AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > June > 13 > Entry
Is red-state / blue-state America just a mirage?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Some say a speech ignited Barack Obama’s meteoric rise in politics. Yet it wasn’t his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention that sealed the deal. It was one line from that speech: “There is not a liberal America and a conservative America—there is the United States of America.”
Obama went on to describe a society where blue staters pray and red staters value their civil liberties, images that resonate with many who feel that “red” and “blue” fail to summarize our political and cultural leanings. They don’t even sum up our geography; only 12 states had greater than a 60/40 split in the last presidential election.
Nonetheless, trumped-up stereotypes march on, giving us the old razzle-dazzle. “Is America ready for an elitist, arugula-eating president?,” elitist, arugula-eating pundits demand. “Is McCain another George Bush?” some ask, referring to a candidate who actually toyed with leaving the Republican party a few short years ago.
I don’t blame anyone for angle-hunting. “Two Americas” of any sort makes for better theater than one where the vast majority of us agree on our problems: an economy on the skids, insufficient health care and education systems, a war urgently in need of resolution. Even on issues where we’re supposedly irrevocably divided—say, abortion—we’re really not. Recent ABC/Washington Post and Gallup polls word their questions differently, yet come up with a similar conclusion: in both, exactly 82 percent of Americans feel that abortion should be legal in some circumstances. It’s not a number that provides solutions, but it sure points to common ground.
Make no mistake: we have two very different choices this fall in Barack Obama and John McCain. So things will get heated; attack ads will try to sell ugly lies, commentators will seize upon every unfortunate remark as though not doing so aids and abets terrorism.
Yet bear in mind that although technology allows networks to track the election in real time, switching color combinations with a wave of the hand, opinion makers can’t make people out to be caricatures if they insist on being real. Bigwigs and bloggers can stir things up with a red-state/blue-state reality show, but it’s American voters, colorful and complex, who will ultimately script the ending.
Rebuttal
I appreciate Andy waving the purple flag and declaring one nation under arugula, but I beg to differ. I wish we weren’t so divided - but wishing doesn’t make it so.
As I travel, the red-blue divide is stark and obvious. In red states, for example, most people regularly go to church — or feel like they have to explain why they don’t. In blue states, you have to explain why you do. Red states have a much higher rate of marriage; blue states a much higher rate of living together. Although, of course, blue states are also redefining marriage to include homosexuals — something most red state residents strongly oppose.
I actually saw this cultural divide when I watched one of my books become an unexpected water-cooler bestseller a few years ago. The buzz was largely spreading from church-goers outwards, and one major secular bookstore chain showed me the number of copies sold each week in each region. It went something like this: Southeast Region A: 632 copies. Southeast Region B: 450. Midwest Region C: 578. And so on. I had to laugh when I saw New England: 8. The most populous area sold eight copies that week. Why? That big cultural difference: the majority of people in New England simply don’t go to church, and thus had never heard the church-based word-of-mouth.
In politics, the red-blue divide is similar to 2004. A Gallup survey shows that McCain leads Obama by 19 points with people who attend church weekly and by 13 points with married couples. In the secular northeast, Obama polls ahead of McCain by 10 points.
Andy believes we share the same priorities, but issues like healthcare and Iraq are what liberals complain about at parties, not conservatives. According to several Rasmussen polls, 69 percent of Republicans think we’re winning the war on terror — but just 23 percent of Democrats do. And Republicans who see the Iraq surge working are perplexed by Obama’s rhetoric that “we must end this war!” To them, Supreme Court appointments are far more important.
We can’t ignore the unfortunate blue-red cultural divide. And I believe it is made far worse by politicians who proclaim “one America” but show obvious derision for red-state values.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Copyleft
June 13, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this
So for Shaunti, the real measure of America’s divisions is all about who goes to church more.
What a shame that evangelicals are now turning to environmental responsibility, care for the poor, affordable healthcare, and other “liberal” causes.
And I note that she brags about the higher marriage rate in “red” states—but is conspicuously silent about the higher DIVORCE rate there too.
By Koz
June 13, 2008 8:36 AM | Link to this
Bravo Shaunti, well written
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 8:36 AM | Link to this
Copyleft -
you also forgot about the higher rate of out-of-wedlock births, as well.
(she also neglects to mention that the NorthEast is still predominantly Catholic - not really her “core audience” for sermons about home-schooling)
By JustaJew
June 13, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this
she also neglects to mention that the NorthEast is still predominantly Catholic - not really her “core audience” for sermons about home-schooling
Right on USinUK. I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps the people in the Northeast are not the bible-thumping, G-dfearing Southern Baptists that Shaunti likes to portray as “real church-goin folk.” Pu-lease, what THOSE folks really know about G-d wouldn’t fill a thimble.
By Stan
June 13, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
Who would have ever thought that in a state that has more married couples, there would also be more divorces!?!
There is a middle road to be found, unfortunatly our current grop of pols don’t seem to have a clue where it is. I, for example support gay marriage, am pro choice (but am against abortion). I don’t want government healthcare to be in play at all. I support gun owners rights and would like to see most gun laws abolished. I am a fiscal conservative and it shows in my personal life, I have NO debt. I don’t care if you go to church or not, and ask the same of you. I support environmental efforts but don’t think to much about ‘Global warming’.
I’m neither red or blue. I prefer to think of myself as American.
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Stan -
Please, learn the difference between the number of divorces and the divorce RATE. One is an absolute number (and is not what we’re talking about) the other is a percentage.
If you’re still confused, look up percentage.
By Dex
June 13, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
Copyleft the point Shaunti was making is that we live in at least two different Americas ie left right, black white, hawk dove, etc etc…and we vote accordinly. Historical data indicates that these major difference can be tracked by red and blue states since for the MOST part Republician and Demorcatic parties are on different sides of social and economic issues. Conservatives do not believe that government should be Robbing Hood (spelled correctly) taking ones earnings to give to those who cannot survive without government help. Liberals on the other hand have no problem taking money from those that have been sucessful in order to fund their ideal world. No one is capable of bringing us together on these issues and to even infer that that is a possibility is ludicrous. Now matter which candidates wins the election the great divide will still be in place and I’m betting the divide will be along blue state red state lines.
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
JustaJew -
first of all … NO “Just” … Even though I’m JustaShiksa, I used to work with some fantastic MoTs when I lived in DC - loved them dearly!! :-) (not to mention, I still have a thing for the Ashkenizi look … woof!)
Secondly, I can’t tell you how offended I was by: the majority of people in New England simply don’t go to church, and thus had never heard the church-based word-of-mouth.
she’s obviously never been in CT or MA on a Sunday morning and seen catholic mass at SRO capacity. And the Greek Orthodox churches up there were also swamped every weekend.
but, otherwise, no, there are no churchgoing folk up north.
criminey.
By Jeff
June 13, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
Out of curiousity:
Shaunti, which book was that? I own most all of them (well, I don’t have the FYWO/FYMO because I gave those away, but I’ve read all of them!)
Lights of 10th Street was really a look at intra-Church affairs, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it sold in more heavily-church going areas. (Though the plot also points out several things that the secular world needs to see as well.)
Veritas Conflict was - again - more of a wake up call to the Church about ideological diversity. Though again, many points were brought out that the secular world needs to here as well.
Interestingly enough, it was Veritas that began my own transformation from a neo-con to a Libertarian.
By AH
June 13, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
I think the debate here is whither or not we are as divided politically in the country as the media would make us think. I’d have to say even through there is a lot of common ground on issues how to solve those issues are what actually divides us.
I’m afraid I have to agree with Mrs. Feldhahn on this issue. Even though everyone agrees there needs to be a solution no one whats to accept the other sides input on that solution. This comes from both sides to some but mostly from the left.
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this
ashkenAzi … good grief, my spelling …
By Damn Yankee
June 13, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
To say that “the majority of people in the Northeast don’t go to church and the ones that do have to justify themselves” is one of the most ignorant statements I have read since I have been living in the South. What facts do you use to back up your claim? There are probably very simple explanations for why your book sold as many copies as it did, and where those copies were sold, but after reading your article it’s obvious that simple logic would go right over your head. It is people like you and statements like that keeping this country separated.
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
AH -
This comes from both sides to some but mostly from the left.
Well, when many of the “solutions” mean the loss of liberty or the infliction of your set of beliefs on me/my family, you’re right. We on the left are resistent to it.
In fact, we leave heel marks.
I don’t want you to inject your particular beliefs into my relationship with my doctor/pharmacist, I don’t want children taught your particular brand of religion at a public school and I most definitely don’t want you to interpret science and sex ed through your narrow lense of religiosity.
So, no, we don’t accept the right’s “solutions” (which, especially in the case of sex ed, has actually caused the pregnancy rate to rise).
By Behind Enemy Lines
June 13, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
Wow, what a stunning development. A “right-leaning columnist” who gets it and a “left-leaning columnist” who doesn’t seem to get it at all.
In other shocking news, water is wet.
By Stan
June 13, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
usinuk…stop trolling, you’re doing it wrong
lolz
By Jen
June 13, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Shaunti, your books are not a poll. First off, you write Christian fiction. That’s a niche market. There are MANY Christians who will never read Christian fiction because MOST of it is very poorly written and just terrible fiction - a lecture wrapped in thin story. So, even if yours is on par with Harlen Coben you’re not going to appeal to MOST fiction readers. Second, MOST Christian fiction is evangelical fiction. As mentioned before, Catholics are often bemused and amused by evangelicanism (speaking as a former Catholic…even we called you guys the Fundies). And Catholics make up over 30% of all Christians in this country. It is the single largest denomination of Christianity. The Southern Baptists are the next largest single denomination…and they’re 1/4 the size of the Catholic faith in this country.
So…using your books as a barometer of faith….poor metric.
And as far as people discussing their faith. Catholics are not evangelical. Faith is a private and personal thing. They don’t broadcast it, as a whole. So, you can’t go into predominantly Catholic areas like New England or LOUISIANA and decide if it’s conservative or liberal based on the amount of discussion of God and faith.
Sheesh.
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this
Stan …
once you get the concept of “percentage”, we’ll get into standard deviation and margin of error … but not until you’re ready …
By lyrazel
June 13, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
That big cultural difference: the majority of people in New England simply don’t go to church, and thus had never heard the church-based word-of-mouth
Wow! Now that is stupid to say because your book does not sell in an area.
My very religious family would beg to differ—as would ME, NH, VT, MA, NY, RI, CT.
By Jen
June 13, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
How well did your book sell in Louisiana, Shaunti? Can you answer that? Since we’re using such flimsy evidence anyway I can play.
Louisiana is a southern state that is red. How many of your books sold there?
By Dan
June 13, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
When we start to think of America as: “One nation, under God” it makes people nervous. Some people are unnerved by the mention of a diety, others see cultural, geographic and demographic differences as reason enough to disagree that we are “One Nation”.
What Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain propose with differing ideologies is that we are One Nation. It’s the differing ideologies that determine the vision for the future of this One Nation.
Irregardless of whose vision you agree with, when the towers fell, when we celebrated the bicentennial of this nation, as we are at war…we are “One Nation, under God, indivisible with Freedom and Justice for all”.
It is my opinion that arguments that divide us along artificial and cultural lines are more distraction than useful. We have serious problems in this country, that require serious leadership, so disagree with a policy position, but one cannot argue that we are all Americans.
By Archie
June 13, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
I agree with a good bit of Shanti’s commentary unfortunately and I do think there is blue state red state divide. Some people are very honest about their objections to democrats but within the democratic party there are a number of people that are not honest about their views. There is a difference in opinion between liberals and conservatives and I think common ground could be reached if you get rid of the money-making people such as Hannity,Limbaugh,Coulter,Franken and others that earn a living exploiting the divide. Basically if you get the pundits to go home for awhile you might find some common ground but right now some irrational thoughts are so ingrained that people act against their interests.
By kimberly
June 13, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
I agree with Dan (9:54).
But having been labeled a “lefty” by the “righties,” I’d have to say the “righties” are the ones who WANT division. Not only did I never ask for the label, I don’t wear it on my lapel. I think anyone who thinks they have all the answers is a fool, and smart people are willing to listen to others and look at the big picture before taking sides on an issue.
But as soon as I say I think government should be accountable to us (no secret energy policy meetings or free-for-all to defense contractors!) and should regulate corporations — whose actions affect hundreds to millions of people, the environment, and the economy — and let individuals make their own choices as long as those choices don’t infringe on the rights of others, the “righties” pull out their label maker gun and start slapping me with all manner of assumptions, up to and including the absurd ideas that I’m somehow attacking their religion, waging a war on families, not supporting the troops, advocating murder, encouraging children to have sex, and desiring to personally snatch their hard-earned wages from their pockets and deliver them, gift-wrapped, to some lazy SOB who refuses to work.
There is no reasoning with people who make baseless assumptions and refuse to listen, so yes, America is divided because Americans WANT to be divided. Y’all made your choice; it’s yours to make. I’m not holding my breath that you “righties” will ever put the good of this country before your own desire to be “right,” but I’d appreciate it if you’d stop telling lies about people like me. (For you religions folks, isn’t bearing false witness a sin?) Thanks.
By Jeff
June 13, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Jen:
I’m an avid reader (on track right now to read more than 53 books this year, all roughly 400+ pages). I’ve read everything from Dumas and Chaucer to King and Sparks.
I also have a decent percentage of my personal library devoted to Christian works, and most of that is Christian Fiction.
Granted, Shaunti’s own works can come across slighly heavy-handed, but Lights in particular focused on a compelling story line first and foremost. (Well, two interweaving storylines really. One in which a small town girl gets involved in ATL’s seedy sex industry underbelly, and the other in which a normal man at a local megachurch deals with his sexual addiction.) The preaching there was actually more of a call to both the ‘compassion’ and ‘legalist’ movements within the church that NEITHER is completely appropriate and that both need to work TOGETHER.
But then you get also into other Christian Fiction writers.
Dee Henderson writes love stories as poetic as anything Sparks can put out, and she manages to throw in a good adventure/mystery tale on top of it.
ATL’s own Randy Singer puts out legal thrillers the likes of which John Grisham only WISHES he could write.
GA’s own Robert Whitlow puts out legal stories - while not exactly ‘thrillers’ - that also give Grisham a run for his money.
Bill Myers’ tales will make any Christian examine their lives. Eli is particularly moving (basic storyline: What if Christ had been born in 1969 Santa Monica?), and the crucifiction scene in it is one that I will ALWAYS remember - even more so than that in Gibson’s The Passion.
Randy Ingermanson has a time-travel trilogy out where he puts 3 people - two atheists and a Messianic Jew - on a one way trip to AD 60 Jerusalem. I’ve YET to read a book from ANYONE else who describes ancient scenes with NEAR the realism he pulls off.
ATL’s own Creston Mapes writes a story of murder and intrigue that links a homeless man in Las Vegas to a megachurch in Atlanta.
And those are just a FEW of the authors I’ve enjoyed in the Christian Fiction world.
Compare this to in the non-Christian Fiction world, my reading has included Anne Rice, Stephen King, Douglas Preston, Lincoln Child, Dale Brown, Tom Clancy, Lee Child, Kyle Mills, and several others. (Matter of fact, I’m reading Dale Brown’s latest paperback Strike Force right now!), and I’d say that I think I know what I’m talking about when it comes to fiction!
By Connie
June 13, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
Shaunti says the blue states do not attend church as much as the red states. That is because this “blue” person who lives in a red state doesn’t like the hypocrisy shown by those “right wingers”. The homophobic church goers say homosexuality is an abomination. Did God say pre-marital sex, adultrey and divorce committed by heterosexuals is a lesser sin than being gay??
By Jeff
June 13, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Kimberley:
You are correct in that government SHOULD be transparent. It IS accountable, via the election box.
As far as corporations go: It is NOT the government’s job to regulate private contracts, and that goes for individuals AS WELL AS corporations. If Verizon and Alltel agree to a deal for one to buy the other (as has already been done), the government should NOT have a say in this. Same thing with marraige. The government has NO RIGHT to regulate the private lives of Americans, and religions have the right to say whether they will acknowledge certain unions or not. (For example, the Catholic church TO THIS DAY refuses to acknowledge marraiges between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, and that is perfectly fine! Just means that for me, personally, I’ll never consider marrying a Catholic! -Of course, I’m happily married now anyway, but you get the point!)
Now, to those who are saying we are ‘One Nation’ and only the Dems and Republicans are trying to say otherwise:
Actually, we are two nations. You are correct in saying that the Dems and Republicans are one and the same, but there are other parties out there who are completely different. There DO exist people out there who believe in LIBERTY. First, Last, and Only.
The problem with the majority of Americans is that they think that there will be any real change when electing a DemoCan. There will not be. The flavor may change, but orange flavored crap vs apple flavored crap means that you are still eating crap.
The only solution, then, is to vote for a so-called ‘third’ party. In my own case, I believe most strongly in the Libertarians, and therefore I am a member of that party and will vote for its candidates. If you happen to believe more strongly in the Green, Constitutional, or any other so-called ‘third’ party, I urge you to work for them. And again here, many of us stand united at least as far as defeating the DemoCan machine and reclaiming America for Americans.
By Archie
June 13, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
There is no reasoning with people who make baseless assumptions and refuse to listen, so yes, America is divided because Americans WANT to be divided This is a true statement Kimberly. Kimberly I talked to a lady about Obama and she was wrong about his healthcare plan and when I told her it’s all on his website and has been there she said he changed rather than just acknowledging that she was wrong. This lady is a democrat who point-blank told me she can’t stand Bush but she says she’s concerned about Obama’s experience. Of course I don’t believe her and a big part of the divide is the superiority complex that runs through so much of America. Studies have shown the majority of folk want universal healthcare and that sounds like the common ground that Andrea is talking about but because that complex folk will vote against a candidate that will actually do what they want.
By Kim
June 13, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping thumpers? Well? Can you guess? It’s Massachusetts, the center of the gay marriage universe. How about this: 9 of the 10 lowest divorce rates are blue states, and most are in the Northeast. And where are the highest divorce rates? 10 of the top 10 are red-we’re-so-moral states. But two guys making out is going to ruin marriage for you? Yeah? Seems like you’re ruining it pretty well on your own. Oh, but that’s ok because you go to church, right? I mean you do, right? Cause we get to hear about it every year at election time. Yes, we’re fascinated by how you get up every Sunday morning and sing, and then you’re towers of moral superiority. Yeah, that’s a workable formula. Maybe blue staters don’t talk about religion as much as you because we’re not so busy sinning, hmmm? Ever think of that, you self-righteous thumpers? No, you’re too busy erecting giant stone tablets of the Ten Commandments in buildings paid for by the Liberal Elite. And who has the highest murder rates in the nation? It ain’t us in the blue states.
By AH
June 13, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
So it would appear that the Rebuttal is the winner on this blog. The “us vs them-blame” arguments far out number any “come together and work on problem” comments.
Sorry no purple states in this country. Maybe if we could add a few more colors to the political rainbow this would change.
Federalist in 2012
By Julie
June 13, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
From my personal experience traveling the U.S. and talking to family members flung far and wide in this country, I definitely think there are more red and blue “areas” in states than whole states being one or another. Perhaps some sparsely populated places like Wyoming or Montana would really skew red, but different areas in states definitely have different vibes. Atlanta is blue -like it or not, we are! My gay family members who live right outside San Francisco in Marin County have been worried their daughter will experience some flack when she starts school because she has two mommies. I was SHOCKED to hear that right across the bay, it’s a lot straighter and more conservative (in weird ways) than here in Atlanta. They were equally as shocked when I told them how many gay couples and families lived right in my neighborhood -how we had gay parents at preschool and in our parents org., etc., and no one thought twice about it. I think misconceptions like this exist all over the country. Individuals are very liberal and/or conservative on different policies. My father is extremely conservative fiscally, but is all for gay rights and abortion rights. I know a number of pro-lifers who are all for more tax money going to help the homeless and poor -so it’s not a cut and dried dividing line anywhere. And Shaunti -really, to say no one in New England goes to church is quite a ridiculous statement!
By Fred
June 13, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
I grew up in New England. We went to church. I guess we just didn’t stand around afterward gossiping and yacking about the latest books. No time to waste, We had Arugula to pick. Seriously, it’s a totally different culture. Not better or worse, just different. For instance, up north, people don’t tend to strike up conversations with strangers in stores. That’s one of the things I find endearing about the South.
By AGF
June 13, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Alright Jeff - fess up. You’re 2D - right? If you aren’t, welcome aboard.
Kim - please tell me you’re joking with the assertion that only the liberal elite pay taxes for federal, state, and local government buildings.
By Kim
June 13, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
Nine of the ten states that get the most federal dollars and pay the least… can you guess? Go on, guess. That’s right, they’re red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It’s too easy, they’re blue states.
By AH
June 13, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
Kim your a jerk. I actually spend a few minutes to pull up the FBI stats and check on murder rates and you gave bad data. I have put the states into the correct ranking up to #15. You can decide what color the state is if you like but clearly the top 10 are not all red states. Also I have heard your other claim about welfare states and federal dollars per state, believe me that is also flat out wrong. When you really add up DOT, HUD, EPA, earmarks, etc… funds the differences are roughly the same per capital.
2006 Stats. 1. Dist. of Columbia 2. Puerto Rico 3. Louisiana 4. Maryland 5. Nevada 6. South Carolina 7. Alabama 8. Mississippi 9. Arizona 10. Arkansas 11. Michigan 12. Tenn 13. New Mexico 14. California 15. Georgia
By Mara
June 13, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
Archie - what is it with the “democrats are liars” you’ve been pushing lately? That lady told you she had concerns about Obama’s lack of experience and you dismiss her as a liar and imply that it must be Obama’s skin color that bothers her. I don’t know one way or the other, but it’s not impossible that she does worry about the experience factor. After all, he is relatively inexperienced in politics (which could be seen as kind of a plus) so I don’t know why you’d imply that anyone (well, any ‘democrat’) who voices concern about it is an obvious liar.
And yesterday you stated “I don’t understand why democrats can’t be honest.” as if being a Democrat precludes one from having real beliefs or real concerns that may be contrary to the party platform or the party candidate.
Since my candidate isn’t in the running anymore, I’ll probably end up voting for Obama, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have any honest concerns about him.
By Jack
June 13, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
There should be a box marked “none of the above” on this election’s ballot. Washington is indeed broke and nothing short of revolution will fix it. Is is darkest before the dawn. God help us all.
and…Happy Friday.
