Woman to Woman

By kimberly

June 4, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Geez, Shaunti, lighten up! So your husband checked out my blouse. Who cares? I mean, are you so insecure in your marriage that you freak out at the thought of him sharing an elevator with a well-figured woman? Or perhaps, because YOU say so, I should wear baggy, unattractive clothing that neither fits nor flatters my own body, that I’ve worked through diet and exercise to maintain. Nevermind that I, too, might wish to join the millions of Americans who attracted a spouse in the workplace. If it will make YOU feel better, why don’t I just hide behind some hideously matronly size 12 pup tents, and grow old alone? The satisfaction of knowing YOUR husband never checked out MY form will keep me warm and happy in my golden years, mmmm-kay?

Geeeeezusss.

By Mara

June 4, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

I’m shocked that it’s the “conservative” that’s advocating making women legally responsible for what a man thinks. Harrassment legislation was instituted to protect women from what some men do. What’s next? Making it illegal to employ anyone considered “too attractive” because their co-workers can’t help but be distracted when they’re around?

And don’t most offices already have dress codes? Isn’t that why we have things like “casual Friday’s”, “Hawaii day” (loudest tropical garb), and “Sports day” (sports jerseys, t-shirts, etc.)? I agree with Diane on this. Just as a woman, if she feels harrassed, goes to her H.R. office and speaks with them about it, so should a man feel free to go in and express his discomfort with the attire of his female co-worker. If a guy walked around all day with his zipper undone or his shirt un-buttoned to the navel you can bet someone would say something about it being inappropriate for the office. Women wearing inappropriate clothing to the work should be held to the same standards. Not because of what people think but because most companies want to project a professional image…and unless you work in the fashion industy, that isn’t a micromini and strappy sandals.

By Chilao

June 4, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Personally, I could care less how much cleavage a woman may be showing. However, where I would lack control, as a leery-man unable to control myself(now, keep in mind if I actually WAS one), is a woman looking like a librarian or bookworm geek, preferably with glasses.

So women, if you need to wear glasses, be careful out there. LOL

Why, this one library I go to has a super-hot-babe there, she always dresses modestly, with wide/loose summer-skirt type skirts that fall well below the knees. But to see her checking books out for someone on the other side of the counter, wow! (this library has a square center place, with check-outs on both sides, so we are talking the view of the loose billowing skirt from behind). LMAO

In short, it is all in the mind of the viewer.

By GOB

June 4, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Companies could just start installing burka racks at every entrance. That way, no man would ever have to think about anything other than getting that TPS report in on time.

By NetBanker

June 4, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Hey kids! Happy Monday to all!

While I do not think that clothing should be added to the definition of workplace sexual harassment I understand Shaunti�s position to a point about inappropriate clothing being a distraction. In my own experiences of watching corporate America move from business dress to business casual there have been a few cases of people inappropriately dressed for work, but since business casual is the norm I have seen very few. �Wearing the latest style in a tight shirt, low-riding pants �and a thong that peeks out� in most work situations is inappropriate. The proper response is to counsel the employee about appropriateness of dress for the work environment and send them home to change. While there is no accounting for taste, most people know where to draw the line in what they wear to work. On those rare occasions where I have been asked about dress code for causal days at work my advise has been �If you wouldn�t wear it to a church picnic, don�t wear it to work.�

Totally off topic, but waaaay too funny to wait until Friday:

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=823359685&channel=823449204

By Bruce

June 4, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

I find it hard to believe that for years women complained about sexual harassment in the workplace until there were laws created to outlaw it. And I have no problem with the laws. But now that the laws they fought to get established are being used against them they are saying the same things men said back before the laws. “Geez, lighten up!” Can yoiu say I want my cake and eat it too?

By NetBanker

June 4, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

In the spirit of fairness shouldn�t this apply across the board? There are a couple of men in my office who wear tight pants and shirts that show off their tight buns, muscular chests, and pumped up arms. It�s definitely distracting for me and a few of the women I work with…I know this because we’ve talked about it. On the complete other side of the coin what about the overweight people whose clothing ends up too tight just because of their size? Or the distractions of the extremely homely? Maybe everyone should have to wear burkas.

By kimberly

June 4, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

But now that the laws they fought to get established are being used against them they are saying the same things men said back before the laws. �Geez, lighten up!� Can yoiu say I want my cake and eat it too?

WTF are you talking about? Laws I “fought for” are being used against me? Wha? And suddenly I want cake? (Yuk.) Put the BONG down, dude. I had my share of inappropriate attention in the workplace, especially in my 20’s. Ninety-five percent of it was resolved to my satisfaction when I stood up for myself in a firm voice and a clear statement that I was not interested. But I can see how YOU would think someone else’s jack-a— behavior would be my fault. So nice to hear from you again.

By Mara

June 4, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Bruce - there’s a big difference between making it illegal to for you to grab your secretary’s a$$ and making it illegal for her to wear an attractive outfit, just in case it makes you think lewd thoughts about her. Actions and thoughts…see the difference? You control what you do, but you can’t control what other people think…

By Lyrazel

June 4, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

A young endowed woman straight out of high-school came to work bra-less. It was her first job. Her way of dress was improper for being at the counter position of sales so I asked her to wear one at work and she did. She worked 6 more years without incident. As a business owner I have had to address issues of clothing mainly for employee safety. I let my employees wear what they want for the most part because its a hot, noisy plant. Shorts and t-shirts and jeans are most of what is worn especially in summer. We do not allow neckties worn around the press or long necklaces and hair has to be tied back and secured and no sandals or open-toe shoes. I am more concerned with their welfare than style. There have been zero sexual harassment cases or incidents.

I think Shaunti has her knickers in a twist like many wives do when confronted with the fact where their husband works where there are younger, or attractive women who dress stylishly. Its difficult for some wives to believe their husbands don’t SEE as much as visiting wives do. Ask him what Becky was wearing and he would shrug and say: something purple. SHE might know its a tank top with the embroidered words Precious in jersey fabric, a suede micro miniskirt and 6 inch heels…

I take an issue with the fact Shaunti AGAIN degrades women in her column. In Shaunti’s world women must change, because women befuddle these helpless good men trying to do their jobs. I dont think Shaunti likes women. It is rare when has she anything good to say about women.

By Bruce

June 4, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

The problem is that not many women are like you Kimberly. The first thing alot of women do is hire a lawyer. I have been through the sexual harassment classes and came away feeling that if I said so much as “Good Morning” to a female employee I could be sued for sexual harassment. And the way things are now-a-days even if a male is found not guilty by a court his career is probably over, his wife has probably taken the kids and gone, and all he has left is a cardboard box under the “E” Street Bridge.

Again, I believe we need laws to protect from sexual harassment but as Net said, make it apply across the board.

By Bruce

June 4, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

That is so true Mara, but in all the classes I have been through even a look can be considered sexual harassment. The only person that has to think it is sexual harassment is the person that feels offended. Please notice I said “FEELS” because that is all it takes.

A person can take you to court for sexual harassment on just a feeling and nothing more. No words or gesters have to be exchanged. You can be standing in a hallway talking to an employee and another employee over hear the conversation and bring charges against you.

By kimberly

June 4, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

The first thing alot of women do is hire a lawyer.

B-llsh-t. Who? How many do YOU know? Go do a survey and get back to us with the numbers. (1) Have you ever incurred inappropriate comments at work, of a sexual nature? (Most, if not all women — and some men — will say yes.) (2) Did you run out and get a laywer? (Let us know your percentages, okay? And don’t forget to ask how much cash they had to lay out up front to actually have these “laws” enforced…)

Then go down to the “E-street bridge” and tell me if you see Clarence Thomas down there… D’OH!

By Rectilinear Propagation

June 4, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Bruce, just stop staring at women’s chests.

Seriously, is this even an issue? What office lets people dress the way Shaunti describes?

By NetBanker

June 4, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

What office lets people dress the way Shaunti describes? The business office of a strip club or massage parlor. That mode of dress probably IS the dress code.

By James

June 4, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

Not in great numbers, but I have seen a thong or two and it is distracting. And I’m part of that 18% not trying to look out of honor for God and my marriage. Sometimes form-fitting tops are too tight, and given that lots of office buildings are kept cool, one can’t help but see women’s chest saying, in effect, “hello!” Even when trying not too.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

If any of you ladies here are looking to succeed at work—or find a good husband—you might strongly consider saving the provocative dress/behaviors for your private times with your special man.

Let the man fall in love with you for the right reasons, and you might be surprised to learn that fairy tales CAN come true.

By Mara

June 4, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel - LOL @ “women befuddle these helpless good men trying to do their jobs”

which brings to mind a post from Andrew Sullivan a while back titled “Harlots” -

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/thedailydish/2007/week12/index.html

and the Feministe rebuttal of the issue -

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/22/christian-warriors-fighting-immodesty-one-guilt-inducing-erection-at-a-time/

By Mara

June 4, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

looks like James and DfS subscribe to the opinions from Andy’s letter writer…

“Many women would think guys are �all about� women who flaunt their bodies. I am here to attempt to speak for us Christian men fighting the fight for purity. Women like this disgust and frustrate me. They take advantage of something that God intended to be beautiful. They lure men away from that which they truly love. They make men like me fight and struggle, and cause many to fall”

see, ladies? It’s all our faults…ROTFLMAO!!!

By Lily Toad

June 4, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

And how does showing cleavage fit this definition: provocative dress sure seems to fit the EEOC definition of sexual harassment: �verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature [that] unreasonably interferes with an individual�s work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.�

Sexy dress creates a intimidating, hostile or offensive workplace? Breasts thrust in front of my face may interfere with my work, but I don’t get that just from walking by someone dressing sexily.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

see, ladies? It�s all our faults�ROTFLMAO!!!

If all you want to do is play the blame game, Mara, unfortunately, you’re going to “win” every time. Sure, men are pigs. I admit it freely. So what does that get you? A quick roll in the hay on Friday night and no one there to cut the grass on Saturday morning.

My suggestion to you is this: The male “attractive” force is there for the taking for you ladies. Ultimately, all men are P-whipped. Smart ladies recognize this and play the game fairly, and wisely. When we men feel as if we are being treated fairly, we will do anything at all for you, and with a smile on our faces. Part of the game is letting the man believe he is the most important person in the Universe to you. You don’t even have to do an especially good acting job. We’re easy.

By GOB

June 4, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

And I�m part of that 18% not trying to look out of honor for God and my marriage.

Anyone here listen to This American Life on NPR? They had a segment a few weeks ago about a guy that was raised as an evangelical christian, and was told that by even looking at a woman’s body was “committing adultery in his heart.” When he asked his pastor what he should do, he was told to go to sex addicts anonymous…the kid was 22 and had never had sex or even masturbated…high comedy.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Of course, in return, you have to have the courage to speak up and let your wants and desires be known as well—hopefully in a dignified, non-whiny way. Too many of y’all expect us to be mind readers.

Sometimes I almost wish I were a woman. Life would be easy.

By kimberly

June 4, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Yaaaaaawwwwwwnnnn!!

By JokesOn

June 4, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

What is the appropriate thing to do when you have a high level official (from congress) coming and the women, some professional and some student workers, DO have thongs showing as well as no bra’s?

There are a lot of photos going to be taken as well, making it even more of an issue.

We had a meeting regarding this very issue because the director was concerned that if these women were addressed specifically, that TOO could be terms for harassment.

Our solution was to send a company wide email asking to dress very professional which did work.

I still had the feeling that we had to address many women that do dress appropriately, and all the men that already do as well.

Once again ending in the majority of people having to suck it up for the few that are the issue.

If one drew gender lines on this issue, NONE of the guys would be applicable. Is this not significant?

By MrRogers

June 4, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By JokesOn

June 4, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

Sure, men are pigs. I admit it freely.

Isn’t that the equivalent of women are sluts?

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Isn�t that the equivalent of women are sluts?

Personally, I do think sexual energy is very pig/slut-like, JokesOn. At the same time, we have a “chivalrous” side to us as well, which is the part of us that allows us to get along once the sex is over with. Some of the ladies I’ve dated inspired that chivalrous side and got the best of me. Others only inspired the pig side.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

Did you make it to the RW show, JokesOn? It was like one big orgasm, wasn’t it? We were actually on the front row on the side of the stage. When Roger walked on the catwalk on the right side of the sstage, he was about 10 feet from us. He waved and spoke to us a few times.

Gotta say, it was even better than seeing “The Wall” in 1980.

By Lyrazel

June 4, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

Women should not wear breasts to the office otherwise the hapless men might staple their fingers to their spreadsheets…

However when breasts go sagging men don’t seem to have that ogling problem, somehow they stop looking after perky succumbs to gravity, also if that women be overweight she never suffers the ogling stapler jockeys. Perhaps that is why older women have a difficult time re-entering the workplace.

I will say I have seen women and men come to interviews looking like they dressed for a date and smelling like they just came out of an after-shave bottling plant but it is seldom a gorgeous gal with an impeccable figure nor the handsome studly dude; usually its someone who sadly does not have anything else to wear that is fancy enough for a job interview…someone who needs this job…someone expecting a man to interview her/him, too. Wink.

By JokesOn

June 4, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Personally, I do think sexual energy is very pig/slut-like, JokesOn.

It is just energy to me and if applied in a crass way can equate either, yet in different styles. But, you addressed this same notion.

It was like one big orgasm, wasn�t it? Damn good show, but short of orgasmic;)

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

The Libs here will be pleased to know that Roger Waters slammed Bush several times during the Pink Floyd show a couple of weeks ago. On the back of the big flying pink pig it said “Impeach Bush Now”. I laughed my a* off.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

HOW I WISH

HOW I WISH YOU WERE HERE

WE’RE JUST TWO LOST SOULS SWIMMIN’ IN A FISH BOWL

YEAR AFTER YEAR

.

RUNNIN’ OVER THE SAME OLD GROUND

WHAT HAVE WE FOUND

THE SAME OLD FEARS

WISH YOU WERE HERE

By JoAnne

June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Bruce, I’m with you altho I’m not really sure I understand your point in your first post when you say “Have their cake and eat it too.” They want to wear dresses and wear the pants, go to work and be given equal opportunity in hiring but quit when baby comes along and they change their mind and want to be home with junior. I think women want more and more and more but will never be happy because this is a man’s world. To wit, the number of angry women who regularly post here. Back in the 60s when me and my sisters fought for birth control so we could be liberated and not have to have babies if we chose not to, I look around me and say what a waste. Doesn’t anyone even bother to use it any more? I am for women and men feeling good about themselves and dressing nicely, plus you have to buy the clothes that are currently available, but I think a woman misuses her sexual power with cleavage on parade and such. A generously proportioned woman and I were talking in the break room and she said when you’re a large woman this is how clothes fit you; well aren’t there less low cut clothes? Why can’t one wear a tailored shirt underneath a jacket instead of a cut-to-there t-shirt. Maybe I’m a fuddy duddy. But it’s getting to be that some clothes look just the same as clothes to be worn in the privacy of one’s home and relationship; is it a turn on if they’re both the same? I also realize that each generation is horrified at how the world is going to Hades in a handbasket because of the behavior of the current culture.

