Woman to Woman

By Boscoe

March 28, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this

Excuse me, I would to comment on a post from the last column that I did not have the opportunity to respond to prior to today. To my friend mit this was taken off the same web site that you claim I plagiarized. In the scientific community when one develops a scientific theory the task to determine if that theory is reasonable is NOT to prove it is true but to prove that it is false. If no adequate explanation can be made to disprove a theory then it is shown to have merit. Such is the case with the Shroud. It has not been proved to be false. This quote is taken from (WWW.shroud.com the very web site you mention) the expansive scientific 1978 tests that were performed on the Shroud. No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image. Ultra Violet and infrared evaluation confirm these studies. Computer image enhancement and analysis by a device known as a VP-8 image analyzer show that the image has unique, three-dimensional information encoded in it. Microchemical evaluation has indicated no evidence of any spices, oils, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death. It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with a body, which explains certain features such as scourge marks, as well as the blood. However, while this type of contact might explain some of the features of the torso, it is totally incapable of explaining the image of the face with the high resolution that has been amply demonstrated by photography. The basic problem from a scientific point of view is that some explanations which might be tenable from a chemical point of view, are precluded by physics. Contrariwise, certain physical explanations which may be attractive are completely precluded by the chemistry. For an adequate explanation for the image of the Shroud, one must have an explanation which is scientifically sound, from a physical, chemical, biological and medical viewpoint. At the present, this type of solution does not appear to be obtainable by the best efforts of the members of the Shroud Team. Furthermore, experiments in physics and chemistry with old linen have failed to reproduce adequately the phenomenon presented by the Shroud of Turin. The scientific concensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the microfibrils of the linen itself. Such changes can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes. A similar type of change in linen can be obtained by sulfuric acid or heat. However, there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately. Thus, the answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery.We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved.… MIT,ANY THEORY ABOUT THE FALSEHOOD OF THE SHROUD HAS BEEN DETERMINED, BY SCIENTIFIC EVIENCE, TO BE LACKING AS A REASONABLE EXPLANATION TO THE CAUSE OF ITS CREATION. You may apologize about the plagiarism comment you made any time you’re ready. Thank you to all the members who post here. I will not comment on this issue again.

By Archie

March 28, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

This is a odd topic for this newspaper because all of the women Cynthia Tucker,Dianne,Shanti, and Ms Tuck write opinion columns. I don’t want to stereotype but the african-american women have always written abrasive and it does not bother me one bit since I write to Ms. Tucker often to compliment her on a well-written article. I do believe that opinion columnists need to be more diverse but I don’t have a problem finding opinion columns written by women and most of the columns I read don’t deal with some feminist issue but issues that matter to everyone and they are abrasive. Check out Tonya Weathersbee from the Jacksonville newspaper. I have said before that I have no problem with women’s rights but I do have a problem with the overkill version of feminism,in other words, when men are blamed for everything. If anyone reads the columns of Ms Cynthia Tucker or Ms Weathersbee you will know exactly where they stand but there’s no generalized male-bashing in their columns just conservative-bashing. Bottom line is that I don’t have a problem with strong opinions because I may agree with them regardless of gender.

By Lyrazel

March 28, 2005 09:14 AM | Link to this

Being a woman who works for herself any success I made is my own. I credit my talent, my ability to snag a customer, to produce a product that is exactly what my client wants when they want it. Agressive? You bet because the wolves of competition are waiting for me to slack off with drool on their chops—get out of their way. Am I ever a b***? Only on-line :-) To be blunt my clients would never tollerate a b***, nor would my crew. B*** never makes a good leader, b*** is what sheep do as they head to the slaughterhouse of unemployment…

Frankly I think Shaunti has this one wrapped up and baked with butter. Is it just me or are younger generations screaming unfair, sexist, rasist, whenever they can just because they are used to special treatment their whole lives? Should I feel pity because they cant make 200,000 right out of college like they can on TV?

Sexism, Diane? …I had an option of two paths, mommy and teacher. If I really wanted a career I could be a nurse because everything else was a mans occupation. Going to a 4-year university was a place where young women went marry men. As a woman who watched generations of little girls aim unrestricted lives toward lofty goals, doctor, lawyer, indian chief, I am proud of the womens movement accomplishments despite its setbacks. (Yes, there is a woman Indian Chief, CEO and Sec. of State). Wow. So much has changed in America except drivel…and frankly, hearing women complain womens voices are not being heard because of ubermen is unworthy of the female editors who hired them.

The real truth is age! Here we have a young opinion jockey swimming in a sea of entrenched opinion writers who are probably my age. Ever been called a dinosaur? Just wait until gray hair hits and obviously your opinions are no longer valid. So all us people hired-before-you-were-born are portrayed as biased, dominating, rasists, unwilling to make room for sweet voices of youthful achievers. Like we should curl up and retire on some squeaky femmes lack of progress? I dont think so.

Diane, you make it on your own or you dont make it. Male, female whatever age sex or race—indeed the louder you scream ‘injustice’ the easier it is for some female boss to take your job and say…”shove it.”

By mit

March 28, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

boscoe, i will not apologize for calling you a plagiarizer because you took someone else’s idea about the effects of sun bleaching on the shroud and acted like it was your idea. your a plagiarizer in that aspect. as for as what you cut and paste, i ain’t reading all that. don’t really care anymore and aren’t these posts suppose to be limited to 300 words? that looks like way more than 300.

bye plagiarizer.

By mit

March 28, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

by the way, your thinking about the scientific process is flawed.

“In the scientific community when one develops a scientific theory the task to determine if that theory is reasonable is NOT to prove it is true but to prove that it is false. If no adequate explanation can be made to disprove a theory then it is shown to have merit.”

I will inform you for your later posts on the scientific process.

By Boscoe

March 28, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

mit. The idea that the sun would bleach an object that sits outdoors is not exactly a complicated scientific issue. Any person who hangs laundry outside on a line to dry is familiar with the effects the sun has. The fact that somebody would draw the same conclusion with regards to the suns effects isn’t that much of a reach. I’m glad to see that you act like a grown up when someone disputes your claims though. It has been amusing talking to you mit.

By mit

March 28, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

i wasn’t done.

maybe its the wording you use. “the task to determine if that theory is reasonable is NOT to prove it is true but to prove that it is false.” anyway, you plagiarized an idea in an article on the AJC, not on that web site.

“If no adequate explanation can be made to disprove a theory then it is shown to have merit.â€?

explanation, do you mean evidence?

so the shroud, it hasn’t been proven to be from the 1st century. so there is no evidence linking it to jesus. all you have is a hypothesis is was from him. now you need evidence. the proof of the shroud being from the middle ages has been challenged but not proven false. though that los alamos guy says he has evidence, i haven’t seen it (don’t care to). but the shroud has been restored and any evidence for 1st century origins can therefore be challenged just as easily. and we will never know until someone comes up with a way to duplicate the process. the catholic church doesn’t care about authenticity (sp?) the shroud is a relic, so it doesn’t need be authentic.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Overkill version of feminism? What exactly does that mean? Since when is discussing FACTS blaming men for everything? or male bashing?

Why is a strong opinionated female “b***”? I don’t believe I’ve EVER heard that term used to describe ANY male. EVER.

By Sandy

March 28, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

The “family-friendly options” mentioned by Shaunti are a pipe dream; it is felt that women are not going to be taken seriously in any ambitious career, let alone those involving strong opinions if they “care” about their families. These so-called choices have always been available to to th wealthy, but are a joke to regular working middle class families. There are fewer female commentators because the culture does not support working women or working families, unless they already come from a priveleged world. Reference Judith Warner’s book, “Perfect Madness” for a thorough analysis. She sites that, “More than a decade into the era of ‘family-friendly policies,’ more than a third of all working parents in America have neither sick leave nor vacation leave. …What this much vaunted assertion of of rferre choice impo,ies is taking parttime jobs with few advancment opportunities and often no benefits.” Further, the “culture of the workplace strongly pressures parents against choosing” these so-called options.

And there is blame and responsibility to be placed on both liberal and conservative sides:

“The culture war has made pragmatic, real-life thinking about the situtation of families in America, and of mothers in particular, almost impossible. On the left, it has been made impossible because mainstream feminism has permitted no articulation of a vision of women’s equality that gives too large a role to motherhood. On the right, it has been made impossible by conservatives’ twin religions of free market econmoics and Christian fundamentalist “family values.”

Middle class working women are set up for failure: If we do well at work, our families suffer; if we do well at home, our work suffers. Men generally don’t accept all this responsibility like women do.

And finally, there’s the metaphor that is very much alive, of woman not being appreciative of doors being opened for her by the male establishment, and thus having them slammed, particularly if she has strong opinions about things other than fashion, gossip, or toilet training. on’t want to hear from a woman.

By Boscoe

March 28, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Mit. One of my hobbies is woodworking. To obtain a certain petina in selected wood to be used on a project I will …listen carefully….BLEACH IT IN THE SUN! Protest as you may this is not a secret idea. In fact it’s pretty well known and used in a variety of ways. It’s not plagiarism, GET OVER IT!.

By mit

March 28, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

“The fact that somebody would draw the same conclusion with regards to the suns effects isn’t that much of a reach.”

this states exactly what i am talking about. you are acting like you drew that conclusion before you read that article and you didn’t. you took someone else’s idea from the article and then repeated it like you actually thought of it, saying the guy in the article just drew the same conclusion you did. When in fact you are just agreeing with him. therefore you plagiarized.

diane and shaunti, today’s topic stinks.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

mit, it’s OK if the topic stinks, everyone starts arguing about religion anyway.

By Crystal

March 28, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

More women columnists need to be featured? I’m ready and willing to write all they want. I was a high school editor. So there!

Uh, oh. I haven’t written a book, am not a PhD, don’t quote statistics or Greek scholars, didn’t CEO a company, am not an editor for a large newspaper. My degree did not come from Harvard. I DO have “womanly” opinions. That is not what male editors want and most editors are male. Sure, I write well. (My husband said so.) I could “trash” the president, the country and all things conservative and the AJC might print me. But I’m not a Molly Ivins or a Maureen Doud. I don’t have any good recipes and nobody ever volunteered to change my flat tire. I don’t hug trees. I haven’t cheated stockholders out of any money. I’m not even one of those super feminists either.

Guess I won’t get a column. Life is tough, isn’t it? Gee whiz! And I write so well! (You can stop laughing now. I know it is all ENVY!)

By Archie

March 28, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

I don’t think the topic stinks. It should make you think about women opinion columnists. I guess because I read many opinion columns by women on politics and sports I didn’t know there was a shortage. However, I am from the south and there seems to be a number of good female opinion writers between South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. I liked Crystal’s post. The title of this column is “Woman to Woman” so I think the topic is just fine and like someone said eventually people will just start discussing religion, which is kind of wasteful when you can go and look for female opinion columnists and debate about whether Dianne or Shanti has the more valid point.

By mit

March 28, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

ok, i will elaborate on my comment.

Archie was right in that i too have never noticed a lack of female opinion writers; or more precisly ‘liberal’ ones.

shaunti uses her same ole cop out: women have to choose between job or family. i am sure this is true to some point. you just use it too much.

I just don’t agree that it totally works in this situation, though I don’t know fully, but it seems to me that writing an opinion that shows up in the paper once or twice a week is not that time consuming. (is she actually defending liberal females? amazing)

Diane i can’t seem to find your opinion on this. except opinionated females have problems in the conservative climate. I don’t see it.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

Many women feel they are entitled to everything. A career, if they want, stay at home if they want, all the while asking for an entitlement. The women’s movement and the right to choose is under attack because it backs women even when they are wrong and being unfair. Many feminist groups are opposed to child support in Georgia changing to a guideline based on the income of both parents. In the modern world, most families are two-income families. Fair is fair, but most “radical” feminists only want “fairness” when it benefits a woman. Most fathers and non-custodial parents in Georgia are facing discrimination.

By JohnR

March 28, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure that I actually “get” Diane’s argument. There seems to be plenty of Female opinion writers out there, on both sides of the coin. Is it proportinate to the population? probably not, but it’s hardly something to get your dander up about, very similar to last week’s topic about Bush, and the illegal taping. Nothing there that most of us didn’t already know, or care about for that matter. Hard to get worked up over the absence of female “liberal” opinion writers, or the supposed conspiracy, sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. Can’t believe I’m siding with Shaunti over this one. That’s pretty scary.

By Scott

March 28, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Why does it matter what sex the opinion writer is? It has nothing to do with how I view the opinion. I either see merit in the opinion or not.

Just for the record whiley, b*** is b***, whether the person is male or female.. :)

By Scott

March 28, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

With all the topics to discuss in the world….this column has not been very good the last two weeks

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

(I agree Scott ! !) :)

“Many women feel they are entitled to everything. A career, if they want, stay at home if they want, all the while asking for an entitlement.”

Oh my ! Who are these horrible women that want a choice in their lives if it’s possible? (instead of having only one: housewife)
Having kids had sweet little effect on my father’s career, whereas it defined my mom’s life course, including subsequent return to work, single motherhood, etc. No wonder he was all for having kids. Gina (I’m assuming you are female) how would you like NO choice other than motherhood? Still think feminism is so bad? If so, quit your job, school, voting rights, credit cards, bank accounts, right to divorce, etc. (shall I continue?)

“The women’s movement and the right to choose is under attack because it backs women even when they are wrong and being unfair.”

Oh really? wrong or unfair about what?

“Fair is fair, but most “radicalâ€? feminists only want “fairnessâ€? when it benefits a woman.”

So if feminism only improves the lives of women, it has no value or importance. What this is really about is that feminism only has value if it works on behalf of men and improves the lives of men. It wasn’t men who had to spend 2500 years of human history without the right to vote. It wasn’t men who weren’t considered people under the law until last century. When women gain a bit of equality, suddenly it’s gone too far!

Tell you what feminist bashers, prepare your daughters for life in the real world then. Pay her less pocket money than your son.

Feminism is still relevant.

By Scott

March 28, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Whiley - I have a very good friend who describes herself as a feminist. She has talked to me at length about her mindset on this and her perspectives. I have no argument with her that fair is fair and there is no reason for women to have the same rights as men, opportunities, etc.

The part that kills me with it (and I am not making a blanket statemnt on feminism, simply on the perspective I have told you about from her) is that too often she seems to want to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to have all the opportuinities and rights etc, while still reverting to “traditional” roles when it benefits her. That seems sort of like a double standard to me. I agree completely that there should be one standard, based on merit and nothing else. It gets hard for me to defend her about feminism when she bounces back and forth like that. You can either have fair and equal or preferential treatment, but not both (regardless of sex)

I guess I see it the same way I see affirmative action…your race or sex should not be part of the equation. Your ability to do the job at a level that helps your company, firm, institution, whatever is what should be taken into account. Personally, while I realize that jobs won’t work this way (interviews, etc.) I think you should have to apply to UGA using your SSN and your GPA/SATs. Academic prowess only

By Gina

March 28, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I am a Minority female. My Mother, Grandmothers, Great-grandmothers didn’t have the “option” to stay at home with the children. They worked! And on top of that, they have degrees. With the obstacles they had to endure, that in itself was an accomplishment. They felt as a member of the family, they were also responsible for the financial well-being of the family. Plus, they knew as a member of a “Black” family, we were playing “catch-up”. They didn’t waste their time whining and waiting for a handout, they spent their time working hard.

I believe in equal pay for equal work. I embrace the parts of feminism that empowers women and supports them, but I abhor the parts that blame men for everything. We are going overboard with making men the scapegoat for every divorce and solely supporting the children that result from a marriage or tryst.

There are feminist lawmakers now who feel they know what is better for women, especially poor, minority women. Welfare and entitlements are part of the reason for the downfall of the current Black families. The same women I see at the Capitol lobbying for so-called “equal rights” for women, I don’t see them in the trenches where I volunteer.

By Lyrazel

March 28, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

I strongly disagree. That male dominated world is infiltrated with women like me who have worked hard to succeed. Few started wealthy, most of us made what we are on our abilities and dedication.

Why is it business expected to cater to an individual for their reproductive decisions? That couples struggle with bills to raise a family is part of the choice. Why should business reward women with accolades and promotions if they wont do the time at the desk? Why special favors…isnt that sexism? Liberation is deciding between you or your husband/partners salary options to rely upon when trying to raise a stayed-at-home parented kid. Many men are staying home because the wife is more hireable/reliable/employable or they love being in the role of nurturer. Its now an option for them; liberation at its best!

Is it businesses fault there are 2000 ready-to-hire-and-work candidates applying for the one opinion columnist position? Newspapers/businesses will hire the one who will put in longer hours for projects to get work complete by deadline. Is it sexism if a woman goes down the mommy path and is replaced by someone that dedicates 2/3 of a day to work? So why do women returning to the job market after 5-8 years expect business to hire them at salary plus flex time? Flex time is not a right, its a luxury. When you quit a job; you left, and that shows future employers your other priorities take presidence. This is why so many women are now in underpaid Temp jobs…they made a choice! This isnt 1940/50/60/70/80/90 its 2005 and every adult going into the workforce has a parent who worked or bailed out and raised a family.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

Scott,

Yes, many women do bounce back and forth between traditional roles and back whenever it benefits them. If you want to talk about discrimination and overcoming it, I have many stories for you.

Some of the same women who spout equal rights and make salaries comparable to their husbands are the same ones who still feel a man should take care of them financially.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel,

I agree totally with you. I am in the Engineering field and there are women who have chosen to work part-time. They haven’t progressed in their careers because of “their” choice.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

The only stay at home mother in our families were our grandmothers. Our mothers had a CHOICE in the matter, my grandmother didn’t.

As far as I’m concerned business’s DON’T cater to women at all because of reproductive decisions.

I don’t see feminists blaming men for everything. Just pointing out the obvious. What specifically are they blaming them for? War? sexual abuse? domestic violence? The reason it’s not safe to keep your doors unlocked?

By Scott

March 28, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

Gina - I’m sure you have stories re: disrmination and overcoming it. I find them inspiring, and were this the forum for it, I would love to hear them.

One example came to mind from recent pop culture. Being a staunch feminist, Whiley, I would have to think this drove you nuts. Do y’all remember the first season of the TV show “The Apprentice”? They had the team split into men and women and told them to sell lemonade. The women, rather than using their (one would think) myriad marketing skills, they resortede to the lowest common denominator by selling thei sexuality. By turning theirs into the “Hooters” version of lemonade stands, they made more money. not exactly the best way to be taken seriously as equals, since the guys did not resort to that (From then on they mixed the teams I believe)

Feminists everywhere should have been losiing their minds on that one

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Whiley, you’re grandmother didn’t have a choice. My grandmothers didn’t have a choice not to work (violin strumming).

I separate feminists. They are feminists who promote responsibility and true equality. Then, there are the “radical feminists” who believe everything wrong in a woman’s life is because of a man.

You are stating women aren’t devious? Are you stating they don’t abuse and aren’t violent? One of the most violent and abusive tools a woman can use, they use to victimize and to annihilate…a lie.

By Archie

March 28, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Gina you make me feel good because you make the points I was trying to make when you say you abhor the parts of feminism that blame men for everything. I threw a hint about african-american women when I mentioned Ms Tucker and Tonyaa Weathersbee and how strong they are. Gina, at least you talk about somethings in support of men. I can go to the san francisco newspaper and read the sports opinion of Ann Killion or Gwen Knapp or I can click on BAW and read the opinion of Deborah Mathis. My point is you can find women doing their thing journalistically if you want to. Dianne does not offer any numbers so its hard to really know how to comment. Gina I hope you keep writing and enlightening us men and evidently the feminist folk that need enlightening.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

Gina is a man posing as a woman.

I never watched the apprentice because Donald Trump is disgusting. lol

I would really like to know how many of those female engineers really chose to work part time. They probably do 90% of the childraising & housework. Darn right it’s almost impossible to have both if that’s the case. Doing the dishes, washing clothes, cleaning the house, grocery shopping, preparing meals, taking care of homework, baths, after school activities OCCASIONALLY does not count as being an equal partner in parenthood. How many men are forced to cut back to part time because they just don’t have the time to get everything done at home & with the kids working full time? (that are married) How many dads are forced to get off work at 3pm because they have to pick up the kids from school & get homework started? (MARRIED women have to make that choice all the time). I’m not male bashing, just discussing here.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Scott, I remember that episode of The Apprentice. Yes, the radical feminists should’ve been up in arms over it. But, of course, they weren’t because it didn’t give them any visibility or promote their agenda.

Some of the feminists (radical) just feel women like me are brainwashed. I guess because I take responsibility for my own actions and work to support myself, I am not a supporter of women.

By Scott

March 28, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Whiley - I would have to say more and more men are taking their share of the load in household duties. For example, my wife is a much better cook, except when it comes to the grill (insert Tim the toolman Taylor grunt here) so she does the cooking. I do the cleaning and outside work, she does the laundry most of the time. We don’t have kids yet but division of work in that respect has been discussed and while we haven’t yet figured out completely how this will work out, we at least agree it will be equitable.

A good friend of mine at work leaves whenever neccesary to do things with his kids or just the day to day things when his wife’s work schedule won’t allow that and vice versa. Actually, though there are not very many women in this office, most of the guys who have children do the same thing. It’s unusual if they don’t and understood that family is family and you do what you need to do. I can’t say I have ever heard a comment that it was “woman’s work”.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I am definitely “all woman” and I am laughing so hard because you feel a woman who has a thought independent from “feminists” who knows what is best for women must not be a woman.

Yes, there are women engineers here who choose to work part-time. In fact, some of their husbands work for the company also. I have many male co-workers who take their children to school and pick them up. There are a few who have children in schools near work and they go to eat lunch with them.

By the way, many of the part-time moms here have hired help to assist with the housecleaning, etc.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

Archie,

Whiley thinks I can’t disagree with aspects of feminism and still be a woman. There are some who may never be enlightened.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Gina, feminism is the reason women ARE ABLE to support themselves. Without any choices or rights, our ONLY option was marriage & motherhood.

I don’t understand your hostility. That’s why some would think you were brainwashed. Or that you are a man posing as a woman.

By Scott

March 28, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

My point with the “Apprentice” example (along with adding a little levity to this) is that feminists should have been screaming at these women saying “WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING???!! But they didn’t. At least they should have said “this is not behavior we want to encourage”

By Archie

March 28, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Whiley just doesn’t want to give men any equal credit. She is content to moan and insult by calling Gina a man. Gina plainly stated that she supports feminism just not the radical feminism. I do dishes,etc. regularly, not occassionly so I have a problem with the implication as far as housework goes. My spouse does more of homework but let’s say this, extracurricular activities are a choice and not a necessity. I mean being on the soccer team,debate team, and dance team at the same time isn’t necessary to do well but it’s a choice that many women make for their children then complain about the time it takes for involvement. We already have female governors because people know women can get the job done and although this male-dominated society has a lot of problems restating the obvious doesn’t solve them. Women like Lyrazel and Gina could state some strong opinions and men would respect them even if they didn’t like them because you know that they don’t want everything their way. Dianne mentions 3 newspapers but I can name 6 where I go regularly to read the opinions of feminist and non-feminist writers. Go Gina.

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 02:58 PM | Link to this

Feminist did get upset over the Apprentice show. You didn’t know about it because there aren’t enough women columnist.

lol !

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

Scott sounds like you are surrounded by good people ! I wish things were like that when I was younger.

And please show me how to work a grill.

By Sandy

March 28, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Leveling the playing ground is not the same as as asking for special priveleges. Asking to be paid a living wage with decent benefits is a fair expecation. Having the government play a (positive) role in creating good and affordable daycare is not out of the realm of possiblity.

Lots of college educated woman leave college with high expecations of what they can achieve in their chosen careers, but many of those expectations are whittled away by the reality of what it means to be a working mother. First of all, thank goodness we still have the choice (for the most part) of whether to become a parent or not, although if the religious right had their way, we might not.

Good child care, assuming it is available, is very expensive, and only gets more expensive. By the time my daughter started kindergarten, I had paid out more than $20,000 in daycare costs. Having another child while she needed full-time daycare was impossible due to the expense. In fact, my mother in-law used to sympathetically remark that it was a shame that I didn’t have a wife to help me out at home as she watched me struggle with the expense of daycare, the fatigue and frustration of childrearing after working all day, and eventual illness that took me out of the full-time work force, partially caused by the stress. This occurred in the context of being married to a wonderful husband and devoted father. Sadly, our cooperatative marriage and two jobs were not enough to keep us in our own house in a decent neighborhood where we could safely send our daughter to school.

Since life is unpredictable, women who become separated or divorced often face a financial loss, as do their children. If they continue to work full time, full-time daycare is a must. Not all women have the luck to have family members who can watch their children for them. The cost of child care becomes so prohibitive for some families, that women opt to work parttime to offset the expense. Once that decision is made, she is “on the mommy track” and is unlikely to get meaningful job advancement unless she goes back to work full-time, if she can find and afford the daycare. A woman and her family are often faced with other difficult issues that are beyond their control, such as special needs children, or taking care of an elderly parents, stresses which traditionally fall on women. How many men are required to take care of their own elderly parents, let alone their in-laws during traditional work hours? How many men would, even if they could, cut back their hours to spend more time at home with a troubled or ill child?

Most women want to do the “right” things for their families and themselves, but the constraints placed on them make it extremely difficult if not impossible in many situations. They are forced to choose between taking care of their loved ones, and doing the things that would earn them workplace respect, promotions, and a decent living. These “choices” involve huge personal sacrifices that men are just not required or expected to make.

