AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2006 > March > 02 > Entry
Would torpedoing the Dubai Ports deal send the wrong signal to the Arab world?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
For years, Bush administration opponents have argued that he’s mangling our perception in the Arab world. How ironic that they are now vocally advocating action that would make our perception — and our strategic international position — much worse.
I’m not defending the administration’s handling of the Dubai Ports controversy: they should have anticipated the alarm over a UAE government-owned company running U.S. ports. And since I don’t know the behind-the-scenes facts, I can’t defend the deal as currently structured.
That said, however, as we take a hard look at this deal, we must also take a hard look at the terrible signal that scuttling it would send our Arab allies in the war on terror. The tiny United Arab Emirates – dwarfed by and just across the Persian Gulf from hostile Iran — has stuck its neck out time and again to actively help the U.S.. It sends humanitarian aid to Iraq, allows the U.S. military to use its airfields, and has provided its ports as a key way station for Iraq-bound troops. Those actions are unpopular in the Middle East, yet the UAE has done it. They have also cooperated on counterterrorism, including a U.S.-led shipping container security initiative.
It is easy for port-industry novices (including me) to assume a security risk if a Middle-Eastern company runs our vulnerable ports — even though it would not be in charge of security. And elected officials are right to raise questions and educate themselves. What is not right is damaging relations with a key ally just to make political points, when many concerns could be addressed just by adding safeguards into the deal. If we’re concerned about terrorists infiltrating sensitive positions, for example, require those jobs to be held by U.S. citizens.
In a recent interview, John LaRue, director of the Port of Corpus Christi — which handles sensitive military business — provided a necessary perspective. “You have to understand,” he said, “if people wanted to stop this trend they’re way late. International companies have been in our ports for years, and we’ve sought to attract that business. Washington must decide whether Dubai itself poses a security risk, but as far as changing the course of what’s been happening with port management, we’re too far down the road.”
Rebuttal
Why should we worry what the Muslim community thinks? The only public relations problem is President Bush’s. One minute he’s depicting the Muslim world as a dangerous group of nuclear-arm-hungry, backwoods-religious-fanatics. The next minute he’s Jimmy Carter incarnate, pulling out the race card and proudly parading an uncharacteristic penchant for political correctness. There’s no difference between a Brit and a Muslim when managing U.S. ports, Bush argues. Huh?
Didn’t he just spend years convincing us just the opposite?
Admittedly, many security experts aren’t Bush-bashing over the President’s latest senior moment. But silence shouldn’t assume agreement. Many experts recognize there’s an underlying problem: Port security is illusory at best.
“It’s not just who’s watching the ports,” says senior researcher Kenneth Gabriel, from The Center for Integrated Security and Logistics. “The most dangerous aspect of port security is that only a tiny fraction of current shipments get any kind of examination.” A University of Maryland scholar, Gabriel believes technology developed in the next few years will be a key step forward to improve port security.
But renowned political theorist Benjamin Barber examines the issue from a slightly different perspective. As Barber explained it to me, it’s not an ‘us versus them,’ issue, it’s a private company versus public company issue. “In an interdependent world,” says Barber, “a fair amount of security has been privatized and outsourced, which removes from America’s sovereign purview a defining sovereign function.” Private companies are driven by shareholder interests, explains Barber, while public companies are compelled by broader issues, like public security.
So the port management controversy may not be a matter of race or religion — but it is a matter of concern. So I have to ask: Who’s getting paid? Because concerns more respected than my own are ignored by Bush – yet again. The last time Bush disregarded an official warning nearly 3,000 people were killed, two of whom were terrorists from the United Arab Emirates. Now we’re hearing reports the Coast Guard has expressed concern about the United Arab Emirates-based company staking a claim on American ports.
Maybe Bush should take his own tough-love advice about learning lessons – that is, if he can understand himself. After all, this is the man who said, “Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me [uh] — you can’t get fooled again.”
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Renee
March 6, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
Good Morning All. Back from my well-deserved, much-needed, short vacation.
Okay on topic, I don’t see how Bush and/or the Republicans can defend the Dubai Ports deal. It’s very, very fishy, a good business deal for someone or some people but not the American people which should come first and foremost. If the Democrats even hinted towards a “business deal” such as this one, the *Republican” would have ripped them a new a_hole.
By Netbanker
March 6, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this
Hi Renee! I hope the trip to NYC went well. Did you have that slice for me? Looks like my partner and I are heading that way for July 4th. Fortunately the in-laws live just across the Washington Bridge as well as being close to the ferry. I can’t wait to wander the streets, have a slice in a packed hole in the wall, do a little shopping in the garmet distict, see what treaures we can find in the funky shops of The Village, take in a couple of shows, and check out the remodeled Rainbow Room.
So where is everyone on this topic? I must admit I’m torn and can see both sides. We already have foreign firms who run some of our ports today. They are no more in control of the security function than would be the UAE company. The UAE has been a good friend to the U.S. as Shaunti points out, but part of our perception problems in the Arab world is the presence of U.S. troops in that region.
While Diane’s quote “Private companies are driven by shareholder interests, explains Barber, while public companies are compelled by broader issues, like public security” rings true there is also a truth that a security breach or issue could put the UAE company out of business because they would never be able to gain any additional business. Additionally, as they are already allied with the U.S. a failure on their part would likely mean the withdrawl of U.S. support which places the UAE at HUGE risk of retailiation within the Arab world for their relationship with us. The risk and opportunity cost to the UAE of a security failure is extremely high especially in light of their not having an oil-based economy. They do not have that income to fall back on as would other Mid-East regimes. A security failure under their watch would be a significant blow to the UAE.
“The most dangerous aspect of port security is that only a tiny fraction of current shipments get any kind of examination.” If the new company can bring new technologies or abilities to increase the numbers of containers and the quality of the inspections to ports then security may acutally be increased. This is in their best interest and is a technology/business opportunity to grow the company.
“The last time Bush disregarded an official warning nearly 3,000 people were killed, two of whom were terrorists from the United Arab Emirates.” Is it appropriate to place blame for a (or in this case 2) citizen’s behavior and decisions on their country of origin rather than on the individuals themselves? If so, should the U.S. be held accountable for the actions of Eric Rudolph or Tim McVey? If not, why? Is not what is good for the goose good for the gander? What are the conservative’s opinions on this matter when placed in light of their mantra of “personal accountability and responsibility for one’s actions?”
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
So true, Renee. The Republicans would be having a field day with this had a Democratic president been leading this effort. I’m definitely going to have to side with Diane on this one (and I love her brilliant closing… lol).
Having worked closely to politics for nearly 10 years, I’ve learned to always ask the same question Diane posed: who’s getting paid? If you want to get to the bottom line, just follow the money.
We would be so much more productive if we could just judge our nation’s leaders separately from their parties. And, I really believe this is as non-partisan an issue as it gets. I wouldn’t care if GWB were Purple Party, wrong is wrong.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this
Hi all,
Net, I think you’re on target when you bring up perception. From everything I’ve read and heard from reputable and diverse sources, from the relatively conservative The Economist to the relatively liberal New York Times, has suggested that the company is, in fact, probably the best choice for the job.
But, the nation has been conditioned to equate Arab with Evil, so people react negatively.
You can also understand, to some degree, the concern. It’s not that the company itself is a danger, its that it creates a potential “soft spot” in our security. It’s not overly far-fetched to believe that an Al-Qaeda operative could infiltrate the company from the UAE-end and create trouble.
For me, however, the situation has highlighted something else - the constant refusal of the Bush administration to bend or compromise on anything. Instead of listening to the “advice and counsel” of other elected officials, the administration has yet again battened down the hatches and circled the wagons, adamantly refusing to believe that there MAY be room for discussion.
By Renee
March 6, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
Net, I did have a slice (or two) for you, lol. I plan on going back when the weather is warm.
By Chilao
March 6, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
This administration does NOT make mistakes, pure and simple. Makes them less than human, but what can we say?
I actually have to agree with Bush/Feldhahn on the message this balking sends to our Arab allies. Never could have thought I would agree with Bush, but in this case I must. Now the fact that so much port activity is outsourced is a whole other issue, I previously mentioned my disinterest in it even being a British company, even with all our historical/cultural ties. Should we outsource this administration as well? Just a thought. LOL
I think the inability to correctly state “Fool me twice, shame on me” might have to do with hearing too much of The Who under the influence of, to quote Rick James, *Cocaine is one heck of a drug”.
Now aren’t we glad this issue hit the news? I am not sure I could have stood another weekend of the news programs devoting their time to some stupid hunting accident(they happen) and a very very mild time delay in it being reported. And to quote Paula Pondstone, on NPR’s Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me, the victim has apologized anyway. LMAO
By Mara
March 6, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this
Mornin’ y’all. A couple of points on this issue.
1) If I understand the protocol correctly, whenever foreign aquisitions intersect with American security, there is supposed to be a manditory 45-day review. Regardless of who owns the company. The Committee on Foreign Investment didn’t do that. In defience of the law, as I understand it. That’s unacceptable but not unexpected considering this administrations penchant for secrecy. (Sometimes they take it to the point where they are keeping secrets from themselves! lol)
2) The largest difference, to me, is that this is a foreign-government owned business. This isn’t a private enterprise out to make some bucks. I’d be less worried if it was a huge multi-national corporation. But it’s not. It’s a branch of someone elses government. If I don’t trust my own government to manage the ports, why in the world would I trust a foriegn government?
By Chilao
March 6, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
Paula PoUndstone? dang cheap keyboards. LOL
By The72John
March 6, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
What message are we supposed to be sending? If you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours? Let us use your air bases and we’ll reward you with a multi-billion dollar governmental contract?
I understand that there is a certain quid pro quo involved in international dealings, but don’t we have enough cronyism domestically? Do we really need to expand this money-for-favors mentality any more?
Again, I’m not saying that in this specific instance, the move is the wrong one. I’m just saying that we shouldn’t put warm-and-fuzzy make-my-friends richer feelings trump legitimate concerns about national security - in general.
By RF
March 6, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this
Hi all!
One thought, and I will be brief. While we debate the presence of a branch/corporation of the UAE controlling port security, think about this question. How many nations who might bid for the job here would let a company, sponsored by our federal government, manage their port security?
However we do it, we simply have to improve port security. The opportunity is there, the weakness exists, and unless we fix the problem 9/11 will be only the beginning.
Now is the time for democrats and republicans to come together, quit bickering and calling each other names and make some kind of decision NOW.
By Bruce
March 6, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this
The risk does not outweight the gain. If we do not have an American company that can manage our ports then the government (and I can’t believe I’m saying this) should take them over.
By Chilao
March 6, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this
The message here I was talking about was the idea that it is okay for an Anglo-Saxon company to manage our ports, but not okay for an (evil) Arab company. And the state-owned vs. completely private is another good issue that has been raised.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
Now is the time for democrats and republicans to come together, quit bickering and calling each other names and make some kind of decision NOW.
This will not happen as long as the Republican party is so decidedly in-power, or as long as Karl Rove has any influence on national politics.
The uniter-not-a-divider nonsense of the original Bush campaign has been proven to be the complete lie that it is. The Republicans have used so-called “partisan politics” to their advantage. Their idea of cooperation is “Do what we say or we’ll accuse you of playing politics”.
Add to that the loud-mouthed name-calling Ann Coulters and Rush Limbaughs of the world who call anything that isn’t teetering on the edge of facism pinko-commie-liberals, and you have a nation that isn’t going to come together and work out its differences any time soon.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this
Chilao, I don’t really think that the average Senator or Congressman views it as letting an “evil” Arab company run the ports. I think they view it pragmatically: “Should we create a potential vulnerability in our national security by allowing a company that is geographically located in a region that the group most hostile to us resides?”
By The72John
March 6, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
Somewhere in that long sentence I got grammatically tangled up.
“Should we create a potential vulnerability in our national security by allowing a company that is: A)geographically located in a region that the group most hostile to us resides, and B) controlled by a government other than our own to manage that which is already one of the most porous points of entry to country?”
By mathusalah
March 6, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
I know you all are surprised to see me; you thought I had died.
Alas! To the surprise of many, I’m still alive. See, it turns out that the oxygen levels spiked over the weekend, and I rose from the dead! How many of thy friends can say that? This blog thing is really interesting. I’m still getting the hang of it, you see. My great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grand-nephew is showing me how to work it so I wanted to jump in to tell you that its not the UAE thou hast to worry about. As long as thou keepest the homos and baby killers off the ports, everything shall be dandy.
By Julia
March 6, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
I’m a Republican and have been a supporter of our president in the past. But I think this UAE deal is absurd and puts us at a great deal of risk. (How many times did this country come up in the 911 report?!)
Bush is way off base on this. (All presidents are basically puppets don’t you know.) I wonder exactly WHO is pulling his strings for this fiasco?
I’m very afraid that once the deal is done and Bin Laden sets his men into place we will see a tragedy bigger than 9/11. Then Bush will go down in history as….(well, nevermind). (I’m sure you can fill in the blank.)
I’m very disappointed in this man who’s known for his “war on terror”.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
*I’m very disappointed in this man who’s known for his “war on terror”. *
Perhaps this should make you reconsider whether or not Bush is truly committed to the so-called war on terror. The WoT is a joke played on the American people by politicos who are snickering behind their hands at us. We haven’t been waging a real war on terror since the day we pulled most of our forces out of Afghanistan and went whole-hog against a secular dictator who had already acted to banish most terrorists from his nation.
Add to that the fact that one can’t actually wage war on a tactic, and you soon come to the conclusion that “War on Terror” means “Fear tactics used to keep voters scared and pliable.” Or maybe “Smokescreen to obscure the enacting of specific neo-con foreign policy goals.” Take your pick.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this
What would the Dems have done different? What would they have done period?
By The72John
March 6, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
For one, a Democratic president wouldn’t have withdrawn troops from Afghanistan to pursue his personal vendetta against Iraq. Other than that, it’s pointless to speculate.
You are already convinced that Democrats are all wimps, Jack. Why try to change your mind? It’s pointless to tell you that the “Democrats have no ideas” line is largely fictional and has a lot more to do with the fact that the Republican party controls every commitee, and therefore every agenda, and specifically acts to block as many Democratic ideas as possible.
You’d rather believe your comfortable Republican = tough and good and Democrat = weak and stupid line than look any deeper.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this
Jack, first of all, had a Gore gotten the nod from SCOTUS instead of Bush, he would most likely have actually believed the out-going Clintonistas that Bin Laden was the gravest threat facing the US. Barring the possiblility that intensive surveillance of Al Qaeda perhaps detering the 9/11 hijackers, and possibly averting the whole WTC tragedy, I believe that Democrats would have kept their eye on the ball and poured resources into Afghanistan, instead of pulling troops and resources out before the job was complete. Secondly, Gore would never have invaded Iraq on the un-proven claims that Saddam was a terrorist threat. Despite the evolving justifications for Bushs War, there was no “terrorist threat” from Iraq. More aid came from Saudi Arabia and the UAE than from Iraq.
Basically, you’re asking us “If a Democrat had been so arrogant as to alienate most of the free world, ignore the opinions of experienced military and intelligence officers, contravene understood legal opinions to allow torture, abuse, and kidnapping with complete disregard for well-understood human rights, and twist the truth in a way that’d make Clinton blush with shame….what would that Democrat have done differently?”
By Randy
March 6, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
Face it Bush couldn’t win with liberals no matter what he does or did. If he never attacked Iraq they would have found some other reason to attack him. Bush is a conservative Christian, that scares liberals and non believers. If he is right, they can’t be and then they wouldn’t be right with the creator and the consequences(hades) are real and immenent.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Uh, Randy. “…scares…non believers. If he is right, they can’t be and then they wouldn’t be right with the creator and the consequences(hades) are real and immenent.”
Why would un-believers give a rats-a* whether they’re “right with the creator”? After all, if you don’t believe in a creator, then “hades” holds no terror, and your arguement is moot.
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this
Hi, Jack! John’s got a point. The Repubs in Congress don’t LET them do a darn thing — I watch C-SPAN, I’ve seen this with my own eyes. Everyone should watch a lil’ C-SPAN every week to see how these bozos are wasting our tax dollars! When the Dems engage in bi-partisanship support for the administration and the majority, they’re called “wimps.” When they stand up (a tiny fraction of the time) and object to what the administration or majority party is doing, they’re called “obstructionists.” When they support the President, they’re “with us,” but when NEW information comes to light that changes the picture, they’re called “flip-floppers.” Every time they plant a seed, sheriff says “kill it before it grows.”
It is fundamentally FALSE to assume that Dempcrats would do nothing to defend this country, when throughout history, they have done just that. (Likewise, a Dem President also dragged us through the muck of a pointless war.) NO ONE is taking forgranted that we were attacked. The argument that we should engage the enemy with a better plan than this one is valid, since this one isn’t working — to capture Bin Laden, to secure our borders and vulnerable infrastructures and nuclear facilities, or to reduce forgeign hostilities toward us. The argument that the current quagmire is the “best we can do” truly undercuts and understates the abilities of our finest, most dedicated protectors, none of whom have been allowed to make the decisions in this mess.
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this
Randy, if Bush is a Christian, then I am Diana, Princess of EFFING Wales! Bush PANDERS to the “Christian” vote — the voters that hate gays and freedom of personal choice, the people that think Islamic extremists flew planes into buildings because we listen to too much rock music and have sex before marriage. Pandering to this voter demographic does not make one a Christian. Mother Teresa was a Christian: she fed the poor and took care of the sick. Besides his RICH friends, whom has Bush ever fed, loved, taken mercy upon, or helped in any way?
By Renee
March 6, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this
Bush is far from a conservative Christian. He trys to portray that mumbo jumbo to the American people, but I didn’t think anybody actually believed that, Republicans or Democrats.
Jack in response to your question, What would the Dems have done different?. I don’t know, since that situation has not arisen. I think that takes away from the situation at hand. The Dems or anyone else wasn’t given the opportunity to do anything differently. He doesn’t even have full Republican support on this. I agree with what JBM said, follow the money.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this
Look at the Dems spokesmen. Whimps. Mara Dear, Clinton was handed Bin Laden on a silver plater and refused to take him. Why would anyone believe he was a threat when Bill let him go? What you say about what the dems would have done different is theory. How do you know what they would do? They haven’t told anyone yet because they know only to bash Bush. Bash Bush, bash Bush, bash Bush.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
What you say about what the dems would have done different is theory. How do you know what they would do?
How do YOU know what they would have done? You’re making as much of a theoretical assumption as you claim others are making. It’s OK for you to assume they would have reacted one way, but it’s not OK for others to assume differently?
The Republicans would VERY much like for us to forget that Bin Laden exists because WE supported him. In our overwhelming fear of the enemy-of-the-month we allied ourselves with a LOT of nefarious elements. So long as they were anti-communist, they were our allies. We’re in grave danger of the same thing happening again - who is the next warlord that we’ll support until he turns around and bites us?
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
Can you validate that “Clinton was handed Bin Laden on a sliver plater and refused to take him” from a reasonably independent news source? Because what I read was that the outgoing administration repeatedly stressed this impending threat the the incoming one, that IGNORED it:
“Bush said [in May of 2001] that Cheney would direct a government-wide review on managing the consequences of a domestic attack, and ‘I will periodically chair a meeting of the National Security Council to review these efforts.’ Neither Cheney’s review nor Bush’s took place.” By comparison, Cheney in 2001 formally convened his Energy Task Force at least 10 separate times, meeting at least 6 times with Enron energy executives. – Washington Post, 1/20/02 , GAO Report, 8/22/03, AP, 1/8/02
By Jack
March 6, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Hi Sweet Thing. I agree. Bush is wasting tons of our money. That’s what Reps do. They borrow and spend. Dems tax and spend. The reason I voted for “W” was he was the lesser of the evils. I think they may have won if they had stuck with Dean. At least he had passion. They won’t win unless they can give middle America solutions instead of trashing the current administration.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
“Mr Clinton authorised the assassination of the al-Qa’eda leader and his lieutenants but would not agree to any operation that could have killed women and children around bin Laden.” - London Telegraph
Jack, Jack, Jack. Maybe it’s because Clinton is/was a half-way decent person?
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
That’s nonsense, Jack.
What party doesn’t trash the current administration???? Are you kidding me?
By The72John
March 6, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
They won’t win unless they can give middle America solutions instead of trashing the current administration.
On that we agree. However, I suggest to you that the current administration is as busy trashing the Democrats as the Democrats are the current administration. Trashing the opponent is Karl Rove’s main strategy.
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
Great point, JBM! I think the Republicans took power in the 90’s because they did nothing BUT criticize the administration, including dragging the American people through the utterly pointless persecution of a p-nis. And where was the outrage that we should support our President for the “good of the country?” (Geez, imagine what he could have accomplished had he not spent half his time in depositions defending himself against the skirt-chasing stuff!) That blue dress was more important to the Republicans in Congress than dealing with National Security issues — at least it was a lot more fun!
By Jack
March 6, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
You’re right JBM. I want to see some solutions instead. Mara, the Sudan had him. Clinton didn’t act. 9/11 was NOT “W“‘s fault.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this
Geez, imagine what he could have accomplished had he not spent half his time in depositions defending himself against the skirt-chasing stuff
Totally - I mean, he could have bagged like, TEN, more interns! ;-)
By Jack
March 6, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
She could have sold that dress for a ton of money.
By Julia
March 6, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
72John-only ten??? LOL
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, since Bla’s having a baby and all… I think I’m going to leave him alone and have a crush on you instead! LOL!
Okay seriously, I so agree with you on that 1:51. I still wonder what we accomplished as a nation by going after Clinton. I’m certainly not defending his behavior, or making light of his wrongdoing, but my goodness, getting a b***** and denying it? Who WOULDN’T deny it? C’mon… I still have a hard time dealing with that one. I mean, like I said, I’m all for accepting responsibility, and I surrrre hope it was the best darned bj he’s ever had in life. But, getting a bj is not compromising the leadership of our country. Spending countless hours and energy defending that bj is.
By Julia
March 6, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this
Come on folks, if it was “W” getting a bj you know how long the Dems would drag him through the mud because of it! It’s ALL you would hear about for years and you know it.
It will never change. Dems bash Reps and Reps bash Dems. Duking it out like two sports teams. What we need is someone the equivolent to a coach who can send ‘em to the dugout when they get outta hand.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
I think that’s a large part of the reason I refuse to identify with either party. As “kindergarten” as it sounds, I really just can’t accept being a part of a party whose main agenda is to destroy the other party. And, at the end of the day, the real Republican agenda is to make the Dems look bad, and the real Democratic agenda is to make the Repubs look bad.
And that is SO ridiculous. Man, we’ve got homeless people freezing and starving to death, and you want to ridicule a president for getting a bj? You want to ridicule a governor because he comes out of the closet? You want to ridicule a president because he screws up common phrases? Big whoop.
How about dealing with all the uninsured citizens? How about dealing with the education crisis?
I guess it’s just a lot more fun to party-bash than it is to work for the people who you represent.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
The Sudanese offered information about Bin Laden and other terrorists, not the man himself. The information, from what I’ve been able to read, was not accepted based on the belief that Sudan itself was a terror-sponsoring state, and that said info was therefore suspect.
In hindsight, a mistake? Probably. But perfectly reasonable at the time.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Come on folks, if it was “W” getting a bj you know how long the Dems would drag him through the mud because of it! It’s ALL you would hear about for years and you know it.
Clinton = Blow job… Bush = Blow
Which is worse?
By Beavis
March 6, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
Huh huh..Huh Huh…BJ…ha ha
By Netbanker
March 6, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this
I wish the conservative Christians would get their heads out of gay as ses and realize that distaste for the administration has NADA to do with religion and everything to do with how they choose to operate. They choose to be secretive, they choose to attack the messenger’s character rather than address the issue or concern brought to light, and they choose to exclude dissenting voices from whom they could gain additional perspective. I swear to goodness my impression of too many conservative christians (like Chuck, Boscoe, Randy, Zack) is that they believe if we could eradicate gay people and abortions then ALL problems would be solved…our borders would be secure, no lack of health care or insurance, no poor education, no job migrations to other countries, we’ll win the war on Terror and Drugs, we’ll become energey independent, social security will be fully funded, medicare drug programs won’t be billions over the administration’s claims, the environment won’t be damaged by polution, and businesses will never lie to or cheat their employees. This must be the case because they’re just obessed with those two issues as well as the idea that Bush must be disliked or not trusted not due to his actions/inactions, but because of his Faith.
Now that I’ve purged….I’ve seen several comments about terrorists or supporting funds coming from the UAE. Again, I ask is it appropriate to condemn a Government or country for the actions or activities of individual citizens or private organizations? Isn’t that like holding our own government responsible for Eric Rudolph and Jonestown?
What would the Dems have done different? What would they have done period? No offense Jack, but these types of questions are a moot point. It’s all pure conjecture and serves no purpose in discussing the issue at hand and how we should respond to that.
The security aspect of running the port does not fall to the company who manages the movement of the containers and the shipping schedules themselves. This was made clear in the press. If this is the case then why all the discussion about if a UAE owned company would be lax on security when they won’t be responsible for the security function? Also, is an ally an ally or not? As someone else pointed out does it matter if it’s a British company or one from the UAE when both are foreign and both considered allies? The recent bombings in the U.K. were done by British citizens so the concern over a UAE citizen infiltrating the company is just as valid regardless of who runs the ports in question. How do we know that the next Eric Rudolph wouldn’t work for an American company running the port?
One thing I’m finding frustrating in all this is that it appears people are working from a position that if this deal goes through (Mara…excellent call on the review period not being followed..another reason not to like or trust the Bushies that has nada to do with their religion) our ports will be less secure than they currently are. They’re already unsecure and the Administration hasn’t done a whole lot to fix that situation.
By Julia
March 6, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this
JBM-I couldn’t agree with you more!!! Great post.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
I’d take the B.J.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Julia, I agree that the Dems would have a field day if GWB if he was busted getting a bj. But, I will say this: if they did attempt to have GWB impeached for lying about that bj, they would have a lot more ammunition than just the bj to add to it.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
Julia, ask yourself why the dems would jump all over Bush getting some action. Obviously, as depraved liberals, they don’t see anything morally wrong with oral sex…so why? Could it possibly be because these self-ordained holier-than-thou’s are moral hypocrits? Could it be that “pots” get tired of being called “black” by the kettle? Could it be that watching these so-called “compassionate” conservatives rip the heart out of the social safety net is like a sharp, pointy stick jabbing into the liberals bleeding heart?
They jumped all over Clintons sex life because they (the Republicans) denounce extra-marital sex as immoral. The Dems would jump on Bush in the same situation because Bush thinks extra-marital sex is immoral, yet still did it.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
Jack - from WaPo 2001 “The Clinton administration struggled to find a way to accept the offer in secret contacts that stretched from a meeting at a Rosslyn hotel on March 3, 1996, to a fax that closed the door on the effort 10 weeks later. Unable to persuade the Saudis to accept bin Laden, and lacking a case to indict him in U.S. courts at the time, the Clinton administration finally gave up on the capture.”
I suppose that Clinton could have spit on the law….
By Julia
March 6, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
I suppose that Clinton could have spit on the law….
Nahhh..not Billy boy. LOL!
By Jack
March 6, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
I got Mara fired up! If you caught your daughter giving a bj to her boyfriend and she said that it was not sex,would you agree and carry on business as usual?
By Jack K
March 6, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Why do they give us 50 choices for Miss America but only 2 choices for President???
And what happens if you catch a Democrat giving a BJ to a Republican? (Which one gets the bad press?)
By Mara
March 6, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
Jack, what would it matter if I consider it sex or not? Either way, as long as she’s over 18 what business is it of mine?
And it does sort of fire me up when the implication is made that those of liberal bent would as soon see the US go down in flames as they would fight to protect it. That those of us who see nothing wrong with consenting adults having sex are somehow less moral or less American than other citizens. Especially when, IMO, it is actually the conservatives that are destroying the US as an icon of rights, equality, and individual freedom. It does push my buttons, I admit.
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
Jack, being a gentleman, you’ll be obliged to deny it. {;->
By The72John
March 6, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
They jumped all over Clintons sex life because they (the Republicans) denounce extra-marital sex as immoral. The Dems would jump on Bush in the same situation because Bush thinks extra-marital sex is immoral, yet still did it.
Lest we forget, Newt Gingrich, the man who was more vocal than anyone in his criticism of Clinton’s extra-marital affairs, is himself a multiple divorcee who married the assistants with whom he was having affairs. He even dumped his dying wife to marry the first one.
By Jack K
March 6, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
All politicians suck. (no pun intended);P
By San
March 6, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this
For anyone interested, Media Matters has broken down the issue at their website at mediamatters.org: Top port deal myths and falsehoods. (Middle column).
Also, this link shows a letter written by Al Quaeda indicating that they had infiltrated key agencies in the UAE. http://thinkprogress.org/2006/03/01/aq-infiltrated-uae/
I think we have to take into consideration that DP World is a state-owned company, not a private company, as might be the case with Britain. If there are political upheavals in that region with increased terrorism, that could impact our security.
There are also some reports that involve the Carlyle Group and Halliburton possibly gaining profit or power from this deal. Affiliations with these companies in terms of the “war on terror” have made lots of money for this adminstration’s connections, and ought to be thoroughly investigated for conflict of interest, etc.
IMO, the fact that the president is tempted to use his veto power shows that profits are more important to him that bipartisan support and legal underpinnings. King Solomon he ain’t. Now he’s pushing for the line item veto, just when you think he might be getting the message in his poll numbers.
By Renee
March 6, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
I always wondered how Newt could reasonably explain being sooooo vocal against Clinton, when his closet was as filthy as it was.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Mara. You just stated that as long as both adults consent there is nothing wrong with them having adulterous sex. OK.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this
Well, I didn’t want to bring this up, but since we’re on the bj subject…
Some of you will remember that teenager I mentioned some weeks ago, Genarlow Wilson from Douglasville? The 17-year-old who got a bj from his 15-year-old classmate and got 10 years in prison for it?
He’s going to be on Primetime Live this Thursday at 10:00p.
I don’t mean to bring it up again, but for those who may have missed out on the original discussion, you can read the background here. I won’t put a plug in about signing the petition, but if you want to… lol… just let me know.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
No she didn’t, Jack. She stated that as long as both adults consent, it’s none of her business.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
Yes Kim, I would deny it. (Wink, wink)
By Gob
March 6, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this
Jack - Where exactly in Mara’s post did she state she has no problem with adulterous sex?
By The72John
March 6, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
Mara. You just stated that as long as both adults consent there is nothing wrong with them having adulterous sex. OK.
I think that the blame would not be yours or mine or anyone else’s to assign. That is what bothered me most about the Clinton situation. The Republicans took what should have been a private matter and turned it into a circus sideshow. Clinton lied about having an affair with Monica, granted. The fact is he should never have been dragged before Congress to begin with. It was no one’s business but theirs.
And I don’t buy the “moral good of the Country” argument either. Let the court of public opinion speak for itself. Making a court case out of it was as blatant a display of partisan aggression as I have EVER seen, worse than anything than any Democrat has done to the Bush administration.
By RF
March 6, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
I have to agree with JBM about party association. For as long as this country has existed, the party NOT in power has always criticized and worked to undermine the party in power. Nothing new about that! Now we have TV and radio to shout our support and criticism. In the end, any two-term president is likely to end his second term limping. Just goes with the territory.
As to the port security issue, would we be so up in arms if a Japanese company were getting the contract to oversee it? If this were 1942, we’d have a MAJOR problem with it. In fact, we’d be in the process of rounding up anyone who had any possible ties to Japanese heritage and putting them in camps. Fortunately our reaction to 9/11/2001 didn’t go that far, but we do still have a negative perception of the UAE. In time, perhaps that will improve. Who would have thought in 1942 that we would be importing Japanese goods and that their companies would build plants in the good ‘ol USA one day? If this company can do the job, and its American employees can do their jobs, then doesn’t it stand to reason that we’d be okay? Gotta get past the perception, but it will take time.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
John, that 3:21 of yours was awesome… very well said.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this
Hey RF, if there were enough of us, we could start a Moderate party and show the Dems and Repubs how it’s done! LOL!
By Mara
March 6, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this
JBM, Gob - thanks for the block on Jacks deliberate mis-characterization. Since I’ve chosen to be child-free, I’m not sure if I should be offended that he thinks any daughter of mine would have such low self-esteem and such little understanding of honesty that she’d have a married man as a “boy-friend”, in any case. Oh the other hand, don’t it make you want to laugh at the transparency?
By Jack
March 6, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this
“That those of us who see nothing wrong with consenting adults having sex” Duh. How do you read this JBM when we are talking about a married Bill Clinton???????
By Mara
March 6, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
My fictional daughter was giving Bill Clinton a BJ? HUH!?
By Gob
March 6, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this
Jack - Mara’s comment was a direct response to this post of yours:
“I got Mara fired up! If you caught your daughter giving a bj to her boyfriend and she said that it was not sex,would you agree and carry on business as usual?”
Unless you were assuming that her hypothetical daughter was servicing Clinton, you werent talking about Clinton.
By Jack
March 6, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this
Mara. I was talking about your fictional daughter with her UNMARRIED boyfriend. No transparency here. Answer my question. Is it or isn’t it sex? Quit avoiding the answer. (I like how you purposely mis-interpet the question)
We are talking about a hypthetical situation here.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this
My bad, Jack. I thought you were referring to Mara’s response to your question about finding her hypothetical daughter giving another dude a bj.
By The72John
March 6, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
Jack, what would it matter if I consider it sex or not? Either way, as long as she’s over 18 what business is it of mine?
I think this answers your question…
By Mara
March 6, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Personally, I thought we were talking about the hypocrisy of Republicans vis-a-vis their voyeuristic “investigation” of Bills’ sex life versus their own infidelities. I neither condemned nor condoned extra-marital (or “adulterous” for those who subscribe to religious definitions…) sexual relationships. Why? Because unless it involves me or my relationship…it’s none of my business!
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Okay, now I’m confused.
Jack, if your hypothetical question was related to Mara’s fictional daughter with her unmarried boyfriend, then I would have to agree with her. As long as they are both two consenting adults, what business is that of Mara’s (other than the assumption that most mothers don’t want to imagine or hear of their daughters sucking a man off)? How is that her business???
By Gob
March 6, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Jack - I think you are getting confused…Your 2 most recent posts are say:
“Duh. How do you read this JBM when we are talking about a married Bill Clinton???????”
and
“I was talking about your fictional daughter with her UNMARRIED boyfriend….We are talking about a hypthetical situation here. “
Those posts are quite contradictory dont you think?
To your question, there is some room for debate on the answer. Obviously a bj is sexual, but if you really wanted you could make the argument that it is not actually sex. It isnt quite as black and white as you are implying.
By Mara
March 6, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
Alrighty then. It’s my favorite time of day…quittin’ time! C-ya later.
By Gob
March 6, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
And like most everyone else is saying, it doesnt matter what i think unless it is my relationship.
By Gob
March 6, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
“(other than the assumption that most mothers don’t want to imagine or hear of their daughters sucking a man off)?”
And JBM not only crosses the line, but obliterates it on the way by….Just kidding JBM
By RF
March 6, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
JBM- sometimes I wish we could form a party…or maybe we should just HAVE a party. Yeah that’s it!! LOL Gets exhausting watching the two parties we have now sling mud alllll the time. But that’s what makes the system balance and work, I suppose.
