AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > April > 19 > Entry
Should President Bush boycott the Olympic opening ceremonies?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
A big draw to my husband’s job transfer in 1995 was that we would be moving to a future Olympic city. Having the games in Atlanta was such an honor I made sure to be a part of it, even though I had just given birth. It’s troublesome that such a potentially unifying event — this year in China — is so often tinged with politics.
Yet when Hillary Clinton, John McCain and others transcend partisan politics in wanting President Bush to boycott the opening ceremonies, I sit up and take notice. It looks like many Americans are doing the same, following continued abuses in Darfur and increasingly alarming events in Tibet. Less than a year ago, a Zogby International poll showed that 39 percent of Americans felt that the IOC shouldn’t have awarded the Olympics to China, due to their poor human rights record. A recent poll shows that now 70 percent of respondents feel that way.
One might argue that what’s done is done, and we should keep political friction off the field. I couldn’t agree more. Yet the opening ceremonies are not the games themselves. They’re a country’s shining hour, the glitzy A-list party with a spotlight on the unique achievements of a hosting nation. Olympic propaganda — remember Hitler’s triumph in 1936? — is a particularly effective way for closed societies to “prove” to their citizens that their actions must be right with the world. So it’s telling that few outside the Chinese press still dub a protest-plagued torch run with the P.R. manufactured tagline: “a journey of friendship, peace and harmony.”
Some have suggested that Bush should continue to state that he will attend the ceremony, while warning President Hu Juntao that growing political pressure is making it hard for him to stick to that plan. For all we know, the President is doing that right now, giving China an opportunity to save face while forcing change behind the scenes. I certainly hope so.
Over 300 gold medals will be handed out in Beijing this summer. We look forward to watching the U.S. garner our share of those, yet a gold in the commitment to human rights would be even more exciting.
Rebuttal
Anyone who argues that Bush should even consider boycotting the Opening Ceremonies doesn’t really understand China - and it is disturbing that everyone vying to be our next president seems to fall into that category. My father has worked in China for many years with the World Bank, and I’m the only one in my immediate family who hasn’t lived in China and doesn’t speak Chinese. But even with my indirect awareness, I reflexively winced when I first heard someone suggest the U.S. skip out to “send a message.”
It is precisely because the Opening Ceremonies are a country’s shining hour that a boycott would be the gravest insult to the proud Chinese people. The Chinese feel honored by the approaching Olympics, and have been preparing for it for seven years. As national security adviser Stephen Hadley recently explained, it’s not just important to “deal with Tibet issue,” but to recognize that “it’s also an issue of the Chinese people, who are very invested in the Olympics, who see it as a coming of age for China.”
People often forget that China is still a very developing country; most Chinese are still agrarian, and the country doesn’t expect telephone service to reach every village for another 12 years. Yes, in preparation for the Olympics the Communist government has made many hard-line decisions with which I deeply disagree. Yes, China’s handling of Tibet is extremely troubling, as are its many human-rights abuses. I am especially angered by persecution of millions in the underground church.
But it is also true that the country and its leaders have come a very long way in just a few decades - which is practically hasty for a civilization thousands of years old. Comparisons to Hitler and his systematic genocide are ludicrous. China’s leaders are at least trying to address issues that matter to its people and the world.
The whole point of the Olympics - from the moment the Opening Ceremonies start — is to set aside legitimate national differences and come together in a spirit of goodwill. Even the exiled Dalai Lama supports Beijing hosting the Olympics.
What we do about the Opening Ceremonies will indeed send a message to the people of China. Let’s hope it is the right one.
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By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Well, I’m glad to see that Andrea is reading the blog, because she took this week’s topic directly from my blog two weeks ago:
By El Perro
April 10, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this
Does anyone have any opinions about the ongoing interruptions of the Olympic torch ceremonies? As much as I support autonomy for Tibet and increased human rights for all Chinese, I think the efforts to extinguish the Olympic torch are the wrong way to bring attention to the issues. Ditto for the threatened ban on the Opening Ceremonies. The Olympics are supposed to be a time for bringing people together. If China wasn’t qualified to host the Games, then the Olympic committee shouldn’t have awarded them the privilege of being hosts in the first place. It all reminds me of the 1980 boycott of the Games by Jimmy Carter, followed by a reciprocal ban by the Soviets in 1984. In both cases, the boycotts accomplished exactly nada, with the exception of screwing a bunch of athletes out of their opportunity to fulfill their lifelong dreams of competing on an international level. The Olympics should always be above political disputes, IMO. That is the whole purpose for holding them.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
Frankly, I think Andrea’s politics are a little, shall we say confused, in light of her support of “opening a dialogue with Raoul Castro”. Here’s a quote from her monologue that week:
Imposing preconditions, such as the release of political prisoners, before any dialogue has an emotional appeal but ultimately makes no sense. “To change the relationship, we have to talk.” McCoy advises. “The whole idea of preconditions is illogical. You have to talk to get movement going for the change that you want.”
So, in essence, Andrea thinks we should give Raoul Castro all the respect in the world and impose no preconditions to opening talks with Cuba. At the same time, she thinks we should try to humiliate the Chinese by refusing to honor their efforts to present a beautiful Opening Ceremony which should foster a good feeling worldwide. Sounds like muddled political correctness at its worst to me.
The bottom line is that for many small countries around the globe, like Tobago, the Opening Ceremony is their Olympics. Because their athletes have virtually no chance to win a medal, their only chance to be recognized on an international platform and to have their national anthem played is during the Opening Ceremonies. While some viewers think the OC is a boring “parade of nations”, for me it is always one of the highlights of the entire Olympic Games because it gives me a chance to see peoples from every country of the world marching proudly in their native costumes, carrying their flag proudly, and hearing their respective national anthems. For Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and now Andrea to suggest that this be all taken away from them, all canceled due to disagreements with the choice of the host country by the Olympic Committee, is beyond stupid to me. It’s borderline criminal.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
BTW, if anyone decides to talk about real issues this week while I’m away, I’d like to hear some feedback from the dim-bulb liberals regarding the disastrous political platforms advanced by Hillary and Obama. I’ll repeat my post from two weeks ago:
HEALTH CARE
Both say they have a goal of providing universal coverage and will try to lower costs to make it more affordable. The biggest difference is that Clinton would require everyone to get health insurance while Obama would not. Clinton says her plan is the only one that is truly universal because people won’t get coverage unless they are required to, similar to auto insurance. Obama says people will get insurance only if they can afford it.
I’m so glad that both Obama and Hillary “know what’s best for me” and are willing to use the point of a gun to extract money from me so that I am forced to pay for other people’s poor health due to their poor lifestyle choices. The comparison of health care insurance to auto insurance is completely invalid. Auto insurance is essentially liability insurance—it protects other people we might harm due to an auto accident. Poor lifestyle choices primarily affect the one making the poor choices.
HOUSING
Both want to help homeowners facing foreclosure, but Clinton’s plan includes a five-year freeze on interest rates for all subprime mortgages, which often go to borrowers with the poorest credit. Obama disagrees with the proposed freeze, saying it will drive up interest rates and keep other people from getting mortgages.
Both candidates also support legislation to help homeowners with “underwater mortgages” — meaning their homes are worth less than the mortgage. That legislation would provide government guarantees for their mortgages, but Clinton wants to go one step further than Obama. She wants the federal government to buy underwater mortgages and reduce payments to a level homeowners can afford.
Brilliant plan: Give anyone who purchased a home they couldn’t afford more of MY money so that they can continue to live in luxury while I continue to live below my means. The upshot of all these “bail-out” schemes is simple: No lender will ever give out a “sub-prime” mortgage ever again, so that poor people will NEVER have a chance at home ownership. Pure genius.
EDUCATION
Obama has called for something that irks teachers’ unions. He says educators should be rewarded based on performance as long as test scores aren’t the sole measure. Clinton says she would support merit pay, as long as it was based on school-wide performance and not the individual teacher.
At the college level, both want to provide more tuition relief through tax credits — up to $3,500 for Clinton and $4,000 for Obama. Obama also would require something Clinton does not. Students would have to perform 100 hours of community service to qualify each year.
Total crap. Teachers make good money already, all their whining about long hours aside. No other job I know of provides 4 months of vacation per year. I’m all for merit pay, but it needs to be linked to some objective measure, like test scores. Hillary’s plan would only serve to punish teachers who choose to work in “disadvantaged” schools. Group-think at its worst.
RETIREMENT
Both candidates say they would help low- and middle-income workers set up personal retirement accounts and provide government matches for the first $1,000 saved annually. But they would go about it differently.
Clinton would match 100 percent for families earning $60,000 or less, with smaller breaks for those earning up to $100,000. Obama would match 50 percent of the first $1,000 for families making less than $75,000.
A chicken in every pot! And just where does the money come from for all these “matching” schemes? Oh that’s right, from other people. Can anyone say “Income Redistribution”?
On Social Security, Clinton has refused to say publicly what options she would consider to keep the system afloat long term. Obama has said the best choice is to raise Social Security taxes on people earning more than $200,000.
How about fiscal responsibility across the board? No, too much work. Let’s just redistribute the wealth.
FOREIGN POLICY
The debate over whether the president should directly negotiate with rogue leaders has been one of the most prominent issue differences in the campaign. Obama says he would meet with heads of state in places like Cuba, Iran and North Korea. Clinton says those meetings could be used for propaganda and her first response will be outreach through other diplomatic channels.
Hmmm. An actual difference in their platforms. Hillary sound suspiciously “conservative” on this one.
IMMIGRATION
Another much-discussed division: whether to give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. Obama says yes, for safety reasons. Clinton says no.
So Obama wants to reward illegal immigrants with a driver’s license, while Hillary pretends to be a conservative once again.
TAXES
Both candidates would repeal Bush’s tax cuts on wealthy Americans to pay for their programs. Obama also has a plan for across-the-board tax cuts for most workers. Clinton doesn’t support Obama’s plan because of it $80 billion cost and because it would apply to families with significant incomes. Obama’s campaign says it would begin a phase-out for households that earn around $150,000.
More income redistribution. If Hillary felt so bad about the “rich” not paying enough taxes, why doesn’t she offer to kick in more of that $109,000,000 that she and Bill earned the last 7 years? As populist liberals, there is nothing stopping them from voluntarily giving while not pressing a gun to the side of the head of the rest of us.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Good luck to all this week.
P.S. to Mara: Sorry, I did all I could do to muzzle Other Truth last week. Apparently the guy has no sense of self-awareness. Like JokesOn said, we’re all a little crazy; that can’t be helped. Crazy and self-aware is acceptable, but crazy and not self-aware is to be feared. Of course, I think Other Truth has plenty of company on this blog in that regard, but I won’t name any names for now…..
By Lynne
April 20, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Boycott China for what?? Is there a boycott of Walmart? Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up? Please, gimme a break. The Chinese should write “screw you” on every box that gets shipped over here, and see what happens….nothing. The first time I drive by a Walmart Supercenter and the parking lot is just half full, then I’ll seriously believe anyone really cares what China’s government is doing, until then, please quit it with the “boycott” mess.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
El Perro
What is wrong with you? I haven’t addressed Mara in months. If the very fact that I occasionally visit here and discuss issues with the only liberal that I believe can stage an informed argument, USinUK, while defending myself against your hysterical nonsense, then she has some serious mental problems, sort of like you.
You and chuck flame for hours about how each other are liars, constantly talk about whether or not each other should even be alive and them you set on your self built judges seat and insist that I am the problem here.
Get a clue, Pal.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Lynne
So Walmart is the only problem? Not Target, not K-Mart, not Best Buy, not Circuit City, not Bed Bath and Beyond, not any of the hundreds of other big box stores that live and die by selling Chinese made goods?
Just Walmart, huh?
You really need to stop listening to the Union produced propaganda.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
As far as this week’s subject:
Do we only want good relationships with brutal Islamic countries? Who are the people that Obama claims that he would be able to bring to the table? Aren’t they guilty of horrible atrocities?
It appears that the opposition to strengthening our relationship with a huge trade partner is based on the fact that Bush wants to do it. Bush is for it. We are against it.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Boycott China for what?? Is there a boycott of Walmart? Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up? Please, gimme a break. The Chinese should write “screw you” on every box that gets shipped over here, and see what happens….nothing. The first time I drive by a Walmart Supercenter and the parking lot is just half full, then I’ll seriously believe anyone really cares what China’s government is doing, until then, please quit it with the “boycott” mess.
Excellent points, Lynne. Like me, you apparently see the proposed boycott as nothing more than window dressing.
You really need to stop listening to the Union produced propaganda.
Other Truth—This is a perfect example of why you drive people away. Instead of agreeing or disagreeing with Lynne’s intelligent point, you metamorphose her argument into some kind of Union apologist position, which wasn’t her point at all. She merely used WalMart as an example.
As for truthfulness, I’ve never lied about anything on the blog. chuck, on the other hand, lies constantly.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
It appears that the opposition to strengthening our relationship with a huge trade partner is based on the fact that Bush wants to do it. Bush is for it. We are against it.
Another example of your shallow thinking, Other Truth. Liberals constantly discredit themselves by claiming that all conservatives get their ideas from Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. You do the same exact thing, only from the opposite perspective. Just last week you accused every liberal thinker of “repeating the DNC’s talking points”, etc. By doing that, you shut the door to any intelligent conversation, and in the act, besmirch all conservatives. Get it?
By Truth
April 20, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
El Perro
As for truthfulness, I’ve never lied about anything on the blog. chuck, on the other hand, lies constantly.
Yesterday, I went through every one of Mara’s posts. She posted here after I ahd posted earlier in the week. She also never said a single word about me, any post that I had made or anything about leaving for the week because of me or anything else. YOU are making her out to be a complete nut case, sort of like you.
But in spite of that, you have now posted several posts claiming that I, even though I hardly even posted last week ran her off.
I’m not sure what your definition of lying is, but I would call you a complete liar for your accusations against me.
And considering how you treat others, including me, how dare you even approach me complaining about a civil posts that I made to another poster.
You are not the policeman of this blog, especially considering your own outrageous and insulting behavior.
You have accused me of being an alcoholic when I have never had any problem with substance abuse of any kind. Perhaps this is why you became a Chiropractor instead of a real doctor.
Hopefully, while you are in California, you will chill out and slowly pull your head out of your as*. This will be a good week here, absent of your incessant whining.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
El Perro
Listen, you little twit. It is none of your business how I address anyone. I am tired of it.
You have no idea if chuck is lying. Have you ever met him? Do you know for a fact that he isn’t a teacher as you babble on and on and on about every day of every week.
We are all tired of your dozens of posts a day that do nothing but preach and lecture toward some while your repeated attempts at smoozing several of the women is as transparent as your own problems.
When are you leaving?
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Yesterday, I went through every one of Mara’s posts. She posted here after I ahd posted earlier in the week. She also never said a single word about me, any post that I had made or anything about leaving for the week because of me or anything else. YOU are making her out to be a complete nut case, sort of like you.
You mean when you posted under Other names, like “brooks”? You’re such a liar that you won’t even admit which posts are yours. You tried to claim earlier that you and “Other Jack” are two different people. Give me a break, will you?
And considering how you treat others, including me, how dare you even approach me complaining about a civil posts that I made to another poster.
The fact is, 90% of your posts contain insults. That wouldn’t be a problem if your insults were actually based on what the person said. Your retort to Lynne is a perfecdt example. She said, and I quote, “Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up”? You tried to insult her by replying, and I quote, “So Walmart is the only problem? Not Target, not K-Mart, not Best Buy, not Circuit City, not Bed Bath and Beyond, not any of the hundreds of other big box stores that live and die by selling Chinese made goods”?
Now, if you were really a man, and not, well, whatever you are, you would admit your error and apologize to Lynne. Unfortunately, this is only one of hundreds of times when you misread other’s posts, misquote them, then insult them based upon your own misreading and misquoting. Mara specifically said that she won’t blog when you are here because of this trend. And, frankly, I don’t blame her. Talking to you is like trying to reason with an Alzheimer’s patient.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
El Perro
If I were a real man? And you give me hell for insulting others.
So where is your apology to me for claiming that I ran Mara off, liar. BTW, that’s your new name: liar. Sums it up quite nicely. And the difference between you and chuck is that you call chuck a liar the same uninformed ignorant way you called me an alcoholic, but I proved you are a liar and I did it with ease.
You are such a blathering idiot. Now spend the rest of this glorious day setting around sulking. I have a woman to meet and some serious fun to have.
I’ll have a drink and a hug, just for you. (BTW, I CAN have a drink because I have control of myself, unlike you.)
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Easy and short answer on the actual topic: No. If anything should have been done the committee should not have awarded the games to china to begin with.
I’m so glad that both Obama and Hillary “know what’s best for me” and are willing to use the point of a gun to extract money from me so that I am forced to pay for other people’s poor health due to their poor lifestyle choices.
Saw a good public television show that went to 7 countries that had universal health care. Each and every one of them did indeed have superior care as compared to the US; and it was cheaper to run (3-5% administration costs where as the US has 16% and rising). The best one was…Taiwan, which took the best parts of each of the current systems.
The best systems had a no opt-out option (otherwise it slowly runs out of money and comes out of taxes anyways - like with our system), and was paid on a sliding scale system (the more you make the more you pay). All insurance companies had to charge the same amount and was based on a yearly (maybe every 5 years) number. They compete for customers by offering extra options that you can buy into.
It is actually very important, for the individual as well as a nation, to cover the jobless. The less one makes the more probable they will get ill; especially if out of work.
I understand, dog, that you do not want to pay for the poor, but that exact mentality is what is going to lead this country to be fill with only the rich having full health care and the poor having nothing but last minute care which is more expensive than paying for them to begin with. The problem with that logic is also the belief that in our system you do not pay for them: you pay, but only when they are past preventative measure and then it costs way more than it would have to treat them earlier.
Besides, the mentality of “I am gonna get whats mine and leave the rest to fend for themselves” is counter to any society that states that it is for All The People. You will have two groups in the end: the elitist and the indigent.
I am going to ignore the ranting going on….same crap that was promised not to continue. Can anyone say restraint??
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
You have no idea if chuck is lying. Have you ever met him? Do you know for a fact that he isn’t a teacher as you babble on and on and on about every day of every week.
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Working out of country for next two weeks, maybe three. So will be rarely posting.
This is my third “tour” (no, not military of course) and so far what I have see in eastern europe and the far east bolsters what I already knew: The US does have many things right, or on the right track, but that does not mean we have everything right as so many “patriots” would demand.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
So where is your apology to me for claiming that I ran Mara off, liar.
She specifically said that she was tired of you “twisting her words”. But, since you’re not a man, you can’t own up to that.
I’ll have a drink and a hug, just for you.
Drink, and hug away. Lord knows you need it.
And BTW, your quip about chiropractors not being real doctors only reveals your total ignorance about the real truth in life. Maybe if your friend who had major back surgery and who is now facing a lifetime of pain had tried a chiropractor first, she may not have needed surgery. I saved hundreds of people from debilitating surgery in my career. Your assertion a few months ago that seeing a chiro somehow creates a need for continuing care is pure bunk. People return for care because they enjoy feeling good. If your friends incorporated some posture exercises, they might not need to go as often. I’ll leave you with a quote attributed to Thomas Edison:
“The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest his patient in the care of the human frame, in diet and in the cause and prevention of disease.”
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
You tried to claim earlier that you and “Other Jack” are two different people. Give me a break, will you?
Notice he changed his name and hid as soon as he made a pact to be civil? Guess he just could not perform.
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
Take it easy dog, off to the airport.
Do not let the fools get to you.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
I understand, dog, that you do not want to pay for the poor, but that exact mentality is what is going to lead this country to be fill with only the rich having full health care and the poor having nothing but last minute care which is more expensive than paying for them to begin with. The problem with that logic is also the belief that in our system you do not pay for them: you pay, but only when they are past preventative measure and then it costs way more than it would have to treat them earlier.
My concern, JokesOn, is not for “paying for the poor”, as you somehow believe. I’ve given tons of money to charity over the years, including Operation Smile and Medicina Sin Fronteras (Doctors Without Borders). My concern is based on human nature. Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain. Frankly, I don’t believe people will take better care of themselves just because the government is involved—i.e. the preventative care you speak of. Preventative care is available right now for a very low cost. If people choose not to utilize it, they have only themselves to blame.
As for your concern about a “two-tiered society”, the bottom line is you have two choices: (1) A society in which everyone is “equal”, which means equally near the bottom, or (2) A tiered society in which “all boats rise with the rising tide”.