Through all of this, our alarmist society throws warnings matching the intensity of Tom Ridge’s color coded terrorist charts about the hazards of neglect at day care centers, hazards of too much TV, poor nutrition, with the religous right weighing in against working mothers who are only doing so for those so-called luxuries (I consider a daily shower a luxury during the 6 days a week that I work…)

Personally, I’m glad for all of you women who are thriving and achieving in your chosen fields. Hard work and sacrifice are not yours, alone, however. It’s not us vs. them; it’s asking what can be done to make this win-win across the board. The bottom line is that it’s not just hurting women, it hurts their families and society at large. Latchkey kids turn into criminals due to lack of supervision, but by golly, lets cut the programs designed to help us raise our kids.

As far as “writing a couple of columns a week,” one would hope that this would involve actual research and data analysis, etc. While I hardly consider my blogs as being column quality, I take time and effort to express my opinions; it’s not as easy as it looks…

By Whiley

March 28, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

OH MY NO, no, no Archie & Gina you misunderstand me completely.
I get frustrated when I hear the words radical feminist. What exactly does that mean & who are these radicals? I’ve never met one. I do not understand women that say they don’t like feminists. Women as a group, have been oppressed and exploited since time began. The poorest people in the world are women. We do not live in an equal world so lets stop pretending that we do. We could continue justifying ourselves forever, but we have to stop it; because we have nothing to be sorry about.

We are darn lucky to be born in the US. But remember it has ONLY been in VERY RECENT history we are what we are today. Who do you think got things that way? And that’s the thanks you give?

You’d NEVER hear an African American accuse Martin Luther King of being over the top radical “going too far”

By Archie

March 28, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

Whiley some blacks did accuse King of going too far. Some blacks do blame others for things that they can control. I mentioned two female african-american columnists for many reasons. One, they are double minorities and they have probably seen horrible male behavior but their columns focus on issues that are relevant across the board and they don’t dish out slights to men in each column. Cynthia Tucker was critical of Bishop Eddie Long but she’s also been critical of the King family. The point is these sisters have every reason to be radical but they are not. Gina and I have already stated what we mean when we say radical,Whiley, you just don’t want to accept it. As Sandy says we need a win-win situation not a them vs. us but that’s what radical feminism creates. Women voted for Bush in strong numbers inspite of NOW. That is a fact so maybe the message of equality and understanding needs to be done without the radical side. I can say the same thing for the civil rights movement in that you can’t blame “the man” for everything. We don’t have to buy records that call women ho’s and whatnot but then the fact that I may not clap to all of rap means little when the women themselves want that type of music. The point is accept responsibility and criticism. Getting criticized is a part of being equal, not just getting better benefits. Sometimes women are wrong just as blacks are wrong,just as men are wrong. If I knew why men were violent at times I would definitely write a book to solve the problem but the best I can do is vote for someone that’s for equality in childcare, and healthcare, his name ain’t Bush.

By Lyrazel

March 28, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Scott, gotta laugh, dude! Excuse me…when do business women behave ANYTHING LIKE women on The Apprentice? What a sleezy bunch of tramps to ever grace a boardroom set. Women who dress like prostitutes seldom make it past the receptionist, certainly their behavior is nothing I would hire—even the men…guys, never call somebody a Fluffer on National TV and expect a job afterward. When a woman pulls her skirt down to sell lemonade in downtown Manhattan dont the cops crawl outa the woodwork? Cops would drop their Krispy Kreemes in GA….I guarantee!

*Its TV. * Geeeze….you expect femminists to rally because of a TV show? We true femminists are trying to get basic daycare for women so they can keep a job, trying to get more than 74 cents on every dollar wage, we are shouting our rights to our own reproductive organs is up for debate…we are trying to get fear out of birth control….THATS WHY WE AINT RALLYING up the troops because of what was on The Apprentice…

By Scott

March 28, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel - I’m glad you laughed..that was the point, to add some levity to a serious debate (so settle down) and exactly what do the cops have to do with this?

My point is that it’s a negative portrayal of women in the workplace when they are fighting to be accepted and paid what they are worth and to have the benefits they deserve. Are you serious that regardless of which show it is on that a negative portrayal doesn’t have an impact? Yes, it’s just TV, but how many times have networks taken heat for stereotypical portrayals of differnt races/genders/orientations/religions? As well they should, since they are demeaning and stereotyping.

By Scott

March 28, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Sandy - Do you really think the government will have a positive role in creating good, affordable childcare? I mean, they do such a great job with the schools now…

I know plenty of women who make sacrifices for their family and give up plenty for the sake of their families. I also know plenty of men who do the same. Including men who have stayed at home or tele-commuted to take care of elderly parents and sick kids. Heck, I’ve even done it when I was engaged to a woman (though the relationship dissolved later for other reasons) whose son had leukemia (not my child) and got reprimanded at work for it. Not exactly career enhancing. Men are taking more of the work load at home, so get off the martyrdom high horse for a sec, please.

Maybe its just that I am surrounded by good people and good examples (I definitely am) as Whiley said, but I was raised that men take care of their families regardless of what that entails - end of story (and with as little government assistance/interference as humanly possible)

By Crystal

March 28, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

“Add some levity” to THIS blog? Surely you jest.

By Gina

March 28, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I am far from brainwashed. There comes a time when one has to take responsibility for their decisions because sometimes outside forces are not responsible.

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 07:13 AM | Link to this

Levity…I can do levity…with candidates for employment like that its small wonder Trump is in bankrupcy…

By Randy

March 29, 2005 07:14 AM | Link to this

Is there anybody that didn’t go to church sunday? My church’s attendance was up 1300-1500 people. It’s great that people are finally getting over the me generation and looking for a relationship with Jesus. Super.

By AllAboutME

March 29, 2005 07:20 AM | Link to this

…leave it to two female opinion schlock journalists to decry a need for more of their ilk…does the world really need more opinion colomnists?…sex or no sex…we got too many now! NO!

By Brian Curtis

March 29, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this

Ahhh, Randy. Good of you to drop in with another of your irrelevant “go, Jesus” cheers having nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Have you ever written a complete sentence that didn’t have God or Jesus in it? It must’ve made math homework tough in school: “2 x 5 = whatever God wills it to be; 14 / 2 = praise Jesus!”

Obviously, I did not go to church Sunday, since I’m a non-Christian. What of it? That’s what makes America great, after all.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

“There comes a time when one has to take responsibility for their decisions because sometimes outside forces are not responsible.”

WHAT in the world has that got to do with feminism??? Feminist blame men for everything? That is a lie. But feminists aren’t afraid to speak out how men NEGATIVELY affect our lives & what we need to do about it.

I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with a men’s right group preaching the need for men to use their own birth control because there are women out there that aren’t responsible.

Same thing.

BTW, did anyone catch that story this morning on the pharmacist refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills? The woman had to drive 30 MILES out her way to another drug store. That guy should have been fired on the spot. THAT’S some of the garbage feminist are busy dealing with.

By Archie

March 29, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this

I mean no harm Whiley but it’s old news about pharmacist that won’t dispense birth control pills. That story made national news months ago and it has more to do with religion than gender. In my opinion the guy is a nut but I would imagine there are plenty of women that go to his church that feel just like he does so it has nothing to do with gender. Obviously only women can give birth but that guy probably won’t distribute a male contraceptive either. I very much support women doing something about the extremes in some religions. I don’t think some practices benefit anyone but again if you view all men as the enemy you don’t gain allies where they would be available. This newspaper has published stories of women allowing things to be done to their daughters with the mother’s approval. A local minister was jailed for child abuse in this town a few months ago and this was a prominent story but as Gina suggests the mom should take responsibility for her part in the madness.

By Randy

March 29, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

Brian, So you were the ONE who didn’t go to church. Shame on you.

By Randy

March 29, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

Brian, It’s not 14/2= praise Jesus, it’s 14/3=praise Jesus. Keep up.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

Archie,

I don’t think anyone thinks all men are enemies. Even the crazy feminists people love to complain about (I’ve never seen one have you?)lol

Apparently the pharmacist situation is still going on, there was a new story this morning of women being turned away. That’s just insane to me.

By Jack

March 29, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

Who ever picked the topic for this week needs to take a long vacation. See ya next week…maybe.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 09:44 AM | Link to this

What I have noticed growing up: All the people I know are in positions that are directly related to the choices they made - male or female - black or white.

If the opprotunities did not exist where they were, they moved. Some would argue that they should not have to; agreed. But look at it further and you will see that if all the motivated people keep moving to places that allow productive movement; the places that are lacking will wane - and will have to catch up. Or they will dissolve, and then we can move in and reconstruct.

Granted, some of those paths could be made easier; and should be - yet with awareness that some paths are inherently difficult.

Also what I know: All guys (fair to generalize here?) are brought up with the absolute knowledge that they, to be successful, must be able to support a family unit. And if they cannot, it is a direct relationship to their ability to father/parent.

Now although this may not seem “fair” to me from a guys point, it is my reality given the time/world I live in. I shall take responsibility for reaching the goals I have set for myself.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 09:47 AM | Link to this

I don’t think anyone thinks all men are enemies.

Apparently the pharmacist situation is still going on, there was a new story this morning of women being turned away. That’s just insane to me.

If a mother KNOWINGLY puts their child in danger, of course she is held repsonsible for endangering a child. But not the actual abuse. Sounds like just a new way of blaming women for everything wrong with society today - if teenagers are running riot, blame the mother, if a child is sexually abused by a babysitter - blame the mother for leaving them with the abuser, if a woman gets a job over a man - blame the women’s movement, if a man loses his job for pinching the female receptionist on the arse -blame the women’s movement, falling fertility rates - blame the women’s movement etc.. etc… etc…

By Royal Chic

March 29, 2005 10:29 AM | Link to this

Randy, actually the increase in numbers of church attendance is due to the brain washing and money generating holidays that makes hyprocrites and non-Christians believe that this is the one day out of the entire year that they should step foot in church???? If these souls that want to be saved truly had a desire to embrace their spiritual path and give praise to our Creator it wouldn’t happen on a day so convenient as Easter Sunday…..go figure!!!????

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

All the people I look at got where they are from choices made - black, white, male, or female.

At this point, seeing as the paths are not blocked, I feel it is about getting in there and changing the culture.

Heck, take porn for example (this should turn heads): As more women got into the business, they changed the trend to include more of what girls want to see and the industry is quite a different thing than it was in the seventies. I see this primarily because women got in there and changed things.

And to the old arguement about a female being b*tchy vs assertive, etc. There is a difference, and this also applies to guys; they just cannot be called the same name because of symantics.

Do any females really understand that guys are brought up knowing that they must be able to provide for a family unit? This is not a choice we have the comfort of making (Hear that? No Choice.). And if you try the arguement that guys can now work/stay at home, the logistics break bc it is the wife who gets preg, delivers, and needs the time off.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

There is an easy cure for that. Don’t have kids.

I was always told that if you have children, expect to do all the work, AND expect to hold down a full time job. How’s that for thrilling choices?

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Life is never fair. Ive made choices that were different than my peers/family/friends. How about living through 40++ years of Gee, when are you going to have a family? but no credit for my work and hours keeping a business solvent 30 years?

My question about christian easter is: why eat ham in honor of a dead jewish man?

I have so many questions…so few answers…Whiley, someone ought to paper that mans trees with condoms….

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

I have personally had men tell me they are resentful that their wives stopped bringing in a paycheck & are at home with the kids. Resentful? Working a 24 hour, 7 days a week job without pay? I was told to get a job working from home. Like I didn’t have enough to do on very little sleep & no time to even take a shower. How would those husbands enjoy taking a newborn to their office everyday & try to get anything done with a crying baby that needs tending to.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

I am sorry that life is hard Whiley - I will talk to management.

By Royal Chic

March 29, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

AngryGrlsAreFunny, you make a valid point….anything that requires revolution has to be done from within….I believe that women have a long path to travel to be treated as equals in society as well as other minorities, but we shouldn’t use our limitations and boundaries as an excuse to point the finger at society, men, and culture…we have to have the same spirit of many women innovators that fought for religious rights, social rights, civil rights…etc….sometimes anger moves the powers that be to action, but persitence, consistency, and passion overpowers any amount of bitterness…..our great Constitution gives us the natural, domestic right to be treated as equals…we simply need strong, powerful, aggressive, intelligent women to strive for our cause……if we are not willing to fight who will???

BTW, considering this is Women’s History month I think the topic is appropriate, but the arguments of both Diane and Shaunti are a little undeveloped…..

By Janet

March 29, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

AngryGrls, come on… reality check! Guys are not brought up knowing they must be able to provide for the family unit! Look around you, how many women are left alone to provide for themselves and their children because men are NOT providing for the family unit. Many females are being brought up to KNOW they can not count on a man to provide for them, so many take responsiblity for their own lives, and the lives of the children they have. The majority of single parent homes have the mother being the responsible one. There are men that take this responsiblity, but there are far more DEAD BEAT DADS than their are DEAD BEAT MOMS. Men do make choices… and many do not take responsiblity for their children. (I do acknowledge there are some really great single fathers out there, but a disporportionate amount)

By lozen

March 29, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

I just watched Ken Burns’ documentary about Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Just out of curiosity, how many people debating here today know who these people were? (Please don’t google it first)

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

lol ! Thank you AngryGrlsAreFunny.

I was just born in the wrong decade.

By Royal Chic

March 29, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Lozen, the names sound familiar from U.S. History, but I can’t remember their significance…….lol

By lozen

March 29, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

Is Crystal a masochist or what? If she hates this discussion so much, finds it so boring, and has nothing but negative feelings about it, why doesn’t she just go away?

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Women have their own anti-successful woman sexism they play against women who dont choose the family path. Its blatent, it is cruel because it denies someone her success by saying a woman is only wholy successful after birthing something…this creed of motherdom has not eclipsed in the years..only grown more resentful of other womens success….oooo I wont make friends with that!

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

I know! I know! Ken Burns is one of those multi media producers responsible for a new photoshop filter that turns photos sienna. Susan B. was on a defunt dollar coin now replaced with Sacajawea (sp?) and she and Liz C. Santon are in a sculpture that makes them look like they are all stuck in a bathtub…and what do I win?

By Janet

March 29, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

I seem to remember that Elizabeth wasn’t fond of the word “obey” and refused to say it.

By Archie

March 29, 2005 11:20 AM | Link to this

Let me give you some credit Lyrazel. You have done good. Marriage is tough so if you’re happy do your thing. Men do lose sleep being involved in a relationship. I am a witness to that. I can truly understand the attitude of both men and women when it comes to relationships. I am not surprised Janet jumped on Angry’s comments,in fact I was surprised to read those comments from Angry. Some people have it good in terms of spousal cooperation but they are so caught in finding something to b*** about they just can’t see it. Many women create the situation that they complain about as do many men. It goes on and on.

By Janet

March 29, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

AngryGrls, in fairness, many men are brought up being taught that they should be responsible for their families. But everyone has a choice of what they do with what they are taught. Many people ignore what they were taught and do their own thing. This can be a good thing and a bad. Many times what we are taught is outdated and oppressive, and learning to stand up for ones self and take responsiblity for your own life is good. Then there are the ones that are taught to be responsible… but choose ignore that responsibility. It is all about the choices we make.

By Michael D

March 29, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Our ladies have new pictures I see!! Only one thing to say…

HELLOOOOOOOO DIANE!!!

By lozen

March 29, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

A girl should not expect special privileges because of her sex but neither should she adjust to prejudice and discrimination. — Betty Friedan

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

Janet, I agree completely.

I did not mean to cloud the issue with my point about guys being brought up with societies label of breadwinner. I only wanted to point out that there are many out-dated ideas that are being taught - to everyone.

I strongly believe that much of the solution is that we need to teach children (drastically with girls) that they are responsible for themselves (bodies/emotions/sexuality). Unfortunately we as adults not only omit this type of teaching, but it is a normal trend to teach children that they are the parents property.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Can you imagine a world without men?  No crime and lots of happy, fat women. - Unknown

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I think I could be happy with that; no exitsance, no pain.

But it raises the question: When a girls yells “No Fair” and there is not a man to hear it; will anyone care? Surely not the females, for they are too busy scratching the girls eyes out.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

We’ll have nothing to complain about. Women work well in a group to get things done & fairly (for the most part). They’ll be no more looking over our shoulders for serial killers or rapists, our children can play without fear.

Although, it would get pretty lonely without fine lookin men around.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Whiley, You really believe women work well in a group? Cannot continue with that much denile.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Yes I do.

I am talking about the daily work to keep a house, cook, wash clothes, dishes, etc
A good example is any social occasion. The men HAVE ALWAYS disappeared before & after dinner.

Am I right or am I right ! lol !

By Scott

March 29, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

“In fairness..” “to be fair” “fair is fair”…what a load of garbage….all I have heard is how men are slime, unable to keep it in their pants, irresposible, dead beats, chauvanistic, leches. If those are the kind of men you are dealing with, ladies, maybe you are getting what you pay for, in a manner of speaking…I don’t act like that, think like that or expect that. Nor do I associate with any men that do. I was raised to respect women and that marriage is a partnership in all things. Responsibility is the bottom line.

If the pharamcist is discriminatory then make it publicly known. when they start losing money from their prescriptions, etc, he’ll be gone

By Michael

March 29, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

I have yet to read a relevant, constructive comment of any kind from Crystal. I wonder what kind of column she could possibly write. (The “I’m above it all with my levity” approach only goes so far. That’s an ad hominem, not of the fallacious variety though.)

Most conservatives seem have a theological like belief in the “liberal media” thesis. (Most would be horrified to read or hear the media in any other Western industrialized country.) The main “arguments” are repetition of the claim and the superficial sociological references of the sort invoked by Ms. Feldhan, and of course, if you disagree, personal attack. I suppose it is just “self-evident” (but it isn’t.)

Now let’s see how many respond with some evidence and how many just resort to abuse.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton worked together for 51 years for the rights of women. They were the inspiration behind the women’s suffrage movement. When their work began women in the USA could not vote, could not attend college, did not have the right to speak in public, could not own property, were not entitled to their children when there was divorce – women had no legal rights. These two women (along with hundreds of others) were as important to women and our rights as any general and army has been to the country. Most people don’t know who they are. It is a real shame. The right to vote, get an education, own property, etc. were not given to women; they had to fight for those rights. There were many women who worked and marched and went to jail for the things we take for granted today. Martin Luther King, Jr. gets respect and a day of remembrance from the people he worked for! Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton should at the very least have that. And yes, those women worked as a group to make a better world for all of us. Angry, you really think men work together well as a group?

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

Scott where do you live & can you introduce us to all the single men you know? Please ! ! ! ! lol

By Scott

March 29, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

Whiley - Marietta…sure thing just gimme the specs/age range you prefer

By Scott

March 29, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Whiley - Marietta…sure thing, what are your specs/age range of preference?

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

uh, well, a bit older, I’m not as picky as I used to be. Breathing & not an ex-felon is good.

By Crystal

March 29, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

Poor Frozen Lozen, do you not know the meaning of levity? A little lightness and joy? This blog would sink like a rock if thrown in a pond. The heaviness of women’s lib and feminist-take-all has much the same pleasure as a ton of bricks. Men are wonderful. Prime examples are my husband and four sons. I’m sorry if you missed the pleasure of their company—men, that is. I haven’t.

Since these blogs are open to all, I drop in and comment when I fell like it. Women’s rights, you know. My mother and father taught me about independence and I have had it ever since.

By Scott

March 29, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

Whiley - heheheh darlin’ that’s too easy!!

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

No, I do not find that women work well in a group. I can find an single example of anyting you wish people, but the trend of women backstabbing each other and sabatoging each other is pervasive in our society.

No, I do not believe women (generaly - that is how we are speaking right?) take responsibility for their choices. Bluntly, I feel women are still children (men are too, but less so); due to how they are raising each other.

Look at the cosmetic surgery craze. Most girls are going to blame that on guys wanting the perfect girl; bs. Girls are in competition with each other - have always been.

Do not let this confuse you in thinking that I do not believe that women are not capable of adulthood - I have a girlfriend who is incredible, but because she decided to take responsibility for her life. What prompted her you may ask? Well, instead of complaining about what she did not like, she changed it.

Sorry, but this is too remedial for me today.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

Who & where are all these dead beat women that don’t take responsibility for themselves? Who are these women that can’t work well in a group because they are back stabbing & too busy getting plastic surgery? Are we REACHING a little bit there? I’d like to be able to afford plastic surgery. What’s wrong with looking better?

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

This argument: men-be-gone was one of the primary reasons thousands of women abandoned NOW and other organizations designed to promote womens causes.

I do have a big question for you Whiley… Ok. I am in the process of hiring someone. They will be responsible for operating a software program—that will take 6 months to learn, require travel to learn it, and future travel to learn upgrades, etc. The job I am offering is 60 hrs/week plus manditory overtime due to client and scheduling. A young man and a young woman both middle twenties applies for this position. I notice both have wedding bands. Both are graduates, both excellent candidates. My question is: is it fair to ask the woman what her plans are in the future as far as having children since if she decides to start a family it would affect her work/availability?

Its a real hard one for me.

By z-man

March 29, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Something to keep an eye on! Three carrier battle groups are converging on the Persian Gulf. The aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson has departed Singapore and is currently crossing the Indian Ocean, en route to the Middle East. The aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt is also on the move, crossing the Atlantic Ocean, reportedly headed toward the Mediterranean. Reports are also circulating that the U.S. Navy has dispatched ships containing nuclear armaments to reinforce the battle groups. This will be the first time since February 2004 that the U.S. has had three major carrier groups stationed on or around the Middle East.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel, not only would it be irrelevant and unfair to ask the woman what her future plans are as far as having children, it would be illegal and would open your business to the possibility of a discrimination suit! Could you ask the man if he’s eliminated fat from his diet and exercises on a regular basis (heart attacks, you know)? I don’t think that’s illegal yet.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

I don’t think it’s an unfair question at all for both the male & female applicants. After all, my best friends husband took off when she was pregnant & worked cash under the table jobs for years after that. Your male applicant may head for the hills.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

And it’s NEVER been men-be-gone ever with feminist groups. It has always been DANGER TO WOMEN men-be-gone.

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

Oh, and to show Im not a complete cad, the software training session is in Oahu…expenses paid by company and work is normally 160 hours/month…

z-man? In a country whos government has told all citizens plastic sheeting and duct tape is our emergency civil defense…and Fearless Leader has said, let us err on the side of life, why worry? Go out and buy something made in China. It will make you feel better, less stressed.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

Angry, No, I do not find that men work well in a group. The trend of men competing with each other and sabatoging each other is pervasive in our society. No, I do not believe men (generaly - that is how we are speaking right?) take responsibility for their choices. Bluntly, I feel men are still children (women are too, but less so); due to how they are raising each other. Look at the viagra (and similar medications)craze. Most boys are going to blame that on girls wanting the perfect-well - you know; bs. Boys are in competition with each other - have always been. Do not let this confuse you in thinking that I do not believe that men are not capable of adulthood - I have a male friend who is incredible, but because he decided to take responsibility for his life. What prompted him you may ask? Well, instead of complaining about what he did not like, he changed it.

Angry, you are such a woman basher!

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

Not sure what your point is, or if your playing.

I agree that the inverse is true in most cases; but men are not complaining about their findings of unfairness.

We either tend to be unhealthly complacent, or get in there and change it. Idle and complaining is not acceptable; and other guys will remind you of that.

By z-man

March 29, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

lyrazel, if you want to be less stressed while looking down the barrel of a gun. YOU GO BUY SOMETHING FROM CHINA! I on the other hand watch these events unfold in great apprehension.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

“men are not complaining about their findings of unfairness. “

Maybe that’s because they’ve been in charge & have made all the rules since day one. Women living under patriarchy share experiences that men cannot realistically lay claim to. Men have freedom women will never have. Freedom from sexual assault the biggest one. You have no idea how it affects our daily lives. Can’t stay out late, don’t walk alone after dark, don’t leave your doors & windows unlocked, careful who you date, don’t get caught alone on an elevator etc. So pardon me if more & more women are finally vocalizing that we are extremely angry & fed up with the world.

Maybe being seen as inferior for 99.9% of your gender’s existence gives women the right to hold a grudge. Doesn’t mean we hate you, we just need to change some things.

By Lyrazel

March 29, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Lozen, I have been asked such questions prior to employment. Frankly its none of their GD business—but I do not think it is against the law. Both prospects could bail after considerable expense. I just want to establish sometimes the reason women do not advance at work is because of their decision to begin a family. Women work well together and male female groups are awe inspiring. Male male groups—well cant say—have never been in one but I heard they sit around and talk about women. I am blessed with a husband who cooks cleans and I work. Its nice being able to live in a century where traditional roles can be exchanged. Enjoy.

By Tim

March 29, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

all I have to say is that I am glad I am gay! I don’t have to deal with all these women

just kidding!!! ROCK ON feminisists ROCK ON!! :) (and I will stand there right with ya)

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Like others have said for years: I missed that meeting to decide exactly how men were going to dominate women. Paranoid statements will lessen your cause.

Know anything about nudibrachs? Hermephridites that fight with their two p*** (yes ywo, and like swords), and the first to get a strike, impregnates the other. The loser becomes the female and the winner the male. This is currently where we belief of the trend of huter/gatherer and homemaker/nurturure started. If you are going to go back to oppression, it begins here.

I believe that it is a small percent of a percent of guys who perform those acts; don’t you? Therefore to look at men in general is your first mistake - you are making enemies out of potential alliances. Like with me for example. (I participate in “Take back the night” each year here in Athens - it promotes saftey for women at night. If the people who greated me years ago at their second meeting acted like you do; I would have spent my time other places)

You see, we men COULD be a resource; but since MEN are the problem, in your eyes, you end up alienating us. But the problem you face is not attached to only men, so now what? Alienate women to? Yes that has happend (NOW).

