AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > September > 26 > Entry
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
What is wrong with this picture? Three young men, ages 16, 19 and 20, commit to respect themselves and the opposite sex enough that they’ll wait until marriage to have sex - and are mocked for it on national television.
When host Russell Brand of MTV’s VMA awards repeatedly hammered the Jonas Brothers, he made it that much more difficult for those watching to make the right choice. The natural temptations of dating are tough enough without pre-marital abstinence being derided as “crazy” instead of applauded as the healthiest and wisest choice.
Both youth and adults need to hear the overwhelming evidence that waiting until marriage is the wise choice. The Heritage Foundation looked at 21 studies and found that 16 documented positive results of forgoing, reducing, and delaying sexual activity. Some of the more obvious negative results of sex before marriage were greater risks of STD’s and out-of-wedlock childbearing. But the studies also found lowered grades, and lowered psychological and emotional well-being.
My own research backs this up. In nationally representative surveys of 15 to 20- year-olds for “For Young Men Only” and “For Young Women Only” — my books to help teen guys and girls understand the opposite sex — the young people themselves expressed a significant emotional impact of sex outside of marriage.
For example, although the guys admitted they were probably the ones pushing for sex, two-thirds also said that once they got it they began to doubt whether they could trust the girl again. And although the girls said they had some positive feelings after beginning the sexual relationship (such as greater feelings of closeness) 82 percent also began feeling insecure, clingy and possessive. Both responses arise directly from knowing that they are not in a committed marriage relationship.
And “waiting until you’re older” doesn’t fix it. In a thorough 2008 Rutgers study, Dr. David Popenoe confirmed earlier findings of the negative emotional results of adult cohabitation, most poignantly including a greater likelihood of divorce once the couple eventually gets married.
A 2004 Gallup poll found that 56 percent of teens believe “people should abstain from sex until marriage.” Prior to becoming jaded by the culture, teens recognize that just because the ideal is difficult doesn’t mean it shouldn’t remain the ideal.
Rebuttal
As a mother of three, I’m appalled by the extremes of the hook-up culture that surrounds me. However, if we assume that virginity until marriage is something people should aspire to, then we assume all virgins are the same.
Should a 15-year-old girl have a sex life? Most of us would give a resounding “no.” Should a responsible single professional have a sex life? Given that the average age of marriage in this country is around 26 for men and 25 for women, I’d say that someone old enough to vote, drink, rent a car and buy a house is old enough to determine if remaining a virgin fits in with graduate school, career goals and other aspirations.
There is nothing “crazy” about choosing to stay chaste, and VMA awards host Russell Brand is an opportunistic spotlight grabber. Yet let’s not pretend that there isn’t some PR calculation on the part of Team Jonas as well here (their handlers, if not the boys themselves). One hopes the group is prepared for public scrutiny of their behavior, especially if they fall off the virginity wagon. Or should I say when they fall off; even those enamored of the concept of promise rings concede that statistically such programs simply delay sexual activity for an additional 18 months.
Now a year and a half of additional chastity is nothing to sneeze at—it buys a kid a lot of growing-up time. What it doesn’t seem to buy virginity-pledge kids, though, is personal responsibility. Even those Heritage Foundation folks Shaunti cites admit that “pledges are less likely to use contraception at initial intercourse.” So young people who have publicly renounced premarital sex by signing a pledge and putting on a ring are less likely to use birth control when they finally succumb to their hormones? Yeah, that sounds right.
Promoting self-awareness and self-protection isn’t the same as advocating promiscuity. On the other hand, an abstinence-only plan for all single people isn’t merely an unrealistic expectation; it gives strength to policies that ban access to birth control information and services for those most in need of them.
Now that’s crazy.
.JPG)
Services »
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By LMCLAO!
September 26, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
HAHAHAHAHA! Stop it! OMG, we’ve solved all the world’s problems, so let’s go back to obssessing over other people’s hoo has. What could BE more fun? HAHAHA! TOOOOOOO funny!
By Gale
September 26, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
I leave obsessing over teen sex to the parents of said teens.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
Gale, from yesterday, the cover 3 “gifted” classes and one main stream class a day, and maybe a special. By the way I hate that word gifted! It is so elitist. But my kids are getting what I consider an acceptable education becuase they fall into this category. I really, really don’t like the administartion. Teachers are fine. My son is lucky enough to have a published PHD teaching him Social Studies. I am sure he has an OBAMA sticker on his car, but he doesn’t bring it into the classroom, like my son will have to face once he gets into college.
On topic, George Michael put it best, “sex is natural sex is fun, sex is best when it’s one on one”.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
With an occasional 2 on 1 thrown in for spice! :-)!!!!!!
By Wills
September 26, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t the sane answer be for people to make their own decisions on when and whether to start their sex lives (a decision in which what their family background will obviously have an impact) and then keep that decision PRIVATE? What business is it of anyone else?
It’s not virginity but the public declaration of it (given all the opportunities for social coercion and just plain deceit) that is ridiculous and rightly drew Russell Brand’s satire. What next, chastity belts?
By Gale
September 26, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
2 on 1 always sounds like fun until I think too hard about managing it. Then it just sounds complicated.
“Gifted” students usually get enough teacher attention. “Challenged” students usually get enough attention. The ones in between get left to fend for themselves as long as they don’t make waves. How hard it is to be a student who is bright, but not bright enough for the special attention.
Somehow, I think some of the lurkers will have to come out if this topic is to get any attention. I think most of us, since I have been watching, have voiced opinion on this and mostly, we don’t care. Virginity is overrated.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
of course they should aspire to, but they should also be given the understanding of all facets involved; not just abstinence-only.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Sex should be a crime until your say, 23 or married. Open franchises were offenders go (like DUI SCHOOL) to get educated about sex. I will teach the girls 18-23 :-)! (just kiddin!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
of course they should aspire to, but they should also be given the understanding of all facets involved; not just abstinence-only.
Oh, oldest of 8th graders, who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it! (DUMBASS!)
By GOB
September 26, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
And who do you think pays for welfare and healthcare for the baby that is born when a parent doesnt teach their child at home?
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
Oh, oldest of 8th graders, who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who.
I would not expect you to provide squat; just like on the blog.
Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
Just so you can sit around playing xbox high while your live in girlfriend takes care of your kids. You are part of the problem: another parent that teaches their kid hate and disrespect. You are a dropout with a child. Sad.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
Guy, the personal attacks are wearing thin.
By Mara
September 26, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
What a rediculous topic. The problems Shaunti associates with premarital sex are more likely to be issues related to maturity, not to marital status.
Her examples are all pulled from the under-21 set, so I have to question her belief that regardless of age, regardless of maturity, regardless of ones self-esteem and confidence, regardless of a couples committment to each other…unless the government documents that committment, your relationship is dooooooooomed.
I do think that people should hold off until they’re mature enough to handle the physical and emotional results of intercourse, regardless of marital status. I mean, you can get married in Alabama at he age of 14 (as long as your folks agree). That doesn’t mean you’re ready for sex. But according to Shaunti once the government’s been notified and the preacher’s paid, everything will be hunky-dory.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
And who do you think pays for welfare and healthcare for the baby that is born when a parent doesnt teach their child at home?
Clueless..fill me oh wise one. Obama will have them all cut out of thier mothers 2-9 months after conception.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
We put too much emphasis on sex and virginity. The relationship problems are because immature people (teens) place too much emphasis on something that shouldn’t mean anything at their age. Sure, it can be intimate and relationship fulfilling. But I say protect them and let those hormones fly without the burden of a relationship. (Note: I do not have children!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
Oh eldest 8th grader, you write exactly how I would expect someone with more time in grade school that most tenured teachers! Excellent points, as usual! Nice use of the semi-colon! I think they teach that is 9th grade, so I forgive you. Oh,I see you even attempted to used a full colon! You are such an English wizard!
So, PLEASE (DUMBASS)!!! STFU! Thanks in advance for your compliance!
By Original Rick
September 26, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
We can emphasize staying chaste as much as is possible but it finally up to the person. My daughter is 20, as junior at UGA, has been with her boyfriend for 6 years, and they both are abstaining. We are proud of them.
However, in a talk I had with her a few years ago, I emphasized that no matter her choices, she was our loved one, and her mother and I supported her, no matter what.
I recall my first time: I was 17, stupid and I immediately wanted to do it again. It was GREAT! I was smart enough, tho, to have protection.
I have realized the big problem with teens and their hormones is what I refer to as the three F’s: on a Saturday night, f*ing is fun and it is free. That is why I am for universal availability of birth control.
We need to realize it is going to happen!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
So you are all about putting condums in the nurses office in grade school? Middle School? High School? Oh and nurse should give young girls birth control pills along with their RIDLIN?
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
*“your kids” should be “her kids” *
Ahhh. So, they are her kids that you are smoking pot around. Gotcha- that is much better!
Oh,I see you even attempted to used a full colon!
Nope. You are the only full colon here.
Try spell checking your posts before you sling that crap. Too much to ask from a little dead-beat-dad-pothead? Thought so.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Good point, Gandalf. It is a good idea to have condoms in grade school, available for the asking. But they should be high quality and not subject to breaking. And anyone picking one up should have to demonstrate they know how to use it. There should be no judgement from the provider of the condom. But birth control pills… no. These are drugs and drugs should require a doctor. As long as the pill has been available, we still have long term effect questions about these drugs. Children at puberty have hormonal influences that may have not been adequately tested with these drugs since they are really intended for mature women. No, I don’t want the school handing out drugs.
The problem is we put too much emphasis on sex and pairing up at a young age. Why should teens begin dating at 13, 14? It is too young to pair up. But eveolution being slow, their hormones are telling them to have sex.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Disrespect? Is that the same as question authority? Because I do in fact teach that, even that the question me
…that ?!?!the?!?! question me…
Idiot.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
Gale,
The problem is we put too much emphasis on sex and pairing up at a young age. Why should teens begin dating at 13, 14? It is too young to pair up. But evolution being slow, their hormones are telling them to have sex.
I agree, sort of.
I think the emphasis they get is 90% from movies/tv and is the wrong type of info. There needs to be more of an emphasis on sex by the parents than the outside world/media, but that takes a real relationship with our kids.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, I agree about tv and movies giving them ideas. I really hate the kid programming that shows kids in bands. But the reaality is they are surrounded by it. How many cartoon characters get boyfriends/girlfriends. Why? When a three year old is all excited about Hannah Montana, something is wrong. When they start that young, of course they will want to try all the grownup fun at an early age. You are completely right about parent-child relationship. The tv does not make a good parent.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Gale,
I think that the main hold-up is that parents do not want to think about their kids as sexual beings and it freaks them out, or they are just plain lazy.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Oh eldest of 8th graders, thank so much for pointing out that I forgot a y! It so kind for someone with the learning disablities you have shown us here over time to point out my flaws. the difference between you and I is that I point out known flaws that you have, you merely project your anger at your own pot-head, dead-beat father onto me. Sorry about your upbringing, but that explains the amount of time you spent in grade school!
PARENTS: KEEP YOUR KIDS OFF POT! :-)
AS for you seeing children as sexual beings, your just sick! I asked you nicely you perverted pot smoking parented eldest of 8th graders, perhaps I need to ask again? STFU you silly thinker of children as a sexual beings ULTRA-(DUMBASS!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Gale, I think Jokeson is a (DUMBASS)!
By Archie
September 26, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
My answer to the topic question is yes but if you fall short of that goal don’t hurt yourself. In other words protect yourself. Andrea takes the topic off in a different direction because the question is not if a grown person can have premarital sex but the question is should people try to remain virgins until marriage and my answer is yes for the same reasons that she gave in her second paragraph. If you’re old enough to drink,vote, etc then you can stay a virgin if you want to and nobody should bash you for that choice. The word aspire is in the question not the word mandatory. This topic is a non-argument the way it’s phrased. If the question was are people wrong for having sex out of wedlock then you have an argument but the question asks about a personal choice. Andrea is reaching for an argument with her next to last statement about giving strength to policies that ban birth control information. People can get birth control information, I mean there’s no cure for carelessness or stupidity.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Good Stuff Archie! Thanks!
By Sunshine
September 26, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Someone get GTG a muzzle and a padded room, gezzzz!
JokesOn, I think you are right, the talk about birds and bees needs to be an open and frank area of communication way before puberty. They need to know these things aren’t “gross”. Now every kid will snicker now and then but if you take the time and talk to them when a problem/situation arises hopefully they will come to the parent to get advice or help. Springing the “Sex Talk” on them at 14-15 is just too late to make an impact.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
It so kind for someone with the learning disablities you have shown us here over time to point out my flaws. (Do you mean disabilities?)
I remember your child/daughter (you live in west Virginia by chance? Have a sister/daughter is quite sick) coming on here and talking about your pot habit and gaming all the time. Sounds like you should get back on the meds and off the pot.
As for kids not being sexual beings: Thank you for exhibiting exactly what I was talking about. Adults having kids who are still kids themselves and cannot have an adult discussion about actual sexuality.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Gale if we can stop the nurses from giving out BC pills, can we stop them from giving out RIDLIN as well? Now that you put it so concisely, I concur we need condums in Middle and High Schools, not on the bandwagon for grade school just yet, but I am learning.
