AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2006 > June > 01 > Entry
Does what women wear contribute to sexual assault?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
A Zulu man recently claimed it was his duty to rape a woman he said exposed her thigh in a knee-length skirt. In the Parisian ghettos, gang rapes are a well-known danger. In South Africa, an estimated one million women are raped every year.
I’m wondering. Did the victims wear low-cut blouses?
So long as we’re entertaining tripe, what about the estimated five to ten percent of men who are sexually assaulted in the United States? Were they showing too much leg?
Anyone who believes scantily-clad women are somehow responsible for sexual assault may want to consider the word “subjective.” For they would no doubt find it preposterous that many devout Muslim men think a woman without a headscarf is asking to be raped. But there is no difference between an exposed ankle and a midriff other than the degree to which women are sexualized in different cultures.
Scandinavian women know this reality well. The Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that a disturbing 65 percent of rapes were committed by immigrants, a predominantly Muslim minority population. If what a woman wears incites some natural drive for men to rape, then surely Norwegian men, being men, would rape at the same rate as Muslim men. But they don’t. That’s because they were raised to view women as equals, not their personal property.
Some Muslim men raped at higher rates than Norwegian men because of their degraded view of women. It has nothing to do with “natural” aggressive male drives incited by provocative clothing. If clothing really mattered, devout Muslim women wouldn’t be sexually assaulted. But rape abounds with scant legal recourse for its victims in Arabic countries.
Why should we ask women to change their behavior out of fear, rather than fight cultural bias?
It’s heartbreaking how many women still internalize self-hatred. They cover their bodies, fearing assault and believe they are the problem. Yet, I don’t hear people telling African-Americans to avert their eyes when white folk walk down the street. That would be racist. Why is sexism so acceptable? Because we allow it. Not because women wear low-cut blouses.
Rebuttal
Rape-prevention groups highlight several factors that increase the risk of sexual assault — including wearing skimpy clothing — and it’s foolish to pretend that they don’t exist. To be clear: women are never “responsible” for being raped. Nothing excuses the crime of sexual assault. But it is not “tripe” to discuss factors that contribute to the likelihood of being victimized: it is vital. Because there’s a major disconnect between the message that women think they are sending with their clothes choices, and the one that men are receiving.
I’ve spent the last few years researching and writing a series of books that help women, men, and teen girls understand things that we just tend not to ‘get’ about the opposite sex. And in my interviews and surveys of thousands of men for the first book, For Women Only, I was disconcerted to realize that women’s dress was a huge area of misunderstanding.
Women and teenage girls might wear a trendy outfit that is tight or skimpy and think we look “cute.” But almost every guy said something like, “’Cute’ is not in my vocabulary.” Most males, in fact, said they were tempted to mentally picture that woman totally unclothed – and many do. And even worse, they believe she’s dressing that way for that exact reason.
Other researchers have found the same thing. Vicki Courtney, founder of online magazine VirtuousReality.com, told me that “many girls and women unknowingly set themselves up as targets for abuse” simply by not understanding the message their clothes are sending. She describes one experiment where average teenage guys were brought to a mall, and asked their impression of the standard, trendy-but-skimpy clothes the girls were wearing. The guys all believed, as one put it, that those outfits were “invitations” that said “come and get it.”
A 2005 Amnesty International survey even found that one-quarter of respondents believed a woman would be totally or partially responsible for being raped if she was wearing “sexy or revealing clothing.”
While I disagree, and believe it is the man’s responsibility to make the right choice, shouldn’t women be informed and mature enough to make good choices, too? Let’s hold ourselves to a higher standard than saying “come and get it.”
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Comments
By cartoon sex xxx
June 4, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this
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By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 08:04 AM | Link to this
I’ve never bought into this absurd type of argument: that women should be held responsible for men’s inability to act civilized.
The analogy I’ve seen that works best is this: If I go walking through Piedmont Park loudly counting out $20 bills, I’m not being safe and sensible. I’m increasing the likelihood that someone will try to mug me.
But that does NOT, to ANY degree, excuse the mugger for his criminal act. It does NOT put any percentage of the blame on me for the crime. It’s still 100% the mugger’s fault for committing the crime.
Should people take sensible precautions depending on the situation they’re in? Should they be aware of their circumstances and surroundings? Of course, just like we should all lock our doors when we leave home. But the burglar is still the one to blame for the crime.
Awareness is a good thing, but the lack of it can never be used to lessen the perpetrator’s responsibility for criminal acts, much less shift the blame to the victim.
By Meg
June 5, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this
Both Diane and Shaunti make valid points. However, they have both completely missed the larger issue at hand - the message popular culture teaches young women about their bodies - and that same message that is taught to men.
Take a close look at any television show staff photo. The men are all dressed well, trousers and conservative shirts or jackets. Then look at the women. Mini-minis, the lowest cut tops, as much skin exposed as possible. The message is crystal clear - men are valued as men, women are valued for their bodies.
Then spend a half-hour or so in the parking lot of a local high school, watch the young men and women as they leave school. You see exactly the same difference in dress. Young, vulnerable women of 15, 16, 17 years of age are driven by what “popular culture” tells them about dress and appearance; their peers, biased by the same pressure, reinforce the expectations. It is an endless loop.
It is a frightening world for a young woman to grow up in, here and across the world. Until progress against the objectification of women occurs worldwide, both in our culture and entertainment, our young women will continue to dress in a manner which degrades them as humans, and our young men will continue to learn to treat them as objects, to mistreat and abuse.
By Lyrazel
June 5, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this
If Shaunti’s logic is true Men are so uncontrollable they should receive ZERO blame for a rape crime! It becomes the WOMANS FAULT FOR BEING RAPED! Thus you have a victim being blamed for a crime of violence against her person! Way to go Shaunti! You blame the victim! That is a new low!
Look at Darfur—you dont see many women romping in the Paris Hilton look but rape is a pandemic—so where does Shaunti statistic merit? Only in America? Thus are malls safe for women to shop in if males are present due to the fact they pose a hazardous threat for being provoked by a Victoria Secret mannequin? What about the rapes that happen in churches by ministers to altar boys or nuns? Are men just uncontrollable with their urges so when the 67 year old woman is raped in her home—its because she was too provocative?
Diane, were the rapes of the Norwegian statistic—were they Norwegian women or were they immigrant (muslim) women? You leave out PRIME information again from your arguments. Do they attack what is behind a burka more than who might fight back?
Rape is not the victims fault!!
By Dwight Hunter
June 5, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
I guess this year’s trip to the beach is off. I mean if a high skirt or low blouse is going to incite rape, then a beach full of swimsuits is an invitation to a rapefest. But that doesn’t really happen,does it? In fact, we expect people to be just as civil and respectful to each other on the beach as we do in the church. That dynamic should not change whether the current fashion is covered from head to toe or naked as a newborn. A survey of men who attribute some sinister sexual message from how someone else is dressed is not indicative of attitudes towards dress codes. Rather it is indicative of a societal mindset that does not put enough emphasis on the concepts of self-worth and personal responsibility. It is true that men are and should be attracted to the opposite sex, and how a person looks, including how they are dressed, does have a bearing on their attractiveness. But why does it have to go any further than that?
When are we, as a species, finally going to care enough about ourselves that the welfare of our fellow human beings (remember love thy nighbor as thyself) becomes of paramount importance to us? I am a man who is raising both a son and a daughter. I teach both my children to have the highest respect for themselves and by their thoughts and deeds to compel that same respect from everyone they encounter. Explicit in that is the requirement that they also give the same respect to everyone they meet. If we would all just adhere to that simple standard, the deviants in our society would quickly identify themselves and make it that much easier to cull the flock.
By Raymundo Ayala
June 5, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this
Isn’t rape really a power thing and has nothing to do with the physical appearance?
As for what Shaunti said, I think that the way women dress today needs to change. I find it so much more attractive when a woman does not have her top cut down to her navel or a skirt that stops just below her taco. Leave something to my imagination.
By Jack
June 5, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this
Rapists should be castrated with a rusty hacksaw even if the victim is prancing around half naked.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this
There is nothing shameful about women’s bodies, nor is it shameful for a female to be sexually active. What a stupid AZZZ BLOG topic.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this
Whiley will have a field day with this one!
I think the argument that Shaunti provides could have the potential to possibly hold a small amount of water, if and only if, ALL men had the propensity to rape. Just because a man may be more visually stimulated, does not make it valid as an excuse for rape.
I think this would be the equivalent of saying you should not buy a nice house as this would attract thieves.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure which is more offensive - Shaunti’s suggestion that women invite rape or assault upon themselves, or her assertion that men are so mindless that they can’t control themselves around the scantily-clad.
Granted, it’s not women I’m attracted to, but I have personally never felt an uncontrollable urge to hurl myself at a barely-dressed attractive man. I can’t imagine that things would be any different were I straight.
Once again, Shaunti is giving men an “out” for bad behavior based on her antiquated and Puritanical notions and her patriarchal view of the world. Men are to be excused for responding to their “needs” and women are to be chastised for “making” them do it. Isn’t this the rationale used by fundamentalist Islam to clothe women from head-to-toe in black robes?
The more Shaunti writes, the more I wonder why she hasn’t moved to Saudi Arabia…surely she’d be more comfortable there.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
Rape is as much about power as it is about sex…
By Archie
June 5, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this
I hope I didn’t post twice but I will say that Shanti’s response seems designed to cause controversy. Shanti, as a man I can say that I will not rape a woman regardless as to what she wears or does not wear. A woman can walk around me naked and I won’t even touch her unless she asks me to. Women do dress in certain ways to attract men and that needs to be acknowledged but no decent man assumes the woman is asking to be raped. It is insulting to imply that most men can’t control themselves around women. What women wear does not contribute to sexual assault, period.
By Netbanker
June 5, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
What is disturbing about this discussion is the complete lack of acknowledgement that ultimately rape is not about sex, but about power and control. That is not to say that date rape by horny men (who are also usually intoxicated) doesn’t happen, but for the most part the act rape is not sexual in nature. Forcing someone else into acts that are performed voluntarily with a partner one cares about is not an attempt to have that same type of intimacy with the victim. The purpose is to degrade the victim and to control them.
When this is acknowledged the clothing of the victim is a moot point. This explains the high incidence of rape in Darfur pointed out by Lyrazel or the rapes in Middle Eastern countries where conservative dress by women is the general rule. Look at the reaction to raped Muslim women…honor killings. A woman is overpowered by several men, raped, and then her family can kill her under Quranic law because she ‘dishonored’ the family?! Excuse me! Isn’t it the MEN who dishonored another human being? Shouldn’t they be castrated instead of the woman, who is the victim, being punished? It seems as though there is still a bit of blame the victim mentality going on.
All that said, I do not want to discount Shaunti’s point about clothing styles do send a message. I recall about 15 years when Casual Friday was introduced in the mortgage company where I worked. Some of the young women in the next department took their dress wayyyy too far. They were more appropriately dressed to go clubbing than to work or anywhere else during the day for that matter. It goes back to the axiom to dress for the job you want rather than the one you have…and hopefully that job isn’t working Stuart Avenue (aka. Metropolitan Parkway).
Which leads me to another more obscure observation. We don’t have the same issues with men because for the most part there are not correspondingly scanty clothing styles for men. Our wardrobe choices are extremely limited as compared to the choices that women have available. Were it acceptable for men to wear more open clothing such as women would this someone level the playing field or somewhat neutralize the scanty-clothing-you-ask-for-it mentality?
By Jack
June 5, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this
Shanti should go live with the Amish.
Billy. I agree with you on that.
By Netbanker
June 5, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
I have personally never felt an uncontrollable urge to hurl myself at a barely-dressed attractive man REALLY?! You’ve never had that overwhelming attraction strong enough to overcome one’s fear of rejection so you go for it to see if you might get the attractive man? Granted if the hurlee says no thank you then that’s the end of it, but never?
By Netbanker
June 5, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this
Oops..that should be ‘would this someWHAT level the playing field’
By Billy
June 5, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this
Perhaps by wearing “slutty” clothes you are inviting leers and such. Perhaps the constant display of flesh leads to the objectification of women. Perhaps. I know when I see women dressed a particular way, I often think to myself that they do not have the best self-esteem in the world.
No, it does not absolve the rapist in any way. But, like the “counting money while walking in the park” argument, it doesn’t hurt to wear a little extra. Be smart, play it safe
By Chilao
June 5, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
So if I do not have burglar bars on all of my windows, it is MY fault if I get burglarized? Is that the logic here?
Since I do not think I should be burglarized simply because it IS possible to throw a rock through the window, and be off with things before there is an response to the alarm, I can hardly think it is okay to rape, simply because I found her appealing, she was there, exposing some flesh, etc.
And like the only good burglar is a dead one, how about the only good rapist is .. well you get the idea. LOL
I can find the woman very desirable when she is FULLY clothed, but that does not entitle me to rape her, does it? Just because I found her attractive?
By Billy
June 5, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this
The mention of date rape reminds me…most rape victims know their attackers. And do we even have a good idea of the number of date rapes that occur? There’s definitely something to thinking about women as objects, but that objectification runs deeper that a tank top and a navel piercing. It’s systemic and pervades society. It is not about the clothes worn by the women, but the men who aren’t raised to respect them. Raise the boys right, and they won’t rape.
I mean, I wouldn’t have sex with a girl who wanted to if it was obvious that her being plastered was the only reason. It’s not in me to take advantage of that situation.
By E. Lewis
June 5, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this
In my lifetime, I’ve known 2 “women” who were raped. I say women because one of them was a 13 years old girl who was walking home from Sunday school. The other was a teacher.
Did either of these women dress inappropritely, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Explain to me how either of these sexual assault victim was sending a message to their rapists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By The72John
June 5, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
I have personally never felt an uncontrollable urge to hurl myself at a barely-dressed attractive man REALLY?! You’ve never had that overwhelming attraction strong enough to overcome one’s fear of rejection so you go for it to see if you might get the attractive man? Granted if the hurlee says no thank you then that’s the end of it, but never
Obviously, I was trying to draw a comparison between Shaunti’s assumption that men will be so overcome by lust that they will assualt a woman sexually. I don’t think a pick-up attempt counts :-)
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
Side note: … “taco”?
By lozen
June 5, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this
Brian, “I’ve never bought into this absurd type of argument: that women should be held responsible for men’s inability to act civilized.” Yes! Net, your comment says it all: “What is disturbing about this discussion is the complete lack of acknowledgement that ultimately rape is not about sex, but about power and control.” Another point is, if we really followed the bible in this country as conservative muslims follow the Quran, we’d be stoning women for getting raped too! Thank goodness our culture isn’t based on christianity! Young women sometimes make mistakes - they’re allowed in the process of growing up. It’s not appropriate to go to class in shorts with your bottom hanging out an inch, but that doesn’t mean they’re asking to be raped! Meg, you are so right about the difference in men’s and women’s clothing. And Whiley is right too that female bodies aren’t shameful and females having sex isn’t shameful. Shaunti is amazing. I’m sure she believes females should be the guardians of virtue and that our society began it’s slide to extinction when women got the birth control pill and could have sex just as much and with as little consequence as men always did! Blame women, control women, turn back the clock on woman… a lot of religious conservatives think that would save the country!
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
72John: I think Whiley (among others) might differ with you on that last point… at the risk of sounding like Justin, I know that some women consider any unwanted attention (including pick-up attempts) to be intolerable.
But most are adult enough to handle it without equating it to rape, which is a far more serious offense. Women don’t have to be treated as victims, and they don’t have to PLAY the victim either. Recognizing both of those points would go a long way toward equality in our society.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this
You all covered the issue so well there’s not much left to say…
The idea in and of itself is absurd. It doesn’t matter what message a man may think is being conveyed by a womans clothing choice…”no” means “NO”. I don’t care if the woman is dressed in JLo’s Grammy gown (y’know the green Versace one?), or flipping her skirt like Paris Hilton…NOBODY asks to be forced to have sex.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this
The QUESTION that should be asked is WHY do men rape?
By The72John
June 5, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
72John: I think Whiley (among others) might differ with you on that last point… at the risk of sounding like Justin, I know that some women consider any unwanted attention (including pick-up attempts) to be intolerable
That may be, but doesn’t that strike you as being as irrational an attitude as Shaunti’s? No one is hurt by a “I would like to get to know you better”, except maybe the person who is rejected. As my mother always says - you have to know who owns that problem.
Now, I don’t mean harrassment, just to be clear.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this
Brian, could you clarify the context of a woman “playing the victim”? I’m assuming that you are refering to the women who complain about harrassment when men ask them for dates? How many times does she have to say “no thanks” before it actually does become harrassment? If a guy, all unwittingly, approaches a woman (who’s turned down 8 or 10 would-be suiters already) and asks her out, would it be unreasonable for her to feel harrassed and annoyed…even if it was an accumulation of annoyances and not any one individual? Is she “playing” a victim?
By Mara
June 5, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Good question, Whiley. Why do people rape?
By Renee
June 5, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
If a guy, all unwittingly, approaches a woman (who’s turned down 8 or 10 would-be suiters already) and asks her out, would it be unreasonable for her to feel harrassed and annoyed…even if it was an accumulation of annoyances and not any one individual?
She may feel harrassed and/or annoyed, however, that would not be the reality. This is based upon the information that the 8-10 “would-be suitors” were all different.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this
Good question, Whiley. Why do people rape?
Thank you for the neutralization of gender in that statement. Some people are of the opinion that women are all innocent victims and that all men are violent animals. It’s better to examine the reality of the situation and realize that humans commit violent crimes against each other. It serves no purpose to live in a fantasy land where the big bad wolf always has a p3nis.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
It’s better to examine the reality of the situation and realize that humans commit violent crimes against each other. For instance, the would-be robber that the ex-marine killed was a pregnant teen…
By Netbanker
June 5, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
Just checking, John.
BC…There was a recent ‘weird news’ article about the Mayor of Sante Fe trying to get a business license yanked because the name ‘The Pink Taco’ is a euphemism for va gina and the mayor found the name offensive. Apparently it isn’t a well known one because no one I know ever heard it before although they all chuckled about it. If it was a true euphemisn what does that say about “Taco Cabana” on the corner of Piedmont and Chesire Bridge? Especially since it’s painted pink!!
Whiley…Excellent Question!! Rape of males by other males after battle or by the conquering force was a long accepted act in ancient times. Apparently it is still considered a loss of one’s manhood in Arab cultures to be raped by another male. This is especially interesting given that it is a homosexual act in a culture that treats homosexuality harshly yet does not treat rapists harshly. If anything it is a tacit acknowledgement that rape is about power and control as well as an acknowledgement that arab cultures value strength and punish weakness. In context of honor killings is this really a statement on punishing a weakness? If the woman had been stronger she would not have been raped. (Please take note that I’m not condoning or supporting this view only questioning)
By Mara
June 5, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this
Renee - I appreciate the distinction that you made between feeling harrassed and actually being harrassed, but again, if one feels harrassed would it be “playing the victim” to react as if one was actually being bothered?
By Archie
June 5, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
As a man I could not tell anyone here why men rape so it would be a pointless topic question. The fact is that most men don’t rape anybody.
“Women don’t have to be treated as victims, and they don’t have to PLAY the victim either. Recognizing both of those points would go a long way toward equality in our society.”
I agree with those statements Brian. There’s a person here at work that always claims someone is victimizing her but the truth is that she has some mental problems that have become clear to me the last few months. As men we will try to “get over” on women using words and charm but most of us will not ever rape, but some women want attention and will be very slick about their approach. I have a wife,mother,and daughter so I have no sympathy for a man who rapes a woman.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
Archie, what’s the connection between seeking validation of her femininity via admiration and/or attention from men and the act of rape? Isn’t that getting pretty close to the premise of the topic, that attracting the interest of men (through one’s choice of fashion) is almost a tacit invitation to sex?
By Mara
June 5, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
Way off topic but I laughed so hard reading this that I couldn’t bear not to share LOL!!
from Reuters -
A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal’s enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday.
“The man shouted ‘God will save me, if he exists’, lowered himself by a rope into the enclosure, took his shoes off and went up to the lions,” the official said.
“A lioness went straight for him, knocked him down and severed his carotid artery.”
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this
While I will always agree that people should make every effort to be aware of every situation they are in I also agree that people are not responsible for the crimes that other people commit. Note I said crime. If I kill you because you are trying to rape me then I have not committed a crime. You have.
But here’s the point Shaunti made that I KEEP returning to and it just p** me off:
“Women and teenage girls might wear a trendy outfit that is tight or skimpy and think we look “cute.” But almost every guy said something like, “’Cute’ is not in my vocabulary.” Most males, in fact, said they were tempted to mentally picture that woman totally unclothed – and many do. And even worse, they believe she’s dressing that way for that exact reason.”
Notice how the woman is held responsible for the THOUGHTS of the man? That is complete bull.
Secondly, I agree there is this disconnect between how women view their appearance and how men view it. Some of this is natural. But some is societal. Meaning that we, as women, don’t notice our own boobs so much, often forget they’re even there. Men…..different. That’s rather natural. However, for us to hold our appearance as “cute” and men to think we’re dressing that way so they’ll imagine us nude indicates that society has taught objectification of women is accepted in the general sense.
Don’t get me wrong, objectification of a person is fine in a very individual and personal sense. In other words, a wife would like for her husband to view her as a sexual object as well as mother to his children and co-bread-winner and life-partner. And vice versa.
But a woman does not appreciate nor deserve for any man on the street to outwardly act on any wrong-headed, societally taught objectification he holds of her.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this
The Pink Taco uproar wasn’t in Santa Fe; it was in Scottsdale Arizona.
By Jack
June 5, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
Mara. As the saying goes…you can’t fix stupid.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
Why do some men rape? Why do some men kill their wives and/or their children - and why does this seem to happen every day? Is it possible for a woman to rape a man? Using some kind of implement I guess it would be….
Mara, we probably shouldn’t laugh - the guy had to be nuts.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Isn’t that getting pretty close to the premise of the topic, that attracting the interest of men (through one’s choice of fashion) is almost a tacit invitation to sex?
I think we’re being dishonest if we say that women (or men) DON’T dress provocatively in order to attract the attention of the opposite (or same) sex. The questions are A) Why should women be censured for dressing this way when men aren’t and B) Why should someone assume that provocative dress is an invitation to sex
We DO dress to impress, for the most part. People who don’t care about impressing generally don’t dress up. So, let’s not kid ourselves, this IS about sex. The real question is why are women expected to be the guardians of men’s self-control? If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
That story is hilarious!!
To answer your question, Mara, I think it very well could be. A woman could feel harassed when NO harassment has taken place, thus playing the “victim” role, when they are not actually a victim of anything, but their own interpretations of a situation.
In the scenario you gave earlier, how would a woman be a victim?
By Mara
June 5, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Jack, do you remember that old joke about the guy on his roof in a flood who refuses rescue from several different sources, insisting all the while that God would save him? The punchline being “Well I sent a swamp buggy, a boat, and a helicopter!” LOL!!
By Justin
June 5, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Since I have daughters, I am very concerned about the clothing they wear. At school, they wear uniforms. It is getting increasingly harder to find little girls clothing that is not just a scaled down version of women’s clothes. I buy little boy shorts for them to wear because the shorts are longer. The little girl shorts are too, too short!
I am also concerned about how women are portrayed in videos, etc. It disturbs me every day that my daughters will have to grow up in a society that views them as little more than something to view. I teach them they can aspire to any career, but I am prepared for the day when I have to teach them reality.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
John - The real question is why are women expected to be the guardians of men’s self-control
well said, m’friend. Well said.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
Jennifer, you are so right. Yes, females are held responsible for the THOUGHTS of men. Women were burned at the stake all over Europe for making men think about sex! Females are covered from head to toe to keep men from thinking about sex! Females were always defined by men (and the definition wasn’t great!) up until the women’s movement. We then began defining ourselves based on the validation of our experiences by other women in consciousness raising groups and books written by women. Well, some of us did, there are still plenty of women like Shaunti around. When I think about the crap I read and believed before the women’s movement… I worried about myself for years because a bunch of men with M.D.s said I was supposed to have a type of orgasm I never had. (Of course they said all women should have them in the way men enjoyed most!) Once women began talking, it turned out no woman had the “right” kind of orgasm! That’s just one of many, many examples.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
So Justin, are you saying that in reality your daughters can’t aspire to any career they choose? Why not? Universities graduate women doctors, lawyers, philosophers, chemists, journalists, etc. etc. every day. What careers will they be barred from because some media portray women in as hypersexualized objects?
By The72John
June 5, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this
Once women began talking, it turned out no woman had the “right” kind of orgasm! That’s just one of many, many examples
You mean…there’s more than one kind? That is SO unfair.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
The focus needs to be on raising boys correctly. Not suppressing our daughters.
It starts with manners. Teach your boys early that it is NOT ok to verbally harrass a female you do not know. It is not OK to approach a female & comment on her body parts. It’s not ok to sleep with muliple women at the same time. It’s not ok to hire a women to dance naked at a college party, it does not make you a man. It makes you look like a fool.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this
You mean…there’s more than one kind? That is SO unfair.
So completely unfair. Sometimes, my wife’s will start. A few seconds later, I’ll start mine. A few seconds later, mine ends. A few seconds later, hers ends.
Not fair in the least…
By Been2VirtuousReality
June 5, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this
This is off VirtuousReality.com—————->I realize the clothes I wear are a reflection of my heart and my intentions. I will not wear clothes of a revealing nature that may cause my christian brothers to stumble spiritually. I will base my clothing on this question: If Jesus were to return today would I be comfortable coming face to face with him wearing this outfit…...
Why would Jesus be concerned with an outfit? Ladies be sure when you die being gang-raped your shoes match your purse!!!
Anyway this is the balderdash that Shaunti references…….
By The72John
June 5, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
It’s not ok to sleep with muliple women at the same time. It’s not ok to hire a women to dance naked at a college party
Why? If the woman is happy to dance naked at a college party, or if all partners involved in the menage-a-whatever are consenting, then why is it your business?
You are every bit as puritanical and limiting as Shaunti in your own way, you know that? If you want true equality then you should realize that this means having complete ownership of your own sexuality.
Guess what, Whiley…there are women out there who LIKE stripping. There are women out there who LIKE having sex with multiple partners, sometimes at the same time.
It’s not your place to dictate their behavior, any more than it is Shaunti’s.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
It’s not ok to sleep with muliple women at the same time. It’s not ok to hire a women to dance naked at a college party, it does not make you a man. It makes you look like a fool.
Ummmm….I would have to disagree with these two. Also, personally, I don’t mind seeing a woman dancing naked anywhere lol. And you are right, it didn’t make me a man. LOL.
Seriously, though, what is the problem with hiring a willing woman to dance. And what is the problem with having multiple sex partners. Though it’s not a lifestyle I’m necessarily interested in, I think it’s a bit contradicting to specify that men shouldn’t have multiple sex partners, but a woman doing it is ok??? I know you didn’t say that, but I don’t see why a distinction has to be made between men and women in that scenario.
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
And here we start veering into the area of consensual, adult behavior. For example: Is prostitution a crime? If so, who commits it—the (example: female) prostitute, or the (example: male) customer?
No, a woman is not responsible for my thoughts, any more than she’s responsible for my actions… but there’s an important distinction there. My THOUGHTS are not a crime. If I go through life objectifying women, I may be an arrogant insensitive lout—but I haven’t done anything wrong. It’s actions that count, not thoughts.
Jennifer makes a good point there. You may not agree with someone who thinks or believes in a sexist way, but he/she hasn’t actually DONE anything objectionable. Veer too far in the thought-crime direction and we become what far-right nuts caricature us as: Politically Correct Police.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
Renee - not to split hairs here, but I suppose it’d be the same situation that a lot of us went through before the “No Call” list for telemarketers. Eight or ten calls every night right at dinnertime….I certainly felt annoyed and harrassed, even though it wasn’t the same marketing company calling over and over.
My question to Brian Curtis was regarding the “playing the victim” comment. Whether the woman in my scenario was a “victim” in the legal sense, I couldn’t say. Certainly the telemarketing companies weren’t doing anything illegal but still….does that mean those of us who didn’t welcome their calls were “playing the victim”? Semantics, I know. But the question seems valid considering that the phrase was used in a context that seemed to imply that women who haven’t been legally harrassed (or even assaulted) are just pretending that the situation bothered them.
I’m not saying that false accusations never happen, because I know they do. Which is why I asked Brian to clarify what he meant by “playing the victim”.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
And since Jesus was supposedly known to hang around with whores, ie Mary Magdalene, on a regular basis I think he’d rather overlook the way any woman was dressed.
By Archie
June 5, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
“Don’t get me wrong, objectification of a person is fine in a very individual and personal sense. In other words, a wife would like for her husband to view her as a sexual object as well as mother to his children and co-bread-winner and life-partner. And vice versa.”
Thanks,Jennifer. ‘Nuff said.
As for Mara,I don’t know why a question was posed to me since I have already said “What women wear does not contribute to sexual assault, period.”
“To answer your question, Mara, I think it very well could be. A woman could feel harassed when NO harassment has taken place, thus playing the “victim” role, when they are not actually a victim of anything, but their own interpretations of a situation.”
Renee the aforementioned paragraph was exactly what was on mind when I posted earlier.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
Mara,
Not to speak for Brian, but it seems to me that the reaction of the hypothetical woman is a very human one, but not necessarily a fair one. Is it the fault of the 10th guy that compliments her or asks her out that 9 other people have already done so? No. So, while her reaction may be perfectly normal, I suspect that it would be one that would embarrasss her in hindsight, once the initial irritation had passed.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
It is not OK to approach a female & comment on her body parts.
Why not? Isn’t this what we’re talking about? If a girl is falling out of a t-shirt that’s three sizes too small and reads, “You don’t need brains when you’ve got these,” she should not feel victimized in the least when a guy comes up and mentions how filled-out her shirt looks. It’s a far cry from rape to comment on it. Or on them, as the case may be.
It doesn’t justify (?) rape, as if anything could. But I don’t for one second buy into the idea that women (and many girls) buy a top that shows sideboob thinking that it’s “cute”. They buy it because guys notice it. That’s the point. Does a girl who wears a t-shirt with the Playboy bunny emblazoned across the chest have any reason for picking out that shirt other than the fact that the logo both draws attention to her chest and is a universally famous logo for the premier nudie mag? No.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
Brian,
I am not getting into the thought police thing. However, women cannot be held accountable for whatever thoughts men have. Those thoughts might very well be objectionable and hateful. However, to act upon those thoughts is where punity comes in. Not only that, but to escape blame for those actions by blaming the person who “made” you think and therefore act is where I start spitting nails.
I can walk down the street in my birthday suit with a sign that says “Honk if you think I’m sexy!” and the only thing you can reasonably do as an observer is LOOK, THINK, and HONK. The first two because those are your human rights and the third because I gave you permission to address me.
By blablabla
June 5, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
what a silly topic. i think brian did a better job of communicating shaunti’s point in his 8:04 than shaunti did in her entire column.
did anybody watch falcon beach last nite? sort of the canadian version of the OC, which is fine with mrs. bla. an interesting show to have on ABC Family. has anybody else been noticing some of the more racy shows that are on a “family” channel?
is there anything funnier than ron mexico in full golfer’s garb for the jim mora celebrity golf classic? i love unintentional comedy.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
My point was that bad behavior has always been encouraged in boys.
And no I don’t think much of men who hire women to dance naked.
No I don’t think many women actually like stripping. I suppose the money is worth all the mental BS that goes along with that type of job.
Once again, this isn’t about women, it’s about the behavior of men.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
No, Billy, that is YOUR interpretation of why women (general not singular) would wear clothes that YOU think are provacative. Just like that Zulu man who THOUGHT he was supposed to rape that girl because she was showing thigh. His interpretation of provacative.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
Who & where are all these women with their body parts sticking out? Most women don’t dress like that. One doesn’t have to be a size 2 with tiny clothing to get verbally harrassed by strangers.
By Archie
June 5, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
I agree with part of Whiley’s 1:37 post but the last part I strongly disagree with. Heck some women like stripping and having sex. One minute you(Whiley) say it isn’t shameful for women to be sexually active then the next minute you blame men for having multiple sex partners. Well in the case of a heterosexual man his sex partners will be women and most of them will know he has other sex partners. Heck you have women that have multiple sex partners. From a christian point of view it’s wrong for either gender to have multiple sex partners but if you’re atheist or agnostic then whatever you want to do is fine. You can’t engage in sexual behavior willingly then somehow blame the other person for your role in that behavior. This was the reason I asked how the women felt about Marion Brooks and B Campbell but sticking with the topic women can dress the way they want to.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this
Once again, this isn’t about women, it’s about the behavior of men
Actually, it’s about both, and about your personal obsession with victimizing women and demonizing men.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Jenn — “You’re at the top of my ‘to do’ list.” “I may not be perfect but parts of me are awesome.” How are tees with these logos not provocative in intent? I’m not reading anything into these, and the fact is that they’re getting worse and being marketed to younger kids.
Comparing my calling out certain clothing choices as being intentionally overtly provocative is nothing like raping someone for showing thigh. As I’ve said, nothing justifies rape. There’s no excuse. But I’m not about to be somehow shamed into saying that girls who wear low-cut tops with a push-up bra and sprinkle a little glitter into their cleavage aren’t trying to get noticed. They are.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
No, Billy, that is YOUR interpretation of why women (general not singular) would wear clothes that YOU think are provacative. Just like that Zulu man who THOUGHT he was supposed to rape that girl because she was showing thigh. His interpretation of provacative
I think Billy is right-on. I think you’re kidding yourself if you think a woman or man who dresses in an overly-provocative manner with sexual slogans on their clothes doesn’t want people to look at them in a sexual manner. Why else wear a t-shirt that says “Look at my boobs” or a t-shirt with a line drawn down to the bulge in your jeans?
We’re sexual beings. It’s OK to be sexual and it’s OK to look. It’s just not OK to touch. It’s not a matter of being right or wrong when you dress - you can dress however you want and you SHOULD have a reasonable expectation that you will be safe while doing it, but let’s be honest about our motivations.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this
My point was that bad behavior has always been encouraged in boys.
That’s really presumptious, don’t you think?
And no I don’t think much of men who hire women to dance naked.
This is your right, and your opinion.
Once again, this isn’t about women, it’s about the behavior of men.
You made this “about the behavior of men”.
No I don’t think many women actually like stripping. I suppose the money is worth all the mental BS that goes along with that type of job.
If you believe this statement, you are in a fantasy world.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this
I gave you permission to address me
Lol - you must be a Yankee. Here in the South it’s OK to speak to people you don’t know.
By Jack
June 5, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
“Women were burned at the stake all over Europe for making men think about sex! “
I’m surprised there are any left!
Yes Mara I remember it. I’m getting hungry how bout some of that “special stew” ? LOL
By lozen
June 5, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
Been2VirtuousReality, why am I not surprised she’s pulling from some religious trash site? So they are teaching young girls that “they are” responsible for the thoughts of males!
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
BTW — Prostitutes wear revealing “clothes” to garner attention. They know that wearing shorts or a skirt with a butt cheek hanging out will draw (certain) men’s interests. I can’t help but believe that women who wear similar clothes know that they, too, will attract similar attention.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Who & where are all these women with their body parts sticking out? Most women don’t dress like that.
Any where you go within the city of Atlanta, or the outskirts, or out of state….pretty much anwhere you can find women dressed in that manner. I don’t know the statistics on the amount of women who do dress with body parts sticking out, but it’s pretty significant.
For instance, if I’m going out for a night on the town, I would not wear the clothing I wear to work. I would be a little more sexier and my clothing would be a little more revealing. This does not mean I wear revealing clothes all the time, but I will from time to time. (what my partner hasn’t thrown out lol).
By GOB
June 5, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
Who & where are all these women with their body parts sticking out? Most women don’t dress like that.
Uh, have you been out in public lately??
By Mara
June 5, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
Archie - the reason I addressed you, in spite of your denial regarding clothing and rape, was this phrase As men we will try to “get over” on women using words and charm but most of us will not ever rape, but some women want attention and will be very slick about their approach”
Your “but some women want attention…etc” My point was “so what if they want attention, that doesn’t mean they want sex” But even more troubling than whether attention=sex paradigm, was the implication that some women would “play the victim” by enticing a man into sex and then saying that he raped her. As I said to Renee, I don’t pretend it never happens, however it seems that some people accept it as fairly common and thus may be more willing to dismiss allegations of assault when made by those who’s “slick approach” is evinced in their dress.
Since, as I’ve said before, I’m not really up on my slang, I just assumed that “men trying to get over on women” meant that one was trying to talk her into having sex. In that context, the next “but…” phrase seemed to imply that some women want the man to “get up on” them” and so used some kind of trick, (being “slick” in their approach, as it were) to pull the poor slob into their web of deceit so they could holler “Coercion” or “RAPE!”. Could be wrong in my understanding. It’s happened before, but that’s why I addressed this, and you, Archie.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
I can walk down the street in my birthday suit with a sign that says “Honk if you think I’m sexy!” and the only thing you can reasonably do as an observer is LOOK, THINK, and HONK.
I can also yell out, “Nice jugs!” and try to get you to go out with me. What I cannot do is touch you in a sexual way without your permission. And since you’d be naked, it’d be hard to touch you in any way that removed all possibiliy of being construed as sexual.
Now, were you to amend your sign to add, “Any other gestures or words directed toward me will be considered assault,” then you might be able to press charges on me for commenting on your perky teats. I think the jury might side with me, however, since you were obviously looking for the gratification that comes with someone finding you attractive. They wouldn’t consider me to be at fault in a ny way just because I chose to show my appreciation vocally instead of with the car horn.
