AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > September > 26 > Entry
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
What is wrong with this picture? Three young men, ages 16, 19 and 20, commit to respect themselves and the opposite sex enough that they’ll wait until marriage to have sex - and are mocked for it on national television.
When host Russell Brand of MTV’s VMA awards repeatedly hammered the Jonas Brothers, he made it that much more difficult for those watching to make the right choice. The natural temptations of dating are tough enough without pre-marital abstinence being derided as “crazy” instead of applauded as the healthiest and wisest choice.
Both youth and adults need to hear the overwhelming evidence that waiting until marriage is the wise choice. The Heritage Foundation looked at 21 studies and found that 16 documented positive results of forgoing, reducing, and delaying sexual activity. Some of the more obvious negative results of sex before marriage were greater risks of STD’s and out-of-wedlock childbearing. But the studies also found lowered grades, and lowered psychological and emotional well-being.
My own research backs this up. In nationally representative surveys of 15 to 20- year-olds for “For Young Men Only” and “For Young Women Only” — my books to help teen guys and girls understand the opposite sex — the young people themselves expressed a significant emotional impact of sex outside of marriage.
For example, although the guys admitted they were probably the ones pushing for sex, two-thirds also said that once they got it they began to doubt whether they could trust the girl again. And although the girls said they had some positive feelings after beginning the sexual relationship (such as greater feelings of closeness) 82 percent also began feeling insecure, clingy and possessive. Both responses arise directly from knowing that they are not in a committed marriage relationship.
And “waiting until you’re older” doesn’t fix it. In a thorough 2008 Rutgers study, Dr. David Popenoe confirmed earlier findings of the negative emotional results of adult cohabitation, most poignantly including a greater likelihood of divorce once the couple eventually gets married.
A 2004 Gallup poll found that 56 percent of teens believe “people should abstain from sex until marriage.” Prior to becoming jaded by the culture, teens recognize that just because the ideal is difficult doesn’t mean it shouldn’t remain the ideal.
Rebuttal
As a mother of three, I’m appalled by the extremes of the hook-up culture that surrounds me. However, if we assume that virginity until marriage is something people should aspire to, then we assume all virgins are the same.
Should a 15-year-old girl have a sex life? Most of us would give a resounding “no.” Should a responsible single professional have a sex life? Given that the average age of marriage in this country is around 26 for men and 25 for women, I’d say that someone old enough to vote, drink, rent a car and buy a house is old enough to determine if remaining a virgin fits in with graduate school, career goals and other aspirations.
There is nothing “crazy” about choosing to stay chaste, and VMA awards host Russell Brand is an opportunistic spotlight grabber. Yet let’s not pretend that there isn’t some PR calculation on the part of Team Jonas as well here (their handlers, if not the boys themselves). One hopes the group is prepared for public scrutiny of their behavior, especially if they fall off the virginity wagon. Or should I say when they fall off; even those enamored of the concept of promise rings concede that statistically such programs simply delay sexual activity for an additional 18 months.
Now a year and a half of additional chastity is nothing to sneeze at—it buys a kid a lot of growing-up time. What it doesn’t seem to buy virginity-pledge kids, though, is personal responsibility. Even those Heritage Foundation folks Shaunti cites admit that “pledges are less likely to use contraception at initial intercourse.” So young people who have publicly renounced premarital sex by signing a pledge and putting on a ring are less likely to use birth control when they finally succumb to their hormones? Yeah, that sounds right.
Promoting self-awareness and self-protection isn’t the same as advocating promiscuity. On the other hand, an abstinence-only plan for all single people isn’t merely an unrealistic expectation; it gives strength to policies that ban access to birth control information and services for those most in need of them.
Now that’s crazy.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By LMCLAO!
September 26, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
HAHAHAHAHA! Stop it! OMG, we’ve solved all the world’s problems, so let’s go back to obssessing over other people’s hoo has. What could BE more fun? HAHAHA! TOOOOOOO funny!
By Gale
September 26, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
I leave obsessing over teen sex to the parents of said teens.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
Gale, from yesterday, the cover 3 “gifted” classes and one main stream class a day, and maybe a special. By the way I hate that word gifted! It is so elitist. But my kids are getting what I consider an acceptable education becuase they fall into this category. I really, really don’t like the administartion. Teachers are fine. My son is lucky enough to have a published PHD teaching him Social Studies. I am sure he has an OBAMA sticker on his car, but he doesn’t bring it into the classroom, like my son will have to face once he gets into college.
On topic, George Michael put it best, “sex is natural sex is fun, sex is best when it’s one on one”.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
With an occasional 2 on 1 thrown in for spice! :-)!!!!!!
By Wills
September 26, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t the sane answer be for people to make their own decisions on when and whether to start their sex lives (a decision in which what their family background will obviously have an impact) and then keep that decision PRIVATE? What business is it of anyone else?
It’s not virginity but the public declaration of it (given all the opportunities for social coercion and just plain deceit) that is ridiculous and rightly drew Russell Brand’s satire. What next, chastity belts?
By Gale
September 26, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
2 on 1 always sounds like fun until I think too hard about managing it. Then it just sounds complicated.
“Gifted” students usually get enough teacher attention. “Challenged” students usually get enough attention. The ones in between get left to fend for themselves as long as they don’t make waves. How hard it is to be a student who is bright, but not bright enough for the special attention.
Somehow, I think some of the lurkers will have to come out if this topic is to get any attention. I think most of us, since I have been watching, have voiced opinion on this and mostly, we don’t care. Virginity is overrated.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
of course they should aspire to, but they should also be given the understanding of all facets involved; not just abstinence-only.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Sex should be a crime until your say, 23 or married. Open franchises were offenders go (like DUI SCHOOL) to get educated about sex. I will teach the girls 18-23 :-)! (just kiddin!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
of course they should aspire to, but they should also be given the understanding of all facets involved; not just abstinence-only.
Oh, oldest of 8th graders, who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it! (DUMBASS!)
By GOB
September 26, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
And who do you think pays for welfare and healthcare for the baby that is born when a parent doesnt teach their child at home?
