Thrashers

By R. Stroz

January 28, 2009 12:43 PM | Link to this

I’d like to know how much of the losses are non-cash items such as depreciation and amortization.

In other words, I want to see a cash flow statement which includes the Hawks, Thrashers, and the arena operations, which was left out of the ajc article.

The ASG loves to play the shell game.

By Bob

January 28, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this

Kari is playing well, he often does in 5 game stretches before he inevitably losed focus. What kills him the most is having a very bad club playing in front of him, it would be interesting to see what he could do on a club assembled properly by a competent GM.

Stroz, you hit the nail on the head (as usual). The books can be skewed to show operating losses for the teams, while the arena racks up huge profits. There is no way they are losing that much money in total (on both clubs and the arena). I’d hazard to guess that all three together are break even, at worst.

By Spud Webb

January 28, 2009 1:11 PM | Link to this

owners losing millions is the headline today. REALLY, no kidding, because they are complete and total morons. My birthday is coming soon and I’m hoping that this court stuff gets settled, sell the team (to someone who wants to keep hockey here), fire Waddell, tar and feather him and make him stand in front of the CNN center and apolagize to EVERY SINGLE FAN that comes into the building. Now that would be a great Birthday present. Gutless effort last night by everyone except Kari. PEACE

By LAC

January 28, 2009 1:17 PM | Link to this

Correct Stroz,these clowns are experts at how to lie and make anything look bad.

The Hawks will never leave Atlanta, but I really believe,we just might be watching the Thrashers final season in Atlanta. Because when the dust settles over this court fight, they will want to raise capital ASAP and that means selling a team, and the Thrashers will go.

Question is… IS there anyone in Atlanta who will buy them ? Keep them here and try to build a winning team for once ?

My guess is no, there is not and the team, much like the Flames will be sold for what they can get and it will leave us without NHL hockey once again…

If this asg had any brains, they would have never bought the teams, but they did, ruined the Thrashers and LIED to us all over and over and over…

If don’t look good folks, It don’t look one bit good.

By TURBO

January 28, 2009 1:24 PM | Link to this

Here is the deal.

Teams will always struggle financially if they don’t win. The excitement with the Thrashers is dropping fast. The Thrashers have only made the playoffs once, and failed miserably when they made. Cash Infusions, Financial Bail-out plans are all short therm band-aids to a longer tearm problem… The team needs to be competative and win. If they don’t you will not be able to draw enough people to make money.. make money… pay the talent (Kovelchuck leaving?)… and ultimately no team (Atlanta Flames ring a bell?).

There is still enough excitement around Hockey and the Thrashers to fix this problem…. and winning in the regular and post season is really the long term answer. This is something that the team under current Thrasher leadership has not been able to accomplish.

Some serious executive leadershp changes are necessary to turn this ship around… and start winning… and start making money… A new Coach isn’t going to do it… it has to start at GM level or go higher.

The Thrashers have performed below my expectation. As a fan who attends 50% or more home games a year, I do not have desire to constantly go and see a sub-par team. Give me a team that I can be proud of and I will come back… Support the team…. and spend my money.

If you don’t then I will be marginally in attendance…. which are dollars lost.. it’s a quite simple formula. I do believe that I am not the only one who feels this way… Just look at the financials to see my point.

By B. Thenet

January 28, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this

Put me in the “ASG are lying their * off” category.

I do not know how they are playing with the money, especially with the Philips Arena side of things, but it just stinks of “let’s buyout Belkin for as little as possible”.

I am going to be kind, and just say that I question the level of research that went into that piece. You might as well just let the ASG boys write their own sad sack articles about how poor they are….so they can introduce that as evidence in the trial.

The PK looked good last night, mainly because Kari was great. Bogo also looked good. The rest of the team, poor.

By Alan

January 28, 2009 1:41 PM | Link to this

TURBO - Careful, now. terptwin might pop in here and tell you how wrong you are, and how the Capitals in 1974-1975 did this and that and …blahblah…

By Former ATLANTA SPIRIT & ATLANTA FALCONS Customer

January 28, 2009 1:55 PM | Link to this

Who is a bigger disgrace and sub-human piece of garbage: Bruce Levenson or Mike Vick?

Discuss.

By Jeff

January 28, 2009 2:10 PM | Link to this

I anm with you, Turbo. I have been a full season ticket holder since Day One, but this will be my last. I will still go to some games, but I am no longer going to throw good money after bad, esecially since the owners cannot or will not put enough $$ into the team to make them competitive. It was one thing when they were an expansion team, but those days are long past.

By LAC

January 28, 2009 2:56 PM | Link to this

levenson or vick… Interesting.

levenson is my call, while what vick did was sick and disgusting, what levenson has done is just as bad.

How do you cuss at STH’s when they are showing CONCERN thay YOU levenson has zero idea what running a professional sports franchise really is.

How do you continue to LIE when nobody has an ounce of respect for you and why did you get involved in the first place.

Just an prime example of a few rich guys, how I they got their $ is way beyond me, but “they” wanted to be sports owners. Well BOYS and I DO mean BOYS, you are both liars and failures at the pro sports scene and levenson you and buddy waddell have done more to DESTROY NHL hockey in this town that anyone could ever vision.

While vick is disgusting, You Mr.Potty Mouth are disgusting in the fact you are a complete liar and incompent bar none !

By Bubba

January 28, 2009 2:59 PM | Link to this

There is absolutely no way they are losing actual cash at Philips Arena. They charge so much for food and drinks and do not allow any competition. $6.50 for a beer is ridiculous - it should be no more than $3 per beer. As it is now a game at Philips will cost you at minimum $50 per person.

With the games starting at 7 most fans can’t get down early enough to eat at Taco Mac pregame or anywhere else for that matter so we are forced to either not eat or eat at the monopoly that is Philips. It is bad enough that the Thrashers are terrible but they just stick it to us with the food and beverage prices.

By Russian

January 28, 2009 3:17 PM | Link to this

I am fine to pay $7 for beer and see TEAM is winning. But you spend $30 on food and Thrashers got pounded 0:7. It was terrible. :-(

By Alan

January 28, 2009 3:49 PM | Link to this

“As it is now a game at Philips will cost you at minimum $50 per person.”

