AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2008 > April > 19 > Entry
Should President Bush boycott the Olympic opening ceremonies?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
A big draw to my husband’s job transfer in 1995 was that we would be moving to a future Olympic city. Having the games in Atlanta was such an honor I made sure to be a part of it, even though I had just given birth. It’s troublesome that such a potentially unifying event — this year in China — is so often tinged with politics.
Yet when Hillary Clinton, John McCain and others transcend partisan politics in wanting President Bush to boycott the opening ceremonies, I sit up and take notice. It looks like many Americans are doing the same, following continued abuses in Darfur and increasingly alarming events in Tibet. Less than a year ago, a Zogby International poll showed that 39 percent of Americans felt that the IOC shouldn’t have awarded the Olympics to China, due to their poor human rights record. A recent poll shows that now 70 percent of respondents feel that way.
One might argue that what’s done is done, and we should keep political friction off the field. I couldn’t agree more. Yet the opening ceremonies are not the games themselves. They’re a country’s shining hour, the glitzy A-list party with a spotlight on the unique achievements of a hosting nation. Olympic propaganda — remember Hitler’s triumph in 1936? — is a particularly effective way for closed societies to “prove” to their citizens that their actions must be right with the world. So it’s telling that few outside the Chinese press still dub a protest-plagued torch run with the P.R. manufactured tagline: “a journey of friendship, peace and harmony.”
Some have suggested that Bush should continue to state that he will attend the ceremony, while warning President Hu Juntao that growing political pressure is making it hard for him to stick to that plan. For all we know, the President is doing that right now, giving China an opportunity to save face while forcing change behind the scenes. I certainly hope so.
Over 300 gold medals will be handed out in Beijing this summer. We look forward to watching the U.S. garner our share of those, yet a gold in the commitment to human rights would be even more exciting.
Rebuttal
Anyone who argues that Bush should even consider boycotting the Opening Ceremonies doesn’t really understand China - and it is disturbing that everyone vying to be our next president seems to fall into that category. My father has worked in China for many years with the World Bank, and I’m the only one in my immediate family who hasn’t lived in China and doesn’t speak Chinese. But even with my indirect awareness, I reflexively winced when I first heard someone suggest the U.S. skip out to “send a message.”
It is precisely because the Opening Ceremonies are a country’s shining hour that a boycott would be the gravest insult to the proud Chinese people. The Chinese feel honored by the approaching Olympics, and have been preparing for it for seven years. As national security adviser Stephen Hadley recently explained, it’s not just important to “deal with Tibet issue,” but to recognize that “it’s also an issue of the Chinese people, who are very invested in the Olympics, who see it as a coming of age for China.”
People often forget that China is still a very developing country; most Chinese are still agrarian, and the country doesn’t expect telephone service to reach every village for another 12 years. Yes, in preparation for the Olympics the Communist government has made many hard-line decisions with which I deeply disagree. Yes, China’s handling of Tibet is extremely troubling, as are its many human-rights abuses. I am especially angered by persecution of millions in the underground church.
But it is also true that the country and its leaders have come a very long way in just a few decades - which is practically hasty for a civilization thousands of years old. Comparisons to Hitler and his systematic genocide are ludicrous. China’s leaders are at least trying to address issues that matter to its people and the world.
The whole point of the Olympics - from the moment the Opening Ceremonies start — is to set aside legitimate national differences and come together in a spirit of goodwill. Even the exiled Dalai Lama supports Beijing hosting the Olympics.
What we do about the Opening Ceremonies will indeed send a message to the people of China. Let’s hope it is the right one.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Well, I’m glad to see that Andrea is reading the blog, because she took this week’s topic directly from my blog two weeks ago:
By El Perro
April 10, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this
Does anyone have any opinions about the ongoing interruptions of the Olympic torch ceremonies? As much as I support autonomy for Tibet and increased human rights for all Chinese, I think the efforts to extinguish the Olympic torch are the wrong way to bring attention to the issues. Ditto for the threatened ban on the Opening Ceremonies. The Olympics are supposed to be a time for bringing people together. If China wasn’t qualified to host the Games, then the Olympic committee shouldn’t have awarded them the privilege of being hosts in the first place. It all reminds me of the 1980 boycott of the Games by Jimmy Carter, followed by a reciprocal ban by the Soviets in 1984. In both cases, the boycotts accomplished exactly nada, with the exception of screwing a bunch of athletes out of their opportunity to fulfill their lifelong dreams of competing on an international level. The Olympics should always be above political disputes, IMO. That is the whole purpose for holding them.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
Frankly, I think Andrea’s politics are a little, shall we say confused, in light of her support of “opening a dialogue with Raoul Castro”. Here’s a quote from her monologue that week:
Imposing preconditions, such as the release of political prisoners, before any dialogue has an emotional appeal but ultimately makes no sense. “To change the relationship, we have to talk.” McCoy advises. “The whole idea of preconditions is illogical. You have to talk to get movement going for the change that you want.”
So, in essence, Andrea thinks we should give Raoul Castro all the respect in the world and impose no preconditions to opening talks with Cuba. At the same time, she thinks we should try to humiliate the Chinese by refusing to honor their efforts to present a beautiful Opening Ceremony which should foster a good feeling worldwide. Sounds like muddled political correctness at its worst to me.
The bottom line is that for many small countries around the globe, like Tobago, the Opening Ceremony is their Olympics. Because their athletes have virtually no chance to win a medal, their only chance to be recognized on an international platform and to have their national anthem played is during the Opening Ceremonies. While some viewers think the OC is a boring “parade of nations”, for me it is always one of the highlights of the entire Olympic Games because it gives me a chance to see peoples from every country of the world marching proudly in their native costumes, carrying their flag proudly, and hearing their respective national anthems. For Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and now Andrea to suggest that this be all taken away from them, all canceled due to disagreements with the choice of the host country by the Olympic Committee, is beyond stupid to me. It’s borderline criminal.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
BTW, if anyone decides to talk about real issues this week while I’m away, I’d like to hear some feedback from the dim-bulb liberals regarding the disastrous political platforms advanced by Hillary and Obama. I’ll repeat my post from two weeks ago:
HEALTH CARE
Both say they have a goal of providing universal coverage and will try to lower costs to make it more affordable. The biggest difference is that Clinton would require everyone to get health insurance while Obama would not. Clinton says her plan is the only one that is truly universal because people won’t get coverage unless they are required to, similar to auto insurance. Obama says people will get insurance only if they can afford it.
I’m so glad that both Obama and Hillary “know what’s best for me” and are willing to use the point of a gun to extract money from me so that I am forced to pay for other people’s poor health due to their poor lifestyle choices. The comparison of health care insurance to auto insurance is completely invalid. Auto insurance is essentially liability insurance—it protects other people we might harm due to an auto accident. Poor lifestyle choices primarily affect the one making the poor choices.
HOUSING
Both want to help homeowners facing foreclosure, but Clinton’s plan includes a five-year freeze on interest rates for all subprime mortgages, which often go to borrowers with the poorest credit. Obama disagrees with the proposed freeze, saying it will drive up interest rates and keep other people from getting mortgages.
