AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2005 > August > 25 > Entry
Are anti-war protests discouraged today?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
The First Amendment gives us the freedom to dissent. But you’d think bereaved mother Cindy Sheehan committed an act of treason by camping out in front of President Bush’s vacation ranch in Crawford, Texas.
The public has little tolerance these days for protests that last longer than a commercial break. And they have even less patience for critiques aimed at our commander in chief.
In the case of Sheehan, many believe: She already met with the President once. A second request is simply unreasonable.
Sheehan admits in a recent interview her protest ended an already shaky marriage with a husband who disagreed with its “intensity”. But what (or who) defines the degree to which someone can peacefully protest?
The civil rights movement succeeded through unrelenting pressure. Women’s rights were gained by rebelling against the status quo. Our country’s founders declared independence over unjust taxes. And yet lately, it seems the American public no longer tolerates dissent. The mainstream media is more interested in pacifying, and nearly satisfying, everyone. Anyone challenging the status quo is quickly labeled a “special interest” or “insurgent”.
Country music stars feel compelled to apologize for remarks about the President. Any woman daring to call herself a “feminist” is labeled “radical”. And Sheehan’s peaceful protest is insincere says commentator Bill O’Reilly. But there is nothing outrageous about a musician having a personal opinion, with women wanting equal rights or with a grieving mother’s objections to the Iraq war.
There is, however, something troubling, if not absurd, about a public that has little tolerance for disagreement on issues they actually agree on. Fifty-three percent of Americans do not believe the Iraq war was worthwhile according to a recent Gallup poll.
Maybe political correctness has gone too far. It’s time to get our rally caps on or at least allow others this liberty.
Sheehan has the right to protest just as President Bush has the right to drive by without comment. Because dissent is part of a long, healthy legacy of rebellion in American history, a tradition of defiance that shaped our culture and remains the cornerstone of any democracy, whether here or in a country we’re fighting to change.
Rebuttal
Sometimes I wonder … are Diane and I watching coverage of the same event? Are we looking at the same “mainstream media?”
Far from losing patience with Sheehan’s Crawford, Texas war protest, far from censoring it or catering to short attention spans, the media has fanned the flames. Combine a slow news month, a Congress in recess, a vacationing president and a bored Crawford news corps whose members largely think the Iraq war was a mistake anyway. Blend those ingredients together and voila! You have a recipe for a massive amount of media attention to a very small group of people demanding an immediate Iraq exit … when that is not what most Americans want. According to a recent Pew Research poll, just forty-three percent of us want troops home right away. Most Americans recognize that the job is hard; it requires sacrifices, but it needs to be done.
Now, how does that square with the Gallup poll Diane mentions, which appears to show the reverse opinion? Well, here’s the thing: the Gallup poll is media-sponsored — by CNN and USA Today. And their questions were unbelievably leading; almost guaranteed to generate anti-Iraq responses. For example, this beauty: “In view of the developments since we first sent our troops to Iraq, do you think the United States made a mistake in sending troops to Iraq, or not?”
Noted survey-design expert Chuck Cowan, Managing Partner of Analytic Focus agreed that, “The wording has major flaws. It might as well have asked: ‘In light of all the screw-ups recently, is the Iraq war a mistake?’” By contrast, the independent Pew Research poll — simply asking whether military action in Iraq was the right or wrong decision — found the opposite conclusion to Gallup, with just 44 percent saying it was wrong.
I grieve for Sheehan and others who have lost loved ones. And one thing those fallen soldiers were fighting for is a free country that welcomes dissent. I may disagree with the protestors, but support their right to have their say. My quarrel starts when the press so obviously contributes to the dispute instead of reporting on it.
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 07:25 AM | Link to this
For the megabillionth time, Liberals must be reminded that no one is trying to deny Cindy Sheehan or anyone else - the right to protest.
The disagreement involves what she is protesting about, not the protesting itself.
Try as hard as you may to suggest that someone wants to deny the lunatic her right to protest - but it simply isn’t so.
By David
August 29, 2005 07:39 AM | Link to this
Let her protest all she wants. She started with sympathetic comments, but after non-stop running of her mouth she ended up saying way too many outlandish statements that hurt her entire credibility.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 07:46 AM | Link to this
I notice Shuanti didn’t really answer the question, instead devoting most of her energy to defending the war. The question is whether antiwar protestors are being discouraged, not whether you agree with them.
And Sheehan is being attacked to an unprecedented level as the neocons, under fire and losing ground, dig in their heels and start whining even louder. The WTO protestors in Seattle didn’t get this much hatred and bile directed at them—not just from right-wing radio drones, but from public officials as well.
This whole “dissent is treason” thing is a smokescreen… thankfully, one that most Americans are smart enough to see through. And if you’re not smart enough, well—the Republicans have a nice slot open for you in the legislature. Maybe you’ll even get a chance to vote against healthcare and job security!
By Fernando Caballero
August 29, 2005 07:53 AM | Link to this
Ms. Glass,
Many so called “protesters� like James Branch Cabell that both envision and perhaps secretly desire that many die on the streets of America, certainly do not qualify him and others to be named a Patriot(s). You see Mr. Cabell wrote the following in an editorial response:
“I can envision bands of Christian Fundamentalist death squads roaming the East and West coasts of the U.S. searching out openly gay and lesbian people, Unitarians, French chefs, “Hollywood types,” poets, writers, artists, evolutionary biologists and anyone else who they feel is an “elite.”â€?
People spewing out inane diatribes and hatred do not qualify him or her to be named as “peaceful protest� dissenters let alone Patriots. I am not going to tell you who may or may not be called a peaceful protester. I however will side with those of real (genuine) peace and love. That is those “Christian Fundamentalist� that both pray for our leaders and stand by our military men and women “…come hell or high water�. People like Cindy Sheehan and Mr. Cabell spew out hatred towards people of faith and that includes those in my family. Hatred like this has no room in the discussion of who is the real protester. You see Ms. Glass what needs to be discouraged is not proper civil discourse with disagreements and protests but hate speech of the likes of Ms. Sheehan and others.
Regards, Fernando Caballero (404) 676-5351 Cabfam4@bellsouth.net Marietta, Georgia
By taboga
August 29, 2005 07:57 AM | Link to this
This whole “dissent is treason� thing is a smokescreen
No, actually it’s the “dissent is patriotic” that is the “smokescreen”.
By Heather
August 29, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this
Gentlemen, did you have a good weekend?
While I agree that we all have the right to protest, if everyone of us camped outside the President’s home until he gave us what we wanted, we would not have much of a government left.
I can’t get past the idea that she has been “seduced” by all of the attention and has let the situation get away from her a little bit. I also imagine there are people behind the scenes using her grief to further their own ends as well.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 08:18 AM | Link to this
Cindy Sheehan has not been arrested.
Cindy Sheehan has not been forced to stop.
Cindy Sheehan has been opposed by counter protesters and rebuttles from the group against she herself is protesting. I don’t believe any of that is discouragement, it is simply other groups refuting her protest.
What has happened is that her protest has gone on far too long and the public has grown weary with it.
Why did she not protest at the beginning of the Iraq war? Perhaps she did and we simply didn’t know about it. If so, shame on the media for only covering a protest when it is highlighted with the backdrop of a fallen soldier. To the best of my knowledge, she only protested AFTER she lost her son. What hypocrisy!
By taboga
August 29, 2005 08:21 AM | Link to this
Why is Cindy Sheehan’s protest being labled as an “Anti-war” protest, when it’s really an “Anti-Bush” protest?
Let’s call it what it is - then go from there…
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this
Actually, dissent IS patriotic. It’s among the most patriotic things you can do as a private citizen, when your government is doing something wrong.
But regardless of whether you agree or disagree with what Mrs. Sheehan is saying… she has the right to say it. (Even the submoronic taboga admitted that.) Dissent IS important—in fact, it’s Number One on our list of protected rights. (speech, press, assembly and petition… look it up).
There is nothing more important, or more powerful, than the right of individual, private citizens to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances. Complaints about how it might be “disruptive” are, as usual, conservative excuses for cowardice. But then, Bush himself IS a wimpy little coward, so that fits.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
Ken: So you’d prefer that, upon realizing she’d supported a mistake, that she continue supporting it? She’s not Bush, you know—she’s allowed to wise up and realize she was wrong.
By Whiley
August 29, 2005 08:25 AM | Link to this
Why didn’t she protest in front of her SON’S house before he joined the service??
By taboga
August 29, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this
Why didn’t she protest in front of her SON’S house before he joined the service??
Damn good point Whiley!
By Ben Skott
August 29, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
Sheehan has the right to protest all she wants, and the “general public” has the right to heap as much disdain and ridicule on her as they want. She has the right to protest, we have the right to counter-protest her nonsense. Or are you denying us the right to ridicule her, or not buy a country music stars’ album after they insult the President? Protesters seem to forget that just because they are protesting does not make them right.
By Bobb
August 29, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this
Everyone has the right to peacefully protest. With that right also comes the right of others to ignore you or publicly disagree with your position. The right to protest doesn’t shield you from counter protest, having your motives questioned, or having others express a desire for you to simply go away. It is naïve to expect everyone to stand back and let you speak unchallenged. Once you cross the line from private protest to making your ideas known in a very public way - like calling the president names and camping out in front of his private home - then you are in the big time and you better be able to take the heat.
From all appearances Sheehan can take the heat. It seems to be her supporters on the left who, as usual, are unable to accept criticism or opposing opinions and immediately upon being challenged make the issue into a question of someone’s rights being “attacked”. People have a right to want Sheehan to stop protesting. As long as they don’t forcibly try to stop her then her rights have not been violated.
Express your opinion all you want, but be prepared to duck. It’s called America, folks.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this
I see little Brian is back at it again. Sermonizing about “redress of grievances” and the like - a regular Mr. Constitution he is.
Truth is, the little Leftist couldn’t give a rat’s behind about any of that. He’d side with 2 monkeys throwing coconuts - if they were aimed a President Bush!
By Katrina
August 29, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this
The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming! And they named her KATRINA.
I repent, the conservatives are right.
The Russians are Coming.
By Lyrazel
August 29, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this
We will protest with our vote.
When Bush SR sent troops to Iraq he went off on vacation too. Like father like son. Was curious why GWB left the ranch for a big lodge in Idaho to continue his vacation then made a Photo Op…about Cindy. Odd he had to leave Texas for far away Idaho to tell Cindy she is wrong…odd but he is very cowardly in his PR…highschools, senior citizen Vets…all chosen audiences…choreographed by his honchos in the paid for by republicans media… Who can argue with the fact this war is being fought by military families without the support of regular Americans who find it very inconvienent to disrupt their lives for more than short blips of TV news. We have so distanced ourselves from this war. How many of the most vocal senators, vice presidents, representatives and governors have sons and daughters now serving in Iraq? 4/out of the slew of them. Doesnt really matter what Bush does…he can continue to live in his insulated bubble of denial that All Real Americans Support The Bush War. Republicans will loose House, Senate and next election because of the escalating costs and lives of continuing war in Iraq…the uber-religious conservative republican brilliant flash will be like a firecracker exploding in a toilet…down it goes….reeking havoc in sewage systems everywhere…Bush is determined to go down…guns blazing with the help of Tidy-Bowl Man Cheney….Enjoy your gas at $5.00/gallon in January…the best is yet to come!
By Archie
August 29, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this
The question is are anti-war protests discouraged? My answer is yes. Anti-war protests are discouraged but the protests do go on. Sheehan has the right to protest and people have the right to disagree with that protest. I don’t think she’s a hypocrite for protesting now that her son is dead. Her initial protest may have been different. Like many people she could have placed her name on a petition that was emailed to a congressman. People do have the right not to buy the records of country,rap,rock,etc if they don’t like the politics of that musician. It’s nonsense to suggest Sheehan protest in front of her son’s house before the war. What would she be protesting? Parents typically talk to their children not walk around in front of their houses. I have no idea of the point made with such a protest. Ms Sheehan is grieving and her protests are just a way she is expressing that grief in addition to the fact she doesn’t like Bush. That’s no different than 49 percent of America.
By Nancy
August 29, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
Part of what seems to be behind reaction to Sheehan’s action is that since before the war in Iraq started the media and the administration seemed to squelch people who were speaking against the war, so for a couple of years we have heard way too much on one side. The administration has “zapped” people, such as General Shinseki, who had different opinions than the one “official” one. I think in most matters, but particularly with something as weighty as war, we are a better society if we allow many viewpoints to be expressed.
By JD
August 29, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this
Here’s a protest for ya folks, good fine Christian people.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050828/D8C8JGIG0.html
By Katrina
August 29, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
big laugh over ‘God hates you’ in that article. Good ole fundies, gotta love ‘em. Gotta love people who SPEAK for God. wait, that’s the whole Bible.
By JD
August 29, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
Would you not agree, Everyone has a right to protest.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
Her son would not agree with what she is doing. He volunteered. Free food, free board, free education & RISK. The media are the vultures capitalizing on her grief.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this
It’s just another effort to shield poor, cowering little Georgie from the Big Bad people who disagree with him. He can’t take the heat that comes with being president, so he deploys a bunch of right-wing whiners and pundits to protect him. That’s why all his “public appearances” are carefully screened to only include supporters and those who explicitly agree to cheer for him.
What a wuss. Criticism comes with the job, Crybaby George. Suck it up and be a man instead of hiding from it and pouting about that darn ol’ media.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
Jack: And all he wanted in return was a competent commander who wouldn’t throw his life away on a pointless mission. I guess the government broke their end of the bargain, huh? Why shouldn’t she protest that?
By Bruce
August 29, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this
I think I heard last week that now she is actually taking her protest ON THE ROAD. Did anyone else hear that?
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 09:40 AM | Link to this
P.S. Jack, it’s impressive that you know what her dead son would want better than she does. Surely you should use your gift of communing with the dead for some noble purpose, yes?
By JD
August 29, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Your crazy, have you ever served? Nothing in the military is free. You earn every meal, every nights sleep, and every dollar the government pays in tuition. It’s definately a trade off, but free….hardly
By Steve
August 29, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this
Ms. Sheehan has a right to protest. And I (and others) have a right to say she is in the wrong. That is the beauty of living in America. Diane needs to get over it.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this
Kiss off JD. Seen more combat live than you have on TV.
By raylene
August 29, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this
I wish i could go protest with her. the military does nothing for their troops. jeezus they have to pay for their own uniforms. yes, they have to pay for them. you’d think that they would provide something like that. they even have to buy the pins and ribbons when they earn them. and they treat the veteran’s like crap. so i would like to protest not only the war, but the stupid military and our dumba$$ president.
By JD
August 29, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
Oh yah
By Ken
August 29, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
Brian… Of course people hav the right to change their mind, but I question what changed her mind? Is it the loss of her son (not a good reason) or her belief that the war was a good idea in the beginning and has been botched (a very good reason). So far I only see the former.
Her protest smacks of retaliation because she lost her son. That is a reason to GRIEVE not PROTEST. Her son volunteered for the armed forces, as has every other individual currently serving. She didn’t mind when her son received all of the benefits of military service, of which there are many.
I think it would be interesting to see what current military spouses Cindy Sheehan. I know what my cousin would say, who is the wife of a 20 year Marine. She would speak of Cindy Sheehan with disgust. She knows and understands the potential danger when her husband gets sent overseas (and he gone many times). To her, and all of the others directly involved, it is a fact of military life.
By hadenough?
August 29, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this
Please forgive the all caps…this movement is gathering steam…
IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED THAT IF EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA DID NOT PURCHASE A DROP OF GASOLINE FOR ONE DAY AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME, THE OIL COMPANIES WOULD CHOKE ON THEIR STOCKPILES.
AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HIT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY WITH A NET LOSS OF OVER 4.6 BILLION DOLLARS WHICH AFFECTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE OIL COMPANIES.
THEREFORE SEPTEMBER 1st HAS BEEN FORMALLY DECLARED “STICK IT UP THEIR BEHIND ” DAY AND THE PEOPLE OF THESE TWO NATIONS SHOULD NOT BUY A SINGLE DROP OF GASOLINE THAT DAY.
THE ONLY WAY THIS CAN BE DONE IS IF YOU FORWARD THIS E-MAIL TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN AND AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN TO GET THE WORD OUT.
WAITING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO STEP IN AND CONTROL THE PRICES IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REDUCTION AND CONTROL IN PRICES THAT THE ARAB NATIONS PROMISED TWO WEEKS AGO?
REMEMBER ONE THING, NOT ONLY IS THE PRICE OF GASOLINE GOING UP BUT AT THE
SAME TIME AIRLINES ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES, TRUCKING COMPANIES ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES WHICH EFFECTS PRICES ON EVERYTHING THAT IS SHIPPED. THINGS LIKE FOOD, CLOTHING, BUILDING MATERIALS, MEDICAL SUPPLIES ETC. WHO PAYS IN THE END? WE DO!
WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IF THEY DON’T GET THE MESSAGE AFTER ONE DAY, WE WILL DO IT
AGAIN AND AGAIN.
SO DO YOUR PART AND SPREAD THE WORD. FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW. MARK YOUR CALENDARS AND MAKE SEPTEMBER 1ST A DAY THAT THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA SAY “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH”
By JD
August 29, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
In Somalia, Kuwait, Iraq, F.U. Jack your wrong, no need to admit it just STFU.
By Tim
August 29, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
The question isn’t ‘Does Cindy Sheehan have the right to protest?’… the question is ‘Are anit-war protests discouraged today?’… I think it depends on what you are watching… and who you are listening to (I know such a profound statement sarcasm)
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this
Perry Jefferies served as a First Sergeant with the Army’s 4th Infantry Division in Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom. After deploying to Iraq and traveling with the cavalry through the Sunni Triangle, his unit moved to the Iran - Iraq border and set up Camp Caldwell, future home of the New Iraqi Army. Often frustrated by the absence of priority on planning and basic soldier needs, he has spoken out about the lack of basic necessities such as food, water, and repair parts. Previously a prison guard in Texas, he says that in many cases, soldiers are treated worse than the convicts he used to guard. (Copied from NOW/PBS website, interview not available).
In this interview with David Brancaccio, Sargeant Jeffries is asked how he feels about dissension in the United States regaring the war in Iraq, if he feels that it hurts the morale of the soldiers serving. He basically stated (I am paraphrasing, as I have not been able to locate the interview transcript) that this does not weaken the morale of soldiers, but rather strengthens it because it is one of the truly democratic ideals that this war is supposed to be bringing to the new Iraqi government.
He states that it is quite possible support the troops and be opposed to the war. Many of us were anti-war from the start due to lack of evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the attacks on 9/11. Some are currently prostesting the handling of this war, the lack of adequate equipment to our soldiers, but ponying up big money to support the contractors, whom many soldiers consider mercenaries. Some of us question the wisdom of tax breaks for the rich, while running up huge deficits to pay for an unnessary war. Some of us are protesting Rumsfeld’s performance in this so-called bid for democracy, the lack of troop numbers to secure the cities and insurgents, let alone the borders. Many protest out of sheer frustration (you know, like Pat Robertson, only without the threat of personal violence) because we don’t want our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan if this war administration is unwilling and/or incapable of giving them the tools they need to succeed. Some of us suspect that the administration purposfully created the chaos to make pulling out more difficult as folks began to wise up and the popularity polls for the war went down.
Soldiers enlist for various reasons. Ultimately they know that they may be asked to perform a job that they don’t agree with politically or ideologically, but they have underlying faith that the government that sends them to risk their lives is at least going to equip them properly and execute the war with some expertise. Putting a magnet on your car does nothing for them; holding the president and his administration accountable for their obligations and mistakes does more, but still not enough for the grieving families. Asking more to die because some have died is inexcusable.
The ignorance and lack of critical thinking people use to make the connection that not supporting the war is the same as not supporting the troops is truly astounding.
Cindy Sheehan’s son died in a battle fought to retaliate the deaths of four contractors who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. We’ve yet to retaliate against those responsible for the 3000+ WTC deaths due to this misguided diversion in Iraq. The president has admitted that he does not give much thought to getting Osama Bin Laden, that it is not a priority for him, yet none on the right have accused him of treason, let alone lunacy. And he has yet to tell us for what noble cause are our soldiers dying.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
If he was a good soldier, he would not agree with her protest or her statements. She has every right to protest. The rest of her family is not behind her. Her son would be embarrassed. Did you volunteer JD?
By Whiley
August 29, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this
What’s next? Mothers of Dekalb County police officers will start protesting ??? Soldiers are trained for war. War is hell. Isn’t it better to fight terrorists THERE than over HERE?? Cindy Sheehan IS COSTING the American people a lot of money by extra security, etc. Protesters are urinating in people’s yards, traffic. It’s disgusting. She’s an attention hog.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this
Raylene…
Are you high…? The military does A LOT for the troops both current and veterans.
My father, who served two years in the 1960s, can get free medical from the local VA hospital. In fact he was ready to do so when he lost his job and medical insurance several years back.
My cousin-in-law (husband of my cousin) has learned countless skills, traveled the world and will have a very comfortable retirement in just a few years.
Several relatives and friends of mine went through ROTC, received free educations and either stayed in the service or completed their five years and are now trained for civilian life.
Your comment about “paying for uniforms” is simply ignorant. Actually, it’s not ignorant, b/c they do pay for a good deal of their clothing, but it’s a statement made in such a way as to skew the truth. Let’s put it this way… When men are in the field and their fatigues need to be replaced, they don’t get docked for new ones.
As for the “stupid military”…
They are the main reason you have the ability to spout off the way you are right now. No military, no USA.
If you don’t like the President, the fine. Say all you want about him. I don’t agree with him a great deal of things either, but don’t equate him with the military.
The current military was around way before him and will be around far after him. Support them, and find a way to speak out against the President without hurting the troops.
Unfortunately, detractors of the President have not found a way to do that. The constant haranging of the President fuels anti-war sentiment, which buoys anti-American support around the world, which makes it more difficult for the troops to do their job, which makes people at home more unhappy with the current situation.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
Hanoi Jane & Micheal Moore should be there with her.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this
Jack: This is interesting. So “good soldiers” automatically agree with every mission their boneheaded leaders send them on? There’s no such thing as mistaken missions or bad decisions in the military? Wow. I had no idea.
Frankly, I’d like to see the war supporters explain how they’re “supporting the troops,” since they’re the ones who want them to get killed for no apparent reason. We’re trying to bring them home safe and alive; it’s Bush & co. that want them to stay there and die needlessly. So you tell me: which side is “supporting” the troops?
By Mara
August 29, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
Of course it’s discouraged. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t see the anti-war protesters caricatured and vilified as “Commie ‘Merika hatin’ libruls” or descriptions like “Blame America first”, “Saddam appologists”, or simply “Bush haters”. Or have pro-war advocates calling any anti-war dissent “un-patriotic” no matter how decorated the veteran or how many limbs they lost in service to the country. When demanding accountability from the government, ostensibly a government “of the people”, becomes equated with giving aid and comfort to the enemy, how could dissenters possibly NOT feel discouraged from protesting?
By Randy
August 29, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
NEWSFLASH!!! Bush causes hurricane to hit New Orleans, let’s protest.
NEWSFLASH!!!! Bush puts a gun to the head of Cindy Sheehan’s sons head making him sign up to defend his country, let’s protest.
NEWSFLASH!!!! Bush attacks terrorists, disrupts operations, causing them not to be able to attack innocent Americans, let’s protest.
NEWSFLASH!!!! 40 million babies murdered by Supreme Court’s decision Roe V Wade, WHO CARES???
By Questions
August 29, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this
How come Jesse Jackson has not shown up in Crawford? Sharpton and Sheen were able to make it.
By Randy
August 29, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this
LIBERALS HAVE THEIR HEAD STUCK UP THEIR A**S.
By JD
August 29, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this
I wouldn’t say I volunteered per se (my back was alittle against the wall)but I knew that If I wanted to afford to go to college and and not be a burden to my parents the military was the best option for achieving that goal.
By raylene
August 29, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this
oh dear ken- no i am not high. my husband was screwed over by the marines. and he did have to pay for all of his clothing. new and replacements. i am not the ignorant one here. yeah they get benefits, until they are discharged other than honorable, for nothing. after serving almost 3 years in iraq. so do not tell me i dont know what i am talking about.
By Tim
August 29, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this
NEWSFLASH!!! Bush causes hurricane to hit New Orleans, let’s protest.
Randy… that was God’s work… you see there is a gay event in New Orleans on labor day every year called ‘Southern Decadence’… well since God hates f* He figured he would just destroy the whole damn city to make sure the homos stayed away… PRAISE JESUS the Lord conquered the evil!
By Whiley
August 29, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
Randy, a fetus is not a baby. Not till there are at least chains of “FETUS-BABY-SUPERSTORES”
By taboga
August 29, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this
Frankly, I’d like to see the war supporters explain how they’re “supporting the troops,� since they’re the ones who want them to get killed for no apparent reason. We’re trying to bring them home safe and alive; it’s Bush & co. that want them to stay there and die needlessly. So you tell me: which side is “supporting� the troops?
Let me explain it to you simpleton:
The President believes in what they are doing, we believe in what they are doing and most of all - they believe in what they are doing!
So who’s left in opposition to all of it? Yep, the little Communists who don’t give a rat’s a$$ about the troops at all - just using any available stage to spout-out the same old tired anti-american rhetoric.
As simple as that.
By SteveSC
August 29, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
In answer to the direct point at issue: No, antiwar protests are not discouraged. But there’s another issue that goes way past Cindy Sheehan, but will become evident with each passing month: From personal insensitivity to out-of-control spending, George W. Bush resembles Lyndon B. Johnson much more than he will ever resemble Ronald Reagan.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
Randy, just remember, Jesus is a liberal. I think the hurricane might be God’s retaliation for what Pat Robertson said about taking Hugo Chavez out… maybe he thought Pat was coming onto him or something.
By sct
August 29, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
You would think christians would be standing right beside Sheehan in her protest against this war.
I guess Jesus would approve of thousands of innocent Iraqi deaths, many babies and children.
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
What is wrong with you people? All of this Republican this and Liberal that. Every Liberal isn’t against the war and every conservative doesn’t believe everything that Bush says, but we understand that people have the right to believe what they want to and you or no one else has the moral right to heap unjustified hate on them. It is simply wrong to label someone a communist or un-American just because they don’t agree with everything that the elected adminsitration does, we are human beings not mindless political robots. As far as some of you saying that Mrs. Sheehan’s son would not like what she is doing or that she should have told her son not to join the military; how in h*#! would any of you know, he was grown and did not need her permission but as any mother she probaly prayed that he would make the right decision for himself, but it doesn’t mean she had to agree with it. I have a 20 year old relative in the Marines and he trusts his Commander in Chief and that is what he has been taught. I may have my doubts and concerns, I support him fully, but I pray that he makes it back alive. I am a mother of 3 and can not imagine the pain of losing one of my children so I just find it ridiculous for people to judge or crucify this woman when most of you haven’t walked in her shoes. When i look at her I don’t see insincerity, I see anguish. She is not spewing hate or disrepect for the soilders,this is not a personal attack on the military so quit turning this around, she understands that this is their job, she just wants them home, so that no other mother will feel the devastating grief that she feels. Be honest people, the powers voting for this war don’t have children going over there, their kids are all safely tucked away in their Ivy league colleges. If they believe so much in this war, why don’t they go fight. Working class people are the vast majority of the combat age military, therefore, our kids are the ones dying. I’m sure many of you call yourselves Christian, but you’re certainly not acting like it. Everything is not always what it seems, you people are so close minded it is unbelievable. By the way, Jack, death is free but they work hard for the food and board.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this
Well, we know Robertson’s insane… which makes him, like many conservative freaks, a useful tool for those in power.
As for protests being discouraged, Mara is right on the money. Fortunately, the protestors themselves aren’t discouraged, because we know that the facts are on our side. Bush’s control is slipping, and more people every day are waking up to reality. Cindy Sheehan came late to the party, but everyone who’s pushing for an end to this insane, pointless war is a true patriot. (Much to the dismay of fascist dupes like taboga.)
By sct
August 29, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
We????
August 25 Gallup poll 62%- Country headed in wrong direction.
40%- George Bush approval rating.
By Questions
August 29, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
Jesse Jackson is in Caracas meeting with Chavez. Must be why he could not make Crawford.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this
Tracie: Sorry, but blind obedience is the only way to be “patriotic” these days… haven’t you noticed? You’re either for Bush or you’re for the terrorists. Noticed any of his mistakes? They’re not mistakes! And anyone who says so hates America!
What drivel these desperate neocons are spouting lately. Doesn’t seem to be working any more, does it?
By Jennifer
August 29, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this
hadenough? - THANK YOU!!!! I have sent this to creation and back!! Me and mine plan to do it!!!
By taboga
August 29, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
August 25 Gallup poll 62%- Country headed in wrong direction.
Poll taken last November: President Bush relected, more Republicans elected/re-elected to Congress and Governorships.
The only poll that matters!
By Renee
August 29, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
Anyone, anytime should have the right to protest the war. This does not make someone less American because they do this. War protests are discouraged (in my opinion) which people also have the right to do. Thus we have two sides battling, neither one more important than the other. The only problem with protesting is that it really doesn’t solve anything. The only people listening to the protesters are the protesters themselves.
By JD
August 29, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
I think most anti-war protesters believe that America has alot more to offer the world than war. This administration has yet to bring the culprits and planners of 9/11 to justice. The weapons of mass destruction that the Bush administration sold this war in Iraq on, have yet to be found. It would be irresponcible to not protest, when gross inaccuracies are evident, and question remain unanswered.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Jesse Jackson is in Caracas meeting with Chavez. Must be why he could not make Crawford.
Is there any truth to the rumor that the fellow Communist Chavez will be given time at the podium at the Democrat Convention in ‘08…?
By JD
August 29, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
Truth…since when does truth matter too you guys?
By Jack
August 29, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this
Tracie. They volunteered for it. Unlike a lot of us who had no choice.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
Raylene…
Interesting that you now indicated not being “honorably” discharged as part of the “unfair” treatment to our countries veterans. There is a huge distinction between the two.
Why are people not “honorably” dicharged? I am not a member of our military’s administration, but I do know that in the current environment, it takes quite a lot to be discharged and not have it be classified as honorable.
By Randy
August 29, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
The problem with Pat Robertson is his father was a senator, so he looks at situations not entirely from a Christian perspective. He looks at things from a political/particial Christian perspective. He is not crazy and is a good Christian,he just has a slanted perspective. Jesus didn’t have a slanted perspective!!!
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Jack: Did they likewise volunteer to be given illegal orders based on lies and mistakes? Does that make it “okay” when their commander has screwed up and gotten them killed? “Oh, it’s okay… after all, they volunteered!”
Sorry, but I hold the commander in chief to a little higher standard than that. He has LIVES under his control; he has a responsibility to use them wisely and not waste them. Inarguable truth: Bush screwed up with this war. And the soldiers under his command are paying the price for his arrogance and stupidity.
By bonerday
August 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Is there any truth to the rumor that the fellow Communist Chavez will be given time at the podium at the Democrat Convention in ‘08…?
I think we got it on good authority late last week that we are all doomed as Americans, since eventually what use to be the good ole USA will only be yet another south-of-the-border corrupt military dictatorship psshole. And then we can all want to cross the border illegally southward bound for a *better life.
Thanks to LUPE for clarifying that.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
The next glimpse you get of the so-called “Anti-War” protest - check out the signs and banners.
Let us know when you see the first sign calling for the terrorists to stop their actions. And while you’re at it, get a good count as well, the amount of banners that urge other Muslim nations to stop supporting terrorism around the world.
And when you’ve searched high and low and are unable to find a single one - come back and try to explain to me how this protest is supposedly: Anti-war.
It was Anti-Bush yesterday and will be Anti-Bush tomorrow.
By Randy
August 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
I do hate to see innocent people killed, I do hate to see American soldiers die. However, the way I see it, we didn’t start this war, (Kuwait) and 911. I would hate to see what Islamic extremeists would do to us if Bush wasn’t taking the war to them. Are we suppose to sit around and just wait to be attacked???
By sct
August 29, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Jesus didn’t have a slanted perspective!!!
Would Jesus be saying “Lets kill some Iraqi’s”???
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this
Randy: Dr. Robertson (don’t call him “Reverend,” he resigned his ordination) regularly prays for people to die. And he calls himself a Christian. He also breaks the law, steals and misappropriates donation money to fund his (largely failed) business ventures, and foams at the mouth while screeching his hatred of a long list of fellow human beings. And he calls himself a Christian.
Therefore, he’s either a liar or he’s crazy; which is it?
By Ken
August 29, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Brian… If the opponents of President Bush want change then have them offer different solutions!
For nearly every step of his Presidency we have had nothing except his ideas are bad, evil, wrong, etc. yet his detractors have offered nothing in the form of solutions. The only solutions they offer is inactivity.
Don’t do anything with Saddam. Let the UN do their job and everything will work itself out.
Don’t do anything about the economy except continue to tax and redistribute wealth.
Don’t do anything about Social Security except raise the retirement age for younger folks, raise the maximum wage threshhold and continue paying out.
Please DO NOT misunderstand where I’m going. I DO NOT agree with many things the President says or this Adminstration does. I disagree on a great deal of things particularly with the environment, the defecit spending and how they have handled this war.
However, I do not believe that loud protests like Cindy Sheehan do ANYTHING except embolden the enemy. I would also rather see the Democrats/Libs/Insert Group Name offer solutions and a vision for this country. Perhaps then my decision as a citizen would be for more than one party who puts forth ideas and another who does nothing but say those ideas are bad.
Most people, including myself will take my chances with someone who has a direction. At least then I can quantify the results. So far, I believe there is more good than bad.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
Randy: Iraq also didn’t start this war… the 9/11 terrorists did. Remember them? Al-Qaeda? Osama bin Laden? The Saudis, whom Bush forbade the CIA from investigating because it might get ‘embarrassing’?
This whole Iraq mess is not “part” of the war on terrorism: it’s a distraction from it. And, as seen in the London bombings, it hasn’t done SQUAT to keep the terrorists “over there.” The only effect it’s had is create even more terrorism because Bush still wants to play soldier and pretend he can boss every other nation around and get away with it.
By Maxine
August 29, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this
Towel Heads
Recently I received a warning about the use of this politically incorrect term so please note: We need to be more sensitive to our choice of words. I have been informed that the Islamic Terrorists who hate our guts and want to kill us do not like to be called “Towel Heads” since the item they wear on their heads is not a towel, but in fact a small, folded sheet. Therefore from this point forward, please refer to them as “Little Sheet Heads”. Thanks for your support and compliance on this delicate matter. And please try not to say it too quickly.
By JD
August 29, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this
But Randy, President Bush said we were going to war to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction they were hiding from U.N. inspectors poised to be used against American interest. Where are the weapons of mass destruction President Bush used to justify military action in Iraq?
By raylene
August 29, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
ken- seeing as you do not know the situation at hand, you cannot say that the reason for someone to be other than honorably discharged is always fair. my personal experience with the situation was an unfair one. i would rather not get into it, but i will explain it later.
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Exactly, Jack, they volunteered but like those drafted some times you never know what you are getting yourself into until you get there, my cousin was 18 homeless and fresh out of school and joining the Marines has given him an opportunity to stay on the right track, but he was also told certain untruths before he enlisted. I also had two uncles that were drafted into the Vietnam War, my grandmother didn’t want them to go but back then there weren’t many choices for poor minorities, so they went and she prayed, by God’s grace they made it back and that’s all we want for all of the fine soilders of our military. God Bless America!
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this
On the contrary… I wholeheartedly ENCOURAGE these war protests. Please join us as often as you can! PEACE, out.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this
BrianCurtis. When you are in the military, their are no illegal orders. How bout just turing 20 and being told to shoot a baby walking up to you because there may be a granade in her diaper? Do you think I liked that? Over there you obey orders or you may get shot. I’m not in favor of this war or the other wars and everyone has the right to protest. Her son knew what he was getting into.
By Renee
August 29, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Also, I do not personally understand the concern for Iraqi women and children. Innocent people die during a war, this happens. We need to be more concerned with the women and children in OUR country. Being concerned for our troops in Iraq is one thing, but their women and children??? They aren’t concerned about us, THIS IS WAR, whether we agree or not.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this
Brian… Not sure how the orders to attack Iraq were illegal? Whose laws were broken? I don’t believe he used force without consent of the Senate.
I do not believe them to be illegal, nor do I believe them to be a result of lies. A results of mistakes, I will definitely grant that. However, I’m one of those that would have supported military action without WMDs.
For people to accuse anyone of lying about anything, they better doggone be sure of it. And I mean sure without a shadow of a doubt. If ANYONE here thinks they can make that claim, then they are far more telepathic or entrenched in this Administration than anyone on record.
Besides… Does anyone with half a brain really think if the charge of “lie” could be proven that every media outlet in the world would not have it at the top of the news. If that charge could be proven, Bush would have lost the previous election or would have been impeached.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
Raylene… My knowledge is of several friends and family members who have served and been discharged, all of them honorably.
It sounds as though you are demonizing an entire organization for a very exceptional and unfortunately very personal situation. While I can empathize with your pain, I can not know what you know nor feel what you feel. All I can ask is that you not denigrate the very organization that provides our freedom based on that.
By sct
August 29, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
“When Ronald Reagan saw that he had made a mistake putting our soldiers in Lebanon … he admitted the mistake, and he withdrew from Lebanon.”
[It]” escalated a guerrilla warfare into a real war, and the real losers are the innocent civilians.”
“…… bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode,”
“…has no plan for the end” “The bombing was a mistake. … And this president ought to show some leadership and admit it, and come to some sort of negotiated end.”
No these are not quotes from Sheehan or Michael Moore or Jesse Jackson. They are from Tom Delay during the Yugoslavia conflict.