By Dress For Success

June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Damn good show, but short of orgasmic;)

Well, my date claimed she had 5 orgasms during the show. That was good enough for me. ; > }

By Creed

June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

However when breasts go sagging men don�t seem to have that ogling problem, somehow they stop looking after perky succumbs to gravity, also if that women be overweight she never suffers the ogling stapler jockeys. Perhaps that is why older women have a difficult time re-entering the workplace.

Swing low, sweet chariot, I say…

By JokesOn

June 4, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Another discussion that cannot be had honestly.

Yawn is right.

Example: what would your impression be of a guy that wear his shirt 5 buttons down and a bush of chest-hair emerging?

My response is the same for cleavage: I really do not need to see that much of you - nor should have to. As Lyrazel pointed out, unless your 22ish, keep your stretch-marks to yourself - pleeeeeeze.

By kt1066

June 5, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this

This discussion of women’s clothing distracting men to the point of being harassment is yet more evidence for an observation. Straight men are too easily distracted, too fragile, too high-strung to work with anyone different from them. For example, women start attending military academies, and who gets their knickers in a wad? The men. Gays in the military? Upsets the straight men too much. Women in the office? Again, the straight men are the ones who are getting distracted by clothing and complaining. And they want to claim it’s the woman’s fault? “She is bothering me by being too attractive! Make her get ugly!” The answer is not to exclude women and gay men, but to send the easily disturbed straight men home to mind the house and associate with other straight men homemakers, and let women and gay men run the world, since they are the ones who seem to work well with others.

By catlady

June 5, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

I am glad if co-workers complain to their supervisors about inappropriate dress, and let the boss address it. From a man’s point of view, I don’t know how I’d feel. I have worked in one school where a new teacher came in dressed and made up like a streetwalker (short, short skirts, heels, see-through blouses, clown makeup). While the principal leered, the rest of us (male and female) just groaned and she quickly became the joke of the office, sort of like being “Cheneyed”. She even, at one point, accused the principal of harassment and he was fired! Now, 20 years later, she still comes to school dressed for streetwalking, but she doesn’t look nearly as good as she used to, so folks laugh when they see her. It’s almost like a community joke, with bets placed as to how far she will go next. Apparently none of her supervisors or friends has ever told her she needs to be a little more conservative in her dress/makeup at work, or she declined to follow their advice. They should have addressed it long ago, not for the harassment of the men (which may be), but because of the poor image it makes for the school. My son, who was six at the time, remembers her well and has commented on her appearance 20 years later! That would be the definition of “over the top”.

By Gentle G

June 5, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

There’s nothing HOTTER than a well dressed professional woman in a suit, with hair back and blouse buttoned! All that VH1 / MTV looking fashion has it’s place, but it’s not at work, unless you’re an artist, musician, entertainer etc. Save it for after work and weekends pleeease!

By Ann

June 5, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

It seems as though the workforce has forgotten what it means to be “decent.” Women today are confirming to provocative attire in the workplace more and more. As a woman, may I ask the question - “why do you want to go around with your chest out which looks like your butt on your chest.” It is provocative and very innappropriate in the office! Women are mirroring hollywood - “get what you want through sex.” As a young woman as well - I’m appalled by this behavior in the workplace. Many women PREFER to look like w******* now and it is disgusting !

By Mara

June 5, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

catlady - sort of like being �Cheneyed�

she was “accidently” shot in the face?! Huh? and that’s what passes as a joke around your office?

She even, at one point, accused the principal of harassment and he was fired!

You sound like you think she was a liar. If the principle was “leering” at her on her first day, how do you know he wasn’t harrassing her?

By JH

June 5, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Let’s be clear. If you are going to make the claim that it is inappropriate for a man to look at a women’s provocative dress, than it should also be inappropriate for a woman to dress provocatively. One is just as foolish as the next. The sexual harassment law went overboard. If a woman dresses in a way that warrants attention and a man looks, so be it. If you don�t want the attention don’t wear the outfit. If you wear the outfit and receive the attention, don’t complain. Simple.

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Mara, I was just thinking the same thing! I absolutely don’t believe for a second anyone gets fired for “leering.” Just doesn’t happen unless there’s other, tangible, documented inappropriate behavior, and there’s lots of leering going on! Still, that goes back to the “he can’t control himself so it’s her fault” argument which is, IMO, lame. Catlady has a point, though, regarding those whose wardrobe choices are “over the top.” They’re really only hurting themselves. That being said, you don’t have to be “over the top” for the men to stop and stare, as Gentle G pointed out. Jealous shrews will cluck their disapproving tongues about a woman who puts a tailored suit on a smokin’ bod as well. Human nature, I guess.

By JokesOn

June 5, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Seems the discussion, for the most part, is returning back to sanity: There is responsibility on BOTH sides.

By Richard

June 5, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Of course Diane Glass likes to dress scantilly. From her opinions, you can tell she’s just a w*******.

By nita

June 5, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

business casual is turning into club 9-5. Women are wearing the wrong clothes into the workplace. Some even have the nerve to wear “come and get me” heels as my dad used to call them. Anything over 3” is inappropriate in the work place. More than an inch of cleavage is too much. What happened to women showing the younger generation of young ladies what is and isn’t appropriate in all areas of life?

By Archie

June 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

My response to the topic question is yes. Shanti is right that a stare can be considered sexual harassment because I have been told that it could and I have been told that jokes or even a screensaver depending on how it looks can be considered harassment. What’s appropiate dress should be spelled out for both men and women and it is here at my workplace. Neither men or women get to do anything they want as far as dress goes and that’s the way it should be. I think Diane is just playing the devil’s advocate on this topic because Shanti makes a reasonable argument. This topic was also discussed yesterday on the Michael Baisden radio show. Some,some people simply need to be told how to dress and it doesn’t matter the gender but since we’re talking about the manner of dress of women then yes they should subjected to the same all-emcompassing definition of sexual harassment that men are.

By Mara

June 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

kimberly - you don�t have to be �over the top� for the men to stop and stare

too true! Though I agree that “professional” attire should be expected (and enforced) in the workplace, I’m really pretty shocked at how many posters seem to think that if a man behaves inappropriately at work, the fault must be what the woman is wearing. Like JH, for example.

“If a woman dresses in a way that warrants attention and a man looks, so be it”

Seems to me that there’s not much difference between saying someone who is being harrassed deserved it because she did wear that “short skirt, see-through top, and clown make-up” (and what did she expect, anyway…) and the woman who is “asking” to be raped when she goes out in that short skirt, heels, low cut blouse etc.

Maybe the topic question should be “Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?”

By Staceye

June 5, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

When I first moved to Atlanta from NYC, where the styles are totally different, I had a problem with women more so than men. I was harrassed by hating jealous women who made a stink about what I wore. My attire was never provocative. But since I was not a skinny woman with nothing to look at or a fat woman that no man would look at, it was a problem if my dress was fitted but long, if my slacks were fitted and not baggy and sloppy like the haters themselves. The problem was that they would not look good in the clothes that I wore so that made a stink about me. There were fat women who wore outfits that were so tight they looked like stuffed sausages. But no one said a thing. The skinny mini who wore a dress so short that if she sneezed you would see her underwear…and yet no one said a thing. But every thing that did not resemble a burka or a circus tent that I wore was a problem. I then had a male, gay supervisor tell me out of his own mouth….”because you are an attractive female with a nice figure it causes you to get attention from guys and that make the woman uncomfortable”. Now is it my fault that I work out and fit my clothing well…or that people actually look at me instead of away from me? NOPE! And in the end, the hating women lied and schemed enough to get me fired for so called violating the dress code. But I ended up with a better job, better pay….working for all men and no drama. Oh did I mention those hating @ss women are still ugly and get no attention. Jealousy sucks…doesn’t it? Just because a woman is attractive and does not cover up like a school marm does not mean she wants your husband! Chill out and stop being insecure.

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

�Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?�

Mara, of course we are! Isn’t that what at least half the men on here are trying to tell us? Hahaha! There were some real gems yesterday on how we are supposed to behave, and why men who want to be good and honorable are being denied that chance. The more things change, the more they stay the same. HAHAHA!

By Katie

June 5, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

This point may have already been made, but what about the women who are subjected to see other women wearing shirts that are far too low for the workplace, and low rider pants with thongs peeking out of the top? Personally, I have no desire to witness a wardrobe malfunction while I’m trying to make money.

It doesn’t bother me if you’re out for the night, or if you’re on your personal time, but at work I think it’s just indecent to prance around like you’re getting ready to go to a club. A women can look really cute without looking trashy. Whatever happened to a code of decency in the workplace? Asking women to dress respectfully is not Taliban-ish, and it’s disgusting that Diane compared the two. No one is asking women to go to work in a burka, they’re just asking women to come to work in an outfit that won’t produce a nip slip of Hollywood proportions, or so that no one in the office has to be treated to a plumber’s crack when she bends over the copier or to get her lunch from the fridge. It’s as simple as that.

Medium rise pants and a v-neck knit with a camisole underneath and a pair of cute heals is not matronly. In fact it’s subtly sexy. What’s the problem with that?

By willie

June 5, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

I know this has nothing to do with the text BUT

I just save 15% on my auto insurance

By Deborah S.

June 5, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

I am surprised that no one understands the concept of appropriate dress for a work environment. You (women) are not there for a photo spread for Hustler Magazine or Playboy. You are there to work. Cleavage and panti thongs are not appropriate wear for the office, regardless or not if you have a beautiful body. Period. I do not believe that any woman wearing inappropriate clothing is not VERY aware of the sexuality of it and the impact on the men in the office. To look at this in another way, if men came to work without shirts on and their pants’ waistbands hanging down to their knees (don’t the young boys who wear their pants like this understand it’s a sexual “come-on” started in prison?) so that their briefs show, would that be appropriate? Certainly not. Wear appropriate clothes to work, and if you’re going out to a party or bar hopping afterwards, bring something in to change into. And, believe me, I am NOT a conservative, but I have worked in small and large corporations and know, without question, if you want to be treated professionally, then dress professionally. Think about it!

By DBB

June 5, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

As a drone stuck in a cubicle farm, I encourage all babes to display as much c1eavage as possible.

I mean, we need SOMETHING to make the day more bareable!

By catlady

June 5, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Mara, sorry I was unclear. I meant her name is now used like Cheney’s to describe an event: Are you “Mary Smithing” today? Meaning looking like a trollop.

Yes, I am pretty sure the principal was doing more than leering. I did not mean to suggest that he was fired for leering. It was awful to watch him salivate and act like a 12 year old boy with a girlie magazine when she was around. But that a 6 year old would NOTICE and REMEMBER 20 years later says something about her attire.

I love to look at beautiful people. A handsome, well-dressed man with a beautiful, friendly smile is a joy to see. A handsome man, dressed in something like a speedo in the office, however, no matter how fine, would be inappropriate. Her appearance at school continues to be inappropriate, and makes the school look bad, not to mention her and her husband. Isn’t it better to be known for good work and kindness than as “Mary Smith, heh, heh, heh?”

By Archie

June 5, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Its difficult for some wives to believe their husbands don�t SEE as much as visiting wives do. Ask him what Becky was wearing and he would shrug and say: something purple.

That’s true Lyrazel. I can’t tell you what my female coworkers have on right now ask I write. I said yes to the topic question only because the rules on sexual harassment seem to be so all-encompassing and subjective. There’s a lady here that sent me a sexual joke, cusses out loud, and yet she got offended at my old screensaver. This person is more than ten years older than I am so there’s no underlying relationship. Since sexual harassment is about what offends then offensive dress should be included in the definition even though it’s going to be subjective and maybe profanity of a sexual nature should be included as well. The lady in the next cube uses the “f” out loud without any apology.

By catlady

June 5, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

DBB: “make the day more bareable”!? Is that a joke?

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

I don’t think anyone has a problem with people being asked by their managers to dress appropriately at work. Who is arguing against that?!!! Frankly, men who wear baggy shorts and sandals in summer and cross their legs man-style have grossed me out on numerous occasions. (Mandatory pedicures for men AND women who wear sandals, perhaps? Hmmm…) But is that an EEOC issue?

Shaunti’s column supports legal definitions for women based on arbitrary “moral” standards (another “conservative” in favor of more laws regulating personal behavior) and blames women instead of men for the bad behavior of men. Sorry I can’t get on board.

Then several men, and disturbingly, women, joined in the the “women are sl-ts” chorus. That some people want to sing louder with each verse of that tired old song says more about THEM than it does about women whose skirt may be a bit too short for the office. But that’s just my opinion.

By SUZAN

June 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

THESE TWO BIMBETTES ARE LIKE TWO REALLY BLOND CHEERLEADERS THAT ARE TRYING TO WRITE A SCHOOL NEWSPAPER. WHAT DITSEY SUBJECT MATTER

By JokesOn

June 5, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Maybe the topic question should be �Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?�

Maybe that is what you would like to make the discussion so that you have a point. If you stayed ON topic and were honest you might contribute to this constructively.

Dressing IS an action and DOES emulates your intended behavior. That concept seems to be lost on you.

Isn�t that what at least half the men on here are trying to tell us?

Less than half of the men posting, and more than half of the women posting would be accurate; but that does not fit your argument.

I read from your posts that women should be able to wear what ever they want to work with no disciplinary repercussions, no?

By Mara

June 5, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

“indecent”…LOL. Reminds me of an off color joke in which the punchline is the definition of “in decent”

By Archie

June 5, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I want to read the response to the actual topic question of all the women on this blog(Mara,Kimberly,Lyrazel,etc.) because thus far I haven’t seen a yea or nay, too much, just an argument against men or against women. My thing is the answer yes or no to the topic question and explain because we had a discussion about dress months ago and I was the one who started it. Thanks.

By Saher1979

June 5, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

Great site. Keep doing.

where are you google?

By Mara

June 5, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

I read from your posts that women should be able to wear what ever they want to work with no disciplinary repercussions, no?

No, Jokes, you didn’t. If you look back, I even stated that I supported wearing business appropriate dress. BUT…if the office manager or employer either doesn’t have, or doesn’t enforce, a dress code, then yes…she should be able to wear what she wants without having to deal with boorish idiots.

Maybe you only dress nicely when you want to get laid, but most women just want to look nice…an admittedly arbitrary and personal opinion. Btw, do you know what the word “emulate’ means? I’m guessing you meant to use the word “reflect”, no?

as for my point, since you need it explicitly set out for you, let me copy from my own post: “You control what you do, but you can�t control what other people think�” Just because you think a woman in a short skirt is saying “Take me NOW, you hot, studly man!” doesn’t mean she is, or that she even intended to make you believe she was. Nobody is saying you can’t, or don’t, think that. You are, however, trying to say that a woman shouldn’t be able to wear certain things because it makes you think it. Or so it seems.

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

I don’t recall saying anywhere that management has no right to prescribe guidelines for attire in the workplace. They certainly do, and I hope they use it. My issue, frankly, is with women like Shaunti who have nothing better to fret and complain about than what MEN think of what a woman is wearing, and then assign blame, as Mara points out, to the woman. And if you read her column, that is indeed the gist of it. I mean, did we solve all the other problems in the world, and now we’re down to this connundrum? Geez. Get a life, people.

