Woman to Woman

By Vince Chiles, LCSW

February 3, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

Teach your kids to work hard, be kind to others, and to love themselves and they will eventually be happy. As children if you teach them these things well they won’t always be happy. For an easy guide to finding happiness go to www.happinessinfive.com

By USinUK

February 4, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

This just in: 17-year-olds romanticize relationships and can’t imagine having to ever work on one.

HA!!! So true, and probably one of the best retorts to Shaunti’s columns, yet.

Shaunti conflates 2 completely separate issues: instant gratification/indulgence and relationships and the work they require.

In the first, parents are indulging their children in all sorts of ways now and for all sorts of reasons - TVs, computers, all the material things they could want, possibly to compensate for the reduced amount of time they can spend with their kids or because they didn’t have these things when they were growing up. And, yes, of course it does a disservice to kids to not teach them the value of money and how to save for the things they want rather than “buy now/pay later.”

But, to equate that with wanting happiness in personal relationships is … well … ludicrous. Being in a committed relationship (whether its marriage or life partners or whatever you want to call it) is something you can’t really know until you’re in one. Much like having children, you can imagine what the concept is like, but until you’re living the day-to-day, you really have no idea.

Asking a teenager (who doesn’t even know what band he/she likes best from one month to the next) if they think someone should stay in a relationship if they’re not happy is like asking a priest what childbirth is like. They can tell you what they think it’s like or what they think they’d do, but they really have no personal experience to say for sure. So, to then take that next step and raise the alarms, saying “SEE?? We’re raising a generation of people who think happiness is everything and marriage is disposable” is extrapolating a bit too much.

By Monica

February 4, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

USinUK, I agree with your comments. I’m not touching the happily/unhappily married issue because it’s not really relevant to the topic at hand. I do think that we try too hard to make our kids happy, present blogger included, and that we do harm them. One measurement of this is the large number of overweight/obese children in the US. It’s easy to give in to a screaming four year old by giving him another cookie; saying no and enduring a tantrum is more work.

Also, giving them happiness with all of their favorite things is a sympom of another problem that USinUk touched on: the substitution of things for time. Time with our kids is what makes them happy, but we throw stuff at them to make them happy instead.

By USinUK

February 4, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Monica -

I can’t help it, I think in economic terms - what we’re doing is teaching a generation of kids that they can and should get what they want when they want it, regardless of the cost (that is, if they’re even aware of the cost to begin with).

Adding another generation to the negative savings culture is going to add to America’s economic woes.

By The Other Jack

February 4, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Before discussing the topic:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY THESE DAMNED SPAMMERS CAN GET ON THE BLOG IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT?

By Troglodyke

February 4, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Wow. I agree some with both women today. Nice dig at Gallagher, Andrea. I think you are doing a fine job filling Diane’s shoes. :-)

You know, I consider myself a pretty content person. I have all the “trappings,” and I appreciate them: great, loving relationship (8 years), satisfying career that allows me to pay the bills comfortably (and invest some for my future), decent network of friends and acquaintances to keep me grounded, hobbies that fulfill, no children to worry about. It’s a darn good life. I’ve made good, solid choices and am reaping the benefits of those. I’m 43, and am quite content where I am—no dreams of being younger. I had a good childhood, but I love being an adult.

My remaining family is a bit crazy, but that’s to be expected. I’m an adult, so I see them only when I want to.

Am I happy? Yes. All the time? No. But that’s the point. I think kids (and immature adults) think that “happiness” is all about, well, being happy all the time, or even most of the time.

For me, happiness is the ups and the downs, and the feeling of satisfaction when you’ve weathered the downs, and the rise back up into feeling normal again after times of strife and trouble. I certainly don’t invite trouble, but I don’t see it as a horrible thing. maybe the fact that I’m not afraid of it helps me to avoid a lot of it?

You can’t appreciate the good unless you have some bad to compare it to. Mature people don’t wallow in the negative, but use it as a comparative state, to help them enjoy the good parts. All life is the sum of the choices we have made combined with the benefits we were born into (if any). Everything you have ever done shapes the way you feel right now.

The sooner people realize this, the happier they will be.

By USinUK

February 4, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

You can’t appreciate the good unless you have some bad to compare it to. Mature people don’t wallow in the negative, but use it as a comparative state, to help them enjoy the good parts. All life is the sum of the choices we have made combined with the benefits we were born into (if any). Everything you have ever done shapes the way you feel right now.

!!!RAUCOUS APPLAUSE!!!

Well said.

By The Other Jack

February 4, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Both articles have a huge flaw: They both seem to believe that a teen would know happiness if they experienced it. Most adults would not recognize it if it hit them in the face.

I don’t know if people are taught to understand when they are happy or not. But I have friends that are happy every day. But I also know people who seem to have everything that are never happy.

By lozen

February 4, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

USinUK, Monica, Troglydyke - three wise women! Ain’t that the truth, So, to then take that next step and raise the alarms, saying “SEE?? We’re raising a generation of people who think happiness is everything and marriage is disposable” is extrapolating a bit too much. It’s really obvious that Shaunti never took Intro to Logic during her college career!

By Archie

February 4, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

I say yes sometimes we do harm our kids by trying to make them happy and yes I agree with Shanti that if we learn to delay gratification we would be better off financially. Both columnists make a good point about teenagers romanticizing relationships and the point should be emphasized that stuff happens in relationships so happiness has to change. Weight gain,sickness, mental health issues, and layoffs are just a few things that can affect happiness in relationships and those things happen all the time.

By USinUK

February 4, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Lozen

It’s really obvious that Shaunti never took Intro to Logic during her college career!

yes, but she passed Fundamentals of Hype with flying colors.

By lozen

February 4, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

Can we harm our children not caring if they’re happy or not? Can we harm our children by giving them too much? Can we harm our children by not giving them enough? Can we harm our children by being too rigid? Can we harm our children by being too easy going? Yes, yes, yes and yes. There is no training for the job. Being a parent is hell!

By lozen

February 4, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

USinUK, Fundamentals of Hype… ha, ha, HA!

By SusieHomeMaker

February 4, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

As a parent I find myself agreeing with both Andrea and (gasp!) Shaunti!!!

I think, We as parents, try too hard to give our children things that we never had, I guess it’s in order to relive OUR youth!!

EXAMPLE: I never had an Easy Bake Oven and I ALWAYS wanted one as a kid; so I bought my daughter one for christmas this past year. She didn’t ask for it, and hasn’t even taken it out of the box since she’s unwrapped it on Christmas Day!!! I’m perplexed!! Doesn’t she know about all the great things she can cook on that oven!?! When I asked her why she doesn’t play with her oven, her answer to me was, “I don’t want to learn how to cook”. IMAGINE!!! Someone turning down an Easy Bake Oven!!! I must’ve been drinking when I carried her!!!

My friend pointed out to me, that I didn’t buy that for her I bought it for myself. And then I started looking around at some of my kid’s things that are stuffed in the closet and I have to agree with him. I’m buying them things that they don’t want or need to appease ME not them.

By SusieHomeMaker

February 4, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

There is no training for the job. Being a parent is hell!

Amen to that!!! You can’t be a wimp and be a parent — you’ll never survive the experience!

By Jack

February 4, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

You can’t raise them believing that life is a bowl of cherries or they will have a rude awakening.

By honda-atv-400

February 4, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Cool site! ;)

By Lyrazel

February 4, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

As always this was another dull lecture in marriage where Shaunti can expand on her myopic beliefs if you marry a person you despise you will suddenly love each other in 5 years. POOF! Just like that!

As spoiled as Shaunti’s and Andrea’s generation was raised I find it ludicrous to believe they would parent any worse than their mothers & dads achieved. Prior generations always consider the generations following theirs worse (spoiled, mean, stupid, promiscuous, fill-in-the blank) than they were…

By Archie

February 4, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

I disagree with Lyrazel’s first sentence because Shanti does not say marry someone you despise, she basically says “hang in there” to couples that are already married and unhappy at this moment. I think you read too fast Lyrazel like a lot of people do when they have their minds made up to criticize someone. Too many people on this blog decide they don’t like somebody and just go off on a tangent.

I think my generation needs to be a little tougher and we need to romanticize less. I am in my late 40’s just for reference.

By Archie

February 4, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

And then I started looking around at some of my kid’s things that are stuffed in the closet and I have to agree with him. I’m buying them things that they don’t want or need to appease ME not them.

SusieH, at least you are woman enough to admit what you do.

By lozen

February 4, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

One of the things I’ve been wondering since this Democratic race between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama:

Black americans, women and men, are rightly proud of having a black man run for president after years of struggle to get this far. Why aren’t women rightly proud of having a woman run for president after years of struggle to get this far?

By Jen

February 4, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

I’m proud of both! It would only be better if Queen Latifah were running for PreZ1 ;)

On topic, yes, if we try too hard to sheild our children from every disappointment in life they will never develop the coping skills necessary to succeed as adults - this include but is not limited to marriage.

As for a marriage staying together - yes, try to stick through hard times. From personal experience you come out of it with mountain-sized security and confidence that the person you’re still married to has “got your back”. When the world starts kicking you in the kidneys you can take comfort that the person you’re STILL married to will understand and offer you sympathy, empathy, comfort, and assistance - all without thinking less of you.

HOWEVER, it depends on what those “hard times” are…if it’s an emotional disconnect and estrangement because one of you is prioritizing work or school with a foreseable goal in mind…okay, you can deal. If it’s his/her 8th time clearing up Chlamydia after rip roaring though the honky tonk? Put him/her to the road!

By Archie

February 4, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Good question Lozen, I have no idea why women aren’t more vocal with their support of Hillary. Right now I am listening to some lady being emotional and ignorant. Lozen this lady calls Hillary a liar but she does not understand that Obama is for universal healthcare as well. Lozen I am kind of embarrassed at the behavior of some blacks right now because of the lack of knowledge of the issues. Maybe women just don’t understand the issues either and they have bought into the unfounded negative criticism of Hillary Clinton. Lozen,frankly, I don’t think women know what true feminism is and I have hinted at that many times on this blog. I mean if you can have an affair and never be apologetic to your fellow woman then you can not be proud to have a woman running for president. Remember a republican female ran for president and there was no unity that time either. There appears to be a unique brand of selfishness among women. Please note that men are selfish too but we seem to know we’re selfish and not make any excuses.

