Thrashers

By Hockeyfan

August 26, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

Mike,

Just a couple of months ago Don was telling you that Nikulin was a done deal and was coming. Now he tells you that he never really believed Nikulin was coming. Get prepared for more lies… I mean spin

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 26, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

Hockeyfan — Just a couple months ago Waddell also said that he’d been down this road before with this specific player, and that the positive discussions didn’t necessarily mean the player was coming over.

The player and his agent said to reporters (not just Waddell) that the dollars were agreed upon, just needed an AHL clause and a translation. Since then, KHL/NHL went kaput, and Nikulin backed out.

I’m just as disappointed as everyone else that Nikulin isn’t in Atlanta, but this is in no way Waddell “spinning” the situation, or his own fault for not completing the deal. Not from where I stand at least.

By Brendan

August 26, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

I think Waddell said they were in “negotiations,” but that the issue was that he’s getting paid something like $600,000 less to come to Atlanta, if he did come. And not only that, Don Waddell wanted if there were an “out clause” in Nikulin’s Russian contract.

I kinda can’t blame Waddell for that. He wants to be sure he’ll get the player and won’t lose him without compensation. Waddell doesn’t want to lose the player, period the end. Also, I believe Nikulin’s other issue concerned the amount of time he might be subject to spend in the AHL. In short, he wasn’t willing to come all the way across the pond to spend more than two weeks in the minors. It was Nikulin’s alleged stance that if he came over, that he’d be assured that his time would be spent in the NHL, not with Chicago, in the AHL.

Nikulin is probably making more money, (it’s tax free over there) than he would have here, plus he doesn’t have to contend with possibly being stashed in the minors.

I’m not sure, but I don’t think Nikulin would have been subject to a waiver claim if Waddell wanted to re-assign him to Chicago. He is, essentially, a “capped rookie contract.” If Bogosian got sent down, he doesn’t have to clear waivers. He’s protected.

By Libby

August 26, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this

I agree with Ranallo 10. Waddell stated that we should not count on Nikulin until he showed up here in Atlanta. I do not believe that this is Waddell’s fault. HI, Ranallo 10. Still miss you.

By Mike Knobler

August 26, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this

Nikulin is making significantly more money in Russia than he would make in his first season with the Thrashers, at least in guaranteed base pay. He would have been on an entry-level NHL contract for his first year.

By Mike Knobler

August 26, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

By the way, an entry-level contract this year would have been $875,000, and even that would be only for the NHL portion of the contract. Entry-level deals are two-way contracts, with lower pay for minor-league service.

By LAC

August 26, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

don waddell has LIED for years, Why should any of us believe anything from The Master of Disaster ??????????

Remember, Zit “Was going to be a BIG part of this coming season” Remember That LIE?

Just more and more LIES and deception from a bunch of LOSER owners and a GM who could not run a pre-school hockey team in a neighborhood !

don waddell has been and ALWAYS will be a LOSER, and the Thrashers will be much the worse for it in the years to come, When will the fans show these Idiot owners We have had enough of Lies & Deception… Not to mention being Stupid as HELL !

By Hockeyfan

August 26, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this

and we arent hiring Anderson to be our coach either…

By Jason

August 26, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

Thanks for following up on the Nikulin situation Mike. At the very least, barring another move for a dman, this opens the door during training camp for Valabik, or another young prospect to prove himself and earn a roster spot. The D may not scare any other teams in the league yet, but I still thinks it’s a better lineup, with Bogosian, than last years’.

Now I hope Waddell concentrates on bringing in another winger or legit first line center before the season starts. Help out NY and get Gomez so they can sign Sundin. I’m sure we can come up with another couple of Bourret’s in the system for them.

By Sara

August 27, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this

Ahhh living life in tunnel vision…such a waste.

Nikulin was the first one to break the news he was in contract negotiations, he’s the one who talked about the NHL being his childhood dream, his agent is the one who said the compensation had all been agreed upon and Nikulin just wanted a guarantee he’d only play in the NHL, and he’s the one who said he thought it was going to happen this year but then “life dictated its conditions.”

Knobler has Waddell talked to Nikulin’s camp at all about why he didn’t come over? I know they are saying the money but is that just carry-over speculation becuase of his prior-year decisions or what they were told? Unreal, the guy agrees to the compensation part of the package, knowing it’s less money initially, then does a 180? Maybe it is better if he stays in Russia…permanently.

By GaVaHokie

August 27, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Remember, Zit “Was going to be a BIG part of this coming season” Remember That LIE?

How is Zhitnik putting up career low numbers Waddell’s fault either?

By Jimbo

August 27, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

Nikulin will live to regret his decision. With the new impending cold war, he will never have another chance to leave and play elsewhere without risking his life. Oh yeh, by the way, that “significant more money” that he is making in Russia….go ahead and plan on 75% of that going to the state. Its called redistribution of wealth. I’ll close this by saying it wouldn’t have mattered….the Thrashers are done until DW gets his azz out of own anyway. Good luck on another loser season Atlanta.

By GaVaHokie

August 27, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this

Unreal, the guy agrees to the compensation part of the package, knowing it’s less money initially, then does a 180? Maybe it is better if he stays in Russia…permanently.

I agree… screw him. If money is all that matters to him, than stay home.

Just a one year commitment at $850,000 (plus bonuses) with solid play could garner him a multi-year contract worth $3-$5 million a year with a chance to be among the elite in the sport… whatever, it’s his legacy, not mine.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 27, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Personally, I don’t think it came down to money, but rather other reasons (as we’ve discussed previously). The player and his agent have known all along what they’re entitled by the CBA, so there’s no reason for them to be shocked by the Entry Level Contract rules stipulated in that CBA.

I’m still open to Nikulin coming to Atlanta, but just as we’ve seen this year (and last year), there’s no sense in holding our breath over his addition to the roster. Until he lands at Hartsfield-Jackson International, passes customs, and meets face-to-face with the coaches, I will not consider it a done deal. That goes for next year, the year after, etc.

Does anyone remember the rule about how many (if any) games a player can play internationally before they’re not allowed to suit up for the NHL? I remember facing that deadline when Kovalchuk last re-signed, but I can’t remember what the stipulation was. Can anyone assist with that?

By Sara

August 27, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

How is Zhitnik putting up career low numbers Waddell’s fault either?

I believe LAC is actually referring to the comment Waddell made this off-season about Zhitnik being an important part of our future, and then 3 days later bought his contract out. I suppose if one considers that it was in fact important to our future to give Zhitnik the boot then technically speaking Waddell might have been correct….

By Sara

August 27, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

Does anyone remember the rule about how many (if any) games a player can play internationally before they’re not allowed to suit up for the NHL? I remember facing that deadline when Kovalchuk last re-signed, but I can’t remember what the stipulation was. Can anyone assist with that?

Off-hand I can’t either but I suspect it’s a moot point at this juncture with all the crap between the NHL and KHL.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

Don Waddell’s words per Mike’s first interview with him on this:

“We’re encouraged. We would like to add this player. We’ve been in this spot before, though. I caution you. The player has changed his mind before. The hope would be that he would sign the deal and we would move on.”

That doesn’t sound at all like Waddell talking about a done deal.

I would be more worried about the spin that “sportwriters” like Alan Muir are putting on.

By Bob

August 27, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

the guy agrees to the compensation part of the package, knowing it’s less money initially, then does a 180?

It makes perfect sense to me. The Good Ilya talks to Waffler Ilya during the World Championships last year “come comrade, good vodka in Atlanta, and many little cutie pies too, plus Don and Bruce say we make big signings, come be part”.

Waffler Ilya agrees to terms. July 1st comes and goes and Campbell thumbs his nose at us, Rolston thumbs his nose, Lord knows who all else did and we wind up with the roster we wind up with and Waffler Ilya says “nyet, I no play for those stinkbombs”. Perfectly logical why he would agree to terms and then reneg.

Get prepared for more lies… I mean spin

Of course, why would that change now. That’s all Waddell has done from Day 1. 5 year plans, playoff guarantees, badmouths good players on their way out of town saying we don’t need them, Todd White is a #1 center, on and on, if there’s one thing that is consistent about the guy is his ability to blow sunshine up naive people’s rears. He’ll promise the moon and when he inevitably fails year after year, it’s never his fault and there’s always an excuse. Everybody has an excuse and they all just plain stink, results matter, not words.

At the end of the day, WaddellSpeak is just something you have to turn a deaf ear to. Just pay no attention to what the guy says, he is the ultimate Boy Who Cried Wolf by now, anyone that puts any credence into what comes out of the guy’s mouth deserves the inevitable disappointment that will come.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Who exactly is putting all this faith in Waddell’s words Bob? With the internet being what it is today and the access we have to information, stats, youtube videos, other blogs, you would have to be idiotic to take anyone’s word without going and doing a simple search yourself. Taking any GM’s word without hearing someone else’s opinion is like going to a car salesman without checking the car out on cars.com, bluebook, etc first.

