Woman to Woman

By USinUK

September 19, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

As promised - I hereby institute Friday Snacks … this week, I give you Guiness Chocolate Cupcakes:

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

please help yourselves … (recipe at Epicurious)

now, as for the subject at hand, kids take way the hell too many standardized tests! they lose more than a week each school year to tests - time that could be better spent … oh, I dunno … LEARNING. it’s draining for the kids, it’s a challenge to teachers and administrators squeeze more curriculae into less time and it really sucks the life out of education.

yes, there needs to be accountability - but it’s really coming at the kids’ expense.

By ashley

September 19, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

i think that standardized test are worthless. the teachers should teach more things than just what they have to teach because of those tests….. ash..*

By Gale

September 19, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Before jumping into this topic… the new Mark Morford column is interesting if you are shaking your head over the Palin effect. http://www(dot)sfgate(dot)com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/09/19/notes091908(dot)DTL

By Gale

September 19, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Shaunti,” The law shouldn’t be blamed for the fact that too many school districts force good teachers to focus more on the test than the point of the test.” But then gives a quote from and administrator about focus on the goal and the test will take care of itself. Seems contradictory to me.

IT isn’t working, Shaunti. A few scores have gone up a little. We still have about a 50% dropout rate in GA. We still have kids that often cannot read at level. We still have a fifth grade five day science curriculum that I am personally aware of being squeezed into two days so the test material can be taught. It isn’t working.

By TheBlogger

September 19, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

“Teaching to the test” will negatively impact students, IMHO. However, a teacher does not have to teach to the test in order for students to get high test scores.

Therein lies the flaw with this blog.

By USinUK

September 19, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Gale -

We still have about a 50% dropout rate in GA

now, there’s a topic. why do you think there’s still such a high dropout rate ??

ABC has a story from 2006 up and they talk about GA - one of the kids they quote said, “I was just tired of school, you know. I didn’t like it. I had made my mind up that I wasn’t going to school anymore,” Thomasson said.

how do we make learning more motivational? how do we engage these kids so that they want to get an education and do something with their lives?

By Victoria

September 19, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

“Kids are beefing up on the state test material” explains Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing. “But it doesn’t mean they know the subject matter.” Proof can be found with inferior scores on similar external tests, from the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) to the SAT. In other words, test the same knowledge in a slightly different way and you realize that kids are adept at filling in bubbles on a sheet, not gaps in their education.

This reminds me of a book I read. It wasn’t a scholarly work, or a work of non-fiction. It was actually a work of science fiction. However, it had a real theory in it. That theory was the “chinese room” idea. Today’s modern schooling teaches kids to be those “chinese rooms”. They’re given the symbols that get the results, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of understanding going on. I can ask my sister things that are supposed to be common knowledge, and she has no clue of the answer to what I’ve asked.

This description of chinese rooms, taken from wikipedia, explains what I am talking about.

—-“Searle requests that his reader imagine that, many years from now, people have constructed a computer that behaves as if it understands Chinese. It takes Chinese characters as input and, using a computer program, produces other Chinese characters, which it presents as output. Suppose, says Searle, that this computer performs its task so convincingly that it comfortably passes the Turing test: it convinces a human Chinese speaker that the program is itself a human Chinese speaker. All of the questions that the human asks it receive appropriate responses, such that the Chinese speaker is convinced that he or she is talking to another Chinese-speaking human being. Most proponents of artificial intelligence would draw the conclusion that the computer understands Chinese, just as the Chinese-speaking human does.

Searle then asks the reader to suppose that he is in a room in which he receives Chinese characters, consults a book containing an English version of the aforementioned computer program and processes the Chinese characters according to its instructions. He does not understand a word of Chinese; he simply manipulates what, to him, are meaningless symbols, using the book and whatever other equipment, like paper, pencils, erasers and filing cabinets, is available to him. After manipulating the symbols, he responds to a given Chinese question in the same language. As the computer passed the Turing test this way, it is fair, says Searle, to deduce that he has done so, too, simply by running the program manually. “Nobody just looking at my answers can tell that I don’t speak a word of Chinese,” he writes.[1]

This lack of understanding, according to Searle, proves that computers do not understand Chinese either, because they are in the same position as he — nothing but mindless manipulators of symbols: they do not have conscious mental states like an “understanding” of what they are saying, so they cannot fairly and properly be said to have minds.” —-

Now I’m not saying that kids have no minds. What I’m saying is that the expectations of testing turn a child into a ‘chinese room’. So to me, Sarvardy has it right. Kids are just good at filling in bubbles. Sadly, they aren’t even given a complete set of “rules” if they can’t fill the bubbles in when presented with the information in a different way…

By Victoria

September 19, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

“Kids are beefing up on the state test material” explains Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing. “But it doesn’t mean they know the subject matter.” Proof can be found with inferior scores on similar external tests, from the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) to the SAT. In other words, test the same knowledge in a slightly different way and you realize that kids are adept at filling in bubbles on a sheet, not gaps in their education.

This reminds me of a book I read. It wasn’t a scholarly work, or a work of non-fiction. It was actually a work of science fiction. However, it had a real theory in it. That theory was the “chinese room” idea. Today’s modern schooling teaches kids to be those “chinese rooms”. They’re given the symbols that get the results, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of understanding going on. I can ask my sister things that are supposed to be common knowledge, and she has no clue of the answer to what I’ve asked.

This description of chinese rooms, taken from wikipedia, explains what I am talking about.

—-“Searle requests that his reader imagine that, many years from now, people have constructed a computer that behaves as if it understands Chinese. It takes Chinese characters as input and, using a computer program, produces other Chinese characters, which it presents as output. Suppose, says Searle, that this computer performs its task so convincingly that it comfortably passes the Turing test: it convinces a human Chinese speaker that the program is itself a human Chinese speaker. All of the questions that the human asks it receive appropriate responses, such that the Chinese speaker is convinced that he or she is talking to another Chinese-speaking human being. Most proponents of artificial intelligence would draw the conclusion that the computer understands Chinese, just as the Chinese-speaking human does.

Searle then asks the reader to suppose that he is in a room in which he receives Chinese characters, consults a book containing an English version of the aforementioned computer program and processes the Chinese characters according to its instructions. He does not understand a word of Chinese; he simply manipulates what, to him, are meaningless symbols, using the book and whatever other equipment, like paper, pencils, erasers and filing cabinets, is available to him. After manipulating the symbols, he responds to a given Chinese question in the same language. As the computer passed the Turing test this way, it is fair, says Searle, to deduce that he has done so, too, simply by running the program manually. “Nobody just looking at my answers can tell that I don’t speak a word of Chinese,” he writes.[1]

This lack of understanding, according to Searle, proves that computers do not understand Chinese either, because they are in the same position as he — nothing but mindless manipulators of symbols: they do not have conscious mental states like an “understanding” of what they are saying, so they cannot fairly and properly be said to have minds.” —-

Now I’m not saying that kids have no minds. What I’m saying is that the expectations of testing turn a child into a ‘chinese room’. So to me, Sarvardy has it right. Kids are just good at filling in bubbles. Sadly, they aren’t even given a complete set of “rules” if they can’t fill the bubbles in when presented with the information in a different way…

By Victoria

September 19, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

“Kids are beefing up on the state test material” explains Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair and Open Testing. “But it doesn’t mean they know the subject matter.” Proof can be found with inferior scores on similar external tests, from the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) to the SAT. In other words, test the same knowledge in a slightly different way and you realize that kids are adept at filling in bubbles on a sheet, not gaps in their education.

This reminds me of a book I read. It wasn’t a scholarly work, or a work of non-fiction. It was actually a work of science fiction. However, it had a real theory in it. That theory was the “chinese room” idea. Today’s modern schooling teaches kids to be those “chinese rooms”. They’re given the symbols that get the results, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of understanding going on. I can ask my sister things that are supposed to be common knowledge, and she has no clue of the answer to what I’ve asked.

This description of chinese rooms, taken from wikipedia, explains what I am talking about.

—-“Searle requests that his reader imagine that, many years from now, people have constructed a computer that behaves as if it understands Chinese. It takes Chinese characters as input and, using a computer program, produces other Chinese characters, which it presents as output. Suppose, says Searle, that this computer performs its task so convincingly that it comfortably passes the Turing test: it convinces a human Chinese speaker that the program is itself a human Chinese speaker. All of the questions that the human asks it receive appropriate responses, such that the Chinese speaker is convinced that he or she is talking to another Chinese-speaking human being. Most proponents of artificial intelligence would draw the conclusion that the computer understands Chinese, just as the Chinese-speaking human does.

Searle then asks the reader to suppose that he is in a room in which he receives Chinese characters, consults a book containing an English version of the aforementioned computer program and processes the Chinese characters according to its instructions. He does not understand a word of Chinese; he simply manipulates what, to him, are meaningless symbols, using the book and whatever other equipment, like paper, pencils, erasers and filing cabinets, is available to him. After manipulating the symbols, he responds to a given Chinese question in the same language. As the computer passed the Turing test this way, it is fair, says Searle, to deduce that he has done so, too, simply by running the program manually. “Nobody just looking at my answers can tell that I don’t speak a word of Chinese,” he writes.[1]

This lack of understanding, according to Searle, proves that computers do not understand Chinese either, because they are in the same position as he — nothing but mindless manipulators of symbols: they do not have conscious mental states like an “understanding” of what they are saying, so they cannot fairly and properly be said to have minds.” —-

Now I’m not saying that kids have no minds. What I’m saying is that the expectations of testing turn a child into a ‘chinese room’. So to me, Sarvardy has it right. Kids are just good at filling in bubbles. Sadly, they aren’t even given a complete set of “rules” if they can’t fill the bubbles in when presented with the information in a different way…

By kimberly

September 19, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

High school students with low test scores bring down a school’s average. Now what do you think happens to these kids in an NCLB scores-motivated high school? (a) They get extra attention from faculty to fill in the gaps in their education to this point, and the counseling and encouragement to belive that yes, they CAN succeed? or (b) They are encouraged (often through negative reinforcement) to transfer to an “alternative” school that prepares them (in the few weeks they actually remain there) for life as a drop-out? Take a guess.

I’ve SEEN what happens — close up and personal with a friend’s son — but I’d like to see actual teachers (Chuck, RF, Monica?), and parents of struggling students discuss and enlighten us on this topic.

As the parent of academic over-achievers, all I can say is that they’ve spent months of their lives, over the years, in repetitive drilling for tests, bored out of their minds, completely uninspired, and learning nothing during those times. (Actually, they did learn something: that “the man” wants them to regurgitate, not think. Thinkers are dangerous, you know.)

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 19, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

This is too easy! I have the ANSWER! PARENTING! ONE WORD TAKES ALL THAT BADNESS OUT OF SCHOOL, AND TESTS AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING! Kids should be able to cook, set the table, do laundry, read, understand math, and shoot and dress game by age 12. Anything less is just lazy parents, self absorbed parenting.

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 19, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Oh, by the way, I too am an Aquarian!

By GOB

September 19, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

Kimberly - My school didnt make AYP last year because our special ed kids didnt do well enough on the Graduation Tests. This year, free school-wide tutoring tutoring that has been in place for years was cancelled so that all the attention could be focused on those special ed students.

It is great that they are getting more help, but it is coming at the expense of everyone else in the school. The fear of being placed on the failing list and getting your name in the paper is the driving force behind everything that my school is doing this year. We’ve even had special ed teachers asked to move kids out of the program so that they wont bring that group’s test scores down again.

We have a good school (exceeding standards school-wide, just not the SPED group), but get labeled as failing. The whole NCLB testing patterns make no sense. There is no tracking as a different group of kids are tested each year. How can you truly track improvement if you arent testing the same kids as they progress? One bad group can get a school listed as a failure.

By John

September 19, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

Normally I don’t agree with Andrea on much of anything she writes, but she quiet correct regarding NCLB. My wife has been teaching in Gwinnett County for over 20 years. She will tell you NCLB is like a 100 pound gorilla hanging on teachers’ backs. Sure, NCLB sounds good in theory, but its emphasis on test scores as a measurement of success undermines the learning process. Test scores have become the holy grail for which teachers are blamed when their class and school test scores don’t measure up. Granted legitimate test scores provide parents with a good measuring stick when evaluating schools, but NCLB creates an inherent conflict of interest. There are teachers who focus on teaching to the test and there are those who are “forced” to compromise their teaching philosophy for the sake of test scores. Regardless of what governmental educational policies - federal, state or county - are created to “improve” education, parental involvement in their children’s education is paramount and starts at home, not at school.

By John

September 19, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Normally I don’t agree with Andrea on much of anything she writes, but she quiet correct regarding NCLB. My wife has been teaching in Gwinnett County for over 20 years. She will tell you NCLB is like a 100 pound gorilla hanging on teachers’ backs. Sure, NCLB sounds good in theory, but its emphasis on test scores as a measurement of success undermines the learning process. Test scores have become the holy grail for which teachers are blamed when their class and school test scores don’t measure up. Granted legitimate test scores provide parents with a good measuring stick when evaluating schools, but NCLB creates an inherent conflict of interest. There are teachers who focus on teaching to the test and there are those who are “forced” to compromise their teaching philosophy for the sake of test scores. Regardless of what governmental educational policies - federal, state or county - are created to “improve” education, parental involvement in their children’s education is paramount and starts at home, not at school.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

It’s sad to me that all the fun has been taken out of going to school, from the demise of recess/gym class, to the reduction of art/music classes, to the overemphasis on standardized testing. For me, school was a bright spot in an otherwise bleak childhood.

but I’d like to see actual teachers (Chuck, RF, Monica?)

Do you think that they are—gasp—actually working this year?? ; > }

By AGF

September 19, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Kimberly said: (Actually, they did learn something: that “the man” wants them to regurgitate, not think. Thinkers are dangerous, you know.)

This is nothing but liberal hogwash. I have three children in various grades (and like yours, mine are over-achievers), and all of them have to take the CRCT. While I may hate the CRCT, and while I believe that our children are required to take too many standardized tests, the questions on the test have been revamped over the last few years to REQUIRE students to think.

Gone are the days where students can simply read, remember, and regurgitate. Almost all questions are designed to combine multiple elements of the Georgia Performance Standards. In math (a subject that I help my children with the most), students are now given mostly word problems to solve. In many cases, they can derive the correct answer by eliminating wrong answers. This process requires them to THINK for themselves.

No longer are they simply asked to estimate the square root of 41. They are given a word problem that requires them to recognize they need to sketch a triangle with sides of 4 and 5, then they have to recognize that the problem is asking them to solve for the hypotenuse (which is the square root of 41). Then they must estimate the square root to find the correct answer.

