AJC.com > Opinion > Woman to Woman > Archives > 2005 > August > 10 > Entry
Can Christian counseling change sexual preference?
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Diane Glass, a left-leaning columnist, writes the commentary this week and Shaunti Feldhahn, a right-leaning columnist, responds.
Commentary
Sexuality and shame have deep roots in Christian thought. It’s a shame that guilt makes for effective brain washing.
The vast majority of Christian counselors aren’t trained in accredited schools in the psychological or biological sciences. Basing sound psychological counseling on religious mythology is like Tom Cruise offering advice on post-partum depression.
There is no evidence in sanctioned scientific literature that cites homosexuality as a psychological disorder in need of treatment (or prayer), other than the biased views of Christian counseling centers around the country that use deceptive monikers for their organizations like “Love in Action”. And their claims of “curing” homosexuality don’t address the faulty premise that homosexuality is wrong, an intolerant view that assumes everyone’s damned to hell, except for straight conservatives.
The American Psychiatric Association long ago dismissed “conversion therapy” as unscientific hoo-ha. Because, in reality, the outcome of such counseling can do irreparable harm. Psychiatrist Jack Drescher agrees and says he’s personally treated patients in New York damaged by these so-called therapies. Any claims about the efficacy of these “conversion therapies” is pure marketing, not medical science, says Drescher. “These therapies are merely attempts to eliminate homosexuality — wherever it’s found.”
Homosexuality hasn’t been recognized as a mental disorder by the APA since 1973. The APA website attributes this sea change in 1973 to 35 years of scientific research that found “homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Earlier research to the contrary, the website explains, was ripe with prejudice: “Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.”
What Christian counseling fails to grasp is that homosexuals don’t make a decision about their sexual orientation anymore than a heterosexual wakes up one morning and decides to be straight. Ordained minister, Rev. Cliff Frasier, agrees: “Anyone who sets aside judgment long enough to become friends with a random sample of non-heterosexual persons will agree that sexual orientation is not a behavior that can be changed.”
Rebuttal
I respectfully ask all skeptics: do you really want to know the answer to this week’s question?
If you are truly willing to consider the data, you’ll find irrefutable evidence that sexual preference can change. However, if you’re unwilling — if you do not want that to be true — then you are doing what Diane accuses people of faith of doing: basing beliefs on myth rather than science. (That’s also the shortcoming of the psychologist Diane quotes, who is a gay activist and editor of the Journal of Gay and Lesbian Psychotherapy.) You are also doing no favors to the hundreds of thousands of people who feel same-sex attraction, but do not want to live that way.
Even lesbian activist Camille Paglia, in her book Vamps and Tramps, asks, “Is the gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay?….Helping gays to learn to function heterosexually, if they wish, is a perfectly worthy aim.”
Today, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) encourages therapists to steer conflicted individuals into acceptance of homosexual feelings. However, the APA also acknowledges that there is no evidence that homosexual feelings are primarily biological. Rather, they arise from a complex mix of biological and social factors, and strengthen when acted on. Robert Spitzer, the atheist Columbia University professor who led the 1973 charge to drop homosexuality as an APA disorder, recently concluded from a study of ex-gays, “Like most psychiatrists, I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that’s untrue — some people can and do change.”
Psychologist Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, president of the National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality — a purely secular professional association -– told me that most mental-health professionals find it unethical to not employ reparative therapy for those seeking it. But to get there, Dr. Nicolosi says, “We must stop telling those struggling with homosexuality that they’re stuck with it. Instead, we should tell them the truth: It doesn’t mean it will be easy. But if you want to change, like so many others have, you can.”
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Gary Harrison
August 15, 2005 07:22 AM | Link to this
While I can understand Diane’s views and some of the conservative Shaunti’s views also, there is one slight problem: homosexuality is NOT natural. When I see two males or two females of ANY species reproduce naturally, I may change my mind. As a former counselor I know the futility of trying to change the behavior a of person who likes what they are doing. Unfortunately, such behavior damns one to an ETERNAL Hell because GOD says that is their fate. You may not believe this and most assuredly do not like it. Keep watching this channel, for everyone will stand before God and answer for the deeds they did and receive just recompense. Jesus Christ is the ONLY answer.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 07:29 AM | Link to this
Nice rebuttal….. I wonder if the church can fix the redneck, racist inbreed bastards that persist on entering the gene pool polluting our planet with even more toothless, backwood, no count hooligans……but then who would go see the new Dukes of Hazzard ?
By Jd
August 15, 2005 07:36 AM | Link to this
FYI: Original Dukes rock, new Dukes blow chunks.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 07:42 AM | Link to this
Another topic to bring out the anti-religious crowd…
I can’t logically see where homosexuality would be a choice. But whether it’s born or chosen, what difference does that make - it’s still a sexual perversion either way.
I don’t think we should get bogged down trying to explain homosexuality, nor trying to prevent or cure it - it is what it is.
And I think Christians have a lot more important concerns to deal with besides homosexuality.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 07:48 AM | Link to this
FYI: Original Dukes rock, new Dukes blow chunks.
So I guess you are a redneck, racist, inbred, toothless, backwood bastard and no count hooligan — who went and watched the new Dukes of Hazzard…?
By David
August 15, 2005 07:51 AM | Link to this
Gary, this comment of yours drives me insane, “As a former counselor I know the futility of trying to change the behavior a of person who likes what they are doing.” Have you ever considered that some homosexual people DO want to change their behavior and can’t? One of my best friends is as involved in his church as he can possibly be and cannot shake his desire for the same sex. Thousands of dollars in Christian counseling and prayer after prayer have not changed anything. Nada. Nothing. The counselor was specifically trained to deal with gay Christians, but admitted to my friend that he’s never seen anyone change. Why is that? If you aren’t in their shoes I doubt you’ll ever be able to give a good answer.
This is where some Christians can agree though. You can be gay as long as you don’t act on it. This is heartbreaking and funny at the same time. I’ve heard my friend talk about suicide because of how his faith and his sexual desires can’t mix. Well-meaning (and smart) leaders at the church don’t get it. They try to help him, but end up making him feel more frustrated. The more time I hang out with my friend the more I am disgusted by Christianty.
Why do you fear gay people so much?
By Jd
August 15, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
taboga… You must not be that smart if someone dosen’t like something usually that mean they don’t support it….not a new concept…..is the light on now
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 08:16 AM | Link to this
Well, this is an interesting portrayal of “hidden assumptions,” I think.
If someone’s not happy with their hair or eye color, they can try to change it. With difficulty, you can even force a naturally left-handed child to write with their right hand.
The question is: Why would you want to?
Now, I understand why some natural-born homosexuals might not relish the life they face: endless discrimination, sneering insults from ignorant rednecks, actual violence and lynching. We’ve got a pretty bigoted society here when it comes to gays.
But isn’t trying to change your “offensive” nature more like capitulating to society’s bigotry than standing up to it? Isn’t it like light-skinned blacks trying to “pass” as white? Sure, it might help an individual survive in a viciously discriminatory society—but the underlying problem remains.
And what needs to be addressed is the hidden assumption in Shaunti’s writing: the notion that there is something autommatically “wrong” or “sick” about homosexuality that needs to be cured (or destroyed, if you love Jesus!) in the first place.
Anyone got any proof that homosexuality should be treated as a disease or disorder—that it’s inherently sick and wrong? I’d love to see it.
And don’t bother arguing that homosexual sex doesn’t lead to pregnancy; any man who’s ever gotten a b***** forfeits his right to criticize any sexual act on that count.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
The fact is there is no evidence that sexual preference changes, only that behavior can change. Most of the evidence cited is from self reporting sexual scores…not exactly objective measures. With enough motivation anyone can change their behavior for any length of time. Most of these people seeking to change are from small close knit communities, obviously religious, and under strong social pressure to be hetero. And if you look at some of the so-called successes…those claiming to have change you will notice that they aren’t the prettiest peach in the tree. It’s sad to say but I doubt if these people were getting much gay action anyway….
As a gay man, free from religious burdens and comfortably situated among accepting heterosexuals, I have no such motivation. Considering the success of my life alone and with my parnter, I am more motivated to stay gay. And who are these hundreds of thousands of people who feel gay and don’t want to?..sounds like some of the hetero population is leaking into the gay pool.
Oh by the way Tabooga…you sound hot…I bet you got a right purty mouth on you…what do you say I do some converting on you sweetheart.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this
OK, another topic that ones view is determined on their life changing experiences or in some cases not. Those of us who have accepted Jesus as lord and savior realize that he can and will do what ever we ask him to do, as long as it doesn’t interfer will the primary goal of the creator(that being all of human beings connecting to him on a spiritual level). So does Christian counseling work, absolutely, but only if you want it to. Will those who have not had this life changing experience believe it, no. They can’t, they haven’t taken the first step in the connection process with our creator, why would they believe in a advanced spiritual step.
By Lyrazel
August 15, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this
Hmmm, lets all blindfold our eyes and hold hands humming Kumbya before jumping off a cliff together seems to be the American way to deal with gays and Iraq these days.
My problem is that I know about 20 gays who are in their 60s through 80s and have lived 50+ years life as gay—but are ridiculed by religious who think they can change their lifestyle by accepting Jesus. These men and women have been in church/temple every holy day, maintain their faiths, sometimes have raised children (less than other generations) have worked in business and have retired—gay. Moreoften than not these zealots for change are family members who really just want to be recognized as above the gay parter when the pickings happens. When an elder gay person dies and leaves his inheritance to her partner (as is common for wives & husbands) frequently a rollicking family circus errupts where there was once tollerance, acceptance and understanding. Failing to address elderly gays in this argument for changing really shows how ludicrous such directives are, how ineffectual, as well as cruelly pointing out how narrow minded the advocates actually are. My guess is that few advocates of changing gays straight have ever brought their ranks into senior centers and retirement communities; are ye not brave enough, or do you advocates feel only the young need this mind game?
No matter how many times you shave a leopard it will still have spots.
By Archie
August 15, 2005 08:41 AM | Link to this
I do think homosexuality is something gays are born with and yet I do think they can change if they want to. Anyone can be brainwashed to do anything. I think some people are acting out and aren’t genuinely gay and I also think that counseling is a not pure science. Can christian counseling change sexual preference? Yes is my one-word answer but my expanded answer is that if you’re gay then you’re gay and eventually you will act on it. I wish all gays would come out and I wish they would not be discriminated against because you wouldn’t have this “down low syndrome”. In time I do think society will be more open-minded and accepting. Christian counseling doesn’t work that well for heterosexual relationships,just ask licensed counselors, so I don’t think it’s that good for homosexuals.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this
No Thanks Eiri - You pole vaulters and *backdoor salesman go ahead and enjoy yourselves without me.
You might want to check with Brian though - he’s not as closed-minded as I am.
By Augustine
August 15, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this
The National Institute of Mental Health states that over 50 percent of homosexually oriented (or acting) individuals who present themselves for treatment can be helped to become heterosexual. (Michael E. Cavanagh, Make Your Tomorrow Better, New York: Paulist Press, 1980, p. 266) Dr. Theodore Isaac Rubin states: “Homosexuality is a symptom of emotional disturbance. Emotional disturbance can be remedied and the homosexual can become heterosexual, but the psychotherapeutic process is long and quite often painful… This means in effect, changing the relating habits of a lifetimeâ€â€?no easy matter. Few homosexual people have the extraordinary motivation required to take on this great effortâ€â€?but some do and are successful.â€? (Dr. Theodore Isaac Rubin, The Winner’s Notebook, New York: Pocket Books, 1969, p. 53) Furthermore, a study by Robert L. Spitzer of Columbia University shows people can change from gay to straight. This study was attacked by gay rights activists noting that many of the 200 who participated were referred by religious groups that condemn homosexuality. Dr. Spitzer responded by saying his research “shows some people can change from gay to straight and we ought to acknowledge that.” (The Daily Breeze [Columbia University], “Study says some gays can become heterosexual” Wednesday 5/9/2001 pg A1). As mentioned above, Dr. Conrad Baars is particularly ignored by the American bishops, even though he has written extensively and authoritatively on the subject of homosexuality. Dr. Baars writes: “There is some evidence to indicate that the emotional climate of the home in which the male homosexual very frequently develops is one in which the mother is a stereotypical ‘feminist’ who is perhaps unconsciously hostile to men. She is the dominant personality, the head of the house, while the father is weak and passive, having surrendered his natural position as head of the family to the wife, out of fear of her aggressiveness, contempt and ridicule…. Such a mother is the key figure in the development of her son’s homosexuality because, in her hostility to men, she seeks securityâ€â€?and perhaps revengeâ€â€?by emasculating the men in her life.â€? (Dr. Conrad Baars and Jordan Aumann, The Unquiet Heart, pp. 136-137; see especially the chapter on “Homosexualityâ€?)
By Randy
August 15, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this
Talking about Homosexuality, I heard it explained best by Max Lucado. God is against any sexual act that is not between a man and is wife. He is against sex with children, animals, homosexuality etc, they violate nature and are not healthy physically nor of ones spirit. But again it all goes back to who are you listening to, the creator of this universe or evil. Who is your advisor????
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this
I’d like Jesus to turn me into a wealthy rock-star supermodel. If I believe hard enough, anything can happen!
So why should this wish (sorry, prayer) be granted, anyway?
By taboga
August 15, 2005 08:46 AM | Link to this
Archie,
What did you state?
By David
August 15, 2005 08:48 AM | Link to this
Randy, no offense friend… but that’s bunk. I think you do a disservice to the millions of Christians out there who pray for change in many different aspects of their life and see no change. Those are the kind of people who will give up their belief (wish more did give it up). It’s like that prosperity gospel where the teaching is how to get rich from God. Yeah, right. You and I both know that most of those people don’t get rich. Just like many people would go to a Christian counselor desperately wanting to change some part of their life. What happens when things don’t change? Not everyone seeking change is going to change. What Godly advice will you give them then?
Did Paul not want the “thorn” taken from him (whatever that was)?
By Randy
August 15, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this
Well first Brian you would have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior sincerely. If you did that you probably wouldn’t want to be a wealthy rock-star, instead you might want to help starving people in Africa or help the homeless in Atlanta. These would be wishes and prayers that wouldn’t be about YOU. But the creator is not who you are listening to.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this
I suppose that means we can’t masterbate either huh Randy…..?
By David
August 15, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this
Max Lucado. Urgh. When I was a Christian I read two of his books and couldn’t believe this man was so popular. He’s so watered-down. Perfect for the masses.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this
Augustine,
Thank you for proving my point.. you said the magic word “motivation”. The big questions is do these people lose all same-sex desire, or do they just repress it?
I went through my own self imposed conversion therapy in my early 20s…turned out I wasn’t having problems with being gay…I just didn’t like the gay subculture in the small town I was in. I tried to date a woman, ended up jerking her around and leaving her quite confused. Once I moved to the big city I was able to meet people (including my partner of 12 years) that weren’t so uni-dimensional.
By the way, most of these types of conversions don’t take into account that some people like both sexes, and just end up with the sex they like the most.
Seems to me that someone could change from straight to gay also…come on Tabooga…give it a try…I bet you look great in tight jeans sugar!
By Phil
August 15, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this
I’m sorry, but I never read “Woman to Woman” exactly because of the inane subjects that the ladies try to pass of as real news! All religion is folly and has killed more people than all the guns, knives, poisons, cars, cigarettes, alcohol and natural disasters combined.
No God? Know Peace!
By Jd
August 15, 2005 08:59 AM | Link to this
I mean you being the authority stated “God is against any sexual act that is not between a man and is wife”. please clarify
By Scalia
August 15, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this
It is also unnatural for a man to have intercourse with a woman during her monthly, but there are men that partake in that. It is unnatural, and a sin against your body, to masturbate. Many people participate in that.
Going along with what Augustine said, how come there are no conversions of heterosexuals to homosexuals? If it is so easy for homosexuals to change their orientations, why can’t it be just as easy for a heterosexual to become a homosexual?
On a funny note, would the conversion include making the heterosexual watch endless hours of the Golden Girls, Designing Women, Sex and the City, and the joys of pastel colors like lilac, salmon, and pumpkin?
By Ken
August 15, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this
People are who they are b/c God created them that way through the genes given to them, the education they received and the environments in which they grew up and currently live.
If a person is gay, then they are gay. Why do they need to change? The question is not about being gay, it is about whether or not you believe acting on that is right or wrong.
There are many religious people who do believe it is wrong. And that is not exclusive to the Christian church. Are not other religions much more intolerant when it comes to sexuality?
There are also many NON-religious people who believe it is wrong. I personnally know some them.
This is not a Christian/religious matter. I believe it is a matter of what SOCIETY sees as right or wrong. In fact, that is what matters to America anyway, right…? If any religious organization believes something, that does not mean that America believe something. The church disapproves of many things that society approves of.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this
David, as I stated before the prayers must go along the lines of not interfering with the primary objective. Our time on this earth is like the flicker light of a candle, it’s brief and how much money we have on this earth is really irrevelant in contest to what is important. What the creator is looking for is bonding with the people he has created, that’s really all that matters in the long run. What Jesus does do is gives his people whatever they pray for, provide it does not interfer with the primary objective. Jesus is not a genie in a lamp, his is the one who can make our life easy, happy and we can have abundance.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this
That’s funny Randy…I just talked to God last night and he told me that I hadn’t been intimate enough with my partner lately which made him (my partner, not God) start to feel inadequate. He told me that sexual intimacy was a good way to maintain a close bond with someone and that I should get busy. He also told me that some idiots confuse the crime of animal cruelty with a sex act…
I’m still waiting Tabooga…bottom or top?
By David
August 15, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this
Oooh, I just thought of something. How many Christians reading this who truly believe a gay person can become straight would want their daughter to marry a “former” gay man (who never once acted on his desires)? When push comes to shove I doubt many Christians would be comfy with this. Oh, but they have CHANGED!
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
David when you were a Christian. I have been a Christian for many years and you were never a Christian in spirit, maybe in name. Being a true Christian is a life changing experience, there is no going back. Your heart is changed, your eternal destiny is changed, a complete and total change. Why would someone want to go back to being a non-Christian, when all you have to look forward to is a death bed and separation from the creator???
By Antyler
August 15, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this
Sexual orientation (preference) is, at least to a certain degree determined by whether a man is aroused by a member of the opposite sex or by a member of the same sex. You don’t get to tell your brain what you find arousing: your brain tells you!
There are two sides to homosexuality: the basic orientation of being physically, emotionally, and psychologically attracted to members of the same sex, and then the act of engaging in sexual relations with members of the same sex. Both are quite separate - a person can do one without the other. The religious reparative therapies only deal with the person’s acts or “behavior” and will fail 100% of the time because they fail to understand the attraction part of the equation. Sexual orientation describes the object of a person’s erotic desires, fantasies and feelings, which is usually another person. Most people distinguish between sexual orientation and sexual behaviour. In this view, abstaining from sexual activity does not have an effect on a person’s sexual orientation. Thus we may speak of a heterosexual virgin or a homosexual celibate.
To pose the question of what causes homosexuality is actually a judgment about homosexuals. If you ask for the causes of homosexuality you assume that this is a disorder and needs to be explained. It is better to find out what influences and processes determine sexual preferences, whether this is homosexuality, heterosexuality or something else.
I find the whole christian counseling to heal homosexuality concept to be offensive as well as a huge fraud.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this
JD, God is against any sexual act that is not between a man and his wife. That is pretty simple. All other sexual activity is foreign to the creator, and is of evil.
By Sean Browning
August 15, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this
If a person chooses to be gay, does it undermine their fundamental right to choose what to do in the privacy of their own home? If it is an abomination to your Lord, do not be homosexual. Until we live in a theocracy, individuals are still allowed choice, “born that way” or not.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this
Eiri, You are not talking to the creator.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this
I suppose that means we can’t masterbate either huh Randy…..? I mean you being the authority stated “God is against any sexual act that is not between a man and is wife�. please clarify
By David
August 15, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this
Jesus is the one who can make life easy and happy? That’s news to me. I would think more Christians would say contentment than easy/happy. Actually, I know of no bible verses that say life will be easy if you believe. Anyway, you still have to admit that millions upon millions of people have unanswered prayer even if they are praying right in line with the things Jesus “wants”.
BTW, want to see some facinating websites, then do a search for “gay christians” and read some message boards of pracicing gays who are also Christians. Might open some eyes.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this
I don’t have to tell you people that homosexuality is evil, all of you know this down deep. Anyone who denies this is in denial about what is good and evil. Give me a break!!!!!
By Dr. Peter Goodbottom
August 15, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
Hello All,
My name is Dr. Peter Goodbottom and I am the founder of “Loving Lavender Therapies”. Shaunti is exactly right…sexual preference can change…well let me correct that…sexual preference can be expanded. Let me explain.
Over my years as a gay man I have noticed many of my male heterosexual friends and associates making the comment: “You know Peter, I envy your lifestyle…I mean, if it weren’t for the gay sex, I would be gay”. Apparently, many such straight men can’t form successful relationships with the opposite sex even though they are sexually attracted to them. I guess that’s where the expression “You can’t live with ‘em, can’t live witout ‘em” comes from. So in 1998 I started “Loving Lavender Therapies”…we are located on the corner of Castro and 17th street here in the fabulous city of San Francisco. Our techniques are similar to the childlike methods of the ex-gay movement. When asked how to form a sexual attraction to the same sex we suggest that the patient put himself in a role. That he convince himself that he doesn’t like a soft squishy woman with long flowing hair, but instead likes a hot muscly guy with a six pack, square jaw and piercing blue eyes. With enough motivation the straigt man can convince himself to act as a gay man. Bob, uh…I mean Robert is a shining example of one of my successes. He and his partner Craig, have been together three years now. To be honest, I don’t really think they have much in the way of sexual relations, but they do have a wonderful loft down in the Market district, lots of stainless steel appliances, and many friends to do fun things with.
Are you a straight guy dissatisfied with the opposite sex relationships you have experienced? Then contact me immediately. Especially you Tabooga…I think we can sort this out for you.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this
Randy,
Go peddle your piety to someone who cares. I’m closer to God than you ever will be…in fact my cat is closer to God than you…
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this
JD, I didn’t say GOD wouldn’t forgive you. Any sexual act other than between a man and his wife is a sin, Jesus died on the cross so as to take all our sins on him. All we have to do is get in tune with the creator and he will forgive us, he is a great and forgiving creator. I’m far from perfect also, but I’m in tune with Jesus.
By TomCruiseLookAlike
August 15, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this
Now I take great offense that my lookalike was mentioned here. Diane, you do not know the history of Psychology, but I DO, you are Glib, Glib I say. There is also no such thing as a chemical imbalance in the human body, and I should know since Hubbard said so. So don’t go trying to blame the inclination-to-be-gay on some kind of treatable chemical imbalance, implying something wrong with it. You are often born that way, so others need to get used to it.
By David
August 15, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this
A bit off topic, but for Randy… you don’t really know how spiritual I was as a Christian, but if you had met me five years ago I feel confident in saying you’d probably have pegged me for a True Believer (TM). We might have gone to a very poor Eastern European country and shown the Jesus film to poor villagers for three summers in a row. We might have held hands and gone down to poor villages in Central America to provide medicine and FORCED gospel sharing to savagely poor villagers. We might have… but we didn’t. I did. I did this just for the kick of it not because I truly believe in Jesus (sarcasm).
Randy, just search around online for Christian websites (christianforums.com is a good one) and you’ll read story after story of people who believed exactly as you did and then one day realized it was a crock. This is rather simplistic, but did you ever believe in Santa when you were a kid? Today you don’t, but did that make your belief in Santa untrue back then? Of course not. I truly get a kick out of a Christian telling me that I wasn’t a real Christian. But I have something you don’t. I did believe like you and I don’t any longer. I can compare the two sides. And this subject of homosexuality change is one of a myriad of problems Christians face. You aren’t living in reality. And no, I harbor no anger towards a God out there… just couldn’t face the logical problems that crop up on a daily basis in Christianity.
By George
August 15, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this
For all of the documentation that Shaunti likes to reference that shows an ability to change sexual behavior, the documentation shows exactly that: a change in behavior and not orientation. Being gay is defined by what triggers your libido, not by your activity. In other words you can have gay virgins as well as straight virgins. You can have gay men having sex only with women, but what is going on in the gay man’s mind are sexual thoughts of another man. Those who once thought themselves to be gay and have actually nurtured a desire for the opposite sex are, by definition, bisexual. Even they will say that their thoughts for the same gender had not gone away.
Why is it that certain Christians and Muslims say that being gay is a choice? Is being straight a choice for them? If so, then they are bisexual by definition. Only bisexuals get to choose their orientation.
No gay person grows up wanting to be gay. Most go through their on version of conversion therapy, but to no avail. I seriously think that those who are truly successful in changing their actual orientation (and are therefore bisexual) or at minimum behavior, often credit their higher power and become leaders in their respective religious organizations. It can be the very reason why preachers are so obsessed with what two adults do in the privacy of their own homes, behavior that results in no more people in this obscenely overpopulated planet. To say God wants all sexual activity to result in the creation of an another child is an abomination. The followers of these leaders are of two general classes, heterosexuals who see that being straight is a no-brainer, and bisexuals or gay people able to engage in straight behavior who resent gay people who either cannot or will not engage in straight behavior.
The Bible says that a lot of what we do without thinking in terms of morality are sinful and/or an abomination to God. Men sleep in the same bed as their menstruating wives all the time. Obese Christians eating barbeque pork or shrimp. Heck, lobsters are seen as a gourmet delicacy in our Christian society. What about all the clothing with mixed fibers? I can go on and on; it’s all in the Bible.
Sexuality is neither good nor bad. It just IS. The so-called religious need to move on to their real problems of society such as violence and poverty, but I suppose they don’t because it would require real thought and effort.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this
Eiri, I’m not peddling anything, I’m just stating facts as I know them to be. I have had a life changing experience, I have thought this through completely and I’m not only a believer but a KNOWER.
By David
August 15, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
Hi Dr. Goodbottom. You provide a fine service. When the day comes that I tire of my wife I’ll be sure to look up your services so that I can stop living with this constant nagging. Maybe another guy will understand my love of sports better?
By Jd
August 15, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
I think your mistaken. God is against anything that will interfere with our relationship with him, be it drugs, sex or any other idol we ourselves build, our own personal golden calf. No sin is anymore vile than the next to God. Everyone has there own vice and for that sin Jesus died on the Cross. Reconsiliation will never occur while we are here on Earth it is throught faith and a personal connection with our creator that deliverance will be afforded to us.
By Ben
August 15, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this
This is pretty interesting. Get counseled on homosexuality by a Catholic priest who is probably homosexual himself. Fight the urge until you just can’t take it anymore and reel in the young alter boys.
Church is a joke led by false prohpets. Cut out the middle man and practice your religion like it’s supposed to be practiced - A “personal” relationship with you and your god.
By Whiley
August 15, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
I don’t know if homosexuality is “evil”, or whatever that means. It just may be a little gross to some people. But then again, ugly people having sex is gross too & SHOULD be a “sin”.
By Kay
August 15, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this
Yes, this means that God disapproves of masturbation as well. It is not natural, as homosexuality, fornication and adultery are all practices that God disapproves of. If you are a Christian, then the Bible is your basis and your standard. Homosexuals who once were must repress feelings for the same sex just as single or even married heterosexuals must repress feelings for the same sex or someone not their marriage mate. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 mentions the above mentioned practices and others that God condemns. Verse 11 clearly states that some of you practiced (past tense) these things, meaning one can change and bring his life in harmony with God’s will if that is his wish. A homosexual is no from a fornicator in God’s eyes. The Christian belief is that even one who has sex relations outside of a marriage or who chronically masturbates must change these practices in order to be pleasing to God.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
David, I never really believed in Santa, even as a kid I knew down deep he didn’t exist. Big difference in Jesus, me being a college educated individual(almost a MBA) I also questioned Christianity a few years back, but Jesus answered all my concerns and being a true Christian in my heart I am even closer to him now than ever before. What part has caused you to lose your faith.
By Kay
August 15, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
Heterosexuals must repress feelings for the ‘opposite’ sex
By Jd
August 15, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this
No where in the bible does it teach that masterbation is a sin.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
If someone wants to risk their mental health and go to one of these counselors… have at it… I hope you get what you are looking for… but I am quite happy with the person GOD made me… God knew exactly what He/She was doing when He/She made me… so I think I will just stay away from those ‘counselors’
Scalia… I love ‘The Golden Girls’… ‘The Golden Palace’ is now on reruns for a limited time… not as funny but still worth watching to see 3 of the girls
By Questions
August 15, 2005 09:40 AM | Link to this
Are these religious counselors pork-eating Sunday Worshippers?
I realize energy-policy not being discussed down at the anti-abortion meetings, (I presume that is why Heather was absent last week), but this topic sure to bring Heather back with us. Heather, where art thou?
By Jd
August 15, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Ben and Tim your on point. Statements such as yours Makes me proud to be a believer.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Hearing all these comments, it reminds me of a line from a movie a few years back. The priest is going to try to outwit Satan, the other priest says don’t try, Satan has had 6,000 years of experience and knows exactly what to say to each individual to get them to not accept Jesus as lord and savior. Some people he tells them that they have plenty of time and don’t need to do it now, some he tells them that they are to well educated(pride)to believe in such things etc. Evil will tell you whatever he can to get you to not be in tune with the creator. Go with your heart.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this
I’m just stating facts as I know them to be
Classic…is there any statement that sums up the arrogance of the Christian fundamentalist better than this?
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
JD, OK I’m going with the bible. That’s why we have it as a reference guide.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
Show of hands.
How many people out here would embrace: Incest, Polygamy, Pedophilia and Nudism…?
As a part of your open-mindedness, tolerance and compassion - why aren’t you embracing and welcoming those groups into mainstream society?
Your “open-mindedness” stops with Gays…?
By Augustine
August 15, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
a study conducted in 1978 showed that 69% of American psychiatrists still regarded homosexuality as a pathological adaptation. A much more recent survey suggests that the majority of psychiatrists around the world continue to view same-sex behavior as signaling mental illness. Psychiatric research indicates that people with same-sex sexual behavior are at greater risk for psychiatric disorders. (American Medical Association (AMA) Archive, General Psychiatry. 2001; 58:85-91). Also, gay, lesbian, bisexual, or not sure youth were 3.41 times more likely to report a suicide attempt than heterosexuals (American Medical Association (AMA) Archive, Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. 1999; 153:487-493).Today there is a consensus on this among psychiatrists. It is generally agreed that homosexuality is one aspect of a personality problem. The most important causative factors are psychogenic. There have been many investigations into other causes, and many efforts to prove that the causative agent in homosexuality is genetic, or congenital, or biological, or chemical, or organic. Every one of these efforts has clearly failed…. Furthermore, a homosexual man has a definite identity. He is not a man who wants to be a woman. He is a man who prefers sex with men… There are no born homosexuals. It is an emotional disposition that is learned…. By destiny one is born a biological male or female, but to rightly fulfill one’s biological role requires learning… Homosexuality always involves arrested development, and probably always involves emotional disorder. The two basic factors in a child’s development into a homosexual appear to be his failure to identify securely with the parent of the same sex, and his failure to have a happy relationship with the parent of the opposite sex. Though not every child who lacks these basic securities becomes homosexual, every homosexual manifests this lack.� Mental illness can be cured.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
Ben, The church is lead by false prophets?? The bible says that there will be some false prophets in the last days, but all preachers are not all false prophets. Being a true Christian I can spot a false prophet within 5 minutes, I would only go to a church where the preacher is right with God, and realize he to is only human and has faults.
By Ben
August 15, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this
Jd - I’m a believer too. I believe that the people that pimp religion are the problem - not people who believe. For a man to believe he can interpret the Bible or Religion to others is ridiculous, and a person that misinterprets the Word is even more ridiculous.
If all of you Bible thumping looneys believe so much, why is so hard for you to believe that God created all men and in doing so he threw in a few homosexuals. But I guess you don’t want to hear that because after all, doesn’t the Holy Book say he created man in his likeness? So if you were to interpret that correctly, one would believe that He had a little sugar in his tank and masterbated every now and then. Or it would lead some to believe that He made a mistake, but we won’t go so far to say your Almighty was imperfect.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 09:50 AM | Link to this
Why is this an issue and why am I wasting my time here? Because these helpful Christians aren’t just interested in easing the stress of being gay for some people. They want to use these dubious conversions in their never ceasing crusade to deny gays basic rights and dignity.
“See…he changed…so can you…you don’t have to be gay…so it’s ok if you get beat up, it’s ok if you get fired, you don’t need to marry someone of the same sex…we can teach you how to marry the opposite sex”.
These people are evil and Shaunti is equally vile for supporting them.
By Grace
August 15, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this
As a Christian, I was taught that no sin is greater than the other. Gossip, backbiting, adultery, fornicating, jealousy and covetousness are all sins. We need to stop looking at the specks in our brothers eye and start trying to rid ourselves of the plank that is in our own.
When we create an environment in which homesexuals feel bashed, we further create a barrier between them and the Lord. I believe the bible states “Blessed is he that does not stand in the way of the sinner”. If you meet a person who is a sinner, and we all sin and fall short of His glory, the best we can do is remind everyone that God loves him no matter what he does. Invite them to church let them hear God’s word and let God’s love and mercy convict them…not you.
By Ben
August 15, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this
Randy - Do you extend that same courtesy to homosexual Christians?
By E. Lewis
August 15, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
I think that that homosexuals choose to be gay about as often as heterosexual choose to be straight. Sexuality is such a complicated issue that there isn’t one single determing factor and for Christian counselors, many of whom have little if any formal training/schooling in human sexuality or psychology/psychiatry, to pretend it is so can ultimately cause more harm to those they are purporting to help.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
I’ve been in the church for the majority of my life. I have no qualms with god or the precieved sins of another man. And I stand by my statement any idol we create that interfers with our relationship with god will inevitably get us in hot water. But thats what deliverance and reconsiliation is all about. Salvation is not a place, the man that died with Jesus was a convicted killer and yet he died in peace. Good day folks.
By HCS
August 15, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
I think the joke is on the ridiculous, overly conservative Bible-thumpers. You all sit there and preach love, tolerance, brotherhood, acceptance, etc. God has put people of all types on this planet and you are failing the test of Christianity: you have no tolerance, no love, no feeling of brotherhood, no acceptance for those seemingly different from you. But they are people, human beings with feelings that have as much to offer as you; yet, you shut them away from life and love because of your own fears. You think those different from you (i.e. homosexuals) are going to hell? You have bought your one-way ticket by being the ultimate hypocrite; you fail to practice what you preach. Talk about taking the love of the Lord in vain!
By Archie
August 15, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
Nudist colonies exist in different parts of the country and they are welcomed. People can’t walk around nude in public but they can practice being a nudist. Homosexuality and incest and polygamy are different things and it doesn’t take much deep thought to figure that out. Ken I liked your 9:03 am post and Ben I liked your 9:29 post. Christians say some of the stupidest things and I mean just plain butt a.. stupid.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
Tabooga…honey,
Pedophilia is a crime involving a non-consenting minor so we can take that off the list right away (as with the crime of bestiality which involves a non-consenting different species). Nudism? Are you kidding…that has nothing to do with sexuality…most nudists are just old hippies that don’t like to wear clothes…so we can take that off of the list.
As to your implication that tolerance of gays should include tolerance of other relationship lifestyles my answer is that those groups are on their own. The issues of those supporting polygamy or incest have nothing to do with my relationship issues and if those groups want tolerance then it’s up to them to promote that. The fact that tolerance toward gays may lead to the debate about tolerance of other lifestyles is not sufficient reason to deny gays basic rights.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
I wonder why homosexuality is such a huge issue that merits so much focus above and beyond that which is collectively given by Christians to so many other sins? The Bible lists gays and drunkards within the same verse as groups unable to inherit the kingdom of heaven, so where is the push to bring back Prohibition? Jesus never mentions gays but does say that a man who divorces his wife and marries another woman is living in perpetual sin, so where is the push for a Constitutional Amendment barring divorce and remarriage?
A Christian might say that we have to draw the line somewhere. That’s true, but where that line is drawn seems to be based more upon their personal comfort zone than anything actually written in the Bible. Gay issues are so controversial right now because so many Christians continually recreate their God in their own images, complete with their own biases. In other words, ‘I might want me a beer or a divorce, but I sure do hate them f*.’ Something I heard recently is that Richard Land, who holds some high position in the Southern Baptist Convention, stated that the number of parishioners who have offered to volunteer their time to do whatever they can to fight gay marriage far exceeds the number who were ever willing to offer their time to fight abortion. Very telling. When you are more concerned about homos getting hitched than what you truly believe to be the alleged wholesale daily slaughter of little babies, you are one sick, hateful puppy, regardless of your asserted motivations.
I too was once a very devoted Christians, but I eventually became no longer able to rationalize my presence amongst a legion of hypocrites who exalt a book filled with contradictions. The whole ‘gay reparative therapy’ phenomenon is yet one more example of the hypocritical Christian penchant for downplaying sins they regularly commit, while fixating on the elimination of so-called sins that they find personally ‘icky’ and unenjoyable.
By Carlton Wyatt
August 15, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
Some “god” is just as irrelevant as the ignorant dolts who believe in it. Your stupid religious beliefs should have and will have no effect on MY life and MY desires. If you want to worship some goober ghost in the privacy of your home or church, have at it, doesn’t bother me any. But when you start mandating that others bow down to your super spook, I take exception. You and your “god” can kiss my homosexual behind.
By Chilao
August 15, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
Can Christian counselors change sexual orientation?
Sure, I used to view with lustful intent the married woman across the street with the big booty, who also taught me all about sex that summer before I went away to college. But then I met with my Pastor and he pointed out a Ten Commandment that said it was wrong, so I put any thoughts of previous Biblical knowledge of that fine booty out of my mind.
I used to envy and covet my neighbor with the big SUV, until I met with my Pastor, and he pointed out the Ten Commandment that said coveting was wrong, so I no longer covet that SUV.
I used to tell little fibs to the police officer that pulled me over while speeding, making up stories, but then I met with my Pastor and he pointed out one of the Ancient Egyptians 40 Negative Confessions(simplified in the Ten Commandments as Thou shall not bear false witness, no telling of lies) so now I just tell the Trooper I have no excuse for doing 85mph, and please write me up.
By sct
August 15, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this
Here is a bit of some of the “religious counseling” you will find on James Dobson’s Focus on the Family website. This is the so called religios leader in the field, I just hope his advise on how to keep a suspected child from turning gay doesn’t get censored by ajc.com. Its fascinating to read this stuff you should check out what I have linked and see for yourself.
the boy’s father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son’s maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p***, just like his, only bigger.
James Dobson http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm
By taboga
August 15, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this
Homosexuality and incest and polygamy are different things and it doesn’t take much deep thought to figure that out.
Of course they are “different” things. My question still remains: If you proclaim “open-mindedness” - why not embrace those as well?
Aren’t those folks “born that way”? If a 45 year old man and his 22 year old daughter want to marry - aren’t they consenting adults?
If 3 men want to marry the same woman and all agree to this relationship - aren’t they consenting adults?
Why are you “open-minded” only when it comes to Gays?
By T.J. Norman
August 15, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this
The same people who say homosexuals are “damned to hell” by God also believe that God is omnipotent, right? And that God is incapable of making mistakes, right?
Well, guess what. God made homosexuals. After all, we are all creatures of God, right? And made in God’s image, right? Or are those tenets of the “Christian” teachings only to be applied randomly?
To my non-accepting “Christian” friends, I say beware. One day you’re going to have to explain to God why you doubted God’s ability and infinite wisdom to create some people differently than others.
By Tommy Beall
August 15, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this
Here’s my bottom line: Religion is a crock of s**t. What Shaunti says, and what other people say who agree with her, means absolutely nothing to me. Religion is for the weak-minded, the meak, the helpless, the hypocrites, the liars, the pitiful and pathetic…I could go on and on. Only the intelligent will understand the truth on this subject.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this
TJ,
God may have made poison ivy too. But you might want to stay away from that as well.
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this
Actually, I think open-mindedness toward things that hurt no one and violate nobody’s rights is a good general principle—especially for self-proclaimed Christians, who are supposed to leave judgment in the hands of God.
I would be interested to see if any ‘research’ is being done into converting straights into homosexuals… after all, if you can “teach” someone to behave differently in one direction, why not another?
Unless, of course, it’s not about teaching at all—just rampant gay-bashing and ignorant bigotry. Which explains why taboga’s in love with it, but how about the rest of you?
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this
Tabooga,
Are you tolerant of other races?
If so, how can you not be tolerant of thieves, murderers, and terrorists?
Are you a hypocrite who limits his tolerance to only people of other races?
Just kidding. The fact you that you equate being gay with the laundry list of items that you do speaks volumes about what is wrong with your worldview.
By Marc
August 15, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
Shaunti,
I hope your daughter grows up to marry a “former” gay man. Then, after about 5-10 years of an unhappy marriage, they will get divorced and the man will finally accept himself as a gay man. Then you will change your mind about everything you said in this article. I have lost all respect for you.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
Tommy,
Your leftist tolerance of others is sticking out like the sore thumb.
By Todd
August 15, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
My one question is, why does anyone else CARE about what happens between two consenting ADULTS. Pedofiles are totally different since they have sex with minors (and notice that there seem to be more STRAIGHT pedofiles than GAY ones). It is not anyone else’s business what happens between closed doors of adults.
By quicklynow
August 15, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
Actually, what are the objections to consensual polygamy? I believe at one time it was a form of forced slavery for women, but now if everyone is consenting, why shouldn’t they be allowed to all marry…I’m just asking…not promoting.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this
Both pedophilia and bestiality involve parties who cannot knowingly consent.
I personally could not care less regarding polygamy. The more, the merrier — I kid. If Jim Bob can find two ladies who are both willing to become part of his herum, why stop them?
As for incest, if you are both adults, and you are either sterile or using birth control, go ahead and do your sister if both of you want to do that. [Eww!] Just don’t do it on my lawn, please.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
Questions, I feel truly blessed that you would wish me to return. :) I spent last week on a different site, discussing of all things homosexuality.
I have struggled with my own sexuality for years. I lived in a lesbian relationship for 5 years. It was very destructive and hurt my child terribly. I have fought an attraction to women all my life, but I was also attracted to men so I guess that would make me bisexual. I know that when I was involved with her we engaged in very risky sexual behavior with numerous people together. It was a decadent lifestyle that I truly regret with all my heart.
I started reading the Bible and everything began to change for me. My anger with men began to fade and my attraction to women became less obsessive. After three years I have my sexual addictions under control and I can finally say I love myself. I think alot of what I allowed to happen stemmed from self-hatred.
I would not say that is true of all gay people. I have lots of gay friends and I do feel concerned for them on a daily basis. Some of them are in monogamous loving relationships and I pray that Our Creator will in His great mercy, see their love for each other and accept it. He is a loving God and with Him anything is possible.
However, the Bible does forbid it. I have chosen to trust that God has a very good reason for this. I do see the destruction in many of my friends lives and their families lives. Most of the gay people I have come into contact with have been nonmonogamous and engaged in many risky sexual behaviors. Based only on my relationships with them, I can see why so many people don’t think very highly of gay people.
By Whiley
August 15, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this
Proof again, the religious is completely obsessed with sex.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Just kidding. The fact you that you equate being gay with the laundry list of items that you do speaks volumes about what is wrong with your worldview.
Ryan,
I didn’t equate anything.
I am simply asking those; who stand on the notion of “open-mindedness” and claim to be tolerant and understanding of others, why do they not embrace incest and the others that I mentioned.
Simple question. Simple reasoning. Simple logic.
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this
Where does the Bible forbid homosexuality, anyway? If it’s that section of the Old Testament that condemns polyester blends, shellfish, and planting two crops in the same field… why should Christians care?
In case you’ve forgotten the Old Testmanent is for Jews. For Christians, all the OT rules are null and void; they have no value or meaning any more since Jesus rewrote the playbook. So where does Jesus condemn homosexuality, please?
By taboga
August 15, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
Nudist colonies exist in different parts of the country and they are welcomed. People can’t walk around nude in public but they can practice being a nudist.
So you think it’s ok to discriminate against Nudists?
And what if someone suggested to you that Gays should be restricted to colonies - out of the public?
By JB
August 15, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
What is assumed by most is that all species of animals (humans included) have one set of specific attributes that rule their existance. The truth is that animals are imperfect and are continually in flux with all types of variables that either take root and become the norm or die out due to natural selection. Homosexual behavior is a biological trait. One only needs to look to animals in nature to realize that there are examples of homosexual behavior exhibited by animals in nature. Does that mean that your dog Sparky has a mental condition? Highly unlikely. There are animals that aren’t even male or female. So do we label them as sinners because they are neither here nor there? Of course not. Because humans make the mistake of hubris thinking we are not animals and therefore our variations from a baseline are because someone is not right in the head. Religious propaganda. The truth is, homosexual behavior pre-dates religion. Not because of mental health, because mother nature is a mad scientist. But Jesus freaks don’t believe in evolution, so it makes sense that they cannot grasp this blatantly obvious concept that homosexuality is not a choice. And to Shaunti who suggests that gays can change doesn’t address the fact that peer pressure and ridicule from a Bible thumping society is a powerful motivator to force a person to deny their inner feelings. A lot of people do things they hate in order to fit in and feel normal. That does not mean they magically become straight. Typical religious garbage.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
Taboga,
Let me try again…
Would you ask someone who proclaims their tolerance for people of other races whether, in order to be logically consistent, he/she is tolerant of pedophilia and incest?
If your response is ‘no,’ then you did implicitly equate homosexuality with those things.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
Brian, Romans 1:26-27
By Heather
August 15, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
My dog eats out of a bowl on the floor. I don’t think he has a mental disorder. If my 9 year old suddenly decided he was going to do that, I might start to worry about him.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this
Tabooga,
Give up…your argument is going nowhere.
The act of nudity is prohibited from public view, but nudist may freely walk around in public if they are clothed.
Gay sex, just like hetero sex is already prohibited from public view, but people can freely walk around in public when they aren’t having sex.
Frankly I really don’t care if people want to walk around nekid, except most of the people that seem to like that usually are the last ones you want to see without clothes :).
By sct
August 15, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this
Jesus spoke out against public prayer. He told everyone they should do all their praying in private.
When people stop insisting on public prayer (are you listening Cobb County), I might listen too what religious people claim is best for me. Until you learn one of Jesus’s most basic teachings, I will have you people on ignore. Set the example christians!!
By the way, how is that war going in Iraq, you know the one started by our born again president?
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this
This, like all of the other so-called ‘moral values’ questions, is impossible to debate.
If I don’t share your beliefs, then your opinions — which are rooted in those beliefs — do not move me at all and sound, quite frankly, silly to me. Likewise, the fact that my opinions are not rooted in your beliefs makes my opinion evil in your eyes.
‘You’re stupid and oppressive!’ ‘Yeah, well, you’re wicked and immoral!’
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this
Heather: That verse tells us only that PAUL didn’t approve of homosexuality. Who cares what Paul thinks? I’m asking where Jesus condemns it.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this
sct, Jesus was referring to people who didn’t pray in private and only prayed for others to watch and be impressed with their holiness.
Yes, Christians should set the example. Nothing is more destructive than a religious hypocrite. But not every Christian who protests gay rights is a hypocrite.
By Questions
August 15, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this
that Romans scripture can be interpreted several ways as well. Slavery and the suppression of women were also acceptable in New Testament times. Does that mean we were wrong to free the slaves or give women the right to vote, own property, etc?
few things worse than a reformed smoker, huh?
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
Heather,
My 9 year old eats off a bowl on the floor all the time, what’s the problem?
;)
By JB
August 15, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
If you fed your 9 year old on the floor that’s where he’d eat. But where you eat is a learned behavior not a hard wired instinct. The instinct TO EAT is hard wired, just like the instincts related to sexual behavior. You don’t teach your kid that they are hungry and you don’t teach them to have sex. Those things are instinctively done.
Remember an egg is neither male or female from its start. That is determined later. It is arrogant to think that the process of becoming male or female is perfect every time. Do you think it is impossible for the development of the mind to not be in sync with the development of genitalia?
By taboga
August 15, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
Would you ask someone who proclaims their tolerance for people of other races whether, in order to be logically consistent, he/she is tolerant of pedophilia and incest?
Ryan,
Your question makes no sense. I am simply citing different types behavior. A person’s “race” is not a behavior.
And I could have cited any type of behavior - but thought I would keep it somewhat topic related. I am not “equating” homosexuality with incest. They are two distinctly different things, yet one is to be tolerated and the other is not. Why?
By Kay
August 15, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
The Bible teaches that men and women should not leave the natural use of one another in proper relations for sexual satisfaction, therefore, masturbation would be excluded (Romans 1:26,27). It also says that the marriage bed should be without defilement eliminating all unnatural sexual acts. Masturbation is included in that because it not natural either in that you leave the natural use of the opposite sex for sexual satisfaction.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
Well, Brian Curtis, Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit. Anyone who has been so filled and reads Pauls words believes them because they resonate within the reader. I absolutely detested Paul until I experienced the Holy Spirit for myself, afterwards Pauls words made perfect sense to me and I believed them.
By sct
August 15, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
There will be a rally this Saturday at the Cobb County Civic Center for Christians Against Public Prayer.
Please show your support for the blasphamy taking part in Cobb County. Its an abomination.
By Goodlookingandstraight
August 15, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Heather,
I don’t buy your “risky behavior” theory. Any half-way decent looking guy (heterosexual) is trying to snag as much tail as he can. I know I do - and I’m loving it! I figure when I hit about sixty or if I come down with a life-threatening disease I’ll accept Jesus as my savior and walk right through the pearly gates.
You gotta love religion!
By Liz
August 15, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
I have not even read ALL of the comments, it was just too disturbing. I just wanted to add my two cents. First, it should be acknowledged that I am a lesbian. I do want to point out to all those stating that homosexuality is against God and a sin. It is also a sin according to the Bible to wear cloth with two different types of thread. So in essence, aren’t we all sinners?