So if you learned how to think criticaly, you would not wave your blame-gun so wildly; and instead think: What is it that I want, and how do I get it while maintaining integrity.

You may begin to notice that many people (guys included here) are behind you 100%.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

Angry, you’re not sure what my point is? I took what you wrote about women and turned it around. I was pretty sure what your point was! You’re a man so how would you know if women work well in a group? How many groups of all women have you been in? You are right, some women do put down and sabotage other women; they are not feminists! Women are brainwashed in a patriarchal society just as men are. But not allwomen take part in that. Some women help other women -that’s what feminism was about, not hating men. Some women are irresponsible; some men are irresponsible. Some women are childish; some men are childish. You make these general statements about “most women” (like you know most women!) BUT your girlfriend is the exceptional woman. She’s not like those other immature, sabotaging, irresponsible women! Your comments prove Whiley’s point.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

lozen, So it is equal and it all comes down to the individual.

Thank you for proving my point.

By Janet

March 29, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Scott,

“In fairness…” I wasn’t referring to the men that do take responsibility. My statement was meant to emphasize that while some people (men and women) are taught a set of values, that not all are, and even those that are taught those values do not always use them. And that everyone has choices (refer to AngeryGrls statement at 10:36 today, when he stated men have no choice and have to provide) I did not intend to bash all men, I was speaking about a specific group of people (single parent families) and the disparages between the male female roles of that group. As for the group of men I ‘deal’ with, they are great guys. My husband and 3 sons have been taught to respect women and know that women (in general) are very capable and equal, not better or worse, and are not to be treated as objects, but valued.

You do acknowledge that there are both men and women that do not accept responsibility for their actions, but they all have choices, don’t you?

By Crystal

March 29, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

Well, Michael’s back. School must be out. How’s Logic going? Ad hominem to ad nauseaum? Good old GSU, still using student assistants to teach.

Now, back on topic. Maybe women columnists should remember some lines from James Fenton’s poem “Nothing”. It goes like this: “Eloquence is a lie. The truth is trite. Nothing I say will make you love me more”.

Or maybe he was talking about bloggers.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

Lets start with this, how many women are murdered by their boyfriend/spouse per year? How many pregnant women are murdered each year by the men who claim to love them?

How many men are murdered by their wives/girlfriends?

How many women are sex offenders and are a danger to society? How many men are sex offenders are and are a danger to society?

There are so MANY instances how a male dominated society hurts women it’s too much to type here. Mostly it insults women’s intelligence to be forced to list ONCE AGAIN the evils that affect us. (only to have eyes rolled at us AGAIN) The fact is WE CAN’T COUNT on men to help us. We’ve been dealing with how to avoid violence for centuries. Instead of forwarding emails telling women how not to get murdered or raped, how about giving advice for men now to stop other men from making our lives so miserable? Those are the guys that would benefit us the most. Where have you been? You will be the true heros.

By Brian Curtis

March 29, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Just a reminder when you’re discussing how “men have made the rules and had the advantages” throughout history… that’s an overwhelmingly tiny fraction of men who’ve actually enjoyed that power. Most of the guys you meet every day would honestly ask, “WHAT privilege? I don’t have any power!”

Just like when some people say, “Men start wars, so men should fight them.” Remember: “Rich men start wars… it’s poor men who fight and die in them.”

Not quite the same group of guys.

By Sandy

March 29, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Sorry so late in posting. This feminist was up early learning witchcraft and becoming a lesbian (levity). Oh, and taking my dad to the doctor.

So, to recap:

Scott, so what martyr name should I go with? Sandy the Unwashed, or Sandy the Unclean? Because my point was that we can create a better society for families, which includes all combinations of men, women and children. You must indeed be surrounded by remarkable people, because the majority of men in the country do not behave in the way you described, assuming they’re around. Remember though, you don’t get to pick your relatives (or neighbors) necessarily.

Are you a working parent? If not, don’t confuse your observations with my reality. Not looking for martyrdom, just an even shake. And believe me, I know my situation could be worse; I could still be in Atlanta…

I happen to have married the kind of guy you claim to be, hardworking, responsible, etc. People have often commented on my husband’s interaction with our kids, telling me how “lucky” I am to have married him, as though he is somehow going above and beyond his male duties by taking care of the laundry and children, etc. I say luck has nothing to do with it. We could not survive without this negotiation of mutual cooperation. (I also painted the exterior of our former house single-handedly and did many of the repairs by myself just before it sold,while working full-time, just so no one thinks I sit around eating bon bons watching soaps all day.)

It’s been a happy marriage for 20+ years, but economically we’re not surviving. It’s a huge struggle just to keep our kids in a good school district, at a huge social and economic cost. I’m more than a little saddle sore from this martyrdom high horse you have described. If it’s happening to two professional, college-educated, responsible, hardworking, moral, and reasonably healthy people like us, imagine how hard it is for folks who have not had our advantages, either through bad choices or no choices… Our crime is being middle class caught in a culture war, which many think is between the liberals and conservatives only, but it’s the rich upper class pulling out every safety net set ever put forth by administrations much smarter than our current one.

Regarding the pharmacist who refuses to sell birth control pills to women: How does he know they’re preventing pregnancy? They could be normalizing their reproductive cycles so they can become pregnant some day. Either way, women do not need to justify their medical regimens to anyone. Such pharmacists or other medical personnel are invading their clients’ privacy and preventing legal medical treatment.

And just to add fuel to the fire, do any men (besides gay men) ever have their reproductive/sexual privacy violated in the health care/legal system the way women have? Besides Michael Jackson, I mean?

So this begs the question: Why do I waste time blogging, trying to appeal to the better natures of both sides who strip a topic down to the most common denominator and never explore its political nuances in a rational and informative way? Must be my undying optimistic attitude… Till tomorrow…

By Gina

March 29, 2005 04:12 PM | Link to this

Personally, I think women who grew up playing team sports are less backstabbing and catty. They learn to work as a team and not focus on just themselves.

And Whiley, yes as a woman, I must worry about sexual assault and I do but men shouldn’t hang out late either. There is nothing good that happens hanging out after a certain time.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Angry, “Know anything about nudibrachs? Hermephridites that fight with their two p***…” What are you talking about?

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

Just a very interesting creature that is getting a lot of attention since it is the last hermephridite in our chain. It is what is suspected to first branch into two sexes.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

There is nothing good that happens hanging out after a certain time.

LOL GOOD POINT that is a fact !

“Men start wars, so men should fight them.� Remember: “Rich men start wars… it’s poor men who fight and die in them.�

GOOD POINT TO ! (how about stopping them all together)

By Gina

March 29, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Whiley, women are violent but they are just sneakier than men. Look at the woman in Cobb County who poisoned a husband and a boyfriends.

I really learned how devious women could be when I lived in a college dorm. They are just more conniving.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Brian, You are so right! The laws, the rules, the ubiquitous christian religion with its woman hatred, were all produced by a few powerful men. It is really hard to own up to being privileged and admit that white men enjoy certain privileges under that system that no one else enjoys. Just as hard as it is for white people to admit their privileges in a rascist system.

By whiley

March 29, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Look at the woman in Cobb County who poisoned a husband and a boyfriends.

So one woman cancels out the thousands of violent men. That one woman proves that there isn’t a problem with male violence.

OK. That’s why we need feminism !

By lozen

March 29, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Women are not as violent as men. Look at any set of statistics. One woman killed her husband and boyfriend during a week when probably at least 10 women were killed by husbands and boyfriends. “Conniving” is one thing; violence is another thing.

By Tony

March 29, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

Evidence: A Book by L. Brent Bozell III, “Weapons of Mass Distortion The Coming Meltdown of the Liberal Media”. The book is the result of meticulous research over a period of years. It is impossible for anyone with the logical thinking skills of a hamster to read this richly documented book and still not admit the overbearing liberal bias in the media. As Bozell points out, even if Fox News were biased, in which he does not, it is just one media outlet in the liberal morass of CBS, NBC, CNN, CNN Headline News, CNBC AND MSNBC. The combined viewership of the three major broadcast networks is over ten times the combined total prime time audience for Fox, CNN and MSNBC. Some threat.

Allow me to share one particularly interesting study that Bozell presented in his book. The Clinton years saw the emergence of a man named Larry Klayman and his group Judicial Watch. Judicial Watch filed several lawsuits against the Clinton administration dealing with such things as campaign finance irregularities. The media treatment of Klayman and Judicial Watch was brutal. Time magazine wrote “Even in the fang-bearing world of Bill Clinton’s most dedicated pursuers, Larry Klayman is in a class by himself.” A review of stories featuring Klayman and Judicial Watch by Bozell’s Media Research Center showed that it was a rare occasion indeed when Judicial Watch was mentioned in a network news cast without the accompanying “conservative” label. Things changed, however, in 2002. And why did things change? Because Judicial Watch filed a lawsuit against none other than the hated Vice President, Dick Cheney over his connections with Halliburton.

Bozell uses CNN’s Judy Woodruff as an example.

March 3, 1998. Woodruff reports that “lawyers for the conservative group Judicial Watch” had some questions about Bill Clinton and FBI files. July 10, 2002. Woodruff, reporting on the lawsuit against Cheney, says “The reviews of President Bush’s speech on that subject [corporate responsibility] were still coming in today as a watchdog group said that it was suing Vice President Dick Cheney.” Clever, don’t you think? When Judicial Watch sues Clinton, it’s a “conservative group.” When it sues Cheney, it’s a “watchdog group.”

Read Bozell’s book. He has example after example of the media referring to Judicial Watch as a “conservative group” when Clinton was the target; and as a “watchdog group” when the target was Dick Cheney. Bias can be somewhat subtle, my friends. This example of bias wouldn’t be so crystal clear to a viewer without the historical context.

By Gina

March 29, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

I am a Black woman and I have observed many family court cases. In family court, White, Black, Yellow and Brown men are crushed! That is one place where no man enjoys special privileges. What has the disparity accomplished? It has destroyed our families and children.

You want to know the most protected individual…the White Woman.

By Gina

March 29, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

In Black families, the husband is more likely to be murdered than in families of other races.

I have observed many family court cases. In family court, White, Black, Yellow and Brown men are crushed! That is one place where no man enjoys special privileges. What has the disparity accomplished? It has destroyed our families and children.

You want to know the most protected individual…the White Woman.

I support fairness. As a minority woman with a Jewish father, I could push “victimhood” as some people do but I work for true equality.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

Did we not just get to a point that this comes down to the individual? That generalizing only damages the progress one wants to make?

I find it frustrating and insulting that Whiley seems to think all men wear the same hat, or that the individual man bears some responsibility for the wrongs of another.

It is that attitude that will drive those good guys away, therefore fullfilling your belief that they are rare.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

I am still trying to figure this out: Know anything about nudibrachs? Hermephridites that fight with their two p*** (yes ywo, and like swords), and the first to get a strike, impregnates the other. The loser becomes the female and the winner the male. This is currently where we belief of the trend of huter/gatherer and homemaker/nurturure started. If you are going to go back to oppression, it begins here. No such word as hermephridites except in South Park. If you meant a creature with both sexes it’s “hermaphrodite.” Nudibrachs are a type of mollusc. Did you read an anthropology book? You got the hunter/man, gatherer/woman division right but homemaker/woman and nurturer/woman are not any division I ever heard of. Maybe all the rest of you are laughing that I’m taking this at all seriously but…I am just curious!

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 29, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

lozen, Sorry, no spell check and typing fast today.

No anthropology book. I am a Cognitive Science Grad and read about them in Psych Today.

Not sure what else you are unsure of in my posting. People were looking at the first break from hermaphrodites to two distinct sexes. They were interested in if the sparring that took place would be a setup for males being stronger and etc.

Quite incredible if you can witness the fight.

By Crystal

March 29, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

To Z-man,

Perhaps you would like to hear another viewpoint on our aircraft carrier USSCarl Vinson. If it is crossing the Indian Ocean,it is probably headed for the northern most island of Indonesia. The 8.7 earthquake there has once again caused terrible damage. There was no tsunami as in December but the reports tell of demolished towns, injured people without aid, no food and water and no word from other islands with a population of 10,000. In December our navy was one of the main early distributors of aid by helicopter. No one else could reach them. As for other ships, they are probably moving into backup positions. As for nuclear armament, I didn’t think that was anything new. Haven’t we had nuclear submarines for years? I just wanted you to remember that these moves may be for good, just as they were once before. We AMericans often work for the good.

By Whiley

March 29, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

“Whiley seems to think all men wear the same hat, or that the individual man bears some responsibility for the wrongs of another.”

I do NOT think all men wear the same hat ! However I can’t tell who is who a lot of the time.

Individual men are responsible for the wrongs of other men. Women certainly aren’t, & we CERTAINLY can’t stop male violence. You guys are the only ones that can. We are tired of asking nicely for someone to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

By lozen

March 29, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

Gina, could you give some examples of how men are crushed in family court cases? As for black husbands being murdered, who murders them?

By vince

March 30, 2005 07:09 AM | Link to this

In the Jan. 5, 2005 “w2w” column, Shaunti argued that women are not earning less in the workforce because of performance, but because they choose not to do equal work. They choose part-time work, for example. And this week, she is claiming that for every 100 journalists she knows, seven of them are confessed conservatives (so Diane’s argument has no weight), and that the gender imbalance isn’t due to strong, opinionated women, but simply that the media is reflective that men occupy more positions of authority than women in the broader scheme of things. You know, I am a man, and I guess this should make me secretly jump for joy, but rather it makes me afraid. None of the arguments mentioned above are excusable folks. They are meaningless. Just because “well, that’s the way things are” is so weak. Can you imagine if Shaunti was around when women were debating the right to vote? None of you women would vote if she used her reasoning now back then. And according to the 2002 (latest report) US Dept. of Labor Workforce Performance Report, women working the SAME job as men are making 70 cents to every dollar of their EQUAL male counterparts. There is no part time here folks. What this is about is very simple: value. The work of women today is valued at a healthy 30 cents per dollar less than men. And as far as the media having only 7percent conservatives, someone pass me an anti- vomit pill. Shaunti, please answer me and all the readers this: If the media was so liberal, why are the following occurrences fact (not opinion based for my argument): Jeff Gannon - A homosexual prostitute, used faked credentials and for over two years had a White House Press Pass. That story came in one day, and floated out the next. Ask people on the street who Jeff Gannon is and they don’t know. But everyone sure knows about Monica Lewinsky and the cigar. Using reality for this question, what was potentially fatal for the security of the highest office in the USA? A one hour cigar, or over two years of fooling the CIA, FBI and The White House Security Clearance Team? Two week prior to Bush’s re-election date, the US Dept.Of Treasury reported to Congress that for the first time in our history, the national debt ceiling was breached, and we had no money for the Government to operate through Sept.2006. That report was published four hours after Bush was sworn in. (Those pesky liberals) Nine Billion dollars of Fed. money has been lost in Iraq. Not spent, but actually lost. Where is that story? Those are only three of plenty more examples of where I just don’t see the media as being liberal. If it were liberal, Jeff Gannon’s name would get more coverage than Michael Jackson. Women, please, take heart. You do not need to sit by and accept things to be the way they are, because they are. If you do the same work as a man earning more than you, demand not only the compensation, but starting demanding to be valued as a contributor to your profession. Because, if you allow the male dominated decision makers to continue seeing you as a care-giver, a wife, a mother, a sister, an aunt, a girlfriend, or a mistress, then you are saying that quiet discrimination is perfectly all right in your eyes and maybe your work isn’t as valuable as a man’s.

By z-man

March 30, 2005 07:35 AM | Link to this

Crystal, if that task group were the only one heading to that area I would be more inclined to agree with you, but there are three on the way and the information that they were heading that way came in prior to the earthquake. As you have said, we Americans often work for the good. I agree. What I’m wary about is an escalation in tensions. The wrong sequence of events occurs and that whole area could explode in a major conflict. I think it’s worth it to watch.

By Tony

March 30, 2005 09:20 AM | Link to this

Michael “In fact, I don’t think you even understood a thing that I said, so go back and read it again. The physical exam that Bush refused while in the Air National Guard was the first one in which drug testing was a part of the exam and he did refuse to take it and was no longer able to fly as a consequence.”

FACT 1 1971 (September) Operation Golden Flow goes into effect in order to attack habits of U.S. servicemen. In June 1971, the U.S. military announces they will begin urinalysis of all returning servicemen. The program goes into effect in September and the results are favorable: only 4.5% of the soldiers test positive for heroin. Source (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/cron/)

FACT 2 DRUG TESTING IN THE MILITARY SERVICES Two decades ago, the military was confronting a massive drug problem. In some outfits and overseas bases, the number of drug abusers topped 3.5 percent. In a few places, the scourage had engulfed half of the personnel. Broken down by services, the rates of illegal drug use were 29 percent of the Army, 33 percent of the Navy, 37 percent of the Marine Corps and 14 percent of the Air Force. Upon assuming command of NATO forces in 1974, Gen. Alexander Haig was appalled by what he found among the American units in Europe. In his autobiography he wrote, “This was not just an Army problem… On an inspection tour of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean Sea, I found ill-disciplined, ill-trained, sometimes disoriented sailors operating some of the most sensitive and powerful technology in the American arsenal.” So he was determined to correct that intolerable situation by initiating the drug test program that was adopted for use throughout the armed services.

Gen. Barry McCaffrey, the current White House drug czar, also took up arms in one of the military’s most successful operations— that war against the illegal drug epidemic that infected one in three soldiers. As a young battalion commander in germany, he saw firsthand how illegal substances were ruining the Army. “As you looked around you, a third of the battalion was using illegal drugs, and another enormous number of them were abusing alcohol or both,” he said. “So the impact on us was just beyond belief. Gang rape, violence, property damage. Unprofessionalism. Rsm.” Under Gen. Haig’s leadership, the military, fng the hard realities, decided a “get tough” program to stop the menace was needed. Special programs were put in place on an urgent basis. But the centerpiece of the effort in all the services was mandatory, random urinalysis three million of which are performed annually. The root philosophy was one of deterrence more than detection. The fear of getting caught is a powerful deterrent. Therefore, drug testing, as a component of a firm compassionate, rehabilitative and quality-controlled program designed to get ride of the abuse rather than the abuser, works effectively and humanely.

I doubt you will admit that your post are filled with claims that are utterly false! Oh and Michael, I will be going through Georgia in just a few short weeks. Maybe you’d like to hurl your insults at me in person?

By lozen

March 30, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

Vince, you are so right! And the reason nobody knows who Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton are is the same: women’s history is devalued simply because it’s women’s history. It is not important because it is her-story.

By Crystal

March 30, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

Z-Man,

I realize that there are about ten countries which could be considered “hot spots” in the Middle East. Did you have any particular one in mind? I haven’t read anything about the task groups’ movements. With our military fighting a war in Iraq and trying to clean up Afghanistan, there’s always plenty to worry about. I try not to do that since it doesn’t help. Every day I am thankful to be an American.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

I will believe there is finally equality when a very obese, very unattractive female wins American Idol. If Scott wins I’m finished watching that show.

By Gina

March 30, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Iozen,

The men are murdered by their wives.

In my volunteer work, I work with mother’s groups and father’s groups. In family court, many men are assumed to be the ones who wanted the divorce and is walking away from their families. So often now, it is the woman. The men are reduced to a visitor in their children’s lives and demoralized by the court. They often don’t get a chance to try to save their marriages.

Women are very well protected and tend to walk away with almost all the marital assets. Then, I hear from young women at work why young men are reluctant to marry. I tell them, my generation was more protective of our virginity than the current generation. Plus, many young men feel there are no benefits in marriage for them and in the case of divorce, they are screwed!

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Whiley, This sums up what I am trying to get out of you. You state: Individual men are responsible for the wrongs of other men. Women certainly aren’t, & we CERTAINLY can’t stop male violence. You guys are the only ones that can. We are tired of asking nicely for someone to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

How do I have anymore control over idiot guys that are brought up will screwed values? I can realistically do the same as you, influence those around me best I can and educate - I cannot tap into the general male psyche like some collective conscienceness.

I agree, there are problems, but this is a societal issue.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Thank you Gina for answering my question. I don’t understand why it seems so different to me than the way you describe it. It’s rare when a day goes by without at least one story in the news about a man murdering his girlfriend or wife. Why don’t we hear about all the women murdering their husbands I wonder? I thought court was the place to establish the facts but you’re saying that isn’t happening in family court. You can’t be saying that women who walk away from their families (children) get all the marital assets can you? imo, anyone who gets married without thinking about the legal aspects of marriage (and that’s probably most people) are in for a few rude awakenings. Were you saying young men should remain virgins if they want to get married? Sorry, didn’t understand that part.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

Angry, I think we women would like to see some organizations for men that really discourage violence against women. We would like to see attitudes change so that violence against women would never be excused in any way. Instead we have rap and mtv.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

AngryGrlsAreFunny / But you guys make the rules, pass the laws, enforce them. You set up a court system that usually lets rapists go. Lets sex offenders out of prison. The ONLY reason there is ANY protection against domestic violence is because women had to fight & struggle to get it. Yet still women are murdered at an alarming rate daily.

Men are responsible for the wrongs of other men. You can do so much, you just don’t realize it. Don’t ever buy porn. Don’t laugh off sexist/rape jokes. Tell your friends it’s not right to yell out, comment, or grope women they don’t know who are walking by. If you know someone beats or verbally abuses his wife or kids, do something about it. Raise your boys not to abuse girls, raise your boys to respect women. Never use sexist words; slut, whore, bI#ch, etc. Encourage men/boys birth control responsibility for themselves. etc etc etc. Teach boys not to sexually harass or stalk. When one of your friends is opening cheating on a spouse, abusing porn, etc, SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Just recently a frat at a college had a sex video from a party, I believe they hired hookers? That college should shut down the fraternatity, close down that house & suspend everyone. I’ll bet most guys on campus think it was cool. That’s another generation of sexist boys that will grow up to be sexist adults.

There is so much men could do.

By Gina

March 30, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

The newspapers just aren’t as concerned when a woman kills a man because it isn’t “hot press”.

In most family courts, the man doesn’t even get to speak. Many of the facts aren’t brought out. I have several co-workers whose wives had affairs. Yet, they got custody of the children, the marital home and large child support awards. Their infidelity wasn’t considered by courts.

I am saying young women and young men should try to not sleep around. Sleeping around cheapens oneself…and women are not held to the same standard. My dad often told me society views women different when it comes to intimacy and to protect my reputation because your good name is really the only thing you have.

Getting married is a financial risk in this day and age. More so for men than women…

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

lozen, I do not see how that solves anything. I do attend such events here in Athens, but all the people agree there. It seems the best that can be done is to enforce laws against violent behavor and have manditory organizations for those who break the laws.

I would be ok with going as far as castration for repeat sex offenders and similar harshness for spousal abuse and etc.

We are going to have to find a way to address the culprits though and re-educate them; not me and the rest of the guys who have respect for others.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

Gina, you’re kidding right? - “The newspapers just aren’t as concerned when a woman kills a man because it isn’t “hot pressâ€?. “

The entire world stops when a woman kills somebody, but men do it all the flipping time!

By Gina

March 30, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

We can’t completely blame men. We women must also teach young women not to choose professions where they are exploited. Most of these women just want to get paid and are detrimental to other women who work hard for equality.

By Jack

March 30, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Real men don’t hit women. If a “man” does, he should be flogged.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Whiley, Are you ever going to get it? Certain men commit those crimes all the flippin time, not men in general.

Stop blameing the gender and provide some solutions. Do you even participate in anything?

By Gina

March 30, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

I see in the press where the world reports when a man commits a crime. When a woman commits a crime, the reason just couldn’t be because she is a criminal, it must be because she was “abused”, “post-partum syndrome” or “PMS” and isn’t given much press.

By Brian Curtis

March 30, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

quote: “Real men don’t hit women. If a “manâ€? does, he should be flogged.”

I’m curious… Is it okay for a woman to hit a man?

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

I believe it is not okay to hit others, period.

By Gina

March 30, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

It is not okay for a woman to hit a man, but I have often seen it. The woman smacks the man in the face, daring him to hit her. The woman knows the man wouldn’t dare hit her back because she would have him arrested for domestic violence.

Things aren’t always what they seem. I have an uncle who was a victim of domestic violence. He was more like my baby brother since he was born when I was six. His murderer was given sympathy due to her gender. In fact, during her bond hearing, she asked to speak to me thinking as a woman I would be sympathetic to her. To me, she was just a murderer. It sickens me when I see women use their gender to their advantage just as it does when they use their race.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

There are a lot of women who hate women too! We have all been brought up in a culture with an undercurrent (only sometimes blatant) hatred of women and we all absorb it without even knowing it. Until I was in my mid 20’s, I wouldn’t even read a book written by a woman! Women were inferior, men were superior. Women talked about boring things like children and cooking and housekeeping and men talked about important stuff. That’s what I was taught and that’s what I believed. I am so glad I lived during the 60’s and 70’s and the 2nd wave of feminism!

By Scott

March 30, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

Sorry for the late postings……

Sandy Just to respond to some of your points….Regarding the pharmacist, I don’t disagree with you about him. It’s irrelevant whether the women wanted the prescription for birth control purposes or just to regulate their cycle. If they have a legitimate prescription, he should have filled it. If he doesn’t, then he should be reported to the board overseeing him and made an example of.

However, regardless of your reality, I am not confused in my observations, nor are they irrelevant, regardless of what you think. A lot of people in the middle class (I’m one of them) have a hard time making it. It’s part of the reason my wife and I have delayed having kids, because we know how hard it will be to provide for them. I understand what you are saying and, yes, there is a disparity in culture between the haves and have nots, but I don’t agree that men are solely responsible for it.

