Woman to Woman

By Kat Leache

March 4, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Shaunti Feldhahn states that, “of course (the Gardisil vaccine) has the potential to encourage underage sex.” Why “of course,” Ms. Feldhahn? Where is the evidence for this?

And am I the only person who remembers adolescence well enough to recall that distant-seeming dangers like cervical cancer were not exactly high on the list of factors I took into account when making decisions in my day-to-day life? I simply can’t imagine a scenario in which a teenage girl makes her decision about whether or not to have sex based on the availability of the Gardisil vaccine. Frankly, it’s ludicrous.

My own decision to remain abstinent as a teenager was influened by my family’s moral values and my religious beliefs, despite being educated by the Memphis Public School system where, in the early 90’s at least, they taught sex ed with respect to methods of birth control other than abstinence. To believe that the availability of a vaccine, a condom, a pill, or an abortion is more powerful than the influence of ones upbringing is naive to say the least.

When can we emerge from our moral vacuum and admit that, while abstinence is unquestionably the best choice for most, if not all, teenagers, it is and will always remain practically delusional to assume that we can ever convince all teenagers not to have sex with each other.

I believe that as human beings we have an obligation to try to better and heal the real world, the place where we actually live, not the “best of all possible worlds,” a place that only exists in storybooks.

By Jenny Grace

March 4, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

As an Ob/Gyn and a mothe of a 9 year-old daughter I have genuine concerns about mandating the Gardasil vaccine for all up and coming 6th graders in the state of Georgia. Let’s step away from the moral arena and examine the science of this cancer and vaccine.

Cervical cancer is almost always caused by a virus called HPV. It’s estimated that over half of all women will have carried and cleared the virus by the age of 50 without it causing any disease. Of the small number of women who get abnormal pap smears (cervical dysplasia) from the infection, 90% clear the virus and go back to having normal pap smears without treatment or intervention. The remaining 10% who have persistent dysplasia (picked up by pap smears) can almost always be treated with conservative measures in the doctor’s office. 3,700 women died in 2005 from cervical cancer, 85% had never had a pap smear and a significant number had not had one in over 10 years. Cervical cancer usually takes approximately 10 years to develop after infection. As a side, influenza kills ten times that many Americans yearly and we have no policy mandating the flu vaccine.

Gardasil, manfactured by Merck and the only HPV vaccine on the market, underwent a short 4 year study on women between the ages of 16 and 26. No girls under the age of 16 were included in the trial but we’re proposing mandating it for our 10 and 11 year-old daughters? Additionally, only abnormal pap smear rates were measured in the study since cervical cancer takes so long to develop and the study only looked out 4 years. Gardasil is FDA approved down to the age of 9, but we have no safety data on our targeted age range, no long term data on any age range, no direct cancer rate data, and no idea if we’ll have to booster with another dose and when. It also covers only 70% of the strains of HPV that cause persistent dysplasia so this isn’t a cure or even a reason to change the recommendations on pap smears and shouldn’t be presented as such. Incidentally this is a $360 vaccine series per girl with an approximate cost of 21.6 million dollars to vaccinate upcoming 6th grade girls annually in our state.

This is a great breakthrough, a step in the right direction, and a wonderful option. Let’s keep watching, get some additional safety data and length on the study, keep it an option and widely available. Let’s make sure our women know about the importance of pap smears.

By Kat Leache

March 4, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

That’s an excellent point, Dr. Grace, and I’m really glad to hear the opinion of an OB/GYN on the subject. I am not particularly opposed or in favor of the measure (in part because I don’t know much about it, so thanks for the info!) but can’t help but be a little suspicious of the big push to pass legislations regarding such a new drug. I’m especially leery considering the way Gardisil conducted its initial publicity efforts, making their first rounds of ads more like PSAs, with no mention of the vaccine or their company. It makes you wonder if any money has changed hands. Not that I’m a conspiracy theorist… but compulsory Gardisil vaccinations for all young girls seems pretty drastic and sudden to me.

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March 5, 2007 8:04 AM | Link to this

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By Brian Curtis

March 5, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

It was silly enough when the far-right nuts were opposed to sex education because “it would only embolden their sex drives.”

But now they’re willing to sacrifice public health for the sake of “not encouraging teens to have sex”?

People, how much more proof do you need? The Religious Reich is willing to sacrifice ANYTHING to stamp out sexuality. They need to form their own little Puritan colony somewhere and leave the rest of us alone.

By SusieHomeMaker

March 5, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

I wish W2W would actually REGULATE their column instead of letting it go to spam heaven; they’re running everyone away with their inattention.

Back to the subject: I have a small daughter and would like to eventually give her the vaccine — but I want to read up on it some more so I can make an informed decision before I take any action. For the Georgia Senate to mandate or even think about mandating this option is ridiculous. If the state of Georgia wants to parent my child, then they need a reality quick. This should be an individual parental decision. At this point, the drug is too new and the side effects not studied long enough for me to just jump on the bandwagon. Drug companies are NOT looking out for the welfare of your child, the PARENT is — drug companies are known to put ineffective, highly dangerous, drugs on the market (pushing them effectively through due to politics and lobbying), and we the people have to suffer because a politican chose the Drug Companies’ interest over the American People.

I say let the choice be mine to make, NOT the state’s. PS: I thought Republicans were for LESS government — why is it I keep seeing MORE government from them?

By Matthew

March 5, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

This requirement for the vaccine is merely a continuation of Corporate Ownership of America, after all, who is lobbying all the state legislatures to require the vaccine? Public health officials? I think not. I thought conservatives liked that concept of Corporations owning America and the rest of the world as well. Wait, the mention of sex as a way the HPV can be spread? DO NOT ALLOW IT (trying to sound like a conservative there, who are so uncomfortable with any mere mention of the word, “sex”),

By NetBanker

March 5, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

“now they’re willing to sacrifice public health” That seems a tad alarmist, BC, in light of the available information. 14,000 women are diagnosed with cervical cancer every year, but how many women die from it? As Jenny Grace points out it is a very slow progressing cancer that is caught early with PAP smears at annual gynecological visits. At a cost of $360 with 3 visits required it would seem that the cost/benefit ratio is out of proportion for a virus which most people’s immune systems fend off all by themselves and is sexually transmitted. The rate of death from HPV related illnesses wouldn’t seem to put it into a category of a threat to “public health.”

Were I to have a 14-16 year old daughter I’d want a lot more research before exposing her to a vaccine that is relatively new and for which no longer term studies have been done. As much as I think we receive benefits from having the FDA, they are obviously not fool proof. Is the risk to a woman’s health from HPV really all that high or do we have a pharmaceutical company creating a market for a product? I have to be somewhat suspicious of the later given their direct marketing campaign and the simple stats I’ve found after a simple google search.

According to http://virus.stanford.edu/papova/HPV.html (and I have a decent level of confidence in Stanford University’s medical research) the cancer rate is 8 per 100,000 patients. The same article also notes that most cases of HPV infection are subclinical which means that far more people carry the virus than actually have any symptoms. So what we’re really talking about is that 8 people per who know how many millions actually become diagnosed with cancer from HPV. There is also a decline (estimate at 70%) in the incidence of cervical/genital cancer as a result of PAP smears which allow early detection of abnormal cells.

All that said, what I do agree with from Shaunti’s column is the doctor’s comment that when administering the series of vaccines there is “a teachable moment to discuss risks involved with sexual activity.” If I had a daughter and I believed that the vaccine was warranted then there are 3 teachable moments over 6 months to discuss our values and to communicate. I think the underlying reason for the “potential to encourage underage sex” outcry by conservatives is a fear of talking about sex.

By Billy

March 5, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

I think I agree with NetB and Matthew here.

In all of the opposition to the vaccine from conservatives, at least the stuff I’ve read, I’ve only seen the moral arguments about it being related to sex. You know, the idea that HPV is not a risk for you if you abstain from sex.

Well, they’re right. Sort of. That whole “encourage underage sex” thing is complete BS. BTW, even though Shaunti’s an idiot, the dumbest line came from Diane: “Gardasil isn’t going to make women any more promiscuous than a condom, the birth control pill or a diaphragm.” Diane, I completely agree with you, but you do know that conservatives believe all forms of birth control encourage promiscuity, right? You do know that many on the right are opposed to all birth control because babies should always be the ultimate goal of sex? I assume so, from the “We love babies” comment. When you make an argument, you shouldn’t try to make a point that she’ll never concede to you.

Anyway, I am wholly supportive of the vaccine but completely opposed to the government mandating it. As Matt says, it’s not health-conscious elected officials trying to force it on everyone for society’s benefit but the corporate-owned politicians doing what the big money drug company tells them to do. I’m aghast at the idea of the government requiring people to give money to a particular company, and that’s what it boils down to here.

By the time I have a daughter, I’m sure there will be much more info available on the vaccine. Who knows, maybe one from another company will be available as well. I’ll probably choose to give her the vaccine when that time comes, but that’s at least ten years in the future.

For now, the government should only mandate a vaccine when the disease it prevents poses an immediate threat. (Read: hugly communicable) If a disease isn’t airborne or passed by touch or something, it doesn’t pose a threat to most people. Should we do everything possible to get rid of the disease? Sure, short of requiring a vaccine for everyone. Especially when the not insignificant amount of money goes right to a single, major drug company.

By Monica

March 5, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

For those worried about Gardasil causing more promiscuity, they could always have “double secret vaccination.” :)

Seriously, I am all for cancer prevention, but mandating a vaccine so new is drastic. Jenny Grace brings up some good points.

By Brian Curtis

March 5, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

NetB: I agree with that. There are legitimate reasons to question how this program is implemented, and whether it’s proven beneficial, who profits, etc.

But the opposition haven’t been making those arguments. Instead, they trot out the tired old “this will send the wrong message” argument that they always use whenever teenagers and sexual issues come up.

By sssssss

March 5, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Not so fast. Read this from: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Inc. A Voice for Private Physicians Since 1943

From: “AAPS Action Alert” aaps@aapsonline.org To: aaps_members@aapsonline.org Subject: Letters to the Editor Needed to Set the Record Straight on New HPVInfection Rates Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:40:54 -0700

1601 N. Tucson Blvd. Suite 9 Tucson, AZ 85716-3450 Phone: (800) 635-1196

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Inc. A Voice for Private Physicians Since 1943 Omnia pro aegroto

ACTION NEEDED!

LETTERS TO THE EDITOR NEEDED TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON NEW HPV INFECTION RATES

Merck may have abandoned its lobbying efforts for its HPV vaccine, Gardasil, but the propaganda machine is still cranking along at high speed.

The latest is a study published in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) that claims that the number of women infected with HPV is much higher than previously thought.

And while those numbers may be surprising, they are not the cause for alarm that Merck would like you to believe.

The story has been widely reported by the news media this week, but they haven’t been telling the whole story. Most of them report, correctly, that the study found that more than one-fourth of the subjects were infected with an HPV of some type.

If you only see the 25% figure, you might think one-fourth of all women are cervical cancer-bombs waiting to explode.

But what most stories are leaving out is that the same study finds that only about 2 percent of the subjects were infected with the types that are high-risk to develop into cancer.

And that only 3.4 percent were infected with the types that are targeted by the HPV vaccine.

Another conclusion of the story isn’t getting reported either – that age, marital status and the number of sexual partners are the most important risk factors.

The study also explains that “Although HPV infection is common, studies suggest approximately 90% of infections clear within 2 years.”

Let’s put the total numbers in perspective: Last year there were 9,700 new cases of cervical cancer, and 3,700 deaths. Experts say that 85% of those deaths could have been prevented with regular Pap smears. So perhaps an additional 550 deaths might have been prevented because of the vaccine.

But here are the actual infection rates reported, straight from the JAMA story:

26.8% ages 14 – 59 24.5% ages 14 –19 44.8% ages 20 – 24 27.4% ages 25 – 29 HPV-16 1.5% of women all ages HPV-18 0.8% of women all ages. HPV-6, 11, 16 and 18 3.4% of women all ages (The four types targeted by Gardasil vaccine)

IF YOUR NEWSPAPER HAS LEFT OUT THESE IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF THE STUDY, PLEASE WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR TO CLARIFY THE STUDY.

IF YOU LIVE IN A STATE WHERE THERE IS A PENDING MANDATORY VACCINE BILL, WRITE OR CALL YOUR LEGISLATORS TO EXPLAIN THE STUDY TO THEM AS WELL.

MORE INFORMATION IS POSTED AT: www.AAPSonline.org

By Lily Toad

March 5, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

The idea that vaccination that could prevent a rare form of cancer will encourage sex is ridiculous. There are many other risks of sex — AIDS, STD, pregnancy. Those risks are much greater than the risk of cervical cancer. Teenagers don’t avoid smoking because of fear of lung cancer. It’s just not an immediate threat. Has anyone known of a young person dying of cervical cancer?

By kimberly

March 5, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

I agree with SusieHomemaker and NetB. To “oppose” the vaccine on the idea that it encourages “immoral behavior” is absurd. (I asked my daughter and her friend if getting a shot at the doctor’s office makes them want to have sex, and they said “Um…Like… Eww… NO!”)

I oppose the goverment bowing to corporate lobbyists who stand to make a fortune from mandated vaccines — the long-term affects of which are still unknown. The virus is NOT highly contagious like measels or small pox, and therefore mandating the vaccine does not address an imminent threat to public health. Available? Sure! Affordable? Even better! Required? NOW who’s playing the freaking nanny state? Why.. OMYGOSH, it’s the Republicans! Imagine that.

By Joe L

March 5, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Kimberly - The virus IS highly contagious, but it’s only passed through sex. Just feel that there is a big difference between those statements.

I’m a bit torn on people who are worried about the safety of the vaccine. About the only possible problem that could arise is actually inducing HPV and consequently cervical cancer. However while it may take 10 years to develop to full cancer abnormal cells would be present within 4 years - the length of the current data.

I think the only reasonable argument I have seen so far is the CBA argument. However my concerns with even CBA is that viruses have such a great ability to thrive and mutate that while the strains that cause cancer are now a small portion, they may become a larger and more virulent portion if we do not stop the virus now.

This vaccine is really going to be most effective in third world countries where regular gynecological care is virtually non-existent. It should be pushed heavily in these areas. In America though we have large portions of our country who also do not get access to this care and this fact should not be overlooked.

By Just Being Me

March 5, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

A couple of months ago, I learned that my daughter tested positive for human papilloma virus. About a month later, she was found to have cervical cancer.

To me, this is neither a political or a religious matter. I do believe that giving this shot to teenage girls who are considering sexual activity may push them into committing sexual acts a little sooner than they might have otherwise. Obviously, my preference is that any daughter of mine remain a virgin until she marries. However, if I had to choose between my daughter getting a vaccination that “may” encourage her to have sex and my daughter not getting the vaccination that would’ve prevented her from getting cervical cancer… well, you know the rest.

I believe that if you give a condom (or Gardisil) to a girl who has decided not to have sex until she marries, that condom won’t make a difference. At least it didn’t for me. If you give a condom to a girl who has decided she’s ready to have sex, she’ll probably use it. If you give a condom to a girl who isn’t sure whether she wants to, it may or may not push her toward hopping in the bed a little sooner than she otherwise would.

But again, I’d much rather have my baby girl be safe than sorry.

And another thing, if the vaccine is given to 9-year-olds, it’s likely that they won’t even know what it’s for. How many of us actually knew what those TB shots were for when we were children? Heck, I was grown before I knew what tuberculosis was.

By kimberly

March 5, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Whoa… If you think an STD is “highly contagious,” then you must have a FABULOUS sex life! (How many people did you endanger this weekend?) In my mind, “highly contagious” is something you can get by sitting next to someone at work or school, by touching what they touch, or by breathing air they just sneezed into. These diseases warrant action for public safety. Am I the only one who can go DAYS without the imminent hazards of sex? Haha!

That being said, I’m not “against” the vaccine; I’m not “against” protecting children. I am “against” the LEGISLATURE telling an entire state full of parents that we HAVE to pay nearly $300 per girl child for a brand new vaccine, the long-term affects of which (on a growing child, no less) are not known. Peach Care has just been slashed. How DARE they mandate something that costs so much, on the “advice” of the corporations that stand to profit? Where’s the big government push to make pap smears and mammograms available for everyone? Please. Make it available and affordable, and encourage it. Beyond that, it’s intrusion.

Just Being Me, I hope your daughter is all better soon!

By Just Being Me

March 5, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Darn. I got so caught up in blabbing off that I forgot to state my stance on the issue at hand. I do NOT think the vaccine should be government-mandated, but I think it should be highly recommended and offered as a standard vaccine at annual physical exams/check-ups.

Basically, I agree with what Kimberly said: make it available and affordable, and encourage it. Beyond that, it really is an unnecessary intrusion.

By SusieHomeMaker

March 5, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

JBM: I’m so sorry to hear that!!! My prayers will be with you and your daughter from now on.

JoeL: Like I said before, I would like some more extensive long term studies done on this vaccine BEFORE it’s given to my child. I would like more answers and not just take the Drug Companies word for it that all is well.

Here’s a list of other “wonder” drugs that have been pulled off the market after being taken by millions:

Phen-Phen, Crestor, Baycol (cerivastatin), one of the cholesterol-lowering statin drugs; Propulsid (cisapride), a nighttime heartburn drug; and Seldane (terfenadine), one of the early non-sedating antihistamines; antidiabetic drug called phenformin, plus many more.

PAUL SELIGMAN, MD, MPH, Dir, Office of Drug Safety, FDA: At the time a drug is approved, we don’t have all the information that we would like to have.

By SusieHomeMaker

March 5, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Where’s the big government push to make pap smears and mammograms available for everyone? Please. Make it available and affordable, and encourage it. Beyond that, it’s intrusion.

FINALLY!! The truth! I hope the boys down at the legislature recognizes that!!!

By NetBanker

March 5, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

“How many of us actually knew what those TB shots were for when we were children?” Good point, JBM! (Hey! ~waving~ It’s been a while…hope you’re doing OK)

Who says that what the shot series is for has to be explained to the kids anyway or at what level of detail? The parents are the ones giving consent so why not let them control the message to the children. It could be as simple as “This shot will help you avoid getting cancer when you get older.”

By Roger

March 5, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

Simple issue here, Government has no business mandating the vaccine. It isn’t a public heath risk. You both are way off base. Make it available but not mandatory!