I have also looked at sample social studies, science, and reading test questions. These tests are now designed to ask questions like “which is the BEST answer, or “which of the following is NOT the answer”. Again, the students are required to think, instead of recalling memorized facts.

Finally, over 75% of the teachers are women, the state superintendent is a woman, and 5 of the 12 state board members are women. You may want to rethink your “the man wants you to regurgitate” comment.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

My school didnt make AYP last year because our special ed kids didnt do well enough on the Graduation Tests. This year, free school-wide tutoring tutoring that has been in place for years was cancelled so that all the attention could be focused on those special ed students. It is great that they are getting more help, but it is coming at the expense of everyone else in the school.

Form what I understand, one of the ramifications of NCLB is that schools aren’t allowed to segregate students within the classrooms based upon ability. While this may sound like a noble social goal, I think the bottom line is that not every child has the same amount of gray matter to work with. Not every child is college material. I think we would be better off admitting that and encouraging the “less-able” to obtain vacational training.

By kimberly

September 19, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

Gee AGF, I apologize for expressing my own observations and opinions. (The nerve!) I guess our familial discussion of how Orwell’s “1984” was only 25-30 years off the mark and how some of the book’s fictional depictions actually exist in our country right now, is still fresh in my mind. But I’ll get back into the kitchen now where I belong. So sorry to have offended you!

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

vacational training.

OOps—that was supposed to be vocational training. ; > }

Finally, over 75% of the teachers are women, the state superintendent is a woman, and 5 of the 12 state board members are women. You may want to rethink your “the man wants you to regurgitate” comment.

Good one, AGF. I had a first date with a special ed teacher last night, which went very well. I like teachers. I still think about becoming a math teacher, but just can’t get up early enough in the morning to be there on time.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Aquarian Galdalf, I believe it. Aquarians like to shock people.

You have it right. The basic problem with schools is parenting. And as someone else said, the problem with NCLB is the inclusive set for the test. Average in the SPED kids and in some cases, imigrant kids with a very different background and little English, and the school is doomed. Focus attention on those low scores and the other kids are ignored. Kids aren’t all the same and cannot be taught at the same speed. Trying to measure a group for a set of metrics that aims for average will bore the snot out of the faster learners. What do you get when a bright kid gets bored, especially if the parent is not closely involved? Trouble. Right here in River City.

By GOB

September 19, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

I think we would be better off admitting that and encouraging the “less-able” to obtain vacational training.

Bruno - That would be a great plan. Tell that to the state DOE which just took away the Career-Tech Diploma starting with this year’s freshman. If you thought the dropout rate was bad before, just wait a few years until these kids turn 16.

When I was in high school in the mid-90’s there were real-world vocational classes offered (autobody, plumbing, etc.), but now I dont know of a single program like that in my county.

By USinUK

September 19, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

It’s sad to me that all the fun has been taken out of going to school, from the demise of recess/gym class, to the reduction of art/music classes, to the overemphasis on standardized testing. For me, school was a bright spot in an otherwise bleak childhood

that’s exactly the point I was trying to make earlier - all this emphasis on testing and national standards is bleeding the soul out of schools. not all kids are going to be engineers, so why can’t they have art and music class??

and why is no one making the connection that 8-9-10-year olds NEED to go outside and run around and have unconstructed time. their little brains need to be stimulated through imagination and freeplay, not just drilled and drilled and drilled.

and, GTG, I agree with you that parenting is key, but schools can’t really DO anything about parents. they can only do what they can do.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Trouble. Right here in River City.

Gale—Is there any chance that you are a fan of the 60s musical group Spanky and our Gang?? They do an awesome version of “Trouble” on one of their albums. (With a capital T which rhymes with P which stands for Pool). I think that Spanky McFarland has one of the greatest “smokey” singing voices of all time—she makes you feel like you’re in a roaring 20s speakeasy. In case you aren’t familiar with them, their biggest songs were “Sunday Will Never Be the Same”, “Lazy Days”, and “Give a Damn”.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Bruno, while we seem to agree on vocational education, I am a be squirmy with the “less-able” label you give that group. Some, perhaps have less IQ. Some often are as bright or brighter than the students in the advanced programs. They merely do not see the value to them in book knowledge. Some day, they may find value and change course. But we do them a misjustice with a stand that all kids should leave high school with the same knowledge. Some kids are ready and eager to go to college. Some either don’t want to spend another day in class and just want a job and their own money, or some maybe want to go to college but just don’t have what it takes at this time; be it grades or money. Either way, this group is left feeling that they don’t matter and the faster learners are not challenged to do their best because the class is reduced to the slowest learners.

We, as a society, need to get over the idea that everyone should go to college. Tradesmen make perfectly good livings. A 20-something carpenter’s asst might finally figure out that he has an interest in economics and is ready to spend time in class learning something that he values personally, not because he will be tested on it. I think it comes down to that arrogance that we know best what is good for everybody, with a healthy dose of PC-itis.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

That would be a great plan. Tell that to the state DOE which just took away the Career-Tech Diploma starting with this year’s freshman. If you thought the dropout rate was bad before, just wait a few years until these kids turn 16. When I was in high school in the mid-90’s there were real-world vocational classes offered (autobody, plumbing, etc.), but now I dont know of a single program like that in my county.

GOB—I’m sorry to know of the changes. I wonder what they are thinking at the DOE…. My ownly contact with the educational system is in taking care of hordes of teachers who come to my office totally stressed out. One poor HS teacher is having a problem with kids throwing things at her every time she turns her back. If that happened to me, I’d be cracking skulls, fer sher.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

and, GTG, I agree with you that parenting is key, but schools can’t really DO anything about parents. they can only do what they can do.

Hi, gorgeous. In one county in GA, they have been giving jail time to parents for truancy. Probably a little extreme, but maybe it will get some of their attention. I can’t talk too much, however, since I essentially skipped my senior year in HS in order to work more.

P.S. My blind date went great—we finished it off with 20 mins. of making out in the parking lot. Made me feel like a high-schooler again.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

I am a be squirmy with the “less-able” label you give that group. Some, perhaps have less IQ. Some often are as bright or brighter than the students in the advanced programs. They merely do not see the value to them in book knowledge. Some day, they may find value and change course. But we do them a misjustice with a stand that all kids should leave high school with the same knowledge. Some kids are ready and eager to go to college. Some either don’t want to spend another day in class and just want a job and their own money, or some maybe want to go to college but just don’t have what it takes at this time; be it grades or money. Either way, this group is left feeling that they don’t matter and the faster learners are not challenged to do their best because the class is reduced to the slowest learners.

I’m with you 100%, Gale—in case you didn’t notice, I put “less-able” in quotes. With the cost of 4 years of college tuition and expenses approaching $100,000, learning a trade makes a lot of economic sense as well. In my home area, a lot of kids went to work for the casinos and made $35,000 their first year in the late 70s.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

I guess the problems seep into the system from school systems like Clayton county, where if anyone here doesn’t know, the system was so bad it has lost acredidation (or will). The school boards are supposed to keep the system on track. When that becomes a platform for personal gain, or ideolgy (sp?) agendas, the kids lose.

Government decided to step in and fix the problem. Once again, they fixed what was not broken. And yes, some of the blame rests in the liberal camp for not wanting slower learner to feel bad. The fix has hurt education and frustrated career teachers. This about it. If your raise or incentives or whatever they do, depends on the CRCT scores and you have a slow learner or kids that don’t speak English in your class that will bring down the average, what would you do?

A single solution will not serve every school system. What works in an area of involved parenting will not work in an area where 90% of the kids have family problems.

By tcoach

September 19, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Just got on the blog, and I am a teacher and a basketball coach at a Georgia public high school. (I have planning the last period of the day) The problem with the NCLB is that it brings down the education level of students who have been taught how to behave at home, and the ones who are advanced in the studies so that the ones who are behavior problems and those that just do not or do not want to get it. You sacrafice the education of many for a few. From being in schools now there is not nearly as much learning going on as when I was in high school. A large reason for this is that somewhere along the lines parents felt raising their child now falls on teh education system.
I am sorry but as a person who sees it every day, there are many children who have no business going to school with those who are actually trying to educate themselves. Therefor class time is not spent pushing students to their intellectual limits instead time is spent making sure lil’ Johnny does not get left behind eventhough he does not take notes, and has not done homework in 2 weeks.
Do not think this is the ramblings of a teacher in a bad district. The school sysytem I work for has made AYP for the last 4 years and is teh only system in teh area to be a school of distinction. Still even here we have some students that do nothing but lower the educational experience of every other student enrolled.

My message would be to the parents, to teach your children how to behave in school and also to show them that you do not learn something to pass a test you learn for the gaining of knowledge. But who am I to put any of this blame for the mess on parents?

By Rick

September 19, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

What’s the big deal about education anyway? Our next President graduated near the bottom of his class, and our future first woman President barely got a bachlor degree. This is America where anyone can reach thier dreams. You dont have to have degrees to be smart and get a head, you just need to be tough and hate everything a liberal stands for.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

Bruno, I remember the group, but not that specific song version. I’m all for teaching kids skills, but I don’t know that I would consider dealing at a casino a good career. The point, however, is that kids want to move on with their lives. It isn’t just kids from less fortunate families either. If public schools were engaging kids more in the process so school was not something they just wanted to get away from, it would probably help. The deal is, we as a society need to help them move in a direction that will provide them with a good life. We cannot do that if vocational education is sneered at.

By USinUK

September 19, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

GOB and Bruno -

oh, god - I’m so sorry to hear that vo-tech was defunded. don’t people realize that we need plumbers?? (they will when their toilet backs up and there’s no one to call). we need plumbers, brickies, electricians, plasterers - people who know how to do stuff. not everyone can be bill gates or steve jobs or warren buffet.

yes, encourage the smart kids and keep them challenged. but, shouldn’t we be helping kids find their potential and find what blows their skirts up?? if we do that, we will remain competitive.

fact is, we need the dreamers - and there are no standardized tests to measure that.

on the arrests for truancy - it’s about damned time! my point was that schools can’t make parents read to their kids and help them with their homework.

and YAY Bruno!!! wtg on the snog (man, there’s nothing like a good snog!!) woowoo!!

By Sunshine

September 19, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

Bruno: P.S. My blind date went great—we finished it off with 20 mins. of making out in the parking lot. Made me feel like a high-schooler again.

YEAH! Nothing like those little butterflies from first dates! Good luck!

By Mara

September 19, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Gale - misjustice

shall we call this a “Gale-ism”? just joking ;^)

I happen to agree with you and Bruno about the derth of vocational education. How many kids out there, with little chance (or desire) to go to college, even know how many different fields there are that can be taught on-the-job or through apprenticeships etc? Not every good job requires a college diploma and those who dom’t do well in an academic environment often thrive in less structured, more hands-on, situations.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

“Our next President graduated near the bottom of his class,” of the Naval Academy, Rick, not public high school. Granted, his dad was an admiral and he probably got a leg up to get in. But it is a very tough school. Don’t I remember reading that Eisenhower graduated low in his West Point class? Of course, his military career was more successful than McCain’s.

By NCLB wants schools to fail

September 19, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

The one question Dr. Mary Cohen, Margaret Spellings, or any other NCLB apologists don’t want to answer is this: If the law is designed to help schools succeed, then why is it that by 2014, a school will “fail” if even a single child in the school doesn’t pass the test?

That’s right. 999 kids pass the test, and one kid, back in school only because the terms of his crystal meth conviction fails the test and the entire school fails. Then the neocons have their “proof” that the school failed, and can justify giving middle and upper class supporters vouchers.

Funny how a law can be named No Child Left Behind, be pushed by the party of “personal responsibility” and have zero in the way of meaningful legislation on discipline. See if you address discipline, schools might succeed, and then you couldn’t justify vouchers. But even if an individual school does deal with it, NCLB has assured it will fail, because their “sound educational policy” dictates that if one fail, all fail.

You want vouchers? Then have the integrity to have an honest discussion about it; not put teachers through a meatgrinder that sets them up for failure, then blames them for it.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

Mara, thanks. I had to read that again after you pointed it out. Um, it’s Friday and my brain is all used up?

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 19, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

EXPAT: the low test scores are a symtom of poor parenting - not the fault of the schools. So schools should teach the children with poor parents harder? That is pretzel logic, or binary thinking (which is the dumbest comcept I have seen here, except anything spewed by that eldest of 6th graders). So put the parents in jail! Take away free tutoring! Elect OBAMA! He will fix it all, with your 5%er tax hikes. (Of course to a democrat, removing a tax cut put in place by a republican isn’t a tax hike! How silly of you to think that!
HOLD PARENTS RESPONSIBLE! Your kid isn’t get a B in Georgia schools and isn’t mentally retarded, you suck donkey balls as a parent. There I did it without insulting anyone (That eldest of 8th graders doesn’t really count, I even refrained from bombing Kimberly, though I was very tempted!)

By Researcher

September 19, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

*When Dwight realized that the only chance of getting his own college education was to try for a free one, he took the competitive examinations for both the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis and the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. He placed first for Annapolis and second for West Point. He wanted to go to the Naval Academy, but he discovered that at 20 he was too old. At the Military Academy the age limit was 21.

Eisenhower entered West Point in 1911. His academic record was average. He stood 61st in a class of 164. But he was very popular. He was a big, powerful young man with a friendly grin.*

By Mara

September 19, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Gale - Um, it’s Friday and my brain is all used up?

Hey, I’ve been out for three days and I’m all hopped up on cold/allergy medication…LOL! All I can say is it’s a good thing the husband needed the car today, so HE gets to drive home and I get to enjoy my faux-codeine haze…

have a good weekend all.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

Mara, Ack! misjustice is a word and it is the word I meant. Yeah! I looked it up. When you questioned it, I thought I should have typed injustice; pretty close tothe same meaning. USinUK is teaching me to spend the time to look things up.

By Randall

September 19, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Usually I agree more with Feldhahn, but the lefty is right this time.

By Gale

September 19, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Thanks researcher. I did a quick look, but didn’t take the time to dig it out. So, Dwight was not at the botton. It might be worth noting that top grads do not always succeed. Success is more a factor of dedication and commitment. Learning is only the start. Kids tend to learn commitment from parents and family. Schools really cannot teach that.

By kimberly

September 19, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Lazy parents ARE the problem! And ignorant ones. And sick ones. And ones that have to work all the time because the other parent left, or died, or can’t or won’t… so they don’t have time to spend with their children. Or don’t know how to help their kids learn or grasp the importance of it, because no one showed them. Parents ARE the problem!

They’re also our reality. School should not be expected to fix everything when parents can’t or won’t. BUT, it’s better for the children if they try. It’s better for all of us if more people grow up knowing how to succeed and make a life for themselves, and have the tools to do so. It’s better when we CAN spend more on schools and less on prisons. It’s better if our neighbors’ children grow up with enough to eat, a family doctor they can afford, and opportunities that are more compelling than drugs and crime. And something to reach for in a society that believes in them too.

