Woman to Woman

By chuck

August 19, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this

Well Andrea picks up where Diane left off. I loved this:

What all these issues have in common is that they affect women first, not only, but first, and that issues like these languished in the purgatory of “We’ll get to that, Little Lady” until women educated each other and made themselves heard.

She has to go back to the 1920’s to women’s suffrage? The fact is, there are very few men who think the way she PERCEIVES them to think. Most men that I come in contact with (conservatives) are all over these issues. We are all in favor of equal pay and going after rapists. It seems that you are still living in the 1950’s. Most of us have moved forward.

I think maybe you should lead the fight for those right for women in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan where they don’t exist. The issues mentioned by Shaunti have a much bigger impact on women and men alike and the lives and health of their families.

As for abortion, I would say it is fairly obvious that it affects unborn babies FIRST and not women.

By USinUK

August 20, 2007 4:33 AM | Link to this

Okay, Chuckles, you want some contemporary issues that women fought for: - requirement for insurance companies to cover birth control - Family Medical Leave Act - requirement that hospitals NOT kick new mothers to the curb within 24 hours of giving birth - requirement that mastectomies NOT be treated as outpatient surgery - mammogram coverage - hostile workplace laws

… and those are just a few off the top of my head from within the last decade.

As for Andrea’s decision to go to a male OB/GYN - well, I’d never go to a mechanic that doesn’t own a car.

By Anonymous

August 20, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

Andrea’s pointing out a fairly obvious fact, without resorting to absolutes: A woman is more likely to understand and be motivated to address issues that primarily affect women.

Is she saying “no man can be trusted”? Of course not. Is she saying “A female candidate is automatically a better choice”? Again, no. She’s pointing out that personal experience is often relevant in choosing a candidate. And she’s acknowledging that there are always exceptions. A sure sign that Andrea has a working brain, unlike many of those who will disagree with her this week.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

Only a woman can understand another woman’s pain. Men can empahtize naturally but they truly can’t understand. Case in point Sandra Day O’Connor; the Supreme Court had Equal Rights in its sites a few years back, and were split down the middle on continuing or abandoning the practice. Justice O’Connor was the deciding vote. Asked why she voted to continue EO — she responded that she still rememberd her days before EO when she, the valedictorian of her law class, couldn’t get a job as a lawyer, the closest job that she could get that pertained to law was as a Legal Secretary. Could any man out there relate to that?

What about Viagara? Why is viagara covered in health insurance plans; but it took over twenty years for birth control to be covered?

Why are there more studies done on men’s health issues than there are on women’s?

On a more “down to earth” note; when my sister was pregnant with her second child, she asked her OBGYN to give her a C-Section when the time came; because she couldn’t endure the pain of another 25+ hours of labor. Her OBGYN said, no, he wouldn’t do it — he told her that he didn’t believe in C-Sections done arbitarily. He told her that she could go through labor again and not to be a “whiner”, (this from a man who couldn’t endure twenty minutes of labor not alone 25 plus hours). My sister said thank you very much, looked into the yellow pages, and found herself a female OBGYN; who told her she understood, no problem.

Men just don’t understand about women’s issues because it’s not a priority in their lives. Period.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

As for abortion, I would say it is fairly obvious that it affects unborn babies FIRST and not women

Typical.

By Nidder

August 20, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

Really, Shaunti? You’re going to use Elizabeth Edwards as your objective backup? I’m sure she could defend how NO ONE is as trustworthy as her husband on the issues, be they older, younger, male, female, shorter, taller, hairier, balder. If John Edwards had a twin brother who was running against him, Elizabeth Edwards would be saying she couldn’t trust anyone who didn’t have ten more seconds of life experience.

And as for telling women that using the phrase “women’s issues” goes against the concept of equal rights, that is a hamhanded way of trying to coopt liberal buzzwords in an attempt to preserve the status quo. Next you’ll be telling women to give up the cause of equal pay, because it’s nothing but a variation on affirmative action, and an insult to anyone who wants to be truly rewarded for their own abilities.

By Anonymous

August 20, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

I see the spam problem continues here. Sigh.

By JAMES

August 20, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

viagara and birth control are two totally different animals. viagra actually helps a medical condition. birth control doesn’t. now, are condoms available through my health insurance?

and to say that a man can never understand a woman’s pain is absolutly ignorant.

By James is your new advocate

August 20, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

That’s right, James! The bruised ego you suffer when your wittle bo-bo goes all sad is TOTALLY deserving of an insurance company check, no matter what it costs! Meanwhile, a woman’s attempt to responsibly plan her maternity leave and the addition of dependent children into her family — with the additional side effect of being less expensive to insurance companies (those who pay the premiums) than complications of pregnancy — should NOT be addressed with an affordable preventive action. We womenfolk need to accept our lower ranking in the relative scheme of what’s important. LONG LIVE THE MIGHTY BO-BO! Now one of you bizzatches, go fix James a sandwich!

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 20, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

It is time for a woman president. Or a black! Hillary Diane would go for measures for all.She knows men’s and women’s issues.They overlap, for sure. Your for a liberal South!

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

James - when men start doing the complete duties of a wife/mother/working mother; instead of whining about taking the trash out once a week; I will consider that they are evolving. Until then; take the trash out and shaddup already!!

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

And another thing….

viagara and birth control are two totally different animals. viagra actually helps a medical condition. birth control doesn’t.

Helloooooo!!! Isn’t pregnancy a medical condition? And a more serious one than impotence. Women can still die from labor; how many men have died because they can’t get it up?

By chuck

August 20, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Yes Suzie, it is typical…for someone who thinks with his or her brain as opposed to his or her sex organs.

USinUK or should I say Kimmie? FAMILY medical leave is, under the parameters set out in the articles above, more a men’s issue than a woman’s issue. We already had MATERNITY leave that applied specifically to women. The family leave act (BAD LAW, BTW), extended maternity leave to MEN as well and also included leave for family illness as well as for maternity.

As for forcing insurance companies to do ANYTHING, well that doesn’t have anything to do with men’s issues or women’s issues, it has to to with government intrusion into PRIVATE business. Something that a liberal should be against…you know, the government intrusion thing.

By chuck

August 20, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

So Susie, since you are in favor of the government having a role in PREVENTING pregnancy, do you also believe that the government should have a role in sterilizing men and women who act irresponsibly when it comes to procreation?

By chuck

August 20, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

BTW Kimmie. What are you doing in England (or Scotland, Ireland , Wales)?

By kimberly

August 20, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Wow, Chuckie. You’ve obviously missed me a lot! I had no idea your feelings were so strong. The post/alias to which you refer was not mine. I actually addressed someone else today, having grown bored over time with your predictable venom. But thanks for always keeping a good thought for me!

By Chilao

August 20, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

BTW Kimmie. What are you doing in England (or Scotland, Ireland , Wales)

You sure she didn’t go down to the Falkland Islands for one of those working eco-vacations? I think all the sheep need to be sheared right about now. Okay, don’t hold me to perfect knowledge of Falkland Island sheep husbandry schedule. I think it is still kinda winter down thataway. Chuck’s school must be back in session.

Okay, on topic: I think I have to ditto Susie’s Men just don’t understand about women’s issues because it’s not a priority in their lives. Period. Thank you, Susie.

San Fran State, huh? I spent three semesters there. Welcome, Andrea. so is it Ann-DREE-ah or Ahn-DRAY-a? LOL

By cassienova

August 20, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Welcome Andrea! So great to see a smart woman tackling these issues with a sense of humor (not to mention a sense of history). As for chuck, I WISH we had to go back to the ’50s to remember what not having equal pay was like. unfortunately, it’s still 77 cents to the dollar (right here in the freedom-lovin’ usa).

By W2W fan

August 20, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

I vote for kimberly to be Diane’s replacement.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

The family leave act (BAD LAW, BTW), extended maternity leave to MEN as well and also included leave for family illness as well as for maternity.

It’s a law to further extend the relationship of the FAMILY — how is that a bad law? If you’ve ever had a terminally sick partner or child or parent, you would understand the need for the law. Only an unfeeling person who has never been touched with a familial crisis would state something like that ^^.

So Susie, since you are in favor of the government having a role in PREVENTING pregnancy, do you also believe that the government should have a role in sterilizing men and women who act irresponsibly when it comes to procreation?

You must be a republican or a nutcase. Only those two groups would associate a query for the reasoning behind viagara being immediately available to men via health insurance versus birth control pills being denied for 20+ years; as a belief in “government having a role in preventing pregnancy”.

I’m sorry, I won’t be falling into a long winded debate with you on this; cause in my experience it doesn’t do to even bother with talking to nutcases. Or republicans.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 20, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

you’re welcome chilao.

By W2W fan

August 20, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

SusieH would be great as well. I wonder how much the position pays?

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August 20, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

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By USinUK

August 21, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

Chuckles … don’t know where you’re getting the “Kimmie” thing … unless you’re confusing me with someone else …

As for forcing insurance companies to do ANYTHING, well that doesn’t have anything to do with men’s issues or women’s issues, it has to to with government intrusion into PRIVATE business. Something that a liberal should be against…you know, the government intrusion thing.

Gosh, I guess you would also be against any government intervention having to do with safety (please see the Triangle Shirtwaist Company … or, more recently, the mine accident in Utah). Sorry, “letting the free market decide” is a lovely idea, but all it results in is a race to the bottom. Government is sometimes needed to ensure fairness and a level playing field.

There’s a WORLD of difference between government intrusion into business and government intrusion into my personal life. Government is required to regulate interstate commerce - see the US Constitution - I, however, am to remain free from Government search and seizure, not to mention quartering troops.

In the case of birth control, it benefits all insurance payers if a woman is allowed to control her fertility - prenatal and ante-natal care, not to mention giving birth, are extremely expensive for insurance companies when you compare it to the expense of monthly birth control pills/an IUD/a diaghram. It’s something that women fought for YEARS for on Cap Hill - but, we got the “We’ll get to that, Little Lady” speech Andrea mentioned.

Then, the FDA approved Viagra and the men in Congress nearly gave themselves whiplash in their haste to require insurance companies to cover it. But, because women were there in Congress to use that as leverage, we finally - FINALLY - got equal treatment.

In the case of FMLA - yes, it benefitted men, as well - but the primary goal of the bill was to expand leave to include caring for parents (usually the woman’s responsibility) as well as adoption, etc - things that were not covered by maternity leave before. And, again, MEN were not leading the charge on this fight - WOMEN were because it was women on the front lines of this kind of care.

And, it’s an excellent law - one that should be expanded!

By B

August 21, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

USinUK—As a man, I agree with you that forcing insurance companies to pay for Viagra prescriptions is ridiculous.

Overall, it’s not as easy to agree with you that women are being treated unfairly by insurance companies or by the health care professions in general, however, when you consider that around 60% of all health care dollars are spent on caring for women.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 21, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

And, it’s an excellent law - one that should be expanded!

Amen to that! If anyone has had the misfortune to have had a sick parent and/or child, spouse; they know how hard it is to work a full time job; take your sick family member to the doctor, labs, cancer treatment, etc.; take care of them full time, THEN take care of everything else, (house, bills, self).

FMLA has helped people stay with jobs that they probably would’ve left, because now, their boss is willing, (under penalty of law), to let them be both a worker and a caregiver. The boss wins by keeping the experienced person on the job and by appearing caring and committed to her other workers. The worker wins because now they don’t have to choose between their career and their familial obligations.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 21, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Overall, it’s not as easy to agree with you that women are being treated unfairly by insurance companies or by the health care professions in general, however, when you consider that around 60% of all health care dollars are spent on caring for women.

That’s because women actually go to the doctor regularly before a molehill becomes a mountain. Men avoid the doctor as if it’ll make them bald or something. Married men, (men badgered by women), have a longer life span because their wives keep up with their healthcare needs/appointments/ etc.

Unless the sign on the doctor’s office says “FREE BEER and NAKED WOMEN”, men won’t go to see a doctor on their own. Hence, the reason why women use more of their healthcare dollars than men.

By B

August 21, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

As for the topic of the week, I say this: It’s impossible for a man to know exactly how a woman feels, thinks, etc. due to all the biological differences. However, I don’t believe that this prevents a man from being an outstanding advocate for women. IMO, all that is really required to be a “woman’s advocate” is a deep love and respect for women.

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August 21, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

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By B

August 21, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

That’s because women actually go to the doctor regularly before a molehill becomes a mountain. Men avoid the doctor as if it’ll make them bald or something. Married men, (men badgered by women), have a longer life span because their wives keep up with their healthcare needs/appointments/ etc.

By your reasoning, Susie, by taking advantage of preventative healthcare, women’s overall health costs should be lower than mens’ overall healthcare costs, right?

Unless the sign on the doctor’s office says “FREE BEER and NAKED WOMEN”, men won’t go to see a doctor on their own. Hence, the reason why women use more of their healthcare dollars than men.

I’m guilty as charged about avoiding MDs, however. I think I’ve seen an MD maybe 4-5 times in my whole life. I’ll admit it—I’m afraid of medical care. I hate needles, and don’t like being under someone else’s control. Fortunately, I’m pretty healthy, at least physically ; > }.

By kimberly

August 21, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

SusieH, great defense of the FMLA, and I wholly agree! I find it interesting that those who argue that protecting workers constitutes excessive government intrustion into private industry are often the same people who support government intrusion into the personal lives of individuals. (USinUK made this distinction this morning.) Because it makes no actual sense to cry “freedom” in the name of corporations, but not individuals [who want different things than they do], I can only conclude that those people are not being honest about their true agenda.