Oh, Good Morning SUNSHINE! xxoo to you too! Glad you’re sticking up for your buddy, that eldest of all 8th graders! Have a great weeekend!
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Hello, everybody. Just checking in.
Seems another subject that is out of touch, considering what is going on with the economy and the availability of gasoline.
This is one of those subjects that is controversial because of the fact that many people want to take the example of bad parenting and apply that standard to all the kids in school.
Yes, kids are going to have sex if they are not taught why they shouldn’t. Back in the 60s when I was in school, there were always the girls that were known for being easy and there were always the guys that were ready to jump in the sack with anything with a vagina. I’m sure that has always been the case.
But all kids aren’t like that and to tell the kids all the problems of having sex at a young age and then supply them with birth control because “they are going to do it anyway” is a sure way to let your kids know that you don’t trust them and you don’t think that they have the self control to say no.
But Andrea actually said something that made sense. Most people do not get married until their late 20s and to expect an adult to refrain from sex until marriage is simply unrealistic.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
I’m not saying all kids will or even want to have sex in their teens. What is important is that they know there is nothing wrong or icky about it, and that there are definite consequenses to unprotected sex. In the 60 and 70s, we opened Pandora’s box. We, as a generation, ignored the consequenses. Now we know better. A kid needs all the information to feel good about saying no. He/she has to know it is a rational, considered decision, not just what he/she is supposed to do because someone in authority said so. Then, when the peer group teases, the barbs won’t stick.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Oh, eldest of 8th graders, thanks for raising the bar again. Some poster (maybe you in disguise?) alleges I smoke pot and game. How very intelligent and mature of you to assume that to be true. After all, everything you read on the Internet is factual! It has to be true or the Internet police will come get you. Just another fact the reiterate my contention that you are indeed a (DUMBASS)!
There is a group called MBLA that you could join, I hear they would like guys like you in their organization. I can’t join because, well, I would get the membership list and hunt each one down. They don’t want that.
I think you owe the state of West Virginia an apology. At least the people of that great state had the (balls) to leave the Virginians when they seceded from the Union of the USA. Something I am sure you ancestors would find appalling.
Now for a third time I ask you nicely, STFU you redneck, confederate flag waving MBLA wanna be, (DUMBASS)! and please go away! You sound more mentally challenged in every post! Go play in traffic, at least you have the UGA game to watch this weekend! GO DAWGS! (sorry if I insulted any Dawg fans by associating JOKEON with UGA. He isn’t an ALUMNI, I just know how (DUMBASS)!es like him love to watch football!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
TOJ, excellent post! Thanks!
By Mara
September 26, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Archie - If the question was are people wrong for having sex out of wedlock then you have an argument but the question asks about a personal choice.
Hear, hear!!
what I wonder about is why they chose to use “aspire” as they did. Not only does it imply a morality/immorality choice, it also makes for awkward reading because it seems to say that the goal is to acheive virginity not to maintain that state until marriage. Personally, I achieved virginity before I was even born so I never “aspired” to it.
IMO, it should have been phrased “Should people aspire to REMAIN virgin until marriage”.
Have a great weekend.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Good point all Gale! Thank You! Nothing wrong with waiting a little. It’s still good even 30 years after high school! But I like that George Michael line ” sex in natural, sex is fun, sex is best when it one on one!” He’s such a f*, but can sing his butt off!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Some poster (maybe you in disguise?) alleges I smoke pot and game. How very intelligent and mature of you to assume that to be true.
Your sister came on the board and said differently, then you ran away. LOL
Now go away and let the adults talk.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Well, I think I have had all I can take of this silly topic for this week. Everyone have a good weekend.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
8th Grader Squared, I do let the adults talk (DUMBASS)! Now STFU please and go play with your Ken doll, and put some clothes on him for Christ’s sake!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
8th Grader Squared, I do let the adults talk (DUMBASS)!
Well, thanks for unintentionally acknowledging that you are not one of the adults.
Now go look at the sears catalog lingerie section some more while the adults talk. And for gods sake, stop wearing your mom’s lingerie!
By Archie
September 26, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
I don’t think you should cheer me on too much Gandalf because I didn’t wait until marriage to have sex but as a christian I should have. My initial answer is based on my religious teaching but my secular answer is that grown folk can do whatever they want. I think people who want to remain virgins should do that and not be picked on because of that choice but I will say that I know some people over 40 who have never been married and I know they aren’t virgins. Andrea does not say no to the topic question but she changes the argument into a debate about abstinence-only and that’s something slightly different than what was asked. This topic is hard to debate unless you change the topic question.
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Gale
Each kid is different and I believe that kids having sex at an early age is very harmful, even with protection. There is a lot of psychological baggage with sex, particularly with very young participants. Girls mature much faster than boys so they usually end up having sex with older and sometime much older boys. So by bringing sex into the mix, it denies many girls that innocent, wonderful puppy love that is so great for young teens.
Let them be kids. Let girls be with guys that are their age that might not be as prone to pressure the younger girls into having sex. Let kids learn to respect each other and not just respect what is between their respective legs.
It isn’t about morals as it is about keeping a kid’s life sweet and simple as long as possible.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Now STFU please and go play with your Ken doll, and put some clothes on him for Christ’s sake!
It is my voodoo doll. Ken looks just like you, seeing as neither of you have any balls;) Here comes a stab to your left side….watch-out.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Now come on Tenured 8th grader! Be honest! You know that is not true! Once again you are projecting your weaknesses onto me. I have balls and no Ken doll, you have Ken Doll and …well, please STFU and let the grown ups discuss this weeks issue. Now behave like a good 8th grader and be seen and not heard! (DUMBASS)! (I tried, but he really is such a (DUMBASS)! I can’t resist pointing that out!)
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
It isn’t about morals as it is about keeping a kid’s life sweet and simple as long as possible.
I agree, but not to an unnatural extreme. Therapists everywhere will tell you that kids are sexual beings very early on. Denying that is detrimental to their well being and ability to make their own decisions based on real info.
I have met a lot of adults that have had a lot of sex, yet know very little about it.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
GTG,
Stealing my quips as your own? I guess you ran out of wit when you lit that last blunt. If you had balls you would try to join the discussion instead of being a little twerp showing your stoner friends “Look at what i just told these people on the blog! I am so cool.” LOL
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
JOKESON? Like yourself? But truthfully, does lots of sex include that which you do with no one else in the room? We all know you need a therapist. Which is the same as witch doctor, or shaman, to the poor godless people of much of modern society. have met a lot of adults that have had a lot of sex, yet know very little about it.That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you utter, and that is saying a lot!
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry. I’m not going to encourage 12-13 year olds to have sex just because someone says they are sexual beings.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
Eldest of 8th graders! Tell me how did it feel to able to drive and still be in middle school? Was that when you found out what a true (DUMBASS)! you were!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
TOJ! Thanks!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
Eldest of 8th Graders! When you go to MBLA meetings do they let you and your Ken doll play 8th grade? (DUMBASS)! pervert!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry. I’m not going to encourage 12-13 year olds to have sex just because someone says they are sexual beings.
Where did anyone say encourage?
Can you once not add info to a discussion (where was “encourage” used?) and instead reply to what is actually there? You treat them age appropriate. That works both ways, meaning you do not try to keep them in never-never land beyond what is natural.
GTG,
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you utter
Yet, it applies to you. You have shown little understanding of humans, much less human sexuality.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
GTG,
Tell me how did it feel to able to drive and still be in middle school?
You are still too stupid to do the math.
By Phyllis
September 26, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Yes. Especially women should be virgins until they are married, and then dispense only the minimal amount of sex possible to secure the husbands present and future assets. Train him, leash him, break his spirit. Get diamonds and white gold. Get a nice car and a house he can’t afford. Drive away his friends you don’t like. Change his diet. Decide what he likes to do on the weekend and then tell him. Throw away his wardrobe and buy only what you want to see him wear. If he rebels on any command, threaten to never give him sex again. Threaten to never let him see his children again. Make him sleep on the sofa at least once a week to keep him in line. Get everything in your name. If he finds a friendly woman to talk to who does not treat him like a piece of property and a slave, slash her tires and take a whole year of sex away from him. Real women never give it away for free.
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Where did anyone say encourage?
We are talking about adolescents and sex. If you are not discouraging, you are encouraging.
Can you once not add info to a discussion (where was “encourage” used?) and instead reply to what is actually there?
Can you once reply to a response without having a chip on your shoulder the size of a Marta Bus? Judging from today’s posts: apparently not.
That works both ways, meaning you do not try to keep them in never-never land beyond what is natural.
Actually never-never land is exactly where 12-13 year olds need to be. They will have their whole lives to be “sexual beings. Let them be kids. Let them hold hands. Let them dare to kiss. Personally, I’m not concerned with how soon they become proficient at sex. I think it is nice that they know little about it. What is considered “natural” in your circles is considered bad behavior in mine.
Take a field trip down to the Fulton County Health Department on an average day. You will find plenty of 12-13 year olds that know all about sex. But of course they ARE at the health department, so you might want to consider that teaching them to wait for a few years could be considered good parenting.
By USinUK
September 28, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
hey you - I didn’t read through last week’s posts … how is your girlfriend? I hope she’s on the mend. :-)
with everything going on in the world rght now (especially with the federal bailout potentially adding another 7-10k of debt to every household), I can’t BELIEVE that they picked abstinence as this week’s topic.
oh, wait. it was Shaunti’s turn for the kickoff, so of course they did. (and Russell Brand is a tw*t - we’re just glad to be rid of him here - almost as glad as we are to be rid of Posh and Becks - you can have all 3 of them - hell, we’ll throw Lilly Allen in for good measure)
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
UsinnerU
Thanks for your concern, sweety. Unfortunately, she died Monday night. Her family had a Memorial Service Tuesday night for her American Friends and then they all headed back to the Ukraine to bury her on Wednesday. Most of her family now lives in Greece, but the family cemetery is in the Ukraine. I just couldn’t go, because of a combination of work and simply can’t afford the trip.
I have a friend that has a small plane and a house on St. Simons so we headed down there Wednesday morning and i got back yesterday afternoon. I started drinking in the plane and sobered up on Thursday morning. Spent Thursday in a small motorboat, just cruising around the island. It helped, but I am still pretty tore up about it all.
Yesterday, i realized that I don’t know anything about the wreck, other than what her mom had told me and now, she is in Europe. I know that it was a White woman in a black Escalade that was owned by a church in Florida. Her Mom had said that she was denied bond on Monday, but her brother (who speaks a little better English) told me Tuesday night that she had been released on bond, so I don’t know what is going on.
That’s about it. This hurts worse than my divorce which I thought was as bad as it gets. NEVER think anything is as bad as it gets. There is always something worse.
Again, thanks for your concern. I kind-of want to drop it from the blog and I’m sure you can understand why. If I hear anything about the woman that hit her, I’ll tell you.
Have a good Sunday. I wanted to be alone, but my friends are not going to have any of that so I am waiting to be picked up to go to a Falcon watching party.
Talk to you soon,
Jack
By Ironman Carmichael
September 28, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
No one seems to remember the not-all-that-long-ago custom of taking an adolescent boy, usually on his 16th birthday, to a brothel to get him “indoctrinated.” The rationale was that the boy then would “know what to do on his wedding night.” This practice fell out of fashion when it became obvious that kids were adept at getting their own on-the-job training (so to speak).
But so many posts here are themselves so adolescent (why are homophobes so eager to publicize MBLA; you’d think they were getting kickbacks) that I don’t think an adult discussion of the subject matter is possible any longer. Go back to your playpens and have Mom turn on “Sesame Street” for you (or is Ernie and Bert’s obvious homosexual relationship too much for you to handle?).
By USinUK
September 28, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
omg - I’m so very sorry for your loss - know that you’re in my thoughts (as is her family)
By JokesOn
September 28, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
We are talking about adolescents and sex. If you are not discouraging, you are encouraging.
More (incorrect) binary thinking for us? How about a unbiased neutral factual basis as an alternative?
Is that something you can acknowledge and discuss? If so, great; but if not, why bother joining the discussion?
Can you once reply to a response without having a chip on your shoulder the size of a Marta Bus? Judging from today’s posts: apparently not. If you are talking about “poke the troll day,” does he really serve any other purpose other than poke? As for my response: meh, not harsh at all.
Actually never-never land is exactly where 12-13 year olds need to be. You know that many 13yos start their cycle that year. So great to know that you would have her freak out not knowing what is happening to her. That is just great.
But of course they ARE at the health department, so you might want to consider that teaching them to wait for a few years could be considered good parenting.
Once again, who is promoting them to be sexually active? (don’t tel me, back to binary)
Not much you can add to this discussion. In your view anything but “don’t have sex until marriage” and “don’t ask any questions either” is encouraging sexual activity.
I hope you do not have sex, seeing as you are not married. “Do as I say and not as I do” is all you have to add to your notions to bring the 50s full circle…
By Alexandrea
September 28, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
it is good if u wait until u are marryed so u like dont git deseases. i am wait until i am marryed yeah it seems forever but it is worth it.
