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Are Hollywood writers strike demands justified?

Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.

Commentary

By Andrea Cornell Sarvady

Andrea Cornell Sarvady

Late night talk shows are in reruns, and America is getting more sleep— especially since the writers’ strike itself sure isn’t keeping anyone up at night. After all, the thinking goes, why do a bunch of rich Hollywood writers need a union anyway? Yet take a closer look at this labor dispute and you’ll quickly see that this is about more than an opportunity to catch Jay Leno passing out donuts in a picket line. A central bargaining system helps both management and staff in an industry with countless, separate productions. Yet don’t imagine both sides have equally deep pockets. A misleading statistic bandied about is that the average Writers Guild of America member makes $204,000 a year. Yet the far more significant number is the median writing income—a whopping $5,000 a year. In other words, skim the millionaires off the top and the picture shifts dramatically to one of many underemployed creatives, hoping to stay in the middle class through moonlighting and residuals. When the Writers Guild agreed to paltry residuals for DVD sales, they reluctantly bought into the assertion of network and studio executives that this was an unproven market. Writers instantly regretted their compliance; DVDs brought in $24 billion in revenues last year alone. The biggest sticking point now is new media, residuals for work seen on the internet, cellphones and iPods. Once again, management is pulling out the tired old claim that they would love to compensate writers more, but see new media profits as unpredictable. Meanwhile, industry executives are saying just the opposite to investors and the public. Typical is Sumner Redstone’s claim caught on videotape that “Viacom will double its revenue in digital”.
Yet what if the new media bonanza is a shooting star, dying as soon as it soars into sight? This is where management’s argument totally falls apart. Think about it: all the writers want is a small cut should massive profits once more be realized. As industry blogger Jan McLaughlin put it, “5% of nothing is nothing. What do the studios lose if internet entertainment never proves a gold mine? Nothing. If internet-based entertainment makes money, share. Share with the people who helped you make the magic happen.”

Rebuttal

By Shaunti Feldhahn

Shaunti Feldhahn

It’s compelling to think of the strike as being about writers trying to make ends meet. I empathize with the writers (being one myself), but there’s a much bigger issue at stake. This is really about the development of a whole new industry requiring speed, flexibility, and lots of extra R&D cash - assets notoriously hindered by cumbersome union contracts.

To Hollywood studios, this era of ‘new media’ sales looks a lot like what happened when IBM first sold something called the personal computer. A whole new industry! The Wild West! A new frontier — with dozens of competitors rushing to get a patch of land without getting killed.

Imagine if a hypothetical programmers union had said in 1989, “This whole ‘software’ thing is going to be huge. Our union contract should codify that for the next 20 years, we’ll be paid x% for every line of code.” That would have been ludicrous: programming evolved so quickly (requiring fewer lines of code, for example) that cementing something in stone during the Wild West period would have been counterproductive.

In the same way, Hollywood producers and studios find it impossible to define the new media Wild West enough to set in stone what the writer’s union was initially asking for. I mean think about it: we didn’t even [ITAL] have [END ITAL] cell phones playing video clips just a few years ago! Who knows how the profits from that are going to work in just one year, much less ten?

It’s also misleading to say five percent of nothing is nothing: it’s not easy to define which profits writers should get a share of. Producers and studios take all the risk and are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into program development and the new media infrastructure. As Alliance of Motion Pictures and Television Producers (AMPTP) president Nick Counter told “Screen International,” producers want to be able to at least cover the cost of an individual project before paying residuals.

Writers absolutely deserve a piece of the new media action, especially once the industry settles a bit. But there has to be a way to get it without risking new union contracts that impede Hollywood’s ability to leverage this new industry.

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By Billy

December 2, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Producers and studios take all the risk and are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into program development and the new media infrastructure.

Much like in the corporate world the CEOs and big investors are the ones who take all the risk and therefore shouldn’t have to provide things like health insurance and a living wage to their peons…

By Bill

December 3, 2007 8:31 AM | Link to this

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By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

How can the studios justify telling their investors and Wall Street how profitable the new media is while at the same time claiming abject poverty to the people who create the product in the first place?

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

And why can’t the editors of this blog remove the spam that gets posted?

By The Other Jack

December 3, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

The previous writer’s guild strike launched the “real-TV” craze. I hate that crap. Reality TV is no more interesting than my life, and in many instances, my life is better … much better.

Writers are apparently the difference between well produced, good TV and idiot TV. The studios make obscene profits. Pay the money. Put em back to work before our TV gets even dumber.

By Anonymous

December 3, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Predictably, Shaunti the Conservative is outraged at any hint of workers organizing to push for better treatment. She issues gloomy predictions of the “chilling and stifling” effect that such actions would have, or would have had, on proper economic development of various industries.

You remember “proper economic development,” don’t you? It was called the Gilded Age of robber barons, and we’re headed right back there at top speed.

By Solidarity

December 3, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Yes!

By chuck

December 3, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Hey guys. I bought a new car afew years ago and drove it for 3 years. I traded it in on a new car and the dealership sold it to somebody else. I know you won’t believe this, but they didn’t give me ANY money from the profit they made off of MY CAR.

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

chuck did you own the rights to the car?

Unless you had a copyright, the analogy doesn’t apply?

By Anonymous

December 3, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

If you had designed and built the car, Chuck, I’d be more sympathetic.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Chuck,

Unless I am missing something, it wasn’t your car once you traded it in to the dealership,it belonged to them. They then sell it for what it is worth, i.e, what someone is willing to pay for it.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Billy, you need a lesson in “risk”. Those who expose themselves to the greatest risk, expose themselves to the greatest loss. They also have the greatest chance of the biggest gain. For those who risk nothing, why should they have the same rewards as those who risk a great deal?

By USinUK

December 3, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

I love how, according to conservatives, EVERYthing causes a chilling effect to development. Environmental regulations, safety regulations, living wages, family/medical leave - it really doesn’t matter what you throw into the mix, the answer is the same: “it’ll kill businesses as we know it”

Fact is, new media (internet, ipod, electronic books, etc) will develop on their own WITHOUT big businesses like Viacom meddling. In fact, the music industry is a perfect example of how the industry, itself, has been the hinderance, not the leading-edge developer. Peer-to-peer file sharing did more for the music industry than any R&D management guy.

Writers deserve every penny they get - it’s because of them that we have some of the classic TV moments from shows ranging from The Simpsons to I Love Lucy to The West Wing to WKRP in Cincinnati (“As god as my witness, I thought turkeys could fly” is one of the funniest TV episodes EVER). Without writers, we’re stuck with “reality” TV - people eating bugs and calling it entertainment.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

Chuck…just reread your post. I believe you were makng the same point as I was. Sorry about that.

By NetBanker

December 3, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Billy, you need a lesson in �risk�. Those who expose themselves to the greatest risk, expose themselves to the greatest loss. They also have the greatest chance of the biggest gain. For those who risk nothing, why should they have the same rewards as those who risk a great deal?

But Syd, when a CEO makes a risky decision who is it executes on that decision? It is the employees, not the CEO. If the employees execute well then the CEO is lauded as a visionary and gets a giant bonus while employees (the ones who actually DID the work) get next to nothing. If the employees do not execute well or the CEO’s predictions of profitability do not materialize what happens? The CEO doesn’t get a big bonus or maybe loses his job while receiving a multi-million dollar golden parachute while the employees face layoffs or a salary freeze for not making the financials that year.

This dispute between the writers and studios is similar in nature. Those at the top of the corporate ladder are like captains on a ship. They set the course and speed while the ship’s crew executes on the orders. Everyone is still on the same ship so why should only the captain receive the benefits from the work of the entire crew?

By Syd

December 3, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

USinUK ,

Writers get paid what they are worth. Their worth is determined by what an “employer” is willing to pay and what an “employee” is will to accept. That dollar amount is generally (the exception is when govn’t and unions get involved) determined by the supply and demand of the skill the employee is offering. Please note the work “skill”. In this case, when there is a high supply of writers, the execs call the shots. When the supply is low, the writers call the shots. Unfortunately for TV viewers, there is a high supply of writers (I’ll add very few good writers today). Everyone and their brother wants to be a Hollywood writer. So, the execs call the shots. And since the studios are the ones putting up the risk ($$$’s), they should call the shots.

By chuck

December 3, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

NetB, false analogy. The crew does receive the benefit for their work. Each one receives a paycheck based on what they were told they would make when they signed on. They get paid even for POOR execution and the only one that suffers from that poor execution is the one who risked capital to put the ship into the water and who pays for the operation, maintainance, and execution of the voyage. If the engine breaks down, does the mechanic have to pay to fix it? If fuel costs increase does the cook in the galley get a pay cut?

By Syd

December 3, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

NetBanker,

I’m all for corporations sharing in the wealth. I’m an employee myself. Bring on the bonus! No problem with that. However, you are absolutly wrong that the CEO does not execute a decsion. It is the CEO (or other management type) that executes the plan. They execute the whole plan. Employees may execute part of the plan. And the employees get paid for what they previously agreed to get paid. Again, the employee has put up no risk. I sell software for my boss. Everytime I bring on a new client, my boss makes a lot more money than I do. And he rightfully should. He invested a lot of money and time to start this company. If he fails, he loses a LOT. If I fail, I simply don’t gain. That is a big differance people easily forget or just don’t understand.

By Freedom anyone?

December 3, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Unless we woke up in North Korea this morning, freedom-loving Americans still have the right to ask for what we want (askin’ ain’t gettin’), to band together and go on strike, and even to turn the alarm clock off and stay in bed if we feel like it. Who am I to judge others’ decisions to renegotiate the terms of their employment, or decide what they “deserve” for a day’s work?

What’s next? Is it time to start making private medical decisions for other people or telling them whom they can and cannot marry? Sheeesh.

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

When I think of CEO’s making bad decisions and paying the price names such as:

Stanley O�Neal and Charles O. Prince, Merril Lynch & their $360 million

Philip Purcell, Morgan Stanley, $43.9 million plus $250,000 a year for life

Douglas Ivester, Coca-Cola, $120 million

Robert Nardelli, Home Depot, $210 million

Michael Ovitz, Disney, $140 million after less than two years

Ask all the people laid off at Home Depot how much risk employees face when their bosses make bad decisions

By AGFNPR

December 3, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

I don’t really have an opinion about who is right or wrong in this debate. To me, it’s a repeat of the MLB strike years ago. The owners are rich, the players are rich, and I didn’t care back then if the spoiled brat players or owners ever put the product back on the field. Sure, the baseball players SAID they were striking for “the poor players” making the league minimum, but in reality they were all about putting more money in THEIR pockets. Just the same, the greedy owners could have ended that strike much earlier with just a few compromises.

The writers leading this charge are rich, the studio owners are rich, and I couldn’t care less if prime time TV shows ever come on again. I really like Heroes, House, and Criminal Minds. But somehow I survived before those shows ever made it on the air, and somehow I just believe I will make it if they never return.

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

The vast majority of writers are not rich while most of the studio execs are. That’s the point they are fighting over. Writers who gave up most rights when DVD’s started to hit big and became a multi billion $$$ profit center for the studios aren’t willing to do the same with new media.

By AGFNPR

December 3, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

lovelyliz: The vast majority of writers are not rich while most of the studio execs are. That�s the point they are fighting over.

I agree with that statement. I am simply stating that the poorer ones probably aren’t leading the charge to go on strike. Getting back to my analogy of the baseball strike years ago - it wasn’t the rich players who crossed the picket lines and started playing, it was the players who made the league minimum who started playing. Of course all the the “rich” players who were SUPPOSEDLY striking for the “little guy” were absolutely outraged when this began to happen.

I would be willing to bet that if this strike drags on for any length of time, the poorer writers will start back to work, and the rich ones will have a hissy fit and label them as traitors.

By chuck

December 3, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Freedom anyone? aka NNP.

Unless we woke up in North Korea this morning, freedom-loving Americans still have the right to ask for what we want (askin� ain�t gettin�), to band together and go on strike, and even to turn the alarm clock off and stay in bed if we feel like it. Who am I to judge others� decisions to renegotiate the terms of their employment, or decide what they �deserve� for a day�s work?

The problem is that the studios don’t have the freedom to hire new writers in either California or New York. In Georgia, a right to work state, people can’t be forced to join unions to work. In CA and NY, that is not the case. I’m all for freedom… if the bosses have the same freedom as the workers.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

By Freedom…Huh? Who’s talking about rights here? Employees certainly have the right to ask for a raise. By the same token, employers have the right to decline the request.

LovelyLiz..can you tell us specifically the bad decisions Nardelli made?

By chuck

December 3, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Reagan as usual had exactly the right idea. When the air traffic controllers went on strike he gave them a deadline to return to work and then he FIRED THEM if they didn’t show up.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Chuck…great point. I forgot about “right to work” states.

By chuck

December 3, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Is there an echo in here?

By Echo

December 3, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Is there an echo in here? Is there an echo in here? Is there an echo in here?

By chuck

December 3, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

I was a member of a union for a total of 1 week when I was in college. I was working for a large grocery chain. I got tired of it when I found out that the union mandated when I had to take my break. It didn’t matter if we were busy, or whether I needed a break at that moment. I HAD TO TAKE IT WHEN THE UNION SAID SO. There was a benefit though. I made $.30 an hour more. Of course my union DUES ate most of that. It’s a system that in no longer needed. There are all kinds of reasons why, but the biggest reason is that unions are driving jobs overseas or to Mexico.

By Echo

December 3, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Unions are driving jobs overseas or to Mexico.

By Larry

December 3, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

I am NOT a union man!

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Syd

He did manage to p** of a lot shareholders by telling the board to skip the annual shareholder meeting and prevented shareholders from speaking for more than a minute. Not a good thing for the CEO to do. He also oversaw a 40% decline in stock value.

Nardelli wasn’t all bad by any means, but as CEO increasing stock market value is his job. He was FIRED and left with the golden parachute the rest of us can only dream of.

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Unions are driving jobs overseas or to Mexico.

Since when???????????

By Echo

December 3, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

I had to take my break when the union said so, not when I had the urge.

By lozen

December 3, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

…the biggest reason is that unions are driving jobs overseas or to Mexico. What a very simplistic statement. There’s no greed in the corporate world right? No way could companies be moving jobs to keep from paying decent wages and health benefits for workers! Oh no. The CEO’s of several airlines, remember, just left with all kinds of perks and retirement packages and millions while the ppl who did the work were laid off, or had their salary and benefits cut. The middle class grows smaller while the rich and the poor segments of society grow larger. This is not good for the country and it’s not good for people who live and work in this country.

By Mara

December 3, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Just popping in for a nano. Hey to all :^)

chuck - Reagan’s issue with the air traffic controllers was that it was a public safety issue. Not the same.

It seems to me that the writiers issue should be whether they have the same intellectual property rights as musical artists (or actors ftm) to receive compensation anytime their property is used. If they sign a contract waiving those rights, that’d be different. But face it, without the talent of the writers, we’ll be stuck with such edifying fare as “Who Wants To Marry a U.S. Citizen” and “America’s Most Smartest Model”. Blech.

my personal O-pinion? I think the writers should receive compensation. It doesn’t have to be an extravagant percentage but at least a little somethin’-somethin’. Without them, it wouldn’t be worth downloading anyway.

http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/12/01/new-reality-show-who-wants-to-marry-a-u-s-citizen/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America’sMostSmartest_Model

By Lily Toad

December 3, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Most smartest?? Mara, I thought that was a joke. But, alas, no.

By Syd

December 3, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

LovlyLiz,

While I agree with your points on Nardelli and was certainly not in agreement with several of his management techniques while at HD, the numbers posted to HD’s P&L and Balance Sheet were impressive. That is something you won’t hear/read in the media. His purchase and the subsequent sale of just HD Supply paid for that golden parachute alone. That is not to mention his other aquisitions, growth, etc. He did grow the company in revenue, profits and profit margin. He expanded the company into other market seqments, profitably. No one could ever specifically point to Wall Streets distain of him. As far as those golden parachutes, blame the boards for that, not the CEO’s.

By chuck

December 3, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Well Lozen I was writing so even you could understand it. YES CEO’s are “greedy”. Their job is to make money for the people who are risking their capital to give all of those people jobs. When unions operate the way they have in this country, those investors DON’T MAKE MONEY. General Motors had a 2 billion dollar loss last quarter. How long do you think those workers will have jobs if they keep operating at a loss?

By chuck

December 3, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Mara, it’s one thing if you are talking about buying the movie rights to a blockbuster best selling book like Harry potter or something along those lines where ther is almost an assurance of making a profit, but what about all of those things that producers pay for UP FRONT that never get made into tv shows or movies or all of those that never air because they are so bad. Should the writers give back the money they got paid for those?

By lovelyliz

December 3, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

History is full of CEO’s who have done a poor job at best and illegal at worst yet walked away with million$ after the fact. I’ve known employees fired not because of what they have done and gotten nothing.

By Lily Toad

December 3, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Chuck, please explain so us dense progressives can get it — why do CEO salaries in the millions not keep the co. from operating at a loss, but $1 more an hour for the workers does?

By lozen

December 3, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Well Lozen I was writing so even you could understand it. Thank you so much Knuckles-Dragging-the-Ground. I know you’re always thinking about those of us who just aren’t as smart as you. What would we do if you didn’t dumb it down for us? I guess that’s why you’re a high school coach/teacher and the rest of us are not! Yeah, that’s it. Well do I remember how intelligent my high school coaches were. And now, what were those dimensions you figured for the Ark to prove it could hold all those animals?

By NetBanker

December 3, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

YES CEO�s are �greedy�. Their job is to make money for the people who are risking their capital to give all of those people jobs. The job of a CEO is a matter of perspective. I don’t necessarily agreed that it is to make money for investors because that definition doesn’t cover privately held companies. It’s also an extremely narrow focus.

In today’s market you may well be correct, but there was a time when the philosophy was that by taking care of employees, they’ll take care of the customers, and business will take care of itself. That approach has been reversed with employees being the last in the line, stockholders first, and customers in the middle. But who really adds value to a company? Is it the stockholders or the employees?

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By USinUK

December 4, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

Syd - Sorry for the delayed response (blame it on the time zone difference).

This isn’t a simple case of “are you worth $5/hour or $7.50/hour.” The writers aren’t talking about not getting paid what they’re worth - they’re talking about getting paid when their product is sold over and over and over again. If they negotiate a fee for selling their product on first-run and syndication, then the corporation turns around and also sells the product on downloads, DVD, etc, then, they have the right to demand royalty payments for those outlets, as well, just as the actors do through SAG.

And, as for “CEOs taking all the risk” - you’re kidding, right?? What risk? Other companies have spent $$ on R&D to develop the technology for file downloads, not to mention spending WADS of $$ laying down cables for greater bandwidth. The only “risk” the broadcast companies are taking is figuring out what business model will work.

Chuck - as for you, you never cease to amaze me with some of the idiotic things you say. You think Ford’s $12.7 buh-buh-buh-BILLION loss in 2006 was the fault of the UNIONS??? Sorry, bub, that’s nothing but poor leadership - a CEO who isn’t reading the market. Ford used to have a HUGE market here in the UK and Europe (police cars, etc) - but they lost it when they kept making large, gas-guzzling cars. You want to blame someone, look to the head office, not the union guys who are just trying to pay for their health care.

And, as for the “risk” the CEOs take - WHAT RISK??? Name me a CEO who has been fired in the last 10 years that DIDN’T have a golden parachute worth millions (Nardelli - $210 million, Prince a paltry $30 million, to name a couple) . The only risk they take if they don’t perform is that they might lose their prime tee-off time at the local golf club.