By Archie
June 5, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
“Who & where are all these women with their body parts sticking out? Most women don’t dress like that.”
Please Whiley, you are trying to be controversial or you’re incredibly sheltered. I go to a particular pool hall here in Columbia and the women there wear look cut tops and short,tight dresses. Women have tatoos on their breasts now and they wear their tops low enough for anybody to see the tatoo. It would be incredibly naive to think no one is going to comment on that. Women also wear tatoos on the middle of their backs just about their hips,well guess what it draws attention to their butts. If a guy says “nice tatoo”,etc no one should have a problem with it. Some women are taking full advantage of equal rights just not the way that some feminologists want them to. I have to backup Billy at least a little bit.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Who & where are all these women with their body parts sticking out? Most women don’t dress like that
LOL - Welcome to Whiley-World, where having strange men wave their p3enises at you in a crowd of people is an every day occurence, but where women don’t wear skimpy clothing when they hit the clubs at night.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
For instance, if I’m going out for a night on the town, I would not wear the clothing I wear to work. I would be a little more sexier and my clothing would be a little more revealing. This does not mean I wear revealing clothes all the time, but I will from time to time. (what my partner hasn’t thrown out lol).
And it does not mean that men are justified in raping you. But you choose those outfits knowing that they are a bit more risque than your usual dress, and knowing that you are not offended when a guy comments you on your derriere…
By Chilao
June 5, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
interesting points from a few.
Why is it okay, culturally, to say “Nice dress” or “Nice hairdo” to a woman, and “Nice shirt” or “Nice loafers” to a man, but not okay to say “Nice behind” to either?
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
“LOL - Welcome to Whiley-World, where having strange men wave their p3enises at you in a crowd of people is an every day occurence, but where women don’t wear skimpy clothing when they hit the clubs at night.”
lol ! I haven’t been to a night club in eons. But if I was young & had a flat stomach, you bet your AZZ I’d be out celebrating my young body, dance till the bars close & have a great time. In THAT scenario it would be funny if somebody commented on my rear. As long as they kept their hands off.
By Jack
June 5, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
There is definitely a double standard. Boys are encouraged to “get as much” as they can, girls are taught (or were) to say no. Yes I will look at those exposed body parts and try not to drool on myself but touching is out.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
key words: “pool hall here in Columbia”
lol
By Mara
June 5, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
OK. To recap the comments (paraphrased for my convenience)-
Nothing justifies rape…BUT…
women wear revealing clothing to attract attention from men
men think women in revealing clothing are “advertising” their charms.
women who wear skimpy clothing shouldn’t complain when men make comments about their body parts.
Any points I missed?
Jack - mmmmmmm! Stew. But has lunch been over long enough for us to discuss the…er…cooking process!? Don’t want to make anyone queasy ROTFLMAO!
By Renee
June 5, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
LOL - Welcome to Whiley-World, where having strange men wave their p3enises at you in a crowd of people is an every day occurence, but where women don’t wear skimpy clothing when they hit the clubs at night.
Toooooo funny, John, and sadly true.
Billy - to your 2:34, I don’t generally get offended at comments; however, when I do, I know how to tell the man/woman, to not speak to me in that manner. I have days when I am professionally dressed that I run across a crude person. People have the right to say what they like to me. It’s up to me how (or if) I react to it.
Archie - sometimes I think she is just trying to be controversial, because I find it hard to believe that anyone would be that nieve.
By Chilao
June 5, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
Just an idle curiousity.. LOL
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
LOL - Welcome to Whiley-World, where having strange men wave their p3enises at you in a crowd of people is an every day occurence, but where women don’t wear skimpy clothing when they hit the clubs at night.
hehehehehe
By lozen
June 5, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
Archie, Archie, “Some women are taking full advantage of equal rights just not the way that some feminologists want them to.” What in the world does this mean? Do you mean feminists? Equal rights has nothing to do with the way some females dress. Equal rights refers to equal rights under the law. The way one dresses is a personal choice - well, it’s a personal choice influenced by advertising, MTV, tv, the clothing industry, what her friends are wearing, etc. And not a lot of young females have the self-esteem to brook the crowd. It’s hard to find clothing right now that isn’t too revealing and too tight and yet not dowdy.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
“No I don’t think many women actually like stripping. I suppose the money is worth all the mental BS that goes along with that type of job.
If you believe this statement, you are in a fantasy world.”
lol ! Are you seriously trying to tell me strippers are content with taking their clothes off for drooling drunk men? They are happy with begging for a $1? They are proud of this? Those strippers even participate in “take your daughters to work?”
LOL !
By Netbanker
June 5, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the correction Lozen. Geez…I wasn’t even in the right State!
Jennifer, that’s an excellent observation regarding being held responsible for the thoughts of the man. As guardians of virtue that is the old fashioned view of woman. Boys will be boys, but girls are supposed to be like the Virgin Mary.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
*key words: “pool hall here in Columbia”
lol*
HA!
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
HOLD ON IT’S NOT THIER FAULT ! It’s that teenager wearing that tube top that forces them to make rude disgusting comments to complete strangers !
By lozen
June 5, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
It doesn’t have to be a pool hall. Visit any college campus (and possibly high school). I just haven’t been to any high schools lately. On college campuses these days you get to see plenty of pushed up boobs in low cut tops and shorts with the “cheeks” hanging out. And there are also many, many young women who don’t dress that way. I still don’t think the ones who let it all hang out are asking to be raped - the styles follow the pop diva on the stage. I think they do want to be part of the in-crowd (Brittany, etc) and attract their future boyfriend/husband and they aren’t old enough to have developed good judgment.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
Billy - to your 2:34, I don’t generally get offended at comments; however, when I do, I know how to tell the man/woman, to not speak to me in that manner. I have days when I am professionally dressed that I run across a crude person. People have the right to say what they like to me. It’s up to me how (or if) I react to it.
Thank you, Renee. My point exactly. While I, as a man, and an only moderately attractive one at that, do not have much experience with unwanted advances, I would never equate a comment from someone with sexual assault, which seems to be the case sometimes. Provided it’s left as a comment and not a physical advance of any sort, there’s no real victimization going on. And if the guy won’t relent, well there’s usually another out for you before it gets to that point.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this
It’s hard to find clothing right now that isn’t too revealing and too tight and yet not dowdy.
I’ll agree with this point.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
lol ! Are you seriously trying to tell me strippers are content with taking their clothes off for drooling drunk men? They are happy with begging for a $1? They are proud of this? Those strippers even participate in “take your daughters to work?”
ummmm…yeah… First of all, all the patrons in a strip club are not “drooling, drunk, men”. Generally, the woman doesn’t have to beg for a dollar, they are willingly given, even thrown at the woman. Yes, many are proud of their job. Oh, and no, they don’t “take their daughters to work” because unless they are over 18, that would be illegal.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
HOLD ON IT’S NOT THIER FAULT ! It’s that teenager wearing that tube top that forces them to make rude disgusting comments to complete strangers
Welcome to Whiley-world, where having someone make a sexual comment to you is grounds to shoot them with mace.
I had no idea that women were so fragile.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
HOLD ON IT’S NOT THIER FAULT ! It’s that teenager wearing that tube top that forces them to make rude disgusting comments to complete strangers !
Again, not rape. And to equate it with rape is to do a disservice to the issue. When you start likening a rude comment to an actual sexual assault, you are lessening the impact of actual assaults. No one is going to take rape seriously if any come-on a guy makes is considered assault.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
*By Mara
June 5, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
OK. To recap the comments (paraphrased for my convenience)-
Nothing justifies rape…BUT…
women wear revealing clothing to attract attention from men
men think women in revealing clothing are “advertising” their charms.
women who wear skimpy clothing shouldn’t complain when men make comments about their body parts.
Any points I missed?*This kind of thinking has a logical conclusion. So you can think this way but not touch! Your son or other young men you influence, learn to think this way from you (and/or other men) and perhaps lack the self control not to touch when he’s in high school and college.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this
No, John, I am not a Yankee. I was born and raised in New Orleans.
Billy, you’re nit picking and ignoring my point. You can think what you want to but you’re not allowed to approach anyone how you want to.
And so, whores dress one way to catch attention to sell their wares. And women who dress like whores….what? And I object to your stereotype of hows whores dress. From what I’ve seen they’re mostly broken down crack junkies with no teeth willing to give a quick $5 blow job.
By whiley
June 5, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
“I had no idea that women were so fragile.”
We’re not. We’ve just had it with unwelcome advances & vile comments from stangers. Add to that it’s our fault for showing an ankle.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Billy, I actually agree with a lot of your points.
Whenever, I wear anything sexy, or revealing (which isn’t often), I don’t do it for attention from strangers (maybe subliminally lol). I wear it, because I like it, and I like the way I look in it. But by the same token, I’m not surprised when unsolicited attention is given. You can’t wear some articles of clothing and not expect a stare at the very least.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
so why do men feel they have to comment on a womans body if she doesn’t completely cover it? At what point of “falling out of her shirt” does it become socially acceptable to comment on her anatomy? An inch of cleavage? Two inches?
It sort of surprises me that the comments I’ve heard here seem to imply that men vary their treatment of women depending on how the woman is dressed. Why is a conservatively dressed woman more deserving of respect than a woman dressed in a short skirt and halter-top? What if it’s the same woman at different times of the day?
By Jack
June 5, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
“From what I’ve seen they’re mostly broken down crack junkies with no teeth willing to give a quick $5 blow job.”
They are like cars. You have $5.00 used GEOs and $350.00 Cadilacs and $1000.00 Jaguars.
By Archie
June 5, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Lozen,there was a time when women could not dress the way they wanted to. Yes, I do mean that some women don’t react the way feminists want them to. Thank you Lozen for expanding my point as I simply used the pool hall as an example. Mara you over complicate things because we all know men aren’t perfect in the way that we approach women. Some women do want sex they just want the guy to be the one to bring it up. I was around a young lady on her birthday and she said she wanted “get some” from somebody’s son. She looked at me when she said that but since I am married she moved on. Mara you assumed way too much from my comments and I don’t even understand how you made those leaps. If you read the posts of Renee they give a very good indication of what I am talking about.
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
See, this is why the issue is a complicated one.
What constitutes “unwanted comments?” How can you tell whether a woman—however she’s dressed—would perceive sexual attention as either welcome or unwelcome? You can’t. But you also don’t have to be a rude jerk about it—and the line between sexual attention is a great distance from sexual assault, which is always wrong.
That’s part of what I meant by “playing the victim,” Mara. A woman who shrugs off advances by a man who doesn’t interest her hasn’t been assaulted, and doesn’t need to cry “rape!” to make her point. She’s an adult, and she responds to offers (and even crude come-ons) in an adult way.
However, some women toward Whiley’s side of the issue treat all advances as sexual assault that can only be remedied by getting men to stop thinking “that way.” And in my view, that’s contributing to the woman-as-victim model.
If a teenage boy likes picturing Britney Spears naked, he’s being shallow. But he’s not committing a crime, and he doesn’t necessarily need re-education to purge those thoughts from his brain. He DOES, at all times, need to be able to control his behavior. To me, that’s an important distinction.
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this
“You can’t wear some articles of clothing and not expect a stare at the very least.”
Renee nailed it. And equating stares with sexual assault, as some do, is what makes this simple issue (thoughts vs. actions) so needlessly complicated.
The former is trivial and easily dealt with by adult women who haven’t bought into the victim mentality; the latter is always wrong, and should not be tolerated.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
Billy, you’re nit picking and ignoring my point. You can think what you want to but you’re not allowed to approach anyone how you want to
Actually, you’re being overly-sensitive. You don’t have to give people permission to speak with you or address you. If you walk down the street, naked or otherwise, you aren’t protected from being addressed.
We’re not. We’ve just had it with unwelcome advances & vile comments from stangers. Add to that it’s our fault for showing an ankle
No one said it’s your fault for showing an ankle, in fact no one has agreed that assault or rape is acceptable under any conditions. Of course, in Whiley-World, every woman is assaulted every time a man looks at her, and sexual advances happen 30 times and hour.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
From what I’ve seen they’re mostly broken down crack junkies with no teeth willing to give a quick $5 blow job.
And yet they understand that breasts overflowing and butt cheeks hanging out is going to equal attention from men. Amazing, given how cracked-out they are, that they understand that men like to see naked women…
And I can approach you however the hell I please. I can’t assault you, but I can make lewd comments all day. If you don’t want guys asking if you’d like fries with that shake, don’t wear clothes that accentuate the shake. If you do wear the, don’t get upset when it draws that attention. Those guys aren’t raping you. They just think you’re hot.
By GOB
June 5, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
Whiley - So, what would be an appropriate and acceptable way for a man you dont know to approach you and try to get to know you, and possibly ask you out? I am just curious as to what you view as ok, since you have made it clear what you think is not ok.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
OK, so what most of you are saying is, if you show some skin (or not) expect to get unwanted verbal comments from strangers.
With that thinking, tomorrow all the skinny people yell out to fat people “yo fat AZZ, don’t crack the sidewalk !” or “black man approaching! Black man approaching !” or what about old people? We should all yell out at them, after all they are asking for someone to comment since they walk so slow.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
That was one of my earlier points, Mara. That I have crude points made to me, even when I am in professional, conservative attire.
But it’s a fact of life, that the more clothes you shed, the more looks and comments you get. And, looks and comments are just that…..looks and comments. The original question was if “womens attire contributes to sexual assualt. I have to say no it doesn’t. But it does contribute to looks and comments.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
so why do men feel they have to comment on a womans body if she doesn’t completely cover it? At what point of “falling out of her shirt” does it become socially acceptable to comment on her anatomy? An inch of cleavage? Two inches?
It sort of surprises me that the comments I’ve heard here seem to imply that men vary their treatment of women depending on how the woman is dressed. Why is a conservatively dressed woman more deserving of respect than a woman dressed in a short skirt and halter-top? What if it’s the same woman at different times of the day?
Aren’t we kidding ourselves here by pretending that it’s only men who make these comments? Women are constantly talking about other women. CON. STANT. LY And I’m not talking about the old guard of Shauntis in thw orld. I’m talking about twenty-somethings who see the way kids ten years younger than them are dressing and think they look like whores. The women think that, not just the men.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this
BC, you’re right — a 13 year-old picturing Britney Spears naked isn’t being a criminal. He’s being thirteen, no? hehehe
By The72John
June 5, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
It sort of surprises me that the comments I’ve heard here seem to imply that men vary their treatment of women depending on how the woman is dressed. Why is a conservatively dressed woman more deserving of respect than a woman dressed in a short skirt and halter-top? What if it’s the same woman at different times of the day
Why do sound as if you want both sexual freedom and the kind of treatment that women received 100 years ago?
Don’t kid yourself, Mara - it’s not “Men” commenting on “women” because they’re scantily dressed. In any environment I’ve ever been in where members of either gender were dressed scantily, the comments came from BOTH sides of the room. I think this is what Brian means about playing the victim.
Just to comment on your question - if a person (see, no gender) wears a business outfit to work, and then goes out to the club wearing a see-through shirt open to the navel and hot pants, then don’t you THINK they WANT to be addressed differently?
Clothes are part of our “display”, just like feathers and such are with animals. It’s silly to remove the sexual component from this discussion. Why is everything else about sex, and wearing revealing clothing isn’t? The thing is, it’s OK to be sexual. We’re all dancing around this like it’s WRONG for men or women to dress provocatively, and defending people who do by saying they aren’t trying to be sexual, they just want to be comfortable?
BS! Men and women who wear tight pants and shirts that barely cover their torsos are showing off their bodies, which is inherently sexual, and that’s OK! There’s nothing wrong with being sexual and provocative. The problem isn’t the sexuality, it’s with knowing where display ends and obtrusiveness begins.
By Renee
June 5, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
OK, so what most of you are saying is, if you show some skin (or not) expect to get unwanted verbal comments from strangers.
Exactly!! Welcome to life.
With that thinking, tomorrow all the skinny people yell out to fat people “yo fat AZZ, don’t crack the sidewalk !” or “black man approaching! Black man approaching !” or what about old people? We should all yell out at them, after all they are asking for someone to comment since they walk so slow.
Again, someone can say whatever they like. Someone can run up to me and call me a d**, they can call me a n__, they have the right to say what they want. I then can react based upon what they have said, or get this…..not react.
The difference in people is this.
Some people will think it, but have enough manners/class not to say it.
Some people will say it, no matter the time of day or the circumstances, usually they have no manners or class
Some people don’t even think it.
Please feel free to insert men or women in the place of people.
By Brian Curtis
June 5, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
Whiley, despite your best efforts, you’re never going to get simple rudeness declared a crime. Nor will you convince anyone that rude remarks are the same as rape. It just isn’t gonna fly.
Rude remarks—such as the classic hooting from construction workers when a pretty girl walks by—are just that: rude. And nothing more. They’re not sexual assault; they’re not an act of oppression; they don’t create a lifetime of fear (not in sane adults, anyway); and they’re not the same as rape. They’re just RUDE. That’s all.
Rudeness is inappropriate and regrettable, and we shouldn’t encourage it. But arguing that rudeness is the root cause of the problems women face in our society, and that women will remain helpless and oppressed until rudeness is eliminated, is just not convincing.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
Rude, disgusting comments to complete strangers is on the continuum, Billy. Compliments never upset me. “Lookin’ good!” never made me angry. But there were times when I felt raped by some comments. When it happens to you over and over while you’re just trying to live and get from home to school to work, and people keep messing with you and acting stupid toward you, it does get to feel like an invasion of your private space. And a woman never knows when it will switch from rude comments to action; that’s one of the frighening things about it. I don’t know if a man can understand how these actions effect women because it doesn’t happen to you!
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
GOB, I would think you would know the difference between “mmm woman I’d like some of that sweetness you got”, and a polite “Hello”.
By Mara
June 5, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Archie, I don’t think I’m over-complicating anything. I agree with you that women also have a sex-drive and sometimes want to “get some” but I have to question whether or not that would lead them to employ a “slick approach” that will enable them to “play the victim”, i.e. make a false claim of rape.
Brian, an easy answer to how you tell if a woman would perceive sexual attention as welcome or unwelcome…get to know her before trying to get sex from her. That way you’d know whether she was open to invitation. :^)
Anyway, y’all. That’s me for today. Hugs, darlin’s!
By Billy
June 5, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
OK, so what most of you are saying is, if you show some skin (or not) expect to get unwanted verbal comments from strangers.
Exactly.
With that thinking, tomorrow all the skinny people yell out to fat people “yo fat AZZ, don’t crack the sidewalk !” or “black man approaching! Black man approaching !” or what about old people? We should all yell out at them, after all they are asking for someone to comment since they walk so slow.
No. By the way, none of those actions, however insensitive, are illegal, and certainly not on par with rape.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this
By The72John
June 5, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this
GOB, I would think you would know the difference between “mmm woman I’d like some of that sweetness you got”, and a polite “Hello”
Much like we would assume you know the difference between real sexual assault and a crude comment.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
Brian, if Black men & women were constantly & OPENLY made to feel uncomfortable & unsafe by verbal assaults made by complete strangers, heads would roll.
WHY is it OK to do it to females?
I’m not saying it should be made illegal, I wish we raised boys to not even consider such bad behavior.
By Justin
June 5, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
Mara, I guess my thoughts were misinterpreted. I raise my daughters to pursue their career dreams. However, as they get older, I will need to tell them the reality of how society views men and women differently. If a woman hangs out all night, it is perceived differently than if a man does… along with other things. It is not fair, but it is reality and a reflection of our society.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I have never felt raped by anyone’s comments, no. However, I would imagine that anyone who had actually suffered the physical and emotional trauma of the violation of rape wouldn’t have ever felt raped by someone’s comments, either. That is exactly what I mean by doing a disservice to victims of sexual assault. When equating someone’s crude comments to rape, you are lessening rape in everyone’s eyes. If a guy’s not actually saying, “Hey, I’m going to rape you,” then it’s rude, not criminal.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
I think we’ve gotten off point. Thing is, there is an enormous disconnect between the way women view themselves and the way that men view us. They read messages into our style of appearance that we don’t intend. That is a societal influence that must be changed.
It’s OKAY to look. And you can absolutely say what you want. You guys have been telling us that we should expect nice and rude compliments if we dress to impress. OK, accepted. But you better damn well be prepared to get ANY kind of response back, from a polite thank you to a F*** Off, A*****! without feeling like it came out of left field.
Because, you never know when your impression is the WRONG one. Just be prepared.
And perhaps men just need to be taught that women are not their playthings and we do not think of ourselves as your playthings and we do not dress ourselves to be your playthings.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
I’m not saying it should be made illegal, I wish we raised boys to not even consider such bad behavior.
Oh geeze…
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this
GOB, I would think you would know the difference between “mmm woman I’d like some of that sweetness you got”, and a polite “Hello”
Much like we would assume you know the difference between real sexual assault and a crude comment.WHEN did I ever say verbal assaults from strangers was rape? never ! duh !
What lozen said was accurate tho. Verbal harrassment sometimes make you feel like you’ve been violated.
“But there were times when I felt raped by some comments. When it happens to you over and over while you’re just trying to live and get from home to school to work, and people keep messing with you and acting stupid toward you, it does get to feel like an invasion of your private space. And a woman never knows when it will switch from rude comments to action; that’s one of the frighening things about it. I don’t know if a man can understand how these actions effect women because it doesn’t happen to you! “
Justin, the best things you can do for your daughters is to tell them to live their lives, never give in to double standards.
I CAN’T BELIEVE SOME OF YOU ARE DEFENDING SEXUAL VERBAL HARRASSMENT OF FEMALES ! Would you defend a man yelling out NIG!@#!@ at every opportunity????
By Archie
June 5, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
Mara you do over-complicate things for example:employ a “slick approach” that will enable them to “play the victim”, i.e. make a false claim of rape.”
I never said anything about a false claim of rape. In fact in the post you referred to there was never any comment on my part about rape.
Mara you said “Could be wrong in my understanding.”
As men we will try to “get over” on women using words and charm but most of us will not ever rape, but some women want attention and will be very slick about their approach. There is nothing in that statement that justifies rape. Mara you are wrong in your understanding.
As many of the guys and Renee have said a person can be insensitive but being that way is not illegal and it does not equate to rape. Also I thought Brian did a good enough job with his 3:55 post to answer your questions.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
And perhaps men just need to be taught that women are not their playthings and we do not think of ourselves as your playthings and we do not dress ourselves to be your playthings.
Who said it was about playthings?
What really cracks me up is the assumption of the women on this board that they are victims and that men are all offenders. I’ve heard as many lewd and racy comments from women as from men when I go out on the weekends.
Geeze, have I finally found one area where it’s easier to be gay? I’ve never seen a gay man freak out because someone called him hotstuff.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
I guess my point is that I am not going to apologize for thinking a certain way about you when I see you in the mall and your pants are so tight that I can, from across the food court, see the piercing in your clitoral hood.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
Now that I am “60ish” I don’t have to worry about crude comments on the street anymore ;-). That is definitely a good thing about getting old. No total stranger with missing teeth and pee on his pants is going to walk up to me and say, “I bet you got a pretty p—-y.” How about, “oh, baby, come sit on my face.” How about sucking noises or licking their lips while staring at your crotch as you walk by? Come on now guys. I want to hear your stories about strange women (who are kinda crazy acting insisting on commenting on your d—cks while you’re just rushing to get to class on time! We may be talking about two different things here.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
“I guess my point is that I am not going to apologize for thinking a certain way about you when I see you in the mall and your pants are so tight that I can, from across the food court, see the piercing in your clitoral hood.”
Just another old man hanging out at the malls searching for piercings on underage girls.
By The72John
June 5, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
WHEN did I ever say verbal assaults from strangers was rape? never ! duh
Umm, pretty much every time you deign to post on the ‘blog, you make wild hysterical claims about how often you are verbally harassed by men. At one point you even suggested that you would be justified in macing a man for making a lewd comment. Remember?
I CAN’T BELIEVE SOME OF YOU ARE DEFENDING SEXUAL VERBAL HARRASSMENT OF FEMALES ! Would you defend a man yelling out NIG!@#!@ at every opportunity????
I think it’s more that we’re telling you to grow up and climb down off the cross. Your martyrdom is tiresome. Guess what. There are rude people out there. All over. And they make comments. About race. About gender. About sexuality. About women’s boobs and men’s asses. Get over it! You’re (presumably) a grown-up, so if you can’t shrug off these comments you’ve got bigger issues than people wolf-whistling at you.
Your problem is that you act as if these behaviors are normal and pervasive. In reality, most people are civil to each other. You, however, live in a delusional world where all men are abusers just a hair’s breadth from their first rape.
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it funny that we are called “playing the victim” because we are sick of verbal harassment?
If someone can explain to me how to stop strangers from making sexual comments to females they don’t know, please let me know.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
However, I would imagine that anyone who had actually suffered the physical and emotional trauma of the violation of rape wouldn’t have ever felt raped by someone’s comments, either. That is exactly what I mean by doing a disservice to victims of sexual assault. I know women who have been raped who go crazy when a man they know approaches them suddenly! Why don’t you ask women who have been raped how they feel and listen to them instead of deciding for them how they “wouldn’t have ever felt”?
By The72John
June 5, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
Just another old man hanging out at the malls searching for piercings on underage girls
You are a real piece of work, Whiley. You know that, right? I guess no one is supposed to look at anyone else.
Get laid, Whiley.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this
Just another old man hanging out at the malls searching for piercings on underage girls.
I’m 27.
…we’re telling you to grow up and climb down off the cross. Your martyrdom is tiresome.
Amen.
Would you defend a man yelling out NIG!@#!@ at every opportunity????
I have nothing against rap music.
By lozen
June 5, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
72John, I can testify my brother! These behaviors are normal and pervasive in reality for attractive young women. Many men are not civil or respectful to women. Oh, if only we could transplant your brain into a beautiful, shapely 20 year old woman and then send you out walking on the streets of Atlanta.
By Jennifer
June 5, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
You can think what you want. It’s your actions and the response to those actions that is not equal.
By Billy
June 5, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
I know women who have been raped who go crazy when a man they know approaches them suddenly!
I imagine I’d be a little on edge when approached by strange men were I at one point violated by one.
Why don’t you ask women who have been raped how they feel and listen to them instead of deciding for them how they “wouldn’t have ever felt”?
Well, I would, but out of all the women I know only about half have ever mentioned that they had been raped at some point. I mean, honestly. How do I know who has been raped and who hasn’t? I’m sure not about to start asking all my female friends…I think the only way to settle this is to take someone who “feels raped” by someone’s comments, rape her, and then ask her if the comments were as bad as she thought…
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
“Would you defend a man yelling out NIG!@#!@ at every opportunity????
I have nothing against rap music.”
lol Billy !
By Whiley
June 5, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this
72 john, your comments are typical male responses.
Lozen, you’re right as we get older it’s not as common & THANK GOODNESS for that lol
It was a daily happening when I was younger. It was so irritating because it was usually by much older, creepy looking, homeless looking, or just plain perverted looking men. What in the world do they get out of making women frightened? Out of insulting someone? It got really old real quick. The funny thing was, the boys we were truly interested in didn’t do that type of thing. They were always hitting on us, but they were gentleman & it was fun flirting.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 07:44 AM | Link to this
I’ve been pondering the premise of whether a womans dress “contributes” to sexual assault. After re-reading the comments from yesterday I must sadly agree that “yes, I’m afraid it could contribute.”
Why do I say this? Because it became obvious in the comments from the men, that while they in no way, shape, or form condoned rape, they did make the point that the way a woman dresses directly influences how they talk to and treat her. Now, the men on this blog would never rape a woman, but it becomes apparant that they see nothing wrong with making rude, suggestive, and sexual commentary to a woman who isn’t fully covered. That you welcome their comments and innuendo. Not on this blog of course, but in the real world there are men who assume that if you’re “advertising” like a ho, you want to be treated like a ho. And away we go into the “if she didn’t want ‘it’ why did she dress like a streetwalker?” defense for rape.
So, while what you wear may not be the prime cause of rape, it does seem to influence whether men view you as “whore” or “madonna”. And it’s a short step (and only a few shots of liquor) from thinking a woman wants admiration and attention to thinking she wants sex. And if she wants it, then it isn’t rape…it’s “consensual”.
By Lyrazel
June 6, 2006 07:55 AM | Link to this
…so Shaunti………….
What would you have a 6 year old wear to a piano lesson? The little girl probably was not wearing revealing clothing or a t-shirt with a slogan that said more than Kermit loves me…but a sexual assault still reportedly happened. Was it a 6-year olds fault for being so promiscuous the male teacher could not stop? I know you were thinking of the ludicrous t-shirts with sayings about boobs and ludicrous slogans about being ripe and ready but I hope you realize the cruel fallacy of your argument Shaunti. Children could be put in burkas but they would still be subjected to sexual assault, indeed child molestation is fastest growing area of sexual assault. Its so disgusting you would blame the 6-year old victim but EVERYTHING you wrote implies the little girl and mother were more responsible for the assault than the perp.
While adults have a debate about adults choosing to walk around in revealing clothes and whether wolf-whistles constitutes assault please remember Shaunti that rape and assault happens to children! Its because there is no one type of victim ONLY THE PERP should be blamed.
Lyrazel
By The72John
June 6, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this
but it becomes apparant that they see nothing wrong with making rude, suggestive, and sexual commentary to a woman who isn’t fully covered
Hmm…Actually I’m more of the opinion that if women want to be truly equal, that they can’t expect to be treated with old-fashioned deference at the same time. That doesn’t mean that I approve of the rude comments and such, but that’s because I don’t approve of that, period.
I also, as I have said, think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t believe there is a sexual component to scanty clothing regardless of one’s gender. If you can’t stand the heat, then don’t wear the clothing.
I’m just being realistic here. Crudeness, from either direction, isn’t going to stop because, let’s face it, there are a lot of ill-bred, trashy, crude people out there who just don’t know any better. So, if you want to dress in skimpy clothing, more power to you. Enjoy! Just have the self-possession to shrug off the idiots who shout out “shake it, baby, shake it!”
And it’s a short step (and only a few shots of liquor) from thinking a woman wants admiration and attention to thinking she wants sex. And if she wants it, then it isn’t rape…it’s “consensual”
This is a bit hyperbolic, don’t you think? I don’t think there are that many men out there who are going to make the step from rude comments and lascivious eye-leering to rape.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 08:37 AM | Link to this
John, very well put.
By Lyrazel
June 6, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this
Its usually NOT the guys making the rude comments who do the rape. Its the guy sitting alone in back just watching the victim be flirted on and her responses. When she leaves he follows… the majority of rapists do not call attention to themselves nor alert the victim.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this
Thank you 72John for your 8:17 am post. Gosh,man you’re a homosexual but you really understand heterosexual men. I hope you’re not offended by my words because you do a great job of expressing yourself.
I will offer this true story. A young lady at a pool hall here in Columbia saw me with 2 dollars in my hand standing at the bar, she told me that I could put one of the dollars in her top. I didn’t do it and I wasn’t offended but after reading some of the comments from some of the ladies here I do wonder what world are they in. As you said John women do make crude,suggestive comments. That particular young lady was using her charm and looks to get a few dollars for a drink, in other words she was trying to get over but I wasn’t offended. I had the self-possession to shrug it off and mind my business.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this
I would also like to point out that I, personally, continue to open doors (for anyone who is encumbered or may have trouble opening them themselves, not just ladies), pull out chairs, offer umbrellas, stand when a woman enters a room and remain standing until she sits, etc.
This is the way I was raised, but if a friend indicates that she can do for herself, then by golly, I’m going to let her do for herself, ‘cause that’s her right. It’s my right to try to be “gentlemanly” and her right to let me know that she can do for herself.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this
I said weeks ago that in order to be equal women have to withstand some criticism at times, not all the time but sometimes. Finally, a man says this along these lines:Hmm…”Actually I’m more of the opinion that if women want to be truly equal, that they can’t expect to be treated with old-fashioned deference at the same time.”
Thanks John.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this
I would also like to point out that I, personally, continue to open doors (for anyone who is encumbered or may have trouble opening them themselves, not just ladies), pull out chairs, offer umbrellas, stand when a woman enters a room and remain standing until she sits, etc.
This is the way I was raised, but if a friend indicates that she can do for herself, then by golly, I’m going to let her do for herself, ‘cause that’s her right. It’s my right to try to be “gentlemanly” and her right to let me know that she can do for herself.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this
Its usually NOT the guys making the rude comments who do the rape. Its the guy sitting alone in back just watching the victim be flirted on and her responses. When she leaves he follows… the majority of rapists do not call attention to themselves nor alert the victim
Rape is an entirely different thing from rude comments. And now you state, unequivocally, that the rapist and the loudmouth aren’t even the same people?
Let me be equally unequivocal on this: No one bears responsibility for rape but the rapist himself. Period. Clothes, makeup, walk, coquettish looks, I don’t care. Nothing is an invitation to physical violation of a person.
We have GOT to seperate “Shake that thing, sexy momma” from actual sexual assault, or this conversation is meaningless.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this
I’m not the type to make rude, suggestive comments to a woman. I will make them behind her back, however.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
It seems there are plenty of people out there that believe it’s perfectly normal to harass women on the streets. And ladies, we all know it has very little to do with style of clothing. It happens no matter what we wear.
I look forward to the day that street harassment is as socially unacceptable as calling out NIG@#!@#, or any other racist comments that clearly make certain people feel threathened/unsafe out in public.
Street harrassment is a form of terrorism & isn’t THAT ILLEGAL?
By The72John
June 6, 2006 09:33 AM | Link to this
I look forward to the day that street harassment is as socially unacceptable as calling out NIG@#!@#, or any other racist comments that clearly make certain people feel threathened/unsafe out in public
Yes, because there is clearly similarity between hate speech and compliments rendered by people lacking the social graces to do so in a refined manner.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
And can’t pass this one up, either…
Street harrassment is a form of terrorism & isn’t THAT ILLEGAL
Umm…no… is NOT a form of terrorism. I realize that it’s en vogue today to label everything we don’t like terrorism, but that doesn’t make it so. If you are afraid to go outside because someone might (and somehow I doubt they would) vocally admire your hindparts, then that’s YOUR problem.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this
It seems there are plenty of people out there that believe it’s perfectly normal to harass women on the streets. And ladies, we all know it has very little to do with style of clothing. It happens no matter what we wear.
I look forward to the day that street harassment is as socially unacceptable as calling out NIG@#!@#, or any other racist comments that clearly make certain people feel threathened/unsafe out in public.
Street harrassment is a form of terrorism & isn’t THAT ILLEGAL?
Are we just talking about street harrassment? Because from some things that have been said it sounds like you might believe unwanted pick-up attempts in a bar constitute harrassment and sexual assault…
I don’t like being harrassed on the street. Granted, it was never sexual, but when I was at Tech I was often approached for money. Yes, it made me uncomfortable. I was, and still am, always wary of panhandlers, because you never know when one is going to turn out to be a mugger, not a beggar. As was mentioned earlier, though, I never walked down the street counting money in the open. I kept it under wraps.
And it’s been said many times that lewd comments are noto rape. As much as it might disgust you, a random guy yelling how he would like to toss your salad is rude, not assault. Unless he tries it or corners you and demands it, it’s just him being disgusting.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this
Street harrassment is a form of terrorism & isn’t THAT ILLEGAL
Street harrassment is a form of terrorism??????? You can’t possibly be serious. Some of your statements, are so way in left field they take away from the validity of your point, whatever it might be.
Rudeness and crudeness is not acceptable by most people, however it is a part of life. YOU CANNOT CONTROL ANYONE ELSES ACTIONS, YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURS. People will yell out racial comments from time to time, as will some make nasty comments to men/women. It happens. Your life continues. There are trashy, nasty people in the world. Sometimes you can bring the nastiness out of someone, other times it will be totally unprovoked. In the whole scheme of things, how important is “street harrassment”. It definitely does not add up to rape, nor should it be compared as such.
Oh, and here’s something you might not know. “Street harassment” is not just a “man” thing. Women do it to men and women do it to other women as well. Women can be just as crude and rude as any man. (Oh, but you probably think they don’t want to be rude).
By Lyrazel
June 6, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this
Rape is an entirely different thing from rude comments. And now you state, unequivocally, that the rapist and the loudmouth aren’t even the same people?
John Usually they are NOT the same. I never insinuated that those who make catcalls are rapists or potential assaulters. Statistics of assault and rape proves contrary to this. I agree that the responsibility of the crime is with the perp not the victim…havent I said that enough?
If I get to a front entry before a man I will hold the door open for him to pass. Now days the men I am with have canes or are in mobile chairs…they like to tell me how they would if they could…Isnt it just common curtsey to be polite?
By Archie
June 6, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this
I truly wish Whiley would leave black people out of her commentary. It bothers me that to make a point she all of sudden uses black folk. You can’t debate 72John or myself with good logic? In today’s world women make crude comments and suggestions and they touch. A lady patted me across the chest while discussing how hard I worked out. I jokingly asked could do the same thing to her but all I got was a chuckle. I shrugged it off. I think the topic is a good one but conversation has veered away from good sense. If we are going to veer off why not let’s discuss what is appropiate dress on casual day,at the pool hall, at the church,at the company picnic,etc? I am at my desk with a tie on but the lady in the next cubicle has on a nice polo-type shirt with khakis. What’s up with that?
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
“Yes, because there is clearly similarity between hate speech and compliments rendered by people lacking the social graces to do so in a refined manner.”
Only a man would say something so ignorant.