I read about Genarlow the other day at the doctor’s office. I didn’t realize how many of the boys got varying sentences for their participation. I get angry every time I think about it. You’d think the boy up in Rome, who was finally freed after appealing to the state supreme court, would have been enough to get the legislature to change the law. But nooooo, they have to go and ruin another boy’s life. I hope and pray the law will be either taken off the books or rewritten (to include punishment for the willingly participating GIRL), or thrown out altogether. I would die if one of my sons was in that position for something so stupid!
Okay, I’ve vented now… :-) Gotta go- homework for my master’s class is due Wednesday and I’m not quite done yet.
Hey Renee, Net ~waving~
By The72John
March 6, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
It’s really not that unbelievable that someone would honestly not consider oral sex to be “having sex”. I’ve seen more than one study or survey that supports that.
Heck, I went to college with a girl who honestly swore that she was a virgin until her wedding night, even though she regularly allowed her fiance to…um…how do I put this delicately…avoid the front door and come around to the back…
By Jack K
March 6, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
Can’t you just see Bill after his daughter gets caught in the back seat with her boyfriend when she was 16 years old. He asks,”Did you or did you not have sex with that boy?” She answers, “Define “sex”.”
(The look on his face: priceless.)
By Jack K
March 6, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this
It’s about time for Jack to be getting those hot flashes isn’t it? With all this BJ talk…
By Renee
March 6, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
Bill Clinton was not the first nor will he be the last President to have extramarital relations, even at the White House. The difference is he got caught. Who cares what he defines sex as, who cares that he lied, what married man wouldn’t!!
HEY RF!!
By kimberly
March 6, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
I think this afternoon’s discussion illustrates one very REAL problem with Americans today: We are COMPLETELY confused as to what is important, and what merits our attention and scrutiny, and what doesn’t.
What consenting adults do with their pee-pees is none of my business and, unless I’m invited to the party, not really that interesting to me. I don’t know why some people are so obsessed with judging that making “rules” about it.
What my goverment is doing IN MY NAME with my tax dollars is something I think I should pay attention to. What they are doing behind closed doors, while telling us not to think about it, is astounding. That people can tell you more about some televised kareoke contest than about when their own state legislatures are doing RIGHT NOW is utterly sickening. IMO.
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
I don’t believe that oral sex is the same as “having sex.”
(And before satan and all his little followers come ranting and raving, I did not say whether I think oral sex is appropriate in extra-marital relationships. Personally, I just don’t find that to be any of my business or concern. In other words: I really don’t give a flip).
By Just Being Me
March 6, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this
RF, the other boys took a plea bargain. Genarlow refused.
I know I’ll get railroaded for this, but I can’t help but to wonder if this would even be a case if those boys were ~ahem~ a little lighter skinned.
And, John, technically (in my opinion) your college buddy was a virgin. Having anal sex or oral sex, or “manual” sex (hehehe… got a kick out of that one in my sociology classes) or any other sex is sexual relations, but not sexual intercourse.
I think a woman remains a virgin until her hymen is broken due to the penetration of a p-e-n-i-s or other object for sexual pleasure (and yes, I realize that I’m not the authority on sexual definitions… lol).
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March 6, 2006 09:58 PM | Link to this
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By Lyrazel
March 7, 2006 07:29 AM | Link to this
Statistics show roughly 5% of all cargo unloaded in the USA is checked through some kind of security. The port authority in Savannah installed brand new equipment to further check containers and found the equipment was faulty and after spending several millions remains virtually unused. I dont think Americans actually give a damn about their borders or the security of its ports. One of the reasons these ports are not staffed by Americans is because foreign competition is able to circumvent American labor for lower paying positions thus lower bids on contracts. No other nation in the world turns over its ports. Having said that, had the contract gone to say Belgian or Danish countries instead of a Middle East operation—nary a word against this sort of deal would have been printed in the paper—and that is the real story—why we dont know about how much outsourcing our government is doing to American borders jobs and defense.
By Jeff
March 7, 2006 07:47 AM | Link to this
OK, so I’m an unabashed Shaunti supporter. Nevertheless, Diane’s FIRST STATEMENT told me that she is never again to be trusted - she speaks out of both sides of her mouth:
“Why should we worry what the Muslim community thinks?”
This from the same person - and ideology - that promotes multiculturalism and pluralism virtually everywhere else????? This from the same person that promotes homosexuality and gay marraige - “different strokes for different folks”. This from the same person that says whites need to be more sensitive to black concerns. This from the same person that promotes religious practices only in private - NEVER in public? This from the same person that claims the phrase “Under God” shoudl be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and that the Ten Commandments should never be shown in the courthouse? (BTW: An aside (OFF TOPIC, but relates to my last statement): Any liberal needs to take a trip up to Cartersville, GA. Just outside Bartow County’s premier park - where much of the community sports are played, and along a major route to three different schools - is a fairly large display of the Ten Commandments. And legally it is untouchable. It just so happens that just across the street from the main entrance to the park sits a small church that has been there all of my 23 yrs that I recall. And on that church’s property - you guessed it - sits this large stone display of the Ten Commandments.)
Point being: The very deologue for multiculteralism and tolerance is here showing her very INtolerance and UNIculturalist tendencies…
By The72John
March 7, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this
Point being: The very deologue for multiculteralism and tolerance is here showing her very INtolerance and UNIculturalist tendencies
I think you mean ideologue…
That aside - bad logic, unsurprisingly. Obviously what Diane is saying here is not that we should disregard the Muslim community in general, but that we shouldn’t put hurt feelings above issues of national security.
No one’s freedoms or civil rights are being trampled by those resisting the port deal. No one’s faith is being condemned.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this
And on that church’s property - you guessed it - sits this large stone display of the Ten Commandments
Just wanted to comment on this. Not trying to get off topic, but I couldn’t let this one go.
What you, and most other Fox-news watching, Rush-Limbaugh-listening conservative automatons, don’t understand is that NO ONE has an objection to a church displaying the 10 Commandements. The ONLY objection that anyone has is to the display of 10 Commandments on GOVERNMENTAL property.
In fact, that bastion of liberty that knee-jerk conservatives assault so regularly, the ACLU, would DEFEND attempts to remove that display from church property with exactly the same vigor that they assist those trying to remove similar displays from courthouses.
No matter how much you would LIKE to believe that religion is under assault, it simply isn’t true. In fact, here’s a little surprise for you, ok…lean in real close, ‘cause I’m going to whisper it to you…ready? most liberals, like most other americans, are religious people…it’s true
By Renee
March 7, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this
That aside - bad logic, unsurprisingly. Obviously what Diane is saying here is not that we should disregard the Muslim community in general, but that we shouldn’t put hurt feelings above issues of national security.
Well said John!
You also are correct with the 10 commandments. Private property = no problem; Goverment property = problem.
By RF
March 7, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this
JBM- I wonder the same thing…how ironic it is that we haven’t read stories of the star quarterback getting caught with a cheerleader in a compromising position when the two kids are of any other ethnic background…that’s just kids being kids, or so seems our general social perception. I’m waiting to see Dateline and see what the media spin on all this is. We’re sadly still a long way from overcoming stereotypes, and it hurts to see that.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this
John, Renee, well said to der vingnut Jeff. Unfortunately, to paraphrase a popular saying…you can lead a Republican to the truth, but you can’t make ‘em believe it. (sigh)
Hey Jeff, what exactly do you mean when you say …promotes homosexuality and gay marraige.? Are you seriously convinced that the gays are out looking for converts?! If gay marriage does become the “norm”, does that mean heterosexuals will be stigmatized and the boy/girl paradigm will cease to exist?
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 08:59 AM | Link to this
Is that a record yesterday? Topic to Clinton/Lewinsky in about 1/2 a day? LOL (Rhetorical), but did you hear Leno last night? Seems there will be 25 interns at the new Clinton Library, Leno questioned how they would all fit.
Stat just heard: only EIGHT of the over 100 major U.S. ports are managed by American companies currently.
By candide
March 7, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this
Whatever helps to destroy the Bush presidency is fine with me. He is evil and must be destroyed.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this
Stat just heard: only EIGHT of the over 100 major U.S. ports are managed by American companies currently.
Again, I don’t think the real concern is foreign management of US Ports - it’s the management of US ports by a company owned by the government of a nation with questionable affiliations.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
EIGHT? EIGHT?! I know conservatives think out-sourcing is a great thing, but c’mon….this has got to be some kind of joke. Right?
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this
Sad news about Dana Reeve. How tragic is that?
RF, I’m sure the media will deal with the race issue. They’d be remiss if they didn’t. Although it is more a matter of flawed law than anything else, there still remains an issue of race to be discussed. I’m sure you and I agree that the law needs to be changed regardless, but no one can ignore that this law doesn’t seem to be applied to non-blacks…
Standing behind John pointing over his shoulder Yeah!!! Who cares if the Ten Commandments is on a church property??? Duhhhh! The whole argument was about the Ten Commandments being on gov’t property, silly head.
You’re making it sound like liberals want to hide any semblance of religion from the masses, and that’s simply ridiculous. It’s ludicrous. For as long as I can remember, the Democrats have been arguing about not having religion imposed on the general public, who may or may not be believers.
And, what reasonable American wouldn’t oppose? Our nation doesn’t have an “official” religion, so if we allow the TC on governmental buildings, then shouldn’t we also allow teachings from the Koran, and Buddhist texts and Sikh texts and Hindu texts, etc.????
C’mon Jeff. You can do better than that.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this
To be fair Mara, I’d have to wonder if all this outsourcing just started with GWB???
By Mara
March 7, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this
John, I agree that the real concern isn’t nationality (or ethnicity) but actual ownership of the company. It’s owned by a foreign government. A government that is, er, a bit informal regarding financial paperwork and disclosure. And the Treasury has given them permission to keep what little documentation they do have…off shore, away from any (possible) pesky judicial review. Hmmmm. It does make one wonder.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this
The fact of the matter is that there really aren’t that MANY port management companies and most of them are foreign…in this case, Americans aren’t losing jobs, because the companies.
Port management is very capital-intensive - I’ve read that ONE container crane costs between 15 and 20 million dollars. It’s nigh impossible for a start-up company to acquire that kind of capital, and unlikely that an existing company would diversify into such an established industry.
By Renee
March 7, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this
I was really sad to hear about Dana Reeve, as well as Kirby Puckett (somebody please let JBM know who he is).
JBM Excellent comments 9:12 as well as 9:14.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this
That stat was on NPR this morning, in a story about the legislation being proposed in Congress, both houses, to have ports and other undefined critical infrastructure, be US operated. and the story was pointing out all the places that would have to be sold, since they are now run by NON-US companies. Seems Singapore runs operations at Port of Los Angeles.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Yeah, JBM, I know that GWB didn’t start the outsourcing trend, but it is his administration that crows about what a great thing it is. While the situation isn’t his fault, per se, his administration does seem unnaturally upbeat about coming up (an estimated…)7 million jobs short of what’s needed just to keep up with population growth. (shrug)
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
Outsourcing began with Bush Senior’s NAFTA trade pact. Morons I worked with blamed Clinton for that, but it was a done-deal ready to be signed into law, the minute he became President, since George Sr had worked very hard to get it through Congress. Never understood how Clinton was being blamed, I figured my moronic coworkers at the time heard it on Rush or something. LMAO
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 09:36 AM | Link to this
I understand Mara, and I find it frustrating too. I just thought it sounded like you were blaming conservatives… From John’s 9:19 (and let me be the first to admit I know little, if anything, about this subject), it seems that we have very little choice in outsourcing our ports, so I’m not sure if 8 out of 100 is that unreasonable. I mean, who wouldn’t prefer 80 out of 100, but is that even possible?
Renee - I kinda know who Puckett is… shrug I glanced through an article this morning when I remembered that you mentioned his name yesterday… lol. I still think Dana’s is sadder! LOL!
By RF
March 7, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this
Mara- I have to agree with your 9:15. Outsourcing is one thing, but allowing a company to work and remain immune to any US standards of judicial review opens up alllll kinds of possibilities for shady activities, regardless of which nation it is.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
So what the situation looks like so far is:
1) Legal procedures were not followed by the Foriegn Investment panel prior to allowing the private English company currently running port operations to include that contract as an asset for sale to the UAE company, and has waived some requirements commonly included on any foreign-company contract, including fiscal and person.
2) The Dubai Ports group is owned by the Dubai ruling family, i.e. the Dubai government.
3) The administration did not require Dubai Ports to keep copies of business records on U.S. soil, where they would be subject to court orders. It also did not require the company to designate an American citizen to accommodate U.S. government requests. Outside legal experts said such obligations are routinely attached to U.S. approvals of foreign sales in other industries.
4) There is no viable American company to turn to even if this port management company is deemed unacceptable.
what’d I miss…oh, yeah.
5) Bush and most of his cronys didn’t even know about the deal before hearing about it in the news.
OK. That’s it…I think…
By The72John
March 7, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this
The thing about outsourcing is that it’s no one’s fault, any more than, say, the Industrial Revolution. It’s a natural evolution of industry and business.
As with MOST of my disagreements with the Bush Administration, its the RESPONSE to the phenomenon that’s the problem. Contrary to popular opinion, a sitting president has very little to do with economic conditions…one might as well try to control the weather. However, a President CAN do things to mitigate problems.
Instead of saying “OK…we understand that outsourcing is an attractive option. If you want to take jobs out of the US, you’re going to have to compensate us somehow…” the Bush administration has made it MORE attractive for companies to outsource, giving tax breaks, incentives, making it easy to repatriate funds…
Globalization is going to happen. In order to compete with industrail juggernauts like China we’re going to have to re-evaluate how our economy works, just like the country has done in the past when global paradigm shifts occured. But we could REALLY use some help in slowing down the change to give us time to figure out what to do.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
Kimberly…in regard to your 4:20pm post yesterday…ROCK ON GIRL!!
Morning kids. Running between meetings.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this
John, total agreement here re the fault finding. Also agree about the response. It’s not so much about outsourcing itself, most folks understand that business is business. It’s the totally tone-deaf response from the administration. While telling us that outsourcing is a good thing, that retraining for the future is the ticket, they then go ahead and give those outsourcing companies tax breaks, subsidies and other incentives whilst at the same time they have cut funding for Community colleges and Vo-techs. They have raised the interest on government provided student loans, and have cut funding for Pell grants. It just seems, (as do most things Republican, lol) to be slightly hypocritical and ineffective.
By Renee
March 7, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
Okay we have exhausted this subject.
Choose 1 of the 3 for the next subject. (ya’ll know the deal)
By Gob
March 7, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
Has anyone seen the article on CNN about the family that is protesting military funerals…Classy…
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
I was reading an article recently comparing today’s China with where we were 20 years or so ago. Good jobs a dime a dozen, workers stay anywhere from a few months to only a few years, since a better job is just down the street, and way too much of the growing economy is centered on consumer goods for export. And non-Chinese consumers can only have so much cheap goods. Anyway, the article felt like China itself could be rather precarious, economically, in just a few short years.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this
Speaking of Gay Bashing, how about all these police, probably on overtime, that have to escort funerals of soldiers due to that GodHatesFags crowd, blaming the US for the soldier’s death. Incredible.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
The article also mentioned rapid and unplanned urban growth. What took many years in this country is virtually happening overnight in China, unchecked.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
Gob, that’s Fred Phelps of Westboro (Kansas) Baptist Church you’re refering to. He and his “congregation” are the same freaks that went to Mathew Shepards funeral holding up signs that said “God Hates F*” and the like. Now, normally I don’t disrespect folks for their religeon, but this group…sheeesh. Disrespect is the least of what they deserve.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
Renee, looks like we get to discuss gay bashing and religeon :^)
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
I often wonder how much impact outsourcing is really having. The numbers do sound large when it comes to layoffs because they are in the thousands, but are relatively small when compared to total employment in the U.S.. keep in mind that government measure of a small business is:
500 employees for most manufacturing and mining industries 100 employees for all wholesale trade industries $6.5 million for most retail and service industries $31 million for most general & heavy construction industries $13 million for all special trade contractors $0.75 million for most agricultural industries
The apparent truth of the matter is that outsourcing will continue until we reach some type of equilibrium. Where I see a failure in the U.S. is that outsourcing or movement of jobs has always occurred (steel industry, garment industry) but we’ve typically been a technological leader so we had ways to replace the lost industries. We do not seem to be in as strong a position going forward to start replacing the technology jobs being lost today.
And this is where I end up at odds with the Republican party and find numerous ironies. One of the very best opportunities for us in quite a number of ways is the development of Alternative, Renewable Energy. This area could allow our country to become energy independent (which is readily acknowledged as needed if only to reduce the influence of the Mid-East in world politics), but it also provides opportunities to become an exporter of energy or technology thus replacing lost jobs or GNP. This is where the irony starts to kick in…we have a party in control who decries the “elitist intelligentsia and academics” but we need more people educated in math and science to make energy independence possible. The controlling party recognizes this need, but has actively worked to suppress scientific research that does not meet their agenda and decrease science funding thus demoralizing and de-motivating the scientific community that will solve the problems to enable energy independence. The controlling party’s “Energy Plan” provides large tax incentives for energy companies yet does not tie them directly to alternative energy initiatives or research somewhat perpetuating the energy status quo. If Brazil can become oil independent why can’t the great U.S.?
Environmental sciences are another great opportunity arena for export to the developing world. India and China with their more lax environmental protections are prime targets to import these technologies as their populations and press more strongly and frequently raise the issues of the impact on the populations of exposure to toxic substances that are by-products of industry. (They’re about 30 years behind us in this respect…think Love Canal and the recent toxic spill into the river in China). Once again we need a population with stronger math and science skills to grow these industries so see the ironies above about education. Not to overlook a few more ironies in the educational realm there is increased funding but that is going for abstinence sex education rather than biological sciences-based sex education and standardized testing rather than effective educational methods. And the final irony with the environmental science opportunities is that the current administration is busy dismantling or weakening protections that have cleaned up our air and water and would ensure their continued health.
By Jane E. Koch
March 7, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this
I sent this email today to South Dekato’s Governor Mike Round. I am emtremely disappointed in his recent decision to ban legal abortion in the State of South Dekota. I dread that his action is just the beginning of a very long and arduous fight to maintain the right of a woman! (see e-mail below to Governor Rounds). Thank you for your time.
Dear Governor Rounds, I must express my exteme disappointment regarding your vote to ban abortion in your state. How very foolish and self-centered you acted. It is A WOMAN’S RIGHT to obtain an abortion if ever needed. How silly of you to think as a male you should interpret a woman’s thoughts on such a very private and personal decision. This decision should ONLY be made by women. Your thoughts seem to be revolving around a more archaic time. I hope you reconsider and move forth in the new century. How dreadful to think of the era of COAT HANGERS AND DEATH BY INFECTION AND LOSS OF BLOOD when desperate woman revert to “butcher abortions”.
Thank you, Jane E. Koch Tucker, GA
By lozen
March 7, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
Good morning everyone. Don’t know much about this topic so I’m reading and learning from all of you knowledgeable folks.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
I was interrupted when typing my last post and forget to follow up the the small businesses definition with the fact that MOST employment in the U.S. falls to small businesses and these are generally not the ones who are outsourcing jobs. That said, there is a plethora of challenges facing businesses who meet the Small Biz criteria with the primary being rising health care costs.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Hi Lozen.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this
Industry and Big Business trump everything for the current administration. If any given problem has three solutions - I’m loosely thinking in game theory terms here - with solution A benefiting primarily bus/ind, solution B benefiting primarily the other side of whatever the issue is, or solution C representing a compromise between the two, the current administration has EXCLUSIVELY gone with Solution A.
The Republican party is so firmly in the pocket of the extremely wealthy that they have forgotten that a consumer-based economy like ours actually needs consumers.
The gap between the rich and the not-rich continues to increase - despite what the spin doctors from the White House want you to believe that is NOT the sign of a healthy economy. A collapsing middle class helps no one.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
NetB, Hey. Wouldn’t small businesses have a better chance to survive, thrive, and increase employment if the cost of health insurance weren’t so criminally high? I seem to recall that right-wingers tout this as a reason to say “Screw health care reform! Every man for himself,” while left-wingers tend to push for government intervention to stop the price gouging and waste. What do you think?
By Jack
March 7, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
Hi Kim. We could start by castrating all of the lawyers.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this
Hi Jack. The thing about lawyers is, everyone hates them until they NEED one. Then they want Superman.
Today’s lesson: Lawyers are NOT the reason health insurance costs are criminally high. Your insurance company wants you to believe that, because they have no other way to justify raising your premiums & deductibles, denying claims, and covering less while their executives reward themselves with humongous bonuses that they plant in their offshore accounts. Also, historically, insurance companies invest premiums to grow the money for payouts like the massive losses of recent hurricane seasons. When interest rates are low, their return is lower, so they BLAME lawyers and fight for “tort reform” in state legislatures to prevent legitimate victims from suing. But after this legislation is passed taking away YOUR right to a jury, they do not bother to lower the criminally high rates they charge the doctors, who pass the costs on to you & me.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
A collapsing middle class helps no one. This is a very key point. If the population can’t afford to purchase the goods produced by the wealthy then their wealth declines or their businesses fail. It seems as if the wealthy have lost sight of that relationship. There is the appearance of an ideology to capture as many dollars for themselves as quickly as they can rather than sharing that wealth (consider wage stagnation over the past 10 years despite amazing increases in productivity) to maintain a stable population of consumers. It is the difference between short-term growth of revenue rather than growing recurring revenue. My own division is going through this shift at the moment and I can tell you it can be a painful transition.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this
Absolutely correct - so-called “frivolous” law suits account for a fraction of health care costs. However, the conservatives who are concerned with defending ONLY the insurance and pharmaceutical companies continue to use this fear tactic to whip up sympathetic support from the very people who will be negatively affected by the so-called tort “reform” legislation.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
The insurance companies have the following full-time representation in Washington and in the state legislatures: AIA (www.aiadc.org) HIAA (dot org) PCIAA (dot net) ARIA (dot org) The PIAA (dot org) IIAA (dot org) and many more. They draft bills, meet with legislators, buddy up to committee members, and argue THEIR case daily against anything that might take a dime out of their pockets.
Who represents YOU? Your Congressman? HAHAHAHAHA! Riiiiight. Sure he does. HAHAHA!
By Jack
March 7, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
How bout this. AIDS meds run about 3k to 4k per month. If they came up with a cure, why should they put it out there? They can continue to make mega-bucks to keep folks alive knowing they have a cure ready when the time is right.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this
According to MedPAC (a congressional advisory committee on medical insurance/tort reform) Physicians protest the malpractice payouts because their insurance premiums have risen recently. They say that such premiums will drive them out of business, make it unprofitable for them to work, and that the government should step in and institute a limit on what malpractice payments can be.
Yet the facts tell a different story. It is true that insurance premiums for doctors have gone up: a nationwide average was 11.3 percent last year. But the increase in health insurance premiums for individuals paying for their regular medical coverage was 15 percent. This is not a problem for doctors: It is a problem of insurance companies. A significant portion of the income of such companies comes from their investment: As the Physician Insurers Association of America admits, in 1995, investment was responsible for 47 percent of their income.
In 2001, with the stock market beginning its dive, investment accounted for only 31 percent. In short, insurance companies are making less money and so are charging everyone — not just doctors — more.
In any case, malpractice insurance is not a significant cost for doctors. MedPAC has found that the average proportional payout for insurance today, with these supposedly obscenely high premiums, is 3.2 percent of their business costs — less than they pay for office rent.
So the so-called “tort reform” is gonna end up having little or no impact on medical costs. Regulating the insurance industry though, that has a real chance of making a difference. Not that it’ll ever happen, though.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
I’m playing “Devil’s Advocate” here Jack, but why shouldn’t they keep the cure under wraps? After all, they are a for-profit business. And as a business, don’t they have a responsiblity to their shareholders to maximize that profit? Wouldn’t withholding it also make them a big, big hit with those on the religeous right who believe that AIDS is gods way of saying he hates gays?
By Jack
March 7, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
AIDS is an equal opportunity killer. Those who believe that it is strictly a “gay” disease should be flogged. It does make good business sense to with-hold the cure. Those that do will get it somehow. Karma needs to work on them.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this
Good point, Jack! Why would they cure something they can make steady dough off indefinitely. What was the last thing they actually CURED? Heck, they can’t even cure athlete’s foot!
Thanks for the stats, Mara. The only thing that has truly diminished is the RIGHT of a citizen to use our court system and a jury of peers to seek justice or compensation.
Meanwhile, small businesses and their employees struggle. People often stay in jobs they hate in big corporations because they need the “benefits” for which they pay a portion of every check, and their entrepreneurial spirit is crushed under the fear of getting sick.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 01:32 PM | Link to this
I’m playing “Devil’s Advocate” here Jack, but why shouldn’t they keep the cure under wraps? After all, they are a for-profit business. And as a business, don’t they have a responsiblity to their shareholders to maximize that profit? Wouldn’t withholding it also make them a big, big hit with those on the religeous right who believe that AIDS is gods way of saying he hates gays?
They may be a for-profit company, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t operate according to a mission statement or philosophy.
For instance, I work for a for-profit company specializing in financial service products that are primarily designed for long-term estate planning and generational wealth transfer rather than short-term gains. A significant percentage of the owners of our products are retirees.
Now, we could act purely from the profit motive, or we can do as we do, and balance profit with our mission. Nothing says one can’t be profitable AND conduct business with integrity and honesty at the same time.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…small businesses would have a increased opportunities should health care costs decrease or at least stabilize. There are a number of forces at play in that equation which is quite complex. U.S. businesses are not on a level playing field with the majority of industrialized nations because the other countries offer some form of a guaranteed minimum health coverage that we do not. The businesses operating in those nations do not have the same burden or drain on profit so even if wages were equal U.S. companies would still be less profitable. My guess is that health care reform (in whatever form that comes and whatever form it takes) will be primarily driven not by what is right for citizens (although it will be sold to the public in this fashion) but what will keep U.S. businesses competitive or profitable in a global market. Business (big surprise given the purchase of Washington, D.C.) will receive attention that citizens can not.
As I stated this is a very complex equation. While health care is not a guaranteed right it is in the best interest of the nation to have a relatively healthy population for a number of reasons including: lower overall cost of health care(i.e. the more healthy people the lower cost per person for illness or care) , a healthy population can better fight off an epidemic or pandemic (which have myriad negative implications itself), illness reduces economic competitiveness through lost productivity, illness increases reliance on governmental social support programs etc. My impression is that our politicians and the general population do not include the cost of lost opportunity or improved efficiency when considering expense or impact of any particular initiative/program. In more practical terms we need to start thinking along the lines of:
Is it worth $100 Billion to provide preventive health care to the 45 million uninsured Americans if it means we save $40 Billion in emergency room costs from unpaid bills that in turn are covered through taxes, ensure that in a time of crisis emergency rooms will have free staff to care for the injured (see current articles on how overloaded ER’s are now), we can prevent $50 billion in lost business revenue due to the uninsured missing work, and we won’t spend $10 billion on welfare/food stamps/medicare to support families who lost jobs due to health issues that could have been prevented, and we wouldn’t lose $5 Billion in income taxes from lost wages?” I completely made those numbers up, but my point is that we focus on the $100 Billion cost, but don’t reduce that cost by the offsets to determine if we break even, save money, or realize the actual cost. In corporate speak Americans need to exam the “Value Proposition” rather than just the expense.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
The only thing that has truly diminished is the RIGHT of a citizen to use our court system and a jury of peers to seek justice or compensation. While tort reform does not negate our right to redress guaranteed in the 1st Amendment this does seem to reduced the effectiveness of that right.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
Believe it or not, I learned from a very credible source that there have been at least 2 different potential “cures” that have been significantly reliable in increasing “T” cells to a level where patients are no longer considered immune-deficient. I even know personally (and I mean this individual is a personal friend - not a friend of a friend) someone who received a series of trial drugs and her T-cells went up to a normal count after being positive for 6 years. She had to sign all kinds of secrecy forms and things…
A good (former) friend of mine works in HIV/AIDS Research for the CDC and obviously couldn’t say much, but he insisted that the only thing stopping the “cure” of AIDS is money.
My question, however, is if it’s all about money, why don’t they just make the cure the same price as the average meds cost?
By candide
March 7, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
I just sent an email to Gen. Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, to ask why he lied to the public on Sunday by telling us the war was going well. I suggest y’all do the same. Just go to Google, look up Peter Pace, and you will get the JCS page with a contact indication to use.
Give that bastard hell and tell him a marine should be ashamed to lie the way he has.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
Good point, John.
By Gob
March 7, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this
An aside…is there anything worse feeling than using the bathroom at work, and having someone start turning the knob?? You just pray that you locked the door…
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
Nothing says one can’t be profitable AND conduct business with integrity and honesty at the same time. 72J…this is an excellent point that is becoming more lost in the world today. It seems as though profit is equated with ‘as much as possible’ rather than looking at what is needed to continue to be a viable business. Lowered profit margins can mean more funds to attract top talent and better pricing to attract more customers. I think the difficulty lies in that our ecomony seems to be driven by stock prices. So long as the value of a company is determined solely by the price of it’s stock and the value of stock is based on increasing profits only a small minority of companies will put integrity/honesty/fair treatment of employees first.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this
Gob, yes there is a worse feeling. Try being sick at work, and praying no one comes in the bathroom… and of course, someone does. So, then you start praying you can just keep silent until they leave… but they NEVER leave… and you’re just….
STUCK.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
Wow, NetB. Your 1:33 was so profound.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
Indeed The72John, they could do that. But they don’t, John, they just don’t. Look at the situation in Africa. Big Pharma could discount the HIV drugs, or even waive their patents to allow a generic version…but they don’t. On a continent where a majority of people subsist on less than a dollar a day….they see profit potential.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
JBM. You left out the part about the sudden explosion. LOL
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
Yes, Gob, I think there is…like being with someone else in the pantry of the Church kitchen partially clothed while making out and having someone start to turn the knob and you KNOW there isn’t a lock on the door. This happened to two of my youth group cohorts on a Saturday afternoon when we were supposed to be doing a service project cleaning all the windows in the church and a YG leader went to the pantry to get more cleaning supplies.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Gob, JBM…ROTFLMAO!! Construction error took out the water main at work today…you ought to have seen the line when it came back on!
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
Candide, right after I finish my letter to South Dakota saying “You SUCK!” and my letter to Mississippi saying, “Don’t SUCK!” and my letter to the DNC saying, “Stand up and FIGHT you little weenies, before I come over there and shove my high-heeled FOOT up your A—!”
By FatMoose
March 7, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
NetB,
Why would they cure something they can make steady dough off indefinitely.
Is this not illegal?
I may be way off base here - but is it not similar to the govmt regulating Microsoft regarding fair business practices and such?
By Jack
March 7, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
I really hate it when someone accidently steps on one of your hemoroids. Yeow!
How is a yankee like a hemoroid? If they come down and go back up, fine. If they come down and stay, they’re a pain in the a$$.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
Kimmie, I’ll give you a perfect example of why you are WRONG YET AGAIN. Before tort reform passed here in Georgia, I had my 3rd operation on my knee. I was in my orthopedist’s office for follow-up care and he asked me what orthopedist I wanted him to send my records to. He had been in Georgia for nearly 15 years and his malpractice insurance had risen from $15,000 to $165,000 per year. He moved to Louisianna, where they have REAL tort reform and his coverage was only $20,000. This was a doctor who had never had a claim against him and had only been sued one time (a case he had won).
Tort reform was and continues to be a necessary first step in reducing healthcare costs. There are other steps that SHOULD be taken. For instance, how many of you complain about the cost of medical services to the DOCTOR? How many of you SHOP for the best prices on procedures? How many of you demand an itemized bill and then scrutinize it for overcharges, double charges and false charges? They are DOCTORS NOT GODS. Charging the most does not equal being the best.
Finally, THERE IS NO HEALTHCARE CRISIS. People not having INSURANCE is not the same thing as people not having HEATHCARE. There are free clinics and as as stated earlier, emergency rooms, BY LAW, can’t turn people away based on their inability to pay.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this
I like it when you talk tough. (Where’s that fan?)
By The72John
March 7, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
I’m aware they don’t Mara. You posed the question of why WOULD they. I was offering an answer.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
My cheeks hurt!!!!! ROFLMBO!!!!
By RF
March 7, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
Net- your 1:33 was right on target. It’s sad, to say the least, that companies like Costco, who have discovered that valued employees actually increase the bottom line. Short term profits have always driven business and investment. The difference is that businesses always kept an eye on the long term potential profit and loss. All that seems to matter now is the short term. Look at Delta- how did a company with billions in profit just a few years ago (POST 9/11 no less) become bankrupt? Retiring company leaders left the company in the hands of corporate “bottom-liners” who raked the company clean and put it where it is now. Short term gain for the wealthy and long term loss for the workers who kept the company going. Sad indeed!
Don’t you just hate the way the sound echoes off the metal stalls and ceramic tiles when you have one of those gassy days? You just KNOW everyone withing earshot is laughing at you!!
By RF
March 7, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this
yes chuck, there are ER’s who provide free health care. That’s why we waited SIX hours to see a doctor while my oldest was having an asthma attack. His lips were blue and his heart rate was off the chart before I could get anyone in the ER to even notice!! And this is in a nice suburban hospital in a growing county. But NOOOOO, there’s no crisis in health care!! How many ‘free clinics’ can you name? I can’t think of one beyond our county Health Dept., and I wouldn’t go there if I had to.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
I’m so glad that chuck is here to tell everyone, yet again, that they are wrong about everything, despite the many articles, studies, etc. to the contrary. How refreshing.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this
Thanks for breaking that down Chuckie, but did it occur to you that both the State of Lousianna and the per capita income are a lot lower, hence the reduction [you claim] in malpractice premiums? Sorry Chuck, but I’ve worked for insurance companies, and fairness is not on their agenda.
Interesting though. YOU have insurance, so there’s no health care crisis for YOU. Therefore, NO ONE ELSE MATTERS. What do you care about the people who can’t afford insurance, or preventative care, who lose wages while they sit for hours in a county hospital ER (or wait WEEKS for an appointment while their condition gets worse) for medical attention? Answer: YOU DON’T. So why comment on something you care nothing about? Huh?
By Zack
March 7, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
Welcome to the woman/woman blog. Post your comments at any time. Read the intelligent posts written by others on here (well, maybe not exactly “intelligent”, but they’re posts). If you disagree with those posting non-intelligent comments, get ready to be called everything under the sun, and get ready to have Brian Curtis and his friends question your sexuality, which he does every time I back him into a corner when he actually does want to argue as opposed to just name-call. He either does that or ignores everyone and the issue at hand and tells “your mama” jokes.
Yep, this is just how it is in the real world!
By the way, I applaud anyone who didn’t watch the Oscars the other night. Who cares about Hollywood? Who cares about the way the media portrays it? Who cares a thing about “Brokeback Mountain”, and why does Hollywood applaud it but attack “The Passion of the Christ”?
One word: Hypocrisy.
As for our ports, we’d better watch them ourselves.
