Woman to Woman

By taboga

September 12, 2005 07:38 AM | Link to this

Why accept the premise of this question?

The Feds reponse was about as good as can be expected from a cumbersome federal agency. If there was any failure - it was with the City of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana. Not to mention the “poor”, who didn’t have the wherewithal to evacuate the city as they were instructed.

National Guard troops being in Iraq - had nothing to do with this.

By Guillermo

September 12, 2005 08:09 AM | Link to this

I think the response was what should be expected from a federal agency. Red tape is a constant in anything that has to do with the government. Look at getting a tag or license.

By RF

September 12, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

The blame for slow response falls on Governor Blanco of Louisiana. I saw Mayor Nagin of NO on “Meet the Press” and even he stated that the federal response, while slow, was appropriate when the scope of the problem was realized. When asked about the Governor, his words were carefully chosen but he did say that the governor was not communicating with local authorities and failed to enact state response options, like the National Guard (plenty of whom were available and should have been deployed BEFORE the hurricane hit). Unfortunately, we look too quickly to the feds to handle problems for us. When Hugo and Andrew hit in the nineties, disaster relief groups mobilized and were working before the feds had a chance to bring in anyone. And noone was offered $2000 checks then!!

By jpetz

September 12, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

Both local and state governments are partly responsible for the situation in New Orleans. But that fact in no measure absolves the Bush administration of its decision to underfund FEMA and put an incompetent at the helm. To those that absolve Bush - perhaps you feel the federal government has no role in such disasters. And if thats your point, then you must be one of the compassionate conservatives I’ve heard about.

By RF

September 12, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

Whether conservative or liberal, one must realize that the federal government is designed to respond AFTER states ask for it. State sovereignty is important, and state governments are SUPPOSED to have disaster relief plans in place that emphasize first response while organizations like FEMA gather data and resources. FEMA isn’t designed to be a first-response organization, and should have a few days to assess where resources are most needed. Even Mayor Nagin admitted that while his city utilized some of its disaster plan, noone including himself and the governor had any idea that their own plans were woefully inadequate. We simply cannot blame the president for slow response when Blanco herself didn’t do anything to try and help her own for days! And this is not a compassionate conservative view. I base this on logic—the federal government gives away enough to many as it is- the govenment is NOT a wellspring of money and resources to take the place of correct planning. Noone in the state of Louisiana was served correctly by the state’s own administration. When the feds came in, the help began.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this

While I definitely don’t think the federal response was timely at all, I don’t think the troops in Iraq affected the response. Also the Governor of Louisiana does share a lot of blame as indicated by RF.

It’s a shame so many people had to lose their lives before we are able to discover the problem in the system and fix it.

By taboga

September 12, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

The next time a disasterous storm is about to hit, just offer the “poor” $2,000.00 at a location away from the storm. But they have to be there within 24 hours in order to collect.

Problem solved.

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

Is this a serious topic? Even Blanco has conceded that there were more than enough National Guards in LA.

Failures all around, from local to state to Federal. City of New Orleans did not even follow its own procedures for this(disasters), and then to see all those flooded school buses?

I work with a National Guardsman, well several, and one in particular specializes in supply air drops from C-130s. He says in 5 hours time they could have air-dropped all kinds of supplies to the Superdome/Convention Center. Not in LA but close enough. But he never got called-up.

Now, the issue that National Guardsmen are even being sent overseas, a whole other topic. I thought the whole concept was for local needs. Not to be construed as anti-Bush or anti-Iraq war, I would think that regardless. But it would affect local police departments, etc. But have not heard that a manpower shortage was the real problem.

Yeah, I read that National Geographic a few months ago. Guess noone in a position of Government Management did, which is where the failures were, at all levels.

But it WAS nice to see Bush’s approval rating finally go below 40percent. 38 percent was it? hahahahahahah

And at least this topic will continue to give something for the members of the German and Red Armies to go at it. Just trying to speak woman-to-woman blogspeak…LOL

By Archie

September 12, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

We have had hurricane evacuations here in South Carolina and the governor at the time took some harsh criticism(Hodges) and as a result the next time he(Hodges) ordered and evacuation of South Carolina coasts it went smoother. I do think the federal response was affected by resources committed abroad since 300 plus troops were pulled from abroad, but the problem with the Katrina response lies first with the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisianna. Mr Bush did not respond as a good leader but otherwise he’s taking heat for the person under him namely Mr. Brown. This Brown person is not competent. When you have Gingrich,Lott and others breaking the party ranks to criticize the government you know that someone screwed up pretty bad. Hopefully the criticism will result in improved performance by all government officials local,state, and federal.

By Brian Curtis

September 12, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

See, all those people who didn’t evacuate were refusing to evacuate as ordered! After all, everybody has a car, right? And nobody relies on public transportation or has special needs (such as being elderly handicapped), right? And if they don’t—well, screw ‘em. They’re poor, they deserve to die.

This is the party of values that we’ve heard so much about. You know—“values” like putting friends in cushy jobs they’re not qualified for, and staging media stunts to intercede in the medical care of a brain-dead woman. “Values,” you see. You certainly can’t expect an emergency-management agency to, oh, for example, manage an emergency situation, can you? Heck no!

I wonder how many times Bush has to screw up before people start holding him accountable—or at least stop worshipping him as the Second Coming of Christ?

By RF

September 12, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

And of course, there’s the whole issue of people living below sea level and complaining about government response…seems to me if you live in a fish bowl you shouldn’t be allowed to complain about water! I love N’awlins…as a spot to VISIT. And let’s face it, you live there you need to have a plan to get out before the water rises to the attic! Most Floridians and coastal folks all over the US know how and when to evacuate and don’t cry when storms come. What about Florida and all its hurricanes last year? They got out and/or got ready, and Jeb Bush didn’t sit around waiting to mobilize what he had. Louisiana better learn from this!!

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

And any federal money NOT put into levee reinforcement would not have taken affect for several more years. And the first/main one that broke, the 17th Street Canal, was already considered 100 percent done.

But I am sure they are going to rebuild. Always amazed me to see that Mississippi/Missouri Rivers flooding several years back, interviewing Bubba on TV, his place in a flood-plain wiped away, as he says “Well, we’ll just have to rebuild”. Great, in a flood plain, rebuild. I am sure we will see you on TV again.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

Great comment Brian

By taboga

September 12, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

Brian,

Are you on your period this week?

I would think that even a rube Liberal like you - would not believe that 10’s of thousands of people who didn’t leave New Orleans, were all handicapped…

Offer all those who “don’t have a car”, the $2,000.00 before a storm and watch how quick they evacuate the city!

By Renee

September 12, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

If they couldn’t leave I seriously doubt they could leave no matter how big the carrot hanging in front of their nose. Something about poor, not having it, not being able to, people just don’t understand. If I was offered $10m and all I had to do was fly to Russia within the next 24 hours, hell, even the next week, I couldn’t do it. I can’t make my bank account something it’s not, it just can’t be done. I would be upset, but what could I do, nothing. And, you also have a lot of people who chose not to leave. Everytime a hurricane comes, there is an evacuation order. Some people have been through storm after storm and they just stay. There were individuals who had been through Camille, and they choose to stay during the storm. And yes, people are disabled, elderly, or just simply POOR, they don’t have the means to make it from day to day much less up and move their family at a moments notice. They have no where to go, no means to get their, no gas money, etc… I don’t see why people don’t understand that some people COULD NOT leave. Who would choose to die. I saw a report on TV that really made me mad. The report stated that Brittany Spears parents house (in Louisiana) sustained minor damage (who cares) and they are ok because they took their private jet to California. Well la de da! I would put my money on the fact that the percentage of people who had the means to leave and didn’t is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the people who did not have the means to leave, and couldn’t.

By Dusty

September 12, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this

Taboga is right. I do not accept the premise of this blog. As soon as I read the question, I knew AJC was in its usual “bash Bush” mode of intention. How good it would be to have a local news source that is not dedicated to undermining our own government, both at home and abroad. But it is not to be.

Diane compares the death toll from Katrina with American casualties in Iraq. There is no connection between the two. Why not compare deaths from auto accidents with Katrinas, or deaths from smoking or deaths from obesity? Again, there is no connection there. Most of Diane’s article is NOT unbiased journalism but a partisan fairy tale of diminished realities.

By RF

September 12, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Blame the governor of Louisiana first, Brian. She’s one of those Bible-thumping, no-sex Republicans too, isn’t she?? No matter how you argue it, this isn’t Bush’s fault entirely. Not that I always like the man, but I’ll bet Kerry’s response wouldn’t have been much different. That was a presidential election that called for picking the best of the worst! And for those people who “couldn’t” leave NO, don’t they phones? A phone call and someone would have been there to pick them up. I know some probably weren’t able to leave, but many who stayed and are now awaiting their 2000 bucks with the rest were just too stubborn. Noone deserves to die, but don’t blame the feds if people who were WARNED didn’t choose to leave. And speaking of elderly and handicapped, isn’t Florida the state most populated by those two groups? You don’t hear them whining do you? They know how to live with hurricanes and when to leave.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

BC is such an idiot. Typical liberal rant. So the local government isn’t at fault? The feds had given them money to build up the levies and they didn’t do it. But the feds should be responsible for everything in our lives. Lets just give them our entire paycheck and let them handle everything because we are all non-thinking sheep who need the government to run everything for us. Who needs freedom.

By Brian Curtis

September 12, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

RF: I never said it was entirely Bush’s fault—but a good portion of the blame certainly lies with him and his habit of appointing clueless incompetents to important positions.

Dusty: Ahh, yes… wouldn’t it be wonderful to have a media that never criticizes or questions the government the way it’s supposed to? THEN it would be the fascist paradise every tyrant dreams of. Pesky ol’ media, not always doing as they’re told…. Patriotism demands blind, unquestioning obedience, dammit!

Renee has already pointed out how out-of-touch Bush and his cronies are with everyday, working-class people. Yes, including those despicable POOR people who don’t have cars! Much as the neanderthal neocons want to pretend that poor people are all lazy and stupid (that way we don’t have to extend basic services and can abandon this veneer of “civilization”), it’s just not true.

Once again—as with Terri Schiavo—the far right’s true agenda is peeking through, and people are rightly disgusted with what they see.

By Brian Curtis

September 12, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Jack is such an idiot. The freedom to starve and die while the government does NOTHING with the tax money they’ve taken, the promises they’ve made, and the agencies to set up. Yeah, that’s freedom all right. Only it’s the government’s freedom from accountability that you’re proposing.

Of COURSE the local government is at fault. So is the state government. And so (much as anyone may try to deny it) is the federal. Is anyone seriously going to pretend that Bush’s appointee to head FEMA was based on qualifications and ability?

By thom

September 12, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Brian, the local government has most of the responsibility here. The mayors have the eyes and ears in the local areas and lets the governor what they need. It appears that the plans for evacuation was either not communicated to the governor or the governor dropped the ball and not ready to have the federal government step in. The other problem is how good was the evacuation plan in the first place. Your send 30,000 people to a staging area and you have no equipment and food and water and no one in charge.

By RF

September 12, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

Sorry Brian if I misread you. I think every president I’ve been around to know has appointed his share of idiots. Something about politics seems to bring out the idiocy doesn’t it?? As to the poor many here want to feel soory for- has it ever occurred to folks that people in this country who are physically and mentally capable have the OPPORTUNITY to build themselves a life? The elderly and handicapped have no choice and deserve help. In what other country do able-bodied folk get to have government help to pay rent, utilities, food, and get medical attention? In being so generous we have created a generation of folks who choose to be poor because it’s easier. The suffering I’ve seen after Katrina makes me lay awake at night, but I don’t get the excuse of being too poor to evacuate…

By Dusty

September 12, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

Brian Curtis, you don’t even know the meaning of patriotism, do you? Nor do you know the meaning of ethical journalism.

False accusations and inplications do not support government.

Journalism created in an atmosphere of partisanship is biased and unreliable. It is just a one way street for propaganda.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Poor people are going to be part of this and every other country for as long as I know. The way of the world is that some people have big bucks and some don’t. I don’t think on a daily basis anyone needs a handout unless it is someone who cannot work, cannot do for themselves. If they are poor and making ends meet that is what happens sometimes. Some people have no skills, some people have bad luck, some people for whatever reason do choose poverty over making a decent living. Some of them do work, make the best living they can, with the skils they have and work check to check. They don’t commit crimes, they are just poor. I have always been the person that would not give any money to beggars downtown (especially and able-bodied man). But I think the Katrina disaster has made me look at things differently. Although I have not felt an overwhelming amount of compassion in all honesty for the poor, I do feel differently. These people did not deserve to die, did not deserve to go through what they were going through (in my opinion) and it broke my heart, watching it day after day on CNN sometimes I would just cry. I try to imagine myself in that situation. And it could be me, although I make decent money and have great living conditions. A devastation could happen and that could have been me wading through the sewer waters. Fortunately I was not in the area where it happened, but I could have been. I don’t think my generation is used to natural disasters happening to us, always around us but never to us. The tsunami affected me, but honestly not like Katrina, it was just close to home. I realized that could have been me. I’m expecting the criticism for my comment but that is just my feelings. .

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Renee I think you have a valid point. We haven’t had to deal with disaster on nearly this scale in our lifetime, so we don’t know how to feel about it. I have learned a great deal of compassion too and have taught my children about it. Something like this affects us and makes us think—or at least it should. It isn’t about politics, it’s about people.

And you know, being poor and making ends meet is what we call middle-class isn’t it??

By lozen

September 12, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

It seems as if all of them - city, state and federal gov. failed. But a more important question for me is how it has come about that we have some people in this country with absolutely no compassion for their fellow human beings. Where does that attitude come from? Blaming the victim is, of course, a way to believe this could never happen to you. There’s just no excuse for poverty, mental illness, or physical illness in the USA! You can tell what kind of society we are by the way we treat the weakest members of our society.

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

Lozen I haven’t really seen anyone say there’s no excuse for mental or physical illness here. Why when we discuss poverty do we always have to use the trump card of handicapped people? Noone would deny the handicapped or aging the assistance they need, at least not from what I’ve read so far. But can you honestly say, as an obviously educated person, that as a society we should subsidize the life of a person who is mentally and physically capable of working but didn’t want to get an education? Can we really justify that? I just don’t think we can. Sure, let’s help those with handicaps and illness, but don’t use them to cover the handicap of laziness and lack of education when it’s available to all. I’m actually a very liberal person, but in my classroom I see the result of helping too much when one can learn to take of himself. We give too much to many who could do for themselves…

By taboga

September 12, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

Lozen,

Your attitude about the poor is exactly what is wrong with all of this.

You act as if they have nothing to do with their circumstances. It’s always the catch-all: Society.

Society is to blame, it’s society’s fault, society doesn’t do this and society doesn’t do that.

Full grown and able folks, somehow don’t have the ability to leave town (by the thousands) to avoid a devastating storm, and of course - society is to blame.

These people are never held responsible for their lot in life. And that’s why they keep multiplying.

What new handout will you think of next - government supplied vehicles for the poor so that they can avoid natural disasters?

By lozen

September 12, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

Renee, good for you! You are so right; it could have been you, me, any of us on this blog. We’ve had tornados and flooding but fortunately for us, it’s never been so bad here. Dusty, I’m sure you would have been right there with your “Heil Hitler” salute if you’d been in Germany in the 30’s and 40’s. Lock-step jingoism does not create unbiased and reliable journalism. It creates propaganda.

By Dave

September 12, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

Even as the entire Bush family tries to divert attention, they only succeed in putting their feet into their mouths and making it worse.
This nation deserves what it gets for putting the most corrupt administration into power since Nixon. The GOP has outdone themselves through moral deficit and lies.

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Brian, take heart. While sitting in the parking lot known as I-285 this morning, I noticed a significant reduction in the number of “w” stickers on the cars of my fellow commuters. And I always notice this, because I think daily, “What is WRONG with these dimwits? Hello! Everything he touches turns to DOO-DOO!” But looking around this morning… barely saw half a dozen! There may be hope for America yet… IF it’s not already too late.

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

The purpose of the media is to present someone’s perception of events, so it will always be biased. I wonder what the media’s perception of this disaster would be if a democrat were in office? Look back at Clinton and how the press hounded him during his “scandal”. Face it, the media LOVES controvery and controversy sells papers. No matter what anyone thinks, the democrats wouldn’t have handled this any better in light of demands lately for homeland security. As a nation, we took our focus off of natural disaster and focused on man-made. Democrat or Replublican doesn’t matter, it’s the controversy that the media wants. Have you seen Anderson Cooper with a bad hair day since he arrived on the Gulf coast? He just loves to do what the media does- report suffering so we can blame “society” and the government.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this

RJ I agree with you, you have several good points. But not to argue with you, I feel like just like poor people are a part of our society, so are unintelligent people. There are people that just “didn’t get it” in school. They were not smart enough to pick up the very basics in school. Were they mentally ill? No, not as far as I knew, they just weren’t smart. Basic reading and arithmetic was the best they could do. Now I don’t know the extent of the effort they put forth so I can’t speak on that but I know they were pulled out of our classrooms and taken to LD (learning disabled) classes. So when these people get older, they still can’t do much, they make families and they do work every day, but their job may not amount to much (in our eyes). There are people out there who are lazy and don’t want to do anything but collect a check on the first of the month but there are others who really can’t do any better. And these jobs that dont pay much (example janitor, fast food worker) have to be done by someone. I don’t think it makes them any less than a person. That is their best. But we still look down, call them poor, tell them they need to do better etc. Once again, this is not every scenario with every poor person, but I think it holds validity.

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Barb was right when she said many of the people in the Astrodome are better off. At least now some of them have A/C and a fairly safe place to sleep. Have any of you ever seen the projects in N’awlins?? Give me a cot in the Astrodome any day over that!

By lozen

September 12, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

RF, But can you honestly say, as an obviously educated person, that as a society we should subsidize the life of a person who is mentally and physically capable of working but didn’t want to get an education? Can we really justify that? I just don’t think we can. Sure, let’s help those with handicaps and illness, but don’t use them to cover the handicap of laziness and lack of education when it’s available to all. No, I don’t believe in enabling people to live off others! The difference between us may be that I just don’t believe there are that many people who choose to take advantage of the system. Yes. There are some who do just as there are white collar people who take advantage of the system, government officials who take advantage of the system. You choose to believe there were many, many people in N.O. who were doing, are doing that. I choose to believe there were a few. We do not have equal starts in life, equal I.Q.’s, equal upbringings, equal opportunities. One person is born into a wealthy family, with an I.Q. of 90, has every opportunity, and becomes president! Another is born into poverty with an I.Q. of 90 and has very little opportunity. I still say I’d rather my taxes support those poor people in N.O. (even the opportunists) than the Savings & Loan money taken from the American taxpayer by the president’s brother a few years ago! Am I the only one who remembers that?

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

I agree with you to an extent Lozen and certainly wouldn’t deny anyone from N.O. right now some assistance. I see kids every day 90 or higher IQ’s who just simply don’t care. And some are rich and others poor. We help them best by giving them opportunity and choice. We TRY to motivate them to do for themselves, and then they have to choose to do so. Money doesn’t help in the long run. The old saying about feeding a man a fish applies here. Let’s give them what they need to survive temporarily and then help them get a job and help themselves a little.

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Kimberly - You may have noticed less W stickers since they are mostly/often on SUVs. And we know there are fewer of them on the road nowadays. LMAO

Anybody been reading how this population shift may eventually affect the Electoral College? As well as affect DeLay’s/Texas House Texas gerrymandering?

Speaking of the Savings and Loan scandal, did you all hear that in the late 80s/ in Texas, what did you get if you bought a toaster? A free Savings&Loan. hahahahahahah

By lozen

September 12, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

Seeing Poverty after Katrina

Hurricane Katrina brought the specter of urban poverty in America into all of our living rooms. In this program Dr. David Hilfiker helps explain how concentrated centers of poverty formed in our cities. Our spiritual well-being is wrapped up with the poor, he says, and so is the future of our country. He provides realistic ideas for the way forward.

In 1983 Hilfiker moved from rural Minnesota to inner-city Washington, D.C. to live with his family and practice medicine. He is the author of Not All of Us Are Saints: A Doctor’s Journey with the Poor, and Urban Injustice: How Ghettos Happen.

To be broadcast on “Speaking of Faith” on WABE-FM radio 7:00pm Wed., Sept 14.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

The only thing better about the astrodome is that they are not living in the filty superdome anymore. They are not wading through miles of sewer water hungry holding their babies. So of course they are much more content at the astrodome. To say they are living better with no privacy on a cot in the middle of a football field is better than the projects is not correct. Maybe the projects are not very nice, but I can assure you that it is not worse than the conditions they are living in now. Barbara saying that was insensitive at the least and very ignorant on her part. I really don’t see people in the astro dome laying back saying “this is my new home, these are the best conditions yet, I’m not leaving here” as they start decorating the 40 yard line.

By Dave

September 12, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

The majority of Bush-voters that I’ve talked with in the Suwanee area have a surface understanding of current events, mostly from watching TV. They say they don’t trust the media, but they seem to form a lot of opinions based on the Boortz radio show and Fox News. It’s no wonder they are so out of touch with reality. You can’t even discuss politics with them because they base their arguements on false premises.
It really upsets me to see my country going down the tubes so quickly. How you can vote for people who claim to love God and country, yet send jobs and factories overseas, put policy PR and spin over actions and honesty, and discredit veterans, is beyond me.

By Ken

September 12, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

Brian… You are an intelligent individual. I do not understand why you can’t see that the Mayor Nagin should be the first in line to receive blame.

If you were the mayor of a city that basically sits in a fish bowl, and you knew that a category 4-5 hurrican was bearing down on you, wouldn’t you follow the set evacuation plan? Not if you’re Mayor Nagin. He took the same indifferent attitude that most folks in New Orleans have always taken… The hurricane will miss us and we won’t have any issues. Better safe than sorry.

I wonder how this would be spun if the mayor were white and not African-American. I suspect he’d be crucified for not evacuating the poor population in the city.

It is not the responsibility of the Federal Government to oversee every detail of how a city cares for itself. If so, why would we even have a ciy government. Hammer away at Bush and this Administration for issues that encompass the national agenda.

This was a unfortunate natuaral disaster compounded by a bunch of incompetant city and state officials who totally screwed the pooch.

By taboga

September 12, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

They’re IN the Astrodome because there’s MONEY to be had there!

They’re standing in lines to receive debit cards worth thousands of dollars. And as soon as they get back out on the streets - the Liquor Stores will be the better for it.

If there was no money to be had in the Astrodome - those folks would be living with their relatives or friends. Some of you not only want to pretend that these people could not afford to leave town before the storm, but now you want to pretend that thousands of people have no friends or relatives to stay with and have to live in a shelter…

Amazing.

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

Nagin is actually on the record, when grilled about the screwups, as saying “Com’on this is New Orleans, we are a party town, get over it” or words very similiar.

By Brian Curtis

September 12, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Ken: I agree that the mayor of New Orleans screwed up—badly. So did the governor. But so did FEMA and its appointed (incompetent) head and out-of-touch administration allies.

There’s plenty of blame to go around. And if Bush had a spine, he’d accept his share instead of trying to pretend that incompetence is suddenly a virtue.

By RF

September 12, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Renee if you had ever been there, you’d know the projects in N.O. as in most cities are worse that “not nice”—they are deadly! And the Astrodome for most of them will be a starting point to a better life I hope. But they will have to be determined to make a new life, as is anyone who survives such a tragedy.

Dave the reason those jobs went overseas was because labor unions, who initially were designed to protect workers, became greedy and demanded a person be paid $20 an hour to turn a screw on and assembly line so a car would cost 30,000 dollars and last a year. Fairness is one thing, but the demands of most unions are outraegous these days.

Now, back to the subject at issue here, I’m not saying there aren’t many who try and just can’t get ahead. I don’t mind helping them and supporting them for a time. I’m just saying I think welfare ought to be temporary and scaled back as a person learns to work and advances. Don’t leave them on it forever—if they can, make them work and pay at least a little of their way.

By Archie

September 12, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Lozen you are right in your earlier posts today between 11:00 am and 11:45 am. I attended a conference where I had to role play as an unemployed person seeking benefits and the other person was a claimtaker,well I was told to whine and complain,but the point of the exercise was to be more compassionate. The person playing the role of claimtaker was anything but that, the person gave a small speech about “get up and go get a job”, “I am tired of poor people”, and it struck me after hearing that,that some people don’t know what compassion is. Some people don’t know that 85% of people born between 1957 and 1964 have received unemployment insurance benefits. Some people do make mistakes and have bad luck and it is a good thing that our leaders,republican and democrat support programs that help the people they lead. This attitude about the poor has only become strong since the advent of Limbaugh,and other shows of his ilk. Of course one should work but we’re talking about Katrina and some people simply didn’t have transportation and that’s where your government steps in versus having folk dying in the street. How in the heck can you discuss liberating a foreign people when you don’t have any compassion for people living in your country? As incompetent as our leaders,conservative and liberal, can be at times, at least they understand the big picture of compassion for the American citizen. That is why you have an unemployment compensation program that will run for 26 weeks and sometimes longer in tough economic times.

By ZuckermanOpinion

September 12, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/345654p-294887c.html

By Renee

September 12, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

nobody knew that before hand that $2000 debit cards would be given out, and once it is given out what other money is to be had there. I think you are pretending that everyone has this large family with all these life lines that they can use when hard times come. I think it’s amazing that some people have absolutely no compassion and then everyone gets grouped in the category that they spend their money at the liquor stores. It just can’t be possible that they bought food, clothing for their kids, plane tickets or bus tickets to get to a family member that they might not have the means to do before. I happen to do well myself and I don’t have family. Not ANY family except my child so should something happen, nope no family. I know others in my situation, some doing better than me, some worse, some doing about the same. But whatever you think, I don’t care, I can’t argue about it today.

By Ken

September 12, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

Lozen… The problem with your argument is that there are too many folks out there who have come from disadvantaged situations and made a great success out of their lives.

I know many people whose families could barely make ends meet but through hard work and sacrifice they made something of their lives. They went to college or trade school or simply started a job and worked hard to become a skilled at what they do.

Does that mean they didn’t have to work harder than someone who was born into means? No. Does that mean that others didn’t have an easier time of it? No. But that’s the way the ball bounces.

You see, I completely disagree with you. I believe the vast majority of the people out their on public assistance are there because of decisions they made, whether it is here in Atlanta, in New Orleans or any other area.

You may not believe in enabling people to live off of others, but unfortunately, the culture has already been established. Ever since the 1930s, the government has been turned into a caretaker. It is much easier to give away others people’s money than to tell recipients they will no longer be receiving other people’s money.

By RF

September 12, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

You may be heading too far right, Taboga, but I gotta give you points for the money thing! Last year, when not one but like three of four hurricanes came withing striking distance of my brother’s house in Florida, noone was going in with checks and supplies. Noone was there to go to—they piled into their worn-out car and nursed it along until they reached relatives who scraped up some money to help them. They went home and cleaned out the flooded house themselves. FEMA was asked to come in or expected. And noone in Florida blamed the president, they blamed Jean, Charlie, and Mother Nature. But the point is, they are technically, financially poor, but they did and do what they can to survive. Like most (80% according to Nagin yesterday) they left and got out while they could. Sometimes you gotta simply TRY to help yourself.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

I’ve seen projects in many cities, and although it is not a place I would like to live, and it could be considered “deadly” the astrodome cannot possibly be looked at as better by any stretch of the word. These people have no privacy, no cleanliness and they are not much safer. Everybody who lives in the projects, although poor, or less fortunate, is not nasty, a criminal or anything else. They raise their children, sure there is more crime that we can see, but you can go to Buckhead right now, and there are deadly parts. You just don’t see it. Drugs are plentiful, money laundering, weapons the whole nine, it’s just more well off people therefore it doesn’t look as “deadly”. People who have lived in the projects are not happier in the conditions they are living in now, they definitely don’t feel like they have hit the jackpot and living large.

By Ken

September 12, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Brian… The problem with your ranting, however, is that you continue to hammer at the President and not hammer at the state and local government.

That makes you look like someone who simply hates the President, which I’m sure you are.

That makes you look like a partisan hack rather than the intelligent person I believe you are.

The bottom line is people were left in the city because they either refused to leave, or couldn’t leave. The ones who couldn’t leave had an evacuation plan at their disposal had the Mayor not badly dropped the ball. None of that should fall at the feet of FEMA.

By Dusty

September 12, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

No, Lozen & RF, you still don’t get the difference between truth and facts. If I had been in Germany under Hitler and presented the TRUTH of his oppression, I would have been executed as were Bonhoffer and others. I want truth in government, not FALSE information presented as truth. Bush gets a lot of stuff dumped on him which sounds like liberals still in potty training. Very little of it is worth a “hill of beans”, much less the truth.

Journalism/aka newspapers and TV, are supposed to present FACTS for our evaluation, not some reporter’s version. Editorials, blogs and forums are different. They allow for “trash in and trash out”.

By Chantel

September 12, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Here’s what I don’t understand— so many people are viewing this as a state problem, not a national problem. In my opinion, when more than one state is affected (four, as a matter of fact) AND there are Americans dying in the street, it is a national problem. This was obviously beyond the capacity of the local government to handle, as stipulated by the National Response Plan housed under the Department of Homeland Security (The Homeland Security Department said that Wednesday it had declared Hurricane Katrina an “incident of national significance,” triggering for the first time a coordinated federal response to states and localities overwhelmed by disaster.) It is a national problem and it is the responsibility of the federal government to act.

By RF

September 12, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

Dusty, yeah I think I do get the difference, and I also know that opinions are opinions based on what one feels. Don’t start name-calling unless you can take what you give. Noone is better in this country for supporting either side-if you read my posts, you’d realize I defended the president, which I think qualifies me as passing potty-training.

And Renee, I’m not trying to create an argument, but I have to wonder if you’ve really ever visited a housing project. Some are better, but most offer little more than dry shelter. There are indeed illegal things occurring in Buckhead and every other part of town, but not with the frequency that things happen in most housing projects. And why is that? I’m not sure I know the answer either, but I feel certain it has a lot to do with lack of personal responsibilty and giving too many people a free ride. Long term the Astrodome isn’t going to be better, but for right now it works. And they’ve placed most of those folks there in homes across the country. Definitely better than the housing projects. I’m hoping it will motivate those folks to do better, that’s all.

By RF

September 12, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Chantel—noone’s saying it ISN’T a national problem, but many are saying, and logically, that the states have FIRST responsibility. When their own plans fail then the federal authorities can come in and help. We simply can’t look to “big-brother” to come running in at the first sign of trouble. As a parent, I’d have looted and done what I had to do to feed my kids, but I have to think I’d have found some way to safer ground. The federal gov’t can’t and shouldn’t be expected to respond first. When asked, they responded. It is indeed a national problem, but each state has to do its part first, and Louisiana didn’t…

By Jack

September 12, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

The reason why housing projects are trashed is because the residents don’t pay to live there. If one had to pay for something, they would appreciate it and try to care for it. When something is given to them, they don’t appreciate it or care for it. Its free. Look at the public housing here vs. Russia. BIG difference.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

RENEE - We’ve disagreed in the past, but boy are we on the same page today.

I experienced the same overwhelming sadness watching both CNN and FOX News, and my heart still aches at this moment. You’ve echoed my sentiments exactly.

If nothing else, this disaster has magnified the class divide. In my opinion, Mayor Nagin, Gov. Blanco, Michael Brown, Pres. Bush, and LOTS OF PEOPLE IN BETWEEN handled this incorrectly. I’m neither totally liberal nor totally conservative - and frankly, I don’t think it matters. The questions are, what was done wrong and who was responsible.

There were obviously some people who could have evacuated, but chose not to. Those people took total responsibility for the consequences of their decisions, and in my opinion should not be compensated for any loss other than what is due them via their insurance policies.

However, there were a great number of people who would have evacuated if they had the means to. I think Renee said earlier that if she were offered $10m in Russia, she simply couldn’t get to it. What a clear example. I am very familiar with impoverished families. I can attest to the fact that there are some who, once their rent and bills are paid, don’t have $3 left over to get themselves a pair of pantyhose or trouser socks.

I’m certainly not saying that none of the people who stayed were able to leave. I’m not saying that many or most of the people who stayed were able to leave. It doesn’t matter whether it was 1, 1000, or 10,000. The point is, as a people, we can stand to be more compassionate toward those who find themselves in situations they need a little help getting out of.

Let he who has never made a bad decision in his life cast the first stone.

By raylene

September 12, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Jack isn’t an idiot. That is all I have to say on this subject. Thank you.

By thom

September 12, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, take heart I have already seen Governor Blanco for president bumper stickers on shopping carts !!

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

RF/Others:

While I’ve never lived in a housing project, I’ve worked with quite a few people (“clients” so to speak) who have lived in them.

Regardless of whether housing projects are what we would consider comfortable living - they are HOME to many of the impoverished. And, I know for myself that HOME is 9 times out of 10 better than any place else. Personally, I live in a decent home - nothing fancy, just a comfortable home for my family and I. I travel a bit for my job and usually stay at hotels way more upscale than I could afford… and wayyyy nicer than my house. But, it never fails. After one night away, I’m always ready to come HOME. Not just to see my family, but also to see my bed. My shower. My kitchen. My couch. Open my blinds. Vacuum my floor.

No matter how poor the living conditions in a housing project, I would doubt that their residents would choose even an “upscale shelter” than their own homes.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

Thank you Raylene. (you sweet thing)

By E. Lewis

September 12, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t know that it is simply the allocation of resources overseas that is the problem. It certainly doesn’t help, but perhaps the point should be where we are locating the assets we do have. The war in Iraq and the involvement in Afghanistan are bad enough, but cutting taxes when we are at war exacerbates things. Funding for basic infrastructure needs is being cut while other projects are being gorged. We seem to have a White House and Congress hell-bent on “credit card” government with the notion that things will be so much better in the future that racking up all that debt won’t be a problem. Maybe we should ask the future generations, especially those who will actually have to work for a living, what they think about this.

By Dusty

September 12, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

RF, name calling is nothing new. That is the initiation rite for bloggers.

I am glad that you have passed potty training. Some don’t sound like they have. Still using the same terms.

Katrina caused great concern and anguish among Americans, including me. When Katrina turns into a tool for political advancement instead of insights into problem solving, then I become angry. Should I mention Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean as examples? Should I be proud of their insinuations and accusations? Nope. No cigar.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

And one more thing about housing projects - and any other residential communities: their homes may not be Beverly Hills mansions, but they are HOME to them, nonetheless. At home, they have a sense of community and a sense of familiarity. In many cases, they know their neighbors, they work together to raise their children, they know the local businesses… The Astrodome may have A/C and 3 meals, but I’m willing to bet any of them would trade that in TODAY - RIGHT NOW, for the small, dingy, old, hot, and maybe even roach-infested apartments that they call HOME.

By Brian Curtis

September 12, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Ken: I don’t live in New Orleans, or anywhere in Louisiana. The mayor and governor there don’t work for me.

The president, however, does. And I’m tired of watching people make excuses for his incompetence, especially when it gets people killed.

By raylene

September 12, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

You’re welcome Jack. I will be back at the end of next week. Hopefull it will be a good subject. Bye for now.

By RF

September 12, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

OMG Dusty you are soooo right about the political opportunists!! They are lining up right beside the Hollywood folks who have no idea what suffering is all about to take potshots at those who have tried to do something. I wish I could perform at a “benefit” concert and score all the brownie-points those guys are getting.

Just Being Me—what you have to realize is that while some consider these places “home”, many just see it as place to stay that’s good enough because it’s free. If more took pride in their “homes” there wouldn’t be such horrible conditions in them. And believe me, I too scrape by to pay the bills. I’ve had lots of months recently where there wasn’t any “fun money” left after the bills were paid. But I have the pride of knowing I’m doing for my kids and myself and providing the best I can. Many, many don’t appreciate what they have and never will. Look at the poor all over the world. Most don’t have anywhere near what our poor are GIVEN and don’t appreciate.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Thank you justbeingme. I was getting ready to type but you already expressed my sentiments exactly so no need.

I have visited housing projects but like referred to earlier, this is their home. Whatever anyone on the outside thinks, they are able to live there. And would definetly prefer home to the dome.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

What did Monika say when asked if she had sex with president Clinton?

Close, but no cigar.