The last time I spent that at Philips, I was buying my own tickets. Last game I went to, I spent $5 on a large pop (ridiculous, yes, should be no more than $2). Food was bought at the CNN center, and was rather inexpensive compared to the amount you’d spend for something comparable inside the arena.

By ThrashersFan

January 28, 2009 3:59 PM | Link to this

Alan,

I am with you. My family and I get down to Phillips,e at at CNN center and get a beer and a coke inside and a pretzel. We pay maybe 50 dollars total for 3 people including parking. You have to be smart when it comes to paying for things at any Arena.

People whining about prices for food at a sports game… what planet have you all been living on and what else can we whine about in regards to the Thrashers?

By Spud Webb

January 28, 2009 4:02 PM | Link to this

Get the giant 5 dollar beers at CNN. Then you don’t have to buy too many 7 dollar beers. Agree with who ever wrote it. I have no issues paying for the beer when they are at least putting a good effort out there.

By Top Shelf

January 28, 2009 4:19 PM | Link to this

As it stands now, it looks bleak for the Thrashers. The Hawks have been bad for years, but the NBA TV money is the difference. The NHL TV contracts are sooooo bad, but maybe that’s because they do such a POOR job at promoting the game.

For instance, EVERYONE knows the Gwinnet Braves are a farm team of the Atlanta Braves. The Gwinnett team will get all kinds of love from the AJC & TV sports. How many know the Gwinnett Gladiators are the Thrashers farm team? How much coverage do they get locally? Where are Gladiator highlights? Featured players in the news? Heck, where are ANY NHL leader stats in the AJC? Can the causal fan follow the game? I have to subscribe to the Hockey News.

If Ted Turner had owned the Flames instead of Tom Cousins, they would have stayed here. They consistently outdrew the Hawks. The Thrashers have done the same, but until the NHL learns to sell the game and TV money can help the bottom line, I fear the Hamilton Thrashers are soon to come.

By Stats

January 28, 2009 5:08 PM | Link to this

Despite these “losses” the ASG are still fighting for who OWNS the team. It would seem they would be fighting about who can GET OUT.

Every time I hear it from any team in any league I laugh. Generally these men make billions in other business ventures, so they did this to lose money? Right. Despite franchises being such bad investments, there is always someone willing to buy a team.

The reality is that the owners make a FORTUNE in gains when the team is sold.

By Old Time Hockey

January 28, 2009 5:17 PM | Link to this

Jeez..what a bunch of whiners! (fans and owners!) Every ownership group complains of losing money. The Braves did it for years, but it is always creative accounting. The difference between hockey and other sports is the tv contracts. The only real revenue for hockey is ticket sales, souvenirs, and food and beverage sales. If you figure average ticket price at $60 and 13,000 people per night (I know, I know), that gives you a little less than 32 million. Hence $6.50 beers and 5 dollar cardboard pretzels.

The league is not going to move this team, and only the board of Governors can approve the move of a team.

Wouldn’t it be nice if every Thrasher first rounder looked as promising as Bogosian?

The clock is ticking on Lehtonen’s next groin injury. He’s such a tease, because he can look so good, then pulls a Damian Rhodes
(who I believe is still nursing a strained groin). Let’s hope he has seen the light when it comes to dedicating yourself to peak conditioning. Although play like this must make him good trade bait. Any new rumors?

By sisu

January 28, 2009 6:01 PM | Link to this

Old Time Hockey I can’t believe you just wrote the name of the goalie that shall remain nameless:)

Kari will continue to play well, it is contract year after all!

Just read something very interesting on the Hockey News, what if the NHL had the franchise tag to apply to players? I would like that!

By Old Time Hockey

January 28, 2009 6:10 PM | Link to this

Ilya’s probably not too happy with that idea.

By sisu

January 28, 2009 6:29 PM | Link to this

Maybe having the circus at the bulb is the problem??? :) They may not have as big audiences as they used to? Surely it cannot be the beloved Hawks that the owners love so much?

Old Time Hockey, imagine if we had that rule and Hossa would have had to stay or we would have been compensated? Could have been very interesting.

By Hotrod

January 28, 2009 9:07 PM | Link to this

Don Wadell and the Thrashers are the furthest thing from ASG’s mind. Its really weird having out of touch owners.

As far as tv promoting hockey. They need to hang some cameras just above the rink to really show how fast these guys skate and how hard they hit. The camera on top of the press box just does not do it justice.

By Reality Check

January 28, 2009 9:34 PM | Link to this

Those who naively cling to the thought that the ASG is hiding profits are in for a harsh lesson. The reported losses include the arena. While the losses are likely inflated for legal and accounting purposes they remain real and significant.

It is well known that the owners are NBA fans and have no committment to the Thrashers or the NHL. This is reflected in their actions and absence at Thrashers games. (The owners seats are 5 rows in front of mine and are rarely used, but you will find Gearon and Co. on the front row of every Hawks game.)

History does repeat. This is a replay of the Flames situation (which I also sadly witnessed.) The combination of financially weak ownership and a bad economy will force a sell of the Thrashers. The question remains can an owner be found that would keep the team in Atlanta. (Evidence also supports that NHL attendance is better than NBA attendance in Atlanta 100% of the time when the NHL franchise has a better winning percentage.)

Many also believed the Flames would never leave. When it became apparent that they would a “Save our Flames” campaign was launched but it was too late.

People can whine or complain, most of which can be reasonable justified, but it comes down to a simple question - are you interested in maintaining an NHL franchise in Atlanta?

If your answer is No then do nothing and your wish will be fulfilled. If your answer is Yes I suggest that you join others in a productive exercise aimed at keeping the Thrashers in Atlanta … and start now before it is too late.

By Brendan

January 28, 2009 11:44 PM | Link to this

Oh, I don’t think the AS, LLC is hiding profits, so much as I think they’re exaggerating losses. And with at least three (3) good reasons for doing so. But that’s not the point I want to make. For months, no … make that YEARS … we’ve speculated on this blog that the owners like Waddell, precisely because he adheres to strict budgets.

Stop. It can’t be for Waddell’s laser precision sports acumen. The whole reason people vent against bloggers, calling them “wannabe GM’s,” resides in the fact that they believe a BLOGGER, if left in charge for 9 seasons, would place the team in the bottom third of the Conference at least eight times, never advance the team past the 1st round of the playoffs, or even win a single playoff game. So Thank Goodness we have Don Waddell to lead us. Under his Administration, the results have been infinitely better.