Both candidates also support legislation to help homeowners with “underwater mortgages” — meaning their homes are worth less than the mortgage. That legislation would provide government guarantees for their mortgages, but Clinton wants to go one step further than Obama. She wants the federal government to buy underwater mortgages and reduce payments to a level homeowners can afford.
Brilliant plan: Give anyone who purchased a home they couldn’t afford more of MY money so that they can continue to live in luxury while I continue to live below my means. The upshot of all these “bail-out” schemes is simple: No lender will ever give out a “sub-prime” mortgage ever again, so that poor people will NEVER have a chance at home ownership. Pure genius.
EDUCATION
Obama has called for something that irks teachers’ unions. He says educators should be rewarded based on performance as long as test scores aren’t the sole measure. Clinton says she would support merit pay, as long as it was based on school-wide performance and not the individual teacher.
At the college level, both want to provide more tuition relief through tax credits — up to $3,500 for Clinton and $4,000 for Obama. Obama also would require something Clinton does not. Students would have to perform 100 hours of community service to qualify each year.
Total crap. Teachers make good money already, all their whining about long hours aside. No other job I know of provides 4 months of vacation per year. I’m all for merit pay, but it needs to be linked to some objective measure, like test scores. Hillary’s plan would only serve to punish teachers who choose to work in “disadvantaged” schools. Group-think at its worst.
RETIREMENT
Both candidates say they would help low- and middle-income workers set up personal retirement accounts and provide government matches for the first $1,000 saved annually. But they would go about it differently.
Clinton would match 100 percent for families earning $60,000 or less, with smaller breaks for those earning up to $100,000. Obama would match 50 percent of the first $1,000 for families making less than $75,000.
A chicken in every pot! And just where does the money come from for all these “matching” schemes? Oh that’s right, from other people. Can anyone say “Income Redistribution”?
On Social Security, Clinton has refused to say publicly what options she would consider to keep the system afloat long term. Obama has said the best choice is to raise Social Security taxes on people earning more than $200,000.
How about fiscal responsibility across the board? No, too much work. Let’s just redistribute the wealth.
FOREIGN POLICY
The debate over whether the president should directly negotiate with rogue leaders has been one of the most prominent issue differences in the campaign. Obama says he would meet with heads of state in places like Cuba, Iran and North Korea. Clinton says those meetings could be used for propaganda and her first response will be outreach through other diplomatic channels.
Hmmm. An actual difference in their platforms. Hillary sound suspiciously “conservative” on this one.
IMMIGRATION
Another much-discussed division: whether to give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants. Obama says yes, for safety reasons. Clinton says no.
So Obama wants to reward illegal immigrants with a driver’s license, while Hillary pretends to be a conservative once again.
TAXES
Both candidates would repeal Bush’s tax cuts on wealthy Americans to pay for their programs. Obama also has a plan for across-the-board tax cuts for most workers. Clinton doesn’t support Obama’s plan because of it $80 billion cost and because it would apply to families with significant incomes. Obama’s campaign says it would begin a phase-out for households that earn around $150,000.
More income redistribution. If Hillary felt so bad about the “rich” not paying enough taxes, why doesn’t she offer to kick in more of that $109,000,000 that she and Bill earned the last 7 years? As populist liberals, there is nothing stopping them from voluntarily giving while not pressing a gun to the side of the head of the rest of us.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Good luck to all this week.
P.S. to Mara: Sorry, I did all I could do to muzzle Other Truth last week. Apparently the guy has no sense of self-awareness. Like JokesOn said, we’re all a little crazy; that can’t be helped. Crazy and self-aware is acceptable, but crazy and not self-aware is to be feared. Of course, I think Other Truth has plenty of company on this blog in that regard, but I won’t name any names for now…..
By Lynne
April 20, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Boycott China for what?? Is there a boycott of Walmart? Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up? Please, gimme a break. The Chinese should write “screw you” on every box that gets shipped over here, and see what happens….nothing. The first time I drive by a Walmart Supercenter and the parking lot is just half full, then I’ll seriously believe anyone really cares what China’s government is doing, until then, please quit it with the “boycott” mess.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
El Perro
What is wrong with you? I haven’t addressed Mara in months. If the very fact that I occasionally visit here and discuss issues with the only liberal that I believe can stage an informed argument, USinUK, while defending myself against your hysterical nonsense, then she has some serious mental problems, sort of like you.
You and chuck flame for hours about how each other are liars, constantly talk about whether or not each other should even be alive and them you set on your self built judges seat and insist that I am the problem here.
Get a clue, Pal.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Lynne
So Walmart is the only problem? Not Target, not K-Mart, not Best Buy, not Circuit City, not Bed Bath and Beyond, not any of the hundreds of other big box stores that live and die by selling Chinese made goods?
Just Walmart, huh?
You really need to stop listening to the Union produced propaganda.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
As far as this week’s subject:
Do we only want good relationships with brutal Islamic countries? Who are the people that Obama claims that he would be able to bring to the table? Aren’t they guilty of horrible atrocities?
It appears that the opposition to strengthening our relationship with a huge trade partner is based on the fact that Bush wants to do it. Bush is for it. We are against it.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Boycott China for what?? Is there a boycott of Walmart? Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up? Please, gimme a break. The Chinese should write “screw you” on every box that gets shipped over here, and see what happens….nothing. The first time I drive by a Walmart Supercenter and the parking lot is just half full, then I’ll seriously believe anyone really cares what China’s government is doing, until then, please quit it with the “boycott” mess.
Excellent points, Lynne. Like me, you apparently see the proposed boycott as nothing more than window dressing.
You really need to stop listening to the Union produced propaganda.
Other Truth—This is a perfect example of why you drive people away. Instead of agreeing or disagreeing with Lynne’s intelligent point, you metamorphose her argument into some kind of Union apologist position, which wasn’t her point at all. She merely used WalMart as an example.
As for truthfulness, I’ve never lied about anything on the blog. chuck, on the other hand, lies constantly.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
It appears that the opposition to strengthening our relationship with a huge trade partner is based on the fact that Bush wants to do it. Bush is for it. We are against it.
Another example of your shallow thinking, Other Truth. Liberals constantly discredit themselves by claiming that all conservatives get their ideas from Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. You do the same exact thing, only from the opposite perspective. Just last week you accused every liberal thinker of “repeating the DNC’s talking points”, etc. By doing that, you shut the door to any intelligent conversation, and in the act, besmirch all conservatives. Get it?
By Truth
April 20, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
El Perro
As for truthfulness, I’ve never lied about anything on the blog. chuck, on the other hand, lies constantly.
Yesterday, I went through every one of Mara’s posts. She posted here after I ahd posted earlier in the week. She also never said a single word about me, any post that I had made or anything about leaving for the week because of me or anything else. YOU are making her out to be a complete nut case, sort of like you.
But in spite of that, you have now posted several posts claiming that I, even though I hardly even posted last week ran her off.
I’m not sure what your definition of lying is, but I would call you a complete liar for your accusations against me.
And considering how you treat others, including me, how dare you even approach me complaining about a civil posts that I made to another poster.
You are not the policeman of this blog, especially considering your own outrageous and insulting behavior.
