Woman to Woman

By DamnTheMan

May 6, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

Gee, Diane wants the free market to play a part in Title IX funding? While she whines about bad old men’s football teams getting hotel rooms, she conveniantly neglects to mention that men’s football and basketball are usually the only two profitable college athletic programs. Colleges are not wasting scarce resources on these programs at all. In fact, football and mens basketball are usually providing all the money for all of the other athletic programs at many colleges. Even womens athletics are payed for by mens football and basketball. But of course man-hating febots like Diane would be more than happy to gut mens athletic programs even if it hurts womens sports that they don’t particpate in or even watch on a regular basis. It’s all about bashing mean old men with thse fembot chicks. After all, we’re all just sperm donors and potential rapists to these nutjobs anyway.

By Aaron Matthews

May 7, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Diane, I am quite surprised you would display your ignorance and sexism so boldly. At least you aren’t afraid to hide it.

First. Women excel over men in college academics mainly because women are in majors that have less harsh grading standards. If you look at the majors with the highest grade points, they’re dominated by females. If you look at both men’s and women’s grades in education versus engineering, there is a consistent drop for both genders. Of course 90% of the elementary teachers are women, most of the engineers are men. Next, when was the last time you saw a men’s study class, let alone major, at a US college? A class where showing up and basting women for all of the men’s problems gets you an A? Colleges in general lean feminist as a counterweight to the male athlete. Thus male academics are lost. Don’t believe me? I challenge you to find even half of the female specific scholarships for men. According to IQ studies, men and women have roughly the same average IQ. - 100 (duh) but men have a higher standard deviation. (look it up.) Women do better at memorization and slow, methodical work. Standardized testing, labs, and exploration favor men, in general. This means that colleges in general are failing men, but do nothing to fix it.

As for women’s longevity, you’re absolutely right, they shouldn’t have to live out their golden years in poverty. What you don’t seem to know is that social security was originally set to match the life expectancy. So in order to be fair, women should have to wait to receive theirs until later in life. The other option would be - spend more money on men’s health care (GASP!!) I belive this would be the Title IX of health care, Since men are living shorter, they should receive more attention than women, whereas right now they receive less.

Yes Title IX is around today because of the blatant discrimination 50 years ago. So your response is in turn blatant discrimination? I wonder if you miss the irony of your on sexist hypocrisy.

There hasn’t been time to determine if women want the same opportunities? 35 years. Every study still shows men participate and follow sports more than women. Just because you chose to ignore the studies, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. In Missouri, there are SIX boys club sports that are not sanctioned because girls don’t want to play. In my godson’s high school, boys are nearly five times as more likely to get cut from a sport than girls.

Don’t talk about free market. If it was a free market, there wouldn’t be a gender separation at all, especially in professional sports. If Michelle Wie can compete with the men, God bless her she gets what she deserves, but why should men receive 1/2 of what a women because he plays on the nationwide tour, not the LPGA?

Yes, football is over funded, but it also brings in community support, cohesiveness to the school, and activity to the many kids. Why should women’s less sexy sports be given special status over mens? THAT would be sexism, again. Just so you know, I never played football and I’m not a huge fan of it either.

Now, lets talk about applying Title IX to the theater, dance, and choir programs.

Or are you going to dodge that issue

By Monica

May 7, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Title IX is a double-edged sword. Cutting men’s programs to meet Title IX qualifications is absurd. How about equal opportunity?

That said, go to your local high school and see the disparity of funding in male vs female sports. At my school, the girls’ volleyball, basketball, softball, and track teams all made the state playoffs this year; our football team went 0-10, and our boys basketball team only won 6 games. Guess who still gets all the money? The supplement for assistant freshman football coaches is double the supplement of the varsity girls volleyball coach. Last year, the football team went to the first round of the state playoffs, and each player received a patch for his letterman jacket. The volleyball team made it to the “Elite Eight,” yet the booster club didn’t purchase a patch for the girls because they said that there was not enough money. Only after the volleyball coach reminded them of the phrase “Title IX” did the girls (who advanced farther than the football team) receive a patch.

Sounds quite petty, but it can cause some hard feelings at the high school level.

By Sue

May 7, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Aaron — you are right about the differences in majors for men and women. I was a Finance major (more men than women) and now I am a mortgage banker (definitely more men than women). Are Education classes really that much easier though? I am just asking because I don’t know much about it… I know I had friends who struggled through education majors… As for sports, I agree. I think that funding should be more for sports that bring in more viewers. Football brings in most of the student body as well as private funding and parents so it should get first consideration when funds are being allocated. I also believe that Title 9 and affirmative action had their place once but are obsolete now.

By grlpower

May 7, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Spend more money on men’s healthcare? Why when you have to literally DRAG them to a Dr’s office? College sports are based on money plain & simple.

Good for funding more women’s sports. Why does everything have to revolve around football & basketball ? Without all the parties, decorations, music, BEER, marching bands & practically naked cheerleaders, football is a very lame boring game. Start celebrating & putting importance on a variety of sports !

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

Sue:

Well, I’m not a finance guy - I’m a computer guy. But in addition to my BS Computer Science, I also came to within Student Teaching of getting my BS Math Education.

I can tell you from first hand experience that the Math Education majors would not survive the CS program at my school, and I was at a school that their Ed program pushed Subject Matter Expert above nearly all else!! (NOT your typical Ed school!)

Monica:

Ever thought that maybe the Football BOOSTER club got all that extra money for FOOTBALL players???? Guess what? I’ve seen the inner workings of school finances (I was a teacher for a while). At the school level, ALL SPORTS ARE FUNDED EQUALLY. The DIFFERENCE is what the BOOSTERS do, and THAT is PARENT EFFORT!! Football (and/ or basketball, depending on the school) parents get out and work their TAILS off raising money for the team. You don’t see Volleyball parents getting out that much! And businesses (rightly) won’t support a volleyball team as willingly when they KNOW that giving that same money to the FOOTBALL team will get them a THOUSAND times the exposure, maybe even more than that. (I don’t know if volleyball teams do a program for their meets, but I know the football teams do. And let me tell ya: I’ve been to every type of HS sporting event. I can take the top 5 VOLLEYBALL teams in the state, and the crowd they generate at their HIGHEST attendance won’t fill a quarter of the VISITING bleachers in some HS Football stadiums I’ve been in (I’m thinking places like Carrolton, Cartersville, North Hall, heck, even down in South GA at Fitzgerald or Thomasville!!)

You want to talk money generating, for both the boosters and the businesses that support the boosters? Well, little lady, you can’t hold a candle to the spotlight that is FOOTBALL in this state. Businesses support the volleyball teams because they are nice and wouldn’t mind a tax write-off. They support FOOTBALL because they know they’ll get their name into the community in a way that nearly no other advertising can, particularly on the local level. In other words: Volleyball COSTS money, Football GENERATES money. HUGE difference!!!

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May 7, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

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By Archie

May 7, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

I think it is time to revise Title 9 rules. I don’t totally agree with Shanti but she makes some good points. Men’s basketball and football usually bring in the most money at any college or university that I know of and the money from those programs funds other programs so that needs to be considered. Frankly, women need to support sports played by women,better. Many women that I know get way more excited about men’s sports than they do women’s sports and it’s worth mentioning because it is not right to allocate so much for something people aren’t supporting.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

While I try to hold my anger in check, let me remind you that school systems operate differently. Our school is not allowed to have multiple booster clubs; we have one sports booster club. In fundraising events, 20% goes to the general booster club fund, and the rest is earmarked for the individual sports. Items such as state patches generaly come out of the general booster fund. We recently held our annual coke sale (cases of cokes). Our 20 volleyball players outsold the football and basketball teams combined. Also, supplements for the coaches come from central office - they are part of a coach’s pay check from the county - not the booster club. So at the school level, all sports are not funded equally.

I also don’t appreciate being called “little lady.” The only one on this blog who can do that is Jack, who would use the phrase as a term of endearment.

A bit of advice…when you blog scream at people (using capital letters), you tend to turn off your audience rather quickly.

By Archie

May 7, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Shanti has the typical conservative attitude, get rid of something rather than fix it. Men’s teams are being cut because people don’t want to fix the loopholes in the law but get rid of the law so they can get back to discriminating again. As for Diane she is over the top with her feminist view at times because even though more women go to college they simply don’t support women’s sports financially. I don’t buy that reasoning from that Women’s sports foundation website. ..simply hasn’t been long enough to determine whether women are more or less interested in sports than men. Diane, puleeze. As a sports fan I can tell you who Cynthia Cooper,Lisa Leslie,Laila Ali,Billie Jean King,Michelle Wie,Marion Jones,Pam Oliver,Tina Thompson,and Lenda Murray are. The females mentioned here play or played pro basketball, box, bodybuild, play tennis,golf, and engage sports broadcasting. Basically to Diane those like her put your money where your mouth is. I have paid for women’s boxing and women’s pro basketball and I would love for women’s sports to continue at the collegiate level but it takes money, a lot more money from the 50 percent that Dianes speaks of.

By 2D

May 7, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

I argue with folks a bunch about Title IX from every angle: The reasons for Title IX? Should it be abolished? Should it be revised?

First, I don’t know why it was started. Probably a bunch of reasons tossed together, but, personally, I think it is a good thing. Tt has gotten women more involved in athletics, provided more opportunities for exercise and higher education and built interest in sports in the female community.

Second, I don’t like the rule in it’s current form. It is far too restrictive in what a school can do with it’s athletic budget. For example, my high school did not field a men’s volleyball team (even though there was more than enough interest) b/c it already had men’s football and women’s volleyball and the school could not generate enough interest in other women’s sports to balance out the offerings. It wasn’t a money issue, it was an interest issue. Ga Tech runs into the same issues. It can’t field several marginal men’s sports (i.e. wrestling, soccer, lacrosse) b/c there are not enough female athletes to balance out the offerings. Again, not a money issue but an interest issue.

On the point of funding… At virtually EVERY school, football or men’s basketball makes up nearly all of the revenue for athletics. Without that program, the others wouldn’t exist. Period. UGA wins all kinds of awards for it’s gymnastics, swimming and diving teams. But guess what? Without football, none of those teams would exist because except for a very, VERY small group of people, noone cares.

Monica talks about winning and performance for the women’s team at a local HS. So what? At Ga Tech, the most consistent, highest performing team is the Baseball team. Yet Coach Hall makes one fifth of the football or basketball coach. Why? MONEY. More people see one football game than all of the baseball games combined.

Bottom Line… Change Title IX. Allow schools to be out of balance by a certain number of sports (i.e. 9 men’s and 7 women’s) or simply do not count football in the equation since it is the largest money genreator for the athletics department. It we can’t make a change, then the rule should be abolished. We have gotten to a point where the number of women athletes will require schools to have women’s atheltics so we shouldn’t worry about a mass axing of women’s sports. Doing so would hurt a schools reputation and image. Also, IMO, not looking at the rule objectively makes a mockery of the entire reason for the rule. It was created to make opportunity, not restrict and in today’s environment I believe it is doing more of the latter.

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Monica:

I’ve been around computing for quite a while. I know exactly what I am doing, which was emphasizing my point.

So your little volleyball team sold Cokes… k. What did the football team do? My best bet is that they probably went directly to businesses in the community asking for their support. This hunch further implies that they more than likely raised about 10 times the level of funding your little Coke sale did, probably in about half the time.

It really all boils down to who does the community support more, and in Georgia 999 times out of 1000 that will be either the boys’ basketball or football teams. Even at schools such as UGA, who really knows - other than people that play that specific sport - that the Gym Dogs have won the National Title quite frequently in this decade in gymastics, or that even the Golf and Soccer teams are quite good? Answer: Not very many people. But wanna take a guess as to how accurate the man on the street would be if you ask him what the Dawgs’ FOOTBALL record was last season? I’m betting that at a MINIMUM he could tell you that they had a winning season with a new quarterback and still made it to a bowl game. Ask the same man about nearly any other UGA sport (excluding basketball and baseball), and he might not even know UGA had a team. Same is true with HS sports in this state….

By KC

May 7, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Coming from a female that played college volleyball and graduated with honors in engineering, a lot of these comments are far reaching. One of the biggest problems with Title IX is that it tries to force equality on something that is likely never going to be equal. As much as I am for women’s sports and fully agree that the opportunities should be the same, funding and profits is never going to be. I am sure we can all say who the national champs in football and men’s basketball (possibly women’s due to controversy) are this year, but I am sure the majority doesn’t know any of the others. There has got to be some kind of compromise here and throwing dagers at men and then back at women is not the answer. Women are just as smart and talented as men, however, women often don’t choose to show their talents through athletics. Funding issues should be discussed based on the non-revenue producing sports rather than the sex of the athlete. Cutting men’s sports does not increase opportunities for females which was in the intention of this law. As with most laws that were written 25 years ago they should be review and possibly realigned, not just thrown out. Our society is different and still developing. Society pushes women to be beautiful, but there are very few examples where a woman’s strength in athletics is what is seen as beautiful in both men’s and women’s eyes.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

So your little volleyball team sold Cokes… k. What did the football team do?

They sold cokes. Just not as many as the volleyball players did. Anyway, I was merely stating that the various sports should receive equal treatment, regardless of who brings in the most revenue. And Title IX helps.

However, I also agree with the points you bring up, 2D. It is a shame to deny the men at GT the opportunity to play lacrosse or to wrestle simply because there are more males and females who attends Tech (what it boils down to). That’s crazy. Abolish Title IX? No. Change it to provide equal opportunity? Absolutely.

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By Monica

May 7, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Sorry, that should have been, “there are more males than females…” my mistake!

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Monica:

Do you understand that spreading money the same no matter what is the foundation for socialism/ communism?? The inherent flaw in that logic is that in doing so, you reduce the incentive for the average to become extraordinary, because the extra effort needed is no longer rewarded/ valued.

Would you rather see one OUTSTANDING program that the entire school can build its reputation on (ala UGA’s Football program) or every program equally funded and NO ONE being even “average”? Oh wait, nevermind. you’re going to say that everyone should be “average”, if that.

Case in point, and the reason I am so adamant:

School north of ATL on I-75. I grew up there. While I personally never went to the school, dad graduated from there (played some basketball there in his day), middle bro graduated from there (football and wrestling, including being on the starting offensive line his senior season when the school went to the playoffs for the second time in school history, and the first time in either of our lifetimes), and youngest bro goes there (some football, mostly wrestling, including being on the State Championship team from 06). Mom was the President of the Football Booster club the year middle bro’s team went to the playoffs. Me? I help out on the sidelines with the down markers when I get the chance. (Not often, since I don’t live there anymore!)

I’ve personally seen the effort that Football Boosters put into their drives. (And Band Boosters as well, and cheerleading). The FOOTBALL boosters at that school paid for a fieldhouse, painting, upkeep, and their own concession/ souvenier booth.

Other sports (soccer, track, even baseball, to a lesser extent) paid for NONE of these things and expect to have free access to them. Not a big deal, except that they demand access when the football teams need them and then whine when the football team exerts its rights of first access.

Also, the school’s softball stadium is 3 miles down the road from the main campus, on a property used by the system for various things over the years (it was the site of the original Cass High, but the complex now houses both the Pre-K program and the alternative school). School/ system put the same amount of resources into upkeep of the fields used by ALL teams, there simply isn’t space on the current school campus to put in a softball field. (Why baseball/ softball teams can’t use the same field is something I don’t understand, but beside the point for the moment.) Softball team boosters do next to nothing (excuse me, they sell Cokes) and demand that their field look like the football field. Again, the FOOTBALL BOOSTERS pay for much of the upkeep of the football field, NOT the school.

Why should the softball team DEMAND that they have equal money from the parents/ community when they have done nothing to EARN it? (Again: The school/ system funds each program with the SAME amount of money!)

Regarding coaches’ salaries: Guess what? Just like finding math/ science teachers, a football coach is hard to find. (That, and each team has about 5 different coaches.) Therefore they get paid more as part of the recruiting practice. Softball coaches a) are not as important from a fund-raising perspective and b) are not as important to a majority of the community at large. (Actually b is the reason for a..) Therefore, since their services are not deemed as valuable, their coaching fee is less. Would you demand that carpet cleaner be paid as much as a brain surgeon?

By greg

May 7, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

Before everyone goes blaming football we should really think about it. Without football none of the other sports would exist, they are not financially viable. Be careful what you wish for, if all the sports were left on their own football would be the only one operating. Also, welcome to the south, when there is 91,000 people at a women’s soccer practice game, like there was at the alabama spring football game then you can complain.

By Lyrazel

May 7, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

As I write my niece has just won the High school National Field Hockey Championship. Her mom was limited to track and limited to use the track when the boys did not lay claim. There was never any motivation for her mom to excel at any sport because she was not a boy. That is history. The NOW is that my niece has made this accomplishment, that her MVP award is a source of family pride and she put herself in competition and was not confined to the stands to cheer the boys teams thanks to Title IX.

Sure, the mens sports teams make more money for college but is it so good for the students to have pro-athletics in college? Is college the place to justify spending millions on one coach’s salary and yet very little in library holdings, staff or police? Is big arena sports where binge drinking begins actually good for the campus population? Are athlete students recruited only because of athletic abilities but not for merit at the expense of other students? What about the majority of students who gain athletic scholarships but never earn a place on a pro team does having pro-sports make them more or less capable of finding a job—when they leave the ivory towers?

I am in favor of Title 9 because it helps women obtain the same type of scholarship opportunities only allowed to men. Sure women’s sports dont have the fans or the wealth! These women gain an advantage by pressing themselves and learning about teams working together—which is imperative in business. It also helps women turn away from sexual stereotypes being broadcast at them by nay-sayers & beauty companies who like women weak, vulnerable and anorexic.

