Woman to Woman

By serega

January 27, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

http://index1.etitv.com >calcium carbonicum

By NetBanker

January 28, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

Well I’m going to assume that something is very wrong with the posting because there isn’t a single response. To be honest, I don’t see a whole lot of difference in what the 2 columnists are saying when you get right down to it. It seems apparent that both sides are saying a mult-prong strategy is what is needed.

I do think there is one ‘fallacy’ (I can’t quite find the right word I’m looking for) in Shaunti’s statement “that alone won’t protect us from a terrorist driving a suitcase nuke into Manhattan. For that, we need guards, guns and gates.” In order to protect Manhattan from the scenario Shaunti offers one would need guards, guns, and gates to stop and search every single vehicle and individual entering the city via every mode of transportation (plane, motor vehicle, train, and boat). This is simply a physical impossibility without destruction of the local economy due to paralysis given the volume of people and vehicles with all those modes of transportation and all those bridges and tunnels. It would be akin to creating a giant “Gaza Strip” or “West Bank” in NYC.

By The Other Jack

January 28, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

Al Qaeda plans to wage both economic and literal war on us; let’s not fall into their trap by spending millions on creating a police state on the level of North Korea.

This kind of statement is unreal. Has Andrea been out of her house in the last 15 years?

I appears that both people see that America has enemies. Shanti sees our enemies as radicals from foreign countries that want to continue what they have done in the past. Andrea sees the country’s enemies as Republicans. And she invents something to inspire fear, not against our real enemies, but instead against the group of people who see our nation’s politics differently than she does.

Obama claims that he wants to bring our country back together. He actually had me for a minute. All the ideas he has are great. I was actually thinking about voting Democratic for the first time since I started voting in 1976. And then I watched him on ABCs Sunday morning political show. On that show, I saw him first claim that “unison” platform, and then I saw him do everything he could to try and explain that he had not spoke favorably of Ronald Reagan, while in fact he had. He is already lying about what he is willing to do. So why on earth would anyone believe any of the other promises he is making?

Republicans see our country’s enemies as our country’s enemies. Democrats seem to think that our country has no enemies that a good “talking to” can’t fix. They see Republicans as the enemy. And apparently the only Democratic candidate that says he wants to unify the country is already lying about it.

By Snidely Buttright

January 28, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

netbanker, she also says that the people of other countries “hate us so blindly, based on so many warped and inaccurate views,” when in reality it’s been our meddling in THEIR business and our interfering in THEIR politics that have shaped their views.

Consider Iran. In the early years after WW2, they held elections and democratically chose themselves a leader. He wouldn’t toe the Washington line so our government toppled him, installed the Shah, and provided the new government with aid and support. Look where that got us. Same thing with other middle eastern countries. Although we may not have actually toppled those governments we certainly pressured them, bribed them, and threatened them to push them the way we wanted them to go. Just as we did with the Central and South American countries. From our training the Death Squads from Chile and Columbia to our willingness to allow weapons sales to anyone with the cash to pay for them, our actions have often been contrary to our words.

Between the coups, the assassinations, the payoffs, the spying and all that, it’s really a testament to the charm of the American citizens (as opposed to the American government, a distinction that most people emphasize) and the strength of the American ideal that MORE of the world doesn’t hate us.

By Pertinent Quote of the Day

January 28, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that. ……MLK, Jr.

By JokesOn

January 28, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Snidely Buttright,

None of that sympathizer talk in here man! The imperialist machine must keep rolling! No compromising or reflection of our actions are allowed, for that shows weakness. (beats chest and growls)

By Quotor

January 28, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Democracy is a Great Idea, just as long as you vote the USA’s way

By Archie

January 28, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

My answer to the topic question is yes and our leaders need counselling on the subject of fear and prejudice. Not everbody that’s not american hates americans to the point of violence. Most non-americans don’t want to do anything to americans but of course terrorists do want to harm americans and it may be a better strategy to actually identify the enemy rather than just bombing a country and then justifying such a bombing with a lie. America did business with the guy that is now accused of mass murder of american citizens so we know who the enemy is and we need to be honest about our dealings with people like that.

By JokesOn

January 28, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

Obama’s Quote:

Read it all again if you want, you won’t find “better” or “good” in there, or synonyms or implications along those lines.

By Troglodyke

January 28, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Am I alone in my thinking (slightly OT here) that trying to create “democracy” in Islamic states like Iraq and Iran is doomed to fail?

I mean, the people say they want democracy, and democracy sounds good. But is it ever possible in regimes like that?

Let’s let the people vote on their leaders. OK, who to choose from? The radical Muslim fundamentalist, or the even-more-radical Muslim fundamentalist?

Would any potential elected leader in those countries actually be able to rule democratically? I seriously doubt it.

Anyone who appeared poised to change the status quo would be assassinated either before the election, or soon into his regime. Witness the Bhutto murder. That woman had no chance.

Muslim fanatics do not want democracy. The majority of the population in those countries may want it, but the fanatics rule.

Does that mean we stay completely out of their politics and turn a blind eye to the problems of the citizenry? I don’t think so, but it seems to me that instilling democracy just isn’t going to work. At least, democracy in the form we know and cherish isn’t.

Fundamentalist Xtians in the U.S. aren’t crazy about pure democracy, but they are way more into it than fundamentalist Muslims in majority Muslim countries.

By Snidely Buttright

January 28, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

JokesOn, but Obama DIDN’T call St. Ronnie names or minimize his impact on the country. To those who agree with the idea that “if you aren’t for us, then you are against us” the opposite must also be true; “If you are not AGAINST Ronnie, you must be FOR Ronnie.” See? Obama must looovvveee Reagan, he’s just too much of a liar to admit it. :)

By NonFacts

January 28, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Man, don’t confuse people with what Obama ACTUALLY SAID:

it is obvious, per the media and people(BC?) talking, that he:

dang. man.

By late to the party

January 28, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

Jerry Curry for president! Check him out at www.curryforamerica.com

By Copyleft

January 28, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Terrorists can only threaten lives and property. To truly bring down America, you need to destroy it from the inside.

Thus, the concern over our internal enemies of freedom (such as the entire Bush administration, and everyone who signed the PNAC) is entirely appropriate. They’re our country’s enemies as much as terrorists are, if not more so.

By NetBanker

January 28, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

Andrea sees the country’s enemies as Republicans. Really? I don’t see where she mentioned the administration, Republicans, or Bush at all in her post. And somewhere along the line Osama bin Laden also did intimate that part of the Al Qaida strategy is an economic one by “bleeding us”. Think about the impact this lovely war is having on the short and long-term financial health of the U.S. Not only are we in outrageously more debt, but the cost of oil has shot up in part due (although not entirely) to instability concerns in the region that started with the war. So economically we’re further impacted while the Muslims regimes are stuffing their coffers full of money.

Trog…instilling democracy just isn’t going to work. At least, democracy in the form we know and cherish isn’t. Here in lies the trap of spreading democracy…which goes hand-in-hand with a ‘be careful what you wish for.’ The double-edged part of democracy for the U.S. is that people may freely elect leaders who are not friendly or supportive of the U.S. or our positions. Just look at what happened in the last Palestinian elections where Hamas made major gains in an election whose results were not contested or considered corrupt. There seems to be an assumption on the part of Americans that if we bring democracy to a people then they will vote the way we want them to instead of the way those people think will be best for them.

And who says that our version of democracy is the best anyway? Rather than voting for the most qualified person based on experience or even the person whose policy positions best match up with one’s own, Americans seem to vote for the person they like the best based on impressions.

By USinUK

January 28, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

Trog - I disagree with you that Iran and Iraq are incapable of democracy. Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government. Then, we invaded and the mullahs were able to bang the drum of “western imperialism” and Ahmadenijad was elected.

Democracy is entirely possible there - but it can’t be installed like a DVD drive in your computer. It can’t come from the top-down and from outside in. It has to bubble up from the people and it HAS to be from the inside.

By The Other Jack

January 28, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Jimmy Carter turned his back on Mohammed Reza Pahlavi during his administration. Mohammed Reza Pahlavi is sometimes called the Shaw of Iran, but Shaw just means monarch. There have been many Shaws of Iran. Pahlavi was supported by the British and Americans because of the fact that his predecessor had Nationalized the British funded oil industry, basically taking over all western investments in all aspects of the industry. In order to protect the Western investments, the British and Americans covertly installed a leader that would protect Western investments in Iran.

Mohammed Reza Pahlavi had asked Carter for permission and help to hold down the religious rights of Muslim extremists. Carter would not allow this. This started the reign of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei who is still the supreme leader of the Iranian military and basically the real leader of the Iranian government.

We have had horrible relationships with Iran since the 1980s. But now you claim that it is all about the Iraq war that we don’t get along.

A burgeoning Iranian middle class is still there. It is being held down just like it had been held down since Ayatollah Ali Khamenei gained power.

If there was one man that was hated in Iran, it was Saddam Hussan. But you claim that by taking him out of power, an anti-American president was elected.

So exactly who do you think would have been elected if we had not gone to war in Iraq? Do you think he would have been a pro-western leader? Without our invasion of Iran’s sworn enemy, do you believe that the Iranian middle class would have had the ability to put anyone in power that would be against the wishes of the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei who has had nothing but murderous contempt for our country?

This is another attempt at saying that history started in 2001 and every country that we don’t get along with, all loved us until Bush took office.

By Copyleft

January 28, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

The one strategy that hasn’t been tried, that all the Arab world has been asking for, is “Staying the heck out of their land.”

Why do you suppose that’s never even been considered?

By kimberly

January 28, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

Americans seem to vote for the person they like the best based on impressions.

Good point, NetB, but I think as a whole, Americans vote for whomever launches the most well-funded, clever advertising campaign. Just as Americans think the stuff in paper wrappers from McDonald’s is food, Budweiser is beer, juice-like beverages are juice, and that they should ask their doctor if that new pill is right for them, Americans think the garbage they hear on TV reflects reality. D’OH! Marketing and advertising are the soul and spirit of 21st-Century America, and the election process is no different.

Until we remove money from elections, we’ll never really know the real qualifications or positions of our candidates, nor will the most qualified people actually get a chance to run or be heard. Ain’t gonna happen.

By kimberly

January 28, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

CopyLeft at 12:31 and 1:58,

Copy that, over.

By Newzwyre

January 28, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

What The Other Jack doesn’t say is that Pahlavi had abdicated the office of Shah and power was, for a time, held by the “National Front of Iran”, an organization founded to establish democracy and end the influence of foreigners in Iranian politics; especially the influence of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

Once the Iranians kicked B.P. out of their country, they changed their economy from somewhat fuedal style agriculture to a more collectivist/community type system. The Anglo-American “Operation Ajax” was the obvious result. Eventually the western plot to depose Mossadegh was successful and the Shah Pahlavi was reinstated to power and an agreement was soon reached with the oil companies to resume their business. And eventually led to the Iranian Revolution in ‘79.

The extent of the U.S.’s role in Mossadegh’s overthrow was not formally acknowledged for many years, although the Eisenhower administration was quite vocal in its opposition to the policies of the ousted Iranian Prime Minister. Eventually the CIA’s role became well-known, and caused controversy within the organization itself, and within the CIA congressional hearings of the 1970s.

In March 2000, then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stated her regret that Mossadegh was ousted: “The Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons. But the coup was clearly a setback for Iran’s political development and it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America.”

Despite TOJ protests, we DID plant the seeds of the Iranian Revolution and, ultimately, the rise of the Ayatollah’s and the Islamic Republic of Iran

By Jack

January 28, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

NAFTA is doin a good number on us too.

By Monica

January 28, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

*Just as Americans think the stuff in paper wrappers from McDonald’s is food, Budweiser is beer, juice-like beverages are juice, and that they should ask their doctor if that new pill is right for them, Americans think the garbage they hear on TV reflects reality. D’OH! Marketing and advertising are the soul and spirit of 21st-Century America, and the election process is no different.

Until we remove money from elections, we’ll never really know the real qualifications or positions of our candidates, nor will the most qualified people actually get a chance to run or be heard. Ain’t gonna happen.*

Well-said Kimberly. I read that Rudy has spent 1 mil per week on advertising. That makes me sick!

To be an American president, you must: 1) be an American citizen 2) be at least 35 3) have more money than God

By Troglodyke

January 28, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

To be an American president, you must: 1) be an American citizen 2) be at least 35 3) have more money than God*

You forgot, 4.) Pay lip service to that god in public

By Big Corporate Dog

January 28, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Newzwyre

Despite TOJ protests, we DID plant the seeds of the Iranian Revolution and, ultimately, the rise of the Ayatollah’s and the Islamic Republic of Iran

Once again: Please read what I write. Not what you think I write. Did you read this:

*In order to protect the Western investments, the British and Americans covertly installed a leader that would protect Western investments in Iran.

That is actually from my post. I actually said that we were involved in the Iranian Revolution.

My point was that USinUK seemed to think that our problems with Iran stemmed from the invasion of their arch enemy, Iraq. My point, much like your own point was that we had a constant conflict with Iran since long before either Bush was in office.

The frustration here is not that anyone counters my points, but that no one seems to comprehend my points.

By Archie

January 28, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

JokesOn it does sound like Obama praised Reagan just reading the quote you read. I mean when you say party of ideas that sounds complimentary. I don’t think it’s a lie to say Obama praised Reagan and he knows that. I do like Obama but I have a problem with some of his campaign tactics. I was in the same place as Obama on friday night and I didn’t like what he did and I can’t expound on it because other folk are involved.

By JokesOn

January 28, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

I mean when you say party of ideas that sounds complimentary.

I do not see how one can take it that way given he clarifies it by saying “in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom,” and he could not have even been talking about Reagan since he gave a time frame of 15yrs.

I agree that if listened to superficially one walk away with that feeling.

I was in the same place as Obama on friday night and I didn’t like what he did and I can’t expound on it because other folk are involved.

I have my ignore ears on….lets hear it.

By Archie

January 28, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

JokesOn I am concerned because I have been hearing people say that if Obama does not win they are leaving the party and I think that’s crazy. It as if people have forgotten about Iraq war,healthcare,crime sentencing, and the other issues. People seem to be voting for a man and not the ideas and that sounds like a cultish mentality. If Hillary wins I expect Obama supporters to logically vote for her in the general election because if he wins I will definitely support him in the general election. If I can be that objective as a black man I don’t understand why so many Obama supporters can’t be objective. The issues are what’s important not dislike of like of a person. Some of the stuff said about Hillary is ridiculous, I mean you have people evaluating why the WOMAN cried as if women don’t cry. I am all about the issues and my political beliefs not the personalities. Obama crashed a party friday night and I did not think it was appropiate but that won’t stop me from voting for him in November.

By JokesOn

January 28, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

People seem to be voting for a man and not the ideas and that sounds like a cultish mentality.

I agree. We have enough of the “all or nothing/my way or highway” mentality as it is.

By lozen

January 28, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

We live together, you and I, in a dark time when all official history is propaganda. If you want truth, you have to struggle for it. ~John Taylor Gatto

By kimberly

January 28, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

Archie, good point! The attack stuff has gotten almost as ridiculous as the wh-o-re media’s spinning of it. Ditto JokesOn. (Nice quote, Loz!) Let’s get off the “with us or against us” merry-go-round. All three Democratic frontrunners bring something respectable to the table this year. Let’s reflect on what matters to us, and more importantly, who will be able to stand up to the slime machine and win in November. (The GOP has proven time and again that no trick is too low, slimy, or feces laden for their employ, lest we forget.) By the time summer gets here, we’d best be on the same side of the fence, because there will only be two choices, and four more years of a Republican executive branch raping the Constitution and Treasury for fun and profit is not acceptable.

By Big Corporate Dog

January 29, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Kimberly

(The GOP has proven time and again that no trick is too low, slimy, or feces laden for their employ,

I forgive you for your hate. You can’t help it. You belong to the party of hate. Without hate the democrats wouldn’t exist. It is satisfying to watching liberals as they are shocked at the trailer trash, slimy tactics of the Clintons. Everyone but liberals saw these despicable habits as far back as 1992. It’s good that even the most liberal democrat now sees what the rest of the world has clearly seen for so very long.

