AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2006 > June > 15 > Entry
Do we help or hurt drug abusers with clean needle exchange programs?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
When I was trying to kick the nicotine habit, I was half mad as I dug through my garbage in search of cigarettes. At the time, it made perfect sense to me: Drench my cigarettes in water, crumple the pack, then throw them in the trash. Soon I’d be free from the gnawing insistence to smoke just one more. But the physical reactions of withdrawal inevitably riddled away my resolve, and I’d resort to pillaging the trash, retrieving my plunder, and drying it out in the oven. All of this just to enjoy a few more drags of nicotine before cycling back into addiction samsara. If I had been thinking rationally, I would have realized smoking is unhealthy and digging through my trash for a wet cigarette was desperate.
So pardon me if I doubt heroin addicts think about their behavior rationally. Using a clean needle is at the bottom of their priority list. This doesn’t stop conservatives in New Jersey from blocking legislation supporting free needle exchange for drug abusers though, despite New Jersey’s staggeringly high HIV rates.
Conservatives against free needle exchange reason that “giving an addict a clean needle is like giving an alcoholic a clean glass.”
But this kind of logic makes little sense to Nick Hess, a volunteer for the Atlanta Harm Reduction Center, an organization dedicated to helping drug addicts by distributing clean needles. “People shouldn’t die in the name of some abstract morality. That’s a tangible immorality,” Hess says.
“If you can’t get people to stop risky behavior, you can at least reduce the risk and harm of those behaviors,” explains Hess. “There have been numerous studies that show usage rates do not go up when clean needles are supplied to drug abusers. Instead, infection rates go down.”
“Some argue we’re enabling drug users. My reaction? Yes, we are enabling drug abusers. We’re enabling them to stay alive — along with their loved ones, the people on the bus next to them and society as a whole.” When you compare the costs associated with distributing clean needles with the massive health care costs attributed to HIV infection, he asserts, it makes little financial or moral sense to stand on principle when people are dying.
Rebuttal
It is obvious that pragmatic approaches to drug addiction are needed, and standing on principle is foolish if those principles don’t address the gritty realities of the street. But opponents of needle exchange programs – such as the New Jersey legislators that blocked the Governor’s effort to impose one by fiat — are both highly principle-driven and highly pragmatic. Because after 15 years of effort, widespread needle-exchange programs (NEPs) haven’t provided a viable solution and in many cases appear to be making things worse.
Vancouver, for example, has the largest needle-exchange program in North America – dispensing 2.5 million needles annually — yet one study showed that intravenous drug users’ HIV rates rose from 2% to 23% in the program’s first eight years. Although there had to be other factors contributing to such a spike, it certainly undermines the theory that NEPs should fight the spread of HIV.
In fact, one of the Vancouver study’s authors - Dr. Stephanie Strathdee of Johns Hopkins University – demonstrated that the biggest predictor of HIV infection among intravenous drug users is high-risk sex, not needle sharing at all. To fight drug abuse and its public health implications, we simply must use a treatment-and-education approach.
I know treating drug addiction isn’t easy. Growing up, my college-age uncle was an addict, and despite all our treatment efforts, we lost him because of it. After he died, my parents ran a drug-abuse prevention foundation for years. I know the need for alternative, realistic, long-term approaches.
But therein lies the difference between NEP advocates and opponents. NEP employs a short term philosophy known as “harm reduction,” which essentially says, “These people are going to do what they are going to do, so let’s at least try to limit their suffering.” But there are much better, much more effective, “tough love,” street-wise programs – such as pairing methadone maintenance treatment with behavior therapy — that don’t give the addicts the excuse they are looking for.
Limiting short-term suffering is important, but it can be done in other ways – ways that don’t sabotage the user’s ability or motivation to change. Ways that don’t dig them deeper into addiction, but dig them out.
Comments
By Billy
June 19, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this
Isn’t Shaunti trotting out the dead uncle whenever the topic is remotely related to drugs just like the 9/11 widows? I’ve never seen someone enjoy their uncle’s death so much…
By Billy
June 19, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Seriously, though, I’m all for needle exchange programs. Methodone means just trading one addiction for another, so it has to be strictly monitored to be an effective treatment. But now you can get the stuff at pain clinics. My brother-in-law OD’d on methodone. They later found a prescription bottle in his stuff. It had been for 50 pills. Now, I don’t know how strong the pills were, but 50?
…the biggest predictor of HIV infection among intravenous drug users is high-risk sex…
Well, duh. Of course it is. But I’m not about to start jabbing myself with a dirty needle when there’s a perfectly good new one available. Furthermore, did the study track other blood-borne diseases like Hepatitis? I’d argue that preventing Hep C, if the programs help do that, is a pretty big plus.
By Chilao
June 19, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this
Funny that this was an NPR subject early Sunday morning, probably on that program Inside Europe. Zurich, for example, provides a public methadone program, and the hope is that seeing all the outcasts in line at the clinic will deglamourize heroin usage among young people. Associated crime is also down. I realize this is not a NEP.
I do not understand how a NEP is enabling drug usage, people are going to needle, period(if they are so inclined anyway). Probably best to have clean needles, cut down on HIV(if it does), since we would not want the conservatives’ little kiddies to get HIV or use dirty needles.
And I can certainly relate to smokings cigs from the ashtray or digging butts out of the trash. On that moralistic thought, cigarettes are taxed heavily, as an incentive to cut back on smoking. One has to wonder what would be the new tax should everyone quit, since states would have a substantial reduction in tax revenue, should EVERYONE quit outirght.
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this
I, too, agree with NEP’s mostly because I’ve done volunteer work with HIV positive populations that included ever increasing numbers of IV drug abusers. Many of them didn’t contract HIV through unprotected sex, but through sharing needles. The drive for that next fix was so overpowering that it overrode that little voice that was warning them about sharing a needle even with someone they knew or suspected was HIV positive. No one in that situation that I spoke with ever identified that same overpowering need for unprotected sex with someone they knew or suspected was HIV+. What I took away from this was that many infections would have been avoided had these people had clean needles of their own to use.
Yes, it’s annectodal evidence with no scientific back up. Shaunti allows for that same type of evidence with her statement that “Although there had to be other factors contributing to such a spike, it certainly undermines the theory that NEPs should fight the spread of HIV.” It may undermine the theory, but it does not disprove it and does indicate that more study needs to take place to determine if there is any causal relationship. Is it not possible or even likely that the rate of HIV infection remained fairly constant, but that reporting was greatly improved because prior to the needle exchange program in Vancouver the population of IV drug abusers was off the radar due to a lack of contact with them?
I would like to ask her why she thinks that providing methadone is more ‘tough love’ than providing clean needles? Aren’t both continuing an addiction in a more safe way? Shaunti seems to put forth the presumption that the ideas are mutually exclusive. Couldn’t the distribution of clean needles be a contact opportunity to get someone into a methadone replacement program as well as behavior modification? How is that any more “sabotage the user’s ability or motivation to change” than giving them methadone? Isn’t there a potentially added benefit of reducing HIV infections or Hep (as Billy points out) through needle exchange while also offering additional help in the form of methadone and counseling? I would suggest that ANY contact with a group that can provide help in breaking the cycle of one’s addiction is good regardless of whether it’s to obtain clean, safe needles or a dose of methadone.
By Just Being Me
June 19, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
Hey folks!!! Glad to be back among ya! Happy Belated Fathers Day to the fathers, and Happy Belated Mothers Day to the mothers. :-)
I think we should indeed provide needle exchange programs to make sure the drug addicts don’t contract HIV. I also think we should provide “clean weed” programs to make sure marijuana smokers don’t smoke laced drugs - which could also lead to irresponsible behavior, and contraction of HIV.
By The72John
June 19, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this
I don’t believe that a hard-core addict is going to stop using drugs just because no clean needles are available. So, needle exchange = saving SOME lives that may one day get off of drugs.
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this
Hey JBM! Nice to see you back. Hope all has calmed down in your life or at least returned to a level of manageable. I haven’t been around too much lately either due to overload. That isn’t likely to change much this week since I’m starting my early punishment phase for taking vacation next week….you know that period where everyone suddenly needs you to do the stuff they were planning on you doing while you’re out, but they haven’t asked yet because they forgot you’ll be gone and it absolutely just has to get done or the universe will come to a complete stop? In today’s world it just isn’t a vacation if you don’t start it completely exhausted and on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
By Archie
June 19, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
I am glad to JBM back, no doubt about it. As for the topic question I say we do help drug abusers with a clean needle program. I side with Diane on this issue because any kind of addiction doesn’t lend itself to rationality. We,society, needs to be more honest about addictions of all kinds.
By Just Being Me
June 19, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
LOL!! That’s sooo true, NetB. I usually take vacation during my birthday in December (it always makes me feel like I’m getting over on Mother Nature when I can escape the cold for a warmer place… lol), and it never fails that I’ll get scores of last-minute meeting requests, and a ton of e-mails warning me that the world will indeed come to an end if I don’t get xyz done before I leave.
I hope you enjoy your vacation!!! :-)
By Chilao
June 19, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
Why are alcoholics so accomodated but people get up in arms over NEP or even methadone clinics in their neighborhoods, safe-sex education, etc?
Welcome back, JBM.
By Billy
June 19, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this
Chilao — speaking of safe-sex education —
Shaunti says that the one Vancouver study undermines NEPs. What about that study that revealed that 88% of virginity pledgers end up having sex before marriage? And that they were less likely to use condoms when they did have sex? And that, in the meantime, they were something like four times as likely to engage in oral sex? And something like 8 times more likely to engage in anal sex? Does that study not undermine the abstinence only programs? I don’t see Shaunti calling for those to end…
By pitbull
June 19, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
Self destructive people will find a way to undermine their lives. Give them clean needles and they will be harmed robbing or stealing to support their habits, fighting over drugs, being wounded in a drug deal gone bad, victomized by poorly manufactured drugs, or raped / killed in the penal system. The more you enable self destructive people, the longer you just stretch out the time they suffer until their choices and actions catch up with them. The sad and funny part of this world is to watch folks twist and turn to try and avoid the consequences of their choices. You cannot save people who do not want to be saved.
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this
Chilao…I think that people are ‘comfortable’ with alcoholism because most of us either personally know or are acquainted with someone whose life has been impacted by alcoholism. Most of us consume alcohol so we have a knowledge of what it’s like to have a drink. Very few of us stick needles in our veins to catch a high so the concept is extremely foreign. It is easier to assume that those people are only like the stereotypes seen in movies. How many of us are acquainted with or have direct knowledge of the stereotypical prostitute/homeless junkie on the streets in a bad part of town? Functioning junkies, like functional alcoholics, manage to hide their addiction which makes it even easier to buy into the stereotypes.
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
Pitbull…how exactly is providing clean needles enabling self-destructive people? What is the correlation between clean needles and “robbing or stealing to support their habits, fighting over drugs, being wounded in a drug deal gone bad, victomized by poorly manufactured drugs, or raped / killed in the penal system?” The ‘consequences’ you mention happen today regardless of clean/dirty needles.
Isn’t it likely that those seeking clean needles are open to the idea of changing their behavior because they recognize at least one of the dangers (i.e. sharing dirty needles)? With repeated contact aren’t workers in the NEP more likely to become trusted and successful in helping those who do want to change than a stranger?
By Tim
June 19, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
I have returned from a long hiatus… I say… go with the clean needle method… if it indeed works… I do not know enough about it though to form a hardline opinion… but I say… if the program works… go with it
hello to JBM and Net B… Net B… I am actually goin down to Naples (Fl) the week of the 4th… so next week I will be waiting the 5000 things they expect me to do before I leave that they could not give me until the very last minute
By The72John
June 19, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this
The more you enable self destructive people, the longer you just stretch out the time they suffer until their choices and actions catch up with them.
Or possibly give them a chance to redeem themselves, as some sometimes do. If one person survives HIV-free and kicks the habit, then I would deem the a program succesful.
Or perhaps you relate better to this quote…
If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge,they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Hey Tim! I was on your favorite coast last week for a quick trip. I did get to have just a little bit of fun in Santa Monica and Malibu. I’m off to NYC/North Jersey and Baltimore next week primarily to visit family/friends. I am looking forward to doing some shopping in the city at Century 21 and H&M.
By Tim
June 19, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Net B… put me in warm weather and on the beach and I will be a happy guy :)
By Nikita
June 19, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this
Billy, the problem with methadone isn’t that it’s dangerous, per se. The problem is that the same qualities that make it effective as pain relief also make it easy to OD on, and it doesn’t function like other palliatives do. Notably, methadone delivers a consistent and significant level of pain suppression.
The typical pattern is person takes a pill, doesn’t feel anything. Takes another pill. Still doesn’t feel anything. Takes more pills. Meanwhile each dose is building to max. strength. Suddenly, too late, person realizes that he’s REALLY %$#@ed up. and he dies.
Anyway, methadone is one of the best drugs ever invented for those suffering chronic pain. My husband has been on a very low level of methadone for pain control following an accident in 2000. And it’s wonderful — by far the best solution, giving one minimal danger of addiction and vastly improved ability to function. However, getting methadone is fairly irritating — what with the assumption that you are taking it for drug addiction, the additional restrictions on how much you can have and at what interval, the additional scrutiny, the pharmacies who simply do not carry it. IMHO, the number of ODs isn’t terribly out of line and I would hate to see it taken from those who need it due to concerns about the relatively small number of people who misuse and abuse it.
By Lyrazel
June 19, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
As I remember, Shaunti’s uncle was stricken with a marijuana addiction and that caused him to drink too much which clouded his judgement and thus did other drugs under the influence. Then they all prayed together and cured him, but dear uncle kept slipping because of pot use… She has talked about her dear dead junkie uncle…some of us listened too well….
OK, so pardon if I escape the BS and give some facts
So far THIS YEAR the USA has spent $9,403,927,844 + on the Federal level for the war on drugs. Has it worked? Hmmm not really. They have arrested 742,721 people for drug law offenses—someone is arrested every 20 seconds…HOWEVER…only 5,086 people were incarcerated for drug offenses and the average of 43,266 inmates per year only 25% are for drug users
So we can arrest and incarcerate at costs of several billions of dollars but giving a clean junkie a clean needle is an expense that the national debt cannot handle…
Obviously neither woman has worked with hard core junkies otherwise Shaunti would say What would Jesus do? and err on the side of what is ethical and humane. Diane came close with her wet cigs…close though is not robbing your next door neighbors house for cash, or killing your child because of addiction. Aren’t they both hiding under the truth of the fact there WOULD NOT be such fabulous money to be made in the drug cartel business if there were no customers……sorry but the nation LEADS the way for illegal drug imports should have the resources to help its junkies, right?
We should stop the War on Drugs and use the money to begin rehabilitation centers that do more than dump junkies back on the street after a night in lock up. We should stop making villains of marijuana users and stop the blackmarket that supplies them. As every farmer knows: you can make 80K/4 months growing marijuana but 6K/in 7 months for legal crop like corn, wheat, etc. Do the math.
By Billy
June 19, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this
Nikita, I agree. But my bro-in-law managed to get multiple prescriptions from a probably less-than-ethically-upstanding doctor for it. Yes, he was battling drugs for 10 or 15 years. My point is that methadone is not some sort of panacea for the end of heroin addiction. And regardless, what better way to get people into methadone programs than to hit them up with joining whenever they come in for a fresh needle?
By The72John
June 19, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
So far THIS YEAR the USA has spent $9,403,927,844 + on the Federal level for the war on drugs. Has it worked? Hmmm not really. They have arrested 742,721 people for drug law offenses—someone is arrested every 20 seconds…HOWEVER…only 5,086 people were incarcerated for drug offenses and the average of 43,266 inmates per year only 25% are for drug users
I think it boils down to the fact that the average Americans is willing to spend Billions on punishment and absolutely unwilling to spend anything on help or rehabilitation.
By GOB
June 19, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
I think it boils down to the fact that the average Americans is willing to spend Billions on punishment and absolutely unwilling to spend anything on help or rehabilitation.
Wait, that cant be right. Afterall, this is a christian nation, and was founded on christian beliefs like love your neighbor as yourself…
Sorry, I forgot joke day is friday, not monday…whoops.
By Billy
June 19, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
GOB! I was thinking you were a tumbleweed for a second there…
By GOB
June 19, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
GOB! I was thinking you were a tumbleweed for a second there…
Yeah, this might be a record time for exhausting a topic.
By Nikita
June 19, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this
Yeah, sorry. Back on topic, I favor needle exchange programs, not least of which because they’re, like, 300 times as effective as abstinence-only education in preventing disease. and we pay for that boondoggle.
As an interesting side note about Shaunti’s position, I read a fascinating article in the New Yorker a few months ago about the egregious offenders of society. The gist was, more or less, that it might make sense to treat most people in a carrot/stick way with consistent pressure to take responsibility for your own actions, but the most egregious are small in number and completely unwilling to respond to that. And they cost us a lot of money and trouble. The main example was a drunk who died last year after injuring himself 20+ times in the year, costing the state more than $1 million.
So it’s more effective to neutralize the small, very expensive group of hardcore offenders by doing whatever you have to to resolve their issues and minimize their impact on society. The main thing that keeps us from doing so on any kind of grand scale is positions like Shaunti’s which hold that under no conditions can we reward certain negative types of behavior — and neutralization almost always consists of compassionate care for the handful of egregious offenders. Housing, rehab, supervision/guidance, medical treatment, etc.
By The72John
June 19, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
Yeah, this might be a record time for exhausting a topic.
It’s possible that most of the regulars spontaneously lapsed into a coma halfway through reading the two positions and are even now slumped over their keyboards, drool running on to the desk beneath them.
By Renee
June 19, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
John too funny. I absolutely believe in needle exchange programs. I too found Shaunti’s dead uncle story a bit funny to say the least. I think she’s so unattached personally, that she grasps on to anything to make herself personally attached.
By Chilao
June 19, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
and are even now slumped over their keyboards, drool running on to the desk beneath them.
huh? huh? rubbing eyes what?
what’s that puddle of moisture soaking my shoes, eeewww, gross
By The72John
June 19, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
Yeah, who else wants to make a bet that the “dead uncle” might show up again in another collumn - why we shouldn’t give out condoms.
“My college age uncle had sex, and after he died of AIDS my family started an abstinence-only program blah blah blah”
By Billy
June 19, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
Good points, Nikita. We’re so proud of our “hard work and fighting” mythos that we never do things the easy way, even if it’s sometimes the best way. We’ll do the hard thing just out of spite.
For example: Were Kim Jong Il, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Osama Bin Laden and whoever the hell in running Hamas get together and agree to not attack America in exchange for the annual payment of two large boxes of Jello Pudding Pops, we wouldn’t accept the offer. Because they are bad people whose ideals are contrary to the American way of life.
Take the heroin addicts and hive them what they need. I’m talking putting them in cheap housing with clean needles and making food drops. They’re out of everyone’s hair.
By lozen
June 19, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
I just tuned in, read the two sides of the “debate” and then skipped to the bottom to find 72John’s 3:46. Did you ever consider being a stand-up comedian John? It’s so hard to make my co-workers think I’m working when you make me laugh out loud and sniffle and bend over the desk to try to hide my laughing! I didn’t even bother to read any of the comments because - well - just not interested in this topic. Been on vacation for the past couple of weeks - somebody had to do it! Sure makes it hard to return to work. Retirement is gonna be so nice!
By Billy
June 19, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
“My college age uncle had sex, and after he died of AIDS my family started an abstinence-only program blah blah blah”
Which has led hundreds of teens to not use condoms when they end up deciding to have sex…
By GOB
June 19, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
…agree to not attack America in exchange for the annual payment of two large boxes of Jello Pudding Pops
Can you even get Jello Pudding Pops anymore?? Man, those were quality.
By The72John
June 19, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this
Glad I could be entertaining…since the topic sure wasn’t that engaging :-)
By The72John
June 19, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
Can you even get Jello Pudding Pops anymore?? Man, those were quality.
Jello Pudding Pops were da bomb, but I can’t think about them without seeing images of Bill Cosby dancing around and making faces and wearing one of those dang 80’s sweaters. It’s some kind of wierd 80’s media synthesis that only I experience…
By Billy
June 19, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this
Can you even get Jello Pudding Pops anymore?? Man, those were quality.
Stopping terrorism should be enough to get them produced again…
By Kyle
June 19, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
a whole week on this topic? hmmm, looks like joke day can’t get here soon enough
By Netbanker
June 19, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this
Fast forwarding to Friday because it’s the blogosphere and I can suspend reality in here (according to my partner I do this all the time so why not here?)
Bubba, a furniture dealer from Arkansas, wanted to expand the line of furniture in his store, so he decided to go to Paris to see what he could find. After arriving in Paris he met with some manufacturers and selected a line that he thought would sell well back home in Arkansas. To celebrate the new acquisition, he decided to visit a small bistro and have a glass of wine. As he sat enjoying his wine, he noticed that the small place was quite crowded, and that the other chair at his table was the only vacant seat in the house.
Before long, a very beautiful young Parisian girl came to his table, asked him something in French (which he did not understand), and motioned toward the chair. He invited her to sit down. He tried to speak to her in English, but she did not speak his language so, after a couple of minutes of trying to communicate with her, he took a napkin and drew a picture of a wine glass and showed it to her. She nodded, and he ordered a glass of wine for her.
After sitting together at the table for a while, he took another napkin, and drew a picture of a plate with food on it, and she nodded. They left the bistro and found a quiet cafe that featured a small group playing romantic music. They ordered dinner, after which he took another napkin and drew a picture of a couple dancing. She nodded, and they got up to dance. They danced until the cafe closed and the band was packing up.
Back at their table, the young lady took a napkin and drew a picture of a four-poster bed. To this day, Bubba has no idea how she figured out he was in the furniture business.
On the quite serious topic of Jello Pudding Pops this article from 2004 said they were back under the Popsicle brand. (http://www.x-entertainment.com/articles/0904/). According to the Unilever Ice Cream web site they are only sold in Ingles Supermarkets in the GA area.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 07:23 AM | Link to this
YEAH!!! There’s an Ingles on Glade Road…I got it made!
(mmmmmm…chocolate pudding…mmmmmmmm…)
By GOB
June 20, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this
According to the Unilever Ice Cream web site they are only sold in Ingles Supermarkets in the GA area.