Whiley & Lozen While I generally find your opinions to be well thoguht out and interesting to read, I honestly don’t know how you can say you aren’t man-bashing with a straight face. If I am responsible for every man’s wrong-doings or archaic attitudes, then I am holding you responsible for every lying, cheating, violent, hateful, manipulative woman I have ever encountered. Why don’t you do somoething about them?

Saying that I am reponsible for their behavior is ridiculous. I don’t buy porn, I don’t abuse women verbally or physically, I don’t tolerate men who do and have even physically intervened when the opportunity arose (though I have been assaulted by the same women who called for help, on occassion), I will teach respect to any sons I may have as I was taught…these are just facts.

Not that I expect you to take me seriously or even believe me. I share the frustration with the legal system’s release of murderers, rapists, stalkers, etc. and am intimately famiiliar with that process. I am doing all I can to make the world safer.

I get the message though…regardless of any efforts on my part, as long as men screw up in any way, I am on the hook for it. If a man acts like a jerk and treats a woman badly, it is my fault. Women can do what they want..the world will be a better place…message received.

I will continue to do what I can to protect women and children because it is what I believe to be fair and morally right…regardless of whether you think that my efforts are worthless or whether you hold me culpable for every male wrongdoing in America

By lozen

March 30, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Scott, Aren’t you being a little hysterical ;-) Please give me examples of my man-bashing!

By norman

March 30, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Many woman and men who consider themselves feminists don’t realize that feminism as a movement was founded by theorists who (consciously or unconsciously) applied class warfare concepts to sexual relations. The idea was basically that men were the haves and woman the have-nots, and that a revolution against the man in favor of the woman would thereby help to overthrow the tyrannical bourgeois family. (The family is here considered an obstacle to human liberation.) It is no accident that leading feminist theorists from the 1960s denounced the “old” idea of womanhood (i.e., marriage and motherhood). If memory serves, the saying was something to the effect of, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Feminists have peddled the fiction that men are engaged in a vast conspiracy against women, that something like 85 percent of employed women are sexually harassed in the workplace, and that something on the order of 50 to 70 percent of wives are beaten by their husbands. Feminists want to establish the rule that offenses against women should be defined (not objectively, but subjectively) on the basis of how the woman felt instead of what the defendant did.Before the feminist movement burst on the scene in the 1970s,there were literally hundreds of laws that gave advantages or protections to women based on society’s common sense recognition of the facts of life and human nature. These included the prohibition against statutory rape, the Mann Act, the obligation of the husband to support his wife and provide her with a home, special protections for widows (e.g., one state gave widows a little property tax exemption, another prescribed triple penalties against anyone who cheated a widow), and laws that made it a misdemeanor to use obscene or profane language in the presence of a woman.The feminists want the battered woman syndrome to free any woman from conviction of violent crime. The feminists are even pushing the Catharine Mackinnon fantasy that all heterosexual sex should be considered rape unless an affirmative, sober, explicit verbal consent can be proved. The feminists want the action of a battered woman who kills her husband to be considered as normal. They want us to believe that killing a man in his sleep can be excused as self-defense. They want to establish a license for women to kill their allegedly abusive spouses. More lawyers, scholars and academics are badly needed to speak up and expose the feminist foolishness for what it is: a scurrilous attack on our Bill of Rights.

By Scott

March 30, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

Lozen, no I’m not being hysterical…I’m just tired of the “men are responsible for the woes of the world” garbage. I knew what you were tlaking about when refering to Anthony and Stanton, since I do know history whether it’s a “her-story” or not. Most high school kids can barely find wyoming on a map, much less know history, so that’s a fault in education. But I am sure that has something to do with men as well

By Scott

March 30, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

Lozen, no I’m not being hysterical…I’m just tired of the “men are responsible for the woes of the world” garbage. I knew what you were talking about when refering to Anthony and Stanton, since I do know history whether it’s a “her-story” or not. Most high school kids can barely find wyoming on a map, much less know history, so that’s a fault in education. But I am sure that has something to do with men as well

By lozen

March 30, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Scott, you haven’t given ME any specific examples of my man-bashing! I am talking about a patriarchal society that has existed for thousands of years; I am not bashing individual men!

Norman there are all kinds of feminists just as there are all kinds of atheists. Please don’t try to define my feminism on your terms. Again, most of the feminists I’ve known have been married women who certainly do not denounce the family or marriage or love or any of our sacred cows. The feminist movement did not burst onto the scene in the 1970’s; that was the second wave of feminism. It all began in the mid 1800’s with women who just wanted to vote. And there were no laws protecting women until those first feminists/suffragists fought for them and won. The laws that you claim protected women before the 2nd wave of feminism in many cases kept women from work that paid a living wage. I am a woman and you are not. I know what it meant to be a woman before the 2nd wave of feminism and you do not. Please do not pretend to be the big expert on feminism!

By Scott

March 30, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

Lozen - ok, if you say so

By Jack

March 30, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

Brian Curtis - No it is not ok for a woman to hit a man. If she does, he should walk away. A man should never hit a woman unless maybe the woman comes after him with a knife and in that case he should just run.

By Scott

March 30, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Lozen - my apologies…after reviewing the entire blog, I errantly included you in whiley’s man-bashing

By Gina

March 30, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Jack, my uncle tried that and he is in his grave. If a woman hits a man, yes, he should walk away but don’t turn your back!

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Can anything be concluded so far? Suggestions for a fix?

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

Scott none of us are talking about you then ! If all men were like you so much would be different. Are ya cute too? (lol sorry)

As a man you have no idea what it’s like to have so many predator-type men running around. You aren’t really a target my friend.

Did you catch the latest news? A man head of the Boy Scouts was caught peddling child porn.

Do you see why we are all fed up & angry with men in general? (Not you or men like you)

Now, one thing we DO NOT do is raise our daughters to be smarter concerning love, dating, marriage, children. We are not honest with our daughters because to tell the truth of the dangers in life is to male bash. We have got to get past that.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

Whiley, Do you have anything productive to post? Any suggestions? Anything to bring to the table at all that could provide a healthy direction?

I have addressed you a few times with no response received.

Do you participate in anything for women on a regular basis?

By vince

March 30, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

Currently, the facts are clear:

Women are considered socially deviant. In fact, anyone that is not a white heterosexual American male is deviant.

Jerry Falwell has refused to place second in the “Holy Hospitalized Hysterics”. You go Jerry. I mean, who is The Pope anyway? Trying to take centerstage away from you.

Anyone who adheres to any idealogy that women make less money, or are not holding down powerful jobs compared to male counterparts, because women work part-time, or need extra time to take care of the family is a moron. Women are earning 70 cents to every dollar earned by men when looking at the SAME job. This means women continue to be seen as providing lesser value in their work.

People never act in violence against other people. Their aggression is an extension of their stupidity. But, beating the hell out of yourself would look silly.

Back in college, while living off campus, a female neighbor almost died from being raped. When she was healthy enough (i.e. when the insurance folks could not legally bill her for anything else) to leave the hospital, her complaint to the police department became a real nightmare. Instead of trying to figure out if there was a danger to the well-being of young women in the area, the crime fighters focused on what she was wearing that night, had she been drinking, dancing, flirting, gardening, changing a light bulb while wearing no underwear, cooking a meal in the nude, combing her hair with someone elses fingers, picking up invisible quarters, etc. She had no choice but to drop the claim and move on.

You see, a quiet, normal woman came home late from the library. Her car broke down a block from the complex, and because she was working full time to pay for full time college, she had no money at that moment, and decided to walk home and deal with the car in the morning. A few months later, her reputation in the local press and with anyone who didn’t know her, to be a whore. She was raped, almost killed, and learned it was her fault all along.

PEOPLE. WAKE UP.

Funny, when I was raped, the police laughed at my report and asked me if I was from a singing telegram company. I don’t know what would have happened to me had I decided to ignore them and file a complaint. Wait. I do know. Eventually I would have to prove I was drunk, wearing a tight mini skirt, was flirting all night, and asked to be raped.

By AllaboutME

March 30, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

…….well, this column certainly shows there is little need for more women opinion columnists……who reads them anyway when theres a blog to spew on……question: how many opinion jockeys does one paper need?….why does it than the staff ratio of female/male employees matter less than a single opinionist…la times is not exactly a male-biased paper..nor is Wash. Post…so what exactly is the gripe our two estemed women debate….? some white chick isnt in enough syndicated papers complains theres a bias…Estrich used sexism to ignore fact she isnt as popular an opinion jock as she thinks she is/wants to be to get folk into a later!…she caught audiences too, eh…typical of opinion jocks…all opinion…little fact…..scream a lot…matter little…I mean…are you all really opressed because you dont read Susan Estrich…

By vince

March 30, 2005 02:22 PM | Link to this

Looking at this blog is the very reason why we need more women in the media forefront. Look at how misinformed everyone is. But more imporant, the more presence, eventually people will see the value of women as equal.

By Scott

March 30, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Whiley Well, my wife says I am cute, but she’s biased (likely from my acute ability to brainwash women…what a valuable class in school! LOL ;) )

While I would agree that I am not frequently a target, I have to disagree with you that I don’t know what kind of predator types are running around. I used to be a police officer in Atlanta and have responded to hundreds of domestic violence cases (remember where I said I had been assaulted by the same women I was protecting…well, they wantd my help until I actually started to arrest their husbands/boyfriends/paramours for their violence) and hundreds of rapes, sexual assaults, child molestations, etc. It has ALWAYS been a pet peeve of mine when people pick on others who they deem weaker for whatever reason, if nothing else but to serve their weirdo fantasies. I give no quarter to such individuals, nor do I believe they deserve any.

In my current job, Ihave locked up several Child molestors/child porn freaks and took great pleasure in doing so. My only regret with the vast majority of them is that they don’t seem to want to fight when we hit the door to serve the warrant for them. Pity. I guess the prospect of dealing with a full grown man isn’t as appealing as a child that can’t defend him/herself.

I agree we don’t teach our sons or daughters the truth about danger (a mistake I am not willing to make in the future) I won’t tell my daughters that all men are out to get them or dangerous but I will tell them that the world is dangerous. It never ceased to amaze me how oblivious the average person is to the havoc being wreaked around them regularly as they go through their day. I won’t bore you with that litany, but suffice to say that danger is everywhere, we just need to get our heads out of the sand about it to inform and protect ourselves and our children, regardless of sex.

As for the Boy Scouts, I can say that is an organization my sons won’t join!

By Sandy

March 30, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

Scott- Thanks for responding. Sounds like we’re in the same middle class boat, sinking fast. We waited to have kids, too, but, as Springsteen says, “There are things that’ll knock you down, you don’t even see comin,’ most health-related in our family.

Actually, I never said these disparities were your fault, of the fault of men, at least not directly or individually, and I’m curious to know why you feel that’s how it was intended, unless you decided to lump me in with the so-called “man bashers.”

Generally social policies are not created by large numbers of women, as there are so few involved in politics and legislative those processes, for many varied reasons. I think that both men and woman undervalue the work of women, whether they are working outside or inside the home. Personally, I am more inclined to blame the disparity on the class warfare thing, with the rise of inflation in the 70’s, the era in which I grew up. I always expected to work outside the home, knowing that home prices were too prohibitive to afford on one paycheck. But I never expected that I would not be able to offer my children the same standard of living that I grew up with, modest though it was. The truth is that we have not been able to do with two incomes that my father was able to do on one. (My mother died when I was 12, and Dad raised us alone for a few years). He could and did provide us with parochial education, and I was the first in my family to go to college, paid for via loans. Silly me, a sociology degree in the Reagan years…

Until you have parented, you have no idea how hard it is. I certainly didn’t. If I knew then what I know now, my family unit might be much different. I know lots of people who intone that they could never bring children into this kind of world, and part of me can acknowledge that, but the other part of me knows that having kids makes me a better person because I know how high the stakes are. We have got to improve the state of things, for our and everybody’s children; it is a moral imperative.

Again I mention Judith Warner’s book, Perfect Madness, Motherood in the Age of Anxiety, because she has named the problem in historical (and hysterical), social, economic and religious contexts. While the title cotains the word “mother” she is clearly speaking of the impact that our society and its foibles has on families; she names the problem. I highly recommend this book to anyone remotely interested in having kids, and for anyone who does.

She also emphasizes that women tend to internalize the pressures and demands placed on them, the mixed messages we are sent regularly, and the profound effects in our ability to realistically respond to the issues at hand, and how this in turn affects society.

Frankly, I think that if the disparities were simply due to sexism, they could more easily overcome. But its more complicated, requiring long term social solutions, with no quick fix.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

AngryGrlsAreFunny, I’m sorry if I didn’t answer your question. I did start a post on suggestions how we can improve the situation. My main point is, women have been trying to do everything to avoid being a victim of crime, rape, domestic violence & murder. We can’t do anything else. I’d like to know what men are currently doing to deal with this problem. We can’t do anymore, except educate ourselves better on the TRUTH. Stop being afraid to say it outloud without fear of being labeled a male basher.

Don’t turn this around on me. This isn’t about me, it’s about what are men doing to stop the danger & violence women have to deal with every moment of the day their entire lives.

Sounds to me except for Scott, guys don’t really give a darn & aren’t doing anything.

By vince

March 30, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Sandy - There is no quick fix. But if discussions like this one can open minds, it’ll come a little quicker. People need to value the contribution of women. Perhaps if a man was made to carry a child to full term, have a c-section, raise it alone while working full time, social change would happen very quickly.

Wait. That was a dumb suggestion. Most men can’t carry out the garbage, and that takes what, an entire 30 seconds. The child stuff takes up more time than that.

Well, maybe we need to just keep blogging.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Scott don’t teach your daughters the world is dangerous. That’s what my parents taught me. As a result, I got married just before I graduated from high school because I was so afraid of going out alone into that dangerous world. And it was that man I married who was supposed to protect me who threw me off the steps into the front yard when he didn’t like something I said. It was that man who grabbed books out of my hands that he didn’t approve of, ripped them up, and threw them in the garbage. It was that man, when I was terribly depressed after the birth of my son and was obsessed with suicide, who said “If you’d just clean the house and stay busy you wouldn’t have time to feel sorry for yourself.” I had one new born and a three year old but he thought I just didn’t stay busy enough! There was no help for me there when I needed it most. My ex-husband was, for the most part, a good man. Still, he became violent with me when he didn’t like something. I never became violent with him. Why was that? It is people who are dangerous to others. And as a police officer you saw what group was most dangerous to others.

By norman

March 30, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Remember this: The strongest sign of the decay of a nation is the feminization of men and the masculinization of women. It is notable that in Communist nations women are exhorted, and compelled, to do what has traditionally been men’s work. American women, some of them, feel triumphant that they have broken down the ‘barricades’ between the work of the sexes. I hope they will still feel triumphant when someone forces a shovel or an axe into their soft hands and compels them to pound and cut forests and dig ditches. I hope they will be ‘happy’ when a husband deserts them and they must support their children and themselves alone. (After all, if a woman must be ‘free’ she shouldn’t object to men being free too, should she?) I hope they will feel ‘fulfilled’ when they are given no more courtesies due to their sex and no kindnesses, but are kicked aside on the subways buses by men, and jostled out of the way by men on busy sidewalks and elevators…. I hope, when they look in their mirrors, that they will be pleased to see exhausted, embittered faces, and that they will be consoled by their paychecks.Feminists who ceaselessly inveigh against their own oppression by men (often hardly specifying its exact nature) would ignore how they themselves have oppressed feminine women. It oppresses a woman who could delight in domesticity to tell her that her domesticity makes her a parasitic inferior to men. It oppresses a woman who yearns to stay home with her children to tell her she is worthy only insofar as she achieves in the workplace.There is also the telling fact that feminists demand that strength tests be watered down so that women can pass them. Feminists simultaneously demand that no one suggest women are not as strong as men and then turn around and demand that all the strength tests be changed. It’s one thing to waste everyone’s time by allowing women to try out for police and fire departments under the same tests given to men. It’s quite another to demand that the tests be brawned-down so no one ever has to tell female Harvard professors that women aren’t as strong as men.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Whiley, It is that us guys that ARE doing something deserve respect.

I attend more than a dozen regularly schedule events each year (yes, one a month minimum). I contribute, donate, schedule…I am involved.

I talk with my kids, neices and nephews regularly; as well as countering people’s idiot views in general.

What do you do that has you at your ends?

Could you re-think your insistent what are men doing prose and at least show some respect and state the reality that (once again) “what Certain men are doing?”

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

norman , did you just vist Rush Limbaugh’s website?

By Bruce

March 30, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

I have seen it mentioned several times and was hoping someone would respond but they haven’t so I will.

Whiley, you have asked us men to police ourselves and each other, one of your examples was stop wathing/buying porn. Are you doing anything about those women that star in these type movies? Do you think that if most men stop buying, and I say most because we all know alll men will not, then the porn industry will go away? If we are expected to police other men then would it be fair to ask you women to make the porn stars stop making the movies? If so, what are you doing about it?

I was brought up buy a father that would half kill me if he found out I had hit or abused a female in any way for any reason. And he only had to prove he would twice but my sister started it. But it taught me that women were the most valuable gift a man could have. They should be respected no matter what.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

“attend more than a dozen regularly schedule events each year (yes, one a month minimum). I contribute, donate, schedule…I am involved.”

to What?? The Christian coalition? Randall Terri’s new house fund? The fund raisers for the new Gold Club? (You might want to be more specific)

(lol sorry I couldn’t help myself you left that wide open!)

By lozen

March 30, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

What a stupid post, but that’s nothing new for you, Norman imposter, is it? You are such a coward you post your bull under Norman’s name. “The strongest sign of the decay of a nation is the feminization of men and the masculinization of women.” What crap! The strongest sign of the decay of a nation is when the well off don’t give a darn about anyone else and take away all the safety nets for those who are down and out! My grandmothers never had those soft hands you romanticize about; they worked on the farm plowing, chopping cotton, wood and weeds, canning, gardening, washing the dead, burying their babies, saving their egg money so they could buy cloth to make clothes for their family, stirring the dirty clothes in the pot our in the yard over the fire, and drawing water from the well! You don’t get soft hands from doing all that work. What world are you living in? Both of them also stayed married to men they knew were cheating on them because it was so hard back then for a woman to support herself and her children. Grow up and stop fantasizing about the good old days! Women have been deserted by husbands and raised their children alone since time began; it’s nothing new brainiac.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I am done here.

No need for further proof that you do not want to solve anything; you are only looking for attention.

You need to grow up before anyone will listen to you. Good luck.

By vince

March 30, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

Hi Norman,

If I was a woman, and I got kicked around on subways and jostled out of the way on busy sidewalks and elevators, the first thing I probably would think about is, “Oh why did we fight to be heard equally?”

Did you forget to take some of your pills today?

And then, to paint a horrific picture of what “could” become of women if they chose not to delight in domestic work… Didn’t Bush try that with WMD’s?

This is craziness. You Right wingers need to stop trying to paint a grim outcome of what could be if people decided to actually think on their own and give equal value to themselves. You are making an issue of morality into a sexist sin. But, them right wingers love doing that. They make up fiction to create fear to motivate the masses. And yet, when something actually real and scary happens that potentially could have shut down the White House (Jeff Gannon), it goes in one ear and out the other. I have a feeling that if Jeff Gannon had oil stock, or this happened while Clinton was in office, nobody would ever shut up about Jeff Gannon.

Nobody knows what would happen if women earned equal pay for equal work. NOBODY. Nobody knows about tomorrow either.

Take away the genitals and we all run on blood, with similiar organs, and equal potential.

By norman

March 30, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

I can see the root of the problem now! The strongest sign of the decay of a nation is when the well off don’t give a darn about anyone else and take away all the safety nets for those who are down and out! Is this said from personnal experience while you were on welfare? “The Rich work hard for what they have why should I?” OR IS IT…“The only reason they got rich is by taking advantage of the poor”. Talk about CRAP! Woman do all the work while their fat lazy husbands drink up all the babies milk money, and then come home and beat their loving supportive wives! Is that it lozen? If those women were as loud mouthed and combative as you are no wonder those men found somebody else. Your husband must be the most whipped man on the planet to be married to you.

By vince

March 30, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Bruce - Women doing porn isn’t the problem. The problem is that its an option to earn quick money. The problem is what men are viewing in porn. Most of them “do gooders” that are all about morality, have no problem bashing gays, because they are programmed to relate being gay to male/male sex. Anything that is a threat to the “boy’s club” which runs this country must be lashed out against and destroyed. And yet, if you took away the lesbian scenes found in almost every hetero porn movie today, them same “morality marchers” would comment over their beer, “something wuzn’t as good in that movie”.

Women and men will continue making porn as long as its there. Say, there’s a tie-in to the actual question at hand…. Why are most porn production companies run by men? And why are the best selling porn movies the ones where the male stars out number the female stars? Shaunti might suggest its because the women who do porn have to take care of their children, and just don’t have time to run a big movie studio.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

Everything about the porn industry is sad. Sad women with issues & drug/alcholol problems. Sad men who have no problem paying for it while ignoring the sad truth about the women who do it.

Now, the women who prance around all high & mighty proud about it really upset me. They may not be hurt from porn, but they are hurting all women.

And you know it really does hurt men. Gives them unrealistic expectations of how women really are. About what having a real healthy relationship is about. Suddenly normal women are unattractive.

Angry girls, the first step in solving a problem is honestly discussing it. It may not be what anyone wants to hear, but it’s a step in the right direction for everybody.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 03:47 PM | Link to this

I’ve never been on welfare, you imposter. Why don’t you have the guts to use your own name instead of hiding behind Norman’s name whoever you are, you coward? What a big brave man you are and just the one we women need to tell us what soft hands we have. I don’t have a husband; I left him after he threw me down the steps and then told me how much he loved me!

By lozen

March 30, 2005 03:50 PM | Link to this

Very strange thing happening yesterday and today - several of my posts never show up on the blog. Is anyone else having that problem?

By Bruce

March 30, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Vince,

So now women are gold diggers and will do anything for money? I saw part of a speical a few weeks ago on E! that featured a Jamison woman. Supposed to be the biggest porn star ever, male or female. Has her own production company and everything. I don’t think the entire porn industry can be blamed on men. Yes men should not buy this crap, yes men have responsibality it this industry but if there are no women to star then there would be no industry. Right? All I was saying was if you are expecting men to do their part stopping other men, then I think women should do their part stopping the woman that star in porn.

And I do hope someone will start a topic about Jeff Gannon so you can finally get that off your chest.

By Scott

March 30, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

Lozen - I absolutely will tell any daughters I may have (and sons for that matter) that the world is dangerous. I just won’t leave them with the impression that they need a man to protect them from it. My wife has asked me to instruct her in firearms and self defense since I am certified in firearms instruction and defensive tactics instruction. I do this so she is better prepared for any dangers that might arise when I am not around to help her. I plan to do the same with my children..give them the ability to help themselves and not be a victim to any agressor. Teach them what I see that not everyone sees. Self-reliant, responsible, but realistic children.

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

lozen, Misogynists will never hear you or even care.

But we do.

:)

By lozen

March 30, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Okay Whiley, you got it going on! Now I have to say this, Why is AngryGrlsAreFunny using that name? Laughing at angry women? Referring to women as girls? Strange. Why is he taking this criticism so personally if he is such a big supporter of women? I don’t like it when black people blame all whites for the way they are treated, but I do listen and I do understand their anger. I don’t like it when native americans don’t want anything to do with me because of the way white people treat them (I admire their culture) but I understand it. It seems to me that Angry would at least understand why there is anger toward men.

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Man, I have to move out of Georgia. This emotional retardation and lack of intellect is depressing.

You girls love the blame game and this is why people say assertive vs b*itch. There has been multiple attempts to get to a common area, but you girls burn the bridge before crossing. You know the person in the meeting that only points out problems and not a fix? That fits you.

I guess this is just one of those girl things that you just want to discuss and not actually solve anything? Run in circles all day long because you can? You know the mars/venus stuff? Change your mind cause you can?

None of you girls (minus Sandy) could be a role model for women. Jena has more integrety than you could hope for Whiley.

By Jack

March 30, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

What amazes me is that this is Wednesday and this blog hasn’t turned into an arguement about religion yet. Maybe they put a block on the “ilk” HAHA!

By Bruce

March 30, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Ohhhh Jack said the “R” word. Someone please call the blog police.

By lozen

March 30, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Ah ha. AngryGrlsAreFunny finally comes out with his hostility toward “girls” just as I expected. Reminds me of the men who joined NOW and other women’s organizations in the 60’s and 70’s and then got all whiney and upset when we didn’t pat them on the back ten times per meeting and tell them all the time what great guys they were!

By Whiley

March 30, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

(AngryGrlsAreFunny)ZACK IS THAT YOU? oh my we ladies have MISSED YOU SOOOO MUCH !

lozen I was going to say something earlier about the Angry Girls name. I think you are very accurate.

JACK DON’T SAY THE “R” WORD ! ! ! ! !

lol

By AngryGrlsAreFunny

March 30, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Trying to be rational with irrational people is what drives one nuts and can result in frustration.

I have tried to talk to you both, but you are more interested in yelling. If one constantly ignores what you say and barrels through, you tend to shut them out - that what I am doing. No big surprise - standard human nature.

My name was a result of Whiley being such the Agry little girl stomping her foot. Not in this blog, but earlier ones - multiple occasions.

got all whiney and upset when we didn’t pat them on the back ten times per meeting and tell them all the time what great guys they were! Thay may have been great, and you chose to be sexist and label/clump them (btw - this is sexist). You may miss out on all the great guys because of this.

Sandy seems to actually want to talk about a solution. But seems she left…wonder why? I would figure she does not want to be associated with you.

By Crystal

March 30, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

Oh, I’ve just come in. The world outside is wonderful. Sun shining. Birds singing. All that good stuff. It has been a fine day. Hope you didn’t miss it.