By Spud Webb

August 27, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

I think we all want DW out of town, along with the ASG. I don’t think he lied about the Nikulin situation, but that is a moot point the guy isn’t going to be here. Here is my beef. I swear (please anyone correct me if I’m wrong) that at the end of the season meeting with season ticket holders that we were told we’d get a FIRST LINE CENTER and TWO FRONT END D-MEN? I am not a season ticket holder and wasn’t there, so that is I guess second hand information, so anyone please jump in and correct me. Anyone jump in, because I don’t recall the owner who was with DW when this was stated? To me that is a blatent lie, we are just going to get to the league minimum in salary cap?? It appears (key work) that we have been decieved since we didn’t get either thing we we’re promised. Hainsey is an upgrade, no doubt, but FAR from a top 2 dman. I won’t even get into the center situation, this is a debacle. I don’t care that Campbell didn’t come and we offered money. I need results, not “we tried”. Knobs I’m being serious here, will you please ask DW how he possibly thinks that Kovy will stay here when we keep running out Todd White or any other 4th line center that we put on our 1st line? I love the Thrashers but cannot put into words the frustration I have with all of this. We are totally accepting being at BEST mediocore, at worst, one of the worst teams in the league. I try to be positive but at this point I have no control.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 27, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

So if Sundin doesn’t sign with Montreal, Toronto, New York, Philadelphia or Colorado, is that him thumbing his nose at the teams he turned down? Or is that more logically him accepting the offer that best fit his preferences, despite what the other teams could offer him??

30 teams have a shot at every UFA, and 1 team wins. Just because you finish second (or are 1 of 12 teams who offered contracts) doesn’t mean your team got a nose thumbed at it.

Take off the blinders, look at the situation, then form an unbiased opinion. For now you’re too busy trying to find an excuse for why everything is Waddell’s fault, than to actually think there is a lot more involved in every situation beyond what you feel about the roster/team/GM.

But you’re right, Waddell does have a way of saying things that he eventually has to eat his words on. Call it what you want, I just think it’s him trying to please everyone but eventually having to face the facts that he has to go against his word. I’m sure he doesn’t enjoy saying one thing then turning around and doing another…so I’d guess there’s more involved than just him trying to pretty things up for your consumption.

By GaVaHokie

August 27, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

Gee… another GM says he’s content with his line-up going into camp. Could it be that all GM’s speak this way? Perhaps not jumping the gun on drastic changes until you see what you have first?

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

I have to say first that you were one of my favorite dunkers Spud. As for the quotes as to what was promised us, does anyone have anything that Waddell said this or Waddell said that? I have only heard second hand information as well, I would love for someone to come on here and point to a link where we had something promised to us, that is something we can hold his feet to the fire.

That said, if I have to choose a Waddell who lied about Zhitnik and then cut Zhitnik, or choose a Waddell who won’t change his stance and Zhitnik is still on the team, I think everyone here would rather have a GM who changed his stance and cut Zhitnik.

By GaVaHokie

August 27, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

30 teams have a shot at every UFA, and 1 team wins.

Exactly, does everyone think we have first dibs on every UFA and we just choose to sign Ronald Petrovicky instead or something?! The Brian Campbell situation was a GLOWING example of what Waddell faces every year… big contract in Atlanta or a chance to play for an Original Six team that “I’ve dreamed of my whole life”.

These elite players don’t grow up in Saskatoon and Quebec dreaming of being stars in the Southeast conference. They want to A) play for Toronto, Edmonton or Montreal B)settle for Calgary, Ottawa or Vancouver C) an Original Six team will do, and finally D) listen to other offers.

By Sara

August 27, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

Spud Webb Bruce Levenson was the owner present at that Town Hall meeting. That would be the one who called an STH a “liar” and “smart@ss” to his face re: ticket prices in Boston - what a winner!

Promising anything is stupid because you are then backed into a corner. Frankly, there weren’t enough top D or C prospects on the free market this year to guarantee anybody squat. In fact, the only “high calibre” centers available are all “old” and highly priced - which is completely pointless. We were better off sitting pat. That’s also what you get when you start trying to appease people. As much as any upset fan wants to complain, the LAST thing the owners/GM needs to be doing is just signing people willy-nilly to attempt to make some unhappy people happy again. Odds of them also managing to sign the right players for the right prices are slim to none under those circumstances, which only screws the team more, which only re-ignites the ire of the ones you were trying to mollify in the first place.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

So Sara what was actually promised or was anything actually promised at all then?

By Sara

August 27, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Ryan Here ya go…

Don knows we suck and wants to add 2 top defenseman and a top forward for next year. Bruce agreed. I have no idea who will want to come here. Don reminded us that we won’t be the only ones bidding on these people. And that some might get signed before the UFA date. But Don has a list of who he wants.

That came from Mark Holland, a long-time STH. The Falconer even refers people to Holland’s write-up on his blog discussing the THM. Now The Falconer referred to an “explicit promise” for two top defenders and a top forward (not center, just forward), but he does not say specifically if either Waddell or Levenson or both made the “promise.”

By GaVaHokie

August 27, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Negotiating with free agents comes down to this list right here. And most of the superstars in the league have the same agents… J.P. Barry, Scott Lites, Scott Greenspun, Chris Turnbull, Ritchie Winter, etc.

Believe me, Waddell talks to ALL of them… “would such and such player consider Atlanta for X amount of money?” And they’ll reply, “that player will only consider an Original Six team” or “they’ve narrowed their list to only 4 teams they’ll consider” or, in Brian Campbell’s case, “he’d really like to stay close to home, but he’s willing to listen to all offers.”

And maybe that Agent and that Player takes you to the woodshed and uses you to negotiate a deal in Chicago… that’s the nature of the business.

But that agent has other clients, and they’ll turn around and say, “now while I can’t get you Forsberg, we also represent Jason Williams? Have you considered him? He’s got a lot of upside and plenty to prove.” etc.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Thanks Sara, but this sounds like a long case of semantics along with he said/she said that doesn’t really prove much. Yes, he WANTS someone but did he PROMISE someone? Now we get into the game of whether or not Williams is a “top” forward, is Hainsey a “top” defenseman, how do we classify Valabik/Bogosian if they make the team. Just because someone plays on the top line doesn’t mean they are a top forward. Again, this is a semantics trap.

By Sara

August 27, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Ryan I won’t disagree with you on any of that. And at the end of the day, I don’t think it matters. The roster is what it is, there is no changing it - not significantly, not at this point without something truly bizarre happening. The owners still own this team, Waddell is still the GM, and none of that is likely to change in the forseeable future.

So as a fan you have two choices. Be p** and sit at home making your statement to the owners all season (and hope that they notice). Or, p** or not, come to games, check out the new kids, hang with your fellow Thrasher fans, marvel over the greatness that is Ilya Kovalchuk (who we may or may not have still two years from now), and enjoy whatever level of NHL hockey we have in the ATL, good, bad, or in between.

By Spud Webb

August 27, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

Sara thanks for the info and I agree, “at the endof the day, I don’t think it matters”. Ryan is also correct, long case of semantics. I’m sure I will go to my 20 games and hope for the best!! UGGGGGGGGGG I’m getting used to this, being from Buffalo and all!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

I pegged a signon of “Spud Webb” as an old Flames fan/someone with roots here for sure, not someone from Buffalo. There are a couple posters here from up there and on the other Thrashers blogs too it seems.

I’m with both you and Sara that I still like watching the games at the arena and will enjoy that. I don’t think my 10-20 games a year is going to make a statement. Plus if they ever did breakout this year and I missed it I would never forgive myself after going through all these other years.

By ThrasherNY

August 27, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT): Call me crazy but I happen to think that the majority of top UFA players consider two primary variables when deciding which franchise to sign with; the economics of the deal and the possibility of getting their name on the Cup. The concept of us having a “nose thumbed at us” is based on the report that we offerred said player in question a more lucrative contract and he opted for less money to have a shot at having his name on the Cup. I consider that to be a characterization of our club and most certainly some nose action. The Hossa situation underscores this point even further. Here is a guy who already had roots in the community and opted for less money to play elsewhere. By your reasoning are you argueing that Hossa did not thumb his nose at us or the Penquins?

GaVaHokie I just dont believe the original six have this tremendous edge because of there history. In a purely hypothetical situation if you supposed we had Detroit’s current roster and they had our current roster I have little doubt that top UFAs would have been knocking on our doors first and looking to them second. We are not off the list because of our geographical prowess, lack of original six status, history or division. It is because we have a weak roster this season. We also dont have a lot of upside to sell anyone on. Love my team but facts are facts. I dont think there are many people out there who would bet a dollar at a 10x payout on the Thrashers to hoist the Cup this season.

By RS

August 27, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

According to the Russian story, Nikulin said his “life situation changed”. Sounds to me like his wife didn’t want to come/got pregnant to keep him from coming. He is close friends with Alexander Ovechkin, and Ovechkin tried to change his mind, but after he explained this “reason” to him he said Ovechkin understood.