Sweet! There is an Ingles right down the road. It’s totally ratty, but for some pudding pops, I can deal with it…
By RF
June 20, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this
Mornin’ all! Just checking in to see how the summer’s going. Good to see JBM back!! :-)
Pudding pops are good, but nothing beats a good old fudgesicle (sp?) on a hot day like today’s gonna be! I’ll just settle for a tall glass of homemade iced tea while I sit on the front porch swing and watch what’s left of the grass dry up!!LOL I don’t know what we did to p** off the rain gods so bad, but I wish they’d get over it and give us some rain. I’m ‘bout tired of watering the flower beds!
By Mara
June 20, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this
Why do you suppose Georgia gets all the Jello Pudding Pops? I mean, this isn’t a regional delicacy like those deep-fried, powdersugar-coated pancake thingys they sell at the fair…these are Pudding Pops fer gawd sake! Really, it’s kinda creepy if you dwell on the “whys” and not on your good fortune of living near an Ingles :^)
By The72John
June 20, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this
I would like to take a moment from the reminiscing about Pudding Pops to point and laugh at the American Family Association.
I invite everyone to read the editorial today (if you haven’t already) about their bleating over a strongly evangelical-themed movie being given a PG rating.
This group is so mired in its own imaginary persecution complex that it actually believes that a film being given a PG rating is an assault on “Christianity”. This, from an organization that attacks EVERY movie or television program that has the least bit of sex or violence, no matter what its rating or time slot.
It’s also funny that they attack a ratings board created by like-minded censors and thought police as being rabidly anti-Christian. Some people have no perspective.
By GOB
June 20, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this
I’ll just settle for a tall glass of homemade iced tea while I sit on the front porch swing and watch what’s left of the grass dry up!!
Sounds like a hard day at the office…Man, I hope I get next summer off…
By RF
June 20, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this
GOB- it isn’t all that glamorous. I have a week of class next week, I’m doing an online master’s, and I agreed to do a week of summer camp for upcoming freshmen the last week of July. The swing doesn’t get overused, let me tell ya! We’re trying to squeeze in a trip to Rock City and the beach before we go back to school.
How’d the interview go? any job offers yet?
By Billy
June 20, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this
those deep-fried, powdersugar-coated pancake thingys they sell at the fair
Funnel cakes? Funnel cakes are awesome!
By GOB
June 20, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this
John - I will now join you in your pointing and lauging.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this
Mmmmm…funnel cakes…
By GOB
June 20, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this
Rf - It went pretty well. I havent gotten any offers yet, but I have another interview today for a middle school job, and then one tomorrow for high school, along with a soccer coaching position.
Hopefully something will come out of these two.
By GOB
June 20, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this
RF - About 30 seconds after I sent that last response, I got another call for an interview. Now I have 3 in the next 3 days.
By RF
June 20, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
GOB- sounds promising. Good luck! I wouldn’t teach middle school if they doubled my salary (well, actually if that happened I might). Middle school’s a weird age for children.
John- those are the same people who send money to the 700 club and other such foolishness. Their brains have been poisoned by all the products it takes to get those hairdos!!LOL Persecution’s okay as long as they’re the ones giving it.
Funnel cakes are da bomb!
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this
The other conclusion is more disturbing. It would seem that watchdog groups like Wildmon’s American Family Association are capable of twisting even the most inconsequential issue into a national emergency.
it worked; another editorial r&imjob to a slimeball.
I have not patronized Blockbuster since they kissed his a-s-s over the NC-17 rating.
By GOB
June 20, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this
RF - Yeah, the middle school is not my top choice of the 3 interviews I have. I have coached that age a lot, and I can handle it, but wouldnt choose it over high school (and the latest interview is for a school that is less than 5 minutes from my house, but in a different county).
By The72John
June 20, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
I hope you teach ‘em to play dirty! I had a coach when I was younger who was a retired Peruvian national team member. He taught us all KINDS of nasty tricks. Nothing like fifth graders throwing bad tackles and forcing handballs.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
Yes, Billy. The funnel cakes. I forgot what they’re called. I’d never even heard of ‘em until I moved to Georgia. They look really tasty, but I’m just not brave enough to eat food from a cart…
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this
maybe that wasn’t fair, but why give Wildmon any airtime/presstime at all?
By The72John
June 20, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
Yes, Billy. The funnel cakes. I forgot what they’re called. I’d never even heard of ‘em until I moved to Georgia. They look really tasty, but I’m just not brave enough to eat food from a cart…
Mara, you just need to get over that phobia and eat a funnel cake. Eat it…EAT IT!
Remember, all foods taste better when A) They are served from a cart -or- B) They are on a stick. When both conditions are met and you are outside at an event where people are wearing strange clothing, you are in Junk Food Heaven.
By Jack
June 20, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
Hello Folks. They are trying to kill me at work this week so you won’t be hearing from me much.
Mara. Expand your horizons, eat food from a cart, it hasn’t killed New Yorkers yet. (best hotdogs ever)
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
Mara - I also had to move to the South to be exposed to funnel cakes, first one was in Memphis at a festival. They are absolutely great, as long as fries and fish have not also been done in the same frialator. Had some fish and funnel cakes once(taste-wise). LOL
By Billy
June 20, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this
Mara, it’s basically just a donut.
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
Of course more reputable funnel cake fryers don’t mix the frialators. in fact, most specialize, you want fish and chips? next concession. LOL
By RF
June 20, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
Mara- you haven’t really experienced the real South until you’ve had a funnel cake from a cart at a fair. YUM!!
Just because the package says “Christian” on the outside does not mean Jesus is on the inside.
This from a baptist minister. I like the fella! When a baptist preacher calls the AFA nuts, you really have to wonder about the sanity of such an organization.
By GOB
June 20, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
John - I taught them some nice tricks. I had a coach who played for the Jamaican team (and really, are their dirtier teams in the world than those in South America and the Carribean?) I was a keeper, so I could get away with even more…”I swear, I was trying to punch the ball. I didnt even see his face…”
By The72John
June 20, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this
My Peruvian coach taught us to aim for the crotch…
By GOB
June 20, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
My Peruvian coach taught us to aim for the crotch…
Always a good strategy, especially for a field player. I have played a lot of sports in my day, but nothing comes close to soccer in terms of dirty play.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
all right. Y’all peer-pressured me into it. If they have ‘em at the Atlanta Pride Festival this weekend…I will try a funnel cake.
John - Remember, all foods taste better when A) They are served from a cart -or- B) They are on a stick. When both conditions are met and you are outside at an event where people are wearing strange clothing, you are in Junk Food Heaven.
This describes the RenFest to a “T” LOL!!
By The72John
June 20, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
nothing comes close to soccer in terms of dirty play.
Or drama and overacting…
International class soccer players are the best (read - worst) overactors I have ever seen. And I majored in theatre and endured several years of freshmen auditioning for the first time.
At least it’s comical.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this
Hey kids! Thought I’d drop in while gnoshing on lunch at my desk.
RF…nice to ‘see’ you. Apparently you’ve been busy taking a little down time with the boys? My question is what did all y’all teachers do to p** off the heat gods? It wasn’t ungodly hot until school let out.
Poorly written statement on my part on the pudding pops. I didn’t mean to imply that they’re only sold in GA. Ingles is the only grocery store chain in GA that sells them.
Funnel cakes are they BEST! How did you guys who lived up North miss them? The absolutely best ones are found at the Friday/Saturday night permanent flea markets/auctions/fair grounds in lower Central PA Amish country. Which still meets all of John’s criteria including the strange clothing! Now I’ve got a taste for a large funnel cake topped with cherry pie filling, drizzled with chocolate syrup, and covered in whipped cream.
I’m kind of bummed out about missing Pride this year. We’re starting our long trek North on Thursday night and are spending the weekend with friends in Baltimore before heading up to NYC on Sunday afternoon for the mother-in-law’s birthday. Baltimore’s Pride was last weekend, Atlanta’s is this coming weekend, and NYC’s is also this weekend. Oh well…it’s not like I haven’t been to many a Pride or circuit party with lots of shirtless hottie strangers running around. Friends and family are more important than strangers even if they are an eye-candy buffet.
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this
Ingles is the only grocery store chain in GA that sells them.
I was wondering why Ingles had made the decision to ONLY stock them in the GEORGIA area. LOL
thanks for the clarification.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
nothing comes close to soccer in terms of dirty play. I’ll put lacrosse in the running with soccer…at least up through college. After that there isn’t a professional league. There are dirty tricks and a level of physical contact akin to hockey. Aim for the crotch takes on a whole new meaning when skirmishing for a loose ball on the gound and you have a stick in your hands. “Oops…I was only going after the ball…and I mean the one on the ground…which now yours technically are since you’re rolling around holding your crotch”
By The72John
June 20, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
Ok. This is the slowest week ever in the Blogosphere.
By Jack
June 20, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
A good cup is all you need to prevent that. Dirt in the eyes works better.
By Kyle
June 20, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this
as rough as those sports may be, nothing tops rugby. its just a big fight with a ball being randomly tossed around - i got a few friends who played on the club team in college, those guys are freakin’ crazy
By RF
June 20, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
Net- it’s a carefully planned plot with Mother Nature. Keep it hot until the little buggers can’t stand anymore, then they’re ready to come back to school where it’s cool!
We’ve actually stayed pretty busy since school got out. Amazing how much stuff you find that you need to donate when you have a day to clean out closets and the garage.
I personally prefer the good ol’ games of touch football we played in the grandparents front yard. That was killer football without the pads. Cheap shots were not only expected, they were a required element to keep your family status intact. Actually it was a good way to get in some cheap shots on the annoying, spoiled cousins. Even my grandpa used to chuckle when one of them got a good nutbuster applied.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
as rough as those sports may be, nothing tops rugby
Please limit this discussion to actual sports. Brawls with balls aren’t allowed.
Though, from a personal standpoint I really find the whole “scrum” concept to be very appealing…
By Billy
June 20, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
Do y’all have the same ads at the bottom of your screen that I do? The first is for Biotene, which is evidently a dry mouth treatment. The second might be there becasue of Whiley…”Women’s Psychiatric Care”…
By Mara
June 20, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
yup. Slow, slow, s-l-o-w…..
Just popped over to The New Republic and read Martha Nussbaum’s assessment of Harvey Mansfield’s view of masculinity as put forward in his book “Manliness”. Good read. Interesting.
By GOB
June 20, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
So…anyone have a topic that might be worth discussing?
By The72John
June 20, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this
So…anyone have a topic that might be worth discussing?
Scrums?
By Mara
June 20, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
How about “activist” judges?
to get us started -
ON THE MORNING of November 14, 2003, Iowa District Judge Jeffrey Neary met with lawyers to approve routine court orders. One of the cases before him was a divorce. It was uncontested, and Neary didn’t think twice about signing the papers dissolving the marriage. Then he glanced at the couple’s names and realized the breakup was anything but typical. He turned to the lawyer for one of the parties and exclaimed, “These two people are ladies!” Neary had just signed divorce papers for Kimberly Brown and Jennifer Perez, a lesbian couple who had entered into a same-sex civil union in Vermont. Same-sex unions are not recognized in Iowa, but instead of withdrawing the order, Neary amended the paperwork to indicate that he had terminated a civil union and settled property disputes between the women.
When Neary’s decision made the news a few weeks later, Christian conservatives were enraged. In late January, a score of protesters picketed the Sioux City courthouse, waving banners that said “God Hates F*” and denouncing Neary as a “liberal activist” and a member of an “antichristic court.”
“I was just trying to settle a dispute between two people,” Neary says. But he made his decision just days before the Massachusetts Supreme Court upheld the legality of same-sex marriage in that state. Conservative Christians were ready for a fight.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
Gee, thanks Mara. I was trying to get through one day without dwelling on the fact that there are people out there who are so overwhelming concerned with my life that they spend every waking hour figuring out new and more inventive ways to F*** IT UP.
And now you’ve ruined that.
By RF
June 20, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Conservative Christians were ready for a fight.
When aren’t they ready for a fight? If there’s nothing else, they’ll get a good church-splitting fight going over a Bible verse. Been there, seen it happen. And let’s face it, anything having to do with the H word will get ‘em stirred up faster than ants at a picnic!
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
Yup, I’ll go with rugby. It is one wild game played by crazy people…and my 8th grade algebra teacher…who we always assumed was a lesbian, but would have been waaayyyy to afraid to say anything about because she could have kicked anyone’s a ss with one hand tied behind her back.
Geez RF, your boys must just be loving you…cleaning out closets and the garage?! OIY! While I appreciate and fully support donating unused stuff even I hate that chore. Yet I do like the way an uncluttered closet looks. Sometimes it seems like a hopeless exercise because I know that as soon as I close the closet door the stuff in there will start breeding and in no time at all they’ll have filled the space back up.
I haven’t played touch football in a long while. Sunday evening I was out with Abby watching her scamper around the yard trying to catch lightening bugs and it made me think of being a kid doing the same thing…not that I used my mouth to catch them like she does. That led me to thinking about the summertime neighborhood evening games of kickball, whiffle ball, dodge ball, a little hide and seek, SPUD, spitting watermelon seeds, taking turns cranking away on the ice cream churn, blue freezer pops (my favorite color/flavor), running for the Good Humor truck to get a chocolate eclair or strawberry shortcake ice cream, hearing my mother tell us at night to “lie still, you’ll feel a breeze” in the days before we had air conditioning.
I do not feel like working. Scootch over on that swing, would ya? I could use a few minutes to close my eyes and just listen to the rise and fall of the buzzing of the June bugs while we sit still hoping to feel a breeze.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
RF - the “H” word? You mean…heresy? Ham? Hooch? ;^P
John - sorry ‘bout that. I was reading it more for the fundamentalist v. the Constitution instead of dwelling on why they were outraged. Heck, you can tell ‘em “Happy Holidays” and they go all red-faced and foamy lipped…
By RF
June 20, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
Net- do you wonder how we ever survived without A/C? I renovated a house in SW ATL about ten years ago and didn’t even have window units the first summer there. I ‘bout died! We had one, ONE, window unit as kids until dad took the plunge and bought us a brick house with central air. We thought we had died and gone to heaven!! God how I do miss the whiffle ball games in my Aunt’s front yard. Only problem was the holly bush at first base, but you learned to kick it on the way by and not get spurred.
The swing’s nice, but the humidity’s up today so you’ll just sit and simmer out there.
By RF
June 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
Heck, you can tell ‘em “Happy Holidays” and they go all red-faced and foamy lipped… ROFL
And I thought they only did that delivering the sermon on Sundays!
By GOB
June 20, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
running for the Good Humor truck to get a chocolate eclair or strawberry shortcake ice cream
I actually heard the ice cream truck coming through my neighborhood last week.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
I actually heard the ice cream truck coming through my neighborhood last week.
Ah, the ice cream man…he actually comes through my neighborhood daily.
Of course, he isn’t nearly as cool as the guy that came through the neighborhood where some of my college friends lived our senior year…that ice cream man not only had the kind of ice cream that melts, he had the kind that smokes…
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
“I was just trying to settle a dispute between two people” How horrible! How agregious! How anti-christian! Didn’t he realize they weren’t just people with a property dispute?! They’re lesbians! That’s sooooo sinful God could make you burn in hell for just saying the L word or the H word…or, or the G word! That last one is gay, but shhhhhh! We’ve got to stop this right now!! I can feel my keyboard getting ready to just burst into flames any second now. And how would I explain that to my IT department without causing the phone to melt?!
By RF
June 20, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
GOB- my boys hear it a block away. I had to tuck some dollar bills in the cookie jar to keep ‘em from having a hissy fit if I don’t have any cash when the truck comes! They were really quiet in their room the other day and I went in to find them rolling pennies “just in case the ice cream man comes”. God, they’re precious sometimes!
Okay, since we’re waxing nostalgic, I SOOO miss the old store over by my parents’ where you could go in and get a COLD Pepsi in a glass bottle from the chest with the sliding lid and stand there soaking up the cold until the old man got after you for letting his cold air out. If we were really polite, he’d give us a Moon Pie for sweeping up the peanut shells out around the rocking chairs out front.
By Jack
June 20, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Good dig on Whiley N.D.
By Kyle
June 20, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
its not the “Happy Holidays” that gets people mad - its how some people seem to frown upon the use of “Merry Christmas.” Keep in mind when you sit back on the blog and seemingly lump all conservative christians into the same group as the extreme religious fanatics, stereotypes never fit an entire group, and its pretty ignorant to assume they do.
-there, that ought to spark up some banter
By The72John
June 20, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
One wonders why you waste so much time defending a woman who is clearly insane and clearly psychotic. Maybe its some misguided “I’m a man so I have to be nice to all women no matter how insane they are” thing.
You do her no service by pandering to her insanity.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
And I thought they only did that delivering the sermon on Sundays
LOL!! Since the conversation has moved to childhood memories, let me mingle the two topics with a bit of silliness from Dave Barry -
Well, when I was a kid I’d take a trip every summer down the Mississippi
To visit my granny in her antebellum world
I’d run barefooted all day long climbin’ trees free as a song
And one day I happened to catch myself a squirrel
Well, I stuffed him down in an old shoe box, punched a couple of holes in the top
And when Sunday came I snuck him into Church
I was sittin’ way back in the very last pew showin’ him to my good buddy Hugh
When that squirrel got loose and went totally berserk
Well, what happened next is hard to tell
Some thought it was heaven others thought it was hell
But the fact that something was among us was plain to see
As the choir sang “I Surrender All” the squirrel ran up Harv Newlan’s coveralls
Harv leaped to his feet and said, “Somethin’s got a hold on me”, Yeow!
Chorus
The day the squirrel went berserk
In the First Self-Righteous Church
In the sleepy little town of Pascagoula
It was a fight for survival that broke out in revival
They were jumpin’ pews and shoutin’ Hallelujah!
Well, Harv hit the aisles dancin’ and screamin’
Some thought he had religion others thought he had a demon
And Harv thought he had a weed eater loose in his Fruit-Of-The-Looms
He fell to his knees to plead and beg and the squirrel ran out of his britches leg
Unobserved to the other side of the room
All the way down to the amen pew where sat Sister Bertha better-than-you
Who’d been watchin’ all the commotion with sadistic glee
But you should’ve seen the look in her eyes
When that squirrel jumped her garters and crossed her thighs
She jumped to her feet and said “Lord have mercy on me”
As the squirrel made laps inside her dress
She began to cry and then to confess to sins that would make a sailor blush with shame
She told of gossip and church dissension but the thing that got the most attention
Was when she talked about her love life and then she started naming names
Chorus
The day the squirrel went berserk
In the First Self-Righteous Church
In that sleepy little town of Pascagoula
It was a fight for survival that broke out in revival
They were jumpin’ pews and shoutin’ Hallelujah!
Well seven deacons and the pastor got saved,
Twenty-five thousand dollars was raised and fifty volunteered
For missions in the Congo on the spot
Even without an invitation there were at least five hundred rededications
And we all got baptized whether we needed it or not
Now you’ve heard the bible story I guess
How he parted the waters for Moses to pass
Oh the miracles God has wrought in this old world
But the one I’ll remember ‘til my dyin’ day
Is how he put that Church back on the narrow way
With a half crazed Mississippi squirrel
Chorus
The day the squirrel went berserk
In the First Self-Righteous Church
In the sleepy little town of Pascagoula
It was a fight for survival that broke out in revival
They was jumpin’ pews and shoutin’ Hallelujah!
By The72John
June 20, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
*its how some people seem to frown upon the use of “Merry Christmas.”
Bullsh!t. It’s because people don’t bow to the obvious superiority of Christianity. Conservative Christians have decided that if they aren’t allowed dominance over others, that they are being persecuted against.
Keep in mind when you sit back on the blog and seemingly lump all conservative christians into the same group as the extreme religious fanatics, stereotypes never fit an entire group, and its pretty ignorant to assume they do.
Hmm…in my experience “conservative Christian” and “pig-ignorant bigot” seem to go hand-in-hand. For the most part.
By RF
June 20, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
careful Kyle, if we take away the stereotypes, there won’t be anything to fuss about on either side! LOL
AND, those stereotypes are no more ignorant than the ones readily applied to any other group. The stereotypes exist because there are enough examples to create them.
I like what my sweet mama said one day, “If you can’t say something nice about this family, then it’s going to be a REAL quiet day around here!”
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
oops…by 5:15pm when my Dad got home from work.
You get used to the heat to some degree. During my college summers I managed swimming pools and got so used to the heat from being outside all the time that I’d be wearing sweat pants and long sleeve t-shirts at home because it felt so cold to me.
I’ll be ok in the heat for a little while…so long as you’ll share a glass of that sweet tea you brewed up.
I love that story about your boys rolling pennies! and talking about that store reminded me that I need to tell my parents that there are two things we absolutely must do while I’m visiting them. The first is drive out to the middle of nowhere to the Double Dip for large, soft serve vanilla cone dipped in chocolate and rolled in crushed peanuts. The other is to go to the Snowball Stand down by the church for an Egg Custard snowball and then stroll down to the pond to sit on the dock and dangle our feet in the water.
Question…does a Moon Pie count if you’re not having it with an RC Cola?
By Mara
June 20, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
Kyle - I beg to differ. I specifically said “fundamentalist” because that’s what they are. IMO, they aren’t “conservative” and they certainly aren’t “christian” except in the “I believe in Christ” sense. They are extremist, fundamentalist wackos that give a really bad name to the many upstanding and admirable christian folks I know. They are the dominist/reconstructionists that would be pleased as punch if they could scrap the Constitution completely and converted everyone to their specific brand of christianity and ushered in the golden age of Christian theocracy.
So don’t go all red-faced, foamy-lipped and wild eyed just because I happened to mention “Happy Holidays” and “christian” in the same paragraph….which I didn’t even do.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
Billy, I just got that Women’s Psych ad. When I scrolled down I had 2 ads for Men’s rights in child custody and another asking “What kind of mom are you?” For a second I wondered if Justin had taken over the ads.
I hear the ice cream truck, but never see it. I think it goes through ‘Crack Town’ (aka Scottdale) behind my house. Wouldn’t surprise me if that one doesn’t also sell smokeable “treats.” I was always amazed by the way the ice cream man could take your order, walk around his truck to one of the little doors, pop it open, reach inside, and when he withdrew his hand he’d always have the treat you’d asked for. Of course my Granny it explained it to me. You see Santa’s Elves work with the ice cream man in the summer handing him the right treats when he puts his hand in (they like the cold you know being from the North Pole and all) It’s a way to check up on the kids and to make sure you were being nice all year instead of just before Christmas. So you don’t ever push any of the other kids and you ALWAY mind your Ps&Qs with the ice cream man! It was a real let down when they started using vans.