But I digress. No, the reason the ownership retains Waddell resides in their business plan. It HAS TO BE. Iffff it’s true … that the Thrashers “break even” at $38.5 million in payroll, then the team can have a $45.5 million payroll, which it does, and still break even if it gets $7.0 to $7.5 million, or MORE, in revenue-sharing dollars. That’s the truth I believe. I could be wrong. But in my “outsider’s view” of things, the Thrashers don’t lose money until the attendance drops off substantially. That’s why the owners “like” Waddell.

Would they really LIKE Waddell, given the results, (peek at the standings,) if the team were also hemorrhaging money? I doubt that, seriously. I reject the notion that Waddell is being kept, strictly because they don’t want to pay two (2) GM’s and two (2) Coaches simultaneously. Though, that is also potentially true. Why would anyone PURPOSEFULLY set out to pay DOUBLE for the positions of GM and Head Coach? If changing the GM, during the building process, could guarantee a large profit, they’d do it. But they’re not about to open their wallets for a new GM to waltz in the door and bestow instant credibility to the team. Not until the lawsuit is settled. And no established GM would have anything to do with the Thrashers while their finances are so strained and limited, with a goal of devaluing an appraisal, and lessening the amount of a buyout for an estranged owner.

The owners reward will come when they sell the team. They paid $131 million. If sold today, out on the open market, it’d fetch no less than $181 million. That’s $50 million in equity. Or, said another way, it’s an average yield of $10 million for each year they’ve owned the team. Someone will pay that $181 million, too. Maybe even more. Forbes estimates the “fair market value” of the team at $146-148 million.

Waddell is very “useful” to this ownership group. He helps their lawsuit. He’s perfectly “fine” with leading the team into annual lottery draft positions, at the expense of his legacy, so that the team can reload, and cha-ching, “cash-in” even higher at the CLOSING TABLE, once the team is well stocked with Bogosians and Hedmans, and so forth.

By sisu

January 28, 2009 11:49 PM | Link to this

Reality check, you are spot on in your comments as to what the owners care about, the Thrashers were thrown in the deal. They are really clueless since the hockey product filled the arena in their early years as owners while Hawks were losing and having hardly any fans show up.

SO it goes but what can we do to keep the team in town???

By Scottbravesfan

January 29, 2009 12:28 AM | Link to this

It’s the NHL’s fault. Why do their players have such high salaries? They should be just a few steps away from the MLS level salaries, minus Beckham. Because when it comes to TV ratings the NHL’s is nothing so they basically have no television contract. The NFL and MLB have 6 BILLION dollars in revenue every year. Even the NBA has a decent TV contract. The NHL wasted a full year of lock out and when they come back the game is still the same. Players are over paid. No one in the NHL should make more than 4 or 5 million dollars. That’s what Ovechkin and Crosby should make. Everyone else should be around the million mark and less for good players. There’s just no revenue available to pay these guys the salaries that they make.

By Top Shelf

January 29, 2009 5:54 AM | Link to this

Well, we lost the Flames, then the Knights…… If we lose the Thrashers, hockey will NOT try Atlanta again. We will have to be satisfied with the Gladiators. :(

All the southern teams except Dallas (Nashville, Florida, Pheonix, TB & Carolina) are struggling financially. This is the land of A) College Football, B) Pro Football, C) NASCAR D)Baseball E)Hockey is tied with basketball and soccer

I love hockey, but I have watched it since Gump Worsley stopped shots bare faced and you just can’t get people interested in it down here. Hockey fans are as passionate as Bulldawg fans, but they are few and far between.

By mr. mike

January 29, 2009 7:34 AM | Link to this

I’m afraid I agree with LAC & Top Shelf. I think the Thrashers are gone soon. I know, I know; “they have a lease until 2020 at Philips Arena, etc”. Let’s get serious. Cleveland bid adieu to the Browns, Baltimore lost the Colts, L.A. lost the Rams & Raiders. That’s all in the NFL; with a fabulous TV contract. I think that we’ve had our shot; we’ll not get a third chance at hockey from the NHL. I sincerely believe & am crushed by the fact that I think the Thrash are headed to Kansas City, Portland, Seattle, Hamilton or Winnipeg. Canuck buddies of mine think Hamilton is still a long-shot; but all believe that the NHL is prepped to give Winnipeg another shot; especially given how disastrous the move of the Jets to Phoenix turned out. I was a 20-game per season attendee up unti last year when we went to about 10; this year have been twice. I guess that makes me part of the attendance problem; but it is just too pricey for the product anymore.

By mr. mike

January 29, 2009 7:34 AM | Link to this

I’m afraid I agree with LAC & Top Shelf. I think the Thrashers are gone soon. I know, I know; “they have a lease until 2020 at Philips Arena, etc”. Let’s get serious. Cleveland bid adieu to the Browns, Baltimore lost the Colts, L.A. lost the Rams & Raiders. That’s all in the NFL; with a fabulous TV contract. I think that we’ve had our shot; we’ll not get a third chance at hockey from the NHL. I sincerely believe & am crushed by the fact that I think the Thrash are headed to Kansas City, Portland, Seattle, Hamilton or Winnipeg. Canuck buddies of mine think Hamilton is still a long-shot; but all believe that the NHL is prepped to give Winnipeg another shot; especially given how disastrous the move of the Jets to Phoenix turned out. I was a 20-game per season attendee up unti last year when we went to about 10; this year have been twice. I guess that makes me part of the attendance problem; but it is just too pricey for the product anymore.

By Sage of Bluesland

January 29, 2009 7:49 AM | Link to this

Well, one good thing if the team is moved—the new ownership would finally do the right thing and fire that bumbling, lisping little fraud of a GM we’ve had since day one. There’s no way his performance would be accepted in either a town or a franchise which valued ‘winning’.

The franchise will improve from that moment on. Too bad it will be for Winnipeg as opposed to the sheep here in Atlanta—who continued to subsidize the incompetence, leading the owners to never have to take action.

Want to see one of the main causes of our current situation? Look in the mirror (if you’re a season ticket holder).