You might say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. So let loose the hate bombs or whatever. Have a great weekend! (Just um, keep the creepy details to yourself. Like, ewww.)

By ToughTeacher

September 19, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

Sorry TheBlogger but teachers have to teach what we’re told to teach. This does mean that we do have to teach to the test. Everything that we do is based on what test scores will be. I invite you into a public classroom in America.

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

Just um, keep the creepy details to yourself. Like, ewww.)

Kiss, kiss, smooch, smooch, feel, feel….Is that what you meant?

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

And a rousing round of applause for all the teachers who weighed in today. I think y’all are well compensated for your work when you factor in all the vacations, but it’s still a tough job to put up with all the bratty students and their bratty parents.

In the end, I don’t hold schools, or even parents responsible for a child to receive an education. I hold the students responsible. WHy not? In my own cse, I had zero parental input or oversight, and look how well I turned out. ; > }

By Funneeee

September 19, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

no slurp slurp in there?

(fade in)

(slurping stops)

She :you do love me, don’t you?

He: aw, just keep doing that

(A Child’s Garden of Grass)

(fade out)

By Bruno

September 19, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

no slurp slurp in there?

Hey, gotta save something for the second date, right??

By Dr. Craig Spinks/Augusta

September 21, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Teaching students the content to be assessed upon a test is a considerable portion of what good teaching is about. However, using the test itself not only as pre- and post-instructional measures of student learning but also as the primary basis for instruction is to abuse the testing function. Specifically, I have witnessed students administered pretests, given the correct answers to the pretests, drilled over the answers to the pretests, and then given the identical pretests administered as a posttests. Shame on me for not reporting this testing abuse to my principal. On second thought, I had absolutely no confidence in her to do the right thing anyway. Still, shame on me.

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 22, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

TYPICAL LIBERAL RESPONSE FROM KIMBERLY! FEEL SORRY FOR THE POOR KID WHOSE DADDY LEFT MOMMY. Life is competition. The strong survive. The weak cut grass.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

appropos to absolutely nothing …

YAY MAD MEN!!! the best show on the teevee …

… back to our regularly scheduled programming …

kimberly -

BUT, it’s better for the children if they try

um. what exactly are schools supposed to do for the parents who won’t (or can’t) do their jobs? are they supposed to do home visits and teach the parents how to help with homework? are they supposed to require parents to go WITH their children to the library (not just drop them off) and read with them?

this is where I draw the line - a school’s job is to educate the kids and help them be prepared for life (and, yes, this includes sex ed) - they’re job isn’t to teach parents how to be parents.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

The topic should be: ‘…damaging our education system’ more. The public school system is a wreck in many places. Georgia is a good example of how bad public schools can be. However, over the weekend, I regained my sense of our public school system comepared to those of probably 80% of the world where there is no public school system. Many people most sacrifice deeply to pay tuition for children. Perhaps that maakes them more committed to involving themselves and not abdicating the whole education process. People here sending children to private schools so their children can learn without the drags of public school requirements have little comparison to that 80% of the world population. They must pay for schools where there is no public funding. If they are poor and barely providing food and shelter, there is no schooling. Poverty is sustained because there is no escape.

We should be grateful we have public schools and find ways to fix them without the government help. I have no suggestions because I only had three years experience with a high school age stepchild. Where schools are considered good, I think parents are deeply involved, but don’t interfere with teachers. Basically, I come back to parenting.

I happened to grow up in Ohio with a school district that had a very good reading program. I don’t know what the average was, but I do know that reading is the foundation for everything else. It is also the easiest thing with which to engage children in learning. I would focus on reading. We have programs for that, but it obviously isn’t enough with the many distractions children have today. My suggestion for NCLB is to trash it and step the education system back about 40 years.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

My parents did not help me with homework, nor did I have homework in primary grades like children apparently do now. They did not read to me —that I remember. I remember my mother trying, but growing impatient with our lack of attention. I don’t remember my mother reading much. My father, although he had no more than a fourth grade education read a lot when he was not working two jobs and maintaining the house. They were not directly involved in our studies, but they were interested.

Most parents seem to be disconnected from the process. If the child fails, it becomes the school’s fault; the teacher’s fault, and not theirs or their child’s. Where is the disconnect? I think it happened when we stopped holding children back because it would hurt their self-esteem. It was that PC attitude that everyone should be equal. Everyone needs an equal chance. I agree with that. But everyone is also resonsible for what they do with that chance. Failing a grade is a serious lesson in responsibility.

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 22, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

Good point in the PC attitude Gale. Everyone is CREATED equal, years and years of hard work separate the great from the poor.

By Lyrazel

September 22, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

Actually NCLB testing cannot be held to any standards—in GA yearly tests scores can be excused by the governor—and suddenly—that school gets merits of scholarship and standing even if 30% of the class failed.

Businesses are abandoning the south for the stupid quota; employers are leaving because the workforce cannot read remedial text. I had a challenge finding employees who could read a ruler.

Maybe its a southern thing to want to be dumb puppies—move to any other state in the country above the Blue Law Belt and the quality of education surpasses what is A+ down here becomes C- there. Across the country teachers hate the testing teaching too but it seems they have more success. Drop out rates are abysmal in the south and getting worse yearly. Public southern colleges spend more for athletics than other programs. Many HOPE scholarship students need remedial coursework in their freshmen year of college.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Gale -

Everyone needs an equal chance. I agree with that. But everyone is also resonsible for what they do with that chance. Failing a grade is a serious lesson in responsibility.

when I run for president, I want you to be my Sec of Ed :-)

my biggest gripe is the parents (and I work/have worked with dozens like this) who have their kids in an activity each and every night of the week plus at least 1 game on the weekend. hello! they’re kids - they need rest and they need to put their studies first. instead, you have the parents taking them to ballet, tae kwan do, drama, piano, softball/soccer/basketball, church youth group, and on and on and on.

how on earth are kids supposed to get the message that their education comes first, that it’s the most important thing for their future when parents have them going-going-going every minute of the day to where school becomes just another activity???

By Gale

September 22, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

USinUK, I agree on the over-abundance of structured activity for kids. They need unstructured time in order to build their internal conrols of their time. If you are told what you are going to do with every minute of your day, how do you learn to direct your own time? I am a fan of providing a wide experience for the child. But play should be a part of that. UNstructured play. If there are rules, it is not unstructured. One of the games I remember best was pretend baseball. We had no bats and no ball. The batter determined where the ball went, then the fielders determined ball control. A chase-down between bases was a measure in trusting the fair play of your friends.

By lovelyliz

September 22, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

Students are being taught to regurgitate a test not to think. These students go on to college where surprise! Surprise! They are ending up in remedial classes in record numbers.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Gale -

UNstructured play. If there are rules, it is not unstructured

amen!!

Lovelyliz -

They are ending up in remedial classes in record numbers

you’re dead-on right - USAToday had an piece about a study done by a group called Strong American Schools which said that:

Nearly four of five remedial students had a high school grade point average of B or better.

More than half the students taking remedial classes in college say they were good students in high school who always completed their assignments.

Nearly six of 10 remedial students say they should have been challenged more in high school.

interesting (and very sad) stuff - we’re not preparing our kids, we’re just doing stuff to make ourselves feel good.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

fact regurgitation in place of reasoning: Reasoning is something children learn to do normally during unstructured play. They make up the rules of the environment and determine how things work. Then they apply that reasoning to the rest of their environment. Forcing them to replay facts like a recorder takes them out of the normal mode of thinking. Likewise, programmed games, even educational games usually only teach them how to ‘game’. They learn that they can make mistakes without the world crashing down and that is good. But they also learn there are no bad consequences to the error. In play, a small error can be corrected and the game goes on with a lesson learned. (“You hit the ball out of bounds and that doesn’t count.”) If the error is more severe, the consequence is more severe. (Johnny smacks Jimmy because he knocked him down when he didn’t have the ball anyway.) Children are very good at teaching social behavior if the adults butt out; most of the time.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

What I find odd is that colleges even offer remedial courses. That is what community colleges should be doing. If a student isn’t prepared for college material, he should not be in the class, whether the tuition is funded or not. That is more of that equal opportunity cr*p. Yes, if a student is prepared to handle a college course, funding should be found. No tuition assistance should be provided for a student just because he or she is disadvantaged. If you are not ready for a college class, you are not ready. It is that simple.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Gale -

What I find odd is that colleges even offer remedial courses. That is what community colleges should be doing. If a student isn’t prepared for college material, he should not be in the class, whether the tuition is funded or not.

criminey. without remedial courses, what would most freshman football players take???

Yes, if a student is prepared to handle a college course, funding should be found. No tuition assistance should be provided for a student just because he or she is disadvantaged. If you are not ready for a college class, you are not ready

makes you wonder if anyone has audited this situation - how much in grants, etc, are offered to people taking remedial courses their freshman year? having said that, though, given how much more competitive that situation is, now, I doubt it would be as much as you might think.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

Competition for college slots. I have been hearing about that, USinUK. One would think that would cut down on the remedial classes being offered. If the colleges are being more selective, it would seem they are already getting the brighter students. To Lyrazel’s point, though, if the student transcript shows a high GPA and a well-rounded student… Well, scratch that thought. Wouldn’t the SAT score show up a high GPA that does not translate to real learning? Or is that the reason more colleges are depending on the SAT scores? Based on the poor showing for GA public schools, I would think the only college they could get into would be a GA college.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

Gale -

Wouldn’t the SAT score show up a high GPA that does not translate to real learning? Or is that the reason more colleges are depending on the SAT scores? Based on the poor showing for GA public schools, I would think the only college they could get into would be a GA college.

from what I remember, it’s the other way around - your SAT shows your aptitude - in other words, you can (theoretically) get a high SAT but have mediocre grades. in fact, I knew someone from high school who did really well on his SAT, but was a C-ish student — the univ of his choice rejected him because they said he wasn’t working up to his potential.

according to my sister (a high school administrator), a growing number of schools are using the ACT to supplement/supplant the SAT scores - I don’t know the difference between them, though.

where are our educators??? would love to understand the finer points.

By Why it's pointless

September 22, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

We hear about inner-city, economically-challenged students who are ostracized by their peers for making the effort to do well in school and better themselves. “Acting white” they call it. We shake our heads at how sad that is.

Yet, WHITE BREAD NORTH FULTON, like so much of America these days, is no different! Sure, kids can study and get good grades without being maligned as much, but look at the PARENTS! They look at me like I have three heads when I don’t join the “American Idol” conversation. “You DON’T watch? Gasp! WHY?” (Um…) Likewise, when I asked these good, respectable, Republican, Idol-watching moms if she’d caught any of the John Adams mini-series on HBO, I received a blank-eyed blink blink blink. Huh? History, interesting? How’s that? (I must be an elitist or something. Pass the arugula.)

This morning the half-wits on Dave FM woke me up smirking and snickering at the Emmys won by the John Adams mini-series, something none of them had wanted to watch, but one commented that the weird brother in law had watched it. Smirk! Yet these people will tell us ALL ABOUT “Dancing with the Stars” in a couple of weeks. How sad that these dolts represent the common attitudes and concerns of so many Americans.

BTW, John Adams WAS a great American. His personal sacrifices and stubborn adherence to principle helped hold together a fledgling nation that was in danger of falling apart as quickly as it had come together. Not a particularly likable or popular fellow, he spent his life in tireless advocation for the principles of freedom and honor we claim to hold dear. Our bi-cameral legislature and the checks and balances in government, as well as the early ideas that became our Constitution, were all brought about in part by Adam’s dedication to country over self. His wife was perhaps the most amazing woman of her time. The series, based on an incredibly-written biography by David McCullough was riveting and insightful. (But certainly not as interesting as any episode of CSI Miami or a national karaoke contest.)

In 21st Century America, if you strive to be educated, you’re an “elitist” who deserves scorn instead of praise or positions of responsibility. We want our leaders to be just like us, the kind of guy or gal we want to have a beer with. Smart people are “uppity!” We don’t need brains to solve complex national and global issues, what we need are “tough cookies” who’ll get drunk on Saturday and go to church on Sunday (unless they’re out hunting) and think educating kids about science is bad, and wars are a “task from God.” Smirk and sneer at the smart guy, people!! All hail the snappy dresser with the snappy comeback and the guy who calls himself a hero. We don’t need no education! Just another brick in THE WALL… Pointless.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Why it’s pointless. Now I’m scared. You are very right. How rare is the person who reads a biography? I don’t and I am an avid reader. If we don’t even watch an educational TV show when it is presented, the folks who produce them will stop. But I would think people who are tuned into having the TV on all the time would at least watch something more engaging than the current reality nonsense.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Why It’s Pointless

Please tell me that you are not criticizing others for not watching the same TV shows as you. Horror or horrors, you probably don’t listen to the same music, either.

BTW. The History Channel is considered a conservative network. The reason: history is just not kind to the Democrats.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

okay, my friendlies … I’m off to a conference for a few days … so, no parties … no strangers … no long-distance phone calls … there’s plenty of milk and food in the ‘fridge and a $20 thumbtacked by the phone in case of emergencies.

have a great week!! see you Friday :-)

(be nice to Truth in my absence … I’m sure he’ll pine for me, so be kind)

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

Likewise, when I asked these good, respectable, Republican, Idol-watching moms if she’d caught any of the John Adams mini-series on HBO, I received a blank-eyed blink blink blink. Huh? History, interesting?

Out of curiosity, WIP, what solutions are YOU proposing to stimulate more interest in education in general and history in particular in your community? From the tone of your blog, it appears to me that YOUR point is to simply malign your Republican neighbors.

the half-wits on Dave FM

P.S. Have you ever considered listening to 107.5 (the Jazz station) instead of DaveFM or Project 9-6-1? It might put you in a better mood to deal with our stressful world. Just a suggestion—I’m on your side today.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

In my own case, I’m a late-comer to enjoying History. Through the years, Science and Math have always appealed to me more due to the problem-solving component in which there is one nice, neat answer which can be verified. History allows so many what-ifs and woulda-coulda-shouldas that it is less comfortable for my brain to digest and process.

By Nikita

September 22, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

The History Channel is generally considered conservative because it spends a great deal of time on the various wars, which are mostly considered to have been conducted by conservatives. Not because history isn’t kind to democrats. Yeesh. Somebody remind me why this always has to be a partisan bickerfest.

My opinion is that tests are useful for comparing systems to each other such that we can adjust the various systems to our statewide or nationwide curricular standards. However, we test too much, and place too much emphasis on tests as the sole determinant of whether students are excelling. And tests have fundamental shortcomings — they don’t measure critical thinking well. You may note that private schools don’t do standardized tests much at all, because those tests are a distraction from the kind of skills that schools want to foster.

