AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2007 > October > 06 > Entry
Is feminism to blame for the ‘happiness gap’?
Andrea Cornell Sarvady, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Bad news this month for women, experts at trying to Be All Things to All People: You’re flunking Self-Esteem 101. Two separate research studies, by economists from Princeton and the University of Pennsylvania, reveal a troubling fact: Men are happier than they were 30 years ago, while women are less satisfied. Thus, the “Happiness Gap” is christened.
Hear that crunch in the forest? It’s right-wing pundits, gathering kindling to burn the women’s movement at the stake. After all, what else could be to blame for our discontent?
Yet if we can grab the matches away from the anti-feminist brigade - ironically, filled with women whose big careers and supportive mates are byproducts of the movement - we’ll understand the true complexities that face us.
It’s telling that the Pennsylvania study showed increased dissatisfaction across the board for women, regardless of marital or work status, age or income. Also revealing is data showing that kids get happier at equal rates - until young women approach adulthood.
Why? Though the study considers fallout from the woman’s movement as a possible factor, more theories point to the anxiety that comes from multi-tasking ourselves into the ground. Unlike men, we can’t seem to let go of putting everyone on our To Do list, even as that list grows longer than our commutes and carpool routes.
Yet men report having fewer unpleasant tasks each week, even as they’ve increased their domestic loads to accommodate working wives. So much for the old hue and cry that equality demanded female gains at the expense of men.
Feminism is also hardly to blame for the surge in plastic surgery and persistence of Martha Stewart Mania. It’s more that, in this fast-paced world, we view every new idea as a royal command - and we’re the queens, commanding ourselves to perfection.
Limiting our career options won’t increase happiness; lowering our stratospheric standards just might. After all, choice is what we fought for, but it never meant choose everything. So add up your accomplishments, cut yourself some slack, and learn to say “no,” Ladies. Your very happiness is at stake. Don’t send it up in flames.
Rebuttal
The reason women feel so pressured isn’t because the choices exist but because feminism told us we should seize them all! Feminism wasn’t just about equality for women, but about pushing the Superwoman addiction. But as all frazzled Superwomen know, that’s a recipe for nervous breakdown - or for years of regret down the road.
I was blessed with a college-graduate mom who chose to be a domestic engineer. But in the 1970’s she was ridiculed so much for her stay-at-home status that she dreaded talking about it, and hearing condescending women say, “That’s all you do?”
Yet I’m sure my mother is far more happy - not less - for her choice to wait on her nursing career until we were older, instead of trying to have it all, all at once.
Carrie Lukas, VP of the Independent Women’s Forum and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Women, Sex, and Feminism, shared in an interview how hurtful feminist messages can be to women’s happiness. For example, she found feminist literature tended to “Only focus on the negative problems of marriage, which contributes to the idea that marriage is disposable. But married women in general are much happier!”
One of feminism’s biggest and most devastating myths is that you can “have it all,” but as Lukas also pointed out, “Having choices doesn’t mean you don’t have to make a choice. There are going to be sacrifices no matter what choice you make.”
I agree it’s significant that the “Happiness Gap” study found increased dissatisfaction for women across the board - but for a very different reason. Most women have a deep desire for someone to share their life with, to have children and watch them grow. There’s nothing wrong with seizing our modern workplace opportunities. But if a woman pursues those opportunities at the expense of those personal desires, and then finds that she’s lonely, past child-bearing age, or has missed the key moments in her children’s lives, why wouldn’t she have regrets?
I believe women would be far happier if feminism had been content with just pressing for equality for women - and hadn’t made that last paragraph so politically incorrect.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
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By Billy
October 7, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this
No. Feminism is about equality and choice. That includes the choice not to have a career as well as the choice to tell those who criticize your decision not to have a career that they can stick it. As much as it may surprise Shaunti, it also includes the choice to have both a career and a home life with kids. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Plenty of women do both and are perfectly happy, just as there are plenty of single, childless career women who are happy and plenty of stay-at-home moms who are miserable.
The unhappiness stems, I’d wager, from society in general. We live in a culture in which consumerism is the ultimate virtue. One third of the country hates another third, and the feeling is mutual. The remaining third can’t make up its mind. When you really examine our society, there’s a lot to be unhappy about. My wife and I are pretty happy, though, and it’s largely due to feminism. Without the feminist movement we probably wouldn’t have had the contraceptive choices available to us that we did…choices that allowed us to control when we started a family.
Really, Shaunti, it is more than balancing career and family. It is the pressure women largely put on themselves to do everything under the sun. You can have a job and family, and maybe a few hobbies and be fine. The unhappiness comes from an inability to say “No.” You don’t have to be on the PTA board, a Scout Den mother, etc. You don’t have to attend every single extracurricular activity to be a good mom. Some women do try to be “superwomen”, but feminism didn’t tell them to do that.
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By Gale
October 8, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this
Another study of the obvious. Male or female, the first step to happiness is love yourself, know yourself. The least happy women I know have a real problem with saying No. They seem to think they must be able to meet every demand; work and family. At some point, one needs to resect oneself. That means saying no to some requests and some demands. Husband needs a dinner party or BBQ? Maybe a caterer. Child needs a little league coach? Sorry Mommy doesn’t do baseball. No without a guilty thought. It isn’t that hard.
By USinUK
October 8, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this
Shaunti: The reason women feel so pressured isn’t because the choices exist but because feminism told us we should seize them all!
That is the biggest myth out there - and it’s a steaming pile of crap. Feminism has said “you can be ANYthing you want to be” - NOT “you can be EVERYthing you want to be … at once”. It makes me so angry my eyes ache everytime I read some ninny like Shaunti parrot this falsehood.
Why is there a happiness gap? Because women are making tremendous strides in the workplace, we’re nearing pay parity, and yet, we’re still pulling a second shift when we go home. Full day of work, plus making dinner, plus cleaning up, plus laundry, household chores, etc. We’re expected to excel at work while still pulling a Martha at home. It’s not that we’re unhappy - we’re tired. We’re frustrated. We want men to pick up the slack without having to be asked.