Drifting back to the actual topic: Men who respect and care about women are often terrific advocates, even when they cannot truly relate or empathize with our gender-specific issues. Likewise, there are women who are terrible advocates, choosing instead to be competitive, judgmental, and even derogatory toward their sisters. I think it takes a woman to truly understand what women go through, but CARING is neither a given, nor is it limited to a person’s gender, IMHO.

By USinUK

August 21, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Hi B -

Please cite your 60% figure for healthcare - I’d be interested to see where that came from. I can tell you that, as a woman of childbearing age, my health insurance when I was in the US cost me a good 25% more than my husband’s did - and I’m healthy with no pre-existing conditions, other than having ovaries. So, IF that 60% figure is correct, believe me, B, we’re more than paying for it out of our pockets.

As far as your assertion all that is really required to be a “woman’s advocate” is a deep love and respect for women - that’s a good thing and it definitely helps. But, it comes the old “walk a mile in my shoes” - unless you’ve been sexually harrassed, as an example, you really don’t know what it’s like. As a father/brother/husband, you might feel enraged and protective and helpless - but you really don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in that situation.

And, just to be perfectly clear - there are situations like sexual harrassment/domestic abuse/date rape that would actually BENEFIT from having more men step to the fore and advocate against it.

But, let’s face it - it’s women who have brought these issues to light because it’s not a top-line issue for men.

By B

August 21, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

Question: What is the most pressing “women’s issue” that requires advocacy right now in y’all’s opinions?

From the “outside”, the greatest burden I see women bearing is single motherhood.

By Mara

August 21, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Susie - Unless the sign on the doctor’s office says “FREE BEER and NAKED WOMEN”, men won’t go to see a doctor on their own. Hence, the reason why women use more of their healthcare dollars than men

LOL! Ain’t that the truth! HA!

B - “…it’s not as easy to agree with you that women are being treated unfairly by insurance companies or by the health care professions in general…”

are you kidding?! It is only recently that the medical community has admitted that there’s a difference between the way women and men react to the same treatment. As late as 1993 the NIH had to be directed by Congress to even include women in research trials (NIH Policy and Guidelines on The Inclusion of Women and Minorities as Subjects in Clinical Research) There is a large minority of medical doctors that, in certain situations, do not feel that they are obligated to tell a woman all the medical options available to her nor to refer her to another physician who may suggest treatments they morally disagree with. Never heard of a man having to worry about what his doctors ideology is. There are health care facilities that keep women ignorant of new medicines and procedures that could help the patient but that offend the sensibilities of the health care “professional”. And there are pharmacists who refuse to fill legal perscriptions, not for health reasons, but because they disagree with birth control. (But they WILL sell men all the condems they want)

now, are you sure you don’t want to do more research on gender bias in medicine?

By B

August 21, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

But, it comes the old “walk a mile in my shoes” - unless you’ve been sexually harrassed, as an example, you really don’t know what it’s like. As a father/brother/husband, you might feel enraged and protective and helpless - but you really don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in that situation.

USinUK—I guess the closest I came to being “harassed” was when a gay guy picked me up while I was hitchhiking one time and tried to put some moves on me. I was only about 12, but fortunately had the wherewithal to jump out of the car at the first opportunity before anything serious happened.

It was only a taste of what you ladies go through, but I remember feeling pretty icky about the situation. A few ladies have told stories here on W2W that have broken my heart as well. No one should have their dignity compromised in that way.

By USinUK

August 21, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Hi B -

I guess the closest I came to being “harassed” was when a gay guy picked me up while I was hitchhiking one time and tried to put some moves on me. I was only about 12, but fortunately had the wherewithal to jump out of the car at the first opportunity before anything serious happened.

Now, keeping that feeling in mind … imagine the person putting moves on you is your boss … and you have a family at home to take care of and need the paycheck and, if you’re lucky enough to have it, health care insurance. You not only feel “icky”, you feel trapped, as well.

Fortunately, there is legal recourse - BUT, then, there’s the issues of the time to find a lawyer, the money to fight and the fact that, once you go to court, who will want to hire you afterwards???

Again, I’m not saying men don’t “get it” that harrassment is a problem … but, until women started raising a stink about it, it was winked at with a “boys will be boys” attitude …

By SusieHomeMaker

August 21, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Mara: There are health care facilities that keep women ignorant of new medicines and procedures that could help the patient but that offend the sensibilities of the health care “professional”. And there are pharmacists who refuse to fill legal perscriptions, not for health reasons, but because they disagree with birth control. (But they WILL sell men all the condoms they want)

Amazing isn’t it? And some male practitioners feel that they are responsible for safeguarding women’s reproductive choices. A pharmacists telling a woman “I won’t fill this prescription” is nothing more than control of the womb and dictating how and when the woman’s children will be born.

B: Question: What is the most pressing “women’s issue” that requires advocacy right now in y’all’s opinions?

IMO Equal pay for equal work. In 2007 we shouldn’t still be talking about this; but unfortunately we are.

b: By your reasoning, Susie, by taking advantage of preventative healthcare, women’s overall health costs should be lower than mens’ overall healthcare costs, right?

Women pay more in healthcare services. I did a quick research on the web comparing healthcare prices for a male and female; both born on 10/10/81; both non smokers and both living in the same zip code. For the male the prices broke down like this: BCBS - $91.00 per month; AETNA - $166; United $108.00. For a female it broke down like this: BCBS - $124.00; AETNA - $235.00; United - $141.00. See the difference?

kimberly: Likewise, there are women who are terrible advocates, choosing instead to be competitive, judgmental, and even derogatory toward their sisters.

This is SO TRUE! I recently sat on a jury where a rape case was being tried. The victim was a 25 yo female; who, on the night of the alleged rape, had worn a short clingy skirt, (you know the kind that’s out now), and she also wore a mid driff top. There were two ladies on the jury with me who adamnatly refused to convict this guy of rape because the woman was “asking for it”, whatever that means. The women were so vocal and more angry at the victim, (who was beaten severly), than they were at the alleged pepetrator of the crime; (this guy had been convicted of rape once before). It ended in a hung jury and a mistrial.

By B

August 21, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Susie—I’m sorry to hear of your difficult jury experience, and what sounds like a miscarriage of justice. Of course, can there ever be “justice” following an assault?

By Archie

August 21, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Men just don’t understand about women’s issues because it’s not a priority in their lives. Period.

I disagree with that statement Susie and I do think sometimes, sometimes men are better advocates for women than women. Notice I said sometimes and I said that because women’s evaluation process in personal relationships is kinda off. I recently chastised a 25 year-old woman for calling another woman ho’ without any justification for using that term. I will say there are some things I don’t understand such as the toilet seat issue. Why do you get mad at me for leaving the seat up when you walk in facing the toilet and can just easily push the seat down? If it’s down when I get in there and I want it up I will simply pick it up and won’t be angry with you at all. Also the words “good morning” are not a pass but simply a greeting. Sorry the digression but when I read Susie’s comments I thought here is a woman I like but she still generalizes and doesn’t realize how what she says sounds when said out loud. I see men and some women marching to get the word ho’ banned from records and yet men have to argue to get women from referring to other women by that same word. It is a known fact that “bad boys” get more women lovers but no one better not say anything about the decision-making of the women in this situation. Yes, C. Delores Tucker,Hillary Clinton, and other women too numerous to mention have been great advocates for women but yes sometimes and just sometimes men are better advocates for women.

By B

August 21, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

Changing topics, can anyone ever remember a hotter, more miserable August? I had to break down and actually run my AC a little this year. Hard to believe football season is just around the corner….

Speaking of football, the pollsters have UGA two spots above Auburn. Any bets on whether that will hold?

Any thoughts about the Mike Vick situation? The word that comes to my mind is sad—sad that there are humans who enjoy watching animals suffer. He threw away a lot to pursue a bad passion.

By Scalia

August 21, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

My thoughts on the Mike Vick situation: why? You have all that money, and everything at your finger tips. You can have almost any woman you want. You can afford to travel anywhere. You can do almost anything. Why would you resort to doing something illegal and primitive? Use your time and energy for more productive things.

By B

August 21, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

You can have almost any woman you want.

Weren’t there rumors that Mike liked dudes, or something to that effect? Just kidding.

My gay friend claims that many of these “supermacho” guys have a secret gay life on the side. I often have a hard time believing him, but have to admit that all the butt-slapping in pro sports does seem a little odd. Ditto for the military and police.

By NetBanker

August 21, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Hey kids! Hope everyone is doing well. I have been out of commission here for a bit and was very sorry to hear about Diane’s untimely death.

Men can empahtize naturally but they truly can’t understand. I agree that men can’t truly understand, but I’m not certain they’re all able to empathize either. In either event, I don’t think that stops a man from being able to be an effective advocate for women. In my experience the best advocates are ones with heartfelt passion for their topic of advocacy.

Government is sometimes needed to ensure fairness and a level playing field. True that!! It’s so terribly easy to forget that in these times since most of us have not experienced the inequalities that can result from a completely free market. I think people forget the era of the Robber Barons as well as pre-child labor laws. And if those who still support the idea think that we’re more ethical today just read the business newspapers. Corporate malfeasance occurs all the time with some cases far more aggregious than others.

By your reasoning, Susie, by taking advantage of preventative healthcare, women’s overall health costs should be lower than mens’ overall healthcare costs, right? Faulty logic, here B. Since there are more women than men and women see the doctor more frequently their overall health care cost should be higher.

Never heard of a man having to worry about what his doctors ideology is. Unless you’re a gay man.

I guess the closest I came to being “harassed” was when a gay guy picked me up while I was hitchhiking one time and tried to put some moves on me. I was only about 12, Your experience was with a pedophile. He may have identified as homosexual, but only a pedophile would attempt anything with a 12 year old. As a gay man I can absolutely assure you there is a distinct difference.

By B

August 21, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

NetB—Welcome back!

Your experience was with a pedophile. He may have identified as homosexual, but only a pedophile would attempt anything with a 12 year old. As a gay man I can absolutely assure you there is a distinct difference.

I completely understand the difference, NetB. I have been hit on a few times as an adult as well. I guess that’s the price I have to pay for being good-looking. ; > }

Faulty logic, here B. Since there are more women than men and women see the doctor more frequently their overall health care cost should be higher.

I think my logic is good here, Net. The fact that there are more women than men has nothing to do with the per capita costs, which is what the insurance rates are based on. I was actually taking a subtle swipe at the oft-quoted “wisdom” that visiting your doctor frequently and receiving a lot of “preventative care” automatically results in better health, and thus lower total health care costs. The truth is that the folks who live the longest are the ones who visit their doctors the least, contrary to the “urban legend” that preventative care is the key to good health. Women’s healthcare costs more mostly because of the higher-maintenance plumbing system they were designed with.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 21, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Archie: I disagree with that statement Susie and I do think sometimes, sometimes men are better advocates for women than women. Notice I said sometimes and I said that because women’s evaluation process in personal relationships is kinda off.

OK. Now see how you’ve just made the same type of “generalizations” that you’ve accused me of making?!? Kinda easy to do huh? Archie, most women talk of feelings; their thought processes revolve around feelings. A man will ask, “How are you doing” a woman will ask “How are you feeling”. We women,(not all; don’t want to be called a generalizer again!), do sometimes lead with our hearts; we’ll say “I don’t feel like this person is telling the truth”; and although we don’t have any hardcore evidence of this; we are lead by our feelings and in 7 outta 10 cases we’re correct. We are complex to men; because men are more apt to look at the “logic” of the situation and don’t usually go with their feelings.

If a woman was the head of the free world, what type of world do you think it would be? I think it would be a world more safe for children and the elderly because women, as caregivers, “feel” their pain more quickly than their male counterpart. Not always of course, there are cold callous women as well as men.

I will say there are some things I don’t understand such as the toilet seat issue. Why do you get mad at me for leaving the seat up when you walk in facing the toilet and can just easily push the seat down?

I grew up with boys, I’m used to putting the seat down. So can’t help you there!

Also the words “good morning” are not a pass but simply a greeting.

True. Remember, some people carry around baggage from their past that they just can’t get rid of — perhaps some of the women you’ve spoken to are still weighted down with those bags. Also, the AJC had this blog on a couple of weeks ago about black men marrying white women, (I’m coming to the point hold on!); and one poster blogged that black women were arrogant, that’s why he didn’t date them. I was trying to explain that black women over a certain age, carry around LOTS of baggage that they have not learned to let go of yet. They carry around disappointments, relationship failures, baby daddy drama, mass media making them feel inferior, etc.; so, YES, they do seem to be “arrogant” at times; because they’ve learned to build this wall around themselves to stave off the hurt and pain. BUT, if you need a friend to pull you out of a situation, the best friend in the world to have is a black female friend, (IMO). These women will stand by your side, and help you fight your battles. They’ll let their credit go bad, to help you out of a bad situation. They’ll drive to pick you up in the middle of the night when you’re stranded in Nowhereville, now they’ll cuss you out when they get there, but they will come and get you. But first, they have to get rid of so much baggage and pain; once they can get past that they’re all right. I speak from personal experience. Once I let go of my “bags” I began to grow as a person. Mentally. Spritually. Financially. Everything. But I had to first let go of stuff that happened in my past that I had been holding on to for too long.

Sorry the digression but when I read Susie’s comments I thought here is a woman I like but she still generalizes and doesn’t realize how what she says sounds when said out loud.

HA! Is that so Mr. Generalization Man? :)

SIDEBAR Mike Vick: All I can say is this is a 27 year old man; he should’ve known better. All this crap about “keeping it real” and “hanging with the people who knew you before you had money” is just bullcrap. Hang with the people who are of the same mind as you, whether they have money or not. If you hang with someone who has class and character, some of their traits will rub off on you. Whereas if you hang with dogs……….. (couldn’t help it!!) :)

By B

August 21, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

If a woman was the head of the free world, what type of world do you think it would be? I think it would be a world more safe for children and the elderly because women, as caregivers, “feel” their pain more quickly than their male counterpart. Not always of course, there are cold callous women as well as men.

