AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2007 > May > 30 > Entry
Should the definition of workplace sexual harassment be expanded to include provocative dress?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
In California, a guy can be sued for looking at a woman the wrong way at work. But what if the woman is wearing the latest style in a tight shirt, low-riding pants …and a thong that peeks out when she sits at her desk? Now, turn the tables: what if her male co-workers don’t want that distraction every time they meet with her, or walk by her desk? What if men just want to concentrate on their jobs, but find it difficult around attire that - even unintentionally — invites sexual thoughts?
Most men have learned to avoid even unintentional sexual harassment at work. Women should hold themselves to the same standard, and learn what clothes create an unwanted sexual environment. Some women will say “it’s none of their business what I wear; they shouldn’t be looking.” But my research of more than 1,500 men for my book For Women Only: What You Need to Know About the Inner Lives of Men, showed that that attitude is not based on reality.
In the survey for that book, 98% of men said that even if they try not to stare (which 18% did), they can’t not notice someone calling attention to a good figure. And many women don’t realize that form-fitting clothes often trigger sexual thoughts that men have to fight to concentrate on work.
Although I know of no such cases, provocative dress sure seems to fit the EEOC definition of sexual harassment: “verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature [that] unreasonably interferes with an individual’s work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.”
Debra Benton, president of Benton Management Resources shared in an interview that, “Men simply look at women differently than women look at men. Women want to look stylish, and say ‘I was just wearing the latest fashion,’ but men think they are suggesting sex. Women are naïve if they believe men don’t think that way.”
It’s a shame that organizations have had to bring in trainers like me and Debra Benton to wake up female employees to these realities. I hope women make lawsuits unnecessary by realizing that non-suggestive attire is not only better for the men around them: it’s better for their career, too.
Rebuttal
My heartfelt thanks go out to Ms. Benton and Ms. Feldhahn for educating women everywhere about how showing cleavage manipulates. Maybe these classes should be followed by even more obvious lessons about how women get pregnant, flowers bloom and bees sting.
On one point I agree: Revealing too much skin at the office can bite women in another sexually provocative area before they get to climb the corporate ladder the old-fashioned way. The kind of attention garnered would more likely result in private demerits than in career enhancement. But mandating dress is a little too Taliban for my taste. There’s no need to resort to extremes.
Like, say, Shaunti’s claim that men in California can be sued for looking at a woman the wrong way. If this were actually true, all of Hollywood would be engaged in sexual harassment lawsuits. Anyone can file a frivolous lawsuit. Legitimate claims require navigating legal labyrinths based on law, not mere whimsy and passing glances.
My guess is that Shaunti is far more disturbed by women’s cleavage than your average man. If a man is bothered by revealing clothing, he can visit the human resources office and file a complaint based on this repeated behavior. Or, he can voice his discomfort before making a formal claim. This is fair.
What isn’t fair is to demand that women conform to a dress code that is subjective and insulting, a policy that assumes women are responsible for themselves and the actions of men.
Women’s clothing isn’t confusing to men, but the response of conservative women about women’s workplace clothing is. In the1980s, anti-feminists laughed at career women wearing mannish two-piece suits. Today, they’re asking women to leave their frilly little things at home. Next, they’ll be telling women to don burkas because their hair is too provocative.
These mixed messages aren’t surprising. We communicate this to women every day: Pose for Playboy. Pose for a family portrait. Be sexy. Be pure. Maybe we should clean out the skeletons in our own closet before asking Shaunti to organize it.
Comments
By kimberly
June 4, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
Geez, Shaunti, lighten up! So your husband checked out my blouse. Who cares? I mean, are you so insecure in your marriage that you freak out at the thought of him sharing an elevator with a well-figured woman? Or perhaps, because YOU say so, I should wear baggy, unattractive clothing that neither fits nor flatters my own body, that I’ve worked through diet and exercise to maintain. Nevermind that I, too, might wish to join the millions of Americans who attracted a spouse in the workplace. If it will make YOU feel better, why don’t I just hide behind some hideously matronly size 12 pup tents, and grow old alone? The satisfaction of knowing YOUR husband never checked out MY form will keep me warm and happy in my golden years, mmmm-kay?
Geeeeezusss.
By Mara
June 4, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this
I’m shocked that it’s the “conservative” that’s advocating making women legally responsible for what a man thinks. Harrassment legislation was instituted to protect women from what some men do. What’s next? Making it illegal to employ anyone considered “too attractive” because their co-workers can’t help but be distracted when they’re around?
And don’t most offices already have dress codes? Isn’t that why we have things like “casual Friday’s”, “Hawaii day” (loudest tropical garb), and “Sports day” (sports jerseys, t-shirts, etc.)? I agree with Diane on this. Just as a woman, if she feels harrassed, goes to her H.R. office and speaks with them about it, so should a man feel free to go in and express his discomfort with the attire of his female co-worker. If a guy walked around all day with his zipper undone or his shirt un-buttoned to the navel you can bet someone would say something about it being inappropriate for the office. Women wearing inappropriate clothing to the work should be held to the same standards. Not because of what people think but because most companies want to project a professional image…and unless you work in the fashion industy, that isn’t a micromini and strappy sandals.
By Chilao
June 4, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
Personally, I could care less how much cleavage a woman may be showing. However, where I would lack control, as a leery-man unable to control myself(now, keep in mind if I actually WAS one), is a woman looking like a librarian or bookworm geek, preferably with glasses.
So women, if you need to wear glasses, be careful out there. LOL
Why, this one library I go to has a super-hot-babe there, she always dresses modestly, with wide/loose summer-skirt type skirts that fall well below the knees. But to see her checking books out for someone on the other side of the counter, wow! (this library has a square center place, with check-outs on both sides, so we are talking the view of the loose billowing skirt from behind). LMAO
In short, it is all in the mind of the viewer.
By GOB
June 4, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
Companies could just start installing burka racks at every entrance. That way, no man would ever have to think about anything other than getting that TPS report in on time.
By NetBanker
June 4, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
Hey kids! Happy Monday to all!
While I do not think that clothing should be added to the definition of workplace sexual harassment I understand Shaunti’s position to a point about inappropriate clothing being a distraction. In my own experiences of watching corporate America move from business dress to business casual there have been a few cases of people inappropriately dressed for work, but since business casual is the norm I have seen very few. “Wearing the latest style in a tight shirt, low-riding pants …and a thong that peeks out” in most work situations is inappropriate. The proper response is to counsel the employee about appropriateness of dress for the work environment and send them home to change. While there is no accounting for taste, most people know where to draw the line in what they wear to work. On those rare occasions where I have been asked about dress code for causal days at work my advise has been “If you wouldn’t wear it to a church picnic, don’t wear it to work.”