By Archie

February 4, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Also Lozen families are split over Obama and Clinton and it’s embarassing. Jesse Jackson(Obama) but his wife supports Clinton and their sons are split. The Kennedy family is all over the place. The Sanchez family of democrats in California are split along generational lines. I am afraid a man will be the next president and he will be an old man continuing the status quo while the democrats sit around debating.

By lozen

February 4, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

Archie, Archie, Archie. I mean if you can have an affair and never be apologetic to your fellow woman then you can not be proud to have a woman running for president. How many black men have had an affair and never apologized to their lover’s husband Archie? Come on. The church lady and her pastor and her husband and his wife have nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. When Jesse got found out about fathering some woman’s baby did he go and apologize to her husband or father? If he didn’t, it doesn’t have anything to do with Obama! It doesn’t keep black people from being proud of what you’ve accomplished. I don’t think it’s embarrassing that political families are split over who they endorse. I think it’s kind of neat really. All the younger Kennedys are for Hillary. All the old ones are endorsing Obama! I think whichever gets the nomination, all those people will come together to support the candidate. I too have some fear that another old white man will end up in the White House though whether he runs against a woman or a black man.

By Newzwyre

February 5, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

lozen asks “Why aren’t women rightly proud of having a woman run for president after years of struggle to get this far?”

not about “a” woman, lozen…it’s about this PARTICULAR woman.

*Tears of the anti-Feminist -

“She is, it should be conceded, the most viable female candidate for the presidency in history. But feminism isn’t just about women wielding power. Female monarchs and despots have ruled throughout history - and it was no thanks to feminism. Few would see Elizabeth I or a dynast like Eva Peron as feminist role models. What matters is not that they came to such prominence; but how they did it. Inheriting office is no achievement. In some ways, inheriting it, when you could have won it alone, is a rebuke to feminism. What marks a true feminist is a woman who gains democratic office through strictly meritocratic means.”

“Think of Margaret Thatcher: a woman who came from lowly beginnings to master a chemistry degree and a legal career in the 1940s and 1950s, who won a seat in parliament single-handedly and eventually became a three-term prime minister… You think she didn’t have to deal with prejudice and chauvinism? More than Hillary Clinton will ever know. But she never engaged for a second in the gender politics and nepotistic shenanigans that Clinton has. Thatcher had a rich husband but he was not a stepping stone to politics. She had two children, but never used them for public attention or photo-ops. She did it all - indisputably - on her own merits.”

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/thedailydish/2008/02/clinton-the-ant.html#more

By Ronda

February 5, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Women who can’t let go!! I don’t understand women who can’t let go of a man. He leaves her for someone else and she still wants to be part of his life by staying in touch with his children, whom she hated while they were married. She makes a point of keeping up with him and his new woman. I got three words for you………..LET IT GO. Leave him alone, leave his kids alone. They should all be out of your life. But I have realized that one thing is true, misery loves company and when you are unsatisfied with yourself you long to make others as unhappy as you are. I’ve also come to realize that those are the women who marry man after man trying to find someone who can make them happy. You will never find anyone to make you happy until you are happy with yourself!! So, lose some weight, get a boob job, join the gym, learn to be alone and enjoy it. Spend some time getting to know you. Maybe somewhere along the line you’ll find happiness and won’t need a man. Good Luck!!

By Archie

February 5, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

When Jesse got found out about fathering some woman’s baby did he go and apologize to her husband or father? That lady was single, Lozen. You are right though that my scenario has nothing to do with Hillary. Lozen, I don’t know why women are not more rightly proud of having a woman run for president. The struggle of women has been different than that of blacks unless you break it down and just say black women, white women,etc. I feel good that I am evaluating Hillary the way I do men but Lozen there are people that won’t for either Clinton or Obama and they call themselves democrats. Obama has said point-blank he is not a Muslim yet some people don’t believe him and my point is that for some people the truth is not good enough and women seem to have a different way of evaluating people. I would love to see some analysis based on fact not the fear propaganda that’s been pushed by the opposing political party. A lot of women can’t get past that and men either but since you,Lozen, asked about women I framed it that way.

By abra

February 5, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

It is ridiculous to assert that unhappy people should (or should not) stay in a marriage. That is a very individual question. If one is happy because the spouse leaves socks on the floor or has gained weight, that is probably something they can work through. But there are many cases where one is unhappy because the spouse is cruel, promiscuous, or totally disconnected. You simply cannot sum up all these situations as if they were the same. Just ask Saudi and Afghan women what it is like to live in a world without divorce.

By kimberly

February 5, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Newzwire, you’re quoting Andrew Sullivan? He hates the Clintons. He makes his living doing smear jobs. He was also, for years, a cheerleader and enabler of the Bush disaster. Then he realized… ooo… this Bush administration isn’t such a great thing after all. Too little too late. He’s not a reporter, he’s a media wh-o-re.

Whatever choice y’all make today: fine. It’s your choice. But dang, at least use facts, issues, and positions to make it, not the nasty things these ayy-holes in the media say about people. They only care about the ratings and popularity they get slinging gossip and opinion. They don’t care about truth. Why is anyone still listening? You have the means to do your own research; I’m just saying.

By Swettannato

February 5, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

diflucan online

part tiime http://forums.film.com/member.php?u=53652 diflucan dangerous side effects

By Archie

February 5, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Hello Kimberly, good job. I was going to ask why no one called out Bush for nepotistic shenanigans and for the photo-ops he used. Really every candidate on either side has used gender,nepotism,etc. so like you said why do people listen. I have been saying for weeks Kimberly that facts and issues are the most important thing.

By Newzwyre

February 5, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

kimberly, I understand what you are saying about Sullivan and don’t disagree with any of it. But in this case, it seems to me that the item I used does express (for me, anyway) why I have mixed feelings about Senator Clinton. I thought that the question was subjective, about “feelings” as opposed to “facts”. I happen to agree with Sullivans points, in this case, though usually I find myself disagreeing with his politics.

The problem with most articles on either Clinton is that they’re either rapturous or contemptuous. The Clintons seem to invite polarity. Either you love ‘em or you hate ‘em, but very few people are indifferent. And that’s true whether you are at Raw Story, DKos, HuffPo, MyDD, TalkLeft, TPM, RedState, BalloonJuice, LGF, FreeRepublic, or yes…Sullivans DailyDish.

He had a link to an kimberly, I understand what you are saying about Sullivan and don’t disagree with any of it. But in this case, it seems to me that the item I used does express (for me, anyway) why I have mixed feelings about Senator Clinton. I thought that the question was subjective, about “feelings” as opposed to “facts”. I happen to agree with Sullivans points, in this case, though usually I find myself disagreeing with his politics.

The problem with most articles on either Clinton is that they’re either rapturous or contemptuous. The Clintons seem to invite polarity. Either you love ‘em or you hate ‘em, but very few people are indifferent. And that’s true whether you are at Raw Story, DKos, HuffPo, MyDD, TalkLeft, TPM, RedState, BalloonJuice, LGF, FreeRepublic, or yes…Sullivans DailyDish.

He linked to an interesting article the other day regarding “Hillary Derangement Syndrome”. I’ll try and find it again, just to even things up.

By Gale

February 5, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

It’s a fine thing to want your child to be happy. If it gets in the way of the primary focus of teaching the child to be a responsible, caring adult, you are doing it wrong.

As for being a woman proud of a woman candidate for president; I am very proud this country has come to this point. I voted for her and I think she is strong, tough and smart enough to be president. This is the first election in a while I have felt there is someone I can vote for instead of against. I didn’t vote for either Bush. I voted against them. It has been the lesser of poor choices for some years. This year, voters have some very good people to vote “for”.

I regret that I cannot vote for Obama —yet. I do not think he is experienced or tough enough. In four or eight years, I hope to see him running again. I think it takes more than being charismatic, which he certainly is. It takes more than wanting change, he has to be able to make changes happen. Jimmy Carter was a caring president. He was not able to make the wheels turn in Washington. Right now, America needs a strong, tough and smart leader.

Say what you will about the Clinton political machine. I believe she will be able to make things happen. What more can they scare up that they did not throw at the Clintons during Bill’s administration. She’s mean? I don’t care. I want someone who can lead the country — and not into a senseless war.

By Gale

February 5, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

One more note on the election: Look at their opinions and positions, remember that much of it is campaign rhetoric and ask yourself this.

If Hillary Clinton was male, would you have the same misgivings about her? If Obama was not black, would he still be in the race?

By kimberly

February 5, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Newzwyre, thanks! I totally respect your right to your opinion and your right to make decisions based upon it. My problem is primarily with the media where you see more opinion and “analysis” than facts. They have the opportity to present and clarify facts, compare and contrast, etc., but they focus instead on sensationalism and ratings. A better informed populace, I think, would make better decisions than a populace overloaded with feelings and impressions, which is what it seems we have for the most part today.

Gale, EXCELLENT points! Nicely put. I too think that toughness will matter in the general election and experience will matter in the WH. If anyone believes that the Repubs will be feeling all this unity and making nicey-nice with Obama after the convention this summer, I have some beach-front property in Kansas to sell you. Nevertheless, I’ll support the Democratic nominee 100%.

By USinUK

February 5, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Gale:

Say what you will about the Clinton political machine. I believe she will be able to make things happen

She’ll make things happen, all right. She’ll bring back a GOP majority in the House and Senate. She’ll have her finger in the air, testing the wind so much, she won’t lead as much as go along with where everyone else is going.

I’m a woman and a lifelong Dem - but Hillary Clinton is the LAST person I’d ever vote for.

In 2005, the Dems had a chance to stand up and make themselves heard by voting against the atrocity of a bankruptcy bill. It was an opportunity for the Dems to say “NO, we don’t think it’s right that people who undergo catastrophic illness will not be able to declare themselves bankrupt.” The leading cause of bankruptcy (more than 50%) is medical bills, not credit card bills.

And what happened? Hillary voted with the banking industry that is now funding her campaign and voted for the bill.

Obama voted against it - and that’s why I support his run for the presidency.

