AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2007 > December > 15 > Entry
Is There a War on Christmas?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
For the past few years, America has been fighting a difficult war.
No, not that one.
It’s the “war” Fox News commentator Bill O’Reilly and his “cultural warriors” battle every December, trying to save Christmas. Frothing at the mouth for hours of air time, O’Reilly extrapolates from church vs. state skirmishes and politically correct marketing efforts a national conspiracy to eradicate Christmas.
It’s ironic, because what this avowed patriot is actually railing against couldn’t be more American: the First Amendment. Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center, explains the guiding principle- simply, to “treat people of all faiths or none with fairness and respect.” Therefore, holiday programs “shouldn’t make any students feel excluded or identified with a religion not their own.” Religious music shouldn’t dominate a choral program, but can be included. Public seasonal displays should contain both secular and religious elements.
Some school and city officials choose to excise the holidays completely in order to avoid offense. Haynes, a consultant to school districts, feels that year-round education on various religions is a more effective way to mitigate the “December Dilemma”. Though well versed on all viewpoints of the issue, he still doesn’t understand the attack on more all-encompassing greetings like “Happy Holidays”: “People who use that expression are just trying to be kind.”
One of the more insidious aspects of this trumped-up “war” is an eagerness to blame everything on what Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council calls “over-zealous secularist officials.” Clever indeed. Pretend the separation of church and state only matters to secular leftists and the rabid right won’t sound like they’re trying to propagate a religious crusade.
Plenty of Christians find this annual “campaign” unsavory, with its militaristic lingo and threatening stocking stuffers. A red wristband demanding “Just Say Merry Christmas” begs the question: is this something Jesus would wear?
Still, if I was forced to pick a gift from the Christmas war catalog, I guess I’d go with Bill O’ Reilly’s- I kid you not- “Culture Warrior” doormat. At least that way I could be sure not to track this ugliness into my house, especially during the holidays.
Rebuttal
“Religious music shouldn’t dominate a choral program?” About Christmas? Is it any wonder that Christmas feels under attack?
Every year, more municipalities, companies, shops and schools ban nativity scenes, enforce “Winter Holiday” lingo or — as Fort Collins did recently — create a “Holiday Display Task Force” to ensure there are no public-property displays of traditional Christmas references. Not even colored lights. Isolated instances have become mainstream - and repeated by the thousands. School choir directors from Virginia to Wisconsin don’t want to change the words of Christmas carols, but (incorrectly) feel like they are supposed to, or are told to, “just to be safe.” So “Silent Night” becomes “Cold in the Night.” (“I wish I were happy and warm, safe with my family out of the storm.”) Residents of HUD-subsidized senior homes from Florida to California are told they can no longer invite in carolers or even put up their own religious decorations on their doors. Company employees, shopkeepers, teachers, and parents from Texas to New York are told to remove traditional Christmas references from decorations and “think snowman” instead.
And those beleaguered city Christmas trees feel like the remaining veterans from WWII; we’re glad they’re still around, but is this their last Christmas? For 34 years, Nova Scotia has given a tree to the City of Boston, which is then named the Boston Christmas Tree. Until this year. It’s now the Boston Holiday Tree.
Maybe we should take a cue from England. Trevor Phillips, the Equality and Human Rights Commission Chairman, invited non-Christian leaders to help keep Christmas alive. Shayk Ibrahim Mogra, a Bristish Muslim leader, answered best with, “To suggest celebrating Christmas and having decorations offends Muslims is absurd. Why should Christmas not be celebrated openly and wholeheartedly in our country when a vast majority of people are Christians?”
Silent Night, Holy Night. All is calm, all is bright. Round yon virgin, mother and child. Holy infant, so tender and mild…
Despite increasing concern over the removal of Christ from Christmas, that holy infant came to bring tidings of great joy and love. And in the debate over preserving the reason for the season, we cannot defend love with a lack of it.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By hipnoj
December 15, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By hipnoj
December 15, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By hipnoj
December 15, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By hipnoj
December 15, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By korent
December 15, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By korent
December 15, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By korent
December 15, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By korent
December 15, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
http://index1.menagu.com >adultfunxxx
By JokesOn
December 16, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this
Each year the same question and false dilemma.
By Terry
December 16, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
What a private business does or does not do concerning Christmas is, and should be, a decision left solely in the hands of each company. Whether or not I support their decision can be clearly seen in where I choose to spend my money. That seems simple enough.
However, the federal government may not use my taxes to directly or indirectly support any religion over any other. Spending federal monies on Christmas trees, Christmas displays, and the like violates this separation. As Thomas Jefferson said “To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”
And, due to the 14th admendment, all states must also conform with the separation clause.
Why is this so hard for people to understand?
By JokesOn
December 16, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this
Why is this so hard for people to understand?
I do not know Terry, but they will show up and argue that they are being discriminated against/this is a christian country/or that no notion of separation exists. Just wait and see.
By Larry
December 16, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
There are tons of traditional non-religious Christmas decorations and “Happy Holidays” has been in use for years. Shaunti, you should have used “religious” where you used “traditional.” Shame on you.
If you don’t like the generic school holiday names, take it up with a group of like minded Christians, because that’s where it started. The two initial legal cases (in Pennsylvania and Ohio) that challenged public schools closing solely for religious holidays weren’t over Christmas vacation, they were over Jewish holidays. Shaunti, want to take a guess at the religion of the plaintiffs in both cases? I’ll give you a hint; it wasn’t the Jewish kids’ parents.
After your kind won both cases and public schools can’t close solely for religious holidays, here you are crying crocodile tears because you have to abide by the same legal standards as everyone else.
More than infuriating is watching you people boycott businesses that won’t specifically recognize your religious holiday while simultaneously claiming to be under attack because you can’t spend public tax money on your religion.
I’m going to stop before you have to delete my post.
By D
December 16, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this
I have a couple arguments to make here. First, the First Amendment specifically forbids the “establishment” of a religion, not the acknowledgment of it and I think that is how it should be interpreted (although no religion should be forced on anyone) Second, people should stop being offended that people choose to live their lives differently than other people — more people in history have been killed because they worship God differently than the ones who killed in the name of God. Third, just to throw this in, why don’t we try to celebrate Christmas around the time Christ was actually born, not in December. The early Church took over the Pagan celebration of the winter solstice for Christmas to make it easier to convert. Biblical evidence shows the actual birth of Christ either in Spring or Fall, not late December for sure. That way, we don’t have competing “holidays” to have the Holiday/Christmas “controversial buzzword” (thanks for that term Kathy Cox) issue going around.
By BREAKING NEWS!!
December 16, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this
Amalgamated Press, December 16, 2007:
A spokesman for the Lord Jesus Christ announced at a press conference Sunday that The Christians are firing their long-time Public Relations Firm Asholy & Budtweip Associates. According to spokesman Heywood Yadurite, Christ’s public image is at an all-time low as atheism and agnositicism are soaring. “Recent efforts to turn this around have been disastrous,” said Yadurite. “We cautioned Asholy & Budtweip against collaborating with the likes of Bill O’Reilly, but it seems they had their own political agenda. This ‘war on Christmas’ campaign was the last straw. No one believed it, and the fence-sitters complain, rightfully so, that their intelligence is being insulted. The Lord is not pleased that His real message is being subverted by opportunists playing politics with a false message.”
“In just the last century, Christians have been led to believe that science is at odds with God the Creator!” said a clearly agitated Yadurite. “How is it possible that the Creator of everything didn’t create SCIENCE?” he asked, pounding his fist on the podium.
Yadurite cited several other grievances against the way The Lord’s Image has been represented, including its long-standing use in defense of slavery and racism, justification for war and murder, rhetoric quoted by church goers around the world that it is only necessary to love those who are just like them, and the erosion of the basic tenets of humility, sacrifice, forgiveness, and charity.
While The Christians have not yet decided who will replace Asholy & Budtweip in representing The Lord’s Image, Yadurite expressed The Christians’ wish that The Lord Jesus Christ’s real message be shared by and for all who will listen: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself,” he said. “Even if you think your neighbor has nothing in common with you, or if he lives on the other side of the world.” Yadurite began to speak more slowly as he continued, a tear welling up in his eye. “If a man asks you for your coat, give him your shirt as well. It’s a metaphor, people! Can you understand what it means? Begrudge not those who are less fortunate, for you have fortune.”
The reporters fell silent as Yadurite continued: “Pray for your ememies. Even those who are evil love those who love them. Be better than they are! Forgive those who ask forgiveness. Forego earthly wealth by sharing and giving. Comfort the sick, mad, disabled, and incarcerated. BE the healing touch in the life of another! The Lord Jesus is the way, the truth and the light because His message IS the light! Shine this light, not darkness or hate, and we CAN, YOU… ME… we ALL can truly save the world. Peace and love to you my brothers and sisters. Peace and LOVE!”
By J. Lennon
December 16, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this
Well, imagine that…
By Vilyamwt
December 16, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this
http://index1.kabity.com >shaved p*** pictures [url=http://index1.kabity.com]shaved p*** pictures[/url]
By Vilyamwt
December 16, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this
http://index1.kabity.com >shaved p*** pictures [url=http://index1.kabity.com]shaved p*** pictures[/url]
By Vilyamua
December 16, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
http://index1.qusetu.com >latinaspassions [url=http://index1.qusetu.com]latinaspassions[/url]
By Vilyamua
December 16, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
http://index1.qusetu.com >latinaspassions [url=http://index1.qusetu.com]latinaspassions[/url]
By Vilyamua
December 16, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this
http://index1.qusetu.com >latinaspassions [url=http://index1.qusetu.com]latinaspassions[/url]
By Vilyamop
December 17, 2007 1:54 AM | Link to this
http://index1.qusetu.com >latinaspassions [url=http://index1.qusetu.com]latinaspassions[/url]
By Vilyamop
December 17, 2007 1:54 AM | Link to this
http://index1.qusetu.com >latinaspassions [url=http://index1.qusetu.com]latinaspassions[/url]
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this
BREAKING NEWS!!
It is no surprise that you can’t be civil and respectful. It’s a big joke to the segment of our population that thinks that someone pushed a demolition button and downed the WTC just so we could go to war. That sort of conspiracy is totally acceptable, but taking religion out of Christmas, . . Nah. It’s just the imagination of conservatives.
You can’t even hold back your slobbering insults long enough to give an opinion. It’s no surprise that you want anything that is dear to anyone who does not think like you to be abolished. You are vile and hateful and not having you celebrate the birth of Christ is no big lose to anyone.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this
It is so funny to see liberals spending all that money on Halloween. They can’t celebrate Christmas. It just isn’t done. How un-cool could a liberal be if it was discovered that they celebrated a traditional anything. Traditional … conservative … it’s almost the same word.
It really p** me off that this bunch of sheep has succeeded in making the wishing of a Merry Christmas a controversial thing, while they embrace the celebration of Halloween.
And why? Who does it hurt?
Everyone is whining about the government spending money on Christmas decorations. Try reading the article, half-wits.
The slobbering on this forum is already disgusting.
How about if we start worshiping and celebrating the birth of Al Gore. Watch the Earthday concert ansd see how many people say that they “believe in him.”
Liberals are sheep. And this forum is living proof.
By Watta Load
December 17, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this
Shaunti’s example of a school changing silent night is bogus:
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/14/silent-night-fraud/ http://mediamatters.org/items/200601040009
The HUD example is bogus too…it’s not HUD policy from Florida to California (notice that this probably means Florida and maybe California).. This was basically one incident by an overzealous administrator that has been corrected…Here is HUD’s official statement:
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development continues to strongly support and respect the display of all religious symbols on properties receiving HUD assistance. We discourage anyone from interfering in the free exercise of religion and prohibiting residents from celebrating the joys of the season
Shaunti…you are not only intellectually dishonest but just plain lazy…do you even try and verify some of your ridiculous claims?
Whenever I blog, I always search the internet for an opposing view before I post something..especially if what I would post is so easily discredited. Shaunti must think her readers are just stupid or simply lemmings…either way it’s insulting.
By Troglodyke
December 17, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this
The “war on Xmas” is, and has always been, completely ridiculous. It’s a way for the Religious Right to make money off the sheep, and it works fantastically well.
Xmas has been overcommercialized and watered down for many years. People spend billions of dollars on unnecessary items every single year, and the majority of the spending is done by people who go into debt to do it.
Guess what? These aren’t atheists and “secularists” spending this money. If the “true meaning of Xmas has been destroyed, it’s Christians that have destroyed it with their allegiance to the Almighty dollar.
You can whine about a “war” all you like, but most intelligent people can see through it.
Believe it or not, there are many believers who are against the gov’t using tax dollars to put up creches in the public square. It’s not just us heathens. Many of us couldn’t care less.
I’m not the least bit offended by people saying “Merry Christmas” this time of year…DUH..it IS Christmas. Just because I don’t believe in the story doesn’t mean it isn’t that time of year. Shop all you want, go into debt so your kids can have stuff they don’t need, sing your carols (some of them are quite pretty), put up your “Jesus is the reason” signs. It doesn’t bother me one bit. Why should it?
I’m so sick of “atheists and secularists” being blamed for anything that even appears to decry belief. You people are reaching.
Christians are to blame for most of the things they rail at unbelievers for. Your intolerance, anti-intellectualism and rigidity are doing you in. You don’t need our help.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this
Watta Load
thinkprogress.org mediamatters ? LOL!!
If we post something from the Limbaugh letter will you give it any credibility?
Do you ever read anything that is NOT overt liberal propaganda?
Your brain is turning into indoctrinated mush.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this
Troglodyke
LOL You should take a minute and actually read what you post.
You first said: The “war on Xmas” is, and has always been, completely ridiculous. It’s a way for the Religious Right to make money off the sheep, and it works fantastically well.
And then in the very next sentence you wrote: Xmas has been overcommercialized and watered down for many years.
So what has it been watered down from? It is a celebration of the birth of Christ. Secularist want it to become even more commercial and less religious.
You don’t even know what you are against. LOL!! You just saw a chance to complain about people who are not like you and couldn’t resist jumping in.
By Troglodyke
December 17, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this
It is so funny to see liberals spending all that money on Halloween. They can’t celebrate Christmas. It just isn’t done. How un-cool could a liberal be if it was discovered that they celebrated a traditional anything. Traditional … conservative … it’s almost the same word.
I’m not a liberal, but a lot of liberals do celebrate Christmas, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Other people besides right-wingers have traditions, even religious ones. Your argument would be slightly more convincing if you replaced the word “liberal” with “unbeliever.”
Halloween isn’t a religious holiday. That’s why it’s so fun.
It really p me off that this bunch of sheep has succeeded in making the wishing of a Merry Christmas a controversial thing, while they embrace the celebration of Halloween.**
What’s your point? Xtians make Halloween controversial, because they have no understanding of what it really is. Come to think of it, many Xtians have no idea what the true meaning of Xmas is, either. If Xmas has lost it’s meaning, it’s the Xtians’ fault. Atheists aren’t spending billions of dollars they don’t have on presents no one needs.
And why? Who does it hurt?
It doesn’t hurt anyone. I am in agreement that people who are offended by “Merry Christmas” or private displays of religious symbols are narrow-minded and small. (Public, taxpayer-funded displays are wrong, but I don’t technically get “offended” by them.)
*Liberals are sheep. And this forum is living proof. *
That may very well be so, but believers are the original sheep. So pot, meet kettle.
ANY group who blindly follows dogma can be considered sheep. Religious believers are the most egregious.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this
Love is a gift
That has no cost
It can’t be earned
And can’t be bought
.
Love is a gift
Of grace and care
Given by God
For us to share
.
By Troglodyke
December 17, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
So what has it been watered down from? It is a celebration of the birth of Christ.
Of course it is. But do you not agree that to most people, the “reason for the season” has been lost? I hear Xtians bemoaning this all the time. Are you saying that it hasn’t been overcommercialized?
**Secularist want it to become even more commercial and less religious.
No, secularists don’t celebrate it, so why would we want it to become anything? It can be the Most Religious Thing Ever. That’s fine with me. I don’t celebrate it as the birth of Christ, OR as a reason to overspend.
You don’t even know what you are against. LOL!! You just saw a chance to complain about people who are not like you and couldn’t resist jumping in.**
I am against Xtians bemoaning how “secularists” are ruining the holiday, when it is clearly being ruined by believers.
The “war on Xmas” by “secularists” is a concoction, a figment.
If anyone is waging a war on Xmas, it’s the believers.
Wanna know what I want? Stop blaming nonbelievers for the troubles of the church. That’s all I want. You can celebrate all your religious holidays to your hearts’ content.
We atheists know we are in the minority, and most of us stay quiet and are totally fine with believers and their traditions.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this
TOJ—You sound too much like me. I’m starting to think the “liberals” here might be right. The world needs more unconditional love. We’ve got enough conditional love already. And too much hate.
What do you say?
By DebbieDoRight
December 17, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this
Here we go again, the same topic. Again. The same argument from Shaunti. Again. The same mistaken, way out of context statements. Again. Sigh………Is Shaunti bored with writing this column? If so, why not try spors? With all the stuff happening in Atlanta lately, that should keep her columns at least half way interesting.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this
Thanks again for everyone’s love and support here on the blog.
By lovelyliz
December 17, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Letter from Jesus about Christmas –
Dear Children, It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you’ve forgotten that I wasn’t actually born during this time of the year and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival. Although I do appreciate being remembered anytime.
How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don’t care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn’t allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn. If all My followers did that there wouldn’t be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.
Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.
If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it: 1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.
Visit someone in a nursing home. You don’t have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.
Instead of writing George complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don’t you write and tell him that you’ll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again.
Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can’t afford and they don’t need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.
Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.
Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don’t know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.
Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren’t allowed to wish you a “Merry Christmas” that doesn’t keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn’t make so much money on that day they’d close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families
If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary— especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.
Here’s a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no “Christmas” tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don’t know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.
Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don’t do things in secret that you wouldn’t do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.
Don’t forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I’ll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I’ll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember : I LOVE YOU, JESUS
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
trogladyke
I’m not a liberal, but a lot of liberals do celebrate Christmas, so I Your argument would be slightly more *convincing if you replaced the word “liberal” with “unbeliever.”
In the world outside of this forum, that is absolutely true. However on this forum, most liberals are unbelievers.
Halloween isn’t a religious holiday. That’s why it’s so fun.
So … you have no idea what you are celebrating. I see. It is the celebration of the dark side of religion. Astrology is also a religion.
What’s your point? Xtians make Halloween controversial, because they have no understanding of what it really is.
So what do you think it is?
Atheists aren’t spending billions of dollars they don’t have on presents no one needs.
You just really don’t get it, do you? Santa Clause is not religious. The Christmas tree is not religious. All the things that Christians love about Christmas is not the presents or the commercialization of it, it is the religious significance. If you take Christ out of Christmas like you are supporting, all you have left is the commercialization.
That may very well be so, but believers are the original sheep. So pot, meet kettle.
Who said that I was a believer? I get very upset when I see religious people being persecuted and I see it here, quite often.
ANY group who blindly follows dogma can be considered sheep. Religious believers are the most egregious.
You would think so. I saw a discussion started here several weeks ago about astrology: a religion, just a very old one. It was amazing to see all these people that are so quick to jump up against Christians that were all over the astrology discussion. Religion is all around us. EarthDay is a religion.
Got bumper stickers on your car? You are probably a religious zealot, wishing to spread your beliefs to others.
By lovelyliz
December 17, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this
Drive through the neighborhood of some of these neo-con, non-US Constitution reading, nuts and count the number of 10 Commandment monuments and nativity scene. Chances are you won’t find any.
Instead of the War on Christmas, these guys sound like they are fighting the war on the Constitution.
By lovelyliz
December 17, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this
Halloween isn’t a religious holiday.
Talk to the Catholic Church about that one.
By Monica
December 17, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas!
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this
Once again, Clark Howard is my man this year in supporting The Empty Stocking Fund. Though it is only a small gesture, when those kids get at least something, it helps send a message that at least someone cares about them.
If anyone has a few bucks to spare, please consider making one poor child’s Christmas a little less lonely.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this
I hear Xtians bemoaning this all the time. Are you saying that it hasn’t been overcommercialized?
Of course it has. Christ has been taken out, thanks to people like you. What do you think that leaves? It leaves commercialization.
No, secularists don’t celebrate it, so why would we want it to become anything?
Are you crazy? Half of the population of this country are considered progressives. Most of those want Christ out of Christmas. Are saying that close to half of America does not buy gifts? Better yet, are you giving or getting anything this year?
It can be the Most Religious Thing Ever. That’s fine with me. I don’t celebrate it as the birth of Christ, OR as a reason to overspend.
OK … So your holiday is the celebration of … give me a hint.
I am against Xtians bemoaning how “secularists” are ruining the holiday, when it is clearly being ruined by believers.
You are saying the same thing, but you are blaming it on the Christians. Nonsense.
The “war on Xmas” by “secularists” is a concoction, a figment.
Right. Even though you have openly been talking about that very thing for several posts now. Come on … think for yourself. Do you really believe that?
If anyone is waging a war on Xmas, it’s the believers.
That would be the people that you have been saying is angry for the over commercialization of Christmas. I see.
Wanna know what I want? Stop blaming nonbelievers for the troubles of the church.
The church isn’t at the malls. You are. You don’t go to church. How do you know what the troubles of the church are?
We atheists know we are in the minority, and most of us stay quiet and are totally fine with believers and their traditions.
Like you are staying quiet here. I totally see what you are saying.
By Nancy DuPree
December 17, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this
What is the matter with us? Christmas is a wonderful, warm holiday, full of joy and hope. Christians almost universally love Christmas. And we welcome anyone who wants to celebrate with us. What we resent are those who want to take it and change it and make it theirs and demand that we only celebrate their way (except maybe in the basement or the back room, away from the windows). It’s like going from “BC” to the utterly inane “BCE”—the years are still counted the same way; we just pretend that the count is not based on the birth of Jesus. But it’s still Christmas. It’s not some vague generic “Holiday.” If you want to celebrate, celebrate Christmas. And let those of us who want to celebrate, celebrate openly and wholeheartedly the birth of Christ. I can’t imagine why anyone’s feelings should be hurt if someone else celebrates their holidays, anyway. Who do they think they are?
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
I’m praying for you, TOJ. Open that tiny grinch heart up a little, buddy.
By Daedalus
December 17, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this
Hey Shaunti — are you using Rush Limbaugh’s fact-checker?
The federal government has very permissive rules allowing religious expression in the workplace. The rules were put in place during the Clinton administration and were kept in place by George W. Bush:
http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/New/html/19970819-3275.html
How about a little research before your next smear campaign?
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this
lovely liz
10 Commandment?
Missed it by a testament and about 2,000 years. This is supposed to be about the birth of Christ. I only put out my 10 commandments display on Make A Liberal Angry Day which is celebrated several times a year.
It amazes me that you can drive through a neighborhood and can tell that a family is a “neo=con” family just by seeing their Christmas decorations that strangely enough, doesn’t contain any religous symbology. Wow. You must be reeeeeally smart.
Do you work for the CIA?
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
The Greatest Gift
Judge not, yet ye be judged.
I appreciate the prayers. I just wonder who you are praying to.
By GOB
December 17, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this
Are you crazy? Half of the population of this country are considered progressives. Most of those want Christ out of Christmas. Are saying that close to half of America does not buy gifts? Better yet, are you giving or getting anything this year?
So your argument is that all “progressives” are also secularists? By that logic, half of the population doesnt believe in Christ, but we know that isnt true. One can easily be a progressive and still have religous faith. If that is the best you have to prove that there is a war on christmas, you need to keep looking.
An overwhelming majority of this country claim to to be christians. If they werent the ones driving the overcommercialization, it wouldnt be happening. There simply are not enough non-believers in this country to cause the problems you see with the christmas. Logistically, it couldnt happen.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
Judge not, yet ye be judged
Too bad there’s no TV broadcasts from heaven. I’m thinking my Judgement Day might make some interesting viewing. ; > }
How about you?
By Troglodyke
December 17, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this
Santa Clause is not religious.
Uh, duh. Do you think atheists are the only ones who take their kids to visit Santa? Xtians are the biggest believers/supporters of the Santa myth.
All the things that Christians love about Christmas is not the presents or the commercialization of it, it is the religious significance.
I disagree. I think most Xtians have forgotten the religious significance. I don’t believe that’s what they are honestly celebrating.
I saw a discussion started here several weeks ago about astrology: a religion, just a very old one. It was amazing to see all these people that are so quick to jump up against Christians that were all over the astrology discussion.
Maybe that’s because astrology, mythical as it is, doesn’t have millions of intolerant followers who think everyone is out to get them, and who want to subjugate their beliefs on others, like Christianity does.
It’s easy to “believe” in astrology, because astrology doesn’t seek to subjugate or condemn those who don’t believe in it.
Just so you know, I believe in live and let live. I don’t care what people believe, as long as their beliefs don’t restrict my rights or harm me or my family. I generally stay out of the “Xtian bashing,” because I am friends with Xtians, and they are decent people.
However, I do get riled up occasionally, and this “war on Xmas” topic is one of those times. Christianity is everywhere, it is the dominant religion, and a faction of its adherents DO want to restrict my rights, so I am not going to just allow that.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this
Well let me pass along the “Irish Prayer” for you then.
“May you enjoy 5 minutes in heaven before the Devil discovers you are dead.” ; > }
By Troglodyke
December 17, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this
An overwhelming majority of this country claim to to be christians. If they werent the ones driving the overcommercialization, it wouldnt be happening. There simply are not enough non-believers in this country to cause the problems you see with the christmas. Logistically, it couldnt happen.
Thanks, GOB. I wasn’t being very clear, obviously.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this
The Greatist Gift
How about you?