Be interesting to see if he comes over next year when he’s 27 and plays for the Capitals.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Sakic signed. Doesn’t mean much to us but maybe this will lead to a Sundin signing soon which means other pieces that can effect us will fall into place.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Sakic just signed. That doesn’t really matter much to us. But maybe it will lead to a Sundin signing which could have a domino effect on some other pieces that can effect us. Boy I want this season to start soon.

By Ryan

August 27, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Sorry for the double post. My browser jammed up and I didn’t see that first one go through. At least you can see I’m not some goof hitting the button over and over.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 27, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

ThrasherNY — By your point you’re saying Campbell thought that the Chicago Blackhawks are CLOSER to winning a Stanley Cup than the San Jose Sharks. I’m not calling you crazy, nor am I disagreeing with your logic, but when a player narrows down his short list to only 2 teams in the NHL, and decides upon one because it’s closer to his family (by his own admission), then I would be willing to believe the player’s words than other people’s opinions (which in this case are often muddied by their dislike for the man in charge).

Hossa did not nose up the Penguins, he went where he wanted to go. He’s a FREE agent, thus he can pick where he wants to play. He WANTED to play in Detroit, and his decision was not based on money, so in my opinion he did nothing in the way of slighting the Penguins by going to the team he wanted to play for.

As for the Original Six argument…why do you think players are signing in places like Toronto, New York, Montreal, etc…despite their lack of recent post season success? Some cities are a draw for hockey players, others are not. The CITY of Atlanta and it’s lacking in hockey history is one of the reasons players likely do not choose this city over the others. Tampa Bay being the exception, but how many Tier I Free Agents signed in Carolina this past offseason, or in Nashville, or in Florida? Tampa Bay had to poach and overpay, but they got some players to come their way…while Washington, Carolina, Florida, Atlanta, and Nashville were all left in the dark.

Do you think that’s coincidence, or do you think just perhaps players don’t enjoy playing so far away from home (when most of them are Canadian)? Phoenix’s biggest offseason acquisition was by trade. Some teams, Atlanta included, have to battle with UFAs based on location AS WELL AS the merits of the team.

By Bob

August 27, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

an “explicit promise” for two top defenders and a top forward (not center, just forward)

Come on, Donnie Boy didn’t reneg on his promise. He kept it. He signed Williams, a top forward, and he added Hainsey and Bogosian.

If you guys haven’t figured out WaddellSpeak by now, I feel sorry for you. The guy is full of it, always has been. I guess that’s another reason the owner keeps this version of P.T. Barnum around, there’s a sucker born every minute that still eats his nonsense up.

Excuses all suck. No more words out of Waddell or Levenson matter. One thing matters. Just win, baby

I’ll be at home till they’re ready to get serious and bring a serious GM in here. In the meantime, don’t pay attention to him, or do, your choice but if you do have fun listening to Teflon Don blow more sunshine up your rear. Actions matter, not words. And his actions are clear as day to anyone that wants to take an objective look at it. Excuses are for losers. Just win, baby

By Bob

August 27, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

I happen to think that the majority of top UFA players consider two primary variables when deciding which franchise to sign with; the economics of the deal and the possibility of getting their name on the Cup

Yep, spot on. You’ve got the picture, it’s not that hard, in fact, it’s pretty simple.

One could sit here all day and type all these wasted words and come up with a million different excuses. Excuses are for losers.

Simple fact of the matter is this team has consistently floundered under Waddell and he has not built an environment here that is a winner, and now no one of value wants to come here (or stay here).

Just win, baby

By NASCAR Dave

August 27, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

So much for the other Ilya

WHAT??? And you’re surprised about that??? LOL

I told every single one of you from the start that NIKULIN was NEVER coming here… Now all the sheep can do is come up with clever reasons why he didn’t come here like the Military operations in South Ossetia had something to do with it…. LMAO

Absolutely hilarious how naive some of you fools are! LOL

Got that Stanley Cup ready yet???

By LAC

August 27, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this

Well the Old gava is back for sure…

Can you not read ? I made a statement based on facts and direct comments by one don waddell. They were in facts untruths, so how else would you and sara put it ?

When you say one thing and then do the direct opposite what is that called ?

A Lie and waddell has been lying to All of us for so long now, it is a shame.

By GaVaHokie

August 28, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this

LAC… it must be a nervous habit I suppose. You’re like a whack-a-mole to me. Everytime I see you pop your head up, I have to hit it with a hammer.

I just keep seeing little LAC, Sage, and Nascar heads bobbing up and down… bonk, bonk, bonk.

Back on subject… I still think (and maybe Waddell did too) that Zhitnik could have turned it around and gotten back on track next year. His numbers this past year were so WAY off average, it was ridiculous…

So, maybe, “I think Zhitnik could be a big part of this season”… but in the end, in my own words, “it wasn’t worth the gamble.”

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 28, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

I found it interesting that in the Custance interview of Barry Melrose, he names Zhitnik as one of the “great defenders” he’s worked with in the past (along with Zubov and Blake).

By Ryan

August 28, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

When Zhitnik played for Melrose it was before he broke out in this league. No one doubts that he was the #1 defensemen on those Sabre teams that were in the conf finals and went to the cup finals. Saying that Zhitnik, circa 2008, is a great defender would be “waddellspeak”.

By ThrasherNY

August 28, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT) I think we have a semantics thing going in this arguement. I could conceede the Campbell arguement is not as solid a case for the ‘thumbing’ issue but most certainly I see the Hossa - Penquins situation as one. I say semantics as I would sight the exact same reason for why Hossa did thumb his nose as he made a choice to join Detroit, the team he wanted to play with for reportedly less money. I dont see that as an independnet event, of which I agree he has the choice to make, but as a I either take option A or option B. Under option A I make more money but I just dont think they are as competitive a team. The second part of the sentence is the ‘thumbing’ to me. While we have already seen round one of the dominance arguement play out I have to think the Penquins like the situation they are in with respects to near term competitiveness.

On the Original Six front I can see how that factor and demographics may play a bigger role in middle or low tier guys but I retain my opinion that the top UFAs would surely love to come to Atlanta if we had Detroit’s current roster / coach / GM. So for me it can not be sighted as the deciding factor. Now I will surely contest that if we had an identical roster to an Original Six and made a similar economic offer the player would default to them or a Canadian squad.

I would turn the coin

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 28, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

ThrasherNY — Perhaps you’re right, I’m probably being a little too specific with this difference.

I agree with many of your points, specifically this one…”top UFAs would surely love to come to Atlanta if we had Detroit’s current roster / coach / GM.”

However, I disagree that if all roster and management situations were even that a player would decide to play in Atlanta before playing in Canada or for a team with some true hockey history. I just don’t see many Canadians clamoring to play in this city (you think it’s because of the team, I think that’s only one of many factors), and I haven’t seen many quotes from players signed in Atlanta where they were tremendously happy to be playing in Atlanta.

Take Heatley for example…he went to Ottawa, to a contender, and the first thing he mentioned when asked about being in Ottawa was how much he loves the city and the fans. There’s no way to compete with that…most Canadian teams have sold out their stadiums for ages (even with crappy rosters/GMs/coaches…think Toronto) but beyond Tampa Bay not many teams in the Southeast can sell out a game consistently. Winning brings people to the stadium, somewhat, but I don’t think that winning a Stanley Cup and continually competing for a division championship has helped the Carolina Hurricanes acquire big talent from the UFA pool. This is the first year Tampa Bay made a big splash in the UFA frenzy, and they too have won a cup and been consistently competitive.

Management can change the opinion of some players, but a simple GM swap or ownership change will not send the Tier I UFAs to Atlanta in droves…or at least that’s my opinion.

If Atlanta couldn’t sign any important UFAs after the previous two seasons (the best in their short history), then I don’t think winning/competitiveness/roster makeup is what truly motivates the important UFAs. Any center available could’ve played alongside Hossa and Kovalchuk, any defender could’ve played on the blueline feeding those players…yet nobody seemed to be interested in coming. Sure, it’s possible Waddell never bothered to call them, or was never given the greenlight on the spending required to attain them, or was shot down as soon as he identified himself…but when Bobby Holik is the best UFA signed by the Thrashers, there’s something wrong that can’t just be the GM.

Go through the list, and mark off how many UFAs over the past few years have actually gone to a non-traditional hockey market, and which decided upon Canada or the tradition rich cities. I guarantee the percentage of impact players is higher in the cities with history and/or location on their side.

As for Hossa, my opinion simply differs than yours, I don’t think there’s a common ground. I feel he in no way slighted Pittsburgh, as he had no debt to them beyond fans’ opinions of where a player should sign. He was offered big money to play there, a team that brought him to his first Stanley Cup finals and has the top 1-2 center tandem in the NHL, and he decided upon Detroit, the one team better than Pittsburgh last season (based on the playoffs). I think that’s evidence of him deciding with his heart. True, he might see Detroit as the one city that could win him The Cup…but he could also see it as the one city he’s always wanted to play for. We don’t know, nor will we unless we ask him. Personally, I think he wanted to play in Detroit more than in Pittsburgh, period.