By Alexandrea
September 28, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
it is good if u wait until u are marryed so u like dont git deseases. i am wait until i am marryed yeah it seems forever but it is worth it.
By RF
September 28, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Well, what a topic considering all that’s going on the world!!
TOJ- so, so very sorry for your loss. No matter how bad you think life has been, sudden, unexpected loss is always worse. Been there.
USinUK- you bring up an interesting point about the average marriage age. In the South, the belles have traditionally married right out of high school or college, so it’s easier for us to preach….err, I mean teach abstinence and expect it to happen. That’s changing as more young people wait to start careers, etc. before marrying.
I’d like to believe my sons will wait, but I’m realistic enough to know there is an even chance they won’t. I’m teaching them abstinence along with a good dose of reality. For me it’s about educating them fully about all the issues. As a parent, I’m trying my best to do that. I’m also not dousing them in guilt about it. The problem is that kids feel those urges long before they’re mature enough to think rationally. I want my boys to wait, but I refuse to make them feel guilty about wanting it. I think that’s where many abstinence programs fall short. They try to make kids feel guilty about what is a very natural desire. And, as a high school teacher, I see every single day how the hormones are attacking. Even the strongest can’t always fight it.
Realistically, I’m teaching them that it’s better to wait, but I fully intend to make sure they’re well versed in protection methods and willing to talk to potential partners beforehand. I live by the motto “life is what happens while you’re planning for something else” and I want my boys to know the whole story. They’re boys, and as Robin Williams said, “God gave man a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time.” I’ve noticed in recent years that girls are much bolder and agressive publicly than they have ever been. I’m hoping that my boys can get through all the teenage pressures with their morals intact, but if not I don’t want to have to deal with a lifelong disease or becoming a teenage parent.
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
UsinnerU
Thanks. Good to have you back.
RF
Thanks for the thoughts. It’s been a rough week.
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
RF
I don’t expect kids to wait until they are married to have sex. I sure didn’t.
What I have a problem with is this trend to accept that 12-13 year olds are going to be having sex. Kids are enormously susceptible to what we tell them. If we tell every child all about birth control, then I believe that they will assume that we expect them to have sex. Yes, some children are sexually active at 12-13, but once again, we are teaching all children like they all have bad parents.
I would just like for folks to just give them a couple of years to be in puppy love before they are veterans. Let teachers spot problems and get those really young kids the proper guidance, but But don’t tell 12-13 year olds that it is perfectly natural for them to be having sex. It isn’t. Sex at very early ages usually carry a huge amount of baggage with it.
By RF
September 28, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
TOJ- it’s hard to decide when to tell a child the facts. My 12 yr. old isn’t thinking that way yet, but he has a friend down the street who I overheard talking about wanting to see some girl naked. That prompted a discussion about appropriate attitudes towards women in MY house!! I worry because I know there are plenty of kids out there who aren’t getting the instruction at home and my son may just come across a uhm…less restrictive girl, you know? I can tell you, as a teacher and parent of a 12 yr. old that they do need to hear about it at 12-13. I read a medical study in recent years that talked about the average age for entering puberty and that it’s beginning at younger ages than it used to. I wonder how many parent are aware of that and addressing issues that come up. The real question here should be, How do we get parents to begin an ongoing dialogue with their kids about sex?
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
RF -
USinUK- you bring up an interesting point about the average marriage age. In the South, the belles have traditionally married right out of high school or college, so it’s easier for us to preach….err, I mean teach abstinence and expect it to happen. That’s changing as more young people wait to start careers, etc. before marrying.
thanks for the attribution, but that wasn’t me. although, I do agree with the sentiment (especially since I was one of those whose first marriage took place when I was closer to 40 than to 30).
TOJ -
What I have a problem with is this trend to accept that 12-13 year olds are going to be having sex.
I think we all agree that 12-13 year olds are nowhere NEAR ready to have sex. however, they ARE going through earth-shattering hormonal changes (onset of menstruation, hair sprouting in weird places, etc). and, most importantly, they will be having sex SOME DAY. yes, we all want them to put it off until they’re emotionally ready - but, regardless of when it happens, it is vital that they have all the facts on how to prevent pregnancy and diseases.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
RF
You are dead on about all kids being different. I wasn’t worried about my son. He thought girls were pretty repugnant until he was about 15. Then it was like a light switch. It seemed like over night he was talking about girls.
My little girl was a different story. She went boy-crazy at about the age of 9. But it was boy-bands and Disney TV stars. Fortunately, she looked like she was 9 years old until she was 15. Her boyfriends were all shy little guys from either church or the neighborhood. The older thug-like guys left her alone.
Then in just a few months, my skinny little girl blossomed. At that point, it became a huge problem keeping much older guys away from her. But even then, she was pretty smart about who she wanted to be with.
We were fortunate. We had a walking, talking example of what could happen. My wife had a niece that looked like she was 21 when she was 12. Her name was Jessie. Her Mom sure didn’t help by letting her get a tramp stamp at the age of 12. She had her first child at the age of 13. By the time she was 15, she was regularly being beaten up by the much older boys that her mother had been letting her date. Her second child came when she was 16 and no one had any idea who the Baby-Daddy was. I don’t know what has happened to Jessie, but I guess she would be 23-24, by now. She now has an 11 year old and a 8 year old, IF she hasn’t had any more kids.
Our kids were easy. But a lot of that came from knowing our kids. They always knew that we were not the enemy. But I didn’t want my very young kids to be told all the gory details about sex because of kids like Jessie. They got enough of that on TV.
I can’t condemn anyone for telling their kids early, as long as they aren’t telling them that it is perfectly natural that they are having sex as soon as puberty hits. It may be biologically natural, but societal reality says that nothing could be more damaging to a kid’s future.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this
How did we go from making sure young teens and pre-teens understand about sex to “encouraging” them to have sex? Why would they make the connection that instruction means they should try something? It would be great if children could be children a bit longer. It ain’t gonna happen as long as they have access to TV, as long as even children’s programs show children in adult behavior and adult clothing. There is no closing the lid on Pandora’s box. The only thing we can do is pay close attention to what they see and do and explain when things vere into adult territory. Conversely, we need to pay more attention to the joys of childhood so they are not so eager to leave it. I see far too many adult sponsered activities for young children that are just too old for the kids involved. Obviously, parents are encouraging more adult behaviors.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 29, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Ironman Carmichael did you take your son to the cathouse? What does that add to the discussion? NOTHING. Thank you! Now crawl back into your hole and STFU Please! MBLA and homophobia? Are you suggesting that gay men are pediphiles? I wasn’t. Just that Jackoff was wierd to look at children as sexual beings. Maybe you do too
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang.
even Nicholas Kristof thinks McCain is too hot-headed to be CiC:
http:// www. nytimes. com/ 2008/09/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
But it’s equally clear that in recent years Mr. McCain has become impish cubed — impulsive, impetuous and impatient — and those are perilous qualities in a commander in chief.
-snip-
Judging from Mr. McCain’s own positions, he might well revive a cold war with Russia and could start a hot war with Iran or North Korea. In those three hot spots, Mr. McCain could constitute a dangerous gamble for this country
-snip-
Mr. McCain’s lead-with-the-chin approach to Russia reflects the same pugnacity that resulted in obscenity-laced dust-ups with fellow Republican senators, but it’s less endearing when the risk is nuclear war.
-snip-
All in all, it’s astonishing that Mr. McCain seems determined to return to Mr. Bush’s first-term policies that have been utterly discredited even within the administration. Judging from Mr. McCain’s own positions, on foreign policy he could well end up more Bush than Bush.
dang. when folks on your own side of the aisle think you’re a bit to eager to fight, that’s saying something …
By JokesOn
September 29, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
Gale,
How did we go from making sure young teens and pre-teens understand about sex to “encouraging” them to have sex? Why would they make the connection that instruction means they should try something?
I agree. It is a straw-man tactic to stop any discussion.
There is nothing encouraging about factually teaching what technically happens when humans have sex coupled with how humans can prevent stds and pregnancy.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
Gandalf, get over it. Expecting young teens to be sexual beings because hormonal activity is at a raging peak, is not pediphilic. Nobody suggested it except you. I find the idea of two early or pre-teens haveing sex (with one another, not someone older) to be absurd. I think it happens in the same way lots of unacceptable behaviours happen. We/they get into situations they should not be in in the first place. Why do we encourage school dances at the 7th and 8th grade level?
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Gale -
We/they get into situations they should not be in in the first place. Why do we encourage school dances at the 7th and 8th grade level?
it’s not the school dances that get kids into trouble. it’s the UNchaperoned events (especially if they’re on their own after school). it’s the kids who are dropped off at the mall for a few unsupervised hours … it’s the kids who have the computer in their rooms without parental supervision of what the kids are doing/who they’re talking to …
By lovelyliz
September 29, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
Only if unlike the studies on this matter show, they don’t engage in risky sexual behavior anyway. Otherwise, what’s the point?
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Gale
It’s just a different way of parenting. Telling your kids that it is wrong to have sex when they are very young, and then telling them what to do when they have sex when they are very young is sending conflicting messages. If you tell them that something is wrong, they will believe you. Then you tell them what to do when they do that wrong thing is saying that you really don’t trust them.
USinUK
Puberty is hell. Mark Twain said that all 13 year olds should be put in a barrel, the top nailed on and a hole cut in the side to feed them. Then when they turn 16, the hole should be covered up. Hr wrote that in 1890.
Our kids were very aware of birth control before they started having sex. As I told RF, we knew our kids. But we didn’t tell them at puberty. My wife was right there when my daughter started her cycle. They were never left alone on anything, but we made the decisions about when to tell them what.
Shouldn’t that be the way it is? Shouldn’t parents raise their children?
GTG
As soon as my son started paying attention to girls, I wanted to take him to a brothel. Clear his head, give him confidence, let him understand that it is not the end all-be all to life on earth. Of course his mother would have none of it. And so it goes.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I saw a little of that temper in the debate. I’m not crazy about that, but our alternative is a guy who has never made a stand in his life. He dared to stand up in South Chicago and be a community organizer? Not exactly a bold stance. He has never voted against his own party.
He folded on public financing. He folded on his relationship with his church. He appears to be a Chicago Politician who’s only constant is his price tag.
So what do we do? We either have a hot-head or a wimp.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Puberty is hell. Mark Twain said that all 13 year olds should be put in a barrel, the top nailed on and a hole cut in the side to feed them. Then when they turn 16, the hole should be covered up. Hr wrote that in 1890.
now, that made me laugh. me, I’m all for bording school when they hit 12. single-gender bording school. in the Alps.
Shouldn’t that be the way it is? Shouldn’t parents raise their children?
yes, parents should raise their children. too many don’t, though - that’s the problem. you cited the 13-year-olds at the Fulton clinic - where are the parents there? but it isn’t just the poor - a lot of wealthier parents have their heads in the sand regarding their kids’ access to sex, drugs and booze -
bottom line: pre-marital sex and unplanned pregnancies are not just because parents aren’t paying attention or teaching kids the facts - kids need the message early and often to respect themselves, to take care of themselves and, if they are going to have sex, for god’s sake, be safe! right now, you have a lot of kids taking pledges to wait until marriage, then having sex 18 months later without protecting themselves because if they plan it, then it’s really-really wrong.
-me, banging my head against the desk-
frankly, this is a stupid topic that we’ve discussed to death.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Maybe I still want to believe in free love. I think the problem is that kids, especially girls, get the notion that sex=love. I think kids need to understand that is frequently not the case until they are mature. It takes years before we understand that what is happening now in our life may not be there next year; or even next week. If I explain to a 17 year old that sex can and should be something special between two people who are committed to one another, that teen will likely say and believe that he/she is committed and deeply in love. They will not remember that just last week it was someone else they were deeply committed to. I would rather the teen think of sex as something fun without lasting commitment until much later, and take appropriate precaustions. But ok, that is my personal fantasyland.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
He folded on public financing.
explain to me why it’s a bad thing that he’s not taking tax dollars to fund his campaign. me, I have no problem with it.
He dared to stand up in South Chicago and be a community organizer?
explain to me why working in your community for a couple of years is a bad thing. explain to me why get-out-the-vote campaigns are a bad thing. explain to me why helping the poor and the elderly is a bad thing. these are all qualities I WANT in my president.
He folded on his relationship with his church.
explain to me why this is a bad thing. better yet, explain to me how this is any different from Sarah Palin leaving her pentacostal church (where they host anti-semites and people who believe in casting out witchcraft) for a more mainstream church.
We either have a hot-head or a wimp.
if you want to define “wimp” as someone who believes in diplomacy and deliberation and who does NOT practice the strategy of “ready. fire. aim” at each and every problem, then yes, please, sign me up for the wimp. every. flipping. time.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
TOJ, we dumped the good candidates.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Gale
*I find the idea of two early or pre-teens haveing sex (with one another, not someone older) to be absurd. *
And that’s the problem. Pregnant 13 year old girls almost never get that way because of 13 year old boys. Older boys can be much more predatory on very young girls and the results are often pregnancy.
I have no problem with 7-8th grade dances as long as they are chaperoned and closely watched IF and only if older kids are kept away.