I guess its ok to NOT support the troops when you are a flag waving Republican with a political agenda.
Btw, Newt Gingrich was quoted as saying the Yugoslavia war was going to turn into “another Vietnam.” Where are you Newt?
By E. Lewis
August 29, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this
We’ve got a president who publicly states that you are either with us or against us. There are well funded, political groups formed with the sole purpose of “Swift Boating” people like Cindy Sheehan. Anyone with a dissenting opinion or who wishes to protest anywhere near the taxpayer funded events sponsoring the President or Vice President finds themselves forcible removed from such events or at the very least moved to a zone far away from the politicians and the cameras. Law abiding protesters are regularly arrested and held without charges or bail in some case the several days.
Now what was the original question in this column?
By Archie
August 29, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
How do protests embolden the enemy? Also I agree with Brian Curtis that Pat Robertson is either a liar or crazy.
Also solutions have been offered to many issues. 45 million with no health insurance. Solution offered: universal healthcare, in other words, let’s share the cost amongst all people so that everyone benefits which was the motivation concept of insurance in the beginning anyway. Saddam Hussein didn’t have any powerhouse weapons and we know he couldn’t fire any missiles that would reach us here in America. Letting the UN do their job was a solution. Heck, we had inspectors from the US in Iraq. Drugs are higher than sin. Solution offered: Allow folk to buy drugs from other countries since you get other things from other countries at a lower price but then people couldn’t get ripped off as much as they are now. Put out a lie about safety concerns is what the administration does. Gas prices have skyrocketed to the point of gouging and the solution offered was to make vehicles adhere to higher mpg and use reserve but that solution was rejected by the administration because it would hurt big business oil companies and car companies. I haven’t seen but a few things the administration has done to help people not in the top 2% of income. Bush raised the child tax credit and he cut income taxes, but guess what, local governments have raised taxes via an extra penny for eating out,etc.
Connecticutt is suing the Bush administraton over his no child left behind act because, he ain’t funding it. I haven’t yet figured out how a constitutional amendment will make me kiss my wife more or make me feel better about my marriage. Again this guy Bush just doesn’t do much for regular people. Thus it’s hard to believe too much of what he says because there are so many that have worked with Bush that pretty much call him out.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
Jack: Sorry, but you’re dead wrong. There ARE illegal orders, and the code of military justice specifically requires soldiers to disobey them and file a protest.
You may not have been told that—after all, nobody likes having their authority undermined—but it’s true. If your CO ordered you to, oh, let’s say, torture prisoners with waterboarding or broom-handle rape: you’d have a specific obligation to both refuse AND to report it. Why? Because the order is itself illegal.
Soldiers only get to play with guns if they agree to follow the rules. And one of those rules is that illegal orders are not obeyed.
By Dee
August 29, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this
To all of those who are posting comments against Sheehan’s protest of the war ask yourself this question, “If this was my son, daughter, grandchild, cousin, etc; how would I feel after I’ve learned that Saddam Hussein NEVER had any intentions of attacking the U.S. with biological weapons (unlike some americans, he’s not that stupid); Iraq NEVER had anything to do with the terrorists who infiltrated and terrorized the U.S. in 2001; and WMD’s were NEVER found in Iraq? Would you feel slighted that your son, daughter, grandchild, etc. NEVER had a chance? “What luck for rulers, that men do not think.” —Adolf Hitler
By raylene
August 29, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this
ken- while the situation i am speaking of is a personal one, i do know many others in different branchs that have been treated poorly. you may not understand the situation, but i will try to explain it. when my husband came back from iraq the second time, he had just recently turned 21. to celebrate his return, his bday, and the birth of his son, he went to a bar with some friends and a mother of a friend. some idiots were trying to get to the friends mom and they slipped drugs into my husbands drink(the mom was already plastered). when he returned to the base he was still feeling the effects of the drug(unfortunatly a very strong one)and they tested him. they did not believe him that he did not voluntarily take the drug. he spent over a month in the brigg and was discharged “other than honorably”, losing all benefits for him and myself and our son. can you honestly tell me that that is fair? he got no trial, nothing. just was guilty of something he didnt do.
By Eric
August 29, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this
So Ken, you see the lost of her son as not being a good reason to protest.
If her son had been killed going into a drug store (volunteered), would she not have a reason to want him caught and brought to justice or held accountable?
There is an honor behind this. I would never protest if my son lost his life in a justifiable war. There are dictators in North Korea, Cuba, Africa, Pakistan, etc. If my son died fighting to keep us safe from Iran or some other eminent threat, I would understand.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
BrianCurtis. Yeah. Try dis-obeying orders in combat and filing a protest. That goes over really well.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this
Ken, can you quantify exactly how Cindy Sheehan and protestors embolden the enemy? We hear this in debate all the time, but we never hear exactly how works. I’m not sure they get the whole idea of free speech, anyway, since most of them have never experienced it anyway.
If the terrorists pay attention to our mostly pathetic network news coverage, they would think we were obsessed about nothing but missing and/or dead white women and hurricanes. I think news of imprisoning journalists for protecting their sources, or White House staff members leaking the identity of a CIA operative, or blaming only peons for systemic torture of some of their civilians, would embolden them more than honoring the dead son of a grieving mother.
By DEE
August 29, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this
Tracie: Thank you for being a voice of reason.
Jack: Of COURSE there are illegal orders!!! Don’t you remember your history? Remember Rudolph Hess? Remember the War Tribunals that are held after major wars? Remember the recent Iraqi Prisons Debacle (Lyndie Johnson et. al)? You can’t get away with saying “I was just following orders anymore and expect it to absolve you of your guilt/sins of complying with an unlawful order.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
Jack: I didn’t mention combat situations specifically… but even there, the obligation still exists. Commanders don’t like it—and may even deny it—but they have to follow the rules too.
Despite what many bloodthirsty armchair warriors would prefer, the military is not “anything goes—whatever it takes to win.” We have laws and rules the military must follow, even if it means being at a disadvantage at times. That’s what makes our guys “soldiers,” as opposed to “terrorists.”
By Bobb
August 29, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
Just saw a picture of Sheehan meeting Martin Sheen outside the President’s home in Crawford. Very subtle use of imagery. Hey, I didn’t know that Sheen’s character on “The West Wing” is nicknamed “Jeb”!
By Jack
August 29, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this
So you’re saying I should dis-obey and then get shot to death? Ok. Then I can come back and haunt those who gave the orders.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this
Jack: Well, that’s for you to decide. Should you sacrifice your life to save innocents? Seems to me that’s what you signed up for….
By Mr. Roberts
August 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
In reply to Sandy. So it is clear some Communist “progressivesâ€? are willing to come out of the closet and like the American Democrats who got into a high dudgeon when Karl Rove told a gathering of the New York Conservative Party that “Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.â€? Conservatives, he said, “saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war.â€? But at the same time Democrats were appearing to be indignant, Senator Kennedy was calling Iraq a quagmire and to his face, calling for Secretary Rumsfeld’s resignation, while at the same time Pelosi was out soliciting other Democrats to form a commission to investigate GTO. It is always wise to not pay attention to the words of Democrats, but to their deeds. Indeed, methinks they doth protest too much. Let’s examine how the radical legal arm of the Left works as a Fifth Column to undermine our government and to defend the terrorists. One of the reasons why you’ll see Grandma taking off her shoes for airport security, while the Sheik of Araby passes through unmolested, is because as soon as the Patriot Act went into effect, organizations like Ratner’s cried “racial profiling,â€? so now only random checks can be made. When wiretaps and surveillance were sanctioned by the Patriot Act, the left claimed such measures “sacrifice our political freedoms in the name of national security.â€? These are the same who care nothing for the political freedom of Cuban dissidents, who have none, and who knows that we Americans will have no political freedoms once we are under the thumb of the New World Order. As far as defending ourselves from ICBMs or illegal immigrants, that is out of the question according to the Left. In 2002, a lawsuit saying Bush acted unconstitutionally when he terminated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty signed in 1972 with the now non-existent Soviet Union, under which we could not erect a missile defense. Similarly, on Long Island, New York when citizens became proactive against an influx of illegals in their neighborhood, and took pictures and demanded that the INS take action, Barbara Olshansky of CCR conferred American civil rights on the illegals: “We have developed litigation to challenge this campaign of harassment and are working to educate these workers about their rights as well.â€? Naturally the left denounced the bombing of Afghanistan. Lord knows we might have hit Osama! And quite predictably, blamed America for the 9/11 attacks, for even back in 2002, they saw America as an eminent evil: “If the U.S. government truly wants its people to be safer and wants terrorist threats to diminish, it must make fundamental changes in its foreign policies… particularly its unqualified support for Israel, and its embargo of Iraq, its bombing of Afghanistan, and its actions in Saudi Arabia which continue to anger people throughout the region, and to fertilize the ground where terrorists of the future will take root.â€? In other words, there was no such thing as jihad, and we were needlessly antagonizing that “religion of peace,â€? Islam. And so goes the strategy, but there are hundreds of organizations like CCR, all working to protect terrorists so that they may do the job of toppling America that Stalin and Mao failed to do. To those “progressivesâ€? who ingenuously profess to believe that continual terrorism is a natural Muslim reaction to the invasion of Iraq, let me ask again, which came first, that invasion or the writing of the Koran with the mandate of Muslims to kill infidels, and the killing of 3,000 innocents on 9/11?!
By Jack
August 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
OK. The woman and anyone else has the right to protest the war. They have the right to protest anything. I don’t wish to bring the other stuff up so nuff said.
By Zack
August 29, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
While I have my dislikes about the current war, those protesting it (the Michael Moore crowd) are about the most insane hypocrites going.
These people couldn’t care less that abortion is taking place left and right, that other immorality is rampant, that are society embraces it, etc.. No, they want to discourage the truth that truth is absolute and advertise the myth that it’s subjective.
Here’s another point for last week’s question: Why not add to our curriculum the politically incorrect truth about Islam, that it’s nothing but a religion full of hatred and destruction? It’s scary that our nation defends this religion as it does, even though Islam fully inspired the attacks on us the way it did.
My goodness, we need reform.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this
I said I would be nice. But Brian Curtis you are an a* who has NO CLUE.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Congratulations, Zack! I wasn’t sure how you’d tie this week’s topic in with abortion, but I knew you’d try. (And fail.)
But at least you’re running true to form. What sort of job do you have that you can perform while mumbling “abortion… abortion… abortion” all day long?
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
Clearly you wouldn’t make a very good soldier, Jack. Blind obedience makes for good stormtroopers and suicide bombers… but soldiers are better than that.
By Whiley
August 29, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
I have one thing to say, 9-11-01 nuff said
By Dee
August 29, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this
Mr. Roberts:
The Christian Crusades Came First.
By rocky
August 29, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this
She’s a disgraceful excuse for a mother who has done nothing but exploit her son’s death for her own political platform and ongoing publicity. She has not only attacked the war, but has also spewed forth antisemetic statements and has even said the words (and I quote) “America is not worth fighting for”. She’s an America-hating commie who would rather see our country weakened than helping another society gain the freedom they’ve never had. She has no credibility, and bringing Martin Sheen and Al Sharpton on board only lessened it further. Her own husband can’t stand her, she has managed to alienate her own family, and now she’s given her mother a stroke. Yes, I can see why all the lefties are so proud of her. Perhaps if she thought of soldier deaths in Iraq as just late-term abortions, she’d be much more comfortable with them.
By rocky
August 29, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
To answer the question - no. Anti-war protests are not discouraged. They have the right to protest and we have the right to consider morons like Cindy Sheehan the laughing stock of the entire country.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
Mr. Roberts, regarding the issue with racial profiling, where does the departure of members of Bin Laden’s family immediately after 9/11, at the request of the White House without ever being questioned, fit into your diatribe? They after all were Saudi, like most of the hijackers. They left unquestioned, despite their regional and ethnic connections and their relationship with our president’s family. Maybe a random check may have gotten us some information…
By JD
August 29, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this
Attack the messenger, ask Jesus Christ he knows all about it.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
But Sandy, the Saudi royals were off-limits! Didn’t you get the memo? The CIA and other intelligence agencies knew plenty about the bin Ladens and their funding ties to terrorism… but investigating that would have been embarrassing and inconvenient to the energy interests, so that area was roped off and labeled “Off Limits.”
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
By both Bush AND Clinton, I might add.
By Bobb
August 29, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Brian - Now that you have brought it up, how has Clinton gone unscathed through all this? Did Sandy Berger managed to stuff all the incriminating proof down his pants or what?
By HARD40
August 29, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Cindy Sheehan certainly has the right to protest. President Bush is’nt GOD, the pope, or a king, he is a man who happens to be the president and has ordered thousands of young men and women to risk their lives so America will have an unlimited supply of cheap oil. I can’t see how people can critize Cindy Sheehan because she is a vocal critic of this war in Iraq. We are constantly “told” America is in Iraq to free the country and make it a democratic society but someone like Cindy Sheehan can’t exercise her right to free speech and protest this war? I chanllenge anyone on this blog to name one Sentor or politician who has one family member fighting in this war. The answer is zero. They are sending poor young people to fight a rich man’s war. SO Haliburton and the Bush family, and other defense companies can be make millions, but at who’s exspense? The Bush and Chenney family have millions of dollars invested in the petroleum industy. Not to mention Chenney being the fomer president of Haliburton. Is it any coincidence Haliburton is in Iraq profiting off this war? Bush was never honest in the first place. He said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, we found out later, their were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I’m not a Democrat or a Republican. Republicans are a bunch or mindless drones, they support Bush no matter what he says or does. That can’t be good for America. I really don’t see any difference between democrats and republicans anyway.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Eric… No I don’t believe losing her son is good reason to PROTEST. I believe it is a good reason to GRIEVE.
Your analagy of the drugstore is ludicrous. The person going into the drugstore expects to purchase their medicine or other items, to leave and go home to their family. There is no expectation of danger.
Any individual who volunteers for the military understands the inherent danger involved. If you are in a combat unit, that level of expected danger increases. That fact alone makes your analagy ludicrous. Perhaps we should also think about the story done last week about the area mother who lost her son and was a friend of Cindy Shaeehan’s boy. We don’t know anything about her. Why? B/C she has chosen a private life. she has chosen to not bring attention to herself. She has chosen to MOURN rather than to PROTEST.
BTW… What IS a justifiable war? One where we were attacked first? Then WWI would not be justified. Neither would Korea, the War of 1812, Kosovo, or even the Civil War for that matter. Sounds like justification is based on what YOU believe.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
Bobb: Beats me; Clinton made plenty of mistakes and bad decisions. I don’t think he was that good a president.
Ken: Actually, the rules for a “justifiable war” are spelled out quite clearly in treaties and laws we’ve passed. The allowable reasons are
1) after we’re attacked (and only against the identified attacker, duh);
2) after an ally is attacked and requests our aid; or
3) when an imminent threat to our national security can be proven.
That’s IT. There are no other justifications for war, according to our own laws. Opinion has nothing to do with it. If Bush couldn’t satisfy the conditions of any of these three situations, the war was—by law and definition—illegal. Specifically, it would be a “war of aggression” and those responsible could be prosecuted as war criminals.
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this
Rocky, you have never met Mrs. Sheehan, but because you disagree with her that makes her a moron? Talk about extremist, the way you people are talking about this woman is the same way the terrorists talk about us, full of hate. Hate because they believe that in some way we have wronged them, hate because maybe they are jealous of our lifestyle or hate simply because they can, either way it’s wrong. Wrong no matter what your political argument is. We as Americans need to take a look at what we are doing to each other only then will we be effective against our enemies, be it real or perceived.
Oh yeah Whiley, 9/11 is the main point, both parties agree this horrible attack was the plan of Osama and his supporters, did we forget about the real culprit. He actually did attack us on our soil. For me he should be the top priority and any country that is harboring this mass murderer. That war is worth fighting.
By Archie
August 29, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this
Thanks Brian for the 1:41 post. I still have not got any answer as to how protesting aids the enemy. Sometimes I feel like HARD40 does in his 1:28 post because all of us must remember that most Democrats voted for the Iraq war. It is harder to file bankruptcy now after Bush than before so I again what does this guy,Bush, do for regular people.
By Eric
August 29, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Exactly Brian Curtis.
If the known attackers of 9-11 were from Saudi Arabia, then why didn’t we attack Saudi Arabia? The threat is there.
There have been plenty of times when Iranians have been shown burning the flag, etc. Why not attack them first? What about Pakistan? Or North Korea? All of these countries are known threats. Why would we attack Iraq first?
It makes no sense.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
The terrorists are doing a good job. They are being sucessful at dividing our country. Divide and conquer isn’t that the way it goes. Left vs. right, white vs. black. Keep it up folks and we will be a superpower no more. Lovely.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
But Sandy, the Saudi royals were off-limits! Didn’t you get the memo? The CIA and other intelligence agencies knew plenty about the bin Ladens and their funding ties to terrorism… but investigating that would have been embarrassing and inconvenient to the energy interests, so that area was roped off and labeled “Off Limits.�
Obviously there’s no need to investigate it - Inspector Clouseau has all the inside dope on what the intelligence agencies know.
If it weren’t for the dips - what fun would this board be…
By Archie
August 29, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
Attacking Iraq does make sense if you’re planning on attacking Iran and Syria in the future. You establish a military base in Iraq and you don’t have to worry about flying from Saudi and having Iran knowing exactly where you are. With a base in Iraq you can attack from Saudi and Iraq which gives our military a better chance of winning and thus dominating the Middle East. This is exactly what Jay Bookman talked about years ago with pax-americana thing.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this
Yeah. That Jay Bookman knows everything. He’s the bomb.
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Let’s be honest here. I despise anti-war protests. I dislike pitiful Brian Curtis. I think Raylene is having a tough time blaming the military. I wish Sheehan would go home and grieve if that is what she is doing.
I hate it when Gen Myers says, after a trip to Iraq, that soldiers are asking what is wrong at home. What is wrong here is people acting like idiots in protests. Therefore, do I discourage people protesting against this war and hating the president? You bet I do. They have twisted free speech into a lethal weapon against our own country. Simply put, they are acting like traitors.
By sct
August 29, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
What would Jesus do?
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Good point, Jack!
So why don’t you come stand firmly on the side of: “Go to war ONLY when necessary, not for lies and oil.” and “Finish the job with Bin Laden who DID attack us, and don’t put our soldiers into harms way fighting and occupying a country that DIDN’T attack us” and “If we send soldiers to a country that DIDN’T attack us, it should be as a part of a multi-national force” and “Our leaders should be ACCOUNTABLE for lies that cost lives”
Stand with US, Jack… Then we can bring Rocky ‘n’nem on over. Then we’ll be UNITED for truth, justice, and the American way, instead of embroiled in a state of denial, ignorance, and hatred. How ‘bout it? Huh?
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
Good point, Dusty. Americans are acting like traitors. Especially the rich folks who take their big, FAT tax cuts to buy 8-mpg Hummers and guzzle gas and pamper themselves while our soldiers fight with inadequate numbers, armor, and equipment, and wounded vets come home to find their benefits cut and brand new bankruptcy laws that screw them! Traitors like the people who think a $2 car magnet supports the troops, but they won’t sign up to fight themselves or send their precious lil’ yuppie kids in harm’s way to end this sooner. Traitors who wrap themselves in the flag and burn the Constitution and call people horrible names for daring to speak the truth.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
Why are you Leftists so sure that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9.11? And how do you know that most of the hijackers were Saudi?
Wasn’t it the Bush Administration that told you that? How do you know they are telling the truth about that?
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Of course anti-war protests are discouraged today. Think Archie Bunker and “Meathead”. Yes, they are still with us.
You can see from this blog many support Sheehan’s ‘protest’ and many do not as well. More American ‘dissent’ and with all the media attention on it, I can hardly consider that there is an ‘intolerable’ level towards her protest.
However ‘pure’ her motives, (or not), she lost me completely (not that she ever had me) when I saw her on TV asking “President Bush, why did you kill me son?”. Talk about out of touch with reality. Kinda a 60/s carry-over.
On that ‘protest’ thought though, did you see where many of the anti-(whateva) protestors arrested at the 2004 GOP convention in NYC had their charges dropped after video-tape proved the charges were trumped up? Certainly interesting.
But you have to love a hand-picked YES SIR audience. Now that is huevos/conejos. LOL
By raylene
August 29, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
dusty- i am not blaming the military, i just have no respect for them after the way i have seen them treat their service men.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Brian… Where are those “rules” documented and who determines whether or not we’ve broken them.
Also…
What is an ally? What constitutes “imminent threat”? Who makes those decisions. That is still let up to what an individual believes. If the Administration did not make that case then the Senate should not have authorized the use of force. They still have that authority.
The Senate committees have access to virtually everything that the Administration does, yet they still came to the same conclusion. DO NOT blame this Administration alone for the invasion of Iraq. Blame EVERY SINGLE SENATOR who voted for it as well. If you choose to blame this Administration for the prosecution of the war, so be it.
Jack’s post at 1:55 explains pretty clearly how the protesting can aid an enemy. Showing division gives the enemy a greater will to continue. In this case, as in VietNam, the enemy knew that if they could just hold on a little while longer they could wait out the patience of our fickle populous and eventually the government would crack.
This President, however, has proven tougher than most. Unlike Clinton, he does not govern based on opinion polls. He governs based on what he believes is right, whether or not the opinion polls support him. Some people call it stubborn. I call it backbone.
If our people gave this effort all of it’s support for the duration of the effort, then we would win. But politics does not allow that to happen. We are not able to separate the effort in Iraq from President Bush.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
What was with Clinton not firing cruise missiles to both Afghanistan and the Sudan, in an attempt to get OBL? (which he actually did do, by the way) Probably considered ‘outrageous’ by the House of Representatives at that time. Anybody remember Newt’s reaction?
By Jack
August 29, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this
Kimberly. I try to be in the middle. Too much left is as bad as too much right. I feel sorry for the woman but she is doing her son a dis-service. The sad truth is nobody knows the truth. Who owns the crystal ball? History shows that everyone we have helped has bitten us in the a* after the fact. Things are not good. Better arm yourselves. When the doodoo hits the fan, the “have nots” will be comming after the “haves”.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
I am in SHOCK:
*Democrat and Republican politicians rallied behind the President. Newt Gingrich, the House Speaker, called it “the right thing to do”. *
must have been the ONLY thing they (Newt/Clinton) EVER agreed upon.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Brian Curtis, I must have missed that memo. I was distracted reading the article in the New York Times about the Al Quaeda training camps that predicted yet another terrorist attack months before 9/11… Oh, and practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian…
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Yes, using modern GOP logic, Newt was un-American because he didn’t stand behind the President no matter what. How ‘bout the rest of you who think I should stand behind this President — just BECAUSE. Did YOU respect the last President no matter what? Did you say, “Let him attend to his important duties and stop hounding him about stuff that doesn’t matter!” Did ya? Did ya? Um-hmmmm.
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, I don’t pay much attention to you & Curtis. Both of you say the same old stuff over and over. Rich people, gas guzzlers, car magnets. “poor” troops,liars, etc., etc., etc.
You really need a new and fresher line. That one is outdated and repetitious.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
Ken: A good overview of the conditions for a “just war” under international (and therefore US) law can be found at
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-law.htm#low
I assume you’ll trust a US Air Force resource? Specifically, the terms for a just war are spelled out in Article 51 of the UN Charter, which—lest we forget—the U.S. has agreed to abide by and is bound by its own laws to follow.
And “resolve” isn’t a virtue if you’re wrong. For the record, I DO blame the cowardly senators who voted away their Constitutional authority for fear of being labeled “unpatriotic.”
Bush is not above the law; and he IS accountable for his actions. The same applies to every public official; remember, we (not they) are in charge. They report to us.
Dusty: Tough s*. Free speech means nothing if it’s not used in its most important capacity—to criticize the wrongful actions of our government.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
Hey Sandy, can you cast a spell on someone for me? LOL!
By Jack
August 29, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
We can keep hurricanes from harming us in the U.S.. We line up the politicians on the coastline where the hurricane will land and have them all exhale toward the hurricane and it will blow out to sea. Problem solved.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Sure Jack, but I use my powers for good and not evil…Dumbledore’s woman through and through…
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
it is all cultural. I heard the Thai opinion at the time was “Well, if OUR President had the opportunity to have some sweet young thing provide oral service and he declined, we would want him impeached”.
and over here, we wanted him impeached for it. LOL
I believe it is ‘cojones’ (not conejos, mis-spelling there). Huevos is the term I use.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Sandy: Even now that he’s dead? Now that’s commitment.
By rocky
August 29, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Actually, Tracie, I despise Cindy Sheehead because she is anti-American, and doesn’t feel that this country is worth fighting for. She is an anti-semetic and has said vile and hateful things about Isreal. She has called the president name after hateful name, and then expects him to respect her enough to meet with him a second time. She’s living in her own little leftist world, surrounded by the same extremist left crowd that runs Moveon.org, which is now the faction that has taken over the Democratic party, so she has no handle on what is really going on in the real world. She speaks for no one, including her hero son, and she should leave this country that she so despises on the next train out.
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Dusty, I shall cry into my pillow every night, now that I know you’re tired of me.
By lilith
August 29, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
It makes me so sad when a woman makes a comment like, “Why so much concern for Iraqi women and children?” I’m concerned about them because I’m concerned about all human beings. In every war we demonize the enemy; that’s part of the problem with war. The women and children of Iraq didn’t cause this war!
By taboga
August 29, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
Again I ask: If the Bush Administration told you it was Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda that was responsible for 9.11 - why do you believe them?
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
Cannot criticize American actions without being called unpatriotic.
Cannot criticize Israel’s actions without being called anti-Semitic.
Mind-boggling, isn’t it?
but it is consistent, I must say that.
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
Raylene, you say that you have no respect for the military. That covers a lot of people overseas fighting their hearts and lives out for us. I do mean us. They’re fighting over THERE instead of HERE. I appreciate that.
You’ll be OK. You sound like a smart young woman.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
The women and children of Iraq didn’t cause this war!
Aren’t they raising potential future terrorists though?
Don’t mind me, just trying to think like a conservative hawk or as Mick would say, Neo-Con.
By Ken
August 29, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
Sorry Brian… Must not have read the same article at that site you did. I saw one full of links and a second written by an Army officer from West Point. If I get a different link I’ll reevaluate.
Oddly enough both make clear that the documents do not reflect the official position of the US military and the one written by the Army officer from West Point even references Christian Just War theory… Gotta love how folks will use Christian doctrine when it fits their personal view point.
I also noticed that there were several points where individuals needed to make “moral judgements” and that there were no absolutes.
Unfortunately, the only thing left to hang the hat on is that we didn’t abide by the UN. I think I know where lots of folks stand on that one.
As for “resolve” being wrong… What would’ve happened had Washington thown in the towel. What would’ve happened had Lincoln thrown in the towel. They were facing the same struggles as this President is right now, namely poor public opinion but they didn’t waver. History shows their struggles were worth the pain even though the fickle populous would’ve quit if given the chance.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
When General Sherman does it, it is terrible and discussed for generations.
When General Bush does it, it is a good thing.
Go figure.
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Rocky,
You claim that Cindy Sheehan is Anti-American. That’s a pretty serious charge. Can you define it in terms we simple-minded lefties can understand? And how serious is it? Can you rank it among other serious, heinous offenses so we can put it in perspective? Where does it fall in rank with things like Lying, Murder, Bearing false witness, Price Gouging, Misuse of power, and so forth?
By taboga
August 29, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
If the Bush Administration are nothing but a bunch of liars and they told you that no WMD was found - that obviously means they have been, right?
By raylene
August 29, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
ok, let me rephrase that dusty. i have no respect for the way the military can treat the service men. obviously i have respect for our troops fighting for a (in my opinion)stupid reason. i respect them for doing it, even though i think that the war needs to end. my husband spent almost 3 years over there, you think i dont respect that? i also feel sorry for them, even the ones that get to come home, are permentally damaged. not just their bodies, but their minds. i definitally respect what they do and what they go through. for this country. this country that is slowly falling apart.
By Jake
August 29, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Claims that dissent aid and abet the enemy or cost American lives just typify what is wrong with the neocon mindset. In effect, they are saying “if you dont agree with us, you are a traitor”. But in reality it seems pretty obvious that one of the things our troops are fighting for is the right of dissent, guaranteed by the First Amendment. I think the troops are more guilty of treason than Sheehan. All the rebuidling of infrasturucture they do is giving aid and comfort to the enemy, is it not?
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Curtis, I use free speech in its most important present capacity—to criticize the wrongful action of anti-war protestors. My speech is no less important than yours. And do try to use language that the computor/censor doesn’t have to edit out.
Kimberly Don’t cry, Argentina.
By lozen
August 29, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
Every war throughout history in the U.S. has had its protestors. Anti-war protests have never been encouraged in this country. So many of us love war so much. Just as some of us still believe in beating wives and children to make them do what we want! But there are others who realize violence never really solves anything. That is not a concept for simple minds and unfortunately….. there are so many like Toe Booger calling anyone who disagrees with him about anything a communist! Simple, simple minds!
By taboga
August 29, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
That is not a concept for simple minds and unfortunately….. there are so many like Toe Booger calling anyone who disagrees with him about anything a communist! Simple, simple minds!
Nope. I just call the Communists - Communists.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Now you did it. I will be singing “Don’t cry for me Argentina” for the rest of the day. Thanks a lot.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
and here I thought Brian Curtis did his own editting
you mean it was those dang computers again?
LMAO
By Renee
August 29, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Lilith - We are at war. We are trying to make a better life for the Iraqi women and children. However, it’s true, innocent people were dying. IT’S WAR. Innocent women and children were dying when Saddam was in power.
Having said that I don’t think speaking out against the president or protesting against a war makes you any less American. I think it makes a person less American to have a problem with that. When Clinton was President plenty of people called him names and spoke out against him. I didn’t see people being called traitors or unpatriotic then.
And also to Kimberly, if I don’t send my child to war, then I am unpatriotic????? I’m sure you are writing to us from a ditch in Iraq with gunfire over your head.
By Mara
August 29, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
taboga, the Bush administration has had to be push and prodded, sometimes even sued in court, to get this information. Unless it’s helpful to their agenda, they’d rather that John Q Public just shut the f*k up and quit asking so many questions. It to a bi-partisan panel to determine that it actually was Bin Laden without a doubt, (the 9/11 Commission was fought tooth and nail by BushCo…). So NO…I didn’t believe it on Bush’s say so. Because they *are liars. Do you remember the heroic tale of Pat Tilman? Jessica Lynche and the Daring, Death-defying Rescue? How about the shooting of 60+ reporters and camerapeople? LIES. ALL LIES!!! Tilman was hit by friendly fire. Lynch was injured when the convoy wrecked and was treated by Iraqi medical personnel, who attempted to return her to US forces without need for the staged, jiggly-camera “rescue” operation. Shall I go on? How about giving us some stories that the Bush Propaganda Team has put out that are true? I’ll wait, it’ll probably take you a while…
By raylene
August 29, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
lol jack. you are by far my favorite person on this blog.
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this
Ken: What would’ve happened if Nixon threw in the towel? Well, he did—because he was wrong and he was forced to admit it.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Thank you Raylene. I love you too.
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
Like I said Rocky, hate is hate and you can try to justify your feelings of disdain for Mrs. Sheehan all you want but, you are just as wrong. How dare you question someones American-ness, you don’t have that right, this is not the McCarthy Era. She may be angry and to some her anger is displaced but regardless she IS American. This is not a dictatorship where those that disagree with the authority are beheaded. Your rationalization is slightly off, because one thing has nothing to do with the other. It’s just ironic to me that this war is supposedly to insure our freedom, but people like you are trying to take that same freedom away from does that disagree with you. Your tone is similar to the oppressors of our past, those oppressors that hated anyone or anything different, but who went to church every Sunday proclaiming the righteousness of their Savior. I believe your hostility is more of a problem, it is the flame that feeds violent extremists, like Rudolph, McVie and Bin Laden.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
Mara,
How do you know Osama Bin Laden was in Afghanistan? He’s like WMD - never found. So how do you know he was there? And if he wasn’t there - how do you know that it wasn’t Afghanistan that was invaded for oil and not Iraq?
By Brian Curtis
August 29, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
Chilao: I do my own editing. I originally typed “s*” (asterisk, asterisk, asterisk) because I knew the real word would be auto-bleeped anyway.
Ken: The principles of just war and aggression, as I said, are part of the UN Charter. Which, in case we’ve forgotten, is also U.S. law. The U.S. signed it; the Constitution makes it part of our legal code—in fact, superseding any other laws! Is any part of that not clear?
By taboga
August 29, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this
How dare you question someones American-ness, you don’t have that right, this is not the McCarthy Era
And we now know that Joe McCarthy was right!
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
No Renee, I am in favor of ENDING the war in Iraq. If you SAY you support the war, but you are unwilling to make any sacrifices, then you might be unpatriotic. If you think other people’s kids should die defending this “cause,” but that your precious little bundles are too important to sacrifice, then you might be unpatriotic. Not saying I know your heart, Renee. I’m just sayin’.
By Renee
August 29, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Okay, Kimberly, I understand.
By raylene
August 29, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
yay! no offense, but that would be even greater if you were captain jack. but i still love you! lol
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
Taboga, if you can’t contribute to the discussion intelligently, do us all a favor and log-off. This shouldn’t be a forum for mindless dribble.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this
@Brian Curtis - yes, I knew that when I saw it. LOL was being funny to whoever had ‘objected’
I think history has established McCarthy was a major moron, not to mention extremely UN-American.(little play on his committee name there)
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this
Just figured out why McCarthy is Taboga’s hero………. (read my previous post)
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
Afghanistan was invaded not for oil but all those poppies.
By kimberly
August 29, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Tracie, those of us who frequent this hangout just ignore him. His has no actual opinions or causes, but only seeks to inflame.
By Chilao
August 29, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
And if we took out the Taliban and made Osama run when we went into Afghanistan, a little bonus to all those poppies.
Oil in Afghanistan is an oxymoron.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
And of course we heard over and over again how much you Liberals supported the war in Afghanistan.
But in true Liberal form, it wasn’t necessary for everyone who supported that war to go over and fight. Just this one.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this
Captasin Jack is good with 2 parts pineapple juice. Try it.
By Jake
August 29, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this
You’re right on the money Tracie, this is the most un-American administration since the McCarthy era. Even in the first term, as a minority president, Bush continually demonstrated a combination of disdain for public opinion and an inability to admit mistakes. Throw in the increasingly aggressive religious right and our freedom is rapidly becoming what someone else tells us it is. If the dissent is ever completely quelched, they’ll move on to book burning to revise history.
By taboga
August 29, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this
Taboga, if you can’t contribute to the discussion intelligently, do us all a favor and log-off. This shouldn’t be a forum for mindless dribble.
Tracie,
I will do as I damned well please. And last thing I need is another rube Liberal cracking me up with their begging for “intelligent discussion”.
And I think, in your attempt for “intelligent discussion” - you meant to say “drivel”. Basketball has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. But if it were the case that mindless “drivel” were barred from this forum, Ken, Dusty and Jack would be the only ones left for me to converse with.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Why then did he win the election Jake?
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
Thanks Kimberly, I was wondering what his purpose was.
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this
Well, I see liberals applauding liberals. I guess somebody has to do it. The majority of Americans do not, otherwise Kerry would be president.
But go ahead. Get your applause where you can. But quit dumping on the president and the troops in your political frenzies. Next election you can nominate (again) Jimmy Carter and his submarine. I love peanuts too.
By Tracie
August 29, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
Wrong again Tabago, I meant dribble not like basketball, but like a child. I’m sure you will do what you damn well please, that’s the problem, let others do the same. How is that a right that only you can say what you want but everyone else is a Communist. You may be the real Communist, so don’t dish it if you can’t take it. For the record I am not a Liberal, I am a American with a brain, something you can’t claim. That’s the problem you are so caught up in labels, get a life.
By raylene
August 29, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
not that captain jack. lmao i meant captain jack sparrow
By Jack
August 29, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
Don’t cry for me Argentina….
By Lurker
August 29, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
Taboga, Ken, Dusty and Jack
but all they would be able to talk about is “those dang Liberals, they blah blah blah”
By Dusty
August 29, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this
Come on out of the bushes, Lurker. Even liberals are allowed to speak here. But you got it all wrong. We wouldn’t talk about queasy subjects like liberals. We would be nominating Jack for President.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
Lurker. Aren’t you the guy that stands behind people in the casinos waiting for them to get up from their slot machine so you can pounce in their seat after they fed the machine all of their money?
By Crown
August 29, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
God bless America! And nobody else!
By buildingbridges
August 29, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
Good monday you guys! :) Just now getting in the loop. I’m not going to say much yet because of time restraints just one comment:
SCT - made the statement “Would Jesus be saying “Lets kill some Iraqi’sâ€????”
Now where He may not specify the actual group of people…I invite anyone that makes this arguement to read the book of Nahem and then come back to talk about this. Where Jesus is “advertised” (for lack of a better word) as a peace loving, anti-war, “hippie” of his day, that Book shows a side of Him that supports, initiates and wins a war.
Now before flaming…note I am NOT saying that I think Jesus is supporting this war how am I supposed to have the authority to make a statement like that. However, there is a time for war (I would quote the bible about that but I don’t have mine here to look up the verse). Not everything in life is peaceful. I feel that the defending of our country after 9/11 attacks (IMHO that was the first punch in the fight) turned into a full blown ‘lets get them all while we are out here’ war. I have little problem with it seeing that I don’t want another thousands of people getting blown up because we did nothing about it. Yes I HATE that our soldiers are over there dying for us and I HATE that innocent people are caught in the crossfire but I don’t hate that we are over there fighting for a freedom, and yes it is a type a freedom. A freedom from fear and hiding out afraid of flying, working in tall buildings, etc.
