AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2006 > November > 29 > Entry
Does our culture give men enough credit for all of the work that they do?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
For years, women have viewed men as not doing their fair share around the house. Gloria Steinem famously remarked that men today have one job but women have two. This perception was cemented by Arlie Hochschild’s 1989 best-seller The Second Shift, which described men as lazy couch-loungers who left women to work a “second shift” at home with little help.
The problem is that the data simply doesn’t support this notion. While our cultural perception might indeed be accurate in some specific, unfortunate instances, it is deeply unfair to men overall. In fact, other than Hochschild’s very flawed study (which, for example, didn’t even count the sort of chores typically done by men), all the research of the past few decades has shown men steadily assuming more and more of the household load. And several enterprising studies show that when “men’s chores” are accounted for, and paid and unpaid work are compared, the overall male/female load is almost exactly equal … and has been for the past forty years.
In fact, in the book Changing Rhythms of American Family Life, Dr. Suzanne Bianchi and fellow researchers from the University of Maryland recently analyzed national surveys dating back to 1965. They found that when paid and unpaid time spent on supporting families with children was counted – whether via jobs or chores – both spouses tended to work about 65 hours a week.
In an interview, Dr. Bianchi said our cultural perceptions are outdated. “We still have some sense that men don’t do their fare share, but while they don’t do the same work as women, they are often doing the same amount – or even more. It is misleading to account for only work in the home. To provide in the marketplace is also important for the family. And when there are kids, moms work more unpaid hours, but dads work more paid hours and both are quite busy. It is a relatively equal load when you add both up.”
I often think that it must be incredibly frustrating to be a man in this culture, and be given so little credit for their efforts. Just as women would wither under a chronic lack of recognition, it’s in our best interest to realize that men need that recognition, too.
Rebuttal
When quoting a 1970s feminist and citing a 1980s study, the data more than supports the premise that men aren’t doing “their fair share of work around the house.” And guess what? It’s still true in 2006.
“Little real or meaningful change” has occurred in the division of domestic chores. A 2004 study in The Journal of Men’s Studies, found that women are still “responsible for the bulk of domestic labor,” despite the growing number of women in the workforce.
But something tells me Shaunti already knew this. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have set up the topic as if it’s all about men rolling up their sleeves around the house, and then leave us hanging with a dry, quantitative analysis of absolute work hours, in a feeble attempt to convince us feminists that we’re all just a bunch of whiners.
Shaunti wants you to believe that the sexes have reached workload nirvana and we’re all on equal footing. If you’re talking quantity, this may be true. But the problem with the Bianchi study is that it supports the false notion of gender equanimity in the workplace and ignores vital quality of life issues concerning poverty, pay and a woman’s worth. If we want to throw up our hands in disgust, we should question why women aren’t recognized for their emotional work, not pretend that the sexes are equal after a session of bean-counting.
There is something more important than quantity. It’s called quality. Women are more likely to end up in poverty than men, simply because many women don’t clock the majority of their hours in an office. As a result, their career opportunities, financial gain and, ultimately, their worth, are worthless on the open market, however priceless they may be deemed in the community.
This is why comparing apples to oranges doesn’t cut it. Caretaking doesn’t pay but work at a company not only pays but it offers benefits, maybe a 401k and a promise of career advancement. Men get plenty of credit for their work. They make up the majority of company CEOs, CIOs and CFOs.
Do men really need coddling at the expense of the big picture? Or is Shaunti’s mothering instinct in overdrive?
Comments
By Mara
December 4, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this
I gotta shake my head at this topic. Data shows that men no longer just go to work and then come home, plop down in the easy chair and holler for the “little woman” to bring him a beer. Hoooray for Men! Let’s give ‘em all medals for helping with the dishes, doing the vacuuming or even (gasp!) spending time with the kiddies! Let’s throw all these poor, self-sacrificing martyrs a ticker-tape parade…just to say “Thanks for helping maintain the family home” of course.
Sorry, I’m waxing a bit sarcastic this morning. It just seems silly to me that W2W would even have this as a topic. As I’ve said before, my husband and I share almost all our chores (If he’d let me ride that damned lawnmower we’d share ‘em all!). But do I thank my husband for cleaning the pool? About as often as he thanks me for taking out the garbage. Do I thank him for making dinner when I’m tired out? About as often as he thanks me for folding and putting the laundry away. Should he expect gratitude for picking up after himself or doing stuff around our shared domicile? Shaunti might as well ask if women are getting the recognition THEY deserve for working a job and taking care of their domestic tasks too. EVERYBODY has responsibilities and if we took the time to thank everyone who met those obligations, yeah we’d be a better society…but we’d never get anything done.
I’m glad my sweetie isn’t one of those “Archie Bunker” types who thinks his wife should cater to his every need, but I don’t think he needs to be THANKED for not being an jackass.
By Archie
December 4, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this
Wow I agree with Shanti on this topic and Diane’s response is kinda of weak. I can definitely say I get frustrated with the credit given for my efforts. Diane goes into poverty, and a woman’s worth but what about a man’s worth and men in poverty? Shanti clearly talks about chores and the workplace and Diane discusses something else because she can’t effectively argue against Shanti this time. Overall I agree with Diane most of the time but on this subject I agree with Shanti 100 percent.
By Chilao
December 4, 2006 09:36 AM | Link to this
Coming from a large-family, where there was just too much work to be done, and it was not divided along gender lines, since us boys learned to be proficient with the kitchen, laundry, and general housekeeping and my sisters learned all about raking leaves, mowing the lawn, and ruuning the rotor-tiller, I have to be going HUH on this topic, since I am certain all us kids thank our parents profusely for raising us to be self-sufficient in the taking-care-of-ourselves department, in every way.
But I have to ask who is responsible for raising boys to be pampered and so incapable of taking care of themselves that they end up being basically slobs, having to eat every meal out, if the little woman did not make a lunch for them. (Yes, I have had room-mates over the years…LOL).
For example, the fast-food ad where the guy is so incompetent, he cannot open the bread and toast it correctly without getting it all over the floor. Who raised him to be so incompetent? LMAO.
since both spouses work 65 hours per week, per the study, what exactly is the problem here? Men aren’t getting Medals or something?
By lozen
December 4, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this
Arlie Hochschild’s 1989 best-seller The Second Shift, which described men as lazy couch-loungers who left women to work a “second shift” at home with little help. This was a best seller? I never heard of it! Anybody remember this “best seller”? And several enterprising studies show that when “men’s chores” are accounted for, and paid and unpaid work are compared, the overall male/female load is almost exactly equal … and has been for the past forty years. This I find quite difficult to believe. Does our culture give anyone enough credit for all the work they do? How does a culture give us credit?
By Mara
December 4, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this
Chilao - LOL! Yes, according to Shaunti, that’s exactly the problem.
BTW, you and I seem to have had the same kind of upbringing. I’m guessing that has a lot to do with just expecting ones partner to do their fair share, no matter what the task is. To be fair to the poor slobs you mentioned who couldn’t toast bread…I’ve known some women who could neither change a flat tire nor fix a leaky faucet. I just don’t know how those types manage in life. I really don’t.
By Renee
December 4, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this
Another great topic.
Good comment Chilao!!
By Mara
December 4, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
My personal experience doesn’t lend itself well to this debate, for reasons previously given. However, I do know women who often tell of being up far into the evening just trying to keep up with their domestic tasks.
Does spending 16-or-so hours over the course of a weekend doing yard and home maintenance equal the 3-or-so hours of extra housework these women claim to do every day, even if the total workload comes out about the same?
By RectilinearPropagation
December 4, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
“Diane goes into poverty, and a woman’s worth but what about a man’s worth and men in poverty?”
It sounds like you didn’t understand Diane’s rebuttal at all. She is saying that men’s work is valued more than women’s and men are less likely to go into poverty because more of what they do occurs in the workforce as opposed to domestic work, which women are more likely to do. Her response is not weak and clearly addresses Shaunti’s argument that men and women are doing the same amount of work.
Her point, which you seemed to have missed, is that doing the same amount of work does not make two people equal if their work is not equally valued.
By Troglodyke
December 4, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
Ahhhh. This topic just makes me even more thankful to be a lesbian. Both of us work outside the home, and we split evenly all the work inside the home. It’s an equal distribution if there ever was one. I get to “be a wife” and “have a wife” all at the same time.
Plus, now that I’ve had a hysterectomy, the old saw, “But what happens when both of you are ‘surfin’ the crimson tide’ simultaneously?” doesn’t apply to us.
Life is good.
By kimberly
December 4, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
Dear Men, Thank you for all you do. Please do not wither under a chronic lack of recongnition. Snerk.
Please come over and tame my jungle of a yard, fix the spackling on the kitchen ceiling, and replace the cat-defiled carpet in my sun room, and I promise to show you how much I appreciate your efforts! Haha!
By Monica
December 4, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
There is always someone who doesn’t get deserved recognition, and someone who gets recognition unfairly. Why bring gender into the picture? We ALL deserve credit for the work we do!
By lozen
December 4, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
Yeah Mara, I know women who tell me stories too! Some men, according to my informants, give themselves credit for a lot more than they actually do. I know my ex seems to think he did a lot of child care (he said “I never minded changing a diaper!”) when I don’t remember him doing much at all. Yes, he worked extra jobs and long hours, and he got a lot of recognition and praise for that from our families. Did I get any recognition for being on call 24 hours a day seven days a week? No. Housework and childcare just weren’t highly valued. I don’t think it’s changed that much, although there has been a lot of “oh woe are we” when women work and have caregivers taking care of their children!
By Chilao
December 4, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
See, us guys are Trophy-Oriented, we have the trophy-big-game-heads on the wall, the trophy vehicle, the trophy wife, the I won, I won! mindset(I have more whateva than you do), we just need a nice plaque or medal to hang in our game rooms for doing some dishes or other traditionally femme jobs.
Is that really too much to ask?
By TramadoL27785
December 4, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
Not much on my mind lately. My life’s been completely boring these days. I’ve just been hanging out not getting anything done. So it goes.
By lozen
December 4, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
Chilao, funny! I’m going to look into manufacturing that plaque or medal!
By Archie
December 4, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Lozen, there are many women that just don’t do housework according to guys all across the country. Some of the women here share the work with their man quite well(see Mara). I straight out compliment Mara but there are so many women that don’t do their fair share and what Shanti is getting at is why not recognize the men in those situations. I know a situation where the guy rakes the yard,cuts the grass, then cooks and cleans but the spouse washes the clothes. That’s not even. Also the reason I understand Shanti so well on this topic is because of a radio show hosted by M Baisden. When the guys called in they complained about the way their spouses did housework amongst other things. Some women are held up as heroines for going to school and managing a household but if a guy does the same thing, oh well. I think this is a good topic because people who claim not to care about gender actually do when it comes to criticism and praise. Until you can look at things from the other side you have no idea how it gets on one’s nerves to hear criticism constantly but never be recognized as Shanti says. So many guys won’t write in but I know there are plenty of men glad to get dinner bought for them on father’s day and their birthday. Some recognition is better than nothing.
By WorkAtHome
December 4, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
What bugs me about both women is they confine their arguments to classical role-play for men and for women. (Lets not mention the fact more single parents are raising children these days). Don’t they realize there are women and men who have switched roles and HE is raising the rugrats and she is working because she got the better paying job/insurance/perks? Or what about both persons working from home? Or what about women that never have children, never make the corporate treadmill and don’t regret it? The urgency to be a CEO that Diane has for women to strive for ignores the truth women (and men!) are turning away from corporate career demands after watching their dads, super-moms and aunts be disemboweled by work! Diane ignores the 21st century truth jobs are not a secure given for men or women and unemployment affects duty-sharing more than classic gender role-play.