By Mara

June 5, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Archie - I say “no”, provocative dress should NOT be included in context of sexual harrassment. As kimberly said earlier, “provocative” is in the eye of the beholder. Some people even find the “mystery” of a well-covered woman provacative…

By Mara

June 5, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

kimberly - “My issue, frankly, is with women like Shaunti who have nothing better to fret and complain about than what MEN think of what a woman is wearing, and then assign blame…to the woman”

you said it, sister!

By Brett "the hitman" Hart

June 5, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Do they have burka porn?

Hey if a babe is gonna get mad at me for looking at her rack then she should cover it up. Women where tight clothing and revealing tops because they want people to look. You can glance man just don’t stare like you have never seen it before and your fine. Any woman worth a damn that did not like you looking would say so any how. There is a huge leap from checking a broad out and drooling and stareing or pulling you meat out on her.

By RH

June 5, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

The problem facing all of the country is that the majority of the population (all races and sexes) are a bunch of idiots. Most people on this board fall right into that category.

By Jack

June 5, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Sorry ladies but I do think that all women should have to wear appropriate clothing in the workplace. It should not be allowed for a woman to dress like she is about to go partying with her girlfriends at some bar or nightclub. Skin tight clothes, short mini shirts, low rider jeans, tight shirts should not be allowed. It only invites problems. Sorry but I do think a womans dress and how she acts is a product of the type of man she attracts, the type of friends she attracts, the type of problems she has. I agree 100% that a man should respect women but sometimes by the way she dresses, it commands anything but respect from a man. Sorry but the way a woman dresses, she can easily send the wrong message. She should not wear something that shows her thongs or tatoo on the small of her back when she sits or bends over, she should not wear loose fitting shirts with no bra or loose fitting shirts with loose fitting bras that show it all when she bends over. The way you dress can invite the bad and the good so be careful. Some guys say that a girl deserves to be treated like crap or like a w******* because of the way she dresses and presents herself, is that right to feel that way? no.. but it is what it is……..Dress appropriatly because its not fair for men when you dress like a single woman on the prowl….

By Mara

June 5, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

“Women where tight clothing and revealing tops because they want people to look”

Thank goodness we women have a man to tell us why we do things. We obviously don’t know as much about it as he does.

By RH

June 5, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

Okay Mara, then we can set specific parameters on what is considered provocative in the workplace, so there is no confusion that over 50% of a man or woman’s cleavage is hanging out is considered provocative. No under garments can be visible, etc. etc.

Quit making it some complicated. Take the word provocative away and set the stupid parameters.

What a thought!

By war eagle

June 5, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

business attire is just that. You should not come in a strappie or a tank top if you are a Dolly Parton type person. You are there for business and business only-go sow your oats after work. If you dress too provacatively, YOU should be reported to HR.

By GOB

June 5, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Dress appropriatly because its not fair for men when you dress like a single woman on the prowl�.

That is so lame. I am a man who happens to work in a high school. i would guess that what i see on a daily basis is much worse than most on here. To say that it isnt fair to the man is such a cop-out. Men have the ability control themselves just like women do.

By RH

June 5, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Normally, the stupidity of a person takes care of itself over time. Those who dress that way at work end up not working at that place for long. Those who misbehave or offend others by their actions, words, looks, etc. do not last very long.

By Mara

June 5, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

it’s interesting that the majority seems to be debating what women should or should not be able to wear to the office. (IMO A woman can wear anything the dress code doesn’t prohibit) THAT isn’t the question though. Nor is it whether men should be expected to control themselves no matter what the woman wears.

The question is whether it should be actionable as harrassment for a woman to wear something her coworkers find…inappropriate. I personally find tight jeans to be quite distracting. So should I be able to file a harrassment claim because I can’t concentrate around guys in tight jeans? Should obvious “packages” be grounds for me to complain because it just makes me too “hot” and I can’t get any work done? Is that their fault, or mine?

By Jack

June 5, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Mr. GOB; I certainly hope and pray that as a school teacher, one would be able to control their selves. We are not talking about a adolesent or teenager or child in a school setting. We are talking about adults in a professional working environment. It is expected for a adolesent or teenager to dress inappropriatly and often times without parental knowledge that they dress like that. ANYONE that is an adult and would even look at a juvenile inappropriatly should be put in prison with the electric chair on standby. We are talking about a full grown responsible adult that chooses to dress in a provacative, inappropriate manner to a professional workplace. Many times people dress that way to gain attention, because they think they look good dress like that or because it makes them feel younger than they are without realizing the consequences or message that it sends. Mr. GOB the main point is this: their should be a dress code for all companies and it should be enforced. Face reality, men are sexual creatures and are easily tempted, I dont care if you are a christian man or a preacher, your still a man. The difference between a worldly man and a christain man is that the christian man asks Jesus for the ability to overcome temptation and the manly fleshy things of the world. Let me repeat myself, ANY man that looks at a girl under 21yrs old should be put in prison with the electric chair on standby because he is a sick demented person. Mr. GOB your blog is a huge difference than adults in a adult workplace… Also we are not talking about a job where juveniles work at either. We are talking about full grown women that are over 21yrs of age.

By BlueMoon

June 5, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

For all of you angry women out there… wearing clothes is an action and should be as punishable as any action a man makes in the workplace. Using over the top arguments only makes you look ignorant and makes it look to other men that you only want to have your cake and eat it too.

I’ve seen too many men lose their jobs because of a “look” or smile or what most would call a friendly exchange. “Good morning”, “how are you”. So for women to get on here and say that men don’t lose their jobs over things like that are completely ignorant. But saying it doesn’t happen defends your argument I guess. But that goes back to the “cake” theory.

There is nothing wrong with being stylish and dressing sharp but when you wear see thru clothes, thongs above the pants and blouses that fall below the bust line that is completely unprofessional and should be as punishable as the mens actions.

Just asking that you look at the whole picture. What’s wrong with “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander?” God forbid we actually enforce this law equally. Fire a few women for not complying to a dress code or standards and then we’ll see what happens.

By Jack

June 5, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Also Mr. GOB, I do not know about you but it seems that more women in todays time are sleeping with their students than men teachers are… ummmmmmmmmmmmm….. i wonder why that is? I watch the news every night and on my tv it reports more women messing around with juveniles then men are…. For instance what about that really goodlooking blonde teacher that dressed inappropriatly to school that was married and a part time wwf wrestling girl… ummmm…. interesting…..

By Mara

June 5, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

war eagle - *If you dress too provacatively, YOU should be reported to HR”

Hear, hear!!! Not as a harrassment issue, as a dress code issue.

GOB - Men have the ability control themselves just like women do

not according to most of the posts today…

By GOB

June 5, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Jack - You are proving my point for me. If work can get done in a school setting with all of the inappropriateness in dress going on, surely adults have the capacity to, well, be adults. If you have a problem with what someone is wearing, why not be an adult and talk to them about it, or if that makes you uncomfortable, talk to their manager.

Also Jack, have you ever worked for a company that DIDNT have a dress code? The only way that it can be enforced is if it is brought to someone with the authority to do so. Or would you prefer that HR make daily rounds to check for dress code violations.

In reality, there are some easy fixes for this. Be an adult. I know that is a foreign concept to many, but it really does solve a lot of problems.

The difference between a worldly man and a christain man is that the christian man asks Jesus for the ability to overcome temptation and the manly fleshy things of the world.

I guess i just dont feel the need to resort to ghost stories to keep me from doing immoral or unethical things. But hey, to each his own…

By GOB

June 5, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

I�ve seen too many men lose their jobs because of a �look� or smile or what most would call a friendly exchange. �Good morning�, �how are you�.

Can you provide a single example of a man losing his job because he said “good morning” to a woman? Or for smiling? Just one. Should be easy right?

By RH

June 5, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Mara, unfortunetely it is the intent behind the clothing that is the problem and also the perception of the person who is offended. If you dress provacatively at work an their is a sexual overtone to it, such as your thong hanging out, your breasts falling out of the top, no bra, see through clothes, etc., all of which could be “perceived” as sexual harassment. All of it could be perceived, right or wrong, as a sexual pass. If a woman comes to work half nude and sticks their a$$ or boobs in my face, I could see it as making a pass at me. I could offended by this. I might be attracted to it and see it as an invitation and try to come on to that person, who then turns me in for sexual harrassment. This is why we have dress codes, etc. So there is no confusion or misperceptions. Get it?

By Archie

June 5, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Archie - I say �no�, provocative dress should NOT be included in context of sexual harrassment. As kimberly said earlier, �provocative� is in the eye of the beholder.

First of all, thanks Mara for answering the topic question. I hope I don’t make you mad but I thought my screensaver was in the eye of the beholder. The men liked it but one cussing-woman didn’t so I deleted it entirely. I mean is sexual harassment just for women and in a few very extreme cases, men? I have not even addressed whether men can control themselves because that’s not the question. Can some woman other than Mara answer the topic question? Thanks.

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

The question is whether it should be actionable as harrassment for a woman to wear something her coworkers find�inappropriate. I personally find tight jeans to be quite distracting. So should I be able to file a harrassment claim because I can�t concentrate around guys in tight jeans? … Is that their fault, or mine?

Mara, apparently we are talking to a brick wall today. They all want to make the discussion about something else — specifically, what bad girls we must be. WhatEVERRR….

Catch ya on the flip side! {:->

By Jack

June 5, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Mr. GOB, once again you cannot compare working in a school as a teacher with half dressed underage juvenile girls with a professional work place with adults. I have a wife with 4 daughters, i love women, i respect women, i am definatly all for womens rights and for equal job position and pay for both men and women. However there is still alot of double standards in the workplace. Men often get fired for inappropriate looks, stares or comments but yet women can dress like they are going to a dance club on a Saturday night. I honestly think that there are times when a man is fired unjustly for sexual harrasement, however sexual harrasment laws are very much needed in todays sick, out of control society that we live in. If we are going to enforce sexual harrasment than we should also enforce a dress code for both men and women. Also Mr. GOB i think we should change the law where all public schools makes there students wear a uniform. Why do you think so many private schools make there kids wear a uniform?

By lozen

June 5, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Shaunti never ceases to amaze me! But what if the woman is wearing the latest style in a tight shirt, low-riding pants �and a thong that peeks out when she sits at her desk? We all know most women do dress this way at work, don’t me? Jeez!

By CD

June 5, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

RH - I wish that statement were true. However, many times upper management (especially in small companies) overlook this sort of behavior. More often than you probably know.

By Mara

June 5, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

“This is why we have dress codes, etc. So there is no confusion or misperceptions. Get it?”

that’s why I agree that offices should have and enforce dress codes…do YOU “get it”?

All of it could be perceived, right or wrong, as a sexual pass and I’d like to hear that one being reported.

“Well she was standing there, with her back to me, reading a file. Right there in her peep-toe pumps. In front of God, and everyone! I could tell she wanted to have sex with me, after all, she wouldn’t have worn those seamed stockings if she didn’t!”

“What exactly did she do?”

“She made a pass at me…didn’t you hear me?! She stood there doing her work wearing those shoes, and that skirt…and those silky stockings….and I feel so violated!”

“But did she do anything?”

“I saw her…(gasp)…cleavage when I walked by and glanced down her shirt! She practically shoved them in my face! And then…then…I saw…her bra strap slide down!!! She made a sexual pass at me! You got to do something!”

what a tool…

By lozen

June 5, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

I want one person to show me proof that some man has had to suffer a suit because he looked at someone, or said “good morning” or smiled! Just one case guys. Talk about “over the top.”

By GOB

June 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Also Mr. GOB i think we should change the law where all public schools makes there students wear a uniform. Why do you think so many private schools make there kids wear a uniform?

You mean aside from the branding that the schools get everyday before and after school when those kids spread out all over the city to go home?

Many studies have shown that uniforms in school do not effect student behavior. And if it is so that the kids and teachers can concentrate, they wouldnt have all of the girls wearing fairly short skirts. Uniforms in private schools are as much about tradition as anything else.

Also, who do you propose pays for the school uniforms that are now mandatory? In public schools, you cant require the parents to pay.

By lozen

June 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

GOB we’re on the same page here but I didn’t see your comment until after I said the same thing!

By GOB

June 5, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

If we are going to enforce sexual harrasment than we should also enforce a dress code for both men and women.

Does this mean that you think the government should be enforcing dress codes at work? They are the ones who enforce the sexual harassment laws, so to make sure everything is fair and consistent…

By RH

June 5, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Mara, that is exactly what would reward a million dollar lawsuit……then could move to possible violation of a protected group based on sex if nothing was done about it. If the male was let go after trying to sue for sexual harassment, he could probably show he was discriminated against based on his sex and a double standard exist in the workplace. Even more money….especially, if he had already filed a formal complaint to a supervisor about the issue, which is required to start a sexual harrassment case.

If you can get sued for sexual harassment for telling a sexually overtone joke in front of a bunch of people, you can damn sure get sued for showing your a$$ in the workplace.

By kimberly

June 5, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Lozen, I’m sure that nice gentleman will provide examples. After all, he said he’s seen “too many” men lose their jobs over such things. Surely he won’t abandon their cause for justice now!

Hey, do you remember the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings? Boy, they showed that little such & such, didn’t they? Ms. Hill didn’t even want to come to Washington, but they subpeona’d her self-righteous butt and forced her to answer a bunch of humiliating questions under oath and in front of the whole country. Then they said, “Eh…. we’ll take the man’s word for it,” and put him in charge of appointing future presidents. That’ll teach THAT bizzatch to open her mouth, won’t it? We should all learn from her mistake.

By Jack

June 5, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Lozen and GOB: I really do know a man who was fired for staring at a woman and he didnt even stare at her. He and I worked together and was working for a huge company here in Georgia, in a building that was about 15 stories with a cafeteria on the bottom floor with many food vendors in it. The woman was about 40yrs old, he was I think about 27yrs old at the time. She said he followed her around the cafeteria one day and kept staring at her, so they fired him before they even did a investigation or notified human resources. He never even laid eyes on her before and didnt know her. The head center manager and the rent a cop security guys took him down to the cafeteria, had the woman come down and buy a coke so he could see who his accuser was. He said she was wearing a pair of skin tight jeans and tried to look much younger than what she was. He hired a lawyer and when the papers was served to the company, he got his job back, a pay raise, a letter of apology and the manager that fired him was fired. So yes it does happen………

By Mara

June 5, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Archie - no offense taken. I don’t mind that people may have an opinion that’s different than mine. I may not agree, but I certainly don’t take it personally…until they start being jerks about it. At that point I tend to get snippy, as seen by my 3:03 post :^)

all y’all…I’m outta here. Love to my blog buds!

By BlueMoon

June 5, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

LOZEN, MARA and GOB-

Please read the paragraph please. I didn’t say the men had suits filed against them I said they lost their jobs. And there is no way I’m giving out names on this forum BUT I will give a description. 3 of the cases happened with the same company - a Fortune500 computer company based out of California. No leering, no touching, no harsh words - just the womans perception.

And I know I’m asking you to be objective which seems to be stretch for you but I’ll give it a shot anyway.

Do you really believe that ALL women are good people? If you answered logically and said no then you also realize that fraction of women will use advantages they have (as will men) to get things they want. Are a lot of these people logical? No, of course not and neither are their actions but it doesn’t keep it from happening.