Also, a fetus is only a fetus for 4 1/2-5 weeks, then it has a heartbeat. A lot of women don’t even know they are pregnent until after that.
I do think that Sheehan is doing an injustice to her sons memory. Of course I have no idea what he would be thinking or wishing but I would think he’s thinking that he died in vain, he went to fight for his mother and families freedom from terrorists and there she is dishonoring his efforts. Just my 2 cents about it. Again, I have no authority on the matter.
I would serve in a heartbeat if they would have me. But I’m stuck here praying for them instead.
By Jack
August 29, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Wouldn’t want to be prez. Would like to be King. 3 day work week, tailgaters shot, immediate punishment for crime. Yada,yada,ya!
By Lurker
August 29, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
Aren’t Casinos the Devil’s Workshop? Nope, never been in one.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 29, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
So who decides what is “American?” What does that mean? Is patriotism more important than truth?
By Argy
August 29, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this
Ken, Dusty and Jack would be the only ones left for me to converse with.
You forgot Boscoe, Zack, Randy, Angie, Crystal, and Heather! After all, someone’s got to balance out those leftist (but not communist) folk!
By taboga
August 30, 2005 07:43 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
I see the AJC is supporting yet another Communist idea. We now need to start subsidizing the cost of housing in Atlanta for the “working families”. Or as Karl Marx would have referred: The Proletariat.
Another interesting article about “obesity” as well. Maybe they can come up with a way to demand certain weight standards be maintained - in order to qualify for the subsidized housing?
But hey, there were no articles about the “schools” today. I guess it’s that one day of the quarter…
By Ken
August 30, 2005 07:57 AM | Link to this
Wow… A couple of afternoon meetings really makes one miss a great deal…
All definitions of “Just War” that I have ever read, although I have never read the specific UN Charter language, include some statements where one party must make moral judgements to their use of force. The definitions must make that statement because all possible outcomes cannot be pre-validated to create rules for “Just War”.
Those rules were put into place when we were truly in an era of country versus country. Nation versus nation. The enemy we are fighting now is not a nation in that sense where we can define boundaries, uniforms and specific populations. This enemy crosses the traditional national boundaries and therefore the decision making must change.
It appears that many people would like to call the actions of our government “illegal” unless the rest of the world gives us their blessing. Sorry I do not agree.
One more thing Brian…
Nixon didn’t take office until 1969. He was dealing with a mess that Kennedy and Johnson (and McNamara), two “great” Democrat Presidents started. By the time he was elected, their “Great Society” had already scuttled any chance this country had to win that war.
By Bruce
August 30, 2005 07:57 AM | Link to this
I found this paragraph in a USA Today report by Richard Benedetto dated 8/27/05. It makes me wonder just what Ms. Sheehan’s motives really are. I can see how she began this protest with the purest of motives , but now it seems the Democratic’s are using her as a poster child to stab the President in the back. If anyone is abusing Ms. Sheehan I would think it would be the liberial activist groups.
“Armed with a cadre of public relations handlers paid by liberal activist groups that support the Democratic Party and oppose Bush, she has repeatedly denounced the president in interviews and news conferences and charged that he flat-out lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in TV ads.”
By taboga
August 30, 2005 08:04 AM | Link to this
So who decides what is “American?� What does that mean? Is patriotism more important than truth?
Sandy,
The easiest way for you Leftists to understand what an American is: Think of everything that you despise…
…And that’s an American.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
Sometimes I wonder if Ms. Feldhahn and I are looking at the same reports from Pew Research. It seems to me that 46% of Americans want our troops home immediately; this number is up ten percentage points from October, and should this trend continue, those who want our troops home without delay will surely outnumber those who would prefer to wait.
Feldhahn also neglects to note that the Gallup poll with which she finds fault has asked the same questions since March of 2003, shortly after the onset of the war. It seems that people understood the question well enough to answer it in a way which pleased the pundits on the right two years ago; how can one actually call such a question leading, simply because it does not produce the same response as it did two years ago?
Take note of this question, also included in the Gallup poll: “All in all, do you think it was worth it going to war in Iraq, or not?” 57% of those polled say it was not, as opposed to 23% two years ago. This question is most assuredly not leading; rather straightforward, really.
Those are my comments on the actual articles; now, onto some of the other comments on the blog.
People, seriously, what are some of you smoking? Some of you guys sit around here, talking about how Cindy Sheehan is in the same league as “Hanoi Janeâ€? or Michael Moore, and they’re all traitors to the country or something. You people say this, and it honestly baffles me. I’m only 22, but jumpin’ Jesus on a pogo stick, I’m not that ignorant. Cindy Sheehan is sitting around, peacefully protesting. She’s hurting America as much as Martin Luther King, Jr. did when he led peaceful protests. (Historical tidbit: MLK was actually protesting against something ridiculously popular at the time - go figure!) Michael Moore makes movies. There’s a lot of speculation as to what actually went on with Jane Fonda and the North Vietnamese soldiers, so I’m not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole.
As for protestors “embolden[ing] the enemy,â€? that’s a load. I don’t think the terrorists turn on CNN, see Cindy Sheehan protesting, and say “Gee, Omar, look at that. Some Americans are protesting the war. That MUST be good for us, because we all know how much the American government cares about public opinion!â€? Okay, maybe it’s not exactly like that, but I’m sure some of you get what I’m saying.
I’m a bit frazzled from the hurricane (I’m in SC, so I’m not getting blown away, but a close friend lives in Waveland, MS and only evacuated to Hattiesburg), so I guess I’ve said about all I can think to say right now (it’s a wonder I can think at all.. no sleep.. argh!) except this: hi, Sandy!
By Ken
August 30, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this
Does anyone think Saddam would’ve allowed this BLOG?
What would’ve happened to folks who called him the same names folks call President Bush?
By Ken
August 30, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this
Jen… You make some interesting points about the poll questions and the various polls and their numbers but…
Are you serious…? You don’t think that terrorist groups watch CNN or monitor what is going on in our country…?
These groups have their own websites…! They act sub-human in their treatment of others, but they are highly advanced in their tactics. They use the media like Al Jazeera to get their message out to others like them. They most certainly use the media to monitor their enemy.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 08:24 AM | Link to this
Ken, I never said they don’t check out what our news has to say. I only meant to imply that they don’t draw as much out of it as some would like us to believe.
I honestly don’t believe they look at news reports of the division in this country and think that we’re weak. If they do, well, it’s a shame.. as much as the left may disagree with the right, we still love y’all, and we love our country.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this
I like to refer to members of the media as “vulture scum”.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this
Ken, America’s enemies can always see disagreement and division in America—it’s because we have freedom of expression. If they “take heart” from that, there’s really not much we can do about it except accept it as another price we pay for freedom.
There was disagreement in the 1860s, when we had a Civil War; there was disagreement during the populist movement, the Great Depression, Vietnam, the civil rights era, the battle for women’s suffrage… we’re America. We ALWAYS have lots of disagreement. And our enemies have always been able to see it.
To suddenly pretend that “now it’s different, so we’d better not publicly disagree” is to betray what America stands for. Americans will always disagree with each other—loudly. And we don’t really care what our allies or enemies think of the spectacle we put on, except to note “This is what a free society looks like.”
Don’t forget: liberals love this country even more than conservatives do. It’s the fundies and fascists who are anti-American.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this
‘vulture scum’… Really? Even though they’ve been shamefully negligent in their duty to investigate and challenge what the government does? Even though they swallowed every press release without question, refused to check facts, and pretty much acted like trained parrots to mouth everything the administration wanted reported, and squelched anything they wanted hushed up?
“Vultures” seems harsh. Perhaps “tools” would be more accurate.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this
Tools? You gotta be joking.
By Scalia
August 30, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this
I despise greed, selfishness, self-serving, judgemental people, but that is not all Americans.
There are some really good Americans that care about other people, and I’m not talking about the ones that donate money.
After 9-11, you really saw a country come together. People volunteered, and it showed the world that Americans despite our flaws really care for one another.
It really is sad that that mentality didn’t last. It so divided between which party is better, you are a communist for saying or doing this, who cares? How did we get here?
By Archie
August 30, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this
Brian Curtis you’re right that Americans have always disagreed loudly and I still haven’t gotten an answer as to how we embolden the enemy by protesting this war. Someone said divide and conquer,well we,Americans weren’t together in the first place. Shanti is a media person herself and I agree with Jen,the 22 year-old, that Shanti is just now complaining about a poll several years old because it doesn’t say what she wants. I don’t think the media has been hard enough on Bush but then they haven’t been tools either. The stupidity of CBS has made some media slow to go after some of the contradictions of the Bush administration.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this
Jen,
Let me help you out.
If someone had a friend or relative in the hospital and they were asked if they wanted that friend or relative to be able to come home today - what do you think they would say?
But on to a more important point. What kind of a nation would we be, if our decision-making was based on what a “poll” indicated - this week? And of what importance is there at all, about what the “American people” have to say in a “poll”? The overwhelming vast majority of Americans have no idea what’s going on in Iraq - so of what use is a “poll” about what the American people think about the War in Iraq?
The only “polls” that are of any value, are like those that were taken last November. We elected those that we want to make the decisions about things such as the War on Terror. And they are doing such. All other “polls” are completely and totally irrelevant.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
“The only “pollsâ€? that are of any value, are like those that were taken last November. We elected those that we want to make the decisions about things such as the War on Terror. And they are doing such. All other “pollsâ€? are completely and totally irrelevant.”
How very true.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
Brian… All groups love this country equally, only for different reasons. Don’t ever imply that you love it more than others b/c you’re a liberal and others are not. I would never equate love of country with political points of view. I will however, say when I think those points of view hurt or weaken our country.
You bring up some very interesting points, however, there is a difference when the disagreement occurs about internal issues and external issues.
Civil Rights. Women’s Suffrage. The Great Depression. Those were all internal issues that would not at all affect external groups.
However…
Disagreement during the Revolution nearly cost the colonies a chance at freedom. Had Washington succombed who knows what we would be today.
Disagreement during the Civil War very nearly cost the North a victory. Lincoln’s opponent in 1864, former General George McClellan ran on the platform that he would end the war. Had Sherman not secured victory in Atlanta, that very well may have happened.
Disagreement during WWII almost dearly cost the world. FDR desperately wanted to help the British but were not able to b/cthe US had not directly been attacked. Our allies asked for help then, and we refused. Why? B/C the public did not want to go to war. Even though it was the absolute right thing to do. How many men could have been spared? How many families could have been saved? How many holocaust victims could have been prevented?
Disagreement during WWI almost cost the world. See statement from above except for the holocaust victims.
Disagreement after WWII help to create the Cold War. What would’ve happened had we not bartered a deal with the Russians for Eastern Europe. We very well would not have the situation we have now, and very possibly would not have gone through the Cold War.
Great leaders (Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Patton) wanted to make decisions or needed to stick to their decisions against public opinion. History shows that they were right.
Those leaders had vision. President Bush has a vision. History may very well show that Bush was wrong. That will not be determined for a great number of years. However… History has shown us that vehement disagreement can severely hamper the ability of leaders to lead.
Discourse and discussion is one thing. What Cindy Sheehan and others of her ilk are quite another. I believe they have every right to do what they do. I simply believe they are myopic and do not understand entire consequencies of their actions.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this
Taboga, let’s clear something up. Polls are not irrelevant. In theory, polls help to give an idea of what public opinion is, concerning a certain event. When the public decides they’ve had enough, those in power, whose salaries are paid by the public, should at least pretend to take stock in what the public has to say.
I know people say this a lot, but if I were the President, I’d at least acknowledge recent polls, especially if they concerned something I’d done (or hadn’t done, as the case might be). However, Bush has said that he doesn’t take much stock in polls; it seems that he subscribes to your newsletter, Taboga.
And though I appreciate the thought, I don’t really need the “help.”
By taboga
August 30, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this
The Liberal mind (mind used with extreme caution) is quite a thing to behold.
Who is it out here that is screaming the loudest about disagreement? Who is it that is constantly whining about our right to disagree?
And what prompts all this? What prompts it, is that the Left wants to disagree with everything the Bush Administration is doing. And that is fine.
But as soon as anyone on the right, disagrees with their disagreement - they start yelling about the right to disagree!
Let me make it as simple as I can for you Lefty: You have every right to disagree with anything you want. Got it? And we have every right to disagree with you. Got that?
It is only you on the Left who are having a problem with the right to disagree!
You folks have gotten yourselves so convoluted - you’re arguing with yourselves…!
By Bruce
August 30, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this
Jen,
There is no speculation when it comes to what Jane Fonda did. It was all recorded on tape. And anyone that puts one ounce of credibility in what M. Moore has to say, in person or on film, has a few loose screws…….
By taboga
August 30, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this
I know people say this a lot, but if I were the President, I’d at least acknowledge recent polls, especially if they concerned something I’d done (or hadn’t done, as the case might be).
Translation of pablum: You are against the War. The polls favor your opinion for the time being. And so President Bush should bring the troops home.
Wouldn’t it be funny to watch our troops going back and forth across the Atlantic - every time the polls changed?
By Ken
August 30, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this
Jen… Polls are not irrelevent, however, people are very fickle and the poll numbers show that.
We have elections every year for various offices. We as citizens of this great nation have the ability to remove elected officials at that time.
Opinion polls may be useful in taking the pulse of the people or setting party platforms. The point of the posts though is that leaders cannot govern based on poll numbers. They cannot govern with the sole purpose of “being popular”. Then they would never make tough decisions. See President Clinton. He was widely popular, but IMHO, was largely irrelevent.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
Bruce, you’ll forgive me; I wasn’t exactly alive for the Vietnam War. I did a quick bit of research, and it turns out that Ms. Fonda did all she’d been accused of, with the exception of handing over paper slips with captors’ names. (Thank you, snopes.com!)
As far as Mr. Moore’s concerned, he’s an editorial filmmaker, much like Ms. Feldhahn or Ms. Glass would be, were they to be turned loose upon the world with a big budget and lots of cameras. He says what he believes, and that’s fine. If I watched a Michael Moore film, I’d do it not to get political advice, but to see the movie all my friends are watching.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
Taboga, I certainly hope you’re not a translator. If you are, please, quit your day job, ‘cos you totally read too much into what I said.
Bush sent the troops into war. The polls show that the American public is, for the most part, eager to bring the troops home, as they believe going to war in Iraq was a mistake. Bush should, at the very least, acknowledge this and say something other than “I don’t really care what polls say.”
By Jen
August 30, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this
Ken, I realize that people are quite fickle, and I’m not saying that policy should be dictated by what the current mood of the country is; far from it! I’m only trying to say that those in power should acknowledge public opinion.
By Renee
August 30, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this
No screws loose, but I actually like Michael Moore.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
Jen… What should Bush do to acknowledge the polls? Should he say…
“I know what the polls say but I believe we should follow a different course.” OR
“The people want the troops home so let’s bring them home.” OR
“The pools constantly change based on the progress we make so let’s do better.” OR…
Provide your own response.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Jen,
Leaders don’t follow “polls” - they lead. President Bush was re-elected as the Commander in Chief and has one hell of a job on his hands dealing with a region of the world that has been producing terrorists like hotcakes.
Leaders haven’t the time to bury themselves in silly “polls”.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this
Hey Jen—Glad you’re on board.
I found the interview transcript with David Brancaccio and Perry Jeffries:
BRANCACCIO: I was reading Reuters this week and I saw a quote from a Vietnam vet over at the VFW convention. And he thought that Cindy Sheehan can’t have it both ways. You can’t be against the war and for the troops. What are your thoughts on that?
PERRY JEFFERIES: Oh, I don’t think that’s right at all. I tell you I was in Iraq and we saw some of the peace protests that were done at that time. And I felt like people really cared about me because they were taking the time to address the issues. And get really involved and do something rather than just emit jingoistic slogans.
BRANCACCIO: And you’re not concerned that it somehow dishonors people who are working so hard over there, putting their lives at risk, when people question the policy there?
PERRY JEFFERIES: No, I think that’s why our people— that’s why our young men and women all are working over there. So that people can express that opinion. And we want that for the Iraqi people and we want to make sure we maintain that for us here too.
BRANCACCIO: Now the President of the United States said this week that the best way to honor people who are serving there, as well as those who have served, like yourself, is to stay the course and get the job done. What’s your reaction?
PERRY JEFFERIES: Well, I think what he’s done is he’s tried to set up a straw man and say that people there are advocating an absolute pullout.
BRANCACCIO: An immediate withdrawal?
PERRY JEFFERIES: Right. I don’t think that’s reasonable now. And I think that Mrs. Sheehan’s question is ‘what noble cause?’ And I think that’s an issue that needs to be addressed. And we accomplished all of the objectives that we said that we were going to Iraq for. So for what reason are we staying? Everybody talks about this course and winning. But no one can define it. And until we identify that problem and assess what we have to do to accomplish the goal. Our men and women are just idling in the kill zone. They’re just killing time over there. So we need to figure out what we’re doing there, make sure the American public agrees to do that, and will make the sacrifices necessary, and to give our men and women on the ground the resources they need. And when they come home then we need to make sure that they are taken care of properly.
BRANCACCIO: You’re saying the resources they need. But also what? A more clearly defined strategy? That’s what you’re asking for?
PERRY JEFFERIES: Exactly. There seems to be no real mission right now. We keep talking about winning and fighting terrorists. But terrorism is a technique. You can’t win against terrorism. We’ve talked about turning it over to the Iraqi Army and we’ve talked about the constitutional process. The original reasons that were given to the public are obviously not true. But the fact is we got about 140,000 of America’s best and brightest sitting in the desert and just sort of standing in a kill zone, waiting for something to happen so that they can react to it. They’re working hard. At the company level, each and every day they’re doing their little projects. They’re making schools. They’re building roads. But that’s not why we sent them there. That’s not why we’re spending that money. So we need to tell them what the goal is, what they have to achieve. The military will make a plan to accomplish that and you can get those people home.
BRANCACCIO: What about just the goal establishing political stability in Iraq? I mean that’s ostensibly what’s going on. That’s what we’re waiting for?
PERRY JEFFERIES: Well, that’s what they’re saying but that’s an awful amorphous goal. You can’t define that in metrics. Mr. Rumsfeld, the civilian head of the Pentagon right now, he comes from a corporate world where everything is measured. And every night our commanders in Iraq have to submit all kinds of data, reams of data and numbers to what they call a battle update brief. Where they keep track of what they’ve done that day. And yet there seems to be no metric that defines our success. And the only numbers we hear are changed constantly. How many Iraqi troops are trained. How many schools are built. How many soldiers are coming or going. We have the generals saying one thing. The civilian leadership saying another. And none it seems to make any sense. We need a hard and fast goal.
BRANCACCIO: Well, Perry Jefferies, I want to thank you for standing there in the hot sun for us and talking to us about these very important issues.
Interestingly, Jeffries and David Brooks (columnist) are in agreement with what needs to be done, according to a book by Andrew Kepineich, “…who asked his friends and former colleagues in the military a few simple questions: Which of the several known strategies for fighting insurgents are you guys employing in Iraq? What metrics are you using to measure your progress?
The answers have been disturbing. There is no clear strategy. There are no clear metrics.
…The fact is the US didn’t adopt this blindingly obvious strategy because it violates some of the key Rumsfeldian notions about the tye US military should operate in the 21st century.
Paraphrasing: Need heavy troop presence, not a light, lean force. It acknowledges taht while we go with our strengths, tech superiority, mobility, and firepower, the insurgents will exploit our weakness: the lack of usable intelligence (is he referring to Rumfeld here??? You judge.)
It means we have to think long-term. For fear of straining the armed forces, the military brass have conducted this campaign with one eye looking longingly for the exits. This “oil-spot” strategy would for us to acknowledge that this will be a long, gradual war.
(Oil spot in this context means spreading safe havens for military and civilians, not search and destroy missions to pick off insurgents.)
Sorry about the long post, but I thought these views are worth sharing.
If we’re not going to give our troops what they need, especially real military leadership, we never should have sent them, but having done that, we ought to bring them home if we’re only going to “stay the course.” Otherwise, despite their expertise and earnestness, we’re sentencing them to death and trauma to establish another muslim state that hates us. For what noble cause.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Ken, I realize that people are quite fickle, and I’m not saying that policy should be dictated by what the current mood of the country is; far from it! I’m only trying to say that those in power should acknowledge public opinion.
He has acknowledged it! He acknowledged that the majority of Americans re-elected him to continue to do what he has done.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
Taboga, do you have some sort of obsession with italicizing things?
Anyway.
I’m not sure what I’d want Bush to say to acknowledge the polls.. definitely something in-depth, lacking a condescending tone, and full of reasoning as to why staying the course would be a much better idea than pulling out now. I’m sitting here, trying to come up with how I’d want it worded, but I’m running on no sleep, so nothing’s coming to mind.
I wouldn’t want him to be buried in polls, Taboga. Nor would I want him to follow them and make decisions on them — just like I said earlier. I just want to understand, and I’m not sure I ever will.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
Ken: You’re right that vehement disagreement can hamper leaders’ ability to lead.
What you’re missing is that this is a good thing when the leader is WRONG. Plenty of our leaders have also made disastrously bad decisions and mistakes—and often were unwilling to acknowledge or correct them until public opinion forced the issue. McKinley, Harding, Nixon, Wilson, Reagan… they all made bad choices.
And they all needed public dissent to hold them accountable and remind them that they serve us, not the other way around.
By Renee
August 30, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this
Leaders should take the time to acknowledge the polls. After all, the people elected him and the people participated in the polls. He acknowledges the polls he wants to, like the voter polls “elected” him into office (and I use the word elected loosely)
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
Jen: Taboga’s only obsession is with displaying his whining, pathetic blather at every opportunity. In other words, he’s a troll. He can’t debate, so he’s retreated into sniping and sniveling, hoping to provoke reactions.
Just ignore him. Debate with Ken, who has a working brain. Or Bruce, who’s at least capable of making a point once in awhile.
By Jen
August 30, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this
Haha. I was picking up on that, Brian, but thanks for the advice. :)
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this
Here’s what Republicans said about Clinton and Kosovo:
Why did they second-guess our commitment to freedom from genocide and demand that we cut and run?
“President Clinton is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)
“No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That’s why I’m against it.”
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99
“American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy.”
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of presidential candidate George W. Bush
Why did they demoralize our brave men and women in uniform?
“I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning…I didn’t think we had done enough in the diplomatic area.”
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
“You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo.”
-Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99
“Well, I just think it’s a bad idea. What’s going to happen is they’re going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years”
-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarifiedrules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?”
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
Why didn’t they support our president in a time of war?
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
“This is President Clinton’s war, and when he falls flat on his face, that’s his problem.”
-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN) “You can support the troops but not the president”
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
“My job as majority leader is be supportive of our troops, try to have input as decisions are made and to look at those decisions after they’re made … not to march in lock step with everything the president decides to do.”
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
For us to call this a victory and to commend the President of the United States as the Commander in Chief showing great leadership in Operation Allied Force is a farce” -Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
Why did they blame America first?
Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly.”
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX) Clinton’s bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode”
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
“America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo’s capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country”
-Pat Buchanan (R)
“These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark …who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton.”
-Michael Savage
“America has no vital interest in whose flag flies over Kosovo’s capital, and no right to attack and kill Serb soldiers fighting on their own soil to preserve the territorial integrity of their own country”
-Pat Buchanan (R )
“By the order to launch air strikes against Serbia, NATO and President Clinton have entered uncharted territory in mankind’s history. Not even Hitler’s grab of the Sudetenland in the 1930s, which eventually led to WW II, ranks as a comparable travesty. For, there are no American interests whatsoever that the NATO bombing will either help, or protect; only needless risks to which it exposes the American soldiers and assets, not to mention the victims on the ground in Serbia.”
-Bob Djurdjevic, founder of Truth in Media
Let’s hope that DeLay’s and Santorum’s hypocrisy will cost them at the “real polls…”
By Jack
August 30, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this
Jen. If you read Brian Curtis’ posts this week you will see that he lives in fantasyland. He wishes he possessed the intelligence of others on this blog that he disagrees with. He typically resorts to bad-mouthing those posters to which he dislikes. He who lives in glass houses should never throw stones.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
Sandy: Well, clearly all those guys are anti-American and hate freedom! After all, they questioned the president in a time of war and demoralized the troops, thereby encouraging the enemy with their display of divisiveness…
Oh, wait. All that simpleminded drivel only applies when it’s THEIR guy in the Oval Office. I forgot.
By Hasell Brown
August 30, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
Dissent is a right…AND and obligation in this country, but currently, if one disagrees with the Administration, one is deemed unpatriotic, un-American, liberal….et al. Many people forget the derivations of liberal/conservative. Liberal comes from the word liberate, which means * “to free, to make free; to unleash” *…and conservative comes from conserve..meaning *”to keep; to maintain the status quo.” * What I now see is that more people are worried about maintaining the status quo…even if it’s based on a lie, rather than freeing the nation by stating the truth. Remember, patriot also has the word RIOT in it….and a riot is dissent in the extreme form; therefore, to be patriotic, it’s REQUIRED to dissent. Whether it’s the Bush family conflict (i.e., the “War on Terror”) or Democratic/Republican policies, as Americans, we MUST dissent in order to effect change.
By Archie
August 30, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
Thanks Sandy for your 10:06 am post. I ask again how does protest encourage the enemy? I also read the information on snopes.com and this Sheehan is nowhere near a parallel to Jane Fonda.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
Jen,
I know the problem you are having. You cannot recognize war for what war is.
You see the elements of war and you confuse that with losing the war.
You see people dying and so that means to you: We are losing. You see chaos and that also means to you, that we are losing or not doing the right thing.
What you are seeing, is what war is and has always been: Chaotic death and destruction compounded by one mistake after the next.
There’s no magic to all of this. You folks see some obstacles along the way which means things are not going perfectly (and they never do), so you want to throw in the towel and bring everyone home!
If we were to leave Iraq today - the Jihadists would be screaming victory from every mountaintop! And they would be right! And you can damn well bet, that if that were to happen, you could write-off that entire region of the world as nothing but an ever-increasing swarm of terrorists who would occupy and dominate every single thing over there!
Because there would be no one left to stop them…
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
Sandy, obviously it is foggy up there on the mountain top. If you don’t know the meaning of American, patriotism and truth, any explanations would be irrelevant. Vary your reading a bit. Liberals write as liberals think. Try something new and different.
Jen, Taboga has an obsession with the truth, a characteristic not favored by liberals. Take a poll on that. Otherwise you might have to think for yourself.
By Mara
August 30, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this
Now we see tabogas’ true colors and exactly what his definition of “American” is… taboga - The easiest way for you Leftists to understand what an American is: Think of everything that you despise… And that’s an American He really thinks that to be his kind of “American” you must be a misogynistic, dictatorial, animal torturing christo-fascist hypocrit that likes to rape babies and beat old people? No wonder most of the world “hates America”. By that definition, I’m glad I’m not American enough for taboga in his ilk. Far better, I think, to be one of those “tree-huggin, hybrid drivin’, love-yer-neighbor, equality advocatin’ Bush hatin’ libruls”
By Ken
August 30, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
Brian… Who’s to say that this President is WRONG? You think he’s wrong. I think he’s made some good and some not so good choices. Others think he’s right. We won’t know the final outcome for a very long time.
The point is, elected leaders must be given the opportunity to see their vision through to the end. Some will hold their line longer than others.
How long did post-war reconstruction take in Europe? In Japan?
How long did it take for the colonies to draft the our current Constitution?
These things take time. The President miscalculated on the length of time and the amount of effort necessary to complete reconstruction. That does not mean this has been a failure.
Personally, this is going on about what I figured. In fact, it’s going slightl better. Unfortunately, the American public is so used to instant gratification, that they do not have the stomach or the patience for long, hard work.
Also..
Not sure how to take your comment about my having a “working brain”. Sounded very condesending, but I will assume you were actually taking a jobe at someone and not me since I’ve never resorted to name calling, especially to you.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
Brian… Who’s to say that this President is WRONG? You think he’s wrong. I think he’s made some good and some not so good choices. Others think he’s right. We won’t know the final outcome for a very long time.
The point is, elected leaders must be given the opportunity to see their vision through to the end. Some will hold their line longer than others.
How long did post-war reconstruction take in Europe? In Japan?
How long did it take for the colonies to draft the our current Constitution?
These things take time. The President miscalculated on the length of time and the amount of effort necessary to complete reconstruction. That does not mean this has been a failure.
Personally, this is going on about what I figured. In fact, it’s going slightl better. Unfortunately, the American public is so used to instant gratification, that they do not have the stomach or the patience for long, hard work.
Also..
Not sure how to take your comment about my having a “working brain”. Sounded very condesending, but I will assume you were actually taking a jibe at someone else and not me since I’ve never resorted to name calling, especially to you.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this
Jack: I’ve reviewed this week’s forum, and I don’t see anywhere I’ve insulted you. I cracked a joke about your ability to commune with dead soldiers, noted where you were wrong (about there being no such thing as “illegal orders”), and suggested that you would not make a good soldier yourself.
But as for insults? I’ve only insulted Robertson (a lunatic), Bush (a criminal incompetent), and of course taboga—a cowardly liar. Robertson can take criticism, Bush can’t, and taboga won’t understand it anyway.
You made several good points on here, but then wandered into “soldiers always support their mission” territory—which I can tell you is not true. I come from a military family, Jack; my dad was a Marine, and my brother just finished 20 years as an Army pilot. They both know the difference between “following orders” and serving as a real soldier who upholds the laws and regulations of the U.S. military. That includes deliberately disobeying commanders who make mistakes or bad decisions.
Now, as to this week’s topic: it seems we’ve covered it pretty thoroughly. Despite the war-hawks’ best efforts, more and more Americans are realizing that this war was a mistake; it was unnecessary; and it should be ended immediately. The pro-war crowd is losing their grip on the country (only months after losing their grip on reality). Dissent is working exactly as it should: putting pressure on the government to change a bad policy.
And if you have a problem with dissent… then basically, you have a problem with America.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
Ken: Not at all. I was holding you up as an example of a sane, rational person on the opposing side of this issue. Sorry if I gave a different impression.
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this
Has Mara gone off the deep end or just forgotten to take her medicine? Either way, she is a disgrace to both liberals and conservatives. A very sad individual indeed.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this
That was your Dad and your brother. How have you served this country?
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
Sandy/S, you rock! Love the 10:06 collection of quotes. Funny though, how Dusty and them don’t have a single thing to say about all their great GOP leaders talking out both sides of their faces depending on whether it’s their frat-boy leader in charge or someone else. Anyone want to defend the FLAMING HYPOCRACY of Delay, Santorum, Lott, Hughes for Bush, Scarborough, Hannity the Whore, and the rest of these great leaders on these quotes? Anyone? Anyone?
By SteveSC
August 30, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
The President’s supporters who keep coming back to the “poll last November” should remember that there’s another poll coming up in November, 2006, and the results could be quite different. They could range from an increased Republican majority in House and Senate all the way to a bill of impeachment against the President. Of course, this presumes that the Democrats can locate both their brains and their courage.
By Naimah Muhammad
August 30, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this
Yes, antiwar protestestors are discouraged. It is really funny and ironic that troops are over in Iraq to demand that they have freedoms such as speech, and here we are in America trying to deny that right to our own citizens. That should be discouraging to troops, not Cind Sheehan or any other protestor!
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Dusty, my question was an attempt to get people to really think about what being American means to them, as I expect it means different things to different people. If one is going to accuse someone of being Anti-American and unpatriotic and a traitor, they must be using some definition of patriotism. Unless it’s like obscenity, you know it when you see it…
But I see you’ve no comment on the second part of the question, Is patriotism more important than truth?
As for reading, at least I read. I do as much reading as I can from many angles, and actually agree with David Brooks at times. (I sheepishly admit that I read Ann Coulter’s books so that my libary record, if reviewed under the PATRIOT act, might confuse anyone who thinks I am a threat to the nation…insert tongue firmly in cheek). Brief review: she’s still fightning the Cold War and calling New Yorkers cowards…
Funny thing about reading opposing views, I am more often than not reassured that my views and subsequent actions are moral, compassionate, and caring, and contribute to the greater good, unlike the harsh knee-jerk judgments our society rewards.
And Dusty, I think you’re confusing obsession with obfuscation with truth. Jen is a bright woman; she’ll make her own astute and accurate assessments of the bloggers, eloquently and thoughtfully.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
Kimberly. You are smart enough to know that ALL politicians are liars. Left, right & middle.
Steve. We’ll see come November.
By Tracie
August 30, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
Some of you act like Bush is GOD, he is neither, he is a man, one that has made some good decisions and some not so good decisions, but it’s just astonishing that your support for him requires you to heap disgust on those that don’t like him. It’s down right retartded, because anyone with half a brain could figure out that all of our Presidents, no matter what their party or popularity level made mistakes, it is a tough job leading a country. However as citizens of this great country it is our right and duty to let them know when we don’t agree with their decisions. These are choices that impact us and it’s simply ridiculous to just follow like blind sheep. It is also hypocritical to condem one party for immoral things(Kennedy,Clinton), when we all know the other party has skeletons also(Nixon,Newt). Every so-called Liberal is not for the common man and every Conservative does not have a lock on morality and if you guys think so, you’re fooling yourselves.
And another thing, to all of you that like to label yourself and others (Lefty,righty, communists, facists, etc.), what’s wrong with just being an American, oh maybe you need something to hide behind because you need to align yourself with something to feel important and righteous!
By Ken
August 30, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
SteveSC… You’re absolutely correct about the “poll” in November 2006. Many Bush supporters may either choose to not vote or vote for the opposition.
The question will be, however, is whether or not the Iraq issue will be enough to defeat the President’s party at that time.
Who’s to say that the US will not be pulling out of Iraq by then? Perhaps other issues will surface? That’s the whole point of taking opinion polls and not putting alot of credence into them. They are a snapshot of public opinion at a particular time.
For example… The Iraqi parliament was able to pass a draft Constitution approved by nearly 80% of the population. If the media presented that stat, we would get a sense of progress in Irag.
Instead we get the message that the Sunni folks are in opposition to the draft constitution and are protesting it. Same story from two differing view points. One is designed to show the negative. One is designed to show the positive. Both are true. Public opinion is driven by these stories.
The main reason I don’t meditate too much on the opinion polls is that very few people have their own opinions. People have become parrots for either CNN or Fox and rarely have views of their own.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
Yes Steve, there will be another poll in November 2006.
And if the Liberals can’t make any progress once again, we’ll be treated to the same spilled milk: “Electronic voting machines are rigged”, “Karl Rove stole the election”, “The American people are stupid” (of course, see how they are not stupid now when the so-called “polls” go the libs way?), “Rush Limbaugh has Conservatives under a spell”, “Blacks and other minorities were denied their right to vote”, “The Blue States need to seceed from the Union”, “Republicans used smear tactics (on a yet-to-be-named Democrat “War Hero”)”, “We need a paper trail for the ballots”…
…And just about any other whining little juvenile absurdities that the losers can come up with. Nothing will change.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
Yes, antiwar protestestors are discouraged. It is really funny and ironic that troops are over in Iraq to demand that they have freedoms such as speech, and here we are in America trying to deny that right to our own citizens. That should be discouraging to troops, not Cind Sheehan or any other protestor!
For the megabillionth and first time - who is being denied their right to free speech?
By Ben
August 30, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
“These things take time. The President miscalculated on the length of time and the amount of effort necessary to complete reconstruction. That does not mean this has been a failure.”
You are absolutely right! But without getting into the mistakes, wouldn’t you agree that after making those “miscalculations” he should makes the necessary moves to make up for inadequacies.
That’s part of the problem, he is getting more than he bargained for, but is not doing what is necessary, like increasing the forces and going on the offensive.
By Renee
August 30, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this
Well Bush did STEAL the presidency for his first term.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
That’s part of the problem, he is getting more than he bargained for, but is not doing what is necessary, like increasing the forces and going on the offensive.
Ben,
Let’s suppose you are right. Then what would be a logical reason for President Bush not increasing forces and going on the offensive - if that is what is needed?
Are we to assume that his military commanders are asking for more troops - yet he is stubbornly denying their requests?
Could it be, that more troops are not being asked for because the commanders who are there do not see additional troops as being the answer?
By Ben
August 30, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this
Well Taboga, military commanders had issue with the amount of troops from the beginning. Truth is, everybody remembers how easily we stomped over Iraq in the 90s and assumed it would be that easy. No one considered the amount of resistance we are now facing. Troops numbers, at this point, is just something to consider in hindsight. Had we sent the right amount of troops (and protection) in the first place our forces wouldn’t be so strained.
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this
Sandy, a blog is supposed to make us think. Unfortunately, it often becomes more pugnacious than intelligent.
I don’t feel the need to decide whether patriotism is more important than truth. Truth is the honest basis of life, usually defined and recognized by human beings. Patriotism is putting a flag on a soldier’s grave and knowing what he died for. These definitions can be turned to support liberals or conservatives. Take your pick. I decide for myself.
Keep reading, Sandy, I do and always have. I just don’t go around quoting all of it.
By Idiot finder
August 30, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this
taboga……youre an idiot……I wish they were no freedom of speech…or better yet I wish you had a life…..get out of here you try to disagree with everybody….we should send you to Iraq
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this
That’s a bit out of line, IdiotFinder. Taboga has the same right as anyone to expose his stupidity and air his nonsensical “views.” And we have the right to ignore him. Otherwise, what good is liberty?
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
Dusty, thank you for illustrating my point. We should all decide for ourselves. That’s what Cindy Sheehan is doing, so why is her patriotism being questioned?