Back to you, Brian, no, I don’t hold you in the same low regard as I do Lozen and Whiley, but you don’t add much more to the blog than they do.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
RF, I have to tell you, I haven’t seen a “free clinic” since New York 1988. I wouldn’t know one if I drove past it. But, my question is, do they provide preventive care in addition to emergency care? And, even if the consultation is free, I’m sure prescriptions, lab work, x-rays, and surgical work isn’t free…
I’ll be honest, when I first moved here I had planned to take 6 months off before working. Long story short, I got caught in the 9/11 aftermath, and couldn’t find a job for nearly a year. When I finally started working, I had exhausted my savings, tapped into my 401(k), and paid bills with my credit card… I had a lot of catching up to do, and there were times, even with my good job, that I couldn’t afford the co-pays and prescriptions for my medical care. Those things add up like you wouldn’t believe, and sometimes, even working people can’t afford them.
At my job then, I had pretty good insurance, but when I discovered another lump in my breast, I couldn’t even afford to have it removed and I WAS INSURED!!!
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
I have insurance and waited 3 hours in an ER to get treated. That has nothing to do with the fact that basic healthcare IS available. It may be mor inconvenient for those who can’t pay their way, but it is available.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
(and he came in so hostile, so angry, so satan-like)
Take note, guys… seeds of discord. Notice the tone of the conversation before and after a certain someone’s entrance….
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
Per capita income has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of MALPRACTICE insurance but tort reform DOES>
By Gob
March 7, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
Going with Chuck’s logic, there is also no homeless problem in the US. I mean, there are shelters, so they dont HAVE to be homeless. There isnt a drug problem either because there are rehab clinics. Those people who die without insurance are just making a choice. They could do something if they really wanted to. Stupid poor people. Dont they know they shouldnt get sick??
By The72John
March 7, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
Let’s just ignore both of the jerks and continue on with what HAS BEEN a perfectly civil discussion. Shall we?
By RF
March 7, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
JBM- if you don’t sit on the toilet so long trying to hide, your cheeks won’t hurt!! They make padded seats for that you know! ;-)
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Maybe we were being unfair to Chuck. He just entered the discussion to state that HE doesn’t think Americans have a right to file lawsuits when they’ve been harmed through negligence or greed. He thinks the justice system should no longer belong to the citizens of this nation, but only to the big corporations who set the prices for their profits. Why should we jump on him for stating his opinion? I’m sorry Chuck. You just come on now and let your lil’ light SHINE! Mmmm-kay?
By Zack
March 7, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
By the way, I’m 99.9% sure that “Candide” is Norman.
Back to work.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Ooooh, now we have TWO of them! Go Christians go!!!!
By RF
March 7, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
Chuck- I have the same insurance plans you do, hence I WAS a paying, insured person. And I’m sorry, it’s not much of an emergency room if you have to come in on a stretcher to be seen quickly. I find it hard to believe that you honestly believe that’s healthcare.
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
By Renee
March 7, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
excellent suggestion John…oh and yours too RF LOL
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
John, seriously though… wasn’t it such a civil discussion? As my nana would say, “that devil done reared his ugly head again!” LOL.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
John, seriously though… wasn’t it such a civil discussion? As my nana would say, “that devil done reared his ugly head again!” LOL.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
RF!!!!!!! LOL!!!!
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
Chuck, wanna have an EVIDENCE FIGHT?
California passed the Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act (MICRA) in 1975, which capped non-economic damages at $250,000. In the thirteen years after MICRA’s passage, physicians’ malpractice premiums increased 450 percent. Only after California voters passed Proposition 103, a ballot initiative which instituted rate regulation and required a 20 percent rollback in rates, did doctors see their insurance premiums drop.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
John I’m aware they don’t Mara. You posed the question of why WOULD they. I was offering an answer.
The question you answered the question of why they SHOULD, not why they would. They should make the cure available from simple decency. But would they? As my illustration of the African situation shows, altruism isn’t one of Big Pharma’s strong suits.
I’m not arguing that they couldn’t provide it, or that they shouldn’t. Merely that they wouldn’t, unless they could profit more form it than from treating the symptoms.
By Renee
March 7, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
Things NOT to eat at work.
Fig Newtons Wheat Thins
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
I’m Saved, I’m Saved, I was congratulated for not watching the Oscars.
Oh, wait, I don’t watch ANY awards shows anyway. LOL
By RF
March 7, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
JBM- my favorite “granny” saying was- You better give your heart to Jesus because your a$$ is mine!! That was usually said as she waved her “switch” for emphasis and then tore yo’ butt up!!
By Newbie
March 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
I have also heard of a cancer cure the drug companies do not want people to know about. They do NOT want cures for anything. How many ZILLIONS of dollars are made off prescription drugs? Now they’re even advertising them on TV to the consumer. Forget the fact that 5 or 10 years from now these new drugs will show that they cause heart problems or liver damage, etc.
I say if you want a cure-go natural with herbs, vitamins, fruits and vegetables. God put these things here for the healing of our bodies after all. I’m not saying doctors aren’t useful at times. But I think there are alot of natural cures that we hear nothing about through the traditional media outlets.
For example, milk thistle is so good for your liver that it actually repairs damaged cells and regenerates them. Do some research in this herb. It is amazing.
Also, organic is the way to go. Why eat foods covered in pestacides? I think the reason so many people get cancer is the way we eat. Read the labels in the grocery store and see how many ingredients there are that you can’t even pronounce. How many of these chemicals cause cancer or other diseases? It’s scarey. Most people don’t think about it though and just trust that everything’s “safe” to eat. Hogwash! They want to make money and don’t care about the risks.
Read a can of diet soda and look up the ingredients. One of them is used to clean rust and another causes drying and cracked skin.
Nutrition, staying away from processed/chemical foods, lots of filtered water and exercise is the best way to prevent cancer and other diseases. (IMHO)
Just think what would happen if a doctor discovered that eating 5 oranges a day cured cancer. What do you think would happen? What would the drug companies do to shut up that information? They couldn’t patent oranges now could they. And look at the money they would stand to lose. This probably happens all the time.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Ask the doctors in Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, Ohio, Mississippi, and Nevada if their premiums went down after tort reform. They’ll tell you, “Maybe it WAS the insurance companies’ greed and not the legal rights of Americans…”
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
So satan’s evil twin sister, did you immediately stop this friend when she told you she was breaking a confidence?
By Jack
March 7, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Ooooo. Fig Newtons heated up in the microwave for a few seconds. Makes you want to eat the whole box if you dare.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
404-523-6571 The Good Samaritan Health Center Map Location
239 Alexander Street 404-523-6571, GA Atlanta Community Access Coalition
, GA Phone #: (404) 730-1225 The ACAC is a coalition of 12 healthcare and social service agencies that have developed a community based healthcare system to improve access to healthcare services throughout Fulton and DeKalb County for uninsured and underinsured residents. The “Mobile Dental Unit” link provides more information about dental care services provided to eligible residents.
Atlanta American Association of Medical Colleges The Center for Black Women’s Wellness, Atlanta Map Location
Atlanta, GA Phone #: (404) 688-9202 Site provides information about several programs directed by the CBWW group, including the Wellness Clinic (click on Wellness programs, and then the Wellness Clinic link) that operates on a sliding scale, and also accepts Medicaid. Also provides information about the Atlanta Healthy Start program.
Mercy Health Care Clinics, Atlanta Map Location
Atlanta, GA Phone #: (404) 249-8600 Downtown Atlanta and one in the Northeast Plaza on Buford Highway.Five days a week. These clinics provide a full array of medical services for low-income individuals and families
Southside Medical Center, Atlanta Map Location
Atlanta, GA Phone #: (404) 688-1350 The Southside Medical Center is dedicated to serving impoverished individuals with medical and treatment services, including adult medicine, teen health and women’s health areas
St. Joseph’s Hospital of Atlanta Teaching Hospitals Programs for the Uninsured Map Location
Atlanta, GA Phone #: (404) 880-3550 Community-based programs designed to help working families: wellness programs, preventative and primary care medicine, health education initiatives and emergency care. Select region of country for listings of local hospitals and services.
Ben Massell Dental Clinic 18 17th Street , GA Phone #: (404) 881-1858 Adults Only. Cleanings, fillings, extractions, partials, dentures. One year wait for dentures and orthodontic services.
Decatur Physician’s Care Clinic Map Location
2665 N. Decatur Rd., Suite 220 B Decatur , GA Phone #: (404) 501-7940 Director: Ruth Oster, RN, MS
Gainsville Good News Community Health Center Map Location
983 Davis Street Gainsville , GA Director: Kim Smith, RN Clinical Dir, Sam Poole, MD, Med.
Good Samaritan Center 239 Alexander Street , GA Phone #: (404) 523-6571 x-221 Cleanings, fillings, root canals, partials, and dentures. Children 7 and up, adults.
Grady Oral Health Center 341 Ponce de Leon Avenue , GA Phone #: (404) 616-9772 HIV and AIDS patients.
Grady Oral Health Center 35 Butler Street SE , GA Phone #: (404) 616-3304 Sees only children, infants to age 18.
Hope Health Clinic, Griffin
, GA Phone #: (770) 412-1053 Mon. - Thur. 8:30 A.M. - 4:30 P.M. Friday 8:30 - 11:00 A.M.The Hope Health Clinic serves Spalding County residents who are not covered by government health care programs and who are unable to afford private insurance. The services provided include complete medical exams and follow-up examinations as needed, routine and general medical care and many more options. Fees are based on income.
Morrow The Good Shepherd Clinic Map Location
Morrow , GA Phone #: 770-968-1310 Director: Dr. Thomas Kelley
By Jack
March 7, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this
My liver could probably use some of that milk thistle.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
It just amazes me how one person - and a supposed christian at that - can singlehandled stir up so much discord…
I really find that surprising.
We have had such an unusual sense of peace and harmony today. A thoroughly enjoyable discussion on varying topics where some agreed, and some disagreed. It was absolutely delightful.
Then one individual rears his head, and all of a sudden all hell (no pun intended) breaks loose.
What Would Jesus Think…. lol
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
Any more questions RF?
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
Anybody hear the doctor stating the Pro-Life argument(as it applies to everybody) for universal health care on NPR’s Matters of Faith Sunday morning. Interesting argument for sure.
Personally, I would just put it under the Constitution’s commerce clause. Healthy employees good for bizness. Like roads. hahahahaha
By Mara
March 7, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
oooooh! Look and chuck cut-n-paste! Cut, chuck, cut. Paste, chuck, paste. oooooooh, clever boy!
By Renee
March 7, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Chuck - when you say “Satan’s evil twin sister” of whom do you speak of???? That could apply to anybody here LOL
By chuck
March 7, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
So Kim, A 30 year increase in premiums WITH tort reform of 450% is worse than an 1100% increase in Georgia in 15 years WITHOUT tort reform.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
Here is an article about a Department of Justice story that belies the claims of the ultra-conservatives. Of course, this is a consumer advocacy organization, which, for some reason, will cause some people to shout “liberal bias”. I’m not sure why this is…Clark Howard is relatively conservative, and he’s the most famous consumer advocate there is.
Anyway, for those of you who are more interested in facts than in regurgitated Hannityisms, check it out.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
JBM…ignore.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
You better give your heart to Jesus because your a$$ is mine!!
Megadeth: Countdown to Extinction
wonder if they paid your granny royalties? LOL
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this
ROFL Mara!!!!!!!!
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
BTW, while I know ignorance is bliss, and ya’ll are some of the happiest folks I know, TORT REFORM does not stop APPROPPRIATE lawsuits from going forward. It stops FRIVLOUS lawsuits from being filed and CAPS PUNITIVE, not ACTUAL DAMAGES.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
Chilao, I don’t know what you’ve been taking lately, but you are really in rare form!
John, you’re right… I shall.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this
Chuck = Zack Lite.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Mara, He asked for the names of free clinics. It took about 30 seconds to find and post them. If you have something substantial to say…never mind.
By RF
March 7, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Same list I saw Chuck. You realize that’s only 9 that are not dental clinics or which offer care to all. If you noticed, they’re all in Atlanta but 2. NINE clinics statewide. YEP, that’s quality healthcare for those who have none. Anyone else think that’s adequate care for all? MY insurance has hundreds of doctors. I couldn’t begin to count the specialists and hospitals I have access to. The uninsured have 9…sounds good!!
Well, moving on…everyone knows you’re a little devil Renee!
By The72John
March 7, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this
here’s a mainstream source that debunks even further the myth of tort reform.
It’s amazing how much some people WANT to believe utter fabrication.
By RF
March 7, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this
Chilao- only you could come up with that obscure Megadeath reference!!—LOLOL Nah, I heard too many grandmothers use that in some form or another to try to pay royalties!
Jack- snicker, snicker!!
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this
LOL @ “Zack Lite”… you are so silly Jack.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
Burn those websites, burn those websites. Better yet, forward them to Rush, see how he spins them.
JBM - it’s those dang Columbians and their Juan Valdez. LOL they beat me over the head and made me drink it, I swear.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
RF, I think I heard that somewhere too… and, I don’t listen to Megadeth (whoever that is… lol). Renee probably does.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this
Chilao, Step away from the mug. Uh uh uh… slowly, now. Back up slowly.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
(Wow! chucky’s getting a bit testy isn’t he?!) But did you cut-n-paste chuncky? Well? Did ya? Sure ya did. It’s okay. We could all tell. (pat, pat, on the head…)
Now go play with your “George Dubya, Flight Leader Extraordinaire” action figure.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
Long as Juan was there with his donkey you’re ok. If the donkey was there alone, you might worry!
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
Actually since Megdeth introduced me to those words, I have heard of others using them, long before Captive Honor was done. Usually as a prelude to a whoppin by some parent, grandparent etc. LOL
But obscure?, why, why…never mind. lmao
That song also introduced me to You kill a man, you are a murderer, you kill many, and you are a Conqueror, you kill them all, and you are a god but I eventually learned that was also a ripoff from someone centuries ago.
By Jack K
March 7, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
~~~What are you guys smoking anyway?????~~~
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
I just researched Juan Valdez, since i almost keyed Jose. but learned it started in 1960 and it was a mule. must have been a small one, always looked like a donkey to me as well.
By JimmY Jattesen
March 7, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
Dear Ms. Glass,
It was extremely hard to continue reading your opinion when you start it off with a lie. Pres. Bush has been painting muslims (in general) as “dangerous nuke seeking people”?? Pres Bush has been very careful from the beginning to NOT make this a muslim problem—-but a terrorist problem.
“Early warning of the deaths of 3,000 people”??. You know and I know that Pres. Bush got 1,000 different kinds of warnings in the months prior to 9-11. Including the one you refer to.
It is NEVER neccassary to lie, when you have the truth on your side. Obviously, truth is not on your side.
By RF
March 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
Kudos to Mara and Chilao for making this a fun read!! I love the action figure Mara!!
Gotta go to a faculty meeting. yay, wow, sooooo much fun……NOT!! I need of that Valdez brew to stay awake!
Have a good evening all!
By Renee
March 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
LOL @ “George Dubya, Flight Leader Extraordinaire” action figure too funny
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
Actually since Megdeth introduced me to those words, I have heard of others using them, long before Captive Honor was done. Usually as a prelude to a whoppin by some parent, grandparent etc. LOL
But obscure?, why, why…never mind. lmao
That song also introduced me to You kill a man, you are a murderer, you kill many, and you are a Conqueror, you kill them all, and you are a god but I eventually learned that was also a ripoff from someone centuries ago.
By Jack K
March 7, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this
~~~What are you guys smoking anyway?????~~~
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
sorry, got a blank screen on first post.
By Renee
March 7, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
LOL @ “George Dubya, Flight Leader Extraordinaire” action figure too funny
By Jack
March 7, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
We are all high on life. Dig it!
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this
RF, TYPICAL!!! You ask:
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
I do so and you say “Well, uh,uh, yeah but there aren’t enough.”
And 72j, your little link does NOTHING that you claimed it did. It cites a litany of made up law suits that HMMMM other publications have PRINTED AS TRUTH, even though they, according to USA today, are false. How does the existence of false stories of lawsuits equate to the lack of need for tort reform. There are PLENTY of real cases that could be discussed, but that isn’t the point. Until tort reform there was no limit on PUNITIVE DAMAGES. It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this
RF, TYPICAL!!! You ask:
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
I do so and you say “Well, uh,uh, yeah but there aren’t enough.”
And 72j, your little link does NOTHING that you claimed it did. It cites a litany of made up law suits that HMMMM other publications have PRINTED AS TRUTH, even though they, according to USA today, are false. How does the existence of false stories of lawsuits equate to the lack of need for tort reform. There are PLENTY of real cases that could be discussed, but that isn’t the point. Until tort reform there was no limit on PUNITIVE DAMAGES. It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this
RF, TYPICAL!!! You ask:
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
I do so and you say “Well, uh,uh, yeah but there aren’t enough.”
And 72j, your little link does NOTHING that you claimed it did. It cites a litany of made up law suits that HMMMM other publications have PRINTED AS TRUTH, even though they, according to USA today, are false. How does the existence of false stories of lawsuits equate to the lack of need for tort reform. There are PLENTY of real cases that could be discussed, but that isn’t the point. Until tort reform there was no limit on PUNITIVE DAMAGES. It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
RF, TYPICAL!!! You ask:
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
I do so and you say “Well, uh,uh, yeah but there aren’t enough.”
And 72j, your little link does NOTHING that you claimed it did. It cites a litany of made up law suits that HMMMM other publications have PRINTED AS TRUTH, even though they, according to USA today, are false. How does the existence of false stories of lawsuits equate to the lack of need for tort reform. There are PLENTY of real cases that could be discussed, but that isn’t the point. Until tort reform there was no limit on PUNITIVE DAMAGES. It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums.
By Mara
March 7, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
;^P Glad to have brightened all y’alls day! (except chunks, evidently) but now it’s time to go. Adios, au revoir, auf wiedersehen…good night!
By Jack
March 7, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
You need to hit cancel or it posts twice. Then go back to AJC and to the blog.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
RF, TYPICAL!!! You ask:
Answer my question. Where are the free clinics in Atlanta? Do you know of any???? Name them!
I do so and you say “Well, uh,uh, yeah but there aren’t enough.”
And 72j, your little link does NOTHING that you claimed it did. It cites a litany of made up law suits that HMMMM other publications have PRINTED AS TRUTH, even though they, according to USA today, are false. How does the existence of false stories of lawsuits equate to the lack of need for tort reform. There are PLENTY of real cases that could be discussed, but that isn’t the point. Until tort reform there was no limit on PUNITIVE DAMAGES. It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
OOOPS, sorry for the multiple posts. That was weird. Thanks for the info Jack.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
Yes Chuck, we GET it. Blame the victims. It’s all their fault. “No jury for YOU!” Got it. Check. At least you’re consistent.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
If there are so many true and compelling stories of frivolous lawsuits, I wonder why its proponents continue to use the false ones?
Either way, the facts continue to support the truth: that blaming health care costs on lawsuits is innacurate and unfounded.
It doesn’t matter how many times someone claims otherwise.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
holding my hands over my ears Somebody make it stop!!!
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this
If there are so many true and compelling stories of frivolous lawsuits, I wonder why its proponents continue to use the false ones?
Either way, the facts continue to support the truth: that blaming health care costs on lawsuits is innacurate and unfounded.
It doesn’t matter how many times someone claims otherwise.
By chuck
March 7, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
Loved your web page Kim
By chuck
March 7, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
HOW DENSE ARE YOU KIM? Tort reform does not prevent legitimate lawsuits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Jack
March 7, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
OK John, splain why mal-practice insurance is so high. Please.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
If a buzzword is uttered and there isn’t a conservative around to hear it, does anyone care?
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this
Swimming, swimming, just keep swimming, la la lala la….. Ignoring bait impaled on hook dangled by angry “Fisherman.” Hahaha! Hey, did Finding Nemo win an Oscar?
By Haysoos Christo
March 7, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this
oooooooh i can’t wait till judgement day.
By Just Being Me
March 7, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
LOL @ Finding Nemo
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this
Insurance companies INVEST premiums they collect. It’s a large portion of their income. When these investment portfolios do not perform as well as they have in the past, they make up the lost income in other ways. POP QUIZ: How do you think they make up the difference when investment income drops? (Jeopardy music plays….) Think about it.
By Jack
March 7, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
What is cutting heads?
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this
Read for yourself, Jack
Note that the report specifically states that there is no data to support the assertion that tort reform in the states that have enacted it has led to decreased premiums.
It is also fallacious to assume that claims and false claims are the same thing. The report states that claims have been higher than anticpated since ‘98. There is no evidence to support that these are false claims. The report also clearly states that the insurance companies have not suffered a LOSS due to these claims, but that they have increased their premiums because they did not meet their profit expectations.
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this
POP QUIZ: How do you think they make up the difference when investment income drops? (Jeopardy music plays….)
gee, pay out in way excess of UCR(usual, customary, reasonable), Alex?
No?
Can I ring in again and say “raise premiums”?
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
chuck….do you have any print materials or links to support your ascertion that tort reform was needed to control insurance costs?
It is this POTENTIAL for out of control awards that drive malpractice premiums. I’m sure it is the position of the insurance companies. I’m not sure I’m buying this since insurance rates supposed to be based on PROBABILITY rather than potential. Every time I drive my car there is the POTENTIAL for an accident, but my insurance is based on the probability I’ll have one. I’m not sure it would be accepted by insurance regulators to have one type of insurnace based on probability and another on potential since potential is a constant while probabilities are not.
By kimberly
March 7, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this
Ding ding ding! YES, Chilao!
No one buzzed in on our other question, to which the answer is YES! Finding Nemo swam past other animated features to win an Oscar in 2004! YAY, Nemo!
That’s what we do; we SWIM!
By Jack
March 7, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Keep swimming until you get to the island. :)
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
This is a life-time ago, but I once spent two years as a Group Health Insurance billing clerk, verifying coverage for every doctor’s office and hospital business office that called to verify coverage. Once had the whole speel memorized but that was years ago. LOL
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
phaugh - The Incredibles was way better than Finding Nemo.
By RF
March 7, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this
Yes, Chuck, you answered my question. How very polite of you and how very rude of me for not thanking you. I then went on to say, very logically, that NINE free clinics in the entire state doesn’t seem like enough to me. If it does to you, so be it. Maybe the next time you wait in the emergency room, and you’re really sick, in pain, or struggling to breathe like my son, you’ll think again about whether or not we have enough free clinics in GA. Look up how many are in Virginia for instance. They have 61 member clinics in the VA Assoc. of Free Clinics serving 110 counties and cities. We have NINE, count them with me now, NINE listed for the state of GA. Unless you’d rather launch some sort of personal attack (which we all know is exactly what you LOVE to do), then tell me that NINE should be considered adequate care. Think about kids you teach who are uninsured, or better yet, think about yourself if you lost your job. Would that seem like enough medical care to you?
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
I was like, Finding Nemo? wasn’t this year, wasn’t that awhile back?, but once I googled, learned it won in Spring, 2004, it being a 2003 release. Best Animated Feature
but since I considered googling a’cheatin’. LOL
By Jack
March 7, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this
“phaugh”?
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
Never saw The Incredibles but I loved Shark Tales and actually have Finding Nemo on VCR but I have only seen twice. and neither was that VCR copy I bought. in fact that was loaned to relatives nearly long as I have actually had it in my possession.
By The72John
March 7, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
yeah, kind of an onomatopaeic thing, expression of disgust and dismissal ;-)
By RF
March 7, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
Yeah, but nothing beats the original Pixar, Toy Story. Love Nemo, love Incredibles, but there’s nothing like the first. Ooooooh, had a flashback there—kinda nice one actually…..;-)
By Chilao
March 7, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
And the only coverage we would give for Deviated nasal septrum was for guys who worked in auto body paint shops. If you worked in sales and ended up with one, well, we knew that was not from poor ventilation when spraying nasty paint.
By Netbanker
March 7, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this
So if we all Swim down! Swim down! we’ll win break the net of the christian posers?
By The72John
March 8, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this
Oh look…someone is cutting and pasting again!
Personally, I would think the findings of the non-partisan GAO are slightly more reliable than an article written by an insurance industry group. Call me, you know, crazy.
Fox…guarding…henhouse…lol.
By candide
March 8, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this
Here’s the perfect solution. Congress attaches a bill vs. the Dubai Port takeover to a war appropriations bill. Bush vetoes it, and Congress does not override. This takes away funds for this evil war and we pull our troops out. Then Congress can look at the ports issue again. Bush wins, he can blame Congress for the pullout. We all win when we leave Iraq.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this
Jeez Chuck, you act like we have time to read all of that. A brief synopsis would suffice.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this
john doesn’t trust a brief synopsis. He has to be beaten over the head with facts.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 09:03 AM | Link to this
And even then he doesn’t believe. But it is fun PROVING him wrong.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 09:13 AM | Link to this
Actually Chuckie, I made my own interpretation of the GAO report. Unlike you, I don’t need to go use other people’s words to make an argument.
Keep cutting and pasting, Chuck…the only thing you’re “proving” is that you are an idiot.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this
And Chuck, since you obviously aren’t bright enough to understand it, who do you think is INFLUENCING the committee on tort reform? Could it be…the insurance industry?
GASP!
Why…you mean that there is INFLUENCE PEDDLING in WASHINGTON?
Which part of “Non-partisan” and “objective” are you having trouble with?
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 09:16 AM | Link to this
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By Chilao
March 8, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this
Did all that show that tort reform has merely reduced the cost of atrocious business behavior to an acceptable level of cost of doing business?
that is all tort reform means to me.
By Gob
March 8, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this
“YOU quoted someone’s INTERPRETATION of the GAO report. NOT THE SAME THING.”
Chuck, what did you do that was any different? You posted a committee brief written by a republican senator. Do you really believe that he is totally impartial, and just delivering the facts?
Also, again, you are hardly using impartial sources to back up your claims. Insurance companies and a consulting firm that works for insurance companies arent a very accurate basis for the truth. They are paid to give you only one side of the story.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
Hahaha! Wow, it’s awful early to be over the edge, isn’t it? Okay, no one ever said “there’s no such thing as frivolous lawsuits,” mmmmm-KAY? But removing the right of citizens to redress is not the ONLY POSSIBLE solution, mmmmm-KAY? When addressing a problem, reasonable folks consider its scope, and consider the various alternatives before taking DRACONIAN measures to “solve” it. Are ya with me so far? Sen. John Edwards (a lawyer) suggested that the issue of frivilous suits could be better addressed by sanctioning lawyers who take cases that are clearly frivolous — thereby encouraging the legal industry to police itself. That concept seems to be lost on the blame-the-victim crowd. Think about it: an industry that polices itself. For example, maybe the credit card industry should stop sending cards to 18-year-olds with no jobs or high-risk borrowers, instead of spending all that money drafting new bankruptcy legislation and buying congressman to sign it. And if the medical industry policed itself instead of covering up for collegues, then the small percentage of doctors who are sh—-y would not continue harming patients, and the rate of malpractice would go DOWN. Just a thought.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
So basically chuck is saying that if I were to go to the hospital to get my tonsils removed and they extracted my ovaries by mistake, $250,000 should more than compensate me for that over-hyped (and probably imaginary) trauma called “pain and suffering”, right? Isn’t that what we’re talking about? Non-economic damages? After all, men go to work every day without ovaries, so not having them shouldn’t impact my wage earning ability…
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this
Mara - you are zero population growth? like me. Why should you even be compensated at all for loosing your ovaries? Duh…. Honest mistake there, ya know.
Sorry, being sarcastic/facetious, just trying to think like a tort reformist. LOL
or as I voiced it: ‘taut raythormist’ (I better stop)
By Jack
March 8, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this
“the issue of frivilous suits could be better addressed by sanctioning lawyers who take cases that are clearly frivolous — thereby encouraging the legal industry to police itself.” Great idea but like the fair tax, it will never happen. Sharks swim together and they cannot hurt themselves. Capping awards doesn’t work. Mara’s example shows that.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this
LOL Chilao…you are in rare form!!!
By Jack
March 8, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this
XOXOXOXOX
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this
Jack, you’re so right. Sharks DO swim together. That’s why SOME OF US will keep standing up for the little fish, even while some people tell us the little fish deserve to be eaten ‘cause “it’s their fault they’re little.” There will always be predators and A—H—-s, and there will always be someone like me willing to stand up and call it.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this
John, I’m going to be there for you today like you were there for me yesterday.
It’s okay to debate the guy, but when he starts calling names (and we all know that he will start calling names), promise me you’ll hit the ignore button and move on. You know what he’s here for. Don’t give it to him.
Oh wait. I just scrolled up. He already started calling names… go figure.
Don’t fall for it, John.
And, GOB, your 9:24 hit the nail on the head.
By Brian Curtis
March 8, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this
Well, we’re bouncing around quite a few topics now!
Outsourcing: The basic message from most outsourcing cheerleaders is “American workers have it too good.” And people are actually BUYING this??? I guess if you can blame it on unions or healthcare, it sounds more plausible, but still…! (Of COURSE Bush and his administration like outsourcing; it benefits corporations and their CEOs, who are the only ones that matter.)
The really scary part is the shrugs of acceptance I’m seeing: “Well, that’s capitalism for you. That’s how the free market works.” Umm, yeah—-so what? When did we become resigned to letting capitalism do whatever it wants to the middle class (i.e., destroy it) instead of taking corrective action? The free market is supposed to work to our BENEFIT; we don’t serve it, it serves us.
Man, apathy really is becoming a problem in this country.
Ports: I think we’ve established pretty clearly that the Dubai deal has just exposed a long-standing problem—-a gaping hole in our national security that’s never been properly addressed. And now that addressing it might interfere with (gasp!) corporate deal-making, it’s suddenly totally unnecessary to worry about national security any more!
Besides, in the right-wing haze that passes for a “mindset,” liberals and Democrats aren’t allowed to care about national security—-it’s a Republican issue, dammit, so it’s downright hypocritical and unfair for the left to recognize national security as a legitimate concern. Why, they tried to interfere with Bush’s attempts to destroy the Constitution in the name of “national security”-—that should PROVE that national security’s not a priority, right? (rolling eyes)
South Dakota: No real surprise here. Once two new Bush appointees were in place on the Supreme Court, you KNEW a case would soon be filed to test the waters on overturning Roe v. Wade. This time, it’s taking the form of an outrageously stupid bill in South Dakota.
Buckle up, folks, it could be an interesting show.
Tort reform: Unsurprisingly, Republicans and corporate lobbyists are wildly in favor of this… far more than any further investigation into the Abramoff scandal. That alone should tell you plenty about this issue.
Do frivolous lawsuits occur? Of course. And would tort reform fix the problem? Only indirectly, by destroying the worker or consumer’s right to seek a redress of grievances for corporate negligence.
The bigger concern is that guaranteed-maximum awards will enable corporations to build negligent-death and malfeasance awards into their budgets as part of the “cost of doing business.” The deterrent factor of no-limit punitive damages is, in some cases, the ONLY reason corrupt profit-driven CEOs are forced to do something about their negligent (or even malevolent) methods and products.
If individuals were being plagued with frivolous claims, I’d be worried. Corporations, however, don’t rank as high as citizens on the importance scale; they have fewer rights by design, and greater responsibility to compensate for their greater economic power and reduced legal liability.
Tort reform would be doing a huge favor to corporate malefactors and insurers; for that reason alone, it’s a terrible idea.
The inarguable healthcare crisis: Boy, Chuck’s denial really goes to the heart of the Limbot attitude, doesn’t it? “There’s no crisis—-after all, poor people can always go to emergency rooms!”
Yes, Chuck: emergency rooms that WE all pay for… and that cost FAR more than providing basic, preventive healthcare would have cost if the problem or condition had been addressed BEFORE it deterioriated into an ER situation.
The fact that over 40 million Americans have no coverage means they effectively have no access to quality healthcare; that IS a healthcare crisis. One that most other civilized nations have avoided or resolved with a simple, sensible national healthcare plan.
Oh well… at least you posted some actual support for your tort-reform argument (bought and biased though it is). That’s progress.
Zack: Whine all you want, psycho. No one’s impressed. And no one’s especially worried about what regard you hold them in.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
wow, even China will be having a Social Security problem in the not that far off future, part of what I was saying yesterday. (but I did not mention Social Security). Seems the world is not breeding fast enough, what ‘they’ say is Europe’s problem with Muslims in Europe as well. European Muslims breeding faster than European Christians.
http://www.slate.com/id/2137680/?nav=tap3
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this
experts commissioned by the Bush Administration to study medical malpractice litigation said state authorities should do a better job disciplining incompetent doctors. They said the public needed to be protected against substandard practice by physicians and that improved policing of medical treatment would decrease the number of malpractice lawsuits, adding that state medical boards often have insufficient resources to handle the thousands of complaints they receive each year and that the process of removing the license of an incompetent doctor is often long and costly. And at the end of July 2005, Congress passed legislation that would create a network for reporting and analyzing medical errors. Reporting of mistakes by hospitals would be voluntary, the information would be confidential and information could not be used in medical malpractice cases. There are currently 23 similar state programs, all of them but one with mandatory reporting.
Chuck…before you declare yourself the winner in a one sided conversation is it not possible based on the quote above that the FEAR (i.e. potential of a large claim you mentioned yesterday) would be ameliorated by the removal of bad doctors in a timely fashion and improvement in correcting the medical errors that are voluntarily reported? Is it possible that this is really the ROOT cause of problem rather than torts? Are not the torts an outgrowth of continuing to allow bad doctors to continue to practice? Bad outcomes from bad doctors skew the rates at which errors will occur and those rates are applied to the medical procedure not necessarily WHO performs the procedure and therefore gives the appearance of an increased risk. If those errors are reduced so is the risk of procedure and that reduction in risk should be reflected in malpractice rates. It seems to me that we aren’t addressing the root cause, but the response to that cause.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this
Again, the message here is that we should be protecting the profits of corporations and industry at all costs. The consumer is painted as the villain, and the insurance companies painted as the innocent victim.
Why have we adopted this philosophy - that corporations are helpless lambs doing all they can to eke out a meager profit while fending off the depredations of a rapacious army of consumers bent on their destruction?
It’s asinine and patently false, but it’s become the mantra of the far right.
By Archie
March 8, 2006 10:38 AM | Link to this
“The really scary part is the shrugs of acceptance I’m seeing: “Well, that’s capitalism for you. That’s how the free market works.” Umm, yeah—-so what? When did we become resigned to letting capitalism do whatever it wants to the middle class (i.e., destroy it) instead of taking corrective action? The free market is supposed to work to our BENEFIT; we don’t serve it, it serves us.
Man, apathy really is becoming a problem in this country.”
Brian,I really agree with those statements especially the one about apathy. I am amazed that we are allowing a king to govern us. I didn’t mean king I meant Bush,well, whatever…
“The fact that over 40 million Americans have no coverage means they effectively have no access to quality healthcare; that IS a healthcare crisis. One that most other civilized nations have avoided or resolved with a simple, sensible national healthcare plan.”
Brian I have been saying what you are in the aforementioned paragraph for years and people shout me down when the numbers of liberal,er,common sense folk aren’t around.