Susie—I’m more than ready for a strong woman leader. My personal experiences with women supervisors have all been positive. And—don’t tell anyone—I’m actually sick of the Republicans at this point. I understand that Bush had a unique challenge during his presidency with the terror attacks, but Iraq is seeming more and more like Vietnam every day.

If you hang with someone who has class and character, some of their traits will rub off on you. Whereas if you hang with dogs……….. (couldn’t help it!!) :)

Good one, Susie. Believe it or not, I’m a changed man these days. All the anger I had is gone, and most of the other bad emotions have settled down. It’s amazing what a little love and positive feedback can do for a person. I’m hoping to get back off my a* and start serving people again real soon.

By B

August 21, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Although I did get in a little trouble today… I agreed to help my lady friend with a big list of projects which she had fallen behind on. She didn’t seem to appreciate the humor when I showed her the Gemini horoscope for today on the bellsouth.net homepage: “Get someone to help who actually knows what they’re doing”. I thought it was pretty funny myself.

So I guess I’m not completely reformed.

By NetBanker

August 21, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

My gay friend claims that many of these “supermacho” guys have a secret gay life on the side. Sadly true more frequently than we’d like to admit.

By RastaMan

August 21, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

SusieHomeMaker,

you ignorant slut, pregnancy is caused by Viagra! And “deleting” a life because you’re an uncareful little tramp doesn’t bode well for that life you just “deleted”.

Men go to the Doctor just fine thank you. You just enjoy your visits to the “crackerjack male gynecologist” more than we like having a camera shoved up our backsides. Did you get off on you last visit. Go away, take your shoes off and bake some damn cookies!

By Hillary

August 22, 2007 7:16 AM | Link to this

Hello, nice site look this:

End ^) See you

By Mara

August 22, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this

waaaayyyyyy off topic, but here’s a page you all might find amusing…well…everybody but chuck, anyway!

http://www.unicornmuseum.org/wp/submissions

and there’s a poll!

By Chilao

August 22, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

So unicorns like to lay in the lap of virgin maidens? No wonder so many young girls have such a fascination with unicorns. And trust me, that is as far as I am going with that one. LOL

I plan on visiting that Creation Museum the next time I go the National Livestock Expo(NAILE) in Louisville. Maybe the Unicorn Museuem will be up and running by then, well, at least the billboard.

By Chilao

August 22, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

I think a better diorama at the CreationMuseum than showing humans living peacefully alongside dinosaurs would be one showing some velociraptors eating a human, as the rest of the family looked on horrified from a cave entrance too small for the velociraptors to enter. Now THAT’s natural science.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

SusieHomeMaker, you ignorant slut, pregnancy is caused by Viagra! And “deleting” a life because you’re an uncareful little tramp doesn’t bode well for that life you just “deleted”.

OK, here is another example of someone who is a nutcase; it seems that blogs have more than their fair share of them at some point. Oh well. Please have a nice day, sir and don’t forget to take your lithium.

By Lyrazel

August 22, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Andrea wrote Women aren’t going to pick a leader just on the basis of gender. Yet are we going to make sure that the big, rancorous tent of sisterhood is strongly represented in today’s government? You bet your sweet voting rights we are.

I disagree sadly knowing how few American women actually vote. By refusing (list excuses here__) to participate in local and state elections women have continued their apathy toward achieving any higher stand in 21st century society. Current dominance of men in state and local government office proves the point that women on a local level find issues of their state irrelevant given women are now in majority and could use their power of vote to change. Look no further than current legislation affecting family care, privacy, fiscal policy, medical treatments and discrimination laws being changed without need of covert agendas. If the vast majority of women had voted for a candidate whose platform was to increase health care (albeit raise taxes) instead of chumming up with a candidate who offered traditional values and lower taxes for the extremely wealthy—would there be a war in Iraq? Women are turning in droves away from sisterhood that propelled the generations before to demand equal rights, equal opportunity and modern women just accept their paycheck is going to be 20% less than their male peers. Women have accepted changes in laws that control only women’s physical health without a protest. Women have accepted fanaticism disguised as patriotic duty to one’s country in order they can continue driving to work, having their salon treatments done, having homes built by illegal labor to afford a larger residence, have traded other’s job security for cheap imports and have said little except complain about costs of their lifestyle going up and they did not understand the operator at the overseas phone bank taking calls. In the big picture Andrea, modern women don’t give a rats arse for sisterhood causes UNLESS they stand to benefit…and so I conclude women are no better off and certainly no better than the same men whom they elected by apathetic default.

Andrea, it is never the person we elect who has power but lobbyists who control the votes of them who are elected. Those earmarked bills, that pork, them constituents with cash. The greasy connect the dot of political favoritism is completely non-sexist since fundraising is 75% of a politicians job.

By 2D

August 22, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Yo Susie… I know it was several posts ago, but you need to keep in mind that women “choose” to take on the triumverate of wife/mother/worker. No woman must do all three. I don’t remember marriage, motherhood, taking a career or any combination of said to be a pre-ordained requirement of the female gender.

I know plenty of women who are single and working; married and working without children; married and working with children; married and not working with children. Their concsious choice(s). Noone forced anything down their throats.

By Archie

August 22, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

SusieH I do like you, I hope you know that and I sense that you do and you are not ignorant at all. I do generalize only to keep from using actual names. My name is recognizable to some people here in my home state and they know I read AJC. the best friend in the world to have is a black female friend SusieH I do like black females but sometimes you guys make me leary because you may flip out because of that baggage you mention. Sometimes dealing with you guys I feel like I can’t do anything unless I check in with the wife first and I am just not going to do that and some of y’all(black women) get offended at that attitude but you’ll get over it. Also I had better not say anything too good about a white woman other than Hillary, well, I don’t follow that plan either but inspite of certain issues with women I still want to be on the right side of women’s issues and I think I can do some good for women. I do believe men should take more responsibility for birth control and I am pro-choice and that morning-after pill should be available for grown women. I don’t care if I get criticized sometimes because I am not right all the time. As for Vick rather than blame the dudes he was hanging out with, well, I blame Vick because he is a grown man and it is time people stop saying he should have picked better friends because I have friends that smoke reefer but I don’t. Vick will serve his time and hopefully, get a second chance to play football. Also SusieH hopefully some more of our young people will read various newspapers and keep up with current events other than entertainment so that they can understand that a man can be an advocate for women and that entertainers can earn money without using the filthiest language possible.

By kimberly

August 22, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

2D, Wow. I mean seriously, Wow. Am I correct in my presumption that you are a male?

When it’s your turn to spin the wheel, will you please ask Vanna if you can buy a vowel? Because if you think that being a woman means no one ever forces anything down your throat, then you truly have NO clue. None.

By Jen

August 22, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Uh, 2D I guess men “choose” the same triumvirate of husband/father/worker. How come they don’t pay the same price?

By Facts

August 22, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

2D is a female who wishes to have her posts be perceived as gender neutral.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Right On Kimberly!!! Guys, read Kimberly’s post. This is what I mean about empathy. Only another woman will truly understand what Kim is talking about! You may empathize with her words, but I don’t think you really have a clue about the experience.

Archie: SusieH I do like black females but sometimes you guys make me leary because you may flip out because of that baggage you mention. Sometimes dealing with you guys I feel like I can’t do anything unless I check in with the wife first and I am just not going to do that and some of y’all(black women) get offended at that attitude but you’ll get over it

I don’t know if you were serious or not but that was too funny!!! OK sure black women sometimes DO flip out. But please remember, it’s not a Sybil thing. What it is, is the icing on the cake. That whole day may have tried her patience, (bad kids, school, work, traffic, blatant racism, covert racism, boss, etc.); and when she meets you, (who are only trying to be nice), she just flips out!! I read an article in Essence a few years ago, that stated that Black women were the most depressed, (emotionally), group of people in America but the least likely to seek psychiatric help. The article went on to explain that the reasonings behind why some don’t seek help, is because they feel that by doing so deletes from the “strong black woman standing on her own” personna.

2D: Lots of women who, before pregnancy, talked with their significant other concerning the caregiving of the child(ren) and decided to “share” responsibility — will have a problem with what you’ve just said. Men, (not ALL men), sometimes “forget” how to do the simplest of things once they’re married and the children start coming. They forget so much that the woman is left with the complete responsibility of child rearing. Ask any widower who has young children to raise how hard it is. Most of them will tell you that they never knew how much work their spouse really did until they lost them.

By lozen

August 22, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

Hello everyone! Good comments today from Susie, Kimberly, Mara, Lyrazel, all you great women. If we had a candidate who wasn’t wealthy and privileged from birth,whether it was a male or female, we would vote for that person, would we not? Well, maybe we do have such a candidate: Kucinich. But he is short, looks funny (and we know how shallow the voting public is; how the good looking, tall guys always win if there is one) and is a little over the top for most. The people we have the “choice” to vote on, are hand-picked by the wealthy. And they aren’t gonna let that change. Someday history will look back on us and say, “Can you believe? They actually thought they were free and had representative government!” And Archie, Susie is right! You accuse women of making generalized statements about men. You always make generalized statements about women. I’m always amazed by your examples of the behavior of the women around you too. I don’t know any women who refer to another woman as a ‘ho.’ Of course I know there are women who feel no loyalty to other women, who don’t like other women, and see other women as nothing but competition. Those women somehow missed the very important lesson about how we’ve been set up to be enemies because it benefits men so much for women to think that way! Surely you, as a black man, understand how the ruling class (white males) had things set just the way they wanted them until 40 years ago! Blacks were taught to think they were inferior to whites. Remember that? Women were taught to think we were inferior to men. Come on Archie. You don’t see the parallels here?

By lozen

August 22, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

And can you believe this statement from the man who has the measurements of the Ark down and believes abortion effects the fetus more than the woman? Clearly his wife has done all the child rearing just as a good, god-fearing woman should! Most men that I come in contact with (conservatives) are all over these issues. We are all in favor of equal pay and going after rapists. It seems that you are still living in the 1950’s. Most of us have moved forward. Yeah chuckles fer shur!

By B

August 22, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Susie—Classy response to Rastaman.

Out of curiosity, did you watch Dreamgirls? I saw it last night. Incredible performances by Eddie Murphy, Jennifer Hudson, Jamie Foxx, and Beyonce.

kimberly—I strongly believe that 2D is a woman and is an empathetic person. Is it possible that different women have different experiences in life dealing with men?

By kimberly

August 22, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Hey Lozen! Nice to hear from you. It’s been a long, sad intermission. Still sad. {:-<

By lozen

August 22, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this

Ah, Kimberly. Bless your heart. I was shocked and surprised by Diane’s death too. It is very sad.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

I saw Dreamgirls four times. Once when I was little and the touring company came to Baton Rogue; three times here in Atlanta, both times with Jennifer Holiday as Effie,in 2003 and this year in 2007; and also at the movies. Suffice it to say i LOVE dreamgirls!! I will say however, watching Jennifer Hudson at the movies, and then seeing the live stage show last month, I was constantly comparing the two Jennifer’s performances.

I think Hudson beat Holiday though; she just had more sass and took a different angle on the character’s (Effie’s) portrayal. Hudson was more, career first then the man; whereas holiday’s portrayal was more, “my man is everything, my career second”. Either way it was GOOD. I wish I could sing like that!!!

By NetBanker

August 22, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Afternoon everyone! Hey Lozen! ~cyber hugs~

Clapping for Lyrazel. She’s right on target that the only way women are going to make gains in public office is for women to vote for them if only because they are women. I also have the impression from workplace politics that sisterhood in the workplace is quickly subjegated by personal gain or standing.

I’ve come to the conclusion that family values/traditional values are just as mythical as the ‘gay agenda.’

How come they don’t pay the same price? Very good question, Jen! I suggest that men don’t pay the same price because they still aren’t expected too. Since most corporate leaders continue to be men and either men of an era when women stayed home when they became mothers or men who earn enough that their wives don’t have to work, this expectation of men not actively participating in child care quietly suffuses the workplace. It is my observation that in most cases men are NOT as comfortable nor made to feel comfortable asking for or taking time away from work to be present in their children’s lives…unless it’s for sports. It’s ok to leave work early every so often to see little Johnny’s game or to coach Jane’s soccer team, but not so much for a school play or band concert or when the school calls and the child is sick. I’ve heard men asked “Can’t your wife take your son/daughter to the doctor?” on more than one occasion.

To be blunt, there won’t be family values legislation changes until either women start electing more women to office or men stand up and demand them. As a recent issue of National Geographic pointedly showed, the United States provides the least amount of paid leave of any nation on earth for child birth and care. A majority of nations provide either full salary for a period of 6 months or 1/2 salary for a year with a guaranteed return to work in the same or peer position.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

If we had a candidate who wasn’t wealthy and privileged from birth,whether it was a male or female, we would vote for that person, would we not?

Already done! The most recent was Clinton, (single parent home). The most popular (today) was Lincoln, (log cabin).

Archie: Off the subject. Recently in a lot of black literary circles, there has been a deluge of anti-Lincoln rhetoric being bandied about. What do you think of it? Do you think Lincoln was a racist? My opinion is that Lincoln was a man of his times and ahead of his times. He may a have said, N*ER; but he also said, “Slavery is wrong”. Who knows, 200 years from now someone might find our blogs via intra space and think, by our talking points and responses, that we are racists. I have always believed that actions really do speak louder than words. And words said in the context of history, should not be joined with the words said today. Your thoughts.

By B

August 22, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

I wish I could sing like that!!!