The problems with NCLB are pretty numerous. The benchmarks are unattainable in a lot of cases, the time spent on testing is wasted and extensive, and the entire system will be failing and therefore reorganized eventually because the free market concept doesn’t work when there are no better alternatives available. The only thing NCLB does well is encourage school systems not to triage learners.

By AGF

September 22, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

Gale said: USinUK, I agree on the over-abundance of structured activity for kids. They need unstructured time in order to build their internal conrols of their time. If you are told what you are going to do with every minute of your day, how do you learn to direct your own time?

Gale, while I agree with what you are saying in theory, the reality is that too many parents will sue if their children get hurt during this “unstructured time”. If a child gets hurt, the parents always say “why weren’t you watching my baby?” or “how did you let this happen?”.

Both of my parents were teachers, I have friends who are teachers, and I have three children in public schools - so I have a fairly good insight in what goes on in the classroom. Allowing kids unstructured time makes the assumption that kids are basically good, and they will use this time for constructive purposes. The reality is that kids left on their own will usually make the WRONG choices and will generally find some kind of foolishness to get into. When this happens, the school is always liable for bad decisions the kids make.

USinUK said: interesting (and very sad) stuff - we’re not preparing our kids, we’re just doing stuff to make ourselves feel good.

You must be careful USinUK - you will get your “liberal card” revoked for talk like that! (Just kidding!)

By Gale

September 22, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

Bruno, And although Jack’s comment about the History channel might be politically oriented even though a lot of their programming has nothing to do with political history, you are right about the interpretation factor. Without a way-back machine, we can only make guesses about the how and why things happened. Unless there is a serious change to physics, 2+2 will always be 4.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

In chatting with my office manager today regarding this week’s topic, she came up with the following differences between the kids of today and the kids of yesteryear:

(1) Children today have much more power over their parents and teachers due to the threat of calling DFACS or initiating a lawsuit if they feel they have been disciplined too harshly. As a result, there often are no consequences to poor behavior on their part, with predictable results.

(2) Many years ago, the norm was a 2-parent home in which Mom typically stayed home and interacted with the kids for many hours. In today’s world, single parent homes predominate, and even in two-parent homes, both parents typically work outside of the home for long hours. By the time Mom and Dad get home, they are frazzled, and don’t want to be “bothered” with family activities. This may be the reason for the dawn-to-dusk “structured activities” that Gale and others mentioned earlier today.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

The History Channel is generally considered conservative because it spends a great deal of time on the various wars, which are mostly considered to have been conducted by conservatives. Not because history isn’t kind to democrats.

If you study the major wars of this century, Nikita, US involvement was initiated by the Democrats, not the Republicans. WW1—Woodrow Wilson, WW2—FDR, Korean War—Harry Truman, Vietnam—JFK, Balkans War—Bill Clinton. It wasn’t until Bush Sr. and Jr. that Republicans became “war-mongers”. Apparently you aren’t much of a patron of the History Channel yourself.

Yeesh. Somebody remind me why this always has to be a partisan bickerfest.

Glad you’re so non-partisan yourself, especially since you don’t have your facts straight.

By Nikita

September 22, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

P.S. Failed to mention that a major factor in how successful a school is is how stationary its population is. NCLB actually accelerates volatility in the student body, and that’s not a good thing.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

When this happens, the school is always liable for bad decisions the kids make.

Great point, AGF. You beat me to the punch while I was still typing my blog.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

Nikita

The History Channel is generally considered conservative because it spends a great deal of time on the various wars, which are mostly considered to have been conducted by conservatives.

Which wars? WWII, started by Roosevelt.

Korea: Started by Truman.

Vietnam, Massively escalated our role from non-combatant advisers to full combat forces.

But the History channel talks about the Civil Rights movement and names names, and names political affiliations: something that PBS never does. They are not shy in pointing out who started the KKK, (actually revived the KKK), who fought against integration and who ran bigots for president (George Wallace).

By Archie

September 22, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Yes, teaching to the test is damaging our education system and so are politics. Mechanics fix cars and doctors make diagnoses without considering politics but education policy is set by people that have never taught. Get the politics out of education and our kids will be educated. There’s already a movement away from high stakes testing and I hope that movement is successful. I mean people that have never written a computer program never tell a programmer how to code at the basic level but in education teachers are evaluated on demeanor,diction, and ability to communicate and finally, test results when they,teachers, don’t control everything affecting test scores.

By Nikita

September 22, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

If you study the major wars of this century, Nikita, US involvement was initiated by the Democrats, not the Republicans.

Read carefully, Bruno. I said “conservatives,” a category which has referred to politicians of both affiliations at different points in history.

Also, you’re just proving my point. Though I won’t talk to you as rudely as you talk to me — as the saying goes, never wrestle a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

P.S. Failed to mention that a major factor in how successful a school is is how stationary its population is. NCLB actually accelerates volatility in the student body, and that’s not a good thing.

I agree with you regarding the stability factor, Nikita, but don’t see how NCLB promotes people moving around more. Can you explain your reasoning?

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Howdy, Archie—I bet you are a fan of Stephanie Mills. Such a sweet voice she has. Like they say on the XM station “The Groove”: Old school, so much less complicated.

Hope all is well with you and your family.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

WWII, started by Roosevelt.

????

I’ll be sure to pass that along to Germany (and Japan) - they’ll be releived to hear they had nothing to do with it.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

Bruno

How’s it going? Any luck on the job search? Love life?

I’ve been at the hospital all weekend. My GF was in a very bad car wreck on Thursday night. She is still in a coma and it is looking very bad. Lots of broken bones and severe head injuries. Some jerk talking on her cell phone ran a red light in an Escalade. Tested almost .2 on a breathalyzer. Of course she walked away from the wreck. My GF was in a BMW 5 series and it completely destroyed the car. I saw it this morning. You can’t even tell what kind of car it was. I am just doing some business before going back over there. I’ll be there a lot this week.

If you pray …

By Gale

September 22, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

AGF, I understand what you are saying in the context of unstructured time at school. I agree with you. I was actually talking about unstructured play outside school from the age of toddlers on. And I mean unstructured, not unwatched. I am not suggesting a toddler be left to his own devices. But if you have watched a three year old, and I am sure you have, there is a constant babble of what the micro world is doing.

Yes, when the child is at school, it is more difficult. Teachers are not parents and cannot know when harmless squabbling may boil over into something else. While we all know that children take unreasonable risks and a moment of distraction might spell a concussion or a broken bone, some parents are too ready to find blame instead of accepting that sometimes kids get hurt while playing. If those parents had been allowing unstructured time from an early age, they would understand that.

Bruno, your office manager, like many others is excusing the abdication of parenting. Just because you are busy does not mean you should not interact with, guide and discipline your child. It is the parent’s commitment. We need a good measurement of “harsh” when it comes to discipline. Personally, I think spanking children under the age of three provides a perfect understanding in children of where the boundries are. It doesn’t require a beating. A quick stinging slap to the behind will get attention where a ‘time out’ may not. Swift and consistent discipline is of course the key. Children are smart and will quickly learn to manipulate a parent who is not consistent.

By USinUK

September 22, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Truth -

My GF was in a very bad car wreck on Thursday night. She is still in a coma and it is looking very bad. Lots of broken bones and severe head injuries.

holy crap. I’m so sorry to hear it -

sending you and your gf good thoughts and best wishes for her recovery.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Hey, TOJ—Thanks for the shout. I’m still working for the same doctor since June, and will probably stay a while. I have a new GF as of last week. Things are moving fast with her, probably a liitle too fast for my tastes. But, what’s a fellow to do?? ; > }

So sorry to hear about your friend’s wreck. I’ve lobbied my state Senator, David Scott, several times to initiate cellphone driving penalties with no response. My feeling is that these legislators don’t want to pass laws which they will have to follow themselves. Numerous studies have shown cellphone drivers to be worse than drunk drivers. Personally, I don’t even OWN a cellphone.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

as the saying goes, never wrestle a pig. You get dirty and the pig enjoys it.

I’ll remember that one when I address you in the future.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

I’ll be sure to pass that along to Germany (and Japan) - they’ll be releived to hear they had nothing to do with it.

Where’s my love today, USinUK?? Are you saving it all for TOJ now?? ; > }

BTW, what is your opinion re the massive bailout of AIG, et.al.? I understand some of the reasoning behind it that if these companies fail, it could have a catastrophic “ripple effect”, but I still fail to see why poor management and poor business decisions shoud be rewarded. In the case of FannieMae and FreddieMac, I believe the gov’t is demanding the right to choose their future management. Quite a scary precedent, IMO.

By Bruno

September 22, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

Bruno, your office manager, like many others is excusing the abdication of parenting. Just because you are busy does not mean you should not interact with, guide and discipline your child. It is the parent’s commitment. We need a good measurement of “harsh” when it comes to discipline

Gale, sorry if I miscommunicated my OM’s point: She’s not excusing the current situation, just trying to understand it. She, along with I, am all for corporal punishment. “Spare the rod, spoil the child.”

By Nikita

September 22, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

Jack, I’m sorry to hear that. Sending good vibes for your GF’s recovery.

I agree with you regarding the stability factor, Nikita, but don’t see how NCLB promotes people moving around more. Can you explain your reasoning?

I currently live in a district which is organized around the concept of choice within some parameters. But there are several issues with “choice” — 1. our schools have always been underfunded, and parent involvement is essential to their success because it fills in some essential gaps. When we shift the focus to parent and children as consumers rather than collaborators, we lose a lot of personal investment, accountability, and so on. 2. Choice tends to be expensive to the city, because of additional transportation costs either on the parents or on the district. It also results in more time being spent on transportation than on quality time. And kids don’t get much exercise, because very few of them live where they learn. 3. Choice doesn’t have any meaning when the choices are equal or you can’t personally take an advantage.

NCLB stresses the free market over improvement of the actual schools, and places the blame for failure on the schools rather than on schools, parents, and children. It also encourages schools to force out students that the schools find difficult to educate before their presence can be taken as evidence of failure. It has some provisions to address the schools themselves, but those provisions are all punitive and make the schools even more unstable as staff are subject to sanctions, defunding, etc. And if a school actually does fail, its students are eligible to leave at district expense.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Sorry to hear that, Jack. I wish her luck. At least if the other driver was tested, I expect she was charged. Little consolation, though.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

USinUK, Bruno

Thanks for the kind thoughts. I just don’t know if she is going to make it. She looks like a mummy, wrapped from head to toe. One of the nurses said to be ready for the worst. She said she had never seen anyone hurt that bad and still live.

The woman that hit her in is jail on several charges including DUI. It was her 6th. She hadn’t had a drivers license in several years. She was immediately “lawyered up” and they tried to bail her out, but thanks to her own arrogance, she will stay in jail. My GF’s Mom was at the hearing this morning and said that the woman was unbelievable arrogant, speaking out over her own lawyer, at one point the judge threatened to have her removed. I’m wondering why she had 5 DUIs and was out of jail.

I am waiting on a couple of phone calls and then I need to hit the road.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Bruno, appologies to the OM. I think that is a common failure with text communication. Meaning is lost without body language. Often, the search for understanding is misconstrued as lack of understanding. It is often a problem with women communicating to men because men are more assertive in communication, usually.

Your phrase catastrophic “ripple effect”, with respect to the AIG failure reminds me of a suspension bridge failure. The visual matches the AIG failure pretty well, I think.

Nikita, I recently heard the city of Atlanta is no longer transporting students that attend charter or magnet schools. Do you think that would cause parents to leave children in the original district school?

By Gale

September 22, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

TOJ, Good grief! It is amazing how little feeling some people have for others. That woman sounds like she is a threat to society and should be locked up where she can get therapy.

By Jack

September 22, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

I will send some prayers your GF’s way TOJ. Hopefully the escalade driver had insurance and will spend some time in the pokey.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

Thanks Nikita

Thanks Gale

This is a nightmare. The first thing they did was to cut that long beautiful hair off. She was so particular about who fixed her hair. One whole side of her face is bandaged and her left leg and arm are both broken in several places. Several broken ribs, punctured lung, she has been in surgery more time than she has been out.

A couple of friends just pulled in the driveway. If I don’t get back on, ya’ll have a good night.

By Gale

September 22, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

This note to all, Remember to tell your significan other that you love them each and everytime you part company.

By The Other Jack

September 22, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

OK. I am heading back over to the hospital. I just learned that the Escalade was registered to a church in Florida. (WTF?!?!?!) She had no insurance (who would insure a person with 5 DUIs?) and has been involved in several accidents, two of which were hit and runs. I’m sure the hit and runs were because she was drunk and was running to avoid taking a breath test.

My laptop is in the shop so unless I get back over here, I won’t be checking in. Have a good night. Thanks for the prayers and good thoughts.

By NetBanker

September 22, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

Hey kids! I haven’t caught up on comments , but I see TOJ is having some problems. Hang in there and stand by your woman. I’m sure it will be a tough road ahead, but we all have an inner strength of which most of us aren’t aware until we need it.

I haven’t read either position and probably don’t have time to for a while, but my opinion on the question alone is that Yes, we are hurting education by teaching to the test. Things in education have changed so incredibly since I was in school (back when green blackboards and yellow chalk were a novelty) and it doesn’t seem for the better. The common theme I recall in teaching back in high school and college was critical thinking. I can’t even begin to imagine my teachers coaching us to pass a test instead of teaching us the analysis and thinking skills to figure out the answers on our own.

I saw some really quick comments about not segregating students by ability. That is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever heard. Students were segregated by ability back in the dark ages of my education and I’m glad they did. I’ve been the bored kid in the class because it’s below your level and it’s very demotivating. I also know it’s frustrating for the kid who is in over their head too. While egalitarianism is a nice concept it just doesn’t work when applied to sport or intelligence. We do NOT all have the same abilities. Help kids find what they are good at so they can excel at something. Just don’t expect everyone to excel at everything.

Hope everyone is doing well! ~hugs to the old timers~

By Gale

September 23, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

NetBanker: Help kids find what they are good at so they can excel at something. Just don’t expect everyone to excel at everything.

This is what the education administrators who have not actually spent time teaching kidds have missed the boat on. All kids deserve a good education. All kids deserve to be taught enough to be able to make a good living. A high school diploma should qualify a kid for more than McD counter help. We have 12 years. To be perfectly honest, a 6th grade education will serve to get most people functional in today’s society. A 6th grade student can handle algebra with a proper foundation. The problem is, we are losing them at an even younger age. If kids are grouped by ability and challenged to always improve, at that early age, they will improve and they will stay engaged. Once they become bored with learning what the public school provides, they will look elsewhere for intellectual stimulation and it might not be a very savory education that they find.

