AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2006 > July > 14 > Entry
Should women be discreet when breast feeding?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Breasts are indecent on nursing mothers but focal points on the cover of Maxim Magazine. Despite the many pro-mother breastfeeding rights women retain, public expectation calls for modesty. The results of this disconnect are angry mothers: They hold a strike. Then the retailer gets a lesson on the intended use of nipples.
This year’s story has a delicious, ironic twist. The retailer was Victoria’s Secret. I guess when you’re trying to sell gravity-defying breasts as a sexual commodity, having a pair hanging down takes away from the whole push-up bra fandango.
But don’t confuse this issue about breastfeeding rights. Even Victoria’s Secret knows this is a ridiculous diversion, which is why the store clerk was quickly reprimanded. This issue is about a woman’s breasts, a body part eroticized to such a distorted degree its intended use is no longer viewed as natural; it’s perverse.
A Victoria’s Secret shopper denied the right to nurse her child in public view is a glaring reminder how the intended use of a body part can be so misrepresented, being seen in its natural state is a public affront and a Freudian embarrassment for those who share an obsession so prevalent, nursing mothers must consider prurient male gazes while feeding their infant.
This is sick.
It’s unfortunate that some women today feel embarrassed to breastfeed because of all the publicity, says Kara Weilding, a La Leche League leader, who counsels new mothers on the art of breastfeeding. “But this attitude comes from our attitude toward women’s bodies. Americans just aren’t accustomed to seeing breasts in a natural situation. Janet Jackson flashes a breast and it becomes a huge controversy.”
But American social convention encourages objectification instead of curbing sexual vulgarity. Instead of addressing this problem we make women feel self-conscience and ashamed of breastfeeding their babies. But mothers are just doing what they need to do for their children, Weilding explains. “Our baby’s needs come first.”
Rebuttal
This may sound harsh, but the small number of militant breast-feeders who want to let it all hang out in public aren’t prioritizing their babies, but themselves. They want to stand on their rights and do what they want, in the way that they want, regardless of the embarrassment or discomfort it causes someone else.
The vast majority of breastfeeding moms try to be discreet in public. I breastfed my first child for 15 months, and most of us moms know that sitting in a restaurant, nursing bare-chested for twenty minutes is bound to make the people at the next table uncomfortable. And it makes us pretty uncomfortable, too. So we do what we can to discreetly turn aside or cover up. But the exceptions to that rule –– such as the “lactivists” who stage bare-chested “nurse-ins” at Starbucks just to make a point – almost seem to relish causing discomfort in others.
The fact that breastfeeding is natural and beautiful doesn’t somehow neutralize the additional fact that people simply get embarrassed when private, sexual body parts are put on public display. Maxim didn’t sexualize the breast – its cave-painting predecessors make that very clear. A married man shouldn’t have to apologize for being uncomfortable at the sight of another woman’s naked body: shouldn’t we be appreciating that fact instead of calling it sick? What would be sick, frankly, is if he would choose to sit and stare at the natural and beautiful event going on nearby.
In the end, this controversy isn’t about breastfeeding. It’s about the Golden Rule; about treating others the way you would want to be treated. If by some stretch of the imagination there was something that could make a lactivist uncomfortable, would they like it flaunted in their faces? There is no reason women can’t attend to their babies’ needs and be mindful of others at the same time.
Ironically, it turns out that the Victoria’s Secret shopper wasn’t nursing in public view, but was actually trying to do what she could to be discreet, by trying to nurse privately in the dressing room. What a good idea.
Comments
By Chilao
July 14, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
Have read abit about this specific case. And wondered what all the fuss was about with those who think women should breast feed in private. I have seen many women sitting and breast-feeding in public, I thought it very natural, did not find it physically stimulating at all(to me), and certainly did not develop a sudden urge to rape them, if you remember a topic from a month or so ago. I really think that a company that restricts breast-feeding should be boycotted, etc.
By The72John
July 14, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
In the end, this controversy isn’t about breastfeeding. It’s about the Golden Rule; about treating others the way you would want to be treated. If by some stretch of the imagination there was something that could make a lactivist uncomfortable, would they like it flaunted in their faces? There is no reason women can’t attend to their babies’ needs and be mindful of others at the same time.
Well, since this is such an incredibly lame topic, let’s go ahead and drag religion into it.
Shaunti and other ultra-religious types seem to have no concern whatsoever with “flaunting” their religion to people who are made uncomfortable by it. If Shaunti has to see an occasional boob from time to time with a baby attached to it, maybe that’s just karma.
By Kaka87731
July 15, 2006 04:04 AM | Link to this
Not much on my mind lately. My life’s been completely boring these days. I’ve just been hanging out not getting anything done. So it goes.
By Kaka76404
July 16, 2006 07:16 PM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen. Whatever. Not much on my mind lately. I guess it doesn’t bother me.
By Kaka42822
July 17, 2006 02:50 AM | Link to this
I just don’t have much to say recently. Such is life. I’ve basically been doing nothing. Basically nothing seems worth bothering with. Oh well.
By Lyrazel
July 17, 2006 07:30 AM | Link to this
O ye militant breast-feeders take warning Shaunti is on a roll to protect decent men from your ranks of lactating radicals!
By candide
July 17, 2006 07:45 AM | Link to this
What a dumb question! It is to me obvious that breast feeding ia a natural act. But so is defacating and pissing. What sort of woman wants to let it all hang out?
By Lyrazel
July 17, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this
candide: there is quite a lot of difference in breast feeding one infant and letting it all hang out. Why in bikini season more skin is exposed than normal breast feeders show and for longer periods of time but seldom a complaint on the excessive amount of skin allowed to be hung out and nary a cop on the beach arrests the women adorned in such hang-out splendor.
Urinating in public, urinating in a store, or urinating in-line waiting for coffee is not the same as breast feeding. I do feel changing diapers should be done in bathrooms and not at the dining booth or at the airplane seat then handed off to the flight attendant as she passes with the drinks cart…
By Whiley
July 17, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this
I wasn’t aware this was such a problem. sigh.
Women have bigger & better topics to discuss other than boobs.
By DPR
July 17, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this
If I recall from the Mom Blog, the problem in this case is that the woman at VS wanted to use a dressing room to nurse her baby. The problem here is that she could be tying up that room for 30-40 minutes, denying its use to paying customers who do not have nearly an hour to wait to be fitted.
To boycott a business for trying to protect its profits and its own customers is ludicrous. Many of are guilty of walking out of a restaurant if we are told the wait time will be 45-60 minutes….so what makes you think a customer will be so thrilled to wait that long for a changing room???
I’m all for taking care of your baby the best way you know how, but not at the obvious expense of others. This woman had many options for where to nurse her child…patrons at VS do NOT have other options of where to go try on their garments before purchasing.
By Kaka71354
July 17, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this
I just don’t have anything to say. Not that it matters. Eh. I’ve just been staying at home doing nothing, but I don’t care. That’s how it is.
By klm
July 17, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this
Well, as a woman who as a rule actually likes breasts (yes, I date women), I think I have a somewhat unique perspective. I really, REALLY feel uncomfortable when I see a woman breastfeeding. It’s like an elephant in the room. “Don’t look there! She’s doing that thing that people think is natural! Whatever you do, don’t look over there! Oh no! She’s talking to me! Don’t look down there!” It’s just akward. And yes, it’s natural to DO it, but not natural to do it in a coffee shop. Sex is natural, too. Want to hook up in Starbucks? I don’t think so.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this
Such an unnatural act. The children should have to scream at the top of their lungs until Mom can go home to feed them.
By Archie
July 17, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this
Yes women should be discreet when breast-feeding but then people should not be overly sensitive if they see a woman breast-feeding her child.
By Brian Curtis
July 17, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this
This is a bit of a tired debate, and it’s a shame that nothing of more substance was offered this week. But here goes:
What’s “natural” has nothing to do with what’s polite in civilized society. Public urination is equally natural, yet no more acceptable. Get over it.
The real complaint from some people on Diane’s side—-at least, a few of those who like to call themselves militant feminists—-is that breasts are being “sexualized” instead of worshipped as the font of nurturing maternity. (Replacing one form of sexism with another seems okay to them, I guess.)
Or, more to the point, outrage that sexuality even exists, which some nuts on both extremes inexplicably find offensive. This is why you get nuts like Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin siding with the Religious Reich on censorship issues. Distaste for sexuality is the driving force here, not respect for “motherhood.”
But sexuality is part of our society too. Overly hyped and commercially exploited? You betcha. Taken to an unhealthy degree in our consumer-driven and maniacal society? Obviously. But inherently bad? No way.
I wonder if Diane realizes the trap she’s falling into by embracing the “natural function” argument of breastfeeding; that is, by accepting there’s an “intended purpose” for breasts built into our bodies, she’s making the same arguments that were made against women joining the workforce. “Your biology is your destiny—-don’t depart from your intended function” was the misogynist’s argument for keeping women barefoot and pregnant, chained to the role of wife and mother only.
If you want to debate media portrayals of women and the unrealistic standards of “beauty and perfection,” that’s a legitimate gripe. But bitching about Victoria’s Secret—-and protesting via public rudeness and the declaration that breasts have a biological Purpose to be revered—-is just dumb.
“Sex is natural, sex is good; not everybody does it, but everybody should.” –George Michael—
By Mara
July 17, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this
I can’t articulate why but I too feel very uncomfortable with public breast-feeding. It makes me feel…”Ewwwwww! Gross!” Were I seeing this at a restaurant, I’d probably get up and leave.
Don’t know why, because intellectually I agree with it 100%. Emotionally, not so much.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
“Women have bigger & better topics to discuss other than boobs.”
Amen Whiley. :)
By GOB
July 17, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this
Its almost like they are having a competition to see who can come up with the least interesting topic each week…
By Lola
July 17, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
There is no reason why a woman would ever need to breast feed in public, when there’s a wonderful invention called a breast pump, which would enable her to fill some bottles up with her breast milk and feed her baby with them when she’s out in public.
The only reason a woman would breastfeed in public is for attention, or because she’s militant like the La Leche women are, and I think they’re militant for basically the same reason: attention.
I consider my bowel movements a very natural process as well, but correctly assume that nobody else wants to see that kind of natural act in progress, so I use restrooms instead of dressing stalls or food court tables for that.
If I see someone breastfeeding in public, I stare. I stare at her face and I stare at her boob and do my best to make the woman as self-concious as possible to the point of discomfort. I figure she’s putting me into an uncomfortable position, so the least I can do is return the favor. Buy a breast pump, ladies!! There’s no excuse for whipping those things out in public.
And yes, I’m a mother who breast fed my daughter, and who used a breast pump before heading out of the house so she could still get the breat milk without me making a spectacle of myself and her.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this
“Women have bigger & better topics to discuss other than boobs.”