As for tort reform I am amazed that a teacher would support only being able to get $250,000. I mean why not let the system work since everything in America is perfect. I am amazed that rich folk can convince poor folk to support so many things that benefit rich folk and they don’t have to use great logic to do this.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this
Mara’s argument doesn’t do anything of the sort. PUNITIVE damages are designed to PUNISH the offender not to reward the injured. The state takes 75% of punitive damage awards in Georgia. Once you take out the lawyer fees there isn’t much left for the injured anyway. Tort reform does not place a limit on ACTUAL damages. It also does not stop anyone from filing a lawsuit.
Most tort reforms limit NON-ECONOMIC (almost always PUNITIVE) damages and establish penalties for filing frivilous OR fraudulent lawsuits (usually having to pay the attorney fees for the person you sued). The democrats have their heads so far up the rearends of trial lawyers that they are not and CANNOT be rational about this issue. Like just about every other situation, all they want is to provide a CHECK for doing nothing. BTW, Here is an interesting article by Walter E. Williams about the democrats attitude toward Blacks in America. I know most of you won’t read it, but I’ll be glad to copy and paste it for you if you request it. It might even make 72john think:
[http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/03/08/188873.html]
There are excellent economic benefits that accrue to states that pass tort reform as was seen in Texas. I also believe that it helps IMPROVE Medical care because talented people will go into needed high risk fields if they can once again afford to pay the malpractice insurance costs.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this
Try getting elective surgery in a timely fashion in a country where the gov’t controls healthcare. Been to a VA hospital lately? A very good example of why the private sector needs to be in control.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
NetB, I totally agree with you that BAD doctors need to be weeded out QUICKLY. I think EVERY tort refom package should have some sort of legislation attached that Doctors who make FREQUENT mistakes be shoved out of the field. This is done to some degree through insurance premiums, i.e. more claims, higher premiums, which in fact DOES occur. It is not enough. State medical review boards are a necessary part of ANY tort reform attempt.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this
The posts in this thread, for the most part, have been entertaining and argued with passion. I think part of the problem with tort reform is a problem with creating laws in general. Laws are like rollerbrushes - they cover a lot of area well, but don’t get into the corners too precisely. It is almost impossible to draft a law that has the precision of a small paintbrush. The best you can do is draft a law that “gets into the corners” as best you can. What I believe will truly affect tort reform is business practices. Removing bad doctors is a start, but in my work as a defense lawyer, the truly egregious cases are rarely the ones that go to trial. If liability is clear, those cases settle. More than 90% of cases settle before trial anyway. It is only when liability is questionable or that the parties are too far apart to settle, does a trial go forward. Trials are handled much like other business deals - if it is more cost effecient to try the case, it’s tried.
I disagree with Brian’s claims that frivolous lawsuits don’t harm the consumer. Just like shoplifting translates to higher costs for every honest consumer, increased costs of business are always passed on to the consumer if possible. If costs of business exceed the fair market price of the service or product, that business goes belly up.
Brian’s statement “The free market is supposed to work to our BENEFIT; we don’t serve it, it serves us” is absolutely correct. That is why Walmart stays in business. People are not going to pay $2.50 for a gallon of gas if another station is selling it for $1.25. The ability to charge $1.25 is based on the costs of purchasing gas, business costs and profit. The desire companies to gain more market share will, in the vast majority of cases, force prices to the lowest possible margin where the company can make a profit. One of the few times that does not happen is in collusion.
But, anyway, very entertaining posts. Just wanted to add my few cents.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
The GAO report, quite simply, cannot be relied upon as the primary basis for deciding the fate of medical malpractice reform. The bottom line is that GAO is not an organization ideally suited to general diagnoses of policy issues like tort reform. Rather, GAO is better at specific, quantifiable tasks, such as audits of government agencies and evaluations of accounting systems. The GAO report is not a comprehensive study of medical malpractice problems. Instead, it is a report that on one hand fails to back up anecdotal reports of problems, yet simultaneously documents other evidence that there is a medical malpractice problem.
Basically what this states, Chuck, is that there is no reliable data from the GAO nor is that type of analysis a strength of that organization. I don’t disagree that tort reform may be needed to reduce the numbers of frivolous lawsuits, but capping the amounts of awards when there is no data to support that awards were the primary driver in the rise of rates may not really solve the problem. The other thing I noted when reading through your posts is that in almost every case of reform there were several areas addressed in addition to capping non-economic rewards. What this says to me is that there is more than one cause for rising malpractice rates and that action is being taken prior to really understanding the root causes. In other words it seems likely that we are treating the symptoms, but not curing the disease.
By Gob
March 8, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
Jack, doesnt it make perfectly logical sense that “elective” surgery be given a lower priority than surgery (or any other procedure)that could save a life? While it may inconvience the person who wants it done, non-life threatening situations SHOULD have longer waits.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
While normally I wouldn’t disagree with Brian Curtis, I think in this instance he’s being a little unrealistic. I certainly agree that we should act to minimize the impact of economic forces upon our own workforce and economy, but I also believe it’s naive to believe that we can resist global economic trends and remain competitive.
As Net has pointed out, we should be finding ways to adapt so that we remain an economic power in the changing economic climate. All signs indicate that this shift of production to third-world economies is inexorable. Rather than resisting, we should be riding the wave.
However, as Net has ALSO pointed out, the current anti-science, anti-progress administration is sabotaging the very industries that offer the most promise.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
Brian, if OUTSORCING is so bad for the American worker, why do we currently have the lowest unemployment rates in recent history?
By The72John
March 8, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this
So…punitive damages are bad because?
Amazing - yet AGAIN the conservatives who harp incessantly about personal responsibility fail to require the same responsibility out of their neo-aristocracy, the corporation.
If capital punishment is supposed to act as a deterrent for criminals, then why shouldn’t punitive damages act as a deterrent for doctors?
Oh, right…because in the mind of the average (and I do mean AVERAGE) conservative - individuals don’t matter.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
Glad we could “amuse” you, Charles. But don’t get too carried away. Most of us have credentials, too.
Except for chuck. He’s a middle school teacher.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
“elective” surgery be given a lower priority than surgery (or any other procedure)that could save a life? While it may inconvience the person who wants it done, non-life threatening situations SHOULD have longer waits.”
Sorry. I don’t buy that. Sounds too socialistic. Been to the VA lately? Check it out. State of the art.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
Yes, odd that Chuck is anti-punishment. I thought he was all ABOUT punishment. I guess that’s for individuals, not corporations.
BTW, does anyone else want to spell it out for Chuckie [AGAIN] about how unemployment stats are compiled? You know, how they only reflect ACTIVE claims for this week. (So if your UE has run out, and you have gone from a $50K job to waiting tables or bagging at Wal-Mart, or both, or if you’re a recent grad who can’t get diddly, you’re not included in the feel-good stats o’ the day?) Like DUH!
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
Been to the VA lately? No, but I did just cut a check to the GVVA. BTW, hasn’t Congress been slashing veterans’ benefits AGAIN? You know, while they were busy upholding tax cuts for my hummer-driving neighbors?
By The72John
March 8, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this
Here’s a math problem for you: If you have three hamburgers that weigh 1/2 lb each, and someone takes those hamburgers away and swaps them for four hamburgers that weight 1/4 lb each, are you better off just because you have more hamburgers?
By Jack
March 8, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
“PUNITIVE damages are designed to PUNISH the offender not to reward the injured.”
OK Chuck. If your doctor botched your circumcision and cut your johnson completely off because he had too much to drink the night before, you would be OK with 250K? (I know mine is worth more than that)
By Charles
March 8, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
Don’t be so thin-skinned 72John. Some of the above posts were intended as jokes and were funny to me. I did not attack anyone’s profession, but merely stated mine for perspective.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
72J, in case you haven’t noticed the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives is the opinions on who should be free and who should be regulated. Liberals believe in personal freedom and corporate regulation.
Conservatives think that businesses deserve to operate freely and personal activity be regulated. Take a look at every single hot-button issue. That’s the way it is, and once I figure out how to fit all that onto a bumper sticker I’m gonna make millions!…MILLIONS, I tell ya! moooowaahhahahah!!!
By Jb
March 8, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
Just something to think about. When the British were in charge of the terminals in questions, what would we have done if a WMD that was detonated on US soil was found to have entered the country through a P&O controlled terminal. The truth is very little. We would not declare war on Britian. Indeed all we could really do is express to the British how disappointed we are with them. Now, if the same scenario played out while the terminals were under the control of Dubai; we would turn that country into an unusable land mass for the next 3000 years. It seems to me Dubai has a much greater interest in not allowing anything dangerous through the terminals than the British ever did.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
Jack - I know nothing about VA hospitals, except for living down the block from one for a year, and interacting with the wives of patients there, since two had moved to the complex to be close to their husbands in the hospital.
but US News and World Reports recent hospital-system ranking put them pretty high up and then in a later issue, published letters from people that had written in to thank USNews(etc) for acknowleding the improvements the VA Hospital system had made over the years.
I also would have thought like you in regard to VA Hospitals, so that all surprised me abit.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
72John:
I am sure your math problem is making a point; just not sure what. If I pay $6.00 for a half-pounder, but pay only $2.25 for a quarter pounder, then yes, I’m better off. On the other hand, if I own 1 1/2 pounds of fresh meat and someone takes that from me and gives me 1 pound of fresh meat…well I think that is self-explanatory. But if I own 1 1/2 pounds of rancid meat and someone gives me a pound of fresh grade A beef, I’m better off there.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
you would be OK with 250K?
see, when you use it, it is worth something. LOL
By Gob
March 8, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
Jack - Let me make sure i am really understanding what you are saying. When i said it is logical that elective surgery be given a lower priority than a procedure that could be life-saving, you said you didnt buy that?
The logical outcome of that argument is that if you arrive at a hospital because you want some elective surgery, but a person in a much more serious condition arrives after you, you should still be treated first. I mean you did get there first, right? No one should get to cut in line. I know this is an extreme example, but your logic, if followed out, leads to this kind of situation.
Elective surgery being given lower priority isnt sociolistic, it is human decenency.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
Too close to lunch for that question John.
Kim Darling, what has the gov’t ever run that isn’t f—-ed up?
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
Mara, my hero! I’ve been spouting this simple message for YEARS! We must ask: Freedom for WHOM? Do my private actions affect other people? Yes or no? Do those executives’ actions affect a community, the economy, the environment, and the lives of dozens or hundreds of people? Yes or no? Whom do we regulate?
Let’s fly up to Washington and smack the DNC around until they get this message right. Want to?
By RF
March 8, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
Mara- you and Chilao are obviously drinking from the same coffee pot!!LOL You’re cracking me up!
Jack- it’s worth $250k?? Mrs. Jack must be a very happy woman.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
JACK! ROTLMAO re chucks “jimmy” only being worth 250k!! Can’t wait to see if he responds. LOL!!
By The72John
March 8, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this
I was really being metaphorical, and a little facetious as well. Had those factors been relevant, I would certainly have mentioned them.
To be a little more literal: If the quantity of jobs remains constant, or even increases slightly, but the quality of those jobs decreases, what is the net effect on the economy?
Certain parties who shall remain nameless have suggested that the unemployment rate alone should reflect the health of the economy, without taking into consideration other factors. For instance, declining real incomes , or the fact that most of the growth that HAS been seen has been a result in the increase of benefit costs than wage earnings.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this
RF - I think Jack let us know it was worth alot more than that. It is an acceptable cap of $250K when you don’t use it. LOL
By Nikita
March 8, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
Ah, tort reform. The stupid argument that will not die.
Tort reform is nothing but a very disingenuous attempt to remove the only form of accountability that exists for medical providers.
Proof lies in the fact that medical errors and malpractice are quite common — the commission that put together HIPAA determined that at the time they were either the 5th or 8th leading cause of death in the united states, depending on how you interpret the data. Now, an analysis of the medical profession shows that this is a case of bad apples — a very small number of doctors account for most cases. But they are not disciplined effectively or at all in most cases by the body which is supposed to self-police. Punishment for a hospital or other organization is even less likely. So…litigation is the most effective means of addressing this issue. And in fact according to the HIPAA commission, we’re lucky we don’t see MORE lawsuits.
An argument for tort reform is that it reduces insurance costs — this isn’t actually true, however. Long-term studies show that there is no relationship at all between malpractice awards and premiums.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
The unemployment figures are misleading, since they do not accomodate people who have given up looking for work or have had their unemployment benefits expire. Many have simply joined either the underground economy or become ‘self employed’, often in the form of ‘under employment’.
By Nikita
March 8, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
P.S. Any amount recommended as a cap is inadequate when you get into a situation where a patient is permanently maimed or killed. I’m sure you can imagine the medical costs borne by a quadriplegic, for example, over a lifetime — and I’d like to hear why you think the patient who was thus harmed should be given no way to recoup his losses and therefore be forced to bear the brunt himself or fall upon public funding.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
Mara…excellent observation about the differences in view. What is interesting about it is that conservatives are supposed to be the group who believes in personal responsibility and a government limited to the basic functions listed in the Constitution. What isn’t in that document or even most State Constitutions is the carte blanche empowerment of the government to restrict personal behaviors yet that seems to be the conservative approach to issues these days. It’s almost like dealing with an individual who has multiple personality disorder but doesn’t know it…”To whom am I speaking at the moment?”
Jack…national health care doesn’t necessarily mean having the government control access to health care providers. Look at Medicaid/Medicare for example. This does not restrict one’s ability to go to another doctor for a procedure in the same fashion that a Veteran MUST go to the VA Hospital. What it does control is how much will be paid for the services and what services will be covered. In either case the rates of adminstrative overhead for government health programs are less than the admin costs charged by private industry. I don’t have time at the moment to look up the figures, but I want to say that they are about half. That translates into oodles of dollars saved.
Here’s a question for the group and I’d especially like to hear from the conservatives…SHOULD health care be a for profit business rather than a Non-Profit (with a non-profit meaning break even rather than charitable)? Is it morally appropriate to make a profit on health care and/or to put non-profit health care providers out of business in order to guarantee a customer base?
The reason I ask is that it appears that the rise of for profit health providers has happened in conjunction with a decline in non-profit providers such as ‘charity hospitals’ whose goal was to cover their costs rather than make a profit. As non-profits have been purchased/converted or closed by for profit organizations general access to health care and specifically preventive care has decreased. This is most noted in the closings of hospitals in more rural location thereby making it harder for this portion of the population to recieve care. As noted yesterday there are only 9 free/charitable clinics in the entire state of GA.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
In the interests of full disclosure, I must admit that I have consumed more than the recommended daily allowance of caffeinated beverages. In fact, I sorta feel like Bungholio…and speaking of ol’ Beavis and his trip in, er, I mean, to..Washington…Kimmy, the DNC is being sabotaged by the DLC. Howard gets it, but I’m not sure Hillary does.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
72J
Being a newbie to this forum, I wasn’t aware of the background concerning this issue. The questions you raise are, in my opinion, answered solely dependent on two factors: 1) what political party is in office, 2) what political party you (in a general sense) affiliate with. If you are a Bush fan, quantity trumps quality. If you are not, well, vice versa. I don’t honestly know whether there is a right or wrong answer to that question. I can see the benefit of earning $25k rather than earning $0, even if my previous salary was $70k (using made up numbers) :) I can also see the downside of that situation as well. Convincing someone that in the vast majority of cases, earning something is worse than earning nothing, again in my opinion, is difficult if not impossible. After all, the “proof” is anecdotal and proven on an individual situation for both sides of the position. The “ideal” would be to live and spend for economic bad times so that when bad times come (and they will), you can float on your savings for a time. Hmm…seems like there’s a fable about that principle…something about ants and grasshoppers…
By RF
March 8, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Chilao— ROFL!!! I guess it’s been a while for me, so I’m thinking 250 is an awful lot!! I’d consider that an acceptable cap at the current rate of usage I have! LOLOL
Unemployment figures never encompass the whole picture. Having a job is different from making a living. You can be working for $6 an hour and have a job, thus reducing the unemployment rate. Double that money and you’re close to making a living. Seems to me, and this is only an opinion, but it seems that the number of people working for less than living wages is growing instead of shrinking. Further proof that while profits increase, average wages don’t. So we’re actually working harder to maintain less while the wealthy at the top are raking in more. Seems this kind of shortsighted profit raking happened in the 1920’s didn’t it??!
By chuck
March 8, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
NetB, if you read my post from yesterday I as much as said that. Tort reform is ONE step. I think a more basic step is that each one of us should take charge of our own healthcare. Why don’t we shop price with doctors like we do with car dealerships? Why don’t we question whether or not certain expensive tests are necessary? I’ll tell you why…because we are going to pay the same amount regardless…our deductible and copay. Most of us don’t even look at the bill. My wife had outpatient surgery a few years ago and when I got the statement from the insurance company I almost stroked out. 3 hours in the hospital and the bill was over $16,000. I made them send me an itemized bill and I found nearly $7500.00 in DOUBLE charges. BTW, the insurance company didn’t even thank me. I hate insurance companies and I hate lawyers (except my own).
Another problem is that 10% of the cost for treatment comes about as a result of “defensive” medicine. That should read “doctors’ CYA.” Tort reform can help there as well. Healthcare issues are not going to be solved overnight and tort reform won’t be an end-all cure-all, but it is a start.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 12:08 PM | Link to this
Mara, totally with you! (Let’s go smack her, and then have lunch with Bill.) Also, “B&B Do America” is one of my FAVORITE all-time movies! Come to Butthead… HAHAHAHA!
By Brian Curtis
March 8, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this
Mara: That’s a fantastic point that deserves to be trumpeted from the rooftops.
“Liberals believe people should be free and corporations should be regulated; conservatives believe the opposite.”
I’m not saying frivolous suits aren’t a problem; but going after them with “tort reform” is the wrong solution. I’d give more credence to a loser-pays proposal than to the blatant pro-corporate, pro-insurance agenda of the tort reformers.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
Gob. I was referring to the difficulty in scheduling elective surgery. of course they will save a life over a nose job.
What are you a gob of? Sugar?
By The72John
March 8, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this
I wasn’t speaking anecdotally, Charles, nor was I refering to an individual - I was speaking of a nationwide economic trend.
Obviously, on an individual level a person confronted with A) Earning nothing or B) Earning something is going to choose B.
However, when the national trend is that salaries decline, that’s not good for the health of the economy. It’s not really a partisan issue - declining wages have a deleterious effect on the overal economy.
By RF
March 8, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
Net- Medicare/Medicaid isn’t all bad, but the selection of doctors is somewhat limited. I found that out when I first had the boys and needed a pediatrician. As wards of the state they qualify for Medicaid. But, not all doctors accept it, and many procedures are limited or not offered. I eventually added them to my insurance because Medicaid has continued to cut medicines from its list to try to balance the budget. Look at TennCare (Tennessee’s Medicare/Medicaid). They went so far into the red they had to cut thousands from their rolls to balance. Because government funds change with the whim of political tides, I fear that gov’t. subsidized national healthcare would be subject to the same shifting tides, and I’m not sure I’m ready for that. I can’t stand to go to the pediatrician to find out that another medicine is off the list. If it weren’t for two insurances, my out of pocket costs would have risen well beyond my ability to pay. I can’t imagine what it must be like for those who have only Medicare/Medicaid to cover them.
By Gob
March 8, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this
Uh…I have a question…Is this a god dam?
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this
Kimberly I’m not sure the DNC is located in Washington, but I’d be happy to participate in said field trip regardless of location if only to capture the experience on film for you. Also, my physician is a personal friend of Howard Dean from their Yale days…maybe I could pull some strings to get us an audience with the Head Smackee.
By GOB
March 8, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
Jack - I understood what you were getting at, but when my original post said that elective surgery should get a lower priority than a life-saving procedure, you said that it sounded too socialist and that you didn’t buy it. Just being devil’s advocate based on your response.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
Netbanker, I’d like to offer a response to your question with some questions.
Should colleges operate on a non-profit basis? After all, studies generally show that a college education translates to higher earning potential. Several smart but lower-income students skip college because they can’t afford it. Or if they attend college, they graduate with debt up to their eyeballs because college tuition costs exponentially increase every year much more so than inflation.
Should attorneys operate on a non-profit basis? After all, as Mr. Orenthal Simpson and (maybe) William Campbell can attest, a high priced lawyer(s) can spell the difference between checking off tee times at golf clubs or checking off a calendar in the big house. The evidence of overzealous prosecutors wrongly convicting people, especially pre-DNA testing, is proven day after day. What about those who would not be in prison if they had a good attorney for free?
Should automobile manufacturers build cars on a non-profit basis. After all, the high end cars are more likely to have state of the art safety measures. There may be some who, with the absence of profit at all stages, could afford cars they could not afford otherwise.
My point is — and there is a point — if we make a change to one industry for “affordability,” what is to prevent changes to other industries for the same reason? The problem with this scenario is that…well to put it simply…the motivation of money, drive some to put in the long hours it takes to become a doctor, pilot, attorney, pharmacist, etc. Taking that motivation out might (and I stress might) lead some not to pursue these career paths. After all, if I can make $50,000 working 8hrs a day, why should I work 14 hrs a day to make $50,000 (plus be subject to lawsuits to boot!) Again, I am using round made up numbers so don’t get hung up on the $50k. My point is admittedly unoriginal. George Orwell wrote the same thing in Animal Farm. There are always going to be some who want to be “more equal” than others. Doctors, I believe, really want to help others. But so do many other professions that don’t take 12+ years of higher education to accomplish. Removing the reward of lucrative pay for those who sacrifice for so long, plus adding personal liability for mistakes, could drive many people from wanting to practice medicine. And that could lead to the question where can I get health services, let alone who will pay for health services?
By RF
March 8, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
Mara-Howard gets it, but I’m not sure Hillary does.
I think Hillary’s problem is that she hasn’t ‘gotten any’ in a while. I’ve yet to see what looked like a genuine smile from her in years!!
By chuck
March 8, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this
The Economic Outlook
The Congressional Budget Office forecasts that in 2005 and 2006, the U.S. economy will continue to expand at a healthy pace. Although investment by businesses is not expected to grow as rapidly as it did in 2004, such spending will probably still lead the economy’s continuing expansion. Moreover, the caution that has characterized firms’ decisionmaking over the past three years appears to be dissipating, and businesses seem to be having greater difficulty meeting increases in demand with their current workforce. As a result, hiring should accelerate. Productivity growth, which has been exceptionally strong since 2001, is expected to slow relative to its rate in the recent past; nevertheless, CBO anticipates that such growth will continue at a pace that is similar to its long-run average. Over the 2005-2015 period, real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product is expected to expand at an average annual rate of 3.1 percent.
A variety of factors, however, could lead to growth over the next 10 years that differs from CBO’s best estimate. Cyclical factors—those deriving from the business cycle—are one potential source of risk to the outcomes that CBO envisions. Others include the confidence of businesses and investors, the growth of foreign economies, and the level of stock prices, each of which could be more or less buoyant than CBO expects. Beyond those risks, the accuracy of CBO’s forecast of conditions over the next two years is subject to the uncertainty that surrounds the economy’s response to world energy prices, the war on terrorism, the exchange value of the dollar, and events elsewhere in the world.
Looking to the medium term (from 2007 to 2015), productivity could continue to grow rapidly, permitting greater growth of output, income, and profits. Alternatively, productivity could grow at a below-average rate over the next few years, reversing its extraordinary recent advances and resulting in a lower level of GDP and income than CBO now anticipates.
Overview of CBO’s Two-Year Forecast The economy is in the midst of a business-cycle expansion with solid gains expected in output, employment, and income. Growth of real GDP was an estimated 3.9 percent in 2004 (measured on a fourth-quarter-over-fourth-quarter basis), slightly slower than the 4.4 percent rate posted in 2003. But businesses appear to have thrown off some of the caution that marked the recovery from the 2001 recession and the subsequent expansion, and in the latter part of 2004, the growth of employment in particular picked up noticeably. In addition, investment by businesses swelled, rising from its 9 percent annual rate of increase in 2003 to a pace of nearly 12 percent in 2004. Those trends portend further growth during the near-term forecast period.
Although real GDP during the past two years grew at a rate faster than its historical trend, a considerable amount of “slack,” or excess capacity, remained in the economy at the end of 2004, leaving room for further growth without increasing inflationary pressures. Thus, CBO expects that during the forecast period, GDP will grow faster than potential GDP, rising at a rate of about 3.8 percent, on average, before slowing during the 2007-2015 period to a pace of 2.9 percent (see Table 2-1).(1) In that projection, the gap that exists between GDP and CBO’s estimate of potential GDP is largely closed by the end of 2007. CBO does not attempt to predict the course of the business cycle beyond the two-year forecast horizon. Consequently, once that output gap has closed, GDP is projected to grow at the same rate as potential GDP.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this
Welcome, Charles.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this
Democratic National Committee 430 S. Capitol St. SE Washington, DC 20003
By chuck
March 8, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
EXACTLY Charles.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
72John
I did not say you were speaking anecdotally. I said the basis for answering your question was dependent on your political perspective. Btw, I understood your question to be in sum “what is the relationship of quantity of jobs over quality of jobs on the economy?”
I agree that if the national trend of salaries is declining, that can, in the long run, have a negative effect on the economy. Your premise that the national trend of salaries is declining, I believe, is based on your political perspective (or that of people who have a anti-Bush political perspective). I may be wrong, but it’s not the first nor the last time that will happen.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
For the rest of the economic projections go here:
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=6060&sequence=3
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
Thanks Just Being Me! :)
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
NetB, that would be COOOOOL! Actually I admire Howard because he has the ‘nads to call it like he sees it and not back down. The people I REALLY want to smack are the spineless, good-puppy a— kissers who say, “Howard doesn’t speak for all of us…” Well, he does indeed speak for me!
By Jack
March 8, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
Gob. Are you a gob of sugar and spice and everything nice? or snails and puppy-dog tails?
By Martin
March 8, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
A little research (GOOGLE Dubai Ports World (DPW) for some interesting reading) will show that DPW all ready runs ports around the world. The US imports a lot of items through some of those ports operated by DPW. As has been stated many times, very few of the containers entering the US are inspected. We are all ready at risk and it is all about $$$$$$$.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
Charles, the difference between the health care industry and those examples you chose, education and legal, is that health care can (and often is) a matter of life and death.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this
sigh.
Here’s just ONE NON-partisan report outlining the recent economic trend I mentioned. While the average knee-jerk conservative partisan no doubt hangs on every word written or spoken by the supremely biased talking heads of the Bush administration, intelligent people look to multiple disinterested sources to get the real picture.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
hey kim, ya think we’d have a better chance of lunching with Bill if I brought along my hypothetical daughter? lol!? Netbanker wants to come along, so it looks like we got ourselves a ROADTRIP!! wooohooo (cue soundtrack - Born to be Wild…) lol!!
By chuck
March 8, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this
Car safety isn’t Mara?
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this
Yes, I should have added in my comment about unemployment stats being misleading that that has held true for a longer period of time than any one administration. many go unreported in the national and regional unemployment figures.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this
No, Charles…it’s based on objective data. My distaste for the Bush administration has nothing to do with my ability to read and interpret economic and financial data.
You’re a lawyer - I’m an MBA. See, neither of us is stupid.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
I think a more basic step is that each one of us should take charge of our own healthcare. Why don’t we shop price with doctors like we do with car dealerships? Why don’t we question whether or not certain expensive tests are necessary? I’ll tell you why…because we are going to pay the same amount regardless…our deductible and copay.
Well, Chuck, herein lies a BIG problem. I think it’s not so much that we, as the consumer of the health care, will pay the same amount regardless, but that for most of us the insurance company controls WHO can perform the procedure so it’s not quite so possible to have insurance AND shop around. Unless one can pay the large difference between an in-network provider and an out-of-network provider that individual has little to no choice other than the insurance company approved docs. The rise of the PPO and HMO support have resulted in it being more difficult to choose a doctor independently.
I also think that low cost co-pays have resulted in people who have access to insurance using health care services more frequently than when BCBS had everyone cover the first $40-$50 of every visit. I’m basing this opinion on the observations of my mother who was a Head Nurse for a medical practice that converted to an HMO. She noted a significant rise in the numbers of people asking for appointments over a basic cold or runny nose or condition that they would have ridden out for 5 days to see if it resolved itself before calling the doctor. She also noted a rise in people wanting prescriptions for every cough, sniffle, or ache as soon as it was experienced. I suggest that overall quality of care has declined in favor of quantity.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
Mara:
Good point. You would agree, thought, not every aspect of health care is life and death. Putting a blanket “non-profit” over all aspects of medicine because some parts of it have life-or-death consequences may have unintended consequences. One could make the same argument about the practice of law…after all, a wrongfully convicted executed prisoner is just as dead as a rightfully convicted executed prisoner. If one took the same logic, i.e., we don’t want to kill innocent people and applied that blanket over the whole practice of law, it would be the same as saying we don’t want someone to die for lack of medical care, so nose jobs should be non-profit.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this
72John:
You’re making my point :)
Look at Chuck’s posts…they defend the economic numbers. I would hazard to guess that he supports Bush, at least as it concerns how the economy got to this point.
You, on the other hand, admit to “distaste” of the Bush administration. You believe the same economy is going down hill.
My point, which you have demonstrated admirably, is that how you view the economy largely depends on how you view the Bush administration. That’s all. You’re not stupid, unpatriotic or whatever. You have a different viewpoint. I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about that…
By Jack
March 8, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this
Mara thinks I have a problem with D.I.N.K.s. I love them. My Dear Mara I was the devil’s advocate the other day. Let me ask you this: Do you see anything wrong with what Bill and Monica did? If not I have another question for you. :)
By Mara
March 8, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this
what’s up, chuck?! It’s true that auto safety might be a matter of life and death if you get into an accident. But not being able to afford a car will NOT. Cars are a luxury that we’ve gotten used to and have come to rely on. Health care is a necessity, not a luxury. Big difference. Sooner or later, everyone needs a doctor.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
72john, UNBIASED?!? I don’t think so!
The Miami Herald referred to EPI as a “liberal, independent think tank.” Niala Boodhoo, who wrote the piece, didn’t explain what she meant by that, nor did she include a similar “conservative, independent think tank” in her report. She did, however, get response from Republican Gov. Jeb Bush’s office. The Chicago Tribune took a wiser tack and called EPI a “liberal think tank” and naturally sought a response from The Heritage Foundation.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Charles:
I was arguing a specific point - that wages overall are not increasing, but are in fact DECREASING in relation to inflation. Any economist will tell you that a trend of falling wages is, in the long run, not beneficial.
The trend of falling wages is not an opinion. It is based on hard numbers. Contrary to the current popular belief, not everything is based on one’s opinion - there are actual facts.
I also use non-partisan, unbiased sources to obtain this data - non-partisan think tanks, reports from the various Feds, etc.
My interpretation of that data may, as you say, be influenced by my political affiliation, though I suggest it is more influenced by my philosophical outlook. However, my facts are not influenced by that philosophy - they are cold, hard, and purely objective.
By the way - of COURSE Chuck’s posts support the economy. They are cut-and-pastes from the White House. Chuck is incappable of making his own points and relies exclusively on the works of others. That’s also my point - you can hardly expect the White House to paint a gloomy picture of the economy, no matter it’s condition. I’m sure that, had the internet existed at the time, Herbert Hoover’s administration would have been waxing eloquently about the state of affairs, too.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this
Mara, your so-called argument is as usual, INANE. As most of the left does, you always go to the worst case scenario FIRST. They call it the “worst case” for a reason. If it happened all of the time it would be the NORM.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this
Hey Chuck - why don’t you go back to quoting nonsensical biblical websites and leave the real thinking to people who don’t have their heads up their butts?
What does it say about your (unattributed, of course) copy-and-paste that it came from a conservative website? You wouldn’t know unbiased if it moved in with you, your abused wife and your in-the-closet son.
Cut-and-paste, Chuck…cut-and-paste.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
….how you view the economy largely depends on how you view the Bush administration
Charles, if I may suggest, you might have that backwards. I know a few life-long Republicans (I’m not one myself) who view the Bush administration negatively because of the economy, the deficit, and biggest misuse of fiscal responsibility in our nation’s history. There are millions of independent voters in this country who cheer for neither “side,” but rather, look to the results of an administration’s work when deciding how favorably they view the people in charge. Further, do you really think Chuck would have gone to great lengths “defending” our economy if he WEREN’T a Bush-worshipping zealot? Is it really the economy he’s defending, or his golden calf… I mean son of a rich man… I mean President.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
Off-topic - I saw another blog on the web where Chuck was playing the innocent victim and complaining about the incivility of others. He said that he was often the target of rudeness online, and just COULDN’T understand WHY people got so upset at him.
Poor widdle chuckie…
By chuck
March 8, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
72john, All the points I make ARE MINE. They are supported by the sources that I bring in. In the real world that is called research. In your world you jump on an out of context interpretation and claim it to “PROVE” your point. I make my point and when questioned, pull up source after source after source to support what I’ve said. DEAL WITH IT. You don’t know ANYTHING about history, politics OR economics. Any fool knows that EPI is a liberal group. For once, do your homework. They have been around for ages.
As for my support of GW? It has been waning for the past couple of years. He’s spending money like a drunken sailor and it needs to stop. He does appoint a good Supreme Court Justice though. Oh, and I sure don’t want the war against terror fought by the likes of Hilary. We’ll go give them all a flower and sing pretty songs to them. NO THANKS.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
Jack, I’m not sure why you think that I think you have a problem with DINKs. I think you are a perfectly lovely person that I occasionally, though not always, disagree with. As for Bill and Monica, as I said before, I think the whole situation was nobodys business except for Bill, Hill, and Monica. That being said, I personally have never, and would never, cheat. I would not hang with a cheater, abet a cheater, or cover up for a cheater. Having been on the recieving end (ex-boyfriend, not hubby…), I know how much emotional pain one experiences in that situation. I could not inflict that on anyone else, nor could I be friends with someone who would. The only thing that made the situation half-way bearable was that he was fairly discrete and I was able to handle it privately.
Hopefully that answers both yours and chucks curiosity on the matter.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this
72John:
As I stated several posts earlier, as a newbie to this discussion, I did not know what point you were trying to make. I was mainly responding to the question you posed.
Of course, data can say almost anything you want it to say. However, if it is a fact that “wages overall are not increasing, but are in fact DECREASING in relation to inflation,” I agree that “a trend of falling wages is, in the long run, not beneficial.” In other words, just in case it got lost in translation, I agree with the conclusion drawn from the facts you state.
However, I still believe I am correct in my belief that there is a high statistical correlation between a person’s belief that the economy is going backwards and the likelihood that that same person has a “distaste” with the Bush administration. And vice versa.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
Charles…The example of a college would more appropriately marry up to private insurance that can be purchased on top of a minimal guaranteed coverage since our nation DOES provide a minimal level of education (12 years worth) for all citizens.
In terms of the motivation of money, drive some to put in the long hours it takes to become a doctor, pilot, attorney, pharmacist, etc. Taking that motivation out might (and I stress might) lead some not to pursue these career paths a not-for-profit model does not mean that high salaries can not be paid to these professionals. It simply means that one’s goal is not to charge more than it cost to deliver the services and those salaries are part of that cost structure. My neighbor just finished her residency and accepted a job with a not-for-profit hospital in Denver for $230,000 yr.
It is in the nation’s best interest to have as healthy a population as possible just as it is to have an educated one. Why do we provide for education, but not health care?