This is the problem that I always have here. I wanted to raise my own kids. I was the parent that the teachers dreaded seeing. And the reason for that is that I knew what my kids were being told because we always talked openly to our kids.
My daughter once told me that she was taught in school that a person should never fear or judge anyone by the way they look. Sounds wonderful, doesn’t it?
The problem is simple. If a thug wants to look like a thug, I want to respect his wants and needs. I am going to avoid him and I want my kids to avoid him. I had a pretty vocal argument with the teacher about that one, but thanks to a very wise principal, she finally saw the light.
But the bottom line is that it is my responsibility to teach them about life. People don’t look at the mass murderer’s 4th grade teacher. They look at the parents.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m afraid that boarding school made a lot of sense when the kids were teenagers. We couldn’t afford it so it never happened.
It is another one of God’s little jokes that these wonderful little creatures that look at you with those trusting eyes and who love you so unconditionally become these THINGS. These teenagers. I’m afraid that locking them up quickly becomes an almost reasonable solution to dealing with them.
While my son was not sexually active at an early age, he was an expert at all the other maladies that plague teenagers. He was also incredibly smart which was even worse. At one point, we were looking at military school because he had started acting out in the 9th grade. But instead, we sent him to live with his grandparents for a couple of months during the summer. Up at 5AM to work on the farm was all he needed.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Pregnant 13 year old girls almost never get that way because of 13 year old boys. Older boys can be much more predatory on very young girls and the results are often pregnancy.
VERY well said. and very, very true.
But the bottom line is that it is my responsibility to teach them about life. People don’t look at the mass murderer’s 4th grade teacher. They look at the parents.
as well they should. the 4th grade teacher gets your kid for a few hours a day for 5 days of the week for 9 months of the year. parents are the constant (not teachers, not scout leaders, not even friends) - they’re there from Day 0 until the kid goes out into the world. they should be held to account.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
It is another one of God’s little jokes that these wonderful little creatures that look at you with those trusting eyes and who love you so unconditionally become these THINGS. These teenagers. I’m afraid that locking them up quickly becomes an almost reasonable solution to dealing with them.
for me, it starts when they turn 7 and become precocious and think they know it all. good god almighty, it makes me want to give them a stack of dry-cleaning bags and tell them to go play.
But instead, we sent him to live with his grandparents for a couple of months during the summer. Up at 5AM to work on the farm was all he needed.
yeah, babbee!!! now, that’s what I’m talking about - none of this “I’m booooooored …” oh, really? I’ll give you something to do!
:-)
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
USinUK
None of those are bad things. But assistant pastors do those things. Not world leaders.
Diplomacy is a good thing if the person you are talking to is concerned with how they will look on the civilized world stage. We lost a lot of good soldiers in the Korean War because the size and shape of the negotiating table was debated for almost a year before the talks could take place. Diplomacy can be used against us if we do not have the stones to let the other person know that there are some very difficult options at our disposal.
Ever heard of Good Cop, Bad Cop? It is a negotiating technique. I would like for the commander and Chief to be known as the Bad Cop. Let diplomats be the Good Cop. Once we become Good Cop, Good Cop, we are in trouble especially dealing with some of the very bad people that run parts of our world.
It isn’t politically correct and it isn’t nice, but I would rather our enemies understand that we will act once the negotiations break down.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
But assistant pastors do those things. Not world leaders.
for a first job out of college, of course world leaders do those things. he wasn’t a community organizer last year - it was right out of school. and I think it is a great item on his presidential resume.
Diplomacy can be used against us if we do not have the stones to let the other person know that there are some very difficult options at our disposal.
considering we’re the only country to have ever used a nuclear weapon TWICE, I think that message is out there. all of our best presidents have believed in diplomacy first (“walk softly and carry a big stick”) - heck, even W is in diplomatic talks with Iran, despite the fact that McCain criticized Obama for making the suggestion.
Ever heard of Good Cop, Bad Cop? It is a negotiating technique. I would like for the commander and Chief to be known as the Bad Cop.
I would like for the CiC to be known as someone who will use force if/when necessary but not until. McCain does not strike me as that person. Ready. Fire. Aim. it’s no way to lead a country.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Gale
I like McCain. There is so much about him that reminds me of my Dad. He was a fighter pilot and that was as good as it gets according to my Dad. He landed on aircraft carriers at a time when the planes were jets and the carriers were not much bigger than the WWII carriers that landed prop driven planes. To say that he is not smart enough to operate Windows XP after he flew jets is ridicules.
But I don’t want him to be destroyed by cable TV. I don’t want Bill Marh, who other than a sharp, sarcastic wit has never shown anything of value in his life, to stand as judge over this American hero. I want him to be able to retire with dignity.
When he dies, I want his obituary to talk about his heroics and his valor, not the mistakes he made as president.
I hate to admit that Hillary was probably the best choice, but she probably was. (Damn, pigs must be flying somewhere and I’m pretty sure hell just froze over)
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
USinUK
yeah, babbee!!! now, that’s what I’m talking about - none of this “I’m booooooored …” oh, really? I’ll give you something to do!
It was actually his Great Grandparents on his mother’s side. LOL! The old man would have none of it. He worked tobacco. He cut down trees. He painted a couple of the out buildings. And every Saturday morning, his young butt was in a fishing dingy. He had never fished in his life.
But he came back tanned and muscled up. He was a different person. It is a shame that a lot of kids do not have a PawPaw and BawBaw to straighten them out.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m not even sure I am going to vote at this point.
Go home, John. Leave the politics to the politicians. Stress causes cancers to return. Take that good looking wife and live the life that you have earned.
I think Obama deserves the presidency. Let his life be destroyed.
Hucabee said a funny thing. He said that this election may be the first election that the winner asks for a recount.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
TOJ, It’s easy to say Hillary was the best choice now. I’m still planning to write her name on my ballot. The other choices make me very worried. I don’t want to say I voted for either.
By lovelyliz
September 29, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
A vow is worthless if you don’t stick to it.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
He was a different person. It is a shame that a lot of kids do not have a PawPaw and BawBaw to straighten them out.
I agree - I think the worst problem the US has isn’t from a breakdown of marriage, it’s from the breakdown of the extended family. I know that, after my father’s father died, my grandmother relied on family to help raise her boys when she was working. The same with my mother - her grandfather helped her mother when she was little and her parent’s relationship was rocky (yes, these things happened even in the Depression)
Grandparents, aunts/uncles, family friends - everyone should be helping out when it comes to raising kids (it’s all part of the “it takes a village” mentality that Hillary talked about).
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Gale
I’m not sure she was the best choice in Washington. I REALLY liked Dr. Rice. She is a very smart woman and is as knowledgeable as anyone on earth of what is needed.
Maybe it was the 18 month Obama/Clinton Wars, but I am just weary of it all.
None of them give a damn about any of us. I know people who have broken up friendships over politics. DUH!?! There is not a soul inside the beltway that would give up a friend for any of us. They are politicians, they are lawyers, they are almost all millionaires. They are what they keep telling us are the bad guys.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
Oh noooo! Cadbury chocolate, Oreos and M&Ms may be taited with the Chinese milk!
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Hucabee said a funny thing. He said that this election may be the first election that the winner asks for a recount.
hahaha … seriously. look at it this way, though - hurdles to a positive legacy are pretty darned low!
Cindy McCain good looking? eeeeeesh. she scares me with her plastic Stepford look. I like Michelle - I just feel that her “angry eyes” (as Mrs. Potatohead called them in “Toy Story II”) are unfortunate. I’ve seen both of them interviewed - I’d rather have a glass of wine with Michelle any day of the week - I think she’d tell better/funnier stories than Cindy.
BTW - movie recommendation!!! Did you see Iron Man with Robert Downey, Jr?? we rented it Saturday - totally blew my doors off (and the Stan Lee cameo was priceless)
By ExperienceMatters?
September 29, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
from msnbc:
Suddenly, “experience” and purported expertise mean next to nothing. After all, Dick Cheney was “experienced,” and what did that get us? And George W. Bush had a Harvard MBA! And what did that get us?
seems the GOP is in charge before the Great Depressions.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
Downey was very good as Iron Man. I liked the portrayal. I liked the “not” relationship with the personal asst. I thought it was well produced. I like comic book movies. I really liked the last line. “I am Iron Man.” ::cut to music::
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m not sure that it takes a Village, but it definitely takes a family.
But on the other hand, when I grew up, I could always depend on Mrs. Olinger (the old bat) to be on the phone to my Mom if she saw me even looking like I was doing something wrong. Her, Mr. Cox, Mrs. Dishner, Mrs. Kestner, all friends of my parents that wouldn’t hesitate to tell me to “git home”. And I knew if I didn’t do what they said that my Mom would be getting a call.
But back then, my Mom had that damned switch. She only had to cut the blood out of my legs one time, but that’s all it took. Now days, she would go to jail for that.
For my kids, I was the nuclear deterrent. I never spanked either one of them, but their Mom sure did. I was what was going to happen if their mom’s spanking didn’t work. I’m glad it always did because I don’t know if I could have hit them or not.
By Archie
September 29, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
Actually never-never land is exactly where 12-13 year olds need to be. They will have their whole lives to be “sexual beings. Let them be kids. Let them hold hands. Let them dare to kiss. Personally, I’m not concerned with how soon they become proficient at sex. I think it is nice that they know little about it. What is considered “natural” in your circles is considered bad behavior in mine. I kinda agree with that commentary. Sorry Jokeson but that commentary makes sense because a whole lot of things come into play with being sexually active. My young one had better be in la-la land at this point.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Yes, she’s pretty. The stepford wives were all pretty. Hey. I’m a guy that likes women. Remember?
Michelle? I’d be afraid to get her drunk. I’ve seen those kind of eyes and it never turned out good. I can just hear it:
Barrack: But honey, why do I need to nuke England?
Michelle: Because I said so, that’s why.
Saw the promo for Iron Man last night. I was thinking about buying the DVD. I rarely rent anything. If you wait a few weeks, you can usually find it in the $5.99 bin at Target.
I’m sure that one would be $19.95, but I just like to own the movie. I have a huge collection.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I’ve had a love/hate thing with RD Jr ever since his drug problem spiralled out of control in the 90s. Then, when he was nominated for an Emmy for Ally McBeal and seemed so flippant about his recent arrest, I really wanted to just write him off.
Then, he went and knocked it out of the park in Zodiac and Gothica - and he was absolutely brilliant as Tony Stark. It really pi$$es me off when I see someone with so much talent waste it (and their lives) doing drugs.
(side note: he was also good in a cast of stand-outs in Richard III, the Sir Ian McKellen version)
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
USinUK
While we are making recommendations, if you don’t subscribe, pickup an October National Geographic. Really interesting article about Neanderthals which were all around you over there in Limy Land. They are starting to harvest some DNA from some of the bones and are finding out some really interesting things. They now believe that they required almost 10,000 calories a day to survive. (That’s what an Olympic bicyclist requires) so they pretty much starved out of existence. Their DNA is so different from the African Modern Man, that some people believe that even if they interbred, that a child could not be produced. Their brains were bigger than ours and their body mass was smaller.
Gibraltar has a cave where many scientist believe was their last stand in Europe. Very interesting stuff.
Archie
Take good care of that child. Let them be a child for as long as they can. They will be an adult all too soon.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
But on the other hand, when I grew up, I could always depend on Mrs. Olinger (the old bat) to be on the phone to my Mom if she saw me even looking like I was doing something wrong. Her, Mr. Cox, Mrs. Dishner, Mrs. Kestner, all friends of my parents that wouldn’t hesitate to tell me to “git home”.
THAT’s what Hillary was talking about! (and, yes, my mother had a network of “little birds” that would let her know when I was misbehaving, as in “a little bird told me that you made Mason cry … a little bird told me this … a little bird told me that” … drove me nuts!) Now, most neighbors don’t know each other, much less whose kid belongs to whom.
My dad was the nuclear option in our house, too. If he yelled, you knew you were in some trouble, but were generally okay. If he got really quiet and his voice dropped an octave - pack. leave town. don’t leave a forwarding address because you were in such a world of trouble, taking your chances living with wolves would be preferable.
As for Michelle, I see a lot of myself in her “I don’t care if you ARE the leader of the free world, pick up your underpants and put them in the laundry basket! I’m neither your mother nor your maid”
Iron Man is worth it - definitely something you want to add to the collection.
On the plane, I saw Forgetting Sarah Marshall and was pleasantly surprised - MUCH better than I was expecting it to be. Made of Honor, however, was SO NOT. The Other Boleyn Girl - meh. the book was better. Mama Mia - who in the name of all that is holy told Pierce Brosnin that he could sing? He absolutely butchered S.O.S.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
October National Geographic. Really interesting article about Neanderthals which were all around you over there in Limy Land
Neanderthals no longer exist? try riding the Tube around midnight on the weekend - loud, loutish, no higher-level brain functions.
sounds very interesting, though. have you heard the latest about Stonehenge? recent digs have changed the date for it to be about 3,000 years younger than they thought - AND they think it was a center for healing rather than a place for human sacrifices.
we live in interesting times, all these discoveries. I’ll look for the NatGeo.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 29, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Diplomacy is for small kittens! Attack the Farging Bastages! Not Bad cop, good Infantryman! take the High Groud Brother John! Nuke ‘em all, let God (or Allah or Jehovah or John Smith) sort ‘em! Don’t Mess with the RED WHITE AND BLUE! STFU Iran and North Korea and do what your told! That’s what we need! :-)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 29, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
JokesON, I drove when I was 15, it was called a learners permit! You DUMBASS! hehe I laugh when I think of you driving while an 8th grader! I bet you had a primer colored Pontiac Lemans! HEHE
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
USinUK
My Granddad was a diviner. He could find water with a diving rod. He claimed that the earth was covered with a magnetic grid which water sometimes ran along. He said that places like Stonehenge and the Great Pyramid were huge intersections of such grids. he also said that the early Christians in Europe would almost always build the great Cathedrals on ancient pagan sites because they understood that there was power in that location, because of some of these intersections.