As far as men not getting credit for all the stuff they do at home sounds like Shaunti got the idea at Home Depot. Remember that romantic commercial of wife going on a business meeting and husband re-tiles the bathroom? O to live in such perfect fantasy (a. that it would be finished before she got home (chuckle) and b. that grout would not be spread from that end of the house to the dryer c. all men know by osmosis how to re-tile a bathroom d. all men are handy.
They can spew all the statistics they want out of books but these two columnists write TV fantasy when they picture the reality of the average Joe and Jane at home; they don’t seem to have a clue how people function.
By Monica
December 4, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
I know a situation where the guy rakes the yard,cuts the grass, then cooks and cleans but the spouse washes the clothes. That’s not even.
That’s not necessarily true. How many kids do they have? Laundry is quite consuming; our laundry didn’t double with children; it quadrupled! My husband also works out every day, so that’s two changes of clothes to wash per day, just for one person. HOw many times a week does the yard need to be raked or the grass cut? Laundry needs to be done much more frequently (unless you’re rich and have tons of clothes and underwear).
By NetBanker
December 4, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
I’m right there with Chilao and Mara on this topic although I grew up in a small family. My mother was on the only female in our house (with the exception of the dog and the guinea pig who were no help with chores at all) so there were no gender specific roles. My brother and I had responsibilities to clean house, help with the dishes, care for the vegetable garden and lawn, etc. My father did some of the cooking (breakfast every morning and some meals on weekends) and usually took off during our break from school during Christmas to care for us. Before we went away to college she taught us how to do laundry and we got to practice for a month before school started to make sure we got it right…including how to iron a shirt, sew on a button, and stitch up small tears in clothing. In the end, my parents sent their boys out into the world fully capable of caring for themselves.
Now the kid across the street was another matter. He earned a $5 weekly allowance for walking the dog. His single mother catered to his every need and he went out into the world knowing how to make a sandwich at best.
By Brian Curtis
December 4, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
Sheesh, what a minor topic. Housework is both overrated and under-appreciated at the same time.
I live alone, I keep my house relatively clean, and I’m sure Martha Stewart would not approve of my living standards. (I can go for WEEKS without vacuuming.) Housework is a minor nuisance, to be taken care of when necessary; for major projects such as renovations and repairs, I hire a professional.
Is this truly the major sticking point among couples that we’re making it out to be? SHOULD it be?
By Monica
December 4, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
Is this truly the major sticking point among couples that we’re making it out to be? SHOULD it be?
That’s why I’m an advocate of pre-marital counseling. If she is a slob and he can’t stand being around a dirty house because his mother kept their house spotless, then maybe they need to know this before getting married! Minor issues become battlegrounds.
By Mara
December 4, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Archie - what a nice thing to say! Thank you. Not only is it more fun to do chores together, it takes half the time! Which means we have more time to relax together.
Monica - if two people are getting married without knowing that one’s a neat-freak and the other a slob…I think they might have more than a “minor issue”! LOL!
I’m right there with you on pre-marital counciling, though. Too many people get married without discussing the important things (like finances, children, etc) let alone the picayune details like domestic hygeine. I had a co-worker a few years ago in the midst of a divorce. He was pretty embarrassed to admit that he hadn’t known his (soon-to-be) ex never wanted to have children of her own. After all, he said, she was so good with his neices that he just assumed…
And well stated in the 1:23 post regarding chores that need to be done frequently (like laundry) versus stuff done once a week (or less)
By NetBanker
December 4, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
That’s why I’m an advocate of pre-marital counseling…Minor issues become battlegrounds.
That’s an excellent point, Monica! I kind of knew that cleaning house wasn’t a strong suit or priority of my partner, but it wasn’t until we started living together that I found out the extent to which he didn’t clean, didn’t cook, didn’t do dishes, and never intended to do those things. While minor by individual instance over time annoyances all start to wear on you and can result in a major battle (and boy did we have some). I learned to let some things go (squeezing from the middle of the tube, never the bottom) as not a big deal in the grand scheme of life and to be creative on others (all toothpaste and shampoo containers MUST have a flip cap because that way the cap IS always on) so the situation(s) that irked me could no longer occur. He has done the same (of course it was easier for him because I’m almost perfect ~grin~)
As WorkAtHome points out roles are not as static as they used to be. At the beginning of my relationship I definitely did more of the ‘second shift’ at home work than did he and he earned more than I. Then he left the corporate world to start his own business which meant he had less income and less time to contribute to household chores due to building the business. Heck, I had less time because I was helping him out a couple of evenings a week and many Saturdays). In the past couple of years my corporate job has taken off so I’m earning significantly more and working more hours, but that has allowed him to cut back on his work so he could pick up more of the cooking, cleaning, laundry chores.
doing the same amount of work does not make two people equal if their work is not equally valued Good point! Shaunti’s premise is based on the number of hours worked which not only doesn’t consider how the work is valued, but not even whether the work is comparable. IMO, 65 hours working as a nurse isn’t comparable to 65 hours working at The Gap.
By Getitright
December 4, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this
Geez, Diane and Shaunti, GET A GRIP. Best advice I ever got about being married is that it is NOT a 50/50 proposition, but 100% from both. It matters not who does the dishes or tends the kids or mows the lawn - only that it gets done. This morning I separated the laundry and started a load before leaving for work. Between the two of us, we’ll finish it up before bed time and still manage to work out supper and listen to the teenage practice her chorus solo. The best couples do what needs to get done as a team. Only idiots spend time counting up hours and value.
By DamnTheMan
December 4, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
The most idiotic part of this column is Dianne’s tired old fembot statistic that there are more male than female CEOs. What percentage of the population works as a CEO? .01 percent? Most CEOs are ivey league grads that came from wealthy families, is that suppose to be unfair to the rest of us? Both of these twits tend to fall back on tired old boiler-plate quotes when they can’t back up thier opinion. Is that because they’re women or just lazy columnists?
By Monica
December 4, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Net, Bless your heart, you have OCD like me! I can’t stand it if the toothpaste is squeezed from the middle! LOL :)
I agree with you on the nurse/Gap statement (unless the 65 hour week includes the day after Thanksgiving for the “Gapper!”)
By Chilao
December 4, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
OCD? is that fancy clinical speak for anally-retentive? LMAO
people actually squeeze from the middle of the tube and do not roll up from the end? GASP
By Chilao
December 4, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this
GetItRight had a great point, read between the lines, it means a relationship is a Partnership, not a ScoreBoard.
By Justin
December 4, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
It goes back to the issue that some women want men to be perfect even if the women aren’t. Archie, I agree with your comments.
By TramadoL16281
December 4, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this
I just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL88026
December 4, 2006 11:06 PM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen, but I don’t care. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL92547
December 5, 2006 01:33 AM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home not getting anything done. I guess it doesn’t bother me. Shrug. I haven’t been up to anything. I haven’t gotten much done today.
By TramadoL51002
December 5, 2006 01:34 AM | Link to this
I just don’t have anything to say right now. I haven’t been up to anything recently, but it’s not important. I’ve just been sitting around waiting for something to happen, but shrug.
By TramadoL84931
December 5, 2006 02:25 AM | Link to this
I haven’t been up to anything recently, but so it goes. Such is life. What can I say? Pretty much not much exciting going on to speak of. I haven’t gotten much done lately, but I don’t care.
By Chica
December 5, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this
It only becomes an issue when the other person is doing all of the housework, shopping & laundry, AND holding down a full time job. I don’t even remember a time when my husband scrubbed a bathtub or cleaned a bathroom floor. Dishes only ever so often. Forget using the vacuum. After a while you give up on asking, so resentment happens. I shouldn’t have to ask another to do their fair share.
By Archie
December 5, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Chica, Shanti is essentially flipping the script because there are men that do what you describe at 8:48 am. Shanti is only asking that we recognize that. You are right that resentment happens. As I said yesterday I someone that cooks and cleans and does yard work but the spouse does laundry. That’s not even. People focused on the weekly yard work and forgot about the daily cooking and cleaning or just general picking up. All Shanti is doing is flipping the script and saying let’s give guys some credit and I think that’s a good thing. I do know of one other couple other than Mara and her spouse that do the housework together but most couples have one person(male or female) doing more than the other as far as the chores. Let’s face it we hear the negatives about men often but all Shanti is saying is let’s recognize the positive. We don’t need a plaque or a ticker tape parade just a little recognition would be nice. Mara keep up the good work because a lot of people in the South were raised up with gender roles in mind, even those that are feminist. They have a problem recognizing men because they want the focus on themselves. Selfishness is just one of the causes of divorce and we know about it on the male side but we are slow to acknowledge it on the female side.
By Renee
December 5, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
I do most of the housework. But when my partner does it she wants some recognition in lights or something. She calls me to announce WHAT she has cleaned, WHY she has cleaned, and asks WHY had nobody else done it…
If I praised myself for every time I cooked and cleaned, I would spend ALL my friggin time praising myself, LOL. I don’t think it’s a male/female issue, but a couple issue… I’m just way more domestic…
By kimberly
December 5, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
Felix Unger is my dream man. Yes, the nagging and scolding would be constant, I know, but I’ve been married. I know how to nod, smile, and tune it out. Knowing everything in the ‘fridge was edible, dust never accumulates, the litter box is fresh & clean and the dry cleaning never gets left or lost…. PRICELESS! FELIX, where are you?
By Fatmose
December 5, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
And then you have those people that when they DO clean or work on something they totally f**k it up.
Relationships are just plain hard, especially when with someone who is not a match outside of the sack.
Love is not the answer to everything, but some are inclined to think so.
By Aquagirl
December 5, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
I saw an interesting point on a news show (I think it was 20/20) which followed a couple for a week. She said she did most of the stuff around the house. He disagreed. So what basically came out a week was that first, The guy didn’t do as much as he thought he did. He almost unconsciously thought the dishes, laundry, etc. did themselves. Not that he was a bad guy, but being a guy, he just didn’t notice how much work she was doing. Once he really focused for a week, it was a real eye-opener.
But the more telling point was that she did time-sensitive jobs. Cooking has to be done in a fairly fixed time-frame. Mowing the lawn…you can do that most any time that your neighbors won’t complain. Same thing with picking up the kids when sick, etc. That IMHO, may account for some of the increased stress of women with home/work responsibilities.
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Anybody see the PostSecrets last week that showed a 1950s-style woman(Leave it to Beaver’s Mom?) announcing she has discovered the absolutely neatest kitchen tool, as it shows her smashing plates with a hammer?
Someone had written on the post card, “Rather than washing dishes, I just throw them away and buy new ones”. LOL
Large families I know actually primarily use PAPER plates to solve all of that.
By Fatmose
December 5, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Aqua, Not that he was a bad guy, but being a guy,
This goes both ways….trust me;)
I agree though that appreciation is a function of actually knowing what needs to be done; first and foremost. Many people either are not raised that way or resisted (successfully) until moving out of mom/dads place.
By Archie
December 5, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
Love is not the answer to everything, but some are inclined to think so.
That is so true FatMoose.
I do most of the housework. But when my partner does it she wants some recognition in lights or something. She calls me to announce WHAT she has cleaned, WHY she has cleaned, and asks WHY had nobody else done it…
Renee that’s what guy’s go thru all the time. It may not be a male/female issue but it sure seems as if women get credit in “lights” for going to school while working,doing laundry, picking up the kid, cooking and cleaning, but when it’s a man that’s doing that, well that’s just what he is supposed to do. Of course I know men can be slack and we get recognized for that but when it’s the other way around people tend to use gender as a reason to bash them.
By Fatmose
December 5, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
Good post Archie.
It seems that in general there are people that look through two types of glass and all is filtered by that glass. Basically, you have givers and takers on both sides of the fence.
Also, a couple needs to be equally yoked in those day-to-day events. Whether they be church, housework, or deviant sex;) None of the gradients of yoked-ness are necessarily good or bad (with the possible exception what is passed onto the children which is a totally different conversation).
By Fatmose
December 5, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
Chilao,
Large families I know actually primarily use PAPER plates to solve all of that.