Put this wretched franchise out of its misery—it’s almost sad to watch the games these days…(But I’m sure there’s a spreadsheet out there somewhere to say that we’re doing just fine getting ready to enter our third “Five-Year Plan”)…

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 8:49 AM | Link to this

Taken on it’s own, yes the team is in trouble and a prime candidate for relocation. But external issues may allow us to keep our team here in Atlanta, such as…

There are team in greater trouble…Phoenix (run by the one and only Douglas Moss, who killed the IHL) doesn’t get NHL revenue sharing. Their lease is so restrictive, that the team acutally PAYS the city a % of the parking. They get nothing from concessions. They are a young and up-and-coming team who has an affordable payroll. They are #1 on the list to move. The Islanders play in the horrible Nassau County Coliseum. It was out of date in 1980, and nothing has been done to it since. Charles Wang is tired of losing money and is threatening to move to KC. Tampa is losing support and their GM has said (on the record) that any one of his players is available…St. Louis and Stamkos included. The Panthers get little support in Miami even though they have a youung and exciting team. Both Florida teams play in beautiful new arenas.

Another issue is the cities available for relocation…Hamilton is always mentioned, but can the local economy which is not much different from US rust belt cities like Detroit and Cleveland support a team in this economy? Copps Coliseum is nice…for the AHL, but lacks what is needed for the NHL. Would the city pony up to get the arena to NHL levels? Winnipeg is a small town and had problems getting corporate support back when the Jets were there. I have no doubt both of these cities would support their team and fill the place, but it takes so much more than that to survive. Seattle’s arena is a dump…that’s why the Sonics left. The WHL T-Birds are also VERY well established there. Portland may not be big enough to support the NHL, although the arena is fine and they have always supported the Winter Hawks there. Las Vegas is a joke…it would fail and I don’t think the NHL want’s a meandering team a la the Scouts / Rockies / Devils or Seals / Barons / North Stars of the 70’s and 80’s. KC has a great new arena, but again, a relatively small fan and corporate base. Houston would be a likely candidate if it were not another sun belt city. Huge city with a new arena. That all being said, contraction is as likely as relocation for some teams.

It may end up that this economy helps the team to stay. The costs of moving are astronomical and fans and corporate money is tough to come by these days. You have a better chance to suceed by working on your current fan base. This year’s STH’s bought before the downturn accelerated. Next season should be more telling, and teams other than MON, TOR, NYR, MIN and the like will probably see some empty seats at home for the first time in a while…

By Alan

January 29, 2009 10:22 AM | Link to this

Looks like Top Shelf and some others around here need a bit of a history lesson. I was born after the Flames departed (and in Detroit no less), but I know for a fact those guys filled the arena all the time. It may not have been consistent sellout crowds, but at least the arena looked full.

The numbers from that era support that. Go ahead, look it up. I’ll wait.

Say, do you know why the Knights moved? Because (a) Atlanta was getting an NHL team, and the owners knew it, and (b) The Omni was set to be tore down to make way for Philips Arena. You do know why The Omni was tore down, right? Because Atlanta needed to have a NHL capable arena in place to support a NHL team.

All you doom and gloom types need to realize that the likelihood of Atlanta going anywhere is very slim to none. The owners are putting out these stories simply to devalue the team in the eyes of the court. You want the real numbers? Show us the cashflow statements that list all assets tied to and including Philips.

Of course, by me saying all this, you’ll see a couple of morons pop out of the wool and refer to me as a sheep.

Baaa.

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 11:30 AM | Link to this

Alan, I did live here when the Flames were here and I can say you are correct. The Omni was always hopping for a Flames game. They were a good team, and the games began at 8:05 which allowed us who lived outside the perimeter (Sandy Springs was considered waaaaaaay out in the late 1970’s) to go home for dinner before heading downtown. But the Flames were also successful because they invested in the city. After games they could be found at a few select watering holes mixing with the fans. They stayed in the city over the summer and opened businesses here. Atlanta was a smaller city then and those actions and efforts only made us that closer to the team.

CNN Center back then was the Omni International and there was much less to do down there before and after a game. You could go skating on the “Land of Green Ice” - but that ws about it and food and drink were a bit hard to find. What is now Olympic Park ws a dilapidated warehouse district. The Omni had only 16 suites….but we came because we had a damn good team - and then Tom Cousins crushed us. I still dispise that man!

By Top Shelf

January 29, 2009 11:47 AM | Link to this

Hey Alan, if you read the posts you would have seen where I said: If Ted Turner had owned the Flames instead of Tom Cousins, they would have stayed here. They consistently outdrew the Hawks.

The fact is there is NO helping the Thrashers from the Spirit group. They have to overpay just to meet the NHL MINIMUM cap. The drafting has been rated by experts as below average. They DO NOT have a real developmental minor league affiliation. Face it, Gearon’s dad was a Hawk. The NBA will sell better with the demographics of Atlanta. The Thrasher’s “flagship radio station” barely talks hockey, much less educate the novice fan. No sports team can only make it on ticket sales. TV revenue, advertising and exposure are needed. Two years ago, the Thrashers won the SE division and most TV and radio were STILL talking the Hawks. The Thrashers could not capitalize on that moment, not the Hawks HAVE on their playoff series last year. No HS hockey, no NCAA hockey here, there is nothing in place to build a greater base than transplants and die hards.

Face it……..it isn’t working.

By Top Shelf

January 29, 2009 11:51 AM | Link to this

but we came because we had a damn good team - and then Tom Cousins crushed us. I still dispise that man! AMEN!

By T-Bone

January 29, 2009 11:56 AM | Link to this

Brendan, You need to add the annual losses to the cost basis for the owners. I know some of those losses are non-cash charges but they’ve no doubt had to pony-up more equity to keep the thing afloat, and given the economy, and state of the franchise I think $180mm is a very optimistic price tag. Fortunately, this just might light a fire under their arses to get moving on selling as the big payday appears a long way off, if ever, and those annual losses will continue for as long as they own and mismanage the franchise. The loss this season should be well above any to-date given the dismal attendance.

By Alan

January 29, 2009 12:01 PM | Link to this

I remember reading about the Flames growing up, and how good they were. I had my allegiance to Detroit, mind you, but I remember absolutely loathing the Flames. Not because I am a Detroit fan, but because I blamed them for moving away. I thought it was preposterous for Detroit to have a team, but not Atlanta. I wanted to see my Wings, and that’s a dream I couldn’t live until my teens, during a trip to Detroit in the winter of 1994.