Your example of comparing health care to an auto manufacturer doesn’t work because one has the choice of numerous forms of transportation as an alternative to BUYING a car such as renting an auto, borrowing an auto, public transport (which could be bus, train, light rail, street car), bicycle, walking, rollerblading, motorcycle, scooter, moped. Do we really have the same numbers of choices in health care?
By chuck
March 8, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
Nice try john but you can’t hide the fact that you quoted a BIASED source and didn’t even know it. Attacking me personally isn’t going to change that fact.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this
chunk, what are you talking about?! What “worst case scenario”? That sooner or later everyone has to go to the doctor? That’s not “worst case” doofus, it’s callled reality.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this
Kimberly,
I have absolutely no doubt that you are correct in there being dissatisfaction among Repubs with GWB. My point was in a general sense…you will find few Democrats lauding the Bush administration’s handling of the economy, just as you will find few Repubs giving Clinton any credit for the economy under his watch. Independents…well, they are the ones both parties hammer with negativity about the other. :) Independents are harder to classify because they are, well, independent.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
that couldn’t be the same Chuck?????? LOL
Are there any computer geeks on here? I have a major problem. I know it’s off topic, but it Wednesday?? That’s our rule, I thought lol.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this
“I think you are a perfectly lovely person that I occasionally, though not always, disagree with.”
Ditto.
By Sandy
March 8, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this
Someone just gave me a flower and reminded me that today is International Women’s Day (March 8). This day celebrates the story of ordinary women making history; it’s rooted in the centuries-old struggle of women to participate in society on an equal footing with men. We celebrate Lysistrata initiating a sexual strike against men in order to end war in ancient Greece. We celebrate Parisian women calling for “liberty, equality, fraternity” during the French Revolution and marching on Versailles to demand women’s suffrage. We remember and celebrate Sufferagists in the U.S. chaining themselves to federal buildings, being attacked in America’s streets, sentenced to prison and force fed (which caused the death of some of those women) during their hunger strikes because they wanted the vote for women! This is a day marked by women’s groups around the world, commemorated at the United Nations, and designated in many countries as a national holiday. This is a day when all women, although we are divided by national boundaries and by ethnic, linguistic, cultural, economic and political differences, come together to celebrate our Day. So, although it is ignored for the most part in this country, where the first International Women’s Day was celebrated in 1909, I’d like to wish you all a Happy International Women’s Day!
By FatMoose
March 8, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this
Renee,
Having been in systems and help-desk support before, I will try to answer your question.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this
You’re so right Chuck…I know absolutely nothing. If that makes you happy. And you make your own points! Even though a review of everything you’ve posted will show that you do nothing but cut-and-paste. And you think Dinosaurs were on the Ark, too, don’t you Chuck?
In your world you jump on an out of context interpretation and claim it to “PROVE” your point. I make my point and when questioned, pull up source after source after source to support what I’ve said. DEAL WITH IT
Are you sure you aren’t talking about your world, Chuck? And…really…you are about as unbiased as the Klan.
Guess who’s more qualified to discuss the economy between you and me, Chuck? It isn’t you, middle school teacher.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this
Hang on there Chuck and Charles…the focus of 72J’s posts have been the REAL income growth has not followed the same trends in economic growth or profit growth or productivity. Salaries have remained fairly stagnant while the profit slice of the money pie is getting bigger as is the corporate executive compensation slice. This stagnation is not keeping up with inflation which means that many Americans are effectively earning less in real dollars. John also is saying that the quality of a job is a factor that needs to be considered. The services sector is seeing the largest growth in employment, but these jobs do not pay as well. Without corrective action for salaries there will be a ripple effect throughout the economy as people have less income to spend on products.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
Nice try john but you can’t hide the fact that you quoted a BIASED source and didn’t even know it. Attacking me personally isn’t going to change that fact.
You can call it biased all you want, Chuck…as with everything else you say, repetition doesn’t make it any more valid. You Limbaugh-clones think that you can call anything you don’t like “liberal”, but the world doesn’t actually work that way.
And you’re right - attacking you personally just makes me feel better. You know, because you are human garbage and all.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
Netbanker
I concede that an auto manufacturer is not a 1-1 comparison to health care in America. But I believe that the provision of health care through free government clinics is similar to that of public education. Free clinics are understaffed, not funded very well and the quality of service is generally not as good as you would get from a private entity. Substitute “free clinics” with “public schools” and the same would apply.
As far as your friend with the $230k salary, that number in itself is not of high importance as it would depend on what other residents in her classification were making, what the cost of living in Denver is, etc. If other residents are making $375k, $230k is selling herself “short” by comparison. Again, I don’t want to get hung up on numbers, just the principle.
Is it in the nation’s best interest to have a healthy population? There is a macabre bonus to some level of sickness in mortuary, health care, pharmacy and other industries. Early death saves in Social Security, insurance and retirement benefits. I’m not saying health care should not be provided to citizens, but I question whether the country is “better off” with a fully healthy population.
My point is not that health care should not be made non-profit. (whew, double negative!). Perhaps making a portion of health care non-profit may be useful. Perhaps emergency rooms or general practitioners can be non-profit, while “elective” procedures can be for profit. The question remains whether making these changes will significantly negatively affect the number of physicians available to provide health care to those who need it.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
RF…what you’ve experience with your boys is the same thing I’ve experience with my private insurance. They have changed the formulary numerous times and we’ve been caught in that pinch twice. In one case the covered meds work just fine, but in another they do not so we’re now forced to pay out the wazoo for a med that was covered for 3.5 years and suddenly isn’t. Our access to doctors is also restricted to the approved providers. Sure we can go out of network, but we’re stuck with the costs. It’s the same game just different players. What is really screwed up about the whole Medicaid thing is that as a nation we provide health care to those who make basically nothing, but as soon as you make barely enough to cover food and shelter we strip that coverage right away. Why do we cover those who really are not contributing to society, but don’t make sure those who are or are trying to improve their lot in life have guaranteed minimal care? This is the conundrum.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
Charles, I certainly agree that it’s not every medical situation that is life and death. In fact, I could even go so far as to say that certain aspects of medicine, like (non-reconstructive) plastic surgery should be driven by demand. However, though an illness or complaint may not be life-threatening at the time, they certainly may be warning signs of significant risk. Because of the cost, most people won’t go to the doctor until the illness becomes serious. Preventative healthcare has been shown to decrease health care costs and prolong life. So, economically and humanitarily, ensuring that everyone can get the healthcare they need makes more sense than the every-man-for-himself approach we’re using now.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this
Can’t get the thought of a road trip with Kim & Mara. Got to fight it. Damn where is that fan. :)
By Renee
March 8, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
Okay here’s my problem. I was on my computer last night and a really funk error message came up. Don’t remember really what it said but it did tell me if this is the first time seeing this error message then restart your machine, or something to that effect. So I restart my computer. Now it won’t reboot…It just gives me a message to hit F1 to reboot or F2 for system utilities.
I think it’s the hard drive. I don’t know much about hard drives. Like the difference between external and internal (except the obvious diffence) and whether all hard drives can go into all machines etc…
Any help will be MUCH appreciated.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this
Yes, I teach social studies (economics is one of the social science courses I am certified to teach) you moron. Aren’t you a drama queen? Nice touch making up the “MBA”. I almost spit my sandwich out I was laughing so hard. Isn’t it about time for your shift at McDonald’s to start?
Charles his actual degree is in “Theater”. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Mara I was referring to the case of the missing uterus that you fabricated earlier.
AND, BTW, there were dinosaurs on the ark and I have yet to hear your MATHEMATICAL refutation of the article that I posted that you always refer to.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
The ‘handling’ of the economy by a President is simply spinning the facts to paint the best picture possible for their own advantage. A sitting President has little to no power to affect the economy during their presidency. Any impact they do have will be in the form of influence on longer term trends put in motion by market forces. Please note the use of influence which is not the same as affecting a change.
By GOB
March 8, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
Jack - I am male…married, no kids, but a dog…
By The72John
March 8, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this
Please forgive me, Charles - I lose all ability to be rational and calm with Chuck. He hates me because he says God tells him to, and I hate him because he hates me for no good reason. Makes sense, hmm?
Anyway - moving on.
Are you being so coldly pragmatic about health care because you’re playing Devil’s Advocate, or are you a Social Darwinist type?
I’ve heard the “let the weak die off” argument before, but I don’t buy it. One, because there are many people whose minds and intellectual contributions far outstrip their physical ones; and two, because I think it weakens our basic humanity and decency to allow suffering and death to continue if it’s in our power to stop it.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
Ok Gob. Nice to know the gender of who I am blogging with.
Charles. Welcome to the fray.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 02:03 PM | Link to this
Chuck, you silly twi, you are aware that people can have more than one degree, yes?
BA - Theatre BA - Business MBA
Thats…one…two…three….three degrees, ah ah ah.
Why would I bother debunking mythology, Chuck? It’s FICTION, you credulous hillbilly.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Off-topic - I saw another blog on the web where Chuck was playing the innocent victim and complaining about the incivility of others. He said that he was often the target of rudeness online, and just COULDN’T understand WHY people got so upset at him.
ROFLMBO!!!!! I saw that, too, John. I think it was Monday, when W2W wasn’t up and running yet. HILARIOUS!!!!
By Charles
March 8, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Mara:
You and I probably agree on the medical issue than we disagree. I agree that people should have a standard of care for health care services. However, I don’t support the idea that I should exercise fiscal discipline so that the government can seize my money to pay for those who choose not to exercise fiscal discipline. Most times, absent mental illness or some personal misfortune, people are in the situation they create.
For example, when I was younger, I used to visit Circuit City so much the salespeople knew my name. It gave me much happiness to own the latest gadget. However, when it came time for me to pay the piper, also known as First National Bank, I wasn’t very happy. Once I extracted myself from that pit (and I’m still digging), I vowed to change my spending habits. Why should you, Mara, or anyone else pay for me to have medical care when I took my own money and blew it on an XBox 360? What financial standards do you think should apply to those seeking “free” medical care at these non-profits?
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this
Free clinics are understaffed, not funded very well and the quality of service is generally not as good as you would get from a private entity. I agree completely. Accessibility is an issue for health care that doesn’t apply to education and that concerns me. There are many in the ranks of the uninsured who would choose preventive care if they could and in the long run our nation would likely see the overall cost of health care impacted in a positive way. As with anything it is generally less expensive to perform maintenance than to wait until something breaks down completely.
Please don’t take my questions to mean that I condone a blanket non-profit system for health care. I’m just trying to stir up some thought. I do not believe that a fully healthy population is even possible, but I do believe that our current situation costs far more (lost productivity, lost wages, increases in welfare) than most people consider.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
Another DODGE, john hey but at least you can ACT like you are smart.
By Jack
March 8, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
Chuck. It is not good blog manners to trash other posters to the new folks who graciously join in. If someone is a snot, let the new person find out for themselves. You are the one who interjects so much angst to the forum. 4 hours in time out for you.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
I’m no mathematician, but I’d have a hard time accepting ANY equation that (1) puts dinosaurs on an ark… well, at least not if dinosaurs were really as large as my 3rd grade teacher told me they were (and as large as all those skeletons at the museum); and (2) tries to show that dinosaurs were even in existence during the building of the ark. Didn’t dinosaurs live and become extinct a gazillion years ago? Again, I’m no mathematician…
And, John… I’m not liking the snide way that you’re referring to the secondary school teaching profession… that’s so not cool.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this
Renee - could be a drive, could be a virus. if disk ade for IDE(as opposed to SCSI), most are the same. fit-wise.
probably fried your drive.
By RF
March 8, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this
Net- so right about the sitting president. Hence we have such wonderful creations as NCLB, which will likely plague us for the next ten years or so!!!
Luckily, I’ve never had the problems with private insurance you mentioned. Sounds just like Medicaid, only run by a for profit company!!
I do see a trend developing of companies offering options to uninsured or self-employed people. It is possible, albeit fairly expensive, to have some health insurance even if one isn’t offered it through work. I have a feeling this is a precursor to what will become a national health plan for those who fall in the ‘barely surviving’ income bracket. I certainly hope so. While I don’t want to give up my private healthcare, I would like to see a government backed, privately offered health insurance for those making between 0 and 40k a year, with rates according to income. Nice to dream, isn’t it??
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this
‘ade’ should have been ‘made’
By Charles
March 8, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
72John
Yes, I am playing Devil’s Advocate. I personally don’t think that there should be no floor for people to land on if they fall to “rock bottom.” What that floor is made of, and who builds it is where I probably fall inbetween Dems and Repubs.
And, 72J, I am a Christian and I know of NO Bible verse that demands a Christian hate another individual. I do know of people who use the Bible to justify their own hatreds and prejudices. Before the flames start, I am not specifying any specific person. I am just stating the (sad) obvious.
And, Jack, thanks. :)
By The72John
March 8, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
It’s not a dodge, Chuck…tell me why I would waste my time on a piece of absurd fiction?
And Jack’s right, you know. We were quite fine until you stuck your bigoted, hate-mongering little nose into the conversation.
Do the world a favor and put a bullet through your skull.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Charles…last point was that the basis of my original question regarding for vs nonprofit was MORALLY even though we’ve been discussing the PRACTICALITY or REALITY of a non-profit model. Since most conservatives on this blog also identify themselves as christians and Christ said to care for the sick, I was looking for insight into their moral position on the topic and to guage whether their positions were ultimately based on their faith or the political affiliation as these two appear to be at complete oddds.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Good comment Charles 2:06
By RF
March 8, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this
Net- The current situation cost me a day from work because I was up ALL night long in the emergency room, because soooo many had no other option and were willing to wait for care also. Multiply the number I saw (30 roughly) by the number of emergency rooms that night, and you have somewhere in the thousands who likely missed work and school the next day. But’s that supposed to be ‘adequate care’ for those who have no insurance. Not to mention the impact on those of us who DO have insurance and have to wait with them!!
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Renee- how commonly Redmondish of me, maybe you have a MAC, in which case I have no idea.
but still probably a fried drive.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Sorry JBM - didn’t mean to insult middle school teachers everywhere. There are many great ones out there. And then there’s Chuck.
My apologies.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Thanks Chilao. I was trying to figure out “ade”. I thought it was computer lingo lol. So basically, anything on the hard drive at this point would be lost??? And here’s the stupid question of the day. If I put in a new hard drive, I will have lost my operating system and it will need to be reloaded??
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Most times, absent mental illness or some personal misfortune, people are in the situation they create. To all who agree I suggest reading Barbara Ehrlich’s “Nickeled and Dimed” This book presents the realities of the working poor in a non-judgemental and non-biased manner. No solutions are offered, just an examination of how one often can not get out of a situation personally created or not.
By FatMoose
March 8, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Okay here’s my problem. I was on my computer last night and a really funk error message came up. Don’t remember really what it said but it did tell me if this is the first time seeing this error message then restart your machine, or something to that effect. So I restart my computer. Now it won’t reboot…It just gives me a message to hit F1 to reboot or F2 for system utilities.
Did you turn it off for a full 2min before restarting? If something is in memory corrupting things - it can remain there if not given enough time for discharge.
I think it’s the hard drive. I don’t know much about hard drives. Like the difference between external and internal (except the obvious diffence) and whether all hard drives can go into all machines etc…
Is there any info that prompts you to think it is the HD? Besides a few instances, any HD can drop into any machine.
If you have a boot disk - or can get someone with the same version of OS to make one for you it should get you into safemode where you can do some diagnostics (scandisk) OR to a dos prompt to do a checkdisk.
Any help will be MUCH appreciated.
Unfortunately with the limited info (can you recall what app you were in?) that is all the help I can provide.
Not to spook you - but I would be concerned about virus/spyware as a possibility also. Some of the nastier programs prompt you for a re-boot so they can write themselves to the boot sector of your drive, increasing the difficulty in removing them.
Hope that helps some.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Netbanker
I agree (to put it simply).
By Mara
March 8, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this
chuck, it wasn’t a uterus, it was my ovaries. (And I wouldn’t say that it was a “worst-case scenario”, since I’m not using ‘em anyway.) It was an illustration chuck. Medical errors happen all the time. And I think you are a bit simple not to realize it.
I know you are particularly proud of your cut-n-paste prowess, but I went ahead and googled “medical error” for you, found an insurance industry website (KaiserPermanente) and copied the very first paragraph…just for you.
“Attention to medical errors escalated over five years ago with the release of a study from the Institute of Medicine (IOM), To Err is Human, which found that between 44,000 and 98,000 Americans die each year in U.S. hospitals due to preventable medical errors. Hospital errors rank between the fifth and eighth leading cause of death, killing more Americans than breast cancer, traffic accidents or AIDS. Serious medication errors occur in the cases of five to 10 percent of patients admitted to hospitals. These numbers may understate the problem because they do not include preventable deaths due to medical treatments outside of hospitals. “
So really, if you think about it, having my ovaries removed instead of my tonsils may, in fact, NOT be the worst thing that could happen to me.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this
LOL…not a Mac Chilao.
John…I understand your frustration and anger, trust me I do…but the bullet through the skull?????
By chuck
March 8, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
On February 3, 2006, The Unemployment Rate Fell For The Second Straight Month. The unemployment rate fell to 4.7 percent - the lowest monthly rate since July 2001 and lower than the average of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. In January, the economy created 193,000 jobs and has created over 2 million jobs over the past 12 months, and more than 4.7 million since August 2003.
The Economy Is Strong And Continues To Grow
Consumers Are Confident. The Conference Board index of consumer confidence surpassed expectations and rose to 106.3 in January - the highest level in over three years. According to the Conference Board, the number of consumers saying that jobs are “plentiful” rose to its highest level in over four years. Additionally, the University of Michigan consumer sentiment index reflected strong consumer confidence. Incomes Increase. Real disposable incomes rose 0.4 percent in December and were up 1.4 percent for 2005. Since January 2001, real after-tax income per person has risen 7.9 percent. Real household net worth is at $51.1 trillion - an all-time high. Retail Sales Rise. Nominal retail sales rose 0.7 percent in December and are up 6.4 percent from 2004. In December, real consumer spending posted a solid 0.9 percent gain and increased 3.4 percent over the past year. Manufacturing Continues To Expand. The Institute for Supply Management (ISM), a private research group, reports manufacturing activity grew for the 32nd consecutive month in January. The ISM’s manufacturing index reading of 54.8 indicates continued sector expansion. According to the Federal Reserve, total industrial production increased a solid 0.6 percent in December and manufacturing industrial production is up 3.8 percent over the past 12 months. Durable Goods Orders Rise In December. New orders for durable goods surpassed expectations and increased 1.3 percent in December. New orders for machinery rose 6.5 percent - attaining the highest level since the series began in 1992. Over the past 12 months, new orders have increased 12.7 percent Productivity Growth Is Strong. During the past four quarters, productivity has increased 2.3 percent. Productivity has grown at a 3.2 percent annual rate since the end of 2000. Construction Spending Is At An All-Time High. Construction spending rose 1.0 percent in December. For 2005, spending reached a record $1.120 trillion - an increase of 8.9 percent over the previous record set in 2004. Housing starts in 2005 totaled 2.065 million units - 5.6% above 2004 and the highest level in over 30 years. Total sales of existing homes hit an all-time high of 7.072 million units in 2005 - up 4.2 percent from 2004. More Americans now own their homes than at any time in the Nation’s history, and minority home ownership is at a record high. Inflation Remains In Check. The Consumer Price Index (CPI) fell 0.1 percent in December reflecting a fall in energy prices. Core CPI has increased a moderate 2.2 percent over the past year, indicating core inflation remains contained.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this
Renee…. Hon, it sounds like a Trojan borked your drive. Trojans (like some people I could name) often give you bad instructions, like “you must install this” or “reboot now.” When you do, you’re hosed. My advice is to unhook your box and take it down to the nearest computer palace. CompUSA usually has an on-site fix-it center. Sorry. (OH, unless you have incriminating stuff on there, in which case, burn it and start your life over.)
By GOB
March 8, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
“AND, BTW, there were dinosaurs on the ark and I have yet to hear your MATHEMATICAL refutation of the article that I posted that you always refer to.”
Sweet Lord…This guy teaches history in a public school????
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
What financial standards do you think should apply to those seeking “free” medical care at these non-profits? STOP!! MISCONCEPTION CORRECTION!! Non-profit DOES NOT mean FREE. I even said so up front when I noted that there is also the category of Charity.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Renee, a computer guy can help you pull data files, resumes, photos, letters, etc. off your borked system and burn them onto CDs for you. Been there. You have my condolences. {:-<
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Renee - FatMoose has good checking points. but yes, new drive means new O/S load, means reload of software, settings, etc. I just did my home machine about two months ago, not not FUN. LOL
and it was not from a drive crash, have had that as well, it was from a nasty virus I probably could have removed but was easier for me to just reload O/S.
By RF
March 8, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this
Renee- go ahead and hit F1 and see if it reboots. If not, you may have a problem with your mother board. Usually the hard drive is the last thing to go, and generally you have problems more than once before it goes.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
Net:
Regarding your 2:15 comment, as I indicated earlier, many use the Bible to promote their own agenda. If I had the time and inclination I could show that caring for the sick and poor is specifically required by the Bible, but by the “church,” not the government. But I believe in sparingly using the Bible to prove a point to Christians, let alone non-Christians. I’m not saying you’re a non-Christian…I’m just stating a general principle.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
The only thing that was leading me to believe it was the HD was just the information I pulled up at work today online. When the situation occurred I was only in Internet Explorer..in the middle of an email no less. I didn’t wait a full two minutes before I restarted BUT I turned it off all night hoping that the morning would bring a magical solution (needless to say that didn’t happen).
Thanks for the help anyway FM.
By RF
March 8, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this
Renee- probably you’ll end up taking it into the shop anyway. I had to reload Explorer for a friend of mine after her son inadvertently loaded a ‘free game’ disc they got in the mail. Seemed innocent enough, but it messed up her Explorer program.
By GOB
March 8, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
Chuck - Can you please post the link to the T-rex on the ark story??? I am all about educating myself.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
Thanks Kimberly!!! Trust me RF..I have hit F1 repeatedly! Nothing happens! Absolutely nothing. Just tells me to hit F1 or F2 again!! ~~sigh~~
OH, unless you have incriminating stuff on there, in which case, burn it and start your life over. Too funny
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
I must emphasize this point, because it is (1) TRUE, (2) EASILY PROVEN, and (3) HARDLY DEBATABLE.
And Jack’s right, you know. We were quite fine until you stuck your…nose into the conversation.
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this
Renee - if you have to replace the drive, get two, and keep all your data on the second drive, and back it up to CDs regularly. that way when you reload the O/S, if you have to, you don’t loose any data.
Been in this biz a long time and firmly believe in 3M’s marketing slogan(they make magnetic storage media, tape, for starters) There are only two kinds of data. Data that has been backed up and Data that has not yet been lost
By Jack
March 8, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
John. it is also bad to wish death on anyone. :(
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
I noticed that that All-the-animals-on-the-ark story made mention that all the species would be taken as juveniles. Makes sense, from a operations-logistics viewpoint. LOL and the birds they could just do as eggs. and lots of straw.
By RF
March 8, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
What I’d love to see are stats showing how many jobs have been created that pay more than 20k a year. I’d also love to see stats on how many people rose from that level of working poor to a 40+k job in the last three years and got themselves out of poverty. No matter how many jobs are created, are there ever any housing projects closed down for lack of need, or do we see any states reporting that welfare budgets are overrun with money because so many have found jobs, bought homes, and defeated the poverty beast?
By chuck
March 8, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
First, Charles. I have told 72john repeatedly that I do NOT hate him or ANYONE else. We have had a number of discussions on the Bible’s stance on homosexuality. He therefore jumps to the conclusion that because I have said that the Bible CLEARLY teaches that homosexuality is a sin, I therefore must hate him. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I admit that I get a little mean-spirited more often than I should, but if you had been called the vile things that I have been called, you would have to. That doesn’t make it right, it is just the way it is. I have NEVER said that the Bible teaches that I should hate him either and he is being disingenuous by saying that I have.
As for the ARK JBM, let me ask you a question? How big are dinosaur EGGS?
By Charles
March 8, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this
Net
Non-profit DOES NOT mean FREE. You are absolutely correct and you said as much in your original question. I was combining the theme of two threads, one relating to the health care “crisis” and the other relating to health care not-for-profit. As you may remember, several posts above your question, some bloggers discussed the millions of Americans without health care calling it “a health care crisis”, etc. I just chose to address that issue with yours at the same time believing your question about “non-profits” was a proposed remedy to combat the costs of health care. But, again, yes I do realize you were not equating “non-profit” with “charity.” My point with putting “free” in quotes was that someone is paying for health care, whether it was the patient or you and I through taxes.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
Sure Gob, here is one mathematical analysis:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i2/animals.asp
By The72John
March 8, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
Yes, Jack. I know. I don’t really.
How about - I wish Chuck to move to a country where people are as nasty to him is he is to people here?
Seriously. Were we not all enjoying an absolutely civil discussion until he showed up again?
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
speaking of T-Rex/s on Noah’s ark, caption reads: I think we got on the wrong boat
http://www.pixpond.com/1/dturul.jpg
By Jack
March 8, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
Noah could have left behind gnats, mosquitoes, rats & Zack eggs.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
Since you called me by my name, I’ll respond to you:
I’m not really sure exactly how big dinosaur eggs are, but I have a pretty good idea of what one would look like. If your point is that the eggs were on the ark, not the actual dinosaurs, then I would refute that claim by saying that (1) the Bible doesn’t say that Noah brought 2 eggs of each species, but male and female of each species. How can you determine the gender of an egg? And, (2) there’s still that pesky little chronological problem… weren’t dinosaurs extinct by the time the ark was built? And, don’t go quoting from some website…
Now, we can go back and forth like this, but the second your “other side” shows up - I’m hitting ignore.
By FatMoose
March 8, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
Sweet Lord…This guy teaches history in a public school???
And another realizes the staggering depth of Chuck’s stupidity.
Renee, You can drop a new drive in your PC, and install your OS (yes, this must be doen again) - and IF your are confident that the issue is not virus related (or find it worth the risk), you can drop your old drive in as a secondary to copy remaining intact files.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this
Charles..I understand what you are saying. Many do not subscribe to your point of view. There would generally seem to be a conflict between the ‘personal responsibility’ mantra of a conservative and the ‘care for the sick’ directive to christians regardless of who provides the care when one is a conservative and a christian. Most of the charitable hospitals are/were church hospitals, but they seem to be the ones closing most frequently leaving people to fend for themselves in the for profit world that is unfriendly to those without insurance. I do not seem to hear any rallying cry from conservative christians to support these organizations which would certainly be a way to address the access to healthcare crisis.
Chuck…Real disposable incomes rose 0.4 percent in December and were up 1.4 percent for 2005. Since January 2001, real after-tax income per person has risen 7.9 percent. Real household net worth is at $51.1 trillion - an all-time high. This doesn’t indicate distribution which goes hand in hand with the wealthy getting wealthier and the not wealthy struggling more. If CEO salaries skyrocket while worker salaries do not your figures will still be correct but would not reflect that 90% of the population is struggling. Now a report by income level reflecting an even distribution would definitely bolster or prove your position.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
Let the record show that YOU hurled the first insult, not me. As usual, when you ran out of arguments you started calling names. You do it EVERY time. It is both hysterical AND historical fact.
By GOB
March 8, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
Chuck - That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read…”But germs were probably more robust in the past, and have only fairly recently lost the ability to survive in different hosts or independently of a host.”
That claim is made with zero backup. Not that it is the most absurd idea in the article, but REALLY!?!?
Where did all the water go after it finally stopped raining? Is there an article on that too??
By Jack
March 8, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
NetB should run for office.
By Mara
March 8, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this
Zack eggs!? LOL!!!
Regarding the transport of eggs instead of adults. How would Noah be able to tell the male egg from the female egg? As for the size of a dinasaur egg, it probably depends on which species you’re refering to. Surely the T-Rex egg was mightier than that of a Microceratops, for example. Either way, I’m sure that one would be enough to make a nice omelet…
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this
“Seriously. Were we not all enjoying an absolutely civil discussion until he showed up again?”
We absolutely were. This is true.
By The72John
March 8, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
Chuckie, we were all having nice discussions when you showed up with your SHOUTING AT EVERYONE and YOUR CONDESCENDING DISMISSALS of EVERYTHING PEOPLE SAID…
This is an example of your posting, Chuckie. After that, the civility went downhill, all attributable to you.
And if you think you haven’t OOZED hatred in every post you’ve ever written, you’re kidding yourself, garbage. You don’t hate anyone? Hah! I think you mean to say you don’t NOT hate anyone.
And I didn’t run out of arguments, filth, I ran out of PATIENCE. As usual. Because dealing with little limited men like you always tries my patience to the breaking point. You are beneath contempt.
By Charles
March 8, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
Well all, it has been enjoyable. Gonna try to finish up some stuff here at work and make the rest of my day productive. Enjoyable conversations all. (and by “enjoyable” I mean “stimulating”, “engaging”, etc). ;) 72John.
Oh, Chuck, didn’t want to leave without saying my comment about people using the Bible for their own agenda was not specifically directed at you.
Have a nice day all!
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this
Any Fundamentalist I have ever known, when presented with the concept of dinosaurs and their eggs, always came out with “So you’re an expert? where you even there?”
well, these are the same people who expect the world to end soon, so….LOL
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
Let the record show that YOU hurled the first insult, not me. As usual, when you ran out of arguments you started calling names. You do it EVERY time. It is both hysterical AND historical fact.
I have to refute that. Although it may not be easily defined as/proven to be an “insult,” the first confrontational comment came when “chuck” (as you all call him), in his first post of the week said, “Kimmie, I’ll give you a perfect example of why you are WRONG YET AGAIN.”
That comment was rude, unwarranted, confrontational, and drenched with sarcasm (“Kimmie” - which no one calls her).
John, nearly twenty minutes later, then said, “Let’s just ignore both of the jerks and continue on with what HAS BEEN a perfectly civil discussion. Shall we?
Although his calling “chuck” and Zack jerks could be considered insulting, it wasn’t necessarily unwarranted, and more importantly: he did have a valid point. The discussion had indeed been perfectly civil up until that point.
Or in other words, “chuck” started it.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
Let the record show that YOU hurled the first insult, not me. As usual, when you ran out of arguments you started calling names. You do it EVERY time. It is both hysterical AND historical fact.
I have to refute that. Although it may not be easily defined as/proven to be an “insult,” the first confrontational comment came when “chuck” (as you all call him), in his first post of the week said, “Kimmie, I’ll give you a perfect example of why you are WRONG YET AGAIN.”
That comment was rude, unwarranted, confrontational, and drenched with sarcasm (“Kimmie” - which no one calls her).
John, nearly twenty minutes later, then said, “Let’s just ignore both of the jerks and continue on with what HAS BEEN a perfectly civil discussion. Shall we?
Although his calling “chuck” and Zack jerks could be considered insulting, it wasn’t necessarily unwarranted, and more importantly: he did have a valid point. The discussion had indeed been perfectly civil up until that point.
Or in other words, “chuck” started it.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this
Jack, isn’t NetB one of the most diplomatic folks you know??
By Jack
March 8, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
OK. Chuck, JBM & John. To your rooms NOW. Don’t talk to each other. Don’t look at each other. No desert at dinner and you will behave at the table. We are all related and should get along without all of the name calling an poisonous posts on this blog.
There. I feel better now.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this
LOL @ Noah having an ark full of eggs. He left a bunch of perishing animal parents that were also mad about their eggs being stolen.
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
Hey! What’d I do????
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
OK. Chuck, JBM & John. To your rooms NOW. Don’t talk to each other. Don’t look at each other. No desert at dinner and you will behave at the table. We are all related and should get along without all of the name calling an poisonous posts on this blog.
and that works in a genetic family? LMAO
did, did not, did, did not, did, did not. LOL
By chuck
March 8, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
RF, if you think about it logically, SOME of the unions have priced themselves out of jobs. When costs continue rising because of union contracts THEN you throw in the additional cost of the companies portion of health insurance, THEN you throw in the out of control increases in energy costs, it stands to reason that companies have to either cut jobs or outsource those jobs to reduce costs. Sure it would be great if everybody made enough money to live like a king, but they don’t and it usually is a result of poor decisions. I tell my students all the time that ONE stupid mistake can change the rest of their lives. It only takes one sometimes. You hope they can recover from it and make changes, but sometimes they end up having to live with the choices they have made.
That necessarily sometimes means that they will get lower level of services in general than those who have made good choices. It is an extremely fair system.
I have to take issue with NetB about the conservative ideals and Biblical values. The Bible teaches that CHRISTIANS are to feed the poor and take care of widows and orphans etc. It does not say that we should abdicate that responsibility to the government. As a strict constructionist, I believe that the Constitution does not ALLOW the Federal government to do so. There are no prohibitions against the states doing so and I would not particularly be against that, but I also think people should work through their mistakes and that a handout is NOT the way to help them do that. It is a fundamental difference in philosophy.
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Oh Jack… when you get all authoritative and bossy… Ooooo where’s that fan?
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this
Nothing is ever really ‘free’ is it, Charles? Someone, somewhere paid for it even if it’s not the recipient who pays nothing. I get it on the combining of threads, but didn’t make that connection myself at the time I asked the question because that wasn’t really my intent. That non-profit thing was actually spawned by 72J’s posting yesterday (I think) along the lines of being socially responsible and earning a profit aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. It suddenly occurred to me that the same exlusivity arguement would hold true for a not-for-profit which lead me to realizing that most not-for-profit hospitals are church owned so I wondered if it was viewed as a moral thing and then wanted to see what the position of a conservative christian might be on that. Yeah…I know…my mind works in strange and unusual stream of consciousness like ways.
The problem with the eggs and the dino thing is that once hatched they need to eat something that has been regurgitated from the adult. I guess Noah and company could have vomitted into their mouths, but it wouldn’t have the same nutritional contents, enzymes, etc as from an adult of the species. Since the T-Rex was a land-dwelling carnivore the parents would have had to feed the juveniles MEAT…if the only animals that existed were the one’s Noah brought where did the meat for the carnivores come from? Upon release would not the carnivores have eaten prey faster than the prey could have established a sustainable population?
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
Jack…I think Dog Catcher might be the only I could run for…I inhaled AND snorted…still do on special occassions.
By chuck
March 8, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this
I wasn’t talking to john JBM, and I always call Kimberly Kimmie. I make up nicknames for all of my students too. I ALWAYS think Kimberly is WRONG and she ALWAYS thinks that I am wrong. I don’t know that we have ever agreed on anything. It wasn’t meant to be rude at all.
As for the question of extinction, I don’t believe that dinosaurs were extinct. The Bible even mentions them a number of times in the text. I have to leave now, but I’ll give you the scripture references tomorrow if you are interested.
Caio
By Chilao
March 8, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Upon release would not the carnivores have eaten prey faster than the prey could have established a sustainable population
I think you just provided the strongest argument for Noah’s ark being a Symbolic Story. Either that or the ark landed where there was plenty of prey. LOL
Don’t know if I ever mentioned this here, saw a cartoon, caption was “Anti-Trust Query Initiated” since the cartoon showed that Predator, LLC annouced plans to merge with Prey, Inc.