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
Oh, oldest of 8th graders, who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who.
I would not expect you to provide squat; just like on the blog.
Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
Just so you can sit around playing xbox high while your live in girlfriend takes care of your kids. You are part of the problem: another parent that teaches their kid hate and disrespect. You are a dropout with a child. Sad.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
Guy, the personal attacks are wearing thin.
By Mara
September 26, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
What a rediculous topic. The problems Shaunti associates with premarital sex are more likely to be issues related to maturity, not to marital status.
Her examples are all pulled from the under-21 set, so I have to question her belief that regardless of age, regardless of maturity, regardless of ones self-esteem and confidence, regardless of a couples committment to each other…unless the government documents that committment, your relationship is dooooooooomed.
I do think that people should hold off until they’re mature enough to handle the physical and emotional results of intercourse, regardless of marital status. I mean, you can get married in Alabama at he age of 14 (as long as your folks agree). That doesn’t mean you’re ready for sex. But according to Shaunti once the government’s been notified and the preacher’s paid, everything will be hunky-dory.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
who is going to pay for that? Me, that’s who. Stupid Stupid Stupid. Teach them at home, leave my tax dollar out of it!
And who do you think pays for welfare and healthcare for the baby that is born when a parent doesnt teach their child at home?
Clueless..fill me oh wise one. Obama will have them all cut out of thier mothers 2-9 months after conception.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
We put too much emphasis on sex and virginity. The relationship problems are because immature people (teens) place too much emphasis on something that shouldn’t mean anything at their age. Sure, it can be intimate and relationship fulfilling. But I say protect them and let those hormones fly without the burden of a relationship. (Note: I do not have children!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
Oh eldest 8th grader, you write exactly how I would expect someone with more time in grade school that most tenured teachers! Excellent points, as usual! Nice use of the semi-colon! I think they teach that is 9th grade, so I forgive you. Oh,I see you even attempted to used a full colon! You are such an English wizard!
So, PLEASE (DUMBASS)!!! STFU! Thanks in advance for your compliance!
By Original Rick
September 26, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
We can emphasize staying chaste as much as is possible but it finally up to the person. My daughter is 20, as junior at UGA, has been with her boyfriend for 6 years, and they both are abstaining. We are proud of them.
However, in a talk I had with her a few years ago, I emphasized that no matter her choices, she was our loved one, and her mother and I supported her, no matter what.
I recall my first time: I was 17, stupid and I immediately wanted to do it again. It was GREAT! I was smart enough, tho, to have protection.
I have realized the big problem with teens and their hormones is what I refer to as the three F’s: on a Saturday night, f*ing is fun and it is free. That is why I am for universal availability of birth control.
We need to realize it is going to happen!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
So you are all about putting condums in the nurses office in grade school? Middle School? High School? Oh and nurse should give young girls birth control pills along with their RIDLIN?
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
*“your kids” should be “her kids” *
Ahhh. So, they are her kids that you are smoking pot around. Gotcha- that is much better!
Oh,I see you even attempted to used a full colon!
Nope. You are the only full colon here.
Try spell checking your posts before you sling that crap. Too much to ask from a little dead-beat-dad-pothead? Thought so.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Good point, Gandalf. It is a good idea to have condoms in grade school, available for the asking. But they should be high quality and not subject to breaking. And anyone picking one up should have to demonstrate they know how to use it. There should be no judgement from the provider of the condom. But birth control pills… no. These are drugs and drugs should require a doctor. As long as the pill has been available, we still have long term effect questions about these drugs. Children at puberty have hormonal influences that may have not been adequately tested with these drugs since they are really intended for mature women. No, I don’t want the school handing out drugs.
The problem is we put too much emphasis on sex and pairing up at a young age. Why should teens begin dating at 13, 14? It is too young to pair up. But eveolution being slow, their hormones are telling them to have sex.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Disrespect? Is that the same as question authority? Because I do in fact teach that, even that the question me
…that ?!?!the?!?! question me…
Idiot.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
Gale,
The problem is we put too much emphasis on sex and pairing up at a young age. Why should teens begin dating at 13, 14? It is too young to pair up. But evolution being slow, their hormones are telling them to have sex.
I agree, sort of.
I think the emphasis they get is 90% from movies/tv and is the wrong type of info. There needs to be more of an emphasis on sex by the parents than the outside world/media, but that takes a real relationship with our kids.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
JokesOn, I agree about tv and movies giving them ideas. I really hate the kid programming that shows kids in bands. But the reaality is they are surrounded by it. How many cartoon characters get boyfriends/girlfriends. Why? When a three year old is all excited about Hannah Montana, something is wrong. When they start that young, of course they will want to try all the grownup fun at an early age. You are completely right about parent-child relationship. The tv does not make a good parent.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Gale,
I think that the main hold-up is that parents do not want to think about their kids as sexual beings and it freaks them out, or they are just plain lazy.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Oh eldest of 8th graders, thank so much for pointing out that I forgot a y! It so kind for someone with the learning disablities you have shown us here over time to point out my flaws. the difference between you and I is that I point out known flaws that you have, you merely project your anger at your own pot-head, dead-beat father onto me. Sorry about your upbringing, but that explains the amount of time you spent in grade school!
PARENTS: KEEP YOUR KIDS OFF POT! :-)
AS for you seeing children as sexual beings, your just sick! I asked you nicely you perverted pot smoking parented eldest of 8th graders, perhaps I need to ask again? STFU you silly thinker of children as a sexual beings ULTRA-(DUMBASS!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
Gale, I think Jokeson is a (DUMBASS)!
By Archie
September 26, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
My answer to the topic question is yes but if you fall short of that goal don’t hurt yourself. In other words protect yourself. Andrea takes the topic off in a different direction because the question is not if a grown person can have premarital sex but the question is should people try to remain virgins until marriage and my answer is yes for the same reasons that she gave in her second paragraph. If you’re old enough to drink,vote, etc then you can stay a virgin if you want to and nobody should bash you for that choice. The word aspire is in the question not the word mandatory. This topic is a non-argument the way it’s phrased. If the question was are people wrong for having sex out of wedlock then you have an argument but the question asks about a personal choice. Andrea is reaching for an argument with her next to last statement about giving strength to policies that ban birth control information. People can get birth control information, I mean there’s no cure for carelessness or stupidity.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Good Stuff Archie! Thanks!