I don’t mind debating health care with you, but please don’t mischaracterize my position. Maybe my tongue-in-cheek quotes have caused you to doubt my compassion, but lack of compassion isn’t what drives my views. In the most compassionate scenario, people take responsibility for their own health care, and doctors are honest and charge reasonable fees. The two biggest problems in our current system are lack of awareness and responsibility of patients, and greedy, dishonest doctors.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
I am going to ignore the ranting going on….same crap that was promised not to continue. Can anyone say restraint??
Do not let the fools get to you.
Wise advice, JokesOn. I hope to be a better man one day. I’d like to believe I want the best for everyone, and that my motivation for criticizing chuck and Other Truth is to challenge them to be better people, but it’s very likely that my motivations are darker. Self-analysis of our own motivations is likely the trickiest proposition in life, because we are all ultimately selfish by definition.
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
If what you say is true, JokesOn, that would be one of the funniest things I ever learned. It would make sense, however, based on all the “credibility stretching” tales that chuck tells. Last week he claimed that he “campaigned” door-to-door for Nixon at age 10. What a tale!
Take it easy dog, off to the airport.
Have a great time, buddy. Hopefully your ambassadorship will help re-establish some cred for the US in the Eastern European nations you visit. While I do support many of Bush’s decisions, his lack of diplomacy has cost us dearly. Wish me luck in Vegas!
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this
My concern is based on human nature. Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain.
In many other areas I would agree, but when it comes to health care I cannot fathom people going to doctors and getting treatment just for kicks and because they can. I also think your position that there are only two stations people will have, all at the bottom or heavily stratified is overly simplistic. There are societies that show that there can be a balance.
As for preventative health care being cheap and available, I have not experienced that. I have some chronic pain from a lower back injury and when I was out of a job I had no way of getting meds or physical therapy that would keep it in check. After 3 weeks, I was nearly immobilized, making it that much harder to get re-employed. If someone else was in my shoes, coupled by a family or other complications, I could easily see them going into a serious downward spiral.
I feel that if you play these scenarios out that you will see that we can pay a lot at the middle/end of peoples illnesses or a fraction of the price up front.
I agree with wanting people to be more responsible, etc; but wanting something does not necessarily make it come true. We have to deal with where people actually are, not as if they are already there and if not say “too bad.”
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
FWIW … Perro, I’m sorta with you on this one … I definitely think that the US should participate in the Olympics and that we should have an envoy at the opening ceremony. I do think that more can be done though open and frank discussion than by shutting out our opponents (god knows, Castro stuck around long enough!)
As for Andrea’s citing the Berlin Olympics, 2 words: Jesse Owens. His 4 Olympic gold medals showed up Hitler in a way that no boycott ever could.
Lastly, Jokesy is right - the time to boycott Beijing was before the Olympic committee made the decision. The best thing to do now is to let the athletes get on with it!!
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain.
oh, dear … the old “they’re going to ration my health care” battlecry. honey, what do you think health insurance companies do??? hmmmm??? most have listed doctors (you have to choose from a list included in the plan) … you’re covered for only 1 physical a year … you’re covered for only 1 pap a year (although, the insurance companies want to change that to 1 every 3 years) … you’re covered for only 1 mammogram every 3-5 years if you’re under 50 unless your doctor finds something … I could go on …
wake. up. health care in the US IS rationed. AND you get the dubious honor of having the most expensive health care system of all the industrialized nations for this rationed health care. OH, and lest we forget, you also get the worst care for the most expensive rationed health care.
yeah. boy-howdy. I can see why you love this system.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
In many other areas I would agree, but when it comes to health care I cannot fathom people going to doctors and getting treatment just for kicks and because they can.
From my experiences in health care, I can vouch that there are people who build their lives around going to the doctor, if only to get attention. It is possible that there is NO system which will put a check on that, but at least having to pay something out of pocket limits it.
As for preventative health care being cheap and available, I have not experienced that. I have some chronic pain from a lower back injury and when I was out of a job I had no way of getting meds or physical therapy that would keep it in check. After 3 weeks, I was nearly immobilized, making it that much harder to get re-employed. If someone else was in my shoes, coupled by a family or other complications, I could easily see them going into a serious downward spiral.
Preventative health care would mean avoiding the back pain in the first place through injury avoidance, regular exercise, and proper diet. Once you have a chronic problem, then certainly low-cost maintenance care makes sense. In all scenarios, however, there is much a person can do on their own. Professional care is not always required.
I agree with wanting people to be more responsible, etc; but wanting something does not necessarily make it come true. We have to deal with where people actually are, not as if they are already there and if not say “too bad.”
This is definitely the gray area between our positions. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” I would say rather than going to the extreme of making health care a quasi-Constitutional right, we should spend more time teaching children to be healthy. That means getting the candy and soda machines out of school, re-instituting recess at the elementary level, and making “health” class in HS just that—instruction on being healthy. But what I see is the opposite: Unhealthy behavior is basically encouraged at every level. The result? Somewhere around 20% of young children are already morbidly obese.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this
oh, dear … the old “they’re going to ration my health care” battlecry. honey, what do you think health insurance companies do??? hmmmm??? most have listed doctors (you have to choose from a list included in the plan) … you’re covered for only 1 physical a year … you’re covered for only 1 pap a year (although, the insurance companies want to change that to 1 every 3 years) … you’re covered for only 1 mammogram every 3-5 years if you’re under 50 unless your doctor finds something … I could go on …
wake. up. health care in the US IS rationed. AND you get the dubious honor of having the most expensive health care system of all the industrialized nations for this rationed health care. OH, and lest we forget, you also get the worst care for the most expensive rationed health care.
yeah. boy-howdy. I can see why you love this system.
My health care isn’t rationed in any way, form, or fashion, USinUK, because—put your seat belt on—I pay for it myself out of pocket. If you have been following my posts, my strong opinion is that the third-party payor system is the real culprit in the US. Because MDs and other health care providers don’t have to look the consumer in the eye and charge a fair price that they can afford, fraud is endemic to the system. As such, I don’t believe that further systemization of fraud is the way to go. I advocate returning health insurance to its rightful place as a hedge against catastrophic loss.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
why are the 2 mutually exclusive?? yes, I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our children to be healthy in schools, we should remove the candy/soda machines AND we need to reinstate recess and PE.
however, that only addresses part of the problem. people will still need to go to the doctor - you can be the right weight and still have high cholesterol and blood pressure. you can have good cholesterol and blood pressure and still get cancer. you can be perfectly healthy and have a car accident. ALL of the chronic and urgent care needed for the above is expensive enough to drive the average family into bankruptcy with the current health system.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
The bottom line, USinUK and JokesOn, is that our “model” for health care is flawed. MDs are basically glorified drug peddlers. “Better living through chemistry”. If you bother to do some research, it is estimated that a high percentage of drugs and surgery are either ineffective and/or unnecessary. Health doesn’t come from a bottle, not even a vitamin bottle. Health comes from God, pure and simple. As such, the more we choose to align ourselves with God’s Way—i.e. good food, exercise, good posture, etc., the healthier we become. My opinion on this topic is not “religiously” motivated, but is based on eight years of college courses on science and health care. So, while you guys want to find ways to spread the costs of the current, erroneous system around, I want to change it entirely, beginning with proper education of young people regarding the truth about health and health care.
The best study I ever saw found that the longest living people were the ones who visited the doctor the least. So much for your “preventative health care” argument. Does that mean that these folks simply didn’t take care of themselves?? Heck no. It means they took care of themselves. In my own case, my lifetime medical expenses are just a few thousand dollars, almost half of which I had to spend on STD testing due to sleeping with a liberal.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
My health care isn’t rationed in any way, form, or fashion, USinUK, because—put your seat belt on—I pay for it myself out of pocket
Perro - we’ve had this discussion before - if you’re paying out of your own pocket for doctor visits and treatment, then you’re paying at least 2 or 3 times the amount insurance companies would pay for the same visit and the same treatment. (in other words … if you’re paying $150 to visit your GP for an annual physical, then BC/BS or another insurance company would have negotiated the $50-75 for the same visit)
so, while your care may not be “rationed”, you’re paying top dollar for it.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
why are the 2 mutually exclusive?? yes, I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our children to be healthy in schools, we should remove the candy/soda machines AND we need to reinstate recess and PE.
Maybe the two aren’t specifically mutually exclusive, but I’m not hearing any legitimate cries to improve the health of our youths—only cries to take more money out of my pocket to pay for the lard-asses who don’t take care of themselves in the first place. In your case, USinUK, this is the first time to my knowledge that you have even paid lip service to the real “health care crisis” in America—obesity.
however, that only addresses part of the problem. people will still need to go to the doctor - you can be the right weight and still have high cholesterol and blood pressure. you can have good cholesterol and blood pressure and still get cancer. you can be perfectly healthy and have a car accident. ALL of the chronic and urgent care needed for the above is expensive enough to drive the average family into bankruptcy with the current health system.
BP checks and cholesterol screening costs pennies. That’s not the problem. The problem is what do you do about it once you discover a problem? Oh that’s right, take more drugs. MDs are there for one reason: to sell drugs.
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
From my experiences in health care, I can vouch that there are people who build their lives around going to the doctor, if only to get attention.
Ahh yes, the top two countries that provide universal health care also had medical cards and if someone made a large number of visits in a short amount of time they would have to meet with a provider to see what they needed differently including whether they were “seeking attention.”
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
Perro - we’ve had this discussion before - if you’re paying out of your own pocket for doctor visits and treatment, then you’re paying at least 2 or 3 times the amount insurance companies would pay for the same visit and the same treatment. (in other words … if you’re paying $150 to visit your GP for an annual physical, then BC/BS or another insurance company would have negotiated the $50-75 for the same visit)
Not true at all, USinUK. I don’t pay more for my health care than those who have insurance; I pay less. It’s called bargaining. Plus, I don’t need that BS that is called an annual physical. I put my efforts into staying healthy, not running to the doctor several times a year. Why?? Becasue, frankly, I know more about health care than the average MD does. Yes, they know more about what drug Merck tells them to sell to people, but I don’t consider that to be legitimate health care. If you bother to read up on treatment of back problems by MDs vs. chiropractors, you might get a clue.
Once again, from Thomas Edison: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest his patient in the care of the human frame, in diet and in the cause and prevention of disease”.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Ahh yes, the top two countries that provide universal health care also had medical cards and if someone made a large number of visits in a short amount of time they would have to meet with a provider to see what they needed differently including whether they were “seeking attention.”
Big Brother to the rescue! ; > }
My biggest concern of turning my health care is hidden in your statement: control. Maybe you are comfortable with letting someone else make your health care decisions for you, including determining if you were “crazy” or not, but I’m just not going to do it. I’m voting McCain.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Another greatly under-reported cause of poor health is poor posture—specifically the poor posture which develops from sitting at a computer all day long. When your neck juts forward to a significant degree, your life span is shortened significantly. There was a study done in Britain with about 4000 women several years back. Those who had a reversed cervical curve lived almost 10 years less.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
Catch you guys in a little while. I’ve got to pack for my trip. I figure I’ll stop by chuck’s gas station and let him check my oil and wash my windshield for me.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
In your case, USinUK, this is the first time to my knowledge that you have even paid lip service to the real “health care crisis” in America—obesity
well, okay. let’s talk about the fatties, if that’s what you’d like. but don’t stop with the schools … let’s talk about the restaurants that serve GINORMOUS portions - we’re talking 2 or 3 times the recommended serving size of protein when you get a sandwich, much less getting a dinner-size entree.
let’s talk about 7-11 serving LITRE-size Big-Gulps of coke and other sugary sodas.
let’s talk about the restaurants that aren’t fast-food but aren’t “nice” restaurants (Outback, Applebees, Friday’s, etc) - the ones who serve fried, cheese-and-bacon laden, ridiculously portioned meals. yeah, they have salads, but they all have cheese, sour cream, fried chicken, etc - so, really, are just as bad as the burgers.
let’s talk about the number of families that don’t cook anymore - or, if the family does have dinner together, they’re all sitting around the TV when they’re eating it.
and, lastly, let’s talk about the decline and fall of WALKING anywhere. good grief, sidewalks are more endangered than the polar bear.
again, I agree that schools need to really do some major changes, but let’s be honest here - they’re just small potatoes (so to speak) when it comes to the overall obesity problem in the US.
(and, for the sake of disclosure - my BMI is 23 - I need to shift about 12 pounds)
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
let’s talk about the restaurants that serve GINORMOUS portions - we’re talking 2 or 3 times the recommended serving size of protein when you get a sandwich, much less getting a dinner-size entree.
let’s talk about 7-11 serving LITRE-size Big-Gulps of coke and other sugary sodas.
let’s talk about the restaurants that aren’t fast-food but aren’t “nice” restaurants (Outback, Applebees, Friday’s, etc) - the ones who serve fried, cheese-and-bacon laden, ridiculously portioned meals. yeah, they have salads, but they all have cheese, sour cream, fried chicken, etc - so, really, are just as bad as the burgers.
Sorry, I don’t place the blame for poor health choices on restaurants. I put the “onus” on the consumers who CHOOSE to patronize those places in the first place. Or maybe you think Big Brother should FORCE restaurants to serve only “healthy: foods and reasonable portions. If so, you have a lot in common with that fascist, chuck. Sorry, I believe in “Caveat Emptor”—Buyer Beware. Now schools are a different matter. Kids aren’t wise enough to make good choices. That’s why I say limit their choices while they are in school.
let’s talk about the number of families that don’t cook anymore - or, if the family does have dinner together, they’re all sitting around the TV when they’re eating it.
and, lastly, let’s talk about the decline and fall of WALKING anywhere. good grief, sidewalks are more endangered than the polar bear.
I agree—that’s what we need to be talking about, not about how I should pay for the lard-asses.
(and, for the sake of disclosure - my BMI is 23 - I need to shift about 12 pounds)
Well, if you’re going to shift your weight, I hope you shift it upward. ; > } You know I love you, USinUK, no matter what your BMI is. I just don’t want to pay for your health care, that’s all.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
Perro -
Well, if you’re going to shift your weight, I hope you shift it upward
gah - no! I’m talking about shifting it onto some unsuspecting passerby (oh, that it could be that easy!)
as for the restaurants I mentioned - I think it’s more a matter of educating the public what a normal portion size is, how ungodly the fat content is, etc … unfortunately, though, I think the American mindset is “more food for my money” regardless of the cost to their health.
lastly, the only cervix I know if is most definitely NOT in my neck. ;-)
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
My biggest concern of turning my health care is hidden in your statement: control. Maybe you are comfortable with letting someone else make your health care decisions for you, including determining if you were “crazy” or not, but I’m just not going to do it.
I agree with the slippery slope, but you are worried that without control people will abuse the system. This does not translate to big bro determining if you are crazy.
Plus, with our current system big bro decides who and how much coverage they get anyways; not including the lobbyist that decide whats best for us via their bottom lines and profits.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Couldn’t find The Station Agent so my friend put it on her NetFlicks picks. It may be a while, but I’ll see it.
I think most people agree that Bush should attend the opening ceremony. I couldn’t believe that China was chosen. I think the I.O.C. is still mad at us for just having too much fun with the 96 games.
Have a great week. I am having another week of lots and lots of work. I’ll check back occasionally.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
gah - no! I’m talking about shifting it onto some unsuspecting passerby (oh, that it could be that easy!)
I’ll volunteer to take on 4 of those lbs. Now you only need two more volunteers!
as for the restaurants I mentioned - I think it’s more a matter of educating the public what a normal portion size is, how ungodly the fat content is, etc … unfortunately, though, I think the American mindset is “more food for my money” regardless of the cost to their health.
Do you REALLY think it’s just a matter of “education”, dear? Puh-leeze. Common sense alone tells us what is healthy. And it’s not even a case of not enough common sense. It’s lack of discipline and self-love that feeds the problem—literally.
lastly, the only cervix I know if is most definitely NOT in my neck. ;-)
I’ll try to leave that comment alone before I get into too much trouble. ; > }
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
El Perro the liar
She specifically said that she was tired of you “twisting her words”. But, since you’re not a man, you can’t own up to that.
She said that weeks ago. You specifically said that she left last week because I ran her off. You are not only a liar, you are a mental case, inventing problems for others so you can look magnanimous.
It apparently doesn’t bother you that you are ready to make a woman who has done nothing wrong into some sort of paranoid nutcase, just to invent a phantom problem for me.
You mean when you posted under Other names, like “brooks”?
I have no idea who “brooks” is. But it is good that I now have you chasing shadows: yet another sign of your “problem.”
Maybe if your friend who had major back surgery and who is now facing a lifetime of pain had tried a chiropractor first, she may not have needed surgery.
My friend has a degenerative spine disease, hardly something that someone who went to night school for two years would be qualified to treat with an “adjustment”. She had gone to a chiropractor for years and they kept adjusting her and finally injured her. She was able to buy a very nice house with her settlement from the chiropractor, but as she says, she would rather had gone to a MD and had gotten treatment years earlier instead of “adjustments”.
Be proud of what you do, but the reality is that I will be going to someone who has worked like a dog to get into medical school where they studied for 8 to 12 more years instead of someone who had gone to a two year school who’s only qualifications are a GED and a checkbook.
Now before you start whining about me “starting something”, you started this yesterday before anyone else posted here.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
JokesOn
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
Gas station attendant. I see. So he is one of those guys that run out to your car, check your oil and pump your gas.
Have you opened your eyes for the past 30 years? Except for a very few stations, those jobs went away in the 1970s
So you come on here and joke with El Perro the Liar about how you “know” what he does. You have no idea other than the fact that chuck regularly soundly verbally slaps you around at will. And because of this you both decide that he must be a service station attendant, a job that hasn’t existed for 30 years.
Sometimes you both post good, sound arguments, but your temperament is that of a couple of 12 year old boys and you apparently don’t care who you hurt or what you say about others, just to satisfy your adolescent twinges.
Now the two of you will have something to gossip about all week. I’ll try to find the time to drop back in and say hello.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
I agree with the slippery slope, but you are worried that without control people will abuse the system. This does not translate to big bro determining if you are crazy.
Plus, with our current system big bro decides who and how much coverage they get anyways; not including the lobbyist that decide whats best for us via their bottom lines and profits.
JokesOn—Please reread my comments—I don’t support the third party-payor system in any way, form, or fashion, whether privately run or run by the government. Insurance was invented to provide a hedge against catastrophic losses, no more and no less. When you start to include routine costs into “insurance coverage”, it no longer is insurance. At that point it is socialism, collectivism, whatever you to call it. The only system which makes sense to me is to restore consumerism to health care, which means insurance only for catastrophic illnesses like cancer or heart disease.
Put in another way, which do you take better care of: a rental car, or your own car??? Once you remove responsibility from a system, including health care, people start treating it the way they treat a rental car.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
truth -
Couldn’t find The Station Agent so my friend put it on her NetFlicks picks. It may be a while, but I’ll see it.
daaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!
I was looking forward to your rave reviews (although, now I may be building it up too much, raising your expectations too high, so that the movie can only be a let-down).
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
perro -
Do you REALLY think it’s just a matter of “education”, dear? Puh-leeze.
well, as you say, we can’t legislate the fat content at dishes served at restaurants. the only thing we can do is to better educate the public and hope that, person-by-person, they start to make better choices.
the problem with relying on “common sense” - it’s not common enough!! most people eat the way they ate when they were kids - if their parents ate a lot of fried foods … or foods laden with cheese and sour cream … or foods that are nothing but carbs and butter, then they’ll repeat the pattern. if their mothers didn’t cook, then chances are they won’t either. if they weren’t raised to sit at the dinner table and eat, then they’ll be parked in front of the TV, too.
we’ve got a couple of generations of bad habits to break - schools are a good start, but the problem goes WAY beyond that! the US (and the UK, for that matter) has gotten a LOT more sedentary than it was when I was a kid - THAT is the biggest problem.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Be proud of what you do, but the reality is that I will be going to someone who has worked like a dog to get into medical school where they studied for 8 to 12 more years instead of someone who had gone to a two year school who’s only qualifications are a GED and a checkbook.
Give me strength, JokesOn. The fools have come out of the woodwork.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure why I’m wasting my time speaking to you, Other Truth, as it appears your mind is already made up without actually knowing any FACTS, but here goes: (1) The education requirements to enter chiropractic college are virtually the same as they are for medical school. In my own personal case, I turned down Med school in favor of something I actually believed in. (2) There are good and bad people in every profession. I don’t know the facts about your friend’s malpractice sase—maybe it was a legitimate case, maybe it was simply the case of a slick lawyer extracting a settlement from an honest doctor who was only trying to help someone in bad shape. (3) Malpractice rates for chiropractors are approximately 1/40th of the cost for similar coverage for MDs. So, in your blind appeal to authority, you may somehow think that medical care is safer than chiropractic care, but you’re wrong.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
BTW, Other Fool, in the end, chiropractors receive far more education in anatomy, x-ray, etc. in their 4 years of chiropractic college than the average MD ever does. Why?? Because the MDs spend most of their time in school learning about pharmacology—drugs. In the case of your friend, please explain to me how any drug in the world will “cure” DJD—Degenerative Joint Disease. Which, BTW, is a misnomer. It’s not really a “disease”, it’s a “conditon”.