Now on my part, I will admit I haven’t seen it happen in the last 4 years so hopefully managers are figuring out how to deal with these messes but coporate america has had a horrific track record up to this point. Again, just because you’re blind to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

By Cassie

June 5, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Uh, I’ve been working professionally for fifteen years and I’ve never seen another woman’s thong at work.

Don’t we have a real issue to talk about?

By Info Science Rules

June 5, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Would someone explain to me what a librarian looks like? Being one, I’d like to know. All the ones I know look different: Tall ones, short ones, old ones, young ones, glamorous ones, fashion-challenged ones- heck, I even know several that are men (what does that do for you, Chilao?)

Seriously, if there’s a librarian uniform or something, I need to know.

By JokesOn

June 5, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Men have the ability control themselves just like women do

Reply:

not according to most of the posts today�

No. That is how you (cheaply) interpreted most of the posts today.

By GOB

June 5, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Jack - If your best example of a guy getting screwed by harassment laws ends with him getting a pay raise, I am not impressed.

BlueMoon - If those 3 men had truly been fired unjustly, then they could have filed a lawsuit against the company, especially a Fortune 500 company. If they didnt, then too bad for them.

By Jack

June 5, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

I know about one other friend of mine that got fired for sexual harrasment. Once again we worked together at a huge company here in georgia. My friend was friends with this woman at the company. They were the same age, in their 20’s. Everyone at the company knew they were friends and frequently went to lunch with each other. One day he asked her out on a real date, she said no, that she was dating someone already, then she showed him a picture of her boyfriend. He then jokingly told her that he was ugly and she was too goodlooking for him. The guy in the quibical next to her over heard him say that. He said he would tell if she didnt. The next day she filed sexual harrasement charges on him and he was fired. He also hired an attorney, they offered his job back but he did not take it, he just wanted his record strip clean. He went on to work for anouther company doing the same job.

By Jen

June 5, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

OK, let’s examine. I have in my possession a set of very large breasts. I did not buy these breasts. I inherited them from my mother.

My typical work attire are comfortable jeans and a loose-fitting knit shirt and tennis shoes.

Men stare at my chest. I’m sure they’re having a sexual thought, too. And I’m sort of short and plump, not a Playmate type. But they do it. And I don’t really like it.

So, how am I in control of what men think? And why should I consult them when I dress? Someone mentioned not wearing breasts to work unless you’re old, they sag, or you’re overweight. I’m the third and I’m here to tell you that oen doesn’t necessarily apply….

They’re going to look anyway!

If all women wore burkas all the time this conversation would take a decidedly Richard Gere vs India slant.

By Lily Toad

June 5, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Archie,

My response to the topic question is “No.” I don’t see dressing sexily as an action that “unreasonably interferes with an individual�s work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.�

Many of the commenters are noting that dress should be covered by a dress code, not subject to sexual harrassment rules.

By DBB

June 5, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

theres a cutie a few cubes down from me showing massive c1eavage today.

it makes the day sooooooooo much more pleasant :)

By Lily Toad

June 5, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

By the way, Archie, what was on the screen-saver you mentioned?

By BlueMoon

June 5, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

GOB-

For my last post of the day…(and I’m sure you’re thankful) but your immaturity really shows through in your remark. “Too bad for them”??? Yeah, they lost their jobs but instead of involving themselves in a multi year lawsuit they chose to move on like people of real character do. You know, character? That which is displayed even when people aren’t watching? Or does this line of thinking and living totally lost on you?

The sad fact is that it happened in the first place. You’re so blinded by man hate that you can’t see it though. Typical, and pathetic.

By Jen

June 5, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Oh, yeah, there is a young man in my office who is very well built. He wears button down shirts and slacks every day. It’s very hard not to stare at his bum while he’s walking away because it fills out his slacks very well.

He’s so bad for distracting me.

I’d like a conversation started about how women think about sex and men in just a great a frequency and in just as elemental ways as men do towards women.

When are we going to talk about that? I want a discussion about how women are just as piggy as men.

Excuse me, my co-worker is walking by again….

By MrRogers

June 5, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By GOB

June 5, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

BlueMoon - I am a male who worked in a corporate cubefarm for 6 years at a Fortune 100 company, so I am quite familiar with how these sort of things work.

Yeah, it sucks that they lost their jobs, but if had been me, and I were truly innocent, I would fight like hell to restore my reputation. I would want some sort of concrete proof that I was wronged. I cant imagine it is fun getting a new job when they ask why you left your last.

If they chose not to fight to restore their reputations and their job, it tells me that there might be a good reason for it. As Jack’s earlier examples illustrate, a company will pay up or reinstate a person rather than deal with a wrongful dismissal lawsuit.

Maybe they didnt fight it for a reason, and maybe the law worked like it supposed to in those cases. Unless you were in the room with them, you wont know. Their choosing not to fight speaks volumes.

By More Sad Facts

June 5, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

As a teenager, I got a job serving frozen yogurt at the local mall. Because I was the new employee, I usually had to work the closing shift, clean up, and put all the stuff back in the walk-in freezer. The assistant manager, a fat loser about 26, always followed me in there, making suggestions, touching me, and acting like he liked me. I was a kid (long ago) and didn’t know there were “laws” about that sort of thing. He was persistent in his requests for after-work dates, and me being one of those idiots who thought being pleasant and agreeable was the way to go in life, I finally I agreed. The “date” consisted of him climbing on me in his car, saying and attempting things that were way beyond appropriate for a 15-year-old girl. I finally pushed him off of me when he realized it would be rape, big time, if he continued. The next week I was fired. It was my first, but not my last, sexual harassment by a man who thought big boobs mean free jollies. If I had known then what I know now, it would be different, but he and the manager made me feel like I had done something wrong. I wish I’d had the guts to tell my father.

So spare me your “sad stories” of “misunderstood men,” as told by angry, frustrated wankers who feel like playing the victim card today. My story is a hundred times more common than yours.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 5, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

Are Mara and Kimberly lovers? Inquiring minds want to know! Both of them have severe attitude problems - most likely due to the fact that no man would even look their way if they walked into the office naked.

By JokesOn

June 5, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?

You dang well that is not what is being said, but by your logic we need to address the following:

You know who we need to get in line now? Those damn people that explain that while traveling one should keep their wallet in their front pocket because of pick-pocketers!

Damn them for blaming the innocent person for keeping their wallet in their loose back pocket! How dare they!

That goes for locking your doors too!

(some things simply minimize negative effects of the REAL WORLD)

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By elisabeth

June 6, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

there is a difference between sexy and tacky. I like to dress sexy and be looked at. So what if it distracts a few men? big deal! I have a very good job and dressing with some low cut (but not inappropriate) shirts does not detract from my job or other men in my office. Get a life! The day men will stop staring at me for whatever physical beauty I may still have will be the day I will be sad! So what if some guy gives me a comment about my looks? I do not care (rather like it - I like being a woman). If you can’t handle a few comments, then maybe you should lock yourself up! And if a few men are distracted at work by what you wear, tough for them. Is it worse than wasting time on a ciggie break? We are all adults, are we not? I’ve had a director basically propose to support me if I were so inclined… I just said no thanks. I still have respect for him anyway. It’s his problem if he wants to cheat on the side, not mine. No thank you usually does the trick.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

Are Mara and Kimberly lovers? Inquiring minds want to know! Both of them have severe attitude problems - most likely due to the fact that no man would even look their way if they walked into the office naked.

JeffInRoswell: Lighten up on Mara and kimberly, will you, dude? I may not always agree with their “feminist” perspective, but both of them are extremely intelligent ladies who are well-loved and appreciated by all the regular bloggers on W2W.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this

In fact, both of them make a good point this week: Guys can really be jerks sometimes.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 6, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Mischling

If anybody needs to lighten up it’s the two of them! Look at their posts! Sarcastic wench’s is what comes to mind.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 6, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

In fact, both of them make a good point this week: Guys can really be jerks sometimes.

And… women can’t? You’re a joke.

By MrRogers

June 6, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

A little early for there goes the neighborhood but there goes the neighborhood.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

If anybody needs to lighten up it�s the two of them! Look at their posts! Sarcastic wench�s is what comes to mind.

Well, sometimes you have to scratch below the surface, Jeff. Because we’re men, it’s sometimes hard to appreciate the crap that some ladies have had to take in life. If you stick around for a while, I think you’ll find that both Mara and kimberly are bright, intelligent, interesting people who have a lot of soul and character.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

FYI, MrRogers—you’ve been premature with most of your “Dog” sightings the past few weeks. I’ve only posted once under the name “Dress For Success”, which was on Monday. The poster who goes by “Bruce” is not me, nor is JokesOn.

BTW, I find your fascination with hanging around little kids to be a little suspicious…….

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Final words for you, Jeff: If you think kimberly and Mara feel the way they do because men aren’t interested in them, you’re wrong. In fact, Mara is already happily married. As for kimberly, I would give my right arm to marry her. In a heartbeat.

By Archie

June 6, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

By the way, Archie, what was on the screen-saver you mentioned?

Lily, I had pictures of Destiny’s Child,Deborah Cox, and a cheerleader and other singers. No one was nude or wearing a low top. This particular lady liked to control things but since she is on another side of the room I don’t have any problems but I still don’t have the screensaver. This lady does dress appropiately but she did file a claim against another man so it’s not worth it to me to have a screensaver that I don’t look at because I am away from my desk when it comes on and get a stupid claim on my record. I only side with Shanti on this issue because I see double standards with dress and harassment but most women dress appropiately.

By Monica

June 6, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

Good morning! Sorry I’m late to the discussion. While I agree with Kimberly that provocatve is in the eyes of the beholder, I do think that we can come to an agreement on what crosses the line between appropriate and inviting. I wish that provocative dress could be included under the harassment umbrella, but it also depends on the nature of the jobsite. I think that it is better dealt with as an insubordination issue. If a supervisor tells an employee that his or her clothing is inappropriate, and the employee continues wearing the same clothing, then follow the mandated steps to firing that employee. Insubordination is usually a serious issue.

I can’t really speak to this topic because I’m not in a traditional workplace. As a high school teacher, however, I have seen too many thongs peeking out of low rise pants! Seeing a 14-year-old girl wearing a thong is enough to make me lost my appetite - yuck! Schools do have dress codes, but administrators are inconsistent with enforcement (btw, thongs are not against the rules, but pants that expose the midriff are). My husband is also a teacher, and he is very uncomfortable telling a girl that her pants are see-through or that her skirt is too short, so he will ask a female teacher to address the issue.

When selecting outfits for school, I keep in mind that I teach young boys, so I am very conservative in my attire. I was even more so when I was a young teacher. That’s one area where colleges of education need improvement. Don’t business programs teach their grads how to dress professionally? I’m amazed at the number of teachers who don’t know how to use an iron!

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

And shouldn’t that be “neighbourhood”? That’s how the Limeys spell it, isn’t it? ; > }

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

When selecting outfits for school, I keep in mind that I teach young boys, so I am very conservative in my attire. I was even more so when I was a young teacher.

Can anyone say “Hot For Teacher”? I’m betting all the boys have to hold their notebooks in front of them when they are called to the blackboard by Monica. ; > }

By MsRogers

June 6, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

A 1996 Central Gwinnett High graduate was beaten to death with a hammer by her boyfriend, who later leaped to his death, police said. Friends have said that the unemployed former Massachusetts cop who lost his job after pleading guilty to vehicular manslaughter, became obsessed with her and that she wanted to end their relationship.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 6, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

Now I see why Mischling is buttering up the women. He/She is hoping to get lucky. “Hot For Teacher” LOL!

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

On a serious note, when I was cracking bones for a living, I never liked it when ladies came in “underdressed” for their treatment. I always asked my secretary to stay in the room in such situations to avoid any claims or lawsuits later on. Pretty amazing how “immodest” some ladies can be.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 6, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

Yes Ms. Rogers, while that is an important story, the topic is about women who choose to show ample amounts of their breasts, midriffs and derriere’s in the work place - there by allowing the likes of Mischling to ogle them.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Now I see why Mischling is buttering up the women. He/She is hoping to get lucky. �Hot For Teacher� LOL!

Well, D’OH!!! What guy isn’t hoping to get lucky? Unfortunately, Monica is also taken, though. kimberly is the lone holdout.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Yes Ms. Rogers, while that is an important story, the topic is about women who choose to show ample amounts of their breasts, midriffs and derriere�s in the work place - there by allowing the likes of Mischling to ogle them.

Jeff, if you ogle tastefully, I find most women enjoy the attention.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

But don’t use me as a model of how to flirt successfully on W2W. I’m pretty good in person, not as good on the blog.

Now Jack, he’s smooth. If I had that guy’s suave, I’d have me a hot redhead for a wife for sure!

By MsRogers

June 6, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

I have yet to see one women dressing overly sexy in an office setting. Boy is this topic stupid & the ones obsessing over women’s bodies need help.
There are bigger things to be worried about. The topic should be “why are men so easily distracted?”.

An Auburn man was arrested Friday and charged with murder in the burning deaths of his ex-girlfriend, her mother and the former couple�s two children. Police say Stringer set fire to the Pendergrass Road home of his former girlfriend. The blaze was later determined to be arson and autopsies at the GBI crime lab determined all four victims had died as a result of the fire.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

Friends have said that the unemployed former Massachusetts cop who lost his job after pleading guilty to vehicular manslaughter, became obsessed with her and that she wanted to end their relationship.

Sad story, MsRogers. Honestly, I can’t relate to guys who want to injure their former girlfriends. I’ve been known to beg a little, but utlimately always accept the breakup in the end and wish them well.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

the ones obsessing over women�s bodies need help. There are bigger things to be worried about. The topic should be �why are men so easily distracted?�.

Well, I’m easily disracted, MsRogers. What kind of help should I seek? Please don’t suggest castration.

By RF

June 6, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Monica- How’s the summer beginning?? I have three days off and then summer school starts. YIKES!! I just couldn’t turn down the extra money.

I have to agree with you about professional dress. As a teacher also, I’ve seen teachers have to be reprimanded for unprofessional dress. You’d think a college educated person working with teenagers and their hormones would think about what he/she is wearing. My students are constantly pushing the limits and letting more and more hang out of their clothes. I politely tell the boys to pull up their pants and cover their boxers, and I’ve discussed dress code with my classes. My rule to the girls is this— if you put them out there, some boy will think they’re his for grabbing. Don’t put the merchandise on the shelf if it isn’t for sale.

In the workplace, you have to consider company rules and abide by them. If you like the attention and it’s not against company policy, then you just have to live with the complaints. Most people (and I include males here) who dress provocatively want the attention. So, if you complain, you’re giving them the satisfaction of knowing you’re looking.

By Bruce

June 6, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

I found this on the below link in case someone else want’s to read the whole thing.

http://www.discriminationattorney.com/harasswk.shtml

“Who can sue? Anyone who is offended by a sexually harassing environment may theoretically sue. However, that employee’s offense must be reasonable. An extremely sensitive person might not be able to maintain a claim, because her feelings of having been offended were not reasonable.

The reasonableness is evaluated by a standard that is the same as a person in the victim’s circumstances. For example, what a reasonable woman might think is a hostile environment is not necessarily the same as what a man might think is a hostile environment. If it’s a woman who was harassed, it’s the woman’s point of view that counts.”