By Sunshine
September 26, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Someone get GTG a muzzle and a padded room, gezzzz!
JokesOn, I think you are right, the talk about birds and bees needs to be an open and frank area of communication way before puberty. They need to know these things aren’t “gross”. Now every kid will snicker now and then but if you take the time and talk to them when a problem/situation arises hopefully they will come to the parent to get advice or help. Springing the “Sex Talk” on them at 14-15 is just too late to make an impact.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
It so kind for someone with the learning disablities you have shown us here over time to point out my flaws. (Do you mean disabilities?)
I remember your child/daughter (you live in west Virginia by chance? Have a sister/daughter is quite sick) coming on here and talking about your pot habit and gaming all the time. Sounds like you should get back on the meds and off the pot.
As for kids not being sexual beings: Thank you for exhibiting exactly what I was talking about. Adults having kids who are still kids themselves and cannot have an adult discussion about actual sexuality.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Gale if we can stop the nurses from giving out BC pills, can we stop them from giving out RIDLIN as well? Now that you put it so concisely, I concur we need condums in Middle and High Schools, not on the bandwagon for grade school just yet, but I am learning.
Oh, Good Morning SUNSHINE! xxoo to you too! Glad you’re sticking up for your buddy, that eldest of all 8th graders! Have a great weeekend!
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Hello, everybody. Just checking in.
Seems another subject that is out of touch, considering what is going on with the economy and the availability of gasoline.
This is one of those subjects that is controversial because of the fact that many people want to take the example of bad parenting and apply that standard to all the kids in school.
Yes, kids are going to have sex if they are not taught why they shouldn’t. Back in the 60s when I was in school, there were always the girls that were known for being easy and there were always the guys that were ready to jump in the sack with anything with a vagina. I’m sure that has always been the case.
But all kids aren’t like that and to tell the kids all the problems of having sex at a young age and then supply them with birth control because “they are going to do it anyway” is a sure way to let your kids know that you don’t trust them and you don’t think that they have the self control to say no.
But Andrea actually said something that made sense. Most people do not get married until their late 20s and to expect an adult to refrain from sex until marriage is simply unrealistic.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
I’m not saying all kids will or even want to have sex in their teens. What is important is that they know there is nothing wrong or icky about it, and that there are definite consequenses to unprotected sex. In the 60 and 70s, we opened Pandora’s box. We, as a generation, ignored the consequenses. Now we know better. A kid needs all the information to feel good about saying no. He/she has to know it is a rational, considered decision, not just what he/she is supposed to do because someone in authority said so. Then, when the peer group teases, the barbs won’t stick.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Oh, eldest of 8th graders, thanks for raising the bar again. Some poster (maybe you in disguise?) alleges I smoke pot and game. How very intelligent and mature of you to assume that to be true. After all, everything you read on the Internet is factual! It has to be true or the Internet police will come get you. Just another fact the reiterate my contention that you are indeed a (DUMBASS)!
There is a group called MBLA that you could join, I hear they would like guys like you in their organization. I can’t join because, well, I would get the membership list and hunt each one down. They don’t want that.
I think you owe the state of West Virginia an apology. At least the people of that great state had the (balls) to leave the Virginians when they seceded from the Union of the USA. Something I am sure you ancestors would find appalling.
Now for a third time I ask you nicely, STFU you redneck, confederate flag waving MBLA wanna be, (DUMBASS)! and please go away! You sound more mentally challenged in every post! Go play in traffic, at least you have the UGA game to watch this weekend! GO DAWGS! (sorry if I insulted any Dawg fans by associating JOKEON with UGA. He isn’t an ALUMNI, I just know how (DUMBASS)!es like him love to watch football!)
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
TOJ, excellent post! Thanks!
By Mara
September 26, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Archie - If the question was are people wrong for having sex out of wedlock then you have an argument but the question asks about a personal choice.
Hear, hear!!
what I wonder about is why they chose to use “aspire” as they did. Not only does it imply a morality/immorality choice, it also makes for awkward reading because it seems to say that the goal is to acheive virginity not to maintain that state until marriage. Personally, I achieved virginity before I was even born so I never “aspired” to it.
IMO, it should have been phrased “Should people aspire to REMAIN virgin until marriage”.
Have a great weekend.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Good point all Gale! Thank You! Nothing wrong with waiting a little. It’s still good even 30 years after high school! But I like that George Michael line ” sex in natural, sex is fun, sex is best when it one on one!” He’s such a f*, but can sing his butt off!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Some poster (maybe you in disguise?) alleges I smoke pot and game. How very intelligent and mature of you to assume that to be true.
Your sister came on the board and said differently, then you ran away. LOL
Now go away and let the adults talk.
By Gale
September 26, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Well, I think I have had all I can take of this silly topic for this week. Everyone have a good weekend.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
8th Grader Squared, I do let the adults talk (DUMBASS)! Now STFU please and go play with your Ken doll, and put some clothes on him for Christ’s sake!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
8th Grader Squared, I do let the adults talk (DUMBASS)!
Well, thanks for unintentionally acknowledging that you are not one of the adults.
Now go look at the sears catalog lingerie section some more while the adults talk. And for gods sake, stop wearing your mom’s lingerie!
By Archie
September 26, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
I don’t think you should cheer me on too much Gandalf because I didn’t wait until marriage to have sex but as a christian I should have. My initial answer is based on my religious teaching but my secular answer is that grown folk can do whatever they want. I think people who want to remain virgins should do that and not be picked on because of that choice but I will say that I know some people over 40 who have never been married and I know they aren’t virgins. Andrea does not say no to the topic question but she changes the argument into a debate about abstinence-only and that’s something slightly different than what was asked. This topic is hard to debate unless you change the topic question.