Women are not stupid. WE know our chances of sexual assault & murder. We also know somebody we don’t know that makes disgusting remarks directly to us about our genitals is clearly a threat. When it happens at the grocery store parking lot, malls, parks, school, on the way to work, etc does not make me or anybody else an “hysterical” woman. Would you tell black people years ago too bad that’s your own fault for feeling threatened?? What are you complaining about? Those people are just rude, you shouldn’t worry if they follow you yelling NIG@#$@# at you.
“If you are afraid to go outside because someone might (and somehow I doubt they would) vocally admire your hindparts, then that’s YOUR problem.”
lol what an incredibly uncaring sexist world we live in.
One of the worst are the guys that follow you out of a store & start whistling, you ignore them & keep walking, then they start yelling at you “HEY, HELLOOO, EXCUSE ME, HEY !”. Then when you quickly get into your car you hear “SZlut, B!TCH” real loud.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this
John - I read your first sentence and my mind blanked for a minute. “…if women want to be truly equal,…they can’t expect to be treated with old-fashioned deference at the same time” HUH!?
Respect and politeness are “old-fashioned”? And simple decency is “deference”? And both are inimical to gender equality? Never knew being treated as an equal to men was an either/or proposition. Either stick to the kitchen or be prepared to get treated like a whore. Either wear concealing conservative dress or resign yourself to getting insulted and propositioned by any guy who decides you are dressed for sex. Sheesh, John.
Actually, you kind of the illustrate what I was saying about dress being a “contributing factor” to rape. You, John, seem to be a decent, open-minded, modern guy. You seem to look at women as individuals and not objects of…whatever. BUT…you also seem to see as reasonable and expected the harassment of women whose dress is perceived as “sexy”. The acceptance of the idea that if she didn’t want to be harassed, she shouldn’t have worn “sexy” clothes. What was it you said? “If you can’t stand the heat, then don’t wear the clothing”?… in other words, anyone wearing revealing clothes must want to be treated like a sex object? So while I agree that few would make the leap from harassment to rape, it does illustrate the acceptance of the idea that how women dress directly reflects their openness to a sexual advance. I don’t think that’s an outrageous or hyperbolic statement, given the previous comments. And by the bye, I agree that there aren’t a lot of men who’d make the leap from boorishness to criminality…but there are some who will. Then again, there aren’t a LOT of men who rape either. When they do, wouldn’t the comment “Well, her boobs were hanging out and her asscheeks were showing, so I thought….why not?” sound exactly like a lot of the opinions expressed here by men to rationalize boorishness but who are genuinely appalled by the act of rape? So wouldn’t it be reasonable to say that dress could influence the mindset of the rapist?
FYI - My choice to wear tanks, halters, shorts and mini’s is not because they make me feel especially “sexy” but because it’s freakin’ hot outside and I don’t want to sweat like a pig.
By manon fancher
June 6, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
Oh yeah, women bring it on themselves. Yeah. That six months old infant that was raped recently, she was asking for it. I mean look at the high cut of that diaper. Wow. and that ninety year old grannie that was raped by a reenage boy. I guess he was turned on by her walker. Hey people, it is only on T.V. That beautiful blond teenage girls in hot pants are raped. In real life, it could be anyone, any age. People are dying in a real life war people. Get your heads out of the gutter.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
Archie - I feel you.
Mara - If you leave your house in a sequinn studded halter/bikini top, daisy dukes and heels, and someone makes a lewd comment to you, you would be surprised????
If John left his home in a speedo and cowbow boots, would you be surprised if women made comments to him? Or even a more conservative outfit of skin tight jeans and the tight spandex muscle shirt. Or any number of combinations.
Outfits do cause a second look from some, and from the “less classier” a lewd comment.
So yes, if you leave your house in revealing clothing, expect a comment or two (if you look good in what you have on, and sometimes even if you dont). Should you expect to be raped, no.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
One of the worst are the guys that follow you out of a store & start whistling, you ignore them & keep walking, then they start yelling at you “HEY, HELLOOO, EXCUSE ME, HEY !”. Then when you quickly get into your car you hear “SZlut, B!TCH” real loud.
Yeah, that’s totally the same thing as terrorism and rape…
you also seem to see as reasonable and expected the harassment of women whose dress is perceived as “sexy”.
Reasonable? No. Expected? Yes.
there aren’t a LOT of men who rape either. When they do, wouldn’t the comment “Well, her boobs were hanging out and her asscheeks were showing, so I thought….why not?” sound exactly like a lot of the opinions expressed here by men to rationalize boorishness but who are genuinely appalled by the act of rape? So wouldn’t it be reasonable to say that dress could influence the mindset of the rapist?
They might sound the same, but they’re in a whole different league. Plenty of things that are acceptable in society are on the same spectrum as and similar to some relatively taboo things.
By vincent
June 6, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Why should any woman have to be concerned about wearing something “sexy”? No woman should. Just the very idea that the victim perhaps was asking for it makes me want to vomit. Cases of rape have involved people being sexually attacked that have had nothing to do with articles of clothing. Speaking from experience, being raped while in college had nothing at all to do with my clothes. I was visiting a friend, coincidentally in Atlanta, and awoke while being asleep to find a blade at my neck and told by my friend’s roommate not to say a word or I’d be killed.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this
Go away, felcher, if that’s all you’re bringing to the table.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
A gentleman who sees a fine female should just smile and maybe a wink only wanting a smile in return. He should always open a door for a woman (car door also), and pull out her chair in a restaurant. If all men did that we would not be stereo typed as dogs or pigs.
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this
Billy, you are a “Ho” and of course you are defending the crude and the rude. It’s who you are. Your comment yesterday about the girl in tight pants at the mall is just as crude as it can get on a blog. You can be as crude as they come and nobody says a word but let Whiley say something and everybody is telling her how over the top she is! And this one stinks, you pervert: I think the only way to settle this is to take someone who “feels raped” by someone’s comments, rape her, and then ask her if the comments were as bad as she thought. You are really disgusting. I’ve seen your type ogling the young girls in the mall and falling all over yourself. You project your dirty thoughts onto young girls and call them “ho”. You’re the one that’s a “ho” Billy Willy.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
None of us men here rationalize boorishness, we simply say that it exists on both sides. I have to defend 72John because in my examples I discussed boorish behavior by women and I didn’t follow them around thinking I might ‘get some’. It is unreasonable to say that drees could influence the mindset of a rapist. Some here have problems with comprehension. Another time a young lady was bending over make a shot on the pool table,well her top was so low and loose that she had to reach up and put her breast back in.(they were big) Nobody made a comment but as a man I was thinking she had no business getting upset if someone did. To her credit she kept on doing what she was doing and she was pleasant to the men.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
oops - meant cowboy boots and not cowbow. LOL
By GOB
June 6, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
A gentleman who sees a fine female should just smile and maybe a wink only wanting a smile in return.
Some women on this blog might stab a pencil through your eye if you winked at them…
By Renee
June 6, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
LOL Gob!!!
By GOB
June 6, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this
If John left his home in a speedo and cowbow boots, would you be surprised if women made comments to him?
That is what I usually wear to the pool in the summer, and no one seems to mind…
By Billy
June 6, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
My comment about the tight pants at the mall was supposed to be crude; that’s the point I was trying to make. People are going to look if your clothes are practically painted on, and some of them are going to make comments. It’s a fact of life. And instead of equating lewd comments with sexual assault, perhaps the thing to do is not wear clothes you have to pour yourself into.
The rape comment was in response to someone who claimed to have “felt raped” by comments. I said that I would imagine that victims of actual rape could differentiate between lewd comments and sexual assault. She said I shouldn’t assume what women would feel. That specific comment was a tongue-in-cheek response. My point was that I am not going to take someone’s word that they “feel raped” by someone’s remarks unless they have been physically, sexually violated in the past. For the record, I still believe that anyone who says they feel raped by someone’s words would, after actually being raped, decide that the words maybe weren’t as bad a violation as they had thought.
By ann
June 6, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
Many women today dress like walking pornography. While each person is accountable for their own behavior and rape is not justified even if the woman was naked, women should not get a free pass. They dress in provocative ways and then are “surprised” when they provoke certain thoughts and feelings. Grow up, we are all reasponsible, women as well as men. Women should have more respect for themselves and others - dress standards have degraded into MTV 24/7. Too bad for all of us.
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
Keep on lickin’ male azz Renee.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
“A gentleman who sees a fine female should just smile and maybe a wink only wanting a smile in return. He should always open a door for a woman (car door also), and pull out her chair in a restaurant. If all men did that we would not be stereo typed as dogs or pigs.”
Jack the world is not like that anymore. Some women of today consider a gentleman to be a weak man. Heck I have not dated in more than 10 years and I know that much. The reason I like Renee and 72John’s comments so much is because they nail it on this issue, they’re not afraid to be critical of women. Chivalry is not dead it’s just not appreciated. It seems as if the gay people here are more honest about male/female behavior. Renee is really keeping it real but some on here just can’t deal with that and perhaps there’s generation gap thing working here.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
Archie, that’s rich…the dig about “comprehension”. Cuz it seems like everytime I parse one of your comments, you get all bewildered and say you don’t understand or that I complicate things too much LOL!! See what I don’t comprehend (heh, heh, heh…) is why men, and in my experience the majority are men, feel a need to comment at all. So what if that girls boob popped out. That doesn’t make her fair game for crudeness. And why do you present not saying anything as though it was an admirable, but challenging, feat?
And so what if the chick at the mall has a clit ring. Why is it so imperative that you comment on it? Why don’t people just mind their own business?
Renee - regarding the sequined halter, daisy dukes, and heels…I certainly wouldn’t be surprised at the crudeness (but I would feel annoyed that someone thought my appearance was any of their concern). I wouldn’t have time to fight about it though, cuz my honey would probably be laying around the shanty waiting for me to get back with his Camaro and a twelve-pack. LOL!!
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
You twisted little creep! You don’t know how a woman who has been raped feels. You don’t kow how words can make a woman feel like she’s being raped. You don’t know how women walk around scared all the time. You never will. Shut up! Now you want to tell women how they shuold dress, you dirty minded a—h—-! When you raped her to see if she thoght it was as bad as words did she say, is it in yet! I bet she did.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
but GOB, aren’t you having to constantly fend of the verbal assaults and insults leveled at you because of your suggestive poolside dress? Eh!?
By Renee
June 6, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Billy, I understood your point, and thought you conveyed it well.
By GOB
June 6, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
dress standards have degraded into MTV 24/7. Too bad for all of us.
I am pretty sure every generation has said some variation of this about the next generation of teens and 20-somethings.
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
My guess is that this is part of the ‘fallout’ from women’s liberation. We haven’t quite figured out how to deal with these situations or what it should mean.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
Mara, you’re completely off-base in your assumptions. The men here haven’t been arguing that women see “nothing wrong with make rude, suggestive, and sexual commentary” to women. In fact, we’ve been pretty unanimous is condemning such behavior as rude.
The distinction is that we don’t go to Whiley’s extreme, of equating simple rudeness with sexual assault. We all encounter rudeness every day, from teenagers flipping you off to a driver screaming “a-hole!” in traffic. It’s unpleasant, but it’s also not the end of the world. And no, it’s not the doorway to rape any more than a handshake is a doorway to a tackle and headlock.
Yes, people do react to you differently based on how you dress; that’s a given in any situation. If I showed up at a funeral wearing cutoffs and sandals, I’d get stares and comments. If a woman walks down a city street in beachwear, she’ll get the same. What I’m suggesting is that women be aware of what impression they’re making and be prepared to deal with it, instead of insisting that they get a guarantee of no reactions no matter how they choose to dress. Those reactions can be as harmless as looks, as rude as unwanted comments… but they’re going to happen.
—
And no, Whiley, simple rudeness STILL isn’t going to qualify as terrorism any more than it counts as rape. Given your stated hypocrisy on the subject (you welcomed flirting comments from friends, as long as they didn’t “look creepy” or “look homeless” or weren’t “old”), I’m not surprised you only worry about women being judged on their looks… but it really discredits your argument.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
Typos: “The men haven’t been suggesting that THEY see nothing wrong with it… we’ve been pretty much unanimous in condemning IT as rude.”
This is what happens when you come to work late and rush through the day.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
No respectable man would wear a speedo in public. Private yes.
By d2dutton
June 6, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this
I was young and single, visiting a local bar with friends when I first learned that men view women’s clothing differently than the women wearing the clothes.
The other women in our group were dressed slinkily but I ended up getting asked out to dance the most. What was I wearing? A short haircut, jeans, and a long men’s shirt with the tail hanging out. Finally I asked a guy why he hadn’t asked out another girl at the table and he told me that my short haircut meant I was daring and my shirt-tail hanging out meant I was asking to be groped. The slinky ladies were seen as too easy—-I was definitely the one that wanted to have fun!
Here, I thought I looked like I wanted to paint a room and work in the garden but, instead, I looked like I wanted hot sex!
Men do have their own language. However, women get raped regardless of what they wear. I’ve known a woman who was violently raped while wearing a bikini and another woman also violently raped while wearing a flannel night gown. Rape has nothing to with looks and everything to do with the attitude of the rapist and his/her need for power.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
And so what if the chick at the mall has a clit ring. Why is it so imperative that you comment on it? Why don’t people just mind their own business?
I wouldn’t comment on it, but at the same time plenty of guys would.
Listen up, pointingoutcreepymenismyjob. I never claimed to know how a woman who has been raped feels. And of course I don’t know how words can make a woman feel like she’s being raped. I can’t even wrap my brain around the idea that someone’s words are equally as traumatic as being physically and sexually violated. That’s the whole point here. The thing is that a woman who has never been raped has no place saying that words make her feel raped, because she doesn’t know what rape feels like any more than I do.
My posts yesterday boiled down to these points:
1) Rape is never the woman’s fault. It is always the perpetrator’s actions. No other cause exists.
2) Lewd remarks do not equal sexual assault.
3) If you don’t want to receive lewd remarks from the segment of society that is going to give them, do everything not to inspire them. Don’t wear extra-skimpy clothes. If you do, men (and women) are going to stare, and some are going to make comments to you. If someone makes a comment to you, you are not being raped!
That is the gist of my argument — one I have made, might I add, with my usual screen name.
People tell other people how to dress all the time. When I worked at a bank, I had to wear a tie. I couldn’t have visible piercings or tattoos. My facial hair had to stay neatly trimmed. Casual Fridays consisted of khakis and a collared shirt. For the women as well — cutoff jeans with butt cheeks hanging out and a tube top don’t project the image the bank wanted.
We do a ton of stuff every single day to project a certain image. People’s perceptions are not solely their own — to claim that dress has no effect on perceptions is ludicrous. Sure, some might be more likely to read into things than others, but visible areola is going to stand out in guys’ heads. They aren’t being crude, they’re just being male. It’s biology. Should they rape the woman? Of course not. Should they make lewd comments? No. But if a guy sees real, live breasts, he’s going to think about them. Unless they’re nasty, but that’s another conversation.
Lastly, I have never raped anyone. And I don’t plan on it. Thank you.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
Keep on lickin’ male azz Renee.
Lovely,pointingoutcreepymenismyjob (or Whiley).
I’m entitled to, and have my own opinions, whether or not a male or a female shares them.
I don’t know much about clit rings (except that I wouldn’t get one, and can’t look at someone’s apparatus that has one), but I would venture to think that if someone has one, they are doing it for attention. Although I didn’t know you could tell if someone had one, without them having their clothes on.
Mara - I know you referenced earlier how you may wear shorts, miniskirt and/or halter top because it’s hot. There is a big difference between throwing on clothes that are cool, and putting on clothes to be sexy. I think I also made the comment before that I have gotten - what’s the term…ummm “street harrassed” - in professional clothing. So, this would lead me to believe that people can be rude and crude no matter the attire one has on. But, I can expect stares and/or possible rude comments if I’m wearing my get up walking through Piedmont Park.
I had a friend years ago, who would wear the most shocking outfits. She had what people would say “azz for days”, and would wear things to accentuate her azz. For example, we went to walk track. She shows up with the the thong exercise suit over spandex pants. Needless to say, everybody who walked by us, stared, commented etc. She even got out of the car and pumped gas in this get up. The killer part was, she got MAD that SO many people were commenting. We were on Memorial Drive in Stone Mountain, no less, so of course there was not a man without his eyes falling out, jaw dropping, and some chose to comment.
Now for her to leave her home, in this outfit, and not expect ANYONE to say anything is ridiculous to say the least.
In a perfect world, everybody would be a gentlemen or a lady, people would mind their own business and not worry about what another has on. I don’t “harass” women, but I see women (sadly not too often in my new state lol) with so little clothing, I do a double take. Now, I would never run up to her and say “dang baby, I want some of you” but the next man/woman might.
Hairstyles, clothing, just appearance in general brings all kinds of comments, both positive and negative. Humans in general are visual, some communicate it differently than others, however.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this
“my shirt-tail hanging out meant I was asking to be groped”
He was lying like a rug.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
I think we’re closing in on an important expectation here. Whiley and some others (Mara, possibly?) seem to be aiming for a society where a woman can wear “whatever she wants, wherever she wants” and get NO REACTION WHATSOEVER.
That sounds right, doesn’t it? It sounds like anything else would be “blaming the victim.” But let’s think about this for a second.
They’re not saying that a woman’s clothing should be no excuse for sexual assault; we all agree on that, after all. But no, they’re taking it further—saying that the way a person dresses should have ZERO impact on how other people treat them. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Whether it be sandals at a funeral, a tuxedo at the beach, or a rainbow wig and clown nose at a board meeting… what you wear should have NOTHING to do with how people react to you.
This is absurd, of course. Reactions, within the limits of acceptable polite behavior, are always going to occur in any social setting. And sane adults can both expect that, plan for it, and deal with it. Sensible people can even deal with reactions that veer into the domain of rudeness, without collapsing into a fetal position and crying “terrorism.”
In the real world, reactions to appearance (including some regrettable rudeness) will always be with us. Dressing in a manner commonly considered provocative and then getting outraged at the reactions you receive is a perfect example of “playing the victim.”
Take some responsibility for yourselves, women. Consider the surroundings and the situation you’re in, just like you choose what to wear to work every day or to a friend’s party Saturday night. Stand up for your rights, but don’t assume you have the right to zero consequences for any and all actions. No one has that right, male or female. (Well, maybe Bush.)
By Jack
June 6, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
They didn’t ask the others to dance cause they were afraid of rejection. They lied. (I’m sure you looked just as good as your friends underneath the threads)
By Archie
June 6, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
Mara I did not present not saying anything as admirable and challenging, you added that to your comments and once again a problem with comprehension. It was a true story and there’s no need to add on or parse anything. Mara you have a problem with women being criticized and that hurts empowerment in my opinion because none of us can just do anything without being criticized sometimes. I agree with you that we should mind our own business but the men and Renee have stated over and over that they don’t approve of crude remarks but that crude remarks should be expected if you dress a certain way. To use John’s term have the self-possession to shrug it off and move on. Renee has also stated that women make crude remarks constantly…
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
So your just refuse to believe a woman who says she feels raped when strange men make comments about her private parts on the street! You got a lot of respect for other peoples experience too! see, you just don’t get it, because it never happens to you. You don’t have to worry about men getting in your face whenever you walk on the street (no matter what you wear) and making remarks about your t**, your a*, your c** and what they want to do to you. I have been raped you ignorant twit and every time they come up to me and start that talk it brings it all back. Sometimes I can’t even go out I get so scared. I had to drop out of school because I was too scared to go down there. Vincent has been raped, and he knows! I hope your a beautiful female in your next life! That’d be justice for YOU.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this
“If you can’t stand the heat, then don’t wear the clothing”?… in other words, anyone wearing revealing clothes must want to be treated like a sex object?
No, that’s NOT the correct conclusion, Mara. The correct conclusion is that if you wear a t-shirt that says “Look at my boobs” and someone says “Nice Boobs” then you’re an idiot for being offended by that. A rational person should KNOW that if they wear certain kinds of clothing that some people are going to treat them in a certain way, and accept that as part of the clothing.
If I walk down the street in Rennaisance festival clothing, some people are going to say insulting and rude things to me. Does that mean I ASK to be insulted? No. Do I KNOW that the possibility exists that I will be insulted? Yes.
As to my deference comment, I stand by it. Women want and deserve to be treated as absolutely equal to me. Given that, they shouldn’t expect the kind of dainty-flower deference that men gave women 100 years ago. That doesn’t mean men won’t continue to give that kind of deference, it just means that they shouldn’t expect it, because such treatment is implicitly designed to divide men and women in to non-equal classes.
Whiley, and you aren’t fooling anyone, I respect women more than most people. I have never mistreated a woman in my entire life and I will never mistreat a woman. Your problem, beyond the fact that you are deeply emotionally damaged, is that you think any man who is in any way sexual is a deviant pervert. You have such twisted views of men it’s a wonder you are able to function in society. Obviously, the only men you would feel comfortable around are castrati. I feel sorry for you. I think you need serious therapy in order to get over whatever trauma has damaged you so badly.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this
” think we’re closing in on an important expectation here. Whiley and some others (Mara, possibly?) seem to be aiming for a society where a woman can wear “whatever she wants, wherever she wants” and get NO REACTION WHATSOEVER.”
Mara & Whiley. Would you really like to get no reaction at all?
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this
What a bunch of idiots. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT WE WEAR IT HAPPENS ANYWAY ! ! ! ! !
MOST women don’t walk around with our privates hanging out. MOST ALL women don’t go around sexually harrassing men on the streets they don’t know. MEN DON’T LIVE ALWAYS ON GUARD BECAUSE OF WOMEN.
There is huge difference. Men of course, will defend this bad behavior no matter what, & will blame women AS USUAL.
SO, when you guys finally become 4th class citizens of this world with your rights stripped away, don’t be surprised & remember it is YOUR SH@#$#y behavior that caused it.
You have made it clear that you cannot be responsible for your own actions, so most of you should be contained like dogs obviously.
I can see it now, an expanded leash law lolol !
By LYRAZEL
June 6, 2006 12:18 PM | Link to this
What is HYSTERICAL to me is the reaction of men (and women) when a woman opens up her top to breastfeed an infant. Like suddenly breasts are grossest things on the planet. Suddenly seeing a breast is beyond repulsive…and when people see real live breasts actually being used for the purpose they are intended—it never fails to get derisive comments! Eyes rapidly turn away and conversations mull comments about what activities should be done in public and what is private…….
Guys in speedos are nothing compared to bike shorts without undies…
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
(The thing is that a woman who has never been raped has no place saying that words make her feel raped, because she doesn’t know what rape feels like any more than I do.) I bet she has been raped, or come close to it, since most women have. We imagine all the time what we would do if we were raped. How much time do you spend thinking about it? None! Should we scream or not? Should we fight back or not? (You will never know until it actually happens to you, but keep taking self-defense classes and buy a gun and learn to use it women) We lock up the windows and the doors in our houses every night so nobody can crawl through the window. We’re on guard every minute we’re out. We check the back seat of the car every time we get in and get somebody to walk us to our car if it’s dark. But you just go ahead worrying about some girl’s clit-piercing in the mall, you creep. (I wouldn’t comment on it, but at the same time plenty of guys would.)!!! I’m looking around for them other guys on here you liar!
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this
” think we’re closing in on an important expectation here. Whiley and some others (Mara, possibly?) seem to be aiming for a society where a woman can wear “whatever she wants, wherever she wants” and get NO REACTION WHATSOEVER.”
That’s a ridiculous, ignorant, sexist comment.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this
“Given that, they shouldn’t expect the kind of dainty-flower deference that men gave women 100 years ago.”
lol yea when women had no rights at all. Think society is sexist now???
Yea women were SO LUCKY back then.
LOL !
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
Read todays paper. A woman was attacked in her OWN DRIVEWAY getting out of HER CAR.
Gee I wonder what she was wearing?
By Jack
June 6, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
pointingoutcreepymenismyjob. You should not be afraid to go out in public. Predators are like animals and they can sense fear.Don’t let that bastard win. Get a 32cal pistol and a permit to carry it. Tell those rude pieces of s—t to shove it, if they come near you, show them you mean it.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
So your just refuse to believe a woman who says she feels raped when strange men make comments about her private parts on the street! You got a lot of respect for other peoples experience too! see, you just don’t get it, because it never happens to you. You don’t have to worry about men getting in your face whenever you walk on the street (no matter what you wear) and making remarks about your t, your a, your c and what they want to do to you. I have been raped you ignorant twit and every time they come up to me and start that talk it brings it all back. Sometimes I can’t even go out I get so scared. I had to drop out of school because I was too scared to go down there. Vincent has been raped, and he knows! I hope your a beautiful female in your next life! That’d be justice for YOU.*
I might have to face a man saying that to me. I don’t know. Who’s to say a gay guy won’t come on to me and not let up with it? The difference is that I would politely express my disinterest. That, and the fact that I wouldn’t be walking around with my azz hanging out of my shorts! That is the point we are making here!
I’m sorry you were raped. But it wasn’t my fault. It was the guy that did it. I’m sorry guys saying things brings back those memories. But are you honestly telling me that, forced to choose between hearing those comments and actually being raped again, you couldn’t make that choice because they are equally bad? It sounds to me like you have some issues that need to be addressed in therapy. And I don’t mean that in a condescending way in the least. You really need to talk to someone that can help you get past it.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
Okay, at this point Whiley has gone beyond extremist into the realm of “raving fanatic.” It’s really starting to get amusing, which is a shame for such a serious subject.
Yes, Whiley; I wholeheartedly endorse rude remarks made to women at all times. That’s why I’ve repeatedly condemned such rudeness as ‘rude.’ That’s the same as defending such behavior in Whiley World.
And yes, all my comments are sexist—because after all, I’m a man making them. That MAKES them sexist, right?
“Men can’t be held responsible for their actions” is my motto. In fact, I have it as a bumper sticker, right alongside “Hold the government accountable” and “abortion rights now.” (But I guess I only support abortion rights for my own selfish, sexist reasons, right? Like I want to screw around a lot and not have to pay child-support.)
Whiley, you’ve chosen to live in constant fear and outrage. Men haven’t victimized you—you’ve made yourself a victim.
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
72John, (The correct conclusion is that if you wear a t-shirt that says “Look at my boobs” and someone says “Nice Boobs” then you’re an idiot for being offended by that.) I’m not talking about that! I never have and never will wear such a shirt. I’m hassled on the street wearing a big flannel shirt and jeans, or a suit, or a skirt and blouse. If I put my hair up under a cap (thats real nice when it’s 95 degrees) it isn’t quite so bad. If you would stop thinking you know every damn thing about everything for one fast minute, you’d see we’re not talking about that. Maybe you can choose whether to be sexy or not by the way you dress. Some of us don’t get to choose! And I don’t care if you think I should not be able to walk down the street without being hassled and yelled at and whistled at and motors racing and people being crude to me; I think I should!
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
Pointing: I feel “raped” by your hurtful comments on a message board. And since my feelings are valid, you are therefore a rapist.
This is beyond ridiculous now.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
Some people on this blog need to get laid big-time…
Whiley — in what way is his comment even remotely sexist?
POCMIMJ — I have thought about what I would do were someone trying to rape me. I’d fight like hell. I lock my doors. I lock my windows. I’m not so scared of life in general that I’ve taken to carrying a gun or anything, but for the most part you’re talking about common sense stuff.
Is there anyone on here who recognizes that my little clit piercing in the mall scenario was hyperbole? Anyone? Waht does it say that people accept that as an actual occurrence? Have you actually seen that or something? Anyway, you sexist man-hater, the type of guys that would say something to the girl in that completely fabricated, over-the-top situation are not the type of guys that would spend their time here, on a paper’s web site, debating issues and the arguments put forth by two women. They spend every second they have online looking at porn and discussing the ways the latest X-Men movie differed from the comic books.
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
Does what men wear contribute to sexual assault? See what a silly question that is? Men don’t ever have to worry about sexual assault - well, onece in while from another man! Even if you got a pierced pr—k or the gay-boy nipples pierced with chains hanging down to your crotch, you don’t worry about being raped! You men don’t know what the fu— you’re talking about.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this
Sure Jack. I’ll bite :^)
As a matter of fact I do hope that one day we acheive a society that allows women (and men) to wear whatever they want without being labled as “whore”, “slut”, or any of the other perjoratives regularly heaped on people who are comfortable in their skin. Just because that seems to be unacheivable doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be strived for. I would rather live in a society where ones choice of dress was less important than ones comportment. I would like to live in a society that judges me on the content of my character and not the content of my closet. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
As an individual I don’t have much quibble with risque humor or the double entendre. When I leave the house in my hypothetical sequined halter, daisy dukes and heels I do expect that some pig will say something. That doesn’t mean I have to like it or that I think there’s anything acceptable to it. I just happen to like sparkly clothes. I guess that enduring rudeness is the price I have to pay in order to wear pretty things. And, much like John suggested, I just shrug it off as a cad being a cad.
By pointingoutcreepymenismyjob
June 6, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this
BrianCurtis, have not said a damn word to you. Just goes to show how you men will stick up for each other no matter what!
By Jack
June 6, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
Whiley. You need a hug really bad. I’m sending you one through cyber-space.
By Nikita
June 6, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
Ya know, I was sexually assaulted on a public bus, and stalked by a sexual predator who stalked 30+ other women and eventually managed to grab one, rape her, and bash her head in with a rock. Know what I was wearing? A knee-length knit skirt and cap-sleeve top. It wasn’t particularly suggestive, but I burned it afterward.
Anyway, rapists don’t need stimulation to choose victims. Women of all ages and descriptions are raped, though young women are at most danger because they are naive and their social patterns are more mutable than those of older women, and they are less protected than children.
I, personally, would never dress in any way to accommodate the expectations of people who don’t respect the basic rights and privacy of other people, though as a matter of self-respect I dress in a manner that is flattering and tasteful. After my assault I decided that the best revenge was getting my life back. I now do what I want, when I want, and I fear no one. God pity the fool who attempts to assault me, or anyone that I have the power to protect.
By FatMoose
June 6, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this
I am of the opinion that people dress and style themselves to show what group they belong to: IE hippies dress like hippies so that others can identify (discriminate) them as such, surfer do the same, as do hip-hop, businessmen/women etc…
I agree with NetB that no-one, men or women, know exacly what to think about someone who is dressed scantily. If a guy she thinks is cute is checking her out, it is a good thing; but the guys that are not of acceptable class/status are leary.
How you dres IS advertisement of who you think you are and who you are trying to attract. I had long hair and got tons of crap in South Ga as we discussed and ALWAYS knew that, although classless, the comments made by rednecks were bc I defined a difference in status.
I wresting with this notion quite a lot. I figure that the lesbian with a mullet and baggy pants/shirt is dressed that way FOR people to be able to discriminate (look up the word before reacting! To discern or tell a difference bw…) them from others; but at the same time do not want the negative disrimination (which I agree with as above SHOULDNT happen). This seams to create a complexity that most humans cannot wrap their heads totally around yet (I want to be discriminated but not).
By The72John
June 6, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this
SO, when you guys finally become 4th class citizens of this world with your rights stripped away, don’t be surprised & remember it is YOUR SH@#$#y behavior that caused it
Oh, sweetie. I’m gay. I’m already a 4th class citizen, and right now, today, there are people trying to pass legislation that will stip even more of my rights away and make it virtually impossible for me to get them. The President of the United States is trying to convince the country that discrimination aimed directly at me should be written into the Constitution. Nice try, but you are SO preaching to the wrong person.
And I don’t care if you think I should not be able to walk down the street without being hassled and yelled at and whistled at and motors racing and people being crude to me; I think I should
Frankly, I think you should be intelligent enough to realize that people are going to do this and not worry about it. YOU own your problem, not the guy whistling at you from the construction site. I’m deeply sorry you were raped, but what you are doing is blaming every single man you encounter for the actions of one person, and projecting onto him the presumption that he will do the same thing. That is simply irrational and irrelevant.
That’s a ridiculous, ignorant, sexist comment.
Yes, Whiley. Every man who disagrees with you is just ignorant and sexist.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this
Maybe you can choose whether to be sexy or not by the way you dress. Some of us don’t get to choose! We’re just that hot!
Seriously, though. No one is excusing the behavior! You have every right to get mad about it! We’re specifically addressing the overtly sexual manner in which SOME women dress, and we’re saying that certain comments in response to that dress is, while rude, to be expected. If it isn’t expected in those situations then someone does not have a steady grip on reality. We are NOT saying that YOU dress like that. Nor are we defending the “street harassers”.
But the guys have the right to say things, too. Whistling? Whistling is offensive? Do you realize the extreme to which you are taking things here? What should a guy say to you if he wants to ask you out? What should he say if he thinks you’re hot? How is a guy supposed to approach you if he is interested in a relationship, not rape, unlike apparently every other guy in the planet?
By The72John
June 6, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this
BrianCurtis, have not said a damn word to you. Just goes to show how you men will stick up for each other no matter what!
Two words…Public. Blog.
Whiley. You need a hug really bad. I’m sending you one through cyber-space
She doesn’t need a hug, she needs therapy.
By creepymen
June 6, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
(Some people on this blog need to get laid big-time…) And your such a typical pig! I had a bet going with another girl here that you would say that before long! You woman hater! You are disgusting.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
Pointing: You mean I’m directing my hostility at someone who hasn’t attacked me? Why, how very unreasonable of me.
I sense the irony is lost on you.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this
Archie - Mara you have a problem with women being criticized …
No Archie. I have no problem with women being criticized when they do something wrong. I’ll criticize those women who trap men into fatherhood. I’ll even admit that some women value men for their wallets and not their character. I’ll condemn lazy women, stupid women, hypocritical women…you name it, if she deserves the criticism I’ll give it. But that’s not what we’re talking about today. I’m arguing that women don’t deserve to be criticized for their fashion choices, nor should they have to put up with men who think that a little skin is an invitation to treat her rudely. I mean, what is wrong with wearing a (non-sequined…) halter top over a pair of khaki shorts in the middle of summer and then wanting to not be harrassed by some guy? Give me a good rationale and I’ll criticize with you.
You criticize women for wearing clothes they happen to like and then daring to have an expectation that they will NOT be harrassed in public. I think that’s bull and I’m not afraid to say that women are not responsible for the bad behaviour of some men. No matter how many times her boob falls out.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
Nikita, I am so sorry that happened to you. I know what it’s like. I’m seeing a counselor but it just happened to me a few weeks ago, so awful to be violated like that. Will I ever be able to look at a man as a friend again or trust a man again. He’s still out there somewhere. I couldnt stand to stay in my house and I had to move from a place I loved where I’d lived for six years. I’m still scared all the time, can’t sleep, hear every little noise esp at night, jumpy, flashbacks. I would like to find him and torture him. All my male friends all acted like, okay you were raped but you didn’t get killed and it’s no big deal! Like, move on and don’t talk about it. Some even tried to joke about it - like, oh if only it would happen to me. This is really a cold world we live in.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
I don’t hate women. I love women! I hate it when people refuse to live in the real world, where some people are rude for no reason. I hate it when people refuse to acknowledge that their own actions can inspire rudeness. I hate it when people try to twist my words into something other than what I said. I hate it when people fail to realize their own hypocrisy, accusing me of hating others after having lumped me into a group with rapists.
Seek therapy.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this
yeay Jack I love hugs !
(see, I’m accepting a hug from a guy I don’t even know because he isn’t acting like an out of control perv)
lol !
By Jack
June 6, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
This has gotten way outta control. Men will NEVER understand what it is like to be a woman. The males on this blog as far as we know have never raped anyone and are just giving an opinion. If I walked up on a rape as it was occuring, God help the perp. Most men on this blog would feel the same as I. Cut us some slack.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
(But the guys have the right to say things, too. Whistling? Whistling is offensive? Do you realize the extreme to which you are taking things here? What should a guy say to you if he wants to ask you out? What should he say if he thinks you’re hot? How is a guy supposed to approach you if he is interested in a relationship, not rape, unlike apparently every other guy in the planet?) Well what other ways are there? Yes, whistling is offensive and juvenil and pig behavior. I guess there are a lot of men who never saw a woman before! But they don’t do it to flatter me. They do it to prove to each other what MEN they are because they’re a tinsy bit insecure about the size of it ya know! Idiot questions! you know the anser to your idiot questions - or do you?
BC, so you have nipple piercings and chains hanging to your crotch?
By JAMES
June 6, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this
had to jump ahead and post this comment. it was asked why do men feel the need to comment if some woman’s boob pops out or it they can see the genital piercings on a woman while she’s at the mall, that one is simple. why not? why wait? granted, i would mention something to the person i’m with but not to the general public. if the question was rhetorical and i really wanted an answer, i’d walk up and ask the wearer. i thought piercings were for decoration anyway. why get offended if someone notices and comments on your decorations?
By heather
June 6, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this
if rape is a result of the way a woman dresses then explain to me why 70 year old women are raped. im thinking it’s not because of their short skirt or low cut shirt. rape is not encouraged. if a person has it in their head that they’re going to rape you then what you’re wearing isn’t going to make a difference.
rape is a very traumatizing experience and telling a woman that she had it coming because she chose to look cute or fashionable or whatever you want to call it is just plain wrong. it is not a womans fault that some men out there are sick.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
“All my male friends all acted like, okay you were raped but you didn’t get killed and it’s no big deal! Like, move on and don’t talk about it. Some even tried to joke about it - like, oh if only it would happen to me. This is really a cold world we live in.”
EXACTLY. Men won’t ever truly understand how is really is for women. NEVER. I’m beginning to think they really don’t give a SH@#$ anyway because it isn’t something they really have to worry about & because then they’d have to finally admit how out of control their own kind is. OH they care when it happens to a wife, girlfriend, mother, sister. But generally they don’t care enough to do anything about it. I mean, men basically still rule most of this damn world, they could stop it if they REALLY wanted to. I’m not going to hold my breath.