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this
Chuck…I didn’t say that the Government SHOULD care for the sick because Christians have abdicated that responsibility. If you’ll note my question was in terms making profits and a moral obligation to care for the sick only. I didn’t say WHO should provide the care. I also noted that there seems to be opposing philosophies between conservatism’s ‘personal resposibility’ and the direction of christ to ‘care for the sick.’ No stones cast and no judgement…just fishing for info to understand how that dynamic is reconciled when it would seem that they unreconcilable.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
The problem with the eggs and the dino thing is that once hatched they need to eat something that has been regurgitated from the adult. I guess Noah and company could have vomitted into their mouths, but it wouldn’t have the same nutritional contents, enzymes, etc as from an adult of the species. Since the T-Rex was a land-dwelling carnivore the parents would have had to feed the juveniles MEAT…if the only animals that existed were the one’s Noah brought where did the meat for the carnivores come from? Upon release would not the carnivores have eaten prey faster than the prey could have established a sustainable population?
Priceless Net!!! Just priceless!! You get a standing ovation!!
By FatMoose
March 8, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
I saw a pbs show where this guy (cannot remember his name, although have seen him a number of times) explains how when his child was involved with drugs and other bad habits he acted as Chuck and other religious folk do: surrounded her with the whole family and took turns explaining how her behavour negitively affects each of their lives.
Now, many years later, he promotes another means of combating destructive behavour that he discovered reading about a african tribe. What they do is surround the person who committed the crime, and each one of them takes turns describing all the GOOD things the person has done and why they are valuable to the tribe. This usually takes days, in which they end it with a celebration of the accused re-entering the tribe.
The tribe has had to perform this ritual rarely due to its success in educating the accused, as well as the tribe, of his/her worth.
Just thought I would share something I found usefull, yet an un-intuitive, response.
(I know there are many on here that still find comfort in punishment - to those of you that have your mind set: That is your freedom and I have need to debate such preferences. This is only to provide info to those who are like minded;)
By Netbanker
March 8, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
The Bible teaches that CHRISTIANS are to feed the poor and take care of widows and orphans etc. If this is true AND it’s true that we are a “Christian Nation” then why do we have so many people going hungry, children in foster homes, and a decreasing number of church-sponsored not-for-profit or charitable hospitals?
I also think people should work through their mistakes and that a handout is NOT the way to help them do that. Does this also apply to their children? What about the people who didn’t make a mistake other than to work for an employer who goes out of business?
Oh Hooray…I’m up for Miss Congeniality!
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this
The Bible teaches that CHRISTIANS are to feed the poor and take care of widows and orphans etc. It does not say that we should abdicate that responsibility to the government.
How many Christians are in this country?
How many impoverished are in this country?
I don’t know the figures, but I’m willing to bet my very last dollar that if HALF of the “Christians” did what they were supposed to do, there’d be a lot less, if any, po’ folks.
JOINING IN THE STANDING OVATION FOR NETB. That was priceless…
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
The Bible teaches that CHRISTIANS are to feed the poor and take care of widows and orphans etc. It does not say that we should abdicate that responsibility to the government.
How many Christians are in this country?
How many impoverished are in this country?
I don’t know the figures, but I’m willing to bet my very last dollar that if HALF of the “Christians” did what they were supposed to do, there’d be a lot less, if any, po’ folks.
JOINING IN THE STANDING OVATION FOR NETB. That was priceless…
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this
Okay, so I have no shame, and no blog manners.
Would y’all please take a minute to visit ABC’s website to vote on whether or not you think Genarlow Wilson should be imprisoned?
I don’t care what your vote is (of course you know my thoughts on the matter), but I just want to show the powers that be that this issue is one of importance to the masses… I guess I just want them to know that people are paying attention to this issue…
By kimberly
March 8, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this
FatMoose, COOOOL! Thanks for sharing that. As a parent, I’ve always tried to stress and reward the positive and the love more than the negative. Thus far, I have been so successful that my own [judgmental, never-thought-I’d-amount-to-anything] relatives are stunned and amazed at the intelligence, personality, and academic, personal, and social success of my offspring. I mean like, wide-eyed amazed. (They can bite me. What did they THINK I’d do, run off like my own mother did? &&%&%^$$#@!! Sorry.)
By Jack
March 8, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
Good night all. I’m off to take a cold shower. Let’s be nice tomorrow so that we can have desert.
By RF
March 8, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
Chuck- no sarcasm here, I promise— for those of us who have not had to deal with poverty, it’s easy to say it’s all about choices. It is, but you have to realize we don’t all have the same mental capacity or knowledge to use while making choices. If you get a chance during one of the breaks, read Dr. Ruby Payne’s A Framework for Understanding Poverty. My faculty did that as a book study, and it really opened my eyes to how the poor choose and how their choices are limited by generational poverty and factors associated with that. I learned a lot about how poverty breeds poverty and what an endless cycle it can become.
I agree with you ( did I say that??? only kidding) that the population in general shouldn’t “live like kings”. Just seems fair to me that there should be more choices available than the ER because your dad lost his job. My brother lost his after returning from cancer treatment. His company had moved, forcing him into a three hour commute to work. When he couldn’t make the drive, they fired him. He couldn’t afford to move, nor did he have the energy/health to do so. After losing his job, he had no insurance. He’s had a hard time finding a job in his field or anything he could learn. Out of compassion for people like him who end up unemployed and/or uninsured because “stuff happens” not bad choices, I would like to see us offer some kind of reasonable balance other than a few free clinics or the ER. Just compassion on my part, not criticism of yours.
By RF
March 8, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this
Net- clapping—good response!! But don’t grab for the tiara yet, HONEY, there are others up here on that stage with you! LOLOL
Seriously, that whole predator/prey thing was priceless!! And how did Noah and the gang keep from being eaten by all the dinosaurs? We all saw what happened when the power grid shut down in Jurassic Park? Poor Noah didn’t have all the technology.
By Renee
March 8, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this
I just read it and voted JBM. For the record I voted no. It’s a shame.
NetB definitely gets the tiara, the sash and the bouquet today!!!
By FatMoose
March 8, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
Kimberly,
One of my favorite movies is “Big Wednesday,” a surfing cult film (Gary Busy, Jan-Micheal Vincent, and William Katt {greatest american hero}) star in it. Cheesey movie, but some great footage (first surfing movie to have real surfing filmed) and themes.
JM Vincent is the troubled (drinking - no direction) leader of the three; and when they all go off to war but him, william katt says “take care of these people.” At which point he stands a little more proud - and makes a turn-around.
I feel that the more you can include, vs exclude, those in trouble; the more they relize their importance and therefore feel a responsibility to live up to it.
By RF
March 8, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
I voted too. Yeah, Renee, he gets it today!! He’s been strutting it pretty good, hasn’t he? And kept his cool the whole time! LOL
Gotta go. Have a good evening all!
By Just Being Me
March 8, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Thanks, you two!! Family always comes through ;-) j/k - well, half kidding! LOL
By RF
March 8, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
singing…. “We are family!” Always loved some Sister Sledge!!
Bye!
By Mara
March 9, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this
where is everyone today?
By vince
March 9, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this
I was under the impression since 9/11 that thee was a terrorist problem in the world. “Either you’re with us or against us.” Since that time King George did not renew the laws regarding the purchasing of guns, he’s eased the rules allowing immigrants not only entry to the USA but easing the restrictions of illegal aliens to get a driver’s license, he’s eased the taxes on USA businesses that ship their operations to Mexico, ignored Katrina (don’t tell me Bush’s Kingdom did not ignore Katrina, the Weather Channel showed it brewing in the Guld for days and yet 9/11 got a swift response?), and now the “furriners” were offered port SECURITY? I wonder just how much further blind patriotism can go. Thanksfully King George is at a 34 percent approval rating. Maybe the country is finally starting to wake up.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this
where is everyone today?
Practicing in the choir?
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this
Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Te, Do
Good Morning! Terrible news about the 17yo who received a bj from a 15yo. What’s up with that? Had they had intercourse it would be a misdemeanor with no jail time, but a BJ deserves 10 years and the label of sex offender for life?!!!!!! Thank you GA Legislature! IDIOTS!!
By lozen
March 9, 2006 10:08 AM | Link to this
Heeeeeeeyyyyyyyy Mara. This is weird, like did the aliens come in overnight and beam everyone up except you and me?
By lozen
March 9, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this
I think you’re right Vince. His own party is now against him on the port deal.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this
LOL @ Net - but oral sex is sodomy and we all know how terrible that is. (NOT!)
almost keyed ‘terribly wonderful’.
i noticed most on that poll went for NO. but it kinda unscientific, as polling goes.
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 10:18 AM | Link to this
Hello! There is a Planned Parenthood pro-choice rally outside the Georgia Capitol at noon. The President will be at the Convention Center this evening for a $1000 per plate Repugnican fundraiser. Protesters please gather at 4:00.
Our civil rights are being bombed back to the 17th century. Stand up, people!
By GOB
March 9, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
Yeah, the Republicans are against Bush on the port deal, but i have to wonder how much of their opposition is simply politcal posturing. Remember, this is an election year for a lot of congress. They see Bush’s approval rating and are trying to distance themselves and not be lumped in with him. As soon as the election passes, it will be interesting to see how many of them fall back in line.
The administration’s response will be interesting too, as they are certainly not above holding grudges and paying people back who go against them.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this
(Should stir conversation;)
Men’s activists launch ‘Roe v. Wade for Men’
The gist of the argument: If a pregnant woman can choose among abortion, adoption or raising a child, a man involved in an unintended pregnancy should have the choice of declining the financial responsibilities of fatherhood. The activists involved hope to spark discussion even if they lose.
“There’s such a spectrum of choice that women have — it’s her body, her pregnancy and she has the ultimate right to make decisions,” said Mel Feit, director of the men’s center. “I’m trying to find a way for a man also to have some say over decisions that affect his life profoundly.”
I can see where they (these men) are coming from - although seems like a rabbit hole of trouble seeing that most people are not mature enough to actually engage in conversation about. Not to mention that everything in the world is not going to be absolutely “fair.” But lets see what gets discovered…
By lozen
March 9, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this
Kimberly, Mara, Renee, JBM, and others, I’d like to run an idea past you and see what you think. I read a piece by Robin Morgan the other day in which she said women “pretended” back in the 60’s that the sexual revolution was ours also and not just for the men. She says sexual freedom hasn’t happened yet for women and it can’t happen for us until reproductive freedom, once and for all, stops being a political football. Do you agree with that or do you think women do have sexual freedom already?
By GOB
March 9, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this
Maybe we just missed the rapture…maybe that is why it is so quiet today.
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this
FatMoose, fair is fair. My argument has always been, regarding the matter of LAW (which is the issue, not the personal beliefs of fundies), is that unless a woman can walk away from an unintended pregnancy, same as a man, that there is no equal protection under the law. To turn that around is only fair.
A man can now physically walk away, regardless of whether the law forces a woman to continue a pregnancy. If a man has money or a regular salaried position he wishes to keep, support can be obtained through the courts. If he doesn’t, forget it. He can simply refuse, and little is ever done. Should the men with money, career, and position have the right to walk away too? The law isn’t always about what’s right, but it MUST be about what is fair.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
We got left out, of the Rapture? The gall….. too funny.
Weird movie, though, Mimi Rogers in The Rapture.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
Do you agree with that or do you think women do have sexual freedom already?
I would have to ask you, what sexual freedoms do you feel do not exist?
I cannot think of any limits that are specific to women. Besides, the same repression that effects women effects humans as a whole, although it is played up/down slightly different depending on culture/location.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this
Chilao…I guess sodomy is an issue with the pro-lifers since it’s a waste of sperm. No sexual activities other than those that could result in pregnancy will be considered acceptable. What I don’t get is why isn’t the girl being punished if she was in the active role in the sex activity. The guy gets 10 yrs just because he’s 2 years older even though he was the passive partner in the act?!
Lozen…I’m sure some of the religious nuts are hoping that the Angel of Death finally answered their prayers to visit the heathen libruls during the night! Don’t know why they skipped you and Mara…I’m thinking they went to my Florida place last night. Gee, I hope the in-laws are ok since they’re there.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this
I read a piece by Robin Morgan the other day in which she said women “pretended” back in the 60’s that the sexual revolution was ours also and not just for the men.
Seems like the mother of all fake orgasms;) (just had to make a joke;)
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this
Lozen, interesting question. Certainly, I feel I have sexual freedom. Hahaha.. Ha.. Hahahaha! Um, yes, I can pick and choose which disgusting things I will and won’t do, and with whom. Hahaha! LOTS of choices. Yep. But yes, the sexual revolution did liberate men at least as much as women, if not more.
In the old days, there was a UNION of sorts. Basically, there was a set WAGE for the cookie: a ring, a wedding, a honeymoon, and a promise to your dad that he’d take care of you. Eventually you got a house, a car, a vacation every year, and a condo in Florida if you made it to retirement. Some women were scabs, but they were frowned upon by most, and didn’t get the good rate, at least not in the long run.
Then the union was broken. What’s the going rate NOW? Hahahaha! Seriously. Whenever I’m on my roof with my hands in the black goo of my gutters, I wonder where my benefits went for all the years of service to “the man.” Hahaha!
Yes, the sexual revolution TOTALLY liberated men from having to pretend to give a sh— about the women they boink. TOTALLY. And it quadrupeled their options for weekend entertainment. What we got in return: was it worth it? I don’t know. I’ll get back to you after I finish cleaning the gutters.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
Mara,
If a man has money or a regular salaried position he wishes to keep, support can be obtained through the courts.
But an organism that derives what it needs from a host and provides nothing back is a parasite - and noone should be “required” to sustain a parasite. And if that parasite eats up enough $$ that it literally takes food out of the providers mouth, it is also leaching calcium from their bones and teeth therefore affecting their health.
(tounge is half in cheek)
By lozen
March 9, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this
They were taken out in the rapture, that’s funny! Wish I’d thought of that.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this
Shhhhhhhh, FM don’t say the p word. You will upset Blabla and he’ll go off on you. Next thing he’ll be calling you a disgusting piece of blue hair trash. Don’t get the verbal abuse started so early in the morning.
By Renee
March 9, 2006 11:05 AM | Link to this
I saw on CNN this morning the “Men’s Version of Roe v Wade”. Interesting, to say the least.
Lozen, definitely interesting thought. I don’t know how I feel. Do we have sexual freedom. Yes we do and no we don’t. I’ll have to expand later, but I think Kimberly did a great job already.
Gob your 10:34 was too funny.
By Mara
March 9, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this
Hey, y’all! Finally. I was soooo lonely! Heh, heh, heh. GOB- LOL on the rapture! (do I get all yer stuff if all y’all get raptured out!)
FMoose, don’t you recall that we had this discussion already? (about whether men had the right to demand a woman gestate if he was the one who impregnated her) Don’t recall which W2W topic we got off of for it…
lozen, regarding your question about female sexual freedom…of course we have to have reproductive freedom before we can say we are free, and not just sexually free either. Having control of ones own body is simply integral to the concept of freedom.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this
Lozen,
Shhhhhhhh, FM don’t say the p word. You will upset Blabla and he’ll go off on you. Next thing he’ll be calling you a disgusting piece of blue hair trash. Don’t get the verbal abuse started so early in the morning.
No worries - toung is half in cheek and I am quite sure bla will find the humor in it;)
Lozen, I politely ask you again: what sexual freedoms do you feel do not exist?
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
Chilao, you’re right about the movie The Rapture. It’s one movie I recommend all the time. Hand Maid’s Tale is another…. Harold and Maude, Henry and June, Impromptu (about the writer George Sand’s love affair with Chopin),
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this
Uh oh, hit post before I was finished … oh, well.
By RIK
March 9, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
As far as the whole Ark thing, I am curious about the fate of all the fresh water organisms? Did Noah gather up all of the bass, trout, crayfish, mudskippers, etc. and carry them in barrels on the Ark? I don’t see these creatures surviving on “mats of floating vegetation,” to quote the Answers in Genesis website.
By Mara
March 9, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
hey Moose, what’d I say to get singled out as the anti-mens equality advocate in this discussion? I just got back to find out if I had suddenly come into possession of some really great stuff (you all do know that if the Rapture ever really happens, those of us who’re left behind get all your stuff…right?) and you pop off on me about a comment I made days and days ago that had nothing to do with men’s rights to refuse support? What’s up wit dat?
By Mara
March 9, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
RIK, good question adn one that I’ve thought about for a long time. How many blameless, innocent creatures died horrible deaths simply because god was upset that ONE GROUP of his creations wasn’t worshiping him the way he thought they should. How very…kind and loving of him.
By Jessica M
March 9, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this
Stand up women!…Or you will lose your right to pay someone to kill your child before it’s born! You must take action NOW! The right to kill is at stake here and these darn Republicans want to take that away from us!
These crazy people that hate to see children mutilated and dumped in the trash are trying to take away women’s RIGHTS!
Stand up and protest to your right to kill any children that you create! Stand up-be proud-say it loud: “I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE MY CHILD MURDERED! IT’S MY CHILD AND MY CHOICE TO KILL IT-NOT YOURS!”
And throw in: “WOMEN ARE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO TAKE THE LIFE OF ANOTHER PERSON!”
“LET US KILL”…”LET US KILL”…”LET US KILL”… (Chant this over and over as you protest against Bush and the men killed in battle fighting terrorists.) Throw in for good measure: “THE ARMED FORCES SHOULDN’T KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE-ONLY WOMEN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KILL THE INNOCENT!”
I do not care what rare case scenario you throw in the argument, nothing justifies the taking of an innocent life. There’s always adoption and we’re only talking about 9 months out of your life verses a lifetime of regret and emotional pain.
Of course then there’s the risks of a lacerated uterus, colon damage (resulting in a colostomy-having to wear a bag every day for life), the risk of infection from not removing ALL of the pieces of the baby, the risk of not being able to have any more children, etc…
These “clinics” are not even regulated because the abortion industry does not want ANY RESTRICTIONS placed on them. The only difference in back alley abortions and the ones done today is the fact that the guy gets to place a shingle outside his building and run an ad in the yellow pages.
Roe v Wade made abortion LEGAL…it did NOT make it SAFE!!!!!!!!!! (But you guys don’t really care about that now do you-as long as it’s legal and totally unrestricted.)
I don’t care what your arguments are-you can NOT justify murdering innocent children.
Have a nice day all you selfish heartless people.
By Mara
March 9, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
Troll, troll, troll, alert…what brought this wacko out of the woodwork, do you suppose?
By Jack
March 9, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this
Hi Folks. Really busy today. Would love to chat but duty calls. :0)
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this
FM, I can’t answer that question right now. I’m thinking about Morgan’s statement, which is why I asked others what they think.
By Mary
March 9, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this
Wackos, wackos, everything and not a drop to drink! Isn’t it funny how these anti-abortion people never think about all the horrible physical problems that go along with many pregnancies. Jessica, wanta see my epistemology scar? I don’t think so.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
Lozen - people being taken out by the Rapture. certainly a different way of looking at it, putting people out of their misery and all. LOL
I was discussing that movie with a Christian friend and she got all excited to know that there were at least two of the four horsemen of the apocalypse in it. exciting stuff, it seems. LMAO
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this
Mara (original post was meant for Kimberly)
hey Moose, what’d I say to get singled out as the anti-mens equality advocate in this discussion? I just got back to find out if I had suddenly come into possession of some really great stuff (you all do know that if the Rapture ever really happens, those of us who’re left behind get all your stuff…right?) and you pop off on me about a comment I made days and days ago that had nothing to do with men’s rights to refuse support? What’s up wit dat?
Chill a little;) No popping off by me - only was politely replying to kimberly’s post and addressed you on accident.
But, it was tounge/cheek as stated - so no reply was really expected.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
Having an abortion is not murdering an innocent child Jessica.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
Oh, oh, oh. Wait. Jessica, I forgot to say an abortion is not murdering an innocent child in my opinion. I learned last week I must never say anything without saying that it’s just my opinion. I would appreciate it if everyone else would do the same. Don’t want to be accused of making statements that are just your opinion without making it clear every time you speak that it’s just your opinion, now do you?
By lozen
March 9, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Whew, almost forgot to CMA on that one. Continuing with movie greats: King of Hearts with Alan Bates, *Chocolat, Freida.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
Big Eden is a fantastic movie.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Darn, did it again. In my opinion, Big Eden is a fantastic movie. Could you all just take it for granted that when I say something, it’s just my opinion and I’m not stating my opinions as facts? It’s hard to remember to post that “in my opinion” every time I say something and I’m sure most of you are intelligent enough to know I know it’s just my opinion. Okay?
By Mara
March 9, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this
Sorry, FM. thought you were pulling from a previous discussion where I defended the opinion that technically speaking, a fetus displays the same characteristics as a parasitic organism. Didn’t realize you had mis-addressed the comment. my bad…
By chuck
March 9, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this
RF, I do agree with you in some respects (BTW I have read Payne’s book for a doctoral class I took a couple of years ago). I grew up poor as a church mouse. I went to school with all of these preppy kids who had pretty much everything they wanted. As a 12 year old I got a job delivering papers so that I could have a few of those things myself. I also contributed a great deal of what I made to the family. My older brother was the same way except when he turned 16 he quit school and went to work got his GED at night school and is now a teacher as well.
I guess I’m sort of like a reformed smoker. They can’t understand why everyone can’t quit and I can’t understand why people won’t take steps to change their rotten situation.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this
I especially like Frieda (the Frieda Kahlo movie) and Chocolat. did not know at the time Johnny Depp was playing a Django Reinhardt song.
and that is not opinion, that is fact! hahahahahehehehehe
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
(Just rantings on a slow day:)
If intelligent design avocates really believe organic complexity is proof of a designer - that designer would be incredibly complex, leading in the way for an even MORE intelligent designer to create the first one - and so on.
So, their own theory creates an infinite number of gods - breaking the most important rule: Put no other gods before me.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
see, got me mispelling..LOL
FRIDA
By Jack
March 9, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
I had to break out the fan after Freida. :)
By Brian Curtis
March 9, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
“I’m sure most of you are intelligent enough to know I know it’s just my opinion.”
Well, that’s YOUR opinion. Frankly, I doubt it.
FM, Kimberly: I think the opt-out proposal is a great idea. Yeah, life isn’t fair—but that’s a challenge, not holy writ. It’s our duty to MAKE it as fair as possible.
Now, I would like to see a provision that the opt-out choice should include a set cost… just enough to cover the abortion procedure IF the woman chooses that option. Then the man can step away from both rights and responsibilities equally and leave all further actions and decisions entirely up to the woman who’s housing the fetus.
I don’t really see a downside to this sort of arrangement, unless you’re gung-ho about the Evils of Abortion to begin with. Any thoughts?
By Mara
March 9, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
FM, speaking of “intelligent design”, did you see the article about the Kiwaida hirsuta? Evidently it is a newly discovered species of crustacian that’s about the size of a salad plate and resembles a lobster with silky blond hair all over it’s appendages. Scientists said the animal was so distinct from other species that they created a new family and genus for it.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
Well, that’s YOUR opinion. Frankly, I doubt it.
doubt it? intelligent enough OR is it really opinion?
sorry, too good. LOL
Jack - yeah, me too, especially the NYC diner scene. wow!
By Jack
March 9, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
I didn’t think the “e” was in it. Very hot movie though!
By lozen
March 9, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
Was the NYC diner scene the one I thought was a Paris cafe scene with Josephine Baker? JB was one of her lovers. I loved the dance with Ashley Judd - whew! Made me get out my fan Jack.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
BC,
The problem I have with coming up with a solution to these issues is that I personally would seek custody in ANY situation where it was my child.
That would include wanting the preg to go full term and pay half of the costs incurred - and some amount for the effort of carrying the child for 9mos. Even if the preg occured somehow without my consent/knowledge.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Brian, I don’t see a downside to your suggestion either. And you could be right about “That’s your opinion, but frankly, I doubt it. I said “most;” you think I should have said some? After all it would only be my humble opinion anyway.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Nah, FM. Randy’s answer to that would be that God is infinite and didn’t have to be created by anyone. Poor motherless child!
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 01:14 PM | Link to this
I just read a synapis, it may have been Paris, hand up the leg of her female lover is what I was thinking of. The clothing back then, you know. LOL
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
FM, speaking of “intelligent design”, did you see the article about the Kiwaida hirsuta?
Yeah - cool stuff; especially since I keep reef aquariums and used to have a Anenome Crab which is quite similar and cool as heck. (it has baseball mit-like brushes made out of hairs on forearms and sweeps them through the water to catch macro-plankton and other nutrients while hanging in an anenome)
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
did you see the article about the Kiwaida hirsuta?
there is so much we have yet to learn about the deep ocean, never had the technology to get there until recently. But as Ballard said when systematically searching for the Bismarck “Alot of people do not realize that the ocean floor is vast amounts of MUD”. too funny.
I liked that show SURFACE, hope it continues.
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this
FM - that is what threw me for a loop at about 6 y/o, no one could tell me who put God there. They expected me to follow their logic about the humans, animals(non- human..LOL) and the plants and then never could answer me who put him there. Started scratching my head around then.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this
“mats of floating vegetation,” If there were mats of vegetation and other things survive…which would/could also include other humans then wasn’t God plan to wipe out everything EXCEPT his faithful Noah a failure? What was the point unless ONLY the stuff in the Ark survived?
By Renee
March 9, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this
Frida is one of my favorite movies!!
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this
Chilao-
FM - that is what threw me for a loop at about 6 y/o, no one could tell me who put God there. They expected me to follow their logic about the humans, animals(non- human..LOL) and the plants and then never could answer me who put him there. Started scratching my head around then.
If all the elements were derived from a single element which held all the properties that would dictate the natural laws and etc - how is that truely different than a notion of an all knowing god/creator?
By RF
March 9, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
chuck- I grew up very much the same, but didn’t know we were ‘poor’. That was a word saved for the family “down the road a piece” who didn’t try to get out of their situation. That’s the difference between situational and generational poverty. Those of us who were poor but got out never had the attitudes of serious poverty. We saw life as a changeable situation, and we do now. Those in generational poverty never see anything change; all they see is ‘one step forward, two steps back’ living, and many, if not all, don’t know they can get out. That’s part of where we come in as teachers, to help them learn that they can change their lives, and should want to change them. They don’t know they’re wrong now, and that’s part of what keeps them in poverty. It is indeed about choices, but where people like you and me grew up knowing that our current lifestyle wasn’t the ultimate goal, many in generational poverty don’t know that. And it’s the “I don’t care” defensive attitude many kids from poverty get that tests my patience and resolve some days!!LOL They burden my heart every day, and I soooo want them to realize what I knew and heard every day growing up—life doesn’t have to be like this. In the meantime, I’d like to think we could, as a nation, offer them reasonable healthcare options, something better than the county health department or the ER. Medicaid has some good programs, but you have to be what my parents called ‘dirt poor’ to qualify. It’s sad to see how many of my kids ( I teach in a school with about 45% poverty) don’t get any kind of care unless they are sick enough to go to the hospital. It seems sad to me. That’s one of the reasons I teach, I guess, because I want to help as many as I can get out of that awful rut.
By GOB
March 9, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this
Anyone read the article about whether the Noah flood was local or global (on Chuck’s answer site)?
If not, and you are looking for some top-notch circular logic, i would give it a read…i dont want to spoil it, but here is an example:
“If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.”
It closes with this gem:
“Belief in a world-wide Flood, as Scripture clearly indicates, has the backing of common sense, science and Christ Himself.”
Lovely…
By Jack
March 9, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
You take those mats of floating vegetation and wrap it around some rice and fish or shrimp, enjoy. Good if fresh!
By RF
March 9, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
Seriously. Whenever I’m on my roof with my hands in the black goo of my gutters, I wonder where my benefits went for all the years of service to “the man.” Hahaha!
Good one kimberly!!! I kinda wonder the same thing too after I clean the gutters, stain the deck, clean the house, cook supper, and fold kids clothes until I’m ready to scream! Us single folk get allllll the work and none of the fun, huh?? I wouldn’t trade it though, because I get allll the hugs and kisses and “I love you dad” too!!
The sexual revolution happened, and I didn’t get my draft notice!! LOLOL
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
Even if the preg occured somehow without my consent/knowledge. FM…did you read the story a few months back about the man in California(??maybe??) who was sued for child support by a woman with whom he’s never had intercourse? She apparently saved a mouthful and then used it to impregnate herself. After the kid was born she successfully sued for support because the child was genetically proved to be his. I lost track of the case after hearing about the countersuits ‘theft by taking’ and legal twisting (she claimed it was gift). All very bizarre, but in this case I don’t agree that the man should be held financially responsible. It’s one thing if they had intercourse and the birth control failed. It’s quite another to engage in a sexual activity that couldn’t possibly result in pregnancy and then have the woman collect the sperm, use a syringe to shoot it up inside herself, and then be held accountable for the resulting child.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
NetB,
Yeah - Followed that story. Crazy stuff - He must have had that magical mojo that regular brew just does not compare to;)
But, even (especally? Seeing as she must be off her rocker) in THAT situation - I would take complete responsibility and seek custody.
Heck - Back in the day I woke one night to find the girl I met that night on top of me (taking advantage of those morning stiffs if you must ask how). I have always been reluctant to call it rape.
But that is only bc of upbringing/social norms? The lack of mental anguish and if so, why IS there a lack?
By Zack
March 9, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Brian Curtis—Like the bold print.
Why are you calling me names? Did I hit home with my comments about you the other day? Does it bother you that I didn’t welcome some of your childish posts?
I agree that we need health care; the current system is inexcusible.
Our current strategy concerning our ports isn’t good.
On an off-topic note: There’s no such thing as global warming. It’s a myth.
More on why later, and did you know that global warming, if you will, and our ports have something in common?
By Jack
March 9, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
FM. Lucky you. What a way to start the day.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this
LMAO, GOB, over the ‘common sense’ of a world-wide flood!
Kimberly…I was just waiting for Jack to tell you that the thought of an independent woman turns him on and to remind you that bridges don’t have gutters.
RF…my respect for you as a parent and teacher grows the more I get to ‘know’ you. As a compasionate person it must be very difficult to see your students struggle and not recognize their own potential. Where do you think the hope or vision gets lost in generational poverty? That chain had to start somewhere.
Chuck…don’t give up on your students or sending a positive message that they change their lot in life. A seed that is planted may not sprout or grow for many years. There are teachers I think of differently now that I am older and realize that they were hard on us because they didn’t want us to waste our potential (at the time they were unfair, slave drivers)…their seeds have taken root and I owe much of my success to their efforts although few will likely ever know it.
By Jack
March 9, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this
Net, How could he prove he didn’t do it?
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this
FM. Lucky you. What a way to start the day.
That is opinion and perspective;)
By Mara
March 9, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
FYI- breaking news from CNN -
DPW, (the)United Arab Emirates-owned company has agreed to turn over all of its operations at U.S. ports to an American “entity,” Sen. John Warner said Thursday.
Reading a statement from DP World on the Senate floor, Warner, a Virginia Republican, said the reason is “to preserve” the strong relationship between the UAE and United States.
By GOB
March 9, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
Zack - Odd, that you preach something that cannot be scientifically or historically proven to be true as an absolute fact, but on the issue of global warming, which has been scientifically proven many times, you claim myth. Interesting.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
the reason is “to preserve” the strong relationship between the UAE and United States.
Can you say “UAE is saving WB from himself?”
Crazy that even another country has the sense that our prez does not in making healthy decisions - forget right/wrong ones.
By Jack
March 9, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
Entities can be bought.
By lozen
March 9, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this
Okay, FM and RF, I relate to your childhoods. And there was noone in my family to tell me things didn’t have to be that way. The way I escaped was to read everything. I saw that other people didn’t think the way my parents did or live the way we did. When I’d try to discuss those ideas with them, my mother would say, “Now, don’t get too big for your britches!” Poor people teach their children not to expect anything different or better sometimes. They teach their children the same ideas that made them poor and they’re not even unaware that’s what they’re doing. RF keep on keeping on with your students.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
but on the issue of global warming, which has been scientifically proven many times, you claim myth.
And I can understand someone arguing WHY global warming is occuring - but whether it is or not is plain dumb.
See kids, stay in school otherwise your name may be changed to randy;)
(what a nice punishment for cronicaly-inane-stupidity: Your name gets changed to randy so all will know that you are a waste of time when you introduce yourself;)
By Mara
March 9, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this
The problem is, if I am not mistaken, there is no “American entity” qualified to take over the job. Who’re they gonna sell to? Kellog, Brown, & Root?
By lozen
March 9, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
Zack, it seems you missed the program I saw on public tv last weekend about how the ice caps are so much smaller than they were just 20 years ago. So many scientists on that show who were saying the evidence cannot be denied. They had no reason to lie … in my opinion. Who told you global warming is a myth?
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
Jack…the method apparently came out during the trial. she pretty much admitted what she’d done. Unfortunately the laws on child support are purely centered on paternity. There is nothing within the laws that address how the woman became pregnant. Something was supposed to go back to the legislature to close that gap. I say “Lesson learned boys! Even if you’re wearing a condom clean up after yourself so you know what happened to your swimmers for sure”
Zack…are you sure you don’t mean that global warming is caused by man is the myth rather than just the plain old warming part? We know with certainty that the Earth goes through very long-term warming and cooling trends. Any questioning should be whether or not man’s activities are exacerbating the trend.
By Jack
March 9, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this
Randy was wrong. Global warming is not a myth but a theory.
By GOB
March 9, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
Jack - If the average temperature of the earth is higher now than it was 100 years ago, that moves beyond theory. If your kid has a fever of 102, that temperature increase is not just a theory.
By Jack K
March 9, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this
I hear Iran is looking to strike a deal for those ports. (Or was that the PLO?) Heck, Pakistan or Afghanistan might want to go in on that too!
Or, then again, maybe Oprah or Trump will cough up the money to run them. Lord knows they have enough money to do it.
(Jessica-don’t waste your time with the pro-aborts. They don’t want to think about it being an actual living human being that’s in the womb. Once it’s born something magical happens that changes it into a human being. Forget the fact that some babies are born at 7 mos, some at 8 and some at 9. But that MOMENT makes it a human. Before that it’s just fair game to be killed.)
If you don’t like it then talk to your representatives and to your lawmakers. Oh, wait, that’s probably what you’re doing isn’t it.
We still have the right to do that in this country don’t we? Yes, I thought so.
Got a lot of jokes for you tomorrow….
By Jack
March 9, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this
Hey Gob. They haven’t proven squat. How do they know it is not a natural occurence? We may still be warming up from the ice-age. Man hasn’t been on Earth that long when you look at the age of the planet.
By GOB
March 9, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
Jake K - You are painting with an awfully big brush there. Also, there are a lot of false assumptions in there. Most pro-choice advocates are opposed to late term abortions. If the fetus is viable outside of the womb, the numbers that oppose abortion are staggeringly large.
By Mara
March 9, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this
I’m bored. Did anyone watch Top Model last night? Was I the only one laughing when the Anne Coulter wanna-be got told off at the dinner table…and then kicked off the next day?
By Brian Curtis
March 9, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
GOB: Hey, what’s the big idea bringing facts in here? Don’t you know there are axes to grind?
It’s funny to watch Zack complain about name-calling. “Hi, Mr. Kettle; Zack says you’re black.”
