AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2007 > October > 09 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTorre and boss get time to dine
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Furman Bisher
Joe Torre was the perfect fit for the Yankees. They’d never been managed by one of their own, a native of New York City, before. Players’ manager. Every guy loved him. None of that Billy Martin rancor in his clubhouse. Joe got the rowdyism out of his system when he was young. In Atlanta, matter of fact, the Braves used to keep a ready fund on hand at the police station to cover his action.
No matter he’d been fired three times before. The Mets, right there in Flushing, first, then the Braves, then the Cardinals. Three strikes and most managers are out, but not so fast for Joe. He was feeling sort of out of it when I ran into him once in Toronto. He was traveling with the Angels, working in the broadcast booth. He was in his sixth season, and the phone hadn’t rung. Then one day George Steinbrenner called. After a string that included a Bucky, Buck and Stump, he wanted a manager with a name and social graces that looked right in pinstripes — and knew how to order in an upscale restaurant.
That was one of the things that got Torre in the soup with Ted Turner. Joe was a winner, one division championship, then two seasons in second place, which shouldn’t get a manager fired, but did. Ted thought he was spending too much on the phone lining up postgame dining.
No trouble in New York. Joe Torre was born there, knew how to move with the elegant, and knew how to win there. He was, then, the perfect fit, except for one thing: He was giving Steinbrenner too much free time in October. Made it to the playoffs the past three seasons, but the buck stopped there. I grant you, the Yankees team he has been fielding has such un-Yankee names: Mientkiewicz, Henn, Karstens, Hughes, Chamberlain, even one of the many Cabreras, a Taiwanese pitcher and a Japanese outfielder. Not only that, but in the closing days they had Wilson Betemit, the vagabond Braves infielder, playing first base. There’s just something mighty un-Yankee about that cast.
But they were still Yankees, One of those sports publications published staff predictions last week, and not only did most pick the Yankees to win the pennant, but half of them picked them to win the World Series. So did Steinbrenner, and a story got out that if they didn’t, Joe Torre would be looking for work. Sounds like George. He’d had all the free October time that he could stomach. It occurred to me, though, that the trouble might not be with Joe, but with Brian Cashman. Cashman has been a Yankees employee since he was 19 years old. Started off a “mail room” guy, as they say, and rose to the “board room.”
He has been general manager as of 1998, and at first it was swell. Now the pinstripes are hung in the lockers too early. But it was Torre that Steinbrenner served notice on. “Win the playoffs, or be gone,” it was said he said.
It was Cashman who signed Johnny Damon, who has a pitiably weak arm. And split first-base duty between Doug M. and Jason Giambi, confessed drug-user. The left side of the infield was weighed down with salary imbalance, but it was strange the relationship that existed between Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter. A huge cash outlay that produced an early autumn.
Funny thing, a sports pub came out the other day offering “New York Yankee Stein Collection,” your favorite Yankee on your beer mug, “enhanced with platinum accents, Satisfaction Guaranteed.” You can get the Jeter Stein for $39.95, and you are advised to “respond promptly.” The timing couldn’t have been worse. There was no Torre mug in the collection.
Torre may go any day, or he may not go at all. He didn’t win a gold star with his pitcher-handling against Cleveland, but frankly, it wouldn’t have made much difference what moves he might have made. George might keep that in mind, and so should Brian. No ship ever sails well manned by an unharmonious crew. And as for the Yankees from where I sit, good riddance. Enjoy your fall.
Permalink | Comments (34) | Post your comment | Categories: Braves / MLB, Furman Bisher
Comments
By southbeachdietfreak
October 9, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
I think people forget some of the things he had to go through during his tenure as yankees manager… Death of a brother, another who had to have heart surgery, and the normal stress of the NY media, fans notwithstanding, he still managed to bring championships to the Bronx. I am by no means a fan of the Yanks, but I am a Torre fan. He is a great manager, and a great man. One of the best in history. God bless Joe Torre; regardless of what happens, he will always be a winner in my book
By Ramblin Gamblin Wreck
October 9, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
If the Boss pulls the trigger, I would not mind seeing Joe seeded to replace Bobby Cox if and when Bobby feels like he has had enough. No rush, just posting a depth chart.