Amen Whiley. :)
You must be a masochist Jack…let the male-bashing begin.
By Toad
July 17, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
I have mixed feelings about this too. It makes me uncomfortable to see breast feeding in public, but I think women have the right to do so. I agree with kim about it being the elephant in the room. Maybe if it were done more I’d become de-sensitized and not notice it so much.
I love breasts but I don’t understand why a woman’s nipple is so verboten when men’s nipples are perfectably acceptable in public, as in the furor over Janet Jackson’s nipple flash. I’d like to mow grass without wearing a shirt without it being a big deal.
By The Kids
July 17, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this
Y’all need to get the F#$@! OVER yourselves! Not everything is about YOU, beeeeyotch!
By Jack
July 17, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
I like Whiley.
By Chilao
July 17, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
I wonder if any of the topless sunbathing that occurs regularly in most European cities during female office-workers summer LUNCH-hour makes any guys UN-comfortable? hmmmmmmmmmm…
wagers, anyone? LMAO
By The72John
July 17, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
I like Whiley
God only knows why. If she were ever to encounter you in public you would be at risk of being maced.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
I disagree with some of you about the lameness of this topic. While not important on the level of some other issues, this is pretty controversial among a few. Just like almost every other issue.
This topic causes me some queasiness. Not because I am disgusted by breastfeeding. (I’m not.) Not because I think it shouldn’t be allowed in public. (It should.) No, I find myself uneasy with the fact that I largely agree with Shaunti. And Candide.
Yes, breastfeeding is natural. Yes, we shouldn’t place restrictions on it. But just as I would not walk around in public belching to my heart’s content even though I am free to do so, breastfeeding mothers can show a little discretion. Use a blanket to cover yourself whenever possible. Find a comfortable spot in a relatively secluded place.
Now, I know that’s what the mother in the Victoria’s Secret anecdote was trying to do, but I side with the store here. I’ve been in Victoria’s Secret. The one in our local mall only has two dressing rooms. That means two people can try on things at the same time. If one person is in one for half an hour, well, I can see how VS might have a problem with that.
Now, as to the reasons people have issues with public breastfeeding: it involves a part of the body that is, at least in part, sexual, and that is the typical reaction of a large segment of society whenever anything related to sex of the excretory system is concerned. It’s not some Freudian obsession on the part of men. We like boobies because they are used for breastfeeding. Evolutionarily speaking, breasts are indicators of a healty potential mother. It’s ingrained in us. Well, some of us.
I am completely comfortable with being around a breastfeeding woman except for the fact that I do not know what her feelings are. My instinct to look at an exposed breast is no less natural than the mother’s and child’s breastfeeding instinct. I won’t stare, but I’ll glance at first because that’s what I’m made to do.
In fact, I think the amount and obviousness of the watching the woman should be directly proportional to the amount and obviousness of breast exposed. If a woman is going to sit there with both boobs hanging out, then I should just get the table next to her and flat-out stare.
As it is, though, you sit there nearby trying both not to look and appear like you’re not trying not to look at the same time. It’s like you’re in a locker room or shower in high school. If you look at other guys, you’re gay. If you are obvious about not looking, you’re gay and trying to hide it. You can’t look at the woman breastfeeding or you’re a perv, but if you purposefully avert your eyes, then you’re disgusted by “a beautifula nd natural act”…
By pitbull
July 17, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
I have been on group picnics and church softball outings where I was just minding my own business and going back to the car for something or looking to see if one of my kids had run off and unexpectantly come upon one of my friend’s wives with her breast or breasts out nursing a baby. I can only say that I felt shocked and embarrassed that I had gone somewhere that I shouldn’t have, but had no way of knowing. I felt anger at being placed in that unintended situation akin to someone who sees another person exposing themselves. I am not saying a mom breast feeding in public is wrong, but I also know that it can make others feel uncomfortable when exposed (no pun intended) to it.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
It’s not just men that are made uncomfortable by breastfeeding. My wife is uncomfortable with it. Far more so than I am.
By kimberly
July 17, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this
Pitbull, how traumatic for you. Perhaps you should give up softball and deal with your anger issues.
Lola, how nice that you had TIME in your day for both pumping and feeding the baby, and running errands. I’m guessing you didn’t have a job outside the home or a bunch of other hungry kids at the time.
The Kids are right: not everything is about you! I can’t think of even one time I saw a breastfeeding woman who was “hanging out” in public. Most are to the side, with a little burpee cloth, exposing only what’s necessary, which is a LOT less that what you see hanging out on teenagers all over the place! That being said, I’d much rather SEE a baby on a boob than HEAR one screaming for the boob it needs but can’t have so Lola and Shautni won’t be offended! Really, people. How sad that this is even a topic.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
Kimberly — I agree. Many mothers cannot pump for whatever eason, and if your baby has to eat every 3-4 hours and you happen to get stuck somewhere and have used your pre-prepared bottle, then there’s no option but breastfeeding. Most mothers are discreet about it. But that’s the topic: “Should women be discreet when breast feeding?” Well, yes! Like you said, most already are. But when one goes against the norm and pulls both breasts out of her shirt, then she should expect people to be a little weirded out by it. If for no other reason than the fact that most women are discreet about it.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
Hi Sweet Thing. Missed ya.:)
By kimberly
July 17, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
Hey Darlin’! Busy these days, but had to comment on this one. I’ll try to get through the day without offending anyone with my big American you-know-whats! Haha! {;->
By The72John
July 17, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
yeah, my sister had those breastfeeding blouses and shirts with the flaps. My nephews could hook on and go to town without anyone seeing anything.
By Toad
July 17, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
I went back and looked at the initial question: “Should Breastfeeding Women be Discreet?” and I think the one thing we all agree on is, yes, they should be discreet. The real question is whether they should breastfeed in public.
So, my question is: Since the AJC keeps coming up with lame topics, such as this one, what questions would you like Diane and Shaunti to address?
By Billy
July 17, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
yeah, my sister had those breastfeeding blouses and shirts with the flaps. My nephews could hook on and go to town without anyone seeing anything.
Right. I’m not about to start telling women not to breastfeed in public, but I do think a little discretion isn’t out of order.
By RF
July 17, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this
Yep, this one is lame, and here we are anyway! LOL
It amazes me, with all the fascination there is out there with breasts and displaying all but the nipple in public, that we would even have this debate. Yes, women can pump at home, but as any parent knows, all the planning in the world doesn’t mean squat to an unhappy, hungry, or tired baby. I don’t recall ever seeing a woman plop one out there in the middle of the mall for Junior, but I have seen many women discreetly cover themselves and do the job. It’s better than hearing the little bugger scream, and it’s what nature intended the doggone things for. What’s ironic is that women cover themselves to do what nature gave them the ability to do, and people would complain. But, ask any straight guy if he has a problem with string bikinis or wet t-shirt contests, and he’ll look at you like you’re crazy. Flaunt ‘em all you want ladies, just don’t use them for their natural purpose while we’re looking. Yet another example of the scads of double standards we live by in this great society of ours.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
If an adult cannot handle seeing a woman breastfeed, they should just stay at home.
By Kyle
July 17, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
-i’ve never come across a woman breatfeeding in public. to me its pretty simple: be discrete and mindful of others whenever possible (and do it in private if possible), but when your caught in a situation where you have no options, do whatcha gotta do
ok, i thought last week’s topic wasn’t going to last the entire week, and i was suprised when we were still talking about it on friday - but there is no way this topic lasts the entire week, weds. tops
By Jack
July 17, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this
“So, my question is: Since the AJC keeps coming up with lame topics, such as this one, what questions would you like Diane and Shaunti to address?”
How bout if size does really matter. LOL
By Chilao
July 17, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
How bout if size does really matter.LOL
breast size? I think it does matter for milk production, if you look at the high-producing udders on dairy-breed Holstein cows, those mammary glands are rather huge compared to low-volume beef breeds. Does that mean a DD natural cup produces more milk than a A-cup?
Let me guess, probably not what you meant, right? LMAO
(whole post a joke, btw)
By The72John
July 17, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
How about “Should the AJC can Shaunti and Diane in favor of fresh blood”.
By Larry
July 17, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
SHAME on all uptight prudes!
By Toad
July 17, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
How about “Should the AJC can Shaunti and Diane in favor of fresh blood”.
Hear, Hear! Applause, cheering, hooting!
By Billy
July 17, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
RF, I don’t have a problem with the breastfeeding. Hell, I don’t have a problem with public nudity. But I’m going to look at nudity, exposed breasts included, whether or not they have babies attached to them. And while I don’t have a problem with string bikinis, I do have a problem with them in certain settings. If someone is going to have a wet t-shirt contest, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to show a little discretion and do it in an appropriate setting.
By kimberly
July 17, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
Jack, a lady always answers that question, “No, of course not!” Hahaha!
By Beth
July 17, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Society is obsessed with women’s breasts but the minute they are used for what God intended, then everyone wants them put away. I just don’t understand it.
By tclark
July 17, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
As a mother who breastfed my baby for 18 months. There is nothing wrong with breastfeeding discreetly in public. And for the woman who said pump it and bring it. What if you are out longer than expected? You probably didn’t bring enough, because you don’t want to take a chance wasting it. Also some babies will not take a bottle if “mom is there with the good stuff at just the right temp.” I have never seen a woman just straight up bare her whole breast in public, maybe by accident for example- you have one of babies who are into every sound going on and unlatch really quickly. I am more uncomfortable seeing all this flesh, nipples thru shirts, tight, stank looking pants and shorts, and thongs hanging out of the back on clothes. If my baby needs to be feed, by all means I will turn to the side, latch my baby and try to keep it covered up to the best of my ability.
By GOB
July 17, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this
Society is obsessed with women’s breasts but the minute they are used for what God intended, then everyone wants them put away. I just don’t understand it.
This certainly seems like a rational reading of the posts so far today…
By Peach
July 17, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
Yes, women should be discreet, but more public places need to have family-friendly restrooms where parents and small children can go together to rest, nurse, etc. This is the same argument as smoking in public places - make designated areas for the behavior to occur for the courtesy of those who don’t want to be around it, but banning it seems discriminatory….Although that raises the question, did our forefathers fight for the freedom to smoke/breastfeed where we choose? I think not.
Ok, now can we talk about something relevant? Like the fact that if we get involved in the whole Israel/Hezbollah situation that we may have a draft to get more soldiers and that Bush probably won’t be in office long enough to see it through (much less the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts), so he’d be leaving behind this huge mess for someone else to clean up? Sort of like Vietnam? Or the Great Depression?