But again, I have no idea why I’m trying to educate you. You made up your mind to remain an idiot your whole life a long time ago.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Before I go, the quirky little video store in little five, where I used to find everything is now closed. They also had great movie posters from every era. Great place, or at least it was.
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
My kids used to call Saturday mornings their boot camp. When they were young, whenever I was in town, I would always have some hike or bike ride or trip to the lake to go swimming planned. It was hard because they wanted to stay in and watch cartoons.
We also always packed their lunch and my ex would really make great lunches for them. She found some book about great kid’s lunches and they loved them.
My son is now in pretty good shape, but he lives in the Mid west and is just now getting out and my daughter has turned into a jock, still taking marshal arts class and beating the crap out of the guys in her class. (You go girl)
The parents have to do it. The schools are dropping the ball, again.
Now, gotta run. Have a good one.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
P.S. Other Truth—If yo notice, I give credit where credit is due. Your recommendation to go to Showcase for photographic equipment was right on the money.
The biggest difference between you and me is that I know when I know something, and I know when I don’t know something. And, when I don’t know something, I’m not afraid to ask someone who does. You, on the other hand, would rather rely on anecdotal evidence, much of which is wrong, in your sweeping condemnation about something which you have no personal knowledge about.
Again, we’re all crazy. The ones who know that are far less dangerous than those who try to convince themselves otherwise.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Truth (and Perro) -
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
I can’t TELL you how much I agree with this statement. I think the eradication of recess was one of the worst mistakes our schools have made - not just because kids need their exercise. Also, kids (especially when they’re younger) need to run around and get their ya-yas out so that they can better focus on their lessons.
As for school lunches - yuk. I have a life-long aversion to lima beans because of cafeteria lunches. Even the smell of them makes me gag. But, there have to be better choices than pizza, burgers and fries. And juice?? have you checked out the sugar content on most juices?? Kids should have a good protein drink like milk - it’ll satisfy them longer than juice which will just boost their sugars only to have them crash in an hour.
Jamie Oliver started a school lunch revolution here - it’s making progress BUT (you’re not going to believe this) a lot of “loving parents” are meeting their kids at the school gates at lunch and passing them burgers and fries. Oliver said that he couldn’t believe that parents were so resistent to healthy lunches until he met with one who was giving her toddler coca cola in a bottle.
THAT’s when he realized the problem needs to be addressed in schools, but that it’s MUCH bigger than that.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
perro -
Again, we’re all crazy. The ones who know that are far less dangerous than those who try to convince themselves otherwise.
HA!!!
great corollary to my motto: We’re all freaks in our own little ways.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
el Perro the Liar
I don’t know the facts about your friend’s malpractice sase
No you don’t, but you were more than willing to claim that if she had adjustments, she probably wouldn’t have needed the surgery, sort of like the way you claimed I was an alcoholic and chuck lied about teaching. You are talking out of your butt to try and make yourself look good.
When her spinal disease started, she did as you say and went to her chiropractor. but their adjustments stopped working. She just hurt more and more, but instead of recognizing that they were in way over their heads and refer her to a bone or spinal specialist, they just kept adjusting and trying more and more radical adjustments. After one particularly brutal session, she couldn’t get out of bed because her lower body didn’t work. They had injured her spine so much that it was swollen and she had temporary paralysis.
Once she could get out of bed, she didn’t want to sue anyone, but when she started getting threatening phone calls about not paying the bill for the visit in which they had injured her, she called an attorney. The settlement was in the millions.
You are right that there are good and bad in all professions. You may want to keep that in mind before you again claim that all MDs just prescribe more and more drugs.
To compare schools like Life College to Tulane or Emory or any other medical school is just silly.
There is a string of Chiropractic clinics in Atlanta that have been here for years and years that is about to be closed because of legal problems of the owners. Seems they have been breaking lots of laws in taking kickbacks from ambulance chasers. It will hit the news before the end of summer.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
By El Perro, 8:49:
This is definitely the gray area between our positions. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” I would say rather than going to the extreme of making health care a quasi-Constitutional right, we should spend more time teaching children to be healthy. That means getting the candy and soda machines out of school, re-instituting recess at the elementary level, and making “health” class in HS just that—instruction on being healthy. But what I see is the opposite: Unhealthy behavior is basically encouraged at every level. The result? Somewhere around 20% of young children are already morbidly obese.
Other Truth, 10:47:
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
Is it my imagination, or is there an echo in here? Seems to happen every time Other Truth and chuck post anything of substance.
Now, gotta run. Have a good one.
Come back when you actually have something original to say, will you? Something hopefully based on facts, and not just your uninformed opinion.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Too many posts, too little time to respond.
1) Of course, in light of the recent human rights atrocities in Tibet, President Bush should boycott the Olympics. I love this statemnt:
If anything should have been done the committee should not have awarded the games to china to begin with.
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO. The crackdown in Tibet happened in the last 3 months. China should be punished for that. The best way to punish communists…especially Asian communists…is to make them “lose face” or embarass them. We should absolutely tell them that we will not be attending the Olympics at all if they don’t immediately get out of Tibet. Additionally, we should take steps to remove them from MFN status until they correct the atrocities that are occurring.
2) He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
I’ve told you before jokeson. Feel free to “out” me as a “gas station attendent”. I did work in a gas station as a young kid, maybe 11-12 years old. My Dad worked in one part time for awhile while he was on the fire department and I made some money in tips working with him on Saturdays and in the summer. Haven’t worked in one since then so feel free.
Anybody notice how jokeson and dog are leaving town at the same time…again?
Dogturd, Not only as a 10 year old, but as a 14 year old in 1972. Voted for my first Republican Presidential candidate in 1976 when I turned 18. Voted for Gerald Ford, though half-heartedly. Campaigned “Religiously” for Reagan in ‘80 and ‘84 as well as working for many local and statewide Republican Candidates throughout the years. Working for Nixon in ‘68 was tough because my Dad was a good ol’ Southern Dem. He ended up voting for Nixon though because he couldn’t stomach the thought of Humphrey and he didn’t believe Wallace could win.
Universal Healthcare AGAIN?!?!?
usinuk, In most HMO plans the list of physicians is HUGE. I know in the State Merit plan, there are many options to choose from and it includes both BCBS plans and UHC plans. In my UHC plan, pretty much every primary care physician in my area is on the plan as are most of the specialists and hospitals. Is there a chance that your physician won’t be on there? Sure there is, but MOST hmo’s offer a “choice” plan that allows you to nominate your physician and if he agrees to the terms you can still use him as your primary care doctor. The price differential for a choice plan vs. a straight hmo is miniscule considering that you get to keep your own doctor.
I read an article in the past couple of days about a recent report on medicare fraud. Here’s one of the quotes from the lead prosecutor on medicare fraud:
“What we find is that the adjudication process of claims is almost entirely automated, and we don’t annually review claims with many of our carriers the way a private insurance company would,” said Ogrosky. “So we’re trusting in the healthcare community, our doctors that care for the elderly and the disabled. We’re trusting that they’re telling the truth.”
This system of “trust” resulted in over $40 Billion dollars of fraud. One electric wheelchair owned by a single fraudulent company was billed to Medicare over 1000 times making the cost to taxpayers for that wheelchair $5,000,000. A company that has to make a profit will not allow that kind of fraud. That’s why private healthcare works better than government healthcare.
Another fraud being perptrated by the media is in the REPORTING of the number of uninsured people in America. Of the so-called “50 million” uninsured Americans over HALF make above the median U.S. income of $46,000 per year. Has it occurred to those of you who want Universal healthcare that there are millions of Americans without HEALTH INSURANCE BECAUSE they CHOOSE other priorities for themselves.
I thought you people on the left were pro-choice. If someone chooses to spend their money on things other than health insurance shouldn’t they have to live with that choice? It seems that ya’ll are only pro-choice when it comes to the life of an unborn baby. When it comes to anything else, you want the government to choose for you.
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
The only system which makes sense to me is to restore consumerism to health care, which means insurance only for catastrophic illnesses like cancer or heart disease.
Sorry man, but unless you can show me a system that exists and works like the one you have in your head, it is all conjecture. These countries currently have working systems, and ours is broke as he!!. If you want our govmt to, through trial and error, create a system while crossing our fingers, I would urge you to rethink think your plan because I do not believe it can be done in any time frame that in meaningful.
Put in another way, which do you take better care of: a rental car, or your own car??? Once you remove responsibility from a system, including health care, people start treating it the way they treat a rental car.
Again, look to the current examples of countries with these systems and show me where that happens. The waste our system has compared to your hypothetical over-use simply does not exist.
Gas station attendant. I see. So he is one of those guys that run out to your car, check your oil and pump your gas.
Funny that I thought you would know what I was referring to. I guess I need to be ultra-specific for you in the future. Got it; although I bet you knew what I meant and could only get a jab in by being myopic. Good luck with that tactic - it will serve you well.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
el Perro the Liar
And my problem with you is that you are making up problems and you don’t care who you hurt in doing so.
If you need to invent problems like the statements about Mara, you must not have much of reality that is really a problem.
I like USinUK not only because she is smart, she also seems to understand how little the words typed on this blog really mean. This is not personal, like you and JokesOn want to make it. These are just people expressing thoughts. And liberals go after conservatives, make vast generalizations and vent, but when the opposite happens, you invent yet another problem with me or chuck. It appears to be some sort of Alpha Male attempt, but you are failing miserably.
I always try to point to specifics, especially when talking to you about the things you do to hurt other people, but you are just able to return statements like “nothing you say ever makes sense, or “I hope you are satisfied for running others off” before you launch into yet another attack on myself or Chuck.
You need to calm down and stop inventing problems. I am not your enemy. You do not know anything about me or chuck or anyone else. Stop trying to make this personal.
And for God’s sake, leave Mara out of this. Stop using the poor woman to try and get at me.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
You can check your own oil….you are a DIPSTICK after all.
By Newsworthy?
April 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
You are talking out of your butt to try and make yourself look good.
And this is NEWS? You’re messing with someone’s personal blog. Can’t you smell those foul doggie dumps?
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
jokesOn
Funny that I thought you would know what I was referring to.
So were you talking about a clerk in a convenience store that sells gas? That is not a gas station attendant. So no, I cannot read your mind and interpret your writings into something that makes sense. I do understand my own limitations. I just wish you and El Perro the Liar understood yours.
You tried to be funny by stating another adolescent insult toward chuck, but it just didn’t work. But when confronted, you try to make it about me, not what you said.
Typical.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
As much as I appreciate the sentiments TRUTH, I really don’t need defending. I enjoy rattling the chains of dumb and dumber on occasion, BUT, I really could not care less what they say about me. It’s a blog dude.
The best thing we can do is ignore the personal garbage they spew and just talk about the topic(s).
Take the pledge with me TRUTH: From now on, I hereby PLEDGE to IGNORE anything said by dogturd and jokeson except for those comments on a specific political, religious, or social topic to which I choose to respond. I further pledge to answer only the merits of the argument made by said posters and make no other comments, personal or otherwise.
Come with me TRUTH. It will take the wind from them. Are you willing?
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO.
And they were still a communist country, which is what I think should have been considered.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
I don’t disagree with you about that jokeson, BUT the situation has changed drastically in the past few months. They are so afraid that some of their people may decide that they want democracy that they are going way beyond what they have done in the past to stifle opposing ideas. It’s occurring not only in Tibet, but throughout China.
THAT’s why we should boycott the games there and remove MFN status.
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 21, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
You’ll missed a very important point. We need to end our participation in the Cashlympics… the Olympic spririt is dead, has been since we let pro athletes participate.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
No argument there Gandalf. I used to contribute money to the U.S. Olympic Team, but I don’t any more. Most of those competitors make more money than I do in these so-called “AMATEUR” sports.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
For any of you who doubt my ability to be charming, I just talked my way out of a speeding ticket. A motorcycle cop caught me doing 83 in a 55 zone. After I got done BSing with him, he gave me a warning.
Take the pledge with me TRUTH: From now on, I hereby PLEDGE to IGNORE anything said by dogturd and jokeson except for those comments on a specific political, religious, or social topic to which I choose to respond. I further pledge to answer only the merits of the argument made by said posters and make no other comments, personal or otherwise.
Good luck on that one, chuckles.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
In honor of my trip out West, I’m going to dedicate the Song of the Day to myself. From Bob Dylan:
So now I’m goin’ back again,
I got to get to her somehow.
All the people we used to know
They’re an illusion to me now.
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenter’s wives.
Don’t know how it all got started,
I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives.
But me, I’m still on the road
Headin’ for another joint
We always did feel the same,
We just saw it from a different point of view,
Tangled up in blue…..
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO. The crackdown in Tibet happened in the last 3 months. China should be punished for that. The best way to punish communists…especially Asian communists…is to make them “lose face” or embarass them. We should absolutely tell them that we will not be attending the Olympics at all if they don’t immediately get out of Tibet. Additionally, we should take steps to remove them from MFN status until they correct the atrocities that are occurring.
One last jab at chuck’s stupidity before I go to the airport. The Dalai Lama was exiled in the 1950s, chuck. The “crackdown” on Tibet isn’t new in any way. As for your ridiculous idea that China or any other Asian nation is worried about losing face, I’ll just let the ridiculousness of that speak for itself.
I’ll make you a deal: You keep Other Truth as your friend, and I’ll keep JokesOn as my friend. I think you and Other Truth are made for each other. Now get back to wiping windows, will you?
By Truth
April 21, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Gandalf, the Grey
the Olympic spririt is dead, has been since we let pro athletes participate.
I’m not so sure. The original idea was to have the best athletes in the world. Professionals are usually the best, at least in most sports.
And before the allowing of pros, some countries were offering athletes that were actually professional. It is not only more fair, it allows anybody and everybody a chance.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
Maybe before you call an idea stupid, you should actually know something about it.
From USA Today
The European Union on Thursday increased pressure on China to talk with Tibet’s spiritual leader with its parliament urging EU leaders to consider a mass boycott of the Olympics opening ceremony. The European Parliament overwhelmingly approved a resolution calling on the 27 governments to explore “the option of non-attendance in the event there is no resumption of dialogue” with the Dalai Lama.
Nations around the world are ruling out a full boycott of the Olympics. But snubbing the opening ceremony en masse would be a potent signal to embarrass Chinese authorities and express displeasure over their handling of the anti-government protests in Tibet that turned violent last month.
The European Parliament also urged China “not to misuse the 2008 Olympic Games by arresting dissidents, journalists and human rights activists in order to prevent demonstrations and reports which the authorities view as embarrassing.”
http://www.rttnews.com/sp/todaystop.asp?date=04/10/2008&item=74&vid=0
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-why-china-might-have-olympic-regrets-800229.html
http://www.slate.com/id/2188754/
The net result of all this is that China has provided the rest of the world with an easy way to criticize its policies. (The same can be said for the international torch relay, which hasn’t exactly been a PR coup for Beijing.) In the past, sending a political message required actually boycotting the games—a step that very few countries appear inclined to take. A full boycott would be a far greater embarrassment for the Chinese, but the sudden prominence of the opening ceremony still allows countries to send a clear message without sacrificing their high jumpers’ and gymnasts’ only shot at international glory.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/04/05/do0504.xml
Yet the Chinese state is, we know, not immune to embarrassment. The energy it puts into suppressing freedoms of reporting and association are prima facie evidence of the fact that it sees information as a threat.
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 21, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
There are no Jesse Owenes left in the world. In any cast the Cashlympics are a huge political zoo, and we need to bow out.
We can use the money we save to put a wall around the UN spy tower in NYC! We can send our boxing, wrestling and taekwondo teams there and let me train in the so called “diplomats” that come and go from there. I would say the bi-atholon team too, but some folks think it wrong to use weapons against enemies….:-), oh and there isn’t any snow in NYC in JULY.
With global warming we can get rid of the winter cashlypics too, though I feel they are more true to the original spirit of the game, and I like the female skaters.
GOT A NEW IDEA! LET’S LET JIMMY “the PEAnut Farmer who should have stayed on the farm” Carter go to China’r and represent what ever the hell it is that he represents. Maybe he can drink the water and breathe the air. Who knows, some good may come of it. Every day I wish he was never elected, such an embarrassement to the fine people of Georgia.
By Jason
April 21, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
First of all, what’s people’s typical reaction if they are embarrassed by someone? Will you thank that person for embarrassing you in public and take their advices on how you should behave? Probably not. On opposite, most people like you and I are likely to hold a grudge again that person and refuse to listen to anything from him. Same may be true for countries. If your goal is to promote positive changes in China, you won’t get it by embarrassment. If your goal is to make China (likely Chinese people too)an enemy of us, you probably will have a good chance achieving the goal this way.
By AJC is worthless
April 22, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
Really great job on the spam, AJC.
Now that you have read this, go back and finish your nap.
Lazy as* fools.
By Truth
April 22, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this
Gandalf, the Grey
I’m not sure what you are saying. You appear to want the Olympics to be broke and only certain people be allowed to compete.
By Hard Facts
April 22, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high; 2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon; 3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
1) Consumer confidence plummet; 2) the cost of regular gasoline soar to almost $4 a gallon; 3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase); 4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses); 5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars; 6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!
By chuck
April 22, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
Jason, the Chinese people want freedom even more than we want them to have it. Our policies toward China are screwed up. We put up with the same thing from them that we put Cuba under an embargo for. The fact that we get cheap crap from them is great, but it’s not enough to overlook the atrocities that they are committing against the people of both China and Tibet.
Even as we speak, political dissidents are disappearing from their homes and families so that China can put on a fake smiley face for the world this summer. When Beijing applied to host the olympics, they made promises to open their society and provide more freedom. They have reneged on those promises. They trust those of us in the west to focus on our ECONOMIC interests rather than human rights.
Everyone on this blog knows that I am a conservative in both economic issues and social issues. That said, in my family, we are standing with those in China who long for freedom from the oppressions of the Chinese communists. We stand for those Tibetan Monks who have been beaten and killed since the completion of the communist takeover in 1959. We are trying our best to not buy anything from China until such time as they change their ways. We will not watch ANY PART of the Olympics on TV, and we will support Christian missionaries who go into China at risk of life and limb.
While in the great scheme of things it may not be much, these are things that all of us can do to bring about change in China.
While I’m at it, HAS ANYBODY NOTICED THAT GAS PRICES HAVE GONE UP 30 CENTS IN THE PAST 3 WEEKS?!?!?!
Here’s an idea that I want to push forward. According to the Fortune 500 list Exxon-Mobil, Chevron-Texaco, and Conoco Phillips are the 3 largest oil companies in America. Here’s my idea:
These 3 companies being the largest in America, to a large degree control the price of gasoline in America. Rather than committing to not buy gasoline on a particular day or some other scheme like that, what would happen if we just totally refused to buy gas from the big 3 oil companies? What if, at the same time, we all reduced our gas consumption by say 10%?
Let’s face it. In the long run, the only real impact on gas prices will be lowering demand. From an economic standpoint that works pretty much every time. The only problem is that since we don’t control the SOURCE for our oil, OPEC can counter that lower demand by lowering production. By doing that they can always keep the price of oil artificially high if they choose to. We can lower prices NOW by reducing our consumption. In the long term, we have got to find an alternative fuel that we can produce completely here in America if we want to maintain our way of life.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
Hard Facts -
whew. boy. you sold me. you’re right … the Dems are responsible for oil costing more than $100/barrel … and for unemployment to rise to 5.1% … and for foreclosures to be at a 17-year high … and for consumer confidence and spending to be in a free-fall … and for the banks to be writing off BILLIONS of dollars … and for my morning rush hour train being cancelled … and for the rain we’ve had every weekend for the last 6 weeks … and for my yorkshire puddings sticking to the bottom of the pan when I made dinner last night …
please. do yourself a favor and learn the difference between cause and coincidence.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
usinuk, I don’t know about the WHOLE LIST, but I can tell you one thing that does lie solely at the door of the demoncrats…consumer confidence levels. I think Nixon called the nattering nabobs of negativism.
