AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2005 > September > 15 > Entry
Should aid be allowed to promote religious messages during disaster relief?
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Days after Katrina hit, as exhausted disaster responders helped the hurting, the president of American Atheists criticized “religion-based ‘aid’ groups” for bringing “evangelists” into the disaster area. “People need material aid,” Ellen Johnson said, “not prayers and preaching.”
Now, most observers are grateful for the extensive relief efforts of religious groups. But even so, some grow uncomfortable with those groups actually fulfilling their mission by meeting people’s needs as fully as they can — including the spiritual needs that rise up in times of crisis. Society has so tried to sequester faith away (it belongs in church, not out in public!), that some can’t imagine that that could be what vulnerable people are aching for.
All disaster response, religious or not, concentrates most on physical needs. But if devastated victims are seeking more –– actively seeking the comfort of a Solid Rock amid the shifting sands — it would be cruel to withhold it.
Dr. Bob Reccord heads the North American operations of the Southern Baptist Convention, including their mammoth disaster response operations. And as he told me recently, “I’ve been in a lot of disaster relief settings, and I have never seen anyone respond ‘Don’t push that religious stuff on me.’ When physical trauma and need exist there is inevitably a deep-seated spiritual need in the heart of people. Nobody puts it there, nobody tries to create it, it’s simply there because of the tenuous nature of life. So in addition to meeting someone’s physical needs first and foremost, we often meet spiritual needs. But we never force anything on anybody. We are simply working for the greatest benefit to victims, whatever their needs are.”
Most people of faith do not respond to disaster in order to “push religion,” but out of a heart of love and compassion for those who are hurting. That spiritual response may not always be done perfectly, but it must be able to be done. Because, as Dr. Reccord put it, “In days of hopelessness, we can offer hope. And if people have hope again, their resiliency will come through and take care of itself.”
Rebuttal
For those of you who believe in the power of prayer, I sure hope you were praying for Katrina’s victims long before the formally sanctioned “day of prayer” granted by President Bush. This officious day of remembrance smells a lot like a Marxian opiate to me. Otherwise, how could I explain the oddity of our leader violating our First Amendment right to the separation of church and state? Because, as Shaunti is oft to point out: Secularism is also a religious belief, one that isn’t included in official calls of prayer, or the persistent annoying sound of evangelical proselytizing.
Shaunti deflects who is really responsible because what we’re talking about are Christian aid relief organizations, not all “religious-based” groups. Other world religions don’t have the same single-minded call to convert, as there is in Christian theology.
Which is why it’s naïve to think evangelical aid workers are only there to help. Missionaries have a “mission” and evangelicals are “committed”. They may provide assistance to those in need, but they aren’t “in it” to help so much as to amass obedient followers.
The Christian and Missionary Alliance website clearly states that their intent is to encourage “believers of diverse backgrounds and theological traditions to unite in an alliance to know and exalt Jesus Christ”. The National Association of Evangelicals has identical objectives to “extend the Kingdom of God” through fellowship. Then there’s the modern day tenets of the “Jews for Jesus” organization that litters the streets with pamphlets in pursuit of passing yarmulkes. And let’s not forget that Jesus told his posse to be “fishers of men” before ascending to the heavens.
I think it’s much more noble (not to mention Christian) to give aid with no ulterior motive. I also think it’s dishonest to assist someone in the guise of helping him while he’s vulnerable, like a wolf in a Grimm’s fairy tale. Relief workers would do better to assist (and not persist) in spreading the Gospel, simply because helping someone is kind; stalking the weak and vulnerable is predatory.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Garth Patterson
September 18, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
“Society has so tried to sequester faith away (it belongs in church, not out in public!)”
With this statement, Shaunti classically illustrates the (in my opinion the deliberate) obfuscation of the term “God in public life”, ie., getting God and/or religion into government. Its an obfuscation because the term “in public life” portrays living one’s religious practices out ‘in public’ (which of course includes in the government, but fundamentalists conveniently leave mentioning that part out). And by and large relgious people have no real complaint with living ones religion (supposedly) in front of other people. Out in public.
When you mix that in with the tearing down of the wall of separation of church and state, it makes that tearing down more palatable, more socially acceptable, … and a more deceptive act by the Religious Reich— err, Right.
As far as offering religiouos materials/prayers, as long as its done by a private group, no problems. But when its done by a public (read government sponsored) group, then we have problems, and I can readily agree with American Atheists about their complaint.
By John
September 18, 2005 05:48 PM | Link to this
WOW! What a clear difference between the ideology of light and life…as apposed to the ideology of darkness and death.
By Sydney
September 18, 2005 07:07 PM | Link to this
Of course it is expected that Christian aid groups promote their validation routine when giving aid. “Please, Please, think like me, Please?”. Or to conversely state: What is the difference between a cult and an organized religion? About 10,000 members. No, don’t need some blog moron to indicate to me there are more than 10,000 Christians. Probably that many in individual interpretaton groups, otherwise called Denominations.
The real question is: Are there governmental dollars involved? Of course there are, thanks to our upcoming State Theocracy. Y’all getting out your Sunday Worshipping cards? Might need them in the future for any economic transaction. And if that is not your day for worshipping, you are just SOOL. We got the walled-in housing project for you guys. FEMA might even direct.
Sidebar: who is the largest purchaser of modular prison cells? FEMA. Just in case us natives get restless when the state religion comes down.
For the pleasantness of it all, see the movie A Handmaid’s Tale.
By MamaS
September 18, 2005 10:15 PM | Link to this
If you think Christians are there not so much to help as to amass obedient followers then you know very little about Christians. The New Testament directs us to aid the less fortunate I was sick and you visited me, I was naked and you clothed me because of their need. The Presbyterian Church in McDonough (Henry County) mobilized volunteers and processed over 10,000 guests in one week, providing hot meals, clothing, housing, school registrations and medical care. Their volunteers were more efficient than the professional Red Cross workers. Governor and Mrs. Purdue even toured this facility. People who have lost everything need hope even more than they need a handout. Who is in more of a position to offer hope: Christian volunteers or FEMA employees?
By Lyrazel
September 19, 2005 07:41 AM | Link to this
I am sure Atheists Society on Katrina relief are there with donations. I have seen trucks from the Salvation Army and variety of churches loaded down with donations for assisting those in need. I have seen church groups bringing food into Second Harvest for distribution among them who need, not them who believe! Perhaps Diane should come down and chastize them who are left in ruin praying the FEMA phone lines will open…for mixing faith and government. Other world religions don’t have the same single-minded call to convert, as there is in Christian theology. What a load of malarky Diane!
By taboga
September 19, 2005 07:46 AM | Link to this
Another topic to bring out the babblings and ramblings of Separation of Church and State.
Can we take a guess at the percentage of people who were effected by Katrina - as to how many of those folks were Christians?
I would guess that the overwhelming vast majority of them are Christians. So, who is it, that might be offended or displeased with supposed religious messages intertwined with relief efforts?
Please give me something to eat and drink, along with warm and dry clothes. But don’t you dare mention Jesus - I’d rather stay here and die rather than having to endure that horror!
What a ridiculous topic. But no doubt the Christian-Bashers will be out in full force strutting their stuff…
By Brian Curtis
September 19, 2005 07:47 AM | Link to this
If a private religious group wants to “offer” aid but only on condition that you agree to be preached at… well, it’s despicable, but that’s their right. And I’m sure plenty of REAL Christians and REAL Christian groups are offering whatever aid they can with no strings attached. (Something the fundies may want to look into when they preen and strut about their “good works.”)
But as Sydney has already pointed out: it’s no business of government to get involved in religious matters in any way. Period.
By Gil Gibson
September 19, 2005 07:53 AM | Link to this
Of all the prejudiced, ignorant bull in Diane’s latest screed against Christianity, the largest chunk is “Other world religions don’t have the same single-minded call to convert, as there is in Christian theology.”
Ever hear of Islam, Diane? Their call is “convert or we’ll kill you.”
BTW, where are the pictures of trucks of relief supplies sent by the Council on American-Islamic Relations?
By taboga
September 19, 2005 07:58 AM | Link to this
For the pleasantness of it all, see the movie A Handmaid’s Tale.
As usual, a Liberal reconciles things by point to a: Movie.
By Dusty
September 19, 2005 07:58 AM | Link to this
Another loopy topic. The topic should be “Why let atheists say anything about the giving of aid during a disaster?” Well, the answer would be, because they have freedom of speech. BUT, religious people also have freedom of speech. Churches are not governmental agencies to be regulated, unless they “break the law”. Church volunteers can say what they want to say just like atheists. If that is called stalking and predatory (as Diane writes), then freedom of speech is doomed. After that failure, EVERYBODY will say only what is permitted.
By Bruce
September 19, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
Correct me if I am wrong, and I’m sure you will, but haven’t we heard so many complaints of how the Red Cross didn’t do this and FEMA was late and all the negitive sides to these two relief organizations? These two are the biggest relief organization in our country, if not the world. The Southern Baptist Convention is the third. How many negitive reports have we heard about the SBC? Were are the American Atheists in all this? How much relief have they provided to these people? It is so easy for those not doning anything that amounts to to much to critize those leading the way. If you aren’t going to do anything positive get out of the way and keep your mouth shut.
By Brian Curtis
September 19, 2005 08:06 AM | Link to this
Bruce: Thankfully, “keep your mouth shut” is not a suggestion that works on Americans. As Dusty pointed out, we have every right to say what we please about any topic under the sun… kinda the point of having a forum, don’t you think?
And Dusty’s right: Atheists and churches alike have the right to say what they want, when and where they want. Of course, churches also enjoy a special privilege (not a right, a privilege) of tax-exemption, and to qualify for it they have to stay out of politics. But that’s another topic.
If a church wants to sent aid, with or without preaching, that’s up to them. If they make the aid conditional on preaching, it’s disgusting and abusive… but it’s still their right. As long as government dollars aren’t involved in the preaching, everything’s fine.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 08:06 AM | Link to this
And I’m sure plenty of REAL Christians and REAL Christian groups are offering whatever aid they can with no strings attached. (Something the fundies may want to look into when they preen and strut about their “good works.�)
Nitwit,
I’m sure that ALL of them are offering aid with NO strings attached!
There hasn’t been one instance anywhere of any religious groups attaching any strings to anything in their assistance with relief for these folks!
This whole absurd topic was pulled from thin air - just so that little nitwits like you would have something to bash Christians with!
And as usual, you haven’t let them down.
By Randy
September 19, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
ONLY IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE A CHANCE TO GO TO HEAVEN!!!!
By Renee
September 19, 2005 08:30 AM | Link to this
How could anyone speculate on the amount of people down there that were Christians, to say that most of them are is ridiculous, who knows.
But if a group wants to preach while they render that aid it is definitely that right. If you don’t want help from them then don’t get it. Now if the government was preaching as they render aid that would be totally different.
By Renee
September 19, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this
I’m really disappointed with the topic this week. Seems like a no brainer to me.
The Christians groups may try to push their beliefs but they will help EVERYBODY. And help is the important thing.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this
This topic is totally ridiculous. Do the victims of disasters really care who they get help from? Drinkable water is drinkable water. If I were in a dire situation such as the folks in New Orleans, someone could hand me a jug of water and say “thank Allah” and I would take the water and say “Bless you”. We need to get rid of this subject and get something worth debating.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this
How could anyone speculate on the amount of people down there that were Christians, to say that most of them are is ridiculous, who knows.
Renee,
We can “speculate” because these folks are from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama.
Those three states are in the South. The overwhelming vast majority of people in the South are Christians.
Therefore, we can “speculate” that the vast majority of people effected by the disaster are: Christians.
See how easy that is? Now, if this disaster occurred in Mozambique we might not “speculate” the same thing.
By Renee
September 19, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this
Amen Jack!
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
Taboga…do you just play the devil’s advocate for the sake of having nothing better to do?
Last week, or week before last, you complained about people helping the people from Hurricane Katrina to make themselves feel good and give themselves a pat on the back, and now this morning you are saying people are doing it with no strings attached. Which one is it?
By taboga
September 19, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this
Scalia,
Then you missed my point last week. I was not talking at all about the people who were really down there helping folks. I was talking about all the do-gooders who aren’t actually doing anything, but rather out here on blogs and the like, railing on and on about how much they care about those folks.
There’s a BIG difference…
By Brian Curtis
September 19, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this
Scalia: You’re close… taboga is actually a brainless and cowardly troll. Since he can’t compete in an actual debate (having neither facts nor sense on his side), he just hangs around to snipe at people and show off his incompetence. That’s why I never respond to his bait; he’s just too damn stupid to be worth my time.
By Archie
September 19, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
Jack I agree with your 8:55 am post. I guess Diane had to write something in opposition to basically non-topic. I have a topic suggestion. Why don’t women watch the WNBA and why don’t women support women’s boxing in great numbers? These are suggestions…
By Chilao
September 19, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
Is this a serious topic? Wait, I asked that last week.
Part of what makes America great is the ability to attempt to share your faith, if you are so inclined. I think it is called Freedom of Speech.
However, I am unaware of any Christian aid groups that make proselytizing a matter of policy for any aid given. Sure, there may be Bible Studies available, etc, but certainly doubt it conditional for aid. There may be a few exceptions to this, but it would not be the norm. Christians are assisting based on their Christian principles. And doubt there are any saying “You dummies should have gotten out before having to go to the Superdome, morons”. Well, at least the ones freely giving aid.
At this point in our country’s history, we all know about Christianity so doubt anyone operating in a vacumn and actually need these aid groups to let them know about what gives with Christianity.
By Bobb
September 19, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
Diane has a bigger issue here. She claims that the President’s call for a national day of prayer is “…violating our First Amendment right to the separation of church and state”. The Dianes of the world won’t be happy till the First Ammendment is interpreted to mean that that no one - public offical or private citizen - can make any public relgious utterance lest it offend a non-beliver.
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
I don’t get it. So they offer these people prayer? Most people have been a situation where they have to pray, or say the grace. Reading the bible could be good, and give them peace of mine thinking why did this happen. The story of Job, for example, could be reassuring, and give them hope that better things are going to come.
But Archie, that is a good point about women and women sports. It could be because women feel that gymnastics and cheerleading are feminine, and the other sports are not. Tennis and soccer are the exceptions.
By Renee
September 19, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this
Personally, I love the WBNA and women’s boxing. Just like men sports if it’s the teams I want to see play I will watch or ANY fight with Leila Ali.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
My favorite women’s sports to watch are beach volleyball & figure skating.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
THIS TOPIC SUCKS! It’s a joke, a no-brainer, a worthless non-argument!
It can all be summed up by the following three statements:
By GirlWatcher
September 19, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
Don’t forget the gymnasts for another women’s sport.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
I’m just not that into sports at all… the only one I enjoy is baseball. Trying to get into football, but I just don’t understand it.
By Chilao
September 19, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this
I missed the day Bush designated as the formal ‘day of prayer’, what day is it supposed to be? Would not want to miss it. I may have prayed before Katrina hit, but know it would not have done any good, would have hit the Gulf Coast anyway. In fact I know many people who were praying it would not hit the USA, and we know how that worked out.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this
Aw, Brian, you hurt my feelings.
Well, I can “debate” and you just watch me:
The Religious Reich and Bush lied! How much longer are we going to take this Neo-Con crap! The Fundies want a Theocracy not a Democracy and they want to get into our bedrooms as well!
All the Neo-Cons care about is oil and Halliburton! And when are all you people going to wake up and realize that George Bush is the biggest threat to peace in the world! Bush and his Nazi conspirators are ruining our country and if it wasn’t for people like Cindy Sheehan standing up to this Religious Reich war-mongerer who stole two elections - our whole nation would be going to hell in a hand-basket!
I can too debate Brian - and my Daddy can beat-up your Daddy!
By Jack
September 19, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this
I like gymnastics but the gymnists are too young to look at the way I look at the other aforementioned athletes.
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this
This is a dumb topic… I don’t see too many Christian groups out there putting requirements on those who they help… and if they do then so be it… that is their right… I would not agree with it but if they want to then they can
Renee… Leila is a hottie!
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this
I like gymnastics… the guys aren’t too young to look at in that way! :)
By Renee
September 19, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
Yes she is!
By taboga
September 19, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
Tim,
Next week’s topic will be about “Peanut Butter and Jelly Sandwiches”.
No doubt you’ll find a way to bring your Gayness into it…
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this
Grape Jelly is purple and purple triangles are a gay symbol… GOOOOOO GAYS!!!!!!!!
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
I agree Leila is a hottie.
Women’s tennis is way more interesting than men’s tennis, maybe because of Serena and her badukaduke. And Anna Kornikova was hot when she played.
I have to admit that Agassi coming back and beating my lovely James Blake was historical.
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this
Jack was talking about checking out female athletes… why is it ok for him to bring in his straightness
By Jack
September 19, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
Don’t bite. He’ll be reeling you in.
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
Scalia… I think womens tennis is much more interesting to watch too… I think it may be because the points tend to last longer… Serena’s bandunkadunk doesn’t hurt either
By Tim
September 19, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this
ok… no more biting
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
Tim, not to mention all the opportunities in Peanut Butter LOL!
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
Peanut butter? Hahahaha!!! That’s hilarious.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this
Jelly is more fun to lick off.
By Renee
September 19, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
lol tim, justbeingme
By Grosserouter
September 19, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
Trust that peanut butter is just licked in the front?
By Dusty
September 19, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Well, we covered that sorry topic and it is only 11 o’clock on Monday morning. So off we go into the wild blue yonder.
Now, Archie, why should I watch women’s sports? I’ll be watching the Braves right through the day they win the World Series. I don’t watch cooking shows either. Do you?
Now, folks! This blog would be dull as dishwater without Taboga and you know it. How ever would you vent all your frustrations without him. Now, say something nice and let us see what happens. Maybe I will sign off ‘til next week and a good topic. I can dream, can’t I?
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Good monday everyone!!
This topic is useless and I’m not EVEN going to bother with an answer.
I love men’s sports I suppose because I love men. (mmm..baseball, tight pants, nice) I don’t care to watch violent women’s sports just because…well I just don’t care to. It doesn’t have anything to do with it being women, they can do what they want and some are pretty darn good and could go up against men’s teams anyday, I’m just very traditional and those aren’t “traditional” sports in my opinion, it just doesn’t interest me. I like figure skating though, it’s so creative and graceful (men or women).
PB&J IS THE BEST!! :) Strawberry jelly though.
By Bobby
September 19, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this
My Church, Golden Central Baptist Church in Golden, Ms, I live in Belmont just 3 miles from Golden. My church took a love offering and got $14000+ dollars. Another church near here Gave $3000. We sent a trailer load of most everything imaginable down there. There were no strings attached.We are also sponsoring a family of 8 from LA. A member has a real nice house she donated for their use as long as they need it. Donated items furnished the house competely. We didn’t ask if these people were Christians. We will invite them to church and if they respond fine. We have helped families before and they didn’t come to church. The person that said that the prayers said before Katrina struck didn’t help. How do you know that? It dropped from a 5 to a 4 before it struck. Could it have been because of the prayers? Could be.Wonder how many on this forum donated money or goods?
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this
Bobby - that’s great that your church (along with MANY MANY more) are so giving and helpful.
In response to “Wonder how many on this forum donated money or goods?”… Not all of us are as blessed. I struggle myself just to keep a roof overhead and food in the mouth. Fresh out of college I don’t have mom and dad helping me anymore. All I can offer is my prayers. I have given canned food for pets because I had some on hand after my cat died last week. I guess I didn’t appreciate the condensending tone of that question. A lot of people have given. The point of giving is to be selfless…when boasting about it and informing everyone, that’s not selfless..that’s selfISH. Asking others to “prove” their worth isn’t christianlike either..
By taboga
September 19, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this
Bobby,
Are you kidding? Most folks out here don’t have the time to donate anything - they’re too busy telling everyone else what they should do and how they should do it.
And then applauding themselves for all their compassion…
By KatrinaGiver
September 19, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
More people on this forum probably donated time, goods and money then need to justify it to anyone but themselves.
After all, if you have to brag about your charity, it is hardly charity.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
For those of you who take heart medicine, you might want to double your dose…
Does anyone know how much the Jewish organizations have contributed or helped in the Katrina aftermath…?
If your heart is racing, don’t blame me - I warned you.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this
Actually, Jesus said in St. Matthew (I think Chapter 6) to do your good deeds in secret and that God would reward you openly. Christians should NEVER brag about doing good deeds.
Bet we’d be a lot more humble if we kept records of our shortcomings the way we keep records of our “good deeds.”
By Archie
September 19, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
Thanks to the women and others for responding. I expected to get bashed but I didn’t. I asked about the WNBA because they have the finals going on right now and they are on espn2 and not the primary network and I asked about women’s boxing because I would like to see more of it but I don’t hear women pumping it up. I,too, like Laila Ali. This is a woman to woman forum so I am trying to understand with all the emphasis on equality why don’t women support those sports mentioned in greater numbers. Any response is good as I am just to understand some things. I have heard some women say they don’t like the quality of play in the WNBA but is quality more important than equality.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
Well if you’re going to give a running total of one religion, please - by all means - list the contributions to-date of all the major religions so that we can compare and contrast… and then critique those who didn’t give as much as the next.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this
I like the WNBA better than the NBA because it takes more skill to score without dunking the ball. They know how to pass and shoot from the outside.
By lozen
September 19, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this
Just Being Me, nothing else needs to be said about this topic after your post.
THIS TOPIC SUCKS! It’s a joke, a no-brainer, a worthless non-argument! It can all be summed up by the following three statements: Aid should be given without strings. If religious groups want to give aid with strings, it’s wrong, but it’s their right. Religious groups who give aid with strings shouldn’t use government funds to do so.
By Tony
September 19, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this
I shook my head in disbelief. This couldn’t be the right place. After all, I couldn’t possibly be welcome here. I had been given an invitation several times, by several different people, and had finally decided to see what this place was all about. But, this just couldn’t be the right place. Quickly, I glanced down at the invitation that clutched in my hand. I scanned past the words, “Come as you are. No jacket required,” and found the location.
Yes, I was at the right place. I peered through the window again and saw a room of people whose faces seemed to glow with joy. All were neatly dressed, adorned in fine garments and appeared strangely clean as they dined at this exquisite restaurant. Ashamed, I looked down at my own tattered and torn clothing, covered in stains. I was dirty, in fact, filthy.
A foul smell seemed to consume me and I couldn’t shake the grime that clung to my body. As I turned around to leave, the words from the invitation seemed to leap out at me, “Come as you are. No jacket required.”
I decided to give it a shot. Mustering up every bit of courage I could find, I opened the door to this restaurant and walked up to a man standing behind a podium.
“Your name, sir?” he asked me with a smile.
“Daniel F. Renken,” I mumbled without looking up. I thrust my hands deep into my pockets, hoping to conceal their stains.
He didn’t seem to notice the filth that I was covered in and he continued, “Very good, sir. A table is reserved in your name. Would you like to be seated?”
I couldn’t believe what I heard! A grin broke out on my face and I said, “Yes, of course! “He lead me to a table and, sure enough, there was a placard with my name written on it in a deep, dark red.
As I browsed over a menu, I saw many delightful items listed. There were things like, “peace,” “joy,” “blessings,” “confidence,” “assurance,” “hope,” “love,” “faith,” and “mercy.” I realized that this was no ordinary restaurant! I flipped the menu back to the front in order to see where I was at. “God’s Grace,” was the name of this place!
The man returned and said, “I recommend the ‘Special of the Day’.” With it, you are entitled to heaping portions of everything on this menu.”
You’ve got to be kidding! I thought to myself. You mean, I can have ALL of this!
“What is the ‘Special of the Day,’ I asked with excitement ringing in my voice.
“Salvation,” was his reply.
“I’ll take it,” I practically cried out. Then, as quickly as I made that statement, the joy left my body. A sick, painful ache jerked through my stomach and tears filled my eyes. Between my sobs I said, “Mister, look at me. I’m dirty and nasty. I’m unclean and unworthy of such things. I’d love to have all of this, but, I Just can’t afford it.”
Undaunted, the man smiled again. “Sir, your check has already been taken care of by that Gentleman over there,” he said pointing to the front of the room. “His Name is Jesus.”
Turning, I saw a man whose very presence seemed to light the room. He was almost too much to look at. I found myself walking towards Him and in shaking voice I whispered, “Sir, I’ll wash the dishes or sweep the floors or take out the trash. I’ll do anything I can do to repay you for all of this.”
He opened His arms and said with a smile, “Son, all of this is yours if you just come unto Me. Ask Me to clean you up and I will. Ask Me to take away the stains and it is done. Ask Me to allow you to feast at My table and you will eat. Remember, the table is reserved in your name. All you must do is accept this gift that I offer you.”
Astonished, I fell at His feet and said, “Please, Jesus. Please clean up my life. Please change me and seat me at Your table and give me this new life.” Immediately, I heard the words, “It is finished.” I looked down and white robes adorned my squeaky clean body. Something strange and wonderful had happened. I felt new, like a weight had been lifted, and I found myself seated at His table.
“The ‘Special of the Day’ has been served,” the Lord said to me. “Salvation is yours.”
We sat and talked for a great while and I so enjoyed the time that I spent with Him. He told me, me of all people, that He would like me to come back as often as I liked for another helping from God’s Grace. He made it clear that He wanted me to spend as much time with Him as possible.
As it drew near time for me to go back outside into the “real world,” He whispered to me softly, “And Daniel, I am with you always.” And then, He said something to me that I will never forget. He said, “My child, Do you see these empty tables throughout this room?”
“Yes, Lord. I see them. What do they mean?” I replied.
“These are reserved tables, but the individuals whose names are on each placards have not accepted their invitations to dine. Would you be so kind as to hand out these invitations to those who have not joined us yet?” Jesus asked.
“Of course,” I said with excitement as I picked up the invitations.
“Go ye therefore into all nations,” He said as I turned to leave.
I walked into God’s Grace dirty and hungry. Stained in sin. My righteousness as filthy rags. And Jesus cleaned me up. I walked out a brand new man… robed in white, His righteousness. And so, I’ll keep my promise to my Lord. I’ll go.
I’ll spread the Word.
I’ll share the Gospel …
I’ll hand out the invitations.
And I’ll start with you. Have you been to God’s Grace? There’s a table reserved in your name, and here’s your invitation … “Come as you are. No jacket required.”
By Joker
September 19, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Well, at least Tony’s post wasn’t part of an aid package.
By deedo
September 19, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Since we’re talking about women’s sports, which sport is most likely to have the best woman beating the best man? There are a few that are getting close.
By Sheila
September 19, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this
Gil Gibson:
You are an absolute moron. When you make statements like “Ever hear of Islam, Diane? Their call is “convert or we’ll kill you.â€? - You obviously have not done your homework. There are Islamic extremist groups that may have that philosophy, but there are Christian extremist groups that do the same. Need I remind you of Timothy McVeigh?!?!
Next time you make statements like that - do your homework!
By Craig
September 19, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
OK…I feel qualified to comment. I just returned from Louisiana where I went with a church based relief group. I’m not a preacher, an evangelist, a “thumper”, but just someone who wanted to help. We raised over $100,000 for Katrina relief and delivered a load of clothing, food, water, diapers, and other needed supplies and spent the rest of our time working in the disaster area. I don’t recall us asking anyone their religious affiliation when they wanted anything. We also had Bibles for those who asked for them. (Actually, they were one of the most requested items…) We were from a predominately white Methodist church and ended up helping Methodist-Americans, Baptist-Americans, African-Americans and just PLAIN OLD “I NEED SOME HELP” AMERICANS! If a foreign born purple striped devil worshipping homosexual had needed anything we had brought they would have gotten it also. Compassion and caring should be universal…..
By Joker
September 19, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? by Anonymous
Someone knocked at my door. I answered it to find a well-groomed, nicely dressed couple.
The man spoke first. “Hi! I’m John, and this is Mary.”
Mary said: “Hi! We’re here to invite you to come kiss Joshua’s a*.”
Me: “Pardon me? What are you talking about? Who’s Joshua, and why would I want to kiss his a*?”
John: “If you kiss Joshua’s a*, he’ll give you a million dollars; and if you don’t, he’ll kick the sh!t out of you.”