I, of course, grew up and learned why the Flames moved. The cast of characters (Cousins for selling the team to people who clearly wanted to move it, and Turner for not jumping at the opportunity when he had a chance; years later, he admitted regret in not purchasing the Flames, for example) involved in that tragic comedy are to blame.

By Alan

January 29, 2009 12:11 PM | Link to this

“Face it……..it isn’t working.”

Face it, the Thrashers are staying in Atlanta. From an economic standpoint, there’s nowhere for them to go. From the league’s standpoint, they won’t let the team go anywhere.

Those are the facts. You can mumble and grumble about the Basketball-centric ownership group all you want - I know I do, and those individuals on the blog who phone and email me know I do as well - but the team is staying. Maybe you and the others who postulate relocation want the team to leave, but it’s not happening. I can’t see any other reason why it would even be bandied about.

By dhj_1962

January 29, 2009 12:13 PM | Link to this

thank GOD there is a game tonight!!!!! it is just as simple as that!!!! Go Thrashers!!!! Oh, one more thing, I work at Gulfstream in Savannah, we just reported 5.512 billion dollars in net sales for 2008, maybe we should by the Thrashers. Love yall, mean it.

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 12:18 PM | Link to this

Top Shelf…of the 4 major sports, hockey relies most on the ticket sales becasue of the lack of the national revenue enhancing TV contract. So in this economy, with corporate dollars tougher to generate, hockey is better positioned than one may expect to survive. TV will get worse for hockey as it is being reported that Bettman and company are telling the NBC that the days of free hockey rights are over and that they will move to a rights based fee and and not a revenue sharing agreement like the one currently in place. NBC will drop hockey. Vs. does a decent job, but ESPN is better known and in more homes…the league needs to do what it can to get back to ESPN. The league will get promos during college football and basketball games and get the much needed exposure…as well as more than the 45 seconds it currently gets on a one hour SportsCenter.

The Thrashers need to take a cue from the Minnesota Wild, who saw the failure of their predecessors the Noth Stars, and became VERY active in the community. The Leafs gave away tickets to pre-season games…and that in a market where the game dosn’t need to be sold. Going to a hospital 2X a year isn’t going to cut it anymore. We need more positive stories from the Thrash like Nic Havelid’s charities…and the media to cover it.

As for the Hawks - well, it is much easier to be successful in basketball. There are only 10 players per team and no developmental players to fund (The NBDL is run as a separate entity and the players are free agents paid by the minor lague owners). Fewer great players are needed, as those on the end of the bench often go games without seeing the court and are paid accordingly. Even a 4th liner in hockey is going to play 10 minutes. I also believe the NHL will do whatever is needed to keep the team here. Atlanta is too big of a market to miss. They do not want to fail twice here. I can see the Coyotes returning to Winnipeg. What a feel good story that would be. I feel we are safe…from moving, that is - but not the assanine descisions of the ASG. When will they realize the paychecks to the players end after game 82? All those playoff games are gravy…that is how the Wings can spend more, they go deep into the playoffs each year.

Oh, and there is a LOT of HS hockey in Atlanta. Tons of beer-league, and kids travel and house leagues too. Alabama-Hunstville is the nearest NCAA hockey not because of popularity, but because of Title IX which states that there must be gender and monetary equality in NCAA sanctioned sports. If they add hockey, the must add a female sport of equal scholarships, and in this economy, who can afford it?

In other words, hockey HASN’T failed, the ASG has failed.

By Toby

January 29, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this

Maybe the A$G is realizing the best business practice is NOT to tell the season ticket holders to “deal with it” when referring to the hike in prices while the team has not won a thing and DW is still the GM.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

January 29, 2009 12:56 PM | Link to this

glovesave — Don’t forget that hockey players will be used in ESPN commercials, which are by far the best series of commercials in sports entertainment (Reebok’s “Terry Tate: Office Linebacker” commercials take a close second in my mind, due in part to the longevity of ESPNs simple but effective commercial format that has).

By Alan

January 29, 2009 1:13 PM | Link to this

ranallo - Speaking of hockey commercials, the Nike goalie commercials have to be my favorite series.

I’m kind of partial to the Kovalchuk/Naslund spot as well, for obvious reasons.

By econ 101

January 29, 2009 1:15 PM | Link to this

Time for an econ lesson:

If you sell 1,000 $7 beers you get $7,000 If you sell 1,500 $6 beers you get $9,000 If you sell 2,000 $5 beers you get $10,000

Which makes more sense?

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 1:19 PM | Link to this

Ranallo - exactly. Free marketing. Not exactly Bettman’s strong suit.

Forgot to mention there are MANY ACHA collegiate club teams in the area…GT, KSU, GSU, UF, FSU, AU, UA, UT, MTSU…

By Spud Webb

January 29, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this

Glovesave29 excellent points. I agree 1000%… “In other words, hockey HASN’T failed, the ASG has failed.” That’s about as simple as it gets. I’m afraid the clowns (ASG) will continue to fail us.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

January 29, 2009 1:46 PM | Link to this

I’m sure in Econ 101 they discuss things such as cost to supply (I’m sure there’s also a fancy name for it) and other overhead expenditures involved with each product supplied.

For arguments sake, let’s say one beer costs $2 to provide to a customer at a hockey game (this cost is generated by me, ie fake, and simplified for sake of example). With your numbers, a $7 beer would net them $5000, a $6 beer $6000, a $5 beer $6000.

$6 beers, bought less frequently than $5 beers, would still net them the same amount of money (with your quantity of products purchased). However, it would cost the seller less for any games where people decide not to buy drinks (i.e., the beer isn’t used, and can be reused at the next even, so thus the cost isn’t incurred).

Finally, is a $1 drop in consumer cost going to truly raise the amount purchased enough to cover the increased overhead? Does $1 less = 500 more purchases? There’s a reason they teach Econ 201 (I never took 101 though, so it could’ve been taught there too).

Though I’m a sucker for technicalities, I understood your point. It makes absolute sense that every arena in the nation charge less for concessions than they do currently…however, I assume they know far more about consumer demand at sporting events than I do, and have done far more complex computations into figuring out how to price their beer.