By GOB
March 9, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this
“We may still be warming up from the ice-age.”
Jack - Does this statement mean you believe that the earth IS, in fact, getting warmer? I am not talking about the causes of the increase in temperature, just that there has in fact been one. It seems like we are in agreement on that basic point.
To your other point, however, if you look at the data, it seems pretty clear to me that the industrial revolution was the start of the recent warming we are currently in. It seems to have accelerated in the past 50 years too.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
Jack…the cause of the warming as well as whether man’s activities are speeding it are the items in question. The average temperature IS higher. We just don’t know how much is natural, how much is due to man, are human activities speeding up a natural process or not.
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Jack,
I believe he was addressing your general statemnt:
Global warming is not a myth but a theory.
At that point you did not detail: How do they know it is not a natural occurence?
Which is a different arguement than IF it is occuring.
But let me throw this out there: Seeing as it is fact that CO2 insulates the earth; and we as humans are digging up millions/tons of this stuff that was inert. And have just about depleated the liquid reserves…it stands to logic that unless something NEW is in the the mix (like more trees/greenery, but there is less) that is breaking the CO2 down faster than we are releasing it - we have a large part to do with the warming, but how much is a mystery.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Mara…I started, but had to switch over to see the finale of Project Runway. Somehow I’d missed part 1, but I was watching up to the point that they moved into the house. It amazes me the way some of those women are so evil to each other or whiny about stuff. I’m thinking HELLO! Do you KNOW what kind of opportunity you have here? Stop whining and start working!!
By GOB
March 9, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
We will never be able to put any exact measure on the human impact of global warming, but to state that it is a totally natural thing, and that humans are not at least a contributing factor displays an arrogance of the highest order (not that anyone here has made that claim, just throwing it out there).
By Whiley
March 9, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…………………
By Whiley
March 9, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
I’ll bet you guys would have never guessed that Chuck is my husband. We’ve kept it under wraps pretty well so far. I just thought you guys should know the truth.
We’ve tried to play the good cop/bad cop thing on the blog. It’s worked very well. You guys never suspected a thing. ROFLMBAO!!!!!LOLOLOL
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…………………
Psst GOB.
You write on whileys face while I get the warm glass of water and shaving cream;)
By blablabla
March 9, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
What exactly are you guys going to shave???
(Did you guys used to watch Sex In The City???) Not going there…
By GOB
March 9, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
You put the shaving cream in the person’s hand then tickle their nose…
By Renee
March 9, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this
If a 1st term fetus is a baby then shouldn’t it be able to survive outside of the womb. I don’t think anyone suggests killing a baby. Baby…fetus…two different things. Yes, a fetus can grow into a baby, just like a baby can grow into an adult.
By Mad Scientist
March 9, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this
Global warming is very easily proven and has been proven by scientists around the world. (You should see the size of the thermometer we have to stick through the earth’s core to get a good reading!)
Trouble is, everyone knows hell is in the center of the earth and that it’s creating the global warming trend. The more people that go to hell, the hotter satan has to make it and therefore we see the effects globally in our weather patterns.
People have gone to hell and back (and NO I’m not talking about Spaghetti Junction). Our team is ready to send someone there to take a video. However, we’ve yet to find any volunteers to make the journey.
And by the way, the earth really is round. Go figure. More updates as they come in…~peace out & word to your mother.~
By Jack K
March 9, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
Time to call it a day…
Everybody have fun tonight…everybody wang chung tonight!
By chuck
March 9, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
NetB, my students would tell you that I, to quote Churchill, “Never, never, never give up” on them OR anything else for that matter. They will also tell you that I would go to war for them if they are being treated unfairly. I teach over 150 kids every day and I love ‘em all…even when they screw up. Even when I’m ticked off at them for doing something stupid, they know that I still care about them.
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 04:34 PM | Link to this
The new South Dakota law makes no exception for rape. Since the crime of rape is hard to prove, and only a small percentage result in convictions, then it is feasible that a man in South Dakota can rape a woman, she can be forced to bear his child, and then he can sue for custody or otherwise exercise “parental rights.” What a great place to be a man. Who wants to rent some U-Hauls, ride up there, and bring the women out? Want to? ROAD TRIP! Let’s go. We can sing songs and play license plate bingo…..
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
(You should see the size of the thermometer we have to stick through the earth’s core to get a good reading!)
Makes me wonder if the world makes the same scrunched up face my dog does when getting heis temp checked.
Where is the earth’s anus anyways? I vote Georgia and the armpits are Alabama;)
By Chilao
March 9, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
FM - I don’t think I knew anything about atoms at 6 years old. LOL
Kimberly - Slate(i think it was) had some commentary on the SD bill that just passed. Interesting concept in that the bill still allows the sale of the Plan B pill. Commentator questioned their whole ‘life begans’ concept since it appears that life, per the bill, did not start at conception, but when there was a sucessful womb-wall attachment.
reminds me of a joke:(i know it is only Thursday) Q. What do you get when you cross a beautiful French actress with Rush Limbaugh? A. RU486
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
FatMoose, clearly you haven’t spent much time in Florida. Back away from the beach resorts, and you’ll smell what you’re looking for.
By Jessica M
March 9, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Kimberly,why don’t you go up there and stay.
You are going to see more and more states follow suit and pass the same laws. Then you are going to see the Supreme Court back them up. Then you are going to see the former Roe and Doe go to the SC and they are going to turn over Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton.
And for the record, the 10,000 women that they claim were killed in back alley abortions in the early 70’s in order to pass Roe was actually only about 10 women. They made the numbers up-according to one of the participants (which was a man-I forgot his name but will think of it later). This same man said they laughed about how stupid women would be to go along with the phrase “pro-choice” which an ad firm came up with.
Dupes. Yeah, I want the right to pay a bunch of money to some guy I’ve never met, never got to ck his credentials or med license, to stick sharp instruments into me and pull out my unborn child piece by piece. Sharp instruments and suction devices don’t belong in a place where you can’t see what you’re doing and might grab the wrong thing.
A girl at college had an abortion and wound up having to have surgery on her colon. She was miserable ever since. She wore one of these weird bag things and the smell was horrible. But, she took her chances. No one talks about these cases though. No one talks about the women who died because it is not a safe procedure. (Safe for the quack doing it-but not for the women.)
How can women be so ignorant? Where are your maternal instincts for God’s sake?
Susan B Anthony was very pro-life by the way. Real feminists don’t kill babies-born or unborn.
By Mad Scientist
March 9, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
Fat Moose-nope, it’s definitely Hollywood, California.
By kimberly
March 9, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
Jessica, why do you hate yourself? Because you’re a ——?Why do you hate women? BTW, I’ll go whereever I darn well please while I still actually have the right to do so… you know, before your buddies strip us of all freedoms except the right to lie down, spread ‘em, stick ‘em in the stirrups, and squeeze out another one in the name of your holy god, amen. B——.
By judge judy
March 9, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this
Only a pure ignoramus would believe that only ten women - count them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 - were killed in back alley abortions. Shut up. You’re an idiot.
By RIK
March 9, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
Jessica M. said: “Sharp instruments and suction devices don’t belong in a place where you can’t see what you’re doing and might grab the wrong thing.”
I assume you are against all forms of surgery then Jessica M.?
By judge judy
March 9, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
And another thing, dummy. you can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time you ignorant @$$wipe. I hate idiots! Get outta my courtroom, your case is dismissed madam.
By Netbanker
March 9, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this
The more people that go to hell, the hotter satan has to make it and therefore we see the effects globally in our weather patterns. I see we have a not so smart scientist who doesn’t know the first thing about thermodynamics. If Hell is at the center of the Earth then it is a finite space. The more people packed into that finite space the hotter the temperature. Satan doesn’t need to do a thing.
Jessica…go away! You don’t think abortion is right don’t freakin have one!!!!!! Why is it that you NEED to tell other people what is right and wrong for THEM? What a controling B I T C H!
By FatMoose
March 9, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this
Jessica,
When you can make a point without hate in your heart and are able to have a rational conversation, come on back.
(ps - one of the main points in roe/wade was that their is no scientific evidence regarding a soul and the time of its emergence; and could easily be hypothisised that it depends on a certain compexity of neural pathways being laid down and created before such event takes place. That fact has not changed, so I would not bet on it getting overturned without new FACTS. Otherwise, the decision would have to be made on FAITH that there is a soul, which is religion - not govmt.)
By Mara
March 10, 2006 07:47 AM | Link to this
HAPPY FRIDAY!! For your giggling pleasure, may I intorduce…the FIRST joke of the day…
One day George Bush was out jogging and accidentally fell from a ridge into a very cold river. Three boys, playing along the river, saw the accident. Without a second thought, they jumped in the water and dragged the wet president out of the river.
After cleaning up he said, “Boys, you saved the President of the United States today. You deserve a reward. You name it, I’ll give it to you.”
The first boy said, “Please, I’d like a ticket to Disneyland!”
“I’ll personally hand it to you,” said Mr. Bush.
“I’d like a pair of Nike Air Turbos,” the second boy said.
“I’ll buy them myself and give them to you,” said the grateful Bush.
“And I’d like a wheelchair with a stereo in it,” said the third boy.
“I’ll personally … wait a second, son, you’re not handicapped!”
“No — but I will be when my dad finds out I saved you from drowning.”
By Julia
March 10, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this
Jessica-while I may agree with your pro-life stance I have to say that your “in your face” boldness may have put a few people off yesterday (especially Kimberly). And I think the name of the man you may have been referring to was Bernard Nathanson who co-founded one of the biggest abortion rights groups in existance today. He is now pro-life and speaking out about what they did to get Roe passed and admitting to all the lies. This is probably the man you were referring to though I may be wrong.
His story is pretty incredible for anyone wanting to research it on the web. (I won’t do a cut and paste job like alot of folks like to do. You can research it if you like.)
Hopefully today can be a great joke day and not alot of ranting, cussing and fussing. Will post some jokes soon. :)
By Mara
March 10, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this
2.Two storks are sitting in their nest: a father stork and baby stork. The baby stork is crying and crying and father stork is trying to calm him. “Don’t worry, son. Your mother will come back. She’s only bringing people babies and making them happy.”
The next night, it’s father’s turn to do the job. Mother and son are sitting in the nest, the baby stork is crying, and mother is saying “Son, your father will be back as soon as possible, but now he’s bringing joy to new mommies and daddies.”
A few days later, the stork’s parents are desperate: their son is absent from the nest all night! Shortly before dawn, he returns and the parents ask him where he’s been all night.
The baby stork says, “Nowhere. Just scaring the hell out of college students!”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 08:58 AM | Link to this
Whew!!! I missed it yesterday, Kimberly and NetB…lol..
By Mara
March 10, 2006 09:03 AM | Link to this
hey, Renee.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this
Showers: Men Vs. Women
How To Shower Like A Woman… * Take off clothing and place it in sectional laundry hamper according to lights and darks. * Walk to bathroom wearing long bathrobe. If you see your boyfriend/husband along the way, cover up any exposed flesh and rush to the bathroom. * Look at your womanly physique in the mirror and stick out your gut so that you can complain and whine even more about how you’re getting fat. * Get in shower. Look for face-cloth, arm-cloth, leg-cloth, long loofah, wide loofah and pumice stone. * Wash you hair once with Cucumber and Lamfrey shampoo with 83 added vitamins. * Wash your hair again with Cucumber and Lamfrey shampoo with 83 added vitamins. * Condition your hair with Cucumber and Lamfrey conditioner enhanced with natural crocus oil. Leave on for 15 minutes. * Wash your face with crushed apricot facial scrub for 10 minutes until red and raw. * Wash entire rest of body with Ginger Nut and Jaffa Cake body wash. * Rinse conditioner off of hair (this takes at least 15 minutes as you must make sure that it has all come off). * Shave armpits and legs. Consider shaving bikini area but decide to get it waxed instead. * Scream loudly when your boyfriend/husband flushes the toilet and you lose the water pressure. * Turn off shower. * Squeegee off all wet surfaces inn the shower. Spray mold spots with Tilex. * Get out of the shower. Dry with towel the size of a small African Country. * Wrap hair in super-absorbent second towel. * Check entire body for the remotest sign of a zit. Attack with nails/tweezers if found. * Return to bedroom wearing bathrobe and towel on head. * If you see your boyfriend/husband along the way, cover up any exposed flesh and then rush to the bedroom to spend an hour-and-a-half getting dressed.
How To Shower Like A Man… * Take off clothes while sitting in the edge of the bed and leave them in a pile. * Walk naked to the bathroom. If you see your girlfriend/wife along the way, flash her making the ”woo, woo” sound. * Look at your manly physique in the mirror and suck in your gut to see your pecs. Admire the size of your weiner in the mirror, stratch your balls. * Get in shower. Don’t bother looking for a washcloth. You don’t use one. * Wash your face. * Wash your armpits. * Crack up at how loud your fart sounds in the shower. * Wash your privates and surronding area. * Wash your a*, leaving hair on the soap bar. * Shampoo your hair. Do not use conditioner. * Make a shampoo Mohawk. * Pull back shower curtain and look at yourself in the mirror. * Pee (in the shower). * Rinse off and get out of the shower. Fail to notice water on the floor bacause you left the curtain hanging out of the tub when you checked your Mohawk. * Partially dry off. * Look at yourself in the mirror, flex muscles .Admire wiener size. 18. Leave shower curtain open and wet mat on the floor. * Leave bathroom light and fan on. * Return to the bedroom with towel around your waist. If you pass your girlfriend/wife, pull off the towel, grab your balls, shout ”Oh yeah, baby!” and thrust your pelvis at her. * Throw wet towel on the bed. Take two minutes to get dressed.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this
hi Mara, great jokes lol…
By Brian Curtis
March 10, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this
After many years of marriage, a husband has turned into a couch potato, became completely inattentive to his wife and sat guzzling beer and watching TV all day. The wife was dismayed because no matter what she did to attract the husband’s attention, he’d just shrug her off with some bored comment.
This went on for many months and the wife was going crazy with boredom. Then one day at a pet store, the wife saw this big, ugly, snorting bird with a massively muscled chest, powerful wings with wicked talons, beady eyes, and dribble running down the side of its mouth.
The shopkeeper, observing her fascination with the bird, told her it was a special imported “Goony bird” and it had a very peculiar trait. To demonstrate, he exclaimed, “Goony bird: The table!”
Immediately, the Goony bird flew off its perch and with single-minded fury attacked the table and smashed it into a hundred little pieces with its powerful forearms and claws! To demonstrate some more, the shopkeeper said, “Goony bird! The shelf!”
Again the Goony bird turned to the shelf and demolished it in seconds.
“Wow!” said the wife, “If this doesn’t attract my husband’s attention, nothing will!” So she bought the bird and took it home.
When she entered the house, the husband was, as usual, sprawled on the sofa guzzling beer and watching the game. “Honey!” she exclaimed, “I’ve got a surprise for you! A Goony bird!”
The husband, in his usual bored tone replied, “Goony Bird, my a-ss!”
By Julia
March 10, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this
Top 10 Party Games for People Over 50
10-Sag! You’re it! 9-Pin the toupee on the bald guy. 8-20 questions shouted in your good ear. 7-Kick the bucket. 6-Red Rover, Red Rover, the nurse says bend over. 5-Doc, doc, goose. 4-Simon says something incoherent. 3-Musical recliners. 2-Spin the bottle of Mylanta. 1-Hide and go pee!
By Brian Curtis
March 10, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this
Some race horses staying in a stable. One of them starts to boast about his track record. “In the last 15 races, I’ve won 8 of them!”
Another horse breaks in, “Well in the last 27 races, I’ve won 19!!”
“Oh that’s good, but in the last 36 races, I’ve won 28!”, says another, flicking his tail.
At this point, they notice that a greyhound has been sitting there listening. “I don’t mean to boast,” says the greyhound, “but in my last 90 races, I’ve won 84 of them!”
The horses are clearly amazed. “Wow!” says one, after a hushed silence. “A talking dog.”
By Brian Curtis
March 10, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this
Three rats are sitting at the bar talking bragging about their bravery and toughness.
The first says, “I’m so tough, once I ate a whole bagful of rat poison!”
The second says, “Well I’m so tough, once I was caught in a rat trap and I bit it apart!”
Then the third rat gets up and says, “The heck with you sissies. I’m off home to screw the cat.”
By Brian Curtis
March 10, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this
There were these two cows, chatting over the fence between their fields.
The first cow said, “I tell you, this mad-cow disease is really pretty scary. They say it is spreading fast; I heard it hit some cows down on the Johnson Farm.”
The other cow replies, “I ain’t worried, it can’t affect us ducks.”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this
LOL…too funny
By Mara
March 10, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this
A lady approaches her priest and tells him “Father, I have a problem. I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing.”
“What do they say?” the priest inquired.
“They only know how to say, ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes. Want to have some fun?’”
“That’s terrible!” the priest exclaimed, “but I have a solution to your problem. Bring your two female parrots over to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots whom I taught to pray and read the bible. My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and your female parrots will learn the joys of praise and worship.”
“Thank you!” the woman responded.
The next day the woman brings her female parrots to the priest’s house. His two male parrots are holding the rosary beads and praying in their cage. The lady puts her two female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say “Hi we’re prostitutes, want to have some fun?”
One male parrot looks over at the other male parrot and exclaims, “Put the beads away, brother. Our prayers have been answered!”
By Mara
March 10, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this
here’s a survey for all you cat people out there, my answers can be found at the end of the question…
See how many yes answers apply to you.
• Do you select your friends based on how well your cats like them? (no)
• Does your desire to collect cats intensify during times of stress? (no)
• Do you buy more than 50 pounds of cat litter a month? (no)
• Do you think it’s cute when your cat swings on your drapes or licks your butter? (HELL no)
• Do you admit to non-cat owners how many cats you really have? (no)
• Do you sleep in the same position all night because it annoys your cats when you move? (yes)
• Do you kiss your cat on the whiskers? (yes)
• Do you feed your cat tidbits from the table with your fork? (yes…)
• Does your cat sleep on your head? (yes)
• Do you like it? (yes)
• Do you have more than four opened but rejected cans of cat food in the refrigerator? (yes)
• Do you watch bad TV because the cat is sleeping on the remote? (yes)
• Will you stand at the open door indefinitely in the freezing rain while your cat sniffs the door, deciding whether to go out or come in? (yes)
• Would you rather spend a night at home with your cat than go out on a bad date? (yes)
• Do you put off making the bed until the cat gets up? (yes)
• Do you give your cat presents and a stocking at Christmas? (sigh, yes…)
I guess I am a fully owned subsidiary of the feline household…
By Julia
March 10, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this
Eating with Children
A guy hosted a dinner party for people from work, including his boss.
All during the sit-down dinner, the host’s three-year-old girl stared at her father’s boss sitting across from her. The girl could hardly eat her food from staring.
The man checked his tie, felt his face for food, patted his hair in place, but nothing stopped her from staring at him. He tried his best to just ignore her but, finally it was too much for him.
He asked her, “Why are you staring at me?”
Everyone at the table had noticed her behavior and the table went quiet for her response.
The little girl said, “My Daddy said you drink like a fish and I don’t want to miss it!”
By Julia
March 10, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this
THINGS YOU’D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO SAY AT WORK (or on a blog):
I can see your point, but you’re still full of crap.
I don’t know what your problem is, but I’ll bet it’s hard to pronouce.
I see you’ve set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public.
I’ll try being nicer if you’ll try being smarter.
Ahh…I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again.
I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.
I’m already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.
The fact that no one understands you doesn’t mean you’re an artist.
What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?
And your cry-baby whiny-assed opinion would be…?
This isn’t and office. It’s Hell with fluorescent lighting.
If I throw a stick, will you leave?
Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.
Can I trade this job for what’s behind door #1?
Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this
I’m kinda curious about the content of Julia’s joke. I’m not deriding her choice of jokes or her sense of humor, I’m just really curious. For all of you with chil’uns….do y’all really find situations like this “cute” or “amusing”? I know they show a lot of these “look at the funny things kids do…” films on shows like Americas Funniest Home Videos, and such, but I’ve always wondered if these are supposed to make us laugh or make us cringe.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this
By the way, Julia, I about choked on my coffee reading the “Things not to say at work” list! LMAO !!
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this
Hilarious jokes, everyone.
The latest in parasitic children is out, Failure to Launch. hahahahahahaha
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
Mara…you are on a roll today! Thanks for the laughs!
By RF
March 10, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this
Mara- they’re supposed to make us laugh and cringe. Laugh at the poor slob this happens to, and cringe at the thought of our little ‘darlings’ doing something so bad! My youngest is one who calls ‘em like he sees ‘em. We have a family friend who is ‘big-boned’ and has a family history of being large. He was laying on her lap one day watching TV, sat up, looked at her, pointed to her thigh and said “Gosh, that’s bigger than my head!” I went immediately into hyperventilate mode, but my friend laughed until she cried. I could have just died right there and then.
Julia- LOVE the list. I think I’m going to mount the “flypaper for freaks” on my front door (I have a couple of nice, annoying neighbors who just don’t get the fact that I don’t need to see them or talk to them every single day at least three times!!LOL)
By Julia
March 10, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this
Rules For Work: (Should go over well with your boss.)
Print it out and hang it over your work station…I dare ya!
Never give me work in the morning. Always wait until 4:00 and then bring it to me. The challenge of a deadline is refreshing.
If it’s really a rush job, run in and interrupt me every 10 minutes to inquire how it’s going. That helps. Even better, hover behind me, and advise me at every keystroke.
Always leave without telling anyone where you’re going. It gives me a chance to be creative when someone asks where you are.
If my arms are full of papers, boxes, books, or supplies, don’t open the door for me. I need to learn how to function as a paraplegic and opening doors with no arms is good training in case I should ever be injured and lose all use of my limbs.
If you give me more than one job to do, don’t tell me which is priority. I am psychic.
Do your best to keep me late. I adore this office and really have nowhere to go or anything to do. I have no life beyond work.
If a job I do pleases you, keep it a secret. If that gets out, it could mean a promotion.
If you don’t like my work, tell everyone. I like my name to be popular in conversations. I was born to be whipped.
If you have special instructions for a job, don’t write them down. In fact, save them until the job is almost done. No use confusing me with useful information.
Never introduce me to the people you’re with. I have no right to know anything. In the corporate food chain, I am plankton. When you refer to them later, my shrewd deductions will identify them.
Be nice to me only when the job I’m doing for you could really change your life and send you straight to manager’s hell.
Tell me all your little problems. No one else has any and it’s nice to know someone is less fortunate. I especially like the story about having to pay so many taxes on the bonus check you received for being such a good manager.
Wait until my yearly review and THEN tell me what my goals SHOULD have been. Give me a mediocre performance rating with a cost of living increase. I’m not here for the money anyway.
By RF
March 10, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
Yo net, you’ve been on a roll this week! I just about fell off my chair reading your response to Jessica yesterday. Just a wee bit ticked, were ya?
I’ve gotta go see “Failure to Launch” this weekend. I love Kathy Bates, and of course there’s Matthew McConaugHEEEEYYYY!
Where’s Jack’s fan?
By FatMoose
March 10, 2006 10:16 AM | Link to this
While my ex-wife and my nieces were changing to go to the community pool, my mother, me, and sister heard the youngest girl exclaim “You have a hairy v@gin@!”
Boy, were we beat red from laughing! Not to mention my ex when they walked out!
(and the reason for surprise was that they are young and blonde, like their mother - so the starkness of a dark patch got their attention)
I personally love the honesty that comes from kids.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this
NetB, I do what I can to make life just a little brighter (curtsey…)…and I was soooo glad Santino didn’t win Project Runway. I liked his audition dress, the silver one from episode 5, and his Barbie outfit, that was about it.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
A busybody visited her bachelor neighbor and said, “You’re 45 years old and have never been married. I have a lovely niece your age. Say the word and I’ll introduce you.”
“Don’t bother,” the bachelor said. “I have two sisters who look after my every need.”.
The meddlesome woman replied, “That’s all well and good, but all the sisters in the world cannot fill the role of a wife.”.
The bachelor said, “I said two sisters, I didn’t say they were MY sisters.”
Q: What is the main difference between Vietnam and Iraq?
A: Bush went to Iraq.A traveling salesman was driving down a country road late at night when his car broke down. He spotted a farmhouse and knocked on the door. A farmer answered.
The salesman said, “My car broke down, would it be okay if I spent the night.”.
“No problem,” the farmer answered, “but you’ll have to sleep with my son.”.
“Never mind,” the salesman replied. “I must be in the wrong joke.”
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
A guy in a bar stands up and says, “All lawyers are a-holes.”
Another guy stands up and says “Hey…I resent that…”
The first guy says, “Why? Are you a lawyer?”
The second guy says, “No. I’m an a-hole”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
Yeah, NetB’s response was priceless lol…
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this
this may be a repeat on this blog, but I have not posted it here. can’t remember ALL the jokes, ya know.
Three nuns, coming back from the retreat, were killed in an automobile accident.
Upon arriving at the Pearly Gates, were halted by St. Peter, which was a surprise since they THOUGHT that they would have been ushered right in, having lived pious and charitable lives throughout their lifes’ and all.
“First you must each answer a question”, St. Peter stated.
ALl three nuns began to get nervous, thinking of ALL of the theology that they had studied.
“Who was the first man?”, St. Peter asked the first nun.
“Oh, that’s easy, it was Adam”, the first nun replied.
Trumpets blared, angels sang, and the Pearly Gates swung open to allow the first nun entry, and then closed.
The other two nuns began to relax.
“And who was the first woman?”, St. Peter asked the second nun.
“Oh, that’s as easy, it was Eve”, the second nun replied.
Trumpets blared, angels sang, and the Pearly Gates swung open to allow the second nun entry, and then closed.
The third nun became very relaxed. So much for all that theology, she thought, and got ready for an easy question.
“And what was the first thing Eve said to Adam?”, St. Peter than asked the third nun.
“My, that’s a HARD one!”, the third nun commented.
Trumpets blared, angels sang, and the Pearly Gates swung open…………………..
By Mara
March 10, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
Chilao - ROTFLMAO!!!
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
Gee thanks, RF, for pointing out my own bi tchy response to Jessica. It was the end of a long day I’m just OVER all the pro-life people whose brains are soooo tiny that they can’t get the point that being pro-choice isn’t anti-pro-life. She bore the brunt of other frustrations, mais c’est la vie…(I still think she deserved it!) And Matthew McC…Pass the fan!! I dated I guy years ago who looked like him…shame all he really had going for him was his looks and body, but didn’t stop me from enjoying him like a day at an amusement park complete with Express Pass to the front of the line for each and every ride!
Mara…I was actually rooting AGAINST Santino. I never did like his personality and while I know that editing can do a great deal to affect perception by taking comments or moments in time out of context he certainly seemed to provide them with LOTS of fodder. Yet beyond that, I found his collection to be BORING and the colors to be bland. I was having a hard time deciding between Chloe and Daniel. I thought his ‘story’ was that with his collection a woman could be classically stylish from casual wear to evening gown. I think he showed his versatility much more than Chloe’s collection, but I did think her gowns were pretty hot.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
Net, I was really rooting for Nick but after he got booted, I was really just hoping for anyone except Santino. Though I agree that Daniel displayed a wider range of types of garments, I liked the way Chloe’s designs actually flowed together into a collection. Daniel had lots of very nice outfits but didn’t seem to have any unifying theme.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this
One of these reminded me about the dilemna a photojournalist encounted recently. (off the cuff, so bear with me.)
He was recording the tidal waves as a result of the recent hurricanes and he saw Bush go by in a surge. If he rescued Bush, he would loose the photo op of a lifetime. And if he did not, the leader of the free world would perish.
His dilemna? using the 400-speed-film camera or the special 1000-speed-film camera.
By lozen
March 10, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this
Feel so miserable without you, it’s almost like having you here.” - Stephen Bishop
“He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.” - Winston Churchill
“A modest little person, with much to be modest about.” - Winston Churchill
Thank you for sending me a copy of your book; I’ll waste no time reading it.” - Moses Hadas
“He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness in others.” - Samuel Johnson
“He had delusions of adequacy.” - Walter Kerr
“He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.” - Abraham Lincoln
“I didn’t attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.” - Mark Twain
“His mother should have thrown him away and kept the stork.” - Mae West
“Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go.” - Oscar Wilde
“He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends.” - Oscar Wilde
“He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.” - Winston Churchill, on Stanley Baldwin
By Mara
March 10, 2006 11:10 AM | Link to this
When Einstein died and arrived at the gates of heaven, St. Peter wouldn’t let him in until he proved his identity. Einstein scribbled out a couple of his equations, and was admitted into paradise.
And when Picasso died, St. Peter asked, “How do I know you’re Picasso?”
Picasso sketched out a couple of his masterpieces. St. Peter was convinced and let him in.
When George W. Bush died, he went to heaven and met the man at the gates. “How can you prove to me you’re George W. Bush?” Saint Peter said.
Bush replied, “Well heck, I don’t know.”
St. Peter says, “Well, Albert Einstein showed me his equations and Picasso drew his famous pictures. What can you do to prove you’re George W. Bush?”
Bush replies, “Who are Albert Einstein and Picasso?”
St. Peter says, “It must be you, George, c’mon on in.”
By Mara
March 10, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
Bush and Gore were sitting in a restaurant to discuss the craziness of the election. When the waitress came to take their orders, Gore said, “I’ll take the steak.” When she asked Bush, he said, “I’ll take the quicky.” Gore motioned for the waitress to come closer, and whispered into her ear “He means the quiche.”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
The jokes have been great…okay since we’re on Bush…lol
George Bush’s Resume
George W. Bush The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., NW Washington, D.C. 20500
Past Work Experience
Ran for congress and lost. Produced a Hollywood slasher B movie. Bought an oil company, but couldn’t find any oil in Texas; company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock. Bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox. With father’s help (and his name) was elected Governor of Texas. Accomplishments in Previous Positions
Changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog-ridden city in America. Cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money.
Set record for most executions by any governor in American history.
Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my father’s appointments to the Supreme Court.
Accomplishments As President
Attacked and took over two countries. Spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury. Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history. Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period. Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market. First president in decades to execute a federal prisoner. First president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record. First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in U.S. history. After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history. Set the record for most campaign fundraising trips than any other president in U.S. history. In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job. Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in U.S. history. Set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in U.S. history. Set the record for the least amount of press conferences than any president since the advent of television. Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in U.S. history. Presided over the biggest energy crises in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed. Presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have. Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans. Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. Dissolved more international treaties than any president in U.S. history. My presidency is the most secretive and unaccountable of any in U.S. history. Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history (the ‘poorest’ multimillionaire, Condoleezza Rice, has an Exxon oil tanker named after her). First president in U.S. history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt. Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world. First president in U.S. history to order a U.S. attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation. Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States. Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in U.S. history. First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the human rights commission. First president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the elections monitoring board.
Removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in U.S. history. Rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. Withdrew from the World Court of Law. Refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions. First president in U.S. history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. elections). All-time U.S. (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations. My biggest lifetime campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation). Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in U.S. history. First president in U.S. history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community. First president to run and hide when the U.S. came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1) First U.S. president to establish a secret shadow government. Took the biggest world sympathy for the U.S. after 9/11, and in less than a year made the U.S. the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in U.S. and world history). With a policy of ‘disengagement’ created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years. Fist U.S. president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability. First U.S. president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the U.S. than their immediate neighbor, North Korea. Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated U.S. law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts. Failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden ‘dead or alive.’ Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capital building. After 18 months I have no leads and zero suspects. In the 18 months following the 9/11 attacks I have successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States. Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in U.S. history. In a little over two years created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the U.S. has ever been since the Civil War. Entered office with the strongest economy in U.S. history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down. Records and References
At least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available) AWOL from National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war. Refuse to take drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father’s library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All minutes of meetings for any public corporation I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. For personal references please speak to my daddy or uncle James Baker (they can be reached at their offices of the Carlyle Group for war-profiteering.)
By Julia
March 10, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this
Caught napping at work, school, or church…try this one. Guaranteed to work!
Just pick your head up real fast and say:
“…in JESUS’ name…AMEN!” (he-he…how can they yell at you for this :)
By Julia
March 10, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Some quick thinking to get out of the “caught napping jam!”…
They told me at the blood bank that this might happen.
Whew! I must have left the top off the whiteout again!
I wasn’t sleeping! I was testing the keyboard for drool resistance.
This is in exchange for the six hours last night when I dreamed about work!
I was doing a highly specific Yoga exercise to relieve work related stress. Do you discriminate against people who practice Yoga?
Damn! Why did you interrupt me? I had almost figured out a solution to our biggest problem!
I wasn’t sleeping. I was trying to pick up my contact lens without using my hands.
The mail courier flipped out and pulled a gun so I was playing dead to avoid getting shot!
By Renee
March 10, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Yuck - sorry that came out a mess everyone!!
By lozen
March 10, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
I love Friday! “He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.” - Abraham Lincoln I didn’t even know Abe knew Chuck!
By Julia
March 10, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this
HoW To KeEp A hEaLtHy LeVeL Of InSaNiTy AnD dRiVe OtHeR PeOpLe iNsAnE
Page yourself over the intercom. (Don’t disguise your voice)
Put mosquito netting around your cubicle.
Send e-mail to the rest of the company to tell them what you’re doing. For example: ‘If anyone needs me, I’ll be in the bathroom.’
Every time someone asks you to do something, ask if they want fries with that.
Develop an unnatural fear of staplers.
Reply to everything someone says with, “That’s what you think.”
Dont use any punctuation in your emails
Ask people what sex they are. When they answer, say “are you sure”?
Stand in front of your parked car and point a hair dryer at passing cars to see if they slow down.
By kimberly
March 10, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
Renee, so true and so depressing. The America I grew up believing in is in a persistent vegitative state while the vital organs are failing one by one. Her health has been hijacked by a bunch of partisan hacks who can diagnose by video sattelite, and who prescribes remedies in the form of laws based on the loudest rantings of the angriest churches. Terri Shaivo had nothing on Uncle Sam. Dare we sit by the bedside any longer, hoping and praying? Off to slit my wrists now. Hope is gone.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this
THE PROCRASTINATOR’S CREED:
I believe that if anything is worth doing, it would have been done already.
I shall never move quickly, except to avoid more work or find excuses.
I will never rush into a job without a lifetime of consideration.
I shall meet all of my deadlines directly in proportion to the amount of bodily injury I could expect to receive from missing them.
I firmly believe that tomorrow holds the possibility for new technologies, astounding discoveries, and a reprieve from my obligations.
I truly believe that all deadlines are unreasonable regardless of the amount of time given.
I shall never forget that the probability of a miracle, though infinitely small, is not exactly zero.
If at first I don’t succeed, there is always next year.
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
I shall always begin, start, initiate, take the first step, and/or write the first word, when I get around to it.
I obey the law of inverse excuses which demands that the greater the task to be done, the more insignificant the work that must be done prior to beginning the greater task.
I know that the work cycle is not plan/start/finish, but is wait/plan/plan.
I will never put off until tomorrow, what I can forget about forever.
I will become a member of the ancient Order of Two-Headed Turtles (the Procrastinator’s Society) if they ever get it organized.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this
PRISON AND WORK-ONE AND THE SAME?