I urge you and others to join the peace and love of the Party that fought against the racist democrats in freeing all Americans.

Go in peace, I forgive you for your hate.

By Big Corporate Dog

January 29, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

Monica

To be an American president, you must: 1) be an American citizen 2) be at least 35 3) have more money than God

Unfortunately, advertising costs a lot of mpney. TV stations live and die by that money and even though candidates get a special rate at many stations, they still need to pay the price.

McCain/Feingold would have fixed the problem except for the provision that any candidate can fund his or her own campaign. There’s always that loop hole.

I personally am much more concerned with lobby money. It corrupts Washington. It also always goes to the party in charge. Look for almost no mention of that money stream during these elections.

There are far too many politicians going to Washington with great ideas and not much money, and then going back home as jaded millionaires.

By USinUK

January 29, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

BCD - or TOJ - or whoever you are today …

As Uncle Ronnie would say, “Well, there you go again.”

My point was that USinUK seemed to think that our problems with Iran stemmed from the invasion of their arch enemy, Iraq.

I said nothing of the sort. Trog said she was wondering if democracy was possible in Iran or Iraq, to which I replied that they were beginning to make progress prior to our invasion of Iraq. There was a growing middle class and there was a growing student movement to take the country away from the Ayatollah-age. The mullahs were able to bang their drums when we invaded Iraq and say that this was “western imperialism”.

I said nothing about our relationship with Iran, sanctions, hostages, coups or anything about feelings one way or another. So, no, I never said that our problems with Iran started in 2003, I was just addressing Trog’s statement.

As for your loose history of Iran, you’re close but not quite there. When the ShaH (not ShaW) was politely asked to leave the country, the Ayatollah KhOmeini was the leader of the Iranian Revolution who then became the supreme leader, not the Ayatollah KhAmeni - and KhOmeini died in 1989.

Which leads to my last 2 points: 1) The Iranian Revolution refers to the deposing of the Shah in 1979, not the CIA-led coup of the prime minister back in the 1950s. We planted the seeds for the revolution, all right, but not in the way I think you think we did.

2) Just before Carter was elected, the Shah banned all opposition parties and pretty much became as bad as Saddam Hussein with his policies of torturing/killing political prisoners. So, yeah, Carter did a diplomatic dance around him and didn’t throw in the full weight of the White House behind his reign. For good reason - and let’s look at what happened when he DID show some support to the Shah: The US embassy personnel were taken hostage for 400-some-odd days because Carter allowed the Shah into the US for medical treatment.

By Newzwyre

January 29, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Interesting. Without JFK and the generosity of the Kennedy Foundation, Obama Sr. would never have gotten the opportunity to study in the U.S., he would never have met his Kansas-born wife-to-be, Barack would never have been born, and we might be calling Hillary Clinton’s presidency “inevitable”. Funny how these things work.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections08/barackobama/story/0,,2238701,00.html

The bond began with Kenyan labour leader Tom Mboya, an advocate for African nationalism who helped his country gain independence in 1963. In the late 1950s, Mboya was seeking support for a scholarship program that would send Kenyan students to US colleges…Mboya appealed to the state department. When that trail went cold, he turned to then-senator Kennedy

Kennedy, who chaired the senate subcommittee on Africa, arranged a $100,000 grant through his family’s foundation to help Mboya keep the program running.

“It was not a matter in which we sought to be involved,” Kennedy said in an August 1960 senate speech. “Nevertheless, Mr Mboya came to see us and asked for help, when none of the other foundations could give it, when the federal government had turned it down quite precisely. We felt something ought to be done.”

One of the first students airlifted to America was Barack Obama Sr, who married a white Kansas native named Ann Dunham during his US studies. Their son, born in 1961 and named for his father, has only once mentioned his Kennedy connection on the campaign trail.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Thanks for taking the time, but there is nothing there I disagree with, except the 1951 Iranian Revolution was one of many revolution that took place in Iran.

However you didn’t answer the question.

You wrote this:

Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government. Then, we invaded and the mullahs were able to bang the drum of “western imperialism” and Ahmadenijad was elected.

I call that nonsense. If you weren’t saying that the invasion of the Iran’s arch enemy caused the mullahs to discourage the election of a pro-western leader, what were you saying?

Are you going to stand behind your statement and explain who they would have elected instead, or are you going to run away?

By USinUK

January 29, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ -

Um, excuse me, but run away? Please, don’t embarass yourself.

If you weren’t saying that the invasion of the Iran’s arch enemy caused the mullahs to discourage the election of a pro-western leader, what were you saying? That’s exactly what I was saying - the invasion paved the way for Ahmadinajad’s election.

What I was NOT saying was that the US and Iran were fine and dandy friends before that - which is what you said I said.

As for who would have won - Iran had been going through western-style reform since the election of Mohammad Khatami in 1997 - to put it bluntly, the people had had enough of the Ayatollahs. Khatami won the presidential vote and the reform movement was reinforced by a victory in the 2000 parliamentary elections.

After that, the Conservatives did what they could to block a lot of the Reformists plans, and the people started to grow frustrated at progress not being made, deciding not to vote at all in a city election in early 2003. Turnout in the 2004 election was better than expected, but only by about 10% - the people voted Conservative because of the mullahs’ “western imperialism” cries and because Khatami’s gov’t wasn’t doing what it promised to do.

By kimberly

January 29, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Good morning TOJ, and bless you. You are too kind. So… there will be no “swiftboating” this year by the GOP? That’s GREAT news! Many of us soldier-loving Americans were horrified by the party’s trashing of a combat veteran’s record to facilitate the election of one who was nowhere near a combat zone. And the fact that eligible voters were purged from the rolls along with felons on order of the state’s head Bush committee gal and denied their right to vote. And how Bush campaigners torpedoed a fellow GOP’er by calling voters in South Carolina to report McCain fathered “a black baby.” And even going farther back, when the Honorable Gov. Ann Richards was branded a lesbian (not that there’s anything wrong with that) by a younger Rove man in Texas.

That is indeed GREAT news! No more slimy stuff from the GOP. We can all look forward to an honest debate this year; thanks TOJ!

By oOo

January 29, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

kimberly, you left out the mail campaign in Arkansas and West Virginia, when the Reublican National Commitee claimed that “liberals would ban the bible”, or the smearing of Max Cleland, or…

But what are facts to someone who self-righteously names democrats the “party of hate” and then goes on to froth and the mouth and call them every ugly name possible?

Poke the troll, people - poke the troll.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

By USinUK

That’s exactly what I was saying - the invasion paved the way for Ahmadinajad’s election. As for who would have won - Iran had been going through western-style reform since the election of Mohammad Khatami in 1997 - to put it bluntly, the people had had enough of the Ayatollahs. Khatami won the presidential vote and the reform movement was reinforced by a victory in the 2000 parliamentary elections.

Katami’s efforts to open relations with neighboring countries is well documented, but his continued actions against the West is also well documented. He was certainly no friend to America.

But we were discussing the 2005 elections.

The FACTS state that there were only seven that were allowed to run out of the thousands of original candidates. The “Guardian Council” had disqualified all but the final seven.

The Guardian Council is elected by the Majlis who are nominated by the Head of the Judicial Power, who is appointed by the Supreme Leader: The Ayatollah.

Of that seven, there was a run-off between a past president of Iran: Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, an Islamic Conservative and Ahmadinejad. So the person that lost to Ahmadinejad was not only an Islamic Conservative, he had already proven a record that had alienated most of Europe and particularly America.

So where is that pro-western leader that you claim was not elected because of US policies? The other five candidates had all passed the smell test of the Ayatollah so if you want to believe they were pro-western, you must not have been paying attention during the past 30 years.

After that, the Conservatives did what they could to block a lot of the Reformists plans, and the people started to grow frustrated at progress not being made, deciding not to vote at all in a city election in early 2003. Turnout in the 2004 election was better than expected, but only by about 10% - the people voted Conservative because of the mullahs’ “western imperialism” cries and because Khatami’s gov’t wasn’t doing what it promised to do.

Actually, Iranians took great pride in the turn out of 2005. There was no election of 2004. The turnout for the run-off was slightly lower than the general election (62.66%), but still managed 59.6% of the total population. I don’t know where you got 10%, but I also don’t know where you got that the US’s actions prevented a pro-western candidate from becoming president.

The bottom line is that the Ayatollah personally picks the candidates. If you believe the Ayatollah is going to allow a pro-western candidate, like I said, you have just not been paying attention.

By HeeHaw

January 29, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

No more slimy stuff from the GOP. We can all look forward to an honest debate this year; thanks TOJ!

I hope no one is holding their breath. That sounds like a recipe for someone’s quick unhealthy demise.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

kimberly

I can’t guarantee that there will not be another conservative group that wants to tell the truth about the Democratic candidates. I will assure you that there will be no Republican George Soros who is financing hundreds of slimy organizations to stage trashy and untrue attacks on the opposition. Did the British government ever arrest Soros for trying to devalue the pound in order to destabilize the British government and make him billions? I know they and the French both have legal cases against him.

Your interpretation of the dishonestly of the election process is hilarious, considering you support the Democrats. Unions have already been caught, trying to alter the Democratic run-offs.

If you would like to go further back, maybe we could discuss Papa Kennedy’s relationship to the Chicago Mafia. And their influence in the illegal vote counting in that state.

Slippery slope, girl. You support one slimy party.

But I forgive you.

By Omar

January 29, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

I am sure that TOJ will say that the smear campaigns came from the Clintons and their administration. And just sure as I have brown eyes, he will bring up Ron Brown and all of the stuff during the Clinton Administration.

And then he will say that liberals or “progressives” are nasty, call Conservatives names, etc.

Plus, we will hear about the blacks being duped into the Democratic party and the lies they spread. He certainly won’t understand why somebody would vote for a racist party.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

oOo

If you have a problem with what I am claiming, please present proof that will counter those arguments. It is no surprise that you don’t like me. But try to grow up a little a address issues.

K?

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Omar

Thanks. Other than the idea that you could read my mind, everything you say is true, except the “duping” part.

So why would anyone vote for the party of George Wallace and Robert Byrd?

By USinUK

January 29, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ

He was certainly no friend to America fercryingoutloud. why do you keep banging on about relations between Iran and the US when that’s not what anyone is talking about? well, no one apart from you, anyway. The conversation was about democracy and if it’s possible in Iran/Iraq.

And, yes, there were parliamentary elections in 2004 - Feb 2004, to be precise.
And, yes, there was a presidential candidate in 2005 that was in a run-off with Ahmadenijad - Rafsanjani - who protrayed himself as more of a centrist and was expected to capture the reformist votes. In fact, Rafsanjani was leading in the polls and won the first round of voting before the run-off.

So, please get with the conversation - this is about whether or not countries in the middle east can become viable democracies, not whether or not they have friendly relations with the US.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

By USinUK

fercryingoutloud. why do you keep banging on about relations between Iran and the US when that’s not what anyone is talking about? well, no one apart from you, anyway. The conversation was about democracy and if it’s possible in Iran/Iraq.

Did you write this: As for who would have won - Iran had been going through western-style reform since the election of Mohammad Khatami in 1997 - to put it bluntly, the people had had enough of the Ayatollahs. Khatami won the presidential vote and the reform movement was reinforced by a victory in the 2000 parliamentary elections.

What about that referred to Democracy? It is bad enough that you spout this Solon.com nonsense that you can’t defend, but this constant attempt at insulting me is just making you look foolish and uninformed.

And, yes, there were parliamentary elections in 2004 - Feb 2004, to be precise.

You try to make a case that I am not staying on topic, but out of a conversation about presidential elections which you started, ou try to divert to parliamentary elections. We were discussing the presidential election in Iran.

And, yes, there was a presidential candidate in 2005 that was in a run-off with Ahmadenijad - Rafsanjani - who protrayed himself as more of a centrist and was expected to capture the reformist votes.

A centrist in Iran is not a pro-western candidate. How many times do I need to ask you to defend the nonsense you posted? What about this man that never made any attempt to mend relations with the west do you think is Pro-western?

So, please get with the conversation - this is about whether or not countries in the middle east can become viable democracies, not whether or not they have friendly relations with the US.

No. The discussion is about homeland security. I was calling you on an absolutely ridicules statement that you had made in regard to the manipulation of the Iranian Presidential elections. Have you forgotten already? Do I need to yet again post what you wrote?

You still refuse to answer the question about who was the Pro-western candidate. I have spent the time to do the research and apparently you can’t dispute it. So I am pleased to learn that you actually learned something to dispute the propaganda you are fed every day. For that, I am a happy dude.

Thanks

By Snidely Buttright

January 29, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

USinUK, it sort of is about whether countries in the middle east (or latin america ftm) have friendly relations with the US because that if they DON’T, there’s a good chance that our government wouldn’t hesitate to sabotage the bugeoning democractic movement.

By USinUK

January 29, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ:

No, actually, the original question was:

By Troglodyke January 28, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this Am I alone in my thinking (slightly OT here) that trying to create “democracy” in Islamic states like Iraq and Iran is doomed to fail?

I mean, the people say they want democracy, and democracy sounds good. But is it ever possible in regimes like that?

To which I replied:

Trog - I disagree with you that Iran and Iraq are incapable of democracy. Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government. Then, we invaded and the mullahs were able to bang the drum of “western imperialism” and Ahmadenijad was elected.

Democracy is entirely possible there - but it can’t be installed like a DVD drive in your computer. It can’t come from the top-down and from outside in. It has to bubble up from the people and it HAS to be from the inside.

So, yes, the conversation was and is about Democracy. Not about whether Iran is pro-US - no matter how many times you try to misquote me.

By Snidely Buttright

January 29, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Beat that dead horse! Beat it!!! Movin’ on is for wussie-liberal! Harp! Harp on that there out-of-context sentence. Harp on it d@mn yer eyes!!! heee-YAHHHH!!

(/snark)

By USinUK

January 29, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Snidely - true, that. which, unfortunately, we’ve done already in Iran, back in the 1950s.

By oOo

January 29, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Apparently naming various examples of scurrilous campaign behavior by Republicans doesn’t qualify as proof that will counter those arguments, even when the argument is that Democrats are evil maligners and Republicans are injured do-gooders.

How can you argue with that kind of logic?

By Jack

January 29, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

So why would anyone vote for the party of George Wallace and Robert Byrd?

The Republicans haven’t done a very good job now have they? Each party takes turns screwing up, they get booted out, and we go through it again. When we get a true conservative in office maybe things will get better. But it won’t happen because of greed.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

USinUK

You made a statement which you can’t support. I called you on that and now you are avoiding supporting that statement. For that, I compliment you. At least you understand when you have made a mistake.

The topic this week is Is Homeland Security Too Focused on “Guns, Guards and Gates”?

If you were really concerned with staying on topic, you would have stayed on the topic of the blog.

Now that you have been proven wrong, is there anything else?

By oOo

January 29, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Speaking of staying on topic, I present to you Other Big Dog Corporate Jack’s first post “on topic”. Absorb the hypocrisy…

I appears that both people see that America has enemies. Shanti sees our enemies as radicals from foreign countries that want to continue what they have done in the past. Andrea sees the country’s enemies as Republicans. And she invents something to inspire fear, not against our real enemies, but instead against the group of people who see our nation’s politics differently than she does.

Obama claims that he wants to bring our country back together. He actually had me for a minute. All the ideas he has are great. I was actually thinking about voting Democratic for the first time since I started voting in 1976. And then I watched him on ABCs Sunday morning political show. On that show, I saw him first claim that “unison” platform, and then I saw him do everything he could to try and explain that he had not spoke favorably of Ronald Reagan, while in fact he had. He is already lying about what he is willing to do. So why on earth would anyone believe any of the other promises he is making?

*Republicans see our country’s enemies as our country’s enemies. Democrats seem to think that our country has no enemies that a good “talking to” can’t fix. They see Republicans as the enemy. And apparently the only Democratic candidate that says he wants to unify the country is already lying about it.(

On-topic? Or simply yet another in a long, long, long, long line of rabid rants about the unassailable perfection of the Reublican party and the undeniable perfidy of Democrats and liberals?