Totally off topic, but waaaay too funny to wait until Friday:
http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=823359685&channel=823449204
By Bruce
June 4, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this
I find it hard to believe that for years women complained about sexual harassment in the workplace until there were laws created to outlaw it. And I have no problem with the laws. But now that the laws they fought to get established are being used against them they are saying the same things men said back before the laws. “Geez, lighten up!” Can yoiu say I want my cake and eat it too?
By NetBanker
June 4, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
In the spirit of fairness shouldn’t this apply across the board? There are a couple of men in my office who wear tight pants and shirts that show off their tight buns, muscular chests, and pumped up arms. It’s definitely distracting for me and a few of the women I work with…I know this because we’ve talked about it. On the complete other side of the coin what about the overweight people whose clothing ends up too tight just because of their size? Or the distractions of the extremely homely? Maybe everyone should have to wear burkas.
By kimberly
June 4, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this
But now that the laws they fought to get established are being used against them they are saying the same things men said back before the laws. “Geez, lighten up!” Can yoiu say I want my cake and eat it too?
WTF are you talking about? Laws I “fought for” are being used against me? Wha? And suddenly I want cake? (Yuk.) Put the BONG down, dude. I had my share of inappropriate attention in the workplace, especially in my 20’s. Ninety-five percent of it was resolved to my satisfaction when I stood up for myself in a firm voice and a clear statement that I was not interested. But I can see how YOU would think someone else’s jack-a— behavior would be my fault. So nice to hear from you again.
By Mara
June 4, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this
Bruce - there’s a big difference between making it illegal to for you to grab your secretary’s a$$ and making it illegal for her to wear an attractive outfit, just in case it makes you think lewd thoughts about her. Actions and thoughts…see the difference? You control what you do, but you can’t control what other people think…
By Lyrazel
June 4, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this
A young endowed woman straight out of high-school came to work bra-less. It was her first job. Her way of dress was improper for being at the counter position of sales so I asked her to wear one at work and she did. She worked 6 more years without incident. As a business owner I have had to address issues of clothing mainly for employee safety. I let my employees wear what they want for the most part because its a hot, noisy plant. Shorts and t-shirts and jeans are most of what is worn especially in summer. We do not allow neckties worn around the press or long necklaces and hair has to be tied back and secured and no sandals or open-toe shoes. I am more concerned with their welfare than style. There have been zero sexual harassment cases or incidents.
I think Shaunti has her knickers in a twist like many wives do when confronted with the fact where their husband works where there are younger, or attractive women who dress stylishly. Its difficult for some wives to believe their husbands don’t SEE as much as visiting wives do. Ask him what Becky was wearing and he would shrug and say: something purple. SHE might know its a tank top with the embroidered words Precious in jersey fabric, a suede micro miniskirt and 6 inch heels…
I take an issue with the fact Shaunti AGAIN degrades women in her column. In Shaunti’s world women must change, because women befuddle these helpless good men trying to do their jobs. I dont think Shaunti likes women. It is rare when has she anything good to say about women.
By Bruce
June 4, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
The problem is that not many women are like you Kimberly. The first thing alot of women do is hire a lawyer. I have been through the sexual harassment classes and came away feeling that if I said so much as “Good Morning” to a female employee I could be sued for sexual harassment. And the way things are now-a-days even if a male is found not guilty by a court his career is probably over, his wife has probably taken the kids and gone, and all he has left is a cardboard box under the “E” Street Bridge.
Again, I believe we need laws to protect from sexual harassment but as Net said, make it apply across the board.
By Bruce
June 4, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this
That is so true Mara, but in all the classes I have been through even a look can be considered sexual harassment. The only person that has to think it is sexual harassment is the person that feels offended. Please notice I said “FEELS” because that is all it takes.
A person can take you to court for sexual harassment on just a feeling and nothing more. No words or gesters have to be exchanged. You can be standing in a hallway talking to an employee and another employee over hear the conversation and bring charges against you.
By kimberly
June 4, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
The first thing alot of women do is hire a lawyer.
B-llsh-t. Who? How many do YOU know? Go do a survey and get back to us with the numbers. (1) Have you ever incurred inappropriate comments at work, of a sexual nature? (Most, if not all women — and some men — will say yes.) (2) Did you run out and get a laywer? (Let us know your percentages, okay? And don’t forget to ask how much cash they had to lay out up front to actually have these “laws” enforced…)
Then go down to the “E-street bridge” and tell me if you see Clarence Thomas down there… D’OH!
By Rectilinear Propagation
June 4, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this
Bruce, just stop staring at women’s chests.
Seriously, is this even an issue? What office lets people dress the way Shaunti describes?
By NetBanker
June 4, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this
What office lets people dress the way Shaunti describes? The business office of a strip club or massage parlor. That mode of dress probably IS the dress code.
By James
June 4, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this
Not in great numbers, but I have seen a thong or two and it is distracting. And I’m part of that 18% not trying to look out of honor for God and my marriage. Sometimes form-fitting tops are too tight, and given that lots of office buildings are kept cool, one can’t help but see women’s chest saying, in effect, “hello!” Even when trying not too.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this
If any of you ladies here are looking to succeed at work—or find a good husband—you might strongly consider saving the provocative dress/behaviors for your private times with your special man.
Let the man fall in love with you for the right reasons, and you might be surprised to learn that fairy tales CAN come true.
By Mara
June 4, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel - LOL @ “women befuddle these helpless good men trying to do their jobs”
which brings to mind a post from Andrew Sullivan a while back titled “Harlots” -
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/thedailydish/2007/week12/index.html
and the Feministe rebuttal of the issue -
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/22/christian-warriors-fighting-immodesty-one-guilt-inducing-erection-at-a-time/
By Mara
June 4, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this
looks like James and DfS subscribe to the opinions from Andy’s letter writer…
“Many women would think guys are ‘all about’ women who flaunt their bodies. I am here to attempt to speak for us Christian men fighting the fight for purity. Women like this disgust and frustrate me. They take advantage of something that God intended to be beautiful. They lure men away from that which they truly love. They make men like me fight and struggle, and cause many to fall”
see, ladies? It’s all our faults…ROTFLMAO!!!
By Lily Toad
June 4, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
And how does showing cleavage fit this definition: provocative dress sure seems to fit the EEOC definition of sexual harassment: “verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature [that] unreasonably interferes with an individual’s work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.”
Sexy dress creates a intimidating, hostile or offensive workplace? Breasts thrust in front of my face may interfere with my work, but I don’t get that just from walking by someone dressing sexily.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this
see, ladies? It’s all our faults…ROTFLMAO!!!