For all those people who say he doesn’t have the experience - see my original post above. The office of the presidency is a lot like being a parent - until you actually take the oath and spend your first night in 1600 Penn. Ave., you’ll never know what it’s like. There’s no real “training” or “experience” for it. The best we can hope for is someone intelligent, compassionate and curious, someone who wants to look at problems from different angles to find the best solution. And, most importantly, someone who puts the country first.

Does that REALLY sound like Hillary??? I think not.

By USinUK

February 5, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

Gale:

If Hillary Clinton was male, would you have the same misgivings about her? If Obama was not black, would he still be in the race?

Please. Like I care that Hillary has ovaries. She has been a horrible senator. Period. She has voted whichever way the wind blew - and, as I mentioned above, she didn’t stand up for what was right with the bankruptcy bill. So, man … woman … who the heck cares. It’s about decency. It’s about this government becoming of the people, by the people and FOR the people, again.

As for Obama - honestly, do you really think people are voting for him because he’s mixed race? Have you heard the man talk? He had me when he spoke at the Dem Convention in 2000 and I’ve been a fan ever since.

To boil that down to his skin color … well, I mean, really (shaking my head) … talk about another reason to not listen to the media hype.

By kimberly

February 5, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

USinUK, good point on the bankruptcy bill. I was all over my congress weasel about that one, but he’s a Repug and doesn’t care about human beings, only big money. To be fair, I think ALL the Democrats have rolled over when they should have stood firm. (Did Obama vote NO on funding for the war? Did he stand and filibuster anything? No. They’re ALL guilty of enabling the status quo.) I’m sick of them trying to make nice and be centrist and compromise, because it only gives weight to the accusations of spinelessness. I like KUCINICH because he actually has the ‘nads to say, “Let’s impeach these effers for their traitorous crimes.” But Americans don’t truly respect the spine, it seems. Does your husband have a brother? Tell him I can, and WILL, cook for the right man! hahaha!

By HeeHaw

February 5, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

talk about another reason to not listen to the media hype.

But the really ignorant actually need that.

I had one of them tell me recently Obama wanted to take his Presidential Oath on the Koran. I had to point out that that would be pretty interesting thing from a Roman Catholic. He STFU.

By Archie

February 5, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

USinUk you are the first person I have heard that actually clearly states why they are supporting Obama without using terms like charismatic, and different.

If anyone believes that the Repubs will be feeling all this unity and making nicey-nice with Obama after the convention this summer, I have some beach-front property in Kansas to sell you. Kimberly I will help you sell that property.

One of the reasons I support Clinton is because she mentioned universal healthcare 14 years ago. Now the problem with the uninsured is worse and she is sticking with her idea. She started getting called all those names back when she first mentioned changing healthcare and there was no factual basis to call her mean,dishonest, or anything at that point. Since I see thru propaganda I just look at ideas and facts. When you can’t debate someone straight up with facts you distort what they say and you wait for the slightest mistake because you can’t debate their ideas. If Obama wins republicans will bring up that magazine that called him the most liberal politician and they will lie about his religious affiliation. Kimberly I wish my people had your attitude but some are embarrassingly uninformed.

By USinUK

February 5, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Kimberly -

They’re ALL guilty of enabling the status quo

That is all too true … and I put a lot of that down to Reid. Talk about a crappy leader. GAH. Yes, every once in a blue moon he finds some testicular fortitude, but for the most part, he caves (in particular, his support for FISA) Why-oh-why can’t we have an equivalent of a Gingrich - someone who keeps their peeps in line!!!??? Keeping the dems on message is like herding kittens.

(but it’s still better than being a GOPper)

By HeeHaw

February 5, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

BTW - I live in a country with a national health care system and am happy to answer any questions you guys have (and I promise “warts and all” answers, as the saying goes)

what about the news item out of London(UK) just today, apparently getting people to quit smoking and stay trim will actually cause the health system to have MORE expenses, since people who live LONGER will require more long-term medical care.

It kinda meant, smoke-em-up and eat those fries, we need DYERS to keep the health system financially healthy. LOL

By Jen

February 5, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

One of the biggest “warts” I hear about socialized/universal healthcare is that you won’t have the option of choosing the BEST doctor. For example, if you need a heart transplant you won’t get to go to the Cleveland Clinic because of X, Y, Z reasons under universal healthcare.

However, the reality is even with private insurance how many people get to choose Cleveland Clinic?

The only way you get to choose is if you pay it all out of pocket…and who can do that? I can pay for my hormones (for corrective purposes not vanity or convenience) out of pocket ($400/mo) but I couldn’t pay for heart surgery out of pocket. And think of all the Americans who could NOT pay $400/mo out of pocket for necessary medication.

By HeeHaw

February 5, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

I did not mean for them to be Paisley so how about Diers?

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth

February 5, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Vince Chiles is so right! Everyone should read “The Reason-Driven Life” and “The Myth of Self -Esteem” to fathom how to do so.

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth[skeptic griggsy]

February 5, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Hee Haw ,by living longer they will contribute to the system so matters should even out. BTW, what about the supposedly long lines and people having to come here for special care? Do you think you get values for your taxes for the system? Even the Conservatives seem to want it! With Hillary’s plan, one gets choice as one can keep ones present plan if one so wants.People who don’t think critically and don’t won’t progress just bray socialism at what they do not like!

By Archie

February 5, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

I agree with you on the urgency of some kind of single-payer system - and, the sad fact is, whatever ANY candidate does to solve the proble, it will be called “socialized health care” Please don’t say single-payer because even Obama does not want his plan called that. I already visited his website way before Lozen started this discussion. You see I really am interested in the ISSUES. Another reason I stayed with Hillary is because the GOP hates her so philosophically that made me dig in and of course visit her website. Both Barack and Hillary’s plans support choice!! Also there is a state up north that already implements the principles of Hillary’s plan.

USinUk, my question is do you guys have long lines? How do you pay for your healthcare?

By HeeHaw

February 5, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

won’t progress just bray socialism at what they do not like!

and it works. best way to make someone/something EVIL, aside from attacking their sexuality, is to throw out the socialism label.

By Jen

February 5, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

It’s funny because whenever someone, like a Republican or a Libertarian, wants to discuss health care with me I ALWAYS preface by saying, “OK, before we get started you should understand that I am a socialist.”

Oftentimes…they don’t want to try to “discuss” things with me anymore. XD

By Gandalf, the Grey

February 5, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Beat you children regularly, and your spouse, give ‘em character!

By lozen

February 5, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

It’s getting beyond ridiculous already. I just read an email blaming Hillary (and Bill) for the suicide of farmers in India! Because they didn’t stop Monsanto from loosing biogenetic demon seeds in India and other countries. There’s not enough time in the world, let alone this afternoon before 7pm, to research all the accusations against Hillary that are flying today! And the guesses: like “the Repubs really want Hillary to win because they’re terrified of Barack. They know they can destroy Hillary but not Barack.” And, by the way, Hillary has “disgustingly thick ankles” according to Carl Bernstein. Can’t have a woman with thick ankles for president can we?

By Gale

February 5, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Another good item in Clinton’s health care plan is the intent to move to electronic forms. I was in the health care industry when the first plan surfaced and I was shocked this idea was not included. That item alone will save millions. The cost of paperwork for a simple office visit is part of the reason health care is expensive. It costs a lot more than most people would imagine.

By the way, a benefit of failure is it gives you a good picture of what will not be accepted. I think she will pitch what the American people will buy on this issue. Remember, the president can only pitch the idea. Congress needs to make it work.

I see many more specifics in Clinton’s plans than I do in Obama’s. I think she is able to take the flack from people who disagreee with her and is not afraid to lay the cards on the table. Does she change the plan if she sees something will not be accepted? The plan, I don’t think so; the path, maybe. But she does not let go of the idea. This issue is important to her and even more important to Americans now than it was then.

By Archie

February 5, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

Remember, the president can only pitch the idea. Congress needs to make it work. Gale you are blessing because so many people don’t understand the president is the executive branch of government but it takes the legislative branch to pass a law and the judicial branch also known as the Supreme Court to interpret the law and say if certain things are legal and constitutional. Some folk think the president just waves his hand and something happens. It’s getting beyond ridiculous already. I just read an email blaming Hillary (and Bill) for the suicide of farmers in India! Lozen, I told you weeks ago that folk were coming up with wild tales against Hillary to the point it was ridiculous. No one can prove anything empirically and again if people can’t beat you in a debate they attack you for stupid stuff like your ankles or your cleavage or maybe you had a typo so that invalidates whatever you speak about. Lozen, now you see why I am afraid we will continue with the status quo!

By Jen

February 5, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Some folk think the president just waves his hand and something happens.

It seems like that HAS happened a lot in the past 8 years…

XD

By Gale

February 6, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this

I actually heard someone on a call-in radio show ranting that Hillary is not qualified to be president because the constitution clearly states “he” in referencing the office of the president.
The great thing about our country is that we let people that deluded vote. The sad/great thing about our country is we let people that deluded say things like that on radio.

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

Hi guys - sorry for the delay (blame it on the time difference) … you asked about National Health Care, here goes (in chron order)

HeeHaw: the smoker/fatties study you cited was from another national health care country, the Netherlands. We just used it as an excuse to go down to the pub ;-)

Jen: (asked whether we can see specialists). NHS (National Health Service) works a lot like an HMO does - you have a GP who is your entry point into the system. You register with a GP close to your home so that, if something should happen and you are unable to travel, a home healthcare worker will be nearby to treat you. If you are having problems and need to see a specialist, the GP will write a recommendation for you. If the need isn’t urgent, it might take a couple of weeks, but, of course, if it’s a critical matter, it’s taken care of much faster. My husband has retinal problems and had NO problems getting registered with a specialist Hospital here in London. As far as wanting to see Dr. Whosit in Nowhereshire, people here don’t make as big of a deal over the biggest/bestest surgeons (there are no top 10 cardiologists/dentists/ophthalmogists, etc, published in magazines here - or, at least, none that I’ve seen).

Archie: (asked how do we pay and are there lines) The NHS is paid for through National Insurance, which operates a lot like Social Security, and covers health care, unemployment and the state pension. It is separate from income tax, but I couldn’t tell you much more detail than that.