I have been made in God’s image just as the heterosexual next to me has. And God does not make mistakes. As for the whole discussion on conversion therapy, I believe in my heart it is unnatural for any person to go against what God has made them. As long as no one is being hurt, there is no reason to question this point. I cannot help my feeling of attraction, both physical and mental, for women. Therefore, if I were to go and attempt conversion therpy, I would feel that I were going against what God made me. And I repeat, God does not make mistakes.
I lead a happy life with my partner of 5 years. I am young, just a mere 28. I came out when I was 16, but knew I was “different” all my life. I do not “look” gay, and can easily pass as hetero. I have long hair, wear skirts, and in no way have a problem with my femininity. I would not want to change my life or who I am. I will always be what God made me. And if I am happy with that, then no one has the right to tell me that I am wrong.
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
Most of the scriptures attributed to Paul weren’t even written by him. And most of the authors of Bible scriptures have names, but their identity is a mystery. Not to mention that these scriptures have been translated from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English and were edited and changed at every stage for content by translators and different Popes and clergy to suit their mood. But yet people will thump the King James version of the Bible as literal fact in the face of information to the contrary. Amazing.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
JB, I think many things happen to children that influence their sexual selection. My ex-partner was abused and molested, every lesbian I know was molested as a child. That doesn’t mean all lesbians were but every one I know has been.
But don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate gay people and I truly hope they are not all going to hell. If they are I will miss many of my friends. But it is a painful lifestyle that comes with a lot of baggage that can get in the way of a healthy relationship with God.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Taboga,
I believe that gayness is more than simply a question of behavior, whereas you clearly do not.
If learned behavior is your touchstone, then substitute ‘religion’ for ‘race’ in my hypo. Religion is, at its essence, a learned behavior, as no one is born practicing any given theology.
So…
‘Would you ask someone who proclaims their tolerance for Jews whether, in order to be logically consistent, he/she is tolerant of pedophilia and incest?
If your response is ‘no,’ then you did implicitly equate homosexuality with those things.’
By Marc
August 15, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Your question makes no sense. I am simply citing different types behavior. A person’s “race� is not a behavior.
And I could have cited any type of behavior - but thought I would keep it somewhat topic related. I am not “equating� homosexuality with incest. They are two distinctly different things, yet one is to be tolerated and the other is not. Why?
You are confusing sexuality with sexual behaviour. Everyone has a sexuality, and no one gets to choose it. Everyone has the choice whether to have sex or not. Think of it this way. A gay man may die a 90 year old virgin, but he was still gay.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Liz,
You cited God. Those who would agree with your sexuality - don’t believe in God. And in fact, one of them out here has labeled you a “mistake”. He believes that Evolution made some “mistakes” and you; according to him - would be one of those mistakes.
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this
The baggage of being gay is not standard equipment that comes with it. The baggage is heaped on by fanatics who don’t have enough going on in their lives, so they need to control others too.
I do want to say kudos to Liz. Don’t let anyone tell you how to live.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Goodlookingandstraight, you might drop dead tomorrow from a heart attack but I will pray for you, :).
By Heather
August 15, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
JB, you said, “Most of the scriptures attributed to Paul weren’t even written by him.”
Do you have documentation to prove this?
By THETRUTH
August 15, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Here is the problem with religious folks - they are mentally weak. They cannot handle life and specific life situations so they turn to “God” to get them through. They cannot handle that life is random - when a child drowns, it’s not because god needs another angel, when a person gets cancer its not God’s plan for you or a test from God. It is life. Life is Random - accepting this is almost the same as accepting a religion. Except here, your dealing with reality, not making up niceties for your fragile little minds. You believe fairy tales - the biggest one of all is heaven and hell. There’s a magical place where all good dead people go…When you die your existence ends. Period. Face this weak-minded believers or is it to hard for you? Religion was made to explain natural phenomenon to early civilizations (in simple terms) and people in the year 2005 still believe in the “miracle” theory of creation. And a magical being just went “poof” and there was man! You people are indoctrinated at such a young age that I understand its initial grasp, but as you intellectually develop how can you not let go of these folk-tales? Look at some of the bloggers whose world view is “good” vs. “evil” how simple minded are you? How easliy manipulated can people be? Oh, I forgot, the DEVIL will get you and you need God’s protection. Oh.sh@#$t. I gotta go… the boogie man climbing up from under..my…be…
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Taboga, I never said it was a mistake. Your assuming that there is an absolute right type of behavior. I’m saying that mother nature is a mixed bag. Things vary in nature and that is what happens. None of us are perfect. We all have things about us that are completely different than the person next to us. This is just another one of those things. I have brown eyes, you have blue.
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this
Heather, watch the history or discovery channel some day. I realize they have programs that discuss evolution and that may be some violation of your religion to watch these channels, but you might actually learn something new instead of regurgitating the same 2000 year old garbage.
By Goodlookingandstraight
August 15, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
Heather,
If I drop dead because of a heart attack I hope it’s because I got two hot women in my bed!!
But thanks for your prayers…I assume you hold a lot of weight with the guy upstairs..So I think i’ll be okay.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this
Yah right Kay actually that passage you chose to quote is the only specific passage in the bible that refers directly towards homosexuality amongst females. Has nothing to do with masterbation, I like how you people try to take passages from the text and apply it to what ever you feel it’s relevent too. Even though the actual text has nothing to do with the topic. Just because we might not go to church every week and pray obsessively don’t think we not well amare of bible verse. Try again look all day call your pastor 10 times you still won’t find any scripture that says masterbation is a sin.
By Carol
August 15, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this
David,
I take it that you go to one of those ‘enlightened’ churches where the most exciting thing supernaturally that happens is when the pastor says ‘Amen!’ and closes the service.
No wonder people long for anything that can take the place of this dead god. Your god is powerless.
By Chantel
August 15, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this
Shaunti says, “You are also doing no favors to the hundreds of thousands of people who feel same-sex attraction, but do not want to live that way.”
Did it ever occur to you that the reason they do not want to live that way is because of the harrassment and judgment that closed-minded “Christians” pass on them? If they could live in peace than there would be no reason to try to hide from their identity. Why would anyone choose to be the brunt of such cruelty? If the ignorant and intolerant would just catch up to the 21st century it would be a non-issue!
By Ken
August 15, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this
Brian… The Old Testament absolutely means something to Christians, otherwise we would not read the scripture or have pastors give homilies on the text.
The Bible has very little the specifically condemn homosexual behavior and those references can be construed in multiple ways. However, there is NOTHING that condones it. All references and allusions are those of a man and a woman.
That being said, the best way to act is to live out your path as you believe God leads you. If I believe it is immoral to engage in any specific behavior, I will refrain, teach my children to refrain as well and allow others to make their own decisions.
By Roxane
August 15, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Having lived happily in a lesbian monogomous relationship (I am actually bisexual) for the last 18 years, I must say, it never fails to amaze me that the people who have the most to say about how I live my life are usually busy thumping their bible (or should I say storybook)in my face, while busy sinning right and left. I was raised Southern Baptist, and started questioning my religion at the age of 16. I was a confirmed agnostic by the time I graduated from college, and completely done with religion well prior to finding out I liked women as much as men. I was raised to be a good little straight girl, I was not molested as a child, nor did I experience any inability to bond with either of my parents. And I have been perfectly happy in my lesbian relationship. Why can’t you bible thumpers just let us live our lives the best way we know how…are we hurting you? Is our relationship somehow threatening your marriage or ability to lead the life you choose?
Did anyone ever stop to think that the reason there is so-called conversion therapy is because there are so many of you out there trying to make gays and lesbians feel bad for who they are, that they will do whatever it takes to change their lives, just to make someone else (parent, friend, pastor) happy? They aren’t being changed, they are just being brainwashed, and in 20 years they are going to wake up and leave their spouses, confuse their children, and go back to who they really are…is that better?
By sct
August 15, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this
There will be a protest this Saturday at the Cobb County Civic Center. Christians Against Rape are sponsoring the rally.
In 2003 there were 200,000 rapes in this country almost all committed by straight males, an abomination. Its time we all speak up and demand an end to all heterosexual sex.
By George
August 15, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Who are all y’all and why are you attempting to answer this question? And why was the question proposed to two straight women? Unless you are all mind readers, how can you answer whether or not counseling can change sexual behavior? We need to hear from people who have been through this therapy. I was a virgin who initially had only straight sex. I had a proverbial gun to my head, the rules of straight society, telling me this was my only option in life. I was a miserable, drunken alcoholic who tried to medicate his true sexual attraction. Therapy didn’t work for me. The only people I have heard proclaim that it was a success always have the same caveat, that only their behavior has changed; they are still attracted to their own gender. They pray for deliverance of this desire, only to have their prayers go unanswered. Like I said before, sex is neither morally good nor bad. Like eating, sleeping, urinating, or defecating, having an orgasm is something that is irrelevant to our souls. God is neither male, female, gay or straight. He has no gender. Gender is just something we have in this stage of our existence. Not everyone is required to perpetuate the species. There are already too many of us here as it is now.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
JB,
Let’s assume that all you stated last is true. Where then, does the requirement come from - that we all must accept everything?
And if you believe that we evolved naturally, then why would we try and change the natural tendency of people to oppose that which is different than them?
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this
sct, how many of those rapes were by priests?
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this
…Ok, so I’ll go on… Religion provides a false sense of security to people who yearn for “something” to beleive in, to protect them, to give them hope… The most rational, intelligent humans are the ones who know better and have an innate sense of understanding how life probably really is and works. Why would anyone in their right mind leave it up to some phony, so-called “god” just because they were told to and not know any better? If “religion” works for you, fine. Sad, but fine, ok, take it, do what you will with it. But keep all the bull*t to yourself..
By JB
August 15, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
Taboga, Nobody is requiring you to do anything. But because religious folk tend to be invasive and try to suppress other people, you’re gonna hear about it. If you’d just live YOUR life and leave other people to theirs, then we’d all get along great.
Your last question makes no sense. Are you saying that it is natural to hate things that are different from us? That is a learned trait, not a naturally embedded trait. If you hate people of a different race, it’s because your parents or people who influenced you early on did so. Not because you have a “white” or “black” gene in your head. Dude, did you miss basic science 101?
By Liz
August 15, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this
taboga,
I am glad that we have different gods then. Other than that, I will not give you the satisfaction of answering to your statement. You do not deserve my attention.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this
If homosexuals are to be allowed to be who they are, then why can’t people who are opposed to homosexuality be allowed to be who they are?
If being a homosexual is not wrong, then why is opposing homosexuality wrong?
If homosexuals shouldn’t be forced to change, why should those who are opposed to homosexuality be forced to change their views?
And is it homosexuals or heterosexuals who are asking to be accepted by the other?
Homosexuals should not have to change, yet the whole of society should?
By Questions
August 15, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this
Do you think there were gays in Bible times? Sure there were, they all ended up under a pile of stones.
Oh to return this country to the great theocracy the founding fathers intended.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
What kills me in these discussions is how people who go on and on about treating homosexuals with respect don’t find it necessary to treat Christians with respect. All a person has to do is go onto a discussion board and proclaim themselves a Christian and they are ridiculed. All this does in reinforce the Christian belief that non-believers are controlled by the devil. There is all this talk about how Christians should set the example but the only example we get from non-believers reinforces our already poor opinion of you.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this
And don’t try Genesis 38:6-9, The sin of Onan. Even in that passage Onan was believed to be killed not because he masterbated but because he was practising unclean birth control, coitus interruptus (i.e. he pulled out spilling his seed on the ground).
By JB
August 15, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
Heather, The subject of this board was can Christian counseling change someone from gay to straight. No one forced you to comment on the subject. But once you did, stating that gays are choosing to live “in sin” as you would call it, then you’ve opened yourself up for scrutiny of your lifestyle. People are born with a sexual predisposition. People however, are not born Christian or Buddhist or Scientoligist. Those are choices. If you choose to be ignorant, then don’t get upset when you’re called out on it.
Questions, The founding fathers went out of their way to make sure this country was NOT a theocracy. If you read the writings of these men like Jefferson, Madison, Franklin etc, you’d know that they wanted to keep religion out of the governance of this country. All of the references to ‘god’ that religious people point to as evidence of a religious notion were added in the last 60-70 years. Currency, the pledge of alligience. The only reference in 1776 in the Declaration of Independence is to “their creator” which denotes ambiguity. It means however you view your creator, you were endowed with inaliable rights by him/her/it. Read a book other than the ole King James once in a while. Geez.
By sct
August 15, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this
So heather, do you expect people to just ignore people like James Dobson who proclaims on his website that one of the ways to cure a pre-gay child of homosexuality is by taking “his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only bigger.”
After all this man is a so-called religious expert in gay conversion. Are we supposed to ignore this type of insanity because he is a christian, this man has the presidents ear. He is a hero of the religious right.
And are you saying Christians should not have to lead by example, like “judge not”, or “throw the first stone.”
By DB
August 15, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Taboga: Your last post makes you sound like a leftist! Oh, no! People who are opposed to homosexuality are allowed to be who they are because few people oppose being heterosexual. Last I checked, homosexuals are a part of society, so your “whole” description does nothing more than show your inability to accept the opinions of others as you ask others to accept yours.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
Heather,
FYI… If you tell someone that he/she is wicked and somehow less morally upstanding than you, you should not be shocked when they don’t have respect for you.
And if you tell me that I am ‘controlled by the Devil,’ I’m gonna laugh at you and discount everything you say.
It’s a two-way road, Sweetie.
By David
August 15, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
I take it that you go to one of those ‘enlightened’ churches where the most exciting thing supernaturally that happens is when the pastor says ‘Amen!’ and closes the service.
Carol, you sound like a sad woman. Nice that you can cast off your fellow Christians so easily. Must be nice to have all the answers.
By Anthony
August 15, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this
Didnt Jesus say the only commandment is love one another as I loved you? He didnt include exceptions. Im a Christian, I was taught its not my place to judge but only to love. To judge thats up to GOD.
By David
August 15, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
I’m a moderate conservative, but there are times I wish America was more like Europe. There will come a day when religion is not taken as seriously as it is in this country. Too bad the time is not here yet.
By Questions
August 15, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this
@JB - theocracy meant as sarcasm as aren’t most of my posts…sorry to get you worked up….
but if you listened to some fundamentalists….
By Nikita
August 15, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this
re: the homosexuality = mental illness post, first the chicken or the egg? i have yet to see a study that proves that homosexuality causes mental illness or is even a symptom of it. But it’s fairly logical that a class of people who are systematically discriminated against (particularly in the heavy-handed way that children are generally handled) would experience some negative psychological effects.
“Furthermore, a homosexual man has a definite identity. He is not a man who wants to be a woman. He is a man who prefers sex with men… There are no born homosexuals. It is an emotional disposition that is learned….”
Sentence 4 is a non-sequitur. and utterly without proof.
“By destiny one is born a biological male or female, but to rightly fulfill one’s biological role requires learning…”
judgment alert — “rightly.” indicates more about the speaker’s point of view than the subject.
“Though not every child who lacks these basic securities becomes homosexual, every homosexual manifests this lack.â€?
untrue. i have several examples to the contrary.
“Mental illness can be cured.”
Sometimes. But the writer hasn’t demonstrated that homosexuality is an illness.
This debate doesn’t really touch on my beliefs. Which are that psychiatric quackery is a luxury when done on adults and criminal when done on children. Reparative therapy (implying that someone who is homosexual is damaged) is fine and dandy if you choose it — which is to say if you want to take steps to alter the path you’re on. But if you are being treated against your will, then that’s completely reprehensible.
By JB
August 15, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
I think its humorous that people will argue and discuss the intentions and plans of someone they’ve never seen or heard. I think you’d be hard pressed to assess those things about the person in the cubical next to you that you see and talk to every day, much less a god that has been MIA for 2000 years.
By JB
August 15, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
My apologies, Questions. It’s hard to read every post, and sarcasm is hard to detect unless you’ve read along the whole time.
By Keith
August 15, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Wow, I just love to read the paper on a Monday morning only to find out that I’m going to burn in hell for being gay. It must be wonderful to yield such power that you can proclaim what will happen to me in the afterlife. Did you have to apply for the job or do you just know so much that you appointed yourself to the position? I mean, after all, being able to judge who’s going to hell and who is not is a big responsibility. But alas, if going to hell will shield me from idiotic people like you than bring it on. I’d prefer never ending fire and brimstone than an eternity with self righteous, pompous, arrogant people like you any day.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
I’m sorry… it simply does not follow that true tolerance means being tolerant of intolerance.
Rejecting racial prejudice does not mean you have to treat the opinions of Neo-Nazis with respect in order to be consistent.
I think you have every right to have your opinion, I do not, however, think you should be allowed to use the government to force those opinions to keep other groups on a lesser level in society. Gays are not trying to change society, they are simply seeking an equal position in society to that which you already have. Your desire to keep them as second class citizens is not equivolent to their desire not to be second class citizens.
By Abby Normal
August 15, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
If the majority constitutes what is normal, and the majority of people voted for Bush, then call me a perversion, and the blood of American soldiers and the “collateral damage” of innocent Iraqis can be on normal peoples’ hands.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this
Ryan, I didn’t believe in the devil once upon a time. That is the greatest weapon he has to use against you, your disbelief. He tells you lies. He makes you proud. He whispers to you that you don’t need to follow some god. He tells you its all okay, do what you want. He tells you the Bible is a bunch of made up fairy tales that any “thinking” person would be stupid to follow. He delights in your sin, the more he can make you sin, the happier he becomes. He doesn’t care if you are happy, be happy the devil says, just don’t be happy in God. Be happy in sin. The devil knows scripture backwards and forwards. He can quote it exactly word for word because the devil knows God. He just doesn’t want you to. I have seen the devil. I have seen his face. The devil is not some red dude with horns and a pitchfork but he does have a face and if you play around with him enough, you too will see him one day.
Homosexuality has been a big part of my life. I don’t believe all homosexuals are going to hell. I think Our Maker has a plan for everyone. However, I know for a fact that many homosexuals are in serious trouble spiritually. Many heterosexuals are in serious trouble spiritually. Many of the people posting on this board are in serious trouble spiritually.
By Argy
August 15, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this
Ryan,
I wouldn’t get yourself worked up over Taboga. He makes intentionally bad arguments in order to get under people’s skin. It’s kind of funny sometimes, but he really shouldn’t be taken seriously.
By Adam
August 15, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this
TO EVERY STRAIGHT PERSON
Can you imagine deciding to be gay? If you wanted to, could you do it? Could you also make yourself sexually arounsed by someone of the same sex? I seriously doubt it… so why would you think someone who is gay can “turn” straight?!?
By Argy
August 15, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this
Nikita,
The egg came before the chicken.
By JB
August 15, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this
Wow, Heather. Some right wing nut job has done a number on you. I feel really sorry for you. Not only are you depriving yourself of what comes natural to you, but you’ve been twisted to think that by depriving yourself of this you will somehow be rewarded after your dead. That sounds familiar. Oh yeah that’s how Islamic extremists recruit young men to be martyrs. By rejecting normal society and performing these terrorist acts, they will be pleasured by 70 virgins in Paradise after they die. This is why religion makes me so angry. It preys upon the weak minded, promising wonders beyond their comprehension and forces them to waste their lives preparing for the next one. How sad. Truly sad.
By JB
August 15, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Human being by birth, hateful bigot by the grace of god.
By Adam
August 15, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
In response to tabooga… or whoever…
[http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/custom/blogs/woman/entries/2005/08/10/canchristianc.html#comment-258140]
Let’s discuss this in context of another issue. Will you agree that racism is wrong? Would you ask us to accept a racist person for their beliefs?
By Karen
August 15, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Since I am personally acquainted with two men who walked away from homosexual lifestyles with the help of Christian counseling, and since both of these men give every indication by both what they say and how they act that they are very content more than a decade after their lives changed, the answer to the initial question must be “yes.”
Can Christian counseling “cure” bigotry? Whether it is anti-homosexual bigotry, or anti-Christian bigotry, or racist or sexist bigotry, I suggest that it can - but probably only of the bigot really wants to change.
I think there are approximately 6.5 billion opinions on this planet. Either you believe in God and his exclusive right to call something sin, or you don’t believe it and you are simply preferring your own opinion over everyone else’s. I can’t see why the word “sin” would be offensive to someone who doesn’t believe in God. If you don’t believe in God, then you don’t believe in sin, either. If you do believe in God, does it make sense to argue with him for the sake of agreeing with another human being?
On behalf of Jesus, I need to tell you that no one is condemned to hell for the sin of homosexuality. Everyone who goes to hell goes by their own free choice to reject Jesus and the forgiveness he offers for all the sins of all sinners.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
Hush Heather, the grown-ups are talking…
By Ken
August 15, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
I think Tommy should wake up… Some of the most enlightened and intelligent people this world has ever seen either did or do believe in God.
He has simply hardened his heart to the redemptive spirit that God provides to all of his children. One day he may open the door, but then again he may not. I suspect he has simply seen what happens when man perverts what God has given him, the gift of his church. Unfortunately, I also suspect he is not the only one.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this
Heather, I think I know what your talking about troublesome sometimes….scary feeling.
By DB
August 15, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this
More people should listen to Ryan, David, and Anthony in their most recent posts. That’s my opinion in a nutshell.
By quicklynow
August 15, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
Heather you are in trouble intellectually. My dear, you seem to just be co-dependent moving from one crutch to another. Please don’t insult our intelligence with references to a midieval booger-man.
This is why you don’t get any respect…
By BAM
August 15, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this
WOW!! I have been so busy trying live my life based on the golden rule (which I was taught in kindergarten) and working diligently to keep my side of the street clean, that I have had very little, if any, time to be judgmental of others. I had no idea there were so many people who were perfect and had plenty of time to tell others how to be perfect, too.
By lozen
August 15, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this
Shame and guilt about sexuality is one of the most anti-human, anti-joy, anti-life, anti-nature things we were unfortunate enough to inherit from the christian patriarchy. Some of us were lucky enough to realize that and we’ve succeeded, to some extent, in overcoming it. That’s what needs to change, not sexual orientation. Sadly, noone born into a culture so neurotic around sexuality will ever know what it would feel like to live without any shame and guilt about our sexuality. My sex life is none of your business. Your rules and regulations do not apply to me or to anyone else. It is the most private part of my life and it simply has nothing to do with you and your religious beliefs. NOTHING! Some of you still wallow in that shame and guilt and you’re convinced that it’s unnatural, shameful, sinful for anyone to pleasure themselves sexually, for a woman to love another woman, for a man to love another man, for a man and a woman who aren’t married to have sex. I really don’t care what you think. You use some vague quote from the Bible to prove your point. I don’t care what the bible, the Upanishads, the Koran, or any other book says or doesn’t say about my sex life. You see sexuality through your filter of shame and guilt and it comes out with your little staight-jacket rules for everybody. You actually believe you are qualified to tell others how to conduct their most intimate dealings in life! How very silly! You just can’t do that. You invent a god in your image (you think that gives your ideas some authority that you don’t have; it doesn’t!) who you SAY wants to tell us all how we are allowed to have sex… That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. Homosexuality is not evil and it’s not unnatural. Those of you who hate gays are filled with shame and guilt and fear and you hate sex. You made up the rule that there’s only one acceptable way to have sex and still be all right with jesus. Although your holy book is full of stories of men with hundreds of wives and concubines, you decided it can only be one way: one woman and one man with a blood test and a piece of paper from the county that says it’s okay. How ridiculous you are! God loved Solomon, Abraham and David with all their wives and concubines. Abraham got to do it with more than one woman didn’t he? What about old people or sick people who have no partner? You really concern yourself about them being able to find pleasure and release for themselves through masturbating? You are fools!
By Jd
August 15, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
I bet Heather lived deep in sin and only through that sin was she able to recognize her god. Some people like myself struggle with the same issues. Trying to navigate burden after burden until finally you want to give up, and I think shes referring to a timeless boogy man, and trust me your intelligence is not that hard too insult my friend
By Ben
August 15, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
Your description of the Devil fits a bunch of the so-called Christians on here Heather. Call us when you get back from la-la Land. If people don’t believe in God, why would they believe in the Devil, to some people he is made from the same pen as God.
If you want to know why Christians are attacked on blogs, read their posts. All-knowing and always right because their God said so. If your faith was so strong, you’d keep it to yourself and enjoy your relationship with God and stop judging people. But when you run off at mouth, you sound like a hypocrit!
By jpetz
August 15, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this
Social conservatives will never be satisfied until gays no longer exist on Earth. All statements to the contrary are not to be believed. The fact is that gays have been here since the dawn of man and will continue to be here into eternity. To those who believe gay folk can become heterosexual thru Jesus Christ, I’d like to know what a non-Christian homosexual is supposed to do? Or if it fails to work on a gay Christian willing to try, then what? Discrimination forever?
I have a good Christian friend who believes that God made some of us different so we could demonstrate (or not) our compassion for those who are different. The human race has continued to fail that test over time. One need only look back 140 years to find slavery in existence. Oops, almost forgot - slavery is endorsed by the Bible. Whatever was I thinking?
By Augustine
August 15, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
A number of researchers have sought to find a biological cause for same-sexual attraction. The media have promoted the idea that a “gay gene” has already been discovered, but in spite of several attempts, none of the much publicized studies (Hamer 1993; LeVay 1991) has been scientifically replicated. A number of authors have carefully reviewed these studies and found that not only do the studies not prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction; the reports do not even contain such claims. (Byne 1963; Crewdson 1995; Goldberg1992; Horgan 1995; McGuire 1995; Porter 1996; Rice 1999) If same-sex attraction were genetically determined, then one would expect identical twins to be identical in their sexual attractions. There are, however, numerous reports of identical twins who are not identical in their sexual attractions. (Bailey 1991; Eckert 1986; Friedman 1976; Green 1974; Heston 1968; McConaghy 1980; Rainer 1960; Zuger 1976) Case histories frequently reveal environmental factors which account for the development of different sexual attraction patterns in genetically identical children, supporting the theory that same-sex attraction is a product of the interplay of a variety of environmental factors. (Parker 1964) There are, however, ongoing attempts to convince the public that same-sex attraction is genetically based. (Marmor 1975) Such attempts may be politically motivated because people are more likely to respond positively to demands for changes in laws and religious teaching when they believe sexual attraction to be genetically determined and unchangeable. (Ernulf 1989; Piskur 1992) Others have sought to prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction so that they could appeal to the courts for rights based on the “immutability”. (Green 1988)
By sct
August 15, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
Karen, do you believe that part of the gay conversion therapy for pre-gay children advocated by expert James Dobson and his Focus on the Family website should include having a father shower with his son “where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only bigger.” ????
Did your friends go through similar therapy? Obviously there is more to conversion therapy than believing in god. What are these therapies? I saw alot of examples of “ex-gay” men marrying “ex-gay” women, is this the key to your therapy?
And how many people do you know that would be willing to marry an “ex-gay.”????
By Heather
August 15, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this
Thanks, jd. You are right on target. But no one could have convinced me when I was dancing with the devil that he even existed. Then one day I woke up and realized the truth of the matter. Its a scary moment when you look in the mirror and you know that you are the devil.
By taboga
August 15, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Go out and get a bite to eat, come back - the freaks are still whining.
Whine a little, throw some hate at the Christians, beg a little more, hate the Christians again and back to whining…
And what does it all come down to: The Christians have the power - the freaks have the whine. And so it shall remain.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/14/AR2005081401036.html?nav=rss_politics
If this is the image of Christianity all you Jesus hater have I don’t blame you for some of your feelings but these guys don’t represent the entire of the faith.
By Argy
August 15, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
Augustine,
We’ve seen that cut and paste before, but I’ll respond anyway. When a researcher says they may have identified a “gay” gene, they are not saying that being gay is entirely genetic (as your post says). However, if a particular gene is significantly more prevalent in homosexual men, then that suggests a genetic basis for homosexuality. As with many other genes, particular environmental conditions, social experiences, or pure chance may be necessary to activate the “gay” gene.
I find the argument over whether one is “born gay” or whether they “became gay” as a result of childhood experiences rather irrelevant. Determinism is determinism. Furthermore, the “naturalness” or “unnaturalitude” really shouldn’t be used for making moral judgments about actions. Rape is natural, but it’s not right. Many would say computers are not natural, but that does not make them wrong.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this
bingo
By raylene
August 15, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this
i have just been sitting here reading this. and i have to say, most of you are just ignorant. being homosexal is not a choice, it is the way you are born. and for you religous people stating that “GOD dissaproves of gays”, why don’t you keep in mind that if “GOD created everything” then he created people to be gay. and i agree, that some people dont act on it, but they are still gay. why is it that everyone has to change someone else. usually the people doing that are people that arent happy with themselves. i am sick of homophobes and ignorant people that just dont get life. being gay has nothing to do with GOD. just because a certain person doesnt agree with it, doesnt mean that its wrong. same with the whole abortion thing, although GOD wasnt a big factor in that discussion. i was part of the GSA(Gay-Straight Alliance)in high school. the message we tried to get across is that its ok to be gay. and straight people can be friends with them. the thing is, we are all humans so what difference does someones sexuality make? this brings up another point. our soceity is so screwed up. if we arent againest a different race, its sexual preference. or something else. why are people afraid of difference?
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Hey JD,
If the fear of God keeps you and Heather out of the crack house and keeps you from breaking into my house, then I’m all for it.
And you’re not my friend.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Ben you are full of s**…if you read the bible you should know God is totally against homosexuality and in the old testament.It says people who indulge in homosexual acts should be stoned to death. Wakeup Ben!!Homosexuality serves no purpose. The main purpose of sex is to propogate the human species. All homosexual acts do is spread disease and death. You can call me a homomophobe if you want. I don’t care. I am not afraid of homosexuals, but i don’t approve their depraved lifestyle. Anyway, your rectum is not designed for penetration, that’s why its so easy for homos to transmit the aids virus to their sex partners. Some homos can’t hold their stool because they have been pooked in their but so much.Homos are a scourge on the human race.
By sct
August 15, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this
Heather, when i was a child i answered the door after hearing a knock. I was shocked, petrified, I couldn’t believe what I was seeing! It was Santa Claus right there in front of me. He gave me a candy cane then left. Crying hysterically I told my mom that because I wasn’t asleep Santa left me no toys. My mother consoled me and reassured me that everything was okay, it was only one of Santa’s helpers. The next day I awoke to a roomful of toys!
By taboga
August 15, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
Let’s discuss this in context of another issue. Will you agree that racism is wrong? Would you ask us to accept a racist person for their beliefs?
If you were truly tolerant - yes.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
Eiri, you need not worry I try to stay out of public restrooms
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Lozen…..Your post should end this ridiculous debate that so-called “christians” seem to get off on..
By Argy
August 15, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
Let’s all applaud HARD40 for his deep insight!
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
These comments, like most, are all based on the assumption that everything is black and white with no grey areas. Yet there is a big grey area. I, myself, being a lesbian of sound mind and body, know many women in this lifestyle who thought they were lesbians because of some childhood molestions, some were raped by men and wanted nothing to do with them. However, with counseling, they now feel that they are heterosexual and want the normal straight lifestyle. Some men and women on the other hand feel that all their life they have known they were gay and not sexually drawn to people of the same sex, but drawn non the less. Noone can be sexually drawn to another human being at 5 and 6 years old GOD forbid. I believe in GOD and I know his rules. They state that we will not be in his presense int he New Jerusalem(HEAVEN), but it does NOT state that homsexuals will burn in hell. I wish that these so-called Bible Holy Rollers would read a little more carefully. Most of the people who preach about Homosexuality are having sex with the opposite sex withouut marriage, lusting, stealing, being greedy, and so forth. They want us to believe that homosexuals are going to be the only ones walking on hot coals. Please, lets stop the judging and let GOD wear that robe. This lifestyle is hard for most involved and it makes it even harder when people put every single homosexual in the same category. Every person has a different story. Let them struggle with dignity and when all is said and done let GOD be the judge of us all. Thanks.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
welcome back limpy… nice to see you are still obsessing over peoples s** habits… have fun with that
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this
Hard40, who gives a F**k about your “bible”?
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
Wow, Heather, I just read your respons to me… And, well… I’m not even sure where to begin…
I’ll just sum it up this way — You didn’t say anything about the Devil I haven’t heard a million times. As I have indicated already, I do not share your beliefs. You might as well have threatened me that Santa would just skip my house ‘cuz I’ve been such a naughty boy. If you want to know why non-Christians sometimes make fun of Christians, just look back at what you wrote to me, Sweetie. Your response was just dripping with desperate, unintentionally comical levels of self-reinforcement.
By sct
August 15, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this
and of course the obvious HARD40…….He who is without sin throw the first stone……Oh wait the new born again interpertation is “he who is without sin throw the first stone, unless he is a filthy Homo”, Jesus said.
By JB
August 15, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
Augustine, have they found the gene that makes you straight? No? Well how can that be? You would have us believe that homosexuality is learned. Well what about those people who had a completely “normal” childhood, straight parents, no abuse, no exposure to alternate lifestyles, that always knew something wasn’t right, something was out of place? The truth is, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You think you have to defend that position because that would be the only way religious people could maintain their stance against homosexuality.
Where in those research notes do they show where god exists? Oh wait, they haven’t proven that either.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
HARD40 you are the most ignorant of all. “All homosexual acts do is spread disease and death” what is that? do you not realize that AIDS is a disease that ANYONE can get?in fact AIDS and HIV are most prominent in black people. think about all those thousands of poor children in Africa dying everyday because it. children that recieved the disease just by being born. any person can spread an STD, not just gay people. maybe you should get your facts right before you come in here bashing gay people. and btw why do you have to call people homos? that is the kind of word only a homophobe would use.
By Ben
August 15, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this
Hard40 - I am awake, and unlike you, my counsciousness is not clouded by the pipe that you are smoking. I haven’t read the Bible, and could careless what your book says about anything - until I can read the original scrolls, I guess I’ll just leave it off of my to read list.
The Bible also says, thou shalt not kill, so the hypocracy you just suggested about stoning homosexuals gives further reason for my doubt. Not that I consider you a spokeman for Christianity. You are just further proof of the ignorance bringing down christianity.
And if the main purpose of sex is reproduce, then we are all going to hell my friend. And your girlfriend is first in line for swallowing.
By JB
August 15, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Your wasting your time Raylene, trying to talk to HARD40. He’s a fanatic. He thinks gay people should be stoned. Sounds a lot like Islamic fundamentalist propaganda to me. “The infidel must die.” These people need to take a look in the mirror. They’re one step away from strapping a bomb to their chest and stepping on a bus full of gay people or an abortion clinic. Oh wait, they’ve already bombed those. These people are dangerous because they think there is life after death. You can’t reason with someone like that. If heaven is so great, why don’t you just step into traffic and get there quicker? Then the rest of us can enjoy the one life we got in peace.
Take your disgusting potty mouth elsewhere Eric Robert HARD40!!
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
yeah Hard40…maybe if you are a dumb animal the only purpose of sex is to reproduce…most of us on two legs, gay and straight, enjoy sex for a number of reasons. The real scourge of the earth are dumb-a* morons like you that are able to breed.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
HARD40, I think you just might be a troll, am I right? If not, you are not helping anything by posting something of that nature. That sort of mentality is not of the Lord. You need to go removed some logs then get back to the splinters these guys are dealing with.
By Faizah
August 15, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
All, There is no evil nor good in anybody except for what you feel inside. I am a straight woman choosing to live a gay lifestyle because I am sick and tired of ignorant bigoted heterosexuals who run around ‘judging’ others and condeming others unless you believe in Jesus and repent and change your ways. I do not care for a God that hates, I do not care to be a part of a society that thinks they have the right to judge nor do I care for a religion that condemns you unless you are straight and conservative. I have been a minority all my life and there is NOTHING the church can offer to make me want to be a part of it. Good and evil resides in all of us and at the end of the day nothing really matters but the good you’ve shared with others - no matter what it was. We all die in the end and no, I do not care if your GOD condemns me. If you ask me, he left a long time ago after he’s seen how we continue to be stupid, selfish, greedy and ruthless and that we are all beyond help. Live your life how you want. Stay honest to yourself, be good to others and make happy memories. Lastly, learn to think outside the box so that you can make up your own mind.
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
I see, maybe hard40 was molested by his “crazy” uncle when he was just a mere tot, and that’s why he rants and raves with such ignorance….poor thing! Hard40, now you’re a scourge!!
By Heather
August 15, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
Whatever Ryan, you might understand one day. Then again you might just be lucky enough not to ever need to. I wish you well.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
I think Hard40 just needs a hug. Many people who hate gay people this much has a little gay person inside so they insult and insult to make it stay inside, but eventually he/she will come busting out singing “We are the champions” :-)
By raylene
August 15, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
while that comment was directed to him, i was hoping that everyone on here would read it and realize some things. there is nothing wrong with being gay. but i was raised in such a way that i see other people as humans. i dont judge them by what color they are or what religion or their sexual preference. first off, you cant always tell if a person is gay or not by looking or even talking to them. case in point…Ellen. anyone who’s ever watched the sitcom before she came out(in real life and on the show)would not think any thing about it. but her coming out shocked the nation. but even now watching her talk show, if i didnt know she was gay, i would not just assume that she was. some people act like they are ok with gay people, until they find out that their best friend or family member is. then their attitudes change completely.”its ok” until its someone close to them.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
JD,
I stay out of public restrooms also, but that was a good come back…which I probably deserved. Sorry about the crackhouse comment.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
Adrien… I think they may also sing “I Will Survive”
By Jack
August 15, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
What a stupid subject for the week. Do they want to require gay folks to try counceling to “cure” them? I don’t think it’s a choice made by the individual and all the talking in the world will not change it. Why fix what isn’t broke?
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
I think Hard40 needs a little WD40….
By raylene
August 15, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
lol adrien. so true…
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Raylene, you must have some homos in your family, or mabye your d**. Why do you waste your time defending deviant sexual acts? You are so PC (politically correct). That’s why Americans can never have an honest discussion about the epidemic of AIDS in this country. In New York state, there are 80,000 people infected with the Aids virus. Just recently a new strain of Aids was found in New York City. If you get this new strain of AIDS you will certainly die. It does’nt suprise me it was found in a homo. Homos always get insane with anger when you tell them how deviant their lifestyle is.Homos never stop to think that their deviant lifestyle is their worst enemy.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Tim you’re right. How can I forget the #1 Karioke song in the nation (LOL). I like the Luther Vandross song “Any Love” cause what he is saying is that there is all kinds of love. Is there ever anything wrong with loving someone truly with great devotion. I think not.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
If you get this new strain of AIDS you will certainly die
I thought everyone was going to ‘certainly die’? oh and fyi… that strain is now being successfully treated as well
Adrien… amen :)
By sct
August 15, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
I think what we need is a kind of double blind study.
Using the techniques of the therapy used in the case of Karen’s 2 ex-gay friends.
The first will be a group of homosexuals that are converted to straight.
The second will be a group of straight people that, using the same techniques of the gay-to-straight conversion are turned into homosexuals.
Now don’t worry straight people, using the same technique we will change you back later.
Any volunteers? This could settle the issue once and for all! Its all for science.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Let’s get this straight, I don’t like male homosexuals. But get me two blonds with big hooters, I’m right there.
By lozen
August 15, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
Ryan, your 10:01 post was right on!
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Hard40, why do u focus on AIDS so much? Do you not realize that there are about 10,0000 other diseases that kill that have nothing to do with homoseuxality. We did not create AIDS, but we don’t blame straight people for Cancer, Sickle Cell Anemia,Grave, Parkinsons, etc…. You are really, truly ignorant. This is what hateful people like you do all the time. You focus on one thing and rant about it your entire life. Just like back in the day when some white people believed that blacks carried disease and had tails. You sound like the new millinium version of that person. If you want to help with AIDS then call the CDC and find out what you can do. Yeling about homosexuals is not helping that cause and by the way there are a whole lot of STD’s out there. Read a book.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
I am happily married to a man, but thats not the point. and yes my mom’s uncle was gay. but mostly some of my best friends are gay. if you happened to read my earlier post. i was in the GAY-STRAIGHT ALLIANCE(GSA)in high school. if there are 80,000 people in New York infected with the AIDS virus, are you trying to tell me that they are all gay? ignorance once again.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
I would volunteer. I could do Mike Vick with a couple of margaritas in me.
By david
August 15, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
and woman was created from adam’s rib right, and is responsible for the downfall of man. wake up shaunti, you are clueless. i believe the APA has actually done some work on the great psychic damage that is done in the so called conversion therapies. perhaps there are people out there who have been bludgeoned with hate and shame who have finally said, “ok, change me”, i am sure there are, but, i doubt very much there are many so called successful or real transitions. probably only as many as the likely millions of deeply closeted individuals living their lives as lies and in shame and acting out their fantasies only in secret. it is the mindset that teaches “you are wrong, you are sick, you are dirty and you are a freak of nature” that results in the unfortunate psychosis tossed around cavalierly by the evang-o-matics.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
Hard40 that is the most hypocritcal statement ever uttered. So, females who are attractive and make your little pecker stand up is fine, but males must be stoned to death??? hmmm. I certainly hope you have ZERO children. God help us all!!!
By David
August 15, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this
Give HARD40 some credit. He obviously just harnessed the power of making a post back in 1984 that somehow magically appeared all these years later. Not sure about his mullet.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this
limpy you wouldn’t know what to do with one blonde with ‘big hooters’ much less two of them
By Jd
August 15, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this
Me neither Heather, I lived like a rock star for 20 + yrs. I thought I had all the answers and knew what it really meant to live and live abundantly, but when god humbled me I saw the true face of depravity and degradation. And don’t be fooled it’s not the gays, or the druggies, or the Jews, or even the merchants of death that seek to destroy you. Its the restless spirit that drives you to lash out against your enemies. It’s the malignant jealous tumor that grows in your soul seeking to consume your entire being. It’s the reason why sin feels so good. Our true nature is evil. It’s the reason a complete strange will hurl insults at you on the internet. Although we may stumble and our road ahead difficult, the power you seek to comfort you is readily available. Cause once you focus on him he will focus on you. At a bat of his eye he will stomp your enemies down. Now when I see people from my past lifestyle they look upon me with contempt and ridicule. They joke about my lack of a car, I laugh and say I’ll ride Marta. They call me poor cause I have to go to a job and work for a living, but I’m blessed cause now my mother can look me in the face and not feel shame. If you tell me that what this little Earth has to offer me is all I have to live for, then certainly let me die, but what I live for no man can make, and nobody can take from me.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
David that was hilarious and sadly true lol
By Heather
August 15, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
HARD40, what other names do you post under? I think you are just trying to get attention and aggravate everyone.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this
It’s OK
By Renee
August 15, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
I am a 33 year old black lesbian. I have heard that I am going to hell among other things. The same people that speak on my homosexuality are people that practice fornication and other sins. The last time I checked, everyone sins and falls short of the glory of God. Man puts a “priority” on sins. All sins are the same and judged the same. And who are gay people bothering. We don’t try to convert anyone, we don’t harass straight people on what they can and cannot do. People want to hide behind religion when upholding the laws by saying its not right, its not normal, it’s against God. Let me and my God deal with our issues and you deal with your own. People get too caught up with what other people do. Clean up your own dirt first, then speak your opinion. Unless I am infringing on your personal LIFE, LIBERTY or FREEDOM then it should be NONE of your concern
By Jack
August 15, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Would counceling turn a straight person into a gay person?
By sct
August 15, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Good point David, I keep thinking of HARD40 staring out his window petrified that one of them “gay recruiters” is gonna knock on his door and try to turn him gay.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
Amen Renee
By sct
August 15, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Hey jd, what are your sins?
By Heather
August 15, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
jd, you seem to be where I am. I must say there are not many people I have found who I can say that about.
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this
Heather [and the similar parties who project their religion onto everybody else],
I do think that having your beliefs must feel comforting on a certain level — to know that the ‘bad guys’ get punished forever and the ‘good guys’ get a permanent reward. I do not doubt that there is psychological comfort in that for those who need it.
However, it just doesn’t make sense to me…
Without God, there are no moral absolutes, so sin exists only because God has declared certain things to be sins. God gave mankind free will, which mankind abused by violating the rules God set, thereby ‘sinning.’ In order for God to forgive man of violating the rules that exist only because God has willed them to exist, God sends himself — in the form of his own son — to meet mankind so that mankind will then kill the son. By killing the son portion of the three-part God, God is appeased and forgives man of violating his rules as long as they accept that the man sent to Earth to be killed by mankind was in fact the son. [And of course, the life of the son is a HUGE sacrifice, even though he got up, left the tomb, and went around chatting up his friends shortly thereafter.]
And this is ‘The Greatest Story Ever Told’? I’ve seen B-movies with fewer plot holes. But, of course, the fact that I would even dare to think about it rationally is just proof that my mind is controlled by Satan.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this
No more than yours
By lozen
August 15, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
Hi Heather, You say most of the gay people you know have engaged in nonmonogamous and risky sexual behaviors. Gee, most of the straight people I’ve known throughout my 60+ years engaged in nonmonogamous, extra-marital and risky sexual behaviors. I guess people are just people whether they’re straight or gay!
By raylene
August 15, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this
I am just trying to figure out why people are still so ignorant after all these years. people are going to live their lives how they want to. get off it
By lozen
August 15, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
Goodlookingandstraight, When is your stand up routine happening? “Gotta love that religion!” LMAO!
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this
Heather, I am not a troll. I’m a 46 year old handsome white male, well-educated, affluent, well-traveled, may i go on? You would love to date a man like me. I am from San Diego, so you cannot accuse me of being an illiterate redneck with an axe to grind. Alot people feel exactly the way i do they just don’t have the courage to say it. No, I’m not a bible banger. I can’t tell you the last time i went to church, but i do know that homosexualtiy is not a viable lifestyle. It’s not normal, natural, or socially acceptable. Homosexuality does’nt exists in the animal kingdom. Human beings rationalize all sorts of immoral, deviant sexual behaviors.It does’nt make it right. Homos are such a powerful politcal force in this country that they berate others who are critical of their nasty lifestyle. Apparently, Heather, little people like you have been brainwashed to believe homosexuality is perfectly normal and has no repercussions in the real world. Heather, you are sadly mistaken. All you dickwatchers (homos) on the board use tampons to hold your stool!! (laughing)
One of my doctor friends from Florida, called me a couple of days ago and told me about a homo who had a gerbil stuck up his but, another homo took a glass coke bottle and stuck it up his a*. I guess he was suicidal. Another homos came into the emergency room violently ill, because his stomach was filled with another man’s semen.
You homos definitely have problems of your own. (laughing.)Who are homos to be critical of anyone? They shuold be ashamed of their nasty perverted ways.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
Insulting the bible is just as bad as what Hard40 says about the gays. The bible is truth to many people. So, the key is for all of us to respect each other and to love each other cause life is hard as hell. I don’t need one single, solitary thing to make it any harder.
By sct
August 15, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
Heather , you too. What are your sins, surely you wouldn’t mind us judging your sins for a while?
No one is perfect except Jesus, right. Well if you christians think you have a right judging other peoples sins, surely its only right that we can judge yours, right?
Name some.
By Renee
August 15, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
With your language HARD40 you sound like a fine, upstanding man, whom anyone would LOVE to date. You seem to be obsessed with stories of homosexuals. Any reason why?
By Faizah
August 15, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
Hard40 - too bad all the travelling didn’t help open your mind any. And maybe you can buy some personality with the ‘affluence’ that you possess.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
“well educated”… hahahahaha… that is the funniest thing you have said to date limpy… and going to Disney and riding “It’s a small world” does not count as being “well traveled”
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Renee, the black lesbian i have compassion for you. You are probably a lesbian because most black men are in prison, unemployed, physically abusive, and awful marriage material. Black men are absent fathers and lousy providers. That is a valid reason to become a lesbian. I don’t have a bone to pick with lesbians anyway.Most lesbians want to be in committed, loving relationships.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Hey Hard40 I know I shouldn’t talk about all my crazy god stuff but what your saying is actually repulsive, not that you don’t have a right to say it but the verbal illustrations are alittle over the top please use some tact and show alittle class.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Sct, how long you got?
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Hard40, what female would even want you anyway? Have you ever been with anyone besides your uncle? Sorry folks, don’t mean to lower myself to his level..
By Tim
August 15, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Another homos came into the emergency room violently ill, because his stomach was filled with another man’s semen
could you please get a new urban legen to spread… that one has been played out
By sct
August 15, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this
Heather, you don’t need to list all of your sins if they are that many. Just enough to let us judge if your going to hell or not.
By Argy
August 15, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Homosexuality doesn’t exist in the animal kingdom? I suppose sheep and bonobos aren’t animals then. Highly educated my a*, though I guess I can appreciate the Mr. Slave reference.
By Questions
August 15, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
was hard40 in the joint for a few? might explain the anti- attitude.
as well as his primitive remark to Renee
By Ryan
August 15, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Adrien,
The Bible is a literary work that is open to criticism. It endorses slavery, death for gay people, and the subjugation of women, and, as I pointed out, the overall premise of it seems nonsensical to me.
If someone holds it up to me as an authority by which I should live my life, as Heather did, I shall shoot it down.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
HARD40 you are a dumba. i have never heard of such ignorance in my life. how is it perverted? just because you choose not to live your life that way doesn’t make it wrong. by the way, for a 46 yr old man who isn’t an “illiterate redneck”, you sure are stupid. can i point out that its “doesn’t” not does’nt. you may not be a troll, but you certainly are the most ignorant person any one can meet. and about those “homos” who put things in their as, have you ever watched Jacka**? those idiots aren’t gay and one of them stuck a hot wheel in a condom and put it up their butt. so again, that has nothing to do with being gay.
By Ben
August 15, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Hard40 - shouldn’t romper room be ending soon. Time to put your toys away and get your graham cracker snack.