By Gandalf, the Grey
June 13, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
EXPAT: Your pretty fiesty today. Get up on the wrong side of the pond this morning? :-)
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
GtG (and Stan)
sorry for the p** … I was in the middle of an economic report that just would. NOT. END!!! (who knew there were that many releases this week?)
so, yes, my apologies for being a complete cranky-pants.
and everyone have a good weekend! :-)
By RF
June 13, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
That big cultural difference: the majority of people in New England simply don’t go to church, and thus had never heard the church-based word-of-mouth
ROFL- I would expect such simplistic narrow views from Shaunti. The most likely explanation is that outside of the dear old South, she just isn’t important enough to read.
Archie- My bad if It seemed I was arguing with you or misreading your post yesterday. I can only offer my apologies if you received my post in any but a truly discursive, respectful manner. I’m not sure why it seemed defensive, but one can’t control how a post is received. My intent was not defensive, I assure you. I was simply trying to point out (and apparently didn’t do a good job of it) that I don’t think race is a negative issue for any significant number of democrats, IN MY OPINION. If we wish to, we can see it that way, and if you do, then why not just ask people if that’s a problem? The “some” you referred to, IN MY OPINION, may be a smaller number than you think. You seem pretty sensitive on this issue and I was just trying to put a positive spin on it, that’s all. No defensiveness or arguing intended.
What I wonder is this. What percentage of democrats see race as a significant factor? I am asking in a completely non-aggressive way, neither offensively or defensively. Please note that I do accept it exists in a small number of ignorant people. I am curious as to whether you think that number may be large enough by November to affect the election. As a huge supporter of Obama and a political moderate, I hope not. I truly believe that his merits and his campaign will win over many who are not currently his supporters by then.
The following may be read as defensive, but please do not take it personally or read any vehemence into it. I’m responding to your request for an admission of a “small mistake” of not reading the AJC or CNN
If it seems I have not read the AJC or CNN, I read/view them regularly and do not accept all I read in them, or any other media source, as reliable. Information is often skewed by the opinion of the one gathering or reporting it. I watch and read CNN daily and prefer their general reporting over other cable sources, but at times I see the way even they can exaggerate some of what they report. I recently watched a discussion, as I recall on PBS, of how cable news channels have tried to exploit possible controversies in this campaign and that much of the “media bias” during the campaign has most often been the function of cable news channels known for their overtly slanted views. I agree with that. They’ll take even the hint of an issue and try to stir controversy (I’m thinking of Fox News as a prime example). Therefore, I do not take much of what I see on cable news channels or read in the AJC as authoritative and final.
Happy Friday, all!!
By Kim
June 13, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
AH: It’s YOU’RE a jerk. You’re = you are a jerk. Your = you don’t know your eye from your elbow. Also, Puerto Rico & DC - not states. That leaves: Louisiana RED Nevada RED South Carolina RED Alabama RED Mississippi RED Arizona RED Arkansas RED Tenn RED New Mexico RED Georgia RED My data are dated, admittedly. They’re from this great site from 2000 called www.fthesouth.com (but you have to spell out the f word).
By USinUK
June 13, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
okay, the word the AJC edited rhymes with “missy-ness” … but starts with a P
By Joke Friday
June 13, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
The George W. Bush Presidential Library is now in the planning stages. The Library will include:
— The Hurricane Katrina Room ,which is still under construction. — The Alberto Gonzales Room, where you won’t be able to remember anything. — The Texas Air National Guard Room, where you don’t even have to show up. — The Walter Reed Hospital Room, where they don’t let you in. — The Guantanamo Bay Room, where they don’t let you out. — The Weapons of Mass Destruction Room, which no one has been able to find. — The National Debt Room which is huge and has no ceiling. — The ‘Tax Cut’ Room with entry only to the wealthy. — The ‘Economy Room’ which is in the toilet. — The Iraq War Room. After you complete your first tour, they make you to go back for a second, third, fourth, and sometimes fifth tour. — The Dick Cheney Room, in the famous undisclosed location, complete with shotgun gallery. — The Environmental Conservation Room, still empty. — The Supremes Gift Shop, where you can buy an election. — The Airport Men’s Room, where you can meet some of your favorite Republican Senators. — The ‘Decider Room’ complete with dart board, magic 8-ball, Ouija board, dice, coins, and straws.
To be fair, the President has done some good things, and so the museum will have a microscope to help you locate them. When asked, President Bush said that he didn’t care so much about the individual exhibits as long as his museum was better than his father’s.
By JokesOn
June 13, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Well, my respect for McCain just went from low to negative:
John McCain said Friday that the Supreme Court ruling on Guantanamo Bay detainees is “one of the worst decisions in the history of this country.”
(http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/13/mccain-guantanamo-ruling-one-of-the-worst-decisions-in-history/)
By NetBanker
June 13, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Hey kids! It’s been a long time since I’ve had time to post or even to read along. apparently I’m catching next week’s topic early because the only posts are from today…which made the catching up sooo much easier.
Dan…very good points. One small thing though that I learned from a co-worker about 18 years ago that has always stuck in my head to share with you. Irregardless isn’t a word. It’s always regardless.
Kimberly…can’t argue there.
Jeff…I completely agree about 3rd parties. Americans need to get the message out that when we want change we want REAL change and not just another candidate from the currently corrupted parties. If Verizon and Alltel agree to a deal for one to buy the other (as has already been done), the government should NOT have a say in this. I can’t agree here if only due to anti-trust laws to stop monopolies. That’s why the government has oversight on mergers of this size.
Hey Mara! ~waving~ I actually find Obama’s lack of experience to be a plus. Sometimes experience, especially in politics it seems, is a tether that keeps us tied to the status quo rather than trying bold, new things. And sometimes experience keeps you from doing something stupid, but that’s not the point I’m going for here. In the case of politics We the People seem tired of the status quo so experience isn’t necessarily helpful. Look at all the “experience” we have in our past few congresses which bascially have managed to accomplish nothing.
I’m quite disappointed in Shaunti this week. She seems to argue in favor of maintaining the status quo of ‘us vs them’ which has worked out well for the country how in past 8 years?
By NetBanker
June 13, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Hey kids! It’s been a long time since I’ve had time to post or even to read along. apparently I’m catching next week’s topic early because the only posts are from today…which made the catching up sooo much easier.
Dan…very good points. One small thing though that I learned from a co-worker about 18 years ago that has always stuck in my head to share with you. Irregardless isn’t a word. It’s always regardless.
Kimberly…can’t argue there.
Jeff…I completely agree about 3rd parties. Americans need to get the message out that when we want change we want REAL change and not just another candidate from the currently corrupted parties. If Verizon and Alltel agree to a deal for one to buy the other (as has already been done), the government should NOT have a say in this. I can’t agree here if only due to anti-trust laws to stop monopolies. That’s why the government has oversight on mergers of this size.
Hey Mara! ~waving~ I actually find Obama’s lack of experience to be a plus. Sometimes experience, especially in politics it seems, is a tether that keeps us tied to the status quo rather than trying bold, new things. And sometimes experience keeps you from doing something stupid, but that’s not the point I’m going for here. In the case of politics We the People seem tired of the status quo so experience isn’t necessarily helpful. Look at all the “experience” we have in our past few congresses which bascially have managed to accomplish nothing.
I’m quite disappointed in Shaunti this week. She seems to argue in favor of maintaining the status quo of ‘us vs them’ which has worked out well for the country how in past 8 years?
By AH
June 13, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
Kim your a jerk because you made me actually look something up, ie. the murder rates. As to using fthesouth.com as a credible source is laughable. You do realize that it is a parody site at best. Even in 2004 those facts were not true. You need to start thinking for yourself before someone takes advantage of your naivety.
By Jeff
June 13, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
NetBanker:
Ah, but the government IS a monopoly!!
Why should we give one monopoly the power to stop another??
By RF
June 13, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
Hey Netbanker!! I thought you’d disappeared with many of the other reasonable folk! Shaunti, along with many conservatives, are very afraid of losing the hard-drawn lines of conservative vs. librul. They won’t know who to trust then! LOL Seriously, I think they see the shift in politics to liberals as a major threat to their security. To think that people could be open-minded and think for themselves is a proposition that many hard-line conservatives can’t stand. They’re also afraid, IMO, of the moderates like myself who find Obama a serious contender for the Oval Office. I can guar-on-tee you the pulpits will be blazing with gloom and doom messages and all sorts of hate-mongering once the McCain-Obama fight gets rolling. The world is “going to hell in a handbasket” for them right about now.
By Archie
June 13, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
RF you have done something not done in a long time, that is, admitting to a small mistake. I don’t know if you’re a man or woman but I felt good reading your post.
That lady told you she had concerns about Obama’s lack of experience and you dismiss her as a liar and imply that it must be Obama’s skin color that bothers her. Mara, I know this lady personally so there are other things about her that lead me to that conclusion. Her information was wrong about his healthcare plan and I know this lady. She has said some racist things. Also Mara pat yourself on the back because you went and looked up the information and if you can do it this lady can too because she has the same internet access I have. Also Mara, you said since your candidate is not in the race any longer you will probably vote for Obama. Mara pat yourself on the back because you’re using a rational standard. Also remember I voted for Hillary! so basically I am doing what you’re doing,i.e, making a rational evaluation and going forward. I had some concerns about Obama and that’s why I didn’t vote for him but the race is over and if you hate the war and healthcare is important then logically how do you not vote democratic if you are a registered democrat.
By Truth
June 15, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Well, when many of the “solutions” mean the loss of liberty or the infliction of your set of beliefs on me/my family, you’re right. We on the left are resistent to it.
Classroom full of kids raised in the Christian faith. Except for one kid. One kid is from a family that taught them no religion. So the one kid’s parents raise hell about the fact that the other kids are praying in class or have a Bible in class or some kid writes a report on what religion means to them.
So a liberal’s view is that justice was served and the liberal solution is to deny the rights of every kid in that class so ONE kid will be happy.
Liberals not wanting other’s views pushed on them. LOL! No matter how many others get the liberal viewpoint forced upon them. Yes, we ALL know what it means to have the beliefs of others pushed down our throats.
I get so tired of hearing about poor liberals getting pushed around when you guys are the most dictatorial and demanding group in America.
By Truth
June 15, 2008 8:36 AM | Link to this
Copyleft
What a shame that evangelicals are now turning to environmental responsibility, care for the poor, affordable healthcare, and other “liberal” causes.
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. The crap you need to believe to be a liberal. LOL!!! This is one entertaining place to visit.
My Scout troop was extremely environmentally responsible back in the 1950s, 1960s. That would be when Al Gore was living in his racist daddy’s hotel suite in Washington. That troop was sponsored by a church.
Every church I have attended since birth helped the poor. Please list those liberal organizations that help the poor. Of course liberals attend church, but apparently you want to divide the culture into evangelicals and liberals. So list three. That should be easy. You claim caring for the poor is a liberal cause. Tell me how they are doing that.
We had affordable health care before the HMOs took over control of Hospitals. That happened the last time we allowed a liberal in the White House.
If liberals ever start looking at what the democratic party actually does instead of what it claims, there wouldn’t be a Democrat left.
By JokesOn
June 15, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
So a liberal’s view is that justice was served and the liberal solution is to deny the rights of every kid in that class so ONE kid will be happy.
You lie yet again in order to almost have a point. They can pray to themselves in a moment of silence. It just cannot be a school organized praying session.
Now if you want to talk about limiting rights, a better example would be the xians trying to disband student run gay and lesbian groups. Xians were so against it that they, in some places, tried to remove all student functions, including sacrificing their own, to get rid of one group.
Those are examples of what you are seeking to profess, but do not fit your argument.
Please list those liberal organizations that help the poor.
Nearly all of them now have a liberal swing, pushing condom use, and not promoting religion as a backdrop. They have evolved beyond what they were. Red cross, doctors without borders….
By JokesOn
June 15, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
No matter how many others get the liberal viewpoint forced upon them.
That would be the viewpoint of “you can do what you want and I can do what I want.” Soooooo limiting!
You are just as funny as the day you stumbled in here.
By USinUK
June 16, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
Truth -
So the one kid’s parents raise hell about the fact that the other kids are praying in class or have a Bible in class or some kid writes a report on what religion means to them. So a liberal’s view is that justice was served and the liberal solution is to deny the rights of every kid in that class so ONE kid will be happy.
We’ll set aside the fact that it isn’t just a classroom of Christians vs. one atheist/non-religious person … it also applies to a classroom of SoBaps vs. one Catholic or a classroom of Catholics vs. one Jew or a classroom of Jews vs. one Muslim …
Kids are allowed to pray all they want. They can say grace before their meals, they can participate in Rally Around the Flagpole, they can participate in the MANDATORY 60 seconds of silence at the beginning of every school day, they can take part in the religious groups that are allowed to meet after school.
What they CAN’T do is force other kids to pray with them via LED prayers.
It’s called freedom. The kids are allowed to practice their religion all they want (pray, read the bible during breaks, etc), but can’t foist these beliefs on other kids.
I get so tired of hearing about poor liberals getting pushed around when you guys are the most dictatorial and demanding group in America.
yep, you’re right. we DEMAND the right to believe and practice our own faiths in our own way - or not practice any at all - without being forced to pray and/or pray YOUR way.
As for my non-religious groups that help the poor, when I lived in the states, I donated to Dress for Success and Goodwill … off the top of my head, a third non-religious group that helps the poor is America’s Second Harvest. Internationally, as Jokesy mentioned above, there’s Medecins san Frontiers (Doctors without Borders) as well as Engineers without Borders, and there’s Peace Corps …
Would you like for me to continue or have we made our point that religious organizations don’t hold a monopoly on caring …
By Jo
June 16, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this
I have two comments. I agree the USA will remain red-blue until we have at least one viable alternative. The current method of voting a third party or a write-in (otherwise called “none of the above”) is generally throwing away the vote or pulling votes from the democrat.
Second, a comment on the radio Friday after reading this column made me think again about how my hypothetical candidacy would explain to an electorate that I am an atheist and how that does not mean I am amoral. Consider the concept that faith does not depend on religion; not a particular religion nor any religion. Faith is something completely different. The concept I first heard in the early 70’s that reordered my life is ‘enlightened self-interest’. You matter to me because your welfare impacts my welfare. MOst religions I have studied don’t talk about this. The idea there is that if you follow the rules, the dogma, of that religion, everything will be good.
Shauti’s condemnation of non-church-goers is short-sighted. Faith does not depend on a church.
By USinUK
June 16, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
Jo -
Faith does not depend on a church
… however, sales of her books seem to …
By Archie
June 16, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Archie - what is it with the “democrats are liars” you’ve been pushing lately? Mara,to answer your question further I will tell you this. This lady supported John Edwards and she says she concerned that Obama’s healthcare plan will not be affordable, well tell me logically why would she say that when Edwards plan was not free? In other words you don’t even know the premium of either plan but you just throw something out there. When I asked about that contradictory logic she said I was campaigning and walked off. Basically some folk are not making honest statements about what they are against. I am not trying to suck up to anyone but there are some people here that need to pat themselves on the back for example see Mara,Netbanker,RF and others including the republican people here. I say that because you know what you’re for and what you’re against.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
USinUK
What they CAN’T do is force other kids to pray with them via LED prayers.
That was simply not the case and I believe you know it. We prayed and said the pledge every morning. There were two Jewish kids in my high school of 1,200 students. They didn’t pray. They were never expected to pray. Praying was not mandatory. It was never forced on anyone. What was forced on EVERYONE was the nonsense that it was offensive to non-Christians so it was taken out of our schools.
It is the basic liberal mantra: One liberal’s perceived rights outweigh the rights of every other person. If the liberal does not get their way, it is always a matter of “Freedom”. What a croc.
yep, you’re right. we DEMAND the right to believe and practice our own faiths in our own way - or not practice any at all - without being forced to pray and/or pray YOUR way.
No. What you demand is that everyone worship or not worship like YOU want. Their rights mean nothing. Please explain to me how the 1198 students in my high school’s rights were protected to worship how they like. Who spoke for them? Hell, who spoke for the two Jewish kids. Their parents were the biggest hell raisers when prayer was taken out of the schools.
It is always the case. How many years have fascist Democrats been trying to get Rush Limbaugh off the air? How do you feel about FOX News? Watch what WE SAY by GOD or you will be infringing on OUR rights. The ACLU is basically the black shirts for the Democratic party. They force so many municipalities to comply with just a very few liberals while infringing on the rights of thousands. Most cities can’t afford the lawsuits and fold because of the massive amount of money that the ACLU takes from those cities. It is fascism at it’s very worst.
Would you like for me to continue or have we made our point that religious organizations don’t hold a monopoly on caring …
Non of those are “liberal” organizations. And the imbecile doesn’t understand that the Red Cross is a disaster relief organization not one to help the poor, even though they aren’t a liberal organization either.
But that was not the point. (Joke missing the point? Say it ain’t so!!) This is the post I was responding to:
What a shame that evangelicals are now turning to environmental responsibility, care for the poor, affordable healthcare, and other “liberal” causes.
So Copyleft seems to think that churches were not charitable organizations at all. They are now taking their newly found charity from “liberal organizations”. That would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
Don’t answer my posts based on the hysteria of the Joke. He isn’t even smart enough to understand the discussion.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
Archie Mara
Twilight Zone Music
Democrats lying? NO!!!! Say it ain’t so.
Here’s a fun game: Check back and see how many campaign promises have been broken by Democrats since the 2006 elections.
And BTW, how are you liking all this really cheap gasoline that the democrats promised. And isn’t it great that we are now out of Iraq and all of our soldiers are safe and sound back here at home.
I have pasted your argument on my favorite conservative forum. It is a huge hit. Democrats that lie? Noooo. Can’t be.
By Archie
June 16, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
Now if you want to talk about limiting rights, a better example would be the xians trying to disband student run gay and lesbian groups. Xians were so against it that they, in some places, tried to remove all student functions, including sacrificing their own, to get rid of one group. Here in my hometown there was a case that received national attention in that the principal has resigned because a gay and lesbian club was formed at his high school. He says such a group goes against his values. Well the school board in that area seems, seems to trying to do away with groups unless directly related to school functions or something like that. Basically they are going to sacrifice some student groups to get rid of the gay and lesbian club. Christians are not bad people especially since I went to church yesterday and not all of us think alike. I would be bashed if I gave my opinion of certain things but if church folk ask I will give my opinion to them straight with no chaser. Also after reading of a gay couple that’s been together 55 years, 55 years, I think it’s time for society to be progressive and move on.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Don’t answer my posts based on the hysteria of the Joke. He isn’t even smart enough to understand the discussion.
Yeah. That is it!
Couldn’t be that you cannot back up your position once again. You only can make outlandish claims, ambiguously point to racist or fundi positions, while saying you are neither.
You have no point except for everyone should adhere to your conservative frame of mind and practices. Screw everyone else’s beliefs since you find them invalid.
And need we remind you how many times you stormed off (one time to start some fundi crusade)? And then come back hiding under yet another name? Real big of you little boy.
By USinUK
June 16, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Truth -
That was simply not the case and I believe you know it. We prayed and said the pledge every morning. There were two Jewish kids in my high school of 1,200 students. They didn’t pray. They were never expected to pray. Praying was not mandatory. It was never forced on anyone.
If you have a teacher-led prayer, then it IS being forced on the child, whether you like to acknowledge it or not. Speaking as a former lone Catholic student in a sea of SoBaps in my school, I DO know what it’s like to be a religious minority and to be proselytized at. Wouldn’t wish that on anyone for the world. (nothing like being a 3rd grader and told I was going to burn in hell as an idolator …)
What you demand is that everyone worship or not worship like YOU want. Their rights mean nothing.
Sorry, Truth, but your argument doesn’t hold water. If that was the case, we would be storming churches demanding that they change their services - or prohibiting them all together. We wouldn’t allow religious groups on school grounds. We would have “thought police” that would prohibit any silent prayer whatsoever.
Please explain to me how the 1198 students in my high school’s rights were protected to worship how they like.
As I said above, the 1198 students in your school could still read the Bible, participate in prayer groups, have religious groups meet after school, say grace before their meals and pray before their tests. The decision to not have teacher-led prayer did not curtail their rights one iota.
BTW - even before the 1962 Engle vs. Vitale case, there were numerous movements to remove prayer/religiousity from schools for the reasons I just mentioned - because those of different faiths were being alienated (Protestants in largely Catholic areas and vice versa). That movement started in the mid-1800s so that, by the time the court case was decided, it really only affected about 60% of schools. It was in 1948 that religious instruction was removed from public schools (McCollum vs. Board of Education) - so, this evolution has been happening over MANY decades, not just since you were a kid.
Non (sic) of those are “liberal” organizations.
Peace Corps isn’t a liberal organization??? um. okay. Then define what YOU mean by “liberal” for me - I just used the premise that you and Jokesy were outlining of liberal vs. evangelical … since none of the ones I listed above are evangelical, then they must be liberal.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Archie
Homosexual clubs in high school. Hmmm. A high school club based on the sexual orientation of underage students. A club that’s membership is based on how a child has sex.
NAMBLA, anyone?
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Homosexual clubs in high school. Hmmm. A high school club based on the sexual orientation of underage students. A club that’s membership is based on how a child has sex.
NAMBLA, anyone?
Can you get anymore ignorant? (probably should not ask that!)
You show your true colors in these statements.
By Nauseous
June 16, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
The lone little Jewish boy in my third grade class was singled out daily and made to take a chair and sit in the hall while our large, scary, gray-haired teacher pulled out her bible and read to us, and then made us stand and sing hymns — IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. How DARE she make that little boy feel “different” every single day school day? Can you imagine being eight years old, sitting out there feeling like a freak? As a parent now, remembering this makes me angry on so many levels. At least she’s not teaching school anymore!! What a b——!
By sage
June 16, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
Hey, Netbanker good to hear from you after such a long break. You too RH. I enjoyed your p*ness USinUK. Hey Mara and Kimberly! Don’t we feel sorry for Truth? We need to give him the cryin’ towel again. Poor old guy had his right to pray stolen from him in high school by those mean old LIBRULS, ACLUers! No wonder he’s so cross and cranky. He was forbidden to pray, (yeah, right) along with all those other poor kids!
By RedState Unabridged Dictionary
June 16, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
lib·er·al - /ˈlɪbərəl, ˈlɪbrəl/ Pronunciation Key - [lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] – adjective
any idea or action not specifically endorsed by the John Birch Society, the Chalcedon Foundation, PNAC, and the Weekly Standard.
any person not opposing such ideas or actions.
anyone not subscribing to every belief and opinion of forum poster “Truth”.
any idea or action said poster does not endorse.
[Origin: 1325–75; ME < L līberālis of freedom, befitting the free, equiv. to līber free + -ālis -al]
By Jo
June 16, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
The clubs for homosexual kids it to help prevent teenage suicide, not to promote underage sex. Please! Underage kids have sex; always have, always will. Being gay, I can relate. Imagine having to restrain all those adolescent hormones when they are firing in the opposite direction of your age mates?