By Mara
June 20, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
hey guys. why do they call it the “World Cup” when really it’s just the play-offs, semi-finals, or what-have-you? Shouldn’t they wait til the cup is actually on the line before touting it as the World Cup? Isn’t it kinda like calling post-season football the “Super Bowl” or the hockey playoffs as the “Stanley Cup”. It just seems weird…
By Kyle
June 20, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this
-that’s more like it, i knew that post would work
-John72 - easy now, simply wanting someone to say merry christmas (in addition to happy holidays or happy hannakah) is hardly enforcing one’s superiority upon another - or are you even talking about the merry xmas issue anymore? it has almost gotten to the point where its politically incorrect to say merry christmas, and that just seems weird to me. as for your “pig-ignorant bigot” stereotype comment comment, that seems to be a drastically different stance on stereotypes than you were taking last week (although i may be confusing you with another person). if i recall correctly, you went out of your way to assure any african americans on the blog that the racial stereotypes you were throwing out were not your beliefs at all, and you were only saying those stereotypes to prove a point to someone else that stereotypes can be extremely aggravating - and they hardly represent reality. any such effort to assure any possibly religious people on this blog that your comments were not meant to insult them?
RF - i understand there are some people out there who fit the mold of these religious stereotypes, and that they are no more ignorant than the stereotypes used to describe other groups. the difference is, no self-respecting person on this blog would post a homosexual or racial slur - just seems odd that its far easier and way more accepted to bash religious people, why is that?
Mara - so what exactly do you “beg to differ” about? i am well aware that there are fanatical fundamentalists out there who have no ability to accept people who choose a different lifestyle - we are in agreement there. i just don’t like it when people get thrown into that group simply because they go to church every sunday, and like to say Merry Christmas (not to say that is what you were doing)
By RF
June 20, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
Net- a Moon Pie counts with anything. RC is more traditional, but we were Pepsi and Coke people out in the boondocks (which are now being filled with mini-mansions for the SUV crowd).
The vans are nothing like the old truck, and some of the folks driving them around here look like they’ve been hitting the crack pipe a few too many times, bless their hearts.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Don’t question the soccer. Ever.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this
OK…now I’m looking crazy! I oops’d because I thought I’d hit something to post about not having airconditioning when I wasn’t done so then I just finished where I left off. and it turns out that my post got ‘eaten.’ It’s rather hard to comprehend finishing where one left off if you didn’t even know there was a place to be left off from. Everyone follow that?
Maybe I should digress. We got AC when I was 10. Mr. Jim across the street worked for Carrier and bought AC units for his family and ours. Then they worked together to install both of them. My mother wasn’t wild about ac (or she was worried about the electric bill) and would leave the windows open all day until about 4:30pm when she’d close up the house and turn it on so the house would be cool “oops…by 5:15pm when my Dad got home from work.”
Mara…thanks for the Dave Barry! I loved reading his columns when I was growing up. There is always something in there that I can identify with. It’s comforting to know that there are others in the world as twisted as I.
OOOOOOOOooooohhhhhh! Kyle whacked the fundy hornet’s nest! Everyone grab a Bible and a funeral fan! Here we go!
DISCLAIMER: Please keep all hands and feet inside the car until the ride has come to a full and complete stop. Please secure all loose items (including cranial contents) to avoid undue injury.
By RF
June 20, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
So did anyone else see the article about Bubba Perdue going after the Corps of Engineers for letting too much water out of Lanier? Some of his buddies/funding sources up there must have found their housboats high and dry! The Corps had a “faulty” gauge. Like they couldn’t look out the “winder” and realize the fish floppin’ in the mud ought to be telling them something??
Kyle- this tends to be a fairly polarized blog most days, and the extremes post regularly. Seems the religious fanatics are all busy so far this week, but they’ll be here. They get and give a lot of attacks, and if you read back you have to admit they get pretty arrogant too. It gets biased here but it’s funny to read. Just read some of the stuff Zack and others post and you’ll understand. They are about as sharp as a dull butter knife (not to be stereoptyping them or anything! LOL)
By Mara
June 20, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Don’t question the soccer. Ever.
Now I know what Johns religion is…(heh, heh, heh…)
Kyle - …when you sit back on the blog and seemingly lump all conservative christians into the same group
this is what I begged to differ on. I was not lumping them together with the fundies. and since you added the parenthesied item at the end of the next peice, no problem.
people get thrown into that group simply because they go to church every sunday, and like to say Merry Christmas (not to say that is what you were doing)
good. I wasn’t doing that. But you have it wrong. It isn’t the people who like to say “Merry Christmas” that annoy me…it’s the ones who say that’s the only thing the rest of us should say.
Anyhoooo. End o’ day. C-ya
By RF
June 20, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
OOOOOOOOooooohhhhhh! Kyle whacked the fundy hornet’s nest! Everyone grab a Bible and a funeral fan! Here we go! LOLOL
Don’t forget your hat and gloves and the Kleenex stuffed in your sleeve so you can dab the sweat off.
By Chilao
June 20, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
Apparently Dave Barry has also come out with a humorous novel or two. Checked one out from the library last week(Tricky Business) but I am reading the crime drama(different author) one first. LOL
By The72John
June 20, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
Well Kyle, I don’t really consider it stereotyping, when the editorial sections of newspapers, or blogs, or forums, or chat rooms - not to mention their own web sites - are full of hatred and bigotry. I’m not making things up, I’m merely reacting to the words of those - and I’m going to assume you - people.
Since rigid adherence to a code that demands one be prejudiced and judgemental is a defining quality in a religious fundamentalist, I don’t really think I’m operating in the realm of stereotyping by assuming that quality in anyone who claims the label.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
Mara…no more strange than the name World Series for baseball when it’s only American teams. If it was really the world series it would be an international tournament…which at least World Cup Soccer is. It’s still called Wimbledon and all the players are going for that top prize even when they’re only showing the initial rounds of play.
RF, I feel you on the vans and drivers. It took all the mystery out of the ice cream truck and the drivers seem kind of creepy now when they used to be clean cut and dressed in their uniform. We can’t use Granny’s explanation on any of the nieces/nephews or young kids in my neighborhood either. Who’d believe the need for an elf in a van?
The boondocks must be somewhere around ‘the edge of nowhere’ or ‘East of bumblefu ck’ where I grew up. It wouldn’t surprise me to find strip mall or high-end subdivision next to the Double Dip when I go ‘home.’ It’ll be sad, but not surprising. That’s one of the reasons I don’t want to go back to the town where we had our beach house. My mother said I wouldn’t recognize it and that it’s getter harder each year to find old landmarks from the sleepy little one traffic light town it used to be. How is it that Europe has managed to survive and change throughout hundreds of years and managed not to completely obliterate the things that made it unique?
By The72John
June 20, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
good. I wasn’t doing that. But you have it wrong. It isn’t the people who like to say “Merry Christmas” that annoy me…it’s the ones who say that’s the only thing the rest of us should say.
Soooo funny and Soooo true. I don’t give a rat’s a* if someone says Happy Hannukah or Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. It’s the thought that counts. But the fundy types blow up with this “Don’t you KNOW I’m a CHRISTIAN!” attitude that’s just pathetic.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
Actually, it’s funny y’all bring up the “Happy-Whatever” thing…on a completely unrelated note, a woman to whom I offered my empty buggy at Wal-Mart Sunday morning wished me a Happy Father’s Day…even though there was no one with me looking like a child…
I did a double-take for sure.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
Don’t forget your hat and gloves and the Kleenex stuffed in your sleeve so you can dab the sweat off. hehehe… good advice RF! We can’t be forgetting the all important accessories! BTW…Granny said a lady never sweats. She glistens.
By Kyle
June 20, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
Mara - when i said in an earlier post, “when you sit back and stereotype” it wasn’t directed at you. i was simply editorializing b/c it seemed you all were getting such a kick out of your religious jokes. also, i would have to think its a very minute percentage of people who think we should ONLY say merry christmas - and i certianly disagree with those who take that stance. i just don’t want it to get to a point where “merry christmas” itself is taboo.
72John - if i missed something, sorry. it just seemed like you weren’t limiting any cracks to fundamentalists, but rather religious people in general. as i told mara earlier, i completely agree with the stance that fanatical religious funamentalists are CRAZY and quite often hypocrites in their hatred (maybe it didn’t use such strong language earlier).
RF - i have no doubt that this blog is usually full of stereotyping and poloarizing comments from the other side of the aisle as well, it just seemed today that it was tilting a little to far to one side
-btw, you guys might find this interesting. i don’t even go to church, at least not that often. this blog was putting me to sleep (dreaming of pudding pops, no doubt) so i decided to pick an argument that would keep me (and hopefully a few of you) entertained for the rest of the day - don’t kill me tomorrow - lol
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
the fundy types blow up with this “Don’t you KNOW I’m a CHRISTIAN!” How would one know that one person is a christian and another is a wiccan? The only way to know for sure would be for everyone to have to wear some type of identifier, but that is getting to close to the memories of Nazi Germany when Jews had to wear the Yellow Star of David and Homosexuals the Pink Triangle. I could also see the fundies claiming that they were being persecuted for being Christian for having to wear a cross. To which we could respond…”That’s your cross to bear.” (grin)
John..do you look like a ‘Daddy?’
By Billy
June 20, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
Yeah, Kyle, it’s not that people say “Merry Christmas”, but that everyone gets theri panties in a bunch when a private company tells its employees they should say “happy holidays” to avoid offending non-Christians and non-religious people. That’s perfectly acceptable. It’s like a dress code. If you don’t like it, get another job. I mean, the economy’s doing so well under Bush’s watch that that shouldn’t be difficult in the least, right?
By The72John
June 20, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this
RF - i have no doubt that this blog is usually full of stereotyping and poloarizing comments from the other side of the aisle as well, it just seemed today that it was tilting a little to far to one side
Huh? Our discussions of Jello pudding and whether Rugby or Soccer was more brutal was tilting to the left? OH, no, wait. Obviously, mentioning a civil union being disolved and radical Christians protesting the judge as evil is “leftist”. Forgive me.
By Julia
June 20, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
Kyle-You need to understand that it’s not ok to bash anything other than Christians on this blog. It’s perfectly ok to stereotype Christians and start making fun of them. Nothing you say will change that. Just accept it for what it is. it doesn’t bother me anymore because I try not to stereotype others.
By The72John
June 20, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
John..do you look like a ‘Daddy?’
Man, my hair is thinning but I don’t look like a “Daddy”! I’m only 34 for heaven’s sake! I look like your average guy-next-door type. You know, clipper-cut hair, clean shaven, khaki shorts or jeans and t-shirts or polos when I’m not at work.
By Netbanker
June 20, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this
Kyle…I thought it was obvious that you were ‘picking a fight’ on purpose just to liven things up. But all will definitely be forgiven if you hand out a few of those pudding pops we’ve been discussing!
Have a good night all and thanks for helping me waste part of my day!!
By Mara
June 21, 2006 07:52 AM | Link to this
Julia - you’ve been a regular long enough to know that the only ones who get bashed are the ones who believe that they have some kind of right or duty to tell the rest of us how we should live, who we should love, and that any other religious belief but theirs is a lie and sham. The “holier-than-thou” hypocrits that preach the gospel but don’t live it. The ones who just know that anyone who isn’t just like them is bound for the fiery pit. The ones who insist that they know what god wants, and mostly it seems that what “he” wants is women in the kitchen, the gays in the closet, and the liberals in Hell.
Now tell me…how could anyone keep from mocking that attitude?
By Thoughts
June 21, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
Did Julia just stereotype herself as a Persecution Complex Christian? (PCC)
By Persecuted Christian
June 21, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this
Why do people hate Christians so much? All we want to do is make sure that everyone accepts Jesus as their personal savior, just like they should! We’re just trying to help you understand that if you aren’t right with the Lord, you’ll burn in Hell, and we want to save you from that!
When we tell you to get shed of your sinful life it’s because we care enough about you that we want to see you in Heaven. If we try to stop the gays from destroying marriage, it’s because Jesus won’t come back and save us all if the homosexuals have legal rights. If we try to stand up for decency in broadcasting, it’s because programs that don’t hold up Jesus will make God send more hurricanes.
I don’t understand why y’all don’t let us bring Jesus into your lives. You must be unhappy people to reject your Lord like that. Quit hating Christians!
By Kyle
June 21, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
72John - in reference to your 4:54 post yesterday; i think you may have missed something if you really think i was refering to the sports talk and pudding pops - as for the civil union being disolved, i don’t even understand the “radical christians” argument with the judge’s actions (i don’t really see any action they would have rather the judge taken?)
-to clear things up for you, i was talking about the stereotyping of religious people - which was being done, and it was all coming from one side, hence “one sided”
By The72John
June 21, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this
-to clear things up for you, i was talking about the stereotyping of religious people - which was being done, and it was all coming from one side, hence “one sided”
Maybe you need to re-check your definition of “stereotyping”. Since I was responding to a specific statement made by a specific religious group, I hardly think I could be accused of stereotyping.
And frankly, I don’t give a s** if you think I’m stereotyping or not. Not a day goes by that I don’t pick up a newspaper and see some Christian fanatic a***** writing about why I am fundamentaly less deserving to live in this country. So you can take your “one-sided” BS and stick in up your almost assuredly ample derriere.
By Julia
June 21, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this
what “he” wants is women in the kitchen, the gays in the closet, and the liberals in Hell.
If you’re referring to what God wants then you are very wrong. If you think that’s what I want then you’re also wrong. And if you think most Christians want that then you’re wrong yet again.
Now there are extreme people in the world who claim to be Christian and claim to “speak for God”. These types probably agree with your idea of Christianity.
But it’s like I said Friday-just because a person GOES to church doesn’t make them a Christian. It’s like going to McDonald’s doesn’t make you a quarter pounder! LOL
I understand you have a problem with SOME of the people to CLAIm to be Christian. But regardless of the media’s portrayal of a few extreme people most Chistians do NOT want anyone to go to hell, do not think women belong in the kitchen and do not hate gay people or want them in any “closet”. Just my 2 cents.
By Kyle
June 21, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
Billy - to your post at the end of the day yesterday; i would have to disagree, it don’t think its like a dress code. are non-religious or non-christian people really offended when people say merry christmas? i’m not at all offended when people say happy hannakah or happy kwanza - or when people say happy holidays. but that’s not the point. when companies are doing things that just isn’t right, the answer is not to just walk away and get a new job (even if one could in this economy). if a woman is sexually harassed or a minority is discriminated against, they should call the company on its wrongdoings. the point is that the places of employment shouldn’t be telling their employees that they can’t say merry christmas. i thought most of you guys were against censorship? you say its so nobody gets offended. so i guess your telling me that its possible that someone might be offended by someone identifiying themselves with a particular faith in public, and we should avoid that. well we certianly wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) tell a muslim woman to not wear her traditional muslim clothing to work or in public, or tell a jewish person they can’t wear a yamika (sp?)- but that’s an expression of their religion in public and at work.
-72John - your an easy one to get worked up on this issue - if your previous posts were talking about a particular statement, actually made by a particular group, OBVIOUSLY i wasn’t talking about you. for the hundredth time, i was talking about the religous jokes that were being thrown around, and they were hardly directed at a particular person, or something that actually happened. if you have come in contact with people that say you are less deserving to live in this country, then those particular people are fanatics, and i disagree with them. but i do have a question for you, and i’m not being sarcastic. does the term “christian” and “fanatic” go hand in hand in your eyes? or do you think you can be one, without being the other?
By The72John
June 21, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
the point is that the places of employment shouldn’t be telling their employees that they can’t say merry christmas
Do you have evidence that supports this? Or are you just relying on the indignant cries of the fundies who manufactured the nonsense of the “War on Christmas”?
A service-based company asking its employees to use religion-neutral holiday greetings when working with a decidedly multi-cultural public does not equate to forbiding people to say Merry Christmas.
i thought most of you guys were against censorship?
Censorship is imposed by governments. Private companies have the right to require certain behaviors from their employees during the performance of their job duties. It is not an assault on Christianity to ask an employee to say “Happy Holidays” to one’s customers, it is a way of acknowledging and including ALL of one’s customers rather than running the risk of excluding some.
your an easy one to get worked up on this issue
Yep. Sure do. When a group of people has been gunning for you and everyone like you your whole life, you tend to get a chip on your shoulder. They attack me on a daily basis, and if I attack back, people like you have the gall to accuse me of being “one sided”.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this
but i do have a question for you, and i’m not being sarcastic. does the term “christian” and “fanatic” go hand in hand in your eyes? or do you think you can be one, without being the other
Missed this.
No. Yes. Unfortunately, the groups that are dominating the spheres of political influence at the moment are fanatics and they are trying to establish theocracy in this country.
By Mara
June 21, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this
Julia - I make no claim to know what “god* wants, but there are people who do. Isn’t it amazing that the idea that man was made in gods image to some people means that he must hate the same things they do? What seems to have been missed, by both you and Kyle, is that I was talking about this particular type of “christian”. It isn’t my idea of what a christianity is…it’s theirs. But then, you are just as guilty of assuming that you know what god wants as they are.
“If you’re referring to what God wants then you are very wrong”
You, of course, know what God does or does not want. Lucky for the rest of us that your version of God is a lot more reasonable than, say, Roy Moore’s or Ralph Reed’s.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
hey guys. why do they call it the “World Cup” when really it’s just the play-offs, semi-finals, or what-have-you? Shouldn’t they wait til the cup is actually on the line before touting it as the World Cup? Isn’t it kinda like calling post-season football the “Super Bowl” or the hockey playoffs as the “Stanley Cup”. It just seems weird…
The reason it is called the World Cup is because the tournement that is going on right now is considered the “finals.” All of the teams that are in Germany had to qualify in a series of regional playoffs, so in that sense the entire competition in Germany is the final.
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this
Well good morning all! Seems like everyone needs to pretend that they are in Elementary School and getting ready to cross the street…let’s all STOP, LOOK, and LISTEN. A couple of cleansing breaths wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
I’m not sure where the communication breakdown is occuring, but we all seem to be on the same page here regarding fanatics being merely a subset of people of a faith and not being representative of the general beliefs of that faith. The two are mutually exclusive ideas and I’ve heard every regular here say so.
Maybe we just need a blanket understanding that poking fun at a particular religion is always directed at the fanatical fringe even if not expressly stated because they always seems to be the sub-group that spouts ideas or statements that a reasonable person of the same faith finds outrageous or offense just as much as those who do not share that faith do.
Personally, I find the whole MerryHappyBlessed ChristmaHanaKwanzicaWinterSolstice thing to be quite stupid. What difference does it make if the greeting you recieve isn’t the one of your particular religious persuasion when the person offering it is basically saying ‘blessings to you in this season of celebration?’ If you are offended then you’ve got one petty little God and a twisted sense of faith if you can’t graciously recieve being wished good things by someone else!!
I really think the driver to all these misunderstandings is fear of change and a movement away from people’s comfort zones. For most of our country’s history the majority of immigrants have shared a common basis of faith…christianity. Now that we have a more diverse population that have different faiths sharing a common root tracing it’s way back to Judiasm, but those faiths celebrate slightly different holy days at roughly the same time of year people are uncomfortable. They more acutely feel the lack of homogenous population that is an overlooked source of comfort. Have you ever noticed that there really has never been the same level of outcry about religions that don’t share the same holy seasons?
Let’s just take today as a good example of my theory. It’s the Summer Solstice which has great significance for Wiccans and Druids, but not for Jews, Christians, or Islamics. Any outcries? Any whining or changing of corporate policies? Anyone getting offended? Of course not! What about during the Jewish Celebrations of Rosh Hoshana or Yom Kippur? Nope, no newspaper articles about the Christian faith being persecuted then either. Christian protests or worry during Ramadan? Not that I’ve seen. It’s only at the convergence of Christmas, Hannuka, Kwaanza, Winter Solstice, and potentially EID that people get their religious undies twisted up.
Personally, this just reinforces my position that if you can’t accept well wishes and blessings from someone of a different faith during their periods of religious celebration then your faith is weak, your God is impotent, and you are no where near living up to the common directive of all religions “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
By The72John
June 21, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this
The reason it is called the World Cup is because the tournement that is going on right now is considered the “finals.” All of the teams that are in Germany had to qualify in a series of regional playoffs, so in that sense the entire competition in Germany is the final.
I’m just sad that there will be no leprachauns or veelas performing in the final game. What is Quidditch coming to these days…
By Mara
June 21, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
NetB - you, m’friend, just said a mouthful. I nominate you for semi-permanent ownership of the tiara, the scepter, and the velvet robe :^)
the best quote - if you can’t accept well wishes and blessings from someone of a different faith during their periods of religious celebration then your faith is weak, your God is impotent, and you are no where near living up to the common directive of all religions “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
HUZZAH!
By Mara
June 21, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Thanks, all y’all, for educating me (relatively speaking) about soccer. Lots that I don’t know…
By RF
June 21, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Personally, this just reinforces my position that if you can’t accept well wishes and blessings from someone of a different faith during their periods of religious celebration then your faith is weak, your God is impotent, and you are no where near living up to the common directive of all religions “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
Amen, brother (waving the funeral fan and dabbing at the glistening forehead)
What say we quit poking each other’s sore spots today and let this issue go?
Julia- don’t let it get to you. People like you prove that faith is an important part of people’s lives, not the brainwashing that the extremists make it seem.
By RF
June 21, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
Mara- Net’s the only one on the blog with enough shoes to make that outfit work! ;-)
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
Do you think veelas would affect a gay man/wizzard the same way they affect straight ones? Or would we just be critiquing their hair and outfits?
By Lobo
June 21, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
To “Persecuted Christian”: Y’know, it’s really kind of funny, but if you just substitute the proper nouns “Moslem” and “Islam” for “Christian” and “Christianity”, and the name “Allah” for “Jesus”, your screeds are almost word-for-word copies of the nonsense that one reads and hears all the time from militant Islamist mullahs.
And the notion that Christians are somehow being “persecuted” in this country is silly beyond the ability of most minds to cope with. You might just as reasonably argue that Sunni Moslems are being “persecuted” in Saudi Arabia, or that the government of Israel is “persecuting” Jews!