By Renee
August 15, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
HARD40 - I have no words for you, some people are best left ignored. Having you on my side now makes me feel really slimy. That reason has nothing to do with my sexual preference. I have no problem with black men, a black man is my father, my brother, my friends.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
Hard40, I think a black woman would rather do themselves if all the men on earth were in prison rather than date you. Yuck Pooey Yuck
By joe
August 15, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
Carol, your god is powerless.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
lozen, I must say that most of the straight people I know are not quite as risky as the gay people I know. This is one of the things that has frustrated me for a long time. When I was involved with my ex-partner, I fought hard for gay rights. But many of my friends were more interested in getting laid and getting drunk than they were in getting married or helping other gay people fight for gay marriage. Many of my friends were drugged up and hung over most of the time. They couldn’t make it to the Pride Parade because they were too hungover from the night before. I looked around and saw what I was fighting for and who I was fighting for and I lost heart for the fight. Until gay people are willing to get up out of the gutter, clean themselves off, live a healthier lifestyle, and work together, they will not have the acceptance they want from society.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
now here we go with racist stero-types. i guess my husband should be in jail too because he is Mexican. oh and i guess he hits me all the time too. Hard40 you need to get over yourself.
By Brian Curtis
August 15, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
“Heather, I believe that you mean well, but you’re on the wrong path. You’re still stuck in a misguided, superstitious little cell of your own making. I used to be like you, but then I discovered a better way. I only hope some day you’ll see the truth and step up to join us Enlightened folks who know the Truth.”
Now, Heather: Did that statement strike you as arrogant or condescending? Do you feel inspired? loved? motivated to find out more?
Well, that’s how many of your statements come across. You might want to tone down the contempt if you truly want people to listen to your words.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this
I agree Ryan, but my point is if we insult them for believing in the word of GOD and living by it, we are no better than them saying we are destined for hell and are the scourge of the earth. It is t** for tat. As far as Hard40 is concerned, I am certain he just likes attention and he can probably get it quicker from us gay folk than he can his straight counterparts. They probably don’t even converse with him at all. I encounter people like him in gay chat rooms. They know they will get attention by spouting hate so they do it every night. All I can say is I am sorry his mother didn’t give him any attention as a child and took her breast away from his mouth too soon.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
Renee, if you don’t have any problems with black men why are’nt you happily married? Most women want to be happily married with children. You have neither.
By Mike Trammell
August 15, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
The Law of Attraction: Two north Pole magnets repel each other. Two south pole magnets repel each other. A north pole and south pole magnet attracts one another.Homsexuality is just plain wrong,When a murderer comes to Christ for forgiveness he must forsake murdering, when a homosexual comes for forgiveness he must forsake homosexuality.The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
By Zack
August 15, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
Sexual orientations can change, just like people can change. I’m not referring to people in general but instead individuals. In other words, just because someone is a friend of mine in 2001, that doesn’t mean he’ll still be a friend in 2002.
Yes, though, sexual orientations can change. There’s a myth out there that they can’t, and as usual, it catches on like wildfire, as many would much rather blame their actions on genetics as opposed to taking personal responsibility.
However, Christian counseling isn’t really Christian. The methods employed are secular, and just because the word “Christian” is used doesn’t mean the techniques are. For example, there’s no such thing as Christian heavy metal music; the term “Christian” there is meaningless.
We only can change through Christ and our belief on what He did at the cross. This, unfortunately, is being ignored by the Church, as self-help propaganda is being substituted as some sort of answer. It’s sad, extremely sad, that truth is being ignored while lies and propaganda—that which makes the listener feel good—is taught in exchange. The Bible is clear that Christians are the salt of the earth. However, many tragically are turning away from that and are doing what they can to blend in with the world.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Lozen if Martin Luther King had given up simply because he couldnt get black people to stand up for themselves, we would be a really messed up people in the 21st century. If u cared about this cause u should not stray just because your gay friends liked getting drunk and didnt care about the fight for human rights. Remember, U have to be smaller than what u hide behind. Dont use them as an excuse to abandon a cause u care about.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this
Heather obviously you were hanging out with a different group of people… my gay friends are successful, drug-free, and able to hold their liquor (which enables them to attend Pride and any other event they please)… you have already said that you participated in high risk sexual behaviors so it is not a big surprise that the people around you would participate in those same acts… how arrogant of you to judge other gay people from your very limited experiences
By Karen
August 15, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this
Response to Sct: My friends were so busy telling me about their marriages and children that they didn’t go into any details about the counseling they received. If people are supposed to be free to be what they want, what’s wrong with my friends making the choice to go through counseling and live a life consistent with their beliefs? Don’t they have the right to make decisions for themselves about how they want to live? And if they wanted to tell you that they saw a great movie or found a great restaurant, you wouldn’t mind, but if they want to tell you that something changed in their lives for the better, something that gives them great joy, that’s pushing their beliefs on other people? “Other people” should be a little more secure in their own positions; it helps with being tolerant of different views. For the record, one can be tolerant of views with which one vehemently disagrees, with a little effort.
I thought the question under discussion was whether or not homosexual lifestyles could be changed through Christian counseling. Since former homosexuals claim that their lifestyles have been altered as a result of Christian counseling, I don’t see that there’s much to debate on that point. If you want to debate whether homosexuals have the right to change their lifestyles through Christian counseling, I’ll have to come down on the side of the homosexuals. They most certainly have the right to choose to seek or forego counseling, to change their lifestyle or not. If you want to debate whether Christians have a right to believe what the Bible teaches about homosexuality, I’m with the Christians on that one. If we’re debating whether you (or anyone else) has a right to disagree with what Christians believe, I’m on your side. You have a right to disagree.
It would be nice if we could somehow find a way to disagree with less vitriol.
By Renee
August 15, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Please, accept me Heather, please. You seem to be so righteous now, if only I could be more like you. The only way you can see who is in the gutter is if you are in it yourself.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Adrien… I think you are mistaken… Heather is the one who said that not lozen… mama would never say something like that would you ma ;)
By Questions
August 15, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
y’all know a whole bunch of STRAIGHT people just like the ones Heather described?
must make heteros wacked-out sinners.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
Adriene for your information i’m not attracted to black women.What are rambling about? I would never date a black woman. Your just talking out of your a*, so shutup.
By Renee
August 15, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry, you must know me HARD40. Otherwise you wouldn’t make statements about what I do or don’t have with no prior knowledge of me. But since you are of no substance of my life, I do not have to explain myself to the likes of you.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Hard40 who says u have to be married to be happy? I’m going to give u the attention u need baby. Come to mommie. U need a lot of love baby. BTW, I am extremely happy and always have been. Maybe that is what u lack. Anytime a person NEEDS to insult anyone or any group that much, that is a miserable human being hoping to make someone else feel what they feel if only for a moment. Well, guess what Hard, I will never feel what u feel which is misery. I have 44dd for u to suck on if u want your childhood back for a moment.
By Jd
August 15, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
The only time you should look down on someone is when your helping the up.
By sct
August 15, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this
Mike Trammell, would you mind listing a few of your sins?
We want to judge you.
And do you agree that people that divorce should be kicked out of churches? Maybe a constitutional amendment forbiding divorce. Is getting a divorce even though you know doing it is against the bible, and a consious sin like homosexuality ok? A constitutional amendment forbiding prayer in public? (which Jesus was very much against). Is throwing the first stone allowed in your bible? What about judging others?
Is pick and choose religion ok?
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Im sorry I guess I Was wrong. I should have directed that to Heather. Pls accept my apology Lozen.
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
Hard40, you are obviously obsessed with homosexuality. Tell everyone about your experiences…With your uncle? In prison? With your son?? Neighbor’s son? Just what the h*ll is exactly wrong with you anyway? You’re a sad excuse for a human, but then again someone has to be one.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
i have to agree that it’s not just gay people who act like the people that Heather described. but i think that all she was trying to say is that those are the type of gay people she was hanging with and now she isnt.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Hard40, I am glad to hear that u are not attracted to us. Now we know that NO black woman will have to suffer.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Leave Heather alone. She sounds like good marriage material. :)
By Heather
August 15, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Sexual orientations can change. I am no longer attracted to women. I had my first sexual experience with another girl when I was 10 years old. I was into girls my entire life. When I was married to a man, I dreamed about women. Nothing could change it, until I started reading the Bible. I didn’t go to church. I wasn’t kidnapped and forced into therapy. I just started believing in Jesus. I began to think more about Jesus and less about sex. I didn’t pray to Jesus to make me straight, I didn’t want to be straight, I just wanted to love Jesus. As my relationship with Him grew, my sexual issues healed. I am no longer attracted to women. I am no longer attracted to dangerous men. I no longer view sex the same way at all. This is not something a Christian counselor did for me. It is not something a church did for me. It is not something the Bible did for me. This is something the Lord did for me, because He loves me and I asked to be able to love Him. If that statement sounds condescending, well I’m sorry you feel that way. It is just the truth.
By joe
August 15, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Jd, did you know Dorothy Parker named her canary “ONAN” because he spilled his seed on the floor?
By Randy
August 15, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
All these comments and the topic this week remind my of what my brother said to me years ago, after I hadn’t been going to church for several years. I asked him why wouldn’t everyone want what our creator will give them, namely eternal life?? He said most people don’t want to give up their sin. They don’t want to stop drinking to excess, cheating on their wife, homosexuality etc. This is exactly correct, they feel that they are giving up something to be a follower of Christ. They really don’t understand, it’s so much better on this side. It’s peaceful, it’s comfortable, it’s better in every way. But some people don’t know that they don’t know.
By Eiri
August 15, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
Karen,
I personally question the degree that these individuals were actually gay, as opposed to just being sexually confused. But if they entered into this counseling of their own free will and it helped them find some peace and happiness, then more power to them.
But the supporters of this “therapy” don’t just stop there…they present these people, (many that become ex-ex-gays) as proof that sexual orientation can and should be changed for all of us and that’s just BS.
Nothing galls me more than for some confused wretch that can’t handle the realities of his or her life, whose given into religious pressure, to come to me and say “live by my example…I changed…so should you”.
And anyone that says that’s not the motivation of the “ex-gay” movement is just fooling themselves.
By Ross
August 15, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Interesting topic. As a gay man, I have lots to say about the subject. Coming from a religious, conservative family, my coming out was a trying time. My family was supportive and loving, but really wanted to explore all avenues. More importantly, they wanted me to go to Christian counseling. I agreed and they got the name of a counselor at a local southern baptist church in the Atlanta suburbs and I made an appointment.
On my first visit, after introductions, the doc basically asked me what was wrong and what the reason for my visit was? With little experience, it was difficult for me but I said, rather timidly, “I’m gay”. After years of being around people like Shaunti, the verbalization was difficult, as had been the years it took me to internally admit it to myself. His response was, “SO”? I was amazed.
Fortunately for me, this man had done his graduate program, through a seminary, in a gay area of a large southern city. He had actual experience counseling gay and lesbians. Unfortunately for my folks, he didn’t try to get me to convert. Instead, he set up family therapy so I could talk with my parents about my feelings and they could share theirs and he could help forward the dialogue. It was difficult for all involved, but we actually got to know each other better and found a better understanding of what each other felt. My parents’ fears and anxieties were discussed, as well as my own. Christian counseling was GREAT for me!
My counselor even encouraged my parents to learn more about conversion therapy. They got in touch with organizations like Quest and Exxodus (one of which was lead by a guy, who had been reformed and then married and had children and was subsequently caught in a gay bar in DC - just ministering I’m sure). The guy who lead the group, an ex-gay, spoke openly with them. He wasn’t actually ex-gay, just not active. His desire for same-sex relationships were still as strong, he just decided to be celibate.
Anyway, christian counseling worked great for me and mine. Instead of changing me, it helped change the hearts and minds of my parents who just had no knowledge or exposure to gay people. Praise God, they were and are born again Christians who know the love of Jesus. Oh, I am one of those born again Christians folks too. I do believe in the Bible, but I still eat shellfish, I’ll shake a woman’s hand even if she is on her period, I don’t stone people who committ adultery, and I do think women can have leadership positions in the church.
Another note - for all of Shaunti’s writings about Christianity and the goodness of God fearing people - I haven’t attended church in a really long time because of her. I have always gone to church and have attended numerous congregations throughout the Atlanta metro area. However, since Shaunti spoke last year at the church I was attending in the northern suburbs, I haven’t been back. Allowing someone with her bias and bigotry to have a platform where she could damage so many new Christians or people searching for the truth really scared me. I hope to go back one day, but I will really have to find a place that investigates their speakers’ backgrounds. So, instead of turning people toward the church, just know that you have turned one regular attender away.
But, I’m still a Christian and maybe my home in glory will be right beside some of yours! It’ll be nice to meet you neighbor!
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
Heather, first of all u were bi-sexual by definition if u could be with a man and a woman sexually with pleasure. So, please don’t give us the ex-homosexual speech. Just say u were blind and now u see hallelujah, but my dear, U WERE BI!!!
By Scalia
August 15, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this
Adrien, you wouldn’t do Mike Vick? Have you seen the badookaduke on him? In the words of the cheerleading coach in “Bring it On”: “That thing needs its on website.”
By sct
August 15, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this
karen, I asked you some serious questions. I never said they didn’t have the right to live the life they choose.
If someone claims to have been cured what were the methods?
Is it the James Dobson “shower with your son to butch him up therapy? Is it the gay man marry a gay women therapy. Is it just pretend to be straight and happy therapy? Is it the just ask god therapy?
its one thing to suggest that all you need is good christian therapy but not one of the christian therapy (or non-secular) advocates can say what this therapy is and if it REALLY works.
And no one has answered the question on if they are willing to marry an “ex-gay.”
Thats what this subject is really about.
Not one of the christians have commented on James Dobson shower therapy. WHY?
All I hear is “god hates gays, end of story”.
By Netbanker
August 15, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this
Stupid topic to keep people stupid!! Honestly…does this really affect our daily lives and struggles? If someone is that unhappy in their life then they should seek counseling to either 1) change their feelings, 2) change their environment, or 3) achieve acceptance regardless of the cause of despair.
Sure folks…let’s keep focusing on those god-awful gay people and what we can do to fix them since that they’re obviously the ones causing gas prices to go ever higher, wages to stagnate against rising inflation, the numbers of wounded in Iraq to surpass those of Vietnam in less than half the length of time, are keeping us from fixing SS or Medicare, have destroyed our science and technology leadership position in the world, have created a massive trade deficit with the rest of the world by demanding imported shoes and clothes, and lastly have become the new robber barons of industry by securing fabulous gold-lame parachutes while screwing the workers and stockholders.
Damn you sneeky gays for ruining the world for the rest of the population with all your secret power and yet still remaining the victim of discrimination and hatred from the majority. I’ll even bet that Saddam and Osama are gay lovers and that’s why they’re bent on the destruction of (anti-gay) America.
By Renee
August 15, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Heather, my point is, if that is working for YOU, then that is great for you and I wish you the best. But as a Christian, like you refer to yourself, you should not look down to nor judge anyone else. And if you were having sexual relations with a girl at 10 that had nothing to do with being gay, that is another totally different issue. Nobody should be having a sexual experience at 10.
By Randy
August 15, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Heather that is a great testimony, however we must remember that we cannot argue anyone into heaven. God is a spiritual experience that can be justified totally logically. But some people don’t want to hear it, because if Jesus is the way(and he is)they are not prepared for eternity and that probably scares them to death. It would me. All we can do is pray that they find Jesus in their own way and in their own time and are smart enough to realize a super opportunity when they are presented with one.
By Mike Trammell
August 15, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this
sct My sin resume is extenstive.I’m guilty of them all, expect for the ONLY one that will send a person to hell,and that one is denying, that Jesus is only way to salvation by belief in Him and repenting of those sins.Check it out, it will change your life, if your sincere.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
While Mike Vick may be attractive to some on this site, I find the comments about him DIGUSTING. In the words of Adrien, “Yuck Pooey Yuck”
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this
No, scalia, I said I WOULD do MIKE VICK and I dont do men, but it made a ncie joke. I thought lol.
By WF
August 15, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
AS A GAY MAN I KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO CHOICE, THIS IS HOW I WAS BORN AND WHO I AM SUPPOSED TO BE. CHRISTIANITY IS A CHOICE, THE HATRED OF THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT IS A CHOICE. BUDDHISM IS FAR MORE PREVELANT IN THE WORLD. CAN WE SAVE A CHRISTIAN BY CONVERTING THEM TO BUDDHISM? WORRY ABOUT FEEDING THE HUNGRY AND COMFORTING THE SICK INSTEAD OF SPREADING YOUR VAILED HATE.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
Adriene it is a well-known fact that women don’t think they have accomplished anything worthwhile unless they are happily married with children. Adreine,I can see you have failed in that department. Renee and Adreine should give serious thought to exploring anger management therapy. You two are unfulfilled, angry with the entire world because you have to deal with your shiftless, worthless black men. Don’t take it out on me.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
People will choose how they live their lives. plain and simple. Some people will be attracted to the same sex and choose not to do anything about it, choose not to let anyone know that they are gay. and some people will act on it and then later choose not to. but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have changed. for some people it does. most likely bi-sexuals, who have decided that they like the opposite sex better. that is just my opinion btw, i don’t want to be jumped on for this, but alot of people hide what they don’t want others to know, its all about secrets.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
Soory spelling police, I meant DISGUSTING.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
Sct and Netbanker hit the nail on the head. thanks. I wish I could lower gas prices. Hell, I own an SUV :-(!!!
By Tim
August 15, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Jack I have to agree with you on that one… that is really something I didn’t need to know
not to mention you need to make sure Mr. Vick is taking his valtrex
Ross… nice to hear that you had a positive experience during counseling
By Tim
August 15, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
‘well educated’… hahahahaha… that one is still making me laugh… good times good times
By Renee
August 15, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
HARD40, your words are so wise. Please, enlighten us some more. You are so intelligent, I don’t think my brain can keep up..hahaha
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Hard4o u are hilarious. U should be on comedy central. a miserable man calling 2 black happy lesbians miserable. what a funny joke. I have not failed in anything in my life and if u knew me, which u don, (THANK GOD), u would know that my life is a reflection of who I am. Happy, content and striving for even better every single day. I wish u peace and love and I hope u find it. Seriously. I feel really bad for u. I wish I could hug u right now and find out what is eating away at u cause something is truly killing u inside.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
P.S. hard40 it is sad that u rely so haven’t made u happy at all. and athey never will. No statistics can tell u how a black woman is fullfilled or not. How ignorant is that notion?
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:01 PM | Link to this
P.S. hard40 it is sad that u rely so heavily on these so called facts and they havent made u happy at all. and they never will. No statistics can tell u how a black woman is fullfilled or not. How ignorant is that notion?
By Renee
August 15, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
SHHHHHH Everyone quiet….okay HARD40 is going to make yet another profound statement
By Argy
August 15, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this
Despite all the yelling, I think WF may have brought up an interesting subject. He suggests that Christianity is a choice, but I am not convinced. I know for myself that knowing what I know, I am incapable of being a Christian. I suspect Randy would say something similar, but rather that he couldn’t choose to be a non-Christian even if he for some reason wanted to. Our belief systems are formed at a very young age, and it’s extraordinarily difficult to change them.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
I think that Hard40 is not really a 46 yr old man, but a scared gay teenage boy. people who make comments like that are scared. scared of what others think, scared to disappoint their parents, scared to admit the truth. with all the people that are so hard on gay people i could see why it would be easy to follow along and pretend. a friend of mine was once like that. he was scared to come out, and so he pretended. he acted like gay people were gross, and that is was wrong. then he finally realized that it was ok to be gay, and he stopped pretending, and was himself. it doesn’t matter what other people think of you, as long as you are happy.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
LOL Renee. This man(hard40) has not said one intelligent thing today and he has the nerve to say others are unhappy? what laughter I have never experienced before. I wish all of u on here well and I hope that we all live our lives to the fullest because it is sooo short as I found out years ago when I suffered many deaths in my family. In one year I lost 4 relatives and it made me realize that if I must live the life I want to live and live it with joy and peace and I wish the for everyone cause it is hard sometimes to live in a cave and not get mauled by bats. :-)
By dg
August 15, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
If all it takes is religious faith and a desire to change why don’t all the so called “christians” on this list just convert to Islam or Buddhism?
All you have to do is want to change and make the commitment to change, right? They are both recognized, viable religions with large followings and ancient histories just like your religion you use to bolster your bigotry.
Let’s suppose you don’t change religion because you don’t see anything wrong with the one you currently worship. Also, let’s assume that the majority of you never researched any other religions. You have never studied anything seriously about them you just know what someone told you or what you “heard” from someone else. The majority of people that follow a religion do so because that is what those around them are doing.
Now, assume that society begins telling you that your beliefs are completely wrong and you are going to HELL unless you convert to the accepted religion. For arguments sake, let’s say you will go to hell unless you become a buddhist.
Doesn’t feel good to think about someone else dictating what your own personal choices and beliefs should be, does it?
It isn’t about religion or going to hell or right or wrong. It is about trying to force others to act like you and agree with you.
If no one is forcing gay people to change - they are free to change on their accord in any manner they see fit. The important thing is that no one else should FORCE anyone to conform to another’s beliefs based on fear and being ostracized based on that simple choice.
By sct
August 15, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
So Mike Trammell let me get this straight, if I accept Jesus Christ I can be gay and go to heaven right?
Just like someone that accepts Jesus can get a divorce right?
Both are conscientious sins, you know what your doing is a sin.
So both divorce and homosexuality are ok if you accept Jesus.
Why then are people that divorce allowed into churches but most don’t accept gays? After all we know that Jesus spoke out against divorce but not homosexuality.
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
Heather sounds like some stripper friends of mine- confused, loaded with issues, undirectional, desparate, insecure, a bit lonely, needy… She’s still Bi, though..
By Mike Trammell
August 15, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
Argy, How incapable do you have to be to ask Jesus to forgive you of all sin and belief, He is,who He says He is?
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
I dont claim christianity, but I do believe in GOD of Abraham. His rules are his rules. If we don’t want to abide by them, then we must accept that we are being disobident to that particular GOD, but if you choose not to believe in that GOD, then you must find your own spirtual path. I am never going to knock the bible, but I will say that I want to live this lifestyle and why apologize then be gay the next day and the day after that, etc…etc..etc.
By lozen
August 15, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
How apropos! Someone named Augustine who is a sex hater! Anybody else connect those dots?
By Renee
August 15, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
sct and dg, great comments. So true, so true.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this
All I know is MY God would not send a good human being to Hell just because they are gay.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
No Tommy, Heather is happy, content, motivated, secure, and above all she knows what she wants and how to get it. She is also willing to sacrifice to get what she wants.
By al
August 15, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Whether a choice or a biological urge is not of great importance to me. I am a moderate Southern Baptist minister, yes they still exist. Though I do not understand the choice of being gay or lesbian I do understand that Freedom of Choice allows them to be whatever they want to be. However, the argument above has more to do with whether a gay or lesbian can be cured. Shaunti hits the nail on the head when she says that a person can be “healed” if that person WANTS to be “healed.” I don’t necesarilly agree with the word “healed” though. If an alcoholic quits drinking that person is still an alcoholic, though now a dry alcoholic that needs to stay away from booze. An ex-chain-smoker is still addicted to tobacco, regardless of how long he/she has quit, I know that from my own experience. Can you “heal” a gay, or lesbian, from their actions? Only if they want to change their life style but keep in mind, they will always have that tendency to draw to the same sex.
By the way, the Bible never said that being a homosexual is doomed to hell. There are many homosexuals that are not active. It is the act of homosexuality that is spoken about in the Bible, but so are those that crawl in the bed with his neighbors wife. The same punishment holds for both. Also, the Bible does not speak out against lesbian activity, only speaks to the male. Live and let live. God loves us all.
Al
By Argy
August 15, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Mike,
I can ask all I want, but I’m not hearing the answer. I could easily pretend to be Christian, but I can’t just believe whatever I want. No matter how hard I try, I can’t believe the sky is green or astroturf is blue (unless I go to Boise).
I think dg posed a nice preemptive response to your post, as well. Could you just change your belief system if you felt like it?
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
True Raylene,….Hard40 sounds just like that….a scared gay little boy… is that true Hard40?
By Tes
August 15, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
Randy and Heather, Thank you both for maintaining your Christain character. I’ve read all the posts up to the hour and I must say, I hurt that there are those that deny the truth. However, this is all biblical. The Bible teaches us what we should expect in the last days. My question to all the non-believers of Christ. Would you rather live a life according to the WORD of God and die to find out that HE didn’t exist, Or live a life full of sin and self-pleasure, and die to realize that He does.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
Hard40 sounds like my Dad did.
By HARD40
August 15, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this
Adrien you are full of s**. There is no way you can believe in the “God of Abraham” and approve of homosexuality. Wakeup, you can’t selectively choose other passages of the bible and ignore other ones. It is made clear in the old testament that homosexuality is an abomination against God and those who indulge in it will surely go to hell. Think about that the next time your licking some women’s c**. That goes for Renee too. What do you d** get out of licking some women’s private part, that is nasty.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this
Thank you Tes. I love how you phrased that.
By raylene
August 15, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this
well apparently no one is getting my point. but nonetheless, i just have to say, that i love my son and i always will regardless of his sexual preference when he gets to that age. all humans are just that. humans why not leave it at that. who cares if your neighbor is gay/bi. do they effect you in anyway? i mean, what people choose to do in their own privacy is their business, no one else’s. its not like having to watch two dogs going at it in your front yard. now that is gross. but if something doesn’t effect you, just ignore it if it really bothers you that much.
By Mike Trammell
August 15, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
sct You can be anything (a gay,a murderer,rapist,member of KKK,Satanist,a republician,democrat,a drunk, dope addict etc.)and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.However just as a raw diamond needs grinding and polishing,the Lord soon begins to work on a convert to begin removing sinful behaviors from their lives.He also changes your “wanter” so that things that at one time you wanted and desired begin to disappear.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Tes,
Why is it that when a person is religious then they become so self righteous? All of a sudden u become GOd’s best friend. Do u not realize that your righteousness to GOD is as filthy rags? or do u even read your bible. God is not impressed with what u do in the flesh. he is ONLY interested in your spirtual growth. Your flesh is going to die period. If u want to feel important and special and make us feel lower than dirt, thats fine, but just know u are not impressing GOd by being better than everyone else in the flesh. Flesh is corrupt and faulty. Whether u be a sinner or a saint.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this
hard4o im not even going to comment on that nonsense. I know the word of God probably better than a priest but I choose to live this lifestyle so goodbye and have a nice day and i hope u get that hug u need. and by the way. Im sure u would eat pu**y too if there were a woman alive that would allow u to.
By Heather
August 15, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
HARD40, please don’t quote scripture and then talk foul. If you insist on being a foul trash mouth, that is your choose, but don’t pretend to know anything about God while you are doing it. Thanks.
By Jack
August 15, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this
I guess he isn’t into giving oral pleasure. Must be single.
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this
Hard40, you say “that is nasty”? Case closed, sister..
By Mike Trammell
August 15, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Argy, Thats just it.You don’t have to change your belief system to come to Christ. Nobody is asking you to pretend, belief me, we have enough of them already.If you mean business with Christ He will supernaturally change your beliefs and ways.Argy I tell you in love that a true Christian is about spreading Christ’s Love and Compassion not trying to force people to change. We as Christian’s can’t force anyone to do anything or change anyone’s mind. They are plenty of Christian trying to do it but they are putting the cart before the horse.
By Argy
August 15, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Tes,
I’d rather join a religion that rewards self-indulgence with an afterlife of joy exponentially proportional to the amount of pleasure I have during my lifetime. It exists, you know. Unfortunately, it requires me to believe in the omniscience of hermit crabs and that the world was created in The Great Cookie’s image. I’d love to join, but I just can’t force myself to take it seriously. Everyone else is welcome to try; as a matter of fact, I encourage it!
By Heather
August 15, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Adrien, I am not sure what you mean by God not being impressed with what we do in the flesh. You say He is only interested in our spiritual growth. How are you separating the two? You are a three dimensional being, mind, body, and spirit. All three must be in harmony for you to achieve growth of any kind.
And yes, self-righteousness is not pleasing to God, but righteousness is. Righteousness is illustrated by our actions while in the flesh. You cannot participate in sexual sins against your own flesh and achieve righteousness or spiritual growth.
By Tim
August 15, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
lol @ Jack
By Karen
August 15, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Sct, I thought I addressed your question about methods. I don’t know what “methods” were used. I’m guessing there was no torture or coercion involved, but I would be speaking from ignorance if I said any more than that (a practice I try to avoid).
I did not address your question about Dr. Dobson for the same reason. I can’t defend or refute someone else’s position on anything without looking at it first. In order to give you what you asked for, I spent the last twenty minutes looking at Dr. Dobson’s site and could not find the comment you quoted or paraphrased. I found one reference to “prehomosexual children” - which seems to me a questionable term - even if we are permitted to speak from a biased point of view, I think I would prefer a term like high-risk - but no reference to showering with a child. If you’d like to put the link to the original material up, I’ll check it out and tell you what I think.
By the way, bias is not inherently evil. I am biased against violence and in favor of civil discourse. I am biased against manipulation in interpersonal relationships and in favor of personal responsibility. Just like you, I am biased in favor of my own opinions. Sometimes I am willing to be persuaded on an issue and sometimes I am not. How about you?
By Questions
August 15, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
doesn’t the old testament also have prohibitions against pork and shell-fish?
that old-testament thing got so old long ago, more pick-and-choose of what old-testament desert-dwelling rules are relevant in 2005 America.
By lozen
August 15, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
Hard40, I think thou doth protest too much. We all know about that little gay boy inside you struggling to get out. Making comments about blonds with big hooters - just a smoke screen and we see thru your smoke darlin’.
By tes
August 15, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
No, Adrienne, I’m not better than you. God is my best-friend, so I hope the feeling is mutual between He and I. I Love you all, Ponder on my question. Choose your own path.
By Amh
August 15, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
Homosexuality is deviant behavior, and while the tremendous amount of denial that exists in the world for those that choose to practice this lifestyle, tends to outweigh basic instinct,moral values, and common sense, we cannot ignore the physical limitations of human anatomy. Two women together or two men together can only engage in sodomy, not sex. Now you can twist it however you want, but you need opposite genitalia to have sex. Homosexuality is an acquired taste, no male child is born with a built in atraction to fecal waste removal! I suggest that any two homosexual males that would like to be cured, simply need to experience each other having a bowel movement up close and personal(The fragrance, the sight, and the sound). You are guranteed to alter whatever deviant urges you had prior to then.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
thanks for the education Heather, but u didnt get the point. The bible that u claim to believe in states that u cannot please GOD in the flesh. Yes, u are suppose to live a christ like existence, but when u come face to face with GOD, it is not the deeds u committed or abstained from that is going to grant u access to the kingdom. It is the spiritual life u lead and the things u did in the spirit. there are going to be people who feed the needy, care for the elderly, preach the word that are going to be turned away from GOD, but I know the self-righteous really dont want to hear that since they think they are the only ones good enough to be ont he right hand of GOD. Get real.
By Tommy
August 15, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
I think we’ve all come to the conclusion what HARD40 likes…and it’s not on a woman!
By David
August 15, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
Tes, Pascal’s Wager needs to add a few more religions in there. The choices aren’t Christianty and atheism. You need to make sure that Islam and all the other religions aren’t true as well or you might end up begging at the feet of Mohammed one day.
Minister Al, what would you do if you were gay? Or your child? I think it’s easy to suggest what others do, but what if this was your own life? Do you think you’d live celibate and quash your sexual desires?
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
Tes, I dont have to ponder. I chose my path and if it changes int he future then so be it. we cannot make ourselves holy. PERIOD!! no matter how much u think u are. GOD has to do that. Ponder that awhile pls and I wish u well.
By Argy
August 15, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
You cannot participate in sexual sins against your own flesh and achieve righteousness or spiritual growth.
Heather,
I think that if you talk to Christian (active) homosexuals you might find that they are achieving spiritual growth. This may not have been possible in your personal relationship with God, but God may work with others in different ways.
I’m glad you’ve found happiness in your faith, and I encourage you to share your story with others, especially those who were feeling lost as you were. As a matter of fact, I think your duty as a Christian is to try and spread the word, no matter how much it will annoy many of us. However, I think you should concentrate on getting people to “open their hearts to Jesus” rather than condemning particular actions that may have obstructed your finding faith. The more understanding you are, the more people are likely to listen to the message.
By Adrien
August 15, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
Amh, Im sure u dont participate in any kind of deviant behavior. Must be nice to be perfect and have a throne waiting on u right next to GOD.
By Questions
August 15, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this
amh - so what about the heterosexual couples that engage in anl sx? 30 percent of American women like that.
By THETRUTH
August 15, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this
Tes, Basically, religion is a way to cover your bases? Don’t you think God would see through this hypocrisy - knowing you only belief because their might be a heaven? Religion is a way to control the behavior of the masses - and you are the perfect slave.
Randy - the reason its so peaceful is because you have given up control. You lack the courage to make you own decisions so God does it for you - no worries. Kind of like a dog who has been neutered.
By Questions
August 15, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this
looks like Hard40 would not be able to please most straight women, except the real boring ones maybe. not the bi-sexuals with 40DD/s that’s for sure.
dream on.
By lozen
August 15, 2005 05:18 PM | Link to this
Netbanker, I was so sorry to hear about the loss of your canine companion last week. I know how much it hurts to lose those loved ones who accept us so unconditionally and greet us each day with pure joy. Tim, you are right son; I would never say that.
By Antyler
August 16, 2005 07:09 AM | Link to this
What makes people gay? Read this
[http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/whatmakespeople_gay/]
By taboga
August 16, 2005 07:43 AM | Link to this
Didn’t miss much yesterday afternoon - same old whining and moaning…
In a few years all you rubes out here will be supporting Pedophilia.
All it will take is a few nut-case academia types to get it started. They’ll use the same template:
“It’s an act of love. Why should people be condemned for expressing love to a child - when people are awarded medals for killing other human beings?”
“Studies have shown (the infamous: studies) that a physical expression of love towards a child may actually benefit a child emotionally.” They’ll cite a number of nonsensical things and claim they are: “well documented”.
They’ll then go on to tell: “Long ago, children used to marry as early as the age of twelve and have children at age 13 or 14 - so this is really nothing new…”
We’ll then be told: “If parents of under-age children consent to their children having sex with adults - who is society to tell them how to raise their children?”
We’ll also hear: “There is scientifc proof which dates back to early man having sex with children and that it is a natural instinct of man. The only reason it is considered taboo today is because of the religious influence on civilization.”
…On and on it will go.
And you rubes out here who let other people do your thinking for you — will be out here on the message boards DEMANDING that Pedophiles be treated with respect! And quite naturally - cursing the Christians for opposing Pedophilia.
By Brian Curtis
August 16, 2005 08:05 AM | Link to this
Heather: You can see why your Christian message has so much trouble getting through, can’t you? Because so many other self-professed “christians” are shouting at the top of their lungs about how much they hate everyone who doesn’t do as they say.
On this forum alone, you’ve got
*Hard40, an ignorant, foul-mouthed misogynist who claims to know the Bible backwards and forwards;
*Randy the crusader, shaking his finger and tut-tutting anyone who “fears the obvious TRUTH” that Christians are superior to everyone else;
*Zack the bomb-thrower who salivates at the thought of murdering anyone pro-choice and ramming his faith down everyone’s throat (by law if possible, by lynching if necessary)
*and taboga, the poster-child for cowardice and stupidity, who can’t even form a cogent argument in between all his childish name-calling and idiotic backpedaling.
Is it any wonder, when people have seen so much venom and ignorance spewing from so-called “Christians,” that the rest of us are suspicious of any attempted evangelism by other Christians—no matter how well intentioned?
Before you launch into lectures on how “Jesus will save us,” you might want to take a closer look at your fellow Saved and Born-Again comrades… and clean up your own house first.
By Randy
August 16, 2005 08:09 AM | Link to this
Just a praise for all the Christians on this site, my daughter who is a freshman at one of the larger suburban schools here around Atlanta, made one of the big sports teams(32) players varsity and junior varsity. Last night she was invited to a bible study held by the seniors on the team and every player except a couple go to this bible study. Obviously I don’t live in Buckhead, but this shows that Atlanta is a still a strong Christian area. God Bless.
By Heather
August 16, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this
You are ready for a fight today, aren’t you taboga? ;)
By Randy
August 16, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this
I think Brian Curtis is right, non-Christians are tired of our talking and they need to see action. We as Christians need to help the hungry, comfort the homeless, etc. Let’s start helping people who don’t know the creator and get them into a place in their life where they can actually start asking what does their heart and soul really crave. Thanks for pointing that out Brian, sorry if I said anything wrong, I didn’t mean to.
By Randy
August 16, 2005 08:19 AM | Link to this
To the Christians on this site, let’s not argue with the non-Christians, let’s do like Jesus did and turn the other cheek. Most of these people will find the Creator at some point in their life, I believe very few people are going to go to their grave without knowing where they want to spend eternity.They will find God in their own way and own time. Most will be smart enough to accept the great gift he offers.
By Heather
August 16, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
That’s wonderful to hear Randy. My son came home the other day and told me about how the center he attends after school said a prayer with their snack. He was just recently baptized and it was great to have that reinforcement. He quoted their prayer word for word.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
Heather,
I just like watching all the losers whine and moan - and the freaks trying to tell everyone else how they are the stable among us.
I was really surprised that they are out here this week - thought they would be with that deranged woman in the ditch at Crawford, Tx - trying to save the world!
By Heather
August 16, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this
Brian Curtis, you have a very good point. Christians are held to a higher standard. A Christian who participates in a sinful activity when they have accepted that it is a sinful activity is committing a graver infraction than someone who has not accepted the activity as sinful.
Also, all sinful activities are equal. In other words, to have lustful thoughts for my best friends husband is just as bad as shoplifting. Having homosexual sex is not any worse than having straight sex with another woman’s husband.
Any “Christian” who comes on these boards ranting and raving about how horrible gay people are should first look at their own sins. If anyone has come on here proclaiming to be “holy” when in fact they are cheating on their spouse they are a hypocrite and will not see the Kingdom without repenting of that sin along with the adultery.
By David
August 16, 2005 08:38 AM | Link to this
Randy, your daughter is involved with sports? With other women? Uh oh.
taboga, you really have a problem with cogent logic don’t you? You really can’t spot the difference between what consenting adults do and pedophilia? If you want to get your point across you’re pretty much going to get nowhere with that kind of argument.
By Heather
August 16, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this
Excellent suggestion Randy, turning the other cheek I mean. I have learned so much on this board these last couple of weeks. I was once one of the people arguing on the other side. Its feels so different taking the stance I do now.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 08:50 AM | Link to this
David,
I am really not concerned with the nonsensical notion of “consenting adults”.
That’s about as silly as “pro-choice” - nothing but non-substantive jargon to try and justify absurdity.
And no, I see abolutely no difference between homosexuality and pedophilia - they are both sexual appetites of the deranged.
But give it a little time - you’ll be out here supporting Pedophilia as soon as the societal misfits in academia tell you to!
By Brian Curtis
August 16, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this
Randy, you’ve actually said something I agree with. If more Christians quit worrying about “looking and sounding” Christian and paid more attention to acting that way, there would be a lot less acrimony and suspicion from the non-Christians. You’d even get support and cooperation, since plenty of non-Christians likewise believe in helping the poor and feeding the hungry!
By Tony
August 16, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this
“…every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” - Jesus Christ (Mt 5:28)
“Can a man take fire to his bosom and his garments not be burned?” - Proverbs 6:27
“Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.” - The Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2351
To be fair, there is one good thing about the sin of Lust: it cannot persist into eternity. In actuality, sins of the flesh tend to burn themselves out over time. After a while lust becomes a habit and what pleasure it brought diminishes until we wonder what the attraction is.
We can limit lust to sexuality, but we may want to consider the larger area of sensuality. Sensuality is the craving for physical pleasures of all kinds. An inordinate desire to avoid pain, for physical and even emotional comfort, the best food and wine, the best looking car, can all be forms of lust. Lust denies our spiritual nature and promotes the lie that “this is all there is.” We try to make a heaven on earth, but instead we create a hell. Other people become ways of satisfying our needs. They are merely objects to service us, bring us food, run our business, give us pleasure. We want to reduce the population of the world so we won’t have to share or we want more children so they can carry on the family business. Everyone else becomes a means to an end.
Still, we usually think of lust as it pertains to sexuality. It is good to clear up a few misconceptions about the Christian view, at least as it is put forth by the Catholic Church:
“The Creator himself … established that in the (generative) function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.” - Pius XII, Discourse, October 29,1951.
In marriage, enjoyment is not the problem. Lust enters into marriage when sex is not a mutual expression of love, but rather the use of one person by another (even if the “use” is mutual). This, of course, breeds resentment and eventual alienation, even if the couple do not separate.
Another misconception is that Christians are obsessed with Lust. While this may be true for some individuals, the Church simply applies the same rules to sex that we apply to everything else: all things must be made subject to the will of God, as revealed by Jesus Christ. There are correct times and places for many things in life (“To everything there is a season”).
We simply state that sex is not an exception. Money, power, sex, reputation/honor or individualism can all become obsessions and even gods to us, but they are not evil in themselves.
Lust blinds us. In dating, lust causes us to miss the warning signs in the relationship. We gloss over major obstacles to a good marriage because our physical desires are driving us. Lust is enslavement to the senses, to the animal part of man. Lust deadens our spiritual senses so we cannot hear God calling. If you are professing to be a Christian and yet are fornicating or committing adultery (these mean sexual contact or pleasure, not just intercourse, outside of marriage), you are fooling yourself. Unrepented lust is a solid barrier to growth in faith, but it does not prevent growth in Pride. Think about it.
For some people, meditating on death and the grave may help control the sexual drives. Not out of fear, but from a simple realization that this life doesn’t last forever. The present body is corruptible, the next body is glorious. Let us keep our “eyes on the prize,” and not on this fleeting life in feeble flesh.
By Heather
August 16, 2005 09:28 AM | Link to this
Well, I would love to continue this conversation but my son’s school just called and he is sick. Tomorrow.
By Bruce
August 16, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
Randy,
Good point! Instead of us pointing our finger and shouting that’s a sin you must repent, why don’t we just resolve ourselves to pray for everyone (including each other) on this blog and allow God to do what He does best. After all it is His plan. His truth can only be revealed to those that are willing to receive it and we cannot change that, but He can. God’s word teaches us to go out and spread His word. Apparently most everyone on this blog has heard His word and have chosen to refuse it. We cannot change that either.
Great praise report. Raising our children in a Godly manner is the first step to a better society.
By David
August 16, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
taboga, I really don’t believe that you believe this…
But give it a little time - you’ll be out here supporting Pedophilia as soon as the societal misfits in academia tell you to!
First of all… who tells who to do what? Your bible tells you to do MANY things that in your heart you know don’t make sense. At the end of the day you have to have faith. Faith is a bridge between reason and “gee, I hope this is right”. Fear. Kettle/Black.
Anyway, you can feel that one day people who support homosexual rights will jump into some crazy pedophilia support, but that’s obviously not going to happen and it’s really sad you don’t see it. You have a lot more credibility asking about polygamy than whether or not kids should be abused (just thinking of your reasoning is disgusting).
I know many of these posts are personal attacks and not many people are going to have their opinion changed. But what I LOVE is that one day homosexual marriage will be a reality. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but it will happen as each year more and more people dump superstitious belief. And there really isn’t anything you can do about it. Have fun watching it happen!
By Lyrazel
August 16, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this
In recent review of comments made to this board I can see why people reject christianity and its followers for being heartless as well as mouthpieces of bigotry. Of the compassionate, some aspire to accept god and reject the philosophies of cruelty as not being paths to salvation, but there is a clear indication that homosexuality inspires condesending criticism and anger especially among the born-again faithful. So, with that knowledge why would anyone want to be counseled by christians? Why would a anyone come to a church, to be subjected to such animosity that has been shown here? I suppose everyone can make a case that there is more giving than hate, more love and spirit than fear and loathing in their houses of worship. Obviously it does not carry into this blog nor does it seem to me the wisdom of your lord really opened your hearts. Sorry al that your comments were lost among the lions being trampled by the lambs o’god proving their rightiousness; love of humanity is so difficult in our lifetime…especially after church service is over.
By Jack
August 16, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this
Since Adam & Eve had two sons, where did the other people come from?
By Questions
August 16, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this
I have a coworker who does not even speak to us heathens on Monday morning, but as the week progresses he comes down off his Superior-Than-Thou cloud. Have I mentioned he would destroy the states of California and Florida, being filled with so many sinners (meaning gays)?
By Questions
August 16, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this
Jack - have you not heard? The Adam and Eve story now is just a symbolic beginning, since there were other cultures around available for breeding purposes. Someone eventually figured out that the story meant some kind of incestous activity and that could certainly not be happening. And it really is just the story of the beginning of God’s Chosen People, not mankind in general. (when they consolidated all the primitive gods into one: *Thou shalt have NO other gods before me” translates as there are apparently quite a few others)
By OverIt
August 16, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this
This sums it all up. Shaunti — you and your pastor should read this:
The following is a very strong and moving letter written by the mother of a gay boy in Vermont…
“Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I’ve taken enough from you good people. I’m tired of your foolish rhetoric about the “homosexual agenda” and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny. My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay. He never professed to be gay or had any association with anything gay, but he had the misfortune not to walk or have gestures like the other boys. He was called “f*” incessantly, starting when he was 6. In high school, while your children were doing what kids that age should be doing, mine labored over a suicide note, drafting and redrafting it to be sure his family knew how much he loved them. My sobbing 17-year-old tore the heart out of me as he choked out that he just couldn’t bear to continue living any longer, that he didn’t want to be gay and that he couldn’t face a life without dignity. You have the audacity to talk about protecting families and children from the homosexual menace, while you yourselves tear apart families and drive children to despair. I don’t know why my son is gay, but I do know that God didn’t put him, and millions like him, on this Earth to give you someone to abuse. God gave you brains so that you could think, and it’s about time you started doing that. At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours,and you won’t get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don’t know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn. If you want to tout your own morality, you’d best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I’m puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that’s not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can? You religious folk just can’t bear the thought that as my son emerges from the hell that was his childhood he might like to find a lifelong companion and have a measure of happiness. It offends your sensibilities that he should request the right to visit that companion in the hospital, to make medical decisions for him or to benefit from tax laws governing inheritance.How dare he? you say. These outrageous requests would threaten the very existence of your family, would undermine the sanctity of marriage. You use religion to abdicate your responsibility to be thinking human beings. There are vast numbers of religious people who find your attitudes repugnant. God is not for the privileged majority, and God knows my son has committed no sin. You religious zealots lways ask “What ever happened to the idea of striving to be better human beings than we are?” Indeed, what ever happened to that?
By Eiri
August 16, 2005 10:19 AM | Link to this
From reading these posts for awhile I’ve noticed that a lot of the regular christian posters have revealed quite a bit about the baggage in their lives. Most of them have had some form of issue with drug addiction, alcoholism, and co-dependence. Many of you self-righteous, condescending myth chasers have gone from one addiction to another finally settling on the great opiate of religion. You can’t handle the realities of life, the grey areas that actually take some thought and logic, and instead give all blame and credit to an entity that no one knows exists, thereby removing all responsibility for your own bias. This lead me to believe that Christianity is a mental illness…that the intellectally lazy easily fall into. If this works for you fine, but stay the f**k out of my life. It won’t be long before the Dobsons, Perkens, and Hard40s are going to learn the consequences of their persecution.
By Jack
August 16, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this
Like I said, MY God would not condemn someone to eternal damnation because they are gay. How bout your’s Heather?
By lozen
August 16, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel, as always you make really good points. This hatred and judging by christians is what drove me away from religion many long years ago. Jesus was right when he said you can judge the tree by the fruit it produces. I saw people who used the bible to justify racism and I judged the tree by its fruits. I saw people justifying ignorance (you can’t question anything) with their religion. Now I see people justify their hatred of homosexuals by using the bible, people who justify all manner of horrible actions and thinking using the bible. I can’t be a part of any organization that produces that fruit!
By CB
August 16, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
James Dobson and his cronies should be jailed for trying to overthrow the United States. He is a treasonous weasel and ought to keep his religious butt out of politics.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/14/justice.sunday.ap/index.html
The only problem with the Romans feeding Christians to the lions was that there were NOT ENOUGH LIONS!!
By sct
August 16, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this
Very good post overit. You can’t really hope to debate the christians here though. They seem to throw stones, then hide behind their persecution complex, then praise each other as if putting a finger in their ears to drown out debate.
This is what James Dobson’s focus on the family website says could have contributed to that woman’s son turning straight. “the boy’s father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son’s maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only bigger.”
http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm
Imagine that, play catch, hit a peg into a pegboard, and of course if his father had just showered with the poor boy showing off his manhood, this child would have been “normal”. No you won’t get the christians here to debate this therory or anything else. Praise.
