AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2005 > November > 18 > Entry
Is it up to immigrants to fit in to their new society, or up to the society to adapt to diversity?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Years of resentment are escalating into violence in the Parisian suburbs over what it means to be French. Immigrants have torched thousands of cars, venting their anger over high unemployment and giving new meaning to a cultural melting pot.
We have the same problems here on U.S. soil from our own disenfranchised groups. Remember Rodney King? Police brutality against a black man incited other black people to take to the streets in much the same way as the French dissidents.
What’s happening over in France isn’t extraordinary. Labeling theory — as it is known in sociology — attributes this behavior to the consequences of labeling someone “deviant”. Sooner or later the perceived behavior will manifest.
While some would argue that French immigrants haven’t done enough to acclimate, I would argue for greater tolerance of cultural differences. It would be an over simplification to think that not “fitting in” is really at issue. The issue is prejudice.
Every country views their perceived national identity at constant risk. This is true whether Americans worry over the growing number of Hispanic immigrants taking away jobs or Europeans criticizing the expanding list of McDonald’s franchises as evidence of creeping characterless, American consumerism. It is this universal xenophobia that is at the root of cultural disputes that sometimes erupt into war. But fear has never stopped change. And I doubt it ever will. Just look at the statistics.
The Hispanic population will account for 44 percent of U.S. population growth through 2025, according to the U.S. Census. By 2025, the national white population, will barely tip half of all U.S. inhabitants. By 2010, California will have a majority minority population. In response to these imminent changes to the American demographic profile, white trepidation about becoming a minority group is increasing. Californians tried to pass an anti-immigrant proposition that attempted to exclude children of illegal immigrants from an education and health care.
What does it mean to be French? What does it mean to be an American? It means we’re human, and we should act like it by accepting differences and embracing change.
Rebuttal
Yes, racism must be tackled everywhere. But it’s not the underlying reason for France’s fix. In a way, France has actually had too much “tolerance of cultural differences,” and has not done enough to assimilate its Muslim immigrants into French culture.
All open countries — and all immigrants themselves — face the choice of how much to adapt arriving cultures, values and traditions into those of the host country. And if the host country is going to thrive– instead of being torn apart — immigrants must not only arrive on new soil, but assimilate fully into society.
As immigrant nations, the United States, Canada and Australia are true “melting pots” where diversity is celebrated but becomes part of the larger whole — and where each resident believes that we are all now on the same team. Regardless of our ethnic or religious backgrounds, we are first and foremost all Americans (or Canadians, or Australians…) and proud of it. Immigrants celebrate their heritage, but have the most powerful reason to fully adopt a new culture: out of all the cultures in the world, they actually chose one!
Unfortunately, many European countries haven’t encouraged assimilation, and many immigrants haven’t practiced it. The vast majority of the young Muslims involved in the French riots are actually the sons of immigrants, not the immigrants themselves. And although many grew up in France, they apparently never really felt a part of it. They’ve stayed in highly ethnic enclaves, worked with other immigrant families, attended the local mosque and many never adopted France’s national identity as their own. If the economy were steaming along, this disaffection might have remained suppressed. But combine France’s thundering unemployment rate (10 percent on average, and over 50 percent in some poor, ethnic enclaves) with a semi-socialist economy that strips poor residents of pride by making them dependent on government handouts, and it was only a matter of time before the whole simmering bundle exploded.
The French riots have complex roots, but both society and the immigrants themselves bear responsibility — and the idea of “fitting in” is critical whether we are talking about France or the United States. Because diversity can’t mean that we never become members of the same team.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Renee
November 21, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this
My answer is both. We need to adapt, diversity is good, however, immigrants need to fit in to our culture. I think a better word on our part than adapting is being more tolerant of other cultures, but it is their job to fit in with our ways, laws, and culture.
By chuck
November 21, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this
France is always held up by the left as being the model society. See what their so-called tolerance really is? It is smokescreen for the same underlying racism and cultural elitism exhibited by the left in this country. The libs always want to assume that they are morally superior to all of us knuckle draggers, but they are only “tolerant” of minorities as long as they don’t assert themselves. They are perfectly happy to have minorities around to make them feel good about themselves (someone to give a government check to)but the moment those same minorities ask for power and an equal place, the libs try to divert them to another cause like those bad Republicans. Case in point: An Black American is running for the Senate as a Republican in Maryland. Does the left point to this as an example of how minorities have equal footing in the political process? NO. Instead they call him all manner of racist epithets, like Uncle Tom, and they pelt him with Oreos.
Those of us who love diversity, the Republican majority, welcome him and all other minorities into the fold.
The French have exhibited the worst kind of racism…the kind that pats you on the back as long as you know your place.
By Lyrazel
November 21, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this
Hmmm, does no one mention what happens after colonization of other countries ends? Where is your understanding of history, ladies?
France was very big in carving up Africa to expand its empire to gut resources for profit, thus for many centuries governed such as Algiers, French Guyana, Ivory Coast were French Territories. The people spoke French, lived according to French laws, fought in French wars and now, after these Algerians move into France, they are immigrants? No they are French, oui? Did no one see Casablanca but me?
Diane, this is not like the Hispanic situation in America, its more like our policy about Guam, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, these territories are American, they pay American federal income tax, and when they come to the USA they expect to be treated as Americans with all rights by law… We have our difficulty with Hispanic illegals because American businesses keep hiring them for cheap labor, but the people of France are bickering with French people NOT immigrants! They speak French, pay French taxes but because their ethnic/color group is different they are not perceived by the white French as French despite their perception of themselves as being French.
Shaunti, you are lost in a fabricated happy-world-USA with comments like: Unfortunately, many European countries haven’t encouraged assimilation…the young Muslims involved in the French riots are actually the sons of immigrants, not the immigrants themselves. And although many grew up in France, they apparently never really felt a part of it. They’ve stayed in highly ethnic enclaves… Its one thing to be PUT in a ghetto because of economic difficulties but another thing not to be allowed to work because of skin color, and its not just Muslims who were in riot but Muslims are scapegoats to European problems now. Were the rioters not French? I notice you omitted saying: French Muslims…oooo! Hispanics are scapegoats in USAs troubles…before it was Blacks…before that it was Irish…before them it was Germans…before them it was Native Americans and blah blah blah, cultures always need somebody to scapegoat. Again I will pick at your use of the word: immigrant because these people WERE French from the beginning, and moved to the COUNTRY France.
and the idea of “fitting in� is critical whether we are talking about France or the United States. Because diversity can’t mean that we never become members of the same team. Which actually in USA truth is: Not In My Neighborhood, not in MY schools and ya all better speak MY language and pray to MY god MY WAY and not need MY social services!
By Jose Arcadio
November 21, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, you hit the nail on the head. Only thing: French Guyana is in South America.
Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States; thus, you do not need a passport to travel there. They also learn English and Spanish growing up. There is a Chili’s, Burger King, McDonald’s, Foot Locker, Walgreens, and even a Church’s chicken on the island. The people have assimiliated with the American culture, and have maintained their own identity. Only at Church’s in Puerto Rico can you get tostones.
Guadalupe, Martinique, Reunion and most of Africa was/is still a part of France.
As for the minority, yeah, mainly because the black americans that join Republican parties, etc. have totally lost their identity as a black american, that’s why they get oreos thrown at them.
By Renee
November 21, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
As for the minority, yeah, mainly because the black americans that join Republican parties, etc. have totally lost their identity as a black american, that’s why they get oreos thrown at them.
Jose, I would have to totally disagree with this statement. I consider myself neither conservative nor liberal, but I lean towards conservative regarding a lot of issues. I have not lost my identity as a black american, nor will I ever. To be black you must be liberal????
By Mara
November 21, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
France is considered by the left to be a model society? Hmmm. Chuck, you must not know very many liberals. I’m a liberal, and were I looking for a “model society” I would most likely look a bit farther north into Scandanavia. And that’s assuming that there is a “model” society to be found. All social structures have their drawbacks and flaws (even the U.S…gasp!) so one wonders what your side considers “model”…I have some ideas on what they would be, but I hesitate to assume that I understand Republicans. It really is pretty laughable when you Republicans try to articulate what a liberal thinks. All y’all end up doing is projecting your own fears and prejudices onto us, not even coming close to what a real liberal actually thinks about anything.
Oh, and people who were tossing racial stereo-types at Mr. Steele were fellow minority leaders and they were doing so as a comment about his throwing in with a political party that consistantly opposes legislation aimed at empowering minority groups. It’d be like Patricial Ireland joining “Concerned Womenfolk for ‘merika”
By Chilao
November 21, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
Someone a few weeks ago here tried to play up the religious war aspects of the French Riots.(“Those Muslims”) Come again? Hogwash I say. These recent French riots had as much to do with religion as the Newark/Detroit/Watts riots in the 1960s here in the USA had to do with religion. Economics, Economics.
I certainly believe that French racism, pure and simple, is the root cause of the French riots. Perhaps the French are not as enlightened as us Americans, after all.
Speaking of movies, The Battle Of Algiers, which has parallels to our current Iraq activity, is recommended. Algierian resistance to French colonialism. early 1960s.
America as a social ‘experiment’, is unique in the world, why it is such a great place. People came here to be part of something bigger than the nationality they left. Well, for the most part, most came here willingly. That never happened in France and the rest of Europe.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this
We should do whatever we need to do in order to make immigrants happy. We should require all of OUR children to speake three languages. To get a fast food job we need to be bi-lingual. In areas where there is a high consentration of immigrants, their native language should be used instead of English. Police and firefighters need to be versed in whatever is the predominant language in that area. We should give them drivering privileges, and a check every month so they have a place to stay and food to eat. The American tax payer can foot the bill for all of this. Isn’t political correctness great?
By Akeya
November 21, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
My experience with illegal immigrants is that many come here to “have a better life”, but end up living the same as they did in the country of their birth. They bring along with the good offerings of their culture, the vices which plague their culture. I am really frustrated with many of my friends because they are parents and don’t bother to learn the predominant language of their children’s schools. I end up being the “responsible parent” when it comes to my tutees education because their parents can ont so much as hold a decent conversation in English. This includes my fiance’s family as well as countless other families that I work with and have befriended. I think it is very important to learn the “language of the land.” Although it has not been made the official language, I think that we can count English as the official language because that is what children are INITIALLY taught in schools here (not including special language immersion schools and programs or the language one is taught in the home as their first language).
Accepting differences and embracing change is paramount to the development of society. However, I believe that illegal immigrants have to do their parts in educating themselves in American culture (whatever that it) and assimilating properly. No, it’s not really normal for people to live 12= people to a 2 oe 3 bedroom. No, it’s not okay to get p** drunk every weekend and get behind the wheel of your car and threaten the health, lives, and safetly of others, no it’s not okay to not learn English because “someone there will speak my language anyway”.
By Amazed (Independent Woman)
November 21, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
Don’t use the Republican party as a good example of what society should be, because people like Sue Burmeister, provides a nasty look into reality.
That is a woman who needs a reality “CHECK”.
Every part of this country has a mixture of various cultures, that’s what makes our country what it is today. I don’t care if signs are written in Chinese, Spanish or French - I just expect a version in English as well. Many of the restaurants I visit are more than happy to provide menu’s, etc in English.
Diversity is the most important basis of this country. For some reason, we expect everyone to evolve into what we believe they should be.