As for lines, you might have a wait of a couple of weeks if the need isn’t urgent, but not if the need is critical. As any woman in this forum can testify, the wait to see a US OBGYN is usually 4-8 weeks just for a routine check-up, so, really, I don’t see a US advantage, where that’s concerned.

Benefits: seeing a doctor is free. If want to and you have the money, you can always opt to “go private” without the costs being too prohibitively expensive (for instance, I know someone who got an echocardiogram privately and it only cost £280). Medications are free for kids under 16 and seniors over 65. If you have a medical condition (MS, diabetes, etc), your meds are free. If you are pregnant or have a pre-school child, your meds are free. If you have an infant, you get free home health visits from a registered nurse to help you care for your baby. If you don’t fall into any of the above categories, your meds usually cost around £10.

Any other questions?? I’m happy to answer :-)

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

One more thing about the benefit of a nationalized health system:

There are no worries if you should lose your job. Speaking as someone who has been laid off twice, it is a very scary thing to lose that safety net and think that you are 1 car accident away from financial ruin.

By Jen

February 6, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

USinUK,

“As any woman in this forum can testify, the wait to see a US OBGYN is usually 4-8 weeks just for a routine check-up”

My point exactly. If I were to call up my endocrinologist right now to make an appointment outside of my regularly scheduled quarterly one I’d be given a date sometime in March. Same with the OBGYN. MAYBE I could get an appointment in 3 weeks with the family practitioner. If it’s urgent I can go to the ER or go to a walk-in urgent care facility and be seen within several hours. If I am dying they’ll see me ASAP.

It was this way when I was doing PPO and when I did HMO. From what I can see, the only difference between these two managed health-care systems is that for the HMO I need a referral from my PCP to go to my endocrinologist. With the PPO I can just make the appointment myself. In both cases I am restricted to doctors listing in the Provider Directories, often that list is the same for both.

The big advantage to single-payer\universal\socialist healthcare is that I bet you never get turned down for treatment…

By Jack

February 6, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

“Some folk think the president just waves his hand and something happens.”

He passes gas.

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Jen -

The big advantage to single-payer\universal\socialist healthcare is that I bet you never get turned down for treatment…

You never get turned down due to a pre-existing condition.

AND, it’s cheaper. According to a 2007 study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), people in the US pay an average of $6,102 per capita on health care - more than double the OECD average and nearly 20% more than Luxembourg (the next most expensive country).

Why? The US has fewer doctors and has fewer hospitalizations on average BUT the US likes its gadgets. The US uses more of the latest medical technology and does far more invasive procedures more frequently than the OECD average.

What does the US get for all its spending?? Shorter than average life expectancy and higher than average infant mortality.

(taken directly from the study) “Research comparing the quality of care has not found the United STates to be superior overall. Nor does the US population have substantially better access to health care resources, even putting aside the issue of the uninsured. Although the United States does not have long wait times for non-emergency surgeries, like some OECD countries, Americans found it more difficult to make same-day doctor’s appointments when sick and had the most difficulty getting care on nights and weekends. They were also most likely to delay or forgo treatment because of cost.”

Lastly, before anyone starts shouting “it’s expensive because of lawsuits”, here’s what the OECD had to say: “Although OECD data does not compare prices of medical care, other studies have found that the United States pays higher prices for medical care than countries such as Canada and Germany. Part of the reason for this may be that the US General practitioners and nurses are the highest paid in the OECD and US specialists are the third-highest paid in the OECD”

By lozen

February 6, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

I don’t understand how anyone, outside of the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, can argue against universal health care! Oh well, insurance and pharmaceutical companies can pay for a lot of lobbyists, and a lot of politicians! In a civilized country everyone should have basic health care. USinUK, what about elective surgery - if a man has an erection problem and wants one of those pumps for example, or plastic surgery? Would your insurance cover that?

By lozen

February 6, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Jack, hey! Are you saying that whenever the prez waves his hand he passes gas?

By Jack

February 6, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

Hi Lozen. He waves his hand just after. Don’t want to sit next to him! LOL

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Lozen:

what about elective surgery - if a man has an erection problem and wants one of those pumps for example, or plastic surgery? Would your insurance cover that?

Hrm - define “elective” - for instance, women here can opt for a c-section (thus the phrase “too posh to push”) and it will be covered. And plastic surgeries to repair deformities such as a cleft palate, scarring or something like a large port-wine-stain birth mark are covered. But going from a AA to a DDD cup? No. And I don’t think “the peeper pump” would be included, either, but I could be wrong.

Interestingly, though, a sex change op is covered as a human rights issue (but just don’t get me started on the EU).

By Archie

February 6, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

I don’t understand how anyone, outside of the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies, can argue against universal health care! Lozen, you know that’s socialized medicine. How dare you…? In all seriousness Massachusetts is the model for Clinton’s plan. Romney signed it into law and it fines a person if they don’t have health insurance and you pay for it on a sliding scale. It’s going to be tough to get it done on a national scale because of the fear-mongering crowd. All those things posted by USinUk are things I have read concerning cost. What stops the country from meaningful change in this area is the superiority complex that runs the minds and hearts of so many americans. America does not have the best healthcare system in the world and if that were acknowledged then it would be easier to get a single payer system and move on.

By Monica

February 6, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

USinUK, how about elective surgeries? What is the wait time? I have heard horror stories from Canada. For example: an ACL tear is quite critical for an athlete, but not life-threatening. How long would one have to wait for knee surgery?

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Archie:

What stops the country from meaningful change in this area is the superiority complex that runs the minds and hearts of so many americans.

With all due respect, what stops the country from meaningful change is the mighty and powerful pharmaceutical and insurance lobbies. Look at how they have fought being able to bring drugs into the country from Canada (and these include US-manufactured drugs!) - this is something the people want, but can’t get pushed through Congress because of the lobbyists.

By Archie

February 6, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

The comments about gas are funny Jack!!! Some people think whoever becomes president be it Obama or Clinton will bring the troops home in 60 days after taking office and no one has said that. They said they will develop a strategy to bring the troops home after 60 days in office, big difference. Anyway Bush looks like he has gas problems.

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Monica -

USinUK, how about elective surgeries? What is the wait time? I have heard horror stories from Canada. For example: an ACL tear is quite critical for an athlete, but not life-threatening. How long would one have to wait for knee surgery?

That’s a good question - to my knowledge, it is covered by NHS as it is an injury. There may be a wait of a couple of weeks, but not months and months (although “your mileage may vary”, as they say). One of my coworkers’ boyfriends badly injured his ankle and has had fantastic care - seen a surgeon regularly to monitor his progress and will see a physical therapist.

By Archie

February 6, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

With all due respect, what stops the country from meaningful change is the mighty and powerful pharmaceutical and insurance lobbies. That’s true USinUk but the lobbyists win the public relations game by using the superiority complex or the idea that the status quo is the best in the world. If congressman knew they would lose elections that situation you posted about would get corrected pronto. Let’s face it public relations and marketing people are very good in this country.

By lozen

February 6, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

It is the job of republican politicians to make sure women have children they don’t want and can’t provide for. It is the job of politicians to require every woman to bring every pregnancy to term. They are the spokesmen for god! But it’s not the job of politicians to insure that all those unwanted children have food, shelter or even insurance! That’s socialism! McCain, Huckabee and Romney all believe politicians should tell women what we must do with our bodies. Huckabee may even think it should be added to the constitution!

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth[skeptic griggsy]

February 6, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

UsinUk, thanks! That belies the consternation that brayers of socialism ever bray. Hee Haw and Archie and lozen, ever so right. Please enligthen us further! Notice how the posts here veer from the original question! And that is so good in this case! Children need to learn what the authors of those two books say and- need to realize that government, contrary to Ronald Wilson Reagen is not the enemy but is our servant that we ever need to trust but verify!

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Morgan -

government, contrary to Ronald Wilson Reagen is not the enemy but is our servant that we ever need to trust but verify

VERY well said.

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth[skeptic griggsy]

February 6, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

UsinUK, thanks again. I am so glad a Briton can answer those brayers of nonsense. And welfare counts for less than one % of the budget,and foreign aid for another less than one% and the same for earmakrs! Yet demagogues play them up as so harming the budget! Sure, we should do something about earmarks and make the other two better. Libertarians bray about the road to serfdom but do not see that is so silly. We need adequate regulations for safety, health and competition. Even Hayek did not mind the safety net!

By USinUK

February 6, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Morgan -

It all goes back to what Archie, Lozen and others in the forum have been discussing yesterday and today - if you want to decide one way or another on something (whether it’s a candidate or a health care system), make sure it’s based on facts and information. I’ve had it up to here with people denigrating “socialized medicine” based on myths and myopia. That’s why I feel it’s important to at least let people know what it’s really like. It’s not perfect, but it works pretty darned well.

By Jack

February 6, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

USinUK. Just curious. How high is the income tax over there?

By lozen

February 7, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

They should change the name of this blog to “Spam to Spam”

By Monica

February 7, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

USinUK, your description of National Health Care reminds me of education: you go to the public school in your district for free (well, your tax dollars pay for it). If you are unhappy with your school, then you can pay lots of money to send your child to a private school.

Under a National Health Care System, I can envision doctors being subject to “No Patient Left Behind.” Doctors will be graded on their patient mortality rate or their average patient BMI figures. If a doctor’s scores are substandard, then his patients can receive a voucher to go see another doctor out of district whose scores are excellent. Doctors will be mandated to make sure 100% of patients are non-smokers in 4 years.

Just some wild thoughts I had this morning. :)

By The Other Jack

February 7, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I bought a used car from a friend. He had gotten the car from a brother that had died. After a full year of making multiple visits to Dekalb County, a trip to Myrtle Beach, SC to get a signature of the guy’s mother and then being told she signed the wrong form, even though that was the form I was given, I finally forged the dead guy’s signature and had a friend stamp it. Once I was willing to break the law and forge a singnature, getting my tags were no problem. And these would be the people that would be running our health system?

It is already ran by bean counters for HMOs and then we put another layer of incompetent government bureaucracy in the mix.

I have seen the Health system in the UK. It is OK, but you get drugs at least a year after they are released here. Good doctors go to well paying countries and the UK isn’t one of them.

Medical tourism is making a killing off people from socialized medicine countries.

The system here is horrible, but with socialized medicine there are at least as many problems.