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Gale
Each kid is different and I believe that kids having sex at an early age is very harmful, even with protection. There is a lot of psychological baggage with sex, particularly with very young participants. Girls mature much faster than boys so they usually end up having sex with older and sometime much older boys. So by bringing sex into the mix, it denies many girls that innocent, wonderful puppy love that is so great for young teens.
Let them be kids. Let girls be with guys that are their age that might not be as prone to pressure the younger girls into having sex. Let kids learn to respect each other and not just respect what is between their respective legs.
It isn’t about morals as it is about keeping a kid’s life sweet and simple as long as possible.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Now STFU please and go play with your Ken doll, and put some clothes on him for Christ’s sake!
It is my voodoo doll. Ken looks just like you, seeing as neither of you have any balls;) Here comes a stab to your left side….watch-out.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Now come on Tenured 8th grader! Be honest! You know that is not true! Once again you are projecting your weaknesses onto me. I have balls and no Ken doll, you have Ken Doll and …well, please STFU and let the grown ups discuss this weeks issue. Now behave like a good 8th grader and be seen and not heard! (DUMBASS)! (I tried, but he really is such a (DUMBASS)! I can’t resist pointing that out!)
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
It isn’t about morals as it is about keeping a kid’s life sweet and simple as long as possible.
I agree, but not to an unnatural extreme. Therapists everywhere will tell you that kids are sexual beings very early on. Denying that is detrimental to their well being and ability to make their own decisions based on real info.
I have met a lot of adults that have had a lot of sex, yet know very little about it.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
GTG,
Stealing my quips as your own? I guess you ran out of wit when you lit that last blunt. If you had balls you would try to join the discussion instead of being a little twerp showing your stoner friends “Look at what i just told these people on the blog! I am so cool.” LOL
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
JOKESON? Like yourself? But truthfully, does lots of sex include that which you do with no one else in the room? We all know you need a therapist. Which is the same as witch doctor, or shaman, to the poor godless people of much of modern society. have met a lot of adults that have had a lot of sex, yet know very little about it.That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you utter, and that is saying a lot!
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry. I’m not going to encourage 12-13 year olds to have sex just because someone says they are sexual beings.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
Eldest of 8th graders! Tell me how did it feel to able to drive and still be in middle school? Was that when you found out what a true (DUMBASS)! you were!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
TOJ! Thanks!
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 26, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
Eldest of 8th Graders! When you go to MBLA meetings do they let you and your Ken doll play 8th grade? (DUMBASS)! pervert!
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry. I’m not going to encourage 12-13 year olds to have sex just because someone says they are sexual beings.
Where did anyone say encourage?
Can you once not add info to a discussion (where was “encourage” used?) and instead reply to what is actually there? You treat them age appropriate. That works both ways, meaning you do not try to keep them in never-never land beyond what is natural.
GTG,
That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard you utter
Yet, it applies to you. You have shown little understanding of humans, much less human sexuality.
By JokesOn
September 26, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
GTG,
Tell me how did it feel to able to drive and still be in middle school?
You are still too stupid to do the math.
By Phyllis
September 26, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Yes. Especially women should be virgins until they are married, and then dispense only the minimal amount of sex possible to secure the husbands present and future assets. Train him, leash him, break his spirit. Get diamonds and white gold. Get a nice car and a house he can’t afford. Drive away his friends you don’t like. Change his diet. Decide what he likes to do on the weekend and then tell him. Throw away his wardrobe and buy only what you want to see him wear. If he rebels on any command, threaten to never give him sex again. Threaten to never let him see his children again. Make him sleep on the sofa at least once a week to keep him in line. Get everything in your name. If he finds a friendly woman to talk to who does not treat him like a piece of property and a slave, slash her tires and take a whole year of sex away from him. Real women never give it away for free.
By The Other Jack
September 26, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Where did anyone say encourage?
We are talking about adolescents and sex. If you are not discouraging, you are encouraging.
Can you once not add info to a discussion (where was “encourage” used?) and instead reply to what is actually there?
Can you once reply to a response without having a chip on your shoulder the size of a Marta Bus? Judging from today’s posts: apparently not.
That works both ways, meaning you do not try to keep them in never-never land beyond what is natural.
Actually never-never land is exactly where 12-13 year olds need to be. They will have their whole lives to be “sexual beings. Let them be kids. Let them hold hands. Let them dare to kiss. Personally, I’m not concerned with how soon they become proficient at sex. I think it is nice that they know little about it. What is considered “natural” in your circles is considered bad behavior in mine.
Take a field trip down to the Fulton County Health Department on an average day. You will find plenty of 12-13 year olds that know all about sex. But of course they ARE at the health department, so you might want to consider that teaching them to wait for a few years could be considered good parenting.
By USinUK
September 28, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
hey you - I didn’t read through last week’s posts … how is your girlfriend? I hope she’s on the mend. :-)
with everything going on in the world rght now (especially with the federal bailout potentially adding another 7-10k of debt to every household), I can’t BELIEVE that they picked abstinence as this week’s topic.
oh, wait. it was Shaunti’s turn for the kickoff, so of course they did. (and Russell Brand is a tw*t - we’re just glad to be rid of him here - almost as glad as we are to be rid of Posh and Becks - you can have all 3 of them - hell, we’ll throw Lilly Allen in for good measure)
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
UsinnerU
Thanks for your concern, sweety. Unfortunately, she died Monday night. Her family had a Memorial Service Tuesday night for her American Friends and then they all headed back to the Ukraine to bury her on Wednesday. Most of her family now lives in Greece, but the family cemetery is in the Ukraine. I just couldn’t go, because of a combination of work and simply can’t afford the trip.
I have a friend that has a small plane and a house on St. Simons so we headed down there Wednesday morning and i got back yesterday afternoon. I started drinking in the plane and sobered up on Thursday morning. Spent Thursday in a small motorboat, just cruising around the island. It helped, but I am still pretty tore up about it all.