By Billy
July 17, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
hehehe — “stank”
By Billy
July 17, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
Thank you, Peach. Well said.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
Yeah. JFK was going to get us out and LBJ thought it was a good idea to “see it through”. Texans make great presidents don’t they?
By Toad
July 17, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
Peach, check out “Thinking Right” blog. Israel is the topic of the day.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
Peach, check out “Thinking Right” blog. Israel is the topic of the day.
If you want rational discussion, the “Thinking Right” blog isn’t the place to go. All they ever do is call each other pinkos and commies and facists.
By GOB
July 17, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
If you want rational discussion, the “Thinking Right” blog isn’t the place to go. All they ever do is call each other pinkos and commies and facists.
Yeah, there is a healthy dose of crazy there today…
By singlemom
July 17, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
Well, I actually had to breastfeed my child in a victoria secrets dressing room. AND I WAS A PAYING CUSTOMER!! My child was hungry so I did what I had to do - feed my child. My child is my number 1 priority!!!!!
God gave women breasts in order to feed our children. Men made them sexual. Why do men have to control women’s bodies? It’s my body, I’ll do what I damn well please with it. It belongs to ME!!!!
By barbie Skalleberg
July 17, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Wow, you all ned to go to Sweden and see how it’s done there.
By barbie Skalleberg
July 17, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Wow, you all ned to go to Sweden and see how it’s done there.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this
It’s my body, I’ll do what I damn well please with it. It belongs to ME!!!!
Well, by this logic I could whip it out and take a big ole whizzzz wherever I wanted.
By Toad
July 17, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
Yep, I was called a pinko by one of Wooten’s wacko’s.
By CFBC
July 17, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this
I never thought I would see the day when I agreed with Shaunti on anything. I should check the weather report for hell.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Well, I actually had to breastfeed my child in a victoria secrets dressing room. AND I WAS A PAYING CUSTOMER!!
What about the two or twelve paying customers who may have tried to use the dressing room while you were breastfeeding?
God gave women breasts in order to feed our children. Men made them sexual. Why do men have to control women’s bodies?
Men find breasts sexual because it’s in our blood. We find breasts sexy because breasts equal, evolutionarily/biologically speaking, a healthy female of childbearing age. If mean didn’t find breasts sexual, breastfeeding would not be an issue because few men would be nearly as attracted to women as they would 12 year-old boys.
By Bridget
July 17, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
Lola——not all babies will accept a bottle. I did try expressing milk, mostly because I was over the whole breast feeding thing at 6 months but could not get my baby to drink from a bottle. I can not believe you are that immature to sit and stare.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Yep, I was called a pinko by one of Wooten’s wacko’s.
Everytime I venture onto either that blog or the Lukovich blog, I realize how tame we actually are, even when we get heated.
By Kelly
July 17, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
I take issue with the comment that women who choose to nurse in public are trying to make a political or activist style statement. I have nursed all 3 of my children in public- not to prove a point but to provide them the nourishment that their bodies need. If a bottle-fed baby had the right to be fed on demand, so should a nursling. Further, having suffered through all three nursing experiences with clogged ducts and mastitis, having delayed feeding my infants upon demand would not only have hungered them unneccessarily, but could have endangered my health as well. What the media needs to remember is that while there are some “lactivists” out there who may nurse bare-chested to prove their point, most of us are just loving mothers who take care of their children.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this
“Wow, you all ned to go to Sweden and see how it’s done there. “
Sounds like fun.
Rational discussion? hahahahaha!
By singlemom
July 17, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
@the72john - what’s stopping you? Plenty of guys I know just whip it out when they feel the urge. Oh but wait - public urination is against the law, breast feeing ISN’T. I have a group I play poker with and all the guys go outside and pee in the back yard of the house we are at. The world is a man’s urinal and you all feel the need to “mark your territory”. That’s ok, but if I whip out my breasts to feed my child - then it’s not ok and I should run to the nearest closet to do what God intended me to do with them.
By Jack
July 17, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
singlemom. I sense a bit of anger in your post. Does it bother you that men enjoy women’s breasts? Do you think a man was at Victoria Secrets and wouldn’t permit the lady from doing her motherly duty?
By voyeurweb
July 17, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
singlemom, by all means, let it all hang out.
By gman
July 17, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
God gave women breasts in order to feed our children. Men made them sexual.
I don’t agree with that 100%. in a woman’s body, nerve endings of the nipple tie in with another sexual part of the body. To give you an example, ever scratched a dog in the righ spot and seen his hind leg go crazy? I leave that for your imagination.
I’m not for the woman that “whips it out” and cries “It’s my right.” Though I’m all for the ones that use “breastfeeding-friendly clothing”.
By L.Grizzard
July 17, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
It’s my body, I’ll do what I damn well please with it. It belongs to ME!!!!
singlemom, does that include dancin nekkid and selling…….
By Billy
July 17, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
I never thought I would see the day when I agreed with Shaunti on anything. I should check the weather report for hell.
No kidding…
By Don KeBallz
July 17, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
I wish more women breast fed their kids, especially latinas with large breasts!!!!!
By Shae
July 17, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
It appears some are making comment that have never experienced breastfeeding. First of all, I doubt very seriously any mother just “wants” to do this in public. When it’s time for your baby to eat your breast automatically starts to leak and fill up. At that moment, regardless of where you are….you have to feed your baby. It’s not about waiting to you get home. I breastfeed 2 of my 3 kids and everytime I tried to be as private as possible. This was not because I was ashamed it was mainly because of the uncomfort feeling and ignorance of others.
By Zack
July 17, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
You’re joking, right? THIS is the question of the week?
Beyond the shadow of a doubt, YES, THEY SHOULD BE DISCREET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John, I hope you have a good day, and I hope you will do something unprecedented and show some objectivity. I’ve called you on your hatred-filled name-calling, and I know that it’s probably hard for you to hear me with all your fellow members of the gay community falsely accusing heterosexuals of that (definitely the pot calling the kettle “black”).
A certain person last week accused me of being what John is and said that I should put aside my religious beliefs and search for the truth. My friend, why don’t you get away from the computer, turn off your cellular phone, stay away from your TV and video-game system, and think for a minute about what you said. Why don’t you search for the truth? Why don’t you challenge and discern? Why don’t you use reason and wisdom? Why don’t you log out of this woman/woman blog, which oftentimes asks ridiculous questions, to be honest, and focus on what’s really important? Why don’t you read the Bible? Why don’t you study and pray? Why don’t you do some unbiased and objective searching? My friend, that statement was beyond wrong.
To the lady who yelled at me for not talking about what she and her friends were, I responded to the question on the blog. Please do not be so arrogant to think that people have to respond to your thoughts each time.
By Zack
July 17, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
John,
The same woman who said “it’s my body” obviously is going with the same logical fallacy that the pro-choice movement uses and also that the pro-public-smoking crowd uses (there are others). Again, person A does NOT have the right to violate the rights of person B. It’s very simple. You’re not stupid, John. You would come across better if you would put aside your vulgarity and bigotry and speak as a mature citizen instead of trying to cause trouble and chaos.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Yup…
By GOB
July 17, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this
Did the blog die, or have we already finished off this topic?
By Whiley
July 17, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
I have a problem with man-boobs at the pool or the beach. The last thing I want to see during my picnic is THAT.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
Blog broken, or just dead?
By Morrigan
July 17, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
The choice of words (breastfeeding vs nursing, breast milk vs - what, ankle milk?) demonstrates that the controversy is not over healthy babies, it’s over breasts. It sounds as if some women are pretty gleeful about a “gotcha!” (I’ll do what I damn well please, to quote a shrill brat) and do something that they know upsets some others out of pure selfishness and a lot of anger. Parents just can’t do anything, anytime, anywhere. They have to make sacrifices for their kids. This is just another type of entitlement mentality.
By Habby
July 17, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
Oh my. Grow up and get over it.
Look if you want to look, we nursing mothers don’t care. If you think it’s indecent, don’t look, we nursing mothers don’t care.
Stop being children and grow up!
By ashley
July 17, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
And this is worth discussing?? Give me a break people. Just be glad you’re able to have the gift of having children.
By steve
July 17, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
singlemom- It’s the man’s fault that boobs have become sexual?? Why is it then that women look for bras to make them more attractive (push-up,etc…). Sounds like women have had something to do with it as well. Not to mention the women who decide to get augmentation when they feel their breasts are not attractive any more.
By Billy
July 17, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Why is this page nit updating?
By Billy
July 17, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Not updating, I should say..
By Nikita
July 17, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this
Singlemom, how ‘bout you do whatever you please at home? After all, your child is your first priority — but that doesn’t mean Vistoria’s Secret is required to accomodate your priority. If my first priority were getting high, should I be able to do that anywhere I pleased?
By Toad
July 17, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
Barbie,
How’s it done in Sweden?
By Bryan
July 17, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
hey usually use the “its natural” argument.
Well making that baby was “natural” too, but you didnt do that in public, so dont feed it in public. Going to the bathroom is “natrual” too. So when you really have to go you may as well just do that in front of everyone too. Ditto for picking your nose.
I think its an innate psychological desire for attention. Women are naturally attenting-needing beings. Much of post partem depression is the shift of attention from the mom to be to the baby, and breastfeeding in public is just another way to shift attention back to them.
By Anthony
July 17, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
It turns my stomach personally, go do it somewhere else.Lots of things are natural that doesn’t mean they should be done in public places because someone thinks because they have a child it elevates them.It doesnt, its a very basic function.Here is a way to stop it ,next time they are doing it stare lol.
By The72John
July 17, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
I think its an innate psychological desire for attention. Women are naturally attenting-needing beings. Much of post partem depression is the shift of attention from the mom to be to the baby, and breastfeeding in public is just another way to shift attention back to them.
wow…
By trish
July 17, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
OMG, some of you people are so ignorant. Why should I care about your embarassment or discomfort when I am doing what I need to do to feed my child? I’m not saying that women should “let it all hang out” but when I’m breastfeeding my child I dare somebody to say something to me. I promise you’ll never say anything else to another breastfeeding woman after I finish ripping you a new one for even looking like you want to say something.
By Zack
July 17, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
I hope my comments earlier will be read and taken to heart.
In the meantime, remember that not everything that comes from the CONSERVATIVE side is right, either….far from it. Many gravitate to the James Dobsons of the world, and he would be better off getting away from psychology and going to the Bible.
Actually, “better off” is an immeasurably-small understatement. I need to be careful with my wording.
By Mary
July 17, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
Seeing a mother breastfeeding in public doesn’t bother me at all but a screaming, hungry baby in public does. I think mothers should take care of their kids however they’re comfortable doing it. If somebody is “bothered” by that… oh, well. And in some segments of our society it’s just fine to whip it out and take a pee on the side of the road. It also seems to be fine in some European countries. But, in my opinion, that’s two entirely different things.
