried if it wasn’t so funny … I had to tell him that he needed to put a 2 in front of that number for a 1-bed flat)
By Gale
October 6, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
5 Guys is overrated, as is WhatABurger, the In&Out Burger and definitely Johhny Rockets. The best burger happens on my grill.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Gale -
The best burger happens on my grill.
so, when are we all invited over?
and do you add stuff to your ground beef? me, I add finely chopped flat-leaf parsley, 1/2 red onion (grated), a couple of cloves garlic (minced) and a good splash of Worcestershire, then let it sit for an hour or so to come up to room temp before cooking. yumyumyum …
I think you’re right about the CW concerning mortgages - right before the property market went into freefall here, banks were offering mortgages for 7x salary … eeeeeeeeeeyikes! 7 X!!! I mean, I understand people wanting to get on the property ladder, but there’s also a funny thing called “eating” … and “not going around nekkid” … and “having enough ££ to put gas in your car” …
By Gale
October 6, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
So right about “starter homes’. It is sad that affordable homes are now in the “wreck” category for low income. What is even sadder is how few people are brought up learning to do moderate repair work around a house. My dad could do all that and built our house mostly by himself. My brother can do a lot of that work. My sister and I were not allowed in the garage because we were girls. ::end of sexist remarks:: The point is, most of us cannot buy a house that needs TLC, so we cannot afford the typical starter. IF the owner kept the house in good repair, they will want to get their investment out of it.
So what is left? Save a whole lot of money while renting. Very hard. Or live with family while saving a whole lot of money. Also very hard. And oh, it helps if you don’t also have a big student loan.
By Gale
October 6, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
USinUK, I just remembered my dad recommending that I buy the house next door to his when I was 27 and flush with my first good paying job. I opted for the new MGB instead. Youth is wasted on the young.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 6, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Gale, close, but the B.b.b.b.b.est burgers are form my weber grill!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 6, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Gale, close, but the B.b.b.b.b.est burgers are form my weber grill!
By Gale
October 6, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
Ummm, USinUK, your burgers sound good. Actually, I buy my premade with very good beef. Other than steak seasoning sprinkled on while grilling, they are simple. The big issue for me is getting them cooked exactly med-rare. We don’t eat meat much so buying a half pound of ground, trimmed steak takes too much planning. Usually, the smallest we can get is a pound and that is too much. But I think I’ll send the SO on a hunt for some good meat and take the challenge this weekend.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Gale -
What is even sadder is how few people are brought up learning to do moderate repair work around a house. My dad could do all that and built our house mostly by himself. My brother can do a lot of that work.
very true - although my dad is rubbish at moderate repair work (my brother-in-law and brother are the ones who do work around his house). I gotta say, though - the best investment any new homeowner can make is Time/Life books of basic home repair. I’ve dated a number of guys (and married one) who swear by them. I learn by watching and helping, so am good with some things - others, I’d rather not risk the outcome (like electric wiring).
So what is left? Save a whole lot of money while renting. Very hard. Or live with family while saving a whole lot of money. Also very hard. And oh, it helps if you don’t also have a big student loan.
seriously - I can’t imagine entering working life with $40K of loans on my back. good god. the only thing you really can do is either have loads of roommates or it’s back to Chez Parental Units to pay off and save.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
the B.b.b.b.b.est burgers are form my weber grill
GtG - and what kind of cheese do you prefer to top your burger?
By Gale
October 6, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
GTG, I have a feeling there are many best burgers. One day we will need to plan a giant world wide grilling contest. Imagine, grills fired up at precisely 1pm in each time zone. We will have to dispatch naval vessels to those time zones with no place to keep a grill out of the water.
By Gale
October 6, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
And then there is the other little expense to avoid while saving for a house, no children.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
Gale -
One day we will need to plan a giant world wide grilling contest. Imagine, grills fired up at precisely 1pm in each time zone
4th of July!! (and, yes, I do keep the 4th even though I live here, now) … the first W2W Burger-Off!
By The Other Jack
October 6, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Wow. That was a good walk.
They have had five guys for a couple of years. I loved them at first, but now they seem a little greasy. But I love the service. I can drive by Wendy’s on the way and note the cars in the drive through. I will drive about two miles to the Five guys, order, get my food and drive back and the cars at the back of the Wendy’s line are still waiting.
I hadn’t thought about the gene fatness. My GF would really ride me to keep in shape, and i couldn’t really blame her. It’s not like I have Brad Pitt’s face or hair so without the body, what did i have to offer? (other than my charming personality)
Gale
Now grilling is my thing. Salmon, burgers, but my favorite is pork chops. I use a home made honey sauce that adds a really nice glaze. But about 20 minutes before I put in the chops, I wrap corn on the cob in a paper towel and foil after I have smothered them in butter, sea salt and freshly ground pepper. The same technique works with cabbage. I hated cabbage until I was shown how to do this.
By The Other Jack
October 6, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Your burgers sound good. And you probably have access to the really good beef that we can’t get here. Well, we can, but it costs a fortune. There are a couple of Argentinian Steak Houses that have opened here. Lots of show, not that good.
So you celebrate the fourth over there? You do realize that is like celebrating VJ Day while living in Tokyo, don’t you?
By Gale
October 6, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
TOJ, my favourite grill is a lamb roast with rosemary speared through it. I am still learning to do veggies without burning them.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Maybe if the American people knew the truth, that most UN humanitarian missions turn into a fair for graft, corruption, and even the enslaving of natives for the sex trade, they might not be polling at 85% in favor of more of the same. But as long as the press continues to whitewash the UN, then of course the American people will poll that way.
Count me among the 15%, Ben.
CountryWide is looking to restructure loans in danger of default to payments of no more than 34% of the borrowers income. I listened to the broadcast because CW is my lendor and I thought, “cool. Maybe I can lower my loan interest.” I would not sign onto a loan like that ever. What happened to conventional wisdom of the mortgage not exceeding one week’s pay?
Gale and RF—In case you didn’t know, Bank of America bought Countrywide a few months ago. Part of the fallout of the credit crisis will be the further reduction of the number of independent lending institutions. Right now, Wachovia is on the auction block as well. Not good for the consumer.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
On the lighter side, did any of you catch the SNL “VP debate”? I was busy on Saturday night, but saw a rebroacast on Sunday morning. IMO, Tina Fey portrays Sarah Palin better than Sarah Palin portrays herself—a little spooky, but totally hilarious.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
So you celebrate the fourth over there? You do realize that is like celebrating VJ Day while living in Tokyo, don’t you?
hahaha … I know, and the mister always says of Independence Day “oh, you’ll come back”. My neighbors think it’s funny (and think that all our holidays are built around food).
It’s not like I have Brad Pitt’s face or hair so without the body, what did i have to offer? (other than my charming personality)
only BP has BP’s face - and if everyone had it, it wouldn’t be considered exceptional. I’m trying to get back into shape, myself … well, a shape that isn’t lumpy in all the wrong places, anyway … so, I’m there with ya, feeling the burn!
And you probably have access to the really good beef that we can’t get here
man, those Scots know a thing or 2 about cows. (they also know a thing or 2 about sheep, but that’s a different discussion)
which reminds me of today’s joke:
if the Rolling Stones had been a Scottish Band, what would the name of their song be??
(wait for it)
Hey McLeod, Get Offa My Ewe
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Unfortunately, CW like many others is going to have to eat some big property value losses in order to make these ridiculous loans work, and that isn’t going to help the stock market for the short term.
I recently saw an interview with Steve Wynn, the real estate mogul, regarding the current loss in value of real estate. His opinion, which mirrors that of Donald Trump and other successful real estate investors, is that the banks should simply auction off these “distressed properties” for their true market value and be done with it, rather than relying on the government to “bail them out” with tax dollars.
On the blog, I’ve seen USinUK singing the praises of the bailout. Personally, I am vehemently opposed to the creation of a “financial czar” (Paulson) who essentially answers to no one—not even our judicial system. There has to be a simpler way to “free up” the short-term credit markets without creating a new bureacracy in Washington.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 6, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
EXPAT that would be BLUE! (Bleau), but the kids prefer cheddar, freshly slicked of course.
By RF
October 6, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
Hey McLeod, Get Offa My Ewe ROFL!! Then I get a picture of Keith Richards in a kilt on the bagpipes….. OMG what a scary thought!!
Burgers marinated in a little soy sauce with a touch of garlic are so out of this world good on the grill. No labor involved if you buy the sirloin patties pre-made. Thats’ my kind of grillin’!
Bruno- I’ve watched the Tina Fey skits several times over and she is scary good at Palin. That will go down in SNL history! Even Biden was done pretty well. I loved Latifah as the moderator for the debate too.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Brunooooooooooooooooo -
I’ve seen USinUK singing the praises of the bailout. Personally, I am vehemently opposed to the creation of a “financial czar” (Paulson) who essentially answers to no one
Paulson is no more untouchable now than he was before the bailout. And the new guy who is going to head up the asset buy-out scheme has to be approved by Congress and will have to give regular reports before Congress.
I’m no more happy about the bailout than anyone else, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
There has to be a simpler way to “free up” the short-term credit markets without creating a new bureacracy in Washington
banks. aren’t. lending. each. other. money.
it’s as simple as that. they are foregoing profit by borrowing and depositing with the central banks because they don’t know other banks’ exposures to crappy securities.
unless the gov’t does a buy-back scheme, how else are these banks going to get the crappy securities off their books and free up lending??
I don’t like it, either - it offends my sense of what the marketplace should be.
but, we’re in a ststorm right now - and it’s a global ststorm, not just limited to your local neighborhood bank.
By RF
October 6, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
Bruno- the catch-22 here is that very, very few have the capital right now to even think about buying the distressed loans, even at a deep discount, with the tight credit market. The holders of these loans are going to have to restructure what loans they can and be ready to eat some big losses on a lot of them. I also think those who could buy them are waiting right now for the values to bottom out. Until that happens, nobody wants to touch most of these properties. I also don’t think Paulson is going to get the go ahead with dispensing money without some serious supervision. If anything good comes out of this stinking bailout plan, it’s that for the time being a lot of people will be paying attention to where the money goes which will provide the scrutiny Paulson needs to keeps his zany ideas in check.
By NetBanker
October 6, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
Hello?! ~tink, tink, tink~ What’s going on in there? I’ve posted 3 different comments and not a darn thing is showing up on the page even 20 minutes later.