If all you want to do is play the blame game, Mara, unfortunately, you’re going to “win” every time. Sure, men are pigs. I admit it freely. So what does that get you? A quick roll in the hay on Friday night and no one there to cut the grass on Saturday morning.
My suggestion to you is this: The male “attractive” force is there for the taking for you ladies. Ultimately, all men are P-whipped. Smart ladies recognize this and play the game fairly, and wisely. When we men feel as if we are being treated fairly, we will do anything at all for you, and with a smile on our faces. Part of the game is letting the man believe he is the most important person in the Universe to you. You don’t even have to do an especially good acting job. We’re easy.
By GOB
June 4, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this
And I’m part of that 18% not trying to look out of honor for God and my marriage.
Anyone here listen to This American Life on NPR? They had a segment a few weeks ago about a guy that was raised as an evangelical christian, and was told that by even looking at a woman’s body was “committing adultery in his heart.” When he asked his pastor what he should do, he was told to go to sex addicts anonymous…the kid was 22 and had never had sex or even masturbated…high comedy.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this
Of course, in return, you have to have the courage to speak up and let your wants and desires be known as well—hopefully in a dignified, non-whiny way. Too many of y’all expect us to be mind readers.
Sometimes I almost wish I were a woman. Life would be easy.
By kimberly
June 4, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this
Yaaaaaawwwwwwnnnn!!
By JokesOn
June 4, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this
What is the appropriate thing to do when you have a high level official (from congress) coming and the women, some professional and some student workers, DO have thongs showing as well as no bra’s?
There are a lot of photos going to be taken as well, making it even more of an issue.
We had a meeting regarding this very issue because the director was concerned that if these women were addressed specifically, that TOO could be terms for harassment.
Our solution was to send a company wide email asking to dress very professional which did work.
I still had the feeling that we had to address many women that do dress appropriately, and all the men that already do as well.
Once again ending in the majority of people having to suck it up for the few that are the issue.
If one drew gender lines on this issue, NONE of the guys would be applicable. Is this not significant?
By MrRogers
June 4, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this
There goes the neighborhood.
By JokesOn
June 4, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this
Sure, men are pigs. I admit it freely.
Isn’t that the equivalent of women are sluts?
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this
Isn’t that the equivalent of women are sluts?
Personally, I do think sexual energy is very pig/slut-like, JokesOn. At the same time, we have a “chivalrous” side to us as well, which is the part of us that allows us to get along once the sex is over with. Some of the ladies I’ve dated inspired that chivalrous side and got the best of me. Others only inspired the pig side.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this
Did you make it to the RW show, JokesOn? It was like one big orgasm, wasn’t it? We were actually on the front row on the side of the stage. When Roger walked on the catwalk on the right side of the sstage, he was about 10 feet from us. He waved and spoke to us a few times.
Gotta say, it was even better than seeing “The Wall” in 1980.
By Lyrazel
June 4, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this
Women should not wear breasts to the office otherwise the hapless men might staple their fingers to their spreadsheets…
However when breasts go sagging men don’t seem to have that ogling problem, somehow they stop looking after perky succumbs to gravity, also if that women be overweight she never suffers the ogling stapler jockeys. Perhaps that is why older women have a difficult time re-entering the workplace.
I will say I have seen women and men come to interviews looking like they dressed for a date and smelling like they just came out of an after-shave bottling plant but it is seldom a gorgeous gal with an impeccable figure nor the handsome studly dude; usually its someone who sadly does not have anything else to wear that is fancy enough for a job interview…someone who needs this job…someone expecting a man to interview her/him, too. Wink.
By JokesOn
June 4, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this
Personally, I do think sexual energy is very pig/slut-like, JokesOn.
It is just energy to me and if applied in a crass way can equate either, yet in different styles. But, you addressed this same notion.
It was like one big orgasm, wasn’t it? Damn good show, but short of orgasmic;)
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this
The Libs here will be pleased to know that Roger Waters slammed Bush several times during the Pink Floyd show a couple of weeks ago. On the back of the big flying pink pig it said “Impeach Bush Now”. I laughed my a* off.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this
HOW I WISH
HOW I WISH YOU WERE HERE
WE’RE JUST TWO LOST SOULS SWIMMIN’ IN A FISH BOWL
YEAR AFTER YEAR
.
RUNNIN’ OVER THE SAME OLD GROUND
WHAT HAVE WE FOUND
THE SAME OLD FEARS
WISH YOU WERE HERE
By JoAnne
June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this
Bruce, I’m with you altho I’m not really sure I understand your point in your first post when you say “Have their cake and eat it too.” They want to wear dresses and wear the pants, go to work and be given equal opportunity in hiring but quit when baby comes along and they change their mind and want to be home with junior. I think women want more and more and more but will never be happy because this is a man’s world. To wit, the number of angry women who regularly post here. Back in the 60s when me and my sisters fought for birth control so we could be liberated and not have to have babies if we chose not to, I look around me and say what a waste. Doesn’t anyone even bother to use it any more? I am for women and men feeling good about themselves and dressing nicely, plus you have to buy the clothes that are currently available, but I think a woman misuses her sexual power with cleavage on parade and such. A generously proportioned woman and I were talking in the break room and she said when you’re a large woman this is how clothes fit you; well aren’t there less low cut clothes? Why can’t one wear a tailored shirt underneath a jacket instead of a cut-to-there t-shirt. Maybe I’m a fuddy duddy. But it’s getting to be that some clothes look just the same as clothes to be worn in the privacy of one’s home and relationship; is it a turn on if they’re both the same? I also realize that each generation is horrified at how the world is going to Hades in a handbasket because of the behavior of the current culture.
By Dress For Success
June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this
Damn good show, but short of orgasmic;)
Well, my date claimed she had 5 orgasms during the show. That was good enough for me. ; > }
By Creed
June 4, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this
However when breasts go sagging men don’t seem to have that ogling problem, somehow they stop looking after perky succumbs to gravity, also if that women be overweight she never suffers the ogling stapler jockeys. Perhaps that is why older women have a difficult time re-entering the workplace.
Swing low, sweet chariot, I say…
By JokesOn
June 4, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this
Another discussion that cannot be had honestly.
Yawn is right.
Example: what would your impression be of a guy that wear his shirt 5 buttons down and a bush of chest-hair emerging?
My response is the same for cleavage: I really do not need to see that much of you - nor should have to. As Lyrazel pointed out, unless your 22ish, keep your stretch-marks to yourself - pleeeeeeze.