After all, despite the Constitution’s strict prohibition against it, we most certainly have a de facto religious test for office with the voting public: only self-professed Christians and Jews need apply! (Can you even imagine how far a self-professed Moslem, Buddhist, Wiccan or atheist would get in any contest for anything from county dogcatcher to president of the United States?)
By The72John
June 21, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this
Or would we just be critiquing their hair and outfits?
Do I have to explain yet again that I don’t care about hair or outfits? Geeze, talk about stereotyping…;-)
By Persecuted Christian
June 21, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
Lobo, you are in danger of losing your soul! You need to realize that Jesus loves you and if you don’t accept that love you will not be with Him after you die. Instead you will experience the torments of hell and I want you to be in Heaven.
The US is a CHRISTIAN nation founded on CHRISTIAN beliefs, so the idea of a islamic person in office is just wrong - surely you can see that. Jesus wants us to vote for HIM in everything we do and to make sure that HE is glorified in the government.
The atheist minority wants to take Christmas (thank you for pointing that out Kyle) and take the 10 Commandments out of our courts. That is how we are bein persecuted in our own country.
By Stephen Colbert
June 21, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this
The atheist minority wants to take Christmas
Athiest minority, you’re on notice!
By Jack
June 21, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Julia. Your 2 cents are worth way more than that. :)
By Kyle
June 21, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
well said Netbanker - how come the rest of us couldn’t get that across to each other in less than a day’s time?
By Persecuted Christian
June 21, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
Thank you for your support, Stephen.
By Archie
June 21, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
“Maybe we just need a blanket understanding that poking fun at a particular religion is always directed at the fanatical fringe even if not expressly stated because they always seems to be the sub-group that spouts ideas or statements that a reasonable person of the same faith finds outrageous or offense just as much as those who do not share that faith do.”
Hello Netbanker, at least you come right out and say you’re poking fun at the fanatical fringe. There are some religious people that do accept gays and those people go to church each Sunday. This week’s topic question is weak but at least there’s no male versus female bashing.
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
Thanks Mara, but I don’t see that I stated anything that isn’t just common sense and courtesy. When someone more or less says “Peace and Blessings to you” the appropriate responses are “Thank You” and/or “The same to you.” Of course, good manners seem to be the exception these days.
I think that the other big source of discomfort is that as religious diversity grows we are truly being tested in our upholding of the founding ideal of equality which means that the displays of the Christian faith on public property during Christmas must either stop or be equally shared by the other religions with celebrations during that time. Traditions are hard to give up and change is frightening for most people. How many times have each of us heard “But we’ve always done it like this?” It can feel like an attack when you are told that you can no longer do X or Y. We are comfortable with things staying the way they are and we, by nature, do NOT like to share. Generally, the older one is the harder it is to deal with these changes because for as long as they can remember we said Merry Christmas and schools had Christmas pagents, etc. Now those people who are different (and they even LOOK different than us) have come in and we have to change to accomodate them and we don’t like it! (stamp foot) THEY should change because most of us like it the way it was and it’s the tradition! (hands on hips) The sad thing is that most of these same folks would describe themselves as patriotic Americans yet their very actions and attitudes are a total denouncement of “with Liberty and Justice for ALL” as well as our system of government which is supposed to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority through the application of popular will.
By Jack
June 21, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
I watched the tape I made of the news coverage as the events on 9/11 happened. Everyone should see it again to remind us what/who we are up against. This country needs to be united or we will fall.
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this
Stephen and Persecuted,
You’ve got it ALL wrong! Let me introduce you to my motto (which almost ALWAYS proves true) “Follow the MONEY!” It’s the retailers and businesses that want to take Christmas, not the athiests! And they pretty much have! Look at how it’s changed from ‘Peace on Earth, Goodwill toward Men’ to brawling for X-boxes at WalMart. Look at the overwhelming commercialization and marketing campaigns to drive SALES and make people feel less than if they don’t spend GOBS of MONEY they don’t have in the first place on people they don’t really care about to give them overpriced STUFF they don’t really need. It’s not athiests or any other religion that has “Taken the Christ out of Christmas” It’s BIG BUSINESS!! Think about it. Besides what would an athiest do with a religious holiday anyway when they don’t believe in religion?
Could you give me a single shred of proof or maybe a document that supports your supposition of our being founded on christian beliefs? Let’s see it’s not in the charters for the colonies, or the Declaration of Indepence, or the Constitution and it’s specifically stated that we are NOT a christian nation in the Treaty of Tripoli which was passed unanimously by Congress. So where does this notion come from when there is no historical support yet plenty to the contrary?
RF…I gotta tell you I’m being sooooo good on packing for my trip. I’ve limited myself to ONE pair of athletic shoes, ONE pair of sandals, and ONE pair of dress shoes. Of course after hitting the sample sales in the garment district I figure that I’ll need room for some new acquisitions.
Yeah, yeah John…but you didn’t answer whether a veela would be enough to turn you straight! ;)
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
that’s Declaration of Independence, but I’m sure all y’all knew what I meant rather than typed
By Billy
June 21, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
I watched the tape I made of the news coverage as the events on 9/11 happened. Everyone should see it again to remind us what/who we are up against. This country needs to be united or we will fall.
What does that have to do with anything? You want us to unite under Jesus Christ, the only son of God, Savior to all who know and believe in Him?
Yeah…
By Billy
June 21, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
straight guy knocks on window Umm, excuse me…but what’s a “veela”?
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
Billy must be pure muggle.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
I do know who we’re up against, Jack. The question is - do you? Do you ever take a break from the news about Iraq to read about the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan? You know, that country that we left after a few weeks there in favor of pursuing a personal vendetta of George Bush? You remember the Taliban, right Jack? The ultra-fundamentalist Islamic regime that murdered women in the streets because they weren’t wearing head scarves, or killed musicians because “Allah hates music”.
I remember daily what we’re up against, and that why the policies of this administration disgust me. The real question is why don’t they disgust YOU, Jack.
By Billy
June 21, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
Billy must be pure muggle.
Well that answers the question…
By The72John
June 21, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
straight guy knocks on window Umm, excuse me…but what’s a “veela”?
There these books out there called “Harry Potter”…you may have heard of them?
By Billy
June 21, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this
John, I’ve read them all, but I can’t for the life of me, remember anything regarding a “veela”…
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this
da mahvels of da intanet age: “Veela” (without having to read the Potter books) next is ‘muggle’ (urbandictionary perhaps? LOL)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_fairies
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this
Muggle: (also, without having to read the Potter books, apparently)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle
gotta love dat der intanet
By Mara
June 21, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this
Billy - to be helpful…a magical creature of myth. Akin to the sirens, nymphs, succubi, etc. Beautiful, deadly and mesmerizing.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this
Veelas were the dancing seductresses at the Quidditch Cup final game! Fleur Delacourt’s grandmother was also a Veela.
By Billy
June 21, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
Hmm.
By Jack
June 21, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
Veela. The guy with the fro on the home improvement network who’s first name is Bob. LOl
By Jack
June 21, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
Ever see that movie about the mermaid, “She Creature”? …she sure supprised those sailors at the end.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Look at the overwhelming commercialization and marketing campaigns to drive SALES and make people feel less than if they don’t spend GOBS of MONEY…
Huh? What? Did someone call me??
Oh, sorry…
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
LOL @ Vila
so veelas are like valkries?
By Stephen Colbert
June 21, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
Stephen and Persecuted,
You’ve got it ALL wrong!
My guy tells me you are ALL wrong, and that is much more useful than all your “facts.” I really feel like I am right. Netbanker, now you’re on notice!
By The72John
June 21, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this
so veelas are like valkries?
BZZZZT.
Valkyries are Norse warrior angels…they fly over battles and select those dead warriors worthy of entering Valhalla, the hall reserved in Asgard for the greatest of mortal heroes.
There, the warriors become einharjar, who battle each other all day until nothing but limbs liter their field of battle. At night, the einharjar put themselves back together and feast all night and drink mead.
At Ragnorak, the einharjar will fight with the Aesir and Vanir against the Jormungander, Fenris Ulf, Loki, the Jotun, and the assembled forces of Hel.
Sorry…I read WAY too much Norse mythology as a kid.
By lozen
June 21, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
Some of my favorite quotes from the past two days:
*Heck, you can tell ‘em “Happy Holidays” and they go all red-faced and foamy lipped…
They are about as sharp as a dull butter knife (not to be stereoptyping them or anything! LOL)
Persecution Complex Christian? (PCC)*
You people crack me up!
On the happy holidays thing: last xmas I was at the food court at the mall. The woman behind the counter gave the man and his son their food and said, “Happy Holidays.” He did a double-take, kind of glared at her and said, “Merry Xmas” really loud. She was oriental; he was black.
By Billy
June 21, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this
She was oriental; he was black.**
And an assh*le, evidently…
By Jack
June 21, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
Billie. What did my comment have to do with the lord? Tell me please oh Needle Dick.
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
thanks 72John, I knew you would be able to clarify that, and all I really knew about valkries was the Wagner opera piece. (and the jacket of the music had some fairie looking ladies…well angels, now that you mention it)
By Billy
June 21, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Jack, you comment didn’t have anything to do with anything. That was my point. The conversation started out about needle exchange programs, then shifted to pudding pops, and finally was about religion, at which time you posted this gem:
I watched the tape I made of the news coverage as the events on 9/11 happened. Everyone should see it again to remind us what/who we are up against. This country needs to be united or we will fall.
I ask again? What does that have to do with anything?
By Archie
June 21, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
“And an assh*le, evidently…”
Why does he have to be called a name? Lozen that’s a good story and I noticed you made no comment and since the NBA just finished, I will use this analogy that sometimes when a guy is bumped there is a no call made because no foul occurred. On the classic sports channels you will see guys get called for a foul for a minor touch and other guys are allowed to play through a bump. I am talking about basketball but basically I am saying Lozen’s story deserved a no-call. All of us aren’t going to agree and sometimes that might cause some glares,etc.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
thanks 72John, I knew you would be able to clarify that, and all I really knew about valkries was the Wagner opera piece. (and the jacket of the music had some fairie looking ladies…well angels, now that you mention it)
If I remember correctly, aren’t you Jewish?
How can you listen to Wagner! He was SO anti-semitic…
By GOB
June 21, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Archie - So if you said “Happy Holidays” to someone, and their response was to glare at you, and then say something else to prove a point, you would say that is a “no-call?”
By Billy
June 21, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
I called him a name because when the woman wished him “Happy Holidays” he got a bug up his arse about it. Hardly the Christian thing to do.
By Stephen Colbert
June 21, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
Here is a question that might spark some good ol’ American debate…
George W. Bush: Great President or The Greatest President?
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
72John - you remember incorrectly, fundamentalistically raised, rejected it when young. actually my parents were missionaries and made the misfortune of exposing us youngsters to too many Different ways of looking at things to be able to accept there was only ONE way. (not Jewish, in short. LOL).
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Why does he have to be called a name?
but basically I am saying Lozen’s story deserved a no-call. All of us aren’t going to agree and sometimes that might cause some glares,etc
Because when someone genuinely offers you kind words, it is rude to respond in the manner in which he responded. Why some random woman said “Happy Fathers Day” to me this weekend, I didn’t snarl back “I’m not a FATHER”. I took it in the spirit in which it was given.
Sorry, I can’t give this guy a pass. His snarling of “MERRY CHRISTMAS” is exactly indicative of what I brought up earlier, the “Don’t you KNOW I’m a CHRISTIAN” mentality.
If someone says something nice to you, then smile and accept it graciously, otherwise you are, in fact, an a*******hole.
By Mara
June 21, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
John - At least he’s listening to the original opera. Most of the rest of us only know the Ride of the Valkyrie from the Bugs Bunny cartoon. Still, it is a classic :^)
Any of you have accounts with AT&T? Be aware that they are changing their privacy policy. Under the new policy, in order to continue (or begin…) receiving service you must agree that your private info is not actually yours anymore. It will, henceforth, belong to AT&T to do with as they please, to share, sell, rent, or give away.
Just thought you’d like to know.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Don’t know why I thought that, Chil. Ah well.
By Lobo
June 21, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
Kyle-
<>
Have you ever REALLY had someone “frown” at you when you said “Merry Christmas” to him, or is that just another one of those things that you hear on rightwing radio, FOX News, Ann Coulter, etc, ,etc that “all liberals do”?
(And if someone really did, are you certain that his last name wasn’t “Scrooge”, and that he mumbled something about “humbug” in reply?)
I ought to compile a list of all the horrid things we liberals supposedly do, from “attacking God” to “hating America”!
My personal favorite, besides her claim that “Godless liberal traitors” are “lowering the tone of debate in this country!” (!), was Ms Coulter’s assertion, after 9-11, that “…every liberal in the country stood up and cheered, and insisted that America ‘got what it deserved’!”
The sad truth, of course, was that the only Americans to use those words (or anything even remotely like them) were conservative Republican icons the Reverends Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson!
My point? Simply that you really shouldn’t believe everything you read or hear!
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
How can you listen to Wagner! He was SO anti-semitic…
so that should affect his music? Actually some of the dislike may be because it was played in the camps.
how about GN&R being a bunch of junkies, mean the music is bad?(and MrBrownstone is my most fave of their’s) Rolling Stones for that matter.
or Jackson Browne’s music is bad because he beat Darryl Hannah? (Now I will agree his music is bad but not because of her).
just making a point, separating an artist’s personal views/actions of whateva from their art.
By Archie
June 21, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Archie - So if you said “Happy Holidays” to someone, and their response was to glare at you, and then say something else to prove a point, you would say that is a “no-call?”
To answer your question GOB, yes I would. Everybody does not have the same viewpoint. Maybe the guy was trying to say he was going to keep christmas in the holidays and I don’t find that offensive just as I don’t find the young lady offensive. I definitely don’t think he deserved to be called a name. He didn’t hit her and he didn’t curse her, he just expressed himself, big deal. Too much is made out that on both sides,conservative and liberal. I can tell stories about people black and white that gave me their opinion about morality,etc when I didn’t ask for it. I have used both overt and subtle methods to tell them off but the story as Lozen wrote it deserved a no-call.
By Justin
June 21, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Sorry…I read WAY too much Norse mythology as a kid.
Well that certainly explains ALOT 72 John! It certainly does.
By Archie
June 21, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
“If someone says something nice to you, then smile and accept it graciously, otherwise you are, in fact, an a*hole.”
You might not know what’s going on with a person thus sometimes there may not be anything to add. As we have been saying for weeks now you can say something nice to a woman but you might not get a nice response. Heck, I have said good morning and got glared at but then I don’t what went on with that person. Usually it’s a woman that does that but I continue to speak and sometimes the woman in question will speak nicer to next time around.
By Julia
June 21, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
Chilao-GNR used to be one of my fave groups! Tried 3 times to see them in concert but never made it.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
Well that certainly explains ALOT 72 John! It certainly does
Yes, you moron, it explains why I am so much better educated than you are.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
just making a point, separating an artist’s personal views/actions of whateva from their art.
Wagner’s anti-semitism was incorporated thematically into his operas, that’s the difference.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
The difference Archie is that the girl was trying to be polite, and the guy was rude to her in return. How is the guy not an a*?
By Billy
June 21, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
Archie, the guy deserves to be called names every bit as much as that girl needed his response to her heart-felt well-wishes. He could’ve responded, “Why, thank you! And Merry Christmas,” if ne for dome reason felt the need to assert that he’s a supposed Christian. Not responding at all would even be more acceptable than his reaction to her. Unless he has a cross prominently displayed on his person, he cannot expect everyone to assume that he’s Christian. Which he isn’t, because Jesus would never have acted that way.
By Billy
June 21, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
You might not know what’s going on with a person thus sometimes there may not be anything to add. As we have been saying for weeks now you can say something nice to a woman but you might not get a nice response. Heck, I have said good morning and got glared at but then I don’t what went on with that person. Usually it’s a woman that does that but I continue to speak and sometimes the woman in question will speak nicer to next time around.
That doesn’t mean they weren’t assh*les the first time around…
By Justin
June 21, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
Yes, you moron, it explains why I am so much better educated than you are.
Being “educated” in Norse mythology does not mean a hill of beans in the REAL world-now does it? So, you’re educated in fairy tales? (Well, I guess that DOES fit now doesn’t it!)
HAHA
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
Most of the rest of us only know the Ride of the Valkyrie from the Bugs Bunny cartoon.
as opposed to the movie Apocalypse Now?..LMAO
I only hear the Music and don’t speak any foreign languages so it would be all German to me. LOL
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this
Jack…LOL at your 1:05 about Bob.
Ohhhh my…We can’t have all those pesky verifiable FACTS and historical documents getting in the way of actually being right because one feels like they’re right and some ‘guy’ told you so. Right, Stephen? Who is this ‘guy’ and how do you know he’s not making things up and merely pulling your leg? What exactly am I ‘on notice’ of or for and what the heck does that mean?
Billy…Year 4…The Goblet of Fire.
Hi Lozen!!
John…have you read Douglas Adams’ Long Dark Teatime of the Soul? No Valkyries, but they do go to Valhalla.
Chilao…my parents were missionaries and made the misfortune of exposing us youngsters to too many Different ways of looking at things to be able to accept there was only ONE way All that darn knowledge and information! Too bad it’s probably led you to be a spiritual person who more likely lives many of the lessons rather than blindly staying on the narrow path of ‘our way or HELL!’ superiority. Seriously though, it’s kind of sad to think that your parents believe you won’t make it to their verson of Heaven when the truth is you’ve got a better handle on the message of love, respect for your fellow humans, and the realization that something bigger than all of us is going on without placing limits on that something than do most of the most fervent believers. I experience this with my own parents, but have come to realize that is their concern and issue not mine.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
Being “educated” in Norse mythology does not mean a hill of beans in the REAL world-now does it? So, you’re educated in fairy tales? (Well, I guess that DOES fit now doesn’t it!)
Actually, being broadly educated DOES mean a hill of beans in the REAL world. And so does my MBA.
If you actually had an education you would also know that MYTHOLOGY and FAIRY TALES are separate things, and you would realize that the MYTHOLOGIES of our precursor cultures figure heavily into much of our current pop culture.
Justin, why don’t you go back to sniveling about how your ex-wife emasculated you and took away your children. You at least have that routine down-pat. Your current attempts at put-downs are weak and pathetic. Much like you.
By lozen
June 21, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
How can any christian (fundy or otherwise) believe they know what Yahweh wants as far as family values? Some of his favorite guys like Solomon and David had many wives and concubines. Abraham had one wife I guess but he also had concubines. Adam only had one wife (as far as we know). Jesus didn’t have any wife, as far as we know. The disciples left their wives and children to follow jesus so where once they had wives, then they had none. Paul said it would be good for men to have no wife, like him, but if it kept a man from burning to have a wife it was okay. Noah had one. How many did Moses have? So how can a christian know what’s right: one wife, many wives, concubines, no wife, or have a wife but leave her when Yahweh appears and says, “Follow me”? Also there are no prohibitions in Yahweh’s word (the bible) to prohibit rape or slavery so I guess people could argue that those things are okay. What does Yahweh want? Good question.
By Justin
June 21, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
because Jesus would never have acted that way.
Watch it buddy, how do YOU know how Jesus would have acted? Kind of like saying you know what God thinks or likes isn’t it? …I’m just sayin’…
By Mara
June 21, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Just wait. Soon we’ll be hearing “He called him an A-hole just for saying Merry Christmas!
By GOB
June 21, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Justin - A word of advice…Last week when you started with the gay stereotypes, and John responded in kind, you lost. I seem to remember you actually threatening him. You might want to avoid that situation again. It didnt turn out so well for you.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
Ohhhh my…We can’t have all those pesky verifiable FACTS and historical documents getting in the way of actually being right because one feels like they’re right and some ‘guy’ told you so. Right, Stephen? Who is this ‘guy’ and how do you know he’s not making things up and merely pulling your leg? What exactly am I ‘on notice’ of or for and what the heck does that mean?
Net - This was actually just me playing around. You should watch The Colbert Report on Comedy Central sometime. It is good stuff. I wasnt being serious at all.
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
Justin…before you discount what matters in the “REAL” world one never knows when some seemingly useless fact or bit of knowledge will come in handy. What about the guy who won all that money on Jeopardy? That was in the real world wasn’t it?
Easy on Archie there kids. He does have a valid point. Haven’t we all been less than pleasant to someone else who didn’t deserve it when we were in a bad mood or were having a rotten day? Funny thing about as shole, huh? Not only do we all have one, but guaranteed that we’ve all BEEN one and to someone who didn’t deserve it.
By Archie
June 21, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
“Which he isn’t, because Jesus would never have acted that way.”
Billy you don’t know that the guy isn’t a christian because of that one response. No one here has ever said a christian is perfect. Once again you don’t know what people are going through. Jesus would not use the term a***** either.
GOB, I appreciate your question. I will answer your question by saying I reserve the term a***** for something stronger than a glare and the words “Merry Christmas”. Some sound almost as bad as they claim Chuck and other fundamentalists do. If there’s a perfect human being on this blog please show all of us how to live. As for rudeness I experience it often and I basically just ignore the people because some of them mean no harm they are just people.
I run into people that tell me I am going to hell because I go to the pool hall and people say I should not go to any night club without my spouse and I had better not ever smile too long at another woman otherwise some folk say I have violated my vows, so that’s why I say no call to somethings because some of those people are the ones that will come visit me when I am sick and they might do somethings for me when I am down so I take the good with the parts I don’t like.
By lozen
June 21, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
72John, don’t you just love it when guys tell you (and this has happened more than once on this blog I believe) that your knowledge about many, many things doesn’t mean anything in the real world? What good is knowing Norse mythology in the REAL world? REAL world, what a concept! Don’t you know if education doesn’t lead to being able to buy more stuff, it’s not important? You Renaissance man!
By The72John
June 21, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
Net - This was actually just me playing around. You should watch The Colbert Report on Comedy Central sometime. It is good stuff. I wasnt being serious at all.
Yeah, and I was Persecuted Christian. I was actually going to try to drag it out a while, but no one rose to the bait.
By Lobo
June 21, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this
“Lobo, you are in danger of losing your soul!”
Whatever becomes of my soul, it is mine, and neither yours nor the government’s to “save” for me.