I don’t quote all of what I read either, but you caught me on a cut and paste sort of day. Somtimes it helps one’s argument to supply source material. I find it a much more effective way to inform and communicate than simply resorting to barbs and insults.
By Tony
August 30, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this
When men or women make honest choices, families should respect those choices and honor them, whether the girl they married or the peril they accepted, as due course.
When men and women volunteer to take the pledge to serve country, right or wrong, your home becomes the service and war, any war, your profession.
If you argue this is wrong, I point out that we have never been free of armies since before the flood. We have soldiers because the human race always had to have them. We are not a peaceful species, and some tribes always permit the others no peace. Spartan mothers, it is said, told their sons to return with their shield or upon them. In other words, death before dishonor.
Our culture does not allow us to say such things today. But the distinguishing character still lives. Which is why we honor the valiant dead. Using them to protest using slanderous inanities serves no honorable position.
Congress and the American people overwhelmingly agreed that Saddam was a threat to our security because of his lust to acquire and reacquire WMD’s, his prior use of them on us and his own people, and his willingness to use them against us and our allies. His abiding hatred for the United States and his harboring of and support for terrorist exacerbated his dangerousness to the United States. That we have been unable to find WMD stockpiles in Iraq doesn’t mean President Bush lied about their existence, nor does it change the propriety of our decision based on what we knew at the time. The fact that Democrat leaders have conveniently denied they assessed Saddam’s threat to be at least as grave as President Bush did, both at the time of the attack and years before, does not erase from history their well documented and forcefully expressed opinion to that affect.
The antiwar left has finally succeeded in turning public opinion against the war with their endless assaults and distortions, however, except for a few extremist, they know we can’t legitimately withdrawal until Iraq is stable, to do so would be disastrous to the United States.
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this
Jack, All MEN are liars. (And many women.) But wasn’t talking about lies. The quotes of Delay, Santorum and the bunch are not about lies, they statements of a position on an issue that they changed completely when it was their puppet boy calling the shots, and not the President they all hated because he was actually better at his job than most of the liars that hold it.
Nonetheless, as I’ve said before: A GENTLEMAN lies about sex. Hello!! What kind of man lies to start a war with a people who never attacked us? Certainly not a gentleman.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
Kimberly… I take a great deal of offense to that remark. I have never lied to you, and I resent the fact that you would make such a bold statement.
I wonder what the women on this BLOG would say if some man posted:
All women are “insert item here.”
By Bobby
August 30, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this
My Grandson is a 2nd Lt and is at FOB Duke in Iraq. I e-mailed him to find out what the troops thought about Sheehan. He said they weren’t paying any attention to her. He regets she lost her son but he volunteered like all the rest in Iraq. He said that he swore to defend the US against ALL ENEMIES. He also says Bush was right to take out Hussein. He says the American prople should see the conditions of the poor. Little children coming up to the troops with their hand to their mouths wanting something to eat. They give them their own rations. He said to not pay any attention to the news services because they only show the bad things. His tour will be up December but is talking about volunteering for another 6 months. He says morale is high among the troops.
By Ben
August 30, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this
Tony quick question: I’ll make it multiple choice for you. Who poses (or posed) a greater threat to our security because of their lust to acquire and reacquire WMD’s, and his willingness to use them against us and our allies.
a) Saddam Hussein in Iraq
b) Ill Kim in Korea
c) Osama bin Hidin for years whereever he is, or;
d) Iran
By Argy
August 30, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
e) Pakistan?
By Idiot finder
August 30, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
I’m only being American like taboga stated……to paraphrase “being American is everything that liberals despise”…equality for all, freedom of speech no matter what your opinion
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
Ken, please don’t take offense. I was going to elaborate, but then I would have been off point, as was Jack when he responded that all politicians are liars.
Everyone lies, but lies are not created equal. For example, “I got caught in traffic” or “I was at Bobby’s house,” or “It was good for me too,” or “I didn’t hear the phone,” or “I have a previous commitment,” or “It’s not you, it’s me…” Heh…
People lie to avoid inconvenience or embarrassment, or hurting someone’s feelings, or getting fired, to avoid getting caught or divorced, and so forth. Then there’s lying on your taxes. Then there’s lying that you didn’t see who shot that man. Then there’s saying someone beat you up or raped you when they didn’t.
There are many levels of lies, and I wasn’t trying to start a man-bashing thread. Still, in my opinion, the lies that cost lives are the worst.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Ben… The question is not who’s more dangerous at that time. That is the wrong question to ask. They’re ALL dangerous and they all need to be removed.
The real question is how to we rid the world of all four choices. This Administration decided to take out Saddam first and use it as part of a global strategy.
Don’t be so myopic. Try to look further down the road and project the possibilities. Some of the possibilities are good. Some of them are bad. Still this was merely step one of many.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this
Kimberly… Your assertion of “lie” assumes there was intent to deceive, not merely a mistake. It also asserts that it is not merely and embellishment of the truth but an out and out lie.
That is where I disagree with many people here. I do not believe anyone “lied”. I believe mistakes were made. I believe there were embellishments of the truth. But I do not believe anyone lied.
I also do not believe it productive for anyone to continue down that road until that fact can be proven. It is simply not productive. Rather than that, why not deal with the situation at hand? Because rather than working together, the two sides in this country want power rather than results. The opposition party (now the Democrats) will do anything to discredit Bush. The same as the Republicans with Clinton.
Libs, Conservatives, Moderates, etc. They all want the exact same thing. They simply want to get there in different ways. If all of the folks on this board gave their vision of America, I suspect many of them would be identical. The road to get there, however, would be very, very different.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Ken, don’t you think the administration ought to have concentrated on finding Bin Laden and taking down Al Quaeda first, before even considering Saddam? I mean, their attack on us was the “real” reason for going to war. Looking further down the road, had we carried out that mission, maybe the Spain and England attacks could have been prevented. Had we not been seen as an occupier in Iraq, Al Quaeda recruitment would not be better than the US military’s.
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this
Okay, the “situation at hand” is that our forces are occupying a foreign land. The only way to beat an “insurgency,” (that is, natives to the land you’re occupying who want you to go away) is to KILL THEM ALL. Or, as white men did here, kill most of them, wipe out their culture, and cripple them with disease and alcohol. If the Chinese invaded Kennesaw (which they might, when the US can’t repay the billions we’ve borrowed from them), then the people there would fight to the very last standing junior-high defensive tackle.
The SITUATION, Ken, is that Saddam has been in jail for nearly two years, and the US is trying to place Islamic extremists in power over there.. but only the pre-approved, puppet-willing ones. You want to promote freedom? Give them their country back! They will keep blowing up our soldiers until we do.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this
Sandy… Potentially. That is one scenario. If we had Osama, then definitely a good idea. Who’s to say we would have caught him by now. Who’s to say that if we took out Osama, some other person wouldn’t rise up, like Zarqawi did in Iraq. There are many, many scenarios.
I believe this Administration felt that having a democratic government in the midst of that region would be a greater asset than heading over all the place looking for Osama. They toppled Saddam in weeks, just like they predicted. I simply believe they miscalculated the aftermath. Hindsight is always 20/20.
By Ben
August 30, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Ken - I know they are all dangerous but it IS important to consider who posed the greatest threat, and I find it hard to believe that someone who may have WMD is more of a threat than someone who DOES.
I’m not being myopic and I look further down the road and I see how we have mismanaged the military and the effect it has if one of the other four got froggy. It will take a long time to militarily “recoop” from the effects of Iraq. And we would be hard-pressed to fight a “structured” military such as Korea’s on the ground, considering it’s size, sources and possible allies.
And don’t give me this crap about “the Administration decided” to do anything. They decided to remove Saddam and make Iraq a democracy. Their obvious lack of a plan clearly indicates that. And considering the hostility the U.S. faces from that region, it is hardly a strategic center with non-allies surrounding the country. Why would we need Iraq when we already have Japan and the allies to the north?
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
And YES, there certainly WAS INTENT TO DECIEVE!
Ask yourself, would rich men lie and kill to have more $$$ billions if they thought they could get away with it? No? At what point in the history of mankind did that cease to be true?
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
Sandy, I do not think someone detrimental to troops in wartime is patriotic. Because Sheehan decided otherwise doesn’t make me agree with her brand of patriotism. Nobody has stopped her from protesting or speaking. Nobody has stopped me from speaking. I can still disagree with her.
Furthermore, until I am a general in the army, I will not be advising the president on military matters.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
Kimberly… The problem is you can’t prove your assertion.
There are many rich people who are just the opposite. Ted Turner is a wonderful human being. Philanderer, but generous with his resources. So is Bill Gates. There’s jsut a couple.
Lest we also forget who the two wealthiest men on the ticket were last year? Any takers? Kimberly? Kerry and Edwards. Maybe if they had won, we would’ve had some large conflict that required lots of junk litigation or caused a billion gallon shortfall of ketchup.
Bottom line is you don’t like Bush. You don’t like Cheney and rather than try to look objectively you want to bring them down. That’s fine. That’s your right. Enjoy it b/c you’ll get to continue for another few years.
By Bruce
August 30, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
Bobby,
Your Grandson must make you very proud. Thank you for sharing that with us.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
Ah, Kimberly, thank you for the segue. Speaking of rich men, perhaps we also ought to be questioning whether the privitization of this war has helped or hindered our mission. How is it that soldiers have access to big screen TVs and video games, food courts, supplied by the the contracting companies, but they don’t have the night vision goggles and armor they need? Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying take pleasure away from our soldiers, they deserve whatever stress relief they can find. But the question remains, is this the best use of the resources? I’d rather they be properly armed than have an extra flavor of ice cream available…
By Naimah Muhammad
August 30, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Kimberly——-Thanks A Million! Here’s a thought….the US and its army in reality only threaten themselves. How much do we frighten or scare the opposition? 9/11 happened (no questions about that)…and Im pretty sure whether or not US troops stay in Iraq or retreat, if there were another attack planned on the US it will take place. Do you know how many countries are true and blue enemies to America. To fight the “war on terrorism”, it might be beneficial to protect US soil and not to terrorize other peoples land. Whether you agree on immediately leaving IRaq or staying you might agree with this scenario: You own 10 guard dogs. If seven of your dogs are in other peoples backyards how easy is it to know attack your yard? If all of our soldiers are either dead from fighting in Iraq, or are physically in Iraq…who wil protect us when we get attcked?
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Yes, you’re right Ken. Not all rich men are evil. Thank you. Not all rich men are oil barons, bankers, congressmen, and insurance executives who are raping us economically at every possible opportunity while prompting us to focus on our “patriotism.” Thanks for straightening me out, Ken!
Bottom line is you love Bush. You love Cheney and rather than try to look objectively, you want to elevate them to a status of righteousness and integrity they don’t actually have. That’s fine. That’s your right. Enjoy it b/c you’ll get to answer for it sooner than you think!
By Jack
August 30, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Oh Mercy!
By Zack
August 30, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Brian—Yes, I mention abortion a lot, and no, I didn’t fail in making a good point. It’s extremely hypocritical for war protesters to make a scene about war when they ignore the war on the unborn. (For the record, there ARE just wars; abortion is never just.)
War protests SHOULD be discouraged. They do no good and hurt the morale of the soldiers. Heck, we have a COUNTRY BECAUSE of a war (the Revolutionary War), although I guess most high school students today don’t even know that.
I’ve said it before and will again, Brian. You’re a smart guy, but you let your own ignorance get in your way, and you’d be better off if you’d release it because you KNOW deep down that you’re wrong.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
The war is being fought on the other side of the world by volunteers. American’s lives have gone uninterrupted and we’ve had to sacrifice nothing. And no attacks on us since 9/11.
Saddam has been thrown out. The Iraqi’s have had elections to establish their government. They are now working on a Constitution and the country is being rebuilt as we speak.
And according to the Left - the sky is falling…
By Jack
August 30, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
Brian Curtis. Ask your Dad or your brother when they were in the military if they were allowed to pick and choose which orders they were to obey. Ask them what would happen if they did not obey a direct order.
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Mad dogs and liberals come out in the midday sun.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Actually Kimberly, I don’t love Bush or Cheney…
In fact I disagree with them on MANY issues including the environment, their deficit spending, their handling of the borders and immigration, gay marriage, I could go on. If you read my posts about this subject and compared it to others you would see that.
If you read my posts you would also see that I do look objectively at the issue and even believe this Administration has made mistakes. I NEVER said they didn’t.
I simply, however, agree more with their vision of how to deal with terrorism than with the Democrats’ vision.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
“Bring ‘em on” could be construed as detrimental to our troops in wartime, too.
By some measure, I agree with you. Those who mowed and removed the crosses down at Arlington West are not preventing Sheehan and others from speaking or protesting, but simply firming their resolve…
The thing about this president is that you’d have a better chance of advising him as a civilian, you know, like Rumsfeld. Bush ignored the advice of General Shinseki, and look where we are. Look where we are and he still has no plan except to stay the course and that it’s going to be hard.
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.â€?
-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
By Archie
August 30, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
I am sorry Ken but Bush did lie and he didn’t embellish the truth. Bush said he knew Iraq had WMD’S, Bush specifically said they had been found in 2003 but at the time no such weapons had been found and he could not have known Iraq had WMD’s. It wasn’t a mistake because he had been told by the CIA that there was no proof. He mentioned Niger and uranium in a speech when he had been told months earlier that the information from Britain was a forgery. That information was removed from a speech and then put back in. Ms Rice herself said she did not know how the Niger claim got back into his speech before the American people. Bush said Iraq was 6 months away from developing a nuclear weapon but no expert backs up that claim and of course there is no proof Iraq ever had the ability to deliver missiles to reach the USA.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Ken. My sentiments exactly.
By Naimah Muhammad
August 30, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Taboga Im beginning to agree with the others about you!
Since u love to cut in paste this one is for you! “The war is being fought on the other side of the world by volunteers. American’s lives have gone uninterrupted and we’ve had to sacrifice nothing. And no attacks on us since 9/11.” 1) Does uninterruption include gas at 3.00 a gallon and 70 dollars a barrel. 2)Does uninterruption include interruption of television shows to show a news update on more dead soldiers or more dead Iraqi’s (Before you state that a television show is an uninterruption…please note how Americans love their convenience and you have 3 million + viewers watching CSI or Lost, while those people probably dont even vote) 3)Does sacrificing nothing include “ALL” of the lives we’ve lost in this war. Lives who were dear to their families. Lives who contribute to society socially, academically and economically, and since they were soldiers in the US army…politically. Since Americans are on the up and up why are we fighting this war according to you? 4)And my point still remains, if there was/is a scheduled attack on the US realistically (b/c that seems kinda hard for you) will the US presence in Iraq stop those planned attcks…….SIDEBAR……And just because SOME soldiers are volunteers does that make their lives dispensable? Im sure Bobby and his grandson will not agree or Cindy Sheehan!
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
Hmmm… Points taken, Ken. But if you can’t trust ‘em to spend our money responsibly, or to protect the only planet we currently have access to, or to secure our borders, or to keep government out of our bedrooms, then WHY would you trust that they’ve dealt honestly with a war that’s making them RICH?
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this
Bruce, thank you for finding the right thing to say to Bobby. My hubris got in the way.
By lozen
August 30, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
Tracie, your 11:10am comments are exactly right. Let’s hear more from you.
By George and Jesus
August 30, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
“American’s lives have gone uninterrupted and we’ve had to sacrifice nothing.” -That’s the saddest thing about this war. And that’s why there is such a huge disconnect. Both my grandfather’s fought in world war 2. One was in his late thirties with two children when he enlisted - because he believed in the cause so much! Both my father and I served in the military as well (neither in a war). I’ve yet to meet anyone over 25-who wasn’t already in the military or reserves- to enlist. People “support” the war but they don’t want to fight it. They won’t leave their house or their job or their family. I know some of you on this blog have honorably served our country and I respect you for that.
For the others, what’s wrong with sacrifice - many of the religious folks on this blog are familiar with the sacrifices Jesus made? Ken, you talk about fiscal responsibility - why not tax for this war? I’d support that. Or ration the amount of fuel that can be consumed? The problem we have is none of the armchair quarterbacks on the left or right need to be involved at all. All I read is “I’m a patriot,” no “I’m patriot,” “NO I’m the biggest patriot.” But yet, very few of you have done anything, except make yourselves feel better.
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
Ahh, Zack: Why exactly should protestors be discouraged when the founding of this nation was an act of protest? I guess most high-school graduates today don’t know that either, huh?
Zack, you try to be a good guy, but you let your own ignorance get in your way. You’d be better off if you release it, because you KNOW deep down you’re wrong.
Productive exchange, wasn’t it? You’re not going to change my mind on abortion, and it’s not because I’m ignorant or blind. It’s because I don’t share your religious convictions and don’t see any reason that your personal beliefs should be made into a law that has sway over the rest of us.
By Ben
August 30, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Amen George
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
Jack: I’ve already discussed that very issue with them�that’s where I got my knowledge of the code of military justice and the importance of thinking for yourself even as a soldier… not blindly obeying every command. A trained, thoughtful soldier is valuable to the service; an unthinking drone is not.
If you disobey a direct order, you’re relieved of duty, brought up on charges, and may face prison and possible discharge. BUT… if the order itself was found to be illegitimate, you’re cleared of all charges and the one who issued them is the one who gets in trouble.
Doesn’t that seem reasonable? It sure makes sense to me.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Kimberly… It’s not that I don’t TRUST them on those issues. It’s that I don’t agree with them on those issues. I do agree with them more on the issues of dealing with terrorism.
I’m going to tell all of the Democrats THREE things to embrace and they can bring down the Republican party:
Show some backbone. Act like you are not going to hand over our sovereignty to he UN, France or any other foreign entity. That is the perception and it needs to be changed.
Get off of the progressive tax structure. Talk about a national sales tax, flat tax or at the very least a tax structure that does not hammer the wealthy.
Shift Social Security from the current generation paying for the retired to the current generation saving for their own retirement. If I didn’t have to pay for my grandma, I could save for my own and be more self-sufficient. It would also allow me to build wealth for myself and future generations.
To be honest… I believe the rest is all window dressing. If some Democrat embraced that, then they would win. Case closed.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
Naimah,
I have no idea where all your rambling went…
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this
Ken: Why would #2 be important? Most people aren’t wealthy, after all… so why not screw the rich with the most progressive tax structure imaginable?
A simple self-interest vote would take care of it: “If you earn less than $200,000 a year, our tax plan will help you and nail the tax-dodging bastards who’ve been shoving all the burden on you for decades.” That’s like 97% of the country right there.
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
So “Bring ‘em on” is detrimental? What would you prefer? “Tuck tail and run”? One general out of many disagreed with the president. Those are pretty good odds. When Iraq is stable with an army and police, our military will be gone. The president doesn’t know when that will be. He does not have a crystal ball like liberals who are pompous enough to spread their military knowledge like the dew. Bring on Jimmy’s submarine! Oley!
By Mr. Roberts
August 30, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
Does anti-American Rhetoric demoralize the country? Well consider this if you will. Sandy keep this in mind when you read the lies Micheal Moore spews! Two communist leaders recently made a joint appearance on Cuban television and declared that “America� is threat number one. According to President Chavez, “The grand destroyer of the world, and the greatest threat … is represented by U.S. imperialism.� Think about this for a moment. The greatest threat is not al Qaeda. The greatest threat is not Red China or the Soviet resurgence under Vladimr Putin. One may dismiss the threat posed by a nuclear-equipped Iran or a communist revolution sweeping Latin America. President Chavez, who championed the cause of Saddam Hussein and gave millions to finance the Taliban’s war effort, said on Aug. 8 that America is the “most savage, cruel and murderous empire that has existed in the history of the world.� Here we find the narrative of the Marxist-Leninist: “Socialism is the only path … [to] save a world threatened by the voracity of U.S. imperialism.� Chavez offered these words (earlier this month) at the 16th World Festival of Students and Youth, a communist extravaganza first hosted in Czechoslovakia during the Cold War. According to the communist way of thinking, the terrorists of 9/11 and the narco-terrorists in Colombia (i.e., the Revolutionary Armed Forced of Colombia) are allies in the struggle against U.S. imperialism. The real terrorist nation is America. The crimes of Stalin were committed to stop the Americans. The atrocities of Mao and Pol Pot were necessary in order to combat the stooges of American imperialism in China and Cambodia. The communist purges in North Korea, Vietnam and the African red states were necessary measures to ensure the victory of socialism. Since America is the greatest evil “that has existed in the history of the world,� then ruthless measures are always justified. Predictably, some will complain that America is “the real� totalitarian country. But nobody is fleeing Miami for Havana. You can always tell a totalitarian state by the fact that people vote with their feet – by leaving the country (at personal risk). In decrying the imperialism of the United States, the totalitarians tell one lie after another. They are the great distorters of history. And they have insinuated their dangerous propaganda into the political discourse of Europe and America. Consequently the masses, unwary in their acceptance of disguised communist ideas, have swallowed the Great Fable of American imperialism. Ask someone if they think America is the main threat today and I’ll show you someone who picked up the wrong magazine or newspaper – not realizing its slant or pedigree. Communist propaganda has a strategic objective. Blacken America’s name, place a question mark over America’s motives and rally the malcontents. There is only one reason the communists have failed to take over the world. That reason is the United States (i.e., American imperialism). Without American nuclear weapons to counter Soviet nuclear weapons the rest of the world would have been forced into a totalitarian straitjacket.
By Archie
August 30, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Like Brian and many men reading this blog I have not served in the military and the subject of orders and Colin Powell came up,my dad and brother both say that orders must be lawful and that you can’t just do anything. Both my dad and brother were in the military. In fact my brother is now overseas because of the Iraq war. I don’t have hatred towards the President,just a belief that he and members of his administration are dishonest with respect to this war. Maybe Mr Bush believes that he is doing what’s best for America in the long run but the lies makes me wonder what is the purpose.
“A simple self-interest vote would take care of it: “If you earn less than $200,000 a year, our tax plan will help you and nail the tax-dodging bastards who’ve been shoving all the burden on you for decades.â€? That’s like 97% of the country right there.” That is a good point Brian Curtis.
By StevieB
August 30, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
I think mr. roberts forgot to take his medicine! Wow, when are the black helicopters arriving. Sounds like the movie Red Dawn.
By Naimah Muhammad
August 30, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
I love you too taboga….
By Brian Curtis
August 30, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this
Archie: Well, I don’t know that it’s a good point, but it’s one worth considering.
Ken: For what it’s worth, I (and most liberals) agree with you on #1—that’s why we’re disgusted with having our sovereignty subordinated to the whims of the WTO, for example. And #3 is certainly worth discussing.
But those are probably topics for another week.
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
I’ve kinda stayed out of this one, ya’ll all are talking too fast for me to keep up while trying to work. However, this is coming from someone that LOVES to debate and gets a high out of being able to voice my opinion and listening (key word in debating) to other peoples point of views. You can’t argue something you don’t listen to. But even those that I agree with sound sort of pathetic. throwing insults at each other and stuffing “proof” down each others throats.
We all can sort of agree that debating on the internet is like trying to knock a beer can off the fence post with a beebee gun 200 yds away. Its hard to see the goal for all the riffraff in the middle.
There is a 1 in 1000 chance you’ll hit the target and may get something to penetrate the metal but you won’t knock the can off the post.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
G&J… I would be all for rationing of various items and taxing the populous if necessary. I never said I wasn’t.
Also…
All Americans have made sacrifices. We have lost loved ones. We have spent valuable resources (time, money, energy) in this conflict that could have been used else where, or simply given back to the people. We have seen the divide in our country grow deeper.
Those are all serious sacrifices.
By Idiot finder
August 30, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges,
huh? Idiot FinderBy Dusty
August 30, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this
You mean those tax-dodging, ultra liberal Hollywood stars, directors, ball players, traveling bishops and Martha Stewarts have been shoving the burden on poor starving liberals all these years? That’s a shame. Those dastardly ultra-liberals! You just can’t believe a thing they say.
By Dee
August 30, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
To protest or not to protest. If you don’t protest a wrong does that make that wrong go away? If you don’t acknowledge an untruth does that turn it into a truth? While studying about the Civil Rights Movement, I once asked my mother what she did during that time frame —- if she marched or protested or boycotted…what did she do to improve not just her life but the lives of others who would follow after her. She told me she didn’t do anything. I never looked at her the same after she said that - and everytime she walked into Bergdorf’s and complained about the service she was getting, I used to hang my head in shame because she didn’t do any of the sowing but she reaped all the benefits. If you feel something is wrong it is your obligation to say something about it. Where would we be if not for the whistle blowers of the world? We’d be buying worthless Enron stock.
“As we must account for every idle word, so must we account for every idle silence.” — Benjamin Franklin
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Dee - Some people are meant to blow the whistle while some aren’t. If every single person was out there blowing whistles about things, nothing would be accomplished in any areas. I’m sad that you are ashamed of your mother because she didn’t actively do anything, it was a different time then. Are you actively doing something about this now other than debating about it on here?
By taboga
August 30, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
You folks can tax me all you want. All I will do is turn around and up the cost of the goods and services that the average consumer buys.
So who will be the ones paying the taxes?
By George and Jesus
August 30, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
Ken, This is deficit spending. This money wasn’t allotted for other use. They aren’t taxing us anymore to pay for it - so how can it be given back? We just sell off more of our bonds to foreign countries to borrow money for it - but your paycheck hasn’t changed because of it. I’m a fiscal conservative - and can’t understand people that want a government to perform all sorts of functions but not to tax for it, like a personal credit card. Either you have to eliminate government or you have to pay for it.
And I wasn’t suggesting you wouldn’t support a tax, I wanted to know your thoughts about - since you stated that you didn’t agree with a lot of the spending that is occurring. Energy - I don’t know, how much news is dedicated to the war? Natale Holloway was covered 24/7 and bumped the war to the back page. In fact, this one missing girl generated more publicity and news than the war has over recent months. Divide between the country - the two sides will fight each other over everything; terri schiavo, abortion, evolution, ten commandments etc,etc. This is just one of many issues.
You seem to be applying this John Donne “No man is island -for whom the bell tolls” if one man dies we all are affected philosphy. But do you feel a pain in your gut when a soldier dies? Do you have to call in sick when an ied goes off? Are you worried a loved one won’t ever come home? Sure, one a young American dies we lose a resource - but does it affect us personally? In theory it sounds nice and the loss should be honored and respected, but you’ve personally lost nothing. You’ll still go to the movie or watch the Braves, etc, etc.
By Tony
August 30, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
I don’t know, but do you detect an air of triumph at y’alls apparent success of your endless carping? Y’all seem determined to persist and even ratchet up your rhetoric until the order to withdraw and resign in shame is given. You rise in indignation at any criticism and especially at the suggestion that your are not exhibiting characteristics, shall we say, of the model patriot. How dare anyone imply that you are anything but super-patriots?
Super-patriots, after all, are those who prove their love for America by wrapping themselves in the 1st Amendment as they tear down this nation, its troops and their commander in chief in a middle of a war.
How dare anyone accuse y’all of undermining the troops? Oh, sorry, I must have misunderstood when I read the hate-gorged posts likening Gitmo to Soviet Gulags.
I must be misperceiving y’alls efforts to establish a moral equivalence between our side and the terrorists when you’ve posted on several occasions the unauthorized harassment of terrorist detainees and the terrorists’ suicide bombings and beheadings of innocent civilians.
I must be misconstruing y’alls mantra that Cindy Sheehan has “absolute moral authority,” for example, to call the murderous freedom-saboteurs in Iraq “freedom fighters.”
I must have misread when you’ve compared Iraq with Vietnam, when the only reasonable comparison is that in both wars the work of the relentless anti-war protestors has been our enemies best (probably only) chance of defeating us.
I must be misinterpreting your seeming joy at every morsel of bad news that makes its way out of Iraq. I must be imagining that the mainstream media virtually conspire to ignore and suppress good news and sensationalize the bad.
I must be reading the wrong way when I read your posts spouting slanderous inanities such that the action in Iraq is Presidents Bush’s war for oil.
I must be mistaken in assuming your anxious to label America’s actions in Iraq as imperialistic when everyone knows that our purpose, having deposed of Saddam and liberated Iraq, is to help launch her new government and establish stability and security before we withdraw.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
Doesn’t make sense in combat.
By Dee
August 30, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
Response To: By Sandy/Sanhan
August 30, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Ken, don’t you think the administration ought to have concentrated on finding Bin Laden and taking down Al Quaeda first, before even considering Saddam? I mean, their attack on us was the “real� reason for going to war. Looking further down the road, had we carried out that mission, maybe the Spain and England attacks could have been prevented. Had we not been seen as an occupier in Iraq, Al Quaeda recruitment would not be better than the US military’s.
Response: Your observation got me thinking……what will we do if the all volunteer army does not wish to volunteer anymore? I know, from being in the military previously, that each servicemember has a 12 year obligation to the military, (that’s why some servicemen have been involuntarily extended—they’re still under contract), how will the U.S. handle that type of situation. And, will this war/conflict make it even harder to recruit able bodied younger generations into the service? And if that happens, will the U.S. actually be outmanned by Al Quaeda and other subversive groups? Your post made me think……
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
Oh noooo. Now Dee is “protesting” her mother. In Bergdorfs at that. Wonder if she had a hand printed sign. This is getting boring. I’m off to shoot cans with buildingbridges. Goodnight sweet prince (as in Hamlet) and all the rest of you.
By Ken
August 30, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this
G&J…
I too am a fiscal conservative. I go to the point that I don’t WANT the government doing much of anything except defending our country and keeping the basic infrastructure intact. I want the government to be pre-1932.
I would absolutely support taxation for this war. I would rather see pork-barrel spending stopped. I would rather see useless welfare programs eliminated. I would rather not transport the shuttle cross country at the cost of millions. I say trim extra spending before raising taxes.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
Dee. Simple. Impose the draft making it a non-volunteer army. Worked in the 60’s.
By kimberly
August 30, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Dee demonstrates an understanding of this topic, unlike Dusty who just likes to shoot things. Thanks for your points, Dee. I am often called upon to explain my “errant” behavior: speaking out, writing letters, contacting my elected officials, standing in a public protest, etc. The answer is simple: because SOMEBODY HAS TO STAND UP! For truth, for what is right, for accountablity, for justice, for the REAL American way, not just the financially-comfortable-conservative-white-male American way.
Go shoot yer big gun, Dusty. Try not to shoot off something you’ll need later.
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Haha! Alright Dusty lets go!
By Dee
August 30, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Dee - Some people are meant to blow the whistle while some aren’t. If every single person was out there blowing whistles about things, nothing would be accomplished in any areas. I’m sad that you are ashamed of your mother because she didn’t actively do anything, it was a different time then. Are you actively doing something about this now other than debating about it on here?
Reply: Of course!!! I served in the military and lost my first husband to Desert Storm, (‘91); while we were both overseas. I support my servicemen and women by organizing letter writings campaigns and emails to soldiers who don’t have family and/or friends to write to them. My daughter’s girl scout troop have car washes to raise money for care packages for soldiers; my church has a “military spouse” outreach ministry for the spouses of servicemembers. And the best thing of all that I can do is that I protest loudly and quietly the war in Iraq.
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Alright…for the “southern illiterate” My reference to the shooting was simply this:
When points, all points, are surrounded by insults and long “proofs” and whining, you don’t ever GET to the point, it’s lost. There’s a chance that someone will understand your point and it’ll sink in a little but the chances of changing their views or opinions are slim to none.
all your misdirected comments about it actually proved MY point. :) My work here is done. Have a nice night!
By Jen
August 30, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this
Taboga, as I’m tired, and my lawn furniture is currently blowing across my lawn, I will only address your condescending tone once, and then I will leave.
Just because I am young does not mean I do not understand what war is. My grandfather served in WWII and the Korean conflict, and an uncle was killed in Vietnam. I have heard the stories, I have read the letters home, and I have known what war is really like for quite some time. I have not personally experienced war for myself, but I’m not stupid enough to think that it’s all fun and games.
Contrary to what you think, most liberals don’t want an immediate pullout, because it simply isn’t feasible at this point. We would, however, like an exit strategy that actually required more than a moment’s thought. “Staying the course” is vague and barely a strategy, and that’s just not good enough.
Dusty, thank you for taking my playful jab at Taboga seriously. It shows that some appreciate humour, and others don’t; you appear to fall in with the latter. You should’ve read my other posts, which demonstrates that I rather like to think for myself.. I like the truth, I like to figure out how it applies to me, and I don’t have to resort to party-based ad hominem when others don’t see “my truth.”
Finally, Sandy, I appreciate your kind words in my defense.
By Dee
August 30, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
By Dusty
August 30, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
Oh noooo. Now Dee is “protesting� her mother. In Bergdorfs at that. Wonder if she had a hand printed sign. This is getting boring. I’m off to shoot cans with buildingbridges. Goodnight sweet prince (as in Hamlet) and all the rest of you.
Dusty — small minds and big guns, you must be from Texas!
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
One last thing. The way that EVERYONE here feels…think about that feeling… that passion you have for the topic, the urge you feel to make your points and have them heard by those that don’t agree….
The opposing person…feels the same way.
Everybody can stand up for what they believe but are they all going to do it in the same manner? No. Are they going to get negative feedback from people? Yes. Are they going to possibly be persecuted for their thoughts and beliefs? Possibly so. Just because I personally don’t go around picketing cigarette companies and putting flyers on everyone’s car with the facts about cigarettes not being biodegradable and to please use proper disposal, doesn’t mean that I don’t have my own way of getting my thoughts about that wrong act (in my opinion) out to people.
By taboga
August 30, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Dee demonstrates an understanding of this topic, unlike Dusty who just likes to shoot things. Thanks for your points, Dee. I am often called upon to explain my “errant� behavior: speaking out, writing letters, contacting my elected officials, standing in a public protest, etc. The answer is simple: because SOMEBODY HAS TO STAND UP! For truth, for what is right, for accountablity, for justice, for the REAL American way, not just the financially-comfortable-conservative-white-male American way.
Was the Battle Hymn of the Republic playing in the background?
Kimberly to the rescue - you go girl!
By buildingbridges
August 30, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
Dee- That’s good! That’s great that your daughters troup and you and your church and you are so highly involved with things. I’m sorry you lost your husband in dessert storm. Again, things today are different then they were then with your mother. And you are doing things in a totally different way than others might. Your doing what I would consider possitive. Supporting the troups (even if not supporting the war). What you described, I wouldn’t consider “whistle blowing”. What sheehan is doing is what I pictured when you said that. The in your face protesting, the I’m not going anywhere 30 day sit in protests. Not that those can’t have a possitive outcome, but 9 times out of 10 they have ended in chaos and injuries and sometimes deaths. Not everyone is meant to show their opinions in that matter. That’s where I misunderstood what you said. :)
By Ruth
August 30, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this
Last night I spend about an hour reading comments, I had read other Woman to Woman articles in the past but for some reason had never read the comments. I was physically sick afterwards. I wasn’t able to get to sleep until 3:30 I was so heartsick. You see, I have a soldier serving in Iraq. If he and the other troops there read these comments they would be horrified and not for the reasons you are thinking. The viciousness of the right against the left is unbelievable. I suppose I would be perceived to be on the left since based on things my soldier tells me I know that this war is pointless. I have never watched a Michael Moore movie or visited the Move On website or some of the other sites that those on the left are constantly accused of being addicted to. I don’t need them to tell me how to think, I can think for myself. If I based my opinion on this article’s comments and nothing else it would certainly be apparent that anti war protest is being discouraged. Instead of intelligent comments pro and con, this has turned into a grudge match of insults. Most of you are a different kind of people than I have ever encountered. The all volunteer army has produced a situation in which very little sacrifice is required of the general public. Only a small percentage of citizens are directly impacted by the war and of that small percentage once again only a certain percentage of those troops are actually doing the patrols by foot or in humvees. Many have jobs that don’t require them to ever set foot outside their base. Things are more dangerous there now than they were when the war began. You can agree with or oppose the war, but there should be no question that the tactics being used are sadly and dangerously lacking, if you ask the soldiers on patrol and they could speak truthfully that’s what you would be told. I don’t think I will ever visit this site again. I’m disappointed in my fellow man. As for Cindy Sheehan, you can oppose her views, speak out against what she is saying but why are you calling her such terrible names, I am shocked.
By Dee
August 30, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
Thanks Kimberly, and you’re right if no one ever stood up and said anything about the injustices that are/were happening here in America for instance, then we would have never been called America, we’d be called New England, or George’s Place. Protest is the American way; that’s how our country started — from rebellion and protest and a need to right a wrong. People like you will always see the truth and will not be afraid to say “The Emperor Is Not Wearing Clothes”.
By Jack
August 30, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this
Dusty. It sounded like you and buildingbridges were going to buy a case of beer and “shotgun” a few beers. Haven’t done that in a while.
By George and Jesus
August 30, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this
Tobaga,
“You folks can tax me all you want. All I will do is turn around and up the cost of the goods and services that the average consumer buys.
So who will be the ones paying the taxes”
You’ve finally admitted to being the thing you hate so much - a communist (liberal). When you pass on your responsibility to pay your taxes to others - you are asking them TO PAY FOR YOU. Congratulations COMRADE - you are a welfare recipient - supported by other hardworking Americans taxpayers.
By Ken
August 31, 2005 07:30 AM | Link to this
G&J… Actually if Toboga does that then he is being a good Capiitalist. He can only raise the prices as high as the public market would allow. Then he would be losing money.
Ruth… I think you’re correct that the soldiers would be disgusted. I don’t have a family member in Iraq right now, but I did in Afghanistan. I have spoken with his wife and she is not happy with the way folks here at home act about the war and the way it is covered by the media.
I think the buildingbridges post from 4:53 yesterday sums up very nicely a big portion of this discussion. It is our right and our duty to question the government’s actions. Call it protest if you want, but we should do it. However, there are many different manners to do so.