You have accused me of being an alcoholic when I have never had any problem with substance abuse of any kind. Perhaps this is why you became a Chiropractor instead of a real doctor.
Hopefully, while you are in California, you will chill out and slowly pull your head out of your as*. This will be a good week here, absent of your incessant whining.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
El Perro
Listen, you little twit. It is none of your business how I address anyone. I am tired of it.
You have no idea if chuck is lying. Have you ever met him? Do you know for a fact that he isn’t a teacher as you babble on and on and on about every day of every week.
We are all tired of your dozens of posts a day that do nothing but preach and lecture toward some while your repeated attempts at smoozing several of the women is as transparent as your own problems.
When are you leaving?
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Yesterday, I went through every one of Mara’s posts. She posted here after I ahd posted earlier in the week. She also never said a single word about me, any post that I had made or anything about leaving for the week because of me or anything else. YOU are making her out to be a complete nut case, sort of like you.
You mean when you posted under Other names, like “brooks”? You’re such a liar that you won’t even admit which posts are yours. You tried to claim earlier that you and “Other Jack” are two different people. Give me a break, will you?
And considering how you treat others, including me, how dare you even approach me complaining about a civil posts that I made to another poster.
The fact is, 90% of your posts contain insults. That wouldn’t be a problem if your insults were actually based on what the person said. Your retort to Lynne is a perfecdt example. She said, and I quote, “Is there a boycott of the many companies importing goods from China and selling them at an incredible mark-up”? You tried to insult her by replying, and I quote, “So Walmart is the only problem? Not Target, not K-Mart, not Best Buy, not Circuit City, not Bed Bath and Beyond, not any of the hundreds of other big box stores that live and die by selling Chinese made goods”?
Now, if you were really a man, and not, well, whatever you are, you would admit your error and apologize to Lynne. Unfortunately, this is only one of hundreds of times when you misread other’s posts, misquote them, then insult them based upon your own misreading and misquoting. Mara specifically said that she won’t blog when you are here because of this trend. And, frankly, I don’t blame her. Talking to you is like trying to reason with an Alzheimer’s patient.
By Truth
April 20, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
El Perro
If I were a real man? And you give me hell for insulting others.
So where is your apology to me for claiming that I ran Mara off, liar. BTW, that’s your new name: liar. Sums it up quite nicely. And the difference between you and chuck is that you call chuck a liar the same uninformed ignorant way you called me an alcoholic, but I proved you are a liar and I did it with ease.
You are such a blathering idiot. Now spend the rest of this glorious day setting around sulking. I have a woman to meet and some serious fun to have.
I’ll have a drink and a hug, just for you. (BTW, I CAN have a drink because I have control of myself, unlike you.)
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Easy and short answer on the actual topic: No. If anything should have been done the committee should not have awarded the games to china to begin with.
I’m so glad that both Obama and Hillary “know what’s best for me” and are willing to use the point of a gun to extract money from me so that I am forced to pay for other people’s poor health due to their poor lifestyle choices.
Saw a good public television show that went to 7 countries that had universal health care. Each and every one of them did indeed have superior care as compared to the US; and it was cheaper to run (3-5% administration costs where as the US has 16% and rising). The best one was…Taiwan, which took the best parts of each of the current systems.
The best systems had a no opt-out option (otherwise it slowly runs out of money and comes out of taxes anyways - like with our system), and was paid on a sliding scale system (the more you make the more you pay). All insurance companies had to charge the same amount and was based on a yearly (maybe every 5 years) number. They compete for customers by offering extra options that you can buy into.
It is actually very important, for the individual as well as a nation, to cover the jobless. The less one makes the more probable they will get ill; especially if out of work.
I understand, dog, that you do not want to pay for the poor, but that exact mentality is what is going to lead this country to be fill with only the rich having full health care and the poor having nothing but last minute care which is more expensive than paying for them to begin with. The problem with that logic is also the belief that in our system you do not pay for them: you pay, but only when they are past preventative measure and then it costs way more than it would have to treat them earlier.
Besides, the mentality of “I am gonna get whats mine and leave the rest to fend for themselves” is counter to any society that states that it is for All The People. You will have two groups in the end: the elitist and the indigent.
I am going to ignore the ranting going on….same crap that was promised not to continue. Can anyone say restraint??
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
You have no idea if chuck is lying. Have you ever met him? Do you know for a fact that he isn’t a teacher as you babble on and on and on about every day of every week.
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Working out of country for next two weeks, maybe three. So will be rarely posting.
This is my third “tour” (no, not military of course) and so far what I have see in eastern europe and the far east bolsters what I already knew: The US does have many things right, or on the right track, but that does not mean we have everything right as so many “patriots” would demand.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
So where is your apology to me for claiming that I ran Mara off, liar.
She specifically said that she was tired of you “twisting her words”. But, since you’re not a man, you can’t own up to that.
I’ll have a drink and a hug, just for you.
Drink, and hug away. Lord knows you need it.
And BTW, your quip about chiropractors not being real doctors only reveals your total ignorance about the real truth in life. Maybe if your friend who had major back surgery and who is now facing a lifetime of pain had tried a chiropractor first, she may not have needed surgery. I saved hundreds of people from debilitating surgery in my career. Your assertion a few months ago that seeing a chiro somehow creates a need for continuing care is pure bunk. People return for care because they enjoy feeling good. If your friends incorporated some posture exercises, they might not need to go as often. I’ll leave you with a quote attributed to Thomas Edison:
“The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest his patient in the care of the human frame, in diet and in the cause and prevention of disease.”
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
You tried to claim earlier that you and “Other Jack” are two different people. Give me a break, will you?
Notice he changed his name and hid as soon as he made a pact to be civil? Guess he just could not perform.
By JokesOn
April 20, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
Take it easy dog, off to the airport.
Do not let the fools get to you.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
I understand, dog, that you do not want to pay for the poor, but that exact mentality is what is going to lead this country to be fill with only the rich having full health care and the poor having nothing but last minute care which is more expensive than paying for them to begin with. The problem with that logic is also the belief that in our system you do not pay for them: you pay, but only when they are past preventative measure and then it costs way more than it would have to treat them earlier.
My concern, JokesOn, is not for “paying for the poor”, as you somehow believe. I’ve given tons of money to charity over the years, including Operation Smile and Medicina Sin Fronteras (Doctors Without Borders). My concern is based on human nature. Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain. Frankly, I don’t believe people will take better care of themselves just because the government is involved—i.e. the preventative care you speak of. Preventative care is available right now for a very low cost. If people choose not to utilize it, they have only themselves to blame.
As for your concern about a “two-tiered society”, the bottom line is you have two choices: (1) A society in which everyone is “equal”, which means equally near the bottom, or (2) A tiered society in which “all boats rise with the rising tide”.
I don’t mind debating health care with you, but please don’t mischaracterize my position. Maybe my tongue-in-cheek quotes have caused you to doubt my compassion, but lack of compassion isn’t what drives my views. In the most compassionate scenario, people take responsibility for their own health care, and doctors are honest and charge reasonable fees. The two biggest problems in our current system are lack of awareness and responsibility of patients, and greedy, dishonest doctors.