By Bo
October 9, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this
Joe is not going anywhere. George wants to win so bad he talks before he thinks. Got to love Joe. I enjoyed him with the Braves and Bobby got the reward for Joe’s hard work. Agree Southbeach-D-F.
By David
October 9, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this
How did Bobby get the credit for Joe’s hard work? If anything, it’s the other way around. Joe succeeded Bobby in ‘82 and won with the foundation laid by Bobby and Bill Lucas. By the time Bobby returned, Joe had been long gone from Atlanta. Bobby’s draft picks laid the foundation that Schuerholz built upon for the run that began in 1991. Torre had nothing to do with that run.
By captain midnight
October 9, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this
The Yankees have alwalys had the benefit of going out and signing the best player at each position with there unlimited money. A gorilla could have done better than Torre. He was a loser before he got that job and he’s still a loser considering the talent and monet they made available to him
By captain midnight
October 9, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this
The Yankees have alwalys had the benefit of going out and signing the best player at each position with there unlimited money. A gorilla could have done better than Torre. He was a loser before he got that job and he’s still a loser considering the talent and money they made available to him
By Alex
October 9, 2007 11:12 PM | Link to this
I am continually amazed at the people that do not understand what a great baseball man Bobby Cox is.
Check the records. As I recall, Bobby was manager of the Braves from 1978 to 1981. They showed progress but never won a division. Turner decided to fire him at the end of the 1981 season and Bobby had the class to show up for the press conference announcing his firing.
In fact, I’m pretty sure Turner said something like, ‘If I hadn’t just fired him I would be hiring him.’ Not a quote but it is close.
So Bobby is gone, Torre inherits a LOADED Braves team. He finishes first, second, second. Meanwhile, Toronto hires Bobby as GM where he lays the groundwork for a couple of playoff appearances and ultimately leads to two world championships in 1992 and 1993.
Yes, I know that Bobby rejoined the Braves in 1990 but you cannot deny that while he was Toronto’s GM he laid the foundation for their future sucess.
So 1991 comes, the Braves win the division 14 straight times. This is unprecedented.
Consider the payroll constraints the Braves have been under since Turner (that moron traitor who sold out to make a buck) ‘merged’ with Time Warner. What do you think Bobby could have done if he had had a $200,000,000 payroll?
If you are rational you would KNOW that the braves would probably have banked about 6 championships by now.
If you are irrational you are probably a Bankees fan.
Selah,
Alex
By Coach Lets Go Braves In 2008)
October 9, 2007 11:30 PM | Link to this
Mr.Bisher , One must wonder where this franchise would in history be if Ted Turner had not made the mistake of firing Joe Torre after the 1984 season. I sincerely believe that if Joe Torre had been the manager for the last twenty-three seasons , the Braves would definitely have more than one World Championship.
By Chris
October 10, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this
Alex is right on. Cox deserves much of the credit for the Braves’ success in the early ‘80’s. Torre ran Niekro out of town, and I will never forgive him for that.
By hop
October 10, 2007 4:47 AM | Link to this
JOE TORRE is a class guy who will end up managing somewhere whether it’s new york or somewhere else. steinbrenner is stupid if he thinks he can get a better manager than joe. the remarkable comeback the yankees had from june on was incredible due largely to the adroitness of torre.