I’m gonna try anyway to chat about the mortgage stuff. I had dinner last night with a friend in the mortgage business. What he’s telling me the banks are seeing a lot of is people simply walking away from their mortgage. Not because they can’t afford to pay, but because the LTV has gone upside down so they don’t have an incentive to pay and are choosing to walk instead. Another thing they’re seeing is people who took a ton of equity out of a house when values were skyrocketing, purchased a second home free and clear with the proceeds, and are now walking away from the first house. Legally the banks can’t go after a borrower’s other assets.
Best truly lazy burgers? Bubba Burgers Onion flavor. I swear they taste just like a Krystal.
By JK
October 6, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Well, Shaunti may be as ill-informed as Gandalf, but at least she’s semi-coherent (and doesn’t argue that world peace will be maintained by the Nebraska Trial Attorneys Association).
Even if we put aside the baseless smears of the UN’s humanitarian work (UNICEF is just a front for the child sex slave trade? Who knew?) and the ludicrous idea that we could just dump everything on the French NGO Medecins sans Frontieres (Doctors without Borders), can somebody answer my question about global commerce? The UN makes Georgia’s economy work, even if conservatives don’t want to admit it.
Delta and UPS couldn’t work without ICAO. AT&T couldn’t work without the ITU. The CDC couldn’t function (certainly not as well as it does) without the access to scientists and data through the WHO (and if God forbid we get a bio-terror attack, we’ll need all the medical knowhow we’ve got).
The UN has never been good at PR. It allows nationalistic whackjobs like John Bolton to turn it into a “New World Order” black helicopter boogeyman without ever really explaining what it is and what it does. Yes, the UN has problems—every government, corporation and non-profit organization in the world does. The key to fixing it is not to abandon it, but to work harder to reform it. The US lobbied hard to get Kofi Annan in as Secretary General, and he was able to do a lot of good reform work, particularly in human rights.
Think of it this way: if you’re dissatisfied with the US government and how inefficient it is, would you pressure your members of Congress and support reform-minded candidates, or would you declare your 1/2 acre an independent nation and starve to death?
By NetBanker
October 6, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
Hello?! ~tink, tink, tink~ What’s going on in there? I’ve posted 3 different comments and not a darn thing is showing up on the page even 20 minutes later.
I’m gonna try anyway to chat about the mortgage stuff. I had dinner last night with a friend in the mortgage business. What he’s telling me the banks are seeing a lot of is people simply walking away from their mortgage. Not because they can’t afford to pay, but because the LTV has gone upside down so they don’t have an incentive to pay and are choosing to walk instead. Another thing they’re seeing is people who took a ton of equity out of a house when values were skyrocketing, purchased a second home free and clear with the proceeds, and are now walking away from the first house. Legally the banks can’t go after a borrower’s other assets.
Best truly lazy burgers? Bubba Burgers Onion flavor. I swear they taste just like a Krystal.
By USinUK
October 6, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
RF -
I’ve watched the Tina Fey skits several times over and she is scary good at Palin. That will go down in SNL history
I can see Russia from my house!
definitely will go down in history as one of the funniest SNL lines. ever.
Burgers marinated in a little soy sauce with a touch of garlic are so out of this world good on the grill
try worcestershire sometime instead of soy - just as much saltiness, plus a little extra yumminess. (and what meat isn’t better with a little garlic!)
By Gale
October 6, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
SNL, I don’t watch the show, but the bit of Palin and her flute saying, “So we aren’t doing the talent portion?” was priceless.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
unless the gov’t does a buy-back scheme, how else are these banks going to get the crappy securities off their books and free up lending??
Bruno- the catch-22 here is that very, very few have the capital right now to even think about buying the distressed loans, even at a deep discount, with the tight credit market. The holders of these loans are going to have to restructure what loans they can and be ready to eat some big losses on a lot of them. I also think those who could buy them are waiting right now for the values to bottom out. Until that happens, nobody wants to touch most of these properties.
The bottom line is that there remains a “true market value” for the properties in foreclosure, however low that value may be. As such, we have two choices: (1) Keep pretending that these properties are worth more than they actually are and allow the government to attempt to “prop up” the artificially high proces via a bailout scheme which creates new powers for unelected officials who essentially answer to no one (2) Bite the bullet now, let the properties to be sold for whatever they fetch and allow the stockholders of the lending institutions to take a big hit.
Certainly, option #2 will result in a severe tightening of the credit market which could trigger a deep recession, but it still might be the best way to move forward without saddling our children and grandchildren with a financial burden they don’t deserve.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
Delta and UPS couldn’t work without ICAO. AT&T couldn’t work without the ITU. The CDC couldn’t function (certainly not as well as it does) without the access to scientists and data through the WHO (and if God forbid we get a bio-terror attack, we’ll need all the medical knowhow we’ve got).
Sorry, JK, you’re not going to convince me that the UN is “necessary” by citing international standards for telecommunication, flights and shipping. Those standards don’t require a bloated, inefficient, corrupt organization like the UN in order to be established. Your mention of the CDC pretty much seals the fact in my mind that you don’t know what you are talking about. The CDC sucks up somewhere around $6,000,000,000 per year of our tax dollars, and what do we have to show for it? Endless studies about domestic violence and handgun injuries, which have absolutely NOTHING to do with infectious diseases.
By Not quite
October 6, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Um… not really wanting to join the p—- fest today, and can’t speak directly on the UN, but can comment on the CDC since I do know some of those people. Most of the work they do is not only not publicized, but kept seriously under wraps for a number of reasons, not the least of which is protecting the public from what might happen at the facilities if word got out, and includes protecting the scientists themselves from all manner of agenda-driven individuals, including but not limited to PETA, who put these people on their “hit” lists. But if you develop some horrifically scary symptoms, such as bleeding from your eyeballs and puking from your navel while your pee pee turns green and falls off, feel free to let the free market forces help you work through that problem. Have a nice day, everybody.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
I swear they taste just like a Krystal.
Good to hear from you, NetB. As far as the “burger debate” today, I’ll have to put in a vote for Back Yard Burgers. They are the closest thing to a home-made burger that I’ve found. Lately, I just haven’t had a taste for burgers, however. I’ve been sticking with sushi and chicken dishes for the most part.
Hopefully you can vouch for me, NetB, that I’ve been chatting up the credit crisis here on W2W for more than a year now. I specifically remember advising you and the others here late last year to sell off any excess properties and stocks to avoid taking a big hit. I remember answering Mara’s concerns regarding our indebtedness with China by refocusing her attention to the more immediate threat of the credit bubble bursting.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
but can comment on the CDC since I do know some of those people. Most of the work they do is not only not publicized, but kept seriously under wraps for a number of reasons, not the least of which is protecting the public from what might happen at the facilities if word got out, and includes protecting the scientists themselves from all manner of agenda-driven individuals,
I’ve had many, many clients over the years who work for the CDC, including many PhD “scientists” who make $90,000 + per year. The honest ones all freely admit how much waste occurs at the CDC, and how a substantial amount of the “research” done there has nothing to do with infectious diseases. I’m not sure why you prefer Big Brother over market forces, but my experience in life leads me to have more faith in the market.
By Gale
October 6, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
I have a 6 degree connection to CDC as well and I am very happy to keep them functional and their gates tightly sealed.
By Not quite
October 6, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
You’re entitled to your opinion, but I think your characterizations are grossly slanted. First, $90K is not a humonguous annual salary, especially in the private sector. “PhD scientists” actually finished several levels of school, and while many people today buy into the GOP’s “we don’t need no education” mentality, the argument could be made that education, at least in some fields, is indeed worth the cost. Second, employees of any large, private corporation can tell you how much waste occurs in their expenditures that has nothing to do with what the company actually produces. Ask the guy who approves the expense accounts and executive bonus packages — on the condition of anonymity, of course. Third, my idea of Big Brother is government entities that have been granted the right to spy on our personal conversations and records that previously required court-issued warrants to access, and those who’ve successfully sought for years to circumvent constitutional protections like habeus corpus in the interest of “protecting our freedom.” At least that’s the correlation I make from reading Orwell’s book. If you can make the stretch that centralizing information and efforts to eradicate diseases that could potentially affect all of mankind is a BAD thing, then what possible value would there be to disussing it with you? None that I can see. Good luck relying on the generosity of private firms when you’re so diseased no one wants to come near you.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
$90K is not a humonguous annual salary, especially in the private sector.
Sorry, but I think 90K IS a lot of money. But then again, I live in Lilburn….
Second, employees of any large, private corporation can tell you how much waste occurs in their expenditures that has nothing to do with what the company actually produces.
I agree, but at least I’m not FORCED to do business with companies which I think are wasteful.
Hopefully you remember that I am 100% opposed to the Patriot Act and am in full support of our Constitutional rights prohibiting “unreasonable search and seizure”. I was using the term “Big Brother” in a more general way than perhaps Orwell suggested in his book.
If you can make the stretch that centralizing information and efforts to eradicate diseases that could potentially affect all of mankind is a BAD thing, then what possible value would there be to disussing it with you? None that I can see. Good luck relying on the generosity of private firms when you’re so diseased no one wants to come near you.
I would be in full support of the CDC if they would stick to their original mission of protecting the public from infectious diseases. In case you haven’t noticed, they now feel they are the protectors of the public health from all manner of calamities, including injuries from handguns.
As far as what value a conversation with me would create, I’m guessing none, since you’ve made clear your disdain for me many times.
P.S. I’m not planning on relying on anyone’s generosity when I can’t work anymore. That’s what handguns are for.
By RF
October 6, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Net- Hey!! Where ya been? Bubba Onionburgers are soooo good, but they’re sometimes too pricey for my budget! Love ‘em though! I too have heard of people just walking away from big mortgages that they know will be tough to renegotiate. What’s sad is that they can do that without any damage other than a hit on their credit score. And if the property is in one partner or spouse’s name, the other still has the power to buy and take out credit. Walking away without explanation or serious scrutiny ought to be illegal!
(2) Bite the bullet now, let the properties to be sold for whatever they fetch and allow the stockholders of the lending institutions to take a big hit
I think either way we’re in a recession that is going to deepen just because of consumer fear. Even with the government buyouts, which I don’t think will make a serious dent in the total number, there will still be a lot of foreclosures trickling in over the next several years. If, and I say if, the government bank loans will get credit flowing and keep businesses running so we don’t have too many more job losses, we’ll see consumers trying harder to hang onto homes which could slow the decline. Unfortunately, I don’t know when we’ll see the bottom of property values hit, and I know there are a lot of people, me included, who worry about where that fall will end. If the buyouts will bring a stop to that, then let’s go for it so buyers and investors will return to the market and buy up what’s out there vacant. We’ve got to stop that decline and restore confidence in the real estate market somehow.
