Woman to Woman

By Jerry Huling

April 29, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

Feldhan wrote: “…if the Republican Congress hadn’t let the federal assault weapons ban expire two years ago,Cho would not have been able to buy the high capacity ammunition clips that allowed such carnage.” The following points are instructive:

Feldham compares the U.S. firearm death of 14.2/100k (actually it’s 19.4 including suicides) with a U.K. rate of 0.41, but neglects Russia, where firearms are banned, with a rate of 71.8. Comparison between countries, based solely on gun ownership, is a deeply flawed methodology. Just within the U.S., the jurisdictions with lax gun laws have much less crime than cities and states with more Draconian gun restrictions.

There are things that Feldhan doesn’t know but more pitiful are the things she knows that are simply wrong.

By Napoleon Green Jr

April 29, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

Ladies we are talking strict gun control today. When trouble shows it’s face we tend to make things that are simple very complicated. I have all the answers to this modern problem. Let’s sit down and discuss this issue over a recipe for a Corn and Chicken soup. Maybe this will help soothe the bruises suffered by our lady Carol Moseley Braun. What if she had been carrying a gun today?

Step 1 Grind the chicken in a food processor. Take care not to over process. Transfer the chicken to a bowl and stir in the soy sauce, rice wine, cornstarch, water, sesame oil and seasoning. Cover and leave for about 15 minutes to absorb the flavors. Step 2 Heat a wok over medium heat. Add the peanut oil and swirl it around. Add the ginger and stir-fry for a few seconds. Add the stock, creamed corn and corn kernels. Bring to just below boiling point. Step 3 Spoon about 6 tbsp of the hot liquid into the chicken mixture and stir until it forms a smooth paste. Return this to the wok. Slowly bring to a boil, stirring constantly, and then simmer for 2-3 minutes until the chicken is cooked. Step 4 Pour the beaten eggs into the soup in a slow steady steam, using a fork or chopsticks to stir the top of the soup in a figure-eight pattern. The egg should set in lacy shreds. Serve immediately with the scallions sprinkled over.

INGREDIENTS

1 chicken breast fillet, about 4oz, cube 2 tsp light soy sauce 1 tbsp Chinese rice wine 1 tsp cornstarch 4 tbsp cold water 1 tsp sesame oil 2 tbsp peanut oil 1 tsp fresh ginger root, finely grated 4 cups chicken stock, or bouillon cube and water 15 oz can cream-style corn 8 oz can corn kernels 2 eggs, beaten 2-3 scallions, green parts only, cut into tiny rounds

Salt and ground black pepper to taste.

Sincerely

Napoleon Green Jr.

By the stopper

April 30, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this

So far we’ve heard from the gun-nut hair-splitter with canned NRA talking points, the emasculated misogynist, and the misogynist’s rat-terrier.

Any other online stereotypes wanna check in?

By chuck

April 30, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

According to 2004 data from the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey, the United States accounts for 9.42 gun deaths for every 100,000 people. In England — which allows no firearms — the rate is a minuscule 0.30. And in Australia, which has banned only major assault weapons (in the wake of a similar tragedy), the rate is 1.71.

The data itself is contradictory. Australia’s rates before and after gun control laws was pretty much unchanged down just 9 hundredths of a percent. Not statistically significant. On the other hand, look what happened to Australia’s OTHER violent crimes:

The problem began with the Port Arthur (a Tasmanian resort) tragedy on April 28, 1996, when a crazed assailant opened fire and shot 35 people. Australians were shocked and the government reacted quickly. Draconian gun legislation was passed in the heat of the moment. There are three major political parties in Australia: the center right (Liberal Party), the socialist camp (Labor Party), and the ultra left (Australian Democratic Party) —- which tilted the balance of power toward stringent gun control at the expense of freedom.

As a result of the ban, all semiautomatic firearms (rifles and handguns) are proscribed, including .22 caliber rabbit guns and duck-hunting Remington shotguns.

Writing in The Gun Owners (Jan. 31, 2000), the newsletter for Gun Owners of America (GOA), former California State Senator H.L. Richardson writes: “They outlawed every semi-auto, even those pretty duck guns, the Browning A5 and the Remington 1100s. They even struck down pump shotguns: the Winchester model 12 and the Remington 870…Do you own a Browning BAR rifle? Banned. How about a Winchester Model 100? Out of luck, all semi-auto hunting rifles were outlawed as well. They didn’t miss a one.”

Be that as it may, at a cost of $500 million, out of an estimated 7 million firearms (of which 2.8 million were prohibited), only 640,000 guns were surrendered to police. What has been the result? Same as in England. Like in Great Britain, crime Down Under has escalated. Twelve months after the law was implemented in 1997, there has been a 44 percent increase in armed robberies; an 8.6 percent increase in aggravated assaults; and, a 3.2 percent increase in homicides. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent.

Two years after the ban, there have been further increases in crime: armed robberies by 73 percent; unarmed robberies by 28 percent; kidnappings by 38 percent; assaults by 17 percent; manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

And consider the fact that over the previous 25-year period, Australia had shown a steady decrease both in homicide with firearms and armed robbery —- until the ban.

By Renee

April 30, 2007 8:42 AM | Link to this

Gun control would have stopped this? Last time I checked PEOPLE kill people, not GUNS! I hate when the gun control people get on the bandwagon in a situation like this, averting responsibility from the one who committed the crimes and putting it on the GUNS!! GRRRRR!

By Archie

April 30, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

My answer to the topic question is I don’t know. Both ladies are correct because Cho was just plain mean and the professors knew it to the point that they called the police but the laws did not allow for too much to be done so yes we need to deal mental illness. I don’t think banning automatic weapons infringes on the 2nd amendment because you can not hunt with an automatic weapon and you can defend yourself without an automatic weapon but we need to tighten up gun laws.

By lovelyliz

April 30, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this

More guns in the hands of untrained/nonprofessional college student equals increases in suicides and domestic violence rates that will make the unfortunate deaths at Va Tech look like nothing.

By NRA_Member

April 30, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Diane’s point.

Better, Stopper? snort

All you need is a stalker or two or a direct contract or two directed against you, and you certainly decide to become self-sufficient in the personal security arena, which includes owning a side-arm.

After all, the only good stalker is a Dead Stalker.

By Just Being Me

April 30, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

I think Diane and Shaunti would probably agree with each other if they discussed this point for point.

I, for one, agree with both of them.

By 2D

April 30, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

Is anyone surprised by the positions each of these women have taken? I would have expected the complete opposite. Oh, well. It’s good to know that Diane isn’t a complete nutcase.

I think some folks up top said this, but I’ll say it again. Guns don’t kill people, other people do. Cho could have used poison or a homemade bomb to kill that number people if the firearms were not available. “Gun Control” would not have prevented this tragedy. It merely would have changed the delivery.

Like most issues, “Gun Control”, is a very broad term. We tend to lump too many topics under one heading and that makes the discussion unproductive. If folks want to talk about assault weapons being available to the public, background checks for buyers, etc. we could possible have some constructive debate. Otherwise it becomes a big and nebulous debate that causes a great amount of emotion to bubble to the surface.

By Monica

April 30, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

At first glance of the question, my answer was that tighter gun control would not prevent these tragedies (and I found myself agreeing wtih Diane - wow!). However, after I read Shaunti’s rebuttal, I thought that she made some valid points.

By Jack

April 30, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Hi All,

Look at the crime stats for the city of Kennesaw before and after they passed the ordinance requiring every household have a gun.

By Just Being Me

April 30, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Jack,

Has enough time elapsed to really get significant stats that will accurately tell a story?

By Roger

April 30, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

I am very much for Bold:gun control! When I aim my gun I fully expect to hit the target or person, whatever I am aiming at at the time. Was a time in this country where High Schools had rifle teams (EVEN IN NYC). Children would have fewer accidents with guns if they were educated on how to use them. Everyone should have a gun and know how to use it safely. “Gun Control” Doesn’t keep guns out of a criminals hands, just the people they prey on.

If the kids on the VT campus would have had firearms, I think Cho would have been stopped a lot sooner. No weapons zones are silly!

By lovelyliz

April 30, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

The second amendment doesn’t mention bullets, does it?

By NRA_Member

April 30, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

bumper sticker: Gun Control Means Using Both Hands.

By Jeff

April 30, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Shaunti, Did you have to go outside the U.S. to get the only facts that will support you. Check out the U.S. facts that support in favor of firearms. I want stricter laws to stop criminals from having them, and tougher punishments for people who own them and children are killed or otherwise. It is the people who own them that are ignorant that create the need for tougher laws, let’s make tougher punishments. Just like Pit Bulls all are not bad but because of a few they wangt them banned.

By Archie

April 30, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

A loophole in the law allowed that Cho guy to buy a weapon. Apparently if Cho had been signed up for outpatient committment he would have gone into a database for dangerously mentally ill people and would not have been allowed to buy a weapon so Diane is correct about the way we deal with our mentally ill but it also points out how gun laws need to have loopholes closed. My reference for my comments is a story in the Miami Herald. Both Shanti and Diane make valid points and people should work together to get this situation corrected soon.