During WWI, the soldiers would watch where cattle slept and sleep in those spots to cure some joint disorders like arthritis.
Now, there is an Exxon commercial about how they are using that magnetic grid to locate oil. I am seeing shows on the History Channel about those lines. They are called Lei Lines or Ley Lines. The crazy old man was right.
He was a Freewill Baptist Minister. OMG. What if he was right about all that religion?!?! I am soooo screwed.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
I’ve heard about ley/lei/lay lines - hadn’t heard that they applied to oil, as well.
During WWI, the soldiers would watch where cattle slept and sleep in those spots to cure some joint disorders like arthritis.
gah - they were probably just glad to get out of the wet trenches. those men lived through a hell on earth I can’t even wrap my mind around.
getting ready to head home - have a good evening!!!
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this
Gale
A question. How many women are now the head of state for their countries?
Out of all the countries in the world, I counted 9.
I wonder if that is less than usual?
I read an article that was claiming that England now only puts men is as Prime Minister because of the fact that they will need to stand eye to eye with the richest and most powerful men in the world who are now mostly Muslim.
I just thought that I would throw that out there before I started working this afternoon.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
I read an article that was claiming that England now only puts men is as Prime Minister because of the fact that they will need to stand eye to eye with the richest and most powerful men in the world who are now mostly Muslim.
sorry, but that’s SUCH a load of bollocks it isn’t even funny.
whoever wrote that needs to learn how the political system works in the UK.
seriously.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
USinUK
I thought you were going home?
Try to sneak in one good lie, but noooooooo.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
USinUK, I finally remembered what else I recently saw Downey in where he was good. Tropic Thunder. I had not expected to like the movie, but it was pretty good. I thought maybe his acting was better lately because he must have gotten the drugs under control.
Ley Lines are frequently mentioned in fantasy novels. Witches draw power from them, demons travel on them. Stuff like that.
I think if the richest men in the world are muslim, they will have to get used to dealing with women who have power. Our Sec of State does not seem to have any problems. It sounds more like the British Parliment might have a problem. Or maybe they don’t currently have any women MPs with sufficient nerve.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
I’m not sure she was the best choice in Washington. I REALLY liked Dr. Rice. She is a very smart woman and is as knowledgeable as anyone on earth of what is needed.
TOJ—I’m still wondering why Condi wasn’t selected as the VP choice for McCain. IMO, she may be the best qualified candidate for the job, man or woman, black or white. Perhaps she was asked, but politely declined.
Any opinions re: the debate on Friday night? I was on a date, so only caught bits and pieces. I thought that McCain was sharp overall and projected an air of confidence and experience. Obama struck me as being the proverbial “deer in the headlights”. His answers to the foreign policy questions sounded like those coming from someone who may have read several books about the topic, but had no real life experience to draw upon. I kept waiting for him to say “But, I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.”
By Dawna
September 29, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
I aspire for virginity every day. Unfortunately it’s hard to find male virgins. I’ve had to start my search at 13 -17 year olds. I figured I have a better shot with them.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
Bruno
I think Condi turned them down. She is very smart. I’m not sure any really smart person would be willing to take that job.
Obama looked slick in the debates. He is slick. He is a world class democratic politician. I think he looked pretty foolish with all the eye rolling, but McCain looked like he was hanging on to that podium for dear life.
Signed
Disillusioned in Atlanta.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
TOJ, so you were just trying to pull a fast one, eh?
Bruno, I agree. Maybe Dr Rice was asked and didn’t want to deal with the nonsense we call campaigns.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Wow, the market sure reacted badly to the bailout vote. I won’t go on thrill rides that drop that fast.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this
Obama looked slick in the debates. He is slick. He is a world class democratic politician. I think he looked pretty foolish with all the eye rolling, but McCain looked like he was hanging on to that podium for dear life.
I wasn’t able to watch long enough to rate the “body language” factor from gavel to gavel, but Obama looked a little rattled at times.
Signed, Disillusioned in Atlanta.
I know the feeling, buddy. I always believed that working hard and playing by the rules was the path to success, but I’m not sure anymore. So many components of our lives are out of our control….
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
Maybe I still want to believe in free love. I think the problem is that kids, especially girls, get the notion that sex=love. I think kids need to understand that is frequently not the case until they are mature. It takes years before we understand that what is happening now in our life may not be there next year; or even next week. If I explain to a 17 year old that sex can and should be something special between two people who are committed to one another, that teen will likely say and believe that he/she is committed and deeply in love. They will not remember that just last week it was someone else they were deeply committed to. I would rather the teen think of sex as something fun without lasting commitment until much later, and take appropriate precaustions. But ok, that is my personal fantasyland.
Gale—If I learned one thing from hanging out with the hippie crowd, it’s this: Nothing is free in this world, especially love. While I’m guessing that it’s a hard sell to get young people to understand that, I feel strongly that that should be the message we communicate.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Am I the only one who has noticed how quiet the media has been about Joe Biden? I wonder why. I still keep hearing rumours that he may drop out at the last minute, opening the door for Hillary to be VP.
I saw Bill on a late night talk show about a week ago, and all he could talk about was Hillary. When pressed, he tossed out a few bones to Obama, but didn’t seem overly eager to do so. SOme pundits have suggested that the Clintons would actually prefer for McCain to win this go-round, so that Hillary could have her chance in 2012. That kind of makes sense to me, but it is an unsubstantiated rumour as well.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
The Clintons won’t do anything directly negative to Obama. At this point, I don’t think it will matter who wins, Hillary will be back in 2012.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
I just saw an update on the Dow: Down almost 500 points.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Gale
USinUK ruined a perfectly good lie. That’s just like her.
But it is interesting that there are only 9 heads of state in the world that are women. it seems like there used to be more.
I really liked Golda Mier. My favorite line from her is: “Don’t be so humble. You’re not that great.”
By ExperienceMatters?
September 29, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
I just saw an update on the Dow: Down almost 500 points
GOP economic policies at their finest.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
ExperienceMatters?
GOP? What GOP are you talking about? The GOP that went home after the election of 2006?
Pal, that was two years ago. You know, when gas was 1.85 a gallon.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
“Don’t be so humble. You’re not that great.” I need to remember that one. I am notoriously gullible. While I didn’t actually believe the Parliment would nix a woman PM for that reason, it sounded likely that some columnist would suggest it. It is a problem I encountered years ago as a consultant. Several male managers simply would not follow my advice —to the detriment of their company. (IT stuff) On one occasion, I told the boss to put a tie on a junior programmer and send him over with the proposal.
I don’t know what to think about the bailout plan myself. It is a hard read for me. I’ll be interested to learn what seemed to be its downfall.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
GOP economic policies at their finest.
Hopefully, you’re not so naive to believe that the mortgage/credit crisis is the fault of strictly one party or the other, EM.
The bottom line is that John McCain is the only politician I know of that tried to pass legislation to reign in FreddieMac and FannieMae back in 2005.
Here on the blog, I’ve been drawing attention to the housing/credit bubble for more than a year.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Gale
For once liberals and conservatives have something to agree on: our government sucks.
I’m pretty sure I have never seen everyone’s opinions any lower than they are right now.
Wouldn’t it be funny if they had an election and nobody voted?
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Brunoooooooooooooooooo -
TOJ—I’m still wondering why Condi wasn’t selected as the VP choice for McCain. IMO, she may be the best qualified candidate for the job, man or woman, black or white. Perhaps she was asked, but politely declined.
2 reasons: 1) Condi wouldn’t deliver the evangelical vote, which McCain desperately needed, and 2) he’s trying to separate himself from W - Condi is pretty much the face of the W administration.
hey buddy!!! :-) I’d ask how your love life is, but I don’t want details - just the topline
TOJ -
don’t want to ruin a good lie (I usually like the creative ones) - but that was so ludicrous, I just had to call it.
But it is interesting that there are only 9 heads of state in the world that are women. it seems like there used to be more.
Margaret Thatcher just made it feel like more
By Gale
September 29, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
TOJ, wouldn’t happen. The outside fringes would vote. Which fringe group do you think could bring out the most votes?
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Gale3
More Golda quotes
:Whether women are better than men I cannot say – but I can say they are certainly no worse.
Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. (That one chokes me up a little.)
Old age is like a plane flying through a storm. Once you’re aboard, there’s nothing you can do. You can’t stop the plane, you can’t stop the storm, you can’t stop time. So one might as well accept it calmly, wisely.
While he was President, Richard Nixon commented to her that both Israel and the U.S. had Jewish “Foreign Ministers” (Kissinger and Abba Eban). Yes, she responded, but mine speaks English.
And one of my favs: Let me tell you something that we Israelis have against Moses. He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil .
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Thacher and Mier
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
2 reasons: 1) Condi wouldn’t deliver the evangelical vote, which McCain desperately needed, and 2) he’s trying to separate himself from W - Condi is pretty much the face of the W administration.
Good analysis, USinUK.
hey buddy!!! :-) I’d ask how your love life is, but I don’t want details - just the topline
She’s a nice person, so we may hang out for a while. We’re talking about spending a weekend in Beaufort, SC in 2 weeks.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
I find the last quote about oil interesting. I thought Israel was a particularly fertile area. If I was leaving the desert, I would prefer fertile ground to oil any day.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.
I’m a big fan of Golda as well, TOJ. The quote you mentioned here is, unfortunately, still fresh in the “modern” world. She was a visionary.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Gale
Which fringe group do you think could bring out the most votes?
Good question. I have no idea.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
I thought Israel was a particularly fertile area.
The only reason it is, Gale, is due to the hard work of the Israelis who constructed a massive irrigation system. That part of the story is usually “conveniently” forgotten by the press when they decry how the land was “stolen” from the Palestinians. At the beginning of the Zionist Movement in the late 1800s, what is now modern-day Israel was little more than a wasteland.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Gale—I believe TOJ and USinUK mentioned “Innocents Abroad” by Mark Twain recently. In that book, he devotes an entire section to his visit to Jerusalem, about what a disappointment it was in the mid-late 1800s. Very interesting reading if you can get your hands on a copy.
By Bruno
September 29, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
In light of the distressing news, I’m calling on Argent for the Song of the Day:
And if it’s bad Don’t let it get you down, you can take it. And if it hurts Don’t let them see you cry, you can take it.
Hold your head up (woman), hold your head up (woman) Hold your head up (woman), hold your head high.
And if they stare Just let them burn their eyes on you moving. And if they shout Don’t let them change a thing what you’re doing.
Hold your head up (woman), hold your head up (woman) Hold your head up (woman), hold your head high
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
Bruno -
She’s a nice person, so we may hang out for a while. We’re talking about spending a weekend in Beaufort, SC in 2 weeks.
well done, you!!! I hope you’ve got a smile on your face and a song in your heart, mister!! :-) I’m happy for you
TOJ -
Nice one on the Golda quotes - you’re absolutely right - she truly was a visionary and we have been worse off without her.
Gale -
The outside fringes would vote. Which fringe group do you think could bring out the most votes?
easy one - AARP. senior citizens will ALWAYS vote. ALWAYS. (I don’t think they’re fringe, btw - but they are the most consistent voting bloc)
so, what do you guys think about the bail-out vote??? Dow down 6%, Nasdaqw down nearly 8% FTSE 100 down nearly 5% … look, I’m not a huge fan of the bill, but we are going to reap a whirlwind if Congress doesn’t do something -
By Gale
September 30, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this
The market took a big hit. Lately, though, it seems to be quite the roller coaster; down one day and up the next. Emotion seems to be as big a factor as anything, from an outside observation. My other half has been pretty worried because first our mortgage lender was in trouble and now our bank, Wachovia sold out. I keep saying the market is resilient and I hope I am right. However, combined with the gas shortage, it is worrisome. It makes me want to be sure I keep some staples in the pantry.