By Bruno
October 6, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
I think either way we’re in a recession that is going to deepen just because of consumer fear.
I agree, RF. The question is, is it better to take one big loss right now and then try to rebuild the economy based on realistic home prices, or is it better to prop up the economy using falsely inflated home prices for now and hope that the values will slowly realign themselves with the bad mortgages over the next several years? My gut instinct is to say that it is better to let the real estate market determine the true market values of the distressed properties, and not allow the government to get into the mortgage reclamation business.
We’ve got to stop that decline and restore confidence in the real estate market somehow.
Which makes sense as long as the “solution” isn’t worse than the “problem”.
By JK
October 6, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
I would be in full support of the CDC if they would stick to their original mission of protecting the public from infectious diseases. In case you haven’t noticed, they now feel they are the protectors of the public health from all manner of calamities, including injuries from handguns.
You’re not serious, are you? You honestly think that the CDC does nothing with bio-terror weapons like anthrax and smallpox? You’ve been drinking the Kool-Aid, I’m afraid. I’ll bet that when your kids get sick, you’ll be glad that they get treatment based on the millions of dollars in government research. Keeping people healthy isn’t profitable, which is why government has to get involved. If Pfizer made a vaccine for HIV, they’d make a tidy profit for a while, but it’d dry up after everyone was protected. If Pfizer can instead put its R&D money into pills that give guys 8-hour erections, they can cash in long term. When you have pharmaceutical companies spending millions on prime-time TV ads (you know, the scary “side effects include explosive diarrhea and blindness” ones), they’re not spending it on research.
If you’re such an expert on what the ICAO does, could you please enlighten us on how it could be handled by three guys sitting in a room somewhere? How would they be able to protect you and your family when you fly internationally? Do you even know where ICAO is headquartered? Maybe Delta could go back to just flying between here and Dallas. UPS doesn’t need to be able to ship things worldwide.
Again, the biggest problem with the UN is that they’ve done such a poor job of explaining what they actually do and how. Right-wing ideologues can make up any lies they want to, and some people will eat it up.
By USinUK
October 7, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this
Brunoooooooooooooo -
Sorry, but I think 90K IS a lot of money. But then again, I live in Lilburn…
salary is relative. $90K would be a lot of money to pay … say … a waitress, bank teller or Macy’s clerk. but $90K for a research scientist with his doctorate? sorry, but that’s actually pretty bargain basement. take a moment to think about what his salary would be at a pharma company. or if he worked for a defense company. $90K would be a starter salary for an undergrad diploma.
I agree, but at least I’m not FORCED to do business with companies which I think are wasteful.
tell ya what … when we have a major outbreak of SARS … or bird flu … or TB … or Spanish flu … or, heck, STDs, you don’t have to do anything that the CDC recommends. that’ll show ‘em. in the meantime, those are just a few of the things they’re studying so that countries are prepared if/when the next outbreak happens.
just a fyi - the Spanish flu killed between 20-100 million people after WWI in all parts of the world. think about it - people in 1920 were nowhere near as mobile as they are today, so if we have another virus like that, the devastation could be incrementally worse.
The CDC sucks up somewhere around $6,000,000,000 per year of our tax dollars, and what do we have to show for it? Endless studies about domestic violence and handgun injuries, which have absolutely NOTHING to do with infectious diseases.
sorry, but you’re getting the TOJ treatment on that comment: WHAT A LOAD OF BOLLOCKS! First of all, domestic violence and handgun violence falls under the CDC’s purview of “environmental health/injury prevention”.
Secondly, if you’ll look at the website below, there’s a breakdown of all their spending (ff to the back, they go through their spending program by program) - they fund things like statewide innoculation initiatives and bioterrorism emergency preparedness as well as research.
http://www. cdc. gov/ fmo/ topic/Budget%20Information/appropriationsbudgetformpdf/FY08CDCCJFinal.pdf
dang, Bruno, I hate calling you to the carpet on that one, but the right-wing whine of “government is inefficient and ineffective” sooooooooo doesn’t apply to the CDC, that, frankly, you lost a lot of credibility on that one.
By The Other Jack
October 7, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
The TOJ Treatment?
By USinUK
October 7, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
The TOJ Treatment?
I usually only have bollocks for you …
(hahahahaha … sorry, had to say that)
By Gale
October 7, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
I suspect most of the CDC waste is in the form of salaries to inefficient government workers who would have been shown the door in the private sector. Managers there, apparently have to be extra careful to avoid legal action from employees who may feel they might be discriminated against because of whatever. Note, those government workers who waste money are clerical, not scientists.
By USinUK
October 7, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Gale -
Note, those government workers who waste money are clerical, not scientists.
don’t forget - the government budget system (both at the federal and state levels) are based on “use it or lose it” - so, technology/telephony/stationery issues will be built into the budget, then spent whether needed or not at the end of the year.
that’s the thing that always bugged me when I lived in DC - every July/August there were radio ads about companies that could supply you with computers/monitors/”all your technology needs” before the end of the FY. it just encourages a culture of waste.
that, however, is SIGNIFICANTLY different than - and not to be confused with - accusing public health agencies doing “wasteful” studies about serious public health issues.
By Gale
October 7, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
There is that budget issue, yes. There is no reward for spending well and actually saving money. A manager who does that is penalized by a smaller budget the next year. The gov does not have the corner on bad management, though. Consider many areas where slackers continue to slack while the efficient worker is rewarded with some of the slacker’s work to complete in addition to their own, because they are so much quicker.
By The Other Jack
October 7, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m glad I am giving you something to work with.
This is not a good day.
By USinUK
October 7, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
This is not a good day.
I’m sorry to hear that … I know this is a hard time for you
By Liz Rice
October 7, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
I totally agree with Shaunti. I’m not sure why we ever gave up our power and authority to such a group that votes anti-American such a huge percentage of the time. What were we trying to accomplish? A decision like that can only weaken (and has weakened) our great nation. We don’t need 200 other voices, many of them from nations with opposite world views, to help us make compassionate decisions and objective choices that will strengthen us and our allies.
By Gale
October 7, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
I think the UN, like many other post WWII institutions, needs to be brought into the 21st century. Global needs have changed.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 7, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
I concur with Gale! Send the UN into the next century! They can go to France? Or Germany, Or the Philipines, or South Korea! No a neutral continent..which one? ANTARTICA! there, send all the snivling bastages there.
Who drinks the koolaid deep enough to believe the chosen one didn’t know his buddy was a founding member of the Weather Underground? Jesus! Doesn’t he know that lying is wrong? He is such a liar! I won’t raise taxes.
A 900 million tax cut isn’t the goverment losing one penny! It’s americans keeping that much! People don’t have jobs companies do!
By Gale
October 9, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Ah, the ajc web master is back at work. Or maybe they figured the topic was so lame they could just close off comment for another day.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this
hey sports fans, I love ya! (am I the only person who misses Bob Uecker in the old Miller Lite commercials) … here we are, down in the front row!
so … what happened yesterday … were we put in time-out? was the webmaster in a snit?
TOJ - hope you’re having a better day :-)
By Gale
October 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
I found a topic for consideration while perusing the fluff articles in the papers. Are smokers more social by nature, or simply needy?
How are you, USinUK? I hope your weather is nicer than ours today. We do need the rain through.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Hi Gale!!
Our weather is GORgeous today!! Sunny, blue skies, a bit of a fall snap in the air … I just love autumn. They’re predicting rain for this weekend, so I’m planning on making a big ol’ pot of chilli and savoring the change of seasons.
How are the lake levels with all the rain you guys have been getting lately? Are they starting to recover?
Are smokers more social by nature, or simply needy?
Smoking. urgh. This weekend marks the 15th anniversary of my mother’s death from lung cancer. If there are any smokers on the board, this is my plea to you: please, please, PLEASE find a way to kick the habit. The death my mother went through - well, it’s something I would wish on only the lowest of the low. Seriously. I know it’s a hard habit to break, but if you can’t do it for yourself, do it for the people who love you so that they never have to watch you go through what my mother did.
gah. nuff said.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this
The lakes are still well below full pool. We will need lots more rain to recover. I would like to live elsewhere when we start to catch up. The up side of drought is the lovely clear weather.
My sister in law was recently diagnosed with lung cancer. We are hoping for the best. It seems, even with all the facts about the hazards of smoking, people persist in the habit because they like it. I know it is hard to break away from an addition, but it is a lot easier if you want to. I think smokers are needy. How many times do you see one alone on a smoke break?
By Mara
October 9, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
Hey y’all. Top o’ the mornin’ to ya!! Looks like yet another band has asked cranky old Grampa McSame to cease and desist. He’s been using the Foo Fighters “My Hero” on his campaign and Dave Grohl’s not happy about it.
How many times has this happened now?
Are smokers more social by nature, or simply needy?
Social. And orally fixated.
I think smokers are needy. How many times do you see one alone on a smoke break?
I’m not sure how you got “needy” from smokers prefering to gather together than smoke alone. I would think that those who “need” a smoke would do so anytime. Those who use smoking as a social connection roam in packs.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
Mara, I meant needy in a social context rather than an addition context. Your comment seems to support my view.
I would think McCain’s campaign managers would realize they need band signoffs on the music they choose, especially after the band complaints so far. Maybe he should choose a dead composer. Something rousing and martial like a Susa march.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
Mara -
He’s been using the Foo Fighters “My Hero” on his campaign and Dave Grohl’s not happy about it.
I saw that story online yesterday - all I can say is that it’s yet another example of people listening to the chorus but not getting the song (which is about ordinary people - not politicians or “the elite”, whether you’re talking class or sports, etc).
Much the same way the GOP didn’t get that “Boooooooooooooorn in the USA” wasn’t about what they thought it was about.
(and, on a side note, I just want to say that I think Dave Grohl is an outstanding musician)
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I would think McCain’s campaign managers would realize they need band signoffs on the music they choose, especially after the band complaints so far. Maybe he should choose a dead composer. Something rousing and martial like a Susa march.
gah. we went over all this a few weeks ago with the Heart/Barracuda issue: as long as McCain paid ASCAP the fee, they don’t have to get the artist’s permission to use the song as long as it isn’t for commercial purposes (a rally isn’t considered a commercial event). They should honor the artist’s wishes, but, legally, they don’t have to.
which does lead to the question: will there be a change in the ASCAP rules following these complaints … ???
By Gale
October 9, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
McCain’s age group isn’t known for listening to the lyrics of the music he is choosing.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
Gale -
McCain’s age group isn’t known for listening to the lyrics of the music he is choosing.
well, his advisors seem to have a tin ear for a lot of things, song lyrics being just one of many …
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Gale,
Mara, I meant needy in a social context rather than an addition context. Your comment seems to support my view.