What. Are you 12 years old? If you have something to say to me, pretend to be an adult and say it. If you have a problem with something I have said, point out what it is and we will discuss it.
My judgment day is everyday. Why isn’t yours?
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this
It’s really all about toothpicks and telephone poles, TOJ. Somehow we all notice that splinter in our neighbor’s eye, yet fail to notice the plank in our own. All of us.
By chuck
December 17, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this
Whatta Load is right. There are many SECULAR Christmas songs in the play, but Shaunti’s assertion is correct. The lyrics to Silent Night WERE CHANGED to secularize them.
As for an “Attack on Christmas”, I think there is an organized attempt by the retail industry to avoid the use of the WORD Christmas, while still collecting huge profits in its celebration. I am seriously thinking about not celebrating Christmas next year in any way that involves retail stores. We’ll still decorate, but we won’t buy any new lights or ornaments. We will still exchange gifts, but only ones that we make ourselves that actually mean something to us and the receiver. Our biggest gift will be to Jesus. I think that if ALL Christians celebrated this way, retailers would all of a sudden want to remember the reason for the season. We may like it so much that we never go back to the “RETAIL” celebration.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this
I think most of Shaunti’s tirade is bogus. And TOJ, geez. He’s so spazzed he can’t make any sense. Talk about slobbering at the mouth!
By Watta Load
December 17, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
The Other Jack,
Listen here loser..for someone who spends all day..every day…blowing hot air on this blog, you aren’t in any position to talk about mush for brains.
I’m sure you find anything that contradicts Faux News as liberal propaganda.
If you can find some info that discredits my previous post then by all means feel free to do so..
I actually have work to do so I can’t stay here all day and read your drivel…I’ll check back later this week though.
By chuck
December 17, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this
It’s a way for the Religious Right to make money off the sheep,
What a stupid statement. How does ANYBODY make any money off of this issue. Just because an article or 2 appears in the paper, somehow people are going to start sending money to some televangelist? I’m glad conservatives aren’t as stupid as you think we are. I just wish liberals weren’t as GULLIBLE as WE KNOW they are.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
And special thanks to chuck as well for being that shining light of compassion that we all aspire to!
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
Uh, duh. Do you think atheists are the only ones who take their kids to visit Santa? Xtians are the biggest believers/supporters of the Santa myth.
No. Americans are the biggest believers/supporters of the Santa myth. Are the local weathermen on TV that claim to be getting updates on the progress of Santa being religious?
I think most Xtians have forgotten the religious significance. I don’t believe that’s what they are honestly celebrating.
LOL The arrogance of some people. How do you know what they are celebrating? And this is not Christian bashing? It is disturbing.
Please go back and read some history about this sort of religious persecution. I would suggest some German literature from the 1930s. Goebbels wrote the book on this kind of politically correct persecution.
It is not only politically correct to attack Christians, but also Jews. Go to Islamaphobia on Delphi and see how politically correct the liberal posters are about “Not really hating the Jewish people, just their country and government should be taken from them”.
Religious persecution is now politically correct … again. There are almost enough sheep to start the building of the ovens again. If you are young enough, you will probably see them. Christians are already being slaughtered in some countries.
Maybe that’s because astrology, mythical as it is, doesn’t have millions of intolerant followers who think everyone is out to get them, and who want to subjugate their beliefs on others, like Christianity does.
Really? The Green Movement sure does. But that’s OK, right? Again, your description of Christianity is disturbing. Please read some history.
It’s easy to “believe” in astrology, because astrology doesn’t seek to subjugate or condemn those who don’t believe in it.
When was the last time you were approached by a Christian and subjugated by them? But you certainly know the party line. Again, deeply disturbing.
I generally stay out of the “Xtian bashing,” because I am friends with Xtians, and they are decent people.
Again, like you are doing here. I see.
Christianity is everywhere, it is the dominant religion, and a faction of its adherents DO want to restrict my rights, so I am not going to just allow that.
Good for you. How about respecting the rights of Christians? Does that work for you, or is that just too politically incorrect? You have done nothing but grouped Christians all into one convenient group to be hated and persecuted. You have claimed to know what they are thinking and you claim to know their motivation.
It isn’t so disturbing that you think like that, but the disturbing thing is that there is a huge movement of people here and in the world that consider it appropriate and good to think like that.
And the craziest thing is that you think is all our imagination.
It is time for another religious slaughter. They happen about every 70 years because people die off that can recognize the warning signs. The last one started in 1939.
By The Greatest Gift
December 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
Did you like my poem, chuck? I wrote it especially for you, me, and TOJ.
At any rate, my time on the blog is almost to an end. I’m interviewing tomorrow with another DC, and hope to be back to work by Jan.
lozen—I’m going to miss you, sweetie.
By suzan
December 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
Liz, that was wonderful! Jesus Christ was a humble carpenter while on this earth. His time to be seen in full glory will be at his return. There is no need to argue about how to celbrate his birth or death. God the creator does not need mankind to defend him. It is us who need him. If Christ was persecuted do you not know that it will come to you as well. Welcome all to you and live according to the word of God. Before we Christians can take the spec out of our neighbors eye, we must first take the moat out of our own eye. Bless them that do evil to you. That is the Holy word of Christ.
By back from the past
December 17, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
I just wish liberals weren’t as GULLIBLE as WE KNOW they are
Hahahaha…such a funny statement from someone that actually believes the rot from www.answersingenesis.com…
remember Chuck’s GULLIBLE beliefs about Noah’s flood..the earth is only 6000 years old…etc. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel with some of you neocon idiots on here.
By Mike Ramsey
December 17, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
Ms Feldhahn, What planet have you been living on for the past ten years? Your statement is laughable. FOX news seems to be the only news organization that will report on the crimes of the so called politicaly correct left. For years now the conservatives have taken a back seat to the mindless liberals who think that everyone outside of the Christian faith is offended or insulted with the words Merry Christmas, the tree in the town square, or the Nativity in front of the court house. We have come to the brink on this. We give, in some schools today, Muslim children their prayer time to show we are PC, but we allow the ACLU to take the pledge out of the class room. We put up with department stores wanting to wish us Holiday or Seasons Greetings for a few years until the public shouted BOYCOTT! We no longer have children who can’t or won’t go to bed on the 24th because Santa is coming. The joy we felt for them will never be there. We have let the left destroy what was once a great time in this country. Hay rides on Halloween and costume contest at school. Thanksgiving ment family and friends getting together to enjoy the season. Now we have the left telling us it insults the American Indians. We have come a long way from what this country was founded on. The rights of each the pursuit of happiness, life and liberties. I do not understand the Jewish faith, the Cathalic faith, Lutheren or Episcopal faith but i do not try to banish their pratices during any holiday. Why is is the left wants to banish only mine? I am sorry Ms Feldhahn people like you are the problem not FOX News.
By GOB
December 17, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this
Chuck - I think the comment about “making money off of the sheep” was more about the media, particularly the right-leaning media, using it as a platform to attract viewers or readers. I have no doubt there are people who tune into O’Reilly and Hannity just to see what the latest “attack” on christmas is. I think that they play it up to up their ratings, and thus, make money off the sheep. I could be wrong, but that was the first thing that came into my head.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
I don’t think it is a war on Christmas per se, it’s just the fact that we don’t want to “offend” anyone. I think this is a nation founded on Christian beliefs. If a store advertises “holiday trees” instead of Christmas trees, I will buy from another store. The same goes with “Spring bunnies”. The consumer will decide with their wallets. The politicians should stay the hell out of it.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
Watta Load
If you can find some info that discredits my previous post then by all means feel free to do so..
What post would that be? There is no other post written by Watta Load.
Grow a brain.
By Linda
December 17, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
Bill O’Reilly’s “War on Christmas” is my kind of war. It exists only in his head, he’s publicized the heck out of it, and declared himself the winner. No one died, and the only hardship we endured was a lot of hot air. That’s my kind of “war.”
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
lozen
What have I written that you would like to discuss? Too much to think about?
When you calm down and gain control of your emotions, maybe you can contribute something.
Read the first few slobbering attack posts that were posted first thing this morning. But you say nothing about them. Talk about a sheep.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
“Come on people now. Smile on your brother, everybody get together, try to love on another right now.”
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this
GOB
I have no doubt there are people who tune into O’Reilly and Hannity just to see what the latest “attack” on christmas is.
So you can honestly go to the mall and still see a strong dominance of the religious symbology in Christmas? Is that what you are saying?
Christians want the traditions of a religious, non-commercial Holiday. Take Christ out of Christmas, and all you have left is the commercialization.
By GOB
December 17, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this
You have done nothing but grouped Christians all into one convenient group to be hated and persecuted. You have claimed to know what they are thinking and you claim to know their motivation.
And when we contrast that with your clearly rational and objective characterizations of “liberals” and “secularists” we see that you do believe that dumping masses of people into a group and continually denigrating them is something you would never take part in….oh, wait…
By Bruno
December 17, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this
Hey, Jack. I’m going to miss you too, buddy.
Beautiful reference to my favorite song by the Youngbloods. Have you heard their other big song called “Sunlight”?
TOJ, tell us more about your music career.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this
Linda
So you are saying that there is no war on Christmas. So there have been no lawsuits to have nativity scences taken from public squartes. So there have been no attempts at turning Christmas trees into Holiday trees. I see.
The phrase “War On Christmas” is overstated, that I agree. It is actually a war on Christians. Christmas is just collateral damage.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
Halloween is a pagan religious holiday, Samhain - the ending of the Celtic year and the beginning of the new year. This religious celebration goes far back in history before christianity existed. December 21 is Yule, a Celtic religious holiday that was celebrated a long, long time before christianity. Some people celebrate the Soltice on Dec. 22. Dec 5-12 was a celebration of Hanukkah. Dec. 20 is Eid-al-Adha, an Islamic holiday. Almost all religions celebrate at this time of year. Celebrate your holy days, whatever they are. But please realize there are many others celebrating also. Wishing a pagan a merry xmas is offensive to some pagans. Wishing a Jew a merry xmas is offensive to some jews. Wishing a Muslim a merry xmas is offensive to some Muslims. “Happy Holidays” covers it all and simply recognizes that not everyone is a xtian. The world changed, that’s all.
By TGG
December 17, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this
Love is but a song we sing
And fear’s the way we die
You can make the mouintains ring
Or make the angels cry……
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this
GOB
You are full of grand generalizations. You don’t like what I am saying, but you have nothing to counter, so you do this. No big surprise, but it is good that you understand your limitations.
Now, if there anything I have said that you would like to discuss, please let me know.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this
No, sorry TOJ. The first person I saw slobbering was you. There were about 4 or 5 responses to the writers before yours. They were not “slobbering” so i couldn’t tell who you were responding to. Maybe the one wit who made up the tongue-in-cheek news story????
GOB’s nailed you: By GOB December 17, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this “You have done nothing but grouped Christians all into one convenient group to be hated and persecuted. You have claimed to know what they are thinking and you claim to know their motivation.”
And when we contrast that with your clearly rational and objective characterizations of “liberals” and “secularists” we see that you do believe that dumping masses of people into a group and continually denigrating them is something you would never take part in….oh, wait…
By With One More Look At You
December 17, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this
With one more look at you
I could learn to tame the clouds
And let the sun shine through
Leave a troubled past
And I might start anew
I’ll solve the mysteries
If you’re the prize
Refresh these tired eyes
.
With one more look at you
I might overcome the anger
That I’ve come to know
Find a peace of mind
I lost so long ago
.
Your gentle touch has made me strong again……
By With One More Look At You
December 17, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this
It’s a small step forward for me, but my lady friend actually got me to put some “Solstice” lights in my front window. That’s the first time I decorated since getting divorced 16 years ago.
I gotta say one thing for my Spanish neighbors: They really know how to decorate for Christmas. Lot of beautiful displays in my neighborhood this year.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this
I’ll miss you too Pal. Best of luck.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
I have miles to go before I sleep.
I am going to leave everyone with a few words about history. Following is an excerpt from a speech made by Joseph Goebbels about morality. This was made in the third or forth year of the NAZI reign in Germany.
I am also giving the link to the website that contains all his speeches. A few years ago, I read the entire site, front to back. At the beginning, he sounded like Ronald Reagan. He and Hitler talked a lot about church and about Christianity.
But the more crazy they became, the more progressive they sounded. I wouldn’t expect anyone to believe me, so check it out yourself:
Certainly there is need for public regulation of the great moral foundations of our national life. However, some nonsense is also spreading that attempts to reach beyond that to establish a code for the purely personal conduct of individuals.
That leads eventually to a moralism that is everything other than National Socialist.
Peculiar people whose life is either behind them, or have no right to have one ahead of them, preach moralism in the name of our revolution. This moralism often has nothing in common with true morality. They proclaim ethical laws that might be appropriate for a nunnery, but are entirely out of place in a modern cultural state.
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb60.htm
By With One More Look At You
December 17, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this
You too, JokesOn.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
Oh, now I see. It was definitely to BREAKING NEWS. I missed the huge type.
It is no surprise that you can’t be civil and respectful. Why should he be your idea of civil and respectful? It’s a big joke to the segment of our population that thinks that someone pushed a demolition button and downed the WTC just so we could go to war. What does what he said have to do with the WTC? That sort of conspiracy is totally acceptable, but taking religion out of Christmas, . . Nah. It’s just the imagination of conservatives. Again, what the heck does one have to do with the other?
You can’t even hold back your slobbering insults long enough to give an opinion. Oh, but he was giving an opinion; that fundy religious types are doing themselves in and not the people of other religions or the people of no religion. It’s no surprise that you want anything that is dear to anyone who does not think like you to be abolished. He did not say that. Actually he made a lot of good points about practicing xtianity based on the teachings of jesus. You are vile and hateful and not having you celebrate the birth of Christ is no big lose to anyone. I thought he was pushing for true religion: love thy neighbor, do unto others, practice what you preach.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
Lozen
If you are so closed minded that you can’t see how that mock news story would be insulting and vile to people other than you, there is little we can discuss.
I’m glad you side with GOB. He had nothing to offer but an attempted insult, just like you.
Again, if there is anything you would like to discuss as an adult, let me know.
By Hans Christian Brando
December 17, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
The so-called War On Christmas is a jingle-bell crock, a red (and green) herring, Frosty the Straw Man. You’d think the pagans took December 25 away from the Christians instead of the other way around.
Nobody is being prevented from celebrating Christmas. If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus (even though it didn’t happen on December 25), who’s stopping you? The problem is, this is not a “Christian” country, despite a Christian majority. (Incidentally, this “we are the majority, so nobody else counts” attitude is an insult to all minorities.) The only “war” aspect of this situation is the “Christian” outrage over the simple and long-overdue acknowledgement that more than one holiday is observed in December. Ironically, with all their talk of Christmas being a religious holiday, they sound like a bunch of spoiled children threatening a tantrum if Santa doesn’t give them every single item on their gimme list. “Make a Liberal Angry Day”? What a wonderful expression of Christian fellowship and good will toward men. Calling for a boycott of any business that wishes its customers “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas”? Nice to know that not only does your faith bring out the best in you, your spiritual values are intact. (Funny, though: when the issue is the smoking ban, we’re told that businesses should be free to instill any policy they want to. Evidently, this does not extend to holiday greetings.) And doesn’t writing a letter as from Jesus, as lovelyliz did, smack a little of blasphemy?
Do you think the term “holiday tree” is silly? So do I. But guess what: this is a free country—you say eether, I say eyether—and people can call it a jack-o-lantern if they want to. Hey, some people think that saying that people who died “passed away” is pretty silly, too.
So take the Yule log off your shoulders. Tis the season to be jolly.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this
Iozen
Again, what the heck does one have to do with the other?
Conspiracies. They are both conspiracies. Secularists geneally are willing to believe some pretty crazy things, but are quick to condemn others for believing conspiracies.
I thought he was pushing for true religion: love thy neighbor, do unto others, practice what you preach.
Those are all Christian principles. So you are saying that only Christianity is the true religion? What is a true religion? Wasn’t EarthDay just one big tent meeting with the Reverand Al as the great Messiah? Isn’t that a true religion?
By Jack
December 17, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this
That’s right Brando, this is a free country. If a particular group wishes to boycott any store for any reason they can. I couldn’t care less what holiday anyone wishes to celebrate. I just don’t like it when my celebrations are being changed because it hurts some people’s feeelllings. Maybe you should pull that yule log out of your a$$.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
Hey Lozen. SMOOCH!
By Bruce
December 17, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this
I received the below in an email from a friend. If you read this blog long enough you will see that this is pretty close to be being accurate.
To My Democrat Friends:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2008, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. This is not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.
To My Republican Friends: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
By lovelyliz
December 17, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this
By The Other Jack
The irony is that so many people who are so passionate about their version of a Christian faith to the point that they want to fight a self created war on Christmas that doesn’t exist are rarely those who exhibit the displays of that belief.
Before you ask the government or some retailer to display your religious holiday beliefs why not do it at your own home? Instead of those lights, place a crèche in a place of prominence outside your house. If you want to see the 10 Commandments in public, place a monument in your own front yard. If every person who got upset over what they see as the taking the Christ out of Christmas or the taking God out of the public arena were to actually do this, there wouldn’t be enough displays available.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this
Hey Jack, you old conservative ; -). I don’t care how anyone else celebrates their holidaze either. But you remember this old song by Judy Collins:
Everything must change Nothing stays the same Everyone must change No one stays the same The young become the old And mysteries do unfold Cause that’s the way of time Nothing and no one goes unchanged
There are not many things in life You can be sure of Except rain comes from the clouds Sun lights up the sky And hummingbirds do fly Winter turns to spring And music And music Makes me cry.
A wounded heart will heal But never much too soon Yes Everything must change
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
Bruce
LOL!!
Perfect.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Lovelyliz
Things have changed a great deal over the past several years. Several progressives have admitted how stupid it is that you can’t even feel good about saying Merry Christmas, anymore.
This is not a minor thing that you blow off by trying to say that there has been no concentrated effort to change the holiday from a religous celebration into a secular celebration of the ipod and flat screen TVs.
So you are allowing me to decorate my own home. I might as well do it while I can. I’m sure eventually, that will insult someone and the ACLU will be after that right, also.
This has effected almost everyone and while many on here are totally against the commercialization of Christmas, please explain what you have left if you take Christ out of Christmas?
You may revel in the money, the mall, the gifts and the greed, I like the fact that it is the celebration of the birth of a person that many believe can save the world.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this
Wow. That brings back memories. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
By mr. b&n
December 17, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
As a retail worker, I can say that the only time I’m offended by “Merry Christmas” is when it’s spat at me from between the clenched jaws of a red-faced customer wearing a “Jesus is the Reason” pin who apparently decided that my “Have a great evening” was not season-appropriate enough for his or her tastes. More, among all of my friends - conservative, liberal and in-between - I can’t find one person who find being wished “Merry Christmas” offensive. Nor do any of these people include in their expanded circle of friends an example of this much-touted modern-day-Scrooge who some claim is so mortally offended by two simple words.
I suspect that if we were to ask those friends of friends about their own friends, and those friends about those friends, and on and on and on, that we would find the same. I equally suspect, that while our Christmas Curmudgeon would remain a faintly sinister urban legend dragged out to scare children before they go into Macy’s, we would find a whole parcel of individuals who profess to be offended by the equally genial and innocuous “Happy Holidays”. I wouldn’t even begin to imagine the ire and wrath with which these same folks would respond to “Happy Hannukkah”.
You know, last night I went to a caroling party - one that I’ve attended faithfully for years. As I drove down Ponce de Leon through that bluest-of-the-blue mecca known as Decatur, what did I see? Christmas lights - or Holiday lights, if you will - everywhere. On shops. On homes. Every streetlamp was bedecked with an enormous lighted Christmas wreath - even the ones surrounding the municipal courthouse. Christmas lights shone from everywhere…except, strangely enough…churches. Even Watershed, owned by that great and perfidious enemy of Christendom, America and the reproduction of the human race in general (a lesbian, people), was covered in huge green and red garlands with lights running all through them.
If Christmas is so joyously and widely celebrated in a region where a Republican is as rare as a Baptist in a liquor store, then one has to wonder about this whole War on Christmas. Doesn’t one?
By lozen
December 17, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
Yeah Bruce that’s a good one! An old boyfriend from way back in the 60’s sent it to me last Xmas and I thought it was very funny. It didn’t make me get all bent out of shape, foam at the mouth, and defend the “Democrats” I guess I just don’t identify that much with the “democrats.” The old boyfriend was a conservative rock musician who was pretending to be a hippie. Many people thought he was pretending to be a musician too ;-). Whatever, we’ve remained friends for over 40 years now.
By AllAboutME
December 17, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
Christmas memories: let us pause to remember a few years back when mega-churches in ATL closed down for christmas siting lack of interest/attendance by congregation members.
Ho ho ho
By lozen
December 17, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
Hey what happened to my post about how much I love Xmas???? used to hate Xmas when I was divorced and had kids. I was working full time, going to school, taking care of the kids, the house, the dog, the cats, the hampsters and guinea pigs and iguanas all by myself! It was just one more thing on top of all that. I hear many woman complain that although they love it, it’s just more work for them. Once the kids were grown I stopped celebrating Xmas for a while. I had seen it as just a commercial thing since I don’t celebrate baby jesus. But somewhere along the way I began to realize how much more there is to the season; I wanted to make it my own. I buy gifts. I put up lights. I decorate a Yule tree. I make a Yule log to burn every year. I dance at the solstice. I invite people over to enjoy mulled wine and egg nog and food. This weekend I went to a Holiday Party with my jewish, muslim, agnostic, atheist, pagan, christian neighbors. We had storytelling for the kids, singing, eating, drinking, etc. It was lovely. I love the lights, the food, the socializing, getting together with family. I love getting cards and letters and catching up with old friends. I love the cookies and the presents and the smiles on faces. I love the gifts and seeing my grandchildren’s faces when they open their gifts. I love being off from work, YAY. The holiday is about a lot more than buying, spending too much, or believing only one child born is precious. I’m not a Xtian and I love this time of year!
By Nikita
December 17, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
Man, this topic depresses me. No, I don’t think there’s a war on christmas. It is wrong, and there should be legal challenges to the use of public money for the purposes of celebrating any individual religion — but otherwise, if you want to celebrate christmas, then do it.
I’m agnostic. Up until recently I attended church several times per day on christmas eve and christmas, and participated in a religious ceremony in a private home. So I evidently don’t have a problem with helping other people celebrate their religion. What I have a problem with is other people forcing me to greet them using their religious nomenclature of choice or spend my tax money on exalting a god I don’t believe in.
And finally, what tires me of the so-called War on Christmas most is the transformation of a wish of positivity and joy to all people that has seemingly become a aggressively partisan expression of faith. It might as well be “Merry Christmas, Heathen Scum!” Thanks a lot, zealots, for ruining that aspect of the holiday for me.
By Heck no
December 17, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
There is no war on Christmas. Show horse fundamentalist Christians are always looking for a way to cry in public about some form of persecution. They are the most un-Christ-like people I have ever come across.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this
Mr b&n, bravo and very well written! Okay, my story about political correctness, etc. Last Xmas while shopping I got lunch at a chinese place in the mall. A man and his son are getting their food just as I walk up. The chinese woman behind the counter says, “Happy Holidays”. The man glares at her and snaps very loudly and nastily, “MERRY XMAS”!!!!! Talk about politically correct!
By chuck
December 17, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this
You’re…welcome?
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this
Heck no
They are the most un-Christ-like people I have ever come across.
So you knew Christ. And you are still alive. What is your secret for living over 2,000 years?
By chuck
December 17, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
OH! And Merry Christmas Heathen Scum!!!
Just kidding!
Merry Christmas Nikita!!!
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this
mr. b&n
As a retail worker, I can say that the only time I’m offended by “Merry Christmas” is when it’s spat at me from between the clenched jaws of a red-faced customer wearing a “Jesus is the Reason” pin
Yep, it’s those d*mned Christians that are ruining this holiday. Yes sir. Whining about the actual meaning of the holiday being replaced with the Toyotathons and the Best Buy end of the year sales.
A holiday about the birth of a savior of the most prevalent religion in our country. What a bunch of garbage. All of that should be thrown away and replaced with commercialism. All hail the video game and the flat screen TV.
You guys are sure noble and how dare those stupid Christians.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this
lozen
Yea. Today I went to a website and supported the original meaning of Christmas over the commercialism of Christmas. I was attacked over and over and called names for doing such.
Talk about political correctness!!
By mr. b&n
December 17, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this
One other observation before I go man the bookstore trenches.
A few days ago, a woman came up to me and slammed a box of Christmas cards down on the counter. She said “Do you know that out of ALL OF THOSE cards”, gesturing to a table heaped high, “that these are the ONLY cards that say Merry Christmas! Can you believe that!”
After she left, when there was a lull, I took a minute to look at that table. I looked through boxes with Nativity Scenes, images of the infant Christ, caroling angels, Shepherds looking in awe at bright stars, long-journeying wise men on camels, and cards simply emblazoned “Jesus” and “Christ”. What did I find? I found lots of cards that said “Happy Holidays”, but also an equal number of cards that said “Merry Christmas”.
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that the woman in question saw what she expected to see. She expected to walk into a bastion of retail excess and find that all mention of the religious aspect of Christmas had been excised. She went through literally hundreds of sacred and religious images in her search for a Christmas card, yet her only response was “This is the only card that says Merry Christmas”.
Take from that what you will. Enjoy your discussion - I’m off to wish people a good evening.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this
Chuck
DUH?!?!?!
There is no Christmas. It is Xmas and it is only observed by Xtians. Haven’t you been reading?
Merry Microsoft to you, man. And a happy end of the year clearance.
Al Gore bless us every one.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
mr. b&n
Merry Toyotathon to you.