Me: “What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?”
John: “Joshua is a billionaire philanthropist. Joshua built this town. Joshua owns this town. He can do whatever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can’t until you kiss his a*.”
Me: “That doesn’t make any sense. Why…?”
Mary: “Who are you to question Joshua’s gift? Don’t you want a million dollars? Isn’t it worth a little kiss on the a*?”
Me: “Well maybe, if it’s legit, but…”
John: “Then come kiss Joshua’s a* with us.”
Me: “Do you kiss Joshua’s butt often?”
Mary: “Oh yes, all the time…”
Me: “And has he given you a million dollars?”
John: “Well no, you don’t actually get the money until you leave town.”
Me: “So why don’t you just leave town now?”
Mary: “You can’t leave until Joshua tells you to, or you don’t get the money, and he kicks the sh!t out of you.”
Me: “Do you know anyone who kissed Joshua’s butt, left town, and got the million dollars?”
John: “My mother kissed Joshua’s butt for years. She left town last year, and I’m sure she got the money.”
Me: “Haven’t you talked to her since then?”
John: “Of course not, Joshua doesn’t allow it.”
Me: “So what makes you think he’ll actually give you the money if you’ve never talked to anyone who got the money?”
Mary: “Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you’ll get a raise, maybe you’ll win a small lotto, maybe you’ll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street.”
Me: “What’s that got to do with Joshua?”
John: “Joshua has certain connections.’”
Me: “I’m sorry, but this sounds like some sort of freakish con game.”
John: “But it’s a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don’t kiss Joshua’s butt he’ll kick the sh!t of you.”
Me: “Maybe if I could see Joshua, talk to him, get the details straight from him…”
Mary: “No one sees Joshua, no one talks to Joshua,,, Directly.”
Me: “Then how do you kiss his butt?”
John: “Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his butt. Other times we kiss Karl’s butt, and he pbuttes it on.”
Me: “Who’s Karl?”
Mary: “A friend of ours. He’s Joshua’s representative. He is the one who taught us all about kissing Joshua’s butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times.”
Me: “And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Joshua, that Joshua wanted you to kiss his butt, and that Joshua would reward you?”
John: “Oh no! Karl’s got a letter Joshua sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here’s a copy; see for yourself.”
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on “From the desk of Karl” letterhead. It listed eleven items:
Me: “This appears to be written on Karl’s letterhead.”
Mary: “Joshua used his paper.”
Me: “I have a hunch that if we checked we’d find this is Karl’s handwriting.”
John: “Of course, Joshua dictated it.”
Me: “I thought you said no one gets to see Joshua?”
Mary: “Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people.”
Me: “I thought you said he was philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the sh!t out of people just because they’re different?”
Mary: “It’s what Joshua wants, and Joshua’s always right.”
Me: “How do you figure that?”
Mary: “Item 7 says ‘Everything Joshua says is right.’ That’s good enough for me!”
Me: “Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.”
John: “No way! Item 5 says ‘Joshua dictated this list himself.’ Besides, item 2 says ‘Use alcohol in moderation,’ Item 4 says ‘Eat right,’ and item 8 says ‘Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.’ Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too.”
Me: “But 9 says: ‘Don’t Drink,’ which doesn’t quite go with item 2. And 6 says ‘The moon is made of green cheese,’ which is just plain wrong.”
John: “There’s no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you’ve never been to the moon, so you can’t say for sure.”
Me: “Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock…”
Mary: “But they don’t know if the rock came from the Earth, or fromout of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese.”
Me: “I’m not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn’t make it cheese.”
John: “Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Joshua is always right!”
Me: “We do?”
Mary: “Of course we do, Item 5 says so.”
Me: “You’re saying Joshua’s always right because the list says so. The list is right because Joshua dictated it. And we know that Joshua dictated it because the list says so. That’s circular logic, no different than saying ‘Joshua’s right because he says he’s right.’”
John: “Now you’re getting it! It’s so rewarding to see someone come around to Joshua’s way of thinking.”
Me: “But…oh, never mind. What’s the deal with wieners?”
Mary blushed.
John: “Wieners, in buns. No condiments. It’s Joshua’s way. Anything else is wrong.”
Me: “What if I don’t have a bun?”
John: “No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.”
Me: “No relish? No Mustard?”
Mary looked positively stricken.
John (raising his voice): “There’s no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!”
Me: “So a big pile of sauerkraut — with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?”
Mary put her fingers in her ears: “I am not listening to this. La la, la la, la la la.”
John: “That’s disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that…”
Me: “It’s good! I eat it all the time.”
Mary fainted. John caught her.
John: “Well, if I’d known you were one of those I wouldn’t have wasted my time. When Joshua kicks the sh!t out of you I’ll be there, counting my money and laughing. … I’ll kiss Joshua’s butt for you, you … you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater!”
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
Name one Deedo.
By lozen
September 19, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
You don’t hear about atheists helping in disasters because we do it on an individual basis or as part of some other organization. There really isn’t a humanist, agnostic, or atheist church, no matter how much some like to promote the idea that those philosophies about life are religions.
By Argy
September 19, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
Since we’re talking about women’s sports, which sport is most likely to have the best woman beating the best man? There are a few that are getting close.
Well, bowling and billiards might be a couple to name. And of course many of the traditional women’s sports (ladies style gymnastics, synchronized swimming, etc).
And Tony, The dude should’ve bought peace for everyone instead of the single order of salvation. Or the ribs.
By Sheila
September 19, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this
Craig,
I could not have said it better! We need more people like you!
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
LOL Joker
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this
deedo - I think that if rules were combined to satisfy all, I think that basketball could easily be a close match between men and women. With the height difference I do think there would need to be some rules accordingly, like dunking as someone else mentioned earlier. I also think women could take men for a run in baseball, but they give us that wimpy big ball and underhanded pitching… =P
By Craig
September 19, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this
Joker….We’d have given you a wiener also. With or without condiments. No posterior kissing required. :)
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
Re: the topic: religion without strings - Solicitating religion in a snake kind of way
So I took my nephews to see Tony Hawk in Athens on Sunday. After the demo, one of them show me a booklet that says on the front: Are you a genius? Test your memory and see! …along with a image of einstien on the cover.
Well the contents were how to memorize the ten commandments, and all in a manner as if it was not religion it was refering to. Plus, the ending explain that you are far from a genius if you choose damnation instead of memorizing ten easy elements and following them.
All five kids, were respectfull and curious about christianity at an early age; but after years of that low brow “trick you into being religious” crap (in and out of church) - I have the job of explaining that all christians are not like that, although they argue back that these types of messages are EVERYWHERE! And they ARE correct - the demeaning tricks are everywhere.
It is the same reason they all stopped going to church and youth group (which IMO they shoud be called youth gropes - as much ill activity that goes on!).
So do not tell me that this perception of untrust towards religous groups is some adult athiest only adgenda - most of us that are sceptical of any action a religous group makes is founded on valid experiences, and ones could be considered attempts to coerse/trick us as kids, which is sick.
All this is coming FROM a christian - and one who is continually trying to undo the damage religion does to the christian faith.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
What about the bun?
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
You have to put a dry weiner in the bun.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
All this is coming FROM a christian - and one who is continually trying to undo the damage religion does to the christian faith.
Well, you go boy - take the bull by the horns!
By Jack
September 19, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Scalia. Several good responses to your post comes to mind and it could turn into a very interesting conversation but it may offend big brother so I’ll let it go at that.
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Well, you go boy - take the bull by the horns!
Did I not just say that I have? If you need me to explain what I wrote, just ask and I will - as I have each time.
I have enough patience to help you if you so wish.
By lozen
September 19, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
It is impossible for christianity, or islam to be religions without strings. The bottom line of both is that their god is the only true god. They are perfect examples of religious totalitarianism. It is a very important part of the beliefs of christianity that one must proselytize and “save souls” to be a good christian. (I don’t know about Islams and conversion). The Jews, god’s chosen people, escape that by being inclusive by birth. You are a jew if your mother is a jew. Of course, you can convert to Judaism, but there’s no proselytizing as with christianity. I just read a book about the time when christian monks came to Ireland and the people converted. The monks knew better ways to plant crops and grow food. The people up until then often starved to death because their crops failed. So the people gave up their druid gods and accepted the christian god of the monks. If you’re starving, just as you said, Jack, you’ll way thank you to Allah, Shiva, Zeus or whoever!
By Thoughts
September 19, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
Amazing how many religious conversions in the past have been essentially economic.
By lozen
September 19, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this
Joker, ROTFL at your post. But Joker, if I believe that I’ll get a million dollars when I leave town and I kiss Joshua’s butt and then there is no million, what have I lost? If you don’t believe and there is a million and you don’t kiss Joshua’s butt, you’ve lost your million dollars to get set up in another town!
By Jack
September 19, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Is the bun also dry?
By Netbanker
September 19, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
“foreign born purple striped devil worshipping homosexual” OK…that’s just wrong. Foreign born or not a homosexual who worships the devil would know to wear black and never purple stripes.
By Deedo
September 19, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Probably where women are coming the closest to competing with men is in track and field and marathon running. The world record for the womens maration is now about 2hrs:15min which comes to around 5:10 per mile, and would beat all but three current male United States marathon runners( the men’s world record is around 2:04/4:45 per mile). The womens’ record is expected to drop to 2:10 by 2020 whereas the men’s record will only go down a minute or two more. Can women catch up? Maybe not to the records but on a good day for Paula Radcliffe (female record holder) and a bad day for whatever leading male Kenyan is entered, we could see a woman winning a major marathon such as New York.
I know nobody really cares but it’s interesting beer drinking conversation.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
Moose,
It was an exclamation not a suggestion. If you’re going to save Christianity - you need to learn the difference.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
Pretty much everything is interesting when drinking beer. :)
By joe
September 19, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this
This blog is for talking about religion buddy, so save it on the sports stuff! Besides we can’t drink beer at work!
By Netbanker
September 19, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
Actually Golf would probably be closer than running. Between Ms. Sorenson and…shoot, I just blanked on the 14 y.o. Asian girl’s name…what’s-her-name they’re getting close to the men’s game. Golf is more about form than pure strength or endurance.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
Deedo - OOhh.. I was thinking you meant more of the traditional “male” sports, hockey, football, baseball, basketball, etc. I’ve always thought of field and track as unisex because I ran in HS against boys so it didn’t occur to me to seperate it. - sorry, misunderstood earlier. :)
By RF
September 19, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
Net—couldn’t he wear a little purple for accent? I mean, he worships the devil, but does he HAVE to be so boringly monochromatic? You guys are a hoot today!
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
LOL Netbanker
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
Hey it’s 5 o’clock somewhere! I’ll drink to that! :)
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
Tab, I know the difference. Watch/listen and learn:
The point (obviously need clarification again? Just ask, it is easier on both of us) is that you made the same exclamation that I made.
Therefore your comment is redundant - again. You infuse either reduntant crap in someones post to start bs, or add text to their point - see below if I lost you again.
Can you point me to where I said I was out to SAVE christianity? Seeing as you are adding a point as if it was a given; but the fact is you are adding to/altering what I said.
Why would you add such a stupid statement to my post one asks?
BC that way you have a point to ridicule; yet it was your addition - not mine. So, go make fun of yourself.
M’kay? (or is still more you need assistance with? I have the time to kick it around a little longer)
By Jack
September 19, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
Hey Net, Annika couldn’t make the cut when she tried at the Colonial. Michelle Wie can drive far but it will be a long time before they can compete with the men. Fun to watch though, especially when they pick up the ball.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
I hear Fatmoose being reeled in. Go Tab. (the fishing was better when everyone thought you were stupid wasn’t it?)
By Irritated
September 19, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
Tony, AAAHHHH How sweet…..but what does that have to do with anything? Everybody who believes in GOD does not believe in Jesus. So to prove the point that is being made, SOME Christians do have a hard time with providing assistance without trying to convert or “save” someone.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Moose,
You do a terrible job at pretending to be intelligent. AND it’s boring.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this
Irritated - that’s because it’s commanded of christians to spread His word. Not all christians live that way. I don’t, I chose to witness intravertaly (sp?), not extrovertly. That’s what missionaries do, they are out to spread His gospel and to teach the bible. When a christian group sees the opportunity to witness to someone or to share the bible they will, but it’s not usually out of selfishness. (stress of the word usually). Meaning a lot (probably most) christian charities give without strings but just like everything else, there are bad apples.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
Irritated - your right though….SOME do have a hard time with providing assistance without trying to convert or “saveâ€? someone.
I was actually agreeing with you just never stated it. :)
By Jack
September 19, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
God would frown upon those who would offer help with conditions. No doubt.
By Scalia
September 19, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
Jack, that’s not as much fun as watching Andy Roddick dry his face and seeing just enough of his treasure trail, getting to see him in his sweaty white shorts, or watching James Blake bend over.
By mit
September 19, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
so i just read the AJC article about the faith based initiative being lobbied since katrina.
Are these same people from the church wanting to give islamic mosques funding too? I mean, if the govt. is going to give christian churches money to feed the hungry are they going to include all the other religions that help communities also? They should get money too.
And where is all this money coming from? I personally don’t want my tax dollars going to a church or mosque, do ya’ll?
By Jack
September 19, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this
Scalia. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! :) (not sure what treasure trail is, sounds dirty) hehe
By Tim
September 19, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
it’s a happy trail… don’t think that is something that would float your boat
By taboga
September 19, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
OK.
So, what if an organization of Rock Artists offered relief and tried to persuade folks to listen to rock music?
And if General Motors were providing aid and relief and were passing out their automobile brochures?
Coca-Cola…?
…What difference does it make if religious groups make a pitch?
I mean, it’s not like they’re Al Qaeda and trying to recruit suicide murderers!
If they try to convert someone, well, couldn’t it be as simple as: Yes, no, maybe, or thanks but no thanks - and move right along?
They don’t have leprosy or cooties and they’re not the bogey-man where you have to run and hide under the covers because they invite you to church!
Goodness gracious!
By Craig
September 19, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this
Irritated…perhaps it is because many who believe in Jesus have forgotten what Jesus was supposed to have believed in Himself. (Just as have fundamentalists of many stripes, such as a small minority of Muslims, have likewise forgotten the tenets of their faith.) IMHO, any self-professed Christian who would condition aid, kindness, comfort, food etc on the religious beliefs of the recipient is in some dire need of remedial Sunday school. Good people, and evil, can be found within any people, nation, or religion. Those (good or bad) that choose may attend a church, synagogue, mosque, or whatever but they are simply occupying space in a building. The test of any faith is how the faithful live their lives when no one is looking.
To get back onto the real subject of this blog. Aid delivered by religious groups should be acceptable PROVIDED aid is not conditional upon any “test” of the recipient other than need. Other than the military and Red Cross, the best efforts in the disaster area I witnessed were primarily from religious groups (particularly the Salvation Army, Operation Blessing, and the Baptist Church).
And regarding my earlier comment, the purple stripes were intended to be the color OF the devil worshipping homosexual in question. Their clothing I leave to the collective imagination of the group….
By Jack
September 19, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
Thanks Tim. I’ll have to trust you on that one!
Tab. Amen.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
mmmmm - happy trails. Ya’ll have sent my mind straight to the gutter!
Mit - I would have to admit, I could see that being more productive than a lot of things that my tax dollars are going for, but excluding any one faith would not be supported by me.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
I thought the devil was “Bi”. Isn’t his motto, “If it feels good, do it.”?
By Tim
September 19, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
np Jack
Scalia… I would take Rafael Nadal… now that’s a cutie
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
to continue from this “but excluding any one faith would not be supported by me.”
which is where the problem lies so I would prefer NO tax dollars going towards it. I didn’t quite finish my thought.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
CRAIG - No homosexual I know would be caught dead in purple striped skin.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
Wasn’t that a Roy Rogers song?
By Craig
September 19, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
BTW….to tie a couple of the thoughts in this thread together. (Aid by corporations like Coke and beer.) A good bit of the water being passed out in the disaster areas is canned by Anheuser-Busch (in Cartersville, GA) and clearly labelled as disaster aid with their logo on it. This could be the only time that Baptists are handing out free Anheuser-Busch products……
By sterling
September 19, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
How do you know which denomination is teaching the right things? Are you Lutheran, Episcopalian, Unitarian, Universalist, Holiness, Mormon, Presbyterian, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Nondenominational, AME? How do you know your church really preaches the true gospel? What’s the difference between what baptists believe and what methodists believe? Each of these groups believes they are right and all the others are wrong. How can anybody know which is truly right?
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Jack - Everybody knows the devil is bi. But, that doesn’t mean he won’t let purple-striped skinned homosexuals worship him.
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
Nice reply Tab.
Jack,
Happy with the reel in results? Seems tab could not even muster up the normal mean sarcasm - seeing as that would further prove what I posed to him.
Easy pickings.
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
BB,
I mean, thats alot of money. How much does a single church want? then multiply by what? 100,000+
I just don’t see a logical solution. If the money was given to the heads of the denominations how would that trickle down look like? which churches get more funding than another? by # of attendants? all the money would go to the megachurches and leave the little churches with no money.
and then you have the other religions too. its all just too much crap to deal with i think. I mean we don’t have the money now for post-katrina and now the churches want money b/c they went to help?
the churches are basically saying, bush dropped the ball and we recovered the fumble, so its time to give us some money. I think TD Jakes has more money from forced tithe than the federal govt has right now. Look at the dude’s house. he’s a preacher living like a movie star, come on. He better not get a cent in tax dollars.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this
OK….I’m sorry…I confess. I couldn’t find any foreign born striped homosexual devil worshippers to verify the exact color of their stripes. And I personally think that the devil would be many different things to many different people (on the bi vs straight vs hetero question). My personal devil would more closely resemble Elizabeth Hurley in Bedazzled with keys to a Ferrari in one hand and a Bass Ale in the other. Talk about temptation….
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this
How can you tell the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist in a liquor store?
The Catholic will say hello.
By taboga
September 19, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
Yep, let’s make damn sure that those intrusive Christians don’t get a blasted dime of our “tax money”!
We’ll shell it out by the millions and billions to any charlatan that comes along, but mention a Christian group that might actually do something worthwhile with it - and everybody races to see who can get on their soapbox first!
And for the love of pete - why on earth would we be giving money to Muslims, Hindus and Eskimos to help provide relief for people in the DEEP SOUTH?
And once we found all TEN of those folks down here…
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
Sterling, that’s an easy one. I know my churches preaches the true gospel because I’m Apostolic and all the others are wrong. :-)
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
sterling - that’s the thing, no one knows. I’m thinking your questions were more rhetorical and not looking for a specific answer from any one person but I was raised methodist and am now baptist. Methodist and Baptist have few differences.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
building bridges….Don’t know about that Baptist vs. Methodist comment. Your pastor would probably have a slight problem with the Bass Ale mentioned above. But I guess someone has to serve as a bad example for the rest of the flock….
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this
taboga, your rantings and ravings make no sense. who is this charlatan you talk of?
I don’t think the faith-based initiative is just for the south. and are you really saying eskimos are a religious group? If you are trying to be funny it would work alot better if you said something funny instead of something stupid.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
Jack - LOL yup! Southern Baptist church member here and you are SO right! For the longest time I was afraid of running into someone. It took a while to get over that.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
Creflo runs credit checks and demands to see w-2 forms for those in his flock wishing to join in the choir or other activities in his church. He wants the w-2s to make sure you are tithing enough.
By Naimah
September 19, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
Since this forum is already off topic I’ll jump right in…..sterling - that’s the thing, no one knows. I’m thinking your questions were more rhetorical and not looking for a specific answer from any one person but I was raised methodist and am now baptist. Methodist and Baptist have few differences. buildingbridges how can you say that no one knows the truth? Are you believing in something for the sake of saying you believe or do you know that its correct. I personally wouldnt want anyone handing me pamphlets or tyring to convert me to something that they personally did not believe was right, Christian, Jew, or Atheist!
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
As far as aid goes, any funds should be distributed on a per-diem or per meal basis going to ANY group who can prove their provision of support during the crisis. Same reimbursement schedule for all groups. The feds simply do not have the infrastructure in place to provide the housing and food. The churches already have facilities and soup kitchens in place. However, I personally think most churches will provide this because they see this as a part of their mission and will do so without reimbursement. And for those who are atheist, forget the churches and Salvation Army, the Red Cross would love your assistance. Donate, or even better, volunteer your time. This rebuilding will take a long time. All Americans should be standing together helping out.
By lozen
September 19, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
BuildingBridges, in the film “The River Runs Through It” one of the characters says, “my mother was methodist and my father was baptist and my mother says they’re about the same except most methodists can read.”
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
jack,
I thought that he asked for the w-2 before you could become a member of the church. I know some people who know people (lol) who go to a megachurch. whose I can’t remember but they had to show their w-2 to be a member of the church. Creflo, eddie long, td jakes. all are high rollers but I don’t think any are actually holy rollers.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this
Craig - what Bass Ale comment?
By Jokeer
September 19, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
seeing as we are on to religious jokes:
Q: If you are having a party, and have Southern Baptist friends to invite, why should you make sure you invite two or more?
A: If you invite one, he/she will drink all of your beer. If you invite two, they won’t drink any at all.
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
Like tab says:
Who in the SOUTH, with their egos and separatist ideals, would take charity from a muslim even if they were on their death bed.
He is trying to make the point that christians only help other christians? Or does it cross lines? And if the charity does cross lines, whats you reasoning (besides ego/ignorance) for other faiths (including eskimos??!?! Ha!) to get money to help others?
More bile from tab.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
You got that right Mit!
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
MIT - I beg your pardon but, TD Jakes receives quite a bit of money from his speaking engagements, salary, BOOK revenues, CD recordings, theatre productions and screenplays.
And, I’m willing to bet he gives a lot more to the community than he gets from church tithes.
There are certainly some folks out there that lack integrity, but just because a pastor lives nicely doesn’t mean he’s stealing or “taking” tithes.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this
And don’t forget: Wherever there are four Episcopalians gathered in the Lord’s name, there will be a fifth. (Yes, I was raised Episcopalian so I can say this and laugh….)
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this
Naimah - No, I believe what I believe based on the bible and what I feel is right. However, I can’t say that catholics are wrong or methodists or whatever. There are a million different ways to interpret the bible. I think all of the protestant denominations are headed in the same direction it’s just different roads. As far as non-protestant, I don’t know. I don’t feel that it’s right but who am I to judge? And who am I to say that what I believe or what someone else believes is right or wrong?
Lozen - That’s great! :)
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
JACK - You should check stuff like that out before spreading it. That’s a potentially harmful untruth.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
JBM. I’ll take that bet.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
Buildingbridges…My earlier comment was my personal devil consisting of Elizabeth Hurley holding a Bass Ale and Ferrari keys. Defintely NOT on the approved list for Baptist pastors. Actually…not sure on anyone’s approved list. Stinking morality getting in the way again…..
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
but I know some stories from those churches.
true story: A elder lady came up on stage (what ever you call it) and asked the preacher for help with paying her mortgage. She still had half the money but had to spend the other half for food and utilities. The preacher actually told her, “Give me your half of the mortgage and God will pay it for you.” She gave him her money but God forgot to pay her mortgage and she foreclosed.
from channel 5: i like watching that for some reason, well here is one.
A preacher, looked more like a pimp but hey, said if you need evidence of God and Jesus he has it. He said, “do you know why lasers are red? Lasers are concentrated light. This light is concentrated throught this laser and it comes out red because it is the blood of jesus. Concentrated light shows us that jesus is real because there is his blood. Concentrated through light.”
funniest thing I have ever heard. the audience didn’t fall for that one either.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this
The truth hurts JBM. I have my sources.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this
Craig - lol gotcha, I must have missed that. Well…I suppose a sense of humor is OK to have. But you might want to repent for saying that. ;-) Just teasing
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
My 2 cents on the Catholic vs Methodist vs Baptist vs Episcopalian vs etc. I suspect that all of us have a little bit of the truth and a lot where we are mistaken. I also suspect that God will forgive us (if we ask) and love us all anyway. I just don’t see God saying, “Welcome, by the way, I’m a Baptist and we’ve got to talk about that beer….” At least I hope that’s the case and that God has a sense of humor, else I am in some really serious trouble.
By sterling
September 19, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this
No, I really mean how can we know what the real truth is? I grew up Baptist but I go to Catholic school and I really like some things about the Catholic church. The Baptist church is kind of boring - no candles, no incense, no confession and no pretty statues of saints. Baptists don’t have ritual and don’t take eucharist (which Jesus began at the last supper so it seems that might be something important) and most of the Baptist preachers I’ve heard aren’t even very smart; they just stand up there and scream “Hell” at the congregation and talk about maybe ten stories from the Bible over and over. I’m thinking about becoming Catholic because it is the original church founded on Peter. Jesus said Peter was the rock and he was founding his church on him. The Catholic church seems to me to follow the Bible teachings more closely than the Baptist Church.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this
Sterling….you just had to do it….put on your flame resistant underwear. I suspect that “it” is about to hit the fan now….
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
JBM,
I don’t care how TD jakes makes his money but when he is in DC trying get ours its wrong. His bank account is big enough for whatever he needs. He wants a megachurch with 30,000 members times 10%, why does he need federal money. Whining about, us churches only get 10% while the federal govt. gets 30%. tough, raise your members’ tithe if you want a new bentley. He has enough money to get everyone in dallas, ga out of debt. I mean, how many homeless people are in dallas, ga compared to atlanta, ga? TD Jakes doesn’t need our money for church programs or he wouldn’t have 30,000 members.
By Scott
September 19, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Good grief…this might be the stupidest topic I have ever seen on hear. This is just ridiculous. I do not believe for one second that “religious groups” are making hteir aid to the victims conditional. What a load of manure. Diane, while usually well spoken, seriously needs to quit taking whatever she was on when she wrote this one. Clearly, it’s rotting her brain.
“Excuse me ma’am…um, I know you want this water and food…but have you accepted Jesus? Cuz if you haven’t, I can’t let you have it.”
How absurd is that??? I can’t believe the AJC opinion editor didn’t laugh this crap right out of his/her office
By Jack
September 19, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
I’m Catholic and I think the baptists are ahead of us in terms of studying the bible. The Baptists spend a lot more time on Sunday talking about it.
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
JACK - Off the top of my head, I can think of 9 people that I know that have joined that church since I moved here in 2001. Not one of them has ever been asked to show a paystub, W-2, or any of the other rumors that have been put out. In fact, they haven’t even been asked to disclose their wages.
I don’t go to that church, and I’m not a fan of Creflo and I’m especially annoyed by his wife. But, it is totally unfair to repeat something that isn’t proven true.
Whoever told you that lied.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this
Yeah Mit - those are some examples of how bad people can be. That poor lady, how horrible!! That makes me angry thinking about it! I do believe the lord can provide, but not if you give the preacher your money.
Example - my dad ventured out on his and started his own business after retiring so money is a little tight for he and my mom (they are both retired and he is starting this business). They decided to sell their home and buy my grandmothers house to renovate. They were going to take out a loan for the $3500 downpayemnt on the house but my parents being very religious people prayed hard about it and asked their sunday school group to help pray about the matter. the next week (a couple days before they were going to go to the bank) my dad recieved 2 checks from new clients. One for $1200 and the other for $2300.
Believe what you will, that’s fine, but I definitely believe that prayer can be very powerful.
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this
sterling,
good luck with the catholic church. I just hope you don’t have any sons.
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
just a joke there sterling. a bad one but still a joke
By Craig
September 19, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
Just kidding Sterling…I don’t think we have the ability to see and understand enough of God to answer those questions. Nor do I personally think that HE would care. I think that our denominations are our invention, not His. I think that He must find our certainty on some of these subjects to be entertaining. To me, God listens to all of us. Best analogy I ever heard was picture choirs of small children singing the same Christmas carol in different languages. All are beautiful. I don’t think that God “hears” only one denomination any more than he listens only to English. I guess that’s why it’s called “faith”. If it were scientific “knowing” it would be too easy….
By lozen
September 19, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
Very interesting book, “The Laughing Jesus” which asks, what if the Bible was created by Taliban-type fundamentalists to justify religious violence? They believe the original christianity was Gnosticism, which meant “seeking wisdom,” and was manipulated to fit the purposes of those in power.