By Gale
September 30, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
USinUK, ah but your question was about the bailout vote. It sounds like the House understands the need for urgency, but does not want to be careless. The bailout is unpopular and if it failsanyway, they can expect to lose their seat if they voted for it. On the other hand, they may still lose their seat for the vote even if it does succeed. The only hope, if you are a politician, (I think) is the plan does revive the economy and it starts an upward trend. Maybe things will improve enough before the next election that they can point to a positive. I just hope they are smart enough to leave the political manuevering out of the bill.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I keep saying the market is resilient and I hope I am right. However, combined with the gas shortage, it is worrisome. It makes me want to be sure I keep some staples in the pantry.
it is going to take more than peanut butter and Ritz crackers to get through this. LIBOR went through the roof last night and hit an all-time high - if banks can’t get money, they can’t lend money and companies can’t grow.
if this bailout doesn’t happen, you’re going to see a lot more banks closing off lines of credit, a lot fewer mortgages being made available, a lot more companies failing because they can’t get a loan to help them during difficult times (increasing the unemployment rate)
Emotion seems to be as big a factor as anything, from an outside observation
lawmakers (plus Paulson and Bernanke) have done a crap job explaining what exactly is going on - no wonder most folks are opposed to it - they really don’t see the big picture.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
Gale -
It sounds like the House understands the need for urgency, but does not want to be careless.
meh. the nitwits who said they voted against it because of Pelosi’s speech need to be strung up by the short-and-curlies. talk about putting partisanship before the country. Pelosi managed to wrangle 60% of Democrats to vote for a Republican bill and they vote against it and their own party because she’s a meanie??? criminey - talk about small.
(and talk about putting a nail in the “no, really, W is still effective” coffin …)
By Gale
September 30, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
I have to say, some of the things I’ve heard from Obama haven’t helped. It makes a nice campaign slogan: We cannot do something for Wall Street and not do something for Main Street. Or however he put it. It lets people think this is just another gimme for the wealthy. The problem is as you put it, if banks can’t get money, they can’t lend money. We do need some restraints.
I don’t think it is prudent to give Paulson complete authority over $700B with NO accountability. To many rules, though, and it will be too cumbersome to be agile. The only other rule I have heard that I like is a stop to the golden parachute factor. True, we cannot overrule and existing contract. But I think this practice has been a factor in the short term management probelm in business. A new CEO comes in, makes the company look good on the books, then leaves with a bundle, whether the success continues or not. If the strategy failed, the CEO still departs with a bundle, surprisingly often to another company and the same sweetheart deal. That is what the public hears from the news and that is what they are tired of.
By Gale
September 30, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
You are right about the partisan votes. It is true enough that many of our representatives should be voted out.
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Nobody cares. When I went through my divorce, my mortgage payments basically doubled because she gave me the house, and the two year old mortgage. The bank didn’t give a damn. I sold my infinity Q-45 and started driving my 1974 Ford Courier. Nobody gave a damn that I was having the hardest time in my life.
Nobody was there to bail me out.
Now I have one credit card that I never use. My debit card is the card I do all my business with.
It’s all about credit, but Americans have been screwed over and over again by the banks, mortgage companies and credit card companies. Nobody gave a sh^t.
Most Americans aren’t trying to get a loan. Most Americans qualified for their mortgages but if there was any problem, the damn banks were ready to work with them, as long as they doubled up on the payments.
I don’t live in my 3,000 sq.ft., four bedroom house with a acre of land and a swimming pool any more. I had to practically give it away and now i live in this 140 year old pile of lumber that doesn’t have a working air conditioner.
Unfortunately, I think this is the same story with most Americans.
Bail the banks out? F^ck the banks.
Nancy Pelosi crowed all day that this was not a partisan issue but as soon as the cameras came on, she became the eye batting partisan brainless twit that she always is and it backfired.
Here’s the first step. Let all the Congressmen that got all that dirty money from Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac give it up for seed money to start the process. Every dime. FIRST, let them prove to us that they are willing to admit their mistakes.
At that point, then we will consider the bail out. But until then, screw em all. Let them bail themselves out.
By Lyrazel
September 30, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
So here we are debating virginity and stocks are falling because many members of Congress were too afraid of their constituents wrath to pass a blank check 700 billion bill in an election year. My guess is the ones who were not up for re-election voted for the bill despite the outcry. My 2 Republican congresswomen did not vote at all and one Democrat voted for and one voted against. Funny, I remember how many of these failed institutions wanted to privatize SSI and lobbied hard to get passage. Yes, how many closed banks and now-unemployed market brokers wanted secured government funds of retired persons? Most of them.
A man is in court to get an annulment because his wife was not a virgin. The courts have said it is not a valid reason for an annulment since sexual intercourse had already occurred. What about the new surgical procedures of remaking the hymen? Is that an option you want for your daughter/fiance to consider for her wedding day just so a piece of skin can be ruptured? Is breaking a hymen really so important to marriage?
TOJ—my sympathies for your loss.
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Sorry about the AM ranker, but everybody I know is very bitter about this. And remember, I know almost no conservatives. We did what we were supposed to do. It wasn’t any of us that got those easy-go-lucky loans that Barnie Frank whined about for the past 12 years.
We aren’t poor. We have worked our as^es off our whole life. Nobody has ever given any of us an unqualified loan.
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel
Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.
By Gale
September 30, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, What about the new surgical procedures of remaking the hymen?
I would actually prefer a surgical procedure to cut the hyman before marriage so the virgin can have a more satisfying first experience. I remember hearing some singer go on about the first time wishing each time could be like the first time. Not in a million years would I want that. Obviously, the singer was male.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Nobody was there to bail me out.
the difference being: if you failed/went under, you wouldn’t take the rest of the country and most of the rest of the developed world with you.
(I don’t mean for that to sound as flippant as I know it does, but them’s the facts)
Let all the Congressmen that got all that dirty money from Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac give it up for seed money to start the process. Every dime. FIRST, let them prove to us that they are willing to admit their mistakes.
and when we all get back from Planet LaLaLand, let’s get real.
First of all, despite what you’ve read, this isn’t entirely about Fannie/Freddie. while they did buy mortgages, the banks made blindingly stupid loans to people who didn’t qualify, they created loan products that were punitive even to people who did qualify, credit cards have been raising credit limits and interest rates to the worst off among us, and leveraged their balance sheets making those loans … and why? because they could sell off the risk in ABS and MBS securities … not to mention, people could buy derivatives based on those securities. and behind the scenes? Moodys and Standard and Poors’ were playing fast-and-loose with the ratings, basically encouraging people to invest in riskier securities because they misrated them as AA or AAA.
yeah, you may want folks to give back the lobbying money Fannie and Freddie spent, but criminey, they aren’t the only cause of this disaster.
By Average Citizen
September 30, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
Nobody has ever bailed ME out either! (I guess we’re supposed to begin our posts with that disclaimer, huh?) I’ve sacrificed plenty and have played by the rules. What’s upsetting is not that Congress shot down what might have been a bad deal for the taxpayers — I could appreciate that if it’s really what they were doing — but that ALL the people who seem to understand the economy are saying that this “crisis” is like a heart attack: If you don’t get the heart pumping, all the other organs are going to be deprived of the oxygen they need to survive. Are all our experts making that up?
As someone living on the end of one of those organs, playing by the rules, I RESENT THE F—K out of the idea that MY life, assets, future, etc. will be diminished because somebody ELSE was stuffing cholesterol into the arteries around the heart with no thought for daily cardio. Somebody ELSE’s greed and corruption is going to screw over when and how I might ever hope to retire, whether I can ever sell this house when the kids are grown, and the quality of the educational options I can provide. Those somebody ELSE people have stashed their billions offshore and in loopholes. Those somebody ELSE people set themselves up for the easy life before anyone knew about the “crisis” they certainly enabled and profited from, if not caused directly.
So let’s not bail THEM out, but I think my well-paid, secure salary & benefits elected representatives should be looking out for ME for a freaking change, don’t you? How is doing NOTHING looking out for me? F—-ers.
By Gale
September 30, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
I agree with the sentiments that we played by the rules and we are not getting bailed out. Instead they are getting help for being greedy and/or stupid. My emotional side agrees that we should let them stew in it. No one is offering to set my mortgage down a notch. I would like to move to another house. No one is offering to buy my house for what it is worth so I can move. My rational side knows that the banks must be returned to stability. If credit dries up, businesses will fail, jobs will be lost and there will be more foreclosures and bankruptcies. The inability to get a loan for a new car or fund that college tuition will seem like small issues.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 30, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Lenin would have bailed out the banks, Stalin would have bailed out the banks, Marx would approve. I don’t!
By Ironman Carmichael
September 30, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
No, galdalf grey, I did not take my son to the cathouse; nor was I taken there by my father when I turned 16. You missed the point entirely, which is that virginity—the topic of this discussion, right? (though you’d never guess from several of these posts)—is traditionally considered a strictly female concern, that even in the good old “moral” days of yore (before homosexuality was even invented!) males were not expected to be virgins until marriage. But at least your angry response proved my other point, that there have been too many posts betraying an immature mindset for this discussion to be continued by adults. Also very interesting how the topic has now become money. Shows how much virginity really is valued in a capitalistic society.
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I agree that they are not the only cause. But they are our government. We trusted them. And now the bottom is dropping out and all we see is the millionaires in Washington pointing fingers.
If I heard ANYBODY take any responsibility for this, I might change my mind.
I understand that this was all about making bad loans. In 2001, I would have given anything for one of those bad loans But I couldn’t refinance my house because I didn’t have the solitary income that my wife and I had. I was overqualified for the bad loans and under-qualified for the good loans. So I gave away the house ($100,000 less than market value), sold my paid-for car to make a down payment on this pile of rotten lumber that a friend was desperate to unload.
But that’s the story of being a middle class American. Too wealthy for help, but not wealthy enough to make a decent living. It’s like Health Care. My demographic has more health problems than anybody in the country. But it’s not good politics to fight for the guy that is getting older and sicker, but man, that health care for children, especially poor children gets those votes. I took good care of my kids. Why do I have to take care of every body eles’s kids?
And now that pandering to every demographic but me has gotten us into a mess. But whose going to need to make yet another HUGE sacrifice to bail out our government’s criminal behavior? You got it. Middle class Americans. the guys that have been bending over all my life.
This isn’t about Democrats and Republicans. BOTH parties have been playing class warfare and we have been the casualties. I think it is time that the other classes start paying the piper for once.
Remember here, I am not yelling at you. My children’s mother works in the stock market. But she agrees with me. Some of her multi-millionaire clients are sh^tting bricks, but i think they deserve all the consideration that I was given when I was fighting for my life.
Sorry about all those world banks. I will tell them what they told me. Can’t help you, pal. Figure it out yourself.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
Gale -
My rational side knows that the banks must be returned to stability. If credit dries up, businesses will fail, jobs will be lost and there will be more foreclosures and bankruptcies. The inability to get a loan for a new car or fund that college tuition will seem like small issues.
zackly.
unemployment is currently 6.1% - expected to rise to at leat 7% … if this bail-out doesn’t go through, we could be talking double-digit unemployment again.
By Average Citizen
September 30, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
I agree that it’s the middle class who get screwed, and that our representatives have been more interested in using partisan class warfare to retain power than in doing their JOBS: what’s right for the people. (If you’re not going to do what you’re paid to do, just quit and go the f—- home.) I assert there’s little we can do to change that in a system where no one gets elected without big huge obscene wads of money.
I go a step further, though. The “me first” and “only MY kids matter to me” mentality has enabled, fostered, and fertilized the mindset that got us here. I’m sure that Lehman Brothers guy also felt that only HIS kids’s health and education mattered. I’m sure the Republicans (who oppose all forms of government except their own paychecks, making war, and telling people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies) think that “only MY kids matter” is a family value to preach until election day, after which time they go back to ignoring everything.
BTW, you DO pay for other people’s medical bills every time YOUR bill is jacked up beyond what you should pay for those services and medications. Fixing what’s broken would not make us “socialists”. We’d still be AMERICANS, dedicated as always to our own self-determination. Trying to change something that doesn’t work into something that DOES work will not make us all wake up tomorrow speaking French, drinking Perrier, refusing to work, and waiting for our neighbor to leave so we can go seduce his wife. It’s called BEING SMART. Look around and tell me that refusing to fix what’s broken is the smart way to go, because I’m just not seeing it.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
But they are our government. We trusted them. And now the bottom is dropping out and all we see is the millionaires in Washington pointing fingers.
if you’re talking about Fannie/Freddie, they weren’t government (until a few weeks ago). they were a GSE, yes, but that is NOT the same. they were private institutions - they were not part of the government (and I can’t emphasize that enough). heck, out of all the players, Fannie and Freddie were the cleanest of the lot - they weren’t the ones making fraudulent loans, the banks/mortgage companies were.
If I heard ANYBODY take any responsibility for this, I might change my mind.
because it isn’t just one person/bank/industry - it was much bigger than that - which is why the problem is so wide-spread now. if it was just one industry (like the airlines), fixing the problem would be a heckuva lot easier.
remember, this all started back in August when the bottom started falling out of the credit market and investors started realizing that their AAA-rated securities were little better than junk. then in march with the bear-stearns bailout. then came fannie/freddie and things accelerated.
as Roy Scheider said - we’re gonna need a bigger boat. this problem requires an ocean liner.
My demographic has more health problems than anybody in the country.
unless you’re below the poverty line and black, that’s not true, but we won’t get into that now.
Sorry about all those world banks. I will tell them what they told me. Can’t help you, pal. Figure it out yourself.
fine, just make sure you pack your nose in ice after you cut it off to spite your face. because you’re going to pay for it one way or another - either you’ll pay by the markets failing (which, btw, would cost a helluva lot more than $700B), and which is going to lead to company cut-backs, greater unemployment and fewer video jobs for you … or you’re going to pay with a bailout which could actually wind up at least recovering some of the dough when the markets start to recouperate.