By Hans Christian Brando
December 17, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
Well, I guess Jack’s told me off. That’s real Christmas spirit for you. Peace on Earth to you, too, Jack.
Now if you can control your temper and mind your manners, tell us how “your” celebrations are changed because other people don’t celebrate the way you evidently think they should. And also why anyone should care about your “feeelllings” when you obviously don’t care about theirs. As for boycotting stores, is that supposed to impress me or make me cry? Please do— you’ll free up parking for the rest of us.
By Jack
December 17, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this
I don’t think things should be changed for everyone to accomodate the few. I didn’t use the word boycott until you did. I meant if someone doesn’t agree with a store of manufacturer’s take on the holidays, they have the right to shop somewhere else. You are right about one thing, I dont give a flying rat’s behind about your feelings. You wanna cry over a post, go ahead. So take the log out and put it back in sideways.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this
Nikita
And finally, what tires me of the so-called War on Christmas most is the transformation of a wish of positivity and joy to all people that has seemingly become a aggressively partisan expression of faith. It might as well be “Merry Christmas, Heathen Scum!” Thanks a lot, zealots, for ruining that aspect of the holiday for me.
Christians didn’t start this. As far as I can see, they wanted it all to stay the same. So do I. The stories of goodness that a thousand movies have been made about is all about a religous base. Which is the better story: A Wonderful Life or Bad Santa?
A Wonderful Life is about an Angel from heaven. All the great old Christmas movies relate to the birth of Christ.
I ate lunch at a Sushi joint near here, today. I know the owner, who is Japanese. I wished him a Merry Christmas. A woman setting at the counter gasped and spun around to glare at me. The owner wished me Merry Christmas, as did most of his staff. Apparently, out of a full restaurant, only one person had a problem with my greeting, and I would be willing to bet that she wasn’t a Christian.
There are stupid people everywhere.
By NetBanker
December 17, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this
taking religion out of Christmas, . . Nah. It’s just the imagination of conservatives. But TOJ…isn’t it the darlings of the conservatives who are taking religion out of Christmas…those darlings being BUSINESSES?! But WAIT! Businesses don’t celebrate the religious holiday of Christmas…they celebrate the secular one of Santa and elves and flying reindeer and consumers spending excessive amounts of money to keep the economy churning along and the business’s stock prices high.
Seems to me that religion isn’t being forced out of christmas at all because I’m still seeing LOTS of nativity scenes at churches and advent wreath lightings and religious celebrations at churches all over Atlanta and the rest of the nation. I also don’t ever recall celebrating Santa or even talking about him in Church nor did we go shopping to buy religious presents to be exchanged in church. What is going on is that religious Christmas is being overwhelmed by secular Christmas…and wasn’t it W who told us to “go shopping” after 9/11? If 80$% of the nation is christian and they are the ones doing ALL that over spending then isn’t it the christians themselves that are voting with their dollars for secular christmas over religious christmas?
BTW…tradition and conservative are distinctly NOT about the same.
By GOB
December 17, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this
Christians want the traditions of a religious, non-commercial Holiday. Take Christ out of Christmas, and all you have left is the commercialization.
I like how you ignore the post that showed you that your assertion was weak at best and then complained that I didnt have anything to add. Well played…
If your qoute from aboove were even remotely true, the malls would be out business. If christians werent driving the commercialization of christmas, it wouldnt be thriving. Something like 80% of the US population claims to be christian. Are you arguing that those 80% are not the driving force behind the overcommercialization of christmas? Its the 20%, many of whome dont actually celebrate christmas?
If those damn hindu werent going to Best Buy so much for their christmas gifts, we would all be fine…
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this
Netbaker
So you voluntarily see the problem.
No one likes the commercialization of Christmas, but if you take the religous aspect of the holiday away, what do you have left, but the complete commercialization of Christmas?
There are only two aspects of the holiday: religous and commercial. You can claim that the true spirit of the season is about goodness and mercy and family and giving, but that all comes from the religous aspect of the season.
Some one else tried to blame the over commercialization of Christmas on Christians. They didn’t do a very good job of progressing that lie, either.
like I said, there are only two aspects of the holiday. Christians do celebrate the secular way too much. But that’s ALL non-Christians celebrate.
By lovelyliz
December 17, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this
Can anyone explain to me what is about about chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys that is Christian?
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this
GOB
I like how you ignore the post that showed you that your assertion was weak at best and then complained that I didnt have anything to add. Well played…
I just read through the day’s posts again. I didn’t even see where you referred to it. If you believe there is anything left but commercialization after religion is taken out of the holiday, please explian.
Are you getting anyone Christmas gifts this year? Are you expecting any? Christians have a habit of going too secular at Christmas. But most do celebrate the holiday in the spirit of the original idea of the Holiday. My family is very religous during the Holiday and I will be either in a church or in a local “rescue mission” the entire time I am home for the holidays.
The religous aspect is still very important to me.
But non religous people spend at least as much money on gifts. But for some reason, they want ONLY the commercialism of the holiday to be celebrated.
Oh sure, we will be allowed to celebrate it if we hide behind our doors and keep it out of the public square.
Gosh. We really appreciate your allowing us to do that.
Merry Toytotathon to you, man. And a happy end of the year sale.
Gore bless us every one.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this
lovelyliz
Can anyone explain to me what is about about chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys that is Christian?
You seem confused. What is Christian is the birth of Christ and the celebration of that birth.
What is secular is chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys. Christians want more religous and less secular.
You seem to want more secular (chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys) and no religous.
easy to remember: Christiians: Birth of Christ
Secular: chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys.
All cleared up, now?
By lozen
December 17, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this
So you are allowing me to decorate my own home. I might as well do it while I can. I’m sure eventually, that will insult someone and the ACLU will be after that right, also. Ridiculous.
By The Other Jack
December 17, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this
lozen
Rediculas
Are you old enough to remember thirty years ago? How rediculas would it have been for someone to say that Merry Christmas would become offensive.
Never think anything can’t happen.
A beautiful church up the street from my house gave up putting out a Nativity scene four years ago. The last year vandals burned it to the ground, it almost burned down the church, so they gave up their public display on their own property.
fascism is alive and well.
By chuck
December 17, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this
De-Lovely,
Nobody from the Christian side of this issue has said that. The POINT is that this HOLIDAY would not be celebrated if it weren’t for the birth of Christ. These retailers have fed from the trough (manger) for all of these years and now that don’t want to acknowledge that what we are celebrating is not just any holiday but CHRISTMAS. It irks us a little bit when they make a concerted effort to SPECIFICALLY TELL EMPLOYEES THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GREET CUSTOMERS WITH A “MERRY CHRISTMAS”. I know of at least 2 Christians working at Target that were disciplined for uttering those dangerous, subversive words. I guess it’s the new McCarthyism in retail. Please feel free to “name names”.
By NetBanker
December 17, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this
So you voluntarily see the problem what does that mean?
like I said, there are only two aspects of the holiday. Christians do celebrate the secular way too much. But that’s ALL non-Christians celebrate. How do you know that non-Christians are celebrating anything during the season or even joining the spending orgy that is going on? Why would one expect non-Christians to celebrate anything other than secular christmas?
I identify as a Christian, know the entire religious background, and my family dropped out of the commercialized Christmas years ago. Oh sure, we exchange gifts but we impose a spending limit and keep gift giving reasonable. As GOB keeps pointing out if 80% of the U.S. population identifies as christian that means that only 20% is non-christian. It’s just not possible that that 20% is having any real effect on the focus of Christmas given that they are either of another religion or not religious at all.
Oh sure, we will be allowed to celebrate it if we hide behind our doors and keep it out of the public square. What are you babbling about with the hiding and being allowed? Has anyone EVER given you some direct order to stop celebrating in your own way with your own religion? That’s great that the religious aspect is very important to you, but do you really believe that Santa or Cinter Claus or whatever his name is from the various groups that have such a figure doesn’t also deliver a least a slightly redeeming message (Only the GOOD boys and girls receive a gift) Don’t many religious parents also use Santa as a motivator for good behavior?
By Nikita
December 17, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this
Merry Christmas to you all.
Or as we call it at my house, Merry ChristmaHannuKwanzakaa!
And other Jack, you MUST be kidding me. I promise you it’s self-identified christians who send me emails about their militant campaign not to wish anyone anything other than a Merry Christmas. Turning it into a militant political move instead of a simple wish that we all enjoy our holiday and celebrate it as we wish. Which, by the way, is all I wish for you guys.
By lozen
December 17, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this
TOJ, you choose to ignore that many things are celebrated that are neither religious nor commercial: being with friends and family, good food, music, dancing, free time. What do you think Jewish people have been doing all these years while their religion was ignored and people wished them a merry xmas? Don’t forget now, jesus never celebrated Christmas; he only celebrated Hanukkah. I’m sure he would not approve of Christmas. He was rather ascetic, not to mention Jewish.
By hipnoj
December 17, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this
http://index1.dabiwa.com >large breasted swim suit
By korent
December 18, 2007 7:57 AM | Link to this
http://index1.lyvoqy.com >lori hodgen assist to sell
By robert brooks
December 18, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this
The public schools should get out of the business of religion all together. No one qualifies to teach or even discuss the subject. Many of those in theological schools falls far short of the wisdom to do so.
Christmas is not a Bible subject and it should be left in its’ context of secular entertainment. All the folks that are all wrapped up in the discussion has no idea what they are talking about. rb
By chuck
December 18, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this
When you learn “subject-verb agreement” Mr. Brooks, come back and talk to me about “qualifications”.
By lovelyliz
December 18, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this
Personally, I don’t look for my moral justification from IKEA, Target or the Pottery Barn.
If someone wants to wish me a Happy Holidays because they want to include Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Yule, the Winter Solstice, etc. or simply to include New Years and the Epiphany, I for one will take no offense where the is none.
By Hans Christian Brando
December 18, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this
More holiday warmth and cheer from our buddy Jack: I don’t think things should be changed for everyone to accomodate the few. It’s terrible to have to share the world, isn’t it, Jack? All minorities should just shut up and stay in the back of the bus where they belong, right? (Incidentally, learn how to spell: accommodate has two m’s in it.)
I didn’t use the word boycott until you did. I meant if someone doesn’t agree with a store of [sic] manufacturer’s take on the holidays, they have the right to shop somewhere else. Yes, and that’s called boycotting, sweetheart.
You are right about one thing, I dont [sic] give a flying rat’s behind about your feelings. You wanna cry over a post, go ahead. So take the log out and put it back in sideways. Thanks, but the only thing likely to bring on the tears is your adolescent truculence—and they’ll be tears of laughter. As for the log, sorry, but I have other plans.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this
Netbaker
How do you know that non-Christians are celebrating anything during the season or even joining the spending orgy that is going on? Why would one expect non-Christians to celebrate anything other than secular christmas?
Because I know many, many non-Christians and so do you and yes, they all celebrate Christmas.
It’s just not possible that that 20% is having any real effect on the focus of Christmas given that they are either of another religion or not religious at all.
Your family did what Christians should do, walk away from the secular aspect. Enjoy it while you can. It will come to an end.
The logic that only Christians shop is nonsense.
Has anyone EVER given you some direct order to stop celebrating in your own way with your own religion?
Not me personally, but the church up the street cannot put out a Nativity scene after the last year vandals burned it to the ground. Funny, they never touched any of the Halloween decorations.
If you don’t understand that worshiping in your own home is the next target in the sites of the anti-Christians, you aren’t paying attention. Did they back down when Prayer was taken out of school? Have they ever stopped? Will they ever stop?
When will they be satisfied and stop harassing Christians. Tell me.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this
Nikita
And other Jack, you MUST be kidding me. I promise you it’s self-identified christians who send me emails about their militant campaign not to wish anyone anything other than a Merry Christmas.
Isn’t it absolutely ridicules that they felt they were forced to do that?
But according to almost everyone on here, there is no war on Christmas.
Your friends feel it is important enough to become militant, but there is no war on Christmas.
Right.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this
Iozen
TOJ, you choose to ignore that many things are celebrated that are neither religious nor commercial: being with friends and family, good food, music, dancing, free time.
Yes. We call that the weekends. But when you associate that with a Holiday, a good Holiday would be a holiday where what is celebrated … Frosty the Snowman?
What do you think Jewish people have been doing all these years while their religion was ignored and people wished them a merry xmas?
Hanukah. And I would fight to my death for their right to celebrate that Holiday publicly or privately. Too bad that sentiment is lost when it comes to protecting the rights of Christians.
Don’t forget now, jesus never celebrated Christmas;
So Jesus never celebrated his birthday? How do you know? he only celebrated Hanukkah.
I’m sure he would not approve of Christmas. He was rather ascetic, not to mention Jewish.
You are sure of that, Huh? Jesus would not approve of a Holiday where his birth is celebrated aand his teachings are resd?
How far are you willing to reach in order to discredit Christmas?
So far you KNOW that Jesus never celebrated his birthday AND that he would never approve of Christmas. Any association with the anti-Christ, Are you now going to tell me that Al Gore wouldn’t approve. So where do you go now?
By Linda
December 18, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this
To “The other Jack”:
There is no war on Christians, either. I go to church every Sunday (sometimes on Wednesday, too) and guess what? I’ve never been stopped from doing so by armed guards. Along the way to my church, I pass lots of other churches and of various denominations, and the parking lots are FULL. People are going to church and no one is stopping them.
There is no war on Christianity, not in this country.
By Jack
December 18, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this
Mr/Ms Brando read more into my post than was meant. Sorry for the vitrol yesterday. I’ll admit I’m an old opinionated SOB. I don’t like words put into my mouth or taken out of context. I believe in equal rights but not political correctness. I do work and do not have the luxury of proofreading all of my posts. I am a Christian but I never push my religious beliefs on anyone but my children. Have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this
robert brooks
The public schools should get out of the business of religion all together. No one qualifies to teach or even discuss the subject. Many of those in theological schools falls far short of the wisdom to do so.
They already did that. It was the late 60s. That was when we still had the number one education system in the world.
Now we are almost up to the standards of Jamaica, a third world country. Our schools are spending more money on a hallway police presence and metal detectors than books. Teachers are daily threatened by their students and several have ben shot and/or killed by their students.
So how is that “religion out of the schools” thing working out for you? Does it bother you that we are still almost as good as Jamaica or should we be even worse?
How do you feel about teachers that insist on bullet proof vests?
Damn. Sure glad we got all that nasty religion out of our schools.
By Randy
December 18, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
The last two weeks(at least)the topic has to deal with Christianity. People when making a statement on Christianity go with what is in their hearts, those of us who know Jesus, know that the feeling is real and we defend that knowledge and that relationship. Those that don’t know Christ, can’t relate to that spirit or relationship, so they defend what is in their hearts. Is Christmas being attacked, YES, but only by a small percentage of people who don’t understand and it seems less prevelant this year than in the past few years(Christians have finally had to stand up for their beliefs, in this country). For us Christians, we must be patient, one of my friends prayed for one of her friends for 20+ years and her friend finally “GOT IT” and received Jesus as her lord and savior. Jesus wants free will, so let’s be tolerant of those who don’t understand and hopefully one day they will be blessed with that relationship. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this
robert brooks
Christmas is not a Bible subject and it should be left in its’ context of secular entertainment.
Now you are embarrassing yourself. The birth of Christ is never mentioned in the Bible?
Pick up a book, I would suggest the bible, and start reading.
By ga_tech_92
December 18, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this
This says it all…
Shayk Ibrahim Mogra, a Bristish Muslim leader, answered best with, “To suggest celebrating Christmas and having decorations offends Muslims is absurd. Why should Christmas not be celebrated openly and wholeheartedly in our country when a vast majority of people are Christians?”
Why indeed…socialism is killing the USA…
By lovelyliz
December 18, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this
Now you are embarrassing yourself. The birth of Christ is never mentioned in the Bible?
Christ was not born on December 25
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this
Linda
There is no war on Christians, either. I go to church every Sunday (sometimes on Wednesday, too) and guess what? I’ve never been stopped from doing so by armed guards.
Not yet. But after they get all they want. After every single person is stopped from saying Merry Christmas, after every single mention of God is taken out of the public arena, do you think they will stop? Do you really believe that?
There is no war on Christianity, not in this country.
Not in this country. LOL! Christians are being slaughtered in several other countries. But you don’t think it could happen here. Good for you. I hope you are right in that the anti-Christian crowd will grow a brain and realize that anti-Christians is just as dangerous as anti-Semitism.
I don’t see them getting any smarter and I sure don’t see them backing down, even after they get what they want.
Do you?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this
lovelyliz
Christ was not born on December 25
Well hell. Let’s just throw the whole thing out.
Merry Toyatothon. Happy end of the year clearance to you.
Gore bless us every one.
By B
December 18, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
The old boyfriend was a conservative rock musician pretending to be a hippie
Shhhhhh. Don’t tell anyone, lozen! ; > }
“Just one more cynical ex-hippie now working for the establishment.”
By GOB
December 18, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this
Because I know many, many non-Christians and so do you and yes, they all celebrate Christmas.
My muslim friend will be very interested to find out that he does, in fact, celebrate christmas. That will make his day for sure.
The logic that only Christians shop is nonsense.
Has anyone actually made that claim? I have pointed out several times now that you cant only blame non-christians for the commercialization of christmas because they only make up around 20% of the overall population. There is no question that the christian population is driving the spending spree we see every year in December.
You’ve ignored this point completely so far only to go off on non-christians for trying to take christmas away by shopping.
By GOB
December 18, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this
Not yet. But after they get all they want. After every single person is stopped from saying Merry Christmas, after every single mention of God is taken out of the public arena, do you think they will stop? Do you really believe that?
Do you really believe that?? That the governement is going to forcibly stop every single person from saying merry christmas? Really?
By lovelyliz
December 18, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
Why throw it out?
Why don’t we Christians recognize that we borrowed from other faiths in order to celebrate the birth of Christ at the same time many of them honor their beliefs?
By B
December 18, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
Oh sure, we exchange gifts, but impose a spending limit
Hopefully your spending limit is high enough to cover the cost of a few boxes of fruit from Harry and David’s, NetB. That’s always my favorite gift to receive. My least favorite would be some type of knick-knack.
Out of curiosity, will anyone publicly admit to “re-gifting”—i.e. the practice of giving a gift you received to someone else next year? ; > }
By B
December 18, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
Don’t many religious parents use Santa Claus as a motivator
I would consider that to be an application of conditional love, and perhaps not a very kind one.
a slightly redeeming message (only GOOD boys and girls receive gifts)
That’s why I support The Empty Stocking Fund and Toys For Tots even though I’m not so much into the commercial aspects of Xmas. When you grow up in the poorest family in town and don’t receive much at Xmas, it makes a child doubt whether they are worthy or not.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
GOB
My muslim friend will be very interested to find out that he does, in fact, celebrate christmas. That will make his day for sure.
I don’t know your Muslim friend. My Muslim friends celebrates Christmas in that they exchange presents.
Has anyone actually made that claim? I have pointed out several times now that you cant only blame non-christians for the commercialization of christmas because they only make up around 20% of the overall population. There is no question that the christian population is driving the spending spree we see every year in December.
And I have repeatedly said that yes, they do celebrate the secular side of Christmas, but they also celebrate the ORIGINAL meaning of the holiday. You and others seem to think that if they exchange gifts, they have no right to celebrate the religious side. Is that what you are saying?
You’ve ignored this point completely so far only to go off on non-christians for trying to take christmas away by shopping.
I haven’t ignored anything. I have answered every time you and anyone else has mentioned it. I just didn’t answer the way you wanted me to answer.
By B
December 18, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this
I’m sure He would not approve of Christmas
Excellent point/question, lozen. None of the folks I know whom I consider to be true Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses) celebrate Christmas because they feel it cheapens their faith.
By B
December 18, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
It’s a war on Christians
You know, TOJ, if you were really as honest and objective as you believe you are, you would recognize that the “War on Christianity” pales in comparison to the violence and horrors that have been perpetuated by people claiming to be Christians throughout history. Ever hear of the Crusades?? How about the continued subjugation of women by so-called Christians?? What say you??
By Linda
December 18, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
To “The other Jack”
I hate to break it to you, but there just aren’t any “anti-Christian” groups ready to shoot you for going to church. I know you want to feel persecuted, but you’re not, and you never will be in the United States of America.
How do I know? Because I’m a Christian, and I also belong to several groups that would probably be on your “anti-Christian” list, just because we want to make sure we keep a separation of church and state in our country.
I don’t wear political pins to church, and I don’t expect to see religious displays on government property. If you think church and state should not be separated, which denomination of the Christian faith do you want as the official government church? The Catholic Church? The United Methodists? The Church of Christ? This is why we have a separation, because we have many beliefs, even within Christianity. Some Christians don’t even like Christmas displays, because of the pagan origins of the Christmas tree. That’s one reason we don’t want religious displays on public property.
We have plenty of Christmas displays on the front lawns of our churches and on our front lawns. The right to put displays like that on private property is protected under the same laws that separate the church from the State. I can have a Christmas display on my front lawn, and no one can complain because it’s my private property, and the state can’t tell me to take it down.
If you want to be persecuted for your faith, go witness in China or the Middle East, then come back here and tell us about it. Maybe after that experience, you would appreciate the freedom you have here.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this
GOB
GOB
Do you really believe that?? That the governement is going to forcibly stop every single person from saying merry christmas? Really?
I have lived many years. i could not have ever imagined that the morning prayer be taken out of school. And then the Pledge of Allegiance. I also couldn’t imagine our schools graduating people that can’t form a sentence. Welcome to the secular world.
Yesterday I posted a quote from Joseph Goebbels that sounds like it could have easily been said by many of the progressives that visit this site. This speech was taken from the mid-1930s before the Germans started building the ovens.
No one said a word about it. I’m sure that no one went to the site to see how “progressive” Mr. Goebbels started to sound, the closer time took him to the crimes of the third Reich. As the NAZIs started killing Jews by the millions, Goebbels speeches went to the side of the occult, often going after any moralist teachers as enemies of the state.
I study history. I have noticed that there are always people who will bury their head in the sand while incrementalism is happening all around them and the next thing you know, they are the ones that are being herded onto trains.
Call me paranoid. I don’t care. I don’t see anyone that is taking away the rights of Christians backing down. I see them getting more and more aggressive while so many claim it isn’t even happening. If you understand history, you would know that this is not the first time this has happened, and it never ends well.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this
they also celebrate the ORIGINAL meaning of the holiday
Since you apparently are a scholar of Christian History, TOJ, would you care to explain the meaning of the word “ORIGINAL”?
ORIGINAL to me would suggest that perhaps Christ, some of the original disciples, or even perhaps some of the earliest Christians celebrated “Christmas”. My reading of Christian History doesn’t reveal any such endorsement. In fact, if you read the Bible closely, there is a prohibition of adding “new” holidays through the whim of the people. Only Passover is a recognized religious holiday in the Bible. Hannukah is mentioned no where.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this
B
You know, TOJ, if you were really as honest and objective as you believe you are, you would recognize that the “War on Christianity” pales in comparison to the violence and horrors that have been perpetuated by people claiming to be Christians throughout history.
I say that this is the same sort of nonsense that was being said about Jews in Germany in the 1930s. Again, I refer you to the post I made by Goebbels. If you have the courage, follow the link and see what happened the last time such “progressive” ideas were openly discussed.
Every religion, every race, every creed can trace their history to some form of violent actions.
People in Norway were Vikings, the most brutal and barbaric group of people to ever gang rape a settlement. Ghangus Khan was a Buddist. The Carrib Indians wiped the Arowacs off the face of the earth. The Carribs settled in Central America and many of their descendants are sneaking into this country to pick our beans.
The Apachi Indians were known for their special way of torturing their enemies.
But you are worried about what the Christians did in 1200 AD. And have no problem with thinking that way.
Disturbing.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
TOJ—Let me break it down for you, scientifically. In life, there are many unanswerable questions. How did life begin? What happens when we die? Why do some folks seem “lucky” and others “unlucky”? Etc, etc. Because these questions have no answer, and many humans don’t like to live with uncertainty, religion was invented by men (and women) to fill the gaps, so to speak. As long as everyone recognizes the true place of religion in society (i.e. the use of myth to answer unanswerable question), I think we could all probably get along. Unfortunately, the world is full of low-lifes like chuck who can’t see beyond their own arrogance long enough to recognize that the Bible is an old book full of myths, many of which were stolen directly from other pre-existing myths like Zorasterism.
I’m not saying that religion has no place, BTW. It fills a need in human psychology. The problems only begin when geniuses like chuck ae unable to separate fact from fiction.
By Monica
December 18, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
I googled “history of Christmas” and found this link from The History Channel. Pretty interesting reading. I learned some things that I did not know, though I did know that Jesus probably was not born in December. I had thought that it was in September, but the website above states that he was more likely born in the spring.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
Linda
Good for you.
I feel differently about it and just wrote two other posts explaining why I feel that way. Read to post to GOB
By lozen
December 18, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
Well, what a terrified man you are TOJ. You really are hysterical on this topic and you keep twisting what other people say when they’re talking about the public sphere like schools and government buildings into somebody wanting to take away your right to worship as you please. You are on that Martyr soapbox and you will stay there and repeat the same stuff over and over. (And how you love to make fun of others! You aren’t the only one, of course, but that’s all you do all the time.) No matter how many other christians say, “No, nobody is trying to take away our religious freedom,” you will not hear them. There are those on this blog who would fight to the death if someone tried to force you to stop practicing your faith in your way in your home or your church. But the public arena of schools and gov’t is a totally different thing from your home, your church and your freedom of religion. You cannot grasp the arrogance of insisting that everybody has to say “merry xmas” to jews, muslims, buddhists, pagans, and atheists? Put the 10 commandments on your lawn; nobody cares. Put a creche or whatever on your church yard. But don’t spend my atheist tax dollars to put things that mean nothing to me on the courthouse lawn! It’s that simple. You can practice any religious rite in your church and your home but not in the public school classroom. Some of us are trying to discuss the separation of church and state but you just have to see yourself as the threatened martyr. Please. It’s all in your mind.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
B
Got it.