“The US is a CHRISTIAN nation founded on CHRISTIAN beliefs”
Such as…?
“so the idea of a islamic person in office is just wrong - surely you can see that.”
Sorry, but I’m afraid I see just what our nation’s Founding Fathers saw: that a person’s religious beliefs—or lack thereof—are his own business, and have no place whatsoever in his ability or qualification to hold office, as long as he doesn’t use that office to push those beliefs on me or use my government to support or further his beliefs. (And that goes for ANY belief system, be it Christianity, Islam, Atheism, or whatever!)
“Jesus wants us to vote for HIM in everything we do and to make sure that HE is glorified in the government.”
The Constitution aside, Jesus said that WHERE, exactly…? And you know where Jesus stands on every issue, and which candidates He endorses, HOW, exactly…?
“The atheist minority wants to take Christmas (thank you for pointing that out Kyle) and take the 10 Commandments out of our courts.”
I wasn’t aware that Christmas was even part of our Court system. And, to my knowledge, none of the Framers of our Constitution (the people who took religion and it’s symbols out of our government, including our Courts, were “atheists” (though many of them were Deists).
By Justin
June 21, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
you’ve got a better handle on the message of love, respect for your fellow humans
Surely you’re NOT talking about the guy called “72 John” on THIS blog are you? Because if you are-then that’s about the funniest freaking thing I’ve ever heard!!! Seriously, stop it…you’re making me spew my soda all over the computer screen!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
By Mara
June 21, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
lozen - So how can a christian know what’s right: one wife, many wives, concubines, no wife, or have a wife but leave her when Yahweh appears and says, “Follow me”?
Exactly! Interesting story about Abraham and his concubine, by the way. Hagar was Sarahs handmaid, which she gave to Abraham to play around with. Well, Hagar ended up getting preggers which p** Sarah off so she abused the girl badly. Hagar ran away but eventually came crawling back. She birthed a son, Ishmael. Sarah and Abraham, (being the good god-fearing people they were) tossed ‘em out on their butts. Ishmael eventually grows up and becomes known as one of the prophets of Allah and helps found the faith of Islam.
By lozen
June 21, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this
Heeeeyyyy Net! “….something bigger than all of us is going on without placing limits on that something than do most of the most fervent believers.” I know that’s the truth!
By GOB
June 21, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
John - I figured that you were “Persecuted.” I tried to help bait the hook, but I guess I was a little too good…
By lozen
June 21, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this
well, well, well. Justin was making gay sterotypes and 72John showed him up when they got into a tiff. I wish I’d been here for that. What day last week? Lobo what did you say that got censored?
By Mara
June 21, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
That wasn’t it, GOB (though you are too good…) Just that alot of us have seen the Colbert Report (or the old Daily Show) so recognized the satire.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
well, well, well. Justin was making gay sterotypes and 72John showed him up when they got into a tiff. I wish I’d been here for that. What day last week?
I think it was Thursday or Friday. It was entertaining to say the least.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Surely you’re NOT talking about the guy called “72 John” on THIS blog are you
Once again, you fail at the internet. In no way, shape, form or fashion was this comment directed towards me. Did you fail reading comprehension as well as critical thinking?
Poor widdle guy.
By Netbanker
June 21, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
Got me GOB! I have little time for TV so Comedy Central hasn’t been on my screen in ages. Lately it seems like I’m finally sitting down at 10pm and by the time I finish with the mail and reading a few other things it’s bed time so I can start all over again by 7am the next morning. My partner keeps trying to tell that these are the years when we work hard to guarantee our retirements. I kind of yearn for the old days when we lived in an apartment, didn’t have jack diddly, but seemed to spend a lot more time doing fun stuff.
By RF
June 21, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Mara- I always love hearing the scandals in the Bible. Makes a lot of the sins modern christianity preaches against look rather simple. Of course, one would have to actually consider the whole story and the historical context of it, which many extremists wouldn’t know how to do if you showed them.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
That wasn’t it, GOB (though you are too good…) Just that alot of us have seen the Colbert Report (or the old Daily Show) so recognized the satire.
I figured most of this group would have seen it at least once or twice. The Colbert Report is the best show on TV right now. And thank you for the compliment.
By Betty Cocker
June 21, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
How about a discussion on whipped cream and it’s various uses?
It just seems that everyone is bored and needs a new topic.
So, what’s your favorite use for whipped toppings? Hmmmm….it may get censored though.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
well, well, well. Justin was making gay sterotypes and 72John showed him up when they got into a tiff. I wish I’d been here for that. What day last week? Lobo what did you say that got censored?
Basically, Justin spouted out some BS “gay men are all women” kind of comment, so I responded with some rather basic racial stereotypes. I then posted specifically that I was intentionally using stereotypes as a response to Justin’s own use of them.
He then blew his stack, threatened me, and then decided that I actually am a racist. He makes this conclusion based on the fact that stereotyping came “Too easy” to me.
Well, apparently at least a FEW people thought that Persecuted Christian was real…maybe I’m a decent actor-on-paper, hmm?
By Billy
June 21, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
Justin, saying that Jesus wouldn’t have acted a certain way and claiming to know what God wants are two totally different things. One is a supernatural entity. There is no evidence to support or deny his existence other than the ramblings of some old men who have been dead a long time. They claim he spoke to them, but who knows — they may have been schizophrenic.
The other was a man whose words and actions were documented by other men. Based on those actions as documented, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that, no, Jesus never would have acted that way.
By Justin
June 21, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Billy-Good answer. That’s the one I was looking for. Thanks.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
C’mon Net - you’ve got to watch Colbert. At least two of our “illustrious” congressmen from Georgia have made asses of themselves on the show.
Last week, Lynn Westmoreland went on and on and on about how important the 10 Commandments are and why they should be in courthouses. So, then Colbert asks him to name them…
Have you ever seen a deer caught in headlights before?
By GOB
June 21, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this
Last week, Lynn Westmoreland went on and on and on about how important the 10 Commandments are and why they should be in courthouses. So, then Colbert asks him to name them…
Have you ever seen a deer caught in headlights before?
He only got 3 out of 10…Impressive…
Net - You get a wag of the finger for not watching.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
The best part was when he said “All of them?” and Colbert said “Yes”. And he repeated “You want me to name all of them” and Colbert just grinned and raised both hands with the fingers ready to start counting.
It was priceless.
My own Rep, Gingrey-the-goober, made quite an a* of himself as well.
By GOB
June 21, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
My own Rep, Gingrey-the-goober, made quite an a of himself as well.*
No kidding…I live in the fightin’ 11th too. My heart swelled that night.
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
So I guess Colbert was not able to get as far as to ask how it is that the Jews have the 7th day on a different day than the Catholics and many Protestants then? LMAO
30 percent of Republicans voted for the defrocked Divine Judge Roy Moore in his quest to be Alabama governor. scary….
By The72John
June 21, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
Oh, oh…and when Colbert asked him if he could think of any building more appropriate for the 10 Commandments to hang in, and Westmoreland said “No, I can’t”. To which Colbert replied: “You can’t think of ANY building more appropriate for the 10 Commandments”…
I get all giddy just remembering it.
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
30 percent of Republicans who voted in the recent Alabama Republican Primary at least.
By Leather Tuskadero
June 21, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this
You guys just need a good spanking.
By The72John
June 21, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
So I guess Colbert was not able to get as far as to ask how it is that the Jews have the 7th day on a different day than the Catholics and many Protestants then? LMAO
Don’t forget the Orthodox groups…
By lozen
June 21, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
I know Mara. I always thought Hagar and Ishmael were treated abominably by those good religious people too. Of course the feelings of slaves were never important, were they? Doubly so if that slave was female. One of the reasons why I am amazed that any woman could accept all that woman-hating myth as truth. I want to see this Colbert show. Bet it’s on cable huh?
By The72John
June 21, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
lozen, it is, but you can watch a lot of the good stuff on the Comedy Central website.
By Kyle
June 21, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
ok, so its a bit of a delayed response but here goes; Lobo, no i have never personally been frowned at for wishing someone merry christmas. in case i didn’t make it clear at the end of yesterday when i said that i hardly ever go to church and really just started the whole argument because the blog was a little dull at the time. i was playing devil’s advocate, perhaps a little too convincingly (perhaps i should’ve gone under an assumed name as a few others on this blog have done)
-72John, i was tempted to tell persecuted christian not to thank me for anything but something just didn’t feel right when the guy was throwing out such obvious nonsense. as it turns out, i should thank you i guess for linking me to such a clear example of a fanatic - good stuff though, and you did actually get a few people
By Chilao
June 21, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
Don’t forget the Orthodox groups
oh, that’s right, they do that Man-decided(Thank you, Chuck) worship day as well.
By Kyle
June 21, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this
…..and as for the guy who yelled merry christmas to the cashier in response to her happy holidays comment; maybe he isn’t an a*******hole, but he sure was acting like one
By Justin
June 21, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
Comedy Central….soooo, the atheists have their own cable channel now, huh?????? Too funny. Everything that comes out of an atheists mouth IS funny! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Kind of like 72John…the atheist fairy from Norse mythology…shotgun in his hand and tiara on his head! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
By
June 22, 2006 05:25 AM | Link to this
surveys commission zinc?patched Saracens sexed .
By Reason
June 22, 2006 07:43 AM | Link to this
There’s no such thing as atheists
By Lyrazel
June 22, 2006 08:05 AM | Link to this
Does anyone ever notice…or is it just me…how many women end up in waitress jobs in religions heavens? At last count I know of 7 religions that practice(d) the woman-as-heavens waitress/servant so far.
I also do not see Christmas as anything more than blitzkrieg of shopping. When the Christians stop patronizing shops that display pagan imagery (trees, lights, holly, mistletoe, santa, elves, the colors red (death or blood) & green (rebirth) and ceases to buy mass quantities of ludicrous and unnecessary items in the requirement of giving then I might listen. Right the retail industry is planning the next major holiday blitz for buyers. ALL stores will put Merry Christmas on all banners and promotional materials because of the stink last year concerning Happy Holidays. Considering how the ENTIRE retail industry calculates profits based on end-of-season sales, and considering the massive marketing campaigns all designed for consumers (not believers) you could NEVER convince me it is anything more than a mega-mall event with a definite lack of parking. Isnt it more crass to continue to declare it a religious holiday? The season of greed is more obligatory than heart-felt because you are required to give stuff even to your CEO boss and then they are EXPECTED to give you stuff, bonuses and gifts! Then there is the Christmas Party baccanalia….. It truly has been transformed and even those who do not participate are subjected to participation if they go to any public space or turn on a radio or receive mail. If I was a true believer I would take Christ OUT of Christmas and have a special non-retail observed day to celebrate his birth in earnest…
I can name 8 commandments/had to look up 2. Does it matter about the order?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this
Justin, Justin…you just aren’t good at this. I mean, you might as well have added “I’m rubber and you’re glue” - it would have elevated the maturity level of your insult to a fifth grade level.
Comedy Central is the “atheist’s” network because one of its stars makes fun of would-be theocrats? Is that the kind of polarized thinking that dominates your day?
And, really, we get it. You make fun of gay men by suggesting they are like women. VERY clever. VERY original. And just oozing with the stereotypes that got your chittlins in a bunch just last week.
I suggest you stick with “Mama” jokes. You’re probably better at those.
By Netbanker
June 22, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
Hey kids! It’s a death by meeting day today, but I just had to share this joke from my mother (also because I’ll be road tripping it North tomorrow)
A new young monk arrives at the monastery and is assigned to help the other monks copy the old canons and laws of the church by hand.
He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript. So, the new monk goes to the head abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up. In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.
The head monk, says, “We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son.” So, he goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscript is held in a locked vault that hasn’t been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go by and nobody sees the old abbot So, the young monk gets worried and goes downstairs to look for him.
He sees him banging his head against the wall, wailing, “We forgot the”R” “We forgot the “R”! “We forgot the “R”! “We forgot the “R”! His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying uncontrollably. The young monk asks the old abbot, “What’s wrong, father?”
With a choking voice, the old abbot replies, “The word is celebrate!”
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 09:36 AM | Link to this
never say an unkind word about comedy central. i am certianly not an atheist, and comedy central is one of my favorite channels. even their re-runs rock.
Lyrazel, meet scrooge, you two should get along nicely.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Justin, you make some really inane comments sometimes.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this
No, Kyle, she’s right. And if I’m not mistaken, the religious right used to get all upset with retailers about turning Christmas into a materialistic glut of consumerism. Now they get bugs up their asses if Target doesn’t have a crucifix on display.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this
Reason, you’re wrong. I am an atheist. I don’t believe in Yahweh. I don’t believe the bible is the word of a god; it’s a book of myths created by uneducated nomads who thought the earth was flat and women were inferior to men. I don’t know that a man named Yeshua even existed (there is no historical proof that he did) and I certainly don’t believe if he did exist that the jewish carpenter/rabbi has anything to do with me. I do not believe there’s some invisible somebody who cares what we do or how we live. I do believe there’s more going on here than what we know and that it’s a mystery. I love the mystery. But as for Yahweh, no way!
By Archie
June 22, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this
Lozen, credit goes to you for admitting outright that you’re an atheist. Now I know for sure why you make certain comments. At least you’re honest.
By RF
June 22, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
With a choking voice, the old abbot replies, “The word is celebrate!” ROFL
By The72John
June 22, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Lozen, credit goes to you for admitting outright that you’re an atheist. Now I know for sure why you make certain comments. At least you’re honest
LOL…why, because being an atheist is something to be ashamed of? Only in a society obsessed with religion would it be shameful to “admit” that you are an atheist.
I personally don’t know how I would define myself. I guess I’m more in the “I don’t know the truth, but I sure don’t believe that an intelligence or entity powerful and wise enough to create and maintain the universe would define itself in human terms or worry about something so petty as who loves whom” camp.
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
Ok, Billy, you two can think that she is right, but i for one think christmas is more than a mere “blitzkrieg of shopping…. [and] a mega-mall event with a definite lack of parking.” i also refuse to call the holiday season the “season of greed.” true, there is a lot of shopping and gift giving during this time of year, but that doesn’t mean that the season is only about material things. many people still see christmas as the time to celebrate christ’s birth and a time to be with family, and i’m not gonna downgrade this time of year simply b/c department stores make money off of it and some gifts are passed around - its more than that (in my opinion).
By Archie
June 22, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
72John, Lozen deserves credit because she is honest. My statement is purely a compliment to Lozen, because so many people aren’t honest about their beliefs religious or otherwise.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
Net, that’s a very good joke. And it very well could be true! 72John, I know that’s the truth! I have been awed and overwhelmed by the beauty of this world, the love I see and experience, the mystery of life. I’ve had some very “religious” experiences. That doesn’t make me believe in Yahweh or Yeshua or Allah or the bible. Those experiences may be where the word “grace” came from originally. I think life is miraculous. And I’m still an atheist.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
John, I believe that would make you an “agnostic”, just like me! I honestly don’t know if there is an all-powerful entity that created the universe, maybe yes, maybe no…but if there is, I doubt if it has time (or is that bored) to worry about who’s marrying who on one little insignificant ball of dirt orbiting a rather ordinary sun on the outer edge of a completely unremarkable galaxy.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
Thanks for the compliment Archie. Sometimes i can be too honest! It’s just the way I react and sometimes I regret it. recently a family member said to me, “I miss my mother on mother’s day and I know you do too.” I just reacted without thinking and said, “No, really I don’t.” Everyone looked so shocked and I realized people expect you to just be quiet about things like that or play the game. I wasn’t close to my mother; it was her example of hypocrisy and being so dishonest with herself and everyone else that helped me to decide I want to be an honest, truthful person! I do thank her for that.
By Justin
June 22, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
Ohhh, you mean like the flip-flopping done on here depending on which bloggers are here. When a black person is here you generally stop negative comments about black people. When someone like Julia is here you generally stop bad mouthing Christians. But when certain bloggers are not online you let it loose and just attack everything that does not suit your own beliefs.
72John is the exception-he attacks at any time no matter what.
And of course fathers can be attacked at ANY time by anyone. Because fathers are ALL bad right?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this
many people still see christmas as the time to celebrate christ’s birth and a time to be with family, and i’m not gonna downgrade this time of year simply b/c department stores make money off of it and some gifts are passed around - its more than that (in my opinion
Some people even see Christmas as a time to celebrate less concrete positive aspects of life. One doesn’t need to be a Christian or “celebrate Christ’s birth” to find the spirit of Christmas meaningful.
And I personally like giving gifts during Christmas - I don’t see anything wrong with gift-giving. It’s not like it’s new…festivals where gifts are exchanged are as old as human civilization. I agree that the obsession with Christmas shopping might have become a little extreme, but don’t see anything inherently evil about gift exchanging.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this
Hey lozen…do you have as much fun as I do baiting the christians with the anomolies and contradictions (or outright hypocrisies) of their religion? LOL!!! Religious people of all stripes take themselves waaaaay too seriously…seriously!
As the Greek (gay?) philosopher, Socrates, once said, “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
By Justin
June 22, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this
So Mara, you think you are too insignificant for God to care about you or even to know you? This explains ALOT!
By Kaka10678
June 22, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this
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By Billy
June 22, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
And of course fathers can be attacked at ANY time by anyone. Because fathers are ALL bad right?
No, Justin, just you, apparently.
I mean, honestly — as angry as you are? I don’t think it’d be good for kids to be around your for any great length of time.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
Justin, Mara thinks that it applies to you as well.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
Justin - I’m just not egotistical enough to think that anything powerful enough to create a whole universe in all its diversity would have much of an interest in who or what I was doing…if so, creating universes must not be as exciting as it sounds.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Justin, you just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper, don’t you?
When a black person is here you generally stop negative comments about black people. When someone like Julia is here you generally stop bad mouthing Christians. But when certain bloggers are not online you let it loose and just attack everything that does not suit your own beliefs.
Well, we don’t ever make negative comments about black people, so your first sentence is just…stupid. We continue to make negative comments about fundamentalists and fanatics even when Julia is around, so your second sentence is just…stupid. Most of us engage in reasonable discussion most of the time, and don’t “attack” anyone, so your third sentence is also…stupid.
72John is the exception-he attacks at any time no matter what.
Apparently your memory is as challenged as your critical thinking and reading comprehension. You attacked first, remember? You threw the first slur, and you can’t handle it that the gay guy not only struck back but has been handing you your a* on a verbal platter on a regular basis since. You can’t play the “I was attacked” card when you struck the first blow.
And of course fathers can be attacked at ANY time by anyone. Because fathers are ALL bad right?
NOW you’re getting back to your familiar territory. You’re awfully good at playing the victim. Now, this statement of yours is equally as stupid as the earlier ones, because I suspect most of us have nothing but respect for fathers.
YOU, on the other hand, don’t seem to have any of the qualities that would make you a good father. You are dull, rather stupid, whiney, obsessed with your own victimization, and apparently lacking in anything valuable that you could offer your son. I ask you again - WHY on earth do you think you DESERVED custody of your child? You wife, by your own confession, is better educated and makes more money.
Please, get over yourself. Abandon the thug culture to which, no doubt, you have devoted yourself and maybe one day you’ll get a shot at at least UNSUPERVISED visitation. Assuming your kid wants to see you.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this
Mara, you’re a smart lady IMO. When I try to get my mind around the universe & space, the infinite variety of creatures on this one planet, the beautiful mechanics of the human body and mind, I just can’t believe the simple folk tales of the jewish or christian or hindu or muslim versions of a god or gods. My atheism may be partially due to my love of science fiction! I understand why people need a god. Human beings seem to have always needed a god/s or goddesses of some kind.
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
72John - well said, couldn’t agree more
By Justin
June 22, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
72John, BITE ME!
Mara and Lozen need to hook up-they’d make a great couple. Two peas in a pod. They can sit around and talk about how insignificant they are and how they believe in NOTHING!
And for one to call the other “smart” doesn’t really say a whole heck of a lot now does it? HAHAHAHAHA
By Mara
June 22, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this
(blush…) thanks, lozen. And coming from a fellow respector of logic and reason…’tis sweet. I have yet to find a religion that, even by suspending the logic part of my mind, makes much sense. I suppose the closest would be one of the neo-pagan or Wicca beliefs. Short on rules, long on reverance.
BTW I, too, am a SciFi/Fantasy fan. Who’re your authors?
By lozen
June 22, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
Mara, some religious people don’t bother me at all. It’s the fundies I dislike so much because they are truly dangerous people. Why have we recycled back in religion to religious intolerance and violence in the name of God in the past two decades? IMO that is due to the rise of fundamentalism, in the Muslim world, Israel and America. Bill Moyers put it so well, “The chaotic events of the world have fueled a yearning for certainty, and fundamentalism is nothing if not certain — it offers propositions that can be affixed as bumper stickers; it gives people sound bites to which they can assent. It’s a life jacket in a stormy sea, solid ground in the earthquake of life. Furthermore, if you believe a sacred text is literally the word of God, you don’t need any other proof. And you don’t want to waste time with people who disagree with you. You know God’s mind — who are they to stand in your way? Around the world, fundamentalism is waging war against the imagination — against creativity, freedom (freedom of the mind, above all), and against the tolerance that is necessary if people of different beliefs are to live together.”
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Mara, you make a good logical point with your “egotistical mindset” comment. I’ve been trying to think of a good concrete logical rebuttal to that statement, but i came up with nothing. but then it occured to me, religion isn’t based on scientific, concrete, logical facts - its based on faith. you said it yourself, and i agree, there is no tangible evidence one way or the other for many aspects of religion - its all about faith. either you choose to believe or you don’t, simple - and nobody here can really say one choice is wrong and the other is right.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
72John, BITE ME!
Yes, that’s about the level of dialogue that we’ve come to expect from you.
Mara and Lozen need to hook up-they’d make a great couple. Two peas in a pod. They can sit around and talk about how insignificant they are and how they believe in NOTHING!
Hmm, apparently you aren’t familiar with the works of many of the great philosophers of history, are you? Not surprising, really, since they don’t usually come up while watching BET. And how stupid you must be, to equate not accepting a particular dogmatic religion with believing nothing.
And for one to call the other “smart” doesn’t really say a whole heck of a lot now does it? HAHAHAHAHA
Do…you think YOU’RE “smart”, Justin? And if so, what evidence do you have to support this? Given that you’ve been spouting off non-stop like a juvenille delinquent for the last week, why in the world do you think YOU are qualified to judge the intelligence of your betters?