(On the equally yoked notion) The problem occurs when one partner believes it needed to have nice stoneware, but wants both to tend to it.
By FatMoose
December 5, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
(Had to correct my alias: Mose->Moose;)
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
FatMose - there is another poster here by the name of FatMoose to you might want to change your moniker so we don’t get them confused.
hahahahahahahahah
(LMAO)
By FatMoose
December 5, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this
Chilao,
You do know that I am FatMoose, no?
By Monica
December 5, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this
Relationships are just plain hard, especially when with someone who is not a match outside of the sack. Love is not the answer to everything, but some are inclined to think so.
If the only match a couple has is in the sack, your statement should read, “Sex is not the answer to everything, but some are inclined to think so.” :)
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
FM - duh, is your sense of humour having a cold today? LOL that time of year and all. (for colds)
it was just funny you corrected your moniker, like us “morons” would not figure it out. LOL. (“well, that looked like FatMoose but since it was *FatMose, must be someone else*”)
now, I am not implying you directly were looking at us as morons, Ima justa sayin’….
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
to directly answer, YES, I knew it was you, that is why it was so funny.
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
sorry, “to” on my 12:16 should have been “so”
I have a typing cold.
By FatMoose
December 5, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
Monica,
If the only match a couple has is in the sack, your statement should read, “Sex is not the answer to everything, but some are inclined to think so.” :)
I think you misunderstood me.
I have found that people can connect on an emotional basis (love) which culminates in the sack; but is not the single basis for taking it further, although they usually do.
People that only screw tend not to (in my experience) push a long term relationship. Which is what I believe you are referring to and is not what I was talking about.
By FatMoose
December 5, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this
Chilao,
I have learned that there are soooo many misunderstandings on here that I no longer take the obvious choice to necessarily be the correct one is all.
I figured that you were joking, but take nothing for granted on here anymore which does take the fun out of word play unfortunately.
By Chilao
December 5, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
FM - yes, I understand…LOL
By kimberly
December 5, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
I miss Jack. {:-<
By TramadoL2379
December 6, 2006 03:18 AM | Link to this
I haven’t been up to anything recently, but so it goes. Such is life. What can I say? Pretty much not much exciting going on to speak of. I haven’t gotten much done lately, but I don’t care.
By TramadoL5089
December 6, 2006 04:15 AM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen, but I don’t care. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL88152
December 6, 2006 06:27 AM | Link to this
I can’t be bothered with anything these days, but such is life. I don’t care. So it goes. More or less nothing seems worth thinking about. I’ve just been hanging out waiting for something to happen, but that’s how it is.
By Chica
December 6, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this
My question is why even today household chores & childcare are just automatically the burden of the wife/girlfriend? Dishes always need to be done because we ALL eat. Everybody needs clothes that need washing & put away. Floors need to be cleaned, sheets need to be changed, grocery shopping is a regular chore. Why do so many ignore that these things have to be done? How can so many not see that that someone else is doing these things for them when they should be keeping things up themselves.
I just don’t buy that men are that ignorant. Selfish maybe, lazy, but not ignorant. I personally always get: I’ve had a bad day don’t start on me, I’ve got to “work on this thing first, I’ll do it later, remind me later”.
Suddenly I’m a nag so I end up doing it all. Again. I work all day myself, usually a 10 hour day which includes the commute. Just once I’d love my husband to call me to ask what we need, he’ll stop by the grocery store on HIS way home. Without me saying anything, & I don’t anymore, he cleans a bathroom or folds some laundry.
By TramadoL6847
December 6, 2006 08:37 AM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen, but I don’t care. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL34510
December 6, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this
I feel like a complete blank, but I don’t care. Pfft. I’ve pretty much been doing nothing worth mentioning.
By 2D
December 6, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this
Chica… Household chores are not automatically the burden of the wife/girlfriend in all relationships. I am ina relationship where that is not the case, my parents were/are in a relationship where that is not the case. Most of my friends are in relationships where that is not the case.
In the situations where the wife/girlfriend does the majority of the household chores one of the following is the case: the woman is a stay at home mom/wife; the woman works part-time; the woman doesn’t trust the man to adequately do the chores; the woman is more “traditional” than others and feels it is her responsibility to do so.
Perhaps it is an age thing, perhaps it is an upbringing thing, perhaps it is a cultural thing. Not sure, but your blanket statement is not reflective of virtually any couple I am acquainted with.
By lovelyliz
December 6, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this
Our culture idolizes the rich and powerful. Those who don’t fit that mold generally don’t get the credit for what they do.
By Chilao
December 6, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
Lozen - perhaps you need to add a Slacker Award to those trophy-designs you are working on, based on one of FM’s posts yesterday and Chica’s just now.
Some would want to collect them as a Badge of Honour. Might be a hot-selling item.
By Renee
December 6, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this
why is the blog so dead lately…is it the topics, or is everyone out on vacation.
I know my workload has TRIPLED and nobody but me seems to notice it LOL…
By kimberly
December 6, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
Hi Renee, be careful what you wish for, or that mongrel might come back and start peeing on things again. I do miss Jack…
Chica, I asked my first husband a very similar question. We both worked, yet I did every last bit of everything else, except mow the grass. And I mean EVERYTHING, not most, including fetching cold beers for his non-moving a— upon command. His response? His face screwed up in a frightening way, he turned red, then purple, then a demon’s voice came forth, spewing green bile, and the words: “BECAUSE IT’S YOUR G-DD-MN JOB, THAT’S WHY, B-TCH!”
By Chilao
December 6, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this
Renee - you have been absent so why would anyone else want to be here? HUH? LOL. Maybe everyone is busy doing on-line shoppin’. Or maybe it’s just the fear of catching rabies.
Should I ask if your partner who wants an award for very household thing done, is she the kinda eye candy type?
(that type of behavior being a little more prevalent there..LOL)
By Monica
December 6, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this
Kimberly, I am so sorry you had to live with such a horrible person! I hope life is nicer to you now. :)
~Quoting from Jeff Foxworthy’s early stuff about men needing credit for their small chores… “The wife is outside re-paving the driveway, and the husband yells out the door, ‘Hey Baaabaayy!! Don’t worry about emptying the ash tray on the coffe table! I done got it! I’m gonna take a nap now; I’m tired!’”
By Chica
December 6, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
“BECAUSE IT’S YOUR G-DD-MN JOB, THAT’S WHY, B-TCH!” ?????? You’re kidding ! I can’t believe anybody would say that. Of course I’m always shocked each & every time I hear of women getting beaten up. So really that type of thought process is probably more common than we are aware of. Most people don’t treat thier wives like that in front of others. What makes somebody that rude & cruel? My husband isn’t like that at all, but he is good at getting around to doing his fair share. All the time. It’s very difficult for me to work full time & keep up with our home.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
There are a multitude of situations out there - please try to remember that the one you lived is not the rule.
Some people get laid off, and during that down time, is it not reasonable that they do something? Some people are traditional; therefore, should they not do the traditional chores (for the most part)….etc.
Right now I am staying with my gf while looking for a career that is more fulfilling that past jobs. I am for the most part playing the “traditional” housewife role. I don’t mind and actually enjoy keeping things afloat while she works her a$$ off. Soon, we’ll be moving out west where I will no longer be able to do as much household work and I will offload the extra to her.
You do what has to be done, and so does your partner - or you kick them to the curb or vv.
By Chica
December 6, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
:) F.M !
I work full time, my husband also works outside full time. I do almost all the grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry , clean car (mine) etc. He will mow the grass but everything he does its like I need to go behind and make it right. He does it half way. Like he will mow but not edge or blow off the driveway. He will clean out the gutters then leave the leaves all over the yard and guess who picks them up. I just go crazy. I finally said just do one inside chore on the weekend and i will do the rest. I had to get mad beg and plead for him to do it then I ended up re-doing it the next day cuz he didnt even pick up the rugs to vacuum. He blames it on his job, its too stressful so he doesnt feel like doing anything. HE comes home at 4 and sits on the couch while I cook dinner set the table. He does help with the dishes but same thing if he does them, he will leave 2 pans for me to wash. I have stopped doing his laundry and he will do it but its not like he is helping by doing mine. I hate it and I am so resentful. I would love some suggestions.
By kimberly
December 6, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
Chica, your husband sounds EXACTLY like my teenager. This sounds trite, but um… go on strike. No cooking, cleaning, shopping, or errands of any kind. Zip. Notta. It’s effective on the kids, anyway. Lock myself in my room, and refuse to cater to anyone’s needs or wants for a couple of days. It’s only when you stop doing what you do that some people realize how much you actually do. Announce that you’re going on strike, define the timeframe or condition you require before ending it, explain briefly the reason, then STRIKE! Put your feet up, read, do your nails or whatever relaxes you, and stick to your guns. It sounds cruel, but it’s better than nagging and shouting all the time, but as we know, they just tune that out.
By Monica
December 6, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this
Chica,
I highly recommend marriage counseling. Sometimes it takes a third party to get a spouse to see the light. I know that counseling is expensive, but your marriage is worth it.
Another suggestion: I don’t know your financial situation, but have you looked into hiring a maid to come and clean once or twice a month? You know, for those tedious cleaning jobs like baseboards and windows. It might make you feel better!
I also recommend reading a book called His Needs, Her Needs. My husband and I read it before we got married, and it really was very helpful. The author is William F. Harley. You can find his books on amazon.com
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
I agree with the two suggestions provided.
It is proven, for all humans, that change only comes around when there are direct consequences, but without a third party to recommend those changes/consequences it will be perceived as argument material and will add to the frustration in most cases.
I believe firmly that it is the individuals job to find someone that is equally yoked as the first step - not for their partner to become equally yoked. If your already beyond that decision point, then a third party to assist in finding a middle ground would be the next step.
I would prepare myself though for great resistance, for people rarely change if their drive to make a relationship work is just not there. For many people I think it is summed up by the book “he’s (she’s) just not THAT into you.”
Sorry for the harsh reality, but reality IS harsh in those situations - hence the notion TOUGH love. It isn’t called EASY love for a reason.
By Mara
December 6, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
Hey all. Everyone in my section is out sick…including me. Wow. Typing on cold medicine is harder than one would think it’d be!! But that’s why I haven’t posted much.
Chica - you’ve got two choices…either let him do stuff the way he wants and be thankful for it, (even if it’s not how you think it should be done) or… do it yourself. They say that if you want something done right…
by the way, nobody can walk all over you if you don’t lay down and let them.
FM - Some people get laid off, and during that down time, is it not reasonable that they do something
Exactly! My sweetie changes jobs frequently but when he’s not working…the house absolutely sparkles. I’ve never asked him to do it, but that’s how he contributes to our family when he’s not working. I’d do the same if the positions were ever reversed.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
by the way, nobody can walk all over you if you don’t lay down and let them.
Difficult truth to grasp but very true.
By Renee
December 6, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
Nah, Chilao, she’s just needy in the affirmations department LOL…I’m the eye candy in the house (not to toot my own horn) but…. LOL jk
Chica - I agree with Monica. Marriage counseling is not just for cheating, or your marriage being on the rocks. Sometimes people don’t know how to respond to each other and it can help greatly.
My Xmas is going to be in Atlanta this year everyone!!! My mommy bought my daughter and I tickets for Xmas, and I for one can’t wait to see my city and breath polluted air again LOL.
By Mara
December 6, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
ugh. I feel like crap. Can’t type, and I’m making not expressing myself well.
I’m going back to bed. Y’all have a good day and I’ll catch up with ya later.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this
Hope you feel better Mara.
By Monica
December 6, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this
Renee, we should have a party since you’ll be in town! We can all agree to wear paper bags over our heads to maintain our incognito blog status. LOL :)
Mara, sorry you’re sick! It’s definitely Lysol spray time in my classroom - I spray it in my room between classes!