When was the last time you were watching the news and heard a demoncrat say ANYTHING GOOD about America. I’m not saying that America is perfect, but the dems spend 24/7 trashing America, the American people and the President. It isn’t our policies that have damaged consumer confidence or our image abroad. Nope. It isn’t our policies, it’s our POLITICIANS.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
chuck -
We can lower prices NOW by reducing our consumption. In the long term, we have got to find an alternative fuel that we can produce completely here in America if we want to maintain our way of life
truer words were never spoken
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
chuck -
consumer confidence levels. I think Nixon called the nattering nabobs of negativism
chuck - for the last 6 months, average pay has been below inflation … non-farm payrolls have been plummeting … unemployment rates are rising … the number of people taking part-time jobs to make ends meet is increasing … gas is more expensive … people are sick-n-tired of the endless war in Iraq that isn’t achieving anything …
The preliminary Univ. of Michigan index reading for March was the lowest since 1982 - consumer expectations for the next 6 months is the lowest since 1990 - the consumers polled expect inflation to reach almost 5% - and a growing number of people are saying that it’s harder to find a job.
THAT is why consumer confidence is circling the drain - people don’t care what the congress critters on either side of the aisle say - they’re too busy dealing with their own day-to-day.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
btw - you were close … it wasn’t Nixon but his Veep, Agnew, that coined the phrase “nattering nabobs of negativism”
By Truth
April 22, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
USinUK
I had an interesting conversation last night. I have been dating a woman from the Ukraine. Her views on American politics are interesting.
She doesn’t believe that either party really want the White House. She said that FOX News changed everything.
Let me see if I can explain. (She did it so well)
FOX News come on line in 1992 as a voice for conservatives. Their natural target was Clinton, who they consistently attacked for both his entire terms. But because of these attacks, in 1994, the Democrats turned over control of congress to the Republicans for the first time in 40 years.
Congress is the big prize. Big money just doesn’t support the White House. The big money goes to Congress and Congress has all the real power.
Then in 2000, Bush was elected and of course the rest of the media turned their guns on him. And sure enough, in 2006, that cost the Republicans Congress, the big prize.
We now have a huge industry that has figured out how to make billions by destroying US presidents. They don’t knock them out of power, but they discredit them so much that they force the loss of Congress.
You would like my sweetie. She is a bit conspiracy minded and she claims to be a communist and wouldn’t support any of the US offerings for president, even though she likes McCain because her father was a fighter pilot for the USSR. She just doesn’t think he would make a good president.
I am running again. Talk to you soon.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
The Political (an Economic) Origins of Consumer Confidence.
This is a study done by economists at Texas A&M and Penn State. They found a positive relationship between news coverage and consumer confidence. They said that when reports about the economy were positive, consumer confidence levels increased. When the reports were negative, the levels decreased. You can read the abstract of the study here:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1519924
By chuck
April 22, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
You are right USinUK. The words were actually written by William Safire for the speech by Agnew.
By lyrazel
April 22, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
With the US in so much debt to China there is no way we can pretend to boycott the Olympics. I agree the protests should have been 8 years ago but 8 years is how long it takes to get Richard Gere to get dressed and in make up for an appearance at a rally. One might ask if the screws in his designer sunglasses were made in China (yes), if his shoelaces were made in China (yes) and the origins of his ipod… All we are saying is give peas a chance
The Dali Lama supports the Olympics games but also said the protesters should be allowed to be heard.
I won’t be watching but I never did like parades or tv commentators.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
HMMMM.
doggiebag is dating a Latino from some foreign country
USinUK is MARRIED to a Brit
TRUTH is dating a Ukrainian
Interesting. That’s all I’m saying. I mean, it’s not a conspiracy or anything. Or is it? Hmmmmm.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Good morning Lyrazel. You dating any foreigners?
By KeepUpChuck
April 22, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Chuck, you need to keep up.
doggiebag is dating a Latino from some foreign country
she is history, she was a gold-digger(imagine that).
Think his latest was some Ukrainian too, which makes you think TRUTH is just another of his many (non)personalities.
By Multiple Nicks indeed
April 22, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this
Think his latest was some Ukrainian too, which makes you think TRUTH is just another of his many (non)personalities.
And this is from someone who presently calls itself KeepUpChuck, a person who changes their name for each and every post. But they are complaining about someone using multiple nicks.
By fyi
April 22, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
As a native Georgian I don’t see Jimmy Carter as an embarrassment. He has gone beyond politics and is doing what he can to help people all over the world. He is trying to bring people together and help us find peace instead of killing each other and spending billions of $ to do it like that embarrassment, George W. Bush.
By KeepUpChuck
April 22, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
when in Rome.
We had a good mentor.
By Heh heh...
April 22, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
Maybe they are both dating the same woman.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
You are exactly right. KeepUpChuck. 2 weeks ago he talked about that. Hmmmmmmm. Very interesting. Is he spinning so many lies that he cannot keep them straight?
By chuck
April 22, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
I will say this. IF he is both Truth and Dog, it would be EXTREMELY FUNNY. I would have to give him props for carrying it out so long.
By Truth
April 22, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
Chuck
Damn. You caught me. I am also El Perro the liar, and there is actually only one woman from the Ukraine in the entire city.
But the real fact is that I am also chuck, USinUK, Gandolf Mara, JokesON and GW Bush.
I am actually Carl Rove who is really Richard Nixon who is actually JFK.
OK. I said it. I admit I feel a lot better.
Now excuse me while I get back to Jackie O. The woman is never satisfied.
By chuck
April 22, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
Hey Truth, MAYBE dog is just borrowing from your life because he doesn’t have one of his own. You have to admit that it is quite a coincidence though.
By Truth
April 22, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
Chuck
What? The Ukraine thing?
Since I have been posting here, I have dated two different woman from the Ukraine. I seek them out. They are usually very attractive, smart and have a very European sexiness about them.
But more than anything, they seem to be women that don’t hate men. They love to be treated well and they have no problem with my old school manners toward women.
The last American woman I asked out gave me a ten minute lecture about opening the car door for her. She won’t have to ever worry about that again.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
chuck -
You can read the abstract of the study here
read the abstract … which begs the question … should the media then ignore major news stories like the credit meltdown/increases in foreclosures/increases in gas prices/decreases in the non-farm payrolls/etc???
while I understand what you’re saying - that negativity begets negativity - the fact is, you can have negative news on the TV, but if people have gas in their cars, cash in their pockets and are watching the value of their homes go up-up-up, consumer confidence will still be positive.
I charted consumer confidence and gas prices for my co-workers just for giggles a few months ago - there’s a direct and inverse correlation between the two. Gas prices skyrocket/consumer confidence plummets. It happens every. time.
and, yes. I am an economics nerd. I’m in a 12-step program for it.
By lyrazel
April 22, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
chuck, am I dating foreigners? No dear, but I am married to a mainer (about as foreign as they get in the usa and far more radical than vermonters because we want the rest of america to leave us alone).
Truth: Americans enjoy building up people to celebrity status then destroying these same folk (if they don’t do it first). Its a national pastime to praise and then berate. If you follow the money trail more lobbyists invest in congress than in presidents… notice how everyone gets completely bipartisan when congress earmarks a raise. Wink wink politics
Shaunti, remember your tirade about the maine school that set up a program to provide BC to teens? One person has used the service—> one! the horrors in your predictions for the decline of moral welfare of all maine teens has yet to come true dear.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
catching the 6:50 home … you guys have a good night!
By Truth
April 22, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
USinUK
The American media has been talking about the present recession during this entire election year. Of course a recession is when the US economy shows a downturn for two consecutive quarters and we haven’t had even one, yet. We are definitely leveling off, but we haven’t seen that downturn.
So I would say that when the media goes out of their way to redefine the term “recession”, that something is smelling up the place.
Let’s review. FOX is pro-Republican and they are sticking to the old definition. ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC and CNN all support democrats and they are redefining terms to match their obvious agenda.
By Heh heh...
April 22, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
Where are they? Where can I meet some hot Ukrainians in Atlanta?
By AmDater
April 22, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
Where can I meet some hot Ukrainians in Atlanta
and have to open her car door every time you go out?
Give me an AMERICAN woman.
By kimberly
April 22, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
Instead of boycotting the Olympic ceremonies, I think the President should boycott the rest of his presidency, STFU, pack up his things, go back to his ranch, stay there where he can’t do anymore harm. He spent most of his first year in office on vacation, why not his last? Lil’ Georgie’s daddy bought him the office and he got bored with it in a hurry. Let that be a lesson parents: the kids will respect and appreciate only what they actually had to work to obtain.
By USinUK
April 22, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
Truth -
The American media has been talking about the present recession during this entire election year
truthie - ya know I love you dearly … but come ON.
The media doesn’t make stuff up because they’re bored. why has the media been talking about a recession??? because economists have been saying that we’re in a recession.
specifically: Alan Greenspan. For the last year, the man has been saying that the US has a 50% chance of a recession … is heading towards a recession … is soaking in a recession …
the media only REPORTED what “the oracle” has been saying.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
Truthie and Chuck …
Had a little time to play around and do some research during lunch:
1) Alan Greenspan has been talking about a US recession since March of 2007. Should the media ignore him?? Since he made that statement last March, other economists have joined him, as well (most notably, Ben Bernanke in his last congressional testimony)
2) Retail/consumer spending (makes up 65% of US GDP) started to decline in March of 2006 and now hovers around 2% yoy growth. Should the media ignore that?
3) Home sales and housing starts have been on the decline since August 2005 - with new home sales at -30% yoy growth. Should the media ignore that?
4) Non-farm payrolls have been declining since August 2007 and unemployment has been climbing fairly steadily to roughly the same right just before 9/11. Should the media ignore that?
5) Average earnings growth is FAR below transportation and shelter costs. Should the media ignore that???
Look. I know the “liberal media bias” is the right’s favorite chew toy, but, believe it or not, they don’t make up stuff for fun. Economic statistics are released by the government on a monthly basis and ARE NEWS. They SHOULD be reported. If economists like Ben Bernanke (I just love him), Alan Greenspan, the National Association of Business Economists and many others start mumbling about a recession, then the media has a responsibility to report it.
Or do you think they should just sing a song of sixpence and report on Britney Spears/Lindsey Lohan/Brangelina/TomKat to keep the masses distracted? A little bread and circus, anyone???
By Truth
April 23, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The definition of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. We have yet to have a single one. Alan Greenspan can say anything he wants, but he can’t change the definition of a word. Doesn’t it bother you that Democrats do this all the time? They try to change definitions to match their rhetoric on a regular basiis. Democrats call this good politics. Republicans call it d-i-s-h-o-n-e-s-t-y.
We are having a hard time here and Obama’s promise to eliminate the income tax credit for anyone making as little as $100,000 is scaring most people to death. But no matter how many times people try to say it, we are not in a recession and will not be until we have (say it with me) two consecutive quarters of negative growth.
The question I have for you is: Doesn’t it bother you that the media is also redefining words so the Democrats will have another brick in their platform? If they are having to make up new definitions to specifically defined terms, doesn’t that show you a basic dishonest bias in the way we are presented with the news?
The media should tell us everything that is true about the economy. And if it were really as bad as you claim, they wouldn’t need to change definitions.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
USinUK
The housing market is depressed right now but the driving force in our economic downturn is the price of oil.
You may remember that before the elections of 2006 (when gas was $1.76 a gal) the democrats promised to regulate the oil industry so the country once again believed their lies and they took over Congress because of those lies.
But that’s not in the news much, is it? No body seems to want to talk about that. Of course they talk about the oil prices, but never about the broken promises oof the dims.
Don’t you think that considering a huge election coming up, that the media should remind everyone about all those politicians that told all those lies or “Or do you think they should just sing a song of sixpence and report on Britney Spears/Lindsey Lohan/Brangelina/TomKat to keep the masses distracted with talk of redefining definitions? A little bread and circus, anyone???”
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
Truth -
again, the MEDIA isn’t redefining anything. It’s economists out there postulating that we are on the brink of one. And, just so you know, even FOX business writers say that a recession isn’t necessarily 2 back-to-back quarters of negative growth:
http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2008/04/18/the-great-recession-debate/
A word of caution: Despite what you may hear, a recession is not necessarily defined by two back-to-back quarters of negative growth.
The National Bureau of Economic Research (NEBRA), the nonprofit organization of mostly academic economists that calls a recession, does not use that definition of two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Also, the late 2000 to 2001 recession did not have two back-to-back quarters of negative growth.
Like I said, I know the “librul media” is a favorite chew-toy, but when you have major economists talking about the US entering a recession, you can’t just be a cheerleader (gooooooooooooooo team!) and ignore the facts.
By Newzwyre
April 23, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
“But no matter how many times people try to say it, we are not in a recession and will not be until we have (say it with me) two consecutive quarters of negative growth.”
Technically* Truth is correct. But what he doesn’t say is as important as what he does. From “Investopedia” - “A significant decline in activity spread across the economy, lasting longer than a few months. It is visible in industrial production, employment, real income and wholesale-retail trade. The technical indicator of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country’s gross domestic product (GDP).”
As Paul Harvey used to say, “here’s the rest of the story” -
“When the nation is in the early part of a recession, nobody knows for sure if it is actually a recession or not. The economy might turn around the next day, which would mean the contraction was just a temporary decrease in activity along a mostly upward track. Economists don’t know if the economy is in recession until they can gather data over an extended period of time — typically six months or more.”
“There is no strict definition for recession. Different people consider different factors when making the assessment. Some economists and journalists define a recession as two consecutive quarters (three-month financial periods in the year) in which the gross domestic product (GDP) decreases. The GDP is the value of all the reported goods and services produced by people and institutions operating in a country. An overall decrease in the value of goods and services indicates that demand has decreased in most markets. If this is the case, it’s a good bet that companies have laid people off, so unemployment is up. Usually the stock market is also in bad shape when overall value is decreasing. In general, the GDP is a pretty good indicator of the overall state of the economy.”
“But the economists who officially designate a recession in the United States do not rely on the GDP alone. By general agreement, the official determination of recession is left to the Business Cycle Dating Committee at the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER). The NBER is not a government agency; it is a private organization that works to further understanding of the economy. This non-profit, non-partisan organization employs hundreds of economy experts (university professors, mostly) to analyze and report on the U.S. economy.”
“Among other things, NBER economists keep track of the nation’s business cycles — the courses of expansion and contraction in the economy. The Business Cycle Dating Committee decides whether or not the economy is in recession based on several monthly indicators. The GDP is not the most important factor to the NBER economists. They give more weight to personal income, the national employment rate, sales in manufacturing and trade, and industrial production.”
more at link: http://www.howstuffworks.com/recession8.htm
so, even though Truth is “technically” correct in defining the word ‘recession’, the powers-that-be don’t neccessarily need such a rigid framework to know when the economy is tanking.
*Doesn’t it bother you that the media is also redefining words so the Democrats will have another brick in their platform? If they are having to make up new definitions to specifically defined terms, doesn’t that show you a basic dishonest bias in the way we are presented with the news?
All those economists whose job it is to say whether we’re in a recession or not aren’t a bunch of damn liars who redefine words on a whim. They’re the folks who know what-n-da-hell they’re actually talking about. And if they say to the media or to the politicians “We’re in a recession.” what kind of arrogance would it take for a non-economist (like, say, a reporter, or political operative) to contradict them because the technical definition of the event hasn’t been met?
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Truth -
the democrats promised to regulate the oil industry so the country once again believed their lies and they took over Congress because of those lies
close, but not quite correct. Democrats promised to roll back tax breaks for oil companies. Which the House did in their First 100 Hour push: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6277797.stm
however, senate republicans filibustered and defeated the measure, despite the fact that the committee passed it. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11254622
The housing market is depressed right now but the driving force in our economic downturn is the price of oil.
the price of oil is salt in the wound, but it is one of 3 major moving parts here: 1) the credit crisis 2) the housing market 3) inflation (gas AND food)
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
NEWZY!!! where ya been, my friend???
and thanks for the howstuffworks!!! cool link!
By Truth
April 23, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
USinUK and Newzwyre
There is no doubt that we are approaching an economic downturn, especially in the real estate market. And the oil prices are knocking the wind out of us every time we have s small up-turn.
But we are not there yet in spite of the politicos insisting that we are.
I haven’t seen economists claiming we are already in a recession, however I have seen CNN insist that we are. Of course this is the same network whose latest attempt is called “A Broken Government”, which, in spite of the fact that the Republicans haven’t controlled the government for almost two years, almost completely ignores the broken promises and lack of almost any offerings of the dims.
This is the network that considers a fair and balanced debate as being between two liberals and a progressive. This is the network that produced a series on religion that even Muslims have said were incredibly biased toward Christians.
There is a very active and strong biased media. Like the revelation that the Clintons are really the slime that Republicans have claimed, Democrats are also seeing how quickly ABC has turned on Obama. ABC broke the Rev. Wright story, not FOX as many have claimed, and ABC crucified Obama in last week’s debates. The mainstream media doesn’t hesitate to promote their own agenda.
The media has an agenda and making the economy much worse than it is plays into that agenda.
By chuck
April 23, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
UsinUK, you said:
The National Bureau of Economic Research (NEBRA), the nonprofit organization of mostly academic economists that calls a recession, does not use that definition of two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Also, the late 2000 to 2001 recession did not have two back-to-back quarters of negative growth.
Here is the way that they DO DEFINE A RECESSION.
A recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales. A recession begins just after the economy reaches a peak of activity and ends as the economy reaches its trough. Between trough and peak, the economy is in an expansion. Expansion is the normal state of the economy; most recessions are brief and they have been rare in recent decades.
The Clinton “Recession” in 2000 didn’t last very long at all and had very little impact on our way of life. Can we not assume that will be the case this time as well? Also, the Bush Tax Cuts brought us almost unparallelled economic growth. Is it possible that the recent increases in taxes and fees AND the refusal to make the tax cuts permanent may have started us down this road? Isn’t it also possible that the constant slamming of the economy NOT BY GREENSPAN, BUT BY DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS WHO USE IT LIKE A MANTRA EVERY TIME THEY GET IN FRONT OF A CAMERA, may have gotten us to this point as well?
Nobody wants a recession (except the democrats who want to use it as an election issue) so why are we not doing the things that we KNOW will stimulate the economy like getting rid of the capital gains tax and lowering the marginal rates?
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
truth -
The media has an agenda and making the economy much worse than it is plays into that agenda.
yes, because a broken economy really benefits GE, Disney and Westinghouse (NBC, ABC and CBS corporate owners, respectively).
not to mention their … ahem … ADVERTISERS. without whom they will have no budget. if anything, it behooves the networks to be economy “fluffers”, if you will, to make sure they’ll get their ad revenues so that their corporate owners will hit their forecasts and Wall St. will be happy.
so, please, truth. think about what you’re saying. cuz it really doesn’t hold water.
By chuck
April 23, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
Oh USinUK, BTW, HAS NBER DECLARED THAT WE ARE IN A RECESSION? I was just wondering since I saw no such announcement on their website.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Democrats promised to roll back tax breaks for oil companies.
No. You are simply matching their deeds with imagined promises.
Promise: “Democrats have a plan to lower gas prices…join Democrats who are working to lower gas prices now.” – Then-Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Press Release, April 19, 2006
I found a list of broken energy promises made by the dims. Want to see many, many more?
They promised to regulate the oil companies. These promises spurred the launch of an oil company media campaign which was basically a threat to the American consumer that any regulation would result in the long lines at the gas pumps “like we had in the 70s” is what the radio and TV spots claimed.
As I have said a hundred times: the people who control Congress get the big lobby money. The oil companies and the insurance companies are the largest lobby force in Washington. And now that the dims are in charge all they could muster was a meaningless tax defer toward the most profitable industry in the world. Big deal.
This would explain why only 14% of Americans have any confidence in the Democratic Congress. Confidence hasn’t been this bad since 1991 to 1994 when the public confidence was at 18%. You may remember who was in charge of Congress then.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
USinUk
yes, because a broken economy really benefits GE, Disney and Westinghouse (NBC, ABC and CBS corporate owners, respectively).
No, but the perception of a broken economy would certainly promote their obvious and acclaimed media bias.
By your logic, all the major networks should be pro-big business which should be pro-Republican, but of course that would mean that anyone coming down on Bush would be fired. Norman Lear would have been fired for admitting that all his shows had a definite pro-liberal message (as he claimed). Johnny Carson would have never been able to rail against Dan Quale. Jon Scott would never be able to do the anti-Republican show that he weekly produces. SNL would be pro-Republican. (LOL!!!) Do I need to go on, and on, and on?
By chuck
April 23, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
I’m not a “media expert”, but it seems to me that companies who are not able to sell enough of their products would advertise MORE and not less.
By chuck
April 23, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
NEWZY, of course the Republicans defeated that measure. It would have added to the price of gasoline, which had already started up at the time. You know that corporations don’t absorb taxes by lowering profits. They pass those costs off to the consumer.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
chuck -
Okay, then, by that definition, we are in a recession. Thanks for that.