By kt1066
June 5, 2007 8:57 AM | Link to this
This discussion of women’s clothing distracting men to the point of being harassment is yet more evidence for an observation. Straight men are too easily distracted, too fragile, too high-strung to work with anyone different from them. For example, women start attending military academies, and who gets their knickers in a wad? The men. Gays in the military? Upsets the straight men too much. Women in the office? Again, the straight men are the ones who are getting distracted by clothing and complaining. And they want to claim it’s the woman’s fault? “She is bothering me by being too attractive! Make her get ugly!” The answer is not to exclude women and gay men, but to send the easily disturbed straight men home to mind the house and associate with other straight men homemakers, and let women and gay men run the world, since they are the ones who seem to work well with others.
By catlady
June 5, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this
I am glad if co-workers complain to their supervisors about inappropriate dress, and let the boss address it. From a man’s point of view, I don’t know how I’d feel. I have worked in one school where a new teacher came in dressed and made up like a streetwalker (short, short skirts, heels, see-through blouses, clown makeup). While the principal leered, the rest of us (male and female) just groaned and she quickly became the joke of the office, sort of like being “Cheneyed”. She even, at one point, accused the principal of harassment and he was fired! Now, 20 years later, she still comes to school dressed for streetwalking, but she doesn’t look nearly as good as she used to, so folks laugh when they see her. It’s almost like a community joke, with bets placed as to how far she will go next. Apparently none of her supervisors or friends has ever told her she needs to be a little more conservative in her dress/makeup at work, or she declined to follow their advice. They should have addressed it long ago, not for the harassment of the men (which may be), but because of the poor image it makes for the school. My son, who was six at the time, remembers her well and has commented on her appearance 20 years later! That would be the definition of “over the top”.
By Gentle G
June 5, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this
There’s nothing HOTTER than a well dressed professional woman in a suit, with hair back and blouse buttoned! All that VH1 / MTV looking fashion has it’s place, but it’s not at work, unless you’re an artist, musician, entertainer etc. Save it for after work and weekends pleeease!
By Ann
June 5, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this
It seems as though the workforce has forgotten what it means to be “decent.” Women today are confirming to provocative attire in the workplace more and more. As a woman, may I ask the question - “why do you want to go around with your chest out which looks like your butt on your chest.” It is provocative and very innappropriate in the office! Women are mirroring hollywood - “get what you want through sex.” As a young woman as well - I’m appalled by this behavior in the workplace. Many women PREFER to look like w******* now and it is disgusting !
By Mara
June 5, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this
catlady - sort of like being “Cheneyed”
she was “accidently” shot in the face?! Huh? and that’s what passes as a joke around your office?
She even, at one point, accused the principal of harassment and he was fired!
You sound like you think she was a liar. If the principle was “leering” at her on her first day, how do you know he wasn’t harrassing her?
By JH
June 5, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
Let’s be clear. If you are going to make the claim that it is inappropriate for a man to look at a women’s provocative dress, than it should also be inappropriate for a woman to dress provocatively. One is just as foolish as the next. The sexual harassment law went overboard. If a woman dresses in a way that warrants attention and a man looks, so be it. If you don’t want the attention don’t wear the outfit. If you wear the outfit and receive the attention, don’t complain. Simple.
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Mara, I was just thinking the same thing! I absolutely don’t believe for a second anyone gets fired for “leering.” Just doesn’t happen unless there’s other, tangible, documented inappropriate behavior, and there’s lots of leering going on! Still, that goes back to the “he can’t control himself so it’s her fault” argument which is, IMO, lame. Catlady has a point, though, regarding those whose wardrobe choices are “over the top.” They’re really only hurting themselves. That being said, you don’t have to be “over the top” for the men to stop and stare, as Gentle G pointed out. Jealous shrews will cluck their disapproving tongues about a woman who puts a tailored suit on a smokin’ bod as well. Human nature, I guess.
By JokesOn
June 5, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
Seems the discussion, for the most part, is returning back to sanity: There is responsibility on BOTH sides.
By Richard
June 5, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
Of course Diane Glass likes to dress scantilly. From her opinions, you can tell she’s just a w*******.
By nita
June 5, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this
business casual is turning into club 9-5. Women are wearing the wrong clothes into the workplace. Some even have the nerve to wear “come and get me” heels as my dad used to call them. Anything over 3” is inappropriate in the work place. More than an inch of cleavage is too much. What happened to women showing the younger generation of young ladies what is and isn’t appropriate in all areas of life?
By Archie
June 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this
My response to the topic question is yes. Shanti is right that a stare can be considered sexual harassment because I have been told that it could and I have been told that jokes or even a screensaver depending on how it looks can be considered harassment. What’s appropiate dress should be spelled out for both men and women and it is here at my workplace. Neither men or women get to do anything they want as far as dress goes and that’s the way it should be. I think Diane is just playing the devil’s advocate on this topic because Shanti makes a reasonable argument. This topic was also discussed yesterday on the Michael Baisden radio show. Some,some people simply need to be told how to dress and it doesn’t matter the gender but since we’re talking about the manner of dress of women then yes they should subjected to the same all-emcompassing definition of sexual harassment that men are.
By Mara
June 5, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this
kimberly - you don’t have to be “over the top” for the men to stop and stare
too true! Though I agree that “professional” attire should be expected (and enforced) in the workplace, I’m really pretty shocked at how many posters seem to think that if a man behaves inappropriately at work, the fault must be what the woman is wearing. Like JH, for example.
“If a woman dresses in a way that warrants attention and a man looks, so be it”
Seems to me that there’s not much difference between saying someone who is being harrassed deserved it because she did wear that “short skirt, see-through top, and clown make-up” (and what did she expect, anyway…) and the woman who is “asking” to be raped when she goes out in that short skirt, heels, low cut blouse etc.
Maybe the topic question should be “Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?”
By Staceye
June 5, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this
When I first moved to Atlanta from NYC, where the styles are totally different, I had a problem with women more so than men. I was harrassed by hating jealous women who made a stink about what I wore. My attire was never provocative. But since I was not a skinny woman with nothing to look at or a fat woman that no man would look at, it was a problem if my dress was fitted but long, if my slacks were fitted and not baggy and sloppy like the haters themselves. The problem was that they would not look good in the clothes that I wore so that made a stink about me. There were fat women who wore outfits that were so tight they looked like stuffed sausages. But no one said a thing. The skinny mini who wore a dress so short that if she sneezed you would see her underwear…and yet no one said a thing. But every thing that did not resemble a burka or a circus tent that I wore was a problem. I then had a male, gay supervisor tell me out of his own mouth….”because you are an attractive female with a nice figure it causes you to get attention from guys and that make the woman uncomfortable”. Now is it my fault that I work out and fit my clothing well…or that people actually look at me instead of away from me? NOPE! And in the end, the hating women lied and schemed enough to get me fired for so called violating the dress code. But I ended up with a better job, better pay….working for all men and no drama. Oh did I mention those hating @ss women are still ugly and get no attention. Jealousy sucks…doesn’t it? Just because a woman is attractive and does not cover up like a school marm does not mean she wants your husband! Chill out and stop being insecure.
