Thrashers

By George

December 12, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Detroit is not as good as their record.

They play in one of the weakest divisions in the history of sports. If they were in the Northeast, they would be in third or fourth place. Their best goalie is a career backup. The rest of the team is OLD and will start playing like it once the season wears on.

If you erase the quickstart October, they are a 500 club.

So no, I am not surprised. I see who they play against and think they are lucky not to be in a real division.

By Paul

December 12, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Not at all, the Wings have drafted better than most teams. All of those 3rd anf 4th round picks are starting to flourish now.

By JB

December 12, 2005 04:50 PM | Link to this

Ken Holland is the standard that all GM`s have to measure up to. Look at where Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted…..That is where Cups are won.

Now look at how Holland has managed the cap this year…..Incredible. My hat is off to a great organization. This is one I have been looking foward to attending all year. All real hockey fans should see this team in person.

By RC

December 12, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

No I’m not surprised at all. 1). An original six team. 2). Hockey Town. 3). Holland is no dummy-How many seasons 20+ 4). The organization knows hockey-thats what they do. 5). There, it seems, is more emphasis on hockey in Detroit than… lets say Atlanta. Lions-not good Tigers-not good Whats left? Pistons good, Red Wings-good. Each team has separate ownership. Although the wings owners also own the Tigers-but you can see where their passions are, unlike…lets say Atlanta. Ownership also has the Hawks. Hawks-not good but there have been talks already about the departure of the coach-Why? Because there are people within the investors who know about and care about BBall. What about Hockey? looking at the investors bios no one knows about hockey so who gets the say so DW, Kudos! Forgive me, I did not mean for this to turn into a DW bashing. The Wings are no surprise due to people within the organization that know a thing or two about Hockey….and pizza that doesnt hurt either.

By caillou

December 12, 2005 05:37 PM | Link to this

JB, the only two picks that have panned out since 1999 for Holland are those guys, Kronwall may work out but who knows he’s always hurt. If you notice the Wings haven’t had many first rounders because they had massive amounts of cash to blow on free agents. They must have traded the first round every year for known commodities since then and previously had the cash to spend on them, watch out over the next few years when they can’t pay everyone when deals start ending. Further this year he has spent the entire cap already if injuries occur they are in the same boat as the Thrashers. If the Wings had as many injuries in goal as we have had then they would be trading away some talent because they have no cap room.

By JB

December 12, 2005 06:20 PM | Link to this

caillou ….When they did have the picks in the early `90s Holland made them count. If you look at their picks over the last 4 years, they own the rights to tons of top Sweedish and Czech talent. The next Datysuk could be right around the corner. Holland turned draft picks into players like Robert Lang. In Howard they have one of the top up and coming netminders in hockey. All their young picks who went back to juinors were the talk of the Traverse City rookie games. If I were betting money, I say Holland keeps the Wings at or near the top in the new Salary Cap era. The man knows talent and is backed by the best scouting in hockey…..Give them credit.

By caillou

December 12, 2005 06:46 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, top swedish talent like….., czech talent such as whom….., Jim Howard one win two losses on a “stacked” team. By the way Datsyuk is a Russian not a czech. Oh and the picks in the 90’s you stated all are gone, looks like Holland didn’t think they were that good. By the way Lang is hurt. So why is he so great?

By JB

December 12, 2005 08:13 PM | Link to this

caillou I never said Datsyuk was Czech, simply that one of these Europeans could be next Sorry if I confused you…..The European talent is stockpiled though. players such as

Jakub Kindl(Czech)32 points in 29 games as a defenseman at Kitchener, picked 19th in the `05 draft

Christofer Lofberg(Sweede)19 yrs old regarded as one of the top talents in the Sweedish Elite League

Johan Franzen (Sweede) just getting his chance this year with the Wings/ Big center with loads of potential and highly rated by every scouting service in Europe

Anton Axelsson( Sweede)…rated by some scouts as farther along than Forsberg at this age(18) Great upside

Jiri Hudler(Czech)…just getting his chance after starting the year in the AHL AND LIGHTING THE LEAGUE UP 36 points in 23 games

Howard is the netminder of the Wings future He will be there for good in a year or two

Martin Lapointe, Keith Premeau they all brought something to the table even though it didn`t work out forever in Detroit

Nobody does it better than Holland and his scouts….The Wingsfans expect and demand it. Im a Thrasher fan but I know what it looks like when it is done right.