Why hasn’t Cindy Sheehan written a letter everyday to her congressperson? Why hasn’t she tried to contact her Senator? Why did she have to go and camp out in front of the President’s priivate home and bring media cameras with her? Simply. She wanted attention.
Anyone who has ever worked in a large organization knows that working behind the scenes always gets the job done better and faster than a big public production.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 07:39 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
Public Service Reminder: In order to vote for the next Democrat loser for the Presidency, you Dems have only got just a little over 3 years to come up with a Voter ID.
If you think you might run into problems with this monumental task, stop the next Latino you see on the street who can’t speak english - and he’ll show you how.
But all kidding aside. Helping Democrats get a Voter ID - would be a great way for the Boy Scouts to show their support for the community. If that subversive Neo-Nazi group hasn’t been outlawed yet to make room for Gay Marriage…
By taboga
August 31, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this
G&J… Actually if Toboga does that then he is being a good Capiitalist. He can only raise the prices as high as the public market would allow. Then he would be losing money.
Nah. I’d just lay folks off if it got to that point. Then they could go work for a Liberal building hybrid cars. The are doing that, right?
By Ben
August 31, 2005 07:44 AM | Link to this
Dee - Just curious as to who’s military did you serve in? I know there are four-year enlistments, and sometimes six years depending on your job, but 12-year obligation? Your recruiter screwed you.
And Tony you are killing me. Where are you getting these posts?
By George and Jesus
August 31, 2005 08:01 AM | Link to this
Ken, I expect to see you and tobaga down in Mississippi today “supporting” your fellow Americans in this tragic time by selling bottled water to the newly homeless at fifteen dollars a pop.
That’s what a good capitalist would do.
Good luck on your venture.
By Lyrazel
August 31, 2005 08:24 AM | Link to this
Hello To all you great bloggers who want to practice their American pride I am going to ask a big favor that may help many lives and aid many working to protect thousands of Americans. Please give generously to your American Red Cross. A monitary gift of Thursday and Fridays lunch money will not be unwelcome. Please also try to give blood and open your hearts, minds as well as your pocket books. We need help now! America has always been a generous nation full of highly individual and unique people of all ethnic and spiritual backgrounds. Open your hearts to the victims of Katrinas disaster with some relief assistance for the many men and women who are in the devastation providing blankets, medical assistance and food. Your gift is so appreciated…even 10.00 or canned goods…
By Roger Soiset
August 31, 2005 08:25 AM | Link to this
Are anti-war protests discouraged or encouraged? People can and will do what they want, and they will be influenced by their politics as well as their morals. But think about this—the protests against the war in Vietnam did result in the collapse of a democratic country after Congress pulled the plug on their monetary lifeline; and fear of protests no doubt played a part in our hasty withdrawal from Somalia, resulting in a lawless country where terrorists thrive. Hopefully would-be protestors will keep these precedents in mind.
By rocky
August 31, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
Sheehead is anti-American because she doesn’t feel this country is worth fighting for, which were her very own words. It is that one statement, plain and simple, that makes her anti-American. Whatever her misguided views and uneducated political stances are don’t matter. That one statement told me exactly what I needed to know about her. She hates America and doesn’t think we have a country worth fighting for. So I think she should just leave and go to some appeasement country ruled under a socialist system, where she’ll be among her own. She’s a traitor for giving comfort to the enemy, and she’s the worst kind of mother there is for denegrading the memory of her own son for political gain. Yes, she’s anti-American because she hates everything America stands for. It’s really that simple. Even you libs should be able to understand that one.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this
Ken, I expect to see you and tobaga down in Mississippi today “supporting� your fellow Americans in this tragic time by selling bottled water to the newly homeless at fifteen dollars a pop.
That’s what a good capitalist would do.
Nah, I thought I would just sit around and complain about what everyone else is or isn’t doing.
That’s what a good Liberal would do.
By Dee
August 31, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Building Bridges Dee- That’s good! That’s great that your daughters troup and you and your church and you are so highly involved with things. I’m sorry you lost your husband in dessert storm. Again, things today are different then they were then with your mother.
Building Bridges — Thanks but being an ex-soldier, having “fought” (since technically females don’t actually fight), in a major conflict I know some of the things that the soldiers are facing every day. I will always support the troops even if I don’t support the war. The troops are people, the war is a cause.
Also, my point about my mother is that a lot of people want to talk the talk but don’t want to walk the walk. It’s easy to be on the sidelines and tell someone else how things should be or to benefit from someone else’s pain; but it’s harder to put yourself, (or your loved ones), on the front line. If you forgive this statement, I’ve got small kids, but it’s sort of like the little red hen. No one on the farm wanted to help the hen plant, cultivate, or process the wheat, but everyone wanted to eat the products that the wheat made.
By Carrie
August 31, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
That’s o funny that people like to throw liberal and republican around. Yeah, keep fighting.
While you bicker, corporations and the top 1% of the population are tax cuts, the gas prices keep soaring, it’s hard to find a job because of downsizing and offshoring (if one more person from Dell calls me with an unintelligent accent, I will scream), healthcare is a wreck, the transit system in Atlanta needs serious work, our kids can’t read, count, or spell to save their lives.
All that doesn’t matter because the wealthy can send their kids to private schools, the best universities, spend 100, 000 dollars on Sweet Sixteen parties to be broadcast on MTV, while some kids can’t even afford lunch or meals.
And all of the above is why the other people hate Americans. We spend lavishly and don’t give a damn about the other people.
A friend from the Middle East was appalled when she realized how you can’t leave the doors unlocked without wondering when you return will everything be gone from your house.
America needs to rethink some things.
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 31, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
The Associated Press reports: On Tuesday President Bush answered growing anti-war protests with a fresh reason for US troops to continue fighting in Iraq: protection of the country’s oil fields that would otherwise fall under the control of terrorist extremists. Bush, standing against a backdrop of the imposing USS Ronald Reagan, the newest aircraft carrier in the Navy’s fleet, said that terrorists would be denied their goal. “We will build a free Iraq that will fight terrorists instead of giving them aid and sanctuary.” …. Bush said that the Iraqi oil industry, already suffering from sabotage and lost revenue, must not fall to Osama Bin Laden and al-Quaeda forces in Iraq led by Abu Musab al-Zarquawi.
My own thoughts are, again, had we carried out the mission to get Bin Laden and shut down al-Quaeda, before destabilizing Iraq, the oil fields would not be threatened by Bin Laden and al-Quaeda.
There is some speculation that Bush’s reason for invading Iraq when he did was because the sanctions were about to end and that there was fear that Saddam would cease trading in dollars and switch to Euros, which would impact the oil industry and the American Economy. Does anyone have any insight to this issue of currency? Netbanker? Anyone?
By Jack
August 31, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
They claim it’s Bush’s fault for the hurricane. He and his minions have ruined the environment and caused global warming and thus the hurricane. Then they’ll say that it was all a plot for the oil companies to get rich because of the refineries being down.
By Bruce
August 31, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
Carrie has found the answer. All our problems stem from the fact the we are bickering on this blog. Thanks Carrie we needed that.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
How do you “shutdown” Al Qaeda?
By Crown
August 31, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
Has anyone heard what the Bush Administration plans to do about the “national threat� Katrina?
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this
Dee- your absolutetly right. It is much easier to sit on the sidelines and fuss about what you could do better (not you personally..you as in..people). That’s why it’s also important to vote, if you don’t vote, don’t fuss. That action (as “small” as it seems) is very important and I think some people have the mentality that it won’t matter anyway, why waste their time, but it does matter and it can make a difference. However, you have the cheerleaders and you have the football players. They each have a role to play and you need both. I agree 100% if there is a cause you feel so strongly about, do something, even if it is just informing people about it.
By lilith
August 31, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this
I really loved Ruth’s post. She is so right. I don’t know any real people who think like these simple minded fundie right-wing people on this blog either. I live and work with thinking, educated people and I am grateful for that every day. Unfortunately, I do have a few in my family with 7th grade Georgia educations who would agree with all of you brainiacs though!
By Sandy/Sanhan
August 31, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this
Taboga, I’ve told you before, I’m not going to waste my or anyone else’s time re-inventing the wheel for you so you can spin your obfuscations. But here’s a clue to your question: First, you pay attention to years of reports and intelligence, especially important memos you receive suggesting an iminent attack, even if you’re on vacation.
By Quotor
August 31, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this
Sinclair Lewis said this 70 years ago: “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.”
—-from “It Can’t Happen Here”, 1935
By Bruce
August 31, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
It boggles my mind why someone with such a higher intelligence would even read these post of such simple-minded 7th graders. Shouldn’t you be spending your thoughts on a cure for cancer or aids instead of giving us your over-infalted opinion of how intelligent your are?
By taboga
August 31, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this
Lilith,
Thanks for letting us all know how smart you are.
Do you have anything to post that might let us judge for ourselves?
By Dee
August 31, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this
By Ben
Dee - Just curious as to who’s military did you serve in? I know there are four-year enlistments, and sometimes six years depending on your job, but 12-year obligation? Your recruiter screwed you.
Ben: When you enlist in the military you have a 12 year obligation. Even if you only serve two years active duty you still have another 10 years of obligation. Most people are put into the IRR, (Individual Readiness Reserve), and are only called up in the event of an extreme emergency — others choose to serve their time in the Regular Reserves or the National Guard. People who are considered critical to the safety of the union, (have skills that are necessary), and have been in the military as a Commissioned Officer, (Doctors, Surgeons, Nurses), and has had the military pay for their schooling can be held longer. It’s all in the fine print.
By Ken
August 31, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this
G&J… You’re right… A true capitalist would do exactly what you suggested.
I never said I was a true capitalist. You said that based on the fact that refuted your post that describe Toboga as a communist.
Carrie… You are absolutely right in your post describing all of the problems we have in this country, but I would ask you this question. What has caused those problems…?
Our children can’t read and write b/c it is not a priority in our society or with parents today. Playing sports, playing video games and becomin famous have become far more important. My parents were poor and I went to public school and I was able to get an excellent HS and College education b/c my parents made the necessary sacrifices.
Our transit system in Atlanta is subpar b/c county governments 20 years ago wouldn’t buy into a true Metro transit idea.
Our gas prices are soaring b/c people in this country guzzle gas like there is no tomorrow. Basic cupply and demand. When a legal cartel gets to set the price of oil and we don’t have new refineries to process more gas and the demand increases, then prices soar.
Work is being off-shored b/c the cost of labor is cheaper here than here. If you ran a flower shop wouldn’t you buy flowers from the least expensive grower? The American worker has simply priced him/herself out of the market due to inflation.
As for rich people spending lavish amount sof money on their kids… That will ALWAYS happen. Until you live in a Marxist society that forces equal distribution there will always be rich, poor and everything in between. I’m not rich, but I don’t begrudge them. They have money so let them spend it. I don’t need money to be happy.
Or you could say it’s all the Presdent’s fault and it’s his job to fix it. Please. No President caused these problems and no Presdient is going to fix them. It’s not their job to fix them.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this
Sandy,
I still want to know how we’re supposed to just “shutdown” Al Qaeda.
Apparently, this is a very simple thing to do. Kinda like the “Beefing-up of our borders” that you Libs are always talking about.
I guess what I am trying to say, is how long does it take to “shutdown” Al Qaeda? Are you willing to be a good sport and give President Bush the 8 years that the Clinton Administration had to not “shutdown” Al Qaeda? And do you have a “timetable” and an “exit strategy” for the shutdown…?
By Dusty
August 31, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
Crown, where were you when the lights went out? The governor of Louisiana said in her first telecast that President Bush had declared Louisiana and Mississippi “Disaster Areas” shortly after the storm hit. That is the “go” alert for all federal help agencies. Then the president left immediately for Washington to make relief plans.
Were you, by any chance, going to say that the president had done nothing? That Kerry would have been at the scene in his swiftboat to rescue people? I hope not. The perilous unfounded propaganda put out by some people is detrimental to our country. Something honest would be helpful.
By Ben
August 31, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
Dee - Oh, you are talking about the IRR. I guess I was confused because, unless things changed, the obligation was only eight years total. I hope so because I got away with 11 years and I’m not on the IRR list.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
Speaking of the floods…
Ted Kennedy said: “The hell with those folks underwater - let’s go have some pancakes!
By Dee
August 31, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this
Ben:
It depends on when you originally came in, (enlisted), as to what your obligation is. Things change.
By Dusty
August 31, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this
Errr, Taboga, are you sure that is correct? I think he would have said….”cheesecake”.
By Crown
August 31, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this
Hi Dusty,
Thanks for the insult. If you read it properly, you would see that I ASKED a question. Since I didn’t hear anything in the news, I though I would ask you all here. I sense that you are on edge about anything negative said about the president. That’s fine and thanks for answering the question.
By Quotor
August 31, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
developing, from the Drudge Report:
President Bush is considering an address to the nation asking citizens to conserve energy, a top White House source says.
Bush ordered the release of oil from federal petroleum reserves to help refiners affected by Hurricane Katrina.
Bush returned to Washington on Wednesday to oversee the federal response to the historic disaster. He plans to coordinate federal efforts, across more than a dozen agencies, to assist hurricane victims.
“Still undecided is whether or not to call for a nationwide effort to reduce energy consumption during this emergency,” a top Bush source explains. “It is seriously being considered.”
A second White House source says there are no plans for the president to address the country on gas.
But we have heard on this blog itself: Petrol is UNlimited. so what is the problem?
By Crown
August 31, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this
And even if I don’t like Bush that does not automatically make me a Kerry fan. How is it to only see everything in black and white?
By taboga
August 31, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
Quotor,
Well, you know, if the President were to address the nation and advise everyone to not waste gas, does that mean that the millions of americans who like to leave their cars running overnight - would stop doing that?
I for one, hope that he doesn’t ask us to conserve gas, because I was planning on running up and down 400 all day on Saturday and Sunday just to burn a few tanks full!
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
Going back a little to someones comment about the polls being irrelevant. I was just reading some stories on msn.com and one of the poll results had this disclaimer:
“A total of 1,006 randomly selected adults were interviewed by telephone Aug. 25-28. The margin of sampling error for the results is plus or minus three percentage points.”
HOW on earth can an accurate poll be conducted with 1,006 people? In the 2004 census, the population was 293,655,404. That poll only included 0.0003% of the nation. Not to mention that 3% error could take the poll in either direction.
Just makes me put the polls outcomes in perspective a little bit.
By Ben
August 31, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
The real issue is not whether or not he asks us to conserve gas, but how he plans to protect consumers from the pending rise in gas prices. Some say prices will far exceed $3 to offset the lack of production. Maybe Chavez’s offer wasn’t so bad.
By Crown
August 31, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
So to answer the question, I would say that yes, anti-war protests are discouraged. The basic concept of protesting is dissent on what is the norm. I wouldn’t say that protesting is always a bad thing. Otherwise, I would not be able to eat lunch with my fellow co-workers.
I can understand what some people are saying about how it makes our country looks like we are divided and other countries feed off of our demise. It’s true; we do not look good when you see everyone arguing about whether or not this is a just war. The beauty is that we are able to agree to disagree on this issue. How are we able to provide “freedom� to other countries in need while attempting to take ours away? It is hard to fish out what is really propaganda and what is fact. There aren’t too many people out there that are 100% sure that the president is right or wrong on this issue. It is only based on opinions. Hopefully time will tell that this was the right decision made although I have my doubts.
By Tony
August 31, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this
Nationally, the average per gallon price for regular gasoline is $2.50.
Are gasoline prices high? That’s not the best way to ask that question. It’s akin to asking, “Is Williams tall?” The average height of U.S. women is 5’4”, and for men, it’s 5’10”. Being 6’4”, I’d be tall relative to the general U.S. population. But put me on a basketball court, next to the average NBA basketball player, and I wouldn’t be tall; I’d be short. So when we ask whether a price is high or low, we have to ask relative to what.
In 1950, a gallon of regular gasoline sold for about 30 cents; today, it’s $2.50. Are today’s gasoline prices high compared to 1950? Before answering that question, we have to take into account inflation that has occurred since 1950. Using my trusty inflation calculator (www.westegg.com/inflation), what cost 30 cents in 1950 costs $2.33 in 2005. In real terms, that means gasoline prices today are only slightly higher, about 8 percent, than they were in 1950. Up until the recent spike, gasoline prices have been considerably lower than 1950 prices.
Some Americans are demanding that the government do something about gasoline prices. Let’s think back to 1979 when the government did do something. The Carter administration instituted price controls. What did we see? We saw long gasoline lines, and that’s if the gas station hadn’t run out of gas. It’s estimated that Americans used about 150,000 barrels of oil per day idling their cars while waiting in line. In an effort to deal with long lines, the Carter administration introduced the harebrained scheme of odd and even days, whereby a motorist whose license tag started with an odd number could fill up on odd-numbered days, and those with an even number on even-numbered days.
With the recent spike in gas prices, the government has chosen not to pursue stupid policies of the past. As a result, we haven’t seen shortages. We haven’t seen long lines. We haven’t seen gasoline station fights and riots. Why? Because price has been allowed to perform its valuable function — that of equating demand with supply.
Our true supply problem is of our own doing. Large quantities of oil lie below the 20 million acre Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). The amount of land proposed for oil drilling is less than 2,000 acres, less than one-half of one percent of ANWR. The U.S. Geological Survey estimates there are about 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil in ANWR. But environmentalists’ hold on Congress has prevented us from drilling for it. They’ve also had success in restricting drilling in the Gulf of Mexico and off the shore of California. Another part of our energy problem has to do with refining capacity. Again, because of environmentalists’ successful efforts, it’s been 30 years since we’ve built a new oil refinery.
Few people realize that the U.S. is also a major oil-producing country. After Saudi Arabia, producing 10.4 million barrels a day, then Russia with 9.4 million barrels, the U.S. with 8.7 million barrels a day is the third-largest producer of oil. But we could produce more. Why aren’t we? Producers have a variety of techniques to win monopoly power and higher profits that come with that power. What’s a way for OPEC to gain more power? I have a hypothesis, for which I have no evidence, but it ought to be tested. If I were an OPEC big cheese, I’d easily conclude that I could restrict output and charge higher oil prices if somehow U.S. oil drilling were restricted. I’d see U.S. environmental groups as allies, and I would make “charitable” contributions to assist their efforts to reduce U.S. output. Again, I have no evidence, but it’s a hypothesis worth examination.
Walter E. Williams
By Crown
August 31, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
Where are you getting gas??? It is $2.70 around my way! I guess I need to stock up in another part of town.
By William
August 31, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
Tony, are you insane?
If you look at 30 cents a gallon in 1950, why not compare that to 1995 per se when gas was 79 cents a gallon? Wouldn’t inflation have taken effect then? In 10 years, inflation has caused that much of a jump?
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
your missing a key word…
“the average per gallon price for regular gasoline is $2.50”
AVERAGE… average per gallon. you know what average means right? sarcasm Just curious..with all of our 7th grade mentalities (as someone pointed out earlier) I wasn’t sure if that was learned or not by then.
By Ken
August 31, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
Ben… Maybe consumers should protect themselves from the pending rise in gas prices by not driving large vehicles that produce a meager 10 MPG, by not living 50 miles from where they work or, better yet, both. I wonder how many folks in Manhatten or Chicago or DC care about the cost of gas as much as we do in Atlanta. Probably not nearly the same perentage.
This is actually one scenario that I have been anxiously anticipating for a very long time. Maybe now we can get the oversized vehicles that cause much more harm than they are worth off the road. Maybe now our car industries will start to produce more efficient or alternative fuel cell vehicles for the road. Maybe now people will consider the benfit of public transportation.
The best way to affect change in the American populous is through their pocketbook.
By lilith
August 31, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
ToeBooger, the only thing keeping you from judging for your obnoxious self is your tiny little brain and lack of education!
By Crown
August 31, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
That was a joke. My mother always told me that I wasn’t as funny as I thought I was…better start listening to her. In all seriousness, does anyone remember when Georgians had lower than average gas prices?
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
I am quite surprised by your ignorance and crass depictions of people you do not know. Were you really brought up to call other humans such names to elevate your meaningless status? You state you are superior? How so wise guy?
Your prose shows a heavy lack of concern for any other human besides yourself. Do you think that is what we conservatives are calling for? You are not in a conservative camp; more like fascist. Do not EVER call yourself any type of “conservative,” for they still believe in removing prejudice attitude. You need to be more accurate and call yourself neo-nazi or such - hence your hate for community.
And where do you get off calling America YOUR country? Last time I looked, the constitution had no reference to your name; and more over, you have yet to say anything in accordance with it.
BTW - Your answer was incorrect - again! Want to try for a third effort? I doubt it; seeing as you ignore the conversations that reveal your painted corner (bc you do not have the wit I suppose).
(My whole office reads and mocks your posts now. It is our “happy were not you” time - makes us all happy that we have normal issues).
Good day and lets watch you try to explain yourself my idiot friend;)
By Ben
August 31, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Ken - So are you saying if there we no SUVs or large-trucks, gas prices wouldn’t be astronomical? They may not be the most fuel efficient, but they are far from the cause. And I am protecting myself as a consumer by living outside of the city, i.e., lower taxes, less crime and definitely lower mortgage. I’m sure gasoline prices are just beginning with winter around the corner.
People in Manhattan or Chicago or DC don’t care about the cost of gas as much as we do in Atlanta because they have an effective, efficient public transportation system.
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Ken - where in some instances you are correct about that statement but to defend those large car driving living far away people… you have no idea of their situation. I had my suv long before any of this happened. And the reason I got it was because I adopted a large dog that didn’t fit in my little 2 seater car. Now though, I can’t afford to buy a car with better gas mileage. And I get 16 miles/gal (not good but better than 10). The job that I got was my ‘dream’ job and it’s 20 miles away but I was already locked into another year lease at my apartment. Plus I don’t want to live on this side of atlanta (my perogative). I thought about moving closer to another area but even though the mileage commute was shorter, because of traffic and stupid drivers it would have taken a LOT longer to get here, hence, just as much or more gas being used.
Don’t judge a book. Most people can’t afford to just up and move when their job changes or just to end up upside down buying a new car for the gas mileage. Trust me, I would love to get a little honda that gets 30 mi/gal (exaggeration) but I can’t afford to.
What about the state employees for DOT that drive the big ole trucks?
Or people that their jobs require them to be on the road a lot and have larger cars. Not everyone has the luxury to live 2 miles from work and be able to drive a car for their job. Some actually have construction jobs that need a truck or a SUV for transporting things.
Just don’t judge a book.
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
Ken - where in some instances you are correct about that statement but to defend those large car driving living far away people… you have no idea of their situation. I had my suv long before any of this happened. And the reason I got it was because I adopted a large dog that didn’t fit in my little 2 seater car. Now though, I can’t afford to buy a car with better gas mileage. And I get 16 miles/gal (not good but better than 10). The job that I got was my ‘dream’ job and it’s 20 miles away but I was already locked into another year lease at my apartment. Plus I don’t want to live on this side of atlanta (my perogative). I thought about moving closer to another area but even though the mileage commute was shorter, because of traffic and stupid drivers it would have taken a LOT longer to get here, hence, just as much or more gas being used.
Don’t judge a book. Most people can’t afford to just up and move when their job changes or just to end up upside down buying a new car for the gas mileage. Trust me, I would love to get a little honda that gets 30 mi/gal (exaggeration) but I can’t afford to.
What about the state employees for DOT that drive the big ole trucks?
Or people that their jobs require them to be on the road a lot and have larger cars. Not everyone has the luxury to live 2 miles from work and be able to drive a car for their job. Some actually have construction jobs that need a truck or a SUV for transporting things.
Just don’t judge a book.
But before getting upset at me… I am not disagreeing about something. There are a LOT of people out there with huge SUVs that have no need for them. Who, other than military, NEEDS a full size hummer. I mean seriously. I do agree with all of that. And unless you have a family of 10…why do you need an excursion?
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
Crown - Ooohhhh.. hahaha. No I got it now, I’m just horrible at picking up jokes. I’m an engineer, we (for the most part) don’t have very active sense of humors. :) And me personally… I’m the one laughing 5 minutes later when I finally get a joke. Not that I’m stupid or slow but it’s just in my nature to always try to make sense of them before seeing the humor.
=P
By buildingbridges
August 31, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
Sorry for the double post. :) I added soemthign to the end there but didn’t know it would get posted twice. this is what I added.
But before getting upset at me… I am not disagreeing about something. There are a LOT of people out there with huge SUVs that have no need for them. Who, other than military, NEEDS a full size hummer. I mean seriously. I do agree with all of that. And unless you have a family of 10…why do you need an excursion?
However, it’s not entirely the large cars that caused the inflation. It would have happened anyway I believe.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
Words,
I have no idea what you’re ranting about, nor could I care less about what you little office goons are giggling about.
And whenever you and your gaggle of morons want to debate me - let me know. I’ll even give you dips a head start just to show what a great sport I am!
By DoThisOne
August 31, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
Taboga
Keep the comedy coming for it makes the day go by quicker. You are a comedian, correct?
By DoThisOne
August 31, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
The Chinese are to blame for the high prices of gasoline. If they had been content to continue riding bicycles and having a non(heavy)-industrial, agricultural economy, there would not be an increase in the demand for oil.
Blame the Chinese.
Don’t know why people always blames Hummers, etc.smirk
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
Tab,
No reply as I said would happen. You say you will/can debate, but have yet to do so - Ever.
SO WHERE IS THE PROSE OF DEBATE??
And really, why do you promote fascist ideals? Are you really that stupid that you would push for limited freedoms at the expense of those who cannot speak for themselves? [I will answer that last one for you. Yes.]
C’Mon sonny, show us what you know! - Or have you already; and that is why your out of steam?
Take care my dimwitted boy.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
Taboga
Keep the comedy coming for it makes the day go by quicker. You are a comedian, correct?
If you wanna play - you gotta get past the 5th grade attempt at wit. Come on now.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this
Words,
As much as I love making fun of little goobers like you - you either need to make some remote reference as to what you are referring to specifically - or move along.
What exactly would you and the little office spankers like answered…?
If we can start from there - we might be able to proceed. If not - you guys pool your change and go have another six-pack!
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Are you really telling me that you need to be told, not twice, but three times to get a response? After all of your “Please debate with me! Someone! Please, oh please; I am lonely and scared.”
Gosh you are an idiot. Just respond for the life of god!!SRCSM and DGHT is what you gave gotten yourself into; but I do not expect you to understand things above 7th grade, correct? {good luck googling it too, won’t work like your communism et al plagerism}
Heh, you are almost entertaining - brainfry much? Now for your point that you botched earlier?
By Ken
August 31, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Ben… I am saying that if SUVs and other large passenger vehicles were no longer around we would be better off when it comes to our gasoline situation. The demand would be lower therefore prices would be lower.
BTW… You are not protecting yourself from the gas situation by living outside the city unless living outside the city puts you closer to work.
buildingbridges… You are absolutely right… NOONE needs SUVs, Large Trucks, etc. unless you are using it for the military or specific work activities. And I do believe the increase of those vehicles have increased the price of gasoline.
The point I am trying to make is this… There are lots of things that the citizens of this country can do to become less dependent on gas and foreign oil. There are lots of things that the citizen of this country can do to protect themselves from the rising costs of gasoline. Those things can be done without ANY government intervention.
We live in a society where we want to blame the government for everything and look to them for all the solutions. Perhaps we should try do something for ourselves and not pass the buck on to the President. He or others in positions didn’t cause ANY of the issues I described.
By DoThisOne
August 31, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
MarkMyWords
now here is where you Stomp your feet and say “I will do and say whatever I please, I don’t give a hoot what you think” and make sure you give credit to our Fireman, after being told told to ‘run along’
Comedy, I say, Pure Comedy.
By taboga
August 31, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Don’t know why people always blames Hummers, etc.smirk
It’s because we’re civic-minded.
Somebody has got to tow your little whiskey-bump, save-the-whaler to the junkyard - and get the eyesore off the side of the road!
We’re promoting tourism here baby!
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
DoThis,
I do not understand your words, but I am laughing!
Tab?? YOOHOO Tab?? Billie? Millie? All sliced up and sealed tight in baggies, tab?
By Zack
August 31, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
Brian Curtis—One huge difference: If I’m right on abortion, which I am (no evidence refutes me, and I mean none), I’m protecting life. If you’re wrong on abortion, which you are (all evidence supports me on this), you’re promoting killing and more killing and no responsibility to be placed on anyone in an attempt to stop it.
As for the war, I don’t think we should be in Iraq, unless Bush truly had reason to believe that Saddam had WMD, which I doubt. However, as I mentioned, there are indeed times where war is necessary. (Brian, are you UPSET that we fought the Revolutionary War and established a free country as a result?) I’m tired of hearing Bush and others say that Islam is a peaceful religion. It’s anything but a peaceful religion. The extreme muslims are the ones who are peaceful; the fundamentalists are the ones who are violent, because the Quran calls for acts like 9/11!
Let’s just speak the truth and not lie in an attempt to keep people from being offended.
By Archie
August 31, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
“Ben… I am saying that if SUVs and other large passenger vehicles were no longer around we would be better off when it comes to our gasoline situation. The demand would be lower therefore prices would be lower.”
Ken I do agree with that paragraph but not a lot of other things you have said today. I will admit that I hate SUV’s and cellphones because it seems as if they are status symbols more than necessities. I don’t think the government needs to function pre-1932 and I think people want the government to solve some problems other than bombing a country that we know we can beat. I think of government as the people not some alien entity so I don’t have animosity towards government. I disagree with Republican politics but I don’t hate the government because then I would have to hate myself. There are things we can do to protect ourselves against rising gasoline costs such as catch the bus,carpool, and buy fuel-efficient cars. Protest must be encouraged as long as it’s lawful regardless of philosophy just to say something about the topic.
The government will do its part to help the people affected by this hurricane and it should because that’s what a church does and since conservatives say the country was founded on church principles you would expect a government of the people and by the people to help the people. That’s not a slight towards conservatives because liberals can be hypocritical too. Liberal atheists believe in doing good because it’s right well there’s an opportunity over the next few months to give blood,money, and time and you don’t have to say a word about God.
By Dusty
August 31, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
MarkMyWords,
You and the other giggling telemarketers ought to get back to work. You don’t know how to play the game of blogs. Here are the rules:
Americans all have the same rights and all are called Americans, whether you like it or not.
Opinions posted are usually our own. It is called free speech.
Name-calling is limited because it is ignorant.
Tobago likes to debate. You should learn how to do it. * There,MMW. Time for you to make another phone call.
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Poor Dusty.
I thought tab was dumb, but that he has a admirer/defender - now that is love! He should be so proud!
You have anything to say? I really do not hear anything but name calling and trolling from tab; you want to state otherwise?
Then I suggest you get a higher degree; so that, like me, you can watch the bloggers be idiots while dividends fill your account from the work YOUR employees are doing. Maybe a degree in law, then you could stand up for all the little crapolas stating the obvious elements of a discussion as if they are discovering something new and profound; your mom will be proud.
Little by little boys.
By lilith
August 31, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this
This is a very frightening quote from a conservative:
“The Bush administration is insane. If the American people do not decapitate it by demanding Bush’s impeachment, the Bush administration will bring about Armageddon. This may please some Christian evangelicals conned by Rapture predictions, but World War III will please no one else.” -Paul Craig Roberts
By MarkMyWords
August 31, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Hmmm.
Maybe Dusty=DoThis=taboga? (DDT? Sounds like we are on to something: A compound that rots kids brains; quite fitting.)
The trinity of ignorance! Praise the lord we have a sign - but it is spelled by a dyslexic.
By DoThisOne
August 31, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
We have it on good authority right here on this blog that only the Liberals engage in name-calling and the put-downing of people’s occupations.
Please disassociate me from The Trinity since I will not be able to take a shower until I get home, which I have to do after every recent State of the Union address anyway.
LOL
By Dusty
August 31, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
You don’t follow rules easy , do you, MMW? I don’t need another higher degree to recognize a telemarketer. Go back to work. But don’t call me. I don’t like nuisance calls.
By Jack
August 31, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this
Gas is now higher than beer. Think I’ll go shotgun a few cans. Everyone have a good one.
By DoThisOne
August 31, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
A conservative questioning both the war and Bush?
lynch that boy.
http://antiwar.com/roberts/
By Bruce
September 1, 2005 07:55 AM | Link to this
lilith,
There is nothing to worry about, the Bible says NOONE knows when this will happen but God Himself. Unless you think this Roberts guy is God.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 08:05 AM | Link to this
Morning Comrades,
We can always count on academia. Referring to the AJC article written by one our esteemed academia types of course.
Busy little beaver he was. The first camera shot of a black standing waist deep in water sent him Googling like a madman. He found what he was looking for too. Several articles warning of catastrophes for the poor - should New Orleans be hit my a major natural disaster.
He moans on about how no none cared enough to have a plan in place. An evacuation plan for all the “carless” as he called them. Nope, we were all too preoccupied with our “vacations” this summer to be concerned about the needy.
While all the real people are working hard to try and get some real help to all those folks, the sniveling little academia puke uses the disaster as an opportunity to condemn…
No doubt an award is forthcoming from Kennesaw for this great work.
By Ben
September 1, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
I can’t wait to see how many low-life creeps crawl out of the woodwork to take advantage of the hurricane victims and everyone else affected by Katrina. I’m sure we will see the “best” there is to offer.
By Brian Curtis
September 1, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this
Zack: Since this (tragically) is still not the abortion-oriented thread you’ve always dreamed of, I’ll keep this brief so as not to distract the others.
You constantly claim that “ALL EVIDENCE� supports your beliefs about abortion, but you regularly fail to provide any�medical, legal, biblical, or otherwise. So let’s keep it very simple: Should abortion be an option to protect the life and health of the mother? Yes or no.
On your other point….
I’m tired of hearing apologists saying Christianity is a peaceful religion… after all, Pat Robertson regularly calls for people he hates to die! And we know that all Christians are alike, right? So surely one wacko speaks for ALL of them. Just like with Muslims.
And let’s not forget the militia types, the “Christian� Klan members, the pedophile molestors of the Catholic church… Since all Christians are the same, then the whole religion is evil because a few of its members are! Just like with Muslims.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this
I hope the gas prices get a little higher because I am thinking of buying another SUV!
Because of the hysteria - there will be fewer people buying SUV’s. This will cause the prices of them to drop so they can move the vehicles.
I figure I will probably save two or three thousand on the new purchase because of this. I can then take that money and use it for gas.
You can’t beat it: A new SUV and a couple thousand bucks of free gas!
By Jack
September 1, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
Imagine if something like this were to happen in Atlanta. The looting & crime would be worse. Glad I exercise my right to bear arms. Everyone should.
By Ken
September 1, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this
Archie… I think we agree with more things that you think. We definitely, however, disagree with our views of the government.
I do not see the government as an “alien entity”. I did help to elect it. But we do see different roles. You see a caretaker. I see a protector. Too often, the citizens of this country want the government to solve their problems rather than do something themselves. Take the gas situation as an example.
People are already clamoring how the President is going to ease the cost of gasoline. We have already established that there are many things the citizens can do on their own to ease the cost of gasoline and protect themselves from the price fluctuations. Yet they want the government to do it, b/c they don’t want to make the sacrifice. This is just one example.
I want the government to do PRIMARILY two things: provide basic infrastructure (i.e. roads, schools, etc.) and to protect (i.e. police, firefighters, military, civil rights, etc.). That’s it. Not much more.
Healthcare? Nope. Retirement? Nope. Social Security? Nope. Welfare? Nope. Religion? Nope.
OMT… Of course situations like the hurricane this week should cause exceptional intervention from the government.
By Ben
September 1, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this
That didn’t take long — some loser shot at a helicopter evacuating people from the Superdome. I better get the tally sheet out.
By Guillermo
September 1, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
It is so amusing to see gas prices soar, and people clamoring for gas.
If years ago, people had not been so racist and scared of minorities, then the transit system would be in place and the gas prices would not have been such a big deal.
As the bible says, you reap what you sow.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
Guillermo that post sounds a bit racist itself.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Guillermo,
Make sure you get your Voter ID. The Dems are counting on folks like you!
By Archie
September 1, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
Ken we probably do agree more than I think. You are right that we disagree on the role of government but I am extremely glad that you don’t see the government as an alien entity because then you might have to shoot your neighbors other people you know that work for the government that vote republican. The thing is that many vote republican and do work for the government so when some nut decides to shoot or get mad at the government he doesn’t understand that he may getting mad at someone that agrees with him politically. The social security part of government was there before I was born and welfare was as well and I definitely agree with you that religion has no place in government and as for healthcare, I only support universal healthcare because the cost has exceeded the market’s ability to pay. I don’t view universal healthcare as a government thing just a different way to pay for it. I would love to go back to the days when I paid 50/month for health insurance. College tuition is getting to where it’s going to have to be controlled,in fact,there is republican in Houston,Texas that has proposed that very thing. My concept is more about sharing in the way that a church does things for it’s surrounding community. We have root out people scamming the government but there was a reason government programs are in place.
By CB
September 1, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
I don’t know Guillermo, considering the behavior of those looting minorities in New Orleans…maybe our fear of minorities is well placed. Should I risk offending the minorities because I don’t trust them or should I risk being a victim of one?
By Ken
September 1, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
Jack… I didn’t here racism in the Guillermo’s comment. What I heard was a self-congratulatory laugh at all of the people clamoring for gas.
The fact remains, he’s right. If the suburban counties had allowed MARTA to build 20 year ago, they would have better public transit and this would not be as big of a deal. They decided against it and now will feel the sting.