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this
“Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?”
Mara, of course we are! Isn’t that what at least half the men on here are trying to tell us? Hahaha! There were some real gems yesterday on how we are supposed to behave, and why men who want to be good and honorable are being denied that chance. The more things change, the more they stay the same. HAHAHA!
By Katie
June 5, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
This point may have already been made, but what about the women who are subjected to see other women wearing shirts that are far too low for the workplace, and low rider pants with thongs peeking out of the top? Personally, I have no desire to witness a wardrobe malfunction while I’m trying to make money.
It doesn’t bother me if you’re out for the night, or if you’re on your personal time, but at work I think it’s just indecent to prance around like you’re getting ready to go to a club. A women can look really cute without looking trashy. Whatever happened to a code of decency in the workplace? Asking women to dress respectfully is not Taliban-ish, and it’s disgusting that Diane compared the two. No one is asking women to go to work in a burka, they’re just asking women to come to work in an outfit that won’t produce a nip slip of Hollywood proportions, or so that no one in the office has to be treated to a plumber’s crack when she bends over the copier or to get her lunch from the fridge. It’s as simple as that.
Medium rise pants and a v-neck knit with a camisole underneath and a pair of cute heals is not matronly. In fact it’s subtly sexy. What’s the problem with that?
By willie
June 5, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
I know this has nothing to do with the text BUT
I just save 15% on my auto insurance
By Deborah S.
June 5, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this
I am surprised that no one understands the concept of appropriate dress for a work environment. You (women) are not there for a photo spread for Hustler Magazine or Playboy. You are there to work. Cleavage and panti thongs are not appropriate wear for the office, regardless or not if you have a beautiful body. Period. I do not believe that any woman wearing inappropriate clothing is not VERY aware of the sexuality of it and the impact on the men in the office. To look at this in another way, if men came to work without shirts on and their pants’ waistbands hanging down to their knees (don’t the young boys who wear their pants like this understand it’s a sexual “come-on” started in prison?) so that their briefs show, would that be appropriate? Certainly not. Wear appropriate clothes to work, and if you’re going out to a party or bar hopping afterwards, bring something in to change into. And, believe me, I am NOT a conservative, but I have worked in small and large corporations and know, without question, if you want to be treated professionally, then dress professionally. Think about it!
By DBB
June 5, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this
As a drone stuck in a cubicle farm, I encourage all babes to display as much c1eavage as possible.
I mean, we need SOMETHING to make the day more bareable!
By catlady
June 5, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
Mara, sorry I was unclear. I meant her name is now used like Cheney’s to describe an event: Are you “Mary Smithing” today? Meaning looking like a trollop.
Yes, I am pretty sure the principal was doing more than leering. I did not mean to suggest that he was fired for leering. It was awful to watch him salivate and act like a 12 year old boy with a girlie magazine when she was around. But that a 6 year old would NOTICE and REMEMBER 20 years later says something about her attire.
I love to look at beautiful people. A handsome, well-dressed man with a beautiful, friendly smile is a joy to see. A handsome man, dressed in something like a speedo in the office, however, no matter how fine, would be inappropriate. Her appearance at school continues to be inappropriate, and makes the school look bad, not to mention her and her husband. Isn’t it better to be known for good work and kindness than as “Mary Smith, heh, heh, heh?”
By Archie
June 5, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this
Its difficult for some wives to believe their husbands don’t SEE as much as visiting wives do. Ask him what Becky was wearing and he would shrug and say: something purple.
That’s true Lyrazel. I can’t tell you what my female coworkers have on right now ask I write. I said yes to the topic question only because the rules on sexual harassment seem to be so all-encompassing and subjective. There’s a lady here that sent me a sexual joke, cusses out loud, and yet she got offended at my old screensaver. This person is more than ten years older than I am so there’s no underlying relationship. Since sexual harassment is about what offends then offensive dress should be included in the definition even though it’s going to be subjective and maybe profanity of a sexual nature should be included as well. The lady in the next cube uses the “f” out loud without any apology.
By catlady
June 5, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
DBB: “make the day more bareable”!? Is that a joke?
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this
I don’t think anyone has a problem with people being asked by their managers to dress appropriately at work. Who is arguing against that?!!! Frankly, men who wear baggy shorts and sandals in summer and cross their legs man-style have grossed me out on numerous occasions. (Mandatory pedicures for men AND women who wear sandals, perhaps? Hmmm…) But is that an EEOC issue?
Shaunti’s column supports legal definitions for women based on arbitrary “moral” standards (another “conservative” in favor of more laws regulating personal behavior) and blames women instead of men for the bad behavior of men. Sorry I can’t get on board.
Then several men, and disturbingly, women, joined in the the “women are sl-ts” chorus. That some people want to sing louder with each verse of that tired old song says more about THEM than it does about women whose skirt may be a bit too short for the office. But that’s just my opinion.
By SUZAN
June 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this
THESE TWO BIMBETTES ARE LIKE TWO REALLY BLOND CHEERLEADERS THAT ARE TRYING TO WRITE A SCHOOL NEWSPAPER. WHAT DITSEY SUBJECT MATTER
By JokesOn
June 5, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this
Maybe the topic question should be “Are women responsible for the thoughts men have and how they behave?”
Maybe that is what you would like to make the discussion so that you have a point. If you stayed ON topic and were honest you might contribute to this constructively.
Dressing IS an action and DOES emulates your intended behavior. That concept seems to be lost on you.
Isn’t that what at least half the men on here are trying to tell us?
Less than half of the men posting, and more than half of the women posting would be accurate; but that does not fit your argument.
I read from your posts that women should be able to wear what ever they want to work with no disciplinary repercussions, no?
By Mara
June 5, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this
“indecent”…LOL. Reminds me of an off color joke in which the punchline is the definition of “in decent”
By Archie
June 5, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
I want to read the response to the actual topic question of all the women on this blog(Mara,Kimberly,Lyrazel,etc.) because thus far I haven’t seen a yea or nay, too much, just an argument against men or against women. My thing is the answer yes or no to the topic question and explain because we had a discussion about dress months ago and I was the one who started it. Thanks.