By chuck

May 7, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Monica, I know what you are talking about with volleyball. In our school there are 4 sports that are self-supporting:

Football Girls Volleyball Girls Basketball Boys Basketball

In that order. Football supports girls and boys soccer, girls and boys track. My volleyball team not only is self-supporting but all of my girls also participate in fundraisers at a higher percentage than the other sports for the booster club. You’ll also find that volleyball players tend to be some of the highest achieving students and the best-behaved as well. This is generally not true of the other girls sports.

I think we ought to provide as many opportunities as we can for ALL students. That said, all sports should be self-supporting. I figure if there is not enough interest in the sport to get the student body and parents to come out and watch, then what is the point?

As for supplements, they are usually based on the amount of time required to effectively coach the sport, not on whether they are for boys or girls.

By smartguy

May 7, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

This makes me hate women.

Diane, your entitlement attitude is a lot of what is wrong with our country today. You are an absolute hipocrit when you say you want free market forces. I guess you breezed through economics, but missed one very important fundamental of free markets: LACK OF GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT.

As has been said, if making money were required to exist in college athletics, the only two survivors would be MENS FOOTBALL AND MENS BASKETBALL. Damn fools.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

I agree, Chuck. I merely said that it wasn’t fair of the general booster club to buy state patches for the football team but not for the volleyball team, who advanced farther than the football team in the playoffs!

By 2D

May 7, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel… Before you blame big arena sports for drinking, you should realize that alcohol is not sold at virtually every college stadium. If there is any, it is snuck in. Binge drinking doesn’t exist because of big arena sports and I think you know that so don’t try to connect the two in an effor to justify the current interpretaions of Title IX.

Also, before you bash the need for big arena sports you better review and accept the fact that without them, your niece wouldn’t have the opportunity to win a field hockey championship without or without Title IX. If you believe otherwise, you are foolish.

One other thing about big arena sports… They provide much more to the university and the community than gate receipts. They provide revenue to surrounding businesses (i.e. hotels, restaurants, etc.). They provide a galvanizing influence on the community and make it a more enjoyable place to live (i.e. would people love Athens as much if UGA football wasn’t so prevelant or the focus the VT football team can give to the community after their tragedy?). They give institutions a higher profile which promotes more applicants and therefore a higher calibre of student and faculty (i.e. applications for Tech increased by double digit percentages after the 1990 football championship and for Duke after the 1991 B-Ball championship). They provide a comraderie for the alumni (i.e. see the Tech clubs all around the country which is where I got my first exposure). Well, I guess that was several more things.

I also don’t believe that anyone here has stated that Title IX has no use. In fact, most people here would suggest simply making some changes to the rule so that it fulfills it’s original goal of ensuring a broader athletic experience. Give the institutions more flexibility. In the end, it is in the college’s best interest to provide the widest range of athletic teams as possible. Very few would ever can a program simply because they wanted to get rid of a women’s team. Sure it’s out there, but I suspect the numbers a very, very small.

By Jack

May 7, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Money, money, money. That’s what it is all about.

By Scalia

May 7, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

I agree with most of your statements, 2D, but the binge drinking and big arena sports. There is a correlation. At UGA, tailgating is insane. Most of the students, parents, and alumni are hammered by the time that they get to the game. It is a tradition.

By 2D

May 7, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Scalia… I’m not saying people don’t get “lit up” before and during the ball game. I simply don’t but into the fact that big arena sports is the cause for binge drinking. I believe the folks who get party at a tailgate would find another reason to do so if the game didn’t exist.

Otherwise, drinking would tail off from Jan-Sep and I think we all know that isn’t the case. At least it wsn’t the case at Tech. Drinking levels remained very constant.

By chuck

May 7, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

I understand Monica. The “Booster” Club, if is a general booster club for all sports, should have ponied up without being asked. Their job is to support the schol ATHLETIC program, not just one program. I think to a degree that that support should be proportional, but how can you NOT celebrate the accomplishments achieved by those girls?

By Mara

May 7, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

2D - the reason for Title IX was gender discrimination, pure and simple. Prior to 1970, if a woman wanted to pursue a professional degree in college, chances were she wouldn’t be admitted to a law school or medical school program because she was a woman. There were quotas on the number of women allowed to enter these programs. In 1972, Congress passed Title IX of the 1972 Education Amendments Act, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender at educational institutions that are recipients of federal funds. This law opened the door for women to become doctors, lawyers and college athletes.

Some statistics highlighting the advancements follow:

In 1994, women received 38% of medical degrees, compared with 9% in 1972.

In 1994, women earned 43% of law degrees, compared with 7% in 1972.

In 1994, 44% of all doctoral degrees to U.S. citizens went to women, up from 25% in 1977.

Even though the law was initiated to address all gender discrimination, like the gender quotas mentioned above, it did include athletic opportunities. And unfortunately, most of the angst over the law can be traced to that issue. It’s true that in the ‘70’s polls showed that women weren’t all that interested in athletics. Why? Because society said that girl athletes weren’t “feminine”. That they’d never have boyfriends because boys don’t like competitive women. That it was “unseemly”. Because boys were openly hostile to having to play with or against girls. Society told them that being “beat by a girl” was the ultimate in emasculation so no male athelet wanted to be put into the position of being shown up by a girl, even IF she did play sports as well (or better) than the boys.

Monica - good points all. and ignore the condescention. Some men just can’t help sneering at the “your little volleyball team”.

Jack - Money? Not to a lot of women. To many of us, it’s about opportunity.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Jack—I thought it was all about the Hokey-Pokey.

“You do the Hokey Pokey and you shake it all around…….”

Smiles to all.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

Most of the students, parents, and alumni are hammered by the time that they get to the game. It is a tradition.

If you can’t get hammered, Scalia, why bother?

By chuck

May 7, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers?

By chuck

May 7, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

In nearly 30 years of attending AUBURN FOOTBALL games, I have seen ONE drunk that had to be removed from the game because of his condition. I have seen SOME who probably drank more than they should have (to me that would be drinking at all), but only one that got “hammered”. That’s really sad if you think about it, that you can’t enjoy yourself without getting “hammered”.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

Of course, if you root for a sorry team like _ _ b _ _ _ _, you have to get hammered to deal with the humiliation.

: > }

Go Dawgs. Woof, Woof.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Funniest SNL skit ever: John Goodman, Chris Farley etc. portraying obese Chicago Bears fans.

“Ok, guys. Ditka, by himself, vs. the Green Bay Packers.”

“No question—Ditka all the way by 21!!”

chuckie—you ought to lighten up a little and enjoy life once in a while. Maybe a little Hokey-Pokey would do you some good, buddy.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

In nearly 30 years of attending AUBURN FOOTBALL games

Aha—I have seen the light, chuck. Now I know what’s wrong with you. Have you considered counseling?

By chuck

May 7, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

I can “lighten up” without getting LIT UP.

By chuck

May 7, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

BTW, funniest SNL skit was by far the news with chevy Chase, Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin. Consistently funny every week.

By GOB

May 7, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

As a high school coach, I can assure you that most high school sports - at least in the metro area - do not simply take money from football to support themselves. I am sure that it does happen in some places, but that is not the rule in HS.

In schools where each sport has seperate booster clubs, all the expenses come from that particular booster club. The county gives a very small amount for each sport (soccer got $1500 this year in my county - for 4 teams), but everything else comes from the boosters.

Football is still king as far as gate money and exposure, but at my school, the soccer booster club has more money per athlete than the football program. We pay stadium debt just like everyone else. The idea of football allowing all the other sports to exist is simply false in high school. College, yeah, but not high school.

As for the Title IX discussion, there should be some way to create more equity in the sports offerings at schools. There is no reason why only 1 SEC school should have a men’s soccer team, yet UGA has to dig to find women’s sports to add (equistrian) just to avoid eliminating more men’s sports. Title IX serves a purpose, but it needs to have some common sense thrown in as well.

By chuck

May 7, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Farley was CRUDE not funny.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

I did put my right foot in my mouth once with some clients who invited me to their daughter’s wedding. I said “Hell, yeah. We’ll all get drunk at the reception and do the Hokey-Pokey”. The poor woman got a horrified look on her face and said “We are Southern Baptists. We don’t drink and we CERTAINLY do not do the Hokey Pokey.”

Heck, what did I know. Up North, the Baptists are the wild ones.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

I can “lighten up” without getting LIT UP.

I’ll tell you what, chuckie. Let’s bury the hatchet. I’ll take you out and show you how the Dog-Man parties. They’re still talking about us at the Roxy from Todd Rundgren’s show last week. ; > } We cleared out three rows by the time the show was over.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

BTW, funniest SNL skit was by far the news with chevy Chase, Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin. Consistently funny every week.

chuck, you ignorant slut!

How about the Killer Bees? Samurai Tailor?

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Do any of you think even in the most idealistically fair society that all these areas (sports, careers, etc.) women’s and men’s roles would approach a 50/50 equilibrium?

I may be wrong, but I have a very difficult time believing that would happen. Granted you would have cross-overs by either gender, but they would always be the minority.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

GOB, how are ya? How was your year? I’m assuming that, like me, you are reviewing or administering the EOCT, which is why I have had lots of time to post today.

Chuck, unfortunately, I have seen quite a few people escorted from Sanford Stadium because they were too drunk to stand! I was one of the few who actually went to watch the game instead of getting plastered!

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

GOB:

I just get riled when I see people being lazy and mooching off others, which is exactly what the softball program at that school was trying to do, and they were trying to use this Title IX stuff to force the school to let them get their way.

Honestly, I’m in the camp that says “If they can pay for it, let em play.” Unlike people like Diane and Monica, I support the TRUE Free Market.

By GOB

May 7, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

When you are talking about high school sports, I think the free market has to take a backseat to opportunity.

I have no problem with football supporting other programs, I was just pointing out that your scenerio isnt reality in much of the metro area.

Monica- Doing well. I am on planning. EOCT’s are later this week for us…

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Do any of you think even in the most idealistically fair society that all these areas (sports, careers, etc.) women’s and men’s roles would approach a 50/50 equilibrium?

C’mon, JokesOn, you know the deal here. The Illuminati among us won’t be happy until they have forced equality laws. Already, the blacks have become a “protected class” as predicted in 1945 by an anti-Illuminati speaker to be used as a political pawn by the Socialists. I wish some of them would read “Harrison Bergeron” by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Jeff, advocating girls’ sports in high school is hardly “against” the free market. I support the free market as well. I just think that in a govenment institution of learning, equality for gender should be present.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

If any of you are unfamiliar with the Illuminati, it is worth your time to find out more about them. Some feel they are an outgrowth of the Sophists and Sadduces of Biblical times. They resurfaced in the late 1600s in Europe with a philosophy and social agenda which they have been very successful in spreading.

By You Put Your Right Foot In

May 7, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Well, my blog hour is up. They are very strict here at the hospital. C U all next week.

By Jack

May 7, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

there was a farmer had a DOG and BINGO was his name-o.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

When you are talking about high school sports, I think the free market has to take a backseat to opportunity.

Don’t you think that the term “opportunity” often times gets confused with entitlement?

Because if we are talking about opportunity, what choices are not available today?

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Monica:

It is (want it? got the money? cool, do it!), and Title IX only discriminates against men. It does NOT inherently promote women. (And, as has been pointed out by Shaunti and others, MUCH of the time, rather than “expand” opportunities for women, schools REDUCE the opportunities for men.)

By 2D

May 7, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Mara… What’s your point? We all agree that there was discrimination in the 50s and 60s. We all agree that Title IX created opportunities for women that otherwise would not have been there. We all agree, or at least should agree, that without sports like football and men’s basketball there would not be any funding for ANY atheltics. So…

Should we alter or get rid of Title IX? You make a great point that Title IX is usually referenced when discussing athletics, so perhaps a different question here is should we create a different set of guidelines for athletics? Regardless of how we describe it, we should be doing whatever we can to encourage the most participation as possible. If that means providing flexibility so a school can have more programs for men than women, or vice versa, then we should.

At some point we have to recognize that the rules created in response to pre 1970 need to be readdressed in a post 2000 society. Our views on gender and race have changed for the better. Keeping these rules in place will, IMHO, serve as a reason for backlash and could actually hinder continued progress.

By Just Being Me

May 7, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

B-I-N-G-O

B-I-N-G-O

B-I-N-G-O

And Bingo was his name-o.

By Just Being Me

May 7, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

I hate that horrible outfit Shaunti is wearing. Conservative Christian soccer moms don’t have to look like… conservative Christian soccer moms.

By Jack

May 7, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

I went wayyyyy back for that one JBM.

By Monica

May 7, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

In the case of our DOG, perhaps we should sing P-O-K-E-R.

By The Hokeeeey Pokeeeeey

May 7, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

In the case of our DOG, perhaps we should sing P-O-K-E-R

Thanks, Monica. You’re a sweetie.

And I’m not ashamed to publicly say that I’ve had my a* kicked by girls many times. Each time, I came away with a new respect. Go ladies!!! I looooove a lady who can kick my a*.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

I have been on a major hot streak at the poker table recently. I picked up the nickname “Holy Roller” once while at Atlantic City after I had a 55 minute long roll. Made 19 passes in a row before crapping out, plus hit every other number 100 times before it was over. Every time I hit, the crowd would roar “PRAISE THE LORD!!”

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

My funniest craps roll came about when the guy next to me started cursing every time I hit a number. At first I was going to object, but he gave me a little wink. I caught on, and started cursing as well every time we raked in the dough. We cursed all the way to the bank that day.

By 2D

May 7, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff… Title IX has provided a great deal of opportunity for women in the world of athletics and consequently it has provided educatonal opportunities otherwise not available.

I don’t think that Title IX only discriminates against men. I see the guidelines as a way to redistribute some of the cash available in athletics to ensure opportunities for everyone. In the educational world that is a good thing. If a school is going to have two revenue pariahs, why should they both be for men? Let there be one for men and one for women. In some cases, it may actually be a situation where one revenue black hole (i.e. men’s wrestling) may actually have been eliminated to create women’s basketball. That has been extremely successful and viable as able to sustain itself. The key, however, is that Title IX should not be used to remove athletic opportunites for the sake of balance.

The Providence Baseball team was a perfect example. It played its last game in the regionals, losing to FSU, several years ago. Why did it get dropped? Was it funding? Nope. It’s because they did not have another women’s sport to balance it out. If I remember correctly, a women’s sport was dropped due to viability and interest and therefore baseball got dropped. That story was the first time I ever really knew about Title IX and quite frankly found myself questioning the entire entitlement/quota system we have become accustomed to since the late 60s/early 70s.

By grlpower

May 7, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Rofl ! What a bunch of whining babies. Poor little boys don’t want the mean girls playing on their playground & playing thier games. Don’t you know the playgrounds were built for boys only? TitleX reduces opportunities for guys? Why because sports are the only things guys can mentally handle? That’s the only way most of them will get into a college? What exactly are these huge opportunities for guys that will be taken away? As opposed to little to zero sports opportunities being offered to girls?

Sports is male dominated enough. Time for change.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

One more life pleasure you’re missing out on chuck—a hot craps roll. When the casino has to bring in another cart full of chips to the table because you’re winning so much, you KNOW the Lord loves you!! PRAISE THE LORD!!

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

Sports is male dominated enough. Time for change.

Well, bring it on, grlpower. Unfortunately, I can already tell that you’re a sidelines loser. You better let some of the real women here do the talking for you, ok?

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Cuz, you see, grlpower, I laugh my a* off every time the media tries to further the illusion that women are equal to men athletically and therefore deserve equal attention and resources. Notice how they keep trying to promote Annika Sorenstam? Too bad she can’t play with the big boys. The top women tennis players can’t even crack the men’s top 300. How about bowling? Pool? Ping Pong? How come men dominate all sports?

No knock here ladies, just a little realism for the illuminati.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

What exactly are these huge opportunities for guys that will be taken away?

Then why are you whining to play sports? If there are no huge opportunities for guys, then what makes you think it something to go after.

Just pointing out that Whiley still has no capability for logic.

If all should be even, lets just make all sports co-ed.

By GOB

May 7, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Don’t you think that the term “opportunity” often times gets confused with entitlement?

Because if we are talking about opportunity, what choices are not available today?

As far as high school sports go, no, I dont think opportunity is confused with entitlement. In high school, kids still have to try out for every sport (except football) in order to be on a team. There is no entitlement there.

As for what isnt available today, it really depends on where you are talking. In the metro area, for the most part, there is enough support for the athletic programs to enable them to offer a lot of sports.

Where you run into a lack of opportunities is in some of the more rural schools, or inner city schools. Those tend to have football programs that have enough gate to keep them running. Smaller programs though, like soccer, volleyball, softball, etc (notice how those are sports with a very high percentage of girls playing) are often not offered due to lack of available coaches, or simply a lack of resources to get a team started.

Even in the metro area, ice hockey is starting to pick up in popularity, but schools only have club teams with very high dues because of the lack of funds available to make it a school or county sponsored sport. It is same thing that lacrosse had to deal with 10 years ago.

By Jeff

May 7, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

2D:

See, I view ANY redistribution scheme as an inherent evil that Government has no right sponsoring. (Yes, I include government programs for anything other than those things explicitly laid out in the Consitution or Declaration. And before you mention “roads” know that the Interstate system was built not to ensure CIVILIAN quick access but MILITARY.)

By 2D

May 7, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Yo grlpower… Quit giving females a bad name by a) misspelling “girlpower” and b) referencing Title X when it is Title IX.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

I’m all for coed wrestling, JokesOn. My luck, though, I’ll have to wrestle someone who looks like Whiley. Shlt!

By 2D

May 7, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff… More than happy to disagree, but the government should be able to ensure equitable use of funds in a public (a.k.a. government) school. They shouldn’t however, simply axe programs for the sake of equity.