I cannot believe the slower learners in early grades miss the fact that the faster learners in their class are bored with the pace. I think the self-esteem problem is still there and probably at a more insidious subconscious level. I’ve been having a conversation this week with some coworkers about this topic.

warning: what follows is a rant. There are times when we have to step back from trying to even the playing field with kids. They will find their level without so much help. At some point, they will understand that the foul ball is still a failed effort even though mom is on the sidelines cheering because he hit the ball. C’mon people, a gutter ball is a gutter ball. Quit being a cheer leader and teach your children. Better they learn to deal with disappointments at an early age than much later when the disappointments come in bigger doses.

By Gandalf, the White

September 23, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

I have arisen from my battle, and I find I am now the kewlist wizard on the block! In Gwinnett they take the smart kids and focus on them and probe thier abilities, the dumb kids train for the test.
What does a Georgia Grad call a Vandy Grad?
BOSS!
hehe

By chuck

September 23, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

makes you wonder if anyone has audited this situation - how much in grants, etc, are offered to people taking remedial courses their freshman year? having said that, though, given how much more competitive that situation is, now, I doubt it would be as much as you might think.

The HOPE Scholarship does not pay for remedial classes at all.

Nice to see that you haven’t lost your touch Kimberly. I’ve got to get out of the way that “VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY” to kill public education. You do realize that’s just silly.

As for NCLB itself, there are, as with MOST government programs, both pros and cons.

PROS:

1) It made us focus on what we were doing wrong in public education and to begin looking at solutions. Public Education had become bloated, stagnant and complacent. Surprise, surprise, I blame this in large part on the democrats who have OWNED the votes of liberal teacher’s unions. Until the Republicans gained control of congress in the 90’s, messing with education was much like messing with the “third rail” of politics…social security. Teacher’s unions targeted ANYBODY who called for accountability.

2) It forced states to look at their curicula in light of NATIONAL standards. Our curriculum here in Georgia was characterized as “a mile wide and an inch deep” under our “Quality Core Curriculum” (QCC). This assessment was spot on. The Georgia Performance Standards (GPS) are not perfect, but they are a HUGE improvement over the QCC’s.

3) It gave states positive benchmarks they could use to hold individual schools accountable. These benchmarks gradually increase until 2014 when they reach 100% of students meeting the standard.

4) It gives parents a way out of failing schools for those who take education seriously and want better for their children. It also forces failing schools to OFFER free after school tutoring for all students who wish to take advantage of it.

There are however, some VERY SERIOUS FLAWS in NCLB.

CONS:

1) The role of the federal government in education, already too invasive, has become nearly unbearable to those of us who are conservatives. As I have said MANY times, the Department of Education at the federal level should be abolished along with a number of other cabinet level departments. The feds have NO BUSINESS meddling in the affairs of the states when it comes to education. At most, the federal role in education should be limited to serving as a clearinghouse for information on best practices. They should collect studies done by scholars and make those results available in an easily accessible database for use by education professionals. There is much to be said on this topic but I’ll stop before I spend too much time on my soap box.

2) Leaving aside my first point that it should never be an issue anyway and looking at what IS instead of what SHOULD BE, NCLB is unrealistic. When they named it, they set it up for failure. NO CHILD left behind means that 100% of students have to pass the test. That ain’t gonna happen my friends…EVER. There are just some kids who have ZERO motivation, for whatever reason, to pass some test. They just don’t care. You CANNOT hold a school or a teacher accountable for that. To get to 100% will take one of two things…cheating or dumbing down the test.

3) NCLB puts unnecessary pressure on kids and teachers. It may surprise some of you to hear this, but MOST TEACHERS are good at what they do. NOT PERFECT, but good. There is always room for improvement, but the cost of incremental improvement has to be weighed against the limited benefit that accrues. For instance, given more planning time and smaller classes, I could individualize instruction for EVERY CHILD that I teach. The result of that may or may not lead to a 100% pass rate on the test. Since I rarely if ever have less than a 92% pass rate on the test, would Georgians be willing to foot the bill of increasing the number of teachers by at least 40% to get class sizes down to the optimal 15-18 students per class to get near 100% pass rate? Probably not. Even at 15-18 students per class we won’t overcome the societal problems faced by many children who come to school ill-prepared, with little life-experience, and no problem-solving skills. Kids 8-9 years old who haven’t seen either parent in a couple of days because they were left to fend for themselves for the weekend while Mom or Dad was out carousing. I hate to sound defeatist, but NO AMOUNT of pressure from the feds is going to get us to 100%.

4) Funding is NEVER going to be available to fully implement NCLB and provide the kind of help schools will need to get to 100%.

Honestly, I know that I am doing everything I can do under the constraints of “public education” to teach my students and help them succeed. I’m not taking ANY MORE time away from my family than I already take for what would amount to very small levels of improvement, ESPECIALLY when failing students and their parents aren’t doing THEIR share to be successful. (You can lead a horse to…).

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Hope everyone is doing well! ~hugs to the old timers~

Hey NetB—Long time, no blog. Hope you and your partner are doing well and that your jobs are secure. This economy is downright frightening. The stock market plunge took longer than I expected, but it’s happening right now. I was extremely fortunate to be able to sell my commercial property back in January before the big slide in real estate prices hit.

The more I learn about the proposed government bailout of FreddieMac, FannieMae, and AIG, the more frightened I’m becoming. Though the details haven’t been released yet, part of the proposal involves appointing the Secretary of Treasury to be a “financial czar” with far-reaching powers, not subject to court oversight or any other “checks-and-balances”. I understand that we are in a financial crisis, but it sounds like the “cure” might be worse than the “problem”.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

Honestly, I know that I am doing everything I can do under the constraints of “public education” to teach my students and help them succeed. I’m not taking ANY MORE time away from my family than I already take for what would amount to very small levels of improvement, ESPECIALLY when failing students and their parents aren’t doing THEIR share to be successful. (You can lead a horse to…).

chuck—Glad you weighed in this week. In the end, I see the problem of how to best educate young people as primarily a problem of motivation, and not so much one of resources and curricula. The information is out there for anyone who is motivated enough to seek it out. Nikita mentioned a lack of funding in her area as being the largest problem, but I disagree. Last time I checked, North and South Dakota spent the least per pupil per year, yet perenially finish near the top in terms of performance. At the other end of the scale, Washington D.C. spends the most per pupil, but perenially finishes near the bottom in terms of student performance. More locally, the City of Atlanta spends nearly $12,000 per year per pupil—more than Cobb and Gwinnett—with lousy results.

I’m not an expert in how to best educate young people, but I do know something about motivation. The key, IMO, is to make the students themselves responsible for their own education ASAP. Parental involvement can be helpful, but done in the wrong way, it can actually be a hindrance to self-reliance.

By chuck

September 23, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

Hey NetB, I’m interested in what you think about the bailouts since you are in the business. I for one think it was a really bad idea. If this was the “oil” barrons, people would be going to jail, not getting “bailed out”.

TOJ, praying for your girl friend…putting her on the prayer list at church too. I hope everything turns out all right.

Brudog, right with you on the bailout. Looks like a power play by the gov’t to me.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

There are times when we have to step back from trying to even the playing field with kids. They will find their level without so much help. At some point, they will understand that the foul ball is still a failed effort even though mom is on the sidelines cheering because he hit the ball. C’mon people, a gutter ball is a gutter ball. Quit being a cheer leader and teach your children. Better they learn to deal with disappointments at an early age than much later when the disappointments come in bigger doses.

Again, Gale, I am far removed from education since I don’t have any kids, but I have been distressed for many years at the so-called “self-esteem” movement instituted both at school and within youth sports leagues. E.G. Every kid is given a trophy at the conclusion of Little League baseball now so that no one “feels bad” for not receiving one. Similarly, there are “graduation ceremonies” following kindergarten, sixth grade, etc. Basically, we’re rewarding kids for just showing up, further lowering the achievement bar for everyone in the process. Certainly, I don’t want kids to have poor self-esteem, but esteem needs to be tied to achievement in some way.

By chuck

September 23, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

We agree again Brudog. You just can’t spoon feed students and then expect them to be successful in a real world that doesn’t care about their problems, only their results. They have to take responsibility for their own learning. We try to show them the value of education, but there is only so much we can do.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Nice to see that you haven’t lost your touch Kimberly. I’ve got to get out of the way that “VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY” to kill public education. You do realize that’s just silly.

It is pretty ironic, chuck, how often the “inclusive” liberals here are quick to demonize Republicans/conservatives for every problem under the sun within our society. I’m still reeling from Nikita’s assessment that all the major wars have been “mostly considered to have been conducted by conservatives”. When I pointed out to her that it has been primarily Democratic Presidents who have gotten the US involved in the major wars of this century, she got nasty to me and tried to claim that they were “conservative Democrats”. Huh?

I’ll the first to happily ditch the “blame game” which has consumed this blog for the past few years. Let’s work together to solve problems and stop wasting time pointing fingers.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

We agree again Brudog. You just can’t spoon feed students and then expect them to be successful in a real world that doesn’t care about their problems, only their results. They have to take responsibility for their own learning. We try to show them the value of education, but there is only so much we can do.

I wish I had more faith in the young people of today, but from my limited interactions with them, I’m not impressed. None of them seem to have the ability to make change at a restaurant without pulling out a calculator. I truly believe that the prevalence of electronic gadgets has become a major distraction in their lives. The level of rudeness that both young people and adults display in using their cellphones, Blackberries, etc. is appalling to me.

TOJ, praying for your girl friend…putting her on the prayer list at church too. I hope everything turns out all right.

Can’t say that I believe in prayer, but that is a kind thought for TOJ and his girl.

By Heather

September 23, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Keeping focus on the goal and the test will take care fo itself means simply this, teach! Teach waht these children should know and they will have the tools necessary to pass these tests. You need to take into account the number of children who are currently on IEP and have difficulities passing and comprehending subjects through the year. How do they weigh into the percentage of children who don’t pass tests like the CRCT or the Writing tests. Also take into account the number of children who first have to learn to speak English, first having to comprehend our language before comprehending these other factors. I know this for a fact because this is the very reason we left Fulton County Schools and moved to Forsyth County. These schools should be held accountable, teachers should be held accountable. But not everything is black & white. My daughter was an all A&B student in her 5th grade year. She passed the English portion of the CRCT but failed the Math by 5 points of the score requirement. She then went to the 6 weeks summer school and retook the Math again, this time she failed by three points. So should she have been held back? An all A&B student who did well all year but fell a little short on one portion of the test. No she shouldn’t be held back, and her committee decided the same as well. It’s easier to point the finger from the outside looking in. But you have to take a closer look at the the whole situtation. I think the program’s bigger point will work, it just has to have the problems worked out. And for the record if a child drops out of school, I do feel the parent should go to jail for that, the same way the attendance laws are inforced in GA. What else is more improtatnt than your child thatn to stay in school.

By kimberly

September 23, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Thanks Chuck, for weighing in on this topic. I appreciate the perspective of someone who actually has an understanding of kids. (Beyond a desire to beat them.) I know you like to throw around catch phrases to impress, but I never mentioned a “vast right wing conspiracy,” only my obervations and discussions about literature. It would be really cool if you didn’t treat me like the enemy on this one, since I’m a parent that actully puts forth the effort to educate my own kids and see they excel in school instead of disrupting it, okay? (Geez, some people are just never happy!)

Regading NCLB, from what I have observed, there ARE kids getting left behind — quietly swept under the rug and out into the community with no skills to earn their own way in the world. Am I blaming YOU for that? No, but don’t dare try to blame me! I’m actually a parent who gives a rat’s a—!

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Sorry if this is a double-blog, but here is a list of the per-pupil costs broken down by state. The text link is: nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html#t5

By Gale

September 23, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Speaking to the issue of tests as measurement, we should understand two more things about why we will not make 100% in this program. Some kids will recognize the test is just not meaningful to them personally and may be rebellious enough to simply blow the test. Some kids may understand the material, but just not take tests well. Maybe they stress too much over being tested. A third issue in my experience is my dyslexic nephew. He is a very bright boy who always read way over level and had a good understanding of math and science. He could verbalize all of what he knew. BUt when asked to write answers, he would fail. Some students will not be equal when it comes to a test, no matter what we do.

By The Other Jack

September 23, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Chuck

Thanks, but put her family on the prayer list. She doesn’t need the prayers. She died last night. She never woke up. That’s probably a good thing.

Her family is taking her back to her home so I won’t even be able to attend the funeral.

They are having a short memorial service tonight for her American friends. God I dread that.

Thanks everyone for your kind words. I will probably stay away for a while. I have a lot to figure out.

Jack

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

(Beyond a desire to beat them.)

Can you at least give me credit for having the foresight to NOT bring any little boogers into the world??

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

Thanks, but put her family on the prayer list. She doesn’t need the prayers. She died last night. She never woke up. That’s probably a good thing.

Sad news, TOJ. If it’s any comfort, you have the full support of the W2W community.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

It would be really cool if you didn’t treat me like the enemy on this one

A little unsolicited advice for you: When you badmouth conservatives at every turn, you have to expect a little flak in return.

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Speaking to the issue of tests as measurement, we should understand two more things about why we will not make 100% in this program. Some kids will recognize the test is just not meaningful to them personally and may be rebellious enough to simply blow the test. Some kids may understand the material, but just not take tests well. Maybe they stress too much over being tested. A third issue in my experience is my dyslexic nephew. He is a very bright boy who always read way over level and had a good understanding of math and science. He could verbalize all of what he knew. BUt when asked to write answers, he would fail. Some students will not be equal when it comes to a test, no matter what we do.

As someone who excelled at test-taking, I agree with you 100% regarding your comments, Gale. The disconnect between “education” and “real life” lies in the fact that rarely are people tested on their memories in the workplace. One of the reasons I am so proud to have attended Harvey Mudd College is tat virtually all the tests were of the “open-book” variety. We were tested strictly on our ability to reason, not on our ability to memorize and regurgitated data.

By kimberly

September 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

My condolences to TOJ for his loss. There are no words for that sort of thing.

I’m checking out now, too, since it’s not possible to discuss a topic without getting slimed with “advice.” Some things never change.

Please support the kids/parents who come to you with their annoying fundraisers! It really is good wrapping paper, and the waxy chocolates make a great gift for the neighbors at holiday time! Thanks! Now where’s my hand sanitizer?

By Gale

September 23, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

I was another one those that found tests fun and challenging. It always got me grouped with kids who were actually brighter than me in the math classes so I had to struggle. But no harm in that. But I do feel for kids that freeze up when it comes to testing. My step-son was one. I did lots of coaching, but he didn’t buy the idea that taking tests for fun would make taking the real tests easier.