By Truth
June 16, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I see the hysteria has started again. I’ll make this short.
The problems you encountered for being a Catholic was not because of the morning prayer. Nor was it corrected because of the banning of the morning prayer. If someone told you that you were going to burn in hell for being a Catholic, did that sentiment go away with the prayers?
The prayer we recited was the Lord’s Prayer. Catholics say the same prayer.
We wouldn’t allow religious groups on school grounds.
Other than reading that statement and getting a giant shiver down my spine about the fact that you think that you should have the ability to decide exactly how much Christians are “Allowed” to worship, I do find the statement disturbing on so many other levels.
In many school districts, religious organizations are not allowed on school grounds. It’s the same way with the Boy Scouts. After the fascists decided that unless Boy Scouts allowed homosexual men to take adolescent boys into the woods for sleep overs, many troops that had been sponsored by city and community groups. Not now. Cross a fascist, pay the price.
You are a smart women, but you refuse to see any other side except the liberal viewpoint. You never answered my question about who defended the rights of the 1198 students in my high school. The reason why you didn’t answer the question is because you have been taught not to care. if it is a matter of one liberal’s rights over thousands of others, the hell with everyone’s rights… except of course, the liberal.
Peace Corps isn’t a liberal organization??? um. okay. Then define what YOU mean by “liberal” for me
What I meant was what I had posted all along, not what the half wit tried to make the discussion about. I told you what and who I was respondiong to. I did not even respond to joke. The question is: Why did you when writing to me?
It is bad enough, having to deal with several on here that have the IQ of a bag of dirt, but when anyone starts any discussion, the half-witted zombies chime in and drag the conversation in a thousand different directions, none of which had anything to do with the original idea.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Sage
Grow a brain, imbecile.
By Libsrule
June 16, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this
Damn Right. Somebody get a rope.
that damn truth just better shut the hell up. WE ARE RIGHT AND I’LL BE DAMNED IF I AM GOING TO SET HERE AND ALLOW ANY OPPOSITION TO WHAT WE ALL KNOW IS RIGHT!!!!!!
We are open minded people that help the poor get their welfare checks. Hell with the rights of anyone who doesn’t agree.
GO PROGRESSIVES. We are almost God-like in our sanctity.
By Mara
June 16, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this
look out, guys. Here comes the Waaaaaaaahbulance…LOL!!
Hey Net (~waving back~)!
By USinUK
June 16, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Truth -
If someone told you that you were going to burn in hell for being a Catholic, did that sentiment go away with the prayers? no, it didn’t - but the prayers DID exacerbate it.
The prayer we recited was the Lord’s Prayer. Catholics say the same prayer. not exactly - Protestants tack on “for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory” blahblahblah at the end
Other than reading that statement and getting a giant shiver down my spine about the fact that you think that you should have the ability to decide exactly how much Christians are “Allowed” to worship, I do find the statement disturbing on so many other levels.
criminey, here we go again with your reading comprehension issues … I didn’t say that anyone should have the ability to decide how people are allowed to worship. I said that IF a group was limiting the ability to worship, that is what they would do. there’s a big difference.
In many school districts, religious organizations are not allowed on school grounds.
Absolutely untrue. In a 2001 case (Good News Club vs. Milford Central School), the Supreme Court upheld an earlier decision for religious organizations to meet on school grounds as part of extra-curricular activities. If a school doesn’t have any, it isn’t because it’s prohibited.
You never answered my question about who defended the rights of the 1198 students in my high school
to save you the trouble of scrolling and re-reading, here is the answer to your question, the abbreviated answer is THEY DIDN’T NEED DEFENDING BECAUSE THE KIDS STILL HAD THEIR SAME RIGHTS TO PRAY.
The unabridged answer is: As I said above, the 1198 students in your school could still read the Bible, participate in prayer groups, have religious groups meet after school, say grace before their meals and pray before their tests. The decision to not have teacher-led prayer did not curtail their rights one iota.
The question is: Why did you when writing to me?
I don’t know if you noticed this, but you’re participating on a message board. Everyone responds to everyone. Deal with it.
By Libsrule
June 16, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
USinUK
I’d like to talk to you about a couple of things that recently happened. I miss those talks. But civility is simply not allowed here any more. Look at the responses this morning and yesterday.
I just drafted a very long letter to you, not talking politics but I deleted it. This has become a very nasty place.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
I don’t know if you noticed this, but you’re participating on a message board. Everyone responds to everyone. Deal with it.
This blog is parallel to his school led prayer example. It must be his way. You are with us or against us.
All meaning there is no middle ground he is happy with: Ironically, it is a completely un-american idea that fits in with old ussr politics.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
It is bad enough, having to deal with several on here that have the IQ of a bag of dirt, but when anyone starts any discussion, the half-witted zombies chime in and drag the conversation in a thousand different directions, none of which had anything to do with the original idea.
Original like:
The majority of a school/city/government agency should be able to dictate what religion gets portrayed?
That homosexuals are extremely promiscuous?
That homosexuals = pedophiles?
That blacks have no right to seek equality through the legal system?
Are those the totally backwoods type of notions you are referring to?
By Truth
June 16, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
USinUK
You just don’t get it. No, they didn’t have the exact same rights. They could not pray in unison before school started. They were not allowed to leave the room to pray, they were forced to eliminate part of their morning ritual to please a very small minority.
I’m sure you will scoff and say how little importance that praying in unison thing was so it was OK to get rid of it. The problem is that it is not YOUR decision as to what is important and what is not, circling back around to why you are taught not to care.
Yes, one religious organization (Good News Club) had the money and time to fight the school system and take the case to the supreme court. They won. Most do not.
This is the Anti-defamation League’s stance on the issue:
General Rule: Released time programs may be constitutional if the religious classes take place off school grounds, if no public school funds are expended, and if school officials or teachers do not promote program attendance through coercion or other means.
(Off school grounds? Not exactly what you thought.
May a religious organization rent school facilities for a released time program? A public school may not rent its facilities for such purposes. The location and timing of the religious classes, combined with the impressionable ages of the students, could create the erroneous impression of official school support for the program. Importantly, under any circumstances, a released time program may only take place off school premises.
Religious organizations cannot even rent the school, but other organizations can. Want to hear about the dance recital I attended two weeks ago at a high school auditorium? Mostly naked teen girls bumping their butts to “Push It Real Good” and “Booty Bump” is OK. Bowing your head and thanking someone other than Al Gore for your blessings is bad. Got it.
If you have the money to take the school all the way to the supreme court, justice can be had. But for most organizations, the millions required are simply not available. Most ACLU lawsuits could be beaten with the proper funds. Again, it is fascism at it’s worst.
If you want to discuss an issue with me, confront me with what I say, not on what the village idiot says. I will be responsible for what I say. If you want to take the side of the person that supports the occasional sexual exploitation of children (<18 is a child in Georgia) and thinks that the Red Cross is a liberal organization that helps the poor, have at it. But don’t expect me to attempt to follow his ill educated logic.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
USinUK
It is bad enough, having to deal with several on here that have the IQ of a bag of dirt, but when anyone starts any discussion, the half-witted zombies chime in and drag the conversation in a thousand different directions, none of which had anything to do with the original idea.
Posts at: 1:12 PM Today 1:07 PM Today 12:27 AM Today 11:29 AM Today 11:22 AM Today 11:08 AM Today 10:45 AM Today 10:11 AM Yesterday 10:05 AM Yesterday
See what I mean?
By FELLOWSHIP OF CHRISTIAN ATHLETES
June 16, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
“Truth”, you are a dumbsh!t. We meet at public schools every week! There are tens of thousands of us, meeting UNIMPEDED on middle school and high school campuses across America, and right here in Georgia. We do so with full permission from the school and voluntary participation from the students.
Look us up at www dot fca dot org. Dumbsh!t.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
You just don’t get it. No, they didn’t have the exact same rights. They could not pray in unison before school started. They were not allowed to leave the room to pray, they were forced to eliminate part of their morning ritual to please a very small minority.
What you cited were * religious classes.* Not exactly a student led group.
Religious organizations cannot even rent the school, but other organizations can. Yup. Any Non-religous group can rent a school. A school is government property - ie: owned by ALL the people.
Bowing your head and thanking someone other than Al Gore for your blessings is bad. Got it.
When was the last time anyone typed gores name? Can you say “stereotyping?”
Call me what you wish, it only shows that your cro-magnon-like behavior is not limited to discrimination and ignorant statements. It also kinda voids your repeated premise that everyone else but you posts derogatory remarks.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
If you want to take the side of the person that supports the occasional sexual exploitation of children (<18 is a child in Georgia)
If you want to throw stones, I am not the one visiting unregulated pedo-promoting sites.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
See what I mean?
It is a public blog, not your private soapbox. You are getting to stupid for words to describe.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
If you want to take the side of the person that supports the occasional sexual exploitation of children (<18 is a child in Georgia)
Not for the purposes of sexual exploitation…
TITLE 16. CRIMES AND OFFENSES
CHAPTER 6. SEXUAL OFFENSES
O.C.G.A. § 16-6-4 (2007)
§ 16-6-4. Child molestation; aggravated child molestation
(a) A person commits the offense of child molestation when he or she does any immoral or indecent act to or in the presence of or with any child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
FELLOWSHIP OF CHRISTIAN ATHLETES
MISSION VIEJO, Calif. — An Orange County school district has banned extracurricular clubs from its campuses rather than allow the establishment of a Christian club.
The action resulted from a lawsuit settlement by Saddleback Valley Unified School District, which agreed to exclude social and service clubs rather than allow a chapter of Fellowship of Christian Athletes on one of its campuses.
Calling someone a dumbshit before you do a simple google search would make you a …
a , , ,
dumbshit. Wouldn’t you agree?
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Truth is lying again:
(Per OCGA 16-6-3) If you have sexual intercourse with any person under the age of 16 years, you will have committed statutory rape.
18+ is the age you have to be to be in movies/pictures.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Just my attempt to show that Truth says pretty much anything but…
By Truth
June 16, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
OK. You are in the clear. LOL!!
The discussion was about the porn industry. Do you have any of those O. C. G. A.s that say that a girl can be a public fornicator when she is 17?
And you are never “just” anything, unless you think of yourself in that way.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Calling someone a dumbshit before you do a simple google search would make you a … a , , ,
dumbshit. Wouldn’t you agree?
Right back at ya.
By AH
June 16, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
I guess any change of getting back to the discussion of whither this country is more of a red vs blue or red vs blue vs purple is out the door at this point, huh??
By Truth
June 16, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
Just my attempt to show that Truth says pretty much anything but…
And apparently your desperate attempt has failed miserably. And you have no one to blame but yourself. Learn what the discussion is about before you chime in.
Pleeease tell me you are not a litigation attorney.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
The discussion was about the porn industry. Do you have any of those O. C. G. A.s that say that a girl can be a public fornicator when she is 17?
Depends on what you mean by public?
By Truth
June 16, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
Hmmm. So I was actually talking to JokesOn when I was addressing Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Now that is pretty odd considering that the joke insists that he NEVER comes here under other names. Sort of makes him out to be an obvious liar.
Wow. I am SHOCKED!!!
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
What Truth doesn’t tell you is:
If the school allowed noncurriculum clubs, trustee Dore Gilbert says, then the school “could have the Aryan Brotherhood, gay clubs, satanic clubs; it would open it to everybody.” (The school denied club status to a homosexual group last year.)
(http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/june11/31.21.html?start=2)
Sounds like the same laws protecting your rights DO protect those of other beliefs. All are equal under the law.
Also sounds like a pretty intolerant school. Unlike you, we can show dissent towards our political affiliation. Also, I read nowhere that this was a democrat led endeavor. This was a school’s decision (Saddleback Valley Unified School District), not the any organizations.
But you want preferential treatment and to omit that the same school denied a homosexual club as well.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
I mean porn. And in his ill-educated, bad grammar, way, so did Joke when he posted this:
18+ is the age you have to be to be in movies/pictures.
Read man, READ.
By Lily Toad
June 16, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
In the midst of name calling I’d like to respond to one of Shaunti’s remarks. I totally agree that Supreme Court appointments are one of the most important factors in the election. That’s why I’m voting for a Democrat. Wars come and go but Supreme Court decisions last for a long time and impact society until a case comes along where a sitting court has a chance to overturn the earlier one.
I’m sure Shaunti’s confederates are hoping for the case to overturn Roe v. Wade.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Justajew,
This is where the discussion started 2 weeks back:
Truth, The reason is the porn industry is very connected with organized crime and much of modern porn exploits women and children.
So I was actually talking to JokesOn when I was addressing Fellowship of Christian Athletes.
Nope. Just following up on your lies. I know you would love to try to vindicate yourself from posting so many times under other names, but isn’t gonna happen.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
OK. You are in the clear. LOL!!
and then ….
And apparently your desperate attempt has failed miserably
which is it? your previous post clearly stated If you want to take the side of the person that supports the occasional sexual exploitation of children (<18 is a child in Georgia)
Nowhere does it say anything about the porn industry. Personally I think it’s a bad idea for people of any age to be involved in the porn industry. Then again, that’s a personal opinion and I’m not about to go imposing them on anyone.
By Archie
June 16, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
Y’all have to help me out but if teen girls were dancing naked would not that be against the law if it took place at a high school? Want to hear about the dance recital I attended two weeks ago at a high school auditorium? Mostly naked teen girls bumping their butts to “Push It Real Good” and “Booty Bump” is OK. Bowing your head and thanking someone other than Al Gore for your blessings is bad. Got it. Those statements cannot be taken seriously can they? Is it possible to have serious discussion about a topic without namecalling? I thought RF and Mara asked some good questions last week that could have lead to some good discussion but it seems as if nonsense has shown up as usual.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Then again, that’s a personal opinion and I’m not about to go imposing them on anyone.
Watch it! That is a liberal notion deserving a chastising by the Truth.
By Mara
June 16, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
I thought “public fornication” was illegal for everyone!!
And I may be mistaken, but aren’t the courts protecting the rights of the poor oppressed christians who are being discriminated against? And how does one turn the occasional over-reach of some individuals into a mass movement of state-sanctioned discrimination?
By Mara
June 16, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Archie - did you hear Obama’s Fathers Day speech? If so, what’d you think of it?
HI LILY!!!
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Archie,
Is it possible to have serious discussion about a topic without namecalling?
You know that is all truth is about. His names reflect his condescending mindset as well as the plain out derogatory.
We could all just help each other not feed the troll, but that seems to be the only use of the blog now. Poke the troll and watch him run crying.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
which is it?
If you want to molest children in Georgia that are 16 or 17, you are in the clear. But we were talking about the exploitation of children by the porn industry.
Since it is illegal to video tape penetration or sodomy in Georgia, there are no regulations as to those productions. In states where porn is legal to shoot, there are government regulators to check the age of the participants. There is much porn shot in states like Georgia because no one will question the age of the participants resulting in children as young as 13 or 14 appearing as adults.
It is very common and many many stories on the internet tell about this, but since a conservative introduced the idea, the brainiac decided that it could never happen and the porn industry exploits no one.
Personal opinions that children should not be exploited should be imposed on others. Stand up, man. Join the fight. We are talking about children here. Is there anything worth fighting for?
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
It seems as though poor Truth has had his rights trampled on since the day he escaped from his mother womb. Persecuted by us pesky Jews! Not allowed to have scheduled prayer times with others in his class and to have those prayers led by the preach, errr teacher. Nobody asked my brother Ari if his rights were trampled on when he was literally trampled on by some of his classmates because he was, shhhh a JEW! My parents simply pulled us out of the public school where the “presecuted” Christians went and enrolled us in a private Jewish school. Problem solved.
By Archie
June 16, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
I totally agree that Supreme Court appointments are one of the most important factors in the election. That’s why I’m voting for a Democrat. Wars come and go but Supreme Court decisions last for a long time and impact society until a case comes along where a sitting court has a chance to overturn the earlier one. Please be sure to point that out some of your fellow democrats Lily Toad.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Archie
Those statements cannot be taken seriously can they?
They should be taken VERY seriously. But the fact that you jumped to misquote me and say that the girls were naked proves that you have no intention (more than likely, you simply don’t have the mental acumen to understand the seriousness) to take them seriously.
I have watched debate on this forum when there are no conservatives around. ALL of those issues are always life or death. But any opposition to the goose stepping mantra and we get what we have gotten today. An occasional swipe at me personally, or even your semi-civil approach stating that the subject is just not worth discussing. Other than that, no discussion is offered.
Don’t worry. Tomorrow, I have a lot of work and you guys can return to your enlightened subjects like “Did you actually say that a Democrat lied? EXPLAIN YOURSELF and do it now!!”
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
More outlandish statements from truth that have no tie to reality.
the brainiac decided that it could never happen and the porn industry exploits no one.
Show me where I stated it never happens? Come on…I will wait and admit I was wrong IF you can find it and cite it…
After you fail in that pursuit, you have to prove that it regularly happens.
(But those under-the-radar porn sites he visits are totally legit!)
Damn. He cannot make a point without sounding like a fool to save his life. Poor soul.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Personal opinions that children should not be exploited should be imposed on others
I think that this is an opinion held by a vast majority of the populace and therefore doesn’t need to be imposed since the imposition will, more than likely, find a person of like mind. Still, let me ask your opinion on this…suppose this 17 year old “child” has a fake i.d. that is flawless and wants to perform in this movie, is it still exploitation?
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
Justanidiot
Sorry Pal. Doesn’t work. My mentor and adviser for years has been a Rabbi. I have donated land and money to the Ramah Camps. My company is a preferred vendor for several Jewish owned companies. Try to hold your bigotry back for someone who actually has a problem with Jews.
Glad your poor parents could afford a Jewish School. Now they wouldn’t need to spend that money. All that nasty old prayer is out of the schools and aren’t they just a shinnin’ from it?
Aren’t you proud of the way that our schools turned out?
I tried to be civil, but you are just another slobbering half-wit, if you are not actually yet another persona of the giant joke.
By Lily Toad
June 16, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Hey, Mara! Glad to see there are a couple voices of sanity on here today.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
I tried to be civil, but you are just another slobbering half-wit, if you are not actually yet another persona of the giant joke.
Yep. Like the matrix I just take control of random people to go up against you. Or…your opinions (like homosexuals being equal to pedophiles) are just THAT flawed and insulting.
By Mara
June 16, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
I don’t quibble with “a Democrat lied” if said Democrat actually did lie. What I have a problem with is “why can’t democrats be honest”. Two different statements. But that was last week and between Archie and I.
oh, and Archie didn’t ‘misquote’ you. You did say the dance recital was “mostly naked girls…”
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
I tried to be civil, but you are just another slobbering half-wit, if you are not actually yet another persona of the giant joke.
Translation: I tried to make you agree with me but since you won’t I will have to resort to name calling.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
recent quotes from JokesOn pertaining to the porn industry:
As for the porn industry exploiting children and women, pure bs. It makes me wonder how accurate your name “truth” applies since you attached your professional perspective to such an off base statement.
Even IF truth was not fabricating/embellishing this stuff, it is perfectly legal to take non-porn shots of underage kids in the buff with parental consent.
Saying the porn industry exploits children is total bs. You can call it what you want, but it is still a lie.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
Sorry Pal. Doesn’t work. My mentor and adviser for years has been a Rabbi. I have donated land and money to the Ramah Camps. My company is a preferred vendor for several Jewish owned companies.
and all this means what? that you don’t persecute Jews? I don’t persecute Christians either. All I’m saying is, let’s not have a double standard here…you can point to the fact that you, as an individual, don’t persecute Jews, I, as an individual, can say that I don’t persecute Christians. Does this mean that persecution doesn’t exist? REALLY? and if we take a look at history I think I can guarantee that my people have gotten the worse end of the deal. After all, I don’t think that anyone in your family was killed for being Christian while I lost ALL 4 grandparents to ignorance and hatred. (not to mention the fact that my brother still walks with a slight limp from the beating he received over 35 years ago). So let’s not go there. WAAAAAA, I can’t have organized prayer in public school!!! WAAAAAA!!!! doesn’t compare to “Get on your knees dirty Jew b*******!” and then BANG!
By Lily Toad
June 16, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Archie, actually I did point out the importance of Supreme Court Justices just yesterday to a group of fellow dems. Are you agreeing?
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
In all fairness to Truth, Mara, “mostly naked girls” isn’t the same as “naked girls.” Of course, “mostly naked” for Truth probably means dresses that don’t quite cover the ankle…
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
So we are being civil now?
suppose this 17 year old “child” has a fake i.d. that is flawless and wants to perform in this movie, is it still exploitation?
17 years old is not old enough to decide such things. That is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the State of Georgia. Yes she is exploited. Did she play a part in that exploitation? Of course. But she is a minor. She can’t even be held responsible for her own decisions.
I have problems with children having sex on camera. Only on a liberal forum would I get so much hassle because of that belief. You all must be very proud.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Truth,
I cannot see the word “never” anywhere in that post. And we are also back to the word “child” does not imply a 16-17yo with a fake ID. Lie all you want, but you are wrong.
Bzzz….try again.
You still have to back up your initial statement with proof of some sane sort…
By Archie
June 16, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
Mara, what I heard of Obama’s speech yesterday I was okay,just okay with it. As you know I am opinionated when it comes to men. I did not grow up with a bad father and none of the guys I grew up with had a bad father either so that’s just one reason I react when I see certain criticism of men. I have learned from talking to so many women of color,etc. that many men in their lives were abusive so I do I have a better appreciation for what some women have been thru. I still think women(black women) get too much credit and not enough blame but I definitely understand better now than I did weeks ago why so many negative attitudes towards men. Good question last week Mara.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
So let’s not go there. WAAAAAA, I can’t have organized prayer in public school!!! WAAAAAA!!!! doesn’t compare to “Get on your knees dirty Jew b*!” and then BANG!
Ohhh, he will and has gone there! More-and-more Truth sounds like a crusty old white man who, after living a privileged life, is pi$$ed to see the playing field leveled.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
She can’t even be held responsible for her own decisions.
You want to tell that to George Stinney, you know, the kid who was executed after serving time on death row at the age of 14? Electrocuted in South Carolina. He was 14. Not responsible for his own decisions?…what’s your opinion?
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
JustAJew
Thanks for agreeing that everyone has been persecuted. And sorry about your grandparents, but because the National Socialist Workers Party persecuted them does not mean that others can’t point to modern injustices.
Get off your high horse, Pal. I am part Native American. Want to compare atrocities? All of our ancestors had a hard time. But I didn’t and apparently, neither did you.
Sorry, but guilt is not genetic. I feel bad about your Grandparents, I feel bad about my Great Grandparents and I feel bad about starving children in the Sudan. But I will continue to point out injustices whether you like it or not.