Without a little spice into the mix, we would be as boring as Iceland.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this
I think we have enough doodoo in the mix thankyou.
By Jose Arcadio
November 21, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
No, to be black does not mean that you have to be liberal. Look at the black republican representatives. You have Clarence Thomas. You have Condaleeza Rice. You have Alan Keyes who ran against Obama Barak. No, you don’t have to be liberal. When you have these people as black representatives of the Republican party, what do you think?
By Jack
November 21, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Jose. You make no sense. Put down the bong.
By Zack
November 21, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this
As usual, this question is infuriatingly easy to answer.
We do not owe it to any immigrant to slow down our society in order to make it easier for others to fit in. We do not owe it to anyone to do so much as give a Spanish translation on a traffic sign or an advertisement. We have every right, as a nation, to say that you have to become fluent in English before you’re given “citizen” status.
Sadly, we’re doing just the opposite. We’re abandoning our own pursuits as a nation in order to accommodate everyone else. We’re slowing down and slowing down and getting nothing accomplished.
I’m all for someone coming over here and wanting to live in a free country, but we’re seeing just the opposite. We’re seeing people come over here and try to change our free country into something that hurts us and accommodates them. Granted, not everyone is doing so, but many are.
Our current school system is similar to this situation. This “No Child Left Behind” idea is raw garbage. Instead of educating the masses, the curriculum has been changed and lowered to match that of the laziest student’s motivation, so instead of failing a few undeserving students, we’re ignoring the educational pursuits of many deserving students. I know of a teacher who is shaken up about going to class because the students misbehave so badly and because the school system won’t do anything about it, as reprimanding someone, according to the insane ACLU, will hurt some kid’s psyche, so school is no longer a place to learn but instead a place to show off the new ringer on your cellular phone. The masses aren’t becoming educated because the low-percentage students who don’t give a darn are being accommodated. No, my friend, Diane Glass, we do not put individual wishes over the good of the country. If you want to post your babble every week and go as far as to sign your name and put a picture there beside it, go ahead, but don’t expect those in the know to respect you or your ideology.
By Chilao
November 21, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this
Condaleeza Rice, from Birmingham, AL, has stated that she ended up a Republican because back when her grand Dad was going to register to vote, the Republicans allowed him to register, and the Democrats required all that special testing, (jokingly referred to as repeating the U.S. Constitution backwards) Granted, Southern Democrats of that day should not be confsed with today’s Democrats, but.
Ok, for the record, people immigrating to the US should learn the ENGLISH language. What was it at Hartsfield ahwile back? Somalians who had been in the Atlanta area for about 7-8 years, needed to take a test in Somali, since they could not take some required test in English. WTH? Previous immigrant groups were always interested in learning the language of the adopted country.
Alan Keyes got drafted to run against Obama because he was probably the only black man that would get votes in the southern IL Republican base areas. white areas, I should point out. LOL
By vince
November 21, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
They have to adapt. And we have to stop making it so easy to not adapt. Whenever I call a company for personal business, each time I hear the voice mail prompt, “Para la información en español, prensa dos,” I want to hang up.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this
I see that O.J. feels the legal system is unfair. He is so right. The system did Nicole & Ron’s family wrong. He really should crawl in a hole and die.
By Bill
November 21, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
In the 19th and early 20th centuries, Europeans and Scandinavians came to the US for a chance at a better life. Many of the patriarchs and matriarchs of the families may not have learned English due to age, but they assured that their children would learn English and be educated to the best of their ability. The result today is that we still have very rich ethnic presences across the country (German, Polish, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian, Finn, etc.) BUT the descendents of these first generation immigrants are Americans first, speak English, are be accepted into the mainstream of business and society. The same is generally true of Asian and Hispanic immigrants from years past. The difference in the new generation is that they are not moving to American, they are moving to a paycheck.
By Renee
November 21, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
I’m not a huge Clarence Thomas fan, but I don’t know how he is a bad example of a black republican, nor do I know how Condoleeza Rice could possibly be. I think anybody who calls Condoleeza an “uncle Tom” may not be truly aware of her accomplishments and who she is, separate from working for Bush. She is an intelligent black woman who has worked her way to the top, has let nothing hold her back, and she knows where she came from and what else she is trying to accomplish. Black people see another black person in power and want to call them an Uncle Tom with no rhyme nor reason to the statement. I don’t use the term that much but if I did I would have examples to back the statement up.
Oh, and I would vote for Condoleeza for president before I would vote for Jesse Jackson.
By Jose Arcadio
November 21, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
Thanks Jack. I retired my bong some time ago. And thanks Chilao for understanding exactly what I was talking about.
For once Zack, you have a point. A very good point. Our education system does promote laziness. You have some kids in 4th and 5th grades that do not know how to tell time or their multiplication facts. Good spelling is becoming obsolete.
The legal system works for those that have money. OJ really should be quiet. He and Robert Blake have nothing to say about the legal system except thanks. If you have enough money, you can basically do anything you want.
By Netbanker
November 21, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
I think Bill hit the nail on the head with his statement…The difference in the new generation is that they are not moving to American, they are moving to a paycheck.
If a private business wants to cater to immigrant groups and conduct business in a language other than English that’s fine. I have a problem with all the government spending to accomodate non-English speakers because it’s a cost to all tax payers. Additionally, what are the chances that the police, or 911 operator, or EMT’s will speak that language? While I tend to be socially liberal I do think that immigrants groups have a responsibility to learn the language of their adopted country while out in public and dealing with the government. This may seem at odds with being socially liberal, but I also chose to live in a non-English speaking country for a couple of years to broaden my view of the world. In order to open a bank account, go grocery shopping, visit the doctor, and do all things one does in their daily lives I had to speak the language of my adopted country. I chose to be there so the burden was on me not them.
It’s fine to celebrate one’s culture at home, but not to expect your adopted country to adapt fully to your native culture.
Renee…I hope you’re feeling better.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this
Just pokin at you Jose. Trying to stir it up.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Renee. Did you try the cure that NetB suggested? It works good. Even better with Nyquil taken afterward!
By Renee
November 21, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Thanks Netbanker! Feeling better, still barking from time to time and a little congested, but overall, ok.
Your comment was great. If you move here, you do so by choice, therefore you should adapt to the laws and the culture. At home, celebrate yours, or with anyone who is interested.
Going to Montreal I had several situations that proved to be interesting. I got a parking ticket (a black octagon with red outline means no parking). I was frustrated at first, because I didn’t know this sign meant no parking, and other cars were parked. And I talked to the police officer (or attempted to, he spoke limited English), but who could I be mad at besides myself. I didn’t get a book of street signs, which although not necessary, would have helped. The police didn’t give me a break at all, apparently the Canadians aren’t that fond of Americans (or maybe that’s just Quebec).
By Renee
November 21, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
Yes Jack I did, and I did the Nyquil chaser! I was out for the count in no time and slept really good and woke up feeling much better! Lol!
By BR
November 21, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this
In India, children generally learn three languages: hindi (national language), english, and their local language. They do this so that they will be more competitive in the global economy. There’s no thought of assimilation. They then become better educated, have incredible work ethic, and then they take American jobs. I know this discussion isn’t limited to language, but it would be nice to change the discussion from asking whether others should conform to our way of life to what we should do to make us and our kids more competitive globally, because clearly we’re falling behind.
By Ava
November 21, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
When my father escaped Castro’s Cuba, he basically had to start all over again here. What did he do? He became proficient in English, working at day-labor jobs until he could get re-certified in medicine (he was a doctor in Cuba) here in the U.S. He didn’t whine about no one appreciating the culture of his birth— he knew who he was, and made damned sure he assimilated where it mattered (e.g., in the workplace and amongst his American neighbors). He didn’t expect any social services (there really weren’t any abck then), and bent over backward to obey the laws because he didn’t want to be a poor steward to the country that took him in & gave him a home after he had to leave Cuba. While I believe most recent (within the past 10 years) immigrants are law-abiding & honest, too many come here illegally, bottle themselves up in ethnically closed enclaves, don’t bother to learn even rudimentary English, and behave in ways that may be marginally acceptable where they came from but are most decidedly NOT over here. The saddest part of this is that they get no encouragement to do otherwise from their “community leaders”, most of whom would lose their influence if these people actually stepped up, learned the language, and joined the mainstream enough so that they could think for themselves. You look at the most successful groups of immigrants, and what do they have in common? They’ve assimilated in their business and their educational spheres, even if not completely in their social interactions. I seldom disagree with Diane, but on this issue, she’s just not hitting it.
By Bruce
November 21, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
BR,
We are falling behind because unions have pushed business owners to a point where it is cheaper for them to outsource their work to other countries.
And if you think India is teaching their kids english you haven’t talked to a computer techinical support person lately…..
By chuck
November 21, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Jose, I’m glad you put away your bong, but you must have started using crack. I can’t believe you actually said the following with a straight face:
“As for the minority, yeah, mainly because the black americans that join Republican parties, etc. have totally lost their identity as a black american, that’s why they get oreos thrown at them.”
You really believe that garbage? You are worse than any redneck racist I know, though I don’t know many. To say that a minority has to THINK a certain way POLITICALLY to remain a minority is the worst type of racism. Maybe you should move back to CUBA.
Blacks, Latinos, Italians, Latvians and all other groups who were born in America or came here LEGALLY, are Americans. PERIOD. They are free to believe and participate in any political party or NO political party. If they choose to think for themselves instead of following lock-step some liberal agenda, they are to be commended, not harassed by racists such as yourself.
Mara, you only have to look as far as this blog’s previos topics to see the high regard with which you libs hold the French. They are just the kindof socialists ya’ll love. You can deny it now, but you weren’t denying it a few weeks ago when we were discussing healthcare. Hypocrite.
My model society is AMERICA you dimwit. With all its foibles, it is still the greatest country that has EVER EXISTED.
YOU TOO ARE APPARENTLY A RACIST!!
You said: “Oh, and people who were tossing racial stereo-types at Mr. Steele were fellow minority leaders and they were doing so as a comment about his throwing in with a political party that consistantly opposes legislation aimed at empowering minority groups. It’d be like Patricial Ireland joining “Concerned Womenfolk for ‘merikaâ€?”
Are you saying that it is OKAY to be RACIST as long as you have a good reason?!? What a LOAD OF CRAP!!! You libs love minorities as long as they don’t get UPPITY and start thinking for themselves. Did it ever occur to you that many minorities became successful WITHOUT GOVERNMENT HELP?!? Did it ever occur to you that many minorities see the policies of the democratic party as a HINDRANCE to becoming a full partner in American Democracy? NO IT DIDN’T. SHAME ON YOU.
By ChuckEeeesBack
November 21, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this
ChuckEeeesBack
By NativeAtlantan
November 21, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
We should do whatever we need to do in order to make immigrants happy. We should require all of OUR children to speake three languages. To get a fast food job we need to be bi-lingual. In areas where there is a high consentration of immigrants, their native language should be used instead of English. Police and firefighters need to be versed in whatever is the predominant language in that area. We should give them drivering privileges, and a check every month so they have a place to stay and food to eat. The American tax payer can foot the bill for all of this. Isn’t political correctness great?
I love pc thinking. It does wonders. This country was founded by diverse cultures and that should be celebrated. This country, however, is American, regardless of where you ro your ancestors came from and has its own unique culturederived from those combined cultures. When in Rome… as the saying goes. In America, we should respect everyone’s culture to the point of sacrificing our own, right? If I were in Europe and wanted to espouse American culture, then I’m just another arrogant American. Do as you say, not as you do, right, Europe?