I’m guessing even the ASG have enough business acumen to know how to charge for a beer at a sporting event…but then again, they DID raise ticket prices this season despite the pitiful team performance last season.

By Alan

January 29, 2009 1:48 PM | Link to this

They very well might, Spud. I still think they’re being deceptive about the numbers, and the ASG are actually much better off than they make it out to be.

I’m reserving my judgment until the free agent frenzy of the offseason. If they’re not making strides to make the Thrashers a better team, then I’ll be far more inclined to agree with that sentiment.

Yeah, they’ve been utterly inept. But I think it’s more a consequence of the lawsuit. I’ll readily admit being wrong if things remain the same.

By Top Shelf

January 29, 2009 1:54 PM | Link to this

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the NHL on ESPN before? Gary Thorne, Bill Clement, Jim Schonfeld, Barry Melrose ring a bell? What “great ESPN commercials” did they run then? I admit they are heads & shoulders over NBC, but didn’t ESPN NOT want to bid on the NHL last contract?

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this

I cannot remember exactly how it played out, but I think that ESPN offered less than the NHL was hoping for. Bettman and the boys played hardball and ESPN called their bluff.

They did run NHL themed commercials…Rob Ray as the security guard comes to mind.

By Bart

January 29, 2009 3:00 PM | Link to this

Econ The ASG hasn’t been to your class. Last year the All Star game was here and they had a full house 2 nights in a row. There were beer vendors standing around because they RAISED the prices higher than the regular season high prices. DUH

By GaVaHokie

January 29, 2009 3:57 PM | Link to this

Everyone also has to remember the naming rights to Philips Arena is contingent on BOTH teams playing there… otherwise the contract is void.

Can someone refresh us on the length of that contract and the value?

By GaVaHokie

January 29, 2009 4:20 PM | Link to this

Nevermind… I found it. Here is a link to the Arena naming rights and the length of contracts.

Phillips pays $9 million a year for the naming rights. The contract expires in 2019. The contract (from what I’ve been told) is contingent on both teams playing. If one gets sold, the contract is void.

So they’d lose out on $90 million of guaranteed money by selling the Thrashers.

The Thrashers team valuation is $148 million.

Even if you sold the Thrashers, lost the naming rights contract with Phillips and then try to “renegotiate” a new naming rights contract for JUST the Hawks… if you look at the naming rights for “one team” venues on that ESPN list… it’s only like $2 million a year.

By Bob

January 29, 2009 4:21 PM | Link to this

ESPN offered less than the NHL was hoping for. Bettman and the boys played hardball and ESPN called their bluff

Bingo. Biggest mistake Bettman and the owners made coming out of the lockout was not taking whatever ESPN’s offer was, and accepting it, even if it meant free. They opened up the game with the new rules, and ESPN had two 24/7 high def channels working to showcase the new product and get interest in the sport going, and the NHL takes the Outdoor Network’s (now VS) $70m 3year offer and relegates the sport to a channel no one even knew how to find.

So they go through all the trouble of the lockout and fixing the sport, and then go put on the games where no one watched them. Brilliant.

By Brendan

January 29, 2009 4:25 PM | Link to this

T-Bone, I can certainly appreciate that post! :) Moving right along, in the past year and a half, the Nashville Predators were sold for $193 million, and the Oilers and Tampa Bay Lightning sold right at or about $200 million. I have to believe that the Atlanta Spirit, LLC, would be able to sell the Thrashers somewhere in this ballpark, if they chose to sell the team.

If hockey teams were such a bad investment, why do people keep buying them? Revisiting the Nashville Predators sale, Jim Balsillie offered a ridiculously over-inflated $238 million for the Nashville franchise. Forbes Magazine estimated the value of the franchise at $148 million, just ahead of the Thrashers’ value.

So?

So, the market place sets the value. I’d wager that the value is still at or about this price ($193 million, price actually paid, not by Balsillie.). The Thrashers may not get $199 million, but $181 million seems very attainable.

Also, per Pollstar Magazine, in an article appearing at the Philips Arena website on February 22, 2008, Philips Arena ranks 3rd in the nation for event attendance. Which should mean … that the venue is a decent revenue producer.

Help, I need an accountant. Sara?? What’s the truth, then? Is Philips Arena raking in the bucks, but the Hawks are losing money, and the Thrashers are breaking even, or losing money, slightly?

To be clear, I’m not on a witch-hunt. I don’t especially care what the figures are. As a “hockey fan,” my interests lie in (1) Finding an owner with deep pockets and vast reserves, (2) that said owner CARE passionately about hockey, (3) that the passionate hockey owner ‘know his role’ and ‘step aside’ while the GM takes exclusive control over the vision, direction, and oversight of the team, and (4) that the owner hold the GM accountable by peeking at the standings to observe the results, and take appropriate action. That means firing a GM who obtains poor results and re-signing a GM who delivers the goods. It would be wholly unacceptable to land a Lamoriello-like GM, win a Cup, then let him escape to another franchise. Lock ‘im up! A good GM hires great scouts, excellent coaches, and a capable equipment manager, along with a medical staff who understands the tendencies of the players. Etc. And so forth.

By Tony C.

January 29, 2009 4:48 PM | Link to this

I still remember the “hockey falls” commercials which featured the NHL2Night gang (Minus Buccigross) My favorite was this one

Long story short, if the old geezers club would let go of their xenophobic view of the hockey world (i.e. only Canadians “get it”), we might actually get some decent NHL exposure.

Betteman needs to swallow his pride and get down with ESPN. I understand they’re going to be taking a “hard stance with NBC” due to the success of The Winter Classic… sounds like they didn’t learn the lesson ESPN taught them after the lockout: NHL needs U.S. TV/Cable exposure much more than U.S. TV/Cable operators need the NHL-I mean c’mon they’ve got poker (whooo!!!).

Anyway, I’m looking forward to seeing what we get for Reasoner & Schneider (also there’s talk that Nic Havelid would like a run at The Cup sooner than Le Thrash can honestly be considered ready to do so).

