Woman to Woman

By w00t

May 4, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

Shaunti’s counter-argument would be more reasonable if Andrea had actually mentioned “private, values-based colleges”.

While it’s perfectly appropriate for a school like Liberty to have a religious-themed commencement speech, the commencement speeches at public and “non-values-based” private universities should be the traditional “go out into the world and kick some a*” commencement addresses.

Commencement speeches should speak to ALL the graduates, not just some.

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 8:15 AM | Link to this

It’s good of Shaunti to defend the rights of right-wing religious nuts to only hear speakers that agree with them. That helps preserve the bubble.

But overall, Andrea’s point is (as usual) the better one. A diversity of viewpoints is GOOD for America (and bad for blind, authoritarian-following sheep).

Of course, the speaker should be able to offer something of substance—you can’t just invite any random nutjob or Supreme Court justice onstage. Clarence Thomas, for example, would be a poor choice unless you could arrange for Scalia to be there as well, so Thomas could nod in all the right places.

By Love Filled Liberal

May 5, 2008 8:36 AM | Link to this

Copyleft

It’s good of Shaunti to defend the rights of right-wing religious nuts to only hear speakers that agree with them.

But overall, Andrea’s point is (as usual) the better one. A diversity of viewpoints is GOOD for America (and bad for blind, authoritarian-following sheep).

Good to see another open minded liberal who respects the right of fellow citizens to worship how they want. No bigotry there.

Of course, the speaker should be able to offer something of substance—you can’t just invite any random nutjob or Supreme Court justice onstage. Clarence Thomas, for example, would be a poor choice unless you could arrange for Scalia to be there as well, so Thomas could nod in all the right places.

No close mindedness there. The viewpoint of a good old liberal. No hate there, nosireebob. (Copyleft, you have a little drool hanging from your lip)

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

The thing about an open mind is when a mind is left completely open, everthing falls out. You gotta stand for something or you’ll fall for anything. Silly Liberals.

A speaker should reflect the values of an institution, as should the faculty and staff.

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

Your straw man is amusing. Why should I be filled with love and tolerance for bigotry and hatred?

By Truth

May 5, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

I’m stunned.

Andrea is admitting that some colleges lean left? Say it ain’t so. I thought that the whole world was centrist and only Oral Roberts U and FOX News leaned right.

The next thing you know, she will be admitting that Dan Rather had an agenda.

By lovelyliz

May 5, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

Can’t somebody remove the spam and faux ads from this message board?

By Love Filled Liberal

May 5, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

Copyleft

Why should I be filled with love and tolerance for bigotry and hatred?

So now you know why people dislike you.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

lovelyliz

Andrea said that they are understaffed. This would take like what? Three minutes to do?

By Truth

May 5, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

Gandalf, the Grey

Stand for what? Slamming others because they take the uncommon stance of actually believing in a higher power?

I thought this country was founded because of a need for religous freedom?

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

I always know I’m on the right track when Gandolt disagrees with me. Thanks, Grey Guy!

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

I didn’t say what you had to stand for…that is my point, stand for something. I may not agree with it, but better than being a air head that is filled with the next comment made by a talking head on your side. Just because something is messed up and unpopular, it isn’t necessarily the goverments job to fix it.

If a war being popular was a reason to fight it, John McClellan would have won the presidential race of 1864, defeating Lincoln and the war between the states would have been over. With a draw. Of course Lincoln’s illegal little war was unpopular! But did his winning it make us a greater country and (eventually) lead to equal treatment under the law for all americans? Damn Skippy!

I don’t think our great country was founded because of the need for religous freedom, just that the founding fathers wanted to separate the church (a church) from the goverment. Taxation without representation was a far bigger issue.

By lozen

May 5, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

The purpose of a university is educating students. What are the other values of an institution of learning? Copyleft, don’t ya just love how people on this blog can read the minds of all the others on the blog? I love your comments. People do not dislike you! Yes, religious freedom was part of the reason for the founding of this country. And then the ones who came here to find religious freedom immediately wanted to tell everyone how to worship. This country has always been schizophrenic when it comes to religion. “I want freedom to worship as I see fit but I don’t want anybody else to have that freedom because my religion is the only TRUE religion and people who don’t worship like me are WRONG!”

By Dave

May 5, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Actually Shaunti…. Christopher hitchens is EXACTLY what the graduating class of “talibangelicals” need to hear at their commencment address….it may NOT be too late for them to still be “saved” from their world of make believe. They might just be better prepared to live in and for “this world” on which we all spin…as oppossed to the “make believe” one in which they dedicate their lives to getting in to. If more people thought like Hitchens….this world would be a better place.

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Lozen, that is true for Mormons and for Muslims. Schizophrenic sects if there ever were any! Buddists, Taoist and Chirstians aren’t so bad. Hindus with that whole cow thing are a bit scary as well….as for the rest..as long as they aren’t eating little children, live and let live.

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Blind, fanatical faith is not compatible with a free society, but we let fundies live here anyway.

We don’t, however, guarantee that religious zealots will be “shielded” from opinions and ideas they disagree with. If you’re that frightened of the free exchange of ideas, move to a theocracy.

As an American, I have zero respect for blind stupidity and the arrogant, fanatical type of faith so common among evangelicals and Libery/Bob Jones/Jesus Camp University. I have the utmost respect for legitimate, THOUGHTFUL faith that recognizes other viewpoints as possible, acceptable, and even valuable in a free society.

By chuck

May 5, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Copyleft,In light of this statement you made, you are being pretty hypocritical:

A diversity of viewpoints is GOOD for America (and bad for blind, authoritarian-following sheep).

If you believe this statement you made, you should welcome a conservative speaker with open arms. If you have ever been on a college campus, you would know that the vast majority (one study put it at 81%) of college professors are FLAMING LIBERALS. In order for your statement to be put into practice, it would just about have to be done at commencement because they sure aren’t hearing a “diversity of viewpoints” in college classrooms.

What is it exactly that you are afraid of? Are you afraid that if these college students hear a conservative speaker at graduation that they may go out and do…what…NOT HAVE AN ABORTION? JOIN THE MILITARY? GET A JOB FOR A (GASP) BIG CORPORATION?

Get a clue lefty.

By Archie

May 5, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

My answer to the topic question is yes and no. If you’re a value-driven university or a unique,niche-driven university or college then yes the commencement speech should reflect the values of that place but if you’re a scientific,research,fact-based university then the commencement speech should not reflect any particular values. I don’t think the late Rev Falwell would be a good commencement speaker for Morehouse but Condi Rice would be a good commencement speaker for the University of SC because although Condi is a republican she is the Secretary of State of America. A christian school should not invite a known atheist to speak but a known atheist could give the commencement speech for the University of SC as I was taught by several agnostic professors although there is no official declaration the my alma mater is atheist.

By chuck

May 5, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

“I want freedom to worship as I see fit but I don’t want anybody else to have that freedom because my religion is the only TRUE religion and people who don’t worship like me are WRONG!”

So INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDING speakers who don’t agree with YOUR world view is different from your statement…how?

By chuck

May 5, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

We don’t, however, guarantee that religious zealots will be “shielded” from opinions and ideas they disagree with. If you’re that frightened of the free exchange of ideas, move to a theocracy.

Unless of course zealots are LIBERALS. We must shield them from anything conservative at all costs. After all, we wouldn’t want them thinking for themselves now would we?

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Copyleft, you won’t know what hit you when the nuclear weapon factory disguised as a mosque go’s off in your neighborhood. Silly Liberals! (I see that weapon is not plural.)

By kimberly

May 5, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

snerk Chuck, I think I went to the same University as you did. Would you say the prevalent thinking at YOURS was “liberal?” Hey, wasn’t that you on the concourse with Sister Cindy, Brother Jed, and Rusty Yates with the big black hats hollering that the rest of us would burn in “HAY-ull” because we’re all “HO-errrs?” Haha!

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Copyleft, you silly liberal!

By Dave

May 5, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

Chuck why is it that up to 81% of college professors are as you call them: “flaming liberals”…? (BTW…we libs wear that term “lberal” as a badge of honor these days…one only mneed to look at what the neo-cons have done to our country and around the world)…. well anyway…as I was saying… could it be that those that choose to EDUCATE themselves to the highest level, that question things, read, learn, ask questions end up being liberals? Why is that Chuck? Something to be damn proud of if you ask me… it shows that those who are the most educated, the majority of them…end up as liberals. Sorry if this goes over your head…you might just need to be a liberal to figure out what I was trying to get at… ;-)

By Truth

May 5, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

lozen

This country has always been schizophrenic when it comes to religion. “I want freedom to worship as I see fit but I don’t want anybody else to have that freedom because my religion is the only TRUE religion and people who don’t worship like me are WRONG!”

LOL!! That one goes in the book.

So the problem you have with religous people is that they insist on telling others that they are wrong. I see. LOL!! So what the hell are you telling them? That they are right?

LOL!!

By Bruce

May 5, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Watch out Dave. That “my way is the only way” thinking is exactly what you are spewing your hatred about.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

This is hysterical.

The subject mentions religion and the floor is slippery with liberal drool.

Calm down guys. We get that you think that you and only you know the truth. Try to think of religous people as human beings that care about others and have families. 99% of them just want you to have a better life, unlike most of the liberals on here that apparently want them to set down, shut up and listen to NPR like the rest of the real independent thinking intellects.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Dave

Having professors in a closed college environment where they can insist that others agree with them is actually the perfect occupation for a liberal.

But you may be shocked to learn that professors aren’t the only people with advanced degrees, There are some people who actually combine that degree with other skills and find a job, or start a business, or maybe even go into the military.

Yep. Be proud of that liberal professor. Agree with his politics. Hell, he might just even give you a passing grade.

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

You’re making false assumptions again, Chuck… and making yourself look silly in the process. (Again.)

Of course I’d welcome a conservative speaker at a university—if one could be found with someone of value and interest to offer. But William Buckley’s dead, and he was the last great thinker modern Republicans had. Clarence Thomas certainly isn’t in his league—the man has no thoughts of his own and nothing to say, except “[Wait for Scalia to speak]; [pause]; “I agree.”

An INTELLIGENT conservative speaker could, and should, be welcomed at any university commencement. Where can one be found? Today’s crop of prominent conservatives would pose a serious risk to the students: the risk of bored to death by the lack of intellectual vigor and the profusion of tired cliche’s masquerading as “ideas.”

Dave, you identified the obvious, Occam’s-Razor style conclusion: education leads to more liberal attitudes. The conservative response, of course, is that “there must be something wrong with education, then.” Yes, from their perspective, there is. THINKING is always a threat to hardcore believers, which is why they frown on it.

By Dave

May 5, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Really Bruce? You see me? If I DID believe in some make believe fictional man floating up in the air…and his gay son, along with his mom, etc… (something along the line of a fable)… I think as I grew older I’d switch religions and go for the one that gives you 14 virgins when you die. I mean, if you’re 16, or 20…you might still be able to score a few virgins…but when you get to 45, 55, 65, etc… I mean THEIR heaven seems like the place to go if you’re a guy… How come the “talibangelicals” version of the bible does not promise you little hotties to have sex with all day and night long…if it did…i’d write a $50,000 check to my local mega church today. Now THAT’S a ticket to heavan I’d seriously consider paying for!

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

You’re making false assumptions again, Chuck… and making yourself look silly in the process. (Again.)

Of course I’d welcome a conservative speaker at a university—if one could be found with something of value and interest to offer. But William Buckley’s dead, and he was the last great thinker modern Republicans had. Clarence Thomas certainly isn’t in his league—the man has no thoughts of his own and nothing to say, except “[Wait for Scalia to speak]; [pause]; “I agree.”

An INTELLIGENT conservative speaker could, and should, be welcomed at any university commencement. Where can one be found? Today’s crop of prominent conservatives would pose a serious risk to the students: the risk of bored to death by the lack of intellectual vigor and the profusion of tired cliche’s masquerading as “ideas.”

Dave, you identified the obvious, Occam’s-Razor style conclusion: education leads to more liberal attitudes. The conservative response, of course, is that “there must be something wrong with education, then.” Yes, from their perspective, there is. THINKING is always a threat to hardcore believers, which is why they frown on it.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

Copyleft

As an American, I have zero respect for blind stupidity and the arrogant, fanatical type of faith so common among evangelicals and Libery/Bob Jones/Jesus Camp University. I have the utmost respect for legitimate, THOUGHTFUL faith that recognizes other viewpoints as possible, acceptable, and even valuable in a free society.

Wow. So you are completely tolerant with anyone . . as long as they agree with you. LOL!! I think you should apply for the Nobel.

Today is practically Comedy Central on here. LOL!!

By Mystery Solved

May 5, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

Your straw man is amusing

Occam’s-Razor style conclusion

Copyleft = 72John. Bet on it.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

copyleft

An INTELLIGENT conservative speaker could, and should, be welcomed at any university commencement. Where can one be found? Today’s crop of prominent conservatives would pose a serious risk to the students: the risk of bored to death by the lack of intellectual vigor and the profusion of tired cliche’s masquerading as “ideas.”

And of course, YOU get to decide what could be considered intellectual vigor. YOU get to decide what are tired Clichés and YOU get to decide what are real and viable ideas.

I am really learning a lot today about how absolutely open-minded liberals can really be. LOL!!

Religion always brings out the best in you guys.

By Mystery Solved

May 5, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

That “my way is the only way” thinking is exactly what you are spewing your hatred about.

Don’t forget, buddy, liberals CAN’T hate. By definition. Just ask one.

By chuck

May 5, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

Copyleft, you have made some really stupid statements in the past, but this one is beyond the pale:

Clarence Thomas certainly isn’t in his league—the man has no thoughts of his own and nothing to say, except “[Wait for Scalia to speak]; [pause]; “I agree.”

Thomas graduated from Holy Cross in 1971 with honors.

Thanks to his sterling academic record, Thomas was admitted to the law schools at Yale, Harvard, and the University of Pennsylvania. He chose Yale because of the financial support it offered him. At Yale, he continued to do well academically.

So copyleft, which college did you graduate from. I’m guessing you dropped out from a JC after a couple of semesters. If you were one tenth as accomplished as Clarence Thomas, MAYBE people might actually care what you have to say. Until then we’ll just continue laughing at it.

What’s really hilarious is that you have fallen into the typical liberal trap of thinking that ONLY liberals are capable of rational thought…and you don’t even realize that YOU are the ones who want to repress free thought. Apparently no liberal can resist the siren call of conservatism. If these students are so weak-minded that they will be swayed by ONE commencement speech, I am horrified about what the future might bring for them.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

hollering that the rest of us would burn in “HAY-ull”

Instead of fighting all week about liberal vs. conservative, I would love to hear each one of y’all’s personal beliefs regarding an “afterlife”. Does anyone other than chuck and Monica believe in a literal Heaven and Hell??

Personally, I believe that spirit is intimately connected with material, such that when the body dies, so does the “spirit”.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

The problem is the media.

Liberals, imagine that every time you turned on the TV, you were preached at by conservatives, and very self righteous, know-it-all-make-a-joke-about-you-if-you-disagreed-with-them conservatives. Or better yet, think about having all FOX News’s to watch. Imagine almost every entertainment show being infested with anti-liberal, pro-conservative propaganda. Imagine Comedy Central being pro-conservative. Imagine Johnny Carson being complementary toward Dan Quaile.

This is why Conservatives are so much more tolerant toward other’s ideas than liberals. We are not the “go along” crowd. We have had liberalism shoved down our throats since 1968. One network (FOX NEWS) doesn’t march in goose step with the rest of the propaganda machine and liberals declare it the world’s greatest evil.

But it’s days like this when liberals show their true colors, their true lack of respect or even tolerance of other’s ideas.

“They don’t think like me, so I hate em. And what’s worse, they have the gall to actually tell me that I am WRONG.”

Need to get out of here. You guys do keep it up. You are a wealth of information, today.

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 5, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t hate liberal, just hate listening to them. They make no sense. The reason so large a percentage of liberals are in acedemia is that they can’t make it in the real world, but ya’ll knew that.

By Bruce

May 5, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Yes really Dave. It doesn’t matter if you believe in “a make believe fictional man floating up in the air…and his gay son, along with his mom, etc… “. You just think your right and those that do believe are wrong. So what makes you so different than those you speak against? What makes you so right?

By Liberal

May 5, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

“I don’t hate liberal, just hate listening to them.”

You have your wish. This liberal is leaving the building. More pointless than usual today. Knock yourselves out praising each other. Don’t wait up.

By Mara

May 5, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

my take on the issue: it depends on what the school sees as its mission. Is their function to open the minds of their students, expose them to wider schools of thought, and allow them to explore their differences? If this is their “mission” then certainly they should welcome speakers of all stripes.

If they see their raison d’etre as turning out ideological foot soldiers, then inviting those with contrary views would be…contraversial. Regent University, for example, inviting a Paul Kurtz (google him), or Berkely inviting Beverly LaHaye, would be a waste of everybodies time and a needless annoyance.

Then we have those wage-slave universities that exist only to prepare their students for employment. In these cases, having a speaker who focuses on religion or international diplomacy might not be the best fit.

that’s my $.02

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

No, what’s typically hilarious about you, chuck, is your instant resort to personal attacks based on completely unfounded assumptions… the telling sign of a closed mind feeling threatened by new ideas.

As for “unlimited tolerance,” the caricature that liberals are supposed to embrace—it’s nonsense, of course. Karl Popper pointed out:

“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.”

So, no: liberals do NOT stand for unlimited tolerance, even of evil and hatred. We DO get to make value judgments. And we DO have ethical standards… just not the ones that fascists, zealots, and bigots would prefer.

To you, that makes no sense. “If you’re not blindly in lockstep with religious and Republican decress, you have no morals and no values!” is the belief that’s been drummed into your little skulls. The fact that this view has no connection to reality has never bothered the authoritarian/follower type. Facts and logic don’t matter; only BELIEF does.

Yes, chuck and “Truth,” I DO get to decide who’s worth listening to and who isn’t. And so far, you’ve both missed the mark by a pretty wide margin. Do you think you can do any better? I’m waiting….

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

By the way, chuck, you raise an interesting point on Shaunti’s side; Apparently students at conservative-Christian college are so weak-minded they can’t withstand exposure to even ONE atheist speaker.

Am I right? After all, you DID just make that very same argument about liberals’ “fear” of conservative speakers… care to refute it?

By Copyleft

May 5, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Curious: To answer your question, I have no idea if any afterlife exists, and I know of no reason to think one does.

By Mara

May 5, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

Curious - I would love to hear each one of y’all’s personal beliefs regarding an “afterlife”

have you ever read the Celestine Prophesy?

By Curious

May 5, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

I have no idea if any afterlife exists, and I know of no reason to think one does.

I appreciate the input, Copyleft. Since a “spirit” is, by definition, non-material, it’s not possible for me to imagine how a non-entity can transcend the material body to which it is associated.

In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

So, if “rational argument” isn’t enough to change the hearts and minds of those who are “intolerant”, by what means do you propose to “suppress” them? Perhaps by “fists and pistols”? For a fairly smart fellow, you seem to have a blind spot regarding your own brand of intolerance. No offense, of course.

By Mara - Devil's Advocate

May 5, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Copy - if one sees “the soul/spirit” as the energy which animates a living body, then some kind of “afterlife” would seem to be inevitable since energy can’t be destroyed, only changed.

Of course, this would also indicate that there was no “moment of creation” since it can’t be “created” either.

By Dave

May 5, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Bruce….Because you have, nor do you offer: ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF of his/her existance.

Belief in ALL organized religions have one common denominator… a “fear” of death. People have this fear that life just ends….so all religions offer people a “next life” that not only exists AFTER this life…but it’s a “better” life than this one on earth. If people would get over the fact that they just die…that it’s just like before you were born…blank…nothing…kind of peaceful if you ask me… than perhaps it is THIS world they would care about and not the make believe one that can’t be shown to exsist. Why is it that as you get older…Santa is now fake, same with the Easter Bunny, but everyone keeps believing in some fictional thing floating out in the clouds? One dreamed up when people could not explain nor reason as to why it rained or thundered. Why is it YOUR religion is the “correct” one? If you were born in Saudi Arabia… do you think you would believe in the same god? Or some gay named jesus? Probably not…99.9% no… But just because you had parents that told you that this “thing” was true…. they brain washed you from a little child…and your fear of death makes you feel that “need” to believe…to think that you can live forever and ever…

Just like all things living…all things die…. you to shall face that same fate… as we all do and will… Maybe there are those of us that care about THIS place we live in, and don’t need to WAIT to get to the “other side”…..

By Curious

May 5, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

have you ever read the Celestine Prophesy?

I have heard of it, but don’t know much about the details, Mara. Does that book, or associated philosophy speak to you? If you can summarize what it means to you, I would be very appreciative.

By Truth

May 5, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Copyleft

The problem is that you don’t understand your own intolerance. You do get to decide your own standards, but it is never about that. It is you deciding who should appear where or who should be the intelligent speaker. It is YOU that want to make the rules for others, and that is indeed the mantra of so many liberals; particularly liberals that have a distinctive bigotry toward anyone who might have a religous belief.

You aren’t the only liberal this morning that couldn’t wait to scream: “To the bandwagon!!!” Almost everyone that appeared did. I think what is so disgusting about all this is the fact that your ilk seems to think that selective bigotry is OK, as long as it is the accepted bigotry of the fair minded left.