IN PRISON…You spend the majority of your time in an 8x10 cell. AT WORK…..You spend most of your time in a 6x8 cubicle.
IN PRISON…You get three meals a day. AT WORK…..You only get a break for 1 meal and you have to pay for it.
IN PRISON…You get time off for good behavior. AT WORK…..You get rewarded for good behavior with more work.
IN PRISON…A guard locks and unlocks all the doors for you. AT WORK…..You must carry around a security card and unlock and open all the doors yourself.
IN PRISON…You can watch TV and play games. AT WORK…..You get fired for watching TV and playing games.
IN PRISON…You get your own toilet. AT WORK…..You have to share.
IN PRISON…They allow your family and friends to visit. AT WORK…..You cannot even speak to your family and friends.
IN PRISON…All expenses are paid by taxpayers with no work required. AT WORK…..You get to pay all the expenses to go to work and then they deduct taxes from your salary to pay for prisoners.
IN PRISON…You spend most of your life looking through bars from the inside wanting to get out. AT WORK…..You spend most of your time wanting to get out and go inside bars.
IN PRISON…There are wardens who are often sadistic. AT WORK…..They are called supervisors.
IN PRISON…You have unlimited time to read e-mail jokes. AT WORK…..You get fired if you get caught.
By Archie
March 10, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
Renee I liked that Bush posting. Nothing else to say except how can we,Americans, allow this man to continue as he is? Bush’s approval rating is at an all-time low. Everything he does benefits the rich.
By lozen
March 10, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this
Imagine these on billboards - Signs of the time:
Chew you fat bastards, chew! Krispy Kreme
Two months salary my a**! Zirconia
Face it, You’ll Never come up with Anything Clever on Your Own. Hallmark
Men! Who Needs ‘Em! Chiquita Bananas
Get Some Balls! Wilson
We’d Love to Be Sitting on Your Face! Ray-Ban
I Did What With My Sister? Jack Daniels
Need a good screw? Ace Hardware
Sushi… Still Your Best Bet for Intestinal Worms. Restaurant
Wouldn’t you just love our nuts in your mouth right now? Planters
Dude, We Totally Forgot Our Slogan! American Medical Marijuana Assn.
Belly shirts. Because we just love to torment pudgy teenage girls. The Gap
Big Egos. Big Biceps. Little Winkies. Gold’s Gym
Come Check Out Our Stool Samples. IKEA
Yeah, these flip over. That’s why god invented lawyers. Nissan XTerra
Cryogenic Sperm Bank. Want to earn money hand over fist?
Poorly made crap. Apathetic employees. K-Mart
Small P***? Corvette
Out Weasel. Out Pose. Out Whine. tv show Survivor
American School of Proctology. Giving someone the finger doesn’t have to be a bad thing.
There is life after substance abuse. It’s just not particularly fun.
By lozen
March 10, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this
An ant and an elephant lived in the jungle and became very good friends. One day the elephant was walking along the mountain top when he slipped and started rolling down the side of the mountain. Fortunately, he was able to grab a tree branch and hang on. He called for help until his friend the ant heard him and came to his rescue. The ant backed his corvette up to the edge of the bluff, lowered a rope to the elephant and pulled him up. As luck would have it, a few days later the ant was out walking when he slipped and rolled down the side of the mtn until catching a tree branch. The elephant heard him calling for help. He ran over and slowly let his pen-is down until the ant could grab it and hang on. Then he pulled his friend to safety. The moral of this story? If your d-i-c-k is big enough you don’t need a corvette!
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this
posts are disappearing? a repeat follows:
Renee - I forwarded the Bush resume around, subject line: Updated Bush Resume. LOL
By Mara
March 10, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this
I realize that my joke selections for today have been a bit un-balanced, ideologically speaking. In the interests of fair play…a Clinton joke.
Jerry Falwell was seated next to former President Clinton on a recent airplane flight. After the plane was airborne, the flight attendant came around for drink orders.
The former President asked for a whiskey & soda, which was brought and placed before him. The attendant then asked Mr. Falwell if he too would like a drink.
The Reverend Mr. Falwell replied in disgust, “Madam, I’d rather be savagely raped by a brazen whore than let liquor touch my lips!”
Hearing that, the President handed his drink back to the attendant and said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize there was a choice. I’ll have what he’s having.”
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Mara - oh, that is good. time for lunch. ROTFLMAO
By Mara
March 10, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this
A little boy goes to his Dad and asks, “What’s politics?”
Dad says, “Well, son, let me try to explain it to you this way.” I’m the breadwinner of the family, so let’s call me “Capitalism.”
Your Mom is the administrator of the household, so we’ll call her “The Government.”
We’re here to take care of YOUR needs so we’ll call you “The People.”
The nanny works hard all day for very little money so, we’ll consider her “The Working Class.”
And your baby brother … we’ll call him “The Future.”
Now, think about that and see if it makes sense.
So, the little boy goes off to bed, thinking about what his Dad has said. Later that night he hears his baby brother crying so he gets up to check on him. He finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper. So the little boy goes to his parents’ room and finds his mother sound asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny’s room. Finding the door locked, he peeks into the keyhole and sees his father in bed with the Nanny. He gives up and goes back to bed.
The next morning, the little boy says to his father, “Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now.”
The father says, “Good, son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is about.”
The little boy replies, “Well, while Capitalism is screwing the Working Class, the Government is sound asleep, the People are being ignored and the Future stinks to high heaven.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
LOL @ Mara…I love the billboards too Lozen…
By lozen
March 10, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this
Great one Mara!
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
Someone please give Kimberly an ounce of hope before it’s too late…
hahahaha lol…that ounce of hope could come in several different ways…
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
Mara too funny!!!!!
By Jack K
March 10, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
I think Kimberly needs some Prozac or maybe just a good friend.
I’m not knocking you Kim, but maybe antidepressants could help you. There’s always natural ones like St.John’s wort. I think alot of folks are worried about you and your hopelessness. I hope you find help soon. Please don’t do anything drastic. Your wrists comment scares me.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
Jack K., she wasn’t serious, she was making a point
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:42 PM | Link to this
President Bush was invited to address a major gathering of the American Indian Nation last weekend in Arizona. He spoke for almost an hour on his future plans for increasing every Native American’s standard of living. He referred to his career as Governor of Texas, how he had signed “YES” 1,237 times - for every Indian issue that came to his desk for approval.
Although the President was vague on the details of his plan, he seemed most enthusiastic about his future ideas for helping his “red brothers”. At the conclusion of his speech, the Tribes presented the President with a plaque inscribed with his new Indian name - Walking Eagle. The proud President then departed in his motorcade, waving to the crowds.
A news reporter later inquired of the group of chiefs about how they came to select the new name given to the President. They explained that Walking Eagle is the name given to a bird so full of s** it can no longer fly.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
chilao, lozen, renee..thanks all. I can feel the love from here ;^)
hope kimberly was just being over-dramatic with the wrist slitting comment also. NOT funny, kim.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
Three brothers Neil, Jeb and Dubya, were stumbling home late one night and found themselves on the road that led past the old graveyard.
“Come have a look over here”, says Neil, “It’s Obidiah Jones’ grave, God bless his soul, he lived to the ripe old age of 87.”
“That’s nothing”, says Jeb, “here’s one named Butch Smith. It says here that he was 95 when he died.”
Just then, Dubya yells out, “But here’s a fella that died when he was 145 years old!”
“What was his name?” asks Neil.
Dubya lights a match to see what else is written on the stone marker, and exclaims, “Miles, from Austin.”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
I thought it was funny Kimberly. For it to be joke day people are taking things wayyyyyyy too seriously.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this
I did not really want to go anywhere near this, but since it is joke day…
What was the good cop/bad cop thing from (maybe) Whiley yesterday? I thought she was white as well but with(LMBAO) Did not think it was Whiley, except she does do ‘zzzzzzzz’.
and I very nicely refrained from any OTHER comments I COULD have made related to her being Chuck’s wife(alledgedly).
Just to make for a more humorous afternoon(if possible). LOL
By kimberly
March 10, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
Kimberly watched “The Day After” on the Sci-Fi channel last night. Bad idea. Renee, how ‘bout a quarter ounce? That’s good for six months or so.. {;->
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this
I think slit my wrists is a dramatic figure of speech
By Whiley
March 10, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
I’M BAAAAAACK ! Who the !$#!@# was posting under my name???? Ashville was wonderful, what did I miss this week?
By Renee
March 10, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
On a tour US President George Bush visits a school and explains his political actions. Afterwards he invites the children to ask him questions.
Little Bob rises to speak. Mr. President, I have got three questions to ask:
Just in that moment the bell for the break rings and the children run out of the classroom.
When they came back from the break President Bush encourages them again to ask questions. This time Joey rises to speak. Mr. President, I have got five questions to ask:
By kimberly
March 10, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
Thank you all for your concern. Indeed I am prone to dramatic phrases. No, I’d never cut myself as a way to end the pain. Ewwww! However, it would be better to die quickly than to suffer the slow, watch-pieces-of-your-body-fall-off, nuclear fallout radiation death. That’s why war is bad, and peace and love are GOOD. War = bad. Peace = good. Love = better. Any questions?
By RF
March 10, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Some folks are so used to believing that everything they read is literally the truth, that they can’t tell when a person makes a sarcastic remark. And we wonder why people believe the National Enquirer :< Leave the Prozac, and bring the ounce of hope (I’ll take mine in 12oz. bottles if you please!!)
Good jokes today!!
By chuck
March 10, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this
Our cover is BLOWN! Whiley, get back to work at the crisis pregnancy center. We can never come here again.
By Jack K
March 10, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this
Sorry, didn’t know the slitting the wrist comment was just a joke. It didn’t sound that way to me.
I thought the “B” stood for big, not black. But I thought she was Asian myself.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
Kim a quarter ounce will be great, we’ll watch RF with his 12 ounce bottles lol…
I think B was for big not black…it usually is…but maybe not…
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
George W Bush, back when he was a “drinking man”, walked into a bar.
He ordered five beers and drank them all down.
He then ordered four beers and proceeded to drink them as well.
With a confused look on his face, he stared down at the empty beer bottles in front of him.
He ordered another three beers and finished them of as before.
Now he looked really confused.
Looking around in bewilderment, he cautiously ordered another two.
The bartender, curious at the young George W’s confusion asked him what was the matter, to which George W replied ‘I don’t know what’s going on but, the less beers I drink, the more drunk I get’.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 02:38 PM | Link to this
CREATIVE ANSWERING MACHINE MESSAGES
You’re growing tired. Your eyelids are getting heavy. You feel very sleepy now. You are gradually losing your willpower and your ability to resist suggestions. When you hear the tone you will feel helplessly compelled to leave your name, number, and a message.
This is you-know who. We are you-know-where. Leave your you-know-what and we’ll get back you-know-when.
Thanks for calling Dial-An-A*****. Right now, all our a***** are busy. After the tone, leave your name and number, and we’ll have an a***** return your call as soon as possible.
I’m only here in spirit at the moment, but if you’ll leave your name and number, I will get back to you as soon as I’m here in person.
HI. If you are a burglar, checking to see if anyone is home, then we’re probably at home cleaning our weapons right now and can’t come to the phone. Otherwise, we probably aren’t at home and it’s safe to leave us a message.
I can’t come to the phone now, so if, well, actually, I CAN come to the phone now, I mean, like, I’m at the phone NOW, recording this message, but I’m doing this NOW, while you’re listening to it LATER, except for you I guess it’s NOW, like, when you’re listening to it…I mean, like, wait, gosh. This is so confusing.
Hi, I’m sorry I can’t answer the phone right now. Leave a message, and then wait by your phone until I call you back.
Greetings, you have reached the Sixth Sense Detective Agency. We know how you are and what you want, so at the sound of the tone, please hang up.
“Hi. Now you say something.”
“Hi, I’m not home right now but my answering machine is, so you can talk to it instead. Wait for the beep.”
You know what I hate about answering machine messages? They go on and on, wasting your time. I mean, all they really need to say is, “We aren’t in, leave a message.” That’s why I’ve decided to keep mine simple and short. I pledge to you, my caller, that you will never have to suffer through another long answering machine message when you call me…
You have reached 934-2435. We picked this machine up at a garage sale in “as-is” condition. You can try to leave a message on it, but we are not sure it will be recorded. If we don’t return your call, it means the machine did not work.
Hi! Jan’s answering machine is broken. This is his refrigerator. Please speak very slowly, and I’ll stick your message to myself with one of these magnets.
Hello. You are talking to a machine. I am capable of receiving messages. My owners do not need siding, windows, or a hot tub, and their carpets are clean. They give to charity through the office and don’t need their picture taken. If you’re still with me, leave your name and number and they will get back to you.
Hello, this is Death. I am not in right now, but if you leave your name and number, I’ll be right with you.
I can’t come to the phone now because I have amnesia and I feel stupid talking to people I don’t remember. I’d appreciate it if you could help me out by leaving my name and telling me something about myself. Thanks.
I can’t come to the phone right now because I’m down in the basement printing up a fresh new batch of twenty dollar bills. If you need any money, or if you just want to check out my handiwork, please leave your name, number, and how much cash you need after the tone.
Hi. I’m probably home, I’m just avoiding someone I don’t like. Leave me a message, and if I don’t call back, it’s you.
Hi. I’m home right now, I’m just screening my calls. So start talking and if you’re someone I want to speak with I’ll pick up the phone. Otherwise, well, what can I say?
This is Dan Cassidy’s answering machine. Please leave your name and number, and after I’ve doctored the tape, your message will implicate you in a federal crime and be brought to the attention of the FBI.
You have reached the CPX-2000 Voice Blackmail System. Your voice patterns are now being digitally encoded and stored for later use. Once this is done, our computers will be able to use the sound of YOUR voice for literally thousands of illegal and immoral purposes. There is no charge for this initial consultation. However our staff of professional extortionists will contact you in the near future to further explain the benefits of our service, and to arrange for your schedule of payment. Remember to speak clearly at the sound of the tone. Thank you.
Hello, this is Susan. I don’t live here, so if you were trying to call me, you’ve dialed the wrong number. On the other hand, if you were trying to call John, Jim, or Eric, please leave your name and number at the tone. I don’t guarantee that one of them will call you back — only that I won’t.
Hi, This is Mike. Please leave a message as soon as possible and I’ll get back to you at the sound of the tone.
We’re sorry. You have reached an imaginary number. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
I don’t exist at the moment, but if you leave your message, name and number, I’ll call you back when I am…
HI! Leave me a message and tell me what I can do to… I mean, do FOR you.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this
Renee!!!! ROTFL!! OMG, I’m gonna have to use this one the next time I get schnockered…the less beers I drink indeed!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (gasp) HAHAHAHAHA…etc.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this
And when he gets to one beer, he can go “I just cannot hold my liquor anymore, see how rip-roaring drunk I get now on ONE beer”.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this
Do you believe in life after death?” the boss asked one of his employees.
“Yes, Sir.” the new recruit replied.
“Well, then, that makes everything just fine,” the boss went on. “After you left early yesterday to go to your grandmother’s funeral, she stopped in to see you
By The72John
March 10, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
Yeah, this one’s probably mildly offensive but…
A Catholic priest, a Boy Scout leader and a lawyer take some boys out on an adventure trip. On the flight over, there is engine trouble and the plane is about to go down.
“We have a problem”, says the pilot. “There are only three parachutes!”
The Boy Scout leader suggests they give them to the boys.
“Screw the boys,” shouts the lawyer.
“Is there time?” asks the priest.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 02:45 PM | Link to this
Oh those are good, I might be able to change my BellSouth voice mail from “You have reached 555-1212, please leave a message” to one of these.
By Mara
March 10, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this
This one’s a classic -
The Big List of Poopies:
Ghost Poopie The kind where you feel the Poopie come out, but there’s no poopie in the toilet.
Clean Poopie The kind where you poopie it out, see it in the toilet, but there is nothing on the toilet paper.
Wet Poopie The kind where you wipe your butt fifty times and it still feels unwiped, so you have to put some toilet paper between your butt and your underwear so you don’t ruin them with a stain.
Second Wave Poopie The kind that happens when you’re done poopie-ing and you’ve pulled your pants up to your knees, and you realize you have to poopie some more.
Turtle Poopie The kind of poopie that pops out a little and goes back in a few times before it finallly comes out
Pop-a-Vein-in-your-Forehead-Poopie The kind where you strain so much to get it out, you practically have a stroke.
Lincoln Log Poopie The kind of Poopie that is so huge you’re afraid to flush without first breaking it into little pieces with the plunger.
Gas-sy Poopie The kind where it’s so noisy, everyone within earshot is giggling!
Drinker Poopie The kind of Poopie you have the morning after a long night of drinking. It’s most noticeable trait is the skid marks on the bottom of the toilet.
Corn Poopie (Self explanatory)
Gee-I-Wish-I-Could-Poop Poopie The kind where you want to Poopie, but all you do is it on the toilet and fart a few times.
Spinal Tap Poopie That’s the kind when it hurts so badly coming out, you swear it was leaving you sideways.
Wet Cheeks Poopie (The Power Dump) The kind that comes out of your butt so fast, your butt cheeks get spashed with water.
Liquid Poopie The kind where yellowish-brown liquid shoots you of your butt and spashes all over the toilet bowl.
Mexican Poopie The kind that smells so bad your nose burns.
Upper Class Poopie The kind of Poopie that doesn’t smell.
The Suprise Poopie You are not even at the toilet, because you are sure you are about to fart, but, OOPS—-a Poopie!
The Dangling Poopie This Poopie refuses to drop into the toilet even though you know you are done poopie-ing. You just pray that a shake or two will cut it loose.
By The72John
March 10, 2006 02:48 PM | Link to this
Michael took Kevin along with him to confession for moral support. Kevin waited in the pews while Michael approached the confessional.
“Forgive me father, I have sinned, I have been with a woman.”
“Ah Michael,” sighed the priest, “you have grieved the Holy Spirit. Tell me, was it Mary McCarthy?”
“I can’t tell you, father,” answered Michael, “I promised I wouldn’t say, but forgive me, I have sinned, I have been with a woman.”
“Michael, this is not what you have been taught by Mother Church. Was it Sinead O’Rourke?”
“I can’t say, father, I promised I wouldn’t, but forgive me, I have sinned, I have been with a woman.”
“Ah, Michael, your poor mother and father would be heartbroken to know this. I wonder, was it Philomena Donnelly?”
“I can’t tell you, father, I promised, forgive me, I have been with a woman.”
“Michael, my son, I harboured such high hopes for you when you were an altar boy. Tell me, was it Therese Murphy?”
“Father, I can’t say, I promised, forgive me father, I have sinned, I have been with a woman.”
The priest pronounced, “Michael, you must say 50 Our Fathers and 30 Hail Marys.”
“Thank you, father,” a relieved Michael acknowledged, and went back to the pews where his friend Kevin was waiting.
“Michael, Michael, what did the father say?”
“He gave me 50 Our Fathers, 30 Hail Marys and four good leads.”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
LOL John!!!!!! OMG…that was good….LOL!!!!!
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
Lozen…LOVED the billboards.
Julia…you’re on a roll today, lady!
Is it time to go home, yet? I’m just done with the whole work thing today.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this
Not too far off from the lawyer and the priest standing in front of the church and see a little boy across the street.
punch line is lawyer goes “Out of what?”
(similar lawyer joke here a few weeks ago, the marooned-on-a-desert-island joke)
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
One day, a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, chemical engineer, and computer engineer were driving down the street in the same car when it broke down.
The mechanical engineer said, “I think a rod broke.”
The chemical engineer said, “The way it sputtered at the end, I think it’s not getting enough gas.”
The electrical engineer said, “I think there was a spark and something’s wrong with the electrical system.”
All three turned to the computer engineer and said, “What do you think?”
The computer engineer said, “I think we should all get out and then get back in.”
By Renee
March 10, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
Ummmm Mara, I was eating…thanks for the visuals…
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this
The computer engineer said, “I think we should all get out and then get back in.”
Must be from Redmond. LOL
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…you can make a quarter last 6 months?! You need to partake more often. That’s about the monthly consumption in my household.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
Renee…we’ll be TAKING RF’s 12 oz. bottles when the cotton mouth sets in!
By Mara
March 10, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this
Sorry, Renee. Figured this far into the afternoon…y’know. Didn’t mean to ruin your lunch.
:-(
By kimberly
March 10, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
NetB, sure… ever since I dumped that HOOVER I was dating last year. Hahaha! Perhaps you’re right. Maybe more IS better. {;->
By The72John
March 10, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this
Someone help me, I can’t stop…
Twelve priests were about to be ordained. The final test was for them to line up in a straight row, totally naked, while a beautiful, big-breasted nude model danced before them.
Each priest had a small bell attached to his p***. They were told that anyone whose bell rang when the nude model danced in front of them would not be ordained, because he had not reached a state of spiritual purity.
The beautiful model danced before the first candidate, with no reaction. She proceeded down the line with the same response from all the priests until she got to the final priest.
As she danced, his bell began to ring so loudly that it flew off and fell clattering to the ground. Embarrassed, he took a few steps forward and bent over to pick up the bell…
Then all the other bells started to ring.
By Renee
March 10, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this
LOL Net…yeah, if there is any left…
That’s okay Mara….I’m eating a late lunch. I drove home and took a nap during my lunch break…hence me eating now…
By Renee
March 10, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
LOL John….yours are the best….HILARIOUS!!!! Talking about laughing loud in a QUIET office!!!!!!!!
By Renee
March 10, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this
LOL @ Hoover!!!
By RF
March 10, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this
OMG- these are tooooo funny today!!
JOHN!!! That was soooo bad, but sooo funny!!
I had the chorus from “here’s a quarter, call someone who cares” on my answering machine. I didn’t get very many messages in those days, wonder why…
Dear GAWD, is this day over yet??!! I feel like I’m in the movie “Groundhog Day” at the point where he driving the truck off the cliff trying to end it….
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…more isn’t necessarily better…that is definitely a case of quality over quantity. Which reminds me that it’s about time to start some seeds for my Mrs. Madrigal Garden. 2004 was an excellent year!
By Julia
March 10, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
Netbanker-Thanks! It’s refreshing to have a day of jokes isn’t it. Friday’s are good days for it.
Great joke 72. (Unfortunately it’s too close to reality in the RCC.)
Poop jokes??? You questioned my kids jokes and now you’re doing poop jokes?! (Just kidding Mara.)
By RF
March 10, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this
JOHN-tooo funny!!
Net,Renee- who said I was sharing?? ;-)
Better have someone to drive when you get the munchies—I’ll be happily beyond the ability to do so!!
By RF
March 10, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
TRUST me kimberly, quality is much, MUCH more important. I got soooooooo sick off of quantity (stomach churning as I recall). NOT a good evening!!
By The72John
March 10, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this
Stop encouraging me…it’s a sickness…
Four nuns are standing in line at the gates of heaven. Peter asks the first if she has ever sinned.
“Well, once I looked at a man’s p***,” she said.
“Put some of this holy water on your eyes and you may enter heaven,” Peter told her.
He then asked the second nun if she had ever sinned.
“Well, once I held a man’s p***,” she replied. “Put your hand in this holy water and you may enter heaven,” he said.
Just then the fourth nun pushed ahead of the third nun.
“Why did you push ahead in line?” asked Peter.
“Because I want to gargle before she sits in it!” replied the nun.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
It HAS been a LOOOONNNNGGG week, yes? Or is it just me? (And all the people in my head who are also whining that they want to go home) I think it’s the sunshine and warm temperatures…spring fever begins. (Sorry, Renee.)
By lozen
March 10, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
Mara, Mara ROTFLMAO!!! Everybody in my office was staring at me and I couldn’t stop laughing about poopie. It has been forwarded to all my nurse friends.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this
ROFLMBunsOff at 72’s jokes today (especially the last one)!!!
I’ll bet you have a million of ‘em don’t you 72? Keep them coming…
By Renee
March 10, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
yeah, yeah rub it in…we’ve managed to make it to the 50’s today and for the next week but this time next week it will be back in the 20’s and snow showers…it’s too much….makes me miss Gawja in the worst way…
By RF
March 10, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this
Renee- Has the Ice Age ended up there? It was supposed to be in the 60’s in NYC today. Nice and WARM in the ATL today!!
By lozen
March 10, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this
72John, you are going to you know where if you don’t stop with the religion jokes! Please don’t stop.
By The72John
March 10, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this
Two more…
Jesus came upon a small crowd who had surrounded a young woman they believed to be an adulteress. They were preparing to stone her to death.
To calm the situation, Jesus said: “Whoever is without sin among you, let them cast the first stone.”
Suddenly, an old lady at the back of the crowd picked up a huge rock and lobbed it at the young woman, scoring a direct hit on her head. The unfortunate young lady collapsed dead on the spot.
Jesus looked over towards the old lady and said: “Do you know, Mother, sometimes you really p** me off.”
By Mara
March 10, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this
Fellow W2W’ers…I’m outta here. Have a great weekend, be careful, and we’ll see here on monday. Same bat time, same bat channel. XOXO (air kisses all…)
By Renee
March 10, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this
LOL JOHN too funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
I’ve been saving this one for last…it’s got a message!
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: “Stop. Don’t do it.”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he asked.
“Well, there’s so much to live for!”
“Like what?”
“Are you religious?”
He said, “Yes.”
I said, “Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?”
He said: “Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915.”
I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off.
By lozen
March 10, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this
Are Americans becoming obsessed with jokes to the detriment of the job?
By Julia
March 10, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this
(That would be funny if Mary was supposed to be without sin-which she wasn’t according to the bible.) Sorry-didn’t mean to get technical-it was only a joke. No harm-no foul. Keep em coming….:)
By RF
March 10, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
John—toooo funny!! Kinda fits here, doesn’t it??
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
Uh, RF? I don’t think I said anything about asking your permission. Kimberly, Renee, and I WILL be taking those bottles that are still full. And don’t even think the 3 of us can’t do it.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
sounds like semantics, once one was thrown, the rest were not the ‘first stone’ LOL
there is a religious sect in India, has a ‘do not let the first drop of alcohol touch your lips’ thing so they open the bottle, splash a little from their fingertips onto the ground, and are now covered for consuming the bottle, since the ‘first drops’ were splashed on the ground.
same sect has a ‘do not let tobacco touch your lips’ rule so people learned it was pretty easy to smoke a cigarette cupping the cig between your index finger and your middle finger, took care of the ‘touch lips’ part. LOL kind of a ‘chillum’ right there in your fisted hand.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this
Baptist joke not funny 72! :P
(But at least I can take a joke.)
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off
not sure I can laugh anymore today, after that one. LMAO
By Renee
March 10, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
Yeah RF!!!
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
This is one of my favorite times of year. Many call it Spring, but I prefer to think of it as ‘Shirtless Hotties in Piedmont Park Season.’ Hmmmm…I think Abby needs to trip to the dog park this weekend!
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this
Are Americans becoming obsessed with jokes to the detriment of the job
I’d say only on Friday, but detriment? too funny.
By RF
March 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
PUHHLEAASE!! Renee giggles enough now. Can you imagine her stoned?? kimberly—I bet she’d be too relaxed to care!! I’d probably share just because you guys would be so doggone entertaining!!
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
72J…keep going boy! I need that endorphin rush right now.
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this
Immaculate Conception = Mary was born free of original sin. I believe that Catholic Dogma holds that she remained free of sin.
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this
I figured Jack K and Julia would love those jokes, the Catholic ones at least. hahahahah
I just emailed the SplittingHairsBaptist one on to others.
By FatMoose
March 10, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this
Dad and son were walking one day and saw a male and female dog hung up whil crossing the road.
Son looks to dad and asks “Why is that dog on the other dogs back?”
Dad, deciding his son is not ready for the talk, explains “See, the dog on top has hurt his front paws and the dog on the bottom is helping him accross the street.”
The son replies “Isnt that just like a friend your trying to help!”
The dad says “How so, son?”
The son innocently replies “Just as you try to help a friend out, they screw you!”
The same father and son saw another pair of dogs hung up a few weeks later and the dad decided to explain to his son that they actually are making puppies.
Later that week, during a big nightime storm, the son goes to his parents room to sleep.
Upon entering he sees his dad on top of his mom and asks “What are you two doing?”
The father answers “Well, you remember the dogs that were making puppies? Mommy and I are making babies!”
To which the son replies “Bend momma over! I want a puppy!”
By lozen
March 10, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
72John, you are going to you know where if you don’t stop with the religion jokes! Please don’t stop.
By Jack K
March 10, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this
“Are Americans becomming obsessed with blogging to the detriment of their jobs”-this would be the better question! LOLOLOL!
Hey Netbanker, I have an honest question for you. How do you know whether a guy is gay or not and whether it’s ok to hit on him? What if you hit on a guy and he’s straight? Just trying to figure out how you guys know if someone’s gay.
I think I may have misjudged you guys. You seem like pretty nice people to me. I guess I’ve just never known anyone that was gay before and had pre-conceived ideas about the whole issue. I can see that that was wrong. I’m really sorry for pre-judging and mis-judging the gay community.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this
Thanks for getting my back, Renee! Who does RF think he is with the not sharing?! If all else fails one of us will have to create a distraction whilst the others take off with the goods so we can meet up at the rendez-vous point!
Well I poked myself with a fork and turns out I’m DONE! Have a great weekend! I’ll be the guy in the park with the Westie, drool leaking from the corner of my mouth, and head going back and forth like at a tennis match.
By Julia
March 10, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
72-I get that Catholic “dogma” says that. However, the bible says differently. I’ll stick with the bible over those guys any day. (Let’s please not get into that today though.) Any more jokes before 5pm???
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this
Hey Jack K, when you hit on a woman, how do you know she isn’t a lesbian? :-)
By lozen
March 10, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
That Baptist joke is so appropriate for this blog! I’m sending it to all my Unitarian Universalist, Quaker, Buddhists, pagan friends.
By RF
March 10, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
Net- you know what they say….children or a cute dog are the best ice breakers!! Don’t you LOVE the eye candy out there in the spring?? Ummm,ummm, ummmm!!
Did somebody hit Jack K over the head?? If that’s really you, you’ve impressed the heck out of me! Nice to see people can still learn, grow, and change!
Net- I’ll let you explain the gaydar. I tend to get a little wordy on the technical aspects of it…
By kimberly
March 10, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this
We can always get more bottles. (Imports only, please!) I know a place. {;->
By Renee
March 10, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this
LOL…Thanks Jack K…at first when I read I thought you said “you gays” and not “you guys”..
Anyway, you probably were talking to the gay men, my brothers, yet..I feel compelled to say thanks…hahaha.
RF..you are so on point…if you think I’m silly now….LMAO…I start to get on everyones nerves hahahaha
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
To which the son replies “Bend momma over! I want a puppy!”
or a little brother/sister lawyer? LMAO
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this
Jack K - see, everyone wears these bandanas, different colors and styles. and different pockets and methods of wearing indicate certain things.
I AM JOKING!
How do I learn if a woman is a lesbian when I ask her out? She either tells me directly or indicates she is in a ‘relationship’. either way she is saying NO. Of course if I already knew she was a lesbian, I would not be asking her out, now, would I?
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
Well Jack K since I’ve been in a relationship for 13.5 years I’m not really the best person to provide an answer about hitting on guys. It’s a pretty safe assumption that a man in a gay bar is gay although not necessarily. In that case, they’re obviously there with friends and are flattered to be hit on even though it won’t go further than that. That said, I’d say it’s about the same way a straight person knows if the each other is interested (eye contact, body language, smiling). IMO, unless you see a ring on the left hand ring finger it’s OK to hit on someone provided they seem to be interested.
What if you hit on a guy and he’s straight? Well…he either laughs, explains he’s flattered and straight or his face gets red, his hands clench into fists, and you RUN like Forrest Gump!
To be perfectly honest I’m not really sure there is way to know anymore without each saying so. Abercrombie & Fitch and the whole metrosexual thing has royally screwed up gaydar these days.
72 and RF…jump in and help me out guys.
I can imagine Renee and I giggling our heads off.
Probably share? Probably?! I thought we 3 meant more to you than that. I’m soooooo hurt! Come on Renee and Kimberly…we’ll just have to do this at my house so we can float around in the pool/hot tub while watching the big screen TV in the basement through the sliding glass doors and listening to the outside stereo.
By Jack K
March 10, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
RF and others-yes, it’s really ME. And I really did make those comments. I feel really bad for some of the things I posted in the past. You guys/gals are really nice and are just regular folks who want to live your lives the way you see fit.
And 72, I see your point on the issue of women. I guess you just never know do you. Great jokes by the way.
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this
I also salute you, Jack K. Nice to know that we’ve managed to convince yet another person that we’re just people.
By lozen
March 10, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this
Contrary to popular opinion, day and night are not held together by a hinge but rather by a joint. Old hippies never die …. but sometimes everyone around them turns into those clean and sober freaks and that is no darn fun. Good evening all. Have a great weekend.
By RF
March 10, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
Renee- I can imagine. I had a friend like that in high school who could make us all crazy, which just made her giggle more!!
Have a good weekend all. I have to go get my nine year old. First school dance—sniff, sniff—they grow up soooo fast!!
By Julia
March 10, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
72-does that mean I can tell an atheist joke now??? ;)
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
Sorry - all of my closest friends are straight males, so it tends to throw off the ‘dar.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
Ok..really leaving this time! Look out 285! Here I come and get outta the way!!
By RF
March 10, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this
net- sniff,sniff—I was only kidding!! HOT TUB??You never mentioned the HOT TUB before!! NOW that makes everything different. Hell, I’ll bring the imported stuff for that party!—LOLOL Of course, you realize I’ll be off to the side sipping with JBM and talking about you two giggling in the pool.
Geez, don’t remind me just how much I need a babysitter this weekend. Sounds like time to call the Momster and see if I can persuade her…
I just make eye contact and see what happens. If a guy is straight or not interested, he’ll look away. I tend not to go up until I feel pretty certain. With current fashion trends, it is hard to tell. The straight metrosexuals will definitely not hold eye contact long enough to be misread. You just know somehow. How do you know if a woman you meet is straight?? Don’t you kinda pick up on signals? Works the same for us.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
OMG…First school dance! Take LOTS of pictures RF! Oh..wait am I showing my age? Do they even still dress up for their first dance? I hope so and it doesn’t matter…lots of pictures!
By The72John
March 10, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
As long as your punchline isn’t “hah hah, you’re a moron”, sure.
By Jack K
March 10, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this
Sorry, guess it was a dumb question. Thanks for your honesty though.
All this talk about ‘mean joe GREEN’ is taking me back in time.
~~~flashback~~~
By Chilao
March 10, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
Julia - I think we are still waiting for the ‘there once was an atheist from Nantucket’ joke Jack K teased us with long ago.
By Netbanker
March 10, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this
I KNEW it and called your bluff! It’s ok to talk about us giggling because I’m sure it’ll be about you and JBM.
Jack K…another way to tell is that gay men get excited about Hot Tubs. grin
By FatMoose
March 10, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this
There once was a guy from nantucket; Who had a d!c& so long he could suc& it;
He said, with a grin, if my ear was a c^nt, I’d f$$k it;)
=================
There once was a man from kent; Had a d!ck so long that it bent;
To keep out of trouble - he put it in double; And instead of coming, he went.