By Kevin
December 6, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
Mara,
Great advice @12:49. Each of us comes into a marriage believing not only that our way is the best way, but that our way is the ONLY way. We simple can’t understand why our spouse does things differently than we do.
We misunderstand these differences as: 1. He/she doesn’t love me enough to do things the right way (meaning my way). 2. He/she is just too lazy to do things the right way. 3. He/she wasn’t raised right!
How arrogant that is of us! I remember that my wife and I fought constantly during our first six months of marriage over these same issues. How did we resolve the problems? We simply compromised. I accepted some of her differences, she accepted some of mine, and we both changed some of our habits to accomodate one another.
I fully understand that there are some occasions where compromise can’t be reached. In those cases, I love Kimberly’s suggestion @12:05!
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
We simply compromised. I accepted some of her differences, she accepted some of mine, and we both changed some of our habits to accomodate one another.
Would that not fall under the fact that you both cared enough for each other to compromise your positions? Which is the converse of #1; proving it true that if someone resists compromise that they are NOT that into you?
By kimberly
December 6, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
Going on strike definitely works on kids — temporarily of course. Straightens their little attitudes right up! Of course kids and men aren’t the same… entirely. As my aforementioned husband also used to say, “You can’t cut me off; you don’t know where I’m getting it!” Hahaha! Bless his heart.
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
I think it is just too simplistic to say that b/c you don’t see eye to eye on some things that the other person just isn’t that into you. Especially when dating, you are learning about the other person. Some things b/c of where people are developmentally, intellectually, and/or emotionally compromise isn’t going to happen. They can care deeply and want nothing but the best but that doesn’t always cut it. Sometimes you just learn some things by dating the wrong person.
By Chilao
December 6, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Suzi-Q - FM actually said if the person was not willing to Compromise then they are not that into you.
Mara - good luck, I have had a few deathly ill with flu folks in my life real recently, luckily(knock on wood) I have yet to be affected.
on this TouchLove concept, my new kitty is having a difficult time staying off of the top of the large aquarium, do you suppose if I opened it up and dropped him in there, he would stay away from it? Just a thought. I cured my old female from scratching at the window at 3am by putting her outside for the night, 2 nights in a row. I associated her scratching with immediately putting her out(before I went to sleep). That was 6 years ago and she has not scratched at the window in the middle of the night since. Smart cat.
By Chilao
December 6, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
ToughLove?
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
Chilao,
Thanks for clearing up the confusion Suzi-Q had with my post.
I would use the tactic used for doves. Get some astro-turf, drive some soft plastic spikes through it - enough so there is no-where to land/lay down - and place it on top for a month or so.
What type of aquarium do you have? Salt or fresh?
Suzi-Q, I believe we are addressing a relationship after that initial discovery period. Although people are on best behavior during that time - I personally believe we all receive red flags during even that initial state. Hence why they are flags and not themes…yet.
Once we are down the road a while and have ignored those flags and feel emotionally attached, we are prone to disregard the fact that the other person is just not that into us to compromise. Most, at that point, will lay down and be walked on until it is unbearable at which point we demand change/compromise. What choices are left is what I am referring to; in short.
By Chilao
December 6, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
I would use the tactic used for doves. Get some astro-turf, drive some soft plastic spikes through it - enough so there is no-where to land/lay down - and place it on top for a month or so.
but that’s no fun, I was going to teach him how to swim. LOL Thanks, good idea, it is fresh water.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
but that’s no fun, I was going to teach him how to swim. LOL Thanks, good idea, it is fresh water.
I just think that he will learn to take note of when it was open/closed. Plus, it would take numerous “dumps” and that wont be good for the fish;)Funny scenario tho; I agree.
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this
Chilao—thank you for clearing up the statement, I see what FM was saying about being WILLING to compromise. FM-Interesting point. I really wasn’t talking about the ‘honeymoon phase’ but can see where my post sounded like that; I meant more of the time after that but hopefully before the couple gets married. Most of my friends are in this stage; serious commitment, usually living together but not married. I think if we all ran at every red flag we won’t date anyone. Nor would we learn what we DON’T want. You can easily weed out who you don’t even like enough to date but it isn’t that easy to know what they will be like in a long term relationship. My only point is this they can be totally ‘into you’ and it still isn’t the right person. I think, while it would be very hard emotionally, recognizing that is another option. Some times even when it is a bad relationship you learn things. Hopefully you aren’t in a pattern and can find a person next time that is a better fit. Do you think that there are other options than being walked on or demanding change?
By NetBanker
December 6, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
I know my workload has TRIPLED and nobody but me seems to notice it LOL…
Renee…I’m going through the same thing at my job. They fired 1 person 2 months ago, another resigned 1 month ago, hiring is frozen until next year (this after we interviewed the perfect candidate), we’re taking on a new client and the senior managers can’t seem to understand why my team and I are stressed out and starting to snap at everyone. HELLLO???!! Anyone in one of those cushy offices have a working brain?! We’ve gone from 43 hour weeks to 46, then with the resignation it bumped up to 50, and now you’re taking on more work during the holidays and you can’t understand why we’re cranky and telling you we can’t meet our commitment dates?! I guess they’re too busy trying to figure out how to spend their big fat bonuses from coming with lower salary expenses at year-end. BTW…hooray on coming home for Christmas!! Where is the first place you’re dying to go see because there just isn’t one like it in Vermont?
I am for the most part playing the “traditional” housewife role. FM…does that include wearing the French Maid outfit?
It’s only when you stop doing what you do that some people realize how much you actually do. So true, Kimberly! I miss traveling for business more because when I did at a previous job I noticed that my partner had a much greater appreciation for the things I did around the house. He just didn’t notice all the picking up I’d do until I wasn’t there to do it. Bless his heart, I still don’t think he ever put 2 and 2 together on why I always knew where everything was in the house….it’s because I put the sh it away where it belonged. I recall one day he asked why something wasn’t in the a cabinet or drawer to which I responded that as I recall he was the last one using it just a day earlier. I was dumbfounded when he responds, “But it’s always in there whenever I need it.” I sarcastically responded, “Well I guess the elves are getting a little sloppy in their work. I’ll be sure to mention that to them.”
By Renee
December 6, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Net, there are SO many places…more food than anything. Pappadeux is at the top of my list as is Chick filA (you never know you miss it until it’s gone)…Vermont has NOTHING that Georgia has, and while that’s not ALL bad, it’s not all good either.
We had one person on our team quit, the hiring process was coming along, and then we found out they are hiring someone PARTTIME…my desk is overflowing, my inbox, i’m emailing people at a mile a minute…it’s getting to be a bit much…my brain is FRIED!!
Net…your last sentence at 3:14 is priceless!!! I’m using it, tonight probably LOL..
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
I think if we all ran at every red flag we won’t date anyone. I guess the less serious flags would be yellow;) Things we can live with: Like in “Good Will Hunting,” his wife’s oddities are what makes her unique (farting in bed for instance). And since only he knows them, that is what makes her “his.”
So, I am not advocating looking for perfection. I am advocating being HONEST with what you can live with though.
Do you think that there are other options than being walked on or demanding change? That truly depends on the individual. I know people that have absolutely no problem doing the things others complain about - this is outside the realm of right/wrong. If we are talking about deal breakers though, I do believe that those are the two only choices (in the relationship): 1 Become ok with the behavior yourself, 2 explain a deep need for change, or thirdly - leave the relationship.
For example, in Kimberly’s relationship: I know people who find it fulfilling to be the wife that inherently should do those jobs that her ex expected. So, it is not necessarily a matter of absolutely right/wrong, but what is right/wrong for each individual.
Same goes for me. I know people that could not stand certain nuances of mine, as well as those that find them endearing.
(Now the argument as to what your modeling to children gets messier. Which I will not get into bc that does get into right/wrong issues IMO and experience)
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
FM…does that include wearing the French Maid outfit? LOL - only when the daughter is out for the night. Otherwise it is locked in our black box of goodies;)
Although I prefer getting the riding gear out. We can always explain that we were just cleaning the chaps and spurs;)
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
I am advocating being HONEST with what you can live with though. I really like that idea :-) But don’t you think then that puts the responsibility squarely on the person who feels their partner isn’t doing X,Y, Z? They should have been honest with themselves and their partner before it got there or the first time, right? FM- You said you have a girlfriend? Have you ever had an argument that you broke up over and then got back together? Do those deal breakers become smaller when you put the entire relationship or person on the line?
By kimberly
December 6, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
Damn. I was hoping they’d find the daddy still alive. {:-<
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
But don’t you think then that puts the responsibility squarely on the person who feels their partner isn’t doing X,Y, Z?They should have been honest with themselves and their partner before it got there or the first time, right?
Absolutely. The only thing we can truly control is ourselves - therefore it must start with ourselves.
Have you ever had an argument that you broke up over and then got back together? Do those deal breakers become smaller when you put the entire relationship or person on the line? In my experience, the issue becomes a hot spot and avoidance begins, or in some rare cases, acceptance.
For example, I took some major developmental backsteps in my last relationship and accepted things that I knew I would not be ok with out of a lack of self-esteem that arose bc of new health issues. It should never have gotten past the first two weeks, but I ignored what I knew. That was totally my fault, although the issues I had with her would, by most peoples standards, be very reasonable - as confirmed by the counselor we saw. I tried to focus on those remedying those issues in the first two above mentioned ways although the third was the needed outcome.
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
Glad you recognized that and sounds as though you are very happy! (LOL to your riding crop joke above.) Sounds similar to a relationship I had. It was my fault for putting up with being treated that way, but I stayed b/c I felt like I had no where to go if I left, which is just not true and a product of bad self-esteem. I am now VERY honest about what I can tolerate and what I can’t. It is working well so far :-)
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
Truth is though; I think I learned the most in that relationship. Don’t know if it was just the time in my life, or that the lessons needed to be learned to move on to a different place in life. I was usually the one going off on tangents and crying over spilled milk, and I learned if you want a healthy relationship — DON’T do that. Funny now when I see it I can pick it out in a heartbeat, b/c I argued that way in the past. What is the most important thing you learned last time?
That is so sad about the Dad, I was hoping they would find him alive too.
By Monica
December 6, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, I just read that story - I was so hoping they would find him alive - I’m heartbroken for his wife and babies.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
Congrats.
It takes a difficult step in self-reflection to admit our failures - especially in the presence of truly damaging behavior by others in our lives. It is so easy to blame the bad behavior of others for our misery.
One question I can ask myself to prod realistic thinking is “can I see this person assisting in raising a child in a healthy environment?”
I think it makes sense to start with the mates behavior though, bc otherwise you would be just running from every red flag. I just have to remember to change my direction before the attempts of changing the relationships eats me up;)
Yes - I am very happy now. She is someone I dated before and always knew was a lasting connection no matter what happens. It ended the first time bc of primarily life situations that needed time to aspirate themselves first. The first time I told her how I feel I stated “I have always loved you” which is how it felt - It was as though what I felt for her expanded in both directions on the time-line.
By FatMoose
December 6, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
What is the most important thing you learned last time?
1) Know what you know - even if it is difficult for you or the other person.
2) I am above getting into a screaming match with a child and there is not any winning: Be the bigger person and walk (sometimes run) away while adhering to statement #1. For people can push you to limits that are outside your character, and if you stay in those limits too long you can/will adopt it as acceptable.
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
It takes a difficult step in self-reflection to admit our failures Very true indeed. Also a good yardstick with the kids thing!! Sounds like you have found your great love, must be wonderful to have so much together. So did you have your daughter with her? You said about your daughter being out of the house?
By Justin
December 6, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/11/29/the-silence-of-the-wedding-bells/
The Silence of the Wedding Bells By Carey Roberts
Am I the only one who is worried about the collapse of the traditional American family right before our very eyes?