By Saher1979
June 5, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this
Great site. Keep doing.
where are you google?
By Mara
June 5, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this
I read from your posts that women should be able to wear what ever they want to work with no disciplinary repercussions, no?
No, Jokes, you didn’t. If you look back, I even stated that I supported wearing business appropriate dress. BUT…if the office manager or employer either doesn’t have, or doesn’t enforce, a dress code, then yes…she should be able to wear what she wants without having to deal with boorish idiots.
Maybe you only dress nicely when you want to get laid, but most women just want to look nice…an admittedly arbitrary and personal opinion. Btw, do you know what the word “emulate’ means? I’m guessing you meant to use the word “reflect”, no?
as for my point, since you need it explicitly set out for you, let me copy from my own post: “You control what you do, but you can’t control what other people think…” Just because you think a woman in a short skirt is saying “Take me NOW, you hot, studly man!” doesn’t mean she is, or that she even intended to make you believe she was. Nobody is saying you can’t, or don’t, think that. You are, however, trying to say that a woman shouldn’t be able to wear certain things because it makes you think it. Or so it seems.
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
I don’t recall saying anywhere that management has no right to prescribe guidelines for attire in the workplace. They certainly do, and I hope they use it. My issue, frankly, is with women like Shaunti who have nothing better to fret and complain about than what MEN think of what a woman is wearing, and then assign blame, as Mara points out, to the woman. And if you read her column, that is indeed the gist of it. I mean, did we solve all the other problems in the world, and now we’re down to this connundrum? Geez. Get a life, people.
By Mara
June 5, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
Archie - I say “no”, provocative dress should NOT be included in context of sexual harrassment. As kimberly said earlier, “provocative” is in the eye of the beholder. Some people even find the “mystery” of a well-covered woman provacative…
By Mara
June 5, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this
kimberly - “My issue, frankly, is with women like Shaunti who have nothing better to fret and complain about than what MEN think of what a woman is wearing, and then assign blame…to the woman”
you said it, sister!
By Brett "the hitman" Hart
June 5, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this
Do they have burka porn?
Hey if a babe is gonna get mad at me for looking at her rack then she should cover it up. Women where tight clothing and revealing tops because they want people to look. You can glance man just don’t stare like you have never seen it before and your fine. Any woman worth a damn that did not like you looking would say so any how. There is a huge leap from checking a broad out and drooling and stareing or pulling you meat out on her.
By RH
June 5, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this
The problem facing all of the country is that the majority of the population (all races and sexes) are a bunch of idiots. Most people on this board fall right into that category.
By Jack
June 5, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this
Sorry ladies but I do think that all women should have to wear appropriate clothing in the workplace. It should not be allowed for a woman to dress like she is about to go partying with her girlfriends at some bar or nightclub. Skin tight clothes, short mini shirts, low rider jeans, tight shirts should not be allowed. It only invites problems. Sorry but I do think a womans dress and how she acts is a product of the type of man she attracts, the type of friends she attracts, the type of problems she has. I agree 100% that a man should respect women but sometimes by the way she dresses, it commands anything but respect from a man. Sorry but the way a woman dresses, she can easily send the wrong message. She should not wear something that shows her thongs or tatoo on the small of her back when she sits or bends over, she should not wear loose fitting shirts with no bra or loose fitting shirts with loose fitting bras that show it all when she bends over. The way you dress can invite the bad and the good so be careful. Some guys say that a girl deserves to be treated like crap or like a w******* because of the way she dresses and presents herself, is that right to feel that way? no.. but it is what it is……..Dress appropriatly because its not fair for men when you dress like a single woman on the prowl….
By Mara
June 5, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this
“Women where tight clothing and revealing tops because they want people to look”
Thank goodness we women have a man to tell us why we do things. We obviously don’t know as much about it as he does.
By RH
June 5, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
Okay Mara, then we can set specific parameters on what is considered provocative in the workplace, so there is no confusion that over 50% of a man or woman’s cleavage is hanging out is considered provocative. No under garments can be visible, etc. etc.
Quit making it some complicated. Take the word provocative away and set the stupid parameters.
What a thought!
By war eagle
June 5, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
business attire is just that. You should not come in a strappie or a tank top if you are a Dolly Parton type person. You are there for business and business only-go sow your oats after work. If you dress too provacatively, YOU should be reported to HR.
By GOB
June 5, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this
Dress appropriatly because its not fair for men when you dress like a single woman on the prowl….
That is so lame. I am a man who happens to work in a high school. i would guess that what i see on a daily basis is much worse than most on here. To say that it isnt fair to the man is such a cop-out. Men have the ability control themselves just like women do.
By RH
June 5, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this
Normally, the stupidity of a person takes care of itself over time. Those who dress that way at work end up not working at that place for long. Those who misbehave or offend others by their actions, words, looks, etc. do not last very long.
By Mara
June 5, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this
it’s interesting that the majority seems to be debating what women should or should not be able to wear to the office. (IMO A woman can wear anything the dress code doesn’t prohibit) THAT isn’t the question though. Nor is it whether men should be expected to control themselves no matter what the woman wears.
The question is whether it should be actionable as harrassment for a woman to wear something her coworkers find…inappropriate. I personally find tight jeans to be quite distracting. So should I be able to file a harrassment claim because I can’t concentrate around guys in tight jeans? Should obvious “packages” be grounds for me to complain because it just makes me too “hot” and I can’t get any work done? Is that their fault, or mine?
By Jack
June 5, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
Mr. GOB; I certainly hope and pray that as a school teacher, one would be able to control their selves. We are not talking about a adolesent or teenager or child in a school setting. We are talking about adults in a professional working environment. It is expected for a adolesent or teenager to dress inappropriatly and often times without parental knowledge that they dress like that. ANYONE that is an adult and would even look at a juvenile inappropriatly should be put in prison with the electric chair on standby. We are talking about a full grown responsible adult that chooses to dress in a provacative, inappropriate manner to a professional workplace. Many times people dress that way to gain attention, because they think they look good dress like that or because it makes them feel younger than they are without realizing the consequences or message that it sends. Mr. GOB the main point is this: their should be a dress code for all companies and it should be enforced. Face reality, men are sexual creatures and are easily tempted, I dont care if you are a christian man or a preacher, your still a man. The difference between a worldly man and a christain man is that the christian man asks Jesus for the ability to overcome temptation and the manly fleshy things of the world. Let me repeat myself, ANY man that looks at a girl under 21yrs old should be put in prison with the electric chair on standby because he is a sick demented person. Mr. GOB your blog is a huge difference than adults in a adult workplace… Also we are not talking about a job where juveniles work at either. We are talking about full grown women that are over 21yrs of age.