By Joe L

March 5, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

“Whoa… If you think an STD is “highly contagious,” then you must have a FABULOUS sex life! (How many people did you endanger this weekend?) In my mind, “highly contagious” is something you can get by sitting next to someone at work or school, by touching what they touch, or by breathing air they just sneezed into.”

No being highly contagious means that it’s easily contracted WHEN EXPOSED to the pathogen. What you are trying to say is whether something is easily contracted - which entails both ease of exposure and contagion. You may call it splitting hairs, but I think that if you say HPV is NOT highly contagious you are conveying some bad connotations.

It’s highly misleading to compare a vaccine to drugs. A vaccine is merely an exposure to a pathogen (sometimes the actual disease agent sometimes not) that causes you immune system to recognize and destroy it. The worst side effects of any vaccine is actually causing the disease.

Sorry but HPV IS a public health risk. The only argument is how much of a risk versus the cost of prevention and whether or not we should stop the disease now before it does become a higher risk.

By Last1withMorals

March 5, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

Where is the moral issue here? You don’t sleep with multiple people. Descent people don’t have to worry about STDs. If you are to a point where you know you are going to be intimate with someone than you should know the caliber and character of that person to be able to know you are not at risk. In the my circle of friends and family NO ONE has had or is likely to ever have an STD. You reap what you sew…If you don’t want an STD don’t be a tramp! That simple. Society deeply saddens me. Personal pride has gone out the window in favor of skankyness being cool.

By Mara

March 5, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

funny thing is…in this case, “mandatory” doesn’t actually mean “you are hereby ordered to do this under threat of punishment”. There is the same “opt-out” feature for parents on this vaccine as there is on every other “required” vaccine.

Another point to ponder, if your child isn’t vaccinated before she comes in contact with the virus, it does no good. She could be abstinent until the day she marries, but that won’t protect her if her husband is a carrier. Isn’t it far better to prevent the cancer than to hope your now-grown daughter thinks to protect herself before her wedding night? Hmmmm?

JBM - you have my sincere sympathy for what you and your daughter are going through. A huge cyberhug for you…<<<<<<>>>>>

By Monica

March 5, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

funny thing is…in this case, “mandatory” doesn’t actually mean “you are hereby ordered to do this under threat of punishment”. There is the same “opt-out” feature for parents on this vaccine as there is on every other “required” vaccine.

True, but you can’t attend public school without showing proof of immunizations. I wonder if not having this one would prevent girls from going to school, as with no measles shot?

By Joe L

March 5, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Monica - For required immunizations there is an opt-out option for parents who object on moral or religious grounds. So no child will be prevented from attending schools if parents object on these grounds.

By Mara

March 5, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

You reap what you sew…

such stupidity. Seamstresses deserve protection too! (sicker, snicker)

Descent people don’t have to worry about STDs

cuz they’re goin’ DOWN!!!!

As usual, the idiots come out of the woodwork. Sheesh. People never lie about STDs to prospective partners or to their families…what a tool!

By Mara

March 5, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Monica - good question…

JoeL - good answer. :^)

By Chester916

March 5, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

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By The Blogfer Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

It looks like Diane and Shaunti got the spam under control—good job! The board is hopping today!

So you can all breathe easier, I’m involved with a new project and won’t be blogging anymore. I noticed a few Dog wannabes last week and today—Just be aware that they are cheap imitators, and not the real McCoy. Please don’t pull a “Chilao” and blame the wrong person, ok?

Wish me luck—I’m going back to HMC to become a math professor. Best of luck to all of you in your endeavors.

By Akagi

March 5, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

The issue is not whether or not the vaccine will prevent some strains of the virus that causes cervical cancer. The issue is should an employee of Waffle House (that being Senator Balfour) be in the position to force parents to give their children a vaccine that has been on the market only a few months and produced by a company that has produced unsafe products in the past—Vioxx.

Balfour’s motives are clearly based on who funds him—that being Merck. Do you trust an accountant from Waffle House that graduated from a university that has claimed the Pope is the Anti-Christ and barred its students from interracial dating or a giant corporation that lied about its products in the past?

I don’t. If parents want their daughters to have this vaccine, fine. But don’t force the rest of us to be lab rats of Merck or unwilling victims of Don Balfour’s campaign contributors. I thought he GOP was for a smaller and less intrusive government. I guess I was wrong in this regard.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Why is no one calling this what it is??? Why are people unable to understand that HPV causes GENITAL WARTS? This is a life long disease that has no cure. No you don’t die from it but the emotion and social effects are devastating to most people. Why isn’t any one saying what this vaccine is really preventing???

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Quick question for the road—What is so terrible about shame? When I read the Lib ladies’ comments, it appears that they believe that shame is a far greater threat to womankind, than deadly STDs (or even unwanted pregnancies). Why is that? A world without shame is a dangerous place.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Are the politicians too scared to say Genital Wart? Who would ever want their child to contract a disease that they will deal with or take medication for the rest of their life? Isn’t that worth a measly $300+/-??? As NetBanker said “According to http://virus.stanford.edu/papova/HPV.html (and I have a decent level of confidence in Stanford University’s medical research)” This is what the web site said “Genital warts are, perhaps, the most common disease manifestation of HPV.” Maybe the Fundies think that STDs are some sort of punishment for amoral behavior but normal, thinking people should understand that you are standing in the way of a vaccine that prevents disease. Are the politicians too scared to say Genital Wart? Who would ever want their child to contract a disease that they will deal with or take medication for the rest of their life? Isn’t that worth a measly $300+/-??? As NetBanker said “According to http://virus.stanford.edu/papova/HPV.html (and I have a decent level of confidence in Stanford University’s medical research)” This is what the web site said “Genital warts are, perhaps, the most common disease manifestation of HPV.” Maybe the Fundies think that STDs are some sort of punishment for amoral behavior but normal, thinking people should understand that you are standing in the way of a vaccine that prevents disease. I am surprised any woman (Mother/daughter/or friend) would be against this.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Sorry didn’t mean to double post

By Lily Toad

March 5, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

No, genital warts can be cured with a few treatments. Not the same as herpes.

By Lily Toad

March 5, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Good luck and good bye, Dogg.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

Mara GREAT comment at 1:53pm. My best Friend waited a year to have sex with her now husband. They both got tested for STDs and AIDS before they consummated their relationship. Both tested negative for everything. Well 3 months after they consummated the relationship she had a huge Herpes out break. Well turns out he had it but in such a low level the Herpes simplex test did not detect it. So now she has to manage her out breaks and may not be able to give birth normally. Does she love her hubby any less? NO. Is she a slut? No. People can be so judgmental when it isn’t them or their family/friends.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Some possible future W2W topics:

What separates humans from the rest of the animals?

Does taboo have a rightful place in society?

Is taboo rightfully applied to sexuality?

To me, debating about specific “medical procedures” is a waste of time if the underlying moral issues aren’t discussed first.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Lily. Hope things go your way, you’re a good lady.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

From http://www.genital-warts-hpv.com/ :

There are over 70 different types of HPV but few genital wart treatments. Genital warts are most frequently caused by HPV-6 and HPV-11. Different strains of HPV also cause common warts, plantar warts, and flat warts. HPV-16 and HPV-18 have been associated with cancer of the cervix and, rarely, penile cancer. Once the virus has infected an individual, it is considered to be a permanent infection of the skin. Although the visible lesions can be treated and will resolve, the remaining normal appearing skin has been shown to still contain the virus. This is called a latent infection when the virus is not visible, but is found in the skin using an electron microscope. Ninety percent of cervical cancers have detectable HPV within them. Genital warts can be transmitted from the mother to the child during childbirth. Occasionally, the child will develop the warts on his or her larynx. This may not become apparent for years. Infants and children may be affected while they are being bathed or changed. The incubation period after exposure to this virus can be from several weeks to several years. HPV is highly contagious. Over 80% of sexual partners will develop the infection after exposure to an infected individual.

By lozen

March 5, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

JBM, I am so sorry to hear this about your family. I wish you the very best outcome. I know you have the strength to deal with it.

By Another question

March 5, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

If you were CEO of a pharmacutical company making scads of cash on life long maintenance drugs for the most popular sexually transmitted disease with no cure, would you even think about funding research for a cure? Curing something, or even vacinating might have profit short term but wipe out that profit in one generation. One pill a day for life means huge profit for life. Well would you?

By Lily Toad

March 5, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

Good point, Another Question. Why sixth grade girls? Why not older teenagers? Also, why isn’t there a vaccine for boys? I’ve heard that Gardasil may work for males, also.

By lozen

March 5, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

“Where is the moral issue here?” There is no moral issue here. This is a discussion about health. What exactly is skankyness? Can both men and women, in your humble opinion, be skanky? Can men be tramps, or does that only apply to women?

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

To Another Question: That is why I can not understand the hysteria against this vaccine. Does everyone think the Mayor in TX is in Merk’s pocket too? This is a VACCINE so people don’t ever have to deal with this. The drug company may make money at first but they aren’t marketing something that people will need over and over and over. This could relieve medical cost for tax payers in the future. This could relieve many, many people huge amounts of mental aguish.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Lily Toad: Why not sixth grade girls? There are hordes of studies showing huge amounts of sexual activity in Middle School. Surely you don’t think kinds only have sex in High School. Older teenagers are more likely to already have been exposed, making the vaccine ineffective. And I agree with the others on the board why do you have to explain the full ramifications of a shot to the child? Why isn’t there a birth control pill for boys? The world ain’t fair and we women have to sometimes pick up the slack. But isn’t it great there is SOMETHING now? Maybe there will be a vaccine for boys too someday.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Curing something, or even vacinating might have profit short term but wipe out that profit in one generation.

In all due respect, Another question, I think that you along with most of the bloggers here are barking up the wrong tree in your misguided belief that the “answer” to medical maladies involving viruses and bacteria will be found in a laboratory one day. Not only can we not “kill” most of the present day viruses and bacteria plaguing us, there will be many more “new” ones plaguing us in the future, ones far worse than anything we’ve seen yet. One day we will long for the “good old days” when all we had to worry about was HIV and the ebola virus.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

lozen—all health issues ultimately involve consideration of “healthy” behavior vs. “unhealthy” behavior. It’s about behavior, not laboratories and vaccinations. Consider this: All known STDs could be wiped out in a generation if no one born after a certain date had sex with someone born before that date. It would cost absolutely no money at all to accomplish this.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

As for the question regarding “skankyness”, which a different blogger wrote about earlier today, it’s a fact that women are far more susceptible to STDs than men due to simple anatomy. As such, the burden will naturally fall on women to be the “gatekeepers” regarding sex. Therefore, it makes sense to apply taboos to women that men don’t have to endure. Maybe that’s “unfair”, but it all evens out in the end.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

What balances out the burden of the extra taboos women are subject to regarding sex is the fact that whatever is rare becomes valuable. We men usually have to pay the “gatekeeper” in one way or another in the long run.

By Akagi

March 5, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Well. We know Mr. Waffle House (aka Senator Balfour) is in Merck’s pocketbook. We also know that Merck lobbied (aka bribed) very hard many state houses to get this vaccine mandated by law. Once there was an outcry they dropped their efforts.

Again. If people want to turn their children into Merck lab rats, fine by me. What I am against is idiots that work for Waffle House using the power of the state to mandate this.

And since Mr. Balfour partly represents that cesspool known as Gwinnett, I’d think he’d have more important issues to focus on. Whether a child gets a vaccine to prevent a virus that is not passed by causal contact can rightfully be decided by the parents, not some petty tyrant from Snellville.

By Another question

March 5, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

Nobody answered. If you were president of a company that made billions selling herpes medicine that people take every day to keep from having outbreaks, would you approve funds for research for a cure or even sell the cure if you had it, when you know it will keep giving and giving and giving you profits? It doesn’t kill like HPV causes cancer but its so inconvenient people pay and pay and pay. Would you? Do you think you would keep your job if you did?

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

To the Blogger Formerly know as DOG: You’re a Moron and Sexist! It is everyone’s personal responsibility to be the ‘gatekeepers’ of their OWN sexuality. Regardless of gender. As to your other nonsensical question about shame; Shame shuts down dialog and inhibits knowledge. If you are ashamed of something you are unlikely to ask more questions and become more informed about that subject. And in my humble opinion anything that inhibits the quest for knowledge is a bad thing.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

Hey Akagi—Would it outrage you to know that pharmaceutical companies give MDs payments each month based on the volume of certain drugs they prescribed? Well, that’s how it’s done, my friend. In other fields, this practice would be known as “giving a kickback”, but somehow it remains legal.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Why Why WHY??—Certainly there is a downside to shame. I never said there wasn’t. My point is that the alternative is worse, as we have found out the past thirty years.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Akagi: “Once there was an outcry they stopped” Why is this a bad thing? I am not naive and I know that drug companies exist to make (TONS) of money but what if, just if, Merck knew they had something good for people and stopped lobbing so there would not be all this negative press attached. There are many groups that lobby and don’t stop that practice over public outcry. Another question: I am sure the makers of the polio vaccine made money selling that product, but are they the bad guys? In hindsight this may be something that is a huge heath benefit for society.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

Nobody answered. If you were president of a company that made billions selling herpes medicine that people take every day to keep from having outbreaks, would you approve funds for research for a cure or even sell the cure if you had it, when you know it will keep giving and giving and giving you profits?

Another question: Call me a radical, but I’m not waiting around for drug companies to make me healthy. I’m responsible for my own health through my own behavior choices.

By The Blogger Formerly Known As DOG

March 5, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

Parting is such sweet sorrow. Do me a favor Libs: Try a little harder to see both sides of an issue, will ya? Ultimately, most of you are even more dogmatic than chuck.

P.S. I wonder if it’s just a coincidence that both Chilao and chuck are missing today. Are they on a date together? I hope they both remembered their vaccines.

By Lobertron

March 5, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

So, you see, you have a catcher, and he is at one end. And then you have the pitcher at the other end. Now some would say that it is unfair that the catcher has to wear all that padding while the pitcher is hanging free and easy. Some will argue that it takes two to pitch the ball in this instance, and so they both should have protective gear and share equal responsibility.

Some people just like to yell about how unfair the world is. Maybe these “some people” should not be playing ball if you find it so unfair. That, or get with the reality of the game.

By Why Why WHY???

March 5, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

BullSh-t Dog. That is you and the Christian Right justifying your right to judge others. You’re not god or better than anyone else, so get over yourself. There are studies proving there was just as much premarital sex in the 50’s as there is now. Only difference is people where made to feel ashamed of it. So they didn’t tell anyone and went to visit their grandmother for 6 months to have their baby. We have come a long way in the last 30 years any anyone who doesn’t see that is, hmmmm, let me see…a MORON and a SEXIST!

By Another question

March 5, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

People responded, but no one answered the question. What incentive does the financial director of the pharmacutical maker have to cure something that brings in big profits to maintain it but does not kill anybody and you can always blame the person who got it on their own behavior? If you were president of the company, who’s job depends on profits, would you? Yes or no?

By SusieHomeMaker

March 6, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

What incentive does the financial director of the pharmacutical maker have to cure something that brings in big profits to maintain it but does not kill anybody and you can always blame the person who got it on their own behavior?

None

If you were president of the company, who’s job depends on profits, would you? Yes or no?

Yes. Why? Because my conduct is governed by a higher power.

By Lyrazel

March 6, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

I cannot buy into the argument that this vaccine would cause anklebiters to act any less promiscuous than their parents were at that age.

Ok, no its not in the interest of states to have policy to mandate vaccines UNLESS the state wants to open itself to programs that allow low income children to receive vaccinations to comply with state law for inoculations for school. We live in a world without smallpox, polio and diseases like measles and scarlet fever are almost non-existant. Influenza has not been in epidemic since I was a child.

We also live in a world where the marketing of pills, the escalation of prescriptions given to 3-year olds to help with a bi-polar diagnosis from a doctor who sees a patient for less than 13 minutes is a reality. We have seen the 5-year FDC choke before approving morning-after pills and yet release prescriptions with deadly side-effects without a blip of caution. We have seen HMOs decide what doctor we can/cant see or what treatments we can/cannot have. As a consumer we as a nation do not know who to trust anymore and this is possibly the biggest question about mandatory unproven vaccinations we are voicing. So my guess is your HMO/PPO probably will not cover this vaccine (it stiffs women any way possible)—why worry?

I do wonder how states that cut budgets for people needing medical services can make a mandatory requirement for a vaccine WITHOUT (and this is so stupid, stupid, stupid) WITHOUT NEGOTIATING A PRICE WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY—for say—billions less for their citizens.

Why is it no state is negotiating a price/inoculation for its citizens to receive this vaccine and just letting the company charge what it wants—yet expecting tax payers to pay the ludicrous price of full market value when we taxpayers ALREADY PAID for research and development by tax-breaks and grants to pharmaceutical companies. This lack of negotiation is possibly the biggest problem in state-funded health care. We know buy in bulk saves $$$—why cannot a state buy in bulk lots? Why cant the government big as it is, settle Merck, Lily, Pfizer down at the table and say: We have 12 million people, 2 million girls and we want a good price on these vaccines*?

Its wink wink as usual politics.

By Rose

March 6, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

I loved Diane’s sarcastic comment “Sex kills. Don’t do it (but have babies, we like babies).” So many issues today, including the vaccination issue, are about the Right verses the Left. Enlightening story - my mother works at an anti-abortion clinic and tells impoverished, unmarried, uneducated women with multiple children that they should abstain from sex until someone marries them. My mother, who is still married to the man she saved herself for, hasn’t had sex in a decade!

It’s all about that “evil” thing called sex. We Lefties have to keep fighting for the intelligent distribution of information, regardless of the religious fundamentalists’ obsession with sex. (or the lack of it) ;)

By Whatever

March 6, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

If you want your child to have the vaccine, fine. I don’t. As many folks have said- the long term effects are not known. My daughter is seven years old, and there is no way I am going to allow the state to tell me that I should vaccinate her against a disease when they really don’t know what could happen to these girls ten years down the road.

Please stop with the holier than thou reason. No matter what they come up with if I do my job as a parent, my daughter won’t be promiscuous.

Heart disease kills more people than cervical cancer…. why not vaccinate against hamburgers? Whatever.

By Valeria Palmer

March 6, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Ms. Feldhahn seems fixated on abstinence through ignorance and fear.

But I’ll make the comment to her that I made to my mother who was groping around the same notion “What if the girl is chaste, but marries a boy who wasn’t.” “What if a girl is chaste and is raped by a carrier of HPV?” Voluntary absinence doesn’t prevent those sorts of risks.

Only a few kids who catch measles go blind or develop heart problems or die from it, but we still vaccinate because we can.