By FatMoose
September 19, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
Bridges,
Purely FYI - It is illegal to use a loan for your downpayment on a house; So, they were blessed in more ways than one!
By mit
September 19, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
BB,
did your dad’s new clients go to the same church? have to ask.
By Renee
September 19, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
yeah all of those mega church preachers are out for themselves and themselves only…in my humble opinion. I went to one a while ago. Pastor Wiley Jackson said if you only have $5 in your pocket and you need to choose between buying your baby diapers and tithing to the church, you choose to tithe because the Lord will take care of the rest. I never went back.
By buildingbridges
September 19, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Sterling - I don’t know. You need to do what you feel is best for you. I don’t have a problem with the catholic faith at all. I personally don’t believe that I need to go through someone to speak to God, there isn’t anywhere in the bible that indicates that we need to speak through a preacher to speak to Him.
As far as baptists not having rituals? We also take communion, we have baptisms, the lords prayer, many things.
Incense makes me sick so I’m glad about that. Yes we have candles.
You must also be very limited to the number of preachers you have heard because I’ve only been subjected to a small number that fit that description. Mine now is excellent and of the 3 years I’ve gone there I have yet to have heard the same story twice.
By sterling
September 19, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
mit, why? I really don’t understand about having sons.
By Jack
September 19, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
JBM. My comment was mainly about Creflo. TD ain’t exactly hurting either. Prayer is quite powerful too. Doesn’t always work but it can’t if you don’t try.
By mit
September 19, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this
fatmoose,
your wrong. I got a loan for my down payment.
and most people take out 2 mortgages. one for the down payment and one for the house. Man, it must be nice to live in virginia highlands.
that’s how they do it folks if anyone is wondering how on earth people afford these home prices.
By Scott
September 19, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this
Lozen Well, I guess there is a book for every world view
By Just Being Me
September 19, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this
MIT - I really can’t offer an educated response to that because I am not aware of Jakes requesting gov’t money, and I don’t know what he wants it for.
What I can say is that my profession is in Administration & Operations of faith-based orgs, and many of my clients (churches included) have sought funding for valid projects.
By Craig
September 19, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this
Getting serious here…back to jokes:
A priest, a Baptist preacher and a rabbi were friends. They would get together two or three times a week for coffee and to talk shop. One day, someone made the comment that preaching to people isn’t really that hard. A real challenge would be to preach to a bear. One thing led to another, and they decided to do a seven-day experiment. They would each go into the woods, find a bear, and preach to it.
A week later, they’re all together to discuss the experience. Father O’Flannery, who has his arm in a sling, is on crutches, and has various bandages, goes first. “Well,” he says, in a fine Irish brogue, ‘Ey wint oot into th’ woods to find me a bear. Oond when Ey fund him Ey began to read to him from the Baltimorre Catechism. Well, that bear wanted naught to do with’ me and begun to slap me aboot. So I quick grabbed me holy water and, THE SAINTS BE PRAISED, he became as gentle as a lamb. The bishop is cooming oot next wik to give him fierst communion und confierrmation.”
Reverend Billy Bob spoke next. He was in a wheelchair, with an arm and both legs in casts. In his best fire and brimstone oratory he proclaimed, “WELL, brothers, you KNOW that we don’t sprinkle…WE DUNK! I went out and I FOUND me a bar. And then I begun to read to him from God’s HOOOOLY WORD! But that bar wanted nothing to do with me. I say NOTHING to do with the LORD’S WORD! So I took HOOOLD of him and we began to rassle. We rassled down one hill, UP another and DOWN another until we come to a crick. So I quick DUNKD him and BAPTIZED his savage soul. An’ jus like you said, he was gentle as a lamb. We spent the rest of the week in fellowship, feasting on God’s HOOOOLY WORD.”
They both look down at the rabbi, who is lying in a hospital bed. He’s in a body cast and traction, with IV’s and monitors running in and out of him. The rabbi looks up and says, “Oy! Preaching to the bear was easy, but he got a bit touchy about the circumcision.”
By Renee
September 20, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
Ok, what’s the subject today?
By Brian Curtis
September 20, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this
I’m fine sticking with jokes.
One Saturday, a minister was complaining to his friend, “This society’s really on the decline. Someone actually stole my bike this week.�
His friend suggested, “Try preaching about the Ten Commandments tomorrow. A little ‘thou shalt not steal’ should work on the thief’s conscience, and maybe you’ll get your bike back.�
The minister agreed, and called his friend Sunday evening to report his success.
The friend said, “Wow-�you really got your bike back? The thief confessed?�
The minister answered, “No. When I got to ‘thou shalt not commit adultery,’ I remembered where I left it.�
By Bruce
September 20, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
Did anyone else hear that claims are being made the one of the holes in the levee in New Orleans was intentionally blown so it would be sure to flood the poor black section on the city?
By Renee
September 20, 2005 08:48 AM | Link to this
that’s funny Brian
By Renee
September 20, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this
No, I heard on CNN that some people are saying a barge came loose from it’s tie down and hit the levee.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this
mit-
*fatmoose,
your wrong. I got a loan for my down payment.
and most people take out 2 mortgages. one for the down payment and one for the house.*
You can take a second mortgage on 20% of the value; but you CANNOT use a loan - personal or bank provided. If parents or someone provides you withthe money, you need to get documentation that it is a gift.
If you took a loan (not a 20% 2nd mort) and used it for your downpayment mit, do not advertise it; your mortgaged will be in default - leading to serious consiquences.
Do not believe me? My GF is a mort broker, and has been in the business for 10 years. Look it up if you need, but I am not incorrect.
By Jack
September 20, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this
FatMoose. Folks have been borrowing for the downpayment on real estate forever. Yes. It is not legal,but most often the lender looks the other way. That is why there are so many foreclosures.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
Great jokes! Love the one with the priest rabbi and preacher.
Mit - no, none of his clients go to their church (clients are up here in atlanta and parents are in south GA). I dont’ really think my parents disclosed the full details when asking for their SS prayers.
FatMoose - I don’t know who is right about the loans, but I was actually wrong about what my parents were doing. I asked dad last night and they weren’t going for a loan they were going to move around some things and take money out of one of his bonds or investments that was a low fee for early withdrawal.
By Brian Curtis
September 20, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
Another religious joke:
Three men at an interfaith conference—a Christian, a Moslem, and a Jew—were discussing the turning points in their lives that truly reinforced their fath.
The Christian said, “Once, I was flying back from vacation when a storm struck. There was terrible wind, driving rain, no visibility… I thought we were doomed for sure. So I prayed to Jesus, and suddenly—for a thousand feet in all directions—there was stillness and clear skies. We were able to land safely, and I devoted my life to God ever since.”
The Moslem said, “Something similar happened to me. I was driving through the desert once when a sandstorm struck. I was sure I’d be buried alive and no one would ever find me. So I prayed to Allah, and like a miracle, the storm vanished. For a thousand feet in every direction, there was dead calm, and I was able to find shelter. Allah saved my life.”
The Jew eagerly agreed. “You know, I had a similar experience. I was walking home on the Sabbath one day when I spotted a torn bag full of money in a vacant lot. Now, I knew that touching it would violate our law about handling money on the Sabbath, so I prayed to Yahweh to give me guidance. And suddenly, for a thousand feet in every direction, it was Tuesday.”
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this
Bridges,
I was just providing info; not trying to pick.
There are a lot of people who end up in a bind bc they do not know, or circumvent the law purposely.
Jack - There are a lot of crooked Brokers out there, and many will let you do all sorts of things - that justifies nothing; and as you state - it ends up burning most people. Most brokers are only concerned with closing a deal and getting their 1.5-2.5 points on the back end.
By Jack
September 20, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this
Yes FatMoose. There should be a special Hell for predatory lenders.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
FatMoose - Yeah I know. :) I didn’t take it personally but after you said that I was curious so I had to asked them about it. I had thought they were going for a loan but it wasn’t. That wasn’t the point of the story though so it’s no big deal. :)
How is the moose man doing?
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
RENEE - I understand that giving in church is a very sensitive subject, and as such, we approach it very carefully at my church. It becomes even more sensitive when you’re dealing with visitors or “new” Christians who may believe that you are giving your money “to the preacher.”
Wiley Jackson (who, by the way, does not pastor a Mega Church), was simply teaching what the Bible teaches: that your tithe is the first thing you should pay. Tithing takes faith, faith to believe that if you pay it, God will supply all your needs according to his riches in glory. I am a witness. I have tithed my last, more times than I care to count. Because God is faithful to keep His promises, I have never gone hungry, homeless, or cold. I haven’t been without electricity or water - heck, I haven’t even been without cable!
I won’t get into a whole discussion about tithing, I just wanted to throw in there that Wiley Jackson was simply teaching what he believes the Bible says.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
Bridges,
Mr.Moose’s balance has been bad since Sunday. It is getting difficult for him to move around, but he still joins me on the bed - talking and purring. So, it is hard for me to tell at what point I should call the vet to come out - he doesnt seem to be in pain; but is uncomfortable.
Got some good video of him talking to me and hanging out. Should make the post-trauma a little easier.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
I’m glad you’ve got some good videos of him. The memories will always be good! As long as he’s not in pain..and he’ll let you know. I know that sounds stupid, but the two of mine that I have had to make that decision for, they let me know when it was time. Sabrina started losing her balance too. That went on for a couple of weeks though and it wasn’t bad, just a little unstable, still talking and sleeping with me. It was when she couldn’t even walk and lost her ability to control her bowel movements and started moaning every time she moved, that’s when it was time. That all happened really fast, within an 8-10 hour period.
Just listen to him, he’ll let you know. I’m so sorry your going through this. :-(
By Renee
September 20, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Wiley is not a megachurch yet, but he’s not far behind. God said don’t be a fool either (or so they say). If I have $5 and it comes between the church and diapers for my baby I choose diapers. I’m sure God would understand. I couldn’t see praying to him for diapers and he’s like “fool, you had the money”. That’s my belief.
Also, I’ve attended Creflo Dollar’s church (the name says enough) and he has assigned seating in his church. Go figure. When he’s talking he has his ushers block the doorways (to discourage people from leaving while he’s speaking). Not all the time, but a good deal of the time the money does go to the pastor. When I went to World Changers with Wiley Jackson it was before he got married etc. He was constantly upgrading his car, his homes, lavish vacations etc. Seems like the Lord was only blessing him. Then they had me go to a class to learn to gain the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. A class. It seems like if God wants me or anyone to speak in tongues we dont need to go to class to do so. Wiley is one of the main reasons that I have my spirituality minus the religion.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Renee - I’m sorry your experiences have been bad. I enjoyed world changers but different experiences leave different tastes in everyone’s mouths.
I don’t tithe. I do believe that it is one of God’s commands but I don’t do it, not out of refusal, just because I don’t think about it and I’m currently not an active member of a church. I know that if I tithed and I was short on money He would provide but I believe He would even though I don’t thithe. I still find a way to make ends meet.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this
Ok this could start a lively conversation. Did anyone else see where the mayor of N.O. and many residents are now telling Bush to leave them alone now that he strongly urges for N.O. to not be reopened due to the fact that it’s still not safe and the levees are not strong enough yet to substain a normal storm much less another huricane (which could be heading that way again)?
Some saying ‘this is our city, leave us alone’ (paraphrased). So which is it? Want help or not??
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
Bridges,
Thanks for the concern. I appreciate the support and info.
By Jack
September 20, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this
FatMoose. I found one good way to deal with the loss of a pet is to tell yourself that you provided that pet with a good life. A life we can all be envious of. When you finally go, they will be waiting for you in the big playground in the sky.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this
RENEE - I’m sorry you had those experiences with Gospel Tabernacle (Jackson) and World Changers (Dollar). I’ve never been a member, or visited either of them frequently enough to develop any opinions one way or the other. I have two close friends who work at Gospel Tab (and another friend who used to work there), and I know a bunch of people at World Changers. I prefer small churches… and, I’m not crazy about the non-denom thing.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this
Jack,
I usually laugh at the notion that my dad, who passed a few years ago (and although liked animals - did not like having to care for them), is hanging out with all these animals and having to take care of them until my mom or I show up to assist.
Ferrets on his head, dogs sniffing his crotch, birds on shoulders, ponies a prancing, etc… He’s gonna look at us and say “finally! Some help in giving these guys some attention! I though this death thing was supposed to be a break!”
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this
Jack - absolutetly! You provided them with a good life and in return they provided unconditional love and loyalty. I have several that will be at the bridge waiting for me!
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
BB - No, I didn’t see that, but I’ll look out for it. I did see Nagin on the Today show this morning… he didn’t say anything like that then.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this
Will I still be allergic to Rabbits when I get there?
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this
JBM - that’s good he didn’t say that on the show this morning. I’ll see if I can find the article that I read it and post the url here.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this
Dang - I can’t find it. Still looking though. It said that Nagin got testy with the new director of FEMA calling him the new self-appointed czar? or something along those lines. I’m trying to find it so I don’t say something totally wrong. One resident did say that bush should be sent down there to live or otherwise leave them alone. (again paraphrased but that was the jist of it).
By chuck
September 20, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this
It took me awhile last night, but I was able to work my way through all of the responses and I can’t believe that nobody called Diane out over this statement (especially the second part):
*Other world religions don’t have the same single-minded call to convert, as there is in Christian theology.
Which is why it’s naive to think evangelical aid workers are only there to help. Missionaries have a “mission� and evangelicals are “committed�. They may provide assistance to those in need, but they aren’t “in it� to help so much as to amass obedient followers.*
My first question is, “How many of the churches from the Atlanta area expect to pick up members from NO?” Second, “What kind of sick, twisted person is she to think that the assistance sent in to the area has strings attached, just because it is Christians who are sending the aid?” Couldn’t the same thing be said of the Red Cross which lives off of the donations of the American people? They are just down there helping because they want to talk us out of our hard earned money so those fat cats at the Red Cross headquarters can get rich off us poor saps.
Jesus said people will know His diciples because of their LOVE. That’s why the Southern Baptist Church is offering aid and NO OTHER REASON. I can’t speak for other denominations, but I cannot imagine my church requiring ANY conditions for receiving LOVE from our church in whatever form it is given, whether financial, emotional or spiritual. Certainly there will be times when Jesus’ offer of salvation will be spoken of to the people who receive assistance, but they are under no obligation to even LISTEN to receive help. I have been involved in a number of these efforts both from a perspective of giving to the effort AND on the frontlines offering assistance and I have NEVER seen a strings attached approach used in any of them.
I think what this is really about is that Diane and many others of you take EVERY OPPORTUNITY to push an agenda that would take Christianity completely from the public realm. The SBC was on the ground with aid quicker than either the Red Cross or FEMA. In areas of Mississippi where the church is strong, neighbors were helping other, people were pulling together as soon as the storm was over to find survivors, gather belongings and to share what they had with each other. In sin city, they were looting, shooting each other, raping each other and leaving each other for dead. Which place would you rather live in?
Those who name the name of Christ as their Savior and Lord are not perfect, but they will usually do what is right. AND they will do it out of love with no ulterior motives.
By Renee
September 20, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
bridges - your 11:38am post is so true. I was just watching CNN and they are all mad that they can’t get in the city.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this
Here is one of the stories but it’s not the one I read this morning. I can’t find that one now.
11alive story
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
Renee - I was afraid I was making things up in my mind, I’m glad that it can be confirmed that I’m not going nuts. (of course that’s debatable).
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
Does it mean everyone is in agreement that “aid should not be allowed to promote religious messages during disaster relief?” Seeing as no one is talking about this initial point anymore?
We can haggle sub/micro-topics all day; but I am curious as to where the broader topic stands in this blog…
I personally do not care if a group uses money from their personal funds and demands a “Praise Jesus” from a person in need in order for that person to get aid - granted, I think it is slimey, but that is their freedom to do so. (and do not take this as a “all groups do this” notion - just they have that freedom is all)
But, if the group is using govmt money, I believe they should be mandated not to be able to spend any of it on “advertising for Jesus;” but only for materials, etc.
Replies?
By Jack
September 20, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
Good article on Eddie Long today in the AJC. What a crook. I’ll bet Jesse Jackson is real proud of him.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this
FATMOOSE - To reply to your question, I refer you to my 9:51a post from 9/19:
THIS TOPIC SUCKS! It’s a joke, a no-brainer, a worthless non-argument!
It can all be summed up by the following three statements:
Aid should be given without strings. If religious groups want to give aid with strings, it’s wrong, but it’s their right. Religious groups who give aid with strings shouldn’t use government funds to do so.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this
JBM-
I concur.
By chuck
September 20, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
I don’t think churches should be getting OR spending any money from the Government. I don’t understand the mentality that would believe God has enough power to save one from hell, but not enough to fund a ministry that He ordained. If God guides someone to begin a ministry, He will provide the resources necessary for that ministry to achieve its purpose. He won’t do it through the government…He’ll do it through His people.
As for the question of using private aid to promote religion, I think the question is misguided. The purpose of the church is to reach out to the lost and encourage the saved. That should be the focus of EVERY ministry of the church. Should acceptance of that message be a condition of receiving assistance? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
By Scott
September 20, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
I really think this is a non-issue. I would love to see ONE example of acceptance of the message of those involved churches being a condition of assistance. I doubt I will, however. Diane is off her rocker with this one
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Jack - Another one today? I read one on 8/28/05. I’ll have to go and find this one. Where’d you find it?
By Renee
September 20, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
Yeah Jack I read that article a long time ago. I’m sure he has quite a faithful following still. Did you see his comments when questioned about his money. It’s too funny.
By Jack
September 20, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
Just Being Me. It is a link off of the main page in todays AJC online.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this
If God guides someone to begin a ministry, He will provide the resources necessary for that ministry to achieve its purpose. He won’t do it through the government
Chuck, just curious. How do you know how God will provide resources?
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
JBM-
I would think that Chuck is saying (if wrong, I humbly apologise) that if an avenue (govmt funding for example) is blocked; that means nothing to God and he will create a new avenue if none exist.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Must be the same one from 8/28.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
To keep with the separation of church and state, aid should not be given to religious groups. But that is actually kinda tough because isn’t the salvation army based on a religious group or am I completely wrong about that?
You can’t force anyone to not witness to someone else even if they are a volunteer for a non-religious based government aided group.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
that’s what I got from what chuck said too. He’ll find another way for it to happen, whether it be from private donations or whatever.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
FatMoose - Now with that I can agree.
I thought he was saying that the church shouldn’t pursue those avenues at all… that if God really intended for the church to begin a particular ministry, then the people will provide the resources.
By chuck
September 20, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
No, that’s not what I meant at all. Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar’s and unto God that which is God’s.” If you study the Bible, you will find hundreds of examples of how God provided the necessary resources when He called someone to do something. The only instances that I could find of “government” providing anything to the church was when the government and the church were the same thing, for example, the Kingdom of Israel building the Temple. There are a number of instances when God used governments of rival nations to provide for individual believers, but not to carry out ministry necessarily. I didn’t do an exhaustive search, but I don’t think you will find it.
That said, in Romans 13, Paul saidRomans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.Can God use government to fund a ministry? Well since He is sovereign, and since He established government, I suppose He could. He is in charge, not me…but, I have never seen an example of that happening in His word. I have, however, seen example after example of Him using His people to meet those needs.
I don’t think that the church of Amighty God ought to go hat-in-hand to the government to meet the needs of ministry. As for the Salvation Army, It is not funded by the government, though I think they are one of the organizations that the Faith Based Initiative was meant for. I think it is unseemly for the church to do so (theoretically, the Salvation Army and other like-minded groups are not churches, but rather they are non-profit organizations with Christian philosophies). I know this sounds wishy washy, but I’m not sure how I feel about groups like that getting government funds. I am definitely against ANY church applying for or receiving government funding.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
that’s why I brought up the salvation army, I know they aren’t government funded but they do a lot that isn’t smothered in “christian” terms like church groups are and makes me kinda wishy washy about them recieving aide.
By Facts
September 20, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
The Salvation Army is actually a Christian religious denomination.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
My ex-boyfriend in DC is an employee of the Salvation Army. He is the church organist and plays for their services on Sundays and for choir rehearsals during the week.
Salvation Army is a church in every sense of the word. They may have other functions as well, but they operate a church.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
The Salvation Army is actually a Christian religious denomination.
seriously? I’ve never heard that. Not doubting at all, just never knew that.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
Hmmm - learn something every day! Interesting. Well then my opinion stands for them too.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Opinion poll:Do you think animals have souls?
If so, back up your reply with a short answer. Or ingore this if you find it useless;)
Mainly curious as to what you all think, and have no absolute opinion - but would venture that they do…
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this
ingore = ignore; seems just as appropriate;)
you get what I mean;)
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
Animals - I certainly do believe they have souls. My back up answer is biblical. It was the snake that tempted eve to take the apple. Granted, the devil took the snake and manipulated it to get eve to sin but that wouldn’t have happened if it didn’t have a soul.
Personal experience… I don’t think that my dog (the one that passed away last year) could have loved me as much as she did if she didn’t have a soul. She was honestly my best friend. I swear she knew everything I told her.
By Renee
September 20, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Animals have souls (in my opinion). They have feelings, they just can’t express them to where we can always understand them. I can understand mine most of the time though. I’ve lost two dogs and the first time I cried like it was a family member. I loved her so much. The second time it was just as hard. My doggie and my cat now are my heart. They love me unconditionally. All they want is food and love.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
Boy is that a good question, FatMoose.
As the mother of 3 cats, 1 dog, and 2 turtles, I’d like to think that all my babies have souls. But, honestly, I’d have to say that they probably don’t. I haven’t ever given this much thought, so bare with me if none of this makes sense.
I’m thinking that if animals have souls, then all living things (fish, trees, flowers, yeast, etc.) have souls too. Since that would be pretty hard to believe, I’m going to guess that animals probably don’t have souls.
Plus, I think that souls are the real being of a human. I think the body is just a fleshly covering for who you really are, which is your soul.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
Bridges,
Only problem I see is that the snake stuff was fabricated. The original text happens to name the animals that were present and during ST. Agustine’s time they were looking for ANY possible metaphor of the devil. They chose the snake bc of its history of evil - which stems in earliest times from them moving w/o legs.
I mentioned it earlier, but the History channel is playing a great documentary on the rise of Satan and Hell. I find it exremely disturbing that organized religion rasied his status in order to gather more people during sermons.
But that is ANOTHER topic;0
By Dan
September 20, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
It is nice to see the argument restated. I believe a couple of days ago the question was should they promote religion, now it say should they be able to. In my opinion of course they should be able to. Churches and religious organizations, regardless of denomination, do far more in this country for the welfare of the needy than any government program. Funny the laws these days uphold the right for agressive denominations to come to your door and push their beliefs on you. Yet if you try to serve a meal to someone while wearing a cross people want to put a halt to it. Amazing
By Zack
September 20, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
Diane Glass’ comments are ignorant. This might sound rude, but they are. (I think she has been watching “Desperate Housewives” too much again; as though once isn’t too much.)
Ms. Glass needs to study the First Amendment more carefully. Separation of Church and state is NOT in the First Amendment or anywhere else except the mouths of liberals wanting to reshape our culture and turn us all into bots so we can sit back and do absolutely nothing while the ACLU perpetuates its myths and outright lies down the minds of our culture, in particular, our young people—something Ms. Glass seems perfectly fine with.
I’m not saying Republicans are without blame. We have our so-called Christian president doing very, very little against abortion and gay rights, and he’s lying through his teeth each time he says Islam is peaceful, the compromiser.
I’m out of time. More later. Don’t listen to Diane Glass.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this
I find the notion that a soul needs consciencness one that may explain why a wild dog may not; but once domesticated they can develop.
Kinda of like spreading consienceness is our job - and to keep it expanding. Therefore we have different levels of animals to express this ability….
Thoughts?
By FactsMaybe
September 20, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
As humans are merely highly involved animals with souls, it stands to reason that the lesser evolved animals also have souls. We like to say that they obviously do not, but we do not know that, we just like to think we are so superior. But are we really?
Of course we are, since my dog cannot do my taxes(thanks Randy was it?). But have you ever tried to catch a bird with your hands? My cat does it all the time, well, let’s just call it from time to time, when I am not paying attention. It is actually VERBOTEN, but you know cats.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
FatMoose - can’t say I agree with the snake thing but like you said, that’s another topic. :)
But I do think your on something about the soul needing consciousness. A dog can be taught not to do something but I’m not sure they understand WHY its wrong or even that it IS wrong, just that they know it makes his human unhappy. If they knew it was wrong, it would be a conscious descision not to do it rather than a trained behavior.
I suppose I would just like to think they have souls comparible to humans, I don’t think they are completely souless though. I also don’t think that trees, flowers, anything living is souless. Trees feel pain just not in the same respect as humans.
By BonnieJean
September 20, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
You people are sooo boisterous in spewing out hate and disbelief of God. Unlike man, he doesn’t have to prove anything….all in his due time. Most speak boldly because he’s not belittled himself into “MAKING” you believe he exists, although he’s everywhere. He created the world, all power is in his hands, he controls and allows things to be. Say what you will or may, but when it’s all over with, us believers will know from eternal life and the naysayers, from eternal damnation. Watch your mouths, EVERYTHING IS BEING RECORDED.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
BonnieJean - you can scratch me off that list of “you people”…. nice judgemental job you got there. Maybe you should take your own advice… Watch YOUR mouth, EVERYTHING IS BEING RECORDED!
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
Bridges,
But think about how an animal will assist another - even prey sometimes - if it is in need. Conscience animals, in my experience, do this frequently compared to wild ones.
There is a dog named Zack (no pun or joke here at our local dogMA spouter named Zack), and his owner asked him to get the hammer that fell under the deck he was repairing: Zack looked at him, then the hammer; vola, he retrieved it.
The owners were unsure if it was just normal retrieval or a fluke and tried other test. By the end of the week Zack could: play basketball on a small childs goal, putt a golf ball by holding/swinging a club, and a dozen other activities culminating with him writing (although messy as heck) his name on a paper with a pen.
They are now selling his autographs.
Something more must be going on inside that dog than in a wild wolf for instance.
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this
Well, technically, dogs and cats avoid negative behavior for the same reasons we do: fear of consequences. A dog knows that if he jumps on the couch, he’ll get swatted. A child knows that if she touches the oven, she’ll get burned. An adult knows that if she speeds on the highway, he’ll get a ticket or cause an accident.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
BonnieJean,
Why not try to address people and your topic directly? Otherwise it sounds like you have no ability to discuss and assist.
Bridges: Right on. This is what sickens me: Here we are, some christians talking about “what ifs,” and we get chastised by a christian that furthers the stereotype of judgement! And for what? Asking intelligent questions!
BonnieJean: Have a son named jonathan by chance? You remind me of someone.
By Jack
September 20, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Bonnie Jean. You wouldn’t be related to Zack would you? You people. You people. Mercy!
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
JBM-
Right re you last post.
And as the connections get more complex, humans (as well as animals) begin to make their OWN decisions on right/wrong based on that structure.
Seems plausable…
By Just Being Me
September 20, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this
Hey Bonnie Jean:
Honey, you obviously have no idea how hateful you sound. Your comments did not, in any way, reflect the fruit of the Spirit of Christ (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, meekness, gentleness goodness, faith)…
Before you start working on other people, work on yourself, hon.
By Comment
September 20, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
Bonnie Jean probably reads mostly from the Old Testament. Leviticus especially.
By buildingbridges
September 20, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this
Hey I already stated that I liked to think they have souls. :) Some are smarter than others and their is a difference in consciousness rather than learned behavior.
By FatMoose
September 20, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
Bridges
I was just reiterating and jelling the concepts together: It helps me process info;) Did not mean to steal thunder;)
Have a good day all!
By AllAboutME
September 21, 2005 07:15 AM | Link to this
…my brother lives on the Gulf…his property was decimated by Katrina…save for a fridge…twenty four hours after the storm he was declared GOD by the masses having brought BEER to the needy…o ye little fishes…converting lost souls with your bread and fish…remember: put a 6-pack among them holy texts…and the flock will crawl out to salvation singing AMEN…
By taboga
September 21, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
I see I missed alot of excitement and “intelligent” discussion yesterday!