No Christmas.
Should have never been introduced.
All Chistains are actually sinning when the celebrate Chistmas
And there is no war on Christmas.
Got it.
Anything else?
Merry Toyotathon and a very happy end of the year clearance to you.
Gore bless us every one.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this
Hey, Monica! Did you see Beowulf yet? My lady friend said that all her friends that saw it didn’t like it much, and greatly preferred The Golden Compass, “subversive messages” and all.
By GOB
December 18, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
You and others seem to think that if they exchange gifts, they have no right to celebrate the religious side. Is that what you are saying?
Not at all. I am simply saying that is disingenuous at best to complain about the secularists and non-christians taking away the meaning of christmas by commercializing it when it is in fact the christians that are driving the commercialization.
I honestly dont give a crap how anyone celebrates christmas. Buy as much as you want, spend all day in church, or anything else you want to do is cool with me. But to complain that there is a war on christmas just makes you sound stupid.
i could not have ever imagined that the morning prayer be taken out of school. And then the Pledge of Allegiance.
Could you imagine that there was actually a push to re-establish prayer in school to the point that a moment of silence was decided as a compromise? Every single day begins with a “moment of silent reflection” and the pledge of allegiance.
Do you believe that the state should force the schools to lead a christian prayer each morning? If so, you better hope that christianity never becomes second, or your grandkids might be praying to mecca fives times a day at school.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
Iozen
Well, what a terrified man you are TOJ.
Thats as far as I got. If all you can come up with is just another adolescent string of insults, you are obviously just not smart enough to carry on an adult conversation.
No one is terrified of anything. I, unlike you, am aware of the possibilities. you aren’t: obviously a product of our secular educational system.
Merry Christmas to you.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
lozen—So sorry again for the crude talk here on W2W this past year. I was acting out of anger, which is not a good place to be coming from. In the “real” world, I’m actually kind of a prude, and rarely use any type of profanity, let alone crude sexual humor. Somehow I let the “anonymity” of the blog get the better of me.
It would mean a lot to me if you would consider forgiving me.
By oOo
December 18, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
Is it just me, or is this “Other Jack” comletely off his rocker?
By B
December 18, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
All Christians are sinning when they celebrate Chistmas
Well, technically yes, if you go by a strict reading and interpretation of the Bible.
The only “defense” of Christmas can be found in Galations, in which we are instructed not to give people a hard time about their methods of celebrating the Sabbath. And perhaps under the “New Covenenant” one could argue that even the Sabbath requirements are not mandatory.
Out of curiosity, have you ever read the Bible cover-to-cover, or are you just going by second-hand accounts? Frankly, you don’t seem to know much of what is actually written in the Bible.
By Archie
December 18, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
There is no war on Christmas. As I type this I am listening to a beautiful Christmas tune performed by Toni Braxton and this entire month I have been able to listen to beautiful Christmas music and hear about Christmas programs,etc. Frankly I both sides of this debate are taking the extremes to generate acrimony because the majority of people that I know get to celebrate Christmas and sing songs,etc the way they want to and people of other religions participate in ways that don’t violate their personal religious rules because at work there was a Muslim woman that brought in a dish for the office christmas party. The Jehovah Witness person would not participate in any way at all but there was no pressure on her to participate so just based on pure observation there’s no war on Christmas. There are some atheist extremists that act as if they are so offended but they are countered by extremists on the christian that want ram some religious ideas down their throats but the majority of people are just living and letting other people live.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this
B
Unfortunately, the world is full of low-lifes like chuck who can’t see beyond their own arrogance long enough to recognize that the Bible is an old book full of myths, many of which were stolen directly from other pre-existing myths like Zorasterism.
So chuck is a low life for having a religous base to his life. Chuck goes with his church to eastern Europe without pay to help people there improve their life. But to you he is a low life.
But this “war on Christians” is all my imagination.
I see.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this
See you all in a little while, got to go for my interview. I already told the guy on the phone that I’m only interested in working with a partner who truly cares about his clients. No insurance hos for me.
By Linda
December 18, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this
Hi, Monica,
You’re right, that we don’t know exactly when Jesus was born. It was probably in the Spring, but early Christians picked December 25 so they could celebrate out in the open on an already-established pagan holiday without attracting too much notice.
Back in those days, Christians actually WERE persecuted, and had to worship & celebrate in secret (unlike today, where we can build huge churches, advertise in the newspaper, show off our choirs on TV, and go to church any time we want without being persecuted). Easter and Christmas were coordinated with the pagan calendar, so as not to arouse suspicion.
Throughout the centuries, nothing has ever stopped Christians from worshipping.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
oOo—Please think a kind thought for TOJ. In his posts, I see my own anger at the world. None of us is better than anyone else, ok? We’re all sinners.
By B
December 18, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
chuck is a lowlife, TOJ, because he uses his religion (at least here on the blog) to make others feel bad about themselves, rather than providing an uplifting example to follow.
As for his “mission” trips, it sounds to me like a good cover to take a nice vacation on someone else’s dime, that’s all.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this
B
Not at all. I am simply saying that is disingenuous at best to complain about the secularists and non-christians taking away the meaning of christmas by commercializing it when it is in fact the christians that are driving the commercialization.
So … what do you want me to say? Yes, taking religion out of Chistmas is the only way we can all get along so LET’S DO IT!!
No one has answered this question. If you take religion out of Christmas, what is left? Everything good, being with family, wanting to help the less fortunate: all came from the religious aspects of the holiday.
I honestly dont give a crap how anyone celebrates christmas. Buy as much as you want, spend all day in church, or anything else you want to do is cool with me. But to complain that there is a war on christmas just makes you sound stupid.
The fact that I sound stupid to the person who has written your last several posts could not be a bigger compliment.
Could you imagine that there was actually a push to re-establish prayer in school to the point that a moment of silence was decided as a compromise? Every single day begins with a “moment of silent reflection” and the pledge of allegiance.
No. Incrementalism goes in one direction. We will never have that back. But then again, that must sound really stupid to you.
Do you believe that the state should force the schools to lead a christian prayer each morning? If so, you better hope that christianity never becomes second, or your grandkids might be praying to mecca fives times a day at school.
What are you talking about? There have been several lawsuits that have won the rights of Muslim children to pray so many time a day in their schools, something that would never be granted to Christians. But then, this is all my imagination, right?
By Scalia
December 18, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
I don’t understand why people are so thin-skinned that they get angry when somebody says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. I think that the collective word works out well for all of the holidays that are celebrated this time of the year.
To irk people, I deliberately say: “Happy Kwanzaa!” I love the response that I get. Good times.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
B
Please think a kind thought for TOJ. In his posts, I see my own anger at the world. None of us is better than anyone else, ok? We’re all sinners.
It didn’t take long until you resorted to this crap.
So chuck makes you feel bad about yourself? Sounds like a personal problem. Chuck is a stranger to you, but you allow him to make you feel bad about yourself. I’ll bet you are the originator of some unreal road rage.
You do everything you can to make anyone you debate feel bad about themselves. If it is religion you need to use, no problem, if it is politics, no problem. If it is resorting to just saying someone sounds stupid, no problem.
At least chuck is consistent. If he is a lowlife, what are you?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this
Scalia
I don’t see anyone getting angry at Happy Holidays. I guess it happens, probably about as much as the person saying Happy Holidays getting angry at the return greeting of Merry Christmas.
I hate that any of this has become controversial.
By JokesOn
December 18, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
Hey Dog,
Merry Christmas to you too.
It is futile to argue with the half-wits. They have a two-fold purpose, to build up any and all info for their side (no matter how insane) and to ignore reasonable rebuttals.
Look at the freak out sessions TOJ and Chuck have each week. Children need to be told what to do until they grow up and can decide for themselves.
They do the same thing each week: - freak out - misrepresent others remarks - freak out about said misrepresented remarks - insult the poster once their remarks have been spelled out enough times - sarcastically dismiss those remarks once they have no rebuttal (ie “Got it,” “I see”) - (repeat from top)
These two are children and reasoning with them is a waste of energy. The only purpose in debating them is learning patience and anger management.
By Linda
December 18, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
To The Other Jack,
I found an article about the lawsuit you referred to, regarding Muslim prayer in school:
Muslim prayers in school debated http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070702-9999-1n2prayer.html
Excerpt: “Voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts have said. That means students can say grace before a meal and have Bible study clubs on campus, and several San Diego schools do. Public school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.
“Students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, and Good Friday during Holy Week.
“The federal Equal Access Act requires that extracurricular school clubs, religious and non-religious, be treated equally.
“San Diego Unified was sued in 1993 when it denied a University City High School student’s request to hold lunchtime Bible fellowship. The court found the district discriminated against religion, because it allowed secular clubs to meet during lunch.”
We must show new Muslim immigrants what it means to be American, that they have freedom of speech, but that we do have a separation of church and state that prevents them from “taking over.” In return for their freedom of worship, they need to understand that they live in a society that tolerates others, with Christians, Jews and Muslims living and working together in a way that was impossible back home.
If you’re worried about “them” taking over, support strong laws separating church and state. That way, Christians will remain free to worship as we do today, even if non-Christians are in the majority.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this
The POINT is that this HOLIDAY would not be celebrated if it weren’t for the birth of Christ. I don’t necessarily agree with your statement, Chuck. It may not be called Christmas, but there has been some type of celebration at this time of year for centuries and before the rise of Christianity. The tree isn’t Christian at all, but comes from a pagan ritual. And what about Santa Claus? He hasn’t the slightest thing to do with Christian Christmas, yet the story has been around for a very long time and in different European countries.
A beautiful church up the street from my house gave up putting out a Nativity scene four years ago. The last year vandals burned it to the ground, it almost burned down the church, so they gave up their public display on their own property. It is a shame that this happened, but I’m surprised that the church buckled so quickly and easily. I’m also curious as to whether the crime was really anti-christian or stupid kid.
Christians want more religous and less secular. I disagree if only based on the numbers of people shopping and their spending. I think that SOME Christians want more religious and less secular, but the numbers don’t support this as a general statement.
TOJ…The birth of Christ in the Bible and Christmas aren’t quite the same thing. I’m sure you can understand that when Jesus was alive there wasn’t a celebration called Christmas…And that would be because Jesus wouldn’t/couldn’t be recognized as The Messiah until he was crucified. Further, the new Testament wasn’t written when Jesus was alive therefore the “Christmas” story of Jesus birth didn’t exist during His lifetime. So logically it follows that Jesus did NOT celebrate Christmas.
By Nikita
December 18, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it absolutely ridicules that they felt they were forced to do that?
Yep, it’s ridiculous. Not least of which because a bunch of people who belong to the dominant religion, one which is enshrined in a lot of public places and practices, seem to have gotten from certain right-wing pundits the notion that they are persecuted because they can’t force other people to tolerate and pay for their religious practices. Totally ridiculous.
In fact, it’s so ridiculous that I felt I had to respond to it, as I do to you. You aren’t persecuted, and you should stop pretending that you are. People who do not share your religion are far more likely to be persecuted, and show more tolerance of your religion by participating in your holiday rituals, politely responding to your religious greetings, and so on, than you will ever be to them. Because fundamentally you do not respect either the separation of church and state or the practice of any religion other than your own. And then, of course, the public rhetoric holds that people like myself are declaring war on zealots like you. That’s ridiculous.
By Tripp
December 18, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this
We Christians do not need this public mockery of our religion - the so-called war on Christmas conspiracy.
Our God does not require acknowledgment at the mall.
Our religion does not need to be propped-up or made-fun-of by a fool like Bill O’Reilly.
Christian radicals are an embarrassment to the religion.
I hope most regular Christians do not feel so weak and fragile in their faith that they go along with this trumped-up conspiracy theory.
Happy Saturnalia! Merry Christmas! and, Happy Holidays, to all!
-Tripp
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this
Linda
I’m not worried about any religion taking over. Thanks for doing the research. In those schools districts the rules were changed because someone other than Christians brought the suit.
I know this sounds very paranoid. I don’t live my life worrying about this stuff. But I do see a lot power being focused against Christianity.
Read the posts by GOB about the sins of past Christians. Then to to the Goebbels site and read about what was being said about Jews. If you can honestly do that and then tell me there is nothing to worry about, you have more faith in mankind than I.
By Dixie
December 18, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
The difficulty isn’t keeping Christ in Christmas. The difficulty is putting Christ in Christmas. Christmas is a pagan holiday adopted by the Catholic church because the people would not give it up. Most of our Christmas customs, from Santa Clause (Odin) to the evergreen tree, are pagan in origin. I don’t mind. I’m a Unitarian. I celebrate Christmas but don’t wish anyone a “Merry Christmas” unless I now they celebrate it, too.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
Out of curiosity, will anyone publicly admit to “re-gifting”—i.e. the practice of giving a gift you received to someone else next year? ; > } Not on a regular basis, but I’ve done it before and will do it again!
they do celebrate the secular side of Christmas, but they also celebrate the ORIGINAL meaning of the holiday. Are you SURE the do? Do C&E Christians count?
On the topic of Jesus celebrating Christmas…HELLO?! The Bible wasn’t written when Jesus was alive so at best he celebrated his birthday as a birthday and not as the Christmas that is written in the Bible. Further the word Christmas is first seen in 1038.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
“Christmas ORIGIN OF THE WORD The word for Christmas in late Old English is Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, first found in 1038, and Cristes-messe, in 1131. In Dutch it is Kerst-misse, in Latin Dies Natalis, whence comes the French Noël, and Italian Il natale; in German Weihnachtsfest, from the preceeding sacred vigil. The term Yule is of disputed origin. It is unconnected with any word meaning “wheel”. The name in Anglo-Saxon was geol, feast: geola, the name of a month (cf. Icelandic iol a feast in December).
EARLY CELEBRATION Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the “birthdays” of the gods.”
If you take religion out of Christmas, what is left? Everything good, being with family, wanting to help the less fortunate: all came from the religious aspects of the holiday. Hey kids, maybe we’re mis-reading TOJ’s remarks. I can agree with his statement above. But (of course there was a bug) I’m guessing that the religion of which he speaks is Christianity alone rather than religion in general which would include the pagan festivals and rituals which were co-opted by the Christian Church.
By hipnoj
December 18, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
http://foxxxy-dames-com.lyvoqy.com >roman catholic church for older married couples http://t--l--charger-com-simslife.lyvoqy.com >were u.s. secrets stolen by pollard passed on to the soviets http://httt-cumfiesta-com.lyvoqy.com >passive and active transport of the kidney http://nick-com-nicktroplis.lyvoqy.com >free sex offers http://httpp-www-kohnan-net-top-v2.lyvoqy.com >import videogames http://search-yahoo-groups-housewife30.lyvoqy.com >men ib pantys http://pollypokit-com.lyvoqy.com >campgrounds in kentucky http://gerard-titsman-collection.lyvoqy.com >busty black women pics http://faceparty-pass.lyvoqy.com >assistant portfolio manager job description http://fetishland-net.lyvoqy.com >gayhawaii
By hipnoj
December 18, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
http://foxxxy-dames-com.lyvoqy.com >roman catholic church for older married couples http://t--l--charger-com-simslife.lyvoqy.com >were u.s. secrets stolen by pollard passed on to the soviets http://httt-cumfiesta-com.lyvoqy.com >passive and active transport of the kidney http://nick-com-nicktroplis.lyvoqy.com >free sex offers http://httpp-www-kohnan-net-top-v2.lyvoqy.com >import videogames http://search-yahoo-groups-housewife30.lyvoqy.com >men ib pantys http://pollypokit-com.lyvoqy.com >campgrounds in kentucky http://gerard-titsman-collection.lyvoqy.com >busty black women pics http://faceparty-pass.lyvoqy.com >assistant portfolio manager job description http://fetishland-net.lyvoqy.com >gayhawaii
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
Nakita
Yep, it’s ridiculous. Not least of which because a bunch of people who belong to the dominant religion, one which is enshrined in a lot of public places and practices, seem to have gotten from certain right-wing pundits the notion that they are persecuted because they can’t force other people to tolerate and pay for their religious practices. Totally ridiculous.
What a load of crap. Let’s get one thing out of the way that I have let slide, but apparently, it is your only defense of taking away the manger in favor of a giant Best Buy Logo.
Cities decorate for the Holiday Season, just like they used to decorate for Christmas. bvut without Christmas, there is no Holiday season for 80% vof the people in America.
So you don’t mind them spending all that money for the giant Frosty the Politically Correct Snowman that celebrates nothing?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this
tripp
Wonderful sermon. Absolutely wonderful. Obviously Progressive Christianity os the only true way. How dare anyone who thinks differently than you think that they are actually a Christian.
And I have to say that I was one of those lost souls. How dare I think that I could form my own opinions about anything. You are the TRUTH, LIGHT, THE WAY!!!!!
Now where is my Gospel according to Al Gore?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this
NetBaker.
Got it.
Unless a holiday was celebrated by dinosaurs, if the history can only be traced back only say 1800 years, it is hardly a holiday at all.
That’s why I come here. I am learning so much.
But the question is, if I decide to celebrate the Winter Solstice, will that be OK? That is also a religous holiday, just a different religion.
By lozen
December 18, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this
Hi Linda, you sound like the intelligent Christians I know! I do believe so many of us are talking and acting out of fear. And I remember that famous quote: The only thing to fear is fear itself”. Liberals are terrified of conservatives because we feel they want to force their way of life and their religion on everyone. Conservatives are terrified of liberals because they feel we want to force our way of life on them and outlaw their religion. Many people, religious and nonreligious, want to make sure we always honor the separation of church and state. But ppl like TOJ and Chuck think we want to persecute their private religious beliefs! The chasm grows wider every day.
By chuck
December 18, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this
Excuse me Brudog, I’ve been married and FAITHFUL 100% to the same womam for nearly 30 years. I left business making really good money, to devote my life to public service in teaching. I spend MANY weekends and most of my summer in volunteer work and mission trips…ALL AT MY OWN EXPENSE…by the way. I don’t use drugs or alcohol. I don’t smoke. I have worked since I was 12 years old and have never collected one dime of unemployment insurance, welfare, food stamps or any other kind of government assistance. I worked my way through college. I’ve raised 2 kids who are drug alcohol free, coached their little league teams, gone to all of their Tae Kwan Doe/gymnastics tournaments and spend time with them every day talking.
You on the other hand are unemployed because you couldn’t make it in the business world. You drink often, do/did drugs, gamble, can’t keep a steady relationship because you treat them like crap…and I’m a lowlife. And people say you’re crazy.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this
There have been several lawsuits that have won the rights of Muslim children to pray so many time a day in their schools, something that would never be granted to Christians. What are you trying to say about Christians praying in school and granting of a right? Christians aren’t required by their faith to pray 5 times a day at specific times which could interfere with class time so they’ve had no reason to file suit. Christians don’t have a specific manner in which to pray either (we’re not required to bow head, close eyes, clasp hands..it’s just tradition) so one could pray at any given moment and no one would know unlike Muslims.
Can you specifically name or point me to anti-Christian groups because I’m honestly not aware of any?
You’ve also cited the Pledge of Allegiance with the ‘under God’ reference as part of the removal of religion from schools. The pledge was written in 1892 and amended in 1954 to add ‘under God. ’ Is the mention of God in the post 54 pledge more important than the traditional (which you seem to very strongly believe in as a concept)? Even as of this year the pledge without God was in use longer than the with God version so wouldn’t tradition support reverting to the “Godless” version? If not, then what are the rules regarding when tradition is to be observed and when is it to be ignored?
By Monica
December 18, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this
The pledge was written in 1892 and amended in 1954 to add ‘under God.’
I was not aware of that! Reminds me of the Georgia flag/southern heritage controversy. :)
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this
I do see a lot power being focused against Christianity. TOJ…what I think you’re really seeing is a lot of power being focused against FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity. It is those on the far-right fringe of the Christian umbrella who most disagree with. It is these types of christians who would ignore the separation of church and state at their own peril. These are the christians who profess that only their brand of christianity is the TRUE FAITH. These people scare the heck out of a LOT of christians.
By Jack
December 18, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this
Wow Chuck. See no evil, hear no evil, have no fun.
By chuck
December 18, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this
Yes NetB it was amended in 1954 to add the words “under God”. As you recall that was at the beginning of the “Red Scare”. People were afraid that the Godless commies were going to take over. They began paying more attention to the God that blessed us so greatly as a nation and began to look for ways to acknowledge Him in more areas of both our public and private lives. Your analogy was a little bit off though. That tradition wasn’t ENDED. It was added to. There is a big difference.
The same thing is true about Christmas. For instance, you call the Christmas tree a pagan ritual. It may indeed have started that way, but who cares? It certainly does not mean that to Christians anymore. It is the perfect symbolism for Christ. We use evergreen trees that represent the eternal life the believer receives through Christ. The gifts under the tree remind us that the wisemen brought the Christ Child gifts of gold, frankenscense and myrrh. The lights represent the idea that Jesus is the light of the world. Trees are often topped with a star, symbolizing the star of Bethlehem or an Angel representing the Angels that heralded His birth. These are decidedly CHRISTIAN traditions…regardless how they started.
By Archie
December 18, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this
Tripp,I really liked your 12:48 pm post.
On a another topic I would like to hear from Netbanker about a new plan approved by the federal reserve board concerning home mortgages. I mean no harm in bringing up another subject but this topic was discussed last year at this time and it’s really kind of boring because I see the same extreme responses.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this
Unless a holiday was celebrated by dinosaurs, if the history can only be traced back only say 1800 years, it is hardly a holiday at all. If YOU choose to understand my rebuttal of YOUR ascertion that Jesus himself celebrated CHRISTMAS there’s not much I can do about it. YOU made the ascertion that Jesus celebrated “Christmas.” I responded with logic and information from a CATHOLIC CHURCH web site (which i posted so it could be verified) that tells us there was NO SUCH THING in the early christian church as CHRISTMAS.
By chuck
December 18, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this
As for the list, NetB:
The Anti-Christian Coalition
The People For The American Way
Human Rights Campaign
Alliance For Justice
Among others.
By Sainthood Committee
December 18, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
I nominate chuck. Any seconds?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this
NetBaker
Recognize this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
That is a recognition of God in the Declaration of Independence.
If you want to insist on playing this stupid “not old enough” game, beat the Declaration of Independence.
By Tripp
December 18, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
Glad you liked, Archie.
This whole ‘non-issue’ trivializes Christianity and its adherants.
By lozen
December 18, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
TOJ, please get over yourself. Nobody, NOBODY has said it’s not okay for you to celebrate your holiday any way you want to. Stuff rum balls up your b-tt to celebrate xmas if you want. Nobody cares.
By David
December 18, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this
Here is a blog devoted to this issue. Come, be a part of the Society for a Merry Christmas! www.christmasandfaith.blogspot.com
By Linda
December 18, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this
To The Other Jack,
You said, “In those schools districts the rules were changed because someone other than Christians brought the suit.” Actually, the rules weren’t changed, but the existing laws were used to accomodate those of a faith which requires them to pray more often than Christians, and a designated times. They can have extra prayer time, but still have to do the same amount of homework. This will be an object lesson to them as they enter the workforce, and I expect to see branches of “reform” Islam spring up, as workers realize they have to put in the same amount of work, even as they take extra time for prayer. There are already “Westernized” branches of Hindu, for instance, which have decided to modify prayer rituals to accomodate a realistic work schedule, (and I know this for a fact because some of my friends are Hindu).
You said: “I know this sounds very paranoid. I don’t live my life worrying about this stuff. But I do see a lot power being focused against Christianity.”
Well, I’m glad to know you don’t spend a lot of time worrying about it. You should enjoy the freedom we have, instead of worrying about what we don’t have. The power you perceive being focused against Christianity is acually part of the fight to keep our separation of church and state. Should we declare ourselves a Christian nation? That would be, ultimately, indefensible just as soon as another majority came to power. Also, it would be unconstitutional, per the First Amendment, which says, in part: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
Goebbels and the Nazis are a good example of what happens when you mix politics and religion, and when mainstream Chistians do not speak out. The Nazis attempted a Reich Church, which attempted to merge all the different Protestant groups in one church.(http://www.crisismagazine.com/february2004/book5.htm and from Schoolnet: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERchristianity.htm)
You said…”you have more faith in mankind than I.” Not really. I don’t trust mankind at all. That’s why I support laws and our Constitution, which protect us from those with ill intent.
By B
December 18, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
You on the other hand are retired because you couldn’t make it in the business world
Nice try, Mr. Shining Light of Compassion. I’ve got enough assets to take off for another 10 years if I choose to.
Drink often
Yeah, that 1-2 drinks per month is really outrageous, I know.
Gamble
As much money as I’ve won playing poker last year, I don’t consider it gambling. Too bad you don’t play Holdem. I love taking money from A-holes like you.
Can’t keep a steady relationship because you treat them like crap
Only 1 woman ever left me, chuck. I initiated every other breakup. Maybe some guys like a little variety, ever think of that. I have praised you on the blog for your monogamy and committment to your wife.
I have worked since 12 years old.
I’ll stack my number of working hours in my life vs. yours anytime, chuckles. I started working full-time on real jobs at age 11. I don’t think your paper routes compare to the adult jobs I’ve been doing my whole life.