By Momma
July 17, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this
I have never seen a woman expose both breasts while breast feeding in private or in public. Having breast fed myself it really doesn’t make sense. That would certainly be indecent exposure if done in public! There are a lot of people ie this blog that have sexual issues and particularly hangups that have not been resolved and I feel a lot of anger about a topic that is “not very important” in some peoples eyes. Why people would need to express that they are “gay” is confusing. Kim…you really set if off and other people followed suit by condenming that self righteous “just buy a pump” person. Probably a stay at homer that had nothing else to do! But back to the topic…It doesn’t matter if a woman covers up and find that corner when people know that we are breastfeeding they still detest the act. Much like Lola they feel it should be done at home.
By Kaka15188
July 18, 2006 05:56 AM | Link to this
I can’t be bothered with anything these days, but such is life. I don’t care. So it goes. More or less nothing seems worth thinking about. I’ve just been hanging out waiting for something to happen, but that’s how it is.
By tom
July 18, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
I wonder if Diane would have instead written this if the issue was about someone being arrested for public urination. After all, it’s very much the same:
“A Home Depot shopper denied the right to urinate in public view is a glaring reminder how the intended use of a body part can be so misrepresented, being seen in its natural state is a public affront and a Freudian embarrassment for those who share an obsession so prevalent, urinating fathers must consider prurient female gazes while heeding the call of nature.
This is sick.”
Someone who chooses to breastfeed in public is certainly guilty of not following the Golden Rule (which, by the way, I don’t find to be a religious “rule” at all). Find a bathroom, go out to your car, or go to some other private place.
By ann
July 18, 2006 09:17 AM | Link to this
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS - Please go to a secluded place and breast feed your child. DISCRETION IS PROPER !!!!
By Billy
July 18, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this
Someone who chooses to breastfeed in public is certainly guilty of not following the Golden Rule (which, by the way, I don’t find to be a religious “rule” at all). Find a bathroom, go out to your car, or go to some other private place.
And here we have something from the fringe on the other side. Breastfeeding in public is fine. Women should just be a little discreet about it. Which mosst already are.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Yeah!!! Stop limiting my shopping and eating choices with your behavior. Stop assaulting me by feeding your baby!!!
Sorry, apparently I was channeling Joe L for a minute…
By Billy
July 18, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this
Yeah!!! Stop limiting my shopping and eating choices with your behavior. Stop assaulting me by feeding your baby!!!
Sorry, apparently I was channeling Joe L for a minute…
hehehehehe…
By The72John
July 18, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this
And here we have something from the fringe on the other side. Breastfeeding in public is fine. Women should just be a little discreet about it. Which mosst already are.
Yup, it’s called “Good manners”.
Why people would need to express that they are “gay” is confusing.
Yeah, keep those darn queers in the closet where they belong. Why should I have to see them hold hands on the street.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
As Billy says, most are discreet. This’s a dead horse. Let’s let it lie. How about discussing Henry Waxmans report about crisis pregnancy centers lying to people?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/17/AR2006071701145.html
“Federally funded “pregnancy resource centers” are incorrectly telling women that abortion results in an increased risk of breast cancer, infertility and deep psychological trauma, a minority congressional report charged yesterday.”
“The report said that 20 of 23 federally funded centers contacted by staff investigators requesting information about an unintended pregnancy were told false or misleading information about the potential risks of an abortion”
Using federal funding to outright LIE to those who they are supposed to inform and council…disgusting. But what does one expect, I suppose, from those who use psuedo-science to push ideological beliefs? Wouldn’t want women/girls in crisis to have access to factual material, since that’d mean they could make realistic and informed decisions….
By The72John
July 18, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this
Using federal funding to outright LIE to those who they are supposed to inform and council…disgusting. But what does one expect, I suppose, from those who use psuedo-science to push ideological beliefs? Wouldn’t want women/girls in crisis to have access to factual material, since that’d mean they could make realistic and informed decisions….
Welcome to the Bush vision of America…science is suddenly subjective and as open to “interpretation” as a Dostoyevsky novel. We’ve replaced scientific consensus with a system where a tiny group of scientists hired by a petroleum company claim that their work is equally valid as the rest of the world’s scientific community, or where religious loons masquerading as scientists fabricate entire theories out of whole cloth and present them as valid.
Yay, us!
By Billy
July 18, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this
Yeah, Mara, that’s pretty vomit-inducing…But also par for the course.
By Kyle
July 18, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this
some on here have said that you can’t compare breastfeeding in public to public urination. they’re reasoning for this is that breastfeeding is not illegal and public urination is illegal - but i don’t think this gets to the real issue in the comparison. if our state was to pass a law that outlawed public breastfeeding, would these same people say, “well, i guess its wrong to breastfeed in public b/c its illegal” - of course they wouldn’t. obviously the two are similar b/c in both cases private body parts are being exposed in public for their “natural” use, and i’m somewhat sure that at one point in history both were legal. but along the way, the lawmakers determined that it was indecent to expose ones private parts in public; therefore, they outlawed public urination (in all cities, and almost every populated area, at least). simply saying something is illegal isnt necessarily dispositive as to whether its right or wrong. you need to look to the reasoning behind the law and see if you agree with that reasoning. i’m not advocating breaking laws you don’t agree with, but it is good for our lawmaking system for people to debate the pros and cons of all our laws and make additions and changes where necessary. so, rather than simply discarding the comparison b/c one is legal and one isn’t, maybe the real question you should be asking yourself is whether the lawmakers were right to outlaw public urination in the first place (due to its exposure of private parts in public)- i say yes. just as if i have to pee really bad i can still be ticketed if i don’t find a proper restroom, i don’t think it is unreasonable to ask a nurisng mother to find a private place (be it your car, your restroom, etc…) before you nurse your child.
-maybe i’m reaching a little bit with this post, but this topic is so dull i’m just trying to find any argument i can
By Chris
July 18, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this
Wow… urinating in public is to leave your waste behind to stink, grow bacteria, whatever. Breastfeeding in public (or private) is to nurish a human being. Does anyone else see the difference?! Holy cow! :)
By The72John
July 18, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this
Wow… urinating in public is to leave your waste behind to stink, grow bacteria, whatever. Breastfeeding in public (or private) is to nurish a human being. Does anyone else see the difference?! Holy cow!
The comparison was made in response to someone’s assertion that they could breastfeed because “It’s my body, you can’t tell me what to do with it”.
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this
Yes, there is a public health issue involved with urinating anyplace. Cannot say the same for breast-feeding anyplace.
Anyone attempting to equate the two probably has human sexuality issues in general. But we cannnot all be(oh, never mind, it would not be nice…LOL)
By Billy
July 18, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
Yes, Chris, I see the difference. But if I’m in the woods behind my house and decide to pee, and at the same time a kid from a neighbor wander over onto my property and sees me, it’s possible that I will be forced to register as a sex offender. Meanwhile a woman can fully expose her breast while preparing to breastfeed, letting it linger out there for all to see, and anyone who feels the slightest bit awkward about it has a problem? No, I say be discreet. And not to the point of going to the bathroom or your car. Just to the point of making the minimal effort to cover yourself throughout the process…
By Billy
July 18, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
*The comparison was made in response to someone’s assertion that they could breastfeed because “It’s my body, you can’t tell me what to do with it”.
And let’s not pretend that urination is not a vital process.
What it comes down to is that most bodily functions should be handled in a discreet manner.
By Shannon
July 18, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this
It is classic left-logic. It is okay to take away the rights of many to satisfy a few. Breast feeding is a natural act but so is going to the toilet or trimming your fingernails. That doesn’t mean I want it done next to my table during dinner. C’mon. Use common sense. If you are going out and will be in public why not use a pump and make up a travel bottle? I don’t think it is too much to ask to be considerate of others.
By kimberly
July 18, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
72John… If you’re driving on the Autobahn in Germany, and you have take a whiz, you can pull over, get out, and take a whiz! Nobody (over there) gawks, stares, or says “EWWW!” (except the Americans) becaues it’s a normal, natural thing. Don’t try that on Ga 400!
By Mara
July 18, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Welcome to the Bush vision of America…
speaking of such, have any of you heard anything about John Dean’s new book “Conservatives Without Conscience”? Saw him on Jon Stewart the other night and just had to laugh. He said that, as a Goldwater Republican, he is now considered by many Republicans to be left of center…John Dean, Nixons go-to guy…who would have ever thought? Interesting interviews. Who would’ve ever guessed that Republicans would be attracted to lock-step authoritarianism!? LOL!
By The72John
July 18, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
72John… If you’re driving on the Autobahn in Germany, and you have take a whiz, you can pull over, get out, and take a whiz! Nobody (over there) gawks, stares, or says “EWWW!” (except the Americans) becaues it’s a normal, natural thing. Don’t try that on Ga 400!
The last time I was on the Autobahn, taking a whiz was the last thing on my mind. I was too busy cowering in terror as the native German driving the van was flying down the road at 100 or so miles an hour weaving in and out of traffic.
Come to think of it…a little pit stop might have been the best thing…
By Billy
July 18, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Anyone attempting to equate the two…
I wouldn’t try to equate the two, but they do fall on the same spectrum. They are both bodily functions. Passing gas isn’t (usually) a public health issue, yet I expect people to do it as discreetly as possible when in public. And that doesn’t even involve nudity of any sort.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this
It is classic left-logic. It is okay to take away the rights of many to satisfy a few.
And exactly what right of yours is taken away by someone breastfeeding in public?
By GOB
July 18, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
Welcome to the Bush vision of America…
My sister-in-law is a chemist for the EPA is DC and they absolutly despise the Bush administration. Their funding has been slashed and is being given to scientist who will say whatever the administration wants them to, whether it is true or not.
By Kaka72577
July 18, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
I’ve just been hanging out not getting anything done. What can I say? I’ve basically been doing nothing worth mentioning, but pfft. Not that it matters. Pretty much nothing exciting happening to speak of. I haven’t been up to much these days.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
If you are going out and will be in public why not use a pump and make up a travel bottle?
Because even if you take that step, you might still end up having to drop everything to feed your child. After you’ve already used that one bottle. And if you pump, that means you have to refrigerate the milk. Which means you have to reheat it before you feed the child.
Again, I think it’s unreasonable to tell women they should pump and prepare bottles before going out. There’s nothing wrong with breastfeeding in a public place. But there’s also nothing wrong with a little discretion.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
It is classic left-logic. It is okay to take away the rights of many to satisfy a few.
Seriously, how is this left or right? Why are there so many ignorant robots out there who have been brainwashed into believing that every topic figures into either liberal or conservative political ideologies?
Whether or not one should be discreet about breastfeeding has about as much to do with politics as the fact that my foot itches at the moment. It is possible to articulate different ideas about what is and is not acceptable public decorum without resorting to the crutch of calling everything you don’t like “liberal”.