Was it ever officially determined as to whether animals have “souls” or not? It was hard to tell, what with going back and forth between that and all the “Wanted” posters being put up for those alien religious groups invading our secular land and trying to impose their foreign beliefs on everyone.
And if we could just have a moment of silence on the blog for everyone that has lost a pet…
God have mercy on their “souls”. Amen.
By Brian Curtis
September 21, 2005 08:25 AM | Link to this
Hmm… animal souls. I doubt they have souls. But then, I doubt humans do, too. And for the same reason.
By Randy
September 21, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
Brian, Ever hear of “Spirit”? People use it in many ways, “Great team spirit” “Have some passion” etc. Your spirit is your soul. Your soul is you. You can lose a arm or a leg but “you” still exist. Ones soul is like losing your whole body, instead of just your arm. But you still exist. That’s your soul. It’s your essence, and it exists without a doubt. It’s also immortal, it’s going somewhere, when your earthly body dies.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this
The topic sucks so bad that everyone is blogged out already. See ya next week.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this
aahhhhh…. I had thought we might have gotten lucky but alas, here comes the intellectual conversation of Taboga. I’m not going to bite though. :)
By Thanks
September 21, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
Taboga,
Thanks for the prayer for my long-time doggy friend. He ‘passed on’ about two years ago. But I know he lived a good life and always obeyed, so I am sure he went to Doggie Heaven. I do not plan to join him later.
By Info
September 21, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
Taboga has been trolling around the Education blog spouting out rhetoric in order to ruffle feathers.
This topic does blow. Not even the religion rants or homosexual rants have come out to cause a firestorm of debate.
Where is everybody?
By Brian Curtis
September 21, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
Randy: Interesting theory, and you’re certainly welcome to believe in it if you like. Me, I’ve seen no evidence of such a thing—so its existence certainly IS in doubt. Just not to you.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
No don’t bite bridges.
By Michael H.
September 21, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
Unusual bent these responses have taken and the original topic was certainly less than engaging.
I find myself wondering why these metaphysical beliefs about souls in animals and trees feeling pain persist in the 21st century. We know a fair bit about consciousness and pain and both appear to be based in physiology, specifically the possession of a central nervous system, which trees certainly do not have. I have no doubt that animals have conscious states but that is the result of an evolutionary process producing a central nervous system with functions that enable them to adapt to and survive in their environments. There seems to be no evolutionary purpose served by an immobile plant possessing sentient capacities.
I certainly agree with Brian that the existence of souls in humans is problematic and understandably the belief is grounded in the hope for an afterlife, but not in evidence.
By Bruce
September 21, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this
Brian Curtis,
The matters of which Randy are talking about are matters of the heart not the mind. Until you are willing to open your heart you will never be able to understand the existences of the soul.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this
Topic, please anyone……well, not anyone, someone intelligent. I can’t come up with one, mind is mush today. So maybe I would do better with an unintelligent topic
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
Brian - so if humans are souless, what causes us to do good things in life. Helping the old lady across the street? What would be the ‘purpose’ of life if we were just souless beings wandering the earth with now drive or goal?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
Have you never had house plants? Don’t you know that it’s been proven that talking to your plants helps them to grow? I talk to mine all the time and they are thriving! That’s just my take on it. I don’t mean that plants have a central nervous system like humans but they are living things that get sick and can die, they, like animals, can live in the wild or if they are domesticated need human contact for survival.
According to cave drawings and paintings throughout the times, animals have evolved very little. A central nervous system didn’t just suddenly “appear” in them so that they could adapt to their surroundings.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this
Renee - I’m not much help. I’ve got the beginnings of a nasty cold and my mind is mush as well. Not to mention my office-mate has some classical opera crap on his radio that’s driving me nuts! Its the kind that makes you want to grab your hair and scream.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
I missed you (well, most of you) yesterday - was too busy to read or post. Interesting question: Do animals have souls? What is a soul? Are we talking about consciousness? If so then all animals, including human animals, have consciousness. Christians like Randy believe what they’ve been taught: only humans have a soul, something that exists before birth and after death. It’s a religious belief and there’s certainly no scientific evidence or proof for that belief. What happens to the soul of an ant when you step on it? How about the soul of a whale when it’s harpooned? One of the most interesting comments yesterday was BuildingBridges: “Animals - I certainly do believe they have souls. My back up answer is biblical. It was the snake that tempted eve to take the apple. Granted, the devil took the snake and manipulated it to get eve to sin but that wouldn’t have happened if it didn’t have a soul.” I’m sorry BB but this just don’t wash! This is only one of thousands of creation stories from our ancestors throughout the world. This particular one is the Hebrew creation story. The Hebrews were a small group worshipping a sky God and they were surrounded by people who worshipped nature, the earth, the Goddess. To many Goddess worshippers the snake was considered sacred because it shed its skin and represented rebirth. The tree was sacred. The Hebrew story was bad P.R. for the others groups. The Hebrew story turned the sacred snake into a mercenary for the devil, and the woman into the one who brought death into the world. Don’t forget how quickly the Hebrews turned back to their golden calves and the goddess when Moses wasn’t around! There was a fight going on for the hearts of the Hebrew people between the followers of Yahweh and the followers of the Old Religions of the Goddess. History/religion/politics is written by the winners!
By Renee
September 21, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this
This is for all the office workers:
You know, sometimes I hate working in corporate America. Why? Because of those damn cubes. Cubes have to be the worst thing created in the workplace. No privacy. People looking over your shoulder.
All your phone business being heard by the world. And what’s up with people that walk by as slow as they possibly can, to see what website you’re surfing instead of working? I hate that.
You really want to see me go postal? Hover by my cube too long. You may get cussed out. It’s my cube.
Don’t just bust up in there unannounced. Knock on the wall. Stick your head around the corner to see if I’m busy. Announce your presence. Don’t
just stroll in because you don’t see a door. It’s my cube.
Don’t walk past and ask me who are all the pretty people in my pictures that decorate my desk. First of all, I don’t have any ugly friends. Second of all, I don’t have any ugly family. Third of all, what are you doing lolly gagging around my cube long enough to look at all the pictures that I have anyway? Don’t slow your roll at my cube, speed it up. It’s my cube.
Don’t ask me where I got my plants from, my mirror from or my motivational prints from. That means you’ve been standing there too long, you better keep on walking. In fact, why don’t you walk your to the nearest Garden Ridge, IKEA or Target? You wanna see decorations? Go to the store! It’s my cube.
If you see me on the phone, don’t come in. Don’t sit in my vacant chair until I’m done talking on the phone. What makes you think I want you to know all my personal business? I haven’t summoned you. I haven’t invited you to take a seat. I haven’t asked you to laugh along with me at the jokes I tell my friends on the other line.
We don’t need to correspond in person. That’s what an in box was created for. You wanna talk to me? Send me an e-mail. You got work for me to see? Drop it off in the in box OUTSIDE of my cube. It ain’t hanging there for decoration! It’s my cube.
Don’t listen for noises from my cube that announce whether I’m arriving or leaving. I hate that! When I get here in the morning, I get here. I don’t need you to say good morning loud enough so that the whole department can hear. Why do they need to know that I got here at 8:05, not 8:00? And when I get ready to leave, I’m gone. >If you hear me taking my purse out of the draw or zipping up my bag, I don’t need you to say goodbye loud enough so that the whole department can hear you announce my departure at 4:45 and not 5:00. I hate that! It’s my cube.
Don’t think because I have staples, pens and notepads, that means you borrow some, I said no the first time. If I say I don’t have any, don’t walk by to check and see if I’m lying. I am. I just don’t want you to have it. Do like I did. Walk down the hall to the big supply room and get you some things. What do I look like, Office Max? It’s my cube.
Respect it!
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this
Lozen - I’m sorry.. that just doesn’t wash? I don’t even have an answer for your drawn out wordy explaination for why YOU believe that doesn’t wash. why, when we agree that animals (human or 4 legged) have souls must you beat down something else? That’s ONE of MY reason for believe that animals have souls. The story may be ‘fabricated’ although I’ve still YET to see any proof of that. Can’t you just let someone have their own thoughts and beliefs without chastizing a stupid thing that you don’t agree with? goodness grascious.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this
Renee - AMEN to that!!! I hate cubes and if I ever own my own firm, I’m not going to have them if at all possible!
By Renee
September 21, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this
I know. Somebody sent me that and I thought it was really funny (and true). I hate when someone hears me and shouts out Good Morning (always when I’m running late) lol.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
Here’s something else that might make you shake your head at me but,
I still believe in Santa Clause (the spirit of christmas)
I still believe in the Easter Bunny
I still believe in wishing on a shooting star.
I still believe in the man on the moon.
I still believe in gardian angels.
I enjoy believing in those things. They make a mundane, drolled out life that’s consumed by work and horrors of every day mishaps worth living.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this
LOL it’s when I’m late is when I seem to run into everyone coming in! Totally frustrating! And my office is the embodiment of old time control…we have to sign IN when we come and sign out whenever we go anywhere. Their reasoning is so that the admin assistant will know where we are if we get calls but I’m certain it’s so that boss man can keep track.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
Goodness gracious BB! Excuse me for thinking we were having a discussion here. Didn’t realize I was beating down anything; just disagreeing with you. If you post your beliefs on a public blog then you just might get some disagreement.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
Lozen - I know I over-reacted and I’m sorry. I don’t mind disagreements nor do I mind when others don’t agree with me, it’s when they are done in a belittleing (sp?) manner which you’ve never done so it was an over-reaction on my part. I’m sick…I know, no excuse, but I am so I’m a little touchy I guess.
again, I apologize.
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
Renee, the only thing more unnatural than sitting in a little box all day, staring at a little box all day, is the hour we sit behind a steering wheel going to and from the little box we sit in all day. Eight hours in the box, plus one hour obligatory “lunch” time (usually spent in a box), plus two hours commute time = 11 hours… x five days per week x 50 weeks per year… WHO HAS TIME FOR A LIFE? And Americans scoff at the French, who work no more than 36 hours a week and take at least six weeks vacation a year. AT LEAST THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES! Hey Y’all… enjoy the frozen entree you’re about to nuke for lunch and eat in your gray, sorry little cubicle while checking the awful news headlines. AAAACCCCCCCKKKKK!
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this
kimberly - you just described my life to a T. Are you spying on me? looking around office for cameras
By lozen
September 21, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Bruce, I do have a heart and I don’t agree with Randy. My heart (and my mind) are open but I don’t just accept superstitious beliefs without question. I would love to see some real evidence that we have souls. I haven’t seen any evidence of that. Some people believe our souls are reincarnated and we live more than one life. It’s an interesting idea, but there’s no proof for that either. Some people believe we are soul, part of the great spirit, and not an individual soul separate from the great spirit. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you. How do you understand that if you believe the kingdom of heaven is someplace you will go to if you follow the right rules?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
See how fuzzy my brain is?!? This was totally redundant and I didn’t even catch it…
I don’t mind disagreements nor do I mind when others don’t agree with me
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this
Maybe that is why the Snake was chosen for the Garden of Eden story. To discredit those “heathen” religions. I have always found it interesting that there are many similiarities with the Biblical Ten Commandments and the earlier ancient Eqyptians’ 40 Negative Confessions.
But for some reason you do not find governmental officials wanting to post the 40 Negative Confessions on a courthouse wall.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
Plants do better when you talk to them because you exhale what they eat. C02. Good therapy though!
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Proof is all around, it’s a matter of seeing what we WANT to see.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Jack - well I know that but it’s again what you choose to believe. Where I know scientifically that plants eat (hmm..a human act) what we exhale CO2 (I took chemistry too), I still like to think that my talking to them helps. Maybe I’m naive but I’m a happy naive. :)
By JD
September 21, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
It’s not your cube, your just a warm bodies temporarily performing a function for your own personal and professional needs. You think corporate America needs you? If it wasn’t you, it’ld be someone else doing the exact same task, day in and day out, come what may. Once time casts you out, someone else will file in and your cube will continue on, believe it or not without you. Id be nice though if upon me waking up each morning the entire world roled over and welcome me into the day, smiled at me, and sent me on my way, then I might be just alittle more empathetic to the co-worker next to me snooping around looking for a post it note, or a pen, or some juicy gossip, or the one person who says good morning to me as I walk my late tail into the office. I might even say good evening to person who actually noticed me escaping from the cube factory early. Either that or I might just rethink posting my bitter diatribe about working in a public company, no doubt, while NOT enjoying my salary, my benefits, or my constantly diminishing sense of accomplishment. What should I do? How can I control the activities and nuances of the people around me. What can I do to attract only the attention I need when I need it according to my needs. What is wrong with you people? You expect me to be humble with all my persuits when I obviously am the real reason you all come to work daily. To annoy me, to defile my cube, my file cabinet, my post it’s. I pity the fool. Come get cussed out, bring it on. One by one you will all fall by the way side scratching and crawling as I navigate through this nightmare of life.
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Lozen… I liken it to fleas and elephants. You see, the flea on the elephant can never really understand the elephant. He might THINK he does, but the elephant is too big for him to see the whole thing. He can never know the full form, shape, power, or complexity of his host. He takes nourishment from it, and without that he would die.
So it is with humans who CLAIM to understand our Creator. Oh, some hang on the side and say “It’s like a wall” and some hang on the trunk and say “It’s like a snake…” and so forth. But truly, we cannot know beyond what we CAN know. As for the Bible (I haven’t read the other holy transcripts, so I can’t speak about them), it was a collection of diaries, letters, and essays written by MEN. They each told one version of a story. Then some misogynistic, wealthy, power-grabbing robe-wearers (popes and cardinals and such) decided hundreds of years ago WHICH of these stories would stay in the “official history book” and which would be locked away in the cellar or burned. Now, some people read this “official book” and SWEAR that it is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Don’t you find that just a wee bit ARROGANT? I do. I mean, you can’t know the elephant if you’re a flea! Hang on, take nourishment, and believe that somewhere in it all is a purpose we may never understand. That’s what I do, and yes I feel connected to something greater than myself.
By polygon
September 21, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Glass is complaining about something that doesn’t exist. I’ve not heard one story about a Katrina survivor being offered relief with strings attached. Christian relief organizations just don’t do that. Yes, I do know of Christian relief workers who have also organized worship services, prayer meetings, etc. but they are never made a condition for receiving aid. Glass has just exposed herself as a part of the radical anti-Christian left making up rants about things she knows nothing about.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this
Hey, if it makes you happy, it makes them happy!
By lozen
September 21, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this
I am so sorry you all hate your jobs so much! I have certainly been there many times. Not the commute though because I decided a long time ago I’ll just pay more and live close to my work because I hate commuting so much. I’ve had some terrible jobs in the past and never stayed anywhere longer than three years until now. I love my job and my 5th anniversary is coming up in December. A university is a great place to work; always something interesting going on and I get free classes. The professors are characters and i really enjoy them; the students keep us young with their ideas and life styles. I’m swimming in books all the time (one of my favorite things), listening to conversations going on amongst people who really know their subject because they studied so long to get their PhDs. The campus is beautiful and my supervisor and co-workers are like family. There are great jobs out there, don’t give up.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this
Working in a cube is WAY better than manual labor. I take it anyday. As bad as it is, it sure beats the unemployment line.
By Brian Curtis
September 21, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this
Bruce: I have no problem opening my heart. I just don’t shut off my brian to do it. Yes, I care about a lot of people AND innocent creatures… more tham many, perhaps. But that doesn’t mean I believe they have magical self-essence that transcends the mortal plane. They might, but I don’t know of any reason to think so.
BB: Our “purpose” is exactly what we make of it. We have no pre-existing purpose or reasons assigned to us, so we get to make our own. Kindness to strangers and animals can be arrived at without invoking the prospect of divine wrath or otherwordly compensation.
By Brian Curtis
September 21, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Dang typos… “shut off my BRAIN” to do it, and “more THAN many.” Sheesh.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this
Brian you should share those “ludes” you’re doin. LOL
By Renee
September 21, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
JD it was just a joke. Nobody (I think) think they are not replaceable at work. But now that I have moved out of state my commute is 5 minutes. Compared to my 30 minute to 1 hour commute on 285 that is great. But it was a joke, meant for some light humor. Does everything have to serious ALL the time.
By Bruce
September 21, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this
Lozen,
I know it exist becuase I have faith that it does. I look at spiritual matters through my heart not my mind. The world controls the mind because you can see and touch things. The heart controls the spirit becuase it takes faith to understand the things you cannot see…… It makes perfect sence to me. IMO a person that cannot believe in spiritual things has no faith because their mind has controlled them for so long and their pride refuses to allow them to even try to regain what only the heart can control….. It is a faith thing and some people just refuse to allow themselves to have faith in anything they cannot see or touch. Once you allow faith into your heart “following the right rules” is simply a matter of living your life.
By Jack
September 21, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this
Renee. Your not in Georgia anymore? Our loss. Congrads on the short commute, I’m green.
By Just Being Me
September 21, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
Speaking of arriving late… I decided to sleep in this morning since my boss is out of town, and my partner doesn’t go in until 12 on Wednesdays. When I finally rolled in around 11:30a this morning, not only did I run into the HR lady on her way to lunch - but then, rode on the elevator with the SVP! His opening remarks: Late night?
By Renee
September 21, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
Thanks, Jack. Yes I moved to Vermont.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this
thats too funny jbm; not for you at the time, but I’m sure you can look back and laugh.
By Just Being Me
September 21, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
RENEE - I actually did laugh at the moment. When I got to my desk, I called my partner and told her what happened and we just laughed hysterically. I’m convinced that stuff like that only happens to me! LOL
By E. Lewis
September 21, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
Private religious groups are allowed to publicly preach just about where ever they wish. If it happens to be in a disaster and they are doing this under the auspices of private funding, so be it. At the very least people will become away of how generous and open or small minded and discriminatory these people are.
By JD
September 21, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this
Wasn’t the sarcasm bleeding through though….I thought you were fighter …I smiled the whole time reading this morning and assumed my post would hit the right spot….silly me.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this
Renee- there’s a law school in vermont that I wanted to go to. Other things kept me here though. I bet it’s beautiful up there!
Brian-that’s where I disagree. If we can make whatever we want to of it, then why are we all so individual? It takes all sorts of different people to make the world turn (so to speak, I know not literally) so why don’t we get to decide what we are good at? I could practice all day long but I’ll never be a basketball player. I just think there’s more to it than what we make of it.
kimberly - nice analogy. There are some that think they know everything from reading the bible that’s true, but just because we can’t see the whole picture doesn’t mean we can’t try to understand the whole picture. If your going to make that analogy, the same can be said for the small 2 square foot piece of land that I stand on all day in respect to the whole world. I can’t even begin to understand the rest of the world no matter how much news I read so what right do I have to assume any position or opinions about it?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
JBM - that’s pretty funny! :)
By JD
September 21, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
I think we’re polar opposites I got one of those jobs where if I didn’t shave my face or comb my hair it’s highly like management would send security in to escort the stranger occuping the office in the corner out the door. I like my job but contact with other warm bodied people is a spirit lifter. The only time anyone notices me is when something ends up fubared then I become a important productive team member.
By JD
September 21, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0920051katrina1.html. I guess everythings a gimick now days.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, you got it going on with the elephant analogy girlfriend, as usual. As far as the cube thing you posted Renee, we just got rid of the secretary who wrote that ;-} Well, it sounds like she could have written it. She either ignored people when they said “good morning” or snarled at them, got mad when anyone dared to walk into HER space, stayed on the phone all the time talking to friends and raised hell when the head of the office got fed up one day when he needed something and made a remark about her being on the phone all the time. She could not believe he had the nerve to say that; after all he was just her boss! The supervisor here is golden and very easy going but problem secretary didn’t appreciate that and criticized her all the time. She took advantage of the easy going nature of the supervisor and pushed it to the limit taking two hour lunches and coming in late every day. She thought she was too professional for the job, didn’t finish jobs assigned to her, and made so many mistakes the supervisor had to clean up behind her which doubled her job! It’s hard to get fired here, but she managed!
By Rebecca
September 21, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this
I absolutely believe that the spiritual needs of the evacuees should to be met, along with the physical ones. My main concern is that nobody seems very concerned about the spiritual needs of the non Christians. These “faith based” organizations tend to treat non Christians as a godless breed, when in fact the only issue is with the god in whom they believe. If these people truly believe in meeting the spiritual needs of these people and not trying to convert them there would be no problem, unfortunately, we all know that is not the case. Christians have a problem that others can believe in a god that is not theirs. They try to make themselves sound like martyrs, but they are trying to wage a holy war against anyone who disagrees with them. When Christians assk “what would Jesus do” I have serious doubts that He would respond with the kind of bigotry and hatred that todays Christians are becoming so adept at.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this
JD to your 12:14 post, I’m not a fighter today. No energy. Fighting too many losing battles on my job this week (absolutely draining). But it’s all in fun.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
JD to your 12:14 post, I’m not a fighter today. No energy. Fighting too many losing battles on my job this week (absolutely draining). But it’s all in fun (here I mean) not at work.
By Brian Curtis
September 21, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
BB: There’s a difference between intent and ability. You can decide to try to become a basketball player—you can even decide that’s your purpose in life. But if you don’t have the ability, it won’t make much difference.
“Life is what you make of it” is true, but only in an attitudinal sense. Otherwise we’re constrained by physics and circumstances.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
I don’t know how that posted twice..see I’m a complete basket case.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this
Rebecca - I know that you meant to say “SOME” christians act that way. ;-)
Brian - right, I could. It would be a complete waste of time, but I could. :) Most NBA or even WNBA (I’m not sure, I don’t follow women’s bball) teams don’t want a 5’5” (on a good heeled day) on their team. I could also decide to sumu (sp?) wrestle. I’m not saying I believe in pre-destination but I do believe that there is a purpose for everyone. It might not be universe alternating purposes, but purposes just the same. Maybe you have the purpose in my life to open my mind some about different views or vice versa. NOT saying thats your ONLY purpose. lol just saying I believe there is a reason for everything. (Yup…I’m one of those ;-) )
By taboga
September 21, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Muslim terrorists running around doing what they do best - but you can always depend on the Left to accuse Christians of a “Holy War”.
And I would bet that if one of you “intellectuals” out here that is so concerned about religious groups (Christians) getting tax money to help with the hurricane relief effort, you could probably do a quick search on the net and find out how much tax money has gone to ISRAEL over these many years…
You know, ISRAEL, that little country that grants citizenship to people according to race/religion. And they are using your tax dollars to sponsor it all.
Strange how we haven’t heard any “uproar” about that, isn’t it?
But nah, we’ll just keep bashing the Christians for helping Americans.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Lozen - certainly sounds like a good reason to terminate her!! Talk about haughty.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Bruce, don’t understand your argument, never have and probably never will. The heart and the mind aren’t two separate things IMO. They work together, or should work together. Just because someone cannot accept the kind of religious beliefs Randy accepts doesn’t mean they have no heart! Just because someone knows a great deal about religion, religious history, and different religions of different cultures throughout time, doesn’t mean their heart isn’t working right! Faith is a belief in things unseen, right? I believe in love; I love my child and he loves me. I can’t see it; I can feel it though, and I see the results of it. I feel the presence of something in my life, and you would call that god. But I can’t define it so easily, I can’t wrap a book around it, I can’t put it in a box, and I certainly can’t tell others who don’t feel it that something isn’t working right in their heart. I have faith that I don’t have to split my mind and my heart and accept folktales and old creation stories as literal truth. And I have faith that that is just fine.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this
OK…SO what do you do when the music in the cube next to you turns into POLKA!?!? AAUGGHH Let me just turn my country music WAY up.. sorry.. I know, not topic really.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Lozen - I know you were responding to Bruce but I like your description. You feel it and see it and enjoy it like it is and that’s wonderful. I feel that God gave us the ability to feel those things and they are only a fraction of how He feels about us, ALL of us. You chose not to see it that way and like you said, you have to feel that that is ok and it is. I would love to be able to change your mind about it but I won’t, and that’s totally ok too. :)
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
Well put, Lozie. May I add to that? Why is it that the same people who tell us to have FAITH — that is, to believe in something we cannot prove or see, are the same people who provide quotations from a book to “prove” their points about stuff they cannot prove or see? If I have FAITH in my Creator, then WHY do I need a man who calls himself “Reverend” to explain God TO me? Why do I need a rule book? Isn’t faith really about trusting and accepting our Creator, the world he made, and the gifts he gave us? Isn’t it about accepting the message in the heart that says something is right or wrong, i.e.: love is good, and hate is bad? Why do these fundie types demand we learn THEIR book? If I have to have a quote to “prove” it, then it’s not really faith, is it? Haha… thanks for letting me join in on that one.
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
Buidling Bridges: Rage Against the Machine. Either the self-titled, or Battle of Los Angeles.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
Oh Bruce one more thing: if you do want to accept that without question, and fantasize that a jewish rabbi who died 2,000 years ago is your best friend and your vehicle to get to heaven, that’s okay with me.
By Rebecca
September 21, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this
I would love to say that some Christians act that way, but the best that I can give you is that all of the Christians that I know personally act like that. I will concede that my point of view may be a little skewed by the fact that I live in Fayette county, home of the “Jesus Nazis”. Here it has become either Christian or devil, there is no in between.
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
Rebecca, to these Fayette Co. Nazis, when they become too obnoxious, you might want to mention that you think the end is near, based on the signs in Revelations. Their ears will perk up. It says that the faithful will fall under the spell of false prophets. That could easily explain why “Christians” in America today behave so differently from the way Christ behaved — you know.. monetary greed, hatred of the poor, outcast, and downtrodden.. voting for war-mongers, liars and greed-meisters on the basis of “moral values,” and hating their neighbors who are different. Yep. The end is near!
By Jack
September 21, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Several of my cubemates have cell phones that ring all day. If I were king, I would ban them from the office.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Kimberly - think that will work? lol
Rebecca - Sorry you have had bad experiences with that. I know a lot of christians (myself included) that don’t act that way. Atleast I really hope I’m not seen as acting that way, if I am, I need to rectify it. The thing is, we don’t even know each other yet you’ve already insulted my entire family just because we are christians and believe in God.
kimberly - priests and reverands and all spend years studying the passages that were dictacted by God or Jesus, thats why I look to them for help on understanding things. It’s seen as a ‘history’ book. I think I’m a bit more of a rogue chrisian because I don’t take things for what is said, I ask a lot of questions and I’ll form my own opinions after gathering all the information. I can’t give you proof of God, only that in my heart (and mind) I know He exists. It’s just a belief factor, sort of like believing in ghosts.
My boyfriend feels a similar way as a lot of people I’ve heard today. He says he doesn’t know if he believes there is a God or not, he definitely believes there is a higher being but he doesn’t believe the stories in the bible. He says that there is just no way that they could have put all those animals in an ark.
And the polka has GOT to go!!!
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
Wow.. OK kimberly. :)
Jack - Yup! I keep mine on silent cause that is one of my biggest pet peeves and I’m doing horrible at the spelling thing today!
By DontBashIsrael
September 21, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
Better watch it with the Israel bashing, that is a Jewish state and the Jews are God’s Chosen People. It says so right in the Bible they wrote.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Lozen, I know we don’t always see eye to eye but I loved your post.
I think what we as a people need to learn is tolerance. The over zealot Christians learn that everyone is not going to believe, feel, or behave as they do. The non Christians need to be tolerant of the Christians bringing up religion at moments when it does or does not pertain. I think tolerance would go a long way. Humans are different. They think, believe, act differently but try to analyze when another does not think, believe or act the same as them.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
President Bush didn’t need to lie about the WMD that everyone (including Forest Gore) knew about for years on end, all he had to do was lie about the Terrorists. Claim they are Christians instead of the murderous Muslim feces that they are - and folks like Lozen and Brian would be over there boring them to death with all their childishness!
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this
BB- If the Rage CD doesn’t work, try some Ludacris. Haha! Although that would drive me out of my own cube!