The government here, especially the local government is about as incompetent as any in the world. I don’t want the rude woman at the tag office to decide when I get the check-up after the surgery.

By Archie

February 7, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

Jack asked about the income tax over in the UK and that’s good question but I would be fine with money coming out of my check for healthcare because that’s exactly what happens now. A lot of people think universal means government care but it’s really about paying. People want to be able to pay for their insurance and that’s why other countries use what’s called a single payer system because that’s one way they control costs.

By The Other Jack

February 7, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

Archie

So you want the government to force everyone to buy health insurance. This may come as a huge shock, but if people could afford the insurance, they would have it.

How about this: Congress does what it promised and regulates and taxes the oil companies. That money is earmarked to pay for Universal Health care for everyone.

Simple solution, but it would require that the two largest lobbying groups in Washington lose a tremedous amount of money for the betterment of our country.

What am I thinking? The Republicans or the Democrats saying no to the insurance or oil lobbies? Silly me.

By Jack

February 7, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Me either Archie. I just don’t want it to be 80% of my check.

By Archie

February 7, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

TOJ, at this point I would prefer a single-payer system but it’s not going to happen. So you want the government to force everyone to buy health insurance. This may come as a huge shock, but if people could afford the insurance, they would have it. I am not mad at you for for those statements but there are plans out there for people to pay on a sliding scale. Hey man we’re going to have to pay something. I am not upset with your ideas because right now we have a problem and we’re not doing anything. Every single-payer proposal has failed except Massachusetts and I am not sure about that because it’s hard to find the truth sometimes.

By USinUK

February 7, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

I was beginning to wonder if you were on vacation this week … here we are at Thursday and this is your first peep??

And these would be the people that would be running our health system? It is already ran by bean counters for HMOs and then we put another layer of incompetent government bureaucracy in the mix.

First of all, do you really think there’s a difference between people who work for the gov’t and people who work for private businesses (especially where the job involves processing paperwork)??? Fact is, government bureaucracy is cheaper than the insurance bureaucracy - I don’t have the time right now to look up the exact cost, but I believe Medicare is something like 75% cheaper to process claims than the average health insurance company.

I have seen the Health system in the UK. It is OK, but you get drugs at least a year after they are released here. Good doctors go to well paying countries and the UK isn’t one of them.

As for getting drugs a year after they’re released in the US - you’re kidding, right?? RU-486 was held up in the US for a DECADE after it was released in Europe. In fact, until the mid-90s when Congress mandated that the FDA speed up their approval process, they were notoriously slow approving drug use. Now, they’re too fast and not thorough enough in their research.

As for the UK not paying doctors enough - I guess that’s why the UK announced yesterday that they are implementing limits on the number of doctors from other countries coming here to practice - because no one wants to come here?? The reason US doctors get paid so much is because they owe so much in student loans when they graduate med school - but exorbitant university tuition is another subject all together.

Medical tourism is making a killing off people from socialized medicine countries.

Geez louise - medical tourism is a problem here in the UK, too! It’s a problem everywhere, not just the US.

The system here is horrible, but with socialized medicine there are at least as many problems.

Yes, there are problems - but access to health care isn’t one of them - which it IS in the US.

The government here, especially the local government is about as incompetent as any in the world. I don’t want the rude woman at the tag office to decide when I get the check-up after the surgery.

Please - just stop knocking people who work for the gov’t. There are hundreds of fantastic state/federal employees out there doing god’s work and all they get is guff from people who like to inflate their own self-worth by sneering at them. So what if there are rude people at the DMV? There are rude people at restaurants, hospitals and pretty much anywhere you go. But, there are far more hard-working people at all of those places whose good work goes unsung.

By Archie

February 7, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

USinUk you made some excellent points because the DMV here in South Carolina has some excellent workers!!! Also one of my coworkers is going on a trip out of country to get dental work done. He said it’s cheaper even with paying for the cost of the trip. We simply don’t have the best healthcare here in America. USinUk you posted some facts earlier this week so you’re fine with me and at least we had a good discussion for 3 days.

By USinUK

February 7, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Archie - you’re okay by me, too :-)

(other than 1 bad DMV experience, I’ve only had good experiences going to the DMVs in all the states I’ve lived in - maybe it’s a matter of going in with a good attitude - but, I gotta say, Virginia’s DMVs are fantastic)

By lozen

February 7, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

USinUK, you’re great with facts and retorts to Mr. Generalizer. Funny isn’t it? He really gets hot under the collar when people generalize about the repubs. Then he turns around and genralizes more than anybody else about teens - they don’t know if they’re happy or not, people - wouldn’t know happy if it slapped them in the face, gov’t employees - all bad, democrats - all stupid liberals. On and on and on. I was thinking on the way to work this morning - we have been blessed on the blog this week! Now here we go again. Keep up your good work blowing his chauvinism out of the water!

By Copyleft

February 7, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

quote: *I have seen the Health system in the UK. It is OK, but you get drugs at least a year after they are released here.”

Whereas here in the U.S., you don’t get them at all, unless you’re rich enough to pay for another month of life. Yes, that’s much better.

“Good doctors go to well paying countries and the UK isn’t one of them.”

Good doctors will go where they’re needed. GREEDY doctors go to well-paying countries, where only the wealthy can afford their treatments. Check your wallet; which would you rather have?

By lozen

February 7, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

THIS MAKES ME LAUGH. THIS MAKES ME HAPPY! “Since George Washington, white males in America have been secure in the knowledge that the president of the United States was going to look like them, more or less. No longer. What’s more, as white men voting in Democratic primaries and caucuses make their decisions, they face the prospect of being poked and prodded just like any other demographic subgroup. Before last month’s South Carolina primary, for instance, journalists visited black beauty salons in the Palmetto State to report the “cross pressures” on black woman voters. Would they vote their race or their gender? As it turned out, black women then and since have overwhelming chosen Obama. The time may have arrived for the media to descend on “white barbershops,” to find out how white males are coping with the cross pressure to vote their race or their gender. THIS MADE ME SO HAPPY. THIS MADE ME LAUGH!

By lozen

February 7, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

Copyleft: Your comments at 12:27, priceless!

By lozen

February 7, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Netbanker, please call home. I’m worried about you.

By Jack

February 7, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

I guess I’m not going to get an answer about the tax rate in Britian. :(

By Jen

February 7, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

Jack, here’s a website that might shed some light (USinUK can verify or disclaim, etc):

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/tax/incometaxrates.htm

Conversion rate is about 1.94 so 34,600UK is about 67,124US. Looks like about 40% tax rate.

However, what percent of your paycheck goes towards your health insurance (including dental and vision)?

USinUK, don’t they call it Benefits there? Just that it’s Public Benefits instead of Corporate Benefits.

By Archie

February 7, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

The tax rate isn’t that 80 percent you spoke about earlier,Jack. C’mon USinUk said things weren’t perfect but we know things need to change here. I have health insurance but having been laid off before I have empathy for people that don’t and I sold health insurance years ago so anyway you look at it people are going to pay something. The philosophy of making everyone buy health insurance is that the cost will go down because there’s more money coming in. I don’t see a problem with a sliding scale and our government could adjust as needed. Heck, that’s why folk pay all this money for education so it can be put to practical use.

By Jen

February 7, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Oops! I think you need to put underscores between income, tax, and rates in the link. I’ve noticed that this blog converts them to smushed together italics….

By Jack

February 7, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Thanks Jen. :)

By Jen

February 7, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I pay in the 28% tax bracket in the US (well, my husband and I do together, not just me). With health, dental, and vision taking another 8.5% it’s just not that much difference…and I’m not even talking about state taxes…

The US is much larger so I don’t know how those numbers would change in our population…

By Jen

February 7, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

And they might not change much because our taxes are currently paying for indigent health care in places like Grady, etc.

It really makes me wonder if things would feel all that different on the pocketbook - especially to us middle classers.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

By USinUK

I was beginning to wonder if you were on vacation this week … here we are at Thursday and this is your first *peep??

Big week for work. And yesterday I had to take my kitten in to have him fixed. Now he is just staring at me.

First of all, do you really think there’s a difference between people who work for the gov’t and people who work for private businesses (especially where the job involves processing paperwork)???

There may not be in England but you lived here. The woman that “helped” me with the car title had no business working with people and certainly not with people with specific needs. Apparently her only qualifications for that job was her unique ability to convert Oxygen into Carbon Dioxide. Here in America, competence takes a second seat to affirmative action and the new good old boy network. In business, this is not generally the case.

Fact is, government bureaucracy is cheaper than the insurance bureaucracy - I don’t have the time right now to look up the exact cost, but I believe Medicare is something like 75% cheaper to process claims than the average health insurance company.

But with the US government, there are no restrictions on cost. Money is not the problem. It is finding people who do not openly despise half the people they encounter in their job. As far as a comparison, take a look at the cost of private schools as compared to the union infested public system. And then look at the test results.

As for getting drugs a year after they’re released in the US - you’re kidding, right?? RU-486 was held up in the US for a DECADE after it was released in Europe.

That was held up because it was a controversial drug. Yes, drug companies charge premium costs for new drugs and socialized medical budgets will not pay those prices, especially when the old drugs work almost as well.

In fact, until the mid-90s when Congress mandated that the FDA speed up their approval process, they were notoriously slow approving drug use. Now, they’re too fast and not thorough enough in their research.

The point is, those drugs are generally not released to anyone until the native manufacturer is granted approval. Then the socialized medicine countries want huge discounts for massive buys, something that many drug companies simply will not do.

As for the UK not paying doctors enough - I guess that’s why the UK announced yesterday that they are implementing limits on the number of doctors from other countries coming here to practice - because no one wants to come here??

Where are they coming from? I’m not saying that the UK is even bad, they just don’t pay as well as some other countries.

The reason US doctors get paid so much is because they owe so much in student loans when they graduate med school - but exorbitant university tuition is another subject all together.

No, the entire US system is a huge rip-off. I regularly negotiate as much as 60% off any bill that I need to co-pay. So why can I do that? Everything here is marked up well beyond what any service is worth. My friend was just charged over 80 bucks for a bottle of Advil she was given after surgery. I’ll say it again: this system stinks. But there is nothing out there any better in the guise of socialized medicine. Perhaps if politicians would address the needs of the people instead of the needs of the lobbyists, that would change. I’m not holding my breath.