In the private sector I would agree (keep quotas and affirmative action out of the workplace), but when it come to public schools, the government should enact programs to increase all participation whether it be athletics, other EC’s like music or the debate club or various classes for students to take. By getting more students, engaged at an earlier level, we will have more and better prepared individuals to enter the workforce and then we will not need to afore mentioned quotas and affirmative action programs in the private sector. We will also have a more interesting populace and a populace better able to effectively participate in our political process.

By Mara

May 7, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

2D - What’s my point!? You said that you didn’t know why the law was even crafted. My point was telling you why they did it. I also thought that adding some statistics on the effects and why, IMHO, it has gotten such a bad rap might give some perspective. I never voiced any opinion, for or against, on whether it’s time to discard it or whether updating might be better.

Maybe tomorrow…but today it’s quittin’ time.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

“I’m all for coed wrestling, JokesOn. My luck, though, I’ll have to wrestle someone who looks like Whiley. Shlt!*

Too funny.

I understand and agree the general point of accessibility to necessary functions in society for all people, but the degree of “must be the same at all costs” seems ridiculous to me.

By Jack

May 7, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Whiley stated long ago that she looks like Cher. I’ll wrestle her.

By grlpower

May 7, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

JokesOn-man-pig how typical you immediately go after what a woman looks like. If you are going to play that way, seeing as how little your dik is a 4th grade girl could kick your butt easily. Why are you still here? Go to I’m a big man.org or something.

I’ve never said women should be playing football or whatever with guys, it’s obvious there is a size & strength issue. Isn’t it about funding more sports for women?
What is the big deal here? When women & men complete in the same sport at times it’s fun to watch.

2D typing fast here, almost time to leave sorry for the typos. : )

Jokes on I was asking what exactly is being taken away from guys because that is what the argument the whinny boys are complaining about. I was asking exactly what is being taken away that is all.

HolyRoller I’m sure you would like to keep a male dominated world, but for most of us it’s boring only to see men in the spotlight all the time. And to be honest most male sports are a bunch of running around knocking each other around aggression. Boring ! Who is the biggest strongest ! Boring. Variety is the spice of life.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

Whiley stated long ago that she looks like Cher. I’ll wrestle her.

Given that she would also say her views are rational and objective in all other matters, I kind of doubt she has an accurate view of herself.

I am picturing a Yeti but not so cute. That would explain the pecs and big hair.

By kimberly

May 7, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

Hey Jack!

Chuck, where the heck were YOU sitting? Hey… remember that time we played Florida on Halloween and the Lamda Chi’s (lamb chops) were dressed like s-perms? Was that funny or what? Geez… we were always lit up in my section, and sometimes we even lit up! Haha! sigh… Good times.

That being said, I understand that as a female I should sit back and politely applaud (or loudly cheer) the accomplishments of male athletes while presuming no such opportunity for me or any of my sistren. And the girl children I know shall receive no encouragement from me to kick booty on the field in any sport, ‘cause that’s the way God made us, you know… to cheer y’all on, not to try ourselves, right? NOT!

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Jack, I love Cher’s acting, but that image of her butt from the “If I Could Turn Back Time” video caused me to be impotent for a moth. Acting-wise, her performance in “Mask” was incredible. Tip of the hat to Eric Stoltz on that one too. Very moving.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

grlpower, I don’t like to see a male-dominated world. Not at all. I’ve had several female bosses, and they were the only ones who didn’t fire me.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

One tip when wrestling redheads, though. Protect the groin area at all times. Ouuuuuch!

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

One of my poker buddies has a sign in his house: “Liquor in the front, Poker in the rear”. They all seem to think there is some double meaning here, but I can’t figure it out. Any ideas, grlpower? The truth is, at our games, the women cuss more than the men.

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

Gotta love that Todd Rundgren, though. He opened the show by saying, “Tonight, we are going to offend you!”. Then they proceeded to peel the paint from the walls. Tony Levin was on bass—the second greatest living bassist next to Chris Squire, IMO. Who knew Todd Rundgren was a hard rocker?

By Jack

May 7, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Hi Sweetness!

By The Holy Roller

May 7, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Good news: Only 3 months and three more weeks before kickoff. Hope the Auburn fans don’t cry in their beers too much this year.

By JokesOn

May 7, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

JokesOn-man-pig how typical you immediately go after what a woman looks like.

You have already discredited your mind and and spirit which I have addressed, what is left but your looks?

Jokes on I was asking what exactly is being taken away from guys because that is what the argument the whinny boys are complaining about.

It is your use of “whine” that shows your true colors (sexism) and in-ability to think for a second that men can be treated wrong.

You are fine with a group of boys not being able to play a sport they love (that has the draw, funding, etc) based purely on the fact that there is not a female sport to weigh it against. That is simply stupid and sexist.

By grlpower

May 7, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

lol Holy Roller that sign is so redneck but it’s still FUNNY !

JokesOn take your little DIC somewhere else & stop belittling women & the way they look.

Cher is a superstar, would love to see her in movies again.

By chuck

May 8, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Hi Kimmie, Years ago I sat in the nosebleed section on the home sideline. Now I sit in section 12 in the corner of the south endzone across from the student section. Mostly alumni and families down there.

By Chris

May 8, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Let’s get rid of Title IX, Affirmative Action and any other “entitlement” and write a law saying this,”No citizen of the United States shall be denied the same opportunities as another unless that person is a minor or have committed a crime of moral turpitude.” That should cover women, white males, blacks, gays, and any other citizen of this great nation!

By Mara

May 8, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Moral Turpitude is the gross disregarding of moral standards expected of a human being…

and exactly WHO gets to decide what “moral standard” is to be used to judge the turpitude of the offender? I see you included gays in your list of people that your law would “cover”. Some people believe that being gay is an affront to moral standards. Some think that just socializing with the opposite sex is immoral. We can guess what some folks think about unwed mothers, artist who work with nude models, Evolution, drinkers, smokers, and midnight tokers, honkey tonks, and viewers of pornography.

You can’t legislate morality and still remain a free society.

By Jack

May 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Mara. You forgot the jokers, and those getting their lovin on the run.

By Monica

May 8, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Well, at least they are trying to remove the spam when it comes up today!

Mara, maybe Chris meant crimes of severe vileness, such as murder, rape, grand theft, etc.

Jack, it took me a while to get your comment (testing time and my brain is fried), but I get it now. Funny! :)

By Mara

May 8, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

LOL @ Jack! :^)

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

And I speak of the pompotous of love. Cuz’ I’m a picker, I’m a grinner, I’m a lover, and I’m a sinner. I get my lovin’ on the run.

P.S. Public apology to Auburn fans. I was just being a smart-a* yesterday. I pull for the Tigers when they aren’t playing Gawga.

By womanpower

May 8, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Hey, bubbas, get used to it. You white guys cannot hold us down or control us anymore. We don’t need you anymore. We buy our own houses, make our own money, adopt our children or have them with artificial insemination. And your poor little weak egos can’t stand it. You refuse to change and live in the new world of equality with women. You don’t want to negotiate for the pie but, guess what, you have to!

By chuck

May 8, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

That’s okay brudog. My 2 favorite teams are Auburn and whoever is playing Georgia.

By chuck

May 8, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Oh, and I would not have included the word “SMART” in that statement.

By JokesOn

May 8, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Speaking of old songs, this one is for Whiley:

Really don’t mind if you sit this one out.

My words but a whisper — your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can’t make you think. Your sperm’s in the gutter — your love’s in the sink. So you ride yourselves over the fields and you make all your animal deals and your wise men don’t know how it feels to be thick as a brick. And the sand-castle virtues are all swept away in the tidal destruction the moral melee. The elastic retreat rings the close of play as the last wave uncovers the newfangled way. But your new shoes are worn at the heels and your suntan does rapidly peel and your wise men don’t know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

By Mara

May 8, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Monica - maybe he DID mean violent felonies but that’s not what he said. Rape, murder etc may indeed be immoral (IMO) but more importantly they are illegal. And even so, our penal system is base on protecting people and their property, not on punishing moral wrongs…which are, in any event, subjective opinions. Even the Title IX law is premised on protecting the rights of all citizens to be given equal access to government funded opportunities.

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

So, how the heck is everyone this morning? All just busy beavers working at your jobs? Everyone feeling well? Anyone got a cool vacation coming up?

Anyone have a good song in their mind? Anyone thinking of someone special today? Anyone greet a stranger with a warm smile this AM? Anyone have a stranger greet you with a warm smile that melted away the morning grouchiness?

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Aw, chuckie is jealous again…..

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Mara, not to pick a fight this AM, but your separation of “crimes” from “immoral acts” is artificial. Every criminal act is considered immoral,although some immoral acts don’t rise to the level of criminality. However, they remain one and the same.

By chuck

May 8, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Mara, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but we DO INDEED legislate morality. We have laws against pornography, sex between minors, sex with minors, using drugs like marijuana, public drunkenness and many others.

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Also, Mara, out of curiosity, where do your own personal morals come from? Are they based on a vision of God, or are they all derived from a “humanist” standpoint only? I won’t rip you this morning, just curious.

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Now, if we could just pass some laws against religious hypocrisy…… What do you think, chuck?

By chuck

May 8, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Or maybe against being an annoying little pest who talks to people who don’t care.

By chuck

May 8, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

I just violated the number 1 law of the blog…I fed the troll.

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Aw, chuck, you’re hurting my feelings again…

Wonder how the Auburn fans of the world feel about having you on the “team”, chuckie-baby? If you can get some support today here on the blog, I will publicly say that you kicked my a*. How’s that sound?

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

That will be the perfect exit for me, chuck.

C’mon out, chuckie fans. Cheer him on! Tell chuck how great he is!

By The Space Cowboy

May 8, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Tell you what, chuck. I won’t even stick around for the votes. You are the king of the blog. You kicked my a*. All hail chuckie!!

By Love Song For chuckie

May 8, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

I’ll always love you for the rest of my days You have won my heart and my soul With your sweet, sexy ways You gave me hope when I needed someone near You bring me happiness every day of every year I’ll always love you for all that you are You have made my life complete You’re my lucky star You are the one that I’ve been searching for You are my everything Tell me who could ask for more And I’ll always love you Honey, this will never end I need you by my side, Baby You’re my lover, my friend My friend You gave my world a thrill I’ve never known. And filled my eager heart with a love to call my own. And I’ll always love you You must know how much I do. You can count on me forever and I will take good care of you. I’ll always love you I’m so happy that you’re mine I’ll always love you, yes Till the end of time

Yes, there’s no one like you, chuck.

By Mara

May 8, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

chuck - We have laws against pornography, sex between minors, sex with minors, using drugs like marijuana, public drunkenness and many others

sigh…we don’t have laws against them because they are immoral but because they are deemed dangerous for the people involved. Let’s take the sex laws for example. Minors are considered, by law, to be too immature to make their own decisions regarding consensual sex. It is seen as being harmful to them, because they are both physically and psychologically unready for it. Ditto toward adult-minor sex, but it’s considered more egregious because an adult should KNOW the monor is vulnerable and immature. And the only pornography that I know is illegal is child porn, because it is damaging to the child. None of those reasons are morality based. Even the issues of public drunkeness and drug usage are predicated NOT on whether being drunk or high is immoral, but on whether it is safe for you or others to BE drunk in public. Drunk people tend to do stupid things which can endanger innocent bystanders. Even the drug laws are (supposedly) because drugs are physically harmful. All of these laws, while YOU may interpret them as morally mandated, are firmly based in public safety. Some laws are ambiguous as to their reason (like prostitution, marijuana, etc) but we in America, as yet, do not make laws simply because someone thinks something is “immoral”.

By Love Song For chuckie

May 8, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

No one in the world Ever had a love as sweet as my love For nowhere in the wolrd Could there be a boy as true as you love

All my love I give gladly to you All your love You give gladly to me Tell me why then Oh why should it be that

We go on hurting each other We go on hurting each other Making each other cry Hurting each other Without ever knowing why

Close than the leaves On a weepin’ willow baby we are Closer dear are we Than the simple letters “A” and “B” are

All my life I could love only you All your life You could love only me Tell me why than Oh why should it be that

We go on hurting each other We go on hurting each other Making each other cry Hurting each other Without ever knowing why

Can’t we stop hurting each other Gotta stop hurting each other Making each other cry Breaking each other’s heart Tearing each other apart

You see, chuck, you’re the Daddy I could never please. Whip me one more time. Why not?

By Cat Stevens

May 8, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

I listen to the wind To the wind of my soul Where I’ll end up well I think, Only God really knows I’ve sat upon the setting sun But never, never never never I never wanted water once No, never, never, never

I listen to my words but They fall far below I let my music take me where My heart wants to go I swam upon the devil’s lake But never, never never never I’ll never make the same mistake No, never, never, never

Hope springs eternally.

By Cat Stevens Farewell

May 8, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Oh I’m on my way, I know I am, somewhere not so far from here All I know is all I feel right now, I feel the power growing in my head Sitting on my own not by myself, everybody’s here with me I don’t need to touch your face to know, and I don’t need to use my eyes to see

I keep on wondering if I sleep too long, will I always wake up the same (or so)? And keep on wondering if I sleep too long, will I even wake up again or something Oh I’m on my way I know I am, but times there were when I thought not Bleeding half my soul in bad company, I thank the moon I had the strength to stop

I’m not making love to anyone’s wishes, only for that light I see ‘Cause when I’m dead and lowered low in my grave, that’s gonna be the only thing that’s left of me And if I make it to the waterside, will I even find me a boat (or something)? And if I make it to the waterside, I’ll be sure to write you not or something

Oh I’m on my way, I know I am, somewhere not so far from here All I know is all I feel right now, I feel the power growing in my head

Oh life is like a maze of doors and they all open from the side you’re on Just keep on pushing hard boy, try as you may You’re going to wind up where you started from You’re going to wind up where you started from

By Mara

May 8, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

I’m almost missing the spam…

By GOB

May 8, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Wonder how the Auburn fans of the world feel about having you on the “team”, chuckie-baby? If you can get some support today here on the blog, I will publicly say that you kicked my a. How’s that sound?*

I would rather have someone like Chuck supporting the same team as me than you (and I am UGA season ticket holder). Although I agree with virtually nothing he says, he hasnt destroyed this blog, and seems to be a normal person. You on the other hand…

By chuck

May 8, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

HMMMMM, the “dog” calling himself “cat”…are you having species issues Bruce?

By chuck

May 8, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

BTW Bruce Myers, If taking a vote had worked, you would have left the blog MONTHS ago.

By chuck

May 8, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Hi praise indeed coming from a dawg fan. The operative word her is “NORMAL”.

Pup,I think if any normal person objectively read your posts, they would have you committed Brucey.

By Archie

May 8, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Mara and Chuck,hello, I am coming to your conversation late but I have to disagree with Mara’s 1:08 pm post just a little because the law against prostitution is about morals,otherwise it would legal here just as it is in that county out in Las Vegas and there is some porn that’s considered illegal and the standard is “having no scientific,literary, value and purely appealing to prurient interest”. I did not quote that quite right but it has been a long time that I read that definition. Mara is right that most laws are based on hurt,harm, and danger but lawmakers always split verbs and some laws are really just about legislating morality. Some counties here in SC structure laws to keep strip clubs from operating there by telling the business owner he can’t operate within 700 ft of a church,well there is a church on just about every 700 ft in SC. The laws against gay marriage are nothing but someone legislating morality, i.e. someone feels it’s fundamentally wrong for men to marry men so they put in a law to stop it. I know what Mara was trying to say but our lawmakers do legislate morality at times.

By Monica

May 8, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

Hi praise indeed coming from a dawg fan.

C’mon now, Chuck! I pull for Auburn when they’re not playing Georgia. The UGA/Auburn games are some of the most memorable - the first overtime game in college football history for example. If you’re going to hate someone in the SEC, let it be Flordia! However, Florida is not as much fun to hate since Spurrier left.

By Jeff

May 8, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

One of the greatest things about Football in this state: For a couple of hours every week in the fall, everyone drops religion/ politics and just has a blast together.

By petunia

May 8, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Archie - I thought that the anti-gay marriage stuff was supposed to protect heterosexual (i.e. “taditional”) marriage! THAT’S not a moral issue…LOL!! (just joking…)

I’ll give ya the prostitution thing…though the argument could be made about health concerns, illegal activities that often accompany prostitution, and the probability of increased sex trafficking.

quittin’ time…

By 2D

May 8, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Archie… Don’t forget the “blue laws” that prevent liquor sales on Sundays.

I do agree with Mara, however, that our laws should be based on the protection of property not subjection of the masses to one’s moral code. However, where does affirmative action and all of the “entitlement” laws stem: protection of property or morality?

If our laws and penal system stem from the protection of property, then government should not have the ability to forcibly require private employers to hire “minority” candidates. If the government wishes to impose those standards on the workforce it employes or have a policy of not contracting with employers who do not follow those guidelines, then so be it. Outside of that, based on Mara’s own statement, the government should have no say whatsoever.

By Bruce M

May 8, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Don’t worry guys—I’m not as crazy as you might think. Just have a perverse desire to play wicked games sometimes…..But,if no one wants to play anymore, I’ll just have to go back to being sweet, l’il ol’ me out in the real world again and leave this blog wickedness behind.

Big hug to everyone, especially to the one who won’t have me. Sorry I’m not good enough for you. xoxoxox

By JokesOn

May 8, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Take it easy dog.

By Aguilar181

May 8, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

 öåëîì ïîãîäû íå ñäåëàåò, íàäåþñü :) 141 áàçû êîíñóëüòàíò ïëþñ êóïèòü êîíñóëüòàíò ïëþñ

By Archie

May 9, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this

• In the 1950s the U.S. Supreme Court began to relax rules prohibiting the possession, sale, and distribution of obscene material, often called pornography, but in 1973 that trend was reversed. The court ruled that material that appealed to prurient interest in sex and that did not have serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value could be banned as obscene. It ruled that a national definition of obscenity was not necessary and, therefore, that communities could develop local standards within the court’s guidelines.* I apologize to Mara and Chuck for taking the conversation further than you guys but it gave me a chance to look up something from my collegiate days. It looks like Chuck is kinda right to a certain extent but Mara is right that laws should be based hurt,harm and danger and to some extent, order.