By caillou

December 12, 2005 10:22 PM | Link to this

Jakub Kindl(Czech)-Kindl arrived in the OHL with a lot of hype. His transition to the North American game has been a bit rough at times. Hockeysfuture prospect rating C. Christofer Lofberg(Sweede)is a liability defensively and doesn’t work hard enough on the backcheck… should use his size even more and play a bit tougher. Not even rated at Hockeysfuture. Johan Franzen (Sweede) He was a top-2 line center in the elite league but is projected to play as a third to fourth line role player in the NHL. Anton Axelsson( Sweede)For now it looks like he could eventually develop into a third or fourth line checker in the NHL, but if he continues to develop his offensive skills and add some strength he could move up the depth chart. rated a D. Jiri Hudler(Czech)The small Czech prodigy’s size has been a huge question mark and is probably the reason that he fell all the way to the late second round in the 2002 draft. So far he has been overcoming his size with smartness and skill, but will he be able to translate to the NHL style? Answer NO.

You complain about how Waddell makes deals and guys perform elsewhere, yet this is OK for Holland? Why shouldn’t he be canned for letting all these guys go?

By the way my point behind all of this is any GM can be questioned in this league for good reasons.

By Bob

December 12, 2005 11:09 PM | Link to this

caillou,

The reason you don’t question Holland is his record, his performance, even this year with Cap restraints. And you want to compare him to Waddell who truly deserves to be canned? That’s a good one.

But to answer the intelligent question up above, no, it’s not suprising. The Wings have an excellent owner and an experienced, effective GM making the decisions.

By JB

December 12, 2005 11:33 PM | Link to this

Waddell learned his craft under Holland. I know it takes time. Every move Holland has made hasn`t worked out to be a great move.

In his 9 years as GM, NO MATTER WHAT THE RESOURCES, His record speaks for its self.

I think Holland does so well because he comes from the Scouting side of administration and can judge talent.

Asst GM Jim Nill has been a major player in developing the Wings European scouting.

Hockey Futures always seems to slight Euro talent a bit….I don`t take all their ratings on Euros as the last word.

By caillou

December 12, 2005 11:41 PM | Link to this

Bob, you obviously can’t see an intelligent hockey discussion from a mile away. JB and I are quietly debating the good and bad of Ken Holland. Bob how would you rate Glen Sather? Bobby Clarke? Pierre Lacroix?

By Brendan

December 12, 2005 11:56 PM | Link to this

The Red Wings seem to have chemistry. That is a very good and “underestimated” thing. But they’ve also made some rather intelligent “decisions” along the way. Lots of people like to say “no one came out of that 1999 Draft.” (By the way, Patrik Stefan was the #1 overall pick.) The 210th overall selection was made by Detroit, Henrik Zetterberg, LW. The previous year, 1998, with the 171st overall pick, the Red Wings selected Pavel Datsyuk, center.

But that’s nothing new. Since 1987, the Red Wings have landed eight (8) later round draft picks to their roster. Slava Kozlov, 1990, 45th overall, Darren McCarty, 1992, 46th overall, Matthew Dandenault, 1994, 49th overall, Nicklas Lidstrom, 1989, 53rd overall, Sergei Federov, 1989, 74th overall pick, Pavel Datsyuk, 1998, 171st overall, Henrik Zetterberg, 1999, 210th overall, Vlady Konstantinov, 1989, 221st overall.

So, Detroit has a history of making those later round picks “count.”

Now, what about their 2005 “offseason” moves? Out went Dandenault to Montreal, Derian Hatch to the Flyers, Cujo to the Coyotes, Darren McCarty to the Flames, and Ray Whitney to the Hurricanes. Now, that’s how to trim a payroll!

But uhh, who did they bring in? Anyone? Well, they made some fiscally sound decisions. Like what? Well, for starters they landed Jason Williams, 1-year, $450,000. Folks, that’s the league minimum.

Clap, clap, clap. See? It can be done. Jason Williams is a young player, who is producing, at a practically non-existent salary.

Who plays net? Answer: The Stanley Cup-winning netminder, Chris Osgood. He probably costs a mint, right? Nope. His salary is $900,000. Boy, he’s breakin’ the bank, huh? Chris Chelios agreed to stay on for the paltry sum of $850,000, a one-year deal. What about Stevie Y?? His salary is $1.75 million. What about this Datsyuk, 171st overall pick? He’s signed for 2-years. What about Zetterberg, 210th overall, 1999? The Wings locked him up for 4-years. They paid a lot for Matthieu Schneider. $6.6 million over 2-years. They brought in Andy Delmore and Andreas Lilja, both from Nashville, on one-year deals. They re-signed Niklas Kronwall for two-years.