By Ryan

August 28, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

I think the one key phrase that you guys are missing ranollo and ThrasherNY in your semantics argument is “all things being equal”. So, if the rosters were equal, if the money was the same, etc, would an original 6 city be the deciding factor. Of course. Now, if things were slightly less equal for the original 6 team, how much would that weigh in to give favor to them and still get the star player is what you have to calculate.

I think another key point one of you said about all this that made me think was that we didn’t get thumbed by Campbell for Chicago for cup potential, roster makeup, etc. Otherwise he clearly would’be stayed in San Jose and they would’ve never needed Boyle or Blake.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 28, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

Ryan — ThrasherNY conceeded the Campbell point, but I’m glad that aspect got you thinking about it too.

It’s obviously just a difference of opinion, I think I understand his now, and I hope he understands mine. That’s good enough for me.

By Sara

August 28, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this

Winning brings people to the stadium, somewhat, but I don’t think that winning a Stanley Cup and continually competing for a division championship has helped the Carolina Hurricanes acquire big talent from the UFA pool. This is the first year Tampa Bay made a big splash in the UFA frenzy, and they too have won a cup and been consistently competitive.

Have a looksie for yourselves

I didn’t go way far back - only 2003-2008 - but that covers both SE Championships. It covers the entire SE division + Nashville and Phoenix.

By Sara

August 28, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

You might notice some names missing from those lists you would expect to see, like Malone for TB this year. But that list is STRICTLY newly signed UFAs - Malone was technically an RFA signing. Include him in your mind if you will, he’s just not going to be on the chart kind of thing.

By ThrasherNY

August 28, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT) & Ryan I fully understand the arguement that Original Six and Canada are big draws we have to overcome as a SE franchise. So we are all on the same page I think.

I may be proving your point but I will take my arguement to the extreme in saying that I think the competitveness of the club played a role in Heatley’s departure. I preface that with it being a small role but none the less. The crash was by all means the catalyst and the avoidence of the media and proximity to family were the primary drivers but the p** on Atlanta after jumping makes me think our franchise status played a part.

To be clear though I do think that the ultimate health of the franchise is the turning factor and that we are actually in a favorable position to improve our standing in that regard in the near term. This offseason we made all the right moves based on what the market handed us. They may now like us now but we acted like responsible adults and took our lumps without making rash and harmful moves. Thank goodness accountability is not a pressing thing in our market.

Though, I will never concede it was right to leave Waddell as GM in light of our history. No matter the circumstance he has not produced and he is in a role that is suppose to be highly results orientated. I get that that logic depends on perspective and I get that he has produced results to our risk averse owners. It just doesnt float my boat as a fan.

We do have a good looking defense unit now with good future potential. We have one the best goalie situations in the league with two young studs and a good veteran to help in their developement. We have a low payroll. The only glaring problem is that I cant stop losing sleep over our franchise player not seeing believing in the plan and signing the monster deal he is worth with our franchise. Hopefully Anderson is the guy the bridges that gap and makes this team of average joes into a great team.

By Ryan

August 28, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

I’ll add as well that Tampa only sold out consistently after they won the cup. I went to a game there the year they won it, there were 20 of us from Atlanta and we had prime seats almost up against the glass with room all around us. Place wasn’t sold out by any means. But they were around the middle of the pack up until then for attendance. The 2 years after the cup they did well and even this past season they slipped. If they have another lottery year with that open defense look for them to slip again.

By Brendan

August 28, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

I’ll go ya one better. I think Hossa wanted to play for Detroit the moment he entered the league. It was 1997, or thereabouts, when Hossa was drafted. That’s right about the time the Red Wings were winning back-to-back Cups. I think Hossa sized up the ownership, scouts, GM, hockey climate, etc., and thought, “Someday, some way, I’m gonna play for that team.”

He wouldn’t get the chance to choose until July 1, 2008, about a decade later. That’s how restricted free agency works, barring an offersheet. In this regard, I don’t feel Hossa slighted anybody. But rather, that he merely pursued his dream. If I could waive my magic wand, I’d wish for EVERYONE to get their dreams to come true.

Well, lest of course their dreams included my personal demise. Then, I wouldn’t be in favor of it so much.

By GaVaHokie

August 29, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

Here’s the latest from Eklund… should be interesting to watch this unfold today. I agree with him that Meszaros to NJ makes more sense, but that team is against the cap and spending WAY more than they can operate on. I would expect them to turnaround and trade Gionta and maybe even Madden.

I think Atlanta makes a lot of sense to me… stack the woodshed for training camp and preseason, then make some moves as camp lets out.

By ThrasherNY

August 29, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Sara I think your points on the Carolina and Tampa success are valid. I am really not knowledgable enough to know what needs they may have been trying to fill and were not successful in attracting. I know with respects to Tampa they already had there big three absorbing a boat load of cash and I dont think they were in any position to make moves on top UFAs. None the less the Carolina situation is a plausable scenario to debunk my “if you win they will join” theory.

GaVaHokie I enjoyed the Eklund action as I need a warm and fuzzy this morning. I would hope that it is truly NJ that made the offer and as that as you have detailed above we can get in some sort of trade involving Gionta or Madden as you elude. Gionta could be the piece of the puzzle that makes Kovy sign up to be a Thrasher for life. That is assuming we could ink him to a new deal and of course that he would gel opposite Kovy.

I cant complain with bringing in Meszaros via offer sheet in light of our last conversation but my first inclination is to let NJ take on that sacrafice.

And even though Madden is the elder of the two options above and the less desireable to me I wouldnt be unhappy with his presense on Kovy’s line. I think his production could get a bump dishing the puck to Kovy and Kovy could most cetainly increase his cherry picking opportunities with the likes of Madden’s defensive prowess working along side him.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

I don’t believe Meszaros will be let go, he wants to play in Ottawa per him and his agent. Signing an offer sheet, especially one that hasn’t been confirmed, could be just like Vanek doing it two years back.

Ottawa would be unwise letting him go, no matter the return.

And if it was Waddell who sent the offer sheet (I doubt it), hats off to him for growing a pair in regards to RFAs.

ThrashersNY — We’ve gone through a debate about Heatley before, and in my research I was not able to find one shred of evidence where Heatley said anything negative about Atlanta, in a way that fans here could be so enraged. I do remember seeing him compliment Ottawa fans, but I don’t remember him saying anything bad about Atlanta. If you could point me to something that would be great, as I don’t remember the situation and the negative words the same way others in Atlanta seem to. I think Brendan or R.Stroz said the statement in question was made during an interview or the press conference, and was not in print. Maybe that helps?

Regarding the “right move” with Waddell as GM, I think I have to agree with you. I’ve resigned myself to understanding the ASG focuses on the bottom line, and cares little about winning divisions or playoff games (which dumbfounds me, since those goals would drive revenue up). Since I now believe they’re a bottom line organization, I don’t think they’re going to fire Waddell unless he earns it (i.e. speaks against them, resigns, has another lottery draft year). This offseason had one prime candidate for his role, in my opinion, Dave Nonis.

Nonis’s record isn’t sterling, but many around the league believe he saved Vancouver from the mess Burke left the franchise in (Burke’s best friend, Kevin Lowe, alluded to this in their public fued this offseason). In my opinion Nonis would’ve been a great GM hire, and Waddell and the ASG could’ve done the move of promoting Waddell to a position that best suits him and his financially responsible/budget following skill sets.

Ideally Bowman would’ve been hired, but we all know that’s impossible now. Nonis was hired by Anaheim with an out clause in case he’s given a GM position elsewhere. My new hope is for Yzerman to get the GM position in Atlanta (his name alone will bring a lot to the table), and Waddell is promoted or moved laterally.

I know Waddell is not perfect, but I do think he brings plenty of experience and insight to his role as GM. I think he’d be well suited for a position as an advisor to the GM, and to the ownership group. I know the ASG said they didn’t need that position when they fired/forcefully resigned Mullin, but I think it’s a good position since this ownership is useless when it comes to making decisions that benefit either franchise they own.

By GaVaHokie

August 29, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

ThrasherNY… I agree, I’d like Gionta playing on Kovy’s line. You can either have Brett Sterling who is “like” Brian Gionta, or you can go out and get Brian Gionta himself.

But I wouldn’t complain if we signed Meszaros to an offer sheet and STILL went out and got Brian Gionta… the simple fact is, NJ has to move some players regardless if they made an offer to Meszaros or not.

By ThrasherNY

August 29, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT) I can remember the press conference or interview in which Heatley took a dig at our club so I can not back up my point but hopefully someone else can come to my rescue. It was not a major league dig but none the less I remember feeling like he was wizzing in our general direction. To be clear though I am not a fan who boos Heatley so hopefully that will give you a feel for the strength in which I felt the dig merited. I just remember putting the elusive comment in combination with the way Atlanta and Thrasher nation had embraced Heatley post crash and thinking why the demand to be traded?

