AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2007 > November > 10 > Entry

Is Hillary Clinton’s gender
a disadvantage in the presidential race?

Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, responds.

Commentary

By Shaunti Feldhahn

Reading how the other democratic candidates “piled on” Senator Clinton at the recent debate, and the inevitable speculation about whether her gender is a disadvantage, made me want to laugh. Up until now, the press had played super nice, and the other Democratic candidates had been stymied by how to attack a woman without looking like cads. Even ABC’s Cokie Roberts later admitted that Clinton “Had way too favorable press at this point in the season,” and, “She’s been playing the gender card all along.”

Even beyond Hillary Clinton’s status as a policy leader, she has a clear and calculated advantage as a woman. She can stand out in a sea of men as having a unique perspective. And nearly six in ten Democratic primary voters are women - a population already viewing her gender as neutral or a plus. According to a November 1 survey by the women’s political group Emily’s List, fully 95 percent of female democrats said Clinton’s gender would either make her a “better” president (27 percent) or would make no difference (68 percent).

And she has another advantage that isn’t politically correct, but is nevertheless very real. Male candidates simply may not feel comfortable attacking a woman as nastily as they would another man. And if they do attack her, it not only makes her a sympathetic figure, it gives her some great PR the next day.

The day after the October 30 debate, Senator Clinton received a coveted endorsement from the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME). On a conference call with Clinton supporters, AFSCME president Gerald McEntee enthused, “Six guys against Hillary, and I’d call that a fair fight. This is a strong woman.”

Can you imagine any male candidate having that leverage?

As a woman, Clinton has the best of both worlds. And she knows it. After all it, worked really well in her 2000 Senate race with Rick Lazio. Lazio made the mistake of approaching her podium in a crowding manner during a debate, and his negatives shot up. We all know how that ended.

There’s nothing wrong with Senator Clinton shrewdly using whatever advantage she has. But let’s not pretend the advantage isn’t there.

Rebuttal

By Andrea Cornell Sarvady

Hillary Clinton may not be at a gender disadvantage, yet anyone who thinks being female actually shields her from a rough race is sure forgetting recent history.

So men are reluctant to hit Clinton hard, afraid of looking like cads? Then I’m a little confused here. Which Hillary Clinton have we been going easy on over the years? The one turning us into a socialist village, the one who had a lesbian affair in the White House, or the one who killed Vince Foster?

Calling Clinton’s gender an advantage feels so arbitrary that we may as well ascribe advantages to all things Hillary. Approximately 50 percent of all Americans can’t imagine ever voting for her? Advantage: Clinton! Widespread concern about having her husband’s influence back in the White House? Advantage: Clinton!

No, it’s hard to see the great advantage she has in being Hillary Clinton, let alone a woman.

So why position her gender as a leg up? While I don’t agree with Bill that Hillary’s “swiftboating” has begun, I can’t imagine that Team Rove doesn’t have a 3-point plan already making the rounds. Step one: Paint her as the “Teflon candidate.” Step two: trump up ads from the “Concerned Women of America Against Socialist Lesbian Killers.” Step three: traditional values voters eventually buy into this smear campaign, comforted by pundits’ assurances that, “It’s only fair.”

Hillary Clinton does herself no favors by playing it both ways; being a woman should neither protect her from rough competition nor win her extra votes. Yet don’t imagine for a New York minute that Clinton won a landslide senate victory because Rick Lazio was mean to her in a debate. She was up five points in the polls before ever stepping up to that podium.

Viable presidential candidates have always been a tough, thick-skinned bunch. We needn’t extend any special courtesies to the lone female in this race, the African-American, the Mormon, the 9/11 hero. Hit ‘em hard, but hit ‘em fair. Maybe then we can vote for what really matters: a man, or woman, who can truly lead this nation.

Advantage: Everyone.

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By Chilao

November 8, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

THREE major laughs in one topic.

  • Advantage, Shaunti? She, being a woman in our culture, is a disadvantage. Flat and simple. For this position, President, especially.

  • She being female has not inhibited a large portion of our population from ridiculing her and being outright nasty over Hillary Clinton, so plan on all that continuing, especially now, and yes, even from her opposers running for the same office.

  • Killed Vince Foster. Thanks, Andrea, for the funniest comment of all. The sad part is, I actually know people who believe that. Plus she has been seen in Chicago leaving some D**’s(sic) apartment late at night. You know, not that the person in Chicago saw it, but someone they know did(one of those things)..LMAO

    • For obvious security reasons, I did not comment earlier this week. LOL. But did forget to mention the B.C. basements.

    By BBT

    November 8, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

    Why do people vote for Hillary Clinton? I don’t get it. People hate the war, but they’re going to vote for Hillary who will continue it. Americans don’t necessarily like illegals coming here and taking jobs and welfare away from Americans, but Hillary’s all for illegals taking advantage of free health services, even though she’s for mandating legal Americans paying for health insurance. People believe that government is incompetent (i.e., FEMA botched Katrina), but they want it to take over their health care so that we can wait in lines AND pay a lot. Are people’s brains being radiated or soaked in some sort of chemical concoction?

    By No name please...

    November 8, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

    Once again, Andrea nails this one. Senator Clinton’s adversaries might step back into a more genteel stance while actually on the stage, but they have no problems with the off-stage hatchet jobs carried out by their people. Would Shaunti have us believe that the “conservative” men of this country will behave like gentlemen when this lady is speaking, so we can hear what she has to say? Ha!