By Monica

May 9, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

I’ll give ya the prostitution thing…though the argument could be made about health concerns, illegal activities that often accompany prostitution, and the probability of increased sex trafficking.

If that were the case, then sex outside of marriage could also be considered harmful to one’s health (with the health concerns aspect, and for some, the illegal activities that accompany sex), especially if one is not certain about the number of partners that his or her current interest has had. Just a thought.

I agree that laws should be free of “morality”, unless it’s the same morality I’m talking about :) JK.

By Chris

May 9, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Sorry, I guess I should have explained myself a little better. By moral turpitude, I meant any crimes that are committed for which one loses his or her rights such as when a person commits a felony, that person then loses their right to vote. That is what I meant. Also, it is true that some consider being gay immoral, that is all well in good, folks are entitled to their own opinion. Remember thought that some folks also believe that mixing of the races is also immoral. Some moral belongs in the churches, synagogues, mosques, those questions of morality that does not cause harm to another. However, some moral issues need laws prohibiting such behavior such as exposing ones self in public, and a host of others. What I meant by my previous post is that instead of having fifty different laws protecting each and every minority group, we need a blanket non discrimination act covering all people. No one should be denied equal protection under the law nor should one be denied the same rights enjoyed by another because he/she is a different skin tone, a different sex, or sleeps with the same sex. We are all trying to make it in this world the best we can. Why throw up obstacles in the way of some? Why deny a chance at happiness to others, as long as they are not harming you? I am not advocating legalizing drugs or other crazy ideas floated around, but what I am speaking of is common sense. I am not a right wing nut job or a left wing commie just an ordinary person living day by day, paycheck to paycheck. I really think we need to return to common decency and RESPECT for others that’s all.

Thanks.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

That’s cool Archie. This blog always goes farther than people intend. That’s what makes it interesting. Your point was a valid one. I however, contend that almost all of our laws legislate morality. Not just the few that I listed. This would include laws against burglary, armed robbery, murder, etc. These laws are based on MORALS. Take a look at the definition of morals according to “dictionary.com”:

mor·al
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

By Monica

May 9, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

Ya know, yesterday in our library I looked up the word “turpitudem” in the Webster’s Third International Dictionary, and it wasn’t in there! Was this a word created by politicians and ethics committees? The education community loves to throw this word around.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

tur·pi·tude
–noun 1. vile, shameful, or base character; depravity.
2. a vile or depraved act.

—Synonyms 1. wickedness, vice, vileness, wrongdoing.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

One person put it like this:

Morality is about right and wrong, and that’s what laws put into legal form. Can you think of one law which doesn’t declare one behavior right and its opposite wrong? The truth is all laws legislate morality (even speed limits imply a moral right to life). And everyone in politics — conservatives, libertarians and liberals — is trying to legislate morality.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

AND…what about these issues? Are they not moral issues?

affirmative action

homosexuality

smoking

euthanasia

government health care

arts funding

welfare

All of these issues have been argued by Mara, 72john and others from the left as moral issues that should be legislated.

By 2D

May 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Chuck… The thing is, morality is subjective and we want our laws to be objective. That is why our laws are primarily based around protection of person and personal property.

If it doesn’t clearly fall into one of those scenarios, then the govenrment should keep out.

My previous example was “blue laws”. There is not reason, other than observance of a Christian holy day, to have them in effect. Therefore they should be abolished. There is not a good reason why I can buy a nice bottle of wine on Saturday, but not on Sunday.

By Chris

May 9, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Chuck,

Affirmative Action: If I am a private business owner, the gov’t has no right to tell me who to hire and fire, period. A gov’t organization should not discriminate for any reason but there should not be legislation for a racial ratio.

Homosexuality: The gov’t has no business here. Gay marriage, if the gov’t has benefits (tax or any other) for being married, they should not deny it to a group of people.

Smoking: If I want to smoke twenty packs a day, no one’s business, tobacco is a legal product. If a person does not want to eat or drink where there is smoking, don’t go there but do not tell the business owner that people cannot smoke.

Euthanasia: Not sure, get back to you on this one.

Government health care: Unless this is Canada or Europe, there should be no such thing. A person should be held responsible for his/her actions and of they have children, be prepared to pay for them.

Arts funding: Why should the gov’t fund art???

Welfare: Strict requirements should be imposed and should be made available for only the truly needy.

Government should be as hands off as possible not a nanny state or throwing money at everything. Does not make any sense. Once again, common sense.

By Archie

May 9, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Chuck, you did good for awhile then you went crazy. Speed limits are about order and hurt,harm and danger because plenty of christians break the speed limit all the time. I know this because I have done so. Nobody died when I broke the speed limit but if I keep on breaking it with no discernment of others then hurt,harm, and danger comes into play not morals. I say that because some places don’t have a speed limit meaning those states don’t perceive driving a certain speed a moral right. People drive with the flow of traffic. Are their morals bad? Why does one county in Vegas allow brothels but everywhere else in America such places are illegal—morals that’s why, but laws that say I must have car insurance are not moral they are about protecting property as Mara said because I don’t have to drive a car. I only disagreed with Mara a little bit because she was right about most of our laws but some laws are just purely morality based. Laws against gambling are moral laws in my opinion because you can go to New Jersey and gamble to your heart’s content but here in South Carolina it’s not allowed because lawmakers feel it’s not the right kind of conduct. There are so many contradictions in society when it comes to sex,drugs, and gambling. As a christian I think one should stay away from vices but that’s a personal opinion not a reason for a law. Grown folk should be able to make decisions whether or not they want to engage in something immoral.

By 2D

May 9, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Chuck… My last post was posted before I saw your list.

I actually think that Mara, John and others have indicated that homosexuality should NOT be regulated b/c it is an issue of morality. I feel the same way. The same can be said about euthanasia.

I also believe that the issue of smoking is clear in that the laws do not prevent people from smoking, but from smoking in “public places”. This protects the health of non-smokers so is absolutely under the legislative umbrella. In fact, one could argue that parents should not be able to smoke while with their children. That puts the health of the child at risk and since the child can not make their own decision to leave the situation, they are subjected to harmful actions against their will.

One could argue that government health care and welfare laws protect the health of citizens and is therefore available for legislation. I persoanlly believe that the private sector can provide better options for health care and welfare, but I can where the debate can be made this is not a moral issue.

Arts funding is a joke. The government should not be funding this, but I don’t know if we can determine that based on whether or not it is a moral issue. Good artists, writers, etc. will find “patrons” (i.e. people to buy their works). Bad artists won’t and therefore will get government endowments. So it’s simply a poor expenditure of funds.

Affirmative action is the only issue on which we can agree that has no business being legislated based on it being a moral issue, and if moral issues have no business being legislated, this should get tossed, and tossed quickly.

By Archie

May 9, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

I have been for universal healthcare so I am on Mara,72John and others side when it comes to that. As a christian I want all to have healthcare because all people get sick. Affirmative action involves hurt and harm and to some extent morals. The only law about smoking is that you can’t do it in certain restaurants, and in the presence of small children but that involves harm and danger. Arts funding is not a moral issue but euthansia and homosexuality laws are based on morals. Also I think Chuck purposely takes things out of context because I have argued for some of the things he listed not because of morals but because of hurt,harm, and danger.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

The only moral basis in law is the notion that people have the right to pursue happiness. All laws are supposed to protect this belief. Of course this has not always, nor will, happen. But none the less, it is the the basis of our legal system.

There will always be those, like chuck, that will try to confused the issue in order to push their specific agenda.

affirmative action: Protect minorities RIGHTS

homosexuality: Protect minorities RIGHTS

smoking: Protect second-handers RIGHTS

euthanasia: Protect RIGHTS

government health care: Protect RIGHTS to pursue happiness (cannot do that if dead;)

arts funding: Not sure what LAWS apply here, except ones that apply to freedom of speech (RIGHTS)

welfare: Protect RIGHTS to pursue happiness (cannot do that if dead or despondent;)

By 2D

May 9, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

Archie… Of course Chuck takes takes things out of context, but virtually everyone (including myself) do so on this BLOG.

However, while we can debate health care, I don’t see where there is a debate on affirmative action. It is a moral issue and therefore should not be forced by the government on to non-governmental entities. Again, if the government chooses to employ those practices or only seek to do business with those who also employ those practices, then we can agree. But the government has no business forcing affirnmative action, or other market based items like a minimum wage on the private sector.

Here’s an interesting experiment: Abolish all affirmtive action and minimum wage laws but have the government entities keep them and pledge only to do business with private entities who also kept them. What do you think would happen?

By Archie

May 9, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Good job, JokesOn I was trying not to take the original discussion between Mara and Chuck too far but you have added some levity to the discussion and it’s needed. I do think it’s a shame that a country with this much wealth does not cover all of it’s people. 45 million without health insurance is enough to represent and entire ethnic group. Also it is impossible to do whatever you want hiring-wise and not discriminate. Homos have been around forever,pardon the abbreviation, and they should not be discriminated against whether we(heterosexuals) like them or not.

By Mara

May 9, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

chuck, chris - in the past our government has instituted laws based solely on morality but most of those have either been repealed, are never invoked anymore, or were judged unconstitutional. A few of 2D’s “blue laws” are still in force, but they are slowly falling by the wayside too. Let me also say that I don’t necessarily agree with the way the law looks at an issue (For example, I personally support each individual’s right to make their own life/death decisions. The law says that we don’t have that right.)

affirmative action - ostensibly provides for equal opportunities to be available to all people. Just because Chris may find working with asians or homosexuals distasteful, allowing him to discriminate against them for that alone is not in the interests of equality or justice.

homosexuality - equal protection under law. All citizens should be allowed the same rights, priveliges, and protections of the constitution.

smoking - based on public health issues. Cancer and all that. Doesn’t mean I agree with it, but it certainly isn’t a “morals” issue.

euthanasia - that one is easy. It falls solidly under the “protection” part of judicial reasoning. If government is tasked with the job of “protecting” life, liberty, etc., obviously euthanasia would go against that.

government health care? - other than Medicare/Medicaid I wasn’t aware there were any laws with government and health care. If we DID mandate “universal healthcare” (or as Republicans call it…”socialized medicine”) I’m sure it wouldn’t be because we were morally obliged to do it. It would be done to protect the health of the broader society. Healthy workers are better than sick ones. And its cheaper to keep people healthy than it is to heal them once they’re sick.

arts funding - er…I have to admit that I was under the impression that this was a budget choice not a legal mandate. The congress passes a budget bill that allocates a certain amount of money to fund the arts, but I don’t know as there is a law that says they have to fund them. If one loves art and is delighted that the government perpetuates the creation of beauty through government funding, I don’t see that as a “moral” issue.

welfare - see the above discussion on “socialized medicine”. Add in the reasoning that worried, homeless, hungery citizens are significantly less productive and you have a solidly NON-moral reason for welfare.

finally, if I have ever argued that any law should be made based solely on someones MORAL opinion …well, either I was playing “devil’s advocate” or somebody slipped me a mickie because that goes against everything that I believe about the law.

Hi Archie.

By 2D

May 9, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Jokes On… You’ve gotten everything backwards. Our government was designed to pass laws that protect rights. All rights are implied unless the government passes a law to restrict them. The government should be prevented from passing laws that restrict the pursuit of happiness. they should not be apssing laws to secure them.

Affirmative Action: The government should NOT be allowed to pass laws that restricts a person’s ability to work. No one has a right to a job. there is a big difference between the government making a decree that a subset of society does not have the right to work and an employer saying I prefer to not hire from that same subset of society.

Euthanasia: The government should NOT be allowed to pass laws that restrict the practice.

Homosexuality: The government should NOT be allowed to pass laws that restrict the practice.

Smoking: The government should be allowed to pass laws ONLY that protect non-smokers.

Government health care: This is a debateable.

Arts funding: The government should NOT pass laws that restrict free speech. Providing funding for arts does not protect free speech it simply wastes taxpayer money.

Welfare: This is a debateable issue.

By Mara

May 9, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

2D - Arts funding: The government should NOT pass laws that restrict free speech. Providing funding for arts does not protect free speech it simply wastes taxpayer money

how does government funding of the arts restrict free speech?

By Archie

May 9, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

But the government has no business forcing affirnmative action, or other market based items like a minimum wage on the private sector.

I don’t agree with you and remember the government is the people not some out of space alien. Any sociologist will tell you certain numbers should not exist if things were done fairly in this society since the 1776 and no man should enslave another and without the minimum wage that’s what you would get. Discrimination involves economic harm and it had a domino effect that has lasted for centuries but inspite of affirmative action the 99 percent of department heads in any state government are white males. My department head is not but the people next in line are white males. I don’t know how much better one can have it? Women and minorities only a earn a fraction of what white males earn even when you factor in education. I know I have two degrees but I have been supervised by folk with a 2 yr degree and it does make you wonder about the amount of money spent for college but that’s another question. The government or people need to regulate private businesses in kinds of areas because some folk just aren’t going to do the right thing, plain and simple. Kevin Geddings who by all accounts is a wealthy man was just convicted of lying about his connection with a gaming company that involves the lottery in North Carolina. Martha Stewart had no business being convicted for such a small amount of money but she didn’t do the right thing even though she has enormous wealth. Basically with some people I wonder what are you complaining about? Life is set up pretty well for you…

By chuck

May 9, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

2d, you said:

I actually think that Mara, John and others have indicated that homosexuality should NOT be regulated b/c it is an issue of morality. I feel the same way. The same can be said about euthanasia.

They have actually argued that gay marriage should be LEGALIZED or given the same LEGAL standing as Heterosexual marriage. That would require legislation to accomplish, thereby legislating “morality”, or in my opinion, legislating IMMORALITY. They believe it is MORALLY wrong to deny marriage to gays if it is available to heterosexuals. So the question is not whether we should or should not legislate MORALITY. We already do that. THE QUESTION IS WHOSE MORALITY WILL WE LEGISLATE.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Thanks Archie.

It is easy to see how people extend that original moral basis to the laws that spring from it.

I find it disturbing that the groups (religious for example) arguing against other groups having rights (gays for example) already have their rights secured. Seems these privileged groups should have theirs in question for a while in order to open their eyes.

By Chris

May 9, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Ok, I am not a racist or homophobe. I believe in hiring a person based on his/her qualifications. However, if a private company does not want to hire me because I am gay, then that should be their decision, and right now it is. Or if they did not want to hire me because I am white, that is their decision. The gov’t should not be involved in the hiring practices of a private business. If the gov’t wants to do business based on affirmative action then by all means go ahead. A company should not be mandated to have a certain ration of whites and blacks, men and women, so on and so forth. Where is the sense in that? A job is not a right! As for socialized medicine, why should tax money go to provide health care for those who irresponsibly have children? If you cannot afford them, do not have them. If a person is working and loses their job, then I understand but restrict it, limit it. Health care is available for a price, nothing is free. All of this is about entitlements. Why do certain groups think that they are entitled something? No one in this country is entitled anything that is not spelled out in the Constitution. That is all we are entitled, everything else we have to work for and earn. A valuable lesson we all need to relearn.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

No one has a right to a job. : The last time I checked AA did not ensure everyone had a job, but that they had equal chance to a job as others. (we are discussing the reason here, not whether I or you agree with its implementation)

Besides that one point, you expressed what I was saying and must have misunderstood my point: Laws are intended to be about protecting RIGHTS.

By Chris

May 9, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Chuck,

You stated, “They have actually argued that gay marriage should be LEGALIZED or given the same LEGAL standing as Heterosexual marriage. That would require legislation to accomplish, thereby legislating “morality”, or in my opinion, legislating IMMORALITY. They believe it is MORALLY wrong to deny marriage to gays if it is available to heterosexuals. So the question is not whether we should or should not legislate MORALITY. We already do that. THE QUESTION IS WHOSE MORALITY WILL WE LEGISLATE.”

Ok, The question of morality and gay marriage, take out the religious aspect for two seconds, is that heterosexual couples allowed to marry have tax benefits provided by the gov’t. If the gov’t took away those tax incentives, I would have no problem with not legalizing gay marriage and I am gay. The moral thing to do is either take away the tax incentive or provide a way for all to have access to them.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

THE QUESTION IS WHOSE MORALITY WILL WE LEGISLATE.

No. The argument is that gays should have the RIGHT to marry; to ignore/repeal that RIGHT is immoral.

That notion of moral refers directly back to the inherit rights all people have, which is the only moral stance and is the foundation of RIGHTS.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

Chris,

I agree with: The moral thing to do is either take away the tax incentive or provide a way for all to have access to them.

Except that the accurate way to put it is: The EQUAL RIGHTS thing to do is either take away the tax incentive or provide a way for all to have access to them.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

mo·ral·i·ty n.
The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct

What is welfare/medicare/medicaid other than attempt to save the health and physical well being of the poor and aged. This is probably the definition of legislating morality. These are the arguments: It would be WRONG to let little children go hungry. It just isn’t right for people to not have access to healthcare. These are MORAL arguments.

Affirmative Action attempts to legislate EQUALITY of opportunity. What argument for this practice can be made except to call discrimination WRONG. Questions of right and wrong are MORAL questions, so don’t tell me that we don’t legislate morality. EVERYBODY is in favor of legislating morality. AGAIN, the BATTLE is over WHOSE MORALITY we will legislate.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Archie, you said:

The government or people need to regulate private businesses in kinds of areas because some folk just aren’t going to do the right thing, plain and simple.

In other words, regulations imposed by the government are to force people to do the right thing!!!That my friend is LEGISLATING MORALITY.