By Mara
June 22, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
Bill Moyers, a philosopher? Who woulda guessed it?! :-)
Poor Justin. Can’t get the better of John so he moves on to a different target for his spleen. It’s funny that he’d say athiests and agnostics believe in “nothing”. Obviously we’d have to believe in something, right? Shall we begin the Blue Collar Blogging Tour then?
I believe…stupid people shouldn’t attempt logic
I believe…the more you insult others, the more ignorant you sound
I believe…some people shouldn’t breed
I believe…empirical evidence is better than unfounded faith
so Justin, it seems that I do believe in some things LOL!!
I believe…
By Justin
June 22, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
I believe 72 should run along to his sewing class. ROFLMAO
I believe Mara needs help getting her head out of…the sand. ROFLMAO
I believe fathers should have custody and mothers should have to pay child support!
I believe in a country where a black man WILL be president and begin to change the damage done during the slave years.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Kyle - even “faith”, as practiced by many, is a reflection of this “egotistical mindset”. It’s an “I’m-right-you’re-wrong” thing that feeds into the tribe mentality. (shrug) what can you do though, it’s human nature to need someone to feel superior, too. I tend to denigrate those who insist that “opinion” is the same as “fact”, who choose ignorance over education, and anyone who dresses their pets in clothing…but those are my personal bias and I don’t try to enshrine their practice into law.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this
I believe…that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
Justin, your beliefs are worth 3/5 of what most of our beliefs are worth. Look it up. It’s in the Constitution.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this
Other men (beside John) that sew -
Yves St Laurent
Hubert De Givenchy
John Galliano
Herve Leger
Giani Versace
Georgio Armani
Jean-Paul Gaultiere
Calvin Klein
By Billy
June 22, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this
I believe in a country where a black man WILL be president and begin to change the damage done during the slave years.
How stupid is that statement? I also believe that a black man will be President one day. I think, however, thet we’ve done a lot to undo the damage done by slavery. That black president will hardly “begin” to affect change. In fact, for a black man to become president you pretty much have to accept that that damage has been largely reversed.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this
I believe that I don’t sew.
I believe that just because you put “ROFLMAO” or “HAHAHAHA” at the end of your sentence, that doesn’t make it funny.
I believe that Justin lacks imagination and creativity, based on his inability to make any gay joke that doesn’t compare gay men to women.
I believe that any judge who would award custody of a DOG to Justin should be removed from the bench. Awarding him custody of an actual child would be grounds for execution.
I believe that Justin’s “wife” must have been drunk in order to allow him the opportunity to impregnate her in the first place.
I believe that people who say things like “Repair the damage done since the slave years” are deeply mired in a victim mentality.
I believe that I’ve had more fun goading Justin this week than I’ve had in quite a while.
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
Mara - are you implying that since i choose to have faith in my beliefs, and you choose not to belive in the same thing, that i consider myself superior to you, or that “i’m right and your wrong”? i already agreed that you can’t prove or disprove many religious beliefs.
this is very very random, and i’m just throwing this out there, but i was trying to think of where i had heard this “egotistical” argument before and i finally hit me. ALIENS. oddly enough, the argument also came from a sci-fi friendly crowd. it went something like this: if there is a being that created all these galaxies, and he/she/whatever was responsible for creating life on earth, wouldn’t it be “egotistical” to think this being only attempted this experiment on earth - therefore, there must be life elsewhere
By Bob
June 22, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
I stopped reading this column for awhile because of the mismatched intelligence levels between Shaunti and Diane. I thought I’d try again today…no changes. Diane offers very little in the way of facts or logic, just (yawn) conservative-bashing drivel. I have to give her credit for citing a source of her information: a volunteer worker at a needle distribution organization. (Hmm, I wonder what credentials you need to volunteer there?) Then Shaunti tells her opinions using facts, credible sources (Dr. Stephanie Strathdee of Johns Hopkins University), and personal experiences. It’s just a pathetic mismatch. I have friends that are probably every bit as liberal-minded as Diane that could give Shaunti a run for her money in a debate. I may have different opinions than they do, but they make me think about my position because they use facts and logic to advance their positions. Surely the AJC could find someone better than Diane to represent the libs. She’s just a drivel-spewing fanatic. At least she’s cute!
By The72John
June 22, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Then Shaunti tells her opinions using facts, credible sources (Dr. Stephanie Strathdee of Johns Hopkins University
Apparently your intelligence level is not significantly higher than you accuse Diane’s of being, or you would know that the study cited by Shaunti doesn’t prove anything whatsoever about the effectiveness of needle exchange programs. In typical Conservative fashion, Shaunti uses statistics that are not relevant to the case.
The study simply states that HIV rates increased by X% over Y period of time. That is a simple statement. One cannot say that this conclusion disproves the effectiveness of the NEP because one doesn’t know what the increase in HIV would have been in the absence of the NEP. The increase could have been 35% without the NEP. There is simply no way to determine the impact of the NEP based on the factors quoted about this study.
But then, I really expect more from someone who thinks that an anecdotal story about Shaunti’s poor, poor uncle represents empirical evidence about the overall trend effectiveness of NEPs.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
Kyle - all belief groups tend to think that they are right and those who believe differently are wrong. It’s not a comment on the person or the validity of their belief, merely an aspect of human nature. If you are NOT firm in the belief your religion is “the truth” then you are not firm in your faith. By insisting that your “truth” is indeed true it, by implication, you (meaning the faithful individual, not necessarily “you”, Kyle) are saying that those who do NOT share that faith are wrong. As a group, most religious groups have the rather egotistical opinion that they are gods chosen and thus they have a duty to convert those who don’t follow “the way, the truth, and the light”.
Whether it makes you feel superior, that only you, Kyle, can answer.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Well Justin, we agree on one thing: “I believe in a country where a black man (or woman) WILL be president…” I hope you’re right in this too, “… and begin to change the damage done during the slave years.”
By Mara
June 22, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
John - someone who thinks that an anecdotal story about Shaunti’s poor, poor uncle represents empirical evidence about the overall trend effectiveness of NEPs.
*ROTFLMFAO!!!
By lozen
June 22, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this
And to continue on my soap box and Bill Moyers soap box: “True believers make my blood run cold because they will brook no dissent, seek no debate, accept no compromise. American politics is polarized today because the base of the Republican Party is composed of true believers: “My way or the highway.” The platform adopted at the convention of Texas Republicans declares, “America is a Christian nation.” The delegates pledged “to exert our influence toward a return to the original intent of the First Amendment and dispel the myth of the separation of church and state.” John Green, who studies church-state issues at the University of Akron, sums it up so well. He says: “The GOP has defined itself against Democrats by making religion, particularly issues such as abortion and gay marriage, part of its politics. This is not a political disagreement. This is a religious disagreement.” A shudder runs down my spine. Religious zealots don’t want compromise, which is why they loathe democracy. And it’s not just the U.S. The New York Times has reported that despite years of work aimed at changing Saudi Arabia’s public school curriculum, the country’s newest textbooks continue to promote intolerance of other religions. A first-grade student is taught that “Every religion other than Islam is false.” Fifth-graders learn that “It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and his prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.” The world’s aflame with intolerance, and millions of true believers (whatever they say their religion is) are passing buckets of kerosene to throw on it.”
By Randy
June 22, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
If I may speak on the comments by Mara at 12:00 today. I have heard several non-Christians who have said similar things as you said in that post, namely we have a “egotistical mindset” that we have a “I’m right and your wrong” way of talking about the creator( God and his son Jesus). I disagree, we don’t feel superior to non-Christians, that is just the way non-Christians take what we say. The difference is we don’t have any doubts, we know what we are talking about is the truth. I went to church last week and there were no doubts, if fact I can’t remember any church service where any doubt was shown.Why should we show doubts on something we know is true?? Actually, where alot of Christians are that have grown in their faith is so far past any doubt, it would be like going back to the 1st grade in school. But you must accept Jesus as your lord and savior to understand what I am talking about. It’s a spiritual, life changing and the most important thing you will ever do. The contentment of knowing where your eternal soul will spend eternity is so settling.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this
I can’t begin to describe the irony of Randy’s post falling immediately after lozen’s. Randy, you are what I like to call Exhibit A.
The reason you see “no reason to disbelieve” is that you don’t question anything. At all. Ever. You are a sheep, a puppet, an unthinking pawn who is incapable of making decisions about morality for yourself, someone who requires someone else to tell him how to live, how to act, who to be nice to, etc. etc. etc.
The only reason you aren’t strapping bombs to your chest and killing the people who you don’t agree with is because you live in a more stable part of the world. Transpose you into the Middle East and BAMN - Insta-Taliban.
By Jack
June 22, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this
“Other men (beside John) that sew -
Me. (Good therapy)
By The72John
June 22, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
By the way, Randy, this:
But you must accept Jesus as your lord and savior to understand what I am talking about. It’s a spiritual, life changing and the most important thing you will ever do. The contentment of knowing where your eternal soul will spend eternity is so settling.
is exactly what Mara means by egotistical mindset. Idiot.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this
Kyle - Randy illustrates the “I’m-right-you’re-wrong” mindset that I was positing so very, very well.
Why should we show doubts on something we know is true
No proof, no empirical evidence, no FACT. But they KNOW they’re right, and everyone else is wrong. See what I mean?
By Jack
June 22, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this
No one should trash Lyrazel or Lozen. Both ladies have more sense and wisdom than most on this blog. (I know this is a late post but had to comment on it)
By Jack
June 22, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
Got to sign off for the day. A big cyber kiss to all the great ladies who grace this blog. See ya next week. :)
By Kyle
June 22, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
Mara - no, my beliefs don’t make me feel superior. but i gotta say, most of your last post does make sense, and i can’t really argue with its logic - except the part about “As a group, most religious groups have the rather egotistical opinion that they are gods chosen….” they think they are gods? really? i hope you were being sarcastic. btw i don’t consider myself to be very religious in the mainstream meaning of the term (as i said earlier, i hardly ever go to church), but i do have thoughts and beliefs that i hold true. i tend to think religion should be more of a personal thing that doesn’t have to be proven by public acts such as going to church. but if there is one thing i can’t stand, its someone constantly pushing their beliefs on everyone around them and insisting that they are right and to disagree with them is wrong. i’ve witnessed way too much of that firsthand and its just aggravating.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
Kyle, it probablyy should’ve been “..think they are god’s chosen,” as in chosen people.
By Randy
June 22, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this
There is no doubt once you have had a true life changing experience thru Jesus Christ. Anyone who hasn’t had that life changing experiece will not understand, however if they do have that experience, they will look around and go “Now I see the forest, it’s right where the trees are”. How could I have been so blind?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
There is no doubt once you have had a true life changing experience thru Jesus Christ. Anyone who hasn’t had that life changing experiece will not understand, however if they do have that experience, they will look around and go “Now I see the forest, it’s right where the trees are”. How could I have been so blind?
And the egotism continues…you’re SPECIAL, aren’t you Randy. God’s CHOSEN, aren’t you Randy. You’re a T**, aren’t you Randy.
By Billy
June 22, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
Randy, you are truly a tool.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
Mara, I’ve been reading sci fi since grade school and can’t tell you all the writers I like but some are: Marion Zimmer Bradley (not the greatest writer but her ideas and story plots are soooooo good), Ray Bradbury, Robert Anton (?) Wilson, Kurt Vonnegut (not sci fi specifically but …), just to name four. Randy, I was just thinking how perfectly this applies to you … “These (fundamentalists) are people for whom secular politics has failed. It doesn’t provide their lives with meaning. The chaotic events of the world have fueled a yearning for certainty, and fundamentalism is nothing if not certain — it offers propositions that can be affixed as bumper stickers; it gives people sound bites to which they can assent. It’s a life jacket in a stormy sea, solid ground in the earthquake of life. Furthermore, if you believe a sacred text is literally the word of God, you don’t need any other proof. And you don’t want to waste time with people who disagree with you. You know God’s mind — who are they to stand in your way? Around the world, fundamentalism is waging war against the imagination — against creativity, freedom (freedom of the mind, above all), and against the tolerance that is necessary if people of different beliefs are to live together.”
By Mara
June 22, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
Kyle, I think you misread that quote. By “gods chosen” I mean “chosen by god” as his especial favorite group whom he will reward for their faithfulness by punishing their enemies and then whooshing them up to paradise.
and I agree with you about the aggravation of unrelenting proselytization. Like you, I think that ones personal religious convictions should be just that…personal.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Hey lozen, did you ever read Dan Simmons Hyperion series?
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
Randy it’s fine for you to believe you have the answer to all life’s questions and problems. But can you not understand that others of us have had life changing experiences too? And they’re just as valid as yours. I don’t credit my awesome experiences to Jesus because I’m not a christian. You do. I’m sure a muslim who has those experiences credit Mohammed or Allah. Our interpretation of what our life changing experiences mean is different and that’s fine too. I would never try to tell you that my experiences are superior to your experiences. That’s why people don’t like you. You may not mean to sound pompous and “holier-than-thou” but you do. Your religion works for you. My atheism works for me. Fine. Would you agree with this statement, “Faith or belief is the very essence of religion.”
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
72John, I don’t think I’ve read Simmons… When we get into our 60’s, we can’t be too sure what we’ve done anymore :-)
By The72John
June 22, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
You really ought to read it - it’s one of (I think) the best written series I’ve ever read. Simmons is highly literary, and there are themes at its core about faith and spirituality that, based on your posts, I think would greatly appeal to you.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
lozen - I think that Robert Wilsons middle name is Charles (if you mean the author of Darwinia and the Chronoliths)
My faves for hard fiction are (of course) Asimov and Sagan, Heinlein, Stanislaw Lem and Tom Godwin. On the fantasy side we have Tolkein, LeGuin, McCaffrey, Robert Jordan and Mercedes Lackey. Of course my library has more authors than these, but there’s the tip of the iceburg :-)
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
72John, just read the first three pages of The Rise of Endymion on Amazon and that sounds like something I’d really like to read. Everyone on earth and its star worlds are born again christians! the church rules totally! Sounds like a nightmare sci-fi story.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
*By Billy
June 22, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
Kyle, it probablyy should’ve been “..think they are god’s chosen,” as in chosen people*
Thanks for catching that, Billy. Misplacing that apostrophe could have been a catastrophe. I have to admit that my use of apostrophes tends to be erratic and half the time, mis-placed (heh, heh, heh…)
By Mara
June 22, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
“Darwinia” and “The Chronoliths”…
By Kaka14785
June 22, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
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By Kyle
June 22, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
72John; “The reason you see “no reason to disbelieve” is that you don’t question anything. At all. Ever. You are a sheep, a puppet, an unthinking pawn who is incapable of making decisions about morality for yourself, someone who requires someone else to tell him how to live, how to act, who to be nice to, etc. etc. etc.”
isn’t it possible that Randy has reached this point in his beliefs b/c he once started out with an open mind, expierenced things for himself, asked all of his questions, and he ultimately arrived at his position? i tend to hear this accusation a lot from people, and i just don’t agree that since someone is a very religious person they are automatically “a sheep, a puppet, an unthinking pawn.” if randy has indeed gone through the process that i have described above, then i would say that is anything but a mindless drone simply following the masses.
By Netbanker
June 22, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this
Wow! I’m missing some excellent discussion here, but i see Lozen, Lyrazel, and Mara are kicking it today! Way to sum it up ladies!!
Randy…give up, dude! The more you post the more you support the statements of religious self-importance. What if that life changing experience wasn’t really Jesus Christ, but was Satan as a false prophet? Do you REALLY ‘know’ or do you think you know? What is the proof? Do your postings reflect the teachings of Christ and make people want to hear more or do they alienate others (a goal of the anti-Christ)? And why am I asking these questions because when you raise your shield of faith against questions you might as well be in Maxwell Smart’s Cone of Silence while I’m on the outside trying to talk to you? Nothing can penetrate it and you’ll continue to repeat the mantra that ‘only true believers know.’
I doubt if it has time (or is that bored) to worry about who’s marrying who on one little insignificant ball of dirt orbiting a rather ordinary sun on the outer edge of a completely unremarkable galaxy. Mara…you’ve pretty much summed up my position…which also supports my ascertion that human religions are extremely self-centered and self-important and as a result limit their own omnipotent God into a rather powerlessby being so. I’m a Douglas Adams fan, myself. I loved the Hitchhiker’s Guide series which pretty much starts out with the Earth getting ready to be destroyed as an “insignifianct ball of dirt orbiting a ordinary star” in order to make way for an intergalactic superhighway. When you really think about the grand, grand scheme of things we humans are battling away for control over territory on a little ball of dirt that will one day be vaporized into oblivion when our own Sun explodes in a supernova. I realize it’s very difficult for most people to think that far down the road, but it does kind of put the pettiness of various wars over territory and oil and whatnot into perspective, doesn’t it?
another thought also occurred to me today as I was listening to Neal Boortz chatting away about the water situation and the survival of the sturgeon. As he mentions throughout the history of the Earth species have come and gone with very few surviving somewhat unchanged such as gators, sharks, and whales. I’m guessing that at the rate humans are going our species is either going to kill ourselves, be overwhelmed by a virus,or so alter the biosphere that we’re not all that likely to even still be around when the sun does supernova. Honestly, all it will take is one good sized comet or asteroid and we’re toast! I think that chances of being wiped out as species are significantly higher than us ever achieving peace on Earth despite almost every major religion tell us to love one another.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
The Wilson I remember wrote a book about religion as seen thru the eyes of a rebel standing outside it (maybe he was from another planet or something). Ray Bradbury wrote a short story about a small group who had survived after they dropped the big ones. They based their religion on scraps of the bible they found. Due to radiation many children were born with horrible mutations and they were put to death based on a scrap from the bible about the lame not being able to enter the temple. But, some children were being born with the ability to communicate telepathically and that was also considered to be “a sin” and they were killed also. A group of kids had learned to hide their sin and communicated with each other although they felt bad about themselves and knew they were sinful and abnormal! Sound familar? At the end… should I tell you the end of the story? Unfortunately, I can’t remember the name of it John! It was in an anthology of sci-fi. I’m going to look for it.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Rise is the last book - it goes Hyperion, The Fall of Hyperion, Endymion, and The Rise of Endymion. Must read in order! Don’t peek!
By Chilao
June 22, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
I once ran a personals ad labeled Atheist seeks Evolved. Could you believe 90 percent of the responses were hate-mail from the fire-and-brimstone crowd? (Naw..LOL) In fact it got so prolific, I had a nice little text file saved that I sent back, it went along the lines of “Since I can read a personals ad where a woman states ‘Nice Christian woman seeks Christian man’ and say “well, that’s not me” and very nicely move on the next ad WITHOUT having to send that woman a piece of hostile hate mail, I will rest my case on the Evolved comment.” (or something like that). Still have it on CD at home, came across it awhile back. LOL
By Julia
June 22, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
Randy, don’t let the non-believers drag you down. (Not that they would anyway.) I know what you mean by a life-changing experience through Christ. If you haven’t experienced it it’s hard to comprehend. Kind of like trying to describe colors to a blind man.
The people on this blog (not all of them) have made up their mind that they don’t want to know Christ. It’s sad but sometimes you have to leave it at that. Even the apostles had to eventually walk away from those who ridiculed them and move on.
Sharing the message is wonderful. I admire your tenacity. Keep standing up for the truth my friend. ;)
By Chilao
June 22, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
Don’t forget Robert Heinlein and Lazarus.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
isn’t it possible that Randy has reached this point in his beliefs b/c he once started out with an open mind, expierenced things for himself, asked all of his questions, and he ultimately arrived at his position? i tend to hear this accusation a lot from people, and i just don’t agree that since someone is a very religious person they are automatically “a sheep, a puppet, an unthinking pawn.” if randy has indeed gone through the process that i have described above, then i would say that is anything but a mindless drone simply following the masses
If you had read the entire ouvre of Randy’s “work” you would understand. My comment was not based on this one comment alone.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
OK 72, back to Amazon for Hyperion! Net, unfortunately or fortunately, I think you’re right. We humans seem to be wired to self destruct!
By Netbanker
June 22, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
No wonder I like Lozen and Mara…some great authors that I’ve read throughout my life too. The Rise of Endymion is EXCELLENT as I recall, but that was many moons ago. In my pre-teens and teens I was a major sci-fi addict.
Lozen…you’re scaring me!! I’m not yet 40 and can’t quite be certain of everything I’ve done and am pretty sure that I’ve recently passed the tipping point of forgetting more experiences than I can remember…at least unprompted. I’m trying to make myself feel better by claiming that it’s just because I’ve been fortunate to have traveled quite a bit, had a very adventure filled life (even when doing mundane things like the wash in a laundry mat), and been gift with having one of those faces that says “Hey! Come talk to me…even if I won’t be able to comprehend a thing you’re saying or you’re a complete freak.”
By Julia
June 22, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
And for the record, Randy (and every other Christian for that matter) have the right to express their beliefs on this forum just as much as Mara and lozen have the right to express their atheism.
Just because they discuss atheism does not anger me or make me want to tell them to shut up about it. it’s their right to believe what they want and to express those beliefs. But Randy also has a right to express his beliefs without war breaking out condemning him for HIS beliefs.
Ok, my 2 cents.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this
Net, Rise was only published a few years ago. So unless you’ve been a-lyin about your age…!
By lozen
June 22, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this
Not to worry Net… I’ve never had the greatest of memories and you know what we say, “If you remember the 60’s, you were not there!” The Endymion series was just recommended to me by 72John so I have something to look forward to! Yay. Anyone else have sci-fi or fantasy with a religious subtext to recommend?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
And for the record, Randy (and every other Christian for that matter) have the right to express their beliefs on this forum just as much as Mara and lozen have the right to express their atheism.
Just because they discuss atheism does not anger me or make me want to tell them to shut up about it. it’s their right to believe what they want and to express those beliefs. But Randy also has a right to express his beliefs without war breaking out condemning him for HIS beliefs.
That’s great, Julia. Really. The thing is, Randy and some of the other Christians on here, and even you, I’m afraid to say after your post today, don’t content yourself with saying “I believe this”. You are compelled to qualify your statements of personal belief with “The rest of you are wrong and ignorant, and because you haven’t met Jesus, you don’t realize it”.