Being a smoker, I do not see how you would casually associate the two.
I see most people eating with others. Does that mean eating = neediness? how about girls going to the BR in groups?
And FYI, most of us do not really “like” it; more-over, we enjoy the removal of feeling DTs set in.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
by-the-by …
… if you’re a poll junkie these days, here’s a great website:
http:// www. fivethirtyeight. com/
they’ve got some pretty interesting analysis on senate and house races as well as uncommitted voters …
enjoy.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
USinUK, oh right. I remember that now. I think music should have the same rules as photographs. Or maybe they do? Can you use a photograph without paying the photographer or getting permission as long as it isn’t commercial? My partner is a graphic designer and she is always very careful about any image she uses.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
JokesOn, so are you saying the many nicotine replacement products don’t work? The are many products and programs for people who want to quit.
Mostly, I threw this out to see what responses would be. The word needy obviously has meaning and in this context will elicite certain reponses, depending on what side of the smoking issue one is. I think many smokers start smoking as a way to fit in with a group.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
I don’t really think it is about smokers being needy. There may be some social implications about their personality based on how/why they STARTED smoking, ie (more) susceptible to peer pressure, unable to cope with stress through other means, need to look cool/socially acceptable. But once that addiction sets in, it’s strong. I say this as an ex-smoker for a little over two years! And JokesOn the smoking cessation aids are really great now a days! The gum is what worked for me, and Mara is right about the oral fixation. I think that is why using the gum is a good way to “step down” from the nic with out having the DT feelings, and it replaces the want/need to put something in your month how ever many times a day you would have had a smoke!
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
Hey Sunshine -
How’s the bump?? How are you feeling?
and WELL DONE YOU on quitting smoking!!!
By Mara
October 9, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
Gale - Maybe he should choose a dead composer. Something rousing and martial like a Susa march
My suggestion was to use “Let the Eagle Soar” by John Ashcroft.
Let the eagle soar,
Like she’s never soared before.
From rocky coast to golden shore,
Let the mighty eagle soar.
Soar with healing in her wings,
As the land beneath her sings:
‘Only God, no other kings.’
Let the mighty eagle soar.
now…doesn’t that sound grass-roots Republican-y? :^)
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Mara …
lolololol … only if they have footage of the man who was our second worst AG ever singing it … (who was then succeeded by the worst AG … who was, in turn, followed up by the most flaccid. now, there’s a legacy).
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Hello USinUK!
The baby boy is good, I think he has some how learned to Riverdance inside of me! Its good to feel him though! Thanks for asking!
Yeah, quitting was hard, I think the hardest part for me was the driving thing, I HAD to smoke in my car, and that is usually a solitary thing. But it is what it is, you grow up you stop bad habits, I know its not easy, and harder for some, but as they say so much of it is mental, when you decide to stop that’s when you will, and only when you will!
The topic has been sort of bland lately I have just been lurking, I think the campaign has been interesting, but I must confess I have taken too much glee in seeing Mrs. Palin’s disastrous interviews! Did you see Mrs. Obama on Larry King or The Daily show last night? She was very impressive, very Jackie Kennedy! You should YouTube it if you missed it.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
I think he has some how learned to Riverdance inside of me! Its good to feel him though! Thanks for asking!
haha … let’s just hope he lets you sleep and doesn’t start doing the House of Pain “Jump Around” or Kool and the Gang “Get Down on It” action around 11:30 p.m. … glad to hear you’re well! :-)
Did you see Mrs. Obama on Larry King or The Daily show last night? She was very impressive, very Jackie Kennedy! You should YouTube it if you missed it.
I think Michelle is SO awesome - poised, sharp, and obviously loves her man … what more can you ask for in a FL??? I’ll be sure to check out YouTube tonight!
By Gale
October 9, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
when you decide to stop that’s when you will, and only when you will!
I love that line! It is true of so many things we do.
Smoking habits today are probably much different than before the public smoking bans. I used to work with people who chain smoked in the office.
But hey, I’m just casting about for a topic we can get into. W2W hasn’t given us much worth discussing lately.
By Mara
October 9, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
Gale - The word needy obviously has meaning and in this context will elicite certain reponses, depending on what side of the smoking issue one is.
actually I think you should define what you mean by “needy” before any more discussion can take place. You say that my comment “Those who use smoking as a social connection roam in packs.” supports your contention that smokers are “needy”. You might be right, but I just don’t understand how you came to that conclusion.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
I think Michelle is SO awesome - poised, sharp, and obviously loves her man
I didn’t see her on Larry King, except for the clips from the morning news but on the daily show she was really good, smart, funny, Possitive! Larry King kept trying to sort of bait her, and never did she say one negative thing about the other ticket, she even compliment Mrs. Palin about balancing children and a career. Very classy, I think they should really have her do more interviews, it is such a strong and clear picture of how wrong she has been characterized! I could see how she could be upset about the things Mrs. Palin and others have been saying about Mr. Obama but she just kept talking about the issues and America and her family! I think she will be a great role model!
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
But hey, I’m just casting about for a topic we can get into. W2W hasn’t given us much worth discussing lately.
we could always revisit an old W2W topic … my favorite being the week of April 26: Is the media contributing to driving the economy into a tree? yeah, Shaunti … this whole mess is the media’s fault.
criminey.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
W2W hasn’t given us much worth discussing lately. Amen!
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
JokesOn, so are you saying the many nicotine replacement products don’t work? The are many products and programs for people who want to quit.
I am saying that they are different than the release of an actual smoke. They can take care of 50-70% of the addiction/habit, but not all of it.
Mostly, I threw this out to see what responses would be. The word needy obviously has meaning and in this context will elicite certain reponses, depending on what side of the smoking issue one is. I think many smokers start smoking as a way to fit in with a group.
It varies. I started smoking for a quick buzz and it had nothing to do with other people or peer pressure.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
USinUK, there’s a thought. The media is driving so much around us. Are they responsible? No. They are not the cause. They do have the ability to fan or dampen the flames on any given issue. What the masses so often forget is that they are revenue-driven. Dull news does not sell papers or advertisement so instead they print entertainment, salted with news. It is always interesting to read the same story from many sources.
Mara, by needy, I mean someone who craves outside approval and acceptance. Let me think. Do I mean something more than that. I don’t think so. What I see, from the perspective of a non-smoker, is people who gain that approval and acceptance from other smokers. Other people do what I do, so I must be doing the right thing. I might extend that to the fans at the Obama and Palin political rallies. Look at all the people around me who are doing what I’m doing. I must be right because there are so many of us doing this right thing. Here, I use the word fans because I heard that recently and I think it is the right word for the atmosphere around the rallies in this election cycle.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
Gale
Smokers are simply addicted to a drug. It isn’t any more complicated than that. And it is one of the most addictive drugs known to man.
My daughter did a high school health project that was an anti-smoking campaign. It was brutal. The whole thing centered around the smell. They printed up some really clever posters to put around school talking about the body and breath odor that smokers ALWAYS have, whether they have just smoked or not..
The anti-smoking commercials that the cigarette companies produced (Talk to your kids about smoking, they will listen) resulted in more kids smoking than before. (Imagine that.) The teachers at her school said that the posters caused such a buzz around school that quite a few kids quit smoking.
BTW. I have video taped many, many surgeries. A doctor once told me that you can tell if a person smokes as soon as you cut into them. It is true. Their insides are a dull burgundy, But a healthy non-smoker’s insides are a bright, almost pink. Nasty habit.
I just wonder how the cig companies caught another generation. Kids smoke like crazy in spite of the risks, (And the smell)
By Gale
October 9, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, I wonder that anyone can start smoking just for a quick buzz. My first and last experience was a fit of coughing. It was not pleasurable in any sense.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
I’ll try this again:
USinUK
Doing OK. I am working to very late every night to try and keep up. I think I have more work right now than I have had in years.
I think the topic should be :Is W2W becomeing irrelavant?
Here’s a topic. Several in the neighborhood are pushing everybody to vote for the new library referendum. They are wanting to tear down the 28 year old central library and replace it with a bigger building with more open atriums, more media centers, more gathering places and more display rooms. How about some more BOOKS?
The cost of the new central library will be 170 million. Keep in mind that the Georgia Dome cost 175 million. They just spent millions building a new east Atlanta branch and it stinks as a library. It is mostly a media center. I looked up my ten favorite books the other niight on the Fulton County website and only one, Innocents Abroad was in the east Atlanta Branch.
I hate these new libraries. they are noisy, it is impossible to find anything worth reading.
If we are going to build community centters with public use computers, I am thinking a 50 thousand dollar steel building on an empty lot and fill it full of donated computers. That is hardly going to cost us 170 million.
Anyway, that’s my rant d’jour.
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Other people do what I do, so I must be doing the right thing.
That applies to all things human: how subgroups talk (radical man!), dress, where their hair, suits they wear….etc.
Hence why i think discrimination is what all people that associate with a group want. they just do not want the negative connotations that come with the group in question. Example, a person of a certain class and sexual orientation will act and dress in a manner that makes them easier to recognize by others in that group.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
Gale -
Dull news does not sell papers or advertisement so instead they print entertainment, salted with news.
not to mention - when we were growing up, there was the 6:00 local news and the 7-7:30 national news (+ 60 Minutes on Sunday). Now, there’s that PLUS CNN, MSNBC, FOX, CNBC, talk radio, the internet (+ blogs) … you almost can’t blame them for idiocy like the “lipstick on a pig” brouhaha … they have 24 hours to fill (please note, I said ALMOST)
It is always interesting to read the same story from many sources.
I agree with you there, when I was digging around on the first bail-out plan, I had to hit no less than 6 papers before I felt like I got the whole story.
Sunshine -
I could see how she could be upset about the things Mrs. Palin and others have been saying about Mr. Obama but she just kept talking about the issues and America and her family! I think she will be a great role model!
testify!!! :-)
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
I just wonder how the cig companies caught another generation. Kids smoke like crazy in spite of the risks, (And the smell)
because it will always be considered “cool” (sadly)
heading home … checking back in later
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Jackie O always had either a smile or a pleasant look on her face. Ms. Obama always looks extremely angry. that is not a good look for a public figure, whether they be male or female.
By Mara
October 9, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
Gale - I mean someone who craves outside approval and acceptance
well, that may have been true in the past, but these days very few subgroups are as vilified as smokers are today.