Census Bureau bureaucrats are not in the habit of making apocalyptic pronouncements, but last year Mark Mather reported that the “dramatic decline” in the married population is “one of the biggest demographic stories of the past several decades.” Now, married couples now account for a minority – 49.7% to be exact – of all U.S. households.
The cause of this extraordinary demographic shift is two-fold. First, Americans are getting married only half as often as we used to. Second since 1960, the share of divorced Americans rose from 2% to 10%.
African-American communities have been especially hard-hit. In 1960 four-fifths of all Black families had fathers and mothers at home. Three decades later, that number had plummeted to 38%.
As a result of the decline of marriage, illegitimacy is on the upswing. Just last week the National Center for Health Statistics announced that almost four in 10 babies were born out-of-wedlock in 2005.
All this is very bad news for kids, since children raised only by mothers are more likely to be poor, suffer from a host of behavioral and academic problems, and get in trouble with the law.
For sure, the great majority of young women say they plan to get married and have kids some day. So why has Cosmo replaced Bride magazine in the supermarket check-out lines?
Some experts cite the “greater economic independence of women,” as if a single mom scraping by on a welfare check is what female liberation is all about. Others argue that Americans are simply delaying the age of marriage, suggesting that women who are nervously watching their biological clocks just need to be a little more patient.
But there’s one fact that’s hard to dispute: our country faces an acute shortage of marriage-minded men.
Two years ago Barbara Whitehead and David Popenoe of Rutgers University did a national survey of single heterosexual men, ages 25-34. To everyone’s shock, they found 22% of the men declared no interest in finding their One and Only. [http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/SOOU/TEXTSOOU2004.htm] That means two million American women will likely never see the inside of a wedding chapel.
Now, hooking-up is replacing that quaint courtship ritual that used to be known as “dating.” When Norval Glenn and Elizabeth Marquardt surveyed college senior women, they found that one-third of the women had been asked on fewer than two dates.
And this past August the New York Times ran a piece on “Facing Middle Age with No Degree, and No Wife,” which revealed the reluctance to wed runs especially deep in less educated men.
There is overwhelming research that shows marriage benefits both men and women in terms of their financial and emotional well-being. Plus, married folks live longer. So what do we need to do to entice men back into the courtship ritual?
The Nasty Nellies have been giving marriage a bum rap for years, so sadly there are no quick fixes. But this is what we need to do.
First, we need to dispose of the boogeyman of the patriarchal ogre lording over his beleaguered wife. If that image was ever true, it certainly doesn’t apply to any couple that I know of. In fact, the reverse now seems to be more commonplace: the harried, henpecked husband who’s hectored to keep his feet off the furniture during the ball game.
Second, we need to consider the effects of the 1992 Supreme Court’s Planned Parenthood v. Casey decision that banned fathers from participating in decisions to keep the unborn baby, thus leaving them biologically disenfranchised.
Third, we’ve got to do more to help boys excel academically. Trash the Title IX quotas, provide special help for boys who are lagging, and tell teachers to stop expecting boys to act like girls.
Fourth, we need to do a major overhaul of our nation’s domestic violence laws, which allow any woman to plunder her husband’s assets and steal his children by merely claiming “abuse.”
And fifth, reform of our divorce laws is long overdue, so fathers are encouraged to remain involved in their children’s lives as parents, not every-other-weekend visitors.
Sadly in low-income Black communities, marriage is essentially a dead institution. And there are groups in our country that now want to extend their agenda of family destruction to society at large.
The family is the very building block of a civilized and prosperous society. What will it take to bring back the exuberant peal of June wedding bells?
By Suzi-Q
December 6, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
Interesting, sound as if the discussion has come full circle, b/c here you give an example of being into someone, but “Knowing what you know” in some ways could be viewed as not compromising. You love them (I think, I am assuming here) but you aren’t willing to change your POV on what you know? Do you think so?
By TramadoL46230
December 7, 2006 04:08 AM | Link to this
My life’s been basically bland today. More or less nothing seems worth thinking about. My mind is like an empty room. I’ve more or less been doing nothing to speak of. Not much on my mind recently.
By TramadoL92379
December 7, 2006 04:59 AM | Link to this
I haven’t been up to much lately. I’ve basically been doing nothing , but it’s not important. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me lately.
By Chilao
December 7, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this
Speaking of honeymoon, hot off of the email inbox:
It was the accepted practice in Babylon 4,000 years ago that for a month after the wedding, the bride’s father would supply his son-in-law with all the mead he could drink. Mead is a honey beer and because their calendar was lunar based, this period was called the honey month, which we know today as the honeymoon.
So don’t be surprised if the honeymoon is over after a month? LOL
Renee _ I suppose I should stay away from the suggestion of now that’s a good girl pat on the head for housework done? Ya think?
By lovelyliz
December 7, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this
My brother-in-law has to be one of the laziest men on the planet and I place a good amount of the blame on my sister. While they both work full time, he has free maid sevice, laundry service, a cook, a dishwasher, interior designer, bill payer and child care provider. Why should he do any of that, when he can get her to do it all? The only price he has to pay is to listen to her complain. He then gets in his truck and drives off to God knows where. When he comes home the work is done and he can go back to his computer or the television.
He’s not the stupid one, she is.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this
but “Knowing what you know” in some ways could be viewed as not compromising. Not in the manner which I mean it though. But where it might be applicable, is, for example, the first time my current and I dated. I knew that although this is the love of my life, if we pressed it, the relationship would suffer.
You love them (I think, I am assuming here) but you aren’t willing to change your POV on what you know? Pronoun confusion here. If you are referring to BOTH my last two gfs, the answer is no. I wanted to love someone concerning my ex and convinced myself that was best I could get for the reasons previously mentioned.
Do you think so? I think you should rephrase this last post. I do not think I get your point.
So did you have your daughter with her? You said about your daughter being out of the house? No, but in spirit I feel she is mine and we have a father/daughter relationship that is always surprising me.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this
I agree liz. But, as with my bro-in-law and sister - I have found that they both get their childish wants fulfilled. They just are different wants, but childish and destructive all the same.
By Chica
December 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
Justin, So now women are being blamed for the downfall of the American family? Well somebody needs to take all human rights away from women again & make them property of men. Back to a time that was a much better lifesyle for, who? Sorry Justin, men today are expected to act a little better than the cavemen behavior that used to be considered normal. If our spouse cheats we don’t have to stay. If our spouse is mean to us or hits us we don’t have to stay. If our spouse is a drunk we don’t have to stay. At least now we are independant enough to leave. I’m not getting this. One one hand some of you are telling me I need to kick my lazy husband to the curb because he won’t do his fair share, then on the other hand women who don’t put up with lazy husbands & get divorced are now the downfall of the American family?
So do I need to shut my mouth & do what needs to be done like a good girl or stand my ground? If nothing works do I walk away or live my life cleaning up after a lazy husband that has no problem with me do everything at home?
By lovelyliz
December 7, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
FatMoose I should have added that my sister comes from a long line of matyrs. My Mother is the same way. They will complain, but don’t you dare give them advice or make them aware of how enabling they are.
By Brian Curtis
December 7, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
Justin: Roberts’ article is interesting (in places), but I’m missing the core assumption: that fewer people getting married is actually a problem. It’s like noting the decline in birthrates and then jumping into plans for federal programs, media-image adjustments, etc., without actually spelling out why this is supposed to be a bad thing.
Fewer people are getting married… and???
By Suzi-Q
December 7, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this
Glad you found some one you love FM. That always feels so good! Seems this is an interesting blog to have found, I am looking forward to reading and posting.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
Chica,
As I stated before, it comes down to you. Questions like: “Do I get fulfillment in other parts of my relationship?” should help you in deciding.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this
Chica, Justin is anger at all women - so his opinions are always biased. There are those that are his reciprocle as well.
Suzi-Q, Wait till the non-moderates post - it gets nasty and I leave for a few weeks/months bc the absurdities start flying along with name calling etc;)
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this
Liz,
They will complain, but don’t you dare give them advice or make them aware of how enabling they are.
My sisters situation exactly as well! I have deduced it to her not wanting to do the homework it takes to become a full person, and therefore has to settle for someone with larger flaws than her own. ie both parties are avoiding work that should have been done long ago.
By Chilao
December 7, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
Fewer people are getting married… and???
I did the same thing: and that is a problem, HOW? LOL
potential for no more Hatfield’s and McCoy’s stories?
By Casey Smith
December 7, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this
One thing we all need to remember is that men ARE leaning more on women than they should. Employers should be reminded that they pay our husbands a salary to do a job based on their talents for doing the job. Employers, nowadays assume the wife will work. Women are no longer available to help other women—widows with children, the elderly, medical bills the deceased leave behind that over-burden the living. Why should men lean so much on women when the average family has 2 children? Years ago people had large families—there wasn’t much to spare. But, many men nowadays just want a mommy for a wife. Proverbs 31:20 “She reaches out her hands to the poor, and extends her arms to the needy.” SHE CAN’T do that if her husband doesn’t know what a woman in society should be. We, as Americans, have a very poor attitude towards helping others. The correct order:older, widows with children, always the sick. You help because you are a Christian—not to be praised by men.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
BC, You know his point right? He wants to setup the degradation of all humankind on woman’s shoulders bc he got stilted.
Thats easier for him than looking in a mirror and asking why he chose such a person.
Anyone know anything about Ken Wilber? Or have studied personal growth a lot in an applicative way?
By Chica
December 7, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
FM my husband is wonderful. His only flaw is that he does absolutely no cleaning. It makes my life much harder & I really resent that he always gets around doing anything domestic. I’ve talked to him about it & I’m not nagging at him. I still end up doing everything & it’s not like I’m a neat freak or anything. I get really resentfull & depressed about it because my work days are long just like his.
FM no wonder Justin said what he did. That website he quoted from is horrible! What a bunch of mean men that post there! They blame everything on women, everything. Do you guys really think like that & just don’t tell us? Do you think my husband is really sexist & showing it by not doing anything considered women’s work? I never even considered that, & that’s a more depressing thought.
By Archie
December 7, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this
chica I wish you well.
By Chilao
December 7, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Chica - that is standard Justin Fare there, nothing new. LOL
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
Do you guys really think like that & just don’t tell us? Men, just like women, do not have a collective conscience…
Do you think my husband is really sexist & showing it by not doing anything considered women’s work? Maybe, but there are a lot of other possibilities as well. I would seek these answers with a third party (counselor) as to keep the questions from seeming loaded or demeaning. For if he is purely oblivious of the actual work to be done, as stated by someone above, then he will not take your questions seriously and moreover as argument material.
We are working in a circular pattern here most likely that originated FROM a traditional marriage (gender divided labor being ONE aspect) —> maintaining that theme bc no-one ever taught us different. I would guess that he was raised in a household that was functional in that division of labor, but does not translate to your current relationship. For me that does not equate sexist, unless when confronted in a neutral environment he reacts like Kimberly’s ex did.
By lozen
December 7, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
Justin, this world can survive without wedding bells! Why can’t people move on? Anyone who ever studied history or anthropology or sociology knows there have been many, many ways cultures have functioned without marriage as we know it in the short history of western society. Children need as much love and care and training as they can get. Traditional marriage isn’t working for our society any more and we need to think of new ways to make sure children get what they need.
By lovelyliz
December 7, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this
Having a husband who doesn’t do any cleaning isn’t that bad as long as he steps up to the plate and does other things. It’s having a spouse who doesn’t cook, clean, do laundry, ironing, taking out the garbage, mowing the grass, home maintenance, dressing the kids, paying the bills, car maintenance, etc. that’s the problem.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
Let me present an analogy, please pick at it as you see fit: A company finds that its old way of doing business, although functional, is no longer fair due to technology making some jobs easier than others.
The company sends out a memo stating that the previous practices no longer apply, but ends there. No training, no explanation of new roles(across the board for the ones treated unfair as well), structure etc. Only that the old ones no longer apply.
What outcomes would you get?