I completely agree with respects to Nonis. And as i said above I understand the arguement that Waddell is great at delivering hope with a limited budget. And executing against that budget. I sometimes question my own logic on that front because I often wonder how he doesnt get called out on the dis-economic deals such as Zhitnik, Rucchin or Holik but I guess you have to have some slack. He made the moves in good faith and highsight is a powerful tool.

I would be more than happy if DW was moved into the advisor to the GM role with budgetary oversight. I would even go so far as to say that he is improving. I think it was Brendan who posted about the ASG’s master plan to let him learn on the job in an environment which he didnt fear losing his job. Though it sucks in the short term maybe I will be eating my words in the future. If that is the master plan I just have to hope that DW’s learning curve is shaped like a hockey stick. I mean I look at the roster right now and think if this was a brand new GM I would actually like him. Unfortunately we have all been looking on for the preceeding decade and we have the history of two failed attempts to reference as work product.

By Bob

August 29, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

I can remember the press conference or interview in which Heatley took a dig at our club so I can not back up my point but hopefully someone else can come to my rescue. It was not a major league dig but none the less I remember feeling like he was wizzing in our general direction

Yep, despite what the terminally clueless refuse to believe, I remember hearing the words as well, as did many of our fellow fans. The moment he stepped off the plane in Ottawa he gave us all the proverbial back of his hand saying someting like “it’s great to be somewhere where the fans actually know what’s going on with hockey.” And that after we all supported him, for his dreadful mistake that one night. That is why he was booed merciouslessly, and why he’ll continue to be booed.

If Waddell signed Meszaros to a $5m offer sheet, then he has to give up our #1 and our shot at Tavares next year, I refuse to believe that even Waddell is that brain dead, but hey, the guy suprises me all the time.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

ThrasherNY — Can’t disagree with you there.

Regarding Heatley, the best I could find was how he made a statement about playing in Ottawa as (paraphrased) “playing in a city that knows hockey”.

I can see how some people consider that a dig, but many people out there are not so lenient as you when it comes to Heatley’s diss…so I figure there was more than just the one paraphrased quote (which is completely truthful) that fans are referring to when booing or hating on Heatley.

I’m guessing people will boo Hossa too, but personally I just see no point in it. I’m sure they’re both enjoying their time out of Atlanta, and truly couldn’t care if 5000 fans don’t like them…they have 20,000+ at their current city that do.

Brendan — I wouldn’t buy your argument about Hossa always wanting to play for Detroit, because if so he wouldn’t have signed long term in Ottawa (prior to the trade). He could’ve stuck to a one or two year deal, and then gone his merry way to Detroit. Instead he signed for three years and was surprised he was dealt. So no, I don’t think he always wanted to be there, but perhaps his time in Atlanta made him yearn for a truly competitive team that sold out nearly every game for 3 years straight (or more, I can’t remember the record).

By Ryan

August 29, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Why give up that shot at Tavares when we could give that playing time to Valabik or Bogosian? Not to mention the money and 2nd and/or 3rd round picks that might get thrown in also.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

The moment he stepped off the plane in Ottawa he gave us all the proverbial back of his hand saying someting like “it’s great to be somewhere where the fans actually know what’s going on with hockey.”

The problem is that you state “something like”. You took it negatively, that’s completely understandable, but for those who are not offended by a player telling the truth, it doesn’t burn quite so bad as those who get their feelings hurt by a professional athlete.

What’s more, you can’t show anybody exactly what he said. You can only “remember” something…and we all know memory gets affected by many things, including the memory holder’s state of mind.

If that is what he said, verbatim, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Believe it or not hockey fans living in Ottawa greatly outnumbers hockey fans living in Atlanta. Hockey fans that attend games of all levels greatly outnumbers those in Atlanta. Heatley left when this team was barely competitive, and the rafters weren’t exactly close to full in Atlanta…so it’s not UNTRUE that he would think Ottawa has more fans, nor is it untrue that he thinks Ottawa has a larger quantity of knowledgeable fans. It’s the truth, no matter how delivered or who from.

If truth hurts your feelings, go right ahead and boo Heatley. If you’re a grown individual who can cope with the harsh truths of life, maybe you’ll just sip your beer during the game (even at home) instead of wasting energy on a person who doesn’t care what you or a small amount of other people “truly” feel.

Sheesh, you sound like a third grader…I’m sorry meanie Heatley hurt your feelings, here’s a lollipop, now go play on the swing set.

By ThrasherNY

August 29, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

Bob I also dont like the thought of giving up our #1 pick in order to sign Meszaros but that being said I could not say I am strongly opposed. In signing Meszaros we would have a grade A defensive unit. With the four biggest pieces locked in long term and plenty of depth to fill in the bottom pariing. Put that in combination with our goalie situation for which I also grade an A and we are looking like a team that warrants Kovy for life.

I just dont put much stock in the Tavares sweepstakes option. I think we are a better team than absolute bottom and though it is a draft and we have had success before in that arena I just dont like the math. My slight arguement against the Meszaros thing is that I dont think $5m will get it done. A more realistic offer sheet, one that will not allow Ottawa to ink it and move on would have to be in a much higher range. Big picture we would have to over-pay his market rate for the steal. My limited understanding is that has a ripple effect on the picks given up as well.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

ThrasherNY — From all reports I’ve read Meszaros has been offered in the neighborhood of $3.5M annually, and he wanted $4.5M annually. A $5M offer is quite higher than what Ottawa wanted to spend, so I think it’s a sufficient offer if the team who made it intends to tie the hands of Ottawa (and potentially win the rights to the player).

Of course, this entire offer sheet situation has yet to be substantiated…The Hockey News is the only place I’ve seen it mentioned first hand, and thus far they could not confirm it through the team or the player’s agent. At this stage, it’s still a rumor.

By Ryan

August 29, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

As for Heatley saying something like “the fans in Ottawa are great” doesn’t every new player/coach say something positive about his new city for the team he just joined? To use another local analogy, what did Bobby Petrino say about Atlanta when he first came here, then what did he say about Arkansas when he left here? Probably gushing about the new city/team/fans both times. I’m sure when Hossa first got here he said something to someone along the lines of “I’m happy to be here” just to put the PR spin on it. It sounds like he was just trying to make that positive press conference statement about Ottawa when he arrived. Maybe he screwed up but he didn’t have a political analyst whispering in his ears saying “that might be misinterpreted”.

By GaVaHokie

August 29, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Real teams with real character don’t aim for #1 draft picks… if you can give up a first round draft pick to get a solid 23-year old blueliner that will make your team competitive, you do it.

Besides the Top 5 picks of the draft are lottery balls… so not only do you have to tank the season, but you have to be lucky too.

Besides, Tavares could gain 10 lbs, get out of shape, blow out a knee or have a bad year in the next 10 months and drop to #5 like Kessel or #20 like Esposito.

By ThrasherNY

August 29, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT) I cant pull the source out of the depths of the internet world but if my memory serves me corrrectly it was actually a comment made in a subsequent interview that was the kicker. As i said above though I dont boo Heatley. I just remember feeling slightly erked that we were forced into a bad bargaining position by him and then “the comment” made me say hey this guy may have used this terrible tragedy to his advantage. That kinda hurt a little when I am wearing my die hard Thrasher fan hat.

I can not invision why anyone would boo Hossa. The only possible sour spot was that he mailed it in last season. But when you follow that arguement to its end his play, or lack of it, netted us Bogo. The worst possible situation for us in respects to our future would have been to be a bubble team not capable of moving him and then losing him for nothing in FA. That is about where we would have been if Hossa and Kozlov’s number jump to prior levels. As such he did us a favor.

I am in the complete opposite camp. He was a great player while on the team. A real classy guy. He called out DW and did what he could to help push for his firing by tastefully pointing out our teams lack of direction. Lastly, he presented us with maximun return upon his departure. Thanks to his efforts I now also know that it is futile to think DW is going anywhere any time soon. This helps me to manage my stress levels when wearing that die hard Thrasher hat mentioned above.

I would like to look Hossa directly in the eyes and give that man a sincere thank-you.

By ThrasherNY

August 29, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

ranallo10 (in AT) Meszaros at a $5m price or below mitigates all my downside and is good with me. Got my fingers and toes crossed. If nothing better this rumuor has surely gave me a uptick in mood this morning.

GaVaHokie I agree completely that if you can give up a first round draft pick to get a solid 23-year old blueliner that will make your team competitive, you do it. IF it happened I really would be sitting in shock when looking at the composition of our team three years ago to post Meszaros. Night and day on the blueline. Hell more like before God gave us light and after God gave us light.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

ThrasheryNY — Again, I can’t disagree with you about Hossa. He helped this team in this time here, and by his departure brought many things to light about this franchise. Personally, I wouldn’t go so far as thanking him for that myself, but rather thank him for the enjoyment I derived from watching him play in Atlanta the last two seasons. There was not a time he touched the puck that I wasn’t enjoying myself, even if the team was losing. Same goes for Kovalchuk.

I wouldn’t agree with booing him either.