P.S. Did you hear about the man eating sharks gathering? Hey! I’m talking about Florida, not blogs.

By Jack

March 30, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

I had always wanted a little girl but we ended up with two boys. Probably a good thing since I know how boys think. If I had had a daughter, my hair would be solid white by now. I did coach my 15 year old niece and told her that no matter what a boy says, there is only one thing on his mind. Just say no. If he’s worth a toot, he’ll wait. just say no. I have told my boys that when a woman says no, that means stop and if I find out they did otherwise, there would be a high price to pay. Now I’m waiting for a grand-daughter. (I ordered 2 each!)

By lozen

March 30, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

AngryGrls is Randy! “I have tried to talk to you both…” sounds just like “I have told you the truth many times, you can’t argue with it, but you don’t want to hear it!” If you are a science student at UGA, …if…. I’m probably old enough to be your grandmother and I am a woman. Females over 15 are referred to as “women” not girls. Thank you.

By AngryWhileyIsBothersome

March 30, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

I met my wife at “Take back the night (anti rape org)”

I provide free graphic design for and participate in: Mental Health Awareness (founded for a female student) Women on campus’ yearly conference Human rights Festival Womens Health Adgenda Boy-butane Ball All four womens clinics in the greater Athens area And many other non-women things like pet adoption agencies.

There are many more and I will bring in a list from my design folder at home.

I know I am plugged in. Are you?

By AngryWhileyIsBothersome

March 30, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

No I am not randy. Nor a student.

I am a 39yr man. Web Programmer/designer. I did attend UGA, but years ago.

I have degrees in: Psychology Cognitive science CS Minor in Philosophy and multi-cultural lit

By lozen

March 30, 2005 05:12 PM | Link to this

Whew, I really believed that first post using Norman’s name was Norman! I was really feeling hurt that he would say those things. Should have known it wasn’t Norman, but fool me once, Zack, shame on you! It is a beautiful day outside! If I didn’t have to work, I’d be out there (after taking my allergy pill!)

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

AngryWhileyIsBothersome ?????

I have my first fan ! Thank you, thank you

lol

By Euniculus

March 31, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

Whiley, take a self defense class and enjoy your life. No need to walk around constantly terrified of people.

By Sandy

March 31, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

Angry, I don’t want or need your approval, and certainly not at anyone else’s expense. Driving someone into the ground does not make one better, smarter, or more informed. I get a sense of a divide and conquer self-serving mentality from some of your posts. Sometimes men get lots of positive attention for doing things that women have to put up with every day. Sometimes one has to look at the passion and emotion behind the anger and ignore the impulse to “solve” the problem by saying “I’m a better feminist than you are…”

You accuse women of getting whiny and upset and being immature, but your approach to the topic is to provoke and irritate like a annoying little boy.

I’m not a girl, either. Just an earnest and extremely busy woman trying to elevate the discourse. I post infrequently because I am working.

By AngryWhileyIsBothersome

March 31, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Understood Sandy.

I was hoping for dialog on the issue and felt all I got was blame.

I agree that my posts were not palletable as they should be to be as helpful as possible. Yet in my defence, I had tried to break out of the cirlce blame stuff to get to a point on what to do about these issues; but it seems no-one wanted to have that conversation.

By lozen

March 31, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

Angry, I will say again: I don’t like it when black people blame me and all white people for the prejudice and rascism of some of us but I listen to what they say and I understand their anger. I don’t try to tell them how they should feel or how they should handle their issues. I don’t like it when native americans don’t want to have anything to do with me because of the way some whites have treated them, but I don’t try to tell them what they need to do and I listen to their pain and their anger. You have a lot to learn about women and feminism and women’s problems (you call women girls and you want to tell us how to handle our problems) although you apparently have some empathy for this. You might try listening a bit.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Agreed lozen, I can do that. I do not operate on the basis that I cannot change. It is all data until processed and I have no problem with looking at what I can do better in difficult situations. And your complaints about tone and verbiage are noted.

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

Mrs. Schiavo has died. Please join me in a moment of silence.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this

Lozen why is this so personal to you? Whiley said: “Individual men are responsible for the wrongs of other men. Women certainly aren’t, & we CERTAINLY can’t stop male violence. You guys are the only ones that can. We are tired of asking nicely for someone to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.”

Then Angry lists the things he is trying to participate in, which is what Whiley says is the answer to this problem…

Sounds like Angry is listening: “Do you see why we are all fed up & angry with men in general? (Not you or men like you)” (this is just such a blatant contradiction it is frustrating.)

The reason that we are all here is to talk, yes talk and listen but to discuss things. With all the labeling of men going on I can understands someone getting hot under the collar.

Lozen why take so much offense at the semantics of girl/woman/female?

By lozen

March 31, 2005 10:30 AM | Link to this

Sandy, wish you had more time to post on this blog. We need your intelligence and your level head!

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Reggie, Thanks for seeing passed my errors in verbiage and into the topic I was trying to discuss.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Lozen why take so much offense at the semantics of girl/woman/female?

Reggie , how would you like to referred to frequently as a boy?

I do post angry toned statements a lot, sometimes I forget how they may come across. I am however, tired of being sweet about it all. lol

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

Whiley, the point is that it doesn’t matter if you are called a girl/boy. It isn’t a negative/slanderous term particularly. Especially in this context, certainly isn’t akin to the B word or others. Just seems like you are trying to find something to be offended by while ignoring the answers to your own questions.

Also I missed when you were being sweet, when was that? Was it on this board?

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

You have to read between the lines for sweetness Reggie you sweet little boy.

lol

By lozen

March 31, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Reggie, Would you ask a 62 year old black man why he would take offense at being called “boy”?

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

What was the question I was avoiding? I have bad short term memory.

By Jack

March 31, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Reggie - Most of the women on this blog are sweet.

By Michael

March 31, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

To: Tony, et al.,

Tony must still be smarting over the intellectual beating he took in his attempt to defend George Bush in the last topic. His latest attempt to redeem himself is almost as humorous as the earlier collection of red herrings and comments that were so irrelevant that they weren’t worth responding to, so I didn’t. (It reminded me of when I was in graduate school at the University of Illinois, the profs and teaching assistants kept a file of copies of “funny student papers.�)

When I asked for evidence for the claim, taken for granted by so many conservatives, that a “liberal bias� exists in the news media I meant evidence resulting from serious, rigorous, impartial methodologically sound, social scientific research, not hack journalism such as produced by Brent Bozell III. (I’m tempted to call it “bozo� journalism. I think that there is probably more merit in the work of former comedian Al Franken, at least he had some Harvard students working for him, and the book “What Liberal Media?� by the left wing journalist Eric Alterman. But, issues of intellectual rigor aside, I am sure that conservatives such as Tony would never contemplate reading someone who actually says something that they don’t agree with.)

Bozell is one of several former writers for the National Review who have given up the pretense of being journalists and have turned to overt political activism instead. Stephen Holmes left the NR to become president of the “Club for Growth� which bills itself as “the nation’s leading free-market political advocacy organization� and produces and airs televisions ads for Republican candidates and Republican policies and against Democratic candidates. (For example, the egregious anti-Dean ad in the Iowa primaries.) Bozell founded the “Media Research Center� one of a number of such groups, another is AIM or Accuracy in Media, whose reason for being is to “prove� liberal bias in the media. Very objective approach, no? More recently “Mr. Bozell launched the Conservative Communications Center (C3) to provide the conservative movement with the marketing and public relations tools necessary to deliver its message into the 21st century� to quote from his home page. I hardly trust the work of someone whose life goal is to promote the view, by hook or by crook, that the American media is ideologically biased. When I taught at Georgia State I used material from the “Media Research Center� to illustrate and criticize advocacy research, though I am not sure it even qualifies for that title, since there is so little real research, but a lot of advocacy.

Advocacy research is research conducted by organizations devoted to advancing a particular view, policy, or set of interests. Hence, advocacy research usually violates the cannons of objectivity in pursuit of a favored social policy. The appropriate role for policy research is not to define policy; rather, it is to establish a body of evidence from which informed judgments can be made. Again, the primary problem for someone who is assessing the plausibility of a claim from such a source is that these sources are usually biased and sacrifice objectivity to achieve research results favorable to a particular interest.

Bozell’s various groups are part of the emergence of a parallel world of conservative journals, “experts,� foundations and organizations, that by sheer volume and repetition of consistent messages have gone a long way towards displacing, in the public mind, the findings of legitimate research on a range of issues such as media credibility, energy policy, environmental research, immigration policy, population issues, family, divorce and related public policies, tax policy, welfare benefits, health care, education, crime, gun regulation and crime, and even definitions of science and evolutionary theory as they are featured in high school curricula. The “Family Research Council,� “The Heritage Foundation,� “The CATO Institute,� are just a few of these organizations, and one can say that the first two, at least, are a cut above Bozell’s third rate advocacy group.

Anyone who thinks that the Fox news division, headed by the former media advisor to Reagan and the first Bush and who has admitted that the intent of Fox news is to counter the “liberal bias� in the media, is impartial or objective or “fair and balanced� would probably believe that Rush Limbaugh’s program is politically neutral, or give credence to the slanderous “Swiftboat Veterans for truth� (now working under the guise of “USA Next� and making up claims out of thin air about the AARP.)

One of the findings at the Center on Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland (a nonpartisan academic research institute) in a report they released last year (October 21) is that those who rely primarily on Fox television were the most poorly informed of the citizens surveyed. Those who utilized PBS and NPR were the best informed and the difference on issue after issue was considerable. In particular, it showed how ignorant most Bush voters were of the policies of their own candidate.

If one chooses to be an dogmatic ideologue, as most ardent Bush supporters do, then there is nothing that can be done for them. They will remain in their hermitically sealed conservative, political “Alice in Wonderland,� also known as the world according to Fox, the media arm of the Republican party.

I prefer to adopt the motto of the 19th century philosopher William Clifford: “It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.� (Especially claims about WMDs.)

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

For frame of reference: I do not believe adults exist yet on this planet. I think that we all are in a process of maturation that does not magically come about at 15yrs, 21yrs or 100. It come from our movement and learning. This applies to me as well; I am a boy sometimes, and I still have things to learn about which parts are still in progress.

This is why I choose to refer to people (myself included) as boys and girls. It is more accurate that smart/dumb, educated/ignorant, or other labels. We all know better, but we still choose not to think.

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

AWIB,

I too can see where you are coming from. It appears that Whiley and Lozen are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. If you can be so easily offended by the generic use of the word girl/boy you are just plain unsecure and childish.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Whiley, seems that only empty space is between the lines hard to see the sweetness between the self described “angry toned statements”.

Lozen, Yes I can clearly see the offense in calling a 62 year old black man “Boy”. But as I pointed out that is not the context it was used in here. It was: “you girls”, which puts the definition of the term clearly with just females. While I think it is important to keep your words impeccable, it is a bit of the pot calling the Kettle black to get so bent out of shape when the Ladies have been throwing around terms like Misogynist and predators for ALL men.

The question you posed Whiley is: “We are tired of asking nicely for someone to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.â€? But you ignore them when they list some of the things they are contributing to and slander them with manic jokes like: “The Christian coalition? Randall Terri’s new house fund? The fund raisers for the new Gold Club?” You think Men are responsible but when one agrees with you and is actively participating in your solution, you want to (as Sandy put it): divide and conquer (with a) self-serving mentality. So what is the agenda anyway?

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

If the derogatory crap was dropped, we could possibly talk about solutions.

Like policy change that would get people early on to change their thinking.

I do not think that censorship of mtv, porn, etc. is the answer. I believe that in promoting whatever (responsibility? More to add here?) was instilled/taught to the boy who enjoys porn, mtv, etc; but knows the difference between fantasy and reality - and does not act it out. That is a function that can work no matter what the influences out there may be.

By lozen

March 31, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Bruce it seems to me that you pick one small part of what we are saying and magnify that while ignoring anything you might learn from this discussion about women. But, you know, we’re used to that. That’s why women have issues with some of you boys. You will do anything to keep from ever listening to what women say.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

Making a mountain out of a mole hill? How many women in this country will be raped, murdered, or beat up by their spouse today? How many will be abducted in a grocery store parking lot? etc. How many sex offenders are going to be released from prison today? Scott do you have access to these records?

I’d say we haven’t began to make a mountain.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

lozen, I want to hear what have to say, aside from issues with me, but on the topic of male violence and its possible solutions.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

OH MY I’m a silly little girl today. You were talking about making a mountain out of a mole hill concerning being called a girl.

Where is my brain today? I think I need another coffee.

lozen, boys drool.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

Bruce, appreciated the comment, exactly what I was saying. Lozen, I am utterly curious, what is it you want Bruce and the other gentlemen to learn about women from your posts? That they are angry/bitter/_? And I am extremely sorry that you have allowed yourself to exist in a world were you would get used to being ignored.
You reference “You will do anything to keep from ever listening to what women say” but have not addressed many of the post which responded directly to you. You wouldn’t be falling into the pattern of what you are attacking, now would you?

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

Reggie nobody listens when we are sweet little girls either.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Whiley, where do you live? Just seems weird that you constantly refer to these horrific things like they are part of every day life for you! Maybe you do live in an extremely dangerous part of the country.
I can tell you that I lived in the Murder Capital of the world through high school. Yes there are parts of the city that are scary but it is what AWIB is saying, you have to make good decisions for yourself.
Don’t get me wrong and don’t go off on a tangent. I know that it is NEVER the victims fault in a violent assault but the odds of your safety do go up when you travel in groups, don’t go out late at night (as you yourself mentioned) ect., ect.
And what in the heck does being called a girl/female on a computer blog have to do with the things you describe? I am not saying that this doesn’t happen somewhere each day but the way you describe it is as if it is all around us in every single grocery store. I am worried about you Whiley, do you really live your life like this or are you just carrying this banner as your go-to-point when you don’t like something?

By lozen

March 31, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

The point I am trying to make is that females are denigrated in so many ways (some very unconscious ways) in a patriarchal culture. Semantics is very important. It is most basic, what we call things. Calling 62 year old women “girls” is one way of trivializing females, just as calling black men “boys” is a way of trivializing black men in a rascist culture. But, rather than listen to what we try to tell you and trying to understand and taking it seriously, you brush us off as if it were so trivial - making a mountain out of a mole hill! Reggie, Bruce, Angry, you are telling us something we find offensive is absolutely unimportant. How can you talk about ending male violence when you refuse to listen to what women have to say? I think these natives who take offense at being called “injuns” and “squaws” are making a mountain out of a mole hill don’t you Bruce? So why should we listen to anything they say? We’re just going to get defensive and tell them they’re overreacting! See any similarities there with the way women are treated when they’re raped? It’s a logical outcome of the attitude.

By Crystal

March 31, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

Uh, oh. Michael’s back and putting his political thesis on this forum. 300 WORDS!!!

Oh, well, ladies, girls, women, children—I am sorry that your life experiences have been so terrible. Some have obviously been subjected to torment and crime. I cannot change the past. But I believe women’s rights are now equal to any other citizens and discrepancies can be dealt with by law. Women have to be strong enough to use the resources available.

Think about those women in much worse conditions than yours. Women in Indonesia are being crushed and flooded. They have lost husbands, children and homes. No local economy remains in some places. Or picture the women of Darfur where most of the men have been murdered. Where rape is used as a weapon. Where two million, mostly women, are living in scanty refugee tent centers. They watch their children die daily.

We do complain about those things that hurt us. But do we complain about the suffering and dying of other women, even those far away?

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

Turn on the local news. Why act like everything is peachy keen? It’s sick ! Oh the cops are looking for a man that just raped a 9 year old. (the news is on) Good thing I keep my doors & windows locked. What a fun way to live ! (if I wasn’t so cautious & became a victim, it would be my fault for not being careful enough)

You’d think the country would be furious about this guy, but no, we are too wrapped up in a brain dead woman that should have been allowed to die years ago !

Rapists & murderers, no thanks, we like to use all our energies to more important things.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

I value your opinion lozen, So I will repost: I want to hear what have to say, aside from issues with my use of the term girls, but on the topic of male violence and its possible solutions.

I am truely intersested in what you have to say.

By Jack

March 31, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

I can think of no solution to the problem of violence against women other than women refusing to take it anymore and fighting back. That is really not a solution but society has to change. It doesn’t look like it will. Look at the Hip Hop/ Rap culture and it’s attitude towards women. The only suggestion I have is for women to fight back and fight dirty. Unfortunately, there are too many men in this world that will stand by and not do anything when they witness abuse on a female.

By norman

March 31, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Look at lozen’s posts. She is an angry bitter woman who didn’t get in life what she felt SHE DESERVED. Lozen, never takes resposnibility for how her own life ended up, it was always SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT! She even throws childish fits when someone calls her “sweetie” or “honey” like that Boscoe or Randy character did a few articles back. lozen needs to take a look in the mirror.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

“Good thing I keep my doors & windows locked. What a fun way to live! (If I wasn’t so cautious & became a victim, it would be my fault for not being careful enough)” Whiley, every intelligent person knows it is: “NEVER the victims fault in a violent assault” Why are you arguing against this??? We all have to make smart decisions, just like you don’t step across a 6 lane highway in rush hour. But locking your doors isn’t a terrible way to live just something that you do.

And what in the heck is this line about: “Rapists & murderers, no thanks, we like to use all our energies to more important things.”???

I would also like to hear from the two ladies about possible SOLUTIONS to the problems you bring up.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

“can think of no solution to the problem of violence against women other than women refusing to take it anymore and fighting back.”

I know your intentions are good Jack, but once again, the burden is put on women to stop the violence.

“She is an angry bitter woman who didn’t get in life what she felt SHE DESERVED. Lozen, never takes resposnibility for how her own life ended up, it was always SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT!”

Doesn’t sound like that at all. It is what it is, she’s forced to live in a sexist world set up by sexist people. There are more women than men in this country, why in the hell do we take this crap? They rule everything.  I hate this system & men created it!  Women need to quit being afraid to rock the boat, get off their butts & demand equal rights & safety from violence. We need people who run for public office to recognize that we are a force to reckoned with & not some weak helpless blob that has to take this anymore.

(oh was that too angry for a girl?)

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

“NEVER the victims fault in a violent assault� Why are you arguing against this???

How many times have we heard “what was she doing jogging at night? What was she doing alone with a man she barely knew” Why did she keep her window open to allow that guy to get in? Why didn’t she leave her husband?” She was probably a nag to her husband, he was falsely accused of rape that’s why he killed all those people etc.

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

I do understand what you are trying to say. I do understand that women are victims to some of the deplorable crimes humans commit on each other. I do understand that white people have abused their power over Black, Indain and other races. I live in the South and have witnessed it. But I just could not understand why the term “girl”, used in a general manner, could cause such a reaction from you. Being rapped and being called a girl are not the same thing now matter how you look at it. Quite frankly it makes me less interested in what you have to say because it does not compare. And I don’t care how old you are it is still childish to be offended by that term when used in that manner.

By Elaine

March 31, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Crystal,

You have to be a southern belle, dainty flower, that grew up on the plantation Tara with Daddy buying you the new car when you turned sixteen. You went off to the University of Georgia (Daddy paid for it.) where you met Brad-Bob at some sorority social. You two got married, you now drive an SUV (to tote your 2.5 children) with a soccer ball on the back. Ah, the perfect life.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I agree that the system needs over hauling. Yet, your suggestion Whiley is a contradiction: You want men to change things, but do not want men in control. You do not want to be the force to move such things, but will not trust guys to do this - but charge them with it.

This sets up a stalemate.

I am trying to break that stalemate by pointing out: There are several remedial people in the world. We need to associate ourselves with more than gender if we are going to make a group vast enough to do something about it - it will take both sexes to undo this mess. So we have to look beyond the lines of sex (otherwise it is sexism and we are trying to fix the problem by using the problem).

But for this we must be able to sit down and understand that individual boys and girls are not the problem. We must be able to honestly look at how all this fits together in its total complexity.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

OK no more complaining, never listened to anyway.

Solutions…..

By lozen

March 31, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

And now Reggie you feel called upon to tell a woman when she expresses her fear that “things just ain’t that bad.” How do you know? You don’t! But still you refuse to listen! You just have to argue with her that she is over reacting. Every woman takes all kinds of precautions every single day that you as a man never think about.

By Jack

March 31, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

Sorry Whiley. Like I said there aren’t enough men willing to beat the s—- out of those who abuse women. I had a chance once with my worthless ex-brother-in-law but he ran before I got there. (I was quite disappointed too) I offered the only solution I can think of.

By lozen

March 31, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

To the wuss posing as Norman: Time for your pill babe. You are just too hysterical for words.

By RS

March 31, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

How about one of the ultimate forms of denigrating women?? C’mon, people, its’ all over the news today…Read Terri Schiavo’s (R.I.P) bio…she’d still be alive & healthy today had not society put so much pressure on women to be thin & “pretty”. Granted, she made a foolish choice but do any of you people know how badly & unfairly “ugly” women are treated? Men, however, can look any darn old way & that’s just fine. Well, it sould be just fine for both sexes. I’m not saying there aren’t ways in which men are given the short end of the stick, they certainly are, but this is not one of them. But, for women, it’s a way that can carry with it, tragic consequences. And it just did..Yes, Bruce, let’s have a moment of silence not only for Mrs. Schiavo, but for every precious girl & women who is made to feel devalued for superficial reasons.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

Better that you weren’t able to get to him Jack. You’d be the one in jail. Crazy isn’t it?

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Jack, I think that is a short-coming. To beat the hell out of someone for being violent? Fathers use that on their kids, which is what creates this “beat it out of them” mentality, that they in turn use on their wives.

While I have felt the want of giving in to ape like tendencies, I never have - nor would say I should have.

More hate and violence is not the answer. The notion that more violence will fix things is the direct cause of this topic being recurculated. This I know.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I have some questions for you: Have you ever been raped? Because I have, in a friends basement at the age of 16. Have you ever been physically abused by a man that was your husband? Again I can say yes, I lived it for almost two years before I took control over myself and my happiness and left.

As you may be able to tell, your assumption of my masculinity were wrong. I am a 26 year old, divorced, professional woman. I find it very hard to stomach most of the ideas your are trying to sell with your posts. I find them more archaic and damaging to our cause than what almost any men do.

The solution is this: Stop B*** and Start a Revolution, if this is your passion!!

You say: “Women need to quit being afraid to rock the boat, get off their butts & demand equal rights & safety from violence.” I whole heartily agree. The truth of this statement lies in the fact that the only person you can change is you, pointing a finger of blame changes NOTHING!

Have you ever run for Public office, have you worked on the campaign of a woman who is? (To let you know, I have, only to explain I am not asking arbitrarily or holding you to higher standards then myself)
Have you volunteered your time at a Rape Shelter or Hotline?
Have you even attended a rally or other political event like “take back the night”? Don’t know if you heard about it but last April I participated in The March for Women’s Lives in D.C. (even got my mom to join me who is a card carrying member of the Dreaded Christian Collation). Women like Gloria Steinem, Whoopi Goldberg, and Tyne Daily spoke about the way to change our country, the message was the same: You, yourself is where it starts, where the only change can begin is with your own attitudes, actions and words. I know that I am the one responsible for myself and my world. Complaining accomplishes NOTHING, do SOMETHING!! This is why I agreed with AWIB. The solution is in you sweetheart, it lies in each one of us. Treat your partner right and raise your babies’ right, that is where it starts!!

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

AWIG,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on one point. My father beat the s**t out of me ONLY when I DESERVED it and the only thing it taught me was never do that again. But it was not only the beating but he took the time to explain WHY he did it hence the lesson he was trying to teach me. I have never used him beating me as an excuse to hit someone else.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

Reggie, Did not see that coming!

Do you really participate in “Take back the Night?” That would mean you are in athens as well? Interesting.

Breastfest is going on Arril 2, planning on attending?

By lozen

March 31, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

Whiley, please see if you can find some of the last things written by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. She realized at the end of her life that women have to change things for themselves and cannot depend on men to do that. This was after she expected the men she had supported so many years in the anti-slavery movement to support her in getting the vote for women. She was devastated when they did not. I used to be just as angry as you are because I felt I needed things from men that I could never get - Now, that I am older and post menopausal (men-o-pause, get it) I just don’t waste energy being so angry at men anymore. They are just weak, imperfect humans like us. They can’t save us. They can’t protect us. They can’t solve our problems. They can’t really help us in so many ways. Most men can’t listen to the important things we have to say - we need other women for that. It is very hard for the majority of men to hear women, and impossible for them to understand what we need. (There are a few men like Vince who are exceptions and most of them are gay!) This blog today and yesterday has been such a microcosm of this patriarchy and all it’s sneaky, little ways that go so deep and reach so powerfully into every part of every woman’s life.

By Crystal

March 31, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Elaine, you are so right. I’m just a southern belle, dainty flower that grew up on a half acre plantation in the middle of a town of 7,000. Rode a gas-guzzling Greyhound to a state university (not in GA) to get a degree. Met adorable future husband while I was working in a hospital and he on a project for Corps of Engineers. My 5 children have no problems with my Cavalier. (Don’t carry volley balls.)

Now, there’s my resume. May I now speak about womens’ rights or is that only for CERTAIN women?

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Still risky if you ask me. Explaining the why may have worked for you, and you dad may have been able to communicate it well; but you cannot expect the same results repeated consistantly with other people.

He may have had judgement that I would not claim: To know when some actually “deserves” a beating. I do not have the power to make that call, nor do I want it.

There are better ways.

By Michael

March 31, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Better stick to levity Chrystal, rather than trying to raise a serious question (which can easily be answered), your style is better suited to it.