By kimberly

May 9, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Hey y’all. Busy today, but I have to say this:

If you don’t want the state to confer the status and legal rights of marriage to homosexuals, fine. Then the state should confer these to NO ONE. If your daughter can grow up in Georgia and marry a man of her mutual choosing, then SO CAN YOUR SON, or there is no equal protection under the law, and the law is bogus. America is NOT a free country, nor Georgia a free state, as long as people who think like Chuck can have their feel-good morality laws governing things that are NONE OF THEIR BEESWAX. In short, BIGOTS s-ck.

By Archie

May 9, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

The last time I checked AA did not ensure everyone had a job, but that they had equal chance to a job as others.

Good job, JokesOn. No. The argument is that gays should have the RIGHT to marry; to ignore/repeal that RIGHT is immoral.

Good job again JokesOn. I can’t get too mad at Chuck though because for years I had a certain attitude about homosexuality but after reading and watching a certain Oprah show I changed my views.

By Chris

May 9, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

Ok, so it is suddenly me job now to care for all the poor children and the aged and others. The gov’t takes my money, the money i work hard for on a weekly basis and divides it up among the poor and aged. Why? Where does it say they have a right to my money? They have no RIGHT to that. My rights are being violated due to unnecessary seizures of my property. That is a right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States. If someone feels moved or obligated to assist the poor, let them do so by voluntarily contributing to various charities and organizations, but not by force. Another example of moral legislation.

By Mara

May 9, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

chuck - the cornerstone of this great country is twofold. First, all men are created equal and second, all men are equal under the law. In general, it doesn’t matter whether any given law has a “moral” aspect, that is NOT the basis of most laws. One can say that it is “immoral” to discriminate against gays, (that is, to keep from them the same opportunities as a hetero would have), but that isn’t why the law would be wrong. It would be wrong because it would directly circumvent the founding priciples of America. Note that there is no judgement on whether homosexuality is, in itself, and immoral thing. As for health care, that’s a “protection” and “economic” issue. If someone with a dangerous desease has no access to healthcare, they can infect a LOT of people. THAT has nothing to do with morality. Plus, the sick cost money. Productivity is lost, wages are lost, sales are lost, doctors bills, drug costs, and on and on. That a sickly labor force hurts the bottom line is a fact of economics, NOT an issue of morality. I could go through your list (as I did earlier) but that’s not going to impact your opinion that everything is based on someones personal opinion, i.e. their “morals”.

Let’s face it. Government (ideally) makes laws to protect its citizens well-being and property. It isn’t (or at least it shouldn’t be) in the business of saving their souls…and that has nothing to do with morality or the lack thereof.

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By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Excellent discussion today!

The word “moral” comes from the Latin word “more” which simply means “custom”. Through time, it has taken on a greater meaning and is now defined as “right conduct”. As such, ALL laws are moral in nature, since they prescribe legal penalties for “wrong conduct” like DUI or beating your wife. Again, not every “moral” is codified into Law, but every Law certainly has a “moral” basis. To deny this is foolish.

The real problem comes in when discussing “right” and “wrong” behaviors which don’t involve public safety issues. Among the “liberal” faction of our population, there is a feeling that these kinds of “morals” have no place in our lives, or at the minimum are totally subjective and can only be decided on an individual basis. Honestly, this makes a lot of sense, but only if you start from a “humanist” standpoint in which the terms “good” and “bad” have no meaning other than what feels good. At the other extreme, the “fundies” among us want everyone to follow the morals prescribed by the Bible. Not a bad place to start, but there is a lot of danger following that path as well for many reasons, chief among them that the Bible is essentially an ancient, oft-mistranslated document.

The answer to this quandary, IMO, involves a deeper look at the words “good” and “bad”. What makes an action “good” or “bad”? Philosophers have tried to answer this question for thousands of years with no definitive answer. The only perspective which makes sense to me involves a consideration of the concept of “purpose”. From this perspective, actions which fulfill our “purpose” in Life are “good” and those which are contrary to our “purpose” are “bad”. How this all shakes out into a practical guide to live by isn’t simple, but a consideration of “purpose” is the only basis which rings true to me. Discovering our “purpose” can be a wondrous journey which involves reading spiritual guides like the Bible, but can never be completely delineated by any one book.

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

From the perspective of “purpose”, no one should ever be forced to follow any given set of moral precepts because such forced morality is actually immoral. God designed us to have free will, and this should be respected at all times. As such, abortion, prostitution, and drug use should remain free choices, IMO, as long as public safety is not compromised. However, this is NOT to say that these choices are “moral”, because a good argument can be made that such activities are degrading to the human spirit.

Since making Laws for such activities is questionable, but they are essentially negative activities, how should society deal with such issues? Personally, I believe it can only come through leadership, i.e. a good example. That is why, despite all the good he did, I can’t accept Bill Clinton’s leadership. Believe me, I’ve f*** up way more than he ever did, but at least I admit that I have been wrong.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers?

By 2D

May 9, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Jokes On… No I didn’t misunderstand. Laws are not about protecting people’s rights. All rights are implied under our Consitution. We the poeple provide the government the ability to restrict rights. We do have laws that grant certain privileges (i.e. a driver’s license) but not rights. I don’t believe the government gives me ANY rights. The government provides nothing but protection for my personal property and basic infrastructure (i.e. roads, etc.). Anything more and I don’t want it and don’t really want to support it. I’ll would rather provide for the folks less fortunate than myself through private means. My dollars would go farther than into the governmental bureaucracy.

I stand by the idea that noone has the right to a job and if the government has any standing in the employment process, it would be to NOT pass laws that prevent certain people from applying for a job. The employer should have absloute say into whether or not an applicant becomes an employee, or an employee gets a promotion or raise. PERIOD!

The purpose of a business is to make money. A business owner will not make decisions that prevent the application of that principal, otherwise they will be out of business. If I continually hire underachieving men rather than high performing women, then I will go out of business. Right? It would be stupid to throw money away with such idiotic business practices and if I want to, then so be it. that way, the over achieving women will start up a competitive operation and run me out of business. Then, I get what I deserve.

BTW… I’m surpised noon answered the question to my hypothetical experiment posted earlier…

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Go Auburn!

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

If someone feels moved or obligated to assist the poor, let them do so by voluntarily contributing to various charities and organizations, but not by force.

Funny, but you hit on one of the issues that makes me begin to argue for interference based on morality. This , to me, is proof that neither side of the discussion is absolute, but there is a place that this process is honing us into.

I would like to believe that as we move on this gradual slope of awakening we reach quantized states in which certain moral principles (like not letting old people die in the gutter) are obvious and agreed upon by all. Yet, unlike others, I know where my personal beliefs end and legislation begins.

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

The purpose of a business is to make money.

That’s only partly true, 2D. We still should answer to a “Higher Calling” IMO. I did lots of “business” things which actually cost me money, but doing the “right” thing often has a much greater reward.

Having said that, I appreciate that you do seem to understand the concept of “Enlightened Selfishness”, which opens the door to do things which don’t show an immediate profit. Every successful business owner I ever knew was always willing to eschew short-term profits for long-term goodwill in the community.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

The preamble of the United States Constitution states the parameters under which our government must act. It says:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Unfortunately many people have no idea what these word mean. Take the PHRASE Promote the general welfare. As used in the Constitution it means:

Promote does not mean INSURE

Welfare welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [

Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.

In other words, it is a function of government to promote an atmosphere that is conducive to these things. It is up to individual Americans to take hold of health, happiness and prosperity.

Chris, you obviously are new to this blog if you think I was PROMOTING any of those things.

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

IMO, a good moral system always contains forces which counterbalance one another. For example, the Bible urges compassion for the poor, but also says that if you don’t work, you don’t deserve to eat. Too many folks I know only take one side of the yin-yang, which is the true nature of moral reality. Because of this, we will never have a “complete” moral code in which every situation is pre-decided. It seems to me that folks like chuck would prefer such a system, but it is artificial and un-Godly, just like Communism.

By chuck

May 9, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

2D, you were correct when you said:

I don’t believe the government gives me ANY rights. The government provides nothing but protection

According to the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

In other words, our RIGHTS come from God, NOT government. It is the job of government to SECURE these rights, not to GRANT them.

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Final thought for today: In my experience, discovering our “purpose” in life is actually only half the battle. So many times, I know what the “right” thing to do is, but too often override God’s message and do the selfish thing anyway, with poor results. Why? Partly due to fear (i.e. wanting to control the outcome even though it is not my place to do so), and honestly, partly due to just plain meanness sometimes. F*** devil!

By chuck

May 9, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

To answer your hypothetical 2D, I would be against the institutionalized discrimination of affirmative action in our government, but if it did so, all businesses who depend on government contracts would adopt AA policies and those who don’t depend on government contracts would not.

By Morality vs. Laws

May 9, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Love to all.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Laws are not about protecting people’s rights. All rights are implied under our Consitution.

All I should have to say is “What consequences are there for not following the constitution and removing/omitting another’s rights?”

If I continually hire underachieving men rather than high performing women, then I will go out of business. Right? Wrong. It is called the “good old boy policy.” Maybe with the onset of globalization this would not be AS possible.

If what you said was true (self equalizing system), we would not still have these pockets of inhumane conditions like in the christian cults that practice pedophilia/incest and etc. Groups still have the ability to isolate themselves into non-homogeneous systems that further their specific way of thinking.

By Early Friday Joke

May 9, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Women’s Health Institute of New England (WHINE) “We Educate Women Because Somebody Has To Do It. It’s the Law.”

By Jack

May 9, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Oprah? Oh Archie……

By 2D

May 9, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

MVL (or whoever is posting under that name)… I agree with you that business and everyone else SHOULD answer to higher calling. Unfortunately, that statement contains two very subjective ideas: should and higher calling.

My higher calling may be different than yours (although I suspect that it is relatively the same). That ambiguity makes it impossible to legislate. Our government cannot legislate subjective ideas. Our government simply cannot prevent people from following their higher calling so long as it does infringe upon another citizen’s person or property. If I choose to hire only hispanic females between the age of 20-30 then I have not infringed upon anyone’s person or property. I may have hurt my own business, especially if I am running a heavy moving company, but I haven’t infringed upon anyone’s person or property except my own, because I would probably lose money.

If people want to go down the slippery slope of legislating morality, then it will turn into a big hullabaloo when it doesn’t need to be. The less the government is involved, the better off everyone will be.

By supplyfwfa

May 9, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

By Archie

May 9, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

First the original argument between Mara and Chuck was whether laws are morality-based. Chuck implied all laws and Mara implied all laws weren’t. I said I disagreed a little with Mara because some laws are purely morality-based. It seems the discussion went off on a tangent. I think Mara made some good points in her 12:53 points based on the original discussion. The question is are all laws morality-based? I say no but some are.

By MVL

May 9, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

MVL (or whoever is posting under that name)… I agree with you that business and everyone else SHOULD answer to higher calling. Unfortunately, that statement contains two very subjective ideas: should and higher calling.

Please reread my earlier posts, 2D. My belief is that true morality can’t be legislated; it has to come from within. While that may sound subjective on the surface, it’s not once you introduce the concept of “revelation”. While the six blind men never knew the elephant in its entirety, each did receive a revelation which was based on something objective.

By Mara

May 9, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Archie - just for the record…I don’t disagree that there can be moral aspects to a law, I just don’t believe that the sole basis for the law should be someones “morals”. It was amazingly civil today, wasn’t it?! :^) C-y’all tomorrow

By MVL

May 9, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

“And to reach the Chord is our Life’s Hope.

And to name the Chord is important to some, so they give it a Word, and the Word is OM.”

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

The question is are all laws morality-based? I say no but some are.

And more-over laws should not be morality based. The existence of a few (in comparison to the rest) does not alter the legal systems purpose.

By MVL

May 9, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

It was amazingly civil today, wasn’t it?! :^)

Thanks, Mara. See, I’m not an a***** ALL the time, despite popular opinion. Just as long as you acknowledge that I’m always right, that is. ; > }

By MVL

May 9, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

And more-over laws should not be morality based.

JokesOn, it all depends on how you define the word “moral”. If yuo define it as “right conduct”, than ALL laws are based on morality.

I think what folks here are getting confused about is that many “moral” issues don’t involve public safety, and therefore should not be part of our criminal law system.

In terms of Set Theory, “Illegal Acts” can be thought of as a proper subset of “Immoral Acts”—i.e. the Venn circle for “Illegal Acts” will be completely contained within the Venn circle for “Immoral Acts”, but not vice versa.

By MVL

May 9, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Life Lesson #2369: Don’t start drinking rum after 2AM. The hangover the next day sucks.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

If yuo define it as “right conduct”, than ALL laws are based on morality.

But if using the definition derived from the constitution (the moral stance that all people are equal…); they are all BASE on that one moral premise of rights.

Just as in any philosophical belief, you agree on a defined set of morals and the rest precipitates (dictated) from that one stance. Yeah, it can seem tricky, but all you have to do is ask if an act infringe on another’s rights. If it does, then you prohibit it by passing legislation.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

It was amazingly civil today, wasn’t it?! :^)

I agree. No one got personal and refrained from totally dismissing another’s point.

I really think that if it is so enjoyable then each of us today should call out anyone that does not adhere to this concept exhibited today - even if one feels there is an “alliance” established with that person.

By 2D

May 9, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Jokes On… How about providing some examples of isolationist groups that are actually commerce based. The discussion about Afirmative Action is related to commerce. Please don’t try to muddy the waters with examples of folks living in communes or militia camps and practicing weird religious practices. If they want to do that then let them, so long that they do not harm innocent people.

You can’t come up with a legitimate, objective reason related to person or property for Affirmative Action to exist. The stock “good ole’ boy network” reason doesn’t fly. Here’s why. That network will always be in effect. Here in Atlanta, UGA people network. In Chicago it’s Northwestern people. In some other part of the country it is a different group. You just want to make the parameters of the “good ole’ boy” network something that you agree with. That’s a subjective position that the government should noot legislating.

By JokesOn

May 9, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this

Please don’t try to muddy the waters with examples of folks living in communes or militia camps and practicing weird religious practices. If they want to do that then let them, so long that they do not harm innocent people.

The mormon TOWN where the cops/commerce/social make-up IS an example of a functioning system that is contrary to the rights of others: Others are not welcome there and will not be employed. The children, by my standards, ARE innocents being wronged.

As for an example that is less extreme. The agriculture industry using immigrant labor that get paid very little, and would get paid nada (slavery) if they were dumb enough to think the govt would not step in.

The diner that predominately caters to white bigots and will not hire blacks.

Throughout history examples of these can be found in sports (lack of blacks as managers/owners), big companies (blacks/women), your local bars…etc. All that has slowly been changing purely because of laws implemented - yet (some) businesses still do this (Walmart for example just had issues) when they can.

By supplyubih

May 9, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

By supplycvgq

May 9, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

By 2D

May 10, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

Jokes On… Nice try, but no cigar. You describe a Mormon group that you may find a bit twisted, but outside of the children, there is nothing that the government has any business getting involved with. Even with the children, our government allows for lots of “alternative” parenting methods so even in the case of your Mormon example, unless the children are being sexually molested, I’m not sure the government has any standing. But… That’s alternative groups is not the point of the conversation. Let’s stay on the topic of my point that laws should not be morality based but objectively based on protection of person and property.

Your immigrant situation does not hold water. Immigrants come here specifically for the sole purpose to do the agricultural and other jobs that Americans deem beneath them. Thank goodness someone will do them. It is their choice to come here. It is their choice to do the jobs. They don’t have to. Remember also that many of them are here illegally. Many have broken immigration laws, which represent a direct responsibility of our government, protecting our borders (a whole different topic) and risked their lives to be here. The point being they are not forced to do this work, so your slavery allusion is ludicrous. Bottom line: The agricultural jobs do not pose any threat to the person or property of the immigrant workers other than the inherent dangers of working with farm equipment, chemicals, etc. The same dangers that anyone would face.

How does the bigot owner of a diner endanger the person or property of the black man if he doesn’t hire him? Has the owner gone out and physically accosted the black man? Is a job at the diner the ONLY job left in the entire world the black man can get? Unless the answer to either of those answers is yes, then the government has no business saying one daggum thing. Because unless either of those answers are yes, the bigot owner has done NOTHING to endanger the person of property of the black man one bit. The government has no standing to legislate our thoughts and feelings. Bigots are bigots and have the right to be bigots so long as they don’t physically hurt or forcibly take property that belongs to another individual.

Quick on the other examples:

Black sports owners. No laws prohibit black men/women from owning sports team. The lack of resources to purchase the team does. As more black mena dn women advance through the business world this will undoubtedly change.

Black sports coaches. Most coaches do not have long playing careers. They end up entering the coaching field young to stay in the game and susbequently work their way up as managers/coaches. Most good players are black and subsequently get into coaching later. Sure there was a racial bias as well, but not solely. We are also seeing owners hire more black coaches now. Why is that? Not because of AA but because they are qualified and in the era of free agency attract better players to the teams.

OMT… Keep in mind that I do not agree with the practices of WalMart (I can’t stand the Walton heirs), some agricultural companies, discirmination in upper management, etc. However, I also don’t believe that government has any business legislating it. The free market will shake it out. Sure some “good ole’ boys” will toil on, but not many. Remember and trust the old saying… Follow the money. For the vast majority of businesses, if hiring minorities equals more profit, the owner will do so. If paying a higher wage to get better employees equals more profit, the owner will do so. If the owner does not make decisions to maximize their profits, they will no longer own anything.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

Chuck… While I would also prefer that the govenrment would hire/fire/promote/pay employees based soley on ability and need, I conceded that they have the right to do the aforementioned things for their positions in the way deem appropriate and to only do business with like employers.