We’re on the same page with the other, really. I believe in God AND Christ. Totally. I just don’t believe in [tax-exempt] groups of men telling me how to live, and I don’t believe in people who call themselves Christians but have greed, judgment, and contempt in their hearts instead of love, compassion, tolerance, and a willingness to sacrifice something for the good of others.
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
What exactly is the difference between today’s Muslim Terrorists and Christian history of the past, The Spanish Inquisition, for example, or the complete enslavement of Africa, based on the Africans being un-convertible, already content with their Islamic or animist religions? Did you know that Ethiopia has historically been Christian, and escaped both enslavement and colonization?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
kimberly - definitely on the same page then.
especially about the ludacris running me out of my own space. lol
I agree. I can’t stand any of that either. I’m sure you’ve gathered from my other posts that judgement from anyone completely p** me off.
Renee - I LOVE your tolerance post. I’m almost tempted to print that out and put it up on my computer. NOT even being sarcastic at all. I loved it.
By Renee
September 21, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this
Thanks bridges
By Bruce
September 21, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this
Alright I can except that not everyone is going to believe or have the faith to believe in God. I know I am no more rightous than the next person. But sometimes Lozen your concending attitude is just more than bearable. Was it really necessary for you to describe my faith in such a manner as your 1:52pm post? Couldn’t you have said the same thing but not as sarcastic? Give me all of your opinion you want but please leave out the sarcasm.
Kimberly,
If you do not want to believe that is your right. But tell me can you prove those stories in the Bible did not happen? Can you prove the Bible is not true. Just because it was written by MEN dosen’t make it less true. Can we at least agree on that?
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this
Thoughts: great questions! I had a British boyfriend once (delusions of grandeur) who lamented the end of the “Empire.” (Yes, he was quite a bit older!) He seemed perfectly okay with the whole colonization, enslavement, and taking-what’s-not-yours-to-take aspect of it, even though he was a Bible-thumper to the Nth degree. It was the “God is on OUR side” argument. “He allowed us to subjugate the heathens for their own good, and because WE were Christians.” If I pointed out that Christ Himself did not behave this way, nor did he care for the acquisition and confiscation of the resources of others, I was chastized for stepping out of my place. Hahaha! Fortunately, I was successful in my effort to avoid the intended colonization and enslavement that this particular man had in mind for me! {;->
By Scott
September 21, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
It seems as if tolerance is directly in proportion to what you want to believe. Are there Christians that are intolerant to beliefs contradictory to their own? Certainly. That hardly makes them unique. There are plenty of examples where atheist, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Agnostic have openly disagreed to the point of intolerance about beliefs that dispute theirs. Try getting a hamburger in India…or wearing your natty buisness skirt and suit in Saudi Arabia…or finding a pulled-pork bbq sandwich (yum!) in Jerusalem…or say “Under God” during the pledge of allegiance in Detroit. Good luck.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
Rebecca, and therein lies the BIG problem. Christians in Europe killed millions who didn’t believe as they said they should. It went on for 500 years and some villages were left without any women. They called them witches and said they flew around with the devil and had sex with the devil! Interesting little side note: the church got all the land that had belonged to those people they murdered! Then those heathen people who had this country had to be disposed of so the Spanish cut off their feet for dancing and practicing their religion in the Southwest. Then in Massachusetts for a time they killed “witches.” It seems to me it wouldn’t take too much for that to happen again the way we’re going. That’s why I have to stand up to this way of thinking. Calling all Muslims “feces” is not a far step from thinking it’s okay to round them up and put them in concentration camps!
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Lozen - Calling all Muslims “feces� is not a far step from thinking it’s okay to round them up and put them in concentration camps!
That was taboga and surely you didn’t take what was said from him seriously?!
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
Yet Muslims are feces for wanting to push their view on the world, yet Christians are to be considered honorable for their essentially wanting, and historically doing, the same thing.
Right, Tobago?
By kimberly
September 21, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Bruce, personally I believe that most everything in the Bible is indeed based on something that actually happened. But it was written by men — the editorial columnists of their time, I think. What several different people write about Christ covers (a)roughly a year’s worth of history surrounding conception, gestation, and birth, and (b) the last three or four years of his life, death, and resurrection. That leaves 28-30 years of information VOID. Somebody did NOT want that part of history to be revealed. Why? What were they hiding? His wife and kids perhaps? His stint in a rock’n’roll band? Hmmmm… Some POPE decided Mary Magdelane was a whore. Does the bible quote Christ as saying she was a whore? And in most of these stories, why is it usually a WOMAN’s fault? Eve, Delilah, Lot’s wife, etc. Seriously. We’re not getting the whole story on any of those stories. It IS a history book, but it’s not impartial, its telling of history is not complete, and it has been USED AS NEEDED by people, throughout the centuries, as a tool to substantiate arguments for a multitude of selfish agendas.
Is there value in reading, studying, and applying the lessons of the Bible to one’s life? SURE! Does it excuse the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson from their aboninable distortions? Not in MY opinion.. HECK no!
But I ramble. I should work.
By Scott
September 21, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Lozen - Good point. Human beings are capable of horrible things…such as
Nazi Germany - rounded up and exterminated millions of Jews, Christians, and secular folk who did not assimilate to their plan. Equal opportunity a-holes
Japan - In an effort to gain control of all of Asia, exterminated those Asian races (or attempted to) those they felt were inferior to the Japanese
America - regarded the arboriginal people of this continent as savages (and not just due to their lack of Christian beliefs) and decided it was okay to poach the natural environment and push them off their lands
Ancient Rome conquered most of the Western known world at the time, conscripting into Roman legions or enslaving much of the population indigenous to what we now know as Germany, Great Britain, Spain, and France, as well as much of the middle east and North Africa. They believed in many gods/goddesses, by the way.
Soviet Union conquered and assimilated much of Eastern Europe and attempted Afghanistan killing thousands in the process. They were decidedly atheistic, or at minimum secular.
Shall I go on?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
thoughts - if that were the case there’d still be prayer in schools. So many religions are respected and given just about anything wanted because it’s their rights and beliefs but christians are horrible people, or so the consensus seems to be today. (keep in mind I do not think that) I don’t get that.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Bruce, sometimes I have to be a smart mouth when things are getting boring. Besides I’ve learned from Taboga who is never anything but sarcastic! There’s no way we can throw anyone off this blog unless they use dirty language! I thought your little comment about nobody can understand what you and Randy understand unless they open their hearts was condescending, ya know? I don’t see how anybody with a brain can believe what you believe so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. And you’re a big guy; I have faith you can handle a little sarcasm.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
So Scott, do you think aliens who had never been brainwashed into christianity would consider christians superior in any way to any of the groups you brought up?
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
Well Lozen as we know from all of the very believable documentary movies (independence day, etc.) that aliens wouldn’t give a rats a$$ what religion we are.. they are going to blow us all to smitherines anyways. grin Just a little humor.
By Scott
September 21, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
Lozen - I find it interesting that you refer to Christians and “brainwashing” but don’t have the same questions about any other religious factions or any of the other groups I have mentioned. Seems somewhat inltolerant, but thats my opinion. Though I was remiss in not mentioning the ancient Egyptians, who believed in a poly-deistic worldview and had no problem enslaving races that differed or otherwise assimilated them.
If I had to guess, which is all I can do since I have no aliens to speak to, I would have to think, that given their technology and advancement, they would likely regard humans as inferior in general, regardless of our belief systems, seeing as we have not acheived interstellar flight on the scale they would be capable of to be here as well as countless other technological advancements.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
What exactly is the difference between today’s Muslim Terrorists and Christian history of the past, The Spanish Inquisition, for example, or the complete enslavement of Africa, based on the Africans being un-convertible, already content with their Islamic or animist religions?
The difference?
Then and now. I don’t give your rat’s behind what someone wrote about an “Inquisition* - hundreds of years ago! Muslims with explosives today - are just a teeny-weeny bit more threating than those books about supposed “Inquisitions”.
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
Yes, only the Jewish Spanish then and the Africans then would have been concerned.
But what is the difference? Period. Was that not the argument used for Christians should not be insulted? Muslim Terrorists?
By taboga
September 21, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Yet Muslims are feces for wanting to push their view on the world, yet Christians are to be considered honorable for their essentially wanting, and historically doing, the same thing.
Right, Tobago?
Thoughtless,
I would not be concerned in the least about who is or isn’t “honorable” in this regard. Nor am I concerned about what anyone may or may not have “historically” done. I am concerned about the here and now. And in the here and now (in which I live) - it is not the Christians who would love nothing more than to cut your head off with a rusty knife and while your eyes are still open like a catfish - watch you gasp for your last breath!
You need to get your head out of books, ideologies and philosophies of life - and take a good close look at what is really going on in the here and now!
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Okay Scott. I refer to christians and brainwashing because I was brought up in the south as a christian and I know how I was brainwashed. If I’d been brought up in Japan, Ancient Rome or Egypt I would know something about their brainwashing techniques because all children are brainwashed. Christians claim having the faith makes us better, more moral people. All I was trying to say is there is no evidence for that theory either! If christianity is so good at changing the hearts of men why have christians acted just like the Russian atheists, the German nazis, the whatever?
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
Notice most of the groups on that long list of Scott’s are either dead or put out of the ‘business’ of genocide . hmmmmm.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it redundant for Taboga to post he doesn’t give a rat’s a* about history and that his only concern is protecting his own little ratty a*?
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
Tobago,
funny that I work with and know many fundamentalist Christians who would gladly kill me for daring to think differently then they do. One would even destroy fully the states of California and Florida, for being filled with sinners and all.
so spare me.
I see and hear what is going on around me right here in America. From Christians.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this
Lozen,
Folks like me are trying to “protect” yours as well. You’re just too stupid to know it.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
Lozen - that’s not called brainwashing. There is a technical term that I learned in anthropology and I can’t remember it right off top of my head. When you were in school and taught that 2+2=4 is that brainwashing? By your definition, brainwashing is a very broad term and everything that parents teach is cnosidered brainwashing. I suppose that proper manners (thank you, your welcome, excuse me) are all brainwash terms? I’ve been directly hit by the affects of a cult and being raised christian is NOWHERE near brainwashing!
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
Taboga, if I had to depend on you to protect mine then I’d really be in trouble! I’ll take being called stupid by you as a compliment, you stupid twit.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
Thoughts - good thing they abide by the “thou shall not kill” commandment.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
funny that I work with and know many fundamentalist Christians who would gladly kill me for daring to think differently then they do.
Then why haven’t they done it?
You’ve just been taught this nonsense. You don’t know why you think it - you just know that you are supposed to so as to “fit in”.
By Scott
September 21, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
Lozen - That was kind of my point. It’s a matter of our point of view many times and our upbringing. Otherwise, why would there be seperate rules for a Roman “citizen” as opposed to one from one of the conquered lands? It seemed normal and natural to them, clearly. Sometimes our biases are a matter of point of view, either in accordance with or in spite of our upbringing, though obviously many people come to their own conclusions by converting to what seems to be the truth for them. In some cases that is a set of religious beliefs or none at all. Either way, it is a set of beliefs. Human beings are flawed, regardless of what anyone’s belief systems tell them the underlying cause for that may be. We are capable of great good or great evil, sometimes simultaneously depending on the observer. Christians are no better than any others if they are doing evil, neither are they better if they are doing good. They simply believe, as I am sure you remember from your brainwashing, that they are forgiven. That is not a license to do whatever you please or a coat of armor to keep from getting splattered if you do wrong, so to speak. Christians believe, and would do well to remember that, salvation is by faith alone and not by works, lest any should boast. Redemption from the Christian worldview is based solely on Christ’s works, for if they were left to work it out on their own, all would fall short of the Glory of God. Christ said “he who is without sin, cast the first stone” nobody could becasue they are all (Jew, Christian, Deist, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist) capable of evil. Why do Christians sometimes act as evil as anyone? Because they are human and humans are not capable of entirely good works anymore than anyone else
By lozen
September 21, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Scott, I’ll ask the question a different way: If believing in Jesus changes men’s hearts and makes them more moral and this country is founded on christianity (as christians believe), then why is the behavior of this country no different from that of Ancient Rome, ancient Egypt, etc. In other words, does christianity really do what christians claim it does, or is that just another fantasy?
By Renee
September 21, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
the fish are biting, look away from the bait
By taboga
September 21, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
the fish are biting, look away from the bait
Translation: Afraid.
By mit
September 21, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
LOL
taboga talking about believing something to “fit in”.
Don’t you know that you were “taught” christianity. Most people are one religion, the one they grew up with. And the churches are not asking for tax dollars for just katrina. they are asking for tax dollars for their own local engagments. feeding homeless, etc. It sounds ok, but then at the same time, did that church pay any taxes? NO So why should they get a refund? If thats the case, all non-profits should get tax dollars. Oh, but you wouldn’t like that since the non-profit could be placing foster childern in gay households.
By Scott
September 21, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
Lozen - Well, this country is neither 100% Christian nor is it just like Ancient Rome or Egypt. Those empires never adapted their view, simply imposed it. While this country used to live with slavery, it has since abolished it. While not all citizens of this country enjoyed the same rights and privleges in the beginning, they now do, though there are still some areas being addressed, such as gay marriage, etc (whether or not society makes that difficult is another discussion)
Those cultures were based on one way of thinking and one alone. No other was tolerated. In this country, you have the right to disagree, regardless of your point of view or who it offends. Americans are willing to fight, die, march, sit, legislate, litigate and speak out for your right and ability to do that, whether they agree with you or not.
This country was founded on the premise of freedom. The freedom to worship as you wish, speak as you wish, live as you wish, as long as it does not infringe upon the inherent rights of others. The blurring of that often comes when we mistake offense or disagreement with infringement. They are not the same.
As far as what Christianity does, my personal opinion is that the Christian faith can make astounding changes in the hearts of men and women. I am not going to waste your time with examples because it is my own personal experience, just as brainwashing seems to have been yours. But IMO, yes, in many cases it can.
By mit
September 21, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
Lozen,
No one has returned from the dead yet. so the answer to your question doesn’ exist.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this
Oh, but you wouldn’t like that since the non-profit could be placing foster childern in gay households.
You’re damn right I wouldn’t!
By lozen
September 21, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
Right Renee! Look away from the bait!
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Tobago,
no, I have been taught nothing in that regard, in fact I was raised to think Christianity was the only religion, period. All others were Of the Devil. I come from a very strongly Christian background. Oh, I am also mostly home-schooled/private Christian education, so spare me as well the ‘liberal education’ brainwashed me BS.
Comments, etc, from the ugly fundamentalists have taught me all of that. Directly. One even mentioned I need to be careful if anyone wearing a Phineas belt buckle approached me. I let him know my draw just might me quicker.
People do not often do things because they do not want to deal with the legal ramifications, not because they do not want to.
for example, I would like to do 90-100mph regularly, however the legal restrictions stop me. Not that I do not want to drive that fast as sometimes I do want to.
People do not always do what they would like to do. But some can jump up and down with Glee when a hurricane does the destruction of say Katrina.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
this country was founded by those being persecuted in their own land for their religious beliefs that happened to be christianity. Its always been my understanding that they founded this country as a place for anyone to come to avoid those persecutions. yet here we are again…fighting persecution for being christians in the country founded for freedom of religion.
What goes around comes around eh? We’ll be in another war between the states before you know it.
By mit
September 21, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
but you still think its ok for the church to get tax dollars when the church and the non-profit are doing the same community a service? hyp…oh i want spell it out for you, everyone here already knows.
And I hope you don’t read your bible as literally as you read this blog. You do seem a little confused though so… I don’t think ‘thoughts’ was meaning they would ACTUALLY kill him. Its called figuratively speaking.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
But some can jump up and down with Glee when a hurricane does the destruction of say Katrina.
The most juvenile and ridiculous thing stated on this board all week!
And that’s saying quite a lot - Lozen has been out here all this week!
By mit
September 21, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
BB, i hear you loud and clear. those christian death camps should be done away with. I mean dang, the pres can’t say who really told him to run for office. the churches have been bombed. and I heard that the general assembly here is banning the adoption of childern by christian couples.
so much persecution I just can see it i guess.
By mit
September 21, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
BB, i hear you loud and clear. those christian death camps should be done away with. I mean dang, the pres can’t say who really told him to run for office. the churches have been bombed. and I heard that the general assembly here is banning the adoption of childern by christian couples.
so much persecution I just can’t see it i guess.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this
thoughts - I’m sorry but that wasn’t christianity being taught to you.
By taboga
September 21, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Yes, dim-mit, I am saying that I would want the “Christians” to receive federal funding if they are assisting with the relief effort. And no, dim-mit, I see no purpose in funding Muslims OR Butt-plugs.
Muslims, because they’re aren’t but a handful HERE to support relief efforts in the DEEP SOUTH. And I don’t want the Butt-plugs raising children period - much less funding them to do so!
And yes dim-mit - I do discriminate! I don’t treat everyone the same - because everyone is not the same.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
Mit - yeah… ok. Can we say bitter? I can tell from everyone’s tolerant and understanding comments about christianity that we are all respected and understood. HELLO!?! so far today I’ve been told that all christians are condenscending, judgemental brainwashers.
I don’t know what the deal is with the banning of adoptions to gay couples but that is a SPECULATION of what MIGHT happen due to the fact that some lady is in a position now that she was somewhere else and that happened. I’m a CHRISTIAN and I am AGAINST that ban.
You can’t honestly sit there and believe in your little world that christians don’t get chastised and beat down to the ground because what we believe goes against everyone elses rights. Well what about MY rights as a christian?
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
Tobago, But some can jump up and down with Glee when a hurricane does the destruction of say Katrina
Weird isn’t it that I actually saw that with some coworkers, all smug that Katrina had destroyed a sinful place. One was literally jumping up and down with JOY.
BB - I was not raised fundamentalist, but began questioning it all when I was 8. My parents were overseas missionaries, and I saw too many good in other religions to accept their view. I was not until I moved to the South, that I ran into the fundie uglies, who actually have to gall to call themselves Christian.
Tobago - but go ahead and continue thinking that anyone who thinks differently than you is a Pinko Commie. Such limited labels from a limited person.
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this
thoughts - Yeah there are a lot of those as well. “fundie uglies, who actually have to gall to call themselves Christian.”
By buildingbridges
September 21, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
have a good evening everyone! - peace ;-)
By Netbanker
September 21, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
Everyone was playing so nicely today until Taboga showed up. His work is never done is it?
Sorry I missed the day…dang clients showing up for all day meetings.
By Thoughts
September 21, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
BB - at 8 y/o, I was comparing a Catholic Bible to a KJV Bible and realized it boiled down to “Man said God Said”.
and learned for some reason other religions did not even have the SingleGod concept. Then I realized that cultures create their religion and mankind had evolved from many gods to single God, per the First Commandment.
Came up with all that without the liberal education system. Imagine that, Tobago.
By lozen
September 21, 2005 05:16 PM | Link to this
BB, I really don’t want to pick on you; you seem like a nice person but… the people who “founded” this country? Are you talking about the Spanish who invaded Mexico (and California, Arizona, New Mexico, all that area was then Mexico) to convert the heathens and steal all their gold? Or are you talking about the Puritans who would have starved to death without the people who had already founded this country before they ever got here, and then turned around and murdered them for their land?
By taboga
September 22, 2005 07:38 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
I see the AJC is back on the “paper trail” nonsense. Again.
I can picture it now: Print device failures, paper jams, print queue’s locked-up, etc. - and all the so-called “officials” at the Democrat precincts, running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
And of course, we’ll hear about all the people who were “disenfranchised” because of the voting machine/print device failures. Democrats, needless to say.
And the best part about all of it? We are going to pay MILLIONS of dollars for all of this!
Lastly, let me ask one of you many genuises out here two questions:
First, if the electronic voting machine tabulated 10 votes for the horse and 8 votes for the cow, but the “paper trail” shows only 8 votes for each - how do you know which count is the right count?
Secondly, if a “paper trail” is what is wanted - then why bother with electronic voting machines period? Why not just go back to paper ballots altogether and be done with it?
By Brian Curtis
September 22, 2005 07:49 AM | Link to this
Another religious joke to start off the day:
As a man enters the doctor’s office, he passes a nun rushing out, wailing and sobbing. He asks the doctor, “What’s up with her?�
The doctor replies, “Oh, I just told her she’s pregnant.�
The man is shocked. “What? A nun, pregnant?�
The doctor just smiles. “No-�but it sure cured her hiccups, didn’t it?�
By taboga
September 22, 2005 07:58 AM | Link to this
Tobago - but go ahead and continue thinking that anyone who thinks differently than you is a Pinko Commie. Such limited labels from a limited person.
Thoughtless,
Let me explain how it works:
Everyone who disagrees with me is not a “Pinko Commie”, but I disagree with all “Pinko Commies” - like you.
See how easy that is to understand?
By Lyrazel
September 22, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
Do animals have souls? As we witness humanity in dire predicaments we see suffering, as well as compassion…but which photo pulls our heartstrings? A rotund lady walking through four feet of water with her posessions in a garbage bag or the photo of a dog wandering lost and emaciated? My guess is the opinion about soulessness of animals came up in periods of time when holy scripture was still being put together and the reasoning that animals did not have souls was given validity because of the lack of food and could be blamed for frequent famines and plagues. Starvation of animals was ok because there was not enough food and their death could be justified if animals were less. Humans needed livestock and slaughter was a part of life for most. Pets were allowed to the extremely wealthy…for hunting, and no pets were allowed for members of the church and only nobility could own hunting dogs. In Egyptian and other societies animals played a large role in religious ceremony and the only way to stop people worshiping the beasts was to say they were souless creatures… ah, but if animals can have souls can plants? Why do we think nothing but inconvience if a 200 year old trees are uprooted in storms? Can inanimate objects like cars/computers adopt souls of drivers/users? Adopt, spay, neuter and love…you have all been blessed…share your blessings and go hug a tree! Enjoy.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this
Yeah. The Democrats are grasping at straws. How can they win if dead people are unable to vote? Their party is imploding and it’s their fault. The only thing that will save them is to disassociate themselves from the Hollywood crowd, get rid of Kennedy and Biden and quit being such hypocrites. (IE. The confirmation of John Roberts) They should also try bringing forth some new ideas instead of bashing Bush. That is getting old and has been proven not to win elections.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel,
If trees do have souls - I hope all the Liberals don’t find out!
Can you imagine how much it would cost? Having all the trees removed from public property so as not to violate the Separation of Church and State, that is.
By Bruce
September 22, 2005 08:14 AM | Link to this
Sorry I had to leave yesterday so please let me catch up.
Lozen in reference to your 3:03 post. Yes I can handle a little sarcasm. The problem I have with accepting it from you is that when someone is sarcasic to you they are called intolerent. But as you said we agree to disagree.
Kimberly in reference to your 2:59 post. If you believe the Bible is mostly true do you believe the stories about the second part of Christ life?
Back to you Lozen, at 3:25 you wrote:
Okay Scott. I refer to christians and brainwashing because I was brought up in the south as a christian and I know how I was brainwashed.
I guess the beliefs you have now are something to actually thought of all by yourself and they are brand new. You were the first one to think of it, right? You are just brainwashed by some other group, but you are still brainwashed.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
All kidding aside though.
Just a friendly reminder to all you Democrats out there: You only have just a little over 3 years to get your voter ID so that you can vote for Hillary in 2008.
If you can’t figure out how to obtain one (understandable), just ask the first illegal immigrant that you come across, to help you…
By Lyrazel
September 22, 2005 08:27 AM | Link to this
…p**…tobago want to buy a copy of the 10 commandments…guaranteed original courthouse hung… Ever wonder how much money is spent on the issue of separation of church and state? Like have we ever seen a non-religious candidate for political office? Is having church-faith manditory for politicians in this country? Would we elect an atheist president who is a SOB divorced 6 times and late on alimony but tells the truth and is not funded by special interest groups? Do we as voters WANT the truth…or do we want warm & fuzzy candidates who look good? Will we ever stop electing PARTY members for independent candidates or do lobbyists control most of politics and we just get to vote on who they want?
By chuck
September 22, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this
Thoughts, some definitions for you:
fundamental n. 1 Something that is an essential or necessary part of a system or object. adj 2: being or involving basic facts or principles; “the fundamental laws of the universe”.
fun·da·men·tal·ism n. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles.
If beliefs are “fundamental” or ESSENTIAL to a system, doesn’t it make sense that true believers would adhere to them rigidly? The people you talked about don’t sound like Christians to me. Finding glee in the death of anyone, whether it is a non-believer or a murderer is not Christian. Those are NOT the FUNDAMENTAL beliefs on which Christianity was founded. That does not mean however that it is wrong to put a murderer to death if prescribed by the courts and the laws of the land. That also does not preclude the possibility that some of the deaths in hurricane (of both non-believers and Christians who have fallen back into sin)were punishment. I cannot say for sure that either is the case, but it is certainly in the realm of possibility. In any event, those are not the things that Christians should find joy in. If anything, we should be remorseful that we didn’t do more to reach them BEFORE Katrina.
By Lyrazel
September 22, 2005 08:46 AM | Link to this
chuck…what is the difference between fundamentalist belief and orthodox beliefs? Prior planning prevents poor performance—the elements of graphic design and print Sin had nothing to do with Katrina and nothing to do with who got out and who stayed home..sorry, I have studied plagues too long and that rhetoric has been used since…o a long long long time…we have fairy tales based on such punishment: Aseop: Ant and Grasshopper…. Tobago: Hillary is a loose canon candidate…she wont run./wont be offered a VP either..look toward the west for the next candidates for dems…and republicans….McCain and some midwestern tri-state governor…for republicans… Jeb…wont run either. His downfall was Shievo.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel,
There is a contagious disease out there called: Religiousitis.
When contracted, this disease prevents people from being able to see. It prevents those who are infected with it from seeing that religious groups are no different than any other group - no better, no worse. Religious-itis causes people to think that all groups are welcome in the arena of ideas except religious groups.
Religiousitis is brought about by: First Amendmentitis. First Amendmentitis is an illusionary illness, causing those who suffer from it to imagine things in the U.S. Constitution that are not really there. Those who have been exposed to FA, believe in the illusion of: “Separation of Church and State”.
The illusion of “Separation of Church and State”, contracted through FA, will, over time, cause severe deterioration of human brain cells - leading to the eventual contraction of Religiousitis.
Religiousitis will soon be cured. Religious groups are growing more and more intolerant of the decadence caused by Religiousitis and are slowly banning together to destroy this cancerous disease. The negative side effects of the cure are yet to be determined.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this
Well. No one took my bait. I tried to stir up the blog. Guess everyone agrees.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this
Jack,
Many are still trying to figure out what you meant. New ideas? When you threw that in there - it was the stumper!
Leftists believe that Bush-bashing IS a “new idea”.
Libs,
Do any of you post on democraticunderground…? The reason I ask, is that it is hard for me to believe that those posts are coming from real people! It makes me wonder if a couple of guys started a website for comedy and are out there posting back and forth to one another under different names…
Can one of you “intellectuals” out here verify the authenticity of that site for me. Thanks in advance.
By mit
September 22, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
BB,
Name me one right you have lost as a christian. I can’t think of anyway rights that I have and you don’t. I am not bitter, the word persecution in my eyes is the holocaust or the spanish inquistion. something of that sort. I don’t see any christians being tortured or burned at the stake for what they believe. So to say that christians are being persecuted in this country is just a outlandish statment with nothing to back it up with. I don’t see the gays of this country being persecuted either but they would have alot more to whine about than any ‘christian’.
taboga, you always resort to name calling when you are gotten the better of don’t you. and you still don’t understand that the federal funding is not for just katrina and you stupidly seem to think that only christians live in the ‘deep south’. Its New Orleans, I would suspect there are alot more voodoo believes down there, wouldn’t you? then the feds should start giving them money right?
By Sandy/Sanhan
September 22, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this
Just thought I’d share a couple of thoughts. If the framers of our government wanted it to be a theocracy, surely they would have made it so. My guess is that our framers wished to avoid the abuses of forced religion, and used restraint at both ends: understanding that religion and faith are part of peoples’ lives, they left their options open to see whether a government and nation can succeed without forcing religion onto its citizens. It’s all about balance and restraint.