Geez louise - medical tourism is a problem here in the UK, too! It’s a problem everywhere, not just the US.

A problem? Why is it a problem? It is a solution. Americans who don’t want to pay $200,000 for a surgical procedure can go to a world class hospital and have the same procedure for a fraction of the money while NOT having an HMO bean counter leaning on the doctor to have you sent home while you are still having complications. People go there from England and Canada because of the better care and drugs that are available.

Yes, there are problems - but access to health care isn’t one of them - which it IS in the US.

Agreed. We do have Grady, but once again politics is entirely in the way of good medical care. Mal-practice suites have destroyed any hope of fair costs, and any time the government tries to protect the doctors from outrageous settlements, the lawyer lobbyists step in and pay people off.

Please - just stop knocking people who work for the gov’t.

You, in England have an efficient, well working government. I live in a city that is full of incompetent government people. Anyone who needs to work with Fulton or Dekalb County or the city of Atlanta, automatically expects incompetence and complacency. And they are rarely proven wrong. I know this from experience, not rumor.

There are hundreds of fantastic state/federal employees out there doing god’s work and all they get is guff from people who like to inflate their own self-worth by sneering at them. So what if there are rude people at the DMV? There are rude people at restaurants, hospitals and pretty much anywhere you go. But, there are far more hard-working people at all of those places whose good work goes unsung.

At a restaurant, those rude, incompetent people do not get to postpone my driving the car I just bought for over a year. And if I am treated rudely in a restaurant or a store, I leave and go where the workers are not rude. The government has a monopoly. Take the rudeness, complacency and incompetence or leave it.

You are right in that there are good people working in government agencies. That’s why I always call an outlying county when I need general information. In Atlanta, a person is subjected to layers and layers of expensive auto answering systems to protect city workers from having to deal with that nasty old public. Call Gwinnett County and you hear the unfamiliar voice of a person actually answering the phone. It is scary at first, but it is easy to get used to.

I would ask you to consider that all governments are not the same. Atlanta is not as bad as some, but much worse than most. And there are good people that work for Atlanta, they are just very hard to find.

Maybe you haven’t been here for a while. Most of my neighborhood used to attend the city sponsored safety meetings. The last one was listed as starting at 8AM on a Saturday. Several of us were running a little late and got there at 8:10. The hall wasn’t opened yet. A person showed up at 8:30 and the meeting started at 9:30. Who do I bill for that hour and a half? They sure as hell would have billed me.

That’s the way the city here works. They can’t even be within an hour of “On Time”. Try that in any business and see how you do.

A good example was the 1996 games. We put that on in spite of the local government. It was the Atlanta businesses that built those Olympics, certainly not the government.

Hope you have had a good week.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

Iozen

I’m glad I make you think. Somebody needs to.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

Archie

Thanks for not being mad. You are right in that no one has a solution. The Insurance system is as bad as the oil industry in the way they buy Congress.

Like I had said: medical tourism show us that there is good care out there for a reasonable cost. I’m not saying that we need to go to India to have a tooth pulled, but why is there such a huge discrepancy in costs?

I think it is criminal and needs a real criminal investigation: a real investigation that discloses who is being paid off.

I think we all want good care, Archie. But I don’t see giving the insurance companies even more power.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Copyleft

Good doctors will go where they’re needed. GREEDY doctors go to well-paying countries, where only the wealthy can afford their treatments. Check your wallet; which would you rather have?

So you are saying that there are no good doctors here where they are generally well paid. LOL!!

Now that is one hell of a generalization.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Hey TOJ - will write a longer reply later (in the middle of something at the moment) - but did want to reply to this:

It was the Atlanta businesses that built those Olympics, certainly not the government.

you’re kidding again, right??? Coca Cola didn’t build the Dome. Big Brown didn’t build the Ga Tech aquatic center. and Ga Pacific sure as heck didn’t expand the convention center.

But you do have two words to thank for gov’t not picking up the entire pricetag: Tom Murphy. The best speaker GA ever had (god rest his soul) dug his heels firmly in the ground and said that state taxes would not be used to pay for the Olympics with the exceptions of the permanent venues. But to say that big business paid for the whole thing is downright laughable.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Jen:

USinUK, don’t they call it Benefits there?

Well, “benefits” covers a wide range of sins, from council housing (the UK version of Section 8 housing) to unemployment and everything in between.

And, again, our income taxes don’t cover NHS - that comes out of the UK equivalent of Soc Sec.

By lozen

February 8, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

TOJ, you’re a jerk. With your snotty attitude, I can understand the DMV woman giving you the wrong form. And laughing as you took your arrogant self out the door with it. Your “poor-me, I’m such a victim” stance is really getting old. You get back what you put out jerk.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Yes, the city got new venues, but the biggest complaint was the over-commercialization. That meant business, not government. It was the Coca-Cola Olympics. You site a bureaucrat who is demanding that the state NOT pay for the Olympics. Seems that you are proving my point.

Everyone has problems with monopolies. Comcast is the worst, but it is because they are granted the same advantage as the government, an unquestioned monopoly. They just don’t care. There is no reason for them to care. Same is true with most government.

By lozen

February 8, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

Interesting also that TOJ brings up affirmative action in his tirade this morning! I am remembering the person who accused him a week or two ago of being rascist. What does affirmative action have to do with a rude woman at the DMV? Especially since we can all see the attitude he carries around with him all the time right here on this blog! I’m sure if I were in her place I would have been rude too because I’m sure he went in there with an attitude and was rude to her. Poor guy. People are so rude to him here too. For no reason!

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

iozen

I had not even addressed you but I was greeted this morning with a good sample of your whining and nagging.

You need to underswtand that when you write crap like this:

USinUK, you’re great with facts and retorts to Mr. Generalizer. Funny isn’t it? He really gets hot under the collar when people generalize about the repubs. Then he turns around and genralizes more than anybody else about teens - they don’t know if they’re happy or not, people - wouldn’t know happy if it slapped them in the face, gov’t employees - all bad, democrats - all stupid liberals. On and on and on. I was thinking on the way to work this morning - we have been blessed on the blog this week! Now here we go again. Keep up your good work blowing his chauvinism out of the water!

that I will respond and I will rub your ignorant nose in what you write.

If you cannot grow up and live with it, then leave, because i am right here.

You apparently need to hate someone. Every bigoted post that you write is full of nothing but how much you hate someone or something. That is your problem.

But when you turn that ignorance towards me, I am going to be your problem. You apparently hate all men. I am more than proud to be part of that group.

Now let’s hear some more whining, Nag.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

but the biggest complaint was the over-commercialization

stick with the subject, Jack - you said that big business paid for it - It was the Atlanta businesses that built those Olympics, certainly not the government - while they paid for some things, they most certainly did NOT pay for the big-ticket items like the Olympic village, the Dome, etc.

My point was that you can thank Murphy for the state not picking up ALL of the tab

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

lozen

No you bigoted nag. Just because someone brings up the fact that race based hiring is wrong and results in incompetence, just like it did when the white democrats did before the 1960s, does not make them a racist. It makes them a realist.

YOU are the one that supports the party of the KKK, George Wallace and Robert Byrd. I support the Party of Lincoln and Dr. Rice. I also support the teachings of Dr. King who was also a proponent of fair hiring practices.

Grow up, Nag.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

simmer down - you’re being a horse’s patoot.

By Archie

February 8, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

Interesting also that TOJ brings up affirmative action in his tirade this morning! I am remembering the person who accused him a week or two ago of being rascist. What does affirmative action have to do with a rude woman at the DMV? Especially since we can all see the attitude he carries around with him all the time right here on this blog!

I called him racist Lozen and I stand by that.

TOJ, you’re a jerk. With your snotty attitude, I can understand the DMV woman giving you the wrong form. And laughing as you took your arrogant self out the door with it. Your “poor-me, I’m such a victim” stance is really getting old. You get back what you put out jerk.

I agree with everything you said on that Lozen. I have seen that attitude before and typically since it’s a woman waiting on the guy she tries to ignore him and just get him out of there quickly. We had a great discussion for 3 days at least.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Corporate donations paid for the Olympic Village. And they paid almost all the bills. This Olympics actually made money for the city.

As I said there are good governments and bad. Ours stinks. It isn’t as bad as Cities like New Orleans, and I am a big fan of Shirley Franklin. She is competent and she does understand what the city needs, but I know she is also very frustrated trying to get things done.

She cleaned house when she moved in and fired many, many people who were not even coming to work and collecting $100,000 salaries for doing nothing but being friends with Bill Campbell. She has fixed most of that. But she still hasn’t fixed most of the bureaucracies that slow down the city’s progress. That’s not her job.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I was called names yesterday by Lozen. I am sick of it. And as much as I honestly like you, I am sick of you ignoring a rude and confrontational poster because she agrees with your politics.

She is extremely hysterical every day. I did not even address her yesterday. I wrote you a civil post discussing a topic. because of this, I am called names and attacked.

She lives as a horses patoot and no one says a thing. This isn’t a popularity contest, but I won’t be called names by a bigoted nag like lozen.

I like you and I would like to continue our conversations, but if you can’t live with the fact that I will answer in kind to name calling, then do what you need to do.

By NotNews

February 8, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

you’re being a horse’s patoot.

and that is news?

By JokesOn

February 8, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Curious.

Who was in charge of organizing and getting sponsors for the Atlanta Olympics?

I was under the impression that there was a government committee that orchestrated the event and that it was this organization’s wisdom that caused it the first profitable Olympic event in many, many years.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Archie

And I think you are a racist. I think you also hide behind that myth that anyone who dares bring up the horrible race problems we have in this city and in most of the countyry is a racist.

I answered your post this morning with respect for your opinion. But you could not resist the temptation to jump on the bandwagon and start calling unfounded names.

The little respect I had for you quickly went away.

Do you have the strength to talk about a topic without hiding behind dogma?

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

JokesON

You are right. The city (actually the state did a lot more than the city) did organize the effort to raise money and for that, they deserve all the credit they can get.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

you know, if you’re civil with people, they’ll be civil with you - both in this forum and at the DMV. you and I got off to a snarky start, but managed to get beyond it - if you aren’t snarky with lozen (and others), they’ll be nice to you, too. but, quite often, you don’t so much debate as denigrate - and who likes that??

completely off-topic, but while I’m thinking about it - Pink Martini is on tour - check out if they’re coming to ATL.