Once bigotry is accepted, it becomes harder and harder to see the problems with it.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

if one sees “the soul/spirit” as the energy which animates a living body, then some kind of “afterlife” would seem to be inevitable since energy can’t be destroyed, only changed.

Einstein’s famous equation, E = M*c^2 postulates that matter and energy are two “faces” of the same underlying entity. In my personal belief system, “spirit” represents the integrated, intelligent way in which said matter/energy arranges itself so that it becomes “purposeful”. In this way of thinking, the matter/energy component of the organism certainly transcends death, but I question whether the particular intelligence associated with a particular collection of matter/energy still exists once the particular organism ceases to exist.

Of course, this would also indicate that there was no “moment of creation” since it can’t be “created” either.

I will agree that “Creation” is a logical impossibility, since it always begs the question “What existed BEFORE Creation?” In the end, I think the inability to answer that question points more toward an inherent weakness of our own brand of logic than anything else, however.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

Because you have, nor do you offer: ANY SCIENTIFIC PROOF of his/her existance.

Dave, the first rule of true Scientific Inquiry is to recognize the limitations inherent in said inquiry. If you wish to hold the Scientific Method up as some kind of “gold standard” of truth, you’re missing out on about 99% of the big picture.

so all religions offer people a “next life” that not only exists AFTER this life…but it’s a “better” life than this one on earth.

Sorry, not true. In faiths which incorporate a reincarnation type of “afterlife”, there’s no guarantee that the next life will be better than the present one. In many branches of Zen Buddhism (Soto, for example), the question of an “afterlife” is never directly addressed.

By Mara

May 5, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Curious - please keep in mind that I’m agnostic by nature. As such, I tend to look for “natural” explanations instead of “magic” ones. The idea of the “soul” being actual energy, for example. Were I able to suspend my disbelief enough to “believe” in God(s), I would probably tend toward one of the earth religions, paganism, wicca, shamanism…simply because they mix the tangible with the spiritual.

The Celestine Prophesy is a fictional novel that suggests some interesting paths of inquiry in regard to “spiritual” matters. The book discusses various psychological and spiritual ideas that are rooted in many ancient Eastern Traditions. The main character of the novel undertakes a journey to find and understand a series of nine spiritual insights on an ancient manuscript in Peru. -

From Celestine Phophesy wiki - The Nine Insights

The First Insight… A Critical Mass

A new spiritual awakening is occurring in human culture; an awakening brought about by a critical mass of individuals who experience their lives as a spiritual unfolding, a journey in which we are led forward by mysterious coincidences.

The Second Insight… The Longer Now

This awakening represents the creation of a new, more complete worldview, which replaces a five-hundred-year-old preoccupation with secular survival and comfort. While this technological preoccupation was an important step, our awakening to life’s coincidences is opening us up to the real purpose of human life on this planet, and the real nature of our universe.

The Third Insight… A Matter of Energy

We now experience that we live not in a material universe, but in a universe of dynamic energy. Everything extant is a field of sacred energy that we can sense and intuit. Moreover, we humans can project our energy by focusing our attention in the desired direction, in that where attention goes, energy flows, influencing other energy systems and increasing the pace of coincidences in our lives. It is possible to see this energy enveloping all living things.

The Fourth Insight… The Struggle For Power

To gain energy, we tend to manipulate or force others to give us attention and thus energy. When we successfully dominate others in this way, we feel more powerful, but they are left weakened and often fight back. Competition for scarce, human energy is the cause of all conflict between people.

The Fifth Insight… The Message of the Mystics

Insecurity and violence ends when we experience an inner connection with divine energy within, a connection described by mystics of all traditions. A sense of lightness or buoyancy along with the constant sensation of love are measures of this connection. If these measures are present, the connection is real. If not, it is only pretended.

The Sixth Insight… Clearing the Past

The more we stay connected, the more we are acutely aware of those times when we lose connection, usually when we are under stress. In these times, we can see our own particular way of stealing energy from others. Once our manipulations are brought to personal awareness, our connection becomes more constant and we can discover our own evolutionary path in life, and our spiritual mission, which is the personal way we can contribute to the world. Here the four main “control dramas”—the Interrogator, the Intimidator, the Aloof and the Poor Me—are discussed. Each person unconsciously prefers one of these four to suck energy out of others (as described in the Fourth Insight).

The Seventh Insight… Engaging the Flow

Knowing our personal mission further enhances the flow of mysterious coincidences as we are guided toward our destinies. First we have a question; then dreams, daydreams, and intuitions lead us towards the answers, which usually are synchronistically provided by the wisdom of another human being.

The Eighth Insight… The Interpersonal Ethic

We can increase the frequency of guiding coincidences by uplifting every person that comes into our lives. Care must be taken not to lose our inner connection when we have become part of romantic relationships. Uplifting others is especially effective in groups wherein each member can feel energy of all the others. With children it is extremely important for their early security and growth. By seeing the beauty in every face, we lift others into their wisest self, and increase the chances of hearing a synchronistic message.

The Ninth Insight… The Emerging Culture

As we all evolve toward the best completion of our spiritual missions, the technological means of survival will be fully automated as humans focus instead on synchronistic growth. Such growth will move humans into higher energy states, ultimately transforming our bodies into spiritual form and uniting this dimension of existence with the after-life dimension, ending the cycle of birth and death.

again lwt me say that I am aware that this is a fictional work, so take it for whatever it’s worth.

By Bruce

May 5, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Dave I don’t believe I said anything about what I believe. My only comment was that you scream about religious folks telling you they are right when you are doing the same thing. I guess what I am saying is, with all due respect, you sir are a hypocrite. The most dangerous kind of human.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

again lwt me say that I am aware that this is a fictional work, so take it for whatever it’s worth.

Honestly, I don’t see any new ground covered by the philosophy associated with The Celestine Prophecy as presented here. It appears to be an amalgam of ancient spiritual wisdom and “new-age” concepts, with some psycho-babble thrown in for good measure.

In my studies of History, it has always struck me that each generation feels like we are in “The End Times”, and are thus on the verge of some grand “breakthrough”, whether it is the traditional “Rapture” of the Bible, or here a transformation of our bodies into spiritual form and uniting this dimension of existence with the after-life dimension, ending the cycle of birth and death. Just an observation.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

I guess what I am saying is, with all due respect, you sir are a hypocrite. The most dangerous kind of human.

I’m a hypocrite. Aren’t we all??

By Truth

May 5, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Curious

I would love to hear each one of y’all’s personal beliefs regarding an “afterlife.

I hope there is an afterlife. Out of this massive, ageless universe, if I just get these few years on this tiny rock in this remote solar system imbedded deep withing this meaningless galaxy, during these few years, I would be pis*ed.

Everyone has a religion. Whether you worship a higher authority or you worship your own ability to reason, you are worshipping something.

I believe that God is nature. God is red, blue and Yellow. God is Oxygen and magnesium. God is the rules that make the universe work. Do those rules say that we can live in more than one life? No one knows. Chuck has faith that his way is the way. But so does Copyleft. But neither one knows.

I guess we are all guaranteed to live on through children and even through things we have done, but I would like to have another shot. I think I have had them before and I think I will have them again. But do I know? Of course not.

I do know that the chances of me being born in this country, at the top of the food chain (literally), when I am working in front of a computer instead of mining coal in 12th century England or any other gruesome profession is an unbelievable long shot.

I just hope I do this well in the next life, if there is one.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

I just hope I do this well in the next life, if there is one.

Truth, thanks for an eloquent statement of your belief system.

I’m hoping that kimberly and lozen weigh in today, as well as any “lurkers” on board.

Since the question of an afterlife is essentially unanswerable, maybe in the end it’s unimportant. For some reason, it fascinates me because it taps into so many areas of our brains, both our “logical” side, and our “emotional” side. And, it stimulates feelings of either hope or hopelessness, which I think are our ultimate motivators to either get out of bed in the morning, or not.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

If I do come back as an animal, I would wish to be a beautiful mini-rex rabbit. However, I would most likely come back as a stray dog…..

By chuck

May 5, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

…the telling sign of a closed mind feeling threatened by new ideas.

Yep. I’M THE ONE saying that people should not be allowed to speak because of their ideology.

By Monica

May 5, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

As for the topic question: does anyone actually listen to speakers at graduation? Call me shallow, but I have no recollection of the keynote speaker at my college graduation. I was just waiting for my degree to be conferred upon me, “with all the rights and privileges appertaining thereto.”

By chuck

May 5, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Apparently students at conservative-Christian college are so weak-minded they can’t withstand exposure to even ONE atheist speaker.

Am I right? After all, you DID just make that very same argument about liberals’ “fear” of conservative speakers… care to refute it?

In fact, I will refute it. I did not go to a Christian college except for one quarter, but when I went to a secualr college I went to hear all manner of speakes. I WANTED to hear what they had to say. One of the more famous athiests that I heard speak was Ashley Montagu and actually was a student panelist in a round table discussion/debate with him. If you aren’t familiar with him you can find hime here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Montagu

We got into a great discussion on whether or not Jesus was the Son of God as I claimed or just a god man and teacher. You see, I’ve done all of the intellectual exploration that I needed to do to find the truth. You know next to nothing about my faith, but claim that you know it all. Who is actually closed minded? You obviously are.

By chuck

May 5, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

oops…GOOD man and teacher

By Curious

May 5, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

You see, I’ve done all of the intellectual exploration that I needed to do to find the truth. Who is actually closed minded?

Thanks for answering your own question, chuck. Pretty amazing that you know the all the answers to essentially unanswerable questions. I guess Richard Feynman, who said that he is more comfortable saying “I don’t know” than trying to support a bunch of guesses isn’t quite as smart as YOU. BTW, do you even know who Richard Feynman was??

As for the topic question: does anyone actually listen to speakers at graduation? Call me shallow, but I have no recollection of the keynote speaker at my college graduation. I was just waiting for my degree to be conferred upon me, “with all the rights and privileges appertaining thereto.”

Through a stroke of good fortune, the speaker at my graduation was Bob Hope. I’ll never forget that! Very cool guy.

By Curious

May 5, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

We got into a great discussion on whether or not Jesus was the Son of God as I claimed or just a god man and teacher.

Since there are no existant writings attributed directly to Jesus, how do you know what the man/Messiah ACTUALLY said, chuck? Or, are you a mind-reader of some kind?

By Dave

May 5, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Ah yes Bruce….it is “I” that is dangerous… as there have been no wars fought in history because of one’s religious beliefs… yes all of those that believe in a god are peaceful and loving… you are very right. There are no hypocrites when it comes to religion…just ask Ted Haggard!

By lozen

May 5, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Liberals, imagine that every time you turned on the TV, you were preached at by conservatives, and very self righteous, know-it-all-make-a-joke-about-you-if-you-disagreed-with-them conservatives. Well, we could talk about call in radio shows…

Imagine Johnny Carson being complementary toward Dan Quaile. Imagine Rush being complimentary toward Clinton or Gore or Kerry.

This is why Conservatives are so much more tolerant toward other’s ideas than liberals. Ha, ha, ha.

We are not the “go along” crowd. We have had liberalism shoved down our throats since 1968.

We have had conservatives try to take away our right to our own bodies/reproduction/birth control choices since the 60s or before. We have had conservatives take children away from mothers because the mothers were gay. We have had conservatives froth at the mouth at the idea of gay marriage. I could go on and on. But you are more interested in the great disadvantages of tv shows for conservatives apparently than the politics involved in trying to make women have children they can’t support.

By Cat Stevens

May 5, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Then I found my head one day when I wasn’t even trying

And here I have to say, ‘cause there is no use in lying

Yes the answer lies within, so why not take a look now?

Kick out the devil’s sin, pick up, pick up a good book now

By lozen

May 5, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Take this test and see if you did better than I did. Very interesting…

www.bush-mccainchallenge.com/

By Truth

May 5, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Lozen

Imagine Rush being complimentary toward Clinton or Gore or Kerry.

LOL!! This is the best you have? LOL!! Rush Limbaugh was not America’s favorite late night host for 35 years. You just don’t get it.

You have choices other than Rush Limbaugh. Conservatives had no other choice but liberals entertaining them for 40 years.

By Copyleft

May 6, 2008 8:10 AM | Link to this

“Yep. I’M THE ONE saying that people should not be allowed to speak because of their ideology.”

Well, I’m certainly not the one saying that, Chuck. More assumptions on your part. Remember when I said a diversity of views is a GOOD thing? and that I’d welcome a conservative speaker, if one could be found with someone of value to say?

I was pointing out that a commencement speaker shouldn’t be just any random shmoe off the street. And Clarence Thomas wouldn’t be a good choice because all he does is parrot Scalia.

As for “Truth”: Yes, I recognize my intolerance of bigots and zealots. No, I don’t see that as hypocrisy. You keep arguing with a liberal-caricature you’ve created in your own mind, so you can shout “Aha—gotcha! Liberals aren’t allowed to have standards and ethics, ‘cuz then they’d be hypocrites!”

But that’s just nonsense, and I think you should be able to see why. If I believe in freedom, do I therefore support someone’s freedom to tyrannize others? Of course not. Is that hypocritical? Again, no. You’re playing silly “gotcha” games, trying to score points against a hated liberal instead of addressing the topic.

By USinUK

May 6, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

Truth -

Conservatives had no other choice but liberals entertaining them for 40 years.

maybe that’s because CONSERVATIVES JUST AREN’T THAT FUNNY. Want proof?? try the aborted Daily-Show clone that Fox attempted (Half-Hour News Hour, or some such nonsense) - cancelled after only a couple of shows.

Dennis Miller used to be funny when he was an equal-opportunist absurdist on SNL and HBO - now, he just seems like an angry old man. His show on CNBC didn’t last that long, either.

Drew Carey tried to run a conservative comedian association, but had to shut it down due to lack of interest.

As for Johnny Carson - criminey, give it a rest. He took over as host in 1962 and left in 1992 - during that time, he had JFK, LBJ and Carter to poke fun of (11 yrs), but for majority of his tenure he had Nixon, Ford and Reagan (20 yrs). In other words, for only 1/3 of his time on the air were Dems in the WH - the rest were GOP. So, yes, he spent more time poking fun of the GOP than the Dems - Get over it.

By Jake

May 6, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

Copyleft, from your comments, it appears that you have either had too much dealings with a few “bad apples” who call themselves Christian, or have not met enough Christians.

Much of what you say, I and many other Christians would agree with 100%. Unfortunately, and this is common in blog arenas, some of your comments are including too broad statements and innuendo that suggest, or outright state, that you have little regard for others whose view points you believe are too different from yours.

Hopefully my first paragraph above is right, and my second one above is wrong. Your comments ranged from thoughtful and witty, to small minded retorts, so I can’t tell. (again, this is common in a blog arena).

God be with you regardless.

By Skeptical Empathy

May 6, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

The story, as it was told to me, does not ring completely true. Not to be insensitive, but if you plot the stated details on a timeline, they just don’t add up. Not saying it was impossible, by any means, but elements were omitted and/or fudged. Might believe that it happened, but cannot buy that it happened that way. Convincing effort, though.

By Mara

May 6, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Jake - it appears that you have either had too much dealings with a few “bad apples” who call themselves Christian, or have not met enough Christians

So are you saying that it’s a minority of “faux Christians” that insist that the US is a “Christian” nation and everyone else should shut up and deal(I got that infamous e-mail more than twice…)? That there’s nothing wrong with forcing the jewish kid, the hindu kid, or the atheist kid to acknowlege “god” when they can solute the flag?

It’s a minority of “faux Christians” that contend religiosity (and christianity in particular) is the ONLY basis for morality? Is it also a minority of faux Christians who believe that gays are immoral abominations and their agenda is to destroy this nation and tear down “marriage”? That “liberals” want to take your bible, force your kids to have sex (and abortions) and tear down all the churches? (okay, that last bit is a paraphrase of numerous rants and political ads I’ve heard and not verbatim quotes)

That evolution, biology, geology, cosmology and paleontology are lies foisted on decent people by god-hating secularists?

If this is so, maybe you need to take a look at who is speaking for you, because their words are filled with anger, hatred, and condemnation for those who don’t share their ideology.

btw, may Zues be with you, too.

USinUK - you mean you don’t find Ann Coulter hysterically funny!? I’m SHOCKED….LOL!!

By Truth

May 6, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

opyleft

As for “Truth”: Yes, I recognize my intolerance of bigots and zealots.

All religous people are not zealots and bigots. In fact, I would bet that more liberals are zealots and bigots than religous people.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

What Christians are you guys talking about? Where do you get these quotes that are nothing but anti-Christian nonsense.

This happens every time religion is brought up. You find some nut like Haggy and because of what he says, you condemn anyone that has ever opened a Bible.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

USinUK

my point was that conservatives are subjected to anti-conservative propaganda on a daily basis and have been for 40 years. (As you apparently agree) Because of that, we have learned to look past that and enjoy the entertainment.

Liberals have never had to do that. If a show is anti-liberal, you don’t watch it, you throw rocks at the studios. (See RNC Convention, NYC, 2004)

This fact explains why so many liberals are so hard core about not accepting or respecting the beliefs of others. Look at what Copyleft has written these past two days. He is convinced that everyone but agnostics are zealots and bigots, (of course making him the bigot)

By Truth

May 6, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Mara

So are you saying that it’s a minority of “faux Christians” that insist that the US is a “Christian” nation and everyone else should shut up and deal(I got that infamous e-mail more than twice…)?

How many people are required to send out an internet email? Do you think it took every member of every church.

You are grasping at straws.

By Mara

May 6, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

How many people are required to send out an internet email?

just one. and then the next one who forwards it to ten people, and the next two who forward it to ten more each, etc. etc. Tacit agreement from the majority. Only perhaps one in a hundered will reply to “All” and assert that the statement is a bunch of hooey and they should all be ashamed of themselves.

The last time I got it it had been forwarded seven times to multiple recipients. The only “reply all” repudiation that I recieved was the one I sent out.

What’s the old saying…something about “all evil needs to flourish is for good people to do nothing”?

By Dave

May 6, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

After 7 1/2 years…

Gays are STILL GAY….abortion is STILL legal! YAY!!!! Go Obama!!! “Talibangelicals” SUCK!!! Get OUT of the bedrooms of the people and start CARING ABOUT PEOPLE!!!! I’ll take a prez that sleeps with interns anyday over the clowns you voted in…TWICE! Though I guess it’s OK with you all for Iraqi Muslins to be slaughtered…as they’re not “really” human…right? When you say “all life is sacrid”….what part of “all life” are you missing….how can you say that “collateral damage” is OK when it comes to even one single “innocent” human dying…. damn talibangelicals!!!!

By Dave

May 6, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

You know what I LOVE about you “talibangelicals”… and your “gay marriage” ammendment? You did not turn ONE SINGLE gay person straight! Gays are STILL gay.

You see…me? I have to say…if this “marriage ammendment” was NOT passed, I think I was almost about to turn gay myself. I would have divorced my wife, married my best friend…and then? We BOTH would have become public school teachers (or pastors) only for ONE reason…to turn YOUR children gay!!!

Look at it this way… IF we ALL turn gay, there will be NO MORE NEED FOR ABORTIONS!!!

(well, at least unless you are a gay woman raped by a straight man…because that NEVER happens…as almost ALL rapes are done by gays…right?!?!)…

Where’s Ted Haggard when I “want” and “need” him? Does he STILL get “private” meetings with Dubya at the White House? What did they talk about during their “prayer sessions” when he DID go to the White House? Only Allah knows…. Or….maybe the gay baby Jesus knows as well! ;-)

By Copyleft

May 6, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

Be fair, Mara. Jake’s asking a legitimate question (unlike “truth,” who’s spewing more presumptuous nonsense).

No, I’ve been very careful to distinguish the minority of fundamentalist zealots from mainstream, sensible, peaceable Christians—which I do believe constitute a majority, albeit a quiet one.

Did you miss the part where I specifically condemned BLIND faith, and noted my respect for rational, thoughtful faith that can coexist with other views? That’s what America’s about, folks… and the fundies really can’t be comfortable with that. Thus the constant friction.

By the way: you’ve also ASSUMED that I’m an agnostic. Where did I say that? It’s your constant confusion of “blind faith” with “any faith at all” that’s causing the problem… but that’s your error, not mine.

By Copyleft

May 6, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

Truth also errs by putting “liberals” and “religious people” in different categories… when, of course, most Christian Americans ARE liberals.

By Copyleft

May 6, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

Whoops, got that switched around: “When, of course, most liberal Americans ARE Christians.”

By lozen

May 6, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

Copyleft, loved your 8:10. USinUK, I was going to say the same thing about Johnny Carson but you beat me to it. Mara, good points; glad you’re here.

This is a test to see if the censors block me when I copy one of the spammers .. By hermelinda

May 6, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

Lindsay Lohan having sex Close up Dripping P* Free Gallery Yu-gi-oh Porno blondes sucking dick Jessica Simpson a*

By lozen

May 6, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

By hermelinda May 6, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this Lindsay Lohan having sex Close up Dripping P* Free Gallery Yu-gi-oh Porno blondes sucking dick Jessica Simpson a*

Inappropriate and profane comments will be edited at the discretion of the editors.