    In truth, there are still millions of Americans, men and women, who are so afraid of the v-word, (especially one that has the kahones to stand up for herself) that the very thought of having a v-word in charge sends them hyperventillating into their little brown lunch bags. Grow up already!

    By The Other Jack

    November 8, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

    A great politician can get elected, no matter what. Hillary Clinton is one of the world’s premier politicians.

    She is smart. She is ruthless. She is as connected as any one in Washington. In fact, she IS the Democratic Machine in Washington. There is no one that is more on the inside. She can appear on any mainstream media outlet and she understands the value of baking cookies and chatting with Katie Coric about the vast right wing conspiracy as opposed to standing her ground across the table from Bill O’Rielly or even Chris Wallace as many like Rosy O’Donald have done. She is very slick in public, but she carefully chooses her “situations”.

    She is smarter than her husband and her strength of character is multiples of her husband.

    Here are the problems:

    Hillary is a pawn of the Insurance Companies. The Oil Companies probably don’t own her yet, but they will, depending on her success. Her health program will require that all Americans that can afford it, buy health insurance and the rest of the people will be covered by our government. Of course the 20,000 lbs elephant in the living room is Who gets to decide who can afford it? That’s another post, but the bottom line is that her program will require that every single American make use of the insurance industry’s product.

    Make no mistake in thinking that she will not pander because she already has.

    She is the most divisive candidate in America. While she and her teflon persona has rejected every attack, those attacks have only been rejected in the minds of her supporters and the mainstream media.

    Most people will not forget that she was her husband’s attack machine. Anyone standing up to the Clintons often paid with their professional lives.

    When she ran for the Senate, her original opponent was Rudy. It was no problem for her own attack machine to turn up an affair in which Rudy was involved. He dropped out of the race
    and her new opponent had just over a month to run against the most heavily funded, ruthless politician in history. She won that one by playing the brilliant politician and played the oldest card in history: destroy your opponent’s character.

    She is sleazy, she is slimy. She IS what corruption in Washington is all about.

    As a Republican, I would never, ever cross over and vote for Hillary. The only Democrat I would support is OBama. He is smart and he seems more level headed than anyone on either side. But more than anything else, he seems to be focused on finding viable solutions to many of our problems.

    Personally, I’m tired of the politics. As I said, Hillary is the worlds greatest politician.

    Nuf said.

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

    hey, somebody do the math for me please…if almost 60% of Democrats are women, and 27% of those women say that Hillary’s gender will make her a better POTUS…how do those numbers compare to the 11% of the general populace that say they will never, EVER vote for a woman, any woman? Now add in the negatives of that woman being Hillary Clinton…do the numbers indicate that her gender is, overall, an advantage?

    I don’t think so.

    there are still millions of Americans, men and women, who are so afraid of the v-word

    okay, call me “out of touch” but what ‘n da heck is “the v-word”?!

    By Chilao

    November 8, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

    Mara - I am a guy, with a p-word.

    Bet you don’t have one.

    Get it? LMAO

    By The Other Jack

    November 8, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

    No Name please

    Would Shaunti have us believe that the “conservative” men of this country will behave like gentlemen when this lady is speaking, so we can hear what she has to say? Ha!

    The conservative men of this country have been taught the difference between a female and a Lady. I have known many strong, dependent, women who understand the power of being a woman. I’m afraid that many American women have lost that awareness.

    I have also known many strong, dependent women who insist on a genderless persona. I’m more than willing to respect their wishes. I think Hillary Clinton is one of those women. I don’t think of her as a woman, but as a ruthless, brilliant politician.

    The fact that she is attempting to play the “woman card” is no more surprising than her use of any other of her vast supply of potent weapons. The woman tried to adapt an African American accent in Selma Alabama. She is the world’s greatest politician. Don’t be surprised at anything she would be willing to do.

    By Lyrazel

    November 8, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

    Yes of course Clinton has advantages—As for her being a woman candidate I think its irrelevant. She is not the first to do so. In 1972 Shirley Chisholm ran for President and (depending on what party) women have been running since the 1880s but now given a voice on the podium. Her handicaps are the programs that were established in her husband’s terms that just are no longer working for voters as well his past behavior being a liability not an asset. NAFTA has become a fatal to American jobs and without a job how does one contribute to a Natl. Health Care system? How does one overlook the subprime mortgages now in default that were allowed/created during the Clinton administration? The world is not the same place—and many liberal or democrat voters are terribly reluctant to have the pair back.

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

    Thanks, Chilao! LOL! Don’t know why I didn’t think of that.

    You’d think these euphamisms wouldn’t be needed for biological designations, eh? shaking head sadly I just don’t know what the world is coming to…

    ;^)

    By John in Tampa, FLA

    November 8, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

    I don’t care if a candidate is male, female, black, white, straight, gay, religious, atheist, old, young, etc.

    I want integrity, honesty and intelligence. i want somebody, anybody, who can get the job done and move us forward and not into another quagmire like we have now. I couldn’t care less how it is packaged.

    By lozen

    November 8, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

    The conservative men of this country have been taught the difference between a female and a Lady. (Jeez, what the heck does that mean? The liberal men of this country have NOT of course been taught the difference?) I have known many strong, dependent, women who understand the power of being a woman. (As a strong, independent woman I’d like to know exactly what you think the power of being a woman is please. And how you learned that exactly.)

    I’m afraid that many American women have lost that awareness. Please explain what this statement means. Thank you.