IMO, you would get those that would continue the old practices for many reasons: comfortability in routine, unsure of what else to do, as well as in defense of the previous practices. Over-all you would get a great amount of chaos as well.
It is a muddled situation with few clear right/wrongs for all involved. That is where we are as a society.
By Archie
December 7, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
My post did not go thru yesterday. Chica, you will be always be dealing with that behavior off and on but please understand that men have to deal with that behavior you describe as well. Coworkers(female) have told how they just take off their clothes and just drop them on the couch which means the spouse(male) will have to pick up those clothes. This goes on and on. Some women will absolutely not clean the refrigerator but when they do something they want recognition in lights just as Renee wrote earlier.
By Chilao
December 7, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
So much of this is in childhood raising.(almost keyed training, which it is as well).
Overheard my boss this morning, who is practically a CIO, who also, in spite of having a wife who does not work, does most of the domestic stuff. And the issue was doing his 14-y/o son’s laundry, picking it up and gathering it for cleaning. WTH?
When I was 10-11, one of the few times we lived in a actual town, I was REGULARLY putting baskets of cloths on a dolly, often 2-3 trips, and taking them a few blocks to a laundry mat and doing the laundry for the WHOLE HOUSEHOLD. Including FOLDING. geeeez.
By Chilao
December 7, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
FM - a date last night suggested putting two-way-tape on top of the aquarium, seems cats hate that stuff. Probably what I will try since I have an ample supply already. Two types, from other projects. (as long as I can FIND the rolls..LOL)
the punk is going to have to get used to the full-bucket warm-water flea-wash eventually ANYWAY, come spring time, until he is about a year old. full-soaking.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
Chilao,
Good solution! I was trying to think of something that they dislike and would be easy to apply like that - but forgot tape as a deterrent.
By kimberly
December 7, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Okay, now y’all don’t freak. But I actually think — from an observational perspective, not a blame or re-regulate standpoint — that Casey Smith has some good points at 10:36.
I’ve also noticed that men today want mommies for wives, and have seen divorce after divorce where the men felt “put upon” to have to work all the time (no fun!), and women got fed up working full time and begging their biggest kids to get off the playstation and act like a grown-up for ten minutes. Traditional roles are diminished, and options for a woman can often turn into a mandate to do everything. This is not to say that we shouldn’t have options; I’m all about freedom of choice for everyone, and would never presume to say what a woman “should be!” I’m only saying that men today consider a woman’s earning potential when considering marriage, and tend to be less interested in being the sole support of a family. Whether that’s “good” or “bad” is not really for me to judge, but as a busy, working, divorced mom, I feel a sense of loss that I cannot give my time and efforts to those in need — a natural instinct for me, anyway. My ex-husband was FURIOUS when I took time away from fetching his beers to be a literacy tutor, or anything else that distracted from my duties of earning a paycheck and doing everything else too.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this
kimberly,
I am sure you have observed such behavior, for I have seen what you speak of as well. What is the point though? That what you observed is therefore the truth or just a truth among many truths?
BC if your truth is to be taken as the truth, then Justin’s can also bc of what his limited experience has provided thus far…
IMO these are merely self-fulfilling prophecies to evade what one can do (arrrg…more work) to expand ones real options.
By Archie
December 7, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
It seems as if only certain posts go thru. Chica,be firm with your husband because I know you love him but you have let him know what’s expected and of course his bad behavior will re-occur but at least you won’t be just frustrated all the time.
By kimberly
December 7, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
FatMoose, I thought I put sufficient disclaimers in my post to be clear that I’m not pulling a Justin. I was making an observation, not a judgment nor indictment of an entire gender or generation. I didn’t claim ALL men were that way. Nor did I place blame on the men themselves for “being that way” since habits, attitudes, and expecations come from many factors, including parents, friends, religious beliefs, pop-culture, and generational norms. I was merely agreeing with someone else’s post to the extent that I feel a sense of loss, and would be lying if I said I didn’t. It was an “I see and feel” kind of statement, not a “you are” or “people should” kind of statement.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this
kimberly,
So it was more of a personal statement? I can appreciate that.
By Trish
December 7, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
This is too wide and varied a topic to address in two small columns. There are many aspects to this depending on the situation. As for myself, I expect that my men help out. The men I chose seem to do this because it’s their nature. Then again, my income tends to match theirs and I don’t feel I owe it to anyone to do more things around the house than my partner. It’s a balancing equation - not old school rhetoric where the female automatically assumes “wifely duties.” We balance the equation of duties according to our likes, dislikes, priorities, abilities and time available. Sometimes we just hire it out we can do that because we are dual income with no children. Parents need to provide home training across the board to all children regardless of sex it will come in handy whether you are in a relationship or better yet not.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
Statements like: I’ve also noticed that men today want mommies…
get me confused no matter the disclaimer provided.
I would have understood your point better if it read: “The men I’ve noticed today want mommies…”
Understandable, no?
By Kevin
December 7, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
Kimberly,
I for one agree with your post at 12:06. I remember you made a similar comment a few weeks back that you really had no choice about whether or not to work. In today’s society it is expected that women will. Women in the workplace is a good thing, women staying at home is a good thing, but not having a choice is not such a good thing.
Since you had the courage to step out of your traditional “left-leaning” posts, I am going move out of my “right-leaning” comfort zone. Here goes:
The article Justin pasted has some good points but I believe it to be faulty in its main assumption assumption that society (mainly feminists) are to blame for all the social ills we face today. Baloney. Men are mostly to blame. For years we have (as Kimberly put it) wanted mommies instead of wives. We want the wife to work, then come home and take care the children while we go drink and play golf with the fellows. Then when it comes to making important decisions, we let our wives make them because we don’t want to take responsibility for anything. It is too easy to blame her when something goes wrong.
Diane is ROTM when she said several weeks ago that women aren’t feminizing men because they aren’t capable of doing such a thing. Men have allowed themselves to become feminized.
Take the “let’s stop asking boys to act like girls at school” issue. We can debate the truthfulness of that statement, but let’s assume for a moment that it is true. If it is true, it is because we have no men in the classroom (other than coaches), no men showing up for PTA/PTO conferences, and no men at home asking their children how their day went. If men were more involved, we wouldn’t have as many boys lagging behind girls in school. The boys in my math classes are doing just as well as the girls because they respond positively to having a man in the classroom.
Well, time to get off my soapbox - my class is about to come in.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this
Kevin,
I have no position on this bc of lack of full knowledge of the subject, but for intelligent arguments sake I will play DA:
To make your point regarding the “let’s stop asking boys to act like girls at school” issue; you would have to show that the number of male teachers, male participants at PTA/PTO meetings have dropped, but a quick google showed otherwise. The number of male teachers is quite similar as to 10years ago and the number of males in PTO/PTA has increase (although still unacceptable). Also, father participation at home has increased as well - on average.
So, in asking what HAS changed, I found that primarily policy and teaching tactics stood out. One could argue that these changed in response to it being a male dominated system and was unfair to females and in that change the pendulum swung too far.
By Kevin
December 7, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
FatMoose,
I agree with your argument. My point was not that male participation in PTO/PTA meetings has dropped, or that the number of male teachers has gone down, but that the lack of men involved in the decision-making process has allowed “the pendulum to swing to far” as you stated. Men seem to have no idea what is going on at our schools and quite frankly they don’t seem to care.
However, I should qualify those statements with the term “the majority” of men. And of course these statements are only my opinions based on my experiences.
By Chica
December 7, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
What are you guys talking about, what does that mean feminization of boys in school? Not letting them be disruptive or too loud? lol you never were at my school all the kids were disruptive & loud. It’s tough sitting through a boring class and what’s so girlie about school anyway? I don’t remember learning anything about women in history. Maybe Betsy Ross or something.
I mean everything was revolved around all the boy stuff anyway. All the football, basketball.
Tonight I’m going to do an experiment. I’m going to ask my husband to take the garbage out that this morning was over flowing. If he does do it I wonder if he’ll replace it with a new bag. I’ll let you know. I wish the only chore I had to do when I got home was take out the garbage.
By lozen
December 7, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
Chica, good question. What is this feminization of boys in school? I have many friends with boys in school and they never mention this. What are these guys talking about? Is it another of those things people just believe without question because some said it? And I too learned nothing about women’s history in school.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
Kevin, Agreed.
For an example of what could be an instance of feminization: Tag is now forbidden in some schools bc it is too rough.
But before anyone states I am absolutely claiming a stance, read the posts we provided thoroughly. Mainly the first statements.
By FatMoose
December 7, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
Is it another of those things people just believe without question because some said it?
Hmmmm. Good point! In fact it kinda is. The previous topic ran out so we began kicking this one around.
But if your trying to provide input, the subject matter taught in school is not a good example. Style and rules of conduct would be closer to the topic.
By NetBanker
December 7, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this
Thanks to Justin for your article on the decline of marriage. Conservatives must be totally freaked that the gay agenda to destroy marriage is working! MWahahahaha!! Let us get married and we’ll call off the attack! (My apologies to Mara – Queen of the EEEEeeevil Online Laugh for my sorry attempt, but I had to do it for the affect.) Ok…moving on…I did read an article in the NYTimes Magazine about the growing gap between rich/poor as related to marriage and the decline in marriage numbers. The article suggests that when it comes to marriage like marries like based on education levels and then income levels. In past decades women whose families came from the top end of the income scale went to college to earn an MRS degree. If they hadn’t met their spouse they graduated and worked as secretary/teacher/nurse/etc. When those who entered the workforce did marry it tended to be a co-worker (the boss, principal, doctor) and they exited the workforce. In today’s world these same women not only tend not to exit the workforce upon marriage, but they are well-paid professionals so you see an exponential growth in income for that segment of the population as high income earner marries high income earner. The growing gap between rich and poor is basically attributed to women’s strides in the workforce rather than a change in marriage patterns.
The article also looks at the decline in marriage. The decline seems to be more concentrated among low wage earners since more women from these income classes finish high school and/or continue their education in some form. Since these women have moved to a higher education/income level they either will marry a like male or find that the population of men who have also moved ‘up stream’ is more limited and not marry at all. Additionally some study mentioned in the article has found that lower income/low education males tend not to marry…my personal opinion is that most women don’t want to marry a high school drop out or high school graduate regardless of their own education level so their preference to marry up is resulting in significantly lower marriage rates in general.
The last point of the article is that people are waiting longer to marry and are being more selective. Many of todays under 40 crowd have lived through divorce as a child and don’t want to make the same mistakes as their parents. The lower rate of marriage can’t be attributed to any single thing…except the gay agenda. Mmmmwwahahahaha! (Apologies again, my Queen)
On a completely off topic note that IS related to my post very loosely by the ‘damn librul media’ I thought the following finding from the Iraq Study Group quite interesting in terms of conservative charges of a biased librul media undermining the war effort and our President: “There is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq,” the report states elsewhere, in a section stressing the importance of honest, clean intelligence. “The standard for recording attacks acts as a filter to keep events out of reports and databases… . For example, on one day in July 2006 there were 93 attacks or significant acts of violence reported. Yet a careful review of the reports for that single day brought to light 1,100 acts of violence.” Gee whiz! Turns out the damn biased librul media’s focus on the violence and death instead of all ‘the good’ is using guvment numbers that hide the actual amount of violence in Iraq through underreporting. Any one think there’s chance that the guvment was also gaming the system by over reporting the amount of good stuff or maybe was leaving out details like the shoddy quality of work that makes the rebuilt school a safety hazard to the teachers and students? NAW! The wouldn’t do that, would they?
Sorry for the long post. But time is at a premium and I had to cram it all in.
By NetBanker
December 7, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this
Tag is too rough?! Lord knows that dodge ball must be out of the question. No more Red Rover because a kid might get a bruise when someone tries to break through the line. Four Square must be dangerous because someone might jam a finger on the ball. No more volley ball. Can anyone think of a game kids could play in which there isn’t a chance of getting hurt? It’s not a wonder there isn’t recess any longer. It’s not a matter of wanting to spend the time teaching, but that there is no way to be 100% certain that some kid won’t get a hang nail.