By Ben
September 1, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this
And they keep on coming —
Police said a man in Hattiesburg, Miss., fatally shot his sister in the head over a bag of ice. Dozens of carjackings were reported, including a nursing home bus and a truck carrying medical supplies for a hospital. Some police officers said they had been shot at.
Tenet HealthCare Corp. asked authorities late Wednesday to help evacuate a fully functioning hospital in Gretna, La., after a supply truck carrying food, water and medical supplies was held up at gunpoint.
By ThisBlogIsBullDung
September 1, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this
Alot of the looters in the southern Mississippi area are white.
By Archie
September 1, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
There have been some majority folk looting as well. The media has not focused on the gouging which is a different form of stealing. I have never lived in Atlanta so I don’t know if the Guiller guy is correct but so many things in the South were done out of prejudice against minorites. It is a truth that many in the majority are uncomfortable with and I would expect the slurs to start coming in the next few hours. A thug is just that and not a reflection of all people unless we look Pat Robertson as an example of all the people that look like him. I don’t accept Robertson anymore than I do these thugs shooting at people or McVeigh blowing up buildings. I think christians and members of the majority have a lot to be proud of and I also think many minorities have a lot to be proud of as well. Some of those thugs were thugs before the hurricane.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this
I have never lived in Atlanta so I don’t know if the Guiller guy is correct but so many things in the South were done out of prejudice against minorites
Like what?
By Ken
September 1, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this
Archie… Many of the programs I speak of were around well before I was born as well. And you’re right, they were created for necessary reasons AT THAT TIME. I can still make a determination that they don’t work, are no longer necessary or could be done in much better ways.
The issue is also not Republican or Democrat. You may assume b/c I support/defend the President on the war issue that I am Republican. For the most part I vote Republican b/c my other choices in Georgia are folks like Cynthia McKinney or John Lewis. Nothing could get me to vote for either.
And you bring up other great points. Healthcare has gotten much more expensive, but the fundamental costs have as well. We have so many more drugs than we did before. We have so many more surgeries than we did before. We have so many more EVERYTHING than we did before. That stuff isn’t cheap to research and create. Someone has to pay for it and unless the government does, then the cost of healthcare will increase. Quick example… When I was born they didn’t even have ultrasound/sonogram. Now you can get it in 3-D and in color. It costs money to create the equipment. It costs money to buy and use the equipment. Someone has to pay. It should be the people using it.
I look at putting healthcare in the hands of the government the same way I look at how schools are run in local communities. Everyone says they are important, but when it comes time for the school levy to build new buildings or raise teachers’ salaries, it gets voted down by many of the same people who say schools are important. I believe the same would happen with healthcare. If the government said “we need more money to fight cancer so we’re raising your taxes”, how many people would repsond with “I don’t have cancer, I don’t want my taxes raised”.
As for college… College here is Georgia is CHEAP if you go to a state school. My home state school was more for an in-state person than the Georgia college I attended as an out of state student. The State government does control college tuition. But noone should ever tell Northwestern, Duke, Harvard, Stanford, etc. what they can charge for tuition. They are PRIVATE.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this
Ken are you saying the mass transit in this city is good? That is a laugh. So that they could satisfy special interests, they ran the rail in a “T” as opposed to an “O”. If one wants to take the rail, they have to drive to the rail station to take the train, if you take the bus to the rail, it is an all day commute. Washington DC has excellent mass transit. Atlanta would have been better served had they modeled MARTA after the DC METRO.
By Archie
September 1, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
“Everyone says they are important, but when it comes time for the school levy to build new buildings or raise teachers’ salaries, it gets voted down by many of the same people who say schools are important.”
Ken that paragraph is so true, man. I am so happy to see that statement on this blog. My spouse is a teacher so I am a bit biased. I paid most of my tuition without my parents’ help when I went to college but of course I know things change I just would like to see young people work and pay their way. I live in South Carolina so I can’t speak on the Georgia tuition. Ken you do make a good point about the cancer and taxes as I have had that discussion with someone and it went just as you described. It’s just hard for me to see working people without health insurance to the tune of 45 million and then I go to church on Sunday…
As for South Carolina our governor Mark Sanford has said that the governor’s authority was purposefully weakened just in case a black guy became governor thus he has spent time trying to restructure state government and make all agency heads answer to the governor’s office, but like Jack said last week this blog is not about race. This is a good blog and it does have some intelligent people on it and some not so intelligent.
By Ken
September 1, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
Jack… Not at all. Mass Transit in this city SUCKS!
The city planner(s) did not work with the local government to coordinate mass transit and new developments.
The outer counties did not think ahead and work with Fulton/Dekalb/Atlanta government to hook into the mass transit system.
Instead, it appears everyone went for the shortsighted approach rather than the long term approach. I only hope that over the next several years, the people of New Orleans will take all of these lessons and rebuild that city right. Make good decisions for the LONG TERM, even if that means sacrificing short term conveniences.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this
Archie,
I have a solution to the 45 million (there aren’t that many) without health care.
Instead of coming home every afternoon and propping the feet up, take a part-time job for 15 or 20 hours a week at one of the thousands of places that are constantly seeking help.
See how easy that is? No government involvement. Less time on the couch getting fat. But more importantly - solving your own problems without all the whining!
BTW - Ever notice how we don’t need government programs for athletic shoes, Cable TV or Biggie-sized value meals? Nope, people always seem to be able to afford those things.
Strange how things work, isn’t it?
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
as an atlanta resident, i have to comment on the gas situation yesterday: people are morons. they sit in line for hours to get gas b/c they’re afraid of a shortage, but by doing so are only exacerbating the problem. their overblown fears of a shortage create demand that wouldn’t normally exist and end up creating…you guessed it - a shortage! a bunch of people interviewed on tv said they went and got in line b/c they saw a bunch of other people doing it and figured they better get gas too. gotta love the heard mentaility.
now we’ll have all the do-gooders run around and talk about how the governor should go after gas stations for price gouging. if you sit in line for an hour, RUNNING YOUR ENGINE, while waiting to pay $5.00 for a gallon of gas, you deserve to be separated from your money.
By lozen
September 1, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Again, politics is keeping women from having a pill on the market that would prevent pregnancy when taken the day after. The pill prevents the fertilized egg from attaching but I heard some man with an anti-abortion group say that is abortion because it’s already a potential human being! Where will these people stop? The pill is medically approved and safe, but the FDA has delayed again and that means years before it gets approved. The woman in charge of women’s health with FDA has resigned in protest; she says this is politically motivated and has nothing to do with medical issues. This doesn’t make any sense. Please speak out in the next few days for a woman’s right to control her reproductive life! And to all women and men who care about women, they say this Plan B pill is a highly concentrated dose of the birth control pill. Help us get the information out that taking a large amount of birth control pills after an “accident” may prevent pregnancy.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
blablabla,
Amen to that!
By taboga
September 1, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this
Lozen,
Whatta ya think about the Falcons letting Peerless go and will Arnold seek re-election in California?
By joe
September 1, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Blablabla, just because you would have sat in line for an hour running your engine to get gas yesterday doesn’t mean anyone else did! Toe booger would of course!
By Ben
September 1, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this
Taboga, very good points.
By Archie
September 1, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
C’mon Taboga we know you got the smarts so don’t put out ignorant stuff to get things going. People are already working second jobs. People don’t buy high-dollar athletic shoes every month and biggie sized meals are irrelevant to healthcare costs. As for cable not everyone has it and the 45 million figure has not been disputed by anyone but you. This figure was mentioned in USA today,various newspapers around the country. With the internet you can read many states’ newspapers. I mean at least approach the issue the way Ken does with some reasoning. Ken brought up a good point that the people have to fund the programs they want which means taxes. Psychologically some folk would rather pay 700 dollars/month to health insurance company that’s going to gouge them, than pay 100 dollars/month go to government. We are the only nation of our status to not have universal healthcare. At some we have to admit our stuff stinks and we have to what other countries do to clean it up. I have Directv and I don’t biggie size anything and I do have health insurance. So why do I care? Because it’s going to affect me sometime in the future.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
joe - i didn’t sit around waiting for gas, you moron. that was the point. if you live in atlanta, you’d know that tens of thousands of people waited in long lines to pay inflated gas prices yesterday over trumped up fears of a shortage.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this
Won’t be long before Zack & Randy jump at the opportunity to reply to Lozen’s post. Lozen I agree with you. The morning after pill is not an “abortion” pill.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this
Archie says: Psychologically some folk would rather pay 700 dollars/month to health insurance company that’s going to gouge them, than pay 100 dollars/month go to government. We are the only nation of our status to not have universal healthcare. At some we have to admit our stuff stinks and we have to what other countries do to clean it up.
first of all, archie, you don’t understand the first thing about economics if you think that people are paying $700/month for health care to an insurance company and then would only have to pay $100 to the government for the same level of service and coverage. and before you reply “but it’s free in europe”, realize that it is not free, it’s paid for in other, indirect ways.
furthermore, if you think our health coverage stinks, try getting sick in the UK or Canada where they have universal health care. the doctors are not as well trained, don’t have the most sophisticated equipment, and it typically takes far, far longer to actually get in to see the doctor - so you live with the problem for a much greater period of time. universal health care from our government is the last thing you want if you prefer to remain upright.
By Brian Curtis
September 1, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this
Ben: Not really. At least half of the people on federal assistance are already working full-time, and part-time jobs don’t offer healthcare coverage.
Pretending that the uninsured are “lazy and shiftless” is another neocon dodge. It helps them to pretend that medical care is just another consumer commodity that you can “skip” if your budget is tight.
By Guillermo
September 1, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this
These comments I made were not racist. I simply stated a fact. Accept responsibility for the way that things are.
Why are we as Americans so filled with fear and paranoia? We fear a gas shortage, so we run to the tanks. We fear that thugs will run into our houses if there is a transit system that goes out to the suburbs, so we dismiss the idea of an effective transit system. We fear a tropical storm, or some other natural catastrophe, so we run out and buy all the bread, milk, and water in the grocery store. We fear the year 2000, so we run around scared that all the clocks, computers, will reset.
If we are such a religious country as most of you say, then why are we afraid. God takes care of his people, right?
By Ben
September 1, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this
Archie - I normally agree with you, but I’m not sure about this healthcare thing. First, I wouldn’t give a whole lot of credence to those healthcare-less numbers, considering it probably includes illegal aliens and people too lazy to do what it takes to provide “necessaties.” And universal healthcare, run by the government, will probably equate to mediocre healthcare. Like it or not, healthcare is kind of a business — those with the best doctors, facilities and treatment make more money. If the government got their hands on it, healthcare will turn into equally medicore assistance, with no incentive for advancement in treatment, technology or science.
By JohnR
September 1, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
As far as this topic goes, I don’t really think that the media is against the Antiwar protest at all; however, shaunti’s comment about August being a “slow” news month when we lost 40 + soldiers in a matter of a couple of weeks says something about our perception of the war, and how important we view the sacrifices of those who fight it, which seems to me to be not very much. This war is an intellectual exercise for two extreme points of view. Until Cindy Shehann put a face to the human cost of this war, we largely debated it’s merits in abstract terms. It doesn’t really matter how you feel about her, or the war, because nobody’s coming home anytime soon, but I think that she has at least made us start to think about the real costs of this war.
Clearly her original lonely vigil outside of Crawford was a more powerful image, than her co-opted by radlib organizations scripted message has become. Frankly, when Joan Baez shows up, your movement has definitely “jumped the shark”.
But it also says something about the radcons when they start attacking a typical frowsy housewife type in anguish over losing her son. You may not like her point of view, but attacking the lady really does a dis-service to your own cause, particularly when we are talking about someone who is not a “pro”.
The coverage of the Hurricane, particularly the looters just re-inforces our stereotypes about african-americans. It’s a shame, really, considering that New orleans is a cesspool now, and looting really doesn’t matter since none of those goods can possibly be resold anyway. But networks know how much we love to see AA males breaking the law, and how pathologically lazy and worthless the poor really are, and how we are going to have to save them in spite of themselves AGAIN because they are so hopelessly worthless, and this makes us feel really good inside because the media reaffirms our own sense of self-worth. Which is why we can rant and rave on this blog about our own righteousness regardless of political stripe.
Liberal? Conservative? you tell me.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
Archie,
Anyone who goes without health care for even a brief time - is considered a person without health care for the entire year for which the count is done.
A large percentage of people without health care have chosen not to have it. Example: A lot of self-employed folks choose not to have it and would rather pay for medical services when needed.
I don’t want to get into a long debate about health care, but when you boil it all down - there are very few (relatively speaking) people who want health care and are unable to obtain it.
If there were a Jeopardy question that stated: “The most costly and low quality health care plan in the world”…
Answer: “What is Medicare?
And run by the Federal Government of course…
By Archie
September 1, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this
blablabla I was just using an example. I have no idea what the actual,actual costs of universal would be. Many people have cited those same things about other countries but since this is America you just know we can do things better. I never said our healthcare stinks for those that do have it. Ben don’t be in denial about those numbers as they were cited during last presidential campaign and Brian Curtis will have to take over because I have to work a second job…
By Ken
September 1, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this
Archie… I have a very basic issue with universal healthcare provided by the government. Control.
In a public school, the government has the ability to control nearly everything that goes on in that school: the curriculum, the dress code, the food being served, the hours, etc. I think you get the point. The government pays for it with our taxes and then set the standards.
If the government provides healthcare, will they control what doctor’s can prescribe? Will they control how we as citizens choose to live? Will they mandate diet and exercise? I know that I, as a taxpayer who doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke, doesn’t take any kind of illegal drug and exercises, don’t want to have to continually foot the bill for people who simply refuse to take care of themselves. It’s simply not right.
By Ben
September 1, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this
Well my concern about that 45 million number is due to the fact that it doesn’t specify if it’s people without healthcare, people who can’t afford it, or both. Because, I have to agree with Taboga, because their are A LOT of people that “pay as they go,” and I’m sure it include illegal aliens. (after all, they get in state tuition, and are counted as citizens.) I’m almost inclined to say that number of people that can’t afford healthcare is less than half of that 45 million, so if you take that into account, and compare it to the number of illegal aliens; I think we arrive at the solution. Get rid of the illegals and give the able-bodied poor people their jobs.
By joe
September 1, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
“…but when you boil it all down - there are very few (relatively speaking) people who want health care and are unable to obtain it.”
You are a very stupid person.
By ThisBlogsIsBullDung
September 1, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this
See all those Canadians and Europeans dropping like flies?
Not to mention their NON-existent ecomomies, why they cannot even get contracts around the world.
yep, a real bad thing up/over there, real bad.
oh, isn’t the EURO currently the world’s STRONGEST currency? Must be all that ‘socialistic’ government behaviour.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
Guillermo. I’m not responsible for the way things are. Why should I accept it?
By Guillermo
September 1, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this
Jack, Accepting responsibility is one of the things that the Republican Party advocates. The people that don’t have healthcare don’t have it because they don’t want it. The people that are poor are poor because of their choices. The people making billions of dollars are rich because they made good decisions; therefore, they should not have to be taxed because they made good decisions and worked hard.
By Ken
September 1, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this
BullDung… What in creation are you trying to say…?
Not sure about Europeans, but Canadians often get put into several month waiting lists to see a doctor. This has been reported on a variety of newsshows and newspapers.
Currency strength fluctuates like every econmy does, sometimes teh dollar is high, low or in between. If you want to do some research, take a look at unemployment rates. I suspect that the US would be much smaller than others.
One more thing… I don’t see people here dropping like flies either.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this
Joe,
Are you kids gonna post this afternoon under my name as you normally do?
By Ken
September 1, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Guillermo… You are correct on the Republican party views with a lot of the points you made except one…
They don’t believe that the wealthy should be taxed at much higher percentages as everyone else.
They don’t believe that a person’s estate should be taxed when they pass away.
They don’t believe in redistribution of wealth from one part of society to another.
By lozen
September 1, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
ThisBlogisBullDung, you make some very good points about all those Canadians and Europeans who are dying for lack of good health care, and about whose currency is on top at the present time. They also, at least in Europe, put their money where our mouths are in valuing the family enough to shorten working hours so families actually have some time together!
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Guillermo
dilusional much? poor people are poor because of bad choices? rich people shouldn’t be taxed for making good choices? I’m sorry… but the majority of rich people are rich by inheritance…not choices. I’m sure you’ve seen all the little teen brats running around getting away with everything because of daddy’s money. Sure there are those that are rich that work hard and make smart investments and I’m happy for them.
Not all poor people are poor because of bad choices either. Hardships happen, even with medical insurance my cancer treatments took a major toll on our finances and there are people that have it MUCH worse cases that cause for them to be ‘poor’.
I’m not poor nor am I rich, what does that make me? do I make bad choices or good choices? I work to make ends meet, I can enjoy a few luxuries but not much, I have 3 adopted animals that would have been put down if someone hadn’t adopted them so part of my money goes there. Was that a ‘bad’ choice to save these defensless animals? It must have been seeing that I’m not rich!
By taboga
September 1, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
You folks want to see just who your friendly neighborhood Leftist really is, just take a gander at the democraticunderground site - where their pretentiousness has no boundaries whatsoever!
How on earth those little turds can turn the tragedy in the Gulf Coast into another Anti-Bush rally - is far beyond any attempt at comprehension…
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
Ken & Guillermo…
if those things happened, we’d have a capitalist society…
why should the rich pay for other people to live (especially those that work hard for their money). I’m in the middle ground financially and I would be highly opposed to having part of my money to go to those that don’t make as much. If that’s what we want why not have a base salary that everyone makes regardless of the job. Hell I wouldn’t have spent as long in school and went to work for McD’s and have an easy life.
why should the weathly be “punished” (higher taxes, etc.) for being wealthy?
By Jack
September 1, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
Guillermo. You must be on some good drugs.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
lozen & bulldung - where do a large percentage of canadian doctors come to study? the US. where is health care the most sophisticated? the US. where is life expectancy the longest? the US. where do you go to see a doctor quickly? the US. what’s the most advanced nation in the world that doesn’t have government run healthcare? the US. Notice a pattern?
furthermore, bulldung, your comment about currency has to be the most misplaced remark i’ve read all week. first of all, strength of currency doesn’t have anything to do with a debate on health care. nor is strength of currency the only, or even most important barometer of who’s economy is the healthiest. ever hear of inflation? unemployment? real wage growth? gdp growth? secondly, and take careful note of this… i said the UK and Canada. Neither of those two countries have the Euro as their currency last time i checked. so your comment about currency completely missed the mark. try again, but this time, try harder.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges:
you wrote: “I’m sorry… but the majority of rich people are rich by inheritance…not choices.”
i can’t tell if you were quoting guillermo or making your own point. but that text of yours that i quoted above is totally false. the overwhelming majority of millionaires in this country are self made, first generation rich.
By Ken
September 1, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges… I’m with you bro. I was trying to get Guillermo and others off the crack.
I don’t want ANYONE, including the government, taking my money and giving it to someone else. All of my previous posts should make my stance on that VERY clear.
BTW… If I read correctly, Europoean countries actually force their workers to only work a certain number of hours each day/week/etc. They force a balance of life.
The concept of a balanced life is well and good, but that restricts the ability for highly motivated individuals to accomplish more, build wealth, move out of their current station in life.
I don’t ever hear of any Bill Gates or Sam Walton types that amass and build personal fortunes through hard work and innovation. I see their system as a way for the European upper crust to keep the groundlings down.
I choose balance in my life and accept the fact that I will never be ultra-wealthy. At least I had the choice.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
One of your fellow Libs believes that President Bush is using hurricanes to wipe out the poor:
Time to face facts: Bush has declared a silent war on urban poor.
They will be dead by the time federal rescue efforts get there, and the end result will be one more red state.
There is no other logical explanation for the deliberate and consistent failure to take basic, adequate steps to help those in need.
You can’t tell me that they couldn’t have gotten a national guard contingent with some Deer Park trucks and standard food supplies by now.
It is simply unthinkable that these basic and obvious steps haven’t been taken yet.
No food and water for three days = systematic elimination of urban poor.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges:
you said: “If that’s what we want why not have a base salary that everyone makes regardless of the job. Hell I wouldn’t have spent as long in school and went to work for McD’s and have an easy life.”
if everybody has a “base salary” or “living wage” or whatever people want to call it, the mcdonald’s employee still wouldn’t have fundamentally changed their real wages. why doesn’t anybody ever understand this? if we paid everyone who works at mcdonalds $50,000 per year, a happy meal would cost $25 instead of $4 b/c of all the employee costs. the mcdonald’s employee wouldn’t be any better off because all the prices of all our goods would simply be massively inflated versus where they are today.
you can’t pay people a “living wage” and not have the cost of their added income be paid by somebody else somewhere else in the economic chain.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this
blablabla (fitting name btw). Ok so majority is the wrong word (I stand corrected although I haven’t seen statistical facts to prove either of us right or wrong). But there are a lot of rich that are inherited. And some of the self-made rich probably didn’t do it honestly. (key word some, not all).
By ThisBlogIsBullDung
September 1, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
missed the mark? hardly since my post just indicated how terribly destructive anything that could be construed as ‘socialism’ is for an economy.
ya right. And the Europeans are doing quite well with the way they do things. Obviously as indicated by their weak currency. What did Canada and the U.K. have to do with the Euro again? Missed that in my International Finance courses.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
if everybody has a “base salary� or “living wage� or whatever people want to call it, the mcdonald’s employee still wouldn’t have fundamentally changed their real wages. why doesn’t anybody ever understand this?
And the reality of it is - even fewer people will understand it in the future.
We are evolving into a society of blithering idiots…
By Guillermo
September 1, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges, which one is it? Are they rich from inheritance or rich from hard work?
The poor should be taxed more. They had some hardships, so deal with it. If they had been smart, they would have gotten themselves out of the predicament. And like Ken said, if they chose to not work hard to get wealth and weren’t lucky enough to be born into, make it harder.
I believe the wealthy should have it easier. They made good decisions, had lots of good luck, and were born into wealth.
Take from the poor, and give to the rich.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
ken - I find it funny that the european countries are forcing a balanced life when, if I’m not mistaken, they are the “founding” fathers of a caste system.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
bulldung - no problem. i’ll dumb it down for you:
i said UK and canada. you responded with commentary on the strength of the euro. the UK and canada don’t have the euro as their currency. i can’t make it any more simple than that.
i never made any point about socialism.
By ThisBullisFullaDung
September 1, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
I know Paris Hilton is a self-made millionaire, I seen it on the telly. She’s a HAWT movie star.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Toober-face, it’s your lucky day, as I’m actually going to respond to you. Our fearless swagger-in-chief has ignored our domestic security needs for YEARS, in favor of cutting taxes to the rich folks, and spending more money than we actually HAVE attacking and occupying a country that never attacked us. When communities requested money to support their infrastructures, like N.O. and their levy systems, they were turned down because the money just HAD to go into the pockets of energy and insurance company executives, and to the good folks at Halliburton, of course. He cares NOTHING about the poor people, who, in every single pre-planning scenario, were stuck with no way out of town when disaster came ashore. Wanna talk about how he was too busy with his vacation and his pro-war speeches to stop and make sure the appropriate national guard forces and relief resources were mobilized and ready to jump in as soon as the winds died down? Noooooo…. Right.
Oh no Toober-head… I’m sure I’m wrong. I’m sure the bastard shed ONE whole tear for the poor people who are drowning in sewage right now.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges:
blablabla (fitting name btw). Ok so majority is the wrong word (I stand corrected although I haven’t seen statistical facts to prove either of us right or wrong). But there are a lot of rich that are inherited. And some of the self-made rich probably didn’t do it honestly. (key word some, not all).
if you’re so certain about how many people inherit wealth, why don’t you look it up and prove me wrong? go ahead, i’ll wait. i know the answer. or, alternatively, you can continue to spout babble and demonstrate to us all how ignorant you are. your choice…
and “some of the self-made rich probably didn’t do it honestly”. of course somebody successfully cheated or slimed their way to riches. i can’t imagine that somebody couldn’t have. but what point does that prove? nothing. that sounds strikingly similar to something howard dean would say.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
Guillermo - who said anything about taking from the poor and giving to the rich.
And JUST LIKE everything else in the world, nothing is black and white. SOME are rich by inheritance and SOME are rich by hard work and SOME are rich by cheating and lying their way to get there.
SOME are poor by bad choices and SOME are poor by bad circumstances that couldn’t be foreseen.
What is this with the “which is it?” questions? There is no which is it..there is no one way or the other..sometimes it can be both!
if we paid everyone who works at mcdonalds $50,000 per year, a happy meal would cost $25 instead of $4 b/c of all the employee costs. the mcdonald’s employee wouldn’t be any better off because all the prices of all our goods would simply be massively inflated versus where they are today.
Uhmm… How would the mcd employee not be better off? Looks like EVERYONE would suffer from the inflations. everyone would have to pay the $25 for a happy meal. looks like it would be a pretty even playing field.
And you ask why no one can understand it? BECAUSE YOU DON’T MAKE SENSE!!!! I guess I’m a blithering idiot but I’m a blithering idiot that worked hard in school and makes a lot more money than a mcd employee and not paying $25 for a happy meal. I’m happy with that arangement.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this
Take from the poor, and give to the rich.
I’ve always wondered how that happens…
I thought that being “poor” meant you didn’t have anything. If so, then what is there to take?
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
No rich person is “self-made.” No one “made all that money all by himself” unless he physically, personally cranked it out of his OWN arse. You see, in order to make money, you have to live in a society where people have it to spend on your product or offering. And you have to have people who are educated enough to work for you to make and distribute your product or offering. And you can do more business if your employees have the means to get to work and are healthy enough to work. Ditto for your prospective consumers. So if you live in a society where you’re the only one with any wealth, then you won’t sleep well at night, waiting for the impoversished masses to come slit your throat and take what you have. If your neighbors have full bellies, they’re less likely to slit your throat for the last hog in the county. You make your money in a SOCIETY that makes it possible to be as rich as people are in this country. You then owe it to your society, and your own best interst, to look out for the well-being of others, to some reasonable degree. OR, Mister self-made men out there, you can just go BURN IN HELL with all your money you love so much. Praise the Lord, Amen.
By BullThis
September 1, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
blabla - this may come as a total shock to you and your obviously blotted ego, but not every post put on this blog is addressed to you or any meandering snottiness you may have said.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this
Kimberly. I didn’t think you were a socialist.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
Uhmm… How would the mcd employee not be better off? Looks like EVERYONE would suffer from the inflations. everyone would have to pay the $25 for a happy meal. looks like it would be a pretty even playing field.
buildingbridges - so frustrating…you answered your own question, but unfortunately you’re missing the point. the employee isn’t better off b/c everybody gets hurt by the inflation, including the employee. if you go from making $50,000 today to making $100,000 next year, but the price of everything doubled, would you be better off? NO! because your REAL WAGES didn’t change. giving everybody at least some kind of base salary doesn’t change their real wages, because everybody else’s wages and the cost of everything would also adjust.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
blablah and blah and blah and blah…
if you’re so certain about how many people inherit wealth, why don’t you look it up and prove me wrong? go ahead, i’ll wait. i know the answer. or, alternatively, you can continue to spout babble and demonstrate to us all how ignorant you are. your choice…
All I have to say to this is… HAHAHAHA.. yeah I’m going to jump to do this keep waiting, I’m busy.
I didn’t say I was out to prove you wrong, I just said I didn’t have the facts in front of me to know who was right and wrong, nor do I really care your the one that obsessed with it. I honestly don’t give a rip I just know not every rich person worked HARD for it. I chose a wrong word when saying marjority. please forgive me oh wise one.
I refuse to continue down this road of sending and recieving insults. You don’t know anything about me or what I do and do not know so don’t presume to call me ignorant.
And my GOODNESS what was your point on focusing on that one mistake instead of the POINT I was trying to make. talk about nitpicking bullcrap. I’m through with this ‘argument’ there are other ACTUAL important things to discuss.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Kimberly…how can you follow “burn in hell” with “praise the Lord, Amen” for it’s stated in the bible as a sin to wish anyone to go to hell.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this
building bridges:
I chose a wrong word when saying marjority. please forgive me oh wise one.
you’re forgiven.
By BullThis
September 1, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
I am sure the commmittee being put together to study the problem in New Orleans will eventually come up with some solutions, like bulldozers maybe.
Louisiana representatives are mentioning that they have been requesting additional funds for several years now, but it all got turned down. “F N.O.” so to speak, probably vote Democratic anyway.
By Bruce
September 1, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
Why are we, the US, the most powerful country in the world? Becuase we do not do thing here like everyone else around the world. We do it the American way. If we wamt to keep it the “land of the free and the home of the brave” maybe we should make a few adjustments OUR way not pattern ourselfs after everyone else in the world.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Time to send you pretentious Leftists into cardiac arrest.
The poor are nothing but a ball and chain to this society. They have never done a damn thing for themselves - much less anyone else.
But for some convoluted and mystical reason, it’s as if they are entitled to anything and everything that comes down the pike. And this pathetic kowtowing to the “poor” by those who really don’t give a damn beyond parading themselves around as the righteous among us - is about as sickening as it gets!
And for all you little goobers spouting all your feel-good drivel about how they need health care and the like - I’ll make you a bet.
Give each one of them $10,000.00 tomorrow, and for each one you can show me who has used the money for “health care”, I will show you ten who have nothing left but receipts from hotels in Panama City and empty beer cans from where they laid out of work to get drunk!
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
Jack, what IS a socialist? The Nazis were fascists, but they called themselves “socialists” to gain public acceptance. The Soviets were communists, but they called themselves “socialists” to gain public acceptance. In America, anyone who favors taxation, and the appropriate use of the collected funds, is called a “socialist.” I don’t use that label for myself. I was pointing out that NO ONE is truly “self-made” in terms of wealth. It is the grace of God or whatever they call their creator, that they CAN achieve what they set out to do, and work hard to achieve.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this
bla
no honey.. YOUR missing your own point…
lets put it in baby terms.
person A (mcd employee): starting salary - 20,000 salary after - 50,000
person B (lawyer): starting salary - 100,000 salary after - 50,000
everybodies real wages have changed regardless of things inflating. If wages didn’t change and things inflated, person B would be less affected whereas person A would be. (example: the gas inflation). but if all of a sudden there was a cap and everyone was required to make 50,000 regardless of their career, the person B would feel the inflation more because of being used to living a more extravegant lifestyle and the sudden cut in pay. Why is THAT so hard to understand?
Ever think that your frustrating me too? hmm… what goes around comes around.
By Mike R
September 1, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Once again you libs have missed the mark. Ms Cindy had her talk with the president. She was thanked for offering she made. She then slaps the country and the president in the face. Her 15 minuts was not enough. She want more. Her son signed on the dotted line twice and served his country, with honor giving his life for it and his beliefs. Now a tratorus woman with the help of the mike moores of the world along with moveon.org money put her face in front of any liberal TV station that pointed a camera her way to shame this country and blame everything from bad crops in India to beaching of whales on President Bush. It is funny how, now that more important more pressing matters are in the fore front of the news ms cindy has called it quits. Sorry moveon.org and mike moore have pulled the funding.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this
Kimberly. I didn’t think you were a socialist.
Has she ever posted anything that would make you think she wasn’t…?
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
Building bridges, I never claimed to be a good Christian, but I will acknowledge that it is not my decision who goes to hell.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this
bla hahah..thanks. feels good to be forgiven. =P
(btw, I argue venemently (sp?) but I hope that no hard feelings are left, I have nothing person against anyone here).
By taboga
September 1, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
everybodies real wages have changed regardless of things inflating. If wages didn’t change and things inflated, person B would be less affected whereas person A would be. (example: the gas inflation). but if all of a sudden there was a cap and everyone was required to make 50,000 regardless of their career, the person B would feel the inflation more because of being used to living a more extravegant lifestyle and the sudden cut in pay. Why is THAT so hard to understand?
Goodness gracious!
I speak two languages - but goober is not one of them. Can someone please decipher that for me? Thanks in advance.
By MarkMyWords
September 1, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Tab, You state: “I thought that being “poorâ€? meant you didn’t have anything. If so, then what is there to take?”
No, here is the definition for you (seeeing as you must be one of the newly birthed blithering idiots).
*poor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr)
adj. poor·er, poor·est
Having little or no wealth and few or no possessions.
Lacking in a specified resource or quality: an area poor in timber and coal; a diet poor in calcium. Not adequate in quality; inferior: a poor performance.
Lacking in value; insufficient: poor wages. Lacking in quantity: poor attendance. Lacking fertility: poor soil. Undernourished; lean. Humble: a poor spirit. Eliciting or deserving pity; pitiable: couldn’t rescue the poor fellow.*
Seeing as we ALL know that one must make $5k/yr (or here abouts) to be taxed; the option of “No Wealth” does not apply.
Example for you, seeing as abstract is not your forte: The African diamond workers got paid 2.25 a day, but the busses to/fro work costed them 2.50 a day. SEE HOW YOU CAN TAKE FRO THE POOR? And your comments disrespect all those who fight this type of slavery.
Seeing as I blew your simple minded comment out of the water, showing you have no productive use {and by god, hopefully no re-productive use either!}; how about you fess up you are nothing but a Troll. Not a debater looking for truth, just a plain out annoyance.
Dusty? The other Tab defendant? What were you all saying about tab just wanting to debate? And no name calling is a rule to adhere to? C’mon and stand up for your alias!
Show me how his prose would illuminate ANY conversation…Frustrate maybe, but never illuminate.
{There is now a paper written by two Quantum Physisist that such a thing as negative information exists [the more you hear, the LESS you know] - We have had proof of this by the grace of Tab for quite some time!}
By taboga
September 1, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
Example for you, seeing as abstract is not your forte: The African diamond workers got paid 2.25 a day, but the busses to/fro work costed them 2.50 a day. SEE HOW YOU CAN TAKE FRO THE POOR? And your comments disrespect all those who fight this type of slavery.
For anyone who might be deciphering the gooberish from my earlier request - could you throw the little office boy’s slobbering in there as well. Thanks.
By DoThisOne
September 1, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
MarkMyWords
Thank you, my day is now complete.
hilarious.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this
taboga - you have nothing to do with that particular debate, you have contributed nothing to it. I have done nothing to earn your ‘insults’ and will not justify your comments with an explaination of what I meant.
By Bruce
September 1, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Sounds to me like Kimberly is tired of working and wants someone else to pay her bills for her. Just quit your job and sign up for welfare, we’ll take care of you.
By Guillermo
September 1, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
Kimberly, your 2:12 post is hilarious. Would the masses come with torches and machetes?
By taboga
September 1, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
Hmmm…
Joe is that you out there? Are you now posting your childishness as MarkMyWords? And it also appears that you have a 3rd alias (BlowingThatOne) so as to congratulate yourself on your foolishness.
You’ve got some issues son. And the blog ain’t where you need to be visiting…
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this
Bruce, what are YOU smoking, and are you dealing it too?
Do you have so little to say that you can only TWIST and FABRICATE the statements of others? I would only have people admit that in a civilized society, we rely on each other, even those whose egos are so inflated that they imagine themselves to be “self-made.” But it’s more fun to make up BULLCRAP to say about me, right? Yeah, YOU’RE a pillar among men, I’m sure.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
taboga - you have nothing to do with that particular debate, you have contributed nothing to it. I have done nothing to earn your ‘insults’ and will not justify your comments with an explaination of what I meant.
I don’t have to have anything to do with the debate - and my insults are free of charge. You’re a Leftist and so therefore you’ve earned them.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
before I get upset here…
taboga - blowingthatone? are you referring to me?
By taboga
September 1, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
before I get upset here…
taboga - blowingthatone? are you referring to me?
I really don’t give a damn whether you get “upset” or not, but no moron - I was referring to “DoThisOne”. Think on it for a while and it might register…
By MarkMyWords
September 1, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
Tab,
Two languages, and you could not reply in either?
You must require the puppeteer to have his hand up your * for you to speak?
Any takers on reaching up into tab to see if there is sense to be found? Kimberly seems to know whats in every mans heart(I mean “persons” - did not mean to exlude the women there! [added for for lozens female inf cmplx]). I am just not sure if she also know whats in a persons gullet too.
Go to hell, but praise god!! Best I heard in a while. Yep, I am in GA!
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Whhooaa.. OK where I have NO reason to even try to defend myself here. I resent the ‘label’.
I’m conservative, republican, whatever label you want. I don’t know what you’ve been reading but I have not on any level approved of a capitalist society. I have stayed out of most of the heavy debates on the “rights and wrongs” of politics today so you have no basis of labelling me one way or the other.
Again.. I have done nothing to deserve your insults and I don’t understand the sudden desire for meaness on your end towards me.
By Ken
September 1, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges… Thanks for clarifying your $50K salary idea. That helps only to clarify how much about human nature you don’t understand. Here’s the problem.
Everyone would want to work at McDonald’s. You would not have very many doctors, lawyers, pilots, etc. because noone would want the hassle/pressure/responsibility.
Why go to school, study, better yourself and get a job where you have to work hard and make sacrifices if you’re getting paid the same as the dude flipping burgers? There’s no point. I can’t think of too many folks who would volunteer for all of the sacrifice of a career without the reward.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
Oh, it’s good enough for Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell, but not for lil’ ol’ me, huh? Haha!
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Well Taboga, since you suddenly starting picking on me I had no idea if you were making a “play on words” or not with my username. I didn’t want to spout off without knowing who you were referring to. I don’t know what the HELL is your problem but get the f off my back!
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Ken - Why go to school, study, better yourself and get a job where you have to work hard and make sacrifices if you’re getting paid the same as the dude flipping burgers? There’s no point. I can’t think of too many folks who would volunteer for all of the sacrifice of a career without the reward.