And while we’re at it, exactly what rights of yours are being violated when someone breastfeeds? The “right” not to see something you find distasteful? The last time I checked, that wasn’t a “right” guaranteed by anything. We are all exposed to things we find personally distasteful on a daily basis. If you’re a normal human being, you ignore it and go on with your day. If you’re a controlling, self-righteous a*******hole, you rant and rave about it.
By David
July 18, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
Americans. We are so prudish that it’s scary. When I was a Christian I was in a Central American village preaching one on one with local villagers and had a lady openly breast feeding her baby while I witnessed to her. How embarrassing! Not the baby drinking milk, but me trying to witness. Ugh, religion. Americans are such prudes.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this
In response to Mara’s comment, this country has gotten so conservative that moderate Democrats today are similar to the Republicans of the 60’s and 70’s. The old-line Republicans didn’t try to get into everyone’s personal business like the current party. Nixon would be seen as a moderate today. Those fools who call Hillary a liberal are a joke.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
Is this Kaka fellow not our cartoon porn spammer? Is it not the same person that usually bombs the threads with stupid links?
By Toad
July 18, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this
Oh, yeah, old time Republicans didn’t try to be scientists. I’m surprised that Frist isn’t bowing down to Bush’s warped view of stem cell research. (That will probably be next week’s W to W topic.)
By Toad
July 18, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
The “right” not to see something you find distasteful? This reminds me of one time when my church door opened and a naked man stood there. When the minister objected, the naked man said “You all believe in freedom, don’t you?” (It’s an Existentialist Congregation) My thought was “yeah, the freedom to not see a naked man on Sunday morning.”
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
On the premise that the breast is a Sexual object, with all the full-body tingling mere stimulation can provoke, I once had a girlfriend who could orgasm from rubbing the backs of her knees. Should she have always worn pants? How about the guys into feet? Should women always wear full shoes with socks in order to not be seen by someone who might be stimulated by her, perhaps painted, toenails?
By Lyrazel
July 18, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
Tom, Billy, Lola, et al, you easily delegate women to hide themselves from public view if nursing, or they should feel shamed in public for feeding a child, right? Its ok to display boobs in a bikini but if a woman is breast feeding one should reprimand her for causing general public queasiness. Golden Rule as applied to who? You advocate public shaming of women! Isnt that what you are actually saying we should do to these radical boob slingers? You want her to go to her away or hide in a nasty bathroom and nurse—what if she is on an airplane? Your argument would say she let the child cry the entire flight because she ran out of pumped milk. Billy thinks she would spend too much time inconveniencing others if she used the loo since the loo is for all passengers. Ever been in a public restroom where you WANTED to linger 20-30 minutes?
What I see is how our society perpetuates myth-conceptions for women that we now accept as reality. This is a great example. In the earliest parts of the 20th century all (who could) women breast-fed. With WWII women were encouraged to use formula over natural breast milk so that they could be available to work in factories for the war effort. Encouraged, what am I saying! They were told to use it by our government and given product in much the same way the government handed out cigarettes to GIs as rations. This led to the end of breast feeding in America and oddly this use of breast as intended is now a radical concept. Doctors have proven breast feeding a child is better for the physical and emotional development child than bottle feeding, it is better for the health of the mother too. But dont let that cloud your judgement of them radical boob-slinging nursing mothers. You sensitive people should get a grip on what is a natural way of feeding a child!!
Victoria Secret does not carry nursing bras. It is a store specifically designed for men to feel comfortable in buying lingerie for their women. It has a very limited range of sizes of bras carried.
By tom
July 18, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this
And exactly what right of yours is taken away by someone:
urinating, or defacating, or playing loud music, or running naked
in public?
By Toad
July 18, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this
Oooh, I thought I was the only one who eroticized the backs of women’s knees!
By Billy
July 18, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, why are you coming after me? What did I say? That women should make the minimal effort of throwing a blanket over their otherwise exposed breasts? I didn’t realize that was such a bad thing.
You raise the airplane argument, and then you answer for myself and others in the same breath? If you had read my other posts you’d see that I would not think she should use the airplane restroom. I would expect her to be discreet about it while feeding the child. Again, a blanket is not too much to ask. In fact, the flight attendant would probably be perfectly happy to bring her one.
A public restroom I’d want to linger in for 20-30 minutes? No, nor is there one in which I’d want to take a meal. Which is why, for the hundreth time in two days, I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public, provided they do it discreetly. And the “linger for 20-30 minutes” argument is exactly why Victoria’s Secret was right to ask the woman to leave. She was tying up the dressing room.
Victoria Secret does not carry nursing bras. It is a store specifically designed for men to feel comfortable in buying lingerie for their women. It has a very limited range of sizes of bras carried.
What are you saying? That the woman was in there for the express purpose of feeding her child? That she was looking for a product they didn’t carry, and then decided to tie up their changing area for half an hour?
By tom
July 18, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel,
You do not know me, so don’t tell me who I choose to denigrate and who I do not. I have not one time told you what I prefer to see on the beach or in a Mall window.
My point is that just because something is “natural” does not make it socially acceptable. Should someone be locked up for breastfeeding in public? Not with today’s laws (and I do not condone changing said laws). It is a matter of decency. I should not have to look at a woman’s teet any more than she should have to look at my genitalia, regardless of the fact that she has a hungry baby at her side.
If you choose to breastfeed your child, fine. If you choose to do it in someone’s face, don’t be surprised if people gawk and accuse you of not being sensitive to their values and of being indecent. Be considerate and take the extra steps to do it in private.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this
And exactly what right of yours is taken away by someone:
urinating, or defacating
Affects the public health
or playing loud music
Is unavoidably intrusive
or running naked
Are you kidding? It’s always the ugly people who decide to go streaking.
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this
Are you kidding? It’s always the ugly people who decide to go streaking.
especially the ones who put a bag with eyeholes over their head, in order to streak anonymously. dang…
By Shannon
July 18, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
It is one of the first things the AJC writes at the top of the page, “left-leaning columnist vs right-leaning columnist”. I didn’t inject it into the debate. And what right am I talking about? The right to common public decency. I would want a woman or man urinating next to me out in the open just as I wouldn’t want a woman breast feeding right next to me on a plane. Don’t pretend all of the sudden that breasts aren’t “private parts” and are only objectified as sexual by men. Let a woman have her boss make an unwanted comment about her breasts and see how fast it becomes SEXUAL harassment. You can’t have it both ways people.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
I give up. I tried to introduce a couple of new topics but this one seems to have more lives than a Wile E Coyote.
I’ll check back later…
By Billy
July 18, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
Shannon, I would much prefer a woman breastfeed right next to me on a plane than a man pee right next to me in a comparable situation.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
I have a problem with man-boobs at the pool or the beach. The last thing I want to see during my picnic is THAT. I’m right there with you Whiley!! A nice set of pecs is one thing, but man boobs is quite another because men weren’t intended to have boobs.
Stupid topic. If YOU feel uncomfortable because you see a woman breast feeding then the problem is YOURS to deal with and not through making the woman feel uncomfortable. As a society we have HUGE issues with sex and sexuality and are extremely repressed.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
Mara, nothing trumps the subject of breasts in our society.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
How about a woman wearing a revealing neckline sitting next to you a an airplane? What if she’s showing most of her breast except the nipple?
By Jack
July 18, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
I’m just glad that ladies don’t have hairy chests.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this
And what right am I talking about? The right to common public decency
Public decency is subjective. There was a time when it was considered indecent for a black man to walk down the street with a white woman. You don’t have the “right” to determine what does and does not constitute decent based strictly on your own likes, dislikes or personal hangups.
Don’t pretend all of the sudden that breasts aren’t “private parts” and are only objectified as sexual by men. Let a woman have her boss make an unwanted comment about her breasts and see how fast it becomes SEXUAL harassment. You can’t have it both ways people.
Actually, you can. Things aren’t always - in fact they are rarely - black and white, and intelligent, discerning people can draw distinctions in various situations.
There is an OBVIOUS difference in intent between a woman who is barely revealing the skin of her chest so that she can breastfeed her child, and an authority-figure making an intrusive sexual comment about a female underling’s chest.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this
Hey Toad, I heard about the naked man (some friends go to Ex Church and I go once in a while) but didn’t know until now that it was true and not just a local “urban myth.”
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this
How about a woman wearing a revealing neckline sitting next to you a an airplane? What if she’s showing most of her breast except the nipple?
those outfits are worn to generate scowls if you notice, so just be discreet.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
this is just a hypothesis tossed out there for comments -
perhaps the discomfort many people experience regarding public lactation is due to the nature of motherhood itself. As a society we have elevated motherhood to a quasi-saintly realm, an almost Madonna-like virtue. When women breastfeed in public, allowing us to actually view the mammilian apparati and their function, it reminds us that in order to have this “madonna”, first she must have…you know…done that! A filthy ho doin’ the nasty dirty thing. It jars our view of the “sanctity” of motherhood…
just an idea
By The72John
July 18, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
perhaps the discomfort many people experience regarding public lactation is due to the nature of motherhood itself. As a society we have elevated motherhood to a quasi-saintly realm, an almost Madonna-like virtue. When women breastfeed in public, allowing us to actually view the mammilian apparati and their function, it reminds us that in order to have this “madonna”, first she must have…you know…done that! A filthy ho doin’ the nasty dirty thing. It jars our view of the “sanctity” of motherhood…
ooo, OOO! Or…or maybe…the image of the naked-breasted mother feeding her child invokes archetypal images from our shared Jungian race memory, images of “Earth Mother” similar to pre-columbian iconography, with wide hips and large breasts.
This conflicts with the conservative, Puritanical brand of Christianity that is so prevalent in the US, because it requires us to accept that at one point humans were wholey what would now be considered Pagan. This is unacceptable to modern-day fundamentalists who refuse to acknowledge that mankind’s understanding of religion evolved along with our culture, rather than springing into existence from the head of Zeu…er…God.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this
lyrazel, you are so right at 10:49. And Momma made some excellent points. This is what I expected to see as a result of this question: the discomfort in this “artificial” culture we live in about motherhood and the natural function of women. We’re all used to seeing boobs hanging out, but it needs to be kept in it’s place. We all need to understand it’s a sexual thing, not a feeding baby thing! Women should hide if they’re nursing a child, but hooooooeeee, them low cut tops in public are fine and dandy! Women ARE discreet when breast feeding - what a stupid question! As Momma said, “It doesn’t matter if a woman covers up and find that corner when people know that we are breastfeeding they still detest the act.” We are like the people in Plato’s cave: living our lives in a totally unnatural world and not even realizing it. We don’t see birth, we don’t see death and we don’t want to see a woman nursing her baby! We don’t know anything about the problems she has to deal with and we don’t care either! Until you’ve been a mother and nursed a baby you know nothing about the demands and problems that entails. So why are people who have never and will never have to handle the problem, so ready to give mothers advice about how and where and when and under what conditions they should and should not nurse their babies? I think women handle it just fine and don’t need all the advice. Nursing mothers are doing the best thing they can possibly do for the health of their child. They should be getting praise for that instead of this sh-t!