With all that in mind, I pardon my overall negative opinion of the other sex. Except for gay men, they seem to be the only guys with their s** together,(one on this blog I’m no so sure of tho)
By The72John
June 6, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
(see, I’m accepting a hug from a guy I don’t even know because he isn’t acting like an out of control perv)
Cite examples where any man posting on this blog is “acting like an out-of-control perv. Please!
By Mara
June 6, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
and Archie, would you please explain what this means “As men we will try to “get over” on women using words and charm but most of us will not ever rape, but some women want attention and will be very slick about their approach”
that’s what I was trying to parse and since you wouldn’t put it in straight english, I had to deduce (or parse) the meanings. Which, from the content of the replys, I did very badly.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
Here’s a novel idea. Set standards for yourself. When someone approaches you in a demeaning way don’t respond, ignore them. I ignore whistles, catcalls, inuendos all the time. I don’t respond or give the time of day, to anyone who can’t approach me like a lady.
Additionally, are rude people not expected, no matter the situation??? So why would should these same rude people, suddenly no longer be rude because you have on your sexy clothes. Rude people are a part of life.
I don’t know who made the lesbian comment (I don’t feel like scrolling back up), but I would venture to say that a lesbian who wears a mullet, is not doing it to be “discriminated” against or to be identified as a lesbian. This is attire they feel comfortable with and they, themselves, identify with it.
I think it was pointing (Whiley) who said “most women have come close to being raped”. On what basis, do you make this statement? And to say that men have nothing to worry about, is ridiculous. Yes, a woman has a higher likelihood of being raped, but this does not discount men at all. I don’t think the men who have been victims of rape and/or sexual assault would appreciate their horrific experience being trivialized.
John, your Renaiisance (sp) comment was too funny.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
I too find whistling offensive, however many women DO in fact respond and DO NOT find it offensive. The only way to let a man know how you feel is to ignore or tell him. Most likely the whistling man has done fine picking up women in this manner or he would not continue doing so. Either that or he doesn’t give a big happy what is offensive to someone. (these people exist to, and have the right to do so).
Offensiveness, just as beauty, differs in views from one person to the other.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
So JAMES, the answer to my question regarding the need to comment is a simple “Why not?” Um, cuz it’s rude? Cuz it’s none of your business? Cuz unless you’ve never seen a boob before it’s no novelty? It sort of sounds like you’re saying that men feel a need to comment on womens anatomy for the same reason they’re compelled to climb a mountain…because it’s there. ;^)
By FatMoose
June 6, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this
I don’t know who made the lesbian comment (I don’t feel like scrolling back up), but I would venture to say that a lesbian who wears a mullet, is not doing it to be “discriminated” against or to be identified as a lesbian. This is attire they feel comfortable with and they, themselves, identify with it.
Renee, Look up the word discriminate as directed after the use of the word in my post. It is exactly what you ended with in your sentence: “This is attire they feel comfortable with and they, themselves, identify with it.”
And also bc people of like minds will be able to discriminate them from being straight bc THEY identify with it also.
Another example, I would fidn it neat that with long hair and the glam (yes..hehe) attire that went with it would attract other people of like minds. But when backwoods rednecks would make a negative comments or beat up/harrass a friend, I wanted them to “ignore” the differences we exhibited. I have since grown up and know you cannot have it both ways.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
With all that in mind, I pardon my overall negative opinion of the other sex. Except for gay men, they seem to be the only guys with their s* together,(one on this blog I’m no so sure of tho*
I’m guessing the only men you feel comfortable with, period, are feminine men, and you relate to gay men well because they are distinctly non-threatening. I would even go so far as to say you are only comfortable around feminine gay men. As I am not even remotely feminine, it’s unsurprising that you “don’t think I have my Sh!t together”.
As for your suggestion that men could stop rape if they really wanted to - are you insane? Oh wait…yes. You are. How on earth do you think this would be accomplished, and do you REALLY think that the average person in this country doesn’t ABHOR the concept of rape?
Seriously, you are so obviously deeply emotionally disturbed and harbor EXTREME hatred towards any man who behaves in a sexual manner or expresses ANY kinds of sexual sentiment, no matter how benign.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
” think it was pointing (Whiley) who said “most women have come close to being raped”. On what basis, do you make this statement?”
Living life, going to school, having to drive home late at night, attending party’s, walking in a parking lot, being on dates, etc. DUH !
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this
Renee, I don’t believe for one second you are a female, because a woman would never say the stupid SH@#$ you do.
By JAMES
June 6, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
well, women seem to comment on another woman’s anatomy just as often as men. and they do it to be b***. do you or others feel threatened when another woman comments? do you feel violated?
and asking a man to understand what it’s liked to be raped isn’t so off the wall. find one that’s been raped and i’m sure he’ll give an answer u approve of. ask a man that hasn’t been raped and he won’t understand. it’s a fact that at least u weren’t killed but say that is only a lack of tact, not empathy or sorrow for u.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
rape is a very traumatizing experience and telling a woman that she had it coming because she chose to look cute or fashionable or whatever you want to call it is just plain wrong.
Kindly show where anyone has said this here…
EXACTLY. Men won’t ever truly understand how is really is for women. NEVER. I’m beginning to think they really don’t give a SH@#$ anyway because it isn’t something they really have to worry about & because then they’d have to finally admit how out of control their own kind is. OH they care when it happens to a wife, girlfriend, mother, sister. But generally they don’t care enough to do anything about it. I mean, men basically still rule most of this damn world, they could stop it if they REALLY wanted to. I’m not going to hold my breath.
How many times have you said that rape is the fault of the rapist alone? Now it’s my fault that rapes are still occurring? How is that? If I happen upon a rape in progress, I’ll do everything I can nto stop it, but apart from that what am I supposed to do? Put on a cape and run around, breaking into houses to see if a rape is occuring there? Please!
And I’m not saying that whistling cannot be offensive. I’m just trying to reitertate the fact that it is, in no way, anywhere close to being rape.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
“Here’s a novel idea. Set standards for yourself. When someone approaches you in a demeaning way don’t respond, ignore them. I ignore whistles, catcalls, inuendos all the time.”
Yea that really works for the guys that are following right behind you yelling out real loud for everybody to hear “hey !, hey lady !, sexy girl, wheewww I’m talking to you !”. “f@#$ING B*** YOU THINK YOU’RE TOO GOOD !?”
You whistle to animals, not human beings that do NOT WANT TO BE HARRASSED or made frightened. It’s BS, those guys know EXACTLY what they are doing & how it makes women feel. Men like that should be contained.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Mara - your 1:47 I absolutely agree with. The one thing I think you are losing sight of, is that some people will say what is on their mind. Some people lack tact at the very least, or have no manners at worst. Not everyone, but some. And while it’s rude and demeaning to the person on the receiving end, it’s not illegal. In a perfect world, nobody would say anything to anyone out of the way, nobody would worry about how another person looks. But, this is not the case.
There are situations you can’t control, and definitely people you can’t control. Like the point made earlier, rudeness etc, is a far cry from assault.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this
Renee, I don’t believe for one second you are a female, because a woman would never say the stupid SH@#$ you do.
Hmm…by that logic you must be a Double-Y male, then. Because you sure do pile on the sh!t.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
” think it was pointing (Whiley) who said “most women have come close to being raped”. On what basis, do you make this statement?”
Living life, going to school, having to drive home late at night, attending party’s, walking in a parking lot, being on dates, etc. DUH !
HAHAHAHA!
OH my God! You went to school? You were almost raped! Oh my God! You drove home at night? You were almost raped! Oh my God! You went to a party? You were almost raped! Oh my God! You walked across a parking lot? You were almost raped! Oh my God! You went on a date? You were almost raped!
By JAMES
June 6, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
Mara, if it’s not my business why is in out in a public place for all to view? is it only the business of those that don’t comment. also, even if u’ve seen thousands of boobs, there may be a one that’s a novelty.
why do women climb mountains???
By Billy
June 6, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this
hehehe — reitertate…
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
to claim that dress has no effect on perceptions is ludicrous Extremely true! Just think about how one is treated walking into Neiman Marcus in cutoffs and an old t-shirt vs wearing twill shorts and a polo shirt. They’re basically the same pieces of clothing, but the perception is completely different as is the way one is treated. I travel somewhat frequently with my job and can usually wear what I want during travel. There is a marked difference in my treatment EVERYWHERE when I am in my suit vs jeans. Clothes absolutely make a difference.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
“As for your suggestion that men could stop rape if they really wanted to - are you insane?”
You’re right, how could I ever think men would actually DO anything to stop rape? Silly me.
You are obviously out of control dogs that can’t be controlled or re-trained, nor do you want to.
How nice.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Whiley, sweetie, I really don’t give a damn what you think.
But, I don’t believe for one minute, YOU are an SANE, ADULT female with the STUPID SH@T you say!!!!!
The things you say put you wayyyyy out in left field, off the field. With your statements, I picture you at home, with a bottle of pills and a martini, just typing whatever comes to mind.
Oh and living life, does not equate “almost being raped”. Almost being raped is being forcibly taken down (either by physical or some other sort of intimidating) and you managed to “escape”. Me going to the movies tonight means I was “almost raped”.
Whoever said it earlier was right — maybe Brian— this is getting comical.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Billy you’re an idiot. I never said I was almost raped at all those places, but for sure over my lifetime I have been made afraid by some dumb AZZ man at ALL THOSE PLACES.
Women are raped or attempted raped at schools, parties, in parking lots, parks, at home, YOU NAME IT YOU IDIOT.
And like that woman last night, IN HER OWN DRIVEWAY ! So you need to shut your dumb AZZ MAN MOUTH.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Yea that really works for the guys that are following right behind you yelling out real loud for everybody to hear “hey !, hey lady !, sexy girl, wheewww I’m talking to you !”. “f@#$ING B* YOU THINK YOU’RE TOO GOOD !?”
This is the point in the discussion where Whiley contends that no matter where she goes, she is followed by hordes of men doing what is described above, as well as pulling out their johnsons and waving them at her, and barely containing themselves from attempting to rape her. She will also contend that all women encounter this all the time, and that all men are perpetrators of said actions.
Now, when we say “Gosh, I’ve spent a whole lot of time with women, out in public, in bars, etc. and I have NEVER seen men behaving like this” or “Well…I see women walking alone all the time, and there are no hordes of screaming perverts following behind them”, she will say LOL it happens all the time U are such a stupid AZZ ‘cause you are a man!
By Renee
June 6, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
If I happen upon a rape in progress, I’ll do everything I can nto stop it, but apart from that what am I supposed to do? Put on a cape and run around, breaking into houses to see if a rape is occuring there? Please!
HAAAAAA!!! LOL!!!
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
It is estimated (FBI, 1998) that 371 out of 100,000 women will become the victim of rape each year, incidences can reach as high as one-in-four when attempted rape and coercion are also considered over a woman’s lifetime (Koss, 1988). 30% of college men interviewed disclosed that they would rape a woman if they could be assured that they would never be caught. Another study by Check and Malamuth (1983) found that 26% of college men admitted to having made a forceful attempt at sexual intercourse that caused observable distress to the woman (e.g., screaming, fighting, pleading, or crying).
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Mr. Renee is clearly a man lol !
And probably one of those that follows females when they ignore his rude come-on.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Pirog-Good and Stets (1989) reported that 39% of male students surveyed indicated it was “all right” to force sex if a girl was “stoned” or “drunk.”
By The72John
June 6, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
You’re right, how could I ever think men would actually DO anything to stop rape? Silly me.
You are obviously out of control dogs that can’t be controlled or re-trained, nor do you want to
How nice
Still not answering the question, Whiley. How do you propose that the vast majority of men living in this country who have never and will never rape a woman act to prevent some crazed individual lurking in the bushes from attacking an innocent person? Do you have some radical crime prevention ideas that you would like to share with us?
No, your statement says it all - “You’re obviously ALL”. Any man you can’t dominate is a threat to you. Any man who doesn’t meekly bow to your will is an animal. All men need to be “chained”.
How sad life must be for you, Whiley…I still wonder what tragedy has shaped you into the fragile shell that you so obviously are. Or, are you just clinically insane?
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
Research conducted by Butt (1980), Holcomb, Holcomb, Sondag, and Williams (1991), and Dean and Malamuth (1997), shows that rape-tolerant attitudes are one of the most common contributors to the high prevalence of rape among college students. People who accept rape stereotypes, adversarial sexual beliefs, and traditional sex role attitudes show a greater acceptance of rape, and appear to condemn victims more. The research further suggests that males consistently hold more rape-tolerant attitudes and that these attitudes may be related to actual involvement in sexual violence (Dean & Malamuth, 1997, Holcomb et al., 1991; Koss, 1988; Rapaport & Burkhart, 1984). According to Burt (1980), rape-tolerant attitudes are comprised of the following: (1). Adversarial sexual beliefs: beliefs such as women are responsible for rape. (2). Traditionality: women are viewed as passive, sweet, and gentle, unlike men who are seen as aggressors, initiators, and proud of their sexual ability. (3). Acceptance of rape stereotypes: attitudes that prostitutes cannot be raped, rape only occurs when the victim has a weapon, or it is not definitely rape if a woman is intoxicated or wearing revealing clothes.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
The purpose of this study is to assess rape attitudes and empathy levels of college students in a selected university setting in North Texas.
Hypotheses:
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
“this is getting comical.”
That PROVES Renee is a man, he thinks rape is a joke.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Once again gender is found to be a significant determinant in attitudes and empathy levels. Future rape-prevention programs could address the male population as a target group for awareness of attitudes, rape myths, and stereotypes. In the study reported by Malamuth (1981), over 30% of male respondents when assured that they would not be caught, replied that they would rape a woman. It is here that testimonials and panels of rape survivors may be useful in injecting “real life” emotions and reactions of sexual assault.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
JAMES, women climb mountains for the excersize, of course.
Renee - must point out that I don’t think harrassing and rude comments are anywhere comparable to rape. I do think it’s rude and annoying, though.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
And here we reach the inevitable conclusion to all discussions with Whiley:
Any woman who disagrees with her, to ANY degree, clearly must not be a woman.
Any man who disagrees with her, to ANY degree, is excusing rape, is perfectly happy with women being harassed, and is otherwise an uncontrollable molesting animal who should be leashed and caged… no matter how many times they’ve said the exact opposite.
Whiley World is a fun and fascinating place indeed.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
John - OMG, your 2:20 is hilarious. LMAO!!! That is the truth. The visual of that scenario…hahahahaha.
Yes, Whiley, you found me out. SHHHHHHH, don’t tell the others!!!
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
The socialized ‘deafness’ of men toward women, and the likelihood that a man will interpret a situation to have stronger sexual overtones than a woman will - leads to the belief among many men (and some women) in ‘justifiable rape’, somewhat along the lines of ‘justifiable homicide’.
In ‘justifiable rape’, the victim’s behavior is seen as being responsible for triggering the man’s action.
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
Is there anyone on here who recognizes that my little clit piercing in the mall scenario was hyperbole? Anyone? Waht does it say that people accept that as an actual occurrence? Have you actually seen that or something? I understood your comment to be just a comment to illuminate what might happen. I’ve seen more than few cases of ‘camel toe’ but not sure I’ve ever identified a clit ring that way. Although the stripper who lived upstairs when I had an apartment in Midtown did knock on my door right after getting hers pierced and when I opened my door she said “Look what I just got!” and then hauled up her dress so I could see….as could everyone on Argonne Avenue since the front door to the building was open.
I’m coming to the conclusion that gay men are waaayyy more polite even in somewhat sexually charged environs. Sure I’ve had my a* grabbed in a bar or even someone tug my nipple ring on the dance floor, but a simple ‘no thanks’ has pretty much always been sufficient. It’s a rare occassion that the person didn’t get the hint and I had to be blunt to the point that I felt like I was being rude, but didn’t have a choice.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Deep breath. Breath….
OK, on with the fray. Later tater.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this
Brian & John, you have to stop!! ROFL!!!
By Archie
June 6, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
“I mean, what is wrong with wearing a (non-sequined…) halter top over a pair of khaki shorts in the middle of summer and then wanting to not be harrassed by some guy? Give me a good rationale and I’ll criticize with you”
Nothing is wrong with that choice of dress in that paragraph.
“and Archie, would you please explain what this means “As men we will try to “get over” on women using words and charm but most of us will not ever rape, but some women want attention and will be very slick about their approach””
Mara, I apologize because I really did believe everyone understood that statement. My bad. My explanation is this men try to get sex using words and charm but are not sincere about having a relationship and when used the words very slick, I was saying that women wear certain clothes to get attention or in the pool hall example I used some of the women were trying to get guys to buy their drinks. I used to hang out with women that would converse long enough to get a couple of drinks then give the wrong phone number to a guy,thus I used the word slick. “Get over” is a slang term for tricking someone. Some of my opinions come from women themselves. Mara, I apologize because we are from different cultures obviously,but please try and understand that most men don’t have any intention of raping anybody and most guys don’t make crude comments. I was at the table next to the young lady when her boob fell out and I don’t know if the guy she was playing pool with said anything or not but she wasn’t that concerned that her boobs were showing. All the men and Renee have been saying is that someone at some point will say something if style of dress is suggestive. As for me I will not approve of my daughter or spouse wearing something so loose and low that their boobs are showing. The pool hall is not a strip club and there is a such thing as appropiate dress. Mara you obviously are different than Renee,72John,Billy, and myself and the reason I agree with them is because we have some cultural similarity. I have not intended to offend Mara or any woman I am just expressing an opinion. My only suggestion to some would be to get out of the house and experience a different culture. 72John and Renee have made some good points. All women aren’t angels and they know what they want and how they want to go about getting it. Mara you seem like a person that wants to understand some things so just reading and go to a pool hall frequented by men and women and check out your kind it will surprise you just like it did me.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
That PROVES Renee is a man, he thinks rape is a joke.
No, Renee (and the rest of us) think that YOU are a joke.
And you are so SMART to figure “him” out. Renee has just been pretending for all these months to be an African-American lesbian of, from what I am led to understand, model-like looks. In reality, she’s a white fat guy named Bubba who spends his time on construction sites harrassing women.
That makes SO much sense.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Statistics. Male vs Female arrest for crimes of violence
Quoting the 1991 InformationPlease_ almanac:
Total arrests (est 1989): 14,340,900 (male—86.2%, female 13,8%)
Arrests for violent crimes (1989):
Male % Female %Murder 14,852 88.2 1,989 11.8 Forcible Rape 27,796 98.8 325 1.2 Agg. Assault 281,196 86.7 43,215 13.3 Abuses against family & children 42,724 82.0 9,366 18.0 Sex offenses other than forcible rape & vice 70,737 92.4 5,810 7.6
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Yea that really works for the guys that are following right behind you yelling out real loud for everybody to hear “hey !, hey lady !, sexy girl, wheewww I’m talking to you !”. “f@#$ING B* YOU THINK YOU’RE TOO GOOD !?” Isn’t that more of a comment on the man than it is the woman he’s following? I’ve seen similar things happen when I rode MARTA daily and to be honest the reaction I saw from most people was a look of disgust for the guy. I’m sure this is going to sound like a bigotted or racist comment, but here I go anyway…my personal observation is that the outrageously rude behaviors Whiley and some other women on here have encountered is more typical in some ethnic communities than others. To be super blunt, my observations of boorish, rude behavior is that it is more frequently displayed by young, urban, black men than others.
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
You’re right, how could I ever think men would actually DO anything to stop rape? Silly me. What practical actions can men take to stop men unknown to them from raping? I’m willing to try to do something about it, but need some direction since I’m admittedly a bit clueless about how or what to do.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
“JAMES, women climb mountains for the excersize, of course.”
We only do it to improve the curves of our aZZ’s because our only goal in life is to make some nasty guy drool out of control & wet his shorts.
By The72John
June 6, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this
pointingatcreepymen, what is your point in quoting these statistics in this discussion? Is this just unrefined male-bashing, or did you actually have something to contribute other than “All men are evil, murdering raping pigs who think women deserve it”?
Just asking.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this
*Billy you’re an idiot. I never said I was almost raped at all those places, but for sure over my lifetime I have been made afraid by some dumb AZZ man at ALL THOSE PLACES.
Women are raped or attempted raped at schools, parties, in parking lots, parks, at home, YOU NAME IT YOU IDIOT.*
I know they happen at all these places, but you actually said that “most” women have “almost been raped”, if memory serves. “Most” women have not almost been raped. “Being mad afraid by some dumb AZZ man” does not constitute being “almost raped”.
And like that woman last night, IN HER OWN DRIVEWAY ! So you need to shut your dumb AZZ MAN MOUTH.
And here we have the proof — Whiley just plain hates men. For all my supposed insensitivites/hatred of women, I do not recall ever saying anything like this. By saying dumb AZZ MAN MOUTH instead of dumb azz mouth, you have lowered the discussion into sexism. Much like a white guy beating up a black guy is just assault, while I white guy beating up a black guy while yelling “Nig&#r”, to borrow your very bestest favoritest analogy ever, is a hate crime. Adding “man” to your lame attempt to shout me down for being right just shows that you place no stock whatsoever in anything any man has to say.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
Pointing — Since when has a hypothesis counted as evidence of anything?
By Renee
June 6, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
Netbanker, unfortunate, but true. Didn’t sound bigotted or racist as all. Anytime, I experienced anything to that extreme was at 5 points, which I haven’t been to in years. I found ignoring them and not even acknowledging them worked for me. People going to that extreme, don’t want to meet the woman, they just enjoying acting like a-s-s-e-s.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
“socialized ‘deafness’ of men toward women” That is truly the case world wide.
Netbanker you are just trying to tell the truth. And you’re not wrong. I found that to be true in my case, particularly with hispanic men. They are extrememly open about their harrassment. Why is that?
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
I don’t hate all men, just the perverts, rapists, women beaters, controllers, murderers, cheaters & liars & especially ones that ignore the plight of women.
It’s not my fault that doesn’t leave many left.
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Renee! You nailed the location! I saw most of that behavior either when changing trains at 5 points or especially when I worked on Marietta Street. I agree with your comment on their enjoyment because I’d see the same guys harassing just about anyone for any reason they could. Being a skinny, white, blond, boy I got plenty of comments from them too. The confused look on their faces as I politely called them foul names or made really crude comments in return in French was priceless. I was only ‘caught’ once by a woman who spit out a mouthful of soda and then starting laughing loudly. Then the guy starting asking her what I’d said, but she just kept laughing and walked away.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
(Whiley. How do you propose that the vast majority of men living in this country who have never and will never rape a woman act to prevent some crazed individual lurking in the bushes from attacking an innocent person?) Not to answer for W., but I only aks for a change in attitude, a change from blaming in any way, a woman who is raped, a change from the attitudes expressed here for the past two days! Every change begins with a change in thinking.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
Whiley. because their women put up with it.
By Brian Curtis
June 6, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
So we’re definitely not talking about the original topic any more (clothing and sexual assault), right?
Because Whiley dispensed with any consideration of clothing when she announced that ALL women are CONSTANTLY being harassed at ALL TIMES regardless of what they’re wearing.
And more importantly, she also explained how whistles and rude remarks are FAR more upsetting than mere sexual assault… because whistles and rude remarks are rape and terrorism combined.
Yes, it’s a happy place, Whiley’s World.
By JAMES
June 6, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
“JAMES, women climb mountains for the excersize, of course.”
We only do it to improve the curves of our aZZ’s because our only goal in life is to make some nasty guy drool out of control & wet his shorts.
WHILEY, WHY DO U DO U WANNA MAKE NASTY GUYS DROOL? WHY DON’T U TRY TO MAKE A NICE GUY SMILE??
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this
Honestly, Whiley I think overt sexuality or sexual commentary is more acceptable in some cultures than others. Hispanic men would probably be the group I put right behind young, urban, black as most likely to harass. I see it all the time when I’m in the Miami area and also find I get many more comments in clubs that have a high number of hispanics or latinos. My casual observations of these cultures is that in both women are more objectified, manliness or machismo is more highly valued, and the dominant structure is patriarchal.
By JAMES
June 6, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
I GUESSS HARRASSMENT BY HISPANIC MEN CAN ONLY BE CONSIDERED HARRASSMENT IF U UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY’RE SAYING AND U ASK THEM TO STOP. DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT CONSTITUTES HARRASSMENT???
By The72John
June 6, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this
a change from the attitudes expressed here for the past two days
What attitudes? The attitudes that every man on her has expressed, that there is NO EXCUSE for raping anyone? That attitude?
You are just reading what you want to read, just like Whiley.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
I only aks for a change in attitude, a change from blaming in any way, a woman who is raped, a change from the attitudes expressed here for the past two days!
Where in the past two days has anyone blamed the rape victims? Where? We have repeatedly said that sexual assault is inexcusable and the fault of no one but the perpetrators.
Stretching “Skimpy clothes are going to attract looks and possibly comments” to “It’s the woman’s fault if she’s raped” is dishonest. No one has blamed women for sexual assaults. If anything, some here are blaming all men for the actions of a few the rest of us do not know.
By Zack
June 6, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
Yes, women contribute to it. I don’t know why some women would go near certain guys, let alone go out and tease the guy.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
“socialized ‘deafness’ of men toward women” = Brian.
Pointing (love the name ! lol) I agree. RAISE BOYS CORRECTLY. Supervise them more, teach them to respect ALL PEOPLE. Being abusive is WRONG. ZERO social tolerance for treating women badly. AS I said before, educated & raised correctly men would NEVER think of assaulting a woman in anyway, physically or verbally.
Boys aren’t born rapists or abusers, they are taught that behavior. KEEP TABS ON YOUR BOYS BETTER. And teach boys to stop looking away when they see abuse happening. Stop staying silent when others are getting out of hand.
All of society would benefit.
By GOB
June 6, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
Holy crap…get stuck in a meeting all afternoon, and see what I miss…Yikes.
So, Whiley, what percentage of the general male population falls into the catagories that you hate (i.e. perverts, rapists, women beaters, controllers, murderers, cheaters & liars & especially ones that ignore the plight of women.)??
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
Pointing…I appreciate your response to the question of what to do, but we must not be reading the same blog because all the men on here have stated repeatedly that the victim isn’t to blame (regardless of whether the clothing topic was also being addressed at the same time). The men on here are already thinking the ‘right’ way.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
Men’s Violence Against Women By: Christopher Kilmartin, Ph.D April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, and too often we see domestic violence and rape defined as “women’s issues.” Since men do the vast majority of the damage, I think it’s a men’s issue. I’ll begin with a story, not a very happy one, to set the tone. A little while back, The Washington Post ran a story about a Northern VA country club that held an event called the “Vodka challenge.” It was a men-only event, a standard country club golf tournament. What made it newsworthy was the mode of celebration in the men’s locker room. The day before the tournament, one of the club managers purchased an ice sculpture of a nude woman, sitting down with her legs spread. The vodka was served in the locker room from a fountain stream that came out from between her legs.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
“manliness or machismo is more highly valued, and the dominant structure is patriarchal. “
WHY? I just don’t get it. Why are women so devalued in this world? Why in the world are men so intiminated by women that for thousands of years they’ve done everything they could to supress & control us? (rape & verbal harrassment being 2 of many ways to keep women scared)
It’s obvious we’re not the ones needing the control. Could that be the root of it?
By xxx cartoon
June 6, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this
http://toonpornsex.to.pl toon porn sex
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Pointing, you continue to post these things about crimes against women. Do you think that we don’t know that crimes are committed against women? Do you think that crimes are only committed against women?
What purpose do these posts show? The don’t establish a pattern, or suggest that crime against women is pervasive…they just show that crimes are committed against women, just as they are against OTHER groups.
We’re all truly sorry about what happened to you, but this accomplishes absolutely nothing.
On a different note, if we’ve learned anything today, it’s that Zack is the only male on this blog you should be worried about. But then, we knew that.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
“So, Whiley, what percentage of the general male population falls into the catagories that you hate (i.e. perverts, rapists, women beaters, controllers, murderers, cheaters & liars & especially ones that ignore the plight of women.)??”
Too many. WAY too many.
I was wondering when the pro-rapist Zack would show up.
By Netbanker
June 6, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
James…as far as I’m currently aware harassment is defined as unwelcome attention. It’s an extremely subjective definition so one person may feel harassed while another does not.
I’m being sent to a training session by my company on this very topic next Wednesday.
By Mara
June 6, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
Archie, I wasn’t offended as it were. Disconcerted maybe. It seems that you and I have a real issue with communication. If I’m not mistaken, the last time we had a heated discussion, pretty much the same scenario played out. You made some slang comment. I couldn’t get anyone to translate and so misinterpreted what you meant. Sorry right back at ya! :^)
As for culture, you are probably right. I was raised in a fairly egalitarian family where the girls and the boys had to do the same chores, meet the same standards, and neither were given the “out” of gender “inability”. My folks stressed education, ethics, hard work, kindness and empathy over stuff like dress, religion, gender norms, or politics. Which brings me to the only question I have left…Archie, what exactly are my kind? Where do my kind hang out? Do I really have to go to a pool hall to find them? Why can’t I hang with “your kind”? Wouldn’t I learn more from studying the “other kind” than watching my own…”kind”? Is it unreasonable to feel a bit offended that you can’t see me as a person but only as some other “kind”? Why? Because I don’t think like you or agree with your opinions?
anyway end o’ day. later
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this
It’s obvious we’re not the ones needing the control. Could that be the root of it?
It’s obvious that you’re the one needing the meds.
By Renee
June 6, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
I fail to see how the Vodka Challenge story equates with sexual assault.
By Chilao
June 6, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this
The vodka was served in the locker room from a fountain stream that came out from between her legs.
thank goodness it was not lemonade.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
Netbanker I am not under 40 but I am black and some of the younger guys have a different view and than guys like myself. Obviously some of the women here are white and they experience rude comments from white guys. No Netbanker you are not a bigot as far as I can tell.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
“a change in attitude”
Yeah right. Remember the Marcus Dixon case? Big time football player convicted of rape, got ten years but because he was a FOOTBALL player and it would ruin his life, he is now free. He was easily 3 times her size. Some women freeze up when fearing for their life and are unable to say no. She was portrayed a slut and now he is free. Good thing I’m not her Daddy or I would be in jail.
By GOB
June 6, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
“So, Whiley, what percentage of the general male population falls into the catagories that you hate (i.e. perverts, rapists, women beaters, controllers, murderers, cheaters & liars & especially ones that ignore the plight of women.)??”
Too many. WAY too many.
Well, one person would be too many…What would put the ballpark percentage at??
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
“socialized ‘deafness’ of men toward women” = 72 John
John: “how can I stop Whiley from getting to the root of this problem? I’ve got it ! Accuse her of being a hysterical female, I’ll ask her if she’s on her period, then I’ll tell her she needs meds”. That’s it !”
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this
When some of the women members found out about this ice sculpture, they were outraged. Most of the men seemed puzzled by this reaction. After all, this was a sculpture, not a real woman, and it was in the men’s locker room, where none of the women would even see it. Quite predictably, there were a lot of statements about angry feminists who have no sense of humor, and the overly rigid atmosphere of political correctness. After all, any one with an open mind would see this as harmless. I think it’s good to have an open mind, but it’s not good to have a mind so open that your brain falls out.
What does this vodka challenge story have to do with violence against women? There was nothing in the story to suggest that any of these men had ever beaten their wives. But, although I’m sure they didn’t realize it, every one of them made it just a little more possible for any one of them to commit an act of violence against a woman.
In order for violence to occur, several things have to be present. First, there has to be a lack of identification with the victim. (A point just made by Mara to Archie) Second, there has to be a perception of the situation as one that calls for violence. Third, there has to be a decision to act violently, and fourth, there has to be a means of doing harm to the other person.
All-male social groups that are disrespectful towards women provide the first part of this formula: a willingness to view women as being different from and less valued than men. Symbolically, the ice sculpture provided an atmosphere that says women are here for men’s pleasure, and we will bond around our shared masculinity in this place where we don’t have to deal with women as human beings. Seeing them as lower status others allows us to justify mistreating them in many ways, including violence. There is an attitudinal undercurrent of women as enemies, in spite of the fact that most of these men were married to and raising children with the enemy.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
Renee’. Me thinks everyone here needs a shot. Make mine a double!
By Renee
June 6, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
ROFL Chilao…
I needed the laughs today…thanks for every one’s contribution!!
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this
John: “how can I stop Whiley from getting to the root of this problem? I’ve got it ! Accuse her of being a hysterical female, I’ll ask her if she’s on her period, then I’ll tell her she needs meds”. That’s it
Well, I never said, nor would I ever say “Are you on your period”, because that’s just…stupid.
However, the fact that you live in a fantasy world where every man is a potential agressor just waiting to rape and abuse you, and that you make bizzare statements like “Renee is a man” DOES make me believe that you are either clinically insane or deeply emotional disturbed.
I don’t ignore the plight of WOMEN, Whiley, you crazed loon, I ignore your irrational and utterly ludicrous ravings. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are female and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that you are Grade A Prime Choice Certifiably NUTS.
By GOB
June 6, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this
Yeah right. Remember the Marcus Dixon case? Big time football player convicted of rape, got ten years but because he was a FOOTBALL player and it would ruin his life, he is now free. He was easily 3 times her size. Some women freeze up when fearing for their life and are unable to say no. She was portrayed a slut and now he is free. Good thing I’m not her Daddy or I would be in jail.
Jack - If I remember correctly, he was convicted of statutory rape, but the law required he go to jail for 10 years. Members of the jury have said they wouldnt have convicted him if they knew it meant jail time. From the accounts I have read, there was no force or intimidation used. The age difference was the issue…Well, that and a black guy sleeping with a white girl in North GA.
By Archie
June 6, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
By your kind Mara I mean women. Check out how other women act in certain places. You are so different than say JBM,Renee, and other women on here under 40. I guess because you don’t talk the way I do you find it difficult to understand things that are not that complicated, my bad. I will try to be more formal even though it is a blog. You can hang out with us men but your husband might have a problem with it and no you don’t have to go to a pool hall that was just an example. I observed certain styles of dress and since the topic is about dress and rape I used those examples. In my pool hall example the women are young,black and white, in fact, the young lady whose boob fell out was white,which I only bring up to show that different people hang out together and different people engage in similar behaviors. I really liked JBM because she was honest about women’s behavior and her behavior. Every man on this blog knows he can’t rape anyone regardless as to how they dress. I really like 72john and Renee’s postings on this subject. They both deserve a crown.
By Jack
June 6, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this
GOB. And if she were your daughter?
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this
John attitudes like yours CONTRIBUTE to the plight of women. You ignore & attack. You are blind & deaf like the lot of them.
Men like you attack instead of doing something about it. If the ice sculpture turned up at a party you attended, exactly what would you do? My guess laugh it up with the rest of the group.
Every last one of those men should have to volunteer at a rape crisis center or women’s shelter. A lot of those men are probably raising boys. That is a sickening thought.
Thank you for your post Pointing
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
“Too many. WAY too many.
Well, one person would be too many…What would put the ballpark percentage at??”
Well, that would take some time to calculate. Add all the men currently in prison, then add the jail populations, add to that the fetus lovers, wife beaters that haven’t been caught, the perverts molesting their kids that haven’t been caught yet, ALL THE MEN that attended & condoned the party mentioned above, the men we are talking about today who openly harass women, men who regularly go to strip clubs, pay for prostitutes, the ones online getting caught trying to have sex with teenagers. It’s difficult to calculate all the men who sit on their fat arzzes in Govt. offices doing nothing, and the ones who allow rapists to leave prisons alive. The pukes who keep the porn business alive & well, particularly the disgusting guy who promotes the “girls gone wild” and anybody that purchases it. Of course he is only one example of many I’m sure.
Yes, it’s difficult to calculate, I’m sorry if I have no loving feelings at all toward these people.
I suppose my answer is the number is so overwhelming, it’s impossible to answer your question accurately. The only thing I can tell you is IT’S A VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE.
Which is WHY we are long past due of raising our boys differently.
By Chilao
June 6, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
I think we have learned today that it is not acceptable to find members of the sex we are attracted to, for them to be actually attractive, sexually. (Just married, under the covers, lights out…LOL).
‘cause anything else is VERBOTEN.
While malls are hardly my fave hangout, rarely ever in one, and the food court there even less so, I certainly don’t think I would be noticing anything in some less-than-legal crotch camel-toe that might be there. LOL
I just wondered if it was above the hood or below. Keyed perhaps?
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
GOB. And if she were your daughter?
Jack…they were in high school together. They were peers. She just happened to be a year or so younger, and within the legal definition of statutory rape.
Surely you aren’t such a neanderthal that you would murder a boy just because he was involved in a consenting sexual relationship with your daughter? I guess you would absolve your little girl of any responsibility and vent your anger at your failure as a parent on the boy, huh?
By Billy
June 6, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
Well, I never said, nor would I ever say “Are you on your period”, because that’s just…stupid.
Agreed. It’s been my experience that the irrationality comes in 3-4 days before the period starts.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
GOB. And if she were your daughter? How old was she?
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
John attitudes like yours CONTRIBUTE to the plight of women. You ignore & attack. You are blind & deaf like the lot of them.
You are so right, Whiley. I contribute to the plight of women. Because the vast majority of men are horrible monsters, according to you.
You are an idiot.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
(Agreed. It’s been my experience that the irrationality comes in 3-4 days before the period starts.)