I COMPLETELY agree and never stated otherwise as you’ll notice in the first few posts about this. I was not advicating this idea.. I was making the point that if that were true I wouldn’t have spent so much time and effort in school to have a different career that in return pays better.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
KEN - this is what helped start that converstation… from me:
*why should the rich pay for other people to live (especially those that work hard for their money). I’m in the middle ground financially and I would be highly opposed to having part of my money to go to those that don’t make as much. If that’s what we want why not have a base salary that everyone makes regardless of the job. Hell I wouldn’t have spent as long in school and went to work for McD’s and have an easy life. *
By Bruce
September 1, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Did I strike a nerve Kimberly? I’m all for helping those that help themselves, but I think it a very dumb idea to take what I have and give it to someone else just because I have it to give. It should be MY choice as to what I do with MY money and no one elses no matter how much I have.
It is so funny how you liberials scream all day about the government should stay out of peoples private lives but yet you have no problem wanting them to stick their hands in the wealthy folks pocket so you can have some of what they earned. Go earn you own money and then maybe you can live your life how you choose.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this
Yes, Bruce, you did. No one pays my bills, and I never asked anyone to, either. I struggle to stay afloat in the middle class and support my kids. But I don’t recall saying lazy people should lay down and we’ll get Bruce’s money for them. I’m frankly, quite weary of hearing that particular criticism of anyone who doesn’t openly despise poor people. If you worked hard for what you have, that’s great. You were ABLE to, and you live in a society where you COULD. If you had contracted ALS or some other debilitating condition, you’d be drooling in a wheelchair someplace waiting to be wiped up, and you’d be POOR and you’d contribute nothing. Should we then just dump you in the flood waters and wave buh-bye because you can’t contribute? What about kids? One-third of the people on welfare are KIDS. Should they be hungry? What did they do? “Culture of LIFE, my A—!”
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
buildingbridges - your example is very far from what i thought you were advocating. most of those who advocate for a base salary or living wage don’t include the concept of making EVERYBODY earn the same amount, just that those on the bottom end of the shelf get some living wage.
in your example, the problem is that nobody would ever want to do anything but work at mcdonalds. in fact, why pay anybody anything and just call it the USSR at that point.
my point about a living wage was simple - if the mcd’s employee goes from $25k - $50k, more than likely everybody else’s wages will increase proportionately as well, therefore the real wages of the mcd’s employee (and his/her lot in life) hasn’t changed one iota. it ain’t the size of the number in your W-2. it’s how much you can buy with it that matters.
By Jack
September 1, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
Yes I want to work my tail off to make lots of money so that I can hand it over to someone who doesn’t do squat. NOT
By Brian Curtis
September 1, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
Really, Bruce? Then how come so many conservatives are willing to leave your wallet alone (not much, they’re not) but very, very concerned with how everyone lives their lives? It’s the conservatives who want to pass laws about who you date and how you screw, what drugs you’re allowed to take (even with a prescription!), where you pray and who you pray to, what you say in public (Hi, Cindy!), what you can watch on TV, how many kids you have, and so on.
“Live how you choose”? What a laugh. Conservatives haven’t been on that bandwagon in decades… since the neocons and Religious Reich starting grabbing power in their ranks.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
Bruce, ‘nother question: All this wealth you EARNED… Can you honestly say you made it all by yourself? ‘Nother question, my GOOD man: did you earn it without SCREWING anyone over in the process? Even a little bit? Honestly, swear to God you didn’t screw anyone over, even legally? And if you made your money in the insurance or banking industries, we already know the answer to that!
By Tim
September 1, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
kimberly… I agree with you most of the time… but you need to be careful about who you say ‘screws’ people over… my grandparents worked their asses off in the insurance industry… they owned an insurance agency for over 15 years (recently sold it)… I don’t remember my grandmother ‘screwing’ anyone over… what I do remember is her getting into the office at 5:00 a.m. and usually leaving between 8 and 9 at night (and not leaving at all during the day)… and I also remember when people would call her or would come in saying how they were struggling that month and having a hard time paying their insurance… you know what I remember my grandmother doing?… it wasn’t saying “too bad your poor”… I saw her get her personal check book out and pay that persons insurance for them… I saw her do this on more than one occasion… so please be careful what you say… I enjoy reading most of your posts but sorry your “And if you made your money in the insurance or banking industries, we already know the answer to that!” struck a nerve!!!
By taboga
September 1, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
Now, is there anyone out here who can logically and legitimately refute my claim that Liberals are nothing but Communists under another name?
Post after post - right out of the Communist Manifesto.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Sorry Tim. Your grandparents probably did business in a time before greed and deceit was the minimum basic requirement. They were probably good people. I’m speaking from experience and current knowledge: my rates go up every year whether I file claims or not. So do yours. You are screwed if you change jobs and have a “pre-existing condition.” Our rates rise now even though the companies show huge profits. (Although they will take a hit on this hurricane, and pass that along to us too.) They pay their CEOs hugely disproportionate salaries and bonuses if they can keep payouts low. Claims are denied as a matter of policy. (i.e.,John Grisham’s Rainmaker) The Insurance industry spends mega-wads on lobbyists whose sole purpose it is to thwart consumer-protection laws, and to impose litigation caps and limitations on people who need it. Then they scream “frivilous lawsuits” to the rooftops, when actually those comprise only a minute percentage of claims. Not trying to say there aren’t honest folks, Tim, but I’ve worked in both Insurance AND Banking, and I’m telling you, NO ONE works harder to ensure that screwing people over is legal in their state than those folks do!
By MarkMyWords
September 1, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this
tab,
Yes, we can all refute your claims; and have done so.
You proved three weeks ago you did not even know what communism was, and here you are spouting knowledge of it again. You copy/pasted and claimed it as your own! Yet even though you plagerized, you still got your points shot down.
Whatcha say orafice boy? Or has that hand still not lodged itself far enough to find your brain?
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
blablah..right, I was saying that if we were going to have the kind of society where money was taken from the rich and given to the poor we might as well just have everyone make the same no matter what job you have. (it was sarcasm, although its apparent that it wasn’t obvious sarcasm). I don’t advocate any of it. The money I make is mine to do as I please and if I feel the urge to give to the poor I will (which I do) but it shouldn’t be the governments decision what I do with it. Between the bickering and all the ‘clarifying’, that got lost in there and somehow it was understood that I was supporting that kind of lifestyle.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this
Here’s one of your fellow Communists typical post from you freaks adored website:
Having some “looter” shoot at Bush tomorrow might be the only way from the neocons to get out of this mess without taking a severe political hit.
By taboga
September 1, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Wonders never cease. The freaks are now turning against President Clinton for supporting the efforts of the Government with the hurricane aid and assistance.
The pathetic losers are so frustrated and desperate - the dogs are biting their own legs now!
I should not be able to get this entertainment for free! I feel like I am ripping someone off!
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
kimberly:
you said: In America, anyone who favors taxation, and the appropriate use of the collected funds, is called a “socialist.�
that may be true. but what ticks off most of the non-collectivists in this country is the presumption that certain people know (or have even the slightest clue) as to what the apprpriate use of my tax dollar is.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
kimberly - I stand beside you on the insurance thing. I’m sure that Tims grandparents were honest and good people that would do anything to help but unfortunately they are far and few between. My pre-existing condition wouldn’t have been covered for 3 years…THREE years…if I had changed insurance companies. This condition was not something I chose to have, it’s been in remission for almost 6 years.. yet that’s not good enough, it still may come back some day.
Went to the “ladies” doctor and my insurance barely covered 50% of the visit even though I had met my deductable and it was a yearly routine visit. That doesn’t make sense to me!
By taboga
September 1, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
I know I shouldn’t be posting stuff from other sites - I do. But I just can’t help but expose pathetic Liberals at every turn:
This one is classic:
Bush you son of a b***, you black hating, gay bashing, poor-killing/torturing, gas gouging, dickless capitalist bastard!
HOW DARE YOU KILL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS?!! How DARE you turn Human Beings into ANIMALS?!! How DARE you even show your face on Television - get the F*** OFF the Airwaves and let REAL MEN do their JOBS, REAL HEROES who understand the meaning of HUMANITY.
How DARE you make excuses and half heartedly stand in a ROSE GARDEN making “manly, macho” tough guy faces spewing platitudes and cliches, while REAL Humans, BABIES, OLD, SICK PEOPLE DIE like FLIES without even delivering WATER to them?
Quit pretending like you are a MAN and even remotely competent, Quit SPINNING and LYING and taking NO Responsibility for YOUR Actions and NON ACTIONS.
You and your cohort Republican subHumans are the most retarded, evil cheap pieces of s** excuses for Homo Selectus that ever existed!
Any person with half a brain knows that our very civilization is held together by the rule of 12 meals. Civilization is 12 Meals THICK.
You DO know that, and THIS is intentional, and YOU are the culprit since YOU claim to be in CHARGE. You are MURDERING these people. ALL OF THEM.
I PRAY that Some day you will stand before GOD, a ruthless god as you’ve chosen and HE will let you feel ALL THE PAIN, Suffering, starvation, thirst that you have caused to hundreds of thousands of people that YOU personally are responsible for MURDERING.
Let’s see how HO-HUM you act as you stand naked before the All Powerful God, when all that SUFFERING you’ve caused comes rushing into your eyes, rakes your skin, swells your brain and tongue, when you bleed at every pore, s** yourself as you realise that you’re being handed over to the Devil, who will laugh in your face and guarantee you FEEL ALL the suffering you’ve caused with NO REDEMPTION, Ceaseless and for all eternity..
You will NOT be forgiven for this and the whole world will turn their backs on you in your lifetime, you will be considered a persona non grata and banished from the Human Race.
God has turned his face from you, so riddled with sin that you are an abomination, not worthy of sharing the Universe with so much as a snake or a cockroach who are far and away above YOU SPIRITUALLY.
Don’t you DARE come to New Orleans and stand on the backs of the Dead and shout your heroism to the stars, you are not invited and should be arrested on SIGHT and forced to bury all the dead for the rest of your days, naked, with a spoon for a shovel.
YOu don’t even have enough of a functional reasoning capacity or simple capability as the alleged most powerful man on EARTH - to MAKE SURE that these poor bastards get WATER - the STAFF OF LIFE, LIFE, something so foreign to you.
Your ego keeps you from accepting HELP from other countries, who aren’t interested in helping YOU, THEY are coming to help HUMAN BEINGS!
Jesus himself said, “However you treat the lowest among you is how you treat me.” YOU have starved, beaten, tortured, and insulted JESUS HIMSELF with your inability to ADMIT that YOU ARE INCOMPETENT, that YOU have surrounded yourself with EVIL impersonations of MEN and bent to their WILL, not that of God or even of your OWN WILL, as you HAVE NO WILL, you are nothing, a nobody, less than a tick.
You have nothing but a punctured, stale, sick, putrid, rotten little black heart for an ego and we hope that the poor and the ghosts of the dead follow you around for the rest of your life screaming their pain and anguish so loud that you can’t even hear yourself think, that every nerve you have is raw.
That the pain from their pure hearts passes over you in WAVES, like the waters in New Orleans - strangles your will to live, to eat, to make love, to hold someone dearly, until your will is broken beyond all repair and you lay yourself down and beg for God to forgive you until your lips crack, and your throat gurgles - only to hear your begging echo in the darkness as God moves away from you, leaving you to the Evil One who you have served so well all of your life.
You are CURSED. You are Banished from the Land of Man. Leave our White House and give yourself up, turn yourself in to the Hague and be tried for your crimes against all humanity.
Never let your shadow darken the doorways of a single decent human being again. Rot in the dark and pray for your soul and the souls of the poor suckers robbed of their very future by YOU or the Devil will shove hot coals up your a* til the end of time.
If you aren’t cursed yet, then you will be, you allowed a city that believes in Voo Doo to DIE Horribly, the same people that make Zombies of common men are now spirits intent on owning your spirit and your soul. But then again, you are already a Zombie, and apparently have no SOUL.
DEMAND that the makers of bottled water deliver more fresh water than is washing through the leevees to the nearest Air Force Bases - FLY over New Orleans and DROP endless bottles on that city, BOMB them with FOOD, MREs, Fresh clothing sealed in waterproof bags.
Send C5A Galaxies filled with troops to that beseiged city, make runways with local bulldozers and flood the city with troops carrying weapons, water, food and baby formula.
THEN ADMIT YOUR FAULT and RESIGN, Take Cheney and the rest of the cheap thugs you call friends with you and let someone like Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter lead our country back from the disgrace you’ve inudated us with for years since you stole our country.
Make HISTORY and LEAVE. QUIT. STOP pretending to be President. You’ll never be, and never were.
This is OUR COUNTRY. THese are OUR Brothers and Sisters. You are no longer welcome to the private, priviledged club called the Brotherhood of Man.
Those that have left the earthly bonds know what you have coming to you - psychic, karmic pain of such proportions that you will realise that you are surrounded by energy, not coal nor gas nor nukular, but the same energy that causes the wind to caress a cheek, or a seed to grow, can bring a man to his knees and make him beg himself to let himself LIVE - energy that is spiritual and not sold by the gallon, but EARNED by grace.
By kimberly
September 1, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
Blabla, that is why I write to my representatives regularly — to let them know what I think is appropriate. Although, the lack of a big fat “campaign donation” enclosed with my letters mostly ensures they’re ignored. {;->
By MarkMyWords
September 1, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this
Insurance is not a corrupt system, but a broken one.
You have no right having an item you cannot afford to replace - but everyone deserves “fairness” from the world it seems nowadays (give everyone an award for playing, not just the ones who excell!sarcasm). And then there are the MILLIONS of fraude cases that you and I have to pay for - but hey, lets blame the insurance companies, not the crooks!
FYI - Any system that gives, must take. And if the giving is more than the taking; guess what? Look at the oil issue if you need another example. Kind of like the eco-system as well; if it is not a complete cycle; something must equalize the pressures.
By buildingbridges
September 1, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this
hmmm, so in one sentence he’s cursing and yelling and damning someone and then in the next talking about a just God and quoting the bible. Now I know that the devil can quote the bible but when you’ve just been screaming and cursing it kind of voids the bible verse. My opinion of that writer was already made.
I’m not saying anything about what he says because they lost credibility with me after all the yelling and name calling.
By blablabla
September 1, 2005 05:25 PM | Link to this
kimberly:
Sorry Tim. Your grandparents probably did business in a time before greed and deceit was the minimum basic requirement.
kimberly you are a very sad person if you think everyone in banking and insurance are greedy and deceitful.
your comments lead me to believe that you think for every additional dollar that i earn, there’s one less for you or somebody else to have. capitalism is not a zero sum situation. by and large, the people who make substantial incomes aren’t doing it by screwing other people. their gain is not somebody else’s loss.
brian curtis:
if i didn’t have to pay for the aberrant behavior of others, i’d be a lot more willing to live and let live. but when idiots have more kids than they can afford, i pay for it. when people don’t bother to save for their retirement, i pay for it. when somebody blows all their money on lottery tickets and cigarettes and then can’t afford their health care, i pay for it. when some man wants to have sex with other men and will (generally speaking) live a shorter, less healthy life, i pay for it. when people choose to live in a city that’s below sea level, on the coast, and in a hurricane alley, i pay for the bailout when the hurricane comes through.
when people are willing and able to be truly responsible for themselves and their decisions, they can do whatever they want. but you want me to subsidize the stupidity of others and then you get ticked off that i might want to have people stop behaving in such a fashion. why on earth would you find it surprising that i would have a problem subsidizing inane behavior?
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 08:02 AM | Link to this
Kimberly,
So you worked in the insurance and banking industry. That would make you the one that has earned your money by screwing people over.
I myself have ALWAYS worked for someone else. I do not own, never have owned, or plan to own my own business. What wealth I have, although it isn’t much, I EARNED and I can honestly say I have never screwed anyone over to earn a buck.
BTW: My resume consist of the Military, State Government and a Carpenter.
Brain Curtis,
Name one time you were told who you could and couldn’t date. Name one time you were told you couldn’t pray or who you were to pray too. Name one time you were told you couldn’t speak to someone. (Unless you are a stalker and the court stopped you.) Name one time someone else controlled the remote control for your TV.
Why do you continue to believe the crap you are being spoon feed by these liberials.
By Guillermo
September 2, 2005 08:12 AM | Link to this
Good morning religious, moral-filled, conservatives.
blablabla and Bruce:
The money that you think you are giving the poor and people having kids is actually going into the pocket of somebody wealthy. Don’t be fooled by the crap you hear from radio, the news, some talking head. The whole point is to make money for somebody else. The poor are getting screwed in the process.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
I think the AJC is gonna trot-out every college professor in the nation before it’s over with. Let’s go out and get “expert” opinions on how things should be handled - from those who’ve spent their entire adult life escaping reality - hiding behind the fortresses of Academia. Sometimes I think the Twilight Zone is real.
So we get another professor blathering about what all went wrong in New Orleans — Who didn’t do what, who should have done this or that, these people didn’t have a “plan”, those people didn’t have a “plan”, so-and-so failed to do this and so-and-so forgot about this…
And according to the dimwit professor - now we need to have a “robust” national emergency response team! We’ve got to have training, training and more training at every level! We’ve got to plan and prepare, prepare and plan and train some more. All so that we can be “ready” for disasters such as these…
…Professor, we can have “emergency response teams” out the a$$ - and it’s not going to matter. We can “train” until the cows home and it’s not going to matter. We can “plan” and “prepare” all we want…but when a disaster hits like the one we are now experiencing in the Gulf Coast, all the variables have to be taken into consideration before you can move. And none of these variables can be known beforehand:
What is the extent of the damage? Where is the most damage and how many people are effected by it? Do we have any existing forms of communication? Once we find where the most pressing aid and assistance is needed - how do we get in there? How do we get out? Where is the nearest place to transport people that is safe? Do we have downed power lines, natural gas leaks, toxic waste, etc. - that will hamper our rescue efforts AND will be a factor in where we have to try and relocate people? How do we get food and water to the most people effected by all this quickest? Are there still roads that are open so as to reach the people? If roads are not accessible - can we get helos in there? Small boats? Can we get enough security personnel in there to try and protect the relief effort from the hordes of people who may be in a panic state? Will the rest of the levees hold up, or are they in danger of collapse?
I could go and on with all the real things that have to be considered in situations like these - and there is no way to be “prepared” for them beforehand.
And it just froths the hell out of me, to see this little air-head professors who don’t know their a$$ from a hole in the ground — running out critiquing things of which they haven’t the SLIGHTEST CLUE ABOUT!!!
And please allow me to go on record as saying: These folks down there are doing one helluva job! These are real people, doing real things, showing real courage and bravery - in the most extraordinarily difficult circumstances!
The “Professor” needs to take his whining a* back to his silly little classroom and let the MEN handle this situation!
By Ben
September 2, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
Very true Guillermo, very true. The same goes for charities, no better example than the low-lifes who handled charity money for 9-11.
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this
It was late when I read yesterday’s posts. Then I wished that I hadn’t. What a bunch of spoiled brats! All the verbal spitballs, rotten eggs, insults, name calling, fantasies, erroneous info and pure propaganda. Why don’t you kids take your dingbats and go home to Mama?
We’ve got real Americans fighting for us overseas. We’ve got thousands of Americans struggling in heartbroken chaos. All some of you worry about is your own little political ego. I love this country. Many of you are an insult to its greatness.
Today is getting much better with Taboga and Bruce. So cheer up all, even our dear depressed misguided liberals. You can change and be clear thinking, cheerful, lovable CONSERVATIVES.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
Right Tab,
I could go and on with all the real things that have to be considered in situations like these - and there is no way to be “prepared� for them beforehand.
Unfortunately you are stealing others words AGAIN. This was a report on NPR yesterday you heard on the way home from work at BK - I heard it too.
And of course you know as much as a professor. I mean, they just sit around all day and wipe kids noses, give them a B+ and accept their grant money.
But you… You have a real handle on reality and what it is to be a man. Your critique of a critic shows no hypocracy! But oh yeah, you have more knowledge than him bc you kept your mind fresh and free of schooling! (You must live in Madison Co with your 16 siblings that are encouraged to drop out in 6th grade to work the chicken farm down the street so that ma and pa can keep making babies. Brainwashed much?)
BTW - All those profound things you pointed out WERE in the tabletop exercise; and the situation that exists IS what they expected.
So, Idiot; what else you want to plagerize today?
By Renee
September 2, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
I am very disappointed with how the federal government is handling this. We have gotten aid to foreign countries faster than this. We helped the Tsunami victims within 3 days and we still have people dying in the streets, babies with no food and water, in the UNITED STATES. This makes no sense. Bush flies over in Air Force One. Yeah, thanks.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
Words,
I do have to give you some credit!
Normally the childish responses refer to me working at Macdonalds. At least you used enough creative imagination to change it to Burger King!
But as far as NPR — I left diapers as a toddler and have no urge to go back!
BTW - I have always wondered what it is like to be inferior and jealous. What is it like to be a pathetic little p**-ant like you? Is it possible for you to describe the hatred you have for people like me - simply because we are superior to you little turds of the world?
And no, I am not trying to get you to commit suicide - I am truly not. Just wondering what life must be like for someone like you. Nothing more.
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
MarkMyWords, Eaton, or whatever you are calling yourself these days,
Why don’t you make your phone calls? Oh, I forgot. You are keeping accounts at the pawnshop now. Try to stay busy. You are breaking the rules again. We don’t need the contamination.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this
I am very disappointed with how the federal government is handling this.
How you suggest they handle it - with majic?
We have gotten aid to foreign countries faster than this.
No we haven’t.
We helped the Tsunami victims within 3 days
No we didn’t.
and we still have people dying in the streets, babies with no food and water, in the UNITED STATES.
There’s alot more going on than just “babies without food and water.”
This makes no sense. Bush flies over in Air Force One. Yeah, thanks.
Of course it “makes no sense” - it’s a catastrophe of immense porportions FOR CRYING OUT F_G LOUD!
And what would you have President Bush do - stand on the levee and perform a Moses-like feat!!!
The stupidity that runs rampant out here is beyond any attempt at comprehension!
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 10:32 AM | Link to this
I’ve been away for two days and upon my return I am sickened by some of your obviously ignorant comments.
First off CB, who are you and why would you say something as biased as “behavior of those looting minorities in New Orleans…maybe our fear of minorities is well placed. Should I risk offending the minorities because I don’t trust them or should I risk being a victim of one?” Are you a idiot or just a fool that likes to believe that every minority is some ghetto, ignorant thug that lives to loot? You are too stupid to realize that every situation that the media portrays is not what it seems. These are tactics that they use to further divide the races and perpetuate these continued sterotypes. I can send you two seperate articles from two different newspapers that showed people of different races engaging in the same behavior, but the wording placed a whole different connotation on the actions. One article said that the young black boy was “looting”, the other article said that the little white boy and girl wade through water after “finding” some groceries. Same picture, same victims of Katrina, but different implications. This is just one example of the little subconcious word play that goes on and some of you are so willingly to believe the stereotypes that it just continues to fester your own inbreed feelings of racial superiority.
This is a devastating thing that has happened to these people and before its over, folks from all races will show there true colors, whether it be good or bad. Opportunistic people, thugs, criminals whatever you want to call them exist on both sides. Black folk don’t hold a monopoly on wrong doing and White people don’t hold the monopoly on so-called righteousness. Maybe you live in this perfect little world with no stress or stife, but I was brought up to work hard for what you want, it’s a choice, some choose the right road, some don’t, but one thing is for sure, we are not all the same.
Secondly, I can’t fathom why so many of you think that everything you have, you have because of something so great that you have done. Not so, someone helped you too, whether it was you mother that wipped your butt, your father that taught you how to build houses or your teachers that provided a good education to you, someone helped you. Unless you started out homeless with no parents but walked 15 miles to work and paid your own way through school with no support but your strong back and determination to become a success with no financial worries you don’t deserve the accolades that you shower yourself with. Everyone is not as blessed to have parents and family that care enough to socialize and financially support them in such a way that success is generational. Some families have been physically seperated, emotionally scarred and broken down to the point that they don’t even believe anything else is possible. They don’t believe that so much more is out there, than what they see in their everyday surroundings. Don’t misunderstand me, right is right and wrong is wrong, but sometimes if you have spent centuries being considered sub-human or inferior, naturally it may take longer than 30 years for certain things passed down to be eradicated. Personally I don’t believe in a welfare state but in helping those that help themselves, but sometimes the way our system is set up, when people really need help they don’t get it. Even though I believe this way, I’m not naive enough to think it’s that cut and dry, variables differ. Did you guys know that a young person with no parents to depend on can’t even apply for financial aid to attend college until they are 24? Otherwise they want your parents income, but what if you have no parents. You then have to go to court and get yourself declared an emancipated minor, nevermind the fact that you are 22. So things aren’t as easy as some of you may like to think. I went through so much to get my cousin in college, because where she lived (Israel)she was expected to be married with 4 kids by now, but that’s not what she wanted for her life, so I worked 2 jobs and so did she so that we could pay for college. I am also in college and plan to go to law school. I have never stole anything or cheated anyone. Don’t judge, you don’t have the right.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this
Tab,
A little fired up today? Seems your take on your serious is quite different from a normal person. I have no issues with your meaness, its purpose is rudimentary - so no, it does not effect me; besides enjoying your spinning. Cause you know all behaviour is learned, and I would love to see the tree this crab-apple fell from!
Dusty, What the heck do you know? Have yet to hear anything from you yokels worth my spit - this is pure entertainment for us. Rules? Try asserting yourself on your amore tab if you want to create a place to debate.
It was pretty remedial back when Norman, Eaton (which left after his last rant I tore him up on). Now, I play with the idiots - you two;)
Have fun - I am.
Diapers? Stupid comments that have no steam boys; want to try again? Try something really flaming! Maybe you will rise to grand idiot if you try hard enough. I am betting you can!
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this
Tab,
Simple question for you.
Do you think ANYTHING more could have been done to mitigate the aftermath?
By Jennifer
September 2, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this
Let’s just blame it on the media. That’s so easy. Yep, the liberal media, they must be putting their slant on it. I’m sorry Shaunti, I went to AJC.com (media) to read your opinion. I’d be eager to hear something more original than it’s the media’s fault.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 10:41 AM | Link to this
I’ve been away for two days and upon my return I am sickened by some of your obviously ignorant comments.
First off CB, who are you and why would you say something as biased as “behavior of those looting minorities in New Orleans…maybe our fear of minorities is well placed. Should I risk offending the minorities because I don’t trust them or should I risk being a victim of one?” Are you a idiot or just a fool that likes to believe that every minority is some ghetto, ignorant thug that lives to loot? You are too stupid to realize that every situation that the media portrays is not what it seems. These are tactics that they use to further divide the races and perpetuate these continued sterotypes. I can send you two seperate articles from two different newspapers that showed people of different races engaging in the same behavior, but the wording placed a whole different connotation on the actions. One article said that the young black boy was “looting”, the other article said that the little white boy and girl wade through water after “finding” some groceries. Same picture, same victims of Katrina, but different implications. This is just one example of the little subconcious word play that goes on and some of you are so willingly to believe the stereotypes that it just continues to fester your own inbreed feelings of racial superiority.
This is a devastating thing that has happened to these people and before its over, folks from all races will show there true colors, whether it be good or bad. Opportunistic people, thugs, criminals whatever you want to call them exist on both sides. Black folk don’t hold a monopoly on wrong doing and White people don’t hold the monopoly on so-called righteousness. Maybe you live in this perfect little world with no stress or stife, but I was brought up to work hard for what you want, it’s a choice, some choose the right road, some don’t, but one thing is for sure, we are not all the same.
Secondly, I can’t fathom why so many of you think that everything you have, you have because of something so great that you have done. Not so, someone helped you too, whether it was you mother that wipped your butt, your father that taught you how to build houses or your teachers that provided a good education to you, someone helped you. Unless you started out homeless with no parents but walked 15 miles to work and paid your own way through school with no support but your strong back and determination to become a success with no financial worries you don’t deserve the accolades that you shower yourself with. Everyone is not as blessed to have parents and family that care enough to socialize and financially support them in such a way that success is generational. Some families have been physically seperated, emotionally scarred and broken down to the point that they don’t even believe anything else is possible. They don’t believe that so much more is out there, than what they see in their everyday surroundings. Don’t misunderstand me, right is right and wrong is wrong, but sometimes if you have spent centuries being considered sub-human or inferior, naturally it may take longer than 30 years for certain things passed down to be eradicated. Personally I don’t believe in a welfare state but in helping those that help themselves, but sometimes the way our system is set up, when people really need help they don’t get it. Even though I believe this way, I’m not naive enough to think it’s that cut and dry, variables differ. Did you guys know that a young person with no parents to depend on can’t even apply for financial aid to attend college until they are 24? Otherwise they want your parents income, but what if you have no parents. You then have to go to court and get yourself declared an emancipated minor, nevermind the fact that you are 22. So things aren’t as easy as some of you may like to think. I went through so much to get my cousin in college, because where she lived (Israel)she was expected to be married with 4 kids by now, but that’s not what she wanted for her life, so I worked 2 jobs and so did she so that we could pay for college. I am also in college and plan to go to law school. I have never stole anything or cheated anyone. Don’t judge, you don’t have the right. Third, If any of you silly men think that most uninsured people don’t have healthcare for any other reason than that they can’t afford it, you really are living in a bubble. My little cousin is 24 and paying her way through college on a minimum wage salary. Once she pays contributes to her rent, utilities, food, tuition and books she can’t afford $300 for health/dental. So she takes vitamins and prays she doesn’t have a serious health crisis anytime soon. I am a state employee that didn’t get a raise in income, but got a raise in my healthcare premium, we are the working poor. We are not lazy, shiftless bums, we work everyday and can’t make ends meet, so think before you speak.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
Seems your take on your serious is quite different from a normal person.
Being the humble person that I am - never to proud to ask for help when needed - could someone please translate the above Gooberish for me? I know I have made this request several times in the last couple of days, and I don’t want to be an imposition on anyone, but if I am to at least try and understand an imbecile - what other choice do I have?
By kimberly
September 2, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this
Blablabla, You’re right. I must not know anything and am very sad. That being said, why don’t YOU explain the TRUTH IN LENDING LAW to all of us dummies here. You know, in plain, simpleton english. While you’re at it, explain balloon notes, and the fine print, and why it is we borrow money at one rate, we think, and end up paying another. And THEN, while you’re educating us dummies, why don’t you tell us how much net profit your organization made last year, and how that’s possible in today’s economy.
I will say NOTHING else here until you do. THANKS so much! Everybody: PAY ATTENTION! We’re about to learn why the banks aren’t really screwing us! {:->
By lozen
September 2, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this
What is amazing to me about N.O. is the total lack of leadership and the total absence of preparedness. What if this were a terrorist dirty bomb or a biological attack? It is now super clear that our government cannot handle catastrophe even when it’s predicted. What would happen to us if there were a terrorist act in this country? I guess we have the answer to that now! Why aren’t they dropping food, water and supplies from helicopters? This is the most pathetic thing I’ve ever seen. Oh, George is going back again today to reassess the damage that he flew over in Air Force One already. It probably didn’t look that bad from 2500 feet. Typical!
By Joker
September 2, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
Just another day in Paradise.
By Renee
September 2, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
It is a fact that the tsunami victims in three days. And of course there is more going on than that, but I CHOSE to focus on the babies. The people that cannot help themselves are the children (babies) and the elderly.
And as far as Bush, no I don’t expect magic but I expect more than this. And within the last hour he has criticized the federal aid himself (which he has gotten respect from me) so he knows it has been substandard. And yes, we have helped foreign countries quicker than this.
And stupidity! BECAUSE SOMEONE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR “LOGIC” THAT MAKES THEM STUPID???? I SURE HOPE YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO HELP OUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN WHO NEED OUR HELP NOW. You proclaim how great this country is, are you helping now?????????
By CB
September 2, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
Tracie of the long and arduous post,
Don’t feed me that crap…I”ve been to New Orleans and I live near downtown Atlanta and I’ve seen your so called noble minorities…
I’ve also been robbed in New Orleans by two black punks that picked me out because I’m white, and I have a white friend here that was shot in the butt by a group of ghetto thugs after he was car jacked, so forgive me if I’m not as accomodating toward these lowlifes.
I don’t judge you and your efforts are commendable and I didn’t say or imply that being black, or hispanic, or asian makes one a thug. But I know that low income minorities in LA, Atlanta, New Orleans, Detroit, New York, Trenton, Charlotte all feel entitled to exact some deluded sense of revenge on whitey because they are in a culture that not only encourages failure, but glorifies it.
My point is this…if I’m walking down the street in Atlanta and I approach a black man wearing a suit with a brief case, I won’t give him a second look. But I walk down the street and a punk with his pants down below his butt is strutting my way…then I’m gonna get nervous…this isn’t from ignorance but from personal experience.
I don’t defend the low life white people that were looting and you should stop defending blacks that see breaking the law as a cultural positive.
By CB
September 2, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
And by the way…I’ve donated $200.00 to the Red Cross…how much have you sent?
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
I’m sure I’m going to regret this.
I have to elaborate on something someone said about learned behavoirs.
I wonder..seriously..I wonder if your parents would be proud to hear their son or daughter verbally abuse people. And yes, calling people morons, idiots, embeciles…that verbal abuse. Call me whatever you want..it’s all water off my back I just feel sorry for your spouse if you treat them the same way when y’all disagree about something… but I will point out the fact that I have not once called anyone names, nor have I insulted (intentionally) anyones thoughts and opinions. Nothing but respect has come from me and I expect the same.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
Some of you people will never be happy. You don’t just DROP food and water from a hovering helicopter. You have to lower it, SAFELY. But when you have people shooting at you, and people crowding the drop site, it’s hard to do. You can’t drop a pallet of water on a structurally unsound rooftop either.
But there’s no winning, because if they did and someone was crushed by falling water, you’d probably b**tch about that too.
If you have a better plan for evacuating THOUSANDS of people and providing food, water and supplies, FEMA needs you NOW. Get in the car and go, QUICKLY.
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
MMW or ????,
Down, boy, down!
(And try to be a little more concise in your “entertainment”.)
By CB
September 2, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Ben is exactly right…FEMA isn’t made up of para-military people. Why in hell are those refugees shooting at the very people that are trying to help them?
By taboga
September 2, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
Lozen,
Do yourself a favor and go outside. If you look up and see blue - you’re in the right place.
Under all that blue - is an amazing and yet undiscovered reality by many.
New Orleans is a “catastrophe” as you stated. And no amount of “preparedness” could somehow, through some magical process, rescue 10’s of thousands of people from a major city which is 80% underwater - all in a few days time!
And no, not all of us are just now learning that we can’t be prepared to stave off the devastation and chaos that would surround future “terrorist attacks”. Many of us and most notably; The President of the United States, have tried to get this message out loud and clear! And is precisely the reason we need to go on the offensive to try the very best we can to prevent as many as possible.
We are not capable of magic Lozen. There are no magical solutions that you can put down on a piece of paper that will solve all problems.
We really do live under the blue - believe it or not!
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
I’ve been approached by a black man in a suit carrying a brief case and a cell phone, very nice looking man, clean cut, etc. asking me to take him and his sick pregnant wife to their car down the road because she needed to get to the hospital. I stated that if she was really sick they should call 911 and have an ambulance come get her (mind you this was at 10pm and I was alone getting gas near my hosue)and his response was that they just needed to get to their car. I refused, offered to call someone for help but would not give him a ride. He walked off. I came to find out later from police reports that he was going around doing this then later robbing (and lord knows what else) these kind people that offered him help.
On the flip side: My boyfriend and I were out at the Marietta square one evening, it wasn’t late, after dinner enjoying the brisk air and watching the trains as they passed by and we were approached by a white bum approached us and we both said we didn’t have any money (which I didn’t) and he followed us back to the car and yelled at us the whole time threatening to kill us. We were practically running by the time we got to the car.
Black or white, business suit or garbage bags, it doesn’t matter to me. Just don’t make eye contact. I guess that’s what we’ve come to.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Building,
The thing is that you cannot unravel illogical prose WITH logic - its a paradox. Once, I also posted, replied and looked to share information; but these Trolls are exactly that, Trolls. They never get repect on blogs/boards and never should. They mud up the conversation trying to be had - and that is their only intention.
So, I have resorted to this being my “ridicule the idiots” board bc it is made up of nothing (exagerated, there are a few that post here with volley-type conversation) but Trolls. And no, I have zero respect for Trolls.
I, and about 12 others that were on this blog, have migrated to another blog with prose, and still chat - nicely and logically (except when making fun of tab and such). BTW - the blog we use is a northern paper; amazing the difference in maturity up there! Kalamazoo is sounding good!
By taboga
September 2, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this
Ben,
Damn good points sir - damn good!
By CB
September 2, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this
buildingbridges,
Point well taken…but with apologies to Tracie I have to say that having a gun pointed at you tends to alter one’s objectivity..
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this
And no, not all of us are just now learning that we can’t be prepared to stave off the devastation and chaos that would surround future “terrorist attacks�. Many of us and most notably; The President of the United States, have tried to get this message out loud and clear! And is precisely the reason we need to go on the offensive to try the very best we can to prevent as many as possible.
TOTALLY agree!!! I think someone already said this but no matter how much training and preparing that is conducted…there is still no way to simulate the exact situations that might come up!
Police are trained hard and they go through many classes and learning to be prepared, but each criminal is going to respond different making each situation completely unique. You react the best way you know how from your training.
Bush has admitted that he doesn’t feel the response is up to par and is taking the measures to fix that. I also saw where he is getting the help of Clinton and Bush Sr. to help organize the raising of money to help, not to mention the billions of dollars he’s working to get approved to help. He’s not perfect, he’s a man like the rest of us. I can’t count the number of times I’ve wanted to go back and change a decision I made but now that it’s been made I have to live with it and make the best of it.