By SAR

April 30, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

And spoons make people fat, right? What about an arsonist, will we be banning matches any day now? A person can take out hundreds of lives with the strike of one match if they are bent on that type destruction. One thing could have stopped this madman, a gun from a campus cop could have stopped him. Remember, he stopped the killing himself, with his own bullet. The two types of pitols he used are as common a dirt, thousands of them are all over Amercia, they are NOT assault weapons. You left wing nut cases seem to be of the mind set that if we ban guns all the lawless criminals, thugs and killers will start playing by the rules too. Lets try FULL PRISON TERMS for criminals,not early parole and lets lock kids that kill away for good. Stop this nonesense of trying to punish law abiding citizens while you protect the criminals.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Sorry folks guns don’t kill people, people WITH guns kill people and lots of them. Take away the guns and those people are both less able and less likely to kill. You want to argue about feasibility and so forth fine, but if you think making guns extremely hard to acquire (which is the case in nearly all nations with serious gun control) won’t greatly reduce murders you’re just plain crazy. Guns not only enable people to easily kill people they give people a sense of power that is dangerous in many, many cases.

And before the first person steps up with some silly comparison to cars or anything else, guns have one purpose and one purpose only killing. If a car kills someone it’s a misuse. If a gun kills someone, it’s effective use.

And let me say, I like guns. I have shot many guns of numerous types in my life. But I also understand that if putting strict gun control in place saves numerous lives I can deal with the loss of enjoyment I might get from shooting.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Right we are punishing citizens by trying to make it less likely they will be easily and fatally assaulted. That’s exactly the plan.

You’re right he did commit this crime with weapons that are TOO ubiquitous and should be as controlled as assault weapons. Handguns are possibly more dangerous than assault weapons in the grand scheme. They are easily concealed, wielded, and can unleash a large number of rounds in a relatively short period.

Guns won’t disappear with gun control, but when you can buy 20 guns at a gun show with basically no checks and sell them easily on the street? You make guns too easy to access. Go to England and see how difficult and costly it is for anyone to get even rifles and shotguns let alone more dangerous hand guns. Make guns difficult to find and expensive to purchase and you eliminate probably 50% of our murder rate.

By Troglodyke

April 30, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

I have to say, I agree some with both Shaunti and Diane.

And Shaunti did not mention religion one time, which meant I was able to read her rebuttal without rolling my eyes.

I am surprised that Shaunti is in favor of control, and Diane against. It’s a weird shake-up, and it may put me off-balance. I’d better lock my firearms away…

Sahaunti said: I support the right of law-abiding citizens to bear arms. Just not ones that can kill 30 innocent victims in a matter of seconds.

Ah, but there we have the “slippery slope” argument, smacking us in our law-abiding faces.

When the government is given the power to ban one kind of gun, how long before the door swings wide and all guns end up being banned? That’s what gun advocates worry about. Do they have need to worry? You might think they are being irrational, but their argument does have merit, seeing that many court cases are decided on precedent.

I agree that assault weapons have no business in polite society, even for self-defense. But how do we ban them, and make sure other guns aren’t banned?

I do not hunt, but I support ethical hunting. I do own 3 handguns, and I shoot them often. I also have a Concealed Carry permit, and I want to make sure I can defend myself if need be.

It’s funny to me how the gun-control zealots have said about the VT massacre: “Just what we need—a bunch of hormonal college kids packing into classrooms…think of how horrible that would be…if those victims had all been packing, there would have been more carnage.”

How silly. Why does the idea that one or two or even 5 of the kids in those halls that day having a gun suddenly mean that they ALL would have had them? And not had any idea how to use them? Ridiculous. It always has to be looked at in the extreme, doesn’t it?

Roger said: I am very much for gun control! When I aim my gun I fully expect to hit the target or person, whatever I am aiming at at the time.

I like the bumpersticker that says, Gun control means never having to say “I missed you.”

How come the liberals never have a good comeback to the adage that banning guns will only harm law-abiding citizens? Do they honestly believe all the criminals will give up their weapons?

By Jeff

April 30, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Joe L (and others):

A properly trained person with a kitana can kill just as many people just as fast. (and even more gruesomly!) Are we going to outlaw butter knives??

BTW: In this day and age, with the focus on guns…. you don’t even have to be THAT good with a blade to inflict SERIOUS damage. Virtually NO ONE knows how to sword fight effectively, and even fewer than that are properly armed!

Ah, the adventures of a mispent youth. Parents banned guns. What did the sons do? Taught ourselves sword fighting…. SAME AS WILL HAPPEN IF GUNS CEASED TO EXIST!

By ron

April 30, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

The only thing that more gun control laws will do is enable the criminal to be more precise in the law they are going to violate.I don’t know how many laws the young Korean broke when he committed his attrocity at Virginia Tech,but I am quite sure another gun control law wouldn’t have phased him a bit.Laws and Locks are only for honest people.Criminals have no intention of obeying any laws that keep them from their crime.The only time a criminal pays any heed to a law is when his court appointed lawyer tells him how many years he can get for breaching one.Not that he’ll get anywhere the maximum.Oh,no,we believe in rehabilitation for these self appointed societal outcasts.As long as we namby-pamby with their sentences there is going to be a lot of gun crime.

By Shining Way Down Inside

April 30, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Gun control? Does that mean using both hands when you shoot the vermin down? If so, then I support gun control completely.

Shinedown asked me to pass along their well wishes to everyone on W2W. During one of the recording breaks yesterday, I pulled up the W2W blog for them to have a good laugh. They particularly enjoyed kimberly’s critique of “Simple Man”. Don’t worry, kim, I got them to agree to not mangle any more classics like that. Actually, as it turns out, Jasin, the guitarist, is married to one of the Van Zandt’s daughters.

By Jose Arcadio

April 30, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Jeff, estas loco en la cabeza. So you mean to tell me that a guy with a butter knife can do as much damage as a gun? What is he going to do: throw the butter knife, injury that person, go get it, and then repeat the first two steps?

By kimberly

April 30, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

I also agree with both Diane and Shaunti today. Despite the paranoid screeching from gun owners, no one wants the government to come into your house and take away your legally-obtained firearms because some people are just crazy. One factor not discussed by our columnists is the role of big corporate money’s influence on government, which I believe, is why existing gun laws are so hard to enforce. Gun manufacturers make a fortune in this country selling things no one needs in massive numbers, like automatic weapons that are clearly not for hunting or self-defense. Through the NRA’s vast monetary and lobbying influence in our federal and state legislatures, they ensure nothing impedes them from moving their products like Big Macs through America at every possible opportunity and venue, including poorly-regulated gun shows. Ask any successful sales force: it’s the volume, stupid. If not one more gun was imported or manufactured here after today, we’d STILL have nearly 100 guns per capita. Let’s deal with that and stop flooding the market already. Like Big Macs, more isn’t always better for the consuming public, even though big fat arterial-plaque filled brains think they need more. Big Sonic POW!

By Shining Way Down Inside

April 30, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

Even though their pictures make them look rough, it turns out that Brent, Barry, and Jasin are all extremely nice guys, and all extremely intelligent. They were cordial to let me sit on the writing/jam sessions, and even asked my opinion a few times! Lot of fun.

Watch out for their new CD when it comes out, I think it’s going to be better than their first two. Two or three of the songs I heard yesterday have a lot of potential, and one in particular I believe is going to be a huge hit. The working title is “Here’s Your Ticket”. I wish I could share the lyrics with you all(very cool), but they aren’t copyrighted yet. It’s a song about a guy giving a girl her freedom—“Here’s your ticket. You’re paid in full” He talks about how she “Speaks in riddles” but that “The truth steals the dream”. Even though he lets her go, he reassures her that he’ll always be there, that their love is eternal. It’s a hard rocking song with great guitar work.

So, just remember, you heard it first here on W2W!

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

“A properly trained person with a kitana can kill just as many people just as fast. (and even more gruesomly!) Are we going to outlaw butter knives??”

BWAH! First this is patently UNTRUE. A person with a katana would never, ever have killed 30 people at VT. It requires you being within 5 ft of EACH victim. Period. Also the key word there is “properly trained” it takes years and years of intense training to be able to wield a weapon like that. You can buy a gun and kill people with about 10 mins of “training”. The fact you resorted to this argument shows how patently ridiculous your positon is.

Guns make it easy for virtually anyone to kill large amounts of people easily. Period. If you argue against this point you are insane. As I said you can argue about the feasibility of controlling weapons at this point, but you cannot argue the basic tenent.

And for all the self defense arguments, it’s been proven statistically and anecdotally that carrying guns does very little to make yourself safer and diminishing the amount of guns in circulation would have an exponentially large effect.

By NRA_Member

April 30, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Butter knives ground down, used as throwing knives: Service for 8, 16, 24, 32, etc.

Of course if all the VT students had been armed, he/Cho would have only gotten one throw.

By Dave

April 30, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I think that gun control is a red herring. But I will talk about it.

First , the real issue is the failure of psychotherapy. He needed treatment and was allowed to refuse it. When someone poses a danger to others or themselves, they should not be allowed to refuse treatment.

Second, there should be enough funding and oversight to ensure that people can be treated. Rather than government run institutions, we need private institutions that get more than enough funding to house people like this for life.