By Anonymous

December 4, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

Pro-market cheerleaders always talk about unions “interfering in the natural level-setting of the market” as if it’s some horrible thing. It’s not.

Who CARES if workers are getting more than a purely unregulated, 100%-efficient marketplace would provide? The workers are more important than some silly abstract notion of “marketplace efficiency” anyway. Who matters more… people, or capital?

By 2D

December 4, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

Liz… History is full of lots of folks who have stolen paychecks, from CEOs all the way to Janitors. We just think more poorly of the CEO because the $$$ numbers are so large.

The fact of the matter is that these writers should feel very fortunate that they have the opportunity to do the job that literally MILLIONS of people would kill to have.

AND

Most of them are not any more talented than the other MILLIONS of folks who want their job. They simply had a connection, were in the right place at the right time, or created one good piece of material and are trolling based on that one achievement.

In fact, I would surmise that 80-90% of these “creatives” could be replaced with many of the others out there clamoring for a chance and the TV/movie industry wouldn’t miss a beat. Outside of some shows with very specific tones or styles (i.e. The Office), none of us would know the difference. I mean, c’mon, are the “Law and Order” staff writers the only ones who can “rip stories from the headlines”. Heck no! They are simply the ones who have been given the chance. With Mr. Wolf in charge, he could orchestrate new seasons with a completely different pool of writers.

I believe this because I have written screenplays before and done very well in contests and had producers interested in my material. If some “no-name” outsider like me can get that far writing as a hobby in my spare time and not having any contacts, imagine what a truly motivated writer could do with a chance.

After growing up the child of a union President in the 80’s, I have grown to despise unions. Any kind of union. Industry, sport, entertainment. Doesn’t matter. They have outgrown their usefulness and in my opinion cause far more harm than good. This is just another in the long list of examples.

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

Winning a writing contest is no comparison to grinding out weekly shows. I am about as anti-union as anyone could be, but I do have a great deal of respect for writers. And I have much less respect for the bean counters at the studios.

Those bean counters and executives could also be replaced by the hundreds of people wanting their jobs, but they are not. Those execs got those jobs the same way the writers got theirs: through connections.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this

2D- you’re right. requiring employers to provide basic benefits like health care (or, in the case of SWG and Actors’ Equity, providing it, themselves). how horrible. how outdated.

By 2D

December 4, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

Anonymous… We should all care if workers are getting more than the purely, unregulated marketplace would provide.

Why you ask?

Because when that happens the COST of goods will be altered, usually rise, to cover the cost of the extra benefits paid to employees. That balancing act will inevitably drive a company, or even an industry, out of business.

The American auto industry is a perfect example of this vicious cycle. Unions at the auto and steel companies raised the cost of employees to the point where the American auto industry has a difficult time competeing with others here in the States. Couple that with the high tarriffs that other countries slap on our goods and they can’t compete internationally.

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

Chuck

Sorry to go against you, pal. We usually agree.

You keep comparing creative fields with non-creative fields. There is no comparison. I work in a creative field where I rarely see my creations continue to make money for me. It’s not fair. I see people making money off my creativity over and over. And in spite of what most people believe, not everyone can be creative.

A rapper steals samples of music that musicians actually created. They copy that file, put it into a simple wave editor and put together a series of loops and track stacking that requires no talent other than basic computer knowledge. The they write some basic adolescent poem that would sound completely idiotic, if it weren’t for the profanity and twisted social comment. Then they do the required octave doubling so it will rattle the windows of any car it is played in and that pile of non-creative garbage makes the “artists” millions.

No one complains about them continuing to make money from that abortion of a piece of stolen music, but the people that form the backbone of the television industry are thrown to the curb to be replaced by idiotic “reality TV”.

I don’t give a tinker’s damn about the union thugs, but the writers need to be treated better.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 9:19 AM | Link to this

The fact of the matter is that these writers should feel very fortunate.

Fact? “Should feel” sounds like an opinion or a directive, not a fact.

Most of them are not any more talented than the other MILLIONS of folks who want their job.

Wow. Amazing! And you know this because…..?

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I also support the writers, but the demise of the American Auto industry is directly linked to the domination of the unions. No they didn’t change styles in time, but that was partially because of the unions. Re-fitting an auto plant is done by higher end union people who are even harder to deal with than the assembly line workers.

Everything about the auto industry that makes them old and slow is directly linked to union involvement.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

Ford had numerous truck factories that were idle much of the quarter, even as unionized hourly workers continued to be paid near full salary. It responded to the downturn by offering all 75,000 of its U.S. factory workers buyouts or enhanced retirement packages to leave the company, which more than half of them agreed to do.

Most of the charges related to those downsizing efforts.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

BTW, usinuk, Didn’t you outsource your spouse to England?

By AntiConservative

December 4, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

What’s the problem? Isn’t that what the UltraRight has always wanted, the demise of Hollywood.

Why can’t we also outsource films to, say, Bollywood? And we can even blame the writers’ union and this strike. At least Bollywood won’t allow any kissing on-screen, seems it would be the UltraRight’s ultimate desire.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Didn�t you outsource your spouse to England?

Chuck … if you’re an example of the pickins from my hometown, is it any wonder I had to look elsewhere??

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

I gotta disagree with you - Honda and Toyota didn’t rise to dominance during the 80s because unions charged too much to retrofit plants. Honda and Toyota challenged and defeated the Big 3 because the Big 3 took their market (US auto buyers) for granted and started delivering substandard products. Me - in high school, I drove a Dodge that dented as easily as a Coke can - cheapcheapcheap. When I bought my first car, it was a Honda because 1) it was compact and gas efficient, and 2) it felt a lot more solid/less made of plastic than anything coming out of Detroit.

As for the “people kept on the payroll” assertion - have you ever been to Detroit ?? It’s a wasteland because people WERE let go, not because they were kept on the payrolls.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

The point, so all you socialists can understand it, is that not all writers DESERVE the same deal. Every writer should negotiate his own deal. Great (or sometimes just popular) writers will get paid more than those who are formulaic hacks. That’s the way the free market works. If a studio has writers on staff, they are paying them BEFORE a piece is produced. To me there is no difference between so-called “creative” fields and non-creative fields.

Does the designer of a new automobile get a royalty everytime that car is sold? For that matter, what about an sculptor or an painter? Do they get money when someone who has bought their work turns around and sells it? Is Whistler still getting paid when his “mother” is used in print ads? Does Michaelangelo get a royalty every time someone visits the Cistine Chapel? What about Da Vinci? Is he getting a royalty for his work on “the code”? Why should these television hacks get paid continually for previously remunerated work?

By chuck

December 4, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

I understand USinUK, most of us probably were well above your paygrade.

By lozen

December 4, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Me - in high school, I drove a Dodge that dented as easily as a Coke can - cheapcheapcheap. When I bought my first car, it was a Honda because 1) it was compact and gas efficient, and 2) it felt a lot more solid/less made of plastic than anything coming out of Detroit.

Why do you think that is? American car manufacturers were making no more money than Honda or Toyota. They were cheap because of the massive amount of the working capital that had to go to extremely high wages and benefits that the unions required. The Japanese plants were not unionized and the administration of the Japanese plants had an almost dictatorial rule over their employees. Their business practices were much like the practices of their armies during the late 1930s. They were brutally competitive and the films you see of morning calisthenics were true.

They now have plants here, but they usually put the plants in free-work states where the required unions do not have the political pull to force the administration of the plants into deals which will hurt the quality of the cars. They also have much better quality control because of their use of assembly line robotics that the unions fight tooth and nail in Union states.

Mercedes just dumped Chrysler. They will never admit it, but they had nothing but union problems the whole time they owned them. I�m surprised they kept them as long as they did. BMW has already threatened to close down the Greenville SC plant if the union got their latest stack of demands. Explain how good the union is to the people they have put out of work.

As for the �people kept on the payroll� assertion - have you ever been to Detroit ?? It�s a wasteland because people WERE let go, not because they were kept on the payrolls.

Why do you think that is? Why would I pay a non-skilled worker in Detroit $20/hour when I can get better educated, more highly skilled workers in Atlanta for $10 an hour? Yes, they were let go because they wanted too much money for assembly line jobs.

Detroit has always been union. Well, now they have their union. That�s all they have. But they do have their union.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Chuck -

Maybe one day you’ll learn to read the news before you decide to comment on it. This strike isn’t about the writers all getting paid the same. The strike is so that writers can get paid a % of the additional revenues the companies will make from selling the programming online and through other outlets.

And, while dead artists aren’t paid for commercial use of their work, their families are (perhaps you’ve heard of ASCAP??). Musicians license their music and are paid when it’s played on the radio or used in commercials until the license expires and the music becomes open domain. Even the families of Patty and Mildred Hill will be paid each and every time “Happy Birthday to You” is used commercially until 2030. Same goes for artwork and photography - if you print and commercially use, say, a Hockney painting for an ad, I can guarantee you you’ll be hearing from his lawyer for unlawful use.

The designer of a new car doesn’t get paid everytime a car is sold because usually designers of autos, software, etc., have as part of their work contract that any and all work done while under the company’s employ is solely owned by that company. However, I’ll bet they get good bonuses if the car sells well and is lauded in the trade rags.

You’re so ignorant of oh-so-many things … and yet, you think you’re “above my paygrade”??? It’d be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

AntiConservative

You have just a small amount of drool hanging off your lip.

We don’t want Hollywood closed down. A lot of conservatives make a lot of money off Hollywood and the sheep that seem to idolize the brilliant political stances of Sean Penn and Babs Striesand.

Pardon us for daring to require more than a nice profile or a sexy figure in order for a person to earn our support in their political stances.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

The Big 3 didn’t resort to cheap plastic cars because of union demands. And Japan didn’t ascend because they aren’t unionized - the Japanese have long adapted other country’s technology and found ways to do it better. It’s a great model - why spend money on R&D when you can adapt and perfect?

As far as foreign companies dumping Chrysler because of unions - please. German unions make US unions look like girl scouts. Seriously. They’re a lot tougher and a lot more demanding than US unions.

And, as for the reason these companies relocated south, it wasn’t because of the education - that was one of the first complaints for the companies relocating in SC and AL. The companies were wooed by low/no taxes - to the detriment of the state.

By AntiConservative

December 4, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

BMW has already threatened to close down the Greenville SC plant if the union got their latest stack of demands

That is years-old news, yet somehow they still make BMWs in Greenville SC.

Interesting that the Outrageous union demands in Germany did not keep both BMW and Mercedes from exporting production to the marketplace. One would have thought they were too broke from all those outrageous union demands in Germany to even think about overseas expansion.

By 2D

December 4, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

No-Talent Writer… Did you simply read the first line of my post and then respond? Because obviously, you didn’t read the entire post.

The assertion that there are more than enough writers to fill current jobs at the studio is based on personal experience. If I, a writer by hobby only, can perform well in writing contests and get low budget producers interested in my work, then I feel comfortable in taking the leap that there are many more people like me, and probably better than me that would be able to fill the writing jobs vacated by striking writers.

I also mentioned that some writers would be very difficult to replace due to a very specific type or style of writing.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Are you saying American car makers are forced to utilize inferior design, engineering, and materials because assembly-line workers demand the ability to see (afford) a doctor when they’re sick as part of their compensation package?

Here’s an idea: why don’t we reform the American health care system so that GM and Ford don’t have to spend so much insuring their workers, and THEN just maybe, they can afford to compete with foreign auto makers? (Alternatively, say screw the workers, let ‘em languish in their illness and lose their homes, if you think they’ll produce a better product that way. Homeless guys always work late?)

Or maybe if more of our kids came out of school with math and science skills, we’d have more technological innovation — the kind that once made America an economic power — coming from the USA and purchased by our friends in other nations (moving us away from dependence on foreign fossil fuels, even?) instead of the other way around. Hmmm…. So many options… It’s a good thing we Americans all have open minds, an appreciation of logic and a real desire for solutions!

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

USinUK

This is not complicated. If you look at a US map and have an overlay of the deserted, crime ridden cities called the rust belt and then overlaid the areas where the unions had the greatest influence, I would bet that the borders would be almost identical.

And now that both political parties have been laying down for the globalizaion of the required work force, the unions are becoming an even greater liability.

Unions used to be very important, but like affirmative action, when the problems were solved, the organizations that solved the problems are now the problem.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

The problems have been solved? Really? You mean, people are getting health care, their pay is keeping up with the cost of living, they’re not working 37 hours of week but still considered “part-time”???

hmmm … I must’ve missed that headline somewhere.

oh, and all this has taken place when corporations have been raking in record profits over the last 3 years …

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I read an interesting article about the German Unions. They do fight for the rights of the employees, but they also fight against cutbacks that reduce the quality of the cars. It is a very nationalistic approach. Can yo imagine an American Union doing that?

Like I said: it doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to see that where the Unions had the greatest influence are the most impoverished areas in our country.

If I can make a widget for 50 cents in Georgia, why would I want to keep my old plants in Michigan where it costs me $1.25 to make the same widget?

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

no Talent writer

Here�s an idea: why don�t we reform the American health care system so that GM and Ford don�t have to spend so much insuring their workers, and THEN just maybe, they can afford to compete with foreign auto makers?

So you want the general population which makes much less money than auto-workers to subsidize the auto-workers healthcare. Here’s a better idea. Why don’t they subsidize my health insurance?

Do you understand that whoever gets health insurance, someone has to pay for it? You do understand that, don’t you?

Here’s an idea. Tax the crap out of gas and take that money and buy health insurance for everyone. But that’s never going to happpen beccause the two largest lobbying industries are the oil companies and the insurance companies which own BOTH political parties.

By Anonymous

December 4, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

2D: And yet, auto makers get tax breaks, special publicly-funded “incentives” to set up shop in specific states, their own lobbyists in Congress, import protections and tariffs…

All those are “interfering in the free market” too—but to management’s BENEFIT. So those acts of tampering seem to be okay. But let the workers try to get a piece of the action, and suddenly “We can’t compete in the marketplace if we give our employees decent benefits! Those darn old unions make it impossible to do business! Waaaahhhh!”

Sorry, not buying it.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

It sounds like we’re both in agreement that the primary cause of the Big 3’s demise is the quality of the product. You think that stems from the unions - I think it stems from the head office. Either way, the result is the same.

And, either way, it really doesn’t apply to what’s going on with the Writers Guild :-)

BUT, you’re a great sparring partner!!

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Did you read “The Jungle” by Upton Sinclare? Human rights violations were fixed by the unions. But what I am asking you to consider is that any organization that has the power the unions have had need to act in moderation, once human rights issues are resolved.

If they do not, the results can be the stretch of desolation and crime that is the direct result of the Northeast’s Union’s unreasonable demands made on every industr y that existed.

The rust belt used to be the work belt. The envy of the world.

If their power is not regulated, they become power hungry and infested with criminal elements and the corporations will have no choice but to relocate to a place where the workers are more reasonable.

Logical balance and compromise. It makes the world go around. Unreasonable demands rarely do anything.

But again, I do think the writers should be treated better. Actors are nothing. They are pretty people who have learned to parrot back what the script girl tell them to say. When most of them speak in public without a prompter or script, they make GW Bush sound like a Shakespearean actor. Most are dumb as a rock. But no one has any problem with them getting a huge residual for every film they participate in, for the rest of their life. But writers fight for everything they get.

By lovelyliz

December 4, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Auto engineers are also employed on a regular basis, television and movie writers are not. They don’t have stable work and must fight for every residual $$$ they can because as soon as their project is canceled, the studios cuts them off.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

BTW - if the Unions are the cause for the demise, then why hasn’t opening the plants across the Right to Work Belt (previously known as the Bible Belt) fixed all the automakers’ problems? If the Unions are the Root of All Shortfalls, then why hasn’t relocation solved the auto industry’s ills? Why have they continued to dive into a sea of red, despite closing plants up north??

Why? Because the problem is in the the head office which isn’t seeing which way oil prices are going and anticipating what the consumer will do in response. The problem is in the surplus of SUVs at the dealerships.

Sorry - meant to make that point in my last post, but didn’t.

By lozen

December 4, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Notalentwriter: your 10:49 - priceless. USinUK, I love the way you handle chuck/knuckles. Living in a different country has to give you a much broader perspective on everything. The Bertrand Russell quote was just for chuck, BTW. All he knows to do when ppl disagree is call them “socialists” and other names. And repeat himself over and over. My high school coaches were memorable. We all laughed at them because they were such dumb jock knuckle draggers. Of course that was back when we only knew the juvenile tactic of calling ppl names that we didn’t like!

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Anonymous

It doesn’t matter whether you buy it or not. It is a fact of life that corporations can move if the demands of the Unions get too unreasonable. How’s that union thing working out for Detroit? For years they were the highest paid unskilled laborers in the world. Now most are wards of the state. How did the union work out there?

Whether it is right or wrong is debatable, but whether or not is happens is not. It is a fact of life.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

BTW, musicians are not paid when their songs are played on the radio. Also, much of the current artwork is sold under an exclusive buyout contract that includes the copyright. This applies to photography also. It depends on who buys the artwork and how the sale is structured. The bottom line in these instances is that EACH ARTIST determines what he or she will do with his or her copyright. They negotiate these fees for themselves. NO UNION IS NECESSARY.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

Yes, the Rust Belt used to be the Work Belt … in the 1950s. When Europe and the UK were still living with post-war rationing and rebuilding after WWII. And Japan?? They weren’t even a speck in the US’s economic horizon.

If you look at the larger picture, you really can’t blame the unions for the downfall of the auto industry. Or, you can’t blame ONLY the unions. There were so many factors - most especially increased competition (and the de-stigmatization of owning German cars).

Yes, we have come a long way since The Jungle and the Triangle Shirtwaist Company - but that doesn’t mean that the worker is no longer taken advantage of. All one has to do is start reading about the way Wal-Mart treats its employees to know that’s true.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack: I’d be happy to subsidize your health insurance, Buddy! And yes, I DO “get” that someone has to pay for it — a tidbit not lost on me every year when my premiums go up.

The system we have is structured to funnel hefty profits to a small percentage of the population while driving costs continually upward for those who can pay, and out of the reach of those who can’t. It’s my opinion that public health benefit us ALL, (Don’t wanna catch tuberculosis from the guy who serves you that burrito at lunch, do you?) and that a healthy populace is more productive. Isn’t that what the companies refusing to hire smokers or insure the obese are saying? If you’re looking strictly at efficiency and value for the dollar, our system of access and delivery is poorly structured, grossly mismanaged, and change is warranted. Keep the baby, but let’s toss the dirty bathwater.

But you’re absolutely right: The big corporate lobbyists OWN our government, and all the laws and regulations therein. I believe this will be true until we can take big money out of elections.

Think about it: An American with a “pre-existing condition” might actually, someday, be able to quit his corporate job and start his own business, follow his own drive, skills and hard work, and further the entreprenureal spirit that made this country GREAT! We can dream….

By chuck

December 4, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

like “dumb jock” and knuckledragger”

By lozen

December 4, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

If I can make a widget for 50 cents in Georgia, why would I want to keep my old plants in Michigan where it costs me $1.25 to make the same widget? You certainly should not if all you care about is how much money you can squeeze out of the human beings with children and bills and illnesses who work for you! If you have any humanitarian sense, however, you might think about how easily you can ruin the lives of so many ppl depending on you. I guess I’m just crazy enough to wish we could change the whole thing to a system that cares more for people than money and profits. Ummm, I know that is just so idealistic and impractical and socialist!

Actors are nothing… When most of them speak in public without a prompter or script, they make GW Bush sound like a Shakespearean actor. Please, that is just totally over the top. Nobody could do that!