Or, maybe that’s just me.
But, if I had to trade the options that are open to me - education, a profession of my choice, the right to vote, the right to run for office, the rights over my own body - for the myth of the 1950s housewife’s “bliss”, it’s no contest. I’d gladly take every misstep I’ve made, every failure alongside every success, every miserable day I’ve had after a hard day in the office because it was a road I chose.
By RF
October 8, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this
Feminism has been about making sure women had choices. If a woman is unhappy, she- or any man for that matter- has a choice to do something about it. I believe the quote “happiness is a choice, not an automatic response” applies here. I’m thankful we live in a country where most of us can, in fact, choose what makes us happy. Feminism isn’t the culprit. In fact, without the feminist movement, I’ll wager women would be much, much more unhappy. As usual, Shaunti (who as a career woman/mother directly benefits from feminism) equates happiness with marriage and children. I know many women who want neither and are happier because they don’t feel pressured to be something they’re not. Happiness or unhappiness come from within. If you’re not happy, man or woman, then you have to either come to terms with what you have or do something to change it. Feminism, at least, gives women the right to do that.
By Just Being Me
October 8, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this
Is that my RF???? Heyyyyyy darlin! Long time no see!
(As for the subject at hand, I have no comment… haven’t we discussed this one way or another like… a GAZILLION times?? I’ll come back Wednesday once you guys have hijacked the topic. LOL)
By RF
October 8, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
JBM!!!! Lord bless my soul (the funeral home fan is flying!!) How in the world are you? We’re off for a week and I’m enjoying some much, much needed down time. I’m knocking the cobwebs off the front porch swing as we speak!
By Just Being Me
October 8, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
I’m doing well, darling. Blessed and loving life! How are you and those boys of yours doing? I come back to visit from time to time and I never see you!!! :-(
By Feminist
October 8, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
Women, like Shaunti, in today’s society are so ungrateful to the women before them who endured torture and abuse to give them the rights that they flippantly take for granted today.
Instead of insulting and degrading these women that came before us and paved our way, we as women, should all honor, appreciate and digify them.
I enjoy the right to vote, the right to choose when and if I have a dozen children, the right to pursue an eduation, the right to not have to be hit on or raped by my husband or spouse, the right to own my own home and other property, the right to have a bank account, a paycheck and a retirement account, the right to make my own decisions and live by and with my own choices, the right to leave a cheating spouse and have a career and financial package that allows me to stand on my own two feet.
Wake up women. The good old days really were not all that great.
By RF
October 8, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this
My boys are doing great! The oldest started middle school this year, so we’re beginning the eye-rolling, life’s so unfair stage. He’s still my buddy, but the hormones are soooo kicking in now. I’ve been teaching like crazy and working on a master’s online, so it’s been a busy, wonderful year! I’ve popped in a few times but didn’t have time to chat. How’s your family? Still dealing with the teenage drama?
By Chilao
October 8, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
I think we really ought to, rather than blaming feminism, blame ole Adolf and the Emperor of Japan, without them we never would have had RosieRiveter, which started all this stuff.
Okay, I thought that made as much sense as blaming feminism for women ALLEDGEDLY being less happy than men.
I ditto the application of Nancy Reagan’s JUST SAY NO to women who feel overextended with the expectations they themselves put on themselves. Relax, there is really nothing that requires the kiddies to have all these special lessons and sport activities, why I have a sister myself who drives all over the southeast taking her kids to soccer tourneys. I would NEVER say anythingain’t my business), but don’t complain about it, if you cannot say NO. Not that she has complained but it DOES affect her financially.
By Nodding in Agreement
October 8, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
Yes, Andrea and the other posters here have it right. Feminism is not the culprit, unless you want to look at modern American MEN who look for a woman who will in fact, do everything and be everything all at once. I feel buried under the pressure to earn the money, support the household, be a mom, take care of everything and everybody, and still manage to keep my figure and a decent sense of style. And yes, I feel inadequate that I haven’t done more to claw my way up the corporate ladder to make more money, and inadequate that I don’t have time to spend shopping for a new husband and cultivating those special relationships, and inadequate that I don’t spend MORE time with the kids…. Blame feminism? No way! But I wouldn’t mind examining the minds and motivations of the MEN out there who seem to think we we should indeed be good at everything all at once. If they don’t feel that way, they sure have ME fooled! (Not that I have the time or energy to care.)
By Chilao
October 8, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this
and I think a lot of those happy(NOT) Leave-it-to-Beaver Moms from the 50s ended up divorced. Maybe then the study would have been something like men not as happy as women, assuming men initiated the divorces. LOL
but on that thought, with all the men killed in WWII, how did most of the women still end up being married? Or were they? Seems the ratio of available men to available women got pretty skewed around then.
By RF
October 8, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
I think we really ought to, rather than blaming feminism, blame ole Adolf and the Emperor of Japan, without them we never would have had RosieRiveter, which started all this stuff
ROFL Yep, that’s it. Case closed!!
Nodding- men look for those things in women because women let them. Take off the apron strings and tell him “you get whatever you feel like cooking for dinner tonight.” I say we take every man who feels that way and leave him at home for two weeks with the chores and kids. He’ll realize in less than 24 hours that it ain’t as easy as it looks. As a single, full-time dad who cooks, cleans, handles home repairs, shops, runs to scouts and little league, AND can even bake a darn-good birthday cake, I can tell you that every man should try it for a while.