So why don’t you block the above spam? I’ll see if you block it now when I copy it and send it!

By USinUK

May 6, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

Truth -

my point was that conservatives are subjected to anti-conservative propaganda on a daily basis and have been for 40 years. (As you apparently agree) Because of that, we have learned to look past that and enjoy the entertainment.

oh, fercryingoutloud - you’re calling Johnny Carson et al “anti-conservative propaganda”??? Talk show hosts make fun of whoever is in the WH, be they GOP or Dem. Or, maybe you were asleep during the Clinton years when the Bubba/barbecue/blue dress jokes were making the rounds.

Liberals have never had to do that. If a show is anti-liberal, you don’t watch it, you throw rocks at the studios. (See RNC Convention, NYC, 2004)

so, you’re conflating real life (RNC convention demonstrations) with talk show monologues?

This fact explains why so many liberals are so hard core about not accepting or respecting the beliefs of others. Look at what Copyleft has written these past two days. He is convinced that everyone but agnostics are zealots and bigots, (of course making him the bigot)

Truth - please learn the difference between accepting and respecting someone else’s beliefs and allowing those people to turn their beliefs into legislation. I have no problem that there are religious people out there who believe that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. I DO have a problem with them using that as a reason to enable discrimination against gays. I have a number of friends who are anti-choice and I respect their beliefs. However, I DO have a problem when they want to impose their beliefs on me, my doctor and my access to legal medication (e.g., the Pill).

It’s not the beliefs that are the problem, it’s the ACTIONS that we don’t tolerate.

By USinUK

May 6, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Mara -

USinUK - you mean you don’t find Ann Coulter hysterically funny!? I’m SHOCKED….LOL!

well, unintentionally funny, yes … much in the same way I think J “doughy pantload” Goldberg is … and don’t get me started on David “the heartland is Jerusalem!” Brooks

By Dave

May 6, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

UsinUK, what you said… here:

“Truth - please learn the difference between accepting and respecting someone else’s beliefs and allowing those people to turn their beliefs into legislation.”

perfect… just simply perfect… -dave

By Mara

May 6, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Copyleft - *By the way: you’ve also ASSUMED that I’m an agnostic. Where did I say that?”

When did I make any comment about your religious beliefs or lack thereof? IMHO your beliefs are your own business and I apologize if it seemed like I was speaking for you when I commented on Jake’s post.

For the record, I was voicing my own rebuttal of his statement denying the pervasivness of Christianism in the US.

Hey, lozen. (wave) Business is down so I’ve some extra time to surf.

USinUK - It’s not the beliefs that are the problem, it’s the ACTIONS that we don’t tolerate.

(applause) well said.

By Dorothy Baldwin

May 6, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Why wasn’t Condoleeaz Rice’s statement on Racism a part of the AJC news today? As a female, I guess our comments still don’t count.

By Copyleft

May 6, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Mara; I was talking to “Truth” in that part of the comment.

By lozen

May 6, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

Chris Rock says George Bush has done such a bad job it’s gonna make it hard to ever elect another f—king white man.

By Dave

May 6, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

No Dorothy….women’s words count…it’s only when a “women’s right to choose how she deals with her own body”….when her words don’t count…. Condi? Well… she’s a pawn in a neo-cons world. She’s been part of ALL evil that we have done around the world. Trust me…she’s NOT on YOUR side. She’ll gone on to make multi-millions now…cash in on speaking to the oil companies…the “think tanks”…or perhaps…go work for one of them. If she was TRULY a woman who had “good” inside of her….she would have walked away long ago. She is the same as they…bad to the core…and it had NOTHING to to with religion…it’s a moral sense of what is “right and wrong”….for as smart as she may be…as gifted….she obviously lacks her “own” sense of what is good, what ir right…and what is wrong….

By JokesOn

May 6, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Good post USinUK

Truth - please learn the difference between accepting and respecting someone else’s beliefs and allowing those people to turn their beliefs into legislation. I have no problem that there are religious people out there who believe that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. I DO have a problem with them using that as a reason to enable discrimination against gays. I have a number of friends who are anti-choice and I respect their beliefs. However, I DO have a problem when they want to impose their beliefs on me, my doctor and my access to legal medication (e.g., the Pill).

I was going to try to spell it out for them, but you did a better job than I would have.

A matter of being inclusive or exclusive. I do not mind hearing anyones beliefs, but when it is something that people want to push onto others it is unacceptable.

We actually had this debate and it stopped when that was clarified.

What confuses me is since this was covered clearly, why does it keep coming up?

The reluctance to learn, coupled by the insistence of claiming out point is the same but inverse of theirs, is annoying. Only reason I can come up with is they need to justify their positions by making ours equal to them, which is not the case.

Last time we pointed out they are always trying to pass legislation to limit people to their personal beliefs and their reply was “but none of has passed, has it?” Geeze.

BTW Gandalf (i think), we do stand for something: We the people have the right to freedom except when it stomps on other peoples freedoms!

By thoughtless columns like these are an easy mark for criticism and ridicule when the obvious is state

May 6, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

“Should commencement speeches reflect the values of a university?”

Are these two so-called journalists really serious? The AJC Editorial board must be experiencing a slow news day or something to have to start a forum to ask questions to something that is so obvious. What a dumb question and a waste of print and on-line space because COMMENCEMENT SPEECHES ARE A REFLECTION of the VALUES of a university, no matter how far-out right-wing, left-wing or sensible the speaker and his/her speech may be! That commencement speech is pretty much a telling sign of the ideology and the way it colors how the administration, faculty and community of educators on that particular campus view the world.

In addition to “Woman-to-Woman” running out of any issues of significant interest to anyone other than kool-aid drinking wingnuts and moonbats, I thought that ((((“Inappriopriate and profane comments will be edited at the discretion of the editors”)))). I guess that warning doesn’t apply anymore since this forum (and many others like it in the editorial section of the AJC)long ago ran into the journalistic ditch and has obviously become useful for little more than a breeding ground for aspiring spammers to test their repulsive links to perverted wares before invasively using them to terrorize the general public on their personal computer, something the AJC aspires to do with its “journalistic” garbage. The reason the spam probably hasn’t been edited is because in the midst of their boredom-induced diabetic shock, AJC editors discovered that the spam and lewd comments actually makes this column a more readable and entertaining waste of print and type than it would be.

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 6, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Jokes on:

You wrote:BTW Gandalf (i think), we do stand for something: We the people have the right to freedom except when it stomps on other peoples freedoms!

Excellent!

By Skeptical Empathy

May 6, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

It’s not like a haircut or a pedicure, you know, where you can walk in off the street after lunch and they squeeze you in between appointments.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

I get it guys. By your wisdom, Conservatives can have all the opinions we want, but we are simply not allowed to turn those opinions into legislation. Only liberals are allowed to do that.

Thank you all sooooo much for saying that I can have an opinion. I do feel soooo much better.

And I promise to only vote for people that you think I should. People that will only pass legislation in which you approve.

You guys are just too good to conservatives.

But seriously, if you could set back and read the close minded dictatorial nonsense you guys obviously believe . . the egotistical “my way or the highway” lack of objectivity that you spout every day.

We don’t hate people, as long as they don’t turn their opinions into legislation. LOL!!

Everyday I am more amazed at what an absolute fantasy world you guys would need to live in to actually believe the crap you post.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

USinUK

If you honestly think that conservatives have gotten a fair shake on network TV for the last 40 years, you have not been paying attention.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

This sums it up: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkzV5AIK8iM&feature=related

By Bruce

May 6, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Look out Truth you are too close to the “TRUTH” and they gonna get you…..

By JokesOn

May 6, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

I get it guys. By your wisdom, Conservatives can have all the opinions we want, but we are simply not allowed to turn those opinions into legislation. Only liberals are allowed to do that.

“…simply not allowed to turn options into legislation?” You mean restrictions, no??

Please explain what options you would like to have turned into law. I have not seen anything regarding this in your post or other posts.

By JokesOn

May 6, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

If you honestly think that conservatives have gotten a fair shake on network TV for the last 40 years, you have not been paying attention.

They are worse than politicians. They pander to the both sides without picking a side: I have yet to hear anyone on tv promoting anything controversially liberal. Nothing regarding abortion, pot, pro-universal health care…etc.

They have bashed stupidity, as it should be, but they bash both sides with that: Clinton and pot or cigars for example.

By Truth

May 6, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

JokesON

No. Opinions into legislation.

Read the proceeding posts. The common conception was that everyone believed that conservatives should have a right to have differing opinions, but the trouble was when Conservatives exercised their right to vote for the people that turned those opinions into legislation.

Many of the liberals on this blog do not understand that the other half of America has a right to shape legislation, based on their beliefs and opinions.

USinUK posted this: “Truth - please learn the difference between accepting and respecting someone else’s beliefs and allowing those people to turn their beliefs into legislation.”

We have the same rights as liberals, JokesON. We believe that our beliefs should be legislation. How dare anyone say that we shouldn’t have that right.

And then everyone pats each other on the back and the more fascist the attitudes, the more back patting there is. I have lots of liberal friends, but they are nothing like some of the people here.

By Cat Stevens

May 6, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

I listen to the wind

To the wind of my soul

Where I’ll end up well I think,

Only God really knows

.

I listen to my words but

They fall far below

I let my music take me where

My heart wants to go…

By Truth

May 6, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

JokesON

The bias in the entertainment media isn’t even close. Norman Lear, whose shows dominated the television industry of the 1970s openly admitted that he had a very strong liberal agenda in his shows. He believed that he could change perceptions in America. So at the same time Democratic Governors in the South was ordering dogs be siced on Black people, Norman Lear was writing the Archie Bunker character to be the racist and of course, instead of telling the truth about who was really committing crimes against Blacks, he made Archie a Republican.

In the news industry, about 80% of reporters and producers openly admit to being liberal. But in the entertainment industry, the writers and producers are well over 95% liberal.

Look at Comedy Central. The Cober Report? SNL?

Carson occasionally made jokes about Democrats, but even when Democrats were in the White House, he would poke at Republican lawmakers.

On his last show, he went into an unfunny rant against Dan Quail that took up 7 minutes of a 12 minute monologue.

I have considered producing a film about getting the funding for producing a film from the normal PBS funders and make the film, overtly Conservative. Overtly liberal programming is a staple on PBS. I have friends that have tried to get funding for conservative programming. The stories are as chilling as they are funny.

Again, if you can look at even the few examples I have given and see the stats about the political leanings of the people that produce TV, you simply can’t see what is obvious.

By justsayin'

May 6, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

Oh, boo hoo. I think we all should send Truth a few crying towels. He’s hurting from being kicked around by “libruls” all over the fantasy world of television. And nothing anybody says is moving him off his pity pot! He likes it there.

By JokesOn

May 6, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

We have the same rights as liberals, JokesON. We believe that our beliefs should be legislation. How dare anyone say that we shouldn’t have that right.

Legislation is reserved for supporting one opinion that was made by the founding fathers: We have certain inalienable rights.

There have been deviations (by conservatives/religious folk) in the past but those (blue) laws have been repealed on the basis stated above when challenged.

This is a basic aspect of law: the laws themselves are not based on individuals morality, but the moral principle above. Laws are passed to assure all individuals have the basic rights outlined in the constitution, not based on census of opinion.

Hence, it is not illegal to steal because the act of stealing is immoral (or because it is in the ten commandments) but because stealing takes away the right of another to own and keep property.

By Bruno

May 6, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

Although I believe the “conservative way” is best, I think it’s counterproductive to turn every moral choice into a law, especially when the punishment far exceeds the “crime”. The War on Drugs is a prime example, IMO. Many studies have concluded that the greatest “danger” of smoking pot is getting caught. In the end, I believe the enforcement costs far exceed the benefits to society.

Positive news on the job hunt: 5 interviews, 5 job offers. Keep praying for me, guys.

By lozen

May 6, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

“But seriously, if you could set back and read the close minded dictatorial nonsense you guys obviously believe . . the egotistical “my way or the highway” lack of objectivity that you spout every day.” And you set it up from your very first post (using the name Truth anyway) so that people respond to you in this way because you are so close minded, dictatorial, and holier-than-thou and SO intelligent while ALL liberals are so stupid. You are a perfect example for a psychology class on projection.

By JokesOn

May 6, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

On his last show, he went into an unfunny rant against Dan Quail that took up 7 minutes of a 12 minute monologue.

I am surprised that it was only that long. The guy had trouble not sounding dumb as a rock.

In the news industry, about 80% of reporters and producers openly admit to being liberal. But in the entertainment industry, the writers and producers are well over 95% liberal.

First, that only means that they personally are liberal. You suggesting quotas on how many libs vs cons are employed?

Second, That does not mean they are intentionally (if at all) slanting their story - although I will agree that to separate the two absolutely is inhuman. I would simply explain that conservatives should push more of their own to be journalists, but that is considered a liberal field, like teaching - i wonder why that might be?

Back to legislation: For example, there are many Muslims who work as taxi drivers and state that they have the right to refuse drunks for it is a sin to them to harbor alcohol. If your position was applied, they would be able to refuse them and that is discrimination. Maybe there are certain jobs that you or other people of strict beliefs that you alienate yourself from by creating a mutually excluding scenario?

The problem with birth control being refused by actual christian hospitals is when these same hospitals get government funding. At that point the hospital itself has created a conflict of interest, not liberals. If it was a private christian hospital I have no problem with them refusing treatment, but would like them to give full notice to patients of what they will not provide so people can make informed decisions.

When one’s restuarant automatically adds a 15-20% tip to people, blacks for example, because they have the opinion they do not tip well it is discrimination.

These are all based on the same principles outline as I described (founding fathers…etc) and no one is exempt.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Oh, boo hoo. I think we all should send Truth a few crying towels.

I just want to know if we get party hats and noise makers with this Pity Party???

Truth - you don’t like the “librul media” - then STOP READING/WATCHING IT!!! There are P-Lenty of conservative rags (Marietta Daily Journal for local, Washington Times for National, National Review, Wall Street Journal) - not to mention FOX news and loads and loads of talk radio. Don’t like the movies and TV shows - then DON’T WATCH THEM!!! No one is holding a gun to your head. Heck - turn on 24 and get over it, already.

As for Johnny Carson … criminey, he went off the air in 1992 and died a few years ago. let it go As for dedicating time to poking fun of Dan Quayle, OF COURSE HE DID - the guy was an idiot who couldn’t tell the difference between real life and teevee (hint: Murphy Brown is not a real person).

favorite Dan Quayle quote: What a waste it is to lose one’s mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. The man was 4 years of comedy GOLD, I tell ya.

Talk shows poke fun of WHOEVER is in the White House - or did you miss the 8 years of Bubba/Barbecues/Blue Dress??? Are you forgetting the fun they made of the peanut farmer??

We have the same rights as liberals, JokesON. We believe that our beliefs should be legislation. How dare anyone say that we shouldn’t have that right.

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DISCRIMINATE.

You want to believe that all gays are going to burn in hell?? I don’t agree with that opinion, but I respect your right to hold that belief. However, you do NOT have the right to then turn that belief into a law saying that someone who is gay shouldn’t live in a certain place or hold a certain kind of job or get married.

You want to believe that abortion and artificial birth control is an abomination? Again, I totally disagree with that opinion, but I respect that that issue is important to you. However, you do NOT have the right to tell my doctor what kind of procedure I can/can’t have if it’s in my best interest - NOR should you have the right to dispense a legal perscription because it conflicts with this belief of yours. If you feel that way, then get a different flippin’ job where you don’t have that conflict.

Just as cabbies shouldn’t be able to discriminate against their passengers, pharmacists shouldn’t be able to withhold certain ‘scripts.

Liberals don’t FORCE our beliefs onto you (we don’t MAKE you gay or FORCE you to take birth control or have an abortion or even make you pray to trees) - don’t force your beliefs onto us.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

NOR should you have the right to dispense a legal perscription

sorry … that should be WITHHOLD a legal perscription, not dispense …

By chuck

May 7, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

Of course I’d welcome a conservative speaker at a university—if one could be found with someone of value and interest to offer.

I’m really glad to know that we have an arbiter of all intellectual thought on the board, copyleft. I have e-mailed the Presidents of all of the colleges and universities in the United States and Canada to inform them that before they can select a speaker for ANY event at those institutions, they must first consult you for approval. I mean, after all you are so much more accomplished than a SUPREME COURT JUSTICE!!!!! Tell me, which of the following would meet your demanding standards?

George H. Nash

James W. Ceaser

George W. Carey

Harvey C. Mansfield

Michael Barone

Daniel J. Mahoney

Marvin Olasky

Allan C. Carlson

Peter Augustine Lawler

William Kristol

Barry Bercier

By Charles W. Dunn

Eduardo Velásquez

Philip Bess

William Bennett

George Will

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

USinUK has pointed out the false “equivalence” you’re trying to build, and I’ve seen the tactic used before in other arguments.

For example: “Liberals are trying to FORCE their beliefs about abortion on the rest of us! Why can’t we do the same?”

Well, no… we’re not forcing our beliefs on anyone. We’re allowing you to CHOOSE by restricting govnerment interference. That’s not the same as using government to make the choice for you. In fact, it’s not even close. Under the “LIBERAL AGENDA,” no one is FORCED

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

USinUK has pointed out the false “equivalence” you’re trying to build, and I’ve seen the tactic used before in other arguments.

For example: “Liberals are trying to FORCE their beliefs about abortion on the rest of us! Why can’t we do the same?”

Well, no… we’re not forcing our beliefs on anyone. We’re allowing you to CHOOSE by restricting govnerment interference. That’s not the same as using government to make the choice for you. In fact, it’s not even close. Under the “LIBERAL AGENDA,” no one is FORCED

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

USinUK has pointed out the false “equivalence” you’re trying to build, and I’ve seen the tactic used before in other arguments.

For example: “Liberals are trying to FORCE their beliefs about abortion on the rest of us! Why can’t we do the same?”

Well, no… we’re not forcing our beliefs on anyone. We’re allowing you to CHOOSE by restricting govnerment interference. That’s not the same as using government to make the choice for you. In fact, it’s not even close. Under the “LIBERAL AGENDA,” no one is FORCED to have an abortion; they simply have the OPTION.

See the difference?

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

Sorry about the multi-post; site was behaving oddly.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

CopyLeft -

Sorry about the multi-post; site was behaving oddly.

no, it’s YOU forcing your LIBRUL OPINIONS on us!!! ;-)

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

Liberals don’t FORCE our beliefs onto you (we don’t MAKE you gay or FORCE you to take birth control or have an abortion or even make you pray to trees) - don’t force your beliefs onto us.

Liberals may not FORCE people to take certain actions, but they certainly do all that they can to promote certain lifestyle choices, often through the force of law. E.g. Liberals support the dispensation of birth control medications to girls as young as age 11, all without their parents’ knowledge or consent. Liberals support “late-term” abortions, in which a live fetus is essentially delivered, only to be killed on the way out of the birth canal. Liberals support openly gay people to be allowed in the military, such that they will end up sleeping in close quarters with and showering with straight men who may not want to do so with someone who is sexually attracted to them.

P.S. I give you +1 points for spelling Dan Quayle’s name correctly, but have to deduct - 1 points for twice spelling prescriptions wrong. It’s been a bad week on the blog for spelling. ; > }

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

I have considered producing a film about getting the funding for producing a film from the normal PBS funders and make the film, overtly Conservative. Overtly liberal programming is a staple on PBS. I have friends that have tried to get funding for conservative programming. The stories are as chilling as they are funny.

Truth, while I feel that you are a little overboard on some of your rants this week, you are 100% correct about PBS. In fact, Pat Mitchell, who was the President of PBS for many years is the mother of a very close friend of mine (former roommate and 20+ year friend). Pat was fired a few years ago in part because of her insistence that a children’s show begin pushing a “gay agenda” by including gay characters in unlikely roles, such as two gay women farmers.

While some of the Libs here apparently believe that cultural indoctrination via TV programming isn’t a reality, it is.

P.S. In case you were wondering, Copyleft is gay. He used to post under the name 72John.

By Lyrazel

May 7, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

What a lame topic. Hopefully in a few years all commencement speakers will be outsourced overseas. Well, that is where these graduates will have to go to find employment, dontchaknow.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

Also, Truth, if you were wondering what the “good old days” on W2W were like, Tuesday was a perfect example: One-sided liberal arguments were presented with barely a rebuttal, followed by extensive “high-fiving” by the peanut gallery. I guess it makes some of them feel better about their misguided ideas….

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Bruno -

they certainly do all that they can to promote certain lifestyle choices, often through the force of law

1) no one forces 11 year old girls to get birth control

2) late term abortions are not a “lifestyle choice” - they are a medical necessity. less than 1% of abortions performed in this country and are done in the 3rd trimester and are NECESSARY sometimes, whether you like it or not. women don’t wait until they are 8.5 months pregnant then decide that they hate being fat - late-term abortions are done because there is something usually horribly wrong with the fetus. the abortions are performed to PRESERVE the health of the woman and you have NO RIGHT to tell a doctor what he should/should not do to preserve the health of his patient.