By funnyPicshfeb

June 6, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

1 Funny Pictures here

By MsRogers

June 6, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

“Well, I�m easily disracted, MsRogers. What kind of help should I seek?”

LoL! tape your elbows to your waist, that way you can only reach so far.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Howdy, Bruce. For some reason, some of the women here think that sexual harassment suits are rare. While working at Domino’s Pizza, I knew of a manager who got fired for harrassing one of the female employees. While he obviously did wrong, the truth of the situation is that the girl involoved let other male employees openly feel up her boobs and butt. It doesn’t excuse his behavior, but some girls do seem to “ask for it”. The other case occurred at a clinic I worked at in the late 1980s. The owner, who wasn’t a doctor, was sued by a female employee. In that case, the woman involved was a devout Christian who did not dress or act provacatively. So, I also understand that not every girl “asks for it”.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

LoL! tape your elbows to your waist, that way you can only reach so far.

Um, it’s not my elbows that I seem to be having trouble with, MsRogers. Does duct tape work for other parts of the body?

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Actually, I also remember a third sexual harrassment suit from when I worked briefly for Arbys in 1982. In that case, a young female employee had stated several times that she was open to having an affair with any guy in the store that would have her (she was married). Apparently, the manager took her up on her offer. IMO, he was a jerk for harrassing her, but in that case there definitely was provocation.

By Rasta Man

June 6, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

I like it when the girlies dress slutty!

By JokesOn

June 6, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Mischling,

While you and I agree on a lot, Kim’s and Jack’s personality/soul/intelligence would be fighting grounds.

Granted, you like them - but admit that your opinion is biased.

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

Gotta run, but again, I want to state clearly that I side with Mara, lozen, and kimberly this week. Women like attention, and we men definitely enjoy providing that attention (wink, wink). However, those dynamics, under no circustances ever give a man an excuse to act rudely, and definitely not criminally.

If I have behaved poorly myself toward any of the fine ladies here, I sincerely apologize. I’m just a horny old mongrel who can’t always control himself…… Please forgive.

Love to all, especially…….

By MrRogers

June 6, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Love to all, especially��.

I’m touched….

By Mischling

June 6, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

While you and I agree on a lot, Kim�s and Jack�s personality/soul/intelligence would be fighting grounds.

Granted, you like them - but admit that your opinion is biased.

JokesOn, this is going to have to be part of the 1% of the time I don’t agree with you. If I have to take an a*-beating from you to stick up for them, so be it.

You know, I’m a pretty crazy guy, but I’m also a good judge of people. To me, Jack is very intelligent because he makes the most of situations and has created a satisfying life for himself, which, IMO, is the truest definition of intelligence. I’ve got tons of book smarts, but don’t have the true intelligence that Jack has. Personally, I would trade all of my worldly success to have what Jack has: a wife and family who love him.

As for kimberly, well, don’t get me started. I will agree that she presents somewhat of a negative front to the world, but I haven’t walked a mile in her moccasins to know what led to that, so I just accept it. Even you cannot deny her obvious intelligence and wickedly funny sense of humor. As for soul power, I think the woman is oozing with it, but that may be a subjective assessment.

By NetBanker

June 6, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Happy Wednesday everyone! Once again it’s not Friday, but this comment in the AJC Vent made me giggle (probably because I’m not a real war supporter) :

We all know the JFK terror plot never could have actually happened. We�re fighting terrorists in Iraq, so there�s no way they could attack us here at the same time.

By RF

June 6, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Net- I saw that one and had to snicker as I shook my head. It’s the terrorists here that scare me the most. Iraqis will have to figure out their future no matter how long we stay and “help” them restore order and “fight” terrorism. I wonder how long it will be before we have to deploy troops on our own soil to fight the radicals who are steadily setting up shop here.

Such a happy thought for a warm southern day (“waham” as my granny would say fanning herself in the front porch swing).

By NetBanker

June 6, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

*�If a woman dresses in a way that warrants attention and a man looks, so be it�

Seems to me that there�s not much difference between saying someone who is being harrassed deserved it because she did wear that �short skirt, see-through top, and clown make-up� (and what did she expect, anyway�) and the woman who is �asking� to be raped when she goes out in that short skirt, heels, low cut blouse etc.*

Hold up there! There is a distinct difference between someone looking based on what is being worn and someone being harassed over what is being worn. Mara, you made a logic jump to harassment that, IMO, goes beyond what was being said.

(Mandatory pedicures for men AND women who wear sandals, perhaps? Hmmm�) Absolutely!! Working for a California-based software company our dress code is casual and often includes shorts and sandals in summer. I’ve seen far too many crusty, fungal crud looking NASTY toes on the men. The only exceptions are the younger metro-sexual-type guys and me (the lone gay boy in the Atlanta offices)

I personally find tight jeans to be quite distracting. So should I be able to file a harrassment claim because I can�t concentrate around guys in tight jeans? Should obvious �packages� be grounds for me to complain because it just makes me too �hot� and I can�t get any work done? Is that their fault, or mine? Who cares?! Enjoy the view like Jen because it’s far too rare an occurance.

*it�s interesting that the majority seems to be debating what women should or should not be able to wear to the office. (IMO A woman can wear anything the dress code doesn�t prohibit) THAT isn�t the question though. Nor is it whether men should be expected to control themselves no matter what the woman wears.

The question is whether it should be actionable as harrassment for a woman to wear something her coworkers find�inappropriate* Acutally that isn’t the question either. It is whether provactive dress (i.e. attire) should be added to workplace sexual harassment laws. Because the columnists immediately spoke about women’s dress we are ignoring that the question is gender neutral as are the harassment laws and the applicability of them to both genders despite originally being written due to the harassment of women.

Also, who do you propose pays for the school uniforms that are now mandatory? In public schools, you cant require the parents to pay. I just don’t understand this argument since the parents can’t send their children to school naked and must purchase clothing for them to wear. Of the parents I know who do send their children to public schools that require uniforms they uniformly love it. They’ve all said that it makes their lives much easier shopping for school clothes, that they’ve saved money on uniforms over more expensive trendy stuff, and that it makes getting ready for school easier by negating the “I have nothing to wear to school” argument. I could understand the sentiment if the school required a particular brand of clothing, but they don’t.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Since the blog is dead for the week already, I’d like to revisit a question posed last week: Has “God” favored or blessed the USA? If I recall correctly, the poser of that question seemed to feel that because of certain events in the history of the US (e.g slavery, genocide of the native Americans), that this claim cannot be true. The poser of the question also asked if previous, non-Christian nations like Rome could be considered blessed by “God” as well.

By Monica

June 6, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Hi RF! At Hang in there during summer school. I hope you have a refreshing vacation sandwiched in between the end of that and the beginning of school in August!

Net, I use those same points to argue in favor of uniforms. I truly think that the learning environment would be better with them. I wish that I had a uniform as well; that would save countless nails from being bitten on those mornings when I’m already running late, staring into the abyss that is my closet, frantically grabbing a shirt to see if it goes with a certain set of pants!

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

If a person starts out by defining “God” to mean an anthropomorphic being who lives somewhere in space and who can intervene in manly affairs, the question becomes unanswerable, because such a “God” is unprovable and doesn’t correlate with any known laws of physics. A few posters referenced Deism, which technically still incorporates a supernatural “God”, and doesn’t really answer the question either. Other posters dismissed the idea of “God” altogether, thereby stating that the idea of a “favored nation”, or even a “favored person” is silly.

By Yawner

June 6, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Yawnnnnn

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

The best view, IMO, is once again, the idea of Emmanuel, or “God within”. By viewing matter itself as being divine, two pitfalls are avoided: (1) The belief in an unprovable anthropomorphic, whimsical God which violates the laws of physics (2) The empty view of the existentialists that there simply is no God.

The “proof” of Emmanuel is simple: Particular atomic/molecular arrangements display properties which cannot ever be explained in terms of the properties of the atoms and molecules themselves. That is to say, certain “emergent”, or “transcendent” properties of matter, especially in matter we describe as “living”, somehow result from the particular arrangements they are organized into. In short, magic exists in matter itself. No appeal to a Platonic/heavenly God needs to be made. God and matter are inseparable, just as Aristotle argued.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

The beautiful part of accepting Emmanuel is that “miracles” can be accepted and appreciated without having to maintain two disparate worldviews deep in your brains (i.e “normal” physics and “Godly” physics). Even more importantly, the idea of Emmanuel provides the necessary motivation for people to want to be good. The problem with using the “Mack-Daddy-In-The-Sky” explanation, is that once a person grows up and stops believing in fairy tales, they can also be tempted to throw away all the good moral instruction that goes along with church indoctrination. The problem with existentialism is that ultimately it cannot provide a reason to be good since “Nothing Ultimately Matters” since were all going to die soon anyway.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

The intriguing part to me, yawner, is that all the wonderful precepts of the Bible, such as sin, grace, and redemption make perfect sense in the world of Emmanuel. Of course, some redefinition is required to make it all work out. Sin, for example, literally means “falling away from God”. To “Christians, this means disobeying the specific commandments of the Bible. To the existentialist, sin is a non-concept, since morality is simply what you define it to be. To the Emmanuelist, sin means the same thing as the Biblical definition: Falling away from God. i.e. the God that is here and now.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

So, to apply this way of thinking to the poser’s question, yes, Emmanuel has certainly favored the USA due to all the good policies and practices we have embraced over time. What are those good policies and practices? To begin with, our Constitution and the personal protections and freedoms afforded by it are unprecedented in history. It took a while for all citizens to enjoy these freedoms, but we’re here for the most part. Secondly, our foreign policy has been beneficial to the rest of the world for the most part. We’re the good guys most of the time.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

In answer to the poser’s point that our history is not sterling, that we shouldn’t be able to claim Godliness due to poor behavior along the way, again I appeal to Christianity. None of us are perfect, poser. All of us have done things we are ashamed of, both individually and as a nation. If you remember, God (and Emmanuel) provide a mechanism for forgiveness for us. It’s called repentance, which simply means asking for forgiveness, and most importantly, doing better next time.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Of course, for many people, such as myself and possibly the poser of the question, forgiving ourselves is the hardest thing in the world to do. Why? Because deep inside we may not believe we deserve a second chance.

Fortunately, the Bible once again comes to the rescue with the concept of Grace—i.e. God’s unmerited Love for us. What this means is that we don’t have to deserve God’s Love through a perfect history in order to receive it here and now. Of course, God’s Love can show up in mysterious ways sometimes……..Not always the way we want it to be. And that, in the world of Emmanuel is the meaning of submission to God: Accepting outcomes regardless of whether they turn out the way our selfish minds want them to or not.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Final point: Has Emmanuel favored other nations along the way? I would argue that to the extent that they followed Godly principles, they were favored. God is too big to shoehorn into just one religion or any one group of people. And, most importantly, “favor” is an ongoing process. Contrary to the false teachings of some churches, being “saved” is not a permanent condition.

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

But really, yawner, I’m very interested in your point of view on this matter. How do you explain God? What is your personal view of sin and redemption? Are people really “bad” or “good”?

By Diane and Shaunti

June 6, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Dear bloggers:

We apologize that some of our recent topics have not lived up to our new standards. However, we think you’ll appreciate next week’s fare.

As an experiment, we’ll be limiting commenting to a single person. You guessed it!

We’re very excited to find out exactly how much self-indulgent bolgsturbation one single schizoid narcissist can churn out in a week without repeating himself. We’re anticipating a post-count higher than that on any other week in the blog’s history.

In fact, as an extra-special incentive, should said schizoid narcissist manage to out-blog all previous comers, we at the AJC will declare him King of the Universe and Ruler of Wisdom at the end.

Let the fun begin!

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

In fact, as an extra-special incentive, should said schizoid narcissist manage to out-blog all previous comers, we at the AJC will declare him King of the Universe and Ruler of Wisdom at the end.

I thought I already had the title, but if you insist, I’ll come back next week and give it my best shot. I bet you are trembling with anticipation…… You also forgot Best Lover on the Planet. ; > }

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

My suggestion to you is this, Diane and Shaunti: Work hard, save your money and be smart like I was, then you can retire early and have plenty of time to annoy whoever you like. What do you say?

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, I’m going to have to make about 600 posts next weeks to claim the record. Without any repetition.

So, did you guys want some more Physics lectures about the falsity of the Second Law of Thermodynamics as applied to living systems? How about more concert reviews? Or, we could just talk about sex all week. Any votes?

By JokesOn

June 6, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Buddha,

The problem with existentialism is that ultimately it cannot provide a reason to be good since �Nothing Ultimately Matters� since were all going to die soon anyway.

Your interpretation of existentialism is incorrect. The correct understanding of existentialism defines that since nothing can be proven to the ultimate degree that STYLE is the important factor, which if considered honestly parallels your same notion of Emmanuel: the inherent style of matter that is elusive yet obvious.

Existential analogy of this concept: If in a boat, at sea, with no land in sight; the best one can do is choose a direction and paddle in style.

By GOB

June 6, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Is your goal to actually kill the blog, or is that just a side effect of your psychosis?

By WhileytoTHErescue

June 6, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Buddha, stop being such a dumb male.

By JokesOn

June 6, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

By WhileytoTHErescue

June 6, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Buddha, stop being such a dumb male.

Could please be a dumb female is what I think she is implying;)

And we know who Mr. Rodgers is now;)

By Buddha

June 6, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Buddha, stop being such a dumb male.

Whiley, honey, you know I can’t help myself. I’m in love, so I gotta make a good impression with my great intellect. The fact that it hasn’t worked so far is no deterrent either!

Is your goal to actually kill the blog, or is that just a side effect of your psychosis?

Most likely just a side effect, GOB. Hey, BTW, did you notice the newest math course from The Teaching Company? It’s an update of The Joy of Mathematics and features none other than Arthur Benjamin of Harvey Mudd College! Smart folks over there at The Teaching Company. I also just got in the updated Astronomy course with Alex Fillipenko. Excellent.

JokesOn—I’m not an expert, but I think that there is a subtle, yet critical difference between existentialism and Emmanuelism. Both certainly rely on allegorical explanations, since mere words are inadequate to describe the Divine. The biggest difference is that existentialism is ultimately relativistic in its ethical presentation in stating that good and evil lie strictly in the eye of the beholder. Emmanuelism, on the other hand, relies on the same moral absolutism found in quack religions like Judaism and Christianity, but relies on Science to provide the meat and bones explanations of actual physical mechanisms rather than on fairy tales.

Also, Mr. Rogers is usually Chilao. Whiley is just a late copycatter. I did figure out that she is most likely the one who has been stealing names the past 6 months, however, with her recent admission to stealing both your name and Jack’s.

By WhileytoTHErescue

June 6, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

Mr Rogers is actually Mr Whiley !

What is it about dumb males? Why do they get joy out of trying to ruin a woman’s blog? Why do they have the urge to harrass women? If they can’t control what women are saying, doing, wearing, or their sex lives, well HECK they can BORE us to death. Budda, or whoever-whatever dumb male you want to be today, go away honey women don’t want to read your dumb male crap.

So back to the blog, where are all these stripper dressing women some of you are talking about? LoL. Ladies we all know what real sexual harrassment is, & most of us are too busy & can’t financially risk taking a company or boss to court anyway. If were that easy the courts would be filled with sexual harrassment cases, although I’m sure there are petty lawsuits filed.