By TramadoL8809
December 7, 2006 06:43 PM | Link to this
I haven’t gotten anything done recently. I’ve just been hanging out doing nothing. I haven’t been up to anything these days, but it’s not important. Today was a total loss.
By TramadoL73453
December 8, 2006 05:35 AM | Link to this
I haven’t gotten anything done recently. I’ve just been hanging out doing nothing. I haven’t been up to anything these days, but it’s not important. Today was a total loss.
By TramadoL91406
December 8, 2006 06:24 AM | Link to this
retty much nothing seems worth thinking about. My life’s been completely dull , not that it matters. I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen.
By SusieHomeMaker
December 8, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this
joke for the day, (from Comedy Central):
I hear Gates will be confirmed any day now, man that’s great!! They’ll finally have some new blood in the white house. Now Dick Cheney can drink it.
By TramadoL31093
December 8, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this
I haven’t been up to much lately. I’ve basically been doing nothing , but it’s not important. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me lately.
By Lyrazel
December 8, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
Can anyone think of a game kids could play in which there isn’t a chance of getting hurt? Poker.
By lozen
December 8, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Subject: Office of President of the United States of America will be outsourced to India
Congress today announced that the office of President of the United States of America will be outsourced to India as of April 15th, 2006.
The move is being made to save the President’s $400,000 yearly salary, and also a record $521 billion in deficit expenditures and related overhead the office has incurred during the last 5 years. “We believe this is a wise move financially. The cost savings should be significant,” stated Congressman Thomas Reynolds (R-WA). Reynolds, with the aid of the Government Accounting Office (GAO), has studied outsourcing of American jobs extensively. “We cannot expect to remain competitive on the world stage with the current level of cash outlay,” Reynolds noted.
Mr. Bush was informed by email this morning of his termination. Preparations for the job move have been underway for some time. Gurvinder Singh of Indus Tele services, Mumbai, India will be assuming the office of President as of April 15th. Mr. Singh was born in the United States while his Indian parents were vacationing at Niagara Falls, thus making him eligible for the position.
He will receive a salary of $320 (USD) a month but with no health coverage or other benefits.
It is believed that Mr. Singh will be able to handle his job responsibilities without a support staff. Due to the time difference between the US and India, he will be working primarily at night, when few offices of the US Government will be open. “Working will allow me to keep my day job at the American Express call center,” stated Mr. Singh in an exclusive interview. “I am excited about this position. I always hoped I would be President someday.”
Congressional Spokesperson noted that while Mr.Singh may not be fully aware of all the issues involved in the office of President, this should not be a problem because Bush is not familiar with the issues either. Mr. Singh will rely upon a script tree that will enable him to respond effectively to most topics of concern. Using these canned responses, he can address common concerns without having to understand the underlying issues at all.
“We know these scripting tools work,” stated the spokesperson. “President Bush has used them successfully for years.”
Mr. Singh may have problems with a Texas drawl, but lately Bush has abandoned the “down home” persona in his effort to appear intelligent and on top of the Katrina situation.
Bush will receive health coverage, expenses, and salary until his final day of employment. Following a two week waiting period, he will be eligible for $240 a week unemployment for 13 weeks. Unfortunately he will not be eligible for Medicaid, as his unemployment benefits will exceed the allowed limit.
Mr. Bush has been provided the outplacement services of Manpower, Inc. to help him write a resume and prepare for his upcoming job transition. According to Manpower, Mr. Bush may have difficulties in securing a new position due to limited practical work experience. A Greeter position at Wal-Mart was suggested due to Bush’s extensive experience shaking hands and phony smile. Another possibility is Bush’s re-enlistment in the Texas Air National Guard. His prior records are conspicuously vague but should he choose this option, he would likely be stationed at Ellington Air Guard Base in Houston, TX for a month, before being sent to Iraq, a country he has visited. “I’ve been there, I know all about Iraq,” stated Mr. Bush, who gained invaluable knowledge of the country in a visit to the Baghdad Airport’s terminal and gift shop.
Sources in Baghdad and Falluja say Mr. Bush would receive a warm reception from local Iraqis. They have asked to be provided with details of his arrival so that they might arrange an appropriate welcome.
By Chilao
December 8, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this
Can anyone think of a game kids could play in which there isn’t a chance of getting hurt? Poker.
not if they get upset over the outcome, or accuse the other of cheating, and with what kids haul to school nowadays, might make a shootout under the swings. Seems I remember many a Westerns where a simple poker game ended up very unhealthy.
DodgeBall has been banned at many schools, such a violent game and all, not to mention a direct-assault kind of activity. (j.k)
By Chilao
December 8, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this
My nephew had his cousin over, (both around 12-14), and the cousin did not want to go up to the end of the 300-feet driveway, seems his Mom(no real relation to me) was overprotective of him at home.
My nephew lives in kinda the country, and and plays all over the place. But this kid, his cousin, due to his Hover-Mom, was fearful to walk up the dirt driveway 300 feet from the house to the mailbox on the paved road. with no other house close by.
geeeez.
By Chilao
December 8, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this
(speaking of equality of the sexes.)
One afternoon, Little Johnny notices his daddy drive past the playground and into some nearby woods. Curious, he hides behind some bushes and finds his Daddy and Aunt Jane in a passionate embrace. Little Johnny is amused by this so he runs home to tell his mother.
“Mommy, Mommy, I was at the playground and I saw Daddy’s car go into the woods with Aunt Jane. I went to take a look and he was giving Aunt Jane a big kiss. Then, he helped her take off her shirt. And then, Aunt Jane helped Daddy take off his pants. And then, Aunt Jane got down on the seat and…”
“Johnny, this is such an interesting story,” interrupted his mother. “Suppose you save the rest of it for suppertime. I want to see the look on Daddy’s face when you tell it.”
Later that evening, at the dinner table, Little Johnny’s mother said, “Johnny, why don’t you tell Daddy and I the story you have for us.”
Johnny begins his story by describing the car going into the woods, the undressing, laying down on the seat, and…”Then Daddy and Aunt Jane did that same thing Mommy and Uncle Bill used to do when Daddy was away on business.”
By Mara
December 8, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
Hey y’all! Feeling much better today, thanks for all your sympathy :^)
regarding the “feminization” of boys vis-a-vis discontinuing playground games that could caus injury…I suggest that it has very little to do with the children and a whole lot to do with people’s tendancy to sue at the drop of a hat. Schools simply can’t afford to take the chance that little Johnny (or sweet baby Jane, for that matter) might fall down and chip a tooth, break a bone, or scrape their widdle knees. Whether parents are looking at medical costs or an opportunity to get some “free” cash, it just isn’t worth it for schools to risk any injury to their students.
And then there is the legal risks involved with “allowing” a child to come to harm. Who’d want to be the playground monitor on the day that the game of Tag gets out of hand and next thing you know, Johnny’s got a black eye and Billy’s nose is bleeding? To DFACS it’s be an obvious case of negligence by the monitor.
Lyrazel - Poker - ROTFLMAO!!!
By lozen
December 8, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
There are 3 good arguments that Jesus was Black:
But then there are 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish:
But then there are 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was a Californian:
But then there are 3 equally good arguments the Jesus was Irish:
But the most compelling evidence of all - 3 proofs that Jesus was a woman:
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
Mara,
I would agree with the “sue the school” notion, but there have not been any cases that I could find at all. So it would be the fear of being sued…which is really back to the hovering-mamma idea. It would also play into why grow men want mommas in greater numbers.
Ever try to teach a young dog before a good walk and play session? Near impossible and then they shut down after being yelled at.
Once again, just throwing things out there - no more, no less.
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
FatMoose—Does it make you feel good to come on a blog and lie about your life? Either the “love of your life” really doesn’t feel that way about you or her horses sure must be cold up in MI!! Are you lying on here for my benefit, so that the “one you never loved” will think better of you? You are crazy and I guess the gf and daughter you don’t have know that too. Don’t tell lies on the blog and I won’t call you out on it, ok?
By Mara
December 8, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
FM - of course it’s the FEAR of being sued. They’re trying to be PRO-active instead of waiting ‘til AFTER they lose a lawsuit. (head shaking) You don’t ban something unless you’re afraid of the consequences of NOT banning it! Don’t you know that just because nothing has been publicized, it doesn’t mean settlements haven’t been made? Even the threat to sue is usually enough to make risk-averse administrations desperate to settle out-of-court.
and why do you blame all this on the momma? I’ve seen plenty of daddies hovering and more men than women making excuses for their violent little he-men, you know, the whole “boys-will-be-boys” thing to excuse anti-social and violent behavior.
in honor of Joke Friday -
A football coach walked into the locker room before a big game, looked over to his star player and said, “I’m not supposed to let you play since you failed math, but we really need you in there. So, what I have to do is ask you a math question, and if you get it right, you can play.”
The player agreed, so the coach looked into his eyes intently and asked, - “Okay, now concentrate hard and tell me the answer to this: What is two plus two?”
The player thought for a moment and then answered, “4?” “Did you say 4?” the coach exclaimed, excited that he had given the right answer.
Suddenly, all the other players on the team began screaming, “Come on coach, give him another chance!”
By TramadoL48104
December 8, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
I’ve more or less been doing nothing worth mentioning, but eh. My life’s been really bland today. I don’t care. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me these days. That’s how it is.
By ha, ha, ha
December 8, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
“Tell me lies,” it sure isn’t hard to figure out FM. Just like his comment about the momma that Mara just responded to. He tries to pretend he’s fair and intelligent and likes females, but his basic hatred and envy toward women come shining thru so many of his posts. Sorry you got involved with this but just think about what you learned from it!
By Monica
December 8, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Fat Moose, There were plenty of men who grew up playing tag, Red Rover, and all the aforementioned playground games, who also wanted a mother figure in a wife. I don’t think the alleged “feminization of boys at school” theory has anything to do with that.
BTW, where do y’all live? I have not heard of schools banning these games on the playground. Did miss something that was on CNN or Fox News?
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
The people on this blog amaze me. They had him completely figured out a long time ago without ever even meeting him. And their observations are dead on! He knows I read this blog, and does this stuff on purpose, its funny really. We were together 2 and a half years with him begging me to come back to him after we broke up once, but he never loved me. Yeah right. He is just bitter, and you are right ha, ha, he has a very strong hatred for all women.
By Mara
December 8, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this
okay, technically this isn’t a joke but it is darn funny -
per Al Kamen of the Washington Post -
So everyone in the Joint Chiefs’ directorates (J-1 to J-8) at the Pentagon was planning on holding Christmas parties on Friday, Dec. 15 — the most obvious day since, after that, folks might start drifting out of town. But buzz is that someone, apparently in the office of the chairman, Gen. Peter Pace, had fretted that it might look as if all the hootin’ and hollerin’ that would be spilling out into the hallways was in celebration of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s departure that same day.
So word came down last week to change the dates of the Christmas parties. Done.
LOL!! Poor Rummy. Nobody loves him any more (snicker!)
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
I don’t blame any one group in particular - just look at my posts for that to be proven.
You would have to add to the context in order to come to that realization.
I understand this is a hot topic, and remove my DA approach seeing that it makes to many uncomfortable.
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
How would an ex-gf know where I was without searching the info out?
Posting on the AJC blog only when their ex is on?
All while supposedly planning a wedding and having a child soon?
This is the psychosis I dealt with…
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
Chica,
How did your experiment go?
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
Don’t tell lies on the blog and I won’t call you out on it, ok?
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Why do you feel you have any business IN my life? Policing, at that?
By chuck
December 8, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
Good morning everybody. I hope everybody has had a great week. I hate to violate Joke Friday, but NETB brought up the Baker-Hamilton Commission report and I just had to comment. The biggest joke of this week is the commission report.