By Lyrazel
November 21, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
BR One problem is that India does not take American jobs. The jobs are jobbed out by American corporations who find paying low wage with no benefits is the way to make larger profits. Its not India fault, nor India’s workforce fault, its American business that had screwed the American worker and we continue to screw the American worker by bringing in cheap goods from nations that do not provide minimum wage, or even safe job conditions yet because Americans want buy it CHEAP we put heads in the sand about what has really happened to the American labor market or issues like illegal immigrants. BTW, as GM/Ford etc. moves its bases to Canada because of higher education (Toyota, Nissan, GM all complain about the southern labor pool being under-educated and thus under-qualified) and national health care—thus low pension spending—whose fault is it that Canadian workers take these jobs? Opportunity waits for no one! This is Capitalism is it not? All hail the glory of making profit without scruples! Major American companies, from Delta Airline, Dell Computer, Microsoft, etc. have call-centers now in India and have laid off American telemarketers in droves. Software Mfg. in Silicon Valley has diminished because Americans are pathetically having arguments about God in Science or Not, oblivious to the sad fact no one gets educated in technology in public schools! We teach to a test, Donny can read but he is no longer given foreign language in school. Donny wont be able to find a job when he is 26 because he ONLY speaks English…its really ludicrous what a cesspool government regulations have made education.
Jose, the French colonized everywhere to make a profit off the locals…my mistake… Netbanger…its all well and good to require immigrants to learn the language but as jobs become scarce, as a supervisor, an American might be responsible to 5 people who speak different languages. The one who can speak 5 languages will get the job over the one who speaks English alone. This Nationalist sentiment works only in isolationist society… Why is it WE cant adapt like ALL OTHER COUNTRIES to learn other languages? 2/3 of all people in the Americas speak Spanish, some speak Portuguese some French. You cant compete on a global market with just English anymore… Renee, if you would have spoken French in Quebec you might have gotten a break, btw…Akeya more people are killed by cell-phone use while driving than by drunk drivers on the roads. Enjoy.
By Jose Arcadio
November 21, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Well Chuck, I was giving you a reason why oreos were being thrown at the black American. It has nothing to do with the way that a minority is thinking. Most black Americans are conservative. And I will say it again: most black Americans that have joined the Republican party have separated themselves from their black identity. I listed Clarence Thomas. I referenced Condaleeza Rice. I referenced Colin Powell.
How many of them go the distance to encourage other black Americans to try and strive to be where they are? How many joined Bill Cosby in saying that some things need to be changed in the black community, i.e., education. Just because they are black doesn’t mean that I have to agree with them or other blacks have to agree with them. That’s like saying that just because Hillary Clinton is a woman, that all women voters are going to vote for her if she runs for president.
By chuck
November 21, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
Ava, I commend your father. To me, that is an example of an American hero. He didn’t ask anything of this country that he didn’t earn. He came here LEGALLY. He worked hard and took care of his family even though he was not able to immediately participate in the more lucrative profession for which he had spent so much time in education and training. I know you must be proud of him.
By NativeAtlantan
November 21, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
One problem is that India does not take American jobs. The jobs are jobbed out by American corporations who find paying low wage with no benefits is the way to make larger profits. Its not India fault, nor India’s workforce fault, its American business that had screwed the American worker and we continue to screw the American worker by bringing in cheap goods from nations that do not provide minimum wage, or even safe job conditions yet because Americans want buy it CHEAP we put heads in the sand about what has really happened to the American labor market or issues like illegal immigrants. BTW, as GM/Ford etc. moves its bases to Canada because of higher education (Toyota, Nissan, GM all complain about the southern labor pool being under-educated and thus under-qualified) and national health care—thus low pension spending—whose fault is it that Canadian workers take these jobs? Opportunity waits for no one! This is Capitalism is it not? All hail the glory of making profit without scruples! Major American companies, from Delta Airline, Dell Computer, Microsoft, etc. have call-centers now in India and have laid off American telemarketers in droves. Software Mfg. in Silicon Valley has diminished because Americans are pathetically having arguments about God in Science or Not, oblivious to the sad fact no one gets educated in technology in public schools! We teach to a test, Donny can read but he is no longer given foreign language in school. Donny wont be able to find a job when he is 26 because he ONLY speaks English…its really ludicrous what a cesspool government regulations have made education.
So true, so true….
By chuck
November 21, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Jose, EVERY example you mentioned has said far more productive things than Cosby. They are ignored because they aren’t LIBERALS. They lead by both word AND example. While I agree with some of what Cosby said, it’s kind of hard to take him seriously when he himself has done what he admonished poor blacks for doing, i.e. having children by multiple women and out of wedlock. Your statement as quoted above, DOES NOT CONDEMN THE ATTACKS ON MR. STEELE, IT JUSTIFIES THEM. Are you saying that you denounce the actions of the democrats who have done the things I described? If not, my statement stands…You are a racist.
By chuck
November 21, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, What has been the “cataclysmic” result of what you described? All of these people have been laid off so we are at an all time high in UNEMPLOYMENT, RIGHT???? Nope, Our employment rate is relatively unchanged. It is about as low as it has ever been. The manufacturing jobs would have stayed here if not for the following in no particular order: ADA, Unions, Family Leave Act, LAWYERS, High taxes, high medical costs.
Not to mention the fact that there would be a lot more jobs available for AMERICANS, if you democrats (and some weak Republicans)were willing to round up and return ILLEGAL ALIENS to their LEGAL RESIDENCES.
By Jose Arcadio
November 21, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Please tell me how the people I listed have lead by word. None of them have ever said that some things need to change in the black community. They pretty much ignored the community. Yes, they set an example. But they also need to reach out. Campaign to the black community like the black democrats. Most black americans are conservative. Yet, they are pretty much ignored by Republicans. No real networking is done or real campaigning. Did Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, or George W. Bush show up at any of the historic black colleges?
As for Mr. Steele, no he should have been given a chance to speak. Every candidate should be allowed to debate issues, and present a decent argument.
By chuck
November 21, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
BTW, GM/Ford moved their plants to Canada because their unions are not as strong…the same reason your hero Barbara Streisand does all of her filming and studio work there.
By blablabla
November 21, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
i love diane and her nonsense.
While some would argue that French immigrants haven’t done enough to acclimate, I would argue for greater tolerance of cultural differences. It would be an over simplification to think that not “fitting in� is really at issue. The issue is prejudice.
we should send diane to france bc she has the answer. the french need to be more tolerant of people blowing up things. thanks, diane, you’re insane.
so if i were prejudiced against women and a pack of rabid ladies came to my house and burned it and all my cars, instead of becoming upset about it, i should think about how i have been prejudiced towards women in the past and become more tolerant of the differences between man and woman, to truly understand what it means to be a woman. HA!
here’s the real issue: unemployment in france among muslims is far higher than it is among the rest of workers. why is this? is it because the muslims haven’t bothered to acclimate themselves to the surrounding french culture? is it because minimum wages are very high in france and it is uneconomical to employ disaffected muslims who can’t speak french and are unaware of the surrounding culture? is it bc the french gov’t haven’t been giving enough to the disaffected muslim youth? or is it all of the above?
By Mara
November 21, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
You know, some people are just so eager to find something nasty to say that they toss logic to the wind and just go rabid with outrage. I give you…Chuck. Torchbearer for that great party of equality and acceptance, the Republicans. Never let it be said that the policies of the party didn’t reflect it’s base. Froth on Chuck. Call me all the names you want, doesn’t make ‘em true. What’s next, a rasberry and the taunting “nyah,nyah,nyah” from a school-yard bully? But then, play-ground politics is what you all do best anyway. God knows you can’t govern worth a hoot.
By Jack
November 21, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel is wound up! You go girl.
By Lyrazel
November 21, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Why bother judging human beings by amount of melanin in skin? Its so passé! When black is black it can be brown, coffee or caucasian with native genes swimming in the slimy soup of human genetics…we diminish America even more by maintaining these racial categories of Americans. If we are a melting pot society what is our boiling point to melt? What do you call someone who has relatives of 5 racial backgrounds and why are there never statistics to show how many are of mixed origin? Muts? like me… ;-)
Chuck what are you if you are a fiscally-conservative liberal? Or a conservative with liberal tendencies who watches Hollywood movies but goes to church? Or an uber-liberal who owns stock in Halburton to make profit like Michael Moore?
dumping people into categories only makes very lumpy gravy…in the melting pot…
By Lyrazel
November 21, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
ha ha ha…I got my wig in a twist and my knickers is full of me own opinion, Jack! Ha ha ha
By Jack
November 21, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Yes. Most of us are mutts.
By Netbanker
November 21, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel…I agree with your statements about needing to learn more than just English if only for the reason that studying another language and culture not only provides insight in the way others live, but also provides a comparison against which to measure your own. What also needs to be considered regarding the scenario you provided is that while those employees may speak another language if it is not for the purpose of conducting business then while helpful that the supervisor may speak all those other languages it is a moot point or should be from the business owner’s perspective.
Interestingly enough English is the international language of business even between non-native English speakers. This tends to be an outgrowth of it being easier to learn a common language for business than numerous languages. I saw this in practice while traveling as a student in Europe. Even leisure travelers advised that it wasn’t really practical to learn more than 3 languages and English tended to be the common demoninator.
From a purely economic standpoint the expense involved in offering government services/functions in languages other than English doesn’t justify the ‘benefit.’ Most of the conversations have revolved around immigrants regarding this topic. I recall a conversation years ago when Ebonics was proposed to be taught in schools. One of my black, female coworkers was outraged by that idea. Her position was that she was a VP of a large bank BECAUSE she could speak proper English when conducting business and out in the world. She said that she could and did throw down with her girlfriends when socializing or just goofing around, but that proper English was key to success. I heard her make that point several times when speaking to many of the young, black women in the office…especially those who accused her of ‘selling out.’
By chuck
November 21, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Condoleeza Rice Quotes:
I found a party that sees me as an individual, not as part of a group… In America, with education and hard work, it really does not matter where you come from - it matters where you are going.
Birmingham [Alabama] was odd. It was completely segregated. But the black community built its own world. I went to ballet classes and took French lessons and etiquette classes. My father had a picture of me when I was about four sitting on Santa Claus’s lap and I have this really odd look on my face, and I wonder if that’s because I’d never been that close to a white person before.
I was going to be so well prepared. And I was going to do all of these things that were revered in white society so well, that I would be armoured somehow from racism. I would be able to confront white society on its own terms. My family is third- generation college-educated. I should’ve gotten to where I am.
BTW, Jose, How is what Cosby said unlike the Republican philosophy of hard work and education as the keys to success, not government handouts?
By The72John
November 21, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this
No time for a long comment today, but just want to point out that the purpose of the Ebonics thing was NOT to teach Ebonics in schools. It was to classify Ebonics as a language of its own so that inner city schools would qualify for additional funds to teach English-as-a-second-language.
The purpose was to make the schools MORE capable of teaching proper English, not to teach ebonics.