As for the Heatley thing, I don’t expect you to scour the depths of the internet, I’ve done that once before and came up with bupkiss. There’s little out there corroborating a bold-faced diss to Atlanta. Timing and wording might’ve been slightly off (as Ryan mentioned), but can anybody truly think he, from the bottom of his heart, was happy to use this accident to get out of Atlanta? I can’t agree with anyone who answers “yes” to that question, and I’m glad to know you don’t boo him…it’s just, wrong, in my opinion.

Heatley’s comments didn’t hurt my feelings, though I was hurt by the fact that we just lost our best all-around player after suffering through the tragedy (that didn’t affect me emotionally) and vocally supporting both him and Dan Snyder’s family. It sucked knowing he was the better talent, and he was being shipped away for an almost equal talent and aging defender. However, I didn’t take any of his statements to heart because quite honestly, why should I? It was the truth (the quotes I found), and I can’t get angry at him for telling the truth. Nor can I get angry with Hossa for anything he did.

I would think that if the people who were most affected by the tragedy, the Snyder family, can forgive Heatley, perhaps all of the “fanatics” can show a little class and let it go too. I know that’s expecting a lot, but I like to think all Atlanta fans are capable of such a gesture.

By GaVaHokie

August 29, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Also, there’s more to this Meszaros thing then we’re mentioning regarding compensation. Check out Daniel Tolensky’s article on the subject. It sounds like a team may have given him an offer sheet, but instead of signing it, Meszaros can agree to the terms of the offer sheet and strike a different deal instead.

By Bob

August 29, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

I just remember feeling slightly erked that we were forced into a bad bargaining position by him and then “the comment” made me say hey this guy may have used this terrible tragedy to his advantage. That kinda hurt a little when I am wearing my die hard Thrasher fan hat.

There’s one goof on these blogs that didn’t hear it himself but refuses to believe it, under some silly notion that if it’s not in print on the internet, that it didn’t happen. It was a live televised interview, I believe TSN had it up the minute he got there, and I saw it and heard it with myself. As did thousands of other Thrashers’ fans which is why he was booed so loudlly and so mercilessly.

I too won’t boo Hossa, he never dissed Atlanta or we fans, and he did us all a favor by shining a light on the incompetence here. I too would thank him for that, no one will boo Hossa when we comes back here, in fact, I’d guess he’ll be cheered.

Now if he scores a goal on us, he gets booed, because now he’s the enemy on the other team, but he didn’t pull a Heatley and diss us all on his way out of town.

By Ryan

August 29, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

You are completely correct Hokie about Tavares, he can do any of those things and would become a waste. But then if we don’t take him, we take Hedman or some other stud deserving of a #1 pick. It’s already being said that Hedman is passing Tavares anyway. My bigger complaint (and I realize this can also be used against Hedman) is that the direction this franchise is going, we are looking “somewhat adequate” or much better from the blueline back. Tons of youth, good players already, and our best prospects are there. What we really need is a star center or right wing. So why go after Meszaros? This doesn’t address our most glaring need.

By GaVaHokie

August 29, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this

Looks like it might be Tampa that’s making the offer on Meszaros. The latest from the Sun Times.

By Ryan

August 29, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

Tampa makes perfect sense. I hate to see that happen though.

By Brendan

August 29, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

All I remember of the Heatley arrival in Ottawa is this: He was at the airport, being interviewed, and said, paraphrased, “It’s nice to be back in Canada and to be in a real hockey city.” I think it’s important to note that Heatley didn’t say, “Atlanta’s fans sure did suck. That town was dump. If you ever see me back there again, you KNOW I F’d up BAD.” Now, when Atlanta hockey fans hear words like “hockey city” or “real hockey city” … they are going to be irked somewhat. I think most Thrasher fans do actually know that no one mistakes Atlanta, GA for the Mecca of hockey in North America. I think Atlanta fans would have far preferred to hear words like, “I’ll miss Atlanta. The fans were so good to me there. They’re really building something good. And I wish them nothing but the best. I am grateful to Don Waddell and the Ottawa Senators for giving me this second chance at my hockey career.” Had this been an ACTUAL quote, I think it would have softened the reaction to the trade. It was a tough situation all the way around. I’m sure Waddell didn’t want to trade Heatley. Heatley asked for, some say “demanded,” a trade. Waddell targeted teams with salary cap issues.

Ottawa, a very strong team, laden with an abundance of talent, who had just been to a Conference Finals in 2003 as the President’s Trophy winner, was a destination that many top players coveted. It is not surprising that Hossa would re-sign there on a 3-year deal, given how close they really were to winning the Cup. Neither is it surprising to think Heatley wouldn’t be happy to be going to such a strong contender.

Ottawa, in the midst of being a “100-point” team for six of eight seasons,” would be the #1 seed in 2006. They lost the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals to Buffalo, in a disappointing upset, 4-1. Ottawa would get revenge in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals over those very same Buffalo Sabres. Ottawa lost the Cup to Anaheim in 2007, 4-1. But the Senators still came out of the gate fairly well in 2007-08. Then they had “issues” in net, Ray Emery, more specifically, and barely qualified for the playoffs in the 7th spot. Some say, Bryan Murray more specifically, that the Pittsburgh Penguins dropped their final game of the season, deliberately, so as to draw the imploding Ottawa Senators as the #7 seed, falling back to #2. That’s an interesting strategy, if true. What if Montreal had gotten past the Flyers in the Semi-Finals to reach the CF? The Habs, not the Pens, would have had home ice, as the #1 seed. But I digress.

Heatley’s not one of my favorite people in the league. But I don’t “boo” Heatley. And I won’t “boo” Hossa. Nor will I criticize anyone who wants to boo either Heatley or Hossa. As a “free speech” advocate, I fiercely support their right to expressing themselves. If I’m going to “boo” ANYONE, it’s Bruce Levenson, first and foremost. Then Rutherford Seydell, Michael Gearon, and finally, Ed Peskowicz, collectively known as the Atlanta Spirit Group, LLC. Their “inaction” and “procrastination” had led to most of this team’s problems. If Waddell improves as a GM and builds a better team than he did the first time around, I’ll be happy about it. Success is always, ultimately, what I hope our team achieves. But if Waddell falters, who left him in charge? After seven finishes in the bottom third of the Conference in eight seasons, with no playoff series wins. Without a playoff win, period. The answer is: The ownership did. The ownership sets the budget. The ownership determines who runs the team as GM. There’s just no running away from that.

I don’t even “boo” Waddell. He’s just a man trying the best he can, given his “abilities,” in his set of circumstances. I doubt Waddell will ever be an upper echelon GM. But what if … let’s just say … Waddell has begged and pleaded the ASG to re-sign Enstrom and the ownership has blocked that move? If that’s true, I feel very sorry for Waddell. But if it’s Waddell’s decision not to entertain contract negotiations with Enstrom, then I not only blame Waddell, but also the ownership, for not stepping in to *save some money and to lock up this important player by showing him some love, and to finally, finally, finally start being “proactive.” Ya know, like most NHL clubs are, thiking 2-3 years in advance of every move.

By ranallo10 (in AT)

August 29, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

Bob — You’re right, I didn’t hear it myself, so how should I believe anyone if they can only say “it was something like …”

Would you believe me if I told you I once saw on a news broadcast that all people named Bob are incompetent?

Why not? I heard something like that, once. Sure, I have no transcript of the event (which happens with most live broadcasts, especially in hockey when the print journalism far outweighs the televised journalism, and particularly in Canada)…but why not just take my word for it?

I completely understand why people would get upset about a comment regarding fans knowing hockey in Ottawa, as it could be misconstrued as meaning Atlanta fans didn’t. To that I believe it’s a bunch of misunderstandings, and people in Atlanta wearing their feelings on their shoulder allowing someone they don’t know personally upset them over something they aren’t trying to understand.

If you honestly can’t get past one Canadian feeling that it’s more enjoyable for him to play in Canada than in the city where he accidentally killed his best friend…well, there’s not much hope for you honestly.

Ottawa is more passionate about hockey than Atlanta…there’s no doubting that. If he would’ve said it slightly different the same point would’ve been made, but I’m sure everyone who currently boos would still be upset about it.

By Bob

August 29, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

“It’s nice to be back in Canada and to be in a real hockey city.”

This is pointless, as it’s quite obvious that thousands of Atlanta fans were pretty upset at what Heatley said, the boos were merciless and the loudest I’ve heard the arena (except for our playoff games). But Heatley went further than what you paraphrased, it was definitely a slap in our collective faces and the sneer on his face and in his voice said it all.

But whatever, I know what happened because I watched it myself along with the other thousands of Atlanta fans that booed the crap out of him that first, and subsequent games. I quit booing him a long time ago, but a few still do, that’s how bad it was. But it’s his problem, I just hope the kid grows up one day and realizes he’s got issues.

By Brendan

August 29, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

I did definitely feel, from Heatley, a sense of “relief” to be out of Atlanta, during that TV interview. The kind of relief that usually accompanies “breaking up” with someone you don’t love anymore, and hope to never see again, ever in life. But, there are at least two ways of viewing that interview. (1) He’s just come out of a stressful situation with the U.S. Attorney’s office and he’s glad not to be in Georgia anymore. And (2), he wasn’t impressed with the Thrashers organization and didn’t see a big future there, and was happy to have made his ESCAPE, to “real” hockey country.