Take for example teachers. Here in Atlanta, there is huge need for math and science teachers, however, the schools cannot pay those teachers more due to the teacher union. If the demand for those teachers are greater, then shouldn’t they make more money? If our children need top notch math and science to compete in a global economy shouldn’t we pay more to get talented math and science professionals into the schools? While layed off, I was offered a calculus teaching position at a local HS and couldn’t take it. Why? Because it would have been 1/3 of the next private sector position I found. The principal said they would have loved to pay me more but couldn’t due to the restrictions. Big problem.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

2D,

We disagree and lets leave it at that. I believe that it is governments job to protect the right to pursue happiness and make it relatively even for all people - you only deal with property rights given your responses.

Many of the large examples existed in history and I believe could re-emerge, at least in pockets. If it was the time during the civil war you would cheer for secession and I would root for the north.

By Monica

May 10, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

2D, there is no teacher union in Georgia. Salaries are mandated by the State, not unions. I know that unions exist in the North, but I don’t know if they have the ability to negotiate salary.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Monica… Thank you for the clarification. I misspoke on the entity that hamstrings a school’s ability to hire the best teachers.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

Money, money, money. That’s what it is all about. Jack pretty much has this one nailed. What’s my mantra? Say it with me…Follow the money.

Men are better at sports and women just aren’t interested. OK. Let’s pretend Shaunti’s double-standard logic is a reasonable way to determine policy. HUH? Diane is off base here. I’m not a Shaunti supporter, in general, but I never read anything in her position that boiled down to how Diane starts off. I think that Title IX Was necessary when it was written and has most definitely helped women’s sports advance faster than were the law not enacted.

Several bloggers have made some very good points about gender differences in sports which basically boil down to more boys than girls tend to be interested in sports and that women do not tend to support women’s sports as much as men’s sports. Who knows why, it just is. Think about it….if there are more women than men in schools then why aren’t women out in larger numbers supporting their sisters’ sports teams? Maybe the trick is get more men interested in women’s sports. What better place to meet women than at a woman-centered event?

At this point in time I agree that the law needs to be revisited to ensure that we are not creating a situation that is resulting in reverse discrimination against men’s sports. It seems inherently unfair to not field a men’s team simply because there are not enough women who want to play sports in order to maintain the ratio determined by the law especially given that more men are interested in playing sports than women. Aren’t there other educational areas which are more dominated by women? Based on my experiences in high school and college as both a musician and athlete the music program contained far more women than men. The only exception was the Jazz band and for whatever reason there are fewer female percussionists and brass players than male.

One oddity I noted about James Madison is that the coach mentions the men’s swim team. When I competed in swimming all of our teams were mixed gender. The individual events were split by gender, but we won or lost together as a mixed team. Even back then the swimmers used to wonder why there weren’t mixed gender relay races that would allow us to field a relay team with the fastest swimmers of each stroke regardless of gender. That would have made for some really exciting competition.

By lozen

May 10, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Isn’t it Friday yet?

By Monica

May 10, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Sorry 2D. I’m a bit testy this morning!

I agree with you on your stance except for one issue. Is the Mormon town that Jokes On references the same one that arranges marriages for the 12 and 13 year old girls? How could the government intervene and protect these girls without infringing on the religious practices of said group?

By 2D

May 10, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

JokesOn… I appreciate the civility, but I want to say that I don’t believe we disagree all that much.

Actually, I am from the North and would have absolutely volunteered to fight for the Union, more than likely under General Grant and then Sherman since I am from what was then considered “the West”. I would have gladly burned Atlanta and everything in our path to Savannah (of course the mythology of these events is far worse than the actuality) .

The South esentially fought for the ability of each State to self determine laws independent of the Federal government. In a micro sense they fought for the ability to pass laws that restrict the rights of certain persons (i.e. own slaves). I would never stand for that and neither do I stand for it now.

It makes me sick to see people fly Rebel flags over statehouse or even their personal residences. I believe that symbol represents traitors to this country. However, I also believe that if someone wants to fly that flag, they should not be stopped.

Likewise, if people choose to live in private communities, I believe they should be able to. If people choose to join private clubs, I believe they should be able to. If people choose to hire a specific group of people, I believe they should be able to. So long that all people have the legal standing to assemble in the same fashion, the government does not have any reason to interfere.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

2D,

It is good to see that in the larger scope we agree more than not.

Likewise, if people choose to live in private communities, I believe they should be able to. If people choose to join private clubs, I believe they should be able to. If people choose to hire a specific group of people, I believe they should be able to. So long that all people have the legal standing to assemble in the same fashion, the government does not have any reason to interfere.

If these pockets are directly counter to the founding principles (like the mormon town, which does sell teens/preteens into polygamy), are you still ok with their existence?

I agree that government involvement should be the last resort, yet wonder if it should stomp out them out after they emerge (reactive), or try to prevent them from existing (proactive) in the first place.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Monica/JokesOn… I think my response would be for both of you since you both asked about the marriage of preteens in a very specific Mormon society.

I’m not sure what can/should be done about that if it does on religious beliefs. We have a long standing tradition in this country of religious freedom. Since I am part of a Protestant sect of Christianity that does not do such things, I would like to know about other religious practices.

For example:

Do other religions/cultures living in the U.S. arrange marriages? I have heard about this in Indian and Muslim societies but am not sure.

If the government cannot outlaw those religions’ practices based on religious freedom, then the practices of the Mormon community would be equally protected.

What would be interesting is the situation of that pre-teen turning 18, and resisting the religious teachings. At that point, I would argue the government shall protect her right to be free sincce she is openly rejecting the religious beliefs.

However, as I’ve said many times, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I play one o TV. :)

By 2D

May 10, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

JokesOn… Specifically to your question about the pockets that are counter to the founding principals…

I am perfectly OK with their existence. Those people have chosen to live in exile or isolation. Would you bring the same argument if we were talking of a nudist colony where people would be required to live naked? Or what of various communes where people live with very specific rules in isolation? Or what of the Amish and Mennonite communities who live in isolation under very specific restrictive rules of dress, use of technolgies, etc.

You bring up the Mormon example becuase the thought of a preteen in a polygamous relationship disgusts you. It disgusts me too, but so do lots of other lifestyles. Adultery disgusts me, but I’m not going to pass a law against it. The government does not have the right to stop them if they are entered into voluntarily. People are free to live their own lives the way they see fit.

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2D,

You bring up the Mormon example becuase the thought of a preteen in a polygamous relationship disgusts you.

Although it does disgust me, my my point is more of peoples rights in those communities and whether they should be protected. Should women HAVE to “stay sweet” (their motto for being subservient)? Should the (pre)teens have to share a husband with no choice in the matter? Should the whole town be able to decide who can and cannot live/work there based on their belief?

Along the same lines is the latest headline regarding the vegan couple sentenced to life because their baby died of malnourishment. Their stance was “but we are vegans and have a right to live that way.” If there was a commune with this mentality and the infant mortality rate was 50%, are they not culpable? What I am referring to is no different - systems that are counter to the provisions made in the constitution.

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By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Keep in mind that I do not agree with the practices of WalMart (I can’t stand the Walton heirs), some agricultural companies, discirmination in upper management, etc. However, I also don’t believe that government has any business legislating it. The free market will shake it out.

Granted suits were filed by individuals, but that can only happen IF there are laws supporting their case. It did not get “shaken out” until these law suits were filed (the government had made laws making the practice illegal) , so does this not disprove your “shaken out” theory?

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May 10, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Along the same lines is the latest headline regarding the vegan couple sentenced to life because their baby died of malnourishment. Their stance was “but we are vegans and have a right to live that way.”

The only info I know about this case is what was on ajc.com on sentencing day, but I almost felt sorry for the couple. If they had intended to kill their newborn, would they have given him anything to drink at all? Is a life sentence the appropriate sentence for this couple?

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By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Hey JokesOn! Were you a fan of the Urban Shakedancers? I heard they are going to have a reunion show sometime in the next month or two. I’ll look you up at the show if you plan to go.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

Is a life sentence the appropriate sentence for this couple?

I agree, but depending on the specific terms of the sentence. I do not know enough about the legal system to be sure that “life” is not 20 years (or such) with possible parole after 5 years etc.

I do not think that prison is the proper place for people who are ignorant, but that notion will get me labeled an “empathiser” (sp?) in many cases that occur.

By chuck

May 10, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Jokeson,

What about AT&T? Many states have passed amendments that bar homosexuals from marrying? AT&T gives the same benefits to gay marriages as they do to heterosexual marriages. Now I totally disagree with this practice of AT&T, but I don’t support having the government step in and make them stop it.

Instead, I wrote a letter to the president of AT&T and expressed my displeasure and I stopped using all of their services. Since apparently they are being allowed to buy Southern Bell, I am switching my local phone service to the cable company, and again I will let them know why I am doing that.

I AM in favor of a constitutional amendment that only allows marriage between a man and a woman because I think that is best for America. What private companies do is up to them and then it up to me to decide whether or not to do business with them. As in the case with Wal-Mart, I think that the only thing they are doing is trying to maximize profits by putting the best people they have into management slots. I don’t think that they have institutionalized racism at Wal-Mart. If that ever is clearly the case, I won’t shop there any more, and I will let them know why. If enough people do that, their practices will change. It should not be dictated by government.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

Oops—back on the the topic of the day: The legal presumption regarding minors is that they don’t have the mental capacity to make an informed decision regarding sex, marriage, etc. That is the basis upon which laws such as prohibiting 12 year olds to marry. And while the parents have custody of the child, parents don’t have unlimited rights over their children.

The key concept is informed consent, just like when you go to a doctor.

By Life Is Sweet!!

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Any Genesis fans on board? I’ve been playing the crap out of the Foxtrot CD lately. I enjoy their later work, but they were transcendent when Peter Gabriel was with them.

By chuck

May 10, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Monica, apparently all they gave the baby was apple juice and soy milk. The baby died of malnutrition. I don’t think that anyone has the right, whether it is through religious belief or otherwise has the right to ABUSE children. Life sentence? I don’t know…Forced sterilization? Now that’s an idea. If they would agree to that I would be in favor of releasing them on a lifetime probation.

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Life Lesson #1—Only date women who are in their 50s. All good, and no BS!

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May 10, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Life Is Sweet!!,

Naw. I am leaving in two days for some contract work in California and will be there for a couple months. Might look at staying if it works out;)

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I AM in favor of a constitutional amendment that only allows marriage between a man and a woman because I think that is best for America.

I really find it a shame that you have to see everything through your church window.

Dare I ask HOW it would be worse (flipping the prose a bit) for America to allow gay marriage? All the studies I have seen do not agree with stance. Do not point me to a site with an agenda, but a unbiased source, and no huge cut/paste jobs please.

Your point also opens up another issue. Example: arranged marriages in other countries outlive marriage-by-choice in ours. If that added longevity is better for America, why not mandate that?

I still find your positions one of selfishness in which you want to make this country what YOU find comfortable, and not what is the most comfortable for all. That, sir, is a dictatorship.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

They have actually argued that gay marriage should be LEGALIZED or given the same LEGAL standing as Heterosexual marriage. That would require legislation to accomplish, thereby legislating “morality”, or in my opinion, legislating IMMORALITY. Would providing equal access really require legislation or is it a matter of revisions to legislation to make existing marriage laws gender neutral?

Marriage has zip, zero, nada to do with morality. With just a small amount of research into the history of marriage it becomes extremely clear that marriage has historically been an economic transaction as well as a political one between two families. This current notion of ‘one man, one woman as defined by God’ falls apart simply by reading the Bible in which God accepts polygamous marriages/relationships between one man and numerous women. The real problem today is that within the last several hundred years the idea of romantic love being the driver of marriage has become the understood foundation of marriage. This shift in understanding is probably also a driver in the increase in divorce. When one is no longer romantically in love the marriage is over and it’s time to move on to the next romantic love/marriage.

What Chuck and others with his belief can’t seem to do is divorce the idea of religious marriage from civil marriage. Civil marriage laws are about what? MONEY!! It all comes down to property rights and division of assets as well as a few other rights such as not being able to be forced to testify against a spouse in a court of law and the ability to make medical decisions when one’s spouse is unable to do so for example. It’s about the money when the amount my employer pays for my partner’s insurance is taxed as income, but for my married coworkers it is not. The really fu cked up thing is that Chuck’s reason for denying gay people equal access to civil marriage is religion, but I CAN have a religious marriage ceremony TODAY. On the other side of the coin, heterosexuals can go to a court house to be married WITHOUT a religious ceremony. If marriage is moral and ‘ordained by God’ then shouldn’t the anti-gay equal marriage rights crowd also be working to pass legislation requiring all marriages be officiated by a religious leader (ie. rabbi, priest, minister, etc)?

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

What part of California, JokesOn? Surprisingly, all of my clients who moved to California in recent years all came back to Georgia within 1 year. All claimed they hated California, referencing unfriendly people, ridiculous taxes, and a skyrocketing cost of living. I think I heard a statistic that the state is now 50% Mexican. Pretty amazing that they won Round II of the Mexican-American War without even firing a shot, huh?

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

Marriage has zip, zero, nada to do with morality.

NetB, you know I agree with you about 90% of the time, but I think your mistreatment as a gay man has led you to wrongly reject morality. Love/sex is a one-to-one activity. In my limited experience with “group” situations, it always ends badly, with many hurt feelings and sometimes permanent emotional damage as a result.

Out of curiosity, would you care to share how many lifetime partners you have had? I’m still under 100 (I think), but my gay best friend is in the 1000s. While he doesn’t regret all the “experiences”, he is a strictly monogamous man these days.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Life Lesson #2, NetB. Don’t listen to hypocrites like chuck.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

chuck, since you’re here today, would you please enlighten us some more about what The Golden Rule means to you. You, know, that pesky little concept that the Christ claimed was the essence of his beliefs….Love your brother as yourself. Tell us how your continued condemnation of those who fall short of the Glory jives with that concept?

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

I think your mistreatment as a gay man has led you to wrongly reject morality. Why do you assume that I reject morality? I have morals and believe in them. I simply don’t accept that marriage has anything to do with morality given it’s history as an economic transaction.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

I think your mistreatment as a gay man has led you to wrongly reject morality. Why do you assume that I reject morality? I have morals and believe in them. I simply don’t accept that marriage has anything to do with morality given it’s history as an economic transaction.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

My beef with you, chuck: Not once have I ever seen you state that you fall short of the Glory. Not once. So, does that mean that you have never sinned, or, more likely, that you’re a coward who likes to bully those who admit their shortcomings?

By 2D

May 10, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

JokesOn… I am totally familiar with the lawsuit against WalMart you refer to. My understanding the lawsuit was not about who received jobs, but the conditions under which the people were working. These, in my mind, are two totally different issues.

Affirmative actions (again the original argument) is about who an employer chooses to hire. Work conditions would be the domain of OSHA, with who I did a great deal of work in my life working as an engineer in manufacturing facilities. I do believe it is within the rech of government to place safety restrictions (i.e. protecting a person with safety helmets, keeping fire escapes unlocked, etc.) but not on level of pay.

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By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

NetB—Certainly marriage has a “business” side to it, which many people stupidly ignore. However, it also has a sacred quality to it, which comes straight from God. Personally, I believe homosexuals are God’s Creation, equal to heterosexuals in every way. I definitely support civil marriages for gay folk, and even support religious/commitment ceremonies. However, I do believe in maintaining two separate words to refer to gay marriages and heterosexual marriages since one union is ca0pable of producing children which sustains the human race while the other doesn’t. That qualitative difference is significant to me.

By Jack

May 10, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Chuck. I don’t recall seeing homosexuallity mentioned in the 10 commandments. Implying that Net has choosen to reject morality is absurd. He’s the sharpest tool in the shed for Chrissakes.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

In my limited experience with “group” situations, it always ends badly, with many hurt feelings and sometimes permanent emotional damage as a result.

I would mark that up to humans being quite immature more-so than an absolute which points to morality. For example, no one in those situations like you described deliberately hurts another.

I would liken it to not doing business with friends, many times it gets too muddy for us to handle and people get mad, which has nothing to do with morals.

If the rules in ANY situation are not absolutely clear and agreed upon, people will begin to analyze if they are getting treated equal but using different yardsticks.

(BTW - San Fran is my temporary destination)

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By 2D

May 10, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

JokesOn… On your mortality rate question. That is a dicey issue.

I know there are parents out there who do not vaccinate their children for a variety of reasons and that is totally allowed. If their child catches polio, TB, or any other disease which most of us have been vaccinated for, are they culpable?

If the Amish mortality rate is much worse than the rest of society are they culpable?

If parents smoke at home and cause their children to contract lung cancer are they culpable?

If nudist children get melanoma are their parents culpable (this was a farsical comment)?

I believe the vegen couple should be held accountable because I know of families who raised their children from birth on vegen diets. This child didn’t tragically die because of the vegen diet. This child tragically died because the parents were not capable of or responsible enough to properly administer a vegen diet to their child. Their fault. Not sure if jail is the best thing for them because they are not a danger to society at large. Perhaps they should simply not be able to procreate again. :)

On a bright note… The very fact that we are now talkling about the most extreme of examples shows that you are unable to formulate an argument to counter my position on the original talking point of affirmative action. It does not protect person or property and therefore the government has no business legislating it.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

BTW - San Fran is my temporary destination)

Cool, I’ll tell my (gay) sister to take care of you while you’re out there. She and her girlfriend only smoke the best. She used to send the rest of us “Christmas” packages until the damn terrorists ruined it for us all.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

2D, I am totally familiar with the lawsuit against WalMart you refer to. My understanding the lawsuit was not about who received jobs, but the conditions under which the people were working.

“A sex-discrimination lawsuit against Wal-Mart Stores that was certified as a class action Tuesday could have ramifications in an industry where Wal-Mart is viewed as a leader.

The lawsuit, the largest private civil rights case ever, could prompt some companies to analyze their own pay and promotions practices to be sure they’re not vulnerable to similar claims.

“It’s an issue in every big company in the retail industry,” says George Whalin, president of Retail Management Consultants. “We still have a lot of businesses that operate on the good-old-boy philosophy. … We can’t have this anymore. You should hire and promote people on the merits of their performance.”“

(http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2004-06-23-retailers_x.htm)

Care to amend your statement? And do you see how this is NOT a self righting system, which I agree would be nice.