I hope my niece gets the vaccine, not because I expect her to be sexually active, but because there’s no point in risking her life and health by not vaccinating her against something that is now becoming preventable.

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

I’m going totally off topic for this post, but after hearing the news this morning I just had to share a local Lilburn story that most will never hear and seems just silly to a librul like me. The mayor worked with the city council to ban all non-passive activities in bars/restaurants after a recent Texas Hold ‘em tournament. This effectively limits patrons to conversations and watching television. They believe it’s “ok to have a glass of wine or drink with dinner,” but didn’t want any “honkey tonks” because they bring crime. The mayor also acknowledged that there were no incidents of crime associated with the poker playing. The ban is an expansion on a previously passed prohibition on playing pool in bars. I suppose this all makes sense in Lilburn in light of the lessons learned over in River City that were so important they were brought to stage in 1957 and later film in 1962…”it’s trouble with capital ‘T which rhymes with P which stands for Pool!”

And now back to the topic after this short break to explore the bizarre world of conservative politics interfering with local commercial establishments and telling people what is morally good (or bad) for them such as playing pool….

By Lyrazel

March 6, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

NetBanker: Karaoke leads to promiscuous sex and drug use. It is almost banned in China with the same kind of law being karaoke clubs cannot serve liquor. Lilburn has every right to make communist Chinese officials feel welcome in their community…

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

Hey NetB! How are you and yours? Yes, I too wonder about these “conservatives” who keep changing the definition. “If you make up a new law, you’re a socialist. If we do it, we’re _……. ” What the heck ARE they anyway?

Good one, Lyrazel! Haha! Question, though: How do the karaoke singers imagine they’re any good without the required 2-drink prerequisite? Now THAT’s cruel!

By Brian Curtis

March 6, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

NetB: Does that mean you can’t play trivia contests either? Bizarre.

By deidreNC

March 6, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

so—-you get your daughter (aged 9-whatever) the vaccine-when shes 25 and decides to have kids—oh no-the vaccine was found to cause severe (or even not so severe) reproduction problems-my daughters pediatrician wanted me to put her on an asthma med that is taken EVERY DAY-she has asthma attacks maybe 4 times a year and usually when she is sick with other respirotory issues-the warnings on that med were something to the effect of-there hadnt been studies done on preadolescent kids to know if the med caused problems with reproduction….her doc was really gung ho that she take this med and we had words over the issue—(she never took the meds)-thats when i first knew that doctors must get a kick back from pharm companies-what a crock…i will not have this vaccine for my daughter just because the gov says she has to..thats ridiculous

By lozen

March 6, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

Rose, loved your story this morning at 9:22. It must be easy to tell others not to have sex when you don’t enjoy sex or have never experienced passion. I am becoming more and more convinced this is the big, basic difference between those on the left and those on the right. It all comes down to whether or not you can experience pleasure in your life. Those who can do. Those who can’t want to make darn sure nobody else does!

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

“so—-you get your daughter (aged 9-whatever) the vaccine-when shes 25 and decides to have kids—oh no-the vaccine was found to cause severe (or even not so severe) reproduction problems”

Sigh there’s nothing more annoying than people making statements who have little understanding of basic biology and physiology. The absolute worst problem that could arise from Gardasil is the development (instead of prevention) of cervical cancer. However in 4 years abnormal cells would have shown themselves in the studies that were performed. And even if they had that does not necessarily indicate the it will advance to full blown cancer.

People are ignorantly comparing apples and oranges when they worry about “long term” effects of this vaccine and bring up DRUGS that had issues.

Yes why listen to anyone who knows more than you do on a subject about what is correct. Hell why listen to the government about food safety or the speed limit or pollution.

By T Gordan

March 6, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Since this not a public health issue. The state should not have the right to mandate the vaccine. Parents should have the right to decide since they will ultimately be the ones paying for the vaccine and dealing with any side effects. The government is good and legislating without paying and being accountable for their decisions.

By illuminusluna

March 6, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Ok, sorry guys but I don’t comment very much but really do enjoy reading the debates!

I am 34 and when at age 17 I contracted HPV. My Mom didn’t really want me to be having sex but I was going to no matter what cause we had been together for awhile and I really WANTED too! She did the responsible thing and had the condom conversasion and also put me on the pill (all the while disapproving). Well, being the stupid teenager I was we had condom less sex and at my very first pap smear no too long after it came back abnormal!

After a very uncomfortable biopsy I was informed I had precancer cells in my cervix and had to under go a very painful laser surgery to remove the cells.
I feel about this vaccine as I do all the others—why not protect your child from a painful procedure or even worse the removal of her reproductive organs(or worse) if left undetected becasue of some misplaced conception of morality.

I agree whole harderly w/ the opinion above by the OB/GYN about needing to get all the facts and feel nervous about such a new vaccine being made mandatory for girls as young as 9. I don’t have a daughter (got a son) but I would be having her vaccinated at around 11 or 12. The fact is no matter how much we may not want them too there are many teenagers who want to have sex.

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel…well of course it does. The only way most people will ever sing karoake is if they’ve used drugs or alcohol. Anyone f*cked up enough to sing is mostly assuredly not in a condition to make the right decision about sexual partners either. LOL! I’ve never really thought about someone wearing karaoke-goggles in a bar. hehehe

Hey Kimberly! We’re doing pretty well considering we’re both exiting our 30’s next week. YIKES! How did that number get here so darn fast? How are things with you?

I just don’t get the so-called conservatives or Republicans these days. They’re straying soooooo far from the principal of less government intrusion into personal and corporate lives unless absolutely necessary. The wholesale banning of legal activities in establishments that sell alcohol really goes overboard in that they’re affecting businesses (what about those all wonderful market forces?) and individuals. They’ve all gone mad, I tell you!! Same argument applies to Sunday alcohol sales.

By SusieHomeMaker

March 6, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

why listen to anyone who knows more than you do on a subject about what is correct.

You mean like the DRUG companies? Perhaps we should listen to them…….I mean they’ve never steered us wrong before, right?

Hell why listen to the government about food safety or the speed limit or pollution.

You mean the same government who now say that Cloned meat is OK to eat? THAT government?

By BlueMoon

March 6, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Let’s hear it for Jenny Grace because both columnists are sadly missing the point.

The only reason this is an issue is because Merck has big pocketbooks and the politicians know it. Merck is in essence buying a market for their drug as opposed to extended clinical trials on the correct test subjects.

But hey, it’s a drug company and most of America is highly medicated now anyway. What’s one more mandatory drug we have to take and put into our bodies?

Obesity and infertility at all time highs (in the modern era) and yet we’re still wondering what the effects of drugs, hormones and pesticides have on us. Maybe it’s just shame on us.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

“Since this not a public health issue”

Really? So the public health agencies shouldn’t track STD’s and warn potentially exposed partners? Exactly how is this not a public health issue? Any easily transmitted disease - particularly one that is widespread and very often asymptomatic - is clearly a public health issue.

Illumin - The unfortunate fact is that HPV can still be transmitted when condoms are used. That’s one of the main reasons nearly 50% of sexually active people will contract HPV in their lifetime. Anything we can do to diminish these numbers should be viewed as a positive.

By GaNative

March 6, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Never leave something like this in the hands of the government. With the things the U.S. Government has done to people in the past, what’s to stop them from putting some type of sterilization in the vaccine? IT’S A BAD THING.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

“You mean like the DRUG companies? Perhaps we should listen to them…….I mean they’ve never steered us wrong before, right?”

No I mean like people who have taken science beyond HS biology. Because most of the comments from people who are “apprehensive” show a sheer lack of knowledge of human physiology.

What’s wrong with cloned meat? Absolutely nothing. Just more fear of anything new. You’ve been eating “cloned” vegetables for centuries.

By Mara

March 6, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

T Gordan - The state should not have the right to mandate the vaccine. Parents should have the right to decide…

(sigh) once again…the parents DO have the right to decide. As with other “mandatory” innoculations, there is an OPT-OUT clause in the directive. If a parent doesn’t want to have their child protected, all they need to do is fill out a form.

Re: Lilburns idiotic ban on fun in bars - no cards, no karaoke, no pool, video, or fooseball. And definitly NO trivia contests. You will sit in that bar and drink. That is ALL you will do. The ajc article on the issue finishes with this rather telling little bit though, “Joe Chao, owner of the Oyster Barn Grill & Bar, said he has gotten the message from the city. He is pulling his pool tables and video games. He said, however, that state-operated lottery games still will be permitted. “I’m trying to be more like a family business,” he said before adding, with a smile, “We’re going to start keno next month.”

Jeez. No wonder the rest of the country thinks the entire South is made of of igner’nt yokels.

By m

March 6, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Here’s something to think about re: costs/benefits of the vaccine: I take it most of you have not had to deal with follow up testing, etc for displaysia after a pap exam. While it may go away after subsequent visits, the individual will probably need a biopsy done-not comfortable and not cheap- lab/dr fees cost me about $200 even with insurance- and who knows how much if they determine that they need to remove precancerous cells. after all this, you can go every 3 months for a follow up exam (~$30 copay*3 extra exams in addition to your annual exam=$90), and you’re most likely above $300 anyway.

In addition to the cost, you/your child will have to experience the anxiety about what their test results may be, the uncomfortable and this is putting it gently nature of the procedures done, and the constant wondering if things will be allright after all of the procedures. If the possiblity of going through this can be minimized, I think all the better!

By Hegelian

March 6, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Let’s see— Merck now makes a VACCINE that costs $$$ and wants to make it mandatory with the force of law— nice potential cash cow to fend off the upcoming losses from Vioxx== Ohh, and that law passed by Congress that protects vaccine makers from lawsuits is sure helpful. No wonder Merck has targeted the vaccine market. Make a product that consumers can’t sue you over when it harms them…NICE. What’s in the vaccine? It is the first one to contain Genetically modified ingredients, and aluminum. Not exactly nutritious stuff. Wake up— Corporate influence on government to pass laws that incubate them from public redress is essentially Fascism or as Mussolini stated “corporatism”— HELLO…

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

“Never leave something like this in the hands of the government. With the things the U.S. Government has done to people in the past, what’s to stop them from putting some type of sterilization in the vaccine? IT’S A BAD THING.”

First step away from the internet slowly. The black helicopters are not circling overhead.

Second, it’s a private company not the government doing the vaccine. The government is merely deciding if it should be required for school attendance.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

“It is the first one to contain Genetically modified ingredients, and aluminum.”

Care to cite a reliable source for this info? Not accusing you of anything I would just like to read the actual facts before commenting. However “genetically modified”? You do realize that tons of medical products are “genetically modified” and that’s a good thing?

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

So after some research you are correct and incorrect about the ingredients of the vaccine. Yes it does contain an aluminum compound. However 25-30% of current vaccines also contain the same sorts of compounds. It’s a necessary component of making the antigen proteins take the correct forms.

Also it’s not the “first” vaccine to use “genetically modified” ingredients. This is a recombinant DNA product. We have used these techniques for a long time to cause microorganisms (in this case yeast) to produce substances normally produced by or a component of other organisms. For instance insulin is produced in this manner today. For viral vaccines we have the yeast produce the same proteins that compose the outer shell of the virus thus enabling our immune system to recognize and attack the actual pathogen.

So the apprehension you wish to create by using these facts is greatly misleading and overblown.

By CD

March 6, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Did you know there’s a vaccine database in Georgia that keeps personal information on all of your kids without your permission or knowledge? (called the Georgia Registry of Immunization with the Department of Health). It has your kid’s social security number, health insurance history, race, age, etc. The question is when this database will be broken into for identity fraud. Or when this country turn into a police state, when people will go door to door to forcibly inject your kids. Who knows whether one day, when you refuse Guardisil, you’ll be put on a no fly list or in a detention camp or something. Anyway, this is just a step in the direction where all medical records will be electronic and everyone will be microchipped and identified like cattle.

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t excess aluminum in the body contribute to the development of other diseases? Cancer? Alzheimer’s? Parkinson’s? Just curious.

By Stephanie

March 6, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

This is another good example of how my Daddy has said for years, “This country will be eventually become Communist.” The idea to be told that our daughters have to get the vaccination is ridiculous. We are not robots, we are humans with a voice. Why don’t the government put their demands upon the people that keep breeding and continue to stay on welfare. Don’t worry about the girls, because it is not like the Government is going to be there for them if/when they really need them.

By Margaret

March 6, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Until you have been on the phone with your gynecologist discussing the results of your pap smear - which includes a possile hpv infection you can keep quiet. I got that when I was married and the diagnosis was after I had no infections ever over 15+ years of pap tests. My husband was unfaithful. Why should I be punished because my husband decided to fool around? I was not unfaithful - my ex decided he would rather be homosexual. GIVE EVERYONE THE VACCINE - DON’T BLAME THE VICTIM!

By deidreNC

March 6, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

JOE-there is no way you or anyone else can positively say that there will definately not be reprucussions years later from this vaccine…there may not be and that will be great…i for one do not trust drug companies OR lots of doctors-i teach my daughter to use all kinds of saftey precautions to prevent STDs and pregnancy and i hope shes smart enough to listen. if she wants to make the decision (after reading all the info there is about this vaccine) to have it then i will let her…but no way is the gov going to make her have it. thats ridiculous-i cant understand why flu shots are not mandatory when so many people die from the flu and it is SO MUCH more contagious…doesnt make sense to me.

By WWW???

March 6, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

Why all the Chicken Little stuff? Every single person on this blog has had a ‘Forced/Government Mandated’ injection. If you went to public school you had it. Now none of you or your parents went marching on Washington over it. It prevents disease. It helps the general population. I really thought that the liberals on this blog would be more on board with something that is really a good concept for women.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

“Doesn’t excess aluminum in the body contribute to the development of other diseases? Cancer? Alzheimer’s? Parkinson’s? Just curious.”

There’s been a lot of suspicion around environmental aluminum for a while. For a time there was talk of how Alzheimer’s patients showed elevated levels of aluminum but the science really isn’t bearing it out so far. Alzheimer’s is looking more and more likely to be an autoimmune disease although that doesn’t completely rule out a role for an outside trigger.

If we want to talk about the dangers of all uses/ingestion of aluminum it’s a valid concern. I just find it interesting that many people have no concerns with other vaccines that are relatively new (or not) but as soon as it involves sex there’s an uproar.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t excess aluminum in the body contribute to the development of other diseases? Cancer? Alzheimer’s? Parkinson’s? Just curious.

The truth, kimberly, is that many of our common products contain “heavy metals”, which slowly toxify our bodies. Unfortunately, the government agencies which determine “safe levels” of these toxins are run by geniuses like Joe L who never met a toxic metal they didn’t love.

By deidreNC

March 6, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

im not sure-but it could be the fact that only females are the ones being tarteted here-men also carry the virus. thats not my concern but it could be one reason for the ‘uproar’. as far as other vaccines-there were some i didnt get for my kids-some i did-im sure i had all the ones we had to get as my parents probably never thought of questioning the need. other vaccines are for so much more contagious diseases-measles-mumps-polio etc…diseases you can get just from breathing or touching an infected person. if they mandated the flu vaccine i would have no problem with that-in fact i make my kids get one each year. they have a lot more chance of getting the flu and getting very sick from that.

By WWW???

March 6, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

DeidreNC: There are repercussions from every decision we make in life. The question is do the risks outweigh the benefits. As the women here have said, doesn’t a pin prick and maybe $300 outweigh a painful medical procedure, an STD, a biopsy, numerous exams and medical bills and…..on and on. We don’t get TB, we don’t get Measles or Mumps b/c the government says we have the technology to PREVENT them. You can scream your head off about the drug companies and a Communist state but it isn’t rational. If you are so concerned with being the best parent for your child why would you allow your daughter to catch a disease she doesn’t have to catch?

By MrRogers

March 6, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

“JOE-there is no way you or anyone else can positively say that there will definately not be reprucussions years later from this vaccine…”

No I said the only repercussions are development of the disease itself. And actually after further research that is even impossible. This vaccine does not use attenuated (weakened) virus it is just the proteins that compose the outer shell of the virus. Other than the risk that efficacy will diminish over time or the slight possibility (as discussed above) that it will be another source of environmental aluminum there is virtually nothing else that can happen.

The HUGE difference with flu is that strains change constantly and it is caused by different viruses. HPV is not the same in this respect at all. Also only people who are immunocompromised are at risk of dying from the flu. And those people should be vaccinated. However vaccinating everyone for the flu would indeed by a waste.

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

You will sit in that bar and drink Well Mara they DID go to a bar so by golly we’re gonna make sure they drink!! I think it is hilarious that the state owned gambling machines will still be there. I think it’s an eeeeevil plot. (Please insert eeeevil Mara online laugh here) Once the only thing left to do is drink and gamble then bars are no better than houses of ill repute and which means they’d best be closed all together because they’re a detriment to societal morals. It’s a secret plot to dry up Lilburn! ~grin~

The black helicopters are not circling overhead. Of course they aren’t circling overhead…they make far too much noise and spook the paranoid people being watched. They’ve got the house bugged, phone tapped, and an interceptor on the web connection to monitor all activity. Next comes the “No knock” warrant with a charge of terrorism so the perp can be secreted off to a government prison in a super secret location. hehehehehe

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Also—Still waiting to hear some opinions about the fact that MDs receive kickbacks from the drug companies based on the volume of prescriptions written each month. Hard to believe that practice remains legal.

Joe L—The AMA made a grand “pronouncement” a few years ago that nutrition was important to health. If it took these guys until recently to “discover” such a basic truth, why should I place any faith in them? Kind of reminds me of the Southern Baptist Convention making a grand proclamation a few years ago that slavery was wrong.

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Why only girls from 9-26 years of age? why can’t you get the vaccine if you are a 27 years old? what difference does it make if you are older than 26?

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By Mara

March 6, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Joe L who never met a toxic metal they didn’t love

why do people make these kind of statements? I don’t always agree with Joe’s statements, but I really, really doubt that his support for the vaccine is because he LOVES “toxic metals”. This “Real Scientist” must have graduated from the Pompous School of Vaporous Histrionics…

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

“Why only girls from 9-26 years of age? why can’t you get the vaccine if you are a 27 years old? what difference does it make if you are older than 26?”

Because the odds that you have not been exposed to the virus by age 26 are slim to none (and slim just walked out the door). The whole point is to give the vaccine at an age that’s well before sexual activity has started.

If you wanted to get it at 27 or 50 and you were negative for the virus there is no reason not to. However it’s recommended that you have it well before that time to be most effective.