Third, we need a better information system that flags people who refuse treatment, people who are guilty of any of the items on the list when you buy a gun. Better enforcement for people who try to buy a gun and lie on the application.

Finally, this country needs to focus much more on mental illness. I thought it was the Democrats who championed the cause. Well they are in power so DO SOMETHING!

By NRA_Member

April 30, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

The NRA’s position on current gun control laws is that if there were proper enforcement of existing gun laws, we would not have a gun “problem” in many cases, and certainly at VT.

In fact at the Law School shootings also in Virgina a few years ago, the fact that two students could quickly run to their vehicles and get firearms probably cut down on the death toll there.

By Shining Way Down Inside

April 30, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

I was able to entertain them with a little ditty I wrote Sunday morning about Jacksonville based on kimberly’s awesome blog on Friday. It goes like this:

Leathered skin and shoeless feet

Crazy kids out on the street

Smokin’ dope and drinkin’ brew

Always searching for something new

.

Jacksonville, Jacksonville

.

Beach meets bum and waves meet sand

Yet one more Skynyrd cover band

Playing loud along the coast

Helps us see what matters most

.

Jacksonville, Jacksonville

.

Stealing cars and breaking hearts

You know we always did our part

To raise some hell, raise some hell

Raising hell in Jacksonville

By Shining Way Down Inside

April 30, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Have a great day everyone!

By Karl Childers

April 30, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

Didn’t we learn from the prohibition days that you cannot legislate human behavior? If we ban guns then people will find some other way to kill. Killing is a part of our nature and it will happen. If Cho had no gun he would have used bombs or chemicals or something else. Give the potential victims a method to protect themselves if you want real results.

By Jack

April 30, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

You cannot legally buy an automatic weapon. You must buy a semiautomatic weapon and then purchase the kit to make it fully automatic.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

“Of course if all the VT students had been armed, he/Cho would have only gotten one throw.”

Yeah because constantly trained police officers don’t have to fire 20+ rounds to get a single hit on a target. And 40+ people all firing at once wouldn’t have lead to plenty of “collateral” damage.

By NetBanker

April 30, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Hey kids! Hope everyone had the chance to enjoy the beautiful weekend.

I agree with both of the columnists this week seeing as how they’ve approached the topic with completely different solutions.

The second amendment doesn’t mention bullets, does it? Liz…that’s a sneaky back door isn’t it? Maybe it’s not that we need gun control, but ammo control. Buy all the guns you want! They’re useless without the bullets.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

“Didn’t we learn from the prohibition days that you cannot legislate human behavior?”

Actually the current approach is to try to legislate behavior, bad idea. You are giving people easy access to guns and then saying “but if you BEHAVE in a certain way there’s a problem”. Of course you are expecting people to have good behavior. But if we focus on controlling THINGS it’s a lot easier. Can’t get access to a gun your behavior is now much less severe.

And to head off the inevitable comparison to drugs, drugs are easily manufactured from natural substances and requires very little advanced knowledge. Making a gun requires huge amounts of raw goods and precision manufacturing and produces an item that delivers a much, much smaller dollar per ounce payoff. Controlling the production and movement of guns would be infinitely easier than drugs.

By 2D

April 30, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

Actually, I suspect that if campus police and/or students were able carry weapons AND Cho knew about that potential, there would not have been any shootings. Still several deaths, but not shootings. I suspect he would have used some other method to kill those people.

Cho wanted to inflict damage and then take his own life. In essence, he wanted to have control. Armed campus police and students would effectively have eliminated his control over that situation (shooting up the campus then killing himself)and prompted him to do something else. Anyway you slice it, Cho could/would have killed a bunch of innocent people. It just so happens that a gun was his weapon of choice.

Here’s a different POV… What if he would’ve used a bomb or some other incendiary device rather than a gun? Would there have been even MORE carnage? Quite possibly. That scenario would have destroyed a building and very possibly taken every life inside of it.

By NetBanker

April 30, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

drugs are easily manufactured from natural substances Time for SEED CONTROL! LOL!! Speaking of which I think I’m a little late this year planting a few seeds that will grow into illegal plants.

By lovelyliz

April 30, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

The perfect combination for a rush party: a keg & Glock 9

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

“Armed campus police”

Where has anyone gotten the idea the police wasn’t armed? I have read many, many stories and never seen this fact and most, if not all, major university police forces are indeed armed.

I just love all the Sunday morning quarterbacking by people who have never fired a firearm at anything other than a defenseless deer. So if the guy in row 2 stood up to fire and then the kid in row 1 popped up what are the odds he hits him point-blank in the back? Pretty good. And what about ricochets and poor shots? Face it people, the dirty harry fantasy is just that. More guns just makes more victims.

And everyone focuses merely on this one sensational case. What about all the gun crimes that happen every day? You may not stop a homicidal mentally deranged person from finding a path (although I argue he would not have felt the power and gone after anyone if it wasn’t so easy to get a gun) it will stop the people who use guns to settle arguments, because someone cuts them off in traffic, etc. When guns are easy to acquire and use people start to see them as valid tools for too many problems and it turns everyone into a “big man”.

By 2D

April 30, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Joe… What you described is simply punishing behavior deemed hurtful to society, the same thing we do with drunk drivers. You are allowed to drink whatever and as much as you want, but if you hurt someone driving drunk, we’re going to punish you swiftly and harshly.

If I use my weapon, or a better example would be my father since he legally owns several weapons, responsibly, why should I lose that right b/c others cause problems. People can hunt or trap/skeet shoot without causing harm to others the same way people can enjoy a drink or two or three without causing harm to others. Neither should be abolished, but in both situations the person who inflicts damage to society should be dealt with.

I would be curious to see the number of people who are killed in drunk driving incidents versus killed by firearms not through self defense.

By Lyrazel

April 30, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

One of the problems of the VT case and all other senseless killings is that Americans have a national identity creed that stems from outlaw bandit legends is to go out guns blazing. I have seen enough to know that a man/woman contemplates murder for perhaps months if not years. Cho was no different. Had his web page up, had his video ready, had his plot ready and mentally saw how it would run on TV. Intervention was not offered except in pill form—pills that have been documented to make average people somewhat psychotic—especially when there is an imbalance between the pills and results. These pills create a void—were people say—it does not feel. These pills are distributed instead of intervention. Intervention would mean therapy—therapy costs too much and takes too much time—ergo pills are used because Americans want fast easy solutions.

Americans pack the largest weapons arsenal in the world and any government policy begins with War On…. I doubt many Americans would turn over to police their weapons made illegal nor would it stop illegal guns from coming into the USA. We are not a nation where pacifist measures like gun control can ever be put in place.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

I’m not describing punishing behavior, what we currently do now is punishing behavior, and it doesn’t work. I am saying make the behavior impossible by controlling an object, which is a helluva lot easier than controlling behavior (which is impossible).

There’s no reason you can’t own a hunting rifle or two or a skeet gun. We are talking about handguns which have ZERO practical application outside of shooting paper targets. Other countries allow the ownership of said guns. But their potential for easy misuse and criminal action is greatly below that of handguns.

By Michael McCarthy

April 30, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Freedom is dangerous at times. But without it, who cares if we’re safe? England has a low gun murder rate but 1 camera for every 16 citizens. It won’t be long until they have one for everyone and can watch everyone and control their lives. No, I think I’ll keep my 9mm handgun thank you very much.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel - I agree with much of what you say. I believe the biggest obstacle to gun control is attitude, not anything logistical. I guess my view is that gun control should be put in place and will when our society matures and becomes sophisticated enough and that it won’t happen the other way around. But still doesn’t mean that I won’t continue to try to make the changes that leads to the dialogs that will hopefully change the attitudes that make gun control both possible and simultaneously less important.

By chuck

April 30, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Little Joe, you prove once again that the left always resorts to either name-calling or lying when they can’t win the argument through logic. Either you know very little about research or you are lying when you say:

it’s been proven statistically and anecdotally that carrying guns does very little to make yourself safer and diminishing the amount of guns in circulation would have an exponentially large effect.

First, this statement is patently false. If you understood statistics at all, you would understand that. First, there is no possible way to prove your statement. There is no way to control for all possible variables. The use of the word “exponentially” is nothing more than hyperbole. Once again you make these claims without citing any sources, because none exist.

Second, If you want to use anecdotal “proof”, no problem. I have owned guns since the age of 14 and I have NEVER been robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered. Not one member of my family has ever had any of these things happen. All of my brothers and my sister own guns. None of them have had any kind of violent crimes perpetrated against them or any members of their families. I can therefore say with 100% accuracy “anecdotally” that owning a gun is 100% effective for preventing any violent crime.

Please feel free to post again little joe.

By 2D

April 30, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Joe… How can you preach “practical application” when so much of what we have and enjoy likewise does not have a single practical application. People don’t need a Hummer, but we allow them on the road and they probably cause more harm than other vehicles (emissions, damage caused in an accident, cause more accidents due to limited sight lines as the driver and as vehicle on the road).