Yesterday, i realized that I don’t know anything about the wreck, other than what her mom had told me and now, she is in Europe. I know that it was a White woman in a black Escalade that was owned by a church in Florida. Her Mom had said that she was denied bond on Monday, but her brother (who speaks a little better English) told me Tuesday night that she had been released on bond, so I don’t know what is going on.
That’s about it. This hurts worse than my divorce which I thought was as bad as it gets. NEVER think anything is as bad as it gets. There is always something worse.
Again, thanks for your concern. I kind-of want to drop it from the blog and I’m sure you can understand why. If I hear anything about the woman that hit her, I’ll tell you.
Have a good Sunday. I wanted to be alone, but my friends are not going to have any of that so I am waiting to be picked up to go to a Falcon watching party.
Talk to you soon,
Jack
By Ironman Carmichael
September 28, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
No one seems to remember the not-all-that-long-ago custom of taking an adolescent boy, usually on his 16th birthday, to a brothel to get him “indoctrinated.” The rationale was that the boy then would “know what to do on his wedding night.” This practice fell out of fashion when it became obvious that kids were adept at getting their own on-the-job training (so to speak).
But so many posts here are themselves so adolescent (why are homophobes so eager to publicize MBLA; you’d think they were getting kickbacks) that I don’t think an adult discussion of the subject matter is possible any longer. Go back to your playpens and have Mom turn on “Sesame Street” for you (or is Ernie and Bert’s obvious homosexual relationship too much for you to handle?).
By USinUK
September 28, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
TOJ -
omg - I’m so very sorry for your loss - know that you’re in my thoughts (as is her family)
By JokesOn
September 28, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
We are talking about adolescents and sex. If you are not discouraging, you are encouraging.
More (incorrect) binary thinking for us? How about a unbiased neutral factual basis as an alternative?
Is that something you can acknowledge and discuss? If so, great; but if not, why bother joining the discussion?
Can you once reply to a response without having a chip on your shoulder the size of a Marta Bus? Judging from today’s posts: apparently not. If you are talking about “poke the troll day,” does he really serve any other purpose other than poke? As for my response: meh, not harsh at all.
Actually never-never land is exactly where 12-13 year olds need to be. You know that many 13yos start their cycle that year. So great to know that you would have her freak out not knowing what is happening to her. That is just great.
But of course they ARE at the health department, so you might want to consider that teaching them to wait for a few years could be considered good parenting.
Once again, who is promoting them to be sexually active? (don’t tel me, back to binary)
Not much you can add to this discussion. In your view anything but “don’t have sex until marriage” and “don’t ask any questions either” is encouraging sexual activity.
I hope you do not have sex, seeing as you are not married. “Do as I say and not as I do” is all you have to add to your notions to bring the 50s full circle…
By Alexandrea
September 28, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
it is good if u wait until u are marryed so u like dont git deseases. i am wait until i am marryed yeah it seems forever but it is worth it.
By Alexandrea
September 28, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
it is good if u wait until u are marryed so u like dont git deseases. i am wait until i am marryed yeah it seems forever but it is worth it.
By RF
September 28, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Well, what a topic considering all that’s going on the world!!
TOJ- so, so very sorry for your loss. No matter how bad you think life has been, sudden, unexpected loss is always worse. Been there.
USinUK- you bring up an interesting point about the average marriage age. In the South, the belles have traditionally married right out of high school or college, so it’s easier for us to preach….err, I mean teach abstinence and expect it to happen. That’s changing as more young people wait to start careers, etc. before marrying.
I’d like to believe my sons will wait, but I’m realistic enough to know there is an even chance they won’t. I’m teaching them abstinence along with a good dose of reality. For me it’s about educating them fully about all the issues. As a parent, I’m trying my best to do that. I’m also not dousing them in guilt about it. The problem is that kids feel those urges long before they’re mature enough to think rationally. I want my boys to wait, but I refuse to make them feel guilty about wanting it. I think that’s where many abstinence programs fall short. They try to make kids feel guilty about what is a very natural desire. And, as a high school teacher, I see every single day how the hormones are attacking. Even the strongest can’t always fight it.
Realistically, I’m teaching them that it’s better to wait, but I fully intend to make sure they’re well versed in protection methods and willing to talk to potential partners beforehand. I live by the motto “life is what happens while you’re planning for something else” and I want my boys to know the whole story. They’re boys, and as Robin Williams said, “God gave man a brain and a penis, and only enough blood to run one at a time.” I’ve noticed in recent years that girls are much bolder and agressive publicly than they have ever been. I’m hoping that my boys can get through all the teenage pressures with their morals intact, but if not I don’t want to have to deal with a lifelong disease or becoming a teenage parent.
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
UsinnerU
Thanks. Good to have you back.
RF
Thanks for the thoughts. It’s been a rough week.
By The Other Jack
September 28, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
RF
I don’t expect kids to wait until they are married to have sex. I sure didn’t.
What I have a problem with is this trend to accept that 12-13 year olds are going to be having sex. Kids are enormously susceptible to what we tell them. If we tell every child all about birth control, then I believe that they will assume that we expect them to have sex. Yes, some children are sexually active at 12-13, but once again, we are teaching all children like they all have bad parents.
I would just like for folks to just give them a couple of years to be in puppy love before they are veterans. Let teachers spot problems and get those really young kids the proper guidance, but But don’t tell 12-13 year olds that it is perfectly natural for them to be having sex. It isn’t. Sex at very early ages usually carry a huge amount of baggage with it.
By RF
September 28, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
TOJ- it’s hard to decide when to tell a child the facts. My 12 yr. old isn’t thinking that way yet, but he has a friend down the street who I overheard talking about wanting to see some girl naked. That prompted a discussion about appropriate attitudes towards women in MY house!! I worry because I know there are plenty of kids out there who aren’t getting the instruction at home and my son may just come across a uhm…less restrictive girl, you know? I can tell you, as a teacher and parent of a 12 yr. old that they do need to hear about it at 12-13. I read a medical study in recent years that talked about the average age for entering puberty and that it’s beginning at younger ages than it used to. I wonder how many parent are aware of that and addressing issues that come up. The real question here should be, How do we get parents to begin an ongoing dialogue with their kids about sex?