    By Gandalf, the Grey

    November 8, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

    Andrea, WTF! you aren’t supposed to let the cat out of the bag on Rodham killing Vince Foster! What are you thinking! Everyone knows she is a lesbian, that’s old hat, but the Vince Foster thing had kinda blown over. Andrea, you again show that you are a complete idiot. Too bad that other girl died, she at least show some spark of intellect. You are an OXYGEN THIEF!

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

    lozen - don’t you know that the power of being a woman is being able and willing to use sex to manipulate men? They say that behind every successful man is a strong woman telling him what to do.

    As TOJ said, many American women have lost this awareness…LOL!

    joking

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

    okay…it’s just getting silly now.

    http://rawstory.com/news/2007/FoxrepeatsclaimHillaryhadcat1107.html

    Kathleen Willey (the woman who began the whole Whitewater/Bill’s-a-rapist/Clinton Drug Cartel foofaraw) has come out with a book in which she alleges the Clintons were involved in the murder of her husband and an attempt to steal an early manuscript of the book. Oh, and she alleges that Hillary contracted a private detective named Palladino to murder two of her housecats.

    Just a little amuse-bouche to the feast of crap in store for us if Hillary does win the primaries.

    By Anonymous

    November 8, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

    Wow, talk about zooming past the obvious.

    Who CARES how the other candidates, or even the media, treat Hillary ‘because she’s a woman’? Her gender is already a big enough handicap with the voters themselves.

    There are lots and lots of morons out there—male AND female—who will simply refuse to elect a woman to a position of high power and responsibility, “because she’s a woman.” Her gender is a handicap as much as Obama’s race is.

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

    oh, and I almost forgot.

    Congratulations to all my gay blogbuddies out there. You can no longer be fired merely for being who you are. You now have the same job protections as I do. Yea!

    By Anonymous

    November 8, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

    Gandalf: GREAT parody of the idiocy of a typical Faux News viewer and Rush Limbaugh listener. Very funny stuff.

    You, uh, WERE kidding… right?

    By The Other Jack

    November 8, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

    Iozen

    LOL! Yea, I know. You can’t correct these things once they are posted and I saw that as soon as it posted. independent was the word. Thanks for being kind in pointing that out.

    The liberal men of this country have NOT of course been taught the difference?

    The original statement I was responding to was made about conservative men and I was addressing that comment.

    As a strong, independent woman I’d like to know exactly what you think the power of being a woman is please. And how you learned that exactly.

    Women have always been the strong people in my life. I know and understand what that power is, but I can’t explain it.

    I’m afraid that many American women have lost that awareness. Please explain what this statement means. Thank you.

    I’m sure I am going to make everyone mad here. I have been single for six years and have dated quite a bit. When I first started dating, I dated women people would fix me up with.

    I would pick them up. They would usually be dressed slightly more masculine than me. Some of them were just flat out angry about whatever I said or did. I am a conservative so I always avoided talking politics, but everyone is an activist.

    The dates were miserable affairs where I was constantly walking on eggs, not knowing whether to open a door for someone or pay for a meal. They weren’t dates, they were gender competitions and I was losing from the start.

    Then I met a woman from Kiev. I met her through a professional situation where she was a very powerful and smart business woman. During work, she was as businesslike as anyone I have ever seen.

    When I picked her up for our date, she was wearing a really nice, sexy dress, heels, opened the door smiling and I’m not sure either one of us stopped smiling all night.

    I was able to be a gentleman. I never feared opening doors for her. She expected it and understood that it was a gesture of respect. We talked about music, art, travel, films. Her accent made me feel like James Bond and I WANTED to be James Bond for this woman. Everywhere we went, she became the center of attention, not because of the way she looked, but because of the way she carried herself. She made ME feel like a million bucks by just having the honor of being with her.

    It was that European attitude that so many Americans hate, but when you know the kindness and intelligence behind that attitude, that attitude becomes strength.

    She was only here for a short while and I REALLY hated to see her return to Europe.

    I have since dated American women that were a lot like her, but they are rare. They are usually either pretty and dumb as a rock or attractive, but terrified that anyone would actually see a woman standing there in those khaki pants, loafers and a button-up dress shirt.

    OK. The target is directly on my forehead. Let ‘er fly!!

    By No name please...

    November 8, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

    The conservative men of this country have been taught the difference between a female and a Lady.

    Are you telling us that your upbringing as a “conservative” qualifies you to arbitrarily decide which women are and certainly are NOT deserving of respect and civility? Interesting.

    She was her husband’s attack machine. She is sleazy, she is slimy. She IS what corruption in Washington is all about.

    Why, thank you so much for the enlightenment! But, these are your opinions, right? If you really want the good people of this blog to share your views about this um.. female-not-lady, why not bring some facts with verifiable sources instead of just the vitriol of your own feelings? You know, go beyond sound bites half the story type stuff and really bring on the facts. (For example, “she’s a socialist” doesn’t count unless you define the term and cite concrete examples supporting the conclusion.) If you actually have something, that is. Just a suggestion.

    By The Other Jack

    November 8, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

    Mara

    ozen - don’t you know that the power of being a woman is being able and willing to use sex to manipulate men?

    Sadly enough, that is exactly what I would expect most American women to think I was talking about.

    That isn’t in the same universe as what I was talking about. But I couldn’t have written a better statement about what I think is wrong with most American women.

    By chuck

    November 8, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

    I posted this this morning before the change over to the new topic. I wanted to respond to something NetB said yesterday and it kind of goes better with this topic anyway so I’m reposting it. As for Hillary’s gender, I couldn’t care less. I wouldn’t vote for her because of her last name.