Oh, I know, Big Other Corporate Jack Dog…I kneed to grow up, lighten up, stay on topic, relax, run away, don’t be a playa-hata, chill in the ‘hood and back up off the shining perfection that is you. DO forgive me my presumption.

Luke 4:23

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Jack

The Republicans haven’t done a very good job now have they?

At what? As far as fighting for equal opportunities, they have done a great job. Democrats fought against integration, Republicans fought for it. Is everything fixed and perfect? Of course not, but integration is now the accepted norm while it wasn’t before.

I don’t like the money influence of the Republican party, but it is certainly no worse than the Democrats. The dims are now the recipients of the big money in Congress, big money in the presidential elections and many far left liberal organizations have the support of one of the biggest criminal minds in history: George Soros.

Speaking in general terms, it is easy to follow the lead of the corporate media and declare the Democrats the better party. But when a person takes a look at actions instead of words, the Republicans win hands down.

Obama wants to unite America until he is asked to say something good about Republicans which he refuses to do. That’s not uniting anything or anybody. So he is lying before he is even nominated. This is the one promise that he could possible achieve, but even that is a blatant lie. So how in the world will he be able to accomplish any of the larger and more complicated ideas he is proposing. They are all great ideas, but he can’t even stick to his guns on the simple ideas.

It is easy to say that a person supports health care for everyone as the Clintons promised, but where is it? They had a Democratically led House, Senate and White House, but still couldn’t do it.

They promised to end the war in Iraq and regulate the Oil companies in the elections of 06. I would have voted for all their ideas, but they haven’t accomplished anything. Hell, they haven’t even tried.

Democrats win votes with great ideas that they have no intention of accomplishing. Great ideas are a dime a dozen.

By Copyleft

January 29, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

So why would anyone vote for the party of George Wallace and Robert Byrd?

I dunno… maybe because they tend to be RIGHT a lot more often than the Repugnants are?

Because they can govern better?

Because they don’t screw the poor quite as hard, or as often, as the GOP does?

Because they at least are AWARE that somebody other than rich, white Christians live in this country?

There’s a lot of reasons, OtherJack—but none that will make the slightest impression on a mind that’s already made up on the subject.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

oOo

This is so sad. Why is it so important to continue this childish attempt at discrediting me? Is it just so completely impossible to discredit what I say? I make it easy for you, but you still just can’t perform.

USinUK is the one that claimed that I needed to stay on topic. She is the one that was off topic until she couldn’t defend her nonsense. So she claimed that I was off topic. I was gladly answering whatever she posted.

I have seen the topics here go waaaay off topic and have never had a problem with it. I still don’t but will point out when someone else is avoiding supporting their claims by saying that I am off topic.

Nice try, Joke, but you are no smarter than you were last week.

Sorry pal.

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Copyleft,

Because they don’t screw the poor quite as hard, or as often, as the GOP does?

For example under bush the richest 1% of the population on average received $30k on their taxes and the middle income families averaged $550.

Now that is a straight forward and honest party for the people!

By lozen

January 29, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

A new study by the Center for Public Integrity documents 935 public lies by leading members of the Bush clique in the two years after 9/11/2001 to mislead Americans into supporting their aggression against Iraq.

935 Lies by the Bush clique: http://www.publicin tegrity.org/ WarCard/

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Nice try, Joke, but you are no smarter than you were last week.

But you are more ignorant and crying when people do not play your game. So you got me beat at stupidity again. Darn.

USinUK is the one that claimed that I needed to stay on topic.

Not quite - you twist other people’s words again. USinUK’s point was clear and accurate: the desire to look to america’s ideals were emerging until the US acted like imperialist yet again. You are the only one that could not grasp what she was saying. You actually think the US looks good because of the Bushisms - sad really.

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

TOJ, I was gladly answering whatever she posted.

As long as you think your right. There have been dozens of times now that you dropped your position because you knew you could not defend it. “Running away” I think you call it.

Like your ignorant post:

You have problems with aligning civil laws with morality? Do you consider killing another person in cold blood a moral act? How about rape. Is the rapist committing a moral act? Civilized countries use morality to construct their criminal laws. Whether or not it is beyond your comprehension hardly matters. It is a fact of life.

And you not replying after I blew your overinflated ego out of the water:

Look up whether our legal system is based on morality or not. You will find that there is one set moral principles that all laws are to uphold: “These inherent rights… freedom/pursuit etc. You get all snotty as if what I am saying regarding morality is ignorant, when you post shows you yourself do not understand what our legal system is based on. This is what has, and will continue, to get you in the heated arguments that you have become accustomed to; then whine about. Example: The legal system punishes murder because it takes away another’s rights.

The only exceptions were blue laws which have just about been totally abolished. Guess why they have been abolished? Because they had no legal standing (violating others rights) and were purely based on religious ideas of morality. How do they try to justify making drugs illegal? It creates criminals which affect our rights. How about the abortion debate? The rights of the unborn child: try making a moral case in court regarding any issue and you will be laughed out of the courtroom by all repugs or democrats except for a couple loonies. I suspect you would be hanging with the loonies given your position though.

By lozen

January 29, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

but this constant attempt at insulting me is just making you look foolish and uninformed. The inability to debate with anyone without constant insults and put downs insinuating that you are the only intelligent person on the blog just makes you look foolish and nasty to the point that nobody cares whether you’re informed or not. And constantly defending Rep’s makes you look stupid. After the past seven years? Richard Nixon. Ronald Reagan and Ollie North. An unnecessary war costing thousands of innocent lives and billions of American dollars based on hundreds of lies. It doesn’t look like you’ve convinced anybody of anything does it?

By Copyleft

January 29, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

Tell you what, folks: let’s give OtherJack his point. Let’s all agree that OtherJack is, indeed, a poor little victim, wrongfully abused and shamefully treated by all the other Big Bad Posters here.

OtherJack is officially an endangered minority voice, who needs special care and handling to protect him from the evil ol’ liberals who would otherwise clobber him so unfairly. Perhaps a charity drive could be set up—or at least a hothouse to keep him safe and sheltered from the nasty old blog atmosphere?

Congratulations, OtherJack: you’re a victim and we all feel sorry for you. You’d better hope some high-minded liberal starts a program to protect you now, because you clearly can’t survive on your own.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Joke

Whatever, Pal. I can support what I say. You can continue to act like a child.

Don’t be surprised if I refuse to answer any more of this adolescent crap.

K?

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

lozen

I would ask you to actually read my posts, but you would rather blather on.

Knock yourself out.

By Snidely Buttright

January 29, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

“It doesn’t look like you’ve convinced anybody of anything does it?”

lozen, that’s not true. He convinced ME that there’s a massive difference between being an ideologue Republican and an honest conservative.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Anyone want to talk about issues or have you just given up trying to disprove what I actually say? These middle school attacks are just saying that you have nothing else.

I appreciate that.

Anyone?

Anyone?

By lozen

January 29, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

… OtherJack is, indeed, a poor little victim, wrongfully abused and shamefully treated by all the other Big Bad Posters here. OtherJack is officially an endangered minority voice, who needs special care and handling to protect him from the evil ol’ liberals who would otherwise clobber him so unfairly. And TOJ is, indeed, the only smart person who really sees the merits of the Repubs and how big and bad the Dems are. And he’s such a gentleman! And everyone on here really looks forward to hearing what he has to say each day. We have all been enlightened and smartened up by TOJ!

By Jack

January 29, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

TOJ. We are screwed either way.

We the money, for the money, by the money.

Lovely Monica was right.

I know you don’t care but you do get more flies with sugar than you do vinegar.

By lozen

January 29, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Congratulations, OtherJack: you’re a victim and we all feel sorry for you. You’d better hope some high-minded liberal starts a program to protect you now, because you clearly can’t survive on your own. Why don’t ya hold your breath and wait for your Repub buddies to do something for ya!

By HeeHaw

January 29, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Don’t be surprised if I refuse to answer any more of this adolescent crap

Promises, Promises, and here we heard on such great authority that that was a Democrat thing.

Are you a closet Democrat, TOJ?

actually, if anyone has come across as infantile… oh, never mind.

By lozen

January 29, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Hey, all you children - all your middle schoolers! TOJ is so mature and grown up and all you can do is act childish! Shame, shame, shame. Stop your childish attacks on that nice man now. He’s just trying to teach you what’s right, and in such a nice way. How can you be so childish?

By HeeHaw

January 29, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

We have all been enlightened and smartened up by TOJ!

so what’s next? You got some great beachfront property 40 miles west of Miami? or something.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

Iozen

I will tell you what I told the joke.

If you honestly think that a third party can look at the posts on this blog and conclude that I am the one that is being unfair, then please report me to the AJC. They can ban me.

Chances are, you will not, but I openly invite the scrutiny. Why wouldn’t you?

But this constant whining is getting old. Are you 9 years old? Is this the best you can do.

The way to “handle” me is to discredit what I write.

Obviously, you do not have the mental acumen to do that. So you continue to whine like a spoiled child. I never read more than the first line an any of your posts so that might save you some time, but I would offer that you like to rail in order to make yourself feel better.

So it serves two purposes. You feel better for not being able to debate the issues, and I understand that I am making points that cannot be refuted.

Again, contact the AJC or expect your childish attacks to be given all the attention they deserve.

By k

January 29, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Hey, Sugar! kiss!

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

They can ban me.

Do you have any idea how hard and most likely impossible that would be? Do you not know anything regarding web technology?

You are just making yourself look even more stupid.

By Jack

January 29, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Lozen is good at fishing. Lozen you know how you picture what folks look like on the blog? I think of Liza Minelli when you post. Am I close?

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Jack

If I had the choice of a party that does work for the middle class and is not accepting huge amounts of money, I would chose that on. But unfortunately, we don’t have that.

I know you don’t care but you do get more flies with sugar than you do vinegar.

If you look the entire length of this forum, you will see that I try to present points and issues. Those points and issues are seldom challenged. When they are, I defend the things I write.

What I do get is this constant barrage of middle school nonsense and it is always presented by the same few half-wits.

No I don’t care that I am not liked by the likes of Iozen and the Joke. I have never seen them present any argument of substance, so it encourages me to keep presenting facts and issues. Is it my fault that they can’t muster the intelligence to compose an argument to my points?

I took the time to give a detailed and respectful answer to your post. And all it took to get that from me was a single post from you that wasn’t attacking me personally.

That’s all it would take from anyone, other than the two mentioned above.

That’s life, Jack. Don’t attack me. Make a point and I will either agree or dispute your point. It’s not hard for you to understand because you are smart enough to carry on a civil conversation. Now you tell me why it is so hard for them?

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Joke

Contact them. If they are convinced that I am the unfair one here, they can send an e-mail and I will gladly go away.

Put up or stop whining.

By lozen

January 29, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

But this constant whining is getting old You are so right about that. I know how every one of your posts is going to end. Poor, poor me. Nobody will listen to me and I’m so smart! Everybody is so unfair to me. Everybody is so mean. Whyyyyyy meeeeee? Nobody will admit that I make my points and nobody else does. Whine, whine, whine is right!

By Jack

January 29, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

Back at ya Sweetness.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Jack

By lozen

But this constant whining is getting old You are so right about that. I know how every one of your posts is going to end. Poor, poor me. Nobody will listen to me and I’m so smart! Everybody is so unfair to me. Everybody is so mean. Whyyyyyy meeeeee? Nobody will admit that I make my points and nobody else does. Whine, whine, whine is right!

See what I mean? How would you respond to this adolescent crap?

By lozen

January 29, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Jack honey. No, not Liza Minelli. I have been told I look like Natalie Wood. Remember her? Netbanker did a run through once, did you miss it. He described a number of people and said what he imagined they looked like. He nailed me. Long silver hair, bright colors, floaty skirts, hippie jewelry, tall, slim but curvy in the right places ;-). Okay, okay I might remember some things he didn’t exactly say….

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

If they are convinced that I am the unfair one here, they can send an e-mail and I will gladly go away.

You sending them your email? You get even more stupid.

Put up or stop whining.

Where did I whine? You are the only one that demands rules that you yourself does not adhere to. I just poke fun at you and your hypocrisy.

Like this: What I do get is this constant barrage of middle school nonsense and it is always presented by the same few half-wits.

When you have written this: Oh boo hoo. A woman will be so persecuted for being a woman. Are we going to need to listen to this garbage her entire presidency if she manages to steal this election? Is this going to be her excuse?

And,

Something tells me that your dingaling has been shriveled since you became a “progressive”. It’s a common ailment.

And still waiting on your rebuttal regarding laws are based on morality…

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

You are compared to “vinegar” by the one blogger that is ok with you. Think about it…

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Anyone want to defer from these constant personal attacks and discuss the issues presented this week?

By HeeHaw

January 29, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Anyone want to defer from these constant personal attacks and discuss the issues presented this week?

actually this has more entertainment value, just like yesterday.

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

AJC

See what I am talking about? Why have the forum if you are going to allow this kind of nonsense?

By JokesOn

January 29, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

See what I am talking about? Why have the forum if you are going to allow this kind of nonsense?

And you are still whining…

By Jack

January 29, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

Thank you Lozen. Natalie was fine. Now where is that fan, it’s getting warm in here. LOL

By The Other Jack

January 29, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

AJC

Again. It never stops. This is what these people have reduced your forum to. Please review the posts from this week and if you have the posts from weeks past please look over those.

It is pointless to have the expense of having an interactive political forum and then allow anyone with opposing views to these few people to be treated like this.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this

Yep … it’s time someone called BDC/TOJ a waaaaaahhhhhhmbulance.

By Big Corporate Dog

January 30, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Yesterday you said this:

Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government. Then, we invaded and the mullahs were able to bang the drum of “western imperialism” and Ahmadenijad was elected.

I have repeatedly requested that you post the name of the Pro-Western candidate that was defeated by Ahmadenijad. Your response was to scold me for not sticking to the subject of the blog, which you believed was Democracy in Iran in spite of the large lertters at the top of the page that clearly says: Is Homeland Security Too Focused on “Guns, Guards and Gates”?

So would you like to continue our discussion of the 2005 Iranian Presidential race or would you like to discuuss this week’s Woman to Woman topic?

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

USinUK,

Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government.

When you use the words “bring about more western type of government,” you mean exactly that right? To move (slowly of course) in that direction? Or where you stating (somewhere hidden in your post) that they would elect a leader then and there?

And your post about keeping on subject was referring to the subject you all were discussing, no? (whether democracy would be possible in other countries, especially by force or coercion)

TOJ still seams confused and maybe you should spell it out for him.

By lozen

January 30, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

If you’re here today Jack, I’m imagining you look like Antonio Banderas. Whew!

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Jokes On and BCD/TOJ/Appele du jour -

Jokes on - Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. The election of Khatami in 1995 and the elections of the reformist parliaments were the first steps towards moving to a less fundamentalist/more western TYPE of government. The society as a whole were moving away from the Ayatollahs and more towards a liberal/western form of governing themselves.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING PRO-WESTERN (or, to be more specific, pro-US), NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES BCDog with a bone TRIES TO SAY IT IS More to the point, I never said it was.

And, BCD, I did answer your question: Rafsanjani was the more “centrist” of the two candidates. Granted, their center is askew to the US center, but he was expected to garner the reformist votes. And, once more for the folks in the cheap seats, I never said Pro-Western. YOU did.

As for sticking to the subject of the column, when has this forum EVER done that? Heck, even when it’s about abortion, the best we manage is about a day, then we digress.

If you don’t like it, go play in another sandbox.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

Jokes On:

TOJ still seams confused and maybe you should spell it out for him.

He’s not confused. He’s still reeling from the serious schooling I gave him last week.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Lozen … easy there, missy … it’s not even lunchtime in Atlanta!! :-)

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I’ll ask you again. Would you like to discuss issues, or would you like to continue with … this.

You claim to have given me a “schooling, but you seem to be running from the discussion of yesterday.

I’ll be more than happy to discuss any issue with you as long as it is an adult and civil discussion.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

He’s not confused. He’s still reeling from the serious schooling I gave him last week.

I know. I am just handing him back some of the insulting tone that he doles out before crying about its repercussions.