As far as faith-based initiatives, Bush and Company have made it clear that they believe that smaller government is better while attempting to bankrupt the government, and that faith based organizations are better at providing relief and services. Harken back to Bush’s school vouchers programs, and it seems that giving up on the public school system to promote private and faith-based schools fits nicely into this scheme, mirroring the destruction of Social Security. Don’t push science or math on kids, don’t fund NCLB, and you can see the reactionary response to the “liberal education” in America. You can also see that we are falling behind academically and intellectually.
If you’re going to make poverty a crime, what better way to make your case than to invoke the ever popular Christian religion while completely deconstructing what its founder taught?
The conservatives want no restrictions on trade, pollution, or anything to do with free enterprise and making money, even if it is destructive to not just the Americans, but globally; at the same time they want subtle and not so subtle restrictions regarding the separation of church and state. There is a moral disconnect here, desperately in need of balancing. One wonders if their belief in the destruction of Revelations and End Times has consciously become their formula for government, or if it is merely a self-fullfilling prophecy.
By buildingbridges
September 22, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
Lozen - thanks for thinking I seem like a nice person. I like to think I’m pretty nice. I don’t ever like hurting anyone’s feelings if you can’t tell by the many “sorry’s” you see from me. lol
I know I probably shouldn’t answer because your response sounded a lot like bait and you have a knack for putting a negative spin on every little detail you pick up (maybe playing devils advocate?) ;-). I meant the one’s that constructed the constitution, the one’s that founded this country (this country being the United States of America) which you already knew is what I meant. I certainly don’t advocate what happened with the natives here….. No one has ever founded or invaded a country without bloodshed which you also know. Is it fair? no, but what is? according to some people, ‘alls fair in love and war’
By Lyrazel
September 22, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this
Jack, Politics just makes this little old lady spit with her wig in a twist. Kerrys whole campaign was: vote for me because I am not Bush. Duh? Like thats a reason to qualify someone for presidency? It seemed so ludicrous to me that I had to seek independent candidates just to vote against BOTH parties. I think Dems are just spinning wheels and just as guilty as Reps for being stupid about what is truely important to Americans…lost in their wealth…So far we have discovered how cronyism and special interest are allowed command over…are dems any better? You want to stir up debate: has anyone been keeping up with the amount of real estate being claimed along NO and the gulf? New re-zoning plans for poor neighborhoods under that new Eminant Domain law conveniently passed by our Supreme Court…who stands a chance these days…IS capitalism… the god we serve and obey?
By buildingbridges
September 22, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this
Mit - look up persecution, then we’ll talk.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
Tobago,
Thanks for clarifying. You now considered me Pinko Commie, yet nothing in my posts indicated anything of the sort. I simply implied payback for years of Christian suppression of others can be a b***, heh? What goes around comes around. Just do not know why anyone is so surprised over Muslim Terrorism.
Like I said, simple labels from simple minded people like yourself.
And the State of Israel itself was founded on terrorism. Look at Menachem(sp?) Begin’s history.
Those who have been exposed to FA, believe in the illusion of: “Separation of Church and State�.
Are you referring as well to the illusion of references to God written throughout the Constitution? More of your Special Decoder Ring?
Chuck - Yeah, I do not consider them Christian, consider them ugly desert dwellers.
By buildingbridges
September 22, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
Actually y’all are going to have to do without me today. I’m sick, grumpy and don’t want to make anyone upset so I’ll catch ya’ll tomorrow. :)
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
MIT,
Confront Tab with a logical arguement; he will be childish and sarcastic.
Stump him, and he will run away for a while.
Pose a direct question; he will ignore you, and begin baiting a new topic.
He is totally unable to start a topic and stay on point. This grandious behaviour is common in kids who feel they do not measure up to those around {hence the hate for educated people}; so I am thinking he is either an emotionally/mentally damaged man/woman who feels that since no one has shown love for him (can you image what family structure would produce such hate?); he will get the world back by showing no love.
If his only BOND with others is this blog, which I believe we ALL can suspect; I say let him have it - everyone needs interaction with people. It is too bad when it is a sick routine though. Hoping he gets healthy one day is all we can do.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel. Yes it sucks that when voting we have to choose the lesser of the evils. Those that passed eminent domain should be drawn & quartered.
By mit
September 22, 2005 09:50 AM | Link to this
Persecution: noun: punishment or harassment usually of a severe nature on the basis of race, religion, or political opinion in one’s country of origin.
here’s the definition. Notice the words severe nature. Now, give me an example of your persecution in this country for being christian.
I am not trying to be mean here. I just don’t see the causes for being disgruntled for christians or any other religion in this country. however, I do see it for being gay or black.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
taboga, you always resort to name calling when you are gotten the better of don’t you. and you still don’t understand that the federal funding is not for just katrina and you stupidly seem to think that only christians live in the ‘deep south’. Its New Orleans, I would suspect there are alot more voodoo believes down there, wouldn’t you? then the feds should start giving them money right?
Mit,
I don’t “resort” to name calling - I start out doing it. And it is true that some may have gotten the “better of” me over the years - but it certainly wasn’t by any silly jack-a*******es like you…
And I don’t think that anyone on the planet thinks that ONLY christians live in the deep south, but that any rational person (Liberals not withstanding) would conclude that the overwhelming vast majority ARE Christians. And within the context for which i was referring - the statement was totally applicable.
And oh, I will make a deal with you. I want call you names anymore. Just infer them from any post I make to you. That’s my version of “Compassionate Conservatism”.
By lozen
September 22, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
If trees do have souls - I hope all the Liberals don’t find out! Can you imagine how much it would cost? Having all the trees removed from public property so as not to violate the Separation of Church and State, that is.
It never ceases to amaze me how stupid some humans can be!
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this
There’s ol’ FootMouse back at it again. “Logical arguments”? What are you referring to - Floating Houses or your whining and moaning about your cat?
Tell you what FootMouse, you and those other two clowns; Mit and Thoughts, put your collective intellect (intellect used with extreme caution) and come up with some “logical arguments” and I will be happy to debate you.
Of course I am not holding my breath however…
By mit
September 22, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this
so since the ‘deep south’ is a majority of christians then you think the slight minority of non-christians should be cast aside? give all the federal dollars only to christians and to hell with everyone else.
that makes alot of sense, thanks for setting me straight
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this
MIT
Feeling ‘persecuted’ goes with the territory, and even has Biblical roots. If the religion, in this case Christianity, is not feeling ‘persecuted’, they feel they have failed in their religion. Look at the ‘right believers’ in the past, the Anabaptists, Waldenses, Martin Luther followers, etc. I have an expansive history book, written by a religious group, that details them all.
So I actually think we, us alledged persecutors, should be thanked for making it all possible. So they can end up with a persecution complex.
In the same way all the Wicked people should be thanked. If all peoples were righteous Christians, it would defeat Biblical “prophecy”. I am just waiting for one to hazen Armageddon. It is coming. The man-made hazening.
By mit
September 22, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this
lol at taboga.
giving federal funding to all religions, not just one: logical giving federal funding to none of them: logical giving federal funding to only one: illogical
so whose arguments are logical and whose are illogical.
By Curious
September 22, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
I wonder…
What would happen if every single person on this blog completely ignored Taboga’s posts today?
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this
And here I had declined from posting “If I wanted to ‘fit in’, all I would have to be is a Gestapo Boy like Tobago”. This is the archaic, primitive South, after all. Yeah, they got the intanet and all but still a less progressive area of the country
shame on me.
We would not want Tobago to hold his tongue, would we? He is such a Splendid example of the oxymoron Compassionate Conservatism.
By Renee
September 22, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this
Curious I think you are on to something.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this
Curious - why just today? Good thought. LOL
He’s like a Smoker anyway, a dying breed, like our current neo-con administration.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this
lol at taboga.
giving federal funding to all religions, not just one: logical giving federal funding to none of them: logical giving federal funding to only one: illogical
so whose arguments are logical and whose are illogical.
I am still waiting for you to make one…
By lozen
September 22, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this
Thoughts, how’d ya get to be so smart? And Mit you are so right. I do not see any persecution of christians but they talk about it all the time. Because, as you say, they have a persecution complex that goes way back to the persecution of the Hebrews in the old testament and the persecution of early christianity by the Romans. Nobody is persecuting christians! Is it true that churches pay no property tax? And that they don’t have to pay SS or insurance or any benefits for their workers?
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
I wonder…
What would happen if every single person on this blog completely ignored Taboga’s posts today?
Curious,
I wonder…
What would happen if any single person actually paid attention to any of yours?
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Is it true that churches pay no property tax? And that they don’t have to pay SS or insurance or any benefits for their workers?
Right. It’s the other part of that “Separation of Church and State” that you rubes are so fond of…
By chuck
September 22, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this
Lozen, I see the difference between orthodoxy and fundamentalism as this: Orthodoxy is based on TRADITION.
or·tho·dox adj. Adhering to the accepted or traditional and established faith, especially in religion. Adhering to the Christian faith as expressed in the early Christian ecumenical creeds. Orthodox Adhering to what is commonly accepted, customary, or traditional: an orthodox view of world affairs.
Fundamentalism is based on CORE BELIEFS derived from Scripture itself.
If you look at what most of you refer to as fundamentalism, based on the definition I posted earlier, you would see that those people are not fundamentalists in that sense of the word at all. They have essentially taken scripture and changed it to fit their pre-conceived notion of what the truth SHOULD be in their minds. While I believe in a literal interpretation of the Word of God, that interpretation HAS TO BE DONE IN CONTEXT. It would take days for me to explain this concept in detail, so I’m not going to attempt that. Instead, I’ll give you a couple of examples, one of them absurd:
Here is essentially what some of the “so-called” fundamentalists do. There are to verses in the Bible that say the following: In John, “Judas went out and hanged Himself” and in Luke, “Go thou and do likewise”. The people you are talking about take verses out of context of the entire Word and use them to mean what they want them to mean. When I was young, they used a verse in Corinthians that says, “Does not even nature itself teach you that it is a shame for a man to have long hair?” If you go back and read that verse in CONTEXT, you will see that the passage is dealing with men who had taken a Nazarite vow, part of which was to not cut their hair, thus symbolizing the vow they had taken. The problem was that the vow also included a number of restrictions on their lifestyles as well and the people spoken of in the verse were violating those portions of the vow, but giving the outward appearance that they were keeping the vow. THAT was the shame. The walk and the talk did not match up. That didn’t keep pastors of churches from using the verse to beat me over the head because I wore my hair longer than they liked. (Yes Lozen, I was a hippie AND a Young Republican).
Getting back to the difference between orthodoxy and fundamentalism, Orthodoxy is based on tradition, and many of those traditions of the early church are found NOWHERE in scripture. The idea of having a POPE for instance. Jesus is the head of the Christian church, not a Pope. In my view, a fundamentalist, BASED ON THAT EARLIER DEFINITION THAT I POSTED, is a good thing. One who takes his faith seriously and does not compromise on the doctrines of that faith.
As for Sandy, you have an extremely warped opinion of the founders that is based solely on how you want things to be and not on what they wrote in the Constitution. Just as I believe in the literal interpretation of scripture IN CONTEXT, I also believe it is vitally important that we read the Constitution in the same way. The only way we can protect our freedoms as Americans is to put Justices on the Supreme Court and in the Federals court system that hold a strict constructionist view of the constitution. I think that Liberals of all people should want this. If we ended judicial activism, the American peple would have to come to agreement on what we want our country to stand for. These issues would be settled in the marketplace of ideas and NOT in the courts.
We have adopted a mentality that if ANY issue comes up and we disagree with the outcome, we take it to court. We have allowed UNELECTED lifetime appointed judges to make laws for us and they have done so on BOTH sides of most issues. Wouldn’t it be better if we solved these issues through ELECTED officials like we did with the 13th,14th, and 15th amendments that righted the wrongs of slavery?
As for your diatribe on our educational system, I wish you would actually check your facts concerning how we educate our children. The reason our system appears to be inferior is precisely related to what our version of democracy has become. We have to treat everyone FAIRLY, which means exactly the same…ostensibly. We don’t do that, however. Look at just ONE of the constraints that we operate under…the ADA. I have one student in a wheel chair who has her own paraprofessional. This parapro travels from class to class with this student who has cerebral palsey and does everything for that student, including most of her work. We pay this parapro $20,000 or so a year to do this. By contarst, I got a total of $75.00 to spend on Social Studies for the 150 other students that I teach. It is a ridiculous use of limited resources. I love my little cerebral palsey student, but I can’t justify using those kinds of resources on a student who for all practical purposes will never be a productive citizen in a practical sense of the word. I don’t know what the solution to that problem is, but it IS a PROBLEM.
Then couple the ADA, with the concept of UNIVERSAL education and we have a mess to contend with that the other industrialized countries don’t have. We teach EVERYONE and test everyone. Most of the other countries syphon off less capable students to vocational programs and only test the cream of the crop students who are in college prep schools for these national comparisons. If you look at state to state comparisons, the picture of Georgia’s educationaal system is skewed also. We test everyone with the SAT regardless of diploma track. Many other states only give the SAT or ACT to students in college prep tracks. The issue is much more complex than the few examples I’ve listed here, but the discrepancies you speak of are failry easily explained with a little research.
By lozen
September 22, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
No, we don’t want ToeBooger to keep quiet! He’s such a perfect example of that redneck, uneducated, mean assed conservative who is so ignorant he thinks he’s smart. I have known many of these people in my life and as long as they have no power they are just laughable to most of us. Anyone who knows anything, has any education, thinks for themselves at all sees exactly how laughable these cretins are. He’s not the only one though; there are lots of ToeBoogers out there so everybody, be careful out there and remember “Never forget what great horrors are possible when you get a large group of stupid people working together.”
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this
Yes, ignore Toober-face. He reminds me of a bad case of poison ivy. Just when you think he’s gone, more itchy bumps. Resist the urge to scratch. Ignore and refocus. Calamine lotion, anyone?
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
Have you heard?
McDonald’s is giving away free apple pies to any Liberal that can understand the meaning of:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…
Mit, Thoughts, Lozen, FootMouse, or any of you other rubes care to take a shot at it?
By chuck
September 22, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this
two not to verses
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
*“Never forget what great horrors are possible when you get a large group of stupid people working together.�8
A Democrat party will emerge…
By Just Being Me
September 22, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this
Good idea, Curious.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
Curious,
Now do you see - they can’t help themselves!
Kimberly,
You left off one. You’re supposed to end your drivel with: Anyone? Anyone?
By Just Being Me
September 22, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
LOL Kimberly
By Tim
September 22, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
I don’t have time to figure out Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…
besides the apple pies are 2 for 99 cents anyway… when they start giving away free milk shakes let me know
By Tim
September 22, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this
oh and the apple pie thingys at Taco Bell are soooooo much better than the ones at McDonalds
By mit
September 22, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
so you’re saying you can read plain english.
taboga, its boring debating a complete moron.
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
Bruce, yes I believe in Christ, and I think the stories written about him are based in fact. But if a handful of your college buddies write down some stories about stuff you did when you were with them, would I read them and know everything there is to know about you? Of course not. And would every word of it be completely accurate? Let’s hope not! Haha..
The bible, as a work of history, is scattered, incomplete, and biased. (Are women really the root of all evil? REALLY?) We know this collection was assembled, edited, and re-assembled by people who gained power by controlling people in the name of God. The Bible is now, and has always been used as a TOOL by people whose agenda is less than Christ-like. Yes, I think it is “The Word.” But I do not think it’s the ONLY word, nor will it prove to be the last word… IMO.
By mit
September 22, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
so you’re saying you can’t read plain english.
taboga, its boring debating a complete moron.
By Lyrazel
September 22, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
This parapro travels from class to class with this student who has cerebral palsy Like you begrudge her, Chuck? If your child was paraplegic and needed someone you would be there as a concerned father getting her the same kind of help! I am certain of that. Lets not condem the condemned to misery…or do you feel these paraplegics should be put in a place and locked up so they dont affect normal kids? *I can’t justify using those kinds of resources on a student who for all practical purposes will never be a productive citizen in a practical sense * Ever hear of Steven Hawking, Chuck? What about FDR?
By Just Being Me
September 22, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
Hey Kimberly, where does the Bible say that women are the root of all evil???
Tim, everyone says how much better the Taco Bell apple things are. I hate those thingys! Much prefer the McD’s apple pie. But, the Yogurt Parfait is to die for!!!!! :-)
By Jack
September 22, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this
I doubt Tab is uneducated.
By Tim
September 22, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this
JBM… I don’t like yorgurt… give me the artery cloggers lol :)
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this
JBM, I wasn’t quoting. That is the underlying message I get from the stories I read, mostly OT. You know, it’s EVE’s fault about the fruit (not actually an apple, rather, the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.) Where was Adam? Why was she out walking alone? Was he being all clammed up when she wanted to talk? Was he watching the game? How did the serpent-beast-thing get to her in the first place? I’m not saying she was framed, you know, but I am saying the possibility isn’t really discussed and maybe it should be. I’m just sayin’. Also, Sampson and Delilah… The woman who allegedly demanded John the Baptist’s head (as if a man never takes out a contract hit). It seems the only women who receive any kind of praise in that book are the ones who sacrifice themselves completely. While MEN are praised for being war-mongers and having dozens of wives. I’m just sayin’.
By mit
September 22, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this
JBM,
I don’t think the bible actually says women are the root of all evil. it just implies it.
there was no existence of evil until eve took the apple. therefore, one can say, hey we were just fine and dandy until some female came along and messed it all up.
other note: I have never receieved a good answer for this. maybe here I will get more than one.
so the flood covered the entire earth. noah rounded up all the animals on put them on the ark. how did he get all the species of animals seen today? So how did bison survive, native to north america which we all know noah was not close to the americas. and how many years have passed since the flood? 5000 years is the most I have heard but the math doesn’t add up. Take elephants, (slow reproducers) the numbers there are today (even after poaching) would not add up being that there were just 2 on the ark 5000 years ago. Then you would HAVE TO believe in evolution for all the elephant species we see today. Chuck answer please, you seem the most logical answerer. and you said you take the bible word for word.
By mit
September 22, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this
oh, and why would he save mosquitoes? I mean dang, let them go.
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah.
Tabs other tactic for evading a losing arguement is to say he does not understand what your saying; although the people he calls idiots understand it fine…
He repeats that he does not understand normal english; where-as I have yet to see any of the slowest bloggers to state ignorance so frequently.
By chuck
September 22, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel, If you actually read my post you would have seen that I admitted not having a solution for that problem. As I said, I really do love this little girl. She has a wonderful personality and never complains about her lot in life.
That is not the point. How can we justify this spending in light of how limited our resources are? We have to educate ALL of our children. We spend 53 times the amount of money to educate her in Social Studies than we do the other 150 students I teach. Even a touchy feely Liberal like you ought to be able to understand the problem with that. I don’t have enough textbooks to issue one to each of my students, and we can’t buy any because we don’t have the funds, yet we spend $20,000 on ONE STUDENT. It just is not a good use of our resources. I know that sounds harsh, but that is the reality. How would you solve it?
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
Mit, the world was flat back then, wasn’t it? Haha.. There are other historical and geological references to a great flood in ancient times. To the one writing about it, it may well have been “the whole world.” But in light of fossils that have been discovered since, it’s probably more likely that it was just a big-a— flood, and that Noah guy was probably an aminal lover who managed to save a bunch of furry critters from drowning. Stories are embellised in the re-telling. How would he have known ahead of time there would be a great flood? Some people know things they have “no way of knowing.” Seen it. It happens. Probably “a God thing.”
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this
Well while we are at ‘explanations, please’ IF the Jewish/Christian explanation for the beginning is so accurate/valid, how on earth did all the Hindus, Buddhists, Mayans, Southwest American Indians, etc etc etc get off on such “bizarre”, to the Judeo/Christian concepts, tangents?
A tribe in the lower Grand Canyon has FOUR heaven-levels, not just one, for example. Sounds better doesn’t it? Count them, FOUR heavens.
And why on earth were those people even building a golden calf when Moses was up on the mountain? Sounds like a religious-consolidation, when you get down to it. “Thou Shalt have no other gods before me” sounds like there are a slew of them out there. Why have many when you can consolidate?
Maybe as cultures evolved they needed fewer gods?
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this
Random post:
I still like the idea that JW is the anti-crist.
Think about it; the first incarnation was his father, providing about 7 years of good economic times. And then comes the devil incarnate, his son, with 7 years for war and death!
He preaches christian ideals while removing fundimental ideas (err on side of life; but not for those people, or those…or those there too).
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this
Chuck, maybe you could afford text books if the wealthiest two percent of Americans weren’t enjoying MASSIVE tax cuts in a time of war and spiraling deficit, at the expense of the rest of us, and of the public good in general. Our government borrows money from China EVERY DAY. Maybe you could write to the Chinese and ask for a few buck for text books.
By Just Being Me
September 22, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
I understand Kimberly. I don’t agree, but I understand.
By mit
September 22, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this
There are raft trips down the grand canyon that teach you how the great flood carved the canyon out. therefore, the flood is seen as an earth covering flood. no question about that.
god told him about it and told him what to build, dimensions and all.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
Republicans bad-mouthing The Anti-Christ? who could have guessed?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20050922.shtml
By chuck
September 22, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
mit,
I don’t have time to answer all of your questions today. the following was just copy and pasted from an article that I will post the url to so you can go and read it in its entirety if you really want to know the answers, but it does address some of your questions:
*The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep.
If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. Even if a million insect species had to be on board, it would not be a problem, because they require little space. If each pair was kept in cages of 10 cm (four inches) per side, or 1000 cm3, all the insect species would occupy a total volume of only 1000 m3, or another 12 cars. This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food, Noah’s family and ‘range’ for the animals. However, insects are not included in the meaning of behemah or remes in Genesis 6:19-20, so Noah probably would not have taken them on board as passengers anyway.
Tabulating the total volume is fair enough, since this shows that there would be plenty of room on the Ark for the animals with plenty left over for food, range etc. It would be possible to stack cages, with food on top or nearby (to minimize the amount of food carrying the humans had to do), to fill up more of the Ark space, while still allowing plenty of room for gaps for air circulation. We are discussing an emergency situation, not necessarily luxury accommodation. Although there is plenty of room for exercise, skeptics have overstated animals’ needs for exercise anyway.
Even if we don’t allow stacking one cage on top of another to save floor space, there would be no problem. Woodmorappe shows from standard recommended floor space requirements for animals that all of them together would have needed less than half the available floor space of the Ark’s three decks. This arrangement allows for the maximum amount of food and water storage on top of the cages close to the animals.
Food requirements The Ark would probably have carried compressed and dried foodstuffs, and probably a lot of concentrated food. Perhaps Noah fed the cattle mainly on grain, plus some hay for fibre. Woodmorappe calculated that the volume of foodstuffs would have been only about 15 % of the Ark’s total volume. Drinking water would only have taken up 9.4 % of the volume. This volume would be reduced further if rainwater was collected and piped into troughs.
Excretory requirements It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (plenty of water around!) or destroyed by vermicomposting (composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (e.g. sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour.
Hibernation The space, feeding and excretory requirements were adequate even if the animals had normal day/night sleeping cycles. But hibernation is a possibility which would reduce these requirements even more. It is true that the Bible does not mention it, but it does not rule it out either. Some creationists suggest that God created the hibernation instinct for the animals on the Ark, but we should not be dogmatic either way.
Some skeptics argue that food taken on board rules out hibernation, but this is not so. Hibernating animals do not sleep all winter, despite popular portrayals, so they would still need food occasionally.*
As for movement of animals from one continent to another, Migration of people along with domesticated animals and migrations of animals themselves would explain that.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this
Mit. Back then all of the continents were touching. Bats need something to eat too. LOL
By raylene
September 22, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
hmmm………..
By Jack
September 22, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
Hey Raylene! Where have you been?
By raylene
September 22, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this
i was in california
By chuck
September 22, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this
BTW mit, We seem to have this discussion about every 3-4 months on this blog when the topics get boring and everybody says the same thing over and over again. The non-believers of the militant variety are never going to convince me, and I am never going to convince them, so it really becomes a “p*ing contest” that really accomplishes nothing. It isn’t even a real good intellectual exercise because I have faith in God and they have faith in science…we just aren’t going to agree when our faiths are so divergent.
By Greg
September 22, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this
If aid should not be tied to sharing any religious viewpoint, what was John Travolta doing in Louisiana? And the baseball caps — what’s up with that? By the way - women are not the root of all evil … the love of money (greed) is. Wasn’t it Adam who listened to Eve, and did what she suggested? What was he thinking???
By Curious
September 22, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
I wonder if Diane and Shaunti realize how much they suck this week?
By raylene
September 22, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this
this topic is really pointless. i know that has been covered, but i wasnt here all week…. and i don’t really feel like reading the whole thing. so what is the new topic?
By Jack
September 22, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
Men often get into trouble because of woman.
By raylene
September 22, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
oh. well maybe… men ususally get in trouble because they are men.
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this
Jack, women often get into trouble because of men. Need PROOF? Poll the current US prison population. What percentage of the male population do you think are there because a woman incited, encouraged, or bullied them into committing their crimes. Now poll the women. Heh… Every woman’s story contains therein the words, “I loved him.”
Maybe it’s just LOVE that’s the root of all evil. New topic? Just asking.
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this
How about people get in trouble because they are people? And as long as they can shilt the responsibility to someone else - they will; until they hit rock bottom.
The poetic justice is in using that tactic, they are assured their mistakes will be repeated. So, any grief transferred to the scapegoat is temporary (less they choose to hang on to it - which is another wonderful avoidance tactic!); where the person in denial creates everlasting personal grief.
Tab is our local iconic example of these measures.
By SUZAN
September 22, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
it is indeed sad when people are so afraid of God that they try and hide under the blanket of political correctness and goverment/state seperation of church.
This country will never be a theocracy with regards to God fearing religions but regarding the religion of atheism and political correctness (instead of truth) we have already reached a point of theocracy. this is indeed sad as it will eventually kill my rights to worship freely. we know that the goal of these orginizations (ACLU etc) is to completely eradicate all mention of any god from all life. this then is the real evil in life not christians offering to pray with people or offering salvation but rather this nothingness that the aclu and atheist would have us live under. the yoke of silence
By raylene
September 22, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
love is evil! so true
By Jack
September 22, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
Love is also blind.
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
SUZAN,
NOTHING is more detrimental to christian faith than organized religion. It is also warned in the bible of people CLAIMING to be speaking the word of god as being the most feared - so if you are looking for APOCOLIPTIC signs, look IN the church.
Someone posed the question earlier: What rights have I or you lost regarding your freedom of religion and practicing it?
I can absolutely confirm that I have not lost a singe religious freedom - but have lost freedoms due to relion. We can pose that question next!
By taboga
September 22, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
Tabs other tactic for evading a losing arguement is to say he does not understand what your saying; although the people he calls idiots understand it fine…
FootMouse,
Of you all understand each other. It’s that “Birds of a feather” thing…
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Um, but as far as communicating goes; all birds chirp and other birds get their drift - minus the ignorant ones that have social defects: And they get trown out of the nest early on, as should have happend to you; then, like the birds, we would not have to carry fools like you on societies back.
I think I can hear you whining;)
Fun stuff poking at you - never fail to get a response that further shows your stupidity!
By raylene
September 22, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
hey i thought of an interesting topic. that shouldnt get religion invovled. i hope….
should schools make a second-language class mandatory? ex: spanish, french…
By Sandy/Sanhan
September 22, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
Chuck, if my views seem warped, envision a plant growing in a glass box: I think the constitution is a living document, that growth and change are an integral part of the whole concept; I think our founders saw that too, but had no clue how strongly technology would affect social policies. I also believe the same thing about God and faith, that we’re supposed to grow and evolve along with our conception of God.
As for our educational system, in some ways it has changed very little since the industrial revolution, when it was assumed that students would be tracked: we would need to have some fail and tracked to become factory workers, not thinkers, while others would be sent to college, etc. Older school buildings reflect this, some actually looking like factories… Part of education is socialization, which itself is not an entirely bad thing, as it is how children are taught to work with others. That we have cultural diversity is a result of our nation’s success, but at the educational level, we treat this like a detriment.