By Jack

May 10, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

SanFran. They have good bread and nice cool weather. Moon rise over the Bay bridge is great. Best Chinese food too.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

JokesOn… Typo there… I meant totally NOT familiar…

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

Best literary line ever by Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain): “The coldest winter I ever spent was the summer I spent in San Francisco.” Pure genius, that guy. Gives Shakespeare a good run for the money, IMO.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

JokesOn… No, I will not ammend my statements. I believe in the free market. I also believe in George Whalin’s statement whole heartedly. Shame on WalMart for not promoting the best people. Perhaps the stock holders would have made more money or the prices for consumers would have been lower if they had. WalMart made a poor business decision by not promoting the best people. Whoever made those decisions should lose their job not on MORAL grounds of not hiring women, but on business grounds of not putting their best employees in high profile positions.

By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Life Lesson #3—When you meet a new girlfriend (or boyfriend), insist on having blood tests together to see if they have herpes or other STDs. Can’t trust people to tell you the truth anymore, unfortunately.

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By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

JokesOn—I usually follow your line of thinking, but it’s hard for me to support Affirmative Action at this juncture. Like the union laws of the early 1900s and Title IX laws, what starts out as a noble mission turns to crap right away. The problem with AA is that while the purported goal is to diminish race as a criterion for hiring people, it is in fact a race-based system in and of itself which ignores merit. For proof of what a sham it has become, look no further than the late Maynard Jackson. Despite being a multi-millionaire, he took full advantage of “AA” down at the airport to line his pockets even more. Shortly before his death, when questioned why he should continue to receive preferential treatment, he stated “You owe me because I’m black.” The effect of this “You owe me” mentality on the new generations of blacks is easy to see with 80-90% support for slavery reparations. What a crock of you-know-what.

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By Life Is Sweet!!

May 10, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Gotta run, take it easy all. Even you, chuck, you piece of shlt.

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By GOB

May 10, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

I AM in favor of a constitutional amendment that only allows marriage between a man and a woman because I think that is best for America. What private companies do is up to them and then it up to me to decide whether or not to do business with them.

Interesting that you are all for private companies doing whatever they want, but are against private individuals having those same rights.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

I do believe in maintaining two separate words to refer to gay marriages and heterosexual marriages since one union is ca0pable of producing children which sustains the human race while the other doesn’t. That qualitative difference is significant to me. So does it follow that unions between heterosexuals that can not produce children would also fall into the same category as gay marriages? For example, any time a heterosexual, post-menopausal woman is married to a heterosexual man would their relationship be called the same thing as the gay ‘marriage’ since they can not produce children to sustain the human race? I’m going to guess that you’d call it the same name as hetero marriage.

Why is it that we don’t simply follow the example of some other countries? When one wants to access the rights/responsibilities enumerated in civil law then one must go to the courthouse. When one wants a religious ceremony one goes to their house of worship. The government doesn’t recognize people as married simply by virtue of their having had a religious ceremony. Let’s do that and call the civil thing a civil union (regardless of sexual orientation of the participants) and leave marriage to mean the religious thing.

By JokesOn

May 10, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

*JokesOn—I usually follow your line of thinking, but it’s hard for me to support Affirmative Action at this juncture. *

I by no means support all of the ways that it has been implemented (or even most of the ways) - just that, to me, the involvement of government in these issues is not a clearly black/white issue.

By chuck

May 10, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Jokeson, I have debated this issue too many times to even think about. I have no desire to rehash it to that level of detail. The record of my position on the topic is clear going back 3-4 years on this blog. If you really want to see my detailed position feel free to go back and look at the posts in the archive. It is very easy to find and I almost always included links.

As for you, brucey, I have OFTEN noted that I am not perfect. I have NEVER CLAIMED to be so. I don’t know anyone who is. As the Apostle Paul said to Timothy:

I Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4 1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

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By kimberly

May 10, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Hey NetB! If you and your sweetie have a wedding (or even a reception), I would be thrilled beyond words to be in attendance to honor a union based on love. The people of Georgia who voted against your rights in ‘04 to do what THEY do every day: they SUK! And I don’t mind telling them what UN-American, narrow minded, selfish, bigoted theocrats they are.

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By chuck

May 10, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Thank you Kimberly. Coming from you, that is a great complement indeed.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

chuck—why don’t you be a man and leave kimberly alone? She doesn’t deserve the disrespect you show her. Why don’t you show us some real Christianity today and apologize to her? If you have a beef in life and want to fight someone, save it for me, will you? kimberly is an angel on Earth—you are scum.

kimberly, I’m sorry for anything disrespectful I have ever said to you on the blog. Will you accept my apology?

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

NetB—Put me on that invite list also. I would be proud to be in attendance as well. You’re a good man.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the compliment, Jack, but you’ve got to watch out for sharp tools in sheds…sometimes you can cut yourself…which I think translates into that saying that one can be too smart for their own good.

By Jack

May 10, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Now Dog. You know Chuck is too smart to meet you or anyone else on this blog. Besides, if a fight happened between Kim & Chuck, my money would be on Kim.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

Well, I better go before I get in trouble again. FMITA.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Besides, if a fight happened between Kim & Chuck, my money would be on Kim.

Me too, Jack. But when chuck starts running his mouth against her, I want to treat him to a little party, Jersey style.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

chuck—Apologize. You owe it to her.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the support, kids! I don’t think there’s any wedding going to be happening any time soon, but I’ll let you know when/if we ever do. In this case though, Follow the money would be about the wedding gifts! LOL! Shhhhh…don’t tell anyone, but the real reason gays want to marry is the gifts. hehehehehe

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Put up a yahoo email address, NetB. I’ll send you your gift right now. Seriously. I would be proud to do so.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 3:13 PM | Link to this

And I’ll tell you what, chuck. Put up an email address and I’ll send you a gift as well. You don’t even have to apologize to kim.

By 2D

May 10, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

GOB… Great retort to Chuck. I can’t stand when folks like him spew utter hate and hypocrisy. He is just his liberal enemies in attempting legislate the morality that he finds to be acceptable.

I personally am a very conservative person and absolutely believe our country would be better off with a more conservative mindset, but I would NEVER want to legislate those ideals and force everyone to follow them. I prefer to influence others through the way I live and do my best to not speak from both sides of my mouth. Of course that happens (I’m human) but when it does it makes me reevaluate that position. When Chuck and his brethren follow that credo (actions speak louder than words) then we will all be better off. Hate will not spewed and the good deeds will be magnified.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Jack, Monica, 2D, Mara—Same offer. Put up an email address, and I’ll send you all gift certificates. Seriously. I’ve won a ton of money at the poker table the past two weeks, and would love to share it with you good folks.

By NetBanker

May 10, 2007 3:37 PM | Link to this

But Bruce, I can’t smoke an email! In that vein, I read Tyler Perry’s new book “Don’t Make a Black Woman Take Off Her Earing” last weekend while sitting on the beach and it took me a moment to pick up the reference to “Glaucoma Medicine.” The book had me laughing out loud both on my flight and on the beach so I recommend it for as good ‘lite’ read.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

I was going to send you an Amazon certificate, Net. I’ll save some of this “bubblegum” I got for the reception!

Sorry to be obnoxious today, just feeling my oats. A beautiful lady came into my life recently, and I’m stoked. 52 y.o., but looks like 32. An absolute angel. You all know who my first choice was/is, but you can’t win them all!

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By chuck

May 10, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

First, I don’t owe Kimberly an apology. She gives out much worse than she gets back…except from you. Kimberly and I disagree on , well, just about everything, but I repect her enough to not PATRONIZE HER, you idiot.

Second, 2D, there has NEVER been anything that I have written that could be considered hypocritical. My positions on issues have been consistent since day one, both in my life AND on this blog. There have been times when I have been a little over the top in SARCASM, which isn’t particularly Christ-like and in those times I have tried to make things right with the people involved. When it comes to Bruce Myers, however, I’m waiting until he stops being a caricature of himself. Though I do not wish him any harm, he makes it difficult to wish him well.

As for “spewing hatred”, I would really like you to show me when I have done that. While as stated above, I have been overly sarcastic at times, I have NEVER spewed HATRED. The problem with liberals is that they often cannot tell the difference between an honest disagreement over issues, and hatred.

This is the way it works, so you know. If you AGREE with liberals on MOST issues, they may let you get by with a minor disagreement over something inconsequential. IF ON THE OTHER HAND, you DISAGREE WITH LIBERALS, you are a HATEFUL attacker. I could give you a recap of the times I have been attacked on this blog, including times I have been wished a horrible lingering death by these so-called loving liberals. You will not find even ONE instance when I have done that. Feel free to look back through the archives. Saying that I think gay marriage is not good for America IS NOT AN ATTACK, nor is it spewing HATRED. I have stated incessantly that I can differentiate between an ACT and a PERSON. In otherwords, while I do hate HOMOSEXUALITY, I do NOT hate homosexuals.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

Anyone going to see Roger Waters on May 22? I snagged a couple of seats just 10 rows from the stage. I like David Gilmour a lot more than Roger, but hopefully he will play a lot of Pink Floyd songs and not too much of his Radio K.A.O.S crap.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Just like I thought, chuck, you’re not man enough to apologize. So go f*** yourself, will you? You’re a f*** piece of shlt, hear?

By chuck

May 10, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

Have a great evening folks. See ya on the flip side.

OR, as I just watched Gone with the Wind

I’s the one that says quittin time at Tara.

Quittin TIIIIME!!!

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

And for the record, kimberly is 100 times the Christian you are, chuck. And a lot smarter.

By Bruce M

May 10, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

And don’t worry about a “lingering death” from me. I’ll make it quick for you. Ready to party?

By 2D

May 10, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Chuck.. Hypocrisy is not flip-flopping on issues. You have been consistent on your position points. Hypocrisy is when you are for allowing business free reign to operate their corporate lives yet are unwilling to allow individuals free reign to operate their private lives.

If the government should stay out of our lives and be in the business of protecting person and property, then let it be so. Gay people should be able to marry and big business should be able to hire and fire at will. Neither should be regulated by the government. The church on the other hand is a different issue.

You see, I think legal marriage and religious marriage are melded together because the ceremony conduucted by the pastor/rabbi/etc. carries both the religious and the legal weight. While I would leave my church if it condoned and conducted a gay marriage, I openly voted against the ammendment that would have prohibited gay marriage to the State Consitution in 2004. I see the two completely separate and mutually exclusive. I am however glad that my pastor also carried legal weight because it would have been a pain to conduct both ceremonies.

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Anyone going to see Roger Waters on May 22?

I actually have plans to fly back just for that show….see you there.

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By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

Top o’ the morning to you all! Race season starts tomorrow at 8 AM with a 5K race at Tucker H.S. C’mon out and see if you can keep up with the Mongrel.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this

Though I do not wish him any harm, he makes it difficult to wish him well.

Don’t worry about well wishes for me, chuck. In case you haven’t figure it out yet, I didn’t come to the blog to make friends or win approval, or even to discuss the “issues”. I came here to be an a*****, to vent anger that I couldn’t vent out in the world.

And even if I were here to win friends, we wouldn’t be friends, trust me. I hang with the lepers, chuck—the junkies and the freaks. We don’t like stale white bread like you.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

Dog,

Not much time to chat today, but this has been an on-going debate with some friends: If a person who generally does not make the healthiest decisions as a personality trait (not a killer or anything that harsh - think more of the slacker musician type) decides to make better ones. Is he/she always that same slacker, but just making better decisions; or are they truly a better person in general?

I tend to think of the question in AA terms. “Are they always in recovery?”

What say you?

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

We don’t like stale white bread like you.

I would liken him more to wonder-bread; putty and not really bread. Stale bread is better and has character;)

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this

But since you offered your personal opinion about who you think I am, I’m going to give you mine in return about you.

You’re not a true Christian, chuck, pure and simple. Your line about “hating the sin and not the sinner” is pure crap. Hate is hate, period. I would give you some brownie points for trying to be a Christian, but, in the end, you’re just not a good representative of the Christ. But you know what, neither am I. I have met a few true Christians in my day, but none of them wasted much time trying to wrap Holy Robes around themselves the way that you do. The fact that you could only come up with one sin to confess—sarcasm—speaks volumes about you, BTW.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Hey, JokesOn—you’re here early, buddy. What section will you be sitting in at the Roger Waters show? We’ll be over in section 101, row K. Look for a chick with long brown hair down to her waist who’s making a lot of noise. That’s Myra, my long-term squeeze (18 years off and on).

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Not much time to chat today, but this has been an on-going debate with some friends: If a person who generally does not make the healthiest decisions as a personality trait (not a killer or anything that harsh - think more of the slacker musician type) decides to make better ones. Is he/she always that same slacker, but just making better decisions; or are they truly a better person in general?

I tend to think of the question in AA terms. “Are they always in recovery?”

You got me there, JokesOn. Interesting, though, because that very same question has intrigued me throughout my life. Let me think for a minute and see if I can come up with anything. It is early, you know ; > }.

By 2D

May 11, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

Yo Wiz… The fact that Chuck has only admitted to one sin is an implied admission to another… PRIDE.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

While I’m thinking, was wondering if you were tied in with any of the North Georgia Boogie people, JokesOn. My new lady friend is knee-deep with that crowd. She’s also a Wiccan and is going to take me to some kind of Wiccan ceremony this weekend. “Beltane”, or something like that. She says it is a fertility ritual, but it sounds more to me like an excuse for everyone to get naked. Cool either way.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Hey Jokeson…BITE ME!!

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Not sure which one, female friend has extra and invited me(similar to yours - on/off for 10+ years).

Look for the 6’1 redhead with hair to mid back and slim with curves. Not too loud tho - in most situations;)

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Here’s my best early morning answer to your question, JokesOn.

I believe that we ALL have demons inside of us. Every one of us. How we decide to live with our demons determines whether someone becomes a junkie—or a “Christian”.

To me, “recovery” simply means dealing with your demons. As such, I guess that we’re all in recovery, all the time. SOme people are more open about it, and draw attention to themselves as a result, and often end up being labeled. But the process of dealing with our demons is common to all of us.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

Been to a number of solstice clothing optional quarry parties. Not the crass event most would imagine, but seeing 17yo and 55yo people all naked is more refreshing than I would have originally imagined. No wiccan events though, just hippy stuff really.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

Hey 2D!! You sure you won’t let me treat you to an Amazon certificate? I’ve greatly enjoyed your input to the blog and would enjoy doing something nice in return. I’ve made hollow promises to leave before, but today is the day. Count on it.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Look for the 6’1 redhead with hair to mid back and slim with curves. Not too loud tho - in most situations;)

Coool!! Love those tall ones. Myra is my “party girl”. Do you want to hear how cool the new one is? She insisted that I take Myra to the concert instead of her. Wow! I’m sticking with the 50+ year olds from now on.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

Alright, chuckie’s here!! Get your last shots in chuck. Today is the day.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

Last shout to kimberly: You made the right decision to stay away from me. The truth is, I’m a no-good, cattin’ around liar. Your intuition was right. I would have been f*** around on you in no time flat.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Dog,

Thats the conclusion I keep coming to as well, but it seems a few people DO become one with those decisions which causes me to argue that position.

Alright, chuckie’s here!! Get your last shots in chuck. Today is the day.

As in rabies shots cause he is gonna get bit good? (Had to make the funny on that one)

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

No wiccan events though, just hippy stuff really.

Yeah, the good old days. Funniest acid party I ever went to was as a teen in an abandoned quarry up in NJ. For whatever reason, everyone started spontaneously doing that Scope commercial bit about walking around muttering “Good Morning” under your breath. I don’t think I ever laughed that hard ever since.

Take care, buddy. Hope to see you at the show.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

I’ll check back this afternoon to see if chuckie came up with anything. Given his history of trying to get the Bible to do his talking for him, I’m not expecting much.

By Jack

May 11, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

A little Friday humour:

A Mexican, an Iraqi, and a redneck girl are in the same bar. When the Mexican finishes his beer, he throws his glass in the air, pulls out his pistol, and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, “In Mexico our glasses are so cheap we don’t need to drink with the Same one twice.”

The Iraqi, obviously impressed by this, drinks his beer, throws into the air, pulls out his AK-47, and shoots the glass to pieces. He says, “In Iraq we have so much sand to make glasses that we don’t need to drink with the same one twice either.”

The redneck girl, cool as a cucumber, picks up her beer, downs it in one gulp, throws the glass into the air, whips out her .45, and shoots the Mexican and the Iraqi. Catching her glass, setting it on the bar,and calling for a refill, she says, “In America we have so many illegal aliens that we don’t have to drink with the same ones twice.”

By chuck

May 11, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

2D as usual you are full of hot air. If anybody has shown an attitude of pride on this blog it has been you.

hypocrisy

noun 1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

Again, there is no hypocrisy in my statements here.

As for “confessing sins”, you show a remarkable obtuseness. I don’t recall offering to confess my sins here. My sins are between me and my Savior. I believe what we were talking about was hypocrisy on the blog, which I have answered. As for the perceived discrepancy between my views on personal freedoms and business freedoms there is an easy answer. Businesses don’t answer to God, PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENTS DO. Christians are COMMANDED to oppose SIN. PERIOD. Businesses cannot commit sins. The people who own and run them can. It is not in my opinion, a sin to refuse to hire someone with whose LIFESTYLE you disagree and find to be repulsive and sinful. I would not do business with a company that would refuse to hire minorities or women, but again, I would defend their right to do that because the market will work to change the practice or they will go out of business. If they prosper in spite of those practices, OH WELL. It won’t be on my dollar.

Bottom line? Businesses answer to the public. Governments and people answer to God.