By lozen

January 30, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Maybe TOJ/BCD (one and the same) has had his widdle feelings hurt so badly he will go somewhere else. Yes!!! He belongs on the Luckovic blog where people are in a continual frenzy of hysterical insults. And, if people can get away with what they do over there, TOJ can stop thinking AJC is going to throw anybody off a blog!

By Gandalf, the Grey

January 30, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Every great invention of mankind has been the direct result of War, either as a weapon, or as a solution to a wartime problem. Why can’t you liberals embrace war? Accept it as the part of the human condition that makes us great! Kill the muslim fanatics and be done with it. Let’s take to gloves off and instead trying to earn respect and understanding from our enemies, instill fear. Remember we have a population problem, and global war is surely a cure for that.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

JokesOn

You are handing me back? You have yet to address me this morning. Was there an issue that you would like to discuss?

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

You have yet to address me this morning. Was there an issue that you would like to discuss?

Sure. Your rebuttal of the laws/morality subject that you never provided.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ -

BCD - I have answered your questions repeatedly and have clarified my point in more than one post in regards to pro-western vs. western-type of democracy. I have even addressed your broken record of a question regarding an alternative to Ahmadinijad.

In fact, everyone else in this forum seems to understand my point except you. That should tell you that, maybe just maybe, YOU’RE the one who needs to brush up on reading comprehension skills.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Gandalf, the Grey

Every great invention of mankind has been the direct result of War, either as a weapon, or as a solution to a wartime problem.

I disagree with every great invention of mankind as being the result of war. The Airplane. The automobile. The telephone. None of these were invented because of war. There have ben some inventions, such as the digital computer, but most great inventions were brought about by a need by mankind.

As far as solutions to wartime problems: yes, some huge issues have been decided by war. Ending of American Slavery. Ending of a fascist government that was determined to conquer the world. Allowing free trade through once controlled sea routes, such as Jefferson’s war against the pirates of the Barbary coast. There have been many.

Why can’t you liberals embrace war?

If you associate liberals with the American Democratic party, they already have embraced war, many times in our recent history. It was a Democrat, FDR that was president when we entered WWII. While we had sent military advisors to Viet Nam during the Eisenhower administration, it was JFK that sent in the first combat troops. After his death LBJ continued the war until Nixon was elected and was finally able to win that war. Two republican presidents and one Democratic President have both ordered deadly attacks on the country of Iraq.

Accept it as the part of the human condition that makes us great!

I’m not sure that anyone thinks that war makes us great.

Kill the muslim fanatics and be done with it.

If they are fanatics, set to kill Americans, then I would have to agree with you.

Let’s take to gloves off and instead trying to earn respect and understanding from our enemies, instill fear.

I personally would like to earn respect, but considering how many presidents from both parties have tried to negotiate a truce with many Islamic radicals, I fell that there is no peaceful solution.

In your opinion, what would we need to do in order to earn respect from our enemies? Are you a proponent of the eradication of the Jewish State of Israel? That would be the largest obstacle.

Remember we have a population problem, and global war is surely a cure for that.

The United States does not have an overt population problem. Some parts of the world do. However, no one with any authority is claiming that this or any other recent war was staged in order to decrease the surplus population.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

By USinUK

BCD - I have answered your questions repeatedly and have clarified my point in more than one post in regards to pro-western vs. western-type of democracy.

We weren’t discussing pro-western vs. western-type of democracy. We were discussing the Iranian presidential race of 2005.

I have even addressed your broken record of a question regarding an alternative to Ahmadinijad.

I just looked back over the posts from yesterday and can’t find any sort of response to my request for your clarification of your point about the elections. Would you please repost or just point to the time it was posted.

In fact, everyone else in this forum seems to understand my point except you. That should tell you that, maybe just maybe, YOU’RE the one who needs to brush up on reading comprehension skills.

This is not about everyone else on this forum. In fact I am shocked that an intelligent woman such as yourself would need the approval of others on this forum. The people that are insisting that you need their help would agree with the devil himself it is were in opposition to anything I have said.

If you can stand on your own feet without the help of others, let’s please continue.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

jokesON

Sure. Your rebuttal of the laws/morality subject that you never provided.

You reposted some obscure post that you had made weeks ago. You obviously saved that post. But in the time I have been here, you rarely even understand what the discussion was about or what anyone else actually said. I’m sure this was the case here.

If you also saved my post that you were responding to, maybe I would have some idea of what you are talking about. Can you repost it please?

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

We were discussing the Iranian presidential race of 2005.

Nope. Only you were. You took one sentence and warped it enough to have an argument.

By Jack

January 30, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

No one should “embrace” war. When war is necessary you should play to win. We didn’t play to win in Vietnam nor Iraq.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

If you can stand on your own feet without the help of others, let’s please continue.

More insults from TOJ. This is a blog that everyone can participate in, remember? Baiting like that is…uhm…childish.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

JokesOn

You asked that we discuss some topic from weeks ago which I am more than willing to do. I’ll ask again. Please present my original post so I will know what I am defending.

If you don’t have it, that is understandable. But to simply ignore my request proves that there was no post saying what you claim.

But it appears that you think that a woman cannot defend her position without your help. I would consider that rather sexist.

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By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

Jack

Amen to that. Playing war without a goal of victory just gets a lot of people killed.

By Mara

January 30, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Gandalf wrote “Every great invention of mankind has been the direct result of War, either as a weapon, or as a solution to a wartime problem. Why can’t you liberals embrace war? Accept it as the part of the human condition”

Sounds like the end of Babylon 5 when the Shadows and Vorlons were trying to persuade Sheridan and Delenn to choose a path for mankind -

Shadow icon (to Delenn): The Vorlons stand for order above anything else. No passion, no dreams. Just discipline. Obedience, their frozen in place; an evolutionary dead-end! Why side with the old? Embrace the new! Growth through pain and struggle; conflict and war! Your race came out of the last war stronger, better…how much better? How much stronger will they be after this war? You will rise from the ashes with a strength and power beyond your imagination. It is the cycle. It is the force of history itself. You cannot win against it. We have embraced it. We have helped it along by creating conflict. Weak races die, strong races are made even stronger. Evolution must be served. There is no other way.

Delenn: NO! That’s what you want us to believe…

Sheridan: That’s why you’re doing this. You don’t want to kill the messanger, you want to kill the message!

Delenn: After all, if you destroy the Vorlons, they’ll never know you won. They’ll never see that you were right and they were wrong. It’s about ideology!

Shadow icon: Of course! What isn’t? Order versus Chaos. Choose one.

Delenn: What if we reject the idea that we must decide which is right? What if we simply walk away?

Shadow icon: You cannot do that!

Delenn: The war will never end!

Shadow icon: That is correct.

Delenn: Then there is no hope?

Shadow icon: There is only chaos and evolution.

Vorlon icon: There is only order and obedience. You will do as you are told.

Shadow icon: You will fight. Because we tell you to fight.

Vorlon icon: You will die for us when we tell you to die for us.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

But it appears that you think that a woman cannot defend her position without your help. I would consider that rather sexist.

Another baiting post that makes a huge a*******umption which is totally unfounded.

By Jack

January 30, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

You will eat the special stew because we told you to. You will like it. No, you may not have seconds.

By Mara

January 30, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

Hi Jack! :^)

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

You asked that we discuss some topic from weeks ago which I am more than willing to do.

It was just last week.

I’ll ask again.

Where/when did you ask a first time?

Please present my original post so I will know what I am defending.

I did yesterday and one other time a few days ago.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ -

In fact, everyone else in this forum seems to understand my point except you. That should tell you that, maybe just maybe, YOU’RE the one who needs to brush up on reading comprehension skills.

This is not about everyone else on this forum. In fact I am shocked that an intelligent woman such as yourself would need the approval of others on this forum.

The fact that you don’t comprehend the difference between the words “understand” and “approve” should surprise me, but, it doesn’t.

If you’d like to reread my posts, I suggest you click on “edit” at the top of the window, then select “Find(on this page)” then enter my name.

Since you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I’ll recap: Trog asked if democracy in Iran/Iraq was possible, I said yes, but it can’t be installed from an outside force and from tthe top down. I said that Iran was moving towards a western-TYPE of democracy prior to our invasion - never did I use the term PRO-WESTERN.

You took that ball and ran with it, misrepresenting what I said as that they were pro-Western. I have never said anything of the kind. What I have said was that they moved away from the fundamentalist government of the Ayatollah - supporting that argument by citing the election of Khatami and the reformist victories in the parliamentary elections of 2000 and 2004. Lastly, I cited Rafsanjani as a more “centrist” candidate than Ahmadinijad. You keep insisting that I support “my” argument about a pro-Western candidate, but I never made that argument. YOU keep bandying that term around, not I.

But, when all is said and done, it’s not the first time you’ve misrepresented what I’ve said and I’m sure it won’t be the last since that’s the form of “debate” you like to use (and I’m being generous using that term ).

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps all those people that have paid me all theses years for my ability to read and write have simply been foolish and you above all the Fortune 500 companies that my firm works with has been wrong. But I don’t think so.

I understand that you were discussing democracy with another poster. I have never said that you weren’t. However we were discussing the presidential elections of 2005 after you had made the comment that our involvement in Iraq had somehow altered the elections.

I spent the time to find out how political candidates in Iran were chosen and showed you that everyone involved in that process were directly under the influence of the religious leader of the country.

I looked up the political history of the two final candidates and tried to find anything that said that either candidate had ever been in any way friendly to a relationship with the US or even friendly to a more moderate movement in Iraq. they had never in any way been friendly to such a movement.

Of course, when I pointed this out, you started claiming that you had never said any of it.

So basically, who cares. YOu don’t even understand what you write.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

Joke

Your posts are so full or adolescent garbage, why in the world would you think that I take the time to read your tirades. If you actually tried to make a point, it is not my fault that I thought it was just another string of personal attacks.

I went back and read your response. It’s garbage just like everything else you try to write. To explain why it is garbage to you would simply take more time than I want to spend on you.

Have a good day, Joke.

I have work to do.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

I looked up the political history of the two final candidates and tried to find anything that said that either candidate had ever been in any way friendly to a relationship with the US or even friendly to a more moderate movement in Iraq. they had never in any way been friendly to such a movement.

Of course, when I pointed this out, you started claiming that you had never said any of it.

Second verse, same as the first: Because I never did say anything about ANY candidate from Khatami onward being friendly to the US. YOU keep bringing that up, then asking me to defend an argument I never made.

By Gandalf, the Grey

January 30, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

The airplane was invented by Orville and Wilbur then immediately improved and place into service as a scout vehicle by every major military in the world.

The automobile, TANK, SCOUT CAR, HEAVY TRANSPORT, nuff said.

The Telephone? come on! Ever heard of a field phone?

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

I spent the time to find out how political candidates in Iran were chosen and showed you that everyone involved in that process were directly under the influence of the religious leader of the country.

If one stuck to the point of that one sentence in her post they would be looking up whether the people had begun a movement desiring a western type government, as she stated, but returned to embracing militants once imperialism read its head again. Instead you railed on and on and on about the leader who was elected vs ….ohhh nm again.

You want to rant on about integrety of a post? Defend your statement that NetB called you out on. TOJ: Andrea sees the country’s enemies as Republicans.

NetB:Really? I don’t see where she mentioned the administration, Republicans, or Bush at all in her post.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

I have work to do.

Well … from my own observations of BCD/TOJ’s acumen over the last 10 days, that work does not involve any of the following: 1) reading comprehension or breadth of vocabulary 2) a basic knowledge of how the economy works 3) a fundamental knowledge of history; or, as we have all observed 4) debating skills

I’m thinking mail room. In a major Fortune 500 company, of course. Anyone else want to hazard a guess??

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

TOJ,

As you state: Run-run-away.

I know. You only can have a self-manufactured debate with the sole purpose of feeding your low self esteem.

Got it.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

USinUK,

I have something on my mind, care to take a stab?

By Jack

January 30, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Gandalf, the Grey. What about toilet paper? Soldiers would be meaner if they didn’t have that. Food processor, bowling ball, vibrator, peanut sheller. Are those military goods?

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Gandalf, the Grey

You said this:

Every great invention of mankind has been the direct result of War, either as a weapon, or as a solution to a wartime problem.

That is what you said. right?

My statement was that the airplane, the car or the telephone were not invented to answer a war time problem. I never said that they would not eventually be used in war.

By Jack

January 30, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

Have never seen NetB lose a debate. He’s one of the sharpest tools in the shed.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Anyone else want to hazard a guess??

You stole my answer, so I will go with…

B) Bush’s personal speech writer.

TOJ is the man who came up with Bushisms like “the decider” and Bush would think his 1) reading comprehension or breadth of vocabulary 2) a basic knowledge of how the economy works 3) a fundamental knowledge of history; or, as we have all observed 4) debating skills are quite impressive.

By USinUK

January 30, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

JokesOn:

care to take a stab?

I’m a non-violent girl, me. No stabbing. ;-)

what’s on your mind?

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

UsinUk

Well … from my own observations of BCD/TOJ’s acumen over the last 10 days, that work does not involve any of the following: 1) reading comprehension or breadth of vocabulary 2) a basic knowledge of how the economy works 3) a fundamental knowledge of history; or, as we have all observed 4) debating skills

Is this the best you can do? How old are you?

Do you take it this hard every time you are proven wrong? In spite of your unwarranted arrogance, there is nothing about me that you really know. Now please continue with your ignorant fantasy about what you THINK that you know about me.

At first I was disappointed to see you stoop to the level of the mental giants on here like the Joke. But now I understand that you are no better or no less hysterical then they are.

I will admit that you are much smarter than they are, but maybe that is why it is such a disappointment that you can’t control your temper any better than they can.

By HeeHaw

January 30, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

I’m thinking mail room. In a major Fortune 500 company, of course. Anyone else want to hazard a guess??

I think they have restrooms that would need to be cleaned regularly.

By lozen

January 30, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Oh, I can think of all kinds of things invented for other purposes than war. I am not going to argue about it with Gandalf/Dog. I think men do love war though, or think they do until they experience it. Little boys have their heads filled with the idea of going to battle and becoming heroes. Their religion teaches them it’s good to be a martyr and give your life for the “good” of something. It’s only when men have actually taken part in war that they see it’s true face, the blood and guts, their dying friends, the uselessness of it. War is against everything good in the human spirit. It’s a leftover of our old reptilian brain. It never solves anything; it just perpetuates itself. It is truly the darkest side of human beings. Unfortunately, the people who get us into wars never really experience it. The people who lead wars, the generals, don’t get into the trenches do they? It’s the grunts, the young kids who don’t know any better - at least according to all the men I’ve known who were in wars. It’s only afterwards, if they’re the lucky ones who make it, that they see they were fighting, killing and dying for old men.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Joke

You wrote this:

You will find that there is one set moral principles that all laws are to uphold:

Are you at least smart enough to understand that you are agreeing with my point? Then you contradict yourself over and over as you desperately try to defend a point that you can’t even define.

It’s not that I am afraid to debate you. I just don’t know which contradiction to debate.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Jack

Gandalf, the Grey. What about toilet paper? Soldiers would be meaner if they didn’t have that. Food processor, bowling ball, vibrator, peanut sheller. Are those military goods?

By his logic, all those things have been used in war so they must have been invented for war. There used to be bowling alleys on Aircraft carriers.

By Mara

January 30, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Gandalf - how about the wheel, sliced bread, the Hula Hoop, and “Kohler overflow sok tub”? The Rubiks Cube, string theory, and chocolate milk? The mini-skirt, Jimmy Choo’s and lalique crystal?

None of these fantastic inventions is the RESULT of war…

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Iozen

It never solves anything; it just perpetuates itself.

hmmm. That is going to be a huge disappointment to the hundreds of thousands of descendants of Slaves that were freed directly as a result of the American Civil War.

Jefferson’s war against the Barbary Pirates opened up trade routes that had been controlled by cut throats and thieves.

And of course WWII solved many, many problems for European Jews that were still living at the end of the war, not to mention the emancipation of France, Poland and most of China.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Are you at least smart enough to understand that you are agreeing with my point? That murder is illegal because murdering is immoral? That is not the case, so you are wrong again.