By Mike
August 16, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this
I don’t even know where to begin…but I do not that Shaunti, you are so wrong it is scary. First off the word is “orientation” not “preference”. You see I am gay, and I am at the point in my life where I will not let ANYBODY, not even an ignorant excuse for a journalist, like yourself continue to spread lies and misinformation based on your “opinion”. I know the truth, because it is I who is gay. How dare you smear your lies on this forum. You make me sick. What is the truth to being gay? EVERYONE READ THIS…The truth is, you are born into this world…you have two wonderful parents who you adore, you reach the age of maybe 5 or 6 when you still know absolutley nothing about sex, but looking back you can remember being attracted to maybe spiderman or some other character on TV…alot of us remember this. You develope interests that might be a little different than others like creative activities instead instead of sports. You soon encounter your first bit of hate when others start to tease you a little, so you hide what you are good at and begin to become self conscious. Time moves on and you realize even more that you dont quite fit the mode for what society says a boy should be. So you tell yourself “I will overachieve” to draw peoples attention from whatever it is they dont like about me. You reach puberty and also start to feel attraction for other guys that you think are good looking. Nothing more. You lay in bed at around age 13 thinking, maybe this is God’s way of telling you, you are going to be dead by the time you need to marry, because you have a gut feeling you wont get married…how can you?, when you dont feel anything for all the girls, even the ones the guys show you pictures of in magazines and you pretend to make comments on and funny sounds like all the other guys. You start to learn about sexuality, but still have never done anything. Other guys are talking about breasts, and girls, and you struggle to fit in…making comments like every other guy and hoping that nobody notices you commenting on a girl that isnt that hot, because you really dont get it…you really dont feel anything but you are so scared that someone might suspect you are same sex oriented that you over do it. Commenting and pretending to be atttracted to girls. Meanwhile, you learn all there is about sex, and you hear all the trash that is spewed out by fear filled, ignorant individuals like yourself Shaunti, that you know you can never let anyone know this. But then you wonder why? I’m not attracted to girls!! You pray every night, because you are raised in a church, and you have two incredible parents that teach you morals and values. Meanwhile, you watch straight boys drink, get bad grades, be disrespectful to others….and you focus on your grades, area always respectful to others, you become validictorian, and yet you still have never been on a date! Why? Because you decide you are just going to be asexual…you cant ask a girl out because you arent attracted to them. You become more obsessed with being self conscious and you occasionally hear some brain dead straight guy calling you a f* behing your back. It hurts, but you know you arent one of them. Those are the weird guys you see wearing dresses and limp wrists. You dont stress tou much because you know eventually you will get married and somehow pull it off. Time moves on….you go to college, your feeling becoming stronger and you meet other guys who you suspect are the same as you. They are the overachievers, the self counscious dressers, the very nice ones, the polite ones, the ones who everyone just loves. You realize you have accomplished what you wanted…to have everyone like you and be proud of you. Its almost like you are preparing them so when the time comes for them to hold a mirror up to their ignorance and fears of gays, they will go “but how can you be gay??” AFter college, and no dates…or maybe a few girl “friend” dates, you get a job. You soon meet one person that you have an emotional and physical connection that you have never felt before, and have struggled to feel for girls, but never have. YOU NEVER HAVE FELT A SEXUAL ATTRACTION FOR GIRLS!!! Meanwhile, you have been hearing religious nuts carry on with their garbage and you say to yourself, “well wait a minute, thats not true.” You hear things said about the parents of gays….totally not true! It makes you mad. You hear tons of people say things about gays and you thing, you moron,,,youre talking to one right now and you dont even know it. Yet, you think I am one of the most wonderful people you know. You think my parents are role models. You begin to see true hypoicrisy and ignorance in action, and it begins to make you angrier and angrier! Finally, you are in a relationship with this person for 15 years and you have hidden it to the point of making you crazy. Your life has been the model for acting, lieing, pretending, trying to fit in, and being the best person you could possibly be. You realize you must come out and tell others. Some cant believe it, others are forced to face their incorrect opinions, and others dive deeper into their hatred and fear.
And there you are….the truth. Other items - EVERYONE knows someone whos gay, they just dont realize it. The majority of gay men blend right into the rest of socieity. Because the typical stereotype swishy guy stands out, that becomes the visual image of a gay man. In reality, the majority just arent seen. That’s the truth. I am in Washington DC, have worked for a US Senator, and I’m telling you, there isnt an office on Capital Hill that doesnt have a gay man working in it. You just dont know it. Once again, as if to say I will prove to you..I will overachieve and as it to slap it in your face. So, dont tell me what you “think” Shaunti, I “know” what I “know”…because it is me. And I will be damned if you will spread lies on here. Thank you.
By Eiri
August 16, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this
That’s funny Sct,
I actually remember taking a shower with my Dad…guess it didn’t take with me.
I’ve been to his website…it’s full of distortions, opinions expressed as fact, and outright lies. But the worst thing about his theories at least for male homosexuals is that they all involved the early detection of feminism in boys. According to him, boys on the road to being gay all will: dress in womens clothes, choose little girls as playmates, not have any athletic ability or interest, and of course have lousy relationships with their dads. It’s the biggest load of crap published on the web. I’m gay…love men and always have, but I didn’t dress in girls clothes, I couldn’t stand being around little prissy girls, was an accomplished athelete at an early age, and have a great relationship with my dad..always have. And my two brothers that were raised exactly as I was are completely heterosexual.
And a note to Hard40. HIV is no more prevalant among monogamous gays than Genital Herpes is among married folks. Why don’t you go tell some of your hetero buds to stop spreading that around…it’s still a major epidemic among you breeders.
By Mike
August 16, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this
Thank You Eiri. Your comment backs mine up above yours. God help us with the mindset of this country now.
By sct
August 16, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
From James Dobson’s website.
Is your child gay? 1. A strong feeling that they are “different� from other boys.
A tendency to cry easily, be less athletic, and dislike the roughhousing that other boys enjoy.
A persistent preference to play female roles in make-believe play.
A strong preference to spend time in the company of girls and participate in their games and other pastimes.
A susceptibility to be bullied by other boys, who may tease them unmercifully and call them “queer,� “f*� and “gay.�
A tendency to walk, talk, dress and even “think� effeminately.
A repeatedly stated desire to be � or insistence that he is � a girl.
If your son is showing any of these symptoms it may mean its gods will that your child is going to grow up gay, however we christians don’t like it so we must change your son. Butch him up, wrestle with him, shower with him, tell him god hates him, play catch with him, tell him Santa won’t leave him any toys. But please its our reponsibilty to defy gods will and straighten that boy up!
Oh and if you know of a neighborhood boy that is showing symptoms of gayness, have your son bully him and taunt the boy with gay slurs, it will butch the kid straight and the boys parents may see this then realize they have a problem, then that boys father can shower with him. Then, praise, that boy is cured.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this
Tony, I actually agreed with some of your latest cut and paste today, but not the overall message. What you and your church call “lust” I just call normal youthful behavior. A strong sexual urge develops at a certain age. It’s always been that way; it will always be that way. No matter what the church says and no matter whether a particular culture deals with it or not, it’s reality. Yes, it goes away for most of us as we grow older but why do we forget as we grow older how strong that drive was when we were young? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with physical pleasure or the desire to avoid pain. It’s just part of being human. I don’t believe strong sexual desires deny our spiritual nature but then, unlike the christian church, I see the body and the spirit as one and not as two warring factions within us. Humans are animals and although the church has been denying that and trying to change that for thousands of years, it hasn’t and will not change. What is so bad in accepting the fact that we are animals? Animals aren’t so bad! Why don’t we accept reality, create cultural supports for mistakes young people make while “blinded by lust,” and stop trying to change human sexual nature?
By Brian Curtis
August 16, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
Mike: Good testimony, but please try some line breaks! It’s hard to read a long block of text like that.
David: Don’t bother trying to debate taboga; he’s a troll and a coward. You’ll notice he doesn’t answer any of your points except to throw more insults and whine a lot. He’s not worth your time, when there are sane and intelligent posters to debate with.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this
David,
First of all… who tells who to do what? Your bible tells you to do MANY things that in your heart you know don’t make sense. At the end of the day you have to have faith. Faith is a bridge between reason and “gee, I hope this is right�. Fear. Kettle/Black.
I am not religious - none of that applies to me.
Anyway, you can feel that one day people who support homosexual rights will jump into some crazy pedophilia support, but that’s obviously not going to happen and it’s really sad you don’t see it. You have a lot more credibility asking about polygamy than whether or not kids should be abused (just thinking of your reasoning is disgusting).
It will certainly happen - the amount of Useful Idiots continue to grow. They will support pedophilia only because they will be told that it makes them “open-minded” and “non-discriminatory”.
I know many of these posts are personal attacks and not many people are going to have their opinion changed. But what I LOVE is that one day homosexual marriage will be a reality. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but it will happen as each year more and more people dump superstitious belief. And there really isn’t anything you can do about it. Have fun watching it happen!
Loser talk. “Next year”, “It will happen one day…” Losers make themselves feel better with those dreams.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 11:27 AM | Link to this
CB, thanks for the email address. This was the most telling sentence in that article and this is why we have to fight these people.
“At the rally Sunday, Mike Miller, 54, of Gallatin echoed many of the speakers comments on judicial power, saying he believes Supreme Court justices try to create laws with their rulings instead of interpreting the Constitution.
“Activist justices — we’re trying to find out what we can do to stop that activity,” he said. “Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments.”
I am a citizen of this country and my laws are NOT based on the ten commandments. Religion has no part in making the laws of this republic where buddhists, muslims, hundreds of disagreeing sects of christianity that disagree on biblical interpretation, mormons, taoists, pagans (including native americans) all live together.
This is not a theocracy and please don’t ever let it become one!
By Eiri
August 16, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
A good article on the realities of reparative therapy. Read the whole article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/15/AR2005081501022.html?nav=rss_health
By taboga
August 16, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this
Lozen,
The religious movement is continually getting stronger. And it is precisely because you on the Left didn’t have enough sense to let the sleeping giant lay.
By Hard40
August 16, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this
I call myself Hard40, because I’m a tall, 6’3 handsome, well-endowed, masculine man, and proud of it. Women find me irresistible, even when i treat them poorly. Women gush at the sight of me. Mike, you can’t call me a breeder, since i have no children. Furthermore, I’m not a woman hater. I said nothing to indicate that i hate women. What are you talking about? As for the issue of Christian counseling to “cure” homosexuality. It is a waste of time. I saw an expose about it on the 20/20. It does’nt work. F* are hopeless, they will die old, lonely, and ashamed of themselves.
By Netbanker
August 16, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
This quote comes from a TX State Representative as part of a longer speech that I won’t post here, but it captures much of society’s pathology on gay people:
“We have worked hard at putting our prejudices against homosexuals in law. We have denied them basic job protections. We have denied them and their children freedom from bullying and harassment at school. We have tried to criminalize their very existence. But, we have also absolved them of all family duties and responsibilities: to care for and support their spouses and children, to count their family’s assets in determining public assistance, to obtain health insurance for dependents, to make end-of-life or necessary medical decisions for their life partners—- sometimes even to visit in the hospital, even to defend our own country. And then, we can stand on our two hind legs and proclaim, “See, I told you homosexual families are unstable.”
By taboga
August 16, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
“We have worked hard at putting our prejudices against homosexuals in law.
No such thing has happened.
We have denied them basic job protections.
There is no such thing as “basic job protections” - more Leftist prattle.
We have denied them and their children freedom from bullying and harassment at school.
Another reason they should not be allowed to adopt children.
We have tried to criminalize their very existence.
No one has done anything of the sort.
But, we have also absolved them of all family duties and responsibilities: to care for and support their spouses and children, to count their family’s assets in determining public assistance, to obtain health insurance for dependents, to make end-of-life or necessary medical decisions for their life partners�- sometimes even to visit in the hospital, even to defend our own country. And then, we can stand on our two hind legs and proclaim, “See, I told you homosexual families are unstable
And more prattling…
By lozen
August 16, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this
Mike, thank you for your post. I’ve heard this story so many times from wonderful, wounded, funny, sad, angry men and women. I too believe someday the prejudice against gay people will be gone (at least with intelligent people) just as racism (at least with intelligent people) has passed away, and gay people will be able to make the committment of marriage to each other. This is such a frightening time in our history. Many people in the U.S. now are feeling so much insecurity because of terrorism. We’re losing supports we had in the past, social security is failing, so many of the systems to help people are disappearing, and people are without jobs, medical care, homes. Religion always grows stronger when people feel fear and insecurity. We have to be vigilant because religious fervor so easily becomes persecution; it’s happened many times in the past and it’s happening now and has to be stopped. We have to fight people like Dobson, and those other televangelists (who’s that fat-face one who has the so called university?) who cash in on fear and teach hate and intolerance.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
“I said nothing to indicate that i hate women.”
(I believe you made yourself clear to everyone.)
“I call myself Hard40, because I’m a tall, 6’3 handsome, well-endowed, masculine man, and proud of it. Women find me irresistible, even when i treat them poorly. Women gush at the sight of me.”
THAT proves you hate women. It also proves you are over 40, probably overweight, not attractive at all, live in a one bedroom worn down apartment. Very poor housekeeper, usually wears slightly dirty clothes, makes less than 20k per year. More than likely you have never been well endowed & it seriously affected your life when young.
Most women won’t talk to you. That is why you dislike them.I don’t see what the big deal is about homosexuals. I’m more offended by a lot of so called normal people.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this
Whiley, ha! LMAO at your last post.
By Jd
August 16, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this
Alot of crazy stuff on here today, being gay must be a very hard life. You gotta fight the haters, and the very people that are supposed to show compassion. All for love………………… ya right.
By CommentatorOne
August 16, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
Hard40: giving new meaning to the term All the Weirdos Live in California”
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
Wiley, or whatever your name is, you are intimated by successful, attractive men like me. You would die to be me for a day. Your constantly try to compensate for having a tiny dick, a receding hairline and a beer belly. May i suggest a p*** or p*** pills? I bet you don’t even earn 60,000 dollars a year. What is the real issue? YOUR ARE A NOBODY WITH NOTHING. When you walk into a room noone gives you a second look. You will never know what its like to be a WINNER. Your a dumb, dirty, truck driving illiterate redneck. All of you rednecks look alike, a result of being inbred. You will end up working until your 65 years old and retire collecting social security. What do you know about anything? This town is filled with hillbillys.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this
Whiley is a women you d*******
By Patrick
August 16, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this
A thought occurred to me: As Shaunti and James Dobson and their supporters have convincingly argued, case studies demonstrate that Reparative Therapy can work and does work in some situations. Well, if Reparative Therapy can successfully transform a homosexual into a heterosexual than why can’t we design a Reparative Therapy program to transform fundamentalist Christians into fundamentalist Muslims? Since Islam is the true faith … well, need I say more. We have lots of work to do!
By taboga
August 16, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
Religion always grows stronger when people feel fear and insecurity. We have to be vigilant because religious fervor so easily becomes persecution; it’s happened many times in the past and it’s happening now and has to be stopped. We have to fight people like Dobson, and those other televangelists (who’s that fat-face one who has the so called university?) who cash in on fear and teach hate and intolerance.
What do you plan on “fighting” them with…? You gonna stand in a ditch like Cindy Sheehan with a few dozen weirdos and freaks?
Or maybe you’ll fight them by calling them Racists, Bigots and Homophobes? Well, I guess if that doesn’t work, you can make fun of their belief in God and call them hate-mongerers?
Watching you Leftist losers flail around like the fish out of water - is getting more entertaining by the day!
By Scalia
August 16, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this
Taboga, you are an bumbling idiot. So there is no amendment to the constitution to protect marriage? So up until recently, there was no law against sodomy? The two men in Texas were arrested for having homosexual sex.
As for basic job protections, several people (including a woman who was injured during Eric Rudolph’s bombing of The Other Side Club)have lost their jobs because they are homosexual. Several people have lost their jobs in the army because they are homosexual.
There is no such thing as “basic job protections�- more conservative prattle.
By Brian Curtis
August 16, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
Good idea, Patrick! After all, fundamentalism is a hardwired brain disorder, so there’s no hope of converting them to rational thought or real Christianity… but maybe we can convert them into, lessee… fundamentalist Muslims! Nope, still too violent.
Fundamentalist Jews? Hmm… problematic, if they move to Israel.
I’ve got it! Let’s make them into fundamentalist Buddhists!
By Brian Curtis
August 16, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
Scalia, you’re a little late to the party. Taboga’s been proving what a bumbling, cowardly idiot he is for some time now. Just point and laugh like the rest of us; it’s really all that a pathetic nothing like him deserves.
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
My brain is very smooth and the size of a peanut.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
Taboga, you are an bumbling idiot. So there is no amendment to the constitution to protect marriage?
No, there is not Constitutional Amendment protecting marriage.
So up until recently, there was no law against sodomy? The two men in Texas were arrested for having homosexual sex.
The law was about sodomy - not about Gays. The laws (agree or disagree with them) were put in place to protect women from abusive husbands. Had nothing to do with Gays.
As for basic job protections, several people (including a woman who was injured during Eric Rudolph’s bombing of The Other Side Club)have lost their jobs because they are homosexual.
None of that means there were any laws made in that regard.
Several people have lost their jobs in the army because they are homosexual.
The Armed Services are not bound by all the laws and regulations of society. After all, they have a military job to perform - they’re not a societal experiment for the “can’t we all get along” crowd.
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
Tim, aren’t you that cockroach n**** who eats only soulfood? I recall from prior posts that your a f* too. Why would someone like Wiley, if she’s a woman waste so much time trying to tell me off. It just p** “her” off that i hold myself in such high regard. Typical behavior of losers. What more could i expect?
By taboga
August 16, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
You folks better pay attention to your blog monitor - Brian. He tells you who you can reply to and not. He takes every opportunity to say something to me in a post to you because the loser is afraid to reply directly to me. He’s like the little kid in class…
By Scalia
August 16, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this
Wow, I cannot believe that the monitor let HARD40 say that.
Especially about Tim, he’s cool.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
Thank you Tim :) Yes, men like Im a loser40 or whatever his name is, are ignored by women because they give off such negative vibes, similar to a child molester or serial killer. The saddest thing is that they have created this barrier themselves. If they cleaned up their act, really worked on their appearance, worked on some people skills, the whole world would open up to them more. It takes a lot of work to alienate yourself from people, without any benefits.
Another example are homophobes. Using biblical reasons to justify hate. And you can’t compare Pedophiles to homosexuals. (if you approve of one you have to approve of the other) That argument is like comparing the nutritional value of cereal to the price of a Honda.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Brian,
Fundamentalist Buddhists can be kind of fierce too. I suggest fundamentalist Wiccans, but then we might have them running around nekkid.
By CommentatorOne
August 16, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
‘Tis better to ignore the insignificant
By Tim
August 16, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this
haha limpy… you’re still as dumb as ever I see… ‘well educated’ hahaha… that one just doesn’t get old… anyway, if by n**** you mean black… then no I am not black… I am about as white as they come (other than about 1/4 native american) … what I said before is that I am sure if someone were to shake my family tree enough a little color would fall out… but yes I love soul food… it is what I was raised on… and before you go on a rant like you did before about you much you pity me eating all that unhealthy food… I have less than 5% body fat… low cholesterol… and low blood pressure… but the one thing you forgot to mention is how poor you thought that I am… that one was really amusing before
but you have fun trying to put other people down b/c that is the only way to make yourself feel better… oh and keep on bragging about how nice looking and successful you are… I am sure everyone on here really believes that… noticed you didn’t say how much you weigh… probably because you are a fat discusting pig
and finally… yes I am as gay as they come darlin… but sorry not interested in trash… go hang out at one of those ‘Christian’ counseling places… I am sure you can snag a date there
By Netbanker
August 16, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
T…you are so out of touch with your responses. What about the Equal Rights Amendment for covering basic job protections? Criminalization of same sex sodomy but not heterosexual sodomy was the law in more than one state. The stuff you call prattle happens every day and has happened to people I know.
Lozen…thanks for the thoughts about the dog. Anyone who has experience the unconditional love and joy of a 3 year old can understand the joy of having a dog in their house. The best part about the dog is that they’ll never mature beyond the level of a 3 year old…always loving, never angry long, able to forgive anything, and most of all just wanting to love you back. Almost sounds like the definition of a christian, doesn’t it?
By taboga
August 16, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this
Come on folks!
Let’s get in full support mode for Incest!
These loving people have been discriminated against long enough!
As long as they are “consenting adults” what business is it of anyone else to tell them who they can marry and not?
We can start a tidal wave of support for incest right here on the AJC blog. How can we stand idly by and let these folks be treated like “second class citizens”…?
By Argy
August 16, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this
(__) __(oo) / \/ (__) /Brian \\ (oo) /| /---^^---\/ / | /|Taboga || * || ||------|||By Tim
August 16, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this
thanks Scalia :)
By sct
August 16, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
And you can’t compare Pedophiles to homosexuals. (if you approve of one you have to approve of the other) That argument is like comparing the nutritional value of cereal to the price of a Honda.
Whiley, can you imagine the outrage this statement would make…”If you approve of heterosexual sex you also approve of rape.”
By Tim
August 16, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
Whiley… sooooo true
By Ken
August 16, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this
Eiri…
Let me break the mold for you. I am a member of the church and do not have any of the “baggage” you refer to.
In fact, most do not. Mamy are also highly educated individuals with, as previous posters would say, several degrees and letters after their name. It is obvious your primary exposure to the Church is through this BLOG, things you have seen on television or a single traumatic experience.
That would be like me making statements about Muslims even though my experience to them is limited almost entirely to terrorists I see in the news.
Like any other group, there are extreme folks. Folks who take the ideology to a level where virtually none of the others will go. Christianity is no exception. We routinely have the poor and the homeless in our sanctuary on Sunday morning. My church welcomes all and I have not witnessed anything to the contrary. That, in fact, is the norm, not the exception.
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this
Tim, you silly f*, what i said must have really stung!!(laughing) Oh, I guess I was mistaken, your whitetrash who only eats soulfood. Do you live in a roach infested trailer with an old rusty fridge on the porch? I bet your mouth is filled with chewing tobacco? Probably.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
The fact that homosexuality is even compared to pedofilia is ignorant. There is no comparison between the two and anyone who thinks otherwise is lacking many, many brain cells.
It kills me that people still make that argument. A child molester is a sick, sick person who is encroaching on the rights of an innocent child. I also might make note that these people are not gay and usually turn out to be PREACHERS.
By BlowThisJoint
August 16, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
educated? “your” for “you’re”
dats edumacation alright
By Ben
August 16, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
Hard40 is a bad dude considering he is anonymous. He is the guys that sits behind his computer in a dark room with an ashtray full of old cigarettes butts, pushing his taped, black-rimmed glasses from his nose, while he scratches his scraggily beard. He types his filth here because he knows if he actually had human contact he’d end up on the 6 o’clock news with the other evening statistics.
No need to get all worked up by him, for you only fuel his fascination with ignorance.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
Yes, Confucius say, “Ignore the insignificant!”
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this
Ben, i don’t smoke and i don’t wear glasses thanks to my lasik surgery.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
limpy… wow… did you figure all that out from being ‘well educated’
do you know nothing about ‘the gays’… we don’t do trailers and chewing tobacco… we do high rise condos and martinis… get it right d*******… if you are going to insult someone at least use an actual stereotype
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
Even better silly comparison sct. Am I to understand that that sex between MEN is the problem? Sex between WOMEN appears to be encouraged. (as long as the ladies involved are pretty) What if both men are attractive? Would their sex be more accepted?
I think sex between blatantly ugly people is much more offensive than 2 attractive gay men.
Then again, what is this focus on sex? (You can do “A”, but not “B”, & only “C” if you are thin etc) I think gays should be able to have civil weddings. In a church? Only if that religion allows it. If they don’t, then don’t force the issue go somewhere else. The religious has every right to have whatever rules they want. If you don’t like the rules, don’t join their clubs. There, solved. Civil weddings are cheaper anyway.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
Ken, if you are so different why do I never hear you telling these crazy extremists that they’re crazy? Why have I never heard you support anything having to do with tolerance toward gays? I’m sorry. You’re claim doesn’t have anything to back it up!
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this
Ben, thanks and right on about that Hard idiot. I doubt he is ever really hard if u know what I mean. tim doesnt call him LIMPY for nothing
By Ben
August 16, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this
Fair enough Hard40 … Fair enough.
By SB
August 16, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
I don’t think this sort of counseling helps anyone - if anything, all it does is brainwash a person to believe that they’re naturally a horrible, sick individual … Which is just a heinous thing to subject oneself or someone else to.
That said, Heather - I’m straight, but lived through plenty of abuse myself. You post struck me b/c I’m wondering if you’re not equating the wrong things … Plenty of heterosexual abuse victims have very active, swinging, S&M, fill-in-the-blank sex lives. This is by no means limited to the homosexual community.
My personal theory is that it’s our (“our” meaning survivors) subconscious working out exactly what happened, trying to make sense of the past by controlling the present.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this
What if both men are attractive? Would their sex be more accepted?
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS :)
By HARD40
August 16, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Tim, I’m sure there are plenty of f* who are whitetrash living in trailerparks.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
ROFL TIM ! ! ! !
And you are so correct
hehe
By lozen
August 16, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
Tim, son! This is your mom speaking: Ignore the insignificant! Don’t waste your time sweetie; we know you’re more of a man than “it” will ever be.
By SB
August 16, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
Hard - there are plenty of useless people floating around overall … I don’t think any one group has more than their fair share
By Tim
August 16, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
limpy… then be careful… you may have one as your neighbor
Whiley ;)
By Renee
August 16, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Why does everyone equate homosexuality with sex. Sex is a part of it but not the main part, but it seems to be what straight people focus on. Fortunately the gay community does not focus on their own sex half as much as the hetero community focuses on gay sex.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
Where did all you compassionate Leftists go?
Our marriage laws are discriminating against incestuous couples! Their rights are being denied! They don’t have equal protection under the law and have always been treated as second class citizens!
When are you Liberals gonna stand up for the rights of these folks!
By kimberly
August 16, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
When Christ got all judgmental and condemning of behavior, he let loose on the alleged “moral leaders” of his time, not on nice young men like Tim.
Be who you are. Love whom you love. And for goodness’ sake, for those of you who might be on the fence about this issue: DON’T go marrying a woman if you don’t REALLY REALLY REALLY love her in all the ways she needs to be loved! Geez. Why punish innocent women just because your mother can’t deal? Why punish yourself?
By Tim
August 16, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this
lozen… sorry… it’s just too much fun… I can’t help myself… must… annoy… the… dumbass
but for you… I will now stop :)
By sct
August 16, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this
Ken could you imagine the reaction you would get if 2 men entered a church holding hands in 95% of the churches in Georgia would be?
Why don’t you (who I assume is straight) try a little experiment. Pick out a random So Baptist church anywhere in Georgia. Find a straight friend and hold hands while entering the church and during service, then also as you leave.
What do you think the reaction would be? Even though you aren’t gays and have committed no perceived homosexual sins, you would probably both at the least told never to come back, you would probably be called many names, and might even be assaulted.
Then come back here and let us know how those stones felt. All based on perception and hate, not sin.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
I bet u all $100 that aboga and Hard40 are lovers
By Eiri
August 16, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
Ken,
I made that generalization about Christians to make a point and yes…hit a nerve. If I come on this site and make ridiculous, insulting generalizations about Christians, people I’ve never met,know nothing about, and do not understand why they believe as they do, I’m sure they find that offensive. I wanted some of these people to know the sting of irrational insults.
I do not really believe all people of faith are mentally ill.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
sorry for mispelling your name Taboga.
By SB
August 16, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this
Oh, and Whiley - sex between gorgeous men is mindnumbingly hot (just like sex between any other combination of beautiful people).
Why do you think women flocked to Queer As Folk? ;)
By taboga
August 16, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Don’t apologize alien - just get out there and take the lead on defending the incestuous couples rights to marry and be treated with respect and dignity!
By Argy
August 16, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
taboga,
Try saying it a third time, maybe you’ll get those leftists attention then!
By Ken
August 16, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this
Actually Lozen if you would read my posts I do exactly those things…
I call people from both sides of many issues extremists.
I advocate that the government should let people act as they wish so long as they do not physically hurt other people. Big Bro should leave us all the heck alone.
I simply try to project how I believe we SHOULD act rather than denouncing how we should not act. I want to be positive. I want to build. I believe that positive reinforcement is the best way to change society.
However, the fact remains that we have many different people who want to live many different lifestyles. We do not have to agree with or even condone all of those different lifestyles, but we do have to tolerate them.
By Ben
August 16, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this
Taboga - You are getting quite annoying. Only a simple mind such as yours could even equate homosexuality to incest or pedophilia. Pedophilia, last I checked, was illegal; being gay is legal. Incest is umm, illegal, not to mention sick; being gay is legal.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
great point sct.i wish more people would be wilin to walk a mile in another man’s/woman’s shoes. that would change their whole outlook. I promise u.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this
Taboga - You are getting quite annoying. Only a simple mind such as yours could even equate homosexuality to incest or pedophilia. Pedophilia, last I checked, was illegal; being gay is legal. Incest is umm, illegal, not to mention sick; being gay is legal.
So what are you saying Ben - if we make homosexuality illegal the problem will be solved?
It would seem to me, that you self-appointed defenders of freedom would be even more concerned about he incestuous couples because they can’t even legally express their love for one another - much less marry one another!
But you may have stumbled on the solution to the problem with Gays: Illegalize homosexuality. You might be on to something…
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
the very fact that u equate homosexuality to incest shows that u cannot put together an intelligent thought. What in the hell does a person having sex with a member of his/her family have to do with men with men or women with women? Please educate me or should i say un-educate me. I think it is possible to become dumber listening to people like you. I truly believe that you and Hard so full of gay frustraton from having to be in the closet that you lash out against us cause u want to pump a man so freakin bad. Come on out of that closet and meet me at Bulldogs. Life is too short men. And they do some great dancing there too. My girlfriend and I go all the time.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
Again, ROFL TIM ! ! Everyone (most) should want to live in a gay community. I would think the homes & lawns would be better cared for, better cars, no threat of street harassment, safer. And everyone is dressed fabulously! How can that ever be a bad thing?
And how do these Gay-changers work? Make patients dress badly without any style what so ever? Force them to only listen to 96 rock?, only allow shoot em up movies & cop shows?? Stop eating healthy & ban Dr physicals? Only allow one pair of tennis shoes & underwear with holes in them? Forced nightly visits to sport bars? Someone explain this to me.
By Ken
August 16, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Sct… You don’t have to assume I am stright. I’ll tell you that I am.
I wouldn’t take part in your experiment because I am not concerned with what happens in many of the other churches in this state. I am concerned with the congregation I am working with right now. I am concerned with the food programs we provide, the shelters we fund, the houses we help build and the learning programs for anyone who would like to participate.
I also find your suppostion offensive b/c unless you have beenn in 95% of the churches in the state you can’t make that statement. I can tell you that 100% of the churches I have attended (and that number is not 1 or 2) would not bat an eyelash at the sight.
By Destini
August 16, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this
Adrien —- you’re about to lose your money. HARD40 already said in an earlier post that “he can’t hold his stool because he’s been pooked in his but so much”. My guess is that Taboga dumped him for his slutty ways.
By Ben
August 16, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
No Taboga, what I was saying was you are simple-minded.
By Ben
August 16, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
Taboga - Don’t read too far into it, the point is usually right there up top.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
Whiley… hahaha… love your post… love you… love everything about you… thinking about being you for halloween ;)
Ken… what was your vote concerning the marriage amendment last year?
By Renee
August 16, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this
Personally, I don’t agree with incest. I think it’s gross, nasty and sick. That’s my personal opinion. However, if a sister and brother of their own accord (not being forced into it)want to go down that road and marry (if it was legal) then it doesn’t infringe on my life at all, therefore I would not infringe on theirs.
I wonder why people don’t take this attitude with us. You personally may not agree with it, but don’t stop someone else from what they want. It does not infringe on your personal life, liberty or happiness, so it should not make a difference. We don’t hold gay recruitment meetings nor do we even want to turn a straight person gay (another myth).
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
rtfl Destini. U got me on that one. too funny.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this
All the Leftists now pretending that they don’t see the comparison between incest and homosexuality.
By Roxane
August 16, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
Interesting and somewhat on point:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/whatmakespeople_gay/
By taboga
August 16, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this
Ben,
You can say all you want - I couldn’t care less. You have made no point - you just have something to say.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Amen Renee, that is just another myth/sterotype that comes out of ignorance. No gay person would want to convince a straight person to become gay(if it were even possible to BECOME gay) and by the way people who pretend to reform and most of them are pretending, are simply caving to the non acceptance that we gay people deal with everyday. some people cannot take the guilt brought on by years of traditional religious influence or they long to keep the relationship they have with their parents, friends, pastors who they know will NEVER accept this lifestyle.
By Ben
August 16, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
Please Taboga - Enlighten us on the comparison between incest and homosexuality. I’m interested in seeing if you really know anything or if you just post ignorant messages with no meaning or substance; further shedding light on your ignorance and simple mindedness.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
What exactly is your point? I’ve seen you draw many comparisons, some better than others, and a lot of you suggesting what leftists should do if they’re as liberal as you think they are. What do you think should be done? Should homosexuals go through Christian counseling as soon as they realize their orientation? Should sodomy be banned? Should there be employment protection for religion but not sexual orientation? With all the insistence that others come up with their own ideas, I’ve seen rather few from you.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Taboga, please, give us an intelligent, comprehensive explanation on the comparison between incest and homosexuality
By Jack
August 16, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Hard40 = Archie Bunker
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this
taboga, if u aren’t the pot calling the kettle black. baby, you haven’t said anything that even sounds adult, let alone anything that makes intelligent sense. Incest = family members fuing Homosexuality= Adults fuking Adults. Get it yet?
By Ben
August 16, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
Taboga - You do care or you wouldn’t respond to me. And you should be one to talk about not making a point. I haven’t seen you make a point in two weeks.
I made a very good point, in that you are simple-minded, oh, and that you are quite annoying. Pretty good points on my scorecard.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
“… thinking about being you for Halloween ;)”
GREAT ! FIRST you’ll need large breasts, 70’s Cher hair & you have to say everything out loud the moment thoughts pop into your head. hehe And most importantly, you must only have sex with attractive men (no pity sex). You are never allowed to feel guilty about it. (so you’d better not attend church)
By BlowThisJoint
August 16, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Please hold while Taboga goes and checks the Right-Wing websites for a proper answer. holding, holding.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Ben you’re a mindless rube who’s think-o-meter has no voltage. My comparison is extremely simple - even a third-grader could understand it. It goes over your head - therefore you do the typical liberal tap-dancing. Your boring with your senseless replies - come up with an original point and I will be happy to debate you. Not holding my breath however.
Argy,
The point is very simple. If you are going to support Gay Rights based on the notion that: 1. Consenting adults should have a right to the their own sexaul behavior with whatever sexual partner they desire. 2. Our laws should “stay out of our bedroom” - so to speak. 3. People shouldn’t be discriminated against because of their sexual preference. 4. People should have the right to marry who they choose…
…Then these same principles should apply to couples who partake in incest as well. Are they not “consenting adults”? Are they not being discriminated against because of their sexual preferences? Are they not being denied the right to marry who they want?
Only a moron like Ben would suggest that I am stating that homosexuality and incest are the same thing. They are of course two completely different things. But it would only seem logical to me, that if you support Gay Rights BASED on the things I described above - then you should also support the incestuous couples based on the same reasoning.
This is not that hard to understand. It really isn’t.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this
Is it me or is that epeisode of Will and Grace with Cher the best one they ever made? Ahhh man, that darn Jack..Good time man…. Good time. I love that show as well
By BlowThisJoint
August 16, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
y’all know Taboga is a Bud drinker, don’t you? probably canned Bud at that. Enough said.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
ok Whiley… I have had practice with the last one (“And most importantly, you must only have sex with attractive men (no pity sex)”) so that is definitely not a problem lol… and I don’t think I will have trouble finding a big rack or 70s ‘Cher hair’ in Atlanta… and can definitely say any thought that comes to mind… this could definitely work out :) lol
By Argy
August 16, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
Try reading my post again. I understand the similarities between incest, homosexuality, and polygamy. I think there are some differences as well. I’m asking what you think, not what you think leftists should think.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
Taboga, BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! stupid point u just made. Consenting adults do all kinds of things that are immoral, but it is unlawful to have sex or children with a family member. U will NEVER be able to legislate morality. A man just dies a few months ago from having sex with a freakin horse. Stop being so concerned with what people do when they draw their curtains. there are a lot of worthy causes out there that u can influence. U are not gonna change the minds of a man wanting another mans equipment and u SURE arenn’t gonna change my mind from wanting my beautiful girlfriend. Dufuss, get a life. and meet me at bulldogs tonight. see u there baby.
By sct
August 16, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
ken, can a gay catholic receive communion?
Can gay lovers belong to a So baptist church under the rules of their convention? Did they have a boycot of disney over gay benefits? didn’t they recently kick out 2 of their gay freindly churches?
Does James Dobson give seminars on gay conversion? And speak out against gays as the cornerstone of his organization?
Does Jerry Falwell criticize tinky winky for being a gay role model?
Did Pat Robertson once pray for a hurricane to strike Orlando because of Disney?
For you to imply that the vast majority of christian religion is not openly hostile to gays is absurd. Accepting? Please.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this
Actually Taboga that made sense and I agree. There is one difference though. I don’t think there are that many incestuous couples fighting for their rights. I am yet to see an incest convention, parade or anything else. You have made a good point but the incestuous couples are few and far between thankfully.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Do I sense a love connection between Wiley and Tim? Love is in the air la la la la la Love is in the air !!!
By Tim
August 16, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Adrien… there have been a couple… I am assuming you are talking about the one where he runs into her and thinks she is a drag queen… LOVE IT ;)… but my partner for some reason does not find it as amusing when I start singing “If I could turn back time”
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
Adrien was that when Jack took his Cher doll to the restaurant? Real Cher showed up ? That man is too funny !
By Renee
August 16, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
Adrien, question totally off the subject. Have girls started going to Bulldogs?
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this
yes, that is the one where JAck tries to show her how to be more like Cher. it was hilarious. I was rotfl at that one.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this
Renee, Yes, I was surprised when I first started going to Bulldogs, there were a lot of women in there. Depending on what night also. I like it cause it is no drama there. U know the women can get pushy in the Les clubs, so I can go to Bulldogs and just dance, drink and not be bothered.
By Tim
August 16, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this
Adrien… I have been a Whiley admirer for a while… unfortunately we seek similar things… nice lookin men :) oh and btw… that is definitely one of the best episodes :)… for that longest time I thought I wanted a ‘Karen’ in my life… then after much soul searching I realized I didn’t want a Karen… I wanted to be the male version of Karen :)
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
“Do I sense a love connection between Wiley and Tim?”
Only if I can convert him & he’s better looking than my current.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Okay, that’s cool. I know the women can’t keep a club going for long. The last time I went to Bulldogs with some of my friends I could count the women in there.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Renee,
I tend to agree with you about incestuous couples. It’s super-gross, but then again so is old-people-sex, and as long as they’re consenting adults I guess it’s OK with me. However, I do have one concern, albeit with no data to back it up.
I think that adult incestuous relationships may have extraordinary frequencies of abuse, especially father-daughter relationships. Sexual relations likely start when the daughter is underage. I think by permiting incestuous marriage, you might implicitly sanction the abuse (in the mind of the abuser) and cause more sexual abuse to occur. I think that that point is analogous to my feeling on gun control. There’s nothing inherently wrong with owning an automatic weapon, but widespread ownership may (and I again don’t have the data to back this one up) lead to more murders, particularly cop-killings. Thus, it should be illegal.
I’m not really sure I even buy the argument above. I know it’s a pretty gross topic, and not particularly relevent, but do have any other thoughts that might help me make up my mind?
By lozen
August 16, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this
I posted this before but…some of you weren’t here then! I worked for the Episcopal church. The Father, who used to be a restaurant manager before he became a father, was so freaked about homosexuality he invited one of the “change your orientation thru loving jesus” groups to come to the church to give a workshop. The father had an ex-wife and three teenagers an hour away and a new wife with two babies, bam, bam, and another on the way! He was so busy running back and forth between families he hardly ever made it to the office! And there were countless cases in the news of straight priests and even the local catholic archbishop in trouble for trying to have sex with children and teenagers, in their congregations. After spending all kinds of church money to bring this group to town, one person showed up for the workshop, a woman who couldn’t accept that her daughter was gay! I just kept thinking a better way to spend the money would be workshops teaching congregations to recognize pedophiles so they wouldn’t keep hiring them! This Episcopal father was fired by the congregation a few months later. I don’t know how he supported all the kids then!
By Brandon
August 16, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this
Gary, believe it or not, Jesus can be your answer AND you can be gay. Don’t let your personal views and those loose interpretations of the Bible make you believe otherwise.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
Argy — I’m not sure if I have much of anything to add. Talking about this subject is gross enough within itself. But I do think that if it it’s two consenting adults, then let them be. Maybe it’s a good idea to restrict the parents from their kids though. EWWWW, this whole subject is gross.
But, even as gross as I think it is, if a sister wants to marry her brother, I say knock yourself out. It affects me not at all. It won’t make me do it, it won’t affect my household and it’s not hurting anyone else. I am just very libertarian.
By MarkMyWords
August 16, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
As much of a pain as Taboga is (I would suspect you know this T, so I am not going to apologize;); I have considered his points and they do stump me.
For example, a guy (adult) was caught by his dad having sex with his dog. The father beat the crap out of his son for the act - which is how authorities got involved to begin with. Well, afterwards the guy was being charged with animal cruelty; but claims the dog IS his sexual companion/mate and more-over states the dog finds enjoyment from the act.
Besides laws on the books making bestiality illegal; what reasoning is there to prevent the freedom of this behavior?
These ARE questions society will have to answer as we lift the veil on sexual freedom.
The incest notion is not far off either. There are many cultures that promote family beds where sex occurs with kids present (and some with kids). It just is not considered much ado at all and is the norm in these families.
Could all these perspectives of situations be a result of what we are born into as normal - no more or less?
Why or Why not? Answers?
By taboga
August 16, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Renee,
If you agree with the points, then ask yourself this: Why did society make laws to prohibit incest?
The obvious answer: Incest is detrimental to society as a whole.
The word society has a meaning: Common goals, traditions, morals, values, etc…
If you can imagine a society that cannot make societal rules for the betterment of society as a whole - what are you left with? Chaos.
If we are to say that anything and everything goes according to whatever invented right happens to be in flavor this week - then what are we left with?
We are left with a mass of humanity living in the same geographical location at the same time, with no morals, traditions or values - not knowing up and down, left and right or whether we’re coming or going. Chaos.
No society can survive chaos.
The majority of people do not hate homosexuals as the normal rhetoric suggests. It is simply that the majority of our society does not want to incorporate homosexuality into mainstream society. No more complicated than that. And we cannot strip society of it’s ability to govern society as a whole - based on some notion that everyone should be able to do as they please. That would be advocating: No society at all.
By AL
August 16, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
David, you asked what I would do if I were homosexual, or my child etc. Since I am not I cannot speak on that question with an honest answer. If one of my children, I have two, were a homosexual I think I would sit down and talk to them about their choice but at the same time I hope I would support them in their choice. If I were a homosexual I hopoe I would be an honest homosexual as I am an honest heterosexual. I don’t think their is anything to be ashamed of being a homosexual. As minister I strive to help people be the best they can be wherever they are in their lives. We ar called, speaking from my Christian vocation, to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the sick and those incarcerarted. (Matt 25:31-41) I am not the judge, and I don’t want to be the judge because the Bible, my guidebook to life, tells me that I will be judged as I judge. I try not to judge. The question was whether a homosexual could be “healed.” If that person thinks he/she is sick and wants to be “healed” then he/she can persue a path of healing but underneath there will always be the tendency for the homosexual lifestyle. As an alcoholic I can drink a Coke but I will remain an alcoholic. For me, if you are a homosexual be an honest one and live the best life you can live in the society in which you find yourself.
By lozen
August 16, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this
Incest has been forbidden in almost every culture for a long, long time because it produces deformed children. Egyptian rulers routinely married their brothers and sisters to keep the power in the family. Look at carvings of Amenhotep IV and his daughters and their misshapen heads! He is called the heretic king because he believed in one god instead of the many gods worshipped before and after him. Some religious historians believe Moses was a follower of the Sun King and that’s where Hebrews got the idea of one god. Fascinating, Captain.
By Ken
August 16, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
Tim… I voted against the ammendment. I do not believe the government should prevent gay people from being legally married.
Sct… What happens in the confines of the church (the sacrament of communion for example) is very different than what someone puts into the public (James Dobson/Jerry Falwell). I keep them separate b/c I do not believe that the church should ever impose on society through governmental means or change her positions based on the whims of society. The church should influence society through her actions.
You also use the word accepting. I am not sure what you mean by that. The church ACCEPTS everyone who comes to her. It does not CONDONE everything those people do in their lives. There is a big difference, at least to me.
By Renee
August 16, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Taboga, my response is this. Just because the majority of a society feels a certain way does not mean it is right. Society does not like change. In order to make a society you have to have diversity. In some cultures, the society accepts incest. In other cultures, the society accepts other things. My question to you Taboga would be this. Tonight, I am going home to my wife. She has already cooked me dinner. We may even display affection towards each other (I’m really hoping). How does me doing that affect your life. Not what you believe in, but you. How does it affect you. If you don’t agree with it, don’t do it. If you want to instill in your children that it is wrong, do that (doesn’t mean that your children won’t be gay), but don’t infringe on what makes someone happy. I think snakes are a nasty, nasty reptile and don’t want one around me at all. So I don’t buy one from the store and I choose not to go near them. I can’t tell you not to buy a snake and if my child buys a snake, I won’t agree with it, the snake can’t come in my house but I love my child regardless. (not the best analogy but it works).
By Janet
August 16, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
In my ‘umble opinion, it is impossible for gays to change, no matter how much pressure is put on them. A wonderful man of my acquaintance killed himself rather than come out to his highly religious family. I’m sure there are many others who have committed suicide. Many gays are being pressured on religious grounds. You can go through deprogramming from now till doomsday, but you are what you are. God made you and God loves you. The religious gays will say they’ve been “cured,” even marry some innocent young girl just to prove it, but those men will ruin the lives of their spouses. Shame on those who are so fearful of homosexuals that they continually heap approbation on them and would prefer to deny them the right to live as the rest of us do.
By Adrien
August 16, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this
Renee, I think that was a very good analogy. It galls me that they spend so much time hating something that doesn’t affect their loves one bit. Just like what my straight neighbor does with his wife at night does NOT affect me.
By CommentatorOne
August 16, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
I was not around back then but I can only speculate that the ensuing chaos theory was also used when people wanted to free slaves, allow women to vote, etc etc etc. SOCIETY ADAPTS
By taboga
August 16, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
Renee,
None of that would effect me. Nor do I, or would I logically have any problem with that whatsoever. Nor should it matter to you if I did object to it. I have never made that argument that what you do will effect me - and never will.
It is quite a different matter altogether however, if you expect me to embrace that lifestyle. And you are, in fact, asking me and the vast majority of society to embrace your lifestyle by re-writing the marriage laws to include same-sex marriage.
You simply can’t try and defy human nature. You can’t reasonably expect to be different from the vast majority of people, but yet, at the same time, demand that you not be treated differently.
And just so you will know, IMO, if same-sex marriage is allowed - it will be heterosexuals who make a mockery of marriage not Gays and Lesbians. Folks would have to “think outside the box” in order to understand that though.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
I disagree with your assessment on the origins of taboos against incest. Incest decreases one’s reproductive value, and thus we, like the rest of the animal kingdom, have instincts that make us averse to sexual relations with those we grow up with. It’s easy to base societal rules on that which repulses us, which is why the social taboo is universal.
From what I can glean from your post, you believe in creating laws for the benefit of the whole, and that preserving societal traditions is an means to achieving that end. Thus, your apparent opposition to homosexuality has nothing to do with the act itself, but the fact that its acceptance would be making changes to the traditional moral fabric of a society that could by slippery-slope logic eventually lead to widespread immorality.
I am going to disagree with you in both case and principal. I think that if homosexuality were accepted by the masses, the overall happiness of the society would increase, not just for the homosexuals, but for everybody else who is distressed by an action that is frankly inevitable. I also don’t buy that changing moral systems is necessarily damaging to society’s collective morality. Historically, women were considered to be the property of their husbands, and that it was wrong for her to go against him in any way. I’m sure that you’ll agree that our changing views on this subject has in fact led to a better society. I think that it’s important to always ponder the purpose of our values, rather than sticking to them for tradition’s sake.
By Brandon
August 16, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
Remember this: More people have been killed because of religion than from any other cause. Intolerance of others and their views breeds contempt and hate on both sides - haven’t we seen that enough from those in the Middle East? People need to show common sense and understand most of us don’t want to be changed. We accept who we are and like who we contribute just like heterosexuals do to society. My current issue? As long as I pay full taxes to this country like everyone else, I am equal to everyone and deserve full benefits. Otherwise, I want my $$ back!
By JD
August 16, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
Is it not chaos that we live in right now? War practically everywhere, hate everywhere, untreatable disease, class warfare, starvation, terrorism, pollution, etc. etc. But when pointing the finger at the bad guy some will have you to believe that the blame falls squarely on a imoral minority.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this
Commentator,
My points are made to a much larger issue - they have nothing to do with specific things like Slavery or Homosexuality.
You have to think to understand…
By Renee
August 16, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this
lol @ commentatorone. Very good point! And Argy I agree with you 101%.
Taboga do not embrace my lifestyle if that is not your view. But do deny someone basic human rights because they do not agree with YOUR view is not right. I had to move out of state to get married to the person I wanted to marry. Denying me the ability to do it in Georgia did not make me rethink doing it, I just went to where I could do it. Don’t think the gay population is decreasing, it is increasing and will be on your doorstep like it or not. People don’t like black people. We are going nowhere. Telling us we can’t do something made us work even harder to make sure we had equality. Who are you to say what someone should or should not be able to do. I’m sure everything you do is moral and upstanding. Are you on company time while you contribute to this forum?
By Jack
August 16, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
I’m heart broken. My Cher doll sprung a leak in a place I am unable to patch. I’ll just have to go get a Jessica Simpson doll to wine & dine. LOL
By Craig
August 16, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this
Thanks for your long post Mike, my experience exactly.
By Dboy
August 16, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
It is interesting that Jesus spoke nothing about homosexuals.
Yet most Christians in America can not get away from talking about it.
Jesus spoke widely about the poor, but you don’t seem to concerned about them. You’re more concerned about the private acts of individuals that have nothing to do with you, than your fellowl humans living on the street and going hungry.
I suggest many of you might want to focus more on changing the situation of many in our community who are in need. And less time on the sex activites of two consenting adults.
Only one being is to sit in judgement. When did he hand that task over to many of you?
By MarkMyWords
August 16, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Argy,
You state “I’m sure that you’ll agree that our changing views on this subject has in fact led to a better society.”
I think you could assume that this added freedom of life women created led to a better society for WOMEN; but not in general for society. All one has to do is look at the family unit (or lack of!), kids in daycare, divorce, abuse… the backlash is boundless and we are currently in the throws of issue after issue that this has spun out.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
Argy,
Ok, let’s suppose homosexuality becomes widely accepted with same-sex marriage included.