3) gay men and women have always been in the military. gay men and women shower with you in the gym. gay men and women work with you at the office. gay men and women watch the Braves with you at The Ted. are they forcing themselves on you in those places??? criminey - you’re using the exact same argument they used to segregate black soldiers during WWII - our armed forces learned to deal with it when the military was integrated, they can deal with it with gays, as well (unless you’re saying they’re brave enough to face the Taliban but not brave enough to work next to a gay man).

so, to sum up: don’t want to take birth control? then, don’t. don’t like abortions? don’t have one. don’t believe in “teh gay”, then don’t go messin with someone of the same gender. it’s just that simple.

and DANG IT on the pREscriptions!! that’s one of those words I always get wrong!

By BadSpeller

May 7, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

lit’s not forgit Tuth ez styll hing-up awn formaly suthen whyte Democrits, nohw Repibs, ays de supressars of blawck peopel.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

What a lame topic. Hopefully in a few years all commencement speakers will be outsourced overseas. Well, that is where these graduates will have to go to find employment, dontchaknow.

Though “outsourcing” has definitely caused some short-term pain for US citizens, I see it as a natural outgrowth of “globalization”, in which raw materials and manpower is used more efficiently. In the world of engineering, for example, you can hire ten highly competent engineers who reside in India for the price of one American engineer. the only way to prevent that is to enforce isolationism via high trade tariffs and labor protectionism laws.

I thought that you liberals were all about freedom of choice. So, are you for freedom, or protectionism?

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

bruno -

One-sided liberal arguments were presented with barely a rebuttal, followed by extensive “high-fiving” by the peanut gallery. I guess it makes some of them feel better about their misguided ideas…

conservatives lecturing liberals about an echo chamber??? baaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha … have you checked out your president lately? you know - the guy who speaks before hand-picked, registered republican audiences … that’s the guy … and you have the gall to lecture us??? puh-LEEZ

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

Nice try, USinUK…

(1) no one forces 11 year old girls to get birth control

In the case in question (in Maine, I believe), school counselors were given the right to “counsel” 11 year old girls and arrange for them to receive birth control pills, all without the parents’ knowledge or consent. In virtually every other area of law, children under a certain age (usually 18) are deemed to be mentally incapable of making informed decisions. As such, the line between “suggesting” and “forcing” is extremely blurry, wouldn’t you say?

(2) late term abortions are not a “lifestyle choice” - they are a medical necessity. less than 1% of abortions performed in this country and are done in the 3rd trimester and are NECESSARY sometimes

The key word here is sometimes. A late-term abortion is either medically necessary, or it’s not. Under the law permitting the procedure, no distinction is made. The biggest argument against abortion presented here on the blog is that you shouldn’t force a woman to remain pregnant if she doesn’t want to. By the third trimester, I feel that that argument is a moot point because the pregnancy is almost over anyway. As for the issue of caring for the child AFTER the birth, adoption is still a good option for those who are unable or unwilling to raise their child.

gay men and women shower with you in the gym. are they forcing themselves on you in those places???

Well, unfortunately, I’m only allowed to shower with the gay men. And, yes, many of those gay men HAVE tried to make passes and force themselves upon me over the years. In fact, I canceled my membership to Sportslife many years ago becasue the location nearest my house turned into a big gay hangout in the shower and locker room. One guy used to actually bring his lawn chair in their and park it by the showers. When my complaints to the management went unheeded, I canceled my membership.

and DANG IT on the pREscriptions!! that’s one of those words I always get wrong!

I think the key on that word is to be careful to pronounce it correctly such that the spelling follows suit naturally. That trick works as well for separate, but not so well for Wednesday.

By pennie

May 7, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

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By Bruno

May 7, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

conservatives lecturing liberals about an echo chamber??? baaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha … have you checked out your president lately? you know - the guy who speaks before hand-picked, registered republican audiences … that’s the guy … and you have the gall to lecture us??? puh-LEEZ

In case you haven’t noticed, USinUK, I’m not lacking in the gall department in any way. Would you respect me otherwise?? ; > }

And speaking of hand-picked audiences, did you get a load of the crew standing behind Hillary last night during her “victory speech”? There was a Hispanic fellow in the lower right corner of the screen, a black man in the upper left corner, a couple of old folks dead in the middle, along with another black man who was wearing boxing gloves standing right behind Hill. I also laughed at Bill, who stood behind her dutifully, all red-faced and puffy. I was really touched when he hugged both her and Chelsea. Such family togetherness…..

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Bruno -

That trick works as well for separate, but not so well for Wednesday

Separate is never a problem (2 e’s on the outside, 2 a’s in the middle)

1) school counselors were given the right to “counsel” 11 year old girls and arrange for them to receive birth control pills, all without the parents’ knowledge or consent - that still isn’t force. if a child goes to the school nurse and wants birth control (but is afraid to talk with her parents), then isn’t it better to head off a tragedy at the pass???

2) The key word here is sometimes. A late-term abortion is either medically necessary, or it’s not - sorry, bruno - I was trying to soften the blow for you with the word “sometimes”. To get a 3rd trimester abortion, you have to have at least 2 doctors agree that it’s a medical necessity, so no, they’re not done just for fun and giggles - they ARE a medical necessity. And, yes, there are problems which DO require an abortion rather than delivery - one is “water on the brain” (don’t feel like looking up the proper spelling for hydrocephelitis), another is where the baby’s muscles are completely stiff and unable to bend. Those are just a couple of examples that have been cited in Congressional testimony on the subject.

3) you’re still saying our men/women in the military are too delicate to deal with working around gays. me, I think a lot more highly of them than that.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Bruno

PBS went through a change during the 90s, thanks to Newt’s Revolution. Until 1994, it was completely infested with nothing but liberal propaganda because of the fact that only programming that was already paid for wsa allowed. The foundations that were (and still are) sponsoring the shows were dripping in liberalism and it was indeed a completely closed propaganda arm of the DNC.

Unfortunately for liberals, yet another one of their social experiments began collapsing under it’s own weight. PBS was broke and no amount of begging sessions during the latest “Why Democrats are Always Right” shows was going to save it.

Republicans step up to the plate and save PBS. (Watch the monkeys start screaming over this one) The new PBS can now accept sponsored programming, but the programming can have 8 15 second spots, 4 at the head and 4 at the tail.

These shows are distributed through one of three (now maybe four) up-link services. The shows are distributed free to any PBS local affiliate that wants to sign up for the shows.

The uplink services are very expensive and those 8 tiny commercials need to pull in some real money in order to pay producers and then the up link service, but it allows producers to hang onto the rights of their work while allowing non political and even non-liberal slanted programming to be distributed.

Now of course the people at the local affiliates who choose which programming they will run are still socialists, so much of the programming is rarely shown, but it has opened up a whole industry for film makers like myself who found it impossible to break the liberal lock-down on PBS.

But a lot of those old socialists are dying off and their replacements are seeing the value of free programming instead of paying a small fortune for the same old PBS propaganda that we have seen all these years.

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

In case you were wondering, Copyleft is gay. He used to post under the name 72John.

Bruno: You’re picking up bad habits from Chuck with the personal assumptions—which are always wrong. I’m not 72John (I don’t even know who that is), and my sexual orientation is… well, private, come to think of it.

By Clever Conservative

May 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

You liberals are the cause of everyone’s problems! You liberals this! You liberals that! You liberals always ruin everything! You liberals forced your opinions of me on the object of my affection! You liberals can’t spell! You liberals have nothing to say! You liberals suck at math! You liberals are just sideline snipers! You liberals can’t hide your identity from me! You liberals are not as clever as I am! You.. you… you… DAMN YOU LIBERALS!

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

lozen

And you set it up from your very first post

You need to understand something. Whenever I see the kind of close minded, bigoted remarks that Copyleft had started this week’s blog with, I will confront them EVERY time. It will happen every single time. And all the hysterics that you can offer will not defer me in the least from confronting a bigot. Is there anything about the above statement that you don’t understand? If there is, please let me know because I don’t want to take the time to explain this to you again. I will confront bigots, every time. Get it?

so that people respond to you in this way because you are so close minded, dictatorial, and holier-than-thou and SO intelligent while ALL liberals are so stupid.

If I am making myself sound intelligent and liberals sound stupid, I would suggest that you look closely at what YOU are saying as one of the people that I am apparently presenting as being rather stupid. If you can hold onto your emotions long enough to carry on a logical and intelligent debate, do something you have yet to do and offer such a debate instead of playing some sort of evangelical Doctor Phil. That would probably be your first step in achieving a little intellectual self confidence.

*You are a perfect example for a psychology class on projection.

Considering your lack of emotional self control, I’m sure you have spent many hours in front of mental health professionals. However that does not make you a Psychiatrist. So you might want to keep your elementary Psychology training to yourself. A real Psychiatrist would know better than to try and analyze someone from their postings on a political blog. However some poor halfwit that is desperate to try and make themselves appear less ignorant and more intelligent than they really are would take exactly that tack.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

(1) that still isn’t force. if a child goes to the school nurse and wants birth control (but is afraid to talk with her parents), then isn’t it better to head off a tragedy at the pass???

Pray tell, why is a government-hired school counselor a better judge of whether an 11 year-old needs birth control than her parents??? I agree that tragedy should be headed off a the pass—the young girl’s parents should be immediately informed that their too-young-for-sex daughter is engaging in an unhealthy, high-risk behavior. And, since the law presumes that 11 year olds aren’t mentally capable of making medical decisions for themselves, or even sexual decisions, why are you giving them so much respect in fulfilling their “wants”. Just who are they having sex with?? (Hint: a much older boy).

(2) I was trying to soften the blow for you with the word “sometimes”. To get a 3rd trimester abortion, you have to have at least 2 doctors agree that it’s a medical necessity, so no, they’re not done just for fun and giggles - they ARE a medical necessity. And, yes, there are problems which DO require an abortion rather than delivery - one is “water on the brain” (don’t feel like looking up the proper spelling for hydrocephelitis), another is where the baby’s muscles are completely stiff and unable to bend. Those are just a couple of examples that have been cited in Congressional testimony on the subject.

The word is hydrocepalus. In many cases, the defect can be determined long before the third trimester.

(3) you’re still saying our men/women in the military are too delicate to deal with working around gays. me, I think a lot more highly of them than that.

The bottom line is that military service requires forced bunkering and forced showering together. While you may not believe that the sex drive is extremely powerful in young males, you’re wrong. Heck, I’ve barely got mine under control at age 47. It’s not a matter of “delicacy” and thinking “highly” of people, it’s a practical matter, IMO. Don’t you remember all the reported (and unreported) assaults of the women soldiers on their way to the latrine late at night over in Iraq?? I think it’s best to minimize temptation in the first place under such circumstances.

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

More lies from “Truth,” I see. The partisan hatred is really inigrained in you, isn’t it?

I remember the Tomlinson hit-job that was supposed to destroy PBS by “proving” its liberal bias, and preferably replacing it with conservative bias. It was another transparent propaganda effort from the Bush administration, sorta like calling up retired generals and colonels to put them on cable-news shows as “military experts” to insist that an unnecessary, botched war was actually a GREAT idea and going just hunky-dory.

And once again, the White House propaganda stunt failed. Failed like a “Mission Accomplished” photo op. Molly Ivins (rest in peace) summed it up pretty well when it was still breaking news: http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0617-27.htm

Your problem, as Stephen Colbert pointed out, is that REALITY seems to have a liberal bias. Reporting the truth is “showing liberal bias” in your distorted prism, “Truth.” And I’m afraid you can’t blame me, liberals, or the media for that; it’s entirely your problem.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

USinUK

To get a 3rd trimester abortion, you have to have at least 2 doctors agree that it’s a medical necessity, so no, they’re not done just for fun and giggles - they ARE a medical necessity.

The problem is that BOTH doctors can be employees of the same abortion mill that will charge thousands for that procedure.

The problem with abortion mills is that pro-infanticide people want the abortion mills to continue to monitor themselves. Women receive counseling from paid employees of the death mills and in many states there is still not a waiting period of at least 24 hours before the procedure.

Fortunately, we do have good people in Congress that are simply wanting to bring the number of abortions down from the cool milliom deaths they cause every year. Of course we still do have many pro-children-death people who seem to only want as many infant deaths as possible in the name of “choice”.

But then again, those nasty conservatives are not only giving their opinions, but are making those opinions into laws.

God Bless the Children.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

OOps—I didn’t type the “h” in hydrocephalus. My bad.

You liberals are the cause of everyone’s problems! You liberals this! You liberals that! You liberals always ruin everything! You liberals forced your opinions of me on the object of my affection! You liberals can’t spell! You liberals have nothing to say! You liberals suck at math! You liberals are just sideline snipers! You liberals can’t hide your identity from me! You liberals are not as clever as I am! You.. you… you… DAMN YOU LIBERALS!

Just substitute the word “conservative” for “liberal” in the above diatribe, and you’ve got kimberly’s whole schtick in a nutshell.

Bruno: You’re picking up bad habits from Chuck with the personal assumptions—which are always wrong. I’m not 72John (I don’t even know who that is), and my sexual orientation is… well, private, come to think of it.

Well, only one poster here ever referenced Occam’s Razor before, used the term “straw man” with any frequency, and addressed people by saying “you, sir, are…” Must be all a grand coincidence, then. Why are you embarrassed to reveal your sexual orientation anyway?

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Copyleft

If I believe in freedom, do I therefore support someone’s freedom to tyrannize others? Of course not.

But you support abortions. Is there any greater tyranny than causing the death of a helpless child?

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Bruno -

And speaking of hand-picked audiences, did you get a load of the crew standing behind Hillary last night during her “victory speech”? There was a Hispanic fellow in the lower right corner of the screen, a black man in the upper left corner, a couple of old folks dead in the middle, along with another black man who was wearing boxing gloves standing right behind Hill

there is a world of difference between choosing people for a photo op and limiting people allowed into a (and I can’t stress this enough) TAXPAYER FUNDED EVENT so that ONLY Republicans are allowed to attend.

I’m not lacking in the gall department in any way. Would you respect me otherwise?? ; > }

hahaha … true … namby-pamby people bother me.

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Now, this is some funny stuff, “Truth”! Sit back and admire the hypocrisy for a second, everyone:

“So you might want to keep your elementary Psychology training to yourself. A real Psychiatrist would know better than to try and analyze someone from their postings on a political blog.”

This came exactly TWO sentences after the inevitable dumb, ad-hominem assumption: “Considering your lack of emotional self control, I’m sure you have spent many hours in front of mental health professionals.”*

Isn’t that GREAT? I mean, how often can you get someone to skewer THEMSELVES that effectively, and not even realize it? (snicker)

Best of all, “Truth” even EXPLAINS his motive: “Some poor halfwit that is desperate to try and make themselves appear less ignorant and more intelligent than they really are would take exactly that tack.”

How right you are, Truth. How very right you are. Ha! Thanks for the chuckle.

By Mara

May 7, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

remember, folks, what the difference is between “liberal” and “conservative” as described by a conservative. Basically, freedom vs. coerced obedience

By chuck: April 14, 2008 3:59 PM - “What I see as the difference is that “liberals” want people to “CHOOSE” to do the right thing even though you know deep down that they won’t, while us neo-cons want to MAKE them do the right thing whether they want to or not.”

I don’t even know why I even bother anymore, but as they say, “once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more…”

Bruno - Liberals support “late-term” abortions, in which a live fetus is essentially delivered, only to be killed on the way out of the birth canal

Oh, fercryinoutloud! Those types of abortions make up less than 1/4 if 1% of all abortions and are, almost universally, done because of medical necessity! Even “regular” late-term abortions (not ID&X’s) over, say…16 weeks of gestation is only 5% or so of the total. It’s not like most women wait until the last possible week to get this done.

We’ve been over and over and over the issue of abortion and yet still, the difference between supporting the right to have one and supporting abortion itself eludes most conservatives.

Liberals support openly gay people to be allowed in the military,

Yes, I certainly support ANY American citizens’ right to risk his or her life defending my freedom. If they’re ready, willing and able to do the job, who they find attractive shouldn’t even come up (no pun intended). Using homophobia as an excuse to exclude gays is no different than when they used racism to exclude blacks.

such that they will end up sleeping in close quarters with and showering with straight men who may not want to do so with someone who is sexually attracted to them

and you think this doesn’t already happen?! That gays aren’t already serving in the armed forces? HAHAHA!!

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Gotta run for more job interviews.

Have a “Cat Stevens” day, everyone:

Well I left my happy home to see what I could find out

I left my folk and friends with the aim to clear my mind out

Well I hit the rowdy road and many kinds I met there

Many stories told me of the way to get there

So on and on I go, the seconds tick the time out

There’s so much left to know, and I’m on the road to find out

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

JokesOn

Thanks for taking the time, but that’s just not what we were talking about. Again, read the posts I was responding to. How many people have said that conservatives can have their opinions as long as they don’t try to make those opinions law?

It wasn’t about morals or blue laws. It was just about people being open to the ideas and opinions of others, something that many liberals on this forum can’t seem to understand.

I would expect liberals to promote their opinions and ideas by their vote and I would expect conservatives to do the same thing, but apparently, most liberals here consider that wrong.

It’s not like the social issues that liberals and conservatives argue about are settled issues. The mantra of the Democratic Party is still killing over a million children a year and the reference of many on here that have reduced the value of those human lives to the value of a cockroach is disgusting. Do I kill it or do I let it live? Anyone who promotes that kind of barbarism certainly has no moral high ground to preach from.

And this reduction of the value of that life to simply a question of a woman’s right to choose is answering to the same kind of Goebbel’s style of propaganda that made the killing of 11 million victims of the Third Reich acceptable to the German population. We have already tripled that number of victims with no end in sight. And we have done it the exact same way the NAZIs did: we devalued the lives of those children with slick political campaigns and propaganda style semantics. It’s about a woman’s choice? No. it’s about a human life.

In fact, just the suggestion of trying to curb that wholesale slaughter brings about such protests from many liberals that one really wonders what kind of dark motivation might be at work.

So pardon me for not accepting the self righteousness of so many here that insist that the liberal way is the high ground. You simply cannot support the slaughter of 30,000,000 people while claiming to take that high ground.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Clever Conservative

Idiot.

By Mara

May 7, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Damn it!! It took me so long to write and edit my last post that USinUK got there WAYYY before me and wrote much more succinctly…damn.

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Bruno: I’d think you, of all people, would understand a reluctance to reveal personal information on a public forum.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Copyleft

You appear a little more desperate than usual this morning. LOL

BTW, I have either directed or been a segment producer for three different national series that are presently running on Newt’s new PBS so pardon me for simply laughing at your slobbering lack of knowledge about the way PBS works.

But that quote from a comedian sure set me straight. LOL!! The perfect sourse for you.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

truth -

Is there any greater tyranny than causing the death of a helpless child?

yes, treating the woman who is carrying it as an incubator and removing her free will. THAT is worse.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Mara -

Damn it!! It took me so long to write and edit my last post that USinUK got there WAYYY before me and wrote much more succinctly…damn.

we could continue to present them with the facts until we are blue in the face - they still won’t listen.

but, the more people shouting it to the rooftops, the better!

By Abortion Mill

May 7, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

We do not specialize in third-trimester abortions, as those are performed only after problems are discovered during standard prenatal care. Also, we do not take walk-ins. Our services require an appointment and are performed in the morning hours when the patient’s stomach is empty.

By Copyleft

May 7, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

In addition to the fact that my sexuality is irrelevant to anything being discussed this week, it also constitutes antoher example of the ad-hominem argument: “You’re only saying that because you’re gay/black/Jewish/whatever.”

You’ll see a lot of similar fallacies, including the well-known strawman, in online debates.

Guilt by association: “The Communist Manifesto also mentioned a progressive tax structure, so anyone who support progressive taxation is a communist!”

Tu quoque: “You complain about conservative bias on Fox, but all the OTHER types of media are biased too!”

Shooting the messenger: “I can’t believe the media printed that story about prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib! The media is obviously giving aid and comfort to the enemy!”

Straw man: “How can atheists claim to care about the crime rate? If you don’t believe in God, then anything goes and we should all steal, rape, and murder all the time.”

The fact that someone else has heard of these fallacies too hardly means I’m that person. In fact, making that assumption is yet ANOTHER type of fallacy!

By Too Funny

May 7, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

but, the more people shouting it to the rooftops, the better!

never mind that conservatives ALWAYS die off as the world around them progresses. I may have just coined a new phrase, CSC, the clutching straws conservatives.

By Clever Conservative

May 7, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

It’s different when I do it! It’s not the same thing as when you loser liberals do it!

By JokesOn

May 7, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

How many people have said that conservatives can have their opinions as long as they don’t try to make those opinions law?

If those opinions do not reflect the basis that our leagal system is built it is moot - for either cons or libs. No one I see here is promoting that notion for libs, but cons in general are.

It wasn’t about morals or blue laws. It was just about people being open to the ideas and opinions of others, something that many liberals on this forum can’t seem to understand.

Aside from a few posts, all the libs on here say they are open to hearing cons, just not them pushing their values into laws which leads to my blue law comment. You generalize a couple post to the rest of the blog.

In fact, just the suggestion of trying to curb that wholesale slaughter brings about such protests from many liberals that one really wonders what kind of dark motivation might be at work.

The only (legally) valid argument is one of rights and that is one that very difficult. I have to side with the currently matured human in that case since they have more to lose.

Calling names and degrading yourself is not going to win friends or discussions man.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

USinUK

yes, treating the woman who is carrying it as an incubator and removing her free will. THAT is worse.