(back to our regularly scheduled program) as for gov’t - I think you’re tarring ALL gov’t workers unfairly. like I said, there are hundreds/thousands of great people with the DOJ, DHS, DOE, etc who work very hard to make the city and the state great. while I’m sorry you had a hard time with the car tag issue, I really think you’re off-base by extrapolating that experience to be EVERY state/fed worker.

lastly, corporations most certainly did NOT pay for the Olympic Village - the state did (which is why it became the GSU dorms)

By lozen

February 8, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

Yeah Archie, we did have 3 good days this week! Too bad it didn’t last. So how do you feel about the bribe G.W. is giving us? $300 is what I got last time and that’s what I paid in income tax that year! Unfortunately I want to go to Europe and that $300 is only worth $200,it’s $1.50 for a Euro now! This is the cost we pay for a poorly managed government!

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

lozen -

and it’s worth £150 here … that might cover dinner and a west-end show (I can recommend some great dining in Covent Garden)

:-)

By Spalva-oz

February 8, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

http://1.poshlo.com >suzzane russo brass

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

USinUK

you know, if you’re civil with people, they’ll be civil with you - both in this forum and at the DMV. you and I got off to a snarky start, but managed to get beyond it - if you aren’t snarky with lozen (and others), they’ll be nice to you, too. but, quite often, you don’t so much debate as denigrate - and who likes that??

Nope. Not true. I wasn’t even talking to lozen when she lit into me. I was only addressing you. I wrote nothing to no one else and look at the board this morning. I went to the DMV for over a year and went far beyond the women at the counter. They were fine. It was the bureaucrat that sent me away with a different form every week that I resent.

completely off-topic, but while I’m thinking about it - Pink Martini is on tour - check out if they’re coming to ATL.

That’s cool. I will check. My friends are all planning on going to Banarue (?). I’m not impressed with the line-up. Did you check on the 3 Da Bossa arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue?

(back to our regularly scheduled program) as for gov’t - I think you’re tarring ALL gov’t workers unfairly. like I said, there are hundreds/thousands of great people with the DOJ, DHS, DOE, etc who work very hard to make the city and the state great. while I’m sorry you had a hard time with the car tag issue, I really think you’re off-base by extrapolating that experience to be EVERY state/fed worker.

Read what I wrote, girl. I said there are good people, I just have a hard time finding them in Atlanta.

lastly, corporations most certainly did NOT pay for the Olympic Village - the state did (which is why it became the GSU dorms)

I think the lottery paid for that. But I know that Coke was deeply involved in the litigation against the contractors. The dorms are slowly sinking, at least they were.

I have a huge job tomorrow so I will talk to you next week. I need to check all my equipment. Have a good one.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I saw the bride thing. I agree that it is BS. Now what would help us is this:

Give us the money, but if a person owes credit card debt, it automatically goes to pay toward the credit cards. Lack of money is not nearly as big as over extended credit.

But yea, the free money is stupid. Even the economist on FOX are saying it is a horrible thing to do.

By Archie

February 8, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

I don’t know how I feel Lozen about G.W.’s money plans. It was nice to have 3 days of facts and discussion and Lozen, I do stand by what I said TOJ is a racist and I was not the first person to say so. Also how many times have I stated that I don’t live in Atlanta? Lozen,myself and others have explained on numerous occassions why this TOJ character is a racist and we have explained numerous times we don’t have to agree but this guy just doesn’t get it. It’s not a question of jumping on the bandwagon as much as reading your posts. Your posts basically put up a sign saying I am a racist and USinUk really connected dots perfectly. I must compliment her and Lozen because so many people simply can’t connect the dots with politics or anything. Anyway it was nice to discuss national healthcare with USinUk and get some facts from someone that lives in a country with national healthcare. There are people that could benefit from listening to Lozen and USinUk and I wish I could get those two around some people I know so that they could explain the big picture for some of these all-or-nothing democrats.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

I think the lottery paid for that.

Nope - not allowed under GA law at the time (don’t know if it’s changed since then). At the time, GA Lottery could ONLY go to education. period. no exceptions. and dorms didn’t count.

How do I know this??? I used to be a state employee working with the State Leg.

I saw the bride thing. I agree that it is BS. ???? I think I missed something.

if you’re outta here … talk with you next week … have a good weekend.

By lozen

February 8, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

By The Other Jack February 8, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this iozen

I had not even addressed you but I was greeted this morning with a good sample of your whining and nagging. Not true. The second thing on the blog from you this morning after your long booklet (I become more and more convinced you are Chuck) was “I’m glad I make you think. Somebody needs to.” Arrogant jerk!

You need to underswtand that when you write crap like this:

USinUK, you’re great with facts and retorts to Mr. Generalizer. Funny isn’t it? He really gets hot under the collar when people generalize about the repubs. Then he turns around and genralizes more than anybody else about teens - they don’t know if they’re happy or not, people - wouldn’t know happy if it slapped them in the face, gov’t employees - all bad, democrats - all stupid liberals. On and on and on. I was thinking on the way to work this morning - we have been blessed on the blog this week! Now here we go again. Keep up your good work blowing his chauvinism out of the water!

that I will respond and I will rub your ignorant nose in what you write. I was addressing USinUK as you would say. And I’m not ignorant. Does anybody on this blog think I was wrong about you? If you cannot grow up and live with it, then leave, because i am right here. Ha, ha, ha. If you think I’m leaving because of you, you’re an idiot. You apparently need to hate someone. Every bigoted post that you write is full of nothing but how much you hate someone or something. That is your problem. You are actually describing yourself and your posts! Know what transference is, jerk? But when you turn that ignorance towards me, I am going to be your problem. You apparently hate all men. I am more than proud to be part of that group. I don’t hate all men. Just men like you, you arrogant jerk. Now let’s hear some more whining, Nag. You’re the one whining about how bad widdle you were treated for no reason by the mean old black woman at the DMV! And here on this blog I attack you for no reason and USinUK doesn’t side with you, and Archie doesn’t believe your protests about how open minded and non-rascist you really are. If everybody thinks you’re a jerk, people on this blog and people at the DMV, what is the one common factor? YOU!

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

USinUK

No the bribe thing. You know the government check that Bush is sending out. It’s nuts.

$300 to $800 is just enough to make a down payment on something to finance. We don’t need more credit.

I paid off all of my cards after the divorce. My ex is involved in the financial system and we never had a huge amount of debt. I sold my Infinity Q45 and bought an older convertible.

I get about 10 offers a day for cards.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Archie

So now you are a liar and a racist.

I asked you to post a single post where I had said anything racist. You posted some nonsense that had nothing to do with race.

We can all connect the dots, pal. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I believe that you don’t have what it takes to stage an intelligent and civil debate so you fall back on this crap.

Your friend lozen is always pointing out why WHITE MEN are such horrible people. Now that’s being a racist.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

lozen

Nag, nag, nag,

Please don’t tell me that some poor schlock is married to you and is forced to need to deal with this incessant need of yours to nag.

BTW, Until you learn to use that magic return key and try to separate your rants, NONE of it will ever be read by me.

By Archie

February 8, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Your friend lozen is always pointing out why WHITE MEN are such horrible people. Lozen only points out that you are a horrible person. I pointed out to you plenty of times when you posted racist stuff and you did so just this morning. People like you are always in denial but everyone sees what you are. TOJ you are a racist because as I have said before I have dealt with rude customer service people who happen to be black but I mention attitudes not affirmative action. I have dealt with rude white customer service people too but I never mention any snide remark about them. You have made several racist remarks about blacks and democrats and some kind of “plantation mentality”. I ignored those things initially but someone pointed out very astutely just how much a racist you are. You see I can disagree with Lozen,etc and there’s never a dig at color but with you it’s not about disagreement it’s about your racist mentality. There were 3 days of discussion without acrimony but the minute you post problems start. USinUk called you out first then Lozen, then myself because you are a racist jerk.

By lozen

February 8, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Obviously some poor woman wised up and got rid of you, jerk! You just mentioned your ex, one more person who saw what a jerk you are. How come you’ve never accused JokesOn of nagging in your heated discussions with him? Nagging is what women do, not men! Arrogant, rascist, sexist jerk!

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

TOJ -

No the bribe thing. You know the government check that Bush is sending out. It’s nuts. $300 to $800 is just enough to make a down payment on something to finance. We don’t need more credit.

Oh, BRIBE thing … yeah. It was stupid in 2002, it’s stupid now and will do NOTHING to help the pickle the US economy is in.

Frankly, the only thing you can do is 1) do what the fed did and lower rates (but NOT down to 1% like Greenschmuck did) and 2) wait it out. It’s called a business cycle for a reason.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

Archie

The term plantation was first used by Black democrats referring to Black Republicans. So are only Blacks allowed to use the word? That’s pretty racist, if you ask me..

People like you are always in denial

People like you?!?!? And you are calling me a racist? How about finding a single post that I ever said ANYTHING like that. Not an assumption of what you thought I meant but the actual words. Can you do it?

Let’s play your game. These are rules that you and your bigoted friend have invented. It takes nothing but an extreme dislike for another poster and connecting the dots, right?

Well I have connected the dots and have come to the conclusion that you are not only a liar and a racist, but also a wife beater and a child molester.

That’s OK, right? I don’t like you and that’s all that it takes, right? I can connect whatever dots it takes and I can also come to conclusions and I can post them here. Your rules, just playing the game.

If I am a racist, you need to tell my Black business partner of 17 years. If you don’t like the fact that I am bringing that up, you know what you can kiss.

I’m sick of this. I’m sick of having a civil conversation with SOMEBODY ELSE and lozen or you lighting in on me.

Expect the forum to spiral down into this same sh*t every time either of you start a fight. Leave me the hell alone if you do not have the intelligence to leave this crap out of the conversation.

That includes you too, Lozen. You start a fight and I will fight back. Now deal with it.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

JokesOn -

Who was in charge of organizing and getting sponsors for the Atlanta Olympics?