By Lyrazel
November 22, 2005 08:03 AM | Link to this
Chuck, I notice you fail to mention NAFTA, the scourge of American jobs! Granted when companies move overseas they take the jobs with them. Levis is not returning, JP Stevens is not returning. GM/Ford are not returning and there is not a farmer in Vadalia who can pay minimum wage for onion pickers/planters…plus cooperate with Workers Comp. and various agencies American business owners must contend with if they have employees. How do you feel as a taxpayer about supporting the tax breaks these businesses still get? Immigration of illegals is reality because American business and farming demands it, because consumers in America want low prices. If the average American farm workers were paid minimum wage costs would skyrocket so we live in a period of as I love to say: Dont ask dont tell immigration.
What has the Republican administration done about illegal immigration since 9/11? What have the Democrats done (chuck, I think BOTH parties are two loathsome overfed bovines who need to be replaced by independent candidates). Two governors of Western states: Arizona and New Mexico cry for assistance to curb the flow—but nothing comes of Washington because the illegal farm workers keep prices low. If we took our military out of Iraq and put our troops on patrol along the borders, the flow of illegals would stop but the jobs that are gone are gone forever and there is very little left of the thriving blue collar jobs that made America so strong.
GM/Ford have received MAJOR tax breaks—what happens to all the cash American taxpayers put into the business? How much in state tax breaks did these businesses got when they built plants? How much of your hard earned tax dollars is spent providing the children of Wal-Mart workers with health care because the company wont? When 2/3 of the employees of a multi-billion dollar company cannot get health insurance from the company they are employed by because prices/wages are so low—who really suffers? You, the taxpayer. Isnt it time for change, Chuck? Arent you really tired of paying for the fat cat Republican/Democrat ideology that says: vote and let us screw you? Arent you tired of the men/women who vote for a war but fail to have one member of their family in the service? There are no Bush, no Cheney, no Kennedy family members serving duty, indeed only 2 senators have children in the military…but this is a shared sacrifice? Malarky! What we should do is have a war where only politicians and their children go on duty—maybe they would not make brand new budgets for military operations so the deficit of the country is not as obscene. Where is the money coming from, Chuck? Look in your pockets…your paycheck…you pay for the wink wink politics…
By chuck
November 22, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, you said:
What has the Republican administration done about illegal immigration since 9/11? What have the Democrats done (chuck, I think BOTH parties are two loathsome overfed bovines who need to be replaced by independent candidates). Two governors of Western states: Arizona and New Mexico cry for assistance to curb the flow—but nothing comes of Washington because the illegal farm workers keep prices low. If we took our military out of Iraq and put our troops on patrol along the borders, the flow of illegals would stop but the jobs that are gone are gone forever and there is very little left of the thriving blue collar jobs that made America so strong.
I can’t disagree with you there. I don’t think it is about low farm prices as much as it is trying not to offend the growing Hispanic/Latino voting block. I think this is THE MOST PRESSING ISSUE WE FACE TODAY. If we don’t get a handle on ILLEGAL immigration we are doomed as a country. ANY CANDIDATE who doesn’t propose stemming the flow of these illegals will not get my vote regardless of party.
NAFTA is not the bad guy here, though some industries are having a hard time adjusting. Walmart is not the problem either. The real problem is overzealous government regulation combined with the depression of wages that comes when you have 11 million illegal aliens who are willing to work for less.
By chuck
November 22, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this
As usual Mara, you completely ignored the substance of my post. Yes I called you a name or two…wah, wah, wah. The plain truth of the matter is that you ignored the question because you were confronted with the ugly truth about yourself…you are a racist. Once again, your quote and my questions. If you can answer them, why don’t you? If you can’t then stop whining.
You said: “Oh, and people who were tossing racial stereo-types at Mr. Steele were fellow minority leaders and they were doing so as a comment about his throwing in with a political party that consistantly opposes legislation aimed at empowering minority groups. It’d be like Patricial Ireland joining “Concerned Womenfolk for ‘merika��
Are you saying that it is OKAY to be RACIST as long as you have a good reason?!? What a LOAD OF CRAP!!! You libs love minorities as long as they don’t get UPPITY and start thinking for themselves. Did it ever occur to you that many minorities became successful WITHOUT GOVERNMENT HELP?!? Did it ever occur to you that many minorities see the policies of the democratic party as a HINDRANCE to becoming a full partner in American Democracy? NO IT DIDN’T. SHAME ON YOU.
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
72John- The only thing the innitiative for Ebonics brought about was stronger sentiment that something, in essence, is wrong with inner city children. It was supposed that they were not capable of learning English like everyone else. It worked to alienate these children even more from the mainstream, make them seem like they were in some way foreign. What better way to “prove” that black kids aren’t like other American children than by making them take ESOL? Hmmm…
By Mara
November 22, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this
(sigh) Chuck, exactly what did you want me to comment on? You feel free enough to put words in my mouth regarding whether I thought anti-Steele minorities were right to heckle and pelt him. Evidently adding “context” is as good as condoning. And not being a person of color, far be it from me (unlike you…) to assume that I know what they want and how they feel about their ethnic brothers who consort with those whom, in the past, have attempted to relegate them to the bottom of society. Whether their opinions and actions can be “racist” is debatable. That being said, what they think and what I think are not necessarily the same thing. But you feel confident enough to voice my views in regard to minorities, France, socialism, and medicine. Since you obviously know me and my opinions so well, what’s left to say except….you’re a wingnut? Nothing anyone says will alter what you think. You believe you are right and are perfectly willing to project your own discomfort with minorities onto others. See, once one of your kind decide you are right, it doesn’t matter whether or not you actually are. As I said before, you can call me a racist all you want, it doesn’t make it so. I find it rather amusing that you say your “ideal society” is America when you obviously have little or no respect for so many of the things that make the US great. Things like helping your neighbor. Like equality. Like freedom of expression. Like respect for others.
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this
72John- The initiative for Ebonica was completely ridiculous. It was a failed attempt to alienate even more inner-city (read:black) children. What better way to make them seem even more foreign and unintelligible than to convince people that they need ESOL?
It was absurd.
By blablabla
November 22, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
lyrazel - it is less a cost issue for wal-mart to provide health insurance for its employees, and more of a liability issue. for that you can thank congress, which passed legislation that says if you get coverage from your empoloyer, you can sue your employer for liabilities arising under that coverage (i.e. malpractice). doctor screws up and not only can you sue the doctor, you can sue your employer. lots of companies dumped their health care plans when that happened and haven’t gone back. it’s killed any willingness of small businesses to offer health insurance as they try to compete to attract new employees. big companies like wal-mart are the only ones that can truly handle that kind of liability, but they don’t want to touch that with a ten foot pole.
and at the end of the day, let’s face reality; the gov’t wants people to be uninsured. it creates a new problem that didn’t need to exist that now the gov’t can turn around and try to solve through additional bureaucracy. i give you…nationalized health care.
By Jose Arcadio
November 22, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
Coming at the ebonics debate from a linguistical point of few, how do you honestly believe that two people from totally different places that speak totally different languages going to sit down and communicate?
Imagine you moving to China, and not knowing any chinese. You have never encountered the chinese language, there are no chinese languages classes, and the people in China don’t want you to speak English. You are not separated from all English speaking people. The Chinese people don’t speak English either. How are you going to learn the language?
A pidgin and a creole, just like in Cape Verde will appear. Over time the two languages will merge, and become a totally different language. Does Cape Verdean sound like portuguese?
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
Jose- Why move to China not knowing any Chinese? You are setting yourself up for all kinds of problems. Furthermore, why not attempt to learn Chinese? Even further, would you really expect Chinese government to accomodate you simply because you move there, followed by millions more non-Chinese speakins Americans?
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this
Jose- Also, inner-city AMERICAN children are not from foreign countries, although the Ebonics initiative was a lame attempt at making them seem unAmerican in some way…
By Chilao
November 22, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
I think if millions of non-Chinese speaking Americans move to China for economic opportunites, and refuse to learn the language, the Chinese government should provide highways signs in two languages, and drivers license tests in two languages, and every other necessary communication in two languages, Chinese(which one? LOL), and English.
I jest, but that is exactly what is expected in America.
But I actually think us Americans really out to be learning Chinese, that way when we have some RedDawn experience, we can understand what the troops are saying. But act all dumb like ‘No Speaka Chinese* LMAO
Oh, the Renee experience yesterday, I am certain that the Canadienne Francois officer spoke English quite fine, but for some ‘dumb’ American tourist, was not about to. And being 1/2 French Canadian, I can have that attitude. And I am not calling Renee ‘dumb’.
By Chilao
November 22, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this
I think if millions of non-Chinese speaking Americans move to China for economic opportunites, and refuse to learn the language, the Chinese government should provide highways signs in two languages, and drivers license tests in two languages, and every other necessary communication in two languages, Chinese(which one? LOL), and English.
I jest, but that is exactly what is expected in America.
But I actually think us Americans really out to be learning Chinese, that way when we have some RedDawn experience, we can understand what the troops are saying. But act all dumb like ‘No Speaka Chinese* LMAO
Oh, the Renee experience yesterday, I am certain that the Canadienne Francais officer spoke English quite fine, but for some ‘dumb’ American tourist, was not about to. And being 1/2 French Canadian, I can have that attitude. And I am not calling Renee ‘dumb’.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
We need to dis this and talk about something else.
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this
Chilao- I am a HUGE advocate of being multilingual. It’s a requirement in my home! However, I think that it’s pertinent to learn the MAIN language of the country in which you choose to reside, or visit indefinitely. I would feel like an open target being somewhere I can’t understand the majority of what is being said… Maybe I’m just anal…
By Chilao
November 22, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
sorry on dupe, posting ‘difficulties’
By Jose Arcadio
November 22, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
The ebonics situation is talking about that the slaves from Africa never truly had the opportunity to learn English. They are saying that the ebnonics dialect of English was passed down from generation to generation., just like the scenario I presented about moving to China.
If you talk to older people, you will notice it. It is not a different language, but a different dialect.
No, they should not have made the children seem like foreigners. But they are right in assuming that African-American children are going to speak a different dialect of English. That’s a given.
Just like Caribbean Spanish. The Puerto Rican, Cuban, and Dominican versions sound totally different than Spain spanish.
By chuck
November 22, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this
I find it rather amusing that you say your “ideal society� is America when you obviously have little or no respect for so many of the things that make the US great. Things like helping your neighbor. Like equality. Like freedom of expression. Like respect for others.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black…I and almost ALL Republicans cherish those things more than life itself. Why do you think so many are willing to pay “the final full measure of devotion?”
I quoted YOUR OWN WORDS. I added nothing to them except a question. What I don’t understand is why you won’t answer a simple question that I will have now asked 3 times. Is it okay to hurl racial epithets for political purposes as it SEEMS THAT YOU ARE SAYING? When you said that they were saying those things to Mr. Steele because they disagreed with him politically, WERE YOU SAYING THAT UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS RACIALLY DEROGATORY COMMENTS ARE OKAY? Yes or No?
BTW, I went back and looked at a number of your posts on different topics and on a number of occasions you did exactly what you accused me of doing. You explained what other posters meant by what they said. I didn’t do that at all. I quoted what you said and asked you what you meant. That hardly qualifies as putting words in your mouth.
By The72John
November 22, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
Think whatever you like, Akeya. There were numerous interviews with the sponsors of the initiative - all dedicated educators teaching in inner cities. Their only aim was to help their students learn more. If you want to make it some kind of racist thing, that’s your business. I’m just stating facts.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
If Mom & Dad don’t speak good English and do not require the children to learn good English, they will of course speak a different dialect. They will also have minimum wage jobs.