Worse for who? No matter what, the woman survives, the baby dies, dead, gone, thrown in a dumpster. No hopes, no dreams. Dead.

Is it better for our society that we have slaughtered a tenth of our population? How many doctors, researchers even true women leaders that wouldn’t promise to lower gas prices by taxing the oil companies could we have living among us?

You are right about shouting fromm the roof tops. But what are you shouting? Let’s kill a second tenth of our population?

They have figured out what causes pregnancy ya know.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

Abortion Mill

We do not specialize in third-trimester abortions, as those are performed only after problems are discovered during standard prenatal care. Also, we do not take walk-ins. Our services require an appointment and are performed in the morning hours when the patient’s stomach is empty.

So what do you do with the decimated bodies of the babies that you kill? Still throwing them in the dumpster, or is Atlanta’s new sewer system the new disposal method? Do you flush em now?

Isn’t so good that they are so small? You can flush them with other things of that size that you probably put more importance to.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

Truth -

They have figured out what causes pregnancy ya know.

yep, and until they have a 100% effective form of birth control which is NOT surgical and can be reversed, there will always be unwanted preganancies.

Worse for who? No matter what, the woman survives

really? you mean teenage girls have never been killed by their parents when the parent found out the girl was pregnant? husbands have never killed their pregnant wives?? boyfriends have never beaten their girlfriends???

sorry - I know you have deep-rooted issues with abortion, but as long as women have been getting pregnant, they have been figuring out ways to AVOID pregnancy and ways to END that pregnancy. all that happens when you prohibit it is that the woman dies as well because they either use coat hangers or knitting needles or they go to a back alley butcher who doesn’t care about sterilized instruments.

Is it better for our society that we have slaughtered a tenth of our population?

hrm. I guess ALL children available for adoption are living in warm and loving homes now. I guess ALL children are taken care of. I guess ALL children are well-fed and educated. Until we can take care of the ones currently here, I don’t think we need to be adding to their numbers.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

JokesOn

The abortion issue is very important to me. I do believe in Karma, and we are simply killing too many people.

When people say that it is only an issue of choice for the woman, it ignores that fact that a human life is at stake. The semantics of whether or not that mass of tissue ios human is no more relevant than whether you or I are similar masses of tissues.

The abortion industry is making billions. I’m tired of their lack of regulation and I’m tired of people trying to feign some sort of sick nobility at the deaths of millions.

By Judge Scaliwag

May 7, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

To wit: The sperm dispenser has the right to petition this court to allow the aborted 8-week fetus to be implanted in his own rectum for the duration of the gestational period, until such time as the fetus develops into an independent entity, at which time the government will make all decisions regarding the future of said entity.

By Backwords

May 7, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

The war issue is very important to me. I do believe in Karma, and we are simply killing too many people.

When people say that it is only an issue of defense, it ignores that fact that a human life is at stake. The semantics of whether or not that mass brown people born in another country are human beings is no more relevant than whether you or I are similar masses of tissues.

The industrial war machine industry is making billions. I’m tired of their lack of regulation and I’m tired of people trying to feign some sort of sick nobility at the deaths of millions.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

The abortion issue is very important to me. I do believe in Karma, and we are simply killing too many people.

But that is not the topic, just an example of your values clouding the subject and that particular item on the list of value based legislation you would like to pass.

If you and other cons care so deeply about the issue you would be pumping $$$ into funding for alternative methods that would not require judgment by another person or a gatekeeper. yet, you (as a group) promote abstinence only programs and other archaic means of bc that have been proven not to be successful.

the baby dies, dead, gone, thrown in a dumpster. No hopes, no dreams. Dead.

You do not know that they are gone forever - or end up in dumpsters (that is what happens when they are born by a scared 15ish yo btw). Your emotional believe that they are wasted, but you do not KNOW that and neither do I or anyone else for that matter.

So, once again your emotional belief is driving your judgment and not your adherence to what makes this country great, yet extremely difficult sometimes.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I know you have a good heart and you really mean to look at this issue from a fair perspective, but the abortion industry is the most unregulated medical industry in our country..

I have a lot of issues with the death of my child, but it is hard to see that a waiting period of only 24 hours would have saved my child. Fair and honest counseling from someone that did not directly profit from the abortion could have saved my child. Two simple regulations that could have made me a Father of three instead of two, but those fair and honest regulations are fought tooth and nail from pro-abortionists.

There HAS to be changes and this insistence that there are none is costing us in ways that we can only imagine in our worst nightmares.

By Bruce

May 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

“really? you mean teenage girls have never been killed by their parents when the parent found out the girl was pregnant? husbands have never killed their pregnant wives?? boyfriends have never beaten their girlfriends???”

So your saying that legalizing abortion stopped these senseless killings? No, it still happens so not only are the teenagers, wifes and girlfriends being killed but millions of innocent babies are killed too.

And lets not forget the fact the most, yes I said MOST, abortions are for convenience and no other reason.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Backwords

The difference is that most of the Republicans in Congress did not vote for abortions. Most of the Democrats voted to go to war.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Truth -

like I said, I know you have deep-rooted personal feelings about this, but this comment:

the abortion industry is the most unregulated medical industry in our country.

is so wrong, it would be funny if the subject wasn’t so serious.

Regulations clinics have to deal with include zoning, biohazardous waste, the same medical personnel regulations all doctor’s offices have, the same records regulations all doctor’s offices have - PLUS, they have restrictions on what they can say (which other doctor’s offices do NOT have) - AND, many states are requiring things like sonagrams and 24-hour mandatory waiting periods (because they think that women just stumble into the clinics and have an abortion before they even know where they are).

Not to mention, let’s talk about the insurance they have to carry because so many religious nutcases are shooting the personnel and bombing the offices - they also need escorts because of “sidewalk counselors” who yell obscenities at the patients.

and you think that clinics have it easy??? you think they’re less regulated than chiropractors and laser eye surgeries??? sorry, Truth, but you couldn’t be more wrong on this issue.

look, from what you said last week about your first wife, I can tell you that the scenario you described doesn’t happen today because it can’t. women can’t just drive up to a clinic and have a D&C on demand. and, let me tell you, counselors go WELL out of their way to make sure that it is what the woman wants and that she is SURE about it and isn’t being coerced.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

JokesOn

I think about all of that. I wrote what I expected of the afterlife earlier this week. I hope they are not wasted, just as I hope I will continue to exist after I die.

I can almost accept the deaths. My new kitten is now big enough to start bringing in dead chipmunks and moles and it is hard seeing that death is a part of life. But we are just killing far too many of our own.

Minorities are now speaking out against the massive percentage of brown and black babies that are being aborted. Good for them. They need to speak out. It’s killing us all, but it is REALLY killing them.

Yes there are women that are killed and babies found dead in dumpsters. But not a million a year. I just want it to slow down, for God’s sake. Is that so wrong that I simple want LESS children killed?

By Judge Scaliwag

May 7, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

If anyone knows any reason these two should not wed, speak now or forever hold your piece.

With the authority vested in me by the people of these united blogs, I now pronounce Bruno and Truth to be husband and wife, alternating positions on even and odd numbered days. Since this court is pro-life, these two must begin reproducing immediately. They will be responsible for their own medical bills and those of their unborn child. The good reverend chuck will execute court-ordered visits thrice weekly to ensure proper upbringing and education.

What this court has joined together, let no liberal set asunder! Amen.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

Judge Scaliwag

Your problem is that you consider men as sperm dispensers and human babies as turds to be flushed down the toilet.

But please remember that you are the one that thinks like that, and doesn’t that make you proud?

By Mara

May 7, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

once again I will offer what I consider a fair and just compromise on the issue of abortion -

1st Trimester - ulimited access

2nd Trimester - access limited to cases where the mothers health is compromised…including her mental health.

3rd Trimester - access ONLY if the mothers life is endangered.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Bruce -

So your saying that legalizing abortion stopped these senseless killings?

I’m not saying that any more than Truth is saying that abortions have made every child a wanted child.

The point is that, if you think the cases listed above happen now, wait until you make abortion illegal - you’ll see it a lot more often.

MOST, abortions are for convenience and no other reason

“convenience” applies to parking spaces and 1-hour dry cleaning. an unwanted pregnancy goes a little beyond “inconvenient” - let’s try traumatizing. let’s try life-altering. in some cases, life-threatening.

so, while you may like to think that we wimmen folk just run around, getting knocked up and then blithely schlep our pregnant butts down to the clinic for a quick suction, that’s not the case - and it is SO insulting when people use phrases like “convenience” to frame this issue.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Well, that had to be one of the shortest interviews in history. 90 seconds into the affair I stood up and said I wasn’t interested in working for an insurance mill. The guy didn’t seem to take it very well.

remember, folks, what the difference is between “liberal” and “conservative” as described by a conservative. Basically, freedom vs. coerced obedience

Give me a break, Mara. chuck, the author of your referenced definition, isn’t a conservative by any stretch of the word. He’s a closed-minded religious wacko who supports fascism. I know you can do better than that. True conservatives support choice at every level, but also oppose ideological indoctrination by the far left. Especially forced indoctrination, like the current “diversity training” required by many schools and jobs.

Yes, I certainly support ANY American citizens’ right to risk his or her life defending my freedom. If they’re ready, willing and able to do the job, who they find attractive shouldn’t even come up (no pun intended). Using homophobia as an excuse to exclude gays is no different than when they used racism to exclude blacks.

Sans the requirement to share sleeping and bathing facilities, I would be with you, Mara. The male sex drive is nearly uncontrollable, however, such that it is an issue, IMO. For the same reason, I am opposed to opposite sex guards in prisons. If you were caught for a DUI, would you want some male guard ogling you as you bathed or used the toilet??

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Chiropractors and eye clinics do not end the lives of human beings, intentionally. And my first wife did not stumble into an abortion clinic because she did not know where she was.

Please do not ask me to trust a multi-billion dollar industry to self regulate. We need 24 hour waiting periods. Pregnancy is some women cause enormous emotional swings. Fair counseling is desperately needed and I will not trust people who will financially benefit from the procedure to offer that fair counseling.

My sister lives in a small farm community. An abortion doctor built a 26 million dollar house across the road from them. I know a lot of doctors and I don’t know any of them that live in a 26 million dollar house.

If you honestly think that it is simply about a woman’s right to choose, you are again, not paying attention.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

false “equivalence”

REALITY seems to have a liberal bias

the inevitable dumb, ad-hominem assumption:

antoher example of the ad-hominem argument: “You’re only saying that because you’re gay/black/Jewish/whatever.”

If you’re not 72John, then I’m Barack Obama.

BTW, I’m glad you finally learned how to spell “ad hominem” correctly. Before I came on board, you used to spell it with a “u”.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

Mara -

2nd Trimester - access limited to cases where the mothers health is compromised…including her mental health.

so, poor women who live in states like Louisiana where there is only ONE clinic should be forced to carry to term if they can’t save up enough money to travel to the clinic, pay for the hotel because they have to wait 24 hours and the cost of the procedure within the 6-ish weeks after they figure out they’re pregnant???

3rd Trimester - access ONLY if the mothers life is endangered

so, if the woman could become sterile by carrying to term, she should still be forced to carry on with the pregnancy? if there is no chance the baby would live more than 24 hours after birth, then she should be forced to carry on with the pregnancy? the HEALTH of the woman should be as important as the life of the fetus (and, yes, that includes mental well-being, as well)

By Mara

May 7, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

Truth - I just want it to slow down, for God’s sake. Is that so wrong that I simple want LESS children killed?

in that case you should be pushing your conservative brethren to support comprehensive sex ed and universal access to birth control. The liberal mantra on abortion has ALWAYS been “safe, legal and RARE”. That’s why WE advocate factual education and “women’s” issues like free childcare, flex-work, family leave and the like.

The evidence seems to indicate that conservatives are less interested in preventing pregnancies and/or helping new parents succeed than they are in wagging fingers and moralizing.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

If you and other cons care so deeply about the issue you would be pumping $$$ into funding for alternative methods that would not require judgment by another person or a gatekeeper. yet, you (as a group) promote abstinence only programs and other archaic means of bc that have been proven not to be successful.

JokesOn—I can’t answer for other conservatives, but I believe the “abstinence” movement was in response to 30+ years of the “promiscuity” movement.

I appreciate your logical analysis earlier this week in which you explained that the basis for restriction of freedom within our laws occurs when other freedoms are compromised. In the case of abortion, however, you are beginning with the value judgment that a fetus has no rights, such that the decision of the mother trumps all other concerns.

Hope all is well with you and your family.

By Clever Conservative

May 7, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

You are forgetting that women only matter in the ways that we decide you do. Liberals have you thinking that your lives and futures are important. Someone need to teach you how to keep sweet, sister.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Truth -

An abortion doctor built a 26 million dollar house across the road from them. I know a lot of doctors and I don’t know any of them that live in a 26 million dollar house

ohmygod. tell me you don’t really believe that. please, tell me you are not that gullible. fercryingoutloud, most houses that celebrities live in in LA don’t cost that much … http://celebrity.lovetoknow.com/Celebrity_Houses)… and they’re in LA - forget about a MUCH less expensive farming community.

while I know you mean well, come ON.

Chiropractors and eye clinics do not end the lives of human beings

sorry, but that wasn’t your point - you said that clinics are the least regulated - and you are incorrect.

We need 24 hour waiting periods. Pregnancy is some women cause enormous emotional swings

women don’t just find out they’re pregnant and walk into the clinic to get an abortion on the same day. they can’t. there IS time beforehand and a lot of thought. Like I said earlier, the scenario you described with your first wife just can’t happen today.

If you honestly think that it is simply about a woman’s right to choose, you are again, not paying attention

yes. this is about a woman’s right to choose. this is about a woman’s right to control her physical, financial and emotional future.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Mara

I’m probably closer to your restrictions than anyone else, but I would offer a 21st century alteration.

I believe the real sin (for no better word) is when we kill a self aware human, i.e. a human with an active brain wave. Brain waves are easily detectable, even from a first trimester fetus. Most such brain waves start around the 3rd to 4th months into the pregnancy, even though some have been detected as early as two months.

So the alteration is not to set a standard time to the restrictions, (First, second, third trimester) but should be defendant upon a brain wave scan, practically eliminating the occasional killing of a thinking individual.

The times would be very close to the same as you stated, but not in every case.

Killing an unthinking fetus is still not the perfect solution, but I believe it would decrease the number of abortions significantly, if for no other reason, it would educate the populous to the fact that a fetus is in fact a human being.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

By the same logic as applied to the teaching of birth control methods in school, maybe we should start including bong demonstrations as part of the anti-drug programs as well. After all, there’s no reason to waste good weed, right??

Obviously, any reasonably intelligent person is all for the teaching of facts, but when the presentation of the facts becomes a de facto endorsement of unhealthy behavior, the line becomes very clouded, IMO.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

Mara

I can’t argue with what you said about conservatives approach to the sex issue except I think Bruno hit a grand slam when he said *I can’t answer for other conservatives, but I believe the “abstinence” movement was in response to 30+ years of the “promiscuity” movement.”

I also understand that the mantra is safe legal and RARE, but one tenth of our population over these few short years and averaging close to a million a year is not rare. It may be a goal, but it certainly isn’t being achieved.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

in that case you should be pushing your conservative brethren to support comprehensive sex ed and universal access to birth control. The liberal mantra on abortion has ALWAYS been “safe, legal and RARE”. That’s why WE advocate factual education and “women’s” issues like free childcare, flex-work, family leave and the like.

The evidence seems to indicate that conservatives are less interested in preventing pregnancies and/or helping new parents succeed than they are in wagging fingers and moralizing.

Mara—If you start with the assumption that there are good people on both sides of the political aisle, you might understand the conservative viewpoint on sex ed, etc. a little better without the demonization.

The problem with all the solutions to unwanted pregnancy that you’ve listed is that they are all government-based solutions. There are many of us on the “conservative” side who believe also that abortion should be legal, but rare, who concurrently believe that returning autonomy to families is the most effective solution to the problem. All of the solutions you listed have the effect of enabling young girls to have sex before they are ready, without facing any consequences. Just my opinion, of course.

P.S. You never answered regarding whether you would be comfortable with a male guard ogling female prisoners.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

love ya, darlin’, but I’m calling you out on this one:

By the same logic as applied to the teaching of birth control methods in school, maybe we should start including bong demonstrations as part of the anti-drug programs as well

1) drug use is illegal. sex isn’t.

2) kids will hopefully NEVER take drugs. kids have a nearly 100% chance of having sex SOMETIME in their life, so we should educate them on how to keep themselve safe and healthy as well as how to PLAN THEIR FAMILIES for when they are READY to have kids.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Someone need to teach you how to keep sweet, sister.

Too bad you didn’t learn how to keep it zipped, or maybe you would have a better selection of men to choose from now.

By Mara

May 7, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Bruno - Sans the requirement to share sleeping and bathing facilities, I would be with you, Mara. The male sex drive is nearly uncontrollable, however, such that it is an issue

so why don’t we hear about mass rapes in the British armed forces since they allow gays to serve openly? 24 foreign nations, including Israel, Britain and other allies in the fight against terrorism, let gays serve openly, with none reporting assault, harrassment, morale or recruitment problems.

as for the “shower argument”, I suggest this article - http://www.thegaymilitarytimes.com/070410Steinman.html

money quote - “The cultural norm in this country has always been: men shower with men, and women shower with women. It is unusual, even for opposite sex couples, married or otherwise, to shower together as a part of normal, daily life (excepting when it’s part of sexual play). This means that it’s quite rare for men to shower with women, but extremely common for men to shower with other men, and women to shower with other women. Thus gay men have been showering with straight men all along; and lesbians have been showering with straight women. To a gay man or woman, it’s not a unique situation to shower with someone of the same gender. Consequently, instances of ogling, misbehavior and harassment are relatively rare. Reducing this fact to a sound bite, the gay servicemember would say, “Been there, done that, no big deal.”

once again, let me point out that gays are already serving! They’re already showering and sleeping in proximity to hetero soldiers. They’re already fighting beside them, drinking with them, and mustering with them. They are, in every sense, as professional in behavior as their non-gay brothers-in-arms. Do you really think that letting them serve openly instead of having to hide is going to substantially change their behavior?

By Truth

May 7, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this

USinUK

OK, let’s cut to the chase. Why can’t it happen today? If there is no 24 hour waiting period and the only counseling is from a pro-abortionist, why can’t a woman believe she is carrying the child of a cheating husband and walk into an abortion clinic and have the procedure done, just like my first wife did.

What is to stop that from happening?

The only difference between then and now is the disposal methods. My child was either thrown in a dumpster or flushed. Now the aborted fetuses are burned by a contractor. (This will be the last I talk about this. THIS really bothers me)

I have no problem with Hollywood stars living in 26 million dollar homes. I have no problem with ME living in a 26 million dollar home. (If only it were true) The point I was making is that the abortion industry is HUGE money. Death pays and pays large.

I still say they are the least regulated medical field in the country. Landscapers are regulated for bio-hazard disposal. That’s nothing.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

free childcare, flex-work, family leave and the like

sex ed and free childcare are the only government solutions Mara mentioned … flex-work is private sector (no government involved) as is family leave. no taxpayer money going to either of those.

now, if you don’t like it because it’s a mandate, well, then you’d probably like to repeal child labor laws, the 40-hour work week and all safety laws, as well (hooray! a return to the Triangle Shirt Waste factory disaster)

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

I believe the real sin (for no better word) is when we kill a self aware human, i.e. a human with an active brain wave. Brain waves are easily detectable, even from a first trimester fetus. Most such brain waves start around the 3rd to 4th months into the pregnancy, even though some have been detected as early as two months.

Thanks for the shout, Truth. Once again, what is extremely problematic regarding unrestricted abortion is that, from my viewpoint, the rights of two individuals are at stake, and not just one as the “liberals” seem to believe.

I understand that as a man, I can’t become pregnant. However, almost every girl/woman I knew who had an abortion did so mostly as a form of too-late birth control. There has to be a better way.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Mara -

you forgot the isreali army - and I don’t think ANY of us would think THEY’RE a bunch of wimps!

By Truth

May 7, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

Clever Conservative

STILL an idiot.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

USinUK—I greatly appreciate the love—and right back at ya’!

drug use is illegal. sex isn’t.

Sorry, but sex before a certain age certainly IS illegal. Especially for 11 year olds.

kids will hopefully NEVER take drugs. kids have a nearly 100% chance of having sex SOMETIME in their life, so we should educate them on how to keep themselve safe and healthy as well as how to PLAN THEIR FAMILIES for when they are READY to have kids.

My guess is that almost all kids (people) use drugs at some point in life. Of course, I lump prescription drugs in with the illegal variety, since the body ultimately can’t distinguish the difference. One of my ongoing arguments with my Dominican friend is over the fact that she looks down her nose at pot-smokers, but has no qualms about popping Tylenol and other OTC drugs without a second thought.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Truth -

I still say they are the least regulated medical field in the country. Landscapers are regulated for bio-hazard disposal. That’s nothing.

and you can keep saying it until the cows come home - that doesn’t make it true. they are, in fact, MORE regulated than most medical fields - with state legislatures passing more and more requirements every year (even things like EVERY patient MUST have a sonagram before an abortion - whether they want one or not). Sorry, but abortion is the one medical field where EVERYone wants to “put their oar in” and tell the doctor how to do his/her job.