By chuck

September 23, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry Kimberly, I thought this post was yours:

By NCLB wants schools to fail. The one question Dr. Mary Cohen, Margaret Spellings, or any other NCLB apologists don’t want to answer is this: If the law is designed to help schools succeed, then why is it that by 2014, a school will “fail” if even a single child in the school doesn’t pass the test?

If this post was not yours then my bad. It sounded like one of your pseudonyms. Obviously I was NOT talking about you when I said failing students and their parents. As I have told you many times, I admire the extra effort that you take to put your kids first. There are a lot of single Moms (and married moms and married dads and single dads) out there who are definitely not doing that

By Gale

September 23, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

slimed with advice, Kimberly? If it was something I said, I’m sorry. Aquarians, and particularly this aquarian are known for saying insulting things without meaning to.

By Gandalf, the Rainbow Warrior

September 23, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

I can’t do this white thing, so I am taking the Rainbow back for GLHQFs. Rainbows are a gift from God, to all of us. Hawaii use to have the Rainbow Warrior as their mascot, but it wasn’t to Gay! BS I say. Kimberly, don’t bring your kids around my neighborhood, we are trying to sell Boy Scout Popcorn! Only so much water in the well. Good luck with the wrapping paper. Democrats get us into wars, I know me and my family has been fighting them for over 100 years. That’s why we are Rebulican. So Obama means a war, war means lots of jobs, and lots of men away from home. So Get LAID and vote for OBAMA! Was the the stupidest thing I ever said? I think so! YEAH! GO Gandalf!

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

slimed with advice, Kimberly? If it was something I said, I’m sorry. Aquarians, and particularly this aquarian are known for saying insulting things without meaning to.

Rest easy, Gale. My strong feeling is that her comments aren’t directed at you. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about kimberly, it’s this: she’s always ready, willing, and able to sling her poison arrows, but God forbid if anyone ever returns fire. She likes to take on the victim role, but God forbid if anyone who cares deeply in their hearts for her ever offers “advice”. If I were smarter, I would simply ignore her entirely. I guess I’m just not very smart when it comes to some things….

By Bruno

September 23, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

TOJ—Here’s a song tribute for you from Diana Ross:

You’re far away From me my love (say it, baby) And just as sure my, my baby As there are stars above I wanna say it, wanna say it, wanna say it

Someday we’ll be together Oh, yes, we will, yes, we will (Say it) Someday (some sweet day) we’ll be together I know, I know, I know, I know

My love is yours, baby Oh, right from the start (baby, honey) You, you, you posses my soul now, honey And I know, I know you own my heart And I wanna say it (tell ‘em)

Someday we’ll be together Oh, yes, we will, yes, we will (Say it) Someday (some sweet day) we’ll be together I know, I know, I know, I know

Our thoughts are with you….

By Gale

September 23, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Bruno, the best thing about advice is you get to ignore it. I prefer to not shoot barbs because the paybacks are always painfull in my experience. However, I tend to be blunt and it sometimes causes offense where none is meant. And I noticed that I have been rather wordy of late.

By GTG

September 23, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

Gale, that’s the spirit! When times get tough, Aquarians get mean as heck! Be rude on the way home tonight! TailGATE and cuz a bunch! YEAH MEAN!

By chuck

September 24, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this

Truth, I am really sorry to hear about your loss. Such a senseless waste. The sad thing is, there will probably be no justice either. While seeking revenge wastes our energy, I don’t think that it is too much to ask that JUSTICE be meted out to offenders. Especially REPEAT offenders.

The thing that is probably the most productive for us is to seek justice and at the same time forgive those who have wronged us. It almost seems oxymoronic to do that, but I believe that the Bible teaches us both things. The first is a lot easier than the second, but we usually don’t have peace until we do both. You are in my prayers Bro.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

GTG, You usually go way beyond blunt. This is not a great time to be mean on the road in Atlanta. I might encounter a person who is running on empty and just got jostled away from the last gallon at the fifth gas station he tried. Could be a confrontation. You know what they say about aquarians fighting with their hats?

By Gale

September 24, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

chuck, Know what the worst thing about the ‘justice’ for the repeat offender that killed Truth’s GF? If it does go to court, the defense will probably keep all the old offenses off the record so a jury won’t know about them. Sometimes I think defense attornys have the vilest job on the planet.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

If anyone wants a sarcastic view of the bailout, try Mark Morford’s latest column at sfgate.com.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Howdy, Gale. Looks like the blog is kaput this week due to a weak topic along with the absence of TOJ, Mara, and USinUK.

If anyone wants a sarcastic view of the bailout, try Mark Morford’s latest column at sfgate.com.

One thing that puzzles me is a recent poll which blames Republicans 2-1 for the mortgage crisis and the subsequent poor economy. From the research I’ve done, the loosening of the mortgage underwriting standards began during the Clinton years and accelerated under Bush. The driving force behind this came primarily from Democratic lawmakers and activists who clamored for looser standards so that the dream of homeownership would be within the reach of “poor” people. While this is a noble goal, the modus operandi to accomplish it was a reduction in the downpayment requirements along with the allowance of “creative financing” such as “no-interest” loans which contained a “balloon payment” on the back end.

Back in 2005, John McCain, along with other Republicans, recognized the impending disaster and tried to pass reform legislation which would reign in FreddieMac and FannieMae. Unfortunately, the bill was defeated, primarily by Democrats (Obama included) who voted strictly along party lines. As such, I find it ironic that Obama is being touted as the candidate of change when it was John McCain who saw the crisis coming and tried to do something about it.

By Gandalf, the Blue

September 24, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Gale! I WAS BEING SARCASTIC! Ever heard of me doing that before! BE VERY NICE TO PEOPLE, Especially people with Obama stickers, in traffic. They aren’t stable right now.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

Gale—I perused the column you mentioned. Unfortunately, it offered no realistic analysis of the proposed bailout other than to castigate Bush. To put things into perspective, bailout #1 is calling for a $700,000,000,000 infusion of cash for Lehman Bros, AIG, FreddieMac, and FannieMae, et.al. With a population of roughly 300,000,000 in the US, with only about 100,000,000 paying any REAL taxes, that works out to roughly $7000 per taxpayer, assuming the money comes from taxes and it isn’t simply printed by the Treasury. My stron gguess is that the Feds will simply print the money, which will lead to further weakening of the US dollar ( = higher fuel costs) along with inflation within the US.

Any way you slice or dice it, it is a grim picture. I’ve done my best to prepare myself personally for the impending disaster but, unfortunately, my income isn’t what it used to be and I’m struggling to pay my bills along with everyone else. Now I wish I had chosen a career as an actuary so that I’d be making around 100K per year. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Bruno, we all know that as long as we (et al) are playing blame game, we will not get to a workable solution. I tend to agree that the ‘noble’ ideal of everyone owning their own home. But I am also pragmatic enough to know it is not realistic for anyone living from pay check to pay check, no matter how much I might want their good will (and vote). Likewise most programs aimed at helping the poor end up hurting them and everyone else. The truth is we cannot help people without a sustainable process. The housing/credit problem may have started noble. But once the prices started climbing, speculation and downright cheating came into play fueled by plain old greed. The market was not self-sustaining. There was no … what should we call it, steam valve? overflow? Safety net is the phrase many are using. But I have trouble believing that many loans were granted with the expectation of full payment. I am sure they (the brokers) fully expected defaults. They fully expected they would then sell the property again. Failure was not considered on the grand scale. And now, the media is not helping the picture. Housing starts are down again! Well, duh!

Anyway, back to the point. It may have started with a liberal community activist plan to enrich the lives of the poor. But career profiteers from many professions blew up the bubble to the extreme size at the bust.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

In deference to these depressing times, I present to you all “The Dream” by Graeme Edge:

When the white eagle of the North is flying overhead

The browns, reds and golds of autumn lie in the gutter, dead.

Remember then, that summer birds with wings of fire flaying

Came to witness springs new hope, born of leaves decaying.

Just as new life will come from death, love will come at leisure.

Love of love, love of life and giving without measure

Gives in return a wonderous yearn of a promise almost seen.

Live hand-in-hand and together we’ll stand on the threshold of a dream.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

Anyway, back to the point. It may have started with a liberal community activist plan to enrich the lives of the poor. But career profiteers from many professions blew up the bubble to the extreme size at the bust.

Gale, that may be the best two-sentence summary of the current crisis we are in that I’ve seen. I greatly appreciate the fairness and even-handedness expressed within your summary. Too many people get so caught up in the “blame game” in an effort to cast their chosen political party in a better light that fairness is tossed to the winds.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

Bruno, yes, any way you slice it. I just try to keep my debts low. Morford doesn’t offer anaysis. It is just entertainment and he is obviously partisan. I don’t agree with him the the big O is the answer and I don’t agree that Bush is a demon. I do think Bush is an idiot. The economists have come right out and said that the treasury and the Fed are manufacturing money. I sure wish I could do that. I’d get some things fixed right now.

It is quiet this week. I think it is the missing people rather than the topic. We haven’t let a weak topic get in the way before. I was hoping some more of the lurkers and irregular posters would come out. But for now, it’s just us merry three.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

I think that should have been ‘we merry three’ instead of ‘us’.

By Gandalf, the Blue

September 24, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

NATIONALIZE ALL THE BANKS AND HOSPITALS AND BUSINESSES, what? We have to wait till after the election to begin, oh, OK, NEVER MIND!
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” Karl Marx

“Four legs good, Two Legs bad!” George Orwell, Animal Farm

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

It is the blame game, and the power game, that keeps the congress from accomplishing anything. Those two are hand in hand.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

I think that should have been ‘we merry three’ instead of ‘us’.

No problem, Gale. I’ve always preferred to be a “big fish in a small pond” than the other way around.

Your phrase reminds me of one of my very favorite albums by Genesis “And Then There Were Three”. (I guess we have to include Gandalf, despite his ongoing rudeness). ; > }

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

NATIONALIZE ALL THE BANKS AND HOSPITALS AND BUSINESSES, what? We have to wait till after the election to begin, oh, OK, NEVER MIND!

It is sad to me, Gandalf, how few true patriots are left in this country. IMO, the “average” person WANTS socialism, so that they no longer have to make choices and take responsibility for those choices. Never mind the mountain of evidence which shows that under socialism, all boats sink with the falling tide.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Gandalf, the more the government acts, the more that quote from Marx comes to mind. So much for the great defender of democracy, the good ol USA.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

It is the blame game, and the power game, that keeps the congress from accomplishing anything. Those two are hand in hand.

I guess, in the end, the “real problem” which creates societal problems is simply human nature itself. Despite any noble goals we may state, in the end, we are selfish, greedy, short-sighted creatures like the rest of the animal world.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Gandalf has been doing much better lately. ssssh. Don’t let him hear that. He might stop contributing to the discussion and I wouldn’t want that.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

The average person wants socialism as long as they still get to do what they want, like hunt wolves from helicopters.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

So much for the great defender of democracy, the good ol USA.

Did you perhaps mean “the great defender of FREEDOM”, Gale?? Not to split hairs, but we’re not a true democracy, and for good reason.

Maybe kimberly will come back and give us the John Adams’ reasoning behind why we’re not a true democracy (hint: it has something to do with the ‘tyranny of the masses’).

Where are you, kimberly? When you’re not trying to run down conservatives/Republicans, you usually have a lot to say.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

Gotta take a break for a while, Gale. C U soon.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

No, Bruno, I meant democracy. I am aware that we are not a true democracy and I have many reasons to be thankful for that. For one thing, it prevents the masses from voting to send all queers to a remote island and let them rot there. (pardom my spite.) The problem I have with the rhetorical defender of democracy for the world, is that sends a very slanted message to developing worlds about the value of democracy. When we have problems and the government steps in like now, our vaulted goals are questioned.

You may remember recent stuggles in Iraq to explain why the S** majority should not have all the seats in their congress? They are the majority. The general populace understands democracy as majority rule. Many of our own citizens think it should be that way too. My favourite misuse of this was when we used this phrase to justify our presense in Viet Nam. It was one of many, I know. BUt I remember clearly how stupid it seemed to me that we were lauding democracy to people just trying to feed themselves and stay alive.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this

BUt I remember clearly how stupid it seemed to me that we were lauding democracy to people just trying to feed themselves and stay alive.

It seems like we had a similar problem in Central and South America during the 1980s and 1990s trying to “sell” them on the idea that a democratically elected gov’t along with free markets is the best way to live. When the free market reforms didn’t bring the promised prosperity, it opened the door to people like Hugo Chavez to grab power.

I don’t have all the answers to the world’s problems, but it seems like a democratically elected gov’t and free markets are defifnitely the best way to go, both in S.America AND the Middle East. Unfortunately, due to the prevalence of “tribal loyalties” (and “racial loyalty” here in the US), democratically elected govts are still subject to the “tyranny of the masses”.

By Patrick

September 24, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

I think both viewpoints are correct. The school systems have placed undo emphasis on the testing scores. My local school district forces teachers to set goals at the start of the year that the teacher wants to see her students meet at the year end testing. Then if their students don’t meet the requirements it is noted on the teachers record. There is way too much emphasis on those tests.

But NCLB is flawed. It assumes that all students are capable of the same the level of learning. They aren’t. Some are smarter, some not so smart. In a sense it assumes all students learn in the same manner and at the same speed. (It was because of this act that groupings were dropped.) And worse of all, it tends to bring most students to a happy medium. Sure, lower level children are pulled up in a lot of cases, but children who are advanced but not quite gifted get “dumbed down” (I hate to use that phrase).

Unfortunately, when you enact an education initiative and make school funding contingent on that initiative, you get exactly what happened. Teachers start teaching to the test.

By the way, the fact that critical thinking skills are not being taught is an effect of the curriculum that is being taught and not necessarily NCLB. Sitton Spelling and Everyday math are killing the thought processes of our children.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Interesting the W2W censor does not like that Islamic sect that is the majority is Iraq. The word was censored.

Re:NCLB flaws. Yet when people say it isn’t working and should be trashed, they are criticised as not caring for our children’s education. I wonder. What was the problem we were trying to fix in the first place? Wasn’t it that some schools are bad and the children were being poorly educated? Why do we always institue some broad, apply to everyone fix for problems that only effect a few. It is that PC notion again. Treat everyone the same. After more than a generation of this nonsense, it should be obvious that everyone is not the same.