By Archie
June 16, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Archie, actually I did point out the importance of Supreme Court Justices just yesterday to a group of fellow dems. Are you agreeing? Hell,yes I am agreeing!!!
Thanks Mara for backing me up at 3:12 pm. I hope I answered your questions from last week. You bring some seriousness to this blog that’s needed.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Mara and Archie
You are right. When I went back and read the statement, it could be taken as meaning that some of the girls were completely naked. None were naked. All were close. Tiny bikini bottoms with a see through flimsy top. A few had flesh colored sports bras on, but most did not.
I apologize.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
It just chaps my hide when these self-righteous Christian types (not all Christians by any means) whine and moan about how miserable their lives are because their “freedoms are being curtailed” at every turn. Man I shudder to think about what kind of complaints they’d vomit if they received some real persecution. They’ve NO idea what REAL misery and suffering is.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
I have problems with children having sex on camera. Only on a liberal forum would I get so much hassle because of that belief. You all must be very proud.
Ohhh stop lying for god’s sake.
You stated that modern porn exploited children and then followed up by stating that you visit unregulated site as a means not to support the industry.
I simply stated that exploitation of children and women was not a facet of the industry worth basing any such bs on; and more-over your habits of internet porn was flawed. You either are providing click-throughs, ad-money, or visiting unregulated sites which is one of the only places you will find illegal material.
If you actually had any sense you would purchase porn from companies that are noted for being honest and valid.
You then state that because georgia does not have a regulation for porn these companies come here to shoot child porn. As if they can put that crap on the shelves and profit from it! No one would know since they cannot advertise “underage” and they would make the same amount of money as if they took no risk.
Pssst….the majority of child porn creators are independent photographers and they trade personal collections online at….unregulated sites!
And I am the one with flawed logic!
By Ironman Carmichael
June 16, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Oh, that “secular northeast.” Boston Babylon! Pennsylvania, for one, is a genuine swing state. How can you tell? Go to any diner: the TV over the bar will be tuned to Fox News Network, but there’s a bottle of Heinz ketchup on every table (so every time you glunk your freedom fries you’re making John Kerry’s wife richer).
By Truth
June 16, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
You want to tell that to George Stinney, you know, the kid who was executed after serving time on death row at the age of 14? Electrocuted in South Carolina. He was 14. Not responsible for his own decisions?…what’s your opinion?
My opinion was that he was killed in 1944. Left that out, didn’t you? In 1944 the age of consent in South Carolina was 14. You are just too easy. You are going to need to go find a smart person to help you. I’ll wait.
They’ve NO idea what REAL misery and suffering is.
Do you? Or do you just know what your grandparents went through. You make me sick. Your grandparents deserve all our respect, but your using their misery to prop up some lame argument supporting child porn is disgusting.
By JokesOn
June 16, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
Your grandparents deserve all our respect, but your using their misery to prop up some lame argument supporting child porn is disgusting.
No. You using the real issue of child porn to back your hypocrisy is what is sick. And you merging different discussions to put totally false statements in a bloggers mouth is sick and reeks of having no argument what so ever…again.
By JustaJew
June 16, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
My opinion was that he was killed in 1944. Left that out, didn’t you? In 1944 the age of consent in South Carolina was 14
Interesting point. and how, pray tell, has a child’s capacity to be responsible for their decisions changed from 1944 to now?
but your using their misery to prop up some lame argument supporting child porn is disgusting.
please tell me where I’ve attempted to link the two at any point. I believe the two points I was trying to link are your obvious belief that Christians are suffering from persecution because they cannot have organized prayer in public schools and the very real persecution that Jews have suffered and continue to suffer to this very day.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
JustaJew
Interesting point. and how, pray tell, has a child’s capacity to be responsible for their decisions changed from 1944 to now?
Totally different time. Most kids were married by the time they were 20. Many by the time they were 16. My dad had two real jobs when he was 16 because my Granddad had died. That was common. Was it right? Who knows. I wasn’t alive then.
I believe the two points I was trying to link are your obvious belief that Christians are suffering from persecution because they cannot have organized prayer in public schools and the very real persecution that Jews have suffered and continue to suffer to this very day.
What? Didn’t you just continue your support of child porn by pointing out that a kid was killed in SC at the age of 14, comparing that fact to the age of consent in Georgia? Can you at least follow the discussion?
Christians have moved beyond the prayer in school debate and have established many good private schools that blank most public schools. Public schools are in shambles. Our children cannot compete in a global market. And all this is from the control of our schools by unions and special interest groups.
Christians will always recover. That is why I respect them so much. But so will Jews. That is also why I respect them so much.
Every race and creed have people that suffer. But for you to use that suffering to justify crap like this:
it just chaps my hide when these self-righteous Christian types (not all Christians by any means) whine and moan about how miserable their lives are because their “freedoms are being curtailed” at every turn. Man I shudder to think about what kind of complaints they’d vomit if they received some real persecution. They’ve NO idea what REAL misery and suffering is. is total BS.
Christians have been and are being slaughtered all over the world. You do not hold the patent on misery. Once again: get off your high horse.
By RF
June 16, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
but it seems as if nonsense has shown up as usual
Noooooo, really??
There does seem to be a real fear in our society right now of letting people think for themselves and dare to question the good ‘ol guvment. I really think the conservatives are just about as scared as they were in the sixties. We’re definitely in a period of surging interest in the rights of previously ignored or denied groups. It scares the establishment to think that gay people could be as successful as the straight at marriage and parenting and do indeed want there to be social order AND peace. Imagine life without fear of Big Brother…and those SIIIINFUL ho-mo-sexuals running around loose. I have heard far too many messages of hate and fear preached from Baptist pulpits to know how they feel about it all. It’s sad.
By Archie
June 16, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
Mara and Archie You are right. When I went back and read the statement
Wow! That’s the second time in a week that someone admitted to making a small mistake and apologized. If people did that off the blog who knows how much change for the better could occur. I accept the apology and I am impressed.
By RF
June 16, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Mara and Archie- one reason I respect Obama so much is how successful he has been having come from a less than ideal family. He offers a wonderful counterbalance to the role models too many of our young African-American males have right now. As a teacher, I lay awake many nights searching for ways to reach that group of boys who are often so difficult to reach with the idea that education is indeed important. I hope (and I do a LOT of that) that he will become president so that we’ll have a new role model to use. I want to be able to say to my kids, “look at what you can do. He had it tough too but he became PRESIDENT!” It will be a good way to reach those boys with a message of “you really do matter as a person.” I tell them that every day, but it’s hard to make them believe it when so many of the men in their lives are suffering and falling. Society right now isn’t sending that message or worth, AT ALL! (okay, I’ll come down off the soapbox now, my keyboard is smoking!).
By Archie
June 16, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
RF, the preacher spoke against homosexuality yesterday but I realize what his comments are based on,however, when you see two ladies one 87, and other 84 that have been together 55 years, at least to me, it becomes a matter of just moving on and letting them have the privileges in the event of sickness and death of a spouse. My church members would roll their eyes at me for saying that but I have “man up” and say what’s on my mind. Obviously those women loved each other and marriage is about economics and order as well as love so let them put their affairs in order and let the rest of us that don’t understand, don’t like, or whatever, get out of the way.
By Truth
June 16, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
RF
The problem is that you believe that the Conservative World is the “Establishment”. Atlanta local government is completely Democratic. Until 1996, even the Georgia State Government was completely democratic. The US Congress has been controlled by the democrats for two years.
Out of the many, many cable channels, one is conservative. Hollywood is liberal. Cable news is liberal. (Other than FOX) Network news is liberal.
It is that unassociated rebel that attracts so many progressives, but it simply ain’t so. To be a liberal is to follow the guy in front of you. Just look at this blog. Liberals will agree that child porn is a good thing to keep from agreeing with a conservative.
You are right about Conservatives being scared. We see what has happened to the economy since the Democrats took over Congress. We are terrified. Why aren’t you?
Now give that special interest driven Congress total control with no one to hold back the taxes and the environmental wack jobs.
Enjoy the $10/gal gas. It’s right around the corner.
By RF
June 16, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
so let them put their affairs in order and let the rest of us that don’t understand, don’t like, or whatever, get out of the way
The “live and let live” is hard to make people believe, isn’t it? It’s truly sad when you see two people whose relatioship has outlasted so many be so looked down upon by people. People, not God, just people. I’ve had a hard time finding a church in recent years for that reason. I’m growing very, very tired of man’s manipulation of God to invoke fear and predjudice in man. It’s funny how people will treat you just fine until they hear that awful G-A-Y word. Might as well have leprosy.
The good news is, the issue is out there and growing more prominent each year. I watched a show recently that showed how current issues parallel the rise of social issues in the 60’s and 70’s. Things will change, but it will take time.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Liberals will agree that child porn is a good thing to keep from agreeing with a conservative.
More lying?
We see what has happened to the economy since the Democrats took over Congress.
Concept was blown out of the water already.
The problem is that you believe that the Conservative World is the “Establishment”. Seeing as the conservative party is one of exclusion and liberals are one of inclusion, there are many things that would logically follow. One is that the small group of conservatives hold more marbles, given they are predominately old crusty white men, who historically made their money standing on the little guys back and suppressing the masses.
Another logical outfall is that as a group of inclusion and therefore have a more chaotic process since the people that make up that group are so varied. Take PETA for example. I think they have served a valid purpose, but also have some wack-jobs there like the ones creating comics containing propaganda to stop fishing.
Yeah, that makes it more difficult and there are going to be some fringe elements that are crazy, but I would rather those issues than being part of an elitist group that denies whole groups of their constitutional rights and freedoms.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
RF
one reason I respect Obama so much is how successful he has been having come from a less than ideal family.
He attended Panahou, the most exclusive private school in Honolulu, Hawaii. His loving grandparents sent him there and his mother was allowed to stay home because she simply didn’t need to work.
Sorry, but I can’t imagine that would inspire a kid living in the ruins of the democrat’s great Society.
Honolulu, mansion, private school.
Atlanta, ghetto, public school.
So what is it they are supposed to be inspired by?
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this
Truth -
They could not pray in unison before school started. They were not allowed to leave the room to pray, they were forced to eliminate part of their morning ritual to please a very small minority.
okay, I’m going to say this one last time (even though I know you’re still not going to get it): Kids can meet and pray together before school, during lunch, and in the hallway in between classes. What they cannot do is have a teacher or another student lead them IN CLASS (see: Rally Around the Flagpole).
Now, as far as “praying aloud”, that actually is NOT an obligation of Christianity - in other words, it’s a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have. You can still be a practicing Christian if you don’t pray aloud AT ALL during the day. I should know - I are one and I don’t. ever.
Unlike some people, I actually believe what Christ said about praying quietly and to yourself lest you look like a pious jerk-wad. (or something to that effect)
Yes, one religious organization (Good News Club) had the money and time to fight the school system and take the case to the supreme court. They won. Most do not.
Well, now that GNC won their case, most don’t have to worry about it anymore, now do they?
Most ACLU lawsuits could be beaten with the proper funds. Again, it is fascism at it’s worst.
okay, I’ll bite … are you actually saying that the Christian community wouldn’t fund a fight to the Supreme Court?? Are you saying that the Christian community has no dough? Are you saying that organizations like CBN and Focus on the Family don’t have the coffers to support such a fight? ah. yeah. right.
By The Morality Show!
June 17, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this
Welcome to the MORALITY SHOW! Starring everyone’s favorite host: The one and only…… TROOOOOOOOOOOF!
Wondering what your problem is? Wondering why your values are in the toilet? Wondering how your thinking about absolutely everything is completely wrong?
Hang on to your a-s-s-es, kids! The one and only TROOOOOOOF is about to tell you!
DON’T GO AWAY! WE’LL BE RIGHT BACK AFTER THESE IMPORTANT MESSAGES!
By Archie
June 17, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this
He offers a wonderful counterbalance to the role models too many of our young African-American males have right now. As a teacher, I lay awake many nights searching for ways to reach that group of boys who are often so difficult I heard another teacher say the same thing RF. Let me say this,however, I think we look to high for role models because most African-American males are good guys not perfect but good. I just saw a delivery guy on my way into the office and I think about the computer programmer, computer technician, and the job service person that I see everyday. I mean not one of these people is living the high life like Obama but they are working daily and they value education. Down there in Atlanta it should be easy to find professional or just plain good blue collar folk as role models. You don’t have to be a millionaire like Obama to live good or be a good guy. Good money management and following the laws and a person can live comfortably.
By Tancred
June 17, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
It’s almost unbearable for me to sift through the “content” of the AJC to get a little news about Atlanta. If it isn’t some story about Pandas or shoe shopping, it’s some alledged “columnist” like Feldhahn or Wooten spewing the same old saw to the same old audience that never seems to change around here. She’s one more embarrassment to Georgia to add to the long list. And NO. I won’t “go back” north where I came from; I’m gonna spend my time helping to repair the damage that ignorant bible thumpers have done to The South.
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
Archie -
You don’t have to be a millionaire like Obama to live good or be a good guy. Good money management and following the laws and a person can live comfortably.
I gotta ask … why is being a millionaire seen as a BAD thing - especially with Obama and John Edwards - BOTH of whom made their money themselves, they didn’t inherit it. Why isn’t he seen as a good role model for what all kids can aspire to??
Between the 2004 election and this one, I really don’t get the animosity towards them as “elitists” when they worked hard for what they’ve got. Unlike certain current inhabitants of Penn Ave, their daddies didn’t give them everything they’ve got.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
By USinUK
They could not pray in unison …
Unlike some people, I actually believe what Christ said about praying quietly and to yourself lest you look like a pious jerk-wad. (or something to that effect)
The problem is that you shouldn’t have the ability to dictate what you believe to others. It’s called Freedom, remember? If someone wants to be a jerk-wad, it is not your right to decide their punishment. No one should, but they did. And that is the point of this conversation. Liberals force their beliefs on other people. You can rationalize about how you are right and what they believed was wrong all you want, but you are simply reinforcing what I am saying. It isn’t your or any other person’s right to dictate where and when they should pray. The flagpole may be fine for you, but it was not their choice.
Well, now that GNC won their case, most don’t have to worry about it anymore, now do they?
If the organization has the money to go through the court system, chances are, unless it is a very liberal judge they will win. So once liberals have forced them to spend thousands, tens of thousands, even millions, yes, they can gather on school grounds. But of course, most small local religious organizations can’t afford that.
See the article I posted to Joke when he waas pretending to be the poster called
FELLOWSHIP OF CHRISTIAN ATHLETES
MISSION VIEJO, Calif. — An Orange County school district has banned extracurricular clubs from its campuses rather than allow the establishment of a Christian club.
The action resulted from a lawsuit settlement by Saddleback Valley Unified School District, which agreed to exclude social and service clubs rather than allow a chapter of Fellowship of Christian Athletes on one of its campuses.
okay, I’ll bite … are you actually saying that the Christian community wouldn’t fund a fight to the Supreme Court??
Again, the amount of money required to fight through the courts is prohibitive.
The city of Los Angeles was going to be sued by the ACLU for a small cross that was on the city logo. The cross was a reference to the old mission that was the beginning of the city. Most legal experts said that the ACLU would lose this one because of the historical significance of the symbol. But instead of spending the tens of millions the city would need to be paying the ACLU lawyers if they did lose, (they do collect millions when they win the law suits in court costs. Not exactly such a noble undertaking. Lawyers making big money: how noble) they spent almost three million having a new logo designed and repainting every single vehicle in the LA city motor-pool. What a noble thing the ACLU did. 3 million dollars that could have gone to the schools, but it was spent at the demand of the fascists.
Are you saying that the Christian community has no dough? Are you saying that organizations like CBN and Focus on the Family don’t have the coffers to support such a fight? ah. yeah. right.
Keep it real. Do you really believe that all Christian organizations support each other? They don’t have a big criminal international arms dealer like George Soros to finance their causes. BTW, that arms dealer is Obama’s #1 financial supporter. That’s got to make you proud.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
Archie
Damn good post. I know getting that from me might result in people with torches coming to your house at midnight, but very good thoughts. Role models are everywhere, especially in this great city.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
Tancred
Let me just say that, as a Southerner, I personally really appreciate you taking the time to straighten out all of us dumb hillbillies. I personally look forward to the improvements by which you will obviously bring this small backward town of Atlanta into the 21st century.
Maybe someday we will become the modern, economic powerhouses of cities like Detroit, Cleveland and Hartford. LOL!!
Thanks again. We are all soooo glad you are here. (It gives us yet another silly assed yankee to laugh at.)
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
See the article I posted to Joke when he waas pretending to be the poster called
More lies.
And if you read the article you will see that xians were not the only group banned. So you have no point.
The problem is that you shouldn’t have the ability to dictate what you believe to others. It’s called Freedom, remember?
Freedom for all would be accurate.
You just do not have the cognitive ability to understand that banning school led prayer is totally different than what you (wrongly) claim.
You are, as in your very first post, pushing a government religion.
By The Morality Show!
June 17, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
HI-LARIOUS HIJINX! The one and only TROOOOF spells it out for the ignorant masses. Put those earplugs in on the count of three! Blindfolds? READY! Wrap those chastity belts around your mouths, kids! THE LIBERALS ARE FORCING THEIR BELIEFS ON YOU!
They’ll never win, though. Not with TROOOOOF in your side! They’ll never promote their sick, twisted brand of “freedom” whereby people can choose to act according to their own belief systems as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of others. TROOOOOOOF knows that failing to infringe IS infringing! Slavery = Strength, War = Peace, and WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EURASIA!
TROOOOF has spoken! And now a few words from our corporate sponsors who’ve shipped American jobs and bank accounts overseas in the interest of your freedom. Don’t go away now!
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Truth -
The problem is that you shouldn’t have the ability to dictate what you believe to others.
Not allowing a teacher to lead a prayer is not even in the same neighborhood as telling people what they should/shouldn’t believe. In fact, it’s the polar opposite - a teacher leading a prayer is telling an entire classroom what to believe.
And, again, you can put your fingers over your ears and yell LALALALALALALA all you want, but kids can still meet together before and during school to hold prayer groups (praying either aloud or to themselves). Fact, Jack.
As for the FCA case - again, that had nothing to do with their being a Christian group, but everything to do with the fact that they exclude gays and lesbians.
unless it is a very liberal judge they will win
liberal = you don’t agree with their decisions, regardless of how Constitutional they are. got it.
the amount of money required to fight through the courts is prohibitive.
really? you mean there are only 1 or 2 cases that can afford to go to the Supreme Court? You mean that lawyers don’t ever take on a case if it’s something they believe in? You mean that, really, it’s only the plaintiffs with really deep pockets that fight the fight??? I think someone needs to start doing a little research to find out how untrue that BLANKET statement is.
Do you really believe that all Christian organizations support each other?
Do I believe that CBN could get their viewers to send checks and money orders in order to support a court case? yes, I do. Do I believe that Dr. Dobson could do the same on his radio show? yes, I do.
don’t have a big criminal international arms dealer like George Soros to finance their causes
HOOORRRAAAAYYYYY!!! It’s only Tuesday and Truthie already brought up George Soros (that’s usually an end-of-the-week fallback for him)… btw - did all the other liberals on this board get their checks from Soros last week? I think the Royal Mail must be holding mine up …
Now, who wants to throw money into the pool on what day/time Truth will blame Pelosi personally for the high price of gas??? I’ll put £2 on Wednesday … 8:54 a.m.
By Archie
June 17, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
gotta ask … why is being a millionaire seen as a BAD thing - especially with Obama and John Edwards - BOTH of whom made their money themselves, they didn’t inherit it. Why isn’t he seen as a good role model for what all kids can aspire to?? First of all UsinUk, Obama and John Edwards are good role models. Being a millionaire is a GOOD thing!! I wish I was a millionaire!! I can only speak for me by saying that there plenty of good black men that are not millionaires. Remember only about 2 to 3 percent of the entire population earns over 250,000 dollars a year so why not look at the business analyst,mailman, truck driver,teacher, or principal. Some of those earn 50,000 dollars a year or better. Also being a journalist is not a bad profession but it’s tough to really get paid young. When showing any kind of young people anything you have to show different levels of goodness. A guy with a two-car garage and a nice house might inspire some young men. If I had managed money better I would be doing really well but still not in the top 20 percent of wage earners but you don’t need that to be a good role model.
By Mara
June 17, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
btw - did all the other liberals on this board get their checks from Soros last week?
LOL!! Mine was bundled together with my copy of “The Homosexual Agenda” and my marching orders from Howard Dean. :^)
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Archie -
When showing any kind of young people anything you have to show different levels of goodness. A guy with a two-car garage and a nice house might inspire some young men.
WELL SAID!! :-)
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
Mara -
LOL!! Mine was bundled together with my copy of “The Homosexual Agenda” and my marching orders from Howard Dean. :^)
thanks … I now need to clean tea off my computer screen.
;-)
By Truth
June 17, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
By USinUK
Not allowing a teacher to lead a prayer is not even in the same neighborhood as telling people what they should/shouldn’t believe. In fact, it’s the polar opposite - a teacher leading a prayer is telling an entire classroom what to believe.
They changed their practices because liberals forced that change onto them. Can you debate that? Can you challenge that?
And, again, you can put your fingers over your ears and yell LALALALALALALA all you want, but kids can still meet together before and during school to hold prayer groups (praying either aloud or to themselves). Fact, Jack.
That facts is that they changed their practices because liberals forced that change onto them. The only person covering up their ears is you.
As for the FCA case - again, that had nothing to do with their being a Christian group, but everything to do with the fact that they exclude gays and lesbians.
LOL!!!
Ahhh.
I see.
Well then.
Because they don’t walk in goose step with yet another liberal cause, it is OK. I see a pattern forming here. Why don’t you?
“liberal = you don’t agree with their decisions, regardless of how Constitutional they are. got it.”
No. The constitutionality has already been decided. It’s now just a matter of money to see that those rights are enforced.
really? you mean there are only 1 or 2 cases that can afford to go to the Supreme Court? You mean that lawyers don’t ever take on a case if it’s something they believe in? You mean that, really, it’s only the plaintiffs with really deep pockets that fight the fight??? I think someone needs to start doing a little research to find out how untrue that BLANKET statement is.
I would suggest looking at the examples I have given to start with. Stay away from MoveOn and other propaganda sights and go to real organizations that do real research.
Do I believe that CBN could get their viewers to send checks and money orders in order to support a court case? yes, I do. Do I believe that Dr. Dobson could do the same on his radio show? yes, I do.
Give me a break. With all the lawsuits like this, the shows would be nothing but supporting court cases.