By RF

September 12, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Renee—let’s hope this motivates many of those who are adrift to try and find better “homes” than what their poverty led them to in N.O. I agree that some live in projects and have at least a little pride in their homes, but one researched aspect of poverty is a focus on immediate gratification and a lagging sense of pride in things like a home, a job, the future. It’s the product of poverty which in this country we subsidize and even force people into. I hope and indeed pray that those who were forced to endure the Superdome will remember the experience and learn from it. One thing they have to learn is to do the best they can to avoid being back in that kind of situation. I have a sneaking suspicion the housing projects in most major cities will be overflowing with folks soon, some of whom can do better but for lack of motivation.

By Guillermo

September 12, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I hope that you realize that the money being spent at the liqour store is going right back into the pockets of somebody wealthy.

The government really doesn’t want to end the government assistance program. The money from these programs are being recycled, and once again making somebody rich. For a while, it was Michael Jordan and Tommy Hilfiger. Pampers, etc. will always make tons of money because babies will need diapers.

It’s basically like this. The government takes the money from the working class people from their paychecks, puts it into the hands of the poor, which turn it right back around and give it to the rich (the government’s friends). But the media, etc. put all the enfasis on how the poor and lazy are taking the money from the working people. The working people get angry and call the poor people lazy. Never do they stop to think that the money from the poor is going right back in the pockets of the rich.

When you think about it, it’s very clever.

By Michael H.

September 12, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

Ms. Feldhahn and the Southern Baptist Convention, to the contrary not withstanding, there was ample time to prepare for this calamity at every level of government. Meteorologists, environmentalists, and scientists as well as the media had for years reported that such a storm would come to New Orleans and they detailed almost exactly what occurred. This information was provided to the relevant government officials and they simply didn’t utilize it. The failures occurred at the level of local government which had no evacuation plans prepared and had allowed the natural barriers that would have mitigated the impact of such a storm to be eroded by development. The federal government had reduced substantially the funding available for the long term construction on the levees as well as reducing the funding available for such relief in general. A wholly unqualified individual was appointed for political reasons as the director of FEMA and his response was utterly incompetent.

It seems that with Ms. Feldhahn and other ardent Bush supporters that there never is a time for “finger pointing.� She and those who share her views never cease their praise of the “leadership� of the White House but have no concept of government accountability when it comes to the repeated failures of this administration. Irrespective of whether it was botched rationale of WMD for invading Iraq or the ineptly handled post-war situation, which is as bad now as it was two years ago, there is never a time for holding this administration responsible for its actions.

Responsibility and accountability only seem to apply to democrats. Republicans could spend over $40 million of taxpayers’ money in an attempt to expose a sexual relationship that had no bearing on public policy, but ritualistic invoke the refrain that is no time for the “blame game,â€? or “finger pointingâ€? whenever the Bush administration’s actions or policies are at issue. How many people died in this storm? How many people were killed in Iraq? Accountability and responsibility matter here and it is not a question of political opportunism as it was with the conservative obession with Clinton’s sexual behavior.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

RF. I agree with your post except the part about people being “forced” into poverty. I think if the govt could force people into poverty, there would be a lot more of them. In this country, anyone with the right motivation can succeed. As long as you pay a man to do nothing, he will do nothing.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

RF - I’m afraid you don’t get it. I’m not talking about people not having any money left over after paying for the kids’ tap dance lessons, little league dues, and Boy Scouts uniforms; or the credit card charges for the entertainment system, car note, or loan for home improvements are paid for… I’m talking about some people who pay their rent, electricity, maybe a phone, and buy some groceries, and have no money left over. Those are the ones I’m talking about.

I have many, MANY months where I don’t have any “fun” money left over. To be honest, most months I don’t have money left over to go on a shopping spree, or take an unplanned weekend getaway.

However, I’ve come to realize that my idea of “fun money” is quite different because I am so very fortunate. Sometimes we all need to be reminded that the necessities in life are food, clothing and shelter. When those are paid for, I pay for cell phones, internet access, clothing, pet care, grooming, magazine subscriptions, and so many other “needs” that I can’t even count.

It helps to remember that to some people, the money I spend getting my nails done is actually “fun” money.

And by the way, not ALL residents of housing projects live there for free. Although I’ll admit that the rent they pay is drastically reduced in comparison to market rates, many of them still pay rent and many of them take pride in their homes.

I’m trying so hard to continue to be civil, but your stereotypical and uncompassionate comments really disgust and offend me.

By Beverly Miller

September 12, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

I believe Bush’s thinking is wrong! We need the army here in this country to protect our borders and shore up our coastline. He throws out ideas that are ultimately shelved. He claims to be a Christian but had a born-again Christian executed to prove a point. Is he or isn’t he a Christian? He is finally getting personally involved in Katrina’s destruction, but praises Renquist who was a racist, as reported. He is electing a Supreme Court Justice who is from the Upper Class. He has made a mockery of the constitution. His accidentally killed someone in an auto accident but was let off because of her class. It is so obvious he is out of touch with American middle class values. It is known by those in the know that the voting machines were fixed. Dr. Brinkley from Tulane University, a historian who spoke on C-Span pointed out the historical significance of someone like President Bush and his father. The network Press has been lax in reporting what needs to be known in an unbiased manner. There are facts pertinent to this latest tragedy, and we need to prevent such a catastrophe from doing so much damage to so many. We have capable people who are trained to manage our environment. The world opinion of this country is at its loweet. We need a President who knows how to run a business, and Bush failed at his attempt. This country is working despite its President and other Government officials. We are at a turning point and need some new blood in Government as well as corporations to do the right thing. I never bought anything from Martha Stewart nor Donald Trump. Who has? I need an honest pharmacy and an honest realator, an honest politican. Even Pat Robertson apparently lied about what he said about the Syrian? ambassador, and I like Pat Robertson. Now that we know all of this, we can do what has to be done. Beverly Miller

By Beverly Miller

September 12, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Why are we staying in Iraq so long? Can’t we just get out at his point. Can’t we say, we’ve done all we can do and just leave. What effect is this going to have on the generation of children who will have no fathers? Beverly Miller

By Renee

September 12, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Guillermo, very interesting. I liked that.

By Ken

September 12, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Brian… That’s the whole point. It wasn’t incompentance on the part of the President or the Federal government that caused the incredible losses in New Orleans. It was the incompetance of the local and state governments. Little if nothing could have prevented the property loss but foresight by the appropriate leaders could have further minimized the loss of life.

They saw the warnings and did nothing about them.

They called for help too late.

Typical left-wing extremists to blame the President for that. Maybe if the people in New Orleans had elected someone a little more capable we wouldn’t be talking about this issue. Maybe if the people in Louisiana elected someone a little more capable we wouldn’t be talking about this issue. Maybe if the mayor and governor weren’t minorities, they and not the President would be blamed for this issue.

The Federal Government can’t just come in and start calling the shots anytime they believe the local folks are making mistakes. If they did that, then the left-wingers would start calling them fascists.

By Whiley

September 12, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

Everything went wrong in N.O. Not one person or group is responsible. The only thing I know for sure is that if a cat-5 hurricane was bearing down on me, I would pack my valuables & other family members & hit the road. I’d walk it with carts if I had to. Especially if I had lived in a city BELOW sea level. I’m not convinced so many people had no way to evacuate. Not evacuating if you were able was just plain dumb. And now we have to give the dumb individuals money. I would rather someone had spent that money on hundreds of buses before the storm. Door to door so all had a way out.

By RF

September 12, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me—quit trying to paint me as an insensitive fool. I happen to be one of those of whom you speak. After I pay my bills, I’m lucky to keep gas in the car to go to work for the week. We don’t go to movies, tap dance, or rent playstations. I never said that, so don’t ASSUME my lifestyle. I live in a struggling neighborhood where people are fighting to get by. And yes, I too have skipped paying the phone bill more than a few times to buy groceries. I understand poverty, but I never have asked for reduced rent or help paying my utilities (many of which are subsidized for the poor). My income level qualifies me as being at or below the poverty level, but I don’t ask for assistance because I’m too proud. And if my opinions disgust you, give up your comfortable home and move in with the proud families in a project. You wouldn’t do it, and you know it. I NEVER SAID ALLLLLL THOSE IN PROJECTS DON’T CARE. But you have to admit that if most did, then they wouldn’t be such bad places to live. I’m not attacking the poor, JUST THE LAZY who choose to be poor. And some, SOME do. If that opinion disgusts you, then so be it.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

Beverly. There are no honest politicians.

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

If they did that, then the left-wingers would start calling them fascists.

But the left calls them Fascists anyway. So would that be anything new?

sorry, couldn’t resist…LOL

By RF

September 12, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

And Just Being Me, I’m not having any trouble being civil. I’m just expressing an opinion and offering debate. Nothing personal, so don’t take it there- that’s childish.

By taboga

September 12, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

When you think about it, it’s very clever.

Don’t have to think about it - have known about it for many years.

And as the Leftists continually want the wealthy to pay more taxes - they never realize that the wealthy pass that increase back down to everyone else.

But anyway, do we have any Democrat politicians or any of the other usual Leftists do-gooders, requesting that all poor people be provided with free automobiles? Just in case they need to evacuate an area for whatever reason.

Sounds like a great idea to me!

By Renee

September 12, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

The local and state governments are to blame as well. But I think with the enormity of the devastation, yes the Federal government should step in without a formal invitation. This is not saying that a better job should not have done by the mayor and the governor but when the federal government sees this type of havoc, I do think they should go in.

By taboga

September 12, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

Renee,

I will buy you the plain ticket to Russia and we’ll split the money 50/50…?

See, you found a way to get there…

By lozen

September 12, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

I love this quote: Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative - John Stuart Mill

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Ken, DUH! First, we pay lots of tax $$ to the Federal government. We DO expect them to handle stuff. Checked the pricetag on “homeland security” lately? Yep. It’s pretty big. Second, the whole purpose of the FEDERAL emergency management agency is to manage an emergency that affects multiple state and local jurisdictions simultaneously. That means at the same time, like a giant hurricane, Einstein. Third, the assertion that the feds didn’t act quickly enough because the governor failed to initial something on the last page of something is bullcrap. FEMA’s whole charter thing empowers them to take action in an emergency, without having to wait for red tape. (DUH again!) Fourth, You’re right. Lefties DO blame the President, but only because he has FAILED MISERABLY at every single responsibility that comes with the job from which he takes so many vacations. DUH!

By RF

September 12, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

Taboga- check out the salaries of the Leftists wanting to “tax the rich”. Most of them are wealthy and own enough tax shelters to avoid taxes anyway. I found it ironic that John Kerry talked about helping the poor when he himself is a millionaire or better and married to a billionaire heiress. Do we really think he would tax HIMSELF more?? Hardly!!

By Renee

September 12, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

Well that’s quite compassionate of you Taboga. I actually expected you to ask me why I don’t have the money and give me suggestions on how I could best get the money….even you have a heart!

By Jack

September 12, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Kimberly is so nice today. Did we wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

By RF

September 12, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

And Kimberly obviously thinks that John Kerry would have handled this differently and thus better. After 9/11/2001 and the outcry for homeland security, I don’t think any president would have been focused enough on disaster relief. I’m not a card-carrying republican, and I don’t always agree with Bush or see him as Christ incarnate. But I seriously doubt the money-spending liberals would have achieved any greater success any faster. This is just an opportunity to bash the president again.

By Zack

September 12, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

There’s plenty of blame to go around. Yes, maybe the evacuees should’ve fled sooner. Then again, maybe some lacked the means to do so. Did Pres. Bush arrive too late? In my opinion, yes. It’s one thing to talk about how New Orleans will be stronger than ever, etc., but to do it several days after the fact shows a passing interest.

We’re so quick to help other countries in need, which is fine, but we need to look out for ourselves first. We don’t have health care. We don’t have a government that’s watching our backs like it should, and we get quite a bit of lip service in the process.

For the record, please don’t confuse me with the Michael Moore crowd. I have my pros and cons with the current administration; I have far more cons than pros with the Moore crowd.

Yeah, the national guard should’ve arrived sooner. I don’t see why our own citizens are ignored. Heck, we do so much for other countries and are appreciated less and less by the hour. We’re even hated by many. It’s rather similar to how women treat men nowadays. Men have the gender role of providing for their wives. If they don’t do this, they’re labeled as deadbeat dads/husbands. If they do accomplish this, they’re “suppressing their wives’ career pursuits.” This example is just one of many reasons why I don’t like or respect the feminist movement.

By taboga

September 12, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

I love this quote: Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative - John Stuart Mill

And I love this one by President Reagan:

“It’s not that Liberals don’t know anything, it’s that they know alot about things that ain’t so.”

But John Stuart Mill might have a good point. After all, it was Conservatives, right, that had a hard time trying to figure out the “Butterfly Ballot”, when all 72 second-graders that were given the same ballot - had no problem with it?

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

RF - I’m not trying to paint you as anything, and I rarely, if ever, stoop to namecalling. It bothers me to hear people - any group of people - lumped into one category. I absolutely abhor stereotypes of any kind, whether their related to poor, Mexicans, Caucasians, Blacks, Christians, Republicans, elderly, or whoever… I just hate stereotypical comments. For you, or anyone else, to make comments about what poor people have and “don’t appreciate” or where they should prefer to live, or how they take care of their homes is STEREOTYPICAL.

My 15-year old told a joke the other day and the punch line had something to do with 18 Mexicans being in a car. I told her how ignorant that “joke” was, and in my opinion, any comment that stereotypes is ignorant.

I agree with you that SOME people may choose to be poor. But, even some of those have valid sociological barriers. Not everyone has what it takes to be an overcomer. We can argue all day about whether opportunities to succeed are truly equal. We can argue about educational opportunities being, or not being, available to all. We can argue about the countless individuals who made it, in spite of their situations, not because of their situations… But, the bottom line is that every single individual is different - has different experiences, different upbringings, different adaptability, different tolerance levels, different IQs. Sure, maybe a bunch of folks in the projects don’t have to be there. But, who are we to say what a person could have done to get out? How do we know that they have the resilience? Even the knowledge of opportunities. Do you know how many minorities (yes, I’ve opened Pandora’s box) are unaware of opportunities available to them? Maybe it’s their fault they’re not aware. I’m not trying to assign blame, or make excuses - I’m simply saying that not everyone is in the same boat and can make it to shore at the same time.

By Request

September 12, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me - since we need a light-side from time-to-time, can you tell us the joke?

By Netbanker

September 12, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

My favorite quote from Shaunti this week “I know it is hard to accept, but those experienced in disaster response…” Hello?! Part of the problem with the responses was that we have an agency with the top 3 people having NO experience.

Yes, the mayor and governor are very much at fault for not even following their own plans. Hearing that people were trying to evacuate by walking across the I10 bridge only to be turned back shows a complete lack of coordination.
One item that is horribly sad is that we have apparently not learned much or more accurately DONE much with the lessons learned from 9/11. Why, 4 years later, has the FCC still not declared reserved bandwidths for emergency responders so that the various groups can communicate directly with each other? Even that simple step would have mitigated the circumstances and was one of the easiest lessons learned from 4 years ago.

Is Bush to blame personally? Of course not, but his failure to cancel trips to San Diego and Idaho in order to show up doesn’t speak well of his character at all. He certainly managed to get to Florida much more quickly last year to show his support than he did to get to the Gulf Coast.

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

RF, Yes, it is a very good opportunity to bash the president again! He could not succeed in private business, even after being born with the silver spoon in his mouth and with the backing of a wealthy ex-politico father. He isn’t succeeding in the government business either! He’s a puppet anyway and it’s really those standing behind him and pulling the strings who need to be criticized. But George is the front man and besides he makes it so easy to criticize him! I think BrianCurtis is right and some people do think he’s above reproach simply because he says he’s religious. Fortunately there are less and less of them - only 38 percent now. He’s a dry drunk (as far as we know he’s dry)! I have relatives in AA and if you truly want to understand GW look at what AA says about dry drunks.

By SteveSC

September 12, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

As to the point at issue this week: Those who believe that local and state governments should bear the primary responsibility for this tragedy should contact the President immediately and demand that, before a National Guard from any state is deployed overseas, the Legislature of that state must give its consent. In other words, if the Federal Government grabs the resources, the Feds have the responsibility to use ‘em.

By RF

September 12, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me—hopefully I haven’t lumped anyone together. I thought I was stressing the word SOME enough, but maybe not. I absolutely agree that not everyone is in the same boat, but at least in this country we are all allowed to get into a boat of some sort and paddle. What we have done as a society, I believe, is provide SOME with the boat, the paddle, and pointed them towards shore and they simply refuse to paddle. I agree there are many who because of stereotypes and cultural low expectations are going to have a harder time. I’m one of those who is expected by culture to do poorly. I only know from my own experience and I what I know is that I’m paddling my boat as fast as I can in spite of the misconceptions of culture. Those who do though tend to be too quiet while the few who cause the stereotype to be created wail for help and don’t try to help themselves. Bill Cosby has a point about us…

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

Hahaha! The “money spending liberals” hahaha! NO federal government in our history has ever spent as much as this particular Repubs-control-everything federal government. But you believe them when they say “liberals spend all the money…” Hahaha! Why don’t you look up the word “Deficit” in the dictionary. Then look up our current national budget deficit, and the seven-year history of it. Then check out the tax cuts that congress will soon be making permanent. Did you take MATH in school? Hahaha!!! “Sure, the liberals would have just thrown money at it!” Yeah, that would have been awful. That money is earning a much better return in the Caymans where Cheney and his buddies stuck their tax cuts. I need to find smarter people to argue with.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

Wow. Zack and I finally agree on something.

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

I don’t see how John Kerry or anyone else could have done a worse job!

By Netbanker

September 12, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me…”Maybe it’s their fault they’re not aware.”

I couldn’t disagree with you more. I just had a conversation with my boss last week over his taking my team to task for NOT being involved in some ad hoc meetings to which none of us was invited or made aware were taking place in a different office location until after they occurred. To summarize Rummy…there are sometimes that we know what we don’t know and others when we don’t know what we don’t know.

By Chilao

September 12, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Year 2004 was an Election Year for the Florida hurricanes. Of course any dim-witted politico would show up promptly, with as much assistance as possible.

By Van

September 12, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

The way I see it - The FEMA response was as good or better than when Andrew struck - that was a 5 day response - so things are getting better.

Now about the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana - if this is how they treat their democratic base, heaven help us. The Mayor could not for a complete thought, or he would have had the school busses on higher ground, and the Governor would have deployed HER National Guard immediately.

Also, what does it say when the people responsible for law and order leave town first - not all, but a good portion. What does it say about the sense of responsibility of some metro and school bus drivers - leaving while the leaving was good.

By Jack

September 12, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Kimberly. Liberals tax and spend. Republicans borrow and spend.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

REQUEST - Absolutely not. I agree that we could all use a bit of humor in our lives from time to time, but stereotypical humor is pretty distasteful.

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

By Request, here’s a light side for ya: George, Laura and Dick are on Air Force One coming back from a speaking engagement. As they’re looking down on flooded N.O. George says, “it looks pretty bad down there but I bet it’s worse on the ground.” Then George says , “We’re so rich I could make 50 people down there happy if I just threw 50 $100 dollar bills out the window!” Laura says, Well, George honey, if I threw out 100 $50 dollar bills I could make 100 people happy.” Dick pipes up with, “I could throw 200 $25 dollar bills out the window and make 200 people happy.” The pilot, overhearing their conversation, says to the co-pilot: “Hell, I could throw those three out the window and make millions of people happy!”

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, you took the words right outta my mouth, girlfriend. Yeah the Republicans are doing just great with our money and the deficit aren’t they?

By TT

September 12, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Check the news, y’all. “Brownie” just stepped down as FEMA director. I wonder if he will get a Medal of Freedom for his stellar work on the Katrina relief efforts? How many scapegoats does one administration need? And by the way, for those of you criticizing the system of handing out $2,000 debit cards to Katrina “victims,” did you ever stop and wonder who made the decision? Only the federal government would throw money at a problem without trying to get to the root of its cause.

By Request

September 12, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

Thanks LOZEN

Just Being Me - well, at least the punch-line was funny.

By Renee

September 12, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

I like the joke lozen.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

NETBANKER - You obviously didn’t read, or didn’t understand, my entire post.

RF - I think we agree. I’m sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. I think I just had a problem with the way you were saying it. It did sound to me like you were poor-bashing, but I think I hear you more clearly now.

By RF

September 12, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Sooooo, Kimberly, you’re saying you WANT to pay more taxes? Are you serious? And why is it that the left accuses the right of spending too much when every democrat I can think or has raised taxes on the middle class worker over and over? Balance the budget—yep I agree that needs to happen. But I gotta tell you the only reason I ever have a penny left to spend is because of Bush’s tax cuts. I don’t, as I have said, like everything about him, but as a BARELY middle-class American, I’ll take his tax cuts.

And Lozen and Kimberly, do you really think the Dems would spend any less?? Where do you think they’d get the estimated BILLIONS for disaster relief? It’s either deficit (much like most of us do with credit cards anyway) or raising taxes again. And the Dems aren’t going to tax teh rich any more than they do now. The fools who say that are rich members of Congress who wouldn’t pay any more and we all know it. Nope, they’ll balance the budget, and you and I will pay for it. And I’m sick and tired of giving it to people who haven’t earned it, so they can sit and cry poor-mouth and get a debit card for two grand!!

By Jack

September 12, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

And on the lighter side.

What is the fluid capacity of Monika Lewinski’s mouth?

One U.S. leader.

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Loz, can I forward this joke? It’s GREAT! (Although, I think it’s Dumbya that thinks we have $25 bills; Cheney is much better with math, hence high-priced, no-bid contracts for all his buddies.) BTW, gotta hand it to Cheney’s ‘nads. The other day when a bystander repeated his famous, inappropriate quote from the Senate to him on live TV, Cheney responded that he’d never heard that before…. then he had himself a good belly laugh! Yes, the ‘nads are in charge. Brains & heart: take a vacation!

By taboga

September 12, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Why don’t you look up the word “Deficit� in the dictionary. Then look up our current national budget deficit, and the seven-year history of it.

The deficit means absolutely nothing on its own.

I will try and keep it simple for you. You take out a $200,000.00 mortgage on a home - you are deficit spending.

Take out a car loan for $30,000.00 - you are deficit spending.

Add those two together and you would have $230,000.00 in deficit spending. BUT, most folks would agree that those expenditures are necessary expenditures. And now that you have a home; which will increase in value, and transporation to get you back and forth from work so as to make the money to support yourself - you’re doing pretty good for yourself. Even though you are deficit spending.

The amount of a deficit is irrelevant. It is what the deficit is used for and the potential return of investment - that is important.

But as usual Kimberly - you haven’t a clue as to what you’re parroting.

By RF

September 12, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

Lozen—I may not always like what you say, but I do like your wit and humor. That’s a good one—and I’m saying that as one who, from all I’ve written and read today, tends to lean towards the right!!

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

RF, we KNOW where the Repubs are getting those billions: they’re borrowing it. Irresponsible fiscal policy, don’t you think? Cutting taxes and spending more than you take in at the same time? Then cutting taxes for CERTAIN people to “increase revenue?” Hahaha! They must think the American people are really stooooooopid! Oh yeah.. Sorry. I should go away and work now before I hurt some more feelings. BTW, Good one, Jack! Hahaha!

By Renee

September 12, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

I wonder if there is one thing we could ever all agree on.

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, you may forward the joke to as many people as you like. And I’m sure you’re expecting your grandchildren to pay off your house and car notes! ;-}

By RF

September 12, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

Good point Taboga—-we live in a country where practically everyone lives in a debt (deficit) situation, and many can’t manage their debts. They’ve had to change bankruptcy laws because so many overdo the deficit spending in their lives. And we expect the government to have a balanced budget…impossible when you look at the size and scope of the federal budget.

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

Okay, I’ll go in a minute. RF, I’ve struggled too. But let me ask you: Have your insurance rates climbed in the past few years? How ‘bout your prescription costs? How ‘bout your energy bills? Fuel? Do you have a gas furnace? Groceries? Phone bills? Rent? Ever get nailed on a cc late fee when your payment is a day late? Then the interest rate sneaks up? To WHOM do you write your checks, may I ask? THE POOR PEOPLE DON’T HAVE YOUR MONEY, HONEY!! The CEOs of the insurance, energy, an communication companies have it. Follow the money trail!!!

By lozen

September 12, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

And Kimberly, I know if you were only making $40,000 a year you would only be able to borrow a certain amount that the mortgage company was pretty sure you could pay back in your lifetime for your house. And I know you’re smart enough to buy a used car for $15,000 instead of a new car for $30,000 so you could make the payments and pay it off. You wouldn’t be out there buying fur coats, diamonds, a beach mansion, a Mercedes if you were making $40,000 a year. Not if you’re a responsible person, anyway.

By Netbanker

September 12, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

JBM…I did read and understand that you were being self-depricating…I was only focusing my comment on that one little sentence because it was the only part with which I disagreed and didn’t think you should sell your point short.

RF…no one WANTS to pay more taxes, but the reality check is coming and it’s not going to be pretty when it does…and it WILL require more tax dollars. We need a fundamental reform of the tax system so that income isn’t the tax basis. We punish people for earning more..trust me I’ve been there where the raise pushes me into a new tax bracket and my net check went DOWN.

By lozen

September 12, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this

FEMA says it will end debit card plan

By HOPE YEN | Associated Press September 9, 2005 WASHINGTON - The nation’s relief agency said Friday it will discontinue its program to distribute debit cards worth up to $2,000 to hurricane victims, two days after hastily announcing the novel plan to provide quick relief.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency said it will scrap the program once officials finish distributing cards this weekend at shelters in Dallas, Houston and San Antonio, where many of the evacuees were moved. No cards will be issued to victims in other states.

Hurricane victims at other locations will have to apply for expedited aid through the agency’s traditional route _ filling out information on FEMA’s Web site to receive direct bank deposits, FEMA spokeswoman Natalie Rule said.

“We tried it as an innovative way to get aid to evacuee populations in Texas. We decided it would be more expeditious with direct deposits,” she said, citing the large staffing operation that would be required to replicate the Texas operation in other states.”

So much for the credit card promise. How is it going to take less people to take apps off the FEMA website and create direct deposits for people? ;-0

By lozen

September 12, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Netbanker. The reality check will come in after the Repubs are out of office, don’t ya see. Then the Dems get all the heat for raising taxes. Ah, politics.

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, please, for all our sakes, go before I have to cut loose on you honey!! IF it’s any of your business, I don’t have much “money” as it is, but coming from a background where many lived off the government, I can tell you one thing I do have —PRIDE AND SELF-MOTIVATION!! Unlike some, I chose to get out and get my education and improve myself. I saw my surroundings for what they were, and I have relatives still there still crying poor-mouth every time a republican gets the white house. Please go while I’m still being reasonable at this point. You know not what you say!

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Loz, that’s a fairly accurate, yes. I DID, however, try dating a Republican recently. Still have no diamonds, mansions, or Mercedes. He was extremely generous to himself, though. Heh heh…. Well, you can’t put a price tag on a well-learned lesson, can you? Hahaha! A poor man might love me for my paycheck, but I’ll take that over one who can only love himself!

By taboga

September 12, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Maybe we can have a Liberal explain to us: How raising taxes on the wealthy - help our economy?

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

RENEE - I highly doubt it.

By Tim

September 12, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

I haven’t posted this week but RF PLLLLEASE ‘let loose’… I would LOOOOOVE to see this

(have fun Kimberly… this should be amusing)

By taboga

September 12, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

The real reason they are taking the debit cards away: FRAUD.

Just like I said last week. And it was the reason for the lock-down at the Astrodome last week — Many people trying to pass themselves off as hurricane victims and they really weren’t. Imagine that.

But all you do-gooders keep donating.

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

and Kimberly, what hasn’t increased in recent years?? Are you ready to pay the possibly doubling natural gas prices this winter?? Contrary to what you think, I’m educated but have a job right now that doesn’t pay what I hope to make one day. I’m not ready, so I’m making sure I have an electric heater and extra blankets. And yes, dear, the poor can think enough to know how to do that too, but they won’t. They’ll cry for more help!!

By Atman

September 12, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Yanno, for once I was hoping to see some common ground in the issue, but as expected, it was turned once again into a playground brawl…

True, poor decisions were made, stubornness from most didn’t help either.

Frankly, The President was the last person in my list of people at fault here because honestly, it’s like blaming the CEO of Sony because your camera takes blurry pictures.

Anyway…

It’s this divisional mentality among many that’s gonna kill this country, unless people learn to compromise and reach common grounds, instead of playing the cynical wisguy mindgames.

Oh well…

By Guillermo

September 12, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Taboga, if you know that is what’s happening with the wealthy, why do you insist upon badmouthing the poor?

I look at it this way. The poor and the wealthy are screwing the middle class, hard worker. They both are taking money from you. Neither one deserves the money. How does going to school and getting an MBA entitle you to millions in a severance package? How does you being born into a wealthy family make you entitled to millions?

By Guillermo

September 12, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, and by the way, something like 60 percent of the donations to the tsunami relief never made it to the victims. It went into somebody’s pocket.

Taboga, there is fraud at all levels. The rich are the ones that know how to steal the best.

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Tim—-I promised myself I wouldn’t stoop to that level, but let me assure you it’s a good ‘ol ghetto stompin’ when I do. It’s in my genes if not in my daily vocabulary anymore. It takes more than rampant ignorance to make me cut loose. And really, the debate and jabbing is one of the beautiful things about living in this country. We are free to debate, learn, and grow…that is if we choose to. Unless of course, we’re too poor and sorrowful and uneducated and cry for money on TV with teeth missing and nappy hair so people can feel sorry for us and let us get away once again with missing our opportunity to have a better life!! OOPS, almost got ugly about the poor again!

By Ken

September 12, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Kimberly… Love the sarcasm. I guess that’s the only way you understand something so…

Everyone in the entire country, including many resident of New Orleans, knew a very large hurricane was coming. So those who were able to, packed their cars and left. The mayor, who had several hundred buses and other vehicles ready for a similar type of evacuation, didn’t know about this hurricane, couldn’t see the others fleeing the city, so he decided to not order an evacuation. Darn. My fault, FEMA missed that one.

The governor of Louisiana had thousands of guard troops available for use in the city after the hurricane hit, all she had to do was ask, but didn’t. Crap. That was Michael Chertoff who forgot to make the request.

The Red Cross was ready to deliver food, water and hygeine kits to folks in the Superdome but the mayor told them it wasn’t necessary. Ooops. Guess the President convinced him it wasn’t necessary, right?

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

RF - See, those are the stereotypical comments to which I’m referring. You didn’t say “some”… your comment was the poor can think enough to know how to do that too, but they won’t. They’ll cry for more help

That implies that poor people (except for you) don’t have the sense to get extra blankets when it’s cold. That they are all so greedy that they’ll ask the government for a blanket instead of getting their own blanket.

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

RF, you remind me of reformed smokers: “I quit, so everyone else is a loser if they don’t quite RIGHT NOW!” I’ll admit, I was a fattie for awhile too. I’m skinny now, so STOP EATING NACHOS!

You like to blast the poor, but I thought at least a third of the poor are children. Hmmm… Instead of tax-funded after-school care, maybe a six-year-old CAN get a job at Wal-Mart to make ends meet at home. But then he’d displace Grandpa from the $5.50 an hour job he had to take after Ken Lay raided his retirement fund he worked for all his life. Lay then put his properties in his wife’s name… Nice guy.

You’re right: the cost of everything HAS gone up. So I guess we’d have to look at those increases as they compare to the overall inflation rate. Hmmmm…. My insurance goes up every year whether I go to the doctor or not! And by more than the general inflation rate. Service? Nope. Not better. Usually worse. Yes, I’d say THEY have a good chunk of what could have been my retirement savings.

News on welfare, Hon: CORPORATIONS are the biggest recipients. You see, while YOUR paycheck is taxed faithfully, no matter what, corporations send their guys over to Congress and state legislatures and wrangle themselves some special privileges… ones that WE don’t get. They say, “Let us have tax breaks and we’ll hire people and create jobs.” And the whores say, “Okee dokee!” And then they move jobs overseas and make even MORE profit, for which they are taxed LESS. And the whores, I mean, our esteemed Congressmen say “Okee dokee!”

If we stopped ONLY the corporate welfare — that is — if corporations paid the rates they’re actually supposed to based on their profits, our deficit wouldn’t be this high.

Also corporate welfare: no-bid contracts. Um-hmm… How is it “good ol’ honest competitive capitalism” when a handful of companies get the majority of government contracts??? and OH BY THE WAY, there’s a bunch of OUR money unaccounted for, but hey, they’re Dick’s buddies, so we won’t mention it. It’s just a few $$BILLION. But don’t you try that at home, RF. The IRS will nail you like an angry boyfriend.

Again, you may not like the poor people, but THEY DON’T HAVE YOUR MONEY!

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

One last comment before I leave for the day…Kimberly et.al, would you be willing to move in with the poor you so ardently defend?? There are plenty here arguing the plight of the poor, but how many of us avoid NW or SW Atlanta because the neighborhoods aren’t safe?? I grew up there and I avoid it like the plague! I’m not saying don’t help the poor, but let’s help them by showing them what I found—the way out! I’m not far out of it, but enough that I haven’t seen any shootings in my neighborhood that I know of. No, they’re not all going to be able to get out, I know that. But quit blaming the government and defending the folks when you wouldn’t leave your safe, sheltered worlds to live with them either!! Gotta go work some more so I can hopefully keep my boys out of the ghetto! Good debate, interesting points made. Peaceful evening to us all.

By Interesting

September 12, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

From an article talking about race and its part in the Katrina catastrophe by Jacob Weisberg:

“In this light, the actions and inactions now being picked apart are readily explicable. The president drastically reduced budget requests from the Army Corps of Engineers to strengthen the levees around New Orleans because there was no effective pressure on him to agree. When the levees broke on Tuesday, Aug. 30, no urge from the political gut overrode his natural instinct to spend another day vacationing at his ranch. When Bush finally got himself to the Gulf Coast three days later, he did his hugging in Biloxi, Miss., which is 71 percent white, with a mayor, governor, and two senators who are all Republicans. Bush’s memorable comments were about rebuilding Sen. Trent Lott’s porch and about how he used to enjoy getting hammered in New Orleans. Only when a firestorm of criticism and political damage broke out over the federal government’s callousness did Bush open his eyes to black suffering.

Had the residents of New Orleans been white Republicans in a state that mattered politically, instead of poor blacks in city that didn’t, Bush’s response surely would have been different. Compare what happened when hurricanes Charley and Frances hit Florida in 2004. Though the damage from those storms was negligible in relation to Katrina’s, the reaction from the White House was instinctive, rapid, and generous to the point of profligacy. Bush visited hurricane victims four times in six weeks and delivered relief checks personally. Michael Brown of FEMA, now widely regarded as an incompetent political hack, was so responsive that local officials praised the agency’s performance.

The kind of constituency politics that results in a big life-preserver for whites in Florida and a tiny one for blacks in Louisiana may not be racist by design or intent. But the inevitable result is clear racial discrimination. It won’t change when Republicans care more about blacks. It will change when they have more reason to care.”

It makes sense to me. It boils down to the votes, people. That’s what matters.

By Just Being Me

September 12, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

RF - That’s an interesting comment… on TV with teeth missing and nappy hair I don’t even know where to begin to unpack a statement like that.

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Ken, thanks. You’re right, I’m sarcastic. Grew up watching Hawkeye Pierce every Saturday night. You make some good points… screw-ups at all levels, and such. But I have to ask, WHY do we have a leader, who has achieved more than any of his predecessors in recent memory, almost TOTAL power in this country.. WHAT GOOD IS HE with all his power and the love of his millions of worshippers, if he can’t stand up in a CRISIS and HANDLE it? Yes, let’s stop asking what we can do for him and his friends, and start asking what he can do for US once in awhile. How ‘bout EVER? Does he EVER stand accountable? EVER? Once? Anyone? Anyone? How can he be the “most powerful man in the world” and yet do NOTHING? WHAT do we need him for? Why the admiration? Why the love? WHY THE FREE PASS? (“Now watch this drive!”)

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this

Kimberly, are you a preacher or politician?? Lord, girl you sound like one! Once again, I DON’T HAVE ALL THIS MONEY YOU KEEP SAYING I HAVE!! Girl, I came from the ghetto, and you can’t throw stats at me that will convince me that others can’t do what I did if they want to do so! And quit quoting the corporate crap—of course they get favors, that’s what PAC’s are for dear. That’s business as I know it—you scratch mine and so forth… My only point, before I snap here, is that many could do better if they wanted to, but it’s easier not to. Water ain’t gonna roll up hill if it don’t have to honey. I don’t mean to sound stereotypical, you did get me on it Just Being Me. I just get ill when we defend so many and can’t seem to find a way to separate those who truly need help from those who don’t. I’ve bashed my own today and hope that all the victims of Katrina can find a better life. I just hope they’ll stick with it and keep trying—I did and it can be done if you put your hand to work instead of just holding it out…okay, I’m out of here before I get stereotypical again. Keep on believing it’s just the rich taking advantage of the govt. Kimberly—you’ll find out one day hon’….