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
RF -
USinUK- you bring up an interesting point about the average marriage age. In the South, the belles have traditionally married right out of high school or college, so it’s easier for us to preach….err, I mean teach abstinence and expect it to happen. That’s changing as more young people wait to start careers, etc. before marrying.
thanks for the attribution, but that wasn’t me. although, I do agree with the sentiment (especially since I was one of those whose first marriage took place when I was closer to 40 than to 30).
TOJ -
What I have a problem with is this trend to accept that 12-13 year olds are going to be having sex.
I think we all agree that 12-13 year olds are nowhere NEAR ready to have sex. however, they ARE going through earth-shattering hormonal changes (onset of menstruation, hair sprouting in weird places, etc). and, most importantly, they will be having sex SOME DAY. yes, we all want them to put it off until they’re emotionally ready - but, regardless of when it happens, it is vital that they have all the facts on how to prevent pregnancy and diseases.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
RF
You are dead on about all kids being different. I wasn’t worried about my son. He thought girls were pretty repugnant until he was about 15. Then it was like a light switch. It seemed like over night he was talking about girls.
My little girl was a different story. She went boy-crazy at about the age of 9. But it was boy-bands and Disney TV stars. Fortunately, she looked like she was 9 years old until she was 15. Her boyfriends were all shy little guys from either church or the neighborhood. The older thug-like guys left her alone.
Then in just a few months, my skinny little girl blossomed. At that point, it became a huge problem keeping much older guys away from her. But even then, she was pretty smart about who she wanted to be with.
We were fortunate. We had a walking, talking example of what could happen. My wife had a niece that looked like she was 21 when she was 12. Her name was Jessie. Her Mom sure didn’t help by letting her get a tramp stamp at the age of 12. She had her first child at the age of 13. By the time she was 15, she was regularly being beaten up by the much older boys that her mother had been letting her date. Her second child came when she was 16 and no one had any idea who the Baby-Daddy was. I don’t know what has happened to Jessie, but I guess she would be 23-24, by now. She now has an 11 year old and a 8 year old, IF she hasn’t had any more kids.
Our kids were easy. But a lot of that came from knowing our kids. They always knew that we were not the enemy. But I didn’t want my very young kids to be told all the gory details about sex because of kids like Jessie. They got enough of that on TV.
I can’t condemn anyone for telling their kids early, as long as they aren’t telling them that it is perfectly natural that they are having sex as soon as puberty hits. It may be biologically natural, but societal reality says that nothing could be more damaging to a kid’s future.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this
How did we go from making sure young teens and pre-teens understand about sex to “encouraging” them to have sex? Why would they make the connection that instruction means they should try something? It would be great if children could be children a bit longer. It ain’t gonna happen as long as they have access to TV, as long as even children’s programs show children in adult behavior and adult clothing. There is no closing the lid on Pandora’s box. The only thing we can do is pay close attention to what they see and do and explain when things vere into adult territory. Conversely, we need to pay more attention to the joys of childhood so they are not so eager to leave it. I see far too many adult sponsered activities for young children that are just too old for the kids involved. Obviously, parents are encouraging more adult behaviors.
By Gandalf, the Grey
September 29, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
Ironman Carmichael did you take your son to the cathouse? What does that add to the discussion? NOTHING. Thank you! Now crawl back into your hole and STFU Please! MBLA and homophobia? Are you suggesting that gay men are pediphiles? I wasn’t. Just that Jackoff was wierd to look at children as sexual beings. Maybe you do too
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang.
even Nicholas Kristof thinks McCain is too hot-headed to be CiC:
http:// www. nytimes. com/ 2008/09/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
But it’s equally clear that in recent years Mr. McCain has become impish cubed — impulsive, impetuous and impatient — and those are perilous qualities in a commander in chief.
-snip-
Judging from Mr. McCain’s own positions, he might well revive a cold war with Russia and could start a hot war with Iran or North Korea. In those three hot spots, Mr. McCain could constitute a dangerous gamble for this country
-snip-
Mr. McCain’s lead-with-the-chin approach to Russia reflects the same pugnacity that resulted in obscenity-laced dust-ups with fellow Republican senators, but it’s less endearing when the risk is nuclear war.
-snip-
All in all, it’s astonishing that Mr. McCain seems determined to return to Mr. Bush’s first-term policies that have been utterly discredited even within the administration. Judging from Mr. McCain’s own positions, on foreign policy he could well end up more Bush than Bush.
dang. when folks on your own side of the aisle think you’re a bit to eager to fight, that’s saying something …
By JokesOn
September 29, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this
Gale,
How did we go from making sure young teens and pre-teens understand about sex to “encouraging” them to have sex? Why would they make the connection that instruction means they should try something?
I agree. It is a straw-man tactic to stop any discussion.
There is nothing encouraging about factually teaching what technically happens when humans have sex coupled with how humans can prevent stds and pregnancy.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
Gandalf, get over it. Expecting young teens to be sexual beings because hormonal activity is at a raging peak, is not pediphilic. Nobody suggested it except you. I find the idea of two early or pre-teens haveing sex (with one another, not someone older) to be absurd. I think it happens in the same way lots of unacceptable behaviours happen. We/they get into situations they should not be in in the first place. Why do we encourage school dances at the 7th and 8th grade level?
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Gale -
We/they get into situations they should not be in in the first place. Why do we encourage school dances at the 7th and 8th grade level?
it’s not the school dances that get kids into trouble. it’s the UNchaperoned events (especially if they’re on their own after school). it’s the kids who are dropped off at the mall for a few unsupervised hours … it’s the kids who have the computer in their rooms without parental supervision of what the kids are doing/who they’re talking to …
By lovelyliz
September 29, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Should people aspire to virginity until they are married?
Only if unlike the studies on this matter show, they don’t engage in risky sexual behavior anyway. Otherwise, what’s the point?