By lozen
October 8, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Yes, yes, yes. Women like Shaunti amaze me. No appreciation at all. I’m sure Shaunti doesn’t feel it’s important for women to be able to vote! To have their own credit in their own name. To have BC and family planning ability. To be able to get into law school or medical school is certainly not important for women. All we women need is a man and some kiddies and we “should” be happy. Exactly what we were all told in the 50’s & 60’s. These people never change their tune! Shaunti tells us her mother was a nurse. Well, that’s all women were supposed to do in that generation, become a nurse or a school teacher! There were no other really acceptable careers for most women back then. How about that credit card with your own name on it Shaunti? Remember women didn’t have that in the 60’s even. Your husband’s credit record was your credit record and the credit card you might use had his name on it! If it weren’t for the first wave of feminism your husband could beat you up and there would be nothing you could do about it Shaunti. You’d really like to go back to them good old days, would you? Your only choices would be marry or live out your days as a spinster being taken care of by some relative who resented you. That would be heavenly, right? You couldn’t own your own property; when your parents died and left you property it would immediately be your husbands property and he could do whatever he wanted with it. Sounds just lovely. Feminism has become a scapegoat for the far right. Feminists eat babies ya know. Feminists cut off men’s ba—s ya know! Feminists have caused everybody to be so unhappy ya know. A few years ago it was men who were so unhappy due to feminism. Now it’s women! It is a steaming pile fer shur. I am so thankful for feminism. Thank you feminists for all the choices I have in my life. Thank you for fighting so that all women have the possibility to become whole people. I appreciate you and what you did for me every day of my life. Blessed be all women who cared and fought for me.
By Archie
October 8, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
Full day of work, plus making dinner, plus cleaning up, plus laundry, household chores, etc. We’re expected to excel at work while still pulling a Martha at home.
You should preface your remarks by saying some women because a lot of women don’t do housework, they simply don’t. I have no idea why there is a happiness gap but I don’t blame feminism and I think the last paragraph of Andrea’s makes some sense to me as far as lowering standards and knowing what you like doing,period. For example some men know they have to cook and clean after work but if some men can spend time with their children,play some golf, watch a ballgame or do some other activity they like then those men are happy. It seems as if men are more accepting of some things and definitive about what makes them happy but women are different and really I don’t know what’s the point of the study. Anyway take Andrea’s advice if you like or take Shanti’s advice, whatever makes you happy.
By lozen
October 8, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
I agree 100 percent with RF, every married woman should take a two-week vacation alone and leave the kids and the house and the laundry and the shopping and the chauffeuring, and the homework, and the cooking and cleaning and ironing to the man of the house. Unfortunately those ideas that the woman should be the one responsible for the house and the kids were passed down to us by our mothers. So the times have changed and we have jobs now but we still inherited our mothers’ legacy. And unfortunately many men got the idea passed down from their parents that it’s the women’s job. So some of the women I know have two choices: fight all the time, day after day trying to get him to take some responsibility for those things or do it to keep the peace. It ain’t easy to live with someone you’re fighting with every day!
By Jack
October 8, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this
For Lozen:
Son asked his mother the following question:
"Mom, why are wedding dresses white?" The mother looks at her son and replies, "Son, this shows your friends and relatives that your bride is pure." The son thanks his Mom and goes off to double-check this with his father. "Dad why are wedding dresses white?" The father looks at his son in surprise and says, "Son, all household appliances come in white."By lozen
October 8, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this
Jack, get back under the bridge! Humor really comes in handy sometimes. Cute joke!
By Jack
October 8, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this
He was a brave man indeed. (that’s what it said on his tombstone) LOL
By Chilao
October 8, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this
Coming from a large family where boys and girls were taught work, both household and yard/garden, gender irrelevant, I never could understand guys being incompetent doing household chores. Yes, I KNOW they are out there.
it is not Friday, but that joke was hilarious, Jack. LOL
By RF
October 8, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this
Chilao- I know how you feel. By the time I was a teen, I could cook a meal, clean it up, buy the groceries for the next meal, and do my own laundry. I was the child of working parents who both had to work, feminism or not. Necessity made feminists of a lot of women in the 70’s and 80’s. I cannot understand how parents can raise kids who don’t participate in the family chores.
By Chilao
October 8, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
Hi RF, nice to see you back, if temporarily.
Yeah, when I was 10-11 I was hauling two dollyloads of laundry, say 3-4 baskets each load, two blocks away to the laundry mat and doing the wash. Since we moved so much, my parents never had a washer/dryer until I was about 15. By that time I could cook meals and am still great with a kitchen knife. veggies..LOL
By Jack
October 8, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this
Hey Chilao, was that up hill, both ways? LOL
By Chilao
October 8, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
Hey Chilao, was that up hill, both ways? LOL*
yep! (actually I have heard that about walking to school in the snow, “uphill, both ways” but it was actually flat-land.) too funny.
don’t know what it was about the knife, I was just describing, prior to writing that, the Radiohead/subway-car scene in THE BRAVE ONE. LOL and I actually BAKE from time to time.
By RF
October 8, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this
Chilao- we was rich compared to you. Dad made sure we had a washer and dryer- they were never new, mind you, but he could always manage to keep them working. It’s interesting to me that most people who describe themselves as “unhappy” never had to work very hard growing up. I bet most people would gain a better perspective of life if they had to haul the laundry dolly uphill both ways!! ;-)
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By Reason
October 9, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this
The only thing out-dated is your idea that women do all the work. Look around. I have male friends who allow their wives to relax while they do things like sew drapes, cook birthday cakes, and yes, do the laundry. The people saying women do all the work are the one with the archaic mind-sets.
By Mara
October 9, 2007 8:42 AM | Link to this
hi y’all.
I’ve got something on my mind today. We had CNN on last night while my honey and I made dinner. I just happened to be paying attention during a back and forth between Cafferty and some young female newsreporter and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I couldn’t find the transcript on CNN.com but to paraphrase…
Newswoman: So, Jack, when you have a craving for sugar what do you grab…cookie, candybar? What do you grab for?
Cafferty: You, Lisa…you. That’s all I need… (the reporters name is made up because I can’t remember her real one)
[strained silence]
Newswoman: (wretching sound) I think I might have thrown up a little.