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Y’all…. A small but vocal segment of the population is squawking about the vaccine “promoting immorality.” I don’t think that’s the concern for most of us who are concerned. PERSONALLY, I don’t like it when legislators want to mandate new things on my family at the urging of a corporation. Does that mean I think the vaccine is bad? NO. Does that mean I refuse to innoculate my daughter? NO. (Haven’t decided.) What it means is, I think there is value in getting the facts before deciding, and that individuals should have a voice in their own health care decisions. If the merits of the vaccine outweigh the risk, then make the case, and make it available and affordable, and educate people! I think Trader Joe’s grapefruit juice is healthy and delicious too, but I’m not trying to force you by law to drink it! Good grief!

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

Why not sixth grade girls? There are hordes of studies showing huge amounts of sexual activity in Middle School. Surely you don’t think kinds only have sex in High School. Older teenagers are more likely to already have been exposed, making the vaccine ineffective.

I wouldn’t assume that the older kids were already exposed so therefore the vaccine is ineffective. It seems to me that if we’re going to vaccinate, lets vaccinate all teenagers and young women. If a 15-year-old, for instance, hasn’t had sex or hasn’t contracted HPV, why shouldn’t she be vaccinated?

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Sandy….I don’t know that it makes any difference other than that the rates of infection or previous infection are much higher for those over 26. Chances are they’ve already been exposed to HPV and either have symptoms or their immune systems have cleared the virus. If they’ve cleared the virus they should have some natural immunity going forward.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

The real truth is that the AMA has had a stranglehold on our lawmakers for too long. MDs have set themselves up to be the “experts” in all matters relating to health, yet their track record is laughable. The bottom line is that we are a “drug nation”. Watch TV tonight and see what percentage of ads relate to drugs. Got a headache? Take a pill. Overweight? Take a pill. Can’t get it up? Take a pill.

Sorry, I’m not buying this “better living through chemistry” idea which is so ingrained in most people’s thinking that they look at you with glazed eyes when you point out that all healing comes from within.

By Mara

March 6, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Sandy - perhaps because finding a 27-year-old who hasn’t been exposed to the virus is as likely as finding a pink unicorn :^)

Net - just for you…mmmwwwaaaaaAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHaaaaa!!) The question I have is whether people will just completely quit going to bars in Lilburn at all. I mean if all you’re allowed to do is sit there, drink beer, and watch sports on television…heck, that’s pretty much a regular Sunday afternoon at our house. LOL!

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

A small but vocal segment of the population is squawking about the vaccine “promoting immorality.” So do you think that is because they never get a chance to be vocal and squawk in the bedroom?

By SusieHomeMaker

March 6, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

JoeL: Are you a lobbyist for Merck? Or do you work for that Senator who’s pushing this bill? Enquiring minds wanna know.

By WWW???

March 6, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Lilly Toad: I think I missed something in your post. I only said ‘more likely’ to be exposed. Yes if a 15 isn’t sexually active and/ or negitive for HPV why not have them vaccinated? But if we are talking about combining this inoculation with the others required for public school attendance why not in 6th grade. There is plenty of proof that the age of sexual exploration, shall we call it, is getting younger and younger. I think the whole point of the vaccine is to have it in your system before POSSIBLE exposure.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

“If a 15-year-old, for instance, hasn’t had sex or hasn’t contracted HPV, why shouldn’t she be vaccinated?”

Are you saying that the protocol should be for starting at 15 years or that we should in addition to requiring 9-11 year olds also include older ages? If it’s the first the point is to get them at an age well before possible exposure. If the second requiring it for a population that has a decent chance of exposure would be much more of a waste while individuals could still choose to vaccinate those children.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

So do you think that is because they never get a chance to be vocal and squawk in the bedroom?

NetB—I squawk plenty in the bedroom. My concern for this vaccine is that once again, the most important ingredient of good health, i.e. healthy behavior is being skipped over in a rush to discuss the medical merits and drawbacks of this particular vaccine. Why is that? Shouldn’t healthy behavior be at the top of our list of considerations?

By SusieHomeMaker

March 6, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

Our government, the FDA, agreed with companies that using high fructose corn syrup in products was o.k.; NOW we find out that it fosters diabetes. Now we have fat kids and kids younger and younger with diabetes and NOW are government is concerned about overweight kids and kids with diabetes. Have they asked companies to take out the high fructose corn syrup? Nooooo.

Our government said it was o.k. for companies to use trans fat in its products; NOW we find that it fosters fat around the heart and heart attacks as well as clogged arteries. Have they asked companies to take out the high trans fat and use something else? Nooooo.

So JoeL, please don’t ridicule anyone on this post if they are a little reticent to trust our government to make decisions for us. Our government is allowing companies to slowly KILL us every day.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

“Our government, the FDA, agreed with companies that using high fructose corn syrup in products was o.k.; NOW we find out that it fosters diabetes.”

Oh please. It’s not the high fructose corn syrup (which btw came about because they wanted to keep chemical plants from WWII from shutting down and creating unemployment) that’s the problem it’s people’s behavior. Do you need the government to tell you that drinking soda all the time and eating McDonald’s is bad?

So please if you can’t understand that these products are fine when used PROPERLY you probably shouldn’t be operating an electrical device like a computer because the government didn’t tell you not to lick the outlet even though they said it was safe to use.

By Maggie

March 6, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

To the ignorant person called Last1withMorals: I totally take offense to everything you said. Do you even know a thing about HPV? I am a decent 33 year old woman and have never been a “tramp”, “slut” or anything even close. How shallow and ignorant of you to even assume that a person who contracts HPV is a skank. I contracted HPV at the age of 26 and can still count the number of partners on 2 fingers—does that make me a slut? Do your research before making stupid remarks! And by the way, I never told any of my friends and only my mom knew about it, so how do you know that nobody in your “circle” of friends and family don’t? If you have sex, regardless if it’s the first time or 50th time, you’re at risk! I’m not a political person and do not normally comment on political issues. But I do have a problem with the government trying to control what goes in our body, rather our kids, when so little research has been done on long term effects. They don’t know what can happen to a woman’s body 10-15 yrs down the road after having this vaccine—it hasn’t been around long enough. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is a huge step in the right direction in the prevention of cervical cancer, but I think parents should have the right to choose whether or not to vaccinate theirs kids at such a young age.

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By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

So JoeL, please don’t ridicule anyone on this post if they are a little reticent to trust our government to make decisions for us. Our government is allowing companies to slowly KILL us every day.

Susie—I hope one day you take this line of thinking to the “next level” so you ask “Who can we trust?” when it comes to matters of health. The answer is that all we have to do is trust God. Good food comes from the ground, not from any factory.

Consider this: An apple contains more than 10,000 different organic compounds, all in perfect balance and harmony with one another. To be able to map out all of the delicate balances and how they interact with our gut exceeds the capability of the most powerful computers. So, forgive me if I don’t trust the government to analyze food.

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March 6, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

Gotta run—My final question is who is smarter, God or Man? I’m going with God.

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Standing and applauding at Susie!

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

My point was not starting the vaccination on 15-year-olds (15 was an example). I’m wondering why not 6th graders, 7th graders, etc, on up to high school. Once the high schoolers are innoculated, then lets focus on 6th graders.

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

I mean 6th graders going forward.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Standing and applauding at Susie!

I could hear your BS-O-Meter chirping away all the way out here in Lilburn, kimberly. Wonder what happened to Joe L’s meter? It doesn’t seem to be working very well.

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By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Sorry Dog my BS meter is overloaded anytime you come within a mile of this blog so it blots out any chance of picking up any other readings.

Tell you what go jump off a building and trust God to catch you. Really, I’m sure it’s better than a manmade parachute.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Sorry Dog my BS meter is overloaded anytime you come within a mile of this blog so it blots out any chance of picking up any other readings.

Tell you what go jump off a building and trust God to catch you. Really, I’m sure it’s better than a manmade parachute.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

Tell you what go jump off a building and trust God to catch you. Really, I’m sure it’s better than a manmade parachute.

Joe, I would love to discuss “God” with you one day, but you keep insisting on defining “God” in a childish way involving superstition and fairy tales. If you want to have an adult discussion one day, let me know.

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

Joe L, nice job reaming the rightie over on “TR,” by the way. Please forgive our skepticism; it’s not without cause or merit. I don’t know what I’m going to do re: the vaccine and the female child. But I will seek information from a variety of sources before making that decision, I assure you! And yes I do believe that the heavily-marketed garbage we ingest in this country was designed to be addictive, and that the drug industry is pushing crap on us we not only don’t need, but is harmful in the long run. “Just say NO” is a good motto when you don’t know what’s in something — legal or otherwise.

By Yolanda

March 6, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Another Question, What incentive does the financial director of the pharmacutical maker have to cure something that brings in big profits to maintain it but does not kill anybody and you can always blame the person who got it on their own behavior? If you were president of the company, who’s job depends on profits, would you? Yes or no?

The pharm. company want these vaccines to be mandatory for 13 year old girls. We never run out of 13 year old girls, every year there is a new “batch” of 13 year old girls that would be “mandated” to have this vaccine. This would be guaranteed profits for the pharm. company every year in addition to the profits they make from treatments they are providing for the older women that contract HPV because the vaccine was not available for us at 13 years of age. There also have not been any long-term studies on this vaccine (I don’t consider 4 years long-term), so who is to say that it is 100% effective and that some of these girls will not still develop HPV later in life or some other critical side effect from the vaccine that would require extensive medical treatment. Therefore, the current director has a lot to gain financially. I don’t know how many 13 year old girls there are, but I’m pretty sure there are millions and if you get $300 per 13 year old girl every year that is quite a substantial amount of money. I don’t have a 13 year old girl, but I do have a son. I am fully supportive of the vaccine, I do not agree that it be mandatory. This disease is not spread throught the air or by innocent touching. This is an STD. Everyone should practice personal responsibility. If one would like the vaccine then that is their business, but no one should be mandated to have it.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Discuss away. I have thought, read, and studied plenty to know what to believe.

However I think an adult discussion would be well beyond your ability.

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I don’t know what I’m going to do re: the vaccine and the female child.

My humble suggestion, once again, is to focus your efforts on the most important element of health, i.e. healthy behavior. Of course, that is assuming you know what healthy behavior is.

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March 6, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

“And yes I do believe that the heavily-marketed garbage we ingest in this country was designed to be addictive, and that the drug industry is pushing crap on us we not only don’t need, but is harmful in the long run”

Hey you won’t find anyone who is more concerned about the over medication of America. I think it may be a stretch to say “designed to be addictive” if you mean that in the chemical/physical sense. I think the addiction of America (laziness, ease, etc.) is driving the proliferation of medications more than the other way around. And I honestly don’t think that many things being pushed on us are harmful per se other than in feeding that addiction and taking away the need to take other more positive and effective means.

By Monica

March 6, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

Hi NetB and Mara! I read the Lilburn thing last night. Absolutely ridiculous! I love Team Trivia! And I’ve never seen any sober person perform Karoke! I consider myself fairly conservative, but Lilburn’s over the top!

I can’t decide if I am a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal. Anyone else have that problem? :)

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

“There also have not been any long-term studies on this vaccine (I don’t consider 4 years long-term), so who is to say that it is 100% effective and that some of these girls will not still develop HPV later in life or some other critical side effect from the vaccine that would require extensive medical treatment.”

Actually no one is claiming it’s 100% effective now. First it’s not going to take with every single person who is vaccinated (as is the case with all vaccines). Also it will only prevent 70% of cervical cancers (and 90% of genital warts).

As I have previously posted there is nothing in this vaccine that could cause critical side effects - even “unseen” ones. There is merely some matrix substances and proteins.

There is an issue of how long the vaccine will be effective and whether a booster will be needed. However this should not prevent vaccinating now and monitoring the first test groups to stay ahead of the curve with the general public vaccinations.

What do you people expect? That we should study a drug for 20, 30, 50 years so that we can ensure it’s 1000% safe? Everything in life comes with a risk, we just need to weigh the risks versus the benefits.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Discuss away. I have thought, read, and studied plenty to know what to believe.

I’ll try to be serious for a moment, Joe, even though I know I’m wasting my time trying to educate an arrogant half-wit like yourself. The crux of the matter comes down to what is called “The God of the Gaps” by Evolutionists. Because our overall “understanding” of Nature appears to be advancing, many people use a type of faulty inductive logic to conclude that in a few years we will “know it all”, that all the Gaps in Knowledge will disappear. My studies of Physics suggest otherwise, Joe. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a perfect example—No matter how much time, money, and effort you expend, you cannot simultaneously know the position and velocity of an electron. In the end, all we can do is construct “reasonable” models of the physical world, which is a far cry from true knowledge.

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

I imagine at $300 a shot lots of parents will have a “moral objection” to the mandatory vaccination. The average Waffle House waitress or short order cook won’t be able to afford it.

By Scott H.

March 6, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

The point is (OR should be) that this is not about a sexually transmitted disease, it is about preventing one of the most common forms of cancer in women. the vaccination does not promote sex in any way whatsoever. Human pampiloma virus can be transmitted in ways other than sexual contact and certainly without intercourse but that is still not the point. there is a virus out there; it causes cancer; there is a vaccination now. What kind of parent would prevent their daughter from getting a vaccination that prevents cancer. I have a daughter. I am all for a strong, even prude, moral upbringing for my children. Nevertheless I cannot fathom how someone could not allow their daughter to get a vaccine for a type of (common) cancer. They see the word “cervix” and get all nervous. We live in an unbalanced society if we can develop and fund and finance a vaccination like this but then not allow our daughters to have it. I can prevent you from getting a kind of cancer that you are potentially likely to get — how could you say no?

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Nope we will NEVER understand everything. Knowledge can be viewed as a never ending sequence of halves. We constantly halve what we don’t know and while our understanding will grow there will always be unknonws. HOWEVER the superstitious among us will fill those gaps with “divinity” while many of us will understand that what we can’t explain is merely unknowned and not unknowable.

But again it’s not our pure or complete understanding of anything that makes it anything but natural. And our own history proves that. Time and time again what was determined to be only possible as the hand of God has been proven to be nothing but.

Your problem is your fear of the unknown drives you to embrace something that protects you from it. A nice warm security blanket to assuage your anxiety.

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

I think doctors should encourage parents of girls to get the vaccination for their daughters, but the government should not mandate vaccination. This is not an epidemic and it is not contacted casually. The reason for measles and polio vaccination requirements is the easy spreading of the disease. By having the polio vaccine, polio has been almost eliminated world wide.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

“I imagine at $300 a shot lots of parents will have a “moral objection” to the mandatory vaccination. The average Waffle House waitress or short order cook won’t be able to afford it.”

The way I understand it is that all three shots in the sequence will total $360 - that’s not per shot. And that of course does not include any medical costs. Although I would imagine that like most vaccines that you should be able to get it admistered for free at public health clinics even if you have to pay for the vaccine.

By NetBanker

March 6, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Guess with all the karaoke music stopped everything is easier to hear in Lilburn.

I’m in agreement with Susie on a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to our government. I say this not as a paranoid person, but as the child of a government military scientist who heard all kinds of things about the wonderful inner workings of our government while growing up.

Good food comes from the ground, not from any factory. Unless it’s the chocolate factory! Seriously though, I recently hear talking a co-worker talking about “organic” fruits and vegetables. As I pointed out ALL fruits and veggies are organic. I wish I could get someone to convince my partner that taking vitamins and supplements on a daily basis are NOT a substitute for actual fruits, vegetables, and legumes. The man (and his brothers) has never approached a fruit or veggie without extreme caution and/or disgust and they rarely ever pass his lips willingly or knowingly. Shhhhhh…don’t tell him, but that meatloaf he raved about from Sunday supper had an entire yellow squash in it. I’ve taken to putting veggies into the food processor so that I can sneak them into various meats and sauces undetected by the unsuspecting. I don’t dare fess up because I swear he’d refuse to eat anything I prepared forevermore into the future even if he thought it was amazingly good just to be stubborn and spiteful.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

The deepest point, Joe, is that ultimately, all knowledge is discovered through Inductive Reasoning, not Deductive Reasoning. How do we “know” that the Sun will rise tomorrow? No type of Deductive Logic can answer that question. Ultimately we have to say, “Because it has always done so in the past”. Based on what appears to be consistent, we are able to formulate “Laws of Physics”. As such, these “Laws” are merely a reflection of consistency, not truth, if you think about it a little.

The most Scientific point of view in the face of this revelation should be one of humility, not arrogance. As such, don’t expect me to jump when some lab rat tries to convince me that margarine is “better” than butter, or that eggs are “bad” for your health. Or that I “need” to have a flu shot every year. Or that Life is the result of some mysterious explosion of a type of matter which doesn’t exist now, and that gazillions of happy accidents led to the perfectly integrated world in which we live. Sorry, I’m just not buying it.

By Mara

March 6, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Hi Monica! I, too, am a trivia nut! Somehow I’ve managed to accrue tons of useless knowlege. Useless unless I get lucky enough to get on Jeopardy one day that is! :^)

As for you political identity being a bit hazy…felt that way after Reagan left office. Here’s a fun quiz to find out if you are a soft- or hard-core libertarian. Kinda fun. Some of the questions are pretty wacky, but the score key has an answer for that (see “What a score of Zero means”…) Have fun all. I’m outta here.

http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/purity.cgi

FYI - mine was a 20

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Guess with all the karaoke music stopped everything is easier to hear in Lilburn.

Actually, everyone has been drowned out by the Mexicans blaring their accordian music for a few years now anyway, so no big loss.

Try this line of reasoning with your partner, NetB: If you don’t eat good food, you can’t replace the lost ingredients with a pill. Conversely, if you’re eating good food, you don’t need any supplements. Some people are surprised to know that I sold no vitamins at my chiropractic practice, nor any other gadget, gizmo, or gimmick. It’s all BS, and I saw no reason to rip my customers off. Maybe that’s why I always had a steady stream of new clients, yet never advertised even once.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

“How do we “know” that the Sun will rise tomorrow? No type of Deductive Logic can answer that question. Ultimately we have to say, “Because it has always done so in the past”. Based on what appears to be consistent, we are able to formulate “Laws of Physics”. As such, these “Laws” are merely a reflection of consistency, not truth, if you think about it a little.”

Actually we can never say with any certainty that we KNOW what is going to happen. The sun is going to rise tomorrow because the universal law of gravity say that we will continue to revolve around the sun. This is far from inductive reasoning. We can take formulas that are proven and calculate the circular velocity of the Earth and DEDUCE that we will continue in a consistent orbit around the sun.