In my imagination, you sing even better, Susie! What is Jennifer Hudson’s background? I never heard of her until last year.

Already done! The most recent was Clinton, (single parent home).

I know Clinton liked to trumpet his “poor childhood”, but I’m not so convinced they were financially poor. One piece of evidence to the contrary is the existence of color home movies of Bill when he was about 12 years old (circa 1960). Now I don’t know about your home neighborhood, but I didn’t know anyone who owned a home movie camera, even in the late 1970s. The fact that they could afford such a camera in 1960 makes me suspicious.

By NetBanker

August 22, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Susie or Archie…I don’t mean to jump into your conversation about Lincoln, but I’m curious if either of you have read Anne Rice’s Feast of All Saints or something similar? I just finished the book and it’s a rather interesting read on the lives of free “people of color” in New Orleans/Louisiana in the 1840’s. I was very unaware of the size and wealth of this community as well as their ownership of plantations and slaves.

By Anonymous

August 22, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

We’ll have a free, representative government the day you can vote for a poor person.

By B

August 22, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Recently in a lot of black literary circles, there has been a deluge of anti-Lincoln rhetoric being bandied about. What do you think of it? Do you think Lincoln was a racist? My opinion is that Lincoln was a man of his times and ahead of his times.

I know that the Sons of the Confederacy and other “Southern heritage” groups like to promote the idea that Lincoln was nothing more than an opportunistic racist. In reviewing some of their literature, I have to admit that some of the facts paint an unclear message. According to what I’ve read, Lincoln was 100% against integration of the races, envisioning instead a mass movement of freed slaves back to Africa via Liberia.

By B

August 22, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

From my understanding, there was a “black renaissance” in the US from the late 1800s to the early 1900s, with many successful A/A businessmen and community leaders like W.E Dubois and Alonzo Herndon.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

What is Jennifer Hudson’s background? I never heard of her until last year.

She’s an American Idol alumni, don’t know which season though. Apparently, during trials, she belted out the famous, “I’m not going” song, which caught someone’s ear; and when they decided to make a film version of Dreamgirls, her name came up.

I didn’t know anyone who owned a home movie camera, even in the late 1970s. The fact that they could afford such a camera in 1960 makes me suspicious.

Perhaps they did it the old fashioned way — put the camera on lay away until they could afford to pay it off. Whatever happened to lay away?

NetB: I just finished the book and it’s a rather interesting read on the lives of free “people of color” in New Orleans/Louisiana in the 1840’s. I was very unaware of the size and wealth of this community as well as their ownership of plantations and slaves.

I lived in Louisiana through middle school and yes there is some semblance of truth in the fact that there were colored people who owned slaves, (mostly in Florida and Lousiana); but mostly they owned them before those states were part of the Union, not afterwards. On the condition of becoming part of the Union some southern states would not allow blacks to have wealth equal = or > than whites of the same era.

Also remember, that a lot of free blacks would buy their relatives out of slavery. If they lived up North, in order to get their relatives to them safely they needed a bill of sale.

Most Europeans are the descendants of slaves as well as slave owners. The fuedal system began replacing slavery in Northern Europe during the Middile Ages when landowners discovered collecting rents was easier than owning slaves. Even the Irish’s beloved Saint Patrick was a fomer slave. Native Americans also practiced slavery, before and after the European discovery of America. The American Civil War did not end slavery on tribal lands. The U.S. goverment ended slavery following the Civil War by buying slaves from the tribes. The Cherokee were the last to give up their slaves; remember the Cherokee Nation recently voted to ban the descendants of Cherokee slaves from the tribal rolls.

Rice’s books are based on historical facts; not historical facts themselves; although she tries to be as close to accurate as possible without damaging the vibe or context of her stories.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 22, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

In reviewing some of their literature, I have to admit that some of the facts paint an unclear message. According to what I’ve read, Lincoln was 100% against integration of the races, envisioning instead a mass movement of freed slaves back to Africa via Liberia.

In taking the defense of Lincoln, from my readings of his personal letters and correspondences to friends and family; it was not so much that Lincoln was against blacks by wanting them to return to their native land, but IMO it was more of him wanting them to have the opportunity to propser in their own lands moreso than they, in his eyes, could reasonably prosper in America.

As for miscengenation, you must remember that he was a product of his times. There weren’t too many blacks who wanted their lineage tainted with white blood either at first. It was only after being in America and on the plantations and seeing how the preferrential treatment was afforded to light skinned blacks versus darker skinned blacks, that they tried to attain a lighter skinned version of themselves; BUT they still did not like the idea of mixing their bloodlines with whites.

By Archie

August 22, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

*Archie, Susie is right! You accuse women of making generalized statements about men. You always make generalized statements about women. I’m always amazed by your examples of the behavior of the women around you too. I don’t know any women who refer to another woman as a ‘ho.’ *

Lozen I mean no harm but you don’t know all women. I absolutely had to chastise a young lady just recently for calling another female a ‘ho. You can’t deal with criticism of women but like I said to SusieH you can get over it. You cannot come to the blog and say men do this, men do that and not expect to get actual return examples.

I don’t know if you were serious or not but that was too funny!!! OK sure black women sometimes DO flip out. But please remember, it’s not a Sybil thing. What it is, is the icing on the cake.

SusieH I am glad you’re laughing because you get my spirit. I don’t really know if Lincoln was racist but I suspect he was just because of the era in which he lived. Also I bet that you SusieH know some young ladies that call one another ‘ho. Also trust me SusieH as a man we deal with bad kids, work,traffic,bad boss, bad police, covert and overt racism. If I don’t say good morning someone will say “he thinks he’s all that”. Also I have two women here at work that can vouch for some of the crazy behavior of other women and SusieH thanks for understanding where I am coming from. I picked that up from your laughing but some folk think women should be exempt from criticism and that’s not realistic. SusieH you get it and I do read Essence magazine and I do understand there is a difference in what you sisters go thru but sometimes you need to know you got an advocate if you loosen the attitude. Good afternoon, ladies, hope that didn’t offend.

By B

August 22, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Gotta run, but I have a question for the teachers: Is there any organized effort to promote assertiveness in young women in schools these days? Ideally, such “training” would take place at home, but, considering the importance of helping women deal with unwanted sexual advances, I would be pleased as a taxpayer to see such a program in place.

By Lyrazel

August 22, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

There was color super 8 in the 50s-60se…wind up super 8s were available and many people had projectors to show the family color movies; more than just the wealthy, the middle class and working poor classes had this ‘luxury’.

Anonymous, voting for a poor person can be just as ludicrous as voting for a wealthy person or voting for a particular sex. Until we get rid of the entrenched special interest panhandlers its wink wink politics as usual. One puppet or another from any party won’t change what needs changing. If we were not the world’s largest arsenal America would be in a position to end world hunger and every American would have the world’s best roads, bridges, schools and health care, but wink wink politics needs ball and chained masses to suck the nipple of party, patriotism and military supremacy. If you vote check out who sponsors your candidate.

NetBanker, you may already know but the women’s movement of the 70s concentrated on the ERA amendment (that failed). The women’s movement in the USA was not sympathetic toward the housewife in their seeking liberation, independence and abortion rights. America’s sisterhood is powerful movement shot its own sisters down to be in charge of the megaphone. European womens’ groups took up the housewife cause & issues and thus now they have long maternity leaves as well as childcare offered by workplaces.

By NetBanker

August 22, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

they owned them before those states were part of the Union, not afterwards This is pretty clear in the book, which as you point out trend toward an accurate historical representation. I find these types of books more interesting because they really do tend to infuse a greater understanding of people and their experiences of the times than do pure facts.

It’s not until toward the end of the book that the differences in slavery between the U.S. version and the European influenced version of slavery are pointed out. The mention that the slave uprisings of Haiti (fomerly San Domingue) would have been unlikely in the U.S. because of the crushing dehumanization of slaves and the brutality shown to them in the U.S. South was something that I’d never really considered even though I knew that pre-civil war slavery was too often a horrific experience. I think that my revelations were more that there was a more humane slavery (if that’s possible) and a treatment of people of color that devolved into a brutal system in Louisana and Florida after they became integrated into the U.S.

Thanks for the education on European slavery becoming the feudal system. I was aware of Native American history, but admit that I’m rather ignorant of it’s workings.

You know when I consider the Michael Vick case, the war in Iraq, the starvation in N. Korea, the slaughter in Darfur, the hidden slavery that quietly continues today and compare that against history we humans are really do seem to have a violent and brutal nature that hasn’t change very much throughout time.

By NetBanker

August 22, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

If you vote check out who sponsors your candidate. I don’t recall who, but recently there was a suggestion that legislators should have to wear patches just like NASCAR drivers with the size of patch indicating the size of the contribution so that we could all know which businesses and PACs were influencing each politician. I think that’s a great idea, myself.

By Lily Toad

August 22, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Netbanker,

I think you are right in your last paragraph. Humans are guilty of inhumane acts against each other as much today as ever. On this score I don’t think we’ve made much progress. I’d like to blame testosterone (apologies to the gentle men out there), but Hilary is a hawk, and probably the only woman who could get elected president would have to be a hawk to prove she could be commander in chief. Look at how marginalized Kucinich, who advocates a Dept. of Peace, is.

By Lily Toad

August 22, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Question about slavery in England: Was it race-based like in the US?

By lozen

August 22, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

Hey Net! Good points from you too bud.

Clapping for Lyrazel. She’s right on target that the only way women are going to make gains in public office is for women to vote for them if only because they are women. Someone on radio this morning asked Mayor Franklin if she thought people in this country are ready for a woman prez and would vote for Hilary. She responded “If women are ready and vote for her…” And this is where divisiveness between women (and every other group you can think of) works to the advantage of the “good ole boys”. And, please, don’t think they don’t know that! Our present admin’s ad man, Rove, knew well how to divide and conquer.

By 2D

August 22, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

NetB… I’ve read multiple books on Henriette Delille. The best is titled “Servant of Slaves” by William Kelley.

She was a quadroon, a daughter of a wealthy woman color, cousin to voodo queen Marie Laveaux, could have easily become a mistress to the white gentry of New Orleans and lived a lavish life of luxury. The physical descriptions of here are such that she was one of the most beautiful women in the entire city, even in her shabby habit, and could have easily passed as white if one did not know exactly who she was.

Instead, she chose a life of poverty and chastity and worked with the homeless, abandoned slaves that lived in the city shadows. Her devotion to the Christ and to the church spurred not only her work with the slaves but also inspired her to found a religious order specifically for women of color, one that still exists today.

I would veyr much like to see a “good” movie made about her life. The one with Vanessa Williams on Lifetime was a sham. As beautiful as she is, Vanessa Williams looked nothing like Henriette. The story was also far too melodramatic (alas it was on Lifetime).

By Chilao

August 22, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

dang; read that letter at end with the CC: to the Pope. Seems she was/is? up for Canonization.

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/CreoleCulture/famouscreoles/henriettedelille/HenrietteDelille.htm

By lozen

August 22, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Yes Net, I love that patch idea too, but it will never happen. It would take full-scale revolution to change our govn’t and that won’t happen until the majority of us have nothing left to lose (we definitely seem headed that way but it will be a while in coming). And anyway revolutions don’t work either; it just removes one set of users and replaces them with another. Power corrupts…. ya know?

If we were not the world’s largest arsenal America would be in a position to end world hunger and every American would have the world’s best roads, bridges, schools and health care, but wink wink politics needs ball and chained masses to suck the nipple of party, patriotism and military supremacy. Lyrazel, how’d ya get to be so smart?

By USinUK

August 23, 2007 8:24 AM | Link to this

Greetings from rainy London … to address some of the statements and questions raised above:

Lyrazel, I couldn’t disagree more with your comment: The women’s movement in the USA was not sympathetic toward the housewife in their seeking liberation, independence and abortion rights. America’s sisterhood is powerful movement shot its own sisters down to be in charge of the megaphone. European womens’ groups took up the housewife cause & issues and thus now they have long maternity leaves as well as childcare offered by workplaces.

Sorry, but one of the reasons the ERA movement failed was because of fearmongers like Phyllis Schlafly and her ilk who demonized feminists for wanting equal treatment under the law. I was a kid in Atlanta 1970s and I remember the cries of “feminists want unisex bathrooms!!” - stupid statements like that drove men to the ballot box in HERDS to make sure the “little ladies” stayed in their places.

As for European attitudes towards women, I think the UK and Europe is about 10-15 years behind the US as far as attitudes about women go. Yeah, we have better maternity leave here (6 months paid in the UK), but the courts are a lot more lenient in cases of rape if alcohol is involved. People still look at you as if you’ve grown a third eye in the middle of your forehead if you tell them you don’t want children. It’s the day-to-day attitudes like that that make me think Brits are just slightly behind the US as far as equality goes.

Lily Toad asked Question about slavery in England: Was it race-based like in the US?

I’m not sure I understand your question - are you asking IF there were slaves in England or if there were AFRICAN slaves in England?? Yes, there were some slaves - especially when slave owners from the colonies brought them back here. But not nearly the numbers we had in the US. England had more of a “merchant” role in slavery, shipping them in the triangle trade, rather than owning them. Basically, because of a MUCH different farming system, they didn’t need slaves.

There’s an excellent article in today’s Financial Times about a new slavery museum that opened in Liverpool which highlights not only the slave trade and abolition (read up on William Wilberforce who led the fight for abolition with Parliament) - but it also highlights the role of former slaves in the abolition movement.

By B

August 23, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

USinUK—A more serious objection to the ERA is in regard to military service. Would you be comfortable with ladies being drafted for combat positions?

On a lighter note, the AJC home page had an article called “Never too old for sex” with an attached video this AM. Is anyone brave enough to watch that video and report back?