Now, this happened ON AIR!!! I was shocked and dismayed at such sexist and unprofessional behavior, but not surprised. The woman was obviously uncomfortable, and Cafferty didn’t even seem to realize that he was being inappropriate! I kept wondering about it all night. Did he not see how embarrassed and uncomfortable the woman looked? Could Cafferty, or any man for that matter, REALLY believe that this kind of stuff is “cute” and harmless between co-workers?!
anyway…that was what was on my mind this morning.
By Anonymous
October 9, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this
The only thing feminism “insisted” on was that women think for themselves. And conservatives have never forgiven them for it.
By lozen
October 9, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this
Gosh Reason, I find that a little hard to believe. (Just call me sceptical). I have male friends who allow their wives to relax while they do things like sew drapes, cook birthday cakes, and yes, do the laundry. The people saying women do all the work are the one with the archaic mind-sets. A big bunch of your friends make drapes? I’ve never, in over 50 years associating with all types of people, living in different parts of this country and others, met a straight man who makes drapes or birthday cakes, or does all the housework. Are you sure your friends are straight?
By lozen
October 9, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this
Mara, it’s amazing isn’t it? There are many men out there who think they’re cute when they do things like that. Listen to the guy on the Clark station in the morning if you want to hear a whole bunch of it. I used to listen to it because they play nice jazz, but I couldn’t take the neanderthal. The news woman and traffic reporter just handle it as best they can. And they want to get Imus back on the air! It’s amazing how dense some people can be. The more I think about this week’s question the more stupid I think it is. How could anyone really believe feminism has anything to do with women’s unhappiness? So many women are overwhelmed with full time jobs and household and childcare, so many women are assaulted by husbands and boyfriends every day, so many men rape women every day, so many men stalk women and murder women and children every day. And somebody asks if feminism caused the “unhappiness gap”! How incredibly condescending and stupid.
By Feminist
October 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
How on the green earth did this subject morph into who cleans the dishes? Pitiful of both women and men that your idea of feminism has degraded into housework.
Feminism is about choice and rights. The right to vote, the right to own property, the right not to be valued as property under the law.
Shame on all of you. Do you not realize that women sat in prisons for trying to vote? During their sentences, they were raped repeatedly, beaten, spit on, vomited on, defecated on and other forms of abuse that we can not imagine. All for trying to vote. This is what feminist women did for all women, including ignorant pugs like Shaunti Feldhahn.
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
Hey kids! I hope everyone had a nice, long weekend or for our educator friends are enjoying a well-deserved week off…Hey RF!! So nice to ‘see’ you again! I miss your wit and insight, my web friend.
And so nice to see you popping in the past 2 weeks, JBM. I hope all is well with you, your business, partner, and daughter.
There are some very valid points being made by lots of folks. I do think that Billy is on to something when he mentions the consumerism of today. There is a study by I can’t recall who (darn, CRAFT’s disease again) that indicates that all Americans in general are less happy than they have been in the past. In this study they link the decline in happiness to the rise in TV and consumerism. Before we had “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous”, “MTV Cribs”, “I Want That”, etc. people were pretty much unaware of all the stuff out there that they didn’t own and therefore didn’t desire…and in most cases still don’t need. As we’ve become bombarded with images of all this stuff presented in a way that makes it seem like just everyone wants one or has one we too start to think that our life will be better or we’ll be happier if only we, too, had a {FILL IN BLANK}. Just look at kitchen designs today! How many people really need a double oven? Or a warming drawer? Or a professional-line stove? This example is especially illuminating to me in that people are spending ever more on kitchens that a professional chef would envy even as we prepare fewer meals at home! I really think that it feeds into that Superwoman syndrome (which would be better called “I just don’t know how to say No” syndrome) by enabling the false thought process that if one only has a fabulous kitchen in which the most complex meal can be created with ease that one will actually do so and therefore achieve (if only for the 20 minutes it takes to consume the meal that took 2 hours to prepare and clean up) perfect homemaker status.
I think that the “Just say NO” thoughts are also on target. I, too, have the problem of saying Yes to too many requests and putting others’ needs before my own. I’m working on this and thankfully have a partner who reminds me far too frequently that “You don’t have to do everything yourself.” Much like an addict is always in recovery this will be my lifelong struggle…being a control-freak perfectionist serves one well only to a point. It’s finding that point and balance as well as learning to not feel guilty by putting yourself first or indulging yourself everyso often.
As a single, full-time dad… And lastly to let someone else get in a word edgewise from my rambling…God bless all single parents out there!! I don’t know how you do it! My partner was on vacation for a week with his brother and told me that I looked exhausted when he got home. Well of course I was exhausted because I was working, taking care of the house, dealing with the high-energy dog every day, getting the car repaired, dog to vet for updated shots, paying the bills, doing the shopping, picking up the dry cleaning, filing the health insurance claims, keeping in touch with friends, getting everything together for the visit with my parents 2 days after he got back, etc., etc. etc. For goodness sake I only have a 2 year old dog and not a human child that needs nightly bath time, help with homework, lunches packed, a story read before bed, surprise projects due tomorrow, sports practices, and so on. Sheesh! I’m tired just thinking about all that activity…I’m going to go take a nap now.
By Lyrazel
October 9, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this
I was reading a book review of Charles Schultz and his children were annoyed because the author showed him to be depressed and moody but they remembered a happy, bright and fun dad. It was his wife who said: happiness is boring to write about.
Happy people seldom take surveys to evaluate how miserable they are—thus the upset and depressed are always over represented.
Both pundits are lost in the delusion that happiness is: achieved.
By RF
October 9, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this
Sheesh! I’m tired just thinking about all that activity…I’m going to go take a nap now
Which is exactly what I’ve done for about three days now!!