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

USinUK

SUVs are definitely a huge problem. I have hated them since they were introduced. I am a car nut that loves technology and performance. Why do I pay the extra for incredible good anti-lock brakes when the idiot talking on the phone and is driving that ill engineered 6 ton pile of brake-less crap is riding two feet from my bumper. If I hit those brakes, I will be under that stupid over accessoriesed truck frame before the idiot even realizes what they have done. Anyone reading this and drives an SUV. PARK IT!!!

The only good thing about them is going out after a slight dusting of snow and see how many SUVs are setting in a ditch.

(Sorry. Got a little crazy there. I’m OK now)

We are not going to agree, but it is still the unions. Foreign manufacturers that build here get much better deals with the unions. Domestic companies have the baggage of national union policies which make the plants less efficient and more expensive. Again, the robotics aspect is huge. Hondas and Toyotas are built by machines, Chevys are built by hung-over, over paid workers who are thinking about getting off work.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Just the other day I saw this Wal-mart manager out on the street grabbing people and forcing them to work in the store. It was horrible. Not only did they force them to work, but then they turned around and actually PAID THEM for that work. That is despicable behavior. I also heard a rumor…I can’t vouch for this personally, mind you…that they were providing products DIRECTLY TO CONSUMERS AT LOW PRICES.

WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END?

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

Chuck

Musicians are paid when their songs are played on the radio. Every time. At least the ones that have registered with BMI or ASCAP

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

No-talent Writer

I agree with everything you say except the money spent on elections is a small amount compared to lobby money. Stop that money and we get our government back.

Never forget that the people with the most control get the most money so guess who is getting all the lobby money, now?

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Chuck -

Sorry - wasn’t clear - musicians aren’t paid for radio play - but the songwriters are. As are the publishers. Why?? HELLOOOOO ASCAP!! Musicians are organized under the Recording Industry Association of America and are starting to make demands to be paid, as well.

As far as artwork, your point was that people make money off artwork without the artist getting paid. I pointed out how wrong you are. And you just did the same - it’s all in the copywrite - if the artist chooses to sell the copywrite with the artwork, then, fine. If he/his estate holds it, they get paid. Who said anything about unions being the reason for that.

The purpose of the Writers Guild strike is so that they can have an agreement with the company to get paid for ALL distribution of their work - not just first-run and syndicated airplay. It’s not for the same pay for everyone. It’s not for some random benefit you feel like they shouldn’t get ‘cuz you don’t. It’s payment for performance. If the show is no good, the company won’t put it up for electronic distribution and the writer won’t get additional royalties.

By LaughoftheWeek

December 4, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

The Laugh of the Week is a tie, Ladies and Gentlemen:

they make GW Bush sound like a Shakespearean actor. Nobody could do that!

Chuck � if you�re an example of the pickins from my hometown, is it any wonder I had to look elsewhere??

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

lozen

That’s a great speech. I was getting a little misty there for a minute.

But the facts are that Union states require a much higher cost of living than non-union states. My widget will be made by people that I am able to provide an even higher standard of living than I was able to provide to the ungrateful union workers.

In fact, since Clinton pushed through NAFTA, I think I will just head on down to Columbia where I can get that widget made for 5 cents and I will be the hero of whatever little village I rescue.

Yes, it’s a silly little scenario, but you know that it is the truth. As much as we would all like for them to be, corporations are not human rights organizations. They are built to make money. You can yell at me for stating the obvious, but I didn’t make the rules.

By USinUK

December 4, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

Glad to know I’m not the only one who goes a little nutty about SUVs!! :-) (they’re dangerous, they’re gas guzzlers and, unless people haul things regularly, they’re unnecessary on the road).

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

LaughoftheWeek

Glad you are reading my posts. Sorry about that thing you have for Hollywood actors. I just can’t see it, myself.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

I should have been more specific with that post TOJ. Musicians are not paid a fee for each time a song is played on the radio. As members of Performance Rights Organizations such as ASCAP or BMI, Radio Stations and TV stations etc…pay for the blanket rights to use all songs registered with that organization. Artists get paid on a sliding scale based on the overall popularity of the song which is based on surveys of station logs. I assumed that USinUK was talking about a payment per use as would be the case in some commercial use.

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

USinUK

The performer also gets royalties from radio play, at least the producer of the song does. That’s why almost every big music star has their own production company.

A lot of this is also decided by contracts between the participants all the way out to the director of the music videos. A lot of people with their hand in the cookie jar and the record companies still make millions.

By BlogBS

December 4, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

NAFTA, I think I will just head on down to Columbia

Geography lesson needed. North American Free Trade Association. Columbia is in SOUTH America. NAFTA affects Canada, Mexico and the USA only.

And Bush Sr. was the catalyst for NAFTA, it practically a done deal, waiting for Senate confirmation, when Clinton became President. DUH!

By lozen

December 4, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

And like “socialist” and “America haters” for anyone who disagrees with you!

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

Chuck

No. They changed all that. Blanket rights cover almost nothing now. I worked in TV stations until around 1990 and the stations would buy a BMI or ASCAP blanket. Now each piece that is used needs to be registered with the distributor. It was driving the bean counters crazy.

The blanket rights term in radio came to mean that all songs get the same payment for use so a song from the 30s get the same pay as a current hit. The songs are listed and the artists, writers, etc. all get money for that play, unless of course the song has become public domain.

Clubs with cover-bands do play blankets in the old sense that basically said that they are paying off BMI and ASCAP not to close them down. .

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

BlogBS

You are right. Glad that was all you could find in my little parable. You do understand that it was a parable where I was trying to explain that corporations go to the less expensive and most reasonable work force. So you got that … good.

I also appreciate your admission that it was Democratic President with a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate that passed NAFTA. Bush didn’t fight it. He should have, but he had no power to stop it.

By Anonymous

December 4, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

And this leads us directly to the REAL lesson our corporate masters are trying to drill into us… “American workers just have it too darn good. Corporations have a moral and fiscal duty to move overseas to exploit third-world workers in countries with no pesky safety or health regulations… so American should get used to competing with (and living like) sweatshop laborers, because that’s what the Sacred FREE MARKET requires.”

No thanks. We don’t have to accept that, and we don’t have to put up with corporations operating on that model.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

According to ASCAP’s own website they still do a blanket license for radio stations:

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/radio/BlanketRadioLicense.pdf

By chuck

December 4, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

No you are exactly right Anusymous. We don’t have to put up with corporations that act that way. We can overregulate them and force them to do things that are not in the best interests of that company and we won’t have to put up with them at all, because they will LEAVE and take all of those jobs to another country.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

�American workers just have it too darn good. Corporations have a moral and fiscal duty to move overseas to exploit third-world workers in countries with no pesky safety or health regulations� so American should get used to competing with (and living like) sweatshop laborers, because that�s what the Sacred FREE MARKET requires.�

Although I detect a hint of sarcasm in his voice, Anonymous is, as far as I can tell, paraphrasing exactly what “conservative,” anti-union Americans in favor of corporate [but not individual] rights are saying. If you are a “conservative” anti-union American, who has no problem with companies taking jobs overseas (or moving their HQ to Dubai to avoid US taxes and regulation), and this does not reflect the gist of your beliefs on this matter, please refute it, because as far as I can tell, that’s what you’re saying and I would hate to misunderstand you. Thankssomuch.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

In ASCAP’s FAQ’s is this explanation:

What does the ASCAP Radio License give you?

Access to every variety of music you need to attract and entertain your viewers. The immediate right to perform great new music written or published by our members. Access to perform music in the repertories of over 90 affiliated foreign societies. The right to perform music in commercials and jingles. An indemnity if a claim for infringement is made against you, your staff or your advertisers based on the performance of our member’s works. A fee that has remained constant for more than a decade and has not increased in 11 years, even though the ASCAP repertory has grown.

The fee is based on the gross adjusted revenue of the radio station NOT on a fee for each song played.

By Anonymous

December 4, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Chuck seems willing to accept that corporations are his masters, and that their decisions drive what options are available to him.

The rest of us, thankfully, are a bit smarter than that. We remember that WE’RE in charge; corporations are not. WE make the rules for how they’re allowed to operate, and whether they have access to our marketplace at all… and on what terms. THEY do not.

In America, the people are in charge, Chuck. Care to join us?

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

Anonymous

No thanks. We don�t have to accept that, and we don�t have to put up with corporations operating on that model.

I’m right there with you, pal. You tell those corporations “what for” just like your Union brothers did in Detroit. Good luck to you.

By The Other Jack

December 4, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

No-talent Writer

Anonymous is, as far as I can tell, paraphrasing exactly what �conservative,� anti-union Americans in favor of corporate [but not individual] rights are saying.

Excuse me? It wasn’t a Republican President a Republican House or a Republican Senate that passed NAFTA.

Conservatives are anti-Union because we understand that the Unions’ position of “our way or the high way” is what devastated the Northern rust belt cities. Non-Union states are still hanging on to a minimal workforce but many of those industries are made up of illegal immigrants.

We are losing our industries because of bill after bill passed by both parties that took away our worker’s protections. We can fold our arms and say that we will not tolerate it all we want as we see our jobs moving to everywhere but here.

Stop blathering about what you think conservatives all believe and start looking at the facts.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Sorry Anusymous, you couldn’t be further from the truth. In the years before I became a teacher, I had control over me, not any corporation. I knew going in what I would make, what opportunities existed for advancement and the requirements for accessing those opportunities, and what if any benefits were included as a part of employment. If I did not like what the company offered, I didn’t take the job. If after taking the job, I found a better opportunity somewhere else, I took it.

I’m not going to put myself in a position of having to go hat in hand to some boss and especially not some UNION boss to get what I need for my family. That’s why I have constantly worked to improve myself and my skills through education and keeping up to date with current trends.

I’m confident that you could drop me off anywhere in the world and I would be able to figure out a way to make a living.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Stop blathering about what you think conservatives all believe and start looking at the facts.

Actually, I believe I asked for clarification, so as not to be blathering beliefs that may not be true. I’m happy to look at the facts! Wanna show me some? We are losing industries because bill after bill (which ones?) took away our worker’s protections (which ones?) See, I was under the impression companies like Mindspring outsourced their support techs to India because they can pay those people much less, and because they save $$ on their US tax bill by doing so. Am I wrong? Is India in North America? (Sorry, I went to skool wif teacher man in a rite to werk state.) Bring on the fackts!

By BlogBS

December 4, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Is India in North America

of course not, it is called a parable.

By Monica

December 4, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

I just can’t seem to feel sympathy for the writers in Hollywood right now. I know that I should look at the major issue, which is the fact that the writers feel they are being denied a rightful share to profits. However, when our soldiers are dying in Iraq, and Georgia is running out of water, I just don’t feel like this issue is a priority. So I might have to watch re-runs. Poor pitiful me! Of course, I might feel differently if I were one of the writers. :)

By Facts

December 4, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

just so no SouthCarolinians are offended, but the BMW plant is actually in Spartanburg County, along I-85. not quite Greenville. And definitely more SPARTANBURG.

that was probably a parable too.

By credit card

December 4, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Hello! Good site!

Thank you!

By credit card

December 4, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Hello! Good site!

Thank you!

By Gee Dubya

December 4, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

The writers are just trying to put food on their families.

By lozen

December 4, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

As much as we would all like for them to be, corporations are not human rights organizations. They are built to make money. You can yell at me for stating the obvious, but I didn�t make the rules. Exactly right. And why is that? Why has our economic model strictly separated human needs, human dignity, human rights, human growth, human caring for others from business. Why does business get a free pass? What about a different economic model based on caring and caregiving as Riane Eisler suggests in her book, “The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economy”? Why should economics be divorced from everything else? Why do we not see the things that destroy economic resources are the very same human problems that destroy humans: war, terrorism, violence, poverty, ignorance, destruction of the planet? It’s all interwoven and an economics that does not care about human beings is responsible for it causes and perpetuates the problems. And the economic model and its lack of caring seems to have taken precedence, for many, over our religious teachings, our moral heritage, our compassion toward our fellow human beings, our basic humanity.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

NNP or NTW, I can tell you what THIS conservative believes. During the late 1800’s options for workers who were mistreated were limited. Companies could do what they wanted to to workers in terms of pay and working conditions and there was very little that poor uneducated workers could do about it. Unions shined the light on those corrupt practices and companies changed. As education and training options became more available through free public schools, workers began to have more options. Labor laws changed. Public awareness about corporate practices changed.

BUT THEN, UNIONS changed. They became more corrupt than the companies they were fighting. They did more to hurt workers than the companies themselves did in some cases…especially those who disagreed with the leadership. NOW, there are more opportunities than ANYONE could have imagined even 50 years ago. Unions are dinosaurs. It is time for them to become extinct.

Think about the effect of unions on these so-called high wage manufacturing jobs:

The manufacturing sector lost more than three million jobs between 1998 and 2003, with 2.7 million lost since the immediate pre-recession year of 2000.

Companies can make more money by sending these jobs overseas than they can by hiring American workers. I don’t think this would be the case if:

1) Unions didn’t exist

2) Government regulations were loosened up a bit to a more common sense approach. Nothing that would make working less safe, but just a lot of the nitpicky red tape type regulations.

3) Workers took pride in what they do and companies showed more loyalty to employees

By chuck

December 4, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Why has our economic model strictly separated human needs, human dignity, human rights, human growth, human caring for others from business. Why does business get a free pass?

For 2 reasons dufus:

1) This is a FREE COUNTRY. Part of that is the freedom to not care about anyone else.

2) It works. Tell me what country you would exchange standard of living with? We have the highest standard of living in the WORLD. If you are poor in America IN MOST CASES, it’s because of decisions YOU MADE. When we all understand that, people will pay more attention to the things WE KNOW make the difference, like hard work, perseverence and education.

By Anonymous

December 4, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Why should we “understand” a false assumption like that, Chuck? “The poor deserve to suffer” is a very old concept—in fact, it was popular during the Gilded Age you seem to revere more than Jesus.

Corporations don’t get any freedoms: PEOPLE do. When you understand which one should have more freedom and more authority over the other, you’ll be on your way to a better society.

By Lily Toad

December 4, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

No, Chuck, it’s because the US is a CAPITALIST COUNTRY, that is the reason for your entire post. Captitalist countries must have a lower class and an upper class for the system to work. It has nothing to do with the “freedom to not care.” All countries have that freedom — dictatorships, monarchies, etc.

By lozen

December 4, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

If you are poor in America IN MOST CASES, it�s because of decisions YOU MADE. It’s more complicated than that. There are so many things we have no control over: the situation you’re born into (rich or poor, educated family or uneducated). There’s your genetic heritage and all the things that can go wrong in the human body - whether you’re healthy or not. There’s your IQ, and your emotional makeup. It’s what you learn from your parents, your teachers, your religious instructors. Sometimes it’s being in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time. But you certainly are free to believe you did it all on your own and to have no compassion for those who aren’t as fortunate.

“Well, if they’re dying because they don’t have insurance, too bad. They shouldn’t have made those errors in judgment 10 years ago!” “Who cares if the 5 kids have to share one bed in a motel room and if they get sick can’t go to see the doctor? It’s their fault anyway. They made the decisions that made them poor!”

You are a true enigma Chuck. You claim to be a christian but you don’t follow the basic teachings of Jesus. “Do unto others….” “If a man ask for your cloak, give him your coat also….” “Love your neighbor as yourself…..”

And, as usual, on issues that take some imagination you just don’t get it. (It’s easy to see why you say creative work is no different from work that isn’t creative.) Eisler is proposing a new economics based on the importance, the necessity, of caring and caregiving. This isn’t happening at present in any country. It’s just a little seed in the consciousness of some compassionate humans. I knew you wouldn’t get it.

By chuck

December 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

ANUSymous,NOBODY said the poor deserve to suffer pinhead. What I did say was that we ALL have to live with the decisions that we make. I have students that I can already tell you are going to fail for the year and they will have to go to summer school. It doesn’t matter how much extra help I offer them, whether or not I call their parents or how much time I spend trying to find some way to motivate them. They will fail. They won’t fail because they lack ability either. They will fail because video games or skateboarding or talking on the phone or spending time on my space is more important to them than education. Some will just simply not do the work required to pass to the next grade.

At the end of the year when this fact finally dawns on them, it will be too late. I’ll be kind and loving when they come to me, but I won’t change the grade. As a CONSERVATIVE I care too much about them to do that. You see, I want them to actually LEARN the material. I also want them to learn the value of hard work, perseverance, and an education. I talk to my advisement group about making good choices so they don’t end up living with their parents when they are 40. I give them the tools that they will need to be successful, but the problem is a tool that never leaves the toolbox is useless.

You may also note, that our system is called a FREE ENTERPRISE system. Corporations are owned by PEOPLE who have the freedom to make the choices that I mentioned in that post. People have freedoms but they DON’T have the freedom to tell other PEOPLE how they should run the businesses that they own. The government should not have that power or authority either EXCEPT where it crosses into matters of public safety. Anything else is CALLED SOCIALISM which some of you equate to name-calling. The problem is if it quacks like a duck…

As I said, What country do you want to trade standards of living with? It looks like we are trying to become Mexico right now. What a joy that is. Nobody has EVER come up with a better system because short of mass frontal lobotomies, human nature is not going to change. Lazy people like you are always going to want to leech off of the hard-working people that make this country what it is.

Lily Toad I love you to death, but your statement is just not true. A rising tide lifts ALL boats as the saying goes. There is no requirement that we have a permanent lower class. That’s just silly. BUT, if you had to be poor, would you rather be poor in America or poor in the Sudan? Having traveled extensively in both URBAN AMERICA, Europe, and south and central America/Mexico, I can tell you that our poor have a MUCH higher standard of living than the poor in Hungary, Romania, the Ukraine, Guatemala, Columbia and Mexico. HANDS DOWN.

By No-talent Writer

December 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Nicely put, Lozen!

By chuck

December 4, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

Lozen, you really don’t have to tell me about being poor. I grew up in ABJECT poverty. It was primarily because neither of my parents had high school educations, and we had a lot of medical bills. My father worked 2 jobs to pay those bills off and to provide for his wife and 5 children. For several years we would be lucky if we were able to eat meat once a week. We lived off of dry beans and cornbread. We didn’t get food stamps, welfare or ANY type of government assistance, not even an earned income tax credit. I started working when I was 12 and determined in my heart that I would get an education and do my best to take care of my family.

I didn’t even have any bootstraps to pull myself up by.

As for compassion for the poor, I sure don’t need any lectures from you. My whole family volunteers in some of the poorest communities in Georgia as well as myself having been on mission trips to several very poor areas of the world to take food and clothing and to help medical teams who volunteered their time and abilities to help the poor as well.

You would not believe the change that has occurred in former eastern bloc countries now that CAPITALISM is taking hold. In one place in particular that I go to every year it is absolutely remarkable how much OUR system of free enterprise has raised the standard of living. They sure did not have these opportunities under the communists/socialists. Economic freedom EQUALS political freedom. You cannot have one without the other.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 8:21 AM | Link to this

lozen

Another fine sermon. I certainly understand why liberals hate preachers. While you all seem to want to preach, most of you are just not very good at it. Most religious preachers have learned how to preach to people, but you guys tend to preach AT people. Big difference.

If you are going to be socialist evangelicals, then you need to improve your delivery. I would suggest watching Sunday morning preaching shows on local TV. Screwy Lewis FarraKKKan is on channel 24, People TV. Man, that guy can preach.

But no, I can’t take the time to educate you as to all the bills passed by both parties that have taken away the protections of our workers. NAFTA was the first but there have been several others.

But in your little sermon, you preached the party line that there is only the poor and our entire society should be here to take care of the poor.