HOOORRRAAAAYYYYY!!! It’s only Tuesday and Truthie already brought up George Soros (that’s usually an end-of-the-week fallback for him)… btw - did all the other liberals on this board get their checks from Soros last week? I think the Royal Mail must be holding mine up …
I’m going to keep bringing up a man that sells arms to African War Lords. You can count on it and no amount of your self humiliating will stop that.
This man tried to destroy the economy of France and ENGLAND (I’m sure you heard of that one) And now he is supporting the Democratic candidate in the US. Do you REALLY think he has the better interest of this country in mind? Do you think you know more about the economy and the effects of a democratically controlled Washington better than this brilliant billionaire? Throw all the Joke-like tantrums you want. You are simply admitting that you have nothing else but these stupid hysterics.
Truth will blame Pelosi personally for the high price of gas???
So much for your ability to stage a civil debate. I have commented on the fact that Pelosi sent out a press release promising cheaper gas. And out of that, you get that I am blaming high prices on Pelosi. What the hell is wrong with you? This isn’t like you at all.
Get it under control, girl. You are embarrassing yourself.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
They changed their practices because liberals forced that change onto them. Can you debate that? Can you challenge that?
So, we are back to the crusty old rich white man doesn’t want his “special” privileges taken away!
Not much different than forcing you and your fore fathers to have to share all of the bus.
Poor, poor you!
USinUK,
Did you keep up with the story about the xian group that filed a lawsuit against the Muslims up north? They complained about the “call to prayer” singing. The judge ruled that if he prevents the singing, that the xian church bells must stop too. They too cried foul because their dominance was disappearing.
Such hard times to be a xian!
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Seriously Truth,
You get a new job in another city (in America) and move in that summer. All seems well until your 6yo comes home from school and explains that 5 times a day the teacher stops class activities for prayer to mecca. During which time your daughter can sit in the hall, sit quietly at her desk, or participate.
You would be totally fine with that?
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
Truth -
They changed their practices because liberals forced that change onto them. Can you debate that? Can you challenge that?
ah, so your problem isn’t that kids can’t pray in schools, you’re now upset that they can’t be teacher-led? Stick with the subject - you said kids can’t pray aloud or in silence. They can. Case closed.
Because they don’t walk in goose step with yet another liberal cause, it is OK. I see a pattern forming here. Why don’t you?
Again - stick to the subject. You asserted that the FCA was banned because they were a Christian group - and you were wrong.
And, thanks for confirming that conservatives have no problem with discrimination.
MoveOn and other propaganda sights and go to real organizations that do real research.
yayyyyy!!! George Soros AND Move-On - both mentioned on the same day and in consecutive posts!!! we’re nearly a trifecta!!
I’m going to keep bringing up a man that sells arms to African War Lords
Riiiiigggghhhhtttt … your problem with Soros is a moral one because of arms dealings and his market manovers. I’m sure you’d be just as morally outraged if he was bankrolling GOP candidates.
And out of that, you get that I am blaming high prices on Pelosi
No, from your postings saying things like “since the Dems have been in office, gas has gone up to the highest levels, bankruptcy is up, I have been afflicted with piles” blahblahblah. THAT’s where I get that you blame Pelosi.
You are embarrassing yourself.
~sniffle, sniffle~ I’ve been chastized by Truth … woe …
By Still Nauseous
June 17, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
They changed their practices because liberals forced that change onto them. Can you debate that? Can you challenge that?
The way it was: “The lone little Jewish boy in my third grade class was singled out daily and made to take a chair and sit in the hall while our large, scary, gray-haired teacher pulled out her bible and read to us, and then made us stand and sing hymns — IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. How DARE she make that little boy feel “different” every single day school day? Can you imagine being eight years old, sitting out there feeling like a freak?”
The way it should be: Children of all religious backgrounds can come to their public school and learn, and not be singled out or made to feel inferior by their teachers because their family does not follow the rituals and practices advocated by oppressive, over-reaching “conservatives” who oppose the separation of church and state. Did liberals fix that? If so, then YAYYYYYYYY LIBERALS!
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Jokesy -
The judge ruled that if he prevents the singing, that the xian church bells must stop too. They too cried foul because their dominance was disappearing
I didn’t read about that. What a great ruling, though - very wise and just judge.
I’ve been following cases here where the courts have been looking at what exactly is required to be a Christian - for instance, a school girl wanted to wear the “Silver Ring Thing” ring to school to declare to all and sundry that she is chaste (her private school prohibited all jewelry). The judge made the same ruling in her case that another judge did with the woman from BA who wanted to wear a cross necklace to declare her Christianity - while they are symbols that you are a Christian, they are not required of your faith, so a workplace or school can prohibit them.
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
The judge made the same ruling in her case that another judge did with the woman from BA who wanted to wear a cross necklace to declare her Christianity - while they are symbols that you are a Christian, they are not required of your faith, so a workplace or school can prohibit them.
This I actually don’t agree with. The laws in this country promoting the separation of church and state are a good thing. However, I don’t see how this can be enforced. As long as I’m not imposing my religious belief on someone else, I believe I should be able to wear decoration declaring my faith. I’m proud to be Jewish, I wear the Star on a chain around my neck with pride and I don’t see this as an imposition. I know a school is a government institution but with this ruling we can extrapolate: When we have a bumper sticker on our car with “WWJD” or some such slogan and we pull onto the federal highway system, do we then have to remove said sticker?
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
Also, and I can’t believe how much I’m playing the “Devil’s Advocate” today, isn’t there some kind of rule in the Christian faith that says you have an obligation to “spread the good news” about Jesus? I don’t know if it is or not but if so, then wouldn’t this be a “requirement” of the religion?
By Truth
June 17, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
By USinUK
ah, so your problem isn’t that kids can’t pray in schools, you’re now upset that they can’t be teacher-led? Stick with the subject - you said kids can’t pray aloud or in silence. They can. Case closed.
No. The original discussion was about how liberals push their views on others while constantly whining about their rights. Your “Case closed” says it all. A liberal claiming that the discussion is over.
WE CAN’T TALK ABOUT IT …
ANYMORE!!!
Yep. I’d say that closes the discussion alright. LOL!! You could not have proven my point any better.
Again - stick to the subject. You asserted that the FCA was banned because they were a Christian group - and you were wrong.
No. The subject was about how liberals push their agenda onto others, exactly what happened with the FCA.
And, thanks for confirming that conservatives have no problem with discrimination.
And this is from someone that supports the party of George Wallace and Robert Byrd. You should certainly know all about discrimination.
yayyyyy!!! George Soros AND Move-On - both mentioned on the same day and in consecutive posts!!! we’re nearly a trifecta!!
Maybe you should make a list of your demands. Tell me what I can and cannot discuss. Can we discuss the fact that liberals want to dictate what others think and say or are you going to dictate that I can’t think or say anything about that?
Riiiiigggghhhhtttt … your problem with Soros is a moral one because of arms dealings and his market manovers. I’m sure you’d be just as morally outraged if he was bankrolling GOP candidates.
Now that’s some real logic. LOL!! He isn’t supporting a Republican because he knows that under a Republican, the economy will strengthen. George Soros would never want a strong US economy any more than he wanted a strong French or English economy. He doesn’t make billions on speculation if a country has a strong economy.
No, from your postings saying things like “since the Dems have been in office, gas has gone up to the highest levels, bankruptcy is up, I have been afflicted with piles” blahblahblah. THAT’s where I get that you blame Pelosi.
I made the statement a couple of months ago that speculators have no faith in the democratically ruled congress and you couldn’t stop saying how wrong I was. Now the government, NBC, CBS, ABC and CNN all agree that it is the speculators that are driving up the gas prices and inflation.
The Congress has a lower approval rating than Bush. They are doing nothing but proving that most of the old school dims that kept the economy straight from 1952 until 1992 are now gone. The ultra left has taken over your party, driven by the money of people who openly want this country to go away.
It does not take a psychic to see that a Congress led by anti-capitalism special interest groups will hurt our economy, putting billions in the pockets of speculators who are now and will continue to feed on an capitalistic economy that is ran by socialists.
Capitalism is not always a good thing, but like it or not, it is what makes America run. If you put imagined environmental boogiemen over the welfare of a working public, the economy will continue to crumble. And that is exactly what Congress is doing. Once the White House is not a stopgap for such environmental groups, the spotted owl and the Alaskan Elk will have a great place to live. We are f*cked. inflation will be astronomical and we will be fighting the energy wars for the rest of our lives.
But those animals will be happy, happy, happy.
~sniffle, sniffle~ I’ve been chastized by Truth … woe …
Well, at least you did calm down before you wrote most of this post.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
USinUK
The judge made the same ruling in her case that another judge did with the woman from BA who wanted to wear a cross necklace to declare her Christianity - while they are symbols that you are a Christian, they are not required of your faith, so a workplace or school can prohibit them.
Yes. What a wonderful ruling. As long as you walk in goose step with fascist. Demanding what people wear to work? Just a piece of Jewelry? You have GOT to be kidding me.
And you wonder why others believe that liberals want their views forced on everyone.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
This I actually don’t agree with. The laws in this country promoting the separation of church and state are a good thing. However, I don’t see how this can be enforced.
You may be (or i may be mistaken) missing a main part of that case. Jewelry was prohibited in general and the two people in each example claimed freedom of religion in order to be exempt from that no-jewelry rule.
The religious jewelry was not prohibited specifically.
Also, and I can’t believe how much I’m playing the “Devil’s Advocate” today, isn’t there some kind of rule in the Christian faith that says you have an obligation to “spread the good news” about Jesus? I don’t know if it is or not but if so, then wouldn’t this be a “requirement” of the religion?
Ehhh. It is part of the general message to spread the good word, but not a requirement and no where does it state that every conversation should be in that arena.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Yes. What a wonderful ruling. As long as you walk in goose step with fascist. Demanding what people wear to work? Just a piece of Jewelry? You have GOT to be kidding me.
Hmmm. Both you and JustaJew misunderstood the post, yet one of you responded like an adult and the other a whiny little boy using slander.
Guess which is which…
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
The religious jewelry was not prohibited specifically.
That’s a horse of a different color. I did not realize that the case was about not wearing jewelry period as opposed to religious jewelry specifically. Thanks for the clarification.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
And you wonder why others believe that liberals want their views forced on everyone.
Tell us one more time exactly what that view that liberals force on others is.
Oh yeah. Government run institutions cannot promote any religion. So unfair for xians not to be able to force their belief on others! They were born with the right to force others into their belief system. Just look at history and you will see a precedent has been made and occupation should be tolerated.
By Retardo-Rama
June 17, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
No. Sense. Allowed.
The shrieking outraged bloviator wants the blog all to himself. Give it to him. There is no point in trying to talk sense here. Dain bramaged shrieker wins all debates or he poops his pajamas all over Shaunti’s nice carpet. He makes sure no actual conversation can take place.
See ya, retard. Have fun shouting when no one is listening.
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
I have way too many wrinkles to be a little boy :)
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
Jokes,
I went and reviewed this case a little bit out in google-world. As is always the case, sometimes it’s hard to verify things in cyberspace but I’ve seen comments to the effect that this school, while supposedly banning all jewelry, let’s people of the Sikh faith wear something called a kara bracelet. I was wondering if you’ve seen any commentary to this effect and do you think it’s true? If it is true, why do you think they allow them to wear it? maybe because Sikh is obscure?
By Truth
June 17, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Hmmm.
So while the big joke was gone, we had no idiot posts like this:
See ya, retard. Have fun shouting when no one is listening.
But the big joke shows up and somehow, he is always accompanied by a howling monkey with a cute little name like Retardo Rama.
Hmmm.
But the big joke swears he never appears as anyone else, even though he tends to answer when someone addresses those screaming monkeys. I’m sure it’s just an honest mistake that he makes over and over again.
Hmmm.
I wonder if the big joke realizes that a lot of the regulars have not spoken to him in a couple of weeks? Could it be that they too are growing tired of his constant temper tantrums? He started the day with one, as he usually does. i’m sure I am not the only one that noticed.
I’ll bet I get a big sermon for this one.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
I went and reviewed this case a little bit out in google-world. As is always the case, sometimes it’s hard to verify things in cyberspace but I’ve seen comments to the effect that this school, while supposedly banning all jewelry, let’s people of the Sikh faith wear something called a kara bracelet. I was wondering if you’ve seen any commentary to this effect and do you think it’s true? If it is true, why do you think they allow them to wear it? maybe because Sikh is obscure?
I thought I recalled that the bracelets are like the Hindu dot (no offense to Hindus, I have no idea the proper name) and a requirement of the faith.
A parallel would be letting a jewish boy wear his kippah (correct term?) because it was required by his faith on certain holidays or such (may be ignorant example, but you get the just of it) even though the school bans all hats.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
But the big joke swears he never appears as anyone else,
You are missing one major part that is necessary to have that make sense: Motive.
I have no problem calling you out for what you are under my own name.
Watch: I am more convinced than ever that you are a backwoods redneck with a laptop you traded your wifes gold tooth for at the pawn shop. Only thing is who help you set it up? Nephews I bet.
Could it be that they too are growing tired of his constant temper tantrums? He started the day with one, as he usually does.
Boy do you have a major case of projection. You just described yourself!
By Copyleft
June 17, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
I get it now, Truth! Your problem with liberals is that they “enforce” the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution! And that gets in the way of government promotion of Christianity, so it’s intolerant and oppressive!
Thanks for clarifying. Under those terms, yes—you BET liberals are tyrants. We’re tyrannical about protecting our civil liberties, and we won’t let ANYONE get away with tearing them down. Aren’t we just terrible that way?
Truly, the Jews suffered less under Hitler than Poor You do every day from our liberal, intolerant, fascist ways….
By Truth
June 17, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
Joke
OK.
Now roll over.
By JustaJew
June 17, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
Watch: I am more convinced than ever that you are a backwoods redneck with a laptop you traded your wifes gold tooth for at the pawn shop. Only thing is who help you set it up? Nephews I bet.
hehehe, too funny. the only question I have is, is his wife also his sister? and if so would those really be his nephews? you know, keep it in the family :)
By Truth
June 17, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
big joke
I have no problem calling you out for what you are under my own name.
No. You can’t display the hysterics you display under other names. You have told on yourself way too many times to continue denying this. This is just another reason for others to realize what you are.
Give it up. Everybody knows. How hard was it to figure out?
You leave: civility.
You return and lots of crazy people show up throwing the worst insults at me even though I had never addressed them in any way. Wow. What a brilliant plan!! You should be a secret agent!! Or maybe it’s a bot that is following you around. LOL!!!
You are gutless and you don’t have the guts to admit that you are gutless. (Do you get that I really enjoy watching you and your little theater?)
BTW. I thought you said that I was privileged white person. If you are going to be a racist bigot, keep it straight. Am I privileged or am I selling my wife’s gold tooth?
But seriously, everybody is really tired of you, joke. Yesterday I didn’t answer a single post from you but you posted post after post after post that were nothing but adolescent attempts at an insult. And that doesn’t even count all the howling monkey posts.
You have no problem calling me out, but you are so damn stupid that most of the time, the thing you are calling me out for, I didn’t even say. So again, you are damned entertaining.
Just a few minutes ago, you claimed that I would have no one to talk to and you immediately was ready to answer anything that I wrote. You are an imbecile, Pal. You are the dumbest person I have ever met on a forum.
I belive that for a long while, your fellow liberals were just embarrassed for you, but now they are sick of you. And why wouldn’t they be?
By Mara
June 17, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
By Truth
June 17, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
Joke
OK.
Now roll over.
I didn’t know Truth was greek…
By USinUK
June 17, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
JustaJew -
The BA case prohibited wearing of any religiously oriented jewelry (no cross, no star of david) - they didn’t want any of their customers to feel alienated. While, personally, I think that’s just plain silly, I thought that the judge’s reasoning that wearing a cross isn’t required by Christianity made perfect sense.
As for the 5 Ks of sikhism (their comb, the knife, the bracelet, their undies and their hair), that is a requirement of the religion, so, they are allowed in the cases that have gone to court (the only cases I could find were in Canada and in NY).
By Truth
June 17, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Copyleft
I get it now, Truth! Your problem with liberals is that they “enforce” the freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution!
So … that means that the freedom to dominate anyone that you didn’t agree with before say … 1965 didn’t exist. Hmmm.
And how do you feel about our schools now that all that nasty old religion has been taken away? Standards used to be the best in the world. Now they are slightly below most third world countries.
Yep. Those democrats really know how to educate our youth.
And that gets in the way of government promotion of Christianity, so it’s intolerant and oppressive!
Government promotion of Christianity? What a horrible thing. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Damn. What a nasty concept!!
Thanks for clarifying. Under those terms, yes—you BET liberals are tyrants. We’re tyrannical about protecting our civil liberties, and we won’t let ANYONE get away with tearing them down. Aren’t we just terrible that way?
Wow. What a great sermon. I think you have covered all the bases. I am really humbled by your pristine logic.
Truly, the Jews suffered less under Hitler than Poor You do every day from our liberal, intolerant, fascist ways….
I personally wouldn’t go that far. Jews were slaughtered by the millions by the National Socialist Workers Party. You remember them. They were the party that rose to power by staging class warfare and promising the common folk that they would rise up and take over the evil industrialists. They promised the empty ideas of Hope and Change and since the National Socialist Workers Party controlled the media, the poor German people knew no better and they believed the leaders of the National Socialist Workers Party would give them all the things they wanted.
Funny thing: this idea of leaders that make empty promises of common people taking over is really common. Pol Pot used the exact same idea before he slaughtered more millions in Cambodia.
Hell, Jim Jones promised a total Socialist utopia in the jungles of Central America and he coined the phrase “drink the kool-aid”.
Powerful people that make great speeches that promise people unattainable results are very dangerous. Wouldn’t you agree?
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
You have told on yourself way too many times to continue denying this.
More lies.
Do you get that I really enjoy watching you and your little theater?
Of course. I know you have no purpose here that is constructive. You stated that 3 or 4 times the second day you were here.
BTW. I thought you said that I was privileged white person. Old white suthern gun-toting men like you are privileged. You have stomped on everyone that is different from you for decades. You posted about it regarding homosexuals and how blacks in atlanta took your jobs.
But seriously, everybody is really tired of you, joke. Yesterday I didn’t answer a single post from you but you posted post after post after post that were nothing but adolescent attempts at an insult.
Once again Truth speaks for all!
Called out every one of your lies and inconsistencies. You are just too stoopid to realize what you posted proved what we were stating.
Just a few minutes ago, you claimed that I would have no one to talk to and you immediately was ready to answer anything that I wrote.
~scrolling up~
Just as I thought. No post by me what-so-ever.
Say what you want, but all the insulting posts are directed to you little man;)
By Truth
June 17, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Mara
So you insulted Greeks and Gays at the same time.
Congratulations.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
And just to prove you wrong again…
Dare you to scroll up and look at the posts. I was posting from the beginning and everyone stayed.
As soon as you showed up everyone left except for who is blogging today.
Proofs in the puddin little-man.
By The Morality Show!
June 17, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
<Cue the clowns riding unicycles, balloons, confetti, and circus music.>
SOMEBODY GET SOME POWDER ON TROOOOOF’S NOSE! We’re back on the air in 30, and he’s sweating like a pig at a bratwurst party!
No! No! The monkey is for the big finale. Put it away!
By RF
June 17, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Archie- you are sooooo right about the role models, and there are plenty of them. I guess I look beyond that because so many of my kids idolize the pop stars and hip-hop stars and I want them to see someone in the public eye beyond the sports and music stars (who often aren’t the best role models, you know?) I’m in a small town where we have a high number of teenage parents where the boy assumes no responsibility for the child and too many of the male adults are in prison or just not around. We’re a little short on community models these days.
Truth- just so you know, I’m a committed Moderate who has actually been called conservative often over the years. I’m leaning left this year for many reasons which there isn’t enough space here to list. Let me assure you I never vote party lines and have perplexed many people with my changing views. I’m not liking the way the conservatives have used God to justify themselves in this decade. They’d love to go back to the glorious first half of the twentieth century, when men were men, women and minorities were servants, and the word “homosexual” was never uttered in mainstream society. Straight white males were the only ones who saw those as great times.
The US Congress has been controlled by the democrats for two years
Well dang, those pesky libruls must be pretty darn good at mucking things up if they can do it that quickly. Conservatives held Congress for how long before that? Wow, what a job they did. Rubber stamped a war budget for the glorious salvation of Iraq that has, in five years, stabilized Iraq and the Middle East how? And has, to date, cost us how much? Seems the conservative congress was well on its way to screwing up before the dems took over. I’ve enjoyed the tax cuts as much as anyone, and support most conservative tax initiatives. That said, I plain don’t like the trillions of dollars we’re in the hole right now. Did the democrats do that in two years? I think not.
You are right about Conservatives being scared. We see what has happened to the economy since the Democrats took over Congress. We are terrified. Why aren’t you?
Actually, if you check the facts, the economy was already on the verge of a downward spiral before 2006. The housing market was artificially inflated in recent years by wacky mortgages pushing up sales- most issued between 2002 and 2006. That bubble burst all over all of us by 2007. Hardly the democrats’ fault, although I blame the entire system for not seeing that one coming. The conservatively led Federal Reserve can’t seem to figure out what to do besides lower interest rates. That’s not helping much overall and actually hurting the economy. I almost cry when I see what my 403B is worth and how little anything I’m saving anywhere is making. What about the conservative Wall Street bailout to the tune of billions? Bush’s idea as I recall. What about the billions per day spent on the Iraqi war? Liberals did that? Nope. The economy seems to always take a tumble near the end of a two-term president, so I’m not surprised to see it happen. This tumble is going to take a while to fix, IMO.
As far as oil prices go, what significant impact can Congress have on that? Change conservative gas tax ratios? That’s not going to help get OPEC to increase production. It’s not like Pelosi has the power to go over and negotiate with them. It’s not the democrats’ fault that Bush seems to be sitting there like Sgt. Schultz on Hogan’s Heroes going “I see NOTHING!” The executive branch appears, note I said appears, to be handing the despots of the Middle East the exact weapon to crush the west- economic strain due to skyrocketing energy prices. I just don’t see how the balance of voting power in Congress is going to affect that beyond allowing drilling in every conceivable place we might find a barrel or two. In the long run, the liberal notion of alternative fuel and fuel economy are FINALLY getting some serious attention- and it only took thirty years!! Gas prices began going up before the balance shifted in congress. I bought my rattle-trap old Honda in ’06 before the elections to get better MPG, and drove it to the polls to vote for some of those dang libruls.