    NetB

    Personal, private, moral behavior WAS important due to the relevance of Bill Clinton’s pecadillos, but NOW they aren’t so important…besides with the exception of Mitt haven’t ALL the Republican candidates been married more than once? And Mitt doesn’t count because he’s a Mormon, not a Christian.

    Actually, Mike Huckabee married his high school sweetheart and they have been married for about 30 years or so.

    Yes, personal, private, MORAL behavior is still important to Republicans…at least the Social Conservatives in the party. It’s NEVER been important to the other side of the party. Personally, I don’t see how you can compare what Clinton did with what Giuliani did because they were 2 very different things. This week Kathleen Willey’s book came out. It is called “Target: Caught in the Crosshairs of Bill and Hillary Clinton.” She was a CLINTON SUPPORTER and claimed that not only did he rape her, but she believes He OR SHE, had her husband killed. I don’t know whether or not the second allegation is true, but I sure believe her on the first one. There is NO EXCUSE for what Clinton did with Lewinsky in the White House.

    I think you should also look at the difference between Prominent Republicans and Democrats when they get caught with “their pants down”. Livingston and Newt resigned. Clinton CELEBRATED.

    That said, I could not possibly vote for Giuliani FOR ANY REASON. If he can’t be trusted to keep sacred vows that he made to his own wife, how can we trust him to keep his vow to protect and defend the Constitution.

    My first reaction to Mike Huckabee was, “I can’t vote for a governor from ARKANSAS. That’s just too surreal.” The more that I look at him though, the better I feel about supporting him. I think of all the Republican candidates, he has the cleanest record of conservatism…both fiscal and social. I think he would do a great job as president, though I think he may have to grow into the job a bit.

    The only thing that I disagree with him about is his support of the “Fair Tax” plan being pushed by Neal Boortz. I can get over that though because I don’t think it ever has a prayer of becoming law. Personally I prefer a flat tax plan of some sort. The main thing to me however is not HOW we pay our taxes but rather HOW MUCH we pay in taxes.

    By chuck

    November 8, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

    I posted this this morning before the change over to the new topic. I wanted to respond to something NetB said yesterday and it kind of goes better with this topic anyway so I’m reposting it. As for Hillary’s gender, I couldn’t care less. I wouldn’t vote for her because of her last name.

    NetB

    Personal, private, moral behavior WAS important due to the relevance of Bill Clinton’s pecadillos, but NOW they aren’t so important…besides with the exception of Mitt haven’t ALL the Republican candidates been married more than once? And Mitt doesn’t count because he’s a Mormon, not a Christian.

    Actually, Mike Huckabee married his high school sweetheart and they have been married for about 30 years or so.

    Yes, personal, private, MORAL behavior is still important to Republicans…at least the Social Conservatives in the party. It’s NEVER been important to the other side of the party. Personally, I don’t see how you can compare what Clinton did with what Giuliani did because they were 2 very different things. This week Kathleen Willey’s book came out. It is called “Target: Caught in the Crosshairs of Bill and Hillary Clinton.” She was a CLINTON SUPPORTER and claimed that not only did he rape her, but she believes He OR SHE, had her husband killed. I don’t know whether or not the second allegation is true, but I sure believe her on the first one. There is NO EXCUSE for what Clinton did with Lewinsky in the White House.

    I think you should also look at the difference between Prominent Republicans and Democrats when they get caught with “their pants down”. Livingston and Newt resigned. Clinton CELEBRATED.

    That said, I could not possibly vote for Giuliani FOR ANY REASON. If he can’t be trusted to keep sacred vows that he made to his own wife, how can we trust him to keep his vow to protect and defend the Constitution.

    My first reaction to Mike Huckabee was, “I can’t vote for a governor from ARKANSAS. That’s just too surreal.” The more that I look at him though, the better I feel about supporting him. I think of all the Republican candidates, he has the cleanest record of conservatism…both fiscal and social. I think he would do a great job as president, though I think he may have to grow into the job a bit.

    The only thing that I disagree with him about is his support of the “Fair Tax” plan being pushed by Neal Boortz. I can get over that though because I don’t think it ever has a prayer of becoming law. Personally I prefer a flat tax plan of some sort. The main thing to me however is not HOW we pay our taxes but rather HOW MUCH we pay in taxes.

    By The Other Jack

    November 8, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

    No Name please

    Are you telling us that your upbringing as a “conservative” qualifies you to arbitrarily decide which women are and certainly are NOT deserving of respect and civility? Interesting.

    For progressives, I have never seen so many reading comprehension problems. It isn’t me that defines whether a woman is a Lady, it is her. It is always the woman who is more than ready to tell you exactly how she wants to be defined.

    Politicians rarely deserve respect. Why do you think Hillary does?

    why not bring some facts with verifiable sources instead of just the vitriol of your own feelings?

    This is an opinion forum. It is in the opinion section of the AJC. Get it? If I were teaching a class, I would have such references.

    Take a look up and down the postings, Einstein. How many references do you see and how many opinions do you see? Or are you just a fairly dim witted person who believes that only persons who don’t walk in goosestep with your own close-minded thinking should be held to a different standard.

    By chuck

    November 8, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

    Ki…er, I mean NNP:

    Are you telling us that your upbringing as a “conservative” qualifies you to arbitrarily decide which women are and certainly are NOT deserving of respect and civility? Interesting.

    It is not about civility and respect. Most men who grew up in the 50’s and 60’s, especially in the South, were taught to be gentlemen. All of the television shows that we watched like Leave It To Beaver and Andy Griffith and most others took great pains and went to great lengths to model how men should treat Ladies. These show also showed us how LADIES were supposed to act.