The people who invest in those companies and the people who benefit from those horrible capitalist companies are people, too. And they are usually people with a strong work ethic, have a strong desire to take care of their family and as unbelievable as it may seem: might just be liberals, too. But more importantly, they far outnumber the poor that you think the companies are mistreating.

This country is made up of hard working people, who like to be rewarded for their hard work. This isn’t Somolia where few people have a chance. Everyone here CAN make a good living. And those eeeeevil corporations are the reason for that.

By Anonymous

December 5, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

More black-and-white thinking from the bumper-sticker conservatives, I see. “If you do ANYTHING to recognize workers’ rights or care for the poor, that’s socialism!”

What nonsense. Whose standard of living would I like, Chuck? How about Sweden’s—or Norway’s? How about even the U.K.? Do they have the exact same flavor of ‘economic freedom’ that you’re pushing here? Of course not. It’s not “Unregulated capitalism or third-world dictatorships—those are the choices.” There are more options than that—ones that the free-market cheerleaders don’t want you to see.

We already have a “mixed” economy, Chuck—one with plenty of government meddling in the so-called sanctity of the free market. The problem is, all that meddling is in one direction, to favor CEOs and stockholders.

If we let corporations call the tune and act as though they can do as they please (i.e., always in their own interests), OF COURSE workers and consumer will get shafted. Which is exactly why we DON’T allow that. We’re the ones who decide where, how, and whether corporations are permitted to do business here, including whether they have access to our marketplace and consumer dollars.

You’ve got to get over this notion that corporations have all the power, Chuck. They really don’t.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

iozen It�s just a little seed in the consciousness of some compassionate humans. I knew you wouldn�t get it.

Ahhhh. More of the mantra. Only “we”. The chosen few that have the compassion to preach at others about helping the poor.

Pardon me, but this is BS. If you were really concerned about the poor, you would be spending this time helping the poor instead of spending your time to come here to preach at others.

Do you really need to try this hard in order to quit feeling guilty?

It is always so amusing to me when many liberals are shamed into actually doing something to really help the poor instead of just running their mouth. They always quickly find that there are simply no “progressive” organizations that help the poor.

Churches help the poor. Most of the world’s great charitable organizations were started by churches. Even the Hosea Williams Thanksgiving event is co-sponcered by CHURCHES from all over the region. A lot of Democratic Politicians show up to have their picture taken serving food, but look closely at who paid for the food. Chances are, it was a church member.

Chuck is telling you that he goes to other parts of the world with his church and their selfless work is improving the lives of people, but you are so caught up in giving your sermon that you didn’t even catch it. Are you taking the time from your life to do those sorts of things?

My mother’s church is constantly feeding the poor. Every church I have ever been involved with, no matter how poor the church is, has a consistent and dependable program to feed the less fortunate.

I get so sick of the hypocritical preaching.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

What have I said that could possibly give ANY SANE PERSON the idea that I think corporations “have all the power”. In fact, the opposite is true. Employees have all the power. If they don’t think that their employer is treating them fairly they can leave and go to another company or they can take the employer to court. SO ANUSymous, who tells you what you can do with YOUR PROPERTY. The only power we should have over the PROPERTY of other people’s companies is whether or not we desire to do business with them.

I don’t like the fact that a despicable dictator like Chavez owns gas stations in the United States. I therefore do not buy my gas at CITGO stations. AT&T supports gay rights so I don’t use their services for my home phone or for my cell phones or long distance. That’s how the free market works. If you don’t like how Wal-Mart treats its employees, then don’t shop there and let the management know why you aren’t shopping there. In other words, put your money where your mouth is.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

We already have a �mixed� economy, Chuck�one with plenty of government meddling in the so-called sanctity of the free market. The problem is, all that meddling is in one direction, to favor CEOs and stockholders.

sing it!!!

oh, and as for Chuck’s (idiotic, as usual) assertion that the US has the highest standard of living … he must not get out of the country much. The UK is great - not only do we have lovely, large green spaces in our major cities, we have a vibrant economy (the pound is currently pummeling the dollar and our unemp. rate is only 0.8% higher than the US), and we have health care for everyone. We also have standard vacation packages for full-time workers that START at 21 days and maternity leave with full pay for 6 months (as well as 2-week paternity leave). We’re a couple of hours from Paris by train … a couple of hours from Rome by plane.

Oh, and we have national leaders on both sides of the aisle with the ability to put sentences together that contain both nouns AND verbs.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

William Anderson, an adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute, teaches economics at Frostburg State University.

One of the enduring myths of the “Third Way” welfare state is that a nation as a whole can have a high standard of living—even if no one really has to work—as long as government transfers massive amounts of wealth from those who are well off to those who are less well off. For the past four decades, we have been inundated with news stories, books, and public commentary, all of which have exhorted us to be like Sweden.

The Swedes, we have been told, enjoy free medical care, generous welfare benefits, time off from work, and subsidies for just about everything. When one counters that Swedes pay enormously high taxes, the standard reply is, “That is true, but look at what they receive for their payments.”

According to a recent study, however, the cat is out of the bag. Relative to household in the United States, Swedish family income is considerably less. In fact, the study concludes, average income in Sweden is less than average income for black Americans, which comprise the lowest-income socioeconomic group in this country.

The research came from the Swedish Institute of Trade, which, according to Reuters, “compared official U.S. and Swedish statistics on household income as well as gross domestic product, private consumption and retail spending per capita between 1980 and 1999.”

The premises of the welfare state are as follows: (1) free markets, if not regulated by the state, lead to continuing inequality, as wealth becomes increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few people, while more and more people become poorer; (2) the only way to combat this problem is for the state to take a large portion of earnings from the wealthy and distribute it among others; and (3) such distribution actually enables the economy to grow, since growing concentration means that fewer people will have the ability to consume the products that are created within a private-market system.

Karl Marx developed the first premise into his theories, calling this the “internal contradiction” of capitalism. However, the statement contains its own internal contradictions, as it creates an impossible scenario.

As Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard have pointed out, in a private-market society, individuals cannot gain wealth unless they produce goods that are demanded by large numbers of people. For example, it was Henry Ford who became rich producing cars, not the producers of early luxury automobiles that were accessible only to the wealthiest people in American society. Ford developed a method in which he could create cars that most people could afford, yet keep his costs low enough to where he could still make a profit. The most successful producers in our economy have been those people who make goods accessible to people across all socioeconomic levels.

Wal-Mart, which is another example, became the largest corporation in this country—and one of the most successful—by creating a retail system that would enable large numbers of people to conveniently do their shopping. In fact, Wal-Mart began its route to success by building discount stores in rural areas and small towns that were shunned by larger department stores and enterprises like the now-bankrupt Kmart.

Therefore, it seems that if producers are becoming wealthier, it can only occur if consumers are purchasing on a large scale what the the producers are producing. The first statement justifying the welfare state does not have a good causal mechanism, for it does not explain how this transfer of wealth from poor to rich takes place, especially since it makes the implicit assumption that the voluntary purchase of goods is actually a wealth transfer. Such a statement turns the age-old theory of exchange—that economic exchanges create mutual beneficiaries—upon its head.

If anything, wealth transfers inhibit economic growth, not increase it. For one, it violently penalizes entrepreneurs for being successful. By accusing those who create wealth of actually being the ones who destroy wealth, welfarists do violence to language itself. If enough people are punished for creating wealth, less wealth will be created in the future. The more government impedes the creation and distribution of wealth, the less that will be created, which means that those people who are on the margins—that is, those who are less productive—are the first to be hurt. Thus, the welfare state actually makes the poor worse off in the long run.

This notion that the welfare state actually “helps” an economy is also bogus. As I stated earlier, consumption of goods must first take place before producers can reap the rewards from creating them. Furthermore, welfare regimes that attack business enterprises by confiscating their profits also impede future capital formation.

This became quite apparent to me in 1982 when I went to Central Europe, including what was then East Berlin, the capital of the former communist East Germany. While East Berlin was likened to being the “Paris” of the then-communist world, it was more like a huge time warp in which one was placed back in 1948. The entire city was shabby, and what new construction there was had the appearance and attractiveness of a typical American public housing project.

While the western portion of Germany was better kept and more modern than its eastern counterpart, it was still like traveling back to the 1960s. West Germany had a well-developed welfare state by then, having shunned its earlier model as an engine of free enterprise. A close friend who is a dentist brought this point home to me.

Like other medical care, dentistry in Germany is run on socialist principles. That means that individuals do not pay directly for dental (or medical) care, which is provided by the state. My friends, who were vacationing in Germany, visited a number of dental offices and found that the facilities looked like dentist offices in the United States four decades ago. In other words, the German dentists are still depending upon old capital.

One of the worst aspects of socialism, economically speaking, is that it has the perverse tendency to turn new capital from an asset—as is the case in a free-market economy—into a liability. German dentists have no incentive to purchase more modern equipment, since it is expensive and patients have nowhere else to go. In fact, wherever socialist medicine has been practiced for a long time, one can readily see deterioration of capital stock.

For many years, Sweden, like its European counterparts, has been eating its capital stock instead of replenishing it. Some high-profile Swedish companies like Volvo have been able to remain well capitalized, but even those companies are now finding it more attractive to locate in other nations, where their profits are not so readily confiscated.

The Swedes and other northern Europeans are somewhat lucky in that they have had a relatively high standard of living. People in southern European nations like Italy and Spain—where high taxes and vast regulatory agencies abound—find themselves to be much poorer and with no prospects of real improvement.

Unfortunately, many Europeans (like our Canadian neighbors) believe that a vast welfare apparatus makes them morally superior to nations that do not have the same scope of benefits. (While one can point out that the United States has a huge welfare bureaucracy itself, it does not offer the same “generous,” long-term benefits of the European states.) While they prattle on about their moral superiority and their egalitarianism, however, something else is happening. They are slowly becoming poorer and poorer, and the welfare state cannot save them. It can only accelerate their downward slide.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

The U.S. has the lowest tax rate among all the industrialized nations.

The U.S. has the HIGHEST PURCHASING POWER

The U.S. has the HIGHEST worker PRODUCTIVITY.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

USinUK

I’ve been to Rome. Nice place. I’ve been to Nevis. Nicer.

I’ve seen the standard of living in London and I’ve seen the standard of living in Miami. I would take Miami or San Diego or Denver or New York or Atlanta.

Europe is OK. I don’t like the open racism or in most countries, the smell. Europe is like anywhere else, if you have the money, you can have that Villa with the view of the Coliseum at sunset, but chances are, your view is the side of yet another tiny, old, smelly expensive apartment.

I’ve seen your 1940’s era health clinics that distribute drugs that haven’t been used here in years. i’ve been to Europe … a lot. It is very charming. If you have money, it is very nice. If you don’t, it is worse than the US and colder than hell.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

http://www.namyth.com/SocialismWORKS!/index.php?sw=Sweden#crazypeoplehome

The unfortunate in Sweden often don’t roam the streets aimlessly, in fact, few are often found. That’s because the state subsidizes them to live in optimal conditions and to provide little work - and if they are put into labor, it’s in a public enterprise run by the government, to help reduce the official share of unemployed people. Workers can earn up to 570 paid days off a year (that’s no typo - we know there are only 365 days a year - Swedes can earn more paid days off than days they actually work). So where are the poor, crazy, reckless people of Sweden? Living off Swedish tax money and taking up their inequitable residence in Swedish neighborhoods, and growing in numbers since the financial prosperity of the cradle-to-grave system doesn’t discourage their lacklazy habits. They are often joined by productive Swedish citizens who simply take time off, after “earning” years of unemployment benefits. These categories, since they are subsidized, are not officially considered “unemployed” in most Swedish statistics, even though both demographics do no actual work. After making the observation that loons don’t wander the streets of Sweden, P.J. O’Rourke commented in his book “Eat the Rich” - “The last time I walked through Gamla Stan, I didn’t wonder where the crazy people were. In Sweden the craziness is redistributed fairly. They’re all a little crazy.”

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

The history of Swedish domestic relations is chock full of civil rights abuses. 62,000 Swedes were forcibly sterilized by the Swedish government over a 40 year period, until 1974, by government researchers who judged families as being “racially inferior”. These sterilizations included both the parents and their children. During this time period, a Swedish Television documentary revealed that Sweden lobotomized at least 500 “undesirables”, in some cases without the consent of their families, and that lobotomizations may have numbered up to 4,500 people. These practices predated and surpassed the era of Nazi Germany.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Education is universally free in Sweden, and like other free government-sponsored systems, it’s on the verge of financial collapse and decay. Per student Sweden pays an average of $7,000 a year, while the 9 years of elementary schooling is required, high school and further education is not. Students receive financial benefits for continuing to high school, in the form of about $100 a month, although by college most people have got weaned on the Swedish unemployment system. Some High School students teach Elementary school, while Colleges teach what Swedish High Schools did 15 years ago, showing the recent decline in the quality of Swedish education. To solve unemployment figures, many unemployed people are forced into menial courses to change their status from “unemployed” to “student”, illustrating the general sense of misuse of the Swedish education system.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Chuck …

Low tax rates don’t necessarily equal high standard of living. Especially when most people can’t afford things like health care.

And since when does high worker productivity equal high standard of living? High productivity doesn’t mean you’ll live in a nicer house, have plenty to eat and shoes for your kids. It just means you produce more at less cost (the value of output per unit of input).

By chuck

December 5, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Swedes often argue that their system is not Socialism, since only a fourth of the Swedish main lines of production are owned by the government. However, this is in light of the government owning 70% of the Swedish Gross National Product, and controlling the direction of industry through heavy regulation. By mandating who can provide what products and services, and controlling media, education and public utilities, Sweden definitely has found a “Third Way” between Capitalism and Socialism - that way, of course, being to fake Capitalism, where the Socialist goals of redistribution of wealth and products are realized without calling most industry “publicly owned”. This same trick of a “Mixed Economy” is used by Socialist economists all around the world to help give government progressive control over trade.

The lesson of the Third Way? Free trade is not free just because someone calls it “free”.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

It sounds like you’re assuming I live in a villa - OH, how I wish!!! I don’t - just a middle-class person, doing my 9-5 during the day and living my life. I just think it’s better here.

You want cold? two words: Hartford. Connecticut. Gah.

You want tiny, smelly apartments? Manhattan.

You want cockroaches large enough to hijack a VW? Miami (I love the city, don’t get me wrong … but the bugs!! eeeeesh)

You want overt racism? Honey, I was born and raised in the south, lived a couple of years in the North, have traveled all over the States and am now in London. I haven’t seen a lick of difference between any of them.

1940s health clinics?? Um, I don’t know where you saw that, but the doctors offices I’ve seen are as clean and high-tech as any I’ve seen in the states (and, believe it or not, the dentistry I’ve had here was better than in the states).

I grew up outside Atlanta … and have seen the city I love lose its fantastic forests, choosing to bulldoze them for McMansions. I’ve seen the air quality turn progressively browner. And have seen the number of cars on the road grow exponentially - without a thought to improving pedestrian ways and mass trans (I’m not talking PATH, I’m talking sidewalks). Again, GAH.

I think that, if you look around the states, you’ll see just as many examples of poverty, segregation, and smelliness as you’d find in Europe (check out East St. Louis sometime - right in the center of the country - yuck). It just depends on how you measure standard of living - I think it means having health care for all, green spaces, and a positive work environment that supports families.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Why do the really wealthy Europeans come to the Caribbean to vacation? They have Rome?

We all know why. After that first two hours of being blown away that you are actually in Rome, there are only so many ruins you can walk through.

Everyone should go to Europe. Hell, I think every American should have to deal with getting a medical problem solved by that horrible bureaucratic mess you call a health system. I think every American should bring back a prescription and have the local pharmacist call other drug stores to try and find anyone old enough to remember what the drug they prescribed for you is used for. It happened to me. I went to my local doctor and he told me that you couldn’t even buy that drug in the states anymore.

Since then, I have spent my time in Europe in misery, to keep from going back to one of their medevil health clinics.

By lozen

December 5, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

This foaming at the mouth and screaming is funny. Isn’t it amazing how in their minds there are only two choices: capitalism or socialism? (Used to be capitalism or communism but that changed!) Riane Eisler is not proposing socialism. She’s proposing an entirely new economic system based on caring and caregiving. Of course to them that has to be socialism. She’s proposing an economics that reflects real life and what is truly important. None of us would be here without caring and caregiving. You rabid conservatives are so afraid of anything new. It’s truly amazing.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

What a stupid statement:

Especially when most people can�t afford things like health care.

Since when is 10% of the population MOST PEOPLE? You want to talk about idiotic…there it is.

For the life of me I cannot understand why you people are so intent on tearing down America. You Liberals are the most pessimistic people I have ever heard of in my entire life. You all sound like my Aunt “Martha” (name changed to protect the innocent). My Aunt Martha could have won the lottery and she would have complained that she didn’t have any place to keep the money.

I swear, if I thought as little of America as some of you, there is NO WAY I WOULD STAY HERE. It’s ludicrous to imagine being so unhappy in a place as you all appear to be, when any of you could certainly emmigrate to one of these countries you admire so much. It is quite unlikely that their quotas for immigration have been met…UNLIKE THE U.S. USinUK…PLEASE STAY in the UK. You deserve each other. While I value the alliances between our countries and would love to visit the homeland of my ancestors, I would never live there, but you feel free to.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

Why do the rich go to the Caribbean rather than Rome? More places to park their yacht, I would imagine.

If you want to compare lifestyles of the Euro-rich and famous and the American rich and famous, then, I think we will have completely lost sight of the discussion.

We were talking basic standards of living. I’m sorry you had such a difficult time with whatever medical problem you had when you were here. I’ve had a fantastic experience - doctor’s office is nearby, you can get same-day service, they do house calls for new mothers and the elderly, the medication I need is �10 (and it’s the same meds I used in the States). I’ve had to jump through no worse hoops getting referrals here than I did with my US insurance company.

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth

December 5, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

Georgia will get more insourcing. Thankfully, the governor is trying to get more Chinese investment. We Georgians should want more free trade!We should be competetive with other states and nations. Unions are a kep to prosperity. I am a Ga. liberal!

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

British children: poorer, at greater risk and more insecure � UN puts UK bottom of 21 advanced nations � ‘A crisis at heart of our society’ - children’s commissioner

Sarah Boseley, health editor The Guardian, Wednesday February 14 2007
Children smoke outside a shop in Bristol. Photograph: Matt Cardy/Getty

Children growing up in the United Kingdom suffer greater deprivation, worse relationships with their parents and are exposed to more risks from alcohol, drugs and unsafe sex than those in any other wealthy country in the world, according to a study from the United Nations.

The UK is bottom of the league of 21 economically advanced countries according to a “report card”’ put together by Unicef on the wellbeing of children and adolescents, trailing the United States which comes second to last.

Today’s findings will be a blow to the government, which has set great store by lifting children out of poverty and improving their education and prospects. Al Aynsley Green, the children’s commissioner for England, acknowledges that the UN has accurately highlighted the troubled lives of children. “There is a crisis at the heart of our society and we must not continue to ignore the impact of our attitudes towards children and young people and the effect that this has on their wellbeing,” he says in a response today.

“I hope this report will prompt us all to look beyond the statistics and to the underlying causes of our failure to nurture happy and healthy children in the UK. These children represent the future of our country and from the findings of this report they are in poor health, unable to maintain loving and successful relationships, feel unsafe and insecure, have low aspirations and put themselves at risk.

“It is time to stop demonising children and young people for what goes wrong and start supporting them to make positive choices. To bring an end to the confusing messages we give to young people about their role, responsibility and position in society and ensure that every child feels valued and has their rights respected.”