I personally have never fired a weapon other than a BB gun and a vintage Revolutionary War rifle at my 6th grade camp (which was very heavy and very cool). But I know lots of people who get a huge thrill when they pull that trigger. Sometimes it is hunting a deer. Sometimes it’s shooting trap/skeet. Sometimes it is shooting at “paper targets”. Sometimes it’s out on their backwoods property shooting at cans or bottles. It might even be an intruder in their home. We cannot/should not stop people from owning and responsibly using these weapons.

Use background checks. Set mandatory waiting limits. Set age limits. Require training courses to get a license for different weapons types. Then punish people who break these laws and improperly use a weapon. That is what we did for drunk driving and it worked. Deaths have been reduced. It can work for this issue as well.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Cameras and gun control are entirely different issues. The cameras are not a part of gun control and to connect the two is specious at best. We don’t need any more cameras or direct monitoring to implement gun control.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

Ah chuck, the bastion of “logic”. Yeah and I have a coffee cup on my desk that 100% stops tiger attacks because I have never been attacked by a tiger. If all those people have NEVER used a gun in defense then the gun has ZERO effect. If you think they will actually use the gun successfully in self-defense you are ignoring the approx. 180 case that happened in a year versus the tens of thousands of cases where people were killed by guns.

The statistics were cited above, England, Japan, practically every other modern nation has stricter gun control and infinitely lower gun crime rates. The facts and logic are quite clear, but I know how facts and logic that don’t forget your beliefs are merely ignored.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel, as always, you have said more in your one post than ten of Joe L’s put together. As far as the psychiatrist’s potential role in solving the problem of violence in America, I wish I were more hopeful than you are. What is needed, IMO, is not more therapy, but more effective therapy. Currently, psychiatrists are trained using the medical “Model of Sickness” in which everyone has to be labeled (i.e. diagnosed) in order to be “helped”. While this makes sense when working with heart disease, it doesn’t make sense when dealing with people who are having mental difficulties. Once so labeled, it is hard for someone to regain their self-esteem, which is the real key to stopping violence.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

BTW, chuckie, Shinedown all agreed that you’re a F-ing D-head.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Hummers are cars and have a practical purpose. Are there more efficient better cars, sure. But the fact of the matter is that cars serve many, many practical purposes.

I don’t disagree, but my version of ownership and responsible use greatly departs from yours. No handguns. Period. The only exception to me would be as part of a shooting club that has a gun vault where the gun stays when you are not there using it.

Background checks are a joke. Ever heard of a straw man? When I can send someone “clean” to a state to buy 50 guns what use is a background check? Or are you agreeing with me that setting limits like number of guns anyone can purchase and own, set time limits between purchases, require mandatory training, force the gun companies to put safety features into place that would greatly reduce our problems? Because the NRA and the gun corporations they serve and the ordinary sportsman they manipulate to funnel money into the pockets of said corporations will never go for it.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Correction on the line in the new Shinedown song:

“But the truth can sometimes steal the dream.”

This one is going to be a hit, I can feel it in my bones. I tried to talk them into giving me a credit on the album for “Head Skull Cracker”, but they weren’t going for it. Fortunately, I was able to introduce them to chiropractic care, which all musicians need.

By Charles

April 30, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

I agree with Diane Glass, guns are not the issue here, but when Shaunti Feldhahn wrote, “we have long needed better gun control laws - which can be accomplished without Second Amendment infringement”, fragile freedom becomes the issue.

The killing and maiming of students and faculty at Virginia Tech indicates the severity of Seung-Hui Cho’s mental issues. But if a people values freedom, then there should be no better gun control laws; let the system remain as is. The tragedy at Virginia Tech is one of the horrible unintended consequences of a free people.

The character of people is almost nonexistent. Altruism, spirituality, love, compassion, honesty, has taken a back seat to the will and lust for power and material goods. Unfortunately, the power of the gun is the only method of forcing people, immoral and destitute of values, to pause and think before they act. So, given the reality, restrictions should be downgraded. In my mind, the Republican Congress was right when they let the federal assault weapons ban expire two years ago.

Stricter gun control laws can not prevent tragedies like the one at Virginia Tech. They may very well embolden people who have fewer issues than Seung-Hui Cho.

By Jack

April 30, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

Cho was not a good shot, thank God. They say he got off 170 rounds.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

Now as far as the source of a lot of the mental illness which seems endemic in our society right now, look no further than the news media. Every time there is a tragedy like this, they glamorize it with endless “tributes” to the killers and victims through weeks, months, and years of feature stories. Anyone want to bet ten movie producers are salivating right now? The fact that the most recent shooter was Asian will give them a new angle. Any guesses on the title of the forthcoming book and movie?

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

“Stricter gun control laws can not prevent tragedies like the one at Virginia Tech. They may very well embolden people who have fewer issues than Seung-Hui Cho.”

Right because the ability to access deadly easy to use weapons virtually at will doesn’t embolden anyone. The current system is exactly what does embolden people. The fact they can purchase the power of life and death with ease and execute that control with even more ease is the problem. If Cho had to go to a black market dealer (if he could find one) and pay $2K for a pistol would this have happened? If he couldn’t purchase 100s of rounds at the local Wal-Mart would this have happened? I doubt it. And even less so if he had to assemble a complex device like a bomb that required difficult to acquire components. The belief that this would have happened as easily without guns is astounding.

A crime is said to require means, motive, and opportunity. Cho had the second two but when guns are easy to acquire the first is handed to him on a platter. And even motive might have disappeared if the lure and power of a weapon wasn’t accessible to someone who felt so powerless.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Jack, do you know any of the guys over at the Tucker Gun Shop? About three years ago, the current owner, Scott, shot a carjacker up in Lilburn. Some crazy Mexican (illegal, of course), shot a woman and tried to drive away. He caused several car accidents and was trying to shoot more people before Scott popped him. My question is, how come there aren’t any shows about guys like Scott?

BTW: Quick plug for Tucker Gun Shop. Tell ‘em the crazy chiropractor sent you.

By chuck

April 30, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

STOOOOOOOOPID Argument Joe. Diane’s argument included the following:

A 1993 study in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology found no connection between gun control laws and violence rates. Gun control laws do not decrease violent crime, a federal CDC committee found in 2003. And the 2005 Clinton-commissioned and liberal-funded study by the National Academy of Sciences found the same: there is no evidence that gun control laws curb violent crimes.

As for Shaunti, her only “statistics” were the following blurb:

Stricter gun-control laws work in every other country on the planet, and they will work here. According to 2004 data from the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey, the United States accounts for 9.42 gun deaths for every 100,000 people. In England — which allows no firearms — the rate is a minuscule 0.30. And in Australia, which has banned only major assault weapons (in the wake of a similar tragedy), the rate is 1.71.

If these are the statistics you are relying on then your point is even less efficacious. The rates in England could just as easily be attributed to the “Big Brother” government as to the ban on guns. As for Australia, rates were already trending down before the ban took effect. The decrease after the ban was not statistically significant because it was no greater than the rate of decrease that was occurring PRE-BAN.

As for America’s higher rate, does that include firearm deaths in NYC and Washington D.C. where we have some of the most stringent gun controls but also some of the highest crime rates?

Could the fact that so many of our children are being raised in poverty by single parent households and the accompanying neglect? As I said, statistically, there is NO WAY to control for societal variables between those countries. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE. Finally, Social Science research can NEVER be said to PROVE ANYTHING, for that very reason. There are too many variables. Social Science research can only show a correlation, which is basically USELESS in terms of policy making when it comes to gun control.

Thanks for trying. Play again sometimes.

By Elizabeth

April 30, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

“Last time I checked PEOPLE kill people, not GUNS!”

Oh really? Last time I checked PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE. And people with semi-automatic guns kill more people than those with rifles, revolvers, etc. Tell you what, why don’t we just ban semi-automatic and assault weapons? Why don’t we declare a war on ILLEGAL guns, cracking down on the illegal manufacture and distribution?

By Jelly

April 30, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

Thanks to the Republican Party, It’s easy to buy a semi-automatic gun and mow down innocent people than it is to get an abortion.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Chuck - The band-aids that Diane is calling “gun control laws” are ridiculous. It would be like giving patients an aspirin and saying that medical care had did not improve the chances of surviving a disease.

Again what good are “stringent” laws in NYC and DC when I can drive 50 miles and buy as many guns as I want? Anyone who truly believes make guns very difficult to acquire will not lower crime is astoundingly stupid or so biased they will never make a logical decision.

So basically your argument is no statistics are valid and no argument without statistics is valid. You are the joke if you don’t have the intelligence and reason to understand that access to firearms increases gun crimes. Period. End of story. People are people and there is clear evidence that gun control works, you are just, as always, an ideological ditto machine that can’t reason on your own. Keep drinking the Kool Aid chuckie!

By 2D

April 30, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Joe… You very well may be right that limited access to guns may have prevented the VT incident. But what about other actions not related to the weapon. Many people would argue that the ability to kick him out of school, the ability to force him into a mental health facility, the ability to contact his parents and discuss his mental situation all could have prevented this tragic incident. None of those actions were options b/c the ACLU wouldn’t have allowed it.

If you want to talk about a powerful political lobby organization, look not further than the ACLU. They make the NRA look like small potatoes.

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

Hey chuckie—I notice you’re running your mouth against Joe L today. Why don’t you take me on?? On the blog or in person. your choice. You won’t, because you only like to pick on girls like Joe L. Having fun hanging out with the eighth-graders today?? What’s the fashion report??