By Netbanker
November 22, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the education on the driver behind the ebonics issue. Regardless of the reasoning many black Americans have chosen to separate themselves linguistically to the point that most of the general population can’t understand a thing that is being said. I’ve even seen anger on the part of ebonics speakers at the people who can’t understand. What is really screwed up about that scenario is that the Espeaker can understand everything the other person is saying and ultimately it is the Espeaker who does a disservice to themself in terms of getting a better job.
Chuck…it appears that you are making the common racist vs bigot usage mistake.
By Just Being Me
November 22, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
Yes I called you a name or two…wah, wah, wah. Not very Christ-like, Chuck.
LOL@ Jack’s ebonics.
By Just Being Me
November 22, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this
Jose, when you say “If you talk to older people, you will notice it,” what older people are you referring to? Or how old?
I grew up around my grandmother and great-grandmother - spent nearly as much time with them as I did with my own mother. My great-grandmother spoke nearly perfect English, as do my grandmother and mother. I suspect my great-grandmother learned it from her mother… I think I understand the point you’re trying to make, but I’ll have to disagree with the use of such a generalization.
By Gina
November 22, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this
Most of the Spanish speaking immigrants from South America are very poor and will not abide by the laws of subdivisions. They do bring property values down when they move into neighborhoods. Akeya stated it very well in an earlier post. No one wants to live next to a family with a village living in one house.
Another thing, I can’t stand how the Mexican, Columbian, etc. men look at women. They have a different culture and a different mentality when it comes to women.
I am a Black conservative and there are a growing number of us. My views on illegal immigration are strict. I say send them all back and let them come in legally.
By Just Being Me
November 22, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
Netbanker - I completely agree! Since my daughter began high school in August, I’ve noticed her trying to pick up what I refer to as a ghetto-Southern accent. It goes beyond just having an accent, and I wouldn’t even give it the term dialect… it’s just a lazy way of pronouncing words that some people CHOOSE to adopt. And, frankly, it drives me NUTS!!! Why some would intentionally choose to sound ignorant is beyond me, as much as it is beyond me why some who were taught “ebonics” aren’t eager to conform to proper American English.
I’m not even talking about the technical rules of grammar, if they could just get the basics down, I’d be happy.
By Jose Arcadio
November 22, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this
Please tell me what is proper American english. Is it the Boston form of English with the pronunciation of “kah” instead of “car”? Is it the mid-west? California? New York? Or is proper American English given to the people that speak on the news? If you notice, they were taught to speak that way. They have no regional accent.
As for the Grandmothers, you know what I am talking about. I know more than a couple of people that speak perfect standard English when they are out and about, but when they get home they speak a totally different way. Or when they go to say…an all black barbecue or family reunion or any informal setting. I have encountered very few that maintain their formal speaking in social contexts. Also, there is always those couple of relatives that will not follow the “standard” form of English, and look at you crazy when you choose to speak “standard” English.
By dee
November 22, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this
from By Jose Arcadio — No, to be black does not mean that you have to be liberal. Look at the black republican representatives. You have Clarence Thomas. You have Condaleeza Rice. You have Alan Keyes who ran against Obama Barak. No, you don’t have to be liberal. When you have these people as black representatives of the Republican party, what do you think?
I don’t know if that was supposed to be funny but I DIED laughing!!! I thought it was hilarious!!! Those what, three people (who are supposedly black), are all the Republican Party has to represent their diversity!! What a hoot!!!
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Jose- Children taught here in schools are given opportunities to learn English. What are you talking about? Even if they are not learning in school, there are libraries abound. I refuse to believe that even a regular public school system is ineffective in teaching basic English to children whose first language is English. Sadly, there are still many older blacks (and younger ones, to boot) who speak similar to the manner in which slaves spoke long ago. Jose- very true…
72John- it was racist. Most people know that inner-city is a prettied-up word for ghetto Black children. Nice blinders, though… We Dominicans often say “Dime” instead of “mande”, which is used by my fiance’s family. I’m well aware of the different dialects of Spanish. I grapple with this sometimes when talking to people from countries of which I am not familiar with their jargon.
Jack- very true. The only problem is that instead of people taking it upon themselves to learn to speak English well, they are blaming the government for their poor schools and even worse lives…
But, I digress…
Jose- there are books and programs that teach English. Regional English and words that people use in certain parts of the country wouldn’t necessarily be in English study books. The only ways to gain knowledge of certain regional words and phrases are to live in the region where the terms are being used, read books, have acquaintances that are natives of the regions, etc.
By Akeya
November 22, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
Explain this- there are free English classes EVERYWHERE!!
To learn another language one would have to pay out the wazoo.
Someone show me some free Japanese, Italian, Cambodian, Chinese, Spanish classes please!
By dee
November 22, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
from By Renee — I think anybody who calls Condoleeza an “uncle Tomâ€? may not be truly aware of her accomplishments and who she is, separate from working for Bush.*
No one had ever heard of her before Bush.
Black people see another black person in power and want to call them an Uncle Tom with no rhyme nor reason to the statement.
That’s not why black people use that name, nor are they jealous because anothe black is in power. Black people cheer for each other more loudly than anyone else — but please continue…
I don’t use the term that much but if I did I would have examples to back the statement up.
Good for you!
Oh, and I would vote for Condoleeza for president before I would vote for Jesse Jackson.
I don’t know if that was supposed to be funny, but I gotta tell you….that was hilarious!!!!
By chuck
November 22, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
NetB, I don’t think that I need a vocabulary lesson from you, but I appreciate it just the same.I used the exact term that was appropriate for the context.
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; “racist remarks” 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]
big·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bgt) n. One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
If you think about it, the remarks are decidedly racist. Calling Mr. Steele an oreo is the same thing as saying that he is white on the inside and that that is necessarily a BAD THING. Justifying those remarks as Mara did is also racist in my opinion, because it is endemic among white, liberal, elitists to believe that minorities are incapable of experiencing success without their (actually meaning the government) help. Republicans believe, almost universally, that minorities are completely equal and have the same abilities and strengths as any other race and are completely capable of using the tools of universal education, hard work and ingenuity to go as far as those things will take them.
The dirty little secret of the liberal left is that successful minorities are a worst case scenario for them, because successful people tend to vote Republican. Successful people want to protect what they have earned. If the left can continue to keep minorities dependent on government, they can keep them intact as a voting bloc.
The liberals feel the same way about the war in Iraq. The worst thing that could happen for them is an American victory and a peaceful Iraq. They know for a fact that their acts and words of dissension spur more attacks on our troops by giving the impression of a nation divided, but they don’t care. A defeat in Iraq is a victory for them at election time. Why else would they start these attacks within minutes of the release of negative polling data? Liberals are dispicable, but they aren’t the only ones that participate in that kind of politics. I’ve seen the same thing from some Republicans and I find it reprehensible.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
He said he put the bong away.
By Greg
November 22, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
So Chuck, you don’t look down on black people that wear their pants sagging, big tee shirts, have gold teeth in their mouths, and have braids?
I do not believe that Republicans think all minorities are the same. They prefer Condaleeza Rices, Clarence Thomases, etc. to Darius Thomas from around the way. If they did, they would make a conscious effort to get to know them. They ignore the vote, and won’t even attempt to win them over.
By Chilao
November 22, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Went to school with a Chinese woman who could have done the news on any TV station in the nation. She had been in North America three years and spoke no English when she left China for Canada, a year there and then 2 years in the US.
How did she do it? By watching TV news and learning to speak as the newscasters spoke.
By mike
November 22, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
Is it racist to propose that American culture is superior to Mexican culture? If it isn’t, why are they risking their lives by the thousands to get here? I don’t want Atlanta to look like Mexico City in 25 years, no matter how “enlightened” that mindset may be.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this
Greg. All minorities are not the same. All majorities are not the same. We have Bernie Marcus on one hand and various trailer trash on the other. The republicans won’t try to win their vote because there is no way they’ll vote republican.
By dee
November 22, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
from By chuck — Jose, EVERY example you mentioned has said far more productive things than Cosby. They are ignored because they aren’t LIBERALS.
This has go to be the funniest, most hilarious blog ever!!! You guys need to ditch those day jobs, Comedy Central need you!! (Now that Dave Chappelle is gone!!)
By dee
November 22, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
from By chuck — Lyrazel, What has been the “cataclysmicâ€? result of what you described? The manufacturing jobs would have stayed here if not for the following in no particular order: ADA, Unions, Family Leave Act, LAWYERS, High taxes, high medical costs.
Stop, stop, stop!! You guys are killing me!!! that is too funny!!! Do you mean to say that the Family Leave Act, (taking time out to take care of the parents/family/etc. that took care of you), is what’s hurting our job market now? OMIGOSH that is sooo funny!!! And I thought this was a “christian” society!!! What would Jesus do? HA!
By chuck
November 22, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
I don’t see many liberals in politics dressed like that either Greg. To me that is a matter of personal preference that has nothing to do with race but more to do with common sense. If you want to be successful or at least employed, you have to dress and present yourself in such a way that employers want you to to represent them to the public. There are accepted standards of dress and when you choose not to follow those standards you are less likely to be successful.
When I was a teenager in the 70’s I had hair down below my shoulders. I soon learned that the business world is not a place to make statements of individuality in appearance. Employers don’t want employees who drive customers away or who create controversy or who draw attention away from the product or service being offered.
As for Republicans not seeking the vote of blacks and other minorities, that is just a ridiculous statement. Republicans and democrats alike have their own voting bases. Both parties go after that group in the middle. I don’t think either party cares what color they are or what they wear. Statistically, blacks vote for democrats at about the 90% level. Strategists are going to spend the money where it has the best chance of getting voters to make a positive decision for their candidate. As I recall GW spoke at the NAACP meetings during both election cycles in spite of the statistics. If you believe like the Blacks in Maryland politics do, that it is a betrayal of your race to vote Republican there is little chance for positive political dialogue.
By Netbanker
November 22, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Jose…I could care less about what regional ‘dialect’ the person speaks. Let’s try starting with stop mumbling on top of sounding like you have a mouth full of marbles! That in and of itself would go a long a way toward others understanding what one is saying.
as for “I know more than a couple of people that speak perfect standard English when they are out and about, but when they get home they speak a totally different way.” So what?! That was one of my points when I started kicked off that line of conversation. It relates to culture…celbrate what you will and speak the way you wish at home, but when in the general public one should conform to the basic standards/general culture of America.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
The culture isn’t superior, the standard of living is.
By Greg
November 22, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
*Statistically, blacks vote for democrats at about the 90% level. Strategists are going to spend the money where it has the best chance of getting voters to make a positive decision for their candidate. *
So why not reach out for the black vote? The base people, who America has this warped belief that the middle vote, is this happy little, religious family in Kansas or Iowa that works real hard every day, and doesn’t want anything to disturb their way of life. If you don’t believe this, why is Middle America perceived to be the mid-west?
By Jack
November 22, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
Could it be that it is in the middle of America? Look at map???
By chuck
November 22, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
dee, you are obviously ignorant. The family leave act costs businesses AND government billions of dollars every year in replacement employees and/or lost productivity. I think that taking care of your family is immensely important. I don’t think however, that it is my employer’s responsibility to do it for me. If you actually read the post, that was only one of a long, though not nearly complete list of reasons.