You hit the nail squarely on the head, Net, with the control freak comment. Far too many women (and many men in a position like mine) feel like they have to do everything themselves and forget to dole out the duties. I’m bad about thinking I have to do it all so I know it’s done right. I’m learning that with my two angels. They are old enough now to help with chores, cooking, cleaning. What’s hard is reminding myself to take a step back and let them do some things, even if they aren’t perfect. I’ve learned to completely overlook the messily made beds or clothes all around and not IN the hamper. A few lego blocks on the coffee table is NOT something to deal with right away. It takes time to let go of that control, which is probably why more women seem unhappy and why there are still some men who get to sit in the recliner while she vacuums up the chip crumbs around him.
Good to see you too, Net. I miss the camaraderie of my blog friends and even the sniping sometimes!! I read your comments a few weeks back about Madeline L’engle. I LOVED her work and just re-read a little known but awesome work of hers,The Other Side of the Sun (not science fiction at all).
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this
Very interesting piece from Monday’s paper.
“Here come the babies —- in all the wrong places”
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/printedition/2007/10/08/babiesed1008.html
By Archie
October 9, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
The only thing out-dated is your idea that women do all the work. Look around. I have male friends who allow their wives to relax while they do things like sew drapes, cook birthday cakes, and yes, do the laundry. The people saying women do all the work are the one with the archaic mind-sets.
I do agree with those statements. Some women think they are in the same category as an USinUk but they’re not and they give themselves too much credit. The ladies here at work have given me numerous examples of women that don’t do much but the topic is about happiness and basically I think you have to find out what makes you happy and go for it within reason.
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this
What’s hard is reminding myself to take a step back and let them do some things, even if they aren’t perfect. This is my big challenge especially when it comes to food and I’m trying to get better. Since I tend to be the one who ‘rules’ the kitchen giving up control of menu planning when entertaining or bringing something to an event is very difficult for me.
I’ve learned to completely overlook the messily made beds or clothes all around and not IN the hamper. I’ll pass along a tip from my mother on the clothes hamper. If the clothes aren’t IN the hamper they don’t get washed. A few times without the favorite jeans or shirt and the lesson is soon learned. It worked on me and it worked on my partner. Granted it took longer on a adult, but it eventually worked especially when I pointed out that I didn’t know which of the clothes tossed about the bedroom were actually dirty vs those that had been tried on, but not worn or worn briefly and not in need of laundering and under NO circumstances was I going to start sniffing all those clothes to try to categorize them.
I haven’t heard of that book by Madeline. How heavy is the reading? I need to start planning ahead for my week off after Thanksgiving with the in-laws vacation reading. Right now I’m leaning toward the last Harry Potter, but I get soooo sucked into those that I don’t want to ignore the family.
By Cro-mag
October 9, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this
Keep ‘em barefoot and pregnant I say! Funny how the more that females get out into the workplace, the less happy they are. I think giving them the right to vote was a big mistake myself.
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this
Far too many women (and many men in a position like mine) feel like they have to do everything themselves and forget to dole out the duties. One more thought popped into my head from this statement…Super Nanny and Nanny 911. It amazes me how many households with the control freak, do EVERYTHING mom or dad that have seemingly out of control children. Turns out that by doing everything for the kids the parent(s) are really ignoring the emotional needs of their children as well as the kids desire to be a helpful,productive member of the family. Once the parents started getting the kids involved in a few chores (even as simple as putting away toys) it was amazing the difference. Parent was less stressed and spending more time with the kids while the children were happy to be helpful and have the time/attention of the parent.
By lozen
October 9, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
Ah yes Net, we must make more babies who grow up to be consumers!
Here’s another theory about why women and men in the U.S. are unhappy:
Rabbi Michael Lerner offers an explanation for the appeal of dispensationalism, the religious view held by many Christian Zionists, that the second coming of Jesus is incumbent upon the Jews being in Israel.
“Dispensationalists are onto something. They are onto the growing depression that people are feeling, a deep emotional depression in the United States. A lack of any hopeful picture of what the world could be. It’s a failure of the mainstream political framework in this country to address the major questions facing the world in the 21st century.”
By RF
October 9, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
Net- I LOVE to watch Nanny 911, etc. I’m always amazed at how two parents can’t figure out how to make the family thing work. I’ve picked up a few pointers! When the kids are little, you get into the habit of doing it all and it’s hard to know when to begin including them. I’ve found that mine love to be in the kitchen with me “helping” cook, and it really does create some family time that many people overlook. We also sit down together at the table for supper, which I’ve found most of my neighbors don’t do anymore. I’m shocked by how many families simply don’t share meals together and miss out on so many wonderful conversations.
Actually, this thread ties into the discussion on happiness. My boys are so much happier, less aggressive, and generally more well-adjusted than many kids we know with two biological parent units in the house because we make family time happen. I’ve found I’m much happier, even with the hectic nature of life, because my boys and I do things together. It’s amazing how an ice cream cone and a front porch swing make you stop and appreciate the simplest things, especially the beauty and wonder of your children. It’s something you don’t really see from the rear view mirror! And of course, I have all the excuses in the world for being a big ‘ol kid and playing with Lego’s and Hot Wheels!!
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
Hi Lozen! I read another very interesting short piece about babies and family planning in the recently arrived issue of National Geographic. In 1198 at the directive of Pope Innocent III foundling wheels were installed at Catholic convents and were in use up until approximately the mid-1960’s. The Pope made the decision to provide women a place to anonomously ‘abandon’ their babies because he was horrified by the numerous dead infants found daily floating in the Tigres River.
I’m sure I just opened the ‘abortion’ door, but that’s not my intent nor the focus of the article. I found the historical fact of foundling wheels interesting in relation to discussions on family planning. Too many religious conservatives want to restrict family planning, yet they are blissfully unaware of so many of the consequences of a lack of the ability to plan to have children that have occurred throughout the history of mankind. Granted, it isn’t really taught in history classes that since women couldn’t control when to become pregnant in the past that they would kill infants they were unable or unwilling to raise. Think of the story of Moses. He was an abandoned infant that was found. How many others were released into the very same river that never surived? How many infant deaths in centuries past when infant mortality was far more common were actually murders? This is preferable to birth control?