By lozen
July 18, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
Jack, you might be surprised how many “ladies” have hairy chests and spead hundreds on electrolysis!
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
Mara - like the woman having a kid in tow doesn’t already indicate she is no longer a virgin and at least did it once?. LOL. Doesn’t mean it was good, but. Like the people who indicate they must have a great sex life, after all, they have 12 kids. No, that just means they may have only had lousy sex once a year.
good hypotheses actually. I never got it, discomfort over breast-feeding, as my first post indicates.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this
springing into existence from the head of Zeu…er…God.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
lozen - We don’t know anything about the problems she has to deal with and we don’t care either!
Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
Can’t women ever do anything right? Don’t they even have enough sense to nurse their kids right? Why must we tell them what they need to do about everything from how they look to how they nurse a baby? Mara and 72John, yay! for coming up with some ideas about why someone would be so uncomfortable about seeing a mother do a totally natural, human thing and nurse her baby! What kinds of things earn women praise? Being pretty! Being sexy! Being nice! Can we name some other things that women are praised for?
By Brian Curtis
July 18, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
I praise women who choose not to have kids and become productive members of society in some other way.
We’re really not running low on spare people—especially resource-hogging Americans.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
Chilao - in my first post on this topic I admitted that I did feel uncomfortable about it. Nor could I articulate why. I still can’t put my finger on the why of it, but that was one thought I had. As for the mere presence of children around her indicating she isn’t a virgin…(theoretically she could have been divinely impregnated) the kids could be adopted, or steps, or IVF’s….but publicly putting the child to teat just screams “I have had SEX.” I would think it’d be tough to ignore, this unrepentant bragging of sexual activity.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
They should be getting praise for that instead of this sh-t!
Come on. Apart from a few loons who say it should be done exclusively at home the majority of us feel there is nothing wrong with doing it in public. Some of us feel that being discreet is not too much to ask. Those of us that feel that way are not complaining that women aren’t discreet; on the contrary, we’d be pretty hard pressed to think of more than a couple of times in which women were not discreet and I think we’d pretty much all admit as much. There is no reason to snap at us for answering the question posed.
I mean, if the topic was, “Should murder be illegal?” and we were to answer, “Yes,” that would not mean that we thought murder was not already against the law.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
This is sort of an offshoot of what Mara mentioned earlier, but I think part of the discomfort that men get when seeing a woman breastfeeding is caused by the harsh realization that the woman is more than a sexual object. Men have become so accustomed to seeing anything involving the breast as sexual (“Hey Peter, man, check out channel 9, it’s the breast exams. “) that anytime they are forced to see it in another light, it creates a mental block.
I think it completly humanizes the person, especially if it is a stranger, and so many men are used to, and in reality, want nothing more than to look at any woman they pace as a sexual image. I could be completly off-base, but it is at least worth throwing out there.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this
Can we name some other things that women are praised for?
Being good in bed?
Seriously, I’m not about to suggest that things are equal for the sexes. At the same time, I don’t want to see this degenerate into the “clothing affecting sexual assault” brouhaha of a few weeks ago. It’s a little frustrating dealing with these absolutist, black-and-white positions every day.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Hey Peter, man, check out channel 9, it’s the breast exams
Is there anything that one can’t relate to Office Space? I just love that movie.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
Is there anything that one can’t relate to Office Space? I just love that movie.
Yeah, I figured either you or Billy would get that one right away. I have 8 more days in cubicle hell, then I am out.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
This is sort of an offshoot of what Mara mentioned earlier, but I think part of the discomfort that men get when seeing a woman breastfeeding is caused by the harsh realization that the woman is more than a sexual object. Men have become so accustomed to seeing anything involving the breast as sexual (“Hey Peter, man, check out channel 9, it’s the breast exams. “) that anytime they are forced to see it in another light, it creates a mental block.
That’s not the case for me. Any discomfort I feel is that due to the fact that the breast is a sexual part, I have a desire to look at it. If I look at it while the child’s latched on, I’m not being a creep, I’m being a man. My problem is that I don’t know how the nursing mother will react if my eyes slip down, and I don’t want to make her feel awkward by completely turning my head.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Yeah, I figured either you or Billy would get that one right away. I have 8 more days in cubicle hell, then I am out.
Back up in your a*s, with the resurrection…
By Kaka51176
July 18, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
Basically nothing noteworthy happening right now, but eh. Today was a complete loss. I haven’t been up to much recently. I’ve pretty much been doing nothing worth mentioning.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
Not again…Is this what happened yesterday? With the board not updating amd making it appear like it had been abandoned? Or has it actually been abandoned?
By Chris
July 18, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Yes, I do believe women should be discreet when breastfeeding. I am a mother who is currently (not as we speak) ;) nursing my third child. The times I’ve had to nurse in public are less than 10 with all children combined and I did it as discreetly as possible. I am not comfortable with it, but sometimes it is necessary. I think it is great that some women are very comfortable with it. As for the comment: If I look at it while the child’s latched on, I’m not being a creep, I’m being a man. My problem is that I don’t know how the nursing mother will react if my eyes slip down, and I don’t want to make her feel awkward by completely turning my head. As someone who feels awkward enough as it is nursing in public, if someone were to catch my eye and notice that I’m nursing my child, I would hope they would give me a kind acknowledgement of what they’ve seen (a smile, perhaps, maybe a tip of the head) to let me know, I don’t know, not that it’s okay, but that it’s okay. Hmm, that sounds stupid, but it’s the best I can do. :) I don’t expect people to not notice that I have a child attached to my breast. :)
By Kaka56458
July 18, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
I haven’t gotten anything done recently. I’ve just been hanging out doing nothing. I haven’t been up to anything these days, but it’s not important. Today was a total loss.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
Ok, what’s up with the meaningless spam?
By Billy
July 18, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
I don’t expect people to not notice that I have a child attached to my breast.
Thanks you. That is my point. Everyone else is supposed to just go about his or her business like it’s not happening, but the less discreet you are about it the more attention you’re going to draw.
I remember two instances in the past two years involving breastfeeding. One was with a visiting friend of my wife. She asked if I would mind if she nursed. I said, “No, of course not.” Then she pulled her shirt up and I saw her entire breast before she put her child up to it. No attempt to not expose herself, just pooftitty. Again, I didn’t really care, and my wife was bothered more than I was, but when she asked “Do you mind…?” my thoughts were on “…if I nurse my child under this blanket right here,” not “…if I completely expose my boob.”
The other was at a gathering at a cousin’s house. A bunch of her friends were there. Well, my son was hungry, so I fixed his bottle. (We started weaning when his first tooth came in at 3 1/2 mos.) I got his bib, then handed him to my wife. Once he was all set in her arms, I turned around. The three thirty-something women with babies, who had just been sitting there talking, were now all breastfeeding their kids. No blankets, no warning. I just turned around to see side-boob. Three instances at once.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Never mind, answered my own question. Appears to be a bot-spammer that aliases various commercial web site links to the posting ID. But, since e-mail/html links are disabled in the headers of the blogs, we don’t get to look at XXX GIRLS or FREE VIAGRA…just the boring, repetitive tag lines.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
Kaka, are you troubled?
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
Ok, what’s up with the meaningless spam?
it is kaka. with serial numbers.
Mara - I know not every woman walking/strolling with a kid at the mall is the mother, in the same way a guy(me) is not the father of the young girl(a niece) at the mall. However, in MOST cases, especially with unruly youngsters, it IS the mother. LOL And some breast-feed for, well, longer than Billy’s 3.5 months weaning, let’s put it that way.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
That spam has been assaulting us all day. I feel like it is limiting which blogs I can go to…Why should that spam’s rights supercede mine??? Why????
By Beth
July 18, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
I can understand why people might be a little uncomfortable with public nursing, since breastfeeding was all but forgotten in our culture for a few generations, but this is really a non-issue for the vast majority of breastfeeding mothers. Women generally WANT to be discreet while nursing. What troubles me is the people who equate nursing with urination/defecation/sexual intercourse. Yes, they are all natural acts to be sure, but an infant EATS at the breast just like you or I eat at the table. There’s nothing unsanitary or disruptive about nursing a baby discreetly in public - urinating, defecating, and lewd behavior on the other hand…
Babies should not have to eat in the restroom. Nor should mothers feel compelled to pump breast milk and bottle-feed their breastfed babies if they don’t want to. Nursing mothers should cover up, and others should avoid staring. Duh. This whole controversy just shows how uptight and immature our over-sexed society can be. The ads displayed in the front windows at Victoria’s Secret can reveal all sorts of cleavage, but a woman breastfeeding at the food court in the same mall somehow offends people even if she is being discreet. We are really screwed up.
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
Yeah, alot of spam emails start with what appear to be personal mail, then go into the spam. For the spam filters that check the first few lines of mail content, it seems. (“oops, looks like good personal email”)
kaka troubled? serialed. hahahahahaha
By Toad
July 18, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
Billy, sounds like some female bonding going on at the cousin’s. Time for guys to politely exit to another part of the house, if the gathering was not all in one room.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Brian, your 1:00 …. we give men in the service medals when they do a good job killing, but call women who have abortions murderers and threaten to take away their legal right to choose. In light of over-population, why don’t women who have abortions get medals for helping society by making the decision not to continue every single pregnancy to term?
By The72John
July 18, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
Yeah, alot of spam emails start with what appear to be personal mail, then go into the spam. For the spam filters that check the first few lines of mail content, it seems. (“oops, looks like good personal email”)
This one catch-phrase turns up on blogs all across the board. I googled it :-)
By Billy
July 18, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
I agree that people need to get past their breastfeeding hangups. I just think they’ll be more likely to do so if nursing mothers are discreet about it.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Perhaps Kaka is so down because Brazil lost in the World Cup and his club teamjust got hit pretty hard by a scandal…
Hey, let’s hear it for a bad joke that one person on the blog might get…
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
We don’t see birth, we don’t see death and we don’t want to see a woman nursing her baby! Lozen..very interesting point. As our society has advanced technologically and scientifically we’ve become somewhat santized from life itself. I’m not advocating the return to the days of being birthed on the kitchen table at home like my great-grandmother or laying out dead family members in our living rooms, but somewhere along the way we’ve managed to remove these two critical events from daily life.