To be a liberal is to follow the guy in front of you To be a diehard member of either party basically requires following the herd, which is why I’m a committed Moderate. That lets me vote candidates and issues rather than party mantra. That way I’m not following anyone just because of party loyalty. I can’t stand the extremists on either end but I recognize the need for the ends to pull consistently against one another. It’s that push and pull that eventually brings about the compromise that most often works. Those of us in the middle also get to have the fun of tipping the scales when we feel it’s necessary. That’s always more interesting than blindly following one party or the other.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
big joke
Just as I thought. No post by me what-so-ever.
LOL!! Which you?
Again. Such a great plan. yep. I think you have fooled everybody.
Thanks for that. I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time.
Look, if you want to continue with this same nonsense, knock yourself out. But everybody knows.
You are really this dumb, aren’t you?
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Wow. What a great sermon. I think you have covered all the bases. I am really humbled by your pristine logic.
In the same post as:
Government promotion of Christianity? What a horrible thing.
And how do you feel about our schools now that all that nasty old religion has been taken away? Standards used to be the best in the world.
By RF
June 17, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
Yep. Those democrats really know how to educate our youth
Actually the current standards and testing initiatives were enacted by the conservatives. Remember— they have controlled Georgia since 1996. Our schools are in a mess because we have to give a gazillion standardized tests and spend too much of our time teaching to the doggone things- which by the way, are often invalid. We have no idea what will be tested or how, so we have to hope we get lucky and get a test that actually matches the state standards. All too often they don’t. Millions and millions are spent every year by our conservative state on testing that, in the end, isn’t accurate enough to count anyway. So if the democrats didn’t have control at the federal level until 2006 and Georgia hasn’t been liberal in a dozen years, who might we blame for the current mess? Hmmm, let me see, if I’m correct that would be, dare I say it, the conservatives?
By Copyleft
June 17, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Government promotion of Christianity? What a horrible thing.
Yes, it would be. And the fact that you don’t understand why shows how little you appreciate America OR freedom.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
Look, if you want to continue with this same nonsense, knock yourself out. But everybody knows.
Meaning you and the 18 monkeys that you take directions from in your head? I believe it.
You are too stoopid to hang with anyone on this blog. You cannot even keep the topics separated, much less understand them.
You and your redneck friends would love to return to those good ol’ days when you told everyone what to do. Sad that it will be another 2-3 generations before we are rid of your type of thinking; but it will happen. Your days are numbered and these are simply the final pangs of resistance.
Ba’-bye.
By JokesOn
June 17, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
LOL!! Which you?
Seeing as I have yet to run off crying just to come back under a new (derogatory) name ~rinse and repeat~ and have yet to ever post under another name to hide my posts; that is funny.
Thanks for that. I haven’t laughed that hard in a long time.
Really? Look down;)
On that note: Bye all, have a great day and see you tomorrow
By Truth
June 17, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
RF
You make a lot of good points. I appreciate your civility and your taking the time to write all that.
I do vote party lines. I said it earlier today, but I believe that the old school democrats, as evil as they were, did have the sense to run a capitalist economy as a positive for capitalism. I think most of those guys are gone. The democrats that are running congress now are much further left. Special interest groups are their main concern.
I had stated before that speculation was driving the economy. Now, most of the press shows on Sunday (except for Meet The Press. Really liked that guy) were talking about speculation and the adverse effect on our economy. Stock markets are driven by faith. If there is no faith that the government is going to do things that benefit capitalism, the market will show it. It is showing it now.
Iraq. Damn. Hate that war. I really hate that it has been used as such a political hammer against Bush, even though most of congress voted to go. And the lies. Holy sh*t. Here is a link to a little video that uses Traffic (the band) as the music background and says so much about how the war started. Great piece.
http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv
Unfortunately, we will never be leaving Iraq. The Democrats are telling you that we are not going to drill here but we are going to surrender most of the control of the Middle East to extremists. How hard is that to figure out? We can’t leave Iraq. Where would we get our oil? (Yes it is a war about the control of oil)
Politics in general:
I became a Republican when I was 16 because of the way the democrats were treating Blacks and the fact that they had gotten us into a much worse war than Iraq: Viet Nam. Fortunately, I was just young enough so that when Nixon did what he said he would do and pulled us out, I missed going.
I started working in the media in 1979 and quickly learned 2 things. Nothing is ever done by accident, as far as messaging is concerned and money drives it all. I began to see how much the media was controlled by democrats. Norman Lear had openly stated that he wanted to use his shows as a political tool. The news was incredibly liberal and still is. But with almost total control of the media, including the entertainment industry, a large part of the country wasn’t buying it. How absolutely lame would a mantra need to be to have the entire media become the propaganda arm of the DNC and it still isn’t taking hold?
And as I have said earlier, when an international arms dealer and economic speculator like George Soros enters a political race, supporting a specific candidate, I want to run in the opposite direction. He attempted to break the economy of France and England and even though he wasn’t completely successful, he still made billions off speculation. If a country has a strong economy, vultures like Soros can’t make a dime. If it is a weak economy, he makes billions. He supports Obama which tells me that he understands the damage that such a special interest controlled congress can do to our economy. He knows that with Obama in power, they will have free reign.
I understand your sentiment about many religious people. But don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. The democratic party is the party of media control and special interests. And the democratic party was certainly not saints in dealing with issues of rights for minorities. They claim to be, but look at how little Clinton did for gays. Look at how little he did for Blacks.
And finally. Anyone can claim anything. John Kerry promised Universal Health Care in 2004 and he was going to face a Republican Congress. Hell, Clinton couldn’t pull it off with a Democratic Congress.
All I ask is that you put the sound bites aside. Ignore the e-mail chain letters about how evil McCain is (I get the same kind of things about Obama) and look at what they are both really promising that they can or would actually do. If you take that honest look, I think you might change your mind. At least I hope you would.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
copyleft.
Yes, it would be. And the fact that you don’t understand why shows how little you appreciate America OR freedom.
Another great sermon. But you need to make them a little longer. You do that and i’ll try to learn how to appreciate America. K?
But seriously. I would be willing to bet that I travel to more foreign countries in a year than you have in your entire life. I understand exactly why I need to appreciate America and I honestly don’t think that you have any idea what freedom really is as you set there, being paid for doing a job while you spend time here.
By Truth
June 17, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
RF
I had the NEA as a client for years. I also had the GEA as a client for a short while. If you believe that the Georgia schools were in great shape before the conservatives took over, you weren’t paying attention.
State testing is not the route I would have taken. I would have taken the career ladder program that was introduced by Lamar Alexander up in Tennessee.
As far as what I was saying about the dims educating children: In 1970, Japan overtook America as having the best schools in the world. By the time the conservatives took over congress in 1992, our schools were lower than most third world countries. So who do you blame for that?
By RF
June 17, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Truth- I don’t think we can blame democrats more than republicans for the schools. I came through GA public schools in the 70’s and early 80’s and managed to get a good education. I honestly don’t think prayer or the lack thereof made any difference. I was taught by some EXTREME liberals who were still very smart, committed teachers. Career ladder? I’m yet to be totally convinced by that. I’m a teacher who loves the classroom and have for twenty years. I don’t think career ladders are the answer. I’m very, very wary of working schools like a corporate environment. It just doesn’t work well in the long run and I don’t think ever will. Kids aren’t commodities that can be turned into scholars more efficiently if we apply the right production techniques. It’s too complicated for business models to really work.
Education is simply a reflection of society in general. Look at the problems we have in this country socially and you’ll see how the schools got where they are. Education isn’t a priority in many families anymore. I blame the dems some for our situation and I blame the repubs some too. It comes down to frantically running around trying to keep up with the Japanese. I don’t think in the long run that we really want to be like them. Their stress is beginning to cause some very nasty suicide rates. As a teacher, my job was much more fun and my teaching much more successful when I didn’t have to cram so much down kids’ throats every year to cover the mind-boggling standards so we could be ready to give up WEEKS to testing. We’re pushing kids way too fast to learn way too much that they can’t digest before we shove more stuff in their brains. I feel for them and blame both parties. Schools have been in the crosshairs of way too many politicians for way too long. It’s sad that we have to duck and brace ourselves after every election to see what new, ridiculous program we’re going to have to enact or which new test we have to give. Every elected official in the last twenty years has used education to pontificate his personal politics upon and it has made it very stressful to be a teacher. Both parties are guilty there.
Has McCain mentioned any plans for NCLB? I’m waiting to hear his take on it and how he’ll change it. My vote will likely come down to that issue between the two.
By Archie
June 17, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
It comes down to frantically running around trying to keep up with the Japanese. I don’t think in the long run that we really want to be like them. Their stress is beginning to cause some very nasty suicide rates. As a teacher, my job was much more fun and my teaching much more successful when I didn’t have to cram so much down kids’ throats every year to cover the mind-boggling standards so we could be ready to give up WEEKS to testing. We’re pushing kids way too fast to learn way too much that they can’t digest before we shove more stuff in their brains. I feel for them and blame both parties. Schools have been in the crosshairs of way too many politicians for way too long.
I copied and pasted those statements because they are so true. My wife is a teacher so yes I have some bias but everything RF says in those statement is true. Also RF when Clinton was in office the “in thing” was to give teachers more money well that meant more taxes, well guess what the republican machine did, they came up with high-stakes testing and other standards, well they knew certain schools would score low or not measure up so they made teachers the villains and that justified not paying them more money thus no need to raise taxes. The general public is lead to believe public schools are so bad but I went to public schools and I have two degrees. RF these statements are true:”Schools have been in the crosshairs of way too many politicians for way too long. It’s sad that we have to duck and brace ourselves after every election to see what new, ridiculous program we’re going to have to enact or which new test we have to give. Every elected official in the last twenty years has used education to pontificate his personal politics upon and it has made it very stressful to be a teacher. Both parties are guilty there” Hey dude, I hope you don’t mind but preach!preach!
By Truth
June 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
RF
I came through the Tennessee school system, but amazingly enough, my high school was ranked in the top 50 high schools in the country. Very wealthy little town who could afford great teachers. My Jr. English teacher was from Yale. (First Black teacher I ever had) That school was a pain in the butt. Everything was so hard. College was almost a breeze.
But the county schools around there were crap. Almost all my cousins flunked out of college because they simply weren’t prepared.
As far as the democrats vs the republicans, democrats ran the South for most of my life. I do hold them responsible for the problems in education in the South, but I will certainly admit that they had challenges that no other part of the country had.
Integration of horribly educated Blacks into an already marginal system sure didn’t help. My school offered the integrated Blacks a special program where they could atay after school and be tutored until they caught up. The city had been spending no money on their school while mine was hiring Yale grads. The Black schools were horrible.
My Black friends hated it, but their parents made them do it. I had two good Black friends and one is now a doctor and the other is a very successful attorney. Education works, for everybody.
Career Ladder. It isn’t perfect. Tennessee still has schools that suck. Any system has to be constantly morphing, but education is so bureaucratically ran that changes take a long time. Most programs are not designed to change … ever.
I think the answer is much more funding of the worst schools first and the best schools last. That would take a complete revamping of the tax system, but in 12 years, we could change the world. The good schools are waaaay over funded. My kid’s computer lab was replaced every year.
I visited schools in South Georgia that had one old computer in the entire school for the kids to use. (I think it is a little better now) The kids from rich parents in Sandy Springs was better educated. What a surprise. Not educating poor kids is something that both of the damn, worthless political parties refuse to address.
Money doesn’t solve all problems, but more teachers would mean smaller classrooms. I substituted a little in college and the one thing I remember was the disparages between the smart kids and the dumb kids. And of course they were in the same class. The smart kids were amazing. it was like driving a Ferrari. Just a little gas and the kid would just take off. Smart kids just injest information. I understand why you would love your job.
Sorry to stick this up at 5 o’clock. Talk to you soon.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this
Truth -
Maybe you should make a list of your demands. Tell me what I can and cannot discuss.
Frankly, I don’t give a tinker’s damnation about what you want to discuss. I just find it highly amusing that you can’t seem to have any discussion without bringing up the right’s favorite bogeymen, Al Gore, George Soros, and MoveOn
As Count Floyd would say, “oooooo … scary”
The use of them is nothing more than a spluttering right-wing cliche, but, hey, if that’s all you got, that’s all you got.
No. The subject was about how liberals push their agenda onto others, exactly what happened with the FCA.
Yep, and your example that prayer isn’t allowed in school anymore has been proven incorrect. Case. Closed.
The FCA still exists all over Orange County - and, by the by, Orange County is RED. Red-red-red … it is one of the most conservative areas of California - so it’s safe to assume the school district is, as well. So before you start attributing this to Dems, try looking at the makeup of the area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OrangeCounty,California#Politics
By Mitchell
June 18, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
From now on could the AJC just print what the woman on the left has to say and then indicate that the ugly woman on the right is about to say something simplistic, narrow-minded and retarded?
By Truth
June 18, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
RF
I didn’t get to this last night. This is McCain’s page about education that is from his website: http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ce50b5-daa8-4795-b92d-92bd0d985bca.htm
Apparently, he wants to concentrate on school choice. I understand that an educator will not like that, but the parents of a gifted student going to a crappy school would. As I said before, the schools need to be made much more equal. Bad schools need to be brought up to standard. Every year that we are not doing this, we produce more adults that will spend a frustrating life, always trying to catch up.
I have always believed that the Great Society was nothing more than a way for democrats to secure a permanent voting block, which is pretty much the case. Of course we now know that the damage that system has done to our inner cities and a large part of the African American population is horrible and will take generations to repair, even if actions are taken immediately.
When the Northern Republicans were demanding integration, the southern democrats were building these huge housing projects that would completely segregate the Black population from the White population. They knew that with that many poor people in one place, that the schools were going to be segregated and horribly underfunded. They also set up a welfare system that made it very profitable to have out of wedlock children and also made it almost impossible for any individual to escape the welfare system. And small job would terminate any substantial aid.
The democrats set up a system that would produce what we have today: blind loyalty from a very poor and poorly educated part of our popullation. They got what they wanted. It has distroyed our inner cities and the damage to the Black population is extreme. The statistics are staggering.
So do I believe that the democrats are responsible for the horrible educational standards of the south? After giving it more thought last night while taking my nightly walk by a couple of 60s era ghetto housing projects I would say DEFINATELY.
By LaughoftheDay
June 18, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
DEFINATELY? for definitely?
sounds like education wasn’t so great years ago either.
By Truth
June 18, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The use of them is nothing more than a spluttering right-wing cliche, but, hey, if that’s all you got, that’s all you got.
And you know as well as I do that I spent the whole day redirecting you back to the subject at hand which was that liberals force their beliefs on others, a point that you only fortified as the day continued.
That was the discussion. You desperately kept trying to make it about a specific issue, prayer in school. No matter how many times that I listed FACTS, you still resorted to your hysterical rantings about me personally. You didn’t answer a single question I asked and you didn’t address a single fact I listed. In fact, you discussed how liberals forced the elimination of wearing of specific piece of jewelry, while praising such a fascist decision. Those kinds of decisions are exactly what I was talking about. But because it was not about prayer in schools. CASE CLOSED.
The discussion wasn’t closed because you couldn’t prove your lame, untrue point that liberals do not force their beliefs on others, no matter how hard you tried to force me to accept it. Get it?
Maybe you and the big joke can get your battle plan together today. Which one will go hysterical. Which names you will call me, how you can twist whatever I say to fit your accusation, you know the normal stuff. I have some money to make. Have a great day.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
When the Northern Republicans were demanding integration, the southern democrats were building these huge housing projects that would completely segregate the Black population from the White population
Northern Republicans???? Northerners, yes. but, considering the vast majority of Northerners have vote blue, where did these hordes of Northern Republicans come from?
And, as for “segregation through housing projects” - you travel, Truth - you should know better. Housing projects are a part of every major (and minor) city - not just the southern ones. Or the blue ones, for that matter.
By Truth
June 18, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Jokeoftheday
Thanks for agreeing with the rest of the post. If the only problem you have is with a typo, then you must have agreed. Finally some sanity and logic comes to this gulag.
Again, thanks.
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
The discussion wasn’t closed because you couldn’t prove your lame, untrue point that liberals do not force their beliefs on others, no matter how hard you tried to force me to accept it.
Typical. Truth posts an inane point. We counter with point and url. Truth freaks out. Truth then changes/merges premises and claims we are off topic.
LOL!
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
Truth -
That was the discussion. You desperately kept trying to make it about a specific issue, prayer in school. No matter how many times that I listed FACTS, you still resorted to your hysterical rantings about me personally.
Personally?? laughing at your arguments isn’t personal, dearest. laughing at your hair, sartorial style or taste in music is personal. laughing at your arguments is not.
As for prayer in school, that was YOUR example - not mine. YOU brought that up as an illustration of how we meanies on the left force our beliefs on others. I showed you that’s erroneous as kids can still pray. You brought up the FCA and we all brought down that example, as well.
You didn’t answer a single question I asked and you didn’t address a single fact I listed.
What questions? What facts did I not address?
In fact, you discussed how liberals forced the elimination of wearing of specific piece of jewelry, while praising such a fascist decision. Those kinds of decisions are exactly what I was talking about. But because it was not about prayer in schools. CASE CLOSED
Yet another thing I find highly amusing - you seem to have no problem with an organization like the Scouts or the FCA discriminating against gays. However, when a BUSINESS (not a government organization) or a PRIVATE SCHOOL (again, not a government organization) does something you don’t like, you scream “fascism!!” Aren’t you a proponent of the FREE MARKET??? Shouldn’t these organizations be able to do as they please and you can vote with your $$$???
Like I said, I thought BA’s reasoning was silly and it probably offended more customers than a check-in women wearing a cross would, but I thought the judge’s reasoning behind letting it stand was correct. A necklace of a cross or a Star of David or a Hamsah hand is not a requirement of the religion, so prohibiting it is not discrimination.
By LaughOfTheDay
June 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
Noticing a capitalized misspelled word just above the name of the next entry can hardly be considered agreeing with a post I did not read, as I was scrolling down(ignoring your ramblings) looking for the next post OF SUBSTANCE.
You lost me weeks ago with your inability to understand that most of the Southern Democrats of years past are now REPUBLICANS.
Additionally, I myself have been to 60 countries on 4 continents, have spent 6 years outside of the good ole USA, and I agree with CopyLeft, if YOU do not see the issue with state-mandated prayer in public schools. YOU MISS the concept that is the United States of America.
By Truth
June 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
USinUk
I have about two seconds while the client is on the phone.
Liberals forced a change in the prayer in school issue.
Liberals forced a change in the FCA ruling.
Liberals forced a change in the jewelry issue.
You claimed that liberals did not force their beliefs on others. But when I presented these examples (most of these examples, anyway) you wanted to discusss the motivation and whether or not the liberal bullying was justified. Those are other issues. The original issue was whether or not the forcing a change of policy was done by liberals. Obviously it was.
Remember that the original discussion stemmed from my saying that I was sick of liberals trying to claim that others were forcing their beliefs on them when in fact, liberals are known for forcing their beliefs on others, which is exactly what I proved. You answered those charges by trying to justify why they forced their beliefs on others.
That would be the equivalent of you accusing chuck of pushing his religion on you and he answers by explaining to you how abortion is wrong. He would have proven your point for you, just like you proved my point for me.
I hope you followed this and it is readable. I don’t have time to proof read it.
By LaughOfTheDay
June 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
as Confucius say long ago:
Ignore the Insignificant
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
Truth -
But when I presented these examples (most of these examples, anyway) you wanted to discusss the motivation
in regards to prayer, no I didn’t discuss the motivation. I discussed the facts - that kids can still pray all they want on their own or in groups. they just can’t be led by a teacher. and, as I mentioned a coupla days ago, this started long before the SC took the case - by 1962, only about half of schools had teacher-led prayer because most people felt that it alienated other religions.
In regards to the FCA, you brought up the motivation when you said it was because the organization was a Christian organization. We corrected you on the school board’s motivation because your assertion was incorrect. Plus, as I noted today, the school board was more than likely conservative, not liberal, as it is in Orange County, the reddest of the California counties.
Liberals forced a change in the jewelry issue.
Liberals??? This was a company policy. To save you from scrolling, I’ll restate what I said earlier: Yet another thing I find highly amusing - you seem to have no problem with an organization like the Scouts or the FCA discriminating against gays. However, when a BUSINESS (not a government organization) or a PRIVATE SCHOOL (again, not a government organization) does something you don’t like, you scream “fascism!!” Aren’t you a proponent of the FREE MARKET??? Shouldn’t these organizations be able to do as they please and you can vote with your $$$???
BA is not some liberal group - this was a company policy.
(I) was sick of liberals trying to claim that others were forcing their beliefs on them when in fact, liberals are known for forcing their beliefs on others
Lastly, what belief are we meanie liberals forcing on you? Please name it - because the only belief I can see is the separation of Church and State … and that’s not “our” belief, that’s a basic tenet of the Founding Fathers.
So, if that’s the one you mean, YES. I stand proudly and state loudly that I do try to force my belief in this basic building block of the United States. Guilty as charged.
Do I get a cookie?
By Talibangical
June 18, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
I agree with Truth. May all you liberals burn in hell for enforcing your belief that I should not force my religion on others. I want to force my beliefs on others! I want to! I want to! You golldarn liberals keep getting in the way. BURN! BURN! DIE AND BURN YOU GODLESS LIBS!
<The opinions of this poster are based purely on logic and fact, not senseless emotion like those golldarn liberals use. Any inconsistency between my beliefs and facts are the fault of Bill Clinton, George Soros, or Al Gore, who should all burn in hell for making the fact disagree with me.>
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
USinUK,
Truth rarely get down to the meat of his point. His true point keeps resurfacing as “the government should promote Christianity as the national religion” and all the aspects that go with it.
It is what he started with the first day he was here and is the theme he keeps returning to.
I will give him credit for one thing: he seems to know that his real argument is extremely dated and outright wrong. He worms around the real premise while just causing trouble.
By Truth
June 18, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
No personal attacks.
Then Laughoftheday shows up. Never met this person before, but oddly enough, they immediately launch into a personal attack.
Then, as crazy as it seems, the very next poster after laughoftheday is the big joke who hadn’t posted to that point. Who would have thunk it?
the big joke posts yet another barely intelligible post that somehow equates him with actually participating in yesterday’s discussion while trying to remain calm and collected.
Then laughoftheday shows back up (Never saw that one coming) with more personal attack hysteria.
Yep joke.
You have everybody fooled.
You are indeed, as Jethro Bodine would say, a double naught spy.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
Jokes -
he seems to know that his real argument is extremely dated and outright wrong. He worms around the real premise while just causing trouble
that’s why you have to look at it as an endurance workout, not necessarily one for strength or agility. it’s a slog, but it helps to train your focus.
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
You are indeed, as Jethro Bodine would say, a double naught spy.
Paranoia anyone?
Add that to denial, projection, sexual shame, and compulsive lying requiring almost every chapter of the DSMIIV to help you.