Let me get this straight…Is it the liberal position now that government can’t put up a Christmas display on the courthouse lawn, BUT it CAN force a business to follow Christian principles? It is not personal responsibility if the government has to require it. I left a job for family reasons. That was my choice. I knew that working 70-90 hours a week wasn’t good for my wife or my kids. I took a considerable pay cut and don’t regret it one bit.
You want to talk comedy, look at yourself in the mirror as you talk out of your rear end.
By ChuckhasWeirdMemory
November 22, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
As I recall GW spoke at the NAACP meetings during both election cycles
As I recall, GW declined all offers to speak at the NAACP.
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archive/200502/CUL20050214a.html
By Chuckhasweirdmemory
November 22, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
Bush spoke to the NAACP before the Republican Convention in 2000.
By Greg
November 22, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
Net…wouldn’t that culture be subjective? If I never leave my neighborhood and see what you described around me, wouldn’t I think that everything around me is normal?
I lived in Alabama and Mississippi, and heard plenty of mumbling and talking like they had a mouth full of marbles. Until I moved away, and then went back to visit, I didn’t realize it.
As for the culture and basic standards, who dictates this? Is it not white people that held the predominant culture, etc. for years? Do they make concessions for other people, or are you just expected to conform and not add something to the culture? Twists, locks, braids are slowly becoming part of mainstream and basic/standards. For years, if you were black you had to perm your hair straight, or get weave to make yourself be part of the basic standards.
By Jack
November 22, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Now Chuck, be nice to Dee. She is entitled to her opinion the same as you.
By dee
November 22, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
*By chuck Condoleeza Rice Quotes:
I found a party that sees me as an individual, not as part of a group…*
Meaning I don’t want to be black — I want to be “other”.
I was going to be so well prepared. And I was going to do all of these things that were revered in white society so well, that I would be armoured somehow from racism.
Did it work?
I would be able to confront white society on its own terms.
Meaning, I was trying to become other; by assimiliating and immersing myself in another culture, I am able to pretend that that’s the only culture that matters and my culture is less. I have made myself over so that now I AM other and think like other — I have disassociated myself from anything or anyone that is not “other”.
BTW, Jose, How is what Cosby said unlike the Republican philosophy of hard work and education as the keys to success, not government handouts?
Obviously you have never read ALL of what Bill Cosby said. Here’s an excerpt:
Cosby said many young African Americans have little or no respect for the sacrifices their parents and grandparents made to gain their civil rights. “Understand, your children have to know where you came from,” he said. “Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till [a black in Mississippi who was tortured to death in 1955 after being accused of whistling at a white woman]. And you’re going to tell me you’re going to drop out? You’re going to tell me you’re going to steal from a store? Why? Remember the sacrifices others have made for you.
By dee
November 22, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
from By chuck — dee, you are obviously ignorant.
Thanks! Coming from a hillbilly that’s really a compliment!!
The family leave act costs businesses AND government billions of dollars every year in replacement employees and/or lost productivity.
Europeans are offered the same thing, as well as one month vacation time a year, yet their productivity thrives. I wonder how that’s possible……..
I think that taking care of your family is immensely important. I don’t think however, that it is my employer’s responsibility to do it for me.
He’s not!! He’s just saying, when you are through doing this important thing, you will still have a job with me. It may not be the same position you had before, but at least it will be a job that you can come back to when your family crisis is over.
If you actually read the post, that was only one of a long, though not nearly complete list of reasons.
The rest of them were funny too.
Let me get this straight…Is it the liberal position now that government can’t put up a Christmas display on the courthouse lawn, BUT it CAN force a business to follow Christian principles?
Huh? Where did that come from? Maybe from “left field” hee hee hee..
It is not personal responsibility if the government has to require it. I left a job for family reasons. That was my choice. I knew that working 70-90 hours a week wasn’t good for my wife or my kids. I took a considerable pay cut and don’t regret it one bit.
Good for you!! WWJD?
You want to talk comedy, look at yourself in the mirror as you talk out of your rear end.
The only rear end I’ll see in a mirror my friend is you. Sorry, truth hurts doesn’t it. Oh and by the way, WWJD? heee heee hee.
By dee
November 22, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
from Greg — I lived in Alabama and Mississippi, and heard plenty of mumbling and talking like they had a mouth full of marbles. Until I moved away, and then went back to visit, I didn’t realize it.
I know what you mean!!I lived in Wisconsin for 4 years and it took me a while to understand the locals!
By Jack
November 22, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Dee. You shouldn’t call him a hillbilly. it gives hillbillies a bad name.
By Netbanker
November 22, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this
Akeya…touche on the free English classes everywhere.
Chuck…can you back up your statement with some figures, studies, interviews with Iraqis…”They know for a fact that their acts and words of dissension spur more attacks on our troops by giving the impression of a nation divided”
By chuck
November 22, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
Rice is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. She did not abandon the black culture. She maintained her position that she was born with in the AMERICAN culture that includes EVERY RACE. Look at any newsreel, documentary or other visual depiction of blacks in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. Did they have sagging pants, gold teeth, and braids? No they looked just like most Americans, talked like most Americans and ACTED like most Americans. The main difference was the color of their skin. Did Dr. King speak in ebonics or advocate such? No he advocated an American Culture NOT a Black one. That is why the change happened.
As for Cosby, who was standing next to those grandparents and parents fighting for civil rights?…That’s right, it was REPUBLICANS, not democrats.
By The72John
November 22, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
I’m so glad I tuned in today. If not, I would have never realized that I secretly desipse all minorities and want to see them fail, or that I want more of our troops to die in Iraq.
Thank you, Chuck, for educating me about the TRUTH about liberals.
It is absolutely amazing to hear some of the insanity that comes out of the mouth of the Hannity-sucking, Limbaugh-gobbling nimrods out there. Do you really have such a distorted view of political philosophies? Do you ACTUALLY think that liberals believe all of the truly horrible things you suggest and that conservatives are the only good ones out there? Nothing like hearing someone who has NO IDEA what he’s talking about shoot his mouth off.
By dee
November 22, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
from By chuck - Rice is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. She did not abandon the black culture. She maintained her position that she was born with in the AMERICAN culture that includes EVERY RACE.
Please!! If that’s the case, we wouldn’t have a need for every culture to identify itself. e.g.: African American, Asian American, Italian American, Irish American, etc.
Look at any newsreel, documentary or other visual depiction of blacks in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. Did they have sagging pants, gold teeth, and braids?
Yes!! Braids have been a part of black culture that was carried over from Africa! That’s not going to change! Gold teeth….well honestly I think that’s a regional thing. When I visit places like Miami it seems that EVERYONE has gold teeth, but when I visit places like San Franciso, you wouldn’t be caught DEAD with gold teeth — it’s considered uncouth. Sagging pants are a trend. Like the poster stated before, in the 70s he had long hair and wore bell bottoms, well he grew up and he no longer care to wear such things. Sagging will go the way of pillbox hats and bell bottoms — trends don’t last forever.
Did Dr. King speak in ebonics or advocate such?
HA! If he did every racist in America would’ve done Mammy jokes!! Come on he was a DOCTOR of religion!! How would it looked if he would’ve been seen on telelvision going, “Ya’ll beez lettin us be free!
No he advocated an American Culture NOT a Black one. That is why the change happened.
He advocated a culture where blacks were EQUAL in society. And not considered a subculture or less than the white culture. He showed all Americans a window into the world that blacks in the south lived in daily and advocated change without violence. That’s is why the change happened — remember at that time the Black Panther Party, Malcolm X, and others were advocating radical change by force if necessary.
As for Cosby, who was standing next to those grandparents and parents fighting for civil rights?…That’s right, it was REPUBLICANS, not democrats.
I like you you’re funny!!! It was EVERYONE who believed a change was due. It was Republicans, Democraats, Catholics, Protestants, (I think I spelled it right), Jewish people, Asian people, rich people, and poor people. It was NOT one political party — it was a bunch of AMERICANS who said enough is enough, who stood up and crossed the boundaries and made a difference. It was people like Mrs. Violet Rizzo, from New York (?) who lost her life in the south driving people to the polls to register to vote. Come on!! How can you plug a political party into a massive movement for change like that?
By dee
November 22, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this
from Chuck - As for Cosby, who was standing next to those grandparents and parents fighting for civil rights?…That’s right, it was REPUBLICANS, not democrats.
Real quick question, what was these following individuals political affiliation before they turned Republican?
Newt Gingrich Strom Thurmond Ronald Reagan Elizabeth Dole
I think it was Democrat —- and they were Democrats back in the 50’s when minorities were being beaten at the polls when they were trying to vote.
By Lyrazel
November 23, 2005 07:34 AM | Link to this
Dee, was it the Polish influence that had you questioning them Wisconsinites? Yah-hey!
Blahblah, with the current dominion of the pharmaceutical/medical insurance industry in Washington there will never be a national health care system. Dont worry. Its a classic example of lobbyists strength over elected officials and is just one example of politicians to getting election payoff. Think farm subsidies, think oil/gas subsidies/big business tax breaks for overseas plants, etc. Welfare for the rich. Why did Home Depot need a tax break because it had to import ceiling fans from China? Zell Miller made sure it was on the spending bill before he dumped the Democratic party and retired Republican. Now thats not influence peddling its just how business in Washington is done. Of course, this will continue as huge donations continue to be sought by our elected officials seeking (re)election. I am an advocate of removing lobbyists from politics by limiting campaign fund to 1 mil per candidate to be spent on their election. Just 1 mil. (Who likes their commercials really?) If the average politician spends 74% of his/her time fundraising while in office, they are not helping their constituents. The war chests both Democrats and Republicans control is obscene considering they are elected officials of the people…ha ha ha..and surplus should go back to the people…if the jackass or white elephant does not win. Ha ha ha…I want my refund in small unmarked bills since I dont get no bloody tax cut…
By Renee
November 23, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
Ohhhhhhhh I missed the conversation yesterday. You know I have so much to say, but so little time to type. Dee, you made good points and good arguments, although I cannot agree with you at all regarding Condoleeza.
On a lighter note, we have lots and lots of snow up here. Boy do I miss Georgia. I don’t think in Georgia I’ve ever had a white Christmas, much less a white Thanksgiving.
By Renee
November 23, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this
Oh, I just scrolled up and read Dee’s comment to my praise of Condoleeza. My original comment was in response to Jose’s comment.
But I will entertain. Maybe you never heard of Condoleeza before, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t. She has served in the Bush administration since the late 80’s early 90’s I think (I can get exact dates). She has been a fixture for years and her accomplishment as a person, a woman, a black woman are enormous. And as a member of the black community, I praise her highly.
And no comedy here, I would vote for Condoleeza before I would vote for Jesse. Jesse to me does not emulate the qualities a president should carry. Yes, he has done a lot of civil rights work and continuous work in the black community (mostly positive, but not all) I don’t think that makes him a candidate for president. The comedy would be in him running again.
I know the black community just as well as you, I know the origination of the “uncle Tom” phrase. Be tolerant of other’s views and opinions. Just because you think it is so, doesn’t make it so, and if you have an argument back it up with facts. You did so yesterday in such a great way, but your reponse to me was over the top (in my opinion).
By Jack
November 23, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this
Jesse Jackson is nothing but a publicity whore. Hosea Williams hated Jesse because when MLK was shot Hosea saw Jesse rush over and smear MLK’s blood on himself so he could look good for the cameras. He’s been doing it ever since. Makes his money from companies he threatens to boycott. He has done SO much for civil rights.