Heck, there’re laws being proposed that would prohibit people smoking in their own apartments/condo’s, in their own cars, even outdoors in public venues. Smokers have been banned in buildings and forced out onto the streets where they’re required to stay a minimum distance away from building entrances. You can’t smoke in bars or dance clubs anymore nor have an after-dinner cigarette in restaraunts. Can you name any other legal substance that is as vilified as tobacco? Even drinking (in moderation) is more socially acceptable than having the occasional cigarette. Smoking doesn’t require a group. However, being part of a group does make being banished outside like a naughty puppy feel just a bit less exclusionary.
If you’re the type of person that craves approval, you won’t get that by being a smoker. Not anymore.
I suggest that there is a “need” aspect in all social interaction though. Almost everyone, except the anti-social, have a certain amount of hunger for acceptance. We all NEED social interaction. Studies show that humans deprived of social contact develop mental illnesses and emotional instabilities. We all want to be part of a social group. Some people fill that need by joining a political party. Some are surfers, techno-geeks, church members, gangbangers, etc. Having something in common, even if it is smoking, opens the door for conversation and interaction.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Gale
The difference between smokers and drinkers being separated is that drinkers usually don’t spray alcohol on anyone standing around them. And if they did, it wouldn’t be absorbed into their skin.
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
I don’t think Michelle Obama “looks extremely angry all the time.” Perhaps one views the expressions of others through their own whatever-colored glasses. Just because a woman doesn’t do the cutesy, bouncy, cheerleader schtick, (wink) doesn’t mean she’s angry.
Nicotine is a DRUG, y’all. People might start because it’s cool, but they keep doing it because the brain adapts to need and want the DRUG. Lots of people don’t smoke publicly anymore, but when they’re stressed or can’t sleep, they’ll slip AWAY from others and… “aaaahhhhhh….. yessss.” Once you’re addicted you’re always addicted. You can learn to control it, but there will always be times when you really really want one. Best tip: Don’t start. Next best: moderate and lay off as much as possible. For the non-smokers: Mind your own bleep bleep beeswax, ‘cause that cigarette might just have averted a homocide or serious maiming. I’m just sayin’.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
Mara, good post. If I can draw a line; first, a smoker enjoys this (addictive, as JokesOn puts it) activity with or without a group. I am still inclined to believe it starts as a group related activity. Then, as a ban on smoking in public building starts, the smokers begin smoking in groups. Finally, public opinion turns against smokers and the group probably gets smaller. To be honest, I see fewer groups of smokers these days. Is there a psychological um, negative feeling associated with smoking, knowing that the activity is frowned upon by others? I don’t mean adolescencts, mind you. I am curious about how adults are reacting to the changing attitudes about smoking. I am curious. I may have to go poll my coworkers who do smoke.
I’ve decided that I would have a hard time coming up with a discussion topic every week to try to argue one side or another about it.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Kimberly
I don’t think Michelle Obama “looks extremely angry all the time.” Perhaps one views the expressions of others through their own whatever-colored glasses. Just because a woman doesn’t do the cutesy, bouncy, cheerleader schtick, (wink) doesn’t mean she’s angry.
Don’t start this personal attack crap. If you type in “Angry Michell Obama” into any search engine, you will get thousands and thousands of hits. Conservative and liberal pundits have discussed this for two years. It’s not like I am the first to notice.
A woman doesn’t have to look like a cheerleader to be pleasant. Hillary Clinton can look very angry, but she doesn’t spend her life looking like that. The comparison was with Jackie O. Here’s a big news flash for you: Jackie O DID look like a cutesy, bouncy, cheerleader, at least while she was first lady, so get over the angry woman crap. A woman doesn’t have to look like Attila the Hun to be taken seriously.
By Snidely Buttright
October 9, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
The difference between smokers and drinkers being separated is that drinkers usually don’t spray alcohol on anyone standing around them
naw, they just puke on you, fall down on you, get violent, pee in alleys/hallways/gutters, drive drunk, start crying, show their -ss, or become really really friendly.
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
Is there a psychological um, negative feeling associated with smoking, knowing that the activity is frowned upon by others?
Yep, there is. That is one of the things that annoy me. It is now commonly thought that if you smoke, you are a bad person. I know people that would not date a smoker, which I find pretty stupid given how hard it is to find someone you click with. If being a smoker is a persons biggest issue/vice, it is pretty small in the grand scheme of things.
By JustaJew
October 9, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this
I’ve decided that I would have a hard time coming up with a discussion topic every week to try to argue one side or another about it.
So maybe one (not necessarily you) should lay off the poor W2W ladies who DO have to. Wait, what am I saying? They get paid for it…oh well, they’re not the only ones who get paid for doing a bad job. Did anyone see the news item about the $410,000.00 shindig the AIG execs threw AFTER they received the first run of “bailout” money?
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Wow, TOJ, you sound really angry!
I was just stating my personal observation: “I don’t think” she looks angry. You know, she doesn’t look angry TO ME. Clearly she does to you, and I didn’t mean to step on your tender toes and somehow imply that you are not entitled to your own feelings. Based on the intensity of your response, YOUR feelings and observations are the only valid ones, so please accept my most sincere apology for my egregiously unwarranted expression of an opinion other than your own.
BTW, my unwarranted opinion is based, in part, on the understanding that she shape of one’s facial bones and brow position, like one’s skin color, is the result of pre-determined genetic factors and, despite centuries of “scientific” posturing to the contrary, is NOT an indicator of one’s intelligence, moral character, or emotional state. Thanks for setting me straight, though. (Perhaps doing some drugs of your own might make living among the intolerable rest of us easier to bear.)
By JustaJew
October 9, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Hey Kimberly,
I hope your taking everything TOJ says with a grain of salt, I mean, this is the guy that after the RNC was saying how it was almost going to be “too easy” for the McCain/Palin ticket to win the presidency. Mostly because he thought Democrats were applying a double standard to the Governor from Alaska. According to Gallup, Obama has a 9 point lead or so. TOJ predicted that McCain’s blip of a rise in the polls after the RNC would just continue to escalate. Talk about foot in mouth… (hey TOJ, I hope you don’t think this is JokesOn posting).
By Gale
October 9, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
I disagree, JokesOn. The smell from cigarettes clings to everything. I would consider it a big impediment to an intimate relationship. Heck, it is an impediment to riding in an elevator with someone after a smoke break. I understand that a smoker would not feel the same about this because a smoker is used to the smell. I have noticed that as fewer places allowed smoking, my sensitivity to the smell increased. I don’t think you are a bad person for it. I just don’t like the smell.
But back to the point I was trying to understand. Is there, perhaps a growing feeling of negativity that is causing smokers to smoke alone now more than in groups because of a desire to not be included in this group?
I have to go check on this AIG party on the Fed’s dime.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
A British gardener’s local council has ordered him to remove a 3-foot high barbed wire fence around his property in case thieves hurt themselves on it, the Daily Mail reported Thursday.
Bill Malcolm, 61, installed the wire at his Worcester property after burglars robbed his tool shed and vegetable plots three times in four months, stealing more than $500 worth of hardware.
But Malcolm’s local council told him the wire was a health and safety hazard and warned him they would remove it by force if he did not do it himself, the Mail reported.
“The council said they were unhappy about the precautions I had made but my response was to tell them that only someone climbing over on to my allotment could possibly hurt themselves,” Malcolm told the Mail. “They shouldn’t be trespassing in the first place but the council apologized and said they didn’t want to be sued by a wounded thief.”
The council said that a fence on the property must be a post or rail fence, not barbed wire.
“With regard to the barbed wire, when this is identified on site, we are obliged to request its removal or remove it on health and safety grounds to the general public as this is a liability issue,” a council spokeswoman told the Mail.
He slipped on freighter skidded the ocean and left england without a sound J. Buffett
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Sunshine you know what they say about girls who put a cigarette in thier mouth? :-)
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
If being a smoker is a persons biggest issue/vice, it is pretty small in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, I really though that too, UNTIL I quit smoking! I am not putting smokers down or taking a moral stance on it, but it affects lots of aspects of being with someone! And I was the smoker and my partner was a non smoker! You really don’t believe all the comments about the smell when you are a smoker, well, because, you can’t smell anything. But your clothes, hair, car, furniture, EVERYTHING is infused with the permanent smell of it. I can now go to a restaurant and smell if the waitress has gone outside and had a smoke between visits to our table. Even is she is standing 2 feet away from me. I would have never believed that was true when I smoked!
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
I disagree, JokesOn. The smell from cigarettes clings to everything. I would consider it a big impediment to an intimate relationship.
Honestly, I really though that too, UNTIL I quit smoking! I am not putting smokers down or taking a moral stance on it, but it affects lots of aspects of being with someone! And I was the smoker and my partner was a non smoker! You really don’t believe all the comments about the smell when you are a smoker, well, because, you can’t smell anything. But your clothes, hair, car, furniture, EVERYTHING is infused with the permanent smell of it.
I understand and agree that those things exist. I simply do not think that compared to fidelity, laziness, hygiene, being a gym rat or not, being argumentative, and etc that it is really that big of a deal. At that point of specifics, you are in the realm of comfort and luxuries you are looking for in a mate; not deal breakers or core values.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
ELDEST OF EIGHT GRADERS: Just quit you (DUMBASS)! Not smoking, posting. You once again have shown what you can learn in 15 years of Elementary School.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
With an 8th grade education, JokesOn.. you know what they say…. beggars can’t be choosers! I bet your parents had to tie a steak around your neck to get the dog to play with you. YOU, you….(DUMBASS)!
By Gale
October 9, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, I might have agreed with you when I was younger. My first husband smoked. At the time, there were no bans on public smoking. But I still remember that kissing him was like licking an ashtray. If my current partner had been a smoker, or if I was and she wasn’t, we would not have gotten past casual friendship because neither of us would have gotten within two feet of one another. Maybe it is age, or maybe women just feel differently about this thing. Or maybe I just haven’t recently fallen madly in love with a smoker. But honestly, I think you are fooling yourself. Cigarette smoke stinks.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
Smokers are stupid. And if you want a stupid mate, get a smoker…how hard is that?
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
JokesOn:
compared to fidelity, laziness, hygiene, being a gym rat or not, being argumentative, and etc that it is really that big of a deal. At that point of specifics, you are in the realm of comfort and luxuries you are looking for in a mate; not deal breakers or core values.
I can see where you are coming from, and I think there are so many aspects of “finding the one” that smoking may not be the end all, be all. But I know that I down played how much the affects of smoking impacted those around me when I was a smoker. As always “hind sight is 20/20”.