You have no argument. You simply have a knack at making your cries for the waaaambulance sound like talking points….for a post or two.
Smile little man, you still have hope.
By Gandalf, the Grey
June 18, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
EXPAT: Algore is the Devil! Want proof? He did create the Internet(to spread porn), and he global warming (so he can be more comfortable here on Earth). He pollutes while preachin’conserve, he is the father of lies. He is the anti-christ’s ally and friend(of course that is Mr. NOBAMA hisself). MY FACTS ARE, AS ALWAYS, BEYOND REPROACH! LOOK IT UP!
By Gandalf, the Grey
June 18, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
Mitchell: Both you and your two daddies are bat smokers and Pole pumpers!
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
GtG -
He did create the Internet(to spread porn)
you mean, that’s a bad thing???
;-)
By Truth
June 18, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I apologize for the BA decision confusion.
Liberals forced a change in the prayer policy in public schools. That was my point. Yes, they could still pray considering liberals have not yet figured out how to control other’s thoughts. They could think the prayer, but they could not say them out loud, at least in the classroom.
My point with the FCA was that they were forced to leave campus by a liberal policy that BECAME enacted when liberals started forcing their beliefs on others.
Separation of Church and State has been taken to an unrealistic extreme. Issues that prevent the disrespect of one person often disrespects the views of hundreds or thousands of others.
Separation of Church and State is drafted in the Bill of Rights to uphold the original basic right in the Constitution of free religion. It is not to force the erasure of religion from our culture. Taking a public display of prayer and forcing it to be withheld from the public view is doing exactly that. Whether or not a person has different rights of religion on public or private property is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
Nowhere in the Constitution is ever mentioned the idea of hurting someone’s feelings. How many times has the issue of feelings come up in your posts about this? If my freedom to worship hurts someone’s feelings, the Constitution guarantees my right to worship as I please. And that right SHOULD supersede over that person’s feelings, at least that was the original idea.
Little Jacob’s feelings are hurt because many, many others around him are practicing their right to free religion. So everyone’s rights are taken away so Jabob’s feelings aren’t hurt? Assign a teacher’s aid to take Jacob and others like him away from the others for those few minutes. TEACH him that his rights to religion (or lack of any religion) is just as important as anyone else’s. But to take away everyone else’s rights? Baby? Bathwater?
Look I understand that a liberal, such as yourself is not going to even attempt to understand what I am saying. Your point of view, with the aid of a media that has been no less than the propaganda arm for the DNC since 1968, has bullied and forced your views into the very courts of this country. The effects on our society have been staggering.
You claim that I use conservative sayings all the time. There’s one that I seldom use that usually shuts down any conversation. This is it:
How’s that working out for you?
Come back to Atlanta and lets take a walk through the Great Society ghettos that produces the thugs that commit the vast majority of local crime. Let’s look at the educational system that the democrats set up for those people. Lets look at the financial incentives for the worst of behavior. Let’s look at what the eradication of that evil word: “family” has done to them.
And yes, they did it in the North, too. And it had the exact same horrible results.
Forcing your policies into law has succeeded. Religion is almost gone from our public culture and it is completely gone from our public education.
So how’s that working out for you?
By Truth
June 18, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
USinUK
BTW, That was lunch. We ordered in Sushi. Chop sticks in one hand and typing with the other. Pretty good one handed rant, huh?
I wanted them to order in from Mary Macs just to p** you off. LOL!
By Gandalf, the Grey
June 18, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this
EXPAT: Not all from the father of lies is bad, it’s just all a lie.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
Truth -
Yes, they could still pray considering liberals have not yet figured out how to control other’s thoughts.
yes. because we’re all JUST. THAT. EVIL. (pronounced EEEEE-veeel).
Separation of Church and State is drafted in the Bill of Rights to uphold the original basic right in the Constitution of free religion. It is not to force the erasure of religion from our culture. Taking a public display of prayer and forcing it to be withheld from the public view is doing exactly that. Whether or not a person has different rights of religion on public or private property is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
Please show me one lawsuit where people have sued over a religious display on private property. Just one (and it has to be because the display is religious, not because it conflicts with zoning or some such).
As far as religious displays on PUBLIC property, that is considered government sponsorship of religion. That’s not me saying that - that’s the Supreme Court saying it. Repeatedly. I’m sorry that you don’t like that decision, but that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. As for the FFs reason for the separation: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” (Little Jamie Madison).
He also said, “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
If religion is REALLY that important to you, Truth, don’t you WANT it to be kept pure? Don’t you WANT it to remain uncontaminated by government and politics?
Nowhere in the Constitution is ever mentioned the idea of hurting someone’s feelings. How many times has the issue of feelings come up in your posts about this?
Precisely once. And I was talking about myself being denigrated for being a Catholic. BA used it as their justification for their decision - I said I thought it was silly.
Forcing your policies into law has succeeded. Religion is almost gone from our public culture and it is completely gone from our public education. So how’s that working out for you?
For me, it’s working out just fine that children in southern schools who are NOT SoBaps are allowed to pray in their own way or not at all in the classroom. For me, it’s working out just fine that religion is left to the churches, synagogues, mosques and ashrams around the country - that’s where preaching/proselytizing belongs. For me, it’s working out just fine, THANK YOU, that religion is seen as a personal choice and not a government institution.
Freedom. That’s working out for me JUST FINE.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
Truth -
I wanted them to order in from Mary Macs just to p* you off. LOL!*
now, that’s just mean.
By HeeHaw
June 18, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
*He did create the Internet(to spread porn)
you mean, that’s a bad thing???*
of course it is a bad thing, we have heard it right here, from Truth himself:
all porn is child porn.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
GtG -
Is there a rota for Most EEEEEvil Dem?? It seems to change, is why I ask … I was thinking it was a daily thing that rotates among: Jimmy Carter, George Soros, Al Gore, Bill/Hillary (they share a slot), MoveOn, Nancy Pelosi, and DailyKos???
More to the point, what do I have to do to get on the list???
By Mara
June 18, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
Separation of Church and State is drafted in the Bill of Rights to uphold the original basic right in the Constitution of free religion. It is not to force the erasure of religion from our culture. Taking a public display of prayer and forcing it to be withheld from the public view is doing exactly that. Whether or not a person has different rights of religion on public or private property is mentioned nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
it seems to me that Truth’s gripe isn’t so much that “christians can’t pray in public” as it is “christians can no longer count on public resources supporting their practice of religion” and “some private companies have policies that don’t cater to the religious”.
look back at his arguments and that’s how it all falls out.
what he seems to not understand, willfully I believe, is that public displays of religiosity ARE perfectly acceptable. The “seperation” is not there to prevent public worship, it’s to prevent the government (in any of it’s manifestations) or it’s representatives from giving any religion preferential treatment.
He’s mad because liberals have forced “the state” to quit giving preference and public resources to christians. In his world, “equality” doesn’t actually mean equal. It means the majority gets to do as they please and the minority has to sit and take it. Anything else would be discrimination against the majority.
By Mara
June 18, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
USinUK - Is there a rota for Most EEEEEvil Dem?? It seems to change, is why I ask … I was thinking it was a daily thing that rotates among: Jimmy Carter, George Soros, Al Gore, Bill/Hillary (they share a slot), MoveOn, Nancy Pelosi, and DailyKos???
you forgot Michael Moore, the ACLU, the French, and San Francisco.
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
Mara,
He’s mad because liberals have forced “the state” to quit giving preference and public resources to christians. In his world, “equality” doesn’t actually mean equal. It means the majority gets to do as they please and the minority has to sit and take it. Anything else would be discrimination against the majority.
What he does not understand or want to understand is that because of the first settlers issues with England, the legal system and the government in general leans towards minorities. It was purposefully set up that way because in a totally even world the majority will be able to influence the government and peoples freedoms. That is why a magazine like Ebony, but Ivory would never exist or be legal.
By Mara
June 18, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
Jokes - what law would make having a magazine called “Ivory” illegal? Even the white supremacists are allowed to have a newsletter…
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Jokes - what law would make having a magazine called “Ivory” illegal? Even the white supremacists are allowed to have a newsletter…
From my poli-sci days it was explained that you can have a publication, but cannot perform discrimination.
Maybe a newsletter is held at a different standard than a formal publication? (checking..)
By Mara
June 18, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
it might be illegal to withhold sale or subscriptions of “Ivory Magazine” because the customer isn’t “ivory colored”, but i don’t believe the government can specifically criminalize the production of such a magazine. That would be a blatant violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution…freedom of speech, as well as freedom of the press.
FYI - according to Wiki there is at least ONE racist publication, “National Vanguard”, and a book publisher for the same kind of product. I would think that as offensive as their views are, the government could NOT bar them from broadcasting them.
By RF
June 18, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Truth- here’s my take on government at this point. I read in Reader’s Digest years ago: If pro and con are opposites, then is congress the opposite of progress? Rhetorical question, of course!
I have to challenge a bit on the northern republicans and southern democrats and integration of schools. That was fought by racists on both sides of the political fence. Housing projects were built for all the poor, which at one time included whites. In Atlanta there were many white residents at one time (I had family members living in them at times). That balance shifted as poverty numbers among African-Americans increased and many whites moved out of poverty. Whites always had it easier moving out of poverty, due again to racism and more job opportunities. We wouldn’t have had to have affirmative action if racism hadn’t been pervasive throughout our society in employment. It’s a bit of an overgeneralization to blame one party or the other for the racial polarization that followed integration. There were just as many avowed republicans as democrats involved in the continued discrimination against African-Americans economically and socially in the latter half of the 20th century. As a moderate, I can see the blame both parties take for the state of minorities in this country. That attitude has roots equally in both parties, IMO. None of the solutions designed by either party has really helped end poverty or the mindset that comes with generational poverty. Georgia’s situation hasn’t changed one bit despite a decided shift to conservatives in the state government.
You made some good points about education and money yesterday. Funding for poorer districts has been a hot button issue in Georgia of late. The poorer systems (I’m in one of them) have much, much less in the way of technology, most of which comes from local budgets. We’re currently dealing with only ONE lab for a school of 1100 and the computers are aging fast. We have 100 or so laptops in mobile carts (well, not counting the ones out for repair) that are temperamental and cause a huge waste of class time unloading, signing out, and putting back on the cart each period. They all need new batteries and you’re basically screwed if your room doesn’t have enough outlets to plug in the power adapters. We’re fortunate compared to many districts in the farther reaches of the state.
School choice is a short-term fix for a big problem that has to do with resources, attracting and keeping good teachers, and connecting with communities to increase involvement in schools and focus on education. In the end, school choice will be used to further divide the races. I see it as a thinly veiled attempt to segregate the poor even more, giving them even less choice and hope for quality schools. What about districts like mine where there is only one middle and high school?
Think about your earlier comparison to Japan for a moment. Comparing our math scores to theirs is a bit like comparing dogs to cats. Japan has a very, very homogenous population. As of 2004, only about 1% of their population was registered non-Japanese citizens. Within their education system, not every student even makes it to high school. They test kids to determine placement in what we call high school. Only those who will likely become college graduates make it, and it is HIGHLY competitive. There is a cultural OCD nature about education that drives children there to excel. That is sooooo different from here!! If you take the top ten percent or so of each population group in our country and compare those groups individually to the same percentage of Japanese students, then you might have a statistically relevant comparison- and a much different result than we currently see. But even then the cultural emphasis on education and natural propensity to math would still skew the scores beyond relevant comparison. Unfortunately the media and many researchers overlook the obvious problems of such a comparison. We can’t catch up with Japan considering the diversity of our population and the fact that we educate all children in our country. The furor and fear generated by test scores, I believe, has been fueled for the last 25 years by the publication of a report titled “A Nation at Risk” in 1983 which painted an awful statistical performance picture of the USA and propelled education to the top of every politician’s list. That report has come under fire in recent years for its blatant misinterpretation of data and failure to consider population statistics accurately in its comparison of countries. I saw firsthand how it changed education in this country as a new teacher in the late 80’s and created the panic mode over test scores. 25 years later the numbers don’t show any significant change, again not considering population shifts, significant additions to curricula, and increasing frequency of testing.
Fear and misleading statistics are powerful weapons for elections and get votes. Bush heralded himself as the “education President” and look what he gave us- the unbelievable mess NCLB, which is ironically leaving more children behind than ever before as it attempts to turn a heterogeneous population of children into the robotic homogeneity of countries like Japan. I’ll stop preaching on that now- my hands will cramp up in a minute!! LOL
We have needs and issues in education that reflect the needs and issues of our ever-changing society as a whole. We’re learning as we go and getting better at a lot of things despite what statistics may show. I remember reading once that “you can torture numbers and they’ll say anything you want them to say.” Being on the inside, I see more than just numbers on a list as we strive to educate every child. Sometimes we get it right, despite what you read in the papers. Additionally, we are one of the only nations right now that is really dealing with our diversity and trying to teach them all. Aren’t you glad I can’t be on all day? The server at AJC couldn’t handle all the posting I could do on education!!
Sorry for the long post. I have to catch up from the morning!
By JokesOn
June 18, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
FYI - according to Wiki there is at least ONE racist publication, “National Vanguard”, and a book publisher for the same kind of product. I would think that as offensive as their views are, the government could NOT bar them from broadcasting them.
Production is different from discriminating against people employed by the magazine. I am having a hard time even finding the topic discussed and work is getting busy. May have to revisit the issue when time frees up here.
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Mara -
you forgot Michael Moore, the ACLU, the French, and San Francisco
the French aren’t EEEEEEvil, just annoying (WHYohwhy does their food have to be so good!!!???)
and it’s okay if the right hates SF - that just makes it a better city for the rest of us!!
By RF
June 18, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
and it’s okay if the right hates SF - that just makes it a better city for the rest of us
considering they’re allowing gay marriages in California, I’d say the whole state will soon be verboten to the extreme conservatives. Well, at least we know where the Southern Baptists will say Hell is located! Here’s a joke I heard once. A man died and went to Heaven. St. Peter was giving him a tour and the man noticed how different areas had slightly different looks. When he asked, St. Peter explained:”well, let’s see. This is the Lutheran Heaven here, and that is the Methodist, and over there is the Anglican…” and so on. Finally they stopped beside a thick towering wall and the man asked,”what’s behind the wall?” St. Peter replied, “shhhh, that’s the Southern Baptists. They think they’re the only ones here!”
By USinUK
June 18, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
RF -
St. Peter replied, “shhhh, that’s the Southern Baptists. They think they’re the only ones here!”
that reminds me of the joke “what’s the difference between a SoBap and a Methodist?”
A Methodist will acknowledge you when you see him in the liquor store.
Man, SF is such a fantastic city - beautiful scenery, great people, outstanding food and entertainment … if it weren’t for those pesky earthquakes, it’d be perfect!! :-)
By Gandalf, the Grey
June 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
EXPAT: Would be hard to get on the list right now, you would have to:
I hope none of those are appealing to you, but if they are, jump on the list for a day or so!
By Truth
June 19, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
By USinUK
Please show me one lawsuit where people have sued over a religious display on private property. Just one (and it has to be because the display is religious, not because it conflicts with zoning or some such).
Please show me in the constitution where it defines public property as an area where religious freedoms are denied.
As far as religious displays on PUBLIC property, that is considered government sponsorship of religion.
Please show me in the Constitution where it says that. Now I’m sure you are going to just dismiss this as “it was decided in a ruling”, but magical constitutional decisions about things that are not in the constitution is the problem. Once two common people like you and I cannot read the reasons for a constitutional decision in the courts, the government falls to fascist who can do anything they want and just tell us that the issue is simply too complicated for common people to understand. That’s what we have now. I am asking you to explain their decision. I understand that you can’t because no one can. It is a fascist decision.
That’s not me saying that - that’s the Supreme Court saying it. Repeatedly. I’m sorry that you don’t like that decision, but that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong.
They are absolutely wrong. Basing the legality of a person’s religious rights on where he is standing is never mentioned in the constitution and their decision is based solely on that premise. I am not like you. I will not accept a decision because I am told to do so. If you do have another reason to support the decision, like perhaps proof in the constitution of the existence of a reference to freedom of religion being limited to certain areas, please present it. If you can’t, you can’t defend it either. And if that is the case, why do you support it?
As for the FFs reason for the separation: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” (Little Jamie Madison).
The definition of the separation of church and state is not the eradication of religion from our culture. And I would promise that Little Jamie Madison would have nothing to do with the heavy handed fascism that has insisted that freedom of religion be relegated to back rooms and for people to set in silence.
If religion is REALLY that important to you, Truth,
By “Religion” if you mean a person’s freedom to worship how and where he pleases, Yea. Me and the pilgrims. You remember Plymouth Rock? It was real important to them. So why isn’t it important to you?
don’t you WANT it to be kept pure? Don’t you WANT it to remain uncontaminated by government and politics?
Being forced into hiding and relegating freedom of religion to specified areas is only pure fascism. There is nothing pure, there is nothing clean, there is nothing but one domineering group of people who would not rest until our basic rights as Americans were taken from us by a fascist court in a ruling that they nor you can justify.
Precisely once. And I was talking about myself being denigrated for being a Catholic. BA used it as their justification for their decision - I said I thought it was silly.
But isn’t that the whole point? A single kid’s feelings supersede an entire group’s freedom to worship how THEY choose, not what you would allow them to do? If that is not the point, what is the point? If all you have is that illegal fascist court ruling, you have nothing: that is of course unless you can show me where freedom of religion is delegated in the Constitution to only being protected within certain physical property boundaries. I have read the Constitution. I can save you the trouble. It ain’t there.
For me, it’s working out just fine that children in southern schools who are NOT SoBaps are allowed to pray in their own way or not at all in the classroom.
Of course it is working out just fine for you. You live 3,000 miles from the children of the great society who daily roam through our neighborhoods, looking for something to steal. They do that because they can’t read their own name, thanks to the educational system and the permanent segregation the racist democrats put in place. I’m sure you are doing just fine.
The problem is the older African Americans who were abused by racist white democrats when they were young and are now victims of crime that is committed on them by the ignorant thugs the democrats continue to breed as a permanent voting block. I’m sure you are doing just fine. They aren’t doing so well, especially considering most are raising children of mothers that are girls and daddys that are gone. But there is no family structure and that was certainly a goal of the democrats that drafted the welfare system that was called the Great Society. That nasty word: family. That’s a Conservative word. Nasty word.
Nope, they are not doing too well. So I guess the question is not How is that working out for a White woman that is living 3,000 from the effects of the failed democratic policies, but how is it working out for the people who have to deal with those horrible effects on a daily basis. That is the question. I just see those effects and it is bad enough. I couldn’t imagine living in the middle of it.
For me, it’s working out just fine that religion is left to the churches, synagogues, mosques and ashrams around the country - that’s where preaching/proselytizing belongs.
I understand that is definitely what you believe and as we all know, what a liberal believes is the only way. Yes-sah-re. We will be over here in our private buildings that you have decided was our only place of worship. We really appreciate you allowing us to pray inside. We were taught to pray whenever we felt a prayer was needed, but don’t worry, we wouldn’t want your feelings to be hurt so believe me, you will never even know we are praying. Wouldn’t want to hurt your feelings.
For me, it’s working out just fine, THANK YOU, that religion is seen as a personal choice and not a government institution.
We prayed in schools from 1776 until the 1960s. So you believe that religion was a government institution until the all-wise liberals were able to step in and save us from ourselves after 200 years of doing it wrong. I see. The arrogance is astounding.
Freedom. That’s working out for me JUST FINE.
Whenever one group of fascist force their beliefs on others, I’m sure they have always called it a matter of freedom. Freedom for the fascist. To hell with what anyone else wants. That’s why it is called fascism.
You said this to the big joke yesterday:
that’s why you have to look at it as an endurance workout, not necessarily one for strength or agility. it’s a slog, but it helps to train your focus.
That’s a typical liberal. You think if you can yell long enough and if several of you can yell long enough, If you can ignore obvious facts and common sense long enough, and twist what others say and use stereotypes for personal attacks, no matter how little truth, facts or logic is involved in your position, the evil people who dare to think differently will be punished enough so they will eventually capitulate and think exactly like you and the people around you.
Does that ever really work?
By JokesOn
June 19, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
That’s a typical liberal. You think if you can yell long enough and if several of you can yell long enough, If you can ignore obvious facts and common sense long enough, and twist what others say and use stereotypes for personal attacks, no matter how little truth, facts or logic is involved in your position, the evil people who dare to think differently will be punished enough so they will eventually capitulate and think exactly like you and the people around you.
Does that ever really work?
Pro-jec-tion;)
By Truth
June 19, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
UsinUK
BTW. That all knowing SCOTUS that you believe justifies the elimination of religous freedoms also ruled that slavery wsa constitutional for almost 100 years. They ruled that abortions were illegal for almost 200 years. They ruled that segregation was constitutional for almost 200 years.
So while the rulings were in favor of slavery, you obviously thought that those silly old slaves that tried to escape and dare to defy the SCOTUS were wrong. Right?
Those supreme court decisions… I’m so glad you put so much credence in them.
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this
Ahhhh, Truth, I knew you wouldn’t let me down … first, you refuse to answer my challenge by redirecting with another question:
Please show me in the constitution where it defines public property as an area where religious freedoms are denied.
It’s called the Framers’ Intent and it’s used by the Supreme Court all the time:
“Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform” (Madison, Annals of Congress, 1789).
and
“Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?” (Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance)
(James Madison, just in case you were unaware, was, with Thomas Jefferson, the other key author of the Constition - so his words carry just a smidge of weight.)
That’s why you can’t have a nativity or a menorrah on government land - it’s establishing a religion and compelling others to conform. Which also applies (even more so) for school prayer.
By “Religion” if you mean a person’s freedom to worship how and where he pleases … Being forced into hiding and relegating freedom of religion to specified areas is only pure fascism.
Forced into hiding, are we??? Yeah, I have SUCH a hard time finding any Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbytarian, Unitarian, Church of God, Quaker (meeting houses), and Episcopalian churches whenever I’m in town … (not to mention, synagogues). And, god knows, I’ve NEVER seen anyone pray before a meal when I’ve gone to a Shoneys breakfast. And, heavens, I’ve never seen the Marietta Daily Journal dedicate their entire Easter edition to the role of religion in our lives. And, gosh, Monica Kaufman never talks about Christmas services and Passover in the news. And, BOY, do I miss people putting large, lit nativity displays on their front lawns.
Yeah, religiosity is in hiding like a fat man in a Hawaiian print shirt.
You and your children are free to pray anywhere you want. Just not led by a government employee.
A single kid’s feelings supersede an entire group’s freedom to worship how THEY choose, not what you would allow them to do?