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

I’ll make you a deal, chuck. For real. I’ll back off on you if you will be a man and apologize to kimberly for being such an A-hole to her. I’m serious. You make the apology, and I’ll turn my computer off for two weeks. What do you say, chump?

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

2D - Again you are taking the very narrow focus of this ONE incident. There are thousands upon thousands of gun crimes every year that are committed by perfectly “sane” people. You can take any single case and say X things other than gun control would’ve prevented it, but when we look at the cases as a whole we see that one solution would have worked in case upon case upon case. In this case, the school should have the right to implement fair, reviewed, and appealable treatment plans or be expelled. But the truth is Cho did not exhibit behavior that indicated he was the risk he was. That’s just the tragedy of life. But while I can’t know what someone is thinking I can know what a gun is and make it scarce.

God Bless the ACLU exists. It serves to protect the rights of individual citizens, not corporations. The NRA exists to make sure that profits don’t stop flowing to gun corporations. I’m not losing any sleep over that.

By kimberly

April 30, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Wow, a real discussion today! Good point, Jelly. The fundies will jump out to remind you that “innocent babies” don’t deserve to die, while the rest of us sinners surely do.

I too am perplexed at how guns (and greed) became attached to pulpits touting the “righteous virtues” of being an American…. of all God’s creations, the only people who happen to be right about anything, so they’d have us believe. Is it too many John Wayne movies? Were we that in love with the Duke that we lost our real values? (Or were our values always rooted in violence and greed?) His best movie anyway was The Quiet Man, in which he refused to raise his hand to another in anger. In any case, I think there are far better ways to resolve issues than to blow or blast the flesh off the bones of another. Why the reluctance to let go of such a bad thing, to the point of calling it good?

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

So, unless you want me to start publicly attacking your recently-deceased mother, your wife, and your daughter, you better think hard about making that apology, chuck. I mean, it would only be the Christian thing to do, Mr. Christianity.

So, do we have a deal, or what?

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

An Excerpt from an article on Crime in England:

*Violence in England has gotten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year’s Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice.

None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the “gold standard” of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring “a restraint on personal liberty that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of others,” a policy the magazine found at odds with “America’s Vigilante Values.” The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis that fewer private guns means less crime. The government believes that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger, and that disarming them lessens the chance that criminals will get or use weapons.

The results — the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy — are credited by the world’s gun control advocates with producing a low rate of violent crime. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell reflected this conventional wisdom when, in a 1988 speech to the American Bar Association, he attributed England’s low rates of violent crime to the fact that “private ownership of guns is strictly controlled.”

In reality, the English approach has not re-duced violent crime. Instead it has left law-abiding citizens at the mercy of criminals who are confident that their victims have neither the means nor the legal right to resist them. Imitating this model would be a public safety disaster for the United States.

The illusion that the English government had protected its citizens by disarming them seemed credible because few realized the country had an astonishingly low level of armed crime even before guns were restricted. A government study for the years 1890-92, for example, found only three handgun homicides, an average of one a year, in a population of 30 million. In 1904 there were only four armed robberies in London, then the largest city in the world. A hundred years and many gun laws later, the BBC reported that England’s firearms restrictions “seem to have had little impact in the criminal underworld.” Guns are virtually outlawed, and, as the old slogan predicted, only outlaws have guns. Worse, they are increasingly ready to use them.

Nearly five centuries of growing civility ended in 1954. Violent crime has been climbing ever since. Last December, London’s Evening Standard reported that armed crime, with banned handguns the weapon of choice, was “rocketing.” In the two years following the 1997 handgun ban, the use of handguns in crime rose by 40 percent, and the upward trend has continued. From April to November 2001, the number of people robbed at gunpoint in London rose 53 percent.

Gun crime is just part of an increasingly lawless environment. From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England’s inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England’s rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America’s, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world’s crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people.

This sea change in English crime followed a sea change in government policies. Gun regulations have been part of a more general disarmament based on the proposition that people don’t need to protect themselves because society will protect them. It also will protect their neighbors: Police advise those who witness a crime to “walk on by” and let the professionals handle it.

This is a reversal of centuries of common law that not only permitted but expected individuals to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors when other help was not available. It was a legal tradition passed on to Americans. Personal security was ranked first among an individual’s rights by William Blackstone, the great 18th-century exponent of the common law. It was a right, he argued, that no government could take away, since no government could protect the individual in his moment of need. A century later Blackstone’s illustrious successor, A.V. Dicey, cautioned, “discourage self-help and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians.”*

Read the entire article HERE:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

By Still Looking To the Light

April 30, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

I too am perplexed at how guns (and greed) became attached to pulpits touting the “righteous virtues” of being an American…. of all God’s creations, the only people who happen to be right about anything, so they’d have us believe.

Keep remembering, kim, the Devil wears many disguises. God dresses plainly.

By MrRogers

April 30, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

There went the neighborhood.

By Jack

April 30, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Hi Sweetness. That was one of my favorites too. I liked the part when that fish pulled the priest into the water.

By Renee

April 30, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

So gun legislation would immediately cut down violent crimes. If a criminal doesn’t have a gun, he will wander aimlessly around, wanting to commit a crime, yet can’t?? I don’t think so, matter of fact, I know that won’t happen. I mean why shouldn’t we be armed against the criminals. G

By Ed

April 30, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

I can not imagine a man not having a pistol or a shotgun in his home to protect his family. Or, a woman for that matter. What are you going to do if or when someone kicks your front door in? Are you going to cry like a big baby, call 9-1-1 while your wife or family is being assaulted. I am not talking about guns lying around the house out in the open, I am talking about responsible gun owners who self protect. Besides, you will never remove our guns from us, never. Look at the past history of gun control. Anti-gun candidates have had very little to no support removing our guns from us. The NRA is a very, very powerful organization, one I am proud to be active in and a lifetime member of. I encourage responsible, legal and permitted guns for self protection. Go to the firing ranges and learn how to shoot for sport. I don’t hunt, I don’t even eat meat, but I am very…very good (and responsible) with a gun.

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Nice try little joe, but that was NOT your argument. You haven’t quoted even ONE study that supports ANY of these claims, but we are just supposed to take your word for it, for you are MIGHTY JOE. Don’t you watch CSI? Most murders are committed by blunt force trauma. Let’s ban baseball bats and vases. These were your claims joe. How does any of what you have said since correlate to these claims:

it’s been proven statistically and anecdotally that carrying guns does very little to make yourself safer

Make guns difficult to find and expensive to purchase and you eliminate probably 50% of our murder rate.

When guns are easy to acquire and use people start to see them as valid tools for too many problems and it turns everyone into a “big man”.

By Monica

April 30, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, your post made me think of song lyrics: I found a preacher who spoke of the light but there was brimstone in his throat ~Mary Chapin Carpenter

By Lily Toad

April 30, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

Kathryne Johnston is a perfect example of a citizen with a gun who was killed because she had a gun. Unless you are going to a shooting range to practice, your precious gun will not save you and could cause you to be killed.

By Facts

April 30, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

Richard Speck killed eight Chicago nurses in 1966. With a knife.

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Talking about God is boring, though. Here’s what the Bible says about Satan:

He is an angel with a body, soul, and spirit like all other angels. He is described in Ezekial as a most beautiful creature who fell from Grace through personal pride over his own beauty. According th Ephesians, Corinthians and John, he is a great celestial and terrestrial ruler. He rules the business, social, political, and religious activities of the majority of mankind. He is the head of Man’s religions, and is a leader in religious affairs according to Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 along with 2 Corinthians 11:14.

You taking notes, chuck?

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers, low rent all the way now.

By Roger

April 30, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

The Bill of Rights allows for us to own guns so we can rise up against a repressive government. You people would give up that right so that a few people can be saved? Stupid. Remember what Hitler took away…GUNS! So when Hilary declares herself dictator for life, I for one plan on being able to retaliate when her Storm Troopers come knocking at my door.

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

No, I’m not taking NUTS.

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Nice point Roger

By chuck

April 30, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Although roger, if she sends Storm Troopers/ wouldn’t a light saber or blaster be more effective?

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

So, since the Devil is beautiful and wears many disguises, how can you tell which force is operating on you? According to the Bible, these are the clues:

He is cunning. He creates division and strife. He provokes to sin, and causes offense. He causes double-mindedness, darkness and oppression, doubt and disbelief. He is presumptuous and proud. He tries to cause men to end their lives by making them think it is the best way out. He is the Author of Confusion.

By Roger

April 30, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

wouldn’t it be fun to sit in your front room and shoot the stupid “would be” house jackers as the break down your door?

Or as the Car Jacker walks up, reach down, open your glove box and c** your handgun?

Or as the rapist attempts to push your down the alley, you reach in your purse, take the safety off and cap the son of a gun?

Justice is best served from a Warm Gun….

By Roger

April 30, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

I think a .45 will penetrate that plastic armor, and I meant storm troopers like Brown Shirts or SS rather than Speilbergian.

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

So, what is God’s purpose in allowing Satan to continue? Again, according to the Bible:

(1) To develop character and faith in the believer.