By Formerly known to have faith
October 9, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this
When the things you spent your live believing in turn out to be a lie, and the ones you trusted turn their backs, and your own best efforts keep you in the race, but falling farther and farther behind, and the people of “faith” who claim to have all the answers are the biggest a—holes, liars, and hypocrites you’ve ever met, it’s hard to have faith in anything anymore, and yes, that can be depressing. Perhaps the real joy comes with giving up.
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
I LOVE to watch Nanny 911, etc. Well of course, you do RF! It lets you know that you and the boys are far less screwed up than you feared. ~giggle~
I have all the excuses in the world for being a big ‘ol kid and playing with Lego’s and Hot Wheels!! Now THAT I can identify with! I really do wish that I lived closer to my nephew so we could spend more time together. I had the best time being a big goofball with him at the pool when we were visiting my Grandmother in Phoenix last month for her 90th birthday. I also love to do stuff like go to the zoo and science museum and corn mazes and hikes in a park and….well all the stuff that is GREAT to do with a kid, but which can start to creep people out when they spot the childless grown up there. Anyone have a kid I can borrow for the odd Saturday every month so I can go do some of the cool kid stuff too?
By Mara
October 9, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this
Net - How many others were released into the very same river that never surived?
That’s none of our business, that’s GODS business. And onsidering how “sacred” life is to god (or so the christianists say), he surely had angels wafting them up through the wispy clouds to live in perpetual happiness among the saints. :^)
By Jack
October 9, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
Hello Sweetness. :)
By Scalia
October 9, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this
Net, I never gave that much thought. And it is sad to say that people don’t realize that that is what happened in the past. Think about the story Beloved. How many slaves probably did the same thing to keep their children from being born into slavery?
By Mara
October 9, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
Jack - Hello Sweetness
(looking around for kimberly)
Moi? Ahem…Well, hello back atcha
By Jack
October 9, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this
You’re sweet too Mara.
By Chilao
October 9, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this
Moi? Ahem…Well, hello back atcha
Sorry, Mara, but that was definitely for Kimberly. LOL She showed up. you can figure it out.
Funny I was reading that NGS article two nights ago, I was surprised the Pope was so upset about it, with him having such a good, sure thing going on and all. Fast-track Babies, if you will.
Sidetracked last night to read/start the highly recommended INTO THE WILD, soon to be a movie, opens October 21. finished 3/4 of it at least.
By Mara
October 9, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this
er, okay. Didn’t see her name on any of the posts so i was understandably confused. Thanks though.
…anyway, hey kimberly (waving)
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this
Mara, you crack me up! And do babies in heaven remain babies? If so, do they retain the intelligence of a baby or do they end up like Stewie…baby size but talking and smoking cigars?
By Happiness 101
October 9, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this
The bottom line is that if you can’t find the answers within, you’ll never find them without.
By Chilao
October 9, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
smoking cigars
They SAY, NO SMOKING IN HEAVEN.
By Happiness 101
October 9, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this
Personally, I’m wondering how some of the kids stuck in the Russian orphanages who receive 1 spoonful of milk per day and a little stale bread might feel about all the poor American, $65 haircut/$35 pedicure, SUV-driving women who just aren’t happy. I’ll ask my friend Denae to take up a collection from the kids when she goes over there next month to address this obvious unfairness in life.
By NetBanker
October 9, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this
hey SAY, NO SMOKING IN HEAVEN. Hmmm…well that’s a quandry…how am I going to toke up in Heaven, Chilao?
Most states pay less in federal taxes than they receive (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/10/09/FederalSpending.html)
“The analysis shows that wealthy states pay more than poor ones, blue states subsidize red states, and states with powerful politicians on key House and Senate committees fare well in federal spending.”
How about discussing how blue states subsidize red states? Liberals are paying to support conservatives? Say it isn’t so!!
By Econ 101
October 9, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this
I’ll say it isn’t so, NetB. “Blue states” and “Red states” merely indicate a predominance of Democrats or Republicans in a given state, and in no way shed light on who is paying the lion’s share of the taxes, even within that given state.
Personally, I think the documented fact that conservatives outgive liberals when it comes to charity speaks volumes.
By Econ 101
October 9, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this
Hey Fkthf—You’re welcome to come join us at any of the various Pagan events around town. Much cooler crowd than you’ll find at any Christian church, I gar-on-tee. We had a great time on Sunday at the Pagan Pride Festival in Decatur. My girlfriend’s favorite band, Emarald Rose, performed. They are a Celtic rock band. They got me laughing with one of their songs, “My Baby Left Me For A Tree-Hugging Man”. Hilarious!
By Econ 101
October 9, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this
Oops, that is Emerald Rose. You can check them out at
www.emeraldrose.com
By Econ 101
October 9, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this
My girlfriend tried to get me to wear one of the traditional Irish “kilts” that the fellas in the band wear, but I said, “Baby, I’ve got to draw the line somewhere!” The only bummer about the Pagan Pride Fest is that it was held on public land, so everyone had to keep their clothes on. Crap!
By Billy
October 10, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this
“Blue states” and “Red states” merely indicate a predominance of Democrats or Republicans in a given state, and in no way shed light on who is paying the lion’s share of the taxes, even within that given state.
But that’s not the point being made. The point is that he red states, who tend to be represented by the supposedly “Lower spending” crowd, the “Stop the government dole” crowd, the “Government is bad crowd”, are more on the government dole.
By lovelyliz
October 10, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this
Can anyone explain how feminism is responsible for my sister’s husband (now an ex) cheating on her?
If she can blame something other than him and the other women, she just might feel better.
Isn’t that the arguement?
By Jack
October 10, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this
If you don’t do your “homework”, someone else will. That goes for male & female.
By RF
October 10, 2007 9:33 AM | Link to this
liz- everyone wants something or someone to blame. I’m sure if you asked the cheating ex, he’d blame someone else for his choices. We have a problem in this country with finger pointing and wanting to find excuses for what are just stupid choices we make. Many people just don’t know how good they have it and always want more. Sad how they often trample on those who love them to get what they think they want.