Now, a 45 year old man and his 22 year old daughter file a lawsuit claiming discrimination against them because they cannot marry one another.
What will be the ruling? What else could it be other than discrimination against them? If we’re going to reconstruct the marriage laws so as to include Gays, how then, can you tell those two “consenting adults” that they don’t have the right to marry?
So after we include the incestuous couples, who’s gonna come next? Those that want to have more than one spouse?
And before long - our marriage laws basically state: Marriage is anything that anyone wants it to be.
What then, is the point of even recognizing marriage period? If it no longer has a specific meaning - what is the point?
By Stay At Home Mom
August 16, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this
The government is responsible for removing these gay and lesbian people from our society, per Leviticus. The day will come when we will win and our government will do what it is supposed to do. Every state will have a gas chamber!! Hoorah!! Hoorah!!
I have contacted Sadie Fields, Shaunti, Pat Robertson, Phelps, Fawell, DeLay, Frist…
The time is near when this won’t be a subject anymore.
By sct
August 16, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Ken and Al, I highly respect your opinions. But with all due respect you both seem to be very much out of the religious mainstream.
Look at the Episcopal church, there is a revolt going on there because of their acceptance of gays. Many would rather leave the church than belong to a church that accepts and does not marginalize gays. The media seldom uses their word when discussing gay issues as it relates to religion.
Al, how many So Baptist churches in this state do you think would allow an openly gay couple to worship and fully partipate as a full member of their church? How many would allow a divorced re-married woman with her new husband in their church? How many might allow a divorced man as a minister? A gay man?
And that is my point, in most cases its not about the sin is it?
The moderate voices, as usual, are not what the public is hearing, the public voice of the church and religion is dominated by conservatives. Look who speaks on church and religious issues on the editorial pages on a weekly basis for the AJC, Shaunti. Diane seems to be non-religious so she is not a voice for the church. But unlike cries of “liberal media, liberal media,” I never hear complaints of “conservative church, consevative church,” when the likes of Robertson, Falwell, and Dobson or the Pope are dominating the airwaves as the voice of christianity.
Where are the moderate religious leaders hiding if they are indeed out there?
By Renee
August 16, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Dboy, right on point.
Why is it when gay marriage is discussed, we get
“the next thing you know, _ this will happen”
Heterosexuals get married, have multiple affairs, get divorced, get married 5 or more times and gays are the ones they don’t want to wreck the institution of marriage. HMMMM.
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
“kids in daycare, divorce, abuse… the backlash is boundless “
Backlash? Abuse?, divorce? And women are responsible for abuse? Leaving an abusive marriage has caused the downfall of families? Yea women love to be single mothers working full time & raising kids on their own. yep ya got me on that one. I’ll bet if women stayed home & just cooked, cleaned, & popped out children, men wouldn’t abuse, cheat or kill them.
That’s a new one. (eye’s rolling)
By Argy
August 16, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this
Taboga,
In my response to Renee (3:47), I gave my concerns with incest, and those concerns apply to polygamy as well. But I do agree with all the points in your 3:17 post, and if the subject ever came to the forefront of discussion, I might support both. I truly haven’t decided.
The point of recognizing marriage is that it makes us happy to do so. I just got married a month ago, and would have done it even if there were no financial benefits. I did it because marriage, to me and most people, is symbolic of everlasting love and commitment to another individual.
I agree that eventually, if people like me have our way, marriage really will be anything that anyone wants it to be. I think that’s OK. I don’t think that marriages like my own will be discouraged or diminished with such a system, and I don’t think that society will be any worse off for it.
By My Wife
August 16, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
Mark My Words, Firstly you are an idiot and secondly, not much of a man. My wife is a PHD. I love being with someone that is intelligent, educated and can spend life eternal with me in witty and attentive conversation. I want and equal partner, not a concubine or a maid. I want someone who can equally share in all aspects of my and her life. We have two beautiful children in college.
Perhaps when you grow up and have some respect for yourself, you will be able to handle the responsibility of having respect for another.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this
Bottom Line: No Gay Marriage. And all the blog-posting in the world won’t change it.
By TT
August 16, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
And you thought the mom in Crawford, Texas was crazy. Stay At Home Mom is advocating sending homosexuals to the gas chamber. I’m sure God is approving of your hateful rhetoric and your support for the death penalty, Psycho Mom. It seems like you forgot Jesus’ advice—the most important Commandment is to “love thy neighbor.” It’s zealots like you that re-enforce the stereotype of the religious right as a bunch of holier-than-thou hatemongers. I can only hope that you aren’t passing your cruelty and ignorance on to your children. In fact, I’ll say a prayer for your entire family. “Forgive her Lord, for she knows not what she does.” I bet you would have been one of the first to put Christ on the Cross—after all, he was a radical.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
MarkMyWords,
Uh, dude, women are a somewhat signicant part of society… that which is better for them and not detrimental for everyone else is better for society. I might touch on divorce tomorrow, but do you really think that abuse has increased with the liberation of women? I really doubt that.
By MarkMyWords
August 16, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this
Eyes rolling like in The exorcist?
yes, you read correct; now can you respond accurately?
No, cause you are another Idiot girl. You do not know your a* from vage. Go home and shake your “big boobs” some more for your boyfriend while looking to trade up. (You sound, from your own description, like a big-haired-texas-floozie - but thats a compliment in your trailer park)
By Whiley
August 16, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this
AWWW what’s wrong hardloser40? Did your date cancel tonight due to your credit card being denied again?
Looks like he’s been erased. Too bad we can’t do that in real life.
By Argy
August 16, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
Bottom Line: No Gay Marriage. And all the blog-posting in the world won’t change it.
Maybe not, but old people dying and new generations reaching voting age will!
By Argy
August 16, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this
TT,
I think she was joking.
By taboga
August 16, 2005 05:09 PM | Link to this
TT,
I would’ve that that you would be down in that ditch with her in Crawford. There’s 50 or 60 of your type down there - you’d have a ball!
By Ken
August 16, 2005 05:31 PM | Link to this
Sct… I don’t know why you consider Al or myself out of the religious mainstream. I simply do not allow my religious views to alter how see the role of government our society. My personal opinion of gay marriage does not influence whether or not I believe it should be made legal.
There are many things that are “legal” that I believe are immoral. There are many things that are “legal” that I believe have contributed to the increasingly depraved state of America today. And given the opportunity I would not make ANY of those things illegal. When I vote, I do my best to separate my the two. I believe the best way to change society is through my personal experience with people rather than through law.
The church has quarrelled over many things. Human sexuality is just a drop in the bucket compared to other, larger issues. We have survived for over two thousand years… Over six thousand if you go back to our Hebrew forefathers…
We are still here and don’t plan on going anywhere.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 07:35 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Comrades,
Don’t forget to read the guest column today by the two esteemed professors at Emory. The panhandling ban is “turning back the clock” according to these two deep thinkers and molders of the young minds. The KKK and Slavery are right around the corner now! Since most of the panhandlers are Black, these two brilliant scholars have concluded that “hatred” towards blacks has reared its ugly head once again.
And I almost forgot - the reason that so many panhandlers are out there to begin with: The Mexicans have taken their jobs away from them!
We should thank the stars for having such intellectual minds in our universities today!
By taboga
August 17, 2005 07:38 AM | Link to this
TT,
That lady was being: Sarcastic. You might want to learn of that as you are “climbing the corporate ladder”.
By Ben
August 17, 2005 07:54 AM | Link to this
Taboga - I’ll add mindless rube and moron to the list of retarded names I have been called on this blog, thanks. I guess the problem with my think-o-meter is that it likes to work beyond a third-grade level. Third graders believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny, but I guess that gives me a better indication of the level of your thinking.
There’s no tap dance. Logical ADULT thinkers know that of the three, homosexuality is the only legal topic you brought up. I guess to some people all three are a perversion or immoral, but still homosexuality is not illegal and the other two are. But if a father wanted to marry his daughter, or if a brother wanted to marry his sister, they would probably have an easier time doing it than two men or two women.
Regardless of whether I agree with either of the three is irrelevant because they don’t affect my life - but the law is what it is.
By Craig
August 17, 2005 07:58 AM | Link to this
taboga says marriage (would become) anything that anyone wants it to be
Yeah, wouldn’t it be awful if free people get to decide for themselves what sort of living arrangements they choose. Here’s the crux of the argument from taboga, Shaunti, Dobson and Perkins. They want the government to enforce their own particular interpretation of whatever Scripture they follow. Other denominations suppport gay marriage? Too bad, we think it’s wrong, so we want the government to enforce our beliefs. Anyone who truly values freedom and individual responstibility should be very afraid of these people.
By JD
August 17, 2005 08:04 AM | Link to this
The panhandling ban may be neccessary but we should wait until the courts decide the big picture, what is and isn’t constitutional. Atlanta city council hasn’t the ability to judge constitutionality. They do have the power to judge what is best for Atlanta’s coffers but little more. I know someone will challenge this ordinance.
By Tony
August 17, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this
Ken and Al
When God is reputed to sanction what He has already clearly forbidden, confronting it is necessary because it’s asking us to confirm their sin when we are Biblically commanded to do just the opposite. As Christ’s ambassadors on earth, we unfaithfully represent Him if a professing believer’s ongoing sin has no effect on our relationship with that believer…which is, in essence, what Paul told the Thessalonians:
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thes 3:6, 14-15)
Likewise, when Paul heard of a Corinthian church member’s incestuous relationship with his stepmother, he ordered the man be excommunicated (1 Cor 5:1-5), then explained the principle of confrontation and, if necessary, expulsion from the community of believers:
Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (1 Cor 5:6-7)
A healthy body purges itself of impurities; the Body of Christ cannot afford to do less. Error like leaven, has a toxic effect.
The pro-gay theology is a strong delusion a seductive accommodation tailor-made to suit the Christian who struggles against homosexual temptations and is considering a compromise. Some who call themselves gay Christians may be truly deceived into accepting it; others might be in simple rebellion. What compels them to believe a lie I cannot say. What I can say is that they are wrong…dead wrong.
But even as I say so, the caution of proper spirit is in order. When we answer to the pro-gay theology, we do so as sinners approaching other sinners, nothing more. I once heard it expressed perfectly:
My message to the homosexual is: We love you. Come and struggle with us against sin. Don’t give in to it.
By Ken
August 17, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this
JD… The only way for the courts to decide whether or not the law is constitutional is for city council to pass the pass the law and then have someone challenge it in court. The court cannot simply drop edicts on laws whenever it chooses on whatever topics it chooses. That’s not their job.
Keep in mind, the new panhandling ordinance was modeled after one in Ft. Lauderdale that WAS deemed constitutional. At least that was the report given on the local news a couple of evenings ago.
By Ken
August 17, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this
Craig… Very good point. Many different denominations look at human sexuality from a variety of angles.
However, as long as different groups are not passing laws to restrict our freedom, then they have every right to say as they choose. Dobson, Falwell, etc. can speak out for or against any issue they choose and if they sway the public to act in a certain way then so be it. That legal right ends, however, once they advocate or promote physical violence. That is crossing the line.
By Whiley
August 17, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this
Panhandling should be illegal. It’s frightening & uncomfortable when these people approach. If they are that bad off, they should be put in a shelter. Clean them up, council them, place them in jobs. If they are mentally ill or completely brain-fried due to drugs & alcohol, put them in a state institution. There should be laws against street harassment.
All right then, how about them gays? If it weren’t for gays, who would style my hair?
By Renee
August 17, 2005 08:44 AM | Link to this
I don’t know how the panhandling comments got started in here but I have an opinion on the City Councils decision.
I think panhandlers have the right to ask anyone they like for money, not harass people but ask. Whatever they use it for, I don’t care. They didn’t obtain it illegally so what difference does it make. I think people try to act like poor people, beggars don’t exist. They do exist, some legitimate, some not. This has gone on since the beginning of time.
And Taboga, whether you choose to see it or not, racism does exist today. I see you don’t like black people, homosexuals, anyone else to add to your hate list??
Personally I don’t give money, especially to an able bodied man. But there are men out there who are disabled, no family, dealt a bad hand by the government etc. I don’t see any harm in them asking anyone. I know race has been brought up and I don’t think it is totally a racial issue but there are some elements argumentatively racial.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this
Craig,
Let me see if you can answer a question that requires some thought.
The current marriage laws of the states - does not allow same-sex marriage, right? Now, if the marriage laws are to be changed to include same-sex marriage - who needs to change them? Isn’t it the State that would need to change the marriage laws?
Now, who is the State? Is the State not the people? So, in essence, you are asking the people of Georgia to change the marriage laws so as to allow same-sex marriage — yet you think the State should stay out of it…?
That would be akin to applying for a loan from the bank and then stating: “What business is it of the bank to determine who gets a loan…”
You can’t petition the State to allow same-sex marriage and at the same time - say it’s no business of the State who marrys who.
By Jack
August 17, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this
The suburbanites will not frequent the downtown area unless the city gets rid of the panhandlers. When a big black man approaches grandma and asks her for money, she will give, then go home and not come back.
By CommentatorOne
August 17, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this
Taboga
Yesterday, those simply examples of society changing the rules as it progresses and the conservatives complaining as it happens.
On the direct incest, the European monarchies were one big incestous family for centuries, so not really sure what kind of problems it caused, other than deformed offspring.
but Argy got it best with the voting comment. If you look at history, you will see that your kind of conservatism dies by the wayside as society progresses. If you have ever killed a rattlesnake with a shovel, you know it strikes out as its head is being severed. How I read the actions/posts of conservatives. Rattlesnakes striking out. Chop Chop
By Lyrazel
August 17, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
The government is responsible for removing these gay and lesbian people from our society, per Leviticus. The day will come when we will win and our government will do what it is supposed to do. Every state will have a gas chamber!! Hoorah!! Hoorah!!
Nice religious view, StayAtHomeMom. Jesus would be proud of you. However, my question would be: Isnt there a commandment in your holy book Thou Shalt Not Kill? My version does not have asterics on it that say: Thou Shalt Not Kill * Exceptions to this rule include…. A big problem with your suggestion is that you would be creating another government agency, which requires more government spending and hiring workers who tend to want benefits and unions and tend to vote liberal. So, I am guessing your idea is to free all animals from the pounds and imprison gays into the available cages…where there are already gas chambers available in every state, almost every city in America. Is this a job you want church ministers/pastors/priests or church goers to assume?
By CommentatorOne
August 17, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
Personally I am going to stay away from an environment where I cannot exist without being hassled by someone on the street. my first question is always “Now just because I am existing in this space, WHY ON EARTH do you think I wanted to engage in some BS with YOU? Enlighten me here.” Usually shuts them up, and then I make a point of staying away from there if it happens twice.
By David
August 17, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
taboga, you automatically throw out the word “leftist” it seems for anything you disagree with. I have voted Republican since I could start voting in ‘84. I agree with the panhandling ban. I’d like to see Social Security reformed. The tax system changed.
And gays should have the right to marry and annoy you.
By raylene
August 17, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this
Gay marriage is legal is some places. in fact, i am pretty sure they are trying to make it legal in california. at least in san francisco. i know that its legal in canada. i personally think that it should be legal everywhere. if one man is ok to marry several women, how come two men/women can’t get married to each other. no one is asking for humans to be able to marry animals.
By Tony
August 17, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this
Test
By taboga
August 17, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life.
If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.”
-Joseph Stalin
By Heather
August 17, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
Tony, I really liked what you had to say. My pastor recently preached a sermon from the scripture you quoted. You summed it up nicely.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this
And Taboga, whether you choose to see it or not, racism does exist today. I see you don’t like black people, homosexuals, anyone else to add to your hate list??
Adding you the the pre-programmed moron list…
By Al
August 17, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this
sct, by choice I have turned my back on the SBC, or any other denominational worship. Have you noticed how those with the most hot air are heard the most. For me my faith is a personal thing that I will hold close to my heart. I do not agree with the likes of Falwell et al.
As I said before, in my faith, God will judge all of us, straight, homosexual, pedophile, thief, alcoholic, etc. and we will be judged alike. Just having the name Falwell, Dobson, or even George W. is not a guarantee for entry into Heaven. Personally, since we are all children of God, we will all end up in that place, whatever that place may be for you. It is ashame we spend so much energy on arguing about things that will never be settled. Let’s spend the time on loving one another, that would also include Hard40.
By Chilao
August 17, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this
way to go, alright, the weekly Stalin quote
how about another one:
“He who cast the vote decides nothing, he who counts the vote, decides everything” Joseph Stalin
By Scalia
August 17, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
*America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life.
If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.�
-Joseph Stalin*
*By taboga
August 9, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this
Ken,
Is the amount of beer a person drinks - commensurate with the size of the can?
Why would my SUV be considered a “gas guzzler� when the actual gas used by it is far less than the average economy vehicle?
If a person was truly concerned about gasoline consumption - they would be in favor of rationing: A specific amount over a specific timeframe - to be put in whichever vehicle you choose.
But why in the world would we bothered with any of this nonsense! We are not running out of oil. We are not polluting the air nor all these other dreadful predictions.
The earth has an abundance of resources - we haven’t even scratched the surface yet.
As far as any “plan� goes, the very best “plan� that we could come up with, would be a “plan� to rid once and for all - the FATALISTIC attitude that we seem to have about everything!*
Wasn’t your quote from Stalin, fatalistic?
By Mara
August 17, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this
Uh, folks…incest was prohibited because when related persons breed, it’s more likely (than if non-related persons bred) that their offspring will have potentially debilitating traits. It’s estimated that a 1% rise in inbreeding will result in an 11% increase in genetic desease. Look at the royal families of Europe, or the physical deformities of the Pharaohs, for example. The prohibition is only peripherally related to social mores. Much more relevant to medical rational. Which doesn’t really translate to the homosexual arguement since monogomous homosexuals are no more likely to contract a desease than monogomous hetrosexuals. That being said, one would assume that marriage encourages monogomy, therefore marriage, same-sex or hetro, should be encouraged by a health conscious society. Nor, in my opinion, is the arguement relevent to whether the so-called faith-based therapy can change “preferance”. It may change behavior, which is quite different than preferance.
By JD
August 17, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this
Ken if you actually read my post you will see that you are actually regurgitating what I already said, which was “Somebody will challenge this ordinance through the courts”. And if the courts say panhandling is uncostitutional then so be it, but I doubt the court will go that way. And if it does here in Georgia, we should only expect this case to move higher.
By TT
August 17, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
Taboga, put down your flag long enough to think for yourself. You are advocating that the State base its laws on spirituality and morality. Laws are based on reason and logic, and in their intrinsic form, most protect property rights.
Moreover, everyone has their own interpretation of God—for most it’s a personal, private relationship. So, whose spirituality should we adopt? Yours? It’s obvious that you have no love for your fellow man, you’ve said that you’re not religious, and I doubt you are a beacon of morality. If we adopted your view on what makes a nation great we would be fighting in the streets over bread…survival of the fittest, leave the weak behind. It’s quite amusing to hear you and others preach about the “evils” of homosexuality when you’re busy lambasting your fellow man. America is not in danger of collapse because of homosexuality, it is in danger of falling because the so called “Compassionate Conservatives” have turned the political space into a forum for hate speech, bigotry, racism, and misogyny. They talk of family values while spitting in the faces of their fellow man.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
Wasn’t your quote from Stalin, fatalistic?
And that we be a big negative there Mo.
The Stalin quote was merely pointing one of the objectives of the Communists. And if you take a look around you - you might notice some strange similarities.
Hate that you had to dig so deep in the archives - to be so wrong.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.
-Vladimir Lenin
By Renee
August 17, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this
Gay marriage is legal in some states. I just moved to a state where it is perfectly legal.
Italic Now, who is the State? Is the State not the people? So, in essence, you are asking the people of Georgia to change the marriage laws so as to allow same-sex marriage � yet you think the State should stay out of it…?
Yes, the state should change the laws to make marriage inclusive to anyone that wants to take part, as long as they are two consenting adults and then the STATE should stay out of it.
Government is way too involved any everyone’s life. They want to tell people what to do, what not to do, how to think, it’s getting out of control. Church and state are separate and should be kept separate at all levels.
You can call me a moron Taboga, but I am far from that. I can discuss an issue and look at both sides fairly. You see things your way and your way only. You are not even willing to open your eyes to another way of life, thinking or anything. Everyone does not think like you, that does not make them moronic or wrong. It means as an individual that person has their opinion. Do I disagree with you? On most points I have, but I have agreed with you on a couple of points as well.
My personal opinion is you have a dislike for certain groups of people for whatever reason which is fine. Being black and lesbian, there are a lot of people which do not like me. But, still Taboga be respectful towards opinions, differences, whatever they might be.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
Mara,
You are missing the point. It is irrelevant what damage may be done with incest - we are not concerned about that. We need only be concerned about the “rights” of people. If we have to commit societal suicide to uphold some absurd notion of “rights” - then that is what we must do!
By Scalia
August 17, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this
*Argy,
Ok, let’s suppose homosexuality becomes widely accepted with same-sex marriage included.
Now, a 45 year old man and his 22 year old daughter file a lawsuit claiming discrimination against them because they cannot marry one another.
What will be the ruling? What else could it be other than discrimination against them? If we’re going to reconstruct the marriage laws so as to include Gays, how then, can you tell those two “consenting adults� that they don’t have the right to marry?
So after we include the incestuous couples, who’s gonna come next? Those that want to have more than one spouse?
And before long - our marriage laws basically state: Marriage is anything that anyone wants it to be.
What then, is the point of even recognizing marriage period? If it no longer has a specific meaning - what is the point?*
Yeah, admit that you are wrong. This is fatalistic, too, just like your quote. You rail against fatalistic rhetoric when you think that it is the leftists, and then lobby for it when it supports your argument.
Conservatives have the hardest time admitting when they are wrong.
I will continue to dig in the archives and make you look like an arse every time.
As for the mo part, that was cute.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this
Correction Taboga. If incest does cause damage then it is affecting people. You should not be able to marry in incest then reproduce if it is bringing a physical and/or mental deformity to an innocent child. That makes it not the same as same sex marriage. That child has a right to a normal life. While physical and/or mental deformities still exist there are somethings that can prevent some of them (incest, drug abuse).
By taboga
August 17, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this
My personal opinion is you have a dislike for certain groups of people for whatever reason which is fine. Being black and lesbian, there are a lot of people which do not like me. But, still Taboga be respectful towards opinions, differences, whatever they might be
And that is what makes you a moron. You, as most Leftists, automatically assume that anyone who does not agree with you - must HATE something.
How on earth you dim-wit Leftists can accuse someone of “Hate” and then turn right around and demand that those you just accused, be respectful - falls nothing short of complete imbecility!
By Renee
August 17, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
Taboga — if an innocent child may be affected mentally or physically by their parents being related, then it should not be legal.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
Did I use the word HATE or did I use DISLIKE. Obviously it is something that you DISLIKE, therefore you do not agree with it. Usually, you like the things you agree with and dislike the things you don’t agree with it. Generally.
And I’m the moron. Oh, and I am not a leftist.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
Scalia,
Fatalistic:
The doctrine that all events are predetermined by fate and are therefore unalterable.
Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.
Now, would you like to explain how the Stalin quote or your last posting of mine - fit the definition of: Fatalistic.
You may be confusing the word with: Pessimism or Defeatism - I am not sure. But you pal, are the one making an a** out of yourself.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this
The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Bourgeoisie is of course: Capitalists.
By Tony
August 17, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
“Sexual orientation simply cannot be changed,” a gay psychiatrist says confidently, warning “there may be severe emotional and social consequences in the attempt to change from homosexuality to heterosexuality.” This argument draws heavily from the social sciences, as it must; the Bible supports no such claim. Indeed, St. Paul makes the opposite remark, clearly stating homosexuals can change, when he asserts:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders… will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6: 9-11)
Still, the “I-tried-to-change-but-I-couldn’t” argument is quite popular among homosexuals who have accepted their orientation and insist others do the same.
The “unchangeable” argument is misleading. While many mental health authorities believe homosexuality is unchangeable, many others believe it can be changed.
In 1970, the Kinsey Institute reported that 84% of the homosexuals they studied had shifted their sexual orientation at least once; 32% of them reported a second shift, and 13% reported five changes, during their lifetime, in their sexual orientation!
The Director of the New York Center for Psychoanalytic Training, no doubt aware such changes occur, remarked on the “misinformation spread by certain circles that homosexuality is untreatable,” saying it did “incalculable harm to thousands.”
Dr. Irvine Bieber concluded (after treating over a hundred homosexuals) that “a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.”
Sex researchers Masters and Johnson (hardly a pair of standard-bearers for the traditional view!) said the “homosexuality cannot be changed” concept was “certainly open to question.” Drs. Wood and Dietrich, writing about the effectiveness of treatment for homosexuality, confirmed “all studies which have attempted conversions from homosexuality to heterosexuality have had significant success.” And the New Report of the Kinsey Institute explains people do not “necessarily maintain the same sexual orientation throughout their lives,” then explained that “programs helping homosexuals change report varying degrees of success.”
But no one says it better than Stanton Jones, Chair of Psychology at Wheaton College:
Anyone who says there is no hope (for change) is either ignorant or a liar. Every secular study of change has shown some success rate, and persons who testify to substantial healings by God are legion.
For the sake of argument, suppose it could be proven that homosexuality, as a condition, is unchangeable-that no amount of prayer, counseling or efforts of any sort could make a homosexual become attracted to the opposite sex. What then? Should that change our view of homosexual behavior as being sinful? Hardly. There’s no contingency in any scriptural reference to any kind of sin, in the Old or New Testament, saying: “Thou shalt not do thus and so!” (“Unless, of course, you tried hard to change, went for prayer and counseling, and found you just could not stop wanting to do thus and so. If that’s the case, then thus and so is no longer a sin. It’s an inborn, immutable gift and you can indulge it!”)
The Apostle Paul’s thorn in the flesh, whatever it may have been, was unchangeable; despite his prayers for deliverance, God allowed it to remain. But it certainly was not desirable (2 Cor 12:7-9). Other conditions-alcoholism, for example, or various addictions-are widely believed to be unchangeable, and have to be coped with daily.
That hardly makes them desirable, natural or God-ordained.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
And Taboga, whether you choose to see it or not, racism does exist today. I see you don’t like black people, homosexuals, anyone else to add to your hate list??
Renee,
Tell you what I’ll do. I will go down to the bus-stop this afternoon and ask the elementary school kids if they think you are accusing me of “hate” in that statement above.
By Scalia
August 17, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
Let’s see…you were the one that used fatalistic on August 9th. You were referencing the environment. Now, you are referencing society. So if anybody used the word wrong, that would be you, buddy.
By James
August 17, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this
The subject of this forum is “Can Christian counseling change sexual preference?â€?. It was established early on in this blog that while you can change sexual behavior you can not change an individual’s sexual preference. Since there is no logical, intellectual, or scientific way to win this argument, people like Two Boogers have cleverly managed to change the subject with the whole sexual perversion thing. No one is harmed when two same-sex consenting adults come together in a relationship. The key word is control.
Two Boogers if you want to live in a world where personal rights are curtailed, why don’t you move to Iran. It’s obvious that you don’t feel comfortable living in a democracy where people are so obsessed with life, liberty, and pursuing happiness. In this country people are actually working towards the right to be with who they want regardless of whether it conflicts with the Christian faith. They think that as long as they don’t harm others and have consent they can experience the type of sexual relationship that they want. Two Boogers, if you moved to Iran, you won’t have to worry about gay and lesbians. Plus women know their place and will stay out of your way. If you find out someone is gay you can report them and they will be arrested and possibly killed. I think you will be a lot happier over there. I know I will be a lot happier once you’re gone.
By Ken
August 17, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Tony… I am with you when you say to anyone committing sin:
“We love you. Come and struggle with us against sin. Don’t give in to it.”
As I have have mentioned MANY times in the past, there are uncounted actions, lifestyles, etc. that the state deems legal but we as memebers of the church find immoral. I would list them, but the BLOG would be full.
The question is: How do we as the church coexist in a secular society? I believe the answer is that we live our lives the way the Holy Spirit leads us. That is more than giving to the poor. That includes making decisions about our vocations, where we live, what we do on a daily basis, trusting that God, not our own human actions, will provide for us in all situations.
If we do that, our light will shine bright. It will shine so bright that others will desire to be like us. They will desire to have what we have and we will be in a better position to share with them.
Remember… God has given us all free will. He never forces us into anything. We have the freedom to live with God or without God (sin means without). Likewise, we should not force people into anything. Men and women must come to the realization on their own, through their own experience with the Holy Spirit.
The scripture says “I stand at the door and knock…”
It doesn’t say “I knock on your door and then barge in if you don’t open it.”
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
Taboga � if an innocent child may be affected mentally or physically by their parents being related, then it should not be legal.
That doesn’t matter - we’re talking about “rights” here. See how it all works? When you Gays and Lesbians want to adopt children, any concerns about the welfare and stability of children by those who oppose the adoption is considered: Hate! “You HATE homosexuals and that is why you don’t want us to have children!”
So I guess you HATE people who would marry of the same blood!
By Renee
August 17, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this
Well Taboga, when you quoted me of using the word HATE, you did so using a totally different quote. For your reference here is your comment:
My personal opinion is you have a dislike for certain groups of people for whatever reason which is fine. Being black and lesbian, there are a lot of people which do not like me. But, still Taboga be respectful towards opinions, differences, whatever they might be
And that is what makes you a moron. You, as most Leftists, automatically assume that anyone who does not agree with you - must HATE something.
How on earth you dim-wit Leftists can accuse someone of “Hate� and then turn right around and demand that those you just accused, be respectful - falls nothing short of complete imbecility!
You were responding to my comment in which I used DISLIKE. You are quite the genius yourself and I only hope to attain your intelligence level. But I am not on this forum to argue back and forth with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this
Taboga - personally, with the genetic screening technologies available today, the only reason I see for restricting relational marriages would be in the case of parent/adult child. The parent/child relationship is inherently coercive, therefore, whether the relationship is “consentual” is debatable.
Bigamy is more problematic. While I support people being able to marry whom they wish, the inheretance laws and rights of property, health care, attorney priveleges, etc make the bigamy arguement much, much murkier. It’s one thing to say that a spouse has the right to make decisions for an incapacitated individual. In the case of bigamy, the state would therefore have to make decisions on who would have that legal right in the case of multiple spouses. It would ultimately end up with some being considered “second-class” members of a marital union.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
My partner and I have two children, both of whom are well adjusted and stable. Where is there creedence to the argument that any children we adopt will have this great suffering. We do know for a fact that incest causes mental and physical deformities, which is totally different by some peoples opinions that a child of gay parents will be unstable and not adjusted. Not even the same. And no, I don’t hate anyone. If two people get married and they want to that;s fine but it’s not fair to bring a child in the world that has a high percentage of being deformed. I would say the same to a drug abuser.
Also the children that gay people end up adopting are the chldren that heterosexual couples, not homosexual couples, have abandoned and abused.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this
Tony,
When God is reputed to sanction what He has already clearly forbidden, confronting it is necessary because it’s asking us to confirm their sin when we are Biblically commanded to do just the opposite. As Christ’s ambassadors on earth, we unfaithfully represent Him if a professing believer’s ongoing sin has no effect on our relationship with that believer…which is, in essence, what Paul told the Thessalonians:
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. (2 Thes 3:6, 14-15)
Likewise, when Paul heard of a Corinthian church member’s incestuous relationship with his stepmother, he ordered the man be excommunicated (1 Cor 5:1-5), then explained the principle of confrontation and, if necessary, expulsion from the community of believers:
Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast. (1 Cor 5:6-7)
A healthy body purges itself of impurities; the Body of Christ cannot afford to do less. Error like leaven, has a toxic effect.
The pro-polyester theology is a strong delusion a seductive accommodation tailor-made to suit the Christian who struggles against stylish clothing temptations and is considering a compromise. Some who call themselves well-dressed Christians may be truly deceived into accepting it; others might be in simple rebellion. What compels them to believe a lie I cannot say. What I can say is that they are wrong…dead wrong.
But even as I say so, the caution of proper spirit is in order. When we answer to the pro-polyester theology, we do so as sinners approaching other sinners, nothing more. I once heard it expressed perfectly:
My message to the polyester-wearer is: We love you. Come and struggle with us against sin. Don’t give in to it.
By Brian Curtis
August 17, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this
Most of the comments about “curing” homosexuals presuppose that homosexuality is either a sickness or a sin. Have they offered anything to support either assumption (other than their own narrowminded superstition, of course)?
Haven’t seen anything yet… and I doubt we will. Because they have no medical evidence, or even any logic, to support that assumption. It’s pure, visceral reaction on their part; they simply find gays “nasty” or “offensive” somehow, and want them to go away.
Not gonna happen, losers. Gays have always been part of the human race, and they always will be. Brainwashing some of them into pretending they’re not as God made them doesn’t change that; calling them “wicked and sinful” won’t change that; and passing discriminatory laws won’t change that. Gays are people just like you and me… and eventually we’ll be smart enough as a society to treat them that way.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this
Two Boogers if you want to live in a world where personal rights are curtailed, why don’t you move to Iran.
James, I will live where I damned well please! And that will be right here watching you Leftists flail about destroying yourselves!
It’s obvious that you don’t feel comfortable living in a democracy where people are so obsessed with life, liberty, and pursuing happiness.
I am extremely happy living in a democracy. And as such, we make our laws via elected legislatures who represent the desires of the majority of the people. It is people like you who want to force your beliefs on the society as a whole. How many states put the Gay Marriage issue up to a vote in the last election? And not ONE approved of it! It is YOU who is in the minority and it is YOU who wants to force YOUR beliefs on everyone else!
In this country people are actually working towards the right to be with who they want regardless of whether it conflicts with the Christian faith. They think that as long as they don’t harm others and have consent they can experience the type of sexual relationship that they want.
I don’t give a damn about who’s “working towards” what. And they can have any “sexual relationship” they choose - but they’re not going to force the rest of society to embrace it and legitimize it be re-writing the marriage laws!
Two Boogers, if you moved to Iran, you won’t have to worry about gay and lesbians. Plus women know their place and will stay out of your way.
I don’t worry about Gays and Lesbians - period. Gays and Lesbians are inconsequential to me.
If you find out someone is gay you can report them and they will be arrested and possibly killed. I think you will be a lot happier over there. I know I will be a lot happier once you’re gone.
Childish gibberish - soliciting sympathy.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this
Renee,
You are getting more convoluted by the minute. I will let you know if those school children can figure out if you accused me of hate or not.
By Tony
August 17, 2005 11:52 AM | Link to this
Ken
A recent poll showed 66% (two thirds) of Americans no longer believe there is such a thing as “absolute truth.” More disturbing, though, was the fact that 53% of those not believing in absolute truth identified themselves as born again Christians; 75% of whom were mainline Protestants.
If “absolute truth” no longer exists, even in the minds of half the “born-again” population, it logically follows that doctrine, and the Bible itself, is given less credence.
Pollster George Gallup Jr. noticed this in The People’s Religion: American Faith in the 90’s. “While religion is highly popular in America,” he states, “it is to a large extent superficial. There is a knowledge gap between American’s stated faith and the lack of the most basic knowledge about that faith.”
In short, self-identified Christians in the 90s are Biblically ignorant. Doctrine has become less important than good feelings; indeed, a USA Today survey found that, of the 56% of Americans who attend church, 45% did so because “it’s good for you,” 26% went for peace of mind. Specific doctrines, the pollster noted, seemed unimportant.
If the notions of “truth” and “doctrine” are becoming unimportant to Christians, can the idea of “sin” hope to survive? Probably not; 25% of Christians polled in 1993 believed sin to be “an outdated concept.” “The awareness of sin used to be our shadow,”
Cornelius Plantinga writes in Christianity today “Christians hated sin, feared it, flew from it. But now the shadow has faded. Nowadays, the accusation you have sinned is often said with a grin.”
But the gospel truth is never so accommodating. John the Baptist was ferocious with the Pharisees (Mt 3:7-8), Jesus trounced Peter when he tried to interfere with the His mission, (Mt 16:22-23) and Paul was willing to publicly rebuke hypocrisy, even when committed by a respected disciple (Gal 2:11-14). To be sure, there is a place for gentleness. But never at the expense of truth.
Yet today the gap between truth and modern practice has been large enough to allow any number of false (albeit “nice”) ideas to enter the church, creating a mentality that says, “Let’s all get along without conflict, shall we?” Author J. Stephen Lang attempts to explain this phenomenon:
Love is understandable-warm and fuzzy. Doctrine, on the other hand, sounds cold, difficult and demanding.
By James
August 17, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
I see toboga is still harping on the incest/pedophilia thing. It is actually very clever for him to try to equate homosexuality with these two sexual perversions. It is obvious that with a same-sex marriage everyone involved has given consent. That is clearly not the case with incest/pedophilia.
The bottom line is that a child CAN NOT grant consent for any type of sexual activity. The clearly lack the power, mental maturity, knowledge, etc., etc., etc., to grant consent. That is why you wouldn’t let a 15 year old sign a contract or check them into a hospital for surgery. There is no way to argue this point if it isn’t already obvious.
Incest is thankfully rare but when it occurs it is often heterosexual activity. This whole discussion is about homosexuality. Secondly, incest usually stems directly from pedophilia. Third, incest often causes genetic defects. In all the advanced democracies where same-sex marriages are allowed, incest is still illegal.
Again toboga is very clever for trying to tie incest and homosexuality together. It is a rather deceitful way to move the discussion away from civil rights. The fact remains that there is no outcry for legalizing incest in this or any other country in the world. The discussion of incest is irrelevant to the discussion of same-sex relationships but it serves a sinister purpose for toboga. The problem for people like toboga is that it can be a challenge to get laws on the books that deny people their rights in this country. You have to resort to a variety of underhanded tactics. Grossing people out with a discussion of incest and pedophilia is just one of many techniques that fundamentalists use to force their way of life on everyone who lives in this great nation.
By MarkMyWords
August 17, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this
So an idoit (Renee) wrote:
� if an innocent child may be affected mentally or physically by their parents being related, then it should not be legal.
Well, if you all remember, that innocent child does not exist. It is only a clump of cells - so by your own logic, we can just abort the “cyst-like-mass that is living off your body.” See the web you create? No? As I figured.
Surprised you did not say this yourself Taboga!
By Argy
August 17, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this
Taboga � if an innocent child may be affected mentally or physically by their parents being related, then it should not be legal.
Then again, the odds of a child being born with Down Syndrome greatly increases when the mother is older. Should it be illegal to marry if you are a woman over 35?
By sct
August 17, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this
Tony, would you please list your sins here so we can judge you.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
MMW,
I’m not surprised. Taboga is smarter than that.
By Tim
August 17, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this
I love the ‘where does it end?’ argument… if we allow gays to marry then brothers will want to marry their sisters… well hasn’t heterosexual marriage led to gays wanting the right to marry… since heterosexual marriages have led to gays wanting to marry then by the reasoning ‘where does it end?’ shouldn’t we just outlaw marriage alltogether? because since heterosexuals are allowed to marry it has opened the door to many other groups wanting the same right
By Mara
August 17, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this
I notice that the most prevalent argument about homosexuality hinges on whether you are Christian or not. Any law or ban based solely on one religeons dogma and prejudice should be quickly challenged and overturned. All people should be equal under the law and choosing the tenets of one religeon over another violates the first amendment. Basically, it legitimates Christian dogma over more tolerant religeons, like Wicca, or Buddism. Taboga says that society shouldn’t be forced to embrace homosexual relationships, though he never explains exactly how he’s being forced to have one.
By Ken
August 17, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Tony… Again, I do not refute anything you say. I agree wholeheartedly with your message. I simply believe you and I differ on how best to deliver that message in today’s society.
I am not so sure John The Baptist would act today as he had two thousand years ago. That doesn’t mean his message changed, it simply means his delivery would.
We live in a society where truth becomes more relative as we become more diverse. We are truly unique to virtually every other civilization in the history of the world on that basis alone.
We as the church MUST NOT lose sight of the Biblical basis for the faith. Old and New Testament determine the glasses through we which we view the world and our role in it. However, we MUST ABSOLUTELY develop new methods to engage the world. If not, we will never reach those who need it the most.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
I think this week’s topic has led to another important question:
Where’s Eaton?
By Stay At Home Mom
August 17, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
I don’t believe in killing anyone. I take back part of my last post. However, I do not believe homosexuals should not be allowed to freely roam as they wish through our society. They should have their own place to go (like lepers once did) and should have to go to that place when they are sure they are homosexual. Of course, they could choose counseling to take away the homosexuality and become heterosexual. If they choose not to take the therapy, then have to go to a special place/area of the country.
The gays and lesbians caused me to have breast cancer! How you ask? The gays and lesbians brought down the morality of the country to the lowest extent that my first husband could not control himself and had an affair. He eventually left me for her. If the morality of this country had been to the high extent it once was he never would have cheated on me, I would have not have gotten a divorce and had biological children early in life. I did not meet my present husband and his children until later in life. Time clicked by and I have not had biological children of my own. Had I conceived and had a baby, my getting breast cancer would have greatly diminished or been non-existant. Studies have shown that women who have a child have a greatly lower chance of breast cancer.
By James
August 17, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this
Toboga you stated — “I don’t worry about Gays and Lesbians - period. Gays and Lesbians are inconsequential to me.”
If you “don’t worry about gays and lesbians� and if they are “inconsequential� to you then why do you care so deeply about what goes on in their personal lives? Why are you so adamant about denying them the right to be with one another? Why are you so happy when their rights are taken away? Why are you OK with the fact that someone can spend 20 years together paying taxes, raising children, and volunteering in their communities but be denied the right to visit one another in the hospital? If you think it’s ok to limit their freedoms in this way then your feelings obviously go beyond being “inconsequential�.
By sct
August 17, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this
Born again president George Bush starts a war that has killed at least 100,000 people and all you christians want to talk about is gay sex. Wow. Praise.
By Heather
August 17, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
Sct, you keep asking those who disagree with you to list their sins so that you can judge them.
One of my biggest sins is self-pity. When I’m tired I tend to feel a little sorry for myself and have been known to whine about it. Sometimes being a single parent is exhausting and I wish there was someone who could run an errand or handle a discipline problem.
Another of my big sins is anger. I have been known to fly off the handle when pushed too far. My son is probably the best at pushing my buttons. I yell at him on occasion and then feel terrible afterwards, I’m working on that one. He and I are good at apologizing to each other though, so maybe something good comes out of it in the end.
Yet another sin is laziness. My house is not the cleanest in the world. When I have time off from work and childraising, the last thing I want to do is clean my house. So I don’t do it until it has to be done then I berate myself for letting it get so bad. My grass needs to be cut right now.
My point is that I am trying to live by my faith. I TRY not to sin. I am going to do it however, I am not perfect. When I screw up, which I do daily, I ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again. Before I can do that however, I have to know these things are sinful.
I am not trying to hurt anyone with the things I have said on this board. A few times I have spoken harsher than maybe I should have. I do not hate gays by any means. I have faces, names, and stories of so many gay people in my head. When discussions like this come up, I think of these people and hate is the last thing on my mind.
I have lost my temper on this board once or twice. This was brought about mostly because of the disrespect verbalized against someone I love very much, God. It makes me mad to hear some of these things said.
But I want every person on this board to know that no matter who you are sleeping with, God loves you. He wants you to know Him. He wants to have a relationship with you. When and if you are willing to listen to what He has to say about the best way to live your life, now and for all eternity, you can look Him up, He’s in The Book.
By Stay At Home Mom
August 17, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
“However, I do not believe homosexuals should not be allowed to freely roam as they wish through our society.”
I meant — I do not believe homosexuals “should be” freely allowed to roam as they wish through our society
By Adrien
August 17, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this
SHOCKED…
I was shocked, confused, bewildered as I entered Heaven’s door, Not by the beauty of it all, by the lights or its decor.
But it was the folks in Heaven who made me sputter and gasp— the thieves, the liars, the sinners, the alcoholics, the trash.
There stood the kid from seventh grade who swiped my lunch money twice. Next to him was my old neighbor who never said anything nice.
Herb, who I always thought was rotting away in hell, was sitting pretty on cloud nine, looking incredibly well.
I nudged Jesus, “What’s the deal? I would love to hear Your take. How’d all these sinners get up here? God must’ve made a mistake.
And why’s everyone so quiet, so somber? Give me a clue.” “Hush, child,” said He. “They’re all in shock. No one thought they’d see you.”
Judge NOT…
~Be kind. We’re all in this together.~
By Adrien
August 17, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this
Stay at home mom,
I have heard some stupid logic in my time, but yours beat all. Your husband left you for new booty. What the hell does homsexuality have to do with her booty? and your comments about putting us in a “special place” there was a place just like that in the early 40’s and I m sure you would have supported it. It was called Nazi Germany. Geez your’e dumb as hell, but even you have a right to say what you said.
By Eric
August 17, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Homosexuals brought down the morals in society? HAHAHA. I haven’t heard anything that funny in a while.
Society was always like this, just hidden under a veil. The philosophy was: “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” Affairs were going on in the sixties, the forties, the fifties, etc. The only difference is: there was no divorce. The man stayed with his wife and his mistress or mistresses.
Today, people are a lot freer. They express themselves, and let everything hang out, so to speak.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
Bravo, stay at home mom i could’nt have said it better!!
By Tony
August 17, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this
Ken,
Paul predicts an abandoment of truth for the sake of personal fulfillment:
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. (2 Tim 4:3-4)
Self over truth, man over God. Can a Christian be so deceived? Evidently. Pual referred to the Galatian church as having been “bewitchted” (Gal 3:1), and Jesus warned that a prominent sign of the days before His coming would be an increase in deception (Mt 24:14).
Ours is to simply speak the truth, trusting Him to quicken it to our hearers.
By Scalia
August 17, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this
By taboga
August 9, 2005 11:10 AM
And I know a guy who got cancer after moving to Colorado. He didn’t have cancer here. What can we deduce from that?
Are you going to use this same analogy, Taboga? I wanted to make sure to have it handy for you for the Stay at home Mom.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this
Hmmm, “GULLIBLE” seems to be written on the foreheads of Adrien, Eric, and LimpyAlky
By kimberly
August 17, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this
Tony, do you think this increase in deception is happening now? For example, the “Christians” in America are buying into the calculated propaganda that their leader is a “godly” man who cares about “family values.” Yet, his policies benefit the richest among us and hurt the poor. Then they blame the poor. These same American “Christians” also chose to believe lies about a war hero, calling him a traitor, while they believed in the saintliness of a man who was AWOL and doing drugs durign the last war… a man who claimed to bring dignity back to the White House, while filling it with spiteful vengeance instead, protecting lies and liars, all the while promoting bloodshed instead of peace. These same “Christians,” with regard to how to treat their fellow human beings, seem to think judgment, ridicule, hate, and discrimiation are “godly” values, while “love they neighbor” is an evil communist plot instead of what Christ taught us.
Do you think the end is near?
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this
Adriene, i don’t know which Bible you are reading. In revelations it clearly says, those who commit fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and those who add erroneous passages to the Bible will not enter the kingdom of God. Adriene, You will certainly go to HELL. Read the good book tonight for clarification. You obviously don’t read the bible to make such stupid statements. You homos want to have it both ways, practice your depraved lifestyle and go to heaven. God does’nt reward sinners with going to heaven. Wakeup!! I don’t know of any church in Atlanta, that would allow homos to worship openly in the house of God, that would be blasphemy.
By Adrien
August 17, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this
It is unbelievable how Hard$0, stay at home mom and Taboga make it seem like straight people are moral. Almost every crime committed in this country is done by a straight person, divorces which is @50% is done by straight people, Priest who are STRAIGHT molest boys and girls, but all the homosexuals are ruining the world? You three need to form a group and call it the New Ariyan Movement. I mean no one is to blame cause Stay at home’s husband got tired of looking at her butt-ugly face. Geez, A man wants something nice on his arms. Sorry you just didn’t do it for him anymore, but it is NOT homosexuals faults honey and Hard40 we all know you are an In-the closet limp little loser of a man. People want to be happy in this world and in the end there is only going to be ONE supreme judge and it sure as hell isn’t Taboga. Hard or Stay at home Ugmo mom.
By Tim
August 17, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
actually Limpy… there are quite a few churches who let us homos worship openly… some of them quite large churches… oh and fyi you may want to read the Bible as well… because the last time I checked there wasn’t a book called ‘revelations’
and Adrien… great joke… thanks :)
By Mara
August 17, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
All I can say to “Stay at Home Mom” is - HUH!! Unless your first has a homosexual affair, I fail to see the link between having homosexuals living openly in society or staying in the closet. If you think that America was once so moral as to have never had a husband cheat on a wife (or vice versa) than let me tell ya, you need to go back an re-read your history books. Jefferson and Sally Heming, Harding and Carrie Phillips, FDR and Lucy Mercer…one could probably go on and on, but many an affair was never documented as this was condoned behavior from a very patriarchal society. Even biblical David had his little fling with Bathsheba, so did the homosexuals cause him to cheat too?
As for your breast cancer, you have my condolences. It couldn’t have been an easy situation, but even had your first not strayed, how do you know that you would’ve gotten pregnant?
Personally, if you get to put gays into colonies, then I propose we put breeders there too. After all, they just suck up resources for their little ankle biters without requiring the hellions to contribute to society in any way.
You see how stupid that sounds? But one is no different than another in requiring a certain group to be sequestered from the greater socity.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this
If you “don’t worry about gays and lesbians� and if they are “inconsequential� to you then why do you care so deeply about what goes on in their personal lives?
I don’t.
Why are you so adamant about denying them the right to be with one another?
I am not.
Why are you so happy when their rights are taken away?
They’ve had no rights “taken away”.
Why are you OK with the fact that someone can spend 20 years together paying taxes, raising children, and volunteering in their communities but be denied the right to visit one another in the hospital?
No one is being denied the right to visit anyone in the hospital.
If you think it’s ok to limit their freedoms in this way then your feelings obviously go beyond being “inconsequential�.
No one is limiting their freedoms.