Why do you think so many people get so ANGRY at Christians like you, Julia? It isn’t because you are some persecuted sect, it’s because you try to tell everyone else how wrong they are and try to make them live their lives the way you think they should.
If you just said “I believe in Jesus” I would be perfectly happy to let you discuss religion to your heart’s content. But every time you say things like “Even the Apostles walked away from people who ridiculed them” or “They’ve made the decision not to know Jesus”, I want to punch you.
By Netbanker
June 22, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
if randy has indeed gone through the process that i have described above, then i would say that is anything but a mindless drone simply following the masses Kyle…were Randy able to articulate the process he’s gone through and been able to give us more than “I know and you would too if you’d gone through it” then you might be right. So far that just hasn’t happened.
And Randy, I feel like I owe you a bit of an apology after reading Julia’s post. I shouldn’t tell you to give up when this is something you truly believe in. Your delivery could use a bit of work, though, because it does seem to put off more people than it attracts.
Julia…do you accept Lozen’s proposition that quite a few of us ‘non-believers’ have also had those life changing moments, but we don’t attribute them to Jesus? That we too see the magesty, diversity, complexity of life on this Earth, but don’t believe that any being who could have been responsible for it really needs our worship or is even all that concerned with our daily activities? That our own spirituality actually allows for all us to be under the same God, but we are without the shackles of organized religion that has, in verifiable fact, resulted in more wars and death than any other reason? That the Universe or God or whatever you want to call it that we acknowledge becomes known to each of us in a meaningful way rather than requiring all of us to follow a single, generic way?
Lozen…I know that book! can’t remember what it is, but very clear bells ringing in the dark recesses of my mind.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this
I had an interesting thought while reading Julia’s post. Is religious belief a “choice”? One can choose to accept the tenets of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Scientology…but does one make the choice between skepticism and faith?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
Mara, Mercedes Lackey is one of my faves, too. I’m a Jordan-junkie also, but I’m getting a little irritated at him.
Now, if you want a guilty trash-novel pleasure that you won’t be able to put down, I recommend the Anita Blake - Vampire Hunter series. It’s like Popular Fiction Heroin.
By Netbanker
June 22, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
John..I’m not lying about my age. I’ll be 40 in March. I said I was addicted to sci-fi in my teens, not that I’ve completely stopped reading the genre. And since there are 11 (or is it 10?) moons in a year several years ago would in fact be many moons, no?
As a youngster of 34 you’ll understand in another 5 years how much harder it becomes to recall how long ago something happened in the past…2 yrs-5yrs they all just start blending together and our parents were completely right when the said that time passes faster the older you get.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
If you just said “I believe in Jesus” I would be perfectly happy to let you discuss religion to your heart’s content.
72 John-Somehow I seriously doubt that.
But every time you say things like “Even the Apostles walked away from people who ridiculed them” or “They’ve made the decision not to know Jesus”, I want to punch you.
WOW! You want to punch me? You surprised me with that one 72 John. (And I think I said you were one of the most intelligent men on this blog the other day. Was I wrong?)
So what if I said the apostles eventually walked away? Haven’t YOU been telling Randy, Zach and Chuck to basically ‘walk away’ for months now?
And my saying,“They’ve made the decision not to know Jesus” is a pretty honest statement don’t you think? What about those words make you want to punch me? Haven’t you and lozen and others decided NOT to believe in or follow Jesus? Did I tell a lie there or not?
You guys have said some pretty rotten things about Christianity (under the guise of “oh, we’re just talking about fundies when we say the word Christian”) and I’ve kept quiet about it for the most part. I don’t get mad when you express your views on atheism or gnosticism. Why do you get so angry over Christians sharing their views? Of, it’s because some extrmeists have bashed gays. Well, that justifies your hating everyone who expresses Christian beliefs…not.
Now keep in mind that there has been NO mention of anything that bashes atheists or gay people (except Justin that is) yet Christians on this blog are still made fun of and belittled for sharing some of their beliefs.
It seems to me that the only religion that you want people to keep quiet about beliefs is Christians. So, yes, there does seem to be a major bias there-from what I can see.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
Lozen - Katherine Kurtz Deryni novels, Jean Auel’s Earths Children novels, Frank Herbert’s Dune books, Tom Flynn’s Galactic Rapture, and if you haven’t read it Tolkein’s Silmarillion…
actually it’s quite amazing to realize how many sci-fi and fantasy novels use a religious sub-text. Never really thought about it.
By Logic
June 22, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
I believe…atheists don’t exist.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
John - yeah, Jordan is starting to wear out his welcome in my library, that’s for sure. I’m giving him two more books to wrap it up. If he doesn’t, out he goes.
Love, love. LOVE Mercedes Lackey. I’ve even attempted her (blach!) contemporary magic tales. Elves in Los Angeles?! But her Valdamar books rule! I want her to write the whole story of the reconciliation between Karse and Valdamar. I want more detail on how Talia became a priestess of Vykandis. Bet Lozen would like the religous subtexts of the “Storm Rising” trilogy…
I’m gonna have to check out this Vampire Hunter series. I have to admit though, I tend to cheer for the vampire :-)
Net, have you sampled David Eddings Belgariad and Mallorian quintologies? Love the man’s writing.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
Thanks Mara. I’ve read Auel’s books and all the Dune books but have a hard time for some reason with Tolkein. I will try reading Silmarillion tho’.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
That the Universe or God or whatever you want to call it that we acknowledge becomes known to each of us in a meaningful way rather than requiring all of us to follow a single, generic way?
Net-I guess it comes down to whether you believe the bible and it’s statement that there’s ONE person by which we may be saved…Jesus. The bible (a Christian’s holy book-obviously) is pretty clear about there being one person through which we may be saved. So, for a Christian who believes the bible to be the word of God it’s pretty cut and dried.
Obviously if you don’t believe the bible or it’s trustworthiness then you will NOT believe it’s so cut and dried, so to speak.
I think for a Christian it comes down to belief in the bible and therefore the one way to be saved/forgiven/have eternal life. Since most on here don’t trust in the bible or it’s contents then obviously they see another way besides the Christian way.
(And I hope I’ve never belittled anyone for their beliefs. If anything I’ve ever said has come across that way I’m sorry. But I’m not sorry for discussing my beliefs-even if some disagree with them.)
By lozen
June 22, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
See Logic, you believe an invisible and unprovable god exists but you don’t believe I exist while you read my words. Just like a … I mean some… christians.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
Oh goodie! More books to read for my summer reading program ;-) Netbanker: There are actually 13 moons in a year.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
Oh, and back for one minute to the “Happy holidays/Merry Xmas” story. What was so amazing to me about that, was the woman who said happy holidays was oriental and probably buddhist or something not christian.
By Mara
June 22, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Julia - do you “choose” not to believe in elves and unicorns? Because you don’t want to believe in elves and unicorns? If you did beleive in elves and unicorns, would that make them real? (if you believe, everyone, clap your hands….)
now substitute God for elves and unicorns…
time to go…ta-ta all y’all.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
WOW! You want to punch me?
No, not really Julia. It’s a bit of hyperbole there.
And my saying,“They’ve made the decision not to know Jesus” is a pretty honest statement don’t you think?
No, it’s arrogant and dismissive. That’s what you don’t understand. Would you tell, say, a Buddhist “Well, I see you’ve made the decision not to know Jesus”. When you say this, you are being patronizing and superior.
You guys have said some pretty rotten things about Christianity (under the guise of “oh, we’re just talking about fundies when we say the word Christian”) and I’ve kept quiet about it for the most part
Like what? Nothing I have said negative is untrue. There ARE many large organizations who have as their stated goal the establishment of a Christian theocracy in this country. There ARE many conservative Christians in this country who seek to make other religions secondary. There ARE many conservative Christians who believe that the objective findings of science should be secondary to the dogmatic teachings of religion. There ARE many Christians who hate gays and believe that we do not have the right to live in this country.
All of these things are true, Julia, and they are the reason that my opinions of Christianity and religion is general is so negative, overall.
Why do you get so angry over Christians sharing their views? Of, it’s because some extrmeists have bashed gays. Well, that justifies your hating everyone who expresses Christian beliefs…not
Because, as we’ve often tried to say, you don’t just SHARE your views…you tell us how inferior we are because we don’t share them. Because you KNOW Jesus and we don’t you come across as arrogant and condescending. When you say things like “One day you’ll see” you come across as patronizing and superior.
It seems to me that the only religion that you want people to keep quiet about beliefs is Christians. So, yes, there does seem to be a major bias there-from what I can see.
Again…if you can avoid telling us all how terrible we are for not sharing them, I don’t think we’d have a problem with you expressing your beliefs.
By Archie
June 22, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
“If you just said “I believe in Jesus” I would be perfectly happy to let you discuss religion to your heart’s content. But every time you say things like “Even the Apostles walked away from people who ridiculed them” or “They’ve made the decision not to know Jesus”, I want to punch you.”
Why punch her? I mean Julia is a christian and she should be able to discuss her religion on a public blog. Julia says the standard things that a christian says and just as some who are gay say and do the standard things gay people do. If we say we’re open-minded then we have to be open-minded to things we don’t like. Why go after Julia when she has already said she has a belief? In other words, she’s not trying to prove anything empirically. I don’t post things about scripture because the topics don’t warrant such posts and I know some folk are atheists but it should not cause a war of words if someone does post something religious.
By Archie
June 22, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
“Because, as we’ve often tried to say, you don’t just SHARE your views…you tell us how inferior we are because we don’t share them.”
72John, I get told I am inferior in a sense and I go to church weekly so those words are not exclusive to gays and atheists and no I don’t think the people that say those things are arrogant. I have been told I am going to hell for going to a nightclub but I don’t react with a war of words. Some of the reactions here are amazing. I do understand where yourself and Netbanker come from when it comes to gay marriage and I have openly supported it. I do think however that christians should not get bashed at the mere mention of anything religious. Let me be real clear in that christian folk will tick you off but so will atheists.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
The thing is every religion believes what their “holy book” says. The Greeks believed their stories about their gods were true. The Muslims believe their “holy book” is the truth and that christians are wrong. The christians believe theirs is true and the muslims are wrong. The church on the corner believes their interpretation of the bible is true and the church on the other corner is wrong. Julia, what if you’ve chosen the wrong god?
By The72John
June 22, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this
I do think however that christians should not get bashed at the mere mention of anything religious
And they don’t.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
No, 72 John, I did not say anyone was “terrible” for not believing the same things that I do.
By lozen
June 22, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
If there is a god that created this magnificent universe, would that god tell a group of men they had to cut off their foreskins to show they were his chosen people and prove they had a covenant with him? Highly unlikely IMO… Would he strike dead a man whose only problem was not wanting to have sex with his dead brother’s wife? Highly unlikely IMO. Would he inspire a book written in a language 99 percent of people don’t understand and can never read for themselves to save us all from eternal damnation? Highly unlikely IMO.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
No, 72 John, I did not say anyone was “terrible” for not believing the same things that I do.
No, but you sometimes certainly come accross that way.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
I do think however that christians should not get bashed at the mere mention of anything religious
And they don’t.
That’s just bull and you know it.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
lozen-Julia, what if you’ve chosen the wrong god?
I believe there’s only ONE God. You disagree with my beliefs and that’s certainly your right. If I promise not to belittle your beliefs or make fun of them will you promise to do the same?
By lozen
June 22, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the book suggestions my friends. Can’t wait to get to the library!
By Julia
June 22, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
lozen-you don’t believe in God or the bible. I get it. Please stop making fun of what I believe.
72-It was never intended that way I assure you.
By The72John
June 22, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
That’s just bull and you know it.
No, it isn’t bull. If someone wants to discuss their faith in terms of how it affects their life, then no one bashes them. No one bashed JBM for talking about religion, or RF, or others.
It’s only when you say “This is the way it is and you’re all wrong if you don’t believe it” that you get “bashed” as you put it.
By Julia
June 22, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
It’s been fun-you guys are great. Everyone have a great evening. :)
P.S. Thanks Archie! See ya’ tomorrow….
By Bob
June 22, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this
72John, Wow, that’s a bit of a stretch to state that I considered Shaunti’s experience (with her uncle) to be empirical evidence. You probebly know this already, but there are many ways to support - not necessarily prove - one’s thesis: empirical evidence is one (my personal favorite), personal experience is another, and then there is the testimony of experts. It is plain that Shaunti did not prove (or disprove) anything about the success of NEP’s, but the fact is that she presented a more compelling case than Diane and almost always does. Again, (if were talking to you in person I’d speak slowly, but since this is written communication I’ll just type slowly) the AJC could find many liberal-minded people that could out-debate Diane easily. She’s just a lightweight compared to Shaunti. It makes for boring reading. It would be similar to watching a professional boxer fight a 90lb. weakling. The outcome is pretty much predetermined. That’s a poor analogy, but I think you get my drift. From reading quite a few of your replies to others, you seem well-educated and well-read, but it appears you are just looking for opportunities to insult people, though you are cleverly passive-aggressive about it. I bet you were picked on a lot as a kid, weren’t you? Lighten up. By the way, you are probably correct that Diane’s more intelligent than me. She figured out how to get the AJC to pay her to spew her venomous drivel!
By GOB
June 23, 2006 07:34 AM | Link to this
Wow, go to the lake for a day and look what all I miss…
By Scrooge-loving Lyrazel
June 23, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
Kyle: Scrooge is a mythical character in a Dickens novel and how nice of you to compare me, but in a way you just proved my point of what Christmas has become. Scrooge has become the ICON of Christmas. Find Scrooge in the Bible—nope. But he is about as Christmas as Christmas, right? Every subsequent year the holiday grows farther and farther from its religious connection. Bet if you quizzed 100 kids in ANY Sunday School you would find most can name all of Santa’s reindeer but could not name the 3 kings who went to the manger. Happy Friday
Now for the jokes which are far more important than anything I have to say:
While suturing a laceration on the hand of a 70-year-old Texas rancher (whose hand had caught in a gate while working cattle), a doctor and the old man were talking about George W. Bush being in the White House.
The old Texan said, “Well, ya know, Bush is a ‘post turtle’.”
Not knowing what the old man meant, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was.
The old man said, “When you’re driving down a country road, and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that’s a post turtle.
The old man saw a puzzled look on the doctor’s face, so he continued to explain, “You know he didn’t get there by himself, he doesn’t belong there, he can’t get anything done while he’s up there, and you just want to help the poor dumb thing get down.”
By The72John
June 23, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this
Bob, apparently you didn’t type slowly enough. Use of two of the three sources of “evidence” you claim are acceptable to use in proving a thesis is considered a logical fallacy. Can you guess which two? I’ll give you a hint. One is called the “appeal to authority” fallacy and the other is called the “anecdotal” fallacy.
It’s also fallacious to attack an argument simply by attacking its source, rather than responding to its substance, by the way.
By Lyrazel
June 23, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this
Oooo John72, I feel like I am in Logic class again….when do we discuss Descartes? I think therefore I am…works for me…….until I start to think………..lol…..
By Mara
June 23, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this
An alien walks into a bar and sits next to a drunk guy and begins poking him in the shoulder.
The drunk guy just ignores him.
After a wile the guy turns to the alien and begins looking him up and down.
He notices that the alien has no genitalia.
He then asks “You guys have no genitalia, how do you guy have sex?”
The alien, still poking him in the arm, just smiles!
By Mara
June 23, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this
Speaking of logic…
Two rednecks decided that they weren’t going anywhere in life and thought they should go to college to get ahead. The first goes in to see the counselor, who tells him to take Math, History, and Logic.
“What’s logic?” the first redneck asks.
The professor answers by saying, “Let me give you an example. Do you own a weedeater?”
“I sure do.”
“Then I can assume, using logic, that you have a yard,” replied the professor.
“That’s real good!” says the redneck.
The professor continues, “Logic will also tell me that since you have a yard, you also own a house.”
Impressed, the redneck says, “Amazin!”
“And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife.”
“That’s Betty Mae! This is incredible!”
The redneck is obviously catching on.
“Finally, since you have a wife, logically I can assume that you are heterosexual,” said the professor.
“You’re absolutely right! Why that’s the most fascinatin’ thing I ever heard! I cain’t wait to take that logic class!!”
The redneck, proud of the new world opening up to him, walks back into the hallway, where his friend is still waiting. “So what classes are ya takin’?” asks the friend.
“Math, History, and Logic!” replies the first redneck.
“What in tarnation is logic???” asked his friend.
“Let me give you an example. Do ya own a weedeater?” asked the first redneck.
“No,” his friend replied.
“You’s GAY, ain’t ya?”
By Mara
June 23, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
I will persevere and we will have jokes on Friday -
Two political candidates were having a hot debate. Finally, one of them jumped up and yelled at the other, “What about the powerful interest that controls you?”
And the other guy screamed back, “You leave my wife out of this!”
By The72John
June 23, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this
Heh heh, funny Mara.
Only…
“And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife.”
Darnit, this conclusion simply doesn’t logically follow :-(
By Bob
June 23, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this
72J, I re-read my reply to make sure I had stated clearly what I had intended. I think it’s pretty clear. My exact words were “…there are many ways to support - not necessarily prove - one’s thesis…”. I never stated or implied that personal experience or testimony of experts were acceptable means to PROVE a thesis. But they are perfectly acceptable means of SUPPORTING a thesis. Big difference. I was wrong to attack you personally. My excuse for doing so is simply that I don’t like bullies: physical, verbal, or otherwise. My perception of you, based solely on reading several of your posts, is that you are an intellectual bully. Therefore, I thought I’d try my best to give you a taste of your own medicine. I’m just a bit more blunt and unpolished than you.
Going back to the point I was originally trying to make yesterday: Shaunti and Diane are not in the same league when it comes to debating skills or SUPPORTING their opinions. It would be a far more interesting column if the skills were more evenly matched. The irony of it all is that Diane is well-credentialed and I assume well-educated. It seems like she would be able to present her ideas better than she does. Maybe she has the ability, but chooses to rant instead of debate/explain/present. I don’t know, I just wish the AJC would find someone that was a more capable intellectual competitor for Shaunti. As it stands now, it’s like a fixed fight. I personally don’t care who “wins” these debates, but I would like to hear two different positions that are well-presented and well-researched.
Have a great weekend. I’m going to ride off into the sunrise now.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this
John - I think what Bob is trying to say is that, as usual when speaking of right/left matchups in the MSM, the “Hannity and Colmes” effect is evident in the W2W team. You know, where the rightwing person is persuasive and assertive while the leftwinger tends to be meek and less convincing…
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, i know its joke day, and happy friday to you too, but i just can’t let your 8:23 post go without responding too it - b/c its RIDICULOUS! “scrooge is the icon of christmas” - what are you talking about? scrooge is the antithesis of christmas, he hates christmas and everything about it, hardly the icon. as for your bet about the sunday school kids, i’ll take it. sure many of the kids can name a lot of reindeer, but if you think they don’t learn about the true meaning of christmas in sunday school you are sadly mistaken. btw, what do you base that sunday school assertion on? have you ever been to sunday school?
By Justin
June 23, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Bob, don’t go! We need you to stick around and put 72JOHN in his place!!!! ROFLMAO
By Billy
June 23, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Bob, your a conservative. Or a right-winger. Any liberal you ask will pretty much say that Diane generally makes the better argument each week. Your personal opinions mean that Shaunti needs less support for her side than Diane does for hers.
By Billy
June 23, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this
“your” a conservative? Did I just do that?
“You’re a conservative,” was, of course, what I meant to say.
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, sorry, one more thing i forgot. how did my likening you to scrooge prove your point? you had stated how christmas time disgusted you, and i made the assertion that your views were similar to that of scrooge. if anything, i would think that your post of “scrooge is the icon of christmas” shows your views of christmas very clearly and proves my point.
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this
(for the married or divorced folk)
The Mother in-law
A young man excitedly tells his mother he’s fallen in love and that he is going to get married. He says, “Just for fun, Ma, I’m going to bring over three women and you try and guess which one I’m going to marry.”
The mother agrees.
The next day, he brings three beautiful women into the house and sits themdown on the couch and they chat for a while. He then says, “Okay Ma, guess which one I’m going to marry?”
She immediately replies, “The one on the right.”
“That’s amazing, Ma. You’re right. How did you know?”
The mother replies, “I don’t like her .”
By Archie
June 23, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
I disagree with Bob and I think Diane does a very good job of presenting her arguments and Shanti does a good job — sometimes. Shanti writes things just for the sake of being a conservative and sometimes Shanti has no logical basis whatsoever for what she says at times. In truth Diane sometimes isn’t logical, well, because she has to do something to stir things up.
I liked that 8:30 am post because it brings back some memories from long ago.
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife.” Darnit, this conclusion simply doesn’t logically follow :-(
actually some got abbreviated from that joke, it is supposed to include ‘lots of kids, means large house; large house means lots of lawn’ lots of lawn means high maintentance, therefore he has a weedeater’. LOL
By The72John
June 23, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this
72J, I re-read my reply to make sure I had stated clearly what I had intended. I think it’s pretty clear. My exact words were “…there are many ways to support - not necessarily prove - one’s thesis…”. I never stated or implied that personal experience or testimony of experts were acceptable means to PROVE a thesis. But they are perfectly acceptable means of SUPPORTING a thesis. Big difference.
You can phrase it however you please, but the fact remains that neither anecdotal evidence nor appeals to authority are acceptable means to prove OR support one’s thesis.
For instance, Shaunti claims that her personal experience has some bearing on a trend. This is simply false. In simpler terms, if the statement one is trying to prove is “Brushing your teeth prevents cavities”, one person saying “Well, I brushed my teeth and I got cavities” does not then disprove the weight of empirical evidence supporting the thesis. That is why anecdotal evidence is simply NOT valid.
As for Shaunti’s debating skills - please. She routinely cites “studies” conducted by small special interest groups with vested interests in the findings and presents them as legitimate sources. She is hardly the paragon of logical debate you portray her as - in fact, she’s far more likely to base her “conclusions” on religious belief or fervor than actual logic or reality.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
Bob, don’t go! We need you to stick around and put 72JOHN in his place!!!! ROFLMAO
Yes, since you and your flaccid intelect are utterly incapable of doing so yourself. Back to the ‘hood with you.
John - I think what Bob is trying to say is that, as usual when speaking of right/left matchups in the MSM, the “Hannity and Colmes” effect is evident in the W2W team. You know, where the rightwing person is persuasive and assertive while the leftwinger tends to be meek and less convincing…
Hmm…I’ve never noticed Diane being particularly meek.