But just to keep to keep the discussion going: I think that every thing other than fidelity is a nuance of a relationship, those things are not make or break issues either compared to: does he love me, is he nice to me, does he put others first? (And vice versa if the relationship is going to work!) Those are the BIG issues.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Kimberly
Your comment about the “whatever tint to my glasses” comment is what got under my skin. It has been two years now of walking on eggshells to avoid anything being tied to race, which of course you did in your response.
As far as smoking, it makes you stink, whether you just had a cigarette or not. If a non smoker is having a meal, the smell of smoke will completely ruin the taste of anything you are eating. Ashes, cigarette butts, the smell that gets into EVERYTHING. And the breath that would knock a buzzard off a sh^t wagon at fifty paces.
Smokers don’t get it because they have no sense of smell, at least toward the poison that is cursing through their veins. I have never talked to an ex-smoker who wasn’t amazed at how much they can now smell and taste.
it isn’t a bad vise, other than the fact that it is killing you, it costs a fortune and you have horrible body odor and bad breath so any non smoker you are ever standing close to thinks you smell like a New York City taxi. Not a bad vise at all.
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
If my current partner had been a smoker, or if I was and she wasn’t, we would not have gotten past casual friendship because neither of us would have gotten within two feet of one another.
That is exactly my point. You would have missed out on a good fit except for the one aspect of smoking. If your partner started smoking, would you break up with her?
But honestly, I think you are fooling yourself. Cigarette smoke stinks. I actually agreed with that, so not sure where you might be coming from. Back to my point though, there are many other things that stink (figuratively and literally) just as bad and worse that ARE socially okay to compromise on.
Like, would you date a Brad Pitt (metaphor for whomever you think is hot/cool/polite/etc) that smoked, or a Gandalf the Grey type of a$$ that did not smoke?
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
On to political issues (cause I personally am more interested in that than this topic about the UN :-) why haven’t we seen more of an issue with this story from the AP news wire: (ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jzQtw1kATj1xCqPcAmwgCKDtNpDQD93LT9NG0)
McCain linked to group in Iran-Contra affair—
(just taking snip-its here, its a long article, that’s why I posted the link!)
In the 1980s, McCain served on the advisory board to the U.S. chapter of an international group linked to ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America.
The U.S. Council for World Freedom aided rebels trying to overthrow the leftist government of Nicaragua. That landed the group in the middle of the Iran-Contra affair and in legal trouble with the Internal Revenue Service, which revoked the charitable organization’s tax exemption.
The council created by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Singlaub was the U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America. After setting up the U.S. council, Singlaub served as the international league’s chairman…..
…..”I didn’t know whether (the group’s activity) was legal or illegal, but I didn’t think I wanted to be associated with them,” McCain said in a 1986 newspaper interview…..
……In McCain’s case, he was a House member and a board member of Singlaub’s council when the new congressman voted for military assistance to the Nicaraguan Contras, a CIA-organized guerrilla force. In 1984, Congress cut off military assistance to the rebels.
Months before the cutoff, top Reagan administration officials ramped up a secret White House-directed supply network run by National Security Council aide Oliver North, who relied on retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Richard Secord to carry out the operation. The goal was to keep the Contras operating until Congress could be persuaded to resume CIA funding.
Singlaub’s private group became the public front for the secret White House activity.
THIS IS THE GUY THEY WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE??!?!
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Smokers
One other comment.
Human bodies smell good if they are clean. There are few things sexier than making love after both parties have just bathed. That is, if neither party smokes. The tars that smell in cigarettes stay in your body whether you just had a cigarette or not. It takes months for those smells to leach out of your body after you quit smoking.
So it isn’t a matter of taking a shower and changing clothes. You stink to anyone who doesn’t smoke and you will until you stop smoking. it is the Ultimate hygiene problem.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
TOJ,
Just an outside observation but I don’t think “through their own whatever-colored glasses” had anything to do with race. I think it was just a turn of phrase, bassed on “rose-colored glasses”
Its kinda like Mr. McCain’s “That One” comment, I know a lot of people thought is was demeaning (I agree) but I don’t think it was really intended to be racial.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
Jackie O always had either a smile or a pleasant look on her face. Ms. Obama always looks extremely angry. that is not a good look for a public figure, whether they be male or female.
well. I just watched the LK and the Daily Show interviews - I thought she was lovely, gracious and extremely kind (especially given the crap that’s being flung by the other side - she would be entitled to be a little catty, but she wasn’t).
I think your bias is showing in your “she looks angry” comment - I think she could walk around with a Mona Lisa beatific look on her face and you’d still find fault. does she have unfortunate eyebrows? yes, but I think if you youtube her appearance on The View, LK and Daily I think you’d be hard-pressed to say she looks angry.
sorry, bub, but there it is.
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, I agree with you, but there are many forms of prejudice. There will always be people who feel better about themselves when they’re putting someone else down. In the end, each person does what he or she wants, puts up with what he or she is willing to put up with, and rationalizes it all to his or her own satisfaction, whether it makes any sense or not.
As to your question… hmmmm… would I go with a beautiful smoker who makes sweet love, or a tight-a— puritan with a nasty temperament? Tough call! Haha!
By Gale
October 9, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
That is exactly my point. You would have missed out on a good fit except for the one aspect of smoking. If your partner started smoking, would you break up with her?
Your point is well taken. I would probably work like hell to get her to quit. I think she would do the same. Consider this similar situation that doesn’t involve smell. Your partner of some years suddenly gets religion where both of you have been pretty casual in the past. You find the new found devotion, which your partner tries every waking moment to engage you in, to be offensive. What would you do? This situation has been known to cause divorce.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
Sunshine, wasn’t Bush Sr heavily involved with the Iran-Contra affair? And the article says Reagan was involved? Say it ain’t so! Reagan is the Republican superman.
By RF
October 9, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
Saw something interesting today. I went to early voting- cast my ballot and feelin’ good about it!! The lady manning the door said the lines had been pretty steady since early voting began. Seems with all the hoopla on the idiot box, many voters have already made up their minds and are already voting. The rhetoric about who’s friends with who and moral discussions aren’t keeping people from deciding. I think most voters already know and aren’t being swayed one way or the other.
Smokers (guilty as charged) are feeling the pressure and from what I see are slinking off more and more to the far reaches to indulge the habit. I won’t even light one in an “approved” area unless it’s away from foot traffic, etc. I fell the pressure and smoke less, especially away from home. I simply don’t think about it most days until I’m home in my own backyard. I couldn’t do it in a restaurant or public place if I had to. Trust me, the general public sentiment is having an effect.
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
Sunshine and USinUK, thanks for clarifying my remarks to TOJ. You are exactly right regarding my meaning, but I felt that any attempt on my part to explain further would be received as an invitation to fling more misdirected anger in my direction.
By USinUK
October 9, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
sunshine -
I saw the same story in the WaPo or The NYT a couple of days ago … am shocked that more hasn’t been made of it. McCain SERVED ON THE BOARD of this organization … the same organization that supported a bunch of nun-murdering fascists …
which makes me wonder … what liberal media??? “lipstick on a pig” was non-stop for 36 hours, but this??? all I’m hearing is crickets …
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
Sunshine
Bill Ayers bombed private American citizens, not to mention the pentagon. He had planned to bomb an officer’s club at a US military base, but the idiot ended up detonating the bomb and almost killed all of his fellow terrorists.
Bill Ayers recieved a Grant from the Anenberg foundation for advancing the education of Chicago children. Obama’s first community organizing job was to distribute that money for Bill Ayers. None went to schools, but instead to specific organizations that encouraged children to be more rebellious and to question everything, in other words to become little anarchists.
This has largely been ignored by the mainstream media.
But you wonder why McCain was not tied to Iran Contra. Do you understand that Iran Contra was about a Republican President and a Democratic Congress that disagreed on which side to take in a dispute in South America? Iran Contra had been completely legal until Congress cut off funding, stranding the freedom fighters we had been supporting. We turned our back on people that had been fighting against our enemies with our support.
This was all they could get on Reagan. So this became the Democratic Hammer to hurt a very popular Republican President. And God knows, politics is much more important than the lives of men that were fighting for our cause, until they just happened to get in the middle of Washington Politics.
I don’t think it has come up in the media because no Democrat wants a 21st century, cable TV debate about Iran Contra. It’s now just too easy for Americans to be told the truth.
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
Your partner of some years suddenly gets religion where both of you have been pretty casual in the past. You find the new found devotion, which your partner tries every waking moment to engage you in, to be offensive. What would you do? This situation has been known to cause divorce.
Now that would be an interesting topic. That would actually change someone and their views, where-as smoking does not.
As for what I would do in the religion situation: I would bring up that we have grown apart and should probably go separate ways.
A reply for all the purposely condescending comments about smokers: As Mr Wonka stated: I know worse habits that turn people off, including smokers and heroine addicts alike.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
McCain SERVED ON THE BOARD of this organization AND was on the letterhead for like 6 YEARS!
Yeah, I have no idea why this doesn’t have more traction, I mean this is a bit different than having a “coffee” in someones home, once.
I heard about it in some of the more supposedly “liberal” media outlets first but when I saw it on the AP I new they weren’t bias! I guess it just is all about “low Information voters” this story doesn’t translate well into a cute little sound bite and takes a bit of world knowledge to even understand the importance of. Not what the masses (or the guys shouting “Kill him” and “terriorist” at the Palin events) want to wrap their brains around!
By Gale
October 9, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Ow, another painfull close on Wall Street neighbors.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Obama made the lipstick on a pig comment the day before he was scheduled to be on Letterman. He knew that the Republicans would raise hell and he would then get two good days of liberal media McCain rebuke to be crowned off by a night of fun with David Letterman, an obvious ally.
The comment was completely tactical. Do you not realize this is world class politics by a state of the art political machine? Do you honestly think that was a harmless, off handed remark.
Democrats …
you’re good …
you’re good …
you’re very, very good.
By Gale
October 9, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Interesting, you would just walk away. I’ll have to think about that one, JokesOn. But I’m leaving now, so it will be tomorrow. G’night all.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Gale
What was that $700,000,000,000 for? That would have meant $3500 apiece for all adult Americans. I could have used that money and the economy would have exploded, no more problem. Any couple could have had 7 grand to make a down payment on a house. (At least a small house)
And USinUK, I saw where England just threw a trillion at their problem.