Using neighborhood tax bases ensures that poor neighborhoods get fewer resources, perpetuating poverty in those places, making profound personal and familial changes more difficult.
I disagree that treating everyone fairly is the same as treating them the same. Obviously, some students need more resources than others, just as some people have different medical needs, or different economic issues. My point is that we need to gear education to the people receiving it. I know it’s complex, but giving high performing schools or students a lion’s share of the resources when they’re already a ahead of the curve punishes the poorer performing, and keep them poorer.
As far as judicial activism, the conservative supreme court judges are more likely to legislate than the moderates or liberals. That Clarence Thomas benefited from affirmative action and now wants to dismantle it is rather telling.
As far as Georgia schools, after 5 years of living there, my husband and I moved my family back to upstate New York, at significant personal sacrifice. In Brighton, even many republicans agree that cutting town taxes and negatively affecting our schools is a bad idea.
Thanks for the food for thought regarding international comparisons. Some day I will look into it, but that day is not today, as I must cease blogging and start working.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
The problem is this:
Men marry women hoping they won’t change. Women marry men hoping they will change.
That’s why they go for the “bad” boys.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
Congratulations FootMouse!
I wasn’t aware that human beings could communicate with birds so as to know whether they are “getting the drift” from other birds.
What are you doing wasting your vast talents out here with us mere mortals? You’ve discovered an entirely new branch of ornithology and you need to be out their teaching this stuff - Rockin’ Robin…!
By ASHLEY
September 22, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
Religion should take back over. Men need to be back in charge. Women need to be back in the house running the family, cooking, and doing things for her husband. Political correctness needs to go out the window, and people say whatever they want to. If you don’t like somebody because they are another race, go ahead and make jokes. Make them feel inadequate, and inferior.
Get rid of divorce. If your husband or wife cheats, stay there. If the wife gets pregnant or the husband gets another woman pregnant, help raise the child.
Create a dress code for women. Women have to wear black robes that cover them from head to foot.
The only thing on television is stories from the bible, and those have to be carefully edited.
By Tim
September 22, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
The only thing on television is stories from the bible, and those have to be carefully edited.
does porn have to have a biblical story in it too? I think I would get tired watching David and Nathan doin it
By Jack
September 22, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Ashley. You forgot the part about where the woman washes the man’s feet when he gets home from work/golf course.
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Once again you were unable to process english and ignorantly applied a person in place of bird. That was YOUR statement - boy you cannot even comprehend a concept with two subjects!
Ohh - You proved the first tactic I illustrated re your replies: Confront Tab with a logical arguement; he will be childish and sarcastic.
Want to try again? Or are you through making mistakes for the day? (Clue for you: Pssst - I said birds get other birds drift)
By taboga
September 22, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
I think the constitution is a living document, that growth and change are an integral part of the whole concept; I think our founders saw that too, but had no clue how strongly technology would affect social policies.
Sandy,
Will you promise not to get mad if I tell you that almost everyone is aware of what the Founders envisioned?
That’s why they provided for: Constitutional Amendments.
Did your Liberal teachers conveniently forget to enlighten you to such?
By taboga
September 22, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
McDonald’s has raised the prize level!
They are now offering free Happy Meals to any Liberal that can explain the following:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
By taboga
September 22, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Want to try again? Or are you through making mistakes for the day? (Clue for you: Pssst - I said birds get other birds drift)
And I want to know how you know that. Did you come by that knowledge by use of telepathy with birds? Or did you take a poll of birds to see what they understand and what they don’t?
First you want to build floating houses in a hurricane district, and now you claim to know what birds are thinking.
You’re quite the character there FootMouse!
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
Tim - except with the new TV AHSLEY mentioned, David and Nathan would get stoned when they got done, and we are not talking smokeables. They would end up under a pile of rocks.
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Seeing as you know the minds of them; what exactly did the founders envision?
By Jack
September 22, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…�
Someone please explain how displaying the 10 commandments in government buildings violates the above.
By raylene
September 22, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
ashley- you are a complete moron!
By SteveSC
September 22, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
I won’t admit to being a liberal (being a Southern-bred Methodist), but I don’t think that someone who tried to claim that their practice of the Aztec religion (requiring human sacrifices) was protected by the First Amendment. “Separation of church and state” isn’t in the Constitution, but freedom of religion wasn’t either until Jefferson and Madison and their followers raised enough of a ruckus to cause the passage of the Bill of Rights.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
And here I thought ASHLEY was being facetiously sarcastic.
By Scalia
September 22, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
Thoughts and Tim…hahahahahaha!!!!
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
Tab,
It is what we educated people call knowledge. You learn it in school: Along with many other things, you may learn that all species birds have simalar phonemes and can understand the roots of the messages from other species.
It is what we educated people can do - refer to information and apply it logically.
By ASHLEY
September 22, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
You liberals and moderate conservatives want to destroy this country. It should go back to the way the bible wants it to be.
Everybody would be happy, there would be no crime, no abortion, no problems in society. The good book would serve as our moral compass, and direct us to see the light.
Sweets should be done away with to remind us that we are all sinners, and that there are sweeter things once we have reached the pearly Gates to be with St. Peter.
By kimberly
September 22, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Um… I believe Ashley was employing sarcasm, but I understand how that can be lost on some here.
Jack: The 10 Commandments can still be displayed on the courthouse lawn in the context of an historical monument. Also: (1) Not all the commandments are laws, therefore, they are not pertinent to what’s happening in the courthouse. (2) When a citizen is inside the courthouse, it is usually not for amusement, but for something serious that affects his or her LIFE. For justice to be dispensed equally, it has to be perceived as such by the people affected. If a citizen is not of Judeo-Christian background, they can perceive that they’ll be judged differently by having a Judeo-Christian mandate on the wall of the courthouse that is supposed to NOT recognize the direction of their faith for these official proceedings. It’s kind of like racism: if you’re a white male, you probably don’t think of it that often, so it’s not an issue for YOU. But if you grew up black in the American South, you DO think of it because your family’s history is frought with examples of how racism has adversely affected their lives — hence, you ARE thinking about it. If you’re a Buddhist in Alabama, you’re probably AFRAID on a regular basis. But justice is supposed to be for you too.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
Happy trails to you….until we meet again…
By raylene
September 22, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
that is just like what heather said. she thinks that we shouldnt have electricity, and that women shouldn’t work, they should just stay at home bare foot and pregnant. raising the kids and cooking. that is not the life i want. i dont want 16 kids running around me while i am 7 months pregnant and trying to cook dinner, for a husband that is probably cheating. i love my son, and i enjoy raising him, but i have to go to work. i get too bored just sitting at home.
By ASHLEY
September 22, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
You moderate conservatives and liberals can’t deal with a truly religious society based on morals and values. You won’t be happy until the wonderful USA of is in the toilet filled with filth. The devil music on the radio. The devil pictures in magazines. The devil pictures on billboards.
The bible should be placed in every government building to remind us of our sins and to serve as a moral eye and a beacon of true morals and values.
Sweets should be done away with to remind us that there are sweeter things once we reach the pearly gates and St. Peter. You will want to thank me.
P.S. I’m glad that they are preparing a bible textbook for the classroom. It is about time.
By FatherOfThree
September 22, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
Jack,
How I understand it is: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (this last part has no bearing - note the “free excercise”. If you disagree, explain what ‘freedoms to excercise your religion’ you have lost)
Therefore a law cannot be put in place that establishes religion as governing us in whole or part - the ten commandments are religious LAWs. So to display them in a courthouse or other govmt facility inherently assumes that place in which it is hung has an idiology that follows such religious laws.
It may be incidious; but it is a factual reality.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
FootMouse,
You’ve tried twice now to wiggle out of your ridiculous bird talking.
You needn’t embarass yourself any further.
By lozen
September 22, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this
Christians have done some very good works in the name of their religion. Some factions of the church were very active in the Vietnam anti-war movement and the civil rights movement. If you’re an intelligent and compassionate person sometimes you just can’t help using your religious teaching to do good things. Some factions of the church (especially here in the south) were adamantly against the civil rights movement and gung ho Vietnam. Sometimes I feel as if I’m in deja vu big time because I’m hearing all the same rhetoric again. “America, love it or leave it,” that kind of stuff.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this
“Picture yourself in a boat on a river, with tangerine trees and marmalade skies…”
“Kimberly in the sky with diamonds…”
Your imaginary world is quite a spectacle, Kimberly.
By raylene
September 22, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this
Ashley aka BIBLE THUMPER- shut up.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
Thank you Kimberly and Father of Three. I still don’t agree with it. Just cause it is displayed does not mean the govt. endorses it.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
oops, it appears I was wrong, sounds like ASHLEY TALIBAN after all. Just wondering whose denomination will be writing the classroom book. One by Catholics perhaps? How about Jews, they wrote the original one after all? The denomination with the most votes or the ones with the biggest guns? There would certainly be some historical basis for the second one there.
or as I always like to say “Freedom of religion is a great idea, just as long as you look at everything my way”.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
That makes two!
Kimberly and FatherofThree have absolutely no clue…
The Happy Meals are getting cold folks!
By ASHLEY
September 22, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
Here is the link:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050922/aponreus/bibletextbook;ylt=AusryQThOifW8CZQP69a4FtG2ocA;ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Now, those heathens that want to teach procreation education and that godforsaken evolution in high school will have to find somewhere else to go with that filth.
Nothing put religion based learning from henceforth. Amen.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Anybody that likes John Lennon is OK in my book. Beatles Rule. Always did, always will. Rolling Stones wouldn’t make a pimple on the Beatles butt.
By FatherOfThree
September 22, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Jack,
Just cause it is displayed does not mean the govt. endorses it.
Would you say the same for a banner in your house with a porn star on it? How about 20 ways to evade taxes? Just examples; but you get the point.
Taboga, Do you have an answer? I do not see any posts from you providing information of any sort - and I am assuming you are the local TROLL?
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
ASHLEY,
I cannot believe one has such bad grammer as you do. Do you talk like that too??
I see you ran away again tab.
By Brian Curtis
September 22, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
Father: Of course he is. Taboga has never offered any ideas or answered any questions; he’s too stupid and cowardly to engage in debate, so he just tosses around insults and mockery to pretend he’s superior to the actual intelligent people who debate here. In fact, he’s way out of his league but too stubborn to admit it. Kinda pathetic, really.
Oh, and he’ll use lots of italics to show how sarcastic he is. Just ignore him; he has nothing to contribute, and it shows with his every post.
By chuck
September 22, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
Sandy,
Indeed the Constitution is a living document. The founders knew very well that time would change the way that we respond to a variety of issues. That is why they allowed for change through Constitutional Amendments. Your knowledge of HISTORY being limited, I’m sure you have forgotten that…but we have done so over a number of important issues (slavery, women’s suffrage, direct election of the VP, 18 year-old suffrage, term limits for the presidency, etc.) We even changed it and then changed it back (prohibition). Shouldn’t, as I posted earlier, that process be done through legally changing the Constitution through ELECTED officials rather than through lifetime, politically appointed judges?
Your postulate that CONSERVATIVE judges are more likely to legislate from the bench than liberal judges is probably the stupidest thing you have said on this blog, and that is a wild statement considering the many stupid things you’ve said. Liberals created OVER Precedents to the contrary, a right to abortion. Liberals voted to allow PRIVATE entities to take your property through eminent domain in direct contradiction to the Constitution. These are just 2 examples among hundreds. There are at least 20 Sup. CT. rulings on abortion alone that violate the principle of stare decisis, a Latin term of art which means “to stand by decided cases; to uphold precedents; to maintain former adjudications”. Yet if conservatives voted to return to those earlier precedents liberals would accuse them of not following precedent. It is only a bad thing if conservatives do it if we are to believe the democrats in the recent hearings for judge Roberts.
Let’s talk about something else of which you obviously have limited knowledge (that list is growing longer every day), education. The stupidity of your remarks on this topic almost surpassed that of your comments on the courts.
First, there was almost NO government funded PUBLIC EDUCATION at the time of the industrial revolution, which occurred beginning about 1700. In many communities there was no STATE funded education until around 1900. The federal government did not get involved in any serious way with education until after Sputnik. The U.S. Department of Education was not even created until 1980 and here is what one website said about that:
A Violation of the 10th Amendment
The federal role in education is a violation of the 10th amendment of the United States Constitution which states, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.� Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government delegated the power to regulate or fund elementary or secondary education.
Second, these so-called factory schools are still used, but almost all of them have been completely modernized in the state of Georgia, keeping the architectural details in place as a matter of historical preservation. Your assertion that schools have not changed much since (I assume you meant the advent of assembly line production NOT the Industrial Revolution)the turn of the century…where to begin? That is purely assinine. Are you aware that the amount of information/knowledge doubles (last time I looked) in less than every 3 years? Having been a teacher for only 18 years I can tell you that what we teach and how we teach has changed in almost every way in that short time span. If you go back as far as 1960, you would not even recognize education. There were no cooperative learning groups, no technology (unless you count slide rules) no differentiated instruction, no special education, no guidance counsellors, and on and on.
I’m sure you are not aware of this, but we spend 5 times more per special ed student than we do for regular ed students. This is built into the funding formula for education. Poor counties receive “Equalization Grants” that bring them up to a higher level of funding. Everything you wrote was wrong!!!!!
By taboga
September 22, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Anybody that likes John Lennon is OK in my book. Beatles Rule. Always did, always will. Rolling Stones wouldn’t make a pimple on the Beatles butt.
Truer words have never been spoken, sir!
By Jack
September 22, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
I thought I was the local troll. It’s been said that I live in a trailer but I live under a bridge.
By ASHLEY
September 22, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
I might have bad grammar, but at least I can spell.
By Jack
September 22, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this
She came in through the bathroom window….
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this
Jack,
A response to my question?
By raylene
September 22, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
jack you crack me up. which bridge?
By FatMoose
September 22, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
ASHLEY,
Mispells happen - they are an instance.
Grammar is a theme; like your ignorance.
By Renee
September 22, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
Ashley your comments today exhibit a true, loving, accepting, Jesus following Christian. Kudos.
By Dusty
September 22, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this
What a blog! It would be hard to find another place with so much incorrect, infamous information. No wonder that Taboga gets upset. I gather “he does not tolerate fools easily”.
People who never go to centers of religion for any reason know ALL about them, ‘specially the jokes.
History is distorted. Misinformation is rampantly dispensed. Some seem to think the south is a rat hole but nobody wants to leave. Some say they are working yet they sit at their workplace posting frequently. No wonder jobs are going overseas where people WANT to work.
Liberals can’t call the president and even the country, enough bad names. Terrorists could not do it better. If I didn’t have a lot of confidence in average, level headed Americans, this blog would be very discouraging. But I am blessed with knowing the “average American”, a great privilege. Thank goodness for that.
(Jack, would you like to rent my floating house?)
By Jack
September 22, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this
Clairmont Rd & I-85.
FatMoose. Please repeat the question.
By taboga
September 22, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
Chuck tells it like it is - and the board goes silent.
What’s the matter Libs, does that dose of reality contradict your imaginary view of things?
The AJC posted an article a couple weeks back, stating that the United States H.S. Students rank 49 of 49 ranked nations in Math and Science.
But that’s ok though, you just ask them about Global Warming and Multi-Culturalism - and they can tell you all you want to know. And some.
By raylene
September 22, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
i might come visit you sometime Jack.
Ashley- even worse than having bad grammer, is that you are ignorant.
By Michael
September 22, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this
For those of you who demand that the invented liberal bogeyman explain why the Supreme Court ruled that the display of the ten commandments in a courtroom is unconstitutional perhaps you should take the time to read the decision itself in order to understand the Court’s reasoning. Why not try to at least understand a view you don’t except rather than reflexively rejecting it for religious or ideological reasons.
Is this character Ashley for real or is someone pulling our legs? She reminds me what Hawthorne said about the “persecuting spirit” of the Puritans in his Scarlet Letter.
By Just Being Me
September 22, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
Jack, how’d you manage to get internet access under that bridge? :-)
By Jack
September 22, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
Us trolls are into technology. Wireless connections even work under bridges. Ashley has got to be pulling our leg.
By Michael
September 22, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
It’s also humorous to hear people criticize liberals for a decline in science education given that we have a scientific illiterate in the White House who believes that intelligent design should be taught as an alternate to evolutionary theory. None of the other countries ranked above the United States in secondary school science education give the slightest attention to such a view, but Bush asserts that “religion has been around longer than evolution” as if that is a criterion for what ought to be taught in a science classroom.
The Republicans have the White House and Congress and have used political influence against any science they disagree with for business or religious reasons such as deleting global warming descriptions from the annual EPA report, to denying funding for basic research on stem cells, to the proposing that a philosophical theory grounded in religion is somehow a scientific theory. We can expect our lead in university level research to continue to be narrowed by the Europeans and Asian countries as long as we are led by such reactionary policies that are unfitting of a country such as the United States in the 21st century.
By Thoughts
September 22, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
Speaking of Puritans, I almost posted this earlier to ASHLEY, but figured she entitled to be an American Taliban, it’s a free country after all.
Does she know that 30 percent of Puritan brides, pre-Revolutionary War, were pregnant at the time of marriage? Wondered if it had to do with the filthy music videos and filthy billboards they had back then?
By Jack
September 22, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Any opportunity to bash Bush eh Michael?
By lozen
September 22, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
I think Ashley is posting her nonsense tongue-in-cheek. I hope so anyway. There’s only one person on this blog who admires Taboga. That says a lot about Dusty. But then Dusty/Crystal’s m.o. is also fly by on your broom, hit em with the “oh, I’m so superior to you!” sarcasm, and never say anything that contributes to a conversation. Birds of a feather who peep for each other!
By taboga
September 23, 2005 07:25 AM | Link to this
Taboga, Do you have an answer? I do not see any posts from you providing information of any sort - and I am assuming you are the local TROLL?
FatherofThree,
Normally I reserve the explanation for young children. So excuse me if I seem a little embarrassed for having to explain it to an adult. But here goes (Just because I am a good guy):
The First Amendment, in its orginal meaning, intent and writing - applies to the Congress of the United States and the Congress ONLY.
As the First Amendment does not apply to anyone other than Congress - it is not possible for anyone other than the Congress of the United States to “violate” the First Amendment.
And the ONLY way that Congress could violate the First Amendment, is if they were to make a law which respects an establishment of religion or prohibits the free exercise thereof.
The fact that someone would put a display of the 10 Commandments in a public building, does not, in any shape, manner or form - violate the First Amendment. First, because they are not Congress and secondly, no LAW has been written in that regard. On the other hand, if Congress were to make a law which required that public buildings display the Commandments, or which prohibited the Commandments from being displayed - that would be a violation of the First Amendment.
In short, if the Congress of the United States does not make a LAW respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (just as the FA clearly states) - there is no possible way that the First Amendment can be violated. It’s that simple. And that is exactly what the Founders intended.
A simple test to tell whether or not the First Amendment has been violated, is to ask yourself: “Did Congress make a law?” That way, if it is in dispute as to whether or not any religious symbols, etc. are in violation of the First Amendment, your answer to the question will tell you whether it has been or not.
Taking it a step further. Have you ever wondered why, that if religious symbols, etc. ARE a violation of the First Amendment, then why doesn’t Congress just make laws which prohibit those things and save people from having to run to court every 5 mins because somebody found an antique Bible in the basement of an old school house?
The answer is: They can’t. They can’t, because if they did - THEY would be in violation of the First Amendment!
I know that was a simple explanation. But I felt compelled to such considering some of the company on this blog.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 07:58 AM | Link to this
I think Ashley is posting her nonsense tongue-in-cheek. I hope so anyway. There’s only one person on this blog who admires Taboga.
Lozen,
I think you admire me. There’s no doubt that you’re jealous, but I think there’s admiration hidden in there as well…
But anyway, you obviously misunderstand Dusty’s posts. They have nothing to do with admiration - she’s just having a good time make fun of folks. That’s all.
But like I said, you on the other hand…
By Sandy/Sanhan
September 23, 2005 08:17 AM | Link to this
Well Chuck, I guess I should have prefaced my thoughts as being sociological in nature; I thought that was apparent. You were apparently venting your spleen about something else, so perhaps your reading comprehension was off. You seemed to read things in my post (which I stand by in its general form with the exception noted below) that I never stated. I let your digression slide in the interest of making yesterday’s topic more interesting, but you did not address nor enlighten us as to how faith-based initiatives might succeed in education where our current system is failing.
Isn’t NCLB Federal involvement of education? If the federal government is going to make sweeping changes in our educational system, they should at least fund them. But then, according to your post, that would violate the 10th amendment. If they’re not going to fund them, then it’s only about punishing poor performing schools putting the onus on the local government, not making either of them better. Or it’s about this president trying to appear that he’s doing something on domestic policy.
I will concede that the time period I meant to reference was the expansion of industrialism. If you read my post again, I stated “In some ways it (education) has changed very little since the industrial revolution when it was assumed that student would be tracked.” I did not state that it has not changed at all. If it makes you feel better, “In ONE way, education has changed very little…”
Your zeal in proving my alleged stupidity is impressive. When did you have time to teach your students yesterday? I certainly hope your teaching style is different than your blogging style. For future arguments, you may wish to spell the condition of the student you mentioned correctly. I assume you meant cerebral PALSY. (My job requires me to be a stickler for correct medical terminology and medical spelling.)
Regarding judges, the problem with the term “activist judges” is that most people use it to mean “judges who disagree with me.” When I use the term, I use it to mean judges who invalidate established laws. I mentioned Clarence Thomas, as he seems to be the most active, (not just in pornography). Consider the following:
This New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/06/opinion/06gewirtz.html op-ed by Paul Gewirtz and Chad Golder suggests an actual measure for what makes an “activist” judge:
They “found that justices vary widely in their inclination to strike down Congressional laws. Justice Clarence Thomas, appointed by President George H. W. Bush, was the most inclined, voting to invalidate 65.63 percent of those laws; Justice Stephen Breyer, appointed by President Bill Clinton, was the least, voting to invalidate 28.13 percent. The tally for all the justices appears below. Thomas 65.63 % Kennedy 64.06 % Scalia 56.25 % Rehnquist 46.88 % O’Connor 46.77 % Souter 42.19 % Stevens 39.34 % Ginsburg 39.06 % Breyer 28.13 % One conclusion our data suggests is that those justices often considered more “liberal” - Justices Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David Souter and John Paul Stevens - vote least frequently to overturn Congressional statutes, while those often labeled “conservative” vote more frequently to do so. At least by this measure (others are possible, of course), the latter group is the most activist.”
In anticipation, I’m guessing you’ll use the “liberal media” argument, but have at it.
As far as your claim that my opinions are completely wrong, perhaps, perhaps not. But aren’t we all students of life? As a teacher I assumed you knew that.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 08:24 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
If you are going to provide a link to something - could you provide one THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO BE A MEMBER OF THE NY TIMES WEBSITE IN ORDER TO ACCESS IT!!
thanks.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
Let me explain to you what an “Activist Judge” is. An Activist Judge, is one who injects his/her own personal views on things into their interpretation and subsequent rulings on the law.
Being an “Activist Judge” has absolutely nothing to do with how many times you vote to strike down or overturn laws. An “Activist Judge” is one who might read: See Spot Run and rule that the words actually mean: Spot rollover and go fetch a stick. And ruling that way, simply because he/she thinks that’s what dogs should do.
How many times a judge votes to strike down laws that are unconstitutional has nothing to do with being an “Activist Judge”. That is just being a Judge period.
By ASHLEY
September 23, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this
Good morning, heathens, and fellow good wholesome Christians like Zack, Boscoe, Heather, and Randy.
There is nothing tongue in cheek about my beliefs. I stand by them, and uphold the same doctrines as the extremely insightful, religious icon Ms. Sadie Fields.
As for the history debate, liberals and heathens are always rewriting history to suit their beliefs. Of course they are going to say that most Puritan women were pregnant. Of course they are going to blame the decline in science education on religion. That’s what liberals do. They whine, complain, and pout when they do not get their way. All you can do is pray for them.
By TownCrier
September 23, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
Hear Ye, Hear Ye Do not sign up for the New York Times website. The Gestapo Arm of the Religious Reich could eventually get ahold of the email address and track down those liberals for incarceration. Hear Ye, Hear Ye
By TownCrier
September 23, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this
I guess Taboga was not Christian enough for ASHLEY’s Good Morning Salutation.
I guess Ashley does not see enough TV, seems there are enough stations out there, FoxTV comes to mind, that do nothing but whine about liberals. Kinda interesting that the most conservative network has the raunchiest TV shows. Is there a connection? hmmmmmm.
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
Hey Ashley! What about me? I’m a good wholesome Christian!!!!
By Renee
September 23, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
jbm I hope YOU are not in her group of “Christians”. I question her use of the title. lol
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
Good point, Renee. I was actually being sarcastic, but you’re right. I’d hate to be included in her group of Christians…. she’s nothing like the Christ I know.
By chuck
September 23, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
You might have noticed Sandy Dear, that my post was at almost 4:00, though it wouldn’t matter if it was during class. My students are doing just fine thank you.
Judicial activism is MAKING laws, not striking them down. Unconstitutional laws should be struck down. CREATING constitutional rights that don’t exist is ACTIVISM, as in the cases stated above. Restricting rights granted by the constitution is activism. The 10th Amendment was NOT an afterthought by the founders. It was necessary if this new government was to be instituted, because otherwise the states would not have ratified it. This in no way is a defense of slavery, but the Southern states were right to oppose the illegal intervention by the federal government in the business of the states. It has in many ways made us a weaker nation and removed MANY of our liberties.
I disagree with NCLB it is another intrusion by the federal government in the affairs of the states. The constitution does not give the feds ANY role in public education. It is therefore unconstitutional for the federal government to take an active role in it.
By TownCrier
September 23, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
JBM - but you are more of what a Christian probably should be, so I am not surprised you were ignored. LOL
By chuck
September 23, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
OOOPS, I didn’t finish my thoughts earlier. I meant to also tell you about something that has occurred in education over the past century called self directed learning. Often times students are allowed to determine HOW they will approach learning about a particular topic. This often takes to form of cooperative learning groups. In these instances, the teacher monitors behavior and facilitates learning acting as a resource. These little two minute responses to your drivel enable me to educate those who read this blog as well as those students who are in my classroom.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
As for the history debate, liberals and heathens are always rewriting history to suit their beliefs. Of course they are going to say that most Puritan women were pregnant. Of course they are going to blame the decline in science education on religion. That’s what liberals do. They whine, complain, and pout when they do not get their way. All you can do is pray for them.
The above statement was made by ASHLEY. The statement below comes from the Communist Manifesto:
“There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.
And when you remember that Liberalism is just another term for Communism - you notice the striking resembelance.
By Sandy/Sanhan
September 23, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Chuck, some of your posts were done during school hours yesterday, but hey, if you can multitask, more power to you. I will take your opinions into consideration; as you’ve pointed out, I’m no constitutional scholar, but hope to learn what I can.
May I point out, however, that sharing your knowledge with less hostility and fewer personal insults might help bring your points across more clearly and effectively. It might also help bring a little more respect to the teaching profession.
Until next week, namaste, all.
By Jack
September 23, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this
Is Ashley married to Zack? Sounds like a good match!
By chuck
September 23, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
If I sound hostile Sandy, it’s because I’m sick of listening to pompous, arrogant, elitists who come on the blog and act as if they know everything and that there is no room for any other opinion but theirs. I don’t mind people sharing their opinions AS OPINIONS, but when they represent them as FACTS, I draw the line…especially when the so-called facts are so VERY FAR from reality. If I offended you by my response, which was a little sarcastic, WELLLLL GET OVER IT. It’s a blog, it is not personal.
By ASHLEY
September 23, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this
I agree Chuck. The liberals try to beat the rest of the world over the head with their inaccurate knowledge. Do they not realize that everything you need to know is found in the good bible?
Measurements, geography, morals, values, grammar, etc. We really need to get this country back to where it used to be.
Once mindnumbing liberalism is stomped out, that shall be achieved.
By Dusty
September 23, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
Now that Lozen has graded me “superior”, I shall most certainly start talking to birds with FatMoose and chatting about Socrates with Michael. To keep my new classification,I may even paste Pericles’ Funeral Oration on the blog. After all, we have seen that a lengthy document is no problem at all except boredom.