I support Bush, may not support ALL of his campaigns but I support him and I feel this disaster was WAY beyond any magnitude that was predicted.
As far as the levee’s and not being designed properly. Building codes change through the years as mistakes and more efficient ways are discovered. When those were built, they probably were up to code. As far as not being fixed when realized they weren’t adequate for a storm like this…when was the last time N.O. had storms like this hit and had the damage? I can’t say because I don’t know but I imagine it was pushed back to the back burner, but I’m just speculating. I don’t work for the corp of engineers.
By Joker
September 2, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this
But it is cool to be a gangsta
By taboga
September 2, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
I, and about 12 others that were on this blog, have migrated to another blog with prose, and still chat - nicely and logically (except when making fun of tab and such). BTW - the blog we use is a northern paper; amazing the difference in maturity up there! Kalamazoo is sounding good
Let me translate that with “prose”: Couldn’t hang!
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this
Ben- nope, everyone will not be happy, someone is going to complain about something. I’ve often wondered how many of the people complaining about the war would be complaining if nothing had been done and more attacks were made on US soil. Would the same people yelling “bring them home” be saying “do something!”? I don’t know. I obviously can’t speak for anyone that opposes the war, it’s just a thought I’ve had.
CB - yes it does change things drastically.
MMW - lol So true…and where would that blog be? A little maturity would be highly appreciated. I guess you wouldnt’ want to expose that on here though for others to follow. Although I don’t think its a northern vs. southern thing with that, there are some very respectable southerners as well as very nasty northerners, I guess it just depends on who you fall in with on which side you’ll see.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this
MarkYourOwnWords - If you’ve found your blogging oasis, why subject yourself to us Trolls. And FYI, K-Zoo is the buttcrack of Western Michigan.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
And FYI, K-Zoo is the buttcrack of Western Michigan.
Well, I can’t remember if it was Bruce or Dusty who said that WMW was the poster who used to go by: Eaton.
If it is Eaton - then going to the “butt-crack” is right up his alley!
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this
Ben,
You may catagorize it as MIs butcrack, but GA is the butcrack of the US - so still a step up. Ever been to K-zoo?
I am overtly biased to the mentality of the north - I know where they stand bc they do not still speak in code (good ole boy sydrome)
And I already explained why I post here as well, this is entertainment - how can it not be?
Tab, The simple question you have refrained from answering? Skip it, I already know what you have to say.
Good day all, I am giving everyone the day off and flying my family to M-Vinyard to chill this weekend. Have the plane all gassed up and pilot waiting.
Been fun laughing at you and with some of you.
Smiles everyone, Smiles!
By Ben
September 2, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
Yes I’ve been to K-Zoo, I lived there for two years while I was in college. It is most definitely a butt crack, but you probably like it because the saw Elvis at KFC.
By Joker
September 2, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this
Is flying on a private plane/jet to Matha’s Vineyad more elitist in the fuel-consumption arena than only driving up and down GA400 in an SUV just to use up two tanks of gas?
Now don’t all get jealous at once, now.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this
No worries though, I donated 5 of our semis and $7k of our slush money to the N.O. effort to eat up the raging guilt I have;)
Nice to be able to help and have fun.
(and no reason to be jelous, just work hard and you may earn something you can call your own one day too)
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this
Ben,
Whats the pizza joint that is named after a Fellowship of the Ring character? And whats one of the four freshmen dorms named?
If you spent 2 years there, these will be easy.
Nice to confirm you know your stuff.
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
You and about 12 others have migrated to another blog simply becasue you were not intelligent enough to hang with the big boys (and girls). We all know who is not here anymore and it seems this blog is better for it. A
“Ya’ll don’t come back soon now ya here!”
By Joker
September 2, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this
Sorry, have tons enough I call my own. Yes, hard-work.
that was a Taboga dig, seems you one-upped him with the flight plans. Wonder what he will come back with, a weekend rocket trip to the moon perhaps?
way too funny
seems I need to learn how to do that dripping sarcasm thing.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this
Well considering it more than 13 years ago 92-94, I don’t know the pizza joint. But I lived in Brittan/Hadley for a few months, but moved to knollwood apts, F-9, to get out of the them. Back in my day, we partied at house we called the Pink P Palace. Don’t remember much about it though.
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this
Best news today. MMW is “overtly biased to the mentality of the north”. Well, wipe my eyes with Spanish moss. I can’t think of any Southerner who would claim him. I’d rather have a bowl of grits myself.
By Joke
September 2, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this
Whats the pizza joint that is named after a Fellowship of the Ring character? And whats one of the four freshmen dorms named?
like the answers could not be obtained from the web. not that I will bother, I am not Ben.
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this
I just heard Purdue was suspending the gas sales tax at midnight tonight. It is supposed to drop prices by .15/gal. Anyone else hear this?
By Ben
September 2, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
Don’t need the Web.
By Joker
September 2, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
Ben
good deal, means you had a good time, since memory is hazy. In Kalamazoo of all places, imagine that. hard to imagine, but.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
Ben,
As i figured.
Both are HISTORIC places (“freshmen dorms” is a name of one - had to be tricky on that). It would be like living in Marietta and not knowing the big chicken!
So, no more lies please.
Joker, I like you. Now, I understand you may not find that a compliment, but still true.
What are YOUR thoughts on people slandering others that are exercising their free speach? How about pressures that get applied to discourage speaking out?
By taboga
September 2, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Has Mark David Champman (killer of John Lennon) gotten out of prison and I was not aware of it?
MarkMyWords strikes a remarkable resemblance to that fellow…
By Joker
September 2, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
Perdue’s gasoline tax suspension is “breaking news” on front page of ajc.om
By taboga
September 2, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Dusty,
MMW likes it up there because they “chat” with “prose”.
I just wonder what “font” they use for their “mauve” replies to their “chat-mates”…
By Ben
September 2, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
MarkMyWords - whatever you say. Consider them lies if you want to because proving myself to some a** clown is not at the top of my priorities.
And the fact that pizza joint is an historic place, further justifies calling K-Zoo the butt crack of W. Michigan.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
Joker,
I twisted it enough that a google would not help;) Tested it as well.
Dusty, Ohhh, please claim me southern boy!! Do you even have an idea of how much you GAs are ridiculed throughout, not just the U.S.; but world? The want to be “claimed” by the south is at a feverish pitch! Go kiss on your sis some more.
Bruce: What does “becasue” mean in Southern Idiot? Its not dyslexia; its GAs public school system - less your one of the many that could not even finish it at its remedial pace, dropped out to support your sister/mother?
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this
CB, it’s not crap and if you actuall read and could comprehend what I said then you would not try to twist my words. I’m not defending anyone, what I said is the truth, like it or not. You obviously don’t know any better so my post won’t change a mind already wrapped in preconceived notions. I quoted your post, word for word and I still think it was a generalization on your part, period. You can try to twist it and justify it anyway you want. Don’t be mad because I put it out there, deal with it.
Another thing, being that you are White, how in hell would you profess to know what a Black person thinks or feels, that is the same bs I was talking about in my “long and arduous” post. Stop thinking you know everything, you don’t even know when you are generalizing so how could you know that all Blacks in the inner city feel that way?! Because generalizations turn into a personal bias, that carries over to all aspects of how people interact, be it in the workplace or on the street. I am cautious of anyone that looks shady, Black, White, Asian or otherwise, but I would never get on here and say what you said, because fortunately I have the ability to not judge everyone by what some low-life did to me. I’m grown and can cope with it, without being scarred forever. It was a cheap shot and totally out of line. Like I said, Everyone is not the same.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
And the south has a big chicken!
What does that tell you by comparison? Or do you need help with that too?
tab,
You used both terms incorrectly, what great fun you guys are today!
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
Sorry, MMW, but I am already eating my grits and you can’t have any. Guess you haven’t read the statistics lately on who is going “south”. Well, honey, it “aint” a few ducks.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
There’s nothing you can help me with! And I know you are trying very hard to insult me or make me look stupid with your childish questions and observations — but I’m from the north, Michigan to be exact, so nice try. I don’t give a damn about the big chicken or the dirty a** historic pizza place.
By Joker
September 2, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
Waldo’s Campus Tavern 1408 Michigan Avenue.(or some address like that)
first hit. Wasn’t WALDO a LOTR character?
Slander? we talking (what’s her name, that Crawford Mom) or on this blog? Standard procedure on this blog, you must mean Sheehan.
LOL
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
Oh by the way CB, I’ve given plenty, volunteering at my job to raise money, clothing and feeding 5 family members that made it out and supplying a place for them to lay their head at night.
By Joker
September 2, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
And the second CIVIL WAR starts (again)
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
MMW,
Aren’t you wasting jet fuel? I thought you were off to Martha’s Vineyard…. Stick around long enough and you will see me misspell a few more words.
By sajeewa
September 2, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this
I am absolutely disgusted. After the tsunami our people, even the ones who lost everything, wanted to help the others who were suffering.
Not a single tourist caught in the tsunami was mugged. Now with all this happening in the U.S. we can easily see where the civilized part of the world’s population is.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this
Naw, It is Bilbos; which is why I referenced LOTR and not The Hobbit.
Was also going to reference “Castle;” written by a friend of mine that attended WMU - the first multi-player online game. Was going to use the campus station (wider), but found that too easy.
Slander: I mean in general, whats your thoughts on people protesting being insulted by others who do not agree in order to pressure them into refraining from free speach? How about when tv spokes persons do the same? Govt officials?
For example, I may not agree with a person beliefe that issue x should be spoken against; but where does the line exist, in your opinion, that turns my opinion into something that is stifling anothers free speech?
By Ben
September 2, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
We weren’t so uncivilized when the money and aid came in though were we? Take your disgust elsewhere.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
Ben,
MMW is trying to imitate me - that’s why he started with me. He’s just no good at it.
He posts without making a point (deliberately) as he knows I am going to rip him a new one. As some of us used to say back in the day: “He’s playing it off” - posting gibberish.
And then applauds himself for it. I wasn’t kidding - this guy has a strange resemblance to Mark Chapman.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
I should have known you were a freak when you referred to Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit and now online-gaming. Only nerds hung out at the campus station unless they were getting books or McDonalds.
Besides, who would eat at Bilbos when Little Caeser was giving 2-for-1 with free garlic bread and coke. No wonder you enjoy the dork convention in butt-crack k-zoo.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
Sajeewa, I’m almost inclined to agree with you, but a week with little or no food and water, and watching corpses float by, despiration has probaly set in. I’m just going to pray for those affected just like we did for the Tsunami victims.
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
less your one of the many that could not even finish it at its remedial pace, dropped out to support your sister/mother?
Don’t you mean “you are”? “Your” is a possessive adjective.
Game over. Thanks for playing.
By Ben
September 2, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
And if your friend attended Western, does that mean you were at the KCC.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this
And then applauds himself for it. I wasn’t kidding - this guy has a strange resemblance to Mark Chapman.
Actually, it sounds like he is doing a great job at imitating you, Taboga!
By Renee
September 2, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
I know desperation has set in but absolutely nothing excuses the looting, the raping etc.. These people have stolen TV’s, DVD players, GUNS, the important survival items. Not to mention there is no electricity to plug these items in at. And shooting at the people coming to help you. NO excuse. And unfortunately it looks bad for the black community.
By Tim
September 2, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
Bruce… we don’t agree very often… but awesome last post… hahahahahahaha
By Joker
September 2, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
I believe WALDO not a character in either the trilogy or The Hobbbit, my bad. “-o” got in the way.
and you know if it is not on the web, it does not exist. dripping chortling
Slander - happens all the time, few take the time to make it the legal issue it is. Courts decide. Politicians, commentators, etc. full of slanderous remarks and more often than not, get away with it. And just look at these blog positngs. Surprised we are not out doing ‘duels’.
and there was only one person who could feel they ran Eaton off. A different name of course than MMW. J/A
By Jack
September 2, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
Yeah. Other nations are just clamouring to help us with our disaster. Maybe we should look after ourselves FIRST.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
How about when tv spokes persons do the same?
What do transvestites on bicycles have to do with anything? Is that a part of the “prose” you were speaking of?
By Dustie
September 2, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
No,Joker, not a second Civil War. I could whip MMW with a wet noodle. Who needs the cannon at Ft. Sumter? But I don’t think MMW is wasting gas. Sounds like he is sniffing it. Those last two paragtaphs were kinda like last week’s word puzzle.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Argy,
Just stop. You’ve had your chance already and you failed miserably. I only have time to school one of you bugger-eaters at a time.
Go enjoy the weekend or something.
By MarkMyWords
September 2, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this
No.
I did not attend. I went to UofM for my Engineering degree; got a Cognitive Sci dregree at Duke and currently have a operation in the gulf cultivating live rock for aquariums (supplying atlantas new aquarium - which is the only reason I am in this crap town. And its too bad they are designing the salt all wrong, but hey: Its ga {look ma, that man left the dodads off his words again - and I will continue to, purposly}.
Gotta go now. All is locked up and I have a plane to catch.
Joker, will have to catch up on that question later.
Enjoy, little rednecks - tell sister/aunt I say “Howdy.” Come on up north and see what people that come from a non-comprimised geenpool look like sometime! Then again, stay down here and make our items while we lounge (hence the influx to the south - industrialites)
Sajeewa, Stick around for a bit, these folk will cause you to hate americans in about 5 min.
I also run a 3d modeling company in East Lansing and NY city that I operate remotely.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Renee, you are absolutely right, but I don’t think that is the majority of those victims. Those that are looting for TV’s, etc. were criminals before hand, but those that we see on TV are only a small precentage of the displaced. Know that and see it for what it is, but it is embarrasing that a few bad apples seem to spoil the bunch.
By Archie
September 2, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
Renee I agree with your 2:11 post. It has made me rethink my attitude about weapons. I was on kinder side but now a firearm will be my self-defense mechanism of choice.
By DiddleyDoo
September 2, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
It’s always the BLACK people!
By Frank
September 2, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
WE have one of the worst disasters in this country’s history and all y’all can talk about is Hobbbits, pizza joints and thr trivial like.
You disgust me
By Argy
September 2, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Just stop. You’ve had your chance already and you failed miserably. I only have time to school one of you bugger-eaters at a time.
That’s right, I remember our discussion on gay marriage a couple weeks ago. I failed miserably by debunking your claim that changing morals leads to societal decay. And your oh so insightful rebuttal? “Bottom line: no gay marriage. And no amount of blogging is going to change that.”
Clearly, I’m out of my league.
So what’s the discussion about this week? Are war protests discouraged? Well, clearly… this discussion forum is proof of it. As for the media, they discourage war protests when they agree with the current administration, and they support it when they dislike the current administration. Just like every other issue. What a stupid question.
and… Is it Dustie or Dusty?
By Renee
September 2, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
It’s not as small as you think. It’s big enough that companies were suspending their rescue efforts for fear of being shot, rival gangs are in the Dome naming their “turf”, women are being raped, a man shot his sister in the head over a bag of ice, drug users trying to break into the hospital for drugs. I mean there is enough going on without this madness. And it has hampered rescues. New Orleans had to take their police department from the search and rescue and put them on criminal patrol. There are more people armed in the streets (with AK47’s no less than there are police. Thus the need for troops. I think all of the troublemakers should be left in that sewer to continue to fend among themselves and the innocent brought to safety.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
I just want to let all of you know, that whenever WMW commits suicide - I take no responsibility for it.
That little boy is gone.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
Frank,
Thousands of people will die from AIDS complications today, and all you can do is whine about what people are talking about. You disgust me.
Bad things are constantly happening; if all we ever did was grieve over the loss of the innocent, everyone would be depressed, and the world a much worse place.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Renee - The only thing that will restore law is 10,000 troops and martial law
By Ben
September 2, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
Thanks Frank - We, well I know, I, couldn’t care less about what disgusts you. Just because you let it consume you while you do nothing about doesn’t mean the rest of have to join your pity party.
By preachingtothementallychallenged
September 2, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
At every turn, political leaders (dems and repubs)failed Katrina’s victims. Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency’s request. Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island. How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere â€â€? and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It’s a matter of power and politics. *RON FOURNIER, AP Political Writer *
By taboga
September 2, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
Archie,
Good points. When things get down to the nitty-gritty, it’s amazing at how all the feel-good talking gives way to the realities of life, isn’t it?
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
Sajeewa,
is that your real name or were you trying to say Sacajawea? Sacajawea was a Native-AMERICAN, a Shoshone, who assisted the Lewis & Clark Expedition. I don’t think Native-American tribes or reservations have ever experienced a tsunami.
If you really were in a place hit by the last tsunami, you should know that America was the most generous relief contributor in the world. How did you miss that your civilized part of this earth?
By Joker
September 2, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
Argy
Dusty is female.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
Argy - You’re an idiot. A pompous moron. A certifiable imbecile. Yes, people are dying of AIDS complications, and people are dying in flooded cities. But please continue to sit there on you fat, moronic, pompous, imbecilic a** and tell us again how you are oppressed, or wronged or not cuddled enough as a child. Please deride me more for not curing the world’s ills. OR you could pull your enpty head out of your tail and DO SOMETHING. I’m deploying to N.O. in less than 24 hours…see you there. Though somehow, I doubt you could tear yourself away from your weeping over everything else instead of pitching in
By Joker
September 2, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
I think we all need to get in our little cars and SUVs and head on down to New Orleans to help out.
Watcha think, Frank?
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Renee I agree with you. The riffraff needs to be stopped and the innocent helped.
On a different note and getting discussions back to things other than petty differences between ya’ll.
Disclaimer: This is in NO way an attempt to blame anyone or saying that this would have helped because it might not would have and there’s no way to know. It’s a general question that is honestly asked out of lack of knowledge of the New Orleans area.
I know coming north on I-16 from Savannah, they have it where the southbound lanes can be converted to northbound lanes for evacuation purposes with gaurd rails on southbound exits to cut off anyone trying to go south.
My question is this. When looking at the horrifying and heartbreaking pictures in New Orleans I see several pictures where people are stuck on roads trying to evacuate before the storm hits and the incoming roads to the city are completely empty. Why didn’t or why couldn’t they have opened up those roads for outgoing traffic? I know that the ‘would have’ & ‘could have’ statements are useless I’m just wondering about some reason as to why they didn’t, if it wasn’t physically possible or what. I’m sure they thought of it…just curious.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
It’s not as many as you think, out of the instances that you named, it only equals maybe 20 people, that’s 20 out of every hundred, but if you keep seeing and hearing the same reports on TV, you would be inclined to believe that it’s tens of thousands of lawless vagrants running the city. Like I always say, wrong is wrong but don’t base your hold argument on what you see on TV or read in the paper.
By Renee
September 2, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
I agree Frank. I think they could actually use more troops than that.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Ben - it’s not a pity party you idiot…I have lost nothing from this disaster. I feel for these people and AM DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT…unlike yourself. I could not possibly care less what you think of my opinion. It’s just mind over matter - I don’t mind, because you don’t matter. While I’m headed out though, would you like to donate your crayons and fingerpaints to take to the orphaned kids down there? I could stop by an pick them up on my way there.
By Dusty Dustie
September 2, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Argy,
If you want to steal my idetification you will have to use both names. Be sure to remember that when you go to the bank.
By joe
September 2, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this
There once was a troll called taboga, We all know he looks like a hogga. He thinks he’s so smart, While his brain does nothing but fart And he sits on his a* in a fogga.
By Renee
September 2, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Just wondering Tracie, what you are basing your findings on if its not the media. And if it is only the small percentage of the people, then they are causing a LARGE percentage of problems.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Joker - Absolutely. Jump in with me if you like
By taboga
September 2, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Thousands of people will die from AIDS complications today, and all you can do is whine about what people are talking about. You disgust me.
Argy,
I am going to break my own rule and give you a lesson in logic and common sense.
The difference between those who are in dire straits in New Orleans and those who are dying from aids:
The folks in New Orleans did not bring it upon themselves.
Playing Hide the sausage in the chocolate factory, is not the same as being f——d by Katrina…
By Joker
September 2, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
BuildingBridges - at some point later on, those were all lanes only OUT of New Orleans, or so I read.
I saw that too and went HUH?
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Joker - Absolutely. Jump in with me if you like
Renee - I agree. more than 10k and as many helicopters, boats, buses and trucks as we can get
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Frank Where I think your response to Argy was quite vile and disagreeable …
I just wanted to tell you to go to N.O. and take good care of the people in need and you be careful! I’m thinking of all the troops no matter where they are in the world fighting (whether it be literally fighting or not).
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
Dusty/Dustie, whoever the hell you are. Shut up woman! Women are so dumb you shouldn’t even be allowed to post here. Get in the kitchen and bring me a beer.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
I’m deploying to N.O. in less than 24 hours…see you there.
Good for you. Everybody should help with the world’s ills as they can, and I applaud you for it. My efforts go toward mitigating the disease and starvation in Africa.
But please continue to sit there on you fat, moronic, pompous, imbecilic a* and tell us again how you are oppressed, or wronged or not cuddled enough as a child.
First of all, I’m skinny as all hell. And I’m glad you read that part where I talked about how oppressed I am. I put it in white type so only brilliant folk such as yourself could read it.
By lilith
September 2, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Yeah, all those babies born with AIDS sure did bring it upon themselves you imbecile!
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
There goes the little boy posting under my name again.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
Thanks for your lesson in logic. It shows that you have a truly great understand of the worldwide AIDS crisis. But just for you, please substitute “malaria” for AIDS in my previous post. Then I think even you will see the correlation.
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
Just stumbled on this blog today, and just got caught up on the reading.
I think it is absurd that this disaster has been forecasted (they expected/roleplayed WORSE) to have the effect of leaving 20% or more stranded; but yet that was the ONE hole that Bush et al decided was not important enough to cover.
How is that anything BUT stupid or malicious; depending on agenda.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
Yeah, all those babies born with AIDS sure did bring it upon themselves you imbecile!
Of course they didn’t freak - their parents did!
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
That wasn’t me! Please Dusty don’t leave me. You the only friend I got. Yeah, baby!
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
Argy - you applaud me for it? Is there a new definition of “whining” in an updated version of Webster’s? You’ll have to get me a copy of that one.
Good job on helping Africa…they certianly need it
Building bridges…thanks for the well wishes. Sorry you found my post so vile. Just got my Irish up a bit
By Joker
September 2, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
Frank
maybe I should be like you and wait until the government ‘deploys’ me. Or are you accessing the web via satellite from downtown NO?
why on earth do you think people should be doing NOTHING but dwelling on NO now?
should everyone in the USA head down there? the professionals seem to be finally getting it together so now it is time for us amateurs?
By Ben
September 2, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Frank - what are you 12 years old. I’m rubber, your glue.. what a moron. I’m sure you’re doing a whole lot about it considering you can’t get into the city fool. Don’t worry about what I’m doing about it, but I will be in Mississippi and Alabama the last week of September probably longer doing my JOB.
But I’m glad to see you joined the ranks of the people that disgust you. You seem to have stuck around for a while considering all that is going on in the world!
By Renee
September 2, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Playing Hide the sausage in the chocolate factory, is not the same as being f��d by Katrina…
If you think that describes the majority of people on AIDS you are not as bright as you portray.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Joe,
Stop posting as Taboga. It’s not clever or interesting.
By Renee
September 2, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Oops, didn’t mean “on” AIDS, meant “with” AIDS.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
I base my statement on simple common sense and numbers. I like you wacth the news and listen to the radio but I don’t believe everything thing they say. After watching the same scenes repeatedly, reading various sources and talking to the relatives that I have from New Orleans who were in the thick of things, I know that there were much more people just trying to reach safety, find food, find shelter or transportation out of the state. There are people on both sides that are looting, it’s not just Blacks, so if any media source shows one side of things, yes I’m inclined to make an educated distinction and look at numbers. You sound as if my different point of view is upsetting to you? Everything is not always so negative, but I don’t see these same media outlets publicizing the giving that so many Americans are doing, Black and White. They can show us giving to foriegn countries but not to our own citizens and believe me we are digging deep into our pockets and our hearts.
By buildingbridges
September 2, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this
See Taboga - we agree on another thing. *The difference between those who are in dire straits in New Orleans and those who are dying from aids:
The folks in New Orleans did not bring it upon themselves.* Although not all aides cases are brought upon themselves.
Joker - ok so they did eventually put them all as out lanes? that’s good. probably saved a lot more lives that way.
By preaching...
September 2, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this
Ha, ha, ha, ha. Taboga called someone else a “freak”! Ha, ha, ha, ha. Will everybody on this blog cast a vote for Number 1 FREAK.
is a freaking fatuous freak. Taboga number 1 freak!
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
No, Frank, I do applaud you for it. I just didn’t like the Holier Than Thou tone of your original post.
Joker,
Please don’t criticize Frank for “waiting” to be deployed. He’s doing a good thing, whether or not his job is making him do it. After all, he is the one who signed up for the job in the first place.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Joker - I didn’t wait, friend. I volunteered (as did many others) as soon as it happened. I don’t work for the military, but rather federal law enforcement. I am at my office waiting on my three traveling partners to complete the task of gathering their personal gear so we can leave.
I don’t suppose you should dwell on N.O. Clearly you have better things to do. This nation rallied around 9-11, and the tsunami in Indonesia, and people like argy are focusing on other humanitarian needs, but heaven forbid you focus on this for more than a couple of days. Rather, let’s talk about anti-war protesting. That should keep us from being too depressed about it.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Argy,
I don’t give a damn about the “Worldwide AIDS crisis”.
And would you care to know why? Because until such time that someone can find the remedy for it - all the concern in the world won’t accomplish a single thing.
You can put as many ribbons wherever you like. You can hold all the rock concerts you wish. Bono can run around all over Africa until he’s accumulated enough time for citizenship in each and every country over there. And Tom Hanks could make sequel after sequel of Philadelphia…
…but until such time that a remedy is found — folks need to watch where they cure their meat! And that ain’t happening, is it?
So there’s nothing to worry about.
By Renee
September 2, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Not upset at all Tracie. But black people always want to give excuses when they are the culprits and never admit it was them. The numbers are fudged etc. I’m sure there are white people too, I even saw a hispanic. But the majority of the hoodlums acting ignorant are black. I don’t feel like my outlook is less educated than yours. I just see it for what it is. We can’t help ourselves as a people until we address and admit the problems.
And I have spoken with people direct from New Orleans that say it is worse than the media is portraying.
By lilith
September 2, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this
Joe, that was a great limerick! And so true. This blog has been taken over by one big brain fart who mistakenly thinks he’s so smart! I hope I can find the intelligent blog mentioned earlier. Suck my d—-, Taboga and supporters. What losers!
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Ben - good luck with your work
Argy - Please accept my apology. I should not have derided you. I just get aggravated sometimes with our colective national lack of attention span. Incidentally, do you go through an organization or is that your own endeavor? (refering to Africa)
By Bruce
September 2, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
I am heading out for the weekend I hope you all have a safe Labor Day and please remember those effected by this storm. See you all next week.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
So there’s Frank. He’s just moments away from leaving for New Orleans.
So, what does he decide to do? Well, rather than one of several thousand things someone might do - Frank decides that he will spend his time out on the AJC blog!
Why do so many people on blogs feel like they constantly have to pose or impersonate someone?
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
There are plenty of remedies for the AIDS crisis. Condom distribution and abstinance/faithfulness education have had a great impact on AIDS in several countries. And if by remedy, you meant vaccine or treatment, it’s not going to be “found” by “someone.” Extensive research is necessary for either of those, and progress is slowly being made.
All of the things above require money, so go take yourself to a U2 concert (and bring some heavy-duty earplugs for when they play their new stuff), or donate to your favorite charity or research organization. But you’re right, sitting and worrying doesn’t accomplish anything. That was basically my point in my first response to Frank.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Lilith,
How in the world can someone who posts under the name of Lilith - have a d!ck?
You freaks are something else…
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
Whats the opinion on here concerning rebuilding the place?
Seems pretty stupid to me, but maybe I am missing something…input?
By Joker
September 2, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
Yes, I applaud what Frank is doing as well. however I did not go to NYC on 9/11 and I did not go to Indonesia either.
so we DISGUST Mr Righteous.
so what
Okay, I can go to NO, and have Mr A-hole tell me I should not be there?
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Taboga - Pose or impersonate what or whom? Would you please explain that? While after reading many of your posts (and if I were to base it purely on that alone) it would seem that this would be a colossal waste of time…I have three more hours to wait before we can leave, so I figure, why not spend it with a sharp wit, such as yourself?
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
But you’re right, sitting and worrying doesn’t accomplish anything. That was basically my point in my first response to Frank
Argy - if that was indeed your point then I agree. Worrying alone will accomplish nothing when not coupled with action
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Argy,
Condoms are not “remedies” - they are part of the problem.
And if “abstinence” and “faithfulness” were being employed, we wouldn’t be having this discussion…
By Jack
September 2, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
I’ve been busy today. Quite a bit of vitrol in these posts. Not very constructive at all. Looters should be shot on sight. Washington is planning to spend BILLIONS on the relief effort so whinning about the past does no good. The govt is slow but they will respond.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Frank,
Well, I’m not certainly not pure of heart. I just left a research institute where my lab was looking for malaria vaccine targets. I probably wouldn’t do it for free. I’m heading off to graduate school in the fall, with the hope that I’ll eventually be able to head my own research team to take down the nasty bugs that afflict the impoverished.
I agree with your national attention span comment. It’s too bad that it takes a local disaster to get people to care about their fellow humans. I am frequently disgusted with myself for pinching my pennies rather than giving them to those who need them. So, with that comment, I’m going to donate some money now.
By Jack
September 2, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
When I grow up I want to be just like Frank.
By Tracie
September 2, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this
Renee, I’m 100% for personal responsibility. I practice and preach it to my 3 kids, other relatives and friends. If you knew me personally you would be able to attest that I’m a very no non-sense person, I don’t put up with bad behavior from my kids or any child that I am around and our community needs to go back to that way of thinking. However we can agree to disagree, you have your opinion and I have mine, you will trust your source and I will trust mine, neither one of us is there in the aftermath to make any concrete statements without a shadow of a doubt, but for the 3rd time I am not nor do I intend to make excuses for anyone doing wrong. I don’t believe in that, I’m the type of mother that would turn my own son in, so please don’t misunderstand my statements as making excuses for straight up wrong doing, never have and never will. Again like I said, I believe the word “majority” is my issue, because believe me sister, I know the issues in our community and I am doing my part locally to open some eyes to some of the foolishness being upheld.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
Joker seriously, do what you want, whatever that may be. If you think I am being self righteous, that’s fine too. I’m going because I think they need help and it is too heartbreaking for me to stand by when I can help. That’s my path, though not neccesarily yours. I doubt anyone is going or donating or whatever role they might take to impress you or anyone else. I simply think it is the right thing to do. While I do appreciate the well wishes and encouragement from Argy and buildingbridges, if they said nothing that would be ok
By Dusty
September 2, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
Joe aint no mo! He was just too “slow”. Tried to be an imposter! But didn’t make the roster! Po Joe! He aint no mo!
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
Hold up there tab, My cousin died from AIDS 2.5yrs ago from a transfusion. Condoms, Faithfulness, nor abstinence had nothing to do with it.
You want to amend your statements, and concur that this issue incorperates other (innocent) people besides gays?
Sounds like you are a member of the church that believes gays “generated” aids? If not, your argument has even less validity; they were just the unfortunate people to aquired it first.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
Argy - good for you! I hope you are successful in finding (or at the least being part of that solution) vaccines for malaria, AIDS, and other diseases that afflict so many.
Jack - Gee thanks, I was running low on sarcasm
By Jack
September 2, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
AIDS is an equal opportunity killer. To think otherwise is stupid.
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
nothing = anything
Sorry about the dbl-negative.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
Moose,
I would not care to “amend” anything. You see, I am on a blog. I am merely typing with other aliases. As such, I do not know the family history of every individual out here. So it is for that reason — that I speak in general terms.
If I were to say that the weather in San Diego is about as close to perfect as you can get, I am sure that there will be someone like you, who would tell me that it rained once while they were out there - so my statement is false…
By Jack
September 2, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this
Seems like you have a surplus of it Frank.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Jack - since you started talking it just seems to flow like a river, so I imagine we are all up to our ears in it
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this
Tab, And you are wrong; I would not respond to such a inane post about weather. You find them comparable?
By taboga
September 2, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
FatMoose,
It’s not your fault brother, when the Leftists hijacked the school system - they removed reasoning and logic from the minds of most they tutored.
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this
tab, So your saying that you belive: Playing Hide the sausage in the chocolate factory has something inate to do with aids?
By Crystal
September 2, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
Good to be home but love Arizona—Grand Canyon, Tucson, Kitt Peak, To’hono’odm, Barboqivari—love them all.
Reading back (a little rough this week), did you see Roger Soiset’s Aug 31 8:25 post? He gave us good information on the effects of anti-war protests. He’s a smart university professor. Teaches history. Taboga, I don’t think he follows the thundering herd of liberal professors.
Anyway, everybody, STAY SWEET and stay safe this holiday.
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
No-one here has an opinion of the sanity of rebuilding NewOrleans?
By Joker
September 2, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
Frank
good luck down there.
By Argy
September 2, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
I think it’s about time for Crystal to tell us to STAY SWEET!
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
Can someone tell me what this guy tabooga is trying to say: It’s not your fault brother, when the Leftists hijacked the school system - they removed reasoning and logic from the minds of most they tutored.
And are you able to aswer a question t?
By Argy
September 2, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
ah, crap, she beat me.
By blablabla
September 2, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
kimberly:
Blablabla, You’re right. I must not know anything and am very sad. That being said, why don’t YOU explain the TRUTH IN LENDING LAW to all of us dummies here. You know, in plain, simpleton english. While you’re at it, explain balloon notes, and the fine print, and why it is we borrow money at one rate, we think, and end up paying another. And THEN, while you’re educating us dummies, why don’t you tell us how much net profit your organization made last year, and how that’s possible in today’s economy.
my dear, what are you so fired up about? i said you are a sad individual IF you think everybody that works in banking or insurance is greedy and deceitful, or that it’s a prerequisite to work for a company in that field. that’s such a ridiculously broad overgeneralization, it’s laughable. i’m afraid you read something far more into my comments than what i actually said.
as for getting screwed on loans, don’t sign loan documents you don’t understand. i shouldn’t have to tell you that. be responsible. nobody screws you if you know what you’re signing, and why would you sign something you didn’t understand. i work in finance, so i’m aware of all the little tricks that lenders use to get added yield. but i don’t work for a bank, or any kind of lending institution. and yes, some lenders are not the type you’d want to deal with, but not all of them, and not all the people that work for them. the world isn’t trying to screw you, kimberly.
By taboga
September 2, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
No-one here has an opinion of the sanity of rebuilding NewOrleans?
Moose,
Do you think you could let us find New Orleans first and evaluate and assess the situation?
Or, I guess we could just all jump out here with no relevant information at hand and give yet another uninformed opinion…
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this
NM. No use trying too find intelligent life here.
Dumb a*******es on here like most blogs - typical.
If you all think you are original (tabooga), nope just stupid and boring.
By TusconNative
September 2, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
Crystal -
So how was my hometown?
LOL
By Frank
September 2, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
JOKER Thanks, bro…have a good weekend
By taboga
September 2, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this
Have a good weekend folks and remember what the greatest musical genius of all time said:
“Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.” -John Lennon
By Crown
September 2, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this
Tracie, if I were you I would not waste any more of my time trying to eradicate any prejudices that anyone on this forum conveys. No need to prove that you are a “normal� person to fit anyone’s standards. The ignorance that you will read on this site from some is one of the many reasons that southerners are looked on as rednecks and backward hicks.
98% of the people that I have seen in N.O. are black so the chances of the looters being black are…you guessed it! Pretty darned high. Common sense. I know it is hard to find around here. Never mind the fact that the looters came in all colors, they just decided to show the ones in N.O. more because perhaps there are so many people still there in need of assistance or the fact that N.O. pictures and video is considered more newsworthy. I probably just wasted about 2 minutes of my time even writing this because no one will bother to read it and take credence in what I am saying. Oh well, Tracie. You tried and I appreciate the efforts at least.
By Frank
September 2, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Crystal - visited Phoenix once for 6 weeks…got to see all the sights…it was great! Loved Sedona
Moose - Sanity? Well, I don’t know. I mean, it is still under water. I am sure much of it will be attempted, though what precautions would be in effect to prevent a second occurence, I can’t imagine. A lot of people have lost their homes, so I am sure they will at least want to rebuild. I just hope the insurance companies don’t try and hose too many people. On a purely property level, it is too bad many historic houses and such were likely ruined too. If they were try to rebuild, I would hope they would prepare the levees, etc to be able to withstand a Category 5 hurricane rather than the Category 3 they were reportedly prepared for..
By FatMoose
September 2, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this
Frank,
But the problem will be the event that does not break the levees, but flows over. It seems like there are lessons to be learned; including when to cut losses. The abobe event is what FEMA tried getting funding for, but was denied.
I understand your comment about insurance companies screwing people, but did you know that there are thousands of houses in that flood plain that have been rebuilt 5-10 times now - at some point (no matter the nicities) a company (or FEMA, which does happens) would provide a payoff and now own the land. When that happens, people tend to yell foul, but do not explain this has depleated the insurance cos banks - all because someone does not want to move from an inhospitable area. I find that quite selfish because that is where people get the notion that these companies screw people on a regular basis.
By Amazed (Independent Woman)
September 2, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this
Dissent is definitely being discouraged. Everyone who dares to dissent from this war is said to be unpatriotic or a lunatic. However, the disaster in the Gulf Coast has showed the world how unprepared we are for a national disaster. “We’re Not Prepared!� The Gulf is definitely an example and we did not pass the test. If you are not prepared to handle, a disaster in a contained area of the country, how will we deal with a multilateral disaster across this country?