    Now if you look at women in the political realm, which ones act civilly towards others. It sure isn’t Hillary, or Nancy Pelosi, or Maxine Waters. They say the VILEST things about ANYBODY who isn’t in lock step with their own political ideology. Then you have people like Condi Rice, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Sandra Day O’Connor (the last 2 being people with whom I often disagree) who always take the high road. There is a difference in the way they are treated by their opponents BECAUSE it is the way they treat others…You know, that Golden Rule thing.

    By Archie

    November 8, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

    To Shanti I say there is no advantage and Andrea points out why Hillary doesn’t have an advantage in the first three paragraphs of her rebuttal. I think in some ways she has a disadvantage being a woman because a lot of religions believe that a woman should never be in charge of a man and if elected president well Hillary would be in charge of a lot of men. I like what Andrea says about being fair but yes Hillary’s gender is a disadvantage in this race.

    By Zack

    November 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

    Many people are going to vote for her simply because she’s a woman.

    Period.

    I’d hardly call that reality a disadvantage.

    In fairness, many might opt not to vote for her for the same reason, but I think it’ll be more due to the fact that she has exposed herself over the years as having ideologies that don’t deserve votes.

    Feminists can take offense all they want, but there are indeed separate gender roles. I’m not saying a woman couldn’t be a great advisor; a female leader, at best, is not your first option.

    By No name please...

    November 8, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

    Ahh… insulting the intelligence those who dare to engage you in discussing your own words. How many tactics did you reject before deciding on that one? Einstein indeed.

    Yaaaawwwwwwnnnn! Somebody wake me when the dude actually says something.

    By HAHAHAHAHA!

    November 8, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

    “Leave It To Beaver and Andy Griffith …. showed us how LADIES were supposed to act.”

    By NetBanker

    November 8, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

    don’t you know that the power of being a woman is being able and willing to use sex to manipulate men? NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!!! Mara, have you learned NOTHING in all of our blogging?!! The power of being a woman is supposed to be about being able and willing to WITHHOLD sex to manipulate men. You’re not supposed to enjoy it and NEVER have it outside of marriage. Sheesh…work with me here, would ya?

    By Archie

    November 8, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

    Her gender is a handicap as much as Obama’s race is.

    I agree with that statement Anonymous and someone will say it’s not true and they will turn around and bash Hillary using derogatory terms to describe her that are known to be derogatory towards women.

    By John in Tampa, FLA

    November 8, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

    If Hillary would just b*** slap her opponents during one of her debates, she would get tons of votes.

    Vote early, vote often.

    By Monica Blewbillski

    November 8, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

    Well geez, the white guys haven’t done such a good job running the country recently.

    How could a woman do any worse?

    Will she get us into a war with no exit plan? Will the price of oil skyrocket under her administration? Will the deficit go thru the roof? Will terrorists strike on American soil? Will the housing/mortgage industry tank on her watch? Will health insurance suddenly become an issue under her admin?

    Even if Hillary is elected and fails miserably, how would that make her any different than what we have had during our lifetimes?

    By Lily Toad

    November 8, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

    Congratulations to all my gay blogbuddies out there. You can no longer be fired merely for being who you are. You now have the same job protections as I do. Yea! Mara, thanks for the congrats, but Bush is threatenting a veto!

    On topic, as a life-long feminist, I’d love to see a woman president, but not Sen. Clinton, because I don’t think she’ll make the changes I’d like to see, such as, ending the war in Iraq and having a REAL Universal Health care system. Bill Clinton calling her opponents’ attacks “swiftboating” is a gross exaggeration (until they bring up the Vince Foster murder). But, women will identify with her being belittled because every woman has been belittled by men at some point in her life, and that identification will help her.

    By lozen

    November 8, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

    Ideologies? That’s a mighty big word for our old Zack! The antiquated ideas match but ….???? “….there are indeed separate gender roles. I’m not saying a woman couldn’t be a great advisor; a female leader, at best, is not your first option.” That, ladies and gentlemen, is because men have always done such a great job as leaders! Just take a look at history and you will see the truth! I was in a group discussion last night and one of the women said, “If we’d spent all these billions on alternative energy instead of fighting a war over oil, we would have solved our energy problem!” I would vote for her! She could be my leader fer shur. How does Zack know women wouldn’t be great leaders, boys and girls? Because his preacher told him so. That’s how Zack knows everything. Zack/his preacher worship a book written thousands of years ago by men who didn’t want women getting any of what they saw as their power. Believe it or not, that book is very, very important even today to men who don’t want women getting any of what they see as their power! How wonderful it would be if all women wore dresses and heels and smiled all the time! And chuck… the good old days when women were girls and men were men! Ah, if only we could return to the days of father knows best! How happy he would be.

    By Mara

    November 8, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

    Net - The power of being a woman is supposed to be about being able and willing to WITHHOLD sex to manipulate men

    ROTFLMAO!!!! That’s what I meant to say…LOL!!

    You’re not supposed to enjoy it and NEVER have it outside of marriage

    according to that nutjob-without-a-spellcheck last week, all sex even IN marriage will kill or maim ya!

    Save a life, just say NO!

    By Chilao

    November 8, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

    The biggest drawback to me with Hillary Clinton as the Democratic nominee is electability.

    Bill Richardson is the Playboy interview this month, and as much as I like him(qualifications), he reads like just another calculating politico. I am not yet done with the interview read.