Do you have any more senseless drivel?
By Adrien
August 17, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this
Hard40, obviously havent bee reading my post. I never said homos will go to ehaven, but that is just some people’s belief. Just because u believe in that hell does not mean everyone doe. To YOU, we are going to hell, but that is not everyones belief. Im sure it makes people like u feel good to know that u are seo righteous, but as i said before GOD in your KJV is not interested in how u refrain from homosexuality. Are u doing anything he said to do. Were u there yesterday helping the homeless? are u visting widowers and the sick, elderly? that is the only time RELIGION is mentioned in the KJV as the definition of PURE religion undefiled? Im sure you are doing any of those thigs, yet u judge us like u have a seat right next to GOD, you and people like u are the ones who are going to be shocked at the judgement. I know where I stand and I made a choice. I am not miserable like you cause I live this lifestyle. I wish I could say the same for you.
By sct
August 17, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this
I recently had my appendix removed, if born again president George W Bush had not started the war that killed 100,000 people I would still have it.
But maybe those Iraqi’s were just clusters of cells.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this
Adreine, I refuse to stoop to your level you sound like black ghetto trash, frankly I’m not suprised. Yeah, your right about one thing there is one supreme judge and he does’nt approve of your depraved, deviant lifestyle. Your engaged in self deception. How often do you really read the BIBLE? Answer 0. If you did you would realize your not on God’s side.
By David
August 17, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
I love how some Christians talk about the problem of relativism in society when in their own bible there is relativism. In their own religion over 2000 years there has been massive changes depending on the time period. Spare us the society “hell in a hand basket” spiel.
By Adrien
August 17, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this
I must leave for the day Hard40, u see I have a beautiful girlfriend and we have sex frequently so we will be leaving for a trip tomorrow morning. So,, I will leave u with this. There are several churches that allow gays in and Im sure u are trying to get me to point one out so u can go to one also. I hope u find a boyfriend soon so u can relax. I hope he really works it for u. Geez I could put a lump of coal up your butt and pull out a diamond. have a good weekend all. God Bless.
By Ross
August 17, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this
Just a question to my fellow Christians’ postings regarding sins and Biblical teachings(by-the-way, I appreciate the nature in which Ken and AL approach the subject). I wonder if the churches you attend allow divorced, re-married individuals to be among you and worship with you? Are they allowed leadership positions in the church? Because, it is the sin of adultery to be divorced and remarry with the first spouse still alive. Also, what about heterosexuals who cohabitat but have not actually wed. Aren’t they “living in sin”.
A few specific questions for Tony. If we, as Christians are to distance ourselves from our fellow believers that are involved in sin, then wouldn’t we all just be isolated. Unless I am mistaken, Christ was the only person ever on Earth without sin. Therefore, everyone is in a constant state of unholiness.
Also, I’m curious if you could describe to me the day in your teenage years when you actually thought of becoming a homosexual. You seem to believe that change is available to anyone who really wants it, and I’ve heard that said by many people. Yet, I would like to hear the specific details of the day when you thought there was a 50% chance you were straight and a 50% chance you were gay and you decided on heterosexuality. Unless you have had such an experience, I do not think you are necessarily able to judge the ability of other people to change their own sexuality.
Your ideas interest me, as do those of the other Christians on here. So many things influence our interpretations of the Bible, and we all have one - an interpretation. It is interesting to see how someone chooses the parts that relate to them and how they present those facts.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
It’s third grade time…
HARD40, are you a homo?
By taboga
August 17, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
Stay at Home,
I certainly believe in seeing the big picture. But regardless of how you may feel about homosexuals - they were definitely not responsible for your failed marriage and breast cancer.
Nor is it the homsexuals who are responsible for the lowering of our morals - the overwhelming vast majority of we heterosexuals are responsible for that.
Let’s put blame where it lies.
By Jack
August 17, 2005 01:23 PM | Link to this
SCT, What does George Bush have to do with your appendix? We you in Iraq fighting and got hit by a bullet? Just wondering.
By JD
August 17, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this
I think Christian counseling or whatever counseling a person thinks they need can help stop unhealthy behavior. If thats the goal they want. If a straight person wants to stop fornicating, counseling may help. But that makes them no less heterosexual. If a gay person wants to stop fornicating, that still dosen’t make them any less gay.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
Adriene, I don’t believe you have a beautiful girlfriend. You and your partner probably look like men. Furthermore, lesibians can’t have sexual intercourse. You call rubbing fussies sex? You need to have your head examined.
By JD
August 17, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this
HArd40 if you were the spokesperson for Jesus when He actually walked the Earth their would be allot less Christians today. It’s hard to believe you walk by faith with all the insults and hatefull retoric that comes from you, you sound like a wanna be Fred Phelps. Christ was never abusive to anyone. He spent time with lepers and the downtrodden. Yesterday you were calling people n*er and f*g. What kind of example are you tryin to be?
By Ben
August 17, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this
How fitting that the State Department try to ease some of the pressure on G-Dub by shifting a little blame to the Clinton Administration. The cookey bastards are getting out of control.
By Lyrazel
August 17, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this
Thanks bloggers..I really smell the fellowship coming out of the congregations used by people on the blog. It really makes me WANT to recommend counseling from your churches…Why not list the churches you attend so future gays and lesbians can avoid them. One of my friends said homosexuality is natures way of managing population control, that mice in over-crowded cages tend to do same-sex mice…now, is an interesting a theory, possibly as valid as many discussed.
I have to ask, StayAtHomeMom, just where you want to put gays? There were leper colonies in Hawaii…shall we turn the islands over? Hawaii is far enough from the mainland…Why do you feel it would be more moral living in a country with internment camps? To use a catch saying you possibly have used: Is that what Jesus would do? Will that help? Just whose rights are important and whose are being trampled and when was this way-back-when-it-was moral? When we turn Hawaii over to gays all the Hawaiians will be forced from their homes…or else become gay. You could cause epidemics with this logic.
I cant help but feel sorry for the you blaming gays because long ago your husband left and you feel caught cancer because our immoral society corrupted the ex thus keeping you from breeding. I really hope you get counseling dear, and perhaps you and your doctors should look into the genetics of your family tree to see if parents and relatives also suffered such maladays. Good luck to you regardless.
By sct
August 17, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this
Jack, because the immorality of gays caused Stay at Homes breast cancer I just thought the immorality of born again Bush’s war that caused 100,000 iraqi deaths must have caused my appendectomy. Isn’t killing and war against the teachings of Jesus? Is war and killing moral?
I just noticed my throat is sore and red, it looks as if I may need my tonsils out, darn born-agains.
By Randy
August 17, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
Hard40 is either someone poising as a Christian or a confused one. Either way Jesus would not approve.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
If a house were to be painted and one person believed it should be white, the other brown - what difference does it make where their ideas come from?
Why not just judge the ideas themselves - rather than their origin?
By Tim
August 17, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel… that whole Hawaii thing may not be such a bad idea… checking out cute gay guys on the beaches of Hawaii all day… hmmmm… I think we may be able to work something out :)
By sct
August 17, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this
By the way I feel honored that stay-at-home thinks gays should have a place like the lepers, didn’t jesus visit the lepers and give his love to them? I would love to meet him and ask him if he knew his message would get so screwed up.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this
JD, who is Fred Phelps? I have no idea of who your talking about. Jesus did’nt approve of sinners. He forgave sinners and told them to go and sin no more.
By Scalia
August 17, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Tim, I couldn’t agree more. The shirtless volleyball tournaments and swimming. The luaus and hula dancing. Yeah, the Hawaii islands would be nice. So many nice tans.
There would be bars for watching the Golden Girls, Will and Grace, and Sex and the City while drinking strawberry martinis.
As for Will and Grace, one of my favorite episodes is the one where Karen was in that fetish film.
By JD
August 17, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this
Jesus never abused sinners he never called them names, never insulted them, and was full of compassion. Even the ones that treated him poorly. Fred Phelps is a Christian identity pastor from Kansas who spends time protesting at dead u.s. service members funerals. And run a web site called www.godhatesfags.com. His church members are basically all members of his family. His group gained allot of notoriety after preotesting at a funeral of a gay college student who was taken into the country brutally tied up and beaten then left unconscious strung up on a picket fence. He died a few day after being found. His name was Matthew Sheppard.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this
HARD40 - You call rubbing fussies sex? You need to have your head examined.
HA! I figured it out! Hard40 is really….Bill Oral-sex- isn’t-really-sex Clinton! Hello, Mr. President. Glad you could make it.
By Lyrazel
August 17, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
I had you in mind Tim when I selected the Islands…
By Tim
August 17, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
Scalia… I like the plan… sounds good to me… for the Southern gays can we have a place to watch ‘Designing Women’?
By Argy
August 17, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
*If a house were to be painted and one person believed it should be white, the other brown - what difference does it make where their ideas come from?
Why not just judge the ideas themselves - rather than their origin?*
Damn effin straight!
By lozen
August 17, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this
Tony, you’re 8:15 post is laughable. You are an ambassador of god? give me a break! If you said you were an ambassador for tight-assed Paul of Tarsus (whose thorn might very well have been homosexuality that he couldn’t accept in himself), that would make better sense. I guarantee you, you believe god doesn’t approve of interacial marriage either. Why do you simple minded Xtians constantly quote Paul and the old testament instead of jesus who you claim is your leader? Remember jesus saying “judge not…?” Remember “remove the plank from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in someone else’s eye?” You aren’t god Tony. Who told you you are qualified to judge others and call them sinners?
By Tim
August 17, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
thanks Lyrazel ;)… you are welcome to visit anytime
By Stay At Home Mom
August 17, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
The purpose of moving them away is to create a moral society so that hetersexuals and our children can glorify in a moralistic society — not to create a paganistic, hedonistic island of curruption, sin and filth! “They” need to be put in a place where they can get help not somewhere that would further thier lifestyle.
By Jamie S.
August 17, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
Remember….it was Adam & Eve……not Adam & Steve
By Tim
August 17, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this
so is that a ‘no’ on the hot guys and ‘Golden Girls’ reruns?
By taboga
August 17, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Why aren’t Christians more like Jesus?
Because it’s much easier to praise Jesus - than it is to do what he actually taught.
Basically the reason I don’t subscribe to religion. Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the bible is an accurate account of Jesus’ teachings - Christians are coming nowhere close.
If Jesus taught you to cook - then cook. Praising the teacher would not be a substitute for: Cooking. It would seem to me.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this
I know personally stayathomemom if you put me on an island with a bunch of lesbians, the probability of me “getting help” as you put, is few and far between. That would be great actually.
What about we put everyone with breast cancer in a cave. I find people with breast cancer to cause problems in society today. Everywhere I see pink ribbons, next thing people will want rainbow ribbons everywhere.
See how stupid that sounds?
By kimberly
August 17, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Is Toober-face making sense today? Good Lord Have Mercy, the end is nigh!
By sct
August 17, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
Jamis S, How did humans reproduce after God produced Adam and Eve? Incest?
By Tony
August 17, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
You either missed or ignored the intent Ross. The effort was to gently as a brother shame the sinner away from his sin with the goal to return him to the greater good. And no Ross, as good Christians we are not in a constant state of sin. Do we sin, yes, but we seek repentance and atonement.
Lastly, it is a FACT that people change. Not as many as I would hope, but people do change, if only a few, the effort is worth it.
God Bless you and yours Heather. The God of all grace will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. (1 Peter 5:10)
By Heather
August 17, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this
Taboga, I’m interested in what changes you think Christians should make to be more like Jesus.
By Jack
August 17, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
More people have been killed in the name of God then for any other reason.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
Okay Taboga, good point. I have to let you know when I agree with you, scary huh? lol
By taboga
August 17, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this
He always makes sense Kimberly - it’s just that people like you live in your paradigm and can’t see anything outside of that.
Now that I have expressed an opinion about what I think is a failing of Christians - you take it as religion-bashing and applaud me for it.
But it wasn’t.
By Chilao
August 17, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this
Good Lord Have Mercy, the end is nigh
actually he has said a few other good things as well.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Stay At Home Mom sounds like she’s sending her kids to their room, not homos to the homocolony. Her hysterical rant about “you’re not supposed to like it! Don’t you understand that it’s a punishment, not a reward!” Heh, heh, heh. Too funny. By the by, if she and her ilk win out, can this straight girl come and live the gays too? I’ll bring my husband if you like. (he’s not gay, but he is pretty)
By Renee
August 17, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Didn’t take it as religious bashing at all, just thought it was an interesting opinion that I happened to agree with….good grief
By Stay At Home Mom
August 17, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
Indians were given reservations. I don’t see much the difference. Allow a small part of land in each state for g/l to live. Their families, if they choose to, could come visit them at thier land. Nor am I denying these people medical care, education or jobs. They would have to build thier own establishments, as we shouldn’t have to pay for thier hospitals, schools, etc. Until they are in such a place that they have their own doctors out of thier own population, we should allow medical care into their land. The taxes they pay through whatever work they do, and work would be allowed in, could be used to pay the gov back for the land they were given.
By Archie
August 17, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
Taboga’s 1:22 post was the truth. You could say we christians haven’t done a good job. Staying on topic though christian counseling can change behavior but I don’t know about sexual preference. I do hope for gay marriage so that these people living with each other 30 and 40 years can get some benefits.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
Jamie, actually, first it was Adam and that uppity tart Lilith, and then Adam and nice submissive Eve…
By kimberly
August 17, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
Toober-face, Please do not misconstrue my note of your brief, partial, and temporary sanity as an indication that any of us think YOU even know what you’re talking about. You know nothing of my paradigm. Any perception of applause is merely another hallucination — apparently one you have daily.
By Eiri
August 17, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
Stay at Home….you’ve got Hard40 on your side…
Isn’t it time to boat that bass?
By Chilao
August 17, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
well mine was definitely not an applause, just read it as face-value: “a few good things”
By Zack
August 17, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this
IN RESPONSE TO the question of whether a straight person can become gay or not, as I’ve said, the answer is yes. Likewise, in response to the question of whether a gay person can become straight or not, the answer again is yes.
Orientation changes might not happen overnight, but they can and do happen. The belief that they’re fixed from birth is simply a myth.
As for the gay community not trying to push an agenda, THAT is a good example of a bald-faced lie. Our society, to be honest, is becoming more and more heterophobic by the day, and it’s because of the agenda gays are pushing combined with the tolerance of the “Christian” community.
The Church has failed tragically in preaching the truth. As I mentioned, what’s being preached is propaganda: self-help babble, new-age doctrine, white magic, etc.. I’m serious!! The pastor (Joel Osteen) of the nation’s largest “Christian” church, is NOT preaching the gospel at all. He preaches new-age doctrine, white magic, and his own rhetoric. In his “sermons”, he incorporates either out-of-context Scripture or just blatant lies about what the Bible says, and he NEVER, NEVER used the King James Version of the Bible, which is the only word-for-word translation. Of course, he would never ADMIT that what he’s teaching isn’t from the Bible, as he’s TRYING to lead others to damnation. It’s tragically sad and scary how so-called Christians are fueling this man’s ministry and his satanic agenda. They assume because he smiles for the camera that he’s telling the truth.
If you want to hear more about how the Church today has turned from God, please tune in to SonLife Radio. The Bible prophecied that the Church would be like this, just like it prophecied the false preachers like Osteen, and for whatever reason, many are choosing not to heed these warnings.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
I have to say it - stayathomemom - you said the Indians were given a reservation. I’m sure they were very thankful since it was their land to begin with.
I can respect an intelligent argument and/or comment whether I do or do not agree with it. But stayathomemom is something interesting. Amusing though. First computer, just types aimlessly.
By JD
August 17, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
The native americans weren’t given land, their land was taken from them, then they were herded onto what the settlers didn’t want, for their own safty and survival. The new deal for westward expassion was a raw deal for the native Americans.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Hey Stay At Home…why don’t we just put your kind on reservations instead, that way you couldn’t contaminate the rest of society with your hate and intolerance. We’d make sure that you got as good of a deal as the Native American people so you wouldn’t have to worry about that. And, sure, why not. We’ll even allow you and your people to pay us for the privilege of imprisoning you… are you really this stupid or are you trying to make us feel sorry for you?
By Argy
August 17, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this
Indians were given reservations. I don’t see much the difference.
Wait, so you’re giving homosexuals land that’s all for themsleves and they can come boogie with me! Call Rush Limbaugh, someone’s trying to give gays special rights!
And I apologize to those I called gullible; I thought SAHM’s comments were too ludicrous to be serious. Maybe she really is just kidding, but she’s doing a better job of it now.
By Chilao
August 17, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
well, as a straight male, I have yet to meet any ‘heterophobics’…dang
Zack - apparently you did not read that Boston Globe article posted here yesterday. from-birth certainly DOES happen. did not need that article to tell me that but they had a very interesting example. identical twins.
By sct
August 17, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
You would think we as a society would want some sort of christian counseling for our presidents to keep them from getting into senseless wars that kill thousands.
Oh wait, we have that, maybe “christian counseling” didn’t work for our born again president.
Does Dobson have conversion therapy for war and killing?
By TT
August 17, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Geez, Stay-at-Home Mom, straight families are doing such a great job raising moral children. The divorce rate is sky high (largely due to selfishness in marriages and adultery among heterosexuals), pornography is rampant (much of it featuring straight adults or lesbians catering to a male fantasy), and violence is widespread and touted as a solution to conflicts (as advocated by our cowboy president who stayed home when the rest of the posse went riding off to battle).
Many straight parents are rearing spoiled brats who have no respect for others and whose bedrooms are filled with computers, Playstation 2 systems, and television. Your new husband’s children probably aren’t allowed to read the classics because they conflict with your own ignorant view of the world. But I bet they get their way in everything else.
The idea that homosexuals are responsible for the demise of this country is absurd. Ignorance, hatred, laziness, greed, and finger-pointing are the elements that have made our society morally bereft.
And honestly, maybe God chose not to give you children of your own because he knew you would screw them up. Stop blaming your own shortcomings as a wife and mother on society and look inward. Or as others have quoted from Scripture, get rid of the plank in your own eye before you start pointing out the specks in other people’s eyes.
By lozen
August 17, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
sct, your 3:28 post was awesome. That’s what we need: conversion therapy for war and killing, greed and hatred.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Mara, did you ever stop to ask yourself why lesbians use dildos to imitate heterosexual sex, or engage in oral sex. They are sick and perverted. Why do some lesbians dress like men and carry themselves like men. Homos are sick and confused. Then homos have the audacity to want to marry, and have children so they can corrupt the next generation. Children should’nt have to grow up in such moral chaos and confusion. Not to mention the ridicule such children would endure from their peers. How can such an arrangement benefit a child? You people who support homosexuality and think its perfectly normal, have been brainwashed by Hollywood. They certainly make being gay seem like its glamourous and trendy. Hollywood is running an orchestrated campaign to convince America that being gay is perfectly normal and natural. I’m sick of it. You can be gay live your life anyway you choose, but don’t ram it down my throat and make me believe that their is something wrong with me for not approving of it.
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
Hetrophobic, Zack? You mean the primal urge to mate and breed is endangered?! Will all the little babies be created in fertility clinic? A brave new world indeed! EEEK! (snicker…) But it’s an interesting premise. Do you think that someday soon hetrosexuals will have to hide their interest in one another? Do you think that soon it will be illegal to marry someone of the opposite sex? Will hetros be thrown out of the churches? Will opposite sex couples have to go through legal mazes to aquire the rights of gay couples? Hmmm.
By sct
August 17, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Where ever you send us, us gays can afford to buy our own land thank you, yes even if its in Hawaii.
But how are you going to replace the property tax we produce that helps supports the local school district?
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Wow, TT. Great post. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
By lozen
August 17, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Randy, listen up. Just because O’Steen has a different interpretation and doesn’t believe exactly as you do does not make him satanic, you imbecile. Heterophobic? I know you didn’t come up with that by yourself! Where did you get “heterophobic?”
By JD
August 17, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
conversion therapy for war and killing?…woot woot….roflmao, You must of forgot Christ had a hidden agends of global domination.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
They certainly make being gay seem like its glamourous and trendy.
Tim sure sounds glamourous and trendy, and I didn’t need Hollywood to tell me that!
By kimberly
August 17, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this
Hard40 says don’t ram it down his throat. Hahahaha! Talk about a CLOSET case! Hahahaha!
By chuck
August 17, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
I’m BAAAAAAAAACK! Again we get to discuss the myth that HOMOSEXUALITY is genetic so NOBODY who is homosexual can be changed to heterosexuality. I have seen some really stupid arguments in posts past on this topic, but the comments this week are RICH.
Scalia, EVERYBODY is born a heterosexual. Of course it is possible for a heterosexual to choose to become a homosexual…every homosexual did just that at some point.
Daniel, NO CHRISTIAN that I know is “afraid of homosexuals”. We are disgusted by their immoral, unnatural behavior AND we are very concerned about the message that the church sends out to the world about homosexuality, but we are NOT afraid.
Brandon, I can’t tell you what the position of every church is toward the adulterers and those who are shacking up, but I can tell you what Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery. After he wrote something in the sand and all of her accusers left, he told her that there was no one there to accuse her. Then He said “Go and SIN NO MORE” Anyone caught up in ANY habitual sin is to be confronted by the Church according to Jesus’ own words in Matt. Chapter 5. The objective of this confrontation is to convince the sinner to repent, and then they are to be restored by the church. BUT, if they refuse to repent, Jesus commands us to withdraw fellowship from them and put them out of the church.
Lozen, I love it when non-Christians quote the Bible to prove their points, however, as usual you got it all wrong. If you spent your time studying scripture instead of criticizing it, you would learn the common error that people make when quoting the words of Jesus in this instance. As one commentator wrote: “Many people have ripped this passage out of context, however. Jesus warns us not to assume God’s prerogative to condemn the guilty; he is not warning us not to discern truth from error (see Mt.7:15-23). Further, Jesus does not oppose offering correction, but only offering correction in the wrong spirit (v. 5; compare 18:15-17; Gal 6:1-5).”
I’ll get to the rest of you tomorrow.
CAIO
By Ken
August 17, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this
Lozen… There are lots of things Jesus said that never make it to this board.
He says he comes not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
He tells people to sin no more.
Many of his parables tell of wicked people who will be cast out to where there will be weeping an gnashing of teeth.
The Luke version of the Beatitudes give a series of “Blesseds…” and “Woes…”
Why does society never talk of these…? Because contrary to the perceptions given in our society today, he talks about much more than love and taking care of the poor.
By Tim
August 17, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this
but don’t ram it down my throat
trust me… no one has any urge to ram anything down your throat limpy
But how are you going to replace the property tax we produce that helps supports the local school district?
I was just thinking the same thing
By taboga
August 17, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this
Heather,
I would think that Jesus would have wanted his followers to adhere to his teachings - rather than praising him for the teachings.
Just for the sake of discussion, imagine that Jesus was really the type of person that is depicted in the movies and stories about him.
In those depictions, Jesus is not a freak. Even those who disagreed with him and eventually condemned him to death because they thought him to be blasphemous, thought there was something special about him: He was a confident, assured and very wise person, whose demeanor and calm faith attracted people to him and his message.
What I am basically trying to say, is that I believe Jesus would have wanted his followers to be more like him and do the things that he taught them to do, rather than to preach to people and quote scripture.
If people would be more like Jesus - they wouldn’t really have to say anything about it. And if you truly have the faith he had, the inner calmness he had and the self-assuredness that he had - people will be attracted to you and will want to have the same thing you have.
But having said all that - that would be extremely hard to do and is the reason that I think most Christians have opted to praise Jesus rather than following him. And the more often they praise him and the louder they praise him, they think they are spreading the word of Christ. The word has already been spread - Jesus has already done it. It’s everyone else’s job to live it rather than talking about it.
By JD
August 17, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this
Hard40 are you a victim of Hollywood trying too brain wash you into become gay, then you must have a very fragile self concept. Do you get scared in the presence of gay men that you might garner alittle attraction towards them, you seem so militant, almost enraged about gay sex male or female. Your very versed in what they do, were you assaulted by some neofeminist? Or are you a gay plant?
By joe
August 17, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
Limpy40, I don’t think anybody gives a f—k whether you approve of them or not. All everyone wants is the same legal rights. Jeez, I’d like to put you, Stay At Home Stupid, Zack, Toe booger and everybody like you on a reservation somewhere, like Iceland maybe.
By Argy
August 17, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
lozen,
That was Zack, not Randy.
By chuck
August 17, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
But how are you going to replace the property tax we produce that helps supports the local school district?
Maybe we can use the billions of dollars we are sending to fund AIDS research.
By Ross
August 17, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
I do realize the intent and I wasn’t critizing you Tony, just asking specific questions.
I agree with you that if you repent you can be forgiven, but what specifically in the instances of divorce and remarriage. That is a constant, correct (I mean, if you’re remarried and stay remarried, even if you ask for forgiveness you’d have to be doing it all the time)? I suppose I wonder - if the church’s strong opposition to homosexuality is just based on Biblical teachings, why isn’t there more push to limit and actually outlaw divorce. It is legal and leads to the breakdown of family values.
Also, I wanted to know if you had a personal experience overcoming homosexuality. You state it as fact that people change, but unless you are the person that has changed you cannot know the true heart of the one who professes change. I don’t claim to know either.
Just honest questions - no attack intended.
By Tim
August 17, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
glamorous and trendy… I can think of no better compliment! lol
By JD
August 17, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
taboga - that was a briliant post.
By Chilao
August 17, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this
Monty Python’s The Life of Brian tells of the life of Brian quite well. As good/valid as any other depiction.
“he’s the messiah, no, over there, he’s the messiah, no, this way, he’s the messiah”
“Always look on the bright side of life, doa,doda, lalalala”
By A.R.
August 17, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
Why not see homosexuality as overpopulation control? Last time I checked they haven’t patented a way for a male to give birth…
By Mara
August 17, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
So HARD40, old buddy. Lesbians use dildos and engage in oral sex because they’re perverted? Do heteros use dildos and engage in oral sex because they, too, are perverted? Are you trying to imply that if you find the manner of sexual stimulation…er…icky..that it means someone’s “perverted”? And dress like men? You mean in jeans? And maybe with no bra under that t-shirt? With real mens wear tennis shoes? Poor confused lesbian…oh, wait, that’s stuff from my closet! And if your little anklebiters weren’t raised to hate, they wouldn’t be bullying the innocent children of gay couples, now would they? Personally I doubt anyone here wants to ram anything at all down your throat. Nor do they (or we, since I’m advocating for them) really care if you approve or not. It’s not a matter of approval, it’s a matter of equality and freedom. I don’t particularly approve of evangelicals, I don’t intend to try to legislate them out of legitimacy. That’s where you all get confused. Gays don’t care if you like them. All they want is to have the same rights under the law as any other person. The right to marry whom you love, the right to birth, adopt, or foster children, the right to live where they choose in peace. Equality, equality, equality.
By lozen
August 17, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Oops! Sorry Randy. That message was for Zack and not you.
By Brian Curtis
August 17, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
Wow, with all these “false preachers” failing to teach the “real Christianity” (apparently a special, magical subset of Christianity that only the privileged few are telepathically in touch with)… it seems more sensible to avoid Christianity altogether. After all, every third church and preacher who claims to be teaching the Truth turns out to spreading lies, right? Or is it even more than that?
StayAtHomeMom really is an entertaining parody of a clueless, terrified little housewife, isn’t she? I thought the stuff about “gays cause cancer” and “gays are pagans” was especially amusing.
But SAHM will have to work a lot harder to approach the level of clueless raving we’ve seen from Limp40 this week. How does he fit through doorways with such a swelled head? Oh well, at least he doesn’t have any actual brains weighing him down; maybe he just floats from room to room.
By Tim
August 17, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
welcome back Chuck… thanks for reminding us all how stupid you are
By sct
August 17, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this
Maybe we can use the billions of dollars we are sending to fund AIDS research.
Or maybe we could use a fraction of the money we are spending on that disgusting immoral, unnatural war, because we are very concerned about the message that the church sends out to the world about war and killing, but we should NOT be afraid to speak out against our immoral born again president.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
JD, I’m not enraged about homos or their sex lives. Your putting words in mouth i did’nt use. I just think that most Americans are against homosexuality. Americans are against same sex marriages and homos adopting children and playing house. The average American tends to forget that the gay subculture is a very small vocal minority that have alot of political and economic power. I refuse to be silenced. Principled individuals like myself have the duty to speak out against immorality and depravity. I can’t even take my dogs to Piedmont Park anymore, because all the f* hiding in the bushes having sex and exposing themselves. They walk around holding hands. Some f* even have the nerve to leer at me and make comments to their f* friends about my biceps.
By lozen
August 17, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this
Limpy40, did you ever stop to ask yourself why straight men use dildos, rubber dolls, p*** enlargers, porn movies or engage in oral sex. Because they’re perverted and sick?
By Tim
August 17, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
fs hiding in the bushes having sex and exposing themselves
dang what part of Piedmont park are you going to… I missed that part of the tour
By Heather
August 17, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
Taboga, thank you for your reply. You are right. But it is difficult. Jesus is the Son of God. All of His followers are humans, we are imperfect. We are also all in a state of BECOMING like him, meaning that we are just learning. We make mistakes.
The message he gave us though, was that we don’t have to be perfect, we are forgiven for our sins by the blood He shed for us. We only have to accept that we are forgiven and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us into being like Him.
Something I have found that came with the Holy Spirit was a strong distaste for sin. I find myself cringing when people use His name as a cuss word. When a friend goes into too much detail about not knowing who gave her all the bruises on her body at the weekend sex party, I feel this sick feeling in my stomach. When the guys at work laugh about getting drunk over the weekend, the urge to say hey, you’re killing your body is so strong. For myself, I feel the Holy Spirit is using me to help those around me, even if they don’t think they need any help.
But I am just learning. God is still teaching me, so I am going to make mistakes.
By Renee
August 17, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this
Hard40, you are lying if you say you have ever seen a fg (as you so eloquently put it) having sex behind a bush in Piedmont Park. And I doubt you walking your dog is an issue, who walks your dirty a*??
By taboga
August 17, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this
Limpy40, I don’t think anybody gives a f�k whether you approve of them or not. All everyone wants is the same legal rights. Jeez, I’d like to put you, Stay At Home Stupid, Zack, Toe booger and everybody like you on a reservation somewhere, like Iceland maybe.
Joe,
Who would be left behing do take care of you? Somebody’s gotta cleanup your spilt milk and listen to your juvenile tantrums.
By joe
August 17, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
Limpy40, which part of this “In revelations it clearly says, those who commit fornication, adultery, homosexual acts,…” covers being in bed with two blonds with big hooters? Bye, bye Limpy; you’re on your way to hell, dude.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
BTW Joe - isn’t it about that time of the day for you to post under my name?
By kimberly
August 17, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this
Lozen, it’s always been my experience that straight men are perverted and sick. Hee… {;->
By Just Being Me
August 17, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this
I’ve actually taken the time out of my day (I know, I need to get a life) to read nearly every comment in this lengthy thread.
I’m impressed by the passion in which you all state your positions.
Although sometimes my sisters and brothers make me embarassed to admit it, I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ, and I love Him with all my being. I am who I am because of Him, my values and beliefs come from Him, He is everything to me.
I am also gay. Since it relates to the earlier posts on this subject, I’ll say that I’m gay by choice. As an earlier poster said, counsellors can only help to change behaviors and actions, not sexuality or attraction. The important thing to note is that your brain tells you what to be attracted to, not the other way around.
To all the so-called Christians who spew all these hateful words, please try to show the love of Christ in all you say and do. You’re making the rest of us look really bad.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this
Get your facts straight Joe i never wrote a post about blondes with big hooters.I noticed yesterday someone used my name and typed some absurd comments. I don’t care for blondes, my taste in women is more exotic.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Heather,
I wouldn’t think he would care a whole lot about “mistakes” - as I don’t think perfection was the idea in mind.
And to take it a step further, I can’t see how living with the Bible as some instructional booklet and every time you even think you have erred, you must run out and ask for forgiveness - was the point either.
I don’t think you are being graded - but rather serving an overall purpose. Fulfill that purpose and you would be in good graces.
Besides, if you were perfect, nobody would trust you and follow you - anyway. That would be defeating the purpose, wouldn’t it?
By Tim
August 17, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
my taste in women is more exotic
oh you mean chicks with dicks
By simon
August 17, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this
Just being Me,
I appreciate your post, but I have to disagree with the choice part. I am gay, I have always been gay. I tried everything I knew to change that, but only found peace when I accepted myself for who and what I am. I could choose to be celibate, but I would still be gay. I bet that is the case with the other gay folks posting as well.
As for the Chucks, Stay at home moms, and other people who post their uneducated, uninformed OPINIONS, I have to tell you that if you are not gay you will never understand. You can’t change what is a fundamental part of your being. period.
By sct
August 17, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this
good point curtis. I was trying to decide what christian would I want to be. They all argue here on who represents the truth and a true christian. The scary thing is alot of them want christianity to be a part of our government, some think our laws are based on the 10 commandments. but who? heather? Ken? Stay at Home? Randy? Chuck? Tony? Zack?
Maybe you christians should get your stories straight before you start preaching the “truth.”
But I have learned that I can sin all I want just by saying I’m born again, and I think thats great. I get to throw stones too. Lets start a war!!! (Oh, but we can’t be gay, thats immoral.) Praise.
By HARD40
August 17, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this
Renee, you pug-nosed slave , I don’t have to lie about what has happened in the past at Piedmont Park. Alot of families stopped going to the park because of f*. The park removed the portable toilets because f* would go in them and perform sexual acts. I live near the park .I should be able to walk my dogs without being constantly annoyed by f*.
By CB
August 17, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
Ah yes…school is back in session and the loser middle school teacher is back on line using state taxes to fund his lunatic brand of fanaticism.
Does it annoy anyone else that Chuck uses a public school as a platform for his ranting…
I personally intend to find out who he is….
There was a Chuck posting yesterday about his daily trip to Athens…I think that would be a place to look.
Unless of course, Chuck…you want to tell us your name and school you teach at.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 04:49 PM | Link to this
I am a smart man - I don’t believe in God. See how smart that makes me. If you don’t think I am smart - let me tell you how silly other people are for believing in God. And those folks will fall for anything - because they are not as smart as me.
Smart people like me, believe in: Drunken tales about man evolving from apes!
By Eiri
August 17, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
I knew it. Tabooga…you are that moron Terry aren’t you? He’s the only one I’ve ever seen use that expression “drunken tale about evolving from apes”. I wasn’t sure at first, but the constant “you leftist”, the defense of religion, but “i’m not religous”, and the same pattern of illogical arguments.
Still living under a rock up in Cummings…denying the holocaust and all?
By Eiri
August 17, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this
Hard40 is full of crap…I live near the park also and it’s become more and more heterosexual…nobody has sex in the bushes are in portable toilets (which are only there when there’s an event).
You’re just a damn liar.
By taboga
August 17, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this
Eiri,
You caught me! And now that you know who I am - would you please tell me or are you just Joe trying to post another claim about me?
Don’t worry Joe - As I told you the other day - I am used to your juvenile Liberal antics. Or is it “Eiri” that is Joe?
By SteveSC
August 17, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this
Reading these exchanges is always entertaining, but please: Everybody can the personal invective.
By Lyrazel
August 18, 2005 07:26 AM | Link to this
Just a question for StayAtHomeMom before I drop it: If a homosexual medical researcher formulates a cure for cancer—would you use it?
By Bruce
August 18, 2005 07:45 AM | Link to this
Just about me,
With all the love of Christ I can muster I say to you as Jesus told the woman at the well, “Go and sin no more”….
Rather you wish to believe it or not Sexual Immorality includes Homosexuality.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 07:45 AM | Link to this
Morning Comrades,
I just found out this morning that we need an historical monument in Marietta because a man was lynched there 90 years ago.
It needs to be there so that we’ll remember something that most of us didn’t even know. But what’s really important, is that we need another reminder of just how racist we all are. Or as they say: “We should never forget.”
By Ben
August 18, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this
Taboga - We don’t want to give the prominent folk and sheriffs any ideas, best we forget about it.
By Ben
August 18, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this
But speaking of the Jews - do you really think Sharon is looking to do his part to facilitate peace? Or is just waiting for the Palestinians to do something stupid so he can march his army to the right?
By Eiri
August 18, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this
Morning Tabooga,
No I’m not Joe…I posted as John (or maybe Jon) some time ago. I got into it with you over gay marriage some time back…I think we ended with you calling me a pervert in all caps.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this
Just a reply to Heather and Taboga from yesterday. Perfection is the goal. If people knew the real value of Confession, they would be fighting to get into the Confessional. This Sacrament of Reconciliation does much more that “just” rid us of our sins; it gives us a tremendous increase in sanctifying grace. It wins for us a higher place in Heaven, with increased union with God. Each time we go to Confession, we are preserved from many dangers and misfortunes which might otherwise have befallen us. Confession is reconciliation with God—we admit our faults, we confess our pride, we want to be again in union with Him—and from all this honest and sincere reformation of life will come God’s added grace. The power of satan over us is diminished. We are helped to resist sin. Without reformation and reconciliation, and all that these words imply, the Sacrament of Confession could become a superstitious practice. A devout Confession helps us to hear the inspirations of the Holy Spirit. It gives us added “spiritual muscle” and helps us to hear and follow the advice of our Guardian Angels. It rids us of mortal sin and gives us a greater desire to be free even of venial sin. It gives us a special preserving influence against the fires of passion. Pope Paul VI described Confession as: “… a school of moral wisdom, … a training ground for spiritual energy…” Pope Pius XII, St. Vincent de Paul, St. Philip Neri, Ven. Mary of Agreda and many others went to confession every day. St. Francis of Rome went three times a day. These people knew how true it is that: “Confession is good for the soul.”
By Whiley
August 18, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this
“I just found out this morning that we need an historical monument in Marietta because a man was lynched there 90 years ago.”
Great idea, can we place monuments everywhere a woman has been raped/murdered too? Do we have enough tax dollars for that? Who gets to pay for it?
By Eiri
August 18, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this
Chuck has shown over and over on this blog that he knows nothing about biology nor genetics, so contrary to his opinion, no one is born heterosexual or homosexual.
We’re all born asexual. A gene is the amount of DNA that codes for a single protein, so no one that has any knowledge of genetic or heredity would ever say that a single gene is responsible for sexual orientation. Given that there’s a scale of same sex desire from exclusive to occasional to never, it is likely that our sexual preference is a combination of our biological make-up and our experience. Scientists are only now beginning to study the biological basis of sexual preference and there are already plenty of well researched (and accepted) studies showing biological markers that are different for men that identify as homosexual.
Unfortunately, people like James Dobson rely on antiquated notions about effeminism, which is learned, to confuse the issue of sexual orientation. News flash to some of you people…the majority of gay men are not effeminate.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this
LYRAZEL: Really good question. I anxiously await SAHM’s response.
That reminds me of David’s earlier question about whether Christian parents would support their daughters marrying a “reformed” homosexual.
SIMON: I’m glad you appreciated my post. But, the fact that I chose to commit to a same-gender partnership isn’t really up for agreement or disagreement. My choice doesn’t mean that all homosexuals choose to be gay. In fact, my “husband” did not make a choice to be gay and has had same-gender attractions for as long as she can remember.
Please know that I’m not taking away from the fact that some people (like you) have “always been gay.” In fact, every single gay friend I have believes s/he was always gay. I don’t disagree with this at all. I simply don’t fit into that category. I fit into a much smaller subgroup of gays who chose the life.
God Bless and Keep you!
By Heather
August 18, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this
I agree completely Boscoe, I am not Catholic, but I do value confession. Its funny really. When I lived a life of complete immorality, I thought I wasn’t a sinner and didn’t have anything to confess. Then when I finally saw the sin in my life for what it was, I felt the need to confess everything. There are days when I just have that nagging feeling that I haven’t been my best in certain situations, usually I’ve let anger or self get in the way of something. I will sit down and read the Sermon on the Mount. By the time I’ve reached the end, I know what it was I did wrong, I have confessed it to the Lord, and that nagging guilt is gone. Its amazing how refreshing it is to get it off my chest.
By Alex
August 18, 2005 09:37 AM | Link to this
Scientists are only now beginning to study the biological basis of sexual preference and there are already plenty of well researched (and accepted) studies showing biological markers that are different for men that identify as homosexual. I challenge you to name those studies! There are NO 100% accepted studies of biological indicators. Name a study then so I can quote scientists who show flaws in any study that “PROVES” biological indicators. Please do it I’m begging for you to do so.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this
Heather, if you read my post, you must GO TO confession. Saying I’m sorry to God yourself is a start but is incomplete. Think of a child that must tell their parents of something they did wrong. If that child tells his parents he’s sorry in privacy the parents won’t be aware of the child’s search for forgivness. It takes courage and faith in the parents mercy to seek it in person. You must take the same attitude with God.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this
BRUCE: *”With all the love of Christ I can muster I say to you as Jesus told the woman at the well, “Go and sin no moreâ€?….
Rather you wish to believe it or not Sexual Immorality includes Homosexuality.”*
Sweetheart, if you have to “muster” up the love of Christ to tell me anything, you don’t know what the love of Christ is - and you surely don’t demonstrate having it.
I absolutely refuse to get into a debate with you on what the Bible REALLY says about homosexuality. I won’t argue with you about the real Hebrew and Greek translations of words like “abomination” and “perversion” and “lie with mankind.” I won’t refer you to any books written by admitted proponents of same-sex relationships, who explain such terms.
What I will do, however, is encourage you to buy a Hebrew-English and Greek-English dictionary and perhaps a non-partisan, non-denominational OBJECTIVELY written book that explains what biblical terms actually mean.
After you’ve done that, let me know and we’ll talk. Betcha you’ll be saying something different.
I love you - and for me it’s easy to love.
JBM
By Bruce
August 18, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
Boscoe,
I usually agree with you on most issues but your last post left me a little confused. Since God is the only one that can foregive sin why can’t you take your confession of sin directly to Him? Who else must it be taken too before you take it to God?
By Renee
August 18, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this
Are there any accepted studies 100% showing no biological indicators?
By TT
August 18, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
Religion is a personal matter between an individual and their God. The Christians on this blog have no business judging others or telling them what is an appropriate confession. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” As a life-long Christian, I have learned that prayer and personal time with God are the foundations of faith. Men and organized, sectarian religion have politicized and divided the followers of Christ for too long. The only groups pushing for our nation to sanction religion are the ones who need to be ostentatious about their faith.
The Bible is clear on “false prophets,” and I’m pretty certain Christ said, “No one comes to the Father but through Me.” He never said, “Or you can get to heaven via your preacher or support for your President’s faith-based initiatives.” He also said, “render unto God what is the Lord’s and render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” Laws and religion are separate, and that is in accordance with the God’s will. Stop using the Lord’s name to justify prejudice or injustice. God knows who His followers are, He doesn’t need a monument or sanctioned school prayer to be reminded.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this
Boscoe, I understand your point. But when I confess my sins to God, it is complete, believe me. If I have sinned against another, an apology is order to that person. When I joined my church, I spoke with the pastor about my past transgressions. But I do not believe I must go to the pastor for every sin I commit. My relationship with God does not require a third party.
By Stay At Home Mom
August 18, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this
Lyrazel
Yes I would and so would my family. Also, medicine should be placed in the order of importance to society of the people in the society. Children first, married parents with children, single parents second, etc.
By Bruce
August 18, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this
I do not have to translate the word of God from another language. The Holy Spirit does that for me. I said nothing about “abomination� and “perversion� and “lie with mankind.� My words were Sexual Immorality includes Homosexuality.
What is sad is you know what is right and wrong because you have the Love of Christ. You just choose not to except that fact and you are not willing to change. Then you sit back and condem other brothers and sisters in Christ for standing firm on God’s word. Please tell me what is worse a Christain that sins and ask for forgiveness or a Christain that sins and tries to justify their sin? IMO the second scares all believers more.
For me this is not a debatable issue for believers. God’s word is very clear on sin, no matter what language you read it in because the Holy Spirit translates it for us. Sin is sin and we as believers are directed to help each other during our time of weakness. It was with love I wrote to you and I beg your forgivness for any offense.
Always in Christ, Bruce
By sct
August 18, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this
Since some of you are into study results can someone point me to the study results that prove a boy can be cured of his “pre-gayness” by showering with his father where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only bigger.
This is a technique used by James Dobson and comes from his Focus on the Family website. Can anyone point me to a study that shows this works?
By Heather
August 18, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this
Stay at home mom, I have avoided replying to you but I was just wondering why you would put married parents over single parents in the medicine line. If a single parent dies, that child is orphaned, right? I would think single parents would come first, but thats just me. :)
I was actually thinking about some of your posts on the way to work this morning. You have certainly gotten a good laugh out of everyone here, haven’t you?
By Eiri
August 18, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this
Sorry about the wordiness..but here are a few examples.
Let me clarify what “accepted” means. It means a group of scientists have gone through peer review and decided a study is worthy of further investigation, and thus publish the study. These do not imply causation of sexual orientation, only that there are observed differences between self-identified homosexuals and heterosexuals. The significance of these observations is yet to be determined.
The fact that some may disagree with the findings does not invalidate the research so 100% acceptance is not necessary.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/695142.stm
Third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH1). This small group of cells lies in a region of the hypothalamus known from animal studies to be involved in the generation of male-typical sex behavior. It is generally larger in men than women (Allen et al., 1989; Byne et al., 2001; LeVay, 1991). In a 1991 autopsy study, I reported that INAH3 was smaller, on average, in gay men than in straight men (LeVay, 1991). A more recent study replicated this finding, although the magnitude of the difference was less (Byne et al., 2001). This latter study also reported that there was a difference in cell density�a higher density (more cells per cubic millimeter) in the gay men. The researchers commented that the total number of cells in INAH3 may be the same in gay and straight men, but are packed more closely in the gay men, perhaps because they did not form so many synapses during development.
A British group (Rahman et al., 2003b) recently reported differences in the startle response (eyeblink following a loud sound) of lesbians compared with heterosexual women. It was previously known that men and women differ in the extent to which the startle response is inhibited when the loud sound is preceded by a weaker sound: this “prepulse inhibition� (PPI) is typically less evident in women than men. The researchers reported that the PPI was greater (i.e., masculinized) in the lesbian subjects, a finding that they interpreted in terms of the prenatal hormone theory.
Neurotransmitter function. A group at the University of Chicago (Kinnunen et al., 2004) compared the brain’s metabolic response to oral administration of a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetine, in gay and straight men. Using fluorodoxyglucose positron emission tomography, they found differences in response in several brain regions. In the hypothalamus, the heterosexual men showed a significantly greater reduction of glucose metabolism in response to the drug, though only on the right side.
Researchers at the Monell Chemical Senses Center tested the preferences of heterosexual men, homosexual men, heterosexual women, and homosexual women for armpit secretions pooled from six-member panels representing these same four subject groups (Martins et al., 2005). They reported differences in preferences related to both the sex and the sexual orientation of both the donor panels and the judging panels. For example, gay men preferred odors from gay men to those from other groups, whereas straight men like the odor from gay men less than from other groups. The authors suggest that biological factors lead to recognizably different odors in persons of the same sex but different sexual orientation, and that homosexual men and women assess the attractiveness of these odors differently.
By sct
August 18, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this
Not much more than 20 years ago women wore hats to church as directed in the bible. Can someone direct me to a study that concludes that this is no longer required and the word of god can now be ignored.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
Can someone post a link to the page where Dodson is saying to shower with sons? I have looked at the website all week and don’t see it anywhere. I was hoping to check it out for myself. Thanks.
By sct
August 18, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
Bruce, Jesus may have said “and sin no more” but exactly when did he start handing out stones?
That might be a good addition to some of the christian book stores. Buckets of stones for $19.99, each bucket sprinkled with holy water for only $5.00 extra.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
BOSCOE, you’re preaching doctrine, not Bible. The Bible says that we should confess our faults one to another, yes. Faults. Among other benefits, confessing our faults helps us to stay humble, and encourages our sisters and brothers by showing them that they are not the only ones who struggle with this or that.
However, confessing our sins is quite different. The sole purpose of confessing our sins is to acknowledge wrong, and request forgiveness. There is no reasonable undoctrinal purpose for a third-party to be involved in that process. The Bible makes it clear that the only one who is authorized to forgive our sins is God.
Confessing sins to a person other than God is nothing more than a meaningless common practice of indoctrinated Christians.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this
Alex: As you well know, there are no studies or theorems that are 100% accepted in science. Science works by degrees of doubt and certainty, not absolutes (like religion claims to).
Heck, there are still people with degrees who seriously dispute evolution, gravity, or atoms! But if you want to read just one recent study of differing body and brain chemistry between gays and straights, here’s one from earlier this year:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4532029.stm Their report: http://www.monell.org/files/news/martins2005pr.pdf
By Lyrazel
August 18, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Thank you StayatHomeMom. I have a better perspective on your vision. I find it strange that you want gays locked up and gassed, but if a homosexual invents a cure that can help you and your family—it would be used without compulsion. Now, if you remember in the history of medicine, Charles Drew, the man that gave us plasma blood that has saved millions of lives, was black and died because no white hospital allowed him entrance to their facilities after his car crash. See, when prejudice and bigotry infect our lives we all loose, regardless of imorality or faith or skintone. May your recovery come with blessings and the patience to forgive.