All in all, they did very well for a team that had to shed MILLIONS off the payroll. They still have Shanahan. They have a lot of experience, winning attitude, and hockey “know how.” They also brought in Pete Babcock, the former coach of the Mighty Duck who “victimized” them in 2003, when Anaheim made a Cinderella-like run at the Cup.

Are the Red Wings going to win the Stanley Cup this year? Not in my estimation. They’re just a little too old for four rounds of playoffs. Osgood never really was an “elite” goalie. But for $900K, I’d take ‘im!! That’s worth taking a risk on.

Dominik Hasek only costs $2 million. Anyone could have signed him. It just turns out that Ottawa did. Well, the Senators make a lot of good choices. Their best ones, over the years, have come at the expense of the Thrashers, however. (D’oh!!)

Okay, I never really answered the question. “Yes. I am surprised by the Red Wings success this year.” I thought they’d be good. Not this good. But they are also in a weaker division. Nashville is also benefitting from that. But once you match Detroit up with Tampa Bay or Ottawa, I suspect that the Red Wings come up a little short. I can’t cry for the Red Wings. They’ve been to four (4) Finals since 1995, and won three (3) of them.

Every year, the “President’s Trophy” is awarded to the team with the best overall record. Detroit has won this honor four (4) times since 1995, including 1995, 1996, 2002,and 2004. The Red Wings were “runners-up” to the trophy in 2000 and 2001.

All in all, having one of the “two best” overall records in the standings, for six (6) times since 1995, is “pretty good” and “pretty consistent.”

By Brendan

December 13, 2005 12:11 AM | Link to this

Uhh, make that Derian Hatcher above. And I committed an unpardonable sin above, calling the former Ducks coach Pete Babcock, instead of Mike Babcock. I’ve got Pete Babcock on the brain, since I believe that the Atlanta Spirit has swallowed the “Waddell kool-aid,” and like Pete Babcock, may be here “for what seems like a century.”

I think Don Waddell came from the Red Wings organization. I notice they didn’t “fight” to keep him.

By JB

December 13, 2005 12:12 AM | Link to this

You covered the bases there Brendan…………Im not surprised that they are doing it again......caillou made a good point above. All these guys are getting older and will retire or their skills are going to erode....Hollands biggest job yet may be if he can retool on the run and stay on top. I for one would like to see them fall flat on their faces starting tommorow night…..I hope I hope

By Brendan

December 13, 2005 12:35 AM | Link to this

JB, We’ve never “pasted” the Red Wings in our history. Actually, we’ve never had any kind of success versus the Red Wings, who are 7-0-0, lifetime, against the Thrashers. They’ve outscored us by a margin of 36-15, or better than two to one.

Okay, I suppose I should clear that up somewhat. Atlanta has had two overtime losses vs. Detroit. So, in entire history, we’ve managed to escape with two-points off Detroit in seven tries.

Ready for the “rose-colored spin?” We can DOUBLE our franchise-best with a win at Philips Arena.

By Packmule

December 13, 2005 06:37 AM | Link to this

I would not say I am surprised the Wings have remained on top. They are a first class Hockey Club that has done things the right way. I believe Waddell has tried to emulate what the Wings have done, building a team with young players and adding vetrans this year thinking we were ready for the playoffs. The problem I see is we do not develop enough younger players. So our management is to blame as it seems we have not scouted and drafted well at all.

Is it time for Don to go? Let’s discuss it in the Thrashers Nest…. www.thrashersnest.net - Get in the NEST!

By Jim

December 13, 2005 08:18 AM | Link to this

Anyone who watched last night’s Red Wings-Pens game has to be impressed by the way that they work cohesively together. Beautiful passing. Great cover-up for one another. Solid in every phase of the game. If Pen’s goalie, Fleury, had not been spectacular, the score would have been far worse. They are a dominant team and a lock to go 8-0 versus our weak defense and shakey goal tending. Unfortunately, this game will clearly point out how far we have to go to compete against the top NHL clubs.

By Bob

December 13, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this

caillou,

Sorry, I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who would try to tear down Holland to Waddell’s incompetency. And I can’t stand Detroit, but I respect what Holland has done.

But to answer your question, Sather’s a moron, I always thought Bobby was a moron too, but he did pretty darn well for himself retooling his club to be competitive under the cap, and Lacroix has had the luxury of spending huge dollars in the past, but he seems to be find some good young talent without picking #1 overall, where’d he get this Svatos kid? I watched some of the Ottawa-Colorado game last night and Svatos looks like the real deal.