Billy Willy you are so, so predictable! I bet my girlfriend you’d bring up this one before the day was over too. Thanks to you we’ve both had a good laugh at male predictability.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
Unfortunately, this vodka challenge was most likely not some isolated incident of insensitivity. In fact, country clubs have a history of the exclusion and disrespect of women, from men-only eating areas and tee times to the outright banning of women members. Many clubs also have a history of excluding Jews and people of color. The controversy over the exclusion of women from Augusta National is a case in point - Martha Burk has been called every bad name in the book just because she has pointed out the bigotry of this incredibly wealthy group of men and suggested that we all do something to ensure that they don’t become wealthier from the Master’s tournament.
Men’s violence is the single most serious health problem for women in the United States. It causes more harm than accidents, muggings, and cancer combined. For women aged 15-44, an estimated 50% of emergency room visits are the result of violence at the hands of their husbands, boyfriends, ex-husbands, or ex-boyfriends. Every year male partners or ex-partners murder more than 1000 women - that’s about 3 per day. It happens so often that people don’t even pay attention to it. When a stranger murders someone, the story is on the front page of the metro section. If it’s an intimate, it’s at the bottom of page 4. A stranger rape always makes the papers; an acquaintance rape never does unless the rapist is somebody famous. The two most frequent crimes against women are largely invisible to the media. We expect it so much that we don’t even notice it.
Men’s violence is the single most serious health problem for women in the United States. It causes more harm than accidents, muggings, and cancer combined. For women aged 15-44, an estimated 50% of emergency room visits are the result of violence at the hands of their husbands, boyfriends, ex-husbands, or ex-boyfriends. Every year male partners or ex-partners murder more than 1000 women - that’s about 3 per day. It happens so often that people don’t even pay attention to it. When a stranger murders someone, the story is on the front page of the metro section. If it’s an intimate, it’s at the bottom of page 4. A stranger rape always makes the papers; an acquaintance rape never does unless the rapist is somebody famous. The two most frequent crimes against women are largely invisible to the media. We expect it so much that we don’t even notice it.
By Chilao
June 6, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
Second ex sometimes would get all weird sometims, and not the best thing for me to say “Oh, that’s right, your period starts in five days”. LMAO (she’d get even weirder after that remark)
By The72John
June 6, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
Well, that would take some time to calculate. Add all the men currently in prison, then add the jail populations, add to that the fetus lovers, wife beaters that haven’t been caught, the perverts molesting their kids that haven’t been caught yet, ALL THE MEN that attended & condoned the party mentioned above, the men we are talking about today who openly harass women, men who regularly go to strip clubs, pay for prostitutes, the ones online getting caught trying to have sex with teenagers. It’s difficult to calculate all the men who sit on their fat arzzes in Govt. offices doing nothing, and the ones who allow rapists to leave prisons alive. The pukes who keep the porn business alive & well, particularly the disgusting guy who promotes the “girls gone wild” and anybody that purchases it. Of course he is only one example of many I’m sure
I can’t begin to describe how crazed and irrational this is…basically, anyone who exhibits sexual interest in a woman, period, is suspect and dangerous. Even people who haven’t done anything are PROBABLY doing something and just haven’t gotten caught yet. And people who fail to MURDER rapists are culpable as well.
Whiley…you are deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply crazed…you need serious psychological help.
By pointingatcreepymen
June 6, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this
And I thought until this happened to me that gay men were different! You are still men even if you’re gay. And just as predictible in your attitudes. I learned a good lesson.
By pointingatcreepymen&creepy women too
June 6, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
Renee, do you identify with other women at all in any way or do you hang with the guys licking azz all the time?
By Renee
June 6, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this
Jack - I’m with you on the double shot.
I’m still not seeing the whole vodka story comparison, but ok….
On the Marcus Dixon case, GOB, you hit the nail on the head!
John - you are not allowed to post anymore today!!! I can’t laugh anymore!! Your 4:23..well…I’m still laughing…toooo funny!!!
Archie - thanks, although the crown goes to John and I’ll take the tiara!!!
I’m outta here…safe evening to all, I’m on my way to the store or in the infamous words of Whiley - I’m on the way to be “almost raped”. Since I’m going to two stores, that’s two “almost rapings” for me.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this
“Because the vast majority of men are horrible monsters, according to you.”
So all those millions of men in prison or those released aren’t bad people after all, oops my mistake. All those sex offenders are really the victims because females like to wear tube tops. Men who beat their wives & girlfriends are just needing love. Men with sexual porn problems are just letting off steam. WELL, MY MISTAKE.
Don’t get mad at me because more men than not HAVE PROVED to be a danger to others.
By Whiley
June 6, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
Don’t tell me we’re back on that young girl who was raped by the football player.
Are we now going to blame children for being alone with the opposite sex now? It was HER FAULT for being alone with a football player? A CHILD should have known better???? (especially since there had already been complaints of him grabbing girls) OH wait, they did accuse her of being responsible for it. I forgot.
gesus WHAT A SEXIST WORLD THIS IS ! ! ! ! ! ! !
If a girl can’t even be alone with a boy(she should have known better?), then CLEARLY ALL BOYS cannot be trusted. ALL BOYS should be contained.
By Billy
June 6, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this
Pointing, after your supposed earlier prediction, I predicted to all of my friends (Larry, Joe, Bob, Sam, Tom, Sally, Emily, John, Leslie, Sarah, Tony, Heather, Mary, Moncica Kaufman and the Channel 2 Action News Team, Mike, Jan, Harold, Jim, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, Scooby-Doo, Ladysmith Black Mambazo, and both houses of Congrees) that you would come in later saying you predicted something I said. We all came to the agreement that you must have been so traumatized by your previous experience that your new defensive mechanism is to render men unable to rape by being such a c0ck-shriveling frostycunt.
New topic: Spousal abuse — How much is too much? I know, if married to “pointing”, this cannot be answered.
By free sex dvd
June 6, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this
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By The72John
June 7, 2006 07:50 AM | Link to this
So all those millions of men in prison or those released aren’t bad people after all, oops my mistake. All those sex offenders are really the victims because females like to wear tube tops. Men who beat their wives & girlfriends are just needing love. Men with sexual porn problems are just letting off steam. WELL, MY MISTAKE.
What’s sad about this is that you honestly believe that the relatively small percentage of men who actually fit this description are representative of all men. Or, that you’ve confused, willfully or otherwise, what we’ve said on the blog so far this week to believe that we’ve implied any of this nonsense.
No one has said that sex offenders are victims. No one has said that men who beat their wives just “need love”. As for sexual porn “problems”, I assume that to mean that in your estimation anyone who views sexually explicit material has “a problem”.
The tragic thing, Whiley, is that you are so screwed up inside that the problems of a few have been magnified in your mind. Because a few men are abusers, all men are. Because some men are criminals, all men are.
Don’t get mad at me because more men than not HAVE PROVED to be a danger to others
I’m really more sad than mad. More men than not have proved to be a danger to others? Really? Then…more than 50 percent of the male population has committed crimes or been violent or abusive? You…honestly, truly believe this? Then you are more deeply disturbed than I dared imagine. How terrifying it must be for you to face each day, cowering with fear that every man you encounter is a ticking time-bomb just waiting to explode, heaping abuse on women with impunity.
Are we now going to blame children for being alone with the opposite sex now? It was HER FAULT for being alone with a football player? A CHILD should have known better???? (especially since there had already been complaints of him grabbing girls) OH wait, they did accuse her of being responsible for it. I forgot.
Because in Whiley-world, no teenage girl could possibly want to have sex, is that right? In Whiley-world, all girls are innocent victims and all men are violent abusers, is that what you’re getting at? It’s not possible that a teenage girl CHOSE to have sex with her boyfriend?
I’m just curious, Whiley…in what circumstances is sex OK with you? None? Is any woman who chooses to embrace sexuality (there are a lot of women who LOVE sex, Whiley) a victim of men? How sad that your fear and terror have emotionally castrated you.
If a girl can’t even be alone with a boy(she should have known better?), then CLEARLY ALL BOYS cannot be trusted. ALL BOYS should be contained.
All boys should be…contained? All boys cannot be trusted? Do you think this sounds like the statement of a sane human being, Whiley? Do you think that this makes the least bit of sense? Is there anything rational about this, this…ranting, this raving of a deeply damaged individual? And…she should have known better? Never occurred to you that the girl just wanted to have sex, did it…no…because real women aren’t sexual creatures, are they, Whiley? Sex is a MASCULINE drive completely alien to women who are just the slaves of women, isn’t that right?
I would laugh, if you weren’t so pitiable.
By Whiley
June 7, 2006 08:36 AM | Link to this
“Because a few men are abusers, all men are. Because some men are criminals, all men are. “
SO MANY ARE perverts, rapists, child molesters, thieves, murderers. Untill the day comes they wear signs on themselves identifying them as such, I will treat most every man alive as a potential threat. Don’t you dare tell me there aren’t millions of men going through revolving doors of prisons & jails. MILLIONS. If I didn’t & something happened to me, it would be my fault wouldn’t it? “she should have known better”.
So I really don’t give a SHW@# what stupid ignorant sexist men say about my “attitude.
And I won’t appologize for being protective of myself.
“All boys should be…contained? All boys cannot be trusted?”
Apparently. Because if sex happens without the consent of the young girl, she is absolutely ALWAYS BLAMED ! ALWAYS ! Even if she only wanted to kiss the boy.
By Brian Curtis
June 7, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this
At this point, I’m glad Whiley is just a random nut raving on a blog. Because if she had any ACTUAL influence in the real world, we’d be living in a police state, with everyone brainwashed to her specifications.
And any women who disagreed with her would be labeled “gender criminals” and forcibly sex-changed. Yeesh.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this
John, excellent, excellent post as usual. Your holding on to your crown.
pointingatcreepymen - Here’s your comment.
Renee, do you identify with other women at all in any way or do you hang with the guys licking azz all the time?
My response to this juvenile comment follows: Not only do I identify with women but I am a woman, I am woman, phenomenal woman, whatever. But my question to you is why are you not able to be respectful on this blog. I, for one, have expressed opinions on here which differs from yours, and do not deserve to be disrespected. Nothing I said to you included anything close deserving this comment. Which would lead me to believe that you are too immature to be able to debate without throwing in some curse words and juvenile questions. Lovely, I must say. Ummmm…is it so hard to believe that I, like many others on here are able to make up our own minds about situations, have our own opinions, and sharing them does not constitute….what was your term again?….licking someone’s azz (in this case).
I’m glad you are passionate about your issues, however over the top I may think they are. Does this constitute you “licking a woman’s azz”.
Furthermore, to Whiley, you perpetuate the “playing the victim” role that we discussed earlier this week. If one was to listen to you, women are these frail creatures, that are subject to rapings and beatings every time they leave the house. Every woman is a victim of a man, or that’s the theory (belief) you have given.
I’m sorry to tell you but I for one, and I can name many more women as well, am no victim. If a man wants to rape me, beat me, kill me, I’m going down fighting, so he better be ready.
Here’s a tip, which you should know, living in the city (suburbs, whatever). Never show fear. If you leaver your house in this state every day, you are the exact person a predator is looking for. He (she) is looking for someone they can overpower quickly, they don’t want a fight, they want someone they can instill the fear of God into easily.
While, I know there is a chance that I may be raped or murdered when I leave my house, there is also a chance I could get into a fatal car accident, a plane could crash into my house/job/car, a tree could fall on me, a bolt of lightning…well you get the point. I don’t let these things overpower me, and take over my life. What a fearful life I would live if I walked around looking over my shoulder. What a fearful life you must live.
By Monica
June 7, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this
Hi to all! What an interesting topic this week. I haven’t read all of the comments, but there has been interesting discussion going on! There was a similar “Marcus Dixon” case in Douglas County a couple of years ago. The girl told the police that she willingly participated, but because she was 15, he is in jail for ten years. He was dumb enough to videotape the incident, but that doesn’t warrant ten years, at least in my book.
Since I teach high school, I might have a slightly different viewpoint regarding statutory rape (and I don’t have daughters, which also might make a difference). I see how fourteen and fifteen year old girls act. I read the notes that they write to boys. I overhear their conversations about sex. They know perfectly well what they are doing.
No one deserves to be raped. No one should have to say no more than once. That said, I tell my female students, “Don’t advertise goods that aren’t for sale.” If you don’t want a guy to think that you’re a slut, then don’t dress like one. I AM NOT APPLYING THIS TO ALL WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED; just teenage/college girls who expose most of their bodies when they go on a date and then can’t understand why a guy would think that she wants to have sex with him.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this
Oh Billy, I forgot to tell you, I was cracking up at your 5:14 post.
Whiley, I just read your post, and I’m just shaking my head.
By GOB
June 7, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this
Whiley - If the percentage of men that are so horrible is as high as you claim, that would mean that 9-10 of the 15 or so regular male contributors of this blog would fall into those catagories you listed. Do you really believe that is the case?
By The72John
June 7, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this
At this point, I’m glad Whiley is just a random nut raving on a blog. Because if she had any ACTUAL influence in the real world, we’d be living in a police state, with everyone brainwashed to her specifications
I’m just concerned that she might have a gun. People as consumed by fear as she obviously is can do awful things out of that fear. Imagine if she does carry a pistol - what is to stop her from murdering some innocent man who made the mistake of simply wandering too close to her while she was in the grip of her hysteria.
By GOB
June 7, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this
Whiley - You do realize that you are just as bad (and likely worse) than any of the religious fanatics on this blog, right? The issue is different, but your postings are essentially the same.
By Jack
June 7, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this
Did I miss the part where the victim in the Marcus Dixon case said it was concentual? If so, I retract my post. If not my post stands. I don’t give a damn what the jury thought, if she was forced, he should get 10 years. She will be affected by it for more than 10 years.
By Jack
June 7, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this
I am somewhat speling chalenged todaa..Sorry
By Brian Curtis
June 7, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
GOB: I was just thinking that same thing! Whiley really sounds like another religious fanatic—except her hatred is directed toward men, not gays or abortion providers.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this
Monica, I think that is the case JBM used to talk about. I don’t think that situation warrants 10 years either. I know what teenage girls talk about and write about as well. I have one, thankfully she’s not doing any of those things, but she has friends. And, I don’t put anything past her, I just try to stay a step ahead of her. But, I too was a teenage girl, so I do know first hand on two levels.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this
Jack - originally the girl said she was raped, two days after the incident. However, she admitted to several people, including adults, that the sex was consensual, and she said she was raped, because her father was a racist, and would kill her/him for having sex with a black boy. He was convicted for 10 years for having consensual sex with an underage girl, the jury had no idea that 10 years was the minimum sentence or they wouldn’t have found him guilty. His case was really unfortunate and I for one am glad he was able to get released.
I know you said in your post that you don’t give a “damn what the jury thought”. So are you saying that if he was charged with rape, and the jury found him innocent, you would still look at him as guilty? Juries are not always right, but they are not always wrong either.
By Jack
June 7, 2006 09:29 AM | Link to this
The thing is, if a girl/woman has sex with a 100 guys and tells the 101st guy no and he forces himself on her, it is still rape and castration is in order.
By Archie
June 7, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
I think the guys on this blog responded logically to the topic question, but guys are tired of male-bashing and the reluctance of people to criticize women. Most men know that they can use charm to get sex and most women want that charm that the guy is willing to give. I notice that many women here standup for men and that is a good thing. I don’t know how to stop some men from raping women or men but then I don’t how to stop some women from doing things that aren’t logical such as exposing yourself on a date but then saying they have no sexual intentions. I made that statement based on Monica’s post so hopefully it will be easy enough for everybody to understand.
By Whiley
June 7, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Gesus some of you people are so stupid.
This is a blog, a conversation specifically about a certain topic. I certainly don’t live my life in constant fear & anger. However I AM weary of all men due to the extrememly high number of serious offenders running around free. As a female I’ve grown up KNOWING good & well my chances of becoming a victim so there are certain guildlines I must live by in order to protect myself.
I am very picky who I choose to associate with or come in contact with. I refuse to end up just another rape victim having her character or sexual past judged, or yet another woman killed by a spouse or boyfriend. I will not allow anybody to enter my house unless I invite them & I will not allow the opportunity for some nut to attack me in a parking lot.
Why is this a bad thing? Why is protecting myself crazy? Why do I even need to explain this? I am angry I have to treat men like this, but as I stated before untill they start hanging warning signs on themselves, I will do what I need to do. No one will EVER accuse me of “well, she should have known better”.
A lot of women feel the way I do, but won’t express out loud how angry they feel about it. I can see why, you’ll get attacked for it.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this
Jack, Dixon was accquited (in about 20 minutes of deliberation) of all charges of rape. He was convicted on aggravated child molestation, a charge based only on the fact that he was older than she and that the two engaged in sex. Yes, it was consensual. He was sentenced to 10 years because of a slight age-gap between two high school teenagers. That conviction was overturned by the GA Supreme Court.
The funny thing is that when I was in high school, I had two friends - a male freshman and a female senior who started dating and were constantly having sex. Would anyone have accused that 18 year old woman of being a predator? Not a chance… Or the 15 year old boy of being a victim? HAH!
It’s a tremendous double-standard.
By GOB
June 7, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this
I’m just concerned that she might have a gun. People as consumed by fear as she obviously is can do awful things out of that fear. Imagine if she does carry a pistol - what is to stop her from murdering some innocent man who made the mistake of simply wandering too close to her while she was in the grip of her hysteria.
And throw in the fact that she has also claimed she would have no problem macing someone who made a comment she didnt like, I think that thee is a reason to be concerned. That is an incredibly dangerous mindset.
By Mara
June 7, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this
Okay, I guess I’ll excuse myself from commenting anymore on this topic, because really…I don’t get it. I read Monicas post from 8:53 and just shook my head. Are the guys (and, evidently, Monica) out there really so shallow as to lable as “slut” any woman who wears sexy clothes? Really?
I guess I lose the thread when, almost inevitably, after the required “no one deserves to be raped…” there seems to always come the “but…” or “that being said…” that ends up leading to something resembling “don’t be surprised if guys think you’re a slut.” Evidently “slut” means you want to have indiscriminate sex with anyone, anywhere, anytime. Is raping a looking-for-some-fun slut so much less depraved than raping a saving-it-for-marriage virgin? Then why the “buts…” and “even thoughs…”?
Anyway, agree or disagree, interesting posts for the last few days. I, however, have a ton of work on my desk. I’ll try to joke-post tomorrow….ta-ta y’all
By The72John
June 7, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this
The thing is, if a girl/woman has sex with a 100 guys and tells the 101st guy no and he forces himself on her, it is still rape and castration is in order
What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?
By Brian Curtis
June 7, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this
I’ll try ONCE more to state things as clearly and logically as possible. If Whiley’s World can’t process that, then I just can’t help her.
Sexual interest, attraction, and attention are inevitable whenever humans interact. Clothing can affect that level of interest, and most rational adults recognize this and dress appropriately (depending on THEIR level of interest).
Harassment, defined as “continued, unwelcome attention,” is rude. Rudeness is frowned on, but is not—repeat, NOT—worse than rape and terrorism combined. Ongoing harassment is a real pain, and may even reach a level that requires legal intervention. I don’t support it, and I haven’t seen anyone here—male or female—supporting it either. Only in Whiley’s mind does such a claim exist.
I don’t consider a woman dressed in a sexy or alluring fashion a ‘slut,’ and I think it’s rude and hypocritical for any man to do so. I do consider her attractive, and in some cases I might approach her and talk to her. If she’s not interested, she can say so. No crime has occurred here, okay?
It’s also only in Whiley’s mind that failure to match her level of outrage and anger equates to “condoning rape and admitting that all men are savage animals who should be treated as such.” The only one making such wild and irresponsible claims is you, Whiley.
Are we done here? Has the topic been exhausted yet?
By Jack
June 7, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
You said yesterday that it was with consent. Did you not?
By Jack
June 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
We can always talk about our great president wasting valuable time and resources on the gay marriage issue.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this
Well put, Brian. If I may add:
It’s not my opinion of what clothes say about a person that matters. I may not think that a scantily-clad woman (or man) is a slut (but let’s be honest, in a gay bar a guy running around in Daisy Dukes and no shirt is probably not a paragon of virtue) but as a rational adult I recognize that there ARE going to be people who judge me by my clothes. Whether it be about my sexual habits, my socio-economic status, whatever…
I make the choice to let comments bother me or not.
By Whiley
June 7, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this
“Are we done here? Has the topic been exhausted yet?”
Of course, because if you stop talking about it, ignore it, deny it, the problem will just go away.
By Jack
June 7, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this
John. Your friend was a very lucky boy.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
Of course, because if you stop talking about it, ignore it, deny it, the problem will just go away
If we stop talking about you and ignore you, will YOU go away?
By The72John
June 7, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this
John. Your friend was a very lucky boy.
Exactly my point, Jack. He was a very lucky boy, but a girl of the same age in the same kind of relationship is considered a victim.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
I don’t consider a woman dressed in a sexy or alluring fashion a ‘slut,’ and I think it’s rude and hypocritical for any man to do so.
I honestly have to say that sometimes I might think this. It all depends on the situation and setting. I could see a woman in a particular getup at the Masquerade and think she’d hot. Were I to see her at church or in a board meeting or working at a daycare center in the same getup, I might think she’s dressing like a slut. We all have certain clothes we wear for certain occasions. When I see anyone who has obviously gone to extra trouble to dress differently from the others in a place, I believe it is so they can stand out from them. If said attire is very revealing, I am unable to process it in any way other than: “This person wants to garner attention from others and is choosing to do it through skimpy clothing.”
Granted, some women may not know that men would consider their clothing to be sexual, but many also know that what they are wearing is overtly sexual. Wearing short gym shorts? Slightly skimpy, but not real;y revealing. Short gym shorts on a young teen? I wouldn’t want my daughter wearing that as regular attire. Now toss in a handprint on each butt cheek? That’s being overtly sexual. Now roll down the waistband so you can pull the shorts a little higher? That’s dressing like a slut.
I know I’m going to get reamed for this, but that attire is just inappropriate for public places. And NO, it doesn’t give anyone the right to rape or otherwise assault the girl. But it IS going to attract attention, and while I don’t blame a rape victim for the assault, I also don’t blame a guy who hits on a girl who is wearing something like that.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
People are most certainly judged by their clothes. First appearances always make lasting impressions. This is why you don’t where miniskirts or revealing blouses to interviews.
Just because you wear sexy clothing does not make you a slut, but you can certainly be perceived as a slut. Just like a man with horn-rimmed glasses and his button down or polo shirt is buttoned to the top button, and high water pants might be perceived as a nerd. Humans are visual. We are not like other animals who may use smell to distinguish, we use purely sight (although the smell may factor in lol).
Like my mother used to say, perception is everything.
By RW
June 7, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
Do people even read Diane’s and Shaunti’s commentaries before posting responses? To all these comments saying Shaunti is excusing rape, can you not read? I quote, “To be clear: women are never “responsible” for being raped. Nothing excuses the crime of sexual assault.”
That said, dressing like a hoochie mama leads people to believe you are one. Just as men are responsible for their actions, women are responsible for theirs. If you dress like you’re for sale, you contribute to the objectification of women, which in turn leads to a degraded status for women. As Diane said, a degraded view of women correlated with higher rape incidence in the Norwegian study.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this
Billy, that was the point I was trying to make, only you did it much better!
By Jack
June 7, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this
“but that attire is just inappropriate for public places. And NO, it doesn’t give anyone the right to rape or otherwise assault the girl. But it IS going to attract attention, and while I don’t blame a rape victim for the assault, I also don’t blame a guy who hits on a girl who is wearing something like that.”
Ditto that.
By Whiley
June 7, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
Of course, because if you stop talking about it, ignore it, deny it, the problem will just go away”
Well, it will go away for “people” it doesn’t really affect. The rest of us just have to deal with it right? And don’t get too upset about it, after all, if it doesn’t happen to me why should I care?
A woman was assaulted in a park at Kennesaw Mountain National Battlefield Park. She was grabbed from behind by a man who held a knife to her throat. Man still at large.
Police arrested a Marietta piano teacher for molesting one of his young students.
A registered sex offender suspected of strangling a Clemson University student with her bikini top waived extradition Wednesday and will head to South Carolina to face charges.He was arrested on warrants for murder, rape and kidnapping in the death of Tiffany Marie Souers.
Man slams ax into 9 year olds face. Emergency workers were afraid to remove the ax during the helicopter flight to Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta at Scottish Rite hospital, where Jordin died.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
Whiley, you haven’t said word one about the recent rash of female teachers sleeping with their male students…Who’s the victim in those cases, the twenty- or thirty-something teachers or the teen boys?
Never mind. You already answered this: ALL BOYS cannot be trusted. ALL BOYS should be contained.
By Brian Curtis
June 7, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
Well, Whiley, you’ve convinced me: Sexual assault is BAD.
I was all in favor of it, right up until this very moment, but your news posts have changed my mind. Yessir, I saw nothing wrong with sexually assaulting every woman in sight—and I said so, repeatedly, right here on this very forum.
But now you’ve convinced me. “Rape is bad, and I shouldn’t do it.” Thank you for helping all us poor benighted males see the light! We never would’ve come to that conclusion if not for your willingness to share your wisdom.
Meanwhile, back in reality….
By pointingatcreepymen&creepy women too
June 7, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
(We all came to the agreement that you must have been so traumatized by your previous experience that your new defensive mechanism is to render men unable to rape by being such a c0ck-shriveling frostycunt.)
That is Billy at his best! I certainly hope so, you crude little f—k! Don’t blame me for your shriveled little co— either!
By The72John
June 7, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
The existence of crime is not proof that crime is pervasive and all-encompassing. Anyone could go through the daily papers and cite examples of both men and women committing violent crimes.
What makes you a psychotic loon, Whiley, is that you are unable to distinguish between the reality, that crime exists, and your delusional fantasy, to wit: that crime is not only a strictly male phenomenon, but that most men are prone to crimes, that only by restraining men can crime be solved, that only you see the true nature of crime, that crime is everywhere and that you are at constant and real, real danger of being a victim of it.
It is not that others are not concerned about being safe, Whiley, it is that you are consumed by your certainty that threats to your life and limb are contained in the frames of every non-emasculated man you encounter.
By pointingatcreepymen&creepy women too
June 7, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this
(Whiley, you haven’t said word one about the recent rash of female teachers sleeping with their male students…Who’s the victim in those cases, the twenty- or thirty-something teachers or the teen boys?)
Maybe because it’s so rare! Certainly not because it gets blown way the hell out of proportion in the news - because it’s so RARE compared to the number of male teachers sleeping with their female students!
By The72John
June 7, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this
That is Billy at his best! I certainly hope so, you crude little f—k! Don’t blame me for your shriveled little co— either
While irrational rage at men after experiencing a rape is understandable, it certainly isn’t productive or healthy. We’re all sympathetic to you, but here’s the kicker: None of the men on this blog raped you, would condone your rape, or would wish any further harm to come to you. However, since your first appearance on this blog you have been abusive, insulting, condescending, angry, spiteful, snide and mean.
Are you the least bit astonished that someone has finally lost his patience with you?
By kimberly
June 7, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
Leave her alone, dammit. All of you… having this discussion AS IF you actually care what someone else’s trauma is.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this
I see I struck a nerve, pointing. Good.
No one here wants to rape anyone. No one here wants to sexually assault anyone. The fact that you and Whiley are getting your panties in a bunch over the notion that clothing affect perceptions is so unbelievable that I have a hard time making sense of your points, assuming there are any.
Here’s an idea — get yourself a panic room and stock it with a hundred years’ worth of food and water. Make a bomb shelter right there in the middle of your house. Make sure it has good plumbing; if this board is any evidence you will create a solid half ton of bull$hit per day. I suppose it’s OK if you have some fresh air in there, too. Hole youself up in there and never come out. That way you’ll not only be safe from rape, but also from other sexual assaults as well, like sodomy, catcalls, whistling, pickup lines, compliments from men, men asking for directions, and the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day parade.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
What are the odds that pointing will post soon saying that she predicted I would say something that I said in my last post? 2:1? And she’ll say she told her friends I’d say it, too. I doubt she could present us with one of these supposed friends. Not because she doesn’t have any, but because they wouldn’t admit to being friends with such an obviously unstable, irrational, imbalanced psycho.
I repeat my thought from yesterday: Seek therapy.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
Maybe because it’s so rare! Certainly not because it gets blown way the hell out of proportion in the news - because it’s so RARE compared to the number of male teachers sleeping with their female students!
I see, so they get a pass because they are female and their victims are just dirty little males that deserve a taste of their own medicine, is that about it?
Come clean- you’re really Whiley’s OTHER personality, aren’t you…funny, there isn’t much difference between the two.
Jeeze, you can’t even suffer from Multiple Personality Disorder right.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
Leave her alone, dammit. All of you… having this discussion AS IF you actually care what someone else’s trauma is
Et tu, Kimberly? Are you going to start on the man-bashing now, too?
By candide
June 7, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
How many women in burkas are raped? And is that relevant?
By Billy
June 7, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Leave her alone, dammit. All of you… having this discussion AS IF you actually care what someone else’s trauma is.
No. In fact, at this point I don’t care what her trauma is. Experiencing a rape is not something I want to ever do. And I’m truly sorry if she had the misfortune of doing it. But it does not give her free reign to $hit all over everyone here who has a grasp on reality. I’m not going to just sit here and take her BS just because she was raped. If you look back, she’s the one who started in with the vitriol, some of which has been far more violating than a “Hey, nice boobs” that you might hear on the street.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this
Hey, just for Whiley and Pointing (assuming they aren’t one and the same), I propose we start joke Friday today. I’ll go first:
Why do women have boobs? So you’ve got something to look at while they’re talking to you.
Why do women have small feet? So they can get closer to the kitchen sink.
What’s the difference between a woman with PMS and a terrorist? You can negotiate with a terrorist.
Why is it called PMS? Because ‘Mad Cow Disease’ was already taken.
It’s a beautiful warm spring day and a man and his wife are at the zoo. She’s wearing a cute, loose-fitting, pink spring dress, sleeveless with straps. As they walk through the ape exhibit and pass in front of a very large gorilla, the gorilla goes ape. He jumps up on the bars, holding on with one hand (and 2 feet), grunting and pounding his chest with the free hand. He is obviously excited at the pretty lady in the wavy dress. The husband, noticing the excitement, suggests that his wife tease the poor fellow. The husband suggests she pucker her lips, wiggle her bottom, and play along. She does and Mr. Gorilla gets even more excited, making noises that would wake the dead. Then the husband suggests that she let one of her straps fall, she does, and Mr. Gorilla is just about to tear the bars down. Now try lifting your dress up your thighs…this drives the gorilla absolutely crazy. Then, quickly the husband grabs his wife by the hair, rips open the door to the cage, slings her in with the gorilla and says, “Now, tell HIM you have a headache.”
By pointingatcreepymen&creepy women too
June 7, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
72 to Whiley: (you are unable to distinguish between the reality, that crime exists, and your delusional fantasy, to wit: that crime is not only a strictly male phenomenon, but that most men are prone to crimes.” The statistics posted yesterday seem to support Whiley’s “crazy” ideas. A far, far higher percentage of all crime is done by men. Girls have to learn early in life that rapists look just like every other guy, act like every other guy, and you never know when some guy will come at you out of the blue. Not ALL men, but when 30% of college males say they would rape if they could get away with it and 50% of high school boys say rape is justifiable if the girl is drunk or dressed seductively … come on!
By kimberly
June 7, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this
Not interested in bashing anyone, thanks. Hence my absence from this discussion. BAD TOPIC, IMO. Only serves to open wounds of all kinds. Nothing meaningful will be exchanged, shared, understood, or solved.
Ciao! I’m going elsewhere to rage against the administration’s latest attempt to divert attention from their own collosal failings (while pandering to the fundie vote) by again asserting their right to decide whom should have the right to marry. Arrogant f—-ers.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
when 30% of college males say they would rape if they could get away with it and 50% of high school boys say rape is justifiable if the girl is drunk or dressed seductively
Pointing, do we have the actual wording of the questions in the surveys? I somehow doubt the question was, “Is it justifiable to rape a girl who is drunk or dressed seductively?” While rape is a heinous crime, there are degrees to everything. If a girl is drunk, I’m talking plastered, to the point where she can hardly stand up, but she’s conscious and doesn’t fight the guy off or even say no, is it rape? What if the guy is also drunk?
Again, I’m not excusing rape or the idea that rape is ever justifiable, but I’m not buying that half of all guys think that. Something was flawed with that study — the questions, the sample of subject, something.
By The72John
June 7, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
The statistics posted yesterday seem to support Whiley’s “crazy” ideas. A far, far higher percentage of all crime is done by men
You don’t know the first thing about statistics, do you? If you did, you would understand that you can’t project the characteristics of a sub-set of a population onto the population as a whole.
If there are 300 million people living in the US, and there are 10 million criminals, 75% of which happen to be men, that means that .025% of the male population is a criminal. Whiley’s (and apparently your) interpretation of these statistics is to say that because 75% of criminals are men, that 75% of men are potential criminals.
It’s just bad math.
And for the record, I don’t buy for a minute the validity of any study that suggests that 50% of the high school boys in this country believe that rape is justified if a girl is drunk. I would question the methodology of THAT survey without a moment’s hesitation.
By GOB
June 7, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
And for the record, I don’t buy for a minute the validity of any study that suggests that 50% of the high school boys in this country believe that rape is justified if a girl is drunk. I would question the methodology of THAT survey without a moment’s hesitation.
I agree. After reading what Whiley and Pointing have to say, I cant believe that number is so low. I mean shouldnt it be closer 98%???
By Renee
June 7, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
If a girl is drunk, I’m talking plastered, to the point where she can hardly stand up, but she’s conscious and doesn’t fight the guy off or even say no, is it rape? What if the guy is also drunk?
In my opinion, rape would be anything when both parties have not consented. If she is plastered, and can’t say no, that does not equate yes.
By pointingatcreepymen&creepy women too
June 7, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this
72, (I see, so they get a pass because they are female and their victims are just dirty little males that deserve a taste of their own medicine, is that about it?) Did I say that? NO! Who’s losing it here? Who’s putting words in other peoples mouths? No they don’t get a pass, but Jack just said they’re lucky guys, didn’t he? It’s not so much women who see that whole thing different as it is men. What I said is, no matter how blown out of proportion it gets on the rare ocassion when a woman does it, men are far, far more likely to sleep with their female students. Based on facts, black and white statistics, men are far more likely to rape women, beat up on women, and commit every other kind of crime. You know that’s the truth. Of course you don’t get the meaning in the golf club article Renee. The meaning is rape is not an isolated occurence unconnected to the cultural stereotypes about women. Please hear this, if nothing else, ever. Attitudes toward females as being different, hysterical, unreliable, slutty, provocative, sex objects (illustrated perfectly by Billy’s crude jokes!), are all part of the desentitization of all of us to females - and help to bring about an atmoshere for the ultimate degradation of females - rape and violence. But you refuse to see that because you want to continue to think rape and violence against women has nothing to do with you - there’s nothing you can do about it. Probably Billy would never rape anyone or beat his wife. He just degrades women in general with his jokes and his crude references to female body parts! he just says things like “maybe someone should rape her and then aske her if words on the street feel like rape” Like Mara’s tried to point out, he’s full of the “BUTS” - BUT IF she dresses like he thinks a “ho” dresses, what can she expect? BUT, if she acts like he thinks a ho acts, well, what can she expect….blablabla. Whiley’s right about one thing, if Billy told the same kind of jokes about blacks or other ethnic groups, and voiced the same degrading stereotypes, it would be war against him on here. But, he can still get a big guffaw with degrading jokes about women. Most men, and even some women, still think it’s real funny! It’s not funny. It’s crude and degrading to all women and he’s the reason why I was so mad when I started reading this website and why I reacted to him and then to tohers who just don’t see the obvious. Kimberly, thank you. I will always remember you cared.
By Brian Curtis
June 7, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
And what if the guy is plastered as well? I’m willing to bet that in Whiley’s World, men are accountable for their behavior when they’re drunk, but women are not. (Since they’re helpless victims, after all.)
By Jack
June 7, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Hi Sweet Thing. Will post later when the vitrol stops.
By Netbanker
June 7, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Like my mother used to say, perception is everything Renee…you’ve got a wise momma! I think this is a point that many seem to be missing about previous statements regarding what someone is wearing. While one’s clothing doesn’t mean that one IS what the clothing might or could say about the wearer one can not control the perception of another person. This is the reason why two people can see a 3rd person and reach two different conclusions about them based on what that person is wearing.
Why do women have boobs? So you’ve got something to look at while they’re talking to you. Billy LOL!..you brought back a great memory for me of high school. My friend Page was a conservative looking Preppy young lady who happened to have somewhat large breasts. No one would EVER consider her easy or slut based on her conservative clothing. Someone set her up on a date with a secret admirer and when she was telling me about the date afterward she told me that the guy kept talking to her boobs. She said he was such an idiot and a true geek that she figured he just assumed that women’s ears were for decoration and that their hearing was in their boobs. It became a running joke between us that whenever she missed something in a conversation she’d say “What!? I didn’t hear you” or “Could you speak up? I can’t hear you through this heavy sweater” while sticking out her chest in your direction. Then we’d lean down and shout at her boobs.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
In my opinion, rape would be anything when both parties have not consented. If she is plastered, and can’t say no, that does not equate yes.
I agree, but what if the guy is too plastered to realize what is going on?
By FatMoose
June 7, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
I know this info is of little interest to most on here, but…
I just turned in my keys and etc and am a free man again! Between my 1 month severence pay, sale of the house, unemployment and my real estate having a contact for me that in Costa Rica, I am going to try and think outside the box and go to the east coast of CR to get a job at a resort.