By El Perro
April 20, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
I am going to ignore the ranting going on….same crap that was promised not to continue. Can anyone say restraint??
Do not let the fools get to you.
Wise advice, JokesOn. I hope to be a better man one day. I’d like to believe I want the best for everyone, and that my motivation for criticizing chuck and Other Truth is to challenge them to be better people, but it’s very likely that my motivations are darker. Self-analysis of our own motivations is likely the trickiest proposition in life, because we are all ultimately selfish by definition.
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
If what you say is true, JokesOn, that would be one of the funniest things I ever learned. It would make sense, however, based on all the “credibility stretching” tales that chuck tells. Last week he claimed that he “campaigned” door-to-door for Nixon at age 10. What a tale!
Take it easy dog, off to the airport.
Have a great time, buddy. Hopefully your ambassadorship will help re-establish some cred for the US in the Eastern European nations you visit. While I do support many of Bush’s decisions, his lack of diplomacy has cost us dearly. Wish me luck in Vegas!
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this
My concern is based on human nature. Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain.
In many other areas I would agree, but when it comes to health care I cannot fathom people going to doctors and getting treatment just for kicks and because they can. I also think your position that there are only two stations people will have, all at the bottom or heavily stratified is overly simplistic. There are societies that show that there can be a balance.
As for preventative health care being cheap and available, I have not experienced that. I have some chronic pain from a lower back injury and when I was out of a job I had no way of getting meds or physical therapy that would keep it in check. After 3 weeks, I was nearly immobilized, making it that much harder to get re-employed. If someone else was in my shoes, coupled by a family or other complications, I could easily see them going into a serious downward spiral.
I feel that if you play these scenarios out that you will see that we can pay a lot at the middle/end of peoples illnesses or a fraction of the price up front.
I agree with wanting people to be more responsible, etc; but wanting something does not necessarily make it come true. We have to deal with where people actually are, not as if they are already there and if not say “too bad.”
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
FWIW … Perro, I’m sorta with you on this one … I definitely think that the US should participate in the Olympics and that we should have an envoy at the opening ceremony. I do think that more can be done though open and frank discussion than by shutting out our opponents (god knows, Castro stuck around long enough!)
As for Andrea’s citing the Berlin Olympics, 2 words: Jesse Owens. His 4 Olympic gold medals showed up Hitler in a way that no boycott ever could.
Lastly, Jokesy is right - the time to boycott Beijing was before the Olympic committee made the decision. The best thing to do now is to let the athletes get on with it!!
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
Whenever you make something for free, all of a sudden people want lots of it, which leads directly to health care rationing, which is a reality of every socialized health care system, e.g. Canada and Britain.
oh, dear … the old “they’re going to ration my health care” battlecry. honey, what do you think health insurance companies do??? hmmmm??? most have listed doctors (you have to choose from a list included in the plan) … you’re covered for only 1 physical a year … you’re covered for only 1 pap a year (although, the insurance companies want to change that to 1 every 3 years) … you’re covered for only 1 mammogram every 3-5 years if you’re under 50 unless your doctor finds something … I could go on …
wake. up. health care in the US IS rationed. AND you get the dubious honor of having the most expensive health care system of all the industrialized nations for this rationed health care. OH, and lest we forget, you also get the worst care for the most expensive rationed health care.
yeah. boy-howdy. I can see why you love this system.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
In many other areas I would agree, but when it comes to health care I cannot fathom people going to doctors and getting treatment just for kicks and because they can.
From my experiences in health care, I can vouch that there are people who build their lives around going to the doctor, if only to get attention. It is possible that there is NO system which will put a check on that, but at least having to pay something out of pocket limits it.
As for preventative health care being cheap and available, I have not experienced that. I have some chronic pain from a lower back injury and when I was out of a job I had no way of getting meds or physical therapy that would keep it in check. After 3 weeks, I was nearly immobilized, making it that much harder to get re-employed. If someone else was in my shoes, coupled by a family or other complications, I could easily see them going into a serious downward spiral.
Preventative health care would mean avoiding the back pain in the first place through injury avoidance, regular exercise, and proper diet. Once you have a chronic problem, then certainly low-cost maintenance care makes sense. In all scenarios, however, there is much a person can do on their own. Professional care is not always required.
I agree with wanting people to be more responsible, etc; but wanting something does not necessarily make it come true. We have to deal with where people actually are, not as if they are already there and if not say “too bad.”
This is definitely the gray area between our positions. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” I would say rather than going to the extreme of making health care a quasi-Constitutional right, we should spend more time teaching children to be healthy. That means getting the candy and soda machines out of school, re-instituting recess at the elementary level, and making “health” class in HS just that—instruction on being healthy. But what I see is the opposite: Unhealthy behavior is basically encouraged at every level. The result? Somewhere around 20% of young children are already morbidly obese.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this
oh, dear … the old “they’re going to ration my health care” battlecry. honey, what do you think health insurance companies do??? hmmmm??? most have listed doctors (you have to choose from a list included in the plan) … you’re covered for only 1 physical a year … you’re covered for only 1 pap a year (although, the insurance companies want to change that to 1 every 3 years) … you’re covered for only 1 mammogram every 3-5 years if you’re under 50 unless your doctor finds something … I could go on …
wake. up. health care in the US IS rationed. AND you get the dubious honor of having the most expensive health care system of all the industrialized nations for this rationed health care. OH, and lest we forget, you also get the worst care for the most expensive rationed health care.
yeah. boy-howdy. I can see why you love this system.
My health care isn’t rationed in any way, form, or fashion, USinUK, because—put your seat belt on—I pay for it myself out of pocket. If you have been following my posts, my strong opinion is that the third-party payor system is the real culprit in the US. Because MDs and other health care providers don’t have to look the consumer in the eye and charge a fair price that they can afford, fraud is endemic to the system. As such, I don’t believe that further systemization of fraud is the way to go. I advocate returning health insurance to its rightful place as a hedge against catastrophic loss.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this
why are the 2 mutually exclusive?? yes, I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our children to be healthy in schools, we should remove the candy/soda machines AND we need to reinstate recess and PE.
however, that only addresses part of the problem. people will still need to go to the doctor - you can be the right weight and still have high cholesterol and blood pressure. you can have good cholesterol and blood pressure and still get cancer. you can be perfectly healthy and have a car accident. ALL of the chronic and urgent care needed for the above is expensive enough to drive the average family into bankruptcy with the current health system.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
The bottom line, USinUK and JokesOn, is that our “model” for health care is flawed. MDs are basically glorified drug peddlers. “Better living through chemistry”. If you bother to do some research, it is estimated that a high percentage of drugs and surgery are either ineffective and/or unnecessary. Health doesn’t come from a bottle, not even a vitamin bottle. Health comes from God, pure and simple. As such, the more we choose to align ourselves with God’s Way—i.e. good food, exercise, good posture, etc., the healthier we become. My opinion on this topic is not “religiously” motivated, but is based on eight years of college courses on science and health care. So, while you guys want to find ways to spread the costs of the current, erroneous system around, I want to change it entirely, beginning with proper education of young people regarding the truth about health and health care.