By Van

September 12, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Interesting -

I guess there are a lot of rich conservatives that donated money only for white folks - what BS you are spouting.

How many helicopters ignored the poor folks and only picked up middle income folks -

What I see is the people giving unselflessly to an area that suffered greatly. They are giving at the same level or better as with 9/11.

It appears the only ones seeing racism are either ignorant or blind.

Somewhere in the back of my mind comes something from the Good Book, thats the Bible for you folks in mid-town, I mean liberal - the rain falls on the just and unjust equally - or something to that effect.

By RF

September 12, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Before tomorrow, think and answer my question from earlier posts before you throw some more words back at me. WOULD YOU GIVE UP YOUR MIDDLE-CLASS HOME AND RELATIVE SAFETY TO LIVE IN THE PROJECTS WITH THESE VICTIMS OF POVERTY? I wonder Kimberly, if you’ve ever actually been to a project. Would you give up your security to take the chance? Easy to defend them, but answer the questions. You wouldn’t, couldn’t and you know it because it would scare the $%it out of you. But keep your opinion—I respect them even if I don’t agree. One point of being American that we can agree to disagree…

Just Being Me—I am one, so don’t call me racist—

By kimberly

September 12, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

Dang, RF! When you put it that way… I mean, I’m from the lower ‘burbs. (‘Burb life is HECK by the way.) Who do I think I AM giving a rat’s fuzzy a— about somebody else? What right to I have to give a doggone about the poor folks two neighborhoods over? Do I really think I can get away with believing that stuff I heard in Sunday school as a kid? DANG! What’s wrong with me? I need help.

By Scott

September 12, 2005 05:27 PM | Link to this

First, I would like to say that I sincerely hope we all pull together to help those in need during this Katrina crisis. People need our help and we should help them.

I don’t really understand the whole racial argument or see its relevancy. Since when do 175 mph winds have a preference? This is a natural disaster, not another 3 Mile Island. Tornados and flash floods are one thing. There are very little warning for those, but hurricanes have DAYS of advance notice. Knowing the potential for disaster, the city of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana should have stopped counting their mardi gras beads for a moment and filled up every single piece of public transportation, commandeered greyhound and Amtrak and gotten people the heck out of dodge before the storm hit. They were inadequately prepared more than a little bit because they just didn’t really think it could happen. So now we have to clean it up. Frankly, none of us has ever seen this type of disaster and could not have anitcipated it. We could go on and on about what worst case scenarios should have/could have been see and/or prepared for, but until we are to the rebuilding stage, does that really matter? Or would our collective time be better spent helping those in need rahter than debating over societies ills or the rantings/blaming/excuses of various political pundits? I think the answer is obvious.

As for the media, it really seems to be a matter of taste anymore. Neither CNN or FoxNews is unbiased or objective, the are simply reporting news based on the audience they want to appeal to (Democrat or Republican…Liberal or Conservative) much like the networks plan their sit-com programs (let’s face it, the Simpsons doesn’t appeal to everyone) Looking for unbiased journalism? It’s an oxymoron and has gone the way of the do-do bird. Extinct

By taboga

September 13, 2005 07:40 AM | Link to this

Good Morning Comrades,

I see the Communists were out here yesterday ranting and prattling on about how the world isn’t fair. Comrade Kimberly was running on high octane (not in an SUV of course), demanding tax-funded Daycare and that we punish corporations with tax increases because her insurance is going up and Ken Lay is putting her money in his pocket as everyone worships President Bush…

The usual Marxist rhetoric that we’ve come to expect from the Useful Idiots on the Left…

By Ken

September 13, 2005 07:49 AM | Link to this

Kimberly… You see, that’s your problem. Remove the sarcasm and look at the situation objectively.

I guess I don’t look to the President, this one or any other, to solve our problems. You want the government to solve all of the problems. I don’t. I want the government to leave me alone. I want to be left to rise or fall on my own merits. I want to be accountable for my own actions. I want to be responsible for my own situation.

I don’t trust the government one little bit. They are nothing more than flawed human beings who will beg, borrow and steal if it gets them power. Bush did it. Clinton did it. Nearly every Senator and Congressperson did it. They make promises to get elected. They pay off those promises to one portion of the electorate by taking from another portion of the electorate.

When you boil it down, it’s all about money.

Lefties want to take from the people of wealth (relative term) and give to those without. Righties want to ensure the people of wealth get to keep their wealth.

Netbanker said it right in a previous post. This country needs to overhaul how it collects tax revenue. He got a raise and took home less money in his net paycheck. I got married and took home less money in my net paycheck. That’s what makes most regular folks vote against the left in this country. Not their social issues. Not their stance on the war.

By Interesting

September 13, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this

Do some of you not know how to read for comprehension? The whole article I posted yesterday stated this, in layman terms: The President is concerned about votes. He knows that black voters will vote overwhelmingly Democrat, since they are only 13 percent of the population, it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t get their vote. Therefore, if he asks oblivious to the situation in New Orleans, it is because that is not in a swing state and the overwhelming majority is black. It boils down to the vote.

By taboga

September 13, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

That implies that poor people (except for you) don’t have the sense to get extra blankets when it’s cold. That they are all so greedy that they’ll ask the government for a blanket instead of getting their own blanket.

How could they be getting cold in the first place?

What with all the millions of supposedly concerned do-gooders applauding themselves for all their wonderful compassion - I honestly don’t see how they could be getting cold…

By Dan

September 13, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this

Forget the politics and finger pointing read the facts and decide Our combined forces of national guard and active is about 1M about 27% are stationed abroad with 10% in Iraq. Every state has at least 50% of its guard at home and most have 75%. This info comes from the Wall street journal. So there you have it, in light of these facts, and the fact that the LA governor did not activate her own national guard or allow others in until Wed. You really can’t make an intelligent argument that troops stationed abroad hindered the rescue efforts.

By taboga

September 13, 2005 08:30 AM | Link to this

Do some of you not know how to read for comprehension? The whole article I posted yesterday stated this, in layman terms: The President is concerned about votes. He knows that black voters will vote overwhelmingly Democrat, since they are only 13 percent of the population, it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t get their vote. Therefore, if he asks oblivious to the situation in New Orleans, it is because that is not in a swing state and the overwhelming majority is black. It boils down to the vote.

But you might note: President Bush is not running for re-election.

By Ken

September 13, 2005 08:48 AM | Link to this

Scott… Your comments about the media are dead on the money. All news services work toward ratings rather than reporting news. They try to sway opinion rather than reporting news.

This unfortunately has lead to a dumbing down of our citizens. We now have people either parrot one side or the other, don’t know anything or, a minority, who read several media sources and then come to their own conclusions.

Ever wonder why the Founding Fathers never intended for everyone to vote…? This is why. Voting is a responsibility that needs to be taken seriously and with careful consideration. Very few people do that anymore. Very people CAN do that anymore.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

They should give that good samaritan who shot and killed that carjacker a key to the city. Hope it hurt him before he died.

By Chilao

September 13, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

Taboga - wow, surprised a bright guy like you missed that. Bush may not be eligible for re-election, but you can be sure the GOP in private meetings(I have read) are indeed discussing how Bush’s unpopularity will affect their GOP control of both houses of Congress in future elections.

So yes, it IS about votes.

Unrelated, and the only reason I bothered to come here today, forgot to mention yesterday the good-ole-slimy-frat boy aspect. What good is nepotism if you cannot use it? Both political parties guilty in this respect.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

RF - I know you are one which is why I found your comment so very disturbing. I actually thought about it several times last night.

By the way, did you know that it is possible to be racist against your own kind? (I’m not accusing you, just replying to your “I’m one so don’t call me racist” remark). Obviously, I watch too much Dr. Phil. :-)

RF, that comment could only be considered stereotypical and hurtful - and even more damaging coming from you.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this

The real reason they are taking the debit cards away: FRAUD.

Just like I said last week. And it was the reason for the lock-down at the Astrodome last week � Many people trying to pass themselves off as hurricane victims and they really weren’t. Imagine that.

Take Beretta Jo Hogg, for example…

By Renee

September 13, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

It’s unfortunate that a few bad apples spoil the bunch but I think that there are more that need help than others committing fraud. You are always going to have the criminally minded people trying to get over. Which makes it bad for the people who need help when you have people who are already against giving see this type of fraud.

By JC

September 13, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

When you look at the timeline it clearly shows that Gov. Blanco informed the feds she was going to need help on Saturday. Bush has said he didn’t even know there was a problem till Tuesday after the levees broke Monday at 2PM. The infrastructure in the state and city had collapsed and it was up to our Federal Government to step in and provide assistance. They failed. People died. The failure stems from Bush appointing a friend instead of a qualified disaster manager to head FEMA. FEMA was created for the very purpose of stepping in to aid when state’s are unable to handle a disaster. Instead, it has been turned into Bush’s personal jobs program for his rich friends. Wow. Talk about welfare recipients.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

RENEE - I absolutely agree. I pleaded for days to get my partner to agree for us to be a host family. Stories like this don’t help at all…

By Jack

September 13, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Wouldn’t you want to see some id before letting someone stay in your house? I think I would have checked on Ms. Hogg.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

Yeah, it’s a shame. I knew it would happen, I can’t understand the human spirit that would do things like that in the face of tragedy like that.

By Dusty

September 13, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

I wonder what Boretta Jo Hogg was thinking? Did she think that rich people had taken all the money? That she deserved some “gift” money, too because she was poor? That it was OK to steal a little just like the looters did?

Anyway, she walked off with $1,300 relief money and moved in with a helpful citizen. That is, until her innocent 9 year old son mentioned that he went to school in STONE MOUNTAIN. Now Hogg’s new home is Cobb County Jail.

Will liberals say that her rights as “poor” were violated? Will ACLU agree? (Will Kimberly blame Bush?) It will be interesting to watch the outcome of this sad case.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this

RENEE - Not making excuses, but desperation (especially that of a mother) can make one do some deplorable things…

JACK - Not all the victims have ID with them, and even if they do, it could be hard to verify. When screening, my partner and I interviewed, probed, tried to check references, and in the end - we just had to follow our hearts, instinct, and good sense.

By Sandy/Sanhan

September 13, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

I just flew in from Las Vegas last night (for a funeral) and boy… are my arms tired. While there, I tried to keep abreast of the political goings on without necessarily discussing them with my family and the folks who came to grieve my cousin’s death.

I managed to keep my opinions to myself until I had a conversation with a man who is studying to be a deacon in the New American Catholic Church. He said that he discussed with his bishop that he, the deacon wannabee, had no compassion for the victims of Katrina because the disaster was God’s way of punishing them for being pagan, and that this was God’s way of letting us know that He is angry that we are trying to take God out of government, since our nation was established on Christian beliefs. (For the record, I do not believe his opinions reflect those of his church).

In response, I gently and tactfully (I hope) explained that when Jesus said ‘what you do to the least of my brothers you do to me,’ could mean many things, not just economic, but spiritual and intellectual poverty, hopelessness, fear, etc., and that this was his way of encouraging our compassion and suspending our judgment.

I also told him that I am a proponent of separation of church and state, fearing that religious legislation would be disasterous in accomplishing anything governmentally, (my opinion further reinforced by religious discussions on this blog).

It struck me as ironic that in the face of this national disaster, that a secular person like me would have to remind a religious person like him of what Christ taught. That his daily life is so infused with God’s teachings, while mine less so, but in times of sorrow and fear, I took comfort from Christ’s words while he did not.

I also read an editorial in the Las Vegas paper by a libertarian who opines that we have bred the self-reliance out of people through our welfare system. He suggested that since the folks of N.O. knew they lived below sea level, they should have invested in canoes and bottled water, supplies, etc., so they could save themselves, indicating that they have only themselves to blame. I wonder how many folks thought they could survive the storm, which might be honorable according to libertarian and survivalist thinking, later finding themselves overwhelmed… I also wonder how he can tell the difference between the folks who stayed behind, perhaps assuming the poor ones did so out of lack of initiative, but others out of rugged individualism… The result was the same: many needed rescuing, and many didn’t survive.

As for libertarian thinking, i.e., the notion that we should not rely on the government for anything (please correct me if I have this wrong), eschewing all bureaucracy in favor of free enterprise and privitization and lack of regulation, begs this question: When libertarian-leaning folk pledge allegience to the flag, (assuming they do), what exactly are they pledging to? Can libertarians love the country but hate the functions of the government? (Forgive me for the blatant dichotomy, but this was the simplest way for me to phrase the question succinctly).

As far as folks obsessing over the $2000 debit cards as wasted taxpayer money, I think we ought to be more concerned about the billions of dollars going to the no-bid contractors in Iraq.

With the cost burden of the unnecessary war in Iraq and Katrina rescue and clean-up, and rising oil costs, my family can’t afford the mortgage or the used car; college costs will difficult for us despite continued hard work, job advancements and improved personal finances.

My posts will be few and far between due to work obligations, but I’ll try to follow along. Lozen, Brian Curtis, Netbanker-as always, good to read your stuff.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

Well, I don’t know how she expected to get away with it, and OBVIOUSLY the Red Cross doesn’t do much checking, maybe they are limited in how much they can or cannot check. But I don’t see how ANYBODY could defend this.

By RF

September 13, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Just Being Me—you’re right about my remark yesterday, and there is no justification for it. I suppose we all have our limitations and faults, and it is easy to become narrow and judgmental. No excuse though, and all I can do is apologize. Like many lately, I spoke out of turn. I just wish there weren’t so many people making the stereotypes happen and continue. What frustrates me in all of the disaster relief is this: When the help runs out and the dust settles on the poor who have relocated, how will all of this serve to make their lives better? I am hoping that all the aid groups trying to help will realize that the equally great need for so many is to teach them how to make life better and keep them from recreating their sad situations in new cities. So many of the poor have never known a different life and don’t have the education or emotional resources to build a different life. We have to work with them down the road to show them how to manage their money and begin planning for a new life. Giving them money alone will only perpetuate the poverty cycle. The case in Alpharetta only helps to confirm yet another stereotype that will influence many people’s perception of the problem. Those few who abuse the system will harm the many who honestly need some help. But without educating them and guiding them away from the mentality of poverty, there will be those who will return to it and contine providing the stereotypes so many see. It is a very sad and hurtful thing for me to think about the future for many of these people who just simply don’t know any better.

Again, I am sorry to have offended…

By Renee

September 13, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

As far as the libertarian thinking, it’s more about what the government is regulating. There are certain aspects that the government should regulate. I personally think the government regulates WAYYYY too much. If it does not affect anyone’s life (safety), liberty or freedom it should not be regulated.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

RF. You really don’t need to apologize to anyone on this blog. You call um like you see um.

By RF

September 13, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Jack—indeed I do, but some things just aren’t productive to say, and I try as much as possible not to go there. Now Kimberly yesterday just about got me there. I love the debate and the even the arguing, but the fun of being petty is short lived. But if it’s the politicians we’re talking about, I think the petty stuff is just fine!!

By Michael H.

September 13, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

I have not visited this site for some months and can see that the high level of political discourse that I have come to expect, especially from the conservatives who post here, has continued.

What has been supplied here as a “defense� against the claim that the Bush administration was incompetent and partially responsible for the poor response to the storm’s impact upon New Orleans? Here is a sampling that speaks for itself, but it is difficult to resist responses:

“The left would call him [Bush] a fascist if he used the federal government.�

(A good combination of the red herring and straw man fallacies.)

It’s entirely the fault of the local officials and attacks on the poor for remaining in the city:

“They’re IN the Astrodome because there’s MONEY to be had there! They’re standing in lines to receive debit cards worth thousands of dollars. And as soon as they get back out on the streets - the Liquor Stores will be the better for it.�

(Reminds one of the kind hearted comments of another member of the Bush family doesn’t it? If it doesn’t, then here is another reminder from one of the posters: “Barb was right when she said many of the people in the Astrodome are better off.” Never mind that it was logistically impossible for many of the poor, the sick, and elderly to move from the city and it is morally reprehensible to condemn them. I wonder what Jesus would do as the evangelicals say.)

“We give too much money to too many who could do for themselves.� (If that is the case I wonder why the United States has the smallest welfare state of all Western countries, the highest poverty level among adults and children, and forty five million people with no health insurance, at least 75% of whom work full-time? The total expenditure for welfare programs is a whopping 1% of the federal budget.)

“In what other country do able-bodied folk have government help to pay rent, utilities, food, and get medical attention. In being so generous we have created a generation of folks who choose to be poor because it is easier.”

“It wasn’t incompentance on the part of the President or the Federal government that caused the incredible losses in New Orleans. It was the incompetance of the local and state governments. Little if nothing could have prevented the property loss but foresight by the appropriate leaders could have further minimized the loss of life.�

(This person manages to be completely ignorant of the facts and well as unable to spell competently, pun intended. This scenario was presented to FEMA and the local officials by scientists with computer models that predicted to the ninth degree that this would occur. And we are to believe that the budget cuts by the Bush administration and the appointment of a wholly unqualified individual to head FEMA had nothing to do with the inept response?)

And how about this description:

“…poor and sorrowful and uneducated and cry for money on TV with teeth missing and nappy hair so people can feel sorry for us and let us get away…”

“I have a sneaking suspicion the housing projects in most major cities will be overflowing with folks soon, some of whom can do better but for lack of motivation.”

Several posters decided to invoke John Kerry and speculate that his performance would be worse. (How would they know? I’m surprised that none of the conservatives brought in their favorite whipping boy in Bill Clinton as they usually do.)

“Every president has appointed idiots.� Perhaps, but Bush has appointed more than the normal proportion of incompetent political cronies.

Oh, and let us not forget to blame the “liberal” media:

“The AJC was in its usual “bash Bushâ€? mode of intention. How good it would be to have a local news source that is not dedicated to undermining our own government, both at home and abroad.” (Well, I suppose you must consider the unofficial conduit for the GOP, Fox News, “fair and balanced”?)

And the usual ad hominem abuse: (What would American conservatives be able to say without it?)

“rube liberal,â€? “you don’t know the meaning of patriotismâ€? “Typical left-wing extremists to blame the President for that.” “Leftists do-gooders, money-spending liberals,â€? and the brilliant post that began with “There’s plenty of blame to go aroundâ€? and managed to conclude with the irrelevant “I don’t like or respect the feminist movement.â€? “you folks in mid-town, I mean liberal…â€? “Hollywood folks,” “political opportunists,” “Bush gets a lot of stuff dumped on him which sounds like liberals still in potty training. Very little of it is worth a “hill of beansâ€?, much less the truth.” “BC is such an idiot. Typical liberal rant.” and that is only a sample.

I wonder where are the conservatives such as David Brooks, former senior editor at the Weekly Standard, and now New York Times columnist? On the PBS Newshour last Friday he said that there were many people like him that generally support Bush but very angry with the administration right now. Well, looking at the polls Brooks is right, support for Bush is quite low for this point in a president’s tenure.

But for most of those who post here critical thinking about the Bush administration’s policies appears to be a form of ideological treason, especially for Taboga and Dusty. It is easy to see how a political illiterate who didn’t even know the prime ministers of Canada, India, and Pakistan was elected president, conservatives elected one of their own.

When I see the sheer mindlessness and mean-spiritedness of the hard core Bush supporters here I share the horror of Europeans at the political condition of the United States.

By taboga

September 13, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

If you are pledging allegiance to the Flag - you are pledging your allegiance to your country.

You Leftists can never get “government” out of your head.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

RF - You’re a big person. Although we disagree on some points, I respect you and appreciate your ability to admit fault.

I, too, am ashamed and embarassed (and resentful) of the people who bring any element of truth to these stereotypes. I, too, cringe each time I see the people you described on the news.

Although I hate to admit it, it makes me feel a little better to know that the cameras occasionally catch some “oily-haired, toothless” folks too… LOL!

By Betsy Mellinger

September 13, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

I am forwarding the following email to you, which I just received from our County’s Emergency Operations Center. Please try to put yourself in the place of the patients and staff who suffered through the storm and then ask yourself whether adequate resources were available:

Friday, September 02, 2005 2:04 PM An email to a fellow nurse from the CNO at Biloxi….

We just got our e-mail up and running. I hope this actually goes through! It must have been your prayers that saved us. If you came down here and saw first hand the death and destruction on the coast from Ocean Springs to Waveland Mississippi, you would see that there is NO WAY, Biloxi Regional Medical Center should still be standing!!!!

All of our staff, to the best of our knowledge survived the storm as far as there was no major injury or death. Everyone is blessed to be alive. A large percentage of our staff have suffered catastrophic losses of homes and belongings. Many, many, many of us have lost absolutely everything we own, myself included. My home was in an area, in Pass Christian that is so badly demolished, that the national guard and EOC cannot even get to it yet. Some of my pets were in a kennel in Pass Christian that more than likely no longer exists. Everyone continues to put all of the personal loss behind them and tend to the patients, our first priority. It is only in the silence of a broken heart, when alone for a few minutes, or with a trusted co-worker, that the tears flow, briefly and then it is back to business. I do believe that most of the patients do not know the extent of the loss of the healthcare workers that are caring for them. And, they shouldn’t know it. It should not be their burden.

You would not believe it here. The city of Biloxi has no water, so we have had no water to run our air conditioners. Of course we have had mid 90 degree weather. Inside, it has to be well over 100 degrees. Of course, this also means that we cannot bathe or flush toilets. Think of 100 degrees, nobody bathing and no toilets flushing. Can you spell “STINK?” We must constantly watch the staff for heat exhaustion in addition to watching the patients for the same thing. We have had only generator power, so needless to say, in order to conserve the generator power, there were frequent and extended times that the elevators were not working. (We have 6 floors in our hospital.)

We had been cut off from all outside communication. During the storm, we lost cable, so could not monitor the weather. Our EOC radio did not work, the phones went down and the cell phones would work very sporadically. Windows in patient rooms started flying in and we had to evacuate the patients out of their rooms and into the hallways. As windows continued to fly in and ceiling tiles were ripped from the ceiling in the rooms where the windows blew in, glass was flying all over the room. We had to try to nail the doors shut, because after a certain time, the broken windows were trying to suck things out of the window.

We then had to evacuate the 6th floor patients to the 1st floor. We no sooner got 38 patients from Med Surgery down to the first floor, when it became apparent that the Gulf of Mexico was in our hospital loading dock, just about ready to lap over into the ER.

Things were flying off of our roof, patient rooms were leaking, not really from the roof, but the force of the wind, close to 145 mph, was driving the rain straight through our bricks. Water was then seeping down onto the ceiling of the floors below and then that started the whole domino effect of ceiling tiles falling, thing getting ruined by water coming through the ceiling, etc. When the storm ended, we were all still alive. We didn’t have any idea of what it looked like outside of our little world.

We finally were able to start getting in touch with corporate and once that happened and they started getting a list of our needs, things got mobilized really fast. I cannot say enough about Health Management Associates (HMA)! They are busting it, trying to get our every need met! Our sister HMA employees are arriving to help and they are a godsend! Supplies and ice and fuel and clothes and cigarettes and chocolate and our every need is being seen to! You would just break down and cry if you could see the response from our Mississippi Division and all of Corporate and our sister hospitals!

Homeland Security is here and there are Federal Police protecting our ER doors. The National Guard is here, NDMS is here and it is overwhelming to see all of this all in and around our beautiful little hospital.

Tonight, for the first time since the storm, we have some air conditioning going. We are not sure how long it will last, but we believe that as we sleep on the floors all over the hospital tonight, we’ll get some sleep for the first time. We are running out of food and we do hope that a food truck will reach us tomorrow. It was supposed to have come yesterday and did not make it. I cannot say enough about the staff of BRMC! Through the entire 12 hour beating this hospital took, even with moving patients all over this hospital to the best area of safety, one step ahead of the storm, only 1 of our patients had any anxiety. She was a mom with a potential PE, with a 4 DAY old baby in her arms. That is a tribute to our staff, that the patients never panicked. Because the staff never let on how scared they were. They were calm and confident, professional and positive.

It has been and remains, an experience like no other. Yesterday evening, I got my first chance to get out of the building and walk around a little bit. It is 100% totally overwhelming. It smells like death and destruction. It looks like someone dropped the big one on us. Almost everything is gone or has moved to a new location. Our ER and grounds look like a M.A.S.H. Unit. There are injured people everywhere! Our morgue is filling up. There are not enough shelters for the stranded, hungry thirsty people that are approaching our hospital hourly. We had a young man arrive to our ER and die today with a body temp of 108! We have snake bite victims, people who are already septic with Vibrio because of 7 hour swims clinging to trees after having been blown out into the storm.

Our nurses, doctors, techs, therapists, HMA everyone has been fantastic throughout! The commitment and dedication to the great responsibility of caring for the patients in our community that have been entrusted to our care and protection has been evident this week. It is an awesome and humbling experience, to say that I am their Chief Nursing Officer. With a lesser crew, we would not have survived as long as we have. I can’t say that I wish this experience on anyone, but I do know that it is and will continue to be a life changing experience.

Feel free to share this e-mail with anyone that is interested. God bless you and thank you for thinking of us!

By Jack

September 13, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

RF. Everyone gets riled up on this blog at one time or another. I’m guilty of that. All good fun!

By Ken

September 13, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

Sandy… I’ll try to respond to your libertarian question b/c I consider myself a libertarian leaning individual.

I believe the government should be there for protection of private property and basic infrastructure (roads, police, fire, schools). Nothing more. I do not believe the government should provide any sort of paycheck to individuals who do not directly work for the government. I do not believe in social security. I do not believe in welfare. I do not believe in a minimum wage. I do not believe in progressive taxing. I do not believe the government should pass any laws that restricts our lifestyle.

In this case, I do believe that the city of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana should have had a plan for dealing with this situation. My house sits below the road and can plossibly flood with water. I have taken precautions to prevent this. The local authorities should have done the same in New Orleans.

When I pledge allegience to the flag, I pledge my allegience to the ideals that founded this great nation and the government that protects them.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

lol justbeingme @ oily haired and toothless :)

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

JACK - I, too, call them as I see them. But, when you are offensive and didn’t mean to be - the mature thing to do is apologize.

Of course this is a blog and people have a right to say whatever they want. Most of us expect that anyone at any time can say something that will anger, or offend, or perhaps even hurt us - and there’s nothing we can do about it. Whether RF apologized or not, my life would have gone on. It wouldn’t have killed me. But, he decided to be the bigger person and show his true character (and his Mama’s good upbringing) and admit wrong.

But, if you’re not the type of person to intentionally offend people, why wouldn’t you apologize? RF is obviously a big enough and mature enough man to admit he was wrong in stating such an opinion - even if it is his perception. Why would you discourage that?

Avoiding unnecessary offense doesn’t compromise your right to “call em like you see em”

By taboga

September 13, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the critique Michael H.

Now, do you have anything to actually add to the conversation other than your Leftist ramblings and prattling?

By RF

September 13, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Michael, like you, all the folks blogging here have opinions which they are entitled to. You don’t have to agree, but the name calling vented yesterday was quite enough for most of us. Whether you agree with a person’s opinion, respect his or her right to express it, as yours is respected. That’s the beauty of being American, you don’t have to like others, but we have to all live together somehow. Illiterate folk would hardly have the skill to type, let alone argue a political debate.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

We’re all thinking about you and your neighbors Betsy.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

KEN - Does that mean that when eligible, you will decline to accept Social Security checks, or will take back only an amount equivalent to what you paid out during your working years?

By Dusty

September 13, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Well, our butterfly, Michael H. has come out of his cocoon. So Conservatives are the only ones doing and saying things all wrong. If that isn’t selective reading and thinking, I don’t know what is.

But this is a blog and even the blind can post. Even horrified Europeans, Howard Dean and John Kerry can post. “Hardcore” Conservatives will keep posting because they like things fair and square. Yes, even patriotic.

Sorry, Michael H.. We can’t all be a pure and simple “hardcore” liberal like you.

By RF

September 13, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

So Ken, do you actually believe that when someone like my mother has worked for fifty years (since the age of 15) in an industry without retirement benefits or a minimum wage to speak of, and has paid taxes and contributed to the economy, that she doesn’t deserve some kind of benefit for that, aka Social Security? Wait until you are old and unable to work anymore—you may change your mind.

By vince

September 13, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

The “blame game” is perhaps the most vile episode ever to come out of Washington, D.C. While people are starving, dying, displaced, searching for loved ones and trying to get back to some kind of order, the blame game is in full force.

For Bush and his Budget Busters to even remotely think of finger pointing is more than proof positive that Bush and his Buffoons don’t care at all about people. Waiting a week to go to New Orleans for nothing more than a photo op is incredibly vile. But, then, when black man James Byrd was dragged to his death while being chained to a truck, then Gov. Bush remained in the mansion, said nothing, and a few months later vetoed the hate crimes bill. A year later, while attending a governor’s function in Minnesota, a gang of black boys burned down a church attended mostly by white people. That day, that very day, Bush dropped everything, flew back to Texas, and was driven several hours to the home of the Pastor to offer condolences.

So, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at all anymore about how Bush responds to things.

One thing I find remarkable… the 9/11 terrorist attacks caught us off guard, because they were a surprise that nobody saw coming, and Bush and his Big Babboons was very sharp in getting all the FEMA resources and additional resources to NYC within the same day. That the clean up efforts, the medical care for the injured were flawless. The Patriot Act, a huge document, was ready almost over night for a congressional vote, etc.

So, one would think four years later, the same response would be expected for any disaster?

So, why the five day delay? The White House and the folks hanging out in there don’t watch the Weather Channel? With four days of watching the storm creep into the Gulf Coast region, the post storm reaction should have been within minutes, not days.

So, if 9/11 was a surprise, as everyone on this blog says it was, then how come such a swift and organized response? And with four days notice, how come such an unorganized sloppy response?

My answers: 9/11 took more than four days to prepare; and The Bush people are incompetent in all aspects of governing people, and the true colors of this administration have finally become clear to not only Americans, but the world.

Clinton; impeached for the use of a cigar as foreplay.

Bush: as of yet, nobody has uttered impeachment. I suppose lying to us about Iraq which has killed almost 2000 Americans and cost billions is less tragic than cigars? I suppose burning through 5.5 trillion dollars in 3.5 years isn’t so bad? I guess taking the most vacation days of any President in US history, and doing it in 5 years means nothing?

By Michael H.

September 13, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

Taboga,

I made an argument in an earlier post, something completely absent from the posts by conservatives here. If you are interested you can go back and read it.

All I have to add is that I consider an insult from yourself, a mindless individual, utterly lacking in compassion or character, a badge of honor. In Aristotle’s moral philosophy he argued for a hierarchy of moral development with a class of individuals who failed to obtain the first rung. These he called bestial. You can perhaps draw the inference, though I am not sure.

By RF

September 13, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

oh it’s always such fun when we go to the playground and argue over the slide, children. So who’s got cooties besides Michael??

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Social Security was a good idea at the time that it was implemented but it has come to a point that it’s almost obsolete. I will hate when the day comes and I am not allowed social security even though I’ve been putting money in it out of my paycheck every other week. The one’s recieving social security are the one’s that contributed, they are basically getting their money back. I know that’s a “perfect” ideal of social security and that it isn’t that simple. As far as welfare, I too don’t agree with that. I don’t like working and paying for other people to live. I DO believe in min. wage. If min. wage wasn’t in affect, those at mcd’s would be making $2/hr and would be collecting welfare and there would be more money out of my pocket!

By Poster

September 13, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

Three cheers for Badges of Honor.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

Surprised you didn’t play the race card like you usually do Vince.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

Vince - every crime is a hate crime. If the president (regardless of who it is) ran to every crime that happened, what would get done?! Blacks kill Blacks, whites kill whites, blacks kill whites, whites kill blacks…Some are done out of rascist hate, some are done out of pure-t evilness. The reason I can think of that a hate-crime bill hasn’t passed is because it would be hell trying to decipher what is hate and what wasn’t because it all is. Just because a white man/woman kills a black man/woman doesn’t necessarily mean it was done out of rascism and unfortunately the only person that knows for certain is the one doing the killing and they ain’t gonna be sharing.

I’m not saying that the way the 2 incidents you mentioned were handled correctly or not, I’m speaking in general.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

social security is very obsolete, however on the minimum wage, I think a company should have the right to pay what they like without any federal mandates. It would up to that person whether they took the job or not.

Buildingbridges I understand what you are saying but there are “hate” crimes when a person is targeted because of their color, national origin, sexual preference. But maybe if the laws were stronger against the crimes to begin with that would make a difference.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

BB - I got your point, but I disagree that “every crime is a hate crime.” That’s ridiculous.

By lozen

September 13, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Michael H, applause for your 12:15 post; are you ever right on that one! And your description of the post beginning with “There’s much blame to go around” and ending with “I hate feminists,” was fully descriptive of the type of simple minded hate we hear on this blog. Sandy your posts are always intelligent and right on.

Ken and others, please read Nickel and Dimed: on Not Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. We need the welfare system for all of us. I truly believe if welfare had not been instituted in this country, we would have seen the same kind of revolution here as that in Russia - the haves against the have nots. Would you prefer a great number of people in the U.S. starving and living on the streets? Do you really think about all the old people who end up, after working all their lives, with nothing to live on except social security? Want to see them living on the streets and then starving too? Think about what life would be like for ALL of us if this were the case!

By Jack

September 13, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

Crime is crime. There should not be anything termed a “hate” crime with special punishment. ALL crimes should be punished the same. Just vote buying is all that is.

By Ken

September 13, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me… What it means is that I would vote to get rid of social security right now if possible. I would be willing to give up my “future benefit” to never again have to pay into that terrible scam. I will NEVER get back the money I and my employers have/will contribute.

Not to mention, if I were allowed to keep that money, I would be able to pass a larger inheritance to my children which would make them more financially secure. Now, my payout is based on my lifespan. That’s a load of crap.

I would prefer to take the money diverted from my paycheck to social security and place it into my own personal investments, even if that investment is sticking it under my matress. At least it is mine and not subject to lawmakers. In the nearly twenty years I’ve paid into the program, Congress has raised my retirement age at least twice. That’s another load of crap.

RF… You are comparing apples and oranges. Your mother worked under the framework of social security. She never planned to save for her own retirement because she knew she would get something from the government.

However, what if she never had to pay in…? She could have saved the money on her own and would more than likely have ended up with more assuming she would have saved the money on her own.

Many of the programs the left currently uses to buy votes were necessary at a certain time in our history. They are no longer necessary and should be phased out.

By Newz

September 13, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Breaking News: In response to the mother of all PR crises, and after days of intensive work with a speech therapist, the President uttered the following three words consecutively, “I take responsibility.” Afterward, Unka Karl took the boy to Brewster’s where he selected a cookie-dough sundae with sprinkles. His sparkly new bicycle helmet will arrive this evening. What a big day for the Boy King!

By taboga

September 13, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

I made an argument in an earlier post, something completely absent from the posts by conservatives here. If you are interested you can go back and read it.

Not interested at all - but thanks for asking.

In Aristotle’s moral philosophy he argued for a hierarchy of moral development with a class of individuals who failed to obtain the first rung. These he called bestial. You can perhaps draw the inference, though I am not sure.

Not interested in what Aristotle had to say either.

By Ken

September 13, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Lozen… I will definitely take a look at that book, but like every issue, there are books and theories covering both sides of the social security dilemma.

I however, do not believe we would have ended up like Russia. That revolt happened because of an opporessive, totalitarian government, millions of casualties during WWI as well as the economic status of the lower classes. That combination has never occured here.

Our country survived for nearly 150 years without welfare, social security and other massive government programs, so there is nothing to make me believe we could not have continued to survive. I do not believe there would be a large number of people starving in the streets. I do not believe old people would be left with nothing.

I believe people would have become more responsible with what economic means they acquire. I believe people would live within their means and not on credit. I believe people would take care of their own elderly relatives. I believe people would have more of an incentive to go out and get an education, learn a trade, perform any type of job available.

Please do not think I do not understand your POV and that potential scenario. I do. I simply do not agree with the likelihood or proposed extent.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

RENEE - Have you considered the ramifications of employers not having any mandated wage?

Furthermore, I never quite understood the big deal about minimum wage - what employer actually wants to pay their employee less than $5.35/hr? If the argument is one of principle, then I understand. But, if it’s an economic argument, I just don’t get it.