So, chuck makes you feel bad about yourself
Not in the least, TOJ. I see him for what he is—an insecure person who constantly has to down others for their foibles/choices while trying to place himself on a pedestal at every opportunity. The reason I can see that so clearly is that I’ve been guilty of doing the same many times. Try to get chuck to admit as much and see how far you get. Somehow he believes that his own doo-doo doesn’t stink.
By Archie
December 18, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
Stuff rum balls up your b-tt to celebrate xmas if you want. Nobody cares True statement.
This whole ‘non-issue’ trivializes Christianity and its adherants. Tripp that’s another true statement.
By The fifth and final Jack
December 18, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
The Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA dot org) is a Christian organization that meets regularly in most public middle and high schools here in Georgia. They meet on campus before or after school, usually weekly. They set up tables and recruit members at orientation, along side the various sports and clubs in the school. No one complains. No one tries to stop them. They sell t-shirts with their name and logo and such, and often a Christian message, to raise money for activities and retreats. Kids wear them to school without being sent to the principal’s office. There is no war on being Christian in public schools. Call your neighborhood high school and ask.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this
NetBaker
It is these types of christians who would ignore the separation of church and state at their own peril.
I’m still waiting for someone, anyone to show me where the constitution says anything close to that. I’m certainly not a fundy. Hell, I’m not even a Christian. My entire family is. But I’m not.
These are the christians who profess that only their brand of christianity is the TRUE FAITH. These people scare the heck out of a LOT of christians.
No they don’t. Christianity requires they believe that, as does most of the world’s major religions. Mine is the way, the truth and the light. No man comith unto the father except by me.
I’ll tell you what scares the hell out of me. What scares the hell out of me is everyone putting Christianity at a standard that is absolutely impossible to achieve. Christians were barbarians 800 year ago, they were killing villages of innocent Muslims. Buddest slaughtered most of Europe during the terror of Ghangus Khan. Islam … do I need to go on?
I beg you. Go read the speeches of Goebbels. See how he is putting Jews against a standard, just like Christians are now being put against an impossible standard.
Christians can believe anything they want, and that is none of your business if you are not a Christian. If they want to think they are the only ones going to heaven, that is no more your business than the Muslim who thinks he will earn 72 houses with 72 virgins in each room of each house.
But what you don’t get is this: It is perfectly OK and certainly pol;itically correct to make a statement like These are the christians who profess that only their brand of christianity is the TRUE FAITH. These people scare the heck out of a LOT of christians. And that’s OK.
But say this: These are the Muslims who profess that only their brand of Islam is the TRUE FAITH. Does that scare you? Why not? Muslims fly planes into buildings. When was the last time anyone killed in the name of Christianity?
You and others that are so quick to condemn an entire religion need to step back and look at what you are promoting.
Political correctness does not pardon bigotry against a religion. It didn’t in Germany in 1938 and it doesn’t in the United States in 2007.
By B
December 18, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this
The bottom line, chuck and TOJ is that not everyone shares the same vision of “God” that you do. And because “God” is unknowable, it’s not a question that can be settled by any amount of debate, coercion, etc.
IMO, the truly “Godly” folks in this life are the ones who content to keep their own backyards clean, and feel no compulsion to spread hateful feelings and words, which is all that you two are doing on this blog.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this
The fifth and final Jack
Thank you so much for allowing those kids to meet in that one organization. All Christians thank you and are grateful that they are allowed to do that. You are a very generous person.
Again, thanks so much.
By B
December 18, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this
The saddest part, chuck, is that while you claim to use the Bible as your literal guide to life, you don’t even know what the book says. Your argument last year that Christmas trees, Sunday Sabbath, and Easter eggs are all biblically supported is beyond idiotic, it’s pure blasphemy.
Tell us again what a great guy you are. I don’t think we heard you the first 3000 times.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
B
IMO, the truly “Godly” folks in this life are the ones who content to keep their own backyards clean, and feel no compulsion to spread hateful feelings and words, which is all that you two are doing on this blog.
I’m glad you made that ruling, your honor. I would point out that your entire last post was spreading nothing but hateful feelings, but since you are the secular, how can that be? How could you hate anyone? Hell you are not even a conservative.
By lovelyliz
December 18, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis
By Jack
December 18, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
Celebrating Christmas is mainly for the children IMO. Although too much emphasis is put on filling the room with gifts it’s great to see their faces as they tear open their bounty. Ours are grown now and it just isn’t the same. All who have children still at home savor every minute they are there. :)
By Andy's fan club
December 18, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this
Hi Andy. How is life in East Cobb? Pretty good since you don’t have to go to work anymore. Are they finished with that annoying road construction over there on Lower Roswell? Good you are staying home and out of trouble. Why “Jack?”
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this
B
Think about what a great service chuck offers you. You can get as righteous as you want and preach to a Christians about being such a moralist.
I’m sure you agree with this writer:
Peculiar people whose life is either behind them, or have no right to have one ahead of them, preach moralism in the name of our revolution. This moralism often has nothing in common with true morality. They proclaim ethical laws that might be appropriate for a nunnery, but are entirely out of place in a modern cultural state.
By lovelyliz
December 18, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this
Can anyone explain to me what is about about chenille, HDTVs and made in China with lead painted toys that is Christian?
By B
December 18, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this
TOJ—I’m having a hard time deciding on what Christmas present to give you. I can’t decide between a mirror and a telephone-pole extractor.
I don’t need chuck to feel righteous, or even self-righteous. It just saddens me to see him turn everyone away from what should be a positive, uplifting message, that’s all. Once again, I see in him what I don’t like about myself.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
Hey Monica! Glad I could add some educational value. Here’s a nice, concise history of the pledge:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
analogy was a little bit off though. That tradition wasn’t ENDED. It was added to. But Chuck, TOJ’s prior references to tradition are that traditional things should not be changed or modified at all. He’s also mentioned the Pledge of Allegiance in relation to religion out of schools. I stand by my analogy and questions as to whether his stance on tradition should be subjegated to his stance on religion in schools.
By B
December 18, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
Hey JokesOn—Missed your greeting. Hope you make it home and into your easy chair before the New Year.
The only reason to debate them is to practice patience and anger management
How did you know that those are my two weakest areas?? Well, that and dealing with the emotional triggers that angry women present to me. ; > }
By B
December 18, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this
NetB—Don’t confuse chuck with the facts!!
BTW, you’re the only guy/girl on this blog who I would fear at the poker table at this point. You don’t know it, but you’ve helped me plug the last few “leaks” in my game, at least at the poker table.
Now if I could only plug my leaks in the game of life…..
By Jack
December 18, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this
Who’s on 1st ???
Yes, that last sappy post was mine. I got misty typing it.
By Linda
December 18, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this
I really think the attack on Christianity is being perpetrated by loud-mouths like Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbaugh. People like me shy away from calling ourselves Christian, for fear of being identified with those people.
The blowhard right-wingers are side-tracking us with these phony “wars” on our faith. Real Christians need to stand up whenever we can and speak out on behalf of the least of these, as Jesus wants us to. Want more Christianity in government? Then support full funding of S-CHIP, Head Start, free school lunches and after school programs; support real healthcare reform and welfare for the needy. That’s what Jesus really wants for his birthday.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
Linda
Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbaugh have never claimed a faith, as far as I know. Do you know differently?
They are a lot like me and work very hard to defend the rights of people of faith, but I don’t think they have ever claimed to be Christians.
By B
December 18, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this
I got misty typing it
That’s ok, Jack. You’re among friends. ; > }
By B
December 18, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this
lozen—Nice reference to Judy Collins earlier. I’m sure you remember that the CSN song, “Suite Judy Blue Eyes” was written for her, I believe by David Crosby.
Quick rock trivia quiz for you: What female singer was immortalized in the Led Zeppelin song “Going to California”?
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the list…can you give an example of an activity by HRC or any of the other groups you mention that is specifically anti-Christian?
TOJ…What ‘old enough’ game are you talking about? And in reference to what topic? Jesus/Christmas or Tradition/Religion. I need some context to attempt to respond because I haven’t the slightest idea of what the Declaration has to do with anything that has been posted in regard to either topic combo above.
These are the christians who profess that only their brand of christianity is the TRUE FAITH. These people scare the heck out of a LOT of christians…No they don’t. Christianity requires they believe that, as does most of the world’s major religions. You’re reading my statement too narrowly and if you don’t seem to comprehend that the majority of christians do not believe that those of a different denomination are any less christian than they. It is the fundamentalist christians who believe that any christian who does not belong to their fundamentalist sect/denomination are not, in fact, christians. I’m not condeming christianity nor do I have an issue with christianity…I have an issue with christian fundamentalists the same as I have an issue with muslim fundamentalists who fly planes into buildings. How did you not get that I was speaking about fundamentalists when I specifically stated “what I think you’re really seeing is a lot of power being focused against FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity. It is those on the far-right fringe of the Christian umbrella who most disagree with.” Somehow you managed to turn that into my being against Christianity period.
Last..the constitution itself does not specifically mention separate of church and state beyond what is written in the establishment clause in the 1st Amendment. The correspondence between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists provides insight into the thoughts and concerns that Jefferson and the founding fathers were attempting to address. In this era it seems too many forget that the original settlers came here to escape state established religion and the persecution of those who did not adhere to the religion of the state. It was the Danbury Baptists themselves who were concerned with the state interfering in their, or any other religious organization’s, ability to practice their beliefs.
Liz…who knows?! It came from TOJ.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this
To Everyone
I apologize for this weeks posts. It is hard seeing people that so overtly attack Christianity and they are so used to these attacks being accepted and politically correct that they don’t even understand what they are doing.
My entire point is to ask all of you the question: where will it all end up?
Christianity, while enjoying a recent surge, is still losing millions a year worldwide. My generation is probably the last in my very religous family that goes to church. I rarely do and my kids never do.
If any reader is young enough, in your lifetime, Christianity will be a small minority. What will the current trends lead to when Christians are a small minority?
Will they still be held responsible for the sins of the crusades? Will they be remembered like many on here have referred to them? How hard will it be to outlaw such a small, vile minority?
Prayer was taken out of our schools in the late 60s. Then our schools were the best in the world. Now they are some of the worst and most violent. We saw how that trend took us.
How will this “imaginary” war on Christmas end? How long will it take before the nest trend is to require that Christians only worship in private, away from the public eye… no wait, that has already happened. And apparently, many on here are just so thankful that we are still allowed to do that.
Where will it go when only 10% of the country is Christian? How many of you would want the remaining 10% to be outlawed?
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this
Want more Christianity in government? Then support full funding of S-CHIP, Head Start, free school lunches and after school programs; support real healthcare reform and welfare for the needy. That’s what Jesus really wants for his birthday. Linda…go girl! You’ve pointed out a conundrum that I’ve never really been able to solve regarding the Republican party. They claim to be the party of Family Values and portray themselves as people of faith yet at the same time they haven’t ever done much to pass legislation supportive of the family and seem to work against it. Where is the support for expanding the FMLA? If abortion is bad and babies so darn good why do Americans have the least options and time for maternity leave in the industrialized world?
By GOB
December 18, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this
What are you talking about? There have been several lawsuits that have won the rights of Muslim children to pray so many time a day in their schools, something that would never be granted to Christians. But then, this is all my imagination, right?
Jack O’Reilly - I agree that most of this war on christmas is in your imagination. And surely you arent implying that christian children arent allowed to pray in school. As someone who is in a school everyday, I can assure you that they are. The school itself doesnt say a christian prayer, but students can pray whenever they like.
Incrementalism goes in one direction. We will never have that back. But then again, that must sound really stupid to you.
Going back to a system where the minority is forced to participate in a religous activity of another faith does, in fact, sound really stupid to me. We dont live in a society where everyone is christian, and I understand that that scares some people. If we take the the founding principles of this country seriously, we have to believe that each individual can practice their religion however they like, but the state should stay out of the religion business.
No one has answered this question. If you take religion out of Christmas, what is left? Everything good, being with family, wanting to help the less fortunate: all came from the religious aspects of the holiday.
They may have all come from religion (although, I am not convinced that spending time with family is really a religously inspired act, even in December), but that doesnt mean that they will disappear if the religion is taken out. I’m still able to enjoy spending time with my family and giving to charities without the religion piece of it. Its very easy in fact.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this
NetBaker
What does the date of an amendment to the Pledge of Allegence have to do with Christmas?
What does whoever worshiped in ancient religions in December have to do with Christmas?
Rad my posts to everyone. Maybe that will explain some things.
By Linda
December 18, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this
To The Other Jack,
You said, “Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbaugh have never claimed a faith, as far as I know. Do you know differently?”
Ann Coulter was all over the morning talk shows just recently claiming that she’s a Christian, and that Jews should be converted. Here’s an interview with Ann Coulter, conducted by Charlotte Allen of BeliefNet: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/196/story196461.html and another one from Fox News, which gives the quote about converting Jews: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301216,00.html
I assumed that O’Reilly and Limbaugh are Christian, since they seem so overwrought over their perceived erosion of “Christian values,” and talk endlessly about the “war on Christmas,” and stuff like that. But maybe they’re just provocateur and have no religious beliefs at all.
By B
December 18, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
I apologize for this week’s posts.
Apology accepted, forgiveness given, TOJ. Please, please try to identify the true source of your anger. I have a hard time beleiving that it has anything to so with any trumped-up “Attack on Christmas”. From an objective point of view, the world is improving, not in decline. Ladies and non-white citizens are getting more respect than ever, which is a good thing, IMO.
Are you perhaps saddened by the fact that we’re not so young anymore, and that a new generation of hip-hoppers has replaced the old tie-dye hippies? I’m guessing every generation eventually finds themselves marginalized. Even the so-called “Greatest Generation” that lived during WWII. How much respect do they get at this point?
By B
December 18, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this
O’Reilly is a Catholic, as well as Sean Hannity. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, but I don’t beleive he has ever declared a faith on-air.
BTW, all of these guys admit that they are in the “entertainment” business. IF you take what they say too seriously, that’s your own fault. Personally, I think Neil Boortz is a lot smarter than the whole bunch of them.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this
How long will it take before the nest trend is to require that Christians only worship in private, away from the public eye… no wait, that has already happened. Huh? There’s a law that Christians can only worship in private? Do you have any studies that clearly correlates the removal of mandatory participation in joining a Christian Prayer led by the homeroom teacher to the decline in our educational status? Do you honestly believe that reciting a Christian Prayer would stop gang-related violence in schools or make children who weren’t raised at home to respect authority figures or their elders suddenly become model students?
Where will it go when only 10% of the country is Christian? How many of you would want the remaining 10% to be outlawed? As a 10 percenter that currently has no legal discrimination protection and most christians supporting consitutional amendments denying me access to civil marriage law I’d never support them being outlawed. I already know too well what it feels like to be actively discriminated against by the majority.
By B
December 18, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this
Also, Linda, I think most people recognize that Ann Coulter is unfair and mean-spirited.
My favorite conservative author is Thomas Sowell. Coulter isn’t fit to carry his __. (oops, almost used an inappropriate sexual reference).
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this
linda
I honestly didn’t know that about Ann Coulter. I’m not a fan. I do occasionally listen to Rush if I am driving from 12 to 3, but that is rare. I’ve never heard him mention the war on Christmas, but I haven’t listened to him in a couple of months.
O’Reilly, yea, that’s what he does.
I think O’Rielly is seeing the same incrementalism that I see. I think it was foolish to say that there was a war on Christmas. Especially on a secular controlled medium like television.
Incrementalism doesn’t turn back. There is nothing he can do.
My entire point is where does that incrementalism lead, especially when Christianity becomes a small minority?
Can you promise that they will never be treated as a minority like they are treated while they are a majority?
By B
December 18, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this
Linda and NetB—I appreciate the compassion which underlies your support of more school involvement in the lives of our kids through after-school programs, etc., but IMO, any substitution for a stay-at-home mom or dad is not the direction we should be heading.
I’m trying hard to “liberalize” some of my views, so may ultimately agree with more time off for having a child or caring for a loved one. However, as a former small business owner, I also understand that small businesses only have so many assets to share with the employees, however deserving they may be.
By lozen
December 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this
When and if Christians are only 10 percent of the population they will be fine as long as we have separation of church and state and freedom of religion in this country. That is exactly what Linda is saying. That is what Netbanker is saying. That’s what a lot of us are saying.
By Linda
December 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this
To The Other Jack,
You said, “Prayer was taken out of our schools in the late 60s. Then our schools were the best in the world. Now they are some of the worst and most violent. We saw how that trend took us.”
How do you explain the academic excellence, discipline, and non-violence in Communist countries? Prayer doesn’t make schools excellent, funding does, along with family discipline at home.
Our schools are breaking down, in part, because families are breaking down, not because they don’t pray aloud during school (they do have voluntary prayer gatherings before and after school).
By Archie
December 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this
First of all I want to give TOJ credit for apologizing but second I think you need to take yourself and your kids to church. As much as you seem to care about christianity it does not make sense that you don’t go to church. Heck,I go 3 or 4 times a month and I am liberal according to most. TOJ are you just joking around with the bloggers? I mean come clean about your opinion because the people here can discuss anything intelligently without someone playing games,shouting,insulting,etc. This particular blog has way less racism,sexism, and general rudeness than any blog I have seen. My point is discuss things straight up without attacking or following up things like prayer in schools. Students can pray anytime and a good christian knows that he/she does not need a group to pray. I pray at my desk off and on all the time so if a person is really sincere versus just following a political philosophy they can do what they want to religiously.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this
NetBaker
Haven’t you heard? There can’t be prayer in school. And no, putting it back in will not fix it.
It wasn’t just prayer. It was several issues that related to dictating morality to the students. Seemed to work. But you can’t fix it now.
Are you sure it is the Christians that don’t want you to have the title of “Married”? Is it the title you really want or the rights that go along with the title.
California saw that as the compromise that everyone could live with, give homosexuals the same rights and the compromise would be that there would be another word for gay marriage.
But no. Now gays that have all the legal rights, want to discard the compromise that actually means nothing but semantics.
I sympathize with you to a degree. Gays are no more willing to compromise than some Christians, conservatives, liberals and progressives.
My way or the highway gets nothing done. Work to make it work and you will get a lot more sympathy from the entire country.
But it’s not the Christians that want to hurt you. Democrats have been the majority for going on two years and what bills ahve been introduced to block such an amendment? How did that eight years under Clinton help you guys out?
How gays or Blacks would ever vote for a democrats beats the hell out of me.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
lozen
So you are saying, for the first time in history: incrementalism is going to reverse itself and the current trend to discard as much of the Christian religion in the public square will become a trend of tolerance.
My problem is that I have read too much history and have never known of such a trend reversal without something really horrible happening like the holocaust. BTW, the Jewish Holocaust of the 1940s is just one of thousands of recorded religous or ethnic cleaning instances down through history.
I just don’t see how you guys can claim that it can never happen. Is it just for the sake of argument or do you really believe that?
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this
Archie
Thanks, but I don’t care about Christianity. I care about people’s rights to worship how they wish.
By The Other Jack
December 18, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this
Linda
How do you explain the academic excellence, discipline, and non-violence in Communist countries? Prayer doesn’t make schools excellent, funding does, along with family discipline at home.
Extreme corporal punishment. Japan used to use the same techniques. You don’t have to beat the hell out of kid but once or twice before you never need to beat them again. I perfer teaching morals, myself.
Our schools are breaking down, in part, because families are breaking down, not because they don’t pray aloud during school (they do have voluntary prayer gatherings before and after school).
Families are breaking down? They aren’t even families. And I’m sure the absence of religion in modern culture had nothing to do with that.
Religion has a purpose. Go to the roughest neighborhood in town and visit with kids that go to church and kids that don’t. You will have a few in either group that are different, but very few.
By Nikita
December 18, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this
The Other Jack:
Please be quiet about how I spend my holiday. For starters, you’re wrong. I don’t buy any presents that I am not expected and/or asked to buy by my christian relatives. So I don’t want to see christmas become the season of giving. I don’t care what it becomes, because it is as far as I’m concerned two holidays. One is a federally-mandated day off from work which we may all celebrate regardless of creed. The other is the celebration of a religion I don’t believe in. So any celebrating I do of that portion of it is strctly politeness.
There is a season for every single one of us. There are christmas trees, there are carols, there are decorations, and there is a federally-established day off. What is the season, if not religious? It is caring, family time, a time of reflection and a time to remember those who are no longer with us. A religion isn’t necessary for any of it — but those values are also reflected in religions other than christianity that celebrate the season. And furthermore, as a citizen who is not a christian, and who does not want my money being spent on advancing christianity, I’m glad.
By NetBanker
December 18, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this
Rad my posts to everyone. Maybe that will explain some things. So far it only seems to be explaining that you aren’t following your own conversations or have no recollection of your own posts. The Pledge..in response to prior posts YOU made bringing up the Pledge. Older religions…in response to your post that Jesus celebrated christmas.
Haven’t you heard? There can’t be prayer in school. Yes there can…it just can’t be a mandatory prayer nor led by any school official. Students can and do pray in schools…all on their own because they choose to do so. And isn’t that what we would want? People living their faith by willing example?
Yes, I’m pretty sure christians do not want me to have the title Married. Chuck is quite clear about that…in fact he doesn’t want me to have the legal rights either even if they are called something other than marriage. Personally, I could care less what it’s called and agree with you that too much of our society has become focused on ‘my way or the highway’. Neither Clinton nor the Dems have done a darn thing for gay people although Republicans actively used us as a wedge issue to distract the nation from more pressing problems such as the deficit, illegal immigration, energy independence,etc. To be honest, I think that the Judicial branch will be the branch of government that forces a response just as happened in a few states and with other social issues because goodness knows politician are no longer leaders who focus on doing what is right…they’re too busy being focused on fund raising and getting re-elected to actually LEAD.
TOJ…can you define ‘the public square’ for us? If you mean ‘in public’ then most of us don’t have any problem with christian or any other religion’s displays ‘in public.’ The issue many of us have is when ‘the public square’ means federal/state (i.e. taxpayer) funded religious display. One doesn’t go to the DMV to baptise a baby any more than one goes to Church to renew their car tags.
By Mary-sj
December 19, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this
http://dypatu.com >khleo thomas -er forgive and forget video [url=http://dypatu.com]khleo thomas -er forgive and forget video[/url]
By Mary-sj
December 19, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this
http://dypatu.com >khleo thomas -er forgive and forget video [url=http://dypatu.com]khleo thomas -er forgive and forget video[/url]
By Mary-nf
December 19, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
http://huluga.com >picture galleries of shemales with big t** [url=http://huluga.com]picture galleries of shemales with big t**[/url]
By Mary-nf
December 19, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
http://huluga.com >picture galleries of shemales with big t** [url=http://huluga.com]picture galleries of shemales with big t**[/url]
By Mary-ck
December 19, 2007 1:43 AM | Link to this
http://geqafe.com >muddy f*** [url=http://geqafe.com]muddy f***[/url]
By Mary-ck
December 19, 2007 1:44 AM | Link to this
http://geqafe.com >muddy f*** [url=http://geqafe.com]muddy f***[/url]
By Ann-pu
December 19, 2007 2:48 AM | Link to this
http://huluga.com >picture galleries of shemales with big t** [url=http://huluga.com]picture galleries of shemales with big t**[/url]
By Ann-pu
December 19, 2007 2:48 AM | Link to this
http://huluga.com >picture galleries of shemales with big t** [url=http://huluga.com]picture galleries of shemales with big t**[/url]
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this
NetBaker
in response to your post that Jesus celebrated christmas.
It has to be humi;iating enough that you can only come up with the lame arguments that you come up with, but when you need to make up things that you claim that I have said … Really sort of pathetic.
Sorry about you, man. Grow a brain and try again.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this
Nikita
I’m glad you have your saason. Is it OK that Christians have theirs?
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this
Yesterday tripp had the answer: Progressive Christianity. That is Christianity that meets his standards for being a Christian. If you think like he thinks and you say the right things and don’t say the wrong things and you do the right things and don’t do the wrong things, then tripp will allow you to be a Christian.
It’s so much better than the old fashion free thinking way. It’s just like being a progressive: think exactly like us and all is well and you will be accepted.
I say that’s what you need to do.
Worship your commercialized Winter Holiday, gather with your family and read verses from An Inconvenient Truth, Watch reruns of past EarthDay concerts and sing praises to … well, whoever or whatever you feel deserves praise.
The Christians will hide in their churches and homes and keep all that nasty religion out of your site,
Does that work OK for everyone?
By Gale
December 19, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this
“But no. Now gays that have all the legal rights, want to discard the compromise that actually means nothing but semantics.” No, they don’t In some states a civil union has the same rights as a marriage. The rights do not extend to federal rights granted to marriages, nor do they follow the couple to other states. I do not call this equal. It is a bad compromise.
Further, I have no war against any religious holiday. I find most of them wonderful and beautiful. I wish we could be more aware of the holidays and fesivals of non-Christian holidays in the western world.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this
Wow, where to begin this morning?
TOJ, I am a high school teacher, and though there may not be a mandated time of prayer in the morning, there is prayer in school, by both teachers and students. No one has taken away my right to pray.
Netbanker, Hi! I almost responded to your TRUE FAITH comments yesterday until I re-read and saw that you put the phrase “their brand of Christianity.” I agree. I do profess that there is only one true faith: I believe in God the father, that His son Jesus died for our sins, that He is the Savior, that I am saved by God’s grace no matter how many good deeds I perform, yet I should aspire to perform those good deeds (The Methodist Creed pretty much sums it all up!). I will argue with a believer of another religion that my religion is the true faith, because I couldn’t claim to be a Christian otherwise. HOWEVER, bickering amongst ourselves has got to stop. A wise man once said, “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”
I don’t think that there is a war on Christmas, nor a war on Christians, but I do think that it is now considered “politically incorrect” to be a Christian, a problem that we have brought mainly on ourselves.
I’ve got more, but I dont like to have long posts, so I will pace myself (my kids are taking finals today).