Watching Heatley deliver that interview didn’t fill me with “warm and fuzzy” feelings towards Atlanta. At the time, I was plenty upset that Heatley wasn’t willing to at least try to make a go of it, with counselors, etc. There was no way I wanted Heatley to leave the Thrashers. So, almost nothing he said was going to placate me, anyway.

At that time, I was in shock that Heatley requested a trade. I can tell you where I was when I heard about it. I was on the southern end of I-285, near Hartsfield, and I was listening to 680TheFan, and John Kincaid. It was around 5:30 PM. I screamed obscenities at the top of my lungs that Heatley had been traded, and banged on my steering wheel. Kincaid’s words, “I love this trade,” still resonating in my mind. I was left there thinking, “How could ANYONE love this trade??” But I got over it. It took a few months, actually.

By NASCAR Dave

August 29, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Can someone help me out??? I’m looking for the “2 Top Pair Defenders and a Top Line Center” that are supposedly on the way…

Are they here yet??? LOL

Here is a FACT… Every team in the NHL has 1 goal… To win the Stanley Cup.

How many of you actually think this team (as of now) has an even REMOTE shot at winning the Cup??? Because they do not. This is the constant thing with DONNIE FRAUDell… He consistently is unable to to comprise a quality NHL roster…

WHY is THAT???

And WHY is he STILL here???

Anybody on here who is talking about trading our #1 Pick is NUTS!

Not happening, unless DONNIE wants to get FIRED on the spot…

Look at the FACTS, folks. This guy Is Just NOT getting it done!!!

You can keep making excuses for the guy, but the facts are facts… He has made NO PROGRESS since he was hired in 1997 or 1998 (whichever it was)… NOTHING. Can you make an excuse for that???

Didn’t think so…

NUFF SAID.

By Brendan

August 29, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Now, now, now NASCAR Dave. For years, people came here to tout the “incremental progress” made by this club. But to fall in love with “incremental progress” is to probably embrace a 16-year plan for the Cup. Step one: Build the club. Step Two: Make Playoffs. Step Three: Win one playoff game. Step Four: Win two playoffs games. Step Five: Win three playoff games.

Uhh, you can see the futility of it all. Teams ebb and flow. There are highs and lows. There are lean years and fat ones. And hopefully, every so often, there’s actually a championship. But once it becomes evident that the team has made missteps, corrective action should have taken place.

That’s the “inaction” that plagues this team. I’m not sure another GM could have won the Cup with this ownership. But I feel like a different GM could have done better than Waddell has. If it’s this ownership’s policy to “Step back, and let the GM run the show, while the ownership finances it to the hilt,” then I support that concept entirely. But they’ve got to bring in someone capable of taking the club to the next level, and ACTUALLY finance it.

And I don’t think this is the ASG policy. I wish it were. I love the idea of ownership throwing something close to MAX salary dollars at someone who really knows how to build a winner. Of course, at this point, that’s not the best strategy. At this point, the Thrashers need to continue to build through the draft and focus on player development and, especially, player retention. That’s where it should spend its money. Not trying to pluck free agents from the Open Market, but rather, to lock up the Stanley Cup-winning puzzle pieces they already have, with longterm, non-insulting, PROACTIVE contracts.

By Sara

August 29, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

Good lord, how starved must we all be for hockey that the Heatly debate has come up … again.

For years, people came here to tout the “incremental progress” made by this club. But to fall in love with “incremental progress” is to probably embrace a 16-year plan for the Cup.

When Steve Yzerman was drafted by the Red Wings, management said at the time their goal was to win a Stanley Cup in five years. It took fourteen. In other words, stuff happens and sometimes things don’t go according to plan. It is not a crisis that this team hasn’t won a Stanley Cup yet. That said, by now we should a) be more competitive than we are and b) have more young talent on our roster than we do. But again, there are a number of different mitigating circumstances to all of that besides JUST Waddell.

Thrasher NY re: free agent signings I just posted the facts sir. Those are all the FA signings in those years. The amount (or lack of) superstars (still in their prime) on that list is what it is. The circumstances of that?? Debatable. As you alluded to, it does not take into account what teams needed, what salary restrictions they may have had, what top free agents were even on the market that year, and where they ultimately signed and for how much. All I can say definitively from that list is the non-traditional market teams do not have a frequent habit of signing top name talent. While Washington is on that list, the Caps are not really considered a non-trad market. Phoenix has Gretzky as a nice extra allure.

The compelling team on that list to me is Nashville. Now here’s a team that always makes the annual “contraction list” and almost did in fact lose their franchise. They have snagged a couple of high-calibre players over the years. Nashville has also been competitive every year. Getting into the play-offs as a bottom seed is still getting into the play-offs and they do it regularly. Fact is they have to contend with a powerhouse in Detroit for their division which pretty much guarantees they can’t get any higher than 4th seed at best anyway. They are also the most consistent team on that list (Stanley Cup champs or not, Tampa and Carolina are not consistently competitive).

So in essence, I would say based solely on the prima facie evidence, competitiveness is what matters most to free agents. My instincts would tell me that if you want a big name talent to come to your non-trad market team, you are going to have to give them a compelling reason to do so - whether it’s championships or money that motivates a particular player, that team had better be able to deliver.

By NASCAR Dave

August 29, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

In other words, stuff happens and sometimes things don’t go according to plan.

Don’t you get it YET???

THIS team has NO PLAN…

Never have, never will… Everybody is OK with the Status Quo…

But will they have a plan in place BEFORE KOVY leaves, or will they wait until AFTER he leaves to “have a plan”???

Just wondering…

By Sage of Bluesland

August 30, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this

Wait, I thought our brilliant Donny was still touting that impressive “Five-Year Plan” of his…

Don’t EVER wonder why the Thrashers are precisely what they are…Stop the excuses—and stop the subsidization of the incompetence…

By ThrasherNY

August 31, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Sara

So in essence, I would say based solely on the prima facie evidence, competitiveness is what matters most to free agents.

This was the thesis to my argument. Economics and competitiveness are the two primary drivers in a top tier UFA signing. I still revert back to the hypothetical in which you replace our current roster with that of Detroit’s current roster and then see if Campbell doesnt ink our $60m offer.

It is not a crisis that this team hasn’t won a Stanley Cup yet.

I agree completely with this statement. The Cup is the pinnacle of the sport. As a result it does not come easy to win. Even Detroit + Hossa has to go through the gambit to keep drinking from its greatness.

It is however a huge, enormous, humongous crisis when you have not won a single playoff game in the last decade. In a sport where greater than half of the team make it to the playoffs each season this is a telling statistic. I would ask that you reach back into your statistical vault and query how many teams in the league have no playoffs wins and still have the same GM?

I can only think of Columbus as a close proxy but with the firing of Maclean my counter drops down to zero.

There is also this crazy notion that … there are a number of different mitigating circumstances to all of that besides JUST Waddell. In order to support this statement you have to believe that all other team have no mitigating circumstances and therefore ours put us at an disadvantage. I can only think of one such example that qualifies and that is the “crash”. In that mitigating circumstance we lost a great player, a great person and a great team-mate. Not withstanding I cant make the argument that he was the future of the franchise. His loss is not what was the deciding factor in our history.

I see one other glaring problem with saying we have had an extraordinary set of mitigating circumstance outside of the GM’s control. You are not taking into consideration the extraordinary situation we walked into with respects to the lottery draft. If you were to come up with another team with no playoff wins and a single GM across the ten year horizon we would also have to look at the average draft position of said GM over the last decade of entry drafts. Comparing us to Columbus we have the clear advantage with our two #1s and two #2 picks.

Now we are on the verge of the greatest crisis I can see. Having our franchise player walk after his lengthy tenure with our team without winning a single playoff game.

I guess in summation it is crazy to think you are ever entitle to win the Cup. But it is also crazy to back a GM who has had every opportunity to succeed and continue to fail if you are even remotely interested in winning a Cup. I dont think I deserve to have my team win the thing I just think I deserve to have the hope that we could.

By Bob

September 1, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

I guess in summation it is crazy to think you are ever entitle to win the Cup. But it is also crazy to back a GM who has had every opportunity to succeed and continue to fail if you are even remotely interested in winning a Cup. I dont think I deserve to have my team win the thing I just think I deserve to have the hope that we could.

Boy, if that doesn’t sum it all up, I don’t know what does.

Happy Day Off, everyone.

By Sara

September 2, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

In order to support this statement you have to believe that all other team have no mitigating circumstances and therefore ours put us at an disadvantage.

No, you just twisted that completely backwards and misunderstood my point. The comment wasn’t meant as a defense of Don Waddell the greatest GM ever who bears no responsibility for the lack of success shown by this team (I’m not a DW hater but I sure don’t even subscribe to the aforementioned belief).