The Unicef team assessed the treatment of children in six different areas - material wellbeing; health and safety; educational wellbeing, family and peer relationships, behaviours and risks; and the young people’s own perceptions of their wellbeing.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

The UK takes bottom place “by a considerable distance” for the number of young people who smoke, abuse drink and drugs, engage in risky sex and become pregnant at too early an age. For 16 out of 17 OECD countries with the data, between 15% and 28% of young people have had sex by the age of 15. For the UK, the figure is 40%.

On education, the UK comes 17th out of 21. At the age of 15, British children score relatively well on reading, mathematical and scientific literacy. But more than 30% of 15- to 19-year-olds are not in education or training and are not looking beyond low-skilled work.

By lozen

December 5, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

UsinUk, you don’t really think either of the die-hard conservatives are going to take the word of someone who actually lives there do you? They’ve already pegged you as a socialist anyway so nothing you say is important! It does sound wonderful to me and would be such a blessing to never worry about health care for your children, to be able to take off long enough to have a child and get to know that child and still have a job to go back to, to have enough time to get away from work, see the world, travel, spend more than a week or two vacationing (if you even have that) with your family each year. It sounds wonderful to have business and gov’t put their money where our mouth is: supporting families. If they want to call it socialism, that’s fine. There are things more important than making more and more and more money.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

USinUK

You got my point. Standard of living is all about what part of the country, any country you can afford.

My experience with a London Health Clinic was that I was prescribed an anti-biotic that had been pulled in the US. The clinic was clean, but it was smelly and crowded. That’s my experience.

I also was raised io the south while the democrats were in charge. My schools in Tennessee were integrated, in spite of the rantings of Al Gore’s dad.

But they don’t run things here, anymore. Republicans are in charge and the South is integrated. Some parts of the North, like South Boston is still very Racist and segregated, but as long as they have the same leaders that the South had, they will stay segregated.

But that was 1968. I was in Paris this summer and couldn’t believe how many skin heads I saw. They were everywhere. I have never seen the swastika so much in my entire life.

On that same trip, I was in a small town outside of Amtsterdam called Zaanstad. We drove up on two skin heads being arrested for beating the crap out of an Indian guy. Racial tension was talked about in Northern Europe more than any other single topic. It was becoming a huge problem in some cities, but a friend I communicate with said that the cold weather had calmed the tension down, at least for the winter.

I hate bugs, too. But I spent some winters in the mid west and upstate NY. I am really working hard to retire on St. Croix. Bugsbedamned. (That would make a good website!)

I like Europe, but I love this country. And not because it is America Ta-ta-ta-ta-ta. But because it really is anything you want it to be. I spend hours on Google Earth, just looking at places. Watching the sunset at Pacific Beach in San Diego is right up there with walking through the ruins of the Parthenon. I actually prefer the ruins of the Maya on the Yucatan like Coba. Anything or anywhere is what you make it.

By lozen

December 5, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Do not dare point out that anything could improve, change, be better in the US. Do not dare point out anything that is done better anywhere else in the world! That makes you an America Hater. Love it or leave it! You must see that the US is perfect. Perfect I say. Either say it’s perfect or get out! Jeez. How juvenile.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

USinUK

You got me on the US Insurance companies. They stink. Mine is alright, but I rarely get sick. (knock on wood) That is if I stay out of Europe. LOL

The point I was making aoout the Caribbean is that you don’t need to be a rich American to travel all around the Caribbean.

I see a lot of Americans that just have little good to say about this country. I have found few places here that I didn’t like, although I must admit, Atlanta is becoming more and more, one of those places.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Lozen, Lozen, Lozen…You live in a fantasy world already. What percentage of Europeans do you think “travel the world”? The poor in Europe are not like you. They are REALLY POOR. Europe just does a better job of hiding them. In what kind of world should I BE FORCED TO PAY FOR YOU TO GO ON VACATION? No wonder this country has so many liberals…you all think that if ya’ll are in charge all the rich people will just write checks and hand over their money so you can lay around on your lazy butt on the beach somewhere. You are a fool.

PLEASE JOIN USinUK. There are flights leaving every couple of hours.

By Family Values

December 5, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

A family doctor for EVERY family!

How could we not support that in America, the best goll-dang country on the planet?

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

lozen

No one likes to be preached at. I see you got my point.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

The adjusted population attributable fraction for poor material standard of living (using a five item index) was 24.0%. Conclusion-Like mortality and physical morbidity, common mental disorders are associated with a poor material standard of living, independent of occupational social class. These findings support the view that recent widening of inequalities in material standards of living in the United Kingdom pose a substantial threat to health.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2142303

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Chuck … you’re right. Silly me … more than 50 million people can’t afford health care - with that number growing every year as fewer companies providing coverage - and I am crazy enough to think that’s a lot of people.

BTW, that’s 50 million more people without health care than here in the UK or in Europe.

And I love how you judge the UK and Europe without having ever been here. Are there problems here? Of course there are - teenagers drink and use drugs and get pregnant, the education system needs help. Last time I checked, I could have sworn those things were a problem in the US, too (hello, crystal meth, access to guns, and the highest teen pregnancy rate of the industrial nations). Or has everything been fixed and is in perfect working order, now?? I must’ve missed that FOX news special.

Am I pessimistic about the US?? With this current administration, yes I am. I hate - HATE - what W has done to my country (and, yes, it is still MY country). I hate Guantanamo Bay. I hate military tribunals that hold people as suspects despite intel agencies clearing them. I hate Abu Ghraib. I hate the Iraq war. I hate that the US feels it can ignore legal extradition and kidnap suspects of a crime. I hate the lies he has recently passed off about Iran. I hate the class warfare that the GOP has waged on the middle class to benefit the rich. I hate the browning of my beautiful country. I hate that AMERICANS are arguing whether or not simulated drowning is torture. And I hate warrantless wiretaps.

Go ahead - chalk that up to BDS if you want. That’s all you mindless W proles do, rather than actually examine the merits of the what’s being said.

The next holder of the White House is going to have to contend with an anemic economy, screamingly high gas prices, god-only-knows WHAT situation in the middle east, China pretty much owning the economy, a constitution in tatters and a world that trusts the US about as far as they can throw it.

It wasn’t that way when W got the keys.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

lozen

Yes. If either one of us had said anything even related to that, it would have been a juvenile statement.

But we didn’t.

But you did.

Now who is being juvenile?

By chuck

December 5, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Lozen, I mean this with all sincerity. You really need to go to night school and get a degree in something besides basket weaving or general studies or whatever it is that liberals go to college for and get the skills necessary to make a little money. It is very unseemly for you to be so jealous of the wealthy (which to you apparently means anyone who makes more than $30,000), when you have the ability to become part of that group. In other words, instead of sitting around on your lazy butt complaining, get out and do something to improve your life. Once you actually work to have something, you won’t be quite so eager to have it taken away.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Family Values

Why stop with just a family doctor?

I’m thinking a beach house for every family.

Maybe with a small helicopter and a boat.

A big boat.

A big boat that runs on solar power.

And the beach house runs on solar power, too.

And a solar powered mono-rail that goes stright to the family doctor’s office.

Yea, man. I’m right there with you.

By No-talent Writer

December 5, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

… liberals… you all think that if ya�ll are in charge all the rich people will just write checks and hand over their money so you can lay around on your lazy butt on the beach somewhere.

I’m sorry. Could you please cite your source for this information? I checked MoveOn, GreenPeace, the NAACP, ACLU, UAW and the NEAA websites, as well as the campaign sites of Clinton, Obama, Kucinich, Gravel, Edwards, and Dodd, the DNC and the Georgia Democratic Party, and could find no reference to this being a platform or mission statement anywhere. Further, all the liberals I know are at work right now, even me, a lazy blogger (except Daddy, who’s semi-retired after a lifetime of hard work and paying taxes.)

Can you verify that statement, or did you pull it out of your prolific hiney?

You are a fool. Keep talking, Teacher. You have our full attention now.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Hi Lozen!

Thanks for your support. :-)

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Just in case you wondered, I really believe that we need a better health care safety net in the US, set up much like our nutrition safety net.

I just don’t want the same people that I get my car tags from being in charge of my medical care. That’s the problem I have with European care. It is a bureaucratic nightmare. I think we need some sort of heath care assistance, but I do not belive that we should turn our health care industry over to the government.

It would require a compromise that would not involve the insurance companies making more money so it will never happen.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

Awww … if I wasn’t married to a cutie-pie-Limey, that would totally win me over!! :-) I do love America - for many of the same reasons. And, even on occasion, because it IS America ta-ta-ta-ta … especially when the Olympics are on!

I just can’t STAND when people do the “Murica is the best place on the earth EVER … and if you can’t stand it, get out”. which, btw, is precisely what Chuck said (scroll up).

Loving a country is great - but it’s a lot like loving your spouse - you gotta acknowledge the faults as well as embrace the good.

By Simple simple mind

December 5, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Yes this is troo. Axing to be abul to take yer kid to the docter whin he has a earacke is the exakt same thin as axing for a beech hous for free. Ther is no diffrince. Comuninks and soshulinks who care about sick kidz totaly suck. You lazy lib pinko suck azz fornucaping welfair quen luvin commees make Amurickkka a sukie place why don you all leeev so we kan go bak to beeing the paradice we were befour you were born. God bles ‘murica.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

Excuse me, USSRinUK, while I haven’t been to England, I have been to Romania, Hungary, France, Austria, Germany, The Ukraine, and Moldova. I go to Europe EVERY year and have for years. I have also been to Mexico, Canada, Guatemala, Columbia and Nicaraugua. This year I will also be going to Argentina. I know being a liberal elitist, you assume that some poor conservative teacher has never been anywhere, but that just isn’t true.

As for your other assumptions, again you are caught up in your stereotypical view of conservatives. I am not as much of a fan of the President as I used to be. I still think he was much better than the alternatives these past 2 election cycles, but I disagree with him about many things.

AND, as for your little laundry list of ills, it is typical liberalism to concentrate on coddling criminals and terrorists. I guess you also think that it is our fault we were attacked on 9-11. Face it, there is NOTHING this President has done or could do that you would agree with because he is a Republican. It really is as simple as that.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

USinUK

Awww � if I wasn�t married to a cutie-pie-Limey, that would totally win me over!! :-) I do love America - for many of the same reasons. And, even on occasion, because it IS America ta-ta-ta-ta � especially when the Olympics are on!

Ok. Note to self. To be stored in the “try this one, it worked before” folder.

I am also a Ta-ta-ta-ta guy. But yes, we have some problems.

When I travel, I need to take enough gear to fill a small van. It’s just what i do. So last year, I finally got tired of shipping my stuff and bought a Volvo Wagon. (As I have said: I hate SUVs.) So now I drive almost anywhere to avoid shipping. I drove to LA in August. I would have given anything to have shared that with my kids. One just moved out of state and the other who is still a teenager couldn’t go. This place is unreal.

We are very fortunate to be born here at this place and time. It is sort of like winning the lottery. Think of the chances of being born here instead of Somolia, or even worse, New Jersey!!

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

BTW, The Other Jack - if your earlier post was your platform for office, I’d vote for you!! heehee … well, except for the boat thing - I’m just as happy sitting on the shore, thankyouverymuch.

Seriously, I don’t think that THINGS are what anyone talks about when it comes to “family values that value families” (as Dan Q once said). I think it is more about time to spend with the kids, being able to take time off to take them to the GP, if necessary, without losing all your money AND vacation time. Having a living wage that enables you to feed and clothe them. Having a higher education system that doesn’t break the bank would be nice, as well.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

I have also BTW, traveled to 40 of the 50 states and in all of my travels I have never seen a more beautiful place than America. I love this country IN SPITE of its faults, because when it comes down to it, though it may take some time, we always make things right. There is no more nobler or generous a place on earth as America.

You need to look no further than your adopted country to see that. They do still speak English there and not German don’t they?

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Simple simple mind

My Christmas prayer, every year was that everyone should be happy, wealthy and wise. It would make my trips to Kroger so much better. But then I realized that if everyone was wealthy, there would be no one working at Kroger who could ring up my groceries.

You don’t have the patent on caring that other human beings are cared for. Or that other humans are happy.

We all want the best for everyone. I would much rather we drill for oil in ANWAR and risk killing a few Caribou instead of the thousands of women and children that die in third world countries that generate the gasoline that we require. Safety standards for those refineries are non-existant. But there are those Caribou.

We all want the best for everyone. When you can lay out a working plan that will provide a family doctor for every American, that will be fair and equatable to all Americans, I will provide a working plan for the rest.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

The Other Jack -

I’m not a big fan of LA (no city center - I felt disoriented the whole time - “are we STILL in LA? man! this city goes on and on”). Now, the San Fran/San Jose area … oh. my. god. Talk about gorgeous - hills. ocean. outstanding food. really nice people. Never been south of LA, but have heard it’s fantastic.

As for driving cross-country - SA-LUTE!! I don’t think my back or behind could take it. Driving between DC and Atlanta for 8 years was enough.

I agree with you - we are blessed to be born in a country where we can have this kind of discussion - and to have the education and amenities that come with wealth, no matter how moderate. I guess I just don’t want to rest there. It’s not a “glass is half empty” thing, it’s a “we’ve come this far - let’s finish the job!!”

Chuck - I do agree with one thing W has done. The appointment of Ben Bernanke to the Fed is the best thing he has ever done for the country. Alan G is an abomination and should be driven out on a rail.

And, yes, I want to coddle/cuddle/spoon feed terrorists. That’s what all we liberals want to do, doncha know. We want them to move into our garages so we can do their laundry. We want to take them to the park and run in the tall grass.

Criminey, you’re an idiot.

In August of 2001, An NSC representative goes to TX with a memo that says “OBL determined to strike US” and W looks at him and says “well, you’ve covered your butt” and proceeds to ignore its contents and you have the unmitigated gall to say LIBERALS are soft on terrorism???

You may not care about the Constitution, but I do.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

We all want the best for everyone. When you can lay out a working plan that will provide a family doctor for every American, that will be fair and equatable to all Americans,

There can be no FAIR or EQUITABLE plan if it FORCES ME to pay for someone else’s healthcare. There is no guarantee of healthcare in our constitution, yet we have among the longest life expectancies on earth. People in Nepal live longer and they have almost NO healthcare. Hmmmmm.

By G. Clooney

December 5, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

“Go through the history of time. During the Salem witch hunt, the liberals thought there was no such thing as witches, and the conservative view was �They�re witches and they all have to die.� I don�t argue with conservatives over morality. I don�t preach morality, certainly, but I won�t be told that liberal is immoral.” — George Clooney in Rolling Stone

By chuck

December 5, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

So if you care about the Constitution I suppose you could tell me which article and section allows for:

Social Security

Welfare

Federal Involvement in ANY way in education

National Parks (as much as I love them)

Food Stamps

Americans With Disabilities Act

Family Leave Act

COBRA

Meddling in the Abortion issue

Cow Flatulence Research

The Bridge to NOWHERE

On and on.

By Newzwyre

December 5, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

http://seananderson-myjourney.blogspot.com/2007/11/old-man-and-gheto.html

a heart-rending blog post by an active duty soldier in Iraq, Sean Anderson about an incident where Anderson accidentally trashes an old Kurdish man’s car with his military truck. He breaks protocol, and gets out to apologize. He tells the old man he will repair the damage. A week later, Anderson returns to the scene of the mishap and looks for the man:

excerpt �

The old man, the elder of this part of the endless slum meets me at his door. He is doubled over, hobbling along with the aid of his cane and his son. His wife is crying and smiling, a unique combination that catches my attention. The old man didn’t appear so frail, so broken when we saw him last. But I realize in that moment, that he had never stood, he had sat in the door way and refused to move all those nights ago. He extends his frail, almost shattered looking hand that bears the scars of foregone dictator, and we shake hands. I look at him the eye, clutch his other shoulder with my free hand and say to him, “I kept my word sir. I told you that I wouldn’t do you wrong.” My interpreter and him exchange some durkas and then he replies through sammy, “I never expected an American soldier to understand his word, his promise“…

Our exchange goes on for several minutes and I lay out the details of how he is to collect the money entitled to him for our damage. In fact, the money will be enough probably to replace the entire car but I don’t tell him that, why ruin the surprise. At one point the conversation goes from business to personal and takes on an air of familiarity. This old man begins to feel not like an old man in a ghetto in some city in northern Iraq, but rather an old man, broken and impoverished by a society that moves too fast to notice, much like many of the older men and women back home…

Towards the end of our talk, that has gone from politics to sports (soccer). We even talk of our our women, he shows me pictures of his grandchildren and I show him a picture of my own heart, my lady. At the end of our time together, he pulls me in close, almost to an embrace, grabs my arm and almost in a raspy whisper says “You are a good man. You have the kindest eyes I have known in my life, too kind to be a man of soldiering. You are a man of honor and your heart is kinder than your years.”. He releases me, shakes my hand and then turns to walk back into his house. There are tears in my eyes, my legs are shaky and a strong chill startles my spine. Despite being blown -up, shot at, hated, spit at, had s** thrown at, in the middle of this ghetto in some no name neighborhood in the backwoods of a city in northern Iraq, two men met and became friends in the gravest of places. I couldn’t invent that man’s words if given all the time in the world. “You have the kindest eyes..” I will tell my girl that later on the phone and she says nothing, but I can hear the tears on her cheeks and the soft sniffle in her nose. Whats wrong baby I will ask her, why are you crying… I will never forget the old man in the slum.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

ALSO, Clinton’s forays into Somalia and Bosnia with NO NATIONAL DEFENSE Threats

Putting U.S. troops under the command of the U.N.

OSHA

and on and on.

By Lily Toad

December 5, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Chuck, if you have any kind of insurance, health, homeowners, or auto, you are forced to pay for someone else’s health care, etc. Your insurance premiums are paying for someone else’s cancer treatment, someone else’s bad driving habits, for someone’s flooded house. That’s how insurance works. I don’t understand why people who are opposed to an universal health plan don’t get that.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

USinUK

Unfortunately, I’m discouraged about the job. I’m convinced that Washington is simply all about money. That has always been the general idea, but the money used to be $10,000. Now it’s $10,000,000. And it’s legal lobby money. The only people in Washington with a lower popularity rating than the President is the entire Congress. It stinks.

I think the main reason why I am a conservative is because I believe both parties are pure slime. But in some weird way, Republicans sort of own up to being slime. Democrats pretend to be above it. but Democatic politicians get caught at the slimiest stuff. But while Republicans will eat their own, Democrats often support the slimy behavior of other Democrats.

They are all slime. I am working to go to the Virgin Islands and retire.

Well I hope you understand, I just had to go back to the islands.

And watch the sun go down. Hear the sea roll in.

And I’ll be thinking of you and how it might have been.

hear the night birds cry, watch the sunset down.

Well I hope you understand. I just had to go back to the islands.

Actually I need to go do some Christmas shopping. I’ll talk to you soon.

By Nat Turner

December 5, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

But they don�t run things here, anymore. Republicans are in charge and the South is integrated. Some parts of the North, like South Boston is still very Racist and segregated, but as long as they have the same leaders that the South had, they will stay segregated.

Is this a joke, TOJ? How is the South integrated? You were the one last week talking about walking into the Fulton County Courthouse, and seeing nothing but black people. My son goes to a school on the southside of Fulton County. 99% percent black. My daughter goes to a school on the northside of Fulton County. 90% percent white. All of our neighbors are black. My roommate from college lives in Alpharetta. He told me that not one of his neighbors in black, latino, Asian, etc.

Once again, how is the south integrated? Simply because I can go into a predominately white establishment, and purchase something?