People are no longer comfortable with death. I think it’s completely cool that there is a festival in Oakwood Cemetary. In days past, cemetaries were some of the few areas within cities where there was open space and families would picnic there while children played. Today we’ve frequently replaced funerals and attending an actual burial with memorial services that only have a photo of the deceased.
When it comes to birth and babies we’re sanitizing those too. Granted maybe less so with birth since people do video tape them, but look at all the stuff and the testing and the warning and whatnot about new borns. You’d think each child was about to be the last human born as we stave off extinction.
I think someone was on to a good thought about not being able to sexualize a breast so easily when seen being used to nourish and sustain life. Seeing a woman breast feed is one of the most beautiful sights in the world. There is a bond of protectiveness, loving, and a contentedness of the child to which we are rarely exposed today.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Hey, let’s hear it for a bad joke that one person on the blog might get…
LOL
But I think they’re overreacting by demoting the clubs. They should be punishing the people actually responsible for the ref-fixing.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Babies should not have to eat in the restroom Beth…tiara point to you for some da mn good comments! How many adults would tolerate having to eat their meal in the bathroom? Also good observation about how women were steered away from breast feeding during the 70’s.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
But I think they’re overreacting by demoting the clubs. They should be punishing the people actually responsible for the ref-fixing.
From what I have read, I think they should be demoted. The players didnt have anything to do with it, but the clubs were cheating, so the club has to be penalized. It is very much like the NCAA putting a school on probation for something that was done 3 or 4 years ago. It isnt a perfect solution, but they had to do something. It sucks for the fans of the teams that are demoted, but is great for the fans of the Seria B teams. How often does Juve come to town for those teams?
By lozen
July 18, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
I didn’t realize if a new mother is visiting a friend or family member she has to ask permission from the men in the family to nurse her baby. That just goes to show how women feel about doing the most normal thing in the world, doesn’t it? Her other option was to leave the room and the visit and the conversation. We should make sure new mothers have an even harder time visiting friends, having conversations, eating, sleeping, relaxing. OOOOO, how disgusting! This is probably why more and more women do not nurse, therefore having a negative impact on their baby’s health and immune system. And that explains some radical La Leche revolutionaries insisting that women should do it in our face!
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
I think they’re overreacting by demoting the clubs Why is it that in most sports scandals involving the officials it’s the players who get screwed?
By Billy
July 18, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
Billy, sounds like some female bonding going on at the cousin’s. Time for guys to politely exit to another part of the house, if the gathering was not all in one room.
Well, it was is the den/great room/common room of their house, the same place the entire party was being held. I just turned back around, trying not to look obvious, and got up and went to the other side of the room…
By GOB
July 18, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
Why is it that in most sports scandals involving the officials it’s the players who get screwed?
In this case, the players will be fine. In fact, most of the top ones (which at Juve, is pretty much all of them) will be bought by Real Madrid, Chelsea or Man U. and get even more money and exposure than they already were.
It does suck for the college kids who get caught up in the scandals though. They should at least let them transfer after the sanctions are announced without having to sit for a year.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
I didn’t realize if a new mother is visiting a friend or family member she has to ask permission from the men in the family to nurse her baby. That just goes to show how women feel about doing the most normal thing in the world, doesn’t it?
I think the issue is more about being polite. Eating is the most natural thing in the world for an adult too, but when you are visting friends, you usually ask before raiding their pantry.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
I didn’t realize if a new mother is visiting a friend or family member she has to ask permission from the men in the family to nurse her baby.
You don’t think it’s common courtesy when in someone else’s home to make sure they don’t mind if you disrobe, even partially? My mother raised me a bit differently. Sounds like you’re advocating “in your face” behavior. Whatever happened to manners, the purpose of which are to make those around you feel as comfortable as possible?
GOB - I got the impression from what I’ve read that the players will just transfer to other clubs…maybe I misinterpreted, but…if you played for Juventus would you stick around if the team suddenly became the minor leagues?
By The72John
July 18, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
GOB - I got the impression from what I’ve read that the players will just transfer to other clubs…maybe I misinterpreted, but…if you played for Juventus would you stick around if the team suddenly became the minor leagues?
I neglected to make my point - that Juventus wouldn’t really be Juventus without its top talent, so it won’t REALLY be like the Serie B teams are playing them.
By GOB
July 18, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
John - Yeah, the bulk of the players will just move to other teams, but the money that Juventus will get for them will allow them to rebuild in a few years. Even without their top stars, Juve coming to town in a huge deal for a team in middle to bottom half of Serie B, especially if you have a chance to beat them.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
Adjunct topic that just popped into my blond head…why do we qualify the type of milk unless it’s from a cow? The word milk pretty much means it came from a cow, but we also know that milk comes from the human breast, goats, camels, yaks…actually every female mammal. Do we use milk to mean ‘from a cow’ because we’re not used to being able to purchase milk that comes from other mammals? The same thought goes for cheese. It’s always specifically stated when it is goat cheese or sheep’s milk cheese.
Why do we allow children to watch baby animals nurse at their mother’s teats, but we get freaked out when it’s a human baby at a human breast?
By GOB
July 18, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this
I neglected to make my point - that Juventus wouldn’t really be Juventus without its top talent, so it won’t REALLY be like the Serie B teams are playing them.
Yeah, but it would still be a huge deal for the opposition. Imagine if you were rookie playing for the Orioles in the 80s. Even though the Yankees were terrible, it is still a huge deal to be playing against them at Yankee Stadium. The history of the club is still there, regardless of who is actually wearing the shirt.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
Netbanker, yes birthing went taboo once it became a medical procedure and midwives were eliminated by the medical profession, but things have changed. Midwives are back and people who aren’t even family members gather to watch the water birth and video tape it! When my son was born (in a little GA town in the 60’s) no one was allowed in the labor room. I was barely 19 and I spent 15 hours there alone, scared to death, and nobody I knew could even come in the room with me. Then they gave me a drug commonly known as twilight sleep before the actual birth. The drug doesn’t help with pain; it makes one forget what happened. I feel cheated because I have no memory at all of his birth. Things have changed for the better. But at least nobody made me feel ashamed of nursing my baby! Death is still largely taboo although there is a small movement about burying our own dead instead of turning them over to the mortuary so they can plasticize them. How do they do that? My 95 year old father didn’t have one wrinkle left when they were finished with him. He looked 35 and not like himself at all. The salesman at the mortuary did everything in his power to make us feel cheap when we asked for the least expensive thing they had (which is what my father wanted). He said, “Oh, well we might have a cheaper one out in the barn!” They are masters at their job which is to manipulate grieving people into spending thousands of dollars! My father saw no reason to take $5,000 from my mother to pay for a box to go into the ground.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
I think someone was on to a good thought about not being able to sexualize a breast so easily when seen being used to nourish and sustain life. Seeing a woman breast feed is one of the most beautiful sights in the world. There is a bond of protectiveness, loving, and a contentedness of the child to which we are rarely exposed today.
A gay man talking about the sexualixation of the breast… ;-)
I didn’t realize if a new mother is visiting a friend or family member she has to ask permission from the men in the family to nurse her baby. That just goes to show how women feel about doing the most normal thing in the world, doesn’t it? Her other option was to leave the room and the visit and the conversation. We should make sure new mothers have an even harder time visiting friends, having conversations, eating, sleeping, relaxing. OOOOO, how disgusting! This is probably why more and more women do not nurse, therefore having a negative impact on their baby’s health and immune system. And that explains some radical La Leche revolutionaries insisting that women should do it in our face!
She doesn’t have to ask permission to feed her child. And I would argue that in our day-to-day lives there are things that, like it or not, are more normal than breastfeeding. The ironic thing is that she should have asked my wife if she wanted to OK it with the person who is most uncomfortable ess he, like you, automatically assumes that it’s men who have a problem with it, because of course all women see it as a beautiful thing to be shared with everyone in existence. Please.
For the record, that was the third time I’d met the woman in my life. Some people aren’t that comfortable with that sort intimacy. Including me, Mr. Never-even-been-to-a-strip-club guy. And your Leche activists seem to believe that breastfeeding is the end-all and be-all of motherhood. Well, it takes a lot more than nursing to be a good mother, and it takes a lto more than using formula to be a bad one.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
A gay man talking about the sexualixation of the breast… ;-)
Yeah, what a homo. You won’t catch ME talking about women’s breasts in those terms.
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
I heard a good thing on NPR this morning, it was part of a segment on one-room schoolhouses, this a quote from a teacher in a three-pupil school in western Nebraska, ranching country:
Being a good mother means raising your child so that he/she can go out into the world and not need you.
which is what she was attempting to do as a one-room-schoolhouse teacher.
By Mara
July 18, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this
One must wonder if, in the “good ol’ days” when women weren’t “made to feel ashamed” of breast feeding their children, (you know…Victorian times) if it really was okay to just pop out a boob in the Russian Tea Room or are we just romantacizing something that was usually handled in a private and circumspect way. Considering that this was the era of “children should be seen, not heard (and that as little as possible)” I really doubt that public breastfeeding was as prevalent, or a “acceptable”, as lozen seems to say it was.
oh well. Maybe we’ll be over this tomorrow. Air kisses to all y’all :^)
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
It’s always specifically stated when it is goat cheese or sheep’s milk cheese. biggest factor there in the differentiation, is those three cheeses(including cow’s milk as the third) distinctly TASTE very different.
not to discount what you are trying to say, but if buying cheese, I would want to know beforehand. LOL
By The72John
July 18, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this
One must wonder if, in the “good ol’ days” when women weren’t “made to feel ashamed” of breast feeding their children, (you know…Victorian times) if it really was okay to just pop out a boob in the Russian Tea Room or are we just romantacizing something that was usually handled in a private and circumspect way. Considering that this was the era of “children should be seen, not heard (and that as little as possible)” I really doubt that public breastfeeding was as prevalent, or a “acceptable”, as lozen seems to say it was.
I’m guessing no…I mean…breastfeeding and corsets don’t really seem to go together.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
I bet you’re right, NetB. If you were to go to an African tribe that gets most of its sustenance from goats, “milk” probably wouldn’t bring cows to mind. I’m guessing cows are more effecient milk producers or else we wouldn’t use them as our primary milk source. Or maybe we just like the taste better. Though I’ve never tasted goat/sheep/horse milk. Breast milke is pretty good, though…
By Kaka3833
July 18, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
I’ve just been hanging out not getting anything done. What can I say? I’ve basically been doing nothing worth mentioning, but pfft. Not that it matters. Pretty much nothing exciting happening to speak of. I haven’t been up to much these days.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
sexualixation is that a combination of sexualize and fixation?