By BlueMoon
June 5, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this
For all of you angry women out there… wearing clothes is an action and should be as punishable as any action a man makes in the workplace. Using over the top arguments only makes you look ignorant and makes it look to other men that you only want to have your cake and eat it too.
I’ve seen too many men lose their jobs because of a “look” or smile or what most would call a friendly exchange. “Good morning”, “how are you”. So for women to get on here and say that men don’t lose their jobs over things like that are completely ignorant. But saying it doesn’t happen defends your argument I guess. But that goes back to the “cake” theory.
There is nothing wrong with being stylish and dressing sharp but when you wear see thru clothes, thongs above the pants and blouses that fall below the bust line that is completely unprofessional and should be as punishable as the mens actions.
Just asking that you look at the whole picture. What’s wrong with “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander?” God forbid we actually enforce this law equally. Fire a few women for not complying to a dress code or standards and then we’ll see what happens.
By Jack
June 5, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
Also Mr. GOB, I do not know about you but it seems that more women in todays time are sleeping with their students than men teachers are… ummmmmmmmmmmmm….. i wonder why that is? I watch the news every night and on my tv it reports more women messing around with juveniles then men are…. For instance what about that really goodlooking blonde teacher that dressed inappropriatly to school that was married and a part time wwf wrestling girl… ummmm…. interesting…..
By Mara
June 5, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
war eagle - *If you dress too provacatively, YOU should be reported to HR”
Hear, hear!!! Not as a harrassment issue, as a dress code issue.
GOB - Men have the ability control themselves just like women do
not according to most of the posts today…
By GOB
June 5, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this
Jack - You are proving my point for me. If work can get done in a school setting with all of the inappropriateness in dress going on, surely adults have the capacity to, well, be adults. If you have a problem with what someone is wearing, why not be an adult and talk to them about it, or if that makes you uncomfortable, talk to their manager.
Also Jack, have you ever worked for a company that DIDNT have a dress code? The only way that it can be enforced is if it is brought to someone with the authority to do so. Or would you prefer that HR make daily rounds to check for dress code violations.
In reality, there are some easy fixes for this. Be an adult. I know that is a foreign concept to many, but it really does solve a lot of problems.
The difference between a worldly man and a christain man is that the christian man asks Jesus for the ability to overcome temptation and the manly fleshy things of the world.
I guess i just dont feel the need to resort to ghost stories to keep me from doing immoral or unethical things. But hey, to each his own…
By GOB
June 5, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
I’ve seen too many men lose their jobs because of a “look” or smile or what most would call a friendly exchange. “Good morning”, “how are you”.
Can you provide a single example of a man losing his job because he said “good morning” to a woman? Or for smiling? Just one. Should be easy right?
By RH
June 5, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
Mara, unfortunetely it is the intent behind the clothing that is the problem and also the perception of the person who is offended. If you dress provacatively at work an their is a sexual overtone to it, such as your thong hanging out, your breasts falling out of the top, no bra, see through clothes, etc., all of which could be “perceived” as sexual harassment. All of it could be perceived, right or wrong, as a sexual pass. If a woman comes to work half nude and sticks their a$$ or boobs in my face, I could see it as making a pass at me. I could offended by this. I might be attracted to it and see it as an invitation and try to come on to that person, who then turns me in for sexual harrassment. This is why we have dress codes, etc. So there is no confusion or misperceptions. Get it?
By Archie
June 5, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this
Archie - I say “no”, provocative dress should NOT be included in context of sexual harrassment. As kimberly said earlier, “provocative” is in the eye of the beholder.
First of all, thanks Mara for answering the topic question. I hope I don’t make you mad but I thought my screensaver was in the eye of the beholder. The men liked it but one cussing-woman didn’t so I deleted it entirely. I mean is sexual harassment just for women and in a few very extreme cases, men? I have not even addressed whether men can control themselves because that’s not the question. Can some woman other than Mara answer the topic question? Thanks.
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
The question is whether it should be actionable as harrassment for a woman to wear something her coworkers find…inappropriate. I personally find tight jeans to be quite distracting. So should I be able to file a harrassment claim because I can’t concentrate around guys in tight jeans? … Is that their fault, or mine?
Mara, apparently we are talking to a brick wall today. They all want to make the discussion about something else — specifically, what bad girls we must be. WhatEVERRR….
Catch ya on the flip side! {:->
By Jack
June 5, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Mr. GOB, once again you cannot compare working in a school as a teacher with half dressed underage juvenile girls with a professional work place with adults. I have a wife with 4 daughters, i love women, i respect women, i am definatly all for womens rights and for equal job position and pay for both men and women. However there is still alot of double standards in the workplace. Men often get fired for inappropriate looks, stares or comments but yet women can dress like they are going to a dance club on a Saturday night. I honestly think that there are times when a man is fired unjustly for sexual harrasement, however sexual harrasment laws are very much needed in todays sick, out of control society that we live in. If we are going to enforce sexual harrasment than we should also enforce a dress code for both men and women. Also Mr. GOB i think we should change the law where all public schools makes there students wear a uniform. Why do you think so many private schools make there kids wear a uniform?
By lozen
June 5, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
Shaunti never ceases to amaze me! But what if the woman is wearing the latest style in a tight shirt, low-riding pants …and a thong that peeks out when she sits at her desk? We all know most women do dress this way at work, don’t me? Jeez!
By CD
June 5, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this
RH - I wish that statement were true. However, many times upper management (especially in small companies) overlook this sort of behavior. More often than you probably know.
By Mara
June 5, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this
“This is why we have dress codes, etc. So there is no confusion or misperceptions. Get it?”
that’s why I agree that offices should have and enforce dress codes…do YOU “get it”?
All of it could be perceived, right or wrong, as a sexual pass and I’d like to hear that one being reported.
“Well she was standing there, with her back to me, reading a file. Right there in her peep-toe pumps. In front of God, and everyone! I could tell she wanted to have sex with me, after all, she wouldn’t have worn those seamed stockings if she didn’t!”
“What exactly did she do?”
“She made a pass at me…didn’t you hear me?! She stood there doing her work wearing those shoes, and that skirt…and those silky stockings….and I feel so violated!”
“But did she do anything?”
“I saw her…(gasp)…cleavage when I walked by and glanced down her shirt! She practically shoved them in my face! And then…then…I saw…her bra strap slide down!!! She made a sexual pass at me! You got to do something!”
what a tool…
By lozen
June 5, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this
I want one person to show me proof that some man has had to suffer a suit because he looked at someone, or said “good morning” or smiled! Just one case guys. Talk about “over the top.”