But I don’t want to imagine what non-professional wages would be without a minimum wage…

By Vince

September 13, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

Hi Jack,

I don’t remember ever playing the race card. Unlike bigots, I don’t value human life based on skin color. It’s the God created soul that is important.

Isn’t the race card usually a “spin” definition used by non blacks to accuse blacks of trying to use their skin color as a reason for some injustice?

While the color of my skin has nothing at all to do with anything, I am not black.

And, I think it is vile that the only comment about all of the people who’ve lost their lives, their homes, their jobs, and their stability, is to sheepishly side step the crisis, and attempt to insult me.

I guess since Atlanta wasn’t flooded like the Gulf Coast was, it’s perfectly ok to remain cold hearted and uncaring. Honestly, have you never been to a funeral? Or seen your home with flood damage?

Oh, wait… I take back those questions. You have to have a feeling heart to feel the pain going on right now. Sorry. The heartless folks are the ones that spit on the messenger and ignore the tragedy.

By Michael H.

September 13, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

Taboga,

Why I am not surprised that a dogmatic illiterate and ideologue would be uninterested in argument, evidence, and great philosophers? Remain in your political Alice in Wonderland, fine with me.

And some people wonder how a how political illiterate, religious fundamentalist could have become president of the United States.

By Ken

September 13, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me… Have you ever owned a business…? All business owners want to spend as little as possible for labor and materials.

If a business owner can get good labor for $2/hr, why should they pay $3/hr…? They should only pay more if they believe the extra wage is adding something to their business.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Yeah right.

By taboga

September 13, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

I however, do not believe we would have ended up like Russia. That revolt happened because of an opporessive, totalitarian government, millions of casualties during WWI as well as the economic status of the lower classes. That combination has never occured here.

Actually, the revolution happened because the Communists managed to convince the Proletariat (Workers) of their society that they needed to destroy the Bourgesoise (Capitalists) in order to have a better life for themselves.

(Same thing the Liberals have convinced many of here).

And of course, once the rubes gobbled-up all that nonsense and fought to overthrow the existing government - the Communists took control and we all should know the rest of the story…

There’s absolutely no difference between Liberal ideology and that of Communism. None whatsoever. And we have more than our share of rubes here in this country that are gobbling down the Liberal nonsense. It’s out here on this blog everyday.

By Dusty

September 13, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Oh my goodness, our pure and simple Michael H. has resorted to NAMECALLING. I thought liberals NEVER stooped to such depths. (You’re right, RF. Cooties are the problem.) Then Michael H. drags Aristotle into the foray. He had better watch out. I might tell him what Socrates said. So there.

And Vince, maybe you forgot. Smoking is not allowed in presidential offices.

By RF

September 13, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Vince folks here are hardly ignoring the tragedy. I think it is good that there is debate about how to handle it best. That allows for change to be made in the future to hopefully prevent some of the suffering we have seen. All points of view have to be considered and respected, even if you don’t agree with them.

Ken, perhaps it’s possible if there weren’t social security then maybe some folks would have saved on their own. I use my mother as an example only to point out the importance of caring for our elderly, many of whom don’t have families to take them in during those years. Her generation agreed to social security as a guaranteed retirement free from the auspices of private banking and investment. I think the premise behind it is good, but like many federally managed funds, it is likely to be abused and mismanaged. Considering the size of it, I’m not surprised. Our generation sees the obvious flaws, and many of us are investing in other options. For people without the money or knowledge of investing, social security offered, at least for a time, the belief that something would be there later in life. I’m not counting on having it, but I will continue to pay into it in the hopes that at least my mother’s generation can survive. What we need, and must have within our generation’s span of life, is a better system of checks and balances and accounting for public use funds like social security and welfare. There’s the problem—there’s not enough investigation and follow-up to catch the abusers and get them off the system.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

Renee - so last month in my apartment complex, the black man that shot his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend to death wasn’t a hate crime? He wasn’t targeting them based on skin color he was targeting them based on the fact that he hated she wasn’t with him anymore and hated the man she was with.

Just being Me - No not every crime is hate but trying to decide what is and what isn’t would be impossible, that’s what I meant, sorry, I worded that differently before (but please don’t call my views ridiculous, as soon as I start insulting you then feel free but respect that I haven’t). A majority of crimes have an underlining of hate regardless of who was targeted. And I agree..crime is crime. period.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

KEN - I have and I do. I can assure you that, while I understand your point, I would NEVER pay a human being $2.00/hr in this millennium, unless the value of a USD drastically changed.

And again, please name one employer that even WANTS to pay its employees less than $5.35/hr. Hell, even McDs starts you at $8/hr. Einstein Bagels at $10!

By Renee

September 13, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Justbeingme, I just don’t feel as if the government should mandate what a business pays their employees. They may be able to get the job done for less than minimum wage and if so, why should they not have the right to do so. A business will find out if they are asking an accountant to work for $3.00 an hour and they can’t find anyone to hire, that they may need to raise their wages.

Another example is the smoking ban. I don’t smoke, I hate being around smoke, I think second hand smoke is quite dangerous. But why should we tell a business they are not allowed to have patrons who smoke. If a person does not want to visit the establishment then they have the right. Now if most of the businesses patrons are nonsmokers and they CHOOSE to make it nonsmoking to accomodate their patrons, without being mandated, that should be their right.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Buildingbridges you have a valid point and have given me something to think about. Like I said before, maybe if the penalties were stiffer on crimes to begin with we wouldn’t be discussing this now.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Isn’t the race card usually a “spin� definition used by non blacks to accuse blacks of trying to use their skin color as a reason for some injustice?

I know that someone seemingly knowledgable of the going on’s would not really believe this…this ‘card’ is used often. I watched a movie where everything that happened to her, her defensive response was “it’s because I’m black!” I know that’s not always the case but I do tend to get tired of hearing it. Just like I know that sometimes it IS because of the color of skin it does go both ways.

By dee

September 13, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

A society is judged on how they treat their poor. I’m surprised at some of you!! Where are all those bible totting, verse quoting, hallejuah christians at? Jesus said to always remember our poor, widows, and our children and to take care of them so that OUR blessings will multiply. Some of you guys sound like Scrooge!!! Why not trying LIVING some of those bible verses you love to QUOTE so much? What Would Jesus Do?

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

BB - I’m sorry if I insulted you, that wasn’t my intention. But, if your view is that all crimes are hate crimes, then I find that to be a ridiculous view. However, it sounds like that’s not what you meant anyway, so my point is a moot one.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

Renee. The smoking ban was also put in place to protect the non-smoking staff at the establishments where the ban is in place. I wouldn’t want to wait tables in a cloud of smoke all night if I didn’t smoke.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

I think the smoking issue is more of a health issue rather than a control issue. Not everything politicians do are for control.

I’m highly allergic to anything tobacco related, including the second hand smoke and there were no resturants that I have ever gone to where the smoking and non-smoking sections were truely seperated allowing me to have a pleasant dinner out.

By Netbanker

September 13, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Sandy…my condolences to you and your family on the death of your cousin. Sorry to hear that you won’t be around too terribly much yet I understand as I too haven’t had recently and won’t have much time in the future for these debates.

Good luck to all as the impending recession crashes over us like a storm surge onto the Gulf Coast.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Just being me - its all good. :)

By Smoker

September 13, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Non-smokers who are bothered by smoke when they go out or where they work, can be the good Free-Market-Advocates this blog so highly promotes and take their business elsewhere or find other employment. In the same way those who do not want to work for $2 an hour can find other employment.

It’s real simple.

By RF

September 13, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

—something to think about here and keep in mind. Don’t we as a society have different expectations of different groups? Often without meaning to we put people in a position where they feel like maybe their skin color does matter too much. As a society we have low expectations for young black men, and I guarantee you a lot of people get a little nervous when a group of young black men walks into a store. I’ve been there and gotten the unspoken message. I’m not saying it’s obvious or intentional, but we do notice skin color and often make people feel like skin color is a problem. It’s kind of a knee-jerk reaction that, while not always correct, is all too often true.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Jack, I understand what you are saying but I think even for the employees, that is a choice. We choose under which circumstances we work.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Dee - I think that the problem is that a lot of the ‘poor’ take advantage of the good will. For example…in recent events, the $2000 debit cards that were being handed out to the misplaced New Orleans residents. There were people there to collect that weren’t even FROM there! There is always someone looking for a handout. I give in other ways I don’t like being forced to pay for people to live when those people keep having babies just to get more money…

By Crasher

September 13, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

Like that scene in the movie Crash where the Ludacris character is lamenting the perception the whites probably have of him in Westwood, we are led to believe it is wrong, and then he and the other guy carjack the D.A. Duh.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Smoker - that’s fine, but have some common decency. I chose not to smoke for my own health. Don’t subject me to your second hand smoke that is JUST as dangerous as if I were actually smoking. We chose where to work, your right, so now we are going to have a segragated nation smokers against non-smokers? how mature.

RF - your right, it is a knee-jerk reaction to a certain degree. There are steriotypes that are there and will probabl always be there. The point that I keep trying to make is that it’s a two way street! I have been treated JUST as badly from other races based soley on the fact of my skin color, or where I’m from.

By RF

September 13, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

So do we shut the whole system down just to be sure we get the ones abusing it? That’s the problem—not that we’re giving to those in need, but that we can’t find a logical way to check them out or follow up on them. There will always be those looking for a quick buck, but can we really justify ending welfare or any other system of help just because of the few? I’m all for getting more people off the system and making them work for a living, but it takes time and knowledge of how to adapt to keep them off. Just ending it won’t solve the problem. Doesn’t California use a welfare step-down program to help wean people off welfare over time? I too believe many are poor by choice, and need to do better, but there has to be a way found to help them change besides just ending welfare.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

RF - Even the most pure-in-heart has “expectations” for different groups be they age groups, gender groups, sexual preference groups, races, nationalities, etc. I think it’s an inherent part of social conditioning.

I guess where it becomes a problem is when you allow those perceptions to define the entire group, or make decisions based on the expected behavior of someone in that group instead of basing it on his or her own merit.

Last night while moonlighting at the Dome, I overheard a teenager make a comment about hating “—-” people. When I asked him how he could come to hate an entire group of people in just 18 short years, his response was a long list of stereotypes. Although they may have been based on real experiences he had, and I’m sure they were, it still wasn’t enough - in my opinion - to decide to hate everyone in that group based on the actions of some.

I realize this is a naive explanation, but I really think it all boils down to upbringing. Parents slip up and make discriminatory comments in front of their children, and the children take it from there…

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

I am still amazed at how well the govt screwed up the reflief effort(all levels - but where does the buck stop? Big Ws pocket is where!); especially after using tax dollars for a table-top excercise that illustrated exactly what the problems were.

Just wanted to say that again;)

By dee

September 13, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

From Buidling Bridges: Dee - I think that the problem is that a lot of the ‘poor’ take advantage of the good will.”

This is true — the same way a lot of the rich take advantage of their situations too. Some don’t pay taxes for years, or hide their money in off shore accounts, or steal from their investors, or rob the companies pension funds or……….

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Couldn’t they have teamed up with the SSA to run those SSNs to determine the applicant’s last place of employment? Obviously, it’s not fool-proof (esp. since so many didn’t have any ID), but surely it’s better than nothing.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

A non-smoking section in a restaurant is like a no-peeing section in a swimming pool.

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

I can honestly say that I have met just as many crooked rich folk as I have met crooked poor folk.

Do you really think you can state something en generalmente regarding the poor? (besides: “they are poor” )

That is insanity; you know you cannot generalize a group that is heterogenous; but think you can with a homogenous one?

By RF

September 13, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Just being me—It is indeed a part of upbringing. We’re taught to hate by parents, peers, and what we see and hear on television; which is where a great many of our social stereotypes come from. Sad thing is it only takes a few to create the stereotype-sadder still how often individuals choose to live according to the stereotypes. We accept what we see on tv and think it must be true-for ourselves and others. I can’t personally stand to watch music videos for the ideals of life they present and people buy into.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

Dee- I totally agree! Hopefully they will get caught and have to pay it all back! Those on welfare, don’t pay taxes (right? I might be wrong about that), when they get back on their feet, do they pay back what they were given?

FatMoose - I’ve been watching for you today. How is Moose? Unfortunately, my kitty sabrina didn’t make it through the weekend. :-( Her little liver was just too diseased and bit by bit she started shutting down. I hope Moose has a much better fate and a happy healing!

By Greg

September 13, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

It’s true that racism works both ways. I am always cautious when I am around older white people. Just from perception, they look at me with disdain because I am a tall, black male or the women hold their purses tight when I walk by them.

Going to a predominately white college, you hear people your age make comments about black people all the time, the same comments you hear on here.

And whoever it was that said that the person had nappy hair should be b*tchslapped. Do you think that during conception that that person asked to be born with thick hair? And on top of that, why should they straighten their hair to fit White America’s standards? Should they fry their hair with a perm until it looks like straw?

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Jack - LOL that’s a great analogy.

FatMoose - absolutetly not. I wasn’t trying to generalize a group, I’m sorry it came across that way. I hate when people make generalizations and here I go making one, not intentionally, but one just the same. Thanks for calling me on that. And I certainly didn’t mean to imply that the rich were honest. Whew there are some seriously crooked rich people out there.

By RF

September 13, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Just being me—this is exactly why fingerprint ID is invaluable. You can lose your ID in a storm, but your fingerprint is always with you. With all the social security fraud, it seems to me it might be time to get a fingerprint ID database linked to license departments going. That fool in Alpharetta wouldn’t have gotten near that money if her SSN and fingerprint were linked in a database that could be accessed on-site as they gave out the money.

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Bridges, Thanks for thinking about me.

The vet thinks Moose has enough “stored energy” (fat) to make it 2-3 weeks at this pace - he refuses to eat. We eliminated any of the illnesses besides the big hitters and are thinking liver cancer.

He has been through 3 girlfriends (long term), my father passing, 9 moves, dozens of cats/dogs as house mates, etc - going to be like loosing my left arm.

Sorry to hear about your loss. Funny how pets fill a special spot that human companionship (as great as people are) does not (unconditional love, etc).

By thom

September 13, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

moose, your mouth is loose. If I get a scratch and I don’t do anything about it, its my fault. If the scratch gets infected and I don’t do anything about it, its still my fault. If when Iam ready to call the doctor and my wife says, “lets wait and see if it heals itself”, and my arm falls off its my fault for listening to my wife. You see moosey, the arm fell off long before the doctor could fix it.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Jack - I liked that

Buildingbridges - I am so sorry to hear that, I would be so heartbroken to lose my kitty, my condolences.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Greg - I know your right about those things. I absolutetly hate hearing things like that. It really does go both ways though, like you said. Don’t tell me that when a (for example me) middle classed, business dressed white female walks in a place predominately black, that she doesn’t get judged or that she isn’t free from prejudice.

By Van

September 13, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Dee, you stated as fact the old liberal tripe “A society is judged on how they treat their poor”. This is so false.

How were the ancient Greeks judged? How about the wonders of Rome? How did we judge the old Soviet Union?

We judge societies based on what they achieve, good or bad. Ancient Greece are known as the birth place of philosophy and a land of mighty warriors. The old Soviet Union was know for its stifling lack of human rights.

Please grow up, those that can’t work should get our help, those that want to get out of poverty, will and those that can work and choose not to, deserve nothing.

By Chantel

September 13, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

President Bush said Tuesday that “I take responsibility” for failures in dealing with Hurricane Katrina.

Finally.

Now hopefully all the Bush-can-do-no-wrong people will get their heads out of the sand and realize it was the federal government’s responsibility to take charge of this disaster, and they failed to do so. Even Bush admits it.

By Scott

September 13, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Some days it seems like this country is almost as divided as it was during and preceding the War between the States, though not neccessarily along regional boundaries. I read commments from Michael H and Lozen, et. al about how “conservatives” and “evangelicals”, as if that were one and the same (which it is not) are cold hearted, misguided, illiterate, ignorant, and generally oppressive, while citing literary text and literary history to show how they must be right becasue they have shown themselves (in their own opinion, mind you) to be intellectually superior.

Then I turn to read the reponse of Taboga, Ken, et. al accuse liberals of attacking the fabric of the foundation of this country, lacking morals, leaning toward communism, and generally tearing down the walls of this country, while describing a general feeling of being fed up with the liberals and parasites ( not to say that they are the same)

It is disheartening to me more often than not that we can seem to find no common ground. We seem to be more interested in who is at fault (Dubya and Uncle Sugah or the people themselves for not taking care fo themselves depending on your opinion) rather than coming together to build a solution. Neither side is interested in live and let live or finding a middle ground, simply picking which enemy to fight, which all too often is each other

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

Fatmoose - That’s exactly how it has felt (losing an arm). She’s pulled me through a lot, including losing my dog last year and getting through serious illnesses. Just everything. There is definitely something that they fill that humans can’t.

She got to the point that she refused to eat. We gave the feeding tube a shot and it was just her time to go I suppose. I probably kept her alive an extra week or two. She’s happy now.

Just love your baby until the time comes. As long as his quality of life isn’t being compromised letting him live out his life is what I would do too. I’m sorry to hear that it’s something more serious. It’s the hard thing about pets that they don’t live nearly long enough!

Thank you Renee!

By taboga

September 13, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Michael,

Tell you what. Why don’t you quit hiding behind Aristotle and the likes and let’s see what you have. Let’s see what great intellect you have. I’ve seen you do nothing but critique and quote scholars. So, do you, unlike most of you Leftist pretenders, have any original ideas of your own…?

By E. G. Salomon

September 13, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Scott - My thoughts precisely…

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Thom,

Ever been homeless?

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

GREG - If you read a bit further, you’ll see that the person who made that comment apologized for it. It’s now a dead issue.

BB - Please clarify: exactly what would you be judged for if you simply walked into a “predominantly black place” in business attire?????? Are you saying that you would be judged for your attire???

By RF

September 13, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

And Scott, it’s the debate and sharing of information that helps keep this country going. Think about it, as polarized as this group has been (and is every week), look at the country and how moderate it is overall. Even the Supreme Court is known for being moderate of late. From the looks of things I’ve seen, we are working together. We throw jabs at each other along the way, but that’s what makes America work. It’s the tug of war that actually keeps the balance somewhere near where it needs to be.

By dee

September 13, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

From Building Bridges: “Dee- I totally agree! Hopefully they will get caught and have to pay it all back! Those on welfare, don’t pay taxes (right? I might be wrong about that), when they get back on their feet, do they pay back what they were given?”

I doubt if they pay it back financially — but a lot pay it back in other ways. By becoming a big brother or a big sister or a counselor or mentor to someone else who might find themselves in the same situation, or to stop someone from getting into that type of situation in the first place. Experience is really a great teacher. They may even pay it back by trying their best NOT to get on the system again. I know that the media loves to portray the stereotypical welfare recipient as an urban, ghetto, obese, black woman with seven or eight kids from seven or eight different men, but the truth is, (which has been proven time and time again); that the majority of people who are on welfare aren’t black women but white ones. Also the truth is the majority of people on welfare live in the poor Appalachian mountains region not in big cities.

So it’s amazing to me when I read these posts by people who own computers and can look up the truth for themselves; but yet they still insist on being blind.

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

Bridges,

FYI - I was not responding to you specifically; but to the notion that one can even speak about the poor as if they are from a cookie-cutter.

But have to say I am impressed seeing as you are the ONLY one who ammended their point.

(Heck, Tab has been demanding, arrogantly as a 13yo, that their is no blame to be had by WB; and then his commander and chief admits to being in err. What happens to your point now tab?)

By taboga

September 13, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

Far too much complication surrounds the “can’t we just find common ground, etc…” argument.

The simple answer: There is no common ground. And you can’t find what isn’t there.

By Scott

September 13, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

RF - I would agree with ou that the debate and “tug of war” is a valuable and viable part of American culture. Void of respect for the opposition as a person with the same right of opinion as the next person, and it no longer is an exchange of opinion and information, but rather a mud-slinging brawl that breeds nothing but division rather than mutually edifying discourse

By Atman

September 13, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this

And this is a debate HOW?

All I’m seeing are people insulting and being complete @$$holes to each other back and forth.

Of course, there are like 3 or 4 people that actually give good points (both Conservatives and Liberals) without name calling nor insulting the opposition’s intelect.

Other than that… I don’t know.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

Dee, I hear you, but how many are giving back. There is a large percent who not only don’t give back but continue to stay on it if not forced to get off of it.

By Jack

September 13, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

Scott. It was blown when they didn’t listen to George Washington and had a 2 party system instead of 1. Each party has their share of good ideas but partisanship gets in the way most of the time.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

just being me - lol, no I was just painting a picture. Clarifying who I am and that I’ve been given looks of disdain when in those situations. Not by how I’m dressed just because I’m different than the normal clientelle.

dee - thats why I asked because I wasn’t clear on that. that is the image painted when thinking about welfare because that is what is put out there. it’s not true but unfortunately it’s what the majority of people think about.

Have you ever laughed at a joke that for all intent purposes was meant to be prejudice? A joke about the residents of alabama for example. It might have meant to be a joke but the stereotype is still there and it’s the picture that is painted about everyone from there regardless of how educated they are. (I know…completely different level, but similar affects)

By Scott

September 13, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Taboga - I would would agree thaqt the problems are complicated, however, I would disagree with the statement that there can be no common ground (that statement has been proven wrong time and again through American and World history) I would say that is oversimplifying

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

FatMoose - “But have to say I am impressed seeing as you are the ONLY one who ammended their point.”

I don’t understand. Not being a brat, I just don’t get what you mean. Maybe I’ve been unclear (totally possible) or I’ve tried to be too P.C. and sugarcoat a lot of what I say (again totally possible).

By Scott

September 13, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Jack - or perhaps it was blown by having a party system at all?

By dee

September 13, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

OK. let me grow up and list some facts for you: It is estimated that over 35 million Americans live below the poverty line and more than 45 million do not have health care. More striking is the fact that nearly 13 million children, or over 17 percent of the under-18 population, live in poverty.

The Greek and Roman empires are remembered for their culture as well as for their brutality towards anyone who they thought “lesser” than them. They are remembered for the sadism, their haughtiness and hatred, their rampant disdain for anyone not like themselves. The first Christians, the poor, the down trodden, the lepers, the Jews, came to Jesus because of the brutality and oppression of their Roman overlords. Most revolutions in history were not started by the “Haves” but by the “Have Nots.” And the Have Nots are usually meaner, leaner, and stronger than the haves; so they’ve usually won. Have we not learned anything from history?

By thom

September 13, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

moose, only been homeless when my wife locks the front door. However, because this country is so great I have the freedom to better myself each and everyday. My hurdels to jump in life might be more or less than my neighbors but if Iam going make it, I either jump the hurdels or I stand at the first one complain because I have more than the next guy and expect someone to remove my extra hurdles. Life is not fair but we have in this country the freedom to be the best we can be each and everyday.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

ATMAN - Actually, there are really only one or two that are intentionally being insulting to individuals. Compared to some of the other debates I’ve witnessed, this one is rather civil.

By Just Being Me

September 13, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

BB - Well, sweetheart, if you walk into Taliah Waajid in the West End, a salon the specializes in styling dreadlocks and other natural hair styles… yes, they’ll probably look at you “funny”.

But, that’s not discriminating, nor is it judgmental in any way.

Not a good example.

By Poster

September 13, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

The Greek and Roman empires are remembered for their culture as well as for their brutality towards anyone who they thought “lesser� than them.

And they are now dead empires. See any current comparisons?

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

just being me - yeah…haha. Yeah that is a little bit of an extreme example. I was referring to a local retail store in my area of town that I pretty much got laughed out of. They sold beauty products for ALL skin colors and types.

By Renee

September 13, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Good comparison justbeingme

By FatMoose

September 13, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Bridges; It was a compliment;) Don’t sweat it.

Have a good day all.

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

what if I want dreadlocks? just teasing now

By taboga

September 13, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

FootMouse,

It would appear that your understanding of what the President said is far more along the lines of a “13 year old”.

The President did little more than a Football Coach does when he takes the heat for his players.

You may care to quibble about insignificant press releases which amount to nothing, but they don’t interest me much.

By Scott

September 13, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Just Being Me - A funny story real quick, going off what you were talking about….At one point early in my career, I worked in a precinct on the south side of Atlanta. I’m not black, but the vast majority of the community I protected was. I usually worked at night (10p-6a) so I interacted with fewer business owners than residents. One day I had to go down to the precinct during the day to get an overtime paycheck and decided to stop at a bbq place I knew was good and walked in to order. I walked up to the counter, ordered my food and waited. It was going to take a minute, so the guy behind the counter told me he would bring it out if I wanted to sit down. I got plenty of looks because I was the only white guy in the place, some of curiousity, some of surprise, and some of contempt. I was in jeans and a tshirt but when he brought me my food he said “hope you like it, officer” I looked at him and asked if I knew him. He told me, no, but he knew I must be a police officer from around there because I didn’t look afraid and acted like I belonged there. He smiled and walked away. It was pretty funny at the time…take from it what you will

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Ooh. I like compliments. :) Take care of Moose man!

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Ooohh.. I like compliments (even if I don’t recognize them as such.) :)

Take care of Moose man!

By buildingbridges

September 13, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

Ok that’s weird. When I posted it said it couldn’t and to try again so I did and it posted the first one that was originally stated as not being able to be posted and the second one.

hmmm… And we thought the nation was in trouble but it turns out that it’s all the internets fault! :)

By taboga

September 13, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

Scott,

It basically boils down this way: Two different ideologies going in two separate directions.

The reason for so much contention today is simple: Republicans are in the majority. For years on end - the country was moving in the Liberal direction and as such - there was no clamoring for: “Bi-partisanship”, “working together”, etc…

The elections of 1994 changed all of that. The Democrats lost their power and all of a sudden, overnight, we all need to “work together” became the mantra.

But the real truth in all of this is that the Left has no intention of “working together” or anything of the sort. They simply want their power back. And that’s ok. Totally fine.

But it does no one on the Conservative side of the aisle any good to assist them in doing so by: Working with them…

By Lou B

September 13, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

First, GOVERNMENT created in an atmosphere of partisanship is biased and unreliable. That has been proven by both parties time and time again. It’s time to abolish political parties altogether. Let each person run on her or his own merits.

Second, if Emergency Management is all the State and Local government’s responsibility, then why do we have a FEMA? If it isn’t the Fed’s responsibility, then so be it, let’s disband this obviously dysfunctional organization now, and save a hank of a lot of money. Let each state take that money, and form an EMA that is dedicated to itself. In a catastrophic situation, the neighboring states can assist when needed. I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious. The Republicans run on a “less government” platform that decies the “big, nanny government” of the Democrats. But GWB has done nothing to decrease the goverment in his term, even with a one-party rule for much of it. Let the states have thier own money back, to run our schools and our emergencies and other social programs as the citizens of that state see fit. Like it or not, folks THAT is the idea that this country was founded on. “Congress shall have the power to regulate INTERSTATE COMMERCE” and precious little else, in the words of those founding fathers. Thos same ones who said “The United States is in NO WAY a Christian nation”.

The comment about requiring the state legislature’s approval before mobilizing the STATE’s militia is right on target, and fits this same vein.

Another: the response here is due to INCOME, not race. I’m from NO. I can tell you that there are very few BLACKS left there. Many are now interracial. (Whether they care to recognize it or not.) But like Sentencing Disparity in the courts, if you compare the INCOME levels with the treatment, you will see that race disappears very quickly as a factor. With the current administration, religious affiliation (or percieved lack thereof) will also be a factor.

I think I disagree with oft-quoted “four days notice” that the hurricane was coming. As of Late Friday evening, the storm path indicated, actually, this place, the ATL, not New Orleans. Even well into Saturday afternoon, the path was Alabama/Mississippi. The Louisiana Projection didn’t happen until very late Saturday, possibly early Sunday. But that is (pardon) water under the bridge.

Thanks, go back to your sniping now….

By Scott

September 13, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Taboga - Neither party has the market cornered on moral superiority, that much is clear and easily proven. You are correct in your statement that it is a power struggle. My point is that working together does not or should not, involve a power struggle rather a power enhancement for both sides by finding common ground and cause. As Jack pointed out that problems began by the division into 2 politcial parties instead of one. But perhaps it would be better if there were no political parties but a more pure democratic republic that bends toward the will of the people rahter than whatever special interest group pulls the most money and influence

By Scott

September 13, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Additionally, a lesson we should remember today from the 1860’s

* A house divided against itself cannot stand - Abraham Lincoln, 16th President of the United States*

By taboga

September 14, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this

Scott,

Why would we be concerned about who might have “Moral Superiority”?

And what is so wonderful about “working together”? Why would we have a goal of “working together”? The idea that we simply “work together” accomplishes absolutely nothing.

I mean, if you wanted to fix the leaking roof and I didn’t, what do we do - put a bucket under the leak to catch the water? “Working together” we came up with a ridiculous solution, but we can pat ourselves on the back for: “Working together”.

My interest would be in doing the right thing - “working together” or not. And working with an ideology that wants to turn this nation into yet another failed socialist society is asinine and destructive.

Liberalism is just like cancer - it destroys everything it comes in contact with. And I am not interested in the least in accepting even a little bit of it - just so we can say we are “working together”.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 07:47 AM | Link to this

Additionally, a lesson we should remember today from the 1860’s

A house divided against itself cannot stand - Abraham Lincoln, 16th President of the United States

Scott,

Another lesson we should remember:

A house won’t stand if you let the termites destroy it - Taboga, AJC blog 2005.

By Tony

September 14, 2005 07:52 AM | Link to this

Actually Scott, Abraham Lincoln got the quote from the bible in Matthew 12:25

But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

Your goal of working together is honorable. Sadly and as in 1860 the divide runs deep.

By RF

September 14, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

And since 1865, this nation has stood through trial and tribulation, in part because there are two fiercely divided parties that end up balancing each other over time. Regardless of “majority” in congressional bodies across this country, the “minority” always manages to keep some balance going. Everyone is to be applauded for their ardent support of a system of beliefs AND their conviction that the other side is wrong. We argue, debate, point fingers, call names, and in the end we get to a compromise and people go on with their lives. It isn’t the end of the country folks, it’s what keeps us going—one side fighting the other and making each accountable. Fear not, we have managed this long—I think we have a little while longer left…

By Bobb

September 14, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this

Go to the Washington Post site and read Anne Applebaum’s column - a well written piece about the role and effectiveness of government versus private response.

By Archie

September 14, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this

“A former FEMA director under President Reagan expressed shock by the inaction that Chertoff’s memo suggested. It showed that Chertoff “does not have a full appreciation for what the country is faced with - nor does anyone who waits that long,” said Gen. Julius Becton Jr., who was FEMA director from 1985-1989.” “Anytime you have a delay in taking action, there’s a potential for losing lives,” Becton told Knight Ridder. “I have no idea how many lives we’re talking about. … I don’t understand why, except that they were inefficient.”

I only posted that to say I don’t know what planet Shanti is on,since there has been bipartisan criticism of the federal government. Just admit they screwed up and move on. Protecting Bush is not necessary in this case because he’s already acknowledged some failure in this case just as a leader should. I think Bush should clean house and “make it right” as he says. Of course some housecleaning maybe needed at the state and local level as well.

By Bruce

September 14, 2005 08:48 AM | Link to this

It seems to me that the citizens of the United States are very much like syblings in a family. They bicker back and forth with each other but let an outsider try something and Katie bar the door.

Face it folks even though we may not like each other very much we really love each other, and in most cases enough to die for each other. That is why America is so great. It may appear we are divided but we truely are not.

By Lyrazel

September 14, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this

The problems our federal agencies are faced with comes from cronyism and lack of concern and planning for major emergencies by government agencies for citizens. I have nothing but the most respect for persons who volunteered to assist victims and who are continuing to aid those in need. This is Americans at their best, but the disaster also showed America (at least my America) is completely unprepared to evacuate large metropolitan areas. Nursing homes were not evacuated, hospitals were not evacuated prior to the hurricane even when the mayor said to evacuate. Why? Probably because the money it would cost to evacuate patients needing medical care was seen as unnecessary expence…and such places are there to make money—not for the welfare of the patients. Certainly 47 dead elderly patients in just one home should direct attention to the confusion and lack of civil defense enforcement. In the year ahead this disaster will wreck the budgets of states across the nation, we pay for war, we pay for rebuilding, assistance to survivors and salaries of government officials whose job is keeping the American voter blind to the erosion and decline of the intrastructure and safety of its cities. While some see poverty and race as being troubling to watch on tv few could not see how quickly state and federal government dissolved under the magnitude of this disaster. From heads of state to the mayor to the man who calls himself president it was very obvious the system of cronyism was so firmly in place that at the time of greatest need our government turned to find yet another cronie totally unprepared for such an emergency in a position of power. This is your America. It is broke and the debts keep coming…but while you begin turning off news about the war, or disasters in the coming months, know that the further eroding your standards of living, safety and quality of life by removing services like civil defense, emergency management and other vital programs is still in place. New Orleans is just the first disaster to show how bad the system really is.

By RF

September 14, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

It ain’t perfect, but what government system is?? Of all the “empires” that existed when the US was formed, none of them exist now in their original form, but US is still going strong. If the system is so bad, then people woudln’t still be flocking here and risking death to get here. It’s not great, but it’s better than most anywhere else out there. We’ve got our problems, and over the years we’ve fixed a lot and created others. Adjustment, change, and flexibility are part of our system. Don’t let the media and general angst keep you from realizing that we still have it pretty good here. We can complain, hate it, love it, whatever- but who among us would give it up and move to a third world country? Keep that in mind as we wail about the inadequacies and problems.

By Mara

September 14, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

FEMA used to be one of the best-run, most efficient organizations in the Federal government…but that was under Bill Clinton. In ‘97 when Grand Forks and the entire Red River Valley flooded, you didn’t see this kind of ho-hum response. In fact, the ND National Guard had been directed to shore up the banks of the Red River (as well as the dikes and levees that kept the river in its bed) weeks before the flood hit, even though no one thought that it would actually flood. FEMA director Jim Witt was all over ND getting people signed up for flood insurance. When the levee did breech, FEMA and HHS were there almost immediatly with the National Guard, evacuating and housing the displaced. The Minneapolis Star/Tribune had a great write-up comparing the responses of the Bush FEMA and the Clinton FEMA. It’s well worth the read.
It’s my opinion that the difference in response comes from the differing view of government. Liberals like Clinton believe that the government can be a powerful tool to do good works and improve society for all people. Conservatives like Bush see no good use for government and would like, as Grover Nyquist once said, to get it small enough to drown it in the bathtub. To them, no government is good government, and if you can’t make it on your own…too damn bad.

By Mecca

September 14, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

Yeahhhhh!!! Louie B.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this

The problems our federal agencies are faced with comes from cronyism and lack of concern and planning for major emergencies by government agencies for citizens.

Lyrazel,

How on EARTH do you make these charges?

I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut, that before Katrina, you couldn’t name one person involved in “emergency planning” - much less what anyone’s roles and responsibilities are!

And in addition to that, you haven’t one clue as to what might have gone wrong and why - and who is to blame and why!

Yet, you throw out this utter nonsense about a “lack of concern and planning” along with all the other prattling in your post…

What is it with you people? Do you have some sort of Death Wish that gets you all excited every time something negative happens?

Is it at all possible, that there is even one thing left that many of you folks haven’t whined and moaned about?

By Jack

September 14, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

Hindsight is always 20/20.

By RF

September 14, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this

Taboga—you had to ask that question, didn’t ya? I’ll bet my savings we haven’t even scratched the surface of whining…like I said, let those who hate it so badly here go live in a slum of Mexico City—they’d be out on the first available flight back (that is if there’s an airline left operating in the US after they all get through filing bankruptcy). Folk sure can complain about it; wonder how many would leave??

By Bruce

September 14, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

They (local Government) had a plan, as we do here in Ga., they just didn’t follow the plan.

By RF

September 14, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

And when they didn’t follow the plan, they allllll cried foul because the feds didn’t come swooping in like Superman and fix it all for them the next day. Hopefully the powers that be in Louisiana will follow the president’s example and admit their blame. I think Nagin has, but I’m still waiting to hear Blanco say something—or does she have a reelection coming up soon?

By Jack

September 14, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

They can replace her with Marion Barry. :)

By RF

September 14, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

good one Jack! I was thinking maybe Roy Barnes should head down there and give her some help and advice.

By Bruce

September 14, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

No RF those good people in NO have gone through enough they do not need Roy Barnes. That would certainly be the last straw.