“Or that Life is the result of some mysterious explosion of a type of matter which doesn’t exist now, and that gazillions of happy accidents led to the perfectly integrated world in which we live. Sorry, I’m just not buying it.”

Your not buying it because it’s too complex for you to comprehend. The underlying rules of the universe basically define what has to happen given enough time. “Life” is an illusion it’s merely a name we give to a certain state of matter. For instance the discussion about viruses being living or not.

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Yes, JoeL, I do think drugs should be tested for a long time expecially if the state is then going to mandate vaccination. Why not minimize the risk? Once again, cervical cancer is not an epidemic.

It appears that you are totally in favor of the mandatory vaccination and nothing will sway you.

My main objection is that it is a company that has lobbied to have its vaccine mandatory for a certain age group and it is very expensive. I’d be more in favor of mandating free or low cost pap smears for all girls and women.

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

Netbanker — too funny about the squash in the meatloaf! And congratulations to your employer pulling its add on Ann Coulter’s website because of her hateful comments on John Edwards. (Although as a NB customer I wish they had never advertised there.)

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

what we can’t explain is merely unknowned and not unknowable.

Once again, you’ve blown your credibility, Joe. And I don’t mean because of the spelling error. Science has already proven that many things are “unknowable”, not merely “unknown”. In fact, if you understood Godel’s Uncertainty Principle, you would know that ALL systems of knowledge are incomplete and inconsistent by their very nature. I’m sure what I’m saying is lost on you, because you want to believe that I am attempting to argue for the existence of a supernatural “being”. I’m not, Joe. My definition of God is based on Science, along with Scientific Theology.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

“Yes, JoeL, I do think drugs should be tested for a long time expecially if the state is then going to mandate vaccination. Why not minimize the risk? Once again, cervical cancer is not an epidemic.

It appears that you are totally in favor of the mandatory vaccination and nothing will sway you.

My main objection is that it is a company that has lobbied to have its vaccine mandatory for a certain age group and it is very expensive. I’d be more in favor of mandating free or low cost pap smears for all girls and women.”

I’m completely and totally in favor of people using this vaccine. The mandatory part I’m not as adamant about. However most of the arguments against have been more towards the vaccine in general. It’s stupid and silly to wait 50 years to bring a drug to market. We have a pretty good understanding of how and why to test a drug. Even many of the drugs that have been recalled were actually more beneficial than harmful but that doesn’t matter in our litigious society.

Pap smears would be much, much more expensive than just preventing one of the main things they are there to diagnose. Not saying we shouldn’t be advocating paps but the cba greatly favors the vaccine.

This is the other silliness going on to me. Because Merck has clear ulterior motives people are completely disregarding the important questions. It’s cutting off your nose to spite your face.

By Dan

March 6, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Though it will cause a firestorm I am going to throw it out there anyway. I think that mandating someone be innoculated whether or not they want to would be an invasion of privacy. In other words unconstitutional based on the precedent set forth in Roe v Wade. Funny how the pendulum swings

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

Woops—That was Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem, not Godel’s Uncertainty Principle. Are you familiar with this most important result in Formal Logic, Joe?

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

The sun is going to rise tomorrow because the universal law of gravity say that we will continue to revolve around the sun.

We can take formulas that are proven and calculate the circular velocity of the Earth and DEDUCE that we will continue in a consistent orbit around the sun.

Honestly, Joe, I don’t even know where to begin in trying to help you pull your head out of your butt. What you’re saying here is that the Sun will rise tomorrow because we say it will, and nothing more. The “Universal Law of Gravitation” is a description of a natural event. The description doesn’t mandate anything. Get it? The reason the formulas are “proven” is only because they are consistent, that they can be used to make predictions which can be verified. However, correlation and causation are two very different things, something BC never seemed to grasp. The formula didn’t create gravity, our observations about gravity led to the formulation. Two very different things.

By kimberly

March 6, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

NetB, You ROCK! Haha! Your partner is a lucky person to be so loved. I don’t understand the common aversion to fruits and veggies. A little melted butter with lemon & garlic salt makes just about any vegetable yummy, IMO. (Except beets. Don’t come near me with those bleeping beets!) Haha!

Mongrel, no, I don’t know a freaking thing about “healthy behavior,” as I’m just waiting for some knight in shining b-llsh-t to ‘splain it to me, thanks.

By WWW???

March 6, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

Ok, yes it is a vaccine and it will cost money. But here is the thing: If the government mandates it for all school children then it has to be available to all income brackets. Thus it will be somehow subsidized. Also, those out there that actually have insurance, what % do you pay for your (or your children’s) current vaccines, my guess is less than the full retail cost. I do not want to come off as harsh or get on a soap box but saying that an incurable STD, that causes cancer and effects almost 50% of college aged women is not an epidemic is very short sighted. These are some basic statistics that are almost 10 years old from a quick Google search:

An estimated 75 percent of the reproductive-age population has been infected with sexually transmitted HPV (Koutsky, 1997).

An estimated 15 percent of Americans ages 15 to 49 are currently infected (Koutsky, 1997).

Studies repeatedly show high levels of HPV infection in women, with the highest levels among young women.

A U.S. study among female college students found that an average of 14 percent became infected with genital HPV each year. About 43 percent of the women in the study were infected with HPV during the three-year study period (Ho, 1998).

Typical prevalence of HPV for women under the age of 25 is between 28 and 46 percent (Burk, 1996; Bauer, 1991).

How could you not get behind anything that stems the advance of this disease. Why would you be against this?

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

No you can dress up a pig all you want Dog but your God is not rooted in science. At some point any God relies on a divinity divorced of all things natural - which means any and all science.

But again you have trouble understanding the theoretical versus the practical. Just because I can’t simultaneously know a particles location and velocity does not make either of those things “supernatural” and divine. It’s merely a limitation of measurement.

Again you are talking about MICRO events not macro. We may not be able to know the velocity of every particle in the universe but that does not mean that our understanding is incomplete.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

The bottom line, Joe, is that to understand modern Physics, you have to know a lot of advanced mathematics, such as the “manifolds of n-dimensions” along with the calculus of manifolds. Somehow, I don’t believe you have gone that far in your mathematical studies. As such, I don’t think you really understand modern Physics at all. You may have studied a little about “sub-atomic particles” and “string theory”, enough to throw a few terms around, but I doubt if you have any inkling of what the philosophical impact of real modern Physics is. Hint: it relates to your belief that everything is ultimately “knowable”.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

“The formula didn’t create gravity, our observations about gravity led to the formulation.”

No really? Wow you must impress all the other third graders. You can’t diminish the fact that the sun rises because gravity exists. Not because we decided it would happen. And gravity exists because of the natural state of the universe. The sun rose before we quantified gravity despite our explanations to the contrary.

Gravity IS the causation for the sun rising. What causes gravity? Now that’s part of our unknown realm, but I know it’s not GOD!

Quite simply you are making circular and completely unrelated arguments about stuff that I understood eons ago.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Mongrel, no, I don’t know a freaking thing about “healthy behavior,” as I’m just waiting for some knight in shining b-llsh-t to ‘splain it to me, thanks.

Well, my own track record isn’t the greatest, so I take that jab back.

(Except beets. Don’t come near me with those bleeping beets!) Haha!

I can deal with beets, but please keep the brussel sprouts out of the house. The sulphur residue lingers for days when you cook them.

By Joe L

March 6, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

”. Somehow, I don’t believe you have gone that far in your mathematical studies.”

I have more than enough higher order math to understand everything of advanced physics even if I can’t do all the ins and outs. And there is no doubt you can’t either.

I’m not concerned at all about my ability to understand and philosophize about the universe Dog. And I have seen more than enough of your “brilliance” to know where we stand comparatively.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Just because I can’t simultaneously know a particles location and velocity does not make either of those things “supernatural” and divine. It’s merely a limitation of measurement.

Joe, in a word, you’re wrong. The meaning of Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle is that it’s not a matter of a “limitation of measurement”. I’m not going to waste any more time with you, though, you’re too arrogant to learn.

By Dan

March 6, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

WWW your facts (assuming they are and they are hugely suspect at best) belie your position 75% of reproductive age are infected aside from being hogwash, why is this releveant if it is incurable it remains an issue after menapause as well then you say 15% of americans are infected is it 75 or 15 14% of college women and another that says between 28 and 46% please a guess is more accurate. The fact is such similar viruses are present on everyone, most people have developed an immunity and even if you believe your worst case above of 75% that necessarily implies that in the great majority of cases it never manifests into a serious disease and a mass vaccination may actually undermine the populations natural immunity which based on the stats you provide seems to be working pretty well

By Lily Toad

March 6, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

Mmmmmm beets. Had beets on my salad today.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

What causes gravity?

Keep thinking that one over, Joe. I hope you don’t conclude that some supernatural, anthropomorphic being is responsible. I don’t. However, the question deserves an answer, an answer that does not lie in the realm of “normal” Scientific understanding. Many extremely intelligent people settle for Agnosticism, which is what I’m supporting in a general way. However, I think some elements of traditional religion make sense, so that I can’t call myself a true Agnostic.

By A Real Scientist

March 6, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

The bottom line, Joe, is that there is no “reason” that matter has the property such that clumps of matter appear to interact with other clumps of matter in a way that we can describe as “attraction”. Einstein, of course, would have none of that, and believed instead that the appearance of “attraction” was “actually” a distortion of space (or more accurately, space-time). So, is gravity “really” an attraction of matter over distance, or is it a distortion of space-time? It’s neither, Joe. Can you understand that simple point? You keep confusing a drawing of the ocean with the ocean itself.

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By I Am There

March 7, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

I was happy to see at least one post above that mentioned the “other” issue with HPV…which is the GENITAL WARTS! People, you need to realize that while it is true that very few people with HPV will get cervical cancer, HUGE amounts of people WILL get WARTS. Imagine your sweet little daughter finally reaching whatever state YOU deem is “appropriate” for her to begin having a sexual relationship (marriage, college, mid 30’s, whatever) and she is too ashamed to even DATE because she has warts all over her private place. Think about it. And, she knows that when this outbreak finally is gone, there is another one and another one and another one, possibly for the rest of her life, lurking ahead of her. I know all of this because I have HPV. I found out that I have it when I started getting warts all over that place. I am someone who has had annual Paps since age 17. I am now in my mid 30’s. At the time I found warts, I was engaged to be married. It didn’t work out between us. Now I am single again. It took at least 8 months for the warts to go away. Imagine knowing that there are warts on you for that long. Now, I know that at any time, they could come back again. How wonderful. I have to live with the knowledge that: 1) They may come back. Again and Again. 2) I morally SHOULD tell any man I date that I have this STD. BEFORE kissing stage, since there IS some medical evidence that HPV is carried in saliva. (Those of you who think this is about virginity, pay attention) 3) So, here I am, mid 30’s, and I have to tell men by the 3rd date or so that I have an STD that may at some point cause me, and HIM, to have warts all over our special places. hmmm…would you date me?????? 4) Also, I have decided to not ever have children, since there is also medical evidence that mothers can pass this to their children. 5) During MY twice yearly Paps (yes, when you have HPV, you have to go twice a year), if they see any “abnormal cells”, then they do what’s known at a colposcopy (forgive spelling). It is a hideously painful procedure where they laser off areas of your vaginal area that contain “precancerous” cells. I have been through a LOT of physical pain in my life, due to a vehicle accident, and this was worse than most of that. For me, anyway. So, now I live in fear that I will have to have another of those procedures someday.

Now. All of you MORALIZERS, think about Little Suzy getting her first kiss from a boy who has this, and then she has HPV.

Don’t be an idiot about this. I honestly would rather battle cervical cancer than the warts. BECAUSE cervical cancer is highly diagnosable and treatable, that’s why so few die. If you get an annual PAP, your chances of dying are incredibly slim. Especially since they do that lovely procedure described above at the first sign of “precancerous” cells. Yes, they can prevent your death. But, they CANNOT prevent you from getting WARTS. Oh, wait—-yes they can! It’s called Gardasil!

So, when Little Suzy comes to you at age 15 and says “Mom, I have these ugly weird bumps on myself down there…what is wrong with me?” And then you take her to the Doctor and the Doctor explains all of this. And she turns to you and says “Mom, why didn’t you let me get the vaccine?” And you say “I’m sorry…I thought it might turn you into a slut.” Then Little Suzy can contemplate the fact that from then on, for the rest of her life, she must tell EVERY boy she dates, before kissing stage arrives, that she has HPV, and explain the ramifications to him, and then HE has to make a decision whether to continue dating or not. HELLO! Do you think young men are going to want to take that on??? Not many. So, she will be rejected. Then, she will start to date less, because it is just too hard to face. AND/OR, she may not be able to bring herself to tell the boys. Then she has to live with the GUILT that comes from knowing that she knowingly put his health at risk, as well as the health of everyone he ever comes into contact with for the rest of HIS life. Nice! Oh, don’t forget about how people TALK. Every person she tells is a person who may tell other people that Little Suzy has genital warts. Nice!

People, please please understand…this virus is RAMPANT among all people under the age of 40. It is EASY to transmit! You do NOT have to have sex to get it!!! It’s not about morals! It’s a public health CRISIS! Read my post! If I had found out I had this at age 21 or under, I don’t think I could have lived with this. I honestly would have considered killing myself. As it is, I am old enough to handle it. But think about me when you deny your Daughter the right to prevent this scenario:

The end of a lovely Dinner and Movie date, date number 5. I really like him! The date is over, walking to the door…I know he wants to kiss me, I want to kiss him. I am 35 and should be able to kiss a man after the 5th date. But, I can’t. Because I haven’t sat him down for “the talk” yet. So, my choices are to: dodge the kiss yet again invite him in for “the talk” and hope he likes me enough already to risk his life, and the life of any future women he dates, and the life of any children he may ever have, just by kissing me.

Good luck, Little Suzy. AT least you didn’t have sex at too early an age. That’s all that matters, right? You were not a Teenage Slut.

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• I’ve taken to putting veggies into the food processor so that I can sneak them into various meats and sauces undetected by the unsuspecting. I don’t dare fess up because I swear he’d refuse to eat anything I prepared forevermore into the future even if he thought it was amazingly good just to be stubborn and spiteful*

NetBanker, you sound as wicked as my mother—who—for the sake of goodness gave us a way to eat veggies: pot pies! Big huge pies with 6” of veggies—and since we had very little meat—she would remainder whatever we had into the pie. Course back then Nana made cornbread with fat from bacon drippings—indeed everything she made had bacon fat in it—even the crust of her blueberry/apple pies—and she died at 97 skinny as a rail and fit to clog dance until she was 96. My (ever weight conscious) sister bakes a squash and pulls it into ribbons and serves this under spaghetti sauce in place of noodles…does not fool me but as Euel Gibbons said: some parts are edible!

Lily Toad: I imagine at $300 a shot lots of parents will have a “moral objection” to the mandatory vaccination. The average Waffle House waitress or short order cook won’t be able to afford it True, but s/he somehow can afford: music CDs & ipods, console games & players, beer & booze & contraband, jewelry, car, cellphones, cigarettes, televisions & cable tv, computers &, internet and wardrobe must haves. Lily Toad, most Americans could afford this vaccine even if at poverty level but so many have never learned to budget their money or assign a priority to their own health and health of their children!

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By WWW???

March 7, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Thank you ‘I am There’ for sharing your story. I wish more people would understand and think about your perspective.

By Guy Pinestra

March 7, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Let’s keep it simple folks. If parents want to inject their daughters with this stuff that should be left up to them.

The problem here is the mandatory nature of it. Merck is the sole producer of this drug, Merck is funding the propaganda push for this drug, Merck provided the money and impetus for this so-called ‘women’s health group’ to lobby for this drug, Merck will make BILLIONS OF DOLLARS from this drug, Merck gives LARGE* campaign contributions to the politicians that **SUPPORT this drug.

This isn’t about women’s health, this is about gargantuan PROFITS for Merck.

Is the picture a little clearer now?

By Mara

March 7, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Pinestra and the rest’a ya - (sigh) AGAIN!!! “Mandatory” in this case only means “Highly recommended”. Jeeez.

Get off the “they can’t force me to innoculate my kid” screed already. They aren’t “forcing” anyone to get the shots, they’re just asking those parents who DON’T want their child protected to confirm that desire in writing.

By Just Being Me

March 7, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Thanks to all for your well wishes.

I just came back to check up on the blog, and I thought I’d mention (with fingers crossed, hoping I don’t jinx it) that I’m really surprised to see we’ve actually stayed on topic for three days in a row. Impressive.

Are we on a record-setting trend?

By Akagi

March 7, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Mara:

If SB 155 passes the only exception is religious grounds. I can’t simply say “I don’t want some petty tyrant from the cesspool known as Snellville and works for the Waffle House telling me how best to care for my child.” I would have to basically lie and say that my religious beliefs do not allow my child to accept this vaccine and that would be a lie.

Is the vaccine safe? Maybe. Is it effective? Maybe. But the state has no compelling interest in forcing parents to vaccinate their child with this vaccine. The state has an interest in stopping illnesses that are spread by casual contact such as MMR. This is not the case with this vaccine. This vaccine may be a good idea, but that is for the parents of the child to decide, not Merck and Mr. Waffle House.

Perhaps Mr. Balfour and you should read J.S. Mill’s essay “On Liberty” sometime.

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Dog - It IS a limitation of measurement because the measurement itself would change the value. So I can know where it is or what it’s velocity is but the measurement of one changes the other. But it doesn’t change the fact that not being able to acquire both pieces of information means anything divine.

Actually one current popular model of gravity is that mass curves space and therefore the “attraction” between masses is moving from the higher energy state to the lower at the “bottom” of the curve. That’s why gravity doesn’t truly exist. Again it doesn’t change the fact that “gravity” exists no matter what the cause and whether we can explain it yet.

Too arrogant to “learn”? Sorry but your “learning” would be taking a step backward in my knowledge and understanding. I’m too smart to dumb down to your level.

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

“If SB 155 passes the only exception is religious grounds”

Wrong. It’s religious and MORAL grounds. If you feel something is unsafe for your child you have MORAL grounds to oppose it.

“The state has an interest in stopping illnesses that are spread by casual contact such as MMR. This is not the case with this vaccine”

Wrong again. The state has ALWAYS had an interest in stopping all communicable disease whether through “casual” contact or not. Every STD is reported to the public health depts which seek to track and stop the spread. This is no different except we can actually PREVENT it. What is so wrong with Americans that they never understood “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”. We never want to confront anything until it’s an active problem.