By Renee
November 23, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this
Unfortunately, Jack, I have to agree with you. Any of the civil rights work I was speaking of is mostly before my lifetime. I hate when I see him somewhere now, I think he does more harm for the cause that he is fighting for than help. I did like Hosea, however! He was real to the end! (again, just my opinion).
By Jack
November 23, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this
I liked Hosea too. Send some of that snow down here. Pleeeeeeeese.
By blablabla
November 23, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this
by dee: Please!! If that’s the case, we wouldn’t have a need for every culture to identify itself. e.g.: African American, Asian American, Italian American, Irish American, etc.
in reality, dee, we don’t have a need for every culture to identify itself in that manner. most “african americans” i know don’t have the first thing to do with africa, and they sure as heck don’t include any white person actually born in africa in the definition of african american. ditto for the other hyphenated americans lest you think i’m picking on black folks.
just curious, but what part is more important to you, being african or being american?
By Just Being Me
November 23, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this
Okay, first off, what’s this I hear about braids??? Is there a general problem with braids? I get the sagging jeans part, though this doesn’t relate only to black Americans, I get the gold teeth thing - though I agree with whoever said that it is DEFINITELY regional (in NY, gold teeth went out in the early 90s; here in Atlanta, doesn’t look like they’re going “out” any time soon)… but why are we grouping braids in there with sagging jeans and gold teeth?
Secondly, Jose Arcadia, you said:
Please tell me what is proper American english. Is it the Boston form of English with the pronunciation of “kah� instead of “car�? Is it the mid-west? California? New York? Or is proper American English given to the people that speak on the news? If you notice, they were taught to speak that way. They have no regional accent.
Proper American English refers to the English grammar and spelling that Americans are taught - which for the most part does not vary from state to state. There is a difference, albeit relatively small, between the English that we speak, and the English that the British speak, thus my reference to proper American English. Get it?
Contrary to your (mis)understanding, this has nothing to do with dialect, pronunciation, accents or culture. Proper American English is proper American English from California to Maine, from North Dakota to Florida. Pronouncing a word “kah” instead of “car” is not incorrect English, it is an accent.
As for the Grandmothers, you know what I am talking about. I know more than a couple of people that speak perfect standard English when they are out and about, but when they get home they speak a totally different way. Or when they go to say…an all black barbecue or family reunion or any informal setting. I have encountered very few that maintain their formal speaking in social contexts. Also, there is always those couple of relatives that will not follow the “standard� form of English, and look at you crazy when you choose to speak “standard� English.
Jose, you initially said that if you talk to older people, you will notice it, referring to the black “dialect,” and I challenged that. Admittedly, many blacks, including myself, speak a much more relaxed English (slang) when it’s not inappropriate (i.e. in a non-professional and/or informal setting), but that’s not what you said. To imply that older black people speak with a different dialect, and that you will notice it if you speak to one, is absurd. It is not a dialect (unless you’re referring to regional dialects such as “geechies” in South Carolina, etc.), it is not an accent, it is slang.
It’s not much different from typing in shorthand or whatever the kids call it when instant messaging, or even blogging. You cut corners, ignore grammatical rules and spelling (or verbally, pronunciation) when you’re talking to someone whom you know will understand what you mean if you say it the easy or comfortable way.
Again, you digressed from your initial comment which was that in order to witness this black dialect one would just need to find an older black person. That’s ridiculous.
By blablabla
November 23, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
jesse jackson is awful. he may have stood for something earlier in his life, but now he’s just a publicity fiend. he’s all about money now. the fact that he holds himself out to be a leader of the black community is a negative for blacks in this country, IMO.
By Renee
November 23, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
Lol. I would send you some Jack if I could. It’s funny because it was raining all morning yesterday, and about 2:00 it changed over to snow and began accumulating immediately. Now if I was in Georgia, it never would have accumulated, no matter how much I tried. Nothing shuts down here, I would have been sent home from work immediately in Atlanta the way the snow was coming down. It’s snowing now, not as hard as yesterday, but still fairly constant. We are supposed to get a break this afternoon, but back this evening. Snow plows everywhere (I had never even seen one until I moved up here lol)
By Just Being Me
November 23, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
~waving~ Hi Renee!!!!!!!!!!!
By Lyrazel
November 23, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
The problem with Jesse Jackson…is being Jesse. It is why Emmanuel Lewis never takes him as his campaign manager. I mean, of all people to have taken on Arnold Schwarzeneger for governorship, why, damn if I was Californian I would have voted for Emmanuel! ….must put down bong…must put down bong… And with that note let us take a brief moment of silence to observe the passing of Ruth M. Siems, creator of Stove Top Stuffing… so apropos at this time of year…
By Renee
November 23, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
~~~waving~~~ HEY JBM!!! I can’t believe it, stranger!!
By blablabla
November 23, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this
renee - you can keep the snow. i moved here to get away from it (20+ years in ny). and i laugh when the city shuts down due to a dusting of snow on the ground. people making runs on the grocery store kill me.
By Renee
November 23, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this
Blabla - yeah nothing shuts down. But I know what I hated when I lived in Georgia was people from the north asking what the big deal was about the snow, that this was nothing. Yeah, it’s definitely nothing to northerners but it’s something to Georgia. People from Georgia dont know how to drive in it, and that’s why things shut down. The roads aren’t properly maintained for snow like they are here, and it wouldn’t make sense for us (I still say us) to invest tax dollars in snow equipment when it comes so infrequently. I understand schools closing in Georgia, and yes, I used to rush to the store buying milk and bread (I still don’t understand that). lol
By Just Being Me
November 23, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
blablabla, same here but I have to admit I appreciate Atlanta’s paranoia with the snow, or even a heavy rain! Twice while at my former company here in Atlanta, they shut down for heavy rain!!!
Meanwhile, in NY, I’ve trekked to work or school in 3 FEET not inches of snow!
By Just Being Me
November 23, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
LOL@ Renee being one of those rushing to the store for milk and bread!! Hilarious!!!! Girl, you know I can’t be blogging at a new job! I at least have to be here a couple of weeks before I get back on regularly! LOL! And as for my evenings… well, I’ll have to e-mail you on that one.
I agree though, that most Southerners can’t drive in snow (heck, Atlantans can’t drive when there’s no precipitation!!). Now, while I agree that we shouldn’t invest tax dollars in the type of equipment snowy states have, I think drivers could foot the bill for snow tires… as an empoyee I love having the day off, or being sent home early for a little sprinkling - but as a parent, I hate that the schools close down and if I were an employer, I’d hate to lose an entire day of productivity because of a bit of snow that could be driven through with proper tires.
By blablabla
November 23, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this
jbm, i love the fact that stuff shuts down for the lightest dusting of snow. i can always use a day or half-day off.
renee, when it snows, that’s when i go to the malls. bc nobody else can drive in it; i know the roads won’t be crowded and the mall will be deserted. it’s great. i’m shopping and everybody else is at kroger getting milk, water and eggs. the only thing that shuts us (and i do the same thing - i still say us when i refer to yankees) down is the ice. if it’s just snow, no problem.
By Renee
November 23, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
Yeah, I haven’t heard from you on email in a while, I figured you must be busy. Did you see House last night. It was excellent!
Make sure you email me though. Once I get off work, it’s cooking for me (while the fam sits around and watches and begs for taste tests) lol. I hope I get to relax a little bit.
As far as investing in snow tires in Georgia, maybe in the mountains, I think it would be a waste in Atlanta. I haven’t even gotten them here yet, lol. But they plow all the time and I don’t live anywhere remote so I think I will be ok. The problem with driving isn’t the snow, it’s the ice under the snow.
By Jack
November 23, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this
I usually rush to the liquor store when snow hits.
By dee
November 23, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
from Renee — I just scrolled up and read Dee’s comment to my praise of Condoleeza. My original comment was in response to Jose’s comment.
No disrespect intended Renee
Maybe you never heard of Condoleeza before, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us haven’t. She has served in the Bush administration since the late 80’s early 90’s I think (I can get exact dates).
Again like I stated, no one ever heard of her before Bush.
She has been a fixture for years and her accomplishment as a person, a woman, a black woman are enormous. And as a member of the black community, I praise her highly.
I don’t have any disrespect for Condoleeza’s accomplishments, what I disrespect are her “motives”. Some of the things that she’s done and said these past few years are suspect. Is she just spouting party ideology or does she really believe what she’s saying? If she really believes what she’s saying, I’m kinda scared that she’s the Secretary of State.
Again, no disrespect Renee but what you said about J. Jackson WAS funny!!! Who in their right minds WOULD vote for J. Jackson? He has NO idea how to run a city, notwithstanding a whole COUNTRY!! That was just too funny!!!
By dee
November 23, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
*from By blablabla — in reality, dee, we don’t have a need for every culture to identify itself in that manner. most “african americansâ€? i know don’t have the first thing to do with africa, and they sure as heck don’t include any white person actually born in africa in the definition of african american. ditto for the other hyphenated americans lest you think i’m picking on black folks.
just curious, but what part is more important to you, being african or being american?*
First how do you know what I am? I coud be a Lana Turner look a like, or a MaDonna look alike, or a Margaret Chow look a like. Or, I could be a GUY, (now wouldn’t that be scary?). Secondly why can’t people be both? Just because you’re an American does that mean you have to abandon your other culture as well? If I’m an American Indian, does that make me more American or less American because I’m also an Indian?
By Renee
November 23, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this
Thanks for clarifying Dee, I thought you were supporting Jesse, the way your comment was worded. I dont think Condoleeza has any “motives” but we can agree to disagree.
blablabla The african-american issue, I don’t have the energy to touch. I’ll be typing all day, lol. But what is the problem with identifying yourself as african-american. If you don’t agree with it or you don’t identify with the group, it doesn’t pertain to you. Personally, I identify as african-american. I have african ancestors and american ancestors (these are the two predominant cultures). I know people say they have scottish, german, polish etc. mixed in them. I say call yourself scottish-german-polish american, if youfeel like it’s too long, call yourself what makes YOU feel comfortable and what YOU feel YOU most identify with.
By Whiley
November 23, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this
I’m a proud Beige-slightly brown spotted-American. I speak clear English too.
By Jack
November 23, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
WHILEY! Happy Thanksgiving!
By Mike
November 23, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
“…if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, of birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiances here. Any man who says the is an America, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag…we have room for but one language here, and that is the English language…and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Teddy Rossevelt, 1907
By dee
November 23, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
Do not regard the critics as questionable patriots. What were Washington and Jefferson and Adams but profound critics of the colonial status quo? - Adlai Ewing Stevenson
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. - Edward Abbey
A politician will do anything to keep his job - even become a patriot. - William Randolph Hearst
Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain
By dee
November 23, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
A politician will do anything to keep his job - even become a patriot. William Randolph Hearst
Do not regard the critics as questionable patriots. What were Washington and Jefferson and Adams but profound critics of the colonial status quo? - Adlai Ewing Stevenson
Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it. — Mark Twain
By Commentator
November 23, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
William Randolph Hearst onto something there?
By Commentator
November 23, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
“It’s the first snowfall of the year and people don’t have the winter habits yet,” said state Trooper Robert Brophy at Fort Wayne, Ind. “Every year at the first snow, people forget how to drive since the end of last year’s snow.”