By CD

September 14, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

This country’s going bankrupt. Can we pay for liberating Iraq, rebuilding New Orleans, and tax cuts? We can put ourselves in a reality bubble and let our kids pay. But sooner or later, we’re mortgaging our country by letting the Chinese buy US bonds. Then we’ll be in the sweatshops for Walmart while trying to pay the interest on these bonds. A little money put in the prevention of the New Orleans problem could have prevented having to pay for the Katrina mess.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

CD,

There was a hell of a lot of money put in to the “prevention” of what happened - as you put it.

The problem was, the money that was allocated was not spent for that purpose!

And speaking of “tax cuts”. NOW, there is more reason than ever for tax cuts so as to spurn more growth in our economy!

By RF

September 14, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

And how much money exactly would it have taken to prevent a city sitting below sea level, surrounded by massive amounts of water from being flooded? Money that was already ear-marked for that task managed to be spent elsewhere. The 17th street levee was in fact “repaired” and deemed storm-worthy. Human intervention can only do so much against Mother Nature. It’s like living on the Florida coast. If you live there, you do your best to prepare and then you get the heck out of the way when necessary. Money can only do so much to prevent natural disaster. Intelligence and getting out of the way work a lot better in my opinion.

By Dusty

September 14, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

Ohooo, the Braves lost last night. Then this morning I read the newspaper. Not only do I suffer from down-score depression, I also have Whining Fatigue. Do you have a cure, Jack? I’ve tried chocolate creme pie but it does not work.

By chuck

September 14, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

First, Nobody lost their lives because the government was “slow to act”. To blame the government for loss of life in this situation is akin to a mass murderer saying he had to kill thos people because his Mama didn’t hug him enough when he was a kid. People lost their lives because they were too stupid to LEAVE New Orleans. Don’t tell me that it was because they were poor. Last time I looked, there was NO CORRELATION between being poor and being stupid. If those people who stayed there called city hall and said “We don’t have a way out and we need help”, then Mayor Nagin would be at fault. But that didn’t happen.

Would the situation be different if the Mayor had taken all of the city and school district buses down to those areas and ordered a MANDATORY evacuation? While that probably should have been done (at least then the buses would have been saved)I don’t think that those people would have left. They were convinced for the most part, that they could ride it out. They were wrong. I hate that they paid for their mistake with their lives, but they have nobody to blame but themselves. I have a number of new students whose parents did not make that mistake. They got out of the area when they were told to and though they lost many of their personal belongings, they are alive and well and adjusting.

The premise that Iraq has something to do with this is LUDICROUS.Just another opportunity for the lefties to go into their perpetual “blame Bush” mode. I heard a witticism the other day that reminded me of this tendency of Liberals who are so overcome by their hatred for our President that it clouds EVERYTHING they do: If the Sun exploded and life on earth was destined to end in moments, the Libs would use whatever amount of time they had BLAMING BUSH for it.

Bottom line #1: Nobody is to blame for this. It was a NATURAL DISASTER. Even if the highways into New Orleans had not been destroyed by the hurricane, and even if the Mayor had mandated evacuation in stronger terms, and even if the governor had mobilized the National Gaurd sooner, it would not have changed the outcome.

Bottom Line #2: Now is not the time to worry about who did or did not do their jobs perfectly. Now is the time for ALL OF US to do what we can to help those who have been displaced by Katrina. Give money if you have it, volunteer at a shelter, adopt a pet from the region, PRAY. WE ARE AMERICANS. WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN. We don’t need 1500 Commie doctors from Cuba. We don’t need any French tents. THIS IS AMERICA. BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know how many people died in the Atlanta area last week - not from a hurricane?

Almost every city in the country has people dying every week from natural causes. Except New Orleans.

Everyone who died there was the result of not being rescued from the hurricane!

By Michael H.

September 14, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

Taboga,

You seem to have posed a false dichotomy between being familiar with the views of philosophers and not having ideas of one’s own. There is no incompatibility. I am a reasonably well educated person and I make no apologies for that. I also teach philosophy at the college level. But the point is that you are such an ignorant, bigoted, intolerant, and irrational person that you cannot be reached by argument. That some people fit this description was an observation originally made by Aristotle and that is why I mentioned it.

Dusty, I am sure that you cannot tell me anything about Socrates that I do not know much more deeply than you. It was humorous reading your comment before I went to class to teach the Crito and then Book I of the Republic.

Don’t expect me to respond again to either of you two. I hold you both beneath contempt and a waste of time.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Dusty. It’s a little early for alcohol. Try watching a taped replay of the Braves 1st National Championship. Reading the paper will give you whining fatigue. Got to get that out of your system somehow… maybe attacking the whiners that show up on this blog will help. :)

By taboga

September 14, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

You seem to have posed a false dichotomy between being familiar with the views of philosophers and not having ideas of one’s own. There is no incompatibility. I am a reasonably well educated person and I make no apologies for that. I also teach philosophy at the college level. But the point is that you are such an ignorant, bigoted, intolerant, and irrational person that you cannot be reached by argument. That some people fit this description was an observation originally made by Aristotle and that is why I mentioned it.

I don’t give a damn who you are - or what you teach. And you have no “arugument” to be made - you’re just another in a long line of prattling Leftists.

BTW. Just for future reference - we don’t have to supply our credentials out here on the blog to make or prove point. Just state what you want to state - and move on. No one is interested in the least that your hiding from reality behind the halls of academia. And we don’t hold it against you.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

Micheal H. Remember: Those who can do. Those who can’t teach.

By Bruce

September 14, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

Next he’ll be telling us all how good looking he is and how much money he has. It always starts with the education.

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this

It’s very easy to sit in the comfort of our homes or offices and speculate about the poor. What THEY would do, should do, should have done, need to do, etc. If you haven’t walked a mile in another person’s shoes your basically spouting BS.

Chuck…quite a number of those “too stupid to LEAVE” were turned back on the I10 bridge while attempting to WALK out of the city on their own. As for your bottom line #1, what planet are you on? The city would still have been devastated by floods…I’ll grant you that, but there are plenty of people who would have survived had they been provided a way to get out.

Well Taboga it’s good to finally here you admit it…”Liberalism is just like cancer - it destroys everything it comes in contact with. And I am not interested in the least in accepting even a little bit of it - just so we can say we are “working togetherâ€?.” You’re against ideas not because they may not be valid or good, but due to the source. God Bless the Liberal cancer that destroyed slavery, provided women the right to vote, has protected minorities from discrimination, has demanded clean air, etc.

By RF

September 14, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Is it just me, or does it sound like maybe Michael hasn’t had a date in a while?? I bet a Saturday evening with him looking down upon you would just be sooooo much fun (full sarcasm intended). Don’t we all just feel so beneath that level now that he’s explained his impeccably groomed opinion of us?

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jack…thanks for summing up the reason our education system is in such s** shape. It’s attitudes like the one you stated. Is suppose all of you on here who denigrate teachers are geniuses who are completely self-educated?

By taboga

September 14, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

Bruce - you’re absolutely right. It always does.

Your average Lefty doesn’t understand that an intelligent person who gets an education - is an intelligent person with an education.

And the dumba$$ with an education - is still a dumba$$. An educated dumba$$ in fact - which is even worse!

By Jack

September 14, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

NetB. He deserved the comment. I have nothing against teachers. The good ones are underpaid. The ones that are coasting toward retirement due to tenure are the ones I have problems with. hell, give all the students passing grades. My numbers look good and I cannot be fired as long as I keep my hands off the students.

By Michael H.

September 14, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

Jack,

I never was a fan of George Bernard Shaw, the author of the quotation. But, then again, not being a teacher you wouldn’t know things like that would you? Shaw had an impoverished concept of activity or “doing” and you have an impoverished wit if you can do no better than invoke that very tired cliche as if it were a clever retort.

I prefer a quotation from John Maynard Keynes (you can look him up if he is unfamiliar.)

“The ideas of economists and philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences are usually the slaves of some defunct economist or philosopher.�

By RF

September 14, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this

Y’all ever notice how it’s always the collegiate crowd that thinks education makes one superior? I got my papers too, Michael, but when I fart-it still stinks. Perhaps a doctorate degree takes the odor away…

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

And you know that Michael is in the category you’re speaking of how?

By Jack

September 14, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

I love it when people brag about how smart they are. When I grow up, I want to be as smart as you. I’ll bet you are so good at Jeopardy. Maybe you should give Alex a call.

By Dusty

September 14, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Thanks, Jack, but I am feeling better already. Didn’t Michael H. just post that he would NEVER respond to two of us? Now, if he would make that NO reponse AT ALL, we could celebrate. As Socrates said in his Crito “Wouldn’t that be neat, oh?” (not an exact quote)

By RF

September 14, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Well, here we go again folks, slinging mud and superiority around. Seems the debate goes okay until about lunchtime. Regardless of our opinions of each other, I like the fact that we can debate issues (when we’re not insulting each other). Just remember where this all began.

By FYI

September 14, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Michael H noted that he would not be responding to Dusty or Tobago since it would be ‘beneath contempt’ or maybe he plans on that Confucius-ism: “Ignore the insignificant”.

By Guillermo

September 14, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

You people kill me. How many of you never complain about service at restaurants, grocery stores, etc.? Most Americans want everything expedient. So of course they are going to complain if it takes a few days. They are going to complain about the service and the quality of the service.

I was at the grocery store yesterday. The lines were a little longer than usual. This woman almost knocked me over getting to the next available line so she would not have to wait.

By FYI

September 14, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

In a pinch, a doctorate degree probably makes good toilet paper. Did you hear about the prisoners in Manitoba have had their tea taken away? Seems after having their tobacco taken away, they were rolling cigarettes with tea leaves, using pages of the Bible as rolling papers. And here were thought only Americans had Yankee Ingenuity.

By Dusty

September 14, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

FYI, you sound amazingly like Michael H.. Are you his ambiguous and shady alter ego?

By lozen

September 14, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Ken, I tried to send a post to you yesterday and I don’t think it got through. I wanted to thank you for debating in an intelligent and thoughtful way with no name calling or hatefulness. You could be right; people might be more responsible without government programs. Companies might be more responsible without government handouts. The ones that should go out of business would go out of business and ony the fit would survive!

And some of you people who are soooooooo against “whining liberals” just go on and on whining on this blog about liberals! I am a liberal (dictionary definition: one who is open minded and not strict in observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways). I believe in individual rights and strict separation of church and state. Nothing will change that, I’m pretty sure, although I’m always open to learning and changing. I do not agree with the conservative agenda or our conservative president. It doesn’t matter how many names your hero Rush may come up with (for many of you to mouth like a parrot) to put down liberals. The government is me/us and I want my government to help people who need help. I believe my gov’t is wasting billions of our/our children’s/our grandchildren’s dollars in a war that could have been prevented. If you don’t believe that, that’s your right! I believe Lyrazel is right that the needs of the people and all of our infrastructures are being ignored while we fight an unnecessary war. As a friend of mine said, “At some point these people of different political persausions and beliefs have to sit down and talk to resolve issues. Why can’t they do it before the war instead of after.” Yes, I will criticize my government whenever I disagree with what it/we do just as you will! Criticizing the president and his policies doesn’t mean I don’t love my country! I think conservatives confuse the government with the country. In many ways we do have a great country, but it is not perfect. Liberals and conservatives see the world in different ways; that is never going to change. You’re certainly not going to change my mind or anyone’s with name calling and insults and disrespect taking the place of intelligent debate. If you have something intelligent to say I’ll listen.

By Just Being Me

September 14, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Since I have nothing valuable to add at this time, I thought I’d throw in there that I am good at Jeopardy too! LOL!!

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

I got a new one to rile us up a bit that is on topic…this from today’s AJC.. “Vincent Creel, spokesman for the city of Biloxi, said the city had not issued evacuation orders in any language but English, but said the city was going to start issuing releases in Spanish and Vietnamese.”

Good gracious…how about the Spanish speaking and Vietnamese populations learn ENGLISH? I have little to no patience for people who choose to come here and yet refuse to learn the language. All the money spent on translations by either the government or private businesses are costs that are passed on to tax payers and consumers. I have lived in and traveled to other countries as a non-native language speaker and no accomodations were made for people like me. We struggled and used charades and pointed and whatever until we learned, but the sage wisdom of Grandma came to mind…’Ya on ya own, child! You’ll figure it out just fine.’

By Michael H.

September 14, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

Jack,

I never was a fan of George Bernard Shaw, the author of the quotation. But, then again, not being a teacher you wouldn’t know things like that would you? Shaw had an impoverished concept of activity or “doing” and you have an impoverished wit if you can do no better than invoke that very tired cliche as if it were a clever retort.

I prefer a quotation from John Maynard Keynes (you can look him up if he is unfamiliar.)

“The ideas of economists and philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences are usually the slaves of some defunct economist or philosopher.�

By W Bailey

September 14, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

By Jack

September 14, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Shouldn’t you be in the classroom teaching?

By lozen

September 14, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

Amazing. We agree about something Taboga And the dumba$$ with an education - is still a dumba$$. An educated dumba$$ in fact… I don’t know how many times I’ve thought that about those who have PhDs and are still religious conservatives (they are few, but they do exist).

By taboga

September 14, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

God Bless the Liberal cancer that destroyed slavery, provided women the right to vote, has protected minorities from discrimination, has demanded clean air, etc.

Net,

Liberalism had no more to do with any of those things than my dog’s butt has.

But enough of that silliness…

Leftists “demand clean air”? As opposed to the rest of us that have special gills to filter toxins and therefore couldn’t care less?

By Jack

September 14, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

Hey Net. How bout when they wanted to make Spanish the primary language in Miami? Can you believe that?

By Amazed

September 14, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this

Miracles do happen! The President actually took responsibility for something and the head of FEMA resigned. We are finally starting the process of recovery and the Bush “Kissers� are out in full force. Oh and another important question has been answered. We now know that the President gets his “unintelligent statements� without thinking from his mother.

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

Bridges and Moose…sorry to hear about your animals. I’m still in mourning over my Akita who was taken out by cancer last month.

By chuck

September 14, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Taboga, Your comment about education vs. intelligence was right on. Don’t worry though, Michael H. isn’t that educated. He doesn’t have a Ph.D. even though he obviously wants people to think that. You’ll notice he doesn’t come right out and say what his level of education is. He does have a Masters degree in (I think) philosophy which definitely qualifies him to work at Burger King. His big time career has been to teach part time at a couple of community colleges. His current post is teaching 2 lower level philosophy classes at Clayton State. You can check out his web site there under the name Hollifield.

BTW Lozen, if Liberals had their way the Government WOULD be the country.

By Jose Arcadio

September 14, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Well Jack, etc., since the founding fathers did not establish a national language, people are able to translate into other languages, and have the ability to decide if they want to make an area have a national language.

Since I am Puerto Rican, which makes me American like you, b**********.

By Luci-666

September 14, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Liberalism had no more to do with any of those things than my dog’s butt has. Could you please support this statement with a few facts? No? Why am I not surprised? It seems all you can do is throw out Rush-type barbs about people you don’t understand.

By Just Being Me

September 14, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Does anyone agree with either of these comments?:

Everything that is good about this country - everything - was accomplished solely by a Republican government

or

Everything that is good about this country - everything - was accomplished solely by a Democratic government

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

T..I knew you guys were different I just didn’t realize it was the gills!! Well it certainly doesn’t seem like the rightists care too terribly much given the Senate vote yesterday on EPA rules. How many environmentalists don’t seem to be ‘leftists’? I personally don’t believe that the Republican espoused market-based approach of allowing polluters to self-regulate in order to reduce mercury emissions will work.

By Dusty

September 14, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Amazed, from whom do you get your “unintelligent statements”?

By Owl

September 14, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

I think we can all blame the failures of all those great businesses for the rise of those oh so terrible things, like labor unions, Social Security, Water and Clean Air Acts.

Way to go, conservatives.

If business had been more responsible, they never would have happened.

By Bruce

September 14, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I wonder how many environmentalists do not drive cars because they are environmentalists? If they do not have cars what mode of transportation do they use? How many of them do not use toliet paper, or buy food at the store, or live in houses? If they are so concerned about the environment why do they support (by using) products that they say are destorying the environment when they are produced? Sounds kinda hypocritical to me.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Jose Arcadio. I would like to know what you called me but too much of it was edited out by big brother. Never been to Puerto Rico. I hear it is nice. I have nothing against the Spanish or any other nationality. My point is, if you are in this country, learn our language. If you are too lazy or stupid to learn our language, do us a favor and leave.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

Labor unions are one reason for all of the out-sourcing done today.

By Tristan

September 14, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

While we are rolling back the laws, let’s get rid of the Food and Drug Administrations requirements. If a few more insects, insect parts, rat parts and rat pills, and fingers get in the food, people will be okay. The Liberals whine too much anyway. I’m sure that it was a conservative that wanted to implement the changes to food.

I guarantee that the price of food will go down.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

Go out and find an idiot on the street. Have that idiot write down his views on society. Then have him teach those views.

You go to his class and learn that which he is teaching. Now, what does that make you?

Well, it depends, doesn’t it? I mean, if you’re smart, you’ll see it for what it is: Idiocy. If you’re in the same boat as he is - you’ll believe the idiocy and run around telling everyone how smart and educated you are!

By Jack

September 14, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Tristan. Good idea. We can all use the extra protein. :)

By chuck

September 14, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Tristan, The Federal government should get out of the FDA business. That is part of the problem. The feds used the “Interstate Commerce Clause” to get involved in EVERY ASPECT of our lives. The only role the feds should have in agriculture is that involving imported foods. That really is a constitutional function of the federal gov’t.

By Owl

September 14, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Jack - thanks, since without the conservatives, we never would have ended up with labor unions.

Good one, thanks.

By Owl

September 14, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

I do not know any states that grow all of their food in-state. Interstate commerce is involved with nearly all food production and distrubution. Incredible.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

The Liberals whine too much anyway. I’m sure that it was a conservative that wanted to implement the changes to food.

Nah, Conservatives just plant it, grow it, cultivate and harvest it. Along with raising it, feeding it, butchering it, producing it and transporting it to a location so that Liberals can whine about what’s in it and how others should grow and raise it and how much others should be able to charge the whiners for it.

That’s about it.

By chuck

September 14, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

That is true Owl. That isn’t the point. Regulating COMMERCE is not the same thing as regulating PRODUCTION which does take place in ONLY ONE STATE. We pay twice for agricultural inspections. Every state has agricultural inspection agents who provide the same function as the FDA guys. Everything gets inpected twice. The purpose of the ICC was not to get involved in the production end, but to give the feds the power to solve disputes BETWEEN states over trade. No state would have to allow produce or other food products from other states into their own state. They could require the other states to provide inspection records if they wanted to. Why do the feds have to be involved?

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Bruce…you seem to be defining a naturist over an environmentalist. Environmentalists are concerned with being good stewards of the environment…just like God directed in The Bible. Being a good steward doesn’t mean not living in houses or buying food in a store or even driving a car. It’s about considering and attempting to reduce one’s negative impact on the environment and recognizing that eco-systems are connected. For example, it is environmentalists who have been pushing rules for ships to empty and refill their ballast tanks out at sea before coming into port to reduce the numbers of non-native species being introduced to an area. While this seems very small, the zebra mussel that is taking over in the Great Lakes (and if you recall royally screwed up the sewer systems of Chicago) was introduced by ballast water. Environmentalists are the ones fighting for reductions in commercial use of fertilizers that are flowing into our waterways. In my home state of Maryland all that crap has severely impacted the crab and oyster populations and reduced the health of the bay. Environmentalists are the ones championing the plans to restore the flow of the Mississippi so that we aren’t losing 33 football fields worth of marsh land a day along the gulf coast…you know those areas that absorb storm surges to reduce flooding, provide safe havens for fish to spawn, etc.

By Owl

September 14, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

First I have heard of The International Brotherhood of Software Developers but what do I know.

for you non-ITers, IT has historical and continues to be, NON-unionized, unless you consider the CWA IT. Telephone lines and switches are not considered IT.

By Dusty

September 14, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Jack, would you like the rest of my chocolate creme pie?

Well, my boredom alarm just buzzed. I’m off (again) to shoot cans and other important missions of the day.

But….as Scarlett said, “After all, tomorrow is another day.”

By Jack

September 14, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

Dusty. I could sure use it. Thanks. :)

By Rod d'Bree

September 14, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Seems like it is more a problem of Federal resources being committed to nonsense here….

“The Associated Press says hundreds of firefighters from across the country who volunteered to help out in New Orleans were delayed in Atlanta for days of sensitivity indoctrination by federal authorities.

The firefighters were told by FEMA that it would take two days to train them before they could carry out their community service and outreach duties. Part of that training included classes on sexual harassment and lessons on how to deal with ethnic groups”

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Netbanker - thank you for the condolances.

By RF

September 14, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Seems to me that we complain about government being too big and interfering in our lives. Why then, are we blaming the feds for NOT showing up sooner after Katrina? Oh yeah, I get it, we want to reduce it and not have it interfere until we need help, and then the troops need to come swooping in like hungry locusts to bring us what we need. All we ever do is decrease an agency over here and create two new ones over there.

By RF

September 14, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Jack—you grab the pie and I’ll pick up a bottle of JD. It’s 5:00 somewhere!

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Lozen - “those who have PhDs and are still religious conservatives (they are few, but they do exist).”

What do the two have to do with each other? Now where I too tend to roll my eyes when people bring their education into an argument saying “I have this degree, I KNOW what I’m talking about” but a large amount of my extended family have PhD’s and are religious conservatives. I don’t have mine and I doubt I’ll get it just because my field has little use for it. I just fail to see where the connection is between earning a PhD and being a religious conservative.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

Those on the left should remember who has been in control of the federal government the majority of the time. Hint: It wasn’t the republicans.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

RF,

Didn’t you know that FEMA stands for: Federal Emergency Magic Agency…?

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

It just occurred to me that T is like my partner who said to me last night that “Every time he brings up something he thinks we need to do to improve our lives financially or other wise I FIGHT him when I mention another approach to reach the same goal or way to think about the issue.” I was surprised that he thought that way. My professional life is one in which I need to evaluate multiple methods or approaches with all their pros and cons before making a recommendation. When I explained that just because I propose something else doesn’t mean I’m saying one is better than the other and that all I want to do is to make sure we’re exploring and deciding what will be the best thing for us his response was “Oh, well I just assumed that since we’re both stubborn and you didn’t immediately agree that you were challenging my decision.”

By chuck

September 14, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

If you’ve read my posts RF you’ll see that I think it is ludicrous to even say that the government response was too slow. I don’t think it was.

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

RF - nice..seriously, I completely agree with that. government - stay out of our business until we need you. but you have to be able to read our minds and KNOW when we want you to interfere.

By Scott

September 14, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Sorry I am late people…hope everyone is having a good day…

Tony - I remember where the quote came from, or rather where Lincoln got it…but thanks for pointing it out!

TABOGA - I mean, if you wanted to fix the leaking roof and I didn’t, what do we do - put a bucket under the leak to catch the water? “Working together� we came up with a ridiculous solution, but we can pat ourselves on the back for: “Working together�.

Are you serious or is this another tounge in cheek response? If the roof was leaking, so to speak, I would think we would both want to fix it. I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with either extreme view (conservative or liberal) that is less interested in fixing the roof than they are in who we buy the nails from or how the hammer feels about it.

By RF

September 14, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

I know Chuck-my comment was more a summary response to what I read over the last couple of hours. That was more a throw back to allllll the comments about slow response time earlier. Nothing personal dude!

By dee

September 14, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

From Renee :Dee, I hear you, but how many are giving back. There is a large percent who not only don’t give back but continue to stay on it if not forced to get off of it.

Renee coud you quote me that percent or show me where to find it? Because all I have to do is look at my church and the people in there who have suffered hard times and have given back. I would really like to know where you’re getting your information.

By Amazed

September 14, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

Dusty - I’m sure your mama knows where they come from. If she doen’t know, then rest assured I have not made one.

Just kidding, I’m sure your mother loves you as no one else would. Just as “W” mother loves him.

By dee

September 14, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

From BuildingBridges: that is the image painted when thinking about welfare because that is what is put out there. it’s not true but unfortunately it’s what the majority of people think about. Have you ever laughed at a joke that for all intent purposes was meant to be prejudice? It might have meant to be a joke but the stereotype is still there and it’s the picture that is painted about everyone from there regardless of how educated they are. (I know…completely different level, but similar affects)

To BB: I don’t think it’s a similar example or effect. When I laugh at a “dumb” joke — I know it’s a JOKE. When I repeat it I’ll say “Hey I heard this really good ‘dumb’ joke!” — I don’t use that joke as a fact. That would make ME the “DUMB” joke. Sure sterotyping is out there, it’s when we try to use an erroneous sterotype as a FACT that it creates a problem and perpertrates an unfair myth. ALL blonde women are not dumb, ALL black men are not atheletic, ALL men are not dogs, ALL black women are not sexpots, ALL white people are not evil — now THAT’s a fact —— why won’t anyone use those facts in their posts?

By Owl

September 14, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Just as “W� mother loves him.

Should we paraphrase Barbara’s recent comments as “You know, he was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth, never could grasp the business concept, so this suits him rather well”

By joe

September 14, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

“We human beings have the seed of human compassion,” said the Dalai Lama. I’m positive he doesn’t know Taboga.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

If the roof was leaking, so to speak, I would think we would both want to fix it.

Now, substitute the “leaking roof” with Social Security.

And I, like you, would think that both parties would want to “fix it”.

But of course, that isn’t the case. The Democrats want to put a bucket under it…

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

Dee- no you might not take those jokes as facts but do you know how many times I hear “well you ARE from alabama” as an excuse for something that I’ve done or said. Or people saying “that’s the south for you”. Even though the statements come from jokes, they are used for stereotypes. Like it or not, not everyone takes them as jokes. Passing those jokes are like spreading rumors about a part of the country because someone will pass it on as fact. How hypocritical.

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Oh and for another example. Blond jokes. they are jokes but it’s stereotyping and people NOW use it as an excuse!! If ya’ll read this blog you probably read the vents. recent vent “probably the blond driving and suv and talking on the cell phone” So what does blond have to do with that? you know as well as I do what that person was referring to. Jokes are just as harmful as passing them for fact.

By Renee

September 14, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

The percentage comes from the significant amount of people I have personally known that have or currently receive federal and/or state assistance. Not one of them has done a thing to give back by being a mentor or any of the other things you mentioned. They actually did not want to work and are mad that under Georgia law they have to find gainful employment while receiving assistance. I’m sure there are some that get off assistance, find employment and make a better life for themselves, but there are others that feel like the government owes them something. They get mad when they are forced off of it, they have a fit when there check is a day late, when they ask them to send in information to verify that they qualify etc…… That’s where I get my information.

By lozen

September 14, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Why go to the trouble of trying to find an idiot on the street Taboga when I have you on this blog?

By taboga

September 14, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

“We human beings have the seed of human compassion,� said the Dalai Lama. I’m positive he doesn’t know Taboga

And Taboga never cared to know him.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

So then, you should learn from what I am teaching you!

By chuck

September 14, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

RF I don’t take anything personally on these boards. We’re cool.

By Scott

September 14, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Taboga - youre correct about Social Security reform…NEITHER party has a corner on how to fix it, just want their way

By dee

September 14, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

From Renee: The percentage comes from the significant amount of people I have personally known that have or currently receive federal and/or state assistance.

So exactly that’s how many people? 20, 25, 50, 75, 100? That still does not equate to the comment that you made earlier of “There is a large percent who not only don’t give back but continue to stay on it if not forced to get off of it”. When you made that statement it sounded to me like you were talking about ALL the people who are receivig assistance at this time and not the people that you know PERSONALLY that haven’t given back. I thought you had based your comment on facts about the current climate of people on assistance. I misread your post — I’m sorry.

By lozen

September 14, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

And I, like you, would think that both parties would want to “fix it�. But of course, that isn’t the case. The Democrats want to put a bucket under it…

And Bush and the Repubs want to turn it over to their “trustworthy” friends who probably know the Bush boy from the Savings & Loan debacle!

By RF

September 14, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Dee if we all really practiced political correctness and sensitivity, we wouldn’t be allowed to tell any joke because it might offend. Seems there are always exceptions to any rule we give, even if many don’t see the exceptions. Like Renee, though, I have known quite a few people who have used government assistance as a way of life and who never wanted to get off of it. Why go fishing if someone is frying them up already and offering them to you? I’ve said before that the only way to “reform” welfare is to make it harder to get on and come with a time limit to get off it, unless you are permanently unable to work. That’s fair I think.

By Michael H.

September 14, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Lozen Thank you for the kind comments. I read Nickel and Dimed, and found it a good book, except for Ehrenreich’s tendency to focus so much on herself. She went “undercover� again in her most recent book which is titled Bait and Switch: the (Futile) Search for the American dream. I have only read reviews of it which were largely unfavorable, even from sympathetic writers such as Alan Wolfe.

Scott, I certainly understand your concerns about divisiveness and I place most of the blame on the rightward and intolerant trend that has taken place in the United States and in not other Western country. I would also argue that I mark the relevant distinction between evangelicals and conservatives (and evangelicals and the religious right.) However, almost all American evangelicals (in contrast with those in Latin and South America) are conservative and Republican now, though not all conservatives are religious or of the evangelical or religious right variant. But they are an extremely important constituency with the Republican party. Ralph Reed, director of Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition for six or seven years was the director of the Bush campaign for the southeast and Bush needed those votes to secure both an electoral victory and the numerical victory he did not achieve in 2004. There is a clear religious-political-ethical agenda that both evangelicals and the religious right hope to instantiate not only into political discourse but intend to codify into American law. I don’t even think that they would disagree with that claim.

And I do indeed think that the piety that has been introduced into American politics is stifling. No other Western country has the attitude towards stem cell research of the Bush administration or takes “intelligent design� as a serious alternative to evolutionary theory. It is as if the U.S. is the only country in the West that has not taken the Enlightenment seriously.

RF, The value of graduate school is that it takes ignorance away. Perhaps you should try it. If you could get in.

By dee

September 14, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

From BuildingBridges: Like it or not, not everyone takes them as jokes. Passing those jokes are like spreading rumors about a part of the country because someone will pass it on as fact. How hypocritical.

I am very conscious of the things that come out of my mouth and the things that are written from my pen. Bad things DO come back to haunt you. I’m sorry if you think i’m being hypocritical — I ALWAYS tell people when I’m telling a joke; if they choose to believe the joke is a FACT, well, I am not responsible for other people’s stupidity. But I do not perpetrate the total denigration of a race of people, a group of people, for sport and fun. Certain things in life you just DONT do and think they’re never gonna come back and bite you in the butt. Ask Bill Clinton, GWB, Richard Nixon, Ted Kennedy, etc., etc., etc. Think before you speak.

By Tom

September 14, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Have you ever been to the DMV? Enough said.

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Taboga is teaching us lessons. I’m just not sure they are the ones he intends.

Joe…seeds need to be planted and watered and nourished to grow…otherwise they’re just a seed.

and to all those destroying the myth of stupid blondes…Please stop right now! As a blond person I’ve used that sterotype to my advantage as some folks will always underestimate a blonde. Or in the words of our honorary blonde president…they’ll misunderestimate us.

By RF

September 14, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

As I said Michael, I have the paper, apparently equal with yours if earlier posts about you are correct. I choose not to see myself as superior or better educated. I’m just a person with an opinion who doesn’t see the point in being supercilious. I live in the real world and know I’m not perfect. Your tone tends to indicate you believe you have acheived a level of knowledge the rest of us just can’t possible reach. I can’t believe you would be so pompous. Enjoy—your life is evidently a party for one.

By Owl

September 14, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

I was reading trade mags several years ago and was really impressed with the ENRON business concept. Even considered buying some stock for long term holding. You think maybe I am glad I did not?

Actually, if Newt’s Republican-controlled House in the 1990s had not relaxed government review of corporations, that may not have ever happened, their failure. So as a result of Enron, WorldCom, etc, we now have to deal with Sarbanes-Oxley. Way to go, corporate America, way to go.

By lozen

September 14, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Owl is right. If so many young women hadn’t burned to death locked up in a sweat shop, there would be no government agency looking out for the safety of U.S. workers. If mills hadn’t been employing 8 year olds 12 hours a day until they dropped, there would be no child labor laws. If companies had paid their workers a decent wage and provided safer working conditions in the mines, there would be no labor unions. If companies didn’t put profit above the health and welfare of their workers… well, that wouldn’t be capitalism would it? That would be dang socialism!
Somebody on here yesterday said, essentially, if he could hire someone for $2.00 instead of minimum wage, he would and should be able to. Do you know anywhere a person could survive on $320 a month? You can’t even rent an apt. for $320 a month. Of course you could live in low income housing and get food stamps and be considered scum and no-good. And then the same person who paid you $2 an hour would yell and scream about you living off his tax dollars!

By chuck

September 14, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Hey RF, You should go back and read some of his posts from last spring. To listen to him talk he is the reincarnation of Ghandi, Albert Einstein and his all time favorite philosopher David Hume. He can convince his little Freshman/Sophomore beginning philosophy students that he has all knowledge so he thinks he can pull off the same type of crap out here in the real world. He has a real hard time when his pseudo-intellectual diatribes are picked apart by us “common folk”. Every time someone points out a legitimate fallacy in his arguments he jumps out there with his “I’m educated and you are not” garbage. The boy’s about as intellectual as the bottom of my shoe and a whole lot less useful.

By dee

September 14, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Sounds fair to me to — but why denigrate the people who DO need assistance by saying that they ALL are “lazy”?

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

dee - I agree completely. I was just trying to make a point. YOU might make a point of saying your telling a joke or what not but it’s still putting others in a spot of ridicule just because of the location they were born and raised (if talking about the alabama jokes). Just like RF said: “Dee if we all really practiced political correctness and sensitivity, we wouldn’t be allowed to tell any joke because it might offend.” I agree with that. I was just trying to make a point. Those jokes are funny to a certain extent but I seriously get tired of being the butt of them only because I didn’t have the vote in where I was born and raised. Just like no one is perfect, I’m sure you’ve made your share of generalizations. I too hate them and I try my hardest to stress that I am talking about ‘SOME’ when discussing a group. But just like everyone else, I slip up. Most people are aware that not everyone in certain groups are 100% alike.

By Netbanker

September 14, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Owl…that’s a good point. People will push the limits wherever possible or where they won’t get caught. We hear less government oversight of business from the very people who end up screwing hundreds of employees while having a soft landing due to their own golden parachutes.

By CB

September 14, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

Do you teach at WR Coile Middle School in Athens?

By dee

September 14, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

From RF: Dee if we all really practiced political correctness and sensitivity, we wouldn’t be allowed to tell any joke because it might offend.

That’s not what I was trying to say. Basically if it’s gonna be used as a joke then that’s what it is. Don’t repeat a joke and say it’s a fact.

Seems there are always exceptions to any rule we give, even if many don’t see the exceptions. Like Renee, though, I have known quite a few people who have used government assistance as a way of life and who never wanted to get off of it.

But to make a statement that a “vast percentage� of people do that is not a correct statement unless you can prove it with facts; if not what is being said is no better than innuedoes and rumors.

I’ve said before that the only way to “reform� welfare is to make it harder to get on and come with a time limit to get off it, unless you are permanently unable to work. That’s fair I think.

Sounds fair to me to � but why denigrate the people who DO need assistance by saying that they ALL are “lazy�?

By Just Being Me

September 14, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

RF/DEE: I think the key is knowing your audience. In my opinion, it’s a worse offense to tell a stereotypical joke publicly than it is to tell one to your spouse. I realize that sounds hypocritical, and I’m cool with that.

There are many comments that I make to my partner while watching the news that I would NEVER say in front of my colleagues.

Onto the public assistance discussion - I too, have known wayyyyy too many people who have been on public assistance and have absolutely no desire or plan to get off of it. Fortunately, I still have a bit of sensitivity about it and try not to be judgmental. Like I said earlier, not everyone has the same level of resilience and overcoming strength. I’m certainly not making excuses - but, I take my cousin for example. At 33 years old, she has never, EVER held down a job for more than a couple of months. And, in total, she’s probably only had 6 or 7 jobs - which equates to about 12 months of work in 15 years of adulthood. Deplorable? Reprehensible? Disgusting? Absolutely. Especially since I raise her children with no assistance, while she continued to collect assistance (housing voucher, food stamps, medical and dental, and a check)… But, one day my mom raised a good point when she asked me, “Well, what do you expect? She never saw her mother work, and they survived. To her, working isn’t necessary to achieve the things you want in live. She has low standards because she was raised with low standards.”