72john, you ought to be thrilled with this. If this report is implemented in any substantial way we will have become FRANCE, which I know is the secret wish of most liberals. This is nothing more than Baker’s TYPICAL tendency to appease rather than defeat.
The most egregious part of the report involves who we should “talk” to to solve the problems we have there:
Given the ability of Iran and Syria to influence events within Iraq and their interest in avoiding chaos in Iraq, the United States should try to engage them constructively.
FIRST, Iraq and Syria ARE CAUSING AND ABETTING THE INSTABILITY IN IRAQ. Why in the world would they want to work WITH US to stabilize Iraq? They would only do this under 2 conditions. One that we agree that we would not preemptively strike Iran’s nuclear program and Two that we would not interfere with Syria’s attempt to undermine the duly elected government of Lebanon. Both of these would be totally unacceptable and put us at risk.
Second, it ties the problem in Iraq to the broader problem of “peace in the Middle East”. These reallyn are 2 separate issues. Any attempt to marry the issues undermines our relationship with Israel…our only real ally in the region, and it puts Israel itself at risk. The truth is, we ought to unmuzzle Israel where it concerns the Palestinians and Hezbollah. There will never be a lasting peace in the M.E. until those 2 groups are neutered.
There are many other problems with this report, but the overall stupidity of it is that it does not address the real issues that we face in Iraq. It is less an attempt to win victory in Iraq than it is an attempt to fix the political problems at home. There is a new book out that I have read excerpts from that was written by a guy who is a researcher for the Library of Congress. I wish I could remember the name of it, but I’ll have to find it later. In any event, his study showed the progression of Islamic Fascism and how they had continued taking over more and more areas and instead of fighting this takeover, every country in which it has happened and indeed is happening now (like in France and England. In fact one book is titled Londonistan)has made CONCESSIONS rather than fighting it. This has only succeeded in emboldening these groups to OPENLY support terrorists and terrorist organizations.
For once, President Bush has it exactly right. You don’t sit down and negotiate with terrorists. You destroy them. NOTHING ELSE WORKS. The only communication President Bush ought to have with Iran is a couple of bunker busting nukes into their nuclear facilities. Included with this message should be an addendum, that if they keep supplying weapons and people to the insurgency in Iraq, they will be next. The majority of the people in Iran want freedom and western style democracy but are afraid to fight for it. Their smarmy little president knows that largely because of the democrats and the liberal media our country is divided and that we are no longer acting from a position of strength but weakness. He is trying to exploit that fact.
We need to give Israel free reign to deal with Syria and Lebanon. That would kill their ability to send people and weapons over the border into Iraq. We ought also to give them the same message as Iran. There should be consequences for what they are doing.
Finally, to solve the “Iraq Problem”, we need to do a few things. First we need to get the media out of Iraq. Certainly, they should be able to stay in the green zone and attend media briefings, but we don’t need cameras following our troops around. This practice puts our troops in danger in 2 ways. First it inhibits them. They have to think about how something might look (even if it is the right action to take). It’s like having your boss looking over your shoulder ALL THE TIME while you are trying to work. Even though you would do your job anyway, it makes you lose focus and worry more about appearances than about substance. Second, it incites civilians against our troops. The media does not show entire engagements, it instead focuses on the worst things that happen…sometimes I think they do so intentionally because they don’t like the military.
The next step in solving Iraq is to change the rules of engagement. We have to understand that when we go into a residential neighborhood where these bomb builders are, we have to expect collateral damage. The civilians who are protecting these terrorists might get killed in the cross fire. We ought to try to minimize that, but not at the expense of the mission or our soldiers lives.
Finally, we need to put enough boots on the ground to finish this thing once and for all. These folks need to understand that while we wish for them the freedoms that we have, our first concern is eliminating threats to America. Let’s admit it, we ARE an occupying force and we need to start acting like one. If they hate us for that they can get over it. They put themselves in this position when they allowed Hussein to remain in power. We will get them out of it, but it might not be pretty.
A last analogy. What happens when parents “appease” their children rather than consistently, fairly discipline them? It rewards bad behaviors and those behaviors WILL BE REPEATED. In parenting, No means no. If it doesn’t, children grow up thinking that they can have whatever they want and do whatever they want without work and with no consequence. That is a recipe for disaster in the lives of those children. It will damage every aspect of their lives.
Like it or not, the rest of the world has gone the way of appeasement when it comes to terrorism. They no longer know how to stand against them. It is up to us. Bush has taken bad advice and needs to right the ship. He especially needs to not listen to Baker, whose advice to Bush 1 ended up with him getting the WIMP label and America losing the respect of these terrorists. They understand strength and they exploit weakness.
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Why do you feel you have any business IN my life? Policing, at that?
Because I really can’t stand your BS. You talk about things that are not true and try to give others advice based on fictions scenarios. The whole ‘I am smarter/better than everyone else’ rouse that you tried to sell me. Furthermore you started referencing me, then I called you on your BS. So go sell crazy somewhere else, we’re all stocked up here!
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
Sorry should have read: fictitious scenarios.
By Mara
December 8, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
What happens when parents “appease” their children rather than consistently, fairly discipline them?
and just who appointed the U.S. to be the Big Spankin’ Daddy o’ the World? What gives OUR government the “right” to “discipline” other, older, nations?!
They put themselves in this position when they allowed Hussein to remain in power
yeah, how dare they “allow” a merciless and vicious murderer to stay in power?! Especially after they saw how gently he dealt with the insurgent Kurds at Halabja!? They should have just impeached him and told him they didn’t want him anymore, despite the little detail of him having control of the army, the police, the food, the hospitals, and the media. Heck, we all know he would’ve been more than happy to step down quietly. If only his people hadn’t allowed him to feed them into wood chippers, rape their women and children, and use poison gas on their neighbors, why we wouldn’t have been FORCED to destroy their country looking for non-existant WMDs and Al Qaeda agents…right chuck?
Don’t you know ANYTHING about the nature of brutal dictatorships!? “ALLOWED Hussein to remain in power”?!! Sheesh!
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this
So go sell crazy somewhere else, we’re all stocked up here!
Ain’t that the truth.
Crazy to contact my nieces and me after months…
The only part that I posted that was somewhat fabricated was that I was still down south with my gf. I was playing a housewife role there for a month and now here since I have much more time than my brother. I did not want you to be able to continue tracking me down, but it seems you got the info from my nieces. How inappropriate would it be for me to contact your sister under the guise to chat and be friends just to get info on you? How would that reflect on my personal well being? You just keep digging your BS hole deeper and deeper.
BTW - I figure “hahaha” is lozen or such and thought you should know “Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies” was the person that posted as Reggie.
Aqua-girl This is who I was referencing and what I had to get away from…
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
So go sell crazy somewhere else, we’re all stocked up here!
Ain’t that the truth.
Crazy to contact my nieces and me after months…
The only part that I posted that was somewhat fabricated was that I was still down south with my gf. I was playing a housewife role there for a month and now here since I have much more time than my brother. I did not want you to be able to continue tracking me down, but it seems you got the info from my nieces. How inappropriate would it be for me to contact your sister under the guise to chat and be friends just to get info on you? How would that reflect on my personal well being? You just keep digging your BS hole deeper and deeper.
BTW - I figure “hahaha” is lozen or such and thought you should know “Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies” was the person that posted as Reggie.
Aqua-girl This is who I was referencing and what I had to get away from…
By Monica
December 8, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
Personal attacks are only allowed when the usual bloggers have a disagreement over an issue, namely Chuck and 72 John (LOL). FM and his ex-es, please keep your domestic disputes out of the blog. We don’t want to know. Thanks!
By GeorgeH.W.
December 8, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
Now you Iraqis dissatisfied with your despotic leader need to rise up against him and overthrow him. Our F16s and tanks will sit idly by.
Any wagers on the body count when it fails?
By Kevin
December 8, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this
What happened to joke Friday? The blog morphed into “As the World Turns” today.
Have a great weekend all - try to stay warm!
By chuck
December 8, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Romania had a brutal dictator until 1989. Over 30 years in just ONE of his prisons over 60,000 people were arrested and never heard from again. They found hundreds of mass graves with hundreds of thousands of bodies buried in them. When he brutally put down a protest in a town called Timosora(sp?) the people got fed up and a mass revolution began.
Ceaucescu tried to escape by helicopter, but was stopped, given a trial on Christmas Day and then executed. Almost every civilian in the country rose up against him and he was defeated.
Remember. The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
By Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies
December 8, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
I have not once spoken to/communicated with the twins, or anyone else in your family. Don’t tell lies on the blog and I won’t call you out on it, ok?
By LastJoke
December 8, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
Apple Computer reported today that it has developed computer chips that can store and play music inside women’s breasts. This is considered to be a major breakthrough because women frequently complain about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.
By NetBanker
December 8, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
It seems rather easy to sit back to be the armchair general and give advice to those living under brutal dictators to rise up than it would be to actually do it, don’t y’all think? I don’t suppose the commission report is a joke because it reflects a reality that Chuck doesn’t want to accept. Couldn’t be that, could it? Obviously a former Secretary of State wouldn’t know a hill o’ beans about international relations or understanding the socio/economic/political/cultural nuances of a particular regions and how those might be a strong influence on how one deals with them or what methods just might be successful.
We should have just finished the damn job right in Afghanistan and turned our efforts to energy independence. Without that we continue to shovel money to the very countries that whose Muslim populations hate us to begin with. And let’s face it…one day the oil will dry up and we COULD just be in the position to be the energy supplier to the world. Turning the tables would be the most sweet revenge there is!!
By FatMoose
December 8, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
Monica,
I agree and did not want this to occur either. I apologize for my contribution.
By Suzi-Q
December 8, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this
I have some jokes. Don’t mean to be sexist with these just want to get in on joke day.
A man and his wife, now in their 60’s, were celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary. On their special day a good fairy came to them and said that because they had been so good that each one of them could have one wish. The wife wished for a trip around the world with her husband.
Whoosh! Immediately she had airline/cruise tickets in her hands. The man wished for a female companion 30 years younger… Whoosh…immediately he turned ninety!!! Gotta love that fairy!
By Suzi-Q
December 8, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
One day my housework-challenged boyfriend decided to wash his Sweatshirt. Seconds after he stepped into the laundry room, he shouted to me, “What setting do I use on the washing machine?” “It depends,” I replied. “What does it say on your shirt?” He yelled back, “University of Oklahoma.”
By BS_Meter
December 8, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RomanianRevolutionof_1989
By NetBanker
December 8, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this
Suzi-Q…ROFLMAO! Those were priceless! Thanks for ending my day with a good laugh!
Happy weekending everyone and stay warm! When in doubt use the environmentally friendly method of body heat not only can you get warm, but depending on how you can have a lot of fun too!
By alibabame
December 8, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this
Good-girl-turned-bad Britney Spears has topped an eclectic list of the net’s most popular searches n the run-up to Christmas. The popstar[URL=replica-watch.fws1.com],[/URL]who hit the headlines last week for stepping out “commando” with her new best friend Paris Hilton[URL=item-promotional.atspace.com],[/URL]has helped revealed exactly what the internet savvy are looking for from their stars - the thick and the dead.
By TramadoL27841
December 8, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this
I just don’t have much to say these days, but so it goes. Today was a total loss. I guess it doesn’t bother me.
By TramadoL76668
December 8, 2006 07:50 PM | Link to this
Not much on my mind these days, but what can I say? It’s not important. I just don’t have much to say lately. I’ve just been letting everything pass me by recently, but eh.
By Sunglasses
December 12, 2006 10:38 PM | Link to this
Man Prada Sunglasses Man Prada Sunglasses Site Map Limited Edition Style BOTTEGA VENETA BOUCHERON BURBERRY BVLGARI CAZAL CESARE PACIOTTI