ACOG - The Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games - they did all the sponsorship deals. I believe it was a public-private membership, but I could be wrong.

By Monica

February 8, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

A business cycle, gee what a concept!

A friend of mine told me about someone he heard on a radio talk show about the apparent recession. This speaker pointed out that while people are defaulting on their mortgages, the demand for HDTV’s has gone up, and sales on entertainment systems has increased. His point is that Americans in general aren’t struggling with a lack of funds but a lack of common sense instead. Instant gratification demands a big screen television over a monthly payment to the bank.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

can’t we all just get along???

it’s Friday. it’s nearly Valentine’s Day. share some love!!!

:-)

(all together now, “I can feel it in my fingers … I feel it in my toes … love is all around us … and so the feeling grows”)

heeheehee …

have a great weekend, guys and gals!! see you next week :-)

By lozen

February 8, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Oh, he’s sick of being attacked, poor widdle thing. Archie don’t pick on him. Please ya’ll, let’s all just be nice to the TOJ, the jerk, and ignore his arrogance, his distain of the opinions and politics of others, his racism and his sexism that have dominated this blog for the past month! (I’d love to talk with his business partner, wouldn’t you Archie?) I won’t be called names by a bigoted nag like lozen…. she’s a horses patoot … oh, my god a nag and a horses patoot. A horses patoot!!!!!! I think I heard my grandfather call someone a horses patoot oh, maybe 60 years ago. I am thinking he’s an old jerk. If you cannot grow up and live with it, then leave, because i am right here.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

A friend of mine told me about someone he heard on a radio talk show about the apparent recession. This speaker pointed out that while people are defaulting on their mortgages, the demand for HDTV’s has gone up, and sales on entertainment systems has increased. His point is that Americans in general aren’t struggling with a lack of funds but a lack of common sense instead. Instant gratification demands a big screen television over a monthly payment to the bank.

ummmm … a bit “apples and oranges” on that one. It’s not like the same people who are defaulting on their mortgages are the ones out there buying HDTVs. And, of course sales on HDTVs and entertainment systems has increased - especially over the last 6 months. We just had Christmas and the SuperBowl - two BIG prompts for electronics purchases.

the US isn’t in an official recession, yet (2 quarters of negative growth) - but Q4 growth of 0.8% doesn’t bode well.

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Lozen:

A horses patoot!!!!!! I think I heard my grandfather call someone a horses patoot oh, maybe 60 years ago.

yes, and you heard me use the same expression earlier today trying to get TOJ to simmer down.

it’s a good all-purpose-won’t-get-you-banned expression.

By Monica

February 8, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

That was the guy’s point - that it was the same people buying luxury items. I don’t know how anyone can prove that, but in the area where I teach, I see a definite “misappropriation of funds” by parents. I personally feel that the longer the feds prolong the recession, the worse it will be. How low can interests rates go, anyway?

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Mon -

I personally feel that the longer the feds prolong the recession

well, by “the feds” who do you mean? The Federal Reserve has cut rates to 3%, which will encourage people to get out and refi their house before the resets this year - that will be a huge help.

however, the federal reserve can’t afford to lower the rate too much or it will stoke inflation, which, as the current situation currently stands, is set to moderate in the near-term (of course, that all depends on OPEC).

But, if by “the feds” you mean the federal gov’t, they need to keep their noses out and let the market correct. the “economic stimulus package” won’t do anything except help folks pay their bills for a month.

By Monica

February 8, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

USinUK, I mean government. Sure, I’ll take a tax rebate, but it won’t help the economy the way I will use it (put it in my savings acct).

What do you think about Bush’s plan to dig out those who are in danger of losing their homes to foreclosure?

By USinUK

February 8, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Monica - I’ll take a tax rebate, but it won’t help the economy the way I will use it (put it in my savings acct).

between that and the majority of people who will use it to pay down/off their credit cards, it really won’t make a big impact on the economy. it didn’t in 2002, it won’t now.

the thing that will really stink up the room is that you guys will have to pay for it when you file your 2008 return - this $300 (or whatever) will be counted as income.

surprise!!! (that’s what happened in 2002, as well)

as for the homeowners’ assistance package - well, it’s not as rosey as everyone thinks - not everyone is going to qualify for the lower refi rates. but, like I said earlier, this is where the fed will help by lowering the fed funds rate.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

iozen

Are you just stupid? What is is going to take to convince you to stop nagging? I’m no victim. Obviously any man you meet is your enemy.

Leave me the hell alone. How many men have an order of protection against you?

By Gale

February 8, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

What do you think about Bush’s plan to dig out those who are in danger of losing their homes to foreclosure?

I think it sends a very bad mesage to people who plan their finances responsibly. I don’t like my tax dollars going to assist the stupid and/or greedy people out there spending beyond their means. Speculators (greedy) got caught with their pants down when the bubble burst. Stupid people decided they could afford a home way outside their ability to pay. I see no reason our tax dollars should be bailing these people out. Really, why should we help those people keep what they should not have bought in the first place? Does anyone really want to take money out of their own pocket and hand it to someone else to cover their mortgage? Maybe if it was a disaster that put the home in peril like Katrina.

By kimberly

February 8, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Oh. No. He. Did. NOT….. call lozen “nag!”

It’s clear that somebody hides out on this blog all day because he has somebody in the real world nagging him. It’s called “transference,” Dude. Get help.

By Archie

February 8, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

The thing is Lozen, I told him what he did today and he still didn’t get it and so did USinUk. Total idiocy and total denial and a total bigot. We had 3 whole days of good discussion then this racist shows up… Lozen we don’t even know if what he says is true about his business partner. So much of what he says has been factually inaccurate that I ignore it most of the time.

There are some other people I really wish Lozen and USinUk could talk to about big picture and help them to connect the dots. There are people that will not vote for a woman to be in charge of the country,period and they are willing to forego improving the country just for that reason. It would not matter which party the woman ran under these people would not vote for her but they would look for excuses that mean nothing. There are some people that don’t know there are 3 branchs of government.

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

ATTENTION FORUM. IS THERE ANYONE THAT WILL EXPLAIN TO ARCHIE AND LOZEN THAT I AM ONLY POSTING WHEN THEY CONTINUE TO BIT*H AND WHINE ABOUT ME. I DID NOT START THIS AND THEY ARE CONTINUING THIS NONSENSE. I DID NOT WANT OR START THIS AND I WANT IT TO STOP.

Archie

What an ignorgant as*hole. What’s it going to take?

You whine about this forum being a forum for pis*ing contests and then you just cannot shut your ignorant mouth.

Leave me out of your whining. Leave me alone.

I get that you don’t like me. It’s no surprise. You are dumb as a rock and the only thing you can do is whine and complain about me.

YOU ARE RUINING THIS FORUM WITH YOUR CONSTANT CRAP. You atsrted this and now you will not shut up. Now you will whine like the little bit*h you are about how I am ruining the forum.

Now go beat your wife.

Is this what you want? You want this to be a middle school playground?

I can post as long as you. You want me to stop posting, then shut up about me.

By Copyleft

February 8, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

And now he threatens to hijack the blog with nasty spamming (as if the current spam weren’t bad enough) if people “don’t treat me nice.”

Are we SURE this OtherJack loser isn’t Bruno, Dog, etc., back under yet another disguise?

By The Other Jack

February 8, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Kimberly

LOL And yet another Doctor Phil. Do you have a degree in internet forum psychology? You sound like such an expert.

Yes, she is a nag. Look at her posts to me today.

And yes I check the forum when I check my email. Is that OK?

I didn’t start this. I started with a civil discussion with USinUK and answered a post by Archie with respect and civility. Surprise me and actually trace the path of this discussion instead of just mouthing off. Too much to ask?

If I had any idea that you were interested in any sort of fairness, I would be concerned about your post.

I’m not concerned about your post.

By Monica

February 8, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Well, it seems as if everyone has forgotten the Number 1 blogging rule: Don’t feed the trolls.

By CloseCall

February 8, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

Are we SURE this OtherJack loser isn’t Bruno, Dog, etc., back under yet another disguise?

Vehicles are different, otherwise I would think that as well.

By CloseCall

February 8, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

plus DOG would have been too cheap to splurge on a Infinity Q45, in spite of his billions.

By kimberly

February 8, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Serious anger issues too, clearly stemming from unresolved relationship trauma with Mother.

By Alexvqj

February 8, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

http://1.poshlo.com >suzzane russo brass

By Archie

February 8, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Hello Monica, you said don’t feed the trolls and you’re right but I felt as though USinUK was speaking the truth and so was Lozen. It was Lozen who mentioned something I said weeks ago and I just stood by it. Copyleft just called the guy a loser and Kimberly mentions anger issues. Well I can infer that most folk here think the guy is a first class jerk. The blog was almost like it used to be for 3 days. I used to disagree with Lozen and agree with her on the same blog and never get into any namecalling or feel like she was a nutcase. I have even disagreed with Lyrazel,who is one my favorites, yet the discussion was civil because there were no snide slurs or anything of the sort. Let me say this I conservative friends and one of them is a homophobe. I told him that to his face so I believe in being frank whether I like you or not.

By lozen

February 8, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

Oh yes, Kimberly, serious control and anger issues. HE’S NOW YELLING AT US because he doesn’t get his way. It’s a five year old temper tantrum! None of it is ever his responsibility. He’s such a nice guy and we just pick on him. I’m a nag and a b*** and Archie’s a liar, a racist, a btch and an a*hole and you! You’re not interested in fairness Kimberly! USinUK doesn’t jump me to defend him … because I agree with her politics, not because he is a jerk. Waaaaahhhhhh! JokesOn, you were right. It is fun to poke the troll sometimes! I know you’re right Monica. I just can’t help myself today. If he can’t grow up and live with it he should leave, because we’re right here! (If it’s not Dog, it’s his evil twin.)

By kistov

February 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

http://index1.bestmaiden.com >postmasters assigned in fl

By kistov

February 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

http://index1.bestmaiden.com >postmasters assigned in fl

By Spalva-oa

February 8, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes

By Spalva-oa

February 8, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes

By Spalva-oa

February 8, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes

By Spalva-hy

February 8, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes

By Spalva-hy

February 8, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes

By Spalva-hy

February 8, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this

http://1.mastr6.com >portland zip codes