I don’t know if I would agree with you that the Clinton Recession of 2001 “had very little impact” - I know about a dozen people who were laid off around that time (of which I was one). Many of whom were laid off for at least 6 months or longer - which is why there was the federal extension of unemployment benefits.
Isn’t it also possible that the constant slamming of the economy NOT BY GREENSPAN, BUT BY DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS WHO USE IT LIKE A MANTRA EVERY TIME THEY GET IN FRONT OF A CAMERA, may have gotten us to this point as well?
and, speaking of mantras … “it’s all the democrats’ fault” is a little tired and, frankly, doesn’t hold water. Especially not in this case. The facts - the economic statistics - just don’t bear them out. The credit crisis (selling ABS and MBS to mitigate risk) was brewing looooong before the Dems took office. The shift to a service sector (and thus lower-wage) economy was brewing looooong before the Dems took office. The outsourcing of jobs to India and China (and thus suppressing wages here at home) was taking place loooooong before the Dems took office. The housing downturn. The oil crisis. The food crisis. Sorry, but you can’t pin it on the dems. Or the “librul media”.
but I’m sure you’ll keep trying.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
chuck -
I’m not a “media expert”, but it seems to me that companies who are not able to sell enough of their products would advertise MORE and not less.
the first thing to get cut in a downturn is the PR/advertising/marketing budget. just so you know.
By Newzwyre
April 23, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
Hi USinUK. Sorry I haven’t been around. I’ve been chained to the desk. Things have been crazy wild around here because the deadline for our project is Monday. My part is finished now so all I’ve got to do is hang around just in case someone falls behind. Yay!
You’re welcome for the link. That website is a great starting point for research on almost any subject you can think of. Hey, I saw you guys were talking about health care, childhood obesity, etc the other day and brought to mind a paper Cass Sunstein did a while ago about “libertarian paternalism”. It’s a social philosophy that combines the freedom to make either good or bad choices with certain “manipulative” marketing methods that encourages one to make the “right” choice.
For example, she had an anecdote about a school lunch administrator using product placement strategies to influence the choices her students made in the cafeteria. The same methods that supermarkets use to plan their aisle layout, this lady used to design the cafeteria line. They didn’t remove the junk food or anything, just changed where the products were placed in the lunchline and it made quite a difference in what kinds of foods the kids chose for lunch.
I’ve done a lot of research over the years and it seems like no matter how smart or ambitious a person is, if all things seem equal, a human being tends to the path of least resistance. “Libertarian paternalism” suggests that if society wants people to make certain choices without actually FORCING that choice onto them, then we should make that choice the “easiest” choice. You know, like the “opt-in/opt-out” issue. Data shows us that companies who automatically sign their employees into a 401K program have a higher participation rate than businesses that require their people to “opt-in”. For most people, it’s a “pain in the a—” issue. They don’t opt-out of the 401K because it’d be a PITA. They don’t change their annoying long-distance service because it’s a PITA. etc. etc.
Chuck mentioned choice in regard to abortions. How many parents default to the school system because it’s embarrassing for them to talk to their kid about sex and it’d be a PITA? How many kids never ask about preventing pregnancy because they are embarrassed? If we as society decided to require a 5-year contraceptive implant for every 6th grade girl (with the right of refusal like our current desease innoculation programs) how many abortions could we prevent? The default being to opt the girl INTO contraception instead of her opting OUT of pregnancy. The choice still remains, but the “status quo” is now geared toward prevention instead of consequence.
(Disclaimer: these are *ideas and ONLY ideas. I am not suggesting forced sterilization or anything like that. It’s just an illustration.*)
By Only Troof is Right
April 23, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Bill Maher and Dan Rather were both fired from major networks for getting a little too truthful, Sparky. Of course, you’ll spin that the way you want to, probably ranting and raving for an hour or more, because only you are right and everyone else is wrong. Thank you in advance for the articulate wisdom you’re about to spew.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
USinUK
NAFTA was passed in 1993. Who was president in 1993? Who was in control of the House and the Senate in 1993?
I have sat and seen everything from the conflict with Iraq to Hurricane Katrina blamed on Bush. But you have a problem with blaming an economic downturn on the people that control Congress.
You are right in that many problems existed before the dims took over, but THEY DIDN’T EVEN TRY TO KEEP THEIR PROMISES. They did not regulate the oil industry and they certainly didn’t lower gas prices. They haven’t given us any economic relief and things are getting worse and worse while congress is getting more money from lobbiest than they have ever gotten.
Yes, I blame the people who promised to fix it and have done nothing other than launch 100 investigations in 100 days which have wasted millions of dollars and hasn’t resulted in a single indictment, hell even a single sustainable accusation.
They lied to us all, sort of like what Clinton and Obama are doing now.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
Truth -
But you have a problem with blaming an economic downturn on the people that control Congress.
yes I do - and you know why??? BECAUSE NEITHER CONGRESS NOR THE WHITE HOUSE HAVE “EFF-ALL” TO DO WITH THE ECONOMY. That’s why. The Fed has a far more hands-on effect than anything the Congress or WH do, but even then it’s a delayed effect. Yeah, Congress can pass bills and the WH can sign them … they can send you a check for $1,200 “relief”, but for a lasting effect on the economy, only businesses and banks can make a difference. Most “stimulus” packages don’t really make a lasting difference.
What pulled us out of the Bush Senior Recession? the internet economy. Job creation - that’s what makes the economic world go round - and neither Congress nor the WH can really make a difference there.
As for NAFTA, you forget - it’s not just manufacturing jobs that are fleeing the country. Help desks in India and IT programming in the Ukraine - they had nothing whatsoever to do with NAFTA.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Newzwyre
If we as society decided to require a 5-year contraceptive implant for every 6th grade girl (with the right of refusal like our current desease innoculation programs) how many abortions could we prevent?
How about if we revert to a campaign teaching the same morality that has worked as a deterrent for unwanted pregnancies for 200,000 years? It doesn’t even need to be a religous thing, just a detailed explanation of why children who have sex have a very good chance of screwing up their lives?
How about if we take the huge un-PC step in saying that children who have children are simply wrong, in so many ways.
It has worked pretty well since man walked upright, even though morality is so “uncool”.
Total acceptance of bad behavior has caused 99% of today’s social problems, and yet we keep teaching that acceptance.
But I’m just an old fashioned, close minded moralist. Maybe all these unwanted children and 30,000,000 abotions is actually the way to go.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Only Troof is Right
Calm down and play nice. K?
This isn’t personal and you obviously don’t have the emotional control to be here, but since you are, you might want to address what I say instead of your blathering hate for anyone who disagrees with you.
Can you do that for us all? Huh? Can you? It would make you look nice and not… well… what you really are.
By chuck
April 23, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
What pulled us out of the Bush Senior Recession? the internet economy. Job creation - that’s what makes the economic world go round - and neither Congress nor the WH can really make a difference there.
Excuse me? While I agree that what the fed does has a great impact on the economy, what THEY do is REACTIVE. They see inflation edging upu so they raise interest rates. Lack of growth? Stimulate the economy by lowering rates. The problem is that right now we have both a slowing economy AND inflation and there is very little that the fed can do at this point to get us out of it. I think that you are being a little bit disingenuous when you say that the WH and congress can not “really make a difference”. I think you are also underplaying the role of tax cuts, ESPECIALLY corporate tax cuts, in the creation of jobs.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
USinUK
Again, we agree to disagree. I need to run. This damned recession is working my butt off.
Saw something interesting yesterday: A Mary-Mac catering van. It made me think of you.
I had no idea they catered.
I also bought “American Gangster”. Certainly not one of those great movies we often discuss, but not a bad offering.
It is heaven in Atlanta right now. Upper 70s, low humidity, just about perfect.
Have a good day tomorrow. I am working in Buckhead all day.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
A Mary-Mac catering van. It made me think of you.
do you think they’ll deliver to London???
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
chuck -
I think we’re both right on the Fed - they are “reactive” but they also see where the economy is heading and try to head inflation off at the pass. But even the raising/lowering of rates makes a much bigger impact on the economy than any tax legislation - it’s far more immediate and “cash in hand” (literally).
As for tax cuts, you and I REALLY aren’t going to agree on that one. Corporations pay the least amount in taxes that they have ever paid - AND, in the last few years, have made record-breaking profits (especially oil companies). However, this has NOT lead to record-breaking job creation in the US nor has it lead to wages keeping up with inflation. In fact, while the economy was chugging along with the strongest growth after the recession, average earnings were just at or below inflation from January of 2004 until August of 2006 (jsut about the time the economy started heading south).
Just so you know, unemployment peaked at just over 6% in April of 2003 and slooooowly fell to a little under 5% during that time. So, no. no record job-creation going on there.
By Question Everything
April 23, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
If there is record job creation going on in America, why are mortgage foreclosures at an all time high? You’d think people would pay to stay in their own homes if they could. Maybe there are record numbers of crappy, low paying jobs being created while manufacturing and technical support jobs are being shipped overseas by corporations who get big tax cuts, eh?
What if corporations that receive tax cuts to stimulate job creation were required to actually create new jobs or give the money back? That won’t happen. The CEO’s whose salaries are negotiated outside the realm of performance and job creation own their legislatures, locks, stocks, and gun barrels. The government is theirs. Party on the yacht this Saturday. (Which one? The BIG one!) Open bar. Bring your goomahs!
By Newzwyre
April 23, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
How about if we revert to a campaign teaching the same morality that has worked as a deterrent for unwanted pregnancies for 200,000 years?
You’re kidding, right? A deterrant to “unwanted pregnancies”? Are you trying to say that historically, b-st-rdy was virtually unknown?! HA!! When you married your daughter off at the ripe old age of 14 or thereabouts, what “deterrant” do you think it was for the priests to say “don’t have sex until you’re married”? Do you think it was morality that kept that 14-year-old girl from having sex? Females were property and as such were often closely watched until they were “given” to whomever the male head-of-house decided to marry them to. And historically, her husband would have been allowed to beat or breed her as often as he liked, sell her services as he liked, or GIVE her body to anyone he chose, so what is this talk of “wanted” and “unwanted” children?
If you look at history, “morality” as you seem to define it had very little influence for most of history. Midsummer festivals always seemed to result in unintended pregnancies and many peoples thought such pregnancies and children to be especially blessed because they were thought to have been conceived while the “god and goddess” walked the earth. Prostitution was condoned by the church, taxed by the state, and regulated by law. Some prostitutes, the high-class courtesans, were even celebrated and respected. Wealthy men were understood and expected to have mistresses. Raping the women of a conquered enemy was a “spoil of war”. Camp followers were considered part of any army and a necessary part at that…so where’s this “moral deterrant” you cite?
People have been having sex since there were people. Because life expectancy was only a few decades, girls were expected to breed early and breed often even though childbirth was one of the leading causes of death for women. If a child wasn’t wanted or there was a question of paternity, it could be left exposed to the elements or otherwise disposed of, no questions asked. Most often it was an issue of economics, paternity/succession, or expedience that decided that issue, NOT morality.
To assert, as you seem to be doing, that in the worlds entire 200,000 year history (?), all children were wanted and nobody got pregnant without wanting a child until our modern times became so “immoral” — well, sorry to tell you, that’s just ignorant.
By Truth
April 23, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Newzwyre
In one paragraph you talk about everyone having sex at an early age and in the next you talk about babies being left to die because of parental questions. Yes people got married at age 14 but they died at age 35-40. Monogamy has been taught by many, many more cultures than polygamy and/or open sexual behavior. And the reason why is made very clear by taking a tour of the CDC websight.
You don’t need to go back to ancient history to see morality playing a part in preventing unwanted pregnancy. My sister grew up in the 1950s and she didn’t have sex until she was married, like most of her friends. They were not in the minority at school either. Not a lot of Herpes, A.I.D.S. or abortions back then.
My generation (8 years) was a bit different because we were being influenced by a quickly changing media. The Andy Griffith Show was replaced with Laugh In and All In The Family. It was great entertainment, but not so good in helping our society.
Surely you have to see the logarithmic incrementalism of teen problems since then.
I’m not preaching or shaking my finger. I was 16 in 1968 and spent my early years as a rock musician traveling on the road. But even then, the girls that “hung with the band” were not the most admired girls in the community. Now, a girl that is 16 and pregnant with her second or third child is not really considered that unusual. There is no way you can tell me that is a good thing.
So if it was not the change in the teachings of morality and what is right and what is wrong by a quickly changing media, what do you think made the difference between 1955 and 2008? (Or 1985, for that matter)
By Truth
April 23, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
all children were wanted and nobody got pregnant without wanting a child until our modern times became so “immoral” — well, sorry to tell you, that’s just ignorant.
Why do you have to do this? I was commenting on the fact that morality was taught and because of that unwanted children, STDs and other problems were less common.
And somehow you twist that into saying that it is ignorant to say that all children were wanted and nobody got pregnant without wanting a child until our modern times.
Did you really need to do that to make your point?
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
I nearly forgot … HAPPY ST. GEORGE’S DAY!!!
(now, go out and have some bangers and mash with a good pint of bitter!!)
By chuck
April 23, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
USinUK,
and a happy Ulusal Egemenlik ve Cocuk Bayrami (Turkish Independence Day) To you.
By Newzwyre
April 23, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Monogamy has been taught by many, many more cultures than polygamy and/or open sexual behavior.
I’m sorry but it’s irrelevant whether a culture taught monogamy, it’s whether a culture practiced monogamy. Few, very few, if any at all, actually practiced it as you mean it. Men have always been excused for extra-marital and pre-marital sex and women have always been blamed and shamed for it. THAT isn’t monogamy, that’s misogyny.
Why do you think that the groupie girls who hung with your band weren’t respect but you boys were? Why do you think that every time the topic of sex comes up it’s always in the context of how GIRLS need to be kept from ruining their lives? Why are the BOYS seldom criticized and shamed for having sex? Because “monogamy” is great as an ideal but doesn’t work too well in a free society.
I was commenting on the fact that morality was taught and because of that unwanted children, STDs and other problems were less common.
and my entire post was a refutation of that. You confuse cause and effect. It isn’t a FACT that the effect of teaching morality was fewer unwanted children and STDs. There were many reasons BESIDES “morality” to explain these issues, though I am skeptical that the percentages by population were all that different in the past. The difference is that people are willing to talk about it now, and they have the bad taste not to hide in shame.
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
chuck -
and a happy Ulusal Egemenlik ve Cocuk Bayrami (Turkish Independence Day) To you
please tell me that they celebrate their national day by eating their weight in baklava!!!
By Truth
April 23, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Newzwyre
We have segments of our population where 60-80% of babies are born out of wedlock. That kind of statistics aren’t the kind of thing that was once just not talked about.
I notice that you didn’t offer a reason as to why our society is in such a tail spin. Maybe you think that it isn’t. The statistics say differently.
You are right in that girls have always been blamed although I’m, not sure we were looked on any higher than the promiscuous girls that we were dating.
First, I didn’t invent that. wasn’t my idea.
And secondly, like it or not, it worked much better than what we have today. “No means no” is not a new concept. but it used to actually be used much earlier in the encounter. Not such a good thing for us guys.
So let’s review our points:
I am saying that when morality stopped being taught in schools and the general education of children and much less moralistic entertainment appeared: the effect of that was a less moral society, resulting in less moral behavior and thus many more child pregnancies, STDs etc.
And you were saying that this isn’t true, that things haven’t really changed that much and apparently the teachings of morals in the past wss just a waste of time and most of society ignored the teachings anyway.
I don’t want to put words in our mouth, but is this where we stand?
By USinUK
April 23, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
Newzy -
I’m sorry but it’s irrelevant whether a culture taught monogamy, it’s whether a culture practiced monogamy. Few, very few, if any at all, actually practiced it as you mean it. Men have always been excused for extra-marital and pre-marital sex and women have always been blamed and shamed for it. THAT isn’t monogamy, that’s misogyny.
WOW!!! (raucous applause) well said, my friend!!
truth, I’m with newzy on this one. I’m sorry but the whole “no one had sex before marriage until we started teaching sex ed” is such a myth that is does a disservice to our kids.
the fact is that people have ALWAYS had sex before and outside of marriage.
the difference is that people used to have shot-gun weddings when they were found out. or they “went to visit their aunt in Topeka” for a few months. or they abandoned the baby on the church door - then, the child went off to live at an orphanage.
if the woman had money, she would visit a discrete doctor who would “take care of the problem” and not report it. if the woman didn’t have money, she’d go to a back-alley butcher or use a coat hanger or knitting needle to self-abort.
as for the STD issue - my god!! even in the Victorian era, syphillis and “the pox” was rampant! and, in the 1950s, it was “the clap”.
truth, we would ALL like to see our kids behave with more common sense - and we would ALL like to see kids wait until they’re grown up enough to have sex. however, it has NEVER been that way, so it is unrealistic to expect it of them.
the best thing we can do is to educate them thoroughly and make sure they have access to effective birth control.
By lozen
April 23, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
How about if we revert to a campaign teaching the same morality that has worked as a deterrent for unwanted pregnancies for 200,000 years? Oh for pete’s sake! There have always, always been teenagers getting pregnant! They used to be married off (often to 30 year old men, the pervs) before the sap rose. No moral campaign has ever worked to keep teenagers from having sex. You conveniently ignore the fact that just as many abortions were performed illegally in the years before Roe v Wade and the fact that thousands of women died from illegal abortions and that does not happen now.
How about if we take the huge un-PC step in saying that children who have children are simply wrong, in so many ways. It has worked pretty well since man walked upright, even though morality is so “uncool”.
It has not worked. Many cultures (without that puritan heritage) never expected it to work and there was a net of some type for babies born out of “sacred” (big eye roll) wedlock! Like Cherokee and other native american cultures where the brother of the mother was responsible for her children! Husbands come and husbands go; brothers are always brothers. Pretty damn smart!
Total acceptance of bad behavior has caused 99% of today’s social problems, and yet we keep teaching that acceptance.
Boy, do you have your causes and effects twisted!
But I’m just an old fashioned, close minded moralist.
True. But the bigger problem is your ignorant about so many things which you would never admit You don’t seem to know anything about economics, the media, history, sociology or other cultures. You base your assumptions totally on ultra conservative politics and puritanical religion based american morality. And then you can just blame everything on the “dims” and see it the way you want to believe it is, right?
By lozen
April 23, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
How can these spammers get words like p-enis and c-um, etc. through the censors when we can’t?
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
so when this Carole person says “very young” … do you think she means Neil Young?? I don’t think I’d like to see those pics. Especially if Crosby, Stills and Nash are involved.
or maybe she means Robert Young from Father Knows Best.
or maybe it’s a misspelling and she means philosopher Carl Jung.
I suppose she could be referring to The Young Ones (very funny show from the 80s)
I’m SURE she’s not referring to anything illegal, though. (fercryingoutloud, AJC, get off your duffs and do something about all this spam!!!)
By Truth
April 24, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
Everybody
Apparently, your only argument can be made if you somehow convince yourself that I have ever said a single word disputing the fact that there were many, many pregnancies, STDs and abortions at any time in history. Of course there were.
And again, I am not playing Chuck and shaking my finger. I played in a band, guys. During the 70’s. Sex drugs and rock n Roll. Remember? Of all of us, I would be pretty sure that I am the one that can’t lecture anyone.
But I am saying that we, as a society that is suppposed to be in control of the innocence of our children is really in the crapper. Statistics show that many, many more young women are pregnant and many more teens are infected with STDs than ever before.
The thing that concerns me is that I have asked a couple of times for other opinions about why you thought this sharp increase in teen and out-of-wedlock pregnancies exists. But first I was accused of blaming it on the woman. What? Believe it or not, I have actually done what it takes to make a woman pregnant. Now I don’t know about other guys, but I am an active participant in that process. It’s something I enjoy and damn it, I like to participate.
So nobody is blaming anyone.
But the really interesting thing is how you guys immediately burst into anger and misinterpreting what I said and Luzon basically losing her sh*t at the mere mention of a discussion about a very obvious societal problem. And the crazy thing is: It’s a problem that, like it or not, MUCH more often effects a young girl who simply has no one else to help her after the boyfriend has split. It affects families and often really ruins a girl’s life.
The word morality is the culprit. How did that word become evil? It is just saying that people should respect each other and teach each other to be smart and not do stupid things that screw up one’s life. I’m not using the word to blame anyone. I can’t blame anyone or shake my finger at anyone because I didn’t think twice.
But what I am saying is that the generations before me, at least the 40s and 50s simply had much fewer problems then we have now. Why can’t we discuss why that is? And yes, they had SOME problems, but apparently, not nearly as many.