By GTG

September 24, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

My son’s school had some silly (DUMBASS) “windmills for peace” rally. Students were asked to write on a handheld windmill. I asked if he made one, he said yes. I said what did you put on in? HIS ANSWER:
Kill for Peace
. I was inspired…
I wrote the following letter to his principle:
Dear Sir (she is a female and a doctor):
Are you teaching our children that peace is some how preferred to war? On what basis would you propose such a lie? As long as there are enemies to our way of life the divine purpose of the American fighting men is to engage and destroy these enemies. If you can show me that date when all enemies of our constitution, both foreign and domestic, died, I will agree with your PEACE DAY. Until thenteach these fine young Americans values that will serve them well in combat, peace is for pussies!
Sinecerly,
Gandalf, the Grey
US Army (Retired)

He is 13 and nearly outshoots me in Trap and Skeet, I still hold an edge in pistol, but he outshoots me beyond 500 meters in long arms, my eyes are getting bad.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

I did a quick google search of the phrase “tryanny of the masses” and found that a similar phrase “the tyranny of the majority” is credited to Alexis de Tocqueville. I’ve always found it somewhat interesting that his book, Democracy in America, is often widely hailed as the greatest book about the US “experiment in democracy”. I surmise his interest was realted to the fact that the American Revolution set the stage for the soon-to-follow French Revolution.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

It is that PC notion again. Treat everyone the same. After more than a generation of this nonsense, it should be obvious that everyone is not the same.

Gale, you’re singing my song! You are the type of “liberal” that I can get along with extremely well—you have common sense and realize that the world is imperfect.

Sinecerly, Gandalf, the Grey US Army (Retired)

I understand where you are coming from now, Gandalf. Fortunately, I missed the Vietnam draft by a few years.

By Gale

September 24, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

13 year olds have great reflexes. But your experience, if there is some should show in skeet, Gandalf. I used to shoot with a guy that was half blind who out shot most of us at skeet. Really, unless it is windy, the target will always be in the same place.

With your attitude about the “divine purpose” I can see why you like Palin. Personally, I figure she is among those who would vote to put me on an island to rot.

By GTG

September 24, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

PATRICK get off the fence pal!

By GTG

September 24, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

I loved the line in Stripes, “I didn’t want to get drafted so I voluteered”, “there isn’t a draft anymore”. His reply “there was one?” “And if you call me Francis, I’ll kill ya!” and the greatest line of all time “Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

By Gale

September 24, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

If I remember correctly, de Tocqueville and Rousseau were influential to our founding fathers.

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

My new GF, who is a teacher, told me last night that I wouldn’t make a good math teacher. Her reasoning? She says that I’m just too nice! ; > } In her words, today’s teachers, especially in an urban environment, have to be policemen first, and teachers second. I wonder if she’ll have the same opinion of me after I spank her a time or two……

By Bruno

September 24, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

“Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Belushi was on fire in Animal House, for sure. One of my favorite scenes was when he smashed the guitar of the idyllic folk singer at the toga party. My favorite scene in AH was when the young girl passed out at the toga party, and a little angel and a little devil appeared on the young man’s shoulder. Classic!

By Gale

September 24, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

Bruno, the new GF happened very quickly. Keep details of that nature to yourself, please.

I always fround it unfair that good teachers are worth way more than they are paid, and bad teachers can’t be fired. In today’s environment, we seem to handcuff the good teachers because some people won’t like their methods. I hate to think what would have happened at home if I had talked back to a teachre, much less struck a teacher.

By Sunshine

September 24, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

As long as there are enemies to our way of life the divine purpose of the American fighting men is to engage and destroy these enemies. If you can show me that date when all enemies of our constitution, both foreign and domestic, died, I will agree with your PEACE DAY. Until thenteach these fine young Americans values that will serve them well in combat, peace is for pussies!

Your joking right? You made this up? You could not possibly be teaching your child these sentiments? I am blown away. So you believe that the imperialism the US has engaged in correct? Then you sir or no conservative. What about teaching and training our young men to protect, not seek out? Are we so engulfed in all this war mongering that our children are allowed to use a sexist and misogynistic term to deface a concept that all (most all) humans desire?

By GTG

September 25, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

Peace? That’s when all our enemies are dead!

By Gale

September 25, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

Political quote of the week: “If you need me, call me.” Senator Obama apparently thinks the crisis that has congress working overtime does not merit his attention on the job he was elected to do.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

A p*** is a little Cat, another word for kitten, you (DUMBASS), always reading some sexist crapola into everything. They are afraid of everything, hence the use as a derogatory.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this

Slang A man regarded as weak, timid, or unmanly
Informal A cat.
Botany A fuzzy catkin, especially of the p*** willow.
There is another use for the word, but to assume someone is using Vulgar slang belittles both the accuser and the accused.
Sunshine everytime you write something down, it strengthens my contention that you are indeed a (DUMBASS)!

By GTG

September 25, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

Gale, the economy is nothing that Nobama worries about! He has a plan! Nationalize everything, no need for a bail out. He is just waiting to unveil his plan.

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

And GTG every time you write something it strengthens my suspicion that you are a prepubescent little boy. The thought of you teaching your hate fueled rantings to children is frightening.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

mornin’ all. boring topic. anyway…

Gale - If I remember correctly, de Tocqueville and Rousseau were influential to our founding fathers.

Just one little note on Tocqueville…he wasn’t born until 1805 so I don’t think he had much influence at all on the FF’s. And Rousseau, though he at times held some esteem in the philosophical circles of the Enlightenment, never really caught on in American thinking. Being ‘children of the Enlightenment’, our founders surely read some of his works but there are very few references to him (or his philosophies) in their writings and correspondances.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

SUNSHINE, STFU! HAVE A NICE DAY YOU LITTLE NAZI!

By Mara

September 25, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Interesting the W2W censor does not like that Islamic sect that is the majority is Iraq. The word was censored. — and don’t try typing in our Vice President’s name because the common diminutive of “Richard” doesn’t make it through the filter either.

Senator Obama apparently thinks the crisis that has congress working overtime does not merit his attention on the job he was elected to do — or maybe he thinks that those who know economic better than he does should be the ones crafting the legislation. Once the “experts” have crafted some possible fixes for the problems, then the legislators can come in, put their two cents in, and figure out how to implement those solutions.

Why is it a bad thing that he’s waiting for the economists to finish their preliminary work before he comes charging in? Isn’t it better that he doesn’t pretend to know everything and is willing to see what the professionals come up with before he starts running his mouth about what we need to do?

sorry if I seem to be picking on you, but at the moment, it’s just you, me, GtG, and “sunshine”. GtG and Sunshine are busy trading insults, so that just leaves you and I… :^)

By GTG

September 25, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

Sunshine, why the hate filled rants? You are such a (DUMBASS) you would allow the enemy to take over without a fight. You are able to sit back in your peaceful chair and write your silly little post because of men like me going out and fighting the enemy. Now please STFU!

By Gale

September 25, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

Mara, thanks for the lesson. I knew I should have looked it up first. Rousseau I do remember. You could be right that he was only one of many.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

Mara, I can’t trade with Sunshine, she has nothing to bring to the table, except for being a (DUMBASS) :-)!

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

Sorry, I will stop feeding the trolls!

Mara I agree with your assertion about waiting till he has more info on the financial situation until Mr. Obama acts. Is it just me or does it seem that Mr. McCain seems to make quick and rash decisions. Some might believe this is a good thing but I think level and calm headed is a better temperament for the job of President. It seems that so many of Mr. McCain’s statements are “off the cuff” and this could really be the down fall of a politician.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Mara, I think the economists have already said what they need. Congress appears to be trying to add the rules by which it can be done. I don’t hear many people saying the plan should not go forward, it is a matter of how. I don’t expect either Obamma or McCain to have serious input into the plan as devised by the economists. Paulson and Bernanke are way over most people’s heads in understanding and theorizing the Ifs and If nots of this situation. I expect congress to keep cool heads and provide a solution that will work without creating unintended consequences. Clearly, as one of these men will be the next president, he should have input into the implementation of the plan. The debates can be rescheduled.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

Sunshine, Returning to the senate in the midst of a global financial crisis does not seem like a rash decision to me. Depending on what he does there, it may turn out that way. I’ll wait and see. I did think naming Palin as VP was a rash decision, but that is something else again.

I found it telling that the democratic leaders didn’t want Obama back in DC. That says to me that they know there is nothing he could add to the process. McCain is know for his ability to bring the two sides together. Obama has not been in the senate long enough to forge any relationships to help in the process.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

Gale, BIDEN wasn’t a rash decision? He’s a joke! Has no assests after being a Senator for 30 plus years, gives nothing to charity. My kind of man. He need to stay the hell away from our economy. Great Depression?

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Hi Gale!

I think that on the surface Mr. McCain descision to “susspend his campain” and return to Washington looks good, but if you look past just the first few layer there are other facts here and it is obvious this is a political stunt.

1) Mr. McCain has not voted or been in Washington since April, why now? Why not last week, when the poll numbers were better? Mr. Obama was there last in July, not much better but he was campaining too!

2) Mr. McCain has openly said he doesn’t understand very well (In December 2007, McCain similarly said: “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should. I’ve got Greenspan’s book.”) so why do you think he is going to help “solve” this problem.

3) I just think it is fishy after these debates have been planned for over 10 months, the day before he wants to pull out. Think of the amount of money in the economy of MI that would be lost to reschedule these debates, the estimate is around 5 million. AND he wants to reschedule the debates for Oct 2, the same day at the VP debates, hmmmmmmm!

Why do the Republicans think that they are above talking with the press and the American people?

(Facing heavy criticism for not taking questions from his traveling press corps in 40 days, Sen. John McCain relented and held a press conference this afternoon in Freeland, Mich. It lasted for slightly more than 10 minutes, and McCain took a total of six questions — well, seven if you count the two-parter from Bloomberg’s Ed Chen) ( She (Palin) was in New York on Tuesday meeting with world leaders at the U.N. And what did the McCain campaign do?They tried to ban reporters from covering those meetings. And they did ban reporters from asking Gov. Palin any questions.) (On Wednesday, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino said that Bush has not taken questions from the press in over seven weeks because he wants to “make sure this election remains fully focused on the two candidates”:)

By Gale

September 25, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Biden was maligned by most as a typical bland running mate who would not make terrible gaffs. I have the feeling McCain picked Palin for a distraction and figures he can stuff her away in the closet after the election.

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Sorry MS not MI

By Gale

September 25, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Sunshine, much as I hate it, the republicans do look to be losing the race. I might be glad except that I think Obama is a poor choice. I agree that it is d*mning that none of the republicans are talking to the press in anything but prepared text. I really wish we used the British method of choosing the leader. The masses are far too easily swayed.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Gale, - Clearly, as one of these men will be the next president, he should have input into the implementation of the plan. The debates can be rescheduled.

is there a reason you think the candidates aren’t able to do both? I would hope that BOTH of them are able to multi-task well enough that 90 minutes of “what I want to do if I’m elected President” isn’t going to tank the economy or hold up the legislation. What will McSame do if he has to deal with two or more issues at a time? Presidents don’t usually have the luxery of putting one problem to the side until the next one gets solved, they have to work on them both…

I do support switching around the debate topics so that this one is on the economy and let the next one be on security though.

I found it telling that the democratic leaders didn’t want Obama back in DC.

actually, the Republican leaders weren’t all that enthused about having McCain in D.C. either.

“..until Obama agreed to come to Washington, GOP leaders were wary of their nominee’s unilateral decision. Boehner joined with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) in issuing a statement saying that “working in a bipartisan manner, we have made progress on an agreement” — without McCain.”

“The negotiating table has thus far been extremely small. The talks have been led by House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.); Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.); Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. and his staff. Senate banking committee Chairman Christopher J. Dodd (D-Conn.) and Sen. Richard C. Shelby (R-Ala.), have had a more limited role….”

“Negotiators questioned how either presidential candidate could now enter those talks, especially when a process that started badly on Tuesday showed signs of strong progress yesterday.”

“Obama and McCain coming back will not be particularly helpful,” said House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.). “It’s just going to bring the presidential campaign into the halls of Congress directly.”

By Gale

September 25, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

I find I do not care a lot how much it would cost to reschedule the debates. THe problem reminds me of deciding to go through with a wedding when you should not because it is all planned and the presents have been delivered.

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

The masses are far too easily swayed. I agree. I think that almost no one reads past the headlines, that most people don’t get to the meat in the story and most certainly don’t think for themselves. I understand your concerns about Mr. Obama but I think you might be pleasantly surprised if he does get into office, just a thought, but they all said that Clinton was too inexperienced too.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

Mara, clearly I didn’t read anough different articles today. What I have a problem with is the campaigns taking elected senators away from the people’s business for such a long time. I don’t think the people are being served by such a long campaign and I think it shows in my opinions of situations like this. I think a 90 minute debate could go forward. We have ample technology for either or both candidate to vidio-conference. Ah, but we would not have as much opportunity for the media event. I could live without the applause points. I read the transcripts of the primary debates, and I would have found the delays annoying.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Gale, I agree about the amount of time being spent on campaigning. It seems like this campaign has gone on waaaay too long. Probably a result of the front loaded primaries.

I also agree that these “debates” have devolved into more of a media event than actual give-and-take discussions…but they DO allow the electorate to view each candidate side by side which helps one compare and contrast their demeanor, their poise under pressure, and their vision for where America is headed. That’s something you don’t get just reading the transcripts. Usually the debates are just extended stump speeches so you don’t really get much new information but they say “a picture is worth a thousand words.”

Consider some of these previous debate moments…Bush Sr. looking at his watch (like he’s too important to waste time talking to the American people), Al Gore with his “sighs” (like he’s “the adult” and the American people the ignorant children he’s forced to educate), and Kerry with his fumbling and rambling (for it before he was against it?).

You just don’t get that kind of interaction, that kind of picture of their temperments, in a video-conference. You only see it when the candidates are forced to interact with each other.

By chuck

September 25, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

MARA

or maybe he thinks that those who know economic better than he does should be the ones crafting the legislation. Once the “experts” have crafted some possible fixes for the problems, then the legislators can come in, put their two cents in, and figure out how to implement those solutions.

I don’t think that I want bankers writing the laws that are going to lead to bailing out those bankers. As I recall, you were against having “experts” in the energy industry even CONTRIBUTING to the the discussions of energy policy. Why the change of heart Mara? Partisanship?

Not to mention the fact that those “experts” have already sent a proposal to congress. These proposals are in the committees of both houses and they (representatives and senators) are hammering out the details NOW. I would think that would be sufficient enough to warrant the “messiah’s” attention.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

I would like to think the economists, bankers and politicians would all have the greater good in mind with the specifics of this bail out. I don’t have a great deal of faith in that, however. The Treasury and the Fed think they can just conjure up more money and taxes will eventually pay for it. The politicians have shown they are only too eager to put off paying for anything just so they can continue to spend piles of our money. The unpleasent reality is we, as a country are very deep in debt. If my accounts looked the same, I would be making cuts in my budget, and certainly not promising to provide a college education and health care for my neighbors. The politicians need a grip on reality.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

sunshine, I would be pleasantly suprised if you weren’t a (DUMBASS)! BOHICA if that socialsist SOB is elected, we will be the whipping post of the world as he is without courage and wouldn’t do anything to make someone upset. His socialisst self will meet with all the leaaders that hate America and kiss up to them. I can listen to most everyone else on here, but your make assinine statement after assinine statement. So really Sunshine, go back to your Soap Opera’s and BON BONs and STFU!