By Andy's fan club
December 19, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this
Andy is angry. Pray for Andy.
By Linda
December 19, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
Mr b&n:
You said, “As a retail worker, I can say that the only time I’m offended by “Merry Christmas” is when it’s spat at me from between the clenched jaws of a red-faced customer wearing a “Jesus is the Reason” pin who apparently decided that my “Have a great evening” was not season-appropriate enough for his or her tastes.”
I used to work in retail, and I quit for that very reason. The closer to Christmas we got, the more rude customers got, and yes, they did spit out hostile “Merry Christmas” greetings—if you can call them greetings—and ask things like how come our cash register receipts didn’t have “Merry Christmas” on them. (Uh, because we’re a small family business and don’t have the kind of receipt generator that puts a message on it. It just has the price.) They would also harrass my workers in the food court, asking them why they’re taking a break when it’s busy at the store, not taking into account that these kids had been on their feet all morning, with a long afternoon and evening ahead of them.
The Other Jack asked, “Where will it go when only 10% of the country is Christian?” After having waited on nasty customers at a mall, I’d say we’re at the 10% mark right now!
By Linda
December 19, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this
Great letter from Jesus, lovelyliz. Thanks for posting that.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this
monica
TOJ, I am a high school teacher, and though there may not be a mandated time of prayer in the morning, there is prayer in school, by both teachers and students. No one has taken away my right to pray.
right.
And no one told the Jews that they couldn’t pray, but just that they could only pray in their own Ghettos… well that was of course before the ghettos were emptied into the death camps. But that could never happen here, right?
I will argue with a believer of another religion that my religion is the true faith, because I couldn’t claim to be a Christian otherwise.
You don’t get it. Every other religion in the world believes that, but since Christianity is under attack in America, people like NetBaker are scared to death of people who believe their’s in the only true faith.
And it’s not that you believe anything different from anyone else, it’s just that when a political correct crusade against a race or religion is accepted in the general population of sheep, they need reasons to fear and hate you.
Again, I beg that you go to the Goebbels site I listed earlier and see how many parallels there are about the things being said about Christians and Christianity and the things that were said about Jews and their religion.
I know you are not going to take the time to do that which is a real shame since you are a teacher.
You could actually be teaching your students about the truth about what really inspired the most educated and civilized nation on earth to become a nation of NAZIs in just a few short years.
I know that would interfere with your global warming lectures and your History books full of Madonna and O.J. Simpson, but maybe you could be the “different” teacher.
I know … asking too much.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this
Andy’s fan club
Andy’s fan club is a poor half-wit that can’t stage an intelligent and adult conversation so he does this:
Andy is angry. Pray for Andy.
Pray for Andy’s fan club.
By Linda
December 19, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this
To all who have questions about progressive Christianity: I’m in a group of progressive Christians and we base our social and political outreach programs around Matthew 25 (for those who are not familiar with it, here is an excerpt—Matthew 25:34-36, New International Version: “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”)
And yes, we’re all liberals, most of us are Democrats, and we do celebrate Christmas. The only people who think liberals don’t celebrate Christmas are the right-wing hatemongers on talk radio.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this
Okay, I’m going to offer some socialist/communist comments here with regard to federal “rights” granted to married people - since someone mentioned this yesterday, but I can’t remember who.
1) Marriage is a religious principle, while civil unions are not, so technically speaking, married people should not be granted special tax deduction status if civil union people are not. 2) If a person works, he or she should be able to claim a deduction, whether the person is married to someone of the opposite sex, the same sex, or is unmarried. 3) If in a household there is one provider, and the other does not work, perhaps that provider should be granted a tax deduction. 4) If we adopted a flat tax (15% of our income) and eliminated deductions altogther, this argument would go away.
My understanding is that currently, a person with health insurance cannot add his or her partner of the same sex to the policy. Is this correct?
Another “alternate lifestyle,” IMO, is the religious group whose members practice poligamy, which is illegal (why is this practice illegal? I definitely don’t condone it, but I’m just wondering). Can the man have health insurance for all of his wives, or just one? If either of the above groups can have healthcare for dependents in an “alternate lifestyle,” then both should.
Just some thoughts.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this
TOJ,
FYI, I am an English teacher, so I don’t lecture on any of the categories you mentioned. I do, however, spend time discussing religion since it pervades literature. When I taught World Literature, we read two flood stories - the one in Genesis and the one from Gilgamesh. We discussed the differences and similarities. My students know that I am a Christian. I can’t tell them that they should believe what I believe, but I can tell them what I believe if they ask. I tend to think that actions speak louder than words. My kids can hopefully see that I am a Christian without me having to tell them. I promise to check out your web link to the Goebbels site if you promise to take your family to church this Sunday. :)
Also - check out a current high school history book - I don’t think you’ll find a section dedicated to OJ or Madonna.
By Snidely Butright
December 19, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
“You could actually be teaching your students about the truth about what really inspired the most educated and civilized nation on earth to become a nation of NAZIs in just a few short years.”
9/11…9/11…9/11…9/11…9/11…9/11…9/11…wmd…wmd…wmd…wmd…wmd…wmd…code orange terror alert…code orange terror alert…code orange terror alert…sleeper cells…sleeper cells…sleeper cells…sleeper cells…torture…torture…torture…torture…be afraid…be afraid…be afraid…be afraid…9/11…9/11…9/11…etc.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
Monica
We agree. It is incredibly messed up. A flat tax is the only answer, but you may notice that no one with any power is offering that option.
So many problems in this country are incredibly complex and while we want to solve them with simple concepts like “Support or Troops, bring them home”, most solutions are multifaceted and nothing is that simple.
But the flat tax is an extremely complex set of hundreds of problems that could be fixed with a very simple solution. This one would actually work.
And the amazing thing is that almost everyone I discuss this with, whether they are liberal or conservative, agree. It’s probably the only thing that everyone wants that we can’t even vote about.
Who knows. maybe this is the issue that will bring us all together, at least long enough to get something done.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
Andrea, Shanti, anyone at the ajc
How about something about the flat tax?
Want to get people on both sides equally riled at Washington?
Flat Tax. Help us out, here.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
Snidely Butright
So you compare 1940s NAZI Germany with the current US.
I see.
Is it just a matter of lack of education or just slobbering hatred?
By chuck
December 19, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this
NetB, I’m a little disappointed in you. You don’t usually go off on these diatribes:
It is the fundamentalist christians who believe that any christian who does not belong to their fundamentalist sect/denomination are not, in fact, christians. I’m not condeming christianity nor do I have an issue with christianity…I have an issue with christian fundamentalists the same as I have an issue with muslim fundamentalists who fly planes into buildings.
First, I don’t know a single person that that description would fit. The terms “fundamentalist” and “fundamentalism” almost sound like profanity in your posts. The definition of the terms:
You stated that FUNDAMENTALIST Christians: “believe that any christian who does not belong to their fundamentalist sect/denomination are not, in fact, christians.” This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!!! Our little “FUNDAMENTALIST SECT” called the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest deniomination in America with over 16 million members. We don’t believe that at all. The only thing necessary for one to be a Christian is that he/she accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. That is the BIBLICAL definition of a Christian so it is our definition of a Christian as well. While I am sure that there are some small little groups out there who believe the way you described, it is certainly nowhere close to the majority of evangelicals. My guess would be WAY LESS than 1%.
Now I will say for certain that NOT ALL BAPTISTS are Christians. Belonging to a church is not the same thing as belonging to Christ. Do I believe that non-Christians are going to hell? Yes I do. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Do I disagree with other denominations over DOCTRINAL issues? Yes I do. The Bible teaches baptism by EMERSION for instance. Does that mean that a fellow believer who has not been baptized is going to HELL? No it doesn’t. I do however believe that a believer must be baptized by emersion to be obedient to the Lord’s command. The Bible teaches that JESUS is our advocate with the Father. We can go directly to His throne because as believers, He is our Father. We don’t have to go through a priest or preacher. That would put us at odds with the Catholics. Does that mean I think they are going to hell? NOT IF they have accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord. They are EVERY BIT AS CHRISTIAN as I am or as Billy Graham for that matter.
As Christians we may disagree on a variety of issues. The Bible should be the final arbiter, but many denominations want to water it down to fit today’s politically correct environment. A watered down doctrine may make them more popular with the masses, but it won’t win the lost (though they may pick up some “church members”).
By Jack
December 19, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this
Ha! You think anyone in office now would change the tax system? That would take gonads. It may happen when donkeys fly.
By Perspectives
December 19, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this
Bishop Carlton Pearson had an epiphany when he realized that the oppressed, starving, fly-covered children in Africa were already IN “Hell,” and would likely not be “going there” when they die for not being church-going Christians. He listened to a bigger voice that spoke to his heart, and as a result, was drummed out of his church and labeled a heretic. Power always tries to crush a challenger.
Read up on Carlton Pearson sometime for an interesting perspective.
By El Ciego
December 19, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
TOJ…If you mention the Jews or the Nazis one more time, I think that I am going to loose my mind. That is your only mode of reference, and you have beaten that horse to death. After it died, you resurrected it, and beat it again to death.
By Linda
December 19, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this
Well, it’s been fun discussing the “war on Christmas” with all of you, but it’s time for me to log off and make preparations for my own Christmas celebration. For all you Methodists out there, it’s Wednesday, and you know what that means—choir rehearsal night; I have cookies to bake for tonight’s party, music to rehearse, and I have the rest of the month off to enjoy the rest of the holiday season.
For the Christians: enjoy the rest of the season of Advent, have a lovely Christmastide, and a blessed Epiphany.
For the “war on Christmas” crowd: since you don’t like the phrase “Happy Holidays,” I’m assuming you only celebrate Christmas Day and New Year’s Day, instead of observing the whole season, beginning with Advent. So to you, I wish you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. (I’ll be back in the Spring to refute your claims that there’s a “war on Easter.”)
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
El Ciego
Ah, you noticed.
Nah. I’m going to bring it up every time I see a modern parallel. I see that parallel every time many people refer to Christians.
There are many such tragedies in recorded history where civilized countries became obsessed with some popular trend to discriminate against a particular race or religion. Kosovo came very close to being another holocaust, but the US (under Bill Clinton … good for him) stepped in and stopped it.
A lot of people, including many who claim to be Christians seem to want to dictate what a real Christian is or should be.
That seems a little crazy and close minded to me.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
Correction: In my 9:04 post, change Methodist Creed to Apostle’s Creed, with the exception of the phrase, “one holy Catholic church.”
By w00t
December 19, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
So you compare 1940s NAZI Germany with the current US.
I see.
Is it just a matter of lack of education or just slobbering hatred?
So when you compare modern-day progressives to the Nazis, is that a result of your obvious lack of education and critical thinking abilities, or is it just slobbering hatred?
By lozen
December 19, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this
There’s always the possibility that someone will be persecuted due to their religion. It has happened over and over. There’s always the possibility we’ll be persecuted due to our skin color. It happens and has happened over and over and over. There’s the possibility of being persecuted because of our gender. It happens. Some are persecuted because of their sexual preference; it’s happening. It’s all been done over and over and over in the past. Why worry about just christians? Some of my american ancestors were murdered due to their skin color, their culture, and because whites wanted their land. Some of my european ancestors were murdered because they refused to give up their old religion for christianity… and of course the church wanted their land. Some of my ancestors were force fed, tied down, choked, and abused because they were women fighting for their rights - they wanted the vote. It has never stopped. There’s always somebody to scapegoat and turn into the enemy so we’ll direct our anger and fear toward that group. It’s happening now. I have wonderful neighbors who just happen to be muslim. When one of my relatives heard that, she said, “Oh, no. Aren’t you scared? That’s really scary. What are you doing living there with those people? And they’re heathen infidels! That place could be hit by a tornado or something. God knows what’s going on there.” The fact is, she scares me a lot more than my muslim neighbors ever could because she’s an uneducated, christian fundy who thinks everybody in the world except the people in her church are sinners and god’s is going to punish them eternally in hell fire after he gets them here with a bomb or a tornado or something! It is the fundamentalists who have outraged intelligent people. It’s not christianity for most ppl; it is the fundies just as Netbanker (who is one of the smartest and most reasonable people on this blog) said yesterday.
By lozen
December 19, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this
Monica, before you go: the institution where I work, (it is huge), offers same-sex partner insurance benefits. The more progressive companies do.
By w00t
December 19, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Monica,
Just for clarification, it’s not “one holy Catholic (and apostolic) church” it’s “one holy catholic and apostolic church”. In this usage, the word catholic does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church, it means “universal”. For example, when one says one has “catholic tastes” it means your tastes are very broad, or universal.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this
Monica
You sound like you would be a good teacher.
Little story:
I live near the old civil war Battle of Atlanta around Moreland Ave. You sound educated so I don’t need to explain the importance of that battle, not only for the city, but for the overall victory of the North.
A couple of years ago, a buddy of mine bought a metal detector to see if we could find some old bullets, belt buckles, etc. (The problem we found was that you have to actually dig up all that crap.)
We were scanning the playground of a high school that is literally a few hundred feet from the actual Bald hill where Sherman set his cannons and shelled downtown Atlanta. There had to be scores of men that died right there on the property of that school.
We were approached by several students and we were asked what we were doing. They were seniors and had no idea that there had ever been any sort of battle right there or anywhere else in Atlanta. Anywhere else in the entire country, the name of the school would be Memorial High School or Battlefield High but here, in this historical void, people about to graduate from high school didn’t know that there had been a major civil war battle that happened to have happened on their own playground.
Monica, what the hell are they teaching these kids?
During the 12 years of these kid’s education, how hard would it have been for a teacher, any teacher to simply say:
OK, today I am going to show you a battlefield where one of the most decisive and bloody battles of the American Civil War took place.
Please, everyone step over to the window.
By El Ciego
December 19, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this
I have wonderful neighbors who just happen to be muslim.
she scares me a lot more than my muslim neighbors ever could because she’s an uneducated, christian fundy
There is a public face, and a private face. You really never get to know the person because they continue to put on their public face. Do really know how nice your neighbors are? No.
Do people really know, outside of your family, how you say your relative is? Probably not.
The internet has made it where we can actually see how people really are because they can hide behind a guise of anonymity, and remove their public face.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
Iozen
Why worry about just christians?
Because trends that really end up in massive tragedies start as acceptable in popular culture.
Being anti gay or bigoted against groups of people because of the color of their skin is not popular, except of course unless it is white people and as we all know, we deserve the discrimination, anyway.
But being anti-Semantic and then anti-Christian is becoming very popular. As I have asked, if anyone visits many of the pro-Islam, anti-Israel forums such as islamaphobia on Delphi, you will see that many progressives openly profess, while not hating Jews, but that Jews should not be allowed to govern themselves. Of course that is the same excuse that created the Polish Ghettos.
Just read what I have been presented over the last three days as to the horrible things that Christians have done down through history, so modern Christians deserve the discrimination and persecution.
These are not trends that do not bring bad stigmas to the people practicing the discrimination.
And I hope that you weren’t saying that since some people discriminate, all people should feel OK about doing it themselves.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this
Uneducated Christians Fundies.
Wow. Almost every fundamentalist Christians I know have muliple degrees. My brother-in-law has a Doctorate of Education. My sister, a Master’s degrees from two Universities in two different fields.
There are a few kids that attend mom’s church that aren’t going to college but I’m sure a much higher percentage go to college from that church than the general public.
Statements like this are exactly the kind of politically correct hatred that is being leveled at Christians by people who claim to be open minded and “progressive”.
How many of YOUR posts are going to prove my point for me?
By Inigo Montoya
December 19, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this
you will see that many progressives openly profess, while not hating Jews, but that Jews should not be allowed to govern themselves.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
w00t, Thanks for the clarification. Duh, I knew that! I was just thinking in denomination mode - shows my narrow little mind.
TOJ, if it’s not on the End of Course Test, it’s not important! Sad, but true.
By percy
December 19, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this
Ain’t we lucky, yall? I just thought it: that here, right here, on this very website, we got us “The Expert”. He ain’t a teacher but he shore knows what teachers in ever school should be a teachin. He don’t go to church but boy watch him whip out that cape and defend them pore christians from them nazi folks all over the US of A. He knows better than the city council or the neighborhood group, or anybody what belongs and don’t belong in the hood. He knows kids ain’t permitted to pray in school (ain’t no never mind what all the teachers are a sayin), and he knows pertty soon christians are gonna have to hide to pray. This here is one smart feller. Course he is so sarcastic toward everbody that don’t think like he does, and nasty bout everthing he don’t like on here, it’s kinda hard to like him. But we better be thankin’ our lucky stars; we got us a smarta-s, oops, a smart one on this here website.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
Monica
Thanks for the offer, but one of my kids just took a job in Minnesota and the other is an 18 year old that lives with her mother.
But don’t worry, when I go home to visit my family next week, I will be in church more than I could ever want to be in church.
By Andy's fan club
December 19, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this
Andy’s blood sugar is low. He needs some lunch, his meds, and a nice nap. Go wash your hands now, Andy!
By ???!!!
December 19, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this
Statements like this are exactly the kind of politically correct hatred that is being leveled at Christians by people who claim to be open minded and “progressive”.
I’m pretty sure the statement was directed towards *fundamentalist Christians, not Christians in general.
But then, the real problem is that fundamentalists think that they are the only REAL Christians, isn’t that right? So when fundamentalist would-be-theocrats are criticized for trying to write their fundamentalist screed into law, it’s not theocracy and fundamentalism that are under attack, it’s Christianity as a whole.
Reality is not your strong point, is it.
By JokesOn
December 19, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this
Nah. I’m going to bring it up every time I see a modern parallel.
I could list many similarities between my butt hole and TOJs mouth, but that does not make them one and the same.
Oops, bad example.
By lozen
December 19, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
So the teachers at your neighborhood school are stupid because the students don’t know something you think they should know? Is that right? Well, every teacher I know has multiple degrees and goes back to school every summer. It’s statements like these and people like you that have ruined education in this country by teaching kids to disrespect their teachers. How many of YOUR posts are going to tell us what an egotistical jerk you are?
By Honested
December 19, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this
Three days of this and the truth remains.
There is no war against the superstitions of judeo-christian mythology.
Instead, if anything, there is a war against free thought. The “war” idea I guess comes from the notion that the natural evolution of societal norms no longer force individuals to adhere to the dogma of the past. So unable to command blind allegience to the farce, the religio-fascists (of all stripes) declare war!
Oh well, Happy Saturnia (it was probably first and is probably as important).
Honested
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this
lozen
Hit a nerve?
Sorry that giving my opinion makes you so angry.
Liberal tolerance … wow, it is a myth, isn’t it?
By censored posts
December 19, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this
tried to post info three times. There was no abusive language, no profanity, no slurs…just information and opinion. The third attempt was ONLY links to web info, no text. For some reason the W2W censors have decided that you don’t need to know of the link between…er…the president’s “policies” and those of a certain political group from europe. Maybe fourth time’s a charm.
just google “enhanced interrogation” and choose the Andrew Sullivan item.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this
I could list many similarities between my butt hole and TOJs mouth, but that does not make them one and the same.
I see that JokesOn has added more liberal tolerance to the discussion. This is the best he has been able to do all week, but oddly enough, I’m sure no one will say that he is being a jerk.
Oh yea, I forgot. He’s a liberal. How can a liberal be a jerk.
Silly me.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this
???!!!
You have no clue. It’s none of your damned business whether they are “fundies” or “Progressive”. That’s what freedom of religion is all about.
They have the right to worship how ever they want to worship.
By JokesOn
December 19, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this
I see that JokesOn has added more liberal tolerance to the discussion. This is the best he has been able to do all week, but oddly enough, I’m sure no one will say that he is being a jerk.
Oh yea, I forgot. He’s a liberal. How can a liberal be a jerk.
*Silly me. *
Funny that you are wrong in every sentence but the last.
By percy
December 19, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this
Hey yall I think I done figured it out. This here smart guy is a listenin to that Hagee guy. You know. That preacher on the t.v. that looks kinda like a big fat pig and thinks the jews should control everthing over there in the area where they took all that land away from the people who’d been a livin there before them? God says Go ahead. Crush the homes of them other folks. You are MY chosen people! Everthing yall do is A-OK cause you are chosen.
By NetBanker
December 19, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
My understanding is that currently, a person with health insurance cannot add his or her partner of the same sex to the policy. Is this correct? This depends on the employer and the insurance company. I am able to have my same sex partner covered which works well because he owns a small business and the cost of coverage is prohibitively expensive. Although I am able to add him the portion of the premiums that the company pays is taxable income for me, but not for heterosexual married couples.
Gay people who are lucky enough to be able to provide insurance for their partners receive a tax penalty for ensuring that their partner won’t become a burden on the taxpayers. We’re actually thinking about seeing if my partner would qualify for Medicaid due to his reported income from the business so we can move the burden of his healthcare to the taxpayers. While I’d prefer to handle this independently and without a tax penalty I’m legally prohibited from doing so and we might as well stick it to the “Chucks” of the world who want to perpetuate the inequality by making them pay for his healthcare.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this
Inigo Montoya
(progressives) You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does.
Let’s just say that I am absolutely certain, that once you read their posts you will see that they will be voting for the same political party that most people that claim to be progressives on this forum will be voting for.
I would suggest you head on over to Islamiphobia on Delphi and check it out. You will need to join, but it’s not a big deal.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
JokesOn
You’ve shown your ignorant rear end enough.
Run along
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 19, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
Liberal tolerance … wow, it is a myth, isn’t it?
Other Jack,
Can you tell me, specifically, what was intolerant about lozen’s response to you? As far as I can tell, she was merely responding to a post you made about the perceived inadequacy of teachers. Was she being “intolerant” by not agreeing with you? Is that what you think tolerance is? Or were you just looking for an excuse to use a rather predictable right-wing canard whenever possible?
And honestly, given the sheer number of attacks you have made on anyone and everyone who dares to disagree with you or suggests that they believe differently than you, I would think that you would be mortified to even DREAM about criticizing ANYONE for his or her lack of tolerance.
Physician, heal thyself.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
percy
jews should control everthing over there in the area where they took all that land away from the people who’d been a livin there before them?
BINGO. The perfect example of an Islamaphobia poster. Does he sound like a conservative to anyone?
But to address percy, I’m enough of a percentage of Native American to actually qualify as full blooded Creek.
Since “first come first serve” is your ignorant little standard for who gets to stay: when can I expect the deed from your house? You need to get the hell off my land.
By NetBanker
December 19, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
You stated that FUNDAMENTALIST Christians: “believe that any christian who does not belong to their fundamentalist sect/denomination are not, in fact, christians.” This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!!! Well then you’ve not met my friend Scotty’s snake handling, fundamentalist Christian pastor father who makes it quite clear that if you don’t belong to their brand of Christianity then you “ain’t a real Christian.” And what about some of Randy’s posts about The Truth and True Christians. Chuck…there are most certainly groups that identify themselves as Christian Fundamentalists who argue that others are not True Christians and therefore will burn in hell along with all the non-believers.
By Inigo Montoya
December 19, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
Let’s just say that I am absolutely certain, that once you read their posts you will see that they will be voting for the same political party that most people that claim to be progressives on this forum will be voting for.
And I suspect that if you visit various websites where Neo-Nazis and Klan members are posting, you will find that they are voting for the same political party that YOU will not doubt be voting for. Do you think that means they accurately represent the philosophies of that party?
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
NetBaker
While I’d prefer to handle this independently and without a tax penalty I’m legally prohibited from doing so and we might as well stick it to the “Chucks” of the world who want to perpetuate the inequality by making them pay for his healthcare.
Do you think you could also get gay people to pay for my housing? It’s a hell of a burden every month.
It’s only fair. Chuck buys gay health insurance and gays buy my housing.
Cool?
By lozen
December 19, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this
TOJ, Oh yeah. You’ve been hysterical all week about some kind of war that doesn’t exist for most people … Hit a nerve? No matter how many times people on here tell you it’s not religion, it’s stupid fundy religion they’re talking about you just keep raving and ranting. Sorry that giving other opinions makes you so angry. Liberal tolerance … wow, it is a myth, isn’t it? I think everyone on here who would call themselves a liberal has put up with your bloated self image ever since the first day you started in telling us how smart you are and how well thought out all your opinions are and how dumb we all are. People have tried to respond to you respectfully and actually debate with you while you can only ridicule what people say and believe and make snide comments. You are becoming tiresome. You are a jerk!
By jhpoke
December 19, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
The war on Christmas is very similar to the family values jargon. It is really difficult to find someone who is against family values. It is really difficult to find someone who doesn’t enjoy the tidings of the Christmas season. The only people I have found against Christmas are christians that believe the holiday has been perverted by commercialism and refuse to participate.
By lozen
December 19, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this
Well, I did call him an egotistical jerk. And he is.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 19, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Well, I did call him an egotistical jerk. And he is.
Well, there you go - it’s a definition problem. Tolerance doesn’t require that people LIKE each other. Some people just don’t know the real definitions of words.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
Inigo Montoya,
Justa wanted to let you know that I am a huge fan! You star in my favorite all-time movie!
By lozen
December 19, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this
Do you think you could also get gay people to pay for my housing? It’s a hell of a burden every month. It’s only fair. Chuck buys gay health insurance and gays buy my housing. No, no, no ignorant! Chuck buys human health insurance! A-shole. I don’t care what your political or religious affiliation is. You are an a—hole.
By Newzwyre
December 19, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this
fun, fluffy, amusing website -
http://www.totallynotcrazy.com/2007/12/i-have-needs-of-much-wealthier-more.html
excerpt:
Yesterday I was standing in the check-out line at the supermarket, and between furtive glances at Soap Digest magazine (too embarrassed to buy, too intrigued to look away) I had an epiphany: I plum don’t like fraternizing with lower- or middle-class people.