And BTW, Luzon, there are between 1 million and 1.4 million abortions legally performed in the US each year. You can’t believe that there were that many illegal abortions performed. There would have been tens of thousands of deaths from complications.
I understand abortions are here to stay. But Jesus Christ, can’t we just try to do something to cut back? 1.4 million a year? Approaching 36,000,000 since Roe V. Wade. That’s now 12% of our population and climbing. Can’t we even discuss an alternative to killing them?
What if there really is such thing as Karma?
By Newzwyre
April 24, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
I am saying that when morality stopped being taught in schools and the general education of children and much less moralistic entertainment appeared: the effect of that was a less moral society, resulting in less moral behavior and thus many more child pregnancies, STDs etc.
And you were saying that this isn’t true, that things haven’t really changed that much and apparently the teachings of morals in the past wss just a waste of time and most of society ignored the teachings anyway.
No, what you said was “the fact that morality was taught and because of that unwanted children, STDs and other problems were less common.” You stated as a fact that there were fewer teen pregnancies and STD’s only because morality was being taught. And yes, I did say I thought that this wasn’t true. It was my contention that other social changes had more impact than the teaching of morality, though I don’t doubt that it did have some impact.
What I didn’t say was that teaching morals was a waste of time. All I said is that I didn’t think that it would be the panacea that you describe.
Perhaps you are correct in saying that life really DID used to be like “Andy Griffith” crossed with “Leave it to Beaver” crossed with “Grease” but time passes and society changes; what worked then would almost certainly not work now. Today’s youth have never NOT had sex shoved in their faces through advertising and entertainment. They’ve never been in a world without Madonna, Chippendales, GirlsGoneWild, or Playboy. They’ve never NOT had television and the internet. They can’t “un-know” the sophistication that society now demands of them.
Should parents teach their morality to their children? Yes, of course. Unfortunately not enough of them do, thus the problems you discussed. But the school should not be teaching it instead. Why? Because unlike the science/health based reasons for discouraging underage sex, morality is culturally subjective. If I want my child to understand that for an adult, sex can be a beautiful expression of love, well— I certainly don’t want her to be told by the school that those who have sex will become desease-ridden and contemptable. But — those parents whose morals say that sex is ONLY acceptable between a married man and woman might not have any arguement with making it look shameful.
But that is all beside the point. The original post was to illustrate some possible uses of marketing strategies and libertarian paternalism to encourage socially acceptable behavior while NOT removing the freedom to make choices, even bad ones. But you kind of took the bit in your teeth and dragged us off into the rough.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
Truth -
I understand abortions are here to stay. But Jesus Christ, can’t we just try to do something to cut back?
Yes, we can. We can give our kids good, accurate sex education - NOT abstinence only mis-education. Start it young with age-appropriate information and continue it from elementary through high school - NOT just a one-time class that kids get in middle school.
We can make sure that our kids have access to good, effective birth control. Condoms. The pill. IUDs. And, while parental approval would be fantastic, they should be able to get these things without, if they aren’t comfortable talking to their parents about it.
Lastly, I understand what you’re saying about morality - and, while I don’t believe in waiting until marriage, I do believe in waiting until you can at least DRIVE, fercryingoutloud. The more we can do to get kids to delay until they’re out of school, the better.
As far as out-of-wedlock births, if you need to stop them, you need to provide the basics mentioned above. But, you also need to look at why young women are getting pregnant and why young men look at the number of kids they’ve sired as bragging rights. Is it because they don’t see a future for themselves? Is it for the benefits? (a big problem here) Is it because they have so little love in their life, they want a child who will love them??
Once you understand those reasons, THEN you can really begin to reduce out-of-wedlock teen births.
By Josh Rosen
April 24, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
China is the exact same repressive country that they were when they were awarded the Olympics several years ago. Why do we wring our hands about it NOW and claim that something ought to be done? Wasn’t the correct time to protest and raise hell about it when the IOC was actually considering giving the Olympic games to Chine in the first place?
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
I understand abortions are here to stay. But Jesus Christ, can’t we just try to do something to cut back? 1.4 million a year? Approaching 36,000,000 since Roe V. Wade. That’s now 12% of our population and climbing. Can’t we even discuss an alternative to killing them?
We have: A comprehensive sex ed that includes all types of contraceptive and abstinence coupled by real involvement by the parents in the child’s rearing taught by example; not scare tactics or one sided teaching based purely on a single groups definition of morality (that is what people are reacting to btw).
What if there really is such thing as Karma?
Seeing as there were the same percentage of illegal abortions before roe vs wade as there were after AND most likely the same percentage of newborns discarded into rivers and ditches, your question would effect more of the people of the olden days you refer to than modern.
By Truth
April 24, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
USinUk
I do believe in waiting until you can at least DRIVE, fercryingoutloud.
That’s all I was trying to say before everyone went ape sh*t and lozen launched into yet another string of insults, like she always does. And yet I am supposed to be the insulting jerk on the blog.
I don’t get it, USinUK. She and a few other are the most insulting , rude people I have even encountered on a political blog, but no one ever says a word to her or the other rude as*holes that lurk here.
Because they agree with the common political slant of this blog they think they have the right to treat anyone how ever they want, but any opposing views better be presented with the diplomacy of Henry Kessenger.
She is stupid and rude, but no one says a damn word to her about her behavior.
By Truth
April 24, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
JokesON
Seeing as there were the same percentage of illegal abortions before roe vs wade as there were after AND most likely the same percentage of newborns discarded into rivers and ditches, your question would effect more of the people of the olden days you refer to than modern.
If you can show me that statistic, do so. I don’t think you can because no one knows how many illegal abortions were performed, but do you really think that 1.4 million were performed? That would mean tens of thousands of deaths a year, which is also not substantiated.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
truth -
I can’t speak about anyone else’s behavior … and, frankly, unless someone is being rude to me, I try to stay out of the playground fights (I’ve poked my nose in in the past - but, now, I just try to stay out of it).
but, yes, you’re right - there are a number of rude people on the blog. and we all have a choice - we can either remain above it and rely on rhetoric and a good, thoughtful argument … or we can fling poo.
but, I went back and reread your original posting on the issue - and, I gotta say, I didn’t read it as “wait until they can drive”:
How about if we revert to a campaign teaching the same morality that has worked as a deterrent for unwanted pregnancies for 200,000 years? It doesn’t even need to be a religous thing, just a detailed explanation of why children who have sex have a very good chance of screwing up their lives?
How about if we take the huge un-PC step in saying that children who have children are simply wrong, in so many ways.
It has worked pretty well since man walked upright, even though morality is so “uncool”.
Total acceptance of bad behavior has caused 99% of today’s social problems, and yet we keep teaching that acceptance.
In reverse order - 1) I don’t think that anyone is completely accepting and slap-happy about 13-year-olds having kids.
2) Newzy’s and my point is that “teaching morality” hasn’t worked well - there have always been kids having kids. It’s just that, before now, we had shotgun weddings, young girls “visiting their aunts” for a few months, babies being abandoned on the church steps. Teen pregnancies have ALWAYS been a fact of life.
3) Teaching “morality” or abstinence doesn’t really educate anyone about how to keep from getting pregnant. “Just say no” just isn’t working. Case in point, the teen pregnancy rate is back on the rise after 14 years of declines, as of data released a few months ago. It’s no coinkidink that the increase corresponds with the increase in “abstinence-only” sex ed.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
truth -
he said percentage … not number.
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
If you can show me that statistic, do so.
Can someone provide this, I do not have the time to find it (again) to post.
1.4 million a year?
Percentage and ratio are quite different from absolute numbers.
And back to: If you can show me that statistic, do so.
Seeing as it is your assertion that the times are so much different, it is your burden to prove that the “olden ways” were more effective and humane.
Just like the very first time you posted and caught heck from posters regarding teaching morality (that was based on christain beliefs), you do not see the centrist basis for your whole premise.
By Stat Lover
April 24, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
Where’d the “1.4 million” come from? Who counts? Who reports? Who keeps the records? How do we know the number is accurate and not just a guesstimate? I don’t remember the census taker asking me if I ever paid for one. Maybe some doctors keep this sort of thing private. Maybe somebody likes to inflame the anti-civil-rights crowd by posting exaggerated numbers on a website and passing them off as facts while demanding your outrage. Maybe it’s none of our g—d—- business what another American citizen chooses to do with his or her own body. If it’s your seed, maybe you do have the right to pound on the screen door and plead for a few minutes to state your piece. But if it’s not your seed, maybe you should zip it. If other people’s well-being is so important to you, maybe you should volunteer as a coach or big brother in an underprivileged community where there are too few good role models, or perhaps as a tutor in a literacy program. Maybe lots of things.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
Jokesy - here’s what I found:
From Reason Online (http://www.reason.com/news/show/35013.html)
First, the number of abortions is down since the early 1990s. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 1973, the year Roe v. Wade was decided, there were 615,831 abortions which translates to an abortion ratio of 196 abortions per 1,000 live births and an abortion rate of 14 per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44. The number of abortions peaked in 1990 at 1,429,247, yielding a ratio of 344 abortions per 1,000 live births and a rate of 24 per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 and 44. From that high, the number of abortions reported to the CDC had declined to 854,122 by 2002. (This number is artificially low, however. California, Alaska and New Hampshire stopped reporting their data to the CDC in 1998. In one year, the CDC estimated that women in California had 275,000 abortions, which would boost the U.S. total to more than 1 million.)
The Alan Guttmacher Institute compiles its own data from surveys of abortion providers. The institute’s data indicate that there were about 800,000 abortions in 1973 and that the number doubled to around 1.6 million in 1990. Since then the number fell to just under 1.3 million in 2002. This implies that the CDC is missing data for about 450,000 abortions.
In any case, both data sets agree that the number of abortions in the United States declined during the 1990s and then essentially stabilized in the past few years.
Who gets abortions? Half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended and about half of these unintended pregnancies are aborted. The CDC reports that 81 percent of the women who get abortions are unmarried and that 52 percent are under the age of 25. At current rates, one-third of American women will have had an abortion before they reach age 45.
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Fling the poo! It makes for more intresting reading.
Gas Prices have been kept artificially low for way too long. American’s won’t change habits and American Business will not produce new technologies until they are finacially viable.
When gas get’s to 6 (7?8?)bucks a gallon, people will change and products will change. The only folks running around in hybrids right now are Greenies.
By Newzwyre
April 24, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
We can make sure that our kids have access to good, effective birth control. Condoms. The pill. IUDs. And, while parental approval would be fantastic, they should be able to get these things without, if they aren’t comfortable talking to their parents about it.
As far as out-of-wedlock births, if you need to stop them, you need to provide the basics mentioned above. But, you also need to look at why young women are getting pregnant and why young men look at the number of kids they’ve sired as bragging rights. Is it because they don’t see a future for themselves? Is it for the benefits? (a big problem here) Is it because they have so little love in their life, they want a child who will love them??
(applause) Kudos, UsinUK!
The word morality is the culprit. How did that word become evil?
your definition of “morality” - It is just saying that people should respect each other and teach each other to be smart and not do stupid things that screw up one’s life.)- isn’t what MOST people think of when they hear the word.
For far too many people “morality” is Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. It’s Pat Robertson saying something nutty - again. It’s televangelists praying in the pews on Sunday and visiting a hooker on Monday. It’s Dana Carvey’s “Church Lady”. It’s Fred Phelps and Eric Rudolph. It’s burqua’s and honor killings. Prohibition and blue laws. It’s close-minded, insular, and rightous. It’s anger, judgment, condemnation, superiority, hatred, and punishment.
“Morality” used to be a guide for “clean living” and a healthy life. Now it’s been changed to demonizing groups, people, or their personal choices because those choices offended the religious sensibilities of the powerful.
my $.02 -
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
newzy -
“Morality” used to be a guide for “clean living” and a healthy life.
nah. “morality” has always meant I’m better than you are. going back to the Puritans and beyond.
By Truth
April 24, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
USinUK
First, there are no numbers or percentages. I did some research this morning. I also found that teen pregnancies were actually higher in the 1950s, but the number of teens getting married were MUCH higher. People started their lives earlier.
Teaching morality isn’t perfect and while sex ed is a good thing, contraception education should be part of a comprehensive course on the subject, including reasons to wait.
Again, I think the anti-religous movement has simply made words like morality evil. Look up the blog and see how people are referring to the word. Look how most of the progressives here refer to anything that has anything to do with religion.
I don’t like any kids being weighed down with the responsibilities of raising a child, whether they are driving or not. I certainly don’t want a child to have to decide whether or not to have an abortion.
Other countries have much better stats on teen problems than we have. Why is that?
My daughter graduates from high school this year and she didn’t date until this last year. She wanted to date an 18 year old at age 14. That didn’t happen, but it was a very delicate thing to approach, but her Mom and I did it in a way that she did not resent us. Her friend was dating the guys older friend and her friend now has a child and the “dude” is gone.
The difference between the two girl’s lives were not the sex ed class at school. It was the wisdom and understanding of my ex who taught her that the things we taught her were true.
By Truth
April 24, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Newzwyre
I agree. That is what people think when they hear the word. But why is that? Why would the actions of a few people be allowed to change such a good word and the good concept behind it?
By Truth
April 24, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Thanks. I get my abortion stats from the CDC which is where you go. But there were no records kept of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
Truth -
contraception education should be part of a comprehensive course on the subject, including reasons to wait.
hey - I’m right there with you on that one. I don’t think that it’s giving our kids mixed messages to say that one day you’ll be having sex. When you do, we want you to be ready for it so that you won’t start a family until you’re ready to. However, you have a long life ahead of you, don’t try to grow up too quickly.
Other countries have much better stats on teen problems than we have. Why is that?
and the UK is one of them - why?? kids are definitely just as sexually active (and probably at a younger average age than the US, even). Sex ed is comprehensive here. People here have fewer hangups about religion. Contraception is easy-peasy to get. But, the UK is still a lot higher than continental Europe.
It was the wisdom and understanding of my ex who taught her that the things we taught her were true.
IMHO, waaaayyyy too many parents are more focused on being their kids friends rather than their parents - they’re not setting boundaries, they’re not telling them NO (whether it’s about dating or clothes or anything else). That’s one of the reasons we are having the fallout on a number of fronts, not just pregnancy.
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
FYI -
Most of Greece still practices those old moral ways along with the shame, etc that you are referring to and they have the problem of (unauthorized, of course) dump sites for unwanted babies. Why would you want to return to that?
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
truth -
Why would the actions of a few people be allowed to change such a good word and the good concept behind it?
I dunno. why are all democrats tarred with the Ted Kennedy brush? why are all feminists accused of being d**/man-haters? I could go on …
By Truth
April 24, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
JokesON
The first time I brought up morality was when I was saying that in ancient times, many leaders would use religion to keep people in line. But at that time, the mere mention of religion would send the progressives here into the rage that you mentioned. I had never even mentioned Christianity, but I was called many names, compared to chuck and preached at by most of the blog. And here, months later, in spite of repeated attempts at having others actually read what I had written, you STILL think it was about Christianity.
It isn’t nearly as bad now, even though yesterday proved that the amount of close mindedness and hate still exist whenever religion is mentioned, not supported or pushed on anyone, but simply brought up in the conversation.
I am always troubled whenever I see that a group of people cannot discuss a specific topic because of hate and anger like I see here toward anything religous.
I am not a religous person but I believe that religion has helped the world much more than it has hurt it. I know that it has helped my family and back home, my family’s church are the center of their lives. They are good people who help people and are there for old and sick people long after the government sponsored handouts are long gone.
I HAVE to get to work. Welcome back.
By Truth
April 24, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Agree with most of what you say. But my little girl never really wanted to be under dressed or over sexy. I think her friend that got pregnant was a huge deterrent, but her mom is really smart and my girl has always been modest. She is now a beautiful girl and it is so nice to see her in nice stylish clothes that make her look very attractive while not flaunting her figure. I’m her Dad so I would be pleased with a berrkah. (Just kidding).
I have to go work. Have a great day, liberal.
By USinUK
April 24, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
truth - I am always troubled whenever I see that a group of people cannot discuss a specific topic because of hate and anger like I see here toward anything religous.
fercryingoutloud … what hate and anger??? hmmm??? Newzy, Jokes and I have been perfectly reasonable and even-handed. you got ONE pikey post about it. ONE. that’s hardly “hate and anger” and DEFINITELY doesn’t support your premise that we can’t discuss the topic.
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
I had never even mentioned Christianity…
To use USinUK’s word: fercryingoutloud
And one of the many issues in your post is how it presumes there is one decided morality.
what hate and anger??? hmmm??? Newzy, Jokes and I have been perfectly reasonable and even-handed. you got ONE pikey post about it. ONE. that’s hardly “hate and anger” and DEFINITELY doesn’t support your premise that we can’t discuss the topic.
Agreed. TOJ acts as though any disagreement with one of his posts is anger which is not the case.
I am not a religous person but I believe that religion has helped the world much more than it has hurt it. I know that it has helped my family and back home, my family’s church are the center of their lives.
Three separate notions there. I agree that religion can be good for an individual who wants/likes it, but not those that do not agree with it and definitively not the world as a whole.
By chuck
April 24, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
jokeson, could you point us to even one article that supports either of your assertions about Greece? I personally don’t believe either of them.
Are you actually saying that Greece teaches their children to be MORAL, so they go out and put their babies in a dumpster? That is beyond the pale unbelievable. It makes no sense whatsoever. Now I am not one to ask anybody who posts here to cite references for their opinions, but when you offer an opinion like that and present it as fact with nothing to back it up, it’s got to be challenged.
By a regular who is lurking this week
April 24, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
I googled “abortion and Greece” and discovered this information from the United Nations website. I don’t know the copyright date, but I figured it’s a reliable source, being from the UN.
http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/abortion/doc/greece.doc
By lozen
April 24, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
USinUK, what does pikey mean?
By SnideComment
April 24, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
but I figured it’s a reliable source, being from the UN.
not if you are a RightWinger.
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Thank you a regular who is lurking this week I saw a whole documentary on NPR a year or so back and could not find a reference on their site.
Are you actually saying that Greece teaches their children to be MORAL, so they go out and put their babies in a dumpster? That is beyond the pale unbelievable.
Just as unbelievable as the promise program (whatever it is named) having a high number of unprotected sex when they finally do?
The consequences of teaching only morality is that many will tech it as “these people who do this are good and these over here are bad; and no kid wants to be labeled as “bad.” Armed with nothing more than shame and guilt will drive children to do all sorts of inhumane actions to hide/prevent/dispose of a pregnancy.
See the article of the girl that tried to flush her newborn in the school toilet? What do you suppose she was afraid of? What info was she armed with?
By olga
April 24, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
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By chuck
April 24, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
I hate to tell you jokeson, but the article posted by the lurker supports my position that they have the same abortion rules as the rest of europe. There is absolutely nothing in there that supports your indefensible post.
See the article of the girl that tried to flush her newborn in the school toilet? What do you suppose she was afraid of? What info was she armed with?
I don’t have any idea what she was afraid of…BUT NEITHER DO YOU. FOR ALL WE KNOW, SHE MAY HAVE THOUGHT THAT BABIES HAVE COOTIES. Maybe she’s psychotic and the “voices” were telling her to do it. You cannot take one or even a few anecdotal cases and apply them generally to the whole population in any event.
We had this whole discussion last week about the difference between liberals and conservatives. See liberals look at that ONE CASE and want to change the way we do things FOR EVERYBODY. Conservatives look at that one case, and we don’t worry about it because the policy in place is working great for the vast majority. There is no need to change because of the ONE CASE.
Your whole argument concerning Greece is fallacious. The “special” you saw on TV is exactly how liberals work to change society for the worse. Get a bunch of liberals excited about the ONE CASE and all common sense flies out the window.
By Copyleft
April 24, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
You mean, like… Terri Schiavo?
Ooooh, gotcha! (snicker)
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 24, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
Dress like a slut get treated as one…bottom line.
By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
Your whole argument concerning Greece is fallacious. The “special” you saw on TV is exactly how liberals work to change society for the worse. Get a bunch of liberals excited about the ONE CASE and all common sense flies out the window.
Piles of babies are not “one case.”
See liberals look at that ONE CASE and want to change the way we do things FOR EVERYBODY. Conservatives look at that one case, and we don’t worry about it because the policy in place is working great for the vast majority.
And I would put it to you that conservatives need the truth to slap them black-and-blue before they will acknowledge it. One sees a potential for trouble and wants to investigate if it means anything, the other calls it bs to even look for clearer answers.
I don’t have any idea what she was afraid of…BUT NEITHER DO YOU. Seeing as I read the article, yeah I do have an idea. You on the other-hand act as described above; ignore all that does not conform to your current beliefs no matter how profound or validated.