By Gale
September 30, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
So, as I understand it, the House is in recess until after Rosh Hashanah. They will not reconvene until Thursday. Are they saying the entire House is Jewish? Are they saying that in this crisis these important elected officials cannot be back in the office the day after the holiday? They really need an extra day and meanwhile, the financial system can just continue its meltdown?
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I never worry about making a living. I spent the first half of my life as a professional musician and I can do it again. In fact, after the last couple of jobs, it would be a huge step up in pay.
But that’s what my parents taught me. Always have my own safety net. My kid is a whiz at computers and even though his degree(s, soon to be) is in computer software development, he can always get a job fixing the things.
But girl, it ain’t just me. I just took my super-duper, kick my as^ 4.5 mile walk around the hood. I just talked to three different people. They are ALL highly upset.
Nothing is being explained because our idiot leaders can’t talk in anything but 20 second sound bites, so nobody knows what the problems really are. We are all just being told that it is very complicated and we are in deep sh^t.
What are we nine years old? Why is it that so many people that are high in the money world are saying that this is crap?
I have never seen the public’s opinion of our government at a lower level.
By Mara
September 30, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
TOJ - understand that this was all about making bad loans.
it’s not just that they made bad loans, but what they did with them afterwards. The lenders basically broke these loans into percentages and bundled them into “investment vehicles” and sold them as a package. Neither we nor they have the slightest idea on how deep the hole is because the exact valuation is impossible. I can’t help but think that had this practice been tracked and regulated, we wouldn’t be in the situation we’re in.
Lyrazel - My guess is the ones who were not up for re-election voted for the bill despite the outcry
the data supports your guess…
WASHINGTON (AP) — “Two-thirds of Congress’ most vulnerable members — Republicans and Democrats alike — chose to protect their seats on Election Day rather than follow their party leaders and vote for an unpopular economic bailout plan.”
{snip}
“Of the 19 most vulnerable House lawmakers tracked by The Associated Press, 13 of them voted against the bill despite pleas from their party leaders to pass it.”
“Of the 11 most-endangered Republican incumbents, eight voted “no”. Three vulnerable Republicans voted “yes”. Of the eight most-endangered Democrats, five voted against the bill and three voted “yes”.”
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
Mara
It is incestuous. And the very same people that were getting HUGE amounts of money to look the other way are now allowing the CEOs that committed those criminal acts to keep their ill-gotten millions.
This has been a problem that few have wanted to recognize. And now we are left to pay for it.
Now, what in the world is right about that?
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
go Mara go!!!
well answered!!
TOJ -
our idiot leaders can’t talk in anything but 20 second sound bites, so nobody knows what the problems really are
blame the media for that (not liberal v. conservative - just media) - when they don’t spend more than 5 minutes on any one story and need to include quotes from an expert, a congress critter or two and a man on the street, you’ve just eaten up all your time. you’re in media, you know that I’m right.
and the shows that do go into depth (NewsHour, for example) aren’t the ones that the majority of people watch. the majority of people want to know their local weather and what traffic is doing - that’s it. then, you have the cable stations that are far more interested in putting up 4 talking heads and letting them fight it out rather than 1 or 2 experts who are going to use bar charts and timelines to explain what’s going on — fights = ratings, bar charts = ratings for another station (probably the one with the fighting talking heads)
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
And the very same people that were getting HUGE amounts of money to look the other way are now allowing the CEOs that committed those criminal acts to keep their ill-gotten millions.
whoa-whoa-whoa … none of this was illegal (well, other than some fraudulent mortgages)
creating tranches of mortgage risk was not illegal
trading in derivatives was not illegal
misrating securities was sloppy but was not illegal
heck, even short-selling is not illegal
none of the people who have lost their jobs and/or their companies over the last 13 months are criminals. reckless? maybe. but not criminal.
By Lyrazel
September 30, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
Endangered republicans—endangered democrats—-it rings in my ears. If anyone votes for any incumbent they are supporting the circus that has been in office—and clowns in government on the dole just wont get my vote. 700 billion was an icepick to be shoved up every taxpayer’s nose to not smell the loan
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
USinUk
I’m disgusted enough. I have to go to work.
If I could sell this piece of crap house, I would go back to Tennessee tomorrow. I can be broke anywhere.
I meant to tell you yesterday. Thanks for letting me blabber about my kid and his PawPaw. This is a hard week and remembering all that helped a lot.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
I meant to tell you yesterday. Thanks for letting me blabber about my kid and his PawPaw. This is a hard week and remembering all that helped a lot.
::: hugs :::
By Mara
September 30, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Thanks, USinUk. I’ve been doing a LOT of reading on this since last week trying to ferret out what the deal is because like you and TOJ say, the media sure ain’t explaining it. I have to admit that I was sort of relieved when the bailout didn’t pass because:
Nobody bothered to explain HOW the program would work. I still don’t know and I’ve been looking!
Nobody can say for certain if the infusion of capital will do anything except put a bandaid on the problem. Will we be in the same situation a year from now, after the money’s spent?
All we have to go on is conjecture as to what will happen if nothing is done. Of course there’s going to be some slowdown, maybe even some shrinkage, in the economy but isn’t that how markets work, in cycles? They say that the economy will implode and we’re all doooooooomed! if we don’t give ‘em the cash, but so far all I’ve seen is a some financial institutions getting their comeuppance for their poor business practices.
now, unlike you, I don’t work in finance so this is a layman’s understanding of the issue. What I do know is that if Congress wants to use our tax-money to prop up the markets and bail-out the mortgage brokers, they’re going to have to find someone who can articulate the problem, explain the solution, and convince us that it’ll actually work…straight up and no jargon.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
if anyone is interested, here’s a quick article outlining the economic forecast:
http:// www. bloomberg. com/ apps/ news?pid=20601068&sid=ayyjXs25Y7oE&refer=economy
(copy, paste … delete spaces)
(oh, and the Q2 GDP number of 2.8 is annualized, which means that quarter on quarter growth for April-June was only 0.7% … and that’s with the checks from the gummint)
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Mara -
like you, I’ve been reading like a mo-fo for the last few days since Paulson announced the bail-out plan. what works for me: I create an outline and go to the WaPo, the NYT, the LAT, Time, etc and pick up bits and pieces of the bill to fill in the outline.
crappy way to run a railroad, if you ask me - and who wants to go online and read a 110-page bill??
as for the how - even Paulson would tell you he didn’t know exactly how the security buy-back was going to work.
as for where we’ll be in year, we’ll probably just be coming out of a recession even with the bail-out (projected for Q408 and Q109) - without it, we could still be foundering.
they’re going to have to find someone who can articulate the problem, explain the solution, and convince us that it’ll actually work…straight up and no jargon
I agree with you there - as I said earlier, Paulson or Bernanke should have done a better job on the education front - more than “we gotta do this!” - we need the follow-up “and this is why”
bottom line - lending institutions need money - the buy-back program will help give them the liquidity they need by getting securities that they currently can’t sell off their books. liquidity = credit for businesses, families, mortgages, etc.
By Mara
September 30, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
The best and worst cases as seen by respected economist/author/business journalist Tyler Cowen -
“The best case scenario: The bad banks continue to be bought up, there is no run on hedge funds next Tuesday, only mid-sized European banks fail, money market funds keep on buying commercial paper, and the Fed and Treasury continue to operate on a case-by-case basis. Since Congress doesn’t have to vote for something called “a bailout,” it can give Paulson and Bernanke more operational freedom than they would have otherwise had. The American economy is in recession for two years and unemployment does not rise above eight or nine percent.”
“The worst case scenario: Credit markets freeze up within the next week and many businesses cannot meet their payrolls. Margin calls cannot be met and the NYSE shuts down for a week. Hardly anyone can get a mortgage so most home prices end up undefined rather than low. There is an emergency de facto nationalization of banks to keep the payments system moving. The Paulson plan is seen as a lost paradise. There is no one to buy up the busted hedge funds, so government and the taxpayer end up holding the bag. The quasi-nationalized banks are asked to serve political ends and it proves hard to recapitalize them in private hands. In the very worst case scenario, the Chinese bubble bursts too.”
If you want to check him out, Google words - Marginal Revolution Best Worst
By Gale
September 30, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
The initial articulation of Paulson’s plan sounded like it was coming from Joe UsedCarSalesman. “You must act now!” I was left with, Why?
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
At 2:40 PM, the DOW is up 400, recovering over half of what it lost yesterday.
Are we sure we need to give away 700 billion dollars?
By Gale
September 30, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
It is no surprise the DOW is up again today. Opportunists expect a recovery and leap on bargains after a drop like yesterday. People probably panicked and sold good stocks with dodgy ones.
By USinUK
September 30, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
Are we sure we need to give away 700 billion dollars?
careful, there, cowboy … today’s rally is in anticipation of an agreement. if the president or Pelosi or Reid or Boehner came out today and said “not gonna happen”, I can promise you we’d see a repeat of yesterday … only worse.
and, don’t forget, we’re not “giving away” anything - we’re actually talking about buying securities which could actually recoup their losses when the market turns (unlike buying dot-com stocks, these securities actually have an asset behind them - your house … or your neighbor’s)
By Mara
September 30, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Gale - The initial articulation of Paulson’s plan sounded like it was coming from Joe UsedCarSalesman. “You must act now!” I was left with, Why?
My husband had the same reaction. He wondered why there was such a rush to push the legislation through the system. He figured either there was something dicey about it or else the world economy was in deeper doo-doo than even the scare-mongers were saying.
By The Other Jack
September 30, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Nah. I gotta draw the line here. you can’t tell me that this will actually cost less than the government says. My favorite line applies: How long have I been asleep?
If we get ANY of that money back, it will go straight to pork.
The Democratic Voters Invertebrate Registering Act is waiting in the wings while we speak.
The Betterment of Tree Bark amendment is waiting for the funding.
The Research on Eye Blink Technology could be the largest funded program in the history of the country.
The Mud Technology and Other Related Wet Dirt Act is being written while we speak.
The Please Tell Madonna That We All Know What Her Crotch Looks Like Amendment (which I totally support) will finally get the recognition and funding that it deserves.
That money is gone like the money I loaned my kid to get his car fixed.
By Bruno
September 30, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Are we sure we need to give away 700 billion dollars?
TOJ—If we could be sure that the “final bailout figure” was limited to $700,000,000,000, I might support it more. From what I’ve been reading, the credit mess is much more far-reaching, with the final damages tallying into the trillions. Personally, I think we’re screwed either way.
By Truth
September 30, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
Maybe if we killed all the Demoracks. Yeah, that’s it. Maybe let them live and just disband the party and revoke their right to vote. Their ideas are all so stoooooooopid! Only Republicans have good ideas. The Wall Street mess is all the Democrats fault. They spend your money on crack. Republicans would have stopped this crisis from coming if only there were no Democracks. Nothing is ever the fault of the Republcians.
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Nah. I gotta draw the line here. you can’t tell me that this will actually cost less than the government says. My favorite line applies: How long have I been asleep?
I didn’t say it would cost less - I said that the gov’t could possibly recoup its expenditure (and, possibly, make a profit on some of them such as the stake in AIG).
Fact is, the way the deal is currently structured, Paulson wouldn’t get all of it in one go - he gets $250B immediately, with the ability to get up to another $100B before the end of 2009. The remainder has to be approved by Congress in another spending bill.
and, lest you forget, here are a few other things your tax dollars go to:
clean water and air, safe drugs (and doctors, for that matter), food inspection, interstates, bridges, air traffic safety, the App Trail and other national parks and reserves, education, emergency services, the armed services …
By The Other Jack
October 1, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Looks like the Big Joke is back.
Bruno
Yep. There are too many really smart people who are saying that the sky is not falling.
USinUK
No comment about the Madonna Bill? That was for you. First you start screwing up perfectly good lies and then you don’t laugh at the Madonna jokes. Who are you and what have you done with UsinnerU?
I heard an interview last night that just mentioned the cost of Universal Health Care. It was 100 billion dollars. Can that be right? Could we have a 700% overrun in health care and still everyone gets free health care for the cost of this credit bail out?
I’m all for Universal Health Care, but we have never been able to pay for it. And now like magic, we produce this much money. I know that is $100 billion / year, but this would pay for 7 years of health care.
I know you are much more familiar than I am with economics, but this smells pretty bad.
By Gale
October 1, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
USinUK and Mara, what do you think about the idea being floated that we should instead pay off the delinquent mortgages instead. This would, purportedly, restore the asset loses for the mortgage lenders.
I confess I am not in favor of this because it is too Marxist for me.
By TheBigJoke
October 1, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Aren’t Deregulate Everything, It is Business’s God-Given Right to Screw America Republicans responsible for the state of affairs on Wall Street, just like back in the 1920s?
By grelican
October 1, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
Really… who cares?
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
No comment about the Madonna Bill? That was for you. First you start screwing up perfectly good lies and then you don’t laugh at the Madonna jokes. Who are you and what have you done with UsinnerU?