OF COURSE I’m not saying that everyone who is raised on welfare will continue on welfare themselves. That’s ridiculous. What I am saying is that there are some people who really don’t know any better, and don’t desire better. Who don’t know that they can have better - and have no idea where to begin to get better… And, in the words of my cousin when I told her she needed to get a job, “why?”

By Owl

September 14, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Lozen - I actually read that book, about the fire in NYC when all the mostly Jewish seamstresses died. Triangle: The Fire That Changed America in 1911.

By dee

September 14, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Building Bridges - YOU used the example of jokes this is your original comment below: dee - thats why I asked because I wasn’t clear on that. that is the image painted when thinking about welfare because that is what is put out there. it’s not true but unfortunately it’s what the majority of people think about. Have you ever laughed at a joke that for all intent purposes was meant to be prejudice? A joke about the residents of alabama for example. It might have meant to be a joke but the stereotype is still there

My point was just because it’s a joke does not make it a fact no matter HOW many times we say it. Sterotypes aren’t the TRUTH. When you repeat a sterotype as a TRUTH then the joke is on you.

By taboga

September 14, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

And Bush and the Repubs want to turn it over to their “trustworthy� friends who probably know the Bush boy from the Savings & Loan debacle!

Lozen,

Please let us know who their “friends” are and what they plan to do with it. Thanks.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Hey NetB, that last post of your’s reminds me of the movie “Wall Street”. It was on last night. Good flick.

By Scott

September 14, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Michael H - I obviously agree that there is divisiveness in this country, as you can see from my previous posts. I cannot, however, lay the blame solely on the doorstep of the Republican party for that division. I am not in favor of either party, as I do not believe that Democrats or Republlicans truly have the best interests of the American public in mind. While I am interested in what the rest of Western civilization thinks from an intellectual point of view, thats where it stops. Certainly other nations in the Western world lie awake at night wondering about our opinion of what is going on in their respective nations, unless they intend to ask us for money. Democrats have fought against what they believe to be intolerance even to the expense of personal responsibility. I strongly believe in helping those who are down to stand back on their feet. Unfortunately, that often gets twisted from that intent into one that encourages people to rely on their government to do it for them, rather than helping them up so they can take care of themselves. I think that when we rely too heavily on the government for our day to day well being, we put ourselves ina position of subservience that no exercise of the 2nd amendment will ever resolve. Democrats have alienated the religious factions of this country by telling them that their beliefs have no right to be expressed and they are irrelevant. The Republicans, seeing the blood in the water, have capitalized on that tactic, taking advantage of an oversight by the democrats. Western Europe has no such problems becasue it is largely secular, where the United States is not. Republicans miss the boat somewhat on what Christianity, or rather Christ’s teachings profess, but rahter picking the big religious fights such as abortion and the like. Democrats, rather than taking hold of the parallels between Christ teachings related to some of their historical points (e.g. equality, helping the poor, sick and downtrodden, etc) have avoided it altogether, alienating that section of the country and leaving the Republics to collect the spoils, in a manner of speaking, when they (repubs) rail against abortion, and other issues that go against those teachings.

Democrats take the stance often that “you have no right to tell me what to believe” (which is true) while Republicans fight back with “and you can’t tell me what not to believe” which is also, equally true

By Alabama

September 14, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

In Alabama, we tell Georgia jokes. And we all laugh at them.

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

My goodness Dee. LOL I was agreeing with you when I said that that’s how the picture is painted for people. The same way southerners, alabamians, blonds are painted the way they are in jokes; the description you gave of what people think of with those on welfare are what has been painted for them. not truth, but what is believed to be true. Jeez.. can we end this? we are going in circles and I kinda have a feeling we are saying the same things just in different ways and frankly, it’s getting old trying to “defend” something when I’m actually AGREEING with you. Not everyone is out there to argue hon..

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

We told university of alabama jokes and laughed often. :)

By taboga

September 14, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

8It just occurred to me that T is like my partner who said to me last night that “Every time he brings up something he thinks…*

Net,

Your comparing apples and oranges. I was talking about goals and intents, whereas you speak of methods.

Differing methods are fine, as long as the same goal is in mind (as between you and your associate.)But Republicans and Democrats do not have the same goals in mind, so the “methods” for either one do not enter into the equation.

By dee

September 14, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

BuildingBridges:

Point taken. Let’s start talking about the best way to save the whales from the liberal media and the Christian right wing. (JOKE!!!)

By taboga

September 14, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

BuildingBridges,

Does sh!t stink? If your answer is yes, aren’t you being “stereotypical”?

Unless you’ve smelled everyone’s, that is…

By RF

September 14, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Dee I’m sorry if I didn’t seem to be agreeing with you about the jokes—that’s what I meant to do anyway.

I’m not judging those who really need assistance. I try to be sensitive to their plight, and there are plenty of them out there. It is just my OPINION based on anecdotal evidence, and not meant to be offensive. I think those in need deserve help, but I absolutely believe we have to find a way to get those who are abusing the system and stop them. Not trying to argue—just presenting an opinion.

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

lol dee. Where I see your point..I do believe that manatees are in more danger and have just as much right to our attentions. totally just kidding!! :)

By RF

September 14, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

Complete change of subject, but has anyone noticed the front page? The pledge of allegiance is back in the courts. Guess we’ll be blogging that one next week. That ought to be interesting!

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

taboga - WTF? who said anything about sh-t stinking?

btw, that wouldn’t be stereotyping, that would be scientific fact that human secretion doesn’t smell like flowers.

By Jack

September 14, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

What’s the best thing to ever come out of Alabama?

I-20

By taboga

September 14, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Well, the flag is a cherished American emblem and value. And as such, it is on the Leftist/Communist hit list.

By RF

September 14, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

forget the manatees and whales—you may have to save me from my dog. I forgot to feed her this morning and boy will she be mad when I get home!!—LOL Ciao until tomorrow—if I have an arm left to type with!

By taboga

September 14, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

I didn’t ask if it smelled like “flowers” - I asked if it “stinks”.

Sterotyping is inherent to human beings. And that is the reason that Leftists have labled it as taboo. Stereotyping is nothing more than human reasoning. A quality sorely lacking on the Left.

By buildingbridges

September 14, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Jack. lol aawwww…and I always thought I was the best thing that came out of alabama! ;-) JK!

By RF

September 14, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Jack my mom would agree with you!! She says the only problem is they had to pave it going back in too so she can’t avoid going home every now and then! Of course if it was dirt, all the folks over there would actually know how to drive on it.

By Lou B

September 14, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

(What was the topic again?)

On the Public Assistance thing: wasn’t there a 60-minutes type show in the early 90’s that exposed people in Chicago “teaching” project children how to act retarded, hyperactive, crippled, etc, so that the parents would get extra money? I seem to remember seeing that.

I have known someone personally who bragged about helping people stay on welfare because the government “owed it to blacks”. These are the people who, as shown once in NYC, where the lady in one project house lived next to her daughter in the NEXT apartment, who lived next to HER daughter in the next one. The third generation welfare recipient had, at 19 years old, four children.

Points well taken by all. Welfare should be, (who said this?) WORK-FARE. In other words, in exchange for your check/assistance, you report to some federal/state/county office to do filing, maintenance, receptionist, even janitorial. Eliminate a federal employee, (and thusly a federal salary, with benefits, ) but still get the work done. If the Work-fare recipient doesn’t work, they don’t get paid, just like a real job.

The gov’t at all levels has become a jobs program that pays way too much. Look right here in the ATL at the massive jobs giveaway that the airport became under Jackson, continuing on through Campbell. Franklin doesn’t have the desire or the guts to stop it, either.

This attitude of entitlement by ALL groups, especially illegals, creates even more problems in the long run, namely, the sense that the government is supposed to come along and do it for you, whether it is storm evacuations, rescues, etc.

By Tony

September 15, 2005 07:56 AM | Link to this

Here’s some facts that will be ignored by most and appreciated by some…

In 1996 the Clinton budget allotted $191 billion for poverty entitlements.

Bush 2006 budget allots a record-shattering $368 billion for poverty entitlements.

Hardworking Americans are providing the poor with Medicaid, food stamps, welfare payments, day care payments, foster care, and health insurance for children.

We are a generous nation, and that is the truth.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this

Good Morning Comrades,

Well, I see that some of the low-lifes that were shipped from New Orleans to Houston - are now fighting with other low-lifes there.

It seems that some of Houston’s low-lifes are jealous of all the attention, aid and money that the New Orleans low-lifes are getting. And so the Houston low-lifes are now demanding that which they are “owed”.

All you do-gooders out here need to reach back into your pockets again and help those in Houston who have been hurt by all of this. Remember, they are your fellow citizens and human beings and need you concern and compassion.

By Bruce

September 15, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

And we can only thank those liberials that started all this years ago. Our country used to be called the “Land of Opportunity” but now it is the “Land of the Handout”. And its not just the poor wanting the handout.

Remember a few weeks ago when the liberials on this blog wanted the rich to give them what they had worked for through higher taxes just because they had it?

By Renee

September 15, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

Taboga, I think you just want to reel us in.

By RF

September 15, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

Well, we knew it would happen. I thought it would take a little longer, but here it is anyway. I think it is important to help those right now without homes, jobs, food, etc. and tell those complaining to either apply for aid they “think they deserve” or get on with life. As we’ve discusses already, there are plenty of poor folk in this country who probably deserve some help. Unfortunately there will always be those who make a spectacle of themselves and cry for help because they don’t know any better or care. We have to wade through those to get to the ones who really deserve help. Tedious process, but we have to start separating the wheat from the chaff here. Let them complain, evaulate their needs, and tell them no if we have to. Those who don’t have a true need will cry, but they’ll work when they’re hungry enough.

By Guillermo

September 15, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this

Bruce, are you kidding me? The rich work hard. The only hard work that rich people do is getting suckers like you to carry the bulk of the taxes, the belief that the poor are robbing you, and making sure that you don’t see any need to change the current system in the United States.

By FatMoose

September 15, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this

By the definitions provided by our guest poster(tab); If I stated all white people are white, it would be stereotyping - kinda remeinds me of 1984 and the Office of Truth.

Funny what happens when a being has enough of a gangley nerve to cause thoughts, but not enough nerve mass to process those thoughts!

By Lou B

September 15, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this

RE: My own comments of 17:04, previous day.

I’ve now heard about up to 6 months of “housing allowance” for an average of $600 per month. I’m sure there will also be higher and extended unemployment, etc.

In exchange, people should be required, (especially if otherwise unemployed) to assist in any clean-up and recovery efforts. They could even count Red Cross volunteer time. No sense paying one person to sit on his behind simply because his place of employment was razed, AND pay another person to clean up that same building.

And since these people are on the public dole, then there should be no position beneath anyone. It doesn’t take much qualifications or training to work a broom/rake/shovel & wheelbarrow. Plenty of those people should be qualified to drive dump trucks and loaders, and there should be just GOBS of folks qualified to drive nails & carry lumber.

Am I insensitive? Maybe, but I also feel like that since our forcibly-taken tax dollars fund these things, they should be required to use that most in the absolutely most efficient manner possible.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

Moose,

I was unable to decipher the code. Could you transmit that again in plain text?

By taboga

September 15, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

Guillermo,

What IS the “current system” in the United States?

By CD

September 15, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

The Federal Government spending a ton of money in taxes and putting this country in debt. What do we get for this money? A war that’s a complete failure and a FEMA department that’s really nonexistent with a nice political head man that deflects blame to the local government. If we’re not getting anything out of the federal government, why does the government have to spend any money at all? It’s like our taxmoney is going straight into Haliburton’s pocket. I thought some people didn’t like the redistribution of wealth. The Iraq war is just sucking up money. And the Iraquis aren’t any safer or better off. They’re getting blown up right and left and don’t even have electricity. If the people pay so much money to the government, and they hate the Iraq war but want a FEMA effort, then why the f@#* can’t we spend money on a real FEMA department and tell Haliburton to go screw itself?

By Jack

September 15, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this

Guillermo. So you think the rich had their money given to them? They did not earn it?

By Renee

September 15, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Lou I dont agree with that. While there are people who can help with clean up and recovery I don’t think it should be made as a mandate for receiving assistance. However I do think jobs could and should be extended whenever possible. As far as volunteer work, if anyone feels in their heart they should do that, they should, but should not be required to do so. If I was in that situation and had been displaced from my home and job, didn’t know where my next meal was coming from, the last think I need is a volunteer position. These people are looking for handouts, and for the time being they are needed. If you lost everything, have waded through that sewer water for days, could barely stand, I’m sure you would want medical care and food.

Some of the people working on relief efforts now are doing so to help “hoping” to get paid. I know of one large electric company now trying to work on getting electricity restored that does not even know how or if they will even get paid

By Bruce

September 15, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

Gillermo,

Just because someone has money is no reason to take it from them and give it to you. They may not have not worked HARD for what they have but they did earn it….. No one just handed it to them.

LouB I am with you on that one.

By Bruce

September 15, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

Renee,

The Red Cross is making sure these people are fed and healthy. If my place of employemnt had been destoryed I woudl be more than willing to help get it back up and running. The faster the building is fixed the faster I can return to a somewhat normal life.

By FatMoose

September 15, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Tab,

It would just be easier for you to tell me what you do understand; seeing as that would be a very short list, and I will try to help you along from there. ?comprehend?

By Renee

September 15, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

I would too, if my place of employment was going to either pay me, or make sure I had room, board, clothing and food until finished. Many companies may not rebuild and others are revamping their processes. If I was in that situation I would regroup, and probably look for new work. Some people don’t even want to return to New Orleans, I mean there are a lot of factors involved.

By Lou B

September 15, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

Renee, so because you had a hard time, there should be free money? I’m sorry you had it bad, and no one expects them to jump up at 08:00 the next morning the clouds cleared. Yes, they should get/have gotten medical care and food. So put on the bandages, eat your breakfast, and grab a shovel. Lunch is at 12:00, Dinner 18:00. Tomorrow, we do it again. Don’t want the taxpayer’s dollars? Fine, you go somewhere else to live, and get you a job. File your claims with the insurance company, and leave the rest of us to this task. Otherwise, sign up for a LOAN of the taxpayer’s money, so you can pay it back, with interest.

See, it’s this kind of attitude that leads to this feeling of money for nothing. Why do you feel like you have any stinking right to part of my earnings for free? Why did I work for over a third of this last week if you aren’t willing to work for it, also?

By Michael H.

September 15, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Scott,

Fair enough, we agree on some things and disagree on others. You certainly seem like a decent guy. I didn’t quite get your comment about other countries lying awake at night, but I certainly disagree with your claim that is democrats who have “alienated religious factions in this country by telling them that their beliefs have no right to be expressed and they are irrelevant.� That is an overstatement. We have never had an anti-cleric movement in the United States in the democratic party or outside of it and the efforts to maintain state neutrality or separation of state are not equivalent to denying any kind of religious expression. In fact, I would argue that the United States provides more freedom for religious expression than any other country and yet is more intolerant of non-believers than any Western country. But that is too large a subject to enter into. I was glad to note that you give other people credit for having decent motives and that you try to understand them, though we disagree on the consequences of the actions stemming from those motives. I wish more people here would do the same instead of trying to assimilate every view of every person on the left to “communism� as a prelude to an attempt to assassinate their character.

Chuck,

Nice try but no cigar. Wrong institution, wrong degrees, and wrong courses as well, since I am teaching mostly upper division classes. I always write under pseudonyms, using common names like Michael H. and David H., wherever I post to prevent people like you from attempting to harass me.

And if anyone wants, they can read the earlier posts you referred to. I invite them to do so and judge for themselves their content and argument, and see if you “picked apart� anything. The main problem was that you couldn’t follow any arguments or give any, especially those laughable attempts to attack evolutionary theory which several people had a field day with. It was very entertaining. And I certainly remember demolishing a few of your ill informed attempts at argument and sending them to friends of mine in Europe for a good laugh, though they found the ignorance more horrifying than humorous. I grew bored kicking so many conservatives like bozo or Boscoe and you all over the map over countless issues and left. As Norman Mailer said in describing George Bush, you have no more substance than spit on a rock.

RF, a “paper� or a diploma is not straightforwardly interchangeable with the concept of education. The mere fact that two people possess BAs, MAs or PhDs, even if they are in the same field, or from the same institution hardly means that they are equally educated. (And if the mere possession of degrees meant educational equality you would have to collect another one of those diplomas to be my equal.) Surely that is so obvious that it doesn’t need to be pointed out. Well, I guess not. What matters, as I stated countless times in the past, is argument and I have seen nothing of that from the likes of you, Dusty, Tobago, or Chuck, and most of the other conservatives who post here.

It is also humorous how showing a bit of knowledge, offering a quotation or two, or mentioning an intellectual figure invariably seems to elicit hostility from uneducated conservatives (in contrast to educated ones who are fond of the practice, if you bother to read conservative writers as I do.) It seems that it taps into a deep sense of insecurity, so out come the attacks on teachers, the stock Shaw cliché, appeals to the “common man,� and so forth.

In any event, if you reactionaries (and racists in the case of Tobago) don’t like what I say, then don’t read and respond to it. I certainly don’t intend to read or respond to you, for you have nothing to say, can’t construct an argument, and wouldn’t recognize one if you picked up a logic textbook. Go back to Fox and the talk shows for your “arguments� and “ideas� and bounce them around amongst yourselves in your conservative echo chamber, or in your hollow heads while you drive your pickup trucks with their Bush 04 stickers down the road working up a rage while listening to Rush.

By RF

September 15, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

If given the chance, Renee, many of these folks displaced recently will work. There are obviously going to be plenty of jobs cleaning up and rebuilding. If we put some of the billions the government is pumping into disaster relief towards creating these jobs and letting the proud among these people work, they will feel better in the long run because they will returning to normalcy and a pattern of life. Now if all we do is hand it out, then they will take it and wait for more. Why go gather the eggs when someone is already got them in the pan with the toast and grits to boot for you? If we create the jobs and tell folks this is the way to get the money you need, we’ll find out very quickly who the determined are and who the lazy are.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Tab,

It would just be easier for you to tell me what you do understand; seeing as that would be a very short list, and I will try to help you along from there. ?comprehend?

FootMouse,

Yeah, well, my Daddy can beat-up your Daddy! How’s that for staying consistent with your juvenile replies, comprende? Shouldn’t you be out there working on a floating house or something, rather than trying to match wits with me?

You’re going bear hunting with a switch, son!

By Renee

September 15, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Ummm…maybe you are thinking I don’t work. I 50+ hours a week (on salary I might add so the company is getting more work than I get money).

But, these people need help, basic needs to be met. From the outside someone could look at me and say I have a cushy life, good job, house, my partner makes good money, it looks good from the outside. But a natural disaster could come, take my home, my car, I may barely survive. I might lose my partner, my child in this. In barely surviving, I haven’t had water or food in 4-5 days. I hope someone is there to give me food, water and a bath, let me regroup my head (I’ve just been through major trauma) and I will figure out what to do from there. Maybe my job is there, maybe I need to find another one, maybe I need to move, (but I have no money, my bank was in the natural disaster as well and the nearest branch is 150 miles away and I have no id to prove it’s me or no gas or means to get there). If I’m ever, ever in that situation, I sure hope someone helps me, with food and water at the very least. Yes, I will be back on my feet but not immediately.

And as far as I know Lou, I have never taken any of your money. Fortunately, I have enough of my own.

By Dusty

September 15, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Oh, gee!!

CD thinks we must choose between FEMA and Halliburton.

Guillermo thinks all wealth should be DISTRIBUTED evenly. Maybe he should get in line in Houston.

FatMoose needs to read Michael H. so he can learn how to be more condescending.

All of this is enough to make the “gangly” even more jangly.

By FatMoose

September 15, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Tab,

Your the one with reading comprehension issues. Why dont you address them?

I have watered down my post for you the best I can, and you still claim you cannot understand.

Seems as I am not the one with wit probmlems; let me know if you UNDERSTAND anything I have posted, otherwise I will assume from here on out that it is just above your head.

Good day;;)

By Jack

September 15, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Those who want to remove “under God” from the pledge sure aren’t conservatives Michael. The liberals seem to be all about political correctness. We cannot say Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, instead we are urged to say happy holidays & happy spring. What garbage that is. This country is going in the toilet because of that sort of thinking.

By RF

September 15, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Michael—-use some of the brains you so often point out that you have and read the following:

INTELLIGENCE DOES NOT GIVE ONE THE RIGHT TO ASSUME THAT ONE HAS A HIGHER STATION IN LIFE, NOR DOES ONE’S “DEGREE” OF EDUCATION MAKE ONE MORE QUALIFIED TO SPEAK. When you attack the intelligence and right of others to offer an opinion, you prove to be a condescending fool. Your “intelligence” is thus undermined and even ridiculed. What you say may be indeed by valid, but your attitude of superiority is offensive and smacks of a class system long dead in this country. In case you haven’t noticed, we live in a country where everyone has a right to speak what he or she believes. You have a right to offer your opinion as well, but you don’t make your point any more important, educated, or valid by personally attacking individuals. Besides which, this is a blog you idiot, so go write a book somewhere or something where those you think as foolishly as you do can choose to read your drivel. Just because you can quote Aristotle doesn’t mean you’re any better a person than any of the rest in this forum!

* AGAIN YOU SAY YOU DON’T INTEND TO WASTE YOUR TIME RESPONDING. WELL, IF YOU HAVE SUCH AMAZING THINGS TO TEACH OTHERS, GO DO IT AND QUIT STIRRING UP TROUBLE HERE. OBVIOUSLY YOU DON’T HAVE AS MUCH TO DO AS YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BELIEVE. WE’RE READY FOR YOU TO GO NOW!!*

By Lou B

September 15, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

Renee, if you are still working your 50+ and getting paid, then for you, the point is moot. Also, if you have “enough of your own”, then, again, moot point.

BUT, if you are standing in a line with your hand out for unemployment, disaster welfare, and either a free trailer or a housing voucher, then you should also sign up with whatever your qualifications are.

If you find work, or your company re-opens, then so be it, work. You should then start paying rent on the trailer, or give up the housing voucher. You will then no longer be on the dole, right?

I am sorry if I said “my money”. You see, since I worked my 62 hours, and my take home pay multiplied by my hourly rate only equals roughly 60% of those 62 hours, then by all the gods, some damn body has MY STINKING MONEY!!!! My gutless supervisor claims he sent it to the Federal government. Says they insisted. Strongly. When the Federal Government hands that, then, to another human being, there should be a return for that.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Renee,

I have a newsflash for you: Those poor darlings that were “rescued”, were “rescued” from New Orleans - not Andersonville.

They appear to be fully recovered from their couple days of “roughing it” in the Superdome. In fact, they have recovered so well, that some of them even have enough energy to fight out in the streets with the other low-lifes of Houston! A remarkable recovery!

So they might, just maybe, be able to muster enough strength and courage to take on one of the jobs that the other poster was referring to. Just maybe. We’ll have to keep a close eye on it…

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

MICHAEL H. What makes you think Taboga is racist?

RENEE/RF/LOU: I think we’re talking about two (or more) different sets of people, here. Most of the people who are requesting public assistance (or Red Cross assistance), are either working class or in poverty (likely already on public assistance).

When it comes to the working folks, I’ll have to go with RF in that most of them would probably want to get back to work as soon as possible - and would probably be willing to do whatever possible to either (a) contribute to rebuilding their city and their home, or (b) get back on their feet in their new city.

My company lost its office in NO, and moved hastily to get aid to the employees and their families so that they could return to work as soon as possible. All but one of them is temporarily working in another state. Most of them lost everything they had, some lost family members. But, they all realized that if they wanted to continue to eat and had any hopes of rebuilding their lives - they might want to dust off and get back to work.

Of course there are the ones who weren’t working to begin with, and will certainly NOT want to work for their public assistance, traumatized or not. These people didn’t work when they weren’t traumatized, you surely can’t expect them to want to work now.

I guess what I’m saying is that public assistance won’t necessarily make hard-working people lazy, but it also won’t push the lazy to get to work.

While I do believe it should be our responsibility to help our neighbors in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana, I also think that we need to focus on getting everyone back to work as their families are reunited.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

FootMouse,

Would you mind repeating that again - I didn’t get your point. And I am taking a mighty big risk assuming that there was one. But I am just a good guy and trying to help wherever possible. You’re welcome in advance, BTW.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

Yes, I do think that anybody who was working before will work again. I just see nothing wrong with helping people until that time. Of course, in any situation there are people who have no desire to work, won’t work and do just want a hand out. But there are people who legitimately need and deserve help. I just don’t like everyone grouped in the same category as these lazy bums with their hands stretched out or committing fraud to get money.

But yes, it is disheartening to work as many hours as you and I work and see it all gone. That is why we should have the Fair Tax (Neal Boortz).

By Stay At Home Mom

September 15, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

The gays caused it with their gay parties in New Orleans! It is the wrath of God on an evil sinning city!

By taboga

September 15, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

Michael,

You’re slipping. When you called me a “Racist”…

You forgot to call me a Nazi as well!

The Liberal handbook hasn’t changed in decades, so it shouldn’t be that hard for an intelligent and educated person like you to remember.

By Lou B

September 15, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

Well, I agree that one group will pull itself up by the boot straps a LOT faster than the other. But why can’t BOTH groups be expected to assist and or trade thier welfare, regardless of how short-lived, for some work? The second group will wind up doing a lot more community service work than the first, and so be it. One returns to her or his productivity by working and paying taxes, the other remains societally productive by exchanging labor for welfare.

Why can’t this idea be carried on no matter what the welfare is? Even corporate welfare, such as the airline bailouts, should be accompanied by letting federal employees or military traveling for government purposes have free tickets, up to the money given. Is this so hard to understand?

Fair tax won’t solve that. It will make sure more people pay taxes, but it still won’t solve the problem of the government handing those taxes out for free to people.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

it is disheartening to work as many hours as you and I work and see it all gone

You can say that again.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

Okay stayathomemom I’ll be the idiot and respond. You might have a small case if we were the only, heck , even the majority of people partying there.

By RF

September 15, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

I think the reason some of us are reacting so negatively Renee is that right now noone is mentioning a time limit on getting these folks back on their feet. After two weeks many have moved on and begun the tedious process. Many however, as pointed out already, seem to have nothing better to do than brawl in the streets. It’s those folks that give public assistance a bad reputation, and who will be right there on the news crying foul. How long can we or should we give those folks? Separating them from the legitimately needy can be difficult, but needs to be done don’t you think? Like you, I’d like to think there’d be some help for me, but I wouldn’t expect it for long. How can we help those who will expect it long term? Not arguing, just curious what you think.

By Jack

September 15, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

Yes and all the sin in Bali was what caused the tsunami last Christmas.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this

We party too many places, God would be too busy to put his wrath anywhere to keep up with us.

By Tim

September 15, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

the folks in Massachusetts better bunker down for the wrath of God in a big way… they have had over 6,600 gay couples marry (and I am sure most of them probably consummated that relationship… that’s a lot of butt sex and lord only knows what else)… and the legislature just shot down an amendment to ban gay marriage… “Thy wrath of God shall fall unpon thee” (in a biiiiiiiig way… but I hope He will wait until I get there… I don’t want to miss the party!!!)

By Protestant

September 15, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this

I heard New Orleans got struck because they were mostly Catholic down that way.

By RF

September 15, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

I wonder what Home Mom’s reasoning would be if the hurricane had taken out First Baptist Atlanta or the 700 club headquarters?

By Guillermo

September 15, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

So you mean to tell me that all of the offspring of the Bush, Busch, Hilton, Combs, Heinz, Tylenol families earned their wealth?

How delusional are you people? I never said that I wanted to distribute wealth evenly because that is communism and it stifles creativity.

Dusty, you dimwit, shouldn’t you be in the kitchen preparing your husbands meals, cleaning the house, rearing the young? That is what is expected of you, as a woman, along with being seen not heard.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

SAHM - I’m going to be the second idiot to respond to you. To God, sin is sin - there are no big ones and no little ones, all unrighteousness is sin. So, if He was sending hurricanes to “sinful cities” to demonstrate his wrath, who would be spared?

Indulge me. Please name one city that would be spared.

By RF

September 15, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Home Mom—whose fault would it be if the storm took out the 700 club headquarters or Joel Osteen’s megaplex in Texas? Couldn’t be sinners then, could it?

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

SAHM probably believes that the rain means God is crying.

By Tony

September 15, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

Information only. Louisiana’s Emergency Operations Plan. Please note section B on page 13 and read # 5 on the use of Buses. Oh well.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf

By Lou B

September 15, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

SAH Mom, All the times I ever spent on the Rue De Bourbon, there were a LOT fewer gays than the others. By your reasoning, South Beach in Miami should have been swallowed (sorry) up into Hades a LONG time ago…

Renee, just so I’m clear, I am well with you and anyone else on Flat/Fair taxes. Maybe soon you and I and folks like us will keep, and therefore control, a lot more of our own paychecks.

By Jack

September 15, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

Guillermo. You are the dimwit.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

RF, I see your point. I think there should be a cut off period, across the board. But I do think ALL the bad apples should be take out of the bunch. I do think it makes the publics opinion bad for all that need help and it hinders the help for the truly needy.

By Zack

September 15, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

Back to my stance against the dreaded feminist movement, a co-worker told me yesterday that he was divorced once, lost everything he had, and saw this happen even though his wife had the affair. Even Diane Glass would have to admit this is garbage. The feminist movement in itself is garbage. Their premises and inconsistent “reasoning” are garbage.

Someone earlier was complaining about stereotyping. Actually, stereotypes generally arise for a reason, so they’re not as bad as society hypes them as being. If you have an inherent bias or stereotype of a person, it’s okay as long as you look at that person as an individual and show unbiased judgment of that individual’s character.

Yet more garbage from the feminist movement: This new show about a woman being president is indeed, yep, garbage. While men are ridiculed in everything from TV commercials to skits by late-night, talk-show hosts like Jay Leno, guys who probably couldn’t do anything else for a living, we now have a show trying to portray a woman as being better-suited for the job than a man is. I’m sure if Hillary Clinton (man, I hope not) were president, these uncalled-for skits would be deemed insensitive and would come to a screeching halt.

I can just see the hate-filled posts from Lozen and Whiley coming at me now. Man, some people just can’t handle the politicially-incorrect truth.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

Speaking of the FairTax proposal… it seems that everyone I’ve heard mention the FairTax is in favor of it.

If so many people seem to be in favor of it, why can’t the sponsors get legislation passed?

By Scalia

September 15, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

If anything, I don’t think that men are getting that bad of a treatment in skits. How many shows are on where the wife is a big, unattractive and the husband is in shape, handsome, and looks like the Gillette Mach commercial men?

How come there are movies with older men, for example, Sean Connery and Catherine Zeta-Jones? Why can’t older actresses find work?

Why do women in movies, whenever a man leaves a woman for a younger woman, why does the woman always have a huge rack and act like a bimbo?

By RF

September 15, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Renee- it’s sad that the one’s who are abusing the system seem to make a lot of noise and general public spectacle. Doesn’t it seem like the ones who truly need it take it with humility and silence? It’s hard not to be bitter about public assistance when the ones generally making the news broadcasts are the ones fighting in the street. Amazing isn’t it how those few bad apples do, in fact, spoil the whole bunch?

By cb

September 15, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

You are in the teaching field…do you know this teacher?

http://www.clarke.k12.ga.us/do/teacherView?id=2535

By Quotor

September 15, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

From US News and World Report September 19 issue: concerning an emergency communications meltdown right after Katrina.

“Because of certain loopholes, TV broadcasters have been able to hold on to the radio frequency earmarked by the government for a nationwide emergency communications grid. Last year, the House defeated a bill that would have forced broadcasters to relinquish the frequency; sponsors introduced the bill last week”.

Let me guess, those slimey Democratic Liberal Communists forced the majority Republican House to defeat the bill.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Yes, RF you are correct

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

God doesn’t send hurricanes to punish the gay folks…he sends straight people. They’re turning Key West into Generica, South Beach has been dead as a gay place for a while…they’ve all moved up to Lauderdale, they’ve overrun Midtown Atlanta. It’s awful!

By Jack

September 15, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Zack. I agree with you on that new show with Geena Davis. Looks like it will be pure garbage. Why do all these actress’ keep getting their lips done. Looks bad, very bad.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Lol netbanker.

By Will

September 15, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Netbanker: They wait for the area to become safe and clean, and then move in to take it over.

By Archie

September 15, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

If God sends hurricanes to punish extreme sin then he could have started in Columbia,SC. I mean there’s magazine called the Free Times that has ads for alternative relationships and that same magazine has ads for escort services,gay bars and yes in Columbia there are places where one can gamble and you can drink all you want in Five Points. I am sorry Netbanker but God doesn’t need to start in Midtown but in my hometown. Yes Columbia has it all wine,women,song, and sex,drugs, and rock and roll. All of those things that New Orleans and Vegas are known for.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Wow Archie, everytime I’ve gone there I’ve been twiddling my thumbs. Maybe I don’t know the right people.

By Connoiseur

September 15, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

And just south of the Gamecocks big stadium just south of downtown Columbia, SC, are Adult Book Stores, selling the vilest of filth. Long lasting, those VCR tapes still play well.

By lozen

September 15, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

And Dusty jumps on to accuse FatMoose and MichaelH of being condescending. Ain’t that somethin’ that has to do with pots and kettles? Dusty, just be sweet okay!

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

LOL Netbanker… awww, it’s not that bad!

By Archie

September 15, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Renee I wish I could see you, and of course the age group you’re in, may lead you to a different type of entertainment but yeah if you take the main street exit coming off of 20-east and go to your right there’s a place called Billy D’s that caters to age group 27+. If you’re into more risque entertainment then take the two notch road exit off I-20 east and make a right and just ride and look to your left you will see some interesting,sin-filled clubs. I need some info on Atlanta for partying for the 30 plus person. Goodness nor badness is confined to one person,place,race, or religion. I applaud Mr. Bush for acknowleding some fault because that means things will improve when it comes to these disasters. He really does have more going for himself than some of his followers.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

JBM…follow the money for fair tax. Who loses? Tax attorneys, accountants, tax preparation companies, IRS, and to some degree the weathly. I mention the wealthy because they tend to be the group that benefits from tax loopholes and shelters. The problem for some with the Fair Tax is that it is based on consumption and there isn’t a way to hide consumption. The idea is a good one however in that income is no longer the tax base so we do not punish those who earn more simply because they earn more. It’s a great idea overall because illegal aliens will pay taxes on purchases as will corporations and foreign visitors. No individual or business can hide from this tax. The implementation is rather easy since all retailers and wholesalers must report sales taxes to the state so it’s just another tax level and report. The burdens of reporting are reduced on businesses as they no longer have to track income and payment of those taxes from payroll deductions so it actually makes their lives easier.

By Jack

September 15, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Everyone is celebrating that Bush admitted fault with the response to the disaster. Every boss should take responsiblity for the short commings of his underlings. It is that way in the corporate world as well as in the military. Just because he takes responsibility does not mean he was at fault. Jeez.

By Jack

September 15, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

NetB. Concerning your last post. Amen!

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

It IS JBM, II IS! San Francisco isn’t anything like a gay mecca as far as I’m concerned or what I was led to believe it was. I tell you we need to protect P-town and Fire Island and West Hollywood NOW before they’re de-fabuloused! We’re only 10% of the population…we don’t have a chance…we’re doomed!

By Comment

September 15, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Bush has ever come out and stated he was ‘at fault’. He has merely ‘accepted responsibility’.

BIG difference.

Bush does not make any mistakes ever, anyway. We all know that.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

Netbanker, the ones that are out make up 10%, the ones that are DL make up a MUCH larger percent….lol

By taboga

September 15, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

Jack,

I agree. And I didn’t hear him say that he was at fault for anything, but that he would take responsibility for any mistakes made by the Federal Government in all that…

That, somehow, got translated into: “Bush takes responsibility for his failures…!”

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

JACK - You’re right. Every boss should take responsibility for the actions of his employees… Especially if the boss was aware of those shortcomings and hired him anyway.

NETBANKER - I guess what I’m trying to figure out is what the opposition is saying publicly - surely they wouldn’t admit that “it’s a good idea, but it won’t benefit me because I’m an H&R Block stockholder…”

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Jack…what is the big deal about ‘under God’ in the Pledge, anyway? It was shoved in there during the 50’s Anti-Pinko-Commie days. If a good conservative is a strict Constitutionalist then shouldn’t they also be in support of the ORIGINAL Pledge of Allegiance (written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, btw) that has no mention of God?

His original Pledge read as follows: ‘I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.’

By Dusty

September 15, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

Well, Lozen, you watch the pots. I’m busy being sweet.

Guillermo, I hope your keeper will NOT put any food in your bowl tonight.