By Akagi

March 7, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Joe:

From the bill itself; “The report shall be filed on forms prepared by the Department of Human Resources and shall state the number of children attending the school or facility, the number of children who did not submit certificates of immunization within the waiver period, and the number of children who are exempted from the certification requirement for medical or religious reasons.”

Please find me in the text of the bill your “moral exemption clause.”

The state has no interest in forcing children to be vaccinated against an illness that 1) is declining and 2) is spread via non-causal contact. There is an excellent opinion by an OBY/GN in yesterday’s AJC. But I guess he doesn’t understand science either, right Joe?

By kimberly

March 7, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Why hasn’t Chuck weighed in on this one? On one hand, he is a father (wants grandchildren one day) and a teacher (sees other people’s kids all day), and on the other hand he’s a hard-core churchie (repeat what pastor says) and a professed “conservative” (less government intrustion unless they’re intruding for what pastor says). I can’t believe I’m saying this, but as an undecided parent, I’d like to hear him opine; his silence on this is almost conspicuous.

By Kepler

March 7, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Joe L. - I have been reading some of your comments:

I have more than enough higher order math to understand everything of advanced physics even if I can’t do all the ins and outs.

and

We can take formulas that are proven and calculate the *circular velocity of the Earth and DEDUCE that we will continue in a consistent orbit around the sun.*

I understand that you believe the heliocentric model of Copernicus that states that planets orbit the sun in a circle. But I have an exciting NEW theory. I believe that the orbit of any planet is actually an ellipse. However, I need someone with “high order math skills” to review my calculations before I present my findings. Can you help me?

By MrRogers

March 7, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By NetBanker

March 7, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Try this line of reasoning with your partner I’ve already tried every line of reasoning there is. You just can’t reason with a stubborn, jewish, new yorker. I just lead by example and hope that his acknowledgements of my eating a very healthy diet will eventually turn into action.

Lily Toad…thanks for the congratulations on NetBank pulling their ads, but I don’t work for them. I work for a software company that produces web-based banking products that banks rebrand and sell to customers.

By Mary

March 7, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

As a mother of twins, I am confident in myself as a parent to have both my 12 year olds vaccinated against a potentially life-threatening disease. I did my research, was hesitant until I talked to my pediatrician whom I trust with both my girls lives and felt absolutly confident in our decision. They only have one more shot (out of the series of three)and my children will have one less serious problem to have to worry about as they grow up. If they are sexual promiscuous, it will not be because we made the decision (one my daughters are proud of) to get the vaccination, it is because I failed at some point to discuss and inform my girls about sexuality. One other note - the pediatrician who said it had only been tested for 4 years, a doctor in my pediatrician’s office had the vaccination when she was in college. She has been practicing medicine for 8 years now. Better check your records again. Parents, don’t fall into the silly arguments you get from paranoid people about children having sex becasue of this vaccine. By smart and protect your girls. I think God will smile on all of us that protect his children.

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

“The state has no interest in forcing children to be vaccinated against an illness that 1) is declining and 2) is spread via non-causal contact. There is an excellent opinion by an OBY/GN in yesterday’s AJC. But I guess he doesn’t understand science either, right Joe?”

You are wrong that the disease is declining. It’s is in actuality INCREASING. The secondary result of the disease, cervical cancer is decreasing. But that is because it’s caught and treated. Makes more sense to prevent the disease.

So if an AIDS vaccine was developed we shouldn’t require people to be immunized? Sorry but it’s completely in the state and public’s interest to control any and all communicable diseases.

Yeah and the former doctor in Congress who said that women can’t get pregnant through rape should be trusted to? There’s knowledge and there’s agenda and often one cancels the other. The fact that he references patents shows that he is yet again another person who refuses to view the subject absent of related satellite issues, like profits for any company. This discussion should merely revolve around the vaccine and it’s benefits.

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

Tell you what Dog go master some 9th grade math and you can figure it out yourself!

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

MrRogers—Your Dog sighting skills have been poor lately. “Kepler” is not DOG, because “Kepler” doesn’t know much about Science.

Let me explain why you know very little about mathematics either, Joe. In creating a mathematical model yesterday to reflect the advancement of knowledge, you chose an infinite series based on the idea that first we learn half of all there is to know, then half again, and half again, resulting in a converging series 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8….. which all adds up to 1. The truth is, Joe, that knowledge is diverging, not converging. Every few years we double our knowledge, so that the appropriate infinite series would be more along the lines of 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ….

You see, the God of the Gaps is getting larger, not smaller as you somehow believe.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

3) So, here I am, mid 30’s, and I have to tell men by the 3rd date or so that I have an STD that may at some point cause me, and HIM, to have warts all over our special places. hmmm…would you date me??????

To be honest, I Am There, no, I wouldn’t date you. Call me whatever name you want, but it is my prerogative to not expose myself to STDs. Somehow in your mind, the key factor in not contracting STDs is getting all the appropriate immunizations. Where does responsible behavior fit into your world view?

By Monica

March 7, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Mara, thanks for the website yesterday! I scored a 13.

Off topic, sort of…Mr. Rogers, whoever you are, you are so perceptive of the canine presence. Are you a regular (72John perhaps?), a lurker, or dog himself? Inquiring minds wanna know!

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Why hasn’t Chuck weighed in on this one? I can’t believe I’m saying this, but as an undecided parent, I’d like to hear him opine; his silence on this is almost conspicuous.

I told you guys kimberly has a thing for chuck.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

Try this line of reasoning with your partner I’ve already tried every line of reasoning there is. You just can’t reason with a stubborn, jewish, new yorker. I just lead by example and hope that his acknowledgements of my eating a very healthy diet will eventually turn into action.

NetB—Sounds like you guys have enough domestic “issues” to start a TV series! You have further confirmed my theory that a little bit of “fighting” can be a fun thing. Why else would your partner be so stubborn?

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Any Peachtree Road Racers here among the W2W posters?? I’ll be extremely disappointed if I’m the only one. This year will make #12 in a row for me. I usually run in time group 1, but I’m too lazy to establish an official time in another race this year. Maybe I’ll shoot for group 9 and run with Clark Howard.

One more reason kimberly wouldn’t like me—I’d make her run the Peachtree whether she wanted to or not.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Sorry to break my “no-blogging” vow. I just finished reading David Hilbert’s “Geometry and the Imagination”, and my brain needs a break!

For anyone with enough math background to understand it, it is one of the most interesting books out there, especially the section entitled “Topological Mappings of a Surface onto Itself”. This is an example of Emmanuel, God Within, which one day Physicists will show is the most appropriate model for our Universe.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers, whoever you are, you are so perceptive of the canine presence. Are you a regular (72John perhaps?), a lurker, or dog himself?

MrRogers’ track record may not be as good as you think, Monica. He has responded to several DOG wannabes in the recent past. My best guess is that it is 72John. Small chance it could be BC, but he doesn’t have much of a sense of humor.

By Lily Toad

March 7, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

I Am There is showing great personal responsibility by informing her dates of her condition.

By She doesn't like you NOW

March 7, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

How embarrassed will you be when your friends find out you got your a— kicked by a girl? Oh, sorry, not applicable. Lagomorphs don’t judge.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

I Am There is showing great personal responsibility by informing her dates of her condition.

Lily, I completely agree with you. I respect her integrity if she really does tell everyone in advance. Because I don’t have any STDs, it is important to me to find out right away when dating a new lady. Unfortunately, it is usually extremely awkward and difficult to ferret out the truth from the ladies who have been exposed; few want to tell the truth.

Think about this: You guys seem to believe the way to health is through better vaccines. It’s not. Nothing beats healthy behavior. I’m sure that’s what chuck would advocate for kimberly and her daughter.

By Lily Toad

March 7, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

I don’t think 72John could be so pithy. Ranting in outrage is more his style.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

How embarrassed will you be when your friends find out you got your a— kicked by a girl?

Do you mean in the Peachtree Road Race, She doesn’t like you NOW? No, I’m a real butthole when it comes to competition. I have to win every time, no exceptions!

By NetBanker

March 7, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

NetBanker, you sound as wicked as my mother What a wonderful compliment! Thank you, I feel most honored!

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this

“I’m a real butthole…”

You could just stopped there, the rest is clearly redundant.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Anyone remember when Ted Turner rammed his wife’s boat back in 1977 when they were competing together? He knocked her out of the way and went on to win. Good man, that Ted. ; > }

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

NetBanker, you sound as wicked as my mother What a wonderful compliment! Thank you, I feel most honored!

Not to stereotype, but it’s starting to sound like our buddy NetB is the “female” of the relationship—the pretty one. I’m not knocking you, NetB. Someone has to be the pretty one, right? In many hetero marriages the male is the pretty one as well.

By She doesn't like you NOW

March 7, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

No, butthole, when she drives over there, knocks you on your arrogant, self-promoting a—, and proceeds to literally kick the crap out of you because you won’t stop talking about her. F—- the race. Let’s see you do it in a D-cup, Butthole.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

Gotta run—Hey give me some props, will you? Who else can stir up the board the way I do? To be honest, I’m usually b*******ng half the time just to provoke a reaction. I’ll leave it up to you all to figure out which half is the BS.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

Let’s see you do it in a D-cup, Butthole.

Ok, to even things up, I’ll run backwards on one leg.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

chuck, oh chuck, tell me again what a naughty girl I’ve been….

By NetBanker

March 7, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Why else would your partner be so stubborn? LOL, I don’t think that we have any different issues than anyone else. I just don’t tend to take them too entirely seriously. We do have a good time poking fun at each other and ourselves when it comes to our foibles.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

LOL, I don’t think that we have any different issues than anyone else. I just don’t tend to take them too entirely seriously. We do have a good time poking fun at each other and ourselves when it comes to our foibles.

That’s why if I were gay, I’d be coming for you NetB. I haven’t had much luck in finding a woman who can have a “good time poking fun at each other”. I think that their natural insecurity prevents it.

By Mara

March 7, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

So you can all breathe easier, I’m involved with a new project and won’t be blogging anymore

should have known that you can’t trust anything this person says…

Hey Monica. Glad you enjoyed the quiz :^)

By NetBanker

March 7, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Pretty is subjective so call it the female one of the relationship if you want, but it’s really that I’m the nurturing one. I’m also the one who is more competent in the kitchen, working with power tools, doing home fix it projects, and caring for the pool. Maybe that makes me the lesbian one?

By Monica

March 7, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Hey Mara, I found another quiz about your political stance. It’s old, from 1995, but still applicable. On a scale of 0-40, 0 being one and 40 being the other (I don’t remember which is which), I scored a 20! Gotta love fence straddlers! :)

Liberal or conservative quiz](http://franz.org/quiz.htm)

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

’m also the one who is more competent in the kitchen, working with power tools, doing home fix it projects, and caring for the pool. Maybe that makes me the lesbian one?

Quick question, NetB: If you’re doing all that, what in the heck is your partner doing?? He must really be great in bed for you to put up with all that. Strangely enough, I always end up being the caretaker in relationships as well, which sometimes leads to resentment on my part.

P.S. to kimberly: Hopefully I don’t pick on you more than anyone else. If you do come by one day, we’ll have to smoke a “peace pipe”, ok?

By Akagi

March 7, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

No Joe. The discussion should be should the state have the power to force parents to give their children a vaccine to prevent a virus that is impossible to get from casual contact? Again this is a decision best left to the parents of the child, not some hack from Waffle House.

I am sure for closet fascists like you, this type of government intrusion is fine, but for libertarians who know the proper role of the state this is an abomination. Not that Mr. Balfour has ever been a friend of liberty.

For the record I am very consistent on this. I also oppose laws the restrict smoking in “public” places (that being privately owned businesses and the like) as well as the state forcing people to wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets. I think it is a good idea to wear seat belts and even though I am exempt from wearing them due to the vehicle I drive I still wear them. I am not opposed per se to the vaccine. I am opposed to petty tyrants like Mr. Balfour and you from using the power of the state to force people to accept the vaccine outside of any religious or medical reasoning.

I guess I will have to say “I oppose the vaccine on religious grounds. My religion opposes letting idiots that work for Waffle House telling me how to care for my child.”

That work for you Joe?

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

should have known that you can’t trust anything this person says…

I’m starting a new book, “The Shape of Space” by Jeffrey R. Weeks, so that will keep me busy for a while, Mara. It explores the topology of The Big Bang, utilizing hyberbolic geometry. I peeked ahead to the ending in which the author, in recognition of both the homogeneity and isotropy of the Universe, selects a torus as the appropriate model of the Universe, which is the same model I chose years ago based strictly on philosophical reasoning. If you get a chance, pick up a copy. Might make some nice leisure reading for you.

By Mara

March 7, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Monica - LOL!! I was a 12. I fall somewhere between Bill and Hillary…

catch y’all tomorrow. I’m outta here

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

” am sure for closet fascists like you”

Ha! Hilarious. I’m the furthest thing from a fascist there is. However as soon as you are part of a SOCIETY and take advantage of it’s boons (schools, roads, etc.) you have an obligation to that society. And if that obligation means you have to been protected from spreading a communicable disease so be it.

“I am opposed to petty tyrants like Mr. Balfour and you from using the power of the state to force people to accept the vaccine outside of any religious or medical reasoning.”

Actually the only “consistency” would be if you felt the same way about any other vaccines. However I doubt you have ever made a peep about all the other communicable diseases were require vaccinations for use of PUBLIC facilities.

And the smoking ban is far from comparable because that’s about someone else poisoning and subjecting others to noxious fumes due to their behavior. If you were “consistent” in that regard you would be against noise ordinances and would have no problem if I had a party on my PRIVATE property next to your house at 4 a.m.

By lozen

March 7, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

IAMTHERE, pay no attention to cheap shots by the idiot blogger. I’m positive you wouldn’t want to date him! You shared your personal story and I appreciate that. For him then to question your sense of responsibility is just mean and insulting. But that’s what we know to expect from our A-1 sexist pig.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

For him then to question your sense of responsibility is just mean and insulting.

lozen, I applaud IAMTHERE’s courage in posting something so painful and embarrassing. Unfortunately, I suspect most of the women here will somehow rewrite her story so that she is a victim (“He lied to me”). To me, the moral of the story is don’t be stupid. Don’t sleep with people you can’t trust. That might sound hard-hearted to you, but that’s how I would explain things to my daughters if I had any.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

But that’s what we know to expect from our A-1 sexist pig.

I am assuming you mean this in an endearing way, lozen.

By She doesn't like you NOW

March 7, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Don’t sleep with people you can’t trust.

Uh-huh. Thanks, Einstein.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Don’t sleep with people you can’t trust.

Uh-huh. Thanks, Einstein.

Well, sorry to bring up the obvious, but to me, that’s what has been conspicuously absent from this week’s discussion from the Libs. BTW, if you drop by, remember my place is a schwag-free household. You’ll be pleased.

Here’s a link which shows a picture of the next tattoo I’m going to get in a few months. What do you think? I’m going to modify the triangle under the cat using the classic Grateful Dead roses.

http://www.amazon.com/Cats-Under-Stars-Jerry-Garcia/dp/B000002VFC/ref=pdbbssr_2/104-8000000-9663129?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1173303059&sr=8-2

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

After further consideration, I have to withdraw my offer of a handicap in the Peachtree Road Race, however. You see, if you lean those D cups forward, there’s no telling how much speed you might build up. I can see now why you are a good skier.

By Joe L

March 7, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

“Well, sorry to bring up the obvious, but to me, that’s what has been conspicuously absent from this week’s discussion from the Libs.”

No need to beat a dead (and painfully obvious) horse that’s only tangentially related to the topic at hand. Should we also point out that the sky is blue and too much fat is bad for you? It’s EXACTLY bringing up the obvious which is completely unnecessary.

By Akagi

March 7, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

I am not opposed to vaccines being mandated by government that prevent illnesses that are an immediate threat due to causal contact. I am opposed to vaccines being mandated by the state when there is little chance of “neighborhood effects” to use a Milton Friedman term. Of course it is much easier to defeat SB 155 than to get a bill introduced in both houses and signed by the governor to omit vaccines that fall into a similar category as Gardasil.

As for schools, I oppose government schools on principle and wish they could at some point be phased out—but that ship I am afraid has sailed. You have to fight the growing erosion of freedom we still have left by the pro-nanny state advocates, because backfilling what has already been lost in the last century and a-half or so will be difficult if not impossible. So you fight the current erosion like SB 155, rather than fight battles that were lost generations ago. Oh after SB 155 is killed, let’s hope the voters of that part of Gwinnett can send Mr. Balfour back to Waffle House permanently. As a thankfully former resident of Gwinnett, I don’t hold much hope in this regard.

You are the furthest thing from a fascist? Really? Doesn’t seem so to me. Seems your basic philosophy is more inline with the collectiveness found in both Fascism and Marxism. As long as it is good for the community at large, who cares what we do to the individual. I guess Mill’s stress of the sovereignty of the mind and body is an alien concept to you, correct?

Maybe you can use “higher math” to work out this inconsistency in your logic.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

No need to beat a dead (and painfully obvious) horse that’s only tangentially related to the topic at hand. Should we also point out that the sky is blue and too much fat is bad for you? It’s EXACTLY bringing up the obvious which is completely unnecessary.

Really, Joe? Since the most important element of health is healthy behavior, tell me again how the number of partners one sleeps with has absolutely nothing to do with that person’s chances of contracting a STD. Surely there are heart-wrenching cases in which a girl (or boy) catches something on their very first encounter. But the obvious truth is that the best way to avoid warts is to be selective. Diane was highly insulted that her health care provider asked her personal questions upon her request for the vaccine, but from a Scientific standpoint it is important info. She should thank her doctor for being concerned.

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Hey, anyone else getting a good belly laugh at all the posturing that Hillary has been doing lately in her ludicrous bid for the Presidency? Can any of you tell me with a straight face that you would actually vote for her??

By She doesn't like you NOW

March 7, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Because we always know exactly whom we can trust, right? Unless we DON’T trust people who say, “You can trust me…” Then we are accused of even greater crimes, like cynicism and (ooo, I can’t even say it… the b-word).

By A Real Scientist

March 7, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

You are the furthest thing from a fascist? Really? Doesn’t seem so to me. Seems your basic philosophy is more inline with the collectiveness found in both Fascism and Marxism.