Why can’t it happen today?

1) because you can’t get a same-day appointment

2) because there are a number of states with only 1 clinic - many with fewer than 10 - so you not only need to wait for an appointment, you have to calculate travel time, as well. women just don’t enter into this decision as lightly as you think.

3) because, whether you want to believe it or not, the personnel who work in clinics aren’t paid by the abortion - they get no annual bonus depending on the number of women they crank though the system. just like any other medical profession, people who work in clinics (from the receptionist to the doctor) CARE ABOUT THEIR PATIENTS - they’re not there to make a mint, they’re there to provide a necessary service.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Mara

Gays in the military? I don’t see a big problem.

Gays as leaders in the boy scouts? Big problem.

When my son was a teenager, I would not have allowed him to spend the night in the woods with a gay man anymore than I would have allowed my teenaged daughter to spend the night in the woods with a heterosexual man.

Adults having sex with teens is illegal because of the power an adult has over any child. That power is present with everyone.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

now, if you don’t like it because it’s a mandate, well, then you’d probably like to repeal child labor laws, the 40-hour work week and all safety laws, as well (hooray! a return to the Triangle Shirt Waste factory disaster)

Frankly, I think most labor laws are a pile of you know what. I started working full-time at age 11, and I’m damn glad my employers didn’t pay any attention to the child labor laws. I needed the money.

As for OSHA laws and Americans With Disabilities laws, don’t get me started. In most cases, the enforcement of those laws ends up being silly.

Gotta run on the next round of interviews. Enjoyed chewing the fat with you.

By Clever Conservative

May 7, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Men don’t need to “keep it zipped.” We are different. If you women learned to behave and do as we say, we wouldn’t be forced to cheat on you.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

Sorry, but sex before a certain age certainly IS illegal. Especially for 11 year olds.

and are we teaching 11 year olds how to use a condom?? no. sex ed is primarily in high school, not elementary

I understand your problem with the Maine law - and, I wish that EVERY kid felt like they could talk with their parent about sex (and drugs and all the other things they have to deal with). But they don’t. And, the minute kids feel like they can’t talk with a trusted adult because that man/woman is going to go talking to their parents, then they will only talk with other (clueless) kids.

I’d rather have SOME adult take care of the kid than the kid feeling on her own and left to her own devices.

By Lyrazel

May 7, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

By chuck

May 7, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

…that still isn’t force. if a child goes to the school nurse and wants birth control (but is afraid to talk with her parents), then isn’t it better to head off a tragedy at the pass???

Yet you would be AGAINST counselling that child to NOT have sex, and you would be AGAINST that counsellor taking the child to her parents to inform them as to what their daughter was doing. What happened to “It Takes A Village”? Are you saying that it ISN’T harmful to an 11 year old girl to be sexually active? What if her “partner” is 17? Or is that something the counsellor shouldn’t ask? Here’s another question. Would you have been afraid to tell your parents if you were sexually active as an 11 year old? WHAT CHILD WOULDN’T BE? Children are ALWAYS afraid to tell their parents when they are doing something they aren’t supposed to be doing. SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE GETTING IN BETWEEN PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN??!!?!?!

You libs are getting more and more dangerous in your whacko ideology. Scary stuff.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Gays as leaders in the boy scouts? Big problem.

For the record, I had a church-based camp counselor try to molest me and several other boys when I was 8. He proposed a “sleeping contest” to see who could pretend they were asleep the best. Of course, I peeked, and saw him grab the crotch of one of my friends. I was wide-awake after that, which stopped the “contest”. I also had a gay guy try to attack me while hitch-hiking once at age 12. They’re definitely out there.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

okay … heading out to dinner …

in the spirit of all the folks who like to post lyrics, here’s the song by Duffy that’s been in my head all day

When I get to Warwick Avenue meet me by the entrance of the tube we can talk things over a little time but promise me you won’t stay by the light

When I get to Warwick Avenue please drop the past and be true don’t think we’re okay just because I’m here you hurt me bad but I won’t shed a tear

I’m leaving you for the last time baby you think you’re loving but you don’t love me and I’ve been confused outta’ my mind lately you think you’re loving but I want to be free Baby you hurt me

have a good night!!!

By Mara

May 7, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

USinUK - so, poor women who live in states like Louisiana where there is only ONE clinic should be forced to carry to term if they can’t save up enough money to travel to the clinic, pay for the hotel because they have to wait 24 hours and the cost of the procedure within the 6-ish weeks after they figure out they’re pregnant???

Huh? 6 weeks into a pregnancy is STILL well within the 1st trimester of gestation (3 months=12 weeks), therefore within the “unlimited access” window. Besides which, “unlimited access”, IMO, would mean that hospitals recieving government funding would be expected to offer FULL obstetric services or lose their funding. “Unlimited access” would also mean no waiting period, no coercive lectures, no forced sonograms etc.

so, if the woman could become sterile by carrying to term, she should still be forced to carry on with the pregnancy? if there is no chance the baby would live more than 24 hours after birth, then she should be forced to carry on with the pregnancy? the HEALTH of the woman should be as important as the life of the fetus (and, yes, that includes mental well-being, as well)

um, shouldn’t all these problems be already be diagnosed by the sixth month? And if not diagnosed, shouldn’t they at least be indicated as a possibility? I’d certainly be willing to accept some sort of “predictive waiver” when the doctor has concerns about the viability of the fetus or the continued health of the mother moving into the third trimester.

And certainly agree that her MENTAL health is as important as her physical well-being, I was merely offering a “sound-bite” compromise. The actual legislation would, of course, address these types of issues.

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Men don’t need to “keep it zipped.” We are different. If you women learned to behave and do as we say, we wouldn’t be forced to cheat on you.

Serious question for you: If you are so confident of your support for women’s sexual “freedom”, why are you so worried about other people’s opinions about you. Frankly, as long as I’m not harming another individual, I don’t give a rat’s a* WHAT anyone thinks about me or my choices in life.

You are a beautiful person. Enjoy it.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

I had a church-based camp counselor try to molest me and several other boys when I was 8.

that’s called pedophilia, not homosexuality. BIG difference.

By USinUK

May 7, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

Mara -

Huh?

most women don’t figure out they are pregnant until they are about 6 weeks gone. my point is that they would have another 6 weeks (bringing us to 12 weeks, the end of their first trimester) to pull together enough money to travel, stay in a hotel, and then pay for the service. in fact, the majority of 2nd trimester abortions are done in the earliest part of the 2nd trimester for just this sort of reason (access).

shouldn’t all these problems be already be diagnosed by the sixth month

no, not necessarily.

By Mara

May 7, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

Bruno - “All of the solutions you listed have the effect of enabling young girls to have sex before they are ready, without facing any consequences”

I rest my case vis-à-vis conservatives being more interested in punishment than prevention.

Truth – “I also understand that the mantra is safe legal and RARE, but one tenth of our population over these few short years and averaging close to a million a year is not rare.”

No it isn’t. We liberals have been trying but conservatives consistently block our fact-based sex-ed programs in favor of “Just say NO to sex” and hyped-up boogeyman half-truths , they strangle the funding for contraceptive services and vilify family planning clinics. They support the right of pharmacists not to dispense contraception if they think the woman might not be “decent”. Heck, they even support the right of “rape crisis” councilors to refuse to offer emergency contraception after an assault. They protest making insurance companies that pay for Viagra also cover Ortho-Novum and basically go out of their way to make getting pregnant a lot easier than NOT getting pregnant. Part of making abortion RARE is by making unplanned pregnancies rare. But as you see from Bruno’s quote, he’s worried that young girls will have sex “without facing any consequences”.

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 7, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Mara, why limit abortion till the 3rd trimester? Why not allow abortion until age 3 or 4?

By JokesOn

May 7, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

you are beginning with the value judgment that a fetus has no rights,

Never said that and moreover I qualified my statement: “I have to side with the currently matured human in that case since they have more to lose.” I do not come to this position without considering the unborn child as you state.

Yes there are women that are killed and babies found dead in dumpsters. But not a million a year. I just want it to slow down, for God’s sake.

If you think removing abortion as an option would reduce that number I think you are mistaken. They will fill up from kids and desperate women taking care of it themselves for birthing and dumping.

Your bias at work (i mean this without being sarcastic): Gays as leaders in the boy scouts? Big problem.

What do you think the percentage of straight men physically abusing kids are compared to gays? Your position would mean no men should work at the local ymca since they would sexually abuse the girls as well

By Bruce

May 7, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

“The point is that, if you think the cases listed above happen now, wait until you make abortion illegal - you’ll see it a lot more often.”

What a crock! I don’t think they still happen they DO happen. And of course the one responsible would not be punished for the murder either?

But when an unwanted child is killed who is punished? Just the opposite, the woman is praised and glorified. The reason of convinence still out weighs necessity.

” “convenience” applies to parking spaces and 1-hour dry cleaning. an unwanted pregnancy goes a little beyond “inconvenient” - let’s try traumatizing. let’s try life-altering. in some cases, life-threatening.”

If abortion is so traumatizing why are there so many preformed every year and that number continues to increase? In some cases more than once per woman.

As for unwanted children, why are so many Americans going overseas to adopt children? Because the laws on adoption are so complicated here that by the time you get through all the paperwork the newborn you are trying to adopt has graduated from college.

I am not saying women should be nothing more than baby machines but I do say they should be resposible for their actions. And no having an abortion is not the responsible thing.

By Dave

May 7, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

USinIK said: ” I guess ALL children available for adoption are living in warm and loving homes now. I guess ALL children are taken care of. I guess ALL children are well-fed and educated. Until we can take care of the ones currently here, I don’t think we need to be adding to their numbers.”

I agree….i soooooooo love the “birthing clinic set up around the metro atlanta area…talking girls out of having abortions…tell them they will be taken care of…and after the baby is born…within 2 months they are kicked out into the street with the baby made to feel like dirt…no job, no money..and living off get this…WELFARE!

Best thing is…. this is a “FACT” my friends… “LIBERALS” adopt children over 2 to 1 vs. republicans…it;s a friggin’ FACT>… so….right to lifers…look it up…and EXPLAIN why…you abandon the babies you feel NEED to be born…

and on top of that…you have NO PROBLEM with “collateral damage” of innocent Iraqi’s during the war… is it because they are Muslim? If they were babtists…would you STILL support the bullets and bombs?

Either way…explain why it is…that LIBERALS (our BADGE of HONOR these days)…adopt twice as many kids…. go ahead…tell us why you think there’s something “wrong” with the “little b*******”…..

I’m waiting….

dave

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 7, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

If all you gals would keep you legs crossed, we wouldn’t have all these abortion issues.

By Dave

May 7, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

HEY GANDOLF!! Please explain why MORE pastors and priests have been arrested for child molesting than teachers? The church…ALL CHURCHES are full of dirt…are evil..and use their power over people to get money (tax free i should add)…sex…and promise them a bill of false goods.

First we need to TAX ALL RELIGIONS…as they “sell” a service. One that sells a “make believe afterlife”…..

They are a BUSINESS…. they “sell” fiction…for a PROFIT!!!

Tax the churches and end our DEFICIT NOW!!!!

By Bruno

May 7, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

But as you see from Bruno’s quote, he’s worried that young girls will have sex “without facing any consequences”.

Again, Mara, if you could see past the us vs. them demonization, you would understand that our goals are the same. The reason for facing consequences isn’t in order to punish anyone. You’re confusing me with chuck. The reason for facing consequences is simple: it’s the only effective means of learning in this world. When you take away consequences, you take away the most effective vehicle for convincing people to change their behavior. Which, BTW, is the ultimate “solution” to teen sex, and not more available birth control.

Can you see that we are ultimately on the same side on this issue?

Never said that and moreover I qualified my statement: “I have to side with the currently matured human in that case since they have more to lose.” I do not come to this position without considering the unborn child as you state.

Sorry I didn’t read your statement more carefully, JokesOn. You are about the only one making any sense today.

Catch you tomorrow.

By Dave

May 7, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

GANDOLF,

Allow gays to get married…because it will truly make ALL of us straight people gay…and then….their would be no NEED for abortions!!! Makes sense huh? ;-)

YAY for voting for Dubya…TWICE….gays are STILL gay, and ABORTION is STILL legal!!!!

By Clever Conservative

May 7, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

If all you gals would keep you legs crossed, we wouldn’t have all these abortion issues.

Amen! It’s always the woman’s fault. If I cheat on you, it’s your fault. If you even look at another man, you are a filthy tramp. You will react to my infidelity the way I tell you to react. Start by apologizing to me, then go nurture my seed before I tell the neighbors what a filthy tramp you are for making me cheat.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

UsinUk, Mara, Bruno, JokesOn

First, I need to stop this. if I don’t stop spending this much time on here instead of getting these projects out the door, I am going to need to figure out how to power up this laptop from a cardboard box, under a bridge.

The problem that I have with abortions, (other than the obvious pain that one particular abortion caused myself and my family) is the apparent lack of regard for the sanctity of a human life. When I see a woman try to claim that it is simply a matter of her choice, that makes no more sense to me than the choices Jefferey Dahmer made toward that same sanctity.

It is ALWAYS more than that. There is always a human death that is to be considered. In many instances, there is a Father that would be charged with supporting that child that is involved that wants to be considered in that decision. It is never just an issue of removing a multi-cell parasite from a woman’s body.

I have a beautiful 18 year old daughter. If she came to me, telling me she was pregnant, it would be an issue that would destroy me. I could have a grandchild or my daughter could continue to follow her dreams, but having both would be almost impossible. I understand that.

But I don’t worry a lot about that because her mother and I have taught her well. We have taught her how absolutely important it is to use birth control. (no, not when she was 11, Bruno)

But more importantly, we have taught her about the sanctity of human life. We have taught her that it isn’t just a matter of choice for her, but a matter of life and death for a very real member of our family.

I may be wrong. She may be pregnant right now. She has a steady boyfriend. (I tried to kill him, but I just can’t catch him. Damn it!!) But I believe until when we start teaching children, not only about birth control, but how important it is that they are not required to have an abortion, we will never see RARE abortions.

Now I just got a commie booty call from my Ukrainian girlfriend so I will be leaving you guys. (Little bit of Eastern Block Passion) In the morning, I fly outta here until Saturday night, so everyone have a great weekend.

And Bruno, See? Mara isn’t mad at me …

Yet.

By Truth

May 7, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Dave

Calm down.

You sound like just another hysterical idiot.

By Mara

May 7, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Which, BTW, is the ultimate “solution” to teen sex, and not more available birth control.

I didn’t know we were looking for a “solution” to teen sex. I was under the impression that the subject was abortion and how to decrease the frequency of it. Teens, (even IF we were able to keep them from exploring and experimenting) grow up. What they learn in school certainly transfers into their adult life.

The idea is to teach them what they need to know before they need to know it. While it is possible that this information will allow teens to have “consequence-free sex”…if they know how to use contraceptives, know where to get them, know what kind are available etc. then they are less likely as adults to end up with an unwanted pregnancy.

Either way, I shudder at the idea of forcing a young girl, little more than a child herself, to carry a pregnancy to term in order to “teach her a lesson”. Especially when a little education could have prevented the pregnancy in the first place.

No, Bruno…I don’t think we’re on the same side here. I want reduce abortions through education and pregnancy prevention. I’m not sure what you are trying to do…

By Sniper

May 7, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

I am going to need to figure out how to power up this laptop from a cardboard box, under a bridge.

doesn’t really sound like a problem. pawn the laptop.

By AGFNPR

May 7, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Dave:

Either way…explain why it is…that LIBERALS (our BADGE of HONOR these days)…adopt twice as many kids Please tell me where you got this fact, let me research your source, and then I will try to answer this question. (Hint: if you got it from some left-wing propaganda rag, don’t bother posting the link).

Please explain why MORE pastors and priests have been arrested for child molesting than teachers? Even though you asked this question of Gandalf, I will jump in. But before we can discuss this, please cite your source.

First we need to TAX ALL RELIGIONS…as they “sell” a service. One that sells a “make believe afterlife”….. Hmmm. Churches should teach that heaven or hell is a CHOICE we all make. The bible teaches that your money cannot get you into heaven. So please tell me again what church folk are selling? And last time I checked, the church can’t force people to give. People freely give their money WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN TAXED. I want the money I give to go to the church, not to the bloated federal government which has proven time and time again (in both Republican and Democratic administrations) that it cannot manage the resources it currently has.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

It is ALWAYS more than that. There is always a human death that is to be considered. In many instances, there is a Father that would be charged with supporting that child that is involved that wants to be considered in that decision. It is never just an issue of removing a multi-cell parasite from a woman’s body.

Very few people here will say that it is an easy decision, which is why I think it HAS to be up to the people involved. Yes, there are people that compare to parasites, but few.

If you hammer out all the concerns you listed (which most everyone on here would have) and possible solutions; someone always ends up being shortchanged. I agree it is trick and there are no absolutes. But the absolute that a woman’s life (which she has put years of effort into) will be altered totally (currently) makes more sense to me than an unborn child’s rights.

Again, I do not come to this conclusion easily and it is always being tested - for if there is a replacement that is valid and 100% I would change my decision on the issue.

By AGFNPR

May 7, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

Mara:

The idea is to teach them what they need to know before they need to know it. While it is possible that this information will allow teens to have “consequence-free sex”…if they know how to use contraceptives, know where to get them, know what kind are available etc. then they are less likely as adults to end up with an unwanted pregnancy.

I agree and disagree with what you stated. However, let’s look at this problem from another angle. I am going to ask you three personal questions that I will also answer for myself.

My answers: 1. My parents sat me down and told me about sex when I was around nine years old. 2. Somewhere around the age of eleven to twelve. It started with questions like “hey Dad, what are those machines for in the bathroom at the gas station?”. 3. No. And I would like to think of myself as a fairly rational person. I was always the “smart kid” in high school. But my education and reason did not overcome my hormones. I was fortunate that I wasn’t a dad as a teenager. Even in college I took risks that I KNEW I shouldn’t have. I didn’t engage in risky behavior because I didn’t know about birth control, or because I didn’t have access to condoms, but because I was having sex before I was mentally and emotionally ready. And it sure would have been nice if someone besides my parents and pastor would have told me that it was OK to wait.

Now think about your friends in high school. Were they ignorant about sex and birth control? Did they too engage in risky behavior?

Sex education is important, but it is not the end-all that most left-leaner believe it to be.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

I didn’t engage in risky behavior because I didn’t know about birth control, or because I didn’t have access to condoms, but because I was having sex before I was mentally and emotionally ready. And it sure would have been nice if someone besides my parents and pastor would have told me that it was OK to wait.

It seems to me incomprehensible that you (or many other people) would have made a much different decision if people besides your parents and pastor would have told me that it was OK to wait.

Think about it. Armed with all that other info did not make a huge difference. Why would anyone besides your parents or pastor make THE difference? Especially when that is what they would be expected to say no matter what. Not that it shouldn’t be said, mind you

Not a personal attack, for I can attribute this same course to myself and many others at that age.

By USinUK

May 8, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this

Bruce -

But when an unwanted child is killed who is punished? Just the opposite, the woman is praised and glorified.

What ARE you talking about? praised and glorified by whom? in the media? in the movies? I don’t recall seeing any women walking out of clinics with tiaras and roses or seeing a whole “congratulations on your termination” section in the classifieds. get real.

If abortion is so traumatizing why are there so many preformed every year and that number continues to increase?

WRONG - the number of abortions has been on the decline since 1981: http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2008/01/17/index.html “The abortion rate is now at its lowest level since 1974. The number of abortions declined as well, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, 25% below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990.”

As for unwanted children, why are so many Americans going overseas to adopt children? Because the laws on adoption are so complicated here that by the time you get through all the paperwork the newborn you are trying to adopt has graduated from college.

It’s not the laws on adoption that are complicated here - its that the supply of perfect, lily-white babies is a lot lower because the stigma of single-motherhood is mostly gone (with the exception of the AJC’s W2W board). Also, the out-of-wedlock birth rate has dropped - until recently, that is. Demand is outweighing supply, so people go abroad. Talk to people who have adopted from other countries - they’ll tell you it wasn’t easy or cheap.

In fact, most states have been working to streamline the adoption of foster kids, but most adoptive parents aren’t interested in adopting a 7-year-old.

I am not saying women should be nothing more than baby machines but I do say they should be resposible for their actions. And no having an abortion is not the responsible thing.

Poverty is at the root of a number of unintended pregnancies - access to medical treatment (here we go again) being at the root of the problem. And, I’ll say it again - most women who have abortions have done so because their birth control method failed - they WERE being responsible.

Lastly, for those who think that restrictive abortion laws will reduce the numbers of abortions, check out the Guttmacher site mentioned above - they have a list of countries with very restrictive abortion laws - and all of them have a higher rate of abortions than the US. Then, compare that to Europe with the least restrictive abortion laws but has a lower rate of abortion than the US.

By Archie

May 8, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

USinUk,ladies,etc. How do you feel about Barbara Walters and Star Jones? Walters said they lied to cover for Star when it came to her weight issues and Star blasted Walters for Walters’ affair with Brooks. I personally have a problem with the way Walter’s discusses her affair but I am also not too fond of Star. I have been told that Star acts like a jerk according to some of sorority sisters. I know this absolutely nothing to do with the blog topic but hell, I can’t get up to discussing abortion for zillioneth time on this blog. The same people support choice and the same people don’t.