A single child’s feelings? No, but a single kids RIGHTS do. That single kid has the right to worship as he chooses (OR NOT AT ALL) without being subject to a government-led prayer.
You live 3,000 miles from the children of the great society who daily roam through our neighborhoods, looking for something to steal
yes. and this happened ONLY after prayer was taken out of school. prior to 1962, all was well in the world. girls never got pregnant out of wedlock and everyone was law-abiding.
So I guess the question is not How is that working out for a White woman that is living 3,000 from the effects of the failed democratic policies, but how is it working out for the people who have to deal with those horrible effects on a daily basis. That is the question. I just see those effects and it is bad enough. I couldn’t imagine living in the middle of it
well, you were the one who asked the question trying to be a smart*.
and, these people you are SOOOO concerned about (aw, diddums!) - how well did they fare with a GOP administration between 2000 and 2006??? did minority pregnancies decline? did fewer minority fathers walk out??? you think your team is so much better for the non-white population, why were pregnancies among minority girls on the rise? why has the rate of poverty increased? YOUR team was in charge - why weren’t things better? and if YOUR team is SO. MUCH. BETTER. for the non-white man, why don’t they vote for you??? I don’t think they’re stupid - I think they see the GOP exactly for what it is - and who it benefits.
and it ain’t the working class.
So you believe that religion was a government institution until the all-wise liberals were able to step in and save us from ourselves after 200 years of doing it wrong. I see. The arrogance is astounding.
as I said for the last few days, the 1962 case was NOT an isolated case - prayer was removed from schools since the 1800s because minority religious groups were being alienated.
And, yes, sometimes people DO need to step in and say that things are being done wrong … the abolitionists did it … the suffragettes did … the civil rights leaders did it. Personally, I’m happy to be in that company.
That’s why it is called fascism
And you think that, if you use the same word often enough, that will make it applicable. Liberation, yes. But, fascism (a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism) - not so much.
Lastly, use stereotypes for personal attacks
no, dearest one … that’s right out of YOUR playbook.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this
the big joke
See. It isn’t as much fun when you don’t come on as a hysterical little bit*h hiding behind the clever name d’jour is it?
The only question is whether or not you resort to your double naught spy persona. So can you control your emotions for a whole day or not. We will see.
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
Truth -
Those supreme court decisions… I’m so glad you put so much credence in them
gosh. it sounds like I love my country more than you do, Truth. Maybe YOU should be the one to leave since you evidently hate America so much.
By JokesOn
June 19, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
It’s called the Framers’ Intent and it’s used by the Supreme Court all the time:
Maybe, just maybe we get our notions also from this definition….I know. It is crazy talk!
Democracy is a system of government by which political sovereignty is retained by the people and either exercised directly by citizens or through their elected representatives. It is derived from the Greek δημοκρατία ([dimokratia] (help·info)), “popular government”[1] which was coined from δήμος (dēmos), “people” and κράτος (kratos), “rule, strength” in the middle of the 5th century BC to denote the political systems then existing in some Greek city-states, notably Athens.[2]
In political theory, democracy describes a small number of related forms of government and also a political philosophy. Even though there is no universally accepted definition of ‘democracy’,[3] there are two principles that any definition of democracy is required to have. The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power and the second that all members enjoy universally recognised freedoms and liberties.
Doesn’t really sound like what The Truth would like to turn america into and is directly opposed to.
By JokesOn
June 19, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
See. It isn’t as much fun when you don’t come on as a hysterical little bith hiding behind the clever name d’jour is it?*
Just like all your fail premises, repeating it won’t make it true.
And lets not forget who has repeatedly posted under different names, little man.
Facts are facts: You like the current fascist regime. You speak out against gay rights. You speak out against black rights and the wrongs done to them. You endorse a state run religion. You promote illegal/unregulated porn sites. You throw a tantrum when people do not agree with you. You call names directly and through your name. You condescend others beliefs. You cannot and will not stay on topic. You avoid direct questions posed to you. You have stated your purpose here is to create chaos. You have stated that you enjoy belittling people.
All childish behavior by a little man.
By Archie
June 19, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
RF, that 3:27 pm post yesterday was very interesting to read and I read every word of it. There was a time when I wanted to meet JBM, well now I want to meet you RF. You sound like you care about what you’re doing and you care about the country. RF you are the kind of blogger the internet needs period because so many bloggers just spout off sexist,racist, or generally nasty comments. I can go to any sports website blog and see any number of racist comments to the point that they’re useless but I learned something from your 3:27 post from yesterday.
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
Joke -
The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power and the second that all members enjoy universally recognised freedoms and liberties
Truth would just like the freedoms and liberties to be universally recognized for some people more than others, that’s all …
4 legs good.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
By USinUK
Ahhhh, Truth, I knew you wouldn’t let me down … first, you refuse to answer my challenge by redirecting with another question:
The question was irrelevant without proof that the actions of the SCOTUS was legal. It isn’t.
It’s called the Framers’ Intent and it’s used by the Supreme Court all the time:
“Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform” (Madison, Annals of Congress, 1789).*
I know what the Constitution says. What it doesn’t say is that a person’s right to worship is decided based on geographical boundaries. The SCOTUS said that slavery was constitutional “all the time” for 100 years. How do you feel about that supreme court decision?
That’s why you can’t have a nativity or a menorrah on government land - it’s establishing a religion and compelling others to conform. Which also applies (even more so) for school prayer.
What the hell are you talking about? Let me get this straight. Are you actually saying that whenever a cross is displayed on public land that Christianity is established? Is that what you are saying? Christianity was “established” 2,000 years ago.
Forced into hiding, are we???
Oh hell no. Liberals are never hiding from anything. They don’t need to hide. Just go to that San Fran that you guys like so much. Take in a parade. Non of that nasty old praying, but lots and lots of public sex in the city that was the birth place of American HIV, but certainly non of that nasty old religion.
Yeah, I have SUCH a hard time finding any Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbytarian, Unitarian, Church of God, Quaker (meeting houses), and Episcopalian churches whenever I’m in town … (not to mention, synagogues). And, god knows, I’ve NEVER seen anyone pray before a meal when I’ve gone to a Shoneys breakfast. And, heavens, I’ve never seen the Marietta Daily Journal dedicate their entire Easter edition to the role of religion in our lives. And, gosh, Monica Kaufman never talks about Christmas services and Passover in the news. And, BOY, do I miss people putting large, lit nativity displays on their front lawns.
I miss the mention of religious symbols on public land to celebrate A LEGAL RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY. That’s what I miss. Just in case you didn’t know, Christmas is not about the birth of Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.
Yeah, religiosity is in hiding like a fat man in a Hawaiian print shirt.
To your hyper-antireligous eyes, I’m sure there’s a Christian hiding behind every rock.
You and your children are free to pray anywhere you want. Just not led by a government employee.
Ah. So that’s the ”legal standard” d’jour. LOL!! The property isn’t the issue. It’s now the employee issue.
A single child’s feelings? No, but a single kids RIGHTS do. That single kid has the right to worship as he chooses (OR NOT AT ALL) without being subject to a government-led prayer.
Subjected to government led prayer. What a croc. LOL!! “Subjected.”
yes. and this happened ONLY after prayer was taken out of school. prior to 1962, all was well in the world. girls never got pregnant out of wedlock and everyone was law-abiding.
No it happened. But 70% of Black babies were not born out of wedlock. Opps. There’s that family values thing that I know you hate. Sorry about that. To hell with the family. It takes a village, not a family.
well, you were the one who asked the question trying to be a smart.
No. I was trying to make you understand that the failed policies of the democrats will be hurting my country for generations.
and, these people you are SOOOO concerned about (aw, diddums!) - how well did they fare with a GOP administration between 2000 and 2006??? did minority pregnancies decline? did fewer minority fathers walk out??? you think your team is so much better for the non-white population, why were pregnancies among minority girls on the rise?
The ghettos were still ruled by the democrats that run our city. While they were making the conditions even worse for the people who live here, they misplaced 141 million dollars that we now have to pay for in increased taxes. And oddly enough, all those wise democrats gave themselves incredible raises, some over 100%, just before they announced that the money was gone. Democrats. You must be really proud. Apparently, you are really proud of the fact that you live where their failed policies, cronyism and incompetence is not going to double your property taxes next year.
why has the rate of poverty increased? YOUR team was in charge - why weren’t things better? and if YOUR team is SO. MUCH. BETTER. for the non-white man, why don’t they vote for you??? I don’t think they’re stupid - I think they see the GOP exactly for what it is - and who it benefits.
Two words: Affirmative Action. Knock evil white people out of their jobs, no matter how long they have had them, replace them with a person who had the unique qualification of having more melatonin in their system than the evil white guy. Once again, democrats rule based on the color of one’s skin. What a surprise.
as I said for the last few days, the 1962 case was NOT an isolated case - prayer was removed from schools since the 1800s because minority religious groups were being alienated.
Being alienated. You want to explain that? Were they beaten? Were they hauled away? Were their families held hostage or did someone simply decide that someone’s feelings were being hurt?
And, yes, sometimes people DO need to step in and say that things are being done wrong … the abolitionists did it … the suffragettes did … the civil rights leaders did it. Personally, I’m happy to be in that company.
So you do agree that liberals push their views on others, but you just believe they are justified.
And who did the abolitionists do it against? Wasn’t the SCOTUS was it? And speaking of civil rights: Dr. King used to start his rallies with a prayer. He could only do that now if his rallies were not on government property. You must be soooo proud.
And you think that, if you use the same word often enough, that will make it applicable. Liberation, yes. But, fascism (a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism) - not so much.
What about that definition is NOT what liberals want? Nationalism has become an evil word, but take a look at Obama’s web page and tell me that he is not advocating exactly that definition.
no, dearest one … that’s right out of YOUR playbook.
Oh poor little joke, the most abusive and hysterical poster on the blog. But hell you praise an international arms dealer simply for the fact that he also walks in goose step with what you believe. Doesn’t take much for you to side with someone. Will you defend me, no matter how abusive I become if I think just like you?
On a lighter note: Next week, I will be directing the first complete haunted show that I will also be doing in Bath. It is a 300 year old Inn in Virginia that is haunted as hell. I have shot a couple of the shows, but this one is all mine. Should be a lot of fun. Of course this blog/gulag will be very boring next week with everyone nodding in agreement like a bunch of back window hound dogs, but hell, you guys seem to like that.
I am late going to the edit suite. Have a good day.
BTW. I do love my country and I really loved the freedoms that it used to offer to everyone. I don’t like what has happened to my country and I certainly don’t like the way the government has folded to the extreme left and the multi-billion dollar liberal media.
For the first time in my life, there are places I would rather live. Discussions like the one we have had show me that when people rejoice and call “freedom” the taking away of the religious rights that so many people have died for, there just isn’t much left to love.
I notice that you don’t live here anymore.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
“Scenario : Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack. 1957 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack’s shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack. 2007 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.
Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school. 1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies. 2007 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.
Scenario: Jeffrey won’t be still in class, disrupts other students. 1957 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again. 2007 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADD. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.
Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbor’s car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt. 1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman. 2007 - Billy’s dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist tells Billy’s sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy’s mom has affair with psychologist.
Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school . 1957 - Mark shares aspirin with Principal out on the smoking dock. 2007 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.
Scenario : Pedro fails high school English. 1957 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college. 2007 - Pedro’s cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appea r nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro’s English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.
Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed. 1957 - Ants die. 2007 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny ch arged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny’s Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him. 1957 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing. 2007 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
Truth -
ohfercryingoutloud. wipe the spittle off your screen and put a paper bag over your mouth. a few deep breaths and you will be aaaallll better.
Now, for the facts:
1) And speaking of civil rights: Dr. King used to start his rallies with a prayer. He could only do that now if his rallies were not on government property. people can gather on public property and pray til the cows come home. The anti-choicers do it every January at state capitals around the country and on the grounds of the Supreme court. The Promise Keepers and the National Day of Prayer on the National Mall. I could go on, but you get the point.
2) the “relevent question” was something you brought up yesterday - that people weren’t allowed to put up religious displays on PRIVATE property. I asked you to show me one single case (unrelated to zoning or related issues) - you decided to do your usual misdirection of not answering the question and pointing to something else when the argument isn’t going your way.
3) I miss the mention of religious symbols on public land to celebrate A LEGAL RELIGIOUS HOLIDAY yes, it is a legal religious holiday. why isn’t that enough of a government recognition for you? Jews don’t get it for Hanukkah or Yom Kippur (which they’d probably prefer). isn’t THAT enough of a preference for you?? no, no … you want it ALL. And, anything less is “forcing you into hiding”
4) You want to explain that? Were they beaten? Were they hauled away? Were their families held hostage or did someone simply decide that someone’s feelings were being hurt? actually, I believe JustaJew addressed that earlier. And, yes, non-Christians did have their rights trampled when teachers started their day praying in Jesus’ name, amen. As for the rest - I guess it isn’t torture if someone’s organs haven’t failed, either.
5) Knock evil white people out of their jobs, no matter how long they have had them, replace them with a person who had the unique qualification of having more melatonin in their system than the evil white guy and that’s why you hate democrats. because we recognized that the “good old boy” network was keeping people of color and women down - and we did something to address it. You like to pretend to take the high road, but, really, you hate us because we actually DO something about racism and sexism while you guys like to parrot “the market! the market! the market will fix it”
I notice that you don’t live here anymore.
that’s what happens when you marry a Brit … “whither thou goest” and all that.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
All childish behavior by a little man.
That hysteria and name calling didn’t take long. But now that I have called you out on your little lie that you had been spouting, you have to be the hysterical little twit under your common name. LOL!!
Ahhh. That’s a shame. Better bring back the screaming monkeys. You wouldn’t want anyone to see how crazy you really are.
Oh what a wicked web we weave when we practice to deceive.
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Truth -
*Ah. So that’s the ”legal standard” d’jour. LOL!! The property isn’t the issue. It’s now the employee issue. *
rats … forgot that one. okay, we’ve been talking about teacher-led prayer for most of the week before delving off into government property issues - pardon me for returning to it. I didn’t know you couldn’t handle a post that incorporates both. And, yes, teachers are government employees.
and it’s DU JOUR!!! (de + le jour = du jour)
By Retardo Rama
June 19, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
Hahahaha!!! Funny stuff today.
By LaughoftheDay
June 19, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
JokesOn is not LaughoftheDay but I guess delusionS is plural.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Pardon me for not knowing that liberal frenchy stuff. (snicker)
We can’t get in the edit suite. It was used last night and I got a good whiff and it smells like an opium den. Smoking around tape machines. See what I mean about the country going to crap. The cleaning crew has been in there for about an hour. I’ll bet we will be breathing Lysol for the rest of the day.
You would love this old Inn up in Virginia. I had visited it with my folks when I was a kid. It has slave quarters which are also very haunted. There is also an old abandoned jail that I have recordings of screaming from inside the jail that was recorded by the dash cam of a police cruiser. We are supposed to spend the night in the Inn. It is not a working Inn so they are trying to get beds in some of the rooms for us. They have feather beds for display, but we can’t use them. (I’m not sure I would want to.) I probably won’t sleep anyway.
Looks like the cleaning crew is coming out. Got to run. Have a good day.
By Mara
June 19, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Scenario #1 - direct result of the Harris-Klebold school massacre which, interestingly enough, is linked to —
Scenario #2 - Best friends Johnny and Mark bully the nerds while the administration pretended it’s still 1957. After all, if Johnny and Mark can beat on each other and become friends, why not expect every beat-down to result in bosom buddies?
Scenario #3 - First, ADD/ADHD are REAL disorders and anyone who suffers from them can attest to their debilitating effects. In 1957 Jeffrey would up getting beaten every day because of his illness and is labled a delinquent. He would probably quit school around the tenth grade and subsequently work a series of dead end jobs. Eventually he ends up in prison. Today he would get treatment and be able to have a normal life.
Scenario #4 - all things considered, it looks like the LEAST of that families problems is Billy breaking into the neighbors car.
Scenario #5 - direct result of the conservative-led “War on Drugs” and the increasingly draconian zero-tolerance mindset of the Rockerfeller/Reagan drugwarriors.
Scenario #6 - invalid and rediculous. Though I’m willing to revise that opinion given even a singly case where English is taken out of the curriculum of any school.
Scenario #7 - again, direct result of conservative hysteria and the “War on Terror”. In this case, the hysterical fear that anyone capable of making a “bomb” might be a member of an Al Qaeda sleeper cell.
Scenario #8 - untreated, Johnny’s scrape becomes infected and he ends up having to spend days in the hospital. Mommy and Daddy hire a lawyer and sue the dickens out of the tax-payers. During the discovery process they find out that Mary often presses little boys heads into her bosoms “to comfort them” and has a habit of inappropriate touching.
What’s funny is that most liberals favor treatment or couseling over punishment whenever possible. But yet it is we who are accused of steering society toward ever harsher, ever more unreasonable reactions to most of the above scenario’s. If liberals had their way, Harris and Klebold would have had the protection of the law, their tormentors would have been counseled, and bringing plastic knives (or hunting weapons) to school wouldn’t even have been noticed.
By USinUK
June 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Mara -
why did you bother wading into that fever swamp?? evidently, 1957 was a wonderful time when nothing ever went wrong. there was no racism or sexism, there was no youth violence, there were no child molestations, gay men and women knew their place (in the closet - or the psych ward) the government wasn’t infiltrating citizens groups to find out who was/wasn’t a commie, and everyone was hap-hap-happy all day long.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
Lighten up guys. It’s supposed to be funny. I’ve never seen that posted anywhere that somebody didn’t laugh. It doesn’t refer to liberals or conservatives.
Geese.
Tight as*ed, paranoid, over reacting liberals.
How does anybody live with them? I thought you were supposed to be the ones with the sense of humor.
OK. Back into the Lysol aroma therapy. Don’t make me come back out here.
By Mara
June 19, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
I know, I know, I knw…I just can’t help it. I know I shouldn’t. I don’t really want to. But there I go…tap-tap-tappity on the keyboard.
Maybe it was the fact that he used 1957 as his shining example. After all, it was 1957 when Betty Friedan wrote “The Feminist Mystique” and the FDA approved the birth control pill. It was 1957 when Eisenhower called out the National Guard to enforce Brown v Board of Education. The Civil Rights act. The Eisenhower Docrine of “imminent threat”. And so on.
1957 was a pivotal year in history. Sputnik, McCartney and Lennon, the Edsel, the Dodgers moving west…with all this upheaval, it’s odd that he’d pick that year as his shining example of conservative nirvana.
By Mara
June 19, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
“Geese”?! Now THAT’S funny, honk-honk… :^D
By ProObama
June 19, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
From slate.com, yet more Obama rumors:
There are many things people do not know about BARACK OBAMA. It is every American’s duty to read this message and pass it along to all of their friends and loved ones.
Barack Obama wears a FLAG PIN at all times. Even in the shower.
Barack Obama says the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE every time he sees an American flag. He also ends every sentence by saying, “WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.” Click here for video of Obama quietly mouthing the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE in his sleep.
A tape exists of Michelle Obama saying the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE at a conference on PATRIOTISM.
Every weekend, Barack and Michelle take their daughters HUNTING.
Barack Obama is a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN. He has one HAND over his HEART at all times. He occasionally switches when one arm gets tired, which is almost never because he is STRONG.
Barack Obama has the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE tattooed on his stomach. It’s upside-down, so he can read it while doing sit-ups.
There’s only one artist on Barack Obama’s iPod: FRANCIS SCOTT KEY.
Barack Obama is a DEVOUT CHRISTIAN. His favorite book is the BIBLE, which he has memorized. His name means HE WHO LOVES JESUS in the ancient language of Aramaic. He is PROUD that Jesus was an American.
Barack Obama goes to church every morning. He goes to church every afternoon. He goes to church every evening. He is IN CHURCH RIGHT NOW.
Barack Obama’s new airplane includes a conference room, a kitchen, and a MEGACHURCH.
Barack Obama’s skin is the color of AMERICAN SOIL.
Barack Obama buys AMERICAN STUFF. He owns a FORD, a BASEBALL TEAM, and a COMPUTER HE BUILT HIMSELF FROM AMERICAN PARTS. He travels mostly by FORKLIFT.
Barack Obama says that Americans cling to GUNS and RELIGION because they are AWESOME.
By LaughoftheDay
June 19, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
“Geese”?! Now THAT’S funny, honk-honk
I was actually wondering if that came grilled, broiled, or roasted.
By Truth
June 19, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
I thought that was kind of funny myself. When you are in a hurry, this is not a good blog considering there is no turning back once you hit the “post” button.
I’m impressed that you knew that it was a Republican that sent troops to Little Rock.
I read somewhere that Little Rock Central High was the number one academically rated public high school in the country this year.
57 was a great year for the Braves MLB franchise. They took the World Series from the NY Yankees, even though Mikey Mantle, a Yankee was voted MVP.
57 was a great year for cars. 58 was one of the worse. I’m not sure how, but I will eventually blame that on the democrats. Maybe a Union thing or something. Oh yea. Hoffa was elected head of the teamsters in 57. Yea, that’s it.
By RF
June 19, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
I’m staying out of the fray today- but thanks for the entertainment. It’s been a hoot reading all this!!
Archie- if you have some time, consider reading A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Dr. Ruby Payne. She’s an educator in Texas who has some interesting insights into the thinking and learning of those from generational and situational poverty. I think there’s a newer version of that book- I have the one from 1996 and it still applies. It improved my teaching and understanding of the needs of my poor kids. Poverty becomes a repetitive cycle because too many don’t know how to build the bridges linguistically and cognitively to really help these kids find the desire and ability to move out of it. Our government representatives on both sides need to understand that no government program is going to really help end poverty until we learn how to change the mindset- and it starts with children in school.
By RF
June 19, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
Something that occurred to me as I read today was that many conservatives, even in jest, often harken back to the glorious fifties. I’m hearing WAY too many, here and elsewhere, spouting the “we gotta get back to good ‘ol honest American values.” Glenn Beck is about to have a stroke over it on his show (which sometimes I used to like but can’t stand here lately). What do they really want to get back to? We have this notion that there was a time when we didn’t have to worry about crime or war or drugs. Really? If I’m not mistaken, that was also the time when schools were legally, CONSTITUTIONALLY segregated, there was nothing to help the poor medically or financially, and women couldn’t find a job except as teachers, nurses, or secretaries. That was also the time when we were fighting world, WORLD wars, organized crime ran most major cities, and average citizens had no control over wages or benefits. The only advantage I see was that the Columbians hadn’t found a market here yet for cocaine. Yeah, that was sooo much better a time, wasn’t it?
By RF
June 19, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
57- THE year for the Chevy Bel Air. I think 65 was better- the Mustang!