So tell me again why are people obsessed with what women should or should not be wearing?

Then tell me why men are not responsible for making unwanted sexual advances? Can they not take a hint if a woman is uncomfortable or not interested???

By WhileyFAN

June 6, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

WHILEY WELCOME BACK! Besides Lozen she’s the only other one that will laugh in “dumb males” faces! You go girl.
That’s a good point, are guys that dumb they can’t tell when we don’t want their ugly butt talking to us? NO I’m NOT interested if I WAS YOU’D KNOW IT!

By NetBanker

June 6, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Hey RF! Nice to �see� you! So will summer school provide a little more time for you to join us on the blog? I�ve been so busy with work that I�m just not able to participate as much as I used to, but that�s life when you want to keep earning a check. I�ll bet your boys are disappointed that you�ll be working instead of spending the summer with them. I agree with you that the cells here and open borders that allow terrorists to just come on over from Mexico is far more frightening to me than the fight in Iraq. It would be so easy to wreak economic havoc already in our own country by simply blowing up a few train bridges like the one at E. Ponce and North Decatur Road or one of the bridges at Spaghetti Junction. Let�s not forget that military study released more than 6 months ago that clearly stated we are currently providing the perfect training ground for urban terror tactics and that due to the porous Iraqi border �new� terrorists are able to return to their homes or at least leave the country with field tested bomb building skills, etc.

Monica�when I�m really stuck I do resort to my �work� uniform which means grabbing one of the several company polo shirts I have from representing us at industry conferences or our own user�s conference and throwing on a pair of khaki pants. While guys sometimes do have it easier when it comes to getting dress I sometimes feel like that is only because we�re far more limited in what is acceptable to wear. While women can grab a dress, skirt, pants, or shorts in summer to wear to work generally speaking men have pants or�.pants. While I can wear shorts to work I generally do not I guess because I�m �old school� and feel kind of funny about it�although I don�t mind the compliments I�ve received on my legs.

By nqoej xlkjcuveh

June 6, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

fcaynkgdb julphia bsfml wyki nhfeurzs jfut dsfne

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Then tell me why men are not responsible for making unwanted sexual advances? Can they not take a hint if a woman is uncomfortable or not interested???

That�s a good point, are guys that dumb they can�t tell when we don�t want their ugly butt talking to us? NO I�m NOT interested if I WAS YOU�D KNOW IT!

If you want the honest truth, ladies, almost all of you are masters of giving out mixed signals. I know you’re going to deny it, but I’m sure the guys here will support me on this point. Most men respect a ladies wishes and feelings—when we know what those feelings actually are.

I’ve had several close lady friends admit to me that when a guy they’re not really interested in starts showing them a lot of attention, most will play along even though they have no intention of ever becoming intimate. When pressed to explain themselves, all just shrugged their shoulders.

I will grant y’all one thing: In the good relationships I’ve had, the attraction was obvious from the beginning—No hoops to jump through, no Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown at the last second.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

For proof of my point, consider the story told by a woman poster a few days ago under the name “More Sad Facts”:

The assistant manager, a fat loser about 26, always followed me in there, making suggestions, touching me, and acting like he liked me. I was a kid (long ago) and didn�t know there were �laws� about that sort of thing. He was persistent in his requests for after-work dates, and me being one of those idiots who thought being pleasant and agreeable was the way to go in life, I finally I agreed. The �date� consisted of him climbing on me in his car, saying and attempting things that were way beyond appropriate for a 15-year-old girl. I finally pushed him off of me when he realized it would be rape, big time, if he continued. The next week I was fired. It was my first, but not my last, sexual harassment by a man who thought big boobs mean free jollies. If I had known then what I know now, it would be different, but he and the manager made me feel like I had done something wrong. I wish I�d had the guts to tell my father

Some quick questions for you, More Sad Facts: If this particular assistant manager grossed you out, why did you agree to go on a car date with him? You referenced telling your Dad about the experience—did he know of and approve of this date in advance? You claimed you were 15 and the guy was 26. I have a hard time imagining any father approving this date. Finally, do you not take any responsibility for your willingness to “go along with things”. If you reached the point where the guy was on top of you, I have to believe you gave him some encouragement, or at the minimum little discouragement. Bottom line, the guy was wrong, but it sure sounds like you made it fairly easy for him.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

To be fair, a big part of the problem is the male imagination. With male hormones being what they are, it doesn’t take a lot of encouragement for us to start conjuring up visions of a blissful life together based on almost nothing. Sorry about that part. Most likely, it is a psychological mechanism to help us remain optimistic in the face of rejection.

Once rejected, most males have enough self-pride to simply move on, as I usually do. On occasions, I have made angry remarks due to hurt feelings, which I always deeply regret later. Sorry.

By Lyrazel

June 7, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

The question was: can women wearing provocative clothing be charged with sexual harassment in the workplace. Most answers have gone the: appropriate dress for work—

If you see her nipples through a shirt can she be charged with sexually harassing you?

We all know sexual harassment laws are broad enough to cover workers from fast-food to corporate businesses but is this applicable in all situations? For example a life guard at a pool. Can she file a lawsuit because another lifeguard is in speedos that reveal too much neck? Laws that apply to the whole of the working public cannot be arbitrary thus there must be standards applied to every worker same as OSHA does.

Just how could you prove this case in court? Would you need photographs of said employee in revealing clothing? Would taking pictures of a secretaries butt revealing a thong be sexual harassment as well? Can this harassment be applied to all overweight men/women who bend too far over and their pants stay put or their cleavage shows? Just how many regulations need to be applied to make this possible additional law? Does it not in turn cheapen laws protecting people from sexual harassment at work by being petty thus negating the whole law its offenders and its victims?

On-job sexual harassment is one of the hardest lawsuits to prove for victims. Additions like this would make the law subject to frivolous lawsuits thus harming the victims.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

On-job sexual harassment is one of the hardest lawsuits to prove for victims.

Does anyone have any actual statistics regarding how many harrassment suits are filed each year? You ladies seem to think it is a rare occurrence. As stated before, I know of at least three complaints filed in places I worked which resulted in firings/compensation. I don’t think any of those cases ever reached the court system, I believe all were settled in-house. I suspect the vast majority of harrassment cases are settled this way.

By Lyrazel

June 7, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

Dumb Male: why do men use the excuse of fairly easy to justify harassing female subordinate employees? If a man decides that the women at work are just there for his own use, pleasure that is ultimately sexual harassment of employees. Again you blame a victim for making it fairly easy instead of affording any support that her lack of experience, her desires to remain employed, her legal rights were compromised because she is fairly easy. Truth is she was a MINOR thus it was sexual harassment of an underaged employee and consensual sex only can happen between adults.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

Lyrazel, reread my post. I said that the bottom line is the male is wrong and has to take responsiblility for his actions, especially considering that the “date” grew out of a work situation in which there was a power imbalance. I’m not cutting the guy any slack here. But, at the same time, it sounds as if the young lady was completely complicit to the guys advances if she agreed to go on an actual date with him. Yes, I sympathize with the girl that her lack of experience in the world and lack of assertiveness led to her making some very poor decisions. At the same time, the guy may have truly believed that this girl was interested in him due to her agreement to the date.

I’m arguing for shared responsibility, I’m not blaming the woman. In return, every singly one of you ladies here want to blame the guy 100%. That’s just not fair, and will never lead to a solution to the problem.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

why do men use the excuse of fairly easy to justify harassing female subordinate employees?

I think the point is that you cannot control other people and therefore need to learn how to navigate situations.

Look to the example of keeping your wallet in your back pocket on vacation for inspiration.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Am I the only one seeing a contradiction here? According to the two quotes above, you ladies always make it crystal clear when you’re not really interested in a guy. So what do you call agreeing to go on a date?? I would call that showing interest.

If you want a true, yet very embarrasing personal story, one of my sisters (astrological sign not going to be mentioned here) started dating her English teacher while a senior in High School, and actually moved in with him before the year was up. Ok, the guy should be shot for hitting on his student. But at the same time, how can I not hold my sis responsible for her decisions? BTW, for those of you who think I’m nothing but a judgmental jerk, I have never, ever brought this topic up to her.

By Dumb Male#2

June 7, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

You are NOT the only one.

By Dumb Male#3

June 7, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Ditto.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

“Woman Arrested for Making Faces at Dog”

All charges were dropped though - otherwise you could have MANY lawsuits just on this blog man;)

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

I’ll tell you what, Lyrazel. I’m going to make an appeal to Monica to setle this dispute. I’ll agree to whatever Monica says.

Monica, you’ve stated that your Dad kept his shotgun in view for your dates to see. Hopefully your parents also helped foster a good sense of self-esteem within you as well. How many incidences of true harrassment from supervisors, etc. have you experienced over the years? The kind that a respectful request from you couldn’t stop? I’m betting you had less incidences of rude behavior directed your way than some of the other ladies here due to your sense of personal dignity. This is not to blame those who have had numerous incidences, but I don’t see it as a complete coincidence that some ladies keep experiencing the same problem over and over again.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

�Woman Arrested for Making Faces at Dog�

All charges were dropped though - otherwise you could have MANY lawsuits just on this blog man;)

I appreciate the vote of supprt, JokesOn. What kind of cash do you think I could get for all the harrasment I’ve received here on the blog? ; > }

Actually, I’d probably have to pay out far more for all the complaints agianst me than I would ever receive, so maybe blog harrassment suits are a bad idea after all. {^->

By More Sad Facts

June 7, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Dumb Male, I was fifteen you STUPID sh-t head! I wasn’t dating yet. The assistant manager was not gross. His advances made me uncomfortable but since I was a stupid kid, I did not fully understand how I was supposed to respond, since teenagers are trying to work their way up to adulthood but don’t always know what that entails. I did not know he was going to park the car and climb on top of me until he did. I did not tell my father because the adults who managed the store made me feel about an inch tall. It was not until later that I understood the ramifications and what was really going on. I was humiliated and ashamed, but I know now the only thing I did “wrong” was to not be a bi_tch to that man in the first place and find a different job.

I wish I could say I have never made the mistake of trusting the wrong person since then, but at least it happens less often. Thank you for being absolutely the most annoying, obnoxious, insensitive, self-serving, manipulative as_hole one could ever have the pleasure of not meeting. I can assure you that the object of your affection truly deeply regrets ever even saying hello to you ever, and will never ever ever as long as she lives entertain for one second the absurd notion of forgiving you. Ever.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

I wasn�t dating yet.

I do not believe you for a second. You were not (allowed?) to date one your own age, but disregarded that for much older guy?

Mkay…just a whiley fabricated story here. None of it makes sense.

By Facts

June 7, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

The DumbMale Doggy-boy has earned every bit of contempt thrown his way.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

Actually, I�d probably have to pay out far more for all the complaints agianst me than I would ever receive, so maybe blog harrassment suits are a bad idea after all. {^->

The story did not say ANYTHING about lawsuits of a dog making faces at a human, only the the opposite.

So you might be safe;)

By Jeff in Roswell

June 7, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

Women are notorious for working the system to their advantage. I agree with the whole mixed signal thing. Guys are straight out - yes or no. Don’t give us all of the gray and in the middle crap that women use daily in all situations. How in hell are we NOT confused?

My thing is this. How do women dress to go out to a club? They want people (guys possibly) to notice them. They wear clothing that will get them noticed - be it loud colors, tight fitting or revealing. It’s PRIMAL instinct for a guy to notice a womans physique. Now, with that being said… drooling and staring is a different subject. If the same woman decides to dress the same way at the office as she does at the clubs, bar etc… then how would one expect a male to react any differently? I am going to notice if a woman is showing midriff. I am going to glance at her cleavage if she’s showing it. Sorry, but it’s called being a male. I understand that women don’t need to be subjected to harassment but please… is looking at you considered harassment? If your definition is just that, then please consider wearing clothing that doesn’t draw attention to yourself.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

More Sad Facts: I accept your feelings toward me. I didn’t conduct myself honorably, and have to live with that. Not an easy thing to do.

I still hope the best for you, though. You are a good person, even though I’m not. Ok?

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

My thing is this. How do women dress to go out to a club? They want people (guys possibly) to notice them.

To expand on that notion: If the girl attracts a guy she LIKES, then dressing sexy worked; but god forbid if she is advanced by a guy she does not like.

When you use a general lure, you are not guaranteed a bass! It might be a big fat turtle, and you cannot blame the turtle.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

And I can accept that you won’t forgive me, as much as that hurts. But, PLEASE FORGIVE YOURSELF. Ok? Don’t go to your grave in pain.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

The DumbMale Doggy-boy has earned every bit of contempt thrown his way.

So have you whiley, and even more. At least he has some different tunes, and had shown understanding/compassion.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 7, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Dumb Male I do actually believe that More Sad Facts had some issues at that age (15). She may not have dated. At the age of 15 one still has a lot of things to learn about life in general and to expect that they know what to do in all situations is unreasonable. Hell, I didn’t have a serious date until I was out of High School! I was still a child when I graduated. Everybody’s level of maturity around that age is different. One would hope that a 26 year old would be more responsible and actually look out for a young girl rather than try to nail her. Maybe he was lacking in maturity also? I may be wrong but it seems that More Sad Facts has now stereo-typed all males because of her horrible experience… (I can understand why)

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

The assistant manager, a fat loser about 26, always followed me in there, making suggestions, touching me, and acting like he liked me.

The assistant manager was not gross. His advances made me uncomfortable but since I was a stupid kid, I did not fully understand how I was supposed to respond,

And sorry to pick, but you might want to reexamine your own statements for a flavor of the confusion we males have to endure from the ladies we become interested in. In your first version of the story, the asst. manager was a fat loser who made “unwanted” advances toward you. In the next version, you deny that he was gross, indicating that maybe you enjoyed the attention. I’m not trying to blame you, honey, just asking you to understand why some males become “confused”.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Last question for you ladies: If I’m all bad, why does my current lady friend think so highly of me? She leaves phone messages 2-3 times a day to say how much she cares for me and appreciates the emotional support I give her (as well as some other “goodies” I give her). In return, I’ve never had a woman do so much for me in such a short time. It’s all simple, like it should be. Without the anxiety of all the guessing games, I’m able to relax and actually be the good guy I am deep inside.

By Lyrazel

June 7, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

When I talk about work I do not mean clubs. The behavior of said office manager was inappropriate for a work situation. No ifs no ands and no exceptions because it is work! No employee whether male or female should be subjected to improper sexual advances made by supervisors or other employees at work. That is law.

The law about sexual assault of a minor is specific—and regardless if men believe she is sending mixed messages they are under law obligated to obey law or risk jail. There are plenty of examples of how the law is enforced and many people from errant schoolteachers to 17 year old boys have been imprisoned by the law protecting minors. What is so difficult to understand? Its not shared responsibility nor is it arbitrary depending on what she was wearing. Laws against sexually assaulting teenage minors are in place for their protection. I doubt anyone here would want their teenager bullied by a work supervisor to the point described or their 15 year old daughter pawed and fondled because he cant control his hormones.

So stop blaming the victim.

By TonySoprano

June 7, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

My shrink considers me a psychopath but I fool many people.