By USinUK

May 8, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Archie -

• I can’t get up to discussing abortion for zillioneth time on this blog. The same people support choice and the same people don’t*

ha. so true!

don’t really care about BabaWawa - we talked about the whole issue of the “party of the third part” apologizing for their role in an affair last week. Star Jones? moneygrubber, if her wedding is any indication (and, hey, she’s probably just glad for the free publicity from Baba’s book).

In economic news today, the Bank of England kept rates at 5% and the European Central Bank kept rates at 4%. In the US, initial jobless claims fell by 18,000 to 365,000 but still remain at a level indicating that companies are in trimming mode, and Wal-Mart and Costco are both reporting increases in sales as shoppers look for bargains.

Lastly, in entertainment news, Madonna announced her world tour will kick off in August. I hope everyone has had their shots. yuk.

By Archie

May 8, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

Lastly, in entertainment news, Madonna announced her world tour will kick off in August. I hope everyone has had their shots. yuk. Madonna admits she’s not a great singer but she has more #1 albums than any female except that famous democrat, Barbara Streisand.

Also the word on Walmart’s sales is caution “The economy continues to get tougher and the ‘paycheck cycle’ is more pronounced for customers than in past months,” said Eduardo Castro-Wright, CEO of Wal-Mart U.S.A. Also the price of tv’s will go up because China is charging more their parts and labor.

By Topic Suggestion for W2W

May 8, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Misogyny: Alive and well in America

A woman establishes and builds her own business in the entreprenureal spirit of America, providing a service for which American men pay: a service men have always sought and always will. Not just men of low-social caliber, but men of all backgrouds. She employs the willing and pays them well, not being one to resort to kidnapping, addiction and abuse. She tailors her business to the well-to-do, successful, high-powered men of Washington D.C. These men, many of whom receive respectable salaries of taxpayer money, patronize her business for years and enjoy the privacy and secrecy for which they pay handsomely.

Since this service is, for reasons unknown, illegal, the woman is arrested. She is charged with all manner of crimes, including racketeering. No one prosecutes the men, even though they are also technically breaking the law. Before the verdict is read in her trial, the judge seals “confidential” information about the men who patronized her business, the men who paid for what they wanted and received. Like so many businesswomen before her, she goes down big and loses everything. The men, on the otherhand, (with a couple of exceptions) go on with their lives without so much as a slap on the wrist or a mug shot in the paper. The secrecy of their transgressions is assured.

There is no honor among men here, nor in America’s “justice” system. The American people just accept this inequity as normalcy. They embrace it even, under the clause known as “It’s always the woman’s fault.” From the Supreme Court Justices to the janitor who mops the floor in the courthouse holding rooms, it’s all the same: It’s the woman’s fault.

The woman kills herself rather than rot in prison while the men she provided for remain free to earn a living, love whom they will, and go on unscathed. She realizes the American dream does not belong to her, misogyny is alive and well in America, and she has no life and no future. Not only do I not blame her, I am tempted to do the same. There is no decency among you, and in truth, the more you declare you possess it, the less you have.

Discuss.

By chuck

May 8, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Not only do I not blame her, I am tempted to do the same.

Are you talking about becoming a hooker or committing suicide?

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this

There is no decency among you, and in truth, the more you declare you possess it, the less you have.

Discuss.

I will bite, as usual.

Although I agree with the premise that the profession maybe should be legal (highly debatable) I will rebut the obvious mis-steps in your logic:

First, this is common with any racketeering. Look at past mob cases and the immunity the wives/other criminals/and dirty informants got or drug dealers being prosecuted but not the list of users that went to them. Not a gender thing here, sorry - happens across the board all the time.

Second, there are places in the US that it is legal and she did not have the sense to practice there. Tax evasion reasons maybe? Either way not smart.

Third, he letter read that she shamed her family and was sorry as well as did not want to emerge from prison old and single; both were known to her in the beginning but ignored.

By Archie

May 8, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

There is no honor among men here, nor in America’s “justice” system. The American people just accept this inequity as normalcy. They embrace it even, under the clause known as “It’s always the woman’s fault.” From the Supreme Court Justices to the janitor who mops the floor in the courthouse holding rooms, it’s all the same: It’s the woman’s fault. I disagree with this entire paragraph because if you do the crime then you have to do the time. Men go to jail all the time for things that baffle me so you can miss me with woe-is-me card. When that DC madam went into that business she knew it was illegal so when the punishment came she needed to “woman up ” and take it.

Since this service is, for reasons unknown, illegal, the woman is arrested. I agree with this statement. The service you refer to is legal in a county in Vegas and perhaps that’s where this business lady should have set up shop. I say to my male friend that smokes reefer, it’s illegal and if you get caught you have to deal with the consequences. As for guys that were customers of the DC madam we don’t know what the punishment was but let’s remember they were customers and customers of illegal businesses rarely get the same punishment as the creator of the illegal business. For example, man/woman buys drugs for personal use gets fined or minimal jail time but the person charged with distribution gets longer jail time and a larger fine, just ask Mr. Ravenel,ex-secretary of state for the State of SC.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

No, Bruno…I don’t think we’re on the same side here. I want reduce abortions through education and pregnancy prevention. I’m not sure what you are trying to do…

As I said, we have the same goal, Mara: reducing unwanted pregnancies and the resulting abortions. Our only real difference is how to go about it. You somehow believe that “teaching the facts” about birth control is all we need to do. However, as AGFNPR pointed out yesterday, almost ALL kids know the “facts of life” by age 9 or 10. In his words “I didn’t engage in risky behavior because I didn’t know about birth control, or because I didn’t have access to condoms, but because I was having sex before I was mentally and emotionally ready”.

My idea is to promote abstinence by making it the cultural norm in our country—and NOT through withholding factual information. You seem to think it’s an either/or situation. From the girls’ perspective, I’ve seen numerous studies which correlate self-esteem with delaying having sex for the first time. Specifically, involvement in sports appears to be a key factor. From the boys’ perspective, it is a matter of teaching respect for their partners. None of this will be easy, and will certainly require the cooperation of parents, but IMO it is the best solution.

So, demonize me all you want, our goals are the same.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

Amen! It’s always the woman’s fault. If I cheat on you, it’s your fault. If you even look at another man, you are a filthy tramp. You will react to my infidelity the way I tell you to react. Start by apologizing to me, then go nurture my seed before I tell the neighbors what a filthy tramp you are for making me cheat.

Just what do you get out of this “Blame Game” anyway, Clever Conservative/Topic Suggestion? Is it just a bid for attention, or what? I’m sorry if you married a loser for a husband, but at some point you need to look at your own responsibility for being attracted to “misogynists” in the first place.

Frankly, the more you rant about “misogynists”, the more I believe that you are a “misandronist”, i.e. one who believes that men are the root of all problems.

As a fellow traveler on this planet with you, I am concerned that you appear to be very depressed and on the verge of losing hope for a better tomorrow. However, your constant finger-pointing isn’t helping you or anyone who is concerned about you.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

Either way, I shudder at the idea of forcing a young girl, little more than a child herself, to carry a pregnancy to term in order to “teach her a lesson”. Especially when a little education could have prevented the pregnancy in the first place.

Also, Mara, please show me where I have even ONCE proposed making abortion illegal, thereby “forcing a young girl to carry a pregnancy to term in order to teach her a lesson”. It’s kind of tough having an intelligent discussion with you if you are going to insist upon putting words in my mouth. My observation is simply the same as Truth’s: Whatever ere doing, it’s not working in light of the horrific number of abortions. We need better solutions, solutions based upon a knowledge of human nature. Once again, all of YOUR solutions amount to little more than removing all consequences from unhealthy behavior. MY solution is to reduce the unhealthy behavior in the first place. And yes, part of accomplishing that is to establish cultural norms by which underage sex is frowned upon. Shame may not be a pretty thing at times, but IMO it is an effective tool that has a legitimate place in this world. Just my opinion, of course.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Archie and JokesOn—Excellent responses to “Topic Suggestion” today. In other comparable “vice” industries, like drug sales, the “pusher”, the one who is profiting monetarily from the transaction, ALWAYS faces stiffer penalties than the “customers”. Which makes sense, if you think about it.

Of course, a good argument can be constructed that “vice crimes” shouldn’t be crimes in the first place, but that’s a different argument for a different day.

By Archie

May 8, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

Frankly, the more you rant about “misogynists”, the more I believe that you are a “misandronist”, i.e. one who believes that men are the root of all problems. Hello, Bruno, I think she needs to kill herself and before you or Chuck get on me for saying un-christian like thing, please keep in mind this person has no intention of committing suicide because it requires WORK. There is so much work to be done for justice and this heffer moans and groans about a woman who ran a w*******. Police have always killed minority men for just any old reason but now they’re starting to shoot white men… to death. Bruno since you’re a conservative check out a guy named Gregory Kane who wrote a story about a man trying to break up a fight yet ended up being killed by a cop and this man named Stamp was himself in fact a cop and a white guy.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Good news for the W2W Libs: I’ve decided to return to work on June 1. Now y’all can go back to beating up on chuck and think that somehow you have accomplished something.

By USinUK

May 8, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

Now y’all can go back to beating up on chuck and think that somehow you have accomplished something.

nah … that’s kind of like kicking a hamster and thinking you’re Hercules.

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Hello, Bruno, I think she needs to kill herself and before you or Chuck get on me for saying un-christian like thing, please keep in mind this person has no intention of committing suicide because it requires WORK. There is so much work to be done for justice and this heffer moans and groans about a woman who ran a w**.

Archie, while I agree with your sentiment, please don’t ever suggest that someone take their own life, even in jest. I don’t know if you have ever entertained serious thoughts of suicide at some point in your life, but I have. Do your best to be compassionate to “Topic Suggestion”. She needs all the love we can give her.

Excellent posts today, Archie. You’ll be one of the bloggers I miss when I return to work in a few weeks.

By USinUK

May 8, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

I’ve decided to return to work on June 1

oh, and congrats on the new gig!

By Mara

May 8, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

You somehow believe that “teaching the facts” about birth control is all we need to do

I’ve never said that it’s “all we need to do” but education on, and the availability of, birth control seems to be what gets most conservatives all hot and bothered.

The funny thing is, in spite of all the “little girls having sex” hysteria, the majority of abortions are performed on adult women between 20-29 years old. Only about 17 percent are teens. Either than means teens are more careful than adult women or that most women ARE waiting to have sex…which according to the CDC is exactly what’s happening.

“Adolescents who have received sexual education in school or church settings are less likely to be sexually active. For girls, they were 59% less likely and boys were 71% less likely. Epidemiologists at the Center for Disease Control emphasize that for sex education to be effective it should take place before teens become sexually active.”

Comprehensive sex ed INCLUDES abstinence and techniques one can use to resist peer pressure without being labled “un-cool”, as well as teaching girls (and boys) how to say “no”…which isn’t necessarily an easy thing to do when you are absolutely positive that the person you’re with really, really does love you. I certainly agree that teaching abstinence is fine, but it shouldn’t be the ONLY thing we teach.

well, got three meetings this afternoon so I’ll catch y’all L8R :^)

By Bruno

May 8, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

nah … that’s kind of like kicking a hamster and thinking you’re Hercules.

Hey, USinUK—I’m definitely going to miss knocking heads with you. You’re a jewel.

BTW, my friend suggested that I should go to Amsterdam for one last blow-out before returning to work. Any thoughts? I heard that there is an island off the coast of Spain which is wickedly fun as well. Ever been there?

In case you didn’t know, some hard-core conservatives like me ALSO like to “party” a little.

By USinUK

May 8, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Bruno -

aww! you’ll be missed, my friend - you’re a good debater without resorting to being insulting!! I may not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it, yeah?? :-)

Ibiza (pronounced Ee-bee-tha) - THE party place - clubs never close - major clubbing scene - contact high from all the X (from what I’ve heard)

Amsterdam - never been but have heard nothing but rave reviews (had one of the most straight-laced friends of mine tell me about the “coffee shops” there - she tried the pot, but was afraid of the brownies as they’re nearly hallucinagens)

okay … that’s it for me today - heading home - have a good evening!!!

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

You somehow believe that “teaching the facts” about birth control is all we need to do

That aspect gets stressed because it is ONE obvious and easy thing that conservative refuse to apply. That is why we yell it out loud.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Shame may not be a pretty thing at times, but IMO it is an effective tool that has a legitimate place in this world. Just my opinion, of course.

I used to think that too, but have found that the “healthy’ shame comes from within and exists because the shamed person does not want to lose respect from people close. Shaming a person will shut down and then all hope is lost.

The tool to use is what jesus (and therapist/the beatles/et al.) advocated: Have a real and deep relationship with the person. the avoidance of shameful behavior will come from within them.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

(missed a word)

will shut them down and then all hope is lost.

By AGFNPR

May 8, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

JokesOn:

Think about it. Armed with all that other info did not make a huge difference. Why would anyone besides your parents or pastor make THE difference? Especially when that is what they would be expected to say no matter what. Not that it shouldn’t be said, mind you

I probably should have taken more time to explain my point. I am not saying abstinence education would have made a difference in the risks I took. I was simply making the point that almost all of my friends KNEW about sex and birth control before we had sex, yet we still didn’t practice safe sex.

Part of the problem was the pop culture of the mid-80’s that sent out the message that “sex is fun”, “sex has no consequences”, and “everybody’s doing it”. Without too much thought, I could probably name at least 10 teen flicks made in the 80’s that propagated the statements I made above. In all of these movies you had 25 yr. old actors portraying 16 yr. old kids. This of course sent the message that all of the cool, good looking kids are having sex – if you aren’t having sex then you aren’t in the “in crowd”.

Please don’t get me wrong – I am not blaming my bad decisions on anyone else. Despite these influences, I still knew right from wrong, and I chose to do the wrong thing. But I do agree with Bruno when he said we should “establish cultural norms by which underage sex is frowned upon”.

By Archie

May 8, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

please don’t ever suggest that someone take their own life, even in jest. I don’t know if you have ever entertained serious thoughts of suicide at some point in your life, but I have. Do your best to be compassionate to “Topic Suggestion”. She needs all the love we can give her. I know you’re right Bruno but gosh I think this is the same person that just complains but does nothing, nothing. I will adhere to your warning and I will apologize for my previous suggestion. Anyway some folk could use a little more shame….

By Letthem

May 8, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

People who are always whining about how they are “going to kill themselves” are usually grossly selfish and inconsiderate people who probably should do exactly that.

Suicide is the ultimate in self-centered selfishness.

ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

By Lyrazel

May 8, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

we should “establish cultural norms by which underage sex is frowned upon. Maybe we should start with getting rid of Disney pre-teen programming.

Isn’t the American creed about embracing freedoms rather than responsibility—living the all about me life? Growing up with such a self-involved country do children even listen to people talking about safe sex or abstinence? Their parents don’t.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Part of the problem was the pop culture of the mid-80’s that sent out the message that “sex is fun”, “sex has no consequences”, and “everybody’s doing it”.

I agree. I have to add to it though: I did the same “not thinking about it” but when my brother gave me a box of condoms for my 17th birthday (he used my birthday as a time to give them although the reason was he knew I was having sex) I did use them.

I remember at 15yo doing the old trick of putting mayo in condoms and then putting the condom over door handles of strangers or people we did not like. Even though the reason for needing condoms was for an immature joke, we stole them out of embarrassment.

If we were afraid to buy them even for a practical joke, how would a person expect someone to buy them for actual use??

Once again, only part of the equation, but I feel a necessary one. The tools must be available in a non-threatening environment.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

People who are always whining about how they are “going to kill themselves” are usually grossly selfish and inconsiderate people who probably should do exactly that.

Suicide is the ultimate in self-centered selfishness.

I disagree. People are selfish in wanting someone who sees no way out to stick around so THEY THEMSELVES do not have to grieve. Never mind the person in grave pain, mental or physical; just do not make ME have to miss you is the reality.

By Just Yankin' Yer Chain

May 8, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

Good afternoon, Gentlemen. Just kidding with the “Topic Suggestion” post!!! I don’t really think that none of you have any decency, in fact, I know many good, decent men. To the decent among you, I apologize.

The 10:59 post was merely an attempt to change the subject from abortion and liven things up. I got the idea from watching NANCY GRACE the other night. No original ideas here… but was interested to see how folks would respond to the story. Shall we break it down then?

—Chuck popped his head up immediately at the notion of me becoming a hooker. “REALLY?” —JokesOn used legal precedent to shoot holes in it, and although his tone was thoroughly condescending, he was completely correct: Other men also take the fall to protect the privileged and powerful. —Bruno went immediately into the deepest personal insult he could find by bringing up the poster’s presumed “loser husband,” a traditionally chuckish tactic. The kick’em-when-they’re-down move is primitive and spiteful, but not original. —The only woman to post in several hours was USinUK, who avoided the topic entirely, but did take time to praise Bruno for not being insulting, even though he insults someone each and every day.

The winner today, though: Archie, who promptly encouraged the poster to go kill herself, and only later half-heartedly apologized and in the same breath presumed the poster “only complains” and “never does anything,” even though the poster engages in a number of “save the world” organized activities, but does not identify them here, as this would leave the poster open to being located by sick pycho stalker types who can’t let it go.

Did I have a point here? Yes: This is NOT a “woman to woman” forum, but a “men who love to b-tch forum,” and my real suggestion is that it be renamed appropriately. Thanks for participating in this little exercise and showing your true colors. Next time someone in your church kills himself Archie, sleep well knowing you’ll never have to listen to him or her again.

Y’all have a nice day, now.

By NetBanker

May 8, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Blah, blah, blah…same arguments, different day and discussion. The conservatives on here are a darn riot with their liberal bashing and making logic leaps such as Truth with Copyleft. Suddenly not having RESPECT for a group equates to only tolerating those who agree with Copyleft. Respect and tolerance are mutually exclusive concepts there Truth.

On the more recent vear off into the sex discussion, I think one of the biggest things we could do in this country would be to stop the culture of shame surrounding our bodies and sex. Other cultures that are much more comfortable with these topics don’t seem to have the corresponding teen pregnancy and abortion problems we have here. and let’s not go the route of not being ashamed of one’s phsical appearance suddenly being translated into some “Net’s for teen nudist orgies” position.

By NetBanker

May 8, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

One more thing on the underage sex topic…I don’t know that the issue is really solved by providing the facts. I think the biggest barrier is that, as we’ve recently discovered, the human brain doesn’t fully comprehend risk until the early 20’s. For the most part, teen’s brains just don’t compute the risks of unsafe sex no matter how much you tell them. They need something more concrete…like part of sex ed should be having to spend the day at a day care center changing infant diapers and calming down screaming kids. THAT would probably be more effective at driving home the consequences than a mere lecture.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

thoroughly condescending,

Hmmm. Doubt that much. Closest comment was Although I agree with the premise that the profession maybe should be legal (highly debatable) (agreeing that you may have a point here)

and

I will rebut the obvious mis-steps in your logic If you find that condescending, sorry, but as you agreed yourself my point was right on and obvious.

If you were trying to test, your test was loaded. If you want to find condescending and outright crude; look to that fist post.

As for a place for guys to b!tch…you posted as a angry sexist female b*** about the cruelty that all guys conspired to punish an innocent meek woman, as if.

All your test showed is you approach someone with hostility you will, more often than not, receive it back. In light of that, I think your test in that purpose shows we acted quite good seeing as no one was as scathing as you.

BUT…in reality, I believe you wanted to argue that inane point but found yourself without a point very fast and ran away, then came back to apply whatever insults you could muster before running again.

Thank you for potentially recharging the hostility on the blog that was tamped down at last. Your (whatever it was, lost-point or bad test) exhibited bad judgment and reckless behavoir.

Yes, this is condescending because you lost more respect than if you tried to make your original point. Blogging from never-never land insults and disrespects all those who like to learn from others hear and undermines that effort.

By NetBanker

May 8, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Bruno…USinUK has both places nailed with descriptions. I’d be more inclined to return to Amsterdam before Ibiza if you plan to do anything other than party because that’s about all there is to do on Ibiza. Berlin is also a great place for a kickin’ party (plenty of experience there) and I’ve heard very good things about Prague.

On another topic…why are they called Abortion Clinics? If that was the ONLY procedure done at said clinic then it’s a good descriptor, but in most cases they are Health Clinics that perform abortions along with many other procedures. So why the focus solely on the abortion aspect of the clinic?

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

learn and hear

By Just Yankin' Yer Chain

May 8, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

That’s what I like about you, JokesOn. You don’t temper your rational logic with the pretense of compassion for others. Honesty rocks! The pretense some use here is insulting, manipulative, and grossly hypocritical. I push back against that.. sorry. It’s my weakness.

Personal hostilities aside, you’re totally correct on most points, except that no one said ” all guys conspired to punish an innocent meek woman.” The fact is that johns are punished in some places, (like NYC “john school”), but the rich and powerful in D.C. were protected while the woman who knew their nasty little secrets was pursued to the fullest extent of the law and is now dead. She’s not the only one, either. I was writing from the perspective of women in her position (as a writer, I sometimes take license), and wondered if anyone else would note the inequity. (But hey, like Archie said, she’s just a wh-re, so who cares, right?) Calling my behavior “reckless” is going a bit far, though. It’s just a discussion forum, and unless you can show that even one customer of the DC Madam, or anyone else reading this was bothered by what happened, my observations were valid. You’re entitled to your own of course.