I also watched pieces of that Wings game last night, they looked very good. We have to really tighten up team defense if we expect to beat them tonight.

By JB

December 13, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

Bob…….I would hope you would rethink on Clarkie…..When you can grab Carter and Richards at #11 and #24 in the`03 draft and get the contributions they have made this year, I think thats pretty good. Philly is a lot like Detroit in as that their fans demand excellence on the ice. Granted they have a 30 year Cup drought, but they are knocking on the door of the Conference finals most years. Somebody put that talent together.

Back on topic….The Wings did looked great last night vs. the Pens. Hopefully they will slow down on the second game of a back to back. Packed house tonight…..This will be one to see.

By Bob

December 13, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

JB,

I agree now on Clark, I thought in the past he was not that great, but he’s proven he knows what he’s doing. Drafting well and the players he brought in this year have been good moves.

The old high spenders like the Wings, Flyers, and Colorado all are still pretty darn good even under a cap. That’s good management.

By briton

December 13, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

To keep it short and simple, I’m not at all surprised. The Red Wings are a solid franchise with good people up front making the decisions. The team has chemistry and heart…why else would they be able to sign who they did for such bargain prices. I lived in Hockey Town for several years, there’s an awful lot of pride invested in being a Red Wings’ fan. Wings’ fans would not tolerate less than great and the team would not want to deliver any less…it’s a two-way street.

By IWOCPO

December 13, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

I happened in here looking for an Atlanta article on tonite’s game (I’m a Wings fan) and saw this discussion. Not to be condescending, but this thread is some of the most knowledgable hockey chat I’ve seen in a long time. It’s encouraging, as a hockey fan, to see fans from what many consider to be a “weaker” market so enthusiastic about our sport.

Good luck to you and your team in the future (just not tonite).

By Bob

December 13, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

IWOCPO,

Thanks. to help explain, Atlanta is full of northern transplants, so alot of us have prior experience and grew up with the game, so we’ve been around.

Unfortunately that hurts attendance also, since the Thrashers are not our original home town team. But then nights like tonight, all the transplant Detroit people buy tickets to the game, and the place is full.

By caillou

December 13, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Do you know who Mike Babcock was hired by? Who got him all the talent for the run, Jack Ferreira, Atlanta’s director of amateur scouting. Do you realize since 1987 it has been 20 years, eight late picks, Waddell is on pace for at least that many. Sather the guy you state is a moron was the guy who built the oilers dynasty, during the eighties he had 10 late round picks pan in the first five years 1979-1983, this year he has the Rangers at the top of his division, he drafts as well as anyone, Bobby Clarke the same, Lacroix is likely in the top five for spotting talent in NHL history.

Ken Holland has had the luxury of spending to his hearts content and now he can’t see where they are in the next 5 years with him at the helm and maybe you can see what type of GM he is.

That said I am not surprised that they lead a soft division, and have people who were willing to accept less to play there because it is Hockeytown.

Holland is not an expansion team GM, that is why he has a decent record, not because he is that much greater than average.

By Brendan

December 13, 2005 07:13 PM | Link to this

Don Waddell has never had a 2nd round pick play in the starting lineup, without it being a “call up” situation. I only counted 8 later round picks from 1987 to the year 1999, or a 13-year span. I felt it wouldn’t be appropriate to judge picks after that since those picks may still be developing in the minors, college, or Juniors. I am hopeful that someone else will be doing the Thrashers drafting in the coming years.

By Brendan

December 13, 2005 10:59 PM | Link to this

Well, they did it!! They won! They DOUBLED their franchise success over the Red Wings. They now have four points, historically, against Detroit. It’s also five outta six points in the past three games. That’s the good news.

The bad news?

How on EARTH do the Thrashers NEED TO SCORE a goal in the 3rd period with a four-goal lead after two periods?

That’s terrible. It really is. How does a team keep blowing four-goal leads? We all remember the first Pittsburgh game, right?

Started out 4-0 Thrashers, 10-minutes in. The result? 7-5, Penguins.

At least Atlanta won this time. But it’s a sad state of affairs when a team cannot protect a 6-2 lead after two periods. On home ice.

I’m glad they won. But it’s COVERING glaring deficiencies. Atlanta must learn how to play with a lead.

Geez Louise, it takes seven (7) goals to get a win these days???