(2) To keep him humble.

(3) To provide conflict that saints may be rewarded through overcoming.

(4) To demonstrate the power of God (Love) over the power of Satan (Hate).

(5) To use him in afflicting people to bring them to repentance.

(6) To purge man of all possibility of falling in the eternal future.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

So now chuck is basing his facts on CSI! BWAH! Yeah keep proving what a sound mind you have there chuckie. I actually lived in Great Britain and know people there. The crime there doesn’t even come close to the levels we have there and the facts are that gun crimes are still extremely rare.

Roger - You take your pistol and stand up to a missile coming at your house or a M1 tank. The belief that gun ownership has any effect on our government in the modern world is a fiction. Our military is composed of our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers and that is why you need not fear a military take over.

I love all the people who talk about defending their homes yet only 180 cases of justifiable homicide occurred versus the thousands and thousands of gun crimes.

By AnotherDayOfMen

April 30, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

GUNS are the not problem:

CHICAGO (April 28) - A man who told police he was disciplining his girlfriend’s sons over chores when the situation escalated pleaded not guilty Friday to fatally stabbing the boys and sexually assaulting their 13-year-old sister.

The bodies of the boys, ages 12 and 14, were found at their home early Thursday, around the time their mother was arriving home from her job at O’Hare International Airport. They had been stabbed repeatedly with a steak knife.

Brian Gilbert, 36, a convicted sex offender, is charged with first-degree murder, attempted murder and sexual assault.

By Bryan

April 30, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know the answer to this question? Did mass attacks happen at schools or public places back inthe 60’s, 70’s or 80’s? I do not remember hearing about nearly as many as I hear about today. Gun laws certainly have not become less restrictive and guns have not become more availiable. So why the increase in violence? Upbringing? Mental health? Something I missed?

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

And when we are with God, we know by the following clues:

A. A Christ-like spirit of love, patience, and faith in God.

B. Soberness and keenness of spiritual vision.

C. A deep humility of heart and meekness of spirit, with a lion-like courage against sin, sickness, poverty, disease, discouragement, and failure.

D. Freedom from all fault-finding, surmising, whispering, or slander to anyone, and freedom form all works of the flesh.

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

So what do you say, chuckie? Let’s do a mutual exorcism, right here on W2W. Looking at the above list of Godly attributes, I see that I have fallen far short of the Glory of God, especially here on W2W. So, will you join me in prayer to cleanse ourselves and begin anew?

By Lily Toad

April 30, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

I got immense satisfaction when a carjacker reached for the passenger door of my van and my border collie jumped from the floor between the front seats toward him. HA! You shoulda seen him recoil.

By Devil's Advocate

April 30, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Let us pray together, chuck.

God, I am a sorry wretch. Though you have given me great gifts, I have misused them. Instead of being a beacon of light for others to follow, I have fallen into darkness. Lord, show me the Light! Help me find the courage to stay on your path! Blow the pith of Self from me!

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Heh Lily Toad. And who’s gonna be the first trigger happy, jumpy person who puts a round in someone who’s dashing across the street and gets a little too close to their car? Because we are either asking people to make potentially deadly judgements or wait until the carjacker reveals themselves and then the odds of using your gun are minimal at best.

By Lily Toad

April 30, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Bryan, I think the increase in gun violence is due to the prevalence of violent movies and video games. There were shoot-outs in earlier decades — some in post offices with disgruntled employees, hence the term, “going postal.” Also, I think copy cats are duplicating things they see on TV with the incessant attention paid to such occurrences. Deeply disturbed people don’t just kill themselves, they take as many as they can, then off themselves.

By Mara

April 30, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

“One proposal is to provide an incentive for states to share information on felons, dangerously mentally ill patients and others disqualified from owning guns by helping states pay the cost of reporting the data. On the flip side, states might also face penalties for not submitting the information. Federal prodding might succeed where common sense has so far failed.”

“An impeccable federal background check database would make it more difficult for dangerous people to illegally obtain guns. That is an important step. Congress also can do more to stop the determined ex-convict or would-be mass murderer from bargaining for a cheap handgun on a street corner. Among other things, rejecting the so-called Tiahrt amendment and similar measures that restrict local police departments’ access to federal gun-tracing information would help investigators across the country shut down the rogue gun sellers who account for a huge majority of the firearms used in crime”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901144.html

“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” - Thomas Jefferson

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

Oh and I know it doesn’t matter to a zealot dittohead like yourself chuckie, but here you go:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111181527.htm

“Firearms are used to kill two out of every three homicide victims in America.. In the first nationally representative study to examine the relationship between survey measures of household firearm ownership and state level rates of homicide, researchers at the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found that homicide rates among children, and among women and men of all ages, are higher in states where more households have guns”

So that debunks your CSI-based “fact” about blunt trauma and shows that guns make you less safe.

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Of course it as all for our “safety”— Nevermind the over 800k incidents each and every year where people use guns in a defensive manner. How many deaths would there have been had they not had a gun? The second amendment is to protect the people from a tyrannous government…and NOT so we’re able to hunt, skeet shoot, or any of that nonsense. Had more of today’s nintendo head punks had weapons there to protect themselves— It might had been a different story. Or, if the panty-waist cops on duty wouldn’t have stood down for 2 hours—and gone in there guns blazing — the death toll would have certainly been less. But, so nobody got sued, we’ve emmasculated the young men/students and cops to be defenseless and void of true leadership respectively. I guess John Wayne is truly dead.
The right defend oneself (NO not the right to call 911 and have someone else come as soon as they can with a gun and try and defend you)has been established since the dawn of time and more recently in the 6th and 7th century. Although simplistic, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them. More specifically though— the first 10 amendments concern what limitations are placed on Government. They CAN’T: prohibit free speech, press, assembly, put soldiers in your house, search and seize your stuff on a whim, take your arms, etc… FURTHER, any of the rights not named were reserved unto the states and the people—NOT the imperial federallies. My how things have changed… People need to wake up and turn off American Idol, the Falcons, and other gibberish (ie:programming)— get a gun, stay independent— picture yourself in 1928 prior to the depression—and ask what you would need if it were to happen again. Be ready to help yourself and NOT go to a FEMA facility. Just think New Orleans Superdome 2 days after Katrina— How does the Georgia dome feel at about 95 degrees? Not to breezy in there is it?

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks. —- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:16 PM | Link to this

Joe L: Here are an assortment of facts as compiled by a pro-gun outfit: http://www.guncite.com/index.html The information will be helpful for you to realize that (in your carjacking example)— if more thugs knew that more people were armed and ready to use them— they would pick another hobby and thus the rate of car jacking would drop.

By Lily Toad

April 30, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

Now how am I going to hold my cell phone, drink coffee, change radio stations, put on make-up AND grab my handgun?

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

to protect yourself is only natural. If I am a thug and want to hurt people—I want to go where there are people just itchin to be a victim— AHA!! go to a “Gun Free Zone!”— Right now that is VT, other schools, etc…— But, if Shaunti/gun control fools have their way it will be everywhere in the US and my prospects for total mayhem are looking pretty good!

By Lily Toad

April 30, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

All you self-defense advocates are forgetting about the element of surprise. The criminal already has his gun ready. Unless he’s breaking into your house and you have a chance to grab your gun, he’s got the disadvantage. Do you really think a woman who is being raped will have time to pull a gun out of her purse? A driver will have her gun ready? A student has his gun in hand?

By Redbaron1967

April 30, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

I’m glad to see that the folks who read the AJC have much better insight to our problems than the folks who write the AJC. The people who say guns are made only for killing are certainly showing their ignorance of the gun issue. Guns are not the problem. The problem is this hateful society in which we live today. The Founding Fathers were RIGHT ON with the Second Amendment which has nothing to do with hunting or target shooting. Funny, those are the kind of shooting activities that the far-left politicians like to say they are not going to tamper with. They must be ignorant of the real reason for the Second Amendment, too. Anyway, the Va Tech shooting has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with a deranged killer named Cho….

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Lily Toad— Headset for the cell phone Superlong straw for the Coffee Voice command for the radio One hand on the wheel and one sweaty paw on the 9mm ready to make some punk a statistic.

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

No Hegelian they would just shoot you outright rather than try to threaten you and give you a chance to shoot. And the number of innocent people shot by dirty harry wannabes that are making up for an obvious deficiency (probably between their legs) will skyrocket.

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

Well Lily, Cho did have time to go home and make a movie, pack and ship via Fedex and come back to finish up his ultimate task… I could have manufactured a gun with bubble gum by then…

By Joe L

April 30, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

A deranged killer who’s capacity to kill many people quickly came from guns. Period. You can deny that all you want but it doesn’t change the truth. There will always be deranged killers so why make it easier for them to kill?

Again people who think guns keep the King of England out of your face in the modern world have a severe, severe departure from reality and a severe lack of faith in the men and women in uniform who you would resist against.