The best study I ever saw found that the longest living people were the ones who visited the doctor the least. So much for your “preventative health care” argument. Does that mean that these folks simply didn’t take care of themselves?? Heck no. It means they took care of themselves. In my own case, my lifetime medical expenses are just a few thousand dollars, almost half of which I had to spend on STD testing due to sleeping with a liberal.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this
My health care isn’t rationed in any way, form, or fashion, USinUK, because—put your seat belt on—I pay for it myself out of pocket
Perro - we’ve had this discussion before - if you’re paying out of your own pocket for doctor visits and treatment, then you’re paying at least 2 or 3 times the amount insurance companies would pay for the same visit and the same treatment. (in other words … if you’re paying $150 to visit your GP for an annual physical, then BC/BS or another insurance company would have negotiated the $50-75 for the same visit)
so, while your care may not be “rationed”, you’re paying top dollar for it.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
why are the 2 mutually exclusive?? yes, I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our children to be healthy in schools, we should remove the candy/soda machines AND we need to reinstate recess and PE.
Maybe the two aren’t specifically mutually exclusive, but I’m not hearing any legitimate cries to improve the health of our youths—only cries to take more money out of my pocket to pay for the lard-asses who don’t take care of themselves in the first place. In your case, USinUK, this is the first time to my knowledge that you have even paid lip service to the real “health care crisis” in America—obesity.
however, that only addresses part of the problem. people will still need to go to the doctor - you can be the right weight and still have high cholesterol and blood pressure. you can have good cholesterol and blood pressure and still get cancer. you can be perfectly healthy and have a car accident. ALL of the chronic and urgent care needed for the above is expensive enough to drive the average family into bankruptcy with the current health system.
BP checks and cholesterol screening costs pennies. That’s not the problem. The problem is what do you do about it once you discover a problem? Oh that’s right, take more drugs. MDs are there for one reason: to sell drugs.
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this
From my experiences in health care, I can vouch that there are people who build their lives around going to the doctor, if only to get attention.
Ahh yes, the top two countries that provide universal health care also had medical cards and if someone made a large number of visits in a short amount of time they would have to meet with a provider to see what they needed differently including whether they were “seeking attention.”
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
Perro - we’ve had this discussion before - if you’re paying out of your own pocket for doctor visits and treatment, then you’re paying at least 2 or 3 times the amount insurance companies would pay for the same visit and the same treatment. (in other words … if you’re paying $150 to visit your GP for an annual physical, then BC/BS or another insurance company would have negotiated the $50-75 for the same visit)
Not true at all, USinUK. I don’t pay more for my health care than those who have insurance; I pay less. It’s called bargaining. Plus, I don’t need that BS that is called an annual physical. I put my efforts into staying healthy, not running to the doctor several times a year. Why?? Becasue, frankly, I know more about health care than the average MD does. Yes, they know more about what drug Merck tells them to sell to people, but I don’t consider that to be legitimate health care. If you bother to read up on treatment of back problems by MDs vs. chiropractors, you might get a clue.
Once again, from Thomas Edison: “The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest his patient in the care of the human frame, in diet and in the cause and prevention of disease”.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Ahh yes, the top two countries that provide universal health care also had medical cards and if someone made a large number of visits in a short amount of time they would have to meet with a provider to see what they needed differently including whether they were “seeking attention.”
Big Brother to the rescue! ; > }
My biggest concern of turning my health care is hidden in your statement: control. Maybe you are comfortable with letting someone else make your health care decisions for you, including determining if you were “crazy” or not, but I’m just not going to do it. I’m voting McCain.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Another greatly under-reported cause of poor health is poor posture—specifically the poor posture which develops from sitting at a computer all day long. When your neck juts forward to a significant degree, your life span is shortened significantly. There was a study done in Britain with about 4000 women several years back. Those who had a reversed cervical curve lived almost 10 years less.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
Catch you guys in a little while. I’ve got to pack for my trip. I figure I’ll stop by chuck’s gas station and let him check my oil and wash my windshield for me.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
In your case, USinUK, this is the first time to my knowledge that you have even paid lip service to the real “health care crisis” in America—obesity
well, okay. let’s talk about the fatties, if that’s what you’d like. but don’t stop with the schools … let’s talk about the restaurants that serve GINORMOUS portions - we’re talking 2 or 3 times the recommended serving size of protein when you get a sandwich, much less getting a dinner-size entree.
let’s talk about 7-11 serving LITRE-size Big-Gulps of coke and other sugary sodas.
let’s talk about the restaurants that aren’t fast-food but aren’t “nice” restaurants (Outback, Applebees, Friday’s, etc) - the ones who serve fried, cheese-and-bacon laden, ridiculously portioned meals. yeah, they have salads, but they all have cheese, sour cream, fried chicken, etc - so, really, are just as bad as the burgers.
let’s talk about the number of families that don’t cook anymore - or, if the family does have dinner together, they’re all sitting around the TV when they’re eating it.
and, lastly, let’s talk about the decline and fall of WALKING anywhere. good grief, sidewalks are more endangered than the polar bear.
again, I agree that schools need to really do some major changes, but let’s be honest here - they’re just small potatoes (so to speak) when it comes to the overall obesity problem in the US.
(and, for the sake of disclosure - my BMI is 23 - I need to shift about 12 pounds)
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
let’s talk about the restaurants that serve GINORMOUS portions - we’re talking 2 or 3 times the recommended serving size of protein when you get a sandwich, much less getting a dinner-size entree.
let’s talk about 7-11 serving LITRE-size Big-Gulps of coke and other sugary sodas.
let’s talk about the restaurants that aren’t fast-food but aren’t “nice” restaurants (Outback, Applebees, Friday’s, etc) - the ones who serve fried, cheese-and-bacon laden, ridiculously portioned meals. yeah, they have salads, but they all have cheese, sour cream, fried chicken, etc - so, really, are just as bad as the burgers.
Sorry, I don’t place the blame for poor health choices on restaurants. I put the “onus” on the consumers who CHOOSE to patronize those places in the first place. Or maybe you think Big Brother should FORCE restaurants to serve only “healthy: foods and reasonable portions. If so, you have a lot in common with that fascist, chuck. Sorry, I believe in “Caveat Emptor”—Buyer Beware. Now schools are a different matter. Kids aren’t wise enough to make good choices. That’s why I say limit their choices while they are in school.
let’s talk about the number of families that don’t cook anymore - or, if the family does have dinner together, they’re all sitting around the TV when they’re eating it.
and, lastly, let’s talk about the decline and fall of WALKING anywhere. good grief, sidewalks are more endangered than the polar bear.
I agree—that’s what we need to be talking about, not about how I should pay for the lard-asses.
(and, for the sake of disclosure - my BMI is 23 - I need to shift about 12 pounds)
Well, if you’re going to shift your weight, I hope you shift it upward. ; > } You know I love you, USinUK, no matter what your BMI is. I just don’t want to pay for your health care, that’s all.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this
Perro -
Well, if you’re going to shift your weight, I hope you shift it upward
gah - no! I’m talking about shifting it onto some unsuspecting passerby (oh, that it could be that easy!)
as for the restaurants I mentioned - I think it’s more a matter of educating the public what a normal portion size is, how ungodly the fat content is, etc … unfortunately, though, I think the American mindset is “more food for my money” regardless of the cost to their health.
lastly, the only cervix I know if is most definitely NOT in my neck. ;-)
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
My biggest concern of turning my health care is hidden in your statement: control. Maybe you are comfortable with letting someone else make your health care decisions for you, including determining if you were “crazy” or not, but I’m just not going to do it.