If it pans out, man would that be a welcome change! If not, I can easily get a job in another alright town with an alright job and a sh!thole relationship in the last 3months of unemployment;)
Those so inclined are welcome to pray for me, do a jig, or light an incence if that is your fancy;)
Doubt I will be visiting the AJC no matter what the outcome, so: It has been fun sometimes, frustrating most of it, and a validation that I am far from the most insane person on here. Thanks whiley, bc of you I have a good idea of what character-rock-bottom is and I am far from it given your examples. I also see you devoloped two more screwed personalities to compliment your exiting one, nice progress! Just show things can get even more f&cked;)
Keep em on their toes Net B.
See ya.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
I would venture to say that there are a lot more women who have committed these horrendous crimes than any of us know. How many men and young boys are ashamed to come forward and admit that they are a victim because of society’s perception. It is that perception that women don’t do that, and how could a man allow it etc… In turn you get a young boy who internalizes this, can’t talk to anyone and could turn out to be a very unproductive member of society.
If you don’t want people making jokes about women, then I hope you aren’t making “man” jokes. But in all reality, you can’t stop anyone from making these jokes, anymore than I can stop someone from making black jokes, lesbian jokes or anything else.
I’ve been to bachelorette parties where the cake is shaped like a p***, naked men are walking and dancing around, the women are slapping their azzes and saying quite explicit things to them. And one of my friends host parties all the time selling adult toys and lingerie, you should hear what women say at those things (I’ve only been to one ;) lol).
Now to the golf club, vodka party thing, no women were there, I don’t personally see a big deal. How many times do white people say jokes about black people and vice versa, when they are alone. Generally, they don’t do it in front of the person, because it’s considered in bad taste. People make jokes about all ethnic, sexes, sexual orientation etc. I laugh at any joke if it’s funny because I have a sense of humor!!! I don’t take everything so seriously. The only thing I won’t do is laugh at someone’s expense (in their face).
As far as jokes against women, yes they occur. Just as women have many jokes about men, stereotypes about apparatus, etc…. Men may be a lot more vocal and maybe distasteful sometime, but women do it too. And I know a lot of raunchy women, who tell the jokes, will flash etc.. And them being raunchy is my opinion, they think they are quite the cats meow.
By Renee
June 7, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
ummm….that is not the order that I typed those paragraphs in. Unless I’m really high today.
By Jack
June 7, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this
GOOD LUCK MOOSE!!!!
By US
June 7, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Do you realize that 3 out of every 4 women makes up 75% of the female population?
By Archie
June 7, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
“And what if the guy is plastered as well? I’m willing to bet that in Whiley’s World, men are accountable for their behavior when they’re drunk, but women are not. (Since they’re helpless victims, after all”
Brian, you beat me to it. Also some women wear low cut blouses so that their tatoo’s can be seen. None of the women here at work are wearing low cut blouses. One lady did have her shirt unbuttoned to get some air up there I assummed. I made no comment but my eyes probably wondered. Oh well,I guess I am not perfect…
By Billy
June 7, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
Thank you, Renee. It’s nice to have a woman who will back up the rapists-in-waiting here…
Being the male perv (and eventual sexual predator) that I am, I have watched several of HBO’s Real Sex ‘documentaries’. I’ve seen the female strippers and the make strippers, and while I’ve never been to a strip club of either variety and cannot verify that what was shown is typical of either, let me tell you that the behavior in the two was quite different. While the female strippers generally have a “no-touching” policy, the males were all about it. Touch all you want. Blow if you want to. And all the women in the audience loved it. Now, I have a hard time believing that a womanwho enjoys getting a mushroom bruise on her cheek from a stripper would be offended if I said, “Nice boobs” while she was walking down the street.
By Chilao
June 7, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
Good Luck FatMoose - stay away from local ‘products’. LMAO but go up to Belize while you are there.
By Good Luck
June 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
Yes, Good luck Moose.
By Chilao
June 7, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Do you realize that 3 out of every 4 women makes up 75% of the female population?
those dang statistics again.
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
Since you say you don’t understand why that was bad Renee:
What does this vodka challenge story have to do with violence against women? There was nothing in the story to suggest that any of these men had ever beaten their wives. But, although I’m sure they didn’t realize it, every one of them made it just a little more possible for any one of them to commit an act of violence against a woman. In order for violence to occur, several things have to be present. First, there has to be a lack of identification with the victim. Second, there has to be a perception of the situation as one that calls for violence. Third, there has to be a decision to act violently, and fourth, there has to be a means of doing harm to the other person. All-male social groups that are disrespectful towards women provide the first part of this formula: a willingness to view women as being different from and less valued than men. Symbolically, the ice sculpture provided an atmosphere that says women are here for men’s pleasure, and we will bond around our shared masculinity in this place where we don’t have to deal with women as human beings. Seeing them as lower status others allows us to justify mistreating them in many ways, including violence. There is an attitudinal undercurrent of women as enemies, in spite of the fact that most of these men were married to and raising children with the enemy. (this is a man writing btw).
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
I choose my words very carefully.I very intentionally did not say “when a person is murdered by a stranger.” Maybe it’s just because I’m a college professor, but I am an absolute believer in the power of language, and there is some everyday language that smuggles in prejudices against women and contributes to the cultural atmosphere that enables gender-based violence. I have 5 examples. The first is the one I just pointed out - passive voice - 1000 women are murdered. The victim, not the perpetrator, is the subject of the sentence. When you see this language often enough, the perpetrator becomes a kind of afterthought. Imagine if sportscasters talked like this: “The score was tied when a three-point basket was scored.” “Many dollars were earned.” Wouldn’t everyone ask, “Who did it? Who is responsible?” Example #2: the use of the term “opposite sex” and the phrase “battle of the sexes”. I challenge you to tell me one way in which the sexes are opposite. Calling men and women opposites is like calling an IBM computer the opposite of an Apple. And “battle of the sexes” implies that men and women are at war. We will never solve this problem until we work together and emphasize our commonalities rather than our differences. I see research studies reported in the popular press - “a recent study proves what we have suspected all along - that men’s and women’s brains are different.” And what they do is find some infinitesimally small portion of the brain that has some minor difference that accounts for 5% of the variance in a population with wide variability, completely ignoring the fact that men’s and women’s brains both have frontal cortex, amygdalas, thalmuses, hypothalamuses, and on and on. And at the end of the story, the anchorman on the news says, “Well, that explains why I can’t understand my wife at all.” (If you can’t understand your wife, I recommend the much-overlooked method of listening to her). Example #3, when I tell people I’m a psychologist specializing in gender-based violence, people always ask, when a man is beating his wife, why does she stay with him? That’s question #2; they never ask question #1: Why would a man hit his wife? Men’s violence is considered to be a given, and women’s responses to that violence are seen as choices. This subtly makes women responsible for the violence. Example #4: self-defense classes for women that are advertised as “rape prevention.” Is it women’s job to prevent rape? Don’t get me wrong - I’m all for women learning self-defense if they want to, but let’s call it what it really is - risk reduction. It is men’s responsibility to prevent rape. Example #5 comes from the recent scandal over sexual assaults at the Air Force Academy. It turns out that there numerous male cadets who have sexually assaulted female cadets, and the men who run the Academy intimidated survivors into keeping silent about it. The newspaper stories said something like, 54 rapes occurred between male and female cadets. I’m sorry - rapes do not occur between people. Does a bank robbery occur between a robber and a teller? Does vandalism occur between a kid with a can of spray paint and somebody’s property? And here’s another flash of brilliance - in reaction to the scandal, the head of the academy said that the problem was that men and women live in the same residence hall and that men would see women walking down the hall in their bathrobes, and that he was going to now have the men and women living in separate residence halls. So, let’s get this straight: the problem is that men are raping women and so the solution is to get rid of the women?! It’s a new height in victim-blaming. I know I get out of control when I see a woman in a bathrobe. How does that work, physiologically? Prostate exerts pressure on the spinal cord, cutting off oxygen to the brain? And, newspapers reported the Air Force problem as a “sex scandal.” I would submit that the victims were not having sex, and we could also argue that the perpetrators were not either.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Symbolically, the ice sculpture provided an atmosphere that says women are here for men’s pleasure, and we will bond around our shared masculinity in this place where we don’t have to deal with women as human beings. Seeing them as lower status others allows us to justify mistreating them in many ways, including violence. There is an attitudinal undercurrent of women as enemies, in spite of the fact that most of these men were married to and raising children with the enemy. (this is a man writing btw).
This is complete bull. There are plenty of all-female social groups. No batchelorette party is complete without a phallic cake. No man I know views women as his enemy.
Pointing, I don’t consider you to be my enemy. I do however, consider you to be my enema. That’s right. When I read some of the stuff you post it’s so mind-blowing to me that my brain short-circuits and I lose control of my bowels. My officemates are not happy right now.
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
“When we see gender-based violence, women-hating is just around the corner. Therefore, if we can turn this attitude around, we can go a long way toward solving this problem. And, the people who are in the best position to do so are men — we have the social status, power, and privilege. We can speak out and affect the attitudes of our fellow men. Just as white people have a special role to play in ending racism, rich people have a special role to play in ending economic inequality, and heterosexuals have a special role to play in ending homophobia, it is vitally important that we, as men of conscience, take seriously our role in ending sexual violence.” (Well, maybe Whiley isn’t so crazy after all!)
By Archie
June 7, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Billy those HBO specials had an influence on my attitude as well. Jenna X is multi-millionaire!!! and here I am working every day fully-clothed with two degrees and I have to ask for a promotion inspite of great reviews. I have seen several women bragging about money their body brings in. I am just glad to see other men on this blog fed up with male-bashing. One of the problems I have had with ministers in the church is that they tend to blame everything bad in a relationship on the man. In case anyone doesn’t understand I attend a predominantly black church.
By Chilliwack
June 7, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
There are 3 types of people in this world, those that are good with numbers and those that aren’t.
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
“In the locker room at the vodka challenge that day, I’m betting that there was at least one man who was uncomfortable with this ice sculpture.But nobody spoke up because each man feels that he may be the only one, and taking on the collective opinion of the rest of the group can leave him out in the cold. There is tremendous pressure to laugh along with the boys or at least not say anything. It would have taken tremendous courage for a man to stand up and say, even matter-of-factly, “That ice sculpture is really offensive; what could you have been thinking? Why don’t we just get rid of it before we’re all embarassed?” And it’s ironic to me that courage is supposed to be a hallmark of masculinity, but there are so many men who find it impossible to display this kind of courage. They would sooner run into a burning building or have a fist fight. Men are also supposed to be independent, but there is tremendous conformity in most all-male peer groups, whether they are adults or younger men. Somebody has got to go first. Somebody has got to take a risk. Someone has to be the leader. It’s masculine to take a risk, to be a leader; why are so few of us doing it?
By Renee
June 7, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this
Pointing - I don’t buy that explanation at all.
It was something done in humor, maybe extremely distasteful humor, but still humor. Maybe you would have an argument if the men started bashing in the ice sculpture, urinating and defacating on it, or even fondling the ice continously.
I can’t believe that you came up with that all that from an ice sculpture. It wasn’t displayed to a coed group, it was a group of men. And how do you know they weren’t giving honor the beautiful state of a female body. Everybody is different. Do you really believe that when any of the husbands told their wives NONE of them laughed. And if any husband didn’t tell his wife it was because he knew she wouldn’t find it humorous.
How is that ice sculpture (which I have to admit I”m curious now and would love to see) any different from women standing around eating a large p-e-n-i-s shaped cake that I might say even had the effect of being in a state of explosion. Did any women leave any closer to beating and/or raping a man. Do you think any men thought that much into the p-e-n-i-s cake when and if they were told of it.
By FatMoose
June 7, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this
By Good Luck
June 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
Yes, Good luck Moose
If you are someone I personally know you know where you can stick your “good luck” - Right into one of those a$$ pocks.
If not, I am truely appriciative. The comment is a personal/inside issue;)
By The72John
June 7, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
Apparently ANY man or woman who chooses to act in a sexual manner is contributing to a culture of violence against women.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
1 — “X people were killed on the state’s highways this weekend.” “President Kennedy was shot and killed…” Passive voice, while annoying at times, is not biased against women. 2 — When there are only two sexes, it is not out of the question for the two to be opposites. It’s a much better “opposite” than the computer one because there can be more computers than PC and Mac. What is the third sex that invalidates the use of “opposite”? And the “battle of the sexes” is just plain stupid. You say we should focus on commonalities? What commonalities???* Apparently I can’t even talk to you without risking getting maced! 3 — A man does have the choice to not hit his wife. But when that hitting starts, it IS A GIVEN FOR THE WIFE. What would you advocate? Her staying with him and asking him to choose not to hit him? GET OUT AND CALL THE EFFING COPS! No, she’s not responsible for the violence, but if the status quo is him hitting her she needs to change something. 4 — No, it’s rapists’ responsibility to prevent rape. Men who are not rapists, are not near an attempted rape, or are not aware of anyone they know attempting rape have no way of preventing it. The notion that I, here in GA, am somehow responsble for preventing a rape in Eugene, Oregon, is preposterous. The fact of the matter is that when it comes down to it, the only people involved in most rapes are going to be the perpetrators and the victims. Men don’t jsut sit idly by and let the rapes occur. The majority are going to try to stop it somehow.But that scenario doesn’t happen all that often. In most cases, it’s the rapist and the victim. And, yes, in these situations it is the woman’s responsibility to prevent rape because the only other person involved is a sociopath that has already made his decision.
5 — I’m not about to defend the scandal in the military, but what you shouhld focus your energy on there is the military — run largely by the old-guard patriarchal types, many believing that women have no place in the armend forces to begin with. I expect nothing less from them than simplistic explanations like sharing the same dorms. That’s what they do. It’s not evidence that supports the idea that all men are liable to rape someone and it in no way justifies your behavior on this blog.And as far as the use of the word “between”: I’m guessing it was used to illustrate that the rapes involved cadets of both genders — “..between male and female cadets… — and not cadets of one sex and civilians of another. I’m sorry if it offended you semantic sensibilities.
By Mara
June 7, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
just popped in while eating my sammich. New study out today, if you like to read it, check here http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13167804/?GT1=8211 or at MSNBC.com -
Excerpt - Teenage girls commonly have sex not because they want to, but because they feel pressured into it — and the result may be a higher risk of sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy, a new study suggests. Researchers found that among 279 teenage girls they interviewed, many said they’d given in to unwanted sex at some point because they were afraid their boyfriend would get angry
The study included girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were seen at urban health clinics in Indianapolis. Over about two years, the girls were periodically interviewed about their current relationships, including any instances of unwanted sex over the past three months. Specific questions included: “Would he break up with you unless you had sex?” and “Would he get mad if you didn’t want to have sex?”
In all, 41 percent said they’d had unwanted sex at some point. The most common reason was fear that their boyfriend would become angry. *Ten percent, though, said their partner forced them have sex when they didn’t want to. About 5 percent said they’d had sex after being offered money or gifts.
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
If men’s violent behavior is perceived as an unchangeable constant, then violence toward women is a women’s issue, never a men’s issue. “Boys will be boys” not only provides a measure of excuse for violence against women, it is a very disrespectable attitude toward men, as if we are animals, with absolutely no control over ourselves. And again, there’s an irony here. Self-control is another hallmark of traditional masculinity, but aggression and sexuality are considered to be completely out of control — a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. I want men to have more dignity than that. I saw this book title recently, “All men are jerks until proven otherwise.” It made me sad - and I also realized, how am I ever going to prove what I’m not? Maybe I was a nice guy today, but who knows what’s going to happen tomorrow. It’s a sad state of affairs when so many men have behaved so irresponsibly that the rest of us have to carry the burden of understandable suspicion from women. So, besides becoming more respectful toward women, we have to regain our self-respect. We are human beings who are capable of caring for others. We are not animals who lash out instinctively, poisoned by testosterone. Violence against women is a men’s issue, and men have to take a leadership role in building a more positive male community. A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do. Thanks to those of you who have been doing this work. Kilmartin, C. (2006). Men’s Violence Against Women. SPSMM Bulletin, 10 (4). on line at http://www.apa.org/divisions/div51/div51/01.htm
By Raped on 5/17/06
June 7, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Whiley…pointy person…. you guys are nuts. I’ve been reading the blog as it actually hit a little to close to home. (Only as far as the raped portion, I was dressed in my usual work attire from Casual Corner) Most on the blog have reiterated that how women dress, at the very least, has very little, if any, to do with rape. Billy I think said it best. Seek help!
By Raped on 5/17/06
June 7, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Whiley…pointy person…. you guys are nuts. I’ve been reading the blog as it actually hit a little to close to home. (Only as far as the raped portion, I was dressed in my usual work attire from Casual Corner) Most on the blog have reiterated that how women dress, at the very least, has very little, if any, to do with rape. Billy I think said it best. Seek help!
By Chilao
June 7, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
And how do you know they weren’t giving honor the beautiful state of a female body.
Thank you Renee!. Oh, wait, we no longer can appreciate a woman’s body, now what is the world coming to?
By Toad
June 7, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
Pointing,
Interesting point about courage and leadership. Of course, being a leader means someone, or a group, will follow, so I think speaking out against something offensive that everyone else seems not to be offended by takes more courage than leadership. Courage to risk being laughed at, made to feel unmasculine, or not one of the guys. As Audre Lorde said: “Speak up even if your voice is shaking.” (or something like that) What is more courageous — to kill civilians, engage in gang rape, or to say, “hey, guys, you are doing something wrong?”
By GOB
June 7, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
Mara - Couldnt that article have been written at any point in the last 100 years and still said exactly the same thing? Hasnt this sort of thing been happening for about as long as there have been teenagers? What stands out to me has nothing to do with the boys, but rather how the girls view themselves. A little more self-respect would go a long way.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
I saw that Mara, and I think that girls would be less willing to give in and boys would be less willing to pressure them to were they more aware of the definition of rape. Last I checked, it was not only physically forced sex that constituted rape. It was also coerced sex. Meaning if I were to blackmail someone into having sex with me, I’d not only be guilty of blackmail, but also of rape.
I think it falls to parents to raise their boys to not pressure girls and girls to realize that a boy who pressures you is lower than pond scum.
By GOB
June 7, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
Billy - I agree with you. Passive voice is annoying.
By Toad
June 7, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
Pointing,
Interesting point about courage and leadership. Of course, being a leader means someone, or a group, will follow, so I think speaking out against something offensive that everyone else seems not to be offended by takes more courage than leadership. Courage to risk being laughed at, made to feel unmasculine, or not one of the guys. As Audre Lorde said: “Speak up even if your voice is shaking.” (or something like that) What is more courageous — to kill civilians, engage in gang rape, or to say, “hey, guys, you are doing something wrong?”
By The72John
June 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
I am so very, very, sick of self-righteous sanctimonious twits who expect me to feel guilty because I am a man and because some men abuse women. I don’t mistreat women or condone the mistreatment of women, so please take your BS whining and stick it.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this
Pointing, I am tiring of your cut-and-paste BS. The vast majority of men most any woman knows are not violent towards women and have not raped a soul. You keep saying it’s mens’ responsibility to prevent rape and violence toward women. What are we supposed to do? What can I do? I asked yesterday if I was supposed to put on a cape and bust into people’s houses to see if any violence is occurring. Should I do that?
The only thing I can think to do is raise my son not to hit women, the same way my father did me.
By raped may 17th
June 7, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this
Whiley…Pointy person… you guys are psycho. Who give a rats azz if someone thinks a chic is a slut for wearing scant clothing. So blankety blank blank what! Sure as Mara said it would be nice if anyone could wear anything and not get typecast (sp?). Clothes has nothing to do with rape! Do I have to say that no one on this blog has condoned rape because of what a womam is wearing, because no one has. Yall need help!
By raped may 17th
June 7, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
Whiley…Pointy person… you guys are psycho. Who give a rats azz if someone thinks a chic is a slut for wearing scant clothing. So blankety blank blank what! Sure as Mara said it would be nice if anyone could wear anything and not get typecast (sp?). Clothes has nothing to do with rape! Do I have to say that no one on this blog has condoned rape because of what a womam is wearing, because no one has. Yall need help!
By Toad
June 7, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
72John, Good for you for not condoning violence against women. I hope you also speak up against degradation of women when you hear it. It’s unfortunate that groups of people, especially black men, are perceived so negatively because they belong to groups of people who are most often perpetuators of crime.
By Toad
June 7, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
Oops! I meant perpetrators.
By Toad
June 7, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
Oops! I meant perpetrators.
By Toad
June 7, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this
Oops! I meant perpetrators.
By Billy
June 7, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this
Toad, for the past couple of weeks the board is taking a good five minutes before showing posts. Just wait and refresh every minute or two and you’ll see it pop up at some point. I know, it’s like watching a reporter on the news via satellite…
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
GOB says “What stands out to me has nothing to do with the boys, but rather how the girls view themselves. A little more self-respect would go a long way.” It’s her fault, her fault, her fault. Boys will be boys, but she needs to get some self-respect.”
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this
According to data from the widely referenced book, ‘School Pregnancy: Why Hasn’t Prevention Worked?’ men older than 21 are three times more likely than are junior high school boys to father children with junior high school girls.”
Chicago Tribune columnist Dawn Turner Trice wrote a column recently about the biggest challenge teenagers identified in their South Side community — and it wasn’t drugs, violence or poverty; it was men preying on teenage girls.
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
Billy says, “It’s the parents’ fault and the girls’ fault. It’s not the boys’ fault for raping!!!!”
By pointingatcreepymen/women
June 7, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this
By The72John June 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
I am so very, very, sick of self-righteous sanctimonious twits who expect me to feel guilty because I am a man and because some men abuse women. I don’t mistreat women or condone the mistreatment of women, so please take your BS whining and stick it.
Such a good point 72. You know what I’m sick of? Self righteous sanctimonious homosexuals who expect me to help change attitudes about gay marriage with our legislators when I have never mistreated gays. So YOU take your BS whining and stick it! I’m also sick of self righteous blacks who expect me to help change attitudes about prejudice. I don’t mistreat blacks and I don’t condone it, so please take your BS whining and stick it. Now let me tell you a few degrading jokes about black folks and f* okay? I want to hear a big old guffaw from you.
By Julia
June 7, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this
Just checked in to see what was happening.
Moose-I wish you all the best on your new adventure!!!
My office partners are on vacation and I’ll be able to check with you guys over the next week or so. See ya tomorrow I hope.
By GOB
June 8, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this
GOB says “What stands out to me has nothing to do with the boys, but rather how the girls view themselves. A little more self-respect would go a long way.” It’s her fault, her fault, her fault. Boys will be boys, but she needs to get some self-respect.”
Pointing - Did you even read the post I was responding to? It referenced an article about girls sleeping with their boyfriends because they were afraid that the boy would dump them if they didnt. Do you feel that there isnt a self-respect issue there?
If the girl is going along with the guy, then in reality, what has he done wrong? If she doesnt tell him that she is only sleeping with him so he wont dump her, he doesnt know. How is that the boy’s fault?
By Renee
June 8, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this
excellent, excellent comeback pointing
By Billy
June 8, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this
I never said it’s not the boy’s fault! I said it’s up to parents to raise their kids right! I’m currently thinking yours could have done a better job…
By Mara
June 8, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
GOB - to be truthful, the study didn’t say that the ones who weren’t forcibly raped were afraid of being dumped, it said they were afraid that their boyfriends would get angry. The concern with getting dumped was only one question in the study.
If the girl says no, and the boy keeps pressuring her until she says yes….how’s that not the boys fault?
By Jack
June 8, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this
Hi Julia. Miss ya.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this
In my opinion Mara, it’s about taking personal responsibility. Your statements do not teach a girl to take any responsibility for her actions.
I don’t care if someone is pressuring you into drugs, if you take the drugs, who is responsible??? Same with sex. If you are running around with a group of kids who are attacking and robbing people, you can’t go to court with the defense that “they pressured me into it, and I did it because I thought they would be mad”.
It is about self-respect, and not giving a damn about anybody getting mad at you. Girls giving it up because they “thought their boyfriend would get angry” does not equate rape and should not be compared as such. Of course the boy is going to pressure the girl. If he’s sitting there with a hard d!ck, he’s going to turn back flips if he has to to get the punnanny. IT’S THE GIRL’S RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY NO!! For too long, girls have been given the out to not take responsibility for their actions, they are told if they were pressured, it’s not their fault. HECK YEA IT IS. And that’s EXACTLY what I teach my daughter who I might add is a virgin. And short of a boy actually raping her, it will be her fault if SHE gives it up.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this
If the girl says no, and the boy keeps pressuring her until she says yes….how’s that not the boys fault?
Mara, it is the boy’s fault. But if the girl had more self-esteem/self-worth, she might realized that a boy who will pressure her like that isn’t worth keeping around and dump him. And I’m not saying that this is the girl’s fault; it’s her parents’ fault and her friends’ fault and society’s fault for not instilling her with that sense of self-worth in the first place.
I don’t see what is so difficult about this. Say I have a nice car, full of nice things, and I park it on the street. I could leave the doors unlocked, and anyone who stole the car or any of my possessions inside it would be in the wrong. There’s no questioning that. But my leaving it unlocked would be stupid. It’s still the thief’s fault, but I could have done a little more on my part.
By GOB
June 8, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this
If the girl says no, and the boy keeps pressuring her until she says yes….how’s that not the boys fault?
In that situation, I dont see there being any real fault. If there is no force or intimidation, then the girl can continue to say no, or she can dump the guy. If she chooses to not do either of those things, then she has made a decision that it is more beneficial in the long run to say yes. There could be some self-respect issues involved in that decision, but I wouldnt lay blame on either person.
My wife pressures me the same way to go to the mall with her, or any other number of things that I dont want to do. Often times I will cave and say yes, even though I said no beforehand. That doesnt mean that either of us are at fault. That’s how relationships work, right?
And to make sure certain people understand, in this case, there is no force, threat of force, blackmail, etc. Just a dating couple with a guy who wants to sleep with his girlfriend.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this
Why are sex offenders ever let out of jail? They re-offend, & re-offend, & re-offend, and murder, all too often. This current murderer (bikini strangler) didn’t even know the girl. He just saw her out in public & targeted her.
With that in mind, PROVES you MUST treat any man you don’t know as a potential threat. It’s very unfortunate that’s the way things are. It’s more unfortunate those in charge don’t care enough to keep these dangerous people away from the public.
We are sick of having to change OUR bahavior because TOO many men are dangerous. There are over 500 thousand registered sex offenders in this country. This does not include the monsters who failed to registered, are missing, or were never/not yet convicted.
WHEN are the people in charge going to do something about this? I say mandatory tatoo’s across the faces of all sex offenders & murders convicted.
It would at least give women a better chance of avoiding these creeps.
Start supervising your boys better.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
Another question. What are we doing wrong that we are raising so many boys that grow up into men with such sexist or violent behavior? What causes so many to turn bad?
Why is it OK for college boys to hire strippers but not ok to hire, lets say black people dressed as slaves to serve them during a party? Both instances are degrading & potentially dangerous to another group.
Would hiring “slaves in slave attire” ever be normal entertainment for frat parties, bachelor parties, business functions or clubs? After all, the “slaves” are being paid & they don’t HAVE to do it right? Wonder how that would affect overall opinion & treatment of blacks?
I use the example of black people because just in my lifetime I’ve seen a huge change socially. An entire group had finally had enough & stood up for themselves & DEMANDED the country change.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this
Start supervising your boys better.
I don’t know how many times or in what other way I can say this: I will raise my son right. He will not be a rapist or a sexual predator of any sort, barring some sort of chemical, psychiatric issue. I will teach him that violence against women is not OK. He will learn that he does not need to have sex to prove his manliness. He will know it is wrong to pressure anyone into doing anything they do not want to, including, by all means, girls into sex. That is all I can do, because I do not have any control over anyone other than my son and I do not know any rapists. In the meantime, I don’t care if women see me as a potential threat, but if I walk up to you to ask you for directions and you mace me or pull a gun on me because I might be a rapist, I’ll press charges. Agreed?
By Mara
June 8, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this
GOB - Since this example/question was sort of a distillation of the study results, how do you know that there was no threat of force, blackmail, etc? The study doesn’t say exactly why the girls felt afraid of their boyfriends anger. So as far as you know, there may have been at least a perceived threat, which would explain the fear. Or maybe not. I don’t know either. The study doesn’t quantify the reasons for this expressed fear. It is certainly as valid to say the girls were intimidated into sex as it is to say that it was all innocent enough, just a boy wanting to get into a girls pants. We do know that the girls didn’t want to have sex, whatever the end result was.
This is not to say that the points about self-esteem and assertiveness are without merit. Indeed I agree that these traits in greater quantity could likely avert some of these situations. I do, however, also find interesting that some seem to equate the coercion of sex as little different than being nagged into going to the mall, or talked into having Italian instead of Chinese.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
Whiley, do you honestly think that women are no better off now than they were 150 years ago? You can vote, own property…hell, you can even have sex with any guy you want if you can find one not afraid of getting frostbite from your icy, frigid minge.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this
Ok - Whiley. Here goes.
If black people are willing to dress up as slaves and play the part and make the money, then who are we to say anything. It wouldn’t be in good taste, in my opinion, but if everybody is a willing party, then who am I to say anything. If I was there, I would probably voice my opinion and leave. If I wasn’t there I would be amazed that black people did agree to this, BUT on the for real, my feelings about it wouldn’t make a difference.
Now if they were REAL slaves, that would be ILLEGAL. People are ALWAYS going to do something that is rude, in poor taste or downright mean to another group. If no black people were there, except for the willing participants, the people holding the event probably knew it wouldn’t bother anyone. Hence the reason for college boys hosting a frat party with a stripper.
Oh, and did you know girls that are not lesbians watch strippers. They come with their boyfriends, they go to just drink etc…. Are they too degrading the willing, dancing, I might add talented, women.
By Brian Curtis
June 8, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
Whiley, you have to keep trying to convince everyone that sexual assault is bad. You succeeded. Missiong Accomplished, okay? Congratulations; we all agree that rape is officially “BAD,” now that you’ve shown us the light. We started this week all in favor of rape, but now you’ve turned us against it. Way to go. Was there anything else you wanted to accomplish here?
Other than insisting that all sexual behavior from males be punished and controlled because RAPE IS BAD? (After all, any and all sexual behavior from males is the same as rape, unless it’s whistling, which qualifies as “rape and terrorism combined.”)
Today’s posts have demonstrated another astounding revelation: Teenagers Are Stupid. I know I’m shocked….
By Renee
June 8, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
It is certainly as valid to say the girls were intimidated into sex as it is to say that it was all innocent enough, just a boy wanting to get into a girls pants. We do know that the girls didn’t want to have sex, whatever the end result was
Mara, well how about this. How about the girl did want to do it but had regrets after the fact. If a girl is pressured not the boys fault, why is that so hard to grasp. She short of physical intimidation (which I might add would have been indicated on this survey) is responsible for her own actions. NOT THE BOY!! He is responsible for HIS actions. He should learn not to pressure BUT THE GIRL SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO BE PRESSURED!!!
By Billy
June 8, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this
I do, however, also find interesting that some seem to equate the coercion of sex as little different than being nagged into going to the mall, or talked into having Italian instead of Chinese.
I equate the coercion of sex to rape. I do not equate a guy asking his girlfriend, “Please?” every day to coercion. Granted, it’s a gray area — largely subjective, but still…
By GOB
June 8, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this
Mara - I was stepping away from that study in the example I used. Because it was so unclear, there is really no way to respond to it in a reasonable way.
I do, however, also find interesting that some seem to equate the coercion of sex as little different than being nagged into going to the mall, or talked into having Italian instead of Chinese.
I don’t think this is a fair representation of what was said. If the guy keeps asking for sex until the girl says yes, it is no more coercive that when my wife wants me to go to mall or have Italian instead of Chinese. When you refer to the latter as simply being nagged, you are trivializing that piece of the argument for the sole purpose of making the “coercion” seem more sinister.
By GOB
June 8, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
Today’s posts have demonstrated another astounding revelation: Teenagers Are Stupid. I know I’m shocked….
What?!?! That’s the first I have heard of this. I always assumed that teenagers made sound, logical decisions. Well this changes everything…
By Grow Up
June 8, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this
Billy, I think you are obnoviouys and very rude and crude. Keep your sexist and demeaning comments to yourself. We don’t need to hear them. Stop referring to women’s private parts with vulgar terminology ok. You’re showing yourself to be the teenager that you are.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Billy I believe that your son/s will not grow up to be the men we are all talking about. If you are truly teaching equality.
What parent wants to see their child grow up to be a monster?
Billy is it that too many families aren’t investing the proper time, love & supervision? Too many liberties are given to our boy children? As I see it unless the schools have mandatory classes to guide our boys otherwise, there will be no end ever to this problem. It will forever be a woman’s issue. It will forever be the women’s responsibility.
Of course women are better off than 150 years ago, that’s obvious. Why did it take thousands of years to get free of that ridiculous oppression? My guess it’s difficult to stand up for yourself when you aren’t allowed an education, money, or much of anything else, and the ones in charge will kill you for stepping out of line. It’s sickening to think about sometimes.
Just because we can vote & own property, does not mean we’ve done enough. It does not mean we shouldn’t be doing everything possible to stop all this violence. We’re sick of having to look over our shoulders going about our daily lives.
“I don’t care if women see me as a potential threat,”
Most men don’t care.
Which is the biggest problem.
“You can vote, own property…hell, you can even have sex with any guy you want if you can find one not afraid of getting frostbite from your icy, frigid minge. “
I changed my mind, you will raise just another sexist boy who grows up to be an even more sexist man. Have fun visiting your rapist son in prison.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this
And let’s not forget the pressure that girls feel to have sex that comes from sources other than the boy. Everything in society is highly sexualized. High school girls are reading Cosmo, learning 8 different ways to stimulate his prostate or whatever that month’s article is about. It’s in ads, it’s in movies, it’s on TV…It’s even in music. Music by women. “My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard…”
Even other girls apply that pressure. You have a group of friends. One has sex, but she doesn’t want to fell like she’s the only one doing it. So she tells her friends how great it is in the hopes they will as well. That way it’s not just her. Look, I’ve rarely met a woman who, looking back, says she was completely ready for sex when she started having it — not too young, not pressured, with the right guy, informed of all her options for protecting herself — and those who have said they were ready I could tell were not.
There is an element of opposition here — two sides in a long-term negotiation over a resource. And, yes, it seems bad to equate sex with something trivial like where to eat dinner or a trip to the mall, but many women are guilty of using sex as a punishment in the same way. “You didn’t take out the trash? You’re cut off for a week.” Women treat sex as a weapon sometimes, using it to get what they want. You don’t see me calling them all whores or anything!
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
Whiley — I’m not sexist. I like women. I’d rather spend time with my wife and her friends than my friends on many occasions, largely because I like seeing my wife having fun with her friends.
I like women. I just don’t like you.
Why? Because you have, since the first day of this topic, been equating pickup lines and whistling to rape. Because any display of sexuality or attraction to a woman on the part of a man is equated to sexual assault. Whiley, you have no reason to fear me. I’m not a potential rapist. Far from it. In fact, were the last three people on Earth you, 72John, and myself, I’d do him before I even thought about doing you. So — should you see me walking down the road, don’t cross the street or run away in fear, because I have no desire to touch you in the least.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
Renee - your point that boys aren’t responsible for coercing sex from unwilling girls is not “hard to grasp”, I just disagree with it. Since 60% of girls reported that they never had sex without they, themselves, wanting to do so…one assumes that your hypothetical girl who wants to and then regrets it later would be included in the 60%, not the 40% who didn’t want to. Certainly the girls could have said “No” over and over and over. After all, as far as we know the guy never threatened harm to them so if they had just kept resisting…..
Billy - I certainly agree that what constitutes “coercion” is very subjective. Like you, I wouldn’t equate the once daily “Please?!” to coercion either. But the gray comes in when the “Please” turns into some version of “I won’t love you anymore unless you…” Emotional blackmail.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
By Grow Up
Billy, I think you are obnoviouys and very rude and crude. Keep your sexist and demeaning comments to yourself. We don’t need to hear them. Stop referring to women’s private parts with vulgar terminology ok. You’re showing yourself to be the teenager that you are.
First of all, I’m 27. I said this before. Secondly, I’d use the proper terminology, but the filter won’t allow v****. That means I have to get creative with it. Lastly, while I might be rude, crude, and obnoxious, I am not sexist. The demeaning comments I’ve made this week have been intended only for Whiley and pointing, whoever that is, and not for anyone else. And the only reason I made them to those two(?) is that they were making all-encompassing statements about men and how we are the reason they can’t live f******* lives.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
““You didn’t take out the trash? You’re cut off for a week.” Women treat sex as a weapon sometimes, using it to get what they want. You don’t see me calling them all whores or anything!”
what???!!! lolol that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Is that the best a sexist pig can come up with? That kind of thinking is one of the reasons EVERYBODY should treat “those people” as a possible threat.
When you see one acting up, spray it with with a paintgun. That way even children will be able to stay away from them.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
Billy - I certainly agree that what constitutes “coercion” is very subjective. Like you, I wouldn’t equate the once daily “Please?!” to coercion either. But the gray comes in when the “Please” turns into some version of “I won’t love you anymore unless you…” Emotional blackmail.
I agree. I think we need more information about this study. The ones conducting it may have asked girls about a number of different scenarios, then classified them as coercion. I mean, Whiley & pointing would classify giving in to repeated requests as coercion, even if no threats of any sort were ever given. Hell, they probably think that my wife having sex with me just because it’s my birthday is coercion.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
men and how we are the reason they can’t live f* lives.