By sct
August 18, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this
Here you go Heather, the page is long and the quote is about 3/4’s down.
http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm
the boy’s father has to do his part. He needs to mirror and affirm his son’s maleness. He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl. He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball. He can teach him to pound a square wooden peg into a square hole in a pegboard. He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only bigger.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this
Bruce, Heather, TT, the reason, and again remember I am a Catholic, you must go to confession via a priest is to show Humility before God. Humility is huge in religion. Remember in Exodus, Moses asks to see God but God only allows Moses to see the back of his legs? The reason is because God is so great, so high above us, that to show the proper reverance towards Him one must confess via an intermediary. Who are we to speak directly with this great God himself. The Mass, before Vatican II changes but still to some degree, takes this same approach. The Mass, which takes the petitions of the people’s request for forgiveness of sins to God via Christ. It is not us that asks for forgiveness but the Christ for us because God surely would not refuse His only Son. the Mass is the holiest act of religion. It is a reperation for sins. You cannot do anything to glorify God more, nor profit your soul more, than by devoutly assisting at it, and assisting as often as possible. The Blessed Virgin Mary, is held in high regard in the Catholic Church also for this reason. Jesus would not refuse His Holy Mother. By the way TT, the phrase “Judge not lest we be judged” is used out of context. Christ did not enjoin us to refrain from ever judging. What he went on to say in the next four verses is that we should judge ourselves before we judge others—not that we shouldn’t judge at all. Withholding charitable correction when called to do so is plainly against Jesus’ teaching, and against the love of neighbor. St. Thomas writes, “The greatest kindness one can render to any man consists in leading him from error to truth.â€? Fraternal correction is a loving act, because it seeks to help our brothers and sisters attain their greatest good and happiness, which is God in Heaven.
By NDM
August 18, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
Gary Harrison says:
“When I see two males or two females of ANY species reproduce naturally, I may change my mind.�
Well, get ready to change your mind then:
Cnemidophorus uniparens. Aren’t facts and reality troublesome?
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this
Boscoe, the bible says we are to confess our sins to GOD…not to a human being (priest) who does NOT have the ability to forgive anyone’s sins. (No matter how many times you say “Mary” it doesn’t forgive your sins!) Turn to God…turn to Jesus directly. We do not need a mediator between us and Jesus-namely Mary. A one on one relationship with Jesus is what you need. Jesus died on the cross ONCE. So, there is no need for daily sacrifices of the “masses”. There is no such place as purgatory-where you pay for your sins and are made perfect so you can enter heaven. Jesus said, “It is finished!” He paid for your sins…there is no need for you to. No need to burn in torment in an imaginary place called purgatory. The Catholic church in all their beliefs and practices does away with the finished work of Jesus on the cross. I pray your eyes will be opened to the true Christianity and leave the Catholic church and it’s false doctrines. Study the inquisition and the history of the popes. Study the connection to the persecution of the Serbs in Catholic Croatia…look up Jasenovic. It’s the concentration camps in WWII set up for children by the Catholic govt leaders! The Catholic Ustasha even turned the Nazi’s stomachs because they were so vile. No time to explain here, please check the internet on this issue. The inquisition lasted roughly from 1200 to 1800 where protestants were totured and burned at the stake for defying the pope’s doctrines. This church has not changed…only waiting for the revived roman empire (aka-the EU) to give her power once again. This is when the AC and false prophet appear. Won’t be long folks. Check the internet for the territory of the roman empire and check again for the EU territory. The Catholic church fought tooth and nail to keep us from having our own bibles (only the priest can rear the bible-in Latin). They not only burned bible translators at the stake but gathered and burned the bibles! What true church of God would EVER do this??? We have bibles in our homes today because brave men and women stood up to the catholic church and the popes even if it cost their lives. Please do some honest research on these issues. If you can dispute them please do…but only after you check the information I gave you.
If you are not catholic or Christian I know you’re scratching your heads over some of my statements. Confused? Do some research on your own.
By Lyrazel
August 18, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this
PS stay at home: your list of preferential treatment at medical facilities does not include old women like me who never had kids, nor my husband who never had kids—and btw—you, not being a biological mom—will get lumped with me, I guess. Welcome to the bottom of the barrel… Lets raid the bedpans to make a band and create a place to grow some compassion for the sick and elderly with that list you made…soon you too will be old and in the way…
By Opinionated
August 18, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this
are the Protestants and Catholics still going at it? geeeez
By Ben
August 18, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Sorry Boscoe, but your version is kind of “Tooth Fairyish.” It like kids having to be good cause Santa Claus is watching and knows who’s been naughty or nice. And the only way to talk to him is to sit on the old Fat Man’s lap and tell him what you want, and let him know if you’ve been a good little boy or girl.
Reminds me of an Eddie Murphy movie … Can I have the knife … Pllleeeeeeeaaaase!
By Renee
August 18, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this
Wow NDM for the cnemidophorus uniparens!
By Argy
August 18, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this
Alex,
If those news articles aren’t scientific enough for you, you can shell out a few bucks for the whole article:
Linkage between sexual orientation and chromosome Xq28 in males but not in females. Nat Genet. 1995 Nov;11(3):248-56.
We have extended our analysis of the role of the long arm of the X chromosome (Xq28) in sexual orientation by DNA linkage analyses of two newly ascertained series of families that contained either two gay brothers or two lesbian sisters as well as heterosexual siblings. Linkage between the Xq28 markers and sexual orientation was detected for the gay male families but not for the lesbian families or for families that failed to meet defined inclusion criteria for the study of sex-linked sexual orientation. Our results corroborate the previously reported linkage between Xq28 and male homosexuality in selected kinships and suggest that this region contains a locus that influences individual variations in sexual orientation in men but not in women.
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this
Boscoe, you said: Who are we to speak directly with this great God himself.
As a Christian I am called “a child of God” and He is called my “Father”. As His child I can speak directly to Him in Jesus’ name and know that He loves me and hears ever word I say.
We are told by Jesus himself to pray to “Our Father which art in Heaven”. We are also told to pray in the privacy of our room while we are alone with God one on one so as to show our faith in the fact that we know He hears us. We are told not to pray like those that make a big show of it in public using repetitious words. (As in the rosary where you repeat the same thing a certain number of times-usually to Mary.) If you are a Christian you can go to God directly and Jesus directly. Mary was a human being-blessed among women-but with no supernatural abilites, certainly not the ability to hear or answer prayer. She was blessed but she blesses no one. Just like Joseph she was human. The Catholic church changes the role of Jesus and gives that role to Mary.
Boscoe, have you ever prayed to Jesus?
By TT
August 18, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this
Thank you, Boscoe. You have proven my point that the various sects of Christianity interpret God’s Word differently. You say, Who are we to speak directly with this great God himself. I am grateful then, that I am not a Catholic. As a Presbyterian, I believe that I can form a private, personal, and humble relationship with God. I don’t need intervention between me and God, especially from human priests who are prone to mistakes. (Just think how many young boys had doubts about their faith after suffering through years of abuse from Catholic priests). God listens to my prayers and I don’t need to confess my sins to others to be absolved of them or to reassure my fellow followers that I am human and prone to mistakes. They know that I make mistakes because God said that we all do.
And by the way, no matter how lovingly you attempt to tell others on this blog to turn from their sin, you are only succeeding in alienating a whole group of people that could believe in Christ. They turn their backs on organized religion because of people like you, who “correct” them rather than love them. Please don’t preach humility when you are placing yourself on God’s throne by passing judgment over homosexuals. God also said that all sins are equal, and I feel that your pride may be blinding you to that truth.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this
BRUCE, if the Holy Spirit translated the Word of God from Greek and Hebrew to English, you wouldn’t need to read a Bible in translated English, now would you? A human (in some cases, teams of humans) translated the Bible from Greek and Hebrew to English. NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. Humans did this. Although I firmly believe that the Word of God is flawless in its original text, and in all its implications. I will not agree that man’s translations are all flawless. Actually, man’s translations can’t ALL be flawless, because they differ from version to version.
This is why it is so important for us to study the Word of God for ourselves, not based on what Pastor, Priest, Bishop or Mom & Dad told us. We have to know Him and His Word for ourselves. That means that we have to know what He meant when he gave certain passages. This is why we must be able to translate the Bible from its original text FOR OURSELVES. If you did that, you would know that the Bible doesn’t even use the word “homosexuality” in its original text.
I have not, and will not, condemn other people for standing on God’s Word. I only encourage those who do stand on His word to speak His words with lovingkindness, not bitterness, judgment or impatience. Jesus said, “With lovingkindness I’ve drawn thee…”
Bruce, like you, I once believed that homosexuality was sinful. But, I began to study the Word for myself, and learned that I was a victim of indoctrination, like most Christians are.
You say that you think it’s sad that I know right from wrong, but still live a sinful life. I think it’s sad that you only know right from wrong based on what your Sunday School teacher showed you in the Bible, not on what the original text of the Bible really says.
Not to start a whole other debate, but since you called me “unwilling to change,” I must respond. If I decide to stop having intimate relations with my partner, have I changed? Or have I changed my behavior? See, while man looks on the outward appearance, God is looking at our hearts. That’s all He’s concerned about is our hearts. My heart is pure. I’m not perfect, but I work toward perfection every day. I love my partner. I am honest with her. I am faithful to her. I treat her well. I respect her. I honor her. We worship together. We are committed to God, and to each other.
So, lets say we stop sleeping together. Has that changed our hearts? Of course not. The only thing that will do is make us crabby, anxious, and moody… which will probably lead to sin!! :-)
Bruce, you can’t “change” a homosexual any more than you can change a heterosexual. You can only modify their behaviors, and that has little to do with the heart.
JBM
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this
The Catholic church fought tooth and nail to keep us from having our own bibles (only the priest can rear the bible-in Latin).They not only burned bible translators at the stake but gathered and burned the bibles! What true church of God would EVER do this??? Angie, I will only address this story to spare the others from having to scroll through a lengthy response, but addressing this story should be enough to convince the others that you think I’m jealous because the voices only talk to you. Do you believe everything you read, especially on the internet? The Church never prevented anybody from having their own bible. It is true; the Church would chain the bible to desks. Do you know why they did? Apparently not! Angie before the advent of the printing press somewhere around 1500 A.D. (Strangely about that time the protestant movement gained momentum) bibles were hand copied on parchment,(that’s before paper is mass produced, hard to come by) Angie, not only the bible, but books were not readily available. It took months to reproduce a single book. The Church priority was to make copies for the Churches of the world not the public. One was considered wealthy in those days to have books. The bibles were chained up SO PEOPLE COULD NOT STEAL THEM! This very day we have evidence why the Church would burn unauthorized copies of the bible. It was to prevent different sects from false interpretation of the bible. Look how many different religions there are today. They can’t all be right and disagree on what the proper way to worship God is. â€?The Catholic church in all their beliefs and practices does away with the finished work of Jesus on the crossâ€? If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
TT,If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560. Is John Knox your personal saviour?
If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.
If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
By Opinionated
August 18, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this
I have it on good authority from fundamentalists that I know that THE BEAST will be certain religious factions of the good ole USA, not the EU.
but brings up an interesting observation: The Beast always seems to be those OTHER people’s religion/culture.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this
…and if you’re a non-denominational Christian, when was your religion founded?
By Opinionated
August 18, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this
guy missed the Seventh-Day Adventists. They have their own Prophet, like the Mormoms. Now isn’t that special.
religion-ism religion-ism!
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
Mary was a human being-blessed among women-but with no supernatural abilites, certainly not the ability to hear or answer prayer. She was blessed but she blesses no one. Just like Joseph she was human. The Catholic church changes the role of Jesus and gives that role to Mary. Angie you just denied Jesus. What you’re telling me is that Jesus, Our Saviour, the Saviour of the world came from the womb of an ordinary woman just like you and me. To do that is to deny Christ’s greatness. Jesus, the Word of God made flesh was NOT born of an ordinary woman. He was born pure, from a woman who also was born pure. Anything less degrades Him.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
I guess you can just pretend for it all to be what you want it to be.
Figure out what is comfortable for you and go from there.
God made me what I am - and I am what I am and he is what he is - I love him and he loves me?
Nothing to it - I can do it in my sleep.
And as long as I proclaim those things and I am comfortable with it, I can go about my life uninterrupted - doing as I please?
And you know what the great part about all of it is? I can always find some saying in the Bible that will justify how I want to be! And if that saying doesn’t say exactly what I want it to say - I can always claim: That’s my interpretation of it!
As far as the rest of the Bible goes - I will ignore it! And of course substantiate that by saying: Jesus said we are not perfect!
This is great stuff, isn’t it?
By Me
August 18, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
Gary, * When I see two males or two females of ANY species reproduce naturally, I may change my mind.* Check out the fungus that can reproduce homosexually here.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this
Clarification for Boscoe: Actually, the Catholic church wasn’t founded by Jesus either. Rather, his buddy Paul did it—and promptly got a lot of things wrong that Jesus never said or intended. Other denominations have been trying to fix his mistakes ever since.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
Not much more than 20 years ago women wore hats to church as directed in the bible. Can someone direct me to a study that concludes that this is no longer required and the word of god can now be ignored.
SCT: I’m not sure if a “study” was done to conclude it was no longer necessary for women to wear hats or other head-coverings to church. Having been raised in a church where females were required to cover their heads, I think I can respond to this inquiry, despite the fact that I’m not an expert qualified to do any studies.
For centuries, men isolated (and accordingly misinterpreted and misinformed) the scripture that says that a woman’s head should always be covered. Another scripture of significance says that a woman’s hair is given to her for a covering. So, literally, what this means is that women shouldn’t have bald heads in the sanctuary (strange as that sounds).
When you put the two relevant scriptures together you get: (1) a woman’s head should always be covered in the sanctuary, and (2) a woman’s hair is that covering.
JBM
By Opinionated
August 18, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this
LMAO at “Mormoms”, sorry. “MormoNs”. thought I had corrected that, too.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this
Gary: Why would reproduction matter? It’s neither wonderful nor particularly desirable—in fact, much of our effort in human civilization has been bent toward trying to find ways to avoid it!
And as I said before: If anyone wants to complain about non-reproductive sexual behavior, you’d better be ready to swear you’ve never had or performed hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation, or any other type of non-impregnating activity.
For that matter, since we now have the technology to determine when a woman is fertile, you’d better promise to NEVER have sex except on those specific days.
Anybody want to make that promise? Because then—and ONLY then—do you have the right to denounce any non-procreative sexual activity. Otherwise, you’re just another self-righteous hypocrite who hates gays and is trying to justify it with science or religion.
By Alex
August 18, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
Argy, I’ll give you credit that your arguement is much better than Brian Curtis suggesting man that prefer other mens sweaty T-shirt by more than 2-1 is proof that being gay is genetic. But Argy, if male sexual orientation is influenced by a gene or genes at Xq28, then gay brothers should share more than 50% of their alleles at this region, whereas their heterosexual brothers should share less than 50% of their alleles. By contrast, if there is no such gene, then both types of brothers should display 50% allele sharing. But, identical twins(i.e. same genes) are not both gay in every case. This study really only goes into determine that if being gay, in males alone, is indeed genetic it comes from the mothers side becuase more gay uncle exsist on the mothers side rather than the family side. I would venture the focus group needs to be significantly larger to draw this conclusion. Thanks anyway.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this
Mary was a human being-blessed among women-but with no supernatural abilites, certainly not the ability to hear or answer prayer. She was blessed but she blesses no one. Just like Joseph she was human. The Catholic church changes the role of Jesus and gives that role to Mary. Angie you just denied Jesus. What you’re telling me is that Jesus, Our Saviour, the Saviour of the world came from the womb of an ordinary woman just like you and me. To do that is to deny Christ’s greatness. Jesus, the Word of God made flesh was NOT born of an ordinary woman. He was born pure, from a woman who also was born pure. Anything less degrades Him.
Ah, so this is what all those wars between the Orange and the Green were all about. Very important stuff, to be sure. Praise the lord, pass the ammunition!
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this
Clarification for Boscoe: Actually, the Catholic church wasn’t founded by Jesus either. Rather, his buddy Paul did itâ€â€?and promptly got a lot of things wrong that Jesus never said or intended. Other denominations have been trying to fix his mistakes ever since. Brian, the leaders of these other denominations are trying to correct Paul’s mistakes 1500 years after Christ died when Paul, Christ’s disiple, knew Jesus PERSONALLY, learned form Him PERSONALLY, was in His presence PERSONALLY, but it’s paul who got it wrong?
Did you even think about this before you wrote it?
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this
Yes, Boscoe, I did. Paul was an imperfect human with his own follies and prejudices. He wasn’t Jesus.
By Tim
August 18, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this
He was born pure, from a woman who also was born pure
for Mary to be born pure doesn’t that mean her mama had to be pure also? I think I am gonna start praying to Mary’s mama
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this
Awww ARGY, just when Alex was giving you credit for providing a LOGICAL argument. First, the quote is only half mine. Second, study further on that problem in the emerald isle, it’s not about protestants vs. Catholics.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this
Paul was an imperfect human with his own follies and prejudices. He wasn’t Jesus. Brain, these other men are not Jesus either. Paul learned directly from Christ.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
Argy, if male sexual orientation is influenced by a gene or genes at Xq28, then gay brothers should share more than 50% of their alleles at this region, whereas their heterosexual brothers should share less than 50% of their alleles. By contrast, if there is no such gene, then both types of brothers should display 50% allele sharing.
That sounds right. Glad to see you have at least a basic understanding of Mendelian Genetics.
But, identical twins(i.e. same genes) are not both gay in every case.
Of course, but there are certainly other factors, genetic and environmental. Twin studies have shown that if one’s identical twin is gay, they are more likely to be gay, even if raised in separate environments.
This study really only goes into determine that if being gay, in males alone, is indeed genetic it comes from the mothers side becuase more gay uncle exsist on the mothers side rather than the family side.
I’m missing something here. What are you talking about? Could you get the whole article? I can’t without paying for it.
To tell you the truth, later studies have suggested that Xq28 may not actually have role. Such is science. The first genome-wide search for a “gay gene” was just published this March. New data should be coming out soon.
By sct
August 18, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this
Pure insanity,lol. Anyone that wants to allow religion/christianity into our government needs to read this blog first.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this
Boscoe: So we’re in agreement that nobody, none of the founders of ANY Christian church, were perfect, right?
Sure, Paul had an advantage in knowing Jesus personally. But the other denominations have an advantage, too; the advantage of other writings from other contemporaries, their own philosophers and thinkers, and the advances in civilization made since then. Frankly, I’d be more impressed with a church developed in modern times by a large consortium of wise men than the primitive ponderings of a single, demonstrably flawed guy.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this
Boscoe,
I know the argument was only half yours. That’s why I made a new paragraph for your part. And I wasn’t talking about Ireland, I was talking about the violence that occurred during the Reformation, which was certainly about Protestants vs. Catholics.
When I quote you in the future, I’ll add little hiccups to the text so everyone can tell who words they are.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
i was talking with a good friend of mine and she agrees with me that gay marriage should be legal. what if there was a place where they would only 2 men or 2 women could get married and they refused to marry a man/woman? how would all the straight people feel about it then? if its ok to shut out gay people, then why cant gay people shut out straight people. that wouldnt happen, why? because gay people dont treat straight people the way some straight people treat gay people.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
*This study really only goes into determine that if being gay, in males alone, is indeed genetic it comes from the mothers side becuase more gay uncle exsist on the mothers side rather than the family side.
I’m missing something here. What are you talking about? Could you get the whole article? I can’t without paying for it.*
Nevermind, you must have read the original study.
By vince
August 18, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this
If you were not born gay, then you don’t know anything about choice or not. Period. The question itself suggests being gay is some sort of situation that requires counseling. Absurd question. If changing sexual orientation is so critical, then why stop there? Lets explore if counseling can change skin color, national origin, gender, hair color, and music prefernces.
By James
August 18, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this
HARD40 thanks for your diligent research on this issue. I’m shocked to find out “all the fs hiding in the bushes having sex and exposing themselves. They walk around holding hands. Some fs even have the nerve to leer at me and make comments to their fs friends about my biceps.â€?
You really need to get some help man – because you are a serious closet case and a real Jeffery Dahmer in the making.
Dude – straight guys don’t obsess about gay sex; straight guys don’t wander into situations where other men are “exposing themselves”; straight guys don’t spend the better part of the day following and commenting on a blog about gay issues; finally straight guys don’t revel in what gays do in the bushes. FYI – if you’re drooling over the man flesh at the park in the middle of the night then there’s a good chance that the guy is going to respond if he’s gay too. You can’t drink in the forbidden delights around you and then get offended when guys ‘leer’ at you and make comments about your biceps. No matter how discreet you try to be most people can feel your eyes burning through their clothes.
Your only hope is to contact James Dobson right away. I hear he has ways to help you release the demons inside. Apparently you’ll have to jump in the shower with DaddyBear so he can show you that his p*** is bigger than yours. ( http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0021043.cfm )
Personally I think that’s kind of weird but it’s best to leave these things up to the homosexual prevention experts.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this
Hmm, guess I shouldn’t have said Orange and Green. Sorry, that’s what I use to refer to P’s ‘n’ C’s generally, not just the cute little redheaded ones.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
i was talking with a good friend of mine and she agrees with me that gay marriage should be legal. what if there was a place where they would only 2 men or 2 women could get married and they refused to marry a man/woman? how would all the straight people feel about it then? if its ok to shut out gay people, then why cant gay people shut out straight people. that wouldnt happen, why? because gay people dont treat straight people the way some straight people treat gay people.
The normal people would just wait until they all died off, takeover the place - and do what they please.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this
Correct me if I am wrong, but Jesus was crucified before Saul was converted. Paul is really one of the first born again Christians. He experienced the Spirit of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul did not experience his conversion at the teachings of Jesus’s disciples. It was three years after his conversion that he went to visit Peter, who if I am not mistaken, is considered the first Pope. Paul had contact with Jesus’s brother James in that time. Paul was teaching and spreading the Good News without any assistance from the Apostles. Peter founded the Catholic Church, I believe.
Saul was one of the Jews who persecuted Christians. He supervised many imprisonments and executions. This is what makes his conversion so important. When you read Paul, you are reading the words of a man who realized he was a sinner and repented. He was convicted by God on the road to Damascus, he experienced God firsthand. There was no one else needed, just God and man.
By Jack
August 18, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Hard40 has large biceps from “choking the chicken” too much.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this
I was especially amused by Limp40’s outrage that gay couples would “walk around holding hands.” The nerve of some people! Why, they’re doing exactly what straight people do all the time—and they’re doing it where Limp40 can see them!
Poor baby. He must need protection from the awful, nasty sight of handholding. It’s only okay when straight couples do it, you see; gays belong in a nice, dark closet.
By vince
August 18, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this
Taboga, You’ll have to wait a long time for them to all die off, because (I know this is gonna be a BIG news flash for you) gay people are born from heterosexuals making babies. Gay people have been around forever, and as long as hetero’s keep making babies, they’ll be more and more gays.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Brian, all of Christ’s disiples hand a hand in establishing the Catholic Church. All of the disiples knew Jesus personally. The advantage is distinctly theirs, they learned from the source of knowledge. I don’t care how many writers the latter denominations had those writers only interpreted information that was written down to pass to the ages from the original disiples who learned it. Jesus told them how to do it the way He wanted it done, the latter denominations changed it to fit their opinions. Even Vatican II changed things from the original plan that are not in accord.
By Zack
August 18, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Don’t we have a moderator here? Apparently not, going on what taboga said earlier.
Lozen—I missed your post earlier. I don’t care to read it, actually. You and Whiley have replaced Norman as being insane and basically impossible to communicate with. If you have a legitimate post for me, yes, I’ll read it.
Brian—No, Christianity doesn’t need to be avoided. Of course not! Don’t you get it? These preachers like Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Robert Schuler, etc. are doing the devil’s work! They’re calling themselves Christians and are trying to lead people away from Christ. They’re outright lying about what the Bible says, and this SHOULD be leading you to think. What’s going on here? Satan is a master deceiver, and he’s trying his best to deceive people into straying from Christ. I think you’re a very sharp guy, Brian. I really do. However, I think you unfortunately also have a side to you that is wanting to combat the truth, and I hope this changes soon.
I repeat: It’s SCARY what the Church has become nowadays. Preaching the truth is out, and rock music, dancing, and other worldly atmospheres are in. False doctrine is running rampant. This is NOT an unimportant issue here; whether or not we serve God and where we spend eternity are more than important.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this
sct,
Just took a look at that Dobson article. Did you catch where he said that tuberculosis is a sexually transmitted disease? Hilarious! A laugh, through and through!
By Bruce
August 18, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this
But aren’t we (Christains) instructed to rebuke our brothers and sisters when we see them doing wrong? Didn’t Christ Himself do the same? Dosen’t He also tell us to go and do as He did? Why is it so hard for Christians to except the fact that we are supposed to hold each other accountable? I believe that is why God created the Church in the first place. So like minded believers could come together, worship Him, learn about Him and be support for each other.
Boscoe, I believe more along the line with Angie, although I do not agree with everything you believe I respect your beliefs.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this
Zack, I have to agree with you. That “feel good” ministry is very seductive and draws people in with quick fixes that require no sacrifice or real work. “Just be positive and positive things will happen for you”, they say. Everyone who disagrees with the harder aspects of Christianity can feel good and keep on sinning.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this
Geez, ZACK. What’d Joel Osteen do to you? Why would you accuse Joel and others of doing the devil’s work and what specifically have they done to try to “lead people away from Christ”???? Furthermore, what lies have they told about the Bible? I sure hope you have documented evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, you are treading on dangerous ground, accusing (perhaps falsely) a person of being anti-Christ.
I do agree with you on one thing, though: I, too, find it scary to see what’s become of God’s church. I’m even more scared about the people who claim to represent God and speak on His behalf.
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this
Yes Heather you are correct, I am thinking of Peter the first Pope. P.S. James was not Jesus’ brother in the sense that they had the same mother. The Virgin Mary did not have anymore children except Jesus.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
Yes He did Boscoe.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this
BRUCE - How can one Christian hold another accountable, or even rebuke him, if s/he hasn’t studied the Word thoroughly to know what God expects of us?
HEATHER - Jesus himself said that he drew people to him with LOVINGKINDNESS, something the body of Christ seems to be reluctant to do. Did you ever stop to think about the teaching that goes on INSIDE the walls of Lakewood Church, and others like it? Perhaps they teach positive, uplifting, and encouraging messages just to draw the people in? Once they are in those four walls, you better believe that they get sound Biblical teaching straight from the Bible.
Furthermore, it is simply untrue that Joel and others like him only teach positive messages. If you watch the entire broadcast, you will find that he gives correction and sound advice as well. He teaches from mistakes that he’s made and admonishes worshippers not to follow in those footsteps. He talks about sin and wrongdoing. He talks about repentance. It is ridiculous (and unfair) to accuse him, or others like him, of teaching people to “feel good and keep on sinning.”
If you, or any other Christian, wants only to hear Bible-thumping messages that condemn you to hell and offer no hope whatsoever, you have deeply rooted problems on the inside that I can’t even begin to address. Unfortunately, millions of Christians throughout the world only subscribe to teaching that condemns them where they are. Those people move through life subconsciously believing that they could never be “good enough” or live “right enough”. They constantly repeat such scriptures as, “Our righteousness is as filthy rags in his sight…” But, what about the life-affirming scriptures? What about the Jesus who gave hope to the hopeless? Was that the watered-down gospel too?
The Authority on preaching is Jesus. Look at his sermons. What preaching style and methods did HE use to draw the people?
By Jack
August 18, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this
This is off the subject boys and girls, but a roadside bomb was detonated in Iraq and it contained Sarin. The mainsteam media will not make a big deal out of this because it will make “W” look good and they probabvly don’t consider nerve gas a WMD.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this
Just Being Me, let me tell you that we “Bible-thumpers” certainly DO NOT feel HOPELESS when we leave church. Maybe YOU have felt that way when leaving a bible-thumping church because the Holy Spirit convicted you of your sin and YOU felt hopeless because you were unwilling to accept it.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this
Taboga- I was trying to make a point, which apparently you missed. everyone already knows that you are an idiot, no need to prove it further. i was simply saying why is it ok to only let certain people get married? why not ban straight people get married. if all men are created equal and all that… then how come a gay man doesnt have to same rights as a straight man?
By Whiley
August 18, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this
SEE ! Some of you prove without a doubt most Christians are crazy !
hehe
By Renee
August 18, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this
Okay, on this shower therapy issue. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. People have this stereotype in their head that any man that is gay is some flaming queen. There are many gay men that possess no feminine qualities at all. They are football players, wrestlers, in the army etc…
By sct
August 18, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this
Argy, the article is hilarious. Its funny how the media likes to reference James Dobson and his Focus on the Family website as an expert in the religious gay-conversion field. Whats absent though is his methods.
Can you picture Shaunti writing in her conversion column, “Parents, if you think your son is gay have the father shower with the boy so the gayboy can see what a manly p*** looks like. Note to parents: If the father is not indowed enough it is ok to recruit an uncle for the task.”
Or maybe a faith and values article on how to convert your pre-gay son.
1.He can play rough-and-tumble games with his son, in ways that are decidedly different from the games he would play with a little girl.
2.He can help his son learn to throw and catch a ball.
3.He can take him to a NASCAR race.
4.He can even take his son with him into the shower, where the boy cannot help but notice that Dad has a p*s, just like his, only HUGE!
By James
August 18, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this
Zack — what are you doing down here on earth with all of these sinners??! You are obviously one of God’s chosen so I would have thought you would have been taken by the Rapture by now. I’m going to save all your postings and put together a “Zack Bible”. It is such a relief that I don’t have to read the other Bible anymore (it’s too long). I can just do what you tell me to do and then everything will be fine.
By the way — I think we’re going to have to stone some of our brothers in Christ. It seems that they have violated the holy scriptures. Lev. 19:27 clearly forbids males from getting their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples. We can try to convince them to change their sinful ways but you know how the wicked try to twist the (other) bible to conform to their own corruption.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this
Dateline: 2030.
Last year’s discovery of a new medical procedure, which allows doctors to detect a homosexual gene in an unborn child, has ignited a rapidly growing controversy between supporters of the Pro-Choice and Pro-Life movements.
Anti-Abortion proponents on the Left are accusing the Pro-Choice advocates on the Right of wanting to, in their words: “Destroy God’s creation” - with their support for the abortion of the unwanted homosexual child.
Those on the Left say that abortion should only be used in cases of incest and rape and should never be used a form of prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals.
Those on the Right strongly disagree, stating that all decisions regarding the reproductive system of a woman - should be left to the woman.
By mit
August 18, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this
thanks taboga for making us all a little bit dumber.
By TT
August 18, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this
The true duty of every Christian is to spread the Gospel—to show mankind that God loves them and that Jesus died on the cross so that they are free. In addition, our job is to communicate God’s desire to have a personal relationship with anyone who is willing to accept Him, and that there is hope in our future.
Our job is not to condemn or judge our fellow brothers. Jesus said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” None of us are without sin.
And Boscoe: I do not believe that John Knox is my savior; I rest my faith on Jesus. Yours is based on the self-righteous doctrine of the Catholic Church, which in its arrogance, seeks to be an intermediary between God and His followers. In the past, the Catholic Church was a powerhouse, the equivalent of a super state. Now it is a misguided relic, reeling in its own sin and scandal.
You can trust the Catholic Church’s interpretation of God’s Word, or you can do what I did, and read it for yourself. If years of sexual abuse and millions of dollars in reparations are not enough to convince you that the Catholic Church has turned its back on the Gospel, then far be it for me to try to change you. Jesus helped the lame to walk and the blind to see; I only hope you will give him the chance to help you see the light.
By sct
August 18, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this
Toboga, your 2030 projection has one flaw.
The newly created Department of Christian Authority will declare all research invalid under the 2015 Intelligent Design Legislation Act that outlaws the theory of homosexuals.
Homosexuals won’t even exist in 2030.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 02:44 PM | Link to this
Mit,
You should be alright - “You can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip”!
By DL
August 18, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
As a father, I have to say the Dobson letter is SCARY! I cannot see how showering with my son is going to help make him straight. And if somehow there is a gene associated with homosexuality, I certainly wouldn’t want to program my child to be one way or another. Sounds like exactly the world Hitler was trying to create! As for the religious arguments, we need to quit trying to speak for God and let his spirit guide. It is an individual decision, and none of us have the right to judge. Love as God does, not according to human decision and judgement…
By Heather
August 18, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this
I have a question. What would you guys like next weeks topic to be?
By taboga
August 18, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this
Heather,
It doesn’t matter, the Left will bash Christians and Bush, while Whiley will find a way to talk about her sex life.
The topic is irrelevant.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
Heather,
I suspect next week’s topic will be President Bush’s suggestion that ID should be taught along with evolution. That’d be fine with me. No matter what it is, though, it will degenerate into a conversation on religion.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this
So what brings you back here every week, Tobaga?
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this
Heather: Perhaps something important, like healthcare or education.
Zack: I appreciate your kind words, and I do agree that I have a part of me that fights against the truth—it’s the part that leans toward superstition and religion instead of reason and evidence. We all have this irrational side to our brains that afflicts us to varying degrees. I hope I keep mine under control well enough to make generally rational choices.
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this
Heather, I’m going to leave you alone sister. Your comment was a bit accusatory, and I’d rather not go there. I’m working on being more Christ-like, and responding to you would set me back about a year.
For clarity, though: I did NOT call you a Bible-thumper, nor did I say that YOU leave church feeling hopeless. And, for the record, the only time I feel hopeless is when I get to the gas pumps! I’ve NEVER left church feeling hopeless, because I am confident in my relationship with Christ, confident in my calling, and in my spiritual gifts. However, I know too many would-be Christians that do leave churches in despair - worse off than they were when they got there. Surely that doesn’t happen at Joel Osteen’s church.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
So what brings you back here every week, Tobaga?
I like making fun of people like Brian, who thinks we ought to drone on about “Health Care and Education” so that we can all pretend to be compassionate and concerned.
By Whiley
August 18, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this
Hey wait a moment here ! I’ve hardly discussed my sex life. I have brought it up & admitted I actually have sex, that’s about it. OH I’m going to hell. hehe Why is the topic about religion & church anyway? It’s an old argument. This is a “women’s” blog, most women couldn’t care LESS ABOUT GAYS. (only why are so many so good looking, while the straight guys look so frumpy?)
Why don’t we combine everything this board loves to fight about. How about, “Can Joel Osteens church convert a black poor gay man living in Piedmont Park & stop him from whistling at Limp40 on the way to his Feminist Abortion Rights rally in Marietta next to the new monument??
By Boscoe
August 18, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this
Heather, how did Christ have brothers and sisters if the Virgin Mary remained a Virgin? TT, if the men that did those horrible things to the children had followed the teachings of Christ then they most certainly would not have done them. It absolutely gives the Catholic Church a huge black eye. I hate that it happened. I actually feel sorry for those that did it, because I certainly would not want to stand in front of God with those crimes on my rap sheet. Those men do not represent all of the Catholic Church. There are those that truly care about it, although they are getting harder to find. There are also those that wish it destroyed because of the good it does. Remember in the bible it tells you the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this
Brian, you say part of you leans to religion and superstition??? To me not believing in a creator of the universe would make me superstitious, think it through, things don’t appear out of thin air without help, nope that’s not right there was no thin air. The 2nd law of thermodynamics proves the universe had a beginning and will have a end. Therefore logically, a creator must exist.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this
Just Being Me, my tone was wrong, I apologize. I am actually going to see Joel Osteen when he comes to town. My mom and sister love him. But I do have some issues with his message. It is not so much what he says as what he doesn’t say. But I will hold off commenting about him further until after his event here in Sept.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Vin Disel is gay. so is Ewan McGregor. i dont see any men having a problem watching Vin Disel’s movies….
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
So believing in a creator is reasonable and has evidence. Absolute evidence. There being a creator of this universe is completely and absolutely “The Truth”, there is no doubt, unless someone is not being honest with oneself.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this
A scientist got drunk one night off his favorite stuff. He opened a book, leafed through the pages - and saw an ape.
And he said: “I wonder if people would believe that man evolved from…”
And some did. But only the smart ones who are far too clever to be tricked into a superstitious belief of: Creation.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, I think it would be best if we did not discuss the sex life of Jesus’s mother. But the Bible does mention Jesus’s brothers many times in a context that would seem different than spiritual brothers. I am not going to argue this point with you however as I find it disrespectful. Lets talk about something else, okay?
By Sistah
August 18, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
Good point on the ‘woman’s’ blog comment, I always wondered why there were guys here as well.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this
Whiley, you got a smile out of me on that one.
By Renee
August 18, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this
Raylene — where do you get you information? Vin Diesel??
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this
On Jesus’ brothers, I always just took it as Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. Not that she remained one the rest of her life. That would make sense??
By raylene
August 18, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this
he admitted it in a tv interview
By taboga
August 18, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this
Heather,
Next week’s topic: Can sexual counseling change a Christian’s preference?
By Heather
August 18, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this
I think evolution/creationism would be a great discussion next week. The ape comments would be great reading. :)
By Stay At Home Mom
August 18, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
Lyrazel I guess after reading your question for the second time I found it odd. Gays & lesbians are the CAUSE for cancer, the cause for alzheimer’s, parkinson’s, heart disease. They caused the onset of 9/11, the tsunami, recent hurricanes — these things are wrath from the universe for gays and lesbinas being alive and living amongst us and spreading evil and sin!
By Ilona
August 18, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
What interview did he admit this on?
By Renee
August 18, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
What interview was this?
By Whiley
August 18, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this
“Can sexual counseling change a Christian’s preference?”
ROFL ! :)
By Heather
August 18, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this
Taboga, I decided I liked you when you talked about running naked at the mall to express your “rights”. Sometimes though, you can be a bit of an _.
With Christian love, Heather.
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this
Evolution, not believing in a creator, the big bang, what some people will come up with to try to do whatever they want to do, to have no rules and regulations. In essence play God. None of the above really make sense if you really think about it.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 03:41 PM | Link to this
man did evolve from ape. why do you think that some people still look like cavemen? and why are apes so much like humans? there is like a .1% difference between us. some apes are smarter than some humans….
By Just Being Me
August 18, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this
Heather - No problem. I hope you enjoy Joel Osteen. I would love to see him this year - missed him last year. I just hate the traffic and congestion that comes with large crowds. I’m still working on the patience thing, and as of today, I don’t have enough of it to go to Philips Arena for anything!
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this
Yea the Apes are going to build a spaceship to go to the moon also. Why can’t other animals reason, why is it only man??? Why didn’t other animals start talking and thinking??? Why don’t other animals feel remorse??? There are a million more. I’m so confused.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this
i dont remember i was fliping channels and had stopped just as he said it. i’m sure you can find it on the internet somewhere
By taboga
August 18, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this
Speaking of Evolution. Have scientists come up with a theory as to why the Leftists stagnated at the Neanderthal stage of the process?
By Randy
August 18, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this
Raylene is going to tell us next that the earth is flat and you will fall off.
By blablabla
August 18, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Heather,
It doesn’t matter, the Left will bash Christians and Bush, while Whiley will find a way to talk about her sex life.
The topic is irrelevant.
So what brings you back here every week, Tobaga?
I like making fun of people like Brian, who thinks we ought to drone on about “Health Care and Education� so that we can all pretend to be compassionate and concerned.
pricelessly funny.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this
Randy-
animals do think, and imagine that, they have feelings. also can i point out that monkeys have been to space. i am studying animal behavior right now, if you have anymore questions as to wheather or not animals think. or have feelings.
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this
Boscoe stated,“Angie you just denied Jesus.”
First of all, I have not nor will I EVER deny my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Secondly, Jesus was pure and sinless. Mary was a virgin before Jesus was born but she clearly had other children after Him. This fact does NOT in any way degrade Jesus Christ-to say the woman that gave birth to Him was a human being like you and me.
Boscoe said,“What you’re telling me is that Jesus, Our Saviour, the Saviour of the world came from the womb of an ordinary woman just like you and me. To do that is to deny Christ’s greatness.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying…she was an ordinary woman who was blessed among women. And nothing can ever take away Christ’s greatness! And that certainly doesn’t degrade Him as you put it.
Also, Boscoe, as to the bible, do you know that your catholic ten commandments are different from mine??? My second commandment prohibits the worship of any graven image and the worship of idols. The catholic commandments omits number 2 and takes number 9 and breaks it into two commandments instead of one. The catholic church is filled with idols and graven images that are actually prayed to. Why is that? Just curious.
The catholic doctrines have been added to year after year. What year was it that they “decided” that Mary ascended to heaven (just like Jesus)? The 1600’s or 1800’s I think. What year was it that catholics decided that Mary was sinless or that you could purchase an “indulgence” to get a dead relative out of purgatory? (Pay the right price and your grandma gets out of torment and goes to heaven!!! Step right up folks…and don’t forget about your uncle Al while you’re at it. Half off sale today…pay for one relative to get out of purgatory and get one free!?) These false doctrines are insulting to God and Jesus. What man on earth has the power to say that for the price of $250 that the priest or pope will grant a dead relative an immediate place in heaven??? Heaven for the right dollar amount??? This is the reason Martin Luther began rebuking the pope. This is what started the reformation and protestant movement. Once people could read the bible in their own language (German, English,etc) they could clearly see that the teachings of Rome were not in the bible. They learned about forgiveness and grace and the love of Jesus. They quickly saw that Rome taught false doctrines that go against scripture.
And what of the millions of people the catholic church labeled as “heretics” and brutally tortured and burned at the stake for being a “bible-believer” and not believing the false roman doctrines? Did you know the inquisition only changed it’s name but has not been revised or ended. Ratzinger was the head of it since the early 80’s. Seeking out “heresy” around the world. Once they finally elect a president of the EU and he aligns with the pope (probably the next pope) that you will see Revelation unfolding before your very eyes. At that time to pope will once again be in power to remove “heretics”.
It’s ok if you don’t believe me because probably within our very lifetimes we will see the truth unfold.
Boscoe, please don’t think I am attacking you. I know you’ve probably gone to Catholic school and been taught these doctrines since you were small. And I don’t expect you to change your views overnight-if at all. I just hope you will think about the catholic doctrines versus what Jesus finished on the cross. If you believe you have to go to a place of torment called purgatory to pay for your sins then tell me WHY did Jesus have to die on that cross??? There is nothing on earth you can do to earn a place in heaven. The bible says that all our good works are but filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord. We don’t go to heaven because of anything that WE accomplish-going to mass every week, going to confession every month, praying hundreds of repetitious prayers of the rosary, doing penance, saying thousands of Hail Mary’s, jumping through the pope’s hoops (so to speak) doesn’t matter to Jesus and won’t assure a person of a place in heaven. You must only believe in Jesus, confess that you are a sinner and ask Him into your heart. Then Jesus sends a “helper”-the holy spirit to dwell within the believer and to guide you and help you to discern the truth.
You say that Jesus would deny His mother nothing so if you ask her to go to Jesus then He will grant her request. I’m here to tell you that YOU can and need to got to Jesus directly and have a personal relationship with Him. You need NO mediator to step in for you when you have daily fellowship with Him.
And you should find it alarming that the catholic church and many of it’s teachings come from the pagan religions that were in Rome at the time of Constantine. Pagan temples renamed, pagan gods renamed as Christians saints, pagan rituals such as the round cakes baked to the goddesses now called the wafer of the mass, pagan belief in purgatory, etc. The catholic church even had the brainstorm of “discovering” that Christ’s birthday was December 25th-the day the pagans worshipped as the birth of the SUN! You can’t mix Christianity with paganism…yet that’s what the catholic church has done. If this offends you and angers you-it SHOULD! You should be offended that the church you’ve believed all your life if full of false teachings and has committed such horrible crimes. I am also offended that they have tried to pass themselves off as the one true church and that anyone who doesn’t belong to it are damned to hell. I am offended that they burned true followers of Christ at the stake for simply believing the bible and not the pope. And I am afraid it won’t be long before they do the same thing again.
By Questions
August 18, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this
Who says animals lower than humans are not already creating their gods? My dog lying in the sun could very well be worshipping his Sun God. Do we know that he is not?
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this
Heather,
You got to learn to lighten-up a bit. The blog is, well, just a blog. We are not in a seminary here.
New Christians are lot like smokers who recently quit: That’s all they want to talk about. And to anyone who will listen!
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this
looks like it boils down to more of MAN SAID GOD SAID anyway. I can see the religious leader of years ago, coming out of his tent after too much wine the night before “Villagers, gather around, God came to me in a vision last night and told me Blah Blah Blah”
and those who did not go YES SIR were executed.
By Brian Curtis
August 18, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this
(I know this is pointless, but I have to try.)
Randy, your conclusion about a creator seems logical to you… but only because it comports with your pre-existing, unproven assumptions. (What logicians call “axioms.”) Example:
The logic flows perfectly—but only if the initial assumption is correct. (In fact, point 1 has already been disproved, so it’s not that great an example.)
The 2nd law of thermodynamics says nothing about origins; it describes how processes occur in a closed system, nothing more. Any additional “meaning or interpretation” you apply to it isn’t science; it’s philosophy and opinion.
Likewise, your evolution question includes a presupposition as well: that intelligence is somehow an active “goal” or the highest achievement of all life on earth. There’s no science behind that perspective—just a preference. It’s admittedly a common preference that most of us share, but it’s not demanded by logic or evidence.
As you repeatedly (and smugly) recommend: “Think it through.”
By Randy
August 18, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this
Raylene, I didn’t say animals didn’t have feelings, they certainly do. However, they can not reason, they survive by instinct, which may be a lower level of reacting to things(like Pavlov’s Dog). Maybe you need to ask one how to do your taxes.
By Raylene
August 18, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
I was just asking Raylene because I had never heard that one. I checked on the internet just out of curiosity and from what I gather it’s just a bunch of rumors, doesn’t matter much though.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this
Randy-
No I am not going to say the earth is flat. you dunce. But considering that i am studying to be a veterinary assistant, and currently animal behavior, i can tell you that animals are more like humans than you think. i’m sorry if your peanut brain cant handle that. and animals dont speak in a language you cant understand, but they can communicate.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
I was just teasing you Tobago.
By Randy
August 18, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
All scientists, people with common sense, etc. Know no other animal(besides man)has reasoning power. Is someone here debating that???
By Heather
August 18, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this
Angie, I am impressed.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
was just teasing you Tobago
Then maybe it is me who should “lighten-up”. I didn’t get the tease.
Take care.
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this
To Zack and Randy:
I couldn’t agree with you more. Have a good evening and stay strong for Christ. The Protestants need to review their history and be filled with the true spirit that Luther and Calvin had.
By mit
August 18, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
randy, prove no other animals have the ability to reason.
go ahead prove it.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this
no randy… actually, animals dont just have instinct, they learn how to do things just as a baby human would. a tiger kitten would have to learn how to catch its prey, same as a baby would have to learn how to feed itself. you can say whatever you want, but i do know what i am talking about. and how do you know that animals dont remorse? just because a dog cant say its sorry for pooping on the kitchen floor, that doesnt mean that it doesnt understand why you yelled at it, or that it doesnt feel like it has done something wrong.
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
I think we established on this blog that all people with common sense would be CATHOLIC.
we really do not KNOW what animals THINK, we just like to THINK that we do.
I’ll admonish my dog tonight, tell him he is all wrong, us humans know better. SNORT
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this
Raylene,
Of course animals can “communicate”. Everyone has known this since childhood - you just now figuring this out in Veterinary school?
The fact that animals can communicate - would not suggest to anyone that they are similar to humans.
Of course, if our school system continues to dumb-down kids like trained seals - you might have a point!
By Randy
August 18, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
OK Raylene, we will get them to make some decisions concerning your finances then. Maybe they can use a weegee board.
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this
Thank you Heather. Your posts were excellent.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
*randy, prove no other animals have the ability to reason.
go ahead prove it.*
If there is a God - would he please save us! I thought that the second destruction of earth was supposed to be by fire?
I think he changed his mind and thought insanity would be more entertaining!
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this
think Heather was lusting after Taboga’s naked butt as he ran throught the mall? hence the tease? LOL
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this
no i knew this long before i started school you as*. i have been around animals my whole life. but seeing as i could care less what you think, i will just ignore your ignorance. it is not my problem if you people cant understand basic animal psychology. lets all pick on raylene because she actually knows what she is talking about and we have no dang clue.
By Chilao
August 18, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this
think Randy is equating LEVEL of reasoning with doing taxes. Many humans also can not do taxes. Does that make them dogs? (in the reasoning department)
By Randy
August 18, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Mit, It’s not for me to prove that animals can reason, it’s for you to prove they can(I can’t believe we are having this conversation)
Raylene, If they are teaching you that animals can reason, you need to get your money back!!!! With the things you have said here, you will need it.
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
I do not think Randy has been around many animals.because they certainly can ‘reason’. Certainly not on a human level, but.
Better let my dog continue to worship his Sun God, if he is. Might be right. Well, for him at least.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this
it is not my problem if you people cant understand basic animal psychology.
Not only do I not understand it - I have never heard of it!
Woman, what on earth are you doing out here? Someone who understands animal psychology has a much higher calling than the AJC blog.!
By MrDeer
August 18, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this
If I could reason I would ask you humans, why you kill my fellow deer for sport? We are gods creatures but you wouldn’t believe the number of times I’ve seen a freinds head blown up by one of you christian-beings or whatever you call yourselves. It wouldn’t be so bad if you used us for food but mostly you don’t. I thank god I can’t figure it out.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this
thank you chilao. lets pick on randy for a little bit.
By Heather
August 18, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
Okay, who is MrDeer? I just have to know.
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this
yeah, the concept of animal’s reasoning and animal psychology pretty bizarre stuff all right.
Pretty much like the rest of the day.
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this
well taboga, i happen to like discussing things that are important to me. sorry if that offends you.
By Questions
August 18, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this
MRDeer - you have not heard? Man was put on this earth to have dominion over all the plants and animals. And if man wants to blow your friends’ heads off for sport, well, that is what God intended. Come’on, man, get with the program.
By taboga
August 18, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
Questions,
Let me explain it to you.
Animals are like Leftists: They cannot reason but are trainable.
Jump up and down on one leg every time you feed your dog. After a few times, he will know that when you jump…he will be fed. That is training not reasoning.
Bring up the war in Iraq, the Leftists will say: “Bush lied”.
That’s training - not reasoning.
See the similarity?
By sct
August 18, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this
Heather, MrDeer will answer but only if you promise not to blow his head off ;)
By raylene
August 18, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this
heather had to go. she will be back tomorrow. but i am sure she doesnt hunt. in fact she never mentioned it…. i promise if mrdeer will tell me.