Michael H., I’ll have you know that my oeuvre is par excellence. Lunch at Arby’s—-magnifique! They forgot the fingerbowls. I forgive that little faux pas! (Just one “elite” to another! How sweet it is!)

Jack, you are a four star gentleman, just like our President.

To the Braves—WHAT HAPPENED?

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Netbanker - As long as we have Atlanta and Greenwich Village, we’ll survive! LOL!

By Jack

September 15, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

NetB. I know. I’m just sick of all this politically correct bull s**. Our founding fathers weren’t politically correct nor were they considered conservative. They were Christian.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

LOL RENEE - True!

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Did anyone see that Lifetime movie last night?

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

WAIT! I was going a bit overboard and have reconsidered West Hollywood…take it! It’s pretentious and obnoxious for no good reason. Maybe God will send a mini-earthquake to destroy it since LA doesn’t have hurricanes and it’s too urban for wild fires.

Hey Tim…how’s life? Just celebrated 14 years of togetherness yesterday.

By RF

September 15, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

And isn’t it fun catching the ones who are DL? I’ve run into a few trying to sneak around. Never understood why, but who’s to judge?

By RF

September 15, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Netbanker—what’s the secret to longevity? 14 years is quite unheard of these days! Congrats!

By chuck

September 15, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

Hey, There Michael H. goes again. He thinks, therefore he is. Let’s look at his argument logically. First, he thinks that because he teaches in a community college, that he is smarter than everyone else. He thinks that because he has a circumspect graduate degree in philosophy from some mail order college that he is smarter than everyone. He thinks because he can copy and paste Aristotle that he is smarter than everyone. He thinks because he has friends in EUROPE that he is smarter than everyone. He thinks because he hates President Bush that he is smarter than everyone. Not only is he smarter than everyone, he has no capacity for error. THEREFORE, we must all listen intently to what he says, follow his “superior” line of reasoning and change our entire belief system because HE SAYS SO. It matters not that our beliefs have been tried and tested for thousands of years, are based in fact, and cannot be disproven by science. It matters not that his ideas have been around for a couple of hundred years and have not been proven by science or that he isn’t really very good at framing arguments for them. Our job is to accept EVERYTHING he says with humility and undying faith because to do otherwise might hurt his feelings.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT HE STOPPED THINKING WHEN HE GOT TO COLLEGE. He was probably not overly bright in high school and had to depend on his teachers to think for him and when he went to college (assuming that he did) he allowed his professors to think for him. They, being liberal, transmitted their line of reasoning into the vacuum between his ears and now he spouts it out to us. He has never had an original thought in his life. He parrots the brilliant diatribes of his heroes The Als Franken and Gore and scours the internet for equally brilliant and witty whinings from other lefties. If you go back and look at his posts throught the last year and do a text search, you will see the intellectual dishonesty manifest in them. He cannot refute our arguments rhetorically so he tries to cover-up by attacking the source. That is the sleaziest thing for a self-proclaimed “professor” to do. Another tactic from his list of avoidance techniques is his patented “I will no longer respond to your posts” ploy. I guess he thinks if he says that it will make him look “above it all”. Of course, he continues to respond anyway so it just makes him look sillier.

RF, here is the bottom line with old Mr. Michael Hollifield. He is an intellectual lightweight with a part time position in a community college. He gets his jollies by participating in a number of blogs like the history channel blog where he proclaims himself to be David Hume, and others where assumes other pseudonyms and impresses the young communists with his use of big words and copy and pasted philospher quotes. Pay him no mind. Continue shooting down his sophomoric diatribes that he thinks are valid points in the debate and soon he will vanish.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Wow, Netbanker!! Congratulations! What’s your secret, man?

By Neal Summers

September 15, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

I am sure that Shaunti is probably a very nice person, and I think she genuinely believes what she writes, but it becomes glaringly obvious the more I read of her that she has an incredible disconnect from reality.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Renee…LOL…very good point. Come out, come out, wherever you are!

Jack..I think somewhere along the line tact got knocked up by sensitive and gave birth to politically correct…who has just grown like a weed, but is an ugly thing, bless it’s heart and the right to lifers won’t let us kill it because life is sacred.

JBM..haven’t heard much against the proposal. The only comments I’ve heard have been along the lines of all the people who would be put out of work…like I really care if we could eliminate most of the IRS jobs.

By Tim

September 15, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Netbanker… hello hello :)… life is good… Jake Gyllenhaal is on the cover of OUT Magazine and in December I will get to watch him play a gay cowboy (what more could a boy ask for!!! lol… well he could have had his shirt off in the cover picture but I digress)

CONGRATS on 14 years… that is wonderful! you’re a saint… my mom told me the other day that she knows being gay isn’t a choice b/c who in their right mind would choose to be attracted to men (we were having a ‘b*** session’ about boys lol)

my relationship is closing in on 3 years (the beginning of January… so maybe not exactly ‘closing in on’ lol)… if I hold on for 14 I definitely think I should be nominated for Sainthood… St. Tim of Sarcasm, Fabulousism, and Style :)

oh just don’t pray for that mini-quake until I get back from L.A :)

By Jack

September 15, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

RF. The secret is compromise. It’ll be #27 for me next month. How bout this one by Red Skelton:

I know I married Mrs. Right. I just didn’t know her first name was always! LOL

By Renee

September 15, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Congrats Net, we’re on 4 years, but technically we’re newlyweds as of June 25th.

By Quotor

September 15, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

More FEMA political appointees jumping ship:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/346648p-295731c.html

Who could have guessed?

By Archie

September 15, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Even though I am a “leftie” I wonder why the man doesn’t just tell his children not to repeat the pledge of allegiance rather than filing a lawsuit. Non-religious folk can be as obnoxious as conservative religious folk. Frankly, if the words “under God” are removed from the plegdge or kept in the pledge it doesn’t make a difference in behavior. I tried to point out in earlier posts that sin is everywhere and committed by everyone so I think people take proving a point too far…As for Bush I have stated that he is not at fault personally but he has acknowledged failures within his administration and he has the good sense to not be equivocal about it. The president has used words “unacceptable” and “make it right”. The president has accepted the fact that we have some issues that need to be dealt with. Jeez the man isn’t above criticism which is why I said he’s smarter than some of his supporters. “And to the extent that the federal government didn’t fully do its job right, I take responsibility”

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

Congrats, RENEE!! Congrats, Jack!

Wow, all these anniversaries are so encouraging! We celebrate our 3rd next month and I couldn’t be more excited!

By taboga

September 15, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Well said Chuck, well said.

So now Netbanker wants to be a traditionalist. Yes sir, we need to go back to the original Pledge of Allegiance he says. Why, when it comes to getting those horrific words: “Under God” - out of the Pledge, Netbanker suddenly becomes the Thomas Jefferson of our day - a true Patriot of the highest order!

Netbanker, if it were all up to you and I - we could make a deal. We’ll take the words (don’t say it too loudly) “Under God” out of the Pledge, if you on the Left will put away your secret decoder ring that finds a “Separation of Church and State” in the Constitution when you read it backwards while looking at it in the mirror - under a red light…

Being the newly founded staunch traditionalist that you are - could we get an Amen (no offense to Michael Newdow) on that.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

Thank you very much!

The secret is being a stubborn SOB and finding another stubborn SOB. Neither of you will ever walk out because you’re gonna make sure the other person is just as miserable as you. Misery loves company!

OK…I’m kidding about all that. Being stubborn (which is really just the butch version of patient) has helped us, but it’s primarily about finding someone who agrees that it’s easier to walk away from our problems than to work them out. You need to be able to be brutally honest with yourself which can mean admitting that sometimes we’re not as wonderful as we think we are. It’s about keeping things in perspective and letting the other person blow things out of proportion when they’re stressed or having a tough time. It’s about saying I’m sorry when you’ve done something wrong. It’s recognizing that relationships change over time and finding someone who also values Love that is a little tarnished, has a few dings and dents, and is maybe a bit frayed around the edges over love that is shiny and new and exciting….which is a short stage anyway.

By Archie

September 15, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

I have criticized women on this blog for not accepting criticism but it’s time for the men to accept criticism with respect to the federal government. That article in the new york daily news is interesting. It seems they don’t believe in each other. They being the guys that worked in FEMA.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

I know these years have flown by…I can’t imagine 14 years. We’ll either love each other to death or be at each other’s throats.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

I like that Net…it definitely takes two to make it work!

By taboga

September 15, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Archie,

The Federal Government is full of mistakes. Sometimes it even seems that the Federal Government itself is a mistake.

What you are trying to point out - is what is so incredibly hilarious about all of this to begin with. When you Leftists go on and on at every turn with the: “Why don’t Bush admit he makes mistakes” nonsense, it’s about as funny as someone demanding and demanding from a Football Coach: “Why can’t you admit that you can’t score a touchdown every time you get the ball?”

Of course he and the Federal Government makes mistakes - it goes without saying!

Or should anyway.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

I didn’t say I wanted to be a traditionalist or that we should go back or that I personally find the words Under God to be offensive or any such thing. I asked a question.

And we thank you for your sarcasm and sneering attitude as always!!

By Archie

September 15, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Renee you will be at each other’s throats…psych. In a few years you will notice some faults but then we ALL make mistakes and I mean big mistakes,that’s the reason for the for richer or poorer,sickness and in health,etc. being part of the vows. Congrats to Jack on his 27 anniversary,I have a long way to go and I know right now that I can improve but I also know I have done some things right. When it comes to marriage I lean toward the conservative side in that I am not in favor of shacking up. Hopefully I won’t get bashed for that but it’s just a personal preference. The president has 3 more years so I hope he does get the homeland security situation improved to the point that any critics have to eat crow. Anyway it goes as Americans we win,if he gets things improved we’re safer and if he doesn’t, we know the kind of people not to put in power.

By taboga

September 15, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Why you are very welcome Netbanker. But why are you speaking for everyone?

You make an art of digression: “I didn’t say, I didn’t mean, I didn’t say that I…” — “I was just asking a question”.

You do that very well.

By Fact

September 15, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

The word GOD is not found anywhere in the Constitution. unless the people who believe it is have some kind of ‘secret decoder ring’ unknown to everyone else.

I am sure that will be next week’s topic.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Tim…I thought you took that trip already. And I do take that earthquake curse back…just got off the phone and not only do I need to take a trip to our corporate offices near Malibu, but also to visit a client in the Oakland area next month. We’ve had enough natural disasters for a while anyway.

Your mother’s comment had me giggling…because it’s so darn true. What did your hubby do that you were indulging in a b*** session?

Time does fly…we aren’t exactly sure how 14 years happened to us either…I swear it feels like we just started dating not too long ago. And Renee…you’ll do both.

Jack…congratulations on 27 years!

I don’t care what gender people are…staying together is WORK! Why people don’t seem to get that is a mystery to me. We work to find them, work to meet them, work to date them, work to ‘marry’ them and then they think it’s all ‘happily ever after, the end.’ I tell you I think we should file a class action suit against Disney! I don’t want money, but I want to see Cinderella after popping out a couple of little royals and The Prince after he’s put on a few pounds and lost his hair!! Or maybe Ariel when her fins have started to droop and her scales aren’t quite so shiny. You get the idea.

By lozen

September 15, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Rf, I disagree. I didn’t take offense at what Michael said about being educated. Do you really believe people without higher education are capable of solving (or even understanding) the complex problems facing us in this country? Maybe that’s why it seems so simple for so many Americans. Many people don’t know anything about how our problems began (history), why they persist (sociology), or what can be done to solve them, (political history, social history, U.S. history), or how other societies solve their problems! They don’t even want to hear anything about how the Europeans solve their problems because they believe we are superior to them in every way. They think the U.S. which just came up 15th on quality of education in the entire western world, doesn’t need to even check out what other countries are doing! What incredible chauvinism. When you put that fact alongside Georgia being at the very bottom of all U.S. states in quality of education, you begin to get a realistic picture of how terribly valuable and truly informed most opinions on this blog are. That’s why many on here cannot do more than throw out sound bites, copy and paste others’ opinions, and call people names. That’s why there is very little true debate on this blog but much insult. The issues we’re discussing involve much more knowledge and thought than you’ll ever learn from listening to Rush on the radio. I’m not saying that’s what you do, but it certainly is what many on this blog do. One of the values of higher education is learning that systems are complicated, people are complicated, everything is not black or white, and when you get down to it, how very little any one of us knows.

By Renee

September 15, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

I agree with u netbanker, and it’s even harder work with 2 females, u got mood swings all over the place, 2 periods lol I deal with it all……(I looove the Cinderella comparison)

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Gee I guess it’s my turn on the Taboga hit parade. Hooray, I made the top 10…and I thought he didn’t care.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

ARCHIE - I wasn’t in favor of shacking up either… until they told me I couldn’t get married.

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

Lozen…very good point regarding complexity of problems facing our nation. I’m sure each of us has at one time or other made a decision and had to suffer some unintended consequences because we either didn’t know better or didn’t fully think through the implications of our actions. Sometimes the most simplistic answer is the right one, but more often than not one needs to dig deeper or think more broadly in order to determine a solution.

By Tim

September 15, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Netbanker… our trip to L.A. is at the beginning of October… very excited to see our friends out there… they are also going to take us on a tour of San Diego as well :)

I honestly cannot remember what that particular b*** session was about (he probably just said something stupid lol)… we tend to have a weekly session (not always about the hubby… we just like b*** lol)… I just remember what she said cus I was so surprised she actually took my side for once (it probably had something to do with the dog… she will defend her ‘grandbaby’ all day long lol)… usually I hear “now Timmy (I will always be her little boy I guess lol) you found one that surprisingly is actually able to handle you… you need to be nice to him” lol

By Scott

September 15, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

Ok, well same on all of you for taking the bait from Stay at Home Mom’s ludicrous statement…but not wanting to be left out (hahaha) I will throw this on the fire

JOHN 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her

ROMANS 3:9-11 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[a]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.

So as far as the hurricane being the wrath of God against sin…we’re all in big trouble, people

Michael H The reason you missed my comment about other nations lying awake at night was because of a typo…it read “certainly other nations” and shouls have read “Certainly NO other nations”..my mistake. Dems have alienated religious factions by not courting them at all but ignoring them. Not showing them their point of view but dimissing a religious point of view alotgether in appeasance of the secular parts of the party. The Repubs have done the opposite, as there are secular parts of it as well that are benignly neglected. They aren’t as strongly represented, but neither are they opposed as openly. For example, why does it matter if “Under God” is in the pledge of alleigance? If you don’t want to say it, then don’t. Nobody is going to make you. Your alleigance to this country will be more defined by what you do than what you say at any rate. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment or expression of religion. That’s a double edged sword. Again back to the “don’t tell me what to believe/don’t tell me what not to believe” argument. If I were a man with a family who didn’t like the content of television programming, then I wouldn’t watch it. If you don’t like the content of the pledge, don’t say it. I won’t be bothered either way. Sometimes the best expression of free speech is to stay silent.

By Just Being Me

September 15, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Amen RENEE. Amen.

By Scott

September 15, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Man my typing is bad today! Should have read (tongue in cheek of course) “shame on…” not “same on”. Be merciful, grammar police!

Lozen, I agree that there are many complex problems to face. Higher education does help with some of that. Some things are black and white, but not most issues. You made the comment that one of the benefits to higher education is that shows us how little each of us really knows, which is true. I think that one of the benefits of that revelation is that it should lead to more humility and responsibility, not haughtiness. I have European friends I am very close with but the cultures are not the same, nor would the solutions be. We spend way too much time asking around opinions. If we are going to borrow ideas they should be for improvement, not approval

By Scott

September 15, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Man my typing is bad today! Should have read (tongue in cheek of course) “shame on…” not “same on”. Be merciful, grammar police!

Lozen, I agree that there are many complex problems to face. Higher education does help with some of that. Some things are black and white, but not most issues. You made the comment that one of the benefits to higher education is that shows us how little each of us really knows, which is true. I think that one of the benefits of that revelation is that it should lead to more humility and responsibility, not haughtiness. I have European friends I am very close with but the cultures are not the same, nor would the solutions be. We spend way too much time asking around for opinions. If we are going to borrow ideas they should be for improvement, not approval

By Netbanker

September 15, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Tim…if you’re out and about in WEHO and notice a short, thin, blond with hearty laugh and a Southern accent say Hello because it will probably be me. San Diego is very pretty and clean city. I find it much more enjoyable than L.A. One thing I thought was really funny in a wierd way were the signs on I5 that looked something like school crossing signs and then you realize that they’re Illegal Alien Crossing warning signs.

Heheheh…aren’t Mothers the BEST? I about fell out of my chair at a family gathering when my Mom and I were quietly chatting about relationships (was in a fight with hubby because he didn’t go) and she said that over 41 years she was sure my father had wished that the next time she went out the door that she just wouldn’t come back because she knew she sure had wished that herself of him.

By taboga

September 16, 2005 07:48 AM | Link to this

Good Morning Comrades,

I couldn’t wait for the day to begin. The anticipation of learning more and more about how Gay and Lesbian couples build on their relationships - was almost more than I could bear! And Tim, could you please keep us posted on all the wonderful things that you are doing on your trip to California? And in case you missed the post, if you happen to see a short, thin and blonde person speaking with a southern accent out there - it’s probably Netbanker. So be sure to say hello…

Anyway, have all you concerned and compassionate do-gooders out here heard about all the fraud and abuse that is occuring with the hurricane relief assistance? It seems that many of the “victims” have been double and triple dipping into the pot — signing up several times at several locations for some “relief”.

In fact, in case you haven’t heard, one of the “victims” here in Atlanta, used her “relief” money to buy Louis Vuitton luggage! Of course, I guess, when you’re living out of a suitcase so to speak - you deserve the best. Being a “victim” and all, that is.

It’s gotten so bad that they had to suspend the debit cards and bring in the FBI to investigate all the fraud!

Who would have ever thought this would happen…?

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 08:40 AM | Link to this

Tab, Yeah I heard all that a couple days ago!

And of course no one could have anticipated the fruad; no sense pointing fingers; best get in there and change it if you are unpleased.

See, I expect the govt to waste my money. We want to think of the govt as some paternal figure,with us as the kids; but the govt is really the kid, kid gets allowence (taxes), kid blows it on destructive toys and pi$$es it away next door, etc.

About time we kicked the kid out of the house and had him get a JOB!

By Renee

September 16, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this

I didn’t hear that, did the AJC report it?

It’s sad but not surprising. Hopefully everyone committing these fraudulent act will be dealt with accordingly.

By RF

September 16, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this

lozen—I guess because I don’t like Michael’s haughtiness, I came down a little hard on higher education. I too have an advanced degree and am working on another. You are right that higher education does give one a broader and sometimes better vantage point on a given problem. My point to Michael was that waving a degree around and looking down upon those less educated is just plain wrong. Sure, people without educations like to THINK they know an awful lot that they don’t. But let’s face it, sometimes practical wisdom comes from life experience regardless of education. My parents are two of the smartest people I know and both never got beyond high school. They many not be able to quote Aristotle with the sniping superiority that Michael does, but I’ll bet they could solve life issues as well as or better than he does. I’m very proud of those who seek higher degrees and levels of knowledge, but I just don’t think that gives us the right to be elitist about life. We may use better vocabulary, or see the relevance of historical patterns, but does that make us any better at figuring out what to do when the kitchen faucet is spraying like Old Faithful into the kitchen? We need folks at all levels to make this world of ours work and I choose to think that many of the wisest among us may not always hold the college degrees. I have little patience for those like Michael who believe their degrees make them somehow genetically more superior to the rest. Just my opinion for what it’s worth.

By Tim

September 16, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

Netbanker… I sure will say hi :)… I am very excited about the trip… should be a lot of fun (don’t worry Tobago I will give you EVERY LAST detail of my trip… I know you will be looking forward to it)

I can’t tell you how many times growing up my nana would say she was going to run away and not let anyone know where she was going… I told her just to be sure to send bday and xmas presents… my grandparents celebrated their 53rd wedding anniversary this past June… when my papa was telling me about it he said ‘yup we were happily married for 15 years’ lol

By Education

September 16, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

Education

A man may have degrees to spare With parchments hanging on the wall He may be filled with knowledge rare And marvelous facts bring to recall Yet still of wisdom be bereft And, by true learning, still be spurned. For education’s what is left When you’ve forgotten what you’ve learned.

A man is judged by what he is And not by things he may recall. What finally counts is really this And not diplomas on a wall. For folks should look beyond the brain And all the letters that are earned, Since education will remain When you’ve forgotten what you learned.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

Hey Chuck what is this obsession you have with MichaelH? How do you (alledgely) know so much about him? I really am beginning to wonder about your subconscious desires toward men. He’s the second one on this blog you’ve become obsessed with I believe.

By Jack

September 16, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

My mother used to say, “book smart, life dumb”. That applies to too many people.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

Yeah AJC published a couple of them. One lady is on trial (right?) for it. Someone talked a compasionate college student into letting them stay at their dorm because they got kicked out of their apartment in stone mountain claiming they were evacuees. Its sick to see people taking advantage and it really puts a damper on getting relief to the ones truely in need.

Congrats to all the anniversaries!!! My guy and I have been off and on so much in the past 4 years I don’t ever know if we are on or off again much less how long we’ve actually been together. =/ But I look to my parents for encouragement. They celebrated 36 years together this past june. My grandparents were also a couple to look up to. 52 years. No matter the situation of the couple, staying together is a lot of work as someone already pointed out. With as much short term marraiges we see in the media, I definitely admire those that work to keep their relationships together! BTW, did you hear that kenny chesney and renee zelwigger are already getting an annulment? =/ go figure right?

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 09:40 AM | Link to this

Tim - LOL about your grandparents. I don’t think I ever remember mine being lovey towards each other. You heard my grandmother yell his name a lot but that’s about it. hehe. Mom said they never were really were publicly affectionate but he used to always kiss her on the cheek, but as they got older it just didn’t happen as much. Congrats to them! that’s awesome.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

RF, as I remember it, MichaelH was responding to some statement by one of the uneducated neanderthals who lurk on this blog when he waved his educational accomplishments so I gave him a lot of slack.

Anyway, after interviewing people between 50 and 80 about getting old in the U.S. I came out very surprised and disappointed. I was in my 30’s when we did this study and I had believed everyone grew wiser as they grew older! Again, a stereotype!

By Qatar

September 16, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

What is it with you people and education? Were most of you the people that sat in the back of the room in the low reading group?

So Michael H. has a couple of degrees, why belittle him? Several people around the world have degrees, and it is not frowned upon. It makes Americans look smarter since most people think Americans are stupid and arrogant.

By Education

September 16, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

The Education poem was written by a highly-educated. multiple-degreed relative, who dabbled in poetry.

By Stu

September 16, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

Cheers to RF for defining the issue in a clear and thoughtful way. Those who exhibit the knee-jerk reaction of blaiming the US government without complete information need to dig up their American Government textbooks from high school and read about federalism (especially the concept of posse comitatus). As RF said, FEMA is not designed to be a first responder — and organizations that usually help out in a first response capability (Red Cross, Salvation Army) were initially told to stay out of LA by the Governor. Also, the de rigueur concept of governing by network requires that all levels of government - federal, state & local — to pull their own weight. This was not the case in LA. Lastly, Georgians beware. If a major disaster were to hit, say, Atlanta, the person that would be in charge would be Fulton County sheriff Myron Freeman (because he is the “High sheriff”). Shouldn’t we be worried, considering his handling of the courthouse shootings?

By lozen

September 16, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Jack, my mother used to say similar things to put down educated people. Just like some poor people pretend every wealthy person got their money in a crooked way. It’s just a way of covering up envy and inferiority feelings. An educated “life dumb” person is still better off that a “life smart” uneducated person. You know that saying, “I’ve been rich and I’ve been poor and rich is better?” I’ve been ignorant and I’ve been educated and educated is better! I’ve been around uneducated people and I’ve been around educated people and I’d rather be around the educated. So, you may ask, what am I doing on this blog? Oh, well. Still trying to work out childhood issues probably!

By Tim

September 16, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this

buildingbridges… my fondest memory of my grandparents was a time we had to share a hotel room… I had gone over to my sister and aunt’s room and came back around midnight… they were already asleep and when I walked in I saw the cutest thing… my papa was holding my nana close to him as they slept… it was pretty cool to see after so many years they were still very much in love (that is why I was never too worried when my nana said she was going to run away… I knew she would be lost without papa and vice versa)

By RF

September 16, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Qatar—not belittling anyone, believe it or not. Michael opened that can of worms by being condescending. I’m not belittling his education or knowledge, just his attitude in using it. I’m not, repeat not, knocking anyone’s education here!! I’m just saying, and please read this carefully- I’m going to use a word I used in a comment to Michael—-education does not give one the right to be supercilious to anyone else. Look that one up if you didn’t learn it in the fast reading group up front. Education is something to be proud of, but I just don’t think you gain the right to think yourself a better person for it. If you don’t agree, that’s fine, but please be civil to those who may appear to be somehow less worthy. I’m not throwing my degrees around and copping an attitude about my higher education. I still have to put my pants on one leg at a time…

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

AWW Tim - call me a sap (that’s fine I don’t care) but that brought tears to my eyes! I long for something like that. I would hope everyone longed for love like that. It sounds like you have great relationship role models. OH how sweet. (sorry…I’ll stop gushing now).

By Jack

September 16, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

Lozen. That saying is not meant to belittle those with an education. It is meant to belittle those who lack common sense.

By chuck

September 16, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

RF, That is exactly the point with Michael H. He thinks because he has a degree in philosophy, which basically prepares you to do…what?, that he is an expert on poverty, military strategy, politics, evolution and on and on and on. My Dad had a 10th grade education and quit school to join the navy in WWII. He never went back to school, but lived a very successful life through hard work, dedication to his God and family, and love of his country. He and I solved many of the world’s problems sitting around his dining room table. Unfortunately we pay more attention to educated people with no COMMON SENSE than to people who can actually solve the problems. We (meaning educated fools like Michael) don’t value the opinions and solutions offered by the great unwashed masses. That is the reason I give him such a hard time. We would all be better off if he and his ilk moved to “Europe” where they all have time to sit around looking down their noses at us poor stupid Americans while THEY pay two thirds of their incomes in taxes to support the shiftless, lazy dopeheads that hold us in such low regard.

BTW Lozen, Bite me.

By Tony

September 16, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

Wisdom tends to grow in proportion to one’s awareness of one’s ignorance.

When you come to see you are not as wise today as you thought you were yesterday, you are wiser today.

By RF

September 16, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

Lozen—generally I agree that I’d prefer to be around educated people most of the time, but you can’t argue the fact that if the wind blows your house down, your degree isn’t going keep the rain off of you. Some of my friends and quite a few of my family members are “uneducated” on paper, but I’d be happy to have them around when a crisis occurs. Just trying to be open-minded and give everyone a chance, that’s all. In this life, sometimes you need some common sense along with the degrees.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

A person can be very smart in every sense of the word but when faced with life issues they have no clue what to do and vice versa. I’ve always called it book smarts vs. street smarts. I have met very few people that have a good balance of both, but in the whole scheme of things, I only know a tiny percentage of the population so there might be more out there than I think.

I had a good friend in HS that was SO smart, straight A’s, full rides to college, everything but my goodness she was one of the “dumbest” persons I ever met. No common sense to save her life!

By Tim

September 16, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

buildingbridges… I am right there with ya ;)… we can be saps together lol

Chuck… you just have such a wonderful Christian attitude… makes me wonder why on earth people have bumper stickers that say “I don’t mind God… it’s His followers I can’t stand!”

By RF

September 16, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

Chuck—my point exactly. Europeans looked down on us when we formed this country, and the French went and gave us the doggone statue—wonder what that was supposed to mean to us ignorant hicks…

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

booksmarts (aka education) is overrated in a lot of situations. My education can’t fly me to the carribean but my ‘uneducated’ HS graduate cousin that worked his a$$ off can. My uncle who has been soley responsible for maning the construction crew that built probably a lot of the buildings you are sitting in now, spent 1 year in college. Sure, I might have the job to design those buildings but it takes the hands and the smarts to physically build them according to specs. I have an engineering degree but I gaurantee that he knows as much probably more than I do about how it actually works from experience.

I think education has become an excuse for some people. I love being educated through school but there are so many things I’d still love to learn. (btw, one of the reasons I am on this blog is to learn from every one of you. I learn something new every day from it!)

By chuck

September 16, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

Tim, I’d tell you to bite me but I might catch something.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

Quatar, don’t you many people here couldn’t care less what them thar foreigners think about them? The attitude expressed here toward education probably helps to explain why Georgia is on the bottom in quality of education. Which came first, poor education or lack of respect for education? I grew up here and I know the inside of that clinging to the idea that “we’re smarter just cuz we, by god, say so.” Where else in the world do people want to teach creationism in the public schools? We live in the bible belt and fundamentalist religion and ignorance go hand in hand. When I was a young adult trying to understand what life was all about, I was told by uneducated preachers who had “been called by god” I could not question anything because I put myself in danger of hell fire! If I’d been told that when I was five or six I might have believed it and my education in that arena (and this may carry over into all arenas) would have come to a halt. Many people grow up priding themselves on never questioning anything and believing they have the only true knowledge because they have faith. My father used to say “Ignorance is bliss,” and he really believed that. Look at Zack, does his life seem blissful?

By Tim

September 16, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Chuck… yeah like an erection

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

Curious: What would you all define as “Common Sense?”

Not a situation to describe it, but a decent concise definition.

I would suspect it has to do with synthisizing information into practicle action. Yet, that WOULD require LEARNING how to think critically; and as that ability increases, so does the complexity of the situation you are trying to synth: Therefore, the common sense one has concerning an issue is proportionate to the amount of facets of that issue one can juggle without getting boggled.

So, the over educated (think data, not processing power) man gets bogged down by details - making the problem MORE complex; where the under-educated man can only look at a limited number of the facets at once, causing the problem to be oversimplified.

So in the words of a great man: “A mans got to know his limitations;” for you ability to not look like an a$$ hangs in the balance of knowledge and processing power.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

Tim - I’m a christian and even I get irritated at some of His followers. The judgemental hollier than thou attitudes just drive me nuts. God commanded His followers to spread the word and show others through example, I don’t ever recall reading where He said to pound people on the head with your bibles, judge whoever we please and to please put down everyone that you feel is unworthy…

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this

I think it might be Michael H.’s history here that got so many people riled up.

When I read his comment about considering himself a somewhat educated person, I wasn’t offended by it and didn’t really think it sounded that haughty.

But, then, I haven’t been around long enough to gauge his general attitude…

By Atman

September 16, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Ah yes… “Book smart, life dumbâ€? people…

There’s no bigger frustration than to see a person coughcoughbigbrothercoughcough* glorifying himself as a managing genius, yet unable to type a decent greeting letter , even if using a spell checker or take decent pictures with a **digital camera or program a VCR for that matter.

The kicker being that people around him can’t see that because they’re stupified by his big dictionary words and shameful flattery. Yet at the same time he wonders “how a numbnut like Dubya got re-elected”.

Can you see the irony?

By Tim

September 16, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

buildingbridges… I don’t feel that way about all Christians just so you know (some of Bruce’s comments grind on my nerves… but at the end of the day I believe he has a good heart… but Chuck is a whole other story)

By Renee

September 16, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Amen bridges; good comeback Tim lmao

By RF

September 16, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

Oh my lozen, now you’re implying religion is responsible for lack of education! Watch out, the conservatives will have carpal tunnel from trying to type so fast!! I may not like the religious fundamentalists, but I have to respect their right to feel the way they do. I can’t look down on them—I just ignore them mostly if I don’t agree. Aren’t we thankful though, to live in a country where we have a choice about what to believe?

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

ROFL Tim!!

By Michael H.

September 16, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Jack,

I hardly see any evidence that the country is “going to the toilet� because of the marginal and largely ineffective efforts that you referred to which may reflect my views but constitute a minority among liberals. Clinton falsely claimed that the constitution prohibited atheists from running for the presidency and Lieberman, who invoked God or religion in virtually every speech, said, wrongly again, that the constitution was a document for a religious people.

There is no general view or program among genuine liberals regarding the status of religion in society other than to maintain state neutrality as necessary to protect the right of the individual to choose to believe and practice whatever they want. The right wing media of talk radio and scream television grotesquely exaggerate and largely distort a handful of cases in order to rouse people such as yourself, their modus operandi. No one is prevented from saying Merry Christmas and there is no limitation on religious freedom in this country, though if one is a non-believer they had better keep a low profile and stay out of politics because of the prejudice that exists among the American citizenry against them. A prejudice I would note which is absent from European countries, which the United States seems to fall behind more each year.

Many of the “founding fathers� were deists, not Christians, and they did not intend to establish a Christian state. The words “God,� “Christ,� and “Christianity� are not in the constitution and the Supreme Court has never upheld that interpretation.

The real power when it comes to political influence over matters to do with religion is concentrated in the organizational apparatus of fundamentalism located Colorado Springs and Virginia and the White House.

Lozen,

Thanks for your comments, though I admit that when arguments fail to reach conservatives here, as they always do, I take sport in just stirring up them up, (one of who just made up a biography attributed to me that said more about him than anything�great example of a sustained genetic fallacy too) those who actually take themselves, Fox, and Rush and others seriously. Nothing angers them more than a demolishing their arguments while they call you names and then leaving them when there is nothing more to say. Maybe I should annoy them by mentioning an interesting article I read from the heaven forbid, New York Review of Books. Anyway, you or anyone else here not brainwashed by the talk shows, might find it interesting. The author of the piece argued that the view of September 11 attacks in Seattle and how to best respond was quite different from most of the rest of the country:

Christopher Hitchens, stranded in Seattle after giving a lecture on September 10 in Walla Walla, Washing ton, said over dinner that “at times like this, America turns into a one-party state,” and reminded me of the prophecy made by Robert Lowell back in 1966, when he answered a questionnaire sent to him by the editors of Partisan Review:

I have a gloomy premonition… that we will soon look back on this troubled moment as a golden time of freedom and license to act and speculate. One feels the sinews of the tiger, an ascetic, “moral” and authoritarian reign of piety and iron. “I think we’ve just entered the reign of piety and iron,” Hitchens said.

The odd thing is that Hitchens, who has always been on the left, proceeded to reinforce the policy of “piety and iron� or the Bush administration, by supporting the war in Iraq.

But that is where we are, wholly out of step with most of the world, draining our resources for an unjustified and unnecessary war in Iraq, and being subjected to insufferably intolerant and simple minded fundamentalists.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

FatMoose - I simply meant every day things. Like, hmmm, that’s a tough one to come up with a concise wording of what I mean.

You defined it in the context of conversation and knowledge, I mean it in a way of daily life activities. Like when I gave her directions to the house and told her to turn right at the 4 way stop, she turned right at the red light before that. To me (and I may be mistaken) that’s a common sense sort of thing. That is just one very small example through our 5 year friendship.

When in discussion the more you know the more power you have behind it and like you said, the more educated tend to overcomplicate things, which doesn’t make it better. I mean the common sense to know to brush your teeth that morning (major exaggeration..).

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

Anyone catch the documentary on the churches making of “The devil and Hell” on the History channel last night?

Amazing what organized religion did to christianity. The hellfire and brimstone stuff became standard bc people attended sermons JUST to hear the horror stories about hell! And the church enforce the sermons since it was filling up the pews.

Talk about no common sense! How about understanding “not putting any gods/false idols before me,” much less the devil and hell!!!

By Tim

September 16, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this

thanks Renee :)

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Tim - lol yeah… I hear ya. :)

Religion responsible for lack of education? hmmm.. I might be one of the few but I grew up in a religious home and was ALWAYS encouraged to ask questions and to question authority. Never follow blindly. What the uneducated preacher told you had nothing to do with him being uneducated or even with him being “called” it was him being a controlling person that didn’t like being questioned.

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this

BB - Chances are, those Christians aren’t Spirit-filled. My mom always said that if you’re really filled with the Spirit, there’s no room for anything else (I’m sure she meant that figuratively, not literally - but it’s still a lesson). The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, PEACE, meekness, longsuffering, goodness, faith, temperance… if a person doesn’t demonstrate those qualities consistently, I’d question what kind of Christian they really are.

By Dusty

September 16, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Friends, Romans and countrymen,

A little change of subject here. I hope you read David Brooks column in AJC this morning. It was a winner. So funny I nearly spilled my coffee. I knew Judge Roberts’ interviews were a Democratic side show but Brooks covers it better than Saturday Night Live.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

FatMoose - EXACTLY!!! You make an excellent point. gods and false idols also include posessions. (see you can intellengently argue with a conservative and a christian. Not all of us are as closed minded as many would like to think). =P

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

JBM - your mom says what I’ve always been taught too. If someone doesn’t demonstrate those qualities consistantly, I don’t know if I would question their christianity, even those completely filled with the Spirit still have bad days. Of course, those claiming christianity that never or rarely demonstrate those qualities…that’s a different story. lol

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

Bridges,

I am a christian; but in that I try to emulate christ - no more, no less.