By Smart Male

June 7, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

“Without the anxiety of all the guessing games, I�m able to relax and actually be the good guy I am deep inside.”

Finally a man explains to you cows in simple terms you can understand why it is you’re fault he is he cant be a good guy. Smarten up ladies and give a man respect he has not earned and anything else he wants from you and he will relax and be a good guy. Try it sometime instead of being such a beeyotch.

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Thank you for being absolutely the most annoying, obnoxious, insensitive, self-serving, manipulative as_hole one could ever have the pleasure of not meeting. I can assure you that the object of your affection truly deeply regrets ever even saying hello to you ever, and will never ever ever as long as she lives entertain for one second the absurd notion of forgiving you. Ever.

If it’s any consolation, I still stand by my opinion about you, More Sad Facts: You are likely one of the smartest, funniest, most interesting, soulful people I ever had the pleasure of not meeting. The fact that you have had such bad experiences with men rips a hole in my heart, because it doesn’t have to be that way. You have some negatives, but nothing I can see that should prevent you from meeting and marrying the man of your dreams.

From my heart, best of luck. I truly wish I had been the one….

By Dumb Male

June 7, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Smarten up ladies and give a man respect he has not earned and anything else he wants from you and he will relax and be a good guy.

I agree with your point, Smart Male. I didn’t earn the respect of the object of my affection, so I have no right to complain. It just hurts to screw something up you wanted so badly. I know, can’t win them all.

By Monica

June 7, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Dumb Male, I have never had any unwelcome advances in the workplace, but I have worked in places that are predomiantly female. That might make a different.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 7, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

wondering… Obviously, advances, innuendos and touching are out of the question and considered Harassment 101. But, how do the women here feel about a male that happens to look at her at work? Does it make a difference on how you feel based on the clothes you happen to be wearing that day? I mean what if you happened to be wearing baggy clothing that didn’t really reveal anything about your body… does that make a difference in how you perceive “the looking”? And… at the opposite end if you happened to be, let’s say, busty and you might be sporting a lot of cleavage one day - do you think differently about the glances that your male coworkers may give you?

By Saher1979

June 7, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

If you have to do it, you might as well do it right

where are you google, i miss you?

By Saher1979

June 7, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

If you have to do it, you might as well do it right

where are you google, i miss you?

By Lyrazel

June 7, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff put the brakes on a minute. One does not sport a lot of cleavage one day and take it off the next. Just remember she will have a lot of cleavage daily—

Also, do you feel you should have the right to make a sexual harassment claim if a woman shows too much cleavage?

By Jeff in Roswell

June 7, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Maybe my words got lost in the translation. My wife happens to be very busty. There are days she may wear things that just happen to downplay her breasts. Loose clothing or high necklines. Other times she wears blouses that are tight fitting with plunging neck lines exposing her cleavage - her bare skin between her breasts - that’s what I am talking about. I was just curious to see if that made a woman feel different from day to day depending on the clothes. My wife has never complained to me about staring but, she also is a very busy person at work who really doesn’t have time to notice.

And for the record No… I don’t feel that it’s sexual harassment for showing to much cleavage. I would just hope that she wouldn’t accuse ME of harassment by glancing at her.

Again, I’m not talking about staring, slack jawed - more like a casual glance - I mean how can one clarify what’s going through the others mind? I think it’s really just common sense - which surprisingly many of us do not have.

By Lyrazel

June 7, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

• …more like a casual glance - I mean how can one clarify what�s going through the others mind? I think it�s really just common sense - which surprisingly many of us do not have*

Drooling helps.

No I don’t feel a man can bring the case of sexual harassment at work if a woman constantly wears a low decoltage…nor can a woman bring a case of sexual harassment at work if his pants are too tight.

By Mara

June 7, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Hi ya all. Just a quick drop-in, wayyyyy to busy today to hang out.

Net - Hold up there! There is a distinct difference between someone looking based on what is being worn and someone being harassed over what is being worn. Mara, you made a logic jump to harassment that, IMO, goes beyond what was being said.

it wasn’t MY jump. The first sentence in Shaunti’s opinion says that a man in California can be a sued for staring, implying that it’s for harrassment. Then there were other posters who were commenting on men being accused of harrassment “just for looking”. While I doubt that “just looking” would actually lead to a harrassment claim, who am I to call them out on it? I’m not an expert but they claim the experience of being in the know on several cases….

Jeff in Roswell - I mean how can one clarify what�s going through the others mind…

how is that substantially different than ME saying that women aren’t responsible for what men think?

By GrlJustLikeMe

June 7, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

This week I sat down on the couch, turned on the tv and clicked over to the Today show. The top of the hour news segment was about 18 year old Kelsey Smith, who went missing from a Target parking lot under very suspicious circumstances (security cameras caught what appears to be a woman being forced into her car in the hazy corner of their footage). the segment talked about the rewards offered, the suspects being searched for, the family’s pleas.

I clicked the off button on the remote and thought, with a certainty that frightens me to recollect, “she’s already dead.”

They discovered her body yesterday afternoon.

Every time I hear about anything like that on the news, I think for a brief moment, “That could be me/my sister/my best friend”.

I thought about her on the drive to work. And by this, I mean I thought about her and I thought about myself, in that we’re both women. As far as we know at this point, she was merely a young woman in a parking lot - I am that woman a lot of times too. And these horrible moments in time, regardless of how long the odds of them happening to any given woman are, exist for all women in the sense that we know it could happen to us. That we could walk out of a Target at 7:10 pm on a Saturday and not make it safely to our cars. that we could be the victims of such terrorism, such pointed destruction, such punishment.

And it is punishment. It’s punishment for that supreme sin that we all commit every day, that heinous offense �Living While Female.� Nothing galls our patriarchal society to see this offense on constant display - we walk about so freely, talking and making decisions, like we had some right to be acting with something resembling agency - and it makes every possible effort to discourage this behavior. Since we are all, however, such uppity b*** who for some reason refuse to take direction and quit being so evident all the time, force is often necessary. harassment, intimidation, abuse, rape, murder: the price we pay for breathing.

You know what makes me sad?, though, above and beyond all this? all this, for which I could already cry for a lifetime and despair until i die? what makes me so sad is that we believe it. We women believe, on some collective unconscious level, that the charges against us are true. And everything is our fault.

Women are perceived and treated, uniformly around the globe, as inferior and detestable beings yet we are not the ones committing the heinous crimes & creating constant war. You know what I wish? Well, I wish a lot of things, really, chief among them being that men would stop hating women so g******* much. because it’s not our fault. Whatever it is that actually drives that misogyny, whatever fear is actually coiled up at the bottom of that vast heart of darkness, it is most definitely not our fault. I wish we could start fighting back, all of us not just women.

So women - you women I know, you women I don’t, any women who happen to read this, women everywhere, right now - start by not apologizing. Don’t apologize for just being what you are - don’t apologize for the big and little things you do because you’re a woman, or because you’re a human being who happens to be a woman. don’t qualify your thoughts, your opinions, your feelings - don’t beat people to the punch of implying that they don’t matter. “I know this might sound stupid, but…” “i know this is a dumb question…” “this is going to sound silly…” And wear what you want to wear. How dare anyone imply we are the cause of the crimes men commit. In no way do any of us cause men to behave they way they do.

Women you are worth hearing., please, say it, ask it, take it, do it - demand freedom from male violence & don’t apologize for it.

There is nothing wrong with you. There IS something seriously wrong with a world that is filled with men who hunt women they don�t even know, for the sole purpose of rape & murder.

This has got to stop & men had better start doing something about it.

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

This has got to stop & men had better start doing something about it.

Try looking at the number of males a*******aulted by these specific males that are violent…it is LARGER that the number of women a*******aulted.

Then, after that settles in, look at how many of these get reported by the news…

That should give you a hint that “men” are not the problem. Violent men are the issue, and “men” cannot do anything about it; only societies can (men AND women).

But you are unable to learn, so why should we listen to you?

By JokesOn

June 7, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Q: How prevalent is domestic violence against men? What sources support this?

Research in the field of domestic violence over the past 25 years has generally shown that men and women act violent in relationships at about the same rate. Furthermore, men and women are equally likely to instigate violence against one another. The truth is surprisingly egalitarian: about half of all domestic violence occurs with both partners abusing each other. 25% occurs with only men assaulting women, and the other 25% occurs with only women assaulting men. [1]

1: Interview with Prof. Murray Straus of the UNH Family Research Lab. www.vortxweb.net/gorgias/mensissues/strausinterview.html

By GrLikeMe2

June 7, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

Jokeson your information is false plain & simple. And it has absolutely nothing to do with fact women are being wiped out everyday by men. For no reason other than they are women.

GrlJustLikeMe thanks so much for posting. You’re right. We do say “sorry” way too much. And it is a way to reinforce that we are the ones to blame when men commit crimes against us. I have been so upset for the past 24 hours since they found Kelsey’s body. My heart goes out to Kelsey’s family.

It is just so, so draining to be a female with all that we face (both presently and potentially with all of the attacked on women’s right, reproductive rights, etc.).

If we don’t do something to make it stop, it will only get worse, it seems to me. And guys are so out of control now It scares me half to death having to deal with more. How are we supposed to fight against this when most guys get angry if you even say anything? I had this discussion today in a class with mostly guys, and it p** them off. I held my ground … and held it, and held it, and held it, and held it … until finally they quieted themselves and accepted the fact that I was not going to apologize for speaking out.

I’m not sorry but I am saddened. I lived … but others haven’t and their voices have been silenced and that saddens me terribly.

Thank you for posting grl, thank you for having the courage.

I challenge us all to say, rather than “I’m sorry,” a big “Fouck you.” LOL And stop thinking you need to defend what women wear. We wear what we want to, shut the Fouck up & get some manners. Stop staring & commenting on every breast you see. That’s rude not natural male behavior. “Fouck YOU !” (OK THAT felt good)

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By Jeff in Roswell

June 8, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

GrLikeMe2 - have you sought Psychological Counseling?

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

Jokeson your information is false plain & simple.

I provided a link to the study (do a search for abused males - I dare ya…rofl).

This, once again, shows you have no idea what you are talking about - only that you are a bitter person because your parents let you grow up in Never-Never land. You coulnd not find someone to coddle you after 18 and are mad.

BOOOOORRRRINNG! lol

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Jeff in Roswell,

Her (I personally think it is a guy that is just messing with everyone) name actually is whiley, but will not post as that anymore because everyone knows she is WACK.

If a female confronts her she insists they MUST be a guy, and calls em vag!na haters; heh. She recommends castration of all males when in full-on crazy mode and writes like a 5yo; including the logic.

Her sole purpose on here is someone to poke at for fun.

Crack case. lol

By GrLikeMe2

June 8, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I’m not the one who needs help. There are a lot of psycho guys running around with a lot of pent up anger. What are they so angry about that kidnapping & killing a young woman makes them feel better? Or what about those guys that robbed that Mexican restaurant out here? One of the employees said not to hurt a woman working at the restaurant & one of the robbers shot him! It doesn’t sound like a big deal because it’s an everyday thing in this town. How messed up is that?!

I just realized Jeff that you reacted exactly like the guys in class yesterday. That is depressing as hell, ya’ll just don’t get it.

By GrLikeMe2

June 8, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

JokesOn is an example of one of many guys that gets a kick out of blasting women. JokesOn loves to put us down & make light of what we have to deal with in our daily lives. It doesn’t matter what we say or how we feel because our opinion means nothing. We have no right to complain about anything, ESPECIALLY if it has to do with men. JokesOn believes that women bring on whatever abuse, violence or harrassment men commit. It is our fault.

Why else would he be on his blog posting what he does? Sigh, ya’ll are correct to call him a dumb male. I don’t have time for this have to leave for class.

Women keep up the good work & don’t stop speaking out. over & out.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

I just realized Jeff that you reacted exactly like the guys in class yesterday.

Everyone (but lozen) reacts to you in the same manner. You are WACK!

Never mind the (now up to 36 in ONE state alone) mothers that killed themselves and their children. No issues there!lol

By A Question

June 8, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

OK so why DO these types of guys post on this blog? What are they getting out of it by acting abusive? GrlJustLikeMe thank you for your post yesterday.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

JokesOn—In your experience, have you ever known even ONE woman who ever took responsibility for her decisions in life? Occasionally I meet a woman who very reluctantly admits that they may be partly responsible for their decisions. Usually such admissions are followed by expressions of extreme bitterness, however.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

OK so why DO these types of guys post on this blog? What are they getting out of it by acting abusive? GrlJustLikeMe thank you for your post yesterday.

Look, Question, be fair, will you? Lots and lots of women come to this blog to b*** about how horrible men are. Isn’t it fair that a few men should be allowed to complain about what idiots women are in return?

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

Isn�t it fair that a few men should be allowed to complain about what idiots women are in return?

It is not even that. She, specifically, is WACK.

She would love to generalized my behavior to include ALL women, but cannot point to ANYTHING that proves that. It is her ONLY means of retaliation when someone points out her point is ful of s###t.

No Hope: I know where you are coming from, yet will not say none exist; only that none that I have met.

All the comments that cheer on whiley are in fact FROM whiley and lozen. Sickness! lol

By GrLikeMe2

June 8, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

Couldn’t help myself, just HAD to check back one more time, I knew Jokeson(NoHope) would say something stupid.

A Question, to ANSWER your question, It’s a male intimidation thing, really. Because it’s so fcking shocking to actually see a woman expressing an opinion intelligently, and gasp it’s a LIBERAL opinion that doesn’t involve wanting to coddle everyone and help men get ahead. I love that my boyfriend doesn’t treat me like some Stupid Little Girl who doesn’t know what’s she’s talking about because she can’t really think too hard with that tiny girl brain, not treating me like a raving nutcase whenever i talk about gender inequalities and male violence and privilege. He is more of a man than most, he understands & talks openly about the violence crisis. Honestly most guys are like my boyfriend, even tho there are WAY too many guys like JokesOn that help to continue the cycles of abuse.

JokesOn, the women here aren’t just “yapping” & venting about men. I’m not even going to debate that with you if you don’t know why women are standing up & fighting against male violence.
Please leave this blog, if you refuse how about letting everybody know why you get off harrassing women?

Ok NOW i’m out of here.

By Jeff in Roswell

June 8, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this

I was merely asking GrLikeMe2 if she has ever had any counseling considering the fact that she has had some issues with sexual harassment - or do I have the wrong person here? I’m an advocate of counseling in many forms and have been through sessions myself for various reasons. By GrLikeMe2 emphatically stating that she doesn’t need counseling makes me realize that I need to take her statements with a grain of salt.

It does a body and soul good to “talk” with professionals or if you’re religious - pastors, priests etc. We can’t make it on earth alone.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

No Hope: I know where you are coming from, yet will not say none exist; only that none that I have met.

Over the years, I have posed this same question to many men: Following an argument at home, what percentage of the time does your wife/girlfriend say she’s sorry vs. the man saying he’s sorry? In my poll, it’s nearly 100% of the time that the man apologizes, alomost 0 % the woman apologizes.

But I’m not b*** here, just trying to understand the “game” a little better.