Obviously I’m somewhere between lower- and middle-class myself, on a good day. But other people of this sort really get on my nerves, whether they’re huddling around one another for warmth in the freezer aisle or organizing a rodent hunt.
I’m not like that guy who wants to own a mansion and yacht and have powerful friends who do his bidding for him. More and more, I’m appalled that I don’t already have such “luxuries,” and I consider this to reflect poorly on my state and municipal governments for letting me fall to such a level of poverty/non-filthy-rich-ness.
[snip]
There you have it. My logic is bullet-proof, but oddly enough my car is not. Quite simply, I think I have a lot of angry rich-person’s havoc I could contribute/wreak on lots of things—on the environment, on my enemies, on well-meaning charities that annoy me—but circumstances is keeping me down.
And that is the greatest crime of the century, as far as I’m concerned.
By chuck
December 19, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
By saying “FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS” you implied ALL Fundamentalist Christians, it implies ALL Fundamentalist Christians which includes almost all Evangelical Christians which includes Southern Baptists which includes ME. Had you said a “few” or a “small minority of” I would not have had an issue with it. You seem to be getting less moderate and more “militant gay” with your posts lately. That has never been your M.O. in the past. I’m just wondering what changed.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this
jhpoke
The only people I have found against Christmas are christians that believe the holiday has been perverted by commercialism and refuse to participate.
Those damned Christians, again. It’s always those damned Christians.
Wouldn’t the world just be so much better without them?
Somebody get a rope.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 19, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this
Those damned Christians, again. It’s always those damned Christians.
Wouldn’t the world just be so much better without them?
Somebody get a rope.
Honestly, you need to study your set theory…obviously this statement didn’t include all Christians, but was directed at a specific group of Christians. And frankly, it wasn’t even a negative statement - he just said that there were some Christians who feel that Christmas is too commercial and refuse to celebrate it because of that. How in the world do you take offense at that? How is that insulting?
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
iozen
You have every right to single out Christianity. You also have a right to judge them for not believing in the side of Christianity that you approve of.
I personally don’t think it is any of your or anyone else’s business what they believe as long as they leave you alone. But you seem to think differently.
Someone posted the definition of Fundamentalist. It simply means that you believe in the fundamentals of a religion.
You and everyone else seem to revel in judging Christians for following the teachings of Christianity.
Someone offered that they belong to a group of Progressive Christians. Do those Christians pass your standard? They are Democrats and liberals. Are they good Christians or bad Christians?
Several years ago a group of very progressive Christians were helping the poor and giving many disenfranchised people a meaning for their life and a place where they were loved.
This group of people were so progressive that they dreamed of building a Utopian Socialist state where all people were equal. It was Christianity gone very progressive. They almost did it.
They were from the San Fransisco area. Do you remember them?
By lovelyliz
December 19, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
Is that where they were keeping the torture tapes, oil baron/energy task force visitor logs, etc.????
My mother grew up in a very Christian neighborhood in a big city up North. When she was a child almost every house had among their outside holiday decorations a nativity scene and the Madonna & child. Mom and her siblings would go downtown to look at the window displays that were festive with lots of green & red decorations, snowscape & Santa Clauses, locomotives, but surprisingly enough, no crèche/nativity scene and no one complaining about the war on Christmas because they didn’t see what wasn’t there.
They understood that the purpose of the retailers was to sell stuff. No more and no less.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this
Chuck
Man, they are saying what they are told is OK to say.
It’s OK to hate fundies. Read some liberal blogs. They will tell you who is politically correct to hate.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this
an 18 year old who lives with her mother
Is that the source of your anger, TOJ? I never thought the day would come here on W2W, but you’re starting to make me look good by comparison, buddy. I guess I’ll have to hand the torch off to you as the resident nutcase. Don’t be too quick to dis JokesOn, though, he speaks the truth. BTW, your incrementalism link of anti-Semitism and anti-Christianity would make more sense if it weren’t for the fact that a large percentage of the anti-Semitism in the world comes from so-called Christians. Ask chuck about that.
Speaking of chuck, you forgot to list adultery among my attributes. The scary part about your list is that those are my good points.
lozen—I withdraw my request for forgiveness. I was a jerk on purpose, so will have to remain among the unforgiven.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this
TOJ,
I did go to the Goebbels website. While I do see some similarities in the lines of thinking, you also have to consider two major differences that I think would prevent another Holocaust:
First, the government structure of the United States is different than Germany’s 1930’s. We have a good checks and balances system with a House and Senate. One person cannot declare a book burning or a ban on anything without getting the approval of over 500 people (how many people are currently in the House? The number 453 sticks in my head).
Secondly, our nation as a whole is much more educated than the German population of the 1930’s. We’re much more critical too.
I don’t think that the hysteria you have displayed is warranted. A little conern, perhaps, but not of Chicken Little proportions.
In any event, I hope you have a great Christmas and enjoy your time with your mother. I am enjoying this time of year with my little ones - they are 6 and 4, and are counting the days until Santa’s visit!
By Archie
December 19, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this
I could list many similarities between my butt hole and TOJs mouth, but that does not make them one and the same.
Good post.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this
you need to study your set theiry
Wow, f(x)=36x^2, you’re speaking my language!! I remember when “New Math” was introduced, and the teachers made a half-hearted attempt in introducing set theory and Boolean Logic, but no tie in was ever made to “real world” thinking. To me, the goal of a math education shouldn’t be the ability to perform rote calculations, but to understand how our own brains work.
Per the discussion this week, I think the key math concept is that of “Mathematical Equivalence”, as exemplified by Euler’s discovery that e^ix = cos x + i sin x. If chuck could understand that relationship, he might understand that all religions are essentially “Mathematically Equivalent” since each and every one of them provides allegorical answers to unanswerable questions. Of course, he would have to first understand the difference between fact and fiction, which he doesn’t.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
Bruno
Nice try, but that’s none of your business.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this
Hey, Archie! Great post yesterday afternoon. Hope you and your wife have a relaxing holliday.
By Jack
December 19, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this
Gay bashing now? Isn’t that just as bad as bashing someone for their religion? God doesn’t like bashing of any kind. Now go to your room. No milk and cookies for you.
By Dread Pirate Roberts aka AGFNPR
December 19, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this
OK - it is Wednesday and we are never gonna agree as to whether the war on Christmas is real or perceived. Each of us looks after our own best self-interests. Liberals are overly sensitive to liberal causes and conservatives are overly sensitive to conservative causes. But each group has its own set of hypocracies.
For instance, if I were to tell my liberal bretheren that there is currently a government agency that can come on your property with no search warrant and can forcibly remove the gate to your property so that they can perform a search, I am sure that I could have your support in righting this wrong, yes?
That is of course until I tell you the government agent is a game warden. Then of course you will have all kind of excuses as to why these men SHOULD be able to search your property without just cause and without a search warrant. Because after all those darn knuckle-draggin, repug votin, 4th grade edjucated neocons shouldn’t have the right to hunt on their own land in the first place. And if the game warden is there, these men surely ARE guilty of something, so the illegal search and seizure is OK. Heck, they shouldn’t even be able to own a gun!
I am gone for the day, but I can’t wait to read the responses to this post!
If I don’t blog again - have a Merry Christmas all!
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this
Monica, excellent points about the dissimilarities between Nazi Germany and the US. To add to your list, I think it’s also important to understand the political climate in post WWI Germany. Due to the harsh economic sanctions placed on Germany by the other Europeans following WWI, inflation spiraled out of control and people were having a hrd time feeding themselves. As such, Hitler’s extreme of nationalism was appealing to many. Though those on the left side of the aisle here in the US decry our own brand of nationalism, there is no comparison IMO.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 19, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this
Monica, I must say I’ve lost a little respect for you. You think a little concern is warranted in regards to a Holocaust-like crusade against Christianity? In a nation where 80% of the population is Christian and virtually every member of the various governing bodies across the country is Christian? You honestly think there is some small chance that Christians will be rounded up and executed?
Other Jack - your bitter “it’s politically correct to hate fundamentalists” would be more meaningful if it weren’t for the venom and hatred you’ve shown towards so many people and so many groups on this blog. Do you honestly think anyone can muster up the slightest iota of sympathy for a man who does nothing but attack and vilify others who believe differently from him?
And just for the record, I don’t hate fundamentalists. I despise the movement by many fundamentalists to enshrine their particular religious views into law. I do my best not to hate anyone. See, I AM a Christian, though as an Episcopalean, I’m sure that you would declare that makes me “not a real Christian”. I’m pretty sure that Christ suggested that loving our neighbor was important, and my neighbors include both conservatives and liberals, Christians, non-Christians and atheists, Republicans and Democrats, Gays and Straights, Native born citizens and immigrants, etc. etc. etc.
I work very hard not to hate anyone.
By Blog Historian
December 19, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this
I seem to remember a discussion a while back where Catholicism came up. I distinctly remember Chuck claiming that Catholics “weren’t really Christian”.
Now…doesn’t that make his righteous indignation about being lumped into Net’s statement ring a little hollow?
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
Monica
Very cool. I’m glad you went over there. It is amazing how interesting that site is if you read it with the historical context in mind.
We actually aren’t nearly as educated as Germany was in 1930. We are a tremendous amount more media savvy. When you get a chance, read about his views on Propaganda. He got away with a lot that just wouldn’t fly nowadays.
His views on politics and political campaigning will make you think that the heads of the DNC AND the RNC both memorized his speeches.
No one is crying Chicken-little. I don’t think there will be a Christian holocaust in my lifetime, but it does bother me that this trend about taking religion out of everything is so pervasive. The Constitution does not insist on seperation of Church and State. It simply doesn’t.
I understand that by incorporating some of the authors other writings, that conclusion could be made by some. But if the constitution is a legal document, the four corners rule has to apply. No other document can be considered outside the four corners of that document.
And I am sure you have noticed the vitriol against Christianity that many have displayed here.
Not a single person ever just said that because Fundamentalist Christians vote against many things they support, they cannot support them. That never came up. (I’m sure it will now)
I p*ss a lot of people off because I try to make them think about what they are saying. I understand most don’t like that. I don’t care. All this makes me think about my own bigotries and ways I can move further away from them.
If I can make a single person here just consider what they are actually saying when they parrot a popular issue, I’m a happy dude.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this
I work very hard not to hate anyone
Which is just a fancy way of saying that you do have plenty of hate in your heart, as do all humans.
My fight against fundamentalists has nothing to do with hate, and everything to do with control I just don’t like anyone telling me what to do, which seems to be the main goal of every fundamentalist movement, whether “Christian” of “Taliban”.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 19, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this
That is of course until I tell you the government agent is a game warden. Then of course you will have all kind of excuses as to why these men SHOULD be able to search your property without just cause and without a search warrant. Because after all those darn knuckle-draggin, repug votin, 4th grade edjucated neocons shouldn’t have the right to hunt on their own land in the first place. And if the game warden is there, these men surely ARE guilty of something, so the illegal search and seizure is OK. Heck, they shouldn’t even be able to own a gun
Sorry to disappoint you, but as a liberal I do not support ANY illegal searches-and-seizures. You, like “Other Jack” seem to operate on what you imagine you know about liberals, rather than what is actually true.
Well, on that note, I’m off for the rest of the day as well.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
AGFNPR—If your point is that all people are hypocritical in their personal application of high-flown principles, you’re absolutely right. To wit, “All politics is local.”
By chuck
December 19, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
Blog Hysterian. Please give the title of the article in which “I” made that post and the approximate date/time of the post.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this
Bruno
LOL
So why are my statements bitter? And have I ever said that anyone was not a real Christian?
If you and others did not work so hard to put words in my mouth that I never said, you might actually read something you just might agree with.
I appreciate the small sermon about your neighbors that are both liberal and conservative. Surprisingly enough, I not only live on the same planet, but I live where there are almost no conservatives. In the last three weeks I have been visited by 5 different democratic fund raisers.
I will just about promise that is more people comning to my door over two weeks than anyone could claim that Christians came to their door. And I was nice to even number 5.
I need to get ready for poker tonight. I’ll be the only conservative there.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
BTW, lozen, the answer to my rock trivia question “What female artist is immortalized in the LZ song, ‘Going to California’” is Joni Mitchell, who is the actual songwriter of the song “Woodstock”. Because the CSN version was much more popular, a lot of people mistakenly think they wrote it.
“And we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden”
Thanks again for the Judy Collins reference. I stayed up all night playing 60s/early 70 music. CSN, Grand Funk Railroad, The Guess Who, Three Dog Night, Country Joe and the Fish, Joan Baez, Arlo Guthrie, Donovan, etc. I guess I’m a little prejudiced, but I think the music from the 80s and 90s sucks by comparison.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
chuck—Why don’t we forget about blog history, and jsut come clean about our views. What is your “Christian” position regarding:
A. Jews
B. Catholics
C. Jehovah’s Witnesses
D. Seventh-Day Adventists
Lay it on us, Mr. Christianity.
By Monica
December 19, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
FX, tone, my friend, tone! Notice that the word “perhaps” followed my phrase “a little concern.” I don’t think that a Christian Holocaust will occur any more than you do. Do I think it’s possible? Well, anything is possible. Imagine the ridicule that someone from early 20th Century Georiga would receive for predicting that a black man would be the frontrunner for the Democratic Presidential nomination one day!
By Snidely Butright
December 19, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this
I personally don’t think it is any of your or anyone else’s business what they believe as long as they leave you alone
Isn’t that exactly the problem most people have with certain Christians? That tendancy among those politically active Christian groups NOT to leave others alone? To try and codify their religious beliefs into law? They push laws to keep gays from having the same right to marry the one they love as straights. They push laws to ban certain activities they find immoral (like criminalizing “adult toy” sales parties in private homes). They fight like the dickens to keep family planning clinics from providing comprehensive contraceptive services lest it “encourage” girls to sleep around. They insist that everyone should accept their icons in the courthouse and statehouse but get to gasping and clutching at pearls with the idea of any OTHER group getting the same treatment.
From what I’ve seen and heard, that’s exactly the problem.
If you are one of those Believers who leave people alone, then obviously you aren’t the type of Christian that people are “against”.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this
a black man would be the frontrunner in the Democratic Presidential Nomination one day
Don’t be fooled by the polls, Monica. The big money is behind Hillary, not Obama. He doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in heck to win. If you recall, according to Repug polls several years back, Colin Powell would have won the Presidential nomination if he had chosen to run. Alan Keyes still gets a lot of support on the right as well.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this
Good post, Snidely Butrite. Don’t forget the ever-annoying challenges to friends and acquaintences “Are you saved?”
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
Snidely Butright
I’ve had 5 people in the past two weeks that have been to my door to solicit money for the democratic party.
Can we outlaw the democratic party?
By jack
December 19, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this
How about the crusades back in the middle ages? I believe the Christians killed quite a few non- believers did they not?
By Breaking News
December 19, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this
Exciting news on the AJC website: A guy, and not a girl, won the chance at love with Tila Tequila in the new bisexual dating game on VH1 “Shot at Love”. LMAO. Glad to see the AJC is doing their best to keep the credibility of the news media high.
“It’s all entertainment”. So true.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this
Bruno
It’s hard to believe that the party of Robert Byrd and George Wallace would put a Black man in the white house.
Clinton had plenty of Black people serving in the white house. They served breakfast, they served lunch, they served dinner.
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this
Jack
How about the reign of Gengus Khan. Most people say he slaughtered hundreds of thousands and he was a Buddest.
Somebody get a rope.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
to my door soliciting money for the DNC
You need to move to my neighborhood, TOJ. Nobody solicits around here. They’re more likely to get robbed than to receive a donation. ; > }
Without putting you on the spot too much, what kind of stakes do you play poker for? I’m thinking about moving up a level to the $500 buy-in tournaments.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this
Ghengis Khan was a Buddhist?? I’ll have to check, but that’s not my understanding at all. I believe he was part of a “tribe”—i.e. the Mongols—who didn’t profess any faith in the organized religions of the day. According to the time frame I understand, Buddhism was still contained to India at that time, and hadn’t even made it over to China yet.
In fact, if you recall, the seige of Rome by the Mongols was only halted due to the death of Khan back home, so the hordes returned to Central Asia to vote for a new leader, sparing Rome.
If I’m off on my facts, please feel free to jump in with a correction.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
OOps—I’m way off with the timeline. I guess I was confusing some of the facts about Alexander the Great with the Khans, who lived in the Middle Ages.
By Lee
December 19, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this
It is disturbing that there is still so much hate around Christmas. Remember that Herod hated Jesus so much, he killed all the boys in Bethlehem in order to try to kill Christ as well during the first Christmas. Such anger and intolerance around the Christian birth is still sad. Real Christians enjoy Christmas themselves and in their hearts. They also love their brother secular humanists, atheists, right wing nut cases, false prophets and even liberals. Even when they offend us (and they often do), we turn the other cheek and forgive them of their foolishness. Christmas is not a public creche display or expensive gifts or city decorations. These are merely the dross of the world, and external displays of love are meaningless compared to what people have (or don’t have) in their heart. Leave the hate and the anger and the noise and the arguments and the squabbling all outside. This year, don’t worry about what other people do or don’t do. Just remember St. Augustine: “Ama Deum, et pende laxe” (“Love God, and hang loose.”)
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this
Bruno
Oh the poker stakes are nothing. Last week I lost almost ten bucks. LOL My greatest winnings were around 30.
Great times, good people who are very close whom I depend on and they depend on me.
Khan?
I don’t know. Seems like a read that he was Buddest, but I’m not sure when Buddism moved from India to China.
Needless to say, my point was that he sure wasn’t a Christian.
Several have said the same thing about Christians and the crusades, but that is just nonsense. For one thing, other than the first crusade, they were mutual combat where the Europeans got their butt whipped several times.
BTW, I’m touchy about my family, not because of problems but because of a lack of problems. I am very, very protective of them.
I have been divorced for a number of years and have dated a really nice woman for a couple of years. My kids, my ex and I get along great and I really miss my son who just got a great job out of state.
By Archie
December 19, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this
Don’t be fooled by the polls, Monica. The big money is behind Hillary, not Obama. He doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in heck to win. If you recall, according to Repug polls several years back, Colin Powell would have won the Presidential nomination if he had chosen to run. Alan Keyes still gets a lot of support on the right as well.
I think you speak the truth Bruno because people will say anything in person but once they close the curtain and vote that’s when you really see the truth. As soon as Colin Powell got close to winning the nomination people in his own party started bringing up all kinds of things against him. Alan Keyes is a joke. Thanks for the compliment earlier Bruno. I think you speak the truth on that issue Bruno and one day I hope that I can say you’re wrong.
By Bruno
December 19, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this
Well, gotta run—literally. I figure life is too short to stay in the gutter for too long, so I’m trying to shape up again.
Best wishes to all.
I’d like to leave chuck with some of my favorite passages from 1 Corinthians:
“Yet I wish all men were like me. However, each man has his own gift from God, one of this kind, another of that kind.”
“Nevertheless, neither is the woman independent of the man, or the man independent of the woman, in the Lord. For as woman comes from man, so a man comes through a woman; but all things are from God.”
“Love is patient and love is kind; love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud….doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth”
“For now, we see in a mirror, dimly, but then, face to face. But now, faith, hope, and love remain. The greatest of these is love.
By B
December 19, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this
Thaks for the shout, Arch. You’re welcome in my home anytime.
By Dixy-qg
December 19, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
http://jijota.com >sex offender be around kids in kansas [url=http://jijota.com]sex offender be around kids in kansas[/url]
By Dixy-qg
December 19, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
http://jijota.com >sex offender be around kids in kansas [url=http://jijota.com]sex offender be around kids in kansas[/url]
By Dixy-qg
December 19, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
http://jijota.com >sex offender be around kids in kansas [url=http://jijota.com]sex offender be around kids in kansas[/url]
By The Other Jack
December 19, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this
Archie
Now that Obama is being attacked by so many democrats, will you put the same standard against the democrats that you put against the Republicans when some of the republican party started working against Powell?
I’ll bet you don’t.
Democrats beat the hell out of Blacks for generations. Every time there is a Democrat is in the White House the economics of the African-American Demographic takes a nose dive. And now they are still beating the hell out of you, but they’re doing it behind closed doors. But somehow they convince you that your enemy is the Republican party.
How do they do that?
By JokesOn
December 19, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this
I personally don’t think it is any of your or anyone else’s business what they believe as long as they leave you alone.
Talk about multiple personality disorder! He rants about not having christian prayer as part of school, that it is an attack on said religion to remove it, but then claims this!
Dog, I think he has reached meltdown…again. I called him on it the first day he posted: He has no purpose or world view himself and is here only to argue. The epitome of a Troll with no life.
Poor jealous fool he is.
By Coolers
December 20, 2007 2:47 AM | Link to this
Yes! i need for good price vigra order online
By chuck
December 20, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
A little history lesson for all the folks. Genghis Khan and the Mongols were probably “Shamanistic” in their religious practices. His son Kublai Khan was very interested in religion. One of the great tragedies in world history occurred when the Christian churches in Italy failed to provide missionaries to China at the Khan’s request. Marco Polo’s father was sent by the Khan to bring 100 missionaries back to teach the Mongols about Christianity. Only one priest would go back to Cathay (China) with them and a great opportunity to evangelize China was lost.
By Archie
December 20, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
TOJ you are a bigot just as that guy last week said you were and secondly your response doesn’t match up with what I posted. I already stated I don’t think Obama will win the nomination and Bruno made a good point about Powell and polls. The point is that people vote differently than the poll numbers. Get it!!! Also I already have applied the same standard to the Democrats thus one of the reasons I agreed with Bruno. Third,JokesOn called you,TOJ, a troll and I am starting to think you’re not who you say you are and since a person is anonymous on the internet they can be anything they want but sooner or later immaturity shows up and you realize that said person is probably a teenager or young person with nothing else to do.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this
chuck—Why don’t we forget about blog history, and jsut come clean about our views. What is your “Christian” position regarding:
As I said previously, denomination/”religion” is not the criteria for being a Christian. The only criteria according to the Bible is whether or not one has a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST as Savior and Lord. People could belong to any of the groups that you mentioned below and be a Christian if they acknowledge Jesus as their personal Savior and Lord. As for the majority of each of these groups I will give you a general belief that I have about them based on relationships I have with members of these groups and also based on personal study of the stated beliefs of these groups.
A. Jews: Most Jews believe that Jesus was not the Messiah and reject Him as Savior and Lord. That would mean that those who have done so are lost and on their way to hell.
B. Catholics: I have many friends and a few family members who are Catholics. I have discussed salvation with all of them and believe them to be born-again Christians. I have met Catholics who have made statements that lead me to believe that they are depending on the fact that they were “born” Catholic to get them to heaven. If I had to guess (because only they know for sure), I would say that there are more Catholics who are not Christians than are Christians.
C. Jehovah’s Witnesses: I used to work with a Jehovah’s Witnesses boss. I attended their church a couple of times and have studied their writings extensively. I believe them to be a cult. While their may be “Witnesses” who are Christians, I would guess their numbers to be very small. Essentially they believe that Jesus is on the same level as themselves and that they are working their way to becoming Gods. To me that is blasphemy. They changed the Bible to read the way that matches their beliefs without regard to the original text
D. Seventh-Day Adventists: Most Adventists believe the same thing about salvation as do mainstream evangelical churches. We have doctrinal differences about minor side issues.
Lay it on us, Mr. Christianity.
Consider it DONE.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this
Archie
What the hell is wrong with you. I didn’t call you a name and was nothing but civil to you.
But then you pull this crap.
Am I really so much smarter than you that all you have to reply with is insults.
Go to hell.
Now, do you get it?
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this
Chuck
Why bother, man.
They are bigots. They will no more accept you or me or anyone who talks against their ignorance any more than you or I could walk into a KKK meeting and talk that bunch of ignorant rednecks into being civil or reasonabl3e.
Bigots are bigots. Some on here are decent people. But the ones like Archie and JokesOn are so wrapped up in their own hate, they can’t see what is right in front of them.
I say, from now on, let them slobber. Let them scream about how jealous we are of them. (I can’t stop laughing at that one) Let them call us names.
Just converse with the ones that at least act like they are educated and civil. There are a couple on here. Not many, but a couple.
By Newzwyre
December 20, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ well, this should get TOJ all stirred up and frothy-lipped ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317550,00.html
The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, dismissed the Christmas story of the Three Wise Men yesterday as nothing but “legend.”
“There was scant evidence for the Magi, and none at all that there were three of them, or that they were kings,” he said. All the evidence that existed was in Matthew’s Gospel. The Archbishop said: “Matthew’s Gospel doesn’t tell us there were three of them, doesn’t tell us they were kings, doesn’t tell us where they came from. It says they are astrologers, wise men, priests from somewhere outside the Roman Empire, that’s all we’re really told.” Anything else was legend.
“It works quite well as legend,” the Archbishop said.
Further, there was no evidence that there were any oxen or asses in the stable. The chances of any snow falling around the stable in Bethlehem were “very unlikely.” And as for the star rising and then standing still: the Archbishop pointed out that stars just don’t behave like that.
Although he believed in it himself, he advised that new Christians need not fear that they had to leap over the “hurdle” of belief in the Virgin Birth before they could be “signed up.” For good measure, he added, Jesus was probably not born in December at all. “Christmas was when it was because it fitted well with the winter festival.”
He said the Christmas cards that show the Virgin Mary cradling baby Jesus, with the shepherds on one side and the Three Wise Men on the other, were guilty of “conflation.”
[snip]
Williams was not saying anything that is not taught as a matter of course in even the most conservative theological colleges. His supporters would argue that it is a sign of a true man of faith that he can hold on to an orthodox faith while permitting honest intellectual scrutiny of fundamental biblical texts.