By kimberly

May 11, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Worlds Shortest Fairytale

Once upon a time, a guy asked a girl, “Will you marry me?” The girl said “No” and she lived happily ever after and went shopping, drank Martinis with friends, always had a clean house, never had to cook, had a closet full of shoes and handbags, stayed skinny, and was never farted on.

The End

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

noun 1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction 2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

Sounds like an accurate description of chuck to me. Anyone concur?

By 2D

May 11, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Chuck… If I am always full of hot air, how is it that you agreed with many of my statements earlier this week?

By Jack

May 11, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

LMAO at that one Kim. :)

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Christians are COMMANDED to oppose SIN. PERIOD.

Is that the best you can come up with , chuck?

Reread your Bible, bro.

Mark 12:28-34 says this: One of the teachers of the Law came and heard them debating. One of the teachers asked Jesus, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important one?” Jesus answered “Hear O Israel the Lord, our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There are no commandments greater than these.”

I don’t see anything about “hating sin” here, chuck.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

hot air –noun Informal. empty, exaggerated, or pretentious talk or writing

You can sometimes make valid points 2D, but you are still a pretentious, self-absorbed little miscreant. I wonder if you actually have any TRUE convictions or beliefs.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

And Luke 6:27-36:

But I tell you, hear me, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn to him the other. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great and you will be sons of the most high because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful.

Now when you can live up to all of that, I’ll recognize you as a Christian.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

LMAO at that one Kim. :)

Isn’t she the greatest, Jack? Excepting your wife, of course.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

You can sometimes make valid points 2D, but you are still a pretentious, self-absorbed little miscreant. I wonder if you actually have any TRUE convictions or beliefs.

Seems you say you do not hate the sinner, but yet call them names. Sounds hypocritical to me as well as non-christian. And your wondering “if you actually have any TRUE convictions or beliefs” should be covered by the statement: Only god knows the heart of men, which tells me you strive to be god and judge - not follow god and be humble.

What a pompous a$$.

By The Wizard

May 11, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Love to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Monica

May 11, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Hi Kimberly! I liked your fairy tale!

Have a good day all.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

That’s because you don’t know ANYTHING Bruce…especially about the Bible. The Bible is not a collection of single edicts. It can only be studied in its entirety. Not that I expect you to understand this Bruce, but your laughable example is part and parcel of your participation on this blog…full of sound and fury, signifying NOTHING.

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By NetBanker

May 11, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Businesses don’t answer to God, PEOPLE AND GOVERNMENTS DO Governments answer to God? Where does it say that? And what is a government made of, but PEOPLE? What is a business made of….PEOPLE? What is the difference?

It’s that line of reasoning (businesses don’t answer to God) that has allowed the ethical messes we’ve seen and the poor treatment of employees. People in business will act in ways that they never would personally by using the excuse of “it’s business.” If people have to answer to God at the end of their lives do you really think God will give them a pass on bad behaviors at work or in the name of business? If one has to answer for their actions then it’s has to be all or none otherwise God will have to condemn some people to hell, but not others for doing the exact same thing with the only distinction being the ‘saved’ one behaved badly in the name of business.

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By 2D

May 11, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

NetB… Beautiful response.

By Scalia

May 11, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Great response, NetB.

By NetBanker

May 11, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Your line about “hating the sin and not the sinner” is pure crap. Hate is hate, period. I’ve just never really understood this concept. I get it that you can hate what someone did without hating the person, but when what one does is driven by an inherent part of who the person is then the line between ‘sin/sinner’ breaks down. I can hate that someone stole from me and realize that person isn’t inherently a thief because anyone is capable of stealing. I can hate that someone is an addict/alcoholic, but knowing there is some proof of a genetic cause for addiction the ‘sin’ becomes an inherent part of that person. In this case or similar ones how does hating their addiction not become hating them? It’s same thing with homosexuality. I wasn’t recruited, molested, exposed to gay people…shoot I never even met a gay person (that I know of) until I was 17 years old and that person was an adult co-worker of my girlfriend’s mother so I never even talked about being gay with him even though I knew at that point I was…it just is who I am no matter how much I wanted to deny it or prayed to God to ‘lift this burden’ from me.

How does one hate an inherent trait over which another has no control without hating that other person? Let me turn this around to state as the person who is not being hated for who I am, but what I do (which is part of who I am) the impact on me of your hate of my ‘sin’ is the exactly the same as if you hated me. Let’s take access to marriage for gay people as the example. My understanding of Chuck’s position is that because he disagrees with the behavior of homosexuality and believes it is morally wrong that we should not allow gay people to marry. At the same time Chuck states he doesn’t hate gay people, but the net effect on gay people of his hate of the behavior is the same as if he be blatantly stated that the reason he opposes gay marriage is because he hates gay people. Either way we’re denied rights because of hate.

One statement is simply more honest than the other. IMO ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ is a “bless my heart” pass to get out of hell for hate. It’s a loophole that allows professed Christians to act un-Christ-like while saying that they’re living up to the standard of Christ. The actions taken in the name of hating my sin while loving me don’t hurt me any less or make one iota of difference to me since the impact to me is the same. Ergo…there is no distinction between someon hating the sin and hating the sinner when one is in the position of being the sinner.

By NetBanker

May 11, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

The Bible is not a collection of single edicts. It can only be studied in its entirety. So then how do you reconcile Leviticus with the New Testament and your continued hatred of the sin of homosexuality when it’s never mentioned in the New Testament? If the Old Testament was the old covenant with God and the New Testament is the new covenant with God through Jesus, then why would you continue to hold on to a ‘sin’ that was not a concern of Jesus?

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By kimberly

May 11, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Hey NetB! In my humble opinion, it’s only a sin if you pretend to love someone you don’t love (like the fundies want you to do) when you can’t really love them, and deny yourself happiness, and make the other person miserable in the process, so they wonder every day what’s wrong with them and why you don’t love them. The hatred of the fundies (yes, it IS hate, Chuckie) causes lots of otherwise good people to do this horrible thing in order to be “accepted” or to not “burn in heck.” These fundies cause more pain than anyone. Be who you are, Honey, and forget the fundies. Shake ‘em off, and have a great weekend!!

By 2D

May 11, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

NetB… Another great response, however, I don’t believe I can totally agree. I could use all sorts of examples but I’m using the one you based your response around.

I absolutely believe one can see homosexuality as a “sin” or “immoral” and also love the person that lives a gay lifestyle. I have gay friends. I eat dinner with them. I see movies with them. I even invited them to the baptism of my children. I however, don’t condone their lifestyle and if they asked (although they don’t have to) I wouldn’t hesitate from telling them that. But at the end of the evening I would still give them a big hug, a piece of cake to take home and make plans with them for another evening. Why? Because I love the entire person and what they contribute to me, my family and the world and that is much bigger than them being gay.

Also… I guess I also don’t tie a large stake of my fulfillment in life to a sexual relationship. God made you gay and made me strait. I don’t believe I need to have a heterosexual relationship to fulfill God’s calling in my life nor do I believe you need to engage in a homosexual relationship to fulfill God’s calling for your life. I think we are so much bigger than our sexuality.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

If people have to answer to God at the end of their lives do you really think God will give them a pass on bad behaviors at work or in the name of business?

That is not what I said at all NetB. If you read closely, what I said was that BUSINESSES do not answer to God the PEOPLE WHO OWN AND MANAGE THEM DO.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

I have gay friends. I eat dinner with them. I see movies with them. I even invited them to the baptism of my children. I however, don’t condone their lifestyle and if they asked (although they don’t have to) I wouldn’t hesitate from telling them that. But at the end of the evening I would still give them a big hug, a piece of cake to take home and make plans with them for another evening. Why? Because I love the entire person and what they contribute to me, my family and the world and that is much bigger than them being gay.

Given we are all sinners, why would a person (and you do by your statement) concern yourself with one sin (homosexuality) versus another? And seeing as it is not even in the ten commandments seems to prove that if it is considered negative, it is not a sin and definitely not of the caliber of what we all do, lie.

That in itself is a paradox and defies the “only god knows another’s heart” lesson.

By Jack

May 11, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

On a roll Chuck. You rip Net and then 2D. Both are much higher than thou on the food chain. You act as if God condemns all sinners to Hell. If that is really the case then there aren’t that many souls in Heaven. You cast the 1st stone but you are not as pure as the driven snow.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

So then how do you reconcile Leviticus with the New Testament and your continued hatred of the sin of homosexuality when it’s never mentioned in the New Testament?

This is one of the problems that I am talking about in “cherry picking” what parts of the Bible that you want to believe and those that that you don’t. The Bible HAS to be studied as a whole, not the pieces parts.

I have heard this argument by many of the gay people on this blog and others and it is fallacious. Who told you that the sin of homosexuality is not addressed by the New Testament? It most assuredly is. Just as it is said to be an abomination in the OT, The NT has many references to this sin INCLUDING calling it an abomination.

Some people claim that homosexual behavior was only condemned in the Bible because it was associated with idolatry (e.g. 1 Kings 14:24). However, it is clearly condemned apart from idolatry as well (e.g. Leviticus 18:22). It is described in Scripture as an unnatural, immoral perversion.

‘For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another…’ (Romans 1:26-27).

The Greek word arsenokoitai used in 1 Timothy 1:10 literally means ‘men who sleep with men’. It is the same Greek word used for ‘homosexual offender’ in 1 Corinthians 6:9, variously translated as ‘abusers of themselves with mankind’ (KJV), homosexuals (NASB) or homosexual offender (NIV).

Some people claim that the sin involved in Sodom was rejecting hospitality customs or selfishness rather than homosexual behaviour. Certainly, the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah was great and their reported sin was grievous to God (Genesis 18:20). God sent angels to Sodom and…

‘Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have sex with them’ (Genesis 19:4-5).

“While it is true that the Hebrew word yadha does not necessarily mean ‘to have sex with,’ nonetheless in the context of Sodom and Gommorah, it clearly had this meaning. …It means ‘to know sexually’ in this very chapter when Lot refers to his two daughters not having ‘known’ a man (19:8).” 9 You would not offer virgins to appease a mob if their sin was lack of hospitality, but only if their desire was sexual.

Although Ezekiel 16:49 condemns Sodom for its selfishness with regard to poverty etc., this does not contradict its condemnation for homosexual practices. “The very next verse of Ezekiel (v. 50) calls their sin an “abomination”. This is the same Hebrew word used to describe homosexual sins in Leviticus 18:22.”10

It is also used in Scripture to describe such things like the practice of offering children to Moloch, but never such things as mere selfishness or lack of hospitality. Even in legal parlance, the word used to refer to one aspect of homosexual practice is ‘sodomy’.

Another argument is that Jonathon and David were homosexuals as ‘Jonathan loved David (1 Sam. 18:3), that Jonathan stripped in David’s presence (18:4), [and] that they kissed each other (20:41)’.11

However, ‘David’s love for Jonathan was not sexual (erotic) but a friendship (philic) love. And Jonathan did not strip himself of all his clothes, but only of his armor and royal robe (1 Sam. 18:4).’12 Also, a kiss was a normal greeting in that day, such as when Judas kissed Jesus. In several cultures today, men normally greet each other with a kiss, too. Further, David’s love for his wives, especially Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), clearly reveals his heterosexual orientation.

Isaiah 56:3 states that eunuchs will not be excluded from God’s presence (‘my temple’), but practising homosexuals are not eunuchs. Eunuchs have no sexual relations at all.

Other scriptural arguments for homosexuality can similarly be easily refuted. It is clear that heterosexual marriage is the only form of marriage sanctioned in the Bible and that homosexual practice is always condemned.

Punishment The Bible not only describes homosexual behavior as detestable, but it also calls for the punishment of those involved (Leviticus 20:13). Their unrepentant attitude caused God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24-25).

Just as homosexual conduct has been punished in the past, so it will also be punished by God in the future.

“…Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Hope However, there is hope for the homosexual. God forgives and cleanses a person who repents and turns from their sin, including the sin of homosexual behavior (1 Corinthians 6:11). As well as forgiveness, God’s grace brings with it the power to live a life that is pleasing to God (Romans 6:6-7). If repentance and reform are genuine, prior homosexual actions should not be a bar to church membership or ministry, as all Christians are reformed sinners.

‘Liberal’ churches espouse tolerance of homosexual behavior in the name of ‘love’. They plug for the acceptance of homosexual conduct as normal, ‘because they can’t help it’. They are not only wrong about the latter, but they are actually not being at all loving towards homosexuals, because, contrary to the Bible, they reduce the homosexual person to the level of an animal, driven by instinct. In removing moral responsibility from the person, they dehumanize them, whereas the Bible says we are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), with the power of moral choice.

Furthermore, the gospel proclaims liberation from the bondage of sin, including homosexual sin, whereas the ‘liberals’ tell the homosexual that they cannot help it, and they can’t help them either, so they will accept them as they are! However, many a person has been gloriously rescued from the bondage of homosexual sin (and other sin) by the power of the Holy Spirit, but only Bible-believing Christians can offer such hope.13

Conclusion As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules. However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.

By GOB

May 11, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

2D - You say that you dont condone a homosexual lifestyle, but in the next paragraph you say that god made someone gay. How do you reconcile your disapproval of the lifestyle, while at the same time acknowledging that it is how god made them? Did god make a mistake? Is he punishing gay people by making them feel attraction to those whom he forbids them to have a relationship with?

Seems like an odd dichotomy to me.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

Jack, you are alright in my book, but let’s face it, either you don’t read the posts or you don’t understand them. 2D is generally a lightweight. She likes to use pretentious verbiage, but when it comes down to it, she rarely moves the discussion forward and often degenerates to personal attacks.

NetB is smart and successful and I have no beef with him. He either intentionally or unintentionally misread my post. I just corrected what he wrote. I certainly did not “rip” him.

When was the last time you actually said anything other than to criticize other people on the blog? Do you EVER contribute an actual IDEA?

By GOB

May 11, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

The Bible HAS to be studied as a whole, not the pieces parts.

Even when the reality is that the bible is a collection of piece parts? These were all individually written books or letters that were put together several hundred years after they were written. There are so many contradictions in the bible, along with things that were added by scribes over the years (i.e. cast the first stone story…this doesnt show up in any copy of bible before the middle ages) that it seems like a reach to say that it can all be reconciled in a true way.

How can they possibly be anything other than pieces?

By Jack

May 11, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

God made fleas. I don’t condone fleas but I know God made them. Did he make a mistake? Who knows, something must eat fleas.

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By NetBanker

May 11, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

BUSINESSES do not answer to God the PEOPLE WHO OWN AND MANAGE THEM DO. But Chuck…a business IS the people who own and manage them so what is the difference? A Business doesn’t make decisions, take actions, or anything else. A business is like a car. It can exist, but without an operator it’s just a dead, lifeless, inert thing. Besides, you did say that Governments answer to God and there is no material difference between a government and a business because neither exists without the people who run them.

2D…I agree that I am much more than my sexuality. It is only a small part of who I am yet that tiny part is a cause for some people to deny me rights and treat me differently even when I don’t make it an issue. It is a part that has caused people to abandon relationships with gay people that were formed on a completely non-sexual basis and never would have been a sexual relationship.

Being gay isn’t about the sex. Ultimately it is about the gender of the life partner with whom we bond that is no different than the emotional bond between heterosexual life partners. Fundies just lump it all together. If having same gender sex is the sin and the sin is the reason to deny access to the law, then gay couples who do not have sex should be allowed access to the law because they aren’t sinning. Do you really think that’s going to happen? Of course it won’t because it’s about needing a group to oppress in order to feel better about oneself.

By 2D

May 11, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

JokesOn…

The reason for the post is to show that while one may disagree with an action or lifestyle, one can still love, accept and include that person in their lives.

Actually, I do not concern myself with one sin over another. You indicate that I do that by my own admission. I’m not sure where you got that admission. If you had read the entire post, I indicated that I could make the same corrolation for other examples. I simply used that particular one for brevity and to tie directly to the previous post. If I did write something that made you think that, I apologize, and want to set the record straight.

I have several friends who have committed adultery, stolen, purjured themselves, been addicted to drugs/alcohol, etc. I don’t have a friend that has killed anyone, at least not to my knowledge. I’m sure I missed some in the list, but the point is that I do not do what you say I admitted to doing.

I would only not have someone as part of my life if we simply didn’t have any common interests or I thought they posed a physical danger to my family. Other than that, I welcome all races, ages, religions and sexual orientations into my home and life. In fact, I would say I welcome this even more now that their are little feet running throught he house. It gives them an opportunity to experience all different sorts of people.

By JokesOn

May 11, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

Those are all from OT or refer to OT.

Plus, you state that your study the bible deeply, yet still are ignorant to the ACTUAL practice that was the norm during that time: A grown man would have young boys as sex partners on the side.

That is not even the WHOLE story either. These were in large part teacher/student relationships in which sexuality was a criteria. They saw it as how to teach one to be a man and not solely for sexual satisfaction.

You nothing about your own faith and where it comes from. What you have learn from it is how to parrot statements that cover your actual actions (like hate the sin, love the sinner).

There are a lot of learned christain preachers that know this, but yet you do not seek them out since they do not further your way of thinking.

By chuck

May 11, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

The difference between businesses and government NetB is that the Bible says specifically that governments are ordained by God and answerable for their actions. I have looked extensively for a similar edict toward BUSINESSES, and have found none, only toward business owners.

By Jack

May 11, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Chuck. I don’t have the luxury to spend a lot of time such as you for my posts. I would love to be able to blog continuously but I only have time to make a smart-a*******ed comment or 2. Your opinion is just as valid as mine and I have no problem with you. Your morals are fine I just p!sses me off when you get that holier than thou attitude and direct it toward others on the blog. It really got my goat when you posted Dog’s name & address on a public forum such as this. Would God like it if someone got his address, that you provided, off the blog and did him harm. YOU would be responsible.

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I see that now. Thanks for pointing out my error.

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