By A Question

June 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Isn�t it fair that a few men should be allowed to complain about what idiots women are

What has that got to do with the young lady who was kidnapped & murdered this week? please explain. (Not attacking you Jokes)

:)

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

I never have or would defend the violent people of this world; but do defend those that are innocent - male and female. That just burns her up! rofl

We went through the WHOLE discussion, using REAL numbers, and proved that the umber of males that are violent is around .03% of the male population in america. She disregarded it with “That just seems way too low.”

It did not back her point that 99% of males are violent (she cannot comprehend that if 99%, fake number for example, of violence is done by males, that it does not translate to 99% of males are violent).

I even explained it in simple terms: 100% of hippos have four legs, but 99% of four legged creatures are NOT hippos.

Or, how many guys passed by the woman that was killed without even noticing her? And ONE was sick enough to do that? YOU do the math.

whiley will claim that all they guys thought about it, but only one acted on it!

Talk about misogyny?lol

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

Ok NOW i�m out of here.

Like I will believe that! lol

No Hope,

You will not get a straight answer.

But I�m not b* here, just trying to understand the �game� a little better.

What I have found is that you can find people that do not play a “game,” but thhe downside is that they, like us, are also pretty dulled by life at that point.

What I would like to know is where are the people that have a handle on the middle ground. It does not seem to exist.

Please leave this blog, if you refuse how about letting everybody know why you get off harrassing women?

Pointing out YOUR lack of reason is now harassing? Waaaaaa! It is a blog that anyone can participate and I will as long as I care to. lol

By Will you?

June 8, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Will you take personal responsibility for the payback you are about to receive?

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

GrLikeMe2 (whiley),

You talk as though you know me. That is an err in itself and shows an ability to generalize based on your bias.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Is it just me, or does all the multi-personality postings undercut any validity someone COULD even have on here?

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Will you take personal responsibility for the payback you are about to receive?

Can we just call it even and go on with our lives? You got your shots in, believe me. Isn’t the satisfaction of knowing you’re right enough?

To anyone on this blog who I offended, please have mercy. I’ll stay away and quit my b***.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Would you feel better if I killed myself?

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Would you feel better if I killed myself?

That you dog?

You let things shake you too much.

By WhileyFan

June 8, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Hey Whiley about now would be a good time to blog ! lozen where are you??

Back the the, er, discussion, I can say with 100% certainty that I have never worried about any woman attacking me, to rape & kill me ever while walking to my car, in my home, anywhere. I’ve yet to be in any danger or been harrassed by any woman no matter what choice of clothing I’ve worn. Ever. I cannot tell you how many times during my life men I don’t know had that “uncontrollable” reflex that makes them say, yell out, tell me something vulgar or make me fearful. And most of the time I was dressed “modestly”. Ugg don’t like that term. I wouldn’t consider that a hateful remark about men, but then again women aren’t a danger to me or go out of their way to make me uncomfortable. There’s really no other way to put it.

By MrRogers

June 8, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the concern, JokesOn.

I’ve been in a very bad way mentally the past 8 months or so, and am afraid that I have offended people. I pray said people will understand and just let it go.

Please, anyone who hates me, I’m just in a bad way, it’s nothing personal.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

I wouldn�t consider that a hateful remark about men, but then again women aren�t a danger to me or go out of their way to make me uncomfortable. There�s really no other way to put it.

Back to simple examples: I have never worried about a gerbil attacking me, but am cautious around Pit bulls. Does that in itself incriminate ALL dogs?

How you frame your issue IS offensive to those of us that are male, but are not violent. You state that it is a male issue and that is like blaming the Pug for the violence of the Pit-bull, and it will only alienate the Pug from helping you.

Really tired of going through this same crap.

By Archie

June 8, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

it�s nearly 100% of the time that the man apologizes, alomost 0 % the woman apologizes

I kinda agree with that one. Anyone see that Amanda Beard has posed nude for Playboy and she says it’s a business decision. I think this is a good thing because it shows to women she is in charge of herself and it shows the same thing to men as well and hopefully it shows the “puritan crowd” that women do make conscious,unforced decisions to take their clothes off. Also, maybe that man-hating thing(Whiley,Whileyfan,etc.) will understand women aren’t always the victim, because Amanda Beard said just that, she is no victim.

By Woman's view

June 8, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Apologies don’t mean much when they keep doing the thing they apologized for. I don’t apologize that often, but when I’m wrong I do, and I mean it.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

To all: I’ve promised to leave before, but this is it. I’m not sure who “Will you?” is, but I think this person is serious in wanting to harm me.

Please let it go, “Will you”. I won’t bother you or anyone else again. I’m a low-life—don’t come down to my level. Keep your head high and know you were right. Let your record stay good. Everyone here knows I’m trash. Don’t be trash like me, you’re better than that.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Apologies don�t mean much when they keep doing the thing they apologized for. I don�t apologize that often, but when I�m wrong I do, and I mean it.

Woman’sView: What kind of help do I need? Anger management?

I want to change. Please help. I don’t want to be an angry male anymore.

By No Hope

June 8, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Last Dog post: Beware of fake Dog posters in the future. I’ll take responsibility for my messes, but don’t want to be blamed for other posters’ shenanigans. Maybe that’s the price I have to pay for being such an as-hole.

Please dig deep and have some mercy on me, “Will You”.

By weary traveler

June 8, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-women6jun06,1,2514904.story?coll=la-headlines-world

exceprts from “In Saudi Arabia, a view from behind the veil”—

I spent my days in Saudi Arabia struggling unhappily between a lifetime of being taught to respect foreign cultures and the realization that this culture judged me a lesser being. I would find that I still saw scraps of Saudi Arabia everywhere I went. Back home in Cairo, the usual cacophony of whistles and lewd coos on the streets sent me into blind rage. I slammed doors in the faces of deliverymen; cursed at Egyptian soldiers in a language they didn’t speak; kept a resentful mental tally of the Western men, especially fellow reporters, who seemed to condone, even relish, the relegation of women in the Arab world. ………….. The sleeves (of the abaya), the length of it, always felt foreign, at first. But it never took long to work its alchemy, to plant the insecurity. After a day or two, the notion of appearing without the robe felt shocking. Stripped of the layers of curve-smothering cloth, my ordinary clothes suddenly felt revealing, even garish. To me, the abaya implied that a woman’s body is a distraction and an interruption, a thing that must be hidden from view lest it haul the society into vice and disarray. ……………. ONE glaring spring day, when the hot winds raced in off the plains and the sun blotted everything to white, I stood outside a Riyadh bank, sweating in my black cloak while I waited for a friend….The door clattered open, and I looked up hopefully. But no, it was a security guard. And he was stomping straight at me….he barked: “Go! Go! You can’t stand here! The men can SEE! The men can SEE!”

I looked down at him and sighed. I was tired. “Where do you want me to go? I have to wait for my friend. He’s inside.” But he was still snarling and flashing those teeth, arms akimbo. He wasn’t interested in discussions.

“Not here. NOT HERE! The men can SEE you!” He flailed one arm toward the bank……..The pit bull advanced toward me, making little shooing motions with his hands, lips curled back. Involuntarily, I stepped back a few paces and found myself in the shrubbery. I guess that, from the bushes, I was hidden from the view of the window, thereby protecting the virtue of all those innocent male bankers. At any rate, it satisfied the pit bull, who climbed back onto the sidewalk and stood guard over me. I glared at him. He showed his teeth. The minutes passed. Finally, my friend reemerged.

A liberal, U.S.-educated professor at King Saud University, he was sure to share my outrage, I thought. Maybe he’d even call up the bank � his friend was the manager � and get the pit bull in trouble. I told him my story, words hot as the pavement.

He hardly blinked. “Yes,” he said. “Oh.” He put the car in reverse, and off we drove.

Seems like many men, even the supposedly “enlightened” western men, see the subjegation of women as no big deal.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

“Many” is a word that only leaves you guessing; guessing about a thing, you really aught’a know.

“Many” is quite different than “most” or “all.” While I personally appreciate the difficulty you faced, I can factually state that “many” women act this way or that.

Dog,

This resonate with how you are feeling?

Does anybody here remember Vera Lynn Remember how she said that We would meet again Some sunny day Vera! Vera! What has become of you Does anybody else in here Feel the way I do ?

By TheRestOfTheStory

June 8, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Hello everyone.
Here’s a couple topic-pertinant + interesting facts you probably didn’t know….

Miss Glass: Ever so quick + willing to cast those verbal darts at everyone else (especially men) for their behaviors + thoughts that affect others, but so reluctant to turn that same unforgiving standard on her own actions + words.

Reconsider her statements knowing that she filed (and lost) a frivolous (as defined by the court) Sexual Harrasment lawsuit against one of her former employers. (It didn’t help that she was sending sexually suggestive emails to co-workers). She was terminated a month later.

Reconsider her past/current/future comments, (and her use of psychiatric terminology like schizoid narcissist [sp]), when you learn of her documentent 20+ years of mental health issues.

Consider the source….

Note also, that miss Glass always uses the same 3 logical mistakes (fallacies) in her arguments;
1. false dichotomy (claiming only 2 positions exist when many more in fact do) -a professional dresscode is too taliban, so the only other option is none at all. Black and white thinking. In reality, shades of grey are all about us.
2. appeal to emotion (use emotive words v. factual words to get people on her side, vs. using an actual logical argument. 3. the ad hominum (attack the messenger personally) argument - Shaunti is far more disturbed by clevage than the avg. male - a person could be a complete piece of trash….but that doesn’t mean their point is invalid. Separate the point from the person.

How do I know?…..from being one of the few people in her private life. Maybe I’ll share some of her writings you havent’ seen.

more later…

By chuck

June 8, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Wow. Ya’ll are having some real fun this week. Whiley, nutty as usual, jokeson still can’t put together a coherent, grammatically correct sentence, and dog is apologizing. Nothing ever changes here. Will the last original blogger here please turn the computer off?

By DUMBmaleALLERT

June 8, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

How do I know?�..from being one of the few people in her private life. Maybe I�ll share some of her writings you havent� seen.

YOU must be a woman-hating male, on the hunt for another woman to shut up. Isn’t that sweet of you. Does it make you feel like you have a bigger peniz? ROFL !

By Andrea

June 8, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

He hardly blinked. �Yes,� he said. �Oh.� He put the car in reverse, and off we drove.

Wow, that right there says it all. That “oh” reaction is world wide.

HEY Chuck where have you been? You’re right nothing changes around here lol. It all starts with a good sexist topic then it all falls apart from there.

By chuck

June 8, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

As for the topic, of course PROVOCATIVE dress should be included in the definition of sexual harassment. From dictionary.com:

pro�voc�a�tive
�adjective 1. tending or serving to provoke; inciting, stimulating, irritating, or vexing.

This is really a no-brainer. I had a student who came to school dressed like a…well you know. We talked to her and her mother over and over again trying to get them to understand that her manner of dress was not appropriate for school (or just about anywhere else for that matter). We finally had to start sending her home to change clothes when she came to school that way. The whole point of that kind of dress is to provoke a reaction out of males. IF they respond in the way the dress was designed to entice, then THE MEN get in trouble in the workplace.

I can guarantee you that if a man came in with pants so low they exposed any part of his package, he would be fired on the spot. This really is a double standard. Women have accomplished exactly what they set out to do. Women have gotten men so afraid in the work place, that they can get away with just about anything if it in any way is gender related. Supervisors are afraid if they say anything about improper dress, that they themselves will be accused of harassment.

Provocative dress in the work place is unprofessional and should not be allowed…for men OR women.

By chuck

June 8, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Hey Andrea, just hangin out. School is out and there are no computers in the gym. I’ve been running a sports camp all week. We let out early today because of the heat.

By GOB

June 8, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Chuck - our school actually has a few sets of medical scrubs that the kids have to wear if they break the dress code. A few times in those and the situation usually gets fixed.

By chuck

June 8, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

If any of the regulars come back, let’s take a poll. How many of you think that dog’s 37th “final post” really is his final post?

My vote is, NO. Unfortunately he will be back.

By Archie

June 8, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

I can guarantee you that if a man came in with pants so low they exposed any part of his package, he would be fired on the spot. This really is a double standard. Women have accomplished exactly what they set out to do. Women have gotten men so afraid in the work place, that they can get away with just about anything if it in any way is gender related. Supervisors are afraid if they say anything about improper dress, that they themselves will be accused of harassment.

Chuck, I agree with most of what you say on this topic. I would probably say some women rather than just women in general. Most women dress appropiately everywhere I see them. Some women want to control things because of what they like not because certain things are offensive. If you can cuss like a sailor and pass on an off-color joke via email then a screensaver shouldn’t bother you. Most posts went off on a tangent but a few posters did answer the actual topic question. I could not file a claim against any female where I work but I answered the way I did because there needs to be some balance when it comes to sexual harassment.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

jokeson still can�t put together a coherent, grammatically correct sentence

“Whiley, nutty as usual, jokeson still can�t put together a coherent, grammatically correct sentence, and dog is apologizing.”

Idiot, this is a blog, and is is considered the to use unconventional methods of communication; like SIOYA. The ideas are present and easily understood. They also contain logic, which you know nothing about.

Go back to ?teaching? dinosaurs lived with humans.

By WTF?

June 8, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

Should that be SIUYA.?

By Andrea

June 8, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Women have gotten men so afraid in the work place, that they can get away with just about anything if it in any way is gender related.

lol then I must really have my boss terrified ! He’s always asking me if I want to join him for lunch at a strip club that’s nearby. I know he is kidding, but it gets really old. That’s not all he does, it’s mostly subtle stuff. I’m not being paranoid just have to ignore it because I really do like the job & it pays well. Speaking of that, I also have flex hours to avoid traffic. Would love to stay and chat but it’s time ! Chuck you’re mouthy at times but it’s still good to see you.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Should that be SIUYA.?

That does work also, as does HTYUFG;)

By Monica

June 8, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

Hey GOB! Medical scrubs, I like that idea…

At my old school, we formed the BBB patrol - boobs, butt, and belly. Anyone caught violating the BBB rules was given appropriate clothing!

Then we added an additional B - boxer shorts. We started giving zip ties to the poor boys with pants that are 8 sizes too large and no belt to hold them up.

BTW - it’s raining at my house for the first time in a month. YEA!!! :)

By DumbFemaleAllert

June 8, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

to DumbMaleAllert: you are just proving yourself to be a dumb female based on your purely emotional and conjectured response:

YOU must be a woman-hating male, on the hunt for another woman to shut up. Isn’t that sweet of you. Does it make you feel like you have a bigger peniz? ROFL !

Presuming that anyone that points out Diane’s lack of logic and standing must be male with a small ‘peniz’, shows your own hatred of the opposite sex. She may very well be female. I agree with her. And, you seem to use the very same logic errors that she mentioned!

So quick to hate and presume. Do you feel you make a good role model to anyone?

By DumbMaleAlert2DumbFemaleAlertWondering

June 8, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

So finally this blog has gotten so intellectual in all the coding of even poster names? and sioya and siuya and HTYUFG?

I am going back to the cross-word puzzles.

By JokesOn

June 8, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

I am going back to the cross-word puzzles.

Crossing fingers!!!!!

By Good gay!

June 8, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

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By Good gay!

June 8, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

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By Good gay!

June 8, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

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By Good gay!

June 8, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this

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