Maybe next week’s topic will be something we can flex our muscles over, some even using their brains. You can expect “Why did President Bush cause Hurricane Rita?”. AJC always gives us a non-partisan subject.
By Jack
September 23, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this
Dusty. You are superior to many on this blog. :)
By SUZAN
September 23, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this
back to the premise of the debate, Hospital were established by Christians, Mental Health facilities were established by Christians, education for the masses was pushed for by Chrisitians. Harvard, Princeton,Yale, Oxford, Emory to name of few universities were all established by Christians with the focus of education to revolve around Christianity. It may make many of you angry to know that the majaority of charities that help the unfortunate in this country and others comes from Christians.
Followers of Jesus Christ and his teaching that we take to be the literal truth. If we hold out our hand to those in need we understand that we should try and reach the soul of the person where real pain is felt and where real healing from love and compassion can work. I know the very name of Jesus angers many but that is just another sign of the power in the name of the Son of Man
By SUZAN
September 23, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
Im waiting for the debate on whether we are using weather controling machines and testing them out on our own first to see if they work before we go for world domination
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this
I won’t be asking: “Why did President Bush cause Hurricane Rita?â€? That would be silly!
I’ll be asking: “Why is congress cutting medicare for the alleged purpose of paying for the rebuilding of the Gulf Coast instead of rolling back some of the massive tax cuts to the few wealthiest Americans? Poor people (whom we’ll now have more of) will have even LESS access to health care than they already to, which isn’t much. Yet the mega-rich will be able to afford NEW Hummers next year…. So um… Why?” I’ll also ask WHY we’d rather borrow money from CHINA every day than ask the people who have benefitted the most from the best America has to offer to pitch in with their fair share? I’d also ask “How much is FOUR TRILLION and how did it come that we went from a budget surplus to FOUR TRILLION in debt, and: How the HECK does that fit into the traditional conservative philosophy… exactly?”
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, I think they’d prefer if you just ask why the prez caused Rita. lol
By Jack
September 23, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
Kimberly. Doo doo happens.
By SUZAN
September 23, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this
kimberly Thank you for that post you have ask the exact questions I want answered. How can we borrow money and indebt ourslevs to China, They are withou a doubt the worst offender of human rights ing the world. every surpass use right now and we borrow money from them. I never buy made in china products. but the sad part is somany products that go into other products may be mde in china
By chuck
September 23, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
What is there fair share Kimberly? They pay 28% of their income in taxes. How much is enough for you wealth confiscators? What kind of incentive will there be for people to do well, make money (which they spend in the small businesses that fuel the economy), create jobs and fund 80% of the government if we confiscate what they make? What is YOUR pension plan going to be worth when those folks start selling off their stocks and bonds to pay those confiscatory taxes?
Your lack of understanding of the economy is astounding.
By Brad
September 23, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this
The poor chose their lot in life. They decided to forego education by hanging in the back and laughing and talking with their classmates, and causing constant interruptions to the learning environment. The teachers can’t do anything because the parents blame everything on the teachers.
Look at Cuba. It is certainly nowhere near as wealthy as the US. Why do they have a higher literacy rate? Why is education valued everywhere but here?
By SUZAN
September 23, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
Chuck I pay 28% of my income as well and I am far from being rich. Infact with the rising gas prices I have parked my car and I am riding MARTA cause I just cant aford the gas now and I have a 4 cylinder. We need a fairer tax system in this country. I think Kimberly’s point may have been the rocketing budget deficet, a need to borrow money from countries that have the worst reputation in the owrld for human rights, tax cuts that dont make sense when we are fighting a two front war on terror, Katrina, Rita, and rising medical cost. Something has to happen to level the playing field. If the middle class crashes there will be no more upper class
By Renee
September 23, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this
Some poor choose their lot in life, some don’t. We can go on and on trying to figure out why people are poor when it’s more evident that in a society you are going to have rich people, poor people, and middle-class. Rich doesn’t mean smart and good, and poor doesn’t mean dumb and bad.
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
The tax cuts for the wealthy, along with the corporate welfare for giant corporations, was sold to us on the promise that they would “create jobs and stimulate the economy.” CLEARLY, they have not. Leo Mullins got lots of tax breaks, as has Delta. Yet they’re laying off thousands of jobs. Ditto Sony this week. Hewlett Packard last month, Eastman Kodak, and just about every big company you can name (except Halliburton, but they circumvent the capitalist theory of competition by getting their business the old fashioned way).
The tax cuts were NOT sold to us on the promise that “Rich people DESERVE to own two yachts, five vacation homes, and a garage full of expensive, gas-guzzling imports, regardless of HOW they made their money.”
Chuck, I hope YOU don’t wind up disabled, unable to work, and in a state-run nursing home. ‘Cause NO ONE will listen to your “screw the poor in the name of Christ” opinions there. (If you do, try to enjoy your jello and monthly sponge bath while you pray for some compassion.)
By Scalia
September 23, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…are you bitter? Your 1:07 post is hilarious.
It’s true. The rich keep getting richer, and they have the poor and middle class right in their pockets. They want all the blame put on the poor and liberal. Deflection is a power tool.
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Absolutely right, Renee. The key word is that some poor people choose their lot in life, not all. Just like some rich people choose their lot in life, NOT ALL. It would be ridiculous to suggest that all rich people are rich because they chose to be rich. Just as it is ridiculous to say that all poor people are poor because they chose to be poor. Ridiculous
Suzan, I had to park my car too, and have resorted to taking two MARTA buses and a train to get to work.
By Scalia
September 23, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
The Forbes 400 Richest just came out. The rich have gotten richer.
“The collective net worth of the nation’s wealthiest climbed $125 billion, to $1.13 trillion. All but 26 people on our roster are billionaires.”
By Scalia
September 23, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this
I forgot to add the following:
“Surging real estate and oil prices drove up several fortunes and helped pave the way for 33 new members (and nine retreads). Gulf Coast oilman Tracy Krohn landed on the list after taking his W&T Offshore drilling operation public in January. “
Do you think that Tracy is a friend of the Bush family?
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the stats, Scalia. I’d like to see the stats on the poorest Americans, but Americans seem to have a hard time grasping negative numbers — hence the Tra-la-la response to the deficit.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Some of you ignoramuses…!
How on earth do you think that increasing taxes on the wealthy - is going to HELP our economy?
Can’t any of you clowns realize, that you could actually, on paper, raise taxes on the wealthy to be 99% of their earnings and they are NEVER, EVER - going to PAY it?
I really do wish, that some of you would trip and fall, bang your head against the concrete - so that maybe your brain would get jarred out of idle and into gear!
If you raise the taxes on the wealthy - they will defer that increase to you and I. They do this by charging US more for their goods and/or services. They do it by laying-off workers. They do it buy selling off stocks as another poster has already pointed out. They offset the tax increase in many different ways, but they all end up the same way: WE wind up paying the freight!
You remind me of that old saying: “Cut off your nose to spite your face”. Your hatred of the wealthy has so blinded you, that you favor doing things that will severely punish the very people that you claim to be so concerned about!
Un-F__-Believable!
By chuck
September 23, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
Well said TAB
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
Toober face: I refer you to the nineties. It was working then, and my 401K was actually worth something, too. YOUR ignorance is Un-F__-Believable.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
The second line item in the Communist Manifesto:
And once the Marxists turned the Workers against the Capitalists - The Revolution was born.
Everything that you Leftists spout-out on these blogs, everyday - comes right out of the Communist Manifesto.
And the funny part about it is - most of you rubes don’t even know it!
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, I was going to say the same thing about the economy of the 90’s and my 401(k).
By Scalia
September 23, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
Taboga:
What do you propose then? Do we keep things the way that they are? You always criticize, but yet, you never come up with an alternative. You remind me of the Misfits from Jem.
And it is really amazing to me how well versed you are with the Communist Manifesto. Dare we say that you are a closeted commie?
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
Hmmm.. so taxation to support government spending and congressional pensions is a Marxist idea? Why, thank you for enlightening me, oh wise one. I thought it was sound economics. So then, is borrowing money from COMMUNIST CHINA to offset tax cuts to wealthy citizens at the VERY HEART of Godly, American capitalism? I see that I have much to learn. Thank you, oh pillar of truth and greatness. At which university to you teach economics? Please let me enroll to learn more. I remain, your humble grasshopper.
By Renee
September 23, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this
LOl kimberly
By nowiknow
September 23, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
such maturity is pooring out of everyone right now that I can’t help but be proud. I always wondered what was happening to todays youth, and now I see it, they have you people as roll models.
By buildingbridges
September 23, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
DANG - I’m gone for a day and 1/2 and I come back and can’t even begin to comment on anything. I’m actually kinda appalled. I’ll be back monday when there is a new topic to discuss while I keep nursing this bronchitis. These age-old arguments that turn into p** contests are getting old.
Everyone have a good weekend!
By Just Being Me
September 23, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
LOL Kimberly - Hysterical!!!
By taboga
September 23, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
Kimberly,
How would a little dim-wit like you, survive if it were not for the Wealthy?
What special talents, skills and abilities do you have which would provide you with a comfortable living - if there were no wealthy people providing you with a job?
It is mind-blowing how little snits like you, who have never done a noteworthy thing for yourself; much less anyone else, can have so much hatred for the very people who: Provide you with a job, pay the majority of the taxes in this country and keep this country moving!
You little p**-ants are continually in a constant state of whining and moaning about the wealthy. Whining a moaning about what they are not doing. Whining and moaning about what they should do. It goes on and on…
And just what in the hell have YOU ever done for anyone, Kimberly? What job have you provided for anyone, Kimberly? How many millions have you paid in taxes Kimberly? How many poor people have you helped, Kimberly? How many charitable organizations have you kept afloat by your enormous contributions, Kimberly? How many retirement plans have you formed, Kimberly?
Why don’t you just tell us all what great contributions you have made to our society, Kimberly - rather than railing on and on with your childish rants about what everyone else is not doing…!
By ??????
September 23, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
Roll models????????????
Yes, you should be the one to comment on someone’s maturity. Roll models ROFLMAO!!!!
By Jack
September 23, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
The fair tax would work.
By FatherOfThree
September 23, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
taboga,
Your post at: September 23, 2005 07:25 AM shows you have no idea what info was being exchanged. Nothing stated conflicts with what you wrote: You did not address the point that was being discussed. We skipped the 3rd grade part bc it is the most baseline amount of understanding. If you find it exhilatrating reiterating 3rd grade material - have at it.
Curious: How would the first amendment impact the situation of a plaque (hung in a courtroom) that has a copy of the newspaper in it that had the headline “God is Dead?” How about hammurabi’s code? Or a pentigram?
By Scott
September 23, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
there has been some discussion of activist judges and unconstitutional laws…but you know what recently went into effect in our courts that nobody has addressed but should be a tad disturbing to all?
Sentencing guidelines….they are now “advisory” rather than binding…
So what? you may ask…
Well, that allows for two things, neither of them good
1) Defendants can be sentenced to much harsher sentences than their crimes might dictate.
2) Defendants can be sentenced to much lesser sentences than their crimes might dictate.
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
Ahhh.. Toober-master… Your words cut me to the quick. But I know you administer this pain out of your love of truth and learning, and yes, for me. You want me to be all I can be. You want mankind to stop this foolishness and harken to your great wisdom. Your lashes cut deeply, yes. Thank you. I eagerly await your solutions to all my problems, both personal, and as a part of the collective entity of mankind. Please, more! Your humble grasshopper.
By chuck
September 23, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
That’s why I have disability insurance Kim, that, BTW, I pay for myself, choosing to take less money home to protect against that.
Tax cuts have ALWAYS stimulated the economy. We are in great shape economically. I don’t like the deficit either, but I at least understand where it comes from…war on terror, Katrina, etc…Increasing taxes is NEVER the answer to deficits. They always increase when taxes are raised.Even JFK a democrat, understood that.
By Renee
September 23, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
Yes it would Jack.
By Renee
September 23, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…tooooo funny!!!!!!!
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Sooo… everyone who has the sad lot of residing in an underfunded, state-run nursing home is there as a direct result of his or her own negligence or folly? Every last one of them? Hmmm..
I’m learning SO MUCH!
Just a thought on why blaming the victim is such a popular coping tool: You see, when you blame the victim (of anything at all) you take away the element of “there, but for the grace of God, go I…” Because trusting that God won’t let that happen to YOU is a scary thing. And by blaming the victim, you can have a false sense of security by KNOWING that horrible predicament will NEVER happen to YOU! You can close your eyes amid the suffering and sleep well. Sleep well, sweet Prince! Sleeeeeeep….
By where
September 23, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
where is the blog monitor, ole Ashley girl, when we need her for all this psuedo-cursing and sh*t?
our role models are now floor roll models? what gives with that, too much booze?
By Jack
September 23, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Grasshopper. Complaining like worrying accomplishes nothing. use your thought processes to come up with solutions rather than waste them on complains & worry. Drink more green tea and when it gets really bad try saki.
By Scott
September 23, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this
Why does the mayor of New orleans spend so much time placing blame on others but taking none for himself? Is it not his city? should he not be aware of its shortcomings and strengths better than anyone else? Or is it just easier to complain rahter than take action?
Did anyone here Andrew Young’s take on this? I thought it was interesting
By Dusty
September 23, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
Nowiknow,
if you are looking for a role model on a blog, you are way off course. You’d have a better chance at home (I hope), schools, religious centers and plain old libraries. We’re expecting you to set the world straight. Don’t start off in the wrong place. (That’s my children’s sermon for today.)
See you folks next week. Keep your waterwings on in case Rita follows her role model Katrina. Poor New Orleans.
Already flooding again.
By where
September 23, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
I’ll second that Stay on school, role-model seeker
By chuck
September 23, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
I tell you what I propose Scalia,
First, phase out Social Security over the next 30-40 years beginning with those retiring in 15 years with a drop dead date in 40 years…all benefits cease.
Second, eliminate EVERY Social program currently funded by the feds in 2 years.
Eliminate the departments of the interior, education, energy, HHR, Homeland Security, Labor, HUD, veteran’s affairs, transportation, EPA, and commerce.
Cut Congress’ pay in half, put strict term limits in place, eliminate Congressional pensions, make them part time legislators again that have to work for a living, and cut them down to 2 staffers, one at home in their district.
This is just a start. After we phase all of these things out we can begin cuts in the bloated department of defense and add soldiers in the field. Increase our number of FBI and CIA agents, especially in espionage and eliminate the thousands of administrative people who do little to keep us safe anyway.
Cut taxes to the bare minimum to fund the remaining departments and to pay off the debt.
Pass constitutional amendments to make these cuts permanent and to mandate a REAL balanced budget.
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
Chuck, these are some great suggestions. I think your list would work well if we added a couple more things: - Bring back slavery as a way to handle the homeless people and keep them productive. Let them live in little shacks on the industrial plantations where they serve, and guard them with big guns so they don’t try to escape and steal your TV. If your net worth drops below $10,000 you are automatically dragged to the slave auction, with the government using your fetching price toward the deficit. - Shoot anybody who gets sick, thereby eliminating the need for pesky medical services or nursing homes for Grandma, who is no longer capable of paying taxes anyway, so screw her. (In the name of Jesus and America, of course!) - People born with disabilities: Shoot them too!
By Scott
September 23, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
Kimberly - while I agree that it was a garbage post, could u please leave the Jesus wisecrack out of it?
By Scalia
September 23, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
It’s the weekend, and time to go have my beer, watch my booty filled football, and wait for the season premiere of Desperate Housewives on Sunday. I hope they kept that hottie Jesse Metcalf.
Have a good weekend.
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this
Sorry.
By ASHLEY
September 23, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
Here ye, here ye all you sinners need to be at church on Sunday praising the Lord, and asking for repentence for your callous words and wrongdoings. Liberals need to bathe and gargle with holy water.
Find it in yourself to repress your inner demons, and let the word speak through you. Amen.
By Renee
September 23, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Jesse is hot, but Eva Longoria is wayyyyy hotter.
By where
September 23, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this
Gotta love all these ripe for a bloody revolution ideas.
How about eliminating the Federal government altogther, that ought to speed things up.
Gotta ask Ashley about the Jews? They might not like that be-in-church-onSunday concept. Funny how the Catholic church changed the worship day from the Jewish Sabbath to the Sun-God Worshipping day, Sunday, and the heathens just followed along like sheep.
By Tim
September 23, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
Renee… but Eva Longoria is wayyyyy hotter ugggg lesbians have no taste lol JK! she is a hottie… how about we make a deal… if I run into her I will send her your way… if you run into the cute blonde gardener send him my way :)
By Renee
September 23, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
Tim I think we have a deal!!!
By taboga
September 23, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
Kimberly has now been reduced to pouting. “Bringing back Slavery” and “Killing old people” - sounds just like some juvenile feeling sorry for themselves…
And the next time one of you clowns ask me to offer “solutions” - pleaser refer back to Kimberly’s response to Chuck. He offered rational and realistic proposals and how does that nitwit respond? With some childish ranting about “Slave Auctions” and “Shooting people that get sick”…
And now we see the Leftist’s latest talking point that has made the rounds: Selling bonds to China.
There isn’t a damn one of you out here that know anything about any of that - it’s just your lastest parrot piece that has been handed down to you.
By FatherOfThree
September 23, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Waiting for a response.
Need help - I will post it again, here:
Your post at: September 23, 2005 07:25 AM shows you have no idea what info was being exchanged. Nothing we stated conflicts with what you wrote: You did not address the point that was being discussed. We skipped the 3rd grade part bc it is the most baseline amount of understanding. If you find it exhilatrating reiterating 3rd grade material - have at it.
Curious: How would the first amendment impact the situation of a plaque (hung in a courtroom) that has a copy of the newspaper in it that had the headline “God is Dead?� How about hammurabi’s code? Or a pentigram?
By chuck
September 23, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
There you go clueless Kimmie, Here is the real truth just for you. If you didn’t have the wealthy to blame all of your problems on you would have to actually get a job and take responsibility for your own actions. You are a truly ignorant, self-loathing, little miscreant. I pity the people you come in contact with, assuming they let you out in the daytime.
You have NO IDEA how the real world works or should work. You have no concept of independence, no concept of self-reliance, and no concept of reward for accomplishment. You also have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to me. My Mother is in a nursing home recuperating from a stroke. We count on the wonderful staff there (yes it is state run) to take care of her basic needs, and to do her physical therapy but someone from our family is there every day to check behind them.
I have volunteered at nursing homes for over 30 years, since I worked at one in high school. I also tutor students on my own time at no charge to make sure they don’t get behind. I build ramps as a volunteer for a local hospice. I work in a church run food center once a month.
Tell me, what do YOU DO besides sit around and whine all day about that miserable thing that you call your life? Anything? Anything? That’s what I thought. All talk NO WALK. You want the government to do everything and IT usually does nothing well. That’s why you will always be a loser because you don’t have the guts to get out there and change the world yourself.
By chuck
September 23, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this
BYE blog. Have a great weekend.
Thanks TAB
Get a life Kimmie.
By Scott
September 23, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Has anyone ever listened to Michael Savage?
By Renee
September 23, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
I have, I don’t particularly care for him. Maybe it’s the time he’s on or his voice because I listen to 750 all day but can’t do Savage
By taboga
September 23, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Have talked with him several times…
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this
That’s funnie Chuckie… SOOOO funny. I don’t blame all my problems on rich people. Only the problems that rich people cause, and those are not mine alone. I have ALWAYS worked. Even though I had parental help with college, I always took summer jobs for spending money. I have worked and payed my own way for decades. As a doting wife, I brought home half the money and did ALL the cooking, cleaning, housework, yardwork, and even paid HIS child support. I’ve never applied for welfare of any kind, although I have been on the receiving end of NUMEROUS recessionary layoffs (and one for being pregnant). I was scared sometimes I wouldn’t make it, but I always managed somehow, and found work again. EACH TIME, I knew it was because God had blessed me with brains and ability and I thanked Him for those, and for the opportunity. I have volunteered as a literacy tutor, and am active in other ways that would blow my anonymity to disclose. It shouldn’t surprise you to know that I have a great big tatoo on my forehead that only disturbed and troubled people can read. It says: “I CARE. Let ME help.” Hence, I have more troubled whackos stagger into my life than stray cats to a tuna cannery. At the very least, I listen. Some I DO help. Some I can’t. I also make a point of being a sympathetic ear to the kids in my ‘hood, because I know it takes a village, and not everyone’s parents love them the way I love my child.
But unlike you, I don’t parade my medals of virtue around in front of everyone’s nose. The blog is a place to discuss and debate the issues — a necessary factor in problem solving at all levels.
But thanks, Chuckie for pointing out that, in spite of all this, I am just a ignorant, self-loathing, little miscreant. Funny though, my phone rings constantly from folks who seek my company, sympathetic ear, advice, or a good laugh to get them through a bad day. I’ll inform them all at once that they are mistaken. Chuckie has spoken. BTW, what church do you attend? I’d like to show up Sunday and repent.
By Jack
September 23, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
Proof that life is no bowl of cherries.
By Scott
September 23, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
Renee - I have listened to him several time, with mixed feelings..sometimes I see his point, other times, I just think he is ranting
By Renee
September 23, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this
Yeah, ranting is the right word. He hasn’t caught my attention enough to listen to him. I listen to everybody else on 750 though.
By ANGIE
September 23, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
What I don’t understand is why most of you don’t even want the name Jesus Christ mentioned and seem to want all Christians institutionalized for insanity. Turn on the news, read this paper (AJC), look around you…isn’t there enough horror, sadness and sickness out there that you would want something positive in the world. Christians (though not perfect)are trying to be a light in this dark world of despair and offer hope and the way to salvation. Why must you try to tear that down and silence people offering hope? Notice I said “offering” and not “forcing”.
Christians don’t force anyone to become a fellow Christian.
This is supposed to be a free country where we have “freedom OF religion”…not freedom FROM religion.
P.S. The only forced conversions I know of took place by the Catholics who forced the Orthodox Serbs in Croatia to convert or die. (Don’t beleive me? Research: Ante Pavelic, Archbishop Stepinac, Jasenovac, Catholic Croatia forced conversions, etc. ) Many were just burned alive inside the churches. The words Catholic and Christian are not synonymous.
By mit
September 23, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this
is mike savage the guy with the john roberts commerical taking about him driving the terrorists to the airport?
something like that, its hilarious
By mit
September 23, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
angie,
please provide an example of this. I have yet to notice anything that your post implies
By taboga
September 23, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
I was scared sometimes I wouldn’t make it, but I always managed somehow, and found work again.
I am sure that all your “work” was being self-employed, right? Because I am sure that no one like you would dare depend on getting a job from a wealthy person, right?
Or maybe you got that job from a poor person? Maybe you were “scared” and thought you “wouldn’t make it” - so you turned to a poor person for help?
And when you made “spending money” while in school - where did you spend it? Did you spend your money on things that poor people created, invented, marketed, distributed and supplied?
Was it poor people that raised/donated the money to build your school? Was it poor people who paid all the financial freight for the school?
And when you went to work to make money to live off of - where do you live? Did poor people raise the capital to buy the land and construct the home that you live in?
Do you have an automobile that was designed, built and manufactured by poor people? Do you drive that same automobile on highways that were paid for by poor people?
And when you make the statement: “I don’t blame all my problems on rich people” - are you saying that you do in fact blame rich people for some of your problems?
Everything that you have, buy, enjoy and want - all come from the wealthy folks that make things happen in this country! And being the good little Liberal that you are - you bite the hand that feeds you!
Incredibly amazing!
By taboga
September 23, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
please provide an example of this. I have yet to notice anything that your post implies
The fact that you haven’t “noticed” - isn’t surprising in the least. In order to “notice” things you have to escape the imaginary world of Liberalism and step into the one that is blue on top.
By FatherOfThree
September 23, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
Jack,
Yesterday you replied to my post with: Just cause it is displayed does not mean the govt. endorses it.
Would you say the same for a banner in your house with a porn star on it? How about 20 ways to evade taxes? A pentagram on the wall of a govmt facility? Just examples; and curious as to your answer.
Taboga, You are obviously evading my post as is posted in “your rules of conduct” submitted by someone that seems to know your ‘tactics’ - Do not bother seeing as you have yet to say anything above a 3rd graders education.
By taboga
September 23, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this
Taboga, You are obviously evading my post as is posted in “your rules of conduct� submitted by someone that seems to know your ‘tactics’ - Do not bother seeing as you have yet to say anything above a 3rd graders education.
I read that gooberish 5 times and I still have no idea what you are trying to say. I speak more than one language, but gooberish isn’t one of them…
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
Vonnegut is right.
By FatherOfThree
September 23, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
Funny Tab!
Your reply is in your rules of conduct as well!! They have you pegged; too funny.
Do not get the joke? Scroll up a ways!
Good Stuff. The idiot is ignorant to his ridicule! Must be the most stupid troll I have found.
By mit
September 23, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
taboga, poor people pay taxes like everyone else. so yes the road, the school, etc was built with poor people’s money.
so what are you are saying that poor people should be cast aside because I know you are not rich. Rich people are busy making money. you are busy with this blog. very busy. I know you don’t get paid to write here. so you are poor too. you have a 500,000+ dollar home, car? doubt it.
By mit
September 23, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this
The fact that you haven’t “noticed� - isn’t surprising in the least. In order to “notice� things you have to escape the imaginary world of Liberalism and step into the one that is blue on top.
oh, this example clears it right up. i take it taboga doesn’t have an example if he is going to write this.
father of 3, he obviously does know gibberish (gooberish? what a dope)
By Scott
September 23, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this
Why idea of Vonnegut’s are you talking about?
By Jeanne Sligh
September 23, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
I will pray for Ms. Glass…her comments are obviously the frustrations of a person who is hurting inside, who feels she has no one to rely on in this crazy world but herself…if she only knew the love and support she could have by giving her heart to Jesus…mercifully and thankfully, God loves her inspite of herself, as He does all of His children. I hope Ms. Glass will respond to my email because I would love to share the joy of His Word with her. Our Founding Fathers knew of Whom they spoke when they included God in their plans for our country…they knew how important faith is to a people. I truly hope Ms. Glass will discover the blessings of faith.
By kimberly
September 23, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
The planet’s immune system is trying to expel us, and rightly so.
By FatMoose
September 23, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this
mit,
It is a given that tab has no money. How many rich people do you know that use words like “goober?” And have such a lack of education.
Not self made anyways. Maybe lotto (would be mice if that was the case - lotto winners ALWAYS have miserable endings to their lives) or His Daddy gave it to him; explaining his idolizing Bush: (dumb) x (rich) = (No Clue)sq
By Scott
September 23, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this
sorry…should have read “which of Vonnegut’s ideas are you refering to?”
By taboga
September 23, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
FO3,
As I said, I do not speak Gooberish. You and whoever you are referring to, obviously communicate well in that tongue.
Was the hidden message on some newspaper on a plaque in a Court House that said: God is dead…? Or was it: Paul is dead…?
I must apologize for my ignorance FO3. But I don’t live in the imaginary world that you little goobers live in. And as such, I am at a disadvantage when it comes to deciphering your native drivel…
By taboga
September 23, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
FootMouse is back with his childishness I see. You been talking with birds on your floating house again today?
By mit
September 23, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
in other words, taboga doesn’t know.
jeanne, i think ms. glass will be just fine. well, until you come knocking on her door at 7 in the morning. Why do ya’ll do that anyway? Has that ever worked?
By FatherOfThree
September 23, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
Repost of Tabs rules of conduct:
Confront Tab with a logical arguement; he will be childish and sarcastic.
Stump him, and he will run away for a while.
Pose a direct question; he will ignore you, and begin baiting a new topic.
He is totally unable to start a topic and stay on point. This grandious behaviour is common in kids who feel they do not measure up to those around {hence the hate for educated people}; so I am thinking he is either an emotionally/mentally damaged man/woman who feels that since no one has shown love for him (can you image what family structure would produce such hate?); he will get the world back by showing no love.
Anyone have something to add;) Too funny and should be stickied at the top of each blog!