I agree with the slippery slope, but you are worried that without control people will abuse the system. This does not translate to big bro determining if you are crazy.
Plus, with our current system big bro decides who and how much coverage they get anyways; not including the lobbyist that decide whats best for us via their bottom lines and profits.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
USinUk
Couldn’t find The Station Agent so my friend put it on her NetFlicks picks. It may be a while, but I’ll see it.
I think most people agree that Bush should attend the opening ceremony. I couldn’t believe that China was chosen. I think the I.O.C. is still mad at us for just having too much fun with the 96 games.
Have a great week. I am having another week of lots and lots of work. I’ll check back occasionally.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
gah - no! I’m talking about shifting it onto some unsuspecting passerby (oh, that it could be that easy!)
I’ll volunteer to take on 4 of those lbs. Now you only need two more volunteers!
as for the restaurants I mentioned - I think it’s more a matter of educating the public what a normal portion size is, how ungodly the fat content is, etc … unfortunately, though, I think the American mindset is “more food for my money” regardless of the cost to their health.
Do you REALLY think it’s just a matter of “education”, dear? Puh-leeze. Common sense alone tells us what is healthy. And it’s not even a case of not enough common sense. It’s lack of discipline and self-love that feeds the problem—literally.
lastly, the only cervix I know if is most definitely NOT in my neck. ;-)
I’ll try to leave that comment alone before I get into too much trouble. ; > }
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this
El Perro the liar
She specifically said that she was tired of you “twisting her words”. But, since you’re not a man, you can’t own up to that.
She said that weeks ago. You specifically said that she left last week because I ran her off. You are not only a liar, you are a mental case, inventing problems for others so you can look magnanimous.
It apparently doesn’t bother you that you are ready to make a woman who has done nothing wrong into some sort of paranoid nutcase, just to invent a phantom problem for me.
You mean when you posted under Other names, like “brooks”?
I have no idea who “brooks” is. But it is good that I now have you chasing shadows: yet another sign of your “problem.”
Maybe if your friend who had major back surgery and who is now facing a lifetime of pain had tried a chiropractor first, she may not have needed surgery.
My friend has a degenerative spine disease, hardly something that someone who went to night school for two years would be qualified to treat with an “adjustment”. She had gone to a chiropractor for years and they kept adjusting her and finally injured her. She was able to buy a very nice house with her settlement from the chiropractor, but as she says, she would rather had gone to a MD and had gotten treatment years earlier instead of “adjustments”.
Be proud of what you do, but the reality is that I will be going to someone who has worked like a dog to get into medical school where they studied for 8 to 12 more years instead of someone who had gone to a two year school who’s only qualifications are a GED and a checkbook.
Now before you start whining about me “starting something”, you started this yesterday before anyone else posted here.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
JokesOn
He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
Gas station attendant. I see. So he is one of those guys that run out to your car, check your oil and pump your gas.
Have you opened your eyes for the past 30 years? Except for a very few stations, those jobs went away in the 1970s
So you come on here and joke with El Perro the Liar about how you “know” what he does. You have no idea other than the fact that chuck regularly soundly verbally slaps you around at will. And because of this you both decide that he must be a service station attendant, a job that hasn’t existed for 30 years.
Sometimes you both post good, sound arguments, but your temperament is that of a couple of 12 year old boys and you apparently don’t care who you hurt or what you say about others, just to satisfy your adolescent twinges.
Now the two of you will have something to gossip about all week. I’ll try to find the time to drop back in and say hello.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
I agree with the slippery slope, but you are worried that without control people will abuse the system. This does not translate to big bro determining if you are crazy.
Plus, with our current system big bro decides who and how much coverage they get anyways; not including the lobbyist that decide whats best for us via their bottom lines and profits.
JokesOn—Please reread my comments—I don’t support the third party-payor system in any way, form, or fashion, whether privately run or run by the government. Insurance was invented to provide a hedge against catastrophic losses, no more and no less. When you start to include routine costs into “insurance coverage”, it no longer is insurance. At that point it is socialism, collectivism, whatever you to call it. The only system which makes sense to me is to restore consumerism to health care, which means insurance only for catastrophic illnesses like cancer or heart disease.
Put in another way, which do you take better care of: a rental car, or your own car??? Once you remove responsibility from a system, including health care, people start treating it the way they treat a rental car.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
truth -
Couldn’t find The Station Agent so my friend put it on her NetFlicks picks. It may be a while, but I’ll see it.
daaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!
I was looking forward to your rave reviews (although, now I may be building it up too much, raising your expectations too high, so that the movie can only be a let-down).
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
perro -
Do you REALLY think it’s just a matter of “education”, dear? Puh-leeze.
well, as you say, we can’t legislate the fat content at dishes served at restaurants. the only thing we can do is to better educate the public and hope that, person-by-person, they start to make better choices.
the problem with relying on “common sense” - it’s not common enough!! most people eat the way they ate when they were kids - if their parents ate a lot of fried foods … or foods laden with cheese and sour cream … or foods that are nothing but carbs and butter, then they’ll repeat the pattern. if their mothers didn’t cook, then chances are they won’t either. if they weren’t raised to sit at the dinner table and eat, then they’ll be parked in front of the TV, too.
we’ve got a couple of generations of bad habits to break - schools are a good start, but the problem goes WAY beyond that! the US (and the UK, for that matter) has gotten a LOT more sedentary than it was when I was a kid - THAT is the biggest problem.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Be proud of what you do, but the reality is that I will be going to someone who has worked like a dog to get into medical school where they studied for 8 to 12 more years instead of someone who had gone to a two year school who’s only qualifications are a GED and a checkbook.
Give me strength, JokesOn. The fools have come out of the woodwork.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure why I’m wasting my time speaking to you, Other Truth, as it appears your mind is already made up without actually knowing any FACTS, but here goes: (1) The education requirements to enter chiropractic college are virtually the same as they are for medical school. In my own personal case, I turned down Med school in favor of something I actually believed in. (2) There are good and bad people in every profession. I don’t know the facts about your friend’s malpractice sase—maybe it was a legitimate case, maybe it was simply the case of a slick lawyer extracting a settlement from an honest doctor who was only trying to help someone in bad shape. (3) Malpractice rates for chiropractors are approximately 1/40th of the cost for similar coverage for MDs. So, in your blind appeal to authority, you may somehow think that medical care is safer than chiropractic care, but you’re wrong.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
BTW, Other Fool, in the end, chiropractors receive far more education in anatomy, x-ray, etc. in their 4 years of chiropractic college than the average MD ever does. Why?? Because the MDs spend most of their time in school learning about pharmacology—drugs. In the case of your friend, please explain to me how any drug in the world will “cure” DJD—Degenerative Joint Disease. Which, BTW, is a misnomer. It’s not really a “disease”, it’s a “conditon”.