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
A gay man talking about the sexualixation of the breast… ;-) Kind of strange isn’t it? Then again I’ve been to a strip club too (yes, it was the kind with naked women)
Lozen…I’m not quite sure how they do that to the bodies, but I know what you mean. The most shocking experience for me came when I was in my mid-20’s and heavily involved in volunteering for an HIV support organization. I participated in a Buddy Program that required regular attendance at a support group for the buddies to be able to vent, share their experiences, etc. My group had an agreement that when someone’s buddy died we would all go the viewing together. I had met the woman who died on a number of occassions at various gatherings so I knew what she looked like. As I’m standing at the casket with 2 other people from the group I was wondering if we hadn’t accidently gone to the wrong room. Even the woman’s buddy quietly said “Who IS that in the casket?” as we walked back to the hallway to check the name on the door.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
I really doubt that public breastfeeding was as prevalent, or a “acceptable”, as lozen seems to say it was.
I agree. And think class was a factor. Have we forgotten about wet nurses the upper classes would enlist to breastfeed their children? I’m thinking that the more “upper” class one was (or one considered one’s self) the less “proper” it was to be seen breastfeeding. That’s partly why my mother-in-law didn’t nurse any of her kids, even though she was in her teens and 20s during the 1960s — she was a southerner, and the South was long mired in this Victorian school of thought.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
sexualixation is that a combination of sexualize and fixation?
Hmm…it can be!
By lozen
July 18, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
72John, I guess it’s still a little hard for me to really get my mind around grown ups feeling embarrassed when a mother has to nurse her infant.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
One must wonder if, in the “good ol’ days” when women weren’t “made to feel ashamed” of breast feeding their children, (you know…Victorian times) if it really was okay to just pop out a boob in the Russian Tea Room or are we just romantacizing something that was usually handled in a private and circumspect way. I’m not old enough to know for certain, but I’d also guess no…besides a woman who went to the Russian Tea Room would have been wealthy enough to have a nanny care for the child and maybe even a wet nurse. My point being that one just didn’t take children with them everywhere as is done today. I think the point here really is one that Beth already made about up until the late 60’s breast feeding was pretty much how babies were fed in this country. Somewhere around there scientists and doctors were suddenly recommending the use of formula…which makes me think that my motto would indicate why that happened… “Follow the money” to the formula manufacturers who wanted sales.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this
72John, I guess it’s still a little hard for me to really get my mind around grown ups feeling embarrassed when a mother has to nurse her infant.
I don’t see why people have a problem with it either. But I do think that taking an in-your-face approach to it doesn’t help matters.
By Toad
July 18, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
I doubt my great great grandmothers down on the farm were wearing corsets or even went out in public. Again, it comes down to class.
By The72John
July 18, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
I doubt my great great grandmothers down on the farm were wearing corsets or even went out in public. Again, it comes down to class.
If they were down on the farm, then I doubt breast-feeding in public would have been an issue.
By Nikita
July 18, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this
This isn’t a matter of denying women the ability to nurse their children. It’s about women who choose to have children and should know that children bring some constraints with them. One of which is that people aren’t going to be pleased if you’re going disrobing wherever you feel like it, whenever you feel like it, and demanding accommodation by the portion of the population that shares no part of your responsibility.
Ways to avoid this include pumping milk beforehand and carrying a bottle, not scheduling shopping for feeding time, and choosing to breastfeed in the manner that is most discreet.
I am a woman and most of my friends have recently had children. And it squicks me out big time when we’re all hanging out and suddenly everyone is flashing me with their breasts. Especially at dinner. Go feed the baby. It’s ok — I’ll wait. Particularly since I can’t actually eat while you breastfeed.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
*sexualixation is that a combination of sexualize and fixation?
Hmm…it can be!*
It also sounds like part of a diagnosis for sexual addiction.
she was a southerner, and the South was long mired in this Victorian school of thought I don’t know if it’s Victorian so much as Southern because here in the South we care very much about appearances. Secrets are a way of life and things must be kept quiet because “What will people think?” Even physical appearance seem very important here as compared to other parts of the country. On our trip my partner asked me I noticed that in comparison to the South the people in the North seemed less kempt or put together. The week prior to our vacation a couple of fashionistas with whom I work in L.A. were here and commented to me that Atlantans seem very well dressed and groomed in general as compared to LA.
By Billy
July 18, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
I think it’s worth noting that today’s baby formulas are more like breast milk than anything before. Not breastfeeding, whatever your reasons, is no reason to feel guilty. La Leche and other Nipple Nazis try to lay on the guilt trips if a mother doesn’t want to breastfeed. There are far worse things you can do to your child than give him formula.
By Big Dark Willy
July 18, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
Show me the titties!!!
By Chilao
July 18, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
If they were down on the farm, then I doubt breast-feeding in public would have been an issue.
good point, heck, they could be nursing while milking. or picking crops, etc.
By lozen
July 18, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
In the 60’s in the south, when I had infants all the women I knew nursed their babies and we weren’t shy about it around the men in the family. We certainly didn’t flaunt it. We didn’t whip out both breasts (or even one) while we nursed but we didn’t always cover up with a blanket either when it was 95 degrees. We wore button-up blouses and nursing bras. My mother and her sister nursed their babies in the 40’s, and 50’s. My mother-in-law nursed 8, two of whom were twins. (We weren’t “uppah clahss” I suppose.) The poor have always nursed their infants and still do. One of their family stories was about the one son who nursed until he was old enough to be ashamed about it. He would hide behind the door and motion for his mother to come to nurse him. She believed a woman wouldn’t get pregnant as long as she was nursing so she nursed them as long as she could! I think wet nurses were used when the mother was unable to nurse her child for some reason. During the Victorian period, women probably hid somewhere to nurse their infants. In a culture that covered the legs of chairs so men wouldn’t get excited about legs, I’m sure it was hidden away just as pregnant women were hidden away in the house.
By Netbanker
July 18, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this
Chilao…I agree that I want to know from what animal the milk came for the cheese due to the major difference in taste.
Oh geez…I took some Tylenol sinus stuff today which always gives me that disconnected medicine head feeling…which also unleashes my stream of consciousness brain like nobody’s business so here we go…I know that in Asia (Nepal specifically) they drink yak milk. Do they also make cheese from yak milk? If so, anyone know of anyone who imports it? Or what about camels? Is there cheese made from camel milk? I happen to like cheese, including goat’s milk cheese, so I’d be very curious to try cheese made from the milk of other animals….within reason of course because something like cat’s milk cheese just seems too weird…let alone the number of cats one would need to harvest enough milk to make cheese. OK…that just brought up the image of Ben Stiller from one of the ‘Focker’ movies.
By Kaka99799
July 18, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this
I haven’t gotten anything done today. I feel like a fog, but what can I say? I’ve just been letting everything wash over me lately, not that it matters. Shrug.
By TramadoL53206
July 19, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this
My life’s been pretty dull recently. Shrug. My mind is like a void. I haven’t gotten anything done lately. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By Kaka44413
July 19, 2006 12:29 AM | Link to this
I just don’t have anything to say right now. I haven’t been up to anything recently, but it’s not important. I’ve just been sitting around waiting for something to happen, but shrug.
By Scott
July 21, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this
It’s a natural thing and should be allowed.
By Mara
July 21, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Well, finally!! Where’s the “Geek Squad” when you need ‘em?
By GOB
July 21, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
Yeah, that was some quick IT work…
By Kaka12596
July 21, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this
Not much on my mind lately. My life’s been completely boring these days. I’ve just been hanging out not getting anything done. So it goes.
By GOB
July 21, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Mara - It looks like you and I may be the only survivors…
By lozen
July 21, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
Hey Mara & GOB, I thought the rapture had come and I just didn’t hear about it!
By Kaka72208
July 21, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
I can’t be bothered with anything these days, but such is life. I don’t care. So it goes. More or less nothing seems worth thinking about. I’ve just been hanging out waiting for something to happen, but that’s how it is.
By Mara
July 21, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this
Well, GOB, I have to say…I couldn’t ask for better company :^)
By Mara
July 21, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
LOL!!! The Rapture, indeed! Hey, lozen (waving enthusiastically…) I knew it couldn’t have been the Rapture cuz Dubya, Ralphie-boy, and Man-on-Dog Santorum were still appearing on the tele ;-p
By Mara
July 21, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
the site may be “fixed” but it’s posting very sloooooowly…
By Kaka37713
July 21, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Basically nothing noteworthy happening right now, but eh. Today was a complete loss. I haven’t been up to much recently. I’ve pretty much been doing nothing worth mentioning.
By Chilao
July 21, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
I thought the rapture had come and I just didn’t hear about it!
Well you know that is not for people like you and me, no wonder we missed it. LMAO
By GOB
July 21, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
Mara - I agree about the company…also, if you want a good laugh, check out the pictures on the front page of ajc.com from megafest…good times.
By GOB
July 21, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
The 4th picture is especially good
By Mara
July 21, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
Caption that photo (for #4)- “Heartburn, nausea, indigestion, upset stomach DIARREAH, yay pepto bismol!”
classic, GOB. Sorry, but it just doesn’t look like any of those folks are having a good time.
To caption the whole series of photos - “Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deep dark depression, excessive misery. If it weren’t for bad luck, I’d have no luck at aaaallll. Gloom, despair, and agony on me.”
By Jack
July 21, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
GOB I see what you mean about pic 4. They look like they ate some bad food and are getting ready to ralph.
By GOB
July 21, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
Caption that photo (for #4)- “Heartburn, nausea, indigestion, upset stomach DIARREAH, yay pepto bismol!”
Yeah, it does look like they ate some bad chili…
By lozen
July 21, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
I’m reading historical fiction about Helena, Constantine’s mother. She says, “I could not understand the adoration the christians felt for their god of gloom.”
By lozen
July 21, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
Well you know that is not for people like you and me, no wonder we missed it. LMAO I know that’s the truth Chileo. Have you read any of the “End Times” novels?
By lozen
July 21, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
Jack it was probably bad fried chicken. You know if people really looked like what they ate, all baptist ministers would look like …….fried chicken ;-).
By Chilao
July 21, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Lozen - ‘nada’ on the EndTimes novels, news to me. But (for 72John) I did finally get Margaret Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale from the across-town library, but I have not started it yet.
By Chilao
July 21, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
I wondered if there were any current/better-paying openings for Prophet. LOL (since I saw there was a Prophetess)
By Kaka67823
July 21, 2006 07:27 PM | Link to this
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen, but I don’t care. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL70168
July 22, 2006 03:40 AM | Link to this
My life’s been pretty dull recently. Shrug. My mind is like a void. I haven’t gotten anything done lately. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
By TramadoL66069
July 22, 2006 03:58 AM | Link to this
I haven’t been up to much lately. I’ve basically been doing nothing , but it’s not important. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me lately.