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April 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
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By Gandalf, the Grey
April 24, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
How is that any different from sucking it out with a tool or cutting it’s head off as it is being born? Same damn thing. Why worry about some greek babies? that is what they consider right. They are pro choice, even after birth. Let ‘em be.
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 24, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
The greeks cust call it post labor abortion, if you are pro choice, you should embrace it. Maybe all the way till they are 18???? would bring new power to the phrase “I brought you into this world, and I damn sure can take you out of it…”
By lozen
April 24, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
Yes, I see the same was true in Greece as it was here in the US. When abortion was illegal, there were many illegal abortions. If abortion becomes illegal again, there will be many illegal abortions again. I loved this “Maybe it’s none of our g—d—- business what another American citizen chooses to do with his or her own body.” Until birth control is 100 percent effective, we will have abortions. Until people stop being shamed into not using BC because they’re pretending they aren’t going to have sex until the last second, we will have abortions. Until human beings stop having such strong sexual urges, we will have abortions. Until young teens get the information they need about birth control, boys are taught they have to use it, and young females are taught how to stand their ground, say no to heavy male pressure, and somehow learn the self-esteem to insist males use condoms, we will have abortions and STDS! I was a teenager in those good old 50s people love to imagine. Almost every boy I ever dated was determined and persistent about having sex. The pressure on teen girls to have sex was and is incredible. I was called a tease many times because I liked to snuggle and kiss but I wasn’t ready to have sex and did not want to get pregnant. I was told so many times, “If you really loved me you would….” I was told several times “you are giving me b-ue b-lls”! I was told, “you won’t get pregnant. I’ll take it out, I promise.” Girls didn’t admit back then they were having sex. They just dropped out of school for a year, got married at 16 or 17 (like my best friend who cried on my shoulder the night we were supposed to have graduated together), or had parents who flew them up to New York or Chicago where there were doctors that discreetly took care of that little problem for those who could afford it. Boys admitted they were doing it, of course. They loved to talk about doing it. They bragged about doing it. They lied about how many times they did it in one night, how many girls they’d done it with, etc. They said they were having sex with their girlfriends when they weren’t so the other guys would think they were studs. Boys couldn’t wait to get rid of virginity (the dads nudge each other and wink: “boys will be boys”); girls were taught they had to hang on to it as if it were gold! The girls who did it were called sluts. The boys who did it were called studs, real men, lucky! We had all the morality preached to us that some people think is the cure-all, and it didn’t stop that incredibly strong sexual urge from overwhelming so many of us. And it would not stop it now.
By Newzwyre
April 24, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Truth wrote “I think the anti-religous movement has simply made words like morality evil. Look up the blog and see how people are referring to the word. Look how most of the progressives here refer to anything that has anything to do with religion.”
This is an interesting question. When did “religion” become such a loaded word? I believe that it was probably in the late 70’s or early ‘80s, when America’s largest Protestant group, the Baptists, decided to become active in secular politics. Their aim was to weave their personal sectarian beliefs into the fabric of the law, ultimately forcing people into moral behavior and uniting the country under their particular vision of God. Instead they ended up dividing the country into “us” and “them”; “us” being the decent moral people and “them” being the immoral America-hating atheists who’re trying to remove God from America. They’ve often said that if you believe in Church/State separation you must not believe in God and that Liberals are all immoral secularists who want to destroy families and remove God from America.
Unfortunately, when one side denounces the other as “hating God” because they disagree with you politically, it’s only a matter of time before belief itself becomes “political”. And they have made “faith” and belief in God into something political instead of spiritual. We’ve all heard the rhetoric from certain sectors about how you can’t be a “real” Catholic if you vote for a pro-choice candidate. Or how you’re not really a “Christian” if you don’t condemn homosexuality. Ever hear “God hates F@gs”, or “God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve” etc.?
They’ve branded “religion” to mean “Evangelical Christianity” and vilified anyone who doesn’t share their theology. Then they used “morality” as a cudgel until it began to mean “anything that has to do with other people’s underpants”. The Moral Majority, Focus on the Family, the Westboro Baptists, Concerned Women of America, and the Family Research Council are fruits from the same tree, all use the same basic rhetoric, and all have pretty much the same moral agenda. And now they’re looking around, bewildered about how “religion” and “morality” could have been distorted into words of hatred and anger.
It was these religious busybodies who changed it from “God is Love” to “God hates F@gs (and Liberals)”; “Blessed are the peacemakers“ to “Shock and Awe”; and “my kingdom is not of this world” became “we are a Christian nation”. It wasn’t any “anti-religious movement” that changed the meaning of the words, Truth, it was those who mis-used them in a quest for power.
By chuck
April 24, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
So did you think to post a LINK to the article so that we could check it out? Did you think to maybe post a QUOTE from the article supporting your assertion? NO. You just expected us to believe it because you said it. EVEN if you had, it is still the “anecdotal” ONE CASE.
By sonia
April 24, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
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By JokesOn
April 24, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
So did you think to post a LINK to the article so that we could check it out? Did you think to maybe post a QUOTE from the article supporting your assertion? NO. You just expected us to believe it because you said it. EVEN if you had, it is still the “anecdotal” ONE CASE.
Yeah. It is insignificant enough that countries, greece/china/japan/US, have begun policy alowing anonomous baby drop offs at hospitals.
Way to show that christian love again: ignore the needy until they finally pass legislation and then berate them for that legislation.
By kimberly
April 24, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Lozen, nicely put! Thanks for breaking it down one more time. I think people’s historical perspective is dangerously skewed by too much television and wishful thinking.
By Archie
April 24, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
The pressure on teen girls to have sex was and is incredible. That’s a true statement but the pressure on teen boys is equally incredible and I mention it because I didn’t see it anywhere in your post. One of the reasons boys apply the pressure on girls that you speak of is because of peer pressure. Peer pressure is not one-sided and in fact sometimes it’s the boys that are pressured by the girls. I know this because at one time I was a boy.
IMHO, waaaayyyy too many parents are more focused on being their kids friends rather than their parents - they’re not setting boundaries, they’re not telling them NO (whether it’s about dating or clothes or anything else). That’s one of the reasons we are having the fallout on a number of fronts, not just pregnancy. Preach the truth USinUk!!!
By lozen
April 24, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Pertinent comments today from NARAL:
What’s the latest trend among teen girls? Unfortunately, it’s not just Facebook or American Idol.
It’s the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases. Last month the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced the shocking fact that at least one in four teenage girls nationwide has a STD. One in four! Even as the teen STD crisis deepens, the Bush administration continues to funnel millions in taxpayer dollars to dangerous and discredited “abstinence-only” programs that replace lessons about birth control with lies about contraceptive failure.
Yesterday, a House committee—led by pro-choice champion Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA)—held its first-ever oversight hearing on Bush’s dangerous “abstinence-only” policy.
What disturbing information was revealed?
Expert after expert testified that, ten years and $1.5 billion in taxpayer dollars later, “abstinence-only” programs still do not work. Worse yet, by denying teens information about how to protect themselves, these ineffective programs are doing active harm.
By El Perro
April 24, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Greetings from Vegas!
USinUK—I have to withdraw my offer to take on 4 of your extra ounds. I’ve been stuffing myself at the buffets and picked up an extra 6 so far.
If any of you decide to visit Vegas, be sure to stay at the Palms. I talked my way into a penthouse suite, yet only paid $200 total for 3 nights.
Truth—Is you Ukrainian friend 26 y.o.? She might be two timing me!
Internet time running out, see you all later.
By lozen
April 24, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Hey Archie, I don’t know how old you are; were you a teenager in the 50s with me? Of course, I don’t know for sure but I don’t think there was any pressure then on the boys from girls. The conversations we had were about how to control his sexual urges and keep him from doing it and keep him from leaving us for other girls who would. We were supposed to rebuff his advances without hurting his ego. We were supposed to control his sexual urges; nobody even told me I would have some of those urges myself. It was like girls just didn’t feel sexual.
If we were doing it we kept it a secret and didn’t brag about our conquests like the boys did. (And BTW I know this because I had a brother and I used to sneak and listen to his conversations with his friends). Our mothers told us if we did it the boy would tell and our reputation would be ruined, a good man would never marry us if we weren’t virgins, we would go to hell, we would get pregnant, everybody would talk about us, etc. Did our fathers tell the boys the same? No. They might have told them, wait until you’re married, but there was that little nudge and wink …, “be a real man son and get as much as you can.” When you were a boy, how many girls would you say pressured you to have sex?
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By USinUK
April 25, 2008 8:07 AM | Link to this
lozen -
USinUK, what does pikey mean?
briefly, it means unnecessarily rude, snappy:
But the bigger problem is your (sic) ignorant about so many things which you would never admit You don’t seem to know anything about economics, the media, history, sociology or other cultures. You base your assumptions totally on ultra conservative politics and puritanical religion based american morality. And then you can just blame everything on the “dims” and see it the way you want to believe it is, right?
I mean, if you disagree with the guy, fine - use rhetoric rather than personal attack. you were doing fine up until that point (and in subsequent posts) - but that last paragraph was just … well … pikey. (not to be confused with snarky)
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By Archie
April 25, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
Hey Archie, I don’t know how old you are; were you a teenager in the 50s with me? No I was not a teenager in the 50s. I have said before I am in my 40’s and times were a little different when I grew up. Lozen you do a good job with your posts but I wish you would give some wisdom to the younger ladies of today because so many of them can’t speak as you speak or relate to the things you speak of. Of course we all know men do some things wrong but it seems as if people are unwilling to speak up about the young women of today and their behavior of which is oftentimes rude and selfish. Lozen, my wife who is a woman, agrees with me that some,some of the women of today need training on how to dress,how to talk to a person(notice I said person), and some training on what feminism is and isn’t. Anyway Lozen, USinUk speak on it…
By Truth
April 25, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
Just too much spam.
I’ll try later.
By Snidely Buttright
April 25, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
my wife who is a woman Nooooo, you don’t say! Really?! your wife is a woman!!?
ROTFLMAO!!
By Truth
April 25, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
Archie
some of the women of today need training on how to dress,how to talk to a person(notice I said person), and some training on what feminism is and isn’t.
Good post. I see the same thing. But I also see some very wonderful young women who seem to understand that classy can be a huge attribute.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
On the lighter side
A Question about men.
Last night I was having drinks with a couple of male friends at a local watering hole. This place is known for having stunning women working there. Added to that, there were several very attractive women that had short shorts and very reveling tops that were there also having drinks. We were enjoying the eye-candy when three women entered the bar that was involved in a promotion for (of all people) alka seltzer.
These women were wearing baseball caps, a neat sky blue blouse and all the appropriate under wear, a fairly short pleated skirt, high heel sandals and stockings which ended just above their knees, reveling maybe an inch of bare thigh.
Every guy in the place was stopped in our tracks. The sight of that one inch of bare thigh was so much more appealing than all the short shorts, bare mid drifts and low cut tops.
Why is it that we are so much more attracted to that inch of bare thigh than the women who were wearing incredibly short shorts?
A woman can be setting somewhere in a bikini and a woman will be setting nearby in a short skirt. But men will be breaking their necks to look up the skirt while virtually ignoring the women in the bikini.
I have considered producing a TV show called What Men Want. It would be a series of interviews of very successful and attractive men who would go into great detail about what they like and don’t like when meeting an attractive women.
It seems that many women listen to other women and gay men about what is sexy and what isn’t. That seems like the wrong people to be talking to.
By USinUK
April 25, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
Since we were talking about consumer confidence earlier this week, I thought I’d post the Univ. of Michigan numbers that were just released:
U.S. consumer confidence fell more than forecast in April to a 26-year low as record fuel prices and rising unemployment threatened to reduce spending.
The Reuters/University of Michigan sentiment index decreased to 62.6, from 69.5 the previous month. The measure was down from a preliminary estimate of 63.2 issued on April 11.
Consumers are growing increasingly anxious because the economy has lost almost a quarter million jobs so far this year, gasoline is up 17 percent and property values have fallen. Sales of houses and cars have declined as a result, contributing to a slowdown that may bring an end to the six-year expansion.
A measure of current conditions, which reflects Americans’ perceptions of their financial situation and whether it’s a good time to make big-ticket purchases like cars, decreased to 77 from 84.2 last month.
Consumers were also more concerned about inflation. Americans thought prices would increase 4.8 percent over the next 12 months, up from a 4.3 percent estimate in March. Longer term, inflation was pegged at 3.2 percent, the highest level since August 2006 and compared with 2.9 percent last month.
The economy lost 80,000 jobs in March, the most in five years, following a 76,000 drop in payrolls in each of the prior two months, according to figures from the Labor Department. The jobless rate rose to 5.1 percent, the highest level in more than two years.
Rising fuel costs have contributed to a drop in auto sales and prompted some shoppers to limit trips to malls. The average price of regular unleaded gasoline rose to a record $3.58 a gallon yesterday, according to data from AAA.
… but other than that, it’s aaaallllll because of the Democrats and that pesky librul media …
By lozen
April 25, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Archie, sometimes I think you want me to say I see things from a male perspective and I can’t say that. I’m a woman, just like your wife ;- ). I know females aren’t perfect; I also know females have people on their case all the time. I see a day to day, endless bias against females. It’s built into our language, and our institutions, and it ain’t dead Archie. It touches every area of our lives. Females, for one thing, have always been held accountable for the morals of everyone - themselves and males. How many times have we heard “She should just keep her legs together!” Never “Why don’t those boys just keep it in their pants!” And as a teenager if I’d had sex and gotten pregnant it would have been totally my fault because “what else can you expect from boys” my mother would have said. I resent the fact that I was held accountable for keeping everybody “moral” when I was a 13 year old!
I learned recently that in Victorian times when a funeral procession entered the cemetery, three bells were rung for a child, six for a woman, and nine for a man. The reason was that the less moral and pure one was the more bells they needed to drive away evil! And you know what, those men had a hell of a lot more fun in their lives because they didn’t have to be so “moral”. They were given some leeway.
You can argue that it’s not so much that way anymore, but I still see society blaming only the girls for having kids and not being married, for having abortions, etc. Society still blames the female for being raped (No, we don’t blame her BUT she shouldn’t have been __ {fill in the blank} if she didn’t wanta get raped!) It has happened here on this blog!
Being female gives me a different perspective. Being a feminist gives me a different perspective and way of analyzing the world, just as someone who studies sociology sees the world through a different perspective than someone who studies math. I will argue for females, you feel free to argue for males if you feel the need. After growing up in a culture biased against me and all females for hundreds of years in the past, (and still biased, although people deny it, just as whites deny being prejudiced against blacks anymore while opening their mouths and showing that they are!), hey, it doesn’t bother me too much if I am biased in favor of females sometimes. Don’t expect me to argue for the male perspective. There are plenty of men who will do that and sometimes get pretty pikey about it too.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Never “Why don’t those boys just keep it in their pants!”
You never heard this said to a guy?
This is why I cannot buy into lozen’s pov in these issues. She does not even try to see things from another’s perspective, states above that she cannot because she is a female yet has stated that she knows what it is like to be male because she raised one (at least), and wants guys to see it from a woman’s perspective although she cannot, or can she. Too many angles that purely depend on how she wants to lead the topic, not on actual honesty.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
USinUK
… but other than that, it’s aaaallllll because of the Democrats and that pesky librul media …
The high price of gas is driving our economy into the ground. No one is denying that. Fuel oils is also causing a huge problem.
But the media, liberal or conservative gets much of it’s advertising dollars from big oil. Do you get the Sunday Morning political shows over there? They are all sponsored by big oil. So there is little talk about the real damage the oil companies are doing to our country.
It was easy for the dims to wag their fingers and claim to be able to fix the high gas prices, that is until they gained power and started getting the same huge money that the Republicans had been getting.
We are screwed, girl. No one is going to stand up to big oil. You may notice that no one is even claiming to be able to do it.
If Obama wins in November, do you believe that there is a chance that he will stand up to big oil? The last president to do it was Jimmy Carter and look at what happened to him? One term because the oil companies faked a shortage and sent our economy into the crapper.
You stated that the president nor congress really affect the economy. But a big business like Big Oil, out of control sure does. Until Big Oil is regulated or at least some policies against them are enacted, expect the economy to get worse.
The only question is:
Who are you going to blame after two or three years of a Democratically Controlled House, a Democratically controlled Senate and Obama in the White House, all of them getting Big Oil money and we are paying 6 bucks a gallon? I paid 4 bucks yesterday.
By lozen
April 25, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
And of course the MOST important thing about females is whether they give us just the right tantalizing amount of flesh to look at or too much. Right Archie?
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
And of course the MOST important thing about females is whether they give us just the right tantalizing amount of flesh to look at or too much. Right Archie?
I wonder if that is important to more women or men…
By kimberly
April 25, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
I think Lozen is spot on with her observations.
“Until Big Oil is regulated or at least some policies against them are enacted, expect the economy to get worse.”
Ya think? I love how the Republican-controlled Congress let the oil executives “testify” about their crimes without the tedious little detail of being sworn under oath to tell the truth. And how Cheney pulled his buddies into energy policy meetings but did not allow the details or results of these meetings to be open for public scrutiny. (No wonder we don’t know what the hell is really going on!) Many of those same people DEMANDED, with the full support of their constituency, that a sitting President swear to the details of his peckerly pleasure, though. Gee that’s really our business… And still, some people will blame the Democrats and make excuses for the Republicans and their big oil buddies no matter WHAT they do. Then they’ll complain bitterly when we don’t take them seriously. That’s my observation, anyway.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Who are you going to blame after two or three years of a Democratically Controlled House, a Democratically controlled Senate and Obama in the White House, all of them getting Big Oil money and we are paying 6 bucks a gallon? I paid 4 bucks yesterday.
That is an easy one: The Democratically controlled Senate and Obama.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Howdy gang—Back from Vegas, and tired as a, well, a dog…
Quick economic point about gas prices that no one seems to have mentioned: About 80% of the gas that the US buys is based on fixed contracts which were signed long ago. The prices on those barrels is WAY below the price you hear about in the news. The $119 per barrel price you hear about only applies to a small percentage of our oil purchases. Furthermore, the reason the last 20% or so of our oil purchases is so high is due to the future market speculators. That’s what is driving up the price, not Bush, or Congress, or whoever else is taking the blame. Hopefully, the market will level out at some point to give us all a break at the pump. Unfortunately, the long term outlook for gas prices isn’t good due to the rising demand from Chinese consumers. I have to hand it to the Arabs and the Venezuelans for limiting production and laughing at us all the way to the bank….
By lozen
April 25, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Oh Gaaaawwwwddddd! My day is ruined! Maybe my life is ruined! JokesOn doesn’t buy into my pov. I’m just devastated. I mean I really really expected him to agree with every feminist point I ever make! He always agrees with the women who bring this stuff up. But he doesn’t buy into my pov. Kimberly what am I going to do?
By The O-Gee
April 25, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
more like the olymipcs should ban bush
By Truth
April 25, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
lozen
And of course the MOST important thing about females is whether they give us just the right tantalizing amount of flesh to look at or too much. Right Archie?
Maybe this is why thet feminism has so much less credibiity than it used to. That along with the fact that N.O.W. fully supported Clinton’s affairs after publishing a yearly training tape for employers that clearly stated that if an underling woman ends up dating a man who has power over her in the workplace, that should be considered rape.
We were in a bar where many single people congregate. Men look at woman. Women look at men. How you got that anything is the MOST important issue about women points to an anger and hate that negates any logical discussion.
We still have a long way to go until we reach equality between the sexes, but feminists seem much more interested in condemning men than getting anything constructive done.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
I wonder if that is important to more women or men…
I doubt lozen will ever believe me, especially given some of my blog barking, but when men get together, there is generally little talk of “conquests” and almost NO graphic language regarding said sexual conquests. On the other hand, get a bunch of women together, and no topic is taboo, including the size of their male partners.
The reason men don’t “brag” about conquests is that as soon as word gets back to the “conquered”, the well dries up immediately.
Of course, I can’t answer for the type of men that some of you “liberal” women date. You seem to like the pigs.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
JokesOn doesn’t buy into my pov. I’m just devastated.
I have a feeling you are being sarcastic. It fits you;) Nice to know you can reply without the WAAAHHHmbulance.
By lurker
April 25, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Oh, well. There goes the neighborhood. The past week has been refreshing. We actually got to hear some other people instead of the same poster over and over and over and over.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Oh Gaaaawwwwddddd! My day is ruined! Maybe my life is ruined! JokesOn doesn’t buy into my pov. I’m just devastated. I mean I really really expected him to agree with every feminist point I ever make! He always agrees with the women who bring this stuff up. But he doesn’t buy into my pov. Kimberly what am I going to do?