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

The difference is that the cultural divisions in this and every other American city is by choice, not by law. Please don’t tell me that you can’t see a difference between now and 1965. If you can’t see a difference, you weren’t alive in 1965.

When was the last time a Republican governor called out the state guard to prevent Black kids from attending a public school? Orval Forbus, a Democrat sure did it. And George Wallace said that he woudd lay down in front of a school bus to keep Black kids out of University of Alabama. He ran for president as a Democrat.

I am personally against segregation, particularly in the workplace. Please join me and other fair minded citizens in working to end the racist hiring practices of affirmative action programs.

By Anonymous

December 5, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

… and thanks to civil rights reform, all the southern bigots switched over to the Republican Party, where they proudly reside today. We’ve already been over this ground, TOJ, and you can only maintain your pretense of a “color-blind” GOP by wearing blinders yourself.

Racism is alive and well… and, for the most part, it’s Republican.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

It is odd that you brought that up. That kind of voluntary segregation is not only common in the South, but in Beijing, London, Paris, Tokyo, New York, Los Angeles. Where ever people live, they tend to gravitate toward their own demographic. Companies live or die by estimating changes in demographics. Demographics is basically racial profiling, gone crazy.

That’s a fact of life.

I was a teenager during the civil rights movement. I remember adults arguing about “Separate But Equal”, but those people were considered the radical, anti-segregationists. It seemed like everyone wanted this Utopian great Society where each house was occupied by yet another race, creed, religion, sexual preference or income level. Instead we got massive ghettos where kids were not educated and white people ran to the burbs.

Separate but equal? it’s not so equal, but separate seems to be what everybody wants.

By The Other Jack

December 5, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Anonoumous.

I’m still waiting for you to list a single Democrat that came over to the party and is still alive today, other than Trent Lott.

However, Robert Byrd, a Dixiecrat that filibustered against the Voting Rights Act is still called the conscience of the Democratic Party. I guess that says alot about the democrat’s and their conscience.

Here’s an idea: Go to the forum on Delphi called Islamiphobia. See what all those wonderful people who claim to be progressives are saying about Jews. You won’t find a single Republican in that NAZI mess. All liberals. Go see for yourself.

By Lily Toad

December 5, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

TOJ, Sonny Perdue was a Democrat until about 6 years ago when he decided to run for governor. He was a Democrat when he was in the GA legislature. When he was elected, many other GA Dems changed their party affiliation, even though they were elected as Dems.

By AnotherOne

December 5, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama first ran for the U.S. Senate as a Democrat in 1994, and immediately after winning, within a few months, switched to being a member of the Republican Party.

By AnotherOne

December 5, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

In fact, Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama won as a Democrat and had switched to the GOP before he even took office in the U.S. Senate.

By Actually

December 5, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

Prescott Bush didn’t have a problem with the Nazis. They had a beautiful friendship, actually.

By AnotherOne

December 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Most INTELLIGENT national political analysts would attribute the gains of the GOP in the past ten years DIRECTLY to the fact that white Southern Democrats switched to the GOP.

By chuck

December 5, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

So you came up with 2 that switched parties 25 years after the civil rights movement.

By Here ya go Chuckster

December 5, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Wikipedia is at times inaccurate. Feel free to verify this list elsewhere:

1964 - Strom Thurmond, while U.S. senator from South Carolina 1965 - Albert Watson, while U.S. Representative from South Carolina (resigned before switching parties and re-won his seat in a special election) 1965 - Arlen Specter, while running for Philadelphia District Attorney mid 1960s - Roderick Miller 1966 - Thomas Wofford, before write-in campaign for State Senator from South Carolina 1966 - Jerry Thomasson, before running for Attorney General of Arkansas 1966 - Henry Grover, before being elected to the Texas Senate 1967 - William Dannemeyer, after leaving the California State Assembly 1967 - Allison Kolb late 1960’s - Thad Cochran, before serving as Mississippi executive director of Richard Nixon’s 1968 Presidential campaign. 1968 - Bill Archer, while a member of the Texas House of Representatives 1970 - Jesse Helms, two years before running for the U.S. Senate from North Carolina 1970 - A. C. Clemons, while serving in the Louisiana Senate 1972 - Sam Yorty, while Mayor of Los Angeles 1972 - Robert R. Neall, before serving in the Maryland House of Delegates. He switched back in 1999 1972 - Trent Lott, while running for the House of Representatives from Mississippi. He was administrative assistant to Rules Committee chairman William Colmer, who endorsed Lott as his successor despite Lott’s party switch. 1973 - Mills E. Godwin Jr., Democratic governor of Virginia from 1966 to 1970, moved to the Republican Party and was reelected, serving as governor again from 1974 to 1978. 1973 - John Connally, but wasn’t in or running for any office at the time 1975 - Elizabeth Dole, while employed by the Federal Trade Commission 1975 - John Jarman, while U.S. Representative from Oklahoma. He had served for 24 years in the House and said he was fed up with the Democratic party, which had been “taken over by liberals”. He retired in 1976. 1977 - A. J. McNamara, while serving in the Louisiana House 1977 - Lane Carson while serving in the Louisiana House 1978 - Robert G. Jones, after leaving the Louisiana Senate 1978 - Michele Bachmann, currently a U.S. Representative from Minnesota late 1970s - Thomas Bliley, after being Mayor of Richmond, Virginia, and before election to U.S. House of Representatives late 1970s - Michael F. “Mike” Thompson, while serving in the Louisiana House late 1970s - Chris Smith 1979 - Jim Gerlach, currently a U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania 1979 - Charles Grisbaum, Jr. early 1980s - Claude Allen 1980s - Mike Pence, currently a U.S. Representative from Indiana 1980s - Mel Martinez, currently a U.S. Senator from Florida 1980 - Mac Collins, while county commissioner 1980 - Jim Donelon 1980 - Jesse Monroe Knowles, while serving in the Louisiana Senate 1981 - Bob Stump, while U.S. Representative from Arizona 1981 - Eugene Atkinson, while U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania 1982 - Condoleezza Rice 1983 - Bob Martinez, while mayor of Tampa, Florida 1983 - Phil Gramm, while U.S. Representative from Texas (resigned before switching parties and re-won his seat in a special election) 1984 - Andy Ireland, while U.S. Representative from Florida 1984 - Dan Richey mid 1980s - H. Edward Knox; became an independent in 2005 1985 - Kent Hance, former U.S. Representative, after losing the Democratic U.S. Senate nomination in Texas 1985 - Jock Scott 1985 - Carole Keeton Strayhorn, now State Comptroller of Texas (she ran for Texas Governor as an independent in 2006) 1986 - Richard Baker, before winning a House seat in Louisiana 1987 - Paul Hardy, before running for Lieutenant-Governor of Louisiana 1988 - Jim McCrery, while running for U.S. Representative from Louisiana. He had been a staff member for Buddy Roemer, but switched parties before the special election after Roemer was elected governor. 1988 - David Duke 1989 - Edward Vrdolyak, before running for Mayor of Chicago 1989 - Bill Grant, while U.S. Representative from Florida 1989 - Tommy F. Robinson, while U.S. Representative from Arkansas 1989 - Rick Perry, before running for Agriculture Commissioner of Texas 1989 - W. Fox McKeithen, while Louisiana Secretary of State early 1990s - Eli Bebout 1990 - Vito Fossella, current U.S. Representative from New York 1991 - Lauch Faircloth, in February 1991 - Bret Schundler, before running for the New Jersey Senate 1991 - Buddy Roemer, governor of Louisiana switched parties shortly before the beginning of his unsuccessful reelection campaign 1992 - Byron Looper, before running for State Representative in Tennessee 1994 - Walter B. Jones, while running for U.S. Representative from North Carolina 1994 - Ed Whitfield, the day before filing as a candidate for the U. S. House in Kentucky 1994 - Mike Bowers, while Attorney General of Georgia 1994 - Fob James, while running for Governor of Alabama 1994 - Richard Shelby, while U.S. Senator from Alabama 1994 - Woody Jenkins, while Louisiana state House member mid 1990s - Ed Austin, while Mayor of Jacksonville 1995 - Jimmy Hayes, while U.S. Representative from Louisiana 1995 - Greg Laughlin, while U.S. Representative from Texas 1995 - Ben Nighthorse Campbell, while U.S. Senator from Colorado 1995 - Billy Tauzin, while U.S. Representative from Louisiana 1995 - Nathan Deal, while U.S. Representative from Georgia 1995 - Mike Parker, while U.S. Representative from Mississippi 1995 - Mike Foster, while running for Governor of Louisiana 1995 - Rusty Crowe, Tennessee state senator 1995 - Milton H. Hamilton, Jr, Tennessee state senator 1996 - Norm Coleman, while mayor of St. Paul, Minnesota 1997 - Kevin Mannix, after losing Democratic nomination for Oregon Attorney General in 1996 1997 - Michael J. Michot, while serving in the Louisiana House 1998 - George Wallace, Jr., before running for Alabama Public Service Commissioner 1998 - Herman Badillo 1998 - David G. Boschert 1998 - Sonny Perdue, while a Georgia State Senator 1999 - Nancy Larraine Hoffmann, current New York State Senator 2000 - Matthew G. Martinez, while U.S. Representative from California 2001 - Michael Bloomberg, before running for mayor of New York City 2001 - Hunt Downer, before running for Governor of Louisiana 2002 - Amy Tuck, while Lieutenant Governor of Mississippi 2002 - Olga A. M�ndez, while State Senator in New York 2002 - Don Cheeks, while a Georgia State Senator 2002 - Dan Lee, while a Georgia State Senator 2002 - Rooney Bowen, while a Georgia State Senator 2002 - Jack Hill, while a Georgia State Senator 2003 - James David Cain, prior to his final election to the Louisiana Senate 2003 - Melinda Schwegmann, while State House member in Louisiana 2003 - Gabriel Vasquez, Houston City Councilmember (council seat is nonpartisan) 2004 - Ralph Hall, while U.S. Representative from Texas 2004 - Rodney Alexander, while U.S. Representative from Louisiana (his switch just before the filing deadline prevented the Democrats from fielding a viable replacement candidate) 2005 - Michael Diven, while in Pennsylvania state House, defeated in 2006 elections 2006 - Sheri McInvale, Florida State Representative, defeated in 2006 elections 2006 - Don McLeary, Tennessee state senator, defeated in 2006 elections 2006 - John Giannetti, Maryland State Senator, defeated in 2006 elections 2006 - Mickey Channell, while a Georgia State Representative 2006 - Will Kendrick, Florida State Representative, after being reelected as a Democrat 2006 - Billy Montgomery, while serving in the Louisiana House 2007 - James Walley, Mississippi State Senator. Walley was originally elected as a Democrat after defeating Tommy Dickerson, who had switched from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party. However, Walley was then defeated in the 2007 legislative elections by Tommy Dickerson, now running as a Democrat once more. 2007- Tommy Gollott, current Mississippi State Senator from Biloxi 2007 - Dawn Pettengill, member of the Iowa House of Representatives 2007 - Mike Jacobs, while a Georgia State Representative 2007 - John N. Kennedy, while State Treasurer of Louisiana

Though he never formally changed his affiliation, former U.S. Senator Zell B. Miller (D-Georgia), caucused with the Senate Republicans and spoke at the 2004 Republican National Convention.

By Zell

December 5, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

No! No! My party left ME!

By PartyPooper

December 5, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

No! No! My party left ME!

You really weren’t worth keeping around, Zell, Za Mad Man.

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

Lily Toad

Sorry missed them all.

Small town office holders switch parties at the drop of a hat. Not what we were talking about.

The discussion was about democrats that had been racist contributors to the civil rights movement that became Republicans. Sonny Purdue was a teenager during the civil rights movement. All of those people are either dead now or were not politicians during the 1960s.

You simply listed people that had jumped ship during the Clinton years or the years of the cut and run movement in Washington. Or they were small time office holders and certainly didn’t have any power during the 1960s.

I know you are desperate to show that Democrats aren’t racist. Too bad you are not going to be able to do it.

And again, delphi: Islamaphobia. All liberals, all horrible anti-semites. The racism of the democratic party is alive and well.

Keep trying, but you simply aren’t going to find anyone that was a racist deixiecrat that changed over.

You just proved my point. Who wouldn’t jump ship on the dims?

But the racist democratic segregationists that played such a huge part in denying Black people their rights all died Democrats. Sorry.

(You listed Micheal Bloomberg as a Southern Segregationist? LOL!!!)

By Anonymous

December 6, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

If only TOJ were able to set the terms required to “prove” his point, everything would be great.

But narrowing it down to specifics like that is a dodge. It’s about as transparent a tactic as saying, “Gee, it’s cold today—I guess global warming is a myth!” Or, “You can’t say I have a car unless you PROVE to me that there’s a green 1976 AMC Gremlin in my driveway right now.”

The evidence has already been presented… exhaustively. And TOJ’s response was to try to narrow the cases down tighter and tighter: “You can’t show me a Democrat who changed parties after civil rights… okay, but those aren’t specifically SOUTHERN… okay, but those aren’t at the NATIONAL level… okay, you can’t show me one who’s STILL ALIVE… okay, none of those are GOVERNORS… etc., etc.”

As I said: The GOP’s racism is obvious to everyone with working eyes and ears (and brains). Apparently, TOJ had to shut his off in order to work with his bigoted pals.

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Lily Toad

I see what you did. You just looked up Party Switching in the United States on Wikipeddia. LOL

In oder to avoid this kind of humiliation, you might want to read what the subject of the conversation was really about. Anonomous claimed that almost all of the segregationists that fought integration during the civil rights movement switched over. I understood why he thought that. After the Trent Lott affair where Democrats pointed out that Jessie Helms had been a racist, the Republicans simply pointed out that Jessie had ben a Democrat when he was a racist.

If there is one thing the Democrats didn’t want told, it was their involvement in the civil rights movement. So they went into major spin, trying to say that Dixicrats were never really democrats and all the racist Democrats became Republicans.

They lied to you, like the always do and here you are trying to defend their lies with the wrong information. They should be ashamed and you should be ashamed for falling for it.

By ChuckQuestions

December 6, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this

The best questions here would be for Chuck:

Chuck: What was your grandfather’s political party, and if both, when did he switch?

and secondly:

Chuck: What was your FATHER’s political party, and if both, when did he switch?

that ought to clear this up real fast.

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Anonomous

She listed everyone who switched parties. You claimed that all the Democrats that fought against the civil rights movement switched over to the Republican party.

You have yet to show a single one. That’s no surprise: you thought that George Wallace was a Republican. BTW, She listed George Wallace in her list. He did switch from being a democrat to an INDEPENDENT.

Now once again, name a single segregationist that is still alive (A stipulation that you made, not me) that switched over other than Trent Lott.

I’m still waiting.

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Chuck Questions

Chuck Questions, huh? So what is that going to clear up?

My Grandfather was a yellow dog Democrat. Never spoke a sentance that the N word was not used. Standard practice for democrats of the day.

My Mother and Father were both Republicans and fought for integration against the Democrats. And this is how they and all the other Republicans that fought against segregation are now rewarded. A few years of welfare handouts and supporting a racist affirmative action hiring program and the entire Black culture is living on the Democratic Plantation.

A Republican President appoints the most important position on earth to a Black person and that Black person is called an Uncle Tom by Black Leadership while Bill Clinton, the president they supported had a lot of Black people serving in the White House. They were serving Lunch, afternoon tea and Dinner.

So exactly what did this clear up?

By Newzwyre

December 6, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

LONG BEACH, N.Y. —

Apparently, when it comes to holiday symbols, size does matter.

At least it did to some folks in Long Beach, who were none too happy with the elfin Christmas tree planted next to a 20-foot-high menorah at Kennedy Plaza in front of City Hall.

They called, they sent letters, they testified at a public hearing.

Long Beach resident Rick Hoffman put it this way: “What’s up with the giant menorah and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree?” he asked.

“We wish it would have been bigger,” said City Manager Edwin Eaton, who added that the city looked as far away as Canada for a bigger tree. “This year is going to be kind of a ‘bah, humbug’ Christmas.”

Well, not anymore.

On Wednesday, the city manager made his own wish come true.

After enduring a week of phone calls, jokes and even a City Council memo about the vertically challenged 7-foot tree, he ordered up a new one.

The 20-foot blue spruce is about the size of the menorah. Hoffman, who saw the new, yet-to-be-lit tree Wednesday night, said it was beautiful. “At least we have one to the menorah size… . It’s actually a little bigger,” he said.

However, some considered it a game of religious one-upmanship.

In a letter to Eaton, residents only known as D. and E. Grube said the “dwarf-sized Christmas tree” was insensitive and disgraceful:

“The menorah is statuesque and a pleasure to view, but, regrettably, the diminutive size of the Christmas tree can only be perceived as an insult to the Christian community residing in Long Beach.”

That’s way harsh, Eaton said, although he thought the size differential was ludicrous.

“I’m a Christian… . You hate when it gets down to that,” he said. “It was small, yes, but it was going to grow.”

On Wednesday morning, the old tree, a Bacheri spruce, was stripped of its lights, dug up and whisked off to a mall, where it will live out its days far from judging eyes and Christmas glory.

By Echo

December 6, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

They lied to you, like the always do and here you are trying to defend their lies with the wrong information. They should be ashamed and you should be ashamed for falling for it.

The Republicans lied to you, like they always do, and here you are trying to defend their lies with the wrong information. They should be ashamed and you should be ashamed for falling for it.

By sandi

December 6, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

I can pi-s further than you can! Oh, no I can pi-s further than you. Oh, no you can’t! ROTFLMAO! You guys hanging out here on ‘Woman to Woman’ are a hoot!

By Newzwyre

December 6, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Ron Paul commenting on Mitt Romney -

“We live in times of great uncertainty when men of faith must stand up for American values and traditions before they are washed away in a sea of fear and relativism. I have never been one who is particularly comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena, and I find the pandering that typically occurs in the election season to be distasteful.

Our nation was founded to be a place where religion is freely practiced and differences are tolerated and respected. I come to my faith through Jesus Christ and have accepted him as my personal savior. At the same time, I have worked tirelessly to defend and restore individual rights and religious freedom for all Americans.

The recent attacks and insinuations, both direct and subtle, that Gov. Romney may be less fit to serve as president of our United States because of his faith fly in the face of everything America stands for. Gov. Romney should be judged fairly, on his record and his character, not on the church he attends.”

By etching

December 6, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

well I can write my name in the snow LOL

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth

December 6, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

I daresay it is a slur on Swedes to allege that they encourage idleness!On welfare, one is hardly well off compared to the workers.Sweden has high employment. Just nutwing propaganda! The Supreme Court finds those matters guaranteed by the Constitution in the article mentioning the general welfare.That is part of our Social Contract as much as you might dislike that. For decades, wingnuts have brayed that we are going socialist; we have not done so and won’t! We have a private market. There are no more long lines in European hospitals than here! And our next president and Congress will enact health care and most Americans will find it great as they do social security and medicare ! We can better manage those two programs and others. The myths of libertarianism!

By IMPORTANT MESSAGE

December 6, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

MESSAGE TO SO-CALLED JOURNALISTS:

Thanks, “news” people for encouraging the next troubled, lonely young man to become famous by destroying innocent lives. It is appropriately newsworthy to mention his name ONCE. His picture, feelings, hopes & dreams, troubles, etc., should never ever be shown. You REWARDED the murderer at Va. Tech, and the time before that, and the time before that. Guess what: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. Wh-o-res.

By chuck

December 6, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

My Grandfather was a democrat and a former member of the KKK. He died in 1974 as a democrat.