I DID laugh, actually - and was going to send a link of an even scarier picture than Madge’s crotch (The Daily Mirror had a picture of her arm - all veiny and sinewey and just plain gross) … got sidetracked by stuff going on at work … sorry … but yes, I did laugh at that one …
Yep. There are too many really smart people who are saying that the sky is not falling.
gah. if this isn’t falling, I don’t know what is. did you ever see the first Fantastic 4 - the scene with the firetruck falling over the Brooklyn Bridge before elastic guy saves it … we’re the truck. we’re seriously teetering and hanging on to the ladder …
will this bill prevent a recession? nope. but this bill could prevent the recession for lasting a lot longer and being a lot worse.
I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making about health care - could you clarify a bit before I weight in??
By JokesOn
October 1, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
TOJ,
Looks like the Big Joke is back.
Talk about being up someones a$$…get out of mine and leave me out of you childish bs. You are an effing manipulating liar trying get undeserved sympathy.
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
Gale -
what do you think about the idea being floated that we should instead pay off the delinquent mortgages instead
well, it would probably cost less, but I don’t think it would have as immediate an effect on liquidity.
and I agree with you on the Marxist aspect of it
what I would like to see is some kind of legal option for the people who were the victims of predatory banking (not necessarily a pay-back from the gummint, but either an extension of the statute of limitations or some kind of legal aid program)
By Gale
October 1, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
::testosterone alert::
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Jokes -
I think TOJ is referring to the sidelinesniper:
By TheBigJoke October 1, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Aren’t Deregulate Everything, It is Business’s God-Given Right to Screw America Republicans responsible for the state of affairs on Wall Street, just like back in the 1920s?
we’re all playing nice in the sandbox this week … it’s wednesday and I’d like to see us make it through until Friday without any major blow-ups. too much crap going on right now for bickering.
:-)
By The Other Jack
October 1, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
USinUK
This is going to pass. I don’t think that 95% or Americans even come close to understanding anything about it.
I just looked at the cost of Universal Health Care and it would actually be a lot more expensive. I found an article that said that it would cost only about 45 billion a year, but when I looked closer, that was to give everybody who don’t already have it, i.e. another HUGE welfare system. So at that rate offering 45 million people with 45 billion bucks, to actually insure the country, it would cost 300 billion, but even those numbers don’t add up. That would mean that everybo0dy gets 1000 dollars a year for health care.
So never mind.
My cat is driving me crazy. I have a little nine month old adolescent male that has discovered varmints. Every few days, I wake up to a circus in the kitchen. That wasn’t so bad. I could usually coax him to take the chipmunk outside. But last week, I started getting flies everywhere. I found a small rat he had killed and had disposed of the body in a large house plant. Since then I have found two dead chipmunks, one under my bed and the other under my editing workstation.
I got to those soon enough, but I am starting to smell another one. Dead animals rotting under my furniture. This cannot be good.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
Truth~great idea! Democrats are who held the black man down for over 100 years in the south. 13 million deaths? Jim Crow? Segregation? All Democratic ideas. Truth, jump on the conservative bus brother! Republicans the PARTY OF LINCOLN!
By Gale
October 1, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
victims of predatory banking I can agree with helping these folks to some extent. It is morally wrong to prey on people who are so dumb that they think they can afford a $600k house on a $60k/year salary when they have 3 children, and oh, you only have to pay the interest on the loan. Somewhere they also missed the class in reading all the tiny print on the contract. But, yes, we can help stupid people who made dumb mistakes. There was already movement in Congress to do something there.
I would also like to see something done to help people with major illness that causes them to lose their home. Universal health care? No, not exactly. I think one of the reasons health care is so expensive today is because we can care for people with expensive illnesses when they would have died not so long ago.
But back to the issue, I would like Congress to focus on the one problem and stop trying to put everything into this bill. This is the thing business is usually better at. Solve this problem and don’t bring all these other issues into the discussion. It is not that they are not important. It is that they are delaying this solution that is needed quickly.
By JokesOn
October 1, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
I think TOJ is referring to the sidelinesniper
That would make sense IF he did not always accuse me of the snipering, and TheBigJoke posted as such before TOJs comments.
TOJ has proven each and every time that he cannot discuss with me civilly and I am done with it. Do not talk to me about being civil: just scroll up and read each encounter with him and how he gets personal and then turns it around on me. The guy is damaged.
By The Other Jack
October 1, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
Gale
Nah. I knew it was him that used my other nic. I mentioned his name and he immediately showed up. I have proven my point. That’s all I needed to do.
USinUK
what I would like to see is some kind of legal option for the people who were the victims of predatory banking (not necessarily a pay-back from the gummint, but either an extension of the statute of limitations or some kind of legal aid program)
Now THAT I understand. It just seems like there is such an enormous amount of money. I can’t even grasp a single billion. 700 of ‘em?
If the problems were the bad paper from bad loans, and it is cheaper to just pay off the loans, why don’t we just pay off the loans? It is Marxism, but it seems like the way we are doing it is that we are using Marxism with an administration cost.
I just heard the new bill is 450 pages long. The original idea took three. Nobody understood the three page version. It’s no wonder that most Americans are really starting to hate our government.
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
This is going to pass.
yes, the question is, do we want it to pass like a tiny kidney stone (painful, but won’t kill you) or a kidney stone the size of a dime. if we don’t pass some kind of bill this week, it’s going to be the dime-size option.
I don’t think that 95% or Americans even come close to understanding anything about it.
and I 100% agree with you.
So at that rate offering 45 million people with 45 billion bucks, to actually insure the country, it would cost 300 billion, but even those numbers don’t add up. That would mean that everybo0dy gets 1000 dollars a year for health care.
$1000/year for health care is actually pretty darned cheap. as a woman of child-bearing age, my health care was $275/mo in 2004 ($3300/year). if that covers everything, including meds, emergency services, regular health checkups and necessary screening - geezlouise, sign me the heck up!
My cat is driving me crazy. I have a little nine month old adolescent male that has discovered varmints.
normally, I’d say that’s a sign that he loves you and is providing for you. but if he’s burying things, I don’t know what that means (I think he’s saying “get your own danged chipmunk!”)
god, I miss having a cat in the house - although, mine were always housecats since I lived off busy streets.
Dead animals rotting under my furniture. This cannot be good.
urgh. no. especially in the still-warm GA weather. yuck.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Oh eldest of 8th graders! YOU ARE truly A (DUMBASS)! Want someone to pick on “the only kid in grade school with a learners permit?” Good Morning you DUMBASS! Hope you are having a good week! You are so insecure the use of the word joke sends you into a ranting tissy. And some wonder why? I will answer them! It’s because, you are a (DUMBASS)! Did your momma slap you on the back of the head because you are stupid? Was she mad when you flunked kindergarten? I be she was! (Oh, you brought family into this (DUMBASS), not me! So STFU, be a man and ddon’t respond to this you piece of lint on the belly button of life!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Oh eldest of 8th graders! YOU ARE truly A (DUMBASS)! Want someone to pick on “the only kid in grade school with a learners permit?” Good Morning you DUMBASS! Hope you are having a good week! You are so insecure the use of the word joke sends you into a ranting tissy. And some wonder why? I will answer them! It’s because, you are a (DUMBASS)! Did your momma slap you on the back of the head because you are stupid? Was she mad when you flunked kindergarten? I be she was! (Oh, you brought family into this (DUMBASS), not me! So STFU, be a man and ddon’t respond to this you piece of lint on the belly button of life!
By Gale
October 1, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
TOJ, aw, your cat loves you. Look on the bright side. He keeps down the number of live critters in your house. I once lived in a 100+ year old farm house with too many tiny access points from the outside. A good mouser is indespensible. My protector once nailed a bat in my bedroom.
By The Other Jack
October 1, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
GtG
*Truth, jump on the conservative bus brother! Republicans the PARTY OF LINCOLN! *
LOL!!
Only you would come up with that.
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Gale -
I would also like to see something done to help people with major illness that causes them to lose their home.
the bankruptcy bill of 2005 screwed those people to the wall. Congress (both Dems and GOPs) refused to pass amendments that would shelter people with serious illnesses and people who have a spouse in the reserves from the new bankruptcy law. bad bill. bad bad bad.
I would like Congress to focus on the one problem and stop trying to put everything into this bill. This is the thing business is usually better at. Solve this problem and don’t bring all these other issues into the discussion.
again, this is a “we need a bigger boat” size problem - we can’t just focus on 1 thing when there are so many contributors. while we need to keep it from being a Christmas Tree, we also need to attack the issue on multiple fronts.
By JokesOn
October 1, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Nah. I knew it was him that used my other nic. I mentioned his name and he immediately showed up. I have proven my point. That’s all I needed to do.
I lurk each day idiot.
As for the topic, I am far from convinced that the bailout has to happen in the manner they are pushing it. Everything I read says the vast majority of this mess has little impact on the economy as a whole. We are primarily dealing with derivatives that are so removed from the actual mortgages that it is a reach to connect the two.
The other thing that really bothers me is that not a single person, including Paulson himself, can say how this will affect you or I directly. Not a single example. The things they allude to are: it will be harder to get credit, it will be harder to buy a house (for now), it will be harder….which might be a good thing.
By USinUK
October 1, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
I just heard the new bill is 450 pages long. The original idea took three. Nobody understood the three page version. It’s no wonder that most Americans are really starting to hate our government.
yeah, but the 3-page bill sucked. I’ll take a 450-page bill that’s a good, water-tight bill over a 3-page bill that leaks like a sieve.
If the problems were the bad paper from bad loans, and it is cheaper to just pay off the loans, why don’t we just pay off the loans?
because it’s going to take too long to unwind that way. the economy needs liquidity now - not in 6-12 months.
I can’t even grasp a single billion. 700 of ‘em?
picture the Pentagon. and all the tanks, jets and submarines, bullets, guns, grenades and missiles. with all our servicemen and -women standing on them. that’s $700B.
By Bruno
October 1, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
yes, the question is, do we want it to pass like a tiny kidney stone (painful, but won’t kill you) or a kidney stone the size of a dime. if we don’t pass some kind of bill this week, it’s going to be the dime-size option.
USinUK—I think that a good argument could be constructed that it might be better for the long run if we (collectively) took the credit hit now, but kept the government out of it. I’m extremely uncomfortable with the idea of the Feds acquiring the assets of private corporations. Since when has the gov’t ever managed ANYTHING efficiently?? I have a bad vision of layers and layers of new bureaucracy created along with uber-powerful appointment-only political positions. I think it would be unwise to concentrate so much power into the hands of just a few individuals. Just my opinion.
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
JOKESON? What does the eldest of 8th graders mean by “I lurk every day idiot”? Does that mean you are an idiot and lurk a lot? Or that you are an everyday idiot that lurks? Or an announcement that You are the the LURK EVERY DAY IDIOT? What ever the case may be, it’s pretty darn obvious that you are indeed the only kid in grade school with a learners permit, and, and, well you know what I am a going to say, don’t you? YOU DOUBLE DAMN (DUMBASS)! yeah!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
Oh, grade school driver, On topic, you’re an oxygen thief, and a (DUMBASS)!!!! Have a great weekend! (to everyone else, maybe he will think it’s Friday and not log on tomorrow!) WOOT!
By Gandalf, the Grey
October 1, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
Oh, grade school driver, On topic, you’re an oxygen thief, and a (DUMBASS)!!!! Have a great weekend! (to everyone else, maybe he will think it’s Friday and not log on tomorrow!) WOOT!
By The Other Jack
October 1, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m tired of thinking about it. I have a client that is a multi-millionaire. He called yesterday, wanting me to produce an infomercial for him. (gak) I told him I was upset about all this. He said, Jack, there’s nothing we can do about that, don’t worry about it. I guess that is why he is a millionaire and I am not. He understands his limitations.
Hey, I bought stock at your advice yesterday and NBC Nightly News ran a story on comfort foods last night. Maybe you are not so bad after all.
urgh. no. especially in the still-warm GA weather. yuck.
Yea. Put on top of that a 140 year old farm house that has one window air conditioning unit. When I leave this office, the rest of the house is a potpourri of different smells and none of them good.
Gale
He’s a great cat. He looks like a Russian Blue, but he is really just an Ally Cat that I rescued. He kept losing the little round tag that I would buy for him at the pet store. The last time I went back, they were out of the little round tags and the only one they had was a huge red heart that is about half the size of his head. Now all my neighbors call him the L-o-o-o-ve Cat.
By American Virgin
October 2, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
We expect kids to graduate high school—the same expectation should be there for waiting—even if they don’t live up to it. The problem is too many parents would seem hypocritical telling their children to practice something they don’t or didn’t. But we should do it anyway. Virginity will never be considered a curse—though, if not prepared (which i don’t understand the cart before the horse) has proven to be. I work with many tweens and teens WHO can’t believe that I am a virgin. GASP! At 26! And I’m not “ugly” or… It’s funny to hear their reactions and sad. These are our babies ladies and gentlemen. Teen pregnancy on the rise—STDs everywhere…Um…I am working for CHANGE. Please help! americanvirgin [at] excite [dot] com youtube [dot] com [forward slash] virginandthecity