The only good news is that most women have more sense than you do, lozen, and don’t seem to quite as bitter toward life as you.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
JokesOn
I wonder if that is important to more women or men…
In the mid 1990s there was a group of choreographers that worked for Disney that designed most of the big Half-time shows and even designed the opening ceremonies for the Olympics here in Atlanta. The on-field participants all wore grey suites that made the person look like a sexless blob. Breasts were taped down, padding was added to negate certain sexual curves on both women and men.
I think some people, and especially some feminists seem to want this to happen to our culture.
That is an easy one: The Democratically controlled Senate and Obama.
Some might. Hell, you probably would. But look at Kimberly’s post at 1:17. The democrats have been in power for over a year, and they gained that power by promises to lower gas prices and regulate the oil industry. A year and a half later, we have prices 25%-40% higher, the oil companies are even further from being controlled and she says not a single word about that. She talks about the evil Republicans and how they catered to big oil when the prices were much lower. But now that they are higher than ever and the Democrats control Congress, only Republicans are mentioned.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
Gotta say, if Vegas is any yardstick of the future of music, it’s definitely a hip-hop world now. I can pretty much sing along with every Mary J. Blige tune after hanging out along the strip. At The Palms, they blast hip-hop music in the parking lot, the elevator, even in the casino. I wrote them a nice little note explaining to them that the reason I gambled at The Mirage instead of The Palms was due to the overly loud music.
P.S. I placed 5th in a big poker tournament and made a few bucks. Shoulda won the sucker, but got sucked out on twice in a row at the end, then went on tilt and made a bad decision. Unfortunately, my luck at the craps table was poor, so I left town a few hundred dollars poorer than when I got there. I should have stuck to poker only this time.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
El Perro
Truth—Is you Ukrainian friend 26 y.o.? She might be two timing me!
She is “over forty”. The accent is great, isn’t it? And that European attitude is hard to beat.
By lurker
April 25, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
How you got that anything is the MOST important issue about women points to an anger and hate that negates any logical discussion.
Oh yeah. MY anger and hate….That’s the problem! Feminist anger and hate, that’s the problem.
…but feminists seem much more interested in condemning men than getting anything constructive done.
Yeah, NOW never does anything constructive. None of the organizations being run by feminists do anything constructive.
And I could say, “…but men seem much more interested in condemning feminists than getting anything constructive done.” But that would not be accurate; it’s not all “men.” It’s just you!
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
But now that they are higher than ever and the Democrats control Congress, only Republicans are mentioned.
If you research it a little more, Truth, the price of sweet crude has almost nothing to do with politicians, and almost everything due to limited production by the Arabs and Venezuelans along with the crazy future market speculators. Personally, I believe Bush is lobbying the Saudis as hard as he can to raise production. Unfortunately (for us), they’ve stuck together with the other OPEC nations to maximize their profits.
By lozen
April 25, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Of course, I can’t answer for the type of men that some of you “liberal” women date. You seem to like the pigs. From the one person on this blog who has referred to women as “skanks” and other put downs of female sexuality! Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh no, he’s not a pig.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
The only good news is that most women have more sense than you do, lozen, and don’t seem to quite as bitter toward life as you.
I figure the rants are a badge of sort; not talking points, not something to be thought about, but a badge she flaunts like a broach at x-mas dinner. Weird.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
She is “over forty”. The accent is great, isn’t it? And that European attitude is hard to beat.
Good for you, buddy. I haven’t gotten too far with the young ‘un I’ve been chatting with, but I also LOVE the accent and old-fashioned outlook toward dating. Coincidentally, my young Ukrainian friend is also rather conservative. In her words, she thinks Hillary is “evil”.
I’ll tell you what, Truth, I’m ready to extend an olive branch to you as well. You did a good job this week.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah. MY anger and hate….That’s the problem! Feminist anger and hate, that’s the problem.
Did lozen just call herself out as being lurker? Seems so.
And to answer MY anger and hate….That’s the problem!
Not “THE” problem, but “A” problem (for you), yes.
By Seriously, tell me!
April 25, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
No, seriously Dudes. Tell me. Where do the Ukrainians hang out, and how do I meet them? I’d like to meet the men that your women dumped to pursue the “American Dream Male.” I’m totally on board for a little taste of la difference too! American men and women have been torturing/disappointing each other for long enough, haven’t we? Hook a sister up!!
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
From the one person on this blog who has referred to women as “skanks” and other put downs of female sexuality! Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh no, he’s not a pig.
In real life, lozen, I’m a gentleman. But since you only know me as a blogger, I’ll accept your hatred toward me. My guess would be that in “real life”, you are a much more reasonable person than you present yourself as being here. At least I hope so.
I did, however, stop by a strip joint while in Sin City, something I haven’t done for a long time. The funny part is, the only “table dance” I got was when I asked one of the dancers to walk on my back. She popped it pretty good. I’m so conservative, I could only bring myself to stare in their eyes and not at their other parts. I complimented the dancers on things like how pretty their hair and eyes were. I think they liked me.
By Archie
April 25, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
Don’t expect me to argue for the male perspective. There are plenty of men who will do that and sometimes get pretty pikey about it too. Lozen, I don’t expect you to argue for the male perspective but simply be honest! My wife mentions some of same things you mention yet she is outspoken about the behavior of some women. You never addressed some of my points as it seems you’re more concerned with not criticizing women versus improving them. The funny thing is I have said some things to SusieHomemaker and women off the blog and not one, not one, of them has a problem with anything I say and in fact they agree. What’s the point of this post:And of course the MOST important thing about females is whether they give us just the right tantalizing amount of flesh to look at or too much. Right Archie? What’s the point of that question? I mean young ladies do need to be taught how to dress. I said “I wish you would give some wisdom to the younger ladies of today because so many of them can’t speak as you speak or relate to the things you speak of”, that’s not a male perspective but a compliment to you because you are older and wiser than some of women of today. I was taught to tuck my shirttail in and comb my hair so was the person who taught me that a man-hater or just a person trying to give me some good training?
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
No, seriously Dudes. Tell me. Where do the Ukrainians hang out, and how do I meet them? I’d like to meet the men that your women dumped to pursue the “American Dream Male.” I’m totally on board for a little taste of la difference too! American men and women have been torturing/disappointing each other for long enough, haven’t we? Hook a sister up!!
Well, I met the nice Ukrainian girl while shopping for a new car in January. I charmed her by speaking in Ukrainian to her, which is a remnant of my days as a Ukrainian dancer.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
At any rate, “Seriously, tell me”, if things go well tonight, I’ll be off the dating market for good. The love of my life, the redhead, is going to meet me for a drink. She’s the one for me. She has an impeccable character, and is the best mom I know of (next to my own, of course). We “moon in Cancer” fellas are always making comparisons to good ol’ Mom. I read that in a book called “Love On A Rotten Day”.
By lozen
April 25, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
Yeah, I’m “lurker” on another blog too. But I have kept the same name for the whole time I’ve been on this blog instead of changing my name every three or four months after I’ve said something stupid …. JokesOn!
By Truth
April 25, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
El Perro
I understand the economics of oil, but there are somethings that could be done. When the price at the barrel goes up, our gas prices go up the next day. But the fact is: that gas won’t be in our tanks for at least six months. The gas that I paid $4/gal for yesterday, cost the oil companies much less than the current price at the barrel.
And of course there is the fact that the oil companies completely dominated the most profitable businesses every quarter. Any business could be that successful if they were selling a necessary commodity and they could set their own prices.
And above all, why did thee dims make promises that they knew that they wouldn’t keep? (I know. Silly question)
By Archie
April 25, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
Leave my man JokesOn alone. He is a good guy. I called him out about his McCain position but JokesOn is a good guy and there are other good guy’s on this blog. Sometimes people use gender to justify bad behavior. Carole Mallory said she doesn’t think sex is something to be ashamed of and she’s so right, but you might ought to have some shame if you’re having sex with another woman’s husband, get it? I had sex two days ago and as soon as I can I will have sex again but I will have some shame if it’s not with my spouse.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
El Perro
You will like this. She is an MD. Her husband died and she decided to come here. She hasn’t been able to practice here and after talking to several docs about the way they have to answer to HMOs, she is staying in research, at least for now.
She is a good person with an absolutely great sense of humor. She does very well, money wise and even though she claims to be a communist, she absolutely loves it here. This is her third spring in the states, but this is her first one here. We are good friends that happen to be dating, nothing really serious.
Br careful of the young ones. If she is having money problems, be very careful. But I do understand. When they are 40, they are strikingly beautiful. When they are 25, they are Paulina Poriskova.
… and that damned accent, I always feel like Bond … James Bond.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Archie—You’re alright in my book, in spite of your support for Hillary. ; > }
By kimberly
April 25, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Y’all just prove Lozen’s point when you pounce on her for articulating her experienes and observations as a woman. “Oooooo, she must be really bitter and hateful!” Bull-dookie. Being brave enough to tell it like it is does not equate to bitter, and over the years, I remember her saying only positive things about what she’s accomplished in her life, including moving past the misogynistic teachings of her youth.
Apparently we all differ on the characteristics that make up a “virtuous” woman, but in the end, WFT difference does it make? It doesn’t. The heart wants what it wants, and nobody cares about anyone else’s.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
El Perro
Red Headed Ukranian in her 20s.
That’s just too much to think about.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
Now, isn’t talking about male-female relationships a lot hotter than boring Olympic Opening Ceremony talk?? If I were in charge of the topics here, it would be all-sex, all-the time.
Now where is that poster who suggested we all meet for some indiscriminate sex with each other to soothe all the “prickly personalities”? That was a great American who suggested that idea….
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
But I have kept the same name for the whole time I’ve been on this blog instead of changing my name every three or four months after I’ve said something stupid…
If I was to spar with you in “being cute” I would reply that you would have to change your name much more often than every three months if you followed the above.
And, yes, I have changed my name once; but not because of something I said.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
She is a good person with an absolutely great sense of humor. She does very well, money wise and even though she claims to be a communist, she absolutely loves it here. This is her third spring in the states, but this is her first one here. We are good friends that happen to be dating, nothing really serious.
My bet is that your friend is from Eastern Ukraine, near Kiev then. My friend hails from Western Ukraine, which actually used to be a part of Poland in the not-too-distant past.
And yes, I agree, Eastern European women are phenomenally beautiful.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
Red Headed Ukranian in her 20s.
No, no, no. The “redhead” is an American woman who is now 42 who I dated for three years back in 2002-2005. The Ukrainian girl has brown hair. If the redhead will take me back, I’ll be the happiest man in Atlanta. She’s the only girl who ever dumped me, and I’ve regretted it ever since.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Apparently we all differ on the characteristics that make up a “virtuous” woman, but in the end, WFT difference does it make? It doesn’t. The heart wants what it wants, and nobody cares about anyone else’s.
And speaking of hot, hot redheads! Wise words in your second paragraph, gorgeous. I’ll be smart for a change and not comment on your first paragraph.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
You know I’d give my left nut for a chance with you, k. Fantasy air smooches to you!
By chuck
April 25, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Hey Kimberly. I gues these guys were just taking their cues from your guy Barack HUSSEIN Obama. After all we just cling to our guns and religion because we are bitter, so any time anybody clings to ANY philosophy or belief, it must be because they are bitter.
Barack HUSSEIN Obama has taught us so much. I love hi…..
oops, I menat to say him, but I fainted just thinking about him.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
kimberly
Y’all just prove Lozen’s point when you pounce on her for articulating her experienes and observations as a woman.
if she was “pounced on”, she was pounced on for writing this:
And of course the MOST important thing about females is whether they give us just the right tantalizing amount of flesh to look at or too much. Right Archie?
She took an innocent statement I had made and was desperately trying to twist it to say that I was somehow only valuing women for the amount of flesh they can show. Then it seems that she came back as another poster and launched into a rant against me … yet again.
Not doing much for feminism there.
By JokesOn
April 25, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Y’all just prove Lozen’s point when you pounce on her for articulating her experienes and observations as a woman. “Oooooo, she must be really bitter and hateful!”
That was one comment. As usual there were simple and straight forward questions (as there should be in conversation) and the reply was snarky and ignorant.
Don’t want to talk about something? Don’t bring it up for god’s sake then or have the strength to hash it over. Geeze.
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
oops, I menat to say him, but I fainted just thinking about him.
Well, the truth finally came out, on April 25, 2008 at 3:20 PM—chuck’s gay. Kind of like those closet queer politicians who try to pass anti-gay laws during the week, then tap on airport bathroom floors over the weekend.
No fantasy air kisses for you, chuckles.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
El Perro
My bet is that your friend is from Eastern Ukraine, near Kiev then. My friend hails from Western Ukraine, which actually used to be a part of Poland in the not-too-distant past.
She is actually from Kiev. She claims that Atlanta is much like that city. Must be a nice place.
She’s the only girl who ever dumped me, and I’ve regretted it ever since.
Be careful. I made the worst mistake of my life because I was determined to win a woman back.
By Archie
April 25, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
Hello Kimberly, I didn’t pounce on Lozen, I tried to compliment and ask for her wisdom at the same time. Kimberly I will ask for your advice to young women on how to be a lady. Your wisdom. I have complimented the ladies on the blog so many times but I have also called out some of the guys so I do the same thing to the ladies. Also Kimberly as imperfect as we are I do think some people care about the hearts of other people.
By Truth
April 25, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Time to run
Everybody have a great weekend.
And ladies, I promise not to stare when the women wear the short skirts and stockings into the bar. (Bwa-ha-ha. I almost didn’t get that out. LOL)
By lozen
April 25, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Simply be honest about what, Archie? I was trying to be honest about my views. Women have always judged other women … to keep us in line. It’s part of being the moral policemen for our society. I spoke to that in my previous post. I think some people spend far too much time judging women and what we wear or don’t wear, concerning themselves with other peoples’ business. OK? It is why there’s so much emphasis on what Hilary is wearing. Remember the huge bruhaha about her showing a little cleavage? It’s juvenile and uninteresting. I don’t want to know what Senator Clinton is wearing. I want to know what she says and what she stands for. If a woman dresses in shorts and a tank top/halter top for her comfort in hot weather and someone judges her as dressing like a hooker, who is off the wall?
I saw a young woman yesterday with long blond hair wearing a bright orange short, short dress with a halter top and very high orange sandals around noon on a college campus. I had a moment of thought “how inappropriate. She looks like she’s just coming home from a night clubbing or ready to go out clubbing in about ten hours!” A couple of minutes later she joined a group with cameras and light reflectors! She was a model dressed for work. Who am I to judge the woman anyway? I automatically do it because I was trained by my mother to do it, but I also know it’s not my business!
You never addressed some of my points as it seems you’re more concerned with not criticizing women versus improving them.
Do I really know what would improve other people? Maybe I sometimes think I do but does that mean I do? No. Do I have a right to tell someone else how they should dress? People make bad fashion choices all the time. Am I going to tell them they have to follow my standards for appropriate dress? I don’t think so. They’re not going to listen to me if I do tell them! They’re living in a different world and a different culture.
If young ladies need to be taught how to dress it’s not my job. Unless you have a daughter who is a young lady ;-) it’s not your job. Do you think there are a bunch of younger ladies reading this blog for advice from a middle aged woman or man?
I was poking fun at Truth and his post about how much sexier a little thigh is than showing too much (in his opinion). That wasn’t saying anything about you but I can see it must have confused you. Sorry about that.
Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am old and wise, young and stupid, strong and weak, good and bad … and all that other human stuff!
By El Perro
April 25, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Be careful. I made the worst mistake of my life because I was determined to win a woman back.
Don’t worry, Truth, I gave up long ago trying to “win her back”. I’[m just going to show up and try to be myself. If that’s not enough, I’ll just keep living with my broken heart.
Also Kimberly as imperfect as we are I do think some people care about the hearts of other people.
Shhhhhh, Archie. Don’t let her know how much she is cared for. It would be too much for her to handle.
By kimberly
April 25, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
…your guy Barack HUSSEIN Obama….. After all we just cling to our guns and religion because we are bitter…
Hi Chuck. There you go again, making assumptions and starting rumors about me. I never met the man. Actually, I disagree with the guns/religion/bitter statement anyway. I think you hold on to those things because you’re SCARED, not bitter. Ditto your inability to write the man’s name without capitalizing the middle name to emphasize your fear of Mulsim power in America, even though he’s not a Muslim, and your own religion states one need only to accept/confess Christ as Savior to be a Christian — an act that, for some reason, it’s up to YOU to validate or invalidate with your own personal belief of the sincerity of a participant you never even met.
Totally different emotions, fear and bitterness, IMO. But again, that’s my opinion based on my observations, and I wouldn’t be so rude as to claim to know your heart.
By chuck
April 25, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
Haven’t had much time the past couple of days, but I have to say that the conversations were much improved until today. We’ll give it another shot next week. Have a nice weekend everybody.
By lozen
April 25, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
That was one comment. As usual there were simple and straight forward questions (as there should be in conversation) and the reply was snarky and ignorant. Hey Kimberly did you miss those simple and straight forward questions too? Maybe someone could point those out….
By chuck
April 25, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
Kimberly. I don’t claim to know what is in Barack HUSSEIN Obama’s heart. I don’t know how Christian or Muslim he is. That’s between him and God. I capitalize his middle name for 2 reasons. First, it irritates people. You know how I love to do that. Second, I do it, because I think it is strange that ever time I mention that that is his middle name, people start running away from it.
It really is his middle name you know.
See ya’ll next week.
By lozen
April 25, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
I capitalize his middle name for 2 reasons. First, it irritates people. You know how I love to do that. Second, I do it, because I think it is strange that ever time I mention that that is his middle name, people start running away from it.
Well…. Isn’t that special?
By Archie
April 25, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I am old and wise, young and stupid, strong and weak, good and bad … and all that other human stuff! You’re welcome to the compliment because I think you have something to say and don’t be afraid to say something to these young ladies. I would have done the same thing you did if I saw the young lady in orange but yes I do think young men and women read this blog for advice. Remember this, I did vote for Hillary and I am a black man and I don’t dislike men or women. I do have a daughter and I don’t chastise young ladies to their face about their style of dress but so many women off the blog talk about appropiateness of dress, and other behavior that I was trying to get Lozen,Kimberly, or any of the other women to address it. Weeks ago I addressed the emotionalism of blacks toward Barack Obama and it’s obvious that I like blacks but the point is to make people aware of some issues. You can still do that and be feminist. Lozen you may be someone’s heroine and just getting some wisdom from you on a blog may be what some young lady needs to hear. I know that I have written on other blogs just to get somebody to see the value in voting,respecting men and women, etc. I genuinely believe that someone will take advice that they read on a blog because maybe this is the only place they can get free advice. It maybe one out of a hundred but thank goodness for that one.
By kimberly
April 25, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
Hi Archie! I’m sure there are things men suffer that women cannot fully understand as well. I’m sure y’all could point out examples of the double standard that affect men adversely, such as the draft in previous decades, and until recently, being wounded or killed in combat. (Save me the divorce stories, y’all; plenty of women get screwed over too.) I don’t think a woman is wrong for articulating inequities, but I do know that men laud a “good” woman who goes along with the status quo, forgives her man for his sins, and never complains about what she’s endured as a woman, bless her heart. And I DO believe it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference in the end. People will pursue what they really want, regardless of facts, right or wrong, or their belief systems, and to heck with the rest. In the end, yes, that’s how it works.
By Archie
April 25, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
Hi Kimberly I didn’t intend to get a debate going I just wanted the older women to talk to the younger women. Sometimes it’s hard for a parent to get their child to listen to advice even if it’s the same advice they will get somewhere else. I have never been thru divorce but I have learned somethings from reading blogs. I think I read on a blog that you have to seperated in the state of Georgia for 3 months before you can get a divorce well here in South Carolina you have to be seperated for a year. Also my spouse does complain about what she goes thru as a woman but she will not hesitate to tell it like it is even if it means criticizing another woman.
By kimberly
April 25, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Archie, I like HRC too, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like Obama. I do try to keep emotional perspective — it’s an election; it’s gonna get dirty. Not everyone has done that, and they take it all so personally. The important thing is to keep McKillEmAll and his short fuse out of the WH. It will be hard to have faith in the goodness or intelligence of America (I have a couple drops left) if that guy becomes our next finger on the button of global destruction.
By a regular who is lurking this week
April 25, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
If young ladies need to be taught how to dress it’s not my job. Unless you have a daughter who is a young lady ;-) it’s not your job.
That kind of flies in the face of Hillary’s “It takes a village” philosophy, dontcha think?
By k
April 25, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
Yes, Archie, I talk to my daughter AND her friends. They get the truth and good advice from me; I can’t account for what else they’re getting out there. {:-> Have a great weekend!