Akagi, I saw the same truth you are speaking of many years ago. Those on the far Left talk a mean game about compassion, etc., but in the end their MO is exactly the same as far-right Fascists. In both cases, they want to force their beliefs on others because “They, and they alone, know what’s best for others”. At least the Fascists are honest about their intentions. You’ll never get a Socialist to admit the same.

By 2D

March 8, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this

Monica… Great quiz. I would agree that it is still relevent, even 12 years later.

I think I would change only things two things. The pictures at the bottom (old and crusty) and the medical question could be fashioned to include stem cell research.

Personally I scored 24. I think that was between Colin Powell and George Bush.

By Brian Curtis

March 8, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Good quiz, Monica; I scored a 7.

By ToxicFarmer

March 8, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

I am so smart, give me props.

I turned the lower forty into a toxic waste dump. My neighbors moved, fearful that their kids would ride their bikes on the toxic heap. They tried to complain to the county government, the same government that passed laws, at the neighbors’ request, restricting regulations of private property, so they were out of luck.

No one lives in my end of the county anymore.

I am so smart, give me props.

By Monica

March 8, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

Thanks 2D! I guess now I know why I thought Colin Powell should run for President! And Brian, might you be a Hilary supporter? I thought it was a cool site.

By Joe L

March 8, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

I have a really hard time with these political compass quizes because my opinions are usually so layered that a simple “yes/no/more/less” answer is inaccurate. I scored a 17 on this one though.

By Brian Curtis

March 8, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Monica: Nah, Hilary’s way too conservative for me.

By lozen

March 8, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

BrianCurtis, I’m a 7 too. Do you know who said the following?

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty — it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves… Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvelous structure of reality

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Yes Great quiz! I agree, I think now a days Hillary might be way too conservitive. I am Ted Kennedy (5) though!

By chuck

March 8, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Hi All, I felt my name being taken in vain and figured I ought to show up this week at least briefly. I had a lot of reading to do to catch up on the topic.

Mara: I scored a 41 0n your scale (HAHAHA, I am more of a libertarian than you)

Monica: I scored a 39 on yours, however some of the questions did not really give satisfactory choices.

Kimberly, I am against the government telling me that I have to have my daughter (15 years-old) vaccinated for a sexually tranmitted disease, especially when it is as new as this one. We chose to forgo the last hepatitis vaccine that came out because our doctor wasn’t yet comfortable with administering it because it was too new and there had been some problems with it. I am not against vaccines in general and once there is a significant history for them including this one, we will talk with our doctor and make a decision at that time.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

Sounds like Einstein to me.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

BTW Kimberly,

There was no intentional silence on the issue, just very little time this week.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

Hey Kim,

If you really want to get rid of Brudog here’s an idea for you. Since his name and address are kind of public knowledge now, put a job posting for construction work or yard work on as many job listing sites as you can find and just tell them to show up. He’ll have to spend so much time dealing with illegals that he will no longer have time to pester you. I would NEVER do that myself, BUT, it could be entertaining.

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

Chuck: Nice answer about the vaccine! Very middle of the road and common sense approach.
Five must be my lucky # ‘cause I got a 55 on the libertarian quiz a 5 on the other!

By Jack

March 8, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

Hi All. In class this week. My thought on the subject is that if the state wants to require it, the state should pay for it. The shot will make girls as promiscuous as the small pox shot did.

Later.

By Joe L

March 8, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

A 55 (ultra, ultra libertarian) and a 5 (ultra, ultra liberal)? Those results don’t seem to make sense.

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

Well Joe L this is what the test said: You are a medium-core libertarian, probably self-consciously so. Your friends probably encourage you to quit talking about your views so much.

Which is right on the money. :-) According to my friends! I do believe that the government should be out of some areas (porn, free speech, drugs, a woman’s medical decisions and other victimless acts) and out of other people’s countries and that our military should be drastically reduced by getting out of other people’s countries.

On the other hand I do not believe in disbanding all the Social programs that help people survive or get a leg up. So I think that is why I fall into to the two different categories.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Thanks WWW.

By Jack

March 8, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

“I would NEVER do that myself, BUT, it could be entertaining.”

Why not Chuck? You posted his address. Why don’t you post your address and phone number so we can refer all sinners to you for salvation?

By Joe L

March 8, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

WWW your description is not far off from my own (although I probably don’t want to strip down the military as much as you) which is why I am surprised by how elevated your scores are in both directions from mine (17 - libertarian, 14 - lib v. con).

It’s not the falling into two categories, it’s that you are away from the center in both which is not what would be expected.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Thanks Jack, but I think I’ll pass on that one. As you may recall, HE POSTED his address. I just added his name to it. BTW friend, it was a JOKE. I know Kimberly would never think of doing that. She is way too nice for that…except when you get on her nerves.

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Well Joe L. the views I do hold are usually held quite passionately. So there might be the reason for the extremities. I mostly believe that people are adults and should be treated as such, paired with the idea that everyone needs a little help now and then and they shouldn’t be ashamed to ask for it.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

Why not Chuck? You posted his address. Why don’t you post your address and phone number so we can refer all sinners to you for salvation?

That would be the definition of “The Golden Rule”, Jack—Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you. You would think that chuck, as a self-professed Christian, would have a better grasp of the concept. And he wonders why no one here respects his religious views.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Because we always know exactly whom we can trust, right? Unless we DON’T trust people who say, “You can trust me…” Then we are accused of even greater crimes, like cynicism and (ooo, I can’t even say it… the b-word).

To me, this has been the best point raised all week. Since the best solution to the rampant STD problem is selectivity in whom you sleep with, I think more attention should be placed on helping young women know who to trust and who not to trust. Of course, for very young girls, this is where a jealous Dad can be valuable. Dads have far better BS-O-Meters for seeing through young men than Moms do, IMO. A part of the problem, alluded to in the post here is that young women are given conflicting training when growing up. On one hand, you’re supposed to be cooperative and never hurt someone’s feelings. Unfortunately, this instruction isn’t applicable when it comes to selecting a mate.

By MrRogers

March 8, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

There goes the neighborhood.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Keep it up Brudog. Those illegals may be coming to your house yet. I hope you pay well.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

As far as general trustworthiness, I was actually not surprised at all when chuck showed himself to be a total POS a few months ago on the blog here by crossing the line of decency with me. In my experience, it’s par for the course for loud-mouthed pseudo-Christians like him who don’t even get their pagan rituals right. Now as far as Chilao, I was a little surprised at the time, although I shouldn’t have been in retrospect considering how much time he spent crowing about his great personal integrity.

“Thou dost protest too much”.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

I haven’t taken the political quiz yet, but if lozen and BC scored a 7 while 2D scored a 24, I know which end of the scale I’ll be on.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Keep laughing, chuck. I believe a motivated poster might be able to put enough clues together to find you as well, D-Wad. Might be “kind of funny” if you got fired for spending so much time on the blog, huh? You are stealing from the taxpayers with each sentence, you know.

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

“Thou dost protest too much”. Amen!!!

BruDog, A real scientist, serial name changer, this is kettle calling….um…your Black!

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March 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

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March 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

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By chuck

March 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

BTW Brudog, did you get those pizzas I ordered for you?

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March 8, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this

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By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this

BruDog, A real scientist, serial name changer, this is kettle calling….um…your Black!

If you were a little brighter, WWW, you would see the intended irony in the various name changes. You guys are all a little too hung up on “defending” your blog names. If you notice, I respond to each blogger with the moniker they choose, even if only a temporary moniker.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

BTW Brudog, did you get those pizzas I ordered for you?

Just keep remembering, what comes around, goes around, chuck. I’ve insulted “people” on the blog, so I expect the same in return, on the blog. However, I’ve never threatened anyone outside of the blog, which is what you are doing. I know you get a kick out of it, because the fact remains that you haven’t been able to hold a candle to me in any real debates here. All you can do is thump your Bible, which, in case you haven’t noticed, impresses no one. Ok, maybe kimberly is impressed—-I’ll give you that.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Hey Kimberly,

Here is a better idea. Send his address to websites that advocate for women.

NO even better…send it to military recruiters. Tell them he has been really seriously considering joining the military. That should keep him busy.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Quick W2W poll: How many people would think it would be funny if chuck got fired from his job for spending so much time on the blog??

Let’s see, white male History teacher whose wife is a Math teacher with a 15 year old daughter and an older son. Let me go back a few months and dig up more clues…….Lives in the Metro area…… Father was a firefighter in Atlanta….

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

In my experience, it’s par for the course for loud-mouthed pseudo-(INTELECTUALS) like (YOU) who don’t even get their (MATHMATICAL) rituals right.

Don’t you worry your pretty little head about my “brightness” I was just calling it as I saw it!! It’s a shame you have such a hard time looking in the mirror.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

If YOU were a little brighter Brudog, you would not have spent so much time trying to threaten and bully people on the blog that you would have to WORRY whether or not anybody knew who you were. Think of the irony of this situation. YOU post your own personal information on the blog and then get mad at somebody for putting your personal information on the blog. NOW THAT IS IRONY.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

If you were really smart, chuck, you would realize that you have a lot more to lose by stirring up trouble outside the blog than I do. I don’t have a family or job, my money is already in the bank. So keep F-ing around, smart guy.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Oh my gosh, he’s getting too close. I must abandon the blog.

DUFUS, you have given links to pictures of yourself and told people on the blog where you would be on particular nights. You are such a loser.

You notice I did NOT post your address again, which I could have. Get over yourself. One good thing though. Looking back over 2 years worth of blog postings will at least keep you busy for a while.

By Truth

March 8, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

IF *YOU were a little brighter Brudog, you would not have spent so much time trying to threaten and bully people on the blog that you would have to WORRY whether or not anybody knew who you were. *

By By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

WWW, you better watch it too. You could be next. Why I might just spend countless hours trying to figure out who you are and get you fired too. In fact, I’m going to get all of you fired and then Kimberly will have to come to me.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

who don’t even get their (MATHMATICAL) rituals right.

Hey, WWW, when you find an error in anything I’ve said about Math, let me know, will you? (Hint; I did make a small misstatement in September which no one caught). Your imbecile buddy, Joe L tried to challenge me on a few simple things, like numeric representations using bases other than 10, but all he did was make a fool of himself. Even Chilao, the IT genius, didn’t know how to represent the quantity “9” using base 2. I may be a real butthole, but you’re not going to find too many mathematicians in the US who have more ability than I do. That I can prove.

By NetBanker

March 8, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

And to throw my numbers into the mix: 43 on Mara, 16 on Monica

Back to work. I need to get outta here early today for the George Winston concert tonight. Anyone else going?

By By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

(Hint; I did make a small misstatement in September which no one caught).

Because NOBODY CARES BRUNO!!!!

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

*By By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

WWW, you better watch it too. You could be next. Why I might just spend countless hours trying to figure out who you are and get you fired too. In fact, I’m going to get all of you fired and then Kimberly will have to come to me.

In case anyone is concerned, this blog didn’t come from my computer. I have never threatened anyone outside of the blog. Only low-life Libs and POS “Christians” like chuck are into that kind of behavior. You want me gone from the blog, chuck?? No problem. Wouldn’t care to associate with you in real life anyway. The stench would be overwhelming.

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Could I find many mathematicians (or just general people for that matter) with better social skills than you? Um, yes, by the truck load. The point is: who cares about your “higher” math? Seems no one you know in real life is interested in talking to you about it, guess what, neither are we!

By Joe L

March 8, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

“Your imbecile buddy, Joe L tried to challenge me on a few simple things, like numeric representations using bases other than 10, but all he did was make a fool of himself. Even Chilao, the IT genius, didn’t know how to represent the quantity “9” using base 2”

Bwah! See I learned base conversions when I was in 8th grade so it was a bit of a distant memory. If you hang your amazing math prowess on the fact that you pulled out that chestnut, well I probably know about 100 people who put you to shame.

By Mara

March 8, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

By By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

(Hint; I did make a small misstatement in September which no one caught)

Because NOBODY CARES BRUNO!!!!

is the mongrel talking to himself..again?!

By DavidSpader

March 8, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

Remember my Bye Bye, Bye Bye skits on SNL?

By chuck

March 8, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

maybe for the rest of the week we should ALL post as “A Real Scientist”. That would really mess with his mind.

By Monica

March 8, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Dads have far better BS-O-Meters for seeing through young men than Moms do, IMO.

Actually, my mother was very good at seeing through the young men I dated/wanted to date! My dad just scared them to death by mentioning his shotgun in the garage!

Anyone else remember the days of dating before cell phones? My dad always made sure I had a quarter for the pay phones if necessary.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Could I find many mathematicians (or just general people for that matter) with better social skills than you? Um, yes, by the truck load. The point is: who cares about your “higher” math? Seems no one you know in real life is interested in talking to you about it, guess what, neither are we!

I can be sociable when I want to, WWW. Forgive me for being a little grouchy in my old age. I think 20+ years of kissing people’s a$$ as a chiropractor drained me of my sociability. At least temporarily.

As for your charge that no one in “real life” is interested in higher math—that may be true, but if it is, it’s a shame. The reason is that mathematics past the high school level is much more about the process of modeling (i.e. choosing the most appropriate model given certain parameters) than it is about numerical calculations. IMO, the ability to consider and select among different models is a skill that all people could benefit from. The first step is in recognizing that at the deepest level of “normal” thinking, we are relying on neurological networks to create accurate models by which we can make sense of the world. Of course, the wild card in the mix comes from our endocrine system: hormones. Those hormones often tend to override the “rational model” part of us.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Remember my Bye Bye, Bye Bye skits on SNL?

Well, at least someone is catching on.

Also, let the record be clear here on W2W: I have never threatened anyone outside of the blog, whereas both Chilao and chuck have. chuck has admitted to doing it in the past as well, and Chilao admitted storing up my home address on his computer for months before whipping it out the other day. If you’re looking for real creeps, think about the behavior of those guys. I’ve “bullied” a few bloggers here, but so friggin what? I’ve shown respect to the respectful bloggers such as Jack, Kevin, and 2D.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Actually, my mother was very good at seeing through the young men I dated/wanted to date! My dad just scared them to death by mentioning his shotgun in the garage!

That’s what I’m talking about, Monica. The shotgun is what works.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

chuck—any time you want to debate the Bible again, let me know. It was fun handing your jockey shorts to you in our previous debates when it turned out I knew more about the Bible than you do, and I’m not even a Christian.

Let me know when you want to debate homosexuality too chuck. I’m sure your three quotes from the Bible will impress everyone.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

If any of you want to see the power of hormones in action, look no further than kimberly’s blogs. Neither chuck, Jack, nor I have ever seen her, but we’re all fighting over her.

Can you guys imagine having to wrestle with those hormones in real life?? She’d be having every one of us fellows dancing her jig in no time. I think a few other unnamed lady bloggers are good at the manipulative games as well.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

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By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

The best models are those which ring true both philosophically and physically. For example, the concept of “duality” permeates Zen Buddhism. Many scoff at that idea as being “mystical”, but consider the fact that our thought process is literally a “dual” system. Our rational minds provide input as well as our hormones, then the two sides duke it out in the part of our brain that translates thoughts into actions. You’ve all heard the joke about the big head and the little head, haven’t you?

By WWW???

March 8, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

As for your charge that no one in “real life” is interested in higher math—that may be true, but if it is, it’s a shame.

No, you read wrong. No one in YOUR real life. Yours specifically, is interested in talking with you about it. That should tell you that you’re really not making any friends beating people over the head with your “superior knowledge” any more than most bible beaters (the ones you so viciously despise) are.

So all your Hyperbole would be better spent either on a Math blog or you could try, just try to stick to the topic. Or even discuss things off topic that are not so grossly Sexist on the WOMAN to WOMAN blog. We have to deal with enough of you Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde types in the real world why do you have to come on here and bully everyone? Does it make you feel like a real man?

By chuck

March 8, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

All this time I thought Chiropractors adjusted the SPINE. I know I’m not planning to go to one NOW THAT I KNOW WHAT THEY REALLY DO.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

DOGG, you are warped. I’m sure Kimberly is a great person, but I don’t have even the SLIGHTEST interest in her or any OTHER fictional person. This isn’t real goofball. It is a blog. You don’t know ANYTHING about me or jack or kimberly because you don’t know us. Maybe I’m really a 70 year-old retired entymologist, and Kim is actually a 17 year-old college student who likes messing with you. Maybe jack is an 80 pound accountant who likes to act like John Wayne on a blog.

Unfortunately because of your naivety we know way more about you than we want to. If you came here looking for relationships, you came to the wrong place. Try eharmony.com or some escort service.

If you don’t like how you are treated here…GO AWAY.

By kimberly

March 8, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

ACK! I’ve been in meetings all day. Thanks for chiming in on the topic, Chuck. As a teacher, you see kids amid their peers all day, and can probably pick out the at-risk ones quicker than most of us. We all like to think our own little darlings will be pure forever (like mine!) but statistically, that just can’t be true. Haven’t decided about the vaccine yet, but am leaning towards it. The idea of gov’t mandate troubles me, of course, but I agree that if they’re gonna mandate it, they’d better pay for it. I remember getting shots at school, back when Dinosaurs roamed the earth.

By Heloise

March 8, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

Helpful hint: Never trust the Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde types.

By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Get back to work, chuck. I’m paying your salary. You talk a mean game about integrity, but you steal from the taxpayers every week. In my office, I guarantee no one was blogging. We were too busy working.

By chuck

March 8, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

You’re welcome Kimberly. As I said, I like to know more about long term effects before I just jump into something. The advantage of having a lon-term relationship with a doctor is that they will be really up front with you. He shied us away from the other vaccine because he was not comfortable with it and I’m sure if we asked him he would give us good advice on this one. At the present time, I don’t plan on taking her to get the shots, but in the future I might. Ya’ll have a great evening…YOU TOO BRUCE.

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March 8, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

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By A Real Scientist

March 8, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

For my parting gift to you then, here is a list of the best math books for young people. If any of you have children who are struggling at all, these books will solve the problem. For those of you with gifted children, I recommend the same books as an introduction to what real math is about.

Pre-Algebra: “Vision In Elementary Mathematics” by W.W. Sawyer sets the foundation for algebra in the right way. The Teaching Company has a decent course on video called “Basic Math” as well.

Algebra: Whichever standard text is used by your teacher should be fine, most of them are. To get to a deeper understanding of the meaning of algebra, I strongly recommend “The Search For Patterns” by W.W. Sawyer alnog with “Algebra” by I. M. Gelfand. The Teaching Company Course “Algebra I” is pretty good.