OK, for the record, that’s supposed to be “functional”. F-u-n-c-t-i-o-n-a-l. Maybe I transposed the ‘n’ and ‘c’ or something…
By Billy
June 8, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
Whiley, you say it’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard, but you offer no rebuttal. Do you deny that women use sex to get what they want? That’s exactly what strippers do — show their bodies in a sexual light so men give them money. How is that untrue?
By Netbanker
June 8, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Half of America is obsessed with 6-6-6, the other half with sex-sex-sex. I just had to share this AJC Vent. I immediately agreed with the statement and then started to wonder if it isn’t really the same half of America who is obsessed with BOTH.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
“Because you have, since the first day of this topic, been equating pickup lines and whistling to rape. Because any display of sexuality or attraction to a woman on the part of a man is equated to sexual assault. “
Sexist pig, WHEN A STRANGER is way too close & telling me he’d like to eat my P@#$@#, I’d say that is NOT A PICK UP LINE ! That is verbal rape & I consider that a huge threat! Since you are a sexist pig I don’t expect you to ever understand that. GEEZUS SOME PEOPLE ARE SO STUPID ! !
If I pass you walking down the street or in a parking lot, as long as you weren’t acting like a F@#$ sexist pig I wouldn’t feel threatened by you. I’d certainly be careful around you tho. Rapists, robbers, car jackers & murderers come in all shapes, sizes & appearance. Till the time comes “those” people are easily identified, I’m not taking any chances. And f@#$# YOU FOR criticizing me for being a little irritated about.
By Brian Curtis
June 8, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
Mara: Are you suggesting that we outlaw emotional blackmail, or treat it as a crime? Because that area is so gray it could pass for a fog bank—and both men AND women engage in it all the time.
By kimberly
June 8, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
Whiley, Hon, it’s a lost cause. They don’t CARE. The idea that a man of ANY persuasion would actually truly give a s—- one way or the other about the violations women suffer is just misplaced optimism. Even fathers have a limited ability to give a s—- about the violations of their own daughters. They PREFER not to hear or think about it. Only half of the women you’ll meet even have the capacity to be non-competitive enough to muster up a smidgen of empathy. Now, as always, we’re supposed to keep our pain to ourselves. As far as they’re concerned, it IS our fault. They DON’T CARE! They just f—-ing DON’T.
Nice topic this week, b—-ches!
By Whiley Fan
June 8, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
Whiley-LOL at the paintgun! Stick to your guns (so to speak!)-you are a strong woman and a great example for women’s rights. (((((high five)))))
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
“That’s exactly what strippers do — show their bodies in a sexual light so men give them money. How is that untrue?”
That’s true because men who do that are stupid ignorant sexist pigs. What losers. Have to PAY MONEY so a woman will show her breasts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS.
USE the paintgun.
By Brian Curtis
June 8, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
What are they supposed to do, Whiley—walk up to women they’re attracted to and get sprayed with mace? Locked up for looking a second too long?
By lumping all sexual interest together under the category of “rape and assault,” you’re devaluing the real severity of the ACTUAL crime… and discrediting yourself in the process.
Rudeness is never going to be treated as “terrorism,” Whiley. And your insistence that it should be would make women’s concerns seem trivial and misplaced, if anyone confused the ravings of one obsessive lunatic with women in general (as you seem to equate one rapist with all men in general).
By Billy
June 8, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this
If I pass you walking down the street or in a parking lot, as long as you weren’t acting like a F@#$ sexist pig I wouldn’t feel threatened by you
Well, I wouldn’t be, but you seem to believe that all men do that. Or at least that all men, in some strange way, are responsible for those that do.
And f@#$# YOU FOR criticizing me for being a little irritated about.
“A little irritated”??? Are you kidding me? You’ve been ranting about it non-stop all week! Not to mention your insistence on interpreting the idea that women can take steps to protect themselves as an accusation that they are at fault when they are sexually assaulted, a statement not one of us has made all week.
That’s true because men who do that are stupid ignorant sexist pigs. What losers. Have to PAY MONEY so a woman will show her breasts. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS.
I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve never been to a strip club or to a private party a stripper was working. I do know several women who have seen male strippers, though. LOOOOOSERs, right? Desperate, ignorant, sexist pigs. Have to pay money so a man will show his wang. You still won’t admit the possibliyt that some strippers are not being taken advantage of and in fact enjoy their jobs.
Kim, that’s not true. we do care. But words are not rape, all men are not rapists, and your average man cannot do anything to stop rapes. And when someone crawls your arse about something over which you have no control, you get a little cranky. That’s what’s happened to me. I care about the plight of women in general, just like I care about everyone. But I don’t give a lick for anyone who accuses me of being responsible for things like rape.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
Brian - that, my dear, is why I agree that it is a “gray area”. I honestly don’t know what should be done. Until society as a whole agrees as to what situations comprise “consensual sex” the issue is going to stay subjective.
Billy - I actually have a friend who’s ex used to blackmail him like that all the time. Not about taking the garbage out, but more like a prostitute. She’d have sex only if he bought her something or took her somewhere. Or at least that’s what I was told. Two sides to every story, but I’ve known him long enough and saw enough of their relationship to trust his version more than hers.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this
Thanks Mara!
By Archie
June 8, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
“In my opinion Mara, it’s about taking personal responsibility. Your statements do not teach a girl to take any responsibility for her actions.”
RIGHT ON RENEE!!! Some on this blog can’t possibly be feminist. In fact I am starting to seriously question the comprehension skills of some people.
I was asked to use drugs over and over and I said no over and over. Those people that asked simply moved on. Even a fool knows a lost cause.
” IT’S THE GIRL’S RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY NO!! For too long, girls have been given the out to not take responsibility for their actions, they are told if they were pressured, it’s not their fault. HECK YEA IT IS.”
Thanks Renee I posted weeks ago about women taking the blame for things and it is obvious that some simply can’t take blame. I plan on teaching my daughter the same thing that you have.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
Billy - I think the point about (non-rapist) men being able to prevent rape may be in the larger context of them encouraging a societal change where acceptance of female denigration is discouraged within the male community. Some things that men might view as harmless fun, or harmless admiration, do, in effect condone the objectification of women.
For example, the girl in the “Look at my boobs” T-shirt. Guy walks by, “hey, nice t*” His friend would have an obligation to say “hey buddy. That’s somebodies sister/mother/daughter there.” Or when a rejected suitor begins ranting about a womans obvious frigidity, his friend should point out that perhaps the girl just wasn’t attracted to him. (shrug) That’ll probably never happen, but I’m pretty sure that this is what is meant when someone like Whiley says that all men are responsible for preventing rape. Unfortunately many societies still tend to lean toward evaluating the worth of a woman by her sexuality, and the worth of a man by his ability to father offspring.
By Fat Moose
June 8, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
Whiley/Kimberly, Yours and Kimberly’s first problem is this: You address this group as if you are talking directly to a group of convicted rapists or parents of rapists - which, as you know, we are not.
Think about it, what can YOU do about the woman next door that is doing/cooking meth with her kids in the house? Are you the police for all females bc you share the same gender? Are you of one collective consciousness? Do you share in this meth mothers blame?
And whiley’s exmaples of support for gay rights and etc is an inaccurate comparison. Laws HAVE BEEN passed protecting females by labeling a man who is 18 and has sex with a 16yo as a sex offender FOR LIFE; and these are insane conditions to appease freaks like you by a congress/system that is a male majority; where as laws regarding gay rights have not been passed.
But we have been though this with you even bowing out after enough numbers have proved that your notion is TOTALLY inaccurate (something like 5% of males are these f%cks that assault).
Yours and kimberly’s insistance of lies in the face of truth only exhibits one thing, you cannot learn and are perminently damaged - I feel for you and your kids. You two will breed more victims, and these sickos LOOK for victims - they can smell the fear like dogs and it attracts them.
We should also debate sometime why EVERY ONE of the sick serial rapists/killers had MOTHERS that abused them mentally, sexually and physically. Seems there is enough responsibility to go around…
And remember everyone, Whiley has NOT EVER actually been in a traumatising situation - by her own admission. She lies about what she saw/heard until you call her on it; and then she refers to “well I heard these things happen.” So this attitude has been taught to her…perhaps by her psychotic mother.
By GOB
June 8, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
Billy - I certainly agree that what constitutes “coercion” is very subjective. Like you, I wouldn’t equate the once daily “Please?!” to coercion either. But the gray comes in when the “Please” turns into some version of “I won’t love you anymore unless you…” Emotional blackmail.
But this goes right back to the idea of self-respect and worth. If you are confident in who you are and what you expect out of yourself, you would walk away from that person. If we did a better job promoting self-respect as a society, we would be able to avoid a lot of those situations. Guys would be less likely to try and get a girl to sleep with him that way, and when they did, the girls would be more likely to say no anyway and leave.
Since 60% of girls reported that they never had sex without they, themselves, wanting to do so…one assumes that your hypothetical girl who wants to and then regrets it later would be included in the 60%, not the 40% who didn’t want to.
Without knowing how the questions were asked, there is no way to know if this is an even remotely relevant study for the topic at hand. If my wife sleeps with me on my birthday, but wasnt really in the mood herself, then would she now be part of the 40%?
By GOB
June 8, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this
For example, the girl in the “Look at my boobs” T-shirt. Guy walks by, “hey, nice t” His friend would have an obligation to say “hey buddy. That’s somebodies sister/mother/daughter there.”*
But shouldn’t the female community condemn the girl wearing the shirt just as much, as she is certainly perpetuation the objectification of herself.
Also, I have been around enough women to know that they do many of the same things, as far as comments about men walking by, etc go. So in reality, what is the actual difference?
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this
“What are they supposed to do, Whiley—walk up to women they’re attracted to and get sprayed with mace? Locked up for looking a second too long?”
Sexist pig, stop being stupid. If a man is just talking to a woman, no problem. If he approaches a woman & immediatly starts talking about her genitals or rubs his crotch while licking his lips he should EXPECT to be paintgunned like the out of control animal he is.
BTW, women go to strip clubs to LAUGH. Maybe once or twice in their lifetime if that. MEN pay to see women naked to feed their sick twisted sexist male loser urges. “oOOOOOOH A BOOOBIE ! UUUHHHHAARRRRRRRRRGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR MUST SEE MORE MUST SEE MORE ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ARF ARF ! ! MUST SEE MORE, MUST SEE MORE ! ! ! ” “GOTTA BRING THE NEW CLIENTS AT WORK HERE, THEY’LL THINK I’M ALL POWERFUL HAVE A BIG d@#$@#.” “YEA my wife & kids are at home, who gives a SH@#$ about that” “BOOOOOOBIEEEEEESSSSSSSS” ! ! ! ! ARF ! ARF !
get the paintgun.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this
For example, the girl in the “Look at my boobs” T-shirt. Guy walks by, “hey, nice t” His friend would have an obligation to say “hey buddy. That’s somebodies sister/mother/daughter there.”*
See, I disagree here. She is wearing that particular shirt for that reason. That’s exaclty what I’m laking about when I say that when you wear certain clothes you shouhld expect certain attention.
Call me a pig or whatever, but certain clothing can make you look like a tease. Yes, a tease. Little miss lookatmyboobs knows exactly what she’s doing. She wants guys to look at her boobs. That’s being a tease, and that’s fine. But part of being a tease is accepting the attention that being a tease garners. Lookatmyboobs wants guys to look at her boobs, but if she doesn’t want them to comment on them as well, she shouhldn’t be Miss Lookatmyboobs. She should wear a different shirt.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this
GOB - depends. Was she afraid you’d get mad if she said “No”? Did she feel like she had to have sex to retain your affection? Or was it more like a gift that she gave to you because she knew you’d value it?
I think that despite the very high percentage of girls who did have sex when they didn’t want to, it’s pretty encouraging that a full 60% didn’t. I wonder if there is some threshold percentage of society that will never be self-confident enough to be able to say NO to someone they think they need…
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
“We should also debate sometime why EVERY ONE of the sick serial rapists/killers had MOTHERS that abused them mentally, sexually and physically. Seems there is enough responsibility to go around…”
WELL THEN sexist pig, then there should be JUST AS MANY FEMALE MURDERERS, RAPISTS, CHILD MOLESTERS as men. The numbers of incarcerated men & women should be EQUAL then shouldn’t it.
It’s not even remotely close, so your little argument there is nothing but sexist pig crap.
By Monica
June 8, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
For example, the girl in the “Look at my boobs” T-shirt. Guy walks by, “hey, nice t”
How can a woman NOT accept responsibility for a comment that she might get when she wears a T-shirt like that?
Whiley, where do you live? I have never had men talk to me the way that you suggest they talk to women.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Gee, Whiley, I guess the women I’ve talked to were the exceptions to the rule. They went for the titillation of seeing cockandballs.
Get the tranquilizer gun.
By Librul Media MyBUTT
June 8, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this
From a headline link on their front web page, 11 Alive News gives us the important “NEWS” that Congressman Tom Price thinks Zarqawi’s death is a positive thing.
Strangely, Congressman Price (R-Suckup) had nothing whatsoever to do with bringing this about. He is, however, running for re-election against both a democratic and a republican opponent for the usually-uncontested sixth district seat.
And coincidentally, he embarrassed himself by failing to show up for a scheduled debate last week. Looks like he can rely on his buddies in the (liberal) “news” media for a little image stroking. He is, afterall, one of the ten wealthiest congressmen in the nation, which is enough to buy “news” coverage whenever he opens his mouth to parrot GOP talking points.
I’m so old, I remember when reporters actually did news.
By Archie
June 8, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
“In my opinion Mara, it’s about taking personal responsibility. Your statements do not teach a girl to take any responsibility for her actions.”
RIGHT ON RENEE!!! Some on this blog can’t possibly be feminist. In fact I am starting to seriously question the comprehension skills of some people.
I was asked to use drugs over and over and I said no over and over. Those people that asked simply moved on. Even a fool knows a lost cause.
” IT’S THE GIRL’S RESPONSIBILITY TO SAY NO!! For too long, girls have been given the out to not take responsibility for their actions, they are told if they were pressured, it’s not their fault. HECK YEA IT IS.”
Thanks Renee I posted weeks ago about women taking the blame for things and it is obvious that some simply can’t take blame. I plan on teaching my daughter the same thing that you have.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this
“How can a woman NOT accept responsibility for a comment that she might get when she wears a T-shirt like that?”
I agree if you wear a shirt like that.
An important point here is that how many women wear crap like that? 5? WHY IS THIS EVEN BEING DEBATED ?? !!! MILLIONS of women would never wear that t-shirt. MILLIONS of women still put up with verbal harassment.
“I have never had men talk to me the way that you suggest they talk to women.”
lol you can’t be serious. Or, we’ve all actually met the one woman on the face of this earth that has not experienced this wonderous treatment?
Maybe if there are at least 10 women out of millions that can truly say they’ve never been street harrassed, followed or anything we’ve been talking about, I’ll have to rethink my distrust of “those people”.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this
8BTW, women go to strip clubs to LAUGH. Maybe once or twice in their lifetime if that. MEN pay to see women naked to feed their sick twisted sexist male loser urges. “oOOOOOOH A BOOOBIE ! UUUHHHHAARRRRRRRRRGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR MUST SEE MORE MUST SEE MORE ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ARF ARF ! ! MUST SEE MORE, MUST SEE MORE ! ! ! ” “GOTTA BRING THE NEW CLIENTS AT WORK HERE, THEY’LL THINK I’M ALL POWERFUL HAVE A BIG d@#$@#.” “YEA my wife & kids are at home, who gives a SH@#$ about that” “BOOOOOOBIEEEEEESSSSSSSS” ! ! ! ! ARF ! ARF !*
Ummmmm…..wrong again Whiley coyote!!!! That is NOT why females go to strip clubs. Maybe a few but not as a rule. Where do you get your information?
By SatirePolice
June 8, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
Server’s been down at the office all day - seems I missed a lot.
Pointing - in repsponse to you. The situations are not the same. You are trying to make ME, personally, feel GUILTY because someone raped you and because women are abused. You think I should feel BAD about being a man because, according to you, men are inherently violent.
I am not trying to make you feel BAD about being straight or feel BAD about being white or whatever the hell you are.
Learn to discern.
Whiley:
Why are sex offenders ever let out of jail? They re-offend, & re-offend, & re-offend, and murder, all too often
This is false. Sex offenders actually have one of the lowest recidivism rates of all criminals. Please check The Economist from a couple of months ago where an in-depth study was conducted. The rate is somewhere around 5% recidivism. More innacuracies from you, how shocking.
Kimberly, I am shocked at you. Frankly, I’m shocked at half the women posting on this topic - you are all being absolutely absurd. Not a single person has said that being raped or violated is the woman’s fault, or that we don’t care, yet since Whiley appeared, all that WE have heard is how we are all stupid, sexist ignorant pigs who hate women and laugh when you are abused.
When you are capable of discussing this topic rationally, let us know, OK?
By The72John
June 8, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this
Sorry, SatirePolice is obviously me.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
“This is false. Sex offenders actually have one of the lowest recidivism rates of all criminals.”
get the super-duper dumb a* paintgun out now.
“When you are capable of discussing this topic rationally, let us know, OK?”
Sexist pigs throw out words like rationally, hysterical, crazy, so, just ignore “it”. The idea that taking responsibility for a “group” that has gone UNCHECKED & uncontrolled for too long really scares them. All they can do is back into their corner & bark at you to make you stop.
“AARRARARARARRR ARF ARF ! ! oh BOOBIES ! AARRRRRRFFFF ARRF”
By Renee
June 8, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this
I can’t believe that the women on here are calling the men pigs. They don’t want to be looked at as objects. Okay fine, what woman does. But what can a man say to you Whiley, that you won’t feel like an object. Because using your logic, asking you to cook dinner, is treating you like a sex object.
Millions of women buy, wear shirts that say look at this, look at that, etc. The sexy clothing industry for females is not struggling looking for women to buy their clothes.
Oh, and another thing. Women ARE responsible for their actions. So are TEENAGE GIRLS. Say no, say it twice, leave the situation. Being scared that someone might be mad, IS NOT RAPE. Even if he is getting mad, THAT IS NOT RAPE.
You all are taking every situation, and turning it around on the men, whining about how terrible woman life is and how they won’t stop it, but not listening to what any of them are actually saying. Nobody is condoning rape, and even Billy doesn’t agree with coerscion, which I happen to think is not rape and he does.
If you don’t want to be looked as an object, stop friggin saying women are being treated as an objects. You start talking things into existence. Stand up for yourself without whining and making off the wall statements.
Listen to what people are saying. And you all are the same women, who tell BLACK people to stop “playing the race card” as you put it, but you play the damn woman card into the ground.
“men want to rape us, and beat us, all the time, every man does, they need to be contained, we’re weak and can’t stop them” waaaaaa waaaaaaaa waaaaaaaa These men don’t want to rape you and even if you are ravishing beauties, most men on the street aren’t even thinking about you.
By Archie
June 8, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this
I don’t know of anyone that talks to women the way Whiley describes and she’s definitely wrong about strip clubs. As I said before some women are taking full advantage women’s lib. Women are going to strip clubs and tipping and women are telling guys where to go as far as strip-club entertainment goes. Come on Whiley why not admit to ignorance on that subject,heck, I had to admit that I didn’t know that many women were going to strip clubs to look at women. I was shocked at the amount of money Jenna x earned when I read about her in a business magazine. None of us know everything but I see a total reluctance of some women to just say “I didn’t know that”. Obviously Renee you don’t fall in that category.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
For example, the girl in the “Look at my boobs” T-shirt. Guy walks by, “hey, nice t” His friend would have an obligation to say “hey buddy. That’s somebodies sister/mother/daughter there.*
What world do you live in. The woman in the shirt should remember she’s somebody’s sister/mother/daughter. She wears the shirt, yet NOBODY can comment on it, or anything or they are a PIG. YOU CAN’T BE SERIOUS. Just like it’s her free will to wear the shirt that IS MAKING HER AN OBJECT, it’s the man’s free will to comment on it, rude and crass, or not. Geeeeeez.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Jeez. I must have been really lucky in my choice of friends and community. I mean really! I used to be in a bowling league. I go to NASCAR races with my husband. I do volunteer work with a post-incarceration literacy group. Why haven’t I met any of these trash-talking women with their boobs falling out and wang-wiggling men who run around making crude comments about each others body parts? I couldn’t even imagine the areas that y’all must live in for these things to be so prevalent. And I’m not even a church-goer!
By GOB
June 8, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
Whiley - At this point, even if you made a good comment that was thought provoking, no one is going to notice. Your posts are becoming more and more cartoonish, and you are coming across like an outlandish parody of the crazy person that you appear to be.
By Julia
June 8, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
I have to agree with Whiley and Kimberly on this one. (Who in the heck is going to wear a shirt like that anyway?)
And I have certainly heard some rude things from men over the years. Things that made me fearful for my safety. It is very annoying to deal with barbarians like that. SOME men act like the pigs Whiley is talking about…(I said “some”-not all).
And I think the way women are portrayed in society has alot to do with it. Nude women are available at the local strip clubs for a few bucks…
Everywhere in the media the message is clear as to the fact that to be a success in the entertainment industry a woman has to be very attractive physically-where a man just has to be a talented actor/singer/etc…and can be bald and have a pot-belly!
Women are portrayed as sex-objects so it is not surprising that we reap the horrible rewards from this portrayal by society.
Naked women in a magazine at every gas station, naked women at the strip clubs, etc. Too many women are taken advantage of by these perverts who trap women and girls into that lifestyle for the right price.
Whiley and Kimberly-let’s get those paintball guns out and go bust some pervs!
By Renee
June 8, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Everywhere in the media the message is clear as to the fact that to be a success in the entertainment industry a woman has to be very attractive physically-where a man just has to be a talented actor/singer/etc…and can be bald and have a pot-belly!
Women who are not attractive physically, yet successful
Mo’Nique Whoopie Goldberg Ellen Degeneres (well I personally find her attractive) Barbara Walters Martha Stewart Nancy Grace
There’s more, many, many more,
Naked women in a magazine at every gas station, naked women at the strip clubs, etc. Too many women are taken advantage of by these perverts who trap women and girls into that lifestyle for the right price.
Why do you believe these women are trapped. These women seek out this type of employment and actually audition to get these parts. Some women LOVE, LOVE, LOVE showing their body parts, from top to bottom, they love dancing, having sex on camera, etc. And even if they have been brainwashed, nobody;s holding a gun to their head. These women made choices, and many of them are happy with them. Oh, but I forgot, these dancers, models etc, are victims. Yeah, right. They are laughing their cute azzes all the way to the bank…..
I have to agree with Whiley and Kimberly on this one. (Who in the heck is going to wear a shirt like that anyway?)
Many, many women. I have friends who have shirts, heck I got a few with suggestive comments that I wear when I’m not “being a mother”. People wear stuff. They aren’t hard to find and I SEE women with shirts all the time. Walmart sells shirt saying “your boyfriend likes me” etc…. Or “Hottie”….
By The72John
June 8, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
get the super-duper dumb a paintgun out now*
Again, Whiley is only interested in raving like a lunatic, and not interested in actual facts.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?storyid=E1VQTRPDT
This is the article. The Economist is one of the most respected news magazines in the English-speaking world. It is decidedly moderate in its editorial policy, leaning more slightly to the right than to the left.
You can laugh and rant and rave all you want, but facts are facts.
Have you actually posted anything coherent in the last two days, you psychotic freak?
By blablabla
June 8, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
glad to see it’s the whiley comedy hour. it’s been too long and it always brings a smile to my face.
whiley, does it ever begin to register with you how sexist YOU are?
anyway, thanks for the afternoon laugh.
By FatMoose
June 8, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Whiley,
WELL THEN sexist pig, then there should be JUST AS MANY FEMALE MURDERERS, RAPISTS, CHILD MOLESTERS as men. The numbers of incarcerated men & women should be EQUAL then shouldn’t it.
It’s not even remotely close, so your little argument there is nothing but sexist pig crap.
Nope ya dumb sh!t;) Women continue to abuse mentally and emotionally where as men take out there frustrations in a physical manner.
You are the scarriest thing (yes THING - not woman) I have EVER come across along with my brief ex.
You BREED more f#cks like you and fill this world with hate and shame; thereby creating more victims and abusers.
I am calling you out. F#cks like you (not men or women, but F#CKS come in all sizes and your one of them) creat these deranged people that do horrendous things to other people.
You have no business being able to communicate to the outside world - there should be laws that locks sickos like you up.
You are a really really sick F@CK.
By Whiley Fan
June 8, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
Do you feel lucky punk?…Well, DO YA???….Go ahead MAKE MY DAY!!!!!!
The Female Mace Squad is going on patrol!
What did you just say to me you sick little SOB? You want to do WHAT to me??? Come here a minute honey…..(((squirts mace in the jackaZZ’s face))).
I’ll bet he won’t say anything degrading again to another frightened woman!!!
By Mara
June 8, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
Renee - in case you didn’t notice…the example was used in context of describing what might have been meant by “all men being responsible for preventing rape”. And it wasn’t me calling men “pigs”. You can scroll up and check if you want, but I’m pretty sure that the worst I’ve done is refered to rude men as “cads being cads” and “boors”. M’kay?
And unless she had a shirt that said “Say something about my boobs” or “Talk to the boobs” or something equally stupid, maybe the guys should just LOOK at her boobs…now…rant on, Renee, rant on.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
Mara — go check out the local mall or high school. Hell, just look at the clothes on the racks in department stores. I agree with the poster yesterday (I think) who said it’s hard to find clothes that are neither skanky nor frumpy (my words). I’m not saying that every woman who experiences harassment is wearing, has worn, or would even consider wearing these things, and regardless, true harassment is inexcusable no matter what one is wearing. But if my not chastising another man for a potentially offensive comment to Lookatmyboobs is devaluing women, how is she not also responsible for that devaluation since she’s the one that’s making an effort to be objectified?
By The72John
June 8, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
Walmart sells shirt saying “your boyfriend likes me” etc…. Or “Hottie”…
Actually, the Super Wal-Mart where I live has an entire wall of these t-shirts, all mid-riff with the tapered style cut…right next to knit shorts with “Bootylicious” across the back.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
What did you just say to me you sick little SOB? You want to do WHAT to me??? Come here a minute honey…..(((squirts mace in the jackaZZ’s face))).
Yes, because speech warrants assault. Seriously. You need to be locked up.
By blablabla
June 8, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this
You are the scarriest thing (yes THING - not woman) I have EVER come across along with my brief ex. You BREED more f#cks like you and fill this world with hate and shame; thereby creating more victims and abusers.
don’t worry so much, fatmoose. whiley’s “arguments” are useless against aybody in possession of a third grade education. she really poses no harm because she has no influence. just read her posts with amusement. try it…it works great for me.
By blablabla
June 8, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
john, you just admitted to going to wal-mart…whoops.
By Archie
June 8, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
I just posted that Jenna X earns millions of dollars. It’s as if Whiley and her kind just look right past that fact. I don’t believe in too much name-calling on a blog but at best some of Whiley’s posting sound crazy. I had female bosses that were not attractive but they were smart and very sharp so you don’t have to be physically attractive to do well. Most of the time in the entertainment industry both men and women have to look good otherwise do you think LL Cool J,Usher, and others would train 2 hours a day in the gym? I have heard strippers complaining more about the money they didn’t make than the customers they deal with. I was shocked myself to see the young lady’s boob pop out but that was a learning experience for me,as young ladies are expressing themselves with more revealing clothing. The women of my generation(mid-forties) dress differently than younger women and young women have a different mindset. Some young women want to have wild sex, some young men plot to trick men for a drink or to have sex, and some young men are just plain smart,sharp, and independent and they would be offended if you placed the blame on men for every little thing. Renee actually reminds me of the mindset of a feminist moreso than Whiley does. A Renee-type of woman might be hard to deal with because of her independance and her ability to express herself sexually,emotionally,etc. but a Whiley-type might be hard to deal with because she would take the blame for nothing and although a Whiley-type might be smart she would have no common-sense but only be gifted with book knowledge and a man-blaming attitude. One of the reasons divorce is high is because like 72John said you can’t have old-fashioned deference to a woman and yet embrace feminism.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
Mara - my comments about calling men pigs were not directed specifically at you, but I’ve seen it used a lot. If it doesn’t apply, let it fly.
I’ll continue ranting as long as you continue whining. (i’m not sure why you are making this personal but I’ll go with it).
It just seems to me that no matter the situation presented to you, the woman is NEVER at fault. That borderlines delusional.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Well Billy, the point was that a societal shift is needed if we are going to hold all men responsible for preventing rape. I certainly would be open, in the process, to enlightening women as to their own culpability in devaluing their place in society.
And hanging around a highschool looking at the girlies?! EEEWWWW!!
By Renee
June 8, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
Exactly John.
By FatMoose
June 8, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
What did you just say to me you sick little SOB? You want to do WHAT to me??? Come here a minute honey…..(((squirts mace in the jackaZZ’s face))).
Can you say “Latent hostility bc NO-ONE wants to do ANYTHING with you?”
I am quite sure you have no need for mace - your chartacter is so gross no-one would consider you no matter how hard up.
Keep dreaming that so many men WANT you - We do not and are grossed out by you. And just to show how gross you are the sickos are grossed out too.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
john, you just admitted to going to wal-mart…whoops
I’m on a budget.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this
I would give my right arm for a Super Walmart. I haven’t seen one in ages it seems like.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this
“I am calling you out. F#cks like you (not men or women, but F#CKS come in all sizes and your one of them) creat these deranged people that do horrendous things to other people.”
Sexist pigs love to name call any female standing up against murder, rape, sexism, pornography, child molestation, & open verbal sexual abuse. What a terrible thought, all women demanding it all STOP.
Some are terrified that sexist pigs won’t have the right to abuse one day.
I need another paintgun, this one’s out.
By FatMoose
June 8, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this
don’t worry so much, fatmoose
Not worried but GROSSED OUT at the emotionally/character retardedness;)
It is really sick.
By blablabla
June 8, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
Well Billy, the point was that a societal shift is needed if we are going to hold all men responsible for preventing rape.
mara - are you insinuating that all men should be held responsible for preventing rape?
By FatMoose
June 8, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
Sexist pigs love to name call
Look who called names for about a week not you stupid sick f!ck;)
I will bet you are a sexual abuser yourself and have to put up this wall as a denial tactic.
Probably one of those retards that coerce boys in 6th grade, get preg and move to alabama to get hitched.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Well Billy, the point was that a societal shift is needed if we are going to hold all men responsible for preventing rape. We aren’t going to hold all men responsible for preventing rape, societal shift or not, because we do not hold people responsible for the actions of others. Usually. And no matter how much I might like to look at boobs I in no way am responsible for some guy choosing to rape someone, no matter how much or how loud whiley et al rant about it.
And hanging around a highschool looking at the girlies?! EEEWWWW!! Because I have no business being around a highschool apart from looking at girls? I don’t have a relative that works in one, or a sibling that attends one? I don’t attend my alma mater’s sporting events or plays? Nice attempt at diverting attention from the fact that women, oftentimes girls, wear intentionally revealing and/or suggestive clothing.
By Archie
June 8, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this
“And unless she had a shirt that said “Say something about my boobs” or “Talk to the boobs” or something equally stupid, maybe the guys should just LOOK at her boobs…now…rant on, Renee, rant on”
That’s is just plain crazy.
“It just seems to me that no matter the situation presented to you, the woman is NEVER at fault. That borderlines delusional.”
I agree with that Renee and I said so yesterday.
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
” Jenna X earns millions of dollars.”
That’s because there are millions of SEXIST PIG LOSERS who are stupid enough to spend their paychecks to see BOOOOOOBIESSS……”OHHHHH BOOOBIES ! BARK BARK EWWWWWWWW crap now I don’t have money to pay for my kid’s diapers, NO WORRIES BOOOOOOBIES PLEASE PLEASE SHOW ME MORE ! ARF ARF ARF ! ! !”
EXCELLENT MACE JOB WF ! !
“Keep dreaming that so many men WANT you - We do not and are grossed out by you. And just to show how gross you are the sickos are grossed out too.”
Typical come back for Sexist pigs who are maced after following a female while panting like the dog he is trying to tell her why she should suck his !@#!@.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
Renee - FYI “rant” - a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion [syn: harangue, ranting] v : talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner
Now tell me that your posts haven’t been filled with strong emotion and excited expression. I wasn’t taking anything personally. You used a portion of my post and then went off on people calling men “pigs”. I pointed out that it wasn’t me doing that. Don’t know how you ended up saying I was “whining”.
Just because I don’t agree that a woman deserves what she gets if she wears anything remotely provacative, or should expect to be talked to like a whore if they wear something risque, doesn’t mean I never fault women. I simply disagree with you on this and doubt that, in this situation, I would say that the woman is responsible for the verbal abuse.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
One of the reasons divorce is high is because like 72John said you can’t have old-fashioned deference to a woman and yet embrace feminism
Actually, I said one can’t expect old-fashioned deference and still embrace feminism. I have no problem with people being polite to each other and considerate of each other - in fact I think it’s very nice when people are.
My point was that you can’t both expect to participate in a society which is sometimes aggressive AND to be treated like a delicate flower.
Suzanne Sugarbaker: “I hate when men use women’s liberation as an excuse NOT to KILL the BUG. I think the MAN should HAVE to KILL the BUG.”
By blablabla
June 8, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
renee - what ever happened to jbm? i miss her.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
It’s like word-vomit isn’t it…it just never stops pouring out and becomes more and more acidic the longer it lasts.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Typical come back for Sexist pigs who are maced after following a female while panting like the dog he is trying to tell her why she should suck his !@#!@.
Typical comeback for a moron to tell someone else that their comeback was typical.
hehehe
By The72John
June 8, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
Just because I don’t agree that a woman deserves what she gets if she wears anything remotely provacative, or should expect to be talked to like a whore if they wear something risque, doesn’t mean I never fault women. I simply disagree with you on this and doubt that, in this situation, I would say that the woman is responsible for the verbal abuse.
Mara, are you being deliberately obtuse this week?
Saying that you should be aware that the possibility exists that you will be treated in a certain manner because of one’s clothing is not even remotely close to saying that you deserve it.
God, every single one of you has lost your damn minds this week.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
Just to clarify, basically the response from Mara, et. all has been something like this, and I’m going to use an extreme example as metaphor.
Men: The is ethnic cleansing going on in Darfur. If you travel there, you should be careful and be aware of the danger.
Women: Oh my God! I can’t believe you condone ethnic cleansing! Why don’t you do something to stop it! You really don’t care about ethnic cleansing do you! Stupid man!
‘nuff said.
By Brian Curtis
June 8, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
Whiley, your posts have been increasingly out of touch with reality all week, as well as increasingly irresponsible and vicious.
I think I speak for most of the rational people on this blog (even those who have some sympathy with your psychosis) when I say:
Sexist pig—stop being stupid.
Thanks for the entertainment. It’s always fun to watch a zealot rave about their favorite style of bigotry and hate. Usually we have to rely on religious nuts for that, but you’ve done an admirable fill-in job this week.
By Archie
June 8, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
I am sorry 72John if I didn’t quote you just right but I liked what you had to say. I still will open doors and be polite. I agree people should be considerate but obviously some women are not considerate or nice and it’s time to just say that without placating anybody. I too miss JBM.
By Mara
June 8, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
(sigh) Billy, you advised me to go check out the clothes worn by the highschool girlies. I made no call on whether you should be hanging there, but I certainly thought that me doing so would indeed be creepy. I certainly didn’t mean to impugn your character. I certainly never denied that women wear these clothes, however, I still don’t think that by wearing them, they should have to expect verbal abuse. Seems that almost everyone disagrees with me on this and that’s okay by me. But it does get tiresome explaining it over, and over, and over…
Bla - please scroll up to my 12:35 post for the initial post. It was a clarification of what I thought someone else meant by all men being responsible for preventing rape.
‘nough for today y’all. Hope everyone has a fine evening and that the jokes tomorrow are plentiful, hi-larious, and appreciated.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
Just because I don’t agree that a woman deserves what she gets if she wears anything remotely provacative, or should expect to be talked to like a whore if they wear something risque, doesn’t mean I never fault women
Mara, you know that no one here has said that a woman deserves anything. And yes, if you dress like a whore, you should expect that some people MALE AND FEMALE, are going to treat you like a whore. That does not mean that treating someone like a whore is acceptable; it’s just a fact of life that, for the moment, is not going to change.
Just like someone going to an abortion clinic should expect to be called filthy names, just like an Israeli soldier should expect to have rocks thrown at him, just everyone in america should expect the Bush administration to curtail everyone’s reproductive rights, just like we should expect Whiley to end her next post with a reference to paintguns or mace. It doesn’t make it right. It’s just the way it is now, it’s not changing anytime soon, and it’s neither my fault nor the fault of any other men, be it individually or collectively. **IT’S THE FAULT OF THE JACKHOLES THAT ACTUALLY DO THE S**!.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this
No worries, Archie - just wanted to clarify :-)
By Whiley Fan
June 8, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this
I think Renee and John should hook up. (Or have they already?) Maybe they’re “tri-sexual”.
Mara-lay off Renee (no pun intended)…she’s a nice person from what I can tell so far. Get your nose out of the air…if it rains you’ll drown.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this
bla - JBM has had a lot of personal issues going on. Hopefully she will grace us with her presence soon, she would loooove the topic this week, lol.