The Archbishop admitted that the Church’s present difficulties, with the dispute over sexuality taking the Anglican Communion to the brink of schism, were off-putting to outsiders. “They don’t want to know about the inside politics of the Church, they want to know if God’s real, if they can be forgiven, what sort of lifestyles matter more and they want to know, I suppose, if their prayers are heard.”
Williams’s views are strictly in line with orthodox Christian teaching. The Archbishop is sticking to what the Bible actually says.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
Newzwyre
It is good to be known as the great evil here. Considering what I see as accepted as good (screaming and calling people bigots that can’t walk in goose step with the progressive mantra) I am more than proud to be the opposite of such hate and closed mindedness. .
But please take a few minutes and explain why I should care about that story.
If I am so intimidating with what I am saying perhaps you should change your approach and do the intelligent thing and actually start reading what I write instead of making up reasons to hate me.
Don’t you already have enough reasons to hate me. After all, I’m not even a liberal. That’s enough of a reason, isn’t it?
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 20, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this
I’m just curious, Other Jack…did you actuall read chuck’s run-down of jews, catholics, etc., where he not only dismisses just about everyone as “not a real Christian” because they don’t believe like him, but also suggests that all Jews are going to hell, and then try to commiserate with him about OTHER PEOPLE being bigots?
What insane world do you live in? And just for the record, I’m asking because YOU personally seem to be completely unballanced. It has nothing to do with your religion or political views, only the apparent complete lack of perspective that your posts convey.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this
Newzwyre,
Most Christians know that the Christmas Story is kind of an amalgamation of the first 3 years in the life of Jesus. Most Biblical scholars believe that Jesus was between 2-3 year old when the “Magi” arrived.
TOJ, I don’t just post for them. I also post for those who drop in to read but don’t usually post. It’s mainly just to counterbalance the liberal misinformation that is posted here on a regular basis. Also, I love to argue. My Mother used to tell me that I “would argue with a fencepost” when I was younger.
By Newzwyre
December 20, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this
I don’t hate you TOJ. Too much effort involved in hating someone. Nor do I think of you as “the great evil”. Irrational, angry, and far too ready to read insult where none is intended, sure. But evil? Naw.
If anything, I find your ability to take statements completely out of context, find a way to make them mean something insulting to your beliefs, and to work yourself up into a frothing outrage to be mildly amusing.
Nothing personal, old boy. Poking you with a literary stick is just good times.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
f(x) = 36x^2
How is what I wrote BIGOTED?
Jesus said I am the way the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me.
This is the basic tenet of the Christian Faith, accepted by Christians and every major Christian denomination beginning with the Apostles and continuing throughout the history of the church. Any so-called Christian who says that there is “some other way” to get to heaven, is going against the entire history of the church and completely ignoring Scripture.
It is hilarious that you don’t want “Christians” telling you what to believe, but now you won’t even allow US to believe what we believe. I’m sorry, that’s just down right stupid. If we call ourselves Christians but don’t believe or practice the words and teachings of CHRIST, what’s the point?
By Jack
December 20, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this
Somebody get a rope? Naw, I’m too old for skipping rope.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this
So, to sum up, f(x) = 36x^2, it’s OKAY to be a Christian as long as we don’t believe in the basic tenets of our faith and as long as we don’t express those tenets in public. Does that just about cover it?
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 20, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this
At no point did I suggest that you can’t believe what you want to believe. I only suggest that your beliefs make you a bigot. You dismiss Jehovah’s Witnesses as heretical cult members, Catholics as victims of salvation entitlement, and simply write of Jews as going to Hell. I’m sure there are many, many other groups, both religious and non, that you write off with such judgemental and ugly phrases.
I’m sure you want to make this about religion and persecution, chuck, but that’s just not it. The truth is that there are many, many people out there who are ardently faithful to their own religion without being hateful or dismissive towards others. Your posts indicate that you aren’t one of those. It’s obvious that you don’t “like” anyone who isn’t like you, and I suspect that you discriminate in your behaviors towards all those people.
You can call that being true to your religion if you wish - I just call it being a less-than-admirable human being.
By GOB
December 20, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this
They are bigots…Bigots are bigots. posted at 10:13
TOJ - Are you aware that it took you only 20 minutes to post something calling people bigots because they disagree with you, and then go on in your next post to complain about those who call others bigots? Well played sir…
Considering what I see as accepted as good (screaming and calling people bigots that can’t walk in goose step with the progressive mantra) posted at 10:33
By Archie
December 20, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
I have to defend Chuck a little for his 10 am post because as a christian you are taught John 3:16 and he had some of those things. As for Jehovah Witnesses, the ones I know are good people but some of their ways do seem like a cult and I have read about them as well. Chuck has a right to have an opinion of those things he mentioned and I don’t think he is bigoted because his opinion is based on his religious belief not a belief that someone is inferior. I disagree with Chuck politically and I think Chuck does not speak enough about another tenet of christian faith and that is forgiveness. Forgiveness is what you pray for in Lord’s prayer.
By Monica
December 20, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this
Well, the vitrol is getting too thick for me, especially at this time of year. I’m outta here until 2008.
GOB, Chuck, RF, and other teachers who might read: may you have a wonderful break from school. We’re halfway there!
To the rest of the working and non-working world: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Enjoy time with your family and loved ones. Maybe we will have snow this year in Georgia. That’s what I’m asking Santa for. Just one day of snow! :)
By chuck
December 20, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
f(x) = 36x^2
I’m sure you have a hard time understanding this, but I was asked a specific question and I answered it specifically AND HONESTLY. It wasn’t written to be “hateful or dismissive”. It was written to answer a question. Further, if these people “are ardently faithful to their own religion”, then they will have similar beliefs. I don’t know of a single major religion of the world outside of th Asian religions that doesn’t have similar beliefs. Do Jews believe that Muslims are going to hell? The ones who follow the teachings of their faith do? Do Muslims believe that Jews and Christians are going to hell? Yep? The fact that some of these “ardent followers” are afraid to say these things aloud doesn’t mean that they don’t have these beliefs.
As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, would it surprise you to know that they believe only 144,000 people are going to heaven? Oops, that’s what they USED to believe until they increased above that number in membership? They believe that the rest of us are just going to cease to exist.
By JokesOn
December 20, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this
So removing the forced prayer is persecuting christians.
That is the same as saying we christians (although you stated you are not one in any meaningful sense) have the right to dictate how others pray and exhibit their faith. But for christains to remove forced jewish holidays is just plain different.
Just effin beautiful logic you have there. His are the rantings of a child - nothing more.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
GOB
try to actually think beyond your normal capacity and look at the first post that was addressed to me from Archie this morning. Did you say a damned thing to him for calling me a bigot? What, you didn’t see that or did your own ignorance prevent you from seeing it?
Now take your unfairness and your ignorance and put it where the sun don’t shine. I’m tired it.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
Thank you Monica. I wish for you and your little ones a joyous and merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
GOB
Yea, good times for all.
You don’t say a g******* word to a***** like Archie for calling me names and frothing at the mouth or Jokes On for visiting three times yesterday, calling names each and every time.
but I’mm the bad guy, huh.
Take a deep breath while you are kissing my a*.
Any questions?
By chuck
December 20, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
Thank you Archie. I’m not usually asked about forgiveness or I would talk about it more. It is the greatest gift one can receive.
f(x) = 36x^2 OH and it may also surprise you to know that Jehovah’s witnesses are not allowed to have any contact with people INCLUDING FAMILY MEMBERS who leave the “church”.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
By f(x) = 36x^2
And i’m just curious. Have you seen the vitriol and name calling that has been leveled ay chuck and myself over the past few days?
Is it just too much to consider when people who think like you are acting like NAZIs?
Get your head out of your rectum and look at ALL the posts, OK?
By JokesOn
December 20, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
You don’t say a g* word to a like Archie for calling me names and frothing at the mouth or Jokes On for visiting three times yesterday, calling names each and every time.*
Busy working and spending time in fruitful ventures, unlike talking to you. Besides, your the only frothing one here half-wit troll.
but I’m the bad guy, huh.
Hey! Now you got it. Good.
Any questions?
Besides what would you like for your 12th b-day? Nope.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
jokesOn
Was anyone talking to you today or yesterday when you insisted on acting like a spoiled child?
The sad thing about this is that most of the people on here are just as ill-educated, bigoted and ignorant as you. but considering your overt bigotry and ignorance, I’m proud that I am not like anyone here.
Now when I need your input, i’ll be calling on anyone with an IQ in the double digits. When that is called for, raise your hand and then start typing.
Until then, keep pretending you are actually here to discuss issues instead of the real reason: you have your nose up my a**.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 20, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry Chuck, but it’s not hard for me to understand. I realize that you answered honestly, but your answers revealed what kind of person you are - one who judges first based on religions and beliefs, one who is probably not capable of being kind to people of different religions.
What is apparently hard for you to understand - perhaps because you are this kind of person yourself - is that there are lots of people who don’t judge others based on their religion. You obviously do. My personal opinion is that it’s a character flaw. I was raised to respect everyone, regardless of their religious beliefs. You were obviously raised otherwise.
Other Jack - you continue to live in a fantasy world. Every post you have made has been a personal attack on someone. You, sir, are the bigot here.
By Newzwyre
December 20, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
from Drudge -
MEDIA FIREWORKS: MCCAIN PLEADS WITH NY TIMES TO SPIKE STORY
Thu Dec 20 2007 10:56:57 ET
Just weeks away from a possible surprise victory in the primaries, Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz has been waging a ferocious behind the scenes battle with the NEW YORK TIMES, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned, and has hired DC power lawyer Bob Bennett to mount a bold defense against charges of giving special treatment to a lobbyist!
McCain has personally pleaded with NY TIMES editor Bill Keller not to publish the high-impact report involving key telecom legislation before the Senate Commerce Committee, newsroom insiders tell the DRUDGE REPORT.
The paper’s Jim Rutenberg has been leading the investigation and is described as beyond frustrated with McCain’s aggressive and angry efforts to stop any and all publication.
The drama involves a woman lobbyist who may have helped to write key telecom legislation.
The woman in question has retained counsel and strongly denies receiving any special treatment from McCain.
Rutenberg, along with reporter David Kirkpatrick, has been developing the story for the last 6 weeks.
Rutenberg had hoped to break the story before the Christmas holiday, sources reveal, but editor Keller expressed serious reservations about journalism ethics and issuing a damaging story so close to an election.
McCain campaign officials Rick Davis, Charlie Black and Mark Salter are also said to have met with the NEW YORK TIMES in an effort to halt publication.
question:
is it ethical for the NYT to withhold a story about the possible misdeeds of a presidential candidate simply because it’s near election time?
Or should they put the story out there so that the public is aware of the allegations before they vote?
Would we feel differently if it were, say, a Fox News story about a Democratic candidate instead of the Times and a Republican?
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
f(x) = 36x^2
I started to go through and write all the insults and name calling that I have been subjected to this week.
But then I realized how stupid that would be. If you had an ounce of fairness you would have seen that the vitriol is always in response to the same kind of language directed at me.
I would ask you to look at the few times that liberals actually posted a decent and civil post to me. What was my response? I was always respectful and had a few good, civil discussions. And that was amazing with human vermin like Jokes On screaming insults from the sidelines.
Like most issues, you have your small minded ideas that are easily shown to be nonsense. This issue is easily resolved by actually looking at the posts from both sides that are still here, on this very page.
But you would much rather call me yet another name and continue to pat your fellow liberals on the back for acting like NAZIs.
Congratulations. You must be very proud.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 20, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this
Chuck, you claimed Netbanker was wrong when he seemed to include you in his group of fundamentalists who only regard those like them to be “true” Christians, yet your own answers about Catholics, etc. clearly indicate that the only people you consider to be “True” Christians are those whose specific beliefs allign exactly with your own.
You dismiss most Catholics as “not real Christians” because they don’t share the Evangelical concept of Salvation, i.e. being “born again”, disregarding the fact that this concept is not only relatively new but is exclusive to Evangelical Protestant denominations. I’m an Episcopalean - we don’t have the concept of “being saved” or being “born again” that Evangelicals do. So, I guess I’m not a real Christian either, even though my church pre-dates your own by centuries?
One last question, Chuck. You suggested that anyone who was truly “ardent in their faith” would feel like you do about those of other religions. Let’s use an extreme example here - do you believe that the Dali Lama despises and looks down on those who are not Buddhists?
By chuck
December 20, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
f(x), weren’t you being a little judgemental there?
FIRST, you have no idea what kind of person I am. Someone who makes judgements about people they don’t know based on a few snippets of blog talk are not only JUDGEMENTAL, they are also ignorant. I didn’t JUDGE ANYONE. I simply stated a belief of the Christian Faith and the consequences associated with disbelief. I didn’t apply that to any particular person. I went out of my way to say that there could be Christians within ANY of those groups.
You on the other hand attacked me personally and called me a bigot. The truth is that you are bigoted against Christians. You can’t stand the fact that our Constitution allows us to exist. In fact, if you had your way, all Christians would be rounded up and executed for crimes against humanity. I know this because of your posts on a blog so you can’t possibly refute it. In fact, I know everything there is to know about you.
Yep, see how ridiculous that is? So in the future maybe if you think people are being judgemental, you should refrain from pointing it out. You may then be able to avoid the same accusation.
BTW, you write pretty well for a 15 year old.
By Snidely Butright
December 20, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
If you had an ounce of fairness you would have seen that the vitriol is always in response to the same kind of language directed at me.
[fade in. voice-over begins]
You’re traveling through another dimension — a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That’s a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone!
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension: a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You’re moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You’ve just crossed over into… the Twilight Zone.
There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call “The Twilight Zone”.
welcome, TOJ….
By Archie
December 20, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this
As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, would it surprise you to know that they believe only 144,000 people are going to heaven? Oops, that’s what they USED to believe until they increased above that number in membership? Chuck a Jehovah’s Witness did say something very similar to me. Chuck you had to say some of those things and I am not mad at you because that’s how you are taught. As for me I take a more liberal view of things and yes at times it conflicts with what is taught at my church. I am against the death penalty and part of my reasoning is the fallacy of our justice system and the forgiveness tenet of my faith,but I ain’t no bleeding heart person for a murderer. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ is a bigot. I don’t think Chuck is necessarily intolerant of other religion’s just strongly partial to his.
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
Snidely Butright
Once again, you has displayed the very best you can do.
It is sad, but true. It is no wonder that you do not have the courage to take a name and keep it.
By f(x) = 36x^2
December 20, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this
Chuck, why do you feel the need to make snide comments about me? It sort of undermines the righteous tone you worked up in your section about being overly judgemental, don’t you think?
However, you are right. I was being a bit judgemental. So why don’t you round out the picture a little for me? Behind that blog facade of rigid religiosity and seeming intolerance, what kind of person are you? Because ultimately, it’s how you treat people that matters, not what you believe. Are you courteous to people who “aren’t like you”? Are you kind and polite, or cold and disdainful to non-Christians or “not real Christians”. Do you have friends who are non-Christians or “not real Christians”? Do you berate people who say “Happy Holidays” or do you accept graciously the kindness intended?
BTW, you sound relatively intelligent for a biblical literalist.
By Archie
December 20, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
Chuck you should talk about forgiveness whether you are asked about it or not. Chuck you know more about the religions you mentioned at 10 am than a lot of people including me but I have heard those things before by others I know in person. Chuck I do have a conservative friend and I have called him a bigot to his face because he is.He would say something negative on a daily basis about homosexuals and he is not tolerant of liberal views at all. My point is I can get along with someone who is conservative yet disagree with them at the same time and I think sometimes liberals get a little too holier-than-thou with their attitudes.
By GOB
December 20, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this
TOJ - I dont care who calls who what on here, but was entertained by the fact that you inadvertantly called yourself out 20 minutes after you called someone a bigot by complaining about all of those that were calling you one.
Although I dont think anyone on here takes anything you say even remotely seriously, you are entertaining when you get fired up and start in on a tantrum…good times.
Monica (and the other teachers here) - enjoy your break. Two more finals tomorrow and I am out. This semester flew by, and I have no doubt next will too.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this
fx, silly girl, I said the same thing for Baptists,(my church), methodists, Presb., AG. and every other denomination. It doesn’t matter what I or anybody else BELIEVES. The only thing that matters is what God SAID in His WORD. As for the Episcopalians, maybe you should go to church more often:
The Episcopal Church is often called the “middle way” between Roman Catholicism and Protestant denominations.
We are in fact Protestant, as our official name is “The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America.” We are also catholic in tradition, holding to the original truths of Christianity taught by the Apostles, and catholic in our claim as part of the universal Church established by Christ.
We are Christian, believing that Jesus of Nazareth was God born as a human being 2000 years ago to bring the full revelation about God to humankind. Episcopalians believe that Jesus is the Christ - the Anointed One or Messiah, the Savior long hoped for by the Jews.
We believe that salvation is a fulfilling, life-giving and life-transforming process and relationship with God that occurs during our life on earth and continues after we die. Entrance into that relationship with God involves turning to God, acknowledging a need for a Savior God, and trusting that the way to that relationship is through the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.
We believe that all things necessary for salvation are found in scripture, the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Scripture is the inspired Word of God to be interpreted by the Church through the work of the Holy Spirit.
So I guess that your church is made up of a bunch of BIGOTS, because they believe the same thing about salvation that I believe.
By Lyrazel
December 20, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this
When any nation attaches so much reliance on end-of year sales as Amerika does, the season of Nov.-December becomes far more important for sales than the holidays that happened to be there first. Basically the buying season has been hijacked by year-end sales projections that have to be high or else. Now if you don’t overspend during these 2 months our economy will take a nose-dive (according to market analysts) and we are doomed. I think the war on christmas began when we became inundated by propaganda to purchase unnecessary cheap goods for the welfare of our economy during the holiday season.
Its our own fault. Had we put the end of the year with the chinese calendar all those economic forecasts would be tabulated in February and ruin Valentines day…
I am sitting under 12” of snow and wondering if ya’all in GA experiencing a drought want to come to maine and shovel me out and take my surplus back and sell it to Stone Mountain Park for their Holiday Extravaganza?
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this
GOB
I dont care who calls who what on here
I told you that I understand. It’s all about whether or not a person thinks like you politically as to the amount of fairness you are willing to grant anyone. It’s called bigotry.
You are bigoted toward chuck because he is a Christian and you are (obviously overtly) bigoted toward me because I dare to cast disparaging remarks about “The Party”.
This is not complicated. And you CERTAINLY aren’t complicated.
When the NAZIs gathered around people that they also disagreed with and shouted them down, they were also very proud of their accomplishments. You should be, too.
I have to run to pick up a friend whom I earlier took to the emergency room and I need to figure out what to do with this kitten that I have been baby setting for her. I’m afraid to take it in the car with this traffic.
Yea, you guys are the good guys. Shouting down others that don’t agree with you has a proud heritage and you should cling to that fascism as long as you can.
You and everyone else have a Merry Christmas.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
BTW, Read my post more carefully next time. I also said:
I don’t know of a single major religion of the world outside of the Asian religions that doesn’t have similar beliefs.
By Snidely Butright
December 20, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this
TOJ has fallen foul of Godwin’s Law. He automatically loses. But he’s probably used to that big “L” by now.
Happy Holidays.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
fx, I was just being a little sarcastic and over the top to show you that you were doing the same thing that you were accusing me of. The point is, I don’t know what kind of person you are anymore than you know what kind of person I am. I have MANY non-Christian friends. They know that I am a Christian and that I am going to occasionally bring up the topic. As a Christian, I DON’T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL…especially my friends. That’s why I want to tell them the good news. I don’t beat them over the head with it or try to force them into anything.
Pretty much all of the people I know, LOVE me if that tells you anything. Again, I could totally be making that up, because blogs are anonymous, but it is the truth. You are probably a great person. I would hate to think that anyone would base their opinion of you just on what you have written here. Most people use a little more common sense than that I hope.
By chuck
December 20, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
Have a great evening, Everybody.
By Archie
December 20, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this
As a Christian, I DON’T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL Chuck I picked up on that a good while back. We disagree politically but hey man, have a good,merry christmas and that applies to everyone. Happy holidays to those that prefer that type of greeting!!!
By The Other Jack
December 20, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this
Snidely Butright
Making adolescent rules about who wins or loses is all you have. Knock yourself out.
By GOB
December 20, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this
TOJ - I find it very interesting that you continually come back to the nazi references, but then complain that the government isnt mandating that public schools lead christian prayers each day. And before you start, let me be clear. I am in no way comparing christians, christianity, etc to nazis. Isnt the government forcing a minority group to practice a religous ceremony that they dont believe in much more nazi-like than allowing for a moment of silence each day so that each person can choose to pray (or not prayer) to whomever they like?
And as for being bigoted towards Chuck or christians in general is just not accurate. I think that a lot of what Chuck believes is crazy, and no doubt he feels that much of what I believe is crazy. I am cool with that, and certainly wish no ill will towards Chuck or any other christian on the blog. I am sure Chuck is actually very pleasant in person.
Keep up the rants though. They are pretty entertaining, although your one comeback is getting old (“I guess that’s the best you can do…slobbering…secularists”).
By chuck
December 21, 2007 9:15 AM | Link to this
Good Morning all. This will be my only post today unless I am able to free up some time this afternoon.
I sincerely want to wish you all a very Merry Christmas. I hope you all get to spend some great quality time with your family and friends. I wish God’s greatest blessings on you all. Be careful if you are travelling. I’m looking forward to getting back to the debate after Christmas. Until then Peace on Earth and good will to men…and women.
By Jack
December 21, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this
You have a good one too Chuck.
By lovelyliz
December 21, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this
Why are there so many trees out on the curb starting December 26?
The holiday season doesn’t end until the 12th day of Christmas which is the January 06, the Epiphany.
By The Other Jack
December 21, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this
GOB
TOJ - I find it very interesting that you continually come back to the nazi references,
I find it very interesting that you and so many here continue to act like NAZIs and then are surprised at my references.
If you had the courage to go see how “progressive” Goebbels was, you would understand why. One of you did go look for herself and had to agree that the leanings of Mr. Goebbels was very close to the modern liberal mantra.
Anyone with any sort of intelligence would understand that your name calling attacks and your selective criticism for only people you don’t agree with is as fascist as anything the NAZIs did in holding down competing ideas.
Too bad that you and others don’t have the courage to understand the tactics that you employ against anyone who does not walk in goose step with your hate filled mantra.
And no, there is no reason for you to compare Christians to NAZIs. Christians act nothing like most of the progressives here.
Maybe you guys could have a big book burning after the first of the year. Bibles would burn great. What a great, progressive way to start the new year!!
By The Other Jack
December 21, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this
GOB
Also, again, I understand that with fascist that facts only get in the way, but once again you are saying I said something that I never did. (What a surprise!!)
I stated that prayer will never be returned to schools because incrementalism rarely reverses. I also stated that it was not just the absence of prayer that has hurt our schools and the students attending them, but also a lack of moral training.
For a fascist to twist that into meaning that I support a government mandate forcing all students to pray is no big surprise. And I’m sure like all the other corrections i have had to point out to you, you will also ignore that one.
Now think really hard about how you can twist yet another statement by me into whatever you want it to actually mean.
By Jack
December 21, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
lovelyliz. I think you are all right! Merry Christmas to you.
By GOB
December 21, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
TOJ - That’s what I’m talking about…rant on. It really is entertaining.
By Fallacy Frank
December 21, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this
The Hitler Card Alias: Argumentum ad Nazium Type: Guilt by Association
Example: [T]he ideas of ecologists about invasive species—alien species as they are often called—sound…similar to anti-immigration rhetoric. Green themes like scarcity and purity and invasion and protection all have right-wing echoes. Hitler’s ideas about environmentalism came out of purity, after all.
In almost every heated debate, one side or the other—often both—plays the “Hitler card”, that is, criticizes their opponent’s position by associating it in some way with Adolf Hitler or the Nazis in general. This move is so common that it led Mike Godwin to develop the well-known “Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies”: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”
No one wants to be associated with Nazism because it has been so thoroughly discredited in both theory and practise, and Hitler of course was its most famous exponent. So, linking an idea with Hitler or Nazism has become a common form of argument ascribing guilt by association.
Some instances of the Hitler card are factually incorrect, or even ludicrous, in ascribing ideas to Hitler or other Nazis that they did not hold. However, from a logical point of view, even if Hitler or other Nazis did accept an idea, this historical fact alone is insufficient to discredit it.
The Hitler Card is often combined with other fallacies, for instance, a weak analogy between an opponent and Hitler, or between the opposition political group and the Nazis. A related form of fallacious analogy is that which compares an opposition’s actions with the Holocaust. This is a form of the ad Nazium fallacy because it casts the opposition in the role of Nazi. Not only do such arguments assign guilt by association, but the analogy used to link the opposition’s actions with the Holocaust may be superficial or question-begging.
Other arguments ad Nazium combine guilt by association with a slippery slope. For instance, it is sometimes argued that the Nazis practised euthanasia, and therefore even voluntary forms of it are a first step onto a slippery slope leading to extermination camps. Like many slippery slope arguments, this is a way of avoiding arguing directly against voluntary euthanasia, instead claiming that it may indirectly lead to something admittedly bad.
Playing the Hitler Card demonizes opponents in debate by associating them with evil, and almost always derails the discussion. People naturally resent being associated with Nazism, and are usually angered. In this way, playing the Hitler Card can be an effective distraction in a debate, causing the opponent to lose track of the argument. However, when people become convinced by guilt by association arguments that their political opponents are not just mistaken, but are as evil as Nazis, reasoned debate can give way to violence. So, playing the Hitler Card is more than just a dirty trick in debate, it is often “fighting words”.