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
You know TOJ, you really sound like you know your stuff but just a quick google to Wiki tells a completely different story:
The Iran-Contra affair was a political scandal which was revealed in November 1986 as a result of earlier events during the Reagan administration. It began as an operation to increase U.S.-Iranian relations, wherein Israel would ship weapons to a moderate, politically influential group of Iranians opposed to the Ayatollah Khomeini; the U.S. would reimburse Israel for those weapons and receive payment from Israel. The moderate Iranians agreed to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by Hezbollah. The plan eventually deteriorated into an arms-for-hostages scheme, in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran in exchange for the release of the American hostages, without the direct authorization of President Ronald Reagan.[1][2] Large modifications to the plan were conjured by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North of the National Security Council in late 1985. In North’s plan, a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua.[3]
Mr. McCain was on a board of an organization (WHILE HE WAS A SITTING MEMBER OF THE US CONGRESS) that sold weapons to Iran, and funded death squads in South America. Don’t give me a bunch of right wing justification for something you would CRUCIFY a democrat for doing!
By Palin' around with the Palins
October 9, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
“I’m an Alaskan, not an American. I’ve got no use for America or her d-mned institutions. The fires of Hell are glaciers compared to my hate for the American government.”
Palin good buddy Joe Vogler, who may or may not have had Sunday dinner at the Palins’ house, founded a secessionist party that TODD PALIN JOINED, and under Sarah Palin’s own definition, a “PAL” of theirs. He was murdered in what the confessed murderer described as “a plastic explosives sale gone bad.” Sounds like a domestic terrorist.
Why do the Palins hate America? Why does McCain love America haters?
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Here’s another one since the McCain/Palin ticket wants to bring up terrorist:
“The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government.” Pop quiz! Who said that? “The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government,” Vogler, the founder of Alaskan Independence Party, said in a 1991 interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP. Palin has courted the group over the years. She has repeatedly reached out to the group. The McCain campaign has confirmed she visited the group’s 2000 convention, and she addressed its convention this year, as an incumbent governor whose oath of office includes upholding the Constitution of the United States. Palin’s husband, Todd Palin, was a member of the party from 1995-2002 with a brief exception in 2000. Sarah Palin palling around with secessionists!
By JokesOn
October 9, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
Interesting, you would just walk away.
I do not think I said it that flippantly. If I did say it in a manner that sounded like that, what I meant was: I would make sure it was a life decision and not a passing phase. If it was a life decision, yes I would walk away. I tend to think religion/world view is one of those aspects that does need to line up pretty close for a relationship to work.
By RF
October 9, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
but instead to specific organizations that encouraged children to be more rebellious and to question everything, in other words to become little anarchists
Name those organizations please. I’ve been waiting for the “smoking gun” on this issue. So far, I’ve heard plenty of talk about the Weather Underground but no real, substantive terroristic, anarchistic, or un-American connection between Obama and Ayers. Remember, btw, Annenberg was a devoted Republican and his foundation doesn’t give money willy-nilly to anyone.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
Sunshine
I am very proud of everything that happened. Reagan was trying to establish closer relations with Iran, was actually causing Iran and Israel to be working together and was doing a very smart thing to stimulate anti-Islamic factions in Iran, the very same factions that now run that country. Don’t forget, we were still involved in the cold war and countries were either allied or axis.
If that program would have been allowed to continue, there is a very good chance that we would not be facing the crazies that are looking desperately for nuclear arms in Iran today.
And just at this statement from your post: In North’s plan, a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua. . Fighting communists? Somebody get a rope!!! That’s what we did during the cold war.
The only problem with anything that happened was that the Democrats, like now, controlled Washington and they hated Ronald Reagan at least as much as the current band of criminals hates Bush.
I’m telling you, this is not an argument that Democrats want to push.
Establish relations with Iran
Establish relations between Iran and Israel.
Help anti-communist forces in Central America.
Sounds like a win, win, win to me. Too bad the democrats decided to stop it all. We might be living in a different world now, if they hadn’t let politics get in the way … again.
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
October 11, 2007: John McCain, discussing Hillary Clinton’s health care ideas, says, “You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig.” Video available on YouTube.
Question: Is it different when a Republican says it, or is the media coverage just different?
By RF
October 9, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Todd Palin, was a member of the party from 1995-2002 with a brief exception in 2000. Sarah Palin palling around with secessionists
Sunshine- in the conservative mindset, that’s okay because he WAS a memeber and repented of his sins. The past doesn’t matter unless it benefits you and makes the other guy look bad. I said when McSame’s campaign began the stretching and manipulation of facts to attack Obama that it would come back to haunt them. Give it time, the truth will win out, which is what McSame and Pale Intellect want anyway! I just hope they’re ready for it.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Volger is dead now. Has been for years.
But the best part is that is all minor compared to what Bill Ayers DID, not just said.
So our choices are a President with close ties to a man who as recently as 2001, said that he doesn’t regret trying to kill Americans by bombing their houses, or a President who has a vice president who has a husband that once belonged to an organization that used to have a president that said some things almost as bad as the guy who was bombing those houses had said.
Again, is this an argument that you really want to attempt?
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
TOJ—I am very proud of everything that happened. Well then you condone criminal activity: “In the end, fourteen administration officials were charged with crimes, and eleven convicted, including then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger.”
Like I said, don’t pee on my leg and tell me its raining! That is a way to justify war criminals activities. Any you should be ashamed of it just like the war crimes committed by this administration!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 9, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
Kimberly to people that aren’t stupid, there is a difference in the timing. But you are stupid so STFU please you (DUMBASS)!
By Sunshine
October 9, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
Volger is dead now. Has been for years.
Convicted thief Manfried West confessed to having murdered Vogler the following year in what he described as a plastic explosives sale gone bad.
You do need to take your what-ever colored glasses off!
You need to revisit your history books or stop reading history as told by Rush or a right wing blog!
Two days later, Reagan met with his advisors at the White House, where a new plan was introduced. This one called for a slight change in the arms transactions: instead of the weapons going to the moderate Iranian group, they would go to moderate Iranian army leaders.[28] (Wiki)…Oliver North, a military aide to the United States National Security Council (NSC), proposed a new plan for selling arms to Iran, which included two major adjustments: instead of selling arms through Israel, the sale was to be direct, and a portion of the proceeds would go to Contras, or Nicaraguan guerilla fighters…1,000 TOW missiles were shipped to the country.[31] From May to November 1986, there were additional shipments of miscellaneous weapons and parts.
If you are proud that our government sold missiles to Iranian army leaders then you are SICK!
Your great and powerful Regan said this:
He then took full responsibility for his actions and those of his administration:
"First, let me say I take full responsibility for my own actions and for those of my administration. As angry as I may be about activities undertaken without my knowledge, I am still accountable for those activities. As disappointed as I may be in some who served me, I'm still the one who must answer to the American people for this behavior."[48]Finally, the president stated that his previous assertions that the U.S. did not trade arms for hostages were incorrect:
"A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not. As the Tower board reported, what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages. This runs counter to my own beliefs, to administration policy, and to the original strategy we had in mind."[48]You should check your facts and your sources apparently!
By kimberly
October 9, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
Vogler may be dead, but did Palin know this man’s positions and the party’s mission statement when he joined? If so, then Todd Palin approved. That Sarah Palin spoke at their conventions says she also approved. Can she define the date and time she decided she no longer agreed with the purpose and mission of the AIP, the way that little Gretchen witch on Faux News this morning went on and on, demanding the Obama rep tell her what day Obama actually learned that Ayers had set off explosives and tried to kill people during the 60s?
TOJ, I think your argument is moot anyway, since people care about what’s happening to US, our finances, our lives, and our futures. This “character issue” thing is pointless and retarded. Almost no one comes out 100% squeaky clean under intense scrutiny, and NO ONE comes out squeaky clean if you judge them by associations. If you can claim you do, then I encourage you to run YOUR a— for office in two years and put it all out there. Takes guts to face the people, no matter who you are. I say let’s vote for the smart guy who seems to actually give a s—- what the rest of us are going through, not the rich, wall-street enabler who disingenuously refers to us as “my friend” over and over. But that’s just my opinion.
By The Other Jack
October 9, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
Kimberly
Just the day before Obama said it, Sarah Palin had said that the different between a hockey Mom and an attack dog was LIPSTICK. She had closely identified herself with the term.
it is all about communications. I am complimenting your party on their ability to use the media for their purposes. And it worked brilliantly. How many of the standard, Daily Show, Leno, Letterman every entertainment outlet had a blast with that, and the complete consensus was that the Republicans looked like fools. Whoever had the idea to do that was an absolute hero for quite a while.
I resent that the democrats have that kind of tool and I am convinced that without the power of that constant propaganda, the democrats would never have a prayer at winning anything. If Republicans ever become cool, you guys are toast.
You completely underestimate the abilities of these political parties. They are as good as Hollywood, in fact, look at the media people with both campaigns. LOTS of Hollywood connections. This is for the leadership of the planet for all practical purposes. Why in the world would you think that this kind of contest would have people that just let things happen as they might?
It didn’t matter what John McCain was saying about anything in 2007. That was all about Obama and Clinton.
This is easy. Don’t look at what they do or say, look at the motivation for what they do or say. THAT’S where the truth is. These are politicians. I know you love them, but it is an accepted fact that IF THEIR MOUTHS ARE MOVING, THEY ARE LYING.
Have a good night. Sorry about the tension. It’s been an annoying day.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 10, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
WHY EVEN TALK TO KIMBERLY THE (DUMBASS)? TOJ you are wasting your time, just tell her what she needs to hear, STFU! :-)
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 10, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
WHY EVEN TALK TO KIMBERLY THE (DUMBASS)? TOJ you are wasting your time, just tell her what she needs to hear, STFU! :-)
By Lyrazel
October 10, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Annoying little tidbits too late to discuss: angry Michelle O vs Jackie Kennedy-O” Jackie when she was in the White house had all photographs scripted. She was a stickler for controlling the press and especially photographs—no one got to press without her approval. But that was way back when—and she did not face the 24 hour media. I doubt Kennedy would be elected today. What is it about first ladies that is important to voters? Wives only meet & greet or plan suppers and are not policy makers (despite Hillary saying she was so involved). I want more info about the cabinet the newly elected prez is going to put in. Why can’t we know who they are putting in important positions BEFORE so it helps us form a decision of which bought-by-special-interests candidate is elected. Would rather learn that than if the first lady has bunions from her Jimmy Choos
By kimberly
October 10, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
TOJ, I see what you’re saying, but I disagree. FIRST, Obama was discussing McCain’s policies, not Palin’s good looks! (like the GOP and other American horn dogs were.) SECOND, SHE stood up and compared HERSELF to pit bull DOG. It’s inappropriate to then start whining about being compared to an animal, and BTW, SHE wasn’t the one whining about having her wittow feewings hurt. Rather, it was the party loyalists who spend every day knee-jerking and boo-hooing about how the mean ol’ libruls hurt their feelings. This week they’re squawking about the Newsweek cover not being airbrushed! (WTF?) It’s not Palin who’s crying over her close-up, it’s those who WANT to be outraged on her behalf, for whatever reason they can make up today, to keep the division going. (Further, during the Primary, she was caught on tape asserting that if Hillary wanted to be taken seriously as a candidate, she had to “quit whining” about being criticized.)