    Will she get us into a war with no exit plan? Will the price of oil skyrocket under her administration? Will the deficit go thru the roof? Will terrorists strike on American soil? Will the housing/mortgage industry tank on her watch? Will health insurance suddenly become an issue under her admin?

    actually, if all of those items can be delayed just a few years, they WILL get blamed on her, if she wins.

    By Archie

    November 8, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

    Lily, Hillary will end the war as soon as she can and she will get the universal healthcare she can get because you must remember a president doesn’t have all-power in his/her hands so they do what they when they can. Not one candidate will just outright end this war if elected and if you confront them with their words they will tell you that you misinterpreted what they said. Once Bush is out of office and the political timing is right this Iraq war will end.

    As for the subprime mortgages being in default I don’t think you blame Clinton or Bush but people themselves buying a house they simply couldn’t afford. I read about people’s financial issues all the time in Black Enterprise and the Cnn website and basically, americans don’t manage their money very well. When I looked at the debt diet show on Oprah it was painfully obvious that it matters more to people how they are seen than how they manage their money. People have to be held responsible for their behavior be it the president or the general public.

    By lozen

    November 8, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

    Netbanker,yeah! Yeah, that was about the only “power” most women had before the 60’s! You didn’t do “IT” if you wanted him to marry you! So a lot of women held on to that virginity because it was the only bargaining chip they had! Now let us not talk about all the things one could participate in without losing that commodity!

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    By Mara

    November 12, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this

    did anyone notice that all the posts from Friday have disappeared?!

    what’s up with the W2W tech team?

    By The Other Jack

    November 12, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

    No Name Please Ahh… insulting the intelligence those who dare to engage you in discussing your own words. How many tactics did you reject before deciding on that one? Einstein indeed.

    Insult your intelligence? You are the one demanding references on an opinion forum. i.e. you would need to show some intelligence before I could insult your intelligence.

    Sorry to hurt your widdle feelings. I would suggest you temper your own responses before you whine about others not tempering theirs.

    By The Other Jack

    November 12, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this

    Mara

    What is all this advertising spamming? I’m not here that much. Is this a common thing?

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

    Mara - I was impressed that my first post on this topic, done last Friday, stayed WITH the topic as I fully expected it to have disappeared, and historically it would have. And I actually heard that Chicago thing from someone who used to live there. LOL

    Maybe they did drug-testing of the ITers, and kicked any who tested positive up into management. LMAO

    TOJ - yeah, spam happens here(it is being done by an automated process, it inclined to happen anywhere on the web that allows open posting); they/ajc clean it up eventually.

    By Mara

    November 12, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

    Chilao - LOL @ testing the IT folks!!

    I was impressed that my first post on this topic, done last Friday, stayed WITH the topic as I fully expected it to have disappeared, and historically it would have.

    I can only see posts from last Thursday, the 8th. And one from Billy on the 11th.

    TOJ - yes, spam happens. Usually it’s just a sprinkling but sometimes it’ll overwhelm the blog until the IT dept, in their own time, choose to do something about it.

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

    Now I was not implying if you smoke weed you would be unable to do accurate maintenance on a website. Why, one of the heaviest weed smokers I know does web maintenance for many small businesses and local community groups. Looks good, too.

    He’s actually an evolved graphic artist. Actually he is a print-maker/artist but has to make a living you know.

    By lovelyliz

    November 12, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

    Given the history in this country of electing white Anglo-Saxon, Prodestant Christian males, I would have to say that anything that makes a presidential candidate “different”, ie. being a woman, works against them.

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

    Mara, yeah, my bad, they posted the new topic Thursday, not Friday. I got the dates confused.

    By Mara

    November 12, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

    Chilao - fuggeddaboudit :^)

    anybody see the article about that deputy director of intelligence insisting that American’s must get over their fetish with personal privacy/anonymity? Evidently the new definition of “privacy” is going to be “personal information hidden behind government or commercial firewalls”. It’s no longer “your” information, folks.

    excerpt -

    Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence.

    Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguard people’s private communications and financial information.

    Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are “perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data.”

    Millions of people in this country, particularly young people, already have surrendered anonymity to social networking sites such as MySpace and Facebook, and to Internet commerce. These sites reveal to the public, government and corporations what was once closely guarded information, like personal statistics and credit card numbers.

    “Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it’s not for us to inflict one size fits all,” said Kerr, 68. “Protecting anonymity isn’t a fight that can be won…”

    “Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety,” Kerr said. “I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but (also) what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn’t empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere.”

    Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr’s argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.

    “Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms,” Opsahl said. “The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together.”

    Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.

    “There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties,” he said. “We shouldn’t have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy.”

    “It’s just another ‘trust us, we’re the government,’” he said.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/11/AR2007111100289.html

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

    That reminds me of the IT guy on NPR recently; seems he used to work for an AT&T internet hub in the Bay Area, and there was a government secured room, and the big internet traffic data line had a splitter on it, one line went into the secured room.

    And he actually documented it all REAL WELL before he left; otherwise I am sure we would be hearing “Yeah? What? Naw, we didn’t, can you prove that?”.

    By Anonymity

    November 12, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

    Whenever possible, pay cash. The banks prefer you to swipe your little card for everything, even a tuna on rye. The records of your little swipey card are the first thing the government looks at when wondering if you’ve done something they don’t like. They document the most intimate details of your life: what you eat, what medicines you buy, where you drive, what you read, and what you buy your mother for Christmas. If you pay cash, there’s no record, and you know they don’t like that. Not only can they not track your every move for the government, but they can’t target you with direct marketing. Our privacy is gone, to be sure. But the more you pay in cash, the more of yourself you get to keep.