By Jack
November 23, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
Here in Atlanta, people lack driving skills all year.
By Whiley
November 23, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
U2 JACK !
:)
By blablabla
November 23, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
dee - i don’t know what you are, (and quite honestly i don’t care bc it doesn’t matter to me). but the question still stands unaswered.
to answer your question, no, you don’t have to ABANDON other cultures. i didn’t say that at all. it’s one thing to pay homage to your ancestral history and something different to have divided loyalties. somebody quoted teddy roosevelt and i think the quote is appropriate. in simplistic terms, people are either american, or they’re something else. in reality there are shades of grey, but i was mostly responding to your comment that people NEED to identify themselves as african american or latin american, etc, etc. people don’t NEED to identify themselves in a group at all. your actions and the content of your character define who you are, not your skin color, sexual preference or group affiliation.
renee - again, my point was simply that i don’t think people NEED to identify themselves as one group or another. and i’ll reiterate that paying homage to your cultural heritage and having divided loyalties are two different things. i don’t have a huge problem with those who feel they need to, but i don’t think its necessary by any stetch. who you are as a person SHOULD be all you need.
personally, i think group affiliations do more harm than good in our everyday lives. would you be more inclined to help the neighbor who lives on one side of you who’s african american, (in the name of helping the greater african american community), rather than help the white neighbor simply bc he/she is not a member of the african american community? you strike me as a reasonable person, so i would hope the answer is no, that you wouldn’t treat your neighbors any differently. my personal experience is that people that view themselves as some part of a group tend to only think about that group (or foremost about that group), and not focus on anything outside of that group. unfortunately, i believe that leads to self-segregation, which i don’t think helps anybody in the long run have improved race/cultural relations.
By Van
November 23, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
If an American woman were to work in Saudi Arabia, would their government adapt to the woman or would the woman have to adapt to Saudi Arabia.
If you move to a foreign country YOU must adapt to be accepted. It does not mean giving up your heritage, just blend in.
Otherwise this is a silly topic, not even worth the AJC’s ill used time.
By dee
November 23, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
from blablabla — dee - i don’t know what you are, (and quite honestly i don’t care bc it doesn’t matter to me). but the question still stands unaswered.
I answered your question with a question. Why can’t someone be both?
By Renee
November 23, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
blablabla - No I wouldn’t help out an african-american before I help out a white person. But to reply on what you were speaking on of belonging to a group makes you focus only on that group. I totally disagree with that. Being in touch with your cultural roots is a right we have. You can recognize where you come from while being able to coexist with the community. As a community there are differences, and one should be able to recognize and be proud of their differences. No matter if I move to Iceland, it doesn’t change the fact that I am african-american, gay, libertarian, and the list goes on and on.
If saw only inside the box of groups that I am grouped in, then I would have a small amount of people that I could interact with. A community is made of different cultures which should be embraced, not trying to get people to steer away from them. Even if you don’t recognize yourself as a socialogical group, you are. Whether it’s blonds, over or above average intelligence, white, baptist, whatever…it’s all a group, just different names.
By Boggled
November 23, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this
One would hope that the United States is somewhat more complex in terms of its dealings with others than Saudi Arabia.
By Michael H. Smith
November 24, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
Rebuttal to one woman @ woman to woman
The American immigration history admittedly is a sorted affair, diverse a plenty, however facts have revealed its’ discriminating course. Our nations early settlers, immigrants, soon to be our nations founders, were European invaders predominately British who had no entry papers of authorization, equipped only with a prospective guided by what would become known as Manifest Destiny. These undocumented persons having orders directly from God would replace the anti-immigrant heathen indigenes, who despite their fierce universal xenophobia eventually would succumb and surrender lands, languages, and cultures, even their very identities to the hegemony of an uncontrolled European number pressing them nearly out of existence from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
Do you remember these Americans Ms. Glass?
Perhaps they should have acted like…. humans…. accepted differences…. embraced changes?
After all, had these inhumane xenophobic nativists heathens done as you suggest Ms. Glass, perhaps these fearful untrusting millions of begrudging anti-immigrant American nativists could have avoided genocide?
In your version of America Diane, I can only see the white flag of victory being raised in surrender to Mexico, before I’d have a chance to contact any far distant relatives in Muscogee, Oklahoma to see if any vacant Creek Teepees remain available to rent on the reservation.
What’s happening here in America isn’t extraordinary, either Ms. Glass. Mislabeling theory – known in psychology as alethophobia (abnormal fear of the truth) – attributes any behavior revealing honesty as “deviant�. Sooner or latter this behavior of obscuring the truth will manifest that no lie told long enough or big enough can ever hide the facts.
Mislabeling illegal aliens as undocumented persons is a lairs means of dismissing a crime.
Mislabeling the identity of Mexicans immigrants as Hispanic – a culture – or as Latino – a language – masquerades the person’s identity in attempts to remove the focus in addressing an unconstitutional invasion.
Mislabeling the Mexican population as the culture Hispanic, attempts to hide the truth revealed in these immigration facts:
Legal immigrants from Mexico in number leads all other nationals from around the world residing in the United States, by a ratio of 5 to 1 in some cases, by far more in others. Oh what an abundance of diversity…. NOT!
Illegal immigrations now exceed legal immigrations into the United States, where at least 57% of all illegal aliens are Mexican citizens. An illegal alien population that is now set in the range of, from 11 million according The Pew Hispanic Center and The Center for Immigration Studies to the lofty height of 20 million estimated by Bear Stearns.
In 46 of 50 states the Mexican government has Consulates to issue Matricula Consular cards in aiding their citizens to function illegal inside the United States. What other nation has 46 Consulates in the United States? It certainly is not a country by the name of Hispanic; no, it is none other than the corrupt rogue nation of Mexico.
Mislabeling Mexicans coming to the United States Legally and Illegally as just people with good hearts only wanting to feed their families back home in doing jobs even blacks won’t do in this country is a crock chocked full of hooey! The United States of America has, and continues to be, “profiled� and “targeted� by rogue Mexico and the Mexican people. In a recent interview a Cox international correspondent had a Q&A with Vicente’ Fox wherein Vicente’ made his, and the Mexican governments true intentions known. Mexico the most corrupt nation in the Western Hemisphere with a 300-year track record of persistent failure to produce a viable vibrant economy of inclusion intends to integrate that miserable failure into the U.S. economy. Essentially stealing, yes stealing, an economy the corrupt, oppressive and abusive Mexican oligarchy government and Mr. Fox refuse to create within Mexico. Mexico disenfranchises over 40% of its’ Mexican citizens now living in Third World poverty.
The afore listed itinerary, reveals but the proverbial tip of a body of crushing evidence, predominately left unexposed.
Should you and sundry AJC columnist ever overcome the bout of alethophobia so profusely prohibiting your assimilations as Americans, the distinction between immigration “To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization�, to that, of this Mexican invasion no less tantamount in scope and intent than the one which nearly annihilated a part of my linage, then the difference shall become apparent rendering the question, “Is it up to immigrants to fit into their new society, or up to the society to adapt to diversity?� invalid.
If you are an American Dr. Glass, you don’t have to ask what it means to be one.
Sincerely,
Michael H. Smith
Lawrenceville, GA
By Whiley
November 25, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this
Why would a woman want to work & live in Saudi Arabia anyway??! She’d be stripped of most of her rights! I personally boycott all those countries that treat women so badly. This includes ARUBA.
We are talking about THE UNITED STATES. Should immigrants adapt to US? I say without a doubt yes ! Gee how awful it is to adopt a culture of freedom.
By Glenda Adams
November 25, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
It is obvious that Ms. Glass doesn’t understand what is really going on in France and the importance of a country being a TRUE melting pot. I doubt if she has spent any time in France trying to find the FACTS. My husband and I have spent a lot of time in France and we have friends in France and Belgium (a country with many of the same problems). The Muslim community in France generally speaking does not want to become French, they want the French to change and abandon their culture. Don’t get me wrong, I really don’t care for France. They have the backbone of a snail, but maintaining their culture is vital to their survival. If the Muslim community doesn’t want to melt into their culture they need to go somewhere where the Muslim culture is predominant not expect France or any country to abandon their culture.
By Van
November 25, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Whiley, I am trying to show the same question using a different country. The radicals in this country always feel we are wrong, no matter what we do.
Using Saudi Arabia, I am trying to see if anyone out there even understands the problems we have here. People that come to this country, either via legal or illegal means should adapt to what we consider normal ways of live. Speaking the local language, observing the local social norms and respecting the host country.
The majority of legal immigrates do this. While older individuals may not learn the language, they are insistant that someone in the family learn it.
Our next door neighbors are from VietNam, though they are older, we can understand each other. They are friendly folks, that are very family centered. They have embraced the american dream and are reaping the rewards.
By Whiley
November 25, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this
Ah, understood Van. Good post.
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November 25, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
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November 25, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this
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By Tom
November 28, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
The United States was founded on Immigrants-we all have immigrant ancestory. The current wave of immigrants are coming to the U.S. for much the same reason that our ancestors came here. The difference between now and then is that a majority of the influx of immigrants here remain here illegally placing a burden on our social and educational system all the while contributing little to nothing to our tax system. I think all the anger and resentment towards the immigrants is being misdirected, the real blame for all the problems that have come about due to the large numbers of illegal immigrants should be placed on those in our federal, state and local governments(the ones you voted in)as well as businesses who continue to encourage the problem to continue. Vent to your politicians-these are the people responsible for creating the policies that apply in our federal/state/local govt’s. Until changes are made at this level all the resentment, anger and/or concern will go nowhere thus the problem will never be solved.
By Michael H. Smith
December 1, 2005 07:16 AM | Link to this
The United States was founded “by Immigrants�, English invaders to be precise, intruders on indigenous lands, belonging to America’s indigenous people. This is the historically correct version not the “politically correct� diversion. We are not all immigrants either, most of us – U.S. Citizens – are “the descendants of immigrants� and some are indigenous yet others partially indigenous descendants; again the historically correct version, not the “politically correct� diversion, propagated by people suffering from alethophobia.
The politicians have heard our many grievances, as of now the Congress will take up immigration reform sometime likely in February to make redress. This Venter’s anger is directed at two derelict Governments: that of the United States for violating Constitutional mandates found in the articles of our Constitution, and that of a so-called government, the corrupt oppressive abusive Mafioso oligarchy of Mexico, which should have ceased to exist over a century and a half ago.
This Venter’s concerns are addressed in the following:
Legislation known as the True Enforcement Act H. R. 4313 authored by Reps. Duncan Hunter and Virgil Goode introduced in the House, the Enforcement First Act H.R. 3938 authored by Rep. J.D. Hayworth and H.R. 3137 the CLEAR Act authored by Georgia’s own honorable Rep. Charlie Norwood will redress the grievances of all Pro American Immigration Reform advocates. Much to the chagrin of Vicente’ Fox, his Mexican loyalist insurgency operating in this country, President George (“Jorge’ W. Arbusto�) Bush and his Mercantilists constituency notwithstanding the Anti-American sentiment rendering Op Ed “color commentators� featured so flagrantly throughout this nation’s print media.
True Enforcement, Enforcement First and the Clear Act contain provisions to: secure our borders, fine employers who hire illegal aliens, extend federal immigration enforcement powers to the local government level and DEPORTATION OF ILLEGAL ALIENS.