By Sara

January 29, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this

Brendan It’s hard to know exactly. Things like the naming rights will be revenue for the arena. Likewise, the payments on the bond would also only impact the arena. You also have to consider how they might allocate the advertising revenue ~ ads on the ice or along the boards - is that considered arena revenue or Thrasher revenue? I can’t remember how much Spirit is on the hook for with the bond payments for the arena - that’s got to be a huge cash outlay though. And do both teams have lease agreements with the arena? That might sound funny since it’s all the same owners, but I’d bet the farm each one of those entities is it’s own company, with Atlanta Spirit being the parent. That means the Thrashers and the Hawks might have to pay rent essentially to Philips Arena. Now while that makes no difference ultimately to the partners, it does affect the outlook of each team individually, just by moving around the money. The Thrashers might have to pay $20M to the arena each season, let’s say. While it’s no more than moving money from one bank account to another, that would still show up for the Thrashers as a $20M expense - and thus create $20M more in “losses” for the team, even though it’s a sum-zero effect to Atlanta Spirit. Gotta love shell games.

Outside of all of that nonsense, my suspicion is that the arena makes good money, the Hawks, at least at present, should be breaking even or slightly profiting, and the Thrashers are losing the biggest bucks. I don’t know if hockey could be profitable here or not, even under the best of performance circumstances. But if properly run all the way around, profits generated by the arena and the Hawks should be more than enough to off-set minimized losses from the Thrashers. But again - that assumes properly run and successful ventures all the way around.

BTW, let’s go back to your sales calculations and whatnot. Spirit bought both teams and the operating rights for $96M. Since then, they’ve had to pour money into the teams, which increases their basis.

Let’s say the Thrashers’ value in the original purchase was $30M. Since then, maybe they’ve had to put in $40M (estimated) of their own money into just the Thrashers. If they could sell the team for $150M, they’d get a return of $80M. I mean, that’s rough and dirty, but it’s the basic idea. But for that kind of return, it might well make up for losing some of the revenue from the naming rights at Philips if the team departed. Especially since they would then be off the hook for potential future losses.

Smarter though would be to find a local buyer who won’t move the team. Then technically the naming rights contract wouldn’t be voided, they would benefit as the arena operators from a lease agreement with the Thrashers plus revenue earned from game attendance, and they’d have $80M to throw into the Hawks. Course smart and Atlanta Spirit is a bit of an oxymoron, but you guys already know that. :)

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:40 PM | Link to this

WOW………..LETEMIN……….WHAT A GEM………ROFL…..ROFL…..ROFL…….

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:41 PM | Link to this

HEY APOLOGISTS………….THOSE 4 “LET INS”………WAS THAT THE DEFENSE’S FAULT……….?……………ROFLMAO………..

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:42 PM | Link to this

TYPICAL LETEMIN……………WHAT’S THE EXCUSE THIS TIME????????………….BAD BOUNCES?????…………..MONKEY PUCKS??????………..CAN’T WAIT FOR THE PRESSER ON THIS ONE……………ROFLMAO…………

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:43 PM | Link to this

COULD NOT EVEN COMPLETE 1 PERIOD…………..ROFL……WHAT A PILE OF CRAPOLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:44 PM | Link to this

WHAT A PATHETIC PILE OF CRAP LETEMIN IS………….SEND THE FOCKER BACK TO HELSINKI DAMMIT……………

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:45 PM | Link to this

LETEMIN CAN’T EVEN BEAT THE WORST DAMN TEAM…………..WHAT A PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A PLAYER…………..HE IS A NO TALENT HACK…………….

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:47 PM | Link to this

WHERE THE F### IS PAVELEC???????????? BAD BOUNCE MONKEY F_CK LETEMIN DESERVES NO REASON TO STAY WITH THE CLUB……………PIECE OF TRASH….NO TALENT……….LOSER…………..ROFL….ROFL….ROFL….

By TRON

January 29, 2009 7:49 PM | Link to this

ROFL…….MUST BE THE DEFENSE’S FAULT, HUH????????……….DOES IT GET HARD COMING UP WITH ALL YOUR EXCUSES, APOLOGISTS?????????………….JUST WONDERING…………FACE IT……QUIT MAKING EXCUSES FOR THE PUNK…………..HE SUCKS……….THAT IS A FACT………..ROFL….ROFL….ROFLMAO…………

By stendec

January 29, 2009 8:11 PM | Link to this

Hi Mike and his apologist brethern. Enjoying the game? Only one team suited up. Since I am not credible in anything regarding ice hockey please bear with me. I must have imagined future NHL Hall Of Famer Kari Letemin whiffing in four first period goals to the New York Islanders. The Islanders! How is that save percentage fellow? I know, you have an excuse for every one of them. Could not have been fault of wonder bust! Ilya Kovalchuk cannot even score against the Isles. Excuse me, captain, what a crock. Guess it pays not to be credible sometimes. Apologist credibility appears mighty shaky right now! Enjoy the rest of another home ice mail-in job my friend. Hoping for another shutout! No, Tron is not me but I do agree with him 100 percent.

By B. Thenet

January 29, 2009 8:36 PM | Link to this

The worst team in the NHL came in an simply out hustled, out worked, and out skated the Thrashers.

The only goal I put on Lehtonen is the one that dinged his glove, he really had no shot at any of the others.

By stendec

January 29, 2009 8:40 PM | Link to this

Let us review shall we? Kari Letemin surrenders four killer marshmallow goals in first period. Moose pitches a second period shutout. Net (no pun intended) result? An insurmountable 4-0 home ice deficit to the second worst team in the NHL (guess which one is worst?) with 20 minutes remaining. Thanks Letemin! You too John Petrino. Maybe Hamilton will be more to the liking of you talentless quitters! Please do not forget to turn out the arena lights when you leave.

By stendec

January 29, 2009 8:48 PM | Link to this

Thanks B Thenet. Always nice to hear from the apologist corner. I would shell out NHL prices to watch Knights. Would have to be paid to sit through this crapola at Loseland! Maybe Hamilton will eventually forgive Atlanta. Maybe not!

By stendec

January 29, 2009 9:01 PM | Link to this

Shutout is history. Goal not by captain. Losing streak remains intact. Thanks Kari “Hiccup” Letemin!

By stendec

January 29, 2009 9:17 PM | Link to this

Thrashers have put up three. If only John Petrino had not started Kari Letemin!

By stendec

January 29, 2009 9:30 PM | Link to this

Moose Lehtonen lets in a critical softee! Game now officially over. Ilya Kovalchuk still has no net accuracy whatsoever! Overrated. Toiletlids are No. 1. In reverse standings order of course. Another home ice bellyup choke job to savor. Hamilton anyone?