By GOB
June 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
Also Mr. GOB i think we should change the law where all public schools makes there students wear a uniform. Why do you think so many private schools make there kids wear a uniform?
You mean aside from the branding that the schools get everyday before and after school when those kids spread out all over the city to go home?
Many studies have shown that uniforms in school do not effect student behavior. And if it is so that the kids and teachers can concentrate, they wouldnt have all of the girls wearing fairly short skirts. Uniforms in private schools are as much about tradition as anything else.
Also, who do you propose pays for the school uniforms that are now mandatory? In public schools, you cant require the parents to pay.
By lozen
June 5, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
GOB we’re on the same page here but I didn’t see your comment until after I said the same thing!
By GOB
June 5, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this
If we are going to enforce sexual harrasment than we should also enforce a dress code for both men and women.
Does this mean that you think the government should be enforcing dress codes at work? They are the ones who enforce the sexual harassment laws, so to make sure everything is fair and consistent…
By RH
June 5, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this
Mara, that is exactly what would reward a million dollar lawsuit……then could move to possible violation of a protected group based on sex if nothing was done about it. If the male was let go after trying to sue for sexual harassment, he could probably show he was discriminated against based on his sex and a double standard exist in the workplace. Even more money….especially, if he had already filed a formal complaint to a supervisor about the issue, which is required to start a sexual harrassment case.
If you can get sued for sexual harassment for telling a sexually overtone joke in front of a bunch of people, you can damn sure get sued for showing your a$$ in the workplace.
By kimberly
June 5, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I’m sure that nice gentleman will provide examples. After all, he said he’s seen “too many” men lose their jobs over such things. Surely he won’t abandon their cause for justice now!
Hey, do you remember the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings? Boy, they showed that little such & such, didn’t they? Ms. Hill didn’t even want to come to Washington, but they subpeona’d her self-righteous butt and forced her to answer a bunch of humiliating questions under oath and in front of the whole country. Then they said, “Eh…. we’ll take the man’s word for it,” and put him in charge of appointing future presidents. That’ll teach THAT bizzatch to open her mouth, won’t it? We should all learn from her mistake.
By Jack
June 5, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
Lozen and GOB: I really do know a man who was fired for staring at a woman and he didnt even stare at her. He and I worked together and was working for a huge company here in Georgia, in a building that was about 15 stories with a cafeteria on the bottom floor with many food vendors in it. The woman was about 40yrs old, he was I think about 27yrs old at the time. She said he followed her around the cafeteria one day and kept staring at her, so they fired him before they even did a investigation or notified human resources. He never even laid eyes on her before and didnt know her. The head center manager and the rent a cop security guys took him down to the cafeteria, had the woman come down and buy a coke so he could see who his accuser was. He said she was wearing a pair of skin tight jeans and tried to look much younger than what she was. He hired a lawyer and when the papers was served to the company, he got his job back, a pay raise, a letter of apology and the manager that fired him was fired. So yes it does happen………
By Mara
June 5, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this
Archie - no offense taken. I don’t mind that people may have an opinion that’s different than mine. I may not agree, but I certainly don’t take it personally…until they start being jerks about it. At that point I tend to get snippy, as seen by my 3:03 post :^)
all y’all…I’m outta here. Love to my blog buds!
By BlueMoon
June 5, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this
LOZEN, MARA and GOB-
Please read the paragraph please. I didn’t say the men had suits filed against them I said they lost their jobs. And there is no way I’m giving out names on this forum BUT I will give a description. 3 of the cases happened with the same company - a Fortune500 computer company based out of California. No leering, no touching, no harsh words - just the womans perception.
And I know I’m asking you to be objective which seems to be stretch for you but I’ll give it a shot anyway.
Do you really believe that ALL women are good people? If you answered logically and said no then you also realize that fraction of women will use advantages they have (as will men) to get things they want. Are a lot of these people logical? No, of course not and neither are their actions but it doesn’t keep it from happening.
Now on my part, I will admit I haven’t seen it happen in the last 4 years so hopefully managers are figuring out how to deal with these messes but coporate america has had a horrific track record up to this point. Again, just because you’re blind to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
By Cassie
June 5, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this
Uh, I’ve been working professionally for fifteen years and I’ve never seen another woman’s thong at work.
Don’t we have a real issue to talk about?
By Info Science Rules
June 5, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this
Would someone explain to me what a librarian looks like? Being one, I’d like to know. All the ones I know look different: Tall ones, short ones, old ones, young ones, glamorous ones, fashion-challenged ones- heck, I even know several that are men (what does that do for you, Chilao?)
Seriously, if there’s a librarian uniform or something, I need to know.
By JokesOn
June 5, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this
Men have the ability control themselves just like women do
Reply:
not according to most of the posts today…
No. That is how you (cheaply) interpreted most of the posts today.
By GOB
June 5, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
Jack - If your best example of a guy getting screwed by harassment laws ends with him getting a pay raise, I am not impressed.
BlueMoon - If those 3 men had truly been fired unjustly, then they could have filed a lawsuit against the company, especially a Fortune 500 company. If they didnt, then too bad for them.
By Jack
June 5, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this
I know about one other friend of mine that got fired for sexual harrasment. Once again we worked together at a huge company here in georgia. My friend was friends with this woman at the company. They were the same age, in their 20’s. Everyone at the company knew they were friends and frequently went to lunch with each other. One day he asked her out on a real date, she said no, that she was dating someone already, then she showed him a picture of her boyfriend. He then jokingly told her that he was ugly and she was too goodlooking for him. The guy in the quibical next to her over heard him say that. He said he would tell if she didnt. The next day she filed sexual harrasement charges on him and he was fired. He also hired an attorney, they offered his job back but he did not take it, he just wanted his record strip clean. He went on to work for anouther company doing the same job.
By Jen
June 5, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this
OK, let’s examine. I have in my possession a set of very large breasts. I did not buy these breasts. I inherited them from my mother.
My typical work attire are comfortable jeans and a loose-fitting knit shirt and tennis shoes.
Men stare at my chest. I’m sure they’re having a sexual thought, too. And I’m sort of short and plump, not a Playmate type. But they do it. And I don’t really like it.
So, how am I in control of what men think? And why should I consult them when I dress? Someone mentioned not wearing breasts to work unless you’re old, they sag, or you’re overweight. I’m the third and I’m here to tell you that oen doesn’t necessarily apply….
They’re going to look anyway!
If all women wore burkas all the time this conversation would take a decidedly Richard Gere vs India slant.
By Lily Toad
June 5, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this