Geometry: This is where y’all need to pay attention. First and foremost, Geometry should be taught before Algebra, not afterwards as is customarily done. Without a strong Geometric background, it is impossible to understand Higher Mathematics at all, especially Linear Algebra. The problem is, all of the standard High School textbooks suck, even the supposedly better ones like Jurgensen. I strongly recommend learning from the Barron Series book “Geometry The Easy Way” instead. Have your kids read it instead of their texts. They do the best job by far at laying out the concepts. Unfortunately, the Teaching Company course is poor, I don’t recommend it.

Algebra II/Trig: Unfortunately, all of the standard High School texts I’ve reviewed take a scattershot approach to this very important class which lays the foundation for Analytic Geometry. I strongly recommend supplementing whatever text they have with “Trigonometry” by I.M. Gelfand along with the classic “How To Solve It” by G. Polya.

Math IV/Precalculus: Three inexpensive Dover Series books are good, all co-authored by Gelfin: “Functions And Graphs”, “The Method of Coordinates” and “Sequences, Combinations, Limits”. It may be a little hard for many students, but “About Vectors” by Hoffman is the best intro the understanding vectors in a truly mathematical way on the market.

Calculus: Most Calculus texts are fairly standard at this point, but as a warm up I recommend “What Is Calculus About” by W.W. Sawyer. The Teaching Company course “Calculus” does a fairly good job of explaining the concepts of calculus, but not the mechanics.

Linear Algebra: The best Intro to Linear Algebra might be “The Four Pillars Of Geometry” by John Stillwell. Whatever text the teacher chooses should be supplemented by “Linear Algebra Through Geometry” even though this book is likely “harder” than most of the standard Linear Algebra Books.

Intro To Higher Mathematics: Layperson’s books which introduce the concepts of Higher Math include “The Mathematical Experience” by Davis and Hersh (beginner level), “A Path To Modern Mathematics” by W.W. Sawyer (intermediate level) and “Concepts of Modern Mathematics” by Stewart (advanced level).

Higher Mathematics: None of you will reach this level, but here are the best undergrad books/supplemental reading: “Calculus” by Michael Spivak, “Analysis” by Rudin, “Visual Complex Analysis” by Needham, “A Concrete Approach To Abstract Algebra” by W.W. Sawyer and Pinter’s “A Book of Abstract Algebra”, and finally “Rings, Fields, and “Vector Spaces” by Sethoroman. To put it all together and into action into the “real world”, I like “Geometry, Relativity, and the Fourth Dimension” by Rucker (beginner level), “The Shape of Space” by Weeks (intermediate), and “Geometry and the Imagination” by Hilbert (advanced level).

Finally: “The Road To Reality” by Roger Penrose maps out all of Physics once you are familiar with the Mathematics.

Good luck, all. Drop by and see me at HMC the next few years.

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March 9, 2007 7:24 AM | Link to this

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By lozen

March 9, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Why aren’t we all grateful to Doggie Doo for sharing his long list of math books with us. I don’t know about you all, but I am running right out and buying all the books because I want to be as smart (and as arrogant) as Doo Doo Dog. Not! It’s joke day Friday.

A lady inserted an ad in the classifieds: “Husband Wanted”. Next day she received a hundred letters. They all said the same thing: “You can have mine.”

By Jack

March 9, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Hi Lozen.

A husband and wife were sharing a bottle of wine when the husband said, “I’ll bet you can’t tell me something that will make me happy and sad at the same time.”

The wife thought for a few moments, then said, “Your pecker’s bigger than your brother’s.”

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Jack,

You pu$$ed out on me and did not show up after challenging me just as I knew you would.

Told you that you are just a big wu$$. Peace out.

By Jack

March 9, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this

I didn’t live this long being stupid. If I had met you and killed your stinkin butt I would have too much to lose. You ain’t worth it. Besides how do know I wouldn’t bring a gun? How would I know that you brought several friends to help you out. I will say this, if I’m out and about and see a freak in a top hat and combat boots I’ll introduce myself and then we’ll dance.

By Jack

March 9, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

SOCIAL SECURITY SEX

Two men were talking. “So, how’s your sex life?” “Oh, nothing special. I’m having Social Security sex.” “Social Security sex?” “Yeah, you know; I get a little each month, but not enough to live on!”

LOUD SEX

A wife went in to see a therapist and said, “I’ve got a big problem, doctor. Every time we’re in bed and my husband climaxes, he lets out this ear splitting yell.”

“My dear,” the shrink said, “that’s completely natural. I don’t see what the problem is.” “The problem is,” she complained, “it wakes me up!”

QUIET SEX

Tired of a listless sex life, the man came right out and asked his wife during a recent lovemaking session, “How come you never tell me when you have an orgasm?” She glanced at him casually and replied, “You’re never home!”

CONFOUNDED SEX

A man was in a terrible accident, and his “manhood” was mangled and torn from his body. His doctor assured him that modern medicine could give him back his manhood, but that his insurance wouldn’t cover the surgery since it was considered cosmetic. The doctor said the cost would be $3,500 for “small, $6,500 for “medium, $14,000 for “large.” The man was sure he would want a medium or large, but the doctor urged him to talk it over with his wife before he made any decision. The man called his wife on the phone and explained their options. The doctor came back into the room, and found the man looking dejected. “Well, what have the two of you decided?” asked the doctor. the man answered, “She’d rather remodel the kitchen.”

WEDDING ANNIVERSARY SEX

A husband and his wife had a bitter quarrel on the day of their 40th wedding anniversary. The husband yells, “When you die, I’m getting you a headstone that reads: ‘Here Lies My Wife-Cold As Ever’.” “Yeah,” she replies, “when you die, I’m getting you a headstone that reads: Here Lies My Husband - Stiff At Last.’”

WOMEN’S HUMOROUS SEX

My husband came home with a tube of K Y jelly and said, “This will make you happy tonight.”

He was right. When he went out of the bedroom, I squirted it all over the doorknobs. He couldn’t get back in.

ELDERLY SEX

One night an 87 year old woman came home from Bingo to find her 92 year old husband in bed with another woman. She became violent and ended up pushing him off the balcony of their 20th floor assisted living apartment . Killing him instantly. Brought before the court on charge of murder, the judge asked her if she had anything to say in her defense. She began coolly, “Yes, your honor, I figured that at 92, if he could have sex .. He could fly.”

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

If I had met you and killed your stinkin butt I would have too much to lose. You ain’t worth it. Besides how do know I wouldn’t bring a gun? How would I know that you brought several friends to help you out.

Those are the same risks I took. Just goes to show you have no ba!!s.

I will say this, if I’m out and about and see a freak in a top hat and combat boots I’ll introduce myself and then we’ll dance.

No. You will do the same thing, run like a child.

You seem used to making threats you cannot back up. We will call it what it was, you metaphorically kissing my a$$.

By Professional

March 9, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

The punk never showed, I was across the street just in case the punk brought his buds, but no fun-action for me that night.

I sure miss that dark-alley action.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Now for some more bs posturing:

The punk never showed, I was across the street just in case the punk brought his buds, but no fun-action for me that night.

You are full of it. Just a bunch of losers that have too much time and hot air in here.

BTW - Jack is really a Jill, Y’all.

By Jack

March 9, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Yeah. And you are one smart cookie. Made any dates with 12 year olds on the internet? That’s a safe thing to do also.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Made any dates with 12 year olds on the internet?

You are one sick person to have such notions on the top of your head. Must be a topic you visit often to be the first thing coming to your mind.

By kimberly

March 9, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

Hey Jack! I’m just trying to ignore the personal insults. Is it working? How are you? Taking Mrs. Jack out somewhere nice this weekend?

By Jack

March 9, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Hi Sweetness. If it’s warm enough we’re going to take a ride on the motorbike to the hills and go eat at the Dillard House. If it’s not warm enough for that we will just keep warm. :) Hope you have a good weekend. :)

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By Jack

March 9, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Forgot to say thanks for getting my back Dog.

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By Mara

March 9, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

anybody catch Craaaaaazy Zell’s most recent insane babble? Seems like he thinks that if all the w*******-ish liberal women hadn’t aborted all their sweet widdle baybees, we wouldn’t have any shortage of cannon fodder…er, I mean “soldiers” for Bush’s war. Nor would we be having the problem with illegal aliens or social security.

Maybe he knew it was Joke Friday….

Hi Jack.

By NetBanker

March 9, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Happy Friday, kids!! Is it time for cocktails, yet?

An attorney and a blonde are sitting next to each other on a flight from Los Angeles to New York. The attorney asks if she would like to play a fun game.

The blonde is tired and just wants to take a nap, so she politely declines and rolls over to the window to catch a few winks. The attorney persists. He explains how the game works.

“I ask you a question, and if you don’t know the answer, you pay me, and vice-versa.”

Again the blonde politely declines and tries to get some sleep. The attorney figures that since his opponent is a blonde he will easily win the match, so he makes another offer.

“If you don’t know the answer, you pay me only $5.00, but if I don’t know the answer, I will pay you $500.”

The blonde figures there will be no end to this torment unless she plays, so she agrees. The attorney asks, “What’s the distance from the Earth to the moon?”

The blonde reaches in to her purse, pulls out a five dollar bill, and hands

it to the attorney. Then she asks the attorney, “What goes up a hill with three legs, and comes down with four?”

The attorney is puzzled. He uses his laptop to search for references. He taps into the air-phone with his modem and searches the Net and the Library

of Congress. Frustrated, he sends emails to his coworkers and friends. No luck. After an hour, he gives up.

He wakes the blonde and hands her $500.00. The blonde politely takes the $500.00 and turns away to get back to sleep. The attorney,who is going nuts trying to figure it out, wakes the

blonde and asks, “Well, so, what goes up a hill with three legs and comes down with four?”

The blonde reaches into her purse, hands the attorney $5.00, and goes back to sleep.

By Mara

March 9, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

anybody catch Craaaaaazy Zell’s most recent insane babble? Seems like he thinks that if all the w*******-ish liberal women hadn’t aborted all their sweet widdle baybees, we wouldn’t have any shortage of cannon fodder…er, I mean “soldiers” for Bush’s war. Nor would we be having the problem with illegal aliens or social security.

Maybe he knew it was Joke Friday….

Hi Jack.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Forgot to say thanks for getting my back Dog.

Anytime, Jack. Who in the hell is this JokesOn person?? If you’re threatening Jack, you’ll have me to deal with as well, loser.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

This blog has really gone to pot with all of the outside of the blog threats coming from chuck and the wacko Libs here. Some folks have a hard time separating reality from fiction, I guess. Forgive my surprise at this behavior, I’ve never blogged before. Actually, the anonymity is very strange to me, it seems more natural to be able to put a face with a name.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

And as for the name stealing: Yes, I copied chuck’s name 6 months ago as a joke, but I made it obvious it was me doing it (he wasn’t around). Since then, I’ve had my blog names copied many times, Chilao had his taken, and who else? Jack one time before that I can remember. I know it’s not a conservative poster doing all this.

P.S. If any of you have a child who doesn’t grasp math as well as they should, please consider the books on the list from yesterday. You know they are great if they have the DOG Seal of Approval. You don’t have to tell me about or give me any credit in the least. I don’t care about that. I’m more concerned with helping young people learn how to think properly about math.

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By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Who in the hell is this JokesOn person?? If you’re threatening Jack, you’ll have me to deal with as well, loser.

Looks like I am being offered a Ménage à trois, seeing as you two are a couple pu$$ies.

I am not dealing with more posturing, mkay? It is obvious your only outlet to be the men you wish you were is on a blog.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I am not dealing with more posturing, mkay?

Could you at least identify yourself and tell us what your beef is?? What could any blogger say that would drive you over the edge, JokesOn?

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

FYI. It was Jack who engaged me. All the while thinking I was you ,Dog:

By Jack

March 2, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Hahahaha! I’ll meet your sorry a anytime and we’ll see who has spine limp stick.*

And then he was the one that had no spine to show up.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

What are you talking about JokesOn?? I don’t remember Jack calling anyone out, let alone me. Jack’s a cool guy. You shouldn’t have a beef with him. If I insulted you, I’m sorry, ok? It’s just a blog, dude.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

limp stick? You mean the Pointed Stick blogger? What other names have you used?

By Jack

March 9, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

I knew it wasn’t Dog you POS. Dog has more class and brains than you do. Maybe we will cross paths one day but I’m not stupid enough to meet someone via the blog. Hurl all the insults you want if it makes you feel better.

By Jack

March 9, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

I did last Friday Dog. I let him pi$$ me off. I am not sorry. He was insulting everyone on the blog. No worry. JokesOn is just a fluffer.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

JokesOn is the only name I have used except for the preceeding JokeIsOnYou or something like that.

I sometimes read the bs that occurs on this blog on my day off (friday). I have not ever posted until this last friday.

When Jack challenged me to meet, I figured what the heck. I am a very big guy and pretty scary looking to boot who is not afraid of getting or giving a good a$$ kicking.

But now my point was proven, I am tired of the acting he does. There was one person in front of the old star bar that kept eyeing me, and they were female. I am thinking it was in fact Jack, but it could have been one of his boyfriends.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

That’s right Jack. Pucker up for Dog’s butt. It is what you do best.

Peace out.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

I will say that there have actually been some very good Dog imitators on board the last few months. No, not the clowns who steal my name directly. I’m talking about Kepler, Lobertron, etc. Good job, guys. Just don’t pick any fights on my behalf, will you? I do a good enough job on my own.

Pointed Stick—let it go with Jack. The weather is too nice to be fighting. As for me, I’ll be in California in a few months. The airfare will be to expensive to look me up.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

I did last Friday Dog. I let him pi$$ me off. I am not sorry. He was insulting everyone on the blog.

I’ll have to check that out, Jack. I know you feel protective toward the lady bloggers here.

Dog has more class and brains than you do.

Wow, at least I’m ahead of 1 person! Thanks, Jack, you made my day!

I’m not stupid enough to meet someone via the blog.

You’re probably right that anonymity is best, Jack, but don’t you ever get curious what folks look like?? Especially some of the hot female bloggers. I’ll treat for dinner anytime you guys want to have a big W2W pow-wow. Just no guns, ok?

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Pointed Stick—let it go with Jack.

Not my moniker and I already won my $50 by getting Jack to kiss the a$$ of the guy that insults his blog-sweetheart, so I am done here.

All a fun exercise in how easily you all are manipulated.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

There was one person in front of the old star bar that kept eyeing me, and they were female. I am thinking it was in fact Jack, but it could have been one of his boyfriends.

Alright!! I’ve been to the Star Bar a million times, dude!! I got a couple of my tattoos at Sacred Heart. You probably got yours at Black Cat. Last time I was in L5P I think they were gone. Ah, the good old days. I remember a couple of scary looking guys back then. I’ve probably seen you. A couple of good friends of mine were in a band called the Grapes who used to play L5P all the time in the early 90s.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

I’ve probably seen you.

Probably, I ran door there for a little while: 6’3, 265lbs and bald.

I know The Grapes very well. Very good Greatful Dead’ish band.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Wow—I just checked out last Friday—I missed all the action. Jack, that was a good one “What color dress will you be wearing?”.

I think maybe! That Bruno, Dog, whatever.. now he is one sick puppy.

I wasn’t around last week, whoever thought that was Dog on Friday. You guys need to stretch your imaginations a little. There’s more than one Dog in the world. I’m just a chihuahua—this Jokes On You guy sounds like a Rottweiler.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

I am a very big guy and pretty scary looking to boot who is not afraid of getting or giving a good a$$ kicking.

I think we have a UFC fan on board. Anyone remember “Tank” Abbott? Now that’s a guy I wouldn’t want to meet in a dark alley. I’m more of a Hoyt Gracie type of fighter. I wrestled in H.S.—the guy I had to wrestle off every week was a guy named Ricky Dellagata, who went on to become one of the greatest amateur wrestlers ever. Let’s just say my record against Ricky was unimpressive. I did see him kick some big football player’s butt one time. That was funny.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

I know The Grapes very well.

Charlie and Raman will vouch for me then, JokesOn. I won’t name my best friend here, but I’ve probably seen you at his house as well.

By Akagi

March 9, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Mara:

Yes I did catch Zell’s comments. He made a number of assumptions that are very suspect. 1) He assumes all the babies not aborted would be productive members of society. Since these babies were obviously not wanted and not all could have been adopted, many no doubt would end up in less than optimum situations. Many of these aborted babies no doubt would also have ended up as a drain on society. So how positive an impact their births would have been on society is a point of debate. 2) The US military is an all-volunteer force. So it is suspect to claim that a decrease in abortions would automatically increase the numbers in the US military. 3) Illegal aliens come to the US to work since their own country (usually Mexico which accounts for 65% of all illegals in the US) can’t produce enough jobs to sustain its population or to engage in criminal acts. Neither of which would be impacted by a decrease in abortions in the US. Now a drastic increase in abortions in Mexico WOULD have a direct impact on the illegal alien problem eventually, but a decrease in abortions in the US would not.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

JokesOn—your nickname isn’t “Tiny”, is it? I might know you, guy. I’m a lot cooler in person than I’ve been on the blog. I’ll have to straighten up now that some of my friends are here.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Charlie and Raman will vouch for me then, JokesOn. I won’t name my best friend here, but I’ve probably seen you at his house as well.

Hmmm. Will have to talk to Ted and see if he knows you.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

Well, back to work. Thanks for putting up with me, all. I’ve got to spend all my time studying from here on out to get ready to return to Mudd. See you in L5P, Tiny.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Will have to talk to Ted and see if he knows you.

I met Ted a few times, he might remember me. A few weeks ago I ran into Steve, their sound man, as well as Danny, a member of the original Dreadful Grapes, on a movie set. “Liszt For President”.

By JokesOn

March 9, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

I’ll have to straighten up now that some of my friends are here.

I won’t call you out in public either way, so do not worry. But I may drill you on the blog on fridays, but one has to share the wealth, ya know?

Besides, there is no integrity on this blog, as you have seen. Couple that with the lack of any deeper thought processes/synthesis and you have your standard Georgia idiot.

your nickname isn’t “Tiny”, is it? Naw, but still probably ran into each other since our circles overlap.

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Maybe I will miss Atlanta after all…I met a lot of cool folks here over the years. Are you all going to miss me?

By A Real Scientist

March 9, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

Have a great weekend—and Life—, all. What is the name of your band, JokesOn? I’ll have to check you guys out. Another friend of mine, Rick B, has his own recording studio. I’ll have to hook you guys up.

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