My response was for Tony and other Bush die hards, and sometimes word limits are an unnecessary constraint.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Not to be offensive but Take back the Night Rallies are in Hundreds of communities: “Take Back the Night is an international rally and march that is organized in local communities with the purpose of unifying women, men, and children in an awareness of violence against women, children and families. Take Back the Night rallies and marches began in England as a protest against the fear that women encountered walking the streets at night. The first Take Back the Night in the United States occurred in San Francisco in 1978.â€? I find it quite attractive and stimulation that you, AWIB, attend such events, it is gratifying to see gentlemen participate in such a positive endeavor. Sorry to say not in Athens. Are you really going to attend Breastfest? Curious what is the event about?

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Good post, however some things I don’t feel the need to talk about. Although there are lots of ways I daily deal/fight to change things, nothing will get done until men get real & face some fact then do something about it. We need more men like Scott !

lol Reggie I thought you were a man because of your name.

Frankly I’m sick of doing the rally’s, doesn’t change much except maybe add a few more laws & gives women better ideas on how to avoid becoming a victim. (important yes, but that doesn’t address the REAL PROBLEM) I don’t have time to volunteer for any rape crisis centers or women’s shelters. Do something about the problem, not just Band-Aid over the after affects (don’t misunderstand, we need as many crisis centers as possible)

You want something really done? Execute all sex offenders, or never let them out of jail. Believe victims of date rape & abuse. Put away violent offenders for longer. Make them work in prison. Pay for their own living expenses. Man beats his wife & she has a restraining order & is afraid he will kill her? PUT HIM AWAY or force HIM to leave the state. ZERO tolerance.

JUST DOING THAT would put a huge dent in the problem. Will it ever happen?? hahahahhahahaaa !

By lozen

March 31, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Also to the little coward pretending to be Norman, you must not be southern if you think that was a fit. We southeners know what a real “hissy fit” is!

By Tim

March 31, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

I like Whiley’s solutions!!!

when are you running for Senator? I will volunteer to be your campaign manager

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

Whiley,

I would be for bringing back public hangings. I absolutly agree with zero tolerance.

By Crystal

March 31, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

More compliments from you, Michael. So glad I excel in levity and style. I hope someday you will get some of the same.

Word limits may be unnecessary constraints but they are the rules. Try it! You’ll like it! (More hilarious levity!)

By lozen

March 31, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

Whiley you’re right about changing the laws that make the US so unsafe for women and children. And that means changing the whole criminal system to work for different people than those that created the system. But Crystal just informed us that women have equal rights already to all other citizens! We’ve won our battle; didn’t you know that?

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

So Whiley just to recap your post: Men are the REAL Problem? Strange that you are unable to take ANY personal responsibility.

Also can tell from your last post you must not know anyone who is or has been inside the legal system in this state. I apologize in advance, but I feel your ignorance shows in your attitude.

Further more who is going to pass those laws of ZERO tolerance you are so for? Not those Men who are in charge that you so hate and have said do so little—Right Whiley? Do you even have time in your busy schedule to vote? Or again is that not the REAL Problem?

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

BreastFest began in 1999 as a tribute to Tyanna O’Brien, a New Jersey mother who lost her life to breast cancer at the age of forty-eight. Her five daughters carry on her legacy through a commitment to awareness and prevention of the disease.

It is a very positively motivated group and serve a great purpose.

Here is the link: http://www.breastfest.org/athens/index.htm

lozen, In Tom Robbins, There is a scene featuring, “The Chink,” the Japanese anti-guru who lives in the hills near the cowgirls’ ranch. At one point, he’s having a conversation with one of the “girls,” and they’re talking about the state of the world. “The Chink” says that the biggest problem facing humanity is “ambulatory catatonia.” And doesn’t that just seem to be the case?

What you stated as your solution is ambulatory catatonia. Simply stated: There is a certain scariness to this idea- one we’ve mentioned before - that of being cast adrift, alone, in a little boat on a dark and stormy sea. There is no meaning, no direction and no help from “above.” Giving these choices, three options exist: fall overboard and drown, stop paddling and tune out (ambulatory catatonia) or enjoy the paddle anyway.

I choose to enjoy the paddle anyway. You could too.

By Vince

March 31, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

The original question has been shuffled to the side, and a debate on the battle of the sexes is on.

Instead of trying to figure out why there aren’t more women feature columnists, society is doing what it has always done best. Get away from a very good question, which could result in better employment for talented women, and move to a discussion about porn, attitudes, rape, etc.

Do not think for a second this is, “the way it goes sometimes.” Not at all. This is what men do best. (Yes, we are still a society run by white heterosexual American men.) Rather than thinking in terms of equal presence and equal pay, the focus is shifted to “reminders” why things are the way they are.

Genitals need not dictate job appointments nor compensation.

*WARNING: The following will be seen as a “stretch” and might make some of you real mad.”

Last year, for the first time in twelve years, over 200 representatives from countries around the world renewed the World Health For Women Organization, except for one. The Bush USA.

If a woman is raped in Iraq, or Afghanistan, and seeks an abortion to be paid for by her family (not government money), under the current Bush USA control, not only will she be denied that abortion, but will be cut off from other government programs, mostly medicine and food assistance.

So, what has this got to do with women working more in the USA? EVERYTHING.

The Bush Brigade has been pushing hard for women to be encouraged to stay at home, and not work. And what is gross folks, it the death of Terri today.

The same government that loses its hair over an abortion of a non tax paying, non resident of the USA; the same government who falls apart when anyone suggests that euthanaisa is an option; the same government that claims, “to protect the civil rights” of its citizens… finally showed their true colors and Karl Rove had no time to prepare and spin the story. How can the Bush Brigade for God and Life say that the courts should stay out of this, that the family and/or the state should handle this?

PEOPLE: WAKE UP.

The government just said it’s ok to starve to death with no say in a hospice, and in the same breath will punish women for seeking an abortion due to being raped by someone in the US “coalition”. But, lets pass that federal law prohibiting gay marriage, but lets protect the civil rights of everyone by butting out and letting them starve to death.

Is anyone else stunned by just how horrible Bush is? Or, am I still the only person in Atlanta seeing this. (I am convinced I am the only person in Atlanta buying gas, because nobody else seems to notice what the Bush Brigade is doing to us there as well)

By Tim

March 31, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Whiley… castration would be another solution for sex offenders

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

So Whiley just to recap your post: Men are the REAL Problem? Strange that you are unable to take ANY personal responsibility.

Also can tell from your last post you must not know anyone who is or has been inside the legal system in this state. I apologize in advance, but I feel your ignorance shows in your attitude.

Further more who is going to pass those laws of ZERO tolerance you are so for? Not those Men who are in charge that you so hate and have said do so little—Right Whiley? Do you even have time in your busy schedule to vote? Or again is that not the REAL Problem?

Again you avoided almost ALL of my Questions!

By Jack

March 31, 2005 02:17 PM | Link to this

AWIB - I believe in an eye for an eye. If you don’t think one who abuses women don’t deserve to have the hell beat out of them, you need help. (I would gladly serve 1 day in jail for the pleasure of beating one of these “men” senseless)

By Tim

March 31, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Whiley… castration would be another solution for sex offenders

By Lyrazel

March 31, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, and pray what happens after the conviction is overturned on false evidence but you have already hung someone?

By Tim

March 31, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Whiley… I also do not think that castration would be a too extreme form of punishment for sex offenders

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

I could never run for office, I had sex before I was married. frequently actually. What can I say, it was the 70’s

lol

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

The way in which lozen has chosen to deal with these societal problems are illustrated by Tom Robbins here:

There is a scene featuring,”The Chink,” the Japanese anti-guru who lives in the hills near the cowgirls’ ranch. At one point, he’s having a conversation with one of the “girls,” and they’re talking about the state of the world. “The Chink” says that the biggest problem facing humanity is “ambulatory catatonia.” And doesn’t that just seem to be the case?

ambulatory catatonia is easiest described like this: There is a certain scariness to this idea of being cast adrift, alone, in a little boat on a dark and stormy sea. There is no meaning, no direction and no help from “above.” Giving these choices, three options exist: fall overboard and drown, stop paddling and tune out (ambulatory catatonia) or enjoy the paddle anyway.

lozen, I choose to enjoy the paddle anyway. You can pick your paddle back up and make that choice too. Same goes for you Whiley.

But until either of you decide to DO something besides blame, you understandably have no effect on the world - and I DO understand how that would not make you happy. But once again, your choice.

Crystal and Reggie seem quite happy and adjusted, may want to ask them what their secret is.

By Lyrazel

March 31, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Hmmm, and just what happens to the man convicted and hung is later found innocent because of false testimony/evidence? Kinda have to say, Oops.

Is it justice? No.

Why not spend the amount of money we spend on incarceration on rehabilitation? Why not? Because there are more lobbyists/money to be made supporting a penal system than through rehab and job training=zero solutions to problems. Its also very American way of dealing with problems…but head in sand solutions always fail in the long run.

Remember, the Boy Scout leader so vocal about not including gay troop leaders has now been busted for having kiddie porn…so much for promoting good moral values….

Posting problems.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

Jack, I do not see violence as a solution to violence.

I agreed that I may feel the want of bashing a rapist, but I also know that the rapist was a child once, who in most cases had pleanty of violence already. The rapist did not start the problem, but is a product of it you see. So we must look deeper.

Anger is the way to the dark side buddy.

I am fine with castration for repeat offenders and other harsh sentences. We first need more people with intellect in the places that would decide such laws.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

I have to say Whiley and Lozen this sure is getting boring. You say you want change, you say it is up to everyone else but you, and all you can do is make unrealistic and quite frankly uneducated statements. I think I agree with Norman “Look at Lozen’s posts. She is an angry bitter woman who didn’t get in life what she felt SHE DESERVED. Lozen, never takes responsibility for how her own life ended up, it was always SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT!” Especially after your last post Lozen: “They can’t save us. They can’t protect us. They can’t solve our problems. They can’t really help us in so many ways. Most men can’t listen to the important things we have to say - we need other women for that. It is very hard for the majority of men to hear women, and impossible for them to understand what we need.”

Why do you need Salvation?
Why do you believe you deserve protection, you quite clearly don’t want to do anything to earn it? I think it is difficult for anyone to listen while they are being universally criticized (as you did me when you thought I was a guy).
As for impossible to understand what we need? Well that comes down to communication, and babies who haven’t learned to speak yet aren’t usually capable of a clear discourse of their needs. I believe you give away your own power, and I don’t see that changing because you are unwilling take responsibility for your own actions, words and attitudes.

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel,

If we made the punishment fit the crime, everytime, it may not stop it but you can be sure it will deminish it quite a bit. So far I have heard disagereement with beating them and we can’t hang them. Looks to me like all we have is that which in in between. Which is what we have been doing but it isn’t working so what should we do? If what we are doing isn’t working let’s try something else. Beat’em and then hang’em.

There is a problem and we need a solution. What solutions do you have?

By Lyrazel

March 31, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

Ways to help battered women without volunteering time: DONATE, Donate, Donate! Donations of clothing are so important because many women leave difficult situations without packing. Kids clothes, and also items of homemaking, like cast-off chairs, sofas, pots and pans, even old silverwear, suitcases, purses. These women leave shelters for residences and need stuff. Think about all you have in your closet that has not been worn in two years—donate them. That lamp Uncle Sid gave you, its been in the garage 8 years and no one buys it at yard sales: donate it! Remember, many of these women are also trying to find jobs so last-years business suit could be her ticket to a paycheck. Battered women shelters have phone numbers to call and they will pick up all donations. Email your legislators daily. If you are upset about abortion legislation, divorce laws, sex-offender release programs email all of them daily. Remember PUBLIC office means being responsive to YOU the public. Work these people, their email, their fax! Let them know your opinions matter! And I know ya all have email time if you can post here!

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

“So Whiley just to recap your post: Men are the REAL Problem? Strange that you are unable to take ANY personal responsibility.”

a WHAT? I’m not responsible for rapists & child molesters! I did not cause any man to kill his wife because she tried to leave him ! I’m not responsible for serial killers that enjoy dumping dead women’s bodies in the woods. etc. I’m not responsible for guys that gun down people.

I do vote. But there’s nothing really good to vote for that will change anything NOW IS THERE.

Great post Vince. :)

Reggie, if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime. “Further more who is going to pass those laws of ZERO tolerance you are so for?” I don’t expect any of them to. Bunch of boys.

Jack, I’ll bail you out of jail !

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Donations, good idea !

Reggie shame on you. You say your a woman, but you sure do talk like a boy.

By Michael

March 31, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Rules, on occasion are meant to broken Chrystal, and obviously they aren’t enforced here in any event.

Some people read a lot (and even publish in places other than these postings which are a lark for me) and actually have something to say. But I stand by my earlier remark, you have not said anything of content in a number of posts (probably constituting more than 300 words.) So, you probably won’t hear from me again, (unless you actually say something.)

By Bruce

March 31, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

Lyrazel,

I have worked in the penal system in this state. They have/are trying your blessed rehabilitation. It doesn’t work because the folks we are trying to rehabliate are CONvicts. They CON us into believeing they want it until they get outside the prison walls. I have seen it too many times. Yes some, maybe less that 2% can and want to stay out of prison, but life in prison is nothing what it used to be. Thanks to a Liberal Federal Judge named Anthony Alamo in the late 70’s early 80’s we can no longer make prison a place no one wants to be. It is a place where a person gets three meals, or more if they pitch a fit, a day, lay in a bed watch TV, lift weights, shoot basketball or play other sports, and never have to lift a finger to better educate themselves, or learn a trade. They have “on demand” medical care, dental care, counseling, etc… Prison is not a place where one goes to learn a trade or become a better citizen. They learn how to be a CON-artist.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Reggie, Like you, Tori Amos was raped. And like you, When asked how she felt, she stated that it was not going to define her life. “I will not be the poster child for rape,” She replied “I am more than that.” More-over, she said “I also cannot allow that man to control me for the rest of my life, and that is what internalizing anger would amount to.” She still promotes women’s issues to a huge benefit and is strong without compromising her femininity - to say the least.

You seem pretty with it Reggie. I am impressed with the integrety you seem to hold yourself to. Please raise your girls the same way - we need it; I promise to raise mine with the same. The same goes for the boys - raise them right.

By RS

March 31, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I’ll gladly help you bail Jack out of jail! I have a few things to say. OK, the crimes y’all have been discussing (rape, sexual abuse etc) are unspeakably horrific & barbaric, & I 100% support castration & public hanging for these subhumans, but what about the other side of the coin? Hark back to my post from earlier today…what about unattractive people (I see it happen to WOMEN, not men, usually) who are beaten & harrassed for the way they look? Is that such an unimportant issue because it’s not a “pretty-girl-problem”??? C’mon, feminists, join hands with me & let’s address this concern! I have a dear girlfriend who is a beautiful human being but unfortunately is morbidly obese. Yes, the main issue at hand is her health but there have been times I’d been out with her in public & she could not walk a few steps without having some a—h—- hurling verbal abuse & even OBJECTS at her! Confessions Of An Ex-Man-Basher: Yes, folks, I was once a card-carrying male-basher until I got out into the world a little more & saw the good & bad in both genders & realized that both sexes do get the short end in different ways. Plus, I’ve since been blessed by having some wonderful men enter my life; I have several terrific gay male friends. And of course, my beloved husband. More recently (within the past year), I’ve cultivated the friendship of a (straight) man who is one of the staunchest feminists I know but he has the gift of treating women like LADIES in an innoffensive, non-patronizing way. I’m lucky to be in his company very often & he’s been a great influence on my husband!

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Whiley, Shame on me? Have you answered ONE of the questions asked directly to you? Or have you duck, dodged and weaved your way out of anything you didn’t feel like owning up to?

You are Responsible for yourself Whiley; I think this is talking like a grown up not particularly a boy. You are responsible for peddling hate. You are responsible for attacking the entire male population with the acts of a few. You are responsible for the things you teach the children around you; whether they are yours or nieces /nephews /step children…You are responsible to do the things that bring about your own happiness. There is no one who owes you anything.

I believe that you think donations are a good Idea because it allows you not to get your hands dirty. Because you don’t want to have to really put anything in to make this world a better place.

“But there’s nothing really good to vote for that will change anything NOW IS THERE.” What a nihilist point of view, it must be awful frustrating from where you are sitting: You can’t change the world because you’re not a boy. But it’s the Boys fault and they make all the rules, but you’re to BUSY to fight the rules, but there really aren’t any rules that will change anything, oh BOO HOO HOOOO! Get a grip; you have made every excuse in the book to allow a continual B*** Fest.

By Crystal

March 31, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Michael, I’ll try not to say anything important so you can relax from the rigors of pomposity. Glad you are keeping up with my posts. I can tell you find them invigorating “larks”, just like you said. Glad to be helpful.

By RS

March 31, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

Bruce, you & I, admittedly, have a history of not seeing eye-to-eye but not in THIS case. I agree w/you 100% about prisons/rehabilitation. I do NOT agree with criminal rehabilitation AT ALL. A person is what they are & they aren’t going to change. Period. OK, maybe one or two but that is the exception. Most go back & repeat the crime. Sorry, it’s not worth the risk to innocent lives in the slim hope that one or two subhumans can be “rehabilitated.” The pattern repeats; they go back to prison & learn more COnning techniques from their fellow scum. And yes, Bruce, I’m equally frustrated with a penal system that consistently rewards bad behaviour.

By J. Morris

March 31, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

Not posted this week because I’ve been slammed at work, but just had to ask - Where are word limits outlined? I’m looking at the posting area and I see nothing anywhere suggesting that there is a word limit? Perhaps her infinite wit and frequent misuse of the word “levity” has caused Crystal to imagine constraints that do not exist.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

“You are responsible for attacking the entire male population with the acts of a few.”

a FEW??????? HAVE YOU checked the prison populations lately? The sex offender registries???????

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

Seems that Reggie is as frustrated as I was yesterday with all of the blaming/dodging going on.

May be a harsh reality, but every battle has its casualties Reggie; lozen and Whiley are convincing me that they are beyond saving in this battle against wrong-doers and will only be dead weight.

Anyone out there that would like to help make a difference? Disclaimer: We are not accepting applications from those who like to sit in their feces and whine about it. Only from those with integrety and self-awareness.

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

How to be a good girl:

Don’t complain about any wrong doings. Everything is beautiful & life is so grand. Don’t worry you’ll somehow be protected from the big bad monsters of the world. Just be a good girl & nothing bad will happen. All you have to do is keep that pretty smile on your face & make sure dinner is on the table on time. Remember boys don’t like girls that might make them look bad.

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

By Vince

March 31, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Oh my heavens. Does anyone here have any thoughts about the lack of professional women journalists?

Oh, what the hell, I’ll join in the fun.

As I mentioned before, I was raped. Knife to throat. Told I could die if I took “too much breathin’.”

Do I think he should be castrated? No.

The castration should go to the judicial system. When a woman is raped, the first phase of information gathering is “signs of a physical attack.” So, when sperm shows up on her person or her panties, the judicial system starts the prowl. Yes, and the prowl is relentless.

If this victim was raped, she must be loose. Lets find out who she was having sex with before the “incident”. What was she wearing? Was she flirting? Was she drunk? Skirt too high?

All the while, the rapist is running amock looking for someone else to eventually invade. Not too worry, in time she’ll become a slut in the eyes of the law.

So, I did not do anything about being raped. Why would I? While the circumstances of my rape are as meaningless as anyone else’s, I was asleep visiting a friend for the weekend. My friend’s roommate woke me up and violated me.

Now, 14 years later, I am more angry at myself for doing nothing than the actual attack.

I really wish nobody ever go through this vile act. Because as helpless as you feel while its happening, is nothing compared to the helplessness when you seek legal help.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

RS and Bruce, I understand what you are trying to get at but there are MANY exceptions to these people. My baby brother is currently in GA State Prison for 5-10 years. Why?

Because he walked into the identical apartment as his, one story above, and fell asleep in the bathroom. Yes, he got the maximum sentence because 4 years earlier he was fired b/c he was seriously injured on the job and the part time job he worked didn’t want a workman’s comp claim. He took a roll of nickels for bus fair when he left. He got 5 years probation for felony burglary, because GA is one of only 3 states without degrees of Burglary.
Fast forward four years, he has a good job, paying his bills, has started a family and is saving for school. After a 16 hour shift he walks into the wrong apartment. The two young ladies that lived there were sure he was there to rape them, even though he never even approached either one (they were asleep in their rooms). Because there was a pair of girls underwear and a cell phone in the bathroom (Both when tested and showed no proof that they were even ever touched by my brother) he was charged that night, after the police officer looked up his prior charge with, guess what, a 2nd Burglary Charge. Maximum sentence.
This is what the problem is with this black and white mentality. This is why there should be rehabilitation programs, because some of these boys don’t belong there. I don’t think you all have the wisdom and the judgment to know every single time weather or not the convicted person is a monster.

By Jack

March 31, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

Rapists should be castrated then put into the general population of the prison then they could find out first hand what it is like to be raped. Then after a while when the start to enjoy it they should be hung. Sorry boys but thats the way I feel.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

Whiley, Can you or lozen see that your postings are indeed childish? That it is just snotty prose? Sexist generalizations?

Do you two really have that little to offer? Can you really read your post and be proud? Would your mom or dad be happy with the beaming intelligent little girl they raised, and how well she articulates herself?

As I see it. Yes, you two have had more control than me in this issue. You two have both enabled abusive guys through your lives. And instead of doing like Reggie, move on and find how to choose happiness; you chose denile. I must ask what your fathers/mothers were like to have raise such abusive girls.

lozen, it took you being thrown off a porch to leave him, and instead of looking at why you supported this animal for so long; you want to blame me! I DO understand that is easier - but not beneficial for you. For now you must be single and angsty, for if you date again, the same monster WILL show up; because YOU have not changed - and it is YOU who invites him in - implores him.

Sick behavior.

By Crystal

March 31, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

Dear J. Morris,

All opinion forums print in big black letters the rule: 300 words or less. It is printed right below the topic question. If blogs are not opinions, then you are right. Or maybe the blog editor died of boredom from reading long posts. But continue on about levity and wit since you exhibit those qualities so often.

By Jack

March 31, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

Lozen blamed you? I don’t think so. You read so much more than there really is.

By RS

March 31, 2005 04:54 PM | Link to this

Reggie, sorry about what happened to your brother; that is unnacceptable. But that’s not what I was referring to. I meant actual CRIMINALS, not innocent men & women who were wrongly convicted. If someone actually deserves prison time, yes, then I do indeed have the wisom & judgement to assess how that person should be dealt with

By Whiley

March 31, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry but if a man I didn’t know came into my home, I’m assuming he’s not there to clean the bathroom. I’ve been so tired I can’t see straight. But I darn sure wouldn’t ever walk into the wrong apartment & not know it !

sounds like your brother was drinking. Especially if he falls asleep in the bathroom !

IF a man I didn’t know came into my house & passed out in the bathroom, I will absolutely assume, especially if he’s high, he’s not there to play cards.

Protect yourself, ask questions later.

By AWIB

March 31, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

And you do not read enough.

If cheering on Whiley shows pro-movement on this and generates healthy prose; I will remove my comment.

By Reggie

March 31, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this

Thank you RS for your kind words. I know this case is somewhat of an anomaly but it does happen, that is why we don’t go around castrating and hanging people. That is why there is an appeals process. I believe there are judges out there that have the wisdom and judgment to know how to deal with these criminals but I don’t think all criminals are monsters (just like I don’t believe all men are evil/misogynist/rapist)

Thank you also AWIB, would really like to know a guy like you!! I enjoy your wit and apparent broad knowledge of literary references (I love Tom Robbins, and have yet to find many to discuss him with). I agree with your warning to Lozen, the pattern will be repeated if you don’t recognize your own hand in ANY failed relationship, abusive or not.

And after this exhausting day of arguing to no avail I believe your original name was appropriate, Angry Girls are Funny, or sad, or unwilling to make forward motion.

By Bruce

April 1, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this

Reggie,

If you will read my post I did say that there was a 2% margin of error. After working in the prison system for several years I think I have the, if nothing else, experience on the subject of rehabilitation programs. Not an expert mind you but I do have first hand knowledge. Just as there are cases where a person was wrongly convicted there are cases where someone wants to be rehabilitated. To me rape is worse than murder, because the vimtim is left with their pain for the rest of their lives.
As for judges having the wisdom and judgment, I would have to disagree there also. If that were true and you really believed that you would be at peace with your brothers incarceration. It was a judge that decided the evidence against him was enough to take it to trial.

By Lyrazel

April 1, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this

Thanks for answering my comments regarding our fabulous penal system. I work with abused retarded homeless so I hear some very different views of these luxury palaces the country has created. Prisons are also used to house the mentally ill, disturbed but not criminal. Since we are closing mental hospitals for indigent they end up on the street and then in jail. To be tossed in with the fray—say because of shoplifting food—well, we need reforms and I dont believe resorting to ancient tribal justice is an answer. Im not so liberal not to believe some of the people dont deserve life behind bars but I do feel America had enough money, once, to really do some good in lives BEFORE they committed crimes. Prohibiton does not work. Time to end the war on drugs. Imagine the revenues that whole tax base will generate by just legalizing marijuana. We learned in the 20s prohibition creates problems/gansters/better money than legit work/corruption. Yes, enough to provide rehab for junkies. But I also believe in legalizing prostitution to regulate it. Think of all the money gained there—and the safty factor of health services being bought by people who need it most. Most Americans are in denial sex workers have been with us since—but I am way way out there liberal.

How to be a good girl: Don’t complain about any wrong doings. Everything is beautiful & life is so grand. Don’t worry you’ll somehow be protected from the big bad monsters of the world. Just be a good girl & nothing bad will happen. All you have to do is keep that pretty smile on your face & make sure dinner is on the table on time. Remember boys don’t like girls that might make them look bad.