By USinUK

August 23, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

Hi B -

the draft question is really a 2-parter … 1) would I be more comfortable with the draft, full-stop? I think that, if EVERY child was eligible to go to Iraq (including Jenna and not-Jenna), we wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. 2) I think that women are proving themselves in the military everyday, in combat and support roles. The biggest problem they have is their own colleagues attacking them.

By lozen

August 23, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

USinUK, it always amazes me when the 70’s women’s movement is accused of trashing women. There was an emphasis on politics, career, education, of course because these were the areas in which women were held back for hundreds of years. The movement realized we had to move into these public areas if we were ever to change the laws and have a voice in this country. Also the women who were happy and satisfied being wives and mothers weren’t very active in the women’s movement; therefore, their concerns may have been ignored to some extent. I read many, many books on feminism; there were always articles about how wives and mothers were the laborers supporting everything because they worked for free and weren’t even given credit for what they did. The book that’s often credited with waking women up and starting the women’s movement, Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique, was all about the housewife, the wasted talents of women, the despair and confusion of women when we had everything we had been taught we were supposed to want and found ourselves feeling so unfulfilled and unhappy.

The women’s movement, due to the backlash, has become a scapegoat for everything that’s wrong in our culture! Da-mn feminazis! If women didn’t work, the kids would have better care and there wouldn’t be any drug problem! If women didn’t have to prove themselves in the workplace (because that’s what the movement said they had to do!), they could stay home and take care of the family like they should - it has nothing to do with economics, ya know? Having lived pre women’s movement, I can tell you I appreciate being able to have credit, seeing women entering higher education, law, medicine in unprecedented numbers, seeing women who do not have to stay with abusive men because now they can make a living (it may not be much but it’s possible), seeing women’s sports taken somewhat seriously, seeing Hilary run for prez, seeing women chairing and becoming deans and even presidents of colleges, seeing the first female mayors elected, etc. etc. The women’s movement made my life and the life of all woman in this country a great deal better than it was in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. But it could not do everything for everybody.

And we’ve rehashed this over and over on this blog: if anyone is going to be drafted then everyone, male or female, should be eligible!

By USinUK

August 23, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Lozen - The women’s movement made my life and the life of all woman in this country a great deal better than it was in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. But it could not do everything for everybody.

I could hug you!!!

By lozen

August 23, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

All hugs are truly appreciated :->. I send you one back my friend.

By lozen

August 23, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

It is sad that history is so easily rewritten/reinterpreted. Most of us are taught history in such a boring and confusing way in high schools we lose interest and never learn anything about our history after that. When I studied history in high school, I had no idea what the first women’s movement, the Sufferagettes, did for me! They were just crazy ladies who wore bloomers and marched in the streets causing trouble. It was only when that history became important during the second movement that we women learned what we had to thank those crazy ladies for. I didn’t know who Susan B was or Cady-Stanton or George Sand or Margaret Sanger or Fuller or any of those women because they were ignored by male writers of history books. And now the same thing has happened to the movement of the 60’s/70’s! USinUK, it is really interesting to get your perspective on how things are there for women. I’m really glad you are here.

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

USinUK, someone yesterday said that the feudal system replaced slavery, so I wasn’t asking IF there were slaves in the UK, but if the slaves were Africans. I was under the impression that there was slavery more recently than prior to the feudal system, but was not aware of actual slavery in the 16th or 17th centuries, except as you mentioned, that England was involved in the slave trade. I’ll check out the links you included.

By B

August 23, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

I can tell you I appreciate being able to have credit, seeing women entering higher education, law, medicine in unprecedented numbers, seeing women who do not have to stay with abusive men because now they can make a living (it may not be much but it’s possible), seeing women’s sports taken somewhat seriously, seeing Hilary run for prez, seeing women chairing and becoming deans and even presidents of colleges, seeing the first female mayors elected, etc. etc.

lozen—I can’t speak for the men of yesteryear, but I, along with every other male I know, support women’s rights and equality under the law 100%. At the same time, it is obvious to me that the biological differences between men and women prevent us from ever being equal in the sense of being the same. For example, I think it is natural for the man to be the physical protector of the woman in a relationship. The greatest shame we men have to bear as a group is that certain men use their physical advantage to harm women, not protect them.

By B

August 23, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

Most of us are taught history in such a boring and confusing way in high schools we lose interest and never learn anything about our history after that.

There may be some truth to that, lozen. Think about how boring our own resident history teacher is: chuck. ; > }

On a personal note, I share your grief at Diane’s passing. Though I never met her in person, I felt I knew her somewhat based on her columns. She presented a tough exterior, but I always felt she had a good heart underneath it all. I know she provided an intelligent voice for a lot of women, which I respect deeply.

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

B, I hope you instill that sense of shame in any man you see abusing a woman, physically or emotionally. It’s a responsibility of men to step in and say, “hey, mistreating your woman is not acceptable.”

I bravely watched the video about older people having sex. Don’t worry - no sex scenes. The video didn’t really offer anything that the written article didn’t. What did you want to discuss about it? That old people have sex at roughly the rate as younger people? Not exactly earth-shattering news.

By B

August 23, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

B, I hope you instill that sense of shame in any man you see abusing a woman, physically or emotionally. It’s a responsibility of men to step in and say, “hey, mistreating your woman is not acceptable.”

Lily, I’ve intervened physically more than once in my lifetime even though I’m not a big guy, and also counseled many women in my chiropractic practice to help stop the bad behaviors. I can’t stand seeing abuse of any kind, and will risk my own safety to stop it.

As for my own track record, unfortunately I can’t claim perfection. I’ve never used or even threatened physical force to get my way, and never will. I have used harsh words in the past, for which I am ashamed.

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

B, nobody’s perfect. I’d be surprised if there’s anyone who hasn’t used harsh language with someone they loved.

By Lyrazel

August 23, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Contrary to what it seems I wrote yesterday, yes the USA’s women movement helped women (especially those who were of age and the future generations. Strange how few modern women identify themselves as feminists). I give credit where credit is due but know facts too. There was a division between women who wanted representation as wives and mothers and the NOW movement that was distancing itself from such traditional roles. Phyllis Shafley was not as influential as believed because Betty Ford who was extremely well respected was pro ERA. ERA did not pass because congress did not feel women issues needed to change the amendment and change could happen voluntarily. European women’s groups got longer time off and work-based daycare (some like in Sweden have a year + 6 mo. for dads) because that was where they worked to gain change.

The feudal system was prior to slavery. (It was slavery of a kind in its way). When European interests gained land overseas and started populations in the Americas, West Indies, Caribbean and Africa they began buying blacks from Africa and shipping them to the islands like Haiti and Jamaica. There were slaves in Europe in the 1700s but most were in the colonies and by 1750 most European nations did not permit slaves in Europe. Out of sight out of mind, I guess. (Europe had a very cheap labor supply anyway) but Europeans kept up the trade of selling human beings into the 19th century.

By NetBanker

August 23, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this

Happy Thursday everyone!

Thanks for the reading recommendations, 2D. There is a character in Rice’s book who is also a quadroon and pushed in the direction of the ‘quadroon balls’ by her mother when their fortunes change with the death of their white gentleman planter or “protector.” The girl is in love with a man of color, but the mother wants her to attend the balls to ensure that her brother will be able to be sent to Paris so he can have a life free of the discrimination he’ll forever encounter in New Orleans. The twist in the story is that before the death of the planter the mother is against the girl’s marriage to a man of color because she can pass and wants her to do so so that she can “have everything” that her brother never will unless he can escape to Europe.

Most of us are taught history in such a boring and confusing way in high schools we lose interest and never learn anything about our history after that. Great observation, Lozen. I’ve always enjoyed history and think my parents helped instill that love through innumerable camping trips and visits to state parks and historic sites. This may be why I enjoy historical novels or even historical fiction that remain true to historical fact. It is the personalization of those who lived in the times that makes the history come alive. Diana Gabaldon’s series around the time of the Scottish uprising or John Jakes’s series are some examples that gave me a greater appreciation for the times. I also had a phenominal history and philosophy professor whose approach to teaching history was to examine not just dry facts and dates, but to discuss the socio-political-economic conditions that led up to or resulted from various major historical events. He also would explore the experiences of the common man rather than solely focusing on the elite/powerful who drive events.

By B

August 23, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

B, nobody’s perfect. I’d be surprised if there’s anyone who hasn’t used harsh language with someone they loved.

Thank you for your kind encouragement, Lily. In my own case, however, I lost the love of my life about two years ago because I couldn’t get my anger under control. Life just hasn’t been the same ever since.

By lozen

August 23, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

it is obvious to me that the biological differences between men and women prevent us from ever being *equal in the sense of being the same.* Who said “equal under the law” means “same”? But then, there are women who could beat you up with one arm tied behind their backs. There are some men who would need me to protect them because they’re too weak to protect themselves. I don’t remember ever pointing out to them that “we will never be equal” because of that.

By B

August 23, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

ERA did not pass because congress did not feel women issues needed to change the amendment and change could happen voluntarily.

Lyrazel, I’m relying on my now-faulty memory, but wasn’t ratification of the ERA the responsibility of the states, not the Congress? If I remember correctly, a 75% majority is required to pass new Amendments to the Constitution, an almost insurmountable challenge for any proposed Amendment, however valid.

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

Congress approved the ERA, but it was up to 2/3 of the states to pass it through their legislatures. Scare tactics like women in the military (now in effect) coed bathrooms (now in effect in some restaurants) and gay marriage (now in effect in Mass.) were used to defeat it at the state level.

By B

August 23, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

lozen—Obviously there are exceptions, but on average there are significant physical differences between men and women that no law can erase. As a result, in both the military and fire services, the physical entrance requirements for women are lower than those for men of the same weight and height. Is that fair in your mind? If one of your relatives burned alive in a fire because a woman firefighter wasn’t strong enough to carry them to safety, would you think that was acceptable?

By NetBanker

August 23, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

there are women who could beat you up with one arm tied behind their backs. And one can frequently find them at Twains in Decatur.

By B

August 23, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

And one can frequently find them at Twains in Decatur.

Thanks for the tip, Net! I love tough women.

By B

August 23, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Net—Did you ever try the gay bar out in Tucker on Hugh Howell Road? They regularly feature “Charlie Brown”, a legendary drag performer from Atlanta, along with the “Tuckerettes”. I never poked my head in, but did go to Backstreets a few times before they closed down a few years ago. Years ago, while in college, I used to deliver pizzas to the Pharr Road Library Disco. They used to request me for some reason. I might have been insulted, but they regularly gave me a $10 tip which covered any concerns about personal pride. ; > }

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Watchout, B. If you approach one of those women at Twain’s her girlfriend may beat you up!

By B

August 23, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Watchout, B. If you approach one of those women at Twain’s her girlfriend may beat you up!

Heck, that would probably turn me on even more!

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

Yea, Diane and Andrea! Yes, those women could do that to me!I am afraid of my own shadow! Women are just my thing! And Phyllis Schafly gets credit for the defeat of the ERS, but women are in the military even more so and will get to be in full combat soon to her chagrin! [She and Bill O’Reilly - are Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity their love children?]

By lozen

August 23, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Net, it was a gay male friend who taught me that line years ago. ;-) and yes, they can be found at Twains! If one of your relatives burned alive in a fire because a woman firefighter wasn’t strong enough to carry them to safety, would you think that was acceptable? Oh, jeez. What are the chances of that? I just love you guys “I believe women should be equal under the law BUT… I think you should make the same money BUT…” You’ve posted on this blog long enough for everyone to know what a Neanderthal you are already and what your true feelings are toward woman due to comments you made in the past.

By B

August 23, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

I just love you guys “I believe women should be equal under the law BUT… I think you should make the same money BUT…” You’ve posted on this blog long enough for everyone to know what a Neanderthal you are already and what your true feelings are toward woman due to comments you made in the past.

lozen—My point is that “equal under the law” breaks down in the cases in which certain physical requirements must be met. Equal pay makes sense only when equal work is performed. The essence of any type of “affirmative action” is promoting less qualified individuals for the purpose of meeting a certain demographic quota, which I can’t support. The bottom line is that two wrongs can never make a right.

As for your comments that I am a Neanderthal who is anything but loving toward women, I disagree. My overall track record with wives and girlfriends is positive. Some still call me to this day wishing me well. At the same time, I can’t defend my performance here on the blog (or anywhere else for that matter) in the past year or so. Everything went sour for me all at the same time, and I lost it. I’m truly sorry for taking it out on you and the others here on W2W. From my heart, I believe you are a good and honorable person, lozen. I can’t take back any harsh words directed toward you and the others, but please know that those aren’t my true feelings.

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Those tough women would find me to easy a pushover! Phyllis Schafly helped do in the ERA and hates it that soon women will participate fully in battle! Whether Lady Margaret[ Thatcher] or Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, women can lead![ Hillary,my girl, is a combattant against the right.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 23, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

The feudal system was prior to slavery

In Europe with the advent of Roman Occupation, slavery was prior to the feudal system. Although it was not primarily introduced by the Romans because all civilizations at one time or another have practiced a form of slavery.

• ERA did not pass because congress did not feel women issues needed to change the amendment and change could happen voluntarily.*

ERA didn’t pass because it wasn’t ratified by the required number of states. ERA was proposed as an ammendment to the constitution; which requires a certain percentage of the states to agree to the procedure. The amendment passed Congress on March 22, 1972, and was submitted to the legislatures of the states for ratification. Three-fourths(38) of the states must ratify it within seven years of the submission date in order for the amendment to be valid. As of March 1, 1978,35 states have ratified it 15 had not.