Palin knows she’s beautiful and I think does not give a moose’s nut what people say about her. I further think she was picked for her pit bull-like qualities: attack and defend as ordered, with unbridled enthusiasm and unquestioning obedience and loyalty. She’s doing it quite well, IMO, don’t you agree? She certainly wasn’t picked for her ability to think fast on her feet, recite facts and figures, or answer complex quesions (like, “what publications do you read?”)
By kimberly
October 10, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this
Gandalf the delusional. Go rub some cream on those blisters before you wank off to the newsweek cover again, and then drink a gallon of paint, whydoncha. Then come back and tell us how you’re feeling, mmm-kay? We look forward to your report.
By Gale
October 10, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
JokesON, briefly back to yesterday. Ok, I accept that you what you were saying. I think the decision to smoke or not would be a similar life decision.
By RF
October 10, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this
but instead to specific organizations that encouraged children to be more rebellious and to question everything, in other words to become little anarchists
Name those organizations please. I’m not trying to bait you- I really want to know. I’ve been waiting for the “smoking gun” on this issue. So far, I’ve heard plenty of talk about the Weather Underground but no real, substantive terroristic, anarchistic, or un-American connection between Obama and Ayers. Remember, btw, Annenberg was a devoted Republican and his foundation doesn’t give money willy-nilly to anyone. Everything I’ve been able to find online indicates that the Chicago educational projects funded by Annenberg were transparent, documented, and above-board, with records published and available for future researchers to use.
By JokesOn
October 10, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
I think the decision to smoke or not would be a similar life decision.
I do not see how that could be. It is a life decision (not necessarily life-long), but does it effect how/what you think about the world, others, a persons value, etc? I think not.
Your stance reminds me of the Brook Shields add in which she states “I think smokers are ugly (or some such generalization).” It is something that you (and many others) allow to tint the character and value of a whole person. I think that is an err in judgment and goes back to my phrase on binary thinking. One facet of a person rarely tallies up the whole of that person. To extrapolate that one facet to the rest of the person is an easy way out of getting to actually know the whole person.
I know smokers of all types, and could not name a single similarity other than they smoke.
Now, drinkers on the other hand actually have documented traits that permiate all of their character; hence why alcoholism is considered a wholistic disease and is vastly different than a chronic smoker.
By Gale
October 10, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
JokesOn, the smokers life decision is that he does not care that his smoke would cause his partner to live in a stinky house, and that he does not care that he is potentially damaging his own health and that of those who live with him. That is a reflection of how a smoker sees the world. IMO.
If alchoholism is a disease, and I am not claiming that it is, how is addiction to alchohol different from addition to nicotine? I might want to get to know the person and would not automatically write them off. But I would refuse to live with or date that person.
By Gale
October 10, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
USinUK, I saw an article about eaves dropping on phone conversations of Americans living abroad. Do you think the NSA got anything juicy on you?
By JokesOn
October 10, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
JokesOn, the smokers life decision is that he does not care that his smoke would cause his partner to live in a stinky house, and that he does not care that he is potentially damaging his own health and that of those who live with him. That is a reflection of how a smoker sees the world. IMO.
Who says the smoker does not care? That is like saying a cat owner does not care that the litter box causes the house to smell. They care and most do what they can to minimize the effect.
If alcoholism is a disease, and I am not claiming that it is, how is addiction to alcohol different from addition to nicotine?
If a drinker stops for 5 years, the disease still progresses. If after that 5 year period, they start drinking again, it will be as though they never stopped. One is a serious addiction to a chemical and the other is an addiction/ocd behavior/and affect all decisions in life. They miss out on their kids baseball games, going to church stops, healthy sex life stops….etc. Smoking never has stopped me from enjoying a nice day.
I might want to get to know the person and would not automatically write them off. But I would refuse to live with or date that person.
Hmmm. If presented with a similar issue, I would have to weight it compared to all the other facets of the person.
By USinUK
October 10, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
GtG –
A British gardener’s local council has ordered him to remove a 3-foot high barbed wire fence around his property in case thieves hurt themselves on it, the Daily Mail reported Thursday.
It wasn’t around his property (meaning his house), it was around his allotment – BIG difference. Allotments are large, public gardens which are divided into plots for someone to lease and grow whatever he/she wants to grow. With the emphasis on PUBLIC. While I sympathize with the guy wanting to protect his gardening tools, this is a large public space where little ones run around while their parents tend to their patch. Barbed wire has no place there.
TOJ -
The bank bailout wasn’t $1 Trillion. It was £50 Billion which = $85 Billion, plus £250 Billion in loan guarantees, for a grand total of $510 billion.
Gail -
USinUK, I saw an article about eaves dropping on phone conversations of Americans living abroad. Do you think the NSA got anything juicy on you?
I certainly hope so!!! ;-)
By USinUK
October 10, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Just the day before Obama said it, Sarah Palin had said that the different between a hockey Mom and an attack dog was LIPSTICK. She had closely identified herself with the term. it is all about communications. I am complimenting your party on their ability to use the media for their purposes. And it worked brilliantly. How many of the standard, Daily Show, Leno, Letterman every entertainment outlet had a blast with that, and the complete consensus was that the Republicans looked like fools. Whoever had the idea to do that was an absolute hero for quite a while.
Awwwwwwww … how cute! As the song goes “what a difference a day makes” … here’s how highly TOJ thought of the Dem’s communication skills the week of the brouhaha:
By The Other Jack - September 10, 2008 8:27 AM - Lipstick on a pig? LOL!!! Yeah, that should bring women back to the democrats. At this point, after destroying the DNC bump and then gaining a strong lead in less than two weeks, it’s just a matter of whether or not it is going to be a landslide for the Republicans. (yeah .. how’s that “landslide” working out for ya??? Oh, and 53% of women support Obama vs. 39% who support McCain according to Gallup)
By The Other Jack - September 10, 2008 9:06 AM - Obama is calling a very intelligent and popular woman a pig. (“very intelligent”???? “popular”???? Baaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha)
By The Other Jack - September 10, 2008 12:48 PM - If the greatest wordsmith since JFK used the term lipstick on a Pig and the term old smelly fish and didn’t know that there would be a parallel drawn even among the most liberal media outlets, he is not smart enough to wipe his as^. Yea. Non-issue. A few more non-issues like that one and Obama won’t carry a single state. (last count, he has 347 electoral votes to McCain’s 190)
The fact is, TOJ, it WAS a non-issue that was trumped up by the McCain campaign – the night of the comment they issued a press statement and coordinated a conference call with a Mass. Republican who was shocked (shocked!) and offended!! Had they not swooned and grabbed for their smelling salts, no hay would have been made. Why? Non. Issue.
By USinUK
October 10, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
I am very proud of everything that happened. Reagan was trying to establish closer relations with Iran, was actually causing Iran and Israel to be working together and was doing a very smart thing to stimulate anti-Islamic factions in Iran, the very same factions that now run that country.
Oh my effing god. That beggars belief.
You actually believe that subverting the Constitution is a good thing?? You actually believe that Reagan wanted closer ties with Iran??? After they held American hostages for 444 days??? You actually believe that he was trying to “stimulate anti-Islamic factions in Iran, the very same factions that are now running that country” – they were running the country THEN. Ayatollah Khomeni ran the country from 1979 until his death 10 years later. Both the US and the (then) USSR supplied arms to BOTH Iran (the US covertly) and Iraq (overtly) to keep the Islamist revolution contained from spreading into other oil-producing nations.
As for Israel/Iran relations – considering Iran was calling for the eradication of Israel even then, relations were … shall we say … strained? Israel sold them guns for their war with Iraq only to guarantee the release of some 30,000 Jews who were living in Iran at the time.
As for the Contras … they weren’t “fighting communism” – and they sure as HE!! weren’t the “the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers” (as Uncle Ronnie called them). They were killing teachers, health care workers, nuns and innocent civilians. They were raping women and children. They were brutalizing villages. From Wiki: The Catholic Institute for International Relations summarized contra operating procedures in their 1987 human rights report: “The record of the contras in the field, as opposed to their official professions of democratic faith, is one of consistent and bloody abuse of human rights, of murder, torture, mutilation, rape, arson, destruction and kidnapping.”
There was nothing honorable about our support for the Contras, just as there was nothing honorable about our overthrow of Allende and installation of Augusto Pinochet. Our blind fear of communism led to the US propping up some of the most despotic leaders of the last century.
By Sunshine
October 10, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
USinUK—Thank you for you’re 10:55am. I could not believe TOJ’s line of thought yesterday!! I have never ever met someone who is “Proud” of our actions in the Iran-Contra Affair. More fear mongering, more fear mongering, more fear mongering! You better vote republican or the democrats will eat your babies! Oh no wait, this week its you better vote republican or you will put a BLACK Muslim terrorist in the Whitehouse! (and pssst, he still might eat your babies!)
By USinUK
October 10, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
USinUK—Thank you for you’re 10:55am. I could not believe TOJ’s line of thought yesterday!! I have never ever met someone who is “Proud” of our actions in the Iran-Contra Affair.
well, there’s always Ollie North. gah.
honestly, there’s a great word the Brits use: Gobsmacked. I was absolutely gobsmacked, at a loss for words. Shocked. I’m glad I didn’t write anything when I read that last night because I really needed to get over the ringing in my ears that someone would actually say that was something to be proud of.
and John Negroponte should have been frog-marched straight to prison. do not pass go. do not collect a book deal. And definitely do not have any more jobs in government. If you really want to shudder, read this: http://www. csmonitor. com/ 2006/0224/ dailyUpdate.html (copy, paste, delete spaces)
By Sunshine
October 10, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
John Negroponte should have been frog-marched straight to prison—You’re my hero! Amen, this is one of the scariest men on the planet! When it was (quietly)announced that he was appointed Director of National Intelligence in 2005, I couldn’t sleep for days!
By USinUK
October 10, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Sunshine -
When it was (quietly)announced that he was appointed Director of National Intelligence in 2005, I couldn’t sleep for days!
continuing proof of the American Memory Hole …