My father was a Republican whose first vote for President was for Eisenhower.

I don’t know what that clears up for you but there it is.

By Nat Turner

December 6, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

*A few years of welfare handouts and supporting a racist affirmative action hiring program and the entire Black culture is living on the Democratic Plantation.

*Affirmative Action hurts MY FAMILY. Not white people. Not the rich guy up the street, but my own family in making it almost impossible for me to get some very lucrative government contracts. I usually end up doing the work and making a fraction of what some guy is making because of nothing other than the color of his skin. My family is VERY important to me. Again: It isn�t about hate, or my wanting to hold anyone down, it�s about fairness to me and MY FAMILY. *

Both of our parties have some real wacked people. It isn�t my favorite thought to understand that I have huge problems with Affirmative Action and so does the Klan. But I have listed why I have those problems and it has nothing to do with hate. I have also listed why I vote for Republicans

Do you have problems with Black people? And please don’t give me the stock answer: “I have lots of black friends.”

By chuck

December 6, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

This is one of the major problems in our country today:

By Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth: The Supreme Court finds those matters guaranteed by the Constitution in the article mentioning the general welfare.

Please take a government class. There is NO ARTICLE that “mentions” the general welfare. The phrase occurs in the PREAMBLE to the Constitution and it states as a purpose that the government should PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE. Since we KNOW that these programs actually HURT poor people and create a permanent UNDERCLASS, how are they PROMOTING the General Welfare?

When the Republican Party proposed and PASSED welfare reform in 1995, POOR PEOPLE ACTUALLY BENEFITTED. Want PROOF?

Economist Walter Williams in his article today wrote:

The Nov. 13 Wall Street Journal editorial “Movin’ On Up” reports on a recent U.S. Treasury study of income tax returns from 1996 and 2005. The study tracks what happened to tax filers 25 years of age and up during this 10-year period. Controlling for inflation, nearly 58 percent of the poorest income group in 1996 moved to a higher income group by 2005. Twenty-six percent of them achieved middle or upper-middle class income, and over 5 percent made it into the highest income group.

Over the decade, the inflation-adjusted median income of all tax filers rose by 24 percent. As such, it refutes Dobbs-Edwards-Huckabee claims about stagnant incomes. In fact, only one income group experienced a decline in real income. That was the richest one percent, who saw an income drop of nearly 26 percent over the 10-year period. The editors explain that these people might have been rich for a few years, had some capital gains, or could not stand up to the competition with new entrepreneurs and wealth creators.

The U.S. Treasury study confirms previous studies dating back to the 1960s, concluding, “The basic finding of this analysis is that relative income mobility is approximately the same in the last 10 years as it was in the previous decade.” As such, it points to a uniquely American feature: Just because you know where a person ended up in life doesn’t mean you can be sure about where he started. Most of today’s higher income and wealthy did not start out that way.

What about claims of a disappearing middle class? Let’s do some detective work. Controlling for inflation, in 1967, 8 percent of households had an annual income of $75,000 and up; in 2003, more than 26 percent did. In 1967, 17 percent of households had a $50,000 to $75,000 income; in 2003, it was 18 percent. In 1967, 22 percent of households were in the $35,000 to $50,000 income group; by 2003, it had fallen to 15 percent. During the same period, the $15,000 to $35,000 category fell from 31 percent to 25 percent, and the under $15,000 category fell from 21 percent to 16 percent. The only reasonable conclusion from this evidence is that if the middle class is disappearing, it’s doing so by swelling the ranks of the upper classes.

So much for the “Republican attack on the Middle Class”, huh USSRinUK?

What about the concentration of wealth? In 1918, John D. Rockefeller’s fortune accounted for more than half of one percent of total private wealth. To compile the same half of one percent of the private wealth in the United States today, you’d have to combine the fortunes of Microsoft’s Bill Gates ($53 billion) and Paul Allen ($16 billion), Oracle’s Larry Ellison ($19 billion), and a third of Berkshire Hathaway’s Warren Buffett’s $46 billion. In 1920, America’s richest one percent held about 40 percent of private wealth; by 1980, the private wealth held by the richest one percent fell to about 20 percent and has remained stable at that level since.

By Republicans are AWESOME!

December 6, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Hey Teacher, how many of these did they enact in the 12 years they had control of Congress? Inquiring minds want to know.

REPUBLICAN CONTRACT WITH AMERICA: 1994

As Republican Members of the House of Representatives and as citizens seeking to join that body we propose not just to change its policies, but even more important, to restore the bonds of trust between the people and their elected representatives. That is why, in this era of official evasion and posturing, we offer instead a detailed agenda for national renewal, a written commitment with no fine print.

This year’s election offers the chance, after four decades of one-party control, to bring to the House a new majority that will transform the way Congress works. That historic change would be the end of government that is too big, too intrusive, and too easy with the public’s money. It can be the beginning of a Congress that respects the values and shares the faith of the American family.

Like Lincoln, our first Republican president, we intend to act “with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right.” To restore accountability to Congress. To end its cycle of scandal and disgrace. To make us all proud again of the way free people govern themselves.

On the first day of the 104th Congress, the new Republican majority will immediately pass the following major reforms, aimed at restoring the faith and trust of the American people in their government:

FIRST, require all laws that apply to the rest of the country also apply equally to the Congress; SECOND, select a major, independent auditing firm to conduct a comprehensive audit of Congress for waste, fraud or abuse; THIRD, cut the number of House committees, and cut committee staff by one-third; FOURTH, limit the terms of all committee chairs; FIFTH, ban the casting of proxy votes in committee; SIXTH, require committee meetings to be open to the public; SEVENTH, require a three-fifths majority vote to pass a tax increase; EIGHTH, guarantee an honest accounting of our Federal Budget by implementing zero base-line budgeting.

Thereafter, within the first 100 days of the 104th Congress, we shall bring to the House Floor the following bills, each to be given full and open debate, each to be given a clear and fair vote and each to be immediately available this day for public inspection and scrutiny.

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Echo

I pointed out that you wrer lied to and I pointed out the lies. You just said that I was lied to, but didn’t point out the lies.

Did you forget or did you just want to say that i was lied to?

By The Other Jack

December 6, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

Do you have problems with Black people? And please don�t give me the stock answer: �I have lots of black friends.

Which Black people are you talking about, Nat? I was taught that each and every individual should be taken on their own merit. Are you suggesting that I should associate all Black people with the very prominent criminal element? That would be almost Dixiecratic in the amount of racism it would take to do that. You are barking up the wrong tree, Pal.

Are you suggesting that i don’t like Black People? Talk about a stock response! Anyone speaks out against the Plantation’s Mantra and they are labeled a racist. And it’s none of your business who my friends are.

I have major problems with any program that puts the color of a person’s skin over skill, education and work ethic. Why in the world would anyone support a program like that?

By chuck

December 6, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

Actually, in the final Contract With America, there were 10 points. 9 of those 10 were passed. The only one not passed was term limits. In my opinion, that was the one they should have passed FIRST. That would have solved many of the problems we have with money and influence in congress today.

By chuck

December 6, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Here are the 10 that you (unintentionally I’m sure) left off of your list.

Don’t Mess With Texas (OR ME)

THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: A balanced budget/tax limitation amendment and a legislative line-item veto to restore fiscal responsibility to an out- of-control Congress, requiring them to live under the same budget constraints as families and businesses. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE TAKING BACK OUR STREETS ACT: An anti-crime package including stronger truth-in- sentencing, “good faith” exclusionary rule exemptions, effective death penalty provisions, and cuts in social spending from this summer’s “crime” bill to fund prison construction and additional law enforcement to keep people secure in their neighborhoods and kids safe in their schools. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT: Discourage illegitimacy and teen pregnancy by prohibiting welfare to minor mothers and denying increased AFDC for additional children while on welfare, cut spending for welfare programs, and enact a tough two-years-and-out provision with work requirements to promote individual responsibility. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE FAMILY REINFORCEMENT ACT: Child support enforcement, tax incentives for adoption, strengthening rights of parents in their children’s education, stronger child pornography laws, and an elderly dependent care tax credit to reinforce the central role of families in American society. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE AMERICAN DREAM RESTORATION ACT: A S500 per child tax credit, begin repeal of the marriage tax penalty, and creation of American Dream Savings Accounts to provide middle class tax relief. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE NATIONAL SECURITY RESTORATION ACT: No U.S. troops under U.N. command and restoration of the essential parts of our national security funding to strengthen our national defense and maintain our credibility around the world. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE SENIOR CITIZENS FAIRNESS ACT: Raise the Social Security earnings limit which currently forces seniors out of the work force, repeal the 1993 tax hikes on Social Security benefits and provide tax incentives for private long-term care insurance to let Older Americans keep more of what they have earned over the years. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE JOB CREATION AND WAGE ENHANCEMENT ACT: Small business incentives, capital gains cut and indexation, neutral cost recovery, risk assessment/cost-benefit analysis, strengthening the Regulatory Flexibility Act and unfunded mandate reform to create jobs and raise worker wages. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE COMMON SENSE LEGAL REFORM ACT: “Loser pays” laws, reasonable limits on punitive damages and reform of product liability laws to stem the endless tide of litigation. (Bill Text) (Description)

THE CITIZEN LEGISLATURE ACT: A first-ever vote on term limits to replace career politicians with citizen legislators. (Description)

By Sage

December 6, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Tom Brokaw is challenging boomers to emulate the Greatest Generation and sacrifice for the common good of the country! Sacrifice? Instead of going shopping? What in the world is he thinking?

By Nat Turner

December 6, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

Which Black people are you talking about, Nat? I was taught that each and every individual should be taken on their own merit. Are you suggesting that I should associate all Black people with the very prominent criminal element? That would be almost Dixiecratic in the amount of racism it would take to do that. You are barking up the wrong tree, Pal.

Are you suggesting that i don�t like Black People? Talk about a stock response! Anyone speaks out against the Plantation�s Mantra and they are labeled a racist.

Nobody ever said that you are a racist. I like how quickly you jump the gun, and assume that I am calling you a racist.

I also like the way that you have no idea why black people may call Condalezza Rice an Uncle Tom.

I love this sweeping generalization:

Did you ask any black person whether they thought that since you judge every black person as an individual? Because I have never said that AND I AM BLACK.

I also love this sweeping generalization: the entire Black culture is living on the Democratic Plantation.

Really? What exactly is black culture? I want you to enlighten me. I am an individual, and black culture may mean something to me and something totally different to Oprah, Bill Cosby, and Archie.

By Lily Toad

December 6, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

TOJ, That wasn’t me that posted from WIKI. I just listed Sonny and other dems in a separate post. As for your assertion, you are desperate to show that Democrats aren�t racist, that isn’t true. As I said to you about a month ago, I don’t deny that Democrats are racist. I think almost all white people in America are racists whether we want to be or not, because of institutional racism and living in a racist society.

By Newzwyre

December 6, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/thedailydish/2007/12/the-romney-spee.html#trackback

The Romney speech -

It is stirring in its defense of religious liberty, with only a couple of notes off-key: The first is the absence of any notion that religious freedom includes the freedom to have no religion whatever. A president of the United States does not just represent people of all faiths, he also represents those who have none. There is a lacuna in Romney’s vision of religious tolerance, and it is a deliberate lacuna. In order to appeal to evangelicals, he places himself on their side against the other: the secularists. But that is simply another form of the religious test. By insisting on faith - any faith - as the proper criterion for public office, Romney draws the line, oh-so-conveniently, so as to include Mormonism but exclude atheism and agnosticism. And so he side-steps the critical issue in the debates over religion in public life: what if there is no unifying faith for a nation? What if faith itself cannot unify a nation - and, in fact, can divide it more deeply than any other subject? That is our reality. An intelligent and wise conservative would try to find a path to a common discourse that does not rest on religious foundations.

The second flaw is that he simply cannot elide the profound theological differences between the LDS church and mainstream Christianity. Since I’m a secularist - a Christian secularist - this doesn’t make a difference to me. But if you are appealing to religious people, especially fundamentalists, on the basis of faith, you cannot logically then ask them to ignore the content of the faith. The religious right have tried to do this with the absurd neologism, the “Judeo-Christian tradition,” as if the truth-claims of Christianity and Judaism are not, at bottom, contradictory. But the “Mormon-Judeo-Christian tradition” is a step too far even for those who have almost no principles in using religion for political purposes.

I think it’s a tragedy that a man of Romney’s obvious gifts should be reduced to this. But he asked for it; and the petard he has been hoist on is his own. If you want a religious politics, you’ll end up with one. That’s why Huckabee is the natural heir to the Rove project. And why Romney is falling behind.

By Archie

December 6, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

I would sure like to know who Nat Turner is because this is my first time reading any posts by him but since he obviously knows who I am blogwise I will respond by saying I liked his 3 pm post. Lily Toad, I thought you were black but even if you’re not let me say I have seen that statement made by a lady named Jane Elliot. I have purposefully not posted until now because I could care less about the blog topic.

On a different note President Bush is starting to lie once again and he’s doing it during the Christmas season while the public is distracted and normally it takes him 3 months to put together his propaganda/lie campaign so around March 2008 he will bomb Iran. It’s going to take some intestinal fortitude but Bush really needs to be put out or dealt with legally.

By Lily Toad

December 6, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Archie, I’m not black, but I am working on anti-racism. I don’t know who Jane Elliot is. It’s hard as a white person to not be racist because of upbringing, and the media, for instance. My mother still can’t bring herself to eat at the same table as black people because of all those Jim Crow rules about black people not being allowed at the same table as whites. Even thought consciously I don’t want to be racist, sometimes racist thoughts cross my mind. I think it’s a life-long struggle to eradicate racism.

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December 7, 2007 6:09 AM | Link to this

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By USinUK

December 7, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

So much for the �Republican attack on the Middle Class�, huh USSRinUK?

Chuck … I’m not sure what meds you’re on, but maybe you should double up on the dose. I haven’t said anything about the Republicans, the middle class or an attack on anyone. I haven’t even been in here since Wednesday.

Maybe you should tell a professional about those voices in your head.

By NoJokeDay

December 7, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

It certainly is a SAD DAY in America when some Presidential candidate feels he needs to discuss his Religious Beliefs just to pass muster.

SAD SAD DAY!

By GOB

December 7, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Chuck - Good post at 8:02 last night…

By Lily Toad

December 7, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

That’s no joke, No Joke Day. I’m so sick of the candidates trying to out-Christian each other, and of Romney’s pandering.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

Nat Turner

*I also like the way that you have no idea why black people may call Condalezza Rice an Uncle Tom.

I love this sweeping generalization:*

So I guess only Black people understand why Black people called Dr. Rice an Uncle Tom. Is that right? LOL!! I hope that you have moved away from that kind of racist nonsense. Black People don’t have some magical sense that only Black people understand.

If you want to start discussing this like you are l;iving in the 21st century, let me know.

As far as understanding, Black Culture: I would tell you why I know that you are wrong, but again, my friends and what I do is none of your business.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Lily Toad

Yes. I see that now. I apologize.

By USinUK

December 7, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Lily -

You made pretty much the same observation I was trying to make to The Other Jack earlier this week. Racism is pretty much the same, wherever you go - North/South, US/Europe. Jewish cemetaries are desecrated just as often in the US as Europe. People of color (whether of African heritage or Asian) are the object of just as much hatred in the US and Europe. And, it’s from people from all walks of life and on both sides of the aisle.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Nat Turner

I just can’t get over that. Only Black people understand why Black people call Dr. Rice an Uncle Tom. LOL!! That is priceless.

So are all Black People just born with this secret magical knowledge? The next time I am setting at the ramp at the GA Tech campus and a Black guy walks up to ask for money, If I ask him about the Dr. Rice deal, will he know, or will he understand all about it but since I am not Black, will he understand that I just can’t “get it”.

I find it very interesting that you fisrt ask me if I like Black People. Just the idea of that question is racist. Which Black people? But then you make some sort of idiotic claim that only Black People can understand why some Black People follow along behind the Democratic Plantation Mantra and call the first Black person (Colen Powell, not Dr. Rice) to be appointed to the highest position in the free world an uncle Tom.

But the idea that the plantation is ran by white Democrats, that try desperately to distract from any Black Person that does not march in goosestep with the mantra is not the reason, but instead, some sort of magical “Black ESP make all Black People understand what White Folks will never get. LOL!!.

What a bunch of nonsense!

The first book I would suggest is: They Think We Are Stupid by Herman Cain. (And they do, the democratic party does think Black People are stupid)

Now Cain is a Republican and I guess all Black People understand that anything Republican is evil. Right?

The next book would be Enough!, by Juan Williams. he is a liberal writer for NPR.

Colen Powell could easily run for President as a Republican and win. Would he be an Uncle Tom then? What would it take to make him acceptable to “Black People” or can you explain such a complicated and race exclusive idea to a non-Black. Would it just stretch my limited DNA too far to try and understand such a concept?

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Just as I thought TOJ. You are saying things without knowing why black people called her an Uncle Tom. The reason, since you don’t know and are repeating what somebody told you, is: she has never done anything to further the black cause according to the black people I know (friends and family) that feel that racism is rampant everywhere.

Really? What exactly is black culture? I want you to enlighten me. I am an individual, and black culture may mean something to me and something totally different to Oprah, Bill Cosby, and Archie.

As far as understanding, Black Culture: I would tell you why I know that you are wrong, but again, my friends and what I do is none of your business.

Do those two statements mean the same thing? The first one is from me, and the second one is from you.

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

According to the black people that I know, it has nothing to do with her being a Republican. Most of the black people I have talked to actually are conservative and share many of the Republican values.

It pays to actually talk to people, pardon me, let me use the word that you use “individuals”, about things race relations and views instead of making a hasty generalization.

I could easily lump you in the racist group, but I am not. I ask you the following question: “Do you have a problem with black people?” Instead of actually having a discussion about race relations, you got technical (what black people? etc.).

By chuck

December 7, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Maybe you have alzheimers so I’ll refress your memory. Check your own meds sweetie.

By USinUK

December 5, 2007 10:36 AM

Am I pessimistic about the US?? With this current administration, yes I am. I hate - HATE - what W has done to my country (and, yes, it is still MY country). I hate Guantanamo Bay. I hate military tribunals that hold people as suspects despite intel agencies clearing them. I hate Abu Ghraib. I hate the Iraq war. I hate that the US feels it can ignore legal extradition and kidnap suspects of a crime. I hate the lies he has recently passed off about Iran. I hate the class warfare that the GOP has waged on the middle class to benefit the rich. I hate the browning of my beautiful country. I hate that AMERICANS are arguing whether or not simulated drowning is torture. And I hate warrantless wiretaps.

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

I also like the way that you have no idea why black people may call Condalezza Rice an Uncle Tom.

I just can�t get over that. Only Black people understand why Black people call Dr. Rice an Uncle Tom. LOL!! That is priceless.

Are these the same thing? I stated that you don’t understand. And based off of the statements below, I was correct.

But the idea that the plantation is ran by white Democrats, that try desperately to distract from any Black Person that does not march in goosestep with the mantra is not the reason, but instead, some sort of magical �Black ESP make all Black People understand what White Folks will never get.

Now Cain is a Republican and I guess all Black People understand that anything Republican is evil. Right?