Below is a link to one of the Pro-Schafley people who fought the ERA’s ratification in Illinois. It’s very interesting.

http://131.156.59.13/ipo/1978/ii780410.html

Does anyone know whatever happened to Phyllis Schafley and/or Anita Bryant? Are they still around?

By SusieHomeMaker

August 23, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

The essence of any type of “affirmative action” is promoting less qualified individuals for the purpose of meeting a certain demographic quota, which I can’t support. The bottom line is that two wrongs can never make a right.

PLEASE!! A woman/black/hispanic/__(add demographic here) has to work Twice as hard as her male countrparts!! My last position I was told that I could have the promotion IF I also took on another department as well. (Of course I said yes, just for the promotion). However, the guy who replaced me after I moved on, only had ONE department to manage, not my two. It took two men to do the job that one person, me, had previously done; and both of them failed miserably and had to be replaced within 2 years. So When you say the things like you have above ^^, I have to wonder about where you’re getting your facts from. Hopefully not Fox News.

My overall track record with wives and girlfriends is positive.

I don’t know if that was supposed to be a joke, but it was too funny!!!!!

By B

August 23, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Before you pass final judgment on me, lozen, consider this: I’ve always been mindful about STDs in my life, always screening my partners carefully. When I began dating my current lady friend about 4 months ago, we both got tested before fooling around. She reported to me that all was fine, when in fact, it wasn’t. Because of this “miscommunication”, I’m now facing the possibility of a life-long problem (HSV-2). I haven’t had any symptoms, and repeated testing is negative so far, but I won’t be sure for about 6 months due to the nature of the testing.

In spite of all this, I’ve stuck by her side, and reassured her that my feelings haven’t changed toward her. Whatever the outcome of the testing, I take responsibility for my decision to be with her, and don’t blame her for the situation. If I do end up being a carrier, I will be responsible and alert any future partners well in advance. Most likely I will choose celibacy. I’m not claiming greatness here, lozen, but I don’t think I’m a Neanderthal either.

By B

August 23, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

It took two men to do the job that one person, me, had previously done; and both of them failed miserably and had to be replaced within 2 years. So When you say the things like you have above ^^, I have to wonder about where you’re getting your facts from. Hopefully not Fox News.

I’ve had the same experience at several jobs, Susie. After I left, they had to hire two people to cover for me. It always bit me in the butt a little for not getting more recognition when I was there. Even at Domino’s Pizza, I usually delivered twice as many pies as my nearest competitor by the end of the night. My personal record was 81 deliveries in one day, which may still be a record in Fulton County.

I respect your viewpoint that non-white, non-males may have to work harder to get the recognition. As a white male, I may never know what it’s really like being anything other. You have represented yourself well here on W2W, Susie, so I trust your opinion. I would have confidence to hire you in any capacity.

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Neanderthals were as intelligent as we! Why assume that less qualified people get special treatment with affirmative action? Where is the evidence for that? Are there good reasons for the separate physical requirments of men and women? We must ensure that all are treated fairly.Equality does not mean that all are the same but means treating all fairly.It doesn’t mean equality of income. Even with our welfare state , we will and should have various income levels. We have the safety net to help the ones on the bottom and we have the special tax on inheritance[ the so-called death tax]to help pay the bills.Our Nanny State and our freedoms go hand in hand. Our social contract demands and gives fairness to all. We should ever strive to be socially fair.

By B

August 23, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

My overall track record with wives and girlfriends is positive.

I don’t know if that was supposed to be a joke, but it was too funny!!!!!

Only one ex-wife, Susie. She used to call me the “World’s Cheapest Man” because of my tendency to delay pleasure now in order to save for the future. I noticed she didn’t complain, however, when she walked away with a very tidy sum after only three years of marriage. After we got divorced, she requested that I not contact her, which I have honored to this day, despite my strong wish to find her to be sure that everything turned out OK for her. To this day, I still have dreams about her…..

By Mara

August 23, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

‘ello, ‘ello, ‘ello all! beautiful day today :^)

If one of your relatives burned alive in a fire because a woman firefighter wasn’t strong enough to carry them to safety, would you think that was acceptable?

and if a male firefighter wasn’t strong enough either, what would he do? Probably exactly what a woman would do…call for backup.

I think it is natural for the man to be the physical protector of the woman in a relationship

which means it un-natural for a woman to physically protect a man…which, I suppose, means it’s UN-natural for women to be cops, soldiers, firefighters, or lifeguards. After all, one assumes that these ladies have relationships and they can’t ALL be gay.

Lily - another argument against the ERA was that it was unnecessary and slightly demeaning to women. After all, they said, the 14th Amendment already guarantees women equal rights…”nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” Some people felt that singling out women for an equality amendment made it sound like they weren’t ‘people’ per se.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 23, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

OK quick question B: Do you fear women? Not the agressive in your face kind; but the meek quiet types who hardly ever say anything, people like Mary Winkler, who just snapped one day “She said her husband criticized her for “the way I walk, what I eat, everything. It was just building up to this point. I was just tired of it. I guess I just got to a point and snapped.” Or people like Myra Morton.

Your thoughts on these women who just one day snapped and shot their husbands. Are there warning signs?

By Mara

August 23, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

I’ve always been mindful about STDs in my life, always screening my partners carefully. When I began dating my current lady friend about 4 months ago, we both got tested before fooling around…

TMI!!! TMI fer gawds sake!!!!!!

By lozen

August 23, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Equal Rights for Women is a MISTAKE. It should be called the Extra Responsibility Amendment for women. Loved this line… I would say Marriage and Children took care of the Extra Responsibility part for women already!

By Mara

August 23, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

oh, and Sunday will be the 87th anniversary of women being allowed to vote!! Hooray for the 19th Amendment to the Constitution!

By B

August 23, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

and if a male firefighter wasn’t strong enough either, what would he do? Probably exactly what a woman would do…call for backup.

Mara, the male firefighters have to prove they are strong enough to carry a person from a building down a ladder before they are hired. For whatever “affirmative action” reason, the ladies don’t have to meet the same physical standards. Ditto for the military. I’m not sure about the police force.

How do you justify the differing physical requirements?

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

That is the point,Mara!Still what is the evidence that affirmative action favors the unqualified? That is so silly! Uh oh, I forgot about Clarence Thomas!Schafly is still around doig her best as a reactionary.She is now with the ID movement.

By B

August 23, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Your thoughts on these women who just one day snapped and shot their husbands. Are there warning signs?

One of the warning signs is being interested in articles like the two you referenced, Susie. I’m getting worried about you. You’re not ready to snap, are you, dear? ; > }

I can definitely relate to a long build-up of pressure leading to an explosion, however. I walked away from a successful business two years ago after my girlfriend left me. I guess twenty years of being “mr. Compassionate” finally wore me down.

Mara—What does TMI mean? I hope you’re not mocking me for revealing something so personal. I’m devastated.

By B

August 23, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

I guess TMI = Too Much Info. Sorry. It’s a humbling experience, to say the least.

By SusieHomeMaker

August 23, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

One of the warning signs is being interested in articles like the two you referenced, Susie. I’m getting worried about you. You’re not ready to snap, are you, dear?

LMAO!! I’m divorced!!! If I was gonna snap, it would’ve happened a LONG time ago!!

By Mara

August 23, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

the male firefighters have to prove they are strong enough to carry a person from a building down a ladder before they are hired

well, woman firefighters have to prove they can carry people too. So? If you get a fire in the apartment of a 350 lb man, neither gender is likely to be able to carry them unaided…

as for how I would “justify” the differing standards…considering the hostility and active sabotage by many men toward the women in these fields, I assume the powers-that-be had to do something to even the playing field, even if that something was lowering the requirements so far that even a hostile evaluator couldn’t pretend that a woman “just couldn’t do it”.

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

So, the differing standards really mean nothing! Mara, thanks. Where is the evidence that affirmative acion if for the unqualified? That is a mere red herring! A reactionary one.

By B

August 23, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

LMAO!! I’m divorced!!! If I was gonna snap, it would’ve happened a LONG time ago!!

I know you’re divorced, Susie, and a single mom to boot. Did you say you have two kids or three? My deepest respect to you and any other single mother. My mom had five kids on her hands, and worked 2-3 jobs to keep us going. We all took on jobs as well to help.

I assume the powers-that-be had to do something to even the playing field, even if that something was lowering the requirements so far that even a hostile evaluator couldn’t pretend that a woman “just couldn’t do it”.

Mara—You were doing okay until you started defending different sets of standards required of job applicants based on sex. Again, two wrongs can never make a right.

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Mara, I think, means that they just don’t make a real difference.I haven’t noticed any complaints about women in those positions in fullfilling them. No one complains that any woman didn’t do her job. One just likes to complain about affirmative action without any real evidence against it.It is not a wrong for it to make matters fair.

By B

August 23, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

I often regret not having any children, but I’m really not sure if I could handle being a parent, anyway. Last month, my beloved Boo-Boo fell ill and passed away, and it nearly killed me. He lost the use of his hind legs and became incontinent, so I had to wipe his butt several times a day for him. He died in my arms. As he passed, I was bawling my eyes out, while my lady friend kept calling to him “We love you, Boo-Boo.” For that, I will always love her.

The funny thing is, I used to be somewhat puzzled when people were devastated by the loss of a pet. That is, until I lost my baby boy…

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

White men have traditionally been favored and hired by, guess who — other white men. Now that affirmative action gives others a chance, white men cry that those hired are not qualified. There aren’t two wrongs. Just one wrong — white male supremacy.

By B

August 23, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

I haven’t noticed any complaints about women in those positions in fullfilling them.

Apparently you don’t talk to many firefighters, morgan. I also question whether a lady police officer is at a disadvantage. I had several cops as chiropractic clients, who I would have to treat after fighting with “perps”. Based on their descriptions, I don’t imagine many ladies being able to fight with the crackheads.

By Archie

August 23, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

B, I kinda agree with Mara in that women can do other things and let’s face the fact that sometimes women are not as physically capable as men but maybe they can do other things better. In the fireman situation maybe they can organize calls better,etc. My issue with some women is that they don’t want to do other things to make up for the things they don’t well on a job. For example, I supervised a lady that wanted to work with the retarded males vs retarded females, well she was great except when the guys started acting out then she wanted a man to come in and handle the situation, well, of course the man resented it because he was managing his house and doing the chores but she did the chores but did not completely manage the house, well, I switched them. Of course she was upset but she got over it because it was not fair for him to come to the rescue for no extra pay. I do agree see Mara’s point and there are some things women do better that don’t involve running,lifting, or pushing. My wife would blow me away on the subject of history but I am a better math person and I am more logical but she can organize certain things in a way that would shame me. Women are given different physical standards but they still die in war and they do very well in other areas that even things out.

By Lily Toad

August 23, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

I know a female cop and she’s pretty tough. Once she said “I’d rather face a felon with a gun than a spider.”

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

That is anecdotal but interesting,B. We need more information on this. Could any other health professional or could a policeman or firefighther respond?

By B

August 23, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Women are given different physical standards but they still die in war and they do very well in other areas that even things out.

Maybe it’s just my chauvinism showing, but I wasn’t comfortable as an American when the Iraquis captured one of our lady soldiers. The thought of her being vulnerable to rape was unacceptable to me. I’m not saying that our guys aren’t just as vulnerable when captured, but I don’t want any ladies out there on the front line.

By morgan-lynn griggs lamberth

August 23, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

Some want to be there! Let them fight! Bless them.

By USinUK

August 24, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

*Maybe it’s just my chauvinism showing, but I wasn’t comfortable as an American when the Iraquis captured one of our lady soldiers. The thought of her being vulnerable to rape was unacceptable to me. I’m not saying that our guys aren’t just as vulnerable when captured, but I don’t want any ladies out there on the front line. *

B, again, I refer you to the Vermont Guardian article I cited in a post from yesterday … women have far more to fear from their colleagues as far as rape and assault are concerned than they have to fear from the Iraqis.

And, this is where I restate the point I made at the beginning of this discussion - that there are times when men NEED to be advocates. Assault and rape - both in the armed services and in society as a whole - needs to be condemned BY MEN. That includes removing the phrase “B**ch slap” from our vocabulary and condemning jokes about violence towards women the same way we condemn racial jokes (i.e., Dirty Sanchez).

By Mara

August 24, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

hey y’all. My last post from yesterday was a bit confused so thank all of you who tried to clarify what I was saying, morgan-lynn griggs lamberth, Lily Toad and even Archie. You guys did a great job of clarifying the point I was trying to make. My only excuse for it being so badly written was that it WAS quittin’ time and I was trying to get outta here :^)

USinUK - did you know that there were women soldiers in Iraq dying from dehydration because they wouldn’t consume liquids after 3 or 4 in the afternoon because a night or evening trip to the latrine was prime “hunting” time for male soldiers to assault them?

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/57/17327

By USinUK

August 24, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Mara - exactly - that’s what was in the Vermont Guardian article, as well.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

What do you women want? Why do you keep whining? Yeah, yeah, yeah women didn’t have equality 40 years ago but now you do! What do women want? That info about servicewomen is so totally disgusting. And, of course, servicewomen are denied emergency contraception by this administration as well. Not only is sexual assault more prevalent in the military than ever, if you’re raped you very well may end up pregnant because you can’t get anything to help you. This is why I like the idea of Hilary being prez more and more:

The Compassionate Care for Servicewomen Act (S.1800/H.R.2064), sponsored by Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) and Representative Michael Michaud (D-Maine), requires full access to emergency contraception for servicewomen at all U.S. military health care facilities around the world.

So here are a woman and a man who are advocates for women! This discussion on the blog this week has clarified some things for me. I like Obama very much but, as a woman who wants equality for my granddaughters and all females, I realize this week it’s gotta be Hilary. Thanks ladies and Net for your comments.