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 8, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

Lfehiem said: Suicide is the ultimate in self-centered selfishness. WRONG, that would be abortion!

By NetBanker

May 8, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

So do all of you believe that the D.C. Madame committed suicide? I’ve been reading reports that indicate she specifically stated to family members, her landlord (or maybe it was doorman), and others that she was NOT contemplating suicide and was concerned that she was being followed and in danger. The other thing pointed out is that the suicide was by hanging. As I recall, the prostitute involved in the case also hanged herself despite also saying she wasn’t suicidal. Statistically men hang themselves while women take pills.

Something isn’t right with this case and it certainly wouldn’t surprise me to find that she was “taken out” to protect the powerful in D.C.

By NetBanker

May 8, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Suicide is the ultimate in self-centered selfishness. WRONG, that would be abortion! Gandalf…in ALL cases, most cases, or some cases? Is it selfish to abort a fetus when the baby (if carried to term) will be born with severe deformities and never have a chance at anything resembling what is generally considered a ‘normal’ life or will likely die within a matter of weeks?

By kimberly

May 8, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Hey, NetB! I’m not a big fan of Nancy Grace, but she was asking the same questions. Apparently it is common before sentencing in a case like this for the convicted to start turning over names and evidence implicating others, in order to secure a lesser sentence. Surely DC Madam’s lawyers would have been pursuing this goal, and therefore clients would have a reason to want her silenced. She could have been coerced into writing the suicide notes to protect her mother. “Hey, you’re gonna be dead anyway. Cooperate or we’ll kill your mom…” Like you, I think the circumstnaces of both deaths are very suspicious.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

I was referring to (and believe my point was valid) the statements: There is no honor among men here, nor in America’s “justice” system.

There is no decency among you, and in truth, the more you declare you possess it, the less you have.

As for Calling my behavior “reckless” is going a bit far, though. It’s just a discussion forum,

You know as well as I that all it takes is one person to get the ball rolling around here. I can take it for what it was, and laugh even, but many cannot and one person getting set off in this bunch can kill the blog for weeks. That is what I was referring to.

but the rich and powerful in D.C. were protected

That is my point. The rich and privileged are the ones running the show. As we see more women in those positions we also see the act in the same manner.

and unless you can show that even one customer of the DC Madam, or anyone else reading this was bothered by what happened, my observations were valid.

If you mean bothered by how she was gone after while the rich and privileged were protected, look no further. I wish they posted the list for all to see on the front page including what they liked to do most. I am picturing pacifiers in mouths, diapers, and being put in time out as their “thing.”

Ever hear about the rich and privileged guy that paid to be whipped in the dungeon at cheetah 3 (i think it was that club)? He sued her because she whipped him too hard! I would have too if I was her, plus some…

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this

Did I have a point here?

The only “point” of your diatribe was to draw attention to yourself. So, congratulations, you got what you wanted.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

I’d be more inclined to return to Amsterdam before Ibiza if you plan to do anything other than party because that’s about all there is to do on Ibiza. Berlin is also a great place for a kickin’ party (plenty of experience there) and I’ve heard very good things about Prague.

Thanks for the partying advice, NetB. I did a little research into visiting Ibiza, and found out that things don’t really heat up until June. As much as I would like to visit Europe, I dread the 9+ hour flight, though. I’m contemplating either returning to Las Vegas, or just spending another week in Miami. After my Dominican friend caught wind that I was seeing my old GF again, her whole attitude seemed to change 180 degrees for the better. Nothing like a little competition to bring out the best in a girl…. ; > }

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Lfehiem said: Suicide is the ultimate in self-centered selfishness. WRONG, that would be abortion!

for those keeping score at home:

• you’re self-centered if you get an abortion

• you’re self-centered if you are unmarried but decide to have and keep the child anyway (how DARE you deprive a child of a father!)

• and, of course, you’re self-centered if you’re married but decide you don’t want children at all.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am so glad that here in the AJC’s W2W forum, we have arbitors of how we should all live. Without these folks, I just don’t know how I would deal, day-to-day.

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Bruno -

just spending another week in Miami

ahhhhhhhhhhhh … Miami … you can’t go wrong there … SoBe, baby!!!

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

The conservatives on here are a darn riot with their liberal bashing and making logic leaps such as Truth with Copyleft. Suddenly not having RESPECT for a group equates to only tolerating those who agree with Copyleft. Respect and tolerance are mutually exclusive concepts there Truth.

Out of curiosity, NetB, what is your opinion of the constant “conservative bashing” that seems to be a staple of W2W?? Also, although I’ve grown to like Truth as a person, I don’t consider him to be an effective spokesperson for the conservative cause. In return, do you consider 72Copyleft to be an effective spokesperson for the liberal cause?? I don’t, nor do I consider lozen or kimberly to be effective spokespersons. When I’m looking for good liberal “food for thought”, I look to you, USinUk, JokesOn, and Lyrazel.

I hope that I’ve given you some reasonable debate during my tenure here.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am so glad that here in the AJC’s W2W forum, we have arbitors of how we should all live. Without these folks, I just don’t know how I would deal, day-to-day.

Stick with me, gorgeous, and I’ll straighten it all out for you! ; > }

By mae

May 9, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

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By Bruno

May 9, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this

ahhhhhhhhhhhh … Miami … you can’t go wrong there … SoBe, baby!!!

Man, it’s too bad you’re taken, USinUK. Your hubby is one lucky SOB!

BTW, I thought of you yesterday while driving back from another job interview. On the radio, I heard that little acoustic guitar riff, followed by “Chewin’ on a piece of grass, walkin’ down the ro-o-oad” and a big smile came to my face. What a great song.

Thanks for all of your positivity. You truly are a special person.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Although I’m not much of a musician, I did learn how to play “Long Distance Run Around” on the keyboard. YES is such an awesome group. I can’t tell you how many times I took a little “trip” with them….

Other great bands to “travel” with: The Beatles, John Lennon, the Allman Bros, Cream, Genesis, Jimi Hendrix, Jethro Tull, King Crimson, the Moody Blues, Santana, Steely Dan, and Traffic.

Ahhh, the good old days.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

I think my rabbit is a little bit confused regarding her place in the animal kingdom. Just a minute ago, she chased a couple of squirrels around causing them to climb the nearest tree. Her favorite outdoor activity is to go up to the fence and antagonize the chihuahuas next door. Whenever guests come over to the house, she immediately marches up to them, sniffs them out, and then either demands to be petted if she likes them, or tries to bite their ankles is she doesn’t. She must have been a mastiff in her previous life.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

BTW, Mara, I read the link you provided regarding showering together in the military. Quite a nice article from the “Gay Military Times”. No bias there at all. From the article:

So if a heterosexual service member is concerned about taking a shower with a gay guy, he/she can take the shower when the known or suspected gay member is not there.

Great solution. You’ve never shared your opinion about men showering with women. Since you don’t think male ogling is any kind of a distraction, don’t you think the military should save some money and just let everyone shower together, regardless of sex or sexual orientation?? And what is your opinion of male guards watching over female prisoners?? Any particular reason you won’t address these questions?? After all, in you mind, any male who feels awkward being ogled by a gay male is simply being homophobic. As such, what is good for the gander should be good for the goose, right? Don’t tell me you have a double standard working here….

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

Bruno -

Although I’m not much of a musician, I did learn how to play “Long Distance Run Around” on the keyboard. YES is such an awesome group. I can’t tell you how many times I took a little “trip” with them

a short anecdote for your Friday … has nothing to do with nothing …

I grew up listening to Yes, “Fragile” (my big brother was a HUGE fan) - so much so that we pretty much wore the record out - I knew every pop and hiss … so, fast forward to the 80s when I bought my first CD player - one of the first CDs I bought was Fragile and was A-MAZ-ED at how Long Distance Runaround sounded “clean” of pops and hisses … it was almost a different album!

no tripping, though … the music was (and is) enough … never really understood the kids who paid “good money” (waaayyyy back when $12.50 could buy you decent seats) to see a group at the Omni, then they’d be so drunk or wasted, they wouldn’t remember the concert.

yep - I’m a square. whatayagonnado.

By kimberly

May 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

Wow, your personal dating strategy is so interesting. Please draw more attention to it.

On a woman-related topic, I saw a good movie the other night about Alice Paul, the suffragist who continued where Susan B. Anthony left off and worked tirelessly and endured prison to bring about the ratification of the 19th Amendment in 1920. (HBO’s “Iron Jawed Angels”) Not only was I struck by the courage these women displayed — more than two hundred of them jailed for exercising their right to peaceful assembly and freedom of speech — but by the fact that it was NECESSARY in the first place!! After enjoying the John Adams mini-series recently, and learning more about the ideological premises and literal sacrifices of our founding fathers, and knowing the extent of the US government’s effort and determination to preserve the union and end slavery, it was just hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that in the 20th Century, American women (mothers, daughters, sisters, and wives of free American men) had NO rights at all! Even now, if we bring up the subject of equal rights, some man (not all, but a remnant of the neolithic era), pops up to offer a pejorative nickname. (Adding to my heightened perception of misogyny of late.)

Of course the “news” we get these days is rarely comprehensive and subjective, with each medium zooming in on one facet of the story to sensationalize it for ratings, but it seems like there are still inequities with regard to how the law of the land applies to, and is enforced with regard to gender. In some types of cases, perhaps, women get off eaiser than men too, because they are women. The DC Madam case disturbed me, not only because of the dubious facts of the case, but because so many people seem to think the lives of certain kinds of women are beneath everyone else’s. It’s my perception that we are still judged by a different set of standards than men. Is misogyny really gone? Or will it be with us forever? Thoughts?

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Kimberly -

Iron-Jawed Angels rocked the house! I saw it about a half-dozen times when it was on HBO - it should be mandatory viewing for EVERY woman who takes their vote for granted.

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By kimberly

May 9, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

USinUK, I agree! Daughters need to be dragged in and made to sit and watch. BTW, I was likely at the same YES concerts as you were… Saw them once in Europe too! Stood right in front of Chris Squire the whole time — no pushing or shoving like here. I love him!

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

kimberly

Daughters need to be dragged in and made to sit and watch

that’s why it really steams my clams when the GOP claimed “We gave women the right to vote”. ah. no. we wimmen folk fought tooth and nail for that right - no one GAVE it to us.

(and before anyone objects, the RNC in Washington had a HUGE banner that stated just that back on the 80th anniversary in 2000)

kimberly and bruno …

see??? that’s what I love about music - it soooooo brings people together …

all together now “I’d like to teach the world to sing … in perfect harmony (perfect harmony) … I’d like to buy the world a Coke … and keep it company … “

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 9, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

EX PAT: I made the selfish comment, and I am not telling people how to live, just observing. Lot of people are self centered, doesn’t make the evil.

Tales from Topographic Oceans is my favorite YES album and CD’s sound a lot better than vinyl. I miss the album cover! Roger Dean made the coolest (Yes and Uriah Heap to name 2 bands). Anyone else miss Album Covers?

By Gandalf, the Grey

May 9, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

EXPAT SAID: “that’s why it really steams my clams when the GOP claimed “We gave women the right to vote”. ah. no. we wimmen folk fought tooth and nail for that right - no one GAVE it to us.”

One of our biggest mistake ever! Franchise should be base on national service, not citizenship!

By chuck

May 9, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Kimberly, I’ve seen the first 2 episodes on Adams. I think they did a great job so far of showing the importance of Abigail Adams as his advisor and confidante. Most people don’t know this, but while Jefferson and Adams were working on the Declaration of Independence, Abigail was righting Adams to remind him to “not forget the ladies” as they declared freedom. She went so far as to tell him that women would “foment a rebellion” if they were excluded. She was an amazing woman.

Another interesting tidbit, in their later years, Jefferson and Adams hated each other’s guts. Abigail wrote a series of letters to Jefferson to help smooth things over between the 2. While they didn’t become close, they did bury the hatchet, ending the animosity between them. One more interesting fact. They both died on the exact same day within a short time of each other. That day? July 4th, 1825.

By chuck

May 9, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

This site is one I use with my students. It is a timeline of the events leading to women’s suffrage:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html

By chuck

May 9, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

This site is one I use with my students. It is a timeline of the events leading to women’s suffrage:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/naw/nawstime.html

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

Wow, your personal dating strategy is so interesting. Please draw more attention to it.

I’ll tell you what—I’ll be a nice guy today and NOT cut-n-paste any of the blogs YOU made on W2W regarding your dating experiences. Frankly, your references to picking up strangers from bars, enjoying being tied up and spanked, along with your disdain at being choked by your last BF still make the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Ok?

Adding to my heightened perception of misogyny of late.

One day, if you ever choose to take responsibility for the fact that you seek out misogynists to date, I’ll have more sympathy for your feelings.

By USinUK

May 9, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

Gandalf -

Lot of people are self centered, doesn’t make the evil.

I just don’t agree with you on the “self-centered” part. If people choose to not have kids (or don’t want to have them at a particular time) because they aren’t in a good financial situation or because they don’t think they’d be good parents, then I think the LAST thing they are is self-centered. If someone decides to have a kid - whether they are on their own or with a partner - the amount of love, time, money and effort it takes to raise that child pretty much shows that that person isn’t self-centered.

and YES-YES-YES, I’m so with you on missing good album art! I also miss the ceremony of choosing an album, pulling it out of the sleeve, then out of the inner sleeve, putting it on the turntable and engaging the needle (then sitting, looking at the artwork, reading the liner notes, etc). Now, everything is loaded on the computer, so I just hit “play” and that’s that. The quality of the music is better, but the act of playing albums isn’t as engaging.

By chuck

May 9, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

I went to a great concert last week at Masquerade. Symphony X was the headliner. They were GREAT. Michael Romeo is a world class guitarist. The first group sucked. They wer called “Into Eternity” I think. They were from Canada. Maybe that explains it. Epica was pretty good also.

If you really want some great travelling music, go with “Super Cool” by Joe Satriani. Fantastic guitar music, most of which he wrote himself. Saw him in concert a couple of years ago at the Variety Playhouse (Eric Johnson opened and he was great too) and then again with Big Daddy Paul Gilbert and John Petrucci in the G3 Concert at the Tabernacle. All of them were super.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

Tales from Topographic Oceans is my favorite YES album and CD’s sound a lot better than vinyl. I miss the album cover! Roger Dean made the coolest (Yes and Uriah Heap to name 2 bands). Anyone else miss Album Covers?

I’d have to go with “Close To The Edge” as my single favorite YES album, Gandalf, although I do like “Nous Sommes Du Soliel” from TFTO. Another overlooked classic album from YES is “Drama”: although Jon Anderson didn’t appear on it, it is still pure YES.

In undergrad college, one of my friends had the cover of TFTO painted as a mural on his dorm room walls. I still own about 500 vinyl albums, which I keep primarily to look at the covers on occasion. Elton John probably gave you the most for your money back in the 70s by including full booklets inside his albums containing the lyrics and photos. I still have the original “Yellow Brick Road” and “Tumbleweed Connection” albums with the original booklets.

By Lyrazel

May 9, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Since it is Friday and mom’s day is on Sunday I thought to post:

Mother’s Day Thoughts

The advice your son rejected is now being given by him to your grandchild.

Working mothers are guinea pigs in a scientific experiment to show that sleep is not necessary to human life.

Parents often talk about the younger generations as if they didn’t have anything to do with it.

Bottle-feeding: An opportunity for Daddy to get up at 2 am.

Family planning: The art of spacing your children the proper distance apart to keep you on the edge of financial disaster

Full name: What you call your child when you’re mad at him.

Grandparents: The people who think your children are wonderful even though they’re sure you’re not raising them right.

Independent: How we want our children to be as long as they do everything we say.

Show off: A child who is more talented than yours.

Puddle: A small body of water that draws other small bodies wearing dry shoes into it.

Anyway, every mother’s day I reflect with great joy that I never became one.

By kimberly

May 9, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Wow… you really ARE a nice guy, aren’t you Bruno? Thanks for proving it every day. Your multiple competing girlfriends sure are lucky! I can just imagine the sweet things you’d MAKE UP about me if I had been so lucky as to be one of them. swoooon! No misogyny, only love from the Bru-meister, right?

Seriously, get help Dude. You just put a whole ‘nother notch on the bitterness rejection scale. People might start to think you really ARE a deranged stalker and a danger to others when you talk like that.

TO THE OTHER DYSFUNCTIONAL BUT NOT COMPLETELY OVER THE EDGE FOLKS HERE: Please accept my apology for whatever I did to encourage this kind of nastiness. Since I can’t control the psychosis of others, I can only remove myself as a contributing irritant. Once again, my apologies for summoning the creep show. I have to see a man about a gun now. Have a nice weekend!

By Monica

May 9, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

My name is Monica, and I’m self-centered. We waited four years into our marriage to have children, not for financial reasons but for freedom reasons. I love my children with every fiber of my being, but I wouldn’t trade that time that my husband and I had before they were born. We took a trip to Disney before the boys came into the picture - it was one of our best vacations!

As for vinyl - my first record player was a Shaun Cassidy player with a microphone, which allowed me to sing along to the music. I loved 45’s because you could afford to buy the songs that you really liked without having to purchase the album entire. Does anyone else besides me have Toni Basil’s “Mickey” on 45? Another memory blast for me: I remember getting the Turtle’s $5 gift token for birthdays; that was the coolest gift!

By LaughOfTheWeek

May 9, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

I have to see a man about a gun now

By chuck

May 9, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

And I thought 72john was the drama queen on this board.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

The things we say when we are bored. Meh.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Please accept my apology for whatever I did to encourage this kind of nastiness. Since I can’t control the psychosis of others, I can only remove myself as a contributing irritant. Once again, my apologies for summoning the creep show. I have to see a man about a gun now. Have a nice weekend!

Really, kimberly, don’t you think you’re being a little over-dramatic? AND a tad hypocritical?? For some reason you feel justified in saying the nastiest, most personal things to and about me, but continually cry foul when I return fire. Just a few weeks ago you told me to “suck dick” in German. Maybe if I were a better person, like JokesOn, I would just laugh it off and chalk it up to mental insanity.

As for your “stalking” charges, give me a break, will you? I’ve never said anything to you on the blog or elsewhere that was threatening to you in any way, form, or fashion. If you think about it, all I know about you is your blog name and whatever personal tidbits you have chosen to reveal to me and the world here on W2W.

My time on the blog is about over, as I am returning to work soon. If you want to get along with me (and maybe some others here), you might consider dropping all the game-playing you’ve become accustomed to in which the end result is you demonizing men in general and me in particular. In case you didn’t know, Mongrels have feelings to.

The bottom line is that this is a blog—fantasy—and not real life. you can believe what you want, but I have been nothing but kind to the women in my life. Even the one who dumped me a few years ago.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

And I thought 72john was the drama queen on this board.

The things we say when we are bored. Meh.

Although you aren’t getting much support regarding your reaction to my “insults”, I do apologize for being mean to you this AM. For whatever reason, you frustrate the hell out of me with your constant attacks on men in general and me in particular.

You claimed earlier that “honesty rocks”. The most honest thing that I can say to you is that you are your own worst enemy. Though you think my blog compassion for you is some kind of manipulative stunt, it isn’t. For whatever reason, our Maker designed me to care about others in this world, even strangers I’ve never met. As much of a hard time that I’ve given you and lozen for your constant whining, there’s nothing more that I would love to see than both of you coming on here with a statement that things are going well and that you are happy. I guess in the end, it’s none of my business, but that’s how I feel.

I’m sorry again for going out of my way to be mean to you. You probably didn’t deserve it.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Sorry to all the bloggers for causing a disruption today. I was actually enjoying the music discussion. Unfortunately, this blog has really gone to pot with the pornographic spam, however. Though Andrea cam on and gave some lip service about stopping it, it appears to be worse than ever this week.

I have enjoyed chatting with each and every one of you, and will miss tossing ideas around after I return to work. In my business, you have to be ultra-diplomatic in order to be successful, so I’m not able to put forth the honesty in real life that I am here. Maybe that’s true for many of you as well.

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

kimberly and bruno …

see??? that’s what I love about music - it soooooo brings people together …

I appreciate the sentiment, USinUK, but I think it’s a lost cause for me and kimberly to ever come together—on anything.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Kind of confusing since the comment The things we say when we are bored. Meh. was mine.

You claimed earlier that “honesty rocks”.

I took that as sarcasm. The truth is that I firmly believe that one must look at the raw facts and truth of a case and THEN temper it with compassion.

If your basis is compassion first and facts afterwards, every time you learn something new that affects how you feel about the person/case you have to readjust everything. If you look to truth/facts first you always have a stable basis to return to.

Hope all have a good weekend. Cheers.

By LaughoftheWeek_II

May 9, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Most people call it between jobs.

Seems some call it I’m so smart I retired(until I have to find a job again)

By Bruno

May 9, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

If your basis is compassion first and facts afterwards, every time you learn something new that affects how you feel about the person/case you have to readjust everything. If you look to truth/facts first you always have a stable basis to return to.

Thanks again for your insights and friendship, JokesOn.

I was out of line today. I’m sorry.