By lozen
June 23, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
Great jokes ladies. Mara I’ve been trying to find that one about the red necks going to college for a while - thanks. Is Bob’s political bias coloring his judgment of Diane’s debating skills just a tad?
By Mara
June 23, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
President Dubya was awakened one night by an urgent call from the Pentagon.
“Mr. President,” said the four-star general, barely able to contain himself, “there’s good news & bad news.”
“Oh, no,” muttered the President, “Well, let me have the bad news first.”
“The bad news, sir, is that we’ve been invaded by creatures from another planet.”
“Gosh, and the good news?”
“The good news, sir, is that they eat reporters and pee oil.”
By Justin
June 23, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this
Whoever has been posting this stuff about 72 John, it wasn’t me. But it’s been some FUNNY stuff so keep it coming!!!!!! (But please use your own name.)I haven’t posted in days…really…it wasn’t me,ok.
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
Mara, your post about hannity and colmes reminded me of something i saw this week. at the risk of everyone telling me that i can’t think for myself and am being brainwashed by fox news, i will admit that i was watching hannitly and colmes earlier this week - but hannity had an interview that many of you may have enjoyed. he interviewed whoopi goldberg. i was expecting the usual hollywood far left stuff from her, but was pleasantly surprised. she was on to promote herself as she started her new radio show, but she talked about a host of issues. not to say that she wasn’t generally left in her views, but i thought she was very thoughtful and logical in the way she presented her views, and she is always funny. does anyone know what radio station her show will be on? i’d like to give it a shot.
-also, i generally support bush as our president, and i agree with his actions on most issues - but i do understand that he is one of the easiest presidents to make fun of ever (my fav is will ferrel). that being said, whoopi had a funny joke in the interview which i will now steal and use as my joke on joke day. when speaking of bush’s actions at a fundraiser that he and stevie wonder both attended, whoopi said,
“you know something just isn’t right with a man when he waives at stevie wonder. stevie is blind, you know that! what the hell are ya waiving at!?”
By The72John
June 23, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this
i was expecting the usual hollywood far left stuff from her, but was pleasantly surprised. she was on to promote herself as she started her new radio show, but she talked about a host of issues. not to say that she wasn’t generally left in her views, but i thought she was very thoughtful and logical in the way she presented her views, and she is always funny
Why MY goodness. A thoughtful and logical liberal. Who knew. The next thing you’ll be telling us is there’s a conservative out there who isn’t an inbred hick.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
John, if you weren’t gay I’d show you a real good time my friend. If you ever change your mind you know where to find me honey. :>
By Mara
June 23, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
John - LOL!! Dang! I was gonna say the same thing but you beat me to it!
Kyle - Nothing wrong with watching Fox News, as long as you realize that Fair and Balanced is merely a marketing slogan and not a realistic description of their content. I also watch Fox sometimes, along with CNN, MSNBC, and both C-spans. (shrug) Even mis-information can highlite an area of concern on any given issue.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
Oh, please….some a* is posting under my name.
By 72 John
June 23, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this
Mara-You know if I wasn’t gay that you would certainly be my first choice sweetheart.
By GOB
June 23, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
John and Mara? I never would have guessed! I guess you never know.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this
Hey, we could go bowling. That’d be fun, and neither of our orientations would matter one way or the other.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this
You could come too GOB. We could get together a whole bowling party!
Thanks John, if that’s really you. Though the 10:38 wasn’t my post, I’d agree with it…IF I wasn’t giddy with affection for my own sweet honeybunny. And I never cheat….
By GOB
June 23, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
Hey, I love bowling. Haven’t been in years though. Can I tag along?
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
I looked over to my left and there was a woman in a brand new Cadillac doing 65 mph with her face up next to her rear view mirror putting on her eyeliner!
I looked away for a couple seconds and when I looked back she was halfway over in my lane, still working on that makeup.
As a man, I don’t scare easily. But she scared me so much; I dropped my electric shaver, which knocked the donut out of my other hand.
In all the confusion of trying to straighten out the car! using my knees against the steering wheel, it knocked my cell phone away from my ear which fell into the coffee between my legs, splashed, and burned Big Jim and the Twins,(obviously not written by Chilao since he does not name his privates/body parts…LOL) ruined the dang phone, soaked my trousers, and disconnected an important call.
Dang women drivers
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
72John in response to your 10:23 post, keep in mind that i said “i was expecting the usual HOLLYWOOD far left stuff from her.” in no way was i including all liberals in that statement. i am well aware that there are thougtful logical libs out there, but if you wanna associate all liberals with the stuff that comes from hollywood and celebrities, go right ahead. i just think that, with the exception of a few, most hoolywood celebrities just run their mouth b/c they have a stage. but they usually have no idea what they are talking about, and they seldom back any of their statements up with any logic or facts - they seem to be out of touch with reality and the common person due to their huge fortunes and extravagant lifestyles.
-oh, but nice insult with the inbred hick conservative comment. still keeping up with the stereotyping is see, but only to select groups of course.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
as I always say…the more the merrier ;^)
By The72John
June 23, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
but they usually have no idea what they are talking about, and they seldom back any of their statements up with any logic or facts - they seem to be out of touch with reality and the common person due to their huge fortunes and extravagant lifestyles
You mean like the huge fortunes and extravagant lifestyles enjoyed by most members of Congress, our President, Vice-President, etc.? Those huge fortunes and extravagant lifestyles? Many of those people come from generations of money and long ago lost any sense of what life is like for the average person, yet by your own admission you “trust” those people to make the right decisions for you.
The hollywood myth is yet another means of undermining liberal philosophies by people like Hannity. The role of the artist and performer in political commentary is as old as Aristophanes, if not older. Portraying them as cooks is just a way of defusing the validity of their messages.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this
Cooks, John? COOKS? Or did you mean kooks…? LOL!!
By The72John
June 23, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
erm…kooks.
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
anybody hear the recent debates in the Senate over raising the minimum wage, which has not risen in 10 years, and in the same time, the Senate received a $30,000 a year raise over those same 10 years.
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
72John, yeah, i agree most people in congress do come from a lot of money (as well as the pres and vp), but this is true of both sides. i’m gonna guess that you voted for kerry, and that guy married into a ton of money - his running mate also made tons of money in the courtroom. as for ted kennedy, he’s had a priviledged life as well. but the difference between these people and celebrities is that it is an elected official’s job to know what’s going on. they are required to gather all relevant facts and make educated decisions based on those facts (in theory at least). i could certianly be wrong, and i do think there are exceptions to this, but it just seems like many celebrities have a lot of free time on their hands and they decide to speak out on issues just to get attention, without giving any serious thought or investigation to what they are saying. either that or they are just being used as puppets to push some political message of another. so as for my view on hollywood being a “myth,” i guess we will just have to disagree on that.
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this
elected officials are supposed to stay informed on current events as opposed to rest of us, supposed to be and stay ignoramuses
did I read that right? Giving new meaning to the dumming down of America for sure. LMAO
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
Chilao, yeah, i heard about those debates, and it seems as though the min. wage won’t be raised anytime soon. something has always bothered me about congress getting to decide when THEY get a raise, just seems stupid and ripe for abuse. btw, what is min wage at now?
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Chilao, i think every citizen in the country has a responsibility to keep up with current and relevant events in order to ensure that our gov’t is kept in check. but the sad fact is that many people in this country have a much easier time naming the most recent winner of american idol than their own state senator. no matter what side people take on the issues, i wish more would take the time to actually pay attention to the important stuff that is going on. it never ceases to p** me off when i hear peole complaining about something in the gov’t and you ask them a few questions only to find out that they rarely watch the news, they don’t keep up with current events, and many don’t vote. Iraq had a higher voter turnout than america’s last election, and they were risking death - that’s just pathetic.
By The Actual GOB
June 23, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Wow, I seem to be awfully talented, as apparently I have been blogging all morning while in a meeting without even knowing it. Sometimes I impress even myself…
By The72John
June 23, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this
Yes, some simpering coward is posting with other people’s handles and seems to think that it is funny. Rather than childishly pathetic.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
Interesting, Kyle…how do you reconcile this statement:
Chilao, i think every citizen in the country has a responsibility to keep up with current and relevant events in order to ensure that our gov’t is kept in check
with this one:
also, i generally support bush as our president, and i agree with his actions on most issues
Given that Bush has substantially increased government intrusion in our private lives and has exploded goverment spending to new and unprecedented levels, how in the world can you say “keep govt in check” with a straight face when you support a man who is so obviously interested in doing the opposite?
By Jack
June 23, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
Ok, for a second there I thought John was going to turn straight.
Mara, there’s always room under my bridge. hee hee
By Bob
June 23, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
72J, Wow, I really thought I’d had enough of this exchange, but it’s fairly entertaining. I didn’t really “phrase it any way I wanted”, I used exactly the words I needed to convey my thoughts. Your assertion that “…neither anecdotal evidence nor appeals to authority are acceptable means to prove OR support one’s thesis” is just plain wrong. This is not even a gray area, it’s black-and-white. There is a HUGE difference between supporting vs proving a thesis. Two men walking hand-in-hand at the Gay Pride parade does not prove that they are gay, but it certainly lends support to the idea that they could be. No amount of clever repartee or verbal sparring will change the fact that your statement (regarding acceptable means of supporting a thesis) is just wrong. Methinks you know this but don’t want to admit it.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
Actual GOB - does that mean you won’t be joining us at the bowling alley? Awwwwww :^(
Kyle - seems like many celebrities have a lot of free time on their hands and they decide to speak out on issues just to get attention, without giving any serious thought or investigation to what they are saying.
Have you ever considered that with all that time on their hands they do give it serious thought and study? That perhaps their investigation has led them to actually believe what they’re saying? Could it possibly be that it isn’t themselves they’re trying to bring attention to, but to the issue that they are voicing concern about? You don’t have to be an bubble-headed bleach-blond to disagree with a lot of the Republican agenda. Nor do you need to be “fringe” to want this administration to be held accountable for ignoring the law (re: bushs signing statements),its assault on the Bill of Rights (1st amendment, 4th amendment, etc) and corruption (Halliburtons no-bid contract brought their earnings up 600%…600%!)
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Everyone should be informed about issues, except people who live in Hollywood, who are not entitled to opinions like the rest of us?
$5.15 I think, not been a wage issue for me for years.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
or perhaps the Boss can say it better than I -
“Springsteen was asked if getting flack about his political views, such as backing John Kerry in 2004, made him wonder if musicians should try so hard to be taken seriously on topical issues.
“They should let Ann Coulter do it instead?” he mused, with a chuckle. Then he said, “You can turn on the idiots rambling on cable television every night, and they say musicians shouldn’t speak up? It’s insane, it’s funny,” he said, laughing.
He called politics “an organic part of what I’m doing. … It’s called common sense. I don’t even see it as politics at this point”
By GOB
June 23, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Mara - I can still join you for some bowling, althought the fake poster was right, I havent been in years.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
Jack - thanks darlin’! It’s always nice to know there’s a place under the bringe :^)
Chilao - In 1968 the federal wage stood at 86% of the wage necessary to lift a worker and their family of four to the official poverty line. Today it represents less than 64% of that “living wage.” The minimum wage (which is, as you said, currently at $5.15 an hour) would need to be raised to $8.20 an hour simply to meet the federal poverty level. In many higher-cost regions a true living wage is substantially higher perhaps even as high as $18 per hour. This is just to meet cost-of-living…
By Stan
June 23, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Oh yes, Bruce Springsteen is the ultimate authority on politics! Maybe HE should run for office with the theme song,”Baby I Was Born To Run”.
The Hollywood crowd has no place in politics (except for Arnold of course).
By Jack
June 23, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
woof woof
Where’s my fan? Ya gotta love summer!
By The72John
June 23, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
Well, obviously nothing I say will convince Bob of the error of his statements. Bob, I suggest you research both of these fallacies - perhaps you will learn something about what does and does not constitute appropriate evidence for an argument.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
Stan - how about Charlton Heston? Should he keep his mouth shut? Or Clint Eastwood? Kelsey Grammer, Chuck Norris, Heather Locklear, and Ron Silver? How about Alex Rodriguez, Dale Jr., The Ultimate Warrior, or Tommy Lasorda? just an excerpt from - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListofRepublican_celebrities
Guess we can tell all these Republicans to shut up then, can’t we…
By GOB
June 23, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Mara - I think we would all be a little better off if we took the Ultimate Warrior’s advice every now and then…Ahh, that takes me back to my childhood…
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
The Hollywood crowd has no place in politics (except for Arnold of course).
ah, ah bright light goes off Hollywood folk only entitled to be in politics or even have political opinions, is when they are conservative. ah, ah bright light goes off
By Master Baiter
June 23, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
How ‘bout a fun and rousing round of religious discussion this afternoon. Come on…you know you want to…..
~chuckle~
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
meant “Bright light goes ON” (dang keyboards..LOL)
By Monica
June 23, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
Why are my posts not going through?
On this hot summer day…here’s a good question for everyone (since we’ve alredy discussed pudding pops).
What’s everyone’s favorite flavor of ice cream?
Mine is strawberry.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Mint Chocolate Chip.
Though I do have a fondness for Pumpkin Pie flavor. My grannie used to make it for us in one of those ancient hand-cranked icecream makers. mmmmmmmm
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
72John, in response to your 1:51 post, i don’t think my two posts that your referenced contradict each other at all. i do keep up with current and relevant events that are affecting the country, including those actions taken by bush. with repect to the intrusion into our private lives (i suspect your talking about nsa and and the current news that the administration has also been monitoring international banking transactions), i have thought about it and come to the conclusion that it is necessary due to the post 9/11 world we live in. had these methods been in place pre-9/11 the attacks may have been avoided. just yesterday 7 men were arrested in miami and suspected of planning a terrorist attack in chicago - how do you think they were discovered? i also think the extent of the intrusion into everybodies daily lives is highly exaggerated. only suspected terrorists and those in contact with them are being monitored - not your average american. that being said, i do have some issues on the amount bush has spent while in offie. that is why i was sure to say that i agree with MOST (not all) of what bush does. much of the spending can be attributed to 9/11 and also the war in iraq, but he still spends far more than your typical conservative - which i don’t necessarily like. however, all in all, i agree with MOST of bush’s actions. there, all that said and i still keep a straight face.
Mara, yes i have considered that some have given it serious thought and actually believe what they are saying, that is why i said i am sure there are exceptions to my broad statement. also, i think both repubs and dems use celebrities to push their agenda - just more celebrities tend to go with the liberal crowd. if a celebrity has a legitimate point to which they have done actual research into the issue, then by all means they should be heard - but i don’t agree when either party uses a celebrity as some sort of puppet - its insulting b/c it seems as though the politicians assume the public will act like nascar fans and be “brand loyal” just cause a celeb supports them.
By Julia
June 23, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
Hi Monica! Good question for such a hot day.
Definitely anything chocolate. But there’s nothing like homemade vanilla. (All other vanilla you can keep-just doesn’t taste the same as homemade.)
We used to make chocolate ice cream with Nestle Quick and coconut and walnuts. Mmmmmmmmmm…..boy was it good!
By Chilao
June 23, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this
Monica - strange as it sounds, vanilla, since so many different toppings go well with it(chopped pecans, chocolate, maple syrup, once-frozen strawberries) plus it makes great root beer or cream soda floats.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
i suspect your talking about nsa and and the current news that the administration has also been monitoring international banking transactions
Actually, I was referring to far more than these particular incidents, though yes - they are part of a pattern - one that eschews the use of the FISA courts, declares exemption from laws about surveilance, etc. There’s also the Patriot Act, and other similar incidents. Concerns about the Bush Administration and its misuse of power have existed long before the mainstream media broke stories about phone monitoring.
Hmm. How much liberty and privacy are you willing to sacrifice? At what point do you say “enough”? And just for the record, Kyle, information about the 9/11 hijackers and their potential actions was available to various members of the intelligence community prior to 9/11, and it was ignored by the higher-ups who were far more concerned about finding damning evidence in Iraq than they were about Al-qaeda. The break-down in communication between agencies that existed then continues to exist.
just yesterday 7 men were arrested in miami and suspected of planning a terrorist attack in chicago - how do you think they were discovered?
Because they were idiots, Kyle. They paraded around in turbans and uniforms and guarded warehouses while telling their neighbors they had devoted their bodies to Allah. Then they went on the internet and contacted an FBI agent masqureading as an Al-Qaeda member. Illicit government spying had nothing to do with it - just legitimate old-fashioned intelligence work.
i also think the extent of the intrusion into everybodies daily lives is highly exaggerated. only suspected terrorists and those in contact with them are being monitored - not your average american
Ah yes, the oldest justification for ignoring a misuse of power - it isn’t being directed at you. Well…that may be true. For now. It’s next year that worries me, and the year after that.
By Baskin Robbins
June 23, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
We all know what 72’s favorite is….come on, let’s all say it together….TOOTIE FRUITY!!!!!
By Julia
June 23, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this
I think 72JOHN is a cutie pie. I have a secret crush on him. I think he’s hott!!!
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
We all know what 72’s favorite is….come on, let’s all say it together….TOOTIE FRUITY!!!!!
Ah yes, our trite handle-changer strikes again.
Oh, I see…tootie fruity, because gay men are fruits. Gotcha. Original, really. I promise, I bet you’re the first person to come up with that one.
By Randy
June 23, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
In response to Julia posts yesterday afternoon. The post at 3:38 hit the nail on the head, the only religion they have a problem with is Christianity. Why? It’s the only true one! The truth hurts! etc. Thanks Julia for the support.
By Mara
June 23, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
Back off Julia-I saw him first!!! Bee-otch!!! :>)
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this
Hmmm…I think that handle-changer has a crush on me, since he seems to be fixated on me and who I have a date with.
Sorry, I don’t date the chicken-sh!t.
By the REAL Julia
June 23, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
What the heck is going on? That last post as Julia was NOT me!!!
Please do not post under my name again. Good grief folks-grow up.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
In response to Julia posts yesterday afternoon. The post at 3:38 hit the nail on the head, the only religion they have a problem with is Christianity. Why? It’s the only true one! The truth hurts! etc. Thanks Julia for the support.
Umm, no Randy. We have a problem with Christians like you because you make statements like this, you ignorant moron, and beause you aren’t capable of letting other people live their lives without interfering with them and telling everyone how sinful they are and how perfect you are, you dumb a* cracker hick.
By Randy
June 23, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this
Note to all the Christians on this site. An example of how stubborn people can be, I buy foreclosure houses from people who are about to lose everything and ruin their credit for 10 years. Some let me help them, most are in total denial until it’s to late and they go down with the ship. It’s the same with alot of people in this life, you tell them how Jesus can help, but they are just not going to do it. Their penalty is much more severe than the ones losing their house.
By the REAL Julia
June 23, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this
Randy-I guess 72 John just proved your point. :)
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
Oh, I see…so Randy, our perfect “Christian” profits from the woes of others. Let me guess - you buy houses from the financially destitute at a fraction of their market value and then re-sell them for a substantial profit, leaving your victims behind you…I’ve read about your “industry”. It’s considered predatory by many people.
Well, well. Randy is truly an example of Christian love and charity.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
Randy-I guess 72 John just proved your point. :)
So…you agree with Randy that the only POSSIBLE reason that people could object to Christianity is because it’s “The only true religion”?
You…don’t think it has to do with the actions of many Christians in this country, with your judgemental attitudes, your self-righteous condemnation of those different from you, your pathetic victim complex, or your complete disrespect for all other religions?
You are actually so blind that you would believe…Randy…and his utterly unsupportable conclusions than admit that many of the followers of your faith are as bad in their way as the Taliban?
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
72John, to tell you the truth, i’m not sure if i ever heard a good explanation of why the administration didn’t go to the fisa courts - that never did sit right with me. i mean, they had 72 hours after the facts to take their actions to the court to be approved, right? i never said the administration was perfect. as for the patriot act, i agree that it is flawed and was put together in a rush right after 9/11 - but i still think with some minor adjustments it can be a legitimate, effective, and constitutional way to fight terrorism. are you for dropping the act completely? what are the other “similar incidents” you are talking about?
-how much liberty and privacy am i willing to sacrifice?
if it at all helps the gov’t prevent another attack on american soil, i’ll let the gov’t keep tabs on every phone conversation i make. i’m not doing anything illegal, and i could care less if the gov’t knows that i called my grandma last week to tell her happy bday. once a person has been given complete privacy and liberty, i suspect its only natural to have a negative response when anything or anyone threatens to take it away, even if its just to the smallest degree. but as much as i know it sound like a slogan or a catch phrase, the post 9/11 world is not the same as the past, and we have to adapt in order to protect ourselves. i understand that once some privacy is given up its a slippery slope to determine where it stops - but i fear that if we don’t allow our gov’t to take these steps now, they will be unable to defend us against an enemy that certianly isn’t playing by any rules or standards. the mere piece of mind you get when you are certian that personal info is absolutely secure means very little if your dead, and i would give up some of that piece of mind to help protect myself and others
-ok, the people arrested in miami was a bad example - yes, they were idiots. but that doesn’t mean everyone making terrorist plans will be just as stupid
-about the “oldest justification for a misuse in power,” i agree it is a slippery slope and it has the potential to be abused in the years to come - but if you don’t allow the gov’t to take certian action now, many americans may be killed.
By The72John
June 23, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
if it at all helps the gov’t prevent another attack on american soil, i’ll let the gov’t keep tabs on every phone conversation i make. i’m not doing anything illegal, and i could care less if the gov’t knows that i called my grandma last week to tell her happy bday. once a person has been given complete privacy and liberty, i suspect its only natural to have a negative response when anything or anyone threatens to take it away, even if its just to the smallest degree. but as much as i know it sound like a slogan or a catch phrase, the post 9/11 world is not the same as the past, and we have to adapt in order to protect ourselves
Ben Franklin, Kyle. Ben Franklin.
By the REAL Julia
June 23, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
72 John-why do you find it so hard (if not impossible) to respond to Randy without the name calling and insults? It hardly proves any of your points but makes you seem irrational and overly emotional. Would you be having these heated words with a Muslim?
By Kyle
June 23, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
yes, 72John, i know mr. franklin’s comment on this issue - but he didn’t live in a world with terrorist that stop at nothing to kill you - times have changed, unfortunately