    For now, anyway.

    By Mara

    November 12, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

    Chilao - Mark Klein is the man to whom you’re referring. He worked at AT&T for 22 years. He’s in DC lobbying against lawsuit immunity for the telecoms who collaborated with the NSA to circumvent FISA requirements and illegally monitor vast amounts of citizen-to-citizen communication.

    He has my thanks and admiration.

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

    THE news, and shouldhavebeen ANY football.

    Mara - I heard that the Democrats(late last week?) had made retro any protections for the telecoms for engaging in criminal activity. Gotta appear tough on terrorism, you know, an election is coming up.

    By Mara

    November 12, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

    Chilao - they’d kinda have to make the protections retroactive as most of the 40+ lawsuits they’re being faced with all challenge past actions. I find the whole situation ludecrous. Why do they need “immunity” if they honestly believe that they did nothing wrong? If they’re confident that they followed all applicable laws (as surely their multi-million dollar legal department assured them they were…)they should be more intent on proving their innocence than in hiding behind their bought-and-paid-for government flunkies.

    By lozen

    November 12, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

    Chuck’s comment about Father Knows Best, Andy Griffith, ladies and gentlemen reminded me of inadvertently being caught up in a confederate memorial day celebration one year. An older white haired woman was speaking about how wonderful the old south was when courtesy ruled and men were gentlemen and women were ladies. Standing in the crowd were a handful of black ppl, the horror of their lives in the old south being completely ignored of course. The 50’s/60’s were not that great for me and a lot of other women either. If I have to choose between having my own credit or waiting for a man to open a door for me, I’ll take my credit card thank you! I’ve never had any problem opening my own door. If I have to smile all the time, constantly shore up male egos and never have a sexual life (unless I’m married) to be called a lady, just call me a sl-t! It’s always seemed to me that ladies didn’t have any fun. It’s always seemed to me that if you poked a lady she would break into a million brittle pieces. It’s always seemed to me that ladies give up being human to be called ladies. And father does not always know best! It’s interesting how differently we view the past depending on who and what we are and how different our experiences were.

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

    THE news, and shouldhavebeen ANY football

    this was in reference to a Post for Jack about football, but it never showed up. Maybe the government is trying to decode it. LOL

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

    Mara - your fuggeddaboudit made me think of that Hugh Grant movie, Mickey Blue Eyes, He a Brit in NYC, gets engaged to a mobster’s daughter, and has to learn the business ropes, if only to pass as a mobster for some higher-level mobsters.

    and has to learn how to CORRECTLY say fuggeddaboudit. Forgettable movie but hilarious scene.

    By Anonymous

    November 12, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

    The “good old days” were only good for the upper- to upper-middle class white guys, and those who enjoyed serving them.

    If that’s the price of living in an era of Civility and Respect (i.e., deference to those white guys)—we’re better off without it.

    By Jack

    November 12, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

    Anonymous. Very good. Bring race into the blog. That ups your credibility a whole bunch.

    By lozen

    November 12, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

    Hey Jack. I’m the one that brought race into the blog darlin’. What’s up with you and your anger whenever the fact comes up that there’s more than one race and we’ve had different experiences due to that?

    By Chilao

    November 12, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

    Jack - that missing post to you had to do with some TV news item about a Auburn 50-0 you posted last week. I thought of you when the TV news played. LOL

    I don’t really follow any football, but I don’t think it happened.

    By Jack

    November 12, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

    No it didn’t Chilao, the crow doesn’t taste too good today. Sick of race always being brought up. Give it a break. Oh I forgot, this is Atlanta, Chocolate City of the South. We must remember to introduce race in any forum. makes the black man feel better.

    By AGFNPR

    November 12, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

    Lozen,

    I agree with most of what you said in your 11:39 post. The good old days weren’t good for everybody. I do understand how your experiences have shaped your viewpoints.

    But please understand that many of us have had different experiences that have shaped our views. My grandmother and grandfather got married during the depression and immediately started a family. Times were hard and money was scarce. But the hard times coupled with life in a traditional “father knows best” type of environment did not negatively affect her. She loved and respected my grandfather until the day he died. She was a sweet and wonderful woman - a lady in every sense of the word. Some of my fondest memories from my childhood are the family trips we took to visit my grandparents. Despite her sweet exterior, she was also tough as nails on the inside. Anyone attempting to poke her would have found their finger broken into a million pieces!

    And no, their home was not perfect like Ozzie and Harriet. The family had its share of sibling rivalries and other problems. But ultimately, they had the kind of life that I want for me and my family.

    And before you say it, my grandmother never complained that she was tied down, or treated like a second class citizen, or that she didn’t enjoy life. As a matter of fact not too many years ago we were at her house watching TV (shortly after the death of my grandfather) and a commercial for Viagra came on. Out of the blue my grandmother stated “let me tell you, my husband never needed anything like that”. We almost died laughing, as this type of statement was completely out of character for her. But the comment was not made in a raunchy manner, she was simply paying respect to the man she had loved for a lifetime.

    By Anonymous

    November 12, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

    Jack: Any time some fool starts pining for the “good old days” of Mayberry and ladylike behavior (and Jim Crow, and segregation), the reminder needs to be made: The Good Old Days were only good for SOME, not all.

    By Peeved

    November 13, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

    Bush - Clinton - Bush - Clinton !!! Stop the madness, this ain’t no video game.