Whiley, I am curious about your archaic belief women wait around for men to take care of them. Sounds more like the legacy of 1930 than 2005. I am a firm believer that in this country you are limited only by your own willpower and determination, not by your sex. I know a woman who was down-on-the-street poor most of her life and now is a circuit court judge. Her triumps were self-made and not gained by any entitlements. I know many women like her who left work paths to become mothers and grandmothers and are the happiest people around—but got to success by their efforts. Takes a lot of work to raise rugrats and anklebiters, I give them credit because I never had the patience. Far too often the members of this society believe they are entitled to get—without effort—indeed its a modern myth aspired to by many youth of today being raised in the luxury of their parents efforts. Does having luxury equal less ambitious children? I dont know. I have also seen reverse, daughters and sons picking up the pieces after their junkie parents end up in jail to tend to brothers and sisters like all adults should. You are a great poster, Whiley and I always am interested in your comments, but that piece is degrading to all women, especially the ones like you who make something of themselves no thanks to no one. Happy Friday.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 08:20 AM | Link to this

Lyrazel I was being sarcastic ! :)

By Scalia

April 1, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this

Vince,

If you haven’t realized it yet, Americans are sheep. They are usually too lazy to do their own research, or question why things are going the way that they are. And my all time favorite: We don’t want to face reality. We want to live in our fantasy world, and pretend that none of the stuff outside exist. I do enjoy the way that Tom DeLay harped onto the Terri Shiavo case to deflect the invvestigation that he was going through. Or how Gary Condit and the girl that came up missing was quietly brushed under the rug. How about the Jeff Gannon story? Nobody cares about that. People are happy about the gas prices soaring (remember that we had years of cheap gas. It was bound to happen, one venter said recently.)

The AJC ran an article talking about the people that are getting rich off of our oil consumption. These people in Europe and the Middle East are making billions of dollars off of us. The Russian guy, that has Mafia ties, was one of them. They are building resorts and malls for the people in the middle east to spend money. Why isn’t anybody complaining? Can you believe that the prices of oil may get higher?

There was a good documentary on recently talking about the End of Suburbia if we run out of oil. (Hello? It is a non-renewable resource. It isn’t going to last forever.) The commute and sprawl of Atlanta will be null and void. We won’t live in Woodstock, and work in Atlanta. The mega houses will house more than one family. Wal-Mart will be over. How can they transport so much stuff without gas? Our train system is rubbish.

On a funny note, I thought about a reality show where people compete for gallons of gas instead of millions of dollars. Could you imagine it?

By Lyrazel

April 1, 2005 08:52 AM | Link to this

Ooooo….duh on me!

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 09:03 AM | Link to this

After catching up on the blog, it seems like no one really wants to talk about solutions; but just argue and blame people.

See you next week.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

DeltaX that’s not true at all !

Discussing the problems & getting frustrations out about how it affects everyone is the first step. Awareness.

I think there have been several good solutions posted here.

By Bruce

April 1, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this

DeltaX,

Well don’t just run away give us your soultions.

By Maria

April 1, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

As you two take on yet another marginal issue, I continue to wonder why the AJC gives you so much space. Your silly, over-the-top treatment of topics that are often, at best, fodder for the entertainment pages (“Does Martha deserve hisses or kisses?”)makes me wish your column inches could be given to someone, male or female, who has something useful and meaningful to say.

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

Really guys. This is not a new area for me and know a lot about it. No offence, but the frustrations others have exhibited on here are completely understandable.

One of the first things I do in couciling is state that the blame must stop. If this cannot happen, the couple/group is still “in the box,” and is not ready for healing. Not only this, but they will sabatoage the work of others.

This is good for some to vent, but the awareness to know when venting becomes blaming is not apparent here - and is now destructive to the progress some may want to make.

For example; Whiley, sarcasm has no place in a serious hurt filled area like this. I know you are mad and hurt, but it subverts your goals.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

For example; Whiley, sarcasm has no place in a serious hurt filled area like this.

Obviously you don’t read this blog much lol. Sarcasm is actually quite fitting considering a good number of women’s pain is being dismissed here. Some just don’t listen. They are easy to spot as soon as certain subjects are brought up.

That’s ok, we’re used to it. I still think there have been some good suggestions here.

And placing blame isn’t wrong. Wrong doers should always be made public. Call it like it is.

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

I hear you Whiley. You are happy with your results.

Take care guys.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this

Well, don’t just run away give us your soultions.

Sure, I did list a few in an older post above.

Most important, better family planning. Bad unprepared parents breed bad kids that grow up to be bad adults.

Did I mention I am a member of Planned Parenthood & support family planning research?

Just say no isn’t enough.

By J. Morris

April 1, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

Crystal, dear Crystal…sorry that you were wrong about the word limit. It did seem to be the foundation of so much of your vapid mockery this week.

Crystal, I have a challenge for you. Actually contribute to a discussion. Actually address the question. Refrain - just once - from your psuedo-wit and poorly-aimed barbs.

Just once…I want to see if you can, or if you are actually just a random phrase generator…kind of a conservative Steppford Wife mad-lib.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

Maria I completely agree with you. The topics each week are ridiculously stupid.

By Sandy

April 1, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

It’s hard to come up with solutions when we perceive the issues of violence as being so out of control, immediate, and dire. The knee jerk reaction is to use more violence to contain the problem, with notable suggestions like castration and physical retribution, and longer prison sentences. (I thought the latest deal on castration is that that does not work on sex offenders and may actually cause them to be more violent, but I’d have to research that).

Until we can understand what drives people to violence, and recognize that each of us has that potential, we’re quite unlikely to come up with any long-term solutions. My gut feeling is that fear plays a big role. Daniel Goleman wrote a book called Emotional Intelligence, and suggested that in some people’s brains short-circuit and they rush to violent reactions, not even comprehending that there might be other nonviolent solutions available. Perhaps it is a developmental stunting, from lack of good modeling, or exposure to violence as entertainment, as is rife in our society.

My gut tells me that fear and shame contribute to the short-circuiting, and when you look at the disintegration of our families, families enveloped in chaos, grief, many struggling to survive in the throes of addiction and such profound damage incurred early on, it really is no surprise that people will kill each other over a sandwich or a piece of cake.

Even with my own kids, when they do something dangerous, my fear kicks into gear for an immediate resolution. Even after the danger is averted, the fear may persist, resulting in yelling at an already frightened child. This is hardly the reaction I want to have, but sometimes the rational part of the human disappears at these critical moments.

Whiley has verbalized this frustration aptly: one cannot control another’s behavior. The intention of rape, sexual assault, or violence lies in the perpetrator, and the triggers are often completely unknown to the victim. Doing all we do to prevent assault and violence against our persons stunts our growth in ways, too. Asking someone who is scared, struggling to survive, and outraged to come up with a viable solution is as misplaced as my yelling at my kids when they do something dangerous out of ignorance: we blame the victims, because a permanent resolution to the terror at hand is not found.

It’s a terrifying thing to realize that we are all capable of great atrocities, and we try to separate ourselves from evil in all forms, not just deeds. We can no more do that than separate ourselves from other human attributes, such as love and survival. If we amputate any of these hunan qualities from our lives, we are no longer whole, and thus disintegrate. If you put this in terms of the yin and yang, together they are whole, creating a balance. Removing the opposite, dark from light, for instance, renders the other meaningless, because there is nothing to define it. Our president has asked us to separate ourselves from the evil of terror, but because this is an illusion, we have only perpetrated more evil in the form of prisoner abuse. We lose control of evil when we make it separate from ourselves.

On some spiritual level, we are asking, “What is the nature of good and evil?” One can answer, Good is clarity, inner calm, and contact with the self. Evil is inner turmoil, chaos, and I would add separation of the self.

For example, Scott Peterson is described by a forensic expert as being terrified that he would cease to exist when Laci had their child. This is incomprehensible to a nonpsychopathic person, but to him it was very real, triggering his most heinous and despicable act, borne out of survival and not hate. Coindcidentally, this same expert indicates that none of us is born this way, that it takes some horrible, unspeakable damage to a person’s psyche at a young age to have someone turn to this kind of evil. (Sadly, in this case it seems the damage was caused by his mother, who we must presumed is damaged herself.)

To add to the human dilemma, there are many levels of emotional and spritual enlightement, and we try to apply a punitive judiciary to the problem and ironically call it justice. The answers are not going to be found outside, but inside ourselves; we have a find the time and a safe space to address these first individually and then collectively, with dignity and respect and clarity of purpose before we will even get close to that we call justice or meaningful reform.

And to Terri and the Pope, words from the Indigo Girls: Secure yourself to heaven, hold on tight, the night has come, fasten up your earthly burdens, you have just begun… Namaste.

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Whiley, Nice to see positive input!

Really, there is not reflection of your last sentiments anywhere in the blog that I can find. But no matter, what you just said is the starting point and good stuff - families and raising of kids. Try to remember, these terrible people we refer to were once kids, and most got robbed of their childhood and then passed on what they were taught - taught directly or indirectly.

By whiley

April 1, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

SANDY LOVE YOUR POST !

I am curious why Scott Peterson’s father wasn’t equally responsible?

“(Sadly, in this case it seems the damage was caused by his mother, who we must presumed is damaged herself.) “

or did I read your post wrong? (that’s possible I still need my coffee)

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Thank you DeltaX :)

I suggested death penalty, long sentences, make prisoners pay for their own living expenses etc.

I don’t think most of us come from stable families lol. Why don’t a lot of abused kids NOT grow up to be murderers & child molesters? Seems the worst child molesters come from fine families.

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

You answered your own question Whiley.

If you think about what you said, yes we all have disfunction. Those that appear not to, generally are ignoring the pink elephant - and that is what causes the most serious of disorders.

So you are “right on” in your thinking, just put the parts together.

By Archie

April 1, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

The goal of these columns is to increase the readers and subscribers to the AJC which of course brings in more money. I look at the paper before I come to this page and although the topic is not exciting the readers of this column did digress into discussing women’s issues. Of course, we have to deal a couple of complainers and radicals that aren’t interested in any real solutions. I applaud many of the women that have spoken up for men and at the same time raised some good points about our country. I agree with Lyrazel that prostitution should be legal and the drug war should end as we know it. I have never understood why you can make all kinds of porn movies and you know the people aren’t doing it for free, yet the poor lady from the neighborhood gets locked up. I just think the structure of things is wrong and with the drug war there is no strong effort to keep the stuff from getting here even though we know where it’s coming from. To me it’s not being liberal just progressive enough to say we need to do something different. Things won’t change because of people so hardcore liberal or hardcore conservative that no solution is really sought. Whiley is a good example of someone hardcore that really does not want a solution and you have conservatives that are hardcore against universal healthcare but they will work night and day for one woman, to distract you from the 45 million that don’t have healthcare. Some of the 45 million will die as a direct cause of lack of healthcare. It is very difficult to publicly ask legalizing drugs and prostitution but at some point I hope we can get past any potential guilt and get on with it because sin will always be here. Might as well regulate it and use the money for good.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

I get it Archie, I’m not allowed to be angry.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

Sandy, what great insight. Glad that you are a Momma, and applying your knowledge into the most important thing—Our Future!

When you talk about Emotion Intelligence isn’t there a starting point, and isn’t that self awareness? (Have not read the book and am curious if this is so) Seems the person who “short-circuits” to anger, violent or not, has to be aware they are doing this in order to stop it. Which again comes from within.

Asking someone who is scared, struggling to survive, and outraged to come up with a viable solution is as misplaced as my yelling at my kids I agree with you Sandy, it is not a viable solution to yell at the Victim. But how does the Victim stop the processes that are in her? How does she stop being scared, how does she survive with happiness, how does she move past her outrage? I don’t know that any of us have all the answers, but with what seems to be the broad experiences in this group, I wonder how each individual has handled this place where, it seems, we must get past?

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

Whiley, the point is not that you’re not allowed to be angry.

The point is how long are you going to sit in the same place with out any movement?

Anger is a step of Grief, and from what I know (which is limited) we must get through the steps to truly HEAL. What is it that you Want Whiley?

Is the anger you feel your stopping point? Do you truly want to be doing this Chicken Little stuff 5 years from now, 10?
I personally understand that you are angry, I was there too.

The question you have to ask yourself is, what now?

By Jack

April 1, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

Archie - You want your healthcare to be the government’s responibility? What has the govt. done that it has not completely hosed up? Look at social security, medicare ETC. Sorry not for me. I do like the idea of legalized prostitution & an end to the drug war. It the govt could tax both maybe we wouldn’t be soaked so bad on tax day.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Reggie I’ve been movin, shakin, & doin my whole life ! lol

Maybe I should just give in & not care anymore. My mood would be better. I tend to absorb too much what I see. Feel other peoples pain & fear too much.

We should legalized marijuana so I am able to chill out more.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

So how do we promote better parenting and get these kids the help they need/deserve before they are too far gone?

This is what I struggle with. It seems that we would have to look at major changes in our govmt and get more money into social services hands. But to be sure it was not a buricratic waste, we need people with understanding and non-biased judgement working in them. The solutions like legalizing pot and prostitution would be fought with no avail - although I like them.

Cultural revolution? Who is with me?

(Whiley, glad to see your post with solutions. Really glad that we may be able to start a dialog! Being serious here.)

By Crystal

April 1, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

Well, I knew it was April Fool’s Day when J. Morris posted. Always enjoy a joyous contributor.

I love to post “normal” thoughts with no angst and torturous past to twist them. I am indeed fortunate, it would seem. But life always has its pit falls. Why list them, dwell in them and remain there? Move on.

So, may your day be foolish and spring showers bring flowers. (Just call me your happy lil’ Stepford wife and do it in less than 300 WORDS.)

By lozen

April 1, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

Whiley, have you realized yet that Reggie/Randy/ Zack/Norman/Terry are probably all the same psychopath? Not the real Norman who has apparently fled this blog but the coward posting under Norman’s name this week? I never believed the person posting was a female - as you pointed out yesterday it just sounded like a boy. But when he lost it again around 3pm yesterday with his insane rant at me that made no sense at all based on anything I’d said, I knew for sure who it was. I believe the story about the baby brother, who was found in the young womens’ apartment and got sent up the river, was probably about him. I’m sure he does have experience with our legal system! He is so full of rage toward women. He always cracks under pressure, can only write about four or five posts before he starts foaming at the mouth and going into his schizophrenic raving. This man is mentally ill and I hope he never gets out of prison. I wish they would call in his prison doctor and try a new medication because the one he’s on now just isn’t working.

By Tony

April 1, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

A few things Michael, No I’m fine thanks. I don’t believe I took a beating, yet alone intellectual beating. Our President doesn’t need defending, certainly not by me. A lot of people have tried to discredit his Military Record with false accusations. Your just another on a long list of disgruntled Americans. I’m not exactly peachy with all that is going on, but I’m more realistic about current events and understand there’s more to it than just “one man”. Take the War for example, Congress Michael, but I’m sure you know that, but your problem is you appear to be driven by hate. You need to get over it, concentrate on making the future better. You have a vote and a voice, convince more to believe as you and maybe changes can be made to better suit your ideology. In the meantime, you need to accept the past, (the War and all). Try looking at the good that is coming about in Iraq. It should ease some of your unhappiness.

As far as “liberal bias” well what can I say. If your not happy with Bozell, again your choice. The facts he presented in his book is not what you want to hear, so he’s biased. Go figure. As far as FOX News, pretty fair, they report, you decide. You continue to make assumptions about me though Michael, on where I get my information.

You appear to be a pretty smart guy, but you also appear to be extremely resentful. Live your life Michael, love your family, try going to church, maybe you can find peace. My peace I give to you.

Gotta go, busy busy busy. May God Bless All.

By Archie

April 1, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

Whiley you are allowed to be angry, happy, sad, or indifferent but at some point anger should give way to something else. As many people here that have acknowledged that men are more violent it is time move on to another statement. There is no awareness gained by male-bashing. Heck, I am just as afraid of some young men as anybody and I am disgusted with the behavior of these gang people. I propose that gang members be treated as terrorists but in my hometown some law enforcement refused to acknowledge the existence of gangs so I must move from complaining to writing someone that can make a law to my satisfaction. I have already complained. I procrastinate like everyone else but I have signed petitions and written letters at times. I sometimes wonder if Shanti and Dianne aren’t using pseudo-names to write in this forum because some of these female opinions seem similar to what the ladies have written in other columns.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

Whiley, be angry as long as you need to be and pay no attention to Reggie/Randy/Zack/false Norman/Terry or whatever that mental patient’s real name is. Thich Nhat Hhan works with all kinds of people and he says you cannot work with anyone until you really understand their suffering. So many people just want you to shut up about your pain because they’ve buried their own and don’t want anyone to remind them of it. “Just think about all the others in this world who are really having a rough time! Now aren’t you ashamed of being so self-centered?” This was one of the things thrown at you yesterday to shut you up! If you need to be angry for months to get through it, then do that. You will move when the time is right for you. I want to hear what you have to say. If there are people who don’t want to hear your anger and pain, F—- em if they can’t take a joke!

By Michael

April 1, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

Hello Morris,

Don’t hold your breath regarding Chrystal. I am sure that she will never venture out and try to defend a statement, or attempt to justify the policies of our politically illiterate president, whom she supports. But she’s harmless enough.

It is interesting how these comments never remain focussed on the original subject and form an excuse to hive off into religion or the usual conservative diatribes. Unfortunately, what we see here seems to representative of our political culture as it comports so well with the findings of social scientists.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 11:16 AM | Link to this

lozen, Why do you only stir things up? Create anger? Create distrust?

None of the posting you have put on here have furthered the topic. It has debased the womens movement in this forum.

Are you capable of anything else?

I do not believe you are a woman, you may have a v****, but you are not a woman. A women would not push another woman further into despare and promote the breakdown of such an important cause.

By Archie

April 1, 2005 11:28 AM | Link to this

Jack, the government is made up of people not aliens. The government is you and me. People that work for government have degrees, etc. Our tax money could pay the doctors,etc. This is done in other countries and since we’re smarter(sarcasm) we can do things better here. Every single person will get sick and die so why should we the people be without healthcare. The government has done plenty of things well, our federal highways,military,etc. Limbaugh makes a good living talking about government as if its the devil but he supports Bush and guess what office Bush holds. I mentioned hardcore conservatives a few posts ago and hardcore liberals which is why in the richest country in the history of mankind you have almost a fourth of the people without healthcare. I can watch any kind of porn movie I want when I want but I better not pay someone directly for sex because of some value system that I don’t understand. I mean how can Jenna Jameson make millions and little lady on the street get arrested for doing the same thing. It is difficult to discuss certain things but when I read about Jenna J in a business magazine that changed my thoughts.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

AWIB, AngryGrlsAreFunny, or whatever name you choose today, You’re Randy’s cell mate right?

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Sweetheart, Lozen, you might want to come down from the rafters. I assure you that I am a woman. I know that we maybe of different generations, and we may have different experiences but as surely as you are, I am a girl.

I am sorry if my post offended you but I stand by it. You are not taking any accountability for your own actions, you are constantly man bashing, being sarcastic and cheering Whiley on when she name calls and generally acts childish. You seem as if you feel entitled to something you are not getting or have not gotten out of life.

Try answering my questions after your post:

Why do you need Salvation?

Why do you believe you deserve protection, you quite clearly don’t want to do anything to earn it? I think it is difficult for anyone to listen while they are being universally criticized (as you did me when you thought I was a guy). As for impossible to understand what we need? Well that comes down to communication, don’t you agree?

Second, in reference to my Brother. Who is not me by any account (don’t think the palaces of pleasure that you think are prisons are, are online to the AJC). You don’t know the full story, and to make an attack like this shows mental weakness on your part. I believe until an exhausting day of arguing with what I believe to be angry little girls, I constantly tried to get to some solutions, unlike others.

And so I will end with your own words Lozen: Time for your pill babe. You are just too hysterical for words.

By Bruce

April 1, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Sandy,

Although I have come to respect your opinion I found your last post a bit naive. While you are looking to your inner self for enlightenment there are those that are looking to take advantage of you. They are called criminals. These people do not want your enlightenment or inner awareness. Therefore in the meantime we must protect scoiety from these people. I truly believe if the punishment fit the crime there would be less crime. And yes sometimes that calls for exteme measures.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

Sandy, as always your post is wise and wonderful. Asking someone who is scared, struggling to survive, and outraged to come up with a viable solution is as misplaced as my yelling at my kids. You contribute so much humanity and understanding to this blog.

By J. Morris

April 1, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

Crystal = Blanche DuBois.

After Belle Rive.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

More angst lozen? Keep going and show us all how articulate you are. If you are in fact old enough to be my grandmother, you have wasted your time on this planet filling your head with crap.

Archie, Curious what you mean by your thoughts changed when reading about Jenna.

By Jack

April 1, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Archie - Socialized medicine is not the answer. it takes months to get non-emergency surgery in Canada. Is that what you want here? As far as I know, hospitals cannot turn anyone away if they are unable to pay the bill. That drains the system enough. Every been to the VA hospital? Visit one and then tell me you want govt provided health care.

By norman

April 1, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

lozen, the only psychopath around here is you. You blame men for your problems, you blame the religious organizations for your problems. Apparently it’s everybodies fault but your own. You had absolutely no responsibility in your own failings. The first way to correct a problem lozen is to admit you have one. YOU HAVE ALOT! But as you said FK’em right? Well FK you too! By the way, did you ever consider there MAY be more than one “Norman”? You musta missed that one…probably blame that on someone else too.

By RS

April 1, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Again, Bruce, you’ve hit the nail right on the head. When I was a kid, there was much less crime. The laws were also tougher on criminals & we didn’t have the profusion of touchy-feely political correctness & misguided “sensitivity” we do now..Coincidence? I think not. WHY do people actually think (?!?!) we need to reward evil behaviour? Rapists, murderers & child molesters don’t deserve to be coddled; were their victims given such consideration?

By lozen

April 1, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Reggie/Randy/Norman/whatever, you are going to be “hurt” because I criticize you? This is what you posted about me yesterday during your sick rant: I think I agree with Norman “Look at Lozen’s posts. She is an angry bitter woman who didn’t get in life what she felt SHE DESERVED. Lozen, never takes responsibility for how her own life ended up, it was always SOMEONE ELSE’S FAULT!â€? Especially after your last post Lozen: “They can’t save us. They can’t protect us. They can’t solve our problems. They can’t really help us in so many ways. Most men can’t listen to the important things we have to say - we need other women for that. It is very hard for the majority of men to hear women, and impossible for them to understand what we need.â€? Why do you need Salvation? Why do you believe you deserve protection, you quite clearly don’t want to do anything to earn it? I think it is difficult for anyone to listen while they are being universally criticized (as you did me when you thought I was a guy). As for impossible to understand what we need? Well that comes down to communication, and babies who haven’t learned to speak yet aren’t usually capable of a clear discourse of their needs. I believe you give away your own power, and I don’t see that changing because you are unwilling take responsibility for your own actions, words and attitudes. Where did you get all this crap? I didn’t say I needed salvation. I said we have to do it ourselves and you interpret that to mean I take no responsibility for myself? Of course you agree with yourself. You posted it in the first place under Norman’s name. You’re too much of a wimp to post under names you’ve used in the past because over and over people on this blog show you up to be the lunatic you are. You’re mental illness always shows through no matter what name you use.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

Lozen,

Waiting for your intellectual and insightful answers to ANY of the questions ask you.

Also one more? Do you currently have a romantic partner?

By Jack

April 1, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

Ok get this. Before a convict is given a lethal injection, they rub alcohol on the site so their won’t be infection, then they give them a shot to knock them out, then after they’re out they get the lethal one. Too bad the victims didn’t get to go like that>

By Sandy

April 1, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

Whiley, I don’t know much more about the Peterson case and don’t know whether his father was absent, dead, or what. This does highlight one of the huge pressures of motherhood, that is the pressure not to raise criminals. There is so much emphasis placed on mother-child bonding, that the mother seems to be the lightening rod for criticism and blame; ironically, the father might not be around by choice or circumstance, so this burden, along with food, clothing, shelter, love, discilpline, etc., rests on the mother.

And, Reggie, this ties in with the whole emotional intelligence thing because we all need some time to gather our thoughts and be calm, to think before we apply our love, discipline, etc., in the midst of the sturm and drang that is American Motherhood. The individual has to have the initial spark and desire of self-actualization, but the outside world needs to recognize this as a good thing and help make it happen. For many people this is a pipe dream, which brings me back to the original post, that parents, not just mothers, could use some support to support our families.

In our current sociopolitical state, this is not likely to happen because our government is wreaking havoc on the social programs that actually assist people in self-actualization, cutting medical care for those who cannot afford it, and hamstringing social security. Issues of affordable and decent daycare, so families can leave their children safely while the find jobs that actually carry needed health care benefits; creation of jobs with benefits, or better yet, a new and innovative national health care plan the likes of which the world has never seen; affordable counseling for familes, affordable housing, renewed interest in our public education system, etc., are all ways that families would benefit. Instead, our American dollars are being spent to fund both sides of a senseless war while we tear our own democracy to pieces supporting regimes that treat their women worse than our own…

Imagine all the positive energy that could be freed up with a national health care system that invested in the health of it’s citizens and believed it to be a basic human right, truly pro-life, from cradle to grave. Good healthcare, and especially mental health care could go a long way in preventing the emotional and social stunting we have talked about. A wholistic approach to caring for the whole person, body, mind, and spirit, because separation from these things creates chaos and disintegration, too.