By Argy
August 18, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this
a weegee board?
snickers
By ANGIE
August 18, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this
I need to correct a spelling from an earlier post. Jasenovac is the correct spelling.
By rik
August 18, 2005 05:30 PM | Link to this
I read about 2/3 of the way through this got tired of slogging through it, so this is in response to “consenting adults argument can easily be applied to incest, so people who are for homosexual rights are for incest.”
If you were to apply the “consenting adults” argument to incest, you would have a pretty good position to attack one of the better defenses of homosexuality (assuming consenting adults were in fact involved). That is, as long as you forgot about the fact that in straight incestuous relationships, there is the potential for a child. This child is not a consenting adult, so therefore incest is not between consenting adults. I suppose you could have gay incestuous relationships, but its really a whole lot easier to make all incest illegal. But then you can easily fall back on arguments like birth defects, immoral, etc. to keep all incest illegal.
Homosexuals, by definition, cannot have children, and therefore are literally only consenting adults.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 07:54 AM | Link to this
Raylene was right, I don’t hunt. Deer meat does taste good tho. :) I promise not to hurt Mr.Deer if he confesses.
By Bruce
August 19, 2005 07:55 AM | Link to this
I have read alot of silly stuff on this blog since the first of the year but Raylene you win the booby prise. Next you will try to convince us that eggplant come from chickens!!! I have been around animals all my life too, hogs, chickens, horses, dogs, cats, etc. and not once have I ever seen any of them show remorse, or intelligent thought. Other than their basic instincts they only do what they have been trained to do and nothing more.
MyDeer,
You keep poking your head out like this and you maybe joining your friends on someones wall. Hunting season is just around the corner:-)
By taboga
August 19, 2005 08:00 AM | Link to this
Rik,
You’re just another who has missed the point. The comparison was not made so as to discuss the effects of homosexuality or incest.
The comparison was made to illustrate the phoniness of the whole same-sex marriage argument. The argument for same-sex marriage is as follows:
Those are the basic arguments for same-sex marriage.
Now, if you think that same-sex marriage should be allowed - fine! If you would like to see it happen - fine! If same sex-marriage is ok with you, you have no problem with it, or whatever - fine! If you believe in same-sex marriage, you are of course perfectly entitled to that belief - no problem whatsoever.
But, when you use the reasons I stated above to demand that we must allow same-sex marriage based on that criteria, how can you not support incestuous marriage based upon the same reasoning?
Again, I am not talking about the effects of any marriage, whether it be heterosexual, homosexual, incestuous or any other. Nor, am I talking about which effects any of those may have on children. We could go on and on with that - with no end in sight.
I just want to know why consenting adults who pay taxes are not allowed to choose their partner and are treated as second class citizens and are not entitled to equal treatment under the law - because they are an incestuous couple.
If Gays are to be entitled to marriage - so should they be!
By raylene
August 19, 2005 08:03 AM | Link to this
well thank you bruce. but i was more refering to cats and dogs who can be trained to do certain things. which they do in fact have to think about.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 08:08 AM | Link to this
animals have feelings and thoughts they are just not as complex as a humans.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this
— China is training with the Russians!
— Sharon concedes Gaza and the Palestinians still aren’t happy!
— Iran and Korea continue to develop nuclear weapons
— And we are toying in Iraq with no sign of stability, waiting on a useless document to be signed.
WWIII is getting closer everyday. I hope you guys are saving your change to help pay for the gas prices in 6 months. But those will probably be irrelevant considering most of the 18 - 32 year olds will end up in the military to accomodate for the current misuse of military assets.
By the way, I’ll say it again for the people that wonder why there are men on the “woman’s” blog. Woman to Woman is the name of the blog because the writers are women, and they debate the issues they choose. Shaunti to Diane doesn’t have the same ring.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this
Be nice to Raylene. She’s Diane to my Shaunti. She and I work side by side all day long carrying on these discussions in person with each other.
I have heard some stories about animals that would defy explanation. Just this weekend I heard about a three legged dog that swam back and saved his master from freezing water. The animal grabbed a rope tied to the boat and pulled it to shore. We really don’t know what goes on in the minds of animals, we can only guess.
By Lyrazel
August 19, 2005 08:13 AM | Link to this
This is for StayatHomeMom: A study examining the role childhood diet plays in breast cancer has found an association between eating French fries regularly during the preschool years and developing breast cancer as an adult.
Each weekly serving of French fries girls consumed between ages 3 and 5 increased their risk of developing breast cancer as adults by 27 percent, according to researchers at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and the Harvard School of Public Health. The finding is the first of its kind and must be confirmed by other studies, said lead author Karin Michels, an associate professor at Harvard Medical School and clinical epidemiologist at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston.
Michels speculated the French fries may be implicated in breast cancer because they are prepared in fats that are high in harmful trans-fatty acids and saturated fat.
The dietary survey examined the childhood eating habits of participants in the Harvard Nurses’ Health Study. To obtain information about what adult women had eaten as preschoolers, the researchers asked the mothers of participants in the nurses’ study to fill out questionnaires asking how often their daughters had eaten 30 different food items.
The researchers analyzed data gathered in 1993 from 582 participants with breast cancer and 1,569 women without breast cancer. The participants were born between 1921 and 1965, so their mothers were being asked to recall information from decades earlier.
Taken from the Tribune… Enjoy.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this
Hey, Cindy Sheehan left the protest site out near Bush’s land. Her mother suffered a stroke. She’s not sure she will be able to return.
By David
August 19, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this
I wonder, do fundies hate gays or Catholics more?
By taboga
August 19, 2005 08:39 AM | Link to this
Poor lady.
It’s easy to see how watching your daughter out there behaving like a raving lunatic and becoming the laughing-stock of the country - would cause you to have a stroke.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 08:41 AM | Link to this
I wonder, do fundies hate gays or Catholics more?
Gay Catholics.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this
I don’t necessarily approve of how she’s going about making her point; but I definitely understand and agree with her concern.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 08:46 AM | Link to this
David, do liberals hate Republicans or Christians more?
By Heather
August 19, 2005 08:49 AM | Link to this
LOL, Taboga!!
By ANGIE
August 19, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this
Hey David, what’s a “fundie”?
I’m a Christian and I don’t gays or catholics. I may disagree with homosexuality but I certainly don’t hate the people that are homosexual. What people do in their own homes is 100% up to them and none of my business. I do however disagree when it comes to changing laws because of sexual preference. And I don’t hate catholics. I certainly disagree with their beliefs and would hope that the people find Jesus and leave the false church. But I don’t hate anyone. It’s ok to disagree with someone-that does not mean that you hate that person!
By Archie
August 19, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this
We have already stated that incest and homosexuality are different. Incest is illegal as well whereas homosexuality is not. Incest is illegal because defective genes tend to be intensified when parents have the same genes. Some argue that disease is passed due to homosexuality but you could argue the same thing about heterosexuality. As a straight man I have no understanding of the attraction to another male but if a gay couple is as committed as a straight couple they should be able to pass their benefits on to their partner. If we christians truly believe that everything God created is good then there should not be any racism or sexism. There should never have been laws on the books that allow a man to beat his wife. My point is we don’t follow the Bible anyway so it’s better that we base our laws on right and wrong and on doing things in an orderly manner. We should also acknowledge science. No one asks about incest when the topic is the divorce rate. The reason is because they are entirely different things no matter the reasons and it isn’t logical to ask about the other.
By David
August 19, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this
David, do liberals hate Republicans or Christians more?
I’m guessing you think I’m a liberal. I’ve been a Republican for more than 20 years (ever since I first started voting). I’m very saddened by the current crop of Republican politicians seemingly hell-bent (heh) on propping up religious issues. But I’m also happy seeing that plenty of moderate Republicans are sick of what is going on right now. There will definitely be a backlash come next voting go-round.
Probably time for me to be a Libertarian anyway.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this
I don’t necessarily approve of how she’s going about making her point; but I definitely understand and agree with her concern.
She has made no point. And she has no concern. She is simply a lunatic who thinks that because she lost her son, that the President of the United States is obligated to come out to a ditch and address a bunch of societal misfits - who couldn’t give 3 cents about her, her son, or any other sons in Iraq!
The best thing that could come of that whole embarrassing mess — is Hollywood filming the sequel to: One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest!
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this
We have already stated that incest and homosexuality are different.
And why on earth would anyone need to “state” that!
By Renee
August 19, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this
Libertarians are the best!
By Lurker
August 19, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this
ATTENTION ALL YOU PINKO LEFTIES:(per our dear Fireman)
The Playboy interview this month has the interview with some guy named Friedman, formerly and maybe still, a New York Times Middle East ‘expert’. He is 100 percent behind Bush actions to bring democracy to the Middle East. Makes some very good points. Worth the read.
NOW BACK TO REGULARLY SCHEDULED posting.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this
I’m guessing you think I’m a liberal. I’ve been a Republican for more than 20 years (ever since I first started voting). I’m very saddened by the current crop of Republican politicians seemingly hell-bent (heh) on propping up religious issues
And which “religious issues” would that be?
By Ben
August 19, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this
There you go again with your third-grade vision. She does have a point, and her point is our servicemembers are dying and for what reason? Forget about the whole lying thing, we are there, and we have to deal with it. But as the president, he should shoot straight with the people. Not by having one-on-one’s with families, but address the nation and say, “hey look, we are getting a little more than we bargained for in Iraq. But we have to finish what we have started, and it’s going to take time. We need to focus more on our mission and make available the assets and personnel we need.” Forget blowing smoke up everyone’s asses!
And the fact that he doesn’t care about the people over there is apparently obvious. We saw that at his inaugaral ball while he was muckin it up while we took the long ride through the desert. And we see it now while he vacations on his ranch while some of servicemembers have been ducking bullets and flossing sand from in between their teeth for 18-month rotations.
The only thing that makes her a lunatic is thinking that he would really give a damn. Afterall, what sacrifice is HE, his family or anyone else he knows making?
By simon
August 19, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
If Hollywood is filming the sequel to “One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest”, tabonehead, you should be awarded the fully straight-jacketed, rubber-roomed, frothy mouthed, babbling lead role.
By TT
August 19, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this
How many of your children have died fighting for our country, Taboga? You have no idea what Cindy Sheehan feels, and neither do I. But calling someone who sacrificed their son for our freedom a “lunatic” seems ungrateful and unpatriotic at best. Kind of like attacking someone who fought for their country in Vietnam when you were too busy snorting coke to show up for you turn in the service.
By Bruce
August 19, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this
Heather,
That’s my point, but from Raylene’s post she wants us to believe she does. See if you can talk soem sense into her.
By Archie
August 19, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this
Preach Ben, Preach!!! There is nothing wrong with Mrs. Sheehan expressing her point of view and the president himself said so.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this
lets not talk about the war. i just emailed our “president” about it. my husband almost died in a darn car accident over there. his best friend was killed by a bullet that flew past my husband’s head and into his friends.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
I’ll try Bruce, ;). But I am not sure how successful I will be today, she just sent an email to the President chewing him out. Her husband spent 3 years in Iraq and the Marines did him really dirty so she’s not in the mood to debate animal psychology with me right now. You guys better watch out. :)
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this
How many of your children have died fighting for our country, Taboga? You have no idea what Cindy Sheehan feels, and neither do I.
I don’t give a damn what Cindy Sheehan feels! Our nation doesn’t evolve around Cindy Sheehan.
But calling someone who sacrificed their son for our freedom a “lunatic� seems ungrateful and unpatriotic at best.
I am calling a lunatic a lunatic. I don’t care if her son died in Iraq or her son found a cure for cancer - she is a lunatic!
Kind of like attacking someone who fought for their country in Vietnam when you were too busy snorting coke to show up for you turn in the service.
Now there we’re in agreement! Bill Clinton should have never attacked Bob Dole the way he did! You are absolutely right!
By Lurker
August 19, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this
Our dear Fireman would probably do the truck and pipe over the crosses thing. Guy who did it in Crawford did not even live on that road, he came out from Waco to do it.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 09:42 AM | Link to this
I’m sure he’s checking his hotmail right now Raylene. He doesn’t care what’s going on over there. All he cares about is his intentions being met. The sacrifices your husband, his friends and any other servicemember or contractor makes mean nothing to him.
By TT
August 19, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this
I agree, Archie. Maybe the President gives lip service to dissent, but his followers think asking questions makes you unpatriotic. They throw out buzzwords like “Communists,” “Leftists,” and “Pinkos” because they can’t argue with facts. They debate with their hearts and not with their minds, they same way that they vote. How many of them are caught up in the spin that the Republican Party is the only party concerned with America’s morality? I suppose taking care of the elderly, the poor, and the unwanted children in our society does not constitute moral values. And how many of them are so stupid and sheep like that they vote against their own economic interest? Honestly, abortion, gay marriage, and other social issues should not be the platforms for any party. Our politicians should focus on our energy crisis, our deficit, our economy, and the terrorism and immigration problems.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this
i know that ben, but i emailed through www.whitehouse.gov so someone will have to read it. i hate the damn military. they totally screwed over my husband.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this
The next think you know, Archie is going to let us know that the Sun is definitely not the Moon!
He has already stated that homosexuality and incest are different. Now, we’re informed that there is nothing wrong with Cindy Sheehan expressing her views.
Arch,
It is not the expressing that anyone has a problem with, it is the views that are in question. See how that works?
Now, you and Ben pool your intellect and see if the both of you together - can somehow reason that out!
By simon
August 19, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this
Tabonehead,
Why don’t you tell us all about your service to the country? What branch did you serve, for how long? You see, as a Veteran, I REALLY have a problem with those who did not serve criticizing those who do, those who have lost loved ones and those who excercise their constitutional right to question the leadership of our Republic.
It seems that every Bush loving, warmongering, chickenhawk I encounter has never served their country for one minute. Just look at this administration. Not a Veteran among them, but a whole bunch of draft dodging scumbags.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this
I agree, Archie. Maybe the President gives lip service to dissent, but his followers think asking questions makes you unpatriotic. They throw out buzzwords like “Communists,� “Leftists,� and “Pinkos� because they can’t argue with facts. They debate with their hearts and not with their minds, they same way that they vote. How many of them are caught up in the spin that the Republican Party is the only party concerned with America’s morality? I suppose taking care of the elderly, the poor, and the unwanted children in our society does not constitute moral values. And how many of them are so stupid and sheep like that they vote against their own economic interest? Honestly, abortion, gay marriage, and other social issues should not be the platforms for any party. Our politicians should focus on our energy crisis, our deficit, our economy, and the terrorism and immigration problems.
Did Wal-Mart have a sale on platitude and pablum…?
By Renee
August 19, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
Cindy Sheehan has my sympathies. I don’t think anyone can tell a grieving mother how she should or should not handle things. However, it does not help her case that she does not actually want to meet with the president and she was praising him so much after he met with her after her son’s passing.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this
Why don’t you tell us all about your service to the country? What branch did you serve, for how long? You see, as a Veteran, I REALLY have a problem with those who did not serve criticizing those who do, those who have lost loved ones and those who excercise their constitutional right to question the leadership of our Republic.
I couldn’t care less what you have a “problem” with!
By raylene
August 19, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this
thank you simon. very valid point. why doesnt bush grab an AK-47 and get his fat butt out there. i’m sure that daddy would be impressed then.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
Raylene - But that someone will not be the person you want to read it. It will go through some staffer who laughs and hits delete.
By TT
August 19, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this
Taboga— I know you don’t deal in facts, but Bush is the cokehead, Clinton was the potsmoker. Both of them shirked their duty, so they had no right to criticize those who fought for their country. Kind of like you…who has the audacity to criticize the mother of one of our fallen soldiers for wanting some answers. You’re a real arrogant pig. And as far as lunatics go, well, it takes one to know one. Why don’t you head on up to the lake, take a dip, and enjoy your freedom? God knows our troops are fighting hard for your right to sip Natty Light, float on your fat back, and insult their families.
By Archie
August 19, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this
Thanks TT,Philip Verleger, an expert on the oil industry predicted 3 years ago that gas prices would rise to $3/gallon and we all know this is a fact but there were other experts that did not agree and we know they were wrong. The point is that you read different points and get your news from different sources and don’t just repeat the party line to protect a politician because there’s more at stake than I win you lose. The Left isn’t always right but it isn’t always wrong either.
By sct
August 19, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this
raylene, Do you really think you will get a reply from Bush? Afterall he is on a 5 week vacation, besides I hear his schedule is pretty full today.
11:00-Bike riding
12:00-Lunch, Spaghetti-O’s
1:00-Nap
4:00-Play catch with local little leaguers
6:00-Nap
7:00-Dinner, hot dogs
8:00-Campfire, smores
8:30-Bedtime
By raylene
August 19, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this
ben i really dont care if anyone reads it at all. the point is that i wrote it and now i feel better. i made sure to use small words so that it could be understood in case someone did actually read it. you have no clue what i actually wrote about anyway, so how do you know that it will just get deleted? it could be imporant enough for someone to pass up. so before you actually know all the facts and about me and my full views, maybe you should keep your negative comments about me or anything to do with me to yourself.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this
i dont expect to get a response from anyone, i am not a moron. i wrote to get my views off my chest and now i feel much better. even if my letter doesnt change a damn thing, it is out there. so will everyone please drop the subject of me writing a letter. besides that fact that none of you know anything about me or what i wrote. it wasnt directly to him anyway. it was a comment email that goes to the white house.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
TT,
No, I think I will go up to the lake and drink Budweiser, lay on my back, let real women rub my back with oil while the steaks are cooking and continue to “insult” little girls like you who think we all live on Sesame Street where if Elmo can find his blanket - all will be right with the world!
By Ben
August 19, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this
If that’s what makes you feel better Raylene, then all the power to you. But you are right, I have no clue as to what your wrote, but keep me posted on if you get a response or not from G.W. My negative comments had nothing to do you with, my negativity was directed at G.W., so calm yourself down. But just as a suggestion, if you don’t want people to comment on it, best not to put it in a open forum, it would be better to send it to whitehouse.gov.
By Lurker
August 19, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this
Doesn’t compassionate conservatism have such an UGLY face?
By Jack
August 19, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this
I feel for Cindy Sheehan that she has lost a son to the war but if her son could see what his Mama is doing, he would tell her to stop. We do have a volunteer military and those that choose to join know the risks. It’s not like her son was drafted like most of us who went to Vietnam.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
The thing about that Jack, is while today’s military is a volunteer service, we volunteered to support and defend certain things. Iraq is not one of them. This war in Iraq contradicts the oath of enlistment and the purpose of the American military.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
But you are right, I have no clue as to what your wrote, but keep me posted on if you get a response or not from G.W.
“keep me posted…”
You guys should be selling this stuff - I feel like I am boot-legging comedy here!
By sct
August 19, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this
Jack, maybe her son would tell her to stop but maybe Jesus is telling her to continue.
By Tim
August 19, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this
there is not anyone who has a clue what her son would tell her
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this
Ben,
Why don’t you tell us what we are sworn to support and defend…?
And just to be fair - I already know what it is. So, when you do your Google search and find out what an a$$ you’ve made of yourself (needless to say) - I won’t hold it against you when you don’t reply back. See what a good sport I am?
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this
there is not anyone who has a clue what her son would tell her
Right on the money!
By simon
August 19, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this
Jack,
I bet there are a whole bunch of those Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen and Marines who are proud and happy that some among the sheep are speaking up.
As for your comments about the volunteer military, technically you are correct, but I bet a whole lot of those who are caught up in the back door draft on their second and third tours (National Guard) would argue with you about what they signed up for, especially since the National Guard was never, ever designed to be a mainline fighting force in an elective war.
I do thank you for your service in Vietnam, even though it wasn’t necessary, and I am sure that you lost many friends in that pointless endeavor.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this
We swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Last I checked, Saddam, or Iraq were preventing you enjoying your constitutional rights as an American citizen. No need to google it, I took more than a dozen times.
By simon
August 19, 2005 10:50 AM | Link to this
go ahead and attack Ben, tabonehead.
You have yet to respond as to what your service to the country was. You know nothing. just another chickenhawk blowhard. You love this war so much - sign up, at this point I bet they will even take a coward like you.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this
He’s not attacking me, he’s just showing his ignorance.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this
TT,
Is it supposed to rain today?
It’s looking overcast, so I might have to put the top up on the boat to keep my new wireless laptop from getting wet!
It’s hell being me - see what all I have to go through just for a little entertainment!
BTW, how’s the “corporate ladder” working out for you? I haven’t heard anything about it in your last 3 or 4 posts!
By taboga
August 19, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this
We swear to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Last I checked, Saddam, or Iraq were preventing you enjoying your constitutional rights as an American citizen. No need to google it, I took more than a dozen times.
Ben, Ben, now Ben…
You seemed to have left the rest of it out. See if that other idiot Simon can help you with it…
By Ben
August 19, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this
If you are talking about obeying the orders of the president and the officers appointed over me, when only swear to follow “lawful” orders.
By MrDeer
August 19, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this
Wow this is incredible, seems you humans even kill each other for sport.
By TT
August 19, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this
Actually, Taboga, the corporate world is treating me quite well. Are you still working for your Daddy? What is your family business? Tree-cutting, septic tank installations (or outhouse installations), or perhaps you own a landscaping business> I still would like to get the leaves out of my gutters. Do you have e-mail on that wireless laptop of yours? (Such a big toy for a little boy!) I bet business has been slow, and I could always pass your name along to some of my sorority sisters. And BTW: I pity the “real women” who have to massage your cellulite. I guess when you’re blood relations; you have to do things you don’t want to every now and then. Now I know why you’re so passionate about defending incest. You’re gross, Limpy.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this
Ben,
I am sorry I missed it the first time. I guess I was reading the blog and looking at my woman’s nice butt in her bikini at the same time…
But anyway, how did you manage to take the oath of enlistment more than a “dozen” times…?
By Heather
August 19, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this
The war is a truly tragic thing. These are people we are talking about here, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, children. It is really sad.
I feel for Cindy Sheehan, I think her pain must be very great indeed. I feel for Raylene, whose husband has been forever changed by his experiences in Iraq. I feel for George Bush who must carry the burden of responsibility for what is going on. I feel for the people in Iraq who have had their homes destroyed and live in the sort of fear we as Americans have never experienced.
It is easy for all of us to come on some blog and strut our stuff about how so and so should be doing this and so and so should be doing that. But lets not lose sight of the fact that this is a terrible thing we are all suffering together. We are all affected in one way or another.
By Jack
August 19, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this
Ben, I disagree. When you join the military you are the property of the U.S.A. It’s their way or the highway. When I was over there, if you didn’t follow orders you stood the risk of getting shot by “friendly fire”. It’s BS to think that if you are in the service that you can pick and choose what to fight for. You are to do what the commander and chief wants you to do, thats how you earn your benefits. Did you join just to get a free education? I didn’t and boy did I get an education. I don’t agree with the war in Iraq but if I was still in the service I would go because that is what solders do. Imagine how much of a super-power we would be if the rank and file could choose their battles.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this
Well, you take it when you finish signing your contract (1); when you are at the processing station before going to recruit training (2), Twice during recruit training (3&4); once after graduating from Combat training (5) and to reaffirm the oath after promotions (6-12).
But where is it that you were so convinced I made an a* of myself. I’m curious as to your bonehead logic.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this
If you are talking about obeying the orders of the president and the officers appointed over me, when only swear to follow “lawful� orders.
Ben,
I know you don’t realize it - but you have just stumbled onto the “out” for all those guys in Iraq! Just claim the orders are unlawful, lay down their weapons and come home!
Did Archie and tt help you with that - or did you come up with all by your brillian self?
By Ben
August 19, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Jack - You don’t have to agree, I understand. We served at two different times (I believe.) I am no one’s property, maybe my ancestors were, but not me. You do have to follow orders, but you don’t always have to agree with them. I’m not saying that anyone should just pack up their toys and go home; but servicemembers DO have a right to disagree. They have to do what they are ordered to do, but they don’t have to like it. I didn’t join for the free education, I joined for the other personal benefits, money was not my motivator — how dumb would I be to join the military for money? I don’t and didn’t agree with the war in Iraq, but I went too. You’re missing my point, and people took at the world around them, they’d understand. More prevelant threats to are well-being, our constitution and our allies are building power and influence while we are diminishing our capabilities to handle those threats.
By Argy
August 19, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this
Jack,
That argument didn’t work for the German soldiers in the ’40s.
Wait, can you feel it coming… Taboga’s going to say all we Lefists ever do is compare the US military to NAZIS
By taboga
August 19, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this
Well, you take it when you finish signing your contract (1); when you are at the processing station before going to recruit training (2), Twice during recruit training (3&4); once after graduating from Combat training (5) and to reaffirm the oath after promotions (6-12).
But where is it that you were so convinced I made an as of myself. I’m curious as to your bonehead logic.*
Congratulations! I have never heard a phony come up with anything more ridiculous than that!
You have won the prize! But don’t let your guard down - Archie and tt are trying their best to take the championship!
By Ben
August 19, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this
Taboga - Didn’t need any help! But I never suggested we lay down our weapons and come home. My stance has always been to quit b****** and provide the resources necessary, get it done and come home to our families. I would never suggest pulling out early!
By Jack
August 19, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this
Mr.Deer. I find your species quite delicious and healthier than beef. More of you and your friends would survive if you stayed off the road meant for cars. The politicians keep raising the bag limits because too many of your brothers are causing car wrecks that kill us humans, and after all, we are on top of the food chain.
By Argy
August 19, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this
Taboga,
When are all the Rightists going to form up volunteer militias and go get the terrorists in Pakistan?
By Ben
August 19, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this
Taboga - I am convinced that you are as dumb as you sound — and I will add phony to the growing list of names people have called me out of ignorance.
By Argy
August 19, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this
I would never suggest pulling out early!
Yeah, that doesn’t work. Condoms and birth control are much more effective.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this
i thought this blog was supposed to be about homosexuals. arent we a little off subject talking about the war?
By Jack
August 19, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this
Ben. Thank you for clarifying your point. Argy I don’t know what the hell you meant by yours.
TT you will make some man very happy. Good looking and smart. Great combination. Seriously.
Taboga. Great job of stirring things up on the blog. You keep casting and they keep biting.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this
Argy,
Actually, I have rarely heard the Leftists comparing the military to the Nazis.
That comparison is normally reserved for Conservative politicians and supporters.
You know, like when a Conservative says: “We love our country” and the Leftist response is: “That’s Nationalism and that’s how the Nazis got started…!
By taboga
August 19, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this
Taboga. Great job of stirring things up on the blog. You keep casting and they keep biting
Jack,
Just call me the Jaime Escalante of the blog. I have to take an unorthodox approach to getting these Leftists to try and think about things on their own. They have been so dumbed-down by the societal misfits of academia, that thinking and reasoning is a totally foreign concept to them.
I like to call it: Community Service.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this
taboga just makes a fool outta himself all day. and i’m sure “his woman” with her nice butt is really not his woman at all, but rather his sister.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this
Raylene, that could be why he keeps protesting for incest laws. LOL
By Jack
August 19, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this
There is nothing wrong with being on the left. Being on the EXTREME left or right is wrong.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this
The problem with chosing sides is somebody has to lose.
By Lyrics
August 19, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this
We don’t need no education We dont need no thought control No dark sarcasm in the classroom Teachers leave them kids alone Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it’s just another brick in the wall. All in all you’re just another brick in the wall.
We don’t need no education We dont need no thought control No dark sarcasm in the classroom Teachers leave them kids alone Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone! All in all it’s just another brick in the wall. All in all you’re just another brick in the wall.
“Wrong, Do it again!” “If you don’t eat yer meat, you can’t have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat yer meat?”
By Jack
August 19, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this
Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall.
By Lyrics
August 19, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this
“Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall”
fits right in with all this marrying-your-daughter stuff.
What happened to the religious wars? Protestant vs. Catholic? This blog was getting a 16th-century feel. Oh, it has that feel anyway.
By Jack
August 19, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this
Dilbert.
By taboga
August 19, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this
Raylene,
I can tell that all that emotional distress earlier about bullets whizzing by your husband’s head - has subsided.
But hey, you could go and get in that ditch in Crawford - they need a replacement down there for Cindy. You can give the President an ear-full down there!
By Heather
August 19, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this
Where did everyone go?
By Matt
August 19, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this
Angie: Just curious, but are you perhaps an ex-Catholic? Ever taken any of the catechism classes?
By raylene
August 19, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this
i would, but i have a child to take care of, and i have a job. apparently, unlike you. maybe you should go in a ditch and stay there.
By Jack
August 19, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
They’re probably at lunch Heather. Us slaves have to eat while we work.LOL
By Heather
August 19, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this
My ex-partner was Catholic. She told me that while she was taking classes to prepare for her baptism, she seduced her teacher. She confessed to her priest that she was gay. The priest told her that God did not approve but that the Catholic Church had decided gays did not go to hell. Now she was a big liar and couldn’t tell the truth for anything. I believed her at the time but now, I have to laugh. We went to her church once, everyone was very nice and polite.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
What do you do, Jack?
By Ben
August 19, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this
The Church “decided” that gays did not go to hell, or did they realize they were wrong?
By Heather
August 19, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this
Well, she was lying of course. But her story was that the priest told her that while God did not approve of homosexuality, she would not go to hell for it. I don’t know if she really believed that, or if she was just trying to make herself feel better. I honestly think she thinks she is going to hell. She had a lot of religious issues.
By Boscoe
August 19, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this
Angie, I think you need to do some research. You are dreadfully wrong! You are basing you’re whole religious belief on the bible exclusively and the bible nevers says anywhere in it that it contains all truth. In fact it says quite the opposite. You cannot back up any of these accusations with lucid thought, when you can you may speak to me again. How can an ordinary woman give birth to the extraordinary Christ? The extraordinary Christ could only be born of an extraordinary woman! Today, the devil is wagging his ugly tail more than ever, and with some whiteout and some whitewash, is seeking to blot out Mary from Scripture and tradition. And, no doubt about it, modern bibles have altered many passages concerning Mary, de-emphasizing her role in God’s plan of salvation. Take, for instance, those famed words of God through the Angel Gabriel, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee…,” meaning Mary was full of God’s grace and that the devil never had any part of her, as was used by Pope Pius XI in his definition on the Immaculate Conception. But what has become of these words in many a modern bible? “Rejoice, highly favored daughter.” The question is: what does it mean to be a highly favored daughter? Were not Judith, Deborras and Esther highly favored daughters? No matter how special these were, Mary is much more. She, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, is “the new Eve, ‘full of grace’ of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death. Other passages referring to Our Lady from what was formerly called Ecclesiasticus (now called Sirach), are completely missing from modern versions. Passages that the Church has applied to Our Lady such as, “I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits. For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb. My memory is unto everlasting generations”, etc., are gone. Also, amazingly the passage “blessed art thou among women” of St. Luke’s Gospel (Luke 1:28) is completely missing in action from many of the new bibles. Surely, the devil’s tail has wiped out and whited-out these praises of Our Lady. In the first place, the foundation of this doctrine [the Immaculate Conception] is to be found in Sacred Scripture, where we are taught that God, Creator of all things, after the sad fall of Adam, addressed the serpent, the tempter and corrupter, in these words, which not a few Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many approved interpreters applied to the Virgin Mother of God: ‘I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed’ (Gen. III, 15) Now, if at any time the Blessed Virgin Mary were destitute of Divine grace even for the briefest moment, because of contamination in her conception by the hereditary stain of sin, there would not have come between her and the serpent that perpetual enmity spoken of from earliest tradition down to the time of the solemn definition of the Immaculate Conception, but rather a certain subjection. If you have any more questions Angie take a look at Fatima.
By kimberly
August 19, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this
Oh, LOOKIE! It’s HELL week on the blog! What-EVER!
By Toe Booger
August 19, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this
‘I’m not a Christian but I think they are unfairly maligned and bashed all the time by people who call them stupid because the Christians called them evil. Of course, when Christians call them ‘evil,’ that’s hunky-dory, and it isn’t bashing at all. After all, the Christians think that’s what God wants them to do. Of course, I’ll remind you again that I’m not a Christian, but I just think their opinions are always more legitimate and that anyone who disagrees with them is bashing them. Whether it’s evolution or gays or whatever, Christians relying upon a 2000-year-old book in which I do not believe, are far more legitimate in their opinions than those misguided leftists relying silly scientific research.’
“It doesn’t matter, the Left will bash Christians and Bush.”
“Just call me the Jaime Escalante of the blog. I have to take an unorthodox approach to getting these Leftists to try and think about things on their own. They have been so dumbed-down by the societal misfits of academia, that thinking and reasoning is a totally foreign concept to them.�
………………What’s the sound of one man masturbating to a photograph of himself?
By Renee
August 19, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this
I don’t think I am going to hell, and I don’t think anyone else can tell me for sure I am. They can tell me what they personally believe, what they have been taught, but that’s the thing about religion. Nobody knows who is right and/or wrong. Different religions believe different outcomes, believe people should/should not exhibit different behaviors and believe people are bad or good. Everyone believes their way is right, everyone elses is wrong, and they are bad for believing that way. Generally speaking the preacher is out to get a wad of money to support his lavish lifestyle.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this
So Boscoe, let me ask you this. What about Mary’s mother? Could the extraordinary mother of the extraordinary Christ have been born to someone who was not extraordinary? Where does that end?
By raylene
August 19, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this
btw taboga that was definitely not emotional distress earlier. that was being p** off at the injustice of this country. of the way the military is allowed to treat its war veterans.
By ANGIE
August 19, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this
Matt, no, I’ve never been a catholic. I have done extensive research on catholicism off and on over the past 10 years or so-which I restarted earlier this year.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
LMAO
By Jack
August 19, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this
I’m a middle management peon for MaBell.
By Archie
August 19, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this
The Bible speaks about having sex out of wedlock as a sin but there’s no marching against it. I would like to see the Bishop Eddie Long march against that but then some of the folk marching with him now might have to stay home. It was tough for me as straight guy to admit my earlier opinions of homosexuality weren’t right but you can learn something when you’re open-minded. As a christian I think we rely more on tradition than actual scripture and we are in denial. I haven’t read anything that says your inborn preference can be changed but your outward behavior can be changed. There are people that think you’re going to hell if you go to a nightclub so whatever…
By Heather
August 19, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this
MaBell, as in Bell South? Raylene and I work at the corporate office of one of the wireless companies.
By TT
August 19, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this
Anyone notice that Taboga has never told us what he does for a living? He’s accused Ben of being a phony, even though Ben has fought for his country, he has accused Raylene of being an idiot, even though she is in school to be a veterinarian, and he has a big problem with the corporate world and academia. Sounds like you’re just bitter, Taboga. Everyone else is making something of themselves and you’re still living in your father’s shadow. You’re just like Stay-at-Home Mom, who blames her husband’s affair on homosexuals. I guess it’s the fault of the Leftists that you couldn’t get into college and you’re stuck shoveling manure for a living.
You must call me “little girl” because of your Lolita complex. Face the facts, T. You’re a 50-something, fat, balding loser that lives in your parents’ basement. My friends and I make fun of disgusting old men like you that pop up on Saturdays in Virginia Highlands looking for some unsuspecting girl with abandonment issues. If you weren’t such a mean little misogynist, I would feel sorry for you.
Jack: You are such a doll. I’m glad that we’re blog buddies. Much love to Ben and Kimberly too! Look out, fundies, it’s a Liberal love fest!! Sin! Sin! Sin!
By Matt
August 19, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this
Angie, again just curious, but does the official catechism of the Catholic church fall into the list of materials included in your extensive research?
By Ben
August 19, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this
Why would the military OR the government treat their war veterans with respect and dignity, Raylene? They got what they wanted out of them already, let the VA deal with it.
Before you go getting upset, I am being sarcastic.
By kimberly
August 19, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this
Archie, Hell is being married to a drunken, insecure, uneducated redneck whose complete, life-long reading list consists of Penthouse and Golf Digest. Salvation comes in the form of Satan as a divorce attorney.
As to the issue of sexual preference, most men are in love with themselves first and foremost, and put themselves first in all decisions regarding love and sex. And since most (but not all) of them are indeed the same gender as themselves, then they are, by definition, homosexuals. The burning question (ooo, bad pun) then becomes, can such a man marry himself, and by doing so, is he then in Hell?
By Jack
August 19, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this
AT&T Heather. That’s all I can say. Big brother may be watching!
Ditto TT.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this
Archie, if sex gets in the way of your relationship with God, you will go to hell. The Bible is very specific about this. All sexual sin is sin. So it is wrong to participate in sexual sin and condemn gay people. Then you are not only coming sexual sin but you are also a hypocrite.
No we don’t have people out marching against sex outside of marriage. Can you image the chaos that would cause? People are not even willing to give up killing unborn children, you think they are going to give up the sex that caused the unborn child to be created in the first place.
80% of the people in Georgia voted to ban gay marriage. I am sure 80% of the people in Georgia would not be willing to give up sex outside of marriage. Does that make those people hypocrites? yes Does those people being hypocrites mean that gay marriage is the best thing for our society? no
By Whiley
August 19, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Someone wake me up before Will & Grace starts.
By Renee
August 19, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this
Gay marriage will affect the society how? How do you know it will affect the society since it hasn’t been legalized? Have HOMOSEXUALS affected society by themselves. What a lot of power we have.
Seems like we have things a whole lot worse “affecting the society”. Like I said I moved to a state where it is perfectly legal, and I don’t see a “bad society”. But of course I’m a sinning homosexual, what do I know.
By Chilao
August 19, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this
I lived in East LA, San Gabriel really, when all that came down. Didn’t Jaime Escalante actually teach the students to approach/do everything the same way, requiring the students to have to do the test over since they were accused of cheating? Certainly not trying to discount what he accomplished in East LA, but.
Good analogy, for sure. Now if we could all end up thinking the Right way.
By Jack
August 19, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this
Gays affecting society? Wasn’t Aristotle & Socrates gay? Newton?
By Heather
August 19, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this
I was simply pointing out that two wrongs don’t make a right. But you know, maybe gay marriage would be the best thing for our society. I don’t know. It would certainly end the debate and maybe cool some of the anger against God that has built up.
By Scalia
August 19, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
It is Friday afternoon. It is time to drink Corona, watch ESPN hoping to catch a highlight of Javy Lopez’s butt (that is a ten on the booty scale) bent over or squatting, and have a good time.
By Renee
August 19, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this
Who’s angry against God?
By Tom
August 19, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this
reparative therapy is certainly a bunch of garbage. One’s sexual identity is not a choice like say choosing between apples and oranges. I can’t think of any rational logic that would justify one’s environment as a factor in one’s identity. The only choice that gay’s and lesbians really have is to be happy with themselves or not.
Denial is a strong tool but eventually it will become an ineffective tool in repairing the emotional and mental anguish a person suffers from it. The fact of the matter is that homosexuality exists and just because it goes against the grain of ones beliefs, morals etc etc absolutely does not mean that gay men and women should be treated as second class citizens or in any way shape or form be made to feel guilty or ashamed. I would certainly hope that any logical, rational thinking person, whether religious or not, would know that gay men and women do not want to change the views, beliefs, values of those opposed to homosexuality, they want to be treated with equal rights, dignity and respect just like anyone on this planet would want to be treated. I am opposed to George Bush being president but just because I oppose his policies, views, beliefs etc doesn’t mean that it changes the fact he is president whether I like it or not. Reparative therapy and denial will never work no matter how opposed a person(s) is/are to homosexuality. There are much more important things in life than to debate for or against homosexuality, it is a fact of life, like death and taxes.
If everyone were same, this would be a very, very boring planet.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
i know ben. sorry for snapping earlier. the subject is a little hard for me after almost losing my husband, and he missed the birth of our son because the marines kept changing the date of return. they also were letting other marines go home for the birth of their children, but would not let him. but about your recent post, its kinda true. the military doesnt care about their service men. i wish it wasnt that way.
By Ben
August 19, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
Have a good weekend people. It’s my anniversary, so I’m going to woo might wife with diamonds and dinner. Then hopefully we can make a little sin.
By Crystal
August 19, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this
Well, I wasn’t going to stop after all the yucky stuff this week. As my grandmother would say,”Why would anybody want to tell everybody about personal indecency?” I can’t answer that. Fortunately, she doesn’t read blogs. (It would endanger her health.)
Reading on, Taboga said he wanted people to “think”, a lofty goal, indeed. The impossible dream? I also find his honest patriotism like fresh air in a toxic haze. But most of all, he makes me laugh. Please don’t stop, Taboga. And for all, STAY SWEET!
By Renee
August 19, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this
I’m just wondering why anyone would CHOOSE to be ostricized (not sure if I spelled right) by society, their family, their friends. Why would someone CHOOSE to be scorned upon and looked down upon for no reason.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this
Renee, why does anyone do anything?
By Jack
August 19, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this
Javy Lopez’s butt? I like Jennifer’s much better. LOL
By Ilona
August 19, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
My point is nobody would choose to be something that they are not, especially when that choice puts you in the bottomfeeder section of society. I’m sure in days of slavery, if people had a choice to be black, they wouldn’t be.
My sexuality was not a choice, and I don’t know anyone who has chosen this. They have tried to mask it because of fear of isolation from family, friends etc., they have even tried to deny it to themselves. But nobody I know, chose it.
By raylene
August 19, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this
i think that would be the point. it isnt a choice. it is something that people are born with. and if we want to use the arguement of choice… do straight people choose to be that way? if someone has the choice of being gay or straight then that would mean that everyone could possibly be gay. hmmm…
By Heather
August 19, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this
I feel your pain. I don’t have an answer for you. Why are gay people gay? No one really knows. We can all come on here and argue about it and say we know but no one really does.
Why are some people born with big birthmarks on their face? Why are some people born with ADHD? Why are some people born blind?
Why do some people choose to murder? Why do some people choose to rape? Why do some people choose to beat their wives?
All that I know is that God is there for people who are laughed at for having a messed up face, people with ADHD, blind people. He is there for the murderer and the victim. He is there for the rapist and the victim. He is there for the abuser and the abusee. So He must be there for the gay person as well. Whether is it a choice or genetics, He is there.
You have to decide where you stand with God, no one can do it for you or know what your relationship is with Him. The only reference we have is scripture. So be open and honest and read scripture with a heart that is willing to listen. Ask God to show you His will and be willing to make His will your will. That is where you will find the answers to all these questions for yourself. Then regardless of what someone tells you, you will be able to discern the truth.
By Archie
August 19, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this
Heather you’re right that two wrongs don’t make a right but as christians we are consistently hypocritical and traditional. We buy bootleg tapes, we buy boxes that enable us to bootleg cable, and we go on vacation trips to Jersey city, southern baptists apologize for slavery, preachers lie about their credentials, preachers lie about their sexual preference, preachers lie about sexual habits(see the new york newspapers over the last two weeks), as christians we commit sin after sin and we say we will make it to heaven because of belief and confession, then we go right back to another group of sins. Homosexual marriage is about the “benjamins” and order and let’s move from bias and let them(gays) live their lives to the fullest.
By Heather
August 19, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this
Okay Archie. But not all Christians do the things you mentioned. Some do, but not all. At least I hope not. But Jesus did say that the road to the Kingdom of God was narrow and only a few would ever find it. He said that the road to hell was wide and I can see that it is. I am sure many of the people walking the road to hell are Christians who think all is well. It makes me sad, I actually feel very sad right now because what you have said is so very very true. If people who have read His Word, and who know His Word still choose to not follow His Word, what is left?
By ANGIE
August 19, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this
Boscoe, I don’t have much time as it is Friday and work is overflowing at the moment. I will answer you Monday if the blog is available. But I would like to leave you with a few things to think about…
Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” Pope Pius IX said: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.”
In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY — Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. (“Catechism” 496-511) Matthew 1:24-25 says, “Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” “Till” (until) means that after that point, Joseph did “know” (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam “knew” Eve and she conceived and had a son.) MOTHER OF GOD — Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (“Catechism” 963, 971, 2677).
The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. ASSUMPTION — At the end of her life, Mary was taken up (“assumed”) body and soul into Heaven. (“Catechism” 966, 974)
There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn’t John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1-18.)
The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church. In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have “infallible” popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another “infallible” pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine.
CO-MEDIATOR — Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. (“Catechism” 968-970, 2677)
There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.” Ephesians 3:12 says, “In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.” The Catholic Church officially states that Church tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. (“Catechism” 80, 84, 86, 97) The problem is that Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. (“Catechism” 78, 98, 113, 2650, 2661) It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can’t really put your hands on exactly what it is. The Early Fathers used Scripture as the standard against which they tested Church tradition. The modern Catholic doctrine that Church tradition is equal in authority with the Bible is contrary to the writings of the Early Fathers. According to Jesus, Scripture is the plumb line for measuring everything else. He judged religious traditions by comparing them to Scripture. When religious traditions contradicted Scripture, he condemned them. This shows clearly that nothing is equal in authority to Scripture. The Bible stands alone as the standard by which all other things are to be judged. According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. (“Catechism” 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050) The claim for papal infallibility does not stand up to the test of history. For example, Pope Zosimus (417-418 A.D.) reversed the pronouncement of a previous pope. He also retracted a doctrinal pronouncement that he himself had previously made. Pope Honorious was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council (680-681 A.D.). He was also condemned as a heretic by Pope Leo II, as well as by every other pope until the eleventh century. So here we have “infallible” popes condemning another “infallible” pope as a heretic. In 1870, the First Vatican Council abolished “infallible” papal decrees and the decrees of two “infallible” councils. In the seventeenth century, the Catholic church officially condemned Galileo as a heretic because he taught that the earth revolves around the sun. This did not conflict with the Bible or with the teachings of the Early Fathers. However, it was contrary to seventeenth century Catholic theology. The Greek philosopher Aristotle taught that the sun revolves around the earth. Aristotle influenced Thomas Aquinas, a thirteenth century theologian and “doctor of the Church” whose theology had a major impact on the Catholic Church. Some modern astronomers believe that Galileo was right. Others believe that Einstein’s theory of relativity makes the question irrelevant. Either way, Galileo was not a heretic for disagreeing with Aristotle. The “infallible” pronouncement of the Catholic Church regarding Galileo’s teaching was wrong.
And lastly for the day, there are many new translations of the bible. I do NOT agree with them. I believe in a literal translation from Hebrew and Greek to English. Certainly not changing the words to suit the times! You made a good point-you have to watch which bible you read. The catholic church’s version, new reworded translations, or a literal translation from Hebrew and Greek. I use a parallel bible with the Hebrew on one side and English on the other as well as the NT with Greek and English. I want to know the word of God by using the original language-at least as close to it as I can get.
The catechism makes for interesting reading. Compare it to scripture. But then you don’t go by scripture but instead by the words of fallible popes who have been some of the most dispicable men in history. I choose to use the bible for my source of what God wants me to believe. More Monday…work calls and I’m ready for the weekend. God bless you and may your eyes be opened to the truth.
By ANGIE
August 19, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this
As to Fatima and all the apparitions around the world… The Marian apparitions clearly contradict the teachings of Scripture. The apparitions’ thousands of messages portray a Queen who possesses all of Christ’s distinct characteristics. She is said to be our Mediator, our Intercessory, our Advocate, our Coredeemer, our Suffering Servant, and many other titles that reveal her deceptive agenda. Let’s consider how Satan has tempted in the past. When tempting Jesus, Satan accurately quoted Scripture. Satan knew that he couldn’t deceive Jesus with an outright lie, but that he must use subtle deception. Likewise, Satan often mixes a subtle lie in with truth. He is the master of deception. Not many within the church would worship or follow him if he were to appear wearing a red suit and carrying a pitchfork. No, the grandest of all deceptions are those that are mostly true. The Book of Revelation warns about a counterfeit religious system. Bible-believing Christians call this global religion the counterfeit bride. John the apostle labeled this false church the harlot. The Scriptures also indicate the harlot is associated with a “queen.” (In Revelation she is adorned in purple and scarlet-the colors of the priests and cardinals and bishops and popes many robes. She holds in her hand a golden cup full of abominations-seen any golden cups in the catholic church? In Revelation chapter eighteen we read: For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, …In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day; death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”
John is not the only prophet who saw there was a queen and that this queen would be judged for the whole world to see at the end of the age. The prophet Isaiah also warned about a deceiving woman called the “virgin daughter of Babylonâ€? who would be judged by God. In the 47th chapter of Isaiah we read: Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; Sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no more be called Tender and delicate. Take the millstones and grind meal. Remove your veil, take off the skirt, Uncover the thigh, Pass through the rivers. Your nakedness shall be uncovered, yes, your shame will be seen; I will take vengeance, and I will not arbitrate with a man. As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel. Sit in silence, and go into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans; for you shall no longer be called The Lady of Kingdoms. Who is this “Lady of Kingdoms” that Isaiah is prophesying about? Apparently she is a female entity that has played a deceptive role and is somehow connected to the pagan religious practices of ancient Babylon. Isaiah’s words bring a strong retribution and condemnation upon those who have rejected the true Redeemer, the “Holy One of Israelâ€? - the LORD of hosts is His name. We know from biblical history that a queen, (the Queen of Heaven) has played a significant role in deluding people of the past. Is it possible that this same Queen of Heaven will delude the world once more? Is the apparition of Mary paving the way for such a delusion? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN…that they may provoke me to anger. Jeremiah 7:18
As a side note you may have wondered why the popes and bishops wear the funny looking hat called a mitre. Go to any resource that’s immediately available-a bookstore, the internet, a library, etc-and search for “Dagon”. This was a Babylonian god that curiously wears a hat just like the pope. There are photos out there that have a side by side comparison of Dagon and the pope wearing their mitres. Now you have to agree this hat is unique and no one on earth would wear one except the catholic pope and bishops…right Boscoe? Look at Dagon’s hat and tell me if you see what I see. Look in the middle of St.Peter’s square…what do you see? An obelisk that came from Egypt where it was placed outside the temple where they worshipped the sun. Look at the popes robes with the sun images on them. Look at the round wafer in the shape of the sun. Look at the monstrance and it’s sun-burst design. The RCC is nothing but revised pagan Babylonian religion that the devil himself mixed with a few Christian words and has used to try and hijack the real Christian church. The ultimate deception…he even used this false church to burn REAL Christians at the stake…. See you next week….