Then you contradict yourself over and over as you desperately try to defend a point that you can’t even define.

Nope. I presented a point that you cannot understand and must, once again, project as other peoples short-comings.

It’s not that I am afraid to debate you. I just don’t know which contradiction to debate. Then it is settled, you do not even understand the topic.

You cannot even understand the topic from what you wrote and prove that without a binary topic, you are lost.

That fits with all your “debates.” You find one minute aspect of a topic that you can wrap your head around, and make it a black/white issue. If that aspect does not exist, you create one and demand others adhere to it.

If you had any grey matter you would understand that the bill of rights are in fact a moral code, but they are not laws;) Laws protect those specific rights and are not, of themselves, moral code. If a law is only moral code, blue laws like being illegal to own a vibrator in Alabama, they get struck down as being unconstitutional.

If you had brains you would mention animal cruelty laws as a good rebuttal, but it is just about the only example you will be able to find. The argument could also be made that although unwritten, there is an animal bill of rights…etc

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

That is going to be a huge disappointment to the hundreds of thousands of descendants of Slaves that were freed directly as a result of the American Civil War.

What a gross misunderstanding and over-simplification of the ACW! Fortune 500?!?! Yeah right.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

USinUK,

I have an ongoing debate with a friend regarding whether talent exists or not. And if so, how to explain its origins.

I am of the position (mainly, because I am ok with being incorrect - we are just trying to find the truth of talent) that if talent exists, it must be either governed by some collective consciousness or god-like being/s. Otherwise one could have a talent in something that does not exist yet, unless that explains insanity: the ability and desire to express ones talent but cannot therefore one goes mad.

Any input would be welcome.

By Archie

January 30, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Lozen your 3:05 pm made a lot of good points but I do think war is necessary when you’re attacked by a country. Notice I said when you’re attacked by a country, not a gang. Other than that I agree with what Lozen wrote. We were not attacked by the country that we are at war with and we were lied to 935 times leading up to the Iraq war.

Also, Netbanker has lost a debate before but he’s smart enough to get out of it before he looks bad. Netbanker is smart and I have asked him some questions because I think he is smart. This particular discussion about war and it’s merits could be good but certain folk will bring silliness to the blog.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Hey Archie,

How goes it?

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

JokesOn

This is very easy. This is what I wrote:

You have problems with aligning civil laws with morality? Do you consider killing another person in cold blood a moral act? How about rape. Is the rapist committing a moral act? Civilized countries use morality to construct their criminal laws. Whether or not it is beyond your comprehension hardly matters. It is a fact of life.

Please point out where I ever said that moral codes were laws. I said they were aligned with laws. I said that civilized countries used morality to construct laws. But where on earth did I ever say that moral codes were laws?

Seems that all your hysteria could have been avoided if you had just simply read what I wrote.

By The Other Jack

January 30, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

JokesOn

I was not attempting to explain the entire Civil War. I was making a point that war does in fact solve problems.

Please stop rifling through my posts to other people in your continued desperate attempt to prove me wrong. It makes you look rather pathetic.

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By lozen

January 30, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Nixon took over and we won the Vietnam war? Ha, ha. We pulled out. We did not win the Vietnam conflict. It wasn’t a war. It was never declared a war.

Jeez, this has become so frigging tiresome! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! I’m right. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. See, this is why I’m right and you’re wrong. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. No. This is what you said and you’re wrong. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. It’s really hard not to respond to such arrogance and stupidity but it’s pointless. Can we just ignore the troll and move on please?

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

Seems that all your hysteria could have been avoided if you had just simply read what I wrote.

Are you insane? I wrote:

Why anyone would want to elect people with the goal of aligning the government/constitution/etc with their personal beliefs of morality, attainable or not, is beyond me. Note the word personal beliefs of morality. Seems in your hysteria you defended electing people who have the goal of aligning the government/constitution/etc with their personal beliefs of morality.

And you reacted by posting: You have problems with aligning civil laws with morality? Do you consider killing another person in cold blood a moral act? How about rape. Is the rapist committing a moral act? Civilized countries use morality to construct their criminal laws. Whether or not it is beyond your comprehension hardly matters. It is a fact of life.

Seeing as you state morality as a universal, and not the bill of rights, it is acceptable to understand your notion of morality as a generic one. Any law aligned with your notion, and not coincident with the bill of rights, would be unconstitutional.

And although I proven my point thoroughly and you were the one being crass and self centered again, I am sure you will rant on about some unfairness.

If at some point you do by chance get it, have have something to offer without your usual anger I will respond.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

I was not attempting to explain the entire Civil War. I was making a point that war does in fact solve problems. TOJ begins back peddling now. That may have been a by-product of war, but so is a number of other things that have no point regarding lozen’s post. You tried stating that the war solved an issue that was actually solve through legislation over many years, post civil war, and is still continuing.

Please stop rifling through my posts to other people in your continued desperate attempt to prove me wrong. It makes you look rather pathetic. Rather it makes you look like the dolt you come off as.

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Can we just ignore the troll and move on please?

Your right lozen, but it so much fun to play poke the troll!

By JokesOn

January 30, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

lozen,

If i am correct in thinking you are an atheist (if not forgive me), your input regarding talent would be insightful.

By lozen

January 30, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

JokesOn, what talent is and where it comes from is one of those things I just have to say, “I don’t know” about. Maybe it’s genetic. And it has to be recognized and supported or it doesn’t have a chance to develop. I think there are many people with talents who don’t have the environment, the encouragement, or the support and training as a child to develop it; maybe some of them do go crazy. Are we talking about all talents or some specific talent?

By lozen

January 30, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

Archie, I’m not opposed to self defense. If someone invaded my country and threatened me and the people I love I would fight of course. But I’ve learned not to believe the lies of politicians about when and why we should go to war.

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January 31, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this

Joke

Bla bla bla bla bla.

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By USinUK

January 31, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ

Oh, dear. This would be funny if it wasn’t so darned sad … Day 4 of “Forum Held Hostage by Your Inability to Read.” And, the truly pathetic thing is that you don’t realize how much you embarass yourself with the Do you take it this hard every time you are proven wrong?

Proven wrong? You keep asking me to justify something I never said. Heck, by your own admission, all I said was that our “involvement” in Iraq (actually, what I said was “invasion”, but who’s nitpicking) influenced the elections:

I understand that you were discussing democracy with another poster. I have never said that you weren’t. However we were discussing the presidential elections of 2005 after you had made the comment that our involvement in Iraq had somehow altered the elections.

You then went off on a tangent saying I said that they were pro-US, which I never did. What I did say, was “Until we invaded Iraq, there was a burgeoning Iranian middle class and active student movement to bring about more “western” type of government.”

Now, given your poor reading skills, I do understand how you can get PRO and MORE confused (they both have an R and an O in them, after all).

So, “proven wrong”?? Ah. No. But, thanks for playing.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

Iozen

Jeez, this has become so frigging tiresome! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! I’m right. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. See, this is why I’m right and you’re wrong. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. No. This is what you said and you’re wrong. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. It’s really hard not to respond to such arrogance and stupidity but it’s pointless. Can we just ignore the troll and move on please?

Finally we agree on something. I’m real tired of it.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Bal, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Having such a bad day already?

Nag. Nag. Nag.

I like the guy telling the jokes. He’s smarter than all of you.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

BaseBorn

First, I actually know what your name means. Interesting choice. Don’t worry, your secret is safe with me.

OK, if this forum closes at 5 PM and opens at 8 AM, how do spammers post at 9:55 PM and 12:03 AM?

THAT is a really good question. How do people post here after the forum is closed?

By BaseBorn

January 31, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

OK…. so if the Jacksonville Jaguars are known as the ‘Jags’ and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are known as the ‘Bucs,’ what does that make the Tennessee Titans?

The Other Jack

Who’s your daddy?

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

Jokes On -

Well, I don’t know if I round out your collection, but I’m an agnostic (technically, an agnostic theist - I believe in god/God/goddess/trees, even though I don’t think anyone can/will ever truly know … but, then, that’s why it’s called faith, isn’t it? … but I digress).

GREAT question about talent. Where is talent from? Is it divine inspiration? Does it come from past lives (how else could we have child prodigies?) Is it innate?

I absolutely believe talent exists. I can play piano fairly passably, but a friend of mine is a composer - no matter how much I practice, I’ll never be able to “create” as well as he can. Plus, music is something he HAS to do - not to write or play would be like not breathing for him. It’s just hard-wired into who he is.

And, I think you can extrapolate that out to the geniuses of our age and ages past - everyone from the recently departed Bobby Fisher to Da Vinci and Gallileo. What they did, what they invented was part and parcel of who they were. If Bobby Fisher DIDN’T play chess, never found a chessboard, would he just be another nutter on the streets? But, because he did, he had an outlet for his skills.

Now, is that talent a gift from god/God/Goddess/Trees (just trying to be inclusive, here)?? Or is it just the DNA-induced way our brains are wired? Or are we all wired that way, but need to be nurtured?

I guess I believe we all have talents - we need to live a life that helps us find and develop those talents - but, sadly, not all of us are Bobby Fishers/Twyla Tharps/George Gershwins and never will be no matter how hard we work at it. As far as god-given - I think it’s as god-given as our lives and ourselves are god-given - it’s who/what we are.

Can people have talents for things not yet invented? Well, incredibly talented people have gone on to invent things (see DaVinci above), so I would say Yes.

I don’t know if any of that rambling helps, but them’s my £0.02 (which is actually worth $0.04 with the current exchange rate).

By BaseBorn

January 31, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Joke

Your right lozen, but it so much fun to play poke the troll

http://www.english-zone.com/verbs/your1.html

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

USinUK

You play piano. That’s great. Playing an instrument tends to calm the nerves.

Do you play using chord symbol notation where you can ad lib a little with your left hand or are you a strictly note for note person?

Speaking of ad lib, can you? Say I give you this progression:

4/4 time each chord gets 2 beats. Cm7 F Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Am7 D GM7

Using a G minor progression, could you ad lib with your right hand while playing the chords with your left?

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

BCD/TOJ -

You are so kind to ask. Musically, I’m a note-person … never been able to improvise.

I guess working in the mail room must give you loads of time to play around with harmonic progressions. Good for you! Hopefully, you’ll use the time to work on those reading skills, too.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

USinUK

BTW. That progression is from an old Blues tune by Greg Alman. Really nice song. The bridge goes from a C and walk up to an Eb (all, including the walk: major triads), then builds through a Bb and a Abmaj7(Bb).

But the really cool part is after the bridge, the main progression is used to back up leads by a sax and Rhodes piano, but the time signature goes to an 11/8 beat. That’s basically that simple little jazz 6/8, but every other bar, the time signature goes to 5/8.

It is a real challenge to stay with the progression when you are taking a lead with that weird time sigtnature. But you probably already knew that.

Yep, playing piano is a great thing. I wish more kids knew real music instead of “Guitar Hero”.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

USinUK

You are so kind to ask. Musically, I’m a note-person … never been able to improvise.

It’s really not that hard. You just need to learn which notes to play in what key. Like in a blues Gm, which would be the key for the progression I gave you, you just play G, Bb, C, D, F, and use Db as a passing tone. But don’t forget your 9th, which of course would be an A. Once you train your fingers to automatically play only those notes in that key, you will be amazed at how simple it is.

Count Basie only played a couple of notes per bar and he sounded great. it’s just a matter of having your own style.

I guess working in the mail room must give you loads of time to play around with harmonic progressions. Good for you! Hopefully, you’ll use the time to work on those reading skills, too.

Yep, learned it all in the mail room. I also learned structural engineering and 3-D modeling. I use Lightwave 3D. It is amazing what a person can pick up down there. http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/

By BaseBorn

January 31, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

If 4 out of 5 people SUFFER from diarrhea…does that mean that one enjoys it?

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

*Yep, playing piano is a great thing. I wish more kids knew real music instead of “Guitar Hero”. *

I agree with you there. I’ll listen to pretty much anything except country (just can’t get into it). When it comes to piano, I’m a Gershwin Girl (both brothers, for that matter) … Although, not so much Concerto in F (yuk). Rhapsody in Blue always reminds me of the 1-year anniversary of 9/11 — our local NPR station did an all-request day for people to suggest pieces of music to mark the occasion and someone suggested that one because it’s so evocative of New York. I completely fell apart.

And that’s what I love about music (even though I don’t have anywhere NEAR the talent these giants had) - it can take you places, it can heal you, it can help you mourn as well as help you celebrate.

GAH. There’s a ramble!

By Archie

January 31, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

Lozen I know you are not opposed to self-defense. Go back and read my entire post. I thought you made good points and I know politicians do lie.

On another topic it seems as some people do not do any research on candidates on their own whereas other people seem to just accept what they are told no matter how far out it may be. For example some people simply repeat things that they have heard about Hillary without any emperical proof or even a good theory. Another example is people believing Saddam had WMD’s but he shipped them to Syria. There has never been any verifiable evidence to support that belief. Fact two, Iraq did not have anything directly or really indirectly with 9/11 and government officials have finally said so yet because folk do no research of their own, politicians can lie about anyone they oppose.

Barack Obama is not a Muslim. I know this because he said so and there is no proof that he is. There is no document or video that proves such a claim. Democrats lie and republicans lie as well and it wouldn’t take me long to prove that statement.

By lozen

January 31, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

USinUK, I used to believe in reincarnation - read a few books when I was in high school. So, when someone said that explains the genius of Beethoven, it worked at the time. Later I learned that both his parents were musicians and he grew up in that environment. My older son had a a great interest in how things worked. He started taking tricycles, bicycles, and all kinds of things apart and putting them back together when he was three. Too bad he wasn’t interested in academics and didn’t make the grades or have the interest in college. But he has used his skills in his work. I loved music. I wanted to learn to play the piano but my family didn’t have the money for a piano and music lessons. Later in college when I took aptitude tests my highest score was always in musical performance; the tests showed interest and similarity to people in different professions, not talent of course. I watch people playing in symphony orchestras and know I would have loved that. My brother taught himself to play guitar and his son is a genius with a guitar - also self taught.
I do believe we all have talents and if we’re lucky and have parents who see that talent and help us develop it we’re very lucky.

By lozen

January 31, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

Archie, can you imagine how Obama is going to be ripped about his name if he is our candidate? There are right wing nuts already emphasizing the “Hussein” in his name. If they could turn Max Cleland into a nut wait until they get a chance with Obama!

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Gotta open up to country. It isn’t what it used to be. (Well some of it is) I admit that other than a couple of CDs that I needed to buy to learn songs, I don’t buy country, but the music is a lot like old Southern Rock. The stigma is still there, but now days styles interlace so much. Like Lyle Lovett’s Large Band CD is mostly just great jazz and he is supposed to be country. (I have several of his CDs)

Gershwin is something else. It is extremely hard to play reading chords. At that point, I become a note by note person and site-reading has never been a strong suit.

I never liked Rhapsody in Blue after that d*mned Deadato butchered it in the 70s, that is until I heard an arrangement by a Latin group called 3 Da Bossa. (I think I heard it in the mail room) It starts with the classic piano part, but goes into a really cool jazz feel. It’s that moon lit Caribbean night feel. It is on my ipod. I got it from the Apple Store. Check it out, if you get a chance.

Music heals. And there is nothing like a home full of real music. My kids were never asked if they were going to play an instrument, they were asked which instrument they wanted to play.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

lozen

Playing music is just a matter of hand-eye coordination. Playing it well involves some sort of magical thing that makes the musicians on stage communicate non verbally and somehow makes them “feel” the changes. Is that talent?

I don’t think it is any more special than that special magical thing in Jerry Rice’s brain that enables him to calculate the trajectory of the football before he catches it.

Peytan Manning and Elli both obviously inherited skills from their Dad, Archie. But I’m sure having their dad throwing football with them every day didn’t hurt.

but on the other hand, my sister was a virtuoso but neither of her kids can play a note.

But I still think it is physical attributes that are handed down. Given that many of those attributes are hidden deep in the brain, it will be a long time before anyone really understands them. So for now, we call it talent.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

Lozen -

I get stuck on reincarnation. From a purely natural point of view, it makes sense (look around, everything that dies falls away, then becomes something else - trees die, rot and serve as compost for new things). My problem is that, if we’re supposed to be paying for sins of the past, it makes no sense if we don’t remember them and learn from them.