    By Mara

    November 13, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

    tough time posting yesterday. spent a good ten minutes writing, editing, and re-writing a post regarding AGFNPR’s granny and whether such a tough old bird would have complained about how life turned out. Had to wonder if anyone ever asked her, hypothetically, if she’d have had the opportunities then that we have today, might she have made different decisions. (sigh) It was a great post and a nicely balanced paragraph. All in all, a satisfactory bit of writing. Unfortunately, after I hit “post”…poof…and it was gone.

    at least the spam’s gone…

    By Chilao

    November 13, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

    Two of my posts late in the day disappeared as well, trivia related to seeing Jack Nicholson a few nights ago on the Andy Griffith show in court being tried for a burglary, a very young Jack Nicholson. The Juror was the episode name and he was 30, but looked 20.

    Also commented on the concept of The Good Ole Days (everybody back then was whining complaining about the current state of affairs, making some reference to even some earlier time ‘good ole days’ so they must not have been that good even then..>LOL)

    but I gave up on losts posts. Maybe mgmt did not like the promotion of the IT druggies…I thought later it might also imply I never could figure out which management was on or not on drugs, based on some of their decisions. LMAO

    By chuck

    November 13, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

    Peeved, you are exactly right. Let’s not go back to that madness ever again. Things haven’t been right since Reagan left office.

    Billy, as usual, you are an idiot. If ANYBODY is treating Hillary poorly, it’s her own party. BUT…Any woman who gets into the political fray is going to be subject to criticism FOR THEIR OWN RECORD just like any MAN would be. It’s called EQUALITY.

    By Archie

    November 13, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

    Any time some fool starts pining for the “good old days” of Mayberry and ladylike behavior (and Jim Crow, and segregation), the reminder needs to be made: The Good Old Days were only good for SOME, not all.

    I used to make the statements above all the time, Anonymous.

    Standing in the crowd were a handful of black ppl, the horror of their lives in the old south being completely ignored of course. Yes,Lozen that happens often but you’re a good lady to notice that.

    By Chilao

    November 13, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

    Jack Nicholson’s character was not the burglar, Aunt Bee hung out for a hung-jury to not convict him and coming to find out, the burglar was another guy hanging around the court, always asking if the jury was still out, seems he knew way too much about the case, stuff that was not in court testimony.

    but the point was just because 11 want to convict, does not make you guilty. Aunt Bee questioned it and coming to find out, she was right. Kind of a variation on mob-appeal or just because a high percentage of the population think something is right, does not make it so.

    This is a show(Andy Griffith Show) I only see now as reruns, never saw when it was on TV originally. Parents never had a TV until us kids were all grown up. Acting being outright lying and all that..LOL. Plus those actors/actresses are of such low-moral fiber. (parroting my mom). Of course I instantly found Marilyn Monroe immediately attractive, when I heard that.

    By Peeved

    November 13, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

    If we ignore Hillary, will she go away?

    By Mara

    November 13, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

    LOL!! Friday was the day we discussed drugs, growing drugs, drug sentencing, and the War on Drugs, wasn’t it?! HA! No wonder the posts went missing…guilty consciences :^)

    By Miffed

    November 13, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

    If we ignore Hillary, will she go away?

    Did that work on your wife?

    By Chilao

    November 13, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

    Since I have never worked at the ajc, OBVIOUSLY I was not talking about ajc management; just a 30,000 feet conceptual thing overall, based on work experience. LOL

    of course, if the shoe fits..

    Yes, Friday, WAS a good day to have database corruption issues. we thank you, ajc ITer.

    By lozen

    November 13, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

    Yes, things were so good when we had that actor as prez! It was the beginning of the total selfishness in this country that reigns today. It was the glorious time of cutting funds that helped people in this country. It was the end of mental institutions for the poor. It was the beginning of justifying cutting off aid for poor people and calling single mothers “welfare queens”. Every time I see some poor homeless person walking down the street mumbling to her/him self I thank goodness for Ronnie as prez.

    By lozen

    November 13, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

    Hey Mara, I had some of the same thoughts but just didn’t have the energy to respond. My poor mother-in-law never complained either. She didn’t know things could be different. She was a very sweet, kind, christian woman. She cleaned and ironed and cooked and washed from sunup to sundown. Her thanks for that was to be her husband’s whipping post whenever things weren’t to his liking. If she wanted to discuss something he didn’t want to hear, he just told her to shut up and she tucked her tail between her legs and slunk away… smiling! Believe it or not, she was my heroine in the first years of my marriage until I saw what her kindness,lady-like actions and hard work got her. She was treated like a dog and didn’t know it could be different. I used to wish she would bi-ch slap that old man for sure. She probably had more to do with me becoming a feminist than anybody. It’s rather amazing too that my mother made the same comment about my father never needing any Viagra a short while after his death. All it took for my father to become the perfect man/husband all of a sudden was for him to die!

    By Archie

    November 13, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

    Lozen,Hello, I cannot tell you what to think of your parents so please know I am not doing that with the following commentary. Your parents were taught the man’s is the head and lord of his household and he could do what he wanted so your dad did what he thought a man was supposed to do. If your dad had been taught differently he may not have done things the way he did. I personally think some of today’s women could be more ladylike and less selfish but I like independent women and I don’t tell anyone in my house to shut up but I expect that same kind of respect. Many of today’s women think it’s feminist to tell a man to “shut up”, but I think it’s just rude and selfish and if that kind of talk is used with me I will respond in an unkind manner.

    Also Lozen, I enjoyed your 11:20 am post.

    B