But again, I have no idea why I’m trying to educate you. You made up your mind to remain an idiot your whole life a long time ago.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
USinUK
Before I go, the quirky little video store in little five, where I used to find everything is now closed. They also had great movie posters from every era. Great place, or at least it was.
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
My kids used to call Saturday mornings their boot camp. When they were young, whenever I was in town, I would always have some hike or bike ride or trip to the lake to go swimming planned. It was hard because they wanted to stay in and watch cartoons.
We also always packed their lunch and my ex would really make great lunches for them. She found some book about great kid’s lunches and they loved them.
My son is now in pretty good shape, but he lives in the Mid west and is just now getting out and my daughter has turned into a jock, still taking marshal arts class and beating the crap out of the guys in her class. (You go girl)
The parents have to do it. The schools are dropping the ball, again.
Now, gotta run. Have a good one.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
P.S. Other Truth—If yo notice, I give credit where credit is due. Your recommendation to go to Showcase for photographic equipment was right on the money.
The biggest difference between you and me is that I know when I know something, and I know when I don’t know something. And, when I don’t know something, I’m not afraid to ask someone who does. You, on the other hand, would rather rely on anecdotal evidence, much of which is wrong, in your sweeping condemnation about something which you have no personal knowledge about.
Again, we’re all crazy. The ones who know that are far less dangerous than those who try to convince themselves otherwise.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this
Truth (and Perro) -
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
I can’t TELL you how much I agree with this statement. I think the eradication of recess was one of the worst mistakes our schools have made - not just because kids need their exercise. Also, kids (especially when they’re younger) need to run around and get their ya-yas out so that they can better focus on their lessons.
As for school lunches - yuk. I have a life-long aversion to lima beans because of cafeteria lunches. Even the smell of them makes me gag. But, there have to be better choices than pizza, burgers and fries. And juice?? have you checked out the sugar content on most juices?? Kids should have a good protein drink like milk - it’ll satisfy them longer than juice which will just boost their sugars only to have them crash in an hour.
Jamie Oliver started a school lunch revolution here - it’s making progress BUT (you’re not going to believe this) a lot of “loving parents” are meeting their kids at the school gates at lunch and passing them burgers and fries. Oliver said that he couldn’t believe that parents were so resistent to healthy lunches until he met with one who was giving her toddler coca cola in a bottle.
THAT’s when he realized the problem needs to be addressed in schools, but that it’s MUCH bigger than that.
By USinUK
April 21, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
perro -
Again, we’re all crazy. The ones who know that are far less dangerous than those who try to convince themselves otherwise.
HA!!!
great corollary to my motto: We’re all freaks in our own little ways.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
el Perro the Liar
I don’t know the facts about your friend’s malpractice sase
No you don’t, but you were more than willing to claim that if she had adjustments, she probably wouldn’t have needed the surgery, sort of like the way you claimed I was an alcoholic and chuck lied about teaching. You are talking out of your butt to try and make yourself look good.
When her spinal disease started, she did as you say and went to her chiropractor. but their adjustments stopped working. She just hurt more and more, but instead of recognizing that they were in way over their heads and refer her to a bone or spinal specialist, they just kept adjusting and trying more and more radical adjustments. After one particularly brutal session, she couldn’t get out of bed because her lower body didn’t work. They had injured her spine so much that it was swollen and she had temporary paralysis.
Once she could get out of bed, she didn’t want to sue anyone, but when she started getting threatening phone calls about not paying the bill for the visit in which they had injured her, she called an attorney. The settlement was in the millions.
You are right that there are good and bad in all professions. You may want to keep that in mind before you again claim that all MDs just prescribe more and more drugs.
To compare schools like Life College to Tulane or Emory or any other medical school is just silly.
There is a string of Chiropractic clinics in Atlanta that have been here for years and years that is about to be closed because of legal problems of the owners. Seems they have been breaking lots of laws in taking kickbacks from ambulance chasers. It will hit the news before the end of summer.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
By El Perro, 8:49:
This is definitely the gray area between our positions. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” I would say rather than going to the extreme of making health care a quasi-Constitutional right, we should spend more time teaching children to be healthy. That means getting the candy and soda machines out of school, re-instituting recess at the elementary level, and making “health” class in HS just that—instruction on being healthy. But what I see is the opposite: Unhealthy behavior is basically encouraged at every level. The result? Somewhere around 20% of young children are already morbidly obese.
Other Truth, 10:47:
Health prevention is a huge problem, but our schools seem to be hurting, not helping. Coke machines instead of juice, horrible choices for food in the lunch rooms and almost no time in the school playground.
Is it my imagination, or is there an echo in here? Seems to happen every time Other Truth and chuck post anything of substance.
Now, gotta run. Have a good one.
Come back when you actually have something original to say, will you? Something hopefully based on facts, and not just your uninformed opinion.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
Too many posts, too little time to respond.
1) Of course, in light of the recent human rights atrocities in Tibet, President Bush should boycott the Olympics. I love this statemnt:
If anything should have been done the committee should not have awarded the games to china to begin with.
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO. The crackdown in Tibet happened in the last 3 months. China should be punished for that. The best way to punish communists…especially Asian communists…is to make them “lose face” or embarass them. We should absolutely tell them that we will not be attending the Olympics at all if they don’t immediately get out of Tibet. Additionally, we should take steps to remove them from MFN status until they correct the atrocities that are occurring.
2) He may not, but I actually do know. The guy is a gas station attendant, man; not going to blow his cover on where though.
I’ve told you before jokeson. Feel free to “out” me as a “gas station attendent”. I did work in a gas station as a young kid, maybe 11-12 years old. My Dad worked in one part time for awhile while he was on the fire department and I made some money in tips working with him on Saturdays and in the summer. Haven’t worked in one since then so feel free.
Anybody notice how jokeson and dog are leaving town at the same time…again?
Dogturd, Not only as a 10 year old, but as a 14 year old in 1972. Voted for my first Republican Presidential candidate in 1976 when I turned 18. Voted for Gerald Ford, though half-heartedly. Campaigned “Religiously” for Reagan in ‘80 and ‘84 as well as working for many local and statewide Republican Candidates throughout the years. Working for Nixon in ‘68 was tough because my Dad was a good ol’ Southern Dem. He ended up voting for Nixon though because he couldn’t stomach the thought of Humphrey and he didn’t believe Wallace could win.
Universal Healthcare AGAIN?!?!?
usinuk, In most HMO plans the list of physicians is HUGE. I know in the State Merit plan, there are many options to choose from and it includes both BCBS plans and UHC plans. In my UHC plan, pretty much every primary care physician in my area is on the plan as are most of the specialists and hospitals. Is there a chance that your physician won’t be on there? Sure there is, but MOST hmo’s offer a “choice” plan that allows you to nominate your physician and if he agrees to the terms you can still use him as your primary care doctor. The price differential for a choice plan vs. a straight hmo is miniscule considering that you get to keep your own doctor.