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Joe L— just look at the places here that have the most restrictive gun laws— your major cities. How about the crimes? They aren’t better off for it. People who have guns and are trained to use them are far better off. I’d rather have a carjacking wannabe come to me with guns blazing—-AND I have a gun—rather than hope he, someone we both agree isn’t following the law, is following the same gun control law as me… Sorry, that works in fantasyland—but not in reality. Just look at the criminal world… they use guns all the time to make their point, make threats and enact justice—albeit on their terms. Thugs understand force. But, I can’t wield a chinese star at a gun fight. I can’t draw a switchblade against a .45. Just because they have the element of surprise doesn’t a) make them a world class shooter and b) have their gun jam, etc… A level playing field is all I ask. Should gun owners be fully trained. you bet. But right now, with everything as it is— I can tell you more people are saved each year by having a gun to defend themselves than are killed by the rogue carjacker. The number saved is conservatively 800k each year —but probably more than 1 to 1.2 Million times each year!! But more to the point, the 2nd amendment is focus completely on the citizen and their government. Government,like fire, is force (as stated by Washington)— It is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. — I will not accept an arbitrary argument ( promising I would be safer) that is used to remove a fundamental, God-given right.

By Hegelian

April 30, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

I have a problem with calling someone else to bring a gun, and waiting for them to arrive— and then pray they respond quickly once they get there…VT is perfect proof as to why there should be more guns. Tell you what— I would ban the SSRI drugs that most of these weirdos are on— then you might find a tad bit of normalcy out there. But, simply put— If you have catatonic zoloft snortin zombies out there programmed to kill by constant wargaming on X-Box video games—- I take the hand gun as my defense when that fool snaps. Columbine, Kip Kinkel, Jeff Weise, Unabomber, etc… all have something in common— SSRI psychotropic drugs. Lets get rid of those— NOT our right to defend ourselves…

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By AnotherDayOfMen

May 1, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this

Guns aren’t the problem:

LOS ANGELES (May 1) - A former pizza deliveryman described by prosecutors as one of the city’s most prolific serial killers was convicted Monday of murdering 10 women and one victim’s fetus in the 1980s and ’90s.

Turner , 40, is already serving an eight-year prison sentence for the 2002 rape of a woman near downtown. His DNA in that case linked him to the serial killings, which spanned from 1987 to 1998. One victim was Regina Washington, 27, who was six months pregnant when she was strangled with an electrical cord behind a vacant house in September 1989. Andrea Tripplett, 29, was five months pregnant when she was strangled in April 1993. There were no witnesses to any of the killings, but a security camera recorded the murder of Paula Vance, 38, in February 1998. The grainy video made it hard to make out Vance and her assailant, but it did show her being thrown to the ground. After about 15 minutes, a man could be seen walking away from her body.

By chuck

May 1, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this

My goodness little joe. Are you really that obtuse? The short answer is YES. The CSI comment was tongue-in-cheek dufus. And I guess the fact that you “know people in England” trumps the actual crime statistics that come directly from Scotland Yard. Yep, your feet are firmly planted in reality.

By Lyrazel

May 1, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

Having a gun does not make you safe, it does not make your family safer. Indeed most people who own handguns are more at risk from accidental death and injury than people are shot by handguns. Children are the primary risk when a family owns a handgun. The safe place may not be so safe. Women who own handguns report those guns were frequently used against them during the altercation—if found by the assailant. More often than actually using a gun in self-defence accidental discharging from cleaning a gun, from mishandling a gun and faulty construction is the greatest source injury for gun owners—not criminals. Remember the man in GA who just shot his wife because he thought she was a prowler. Remember the man in GA shot another commuter because he was irate at the driver who cut him off. Sometimes the owners of guns are their own worst enemies.

By Craig

May 1, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this

Thanks for your courage, Shaunti, and of course Joe L and others who want some sensible controls over guns. Not confiscation, as Chuck and the NRA wackos cry, but controls to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.

In recent incidents the police and FBI both killed some of their own people. If highly trained people like that make mistakes with their weapons, I sure don’t want a bunch of yahoos with little or no training packing heat. Many more people will die if we succomb to the lame ideas of Hegellen and Chuck.

By Craig

May 1, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Amen, Lyrazel.

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By chuck

May 1, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Sorry Lyrazel, but that just simply is not true.

Previous research has consistently indicated that victims who resist with a gun or other weapon are less likely than other victims to lose their property in robberies(3) and in burglaries.(4) Consistently, research also has indicated that victims who resist by using guns or other weapons are less likely to be injured compared to victims who do not resist or to those who resist without weapons. This is true whether the research relied on victim surveys or on police records, and whether the data analysis consisted of simple cross-tabulations or more complex multivariate analyses.

Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun - EBSCOhost Full Text K Gary, M Gertz - Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1995

According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year — one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds. Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone “almost certainly” would have died had the gun not been used for protection — a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone “probably” would have died if the gun hadn’t been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first — disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn’t make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn’t be called “newsworthy” by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare — well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers — and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm — martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns — gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender’s home.

Source: “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun,” by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995

By NRA_Member

May 1, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

We give Darwin Awards to stupid idiots who off themselves while cleaning their weapons. The less of them in the gene pool, the better.

By chuck

May 1, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

http://www.justfacts.com/issues.guncontrol.asp

• Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

• In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.” (16c)

• Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.’s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

By Monica

May 1, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Does anyone have research after the year 2000? After Columbine and 911? It would be interesting to see if the numbers of gun-realted accidental deaths are the same or if they have risen since the early 90’s.

By chuck

May 1, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

http://worldexaminer.typepad.com/worldexaminer/notabledefensivegun_uses/index.html

By Lyrazel

May 1, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

chuck, do gun owners have any sort of testing that could be done to possibly combat some of the problems we have in this society with gun users? For example with owning cars—people need to renew driver licenses—should there be a program that regulates gun owners more than a initial 3-day wait, possibly tougher laws requiring gun owner participation BEFORE the license to own is given. I think having to continuously renew a gun permit (say every 5 years) might help spot some dangerous unbalanced folk that slipped through the foggy paperwork. As always criminals wont register—but perhaps their lack of registering can help police enforcement keep them in jail like a revoked license keeps a DUI in jail a bit longer after being caught again.

By Peter

May 1, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Diane - If the metal detectors at government buildings are meaningless why don’t the legislators let everyone with a firearm in the building? It appears that our conservative leaders believe in gun control for their own safety but want the rest of us to take our chances. (I’m not buying it.)

By AnotherDayOfMen

May 1, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Guns are not the problem:

Gwinnett police are looking for two young men in the abduction and rape of a motorist who was attacked after she had pulled up to a stop sign in Snellville.

At the stop sign, one man struck the woman with a blunt object through the open window of her car. The two men got into the front seat on either side of the woman and took over control of her car. One of the men drove to another location, where both men allegedly physically and sexually assaulted the woman, he said.

Afterward, the two men forced the woman into the trunk of her car and drove around for a short time. They stopped and warned the woman to stay in the trunk until they left the area.

Both of the attackers are described as thin black males, between the ages of 16-20.

By 2D

May 1, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel… Those are great suggestions. Based on what I’ve seen from my father, it seems that current regulations are more about tracing a particular weapon and ensuring that person doesn’t buy a weapon on impulse versus identifying whether or not a person knows the proper way to care for and use the weapon.

But at what point do we run into a situation where the effort to regulate guns comes with diminishing returns? Look at the DMV. We are required to pass a test for a driver’s license. We are required to register our vehicles. Yet there are still unlicensed folks driving unregistered cars. People are also not supposed to drive under the influence of drugs/alchol yet we have thousands of deaths associated with drunk driving and countless other DUI related arrests every year. All we can do is prosecute the people to the fullest extent of the law, which is not nearly extensive enough in my opinion.

By Just Being Me

May 1, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Well, that settles it. Thin, black males are the problem.

By AnotherDayofWomen

May 1, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Well, that settles it. Thin, black males are the problem.

But no older than 20.

By Joe L

May 1, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

“In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.” (16c)”

You do realize those “armed victims” are typically OTHER criminals! We are not talking about law-abiding citizens protecting themselves from criminals, we are talking about the wild, wild, west that exists in too many areas of the U.S.

I really trust a self-reported survey about how many times a gun was used in defense. Every nut I know that talks about his gun being necessary for defense thinks he has defended himself dozens of times when I know it’s not true. He sees someone “shady” walking down the street and cocks his gun and when the guy walks by he committed a “gun defense”. There are 180 cases of justifiable homicide in the U.S. last reported figures. If guns were used 800K times in defense there is no way those figures would be that low.

By Renee

May 1, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

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By Monica

May 1, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

Forget about gun control; Houston, we have a new problem!

Woman Uses Snakes to Keep Police at Bay

By Brenda W. Arbuckle

May 1, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Gun laws are for those obey the law. The shootings at Columbine, VT, CNN, Olympic Park, Malls, etc. are perpetrated by mentally disturbed persons who should have been committed or incarcerated long ago.

VT should be sued by every family who lost a love one or had one hurt in view of what they knew about their shooter.

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May 1, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

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By Renee

May 1, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

We really should have better snake legislation because this could have been prevented.

Gun laws are for those obey the law. The shootings at Columbine, VT, CNN, Olympic Park, Malls, etc. are perpetrated by mentally disturbed persons who should have been committed or incarcerated long ago.

Maybe so, but usually they are not found out to be mentally disturbed until after the tragedy has taken place. Odd behavior does not equate mentaly disturbed, and in my humble opinion, everything was done that could be done in the VT situation. He was found mentally unstable, but they had no reason to throw him in a strait jacket for 50 years.