By ListenUpYa'll

December 7, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Listen up everyone - if you’re a person of color don’t try to tell them how you feel and think! They already know exactly how you should think and feel about everything. If you’re a woman don’t try to tell them what women feel and think. They already know what you should feel and think. Don’t point out any problems that don’t effect white men; they don’t care. Don’t try to tell them that other groups than white men have different experiences, different problems, and different ideas about what this country has been and is. They don’t care. It’s as if the civil rights movement, the women’s movement, anything that doesn’t revolve around white men is so unimportant and off their radar. Blacks don’t need affirmative action anymore; that’s all been taken care of, in their minds. Women, what are they complaining about? They’ve got it made now - in their minds. And they never have and never will LISTEN to any other viewpoints because they think they know everything already. It’s always been that way. Blacks have had to closely watch and understand whites to survive. Women have had to closely watch and understand men to survive. So women and blacks, (and others without any power) understand the dominators because we have to. It’s too bad they will never see how much we know and listen to anything we know because, of course, they are the ones with the power and the correct understanding of everything. (They don’t even see - and will never admit - they dominate other groups!)If we disagree with them, then we’re wrong and they will never hesitate to tell us so. It’s such a waste of our energy to try to explain to them. All we can do is work for the good of our people and watch them being replaced or dying off!

By B

December 7, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Howdy, gang, and Happy Friday to everyone!

To me, it’s a repeat of the MLB strike

Well, said, AGFNPR. The reason I can’t get too worked up about this specific strike is that, to me, it’s not really about who is worth what in the creative/production process. And it’s definitely not about the impoverished, defenseless writers pitted against the evil media executives. It’s about lawyers and contracts. For whatever reason, the lawyers working for the studios found a loophole in their contracts with the writers that the writers’ lawyers failed to anticipate. Perhaps it’s a case of new technology and markets developing faster than the lawyers’ ability to write good contracts. Whatever the case, I’m certain that this loophole will be closed onw way or another.

By B

December 7, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

I would surmise that 80%-90% of these “creatives” could be replaced

Winning a writing contest is no comparison to grinding out a weekly show

Good point/counterpoint, guys. I actually think you’re both right in this situation. The difference between a talented amateur in any field and a true professional is immense, though it is likely that no one but the professional understands why. For one thing, as an amateur, you can wait for inspiration, while you don’t have that luxury as a professional, you have deadlines. More importantly, if you are an amateur and fail in a specific attempt, the ramifications are small. As a professional, the financial success of the company depends on a consistently good product—you can’t afford but a few flops.

At the same time, I think that TV programming in today’s market is suffering from the same problem that pro sports has faced the last many years due to league expansion. The bottom line is that there is only so much true talent out there: There are only so many top pitchers in baseball, and only so many top writers in TV. When television “expanded” from 3 major networks and a few UHF channels to the literally hundreds of cable channels available today, you have to figure that the talent is being spread waaay thin at this point. For that reason, I don’t think your assessment is too far off base, 2D.

By Archie

December 7, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

Lily Toad, Jane Elliot is a nationally known speaker on race and prejudice and she is white and she has appeared on Oprah and the Donahue show. She did a blue-eye and brown-eye experiment on Oprah that really illustrated how easy it is to convince someone they are superior and how it affects their attitude. As for Condi Rice I don’t like how she went along with the lies told by the administration and although she is somewhat intelligent,she still appears to be a sellout.

By B

December 7, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

All we can do is work for the good of our people and watch them being replaced or dying off

As a white man, I don’t begrudge your efforts to better your lot in life in any way, whether as an individual or as a member of a specific racial/gender group. More power to you! However, if you expect to be given power without actually earning it, then you don’t have my support. Specifically, though the goals of affirmative action remain noble, the mechanism remains corrupt.

Also to consider: Implicit in the criticism of “white man’s rule” is the notion that life might be better under “black man’s rule”. In your opinion, are present-day Africans better off under black rule? Would you feel safe, as a white woman, traveling unescorted around Capetown?

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Archie. That is what I was trying to get across to TOJ. Your reasons for disliking her have nothing to do with the fact that she isn’t a Democrat. And your reasons are different from the black people that I have talked to.

And to answer your question, I remember you talking about being black on a different topic.

By B

December 7, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Also, I’m open to hearing arguments that the city of Atlanta is better off under black rule than white rule. From my perspective, the only thing that has happened is that one set of corrupt, racist politicians was replaced by a different set of corrupt, racist politicians of a different skin color.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

Squirm all you want. You said a really stupid thing. Here is the dreaded flip. You point out something that White people did that was really stupid, bigoted and partisan. But my response is that White people know why they did it. i.e. you are not smart enough to understand what White People were saying. That would be pretty damned bigoted and racist, wouldn’t it?

I hear this bigoted, racist crap all the time. It’s a Black Thang, is as racist as anything I have heard from anyone in my entire life.

And now you come back and say: yes you were right because I have proven that I can’t understand why Black people did something because I am white. Could you be any more of bigot?

Here’s the deal: I am offering you the opportunity to step into the 21st century and put your racism and your hate behind you.

There is no DNA exception that make Black People understand thangs that White people can’t.

GET IT?

Until you can comprehend that, you need to find someone else to talk to. You make me sick.

By chuck

December 7, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

…although she is somewhat intelligent,she still appears to be a sellout.

Are you kidding me Archie? Just a little about Dr. Rice

In 1974, at age 19, Rice earned her B.A. in political science, Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver. In 1975, she obtained her Master’s Degree in political science from the University of Notre Dame. She first worked in the State Department in 1977, during the Carter administration, as an intern in the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs. In 1981, at the age of 26, she received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the Graduate School of International Studies at Denver. Her dissertation along with some of her earliest publications, centered on military policy and politics in Czechoslovakia.[15]

Rice was a Democrat until 1982 when she changed her political affiliation to Republican after growing averse to former President Jimmy Carter’s foreign policy.[16] She also cited influence from her father, John Wesley, in this decision, who himself switched from Democrat to Republican after being denied voting registration by the Democratic registrar. In her words to the 2000 Republican National Convention, “My father joined our party because the Democrats in Jim Crow Alabama of 1952 would not register him to vote. The Republicans did.”[17] In addition to English, she speaks, with varying degrees of fluency, Russian, German, French, and Spanish.[18]

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

ListenUpY’all.

Who is “them”.

You need to get your racism under control there, pal.

By chuck

December 7, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

So your basic position is that ANY BLACK PERSON who doesn’t agree with you on the issues is an Uncle Tom?

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

I’m not squirming. You are the one trying to get out of it. I said that you don’t understand why black people said that, let’s see if you can get it this time in layman terms, because you are trying to lump everybody into the same group. Archie’s reasons are different from the reasons of my friends and colleagues.

Instead of answering what black culture is, etc. you are dodging the conversation and trying to make me out to be the bigot.

And a 21st conversation would mean that you could talk about whatever it is that bothers you about black people, without being P.C. I have had several conversations with white people (this one guy asked if ashiness was contagious, and other questions that he always wanted to ask).

You see I can be straight up and have a conversation without calling you names Could you be any more of bigot?

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

ListenUpya’ll

Here’s a hint. White men are not kept in a closed container and let out just to go to the Thursday Night Discussion group of Ways to Keep The Black Man Down. We live right here with you. We all have life experiences.

This isn’t 1965. Be a white guy and go out anywhere in Atlanta. See how you are treated by at least half of the Black people you will encounter. You will be cussed at, flipped off, treated rudely and you better damn well keep your mouth shut about it.

How does that compare with the so-called Black Experience? The only thing more ignorant than your assertion that only minorities have bad life experiences is the fact that you do not have the courage to appear here twice in a row as the same person.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

Hey Pal, did you write this:

I also like the way that you have no idea why black people may call Condalezza Rice an Uncle Tom.

See the problem with your not having the courage to go by one nick, is that other people feel free to use your nick.

If you didn’t write that, then I have been talking to the wrong guy. If you did, I stand by every word I say, no matter how many posts you try to divert the subject.

In every post, you openly discuss Black People. But you also demand definitions of Black Culture from me. So my question to you is “Are you talking about each and every Black Person on the planet or are you talking about specific segments of Black Culture? You know as well as I do what is considered different aspects of Black culture. Don’t try to draw me into some idiot discussion of the “semantics of race”.

You have already shown that you personally put people in nice neat racial piles where all Black People have been involved with “The Struggle” and no White man has ever struggled.

There’s just not much I can say to you, other than pick up a book.

By B

December 7, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

And they never have and never will LISTEN to any other viewpoints

I can’t speak for others, but I just spent the last 20 years listening to people express their viewpoints (translation: b*** and whine). People of every race, creed, religion, and sexual orientation. Then they would look to me to “solve” their problems.

I wish I had better news to report, but in the end, I decided that while most people wish for a better situation in life, few are willing to do the work necessary to bring about that better situation. Even if you go to the extreme of volunteering to pay all costs, and even do whatever labor is necessary, don’t expect much cooperation (and no appreciation whatsoever) from the “victim”. All I can figure is that the “rewards” of complaining are greater than the satisfaction of taking destiny into your own hands for most people.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

Nat Turner

Well good for the other guy. Racism disgusts me. It always has, but now that I am more and more of a victim of it, I notice it more and more.

No. I won’t calmly set by and allow someone to defend an idiotic position by accepting some nonsense that “Only Black people get it”.

And that big pile of smelly propaganda that says that Black People can’t be racist because a person needs to possess power in order to be a racist? Total crap.

When you lump all White people together, you are as much of a bigot as any KKK member. And speaking of power and racism, what power does some poor white trash that lives in a trailer park have? Are they racist when they slip on that white hood? You damn right they are and they have NO power.

I’m out of here. I can’t stand to talk about this crap. And you think it is about being “PC”. Hell, it’s about being ignorant or educated.

By Nat Turner

December 7, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Do you know why Black people call her an Uncle Tom? Archie says that it is because she went along with the administration. My friends and colleagues say that she doesn’t further the black cause.

I never said that you can’t understand why people call her an Uncle Tom because you are white, and I never implied that. You were the one that jumped the gun, and assumed that is what I was talking about. I actually was saying because you neatly assume that all black people are Democrats, and that since Condaleeza isn’t a Democrat, that black people call her an Uncle Tom.

And unlike you, I am not backpedaling. Because you start out with the entire black culture, and then go to certain aspects. Which one is it TOJ? The entire or certain aspects?

A few years of welfare handouts and supporting a racist affirmative action hiring program and the entire Black culture is living on the Democratic Plantation.

In every post, you openly discuss Black People. But you also demand definitions of Black Culture from me. So my question to you is �Are you talking about each and every Black Person on the planet or are you talking about specific segments of Black Culture? You know as well as I do what is considered different aspects of Black culture. Don�t try to draw me into some idiot discussion of the �semantics of race�.

By Archie

December 7, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

This isn�t 1965. Be a white guy and go out anywhere in Atlanta. See how you are treated by at least half of the Black people you will encounter. You will be cussed at, flipped off, treated rudely and you better damn well keep your mouth shut about it. While I agree it’s not 1965 it bothers me that you seem to have this attitude because let me tell you something although I am black, I also get flipped off, treated rudely by black people at certain places. My point is it has nothing to do with your being a white guy as much as it does the people being jerks. I had an experience 2 weeks with a customer service person I considered rude and yes she was black so no one is rude just to you. It bothered me last week when you(TOJ) mentioned this experience. I must point out that I have had some rude experiences from the other side but the only thing I will mention as I have before is that I am a human being and you don’t get to pet my hair because you feel like it. Let me say there are differences between blacks and whites but believe or not black folk are human too.

As for Condi Rice all of the information about her has been posted in Essence and Ebony magazines. I also know that Rice has dated former Nfl player Gene Washington. My point is I knew the information posted by Chuck and then some including the fact that Rice speaks several languages and she is a southern girl. My opinion of Rice is what it is. I treat her same way I would a white man or black man in her position but since the topic was how some,some blacks view her I gave my view. On this topic TOJ, I think Nat Turner has you beat but you may beat him on the next one. TOJ,there are some things you just aren’t going to understand and there are some things I am not going to understand because I am not white,female,jewish,italian,etc. and there is nothing wrong with admitting that because that’s how you learn.

By B

December 7, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

OtherJack—Once again, no need to get so hot under the collar. If you feel that Nat Turner’s ideas about racism and power in America are biased, then you need to address him with respect and challenge his ideas. By shouting insults, you have basically declared yourself the loser here.

I think the best point you have made, TOJ, is that being born a white male doesn’t automatically guarantee a life of luxury and privelege. I’ve been the “victim” of plenty of rudeness while working in the black communities around the West End mall and East Atlanta. I always tried to take it for what it was: Anger from people who viewed me as a symbol of “the man”.

By The Other Jack

December 7, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Archie

Well I’m glad you understand. Yes, in the words of a good friend of mine: Yes, there are idiots everywhere. They come in all colors and the more ignorant among them use skin color as a reason to hate. Happens to all of us.

So the next time you hear the statements that only Blacks can understand, maybe now you will point out what you just pointed out to me: that we all encounter idiots and Black people do not own the title of being a victim of racism. WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE.

By B

December 7, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Archie—IMO, what takes away from the effectiveness of bringing attention to cases of true racism in this country are the repeated cries of “Wolf” that I keep hearing from self-appointed black leaders like Jesse Jackson. The recent revival in the “Free Mumia” Movement is a prime example, IMO.

Even you seem to buy into the notion that drugs were introduced into black communities by the US Govt. in an insidious plot to “keep Blackie down”. Do you have even one shred of evidence to support that claim? Similarly, it is still widely believed today that blacks from the ghetto were sent to the front lines in the Vietnam War and therefore suffered a disproportionate share of casualties.

So, I guess in the end, you see conspiracies that I don’t.

By B

December 7, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Also, I think lost amidst all the shouting is the fact that most white people (as well as most black people, Asians, etc.) are good people who are simply trying to make a good life for themselves and who truly want the same for everyone else. For example, the Abolition Movement in the US was led by northern Whites on moral grounds alone. Ditto for the Civil Rights Movement, which actually began under Truman and Eisenhower, though Kennedy and Johnson get all the credit these days.

By B

December 7, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

I’ve often wondered what the appeal of the Roman Gladiator games was for the Roman citizens way back in antiquity. Watching a man be whipped to death or be tied to a stake and eaten by a wild animal wouldn’t be my idea of a pleasant afternoon. In one of the Teaching Company courses, the professor advanced an interesting idea. According to his interpretation, the real “message” of the Games was to impress upon the Roman citizens to not be a “loser” in life. I.e. “Look what happens when you’re a loser”. While this is a grim way to convey the message, I’ve come to appreciate the truth it contains.

By Archie

December 7, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

TOJ, I still think Nat Turner has you beat on this topic because some of the phrases you used did sound bigoted but like I said you can beat him on some other topic.

B, I like Jesse Jackson and how do you know he is “self-appointed”? I do believe drugs were allowed to come into the black communities and I already referred to a series called American Gangster that airs on BET and no I do not have any evidence that would be accepted by you but just based on common sensical reasoning there’s no way a guy can earn a million dollars a day selling drugs when it is known the drugs come from another country unless it’s allowed to happen. It’s possible to believe we have the best intelligence in the world and yet believe that drug lords are so smart they can sneak huge amounts drugs into the country and no one can stop it. Our government has been known to spy,experiment(Tuskegee), and kill it’s citizens so it’s not that hard to believe anything about the government.

By B

December 7, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Archie—I completely agree that many gov’t officials have to “look the other way” for the drug trade in this country to be so successful. Differently from you, however, I don’t view this complacency as part of any grander plot to sabotage black folks specifically. I view it simply as greedy people accepting bribes to pad their incomes. The same thing is going on here in GA regarding all the “Mom-andPop” gambling operations which operate openly all around metro Atlanta. One such shop opened up next door to my business about 5 years ago. Despite my repeated appeals to the authorities, including the Dekalb police, the Atlanta Vice squad, even the GBI and FBI, nothing ever happened. I can only assume that they were paying off the right people.

As for the Tuskegee “experiments”, I put those on par with the Nazi medical experiments. It is also well known that the govt. gave LSD and other drugs to “volunteer” servicemen to judge the effects. In that case, most of the “participants” were white, so no racial conspiracy was declared.

By B

December 7, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

I think we all should do our best to look for, and applaud, good works by everyone, regardless of race. Rapper Jay-Z reecently won my respect due to his involvement with a project to bring clean drinking water to folks around the world who don’t have access to a safe supply of water, primarily in Africa. We take so much for granted here in the USA. Kudos to Jay-Z for digging deep.

By Lily Toad

December 7, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Archie, thanks for telling me about Jane Elliot. I don’t watch TV, but I’ll look on YouTube to see if I can find the Oprah show she was on.

By B

December 7, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

If I’m interpreting Jane Elliot’s work correctly, all she is saying is that humans are essentially pack animals. We feel kinship to those who look most like us. What is so revelatory about that?

By B

December 7, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

In regards to male/female power-sharing in an intimate relationship, my experience is that women naturally have the upper hand. As such, those of you ladies who keep finding yourselves playing the “one-down” role might take a deep look inside to find out why. I’m not buying that it’s all the man’s fault.

In the words of Dear Abby, no one can take advantage of you without your permission.

By Archie

December 7, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

think we all should do our best to look for, and applaud, good works by everyone, regardless of race. That has already being done as I have praised Michael Moore,Jimmy Carter, and Harry Connick on this blog but some people don’t like those white guys. I mentioned their color only because the debate about race is going on. We do take a lot for granted here in the USA. I still don’t think TOJ got what Nat Turner was getting atand I think this Nat Turner guy won the debate because there are subtle things people do that are really bigotted whether they accept it or not such as trying to touch my hair after I have told you not to. If you’re 24 and a 40-plus-year-old man tells you not to touch him you don’t get to touch anyway just because you’re a white female. The first thing is respect the person’s wishes and the second thing is respect your elders but then to do those two things you have to understand differences and you have to view that person of color with the same respect that you want for yourself. B,TOJ, you do not have to be evil to be a bigot, please understand that. Lily Toad admitted to having racist thoughts and that does not make her evil it means she’s human. I have not read anything from B that makes me think anything other than agree or disagree but with TOJ I think Nat Turner made his point very well. I think I have bashed all sexes and races since I have been on this blog so no one has cornered the market on perfection in any area.

By B

December 7, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Archie—The only way I see out of this divisive mess we’re in is for all of us to believe that we are all on the same team, regardless of race, country, etc. I’m not so optimistic that this will happen anytime soon because, like every other organism on this planet, we are genetically programmed to compete and be selfish. And maybe for good reason.

By B

December 7, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

Hey Archie, if having natty hair gets the 24 y.o. white chicks ineterested, I’m buying some Afro-Sheen today!

Just kidding, but gotta admit that you’re a stronger man than I am. Any interest from the ladies, and I’m all over it.

By B

December 7, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

To ListenUpY’all: I regret that you feel your voice hasn’t been heard and respected in this lifetime. That’s a terrible, terrible feeling to have.

Once again, the truth is that you are a highly intelligent, capable person. Though my respect means nothing to you, you have it.

By Archie

December 7, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Hey B, if buying some Afro-Sheen works man go for it! B, I can’t even get touched black females in public because I am a married guy. Hey B, I saw this gorgeous brunette at lunch time and B, I may not be a white guy but I know you would have liked her!!! B it seems to me that guys don’t go after the ladies with appreciation like they used to but I will apologize right away for generational bias.

By B

December 7, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

Archie, generally I’m attracted to ladies with either blonde or red hair, and super-white skin, though I usually find something to like about every woman I meet.

I still dream of meeting a woman who wants to be treated chivalrously. Nothing makes me feel more manly than treating a woman well….And nothing makes me feel more ashamed than when it is pointed out to me that sometimes my actual behavior falls far short af any noble ambitions. Oh well….

By http://homepage.mac.com/fmp3musicdownloads/index.htm

December 10, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Thanks boys
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Woman to Woman

Are Hollywood writers strike demands justified?

Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.

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