Did you read the story about the 10-year old vet? (it’s on yahoo news) Now, THERE’s a child prodigy for you that is down to raw ability. That kind of talent/brilliance absolutely leaves me in awe. Although, I feel sorry for the kid who has an adult intelligence, but can rarely fit in with his/her peers.

I’m with you on the “if your lucky, your parents will foster your talent” - but, hey, if we’re lucky, we’ll all live very long lives and continually be finding new talents we never knew we had!! Let’s not just limit it to our childhood!

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

there are country songs here and there that I like (Dwight Yokum’s cover of “Little Sister”, for instance). But, it all sounds the same to me after a while. Much like reggae does - it’s great, gets me in a good mood. Then I feel like I’ve been listening to the same song for about 45 minutes.

Good for you with your kids learning music! I wish more people did that and I wish more schools had it as a core curriculum for the young-uns. Studies show learning music helps performance in maths and other curriculae.

I’ve been getting into the Latin thing a lot, lately (thanks to the Go Tan Project, I now tango while I vacuum). I’ll check out 3 Da Bossa - you check out Pink Martini.

By Jack

January 31, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

When Bush spent all of that precious time getting permission from the UN to invade, it gave Saddamn plenty of time to move his WMDs. Pictures from space show convoy after convoy of big riggs going to Syria. Well..they could have been moving furniture.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Pink Martini.

Just went to the Apple Store

Wow. It’s the 1930s all over again. Actually they really mix it up. I’ll have to download Sympathique and Eugine.

I have lots of songs in Spanish and Portuguese (I love Brazilian Jazz). This will be my first French song.

I try to sing along with the Spanish songs because I speak a little Spanish, but I know I am butchering the songs. Now I can butcher songs in three languages!!

My daughter: I was teaching piano long before she could reach the peddles. I used an old drum stool so I could raise her up to the keys. One of the first songs I taught her was Evil Woman by Electric Light Orchestra. We thought it was a huge kick for her to play it when her mom walked in the room. her Mom? Not so much. She just got a full scholarship to a conservatory but I would rather she go to a bigger and better school.

My son? He insisted on the guitar which I have no idea how to play. We got him a vintage Fender Mustang which he still has but never really accomplished anything with it. He went into computers and has done really well. But he always envy’s his sister’s abilities.

I always wonder if I had been there to help him like I helped his sister, would he have done more with it?

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Reggie? I know what you mean. There is a really popular Reggie band that plays for a lot of the festivals around east Atlanta. It’s a big party, but the music quickly become background music.

I see a lot of people that can play really well around here, but few really entertain. They don’t seem to care any more about their audience than their audience cares about them.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

TOJ -

Isn’t it SO the 30s all over again … especially “Et puis je fume” (I’ve been known to sing that to the hubby when riding on the Tube - if only because it’s the only lyrics I could remember). Fantastic group - am glad you like it! Will check out Bossa when I get home.

BIG, raucaus applause for your daughter! Let her try the small school - if she doesn’t like it, she can always transfer. You never know, she might thrive. And, let’s be honest - full ride is a big deal! As for your son, hey - as long as he learned a bit and has an appreciation for it, that’s what matters. Like we said earlier, not everyone can be Stevie Ray Vaughn.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

TOJ - I see a lot of people that can play really well around here, but few really entertain.

Frankly, I don’t really bother with shows much anymore for just that reason - it’s too danged expensive and the groups don’t really seem to care if you’re there to see them or not. I hate to use this cliche, but in MY day, you could go to a show at the OMNI for less than $15!! And it would be a great show! Your ears would ring for days! The groups would really work the audience. Now, they just rely too much on all the foofy stuff (light shows, etc).

And, geez, you go to an arena show and you may as well be watching it on TV since the only way you can see the group is on the big screen, anyway.

By Bluegrass Blogger

January 31, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

First, let me say that while, I don’t post often, I do read the posts every day and enjoy the comments! Due to my job restrictions and the limited posting hours of the AJC, I will probably only be able to post once a day, but I do want to be involved in the discussion. I will try my best to answer, but please understand my limitations if I am not able to respond.

Just a couple of things I’d like to comment on: Trog:

Early on, you made the comment that “Fundamentalist Xtians in the U.S. aren’t crazy about pure democracy, but they are way more into it than fundamentalist Muslims in majority Muslim countries”.

Two points: 1) I’m not sure if you would, but I am sure that there are some that would call me a” fundie” Christian. Please explain why you think that “fundie” Christians “aren’t crazy about pure democracy” 2) Why use the term “X”tians? Not that it is a big deal, just curious if that is a reference to the historical reason behind the “X” in Xmas, if you just can’t bring yourself to type the name “Christ”, if it was intended to be an insult, or some other reason.

JokesOn:

As for the laws vs. morality debate, please correct me if I am wrong, but this started with TOJ linking laws and morality, and Jokeson stating that laws are not based on morality, they are based on rights (It is illegal if it infringes on the rights of others). (Forgive me if I am wrong, but for some reason, I cannot access the archives)

My point would be this:

Rights are not only based on morality (and thus laws as well), but are also based on religion:

In the Declaration of Independence, the forefathers claimed that the rights of the colonists were being trampled by England. But their very justification was based on the fact that these “rights” that were being trod upon were not those granted by man, but those that were “Endowed by their Creator”, and thus the colonies had the justification to protect those rights. If they were granted by man, they would only be as good as the person is, and would last only as long as that person is in power. But because these are granted by God, no man has the standing to infringe upon them. So the fact that it is a right is derived from it being bestowed by our Creator, otherwise, it is left to the temporary whims of man.

But even aside from religion, rights must be based on a moral code. Without this basis, who is to determine what person has which rights (fairness and equality, leveling the playing field, they are all MORAL concepts). After all, why shouldn’t the biggest, strongest, and smartest have it all? It is a moral code that prevents this.

However, later you said “Note the word personal beliefs of morality. Seems in your hysteria you defended electing people who have the goal of aligning the government/constitution/etc with their personal beliefs of morality”

Maybe your original point was PERSONAL beliefs of morality, and if that is the case, I didn’t pick up on that from the exchange last week, so my previous statement may have been unnecessary. However, even on that subject, don’t our elected officials already try to line up the laws with their personal morality? I mean, I don’t see anyone wanting to pass a law that all children should say “Yes Ma’am” or “no Sir”, but we are always trying to align the laws with what we feel is the baseline behavior to be tolerated by society (isn’t that what the law is, the minimum moral requirement for society to function?) Just look at the abortion debate, or even Hate crimes (how is that not aligned to morality, punishing not only the action, but the alleged discrimination associated with the action?) So, I see nothing different from the status quo if we were to elect an official that wants to align the law to their personal morality, other that in the case of Huckabee, he is open about it.

So, along those lines, if it is only personal morality that you have an issue with, then you must agree that there is an absolute morality. However, I would argue that even that is not agreed upon to be absolute (you don’t think that Christians, Muslims, Agnostics, and Atheists all would have the same concept of absolute morality, do you?) So then, if law is based on any morality, it eventually boils down to personal morality when it is people that write the laws.

Sorry for opening the can of moral relativism if it was not needed, I am just trying to answer as much as I can, given that tomorrow will be my last post of the week.

Anyway, as far as the debate on the topic goes, I agree that there has to be the medium in which violence is the last answer, but at times, has the be the answer, but only in defense.

Hope everyone has a great day.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Isn’t it SO the 30s all over again … especially “Et puis je fume” (I’ve been known to sing that to the hubby when riding on the Tube

OK. I’m not sure what that means in England, but back here in Atlanta, it means something else entirely.

I like the singer. She has a hell of a range and looks the part.

BIG, raucaus applause for your daughter! Let her try the small school - if she doesn’t like it, she can always transfer. You never know, she might thrive.

That’s what I am afraid of. She is just weird enough to fit in. We visited the school and it is revenge of the nerds. Her primary instrument is Clarinet which is not a good instrument to make a living with unless she is in an Orchestra and they are extremely hard to get in. Of course I would rather her be there than playing for some Big SEC school marching band. I want her to look at Juilliard. That was my dream to go there, but my little girl living in New York. I don’t know about that.

And, let’s be honest - full ride is a big deal!

Right now. Oh yea. That would save us thousands.

As for your son, hey - as long as he learned a bit and has an appreciation for it, that’s what matters. Like we said earlier, not everyone can be Stevie Ray Vaughn.

He can actually ad lib pretty well. He learned enough to play with my daughter and myself when we jammed around the house. Now he lives far, far away where it is really cold right now.

Good kid. Will probably make more money than his old man by the time he is 30. And he is doing what he loves. I just hate that the greatest computer tech in the world just moved away and I have no idea how to fix these things.

By Archie

January 31, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Pictures from space show convoy after convoy of big riggs going to Syria.

That’s not proof of anything Jack. Heck what leader is going to ship off his best weapons when he knows attack is imminent. Saddam was in a basement with a pistol. Come on if you know someone is going to attack you with a gun or bombs you will use any means of defense you have!, but if you don’t have the weapons to fight with you run. Remember there were inspectors already in Iraq and they found nothing. Also we were led to believe Iraq could fire missiles from their country that could reach our country. Well that’s impossible according to our own people here. Tall tales are allowed to go unchallenged because politicians know people aren’t going to do any research or logical thinking and it’s so easy to appeal to prejudice. 935 lies were told between 2001 and 2003 according to a study that has been printed in several newspapers over the last two weeks. My point that people don’t do any real research or keep up with what’s going has just been proven.

By Jack

January 31, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

“Heck what leader is going to ship off his best weapons when he knows attack is imminent.”

Don’t think so Archie. All of his weapons would be no match for us and he knew it. As far as him having WMDs. ASK THE KURDS! Yeah, the men, women and children laying dead in the street were fake just like the WMDs.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

TOJ:

Mind out of gutter, big guy!! The Tube is the London Underground. A wacky, wonderful way to get around (especially if you like to people-watch) - say what you want about the Victorians, but, MAN, they valued good engineering.

SEC marching band!?!? Blasphemy. ACC, if you please. As for the clarinet, she can always play in klezmer bands at Jewish weddings ;-) Seriously, just remember the Parental Mantra, “as long as she’s happy.” That’s the best anyone can hope for - everything else is gravy.

You need to get your son a Skype phone so he can help you with your computer for free. My hub is the Designated Geek in our house. While it’s great that I know he knows how to fix any problem and secure any wireless hub. The downside is that he’s GADGET MAN - you don’t even want to know about our electric bill because of all the stuff we have running in our house. Carbon footprint = THISBIG!!!

By Archie

January 31, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Jack there were no weapons found!!! If he was no match for us why the lies and why the urgency to go to war? It comes back to what Lozen said about politicians lying. As for the people he killed remember he did that damage prior to the first Gulf war so the point is his weapons were destroyed and he knew that. Anyway you look it what we were told here was lie after lie.

“It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to Al Qaeda. This was the conclusion of numerous bipartisan government investigations, including those by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004 and 2006), the 9/11 Commission, and the multinational Iraq Survey Group, whose “Duelfer Report” established that Saddam Hussein had terminated Iraq’s nuclear program in 1991 and made little effort to restart it.”

On August 26, 2002, in an address to the national convention of the Veteran of Foreign Wars, Cheney flatly declared: “Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us.” In fact, former CIA Director George Tenet later recalled, Cheney’s assertions went well beyond his agency’s assessments at the time. Another CIA official, referring to the same speech, told journalist Ron Suskind, “Our reaction was, ‘Where is he getting this stuff from?’ ”

By HeeHaw

January 31, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

London Underground

you might want to point out that that is not a revolutionary leftist subversive outfit out to destroy the British Empire.

But rather a metropolitan subway mass transit system.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Frankly, I don’t really bother with shows much anymore for just that reason - it’s too danged expensive and the groups don’t really seem to care if you’re there to see them or not.

I completely agree but I was just talking about local bars. Back home you can walk into any little dive and hear unreal bands. They can play anything and they really entertain.

The last Arena show I went to was the Grateful Dead. Other than the completely insane crowd, there was simply nothing to watch. The band was pathetic. They reminded me of a garage band. They never said a word to their audience, they played out of tune, they missed notes, the mix was marginal at best. They watched their fingers instead of looking up while they played.

I payed like $80 each for those tickets. Won’t happen again.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

HeeHaw:

But rather a metropolitan subway mass transit system.

shhhh … I kind of like the idea that someone would think I’m with a revolutionary group! I live in the suburbs, fercryingoutloud!!

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

By USinUK

Mind out of gutter, big guy!! The Tube is the London Underground. A wacky, wonderful way to get around (especially if you like to people-watch) - say what you want about the Victorians, but, MAN, they valued good engineering.

I love to people watch. That was one of the things about playing in bands growing up that I loved. They never know that you are looking back at the audience. You are usually setting up higher and can see the whole bar. Every night was several dramas going on at the same time.

SEC marching band!?!? Blasphemy. ACC, if you please.

Actually I played in a huge SEC marching band. No not Georgia.

As for the clarinet, she can always play in klezmer bands at Jewish weddings ;-) Seriously, just remember the Parental Mantra, “as long as she’s happy.” That’s the best anyone can hope for - everything else is gravy.

True, there. I played trumpet in a polka band for a short while. Also played trumpet in a Latin band in college. THAT was fun. We had 16 people on stage and most of them were playing percussion. That band rocked but we had to split the money 16 ways. That was the best sounding band I have ever been in, but I was going broke.

You need to get your son a Skype phone so he can help you with your computer for free.

Oh he’s a cell phone away, but there is only so much he can instruct me to do. He sent an audio driver for my main computer and I screwed it up. Now I get this weird echo when I try to use the sound.

My hub is the Designated Geek in our house. While it’s great that I know he knows how to fix any problem and secure any wireless hub. The downside is that he’s GADGET MAN - you don’t even want to know about our electric bill because of all the stuff we have running in our house. Carbon footprint = THISBIG!!!

I like the gadgets, mostly video cameras and editing equipment. I have two PCS and two MACs. I do my 3D work on the PCs and the editing work on the MACs.

I would love to build an “off the grid” system for my house. If I was living in the country, I would do that. Here. people complain too much about Windmills.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

TOJ: The last Arena show I went to was the Grateful Dead. Other than the completely insane crowd, there was simply nothing to watch. The band was pathetic.

don’t you get deported for saying things like that???

Last arena show I saw was Dave Matthews. Amazing musicians and they put on a great show - however, no matter how good they were: 1) they were tiiiiiiiiiny little people off in the distance - you really couldn’t connect with them; and, 2) they were unable to compete with the power-drinking college girls to my right and the 2 kids on my left - a drunken girl giving a very drunken guy a “rhymes-with-snow-job”

GAH. Never going to an arena show again.

Now, my favorite musical event is watching the Glastonbury Festival on BBC every summer. All the great musicians, none of the waiting in line for a port-a-loo.

By Mara

January 31, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

Jack - I don’t think anyone disputes that Saddam had bio-weapons during the Iran-Iraq war. After all, we sold them to him to use on Iranian troops. While anyone with any decency is appalled by the deaths of the Kurd civilians in Halabja, don’t forget that mixed in with these innocents were Iranian soldiers and Kurdish “peshmerga” rebels.

But that’s not the point.

The question is whether he still had them in 2003. After the first Gulf War in ‘91, his capability was severely damaged. UN teams destroyed vast quantities of WMD throughout the decade. After Desert Fox in ‘98, his programs pretty much dried up completely. While various leftover weapons components from the 1980’s and 1990’s have been found, most weapons inspectors do not now believe that the chemical program proceeded after 1991. Evidence points to the programs being obsolete.

Saddam might have sent WMD’s to Syria. And the U.S. government might be using 9/11 fear to usher in a police state and promote militarism. Or it all could be the work of our Zionist masters…

By f(x) = 36x^2

January 31, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

So, along those lines, if it is only personal morality that you have an issue with, then you must agree that there is an absolute morality. However, I would argue that even that is not agreed upon to be absolute (you don’t think that Christians, Muslims, Agnostics, and Atheists all would have the same concept of absolute morality, do you?) So then, if law is based on any morality, it eventually boils down to personal morality when it is people that write the laws.