By B

August 24, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Assault and rape - both in the armed services and in society as a whole - needs to be condemned BY MEN. That includes removing the phrase “Bch slap” from our vocabulary and condemning jokes about violence towards women the same way we condemn racial jokes (i.e., Dirty Sanchez).

Once again, USinUK, every man I know loves women, protects women, and condemns violence toward women. Of course, I hang out primarily with hippies. Seems like the misogynists prefer rap and heavy metal music. It’s sad how the women soldiers were treated by their male counterparts in Iraq.

My last post from yesterday was a bit confused so thank all of you who tried to clarify what I was saying, morgan-lynn griggs lamberth, Lily Toad and even Archie.

I’m not so sure that Archie was agreeing with you yesterday, Mara. He referenced a job situation in which the male caretaker of handicapped adults was required to do part of the job of the female caretaker because she wasn’t physically strong enough. I think Archie’s POV is that we all can contribute in different, but valid ways. I can live with that, but can’t agree with “Equal pay for equal work” when equal work is not being done.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

…there are times when men NEED to be advocates. Assault and rape - both in the armed services and in society as a whole - needs to be condemned BY MEN. That includes removing the phrase “Bch slap” from our vocabulary and condemning jokes about violence towards women the same way we condemn racial jokes (i.e., Dirty Sanchez). So true and I’ve said this on this blog also. I don’t think the men who hang here have been ready to hear it with the exception of Net.

Ahh, here we are with this situation again. A perfect example of some of our “male advocates”. The man who claims he and all the men he knows love us, want to protect us, want us to have what we need. But it’s bull. This man has trashed women, our sexuality, our smell, our freedom to have several sexual partners on this very blog in the past. And of course he’s one of the “yes, but” ones. I’m all for _ BUT… And they can come up with some of the most ridiculous scenarios like the woman firefighter who couldn’t save my relative! This is the kind you really have to watch out for; much more dangerous than the outright pigs. Too bad we can’t warn the girlfriend.

By B

August 24, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

Too bad we can’t warn the girlfriend.

lozen—I think my lady friend would be smart enough to realize that you’ve chosen the bitter route in life, and would likely take your opinions with a grain of salt.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Just a little more good info from the NOW website: It took women 72 years of ceaseless campaigning to finally win the right to vote in 1920, not to mention ridicule, ostracism, abuse and imprisonment.

This Sunday, August 26, Women’s Equality Day, marks that anniversary. But we have a long haul before women are truly equal.
•On average, women only make $.77 to a man’s dollar. Could you use the extra 23 cents? •The US has no guaranteed medical leave for childbirth; we’re trailing 168 countries in the company of only Lesotho, Liberia, Papua New Guinea and Swaziland. •In 107 countries working women’s right to breastfeed is protected by law. In the US, no protection. •The US is near the bottom of the list — again — in our public support for quality childcare for children of working parents. •And our right to safe, accessible, legal abortion is threatened as never before. •And finally, women only make up 16 percent of our representatives in Congress. As we head toward change in power and politics in 2008, we need to be stronger than ever, educating and mobilizing voters around the issues that will be key to women in next year’s election.

Bitter? Maybe. I’ve known several men who like you and learned that lesson well. But I’m older, more experienced, and I have more insurance. Tawanda!

By Mara

August 24, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

B - I didn’t say anything about people agreeing with me, I was talking about them clarifying the point I was trying to make. I’m perfectly fine with him not concurring, but I am gratified that he at least understood my point…as badly written as it was.

I can live with that, but can’t agree with “Equal pay for equal work” when equal work is not being done

is the firefighter who mainly runs the pump-truck any less of a firefighter for seldom entering the burning building? Would they deserve less pay? How about the soldier that generally guides the ariel drones? Less pay for them than a combat infantryman? How about the cop that processes the arrestee’s? Less pay than the ones who do the arresting?

The gist that I get from your comments is that women just can’t do as much physically as men, so they should either not be in certain fields or should be content with not making as much as a male. A female firefighter who can’t carry a 200-lb man has no business being a firefighter, even though her regular assignment is managing hoses, communications, or crowd control. Nor should she expect to make as much as the male firefighter who does go into the flames…

By kimberly

August 24, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

This is the kind you really have to watch out for; much more dangerous than the outright pigs.

You totally nailed it Lozen! The ones who implore you to trust them because they actually care more about you than you care about yourself (uh-huh), will betray your trust so fast your head spins, and then blame you for making them do it! Better to go with the ones who wear their a—hole on their sleeves. At least you know what you’re getting with them. BTW, I’ve never thought you seemed bitter; just in touch with reality and much wiser than I. Thanks for being here.

By B

August 24, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Ok, I give up. All males are pigs, and I’m the worst of the bunch.

From my heart, I hope that you ladies find the peace and happiness you deserve.

By Scalia

August 24, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

I’m confused. How is a Dirty Sanchez violent? Smelly, but not violent.

Now donkey-punching is a whole different ballgame.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Kimberly, you seem very, very wise to me. Kimberly and Mara, you are the best! Nope, all males are not pigs. NetBanker is not a pig. But some of you are pigs and try to pretend you aren’t.

By Archie

August 24, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Assault and rape - both in the armed services and in society as a whole - needs to be condemned BY MEN.

Assault and rape have been condemned by MEN, that’s why there are severe penalties for such crimes. That statement does not make sense especially since most men don’t assault or rape. As for condemning jokes and phrases that demean women please tell women to do the same thing.

Also I did agree with Mara and I understood that was struggling to get her point out but she said enough. So a female firefighter can’t carry a 300 pound,well, if the male firefighter can let him do that part while the female sprays water or whatever else fireman do. In my example I changed the house location my female staff person and my male staff person because he could handle the clients when they acted out and she could work in the other group home where the clients did not act up. The situation ended up being equal but the point is you have to manage and not act ignorant. The female employee did not get what she wanted but situation ended up being equal and that’s another point that getting what you want is not the same thing as equal. I did not say the female employee wasn’t strong enough because another female had worked in that house and she handled her business and that’s another reason I agreed with Mara. This blog doesn’t allow for detailed explanations of every situation so you have to infer sometimes but really read the post. I think Archie’s POV is that we all can contribute in different, but valid ways. I can live with that, but can’t agree with “Equal pay for equal work” when equal work is not being done. B, there are male co-workers that I know of that aren’t doing equal work but getting paid and there is resentment but the situation is not being managed properly in my opinion. Just looking at qualifications is not the only way to view equal work. Also just about every comment I make on this blog about women I tell to my spouse and she agrees with me that some women here are a little too sensitive to criticism.

By B

August 24, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

kimberly—I do care deeply about you, and always will. Please don’t hate me. I pray for you.

By NetBanker

August 24, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Ok, I give up. All males are pigs Finally some serious truth around here! All men are pigs including myself. I may not seem like one here, but that’s because I feed at a different trough than hetero men. I’m also more of a mental pig than acutally saying anything out loud or acting on it.

Lastly, I do sympathize and empathize with what many of the women here experience and are discussing due to first hand experience with gay discrimination. There are many men who are uncomfortable being around openly gay men despite any lack of sexual innuendo or expressed interest. They seem to think that any man is desired by all gay men simply by virtue of having a pe nis. As if all hetero men desire every and all women by virtue of their having breasts.

Assault and rape - both in the armed services and in society as a whole - needs to be condemned BY MEN. I rather agree with Archie’s sentiment that men have condemned assualt and rape. Assualt and rape aren’t sexual, but about power and opportunity. In the absence of women those men who would assault or rape will turn on the perceived weakest man around. As women are perceived as weaker than men they become the target when present. Ask most any gay boy who experience Jr. High and High School.

By Archie

August 24, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Better to go with the ones who wear their a—hole on their sleeves. At least you know what you’re getting with them.

That’s not logical Kimberly. C’mon, if my spouse turns out to be a total female jerk I feel good knowing I went into the marriage based her kindness,good looks, smarts, and if I was fooled oh well, I will be hurt but I know I chose based on good stuff but if I pick someone that I know is a jerk well, why the heck would I complain about how they are? You learn things about yourself and your spouse over time and sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s bad. There’s nothing wrong with complaining but at least let’s use a good evaluation process on the front end. If there’s a rattlesnake in front of you do stand next to it or do you stand next to a German shepherd that’s wagging his tail? The snake will bite you and you know that but the dog might or might not bite you. I will chose to go with the dog. SusieH probably understands what I said a few days ago when I said good morning is not a pass. This is not directed at Kimberly but some ladies need to take responsibility for just choosing the wrong guy!!! If your evaluation process is screwed up your relationship will not turn out right. My spouse even gives me examples of how women choose men. I will put it out there later.

By B

August 24, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

kimberly/lozen/Mara—The more I think about it, you should hate me. I’ve been a jerk, and there’s no good excuse for that.

Best wishes to all the bloggers.

By Mara

August 24, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

with Women’s Day coming up on Sunday there’re a lot of articles out about the state of womens rights today. I found one particularly amusing (and at the same time, appalling!)

excerpt -

“…we continue our time-honored tradition, celebrating this day by announcing the cherished Equal Rites Awards to those who have labored over the last 12 months to set back the cause of women.”

…Justice Anthony Kennedy - whose opinion restricting abortions rested on the retro notion that women needed to be protected from “regret,” “grief” and “sorrow,” even if it meant protecting them from their rights.”

…District Judge Bill Maddox - While sentencing a man on kiddie-porn charges, he opined: “It’s my understanding that most men are sexually attracted to young women … I mean women from the time they’re 1 all the way up until they’re 100.”

“…former surgeon general, Richard Carmona - belatedly confessed to toeing the White House line on abstinence-only education while knowing it was bunk.”

“…Money magazine - for its financial advice on how to close the pay gap: Marry rich.”

…Mattel - The folks who brought you Barbie are collaborating on a new line of makeup: for 6- to 9-year-olds

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2003850952_goodman24.html

By Mara

August 24, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

did anyone hear about the commentsmade the other night by good ol’ boy and right-wing NRA nut-job Ted Nugent? The “he-man animal hunter” and “protector of women”?

At a recent stop on his “Love Grenade 2007 Shrapnel Tour,” rocker Ted Nugent tossed some rhetorical bombs at a few top Democrats, and possible future gubernatorial candidate joked about executing the most prominent African American politician in a generation.

“Obama, he’s a piece of sh-t, and I told him to suck on my machine gun,” Nugent, a prominent pro-gun advocate, paced the stage with a machine gun in each hand as the crowd eggs on his increasingly vulgar tirades.

“Hey Hillary, you might want to ride one of these into the sunset you worthless b—-ch,” Nugent said, brandishing his weapons.

He also went after Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA), suggesting she, too, might like to “suck on my machine gun.” Nugent’s tirade against California’s other Democratic Senator, Diane Feinstein, is too garbled to transcribe, but one can hear Nugent call her a “wh—e.”

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/InobscenitylacedtiradeTedNugentjokes0824.html

How many men will stand up and say “Diane Feinstein is NOT a wh—-e” and that suggesting that anyone, be it man or woman, might want to “suck on a machine gun” is un-acceptable in a decent society? One could quite easily find the threat of violence there, what with him parading around stage brandishing a couple machine guns. I wonder if his threatening language toward the ex-first lady, current senators, and presidential candidates means the Secret Service might pay him a visit. Probably not…

By NetBanker

August 24, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

a new line of makeup: for 6- to 9-year-olds Are you kidding me?! That’s messed up!!

By Scalia

August 24, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Some men are cowards, and are afraid to stand up for that kind of stuff. They don’t want to be viewed as less of a man, and want to maintain their masculity around other men.

That happens with some gay men around straight men. I have watched some gay men “butch up” because they are around straight men.

By Jack

August 24, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Hi Sweetness, Lozen & Mara. If I happened across a rape, no need to call the police. Coroner or ambulance maybe. Hope all is well. Think about ya and miss the blog. :)

By Lily Toad

August 24, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Love match: Anne Coulter and Ted Nugent

By Archie

August 24, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

- A woman set fire to her ex-husband’s penis as he sat naked watching television and drinking vodka, Moscow police said Wednesday. Asked if the man would make a full recovery, a police spokeswoman said it was “difficult to predict.” The attack climaxed three years of acrimonious enforced co-habitation. The couple divorced three years ago but continued to share a small flat, something common in Russia where property costs are very high. “It was monstrously painful,” the wounded ex-husband told Tvoi Den newspaper. “I was burning like a torch. I don’t know what I did to deserve this.”

I want to see if the gender morality police will be sympathetic with this guy.