Unfortunately, tragedies happen. And while we should do all we can to prevent such tragedies from occurring, sometimes there is SIMPLY NOTHING that can be done to prevent them. People who are usually determined to be normal, snap. Remember Mark Barton. But I guess that gun legislation would have prevented that (please keep in mind that he killed his wife and children with a blunt object and then drowned them or something like that) before he went on his shooting spree. Sane people snap, and all mentally ill people aren’t a danger to society. Sometimes sh!t happens. It’s unfortunate for the families/people involved, but it happens.

By 2D

May 1, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Joe… No, we didn’t realize “armed victims” are typically other criminals. How do you know that? Did you do a background check on each of them?

By Joe L

May 1, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

“Remember Mark Barton. But I guess that gun legislation would have prevented that (please keep in mind that he killed his wife and children with a blunt object and then drowned them or something like that) before he went on his shooting spree.”

I love how you try to connect the tragic way he killed his family to the easy means that enabled him to kill what 9 more people? Gun control WILL NOT end murder. The attempt that gun nuts try to make this argument as a defense is moot. However it will greatly diminish the number of murders and violent assaults.

By Joe L

May 1, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

2D - Because I have a brain and I can use logic. 24% of criminals were shot at, who do you think did the shooting? Not law-abiding citizens. Because I knew many, many people with carry permits who have never drawn a gun let alone fired one. So where could that 24% of people have come from? Criminals. But gun nuts will twist anything to keep their sad ideology alive.

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May 1, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

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May 1, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

AUSTIN, Texas - A 27-year-old Austin MAN was arrested on Friday and charged with placing an unexploded bomb containing some 2,000 nails outside an abortion clinic in the state’s capital.

The explosive device also included a propane tank and a mechanism “akin to a rocket,” Austin Police Commander David Carter said.

The device was discovered on Wednesday in the parking lot of the Austin Women’s Health Center, police said.

The Texas Joint Terrorism Task Force — made up of federal, state and local law enforcement authorities — arrested Paul Ross Evans, who authorities said was on parole for an unspecified crime.

Evans was charged with violating federal laws banning the manufacture of explosives and interfering with access to an abortion clinic. He appeared before a federal magistrate, and was being held without bail.

By Archie

May 1, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

The governor of Virginia issued an executive order closing the loophole in the gun law that allowed Cho to get a weapon. Once again I think we need to improve gun laws and deal with the mentally ill better. I kinda agree with Renee that everybody did what they could do to prevent the VT tragedy. Now, there is a stronger law in effect because of the tragedy, unfortunately.

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May 2, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

By Just Being Me

May 2, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

I realize it would be terribly difficult for those of us who have W2W addictions, but I wonder if it might get Diane and Shaunti’s attention if we boycott the blog for a full week. If all the regulars (and the would-be regulars like me) just refrain from posting here for a week, perhaps they would make more of an effort to clean this up.

Or maybe an e-mail flood?

I just can’t figure out why this is the only blog on this site so infested with spam.

By NetBanker

May 2, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Hey JBM ~waving~ So nice to see you back!!

Just to change up the topic a tad because the arguments seem to becoming repetitive and we’re moving toward personal attacks rather than logical discussion I’m throwing in this lovely story from today’s newspaper. What I really want to know is if this is technically a “flip-flop” or not because it was made very clear in the last campaign that W does not do that.

White House reneges on wiretap pledge

By James Risen New York Times

Published on: 05/02/07

Washington —- Senior Bush administration officials told Congress on Tuesday that they could not pledge that the administration would continue to seek warrants from a secret court for a domestic wiretapping program, as it agreed to do in January.

Rather, they argued that the president had the constitutional authority to decide for himself whether to conduct surveillance without warrants.

As a result of the January agreement, the administration said the National Security Agency’s domestic spying program has been brought under the legal structure laid out in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which requires court-approved warrants for the wiretapping of U.S. citizens and others inside the United States.

But on Tuesday, the senior officials, including Michael McConnell, the new director of national intelligence, said they believed that the president still had the authority under Article II of the Constitution to once again order the NSA to conduct surveillance inside the country without warrants.

During a hearing Tuesday of the Senate Intelligence Committee, McConnell was asked by Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.) whether he could promise that the administration would no longer sidestep the court when seeking warrants.

“Sir, the president’s authority under Article II is in the Constitution,” McConnell said. “So if the president chose to exercise Article II authority, that would be the president’s call.”

The administration had earlier argued that both the president’s inherent executive powers under Article II of the Constitution, as well as the September 2001 congressional authorization to use military force against al-Qaida, provided him with the power to conduct surveillance without warrants.

McConnell emphasized that all domestic electronic surveillance was now being conducted with court-approved warrants, and said that there were no plans “that we are formulating or thinking about currently” to resume domestic wiretapping without warrants. “But I’d just highlight,” he said, “Article II is Article II, so in a different circumstance, I can’t speak for the president what he might decide.”

The exchange came as the administration is seeking new legislation to update the surveillance act to expand the government’s surveillance powers, in part to deal with vast changes in communications technology since 1978, when the measure was enacted.

The White House says the outmoded rules embedded in the law mean that the government cannot eavesdrop on some telephone calls, e-mail and other communications that do not involve Americans or impinge on the privacy rights of people inside the United States.

By RNC_Mail_Server

May 2, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

The dog ate our e-mail.

By supplytdai

May 2, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

By Monica

May 2, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Net, I’d share my opinion about your article, but I’m afraid that presi… er…big brother might be recording my computer keystrokes :)

By supplywbrh

May 2, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

By Tuscon

May 2, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Net, I’d share my opinion about your article, but I’m afraid that presi… er…big brother might be recording my computer keystrokes

and they don’t even need a warrant to go to the ajc and get the info about who is doing that subversive trash talk at the W2W blog. Is there a big black Surburban outside your school? Oopps, spoke too soon, one just drove up here.

By chuck

May 2, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

I think your answer to that question NetB, was in the article itself:

McConnell emphasized that all domestic electronic surveillance was now being conducted with court-approved warrants, and said that there were no plans “that we are formulating or thinking about currently” to resume domestic wiretapping without warrants. “But I’d just highlight,” he said, “Article II is Article II, so in a different circumstance, I can’t speak for the president what he might decide.”

I think the AJC gave it’s typical leftist slant with the headline, which in no way reflects what was said in the article:

White House reneges on wiretap pledge

The Whitehouse didn’t RENEGE on anything. All domestic wire taps are still done after wiretaps are obtained. Just another attempt to play “gotcha”.

By chuck

May 2, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers?

Much more likely to be an ambulance with men in white coats carrying a straight jacket.

By chuck

May 2, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

ooops, after WARRANTS are obtained. And no that was not a Freudian slip.

By Jack

May 2, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Just think, if England had strict gun control laws in the 1700’s, the Boston tea party would not have happened and we would still be paying for the Queen.

By NetBanker

May 2, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

CHuck…I have an extremely healthy skepticism with this administration. They specifically promised not to do something going forward period. While they article states they are following the law now and don’t have plans to do so the administration leaving the door open to revert to no warrant surveillance at their discretion. I know this game because I’ve seen it at work and in politics.

there were no plans “that we are formulating or thinking about currently” The cover they’re attempting to create for for themselves is that the statement is completely, 100% true as of RIGHT NOW, but next week, next month, or next quarter is another thing altogether.

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May 2, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

Do you think that they will eventually have quotas on the amount of suveillance warrants in order to reduce terrorism by 5% each month? Or will it be called a performance standard instead?

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By NRA_Member

May 2, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Just think, if England had strict gun control laws in the 1700’s, the Boston tea party would not have happened and we would still be paying for the Queen.

In fact, individual ownership of guns was almost a requirement, if financially possible, in England at the same time (1600s-1700s). And not a requirement to be part of any “militia” either.

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By Dan Cazeault

May 7, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Ms. Feldhahn, You simply must do more research. Gun control laws we already have are not being properly enforced. Do you really think MORE laws will solve anything? As well, it is actually easier to buy guns off the street than by legal means. I, being a law abiding gun owner,can tell you. Buying a handgun requires more paperwork than writing your own novel. Where as, I can just go down the street and find someone willing to sell me one no questions asked. If Cho hadn’t gotten one through legal means he would have gotten one illegally. The law was not the problem. HE was. He just wanted to KILL. He was mentally ill!!! How would any gun law have fixed that? Anyway, we are a FREE country BECAUSE we all have the RIGHT to be armed. It is a RIGHT…which has now become a privelidge. However, there should be laws, which we have, to restrict people from getting guns who shouldn’t have them. As well, when someone does break those laws, there should be more severe consequences. We need to enforce the laws we have better. Not just create more laws and useless politics and beaurocracy. Finally, NO gun law has brought down the crime rate. In fact, after the Brady bill started, the crime rate (including gun violence and murder) in Washington DC got worse not better. In contrast, in Texas, a law was made to give the law abiding citizen, the right to carry a handgun. The crime rate and murder rates have since gone down in that state. Oh, and by the way….Hitler took away All guns from the citizens of Germany….look how that turned out…. :/

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