Well, I suspect that Christians, Muslims, agnostics and atheists (neither agnostic nor atheist is a proper noun, by the way, and so should not be capitalized) can all agree on at least one thing, as I’m sure can Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Ba’hai, Zoroastrians, and the members of all the other innumberable religious groups and faiths on this planet: none of them wishes to be lied to, stolen from or murdered.

The law is intended to ensure that we are able to coexist as a society without violating the basic rights of others. It is not intended to elevate one particular philosophy or idea of what is right and wrong over another. We have laws against driving under the influence because someone who does such can injure someone else, not because of a belief that drinking is wrong.

To suggest that religion is required for a moral or ethical code is very popular today in right-wing religious circles, possibly because it’s easier to devalue or dehumanize someone if you can view tham as immoral, but it is simply incorrect. There are whole disciplines of philosophy that revolve around moral and ethical systems which are not predicated upon religious belief.

By Jack

January 31, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Sorry Archie. They found shells with mustard gas & sarin gas. Not to forget yellow cake uranium. But I’m not going to waste my time arguing the facts with you. doubt it? Look it up you have a computer.

By lozen

January 31, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

USinUK, “Mind the Gap!” I loved riding the tube. Kept thinking how gypped we are in this country from giving up our street cars, trains and almost all public transport. The auto companies really did us in. The trains in Europe are incredible and being able to get from place to place so easily and affordably is great.

By Jack

January 31, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

“And the U.S. government might be using 9/11 fear to usher in a police state and promote militarism.”

Hi Mara. We the sheeple would not have a police state. We put up with a lot but never a police state, never happen.

Gotta run. later tater

By JonLovitz

January 31, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

Or it all could be the work of our Zionist masters

yeah, yeah, that’s it, that’s the ticket.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

Lozen …

I commute by train every day - 30 minutes from station to station - I get to read and just BE before I get to the office. WHAT a treat! I never want to sit in traffic ever again!!

Gotta love “Mind the Gap”!! Unfortunately, though, with Red Ken running London, the Tube isn’t as cheap as it used to be. The big jerk seems to think Londoners are made of £££ - and it should all go to him.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

By USinU

don’t you get deported for saying things like that???

Don’t forget. This is The Other Jack. I would have been deported long ago.

Last arena show I saw was Dave Matthews. Amazing musicians and they put on a great show - however, no matter how good they were: 1) they were tiiiiiiiiiny little people off in the distance - you really couldn’t connect with them; and, 2) they were unable to compete with the power-drinking college girls to my right and the 2 kids on my left - a drunken girl giving a very drunken guy a “rhymes-with-snow-job”

D*mn. Now there’s a show. I once dumped two 32 ounce Cokes in a kids lap because we couldn’t get him to shut up during a Steely Dan concert at the Omni. I was a bit buzzed at that one. No, I wasn’t driving.

Now, my favorite musical event is watching the Glastonbury Festival on BBC every summer. All the great musicians, none of the waiting in line for a port-a-loo.

I’ll check that out. I like the BBC. We don’t get all their networks here.

I traveled a lot in the Caribbean and went to a huge Mirange Festival in Curacao. Lots of great bands. I think it was televised all over the world except for the US.

Heard a singer named Maria (Wow, Latino woman named Maria. Never saw that one coming) She did a cover of a the Celine Deon Song that she did for the Atlanta Olympics. Wow. We should have used her version. It absolutely kicked.

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

but Jon Lovitz was Hanukkah Harry!!! He IS our Zionist Master!!!

By USinUK

January 31, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

TOJ -

Talking during Steely Dan? They were lucky they got away with just a Coke in their lap.

Glastonbury info: http://www.glastonburyfestivals.co.uk/

To say it’s huge does an injustice to the word. It’s not just a main stage and a “B” stage - it’s a main stage, a jazz stage, an acoustics stage, a new music stage, and a dance stage. If BBCAmerica doesn’t cover it, definitely check it out online.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Talking during Steely Dan? They were lucky they got away with just a Coke in their lap.

What a concert. The sexy sounding female backup singers were three HUGE women. I will never listen to Walk Between The Raindrops the same. (Yes, I know that was a Donald F* song, but they did several of his solo songs.)

Isn’t it funny how music brings people together. I wasn’t kidding about learning how to improvise. It’s just a matter of knowing which notes to play in whatever key you are playing in.

If you have a piano at home, copy that post and give it a try.

I lost the piano in the divorce. I now have some really nice keyboards but I miss the old Steinway. My ex had inherited it and we never had room for a 7’ grand, but we made room. After all, it was a Steinway. It sat in the dining room and we ate at the bar in the kitchen.

I think that is why my daughter loved to play it. It sounded fantastic.

By The Other Jack

January 31, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

USinUK

I just went to that site. I saw this:

“To buy a ticket for Glastonbury 2008, you MUST first register during February”

D*mn. Isn’t it in June? That would be a great excuse to go to England, but who plans 5 months ahead?

By Archie

January 31, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this

The question is whether he still had them in 2003 Thank you Mara!!! you got it. Also I posted just a little bit of a non-partisan,non-partisan report. Thank you Mara, “In 1992, after the first Gulf War, all highly enriched uranium - which could be used to make nuclear weapons - was shipped from Iraq to Russia, the IAEA’s Zlauvinen said.” The one time yellow cake was mentioned it was known to come from a false report and Bush knew the report was a forgery. The stuff I read about mustard gas was found on a FOX website and we know how non-partisan they are. I stand by the non-partisan report that’s been published for weeks because the things said in that study match up with other things that are known. One thing I do appreciate though is that Jack asked me to look it up and I did just that. My other point is that most people won’t even do that and they will form opinions based on emotion and prejudice thus making them easy marks for politicians.

Once again thanks Mara because I know you keep up with what’s going on.

By Accord

January 31, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Thx! :)

By Archie

January 31, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

Lozen check this out: Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton had this to say about it all in an e-mail to us:

“On 65 of the 99 votes that both Obama and Clinton voted on, they voted exactly the same way on all but two -– with Obama voting to strengthen the ethics bill by creating an Office of Public Integrity and Clinton voting against it.”

That’s the kind of thing that Obama supporters need to look at and the fact Obama was voted most liberal by the National Journal so if he gets the nomination he will be attacked.

By Newzwyre

February 1, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

Archie, the Republicans have taken to calling anyone and everyone who “liberal”, even each other. They’ve made “liberal” into a catch-all boogie-man that the designations “liberal” has essentially lost its sting. These days it might be worse to be known as a “conservative”.

John Cole at Balloon Juice - http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=9580

It sure would be nice to think that the base of the dwindling GOP is not as batsh-t insane as the nutters at the NRO, Red State, etc., but I have not seen much evidence of it. The thing that needs to be said, over and over, though, is that Rush Limbaugh and those guys simply aren’t conservatives. They just aren’t. Radically restructuring government to create an unaccountable executive is not conservative. Building a security apparatus that is designed to spy on citizens is not a conservative principle. Runaway spending and bloated budgets are not conservative ideas. Torture and permanent aggressive wars are not conservative principles. Fearmongering and keeping the electorate scared is not a conservative principle. And on and on.

The fact of the matter is the self-styled loud-mouth conservatives just aren’t very conservative.

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

TOJ:

Dmn. Isn’t it in June? That would be a great excuse to go to England, but who plans 5 months ahead?*

two words: cheaper airfare. two more words: hotel accommodation (you don’t really want to sleep in a tent, do you?) … although, hotel rooms are probably all gone by now.

Re: Donald F* - The Nightfly is in my Top 5 - definitely one of my “desert island discs” - and THE. PERFECT. soundtrack for any rainy day. Rounding out the rest of the Top 5: Ella Fitzgerald: Cole Porter songbook Elvis Costello: Punch the Clock (or anything pre-Spike) Cake: Any one of their albums - can’t help it, if I’m in a bad mood, they always set me right Beatles: Abbey Road - cuz if I don’t cite something by the The Beatles, the Stones or Radiohead, I’ll get deported.

Jealous of your Steinway - I played on an old, out-of-tune upright when I was learning as a kid. My elementary school best friend had a baby Steinway, though - talk about a sa-WEET sound! I loved visiting her house!

And, yes, it looks like we’ll always have music - and the mail room!! (just watch out for that BCD guy - he’s your evil twin … bad news)

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

By the way … just in case anyone is interested … if you’re tired of hearing about the subprime crisis and the housing crisis, start reading up on monoline bond insurance. It’s going to be the next HUGE hit to the economy.

This downturn ain’t over, folks … in fact, it’s just starting to gather steam.

By Monica

February 1, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

USinUK, what do you think of the tax rebate? Is it going to help kickstart the economy or launch the govt. deepter into defecit?

On another note: did you hear about the woman who mixed up her valium with her birth control pills? She has five kids, but she doesn’t care. :)

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

… oh, and, hey, look at that, the gov just announced that the US lost jobs in January as payrolls fell 17,000. And, as if that isn’t enough, hourly wages rose 3.7% on the year.

For those playing the game at home, inflation in January was 4.1% on the year.

Hourly wages up 3.7%. Inflation up 4.1%

Oh, yeah. Things are ducky.

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Monica -

USinUK, what do you think of the tax rebate?

I think you’ll see a repeat of what happened in 2002: people will use any rebate to pay off bills, doing nothing for the economy. Facts: According to the Fed, consumer credit increased at an annual rate of 7.2% in November ( we don’t have Q4 numbers in, yet), but this follows an increase of 6.5% in Q3, 5.3% in Q2 and 4.7% in Q1) - all adding up to a grand total of $2.5 trillion that households owe to credit cards, to car loans and to mortgages.

If folks’ paychecks aren’t meeting inflation, they’re going to look at this “bonus” as a windfall and use it to pay off any lingering Christmas debt or bring their winter heating bills back down to $0.

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Thanks to all for the input regarding talent. Sorry I was out sick and could not participate.

You all hit on some of the paradoxes that we did, and find solutions to are tricky. Seems to require some collective consciousness/reincarnation/god to make real sense - an absolutely “sterile” world where Darwinism is the only truth cannot explain it.

Lozen, By talent I was referring to the child prodigy type where one does not seem to have nurture it.

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

JokesOn -

Seems to require some collective consciousness/reincarnation/god to make real sense

mmmm … don’t know that it requires it to make sense … the brain is a weird world of wiring and chemicals. It’s what makes some people hear voices while others write symphonies at age 4.

Without guidance and nurturing, though, no talent would be fully realized (that’s what I meant when I said that, had Bobby Fisher never seen a chess board, he could have just as easily wound up a nutter on the street).

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

Without guidance and nurturing, though, no talent would be fully realized (that’s what I meant when I said that, had Bobby Fisher never seen a chess board, he could have just as easily wound up a nutter on the street).

In that example I agree, but it does not seem to apply to those who (although rarely exists) can, for example, play the piano the first time sitting at one or those that can do math at 4yrs old.

How would you propose explaining those people who can outperform normal people without any training? Seems you are attributing the ability to random chance, no?

By Jack

February 1, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

DRINKING WITH A REDNECK GIRL

A Mexican, an Iraqi, and a redneck girl are in the same bar. When the Mexican finishes his beer, he throws his glass in the air, pulls out his pistol, and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, “In Mexico our glasses are so cheap we don’t need to drink with the Same one twice.”

The Iraqi, obviously impressed by this, drinks his beer, throws into the air, pulls out his AK-47, and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, “In Iraq we have so much sand to make glasses that we don’t need to drink with the same one twice either.”

The redneck girl, cool as a cucumber, picks up her beer, downs it in one gulp, throws the glass into the air, whips out her .45, and shoots the Mexican and the Iraqi. Catching her glass, setting it on the bar,and calling for a refill, she says, “In America we have so many illegal aliens that we don’t have to drink with the same ones twice.”

Happy Friday!

By Flights

February 1, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

http://samanthadm.com/images/flights-to-manila ">flights to manila http://samanthadm.com/images/flights-to-Philippines ">flights to philippines

By Chilao

February 1, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Jack - a good article in the most recent Rolling Stone issue about the whole illegal immigrant crisis. Seems the talk show folks like Rush, etc, who built their careers ranting and raving against the Democrats, starting in 2000, with a GOP President AND a GOP Congress, could no longer blame all the screwups going on on the Democrats, so basically manufactured the latest cause of all our ills, the illegal immigrant.

I am not saying I agree 100 percent with it, but it was certainly a Good Read. (I do consider Rush Limbaugh the Master of Misinformation) LOL

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

How would you propose explaining those people who can outperform normal people without any training? Seems you are attributing the ability to random chance, no?

yep, I am. I do think it’s random that some people have certain areas of their brain that are wired so that they are born knowing things like what day of the week it was 57 years ago or how to do complicated mathematics or can remember the contents of a page, having only seen it once.

I’ve only seen a few programs about the chemistry of the brain and they both frightened and overwhelmed me. One small DNA code out of whack and your body can produce a little too much of a particular chemical and there you go, hearing voices. Take the same problem and change the setting to a couple of hundred years ago, folks would have thought you were either touched by god or possessed.

I guess what I’m saying is that I do think it’s random rather than god or reincarnation because we have only really just begun to understand how the brain works.

By BaseBorn

February 1, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

USinUK

two words: cheaper airfare. two more words: hotel accommodation (you don’t really want to sleep in a tent, do you?) … although, hotel rooms are probably all gone by now.

You are right. So I guess the only alternative is to stay with you and your Hubby. I’m sure he would understand. LOL!!

I am supposed to go to Europe in July, but last year the trip fell through. That nasty little thing between Israel and Lebanon screwed it up. We were supposed to go to Lebanon.

Re: Donald F - The Nightfly is in my Top 5 - definitely one of my “desert island discs” - and THE. PERFECT. soundtrack for any rainy day.*

That was the Album I wanted to write when I was a kid. I would have called it As Far Back As Fifth Street. It was going to be about all the hopes and dreams of growing up in the 50s and 60s. But the reality is that I’ve only written two songs. They were both born of the necessity of needing a piece of music for a video I was putting together. One was called Jack’s Jam. (Give me a break. It was three o’clock in the morning) And the other, horribly enough was called Missing Children. It was written for the old Missing Children Network. This was when kid’s faces were first put on milk cartons.

Jack’s Jam earned me the trade out on a beautiful old Bolex 16mm film camera. http://homepage.newschool.edu/~schlemoj/film_courses/bolex.html II rented that thing to every hip hop video that was done in Atlanta during the 90s. It is small and handheld and is a wind up, so other than changing out the film, it was effortless. I shot a little during the Olympics with it and took it to the Dominican Republic, but I was never the cinematographer for the videos.

Sorry I am rambling, here. This has been an interesting morning. I actually need some advice if you are interested.

Rounding out the rest of the Top 5: Ella Fitzgerald:

I am a huge Aretha Fan. I have her early CDs, one was produced by Mitch Miller (Sing along with Mitch) She does the old tune Groovin’. One of my favorites.

Cole Porter songbook Elvis Costello: Punch the Clock (or anything pre-Spike) Cake: Any one of their albums - can’t help it, if I’m in a bad mood, they always set me right

I am a big James Taylor fan. Mainly because his music is so much more challenging to play than you would ever realize. Extremely complicated Jazz chords and I really like his words. Seems like as I get older, strangely enough, so does he. LOL He speaks to me, if you know what I mean.

Beatles: Abbey Road - cuz if I don’t cite something by the The Beatles, the Stones or Radiohead, I’ll get deported.

The Beatles. Wasn’t it amazing? They really did change the world. And I haven’t liked anything any of them attempted separately. Lennon was just too angry and McCartney was just too silly. But together, they were perfect.

Jealous of your Steinway - I played on an old, out-of-tune upright when I was learning as a kid. My elementary school best friend had a baby Steinway, though - talk about a sa-WEET sound! I loved visiting her house!