That’s because there are millions of SEXIST PIG LOSERS who are stupid enough to spend their paychecks to see BOOOOOOBIESSS……”OHHHHH BOOOBIES ! BARK BARK EWWWWWWWW crap now I don’t have money to pay for my kid’s diapers, NO WORRIES BOOOOOOBIES PLEASE PLEASE SHOW ME MORE ! ARF ARF ARF ! ! !” This comment, while funny, is actually sad. Furthermore, how do you know what men say in stripclubs. I don’t frequent them but have attended, and have never seen one man yelling in this maniac type of example given. A man would be thrown out if he acted like that.
Mara - I don’t know what’s going on, I guess we disagree….but maybe I’m missing something. So this is what I get from what you are saying, let me know if I’m wrong or right:
Woman leaving house wearing provocative clothes should not expect to have men/women looking and/or commenting to her. If a man makes a rude comment when shirt says “look at boobs” his friend should step in and tell him how terrible his comment is. Furthermore, said man, had NO right whatsoever to make the comment. After all this defenseless woman did not ask for and is surprised at this type of attention. When teenage boy tells teenage girl “come on, I’m going to get mad at you if you don’t up your goodies” oh and he says it 3x, the teenage girl has then been raped.
Typical come back for Sexist pigs who are maced after following a female while panting like the dog he is trying to tell her why she should suck his !@#!@.
Ummmm….once again. I’ve been harassed by men (and women) but I am yet to walk through ANY city in this country and have a man following me while panting like a dog and telling me why I should suck his d-i-c-k.
This would lead me to believe that either you are in some type of profession that would have a man speak to you like this, you frequent very seedy locations or you are a complete lunatic. Or maybe a touch of all.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Would hiring “slaves in slave attire” ever be normal entertainment for frat parties, bachelor parties, business functions or clubs? After all, the “slaves” are being paid & they don’t HAVE to do it right? Wonder how that would affect overall opinion & treatment of blacks
Whiley, I meant to ask you this earlier. What exactly is slave attire?
By Whiley
June 8, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this
“stop being stupid. always fun to watch a zealot rave about their favorite style of bigotry and hate irresponsible and vicious.”
Excuses sexist pigs use to avoid the real issue. To shut up those who bring the obvious to light. “People’s” everlasting excuses on why it’s ok to discriminate & abuse an entire group.
NON sexist men agree that there is a serious problem & it needs to be addressed so changes could be made. It would make the world a much better place to live in for everybody.
I’ll agree I’m being a smart ARZ now, but it’s only due to the fact that people really don’t care enough to actually do anything about changing sexist behavior & treatment of women.
I will tell you this, “people” who are vulgar, deserve to be paintgunned & I hope women start shooting. We have the right to protect ourselves.
By Renee
June 8, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
I think Renee and John should hook up. (Or have they already?) Maybe they’re “tri-sexual”.
What does this have to do with anything? Why would you be concerned about we do, have done, or what we are. This statement is totally unnecessary and completely juvenile.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
Can anyone understand why Whiley is so Upset? What has gotten her panties in a bunch? Never mind most men have never raped anyone. Tomorrow will she stick to joke day?
By Billy
June 8, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
Thank you, Thank you…
By Whiley Fan
June 8, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
Renee-I just meant that it’s obvious you basically bend over backwards to applaud John over his every post. Bravo John, nice post John, well said John, good job John, way to go John, good point John…that’s why I said you should hook up. I sensed a blog crush is all. Didn’t mean it in a bad way or anything. Sorry.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
Damnable formatting…
By The72John
June 8, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
NON sexist men agree that there is a serious problem & it needs to be addressed so changes could be made. It would make the world a much better place to live in for everybody
Apparently non-sexist men = feminine gay men and asexual non-gay men who promise to never think about sex ever again. Anyone else is inherently sexist.
I will tell you this, “people” who are vulgar, deserve to be paintgunned & I hope women start shooting. We have the right to protect ourselves.
I hope you start shooting too - that way you’ll get locked up and be off the streets. Dangerous people should be separated from the rest of us. Of course, given the level of vulgarity that you’ve displayed this week, I suppose YOU deserve to be paintgunned as well.
By Jack
June 8, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
Shoutin from the mountain tops out to the sea, people everywhere just want to be free.
Sing. it will make you all feel better.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this
I will tell you this, “people” who are vulgar, deserve to be paintgunned & I hope women start shooting. We have the right to protect ourselves. Comma splice! MWAHAHAHAHA!
By Whiley Fan
June 8, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this
Billy, you seriously need to grow up and stop being so vile and sick.
Seek professional help.
By Billy
June 8, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry Whiley Fan. (AKA Whiley?)
I just figured that since I was going to be labeled a rapist or at the very least someone who doesn’t care about rape, I should do what I could to life down to the expectations.
By The72John
June 8, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this
Renee-I just meant that it’s obvious you basically bend over backwards to applaud John over his every post. Bravo John, nice post John, well said John, good job John, way to go John, good point John…that’s why I said you should hook up. I sensed a blog crush is all. Didn’t mean it in a bad way or anything. Sorry
Yes, and this response makes your childish, catty barbs so much more mature. Hm.
Billy, you seriously need to grow up and stop being so vile and sick.
Riiight…because making a relatively clever pun out of the word c-u-n-t is vile and sick, but Whiley, your apparent hero, using every nasty word in the book she can possibly think of to describe men and describing in detail all of the things they have supposedly done to her as well as all of the various violent acts she wants to carry out against them is the mark of a well-adjusted personality.
Maybe you should find a new fan, hmm? I hear that Leona Helmsley is hiring.
By Chilao
June 8, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
thought of this blog last night, drove by a group of probably high school girls setting up for something, something perhaps similiar to if it were the weekend and they had a fund-raising car wash planned, dressed as high school students often dress in the heat. I did a quick glance as I went by but for SOME REASON, did not need to stop and try to rape one of them. LOL
‘Cause their clothes were asking for it, they sure were.dripping sarcasm.
By Julia
June 8, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
Hi Jack! I’ve missed ya’.
I will be here tomorrow for joke day…hopefully can stay for most of the day! :)
Hopefully the topic for next week won’t be so…dramatic!
By Billy
June 9, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this
My compliments, Chilao. I know how hard it is for us men to show self-restraint. I mean, most of us would see that and say, “oOOOOOOH A BOOOBIE ! UUUHHHHAARRRRRRRRRGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR MUST SEE MORE MUST SEE MORE ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ARF ARF ! ! MUST SEE MORE, MUST SEE MORE ! ! !”, but you were able to hold your tongue. I salute you for that sir.
But you did still look at them.
Rapist.
By Jack
June 9, 2006 08:33 AM | Link to this
Subject: Pharmacology
In Pharmacology, all drugs have two names, a trade name and generic name. For example, the trade name of Tylenol also has a generic name of Acetaminophen. Aleve is also called Naproxen. Amoxil is also call Amoxicillin and Advil is also called Ibuprofen.
The FDA has been looking for a generic name for Viagra. After careful consideration by a team of government experts, it recently announced that it has settled on the generic name of Mycoxafloppin. Also considered were Mycoxafailin, Mydixadrupin, Mydixarizin, Dixafix, and of course, Ibepokin.
Pfizer Corp. announced today that Viagra will soon be available in liquid form, and will be marketed by Pepsi Cola as a power beverage suitable for use as a mixer. It will now be possible for a man to literally pour himself a stiff one. Obviously we can no longer call this a soft drink, and it gives new meaning to the names of “cocktails”, “highballs” and just a good old-fashioned “stiff drink”. Pepsi will market the new concoction by the name of: MOUNT & DO.
Thought for the day: There is more money being spent on breast implants and Viagra today than on Alzheimer’s research. This means that by 2040, there should be a large elderly population with perky boobs and huge erections and absolutely no recollection of what to do with them
By Jack
June 9, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this
Arkansas Gorilla Problem A small zoo in Arkansas obtained a very rare species of gorilla. Within a few weeks the gorilla, a beautiful female, became very difficult to handle. Upon examination the zoo veterinarian determined the problem. The gorilla was in heat. To make matters worse, there was no male gorilla available.
Thinking about their problem, the zoo keeper thought of Bobby Lee Walton a redneck part-time worker responsible for cleaning the animal cages. Bobby Lee, like most rednecks, had little sense but possessed ample ability to satisfy a female of any species.
The zoo keeper thought they might have a solution. Bobby Lee was approached with a proposition. Would he be willing to mate with the gorilla for $500.00? Bobby Lee showed some interest but said he would have to think the matter over carefully. The following day he announced that he would accept their offer but only under four conditions.
“First”, Bobby Lee said, “I ain’t gonna kiss her on the lips.” The keeper quickly agreed to this condition.
“Second”, he said, “You can’t never tell no one about this.” The keeper again readily agreed to this condition.
“Third”, Bobby Lee said, “I want all the children raised Southern Baptist.” Once again, it was agreed.
“And lastly”, Bobby Lee said, “I’ll need another week to come up with the $500.00.”
By Julia
June 9, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this
DO THIS WHILE DRIVING
Strange and silly things to do while driving. We do not advise doing any of the below “things to do while driving”, as all driving should be taken seriously. The below “things to do while driving” are simply here for entertainment purposes.
Vary your vehicle’s speed inversely with the speed limit.
Roll down your windows and blast talk radio. Attempt to headbang.
At stop lights, eye the person in the next car suspiciously. With a look of fear, lock your doors.
Two words: Chicken suit.
Write the words “Help me” on your back window in red paint. The more it looks like blood, the better.
Have conversations, looking periodically at the passenger seat, when driving alone.
Laugh a lot. A whole lot.
Stop at the green lights.
Go at the red ones.
Occasionally wave a stuffed animal/troll doll/Barbie out your window or sunroof. Feel free to make it dance.
Eat food that requires silverware.
Pass cars, then drive very slowly.
Sing without having the radio on.
Honk frequently without motivation.
Wave at people often. If they wave back, offer an angry look and an obscene gesture.
Ask people for Grey Poupon.
Let pedestrians know who’s boss.
Look behind you frequently, with a very paranoid look.
Restart your car at every stop light.
Hang numerous car-fresheners in the rear-view mirror. Talk to them, stroking them lovingly.
Lob burning things in the windows of smokers who throw their butts out the window.
While stopped at a light, p** out the window/sunroof onto other cars.
Keep at least five cats in the car.
Root (cheer, not snuffle in the mud) for firetrucks.
Stop and collect roadkill.
Throw Spam.
Get in the fast lane and gradually … slow … down … to a stop. Then get out and watch the cars. Throw Spam at them.
By Julia
June 9, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
WHERE IS THIS PLACE?
A man and his wife were driving their Recreational Vehicle across the country and were nearing a town spelled Kissimee. They noted the strange spelling and tried to figure how to pronounce it - KISS-a-me; kis-A-me; kis-a-ME. They grew more perplexed as they drove into the town.
Since they were hungry, they pulled into a place to get something to eat. At the counter, the man said to the waitress:
“My wife and I can’t seem to be able to figure out how to pronounce this place. Will you tell me where we are and say it very slowly so that I can understand.”
The waitress looked at him and said: “Buuurrrgerrr Kiiiinnnng.”
By Jack
June 9, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this
Good one Julia. :)
By Julia
June 9, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this
CAR COMPANY NAMES
AUDI
Accelerates Under Demonic Influence
Always Unsafe Designs Implemented
All Un-informed Drivers Insulted
All Unnecessary Devices Installed
BMW
Big Money Works
Bought My Wife
Brutal Money Waster
BUICK
Big Ugly Indestructable Car Killer
CHEVROLET
Can Hear Every Valve Rap On Long Extended Trips Cheap, Hardly Efficient, Virtually Runs On Luck Every Time
DODGE
Dumb Old Dirty Gas Eater
Drips Oil, Drops Grease Everywhere
FORD
Fix Or Repair Daily
Found On Road, Dead
Fast Only Rolling Downhill
GM
General Maintenance
GMC
Garage Man’s Companion
HONDA
Had One Never Did Again
Happy Owners Never Drive Anything else.
Hated Old Noisy Damaged Auto
HYUNDAI
Hope You Understand Nothing’s Driveable And Inexpensive?
MAZDA
Most Always Zipping Dangerously Along
OLDSMOBILE
Old Ladies Driving Slowly Make Others Behind Infuriatingly Late Every day.
Overpriced, Leisurely Driven Sedan Made Of Buick’s Irregular Leftover Equipment
SAAB
Send Another Automobile Back
TOYOTA
Too Often Yankees Overprice This Auto
VOLVO
Very Odd Looking Vehicular Object
VW
Virtually Worthless
By Julia
June 9, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this
Top Signs You’re At A Bad Motel
The “complimentary” paper tells you that President Kennedy has died.
The mint on the pillow starts moving when you come close to it.
The “magic fingers vibration” is supplied by giving a quarter to the town epileptic.
There is still some stuff that they put around crime scenes that is yellow
The pictures are not placed for decoration but to cover up recent bullet holes.
You have to wait until the guy next door is done with the towel so you can use it.
There’s a chalk outline in the bed when you pull back the covers.
The desk clerk has to move the body in order to get some ice for you.
The Only TV station you can get is a porno channel with roseanne on it.
The wake up call comes courtesy of police helicopter.
By Julia
June 9, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this
A young man was walking through a supermarket to pick up a few things when he noticed an old lady following him around. Thinking nothing of it, he ignored her and continued on. Finally he went to the checkout line, but she got in front of him.
“Pardon me,” she said, “I’m sorry if my staring at you has made you feel uncomfortable. It’s just that you look just like my son, who just died recently.”
“I’m very sorry,” replied the young man, “is there anything I can do for you?”
“Yes,” she said, “As I’m leaving, can you say ‘Good bye, Mother!’ ? It would make me feel so much better.”
“Sure,” answered the young man.
As the old woman was leaving, he called out, “Goodbye, Mother!”
As he stepped up to the checkout counter, he saw that his total was $127.50.
“How can that be?” he asked, “I only purchased a few things!”
“Your mother said that you would pay for her,” said the clerk.
By The72John
June 9, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this
Thanks Julia - my niece is getting her license in a few weeks. I’ve sent your list to her as things never, ever, ever to do. Ever.
By Kyle
June 9, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this
I really don’t see how you guys managed to talk/debate about this subject for an entire week. It seems pretty simple to me. When a man decides to rape a woman, and when a man actually follows through with that decison and rapes the woman, the man is entirely responsible for these decisions/action - nobody else. The victim may look back and think about what she wore or how she acted, but ultimately it all comes back to the man’s choices and actions. I am tired of hearing criminals of all kinds come up with excuses as to why they did what they did and how its not really their fault. IT IS YOUR FAULT - YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT! In my eyes, short of a murderer, there is nothing worse in this world than a rapist.
By Julia
June 9, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this
Good ones Jack! Especially the Viagra joke!!!!LOL
By Julia
June 9, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
Why are there flotation devices under plane seats instead of parachutes?
Why do fat chance and slim chance mean the same thing?
If you can’t drink and drive, why do you need a driver’s license to buy liquor, and why do bars have parking lots?
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?
How does the guy who drives the snowplow get to work in the mornings?
If 7-11 is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, why are there locks on the doors?
If a cow laughed real hard, would milk come out her nose?
Why is it that when you transport something by car, it’s called a shipment, but when you transport something by ship, it’s called cargo?
You know that little indestructible black box that is used on planes, why can’t they make the whole plane out of the same substance?
Why is it called a TV “set” when you only get one?
Why does your nose run and your feet smell?
When they ship styrofoam, what do they pack it in?
Why are they called ‘stands’ when they’re made for sitting?
Why does one get in trouble for WRECKless driving?
Does a fish get cramps after eating?
By Chilao
June 9, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this
LOL @ Billy - well, I saw movement out of the corner of my eye, and when I turned and looked, there they were. But see, I was not sitting in the foodcourt, looking for cameltoes. LMAO (J/K). And at 50mph, hard for the mind to wander too much.
By Chilao
June 9, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
It’s a joke, guys!,(kinda like an ice-scultured beauty); compliments of my sis earlier this week:
5,000 years ago Moses said, “pick up your shovel, pack your a-s-s, mount your camel and I shall lead you to the promised land.
200-plus years ago George Washington said, “Get off your a-s-s, use your shovel, clear the land, grow plants for camels and it will be the promised land.
Last week the Congress of the United States said: “Si, Amigos, throw away your shovels, sit on your a-s-s, light your camels, I’m giving you the promised land.”
Or something like that.
By Chilao
June 9, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
oh, shoot, the other one is the priest/parrots/hookers one. a repeat here. oh well.
By Julia
June 9, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
Your welcome 72 John
By Chilao
June 9, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
One of Julia’s reminded me of back during those ‘baby on board’ yellow signs in car windows days; Ex’s sister’s boyfriend had mounted a piece of wood against his pickup cab and nailed a doll to it. “Baby on Board”.
By Jack
June 9, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
Why?
—Why do we press harder on a remote control when we know the batteries are getting weak?
—Why do banks charge a fee on “insufficient funds” when they know there is not enough?
—Why does someone believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the paint is wet?
—Why doesn’t glue stick to the bottle?
—Why do they use sterilized needles for death by lethal injection?
—Why doesn’t Tarzan have a beard?
—Why does Superman stop bullets with his chest, but ducks when you throw a revolver at him?
—Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
—Whose idea was it to put an “S” in the word “lisp”?
—If people evolved from apes, why are there still apes?
—Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?
—Why is it that no matter what color bubble bath you use the bubbles are always white?
—Is there ever a day that mattresses are not on sale?
—Why do people constantly return to the refrigerator with hopes that something new to eat will have materialized?
—Why do people keep running over a string a dozen times with their vacuum cleaner, then reach down, pick it up, examine it, then put it down to give the vacuum one more chance?
—Why is it that no plastic bag will open from the end you first try?
—How do those dead bugs get into those closed light fixtures?
—When we are in the supermarket and someone rams our ankle with a shopping cart then apologizes for doing so, why do we say, “It’s all right?” Well, it isn’t all right so why don’t we say, “That hurt, you stupid idiot?”
—Why is it that whenever you attempt to catch something that’s falling off the table you always manage to knock something else over?
—In winter why do we try to keep the house as warm as it was in summer when we complained about the heat?
—How come you never hear father-in-law jokes?
—If at first you don’t succeed, shouldn’t you try doing it like your wife told you to do it?
—And obviously if at first you don’t succeed, then don’t take up sky diving!
The statistics on sanity is one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends, if they’re okay, then it’s you…!
By Julia
June 9, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
Three Americans died overseas in the war. The General of the three was sent to each of the houses to inform their spouses.
He went to the first man’s house and told the man’s wife of the tragic news. She cried for a moment and the General asked her what she wanted to do with his body.’
‘Well,”she said,”he loved to fish so I would like to have his body creamated and his ashes spread over the lake so he can be forever with his fish. “And it was done.
The General went and informed the second man’s wife. She too cried and was then asked what was to be done with his body? “She said, “Well,he loved to hunt, so I think it would be great if we could have him creamated and have his ashes scattered over the forrests so he can be forever with the creatures that he loved so much.”
The third man was gay. The General was a little hesitant but proceeded in telling the man’s husband the bad news. The man cried and screamed for well over an hour and then finally calmed down enough to hear the General’s question.”What would you like to do with his body?”
The gay man reesponded, “Well,my husband was a good man, but he was not very outgoing. He didn’t like to do anything outside the house. He was the best lover I ever had. He was amazing in bed. He loved my chili too. I loved him so much. Well,the only logical thing to do is to have his body cremated, make some chili for dinner,throw his ashes in, and let him burn my a$$ up one more time!”
By Julia
June 9, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this
TEN HUSBANDS
A lawyer married a woman who had previously divorced ten husbands.On their wedding night, she told her new husband, “Please be gentle; I’m still a virgin.
What?” said the puzzled groom. “How can that be if you’ve been married ten times?
“Well, husband #1 was a Sales Representative; he kept telling me how great it was going to be.
Husband #2 was in Software Services; he was never really sure how it was supposed to function, but he said he’d look into it and get back to me.
Husband #3 was from Field Services; he said everything checked out diagnostically but he just couldn’t get the system up.
Husband #4 was in Telemarketing; even though he knew he had the order, didn’t know when he would be able to deliver.
Husband #5 was an Engineer; he understood the basic process but wanted three years to research, implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.
Husband #6 was from Finance and Administration; he thought he knew how, but he wasn’t sure whether it was his job or not.
Husband #7 was in Marketing; although he had a product, he was never sure how to position it.
Husband #8 was a psychiatrist; all he ever did was talk about it.
Husband #9 was a gynecologist; all he did was look at it.
Husband #10 was a stamp collector; all he ever did was … God, I miss him!
“But now that I’ve married you, I’m really excited!” “Good,” said the husband, “but, why?” “Duh; you’re a LAWYER. This time I KNOW I’m gonna get screwed!”
By Julia
June 9, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this
An elderly woman goes to the doctor and asks his help to revive her Husband’s sex drive.
‘What about trying Viagra?’ asks the doctor.
Not a chance’ says Mrs. Murphy. “He won’t even take an aspirin for a headache.”
‘No problem,’ replies the doctor. ‘Drop it into his coffee,he won’t even taste it. Try it and come back in a week to let me know how you got on.’
A week later Mrs. Murphy returns to the doctor and he inquires as to how things went.
‘Oh it was terrible, just terrible doctor.’
What happened?’ asks the doctor.
‘Well I did as you advised and slipped it in his coffee. The effect was immediate. He jumped straight up, swept the cutlery off the table, at the same time ripping my clothes off and then proceeded to make wild passionate love to me on the tabletop. It was terrible!
‘What was terrible?’ said the doctor, ‘Was the sex not good?’
‘Oh no doctor, the sex was the best I’ve had in 25 years… but I’ll never be able to show my face in McDonald’s again!’
By Jack
June 9, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this
Hahahahahahah! Julia. That last one was a winner. (God I miss him) Hahahahaha!
By Julia
June 9, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
Almost lunch time…believe it or not Jack I’m going to Taco Bell. LOL
See you guys after lunch….T.G.I.J.D
(Thank God it’s joke day!)
By Mustafa
June 9, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
How many camels does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Just one, but don’t try to ride him while he’s doing it.
What did one sheik say to the other sheik over dinner?
Hmmm…tastes like Spam.
What did the Arab man say after attending a really bad show?
It was a real BOMB!!!
By Kyle
June 9, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this
since its joke day…..
A MAN boarded an airplane and took his seat.
As he settled in he glanced up and saw the most beautiful woman boarding the plane. He soon realized that she was heading straight towards his seat. As fate would have it, she took the seat right beside his.
Eager to strike up a conversation he blurted out, “Business trip or pleasure?”
She turned, smiled and said, “Business, I’m going to the Annual Nymphomaniacs of America Convention in Chicago.”
He swallowed hard. Here was the most gorgeous woman he had ever seen sitting next to him and she was going to a meeting for nymphomaniacs!
Struggling to maintain his composure, he calmly asked, “What’s your role at the convention?”
“I am the lead lecturer where I use information that I have learned from my own personal experiences to debunk some of the popular myths about sexuality.”
“Really,” he said, “and what kinds of myths are there?”
“Well, she explained, “one popular myth is that African-American men are the most well-endowed of all men, when in fact it is the Native American Indian who is most likely to possess that trait.
Another popular myth is that Frenchmen are the best lovers, when actually it is the men of Jewish descent that are the best. I have also discovered that the lover with the absolutely best stamina is the Southern Redneck.”
Suddenly the woman became a little uncomfortable and blushed. “I’m sorry,” she said, “I shouldn’t really be discussing all this with you. I don’t even know your name.”
“Tonto,” the man said, “Tonto Goldstein, but my friends call me Bubba.
By Brian Curtis
June 9, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
A few travel jokes for the weekend!
A police officer came upon a terrible wreck where the driver and passenger had been killed. As he looked upon the wreckage a little monkey came out of the brush and hopped around the crashed car. The officer looked down at the monkey and said “I wish you could talk.”
The monkey looked up at the officer and shook his head up and down.
“You can understand what I’m saying?” asked the officer. Again, the monkey shook his head up and down. “Well, did you see this?”
Yes, motioned the monkey.
“What happened?”
The monkey pretended to have a can in his hand and turned it up by his mouth.
“They were drinking?” asked the officer.
Yes, the monkey motioned.
“What else?”
The monkey pinched his fingers together and held them to his mouth.
“They were smoking marijuana?”
Yes,” the monkey confirmed.
“What else?”
The monkey motioned Screwing.
“They were screwing, too?” asked the astounded officer.
Yes.
“Now wait, you’re saying your owners were drinking, smoking, AND screwing before they wrecked.”
Yes.
“What were YOU doing during all this?”
Driving, motioned the monkey.
By Brian Curtis
June 9, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
One day at a busy airport, the passengers on a flight are seated, waiting for the cockpit crew to show up so they can get under way. The pilot and copilot finally appear in the rear of the plane, and begin walking up to the cockpit through the center aisle.
Both appear to be blind. The pilot is using a white cane, bumping into passengers right and left as he stumbles down the aisle, and the copilot is using a guide dog. Both have their eyes covered with huge sunglasses.
At first the passengers do not react, thinking that it must be some sort of practical joke. However, after a few minutes the engines start revving and the airplane starts moving down the runway.
The passengers look at each other with some uneasiness, whispering among themselves and looking desperately to the stewardesses for reassurance.
Then the airplane starts accelerating rapidly and people begin panicking. Some passengers are praying, and as the plane gets closer and closer to the end of the runway, the voices are becoming more and more hysterical.
Finally, when the airplane has less than 20 feet of runway left, there is a sudden change in the pitch of the shouts as everyone screams at once, and at the very last moment the airplane lifts off and is airborne.
Up in the cockpit, the copilot breathes a sigh of relief and turns to the pilot “You know, one of these days the passengers aren’t going to scream, and we’re gonna get killed!”
By Brian Curtis
June 9, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this
A police officer in a small town stops a motorist who was speeding down Main Street. “But officer,” the man begins, “I can explain.”
“Just be quiet,” snaps the officer. “I’m going to let you cool your heels in jail until the chief gets back.”
“But, officer, I just wanted to say—“
“And I said keep quiet! You’re going to jail!”
A few hours later the officer looks in on his prisoner and says, “Lucky for you that the chief is at his daughter’s wedding. He’ll be in a good mood when he gets back.”
“Don’t count on it,” answers the guy in the cell. “I’m the groom.”
By Brian Curtis
June 9, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
A guy driving a Yugo pulls up at a stoplight next to a Rolls-Royce. The driver of the Yugo rolls down his window and shouts to the driver of the Rolls, “Hey, buddy, that’s a nice car. You got a phone in your Rolls? I’ve got one in my Yugo!”
The driver of Rolls looks over and says simply, “Yes, of course I have a phone.”
The driver of the Yugo says, “Cool! Hey, you got a fridge in there too? I’ve got a fridge in the back seat of my Yugo!”
The driver of the Rolls, looking annoyed, says, “Yes, I have a refrigerator.”
The driver of the Yugo says, “That’s great, man! Hey, you got a TV in there, too? You know, I got a TV in the back seat of my Yugo!”
The driver of the Rolls, looking very annoyed, says, “Of course I have a television. A Rolls-Royce is the finest luxury car in the world!”
The driver of the Yugo says, “Very cool! Hey, you got a bed in there, too? I got a bed in the back of my Yugo!”
Upset that he did not, in fact, have a bed, the driver of the Rolls-Royce sped away, and went straight to the dealer, where he promptly ordered that a bed be installed in the back of the Rolls.
The next morning, the driver of the Rolls picked up the car, and the bed looked superb, complete with silk sheets and brass trim. It was clearly a bed fit for a Rolls Royce.
So the driver of the Rolls begins searching for the Yugo, and he drives around all day. Finally, late at night, he finds the Yugo parked, with all the windows fogged up. The driver of the Rolls gets out and knocks on the Yugo.
When there’s no answer, he knocks again, and keeps knocking. Eventually, the Yugo owner sticks his head out, soaking wet, and says, “WHAT?”
Smugly, the Rolls owner announces, “I now have a bed in the back of my Rolls-Royce.”
The driver of the Yugo looks at him and says, “You got me out of the shower to tell me THAT?”
By Brian Curtis
June 9, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
An elderly couple was driving cross-country, and the woman was driving. She gets pulled over by the highway patrol. The officer says, “Ma’am, did you know you were speeding?”
The woman turns to her husband and asks, “What did he say?”
The old man yells, “HE SAYS YOU WERE SPEEDING.”
The patrolman says, “May I see your license?”
The woman turns to her husband and asks, “What did he say?”
The old man yells, “HE WANTS TO SEE YOUR LICENSE.” The woman gives him her license.
The patrolman says, “I see you are from Arkansas. I spent some time there once, ran across the ugliest woman I’d ever seen in my life.”
The woman turns to her husband and asks, “What did he say?”
“HE SAYS HE KNOWS YOUR MOTHER,” the old man yells.
By Rachel
June 9, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
I am glad to know that there are some people in the world who know that how a women dresses does not play a role in rape. When rapists are asked what their victim was wearing many can not remember. If clothes and looks have to do with sexual assault then how do infants and elderly women become victims? Sexual assault is a violent tragedy and does not have to do with how people look. For the record I am one of those gals who walk around half naked. I do it because one I can pull it off and two it makes me feel confident.
By Billy
June 9, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this
For the record I am one of those gals who walk around half naked. I do it because one I can pull it off and two it makes me feel confident.
Do you equate a guy whistling at you with sexual assault?
By Whiley
June 9, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
Rachel, keep wearing what you like ! There is absolutely nothing wrong with your body & it’s not a bad thing to wear cute clothes. :)
The “sick” “entitlement” that allowed the settlers to commit genocide against original American Indians is the same entitlement that says I can stalk, rape, abuse and murder women or children. Not many Killers out there targeting other white guys, are there? They only targets are those they perceive as “less” - less likely to strike back, less threatening, less human. It’s a similar “entitlement” that also gives MANY the excuse to treat women they don’t even know extrememly bad.
I’ve yelled a lot this week, but I’m only saying what most all women think to themselves. All I want is a world where women & children everywhere enjoy the basic freedoms that any human being should have-control over themselves & sex lives (without being judged so harshly), education, the ability to support themselves through work, complete reproductive choices; safer freedom to move about in our lives & with more respect, safety from rape & abuse in any form. That’s not too much to ask for is it? Maybe it is.
Does what a woman wears contribute to rape? Absolutely not. Is it used as another excuse for way too many men to do as they please? Definitely.
Does what a woman wears contribute to verbal abuse? Absolutely not. Is it used as another excuse for losers to feel like the big bad men that they think they are? Definitely.
Paintgun is being put away for now. (and I’m out of INK) Hope I won’t need it this weekend. :)
By TGIF
June 9, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this
Towards the end of his golf round, Dave hit his ball into the woods and found it in a patch of pretty yellow buttercups. Trying to get his ball back in play, he ended up thrashing just about every buttercup in the patch. All of a sudden … POOF!! In a flash and puff of smoke, a little old woman appeared. She said, “I’m Mother Nature! Do you know how long it took me to make those buttercups? ” Just for doing what you have done, you won’t have any butter for your popcorn for the rest of your life. Better still, you won’t have any butter for your toast for the rest of your life. As a matter of fact, you’ll never have any butter for anything the rest of your life!!!!! ” Then POOF… she was gone! After Dave recovered from the shock, he hollered for his friend, “Fred, where are you?” Fred yells back, “I’m over here in the p*** willows.” Dave shouts back, “DON’T SWING, FRED; FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON’T SWING!”
By Billy
June 9, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this
Whiley, you do not know “what most women think themselves.” The things you’ve been saying are so far gone we can’t even come up with responses illogical enough to suit you.
All I want is a world where women & children everywhere enjoy the basic freedoms that any human being should have-control over themselves & sex lives (without being judged so harshly), education, the ability to support themselves through work, complete reproductive choices; safer freedom to move about in our lives & with more respect, safety from rape & abuse in any form.
What the hell do you think BC, John, and I want? All that stuff you just said. You want to who who argues the pro-reproductive rights argument among my wife’s friends? ME! Not her, the highly independent woman that she is. Not her friends, all of whom are twenty-somethings who should be very concerned about it. Do they argue for the making Plan B readily available? Do they voice their opposition to abstinence-only sex ed because it leads to kids being unsafe when they do have sex? Do they get up in arms because the fundies are blcoking the HPV vaccine, one which could prefent thousands of women’s deaths due to cervical cancer? Nope. It’s me. The woman-hating, verbally-sexually abusive pro-rapist who has no respect for anyone and should be “paintgunned”.
Yeah. For future reference, you’ll be far more likely to get us to work toward these goals if you don’t accuse us of supporting rapists and such. You want to go after people who don’t respect women? Who treat them as second-class citizens? Fine. But you’re looking in the wrong place. Try the State Capitol, the Governor’s mansion, Congress, and the White House.
Leave us alone.
By Renee
June 9, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
Hey everyone! I’ll be checking in a little next week, but I’m changing departments at my job, so I took a weeklong break before starting my new position. So once I start, I may not be on here as much (until I get settled in). I have a lot going on, a move to a new home, new job, so my life will be whirlwind for a minute. Hopefully I’ll be talking with you all soon.
If anyone ever wants to drop me an line, feel free to do so at Reneesopinion@hotmail.com.
By Jack
June 9, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Rachel, uh..where is it you live? LOL
By Billy
June 9, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
Rachel, uh..where is it you live? LOL
Careful, Jack — That’s there’s borderline rape!
By Whiley
June 9, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this
lol Billy’s yet ANOTHER man who thinks he knows women better than they do themselves. ANOTHER one who SPEAKS for women. Billy are you the leader of your harem? How nice of you to speak for them since you control their feelings & know exactly what they need to think & feel.
The very small circle of YOUNG women you seem to know so much about are NOT an example of the vast majority of women today. A lot of YOUNG women have taken for granted their reproductive rights. They don’t believe “anybody” would seriously take those away. HA ! A lot of women are raised to just put up with it all instead of standing up for themselves. Look what happens when you do !
And I DO know more about what WOMEN think & feel you idiot. A lot more than a sexist pig would be for sure. Isn’t it funny when the sexist pigs deny that their so sexist when it’s so obvious? They’ll go on & ON & ON about how wonderful & how non-abusive they are, all the while putting strong women down for telling the truth & having a VALID reason for getting angry. Sexist pigs are the ones that get the angriest when a woman has an opinion they don’t like. lol
I’ll need to get the paintgun cannon out. Do the world a huge favor.
I’m done with the sexist pigs, rant all you want. It will be easy to spot the biggest pigs, they yell back & attack the loudest.
lol !
Ladies, wear what you want, do what you need to do, go wherever you want to go, & keep those paintguns handy !
:)
By Whiley
June 9, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
Does what a woman wears contribute to rape? Absolutely not. Is it used as another excuse for way too many men to do as they please? Definitely.
Does what a woman wears contribute to verbal abuse? Absolutely not. Is it used as another excuse for losers to feel like the big bad men that they think they are? Definitely.
By Julia
June 9, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this
I guess people are on vacation or not into jokes this afternoon for the most part.
As I sit here and type, my new co-worker is in Coco Beach for 12 days. I guess he struck a deal before they hired him. Good for him. He promised to bring me some sand….:&
~~~heavy sigh~~~
By Julia
June 9, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this
Bravo Whiley!!!
(paintgun in hand) LOL!!!
~~~go ahead, make our day~~~
By Billy
June 9, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this
lol Billy’s yet ANOTHER man who thinks he knows women better than they do themselves. ANOTHER one who SPEAKS for women. Billy are you the leader of your harem? How nice of you to speak for them since you control their feelings & know exactly what they need to think & feel.
I never said I know women better than they know themselves. But neither does your icy, tooth-lined vage miraculously grant you a psychic connection into some fictional collective female consciousness. The vast majority of women aren’t anywhere near as spiteful toward men as you are. My being male does not prevent me from knowing this.
The very small circle of YOUNG women you seem to know so much about are NOT an example of the vast majority of women today. A lot of YOUNG women have taken for granted their reproductive rights. They don’t believe “anybody” would seriously take those away. HA ! A lot of women are raised to just put up with it all instead of standing up for themselves. Look what happens when you do !
What the hell are you talking about? I know many women don’t realized that their rights might be stripped away, that’s why I try to help inform them. Perhaps if you and other rabid phalliphobes weren’t so intent on painting each and every man as a neanderthal, wife-beating quasi-rapist they’d listen to me.
And I DO know more about what WOMEN think & feel you idiot. A lot more than a sexist pig would be for sure. Isn’t it funny when the sexist pigs deny that their so sexist when it’s so obvious? They’ll go on & ON & ON about how wonderful & how non-abusive they are, all the while putting strong women down for telling the truth & having a VALID reason for getting angry. Sexist pigs are the ones that get the angriest when a woman has an opinion they don’t like. lol
You know more? Why? Because you’re a woman? Bunk. You’re too far gone to have any grasp of what any human who lives a functional life feels. I’m not sexist; I just don’t like you. I put you down because you don’t tell the truth. You just spout inane gibberish about how every man wants to rape. You don’t have a valid reason for being angry. You just have some paranoid delusion that every man wants to force himself on you.
It will be easy to spot the biggest pigs, they yell back & attack the loudest.
At last a statement I can agree with. You have been the one yelling back and attacking, crucifying an entire gender for the shortcomings of a few, spewing you vitriol left and right. All. Week. Long.
You need to get laid. Big-time. Better get out the peanut butter and call your dog over to you, cause no man is ever going to want to touch you. Despite what goes on in your deluded imagination.