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Gale
It’s just a different way of parenting. Telling your kids that it is wrong to have sex when they are very young, and then telling them what to do when they have sex when they are very young is sending conflicting messages. If you tell them that something is wrong, they will believe you. Then you tell them what to do when they do that wrong thing is saying that you really don’t trust them.
USinUK
Puberty is hell. Mark Twain said that all 13 year olds should be put in a barrel, the top nailed on and a hole cut in the side to feed them. Then when they turn 16, the hole should be covered up. Hr wrote that in 1890.
Our kids were very aware of birth control before they started having sex. As I told RF, we knew our kids. But we didn’t tell them at puberty. My wife was right there when my daughter started her cycle. They were never left alone on anything, but we made the decisions about when to tell them what.
Shouldn’t that be the way it is? Shouldn’t parents raise their children?
GTG
As soon as my son started paying attention to girls, I wanted to take him to a brothel. Clear his head, give him confidence, let him understand that it is not the end all-be all to life on earth. Of course his mother would have none of it. And so it goes.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I saw a little of that temper in the debate. I’m not crazy about that, but our alternative is a guy who has never made a stand in his life. He dared to stand up in South Chicago and be a community organizer? Not exactly a bold stance. He has never voted against his own party.
He folded on public financing. He folded on his relationship with his church. He appears to be a Chicago Politician who’s only constant is his price tag.
So what do we do? We either have a hot-head or a wimp.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Puberty is hell. Mark Twain said that all 13 year olds should be put in a barrel, the top nailed on and a hole cut in the side to feed them. Then when they turn 16, the hole should be covered up. Hr wrote that in 1890.
now, that made me laugh. me, I’m all for bording school when they hit 12. single-gender bording school. in the Alps.
Shouldn’t that be the way it is? Shouldn’t parents raise their children?
yes, parents should raise their children. too many don’t, though - that’s the problem. you cited the 13-year-olds at the Fulton clinic - where are the parents there? but it isn’t just the poor - a lot of wealthier parents have their heads in the sand regarding their kids’ access to sex, drugs and booze -
bottom line: pre-marital sex and unplanned pregnancies are not just because parents aren’t paying attention or teaching kids the facts - kids need the message early and often to respect themselves, to take care of themselves and, if they are going to have sex, for god’s sake, be safe! right now, you have a lot of kids taking pledges to wait until marriage, then having sex 18 months later without protecting themselves because if they plan it, then it’s really-really wrong.
-me, banging my head against the desk-
frankly, this is a stupid topic that we’ve discussed to death.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Maybe I still want to believe in free love. I think the problem is that kids, especially girls, get the notion that sex=love. I think kids need to understand that is frequently not the case until they are mature. It takes years before we understand that what is happening now in our life may not be there next year; or even next week. If I explain to a 17 year old that sex can and should be something special between two people who are committed to one another, that teen will likely say and believe that he/she is committed and deeply in love. They will not remember that just last week it was someone else they were deeply committed to. I would rather the teen think of sex as something fun without lasting commitment until much later, and take appropriate precaustions. But ok, that is my personal fantasyland.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
He folded on public financing.
explain to me why it’s a bad thing that he’s not taking tax dollars to fund his campaign. me, I have no problem with it.
He dared to stand up in South Chicago and be a community organizer?
explain to me why working in your community for a couple of years is a bad thing. explain to me why get-out-the-vote campaigns are a bad thing. explain to me why helping the poor and the elderly is a bad thing. these are all qualities I WANT in my president.
He folded on his relationship with his church.
explain to me why this is a bad thing. better yet, explain to me how this is any different from Sarah Palin leaving her pentacostal church (where they host anti-semites and people who believe in casting out witchcraft) for a more mainstream church.
We either have a hot-head or a wimp.
if you want to define “wimp” as someone who believes in diplomacy and deliberation and who does NOT practice the strategy of “ready. fire. aim” at each and every problem, then yes, please, sign me up for the wimp. every. flipping. time.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
TOJ, we dumped the good candidates.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Gale
*I find the idea of two early or pre-teens haveing sex (with one another, not someone older) to be absurd. *
And that’s the problem. Pregnant 13 year old girls almost never get that way because of 13 year old boys. Older boys can be much more predatory on very young girls and the results are often pregnancy.
I have no problem with 7-8th grade dances as long as they are chaperoned and closely watched IF and only if older kids are kept away.
This is the problem that I always have here. I wanted to raise my own kids. I was the parent that the teachers dreaded seeing. And the reason for that is that I knew what my kids were being told because we always talked openly to our kids.
My daughter once told me that she was taught in school that a person should never fear or judge anyone by the way they look. Sounds wonderful, doesn’t it?
The problem is simple. If a thug wants to look like a thug, I want to respect his wants and needs. I am going to avoid him and I want my kids to avoid him. I had a pretty vocal argument with the teacher about that one, but thanks to a very wise principal, she finally saw the light.
But the bottom line is that it is my responsibility to teach them about life. People don’t look at the mass murderer’s 4th grade teacher. They look at the parents.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m afraid that boarding school made a lot of sense when the kids were teenagers. We couldn’t afford it so it never happened.
It is another one of God’s little jokes that these wonderful little creatures that look at you with those trusting eyes and who love you so unconditionally become these THINGS. These teenagers. I’m afraid that locking them up quickly becomes an almost reasonable solution to dealing with them.
While my son was not sexually active at an early age, he was an expert at all the other maladies that plague teenagers. He was also incredibly smart which was even worse. At one point, we were looking at military school because he had started acting out in the 9th grade. But instead, we sent him to live with his grandparents for a couple of months during the summer. Up at 5AM to work on the farm was all he needed.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Pregnant 13 year old girls almost never get that way because of 13 year old boys. Older boys can be much more predatory on very young girls and the results are often pregnancy.
VERY well said. and very, very true.