Did anyone read the story about the child (14) locked on the apartment balcony for most of the weekend—for punishment? How much you want to bet the dad gets the child back with a little probation and/or parenting classes?
By lozen
October 10, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this
Good morning, RF, Jack, lovelyliz, Billy. Jack, I know that’s the truth! Chilao, I was reading that NGS article… Where can I find that?
By Chilao
October 10, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
Lozen - I have a subscription, it arrives in the mail(duh..LOL) but I have seen issues in the libraries, not necessarily all libraries, and I am not often in the periodical section anyway, but SOME libraries do carry NGS.
By Mara
October 10, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this
RF - Did anyone read the story about the child (14) locked on the apartment balcony for most of the weekend—for punishment?
I read about that. Though I’m prepared for being called some names, I have to admit that I’m a bit curious on why you are so outraged. It’s not as if it’s freezing and the child had no shelter. In fact the girl wasn’t actually “trapped” on the balcony. There was an escape ladder there with her, and neighbors all around. At one point she even climbed down, got an extra key, entered the apartment and used the bathroom. She then voluntarily locked herself back onto the balcony. She wasn’t harmed, not even psychologically. She was not in any danger at any time and she was pretty much free to come or go as she pleased.
The only issue I can see is the father leaving her unsupervised for such an extended period. (Though she is 14 and should be able to stay by herself for hours at a time…)
so what exactly is the problem with this kind of “time out”?
By Roxie
October 10, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this
THERE IS NO “HAPPINESS GAP” LADIES!* [OK, everybody, take a deep breath and listen: THERE IS NO HAPPINESS GAP!
Every year since 1972, the General Social Survey has been asking a big demographically-balanced sample of American men and women “Taken all together, how would you say things are these days? Are you a) very happy, b) pretty happy, c) not too happy.”
Neither in 1972 nor in 2006 was there any statistically significant difference between men and women in the distribution of their responses! And in both 1972 and 2006, the proportion of women who said “very happy” was a little bit higher than the proportion of men who gave that response (though again, in neither year was the difference distinguishable from chance fluctuations).
So what is everyone talking about? Well, some economists fit a complicated statistical model (called an “ordered probit”) to the whole sequence of survey results from 1972 to 2006, and this analysis suggests that women have become a little tiny bit less happy relative to men over that whole time period. But the effect is so small that you can’t actually see it in the statistical analysis for any one year; the effect is much smaller than the amount of year-to-year jiggle. That’s true even through the General Social Survey involves a huge sample, much bigger than is normally used for opinion polls: 4,500 people in 2006.](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004969.html)
By NetBanker
October 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
Good moooorning, kids!!
Many people just don’t know how good they have it and always want more. Sad how they often trample on those who love them to get what they think they want. That is a good point, RF and I think it also points to the unhappiness factor in the topic. IMO, our entertainment media culture plays up the situation with the majority of focus on the chase and getting the guy/girl while portraying long-term marriages/relationships in a somewhat pejorative light. Think of the not-necessarily-so-nice banter between the married couples on Everybody Loves Raymond or Archie Bunker or The Jeffersons or Married With Children or King of Queens or That 70’s Show, etc. Yes there is some truth in those situations which is what adds to the comedy and there is some touching on the devotion that the couples have to each other, but there is more focus on the bad than the good.
I know “the grass is greener on the other side of the fence,” but before you go fence climbing take a closer look for the weeds in that field and to gauge how much ‘fertlizer’ is being used.
Lozen…I’m trying to find that article on the National Geographic web site and can’t locate it. I read it in the magazine and have managed to find all the stories surrounding it, but not that one! OIY!!
By Chilao
October 10, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this
here it is, but not at NGS, I have their news site in my faves but generally don’t like their magazine web site; I searched on “foundling 1198 pope NGS” in google and found this: which was it, it was a pic with some text, not a full article. the foundling looks like a barrel bbq. LOL
http://twistedvalley.blogspot.com/2007/09/nunbox.html
By Chilao
October 10, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this
the NGS text is only down to the picture of the gate and foundling, with the two nuns in white in the background; beyond that is commentary of the site owner.
By Chilao
October 10, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this
I did that google search after exhausting attempts to find it a NGS; the only thing that came up in a ‘foundling’ search at the NGS website was a pic from Havana in the 1920s.
They(NGS) I think tend to be slow in posting current month, defeats the subscription concept for print. But the main articles were there for this month(OCT), minus most of the pics. There were a few real good ones, viruses crossing species via bats often and the Malaccan Straits pirates were especially good. Actually the virus one was more about host species that were unaffected by the virus. But caused big problems when the species jumped to another species.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this
Billy—NetB questioned whether “Liberals are paying to support conservatives?”. For this to be true, that would mean that within each state, whether “red” or “blue”, the individual taxpayers who identify themselves as voting Democrat are actually paying more taxes as an aggregate group than their Republican counterparts. Stating that there is a net flow of federal dollars from states with a preponderance of Democrats to those with a preponderance of Republicans sheds no light at all as to who is actually paying the bulk of taxes within that state. If you look at California, for example, there are certainly more Democrats, but the bulk of taxes paid come from the Republican voters.
In other words, Bill Gates could, theoretically, be the only registered Republican in the state of Washington, making it a “blue” state, yet pay more taxes as an individual than all of the other millions of registered Democrats combined. In such a scenario, it isn’t accurate to claim that the “liberals” of the state of Washington are supporting anyone, when in fact the money came from the only registered Republican.
By Just Being Me
October 10, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this
My boys are doing great! The oldest started middle school this year, so we’re beginning the eye-rolling, life’s so unfair stage. He’s still my buddy, but the hormones are soooo kicking in now. I’ve been teaching like crazy and working on a master’s online, so it’s been a busy, wonderful year! I’ve popped in a few times but didn’t have time to chat. How’s your family? Still dealing with the teenage drama?