I’m sure this post will result in the usual scoffing by the naysayers who say that our government would only screw this up too, so what’s the point, etc., etc. (You may say I’m a dreamer…)

I work as a medical transcriptionist. I just typed a report of a 7-year-old child who has anger manangement problems and suicidal ideation. He has a caring, intact, and devoted family who are overwhelmed and scared. Intensive counseling, respite care, very, very close monitoring of medications, etc, might prevent this kid from becoming and creating more heartbreaking statistics.

The current state of our government tells him and his family that they’re too expensive. But if this kid explodes, we all pay the price. We’re paying it now in Red Lake and Abu Ghraib; in Columbine; we pay it everyday throughout our cities and schools. Then we brag that we have the best health care and educational system in the world. By what possible measure? Tell the grieving to find solace in capitalism, free markets, and Humvees. And tell them to quit feeling sorry for themselves… there’s a war on.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

AWIB, AngryGrlsAreFunny, Boscoe or whoever you are, Ha, ha, ha, ha! You must have mistaken me for someone who gives a rat’s a— about your opinion. You are one of those men who wants to tell “the girls” what their problems are and how you can solve them if we’d just shut up. You refused to listen to anything women said on this blog because you so desperately wanted to get the conversation back to all you are doing for us “girls”.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

Lozen, just to put your sweet heart to rest, the first and only time I have ever posted on this or any other AJC board was yesterday. Why do you waste so much time with this game of who-done-it?

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

lozen You clearly post: (Speaking of men)They can’t save us. They can’t protect us. They can’t solve our problems. They can’t really help us in so many ways.

You feel you need saving. Still waiting for that shining armour guy? He has passed you up for someone who chooses to take responsibility for themself.

You got the guy who accepts broken angry people, they abusive a*. You realized this and instead of changing, went cold.

By RS

April 1, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Jack, that is EXACTLY the point that I (& probably Bruce) was trying to get across. Aside from the glaringly obvious fact that our judicial system coddles violent criminals & lambastes innocent victims, can you see the irony in rubbing the injection site with alchohol to prevent infection?? MOOT POINT! The piece of scum will be dead (YAY!) in minutes. Good grief…

By DeltaX

April 1, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

Well, At the request of some I posted some direction of solutions, but as I stated you all are too angry to talk.

Lozen, Although harsher than I would like to see, Reggie and AWIB have many times over asked what you would like to talk about and even backed up a step or two for you. You have shown no similar concern or respect and ignored their actions that you have requested.

Good luck you all, but my professional opinion is that one-on-one counceling is where you are at, and not an action group of what to do about the problem. I mean this in the most sincere tone possible and wish you all luck.

peace.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

I was speaking to Whiley in the post about men not being able to do anything for us. She had no problem with it. Let me be a little clearer: You cannot do anything for women, you cannot protect women, you cannot solve our problems, you cannot help us. No, I was obviously saying (I think anyone who actually read my post would get it) that I don’t need saving. Of course, there is no way to understand or respond to the last line of your 12:06 post because it just doesn’t make any sense like your previous one about things (that nobody’s ever heard of, aren’t you so smart)with two p*** that fight and whoever wins becomes the male and the loser becomes the female and that’s where oppression begins! And you claim to have several degrees and minors - bull.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

JMorris, Jack, Sandy, I would like some sane person’s reaction to this. When did AWIB or Reggie back up and say they were actually willing to listen to anything? They have both attacked me personally first and I had enough of it and got angry. All I’ve heard is pretense and defensiveness from both of them. Am I so off the wall here in thinking both of them are hostile toward women no matter what kind of mask they choose to wear at moments?

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

And you feel you are saving Whiley by promoting her anger? There was some beginings of conversation before you posted foolish angry prose.

Sorry you do not understand the more sophisticated posts. Not your fault I am sure. And trying to belittle others to make up for your shortcoming is expected.

You ARE the bitter devorcee that will spread anger. You have no other pupose on here so far but to spread.

Go ahead and re-read the blogs - I do each night with my wife, and we openly discuss where I could use improvment (we find it fun too). She wholey agrees that you do not want to work. She also stated I was inflamitory at time, which I agree; and addressed on the blog - with you. After the second night though, she said that you two were simple insain and please do not let you two anger me;)hehe.

By Lyrazel

April 1, 2005 12:40 PM | Link to this

Lozen, keep saying what you want. Akeya, I miss your opinions. And to all of you whose opinion I disagree with, keep on talking! Love it when people begin to think—and contrary opinions seem to spur folks—if only we could spur folk into positive action instead of flapping the gums…. BTW has anyone been following the MUCH MORE IMPORTANT story about WMDs being exaggerated and data flawed before we committed troops to Iraq….seems some folk at the top REALLY WANTED WAR…thanks Fearless Leader…1500 dead because of false information…when do our troops come home from your war on oil-rich nations? Who are the terrorists…and WITH ALL THE MONEY SPENT where is Osama? Not Omarosa…we know where she is…. sure I can b***…paid taxes and voted…wave my flag! Lets bring our Troops HOME!

By Jack

April 1, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

Lozen - I think AWIB is probably Randy. AWIB isn’t as venomous as Zack. Don’t know what to think about Reggie. Don’t let them make you mad Lozen. That is what they want. Go ahead and attack me guys. I don’t care!

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

This is what I wrote: *By AWIB

March 31, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

Agreed lozen, I can do that. I do not operate on the basis that I cannot change. It is all data until processed and I have no problem with looking at what I can do better in difficult situations. And your complaints about tone and verbiage are noted.*

I also have asked repeatedly what it is you want “understood,” but you kept bashing or rev’ing up Whiley.

For the record, MANY GUYS ARE SCREWED UP. I agree totally, and am glad I do not have to weed through them.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

AWIB, You must have mistaken me for someone who gives a rat’s a** about your wife’s opinion too!

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

lozen And here is the other post (you never replied constructively): *By AWIB

March 31, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

I value your opinion lozen, So I will repost: I want to hear what have to say, aside from issues with my use of the term girls, but on the topic of male violence and its possible solutions.

I am truely intersested in what you have to say. *

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

No. I have mistaken you with someone who cares about the issue of men being violent and what to do about the trend.

By Scott

April 1, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

Wow! I missed a lot being out of pocket for a day!

Whiley - to answer your questions about statistics, no I can’t give you records of how many violent crimes will be committed today, that would be predicting and unfortunately I can’t do that. (We aren’t quite to the Minority Report days just yet) I probably could tell you how many people are going to be released today but that would be an exhaustive search.

As far as castration, the Russian police/corrections tried that out for a period of time. Unfortunately, especially in the case of child molestors, it does little to nothing to deter the urge in them. It just doesn’t work. I have a sneaking suspiscion a bullet to the skull would work (and ammo is much cheaper than housing them for any number of years) Chinia at one time had a policy that rapists, murderers were executed by firing squad. To add insult to injury, in a manner of speaking, the offender’s “estate” was then charged for the quartering of the soldiers charged with being the firing squad and even for the ammunition. Interesting huh?

While I agree that violence against anyone should be a last resort, sometimes it is the only resort. In the case of violent criminals, as my grandfather used to say, some people just need an a** whoopin’

By Randy

April 1, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

It ain’t me. I haven’t even been on this site for 3 or 4 days.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Jack, is there a question you would like to ask, I am totally open to any.

Lozen, I am willing to listen to any helpful articulate point you have about the betterment of women or women’s issues.

There is a lot of hostility in your tone toward men, (i.e. women’s history is devalued simply because it’s women’s history. It is not important because it is her-story) which I personally do not share. Not because I have not encountered some evil men but because I will not carry the flag of man-hating-suffer.

I am sorry that you feel I have not listened. Again, at some point you must take account of your own actions, As AWIB pointed out, you outright encouraged Whiley to stay angry and not discuss things.

Let me formally apologize for criticizing you. I know I find it hard to hear criticism sometimes to. I am open to discussion and would like to start here, would you?

By lozen

April 1, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

AWIB/Randy & Reggie/Zack or whatever, You moved this conversation from general discussion onto a personal level by attacking me personally. I don’t turn the other cheek.

By Bruce

April 1, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

The poster posting as Norman can’t be the real Norman. He hasn’t made any comments about the Pope yet.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

But that has been our point the whole time lozen - you have no ability of reflection and must blame absolutely.

That is fine, but get out of the way then for those who want to keep moving and growing.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

Your Silence is deafening.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Reggie, My email address is coded in the text below using the TR info discussed earlier. If you are into TR you will catch my drift.

Give me an email and we will meet up sometime in another blog (or this one if we need our dose of anger and blame)

You are an incredible sounding girl (ahhh - the taboo word) - I am sure your boyfriend is proud as hell of your intellect and awareness;) We will have lots to laugh about one day;)

You take care and keep up the good work.

By Crystal

April 1, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

Well, the happy twosome, Mikey & Morris, are back.

Michael, you can remove your Kerry-Edwards bumper sticker now. They lost. Have you heard the latest Democratic news? Martha Stewart for president and Jane Fonda for VICE-president. I know they will get your full support.

And Michael, please try to spell my name correctly. Morris does even though it has two syllables.

By Sandy

April 1, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

Hate to resort to this, but did anyone watch Dr. Phil yesterday? He was dealing with a woman with an anger management problem and a unusually small a* that did not turn her husband on, but that’s another story, (though it partially explains why she was angry…) He talked about what causes anger, usually fear, and when we are gripped by anger we are at our weakest and least effective as human beings. To resolve the anger we have to admit that we are afraid and open up to discover what we are afraid of. This perpetutes the vulnerability temporarily, but is necessary for for resolution and healing to occur. In turn, the person with whom we are angry must refrain from hurting us further, so as not to inflict more damage and defensiveness. This is true committment and intimacy, whether with a partner or stranger. It, like everything else, is a balancing act and requires some personal accountability and restraint, and devotion to the greater good.

The hostility in this blog is a prime example.

Words have power. I feel it’s best to think twice before hitting the send/post key. While it makes the threads more difficult to read, it may be better than pointing word-fueled negative energy at someone who is already not functioning at peak.

Enjoy your respective weekends…

By lozen

April 1, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

And AWIB just before you posted that you wanted to hear my opinion, just not about you using the term “girl” I had posted this:

The point I am trying to make is that females are denigrated in so many ways (some very unconscious ways) in a patriarchal culture. Semantics is very important. It is most basic, what we call things. Calling 62 year old women “girls� is one way of trivializing females, just as calling black men “boys� is a way of trivializing black men in a rascist culture. But, rather than listen to what we try to tell you and trying to understand and taking it seriously, you brush us off as if it were so trivial - making a mountain out of a mole hill! Reggie, Bruce, Angry, you are telling us something we find offensive is absolutely unimportant. How can you talk about ending male violence when you refuse to listen to what women have to say? I think these natives who take offense at being called “injuns� and “squaws� are making a mountain out of a mole hill don’t you Bruce? So why should we listen to anything they say? We’re just going to get defensive and tell them they’re overreacting! See any similarities there with the way women are treated when they’re raped? It’s a logical outcome of the attitude.

Thank you so very much for being so reflective and taking what I say so seriously! I can tell you want to hear what I have to say. You want to talk but only about what you want to talk about.

By Jack

April 1, 2005 01:41 PM | Link to this

Wonder how hard it was for Dr. Phil’s wife to pry his lips off of Oprah’s butt. (paid off for him though)

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

lozen, I tried to communicate with you.

Get out of the way of progress and stop inhibeting it.

By Jack

April 1, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Yeah, he can spell.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

What I cannot wrap my head around: The problem is systemic and multifaceted, so: How do we begin to overhaul this govmt when there are so many people with adgendas? There seems to have to be an awakening or something, but that seems lofty.

Take the original framework and rebuild the govmt? That seems riddled with prople second guessing what was actually meant.

Input?

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Lozen,

I did read/listen to that post. I just simply have a different opinion. That is why I asked why you are so upset about the semantics of ‘girl’. I understand your point. You think semantics are important and that calling someone a girl is degrading. The reason why I don’t think it is degrading is because any female was/is a girl. We should not be allowing anything that is associated with femininity to become derogatory. I LOVE BEING A GIRL!! It makes life fun, and the world wondrous, to keep the child alive inside.

Sometimes when people disagree with you it is not only because you a woman. My opinion, as a woman to a woman, was that you are over reacting to a non-negative word. I am sorry that we disagree, but I thought that is why we are all here; to talk about things.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

AWIB, Thanks for the fun savenger hunt, and the nice compliment :-D Made my day!! Hope we have lots and lots to laugh about one day!

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Yeah. Quick typing gets me everytime. Hate that it dumbs down the posts, but way it goes.

Sorry ‘bout that.

By Vince

April 1, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

Hey Scalia-Thank you for the support. I, in fact, have asked about Jeff Gannon numerous times, but I don’t think anybody even knows the name enough to understand why I ask. Isn’t that a scream?

What on earth is happening on this board? Why is the question at hand being left unanswered?

If you will turn to Chapter 9 in your textbooks, we’ll start there.

Discussion of inequalities between similiar job roles amoung coexisting opposite genders resulting in a thirty percent average in salary compensation, with the higher salary being unquestionably given to the male gender, is not tolerated, allowed, and is considered a cross cultural terrorist trait.

In order to maintain a more perfect union, the following American responses are not only allowed, but encouraged: Quickly change the topic to something nobody will agree upon: Rape is a good one. Accuse anyone who dares ask such questions of being a terrorist. If the person in question is a woman, ask her if she has PMS. They hate that. Focus on biblical passages that confirm the presence of a p*** automatically justifies higher salaries.

Tomorrow’s lesson was going to be on Jeff Gannon, but there’s no research material. So, instead, we’ll talk about lettuce and how that leafy creation will eventually lead to gay marriage, which will cause our children to get body rashes, which will raise insurance premiums, which will discourage spending money on family vacations, which will lead to divorce and the children resorting to drugsl.

By Jack

April 1, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

Vince you forgot to mention Sponge Bob.

By Scott

April 1, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

Vince - heheheh point taken…a little bit of a rant, but humorous, and a good point

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

WELL my ! I leave for a while to run to Walmart & look how busy everyone has been ! lol I’m about to give up again like I always end up doing. The difference in my ranting now & back when I was younger is, a good number of you guys are actually listening now. And you’ll probably end up influencing a few cave men for the better. So all is not lost or impossible.

Hasn’t this week been fun though? No religious arguments!

We can save it for next week, the Pope isn’t doing so well. He refused continual feeding tubes. (ironic isn’t it?)

lozen keep up the good fight. :)

By Michael

April 1, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Tony,

Pretty much what I expected. No exactly what I accepted, more ad hominem irrelevance, the patronizing tone that the religious so often love to adopt towards others, and not a single logical response to a thing that I said. But that’s fine, no harm done. (Though you sounded pretty angry yourself with your “Go to Europe” silliness.)

Being a non-believer I prefer group bike rides on Sunday mornings to religion. Its influence, as we saw last week, is increasingly one of the contributors to the nation’s problems.

That’s also another one of the attractive features of Europe (where you want to consign all liberals)its sensible secularism. I looking forward to going back this summer. Traveling through Sweden and Norway—now that makes me happy. You might try it Tony, as did a conservative engineer I know, he almost suffered an ideological breakdown when he saw how much better things are there, Fox propaganda to the contrary.

Besides, they have more tall, beautiful women than any place one can find. I’ll take that over church any day!

By vince

April 1, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

Hi Jack:

Yes, I forgot all about SpongeBob. But, the last time I referenced him, his legal team almost burned down my fish tank.

On the side, Bush defended his re-election campaign platforms today by saying all life is precious, abortion is wrong, and that he got more votes than Kohn Jerry.

Kleperflek Grout, of The Virginian Virgin Daily, asked Bush this morning, “Mr. President, why did that poor woman in Florida not get any help from the federal government? Don’t you stand for the right to life, individual civil liberties-?”

Bush replied, “I said I am against abortion. A fetus is not given the choice for a living will or not, so they have civil rights. Adults have no civil rights if they are dumb.”

By Jack

April 1, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Church is really in your heart. Beautiful women are everywhere.

By Jack

April 1, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

George W is quite the public speaker.

By Scott

April 1, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Whiley - glad to see you’re back…I did answer some of your questions, but I imagine you’ll have to scroll back quite a bit!

By Jack

April 1, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

Scott - Didn’t you say you were in law enforcement? Police and firefighters do not get near enough pay for what they do. They should take money from the pompous politicians and give you folks more…and teachers too. (I voluteered to sub. for my son’s 5th grade class of 28 students, teachers don’t make enough either!)

By Gina

April 1, 2005 02:45 PM | Link to this

Women in Georgia are gaining more rights. They now have the right to financially support their children. House Bill 221 was passed yesterday. It is a child support bill that uses the income of “both” parents when setting the child support amount. For decades, the child support was based on the “Gross” income of the non-custodial parent (usually the father) using a range of percentages (17-23% for one child). The non-custodial parent usually has to pay medical, dental and half of all uncovered medical costs. Child support alone can equal up to 40-45% of a person’s net pay.

So Ladies, now we are in line with most of the states in the country. The former guidelines were put in place when there was a breadwinner of the family and the mother stayed at home. Now with two parent incomes, Georgia is finally moving into the 21st century.

It is so funny, now the Women’s groups are protesting the changes that were brought about due to the cry for financial independence.

By Vince

April 1, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

Hey Gina,

Not sure if you’ve seen my postings, but I am on your side. That said, is House Bill 221 really a better deal for women? If in the past, the non custodial parent’s income was the sole criteria, and the non custodial parent had no track record of employment and/or made less than the woman, then isn’t House Bill 221 now letting these lazy bum father’s more off the hook?

By Archie

April 1, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

AWIB, my opinion of legalization changed because I saw all the money that this Jenna person was making. Jenna has made millions having sex so I wonder why not open that opportunity to other women that don’t have the resources that Jenna has. I look at it like comparing a franchise restaurant to a restaurant that may not have good air-conditioning but yet it still has good,clean, food. Some people do their best with what they have. I do not want the sex profession for my female relatives but if they were to engage I wouldn’t want them locked up when I know someone like Jenna J is making millions doing the same thing. I realize this idea is radical but with the brainpower in this country things could be fixed. We don’t fix things because of religion or politics. Someone talked about Canada but we don’t have to do things exactly like Canada. Our problem is we don’t want to try to anything that doesn’t fit our politics because that would mean we lost. A lot of problems described by Jack could be avoided by changing the SOP. My thing about universal care involves how we pay not how we administer it. The main issue is how these doctors,etc get paid. Again government is not an alien it is you and me. If it’s not efficent it can be changed.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this

The measly $300 or so dollars a month in child support doesn’t even cover the grocery bill to feed kids.

It’s a lot more expensive & 10 times more work to be the single mom with custody.

I really don’t see why most dad’s complain.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Alright. I was mainly just curious cause you said it changed your mind, yet I did not know what you thought before reading it and wanted to understand your process.

I agree with you that we could change the govmt, but there are so many people at odds…I find myself thinking it would tear this country apart if we did try such a thing.

Vince, The new law just takes any money the non-custodial parent is making into the equation. It really is not fair to the guys who do pay to have it come from their gross income, still is taxed, is non-regulated (can be used for anything legal - booze, cigs, lotto, etc and that is legal), and is non-taxable for the receiver.

It is not to help those who are deadbeats, but those who are not.

Not quite fair my friend pays out 1/4 of his net income, while she makes $65k.

By Gina

April 1, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Vince, the new law makes women accountable for their children as well as the father. When a woman makes just as much as her former partner, why shouldn’t she share in the expenses? It stops the children from being a cash prize.

By Gina

April 1, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Whiley,

Most of the people I know are paying anywhere from 1400 - 2500 a month for one or two children.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

AWIB does your friend have any custody of the kids?

By Gina

April 1, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Any they have the children up to 40% of the time…

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

1400 - 2500 a month

WHAT?????!!! Where in the world do you live????

That’s a lot.

My best friend with 2 children doesn’t get anything close to that.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

When you have full custody of the kids, a woman pays more than her fair share, as well as all the work.

I thought when custody was 50-50,(weekday shared custody too) that it cancelled out most of the child support. (I’m talking mostly when the ex wife can’t work/didn’t work to raise kids, or if she works but makes very low wages)

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

did my last post make sense? I just read it & it doesn’t lol

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Whiley, They share custody.

Two of my ex-gf’s had one child each (sole custody) and one got $2k a month, the other $2.4k. They both also had jobs that paid 45k and 55k each.

I know this is not the rule, except for middle to upper white males. In this demographic, they have no rights - when dealing with divorce.

Read on: In divorce, 75% of divorces are instigated by women; 90% of divorces involving children result in the Mom getting full custody. The percentage disparity increases when children are involved. When asked why they were filing for divorce, none of the top 5 reasons listed abuse or infidelity; reasons were “we’ve grown apart” “doesn’t meet my needs” “irreconcilable differences” etc. The woman gets full custody, over-inflated child support, usually the house and half his retirement benefits, even when she’s leaving the marriage because she finally found “Mr. Right.”

By Jack

April 1, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

I’m glad I have no experience in divorce. When my children were in school, they said they felt weird because they were the only ones in their class with only 1 set of parents. This is sad. When I was young, the reverse was true. I sound just like my Dad when i catch myself saying that society is going down hill fast!

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

Jack, I hope this: That the increase in divorce is due to religion/culture relaxing a bit, which is good, because people need to stay together for the right reasons, not bc an institution tells them they have to. Maybe as we move from these false forces we will discover the integrety in making sane adult decisions and sticking to them.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

75% of divorces are instigated by women?// are they neglected or abused women?

When asked why they were filing for divorce, none of the top 5 reasons listed abuse or infidelity; reasons were “we’ve grown apartâ€? “doesn’t meet my needsâ€? “irreconcilable differencesâ€? etc.// Which is much easier to say than “he drinks too much, completely ignores me & the kids, never helps out at home & is away too much. I’m sure he is sleeping with a co-worker etc?

The woman gets full custody, over-inflated child support, usually the house and half his retirement benefits, even when she’s leaving the marriage because she finally found “Mr. Right.�//

Are you talking about women on TV? Because i’ve never known women like that. Where do they live because I’m hanging out with the wrong people then.

By Scott

April 1, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Jack - I appreciate the sentiment, but I am not holding my breath…most counties seem to regard public safety personnel as a neccessary evil rather than an essential function

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

I know I do not know everybody in the world. But of ALL the middle class divorced white women I have dated; they all had it good.

Heck, my sister (verbal abuse here - admittedly on both sides) upon jointly deciding to attend counceling after a brief “break” she: moved out of her house to an 3br apt, left him with the 4 kids, he paid the rent for her, she got a job and took it easy as she found herself (meanwhile I was helping with the kids a lot and trying to keep them straight), she decided she did not want to work it out after her year - moved into the house, took it and the kids in the divorce, kept her job, and gets 1.5k for each (one just graduated, so three x that amount as of this year).

Understand that we need to end all unjust trends. They do not have to get paramount before we act. This in no way justifies other wrongs in the world. The ropes that bind one, bind us all.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 04:24 PM | Link to this

AWIB, or whatever, what were the professions of the two “girlfriends” you mention? Did they live in Athens, too?

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Whiley, It seems, and I may be wrong, that you have not gone through a divorce. There are specific reasons you get to choose when you file. And if you are going to do something as drastic as divorce it is not usually when you are at your most gracious point. “He drinks too much” falls under substance abuse. “Completely ignores me & the kids, never helps out at home & is away too much” MIGHT be listed as irreconcilable differences, but usually if the woman is angry (which in this specific situation she has a right to be) it is listed as Abuse. “I’m sure he is sleeping with a co-worker” is listed as Adultery. This was AWIB’s point: “none of the top 5 reasons listed abuse or infidelity”

Also, you keep asking people where they live, but when I asked you where you lived (b/c it sounded very dangerous) you ignore the question?

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

They both are long time SBOs.

Would not feel comfortable giving more info. Between the business types and small city, they could be found easily; and that would violate their privacy.

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

Also, you keep asking people where they live, but when I asked you where you lived (b/c it sounded very dangerous) you ignore the question?

I wasn’t serious lol

I was divorced a long time ago. Things have changed since then.

By lozen

April 1, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

Sorry, don’t know what SBO’s are. could you enlighten me?

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

What are SBO’s?

By Crystal

April 1, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this

There are very few on this blog who are happily married or ever will be. But they “know” the most about married life and men. They know all about divorce. What they don’t know about is love and trust. Those two words are considered laughable.

Maybe next week with a new subject, a new viewpoint, comes a ray of hope. Maybe.

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Small Business Owners.

Had a deadline to take acre of here at work.

By Reggie

April 1, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Crystal,

Why do you assume that some of us don’t know about love and trust? I think that some of us do know about divorce but that we also learned some lessons on the way to a better life. Love, which creates its own laughter, is not something, I think, most take lightly.

By Jodi

April 1, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to comment that as I’ve mentioned on this forum occasionally, I used to work in family law. Most people, at least in the state I worked in, list “irreconcilable differences” because if you list any other reason, then you actually have to prove that you were abused, the victim of adultery, etc. and for most people this is impossible, too difficult (your word against his or hers), etc. so they just put “irreconcilable differences” to get the darn divorce over with. I knew MANY abused spouses who did this…

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

I think my guitar picking is messing with the sequence of my fingers while typing!!!

Funny!

By Whiley

April 1, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

I’m sure we’ll all enjoy another thought provoking topic by Shaunti & Diane, things that normal women DON’T CARE ABOUT.

By vince

April 1, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Wanna read something really scary?

After nine years in NYC, I moved to the ATL with my job. I have been hit on by more hetero married men in four years than I was in four days living in Manhattan.

I don’t know where the it got screwy, but I thought the South was full of kind, God lovin’, monogamous folks.

OY

By AWIB

April 1, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Just trying a trick to post late….