But the bottom line is that it is my responsibility to teach them about life. People don’t look at the mass murderer’s 4th grade teacher. They look at the parents.
as well they should. the 4th grade teacher gets your kid for a few hours a day for 5 days of the week for 9 months of the year. parents are the constant (not teachers, not scout leaders, not even friends) - they’re there from Day 0 until the kid goes out into the world. they should be held to account.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
It is another one of God’s little jokes that these wonderful little creatures that look at you with those trusting eyes and who love you so unconditionally become these THINGS. These teenagers. I’m afraid that locking them up quickly becomes an almost reasonable solution to dealing with them.
for me, it starts when they turn 7 and become precocious and think they know it all. good god almighty, it makes me want to give them a stack of dry-cleaning bags and tell them to go play.
But instead, we sent him to live with his grandparents for a couple of months during the summer. Up at 5AM to work on the farm was all he needed.
yeah, babbee!!! now, that’s what I’m talking about - none of this “I’m booooooored …” oh, really? I’ll give you something to do!
:-)
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
USinUK
None of those are bad things. But assistant pastors do those things. Not world leaders.
Diplomacy is a good thing if the person you are talking to is concerned with how they will look on the civilized world stage. We lost a lot of good soldiers in the Korean War because the size and shape of the negotiating table was debated for almost a year before the talks could take place. Diplomacy can be used against us if we do not have the stones to let the other person know that there are some very difficult options at our disposal.
Ever heard of Good Cop, Bad Cop? It is a negotiating technique. I would like for the commander and Chief to be known as the Bad Cop. Let diplomats be the Good Cop. Once we become Good Cop, Good Cop, we are in trouble especially dealing with some of the very bad people that run parts of our world.
It isn’t politically correct and it isn’t nice, but I would rather our enemies understand that we will act once the negotiations break down.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
But assistant pastors do those things. Not world leaders.
for a first job out of college, of course world leaders do those things. he wasn’t a community organizer last year - it was right out of school. and I think it is a great item on his presidential resume.
Diplomacy can be used against us if we do not have the stones to let the other person know that there are some very difficult options at our disposal.
considering we’re the only country to have ever used a nuclear weapon TWICE, I think that message is out there. all of our best presidents have believed in diplomacy first (“walk softly and carry a big stick”) - heck, even W is in diplomatic talks with Iran, despite the fact that McCain criticized Obama for making the suggestion.
Ever heard of Good Cop, Bad Cop? It is a negotiating technique. I would like for the commander and Chief to be known as the Bad Cop.
I would like for the CiC to be known as someone who will use force if/when necessary but not until. McCain does not strike me as that person. Ready. Fire. Aim. it’s no way to lead a country.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Gale
I like McCain. There is so much about him that reminds me of my Dad. He was a fighter pilot and that was as good as it gets according to my Dad. He landed on aircraft carriers at a time when the planes were jets and the carriers were not much bigger than the WWII carriers that landed prop driven planes. To say that he is not smart enough to operate Windows XP after he flew jets is ridicules.
But I don’t want him to be destroyed by cable TV. I don’t want Bill Marh, who other than a sharp, sarcastic wit has never shown anything of value in his life, to stand as judge over this American hero. I want him to be able to retire with dignity.
When he dies, I want his obituary to talk about his heroics and his valor, not the mistakes he made as president.
I hate to admit that Hillary was probably the best choice, but she probably was. (Damn, pigs must be flying somewhere and I’m pretty sure hell just froze over)
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
USinUK
yeah, babbee!!! now, that’s what I’m talking about - none of this “I’m booooooored …” oh, really? I’ll give you something to do!
It was actually his Great Grandparents on his mother’s side. LOL! The old man would have none of it. He worked tobacco. He cut down trees. He painted a couple of the out buildings. And every Saturday morning, his young butt was in a fishing dingy. He had never fished in his life.
But he came back tanned and muscled up. He was a different person. It is a shame that a lot of kids do not have a PawPaw and BawBaw to straighten them out.
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I’m not even sure I am going to vote at this point.
Go home, John. Leave the politics to the politicians. Stress causes cancers to return. Take that good looking wife and live the life that you have earned.
I think Obama deserves the presidency. Let his life be destroyed.
Hucabee said a funny thing. He said that this election may be the first election that the winner asks for a recount.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
TOJ, It’s easy to say Hillary was the best choice now. I’m still planning to write her name on my ballot. The other choices make me very worried. I don’t want to say I voted for either.
By lovelyliz
September 29, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
A vow is worthless if you don’t stick to it.
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
He was a different person. It is a shame that a lot of kids do not have a PawPaw and BawBaw to straighten them out.
I agree - I think the worst problem the US has isn’t from a breakdown of marriage, it’s from the breakdown of the extended family. I know that, after my father’s father died, my grandmother relied on family to help raise her boys when she was working. The same with my mother - her grandfather helped her mother when she was little and her parent’s relationship was rocky (yes, these things happened even in the Depression)
Grandparents, aunts/uncles, family friends - everyone should be helping out when it comes to raising kids (it’s all part of the “it takes a village” mentality that Hillary talked about).
By The Other Jack
September 29, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Gale
I’m not sure she was the best choice in Washington. I REALLY liked Dr. Rice. She is a very smart woman and is as knowledgeable as anyone on earth of what is needed.
Maybe it was the 18 month Obama/Clinton Wars, but I am just weary of it all.
None of them give a damn about any of us. I know people who have broken up friendships over politics. DUH!?! There is not a soul inside the beltway that would give up a friend for any of us. They are politicians, they are lawyers, they are almost all millionaires. They are what they keep telling us are the bad guys.
By Gale
September 29, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
Oh noooo! Cadbury chocolate, Oreos and M&Ms may be taited with the Chinese milk!
By USinUK
September 29, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
TOJ -
Hucabee said a funny thing. He said that this election may be the first election that the winner asks for a recount.
hahaha … seriously. look at it this way, though - hurdles to a positive legacy are pretty darned low!
Cindy McCain good looking? eeeeeesh. she scares me with her plastic Stepford look. I like Michelle - I just feel that her “angry eyes” (as Mrs. Potatohead called them in “Toy Story II”) are unfortunate. I’ve seen both of them interviewed - I’d rather have a glass of wine with Michelle any day of the week - I think she’d tell better/funnier stories than Cindy.