Am I ever!!! The “teenager” is now in NC with my family, expecting her first out-of-wedlock child. Sad to say, she hasn’t been to school in a year and a half.
I remember those eye-rolling years… LOL. A colleague and I were just talking about how much easier it is to raise boys than girls, and that’s a prime example. I WISH all mine did was roll her eyes! LOL!!!
I’ve been thinking (a lot) about going for my master’s online as well. I need to just get up off my lazy behind and do it.
Mara I agree with your thoughts on the 14 yo. I’ve been known to use some “extreme” forms of punishment on my daughter as well, as long as there was no psychological or physical damage done, I don’t see the big deal either.
NetB Hey there darlin! Good to see ya!
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this
But it’s ok, Billy, I forgive you for not understanding the point. I know your Maker didn’t bless you with much grey matter to be able to puzzle through things like that.
On the other hand, I’m not going to cut kimberly any breaks in her search for the truth, because I know in my heart she is smart enough to figure things out. Why she wasted so many years listening to those blowhards who run the churches, I’ll never know. Ditto for her friends who think the answers to life can be found in boring Russian novels.
So, please, kimberly, hate me all you want, sue me, or whatever, but don’t give up on the truth. You’re a lot smarter than you give yourself credit for.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this
Also, Billy (and NetB), you have to consider that the present roll of “red” states includes the all the southern “Dixiecrat” states who only recently became predominately Republican. If you subtracted those states from the equation, I’m not so sure there would still be a net flow of dollars from blue to red. In the final analysis, the “net flow of federal dollars” depends on both the tax collections and tax expenditures. The fact that the states with Republican representation are more successful in bringing home the bacon to their districts is what likely tips the equation, not the lack of tax collection in those states.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this
And speaking of intellectual lightweights, it’s a shame that our resident pseudo-Scientist, Brian Curtis, isn’t around anymore. I wanted to share with him the latest prounouncements from Robert Hazen, who is widely considered to be one of the foremost experts in the world on Evolution and the Origins of Life. After spending more than ten years heading up a NASA study into the origins of life, to the tune of hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars, Mr. Hazen has concluded that our present understanding of Science is inadequate to explain life. Specifically, he now recognizes that the vaunted Second Law of Thermodynamics has to be violated for life to occur.
Of course, it’s all couched in a bunch of Scientific mumbo-jumbo about “emergent properties of matter” and the like. If any of you have had the intelligence and education to understand my arguments on the blog here, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying all along, but using words that people understand, like “divine”.
By BillGates
October 10, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this
Of course all of my lower-paid-wage-slave employees would be Democrats.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this
Gotta run, but if any of you are interested in how your tax dollars are being wasted in the name of truthseeking, please research Robert Hazen, the NASA Astrobiology Institute, and especially ISSOL—the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life. While most scientific societies are open to membership to any qualified individual, to become a member of ISSOL, you have to receive the endorsement of two current members, thereby ensuring that the status quo will be kept. Sounds an awful lot like the Council of Nicea all over again to me.
By Huh?
October 10, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this
Didn’t esteemed scholarly scientists of the day once think the world was flat?
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
In case anyone is interested in using the Bible to shed some light on the truth, I suggest looking into the Book of Job and the book of Ecclesiastes. I know a big shiver went down my spine upon reading the “words of God” as spoken to The Evil One: “Have you considered my servant, Job?” Pretty chilling, if you think about it.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
Huh—The idea of a “flat earth” was never widely acepted, not even in Biblical times. I can’t recall the exact passage, but I know that the Earth is described in the Bible as being a “sphere which is suspended in space with no supports holding it up”. I beleive lozen tried to accuse the Biblical writers of not recognizing that the earth is a sphere, but she was wrong, as usual.
By Mara
October 10, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this
Bill Gates is a registered Republican?! Considering his campaign contributions, that’s surprising!
2500 to Obama for Pres 1000 to the Blue Dog PAC etc.
http://www.campaignmoney.com/biography/bill_gates.asp
Hey Net - regarding the nature of babies-in-heaven…you thought Stewie and I though Baby Herman (from Roger Rabbit) LOL!
JBM - glad you’re hangin’ out for a bit. We miss you :^(
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
I will tell you what is crazy, however: Scientists like to mock religious people for their belief that God breathed the Breath of Life into inanimate matter, thereby creating life. In “scientific” terms, this is known as “spontaneous generation”. If you do some research into the Origins of Life research going on, they are saying the same exact thing now, but using the phrase “emergent properties of matter” in place of a Divine expanation. I really wouldn’t care about their pomposity and ignorance if they weren’t fleecing the public to the tune of *billions of dollars in tax money each year.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this
Mara, I said “theoretically”.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this
Mara—you may be pleased to know that your vision of numerous universes, i.e. a “multiverse”, is an idea which many respected Scientists believe in. I say “believe”, because no one has any idea of the size or scope of the single universe we are inhabitants of. In fact, it is now accepted that we can only view a small portion of the Universe using our current technologies. the biggest surprise coming from deep space exploration via the Hubble telescope is just how darn many stars there are out there. Based on the idea of either a Big Bang or even an “expanding Universe”, it would be expected that the density of start would fall off as we approached the “edge” of the Unoverse. The dummies never considered a system which contained no “edges’.
I won’t bore you with the details of how a three dimensional gemetric system can fold back upon itself, but the answer lies in the “fourth” dimension—i.e. a dimension which we three dimensional creatures can’t access directly.
By Truthseeker
October 10, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this
The more I think about it, considering his grandiose sense of entitlement, I guess it would make sense that Bill Gates is a Democrat. Thanks for the correction. In case any of you haven’t read about his life story, Bill invented almost nothing himself. His claim to fame was in duping his friend into selling him the DOS program for $50,000 which he parlayed into billions by reselling later to all the “knock-off” computer companies like Dell who were able to steal the non-proprietary computer design that IBM came up with in 1979.
By Obviously
October 10, 2007 2:40 PM |