Well, I wouldn’t exactly call it my Steinway. Once our daughter goes off to college, my ex is planning on moving into the city and buying a condo. She is wanting me to buy it from her, but if I was going to buy a $20,000 toy, I would buy a Ferrari 308GTS that I have been lusting over for about two months. I can’t even come close to affording either one. I would hate to see it go on ebay, but that is probably what will happen to it.

And, yes, it looks like we’ll always have music - and the mail room!! (just watch out for that BCD guy - he’s your evil twin … bad news)

Ah, those big corporate guys. Don’t cha just hate em? LOL

By Jack

February 1, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Hi Chilao. Long time no hear. I thought it was a decent joke and today is Friday. IMO I think all of the politicians of both parties are crooks. Incumbents should never be re-elected. Hope all is well with you. I’ll see if I can find another good one to post for joke Friday

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

I guess what I’m saying is that I do think it’s random rather than god or reincarnation because we have only really just begun to understand how the brain works.

I can understand where you are coming from. I am more skeptical since some areas are so man made, like the piano, that one must ask how the brain would have a setting for such a device.

You would have to believe that since the human brain created the piano, that it has the capability to ‘know’ a piano even before it exists, and then randomly be hard wired to ‘get it.’ That, for me, surpasses the degree of possibilities I am comfortable with, and the more probable solution would be, as mentioned, collective consciousness.

By Chilao

February 1, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

Jack - HI; yes, I know it is joke Friday, but for some reason I was reminded of what I read a few nights ago, that is all. LOL

By kistov

February 1, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

http://index1.vehal.com >american red cross volunteer dental assistant program

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

TOJ - stop changing your monniker!!!

So I guess the only alternative is to stay with you and your Hubby.

haha … that’d be a loooooong commute to G’bury everyday! Too bad about missing your trip to Lebanon, though - Anthony Bourdain was there last year when the Isrealis were bombing and said that it was a fantastic city - great people. I would go just for the food. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm … lebanese food …

With you on ReRe - my god, what a voice!! I like James for his lyrics - and I love-love-LOVED his collaboration with Mark Knopfler a few years ago - talk about a pair that were made for each other! The Beatles I liked after they started messing with drugs - their “I Wanna Hold Your Hand” era just doesn’t do it for me. And I think that “Eleanor Rigby” is probably one of the most sublime songs ever written. The words, the rhythem. Everything about it.

I actually need some advice if you are interested.

Don’t know if I can help, but all I’m doing right now is working on economic charts, so fire away.

By Newzwyre

February 1, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

MySpace deletes hacked Web site for atheists and agnostics

Thursday, January 31, 2008

by David Briggs - Plain Dealer Religion Reporter

It isn’t easy being godless online.

For the third time in three years, what may be the largest group of organized atheists in the world is struggling to stay on MySpace, said a Cleveland State University assistant professor who founded the site for nonbelievers.

MySpace deleted the 35,000-member “Atheist and Agnostic Group” on Jan. 1, a little more than a month after hackers broke in and renamed the group’s site “Jesus Is Love,” Bryan Pesta said Wednesday.

MySpace has ignored repeated requests to restore the group’s site, including an online petition with more than 500 signatures, said Pesta, who was the group’s moderator. “These actions send a clear message to the 30 million godless people in America that we are not welcome on MySpace,” Pesta said.

A MySpace spokeswoman did not return calls seeking comment.

Pesta started the group in 2004 as a social networking site “specifically for godless people.” Atheists are more likely to be geographically spread out, and the online group provided a sense of community, he said. “We’re regular people, just like Christians, Muslims and Jews,” he said. “We like to network.”

The site grew by about 10,000 people a year to just under 35,000 members by the end of 2007, Pesta said.

But it was never without controversy. Two years ago, Pesta said, MySpace deleted the group after an organized campaign from Christians opposing the site. MySpace restored it and promised it would be protected. Last Thanksgiving, hackers broke into the group’s site, deleting material and renaming it “Jesus Is Love.” MySpace restored the site three weeks later but then shut it down this year, Pesta said.

The group was an important resource for nonbelievers, supporters said. Hollis Geary, a group member from Lyndhurst, said she appreciated having a site where nonbelievers could meet and bounce ideas off each other amid the freedom and anonymity of the Web. We’re a pretty quiet minority,” she said. “There’s just a lot of people that are atheist, agnostic or curious” who don’t come out publicly.

http://www.cleveland.com/living/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/living-0/1201772086310820.xml&coll=2

By The Other Jack

February 1, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

USinUK

That’s ok. I would have to take so long to explain the problem that this is just not the place. I’ll figure it out.

My sister had Meet The Beatles. I agree that bubble gum was not the Beatle’s strong suit. Let it Be was one of my favorites but there are so many great songs.

JT lost his brother and wrote an album about death. That album got me through the death of a dear friend and the deaths of several of my favorite relatives. (Uncles and aunts, they just got old)

My ex called this morning and told me that her Grandfather, the person who gave her the Steinway when his wife died, was just put in Hospice. Really good guy. He is 94 so he has had a full life, but I just put the CD back on.

Music heals.

Have a great weekend. I may check in later today.

By The Other Jack

February 1, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

USinUK

It’s this d*mn laptop. I am working between my computers and I had tried to lighten things up a bit yesterday before we started talking. It makes me change the moniker every time and I just forgot.

By USinUK

February 1, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

TOJ-

Have a great weekend. I may check in later today.

You have a good one, too … I’ll be out until Monday.

By lozen

February 1, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

The above post by “BaseBorn” shows that TOJ, BCD and BaseBorn are all the same person.

f(x) = 36x^2 loved your 12:29 post.

Jack, my dear, you and my daughter-in-law. You’re the only two people I know who still insist Saddam had WMD.

JokesOn, I agree with UsinUK. We really don’t need a supernatural being to explain talent. I don’t think we have the knowledge to explain it at this point. But it could very well be genetic, brain wiring, etc. As far as collective consciousness - that’s a possibility. Some people believe everything is created by the collective brain of humanity.

By Monica

February 1, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Hey Jack, how can you tell if a politician is lying? Their lips are moving. :)

By lozen

February 1, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

You would have to believe that since the human brain created the piano, that it has the capability to ‘know’ a piano even before it exists, and then randomly be hard wired to ‘get it.’ And just think how long ago humans started making music. The piano, guitar, etc. are improvements on simpler instruments used thousands of years ago! Our brains are definitely wired for rhythm, for making music and dancing. The first things a group of people does once they have taken care of basic needs is make music, dance, and fement something! Newswyre, I’ve had gay friends tell me it’s a lot easier to come out as a gay person than to come out as an atheist. There is such a stigma, but once you get to know one of us and realize we don’t go around murdering, cheating, stealing, etc any more than xtians…..

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

The piano, guitar, etc. are improvements on simpler instruments used thousands of years ago!

Yes, that is true - to an extent. If you cannot not expect someone who played a harpsichord (a one note at a time instrument) to be able to know/understand cords, how do you explain a 4yr old being able to play not only chords, but advanced progressions? Scales and their derivatives, progression and chords, are man made structures.

By Mara

February 1, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

JokesOn - how do you explain a 4yr old being able to play not only chords, but advanced progressions

most scientist believe, and most relevant studies show, that it’s all in the structure of the brain. Not necessarily the size, but the volume and density.

Though most studies have focused on “intelligence”, the theory should hold true for other prodigies as well.

“A 2004 study at the University of California, Irvine found that the volume of gray matter in parts of the cerebral cortex had a greater impact on intelligence than the brain’s total volume. The findings suggest that specific physical attributes of certain stuctures of the brain may partially determine in what ways a person excels intellectually.”

“The researchers found that Einstein’s brain was actually slightly smaller than the average brain. However, parts of his parietal lobe were wider than average. The areas that were larger in Einstein’s brain are known to be related to mathematics and spatial reasoning. Einstein’s parietal lobe was almost completely missing a fissure found in most people’s brains, which suggested that different regions of his brain could communicate with each other in ways that “ordinary” people brains do not.”

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/09/newtons-childre.html

So I’d say that genetics, brain development, interest, and curiosity probably have a great deal to do with it. One can always argue about why one persons brain develops differently, but I think that brain structure can as easily explain genius (or talent) as it can madness.

By lozen

February 1, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Here’s a truly heartwarming story about the bond formed between a little 5-year-old girl and some construction workers that will make you believe that we all can make a difference when we give a child the gift of our time.

A young family moved into a house, next to a vacant lot. One day, a construction crew turned up to start building a house on the empty lot.

The young family’s 5-year-old daughter naturally took an interest in all the activity going on next door and spent much of each day observing the workers.

Eventually the construction crew, all of them gems-in-the-rough,” more or less, adopted her as a kind of project mascot. They chatted with her, let her sit with them while they had coffee and lunch breaks, and gave her little jobs to do here and there to make her feel important.

At the end of the first week, they even presented her with a pay envelope containing ten dollars. The little girl took this home to her mother who suggested that she take her ten dollars “pay” she’d received to the bank the next day to start a savings account.

When the girl and her mom got to the bank, the teller was equally impressed and asked the little girl how she had come by her very own pay check at such a young age.

The little girl proudly replied, “I worked last week with a real work crew building the new house next door to us.” “Oh my goodness gracious,” said the teller, “and will you be working on the house again this week, too?”

The little girl replied, “I will, if those asxholes at Home Depot ever deliver the f******* sheet rock…”

By Monica

February 1, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

Scales and their derivatives, progression and chords, are man made structures.

Or are they? I’m not trying to dredge up a debate on Friday, but if you happen to believe in a divine creator (as I do), then that creator could have wired our brains with the knowledge of intricate aspects of music, as well as science, math, etc.

I think most of us agree on the awe and wonder of the brain; we just differ on its origin.

By The Other Jack

February 1, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

JokesON

Not picking here, but just hear me out.

A harpsichord can play several notes at a time. The difference between a piano and a harpsichord is the way the note is produced. A harpsichord plucks the strings while a piano strikes the string.

The piano was a huge improvement over the harpsichord because a person could only play one volume, no matter how hard the keys were struck with the harpsichord. The piano was first called a pianoforte because of the fact that piano means softly in music and forte means more powerful or louder. The piano could produce both volumes and everything in between.

The early synthesizers like the Moog or the ARP 2600 could only play one note so that may be what you are thinking about.

Of course the later synthesizers like the multi-moog and the Memory Moog was capable of not only playing polyphonic (several notes at a time), but it could also memorize the settings and allow the player to recall the same sound every time. Before that there were a lot of analog dials that were very hard to control and get the sounds just like you wanted them. With memory, once the sound was exactly right, that sound could be stored to a digital switch or number in a menu.

Again, not picking here. I just saw a mistake.

By lozen

February 1, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Why did the chicken cross the road?

DR. PHIL: The problem we have here is that this chicken won’t realize that he must first deal with the problem on ‘THIS’ side of the road before it goes after the problem on the ‘OTHER SIDE’ of the road. What we need to do is help him realize how stupid he’s acting by not taking on his ‘CURRENT’ problems before adding ‘NEW’ problems.

OPRAH: Well, I understand that the chicken is having problems, which is why he wants to cross this road so bad. So instead of having the chicken learn from his mistakes and take falls, which is a part of life, I’m going to give this chicken a car so that he can just drive across the road and not live his life like the rest of the chickens.

DR SEUSS: Did the chicken cross the road? Did he cross it with a toad? Yes, the chicken crossed the road, but why it crossed I’ve not been told.

GEORGE W. BUSH: We don’t really care why the chicken crossed the road. We just want to know if the chicken is on our side of the road, or not. The chicken is either against us, or for us. There is no middle ground here.

COLIN POWELL: Now to the left of the screen, you can clearly see the satellite image of the chicken crossing the road…

PAT BUCHANAN: To steal the job of a decent, hardworking American.

MARTHA STEWART: No one called me to warn me which way that chicken was going. I had a standing order at the Farmer’s Market to sell my eggs when the price dropped to a certain level. No little bird gave me any insider information.

ERNEST HEMINGWAY: To die in the rain. Alone.

JERRY FALWELL : Because the chicken was gay ! Can’t you people see the plain truth?’ That’s why they call it the ‘other side.’ Yes, my friends, that chicken is gay. And if you eat that chicken, you will become gay too. I say we boycott all chickens until we sort out this abomination that the liberal media white washes with seemingly harmless phrases like ‘the other side’. That chicken should not be crossing the road. It’s as plain and as simple as that.

BARBARA WALTERS: Isn’t that intewesting? In a few moments, we will be wistening to the chicken tell, for the first time, the heart warming story of how it experienced a serious case of molting, and went on to accomplish its wife long dweam of cwossing the road.

JOHN LENNON: Imagine all the chickens in the world crossing roads together, in peace.

ARISTOTLE: It is the nature of chickens to cross the road.

BILL GATES: I have just released eChicken2007, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your check book. Internet Explorer is an integral part of eChicken.

ALBERT EINSTEIN: Did the chicken really cross the road, or did the road move beneath the chicken?

BILL CLINTON: I did not cross the road with THAT chicken. What is your definition of chicken?

AL GORE : I invented the chicken!

DICK CHENEY : Where’s my gun?

By Mara

February 1, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

on the other hand, music and art are just different ways to express mathmatic truth/reality…

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

I’m not trying to dredge up a debate on Friday, but if you happen to believe in a divine creator (as I do), then that creator could have wired our brains with the knowledge of intricate aspects of music, as well as science, math, etc.

Understand that your belief system is not much different than mine. Yet, I do operate very differently in that I exhaust all natural explanations before applying “god” as an answer. Also, if I do resort to “god” as the answer to a question, I must then test the feasibility of that: How equal are we really created if few have extreme talent, like Mozart and einstein, compared to a slave that had no comparable talent and died a brutal death at 22yo?

The point being it is hard for me to imagine any god that meddles in such minute but profound ways. The god I imagine created a system that sustains/corrects itself. That is why I keep going back to collective conscious, it evolves with us as part of the system he created, but without his interventions.

A harpsichord can play several notes at a time.

Forgot that volume was the limiting factor of the harpsichord.

What keyed instrument was it that could only be played one note at a time then? I know it was when christianity would not allow more than one because the chaos would move people away from god, which was (i think i remember correctly) during the Benedictine era. I know it starts (the era) with a “b.”

By Jack

February 1, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Lozen. That 2:40 was hilarious. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

By The Other Jack

February 1, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

JokesON

What keyed instrument was it that could only be played one note at a time then?

I don’t know of any old instruments. Like I said, synthesizers first would only play one note.

A clavier could also play several notes but was “tempered” which is a way to tune a stringed instrument which makes it easier to sing with.

Pipe organ? Maybe some weird early Pipe organ because of the limitations on early air pumps, but I have never really heard of that.

Of course almost all wind instruments are monophonic. (Trumpet, Sax, etc.) I went to Wikipedia, but only got about a million articles on synthesizers.

I think you may have something confused. I didn’t study music in college other than be in the marching and jazz bands so I only know what I have read.

There may very well be something, but I don’t know what it is. If you find it, please let me know.

By Jack

February 1, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

God didn’t give me musical talent but I can fix anything.

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

Pipe organ? Maybe some weird early Pipe organ because of the limitations on early air pumps, but I have never really heard of that.

May have been and would fit with the era. I will look into it this weekend.

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Example:

I caught a documentary on a guy who was your iconic engineer (socially inept, very structural, etc) until a blade or saw of some sort cut into his brain.

After waking from a coma and rehabilitation was through, he kept having dreams of sculpting and painting American Indians. He did not have any in his heritage or any knowledge of their culture.

Well, his dreams began to drive him nuts and so one day he began carving in order to express them. His first piece was a totally accurate and realistic bust, headdress and all.

Although this type of switch usually does not happen in people after birth, it is the type of talent I am talking about. Just being able to do something unnatural to the “normal” human condition/experience from birth.

By JokesOn

February 1, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

“b” for perhaps Byzantine? (sp?)

Naw. I looked it up and the era was in fact the Benedictine.

I didn’t study music in college other than be in the marching and jazz bands so I only know what I have read.

You still have enough knowledge to understand what I am referring to when talking about progression and scale being arbitrary. Seems there is a delicate balance between harmony and dissonance that turns people on - definitely not mathematic beyond a point, although the relationship between the golden spiral and circle of fifths is spooky…