And I do not have preconceive ideas of what someone IS limited to, but I will not be surprised by a person enforcing a stereotype. So, in that vein, I appriciate that you defy the religious stereotype.

This is what I find interesting: People WANT to be stereotyped. They WANT people to think “he is a musician, lesbian, gay, surfer, professor, etc.” They just do not want it applied negitively.

So you end up with an individual that wants to be associated with a group, and accepted by that group; but not accociated with negetive trends that occur in that group! We humans are screwy things!

By chuck

September 16, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Common sense is sound judgement OR instinctively being able to do what is called for in any given situation and it is instinctive, not based on any specialized knowledge.

For instance… a category 5 hurricane is coming toward the general vicinity of the city in which you live. You find a way to get out of town. You don’t have to be a meteorologist to figure that one out. If you have general knowledge that a category 5 hurricane is dangerous, you don’t have to know how it formed, the exact speed and direction of the winds, be able to construct computer models of projected paths, or how to use a barometer. On the other hand, you can know all of those things, but if you stay in town sipping bourbon on your front porch…you will probably die.

Common sense from a practical perspective would tell you that the government giving out money is a bad idea. I love President Bush, but I don’t think he is using common sense right now. The programs he announced on TV last night are huge overreaches by the government. Those ideas if implemented would change the way we live forever. It is a patently stupid EUROPEAN approach to solving an American problem and it will cause nothing but headaches for future generations.

It is like what the democrats do. Somebody gets shot with a handgun, well we have to get rid of ALL handguns. It is over the top.

A common sense approach would be to wait until all of the emotion and hyperbole have faded away and see what the actual effects were and then do the minimum necessary to solve the problem. Look at what worked and what didn’t and THEN change policies to improve responses in the future. The mistake we often make is to be guided by emotion and “experts” and POLLS, rather than by common sense.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Chuck, A common sense approach would be to wait until all of the emotion and hyperbole have faded away and see what the actual effects were and then do the minimum necessary to solve the problem. Look at what worked and what didn’t and THEN change policies to improve responses in the future. The mistake we often make is to be guided by emotion and “experts� and POLLS, rather than by common sense.

What you describe is not instinctive, but the process I alluded to: juggle as many elements as you can without getting boggled, and sythisize it into a non-emotional/non-reactionary action. Correct?

By taboga

September 16, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

If you have to ask what “common sense” is - you lack it.

And how many times have you heard someone say: “He’s a real smart guy - he just doesn’t have any common sense”…?

Nothing can be more incorrect than that statement. “Common sense” is not an elective, whereby you can be “smart” but not have it. “Common sense” is a prerequisite to being “smart”.

Those who are far smarter than the average guy, have common sense - and a whole lot more.

And to a couple of the rubes out here who think that some of us are “making fun” of people who have an education - you cannot be more wrong. No one is belittling the “education”, but rather the person who has one and thinks that alone makes him/her the resident expert on all matters.

I’ll say it one more time: An intelligent person with an education is still an “intelligent person”. A dumba$$ with an education is still…

By Qwl

September 16, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Anybody read Karl Rove was having kidney stones problems immediately after Katrina? Perhaps why Bush was unable to function. Now that Rove is back, Bush ‘on the ball’.

Dusty - would love to read the David Brooks column, however unable to locate at ajc.com. Was it in newsprint only?

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

BB - Good point. We all have bad days… can’t deny that one.

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

FAT MOOSE - Applying a label (such as, calling someone a musician, a surfer or a lesbian), is NOT the same as stereotyping someone. Calling me gay is not the same as assuming that I have a knack for interior design because I’m gay.

And, I reject your idea that humans want to be stereotyped. I, for one, do not.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

FatMoose - we humans are definitely screwy things. I’m sure you’ve gathered this from my posts but I really ditest stereotyping and labels. The only place I want a label and to be recognized for accomplishments (like degrees and certifications) is in the workplace. That’s the only place that it really holds any merit.

Taboga - Common sense is not a prereq to being smart. Or maybe your thinking a different kind of smart. A naturally smart person, you might be right, but someone that is well educated and learned through schooling, that statement I don’t think would apply.

By chuck

September 16, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

Not exaxctly FatMoose. The common sense is in knowing to NOT try to solve the problem in the heat of the moment. Most politicians don’t exercise common sense because they govern based on polls. Bush saw his approval level fall so he REACTED to the emotion. There is also a level of common sense that comes through analysis, but that analysis does not necessarily have to be done by EXPERTS. Common sense in this instance is knowing that the response by the federal government initially in the Katrina disaster was probably as timely and effective as possible given the magnitude of the disaster and the resources available. That is the reality, but the President is acting out of the PERCEPTION that the problem was bigger than it actually was.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

No one likes being stereotyped but most everyone wants to be labeled. And yeah, there is a big difference.

By RF

September 16, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this

FatMoose—we all want to be in a group of like-minded folks;We humans are social by nature. The word stereotype is the problem- it carries a negative connotation.

By Dusty

September 16, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

Owl, I did read David Brooks’ column in the print edition of AJC. Hope you don’t miss it. More entertainment!

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

RF - Don’t wanna be nitpicky, but I think the problem goes beyond the negative connotation associated with the use of the word stereotype. The very act of stereotyping, the definition of the word, is troubling to me. I abhor any type of stereotyping, even the seemingly positive ones (like Asians being great at math).

No matter what you call it, to me, it’s bad. A rose by any other name…

By RF

September 16, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

JBM—true, true. I think that’s what I was trying to get at—it’s Friday, I’m tired, and REALLY in need of a babysitter and a night out, but that’s beside the point!! I think most of us who are at least moderately educated see the negative effects of being lumped into a group based on what are usually superficial characteristics. Thanks for the clarification.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Just being me:

The common sense is in knowing (one must learn something that in known - so still education, be it social, family) to NOT try to solve the problem in the heat of the moment. Most politicians don’t exercise common sense because they govern based on polls. Bush saw his approval level fall so he REACTED to the emotion. There is also a level of common sense that comes through analysis(critical thinking/synthisizing), but that analysis does not necessarily have to be done by EXPERTS (but one needs to know ENOUGH to assess the issue - which is what a court law considers an EXPERT). Common sense in this instance is knowing that the response by the federal government initially in the Katrina disaster was probably as timely and effective as possible given the magnitude of the disaster and the resources available. That is the reality, but the President is acting out of the PERCEPTION that the problem was bigger than it actually was (bc he is a schooled man without any common sense).

You stated also: It is like what the democrats do. Somebody gets shot with a handgun, well we have to get rid of ALL handguns. It is over the top.

Which brings us to the stereotyping issue; which IS undeniably the opposite of common sense: its what you do out of reaction coupled with lack of education (knowing every democrat).

Is that not what we just learned?

By Jack

September 16, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

Off the subject but I watched “Ray” the other night. Jamie Foxx deserved that oscar.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

Hells bells! I wrote this long question for you all asking why you think just longevity in relationships is so highly valued; it got lost somehow. Just because it’s long doesn’t mean it’s good. I believe in divorce. It’s one of the best things in my life!

By taboga

September 16, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

Taboga - Common sense is not a prereq to being smart. Or maybe your thinking a different kind of smart. A naturally smart person, you might be right, but someone that is well educated and learned through schooling, that statement I don’t think would apply.

A “naturally” smart person - is the only kind. Things that are “learned through schooling” is called: Knowledge. You can’t school your way to being “smart” - you either have it, or you don’t. And if you don’t - you never will either.

By Jack

September 16, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Lozen. Divorce is way too easy these days. Get in an arguement, get a divorce. The hell with the children.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

The Ted Koppel special on New Orleans last night seemed to show that lack of communication (the electricity and phones were all out) was the reason for all the craziness in N.O. Some people tried to walk out only to be turned back to the Superdome which already held thousands with no toilets, no water, no food, and no AC. People were moved around from one bad place to another. The flood waters came in so quickly and people didn’t have any way to find out what was going on. It’s wrong to act as if those poor people were stupid and deserve what happened to them. But we never have to worry about Taboga stopping to consider how little he really knows, do we? Chuck, you are a bundle of suppressed antisocial tendencies. It is frightening that someone like you is in the classroom with our children.

By Jack

September 16, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

Before I am crucified, I do think that in some cases such as spouse/child/sexual abuse, divorce is warranted. In a lot of cases it is used as an easy way out. See Hollywood.

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

FatMoose: I think your comment was meant to be addressed to someone else?? I didn’t get in the common sense or democrat/republican discussion… my comment was about stereotyping.

By Renee

September 16, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

Jack….yes he did!!!!!!!! I saw it at the movies and bought the DVD, he did a phenomenal job!

By Scott

September 16, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Jack - So it’s good, huh? I have been meaning to rent it because I love the music of Ray Charles and heard it was a great movie. Just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

Lozen - I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience with “religion” in your lifetime. I do, however, know many people who have had their lives enriched by their faith (not to be confused with religion) This makes them neither ignorant or stupid, it is simply another facet of them. Watching some of the degree waving on here does show me, however, that the religious do not have the market cornered on self-righteous piety

By taboga

September 16, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

Lozen figured it all out! After almost 3 weeks of Katrina hysteria - Lozen finally wrapped her arms around the problem: “Electricity and phones were out”.

Lozen, do you mean to tell us that a catagory 5 hurricane stomped down on New Orleans - and they lost power?

Now, let’s get back to this “common sense” thing. Most folks with it, understand that category 5 hurricanes will normally take out the power in the area that it hits - it happens almost every single time. And it usually goes without saying, that the loss of electricity will cause numerous “communications” problems.

But congratulations to you on your recent discovery…

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

JBM, Sorry, that post was for chuck.

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

JACK - Jamie sure did deserve it! And, so did Denzel for Hurricane…

Separation and/or marital counselling should be mandatory for couples seeking divorce (if no cheating/abuse took place) - especially if there are children.

By taboga

September 16, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

BTW - For all of you who are wondering what “common sense” and “intelligence” is - you need to pay attention to Chuck’s posts. He has plenty of both and you folks might learn something - if you have enough “common sense” to pay attention.

By Dusty

September 16, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

Lozen, since I am being sweet today I will answer your question.

Long term relationships last because they have indispensable love and consideration. I will vouch for that.

As to short term, ask Monica Kaufman. She is preparing for her fourth marriage and should be a better authority on the subject.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

tab,

Right. The knowledge of power outages = communication problems is common sense.

And our commander in cheif had NO IDEA of this being a potential problem: Hence he has no common sense.

I agree totally.

By Tim

September 16, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

Jack… he definitely did deserve it… he is featured in Kanye West’s new song ‘Gold Digger’… he is singing an old Ray Charles song and I honestly did not know it was not Ray Charles until at the end of the song the dj said ‘that’s Kanye West featuring Jaime Foxx’… I was blown away… it was awesome

By chuck

September 16, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Actually Lozen, I’m one of the most personable, likeable people you will NEVER meet. You won’t ever meet me because I don’t hang out in divorce recovery meetings because I love my wife and would never consider leaving her. You won’t see me because I don’t hang out in bars. I love life too much to ruin it with alcohol. I think maybe you can’t enjoy life without a good snort every 20-30 minutes. You won’t see me because I don’t hang out with the low-life, America hating, intellectual wannabe losers who have nothing better to do than sit around complaining about their lives and their country while doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO MAKE IT BETTER.

I on the other hand am busy in public service teaching kids to be responsible citizens…to take care of the environment in a common sense way…to love their country and serve its people…to learn from our mistakes and to leave the world a better place than they found it.

You can frame it any way you like it, but the vast majority of the people who were stil in NO at the time of Katrina were there because they chose to be. The ones who were sent back to the dome were sent back for their own safety because they had waited too long to try to leave. The dome was a horrific place to be because those people chose to be predatory rather than treating each other humanely and because it was abandoned by the NO police. Why didn’t that happen in Mississippi and other parts of LA? Because the people who stayed behind in NO were lowlifes, content to live off of the misery of others.

Character is what you do when nobody is watching. These people revealed their character as did those in Miss. who helped each other and took care of each other. You don’t need the Federal government to do that.

By Renee

September 16, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

I know Tim. Jamie did his thing on that song. He sounds just like Ray Charles.

By Maggie

September 16, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

I read some statistics which indicated that only approximately 10% of National Guard troops are in Iraq. While I believe FEMA is partly at fault, the Mayor and Governor are at the top of the blame heap. Liberal Democrats always want to blame President Bush for everything. Get over it.

By Tim

September 16, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Renee… I was absolutely blown away! when I got home I downloaded it from itunes… he is just too good!

By dee

September 16, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

From taboga: in case you haven’t heard, one of the “victims� here in Atlanta, used her “relief� money to buy Louis Vuitton luggage! Of course, I guess, when you’re living out of a suitcase so to speak - you deserve the best. Being a “victim� and all, that is.

Even if they go back ten times, it still wouldn’t equal the amount of money we’ve invested in Afghanistan, Iraq, Florida, Delta, SSN, and junk bonds.

By Jack

September 16, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Dee. Bless your heart. What does taking advantage of a disaster have to do with the war on terror?

By Opinions

September 16, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Anybody who fraudentally takes advantage of charity or government agencies as a result of a natural disaster is a terrorist and should be sent to Guantanamo Bay.

By Whiley

September 16, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

OK, what have I missed this week ?, there is much reading to be done here to catch up. :)

By Opinion

September 16, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Liberal Democrats always want to blame President Bush for everything

While that is probably very true, it seems there are alot of Republicans in Congress who seriously question the whole slowness of the Federal response as well.

By Michael H.

September 16, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Scott,

Yes, typos are easily missed, I understand, probably have one or two in this post. However, I do not see the issue as a matter of merely gaining the approval of other nations, though it is foolish to throw our weight around in the world and ignore what the citizens of other countries with the same political values think. Especially when we hear so much rhetoric from our current leadership about “freedom and democracy.â€? I also see no evidence of people “spending way too much time asking around for opinions.â€? The attitude among the American citizenry as a whole and the current political leadership with its “old Europeâ€? mentality is quite the opposite. Most Americans are parochial and know little of the cultures, geography, or politics of the larger world, Western and non-Western. It’s a sad, sociological fact.

We had a man elected president in 2000 who is the personification of this ignorant attitude, a man who famously could not name the prime ministers of Canada, India, or Pakistan, or their political parties or views, and surveys show that only a minority of Americans can find Afghanistan on a map, a country we occupy. Bush’s advisors were still tutoring him as to the difference between the Sunni and Shiite Muslims on the eve of the invasion of Iraq and we see how well the current occupation is going.

And while I wouldn’t argue that it is possible to model the U.S. on the European welfare states but the considerable success the European Union has created is certainly worthy of attention and it receives none. Given you’re an open-minded person you would probably enjoy T. R. Reid, of the Washington Post’s book on the EU, The United States of Europe.

Lozen,

Yes, Chuck is obsessed isn’t he? (I kicked his a$$ so badly in the posts a few months ago he is still smarting.) He is one of those conservative cyber vigilantes who is rather scary and the reason that I adopt pseudonyms to avoid them. Probably has one of those “from my cold dead fingers� stickers next to his Bush 04 sticker on his pickup truck.

Thanks for your defense but I don’t much care what these clowns think, but I may have missed the posts in which you discussed a study you participated in or read. Could you tell me more about it or direct me to your earlier post if you have already given a description?

By Opinion

September 16, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

Whiley - you have missed nothing. more of Fascists vs. Commies. Nothing new.

By CB

September 16, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

Chuck all you are busy doing is being full of st…you’ve made enough comments previously to prove you don’t really care about all the citizens of the country and you’ve made plenty of anti-environmental comments as well…ahole!

I’m still curious if you teach at Coile Middle School…do you?

By lozen

September 16, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Chuck you are making an awful lot of assumptions about who I am, aren’t you? I don’t hang out in divorce recovery, take a snort every 20 minutes, hang out in bars or with losers, or sit around complaining doing nothing. But you are really good at making your assumptions about people aren’t you? You weren’t in New Orleans and you can’t make assumptions about the character of the majority of people who got caught up in that crisis either. But you will; you choose to talk about them as if they all were criminals when a small percentage were predatory. And I’d just love to hear your wife’s side of the story!

By dee

September 16, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

From Jack :Dee. Bless your heart. What does taking advantage of a disaster have to do with the war on terror?

I didn’t know Iraq terrorized us. I thought it was the other way ‘round.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Lozen - I have a feeling her side of the story would sound a lot like his. People like that tend to marry from the same pack.

By Jack

September 16, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Bless your heart.

By Scott

September 16, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

Michael H It seems as if Europe is somewhat divided on the subject on whether or not to supposrt America, or at least its leadership is (England, Spain, Italy) though I would not want to venture a guess as to why that is the case. Though I suspect it has a great deal to do with many of the same reasons that nations such as France, Germany, and Russia (though I realize they are not exactly European) oppose it. Our actions, their support or opposition has nothing to do with a sense or morality, regardless of the rhetoric. It has much more to do with economic power. Man, do I wish that we would put an alternative fuel source into widespread manufacture/use so that we did not have to depend on oil any longer. Which would make that part of the world a million square miles of useless desert. Personally, I do not think we should throw our weight around with a rifle in one hand and a checkbook in the other. I would much rather we balance our own budget, take care of our own people, pay off our foreign debt (either by paying it or canceling out mutal debt) and trade equitably or not at all. I would think it would be better to deal with those with tolerance and respect those who deal with us in kind. If I repeatedly derided you in one breath but asked you for assistance with the other, I think you would ignore me rather quickly. We have plenty of problems in this country without involving oursleves in every single squabble in the world.

I have heard of the work, but not read it yet (my wife may kill me for buying another book as I have so many as is…but oh well) What is the focus and premise of the book?

By RF

September 16, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Weeeeelllll, shoot, gosh-darn, and shucks! Mikey I jes’ didn’t know we was soooo stoopid here in these United States. Mebbe I oughta take the time to get all citified and smart like you’ins!!

Honestly Michael it’s nothing personal, but I just don’t see how Europe has it so much better than we do. This country was founded by a bunch of people who had been severely oppressed by European elitists. How would it make us better to be more like them now? Oh yes, I love and have been to much of Europe several times, and as wonderful as it is to visit, I don’t think I’d like paying what the folks in London are paying for gas right now. But they’re smarter, right?

Fun debate and nothing personal!

By Scalia

September 16, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

As always kiddies, it’s been fun. I look forward to the same drivel, useless arguments, and name calling next week. It’s a pleasant distraction from real life.

Have a good weekend, and watch some college football and some NFL. I look forward to all of the spandex clad booty, Joey Harrington being one of my favorites.

By Blog Police

September 16, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

JACK - Don’t be so condescending.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

FatMoose, I like you better all the time. A friend called to tell me “the devil and hell” was on but I don’t have cable and couldn’t see it. You say you try to emulate Jesus? That’s fantastic. With most of these so-called Xtians on here you’d never know Jesus is who they’re supposed to be following. They’d rather reach waaaaay back for god the punishing judge of the old testament than think about what Jesus taught. If being gay is such a big sin, why didn’t Jesus say anything about it? He spoke about adultery, being a good samaritan, doing unto others as you’d have them do unto you, looking at your own sins before you judge others, and said the kingdom of heaven is within you. Why didn’t he say anything about being gay?

By Jack

September 16, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

Lets see your badge.

By dee

September 16, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

From Opinions: Anybody who fraudentally takes advantage of charity or government agencies as a result of a natural disaster is a terrorist and should be sent to Guantanamo Bay.

So should anyone who fraudentally lie on their tax returns, refuse to serve their country in the military, don’t vote, rape their companies pension funds, misappropriate federal funds, mislead an entire country into a war………

By Jack

September 16, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Dee. Do you think the looters should be free to take whatever they want without fear of punishment?

By Opinions

September 16, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Dee, sounds good. We could ship all the Cubans to further south and use the whole island as a penal colony.

By Scott

September 16, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Blog Police if you are ournding up people for being condescending on here, you’re going to need help

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Lozen - There is something in the bible about being gay. Unfortunately I don’t have my bible here at work to point you to the reference. God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are one in the same (according to my beliefs, I know different denominations believe different things with that). But believe that or not, what Jesus taught and said is what God taught and said. The old testimate is a bit stricter than the new but it’s still the same God speaking.

God the punishing judge Need to read teh book of Nahem before making that assumption that Jesus was not a punisher.

By taboga

September 16, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Michael H,

What are the differences between the Sunnis and the Shiites? And what should President Bush have done differently in regards to each of them?

By chuck

September 16, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

My wife wouldn’t waste her time trying to convince you of anything Lozen, but I’ve always been the type to tilt at windmills. As for making assumptions pitiful little girl, I don’t have to. I watched them for myself on news reports. I read about them in newspapers and I talked to the students whose parents had enough sense to get them out of there and are now in my school. I’ve raised personally over $1500.00 to help them get clothes, school supplies and other things so that they can make the adjustment to a new school.

These students told me that they were warned countless times of the danger and their parents got them out of there. I know that there are some who could not get out. I’m livid that those nursing home owners left over 30 patients there to die. They ought to be fried. Those are tragedies that could have been avoided and I am not talking about them.

I don’t understand how anyone who on the surface appears to be a strong, independent, intelligent woman such as yourself could have such a limited point of reference when it comes to stupidity. How many times would you have to be told to get out? Are you telling me that you could not have figured out how to get out of NO even if you were poor, even if you didn’t own a car, even if you were in poor but still ambulatory health? If you are saying that, then you are not as smart as I thought you were. But…if you think YOU COULD have figured it out, then you are either being condescending toward those left there OR you are admitting that they are stupid.

Why is it that those of you who scream so much about government interference in your lives (i.e. making drugs illegal so you can’t light up when you want to) are so anxious to give the government the role of controlling every aspect of life for the poor (gov’t housing, food stamps, welfare, schools etc.)? Maybe if I framed it this way you could understand where I am coming from…Those who COULD get out and didn’t are STUPID. Does that make you feel any better Wendy Whiner?

CB, …and the horse you rode in on. BTW I know Coach Kirby quite well.

By dee

September 16, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

From Maggie: I read some statistics which indicated that only approximately 10% of National Guard troops are in Iraq. While I believe FEMA is partly at fault, the Mayor and Governor are at the top of the blame heap. Liberal Democrats always want to blame President Bush for everything. Get over it.

I think the Mayor and the Governor just got into office. I think the past leaders of the state, the levee board and the city are to blame for ignoring what could happen in the event of a Class 4 hurricane.

By lozen

September 16, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

RF, You get all upset at anything MichaelH says but Chuck the blowhard and Taboga the idiot of idiots don’t upset you? Yes, people throughout Europe thought people in the u.s. who voted for GWB were stupid. They’re entitled to their opinion; and besides they were right! Remember - 15th in the western world for our quality of education…. I guess you would turn down that six to eight weeks of vacation everyone gets in most european countries too. They do have much more time to think and reflect. Do people in Europe listen to Rush Limbaugh, pat robertson or jerry falwell? I dont’ think so.

By dee

September 16, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

From Jack: Dee. Do you think the looters should be free to take whatever they want without fear of punishment?

No of course not!! Stealing televisions, (especially when there is no electricity) in front of the TV cameras is stupid and DESERVES punishment!!! Stealin bread and water because you are hungry just makes “common sense”.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

Nice that we do not butt heads on all subject;)

What I believe is meant by “sin” is not black or white; but a greyscale of ‘this action is the easier road so watch yourself’ notions. On the ends may be black and white, but the majority is not absolute.

Hence, when considering one being gay - and what it means as far as sin; I find that there must be lessons learned in a yin/yang relationship (male/female or maybe vv) that a yin/yin does not provide. And those lessons are needed to grow; but are available in other ways - although not as inherent and therefore may need to be sought out. Coming back to why it is not the most “efficient” path.

I have a pretty complex belief system that I have yet to find contradicting the word of jesus; but that is an ongoing process now isnt it;)

By Alabama

September 16, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

MONTGOMERY - When Category 4 Hurricane Dennis threatened the Alabama coast in July, Gov. Bob Riley ordered the mandatory evacuation of all of Mobile and most of Baldwin counties 48 hours ahead of landfall.

When Category 5 Hurricane Katrina threatened the Big Easy, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin issued a mandatory evacuation of the below-sea-level city 20 hours before landfall.

Does this connote a little bit of incompetence on someone’s part?

By Jack

September 16, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

We agree on that one Dee!

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Dee…. To this comment “Stealin bread and water because you are hungry just makes “common senseâ€?.” I had to laugh out loud just from the use of “common sense”.

By Tim

September 16, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

yin/yang relationship (male/female or maybe vv)

FatMoose have you been reading the Davinci Code lol

By Netbanker

September 16, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

Lozen…I think that people assume that long lived relationships are healthy ones and hopefully they are. I certainly don’t value mine simply for an increasing number nor would I ever encourage anyone to stay in a bad or unhappy relationship just because of the length of time they’ve been together. There is something to be said for longevity of relationships and I think it was summed up quite nicely by Billy of 6 Feet Under when he said something along the lines of “The older you become the fewer people there are who really get you and remember you when you were young.”

Have a good weekend everyone! I’m off to the last meeting of the day and then home. I do have a quick request for a few prayers…we’re waiting for test results today to tell us if my partner has ulcers or stomach cancer.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

Chuck,

You either missed my response to you or ignored it bc of your issues. We will try again to see…

The common sense is in knowing (one must learn something that in known - so still education, be it social, family) to NOT try to solve the problem in the heat of the moment. Most politicians don’t exercise common sense because they govern based on polls. Bush saw his approval level fall so he REACTED to the emotion. There is also a level of common sense that comes through analysis(critical thinking/synthisizing), but that analysis does not necessarily have to be done by EXPERTS (but one needs to know ENOUGH to assess the issue - which is what a court law considers an EXPERT). Common sense in this instance is knowing that the response by the federal government initially in the Katrina disaster was probably as timely and effective as possible given the magnitude of the disaster and the resources available. That is the reality, but the President is acting out of the PERCEPTION that the problem was bigger than it actually was (bc he is a schooled man without any common sense).

You stated also: It is like what the democrats do. Somebody gets shot with a handgun, well we have to get rid of ALL handguns. It is over the top.

Which brings us to the stereotyping issue; which IS undeniably the opposite of common sense: its what you do out of reaction coupled with lack of education (knowing every democrat).

Is that not what we just learned?

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Tim,

Nope. Never cracked a page of it.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Netbanker - You’ve got my prayers!

By Tim

September 16, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Netbanker… y’all will definitely be in my prayers!

By Scott

September 16, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Yes, people throughout Europe thought people in the u.s. who voted for GWB were stupid. They’re entitled to their opinion; and besides they were right

A measure of a man’s intelligence is often in direct proportion to how much he agrees with you

By RF

September 16, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

For some reason Lozen, I don’t find Chuck as consistently irritating. Like I told Michael, it’s nothing personal. It’s just his tone and attitude toward the “less educated” among us. Just my opinion—which is worth about the same as Delta stock when you get right down to it.

I suppose many in Europe are happy or happier than many here. They have problems and social issues in many countries there. If not, give it time and they will. The US of A ain’t perfect, but I personally find it rather pleasant to live here, and have since the year my dear sweet momma birthed me. Sure, there are problems. But I have found in my life that happiness is what you choose, not what the political majority of the times seems to represent. Lighten up, we’ll probably put a dem in the White House next election, and then Rush and the Boys will be whining.

Have a great weekend and thanks for the interesting, irritating, humorous, informative, and otherwise wacky debate!!

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

FatMoose - I wanted to ask this before the day is over. (thank GOODNESS it’s getting close to 5!) How is Moose doing?

By Jack

September 16, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Here’s a good one. (and true too)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer to the end you get, the faster it goes.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

Bridges,

Moose’s condition was odd last night. He really wanted to eat, but after two bites it made him gag (he did not puke, but looked as though he ate something bitter) - so he has some level of appitite. Also, his jaundice is not as bad as it was when we took him (and brought back) from the vet.

Hopefully it is good stuff, but is not indicative of getting healthy.

Did you notice much wax/wane in your cat while ill? My only comparison is when my dad died of lung cancer. He had some wax/waning through his process - and if Moose has liver cancer, the toxins occasionally released could emulate what I am seeing in him…

Thanks for asking! I really appriciate it.

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Completely off topic (well..what isn’t right?) but does this not make anyone else sick?

MSN news - “Spears was surrounded by eight burly bodyguards when she was admitted to a maternity suite, which was purportedly made pop starlet-friendly with the addition of big-screen TVs and sofa beds. “Access” says the hospital accommodations set Spears back $20,000 a night, including extra rooms for her family and security. Also on hand: a private chef in a nearby kitchen.”

I have NO problems with her wanting body gaurds for whatever reason but those extra rooms that were put up for family was just a waste of space that someone much more needing of it could have been!!

By Netbanker

September 16, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

thanks guys! He just called and it’s ulcers! I never thought I’d be so happy to hear someone has ulcers, but given the alternative it’s the best news I’ve heard in a year that has been really sh*y so far.

By Renee

September 16, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Netbanker sorry to hear that, my prayers will be with you!

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

That’s good that he’s showing interest in food! I think I bought atleast 50 cans of food and threw away about as much trying to find something Sabrina would eat.

The jaundice scared me the most. I couldn’t believe how yellow she had gotten. It always made me wonder if I had noticed it sooner…

I’m not sure what wax/wane is. Give me a little description and I might can tell you.

By Renee

September 16, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Bridges, that is ridiculous, just sickening

By Renee

September 16, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

If she needed all that she should have had the baby at home and brought a staff to her house.

By Scott

September 16, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Netbanker - never thought Iwould say this, but congrats on the ulcers…that is much better news

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Netbanker - I’m sorry that it has been a bad year so far for you. I am glad to hear that it’s ulcers. That can be controlled through diet right?

Coming from a cancer surviver, count your blessings!

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Renee - my thoughts exactly.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Bridges,

wax/wane = ebb/flow = getting better/then getting worse

I will post a pic of Moose on webshots or my salt aquarium page for you to check out next week. Moose is a yellow/cream colored cat, so I am surprised we even noticed - his ears/lips gave it away.

By Dusty

September 16, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Poor babies! You run around talking about Pres. Bush not having common sense, starting hurricanes, blowing holes in levees, stoking the old rumor mill. Yet not one of you could get a single vote from a dozen people even if you passed out gold pieces. American people voted TWICE and elected George W. Bush each time. They saw his value.

If you despise the president and see nothing good in our country, why are you here? Are you an American or not? You will probably say that you hate it but you love it. That is a rediculous premise that does not work anywhere. Just because you can abuse free speech does not make you a good citizen. It usually shows that you are a poor loser.

By taboga

September 16, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

So what’s wrong with Spears paying for hospital rooms? Were there people lying around on the floor in the halls that needed them?

By Blog Police

September 16, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

NETBANKER - Congratulations on the (relatively) good news. Your partner will be in my prayers for his complete and total healing.

By taboga

September 16, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

FatMoose,

What does your cat eat and how often does it go litter?

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

FatMoose - Oh oh..gotcha. She did a pretty good bit of it to begin with. She would eat good and then stop. After putting a feeding tube in it looked good and she responded really well but her activity didn’t increase any and then she completely collapsed. Her vet did say after a week that she didn’t respond within the amount of time they would have liked with the feeding tube so we knew she wasn’t doing good. She never fooled me. What I mean is, you know how sometimes they can get better and it seems everything is just fine and then bam! She didn’t get that ‘glo’ back about her.

She was solid black so I’m really surprised I didn’t notice.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

tab,

The topic is that my cat is NOT eating. Using the litterbox means nothing - especially when nothing is ‘expressed.’

By buildingbridges

September 16, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Taboga - what happened to you as a child that made you SO … I don’t even have a word. You are so far off your rocker it’s not even funny.

To everyone else! have a great weekend!!

By Jack

September 16, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

My dog used to eat all of the cat-poo that was in the litter box. Talk about bad breath!

By Tim

September 16, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

everyone have a wonderful weekend… Netbanker… that is great news considering the circumstances :)

By Netbanker

September 16, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Thanks all for the support. Ulcers are usually caused by bacterial infection so I think there will be a course of antibiotics, but diet will also come into play. Thank goodess the doc and nutritionist get to deliver those messages because I gave up years ago trying to get the man to eat his fruits and veggies.

Bridges…you are one brave individual! I spent a year between financial gigs at the national headquarters of the American Cancer Society. I met some really amazing people during that time and have a great deal of respect for anyone who has survived cancer treatments.

While it has been a tough year even when things get bad I tell myself it could always be worse. Hey, compared to gulf coast residents my life is still a walk in the park and even without that all I need to do is read the news to realize that there are plenty of others who have it worse.

By FatMoose

September 16, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Take care all.

Dusty, Tab, Chuck - play in the road, you will like it!

By Michael H.

September 16, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Scott,

We certainly agree that we should seek an alternate fuel source to the polluting, non-renewable fossil fuels that we have to import but the only thing which will force that is a sustained high price from market pressures on the supply. And that is likely to continue since the demand from China is not likely to abate any time soon. It is amazing that when Carter called the need for energy conservation the moral equivalent of war we were only importing 19% of our crude oil and now it is nearly 70%. The first thing that Reagan did when he moved into the White House was to have the solar heating panels installed by Carter removed to send the political message that we need be concerned with such matters. And now almost three decades later Americans are back to gas guzzling, polluting vehicles like SUVs and large trucks.

Actually, I do think that the European dislike of Bush, not so much America, is based very much on moral criteria or concerns. There is a fair bit of social science research on global attitudes towards the United States, especially by the Pew Trust people. Almost all of the European countries signed the Kyoto accords while Bush refused saying it was not in our national interest. Europeans, in general, believe that the war in Iraq was unjustified, that the United States is not showing respect for human rights in the maintaining the Guantotomo facility, the Abu Gahrib prison scandal in Iraq, and the “extraordinary rendition� of suspected terrorists from other countries are all unfitting of a democratic country. One is certainly free to disagree with them, but nonetheless, these are moral objections. Furthermore, Europeans, and most other people across the globe were appalled at the response to the New Orleans crisis and the way they saw poor people treated. They are appalled at the poverty amidst our abundance, the use of the death penalty, and widespread inequalities. Again, one may disagree, but these are the moral concerns, not monetary issues.

Reid argues that post-war Europe has achieved is revolutionary, that they have moved from centuries of recurring wars, to a stable peace. They introduced a new currency in the Euro which is the strongest currency in the world, made college education free, health care universal, and have become economic rivals to the United States with most Americans not even realizing it. The EU is the largest market in the world and both Jack Welch and GE, or Bill Gates and Microsoft have to accept European consumer law and courts and follow their edicts. And they own a considerable number of large businesses in the United States, even such American institutions as Burger King. Reid gives lots of interesting details as well as an engaging history of what is hard to imagine as an engaging topic, the development of the EU and its bureaucracy. The assumed economic supremacy of the United States is in jeopardy, especially with our pouring over 30% of our taxes into the military while Europe just puts their money into a public infrastructure which makes their quality of life better.

The latest “quality of life� index by the United Nations (which means that most conservatives will not bother with it) ranked Norway first, followed by Sweden, Canada, and Australia. The conservative Economist magazine did their own index and didn’t put the United States in the top ten. I don’t agree with the later assessment of the Economist, but I have been in or lived in each of the first four countries and I certainly agree with placing them above the U.S. Of course, what constitutes “quality of life� is a matter of values. But I agree with the UN that educational level, income level, access to health care, poverty levels, and crime rates are pretty good measures.

Here is a joke I heard in a discussion of Reid’s book, one which will really annoy many people who post here.

An American says to a European we are the better country because we work all the time and let everybody fiend for themselves and pay for a military to fight the world’s wars. The European says you have an amusing definition of “better.�

Lozen, My God, you mean that Chuck is a teacher in a middle school! Jesus.

By Renee

September 16, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Jack, my dog does that too, I don’t know what the deal is with that, it’s just gross.

By Just Being Me

September 16, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

Everyone have a great weekend.

BB - There’s one on every blog.

By Owl

September 16, 2005 05:06 PM | Link to this

An American says to a European we are the better country because we work all the time and let everybody fiend for themselves and pay for a military to fight the world’s wars. The European says you have an amusing definition of “better.�

Vote from one who LOVES that joke. So true.