ALL teams have mitigating circumstances besides just decisions that GMs make/do not make. One would presume/hope that good owners (and rational fans) would take such things into account and not fire a basically sound GM just because some crap went wrong that he couldn’t control (car crash, career ending injuries, etc etc). My point was it is absolutely ridiculous to blame every single solitary set back or negative thing that happens within sneezing distance of the Atlanta Thrashers Hockey Club LLC on Don Waddell (slight exaggeration but I’m sure you get my point). That does not, btw, mean I am specifically talking about you TNY. But I get really tired of seeing Waddell blamed for things that I absolutely know weren’t his fault (ie drafting Stefan, the number #1 ranked guy in his draft class) or that no one can prove even remotely was Waddell’s fault (ie Nikulin not coming over).

As for comparing his tenure to that of other teams to see if anyone else has had a similar track record without getting canned, I can look if you like. Certainly there is not such a creature at the current time.

Oh, and using 5 goalies before the half-way mark of the season isn’t exactly a common occurrence either - and was most unfortunate given I think that was our best team ever and probably would NOT have gotten swept out of the first round. :(

By ThrasherNY

September 2, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Sara I see more clearly now your point with regards to things out of Waddell’s control.

I would agree completely that picking Stefan has no place in an arguement related to DW’s evaluation as a GM. Now to be fair you also have to take away credit for picking Kovy, Heatley, Kari & Bogo. Fits in the cant have your cake and eat it too category of which I am certain you will agree.

I actualy dont try to pick apart DW’s picks to evaluate that aspect of his job but choose to look at it from a macro level. I would be willing to put a small wager down that we have had one of the most favorable aggregate draft position during DW’s tenure. I have not done the research but I dont think this would be a wildly contested point. If properly weighted the 2x #1’s and 2x #2’s skew that data set pretty heavily. The derivative of that favorable situation has us just now fielding a team with more than one hands worth of home grown talent. I also understand this has many moving parts so for me this one goes down in my certainly not a positive bucket not my absolutely a negative bucket.

using 5 goalies before the half-way mark of the season isn’t exactly a common occurrence either - and was most unfortunate given I think that was our best team ever

I agree with both points in this statement. It is not common to use 5 goalies in a season and ‘05-‘06 was our best team hands down. That being said I just dont get to the same place you get with the “uncommon” arguement.

I see it as we had a weak goalie situation that year no matter what happened. It was one of the only critics heading into the season. DW is the one who put that in place and thusly he carries the blame. Part of the reason we had so much fire power up front was we were skimping on the back end. That was DW choice solely.

It is just dishonest to take credit for the good and then to say the bad was uncommon and therefore doesnt count. The two events are directly related to a conseus choice by the GM.

Kari was a rookie and Dunham was a known dud before the season started. That is why Kari was the clear cut choice as #1 guy in light of his untested abilities. I get that he was a #2 pick but just look at us now, Kari has a couple good years under his belt and some still argue the Moose should get more looks.

This year we have a solid goalie 1-2 punch but ‘05-‘06 DW was praying that the goalie thing worked out. Good goal-tending is essential to winning the Cup; DW was errant in putting us in that speculative position. The 5 goalies deal just gave him a scapegoat.

I see your overall point though and I agree it is wrong to blame all on DW. I just think you picked a bad example as it was a widely debated one in my circle.

I would have used the Hossa mailing it in last year. I cant find any arguement for that being DW fault other than to say that if he suspected it would be that bad he should have traded him. But I doubt he got that sense from someone like Hossa. I often wonder what Kovy thought of that blatent drop off in his production??

By ranallo10 (in AT)

September 2, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

McCabe is finally a Panther

By Anonymous 'Cos

September 2, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this

All hail NASCAR Dave !!! He knew this all along, and called us fools for not following his wisdom. Then again, he has a one track mind, just like the rednecks-turning-left that he idolizes in NASCAR. Forgive our hopefullness, please hockey-god.

I, too, gave up much hope within a month after the original release of the story claiming Nikulin was “close to sighning with the Thrashers.” I am still disappointed with the final result though. Two years in a row at that. My only hope is that the Thrashers’ organization has finally learned their lesson as far as Nikulin goes. I hope this summers’ “talks” with him are still fresh in their minds when Nikulin tries to pull the wool over their eyes AGAIN next summer, and throw it back in his face. Sounds to me like he is stringing us along. Bear in mind, i must admit i only know what i have read the past few months…but i believe he isn’t sincere in multiple statings that “it is his dream to play in the NHL.” People don’t turn down their biggest dream…twice.

By the way, NASCAR Dave : Can us fools have your e-mail address or the link to your website so we can get all our information from the all-knowing being you are? Please, and here’s your cookie!

Go Thrashers, is it October yet?

By Sara

September 3, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

ThrasherNY I would argue that a number of bad things that happen to all teams are just bad luck. We ened up in a bad goalie situation to start that season because Pasi blew his knee out while in Finland - extremely bad luck. I’d have to go back and look to see exactly when that went down and what the FA pool looked like but Dunham may have been the “best of the rest.”

However I completely understand your position as well and will do you one better on your end. Jiri Fischer actually died on the Detroit bench during a game before being amazingly revived by one of the trainers. That = Heatley car crash in terms of damage to the psyche of fellow players. They too lost a young player who would have been a force on the blueline for years to come. Ultimately they didn’t miss a beat in terms of on-ice success. So even though crap happens, a team has to be able to work through that and one bad turn of events should not be enough to bring down a franchise.

As for our aggregate draft position - yes we’ve had it good in terms of #1 and #2 picks. One didn’t pan out as an elite player, the other we lost through no fault of our own. Detracts somewhat for that. Losing Heatley hurt this team in ways a lot of people fail to grasp. While Heatley = Hossa is a valid argument, Hossa’s contract (and deVries’ which we also had to take on) was substantially higher than Heater’s. To the tune I think of roughly $5M more. That was money for Savard right there. Or another center, or a better defenseman, better back-up goalie…that list can go on. I’ve always wondered about what could have been just in terms of the financial implications of that trade.

Really it’s all moot. Waddell is still here. And bear in mind his bosses have said they are holding him to a different standard than the fans are - they judge him only from the point where they took over the franchise so for them it isn’t about ten years, it’s about five. While some may have considered Hartley Waddell’s second chance, I imagine the owners consider Anderson Don’s second chance. If he can pull it together now, he’ll stay. Whether they will be contect with the “incremental prgoress” of the earlier years I do not know. If they are more willing than AOL/TW was to fund a payroll for top-tier talent when applicable, the progress may not be so incremental.

As for the GM stats, I may have some time to look into it today. It’s a hard one to look at because GM tenure information can be difficult to come by. I learned that with a project last year on drafting. I’ll see what I can find though that might be applicable to this situation.

By Bob

September 3, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

actually, Pasi Nurminen was a questionable draft choice by Waddell for exactly the reason that he had knee problems. So, one could assume that other GMs didn’t take a flyer on him as they saw him as a risk.

Once the injuries happened a lot of fans were calling for Waddell to make a big trade for a real goalie when we started to have trouble, but he went the cheap route. I don’t remember exactly who was available then, but I do recall some of our more astute bloggers who follow goalies closely were calling for some big trade to be made (a trade that would cost us assets) but Waddell kept trying to stick his finger in the dike (not the dyke, I think that was Damian Rhodes’ job) and it blew up in his face and we all know how it ended.

Injuries happen to all clubs, astute GMs have a backup plan in place, or react a heck of a lot better then Waddell did in that situation.

By Brendan

September 3, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

All teams need depth. That’s for sure. That’s why I don’t fly into hysterics that Todd White and Eric Perrin are Thrashers. They’re depth players. But depth should also extend to the farm club. We’re about to find out what the farm club can do at the NHL level. At least, I hope that’s what is about to happen. There’s still a chance for a trade, especially while we’re still technically under the cap.

Bogosian should be signed shortly, with plenty of incentive provisions.

By ThrasherNY

September 3, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Sara I agree that the owners are measuring Waddell with a much different scale than I am. Based on their actions, or lack there of, I have actually come to grips with the fact that DW has unlimited tenure regardless of results. Under this relization I find myself actually being optimistic about DW’s ability to learn from his mistakes. Optimistic because up to this point in time I think he has made one variation or another of all the big mistakes a GM can make. I like our direction as of late and thusly I am contend to just watch the next round of building whether it be labled the 2nd or 3rd.

With respects to Heatley you will get no arguement from me on the economics of that deal were what made it a bad move. Heatley was considerably cheaper and Devries was the burden that likely pushed out Savard. I am not certain but I also want to think we would have got another year garaunteed from Heater due to RFA status.

I would love to read DW memoirs in a distant time to better understand what Heatley could have said to warrant us trading him. He was the top young talent in the league and I just dont know why it was even an option. Unless he threatened to sit out, which I would have called his bluff on, I would have politely told him to growth the F up and that he was a Thrasher….PERIOD.

I think it was GaVAHokie who once said that whatever team gives up the superstar ALWAYS gets the short end of the stick. So true, so true!