I read an article in the past couple of days about a recent report on medicare fraud. Here’s one of the quotes from the lead prosecutor on medicare fraud:
“What we find is that the adjudication process of claims is almost entirely automated, and we don’t annually review claims with many of our carriers the way a private insurance company would,” said Ogrosky. “So we’re trusting in the healthcare community, our doctors that care for the elderly and the disabled. We’re trusting that they’re telling the truth.”
This system of “trust” resulted in over $40 Billion dollars of fraud. One electric wheelchair owned by a single fraudulent company was billed to Medicare over 1000 times making the cost to taxpayers for that wheelchair $5,000,000. A company that has to make a profit will not allow that kind of fraud. That’s why private healthcare works better than government healthcare.
Another fraud being perptrated by the media is in the REPORTING of the number of uninsured people in America. Of the so-called “50 million” uninsured Americans over HALF make above the median U.S. income of $46,000 per year. Has it occurred to those of you who want Universal healthcare that there are millions of Americans without HEALTH INSURANCE BECAUSE they CHOOSE other priorities for themselves.
I thought you people on the left were pro-choice. If someone chooses to spend their money on things other than health insurance shouldn’t they have to live with that choice? It seems that ya’ll are only pro-choice when it comes to the life of an unborn baby. When it comes to anything else, you want the government to choose for you.
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
The only system which makes sense to me is to restore consumerism to health care, which means insurance only for catastrophic illnesses like cancer or heart disease.
Sorry man, but unless you can show me a system that exists and works like the one you have in your head, it is all conjecture. These countries currently have working systems, and ours is broke as he!!. If you want our govmt to, through trial and error, create a system while crossing our fingers, I would urge you to rethink think your plan because I do not believe it can be done in any time frame that in meaningful.
Put in another way, which do you take better care of: a rental car, or your own car??? Once you remove responsibility from a system, including health care, people start treating it the way they treat a rental car.
Again, look to the current examples of countries with these systems and show me where that happens. The waste our system has compared to your hypothetical over-use simply does not exist.
Gas station attendant. I see. So he is one of those guys that run out to your car, check your oil and pump your gas.
Funny that I thought you would know what I was referring to. I guess I need to be ultra-specific for you in the future. Got it; although I bet you knew what I meant and could only get a jab in by being myopic. Good luck with that tactic - it will serve you well.
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
el Perro the Liar
And my problem with you is that you are making up problems and you don’t care who you hurt in doing so.
If you need to invent problems like the statements about Mara, you must not have much of reality that is really a problem.
I like USinUK not only because she is smart, she also seems to understand how little the words typed on this blog really mean. This is not personal, like you and JokesOn want to make it. These are just people expressing thoughts. And liberals go after conservatives, make vast generalizations and vent, but when the opposite happens, you invent yet another problem with me or chuck. It appears to be some sort of Alpha Male attempt, but you are failing miserably.
I always try to point to specifics, especially when talking to you about the things you do to hurt other people, but you are just able to return statements like “nothing you say ever makes sense, or “I hope you are satisfied for running others off” before you launch into yet another attack on myself or Chuck.
You need to calm down and stop inventing problems. I am not your enemy. You do not know anything about me or chuck or anyone else. Stop trying to make this personal.
And for God’s sake, leave Mara out of this. Stop using the poor woman to try and get at me.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
You can check your own oil….you are a DIPSTICK after all.
By Newsworthy?
April 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
You are talking out of your butt to try and make yourself look good.
And this is NEWS? You’re messing with someone’s personal blog. Can’t you smell those foul doggie dumps?
By Truth
April 21, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
jokesOn
Funny that I thought you would know what I was referring to.
So were you talking about a clerk in a convenience store that sells gas? That is not a gas station attendant. So no, I cannot read your mind and interpret your writings into something that makes sense. I do understand my own limitations. I just wish you and El Perro the Liar understood yours.
You tried to be funny by stating another adolescent insult toward chuck, but it just didn’t work. But when confronted, you try to make it about me, not what you said.
Typical.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
As much as I appreciate the sentiments TRUTH, I really don’t need defending. I enjoy rattling the chains of dumb and dumber on occasion, BUT, I really could not care less what they say about me. It’s a blog dude.
The best thing we can do is ignore the personal garbage they spew and just talk about the topic(s).
Take the pledge with me TRUTH: From now on, I hereby PLEDGE to IGNORE anything said by dogturd and jokeson except for those comments on a specific political, religious, or social topic to which I choose to respond. I further pledge to answer only the merits of the argument made by said posters and make no other comments, personal or otherwise.
Come with me TRUTH. It will take the wind from them. Are you willing?
By JokesOn
April 21, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO.
And they were still a communist country, which is what I think should have been considered.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
I don’t disagree with you about that jokeson, BUT the situation has changed drastically in the past few months. They are so afraid that some of their people may decide that they want democracy that they are going way beyond what they have done in the past to stifle opposing ideas. It’s occurring not only in Tibet, but throughout China.
THAT’s why we should boycott the games there and remove MFN status.
By Gandalf, the Grey
April 21, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
You’ll missed a very important point. We need to end our participation in the Cashlympics… the Olympic spririt is dead, has been since we let pro athletes participate.
By chuck
April 21, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
No argument there Gandalf. I used to contribute money to the U.S. Olympic Team, but I don’t any more. Most of those competitors make more money than I do in these so-called “AMATEUR” sports.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
For any of you who doubt my ability to be charming, I just talked my way out of a speeding ticket. A motorcycle cop caught me doing 83 in a 55 zone. After I got done BSing with him, he gave me a warning.
Take the pledge with me TRUTH: From now on, I hereby PLEDGE to IGNORE anything said by dogturd and jokeson except for those comments on a specific political, religious, or social topic to which I choose to respond. I further pledge to answer only the merits of the argument made by said posters and make no other comments, personal or otherwise.
Good luck on that one, chuckles.
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
In honor of my trip out West, I’m going to dedicate the Song of the Day to myself. From Bob Dylan:
So now I’m goin’ back again,
I got to get to her somehow.
All the people we used to know
They’re an illusion to me now.
Some are mathematicians
Some are carpenter’s wives.
Don’t know how it all got started,
I don’t know what they’re doin’ with their lives.
But me, I’m still on the road
Headin’ for another joint
We always did feel the same,
We just saw it from a different point of view,
Tangled up in blue…..
By El Perro
April 21, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
The Olympic Committee awarded the games YEARS AGO. The crackdown in Tibet happened in the last 3 months. China should be punished for that. The best way to punish communists…especially Asian communists…is to make them “lose face” or embarass them. We should absolutely tell them that we will not be attending the Olympics at all if they don’t immediately get out of Tibet. Additionally, we should take steps to remove them from MFN status until they correct the atrocities that are occurring.
One last jab at chuck’s stupidity before I go to the airport. The Dalai Lama was exiled in the 1950s, chuck. The “crackdown” on Tibet isn’t new in any way. As for your ridiculous idea that China or any other Asian nation is worried about losing face, I’ll just let the ridiculousness of that speak for itself.
I’ll make you a deal: You keep Other Truth as your friend, and I’ll keep JokesOn as my friend. I think you and Other Truth are made for each other. Now get back to wiping windows, will yo