By stendec

January 29, 2009 9:39 PM | Link to this

Another gutless effort by a heartless group! May the losing streak stretch on and on and on. All the way into Hamilton!

By Glovesave29

January 29, 2009 9:41 PM | Link to this

First goal was overcommitted and the third goal was weak…but how the heck can you put the 2nd and 4th on Kari. C’mon…be honest. TERRIBLE DEFENSE. I put this loss on Anderson. He tinkered with the defesive pairings and we were sloppy and out of sync.

By B. Thenet

January 29, 2009 9:46 PM | Link to this

Stendec, Lehtonen was freaking knocked over by defenseman on two of the goals. And the lack of physical play allowed the Isles to be just hanging out in the crease to make short passes to each other for easy goals.

I agree the effort for 40 minutes was non-existent. However, use your brain and admit that Lehtonen was not the problem in the 1st. He was a victim of shoddy heartless hockey.

By stendec

January 29, 2009 9:58 PM | Link to this

Kari (Letemin) is playing winning hockey. His save percentage has been 93.9 or better in four of the last five games. What is save percentage over last five games plus a period? I would wager it is nowhere near 93.9! Bogo and Pev sounded like complete clueless idiots on live TV! Glad Bogo thought loss was so funny. Was not to me! I have never advocated banishment of a professional team from a city. Until now! Where are the Wolves? Knights come home. All is forgiven! BTW - Moose won 4-1. Wonder bust boozer lost 4-0.

By stendec's rinky dinky stinky winky

January 29, 2009 10:03 PM | Link to this

drip, drip, drip, drip

By stendec

January 29, 2009 10:15 PM | Link to this

Fourth goal was by captain. My error. Sorry. Still does not make up for multitudes of serious misfires or iron shots. Again, forgive mistake. If ever a goaltender was undeserving of a loss it was Moose. If ever a netminder deserved a loss it was Kari “Hiccup” Letemin. Those are the facts.

By Brendan

January 30, 2009 12:20 AM | Link to this

We didn’t get “slaughtered” by the “On the Fly” boys tonight. Our video highlights packages went largely without comment.

By Toby

January 30, 2009 9:04 AM | Link to this

Bright side…Future may hold Tavaras/Bogo/Esposito/Little/Enstrom/Kovy

Not bad.

By Sara

January 30, 2009 9:11 AM | Link to this

*We didn’t get “slaughtered” by the “On the Fly” boys tonight. Our video highlights packages went largely without comment. *

Pictures do speak louder than words…

By h

January 30, 2009 9:12 AM | Link to this

To me, it definitely looked like the defense truly let Kari down. The first 2 goals were just guys sitting point blank without a body on them like target practice. The 3rd goal was just strange in that Kari didn’t look behind himself, but the truth of the matter is the Thrash gave up 20 first period shots….20!!! That is bad defense and no hustle to the puck. On first goal I also noticed Kovy trailing the play….he saw a 3 on 2 ahead of him and instead of skating into the mix and back-checking, he sat back and waitied for the puck to come back out….5 seconds later, the first goal came. I love Kovy, but if he is not right in the play he typically sits back and waits, which I think is part of their “own zone” problems. Anyway, disgusting first period, but a very typical game for the Thrash. They always play at least one period poorly enough to lose. Lately, they have been flat early in many games. They had to come back from 3-0 against Toronto, they were down 3-0 against the Flyers, and 4-0 last night…not good. I think it is time to make some trades and bring a couple of kids up. I’m sure others may differ, but Here are some of the things I think we need to do:

Sign Armstrong to 2-3 year deal. Shouldn’t cost a ton, and he plays hard and has talent Sign Reasoner now to 1-2 year deal or trade him (he has value) Sign Little and Peverley to extension now (they need to be part of the solution and may get real expensive later) Either sign Thorburn, Slater and Crusher to 1 year deal or trade them (not sure I care much either way) Trade Perrin, Boulton, Schneider and Oystrick (he has some value) Release Moose after season, or if Pavs is healthy, release or trade Moose now Sign Havs to 2 year deal (he’s not flashy but very consistent, and can help our young defense grow) Trade Ex ONLY if you can get real value for him, otherwise, hold until next year’s deadline Bring up 2-3 kids from Chicago if helthy and see if they are part of the answer (maybe Sterling, Kulda, Denny, Holzapfel or Prospisil)

Sorry for the rambling, just tired of watching the losing. Something needs to be done to fix this team. They are just bad, and it is sad.

By stendec

January 30, 2009 9:36 AM | Link to this

Atlanta is back to being Loserville, USA with the exception of Falcons and possibly Hawks. Thanks, THRASHERS and Braves! Falcons need defense. Hawks need offense. Braves need pitching. Thrashers need a miracle! I still contend that Kari Letemin lacks all the qualities a top line goaltender requires in order to succeed. People tell me my act is old. How many years have we allowed this underachieving high round draft pick to act like a spoiled brat? How many more years should we allow him in order for him to reach his (highly questionable) potential? I hear Hamilton is a nice place. Maybe he can get his issues straigtened out there. Four goals in less than 20 minutes are unacceptable. Irregardless of apologist excuses!

By dhj_1962

January 30, 2009 10:01 AM | Link to this

stendec, whats your excuse for being an idiot?

By stendec's english teacher

January 30, 2009 10:11 AM | Link to this

There is no such word as “irregardless!” You fail! Go back to junior high school, and don’t forget your meds!

By Alan

January 30, 2009 10:41 AM | Link to this

dhj - I’m not so sure he can come up with one. It’s easy to just spew a lot of words without regard for facts. Especially when the cranial cavity is nothing but an echo chamber.

By Bob

January 30, 2009 11:05 AM | Link to this

Dang. I was sure hoping to read Knobler’s story this a.m. and hear about Kari blaming a monkey puck for that ridiculous one that he snapped his trapper at. That was a carbon copy of what he did in the Rangers series.

oof.

Overall, a great game, one step closer to the ultimate prize of this build year, Tavares.

By Blaster13

January 30, 2009 11:06 AM | Link to this

I would like to know exactly what they are counting as revenue before I hear that they are hemorrhaging cash