By Wendy Weinbaum

September 25, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Tie the US House bill restoring DC gun rights to the Wall Street Bailout bill!Tie the US House bill restoring DC gun rights to the Wall Street Bailout bill!

By chuck

September 25, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

This JUST IN!

Lawmakers: Financial bailout agreement reached By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS

Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON — Warned of a possible financial panic, key Republicans and Democrats reported agreement in principle Thursday on a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry and said they would present it to the Bush administration in hopes of a vote within days.

Emerging from a two-hour negotiating session, Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the Banking Committee chairman said, “We are very confident that we can act expeditiously.”

(enlarge photo)Senate Banking Committee Chairman Sen. Chris Dodd., D-Conn., center, speaks during a news conference with, from left, Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., and Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., following a meeting on the market turmoil on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, Sept. 25, 2008. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh) “I now expect that we will indeed have a plan that can pass the House, pass the Senate (and) be signed by the president,” said Sen. Bob Bennett, R-Utah.

The bipartisan consensus on the general direction of the legislation was reported just hours before President Bush was to host presidential contenders Barack Obama and John McCain and congressional leaders at the White House for discussions on how to clear obstacles to the unpopular rescue plan.

Tony Fratto, the White House deputy press secretary said the announcement was “a good sign that progress is being made.”

“We’ll want to hear from (Treasury) Secretary (Henry) Paulson, and take a look at the details. We look forward to a good discussion at the meeting this afternoon,” he said.

On Wall Street, financial markets grew more upbeat as the Dow Jones industrial average at times rose more than 300 points.

Key lawmakers in Washington said at midday that few difficulties actually remained, although no details of their accord were immediately available.

“There really isn’t much of a deadlock to break,” said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.

But there were fresh signs of trouble in the House Republican Caucus. A group of GOP lawmakers circulated an alternative designed to attract private capital back into the credit markets with less government intrusion.

Under the proposal, the government would provide insurance to companies that agree to buy frozen assets, rather than purchase them directly as envisioned under the administration’s plan. The firms would have to pay insurance premiums to the Treasury Department for the coverage.

“The taxpayers haven’t done anything wrong,” said Rep Eric Cantor, R-Va., adding that rather than require them to bear the cost of the bailout, the alternative “pretty much puts the burden on Wall Street over time.”

Rep. John A. Boehner, R-Ohio, the minority leader, was huddling with McCain on the rescue. Earlier, asked whether the GOP presidential nominee could corral restive Republicans to support the plan, Boehner said, “Who knows?”

And Rep. Spencer Bachus of Alabama, the only House Republican in the bargaining meeting, did not directly say he agreed with the other lawmakers who emerged describing an imminent deal.

“There was progress today,” said Bachus, the senior Republican on the Financial Services panel.

Bush told the nation in a televised address Wednesday night that passage of the package his administration has proposed is urgently needed to calm the markets and restore confidence in the reeling financial system. His top spokeswoman, Dana Perino, had told reporters earlier Thursday that “significant progress” was being made.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said Bush’s agreement with Democrats on limiting pay for executives of bailed out financial institutions and giving taxpayers an equity stake in the companies cleared a significant hurdle.

The core of the plan envisions the government buying up sour assets of shaky financial firms in a bid to keep them from going under and to stave off a potentially severe recession.

It was not yet clear how lawmakers had resolved lingering differences over how to phase in the eye-popping cost — a measure demanded by Democrats and some Republicans who want stronger congressional control over the bailout — without spooking markets. A plan to let the government take an ownership stake in troubled companies as part of the rescue, rather than just buying bad debt, also was a topic of intense negotiation.

Bush acknowledged Wednesday night that the bailout would be a “tough vote” for lawmakers. But he said failing to approve it would risk dire consequences for the economy and most Americans.

“Without immediate action by Congress, America could slip into a financial panic, and a distressing scenario would unfold,” Bush said as he worked to resurrect the unpopular bailout package. “Our entire economy is in danger.”

Obama and McCain called for a bipartisan effort to deal with the crisis, little more than five weeks before national elections in which the economy has emerged as the dominant theme.

Presidential politics intruded, nonetheless, when McCain on Wednesday asked Obama to agree to delay their first debate, scheduled for Friday, to deal with the meltdown. Obama said the debate should go ahead.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Y’know, GTG, I would not even mind that Obama is a socialist if I felt that he was a pragmatic socialist. I think he thinks the publics coffers are limitless and we can spend our way out of anything. Maybe we should let his fundraisers come up with the $700B. I’m sure if he asked with that winning smile, they would open their checkbooks again.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

I don’t think that I want bankers writing the laws that are going to lead to bailing out those bankers. As I recall, you were against having “experts” in the energy industry even CONTRIBUTING to the the discussions of energy policy.

sigh apples and oranges.

firstly, “economist” and “banker” are not the same thing. There are a lot of people who AREN’T in the banking industry that know a lot about the economy. There are accountants, marketers, business administrators, etc. etc. etc. Suggestions for the legislation came from the Department of Treasury, the SEC, The Federal Reserve, as well as elected officials. Though the discussions themselves were closed to the press, the process was open and transparent, the way policy SHOULD be crafted.

second, the creation of our energy policy was like having the bankers ( and only the bankers) craft banking legislation. Cheney’s energy taskforce included no “experts” in any field except petroleum. Where were the people from the nuclear energy commission, the alternative energy groups, the environmentalist and scientists? Where was the bipartisan group of elected officials from the Department of Energy, from the Congressional Energy Committees?

That’s right…they weren’t invited. Cheney and his cronies met behind closed doors, their identities shrouded. But for the existance of the FOIA we would never even have known when the meetings were held or who probably attended.

You see the difference? Open, inclusive discussion as opposed to back-room secrecy. It was never an issue about the expertise of the advisors, just their narrowness of vision and their conflict of interest.

These proposals are in the committees of both houses and they (representatives and senators) are hammering out the details NOW

and both candidates are in Washington…NOW.

By Gale

September 25, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

Wendy, Addons like that are the demise of many a fine bill. If they start trying to tack on special interest legislation, we may as well start hoping the free market really works because the bill will never make it to a vote.

By Archie

September 25, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Why is it a bad thing that he’s waiting for the economists to finish their preliminary work before he comes charging in? Isn’t it better that he doesn’t pretend to know everything and is willing to see what the professionals come up with before he starts running his mouth about what we need to do? Yes, these statements are so true Mara.

You know Mara you are one of the absolute best posters on the entire internet. I visit other political and sports blogs and you seem to say things that make sense and you say them in a way that makes sense. I believe you are who you say you are and I don’t necessarily believe that about everyone else. We may not always agree but it is so refreshing to read something from a person that’s not prejudiced,and the posts make sense. I don’t like to post too much anymore because the blog has degenerated and it’s that way on a lot of blogs. The thing is you and I, Mara, have a slightly different political view, yet I feel better reading your posts than I do other supposedly democrat-type people.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Gale, the add-ons are also the stuff of negative campaigns. How many times have we seen a commercial like ‘Candidate “X” voted AGAINST funding to keep our troops safe!’ when in fact, Candidate X voted against a badly written regulatory bill that had the troop funding added on as a rider. It isn’t exactly the TRUTH, but it isn’t a lie either.

That’s why I never believe political advertisements until I’ve had a chance to fact-check ‘em.

By Mara

September 25, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

on a lighter note, from the AP…

SOUTH CHARLESTON, W.Va. - A man has been charged with battery on a police officer for allegedly passing gas and fanning it toward a patrolman.

Jose A. Cruz, 34, of Clarksburg, W. Va., was pulled over early Tuesday for driving without headlights, police said. According to the criminal complaint, Cruz smelled of alcohol, had slurred speech and failed three field sobriety tests before he was handcuffed and taken to a police station for a breathalyzer test.

As Patrolman T.E. Parsons prepared the machine, Cruz scooted his chair toward Parsons, lifted his leg and “passed gas loudly,” the complaint said.

Cruz, according to complaint, then fanned the gas toward the officer.

“The gas was very odorous and created contact of an insulting or provoking nature with Patrolman Parsons,” the complaint alleged.

LOL! And we used to mock Whiley for calling indecent exposure “assault”.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Nothing pragmatic about the socialism that NoBama will usher in on us. Tax the rich, oh, not so many rich anymore, tax the wealthy, oh, not so many of them, tax, tax, tax. 60-70% of what you earn will go these Womb to Tombers….watch and see…

By Gale

September 25, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Mara, quite right about the addons fueling negative ads. We know they are often put there as bill killers. Our legislators ought to be ashamed that they cannot just work together to solve problems.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

NEWSFLASH! CLAY is Gay! Rosie Fat’donnel says that’s good. I so hate her, she reminds me of Sunshine! Who didn’t know that? Who cares if Clay is gay?

By GTG

September 25, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Chuck, how bout linking us or at least editin a bit that’s long and borin

By GTG

September 25, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Chuck, how bout linking us or at least editin a bit that’s long and borin

By Mara

September 25, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

why thank you, Archie! that’s maybe one of the nicest things anyone has ever said about me. I might blush…

By Gale

September 25, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

GTG, who didn’t already know Clay is gay.

By GTG

September 25, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

That’s what I am saying! Big Headline on Yahoo and he’s on the cover of People. Wasn’t really a news flash, it’s his business anyhoo…

By GTG

September 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

That’s what I am saying! Big Headline on Yahoo and he’s on the cover of People. Wasn’t really a news flash, it’s his business anyhoo…

By Gandalf, the Rainbow Warrior

September 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

That’s what I am saying! Big Headline on Yahoo and he’s on the cover of People. Wasn’t really a news flash, it’s his business anyhoo…

By Gandalf, the Rainbow Warrior

September 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

That’s what I am saying! Big Headline on Yahoo and he’s on the cover of People. Wasn’t really a news flash, it’s his business anyhoo…

By Gandalf, the Rainbow Warrior

September 25, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Wow, since he’s gay and is letting the world know it, I might turn gay too? WTF? Go hang with Rosie, Hey, that’s mean! I don’t think Clay would want to hang with her. She is such a disgusting human being. So go gay people, down with ROSIE the Pig with the stupid hate filled mouth!

By Gale

September 25, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

GTG, back on the meds. One post is adequate for each message. Slow down, dude.

By Bruno

September 25, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Warned of a possible financial panic, key Republicans and Democrats reported agreement in principle Thursday on a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry and said they would present it to the Bush administration in hopes of a vote within days.

Howdy gang. The bad news regarding the bailout is that the initial $700,000,000,000 is only the beginning. Mark my words, it will end up costing the taxpayers in the trillions before all is said and done. It’s not only the large companies in the news that have been hurt by the credit bubble bursting; every S & L across the nation is holding a bunch of worthless paper loans right now. The FDIC is going to have to step in and keep all of them solvent to protect the depositors. In a nutshell, we’re F’d right now.

By Sunshine

September 25, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

DID YOU HEAR?!?! Mrs. Palin took four questions from the press today! Well she refused to answer one of them so she took 3 whole questions from the press! They were about going to war and terrorism, haven’t the Republicans beaten that horse to death?

Here they are folks! The sky’s have parted and lipstick wearing animals has sprouted wings! (politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/25/palin-takes-questions-from-press-corps-for-first-time/)

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 26, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Sunshine, Please STFU! I hope your keyboard locks up. Terrorism is something I worry about. You should too.

By Gale

September 26, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Quote from an interesting book review in the Wash Post today. It seems pertinent to the topic, so here it is.
“When a district has too few classroom teachers,” Ouchi writes in his chapter, “student loads per teacher rise to the point where teachers can no longer know their students well enough to establish a bond of trust with them. Without this trust, a teacher can neither establish an orderly classroom nor push a student to do his or her best, and the teacher’s job often becomes frustrating and constantly stressful.”

The article is about student load in middle and high school where teachers are specialized and have so many classes that they don’t get to know the students and cannot form a trust bond with them. The author contends this bond is necessary for getting the best from students.
(http://www.wash ingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/26/AR200809 2600801.html?hp id=news-col-blogs) as usual, remove the blanks.

By Gandalf, the Grey

September 26, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

Excellent point Gale, thanks for the concise report!

By Gale

September 26, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this

Gandalf, Your 13 year old is in middle school, right? How many classes do his teachers cover? I remember scoffing as an 8th grade science teacher complained to me about adding another class. It is the same class. What is the big deal? I guess it was a big deal.

By chuck

September 26, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Gale, In Georgia the maximum class size for middle school has been reduced to 28 students per class in academic classes. That is not AVERAGE class size but actual warm bodies in seats. Having taught 8th grade for nearly 20 years I can tell you that when I started out, the max. class size was 35. 28 is a HUGE difference, but it is still not the OPTIMAL class size for middle schools. Especially when school districts can ask for “temporary” waivers. The legislature had promised to reduce class sizes to 25 until they realized how much it was going to cost.

What that means from a practical stand point is that I can teach a maximum of 140 students each day. That is a huge number of kids. A couple of years ago I taught 158 students on a block schedule where we saw our kids every other day in 4 classes per day. Under those conditions it is very difficult to develop that relationship with ALL of the students. When you throw in all the paperwork that goes along with “accountability”, you have little time to plan and even less to get to know the kids.

By chuck

September 26, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

If anybody is actually out there today, Have a great weekend!!

McCain and Palin ‘08

By Tiffany

September 30, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

The NCLB Act forgets one critical thing: the bell curve. Most kids are average (thus the term). Some are gifted. Some are LD. The testing forget that and require all kids to perform at the same ability. There are so many tests to prepare the class for, the smarter kids sit bored or start acting up while the teacher gets the rest of the class to understand the concept, then the majority of the class has to continue to wait for the slower students to catch up. It’s not fair to give everyone else extra work to keep them busy. It’s not fair to give them fun activities while the teacher works with the ones who are behind. This leads to busy work and bitter kids. The ones having difficulty understand that, and are giving up on education by 4th or 5th grade. The parents are too busy & don’t do as much as the kids need to keep them on track. The teachers don’t have the freedom to discipline kids in the classroom, and the office is too overwhelmed to help. To top it off, reading coaches get to come into classrooms to tell teachers that they’re not on the mandated page for that day, because the teacher slowed down to make sure no child was left behind. There are so many mandates, so many tests, so many requirements of teachers. There’s no time for experiments, projects, and hands-on learning. The accountability is put solely on the teachers, not on the students. If the child performs poorly because he wanted to play Wii instead of doing homework, nothing happens to him. But the teacher could lose her job. How is that fair to the teacher?