Assualt and rape aren’t sexual, but about power and opportunity. In the absence of women those men who would assault or rape will turn on the perceived weakest man around. As women are perceived as weaker than men they become the target when present. Yep,Netbanker everything I have read says your statements are true. I said something similar on this very blog.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

Well, I’ve been thinking about “women making bad choices” around the men we get involved with. There are so many factors in that. We’re effected by the relationship we see our parents have whether it’s good or bad. If our dads are as-es, we may always be attracted to as-es; we’ll be comfortable with as-s. If our parents don’t love us and don’t treat us well, we’ll tend to choose partners who don’t love us and don’t treat us well. If our parents have a bad relationship, we’ll be comfortable in a bad relationship. Little girls are taught from birth that we are nothing without a male. Some of us now see the fallacy in that but a lot of us don’t. Then we learn that we’re responsible for relationships and if there are problems, it’s always our fault. We learn we can save men who have problems, we can change them if we love them enough and understand them enough and if we can’t change them, there’s something wrong with us not them. Remember Beauty and the Beast? We start having people ask from about the age of 2 or 3, “do you have a little boyfriend?” We grow up hearing about Sleeping Beauty and her evil stepmother,(other women are out to get you and you must have a prince to wake you up and bring you to life with his kiss). Then there’s Cinderella who waits for her prince to come to save her from the evil stepmother and stepsisters. (other women are out to get you and you must have a prince to save you. Can anybody think of a traditional children’s story in which the heroine saves herself or is saved by another female?) And The Little Mermaid who will suffer great pain to become human with legs and give up her underwater world and family and friends, so she can be with her true love. We learn we are the guilty and potentially evil daughters of Eve, the woman who brought destruction to us all and got us kicked out of paradise. No matter how hard we try, and I’ve seen many religious women try desperately, we will never be Jesus; we just don’t have the right equipment. We live in a world where all the laws and rules have been made by men to serve their interests, not those of women and children. Yes, men have made laws against rape and assault, but you never noticed how many loop holes there are in those laws? Most aware women have. Yes, we’ve fought since the late 1800’s in this country to have equality. That’s such a short time compared to the thousands of years of patriarchy, the millions of mysogynist pages in literature including our “holy book” and the rest of the religious trip that tries so hard to keep women in our place, prevent us from experiencing our sexuality, and pull things out of the bible like “women should not speak in the church” that frighten religious women into submission. Some of us just broke out of our Procrustean bed (thanks totally to the feminist movement in my case) a short 30-40 years ago. Many females in other countries, and in less educated families here in the US, are still being taught those things; nothing has changed for some people. 40 years ago our mothers and grandmothers had very few choices. Now suddenly we’re supposed to make good choices all the time? I think expectations there are a little unrealistic.

Lyrazel, many high school and college women don’t call themselves feminists because they say they’re afraid boys won’t like them!

By Stringent

August 24, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Colored glasses make you sound like a complete whiner.

Widdle child needs her blanky.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Sorry Archie, don’t have enough information on the Russian case to make any kind of judgment there.

By JokesOn

August 24, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Stringent,

Even a siple movie like “The Breakfast Club” has a more accurate perspective regarding ‘its tough all over’ than (most of) this group.

A bunch of self-made-victims that have no personal experience of real evil and torment. Just a bunch of “what ifs…” and “I reads…” from armchairs (or PCs) in their air conditioned homes.

By JokesOn

August 24, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Stringent,

Even a simple movie like “The Breakfast Club” has a more accurate perspective regarding ‘its tough all over’ than (most of) this group.

A bunch of self-made-victims that have no personal experience of real evil and torment. Just a bunch of “what ifs…” and “I reads…” from armchairs (or PCs) in their air conditioned homes.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

Stringent, who you talkin’ too? You talkin’ to me? If so, you’re a sniveling coward who won’t even use his usual blog name!

By lozen

August 24, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Jack, hey Jack. How you doing? Good to hear from you. We miss you and your stew.

By Lily Toad

August 24, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Lozen, well said. I’m sick of hearing conservatives blame people for bad choices. It amazes me how so many women, not just young ones, reject the feminist label. For instance, my mother, denies being a feminist even though my sisters and I were raised to think for ourselves, get educated so we can support ourselves and not rely on a man, and to stand up for what we believe in.

Who on this blog considers herself/himself a feminist?

By Stringent

August 24, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Stringent, who you talkin’ too? You talkin’ to me? If so, you’re a sniveling coward who won’t even use his usual blog name!

That was my first post. I have a friend that said that when I have time I need to check out the self-pitying kids on woman-to-woman. I did not believe her description of what you all sounded like, but sit corrected.

By the way, none of the college grads I know will profess feminism because they see a trend in not taking responsibility for their actions. They blame all others for them, no different than religious zealots.

I’m sick of hearing conservatives blame people for bad choices.

I guess you all have no control over yourselves or destiny. I pity you and I am a liberal.

By JokesOn

August 24, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

JokesOn,

Stringent: Give up. Your talking real life and logical here!

(Pssst: They need to believe what they say to justify the hate.)

By Anonymous

August 24, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

Who on this blog considers herself/himself a feminist?

Not me; I’m more interested in equality.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Now we have here the hyper defensive males who want to tell us (or is it just me?) how wrong we are and how we’ve just not seen things correctly, the way they know we should see things! One of them even assumes he knows exactly what we have experienced and what our lives have been like!

By NetBanker

August 24, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Cinderella who waits for her prince to come to save her from the evil stepmother and stepsisters. (other women are out to get you and you must have a prince to save you.) I never understood why Cinderella didn’t just poison the them. They were in an isolated chateau and hey, people get sick.

Little girls are taught from birth that we are nothing without a male…Then we learn that we’re responsible for relationships and if there are problems, it’s always our fault. We learn we can save men who have problems, we can change them if we love them enough and understand them enough… Lozen makes some very good points here about inadvertent messages that are internalized and can affect one’s perceptions about how things should be later in life. Every Disney film is all “Happily ever after” and most ‘love story’ or ‘chick flicks’ end the same way. Rare is the film or story that is realistic and few are the films with heroines.

That poor Russian couple! I just can’t imagine being stuck living an ex for 3 years or longer. Kill me now!!

By B

August 24, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

A bunch of self-made-victims that have no personal experience of real evil and torment.

Hey JokesOn: Glad to hear from you. I do believe that some of the ladies here have faced bad times, so please don’t be too harsh.

So you know, I greatly appreciate your encouragement in the past.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

That was my first post. I have a friend that said that when I have time I need to check out the self-pitying kids on woman-to-woman. I did not believe her description of what you all sounded like, but sit corrected.

Ha, ha, ha. I know that’s the truth.

By the way, none of the college grads I know will profess feminism because they see a trend in not taking responsibility for their actions.

Then they do not know what feminism is. Probably listen to Limbaugh all the time.

By Stringent

August 24, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Now we have here the hyper defensive males who want to tell us (or is it just me?) how wrong we are and how we’ve just not seen things correctly, the way they know we should see things! One of them even assumes he knows exactly what we have experienced and what our lives have been like!

Female, thank you.

By Lily Toad

August 24, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Sure sign of insanity: changing blog names and then complimenting yourself under yet another blog name.

By Archie

August 24, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

How many men will stand up and say “Diane Feinstein is NOT a wh—-e” and that suggesting that anyone, be it man or woman, might want to “suck on a machine gun” is un-acceptable in a decent society? C’mon Mara, this is not a good example to make a point because I can ask how many women will stand up and say Obama is a piece of excrement? A few weeks ago I asked some women to stand up for Britney Spears and only Kimberly got the point. If you’re going to stand for something as an advocate then be consistent. If you’re going to call folk out then try hard to be consistent at this point it looks like pick and choose or whine-time. Also noone makes good choices all the time!!! but you have to acknowledge things when your evaluation process is screwed up. I have known guys that complained about the type of women they were dating and I told them they could get a different type of woman but they had to approach said woman. I can relate more to what SusieH had to say yesterday and I wish she would post today on this discussion because she has a certain perspective on this topic. As for loopholes in rape and assault laws those work against men as well because guys get the behinds beat as well, ask Netbanker more about his example of the supposed weaker man. Guys have been known to beat up another guy and get off light. As for rape we have just seen that a woman will lie. Ask the Duke boys.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

NetBanker, have one for me this evening to celebrate the weekend! You are so cool. Let’s rewrite all those old fairy tales and give them different endings. Cinderella poisons her evil stepmother and stepsisters, goes to Paris and becomes a famous courtesan. Sleeping Beauty finds a group of amazon women in the forest, they make the evil stepmother go into therapy and learn why she is so insecure, and stepmom and Sleeping Beauty become lesbian amazons. Mermaid says, “I would never give up my beautiful tail and fins to live up there. There are so many fish in the sea!” Why was it Beauty had to stay with the beast? I can’t remember. I wonder why the service women who died of dehydration didn’t just put on their guns, troop to the bathroom together, and shoot anybody who messed with them? “God, we couldn’t see in the dark and they grabbed us and we thought it was the enemy.” Why didn’t they just take a can/plastic bag into the tent with them at night? I’ve never been in the service so it’s easy for me to say, huh?

By JokesOn

August 24, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Hey JokesOn: Glad to hear from you. I do believe that some of the ladies here have faced bad times, so please don’t be too harsh.

You know as well as I that they are full of crap. Whiney little kids who might as well be screaming “I did not ask to be born! Its not fair!” My response is that “we did not ask you to be here either.”

Now they have no self control that they mocked guys about when discussing women wearing shear blouses (look at me!!!) to work. They are a part of that “old-white-man” machine without even knowing it. The same one you and I, either do or have, work for. “The Man” exists for all of us except the very-few priveledge.

Case in point: For instance, my mother, denies being a feminist even though my sisters and I were raised to think for ourselves, get educated so we can support ourselves and not rely on a man, and to stand up for what we believe in. Because she was trying to be balanced and not swing out of whack. She sees the bs in your whiney position and where it leads: perpetual (real and not) victim.

So you know, I greatly appreciate your encouragement in the past.

Thank you. But, any assistance provided was not by being dishonest and placating you, right?

By Lily Toad

August 24, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Archie, why don’t you ask the Duke boys why they hired black strippers in the first place? Why hasn’t anyone questioned this? Don’t you think this is just perpetuating the Southern tradition of white male supremacy over darker-skinned females?

By B

August 24, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

I have known guys that complained about the type of women they were dating and I told them they could get a different type of woman but they had to approach said woman.

Archie—I have to admit that I’ve been a sucker for the “Rescue Me” type of girls in the past. After spending a few hundred grand trying to “help” various ladies, I realized it’s a loser’s game.

Sure sign of insanity: changing blog names and then complimenting yourself under yet another blog name.

Lily, I plead guilty to the insanity charge, but JokesOn is his own man with his own opinions. I was just thanking him for his encouragement to me to focus on avoiding destructiveness, self- and otherwise. It’s easy to fall off track sometimes.

By B

August 24, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Thank you. But, any assistance provided was not by being dishonest and placating you, right?

No, it wasn’t comfortable to face the truth, but that’s the only thing that helps me in the long run.

Any tips on how I can break my obsession with kimberly?

By Archie

August 24, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

Some of the women reading this blog have sons so they can’t just take the woman’s word in a rape case and some of us men have daughters so we don’t just side with the man in a rape cases. I hope some of y’all stop whining so much and maybe seek counselling. When it’s time to get something improved you can’t be all the over the place philosophically you have to take a position and advocate that position logically. When C Deloris Tucker was trying to get rap music lyrics changed she didn’t a ton of support from women but she did get some support from women but not at the level she needed to get things done. Rather than intellectualize and whine get after some of these politicians that make laws and stay after them and stop making excuses when you have a choice. I used to have a stomach ache all the time to point that I went to the emergency room twice,well, that was 11 years ago. My evaluation of my diet was flawed, I didn’t know what I was doing, well, I changed my diet and no longer have stomach aches. I get picked at because I won’t eat certain things at certain times but I don’t care because I am not sick. We all do what we have been conditioned to do but we have to make a choice sometimes to try another way. I have had so many women talk to me about relationship problems especially in my twenties when I was available and they would find an excuse not to go out with the nice guy(me) but I didn’t wait around I simply found some good women. There are good women and good men out there just go get yourself one. In light of Juanita Bynum’s situation sometimes go awry but I think she went into her marriage based on good stuff, I mean the guy is a minister. No one’s evaluation process is perfect but if you know the guy/gal is an a-hole what you doing dealing with them???

By lozen

August 24, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

So much to say and so little time! This has been good discussion today, I learned a lot and made my voting decision for 2008! NetBanker, Mara, Kimberly, Lilytoad, USinUK, Jack hugs. Archie, you certainly have your blind spots, but so do I; we’re human. You try to discuss, you’re a gentlemen, I respect you although we disagree most of the time. And did you mean to say how many women would stand up and say Obama is NOT a piece of excrement? I’m not familiar with him being called that. As for Britney, I think the mania over film stars in this country is crazy. I don’t know Britney. I feel no obligation whatsoever to sap my energy defending a woman I don’t know, in a situation I know nothing (and don’t care to know anything) about. If you want to defend her, please knock yourself out.

Stringent, sorry. You sound like a man, and I’m sure you’ll take that as a compliment!

Lilytoad, we are used to Mr Multiple Personalities; yes it is insane but there doesn’t seem to be any way to chase dogs away on a blog. We try to ignore them but sometimes just can’t help getting caught up in the idiocy.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

You know as well as I that they are full of crap. Whiney little kids who might as well be screaming “I did not ask to be born! Its not fair!” My response is that “we did not ask you to be here either.” What “we” is that? Sounds like a bad case of projection to me. If you can’t grasp a political or psychological discussion of any depth why not just STFU.

By Archie

August 24, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Archie, why don’t you ask the Duke boys why they hired black strippers in the first place? Why hasn’t anyone questioned this? Don’t you think this is just perpetuating the Southern tradition of white male supremacy over darker-skinned females?

Lily,The Duke boys hired those girls because that’s what they wanted to see and no I don’t think it has anything to do with white supremacy otherwise you would have to tell black men they can’t visit white strip clubs. Why they hired black girls vs white girls did not matter as far as those guys being falsely accused of rape. From what I have seen black strip clubs are wilder at least that’s true here in South Carolina but I obviously do not know every club situation.

By lozen

August 24, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

When it’s time to get something improved you can’t be all the over the place philosophically you have to take a position and advocate that position logically. I have to say Archie, half the time I don’t know what you’re talking about. Who is all over the place philosophically …in your opinion? It seems to me you’re the illogical one comparing the women you associate with socially to the women on this blog. Do you really believe you’re always logical? You seem to believe women who discuss inequality, patriarchy, rape, etc. on this blog are attacking you personally. Why?