By Big Ed
October 10, 2007 6:57 AM | Link to this
I don’t think Torre is the problem. Years ago George and Brian Cashman decided that buying a team is quicker and easier than building a team through your farm system. Boston wasn’t too far behind. They traded away anyone that had talent. Then as mid market teams such as Detroit and Cleveland beat the Yankees with payrolls that aren’t even close to New York, George throws a tantrum. Having an allstar at each position is not a guarantee of anything. Having allstars on the bench to replace allstars is not a winning formula. What George doesn’t understand is you need non ego role players at some positions that are willing to do the little things to win games. Does anybody remember Scott Boros. He was the third baseman the last time the Yankees won the world series. I wonder how much he was making. Probably slightly less than $250 million. The Yankees have put more emphasis on their farm system over the past few years but it doesn’t happen over night. The formula for their pitching staff this year is a good indicator of how they think. Put a lot of money into proven but aging pitchers that might have a good year or two left in them. Going into the ALDS they had Clemens, Pettite, and Musina with huge contracts and nothing to show for it. Every other team left in the playoffs has a better mixture of young talent. George will spend another Billion dollars over the next 5 years and probably go through two managers. There is something said for running a team the right way and George doesn’t get it.
By george
October 10, 2007 7:28 AM | Link to this
So does Atlanta learn from New Yorks’s mistake and sign Glavine?
By j-School Dropout
October 10, 2007 8:40 AM | Link to this
Maybe some of you are too young to remember Torre’s tenure in Atlanta, but he was not a very good manager. He let Bob Gibson, proving that great pitchers don’t make great pitching coaches, destroy a young pitching staff and run Phil Niekro out of town. Phil was 16-4 the next year for the Yankees. The only year I ever rooted for an NY team. He also signed off on the idea of sending fan favorite and future superstar Brett Butler to Cleveland for the execrable Len Barker. BTW, we also lost Brooks Jacoby (an excellent third baseman) in that deal. As a former resident of Orange County, Calif., during the years when Torre was the color man for the Angels’ broadcast, I believe his time in the booth made him a great manager. He learned some humility, and he learned how a great manager, Gene Mauch, handled his team.
By Spider29
October 10, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this
Joe Torre was my first “favorite player” and I have liked him ever since. He is a great manager and, as Mr. Bisher said, was perfect for the Yankees. Knowing that he will probably lose his job was the only negative in the Yankees NLDS loss. If we didn’t have Bobby Cox, I would love to have Joe Torre here!
By waiting on 2008
October 10, 2007 9:11 AM | Link to this
I want Mark Lemke to manage when bobbys done. I think he would be good and fun to watch.
By Kelley
October 10, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this
Thank you Alex. Finally, someone who posts a comment who actually has some sense when it comes to Bobby Cox.
Bobby is the best, no question. It doesn’t matter who replaces him when he’s gone, we will all see just how good we had it while he was the manager for the Braves. i just hope he doesn’t leave anytime soon.
By Bill
October 10, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
Great write Furman - As you said “they are still the Yankees” - they do more to unite this country than the Republicans and Democrats ever could!
By Braves Fan in MIA
October 10, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this
It continually amazes me how much credit people give Joe Torre and this column is another example. Those of us who remember Torre from his stint with the Braves and watched him with the Cards know that he is an average manager who gets only what is expected from his players. For those who think he is such a “great man” and “great manager,” I’d also refer you not only to Gary Sheffield’s comments (I’m not saying that Sheffield’s not a lunatic, but where there’s smoke there’s fire) or to his lack of defending his BEST player last year and this year, but also his insistence on a salary DOUBLE that of any other manager. What a humanitarian he is!
Mr. Bisher, could you possibly cut down on the sentence fragments and use some verbs, please? Reading sentences. With no verbs. Difficult. Nonsensical.
By Christian Schultz
October 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
Braves Fan in MIA … . . please stay MIA. And take Sheffield with you. Thank you.
By Ole Prof
October 10, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
Dang !!!!!!! Every time I look at the standings since Sept. 30, The Braves are still 5 games behind… Can’t they EVER make up any ground?
By Rich Simpson
October 10, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this
Bo. Let’s think this out. I love Joe Torre, but do you think all of the championship pennants that were hung around Turner Field, during the Bobby Cox era, were because of Joe’s hard work?! Fourteen or so pennants because of Joe Torre who left in the early eighties?
By The Ultimate Choptimist
October 10, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this
I think Joe started pressing, and got away from the things that made him succesful early on in NY. Case in point:
Game 3 1996, WS on the line, Yanks down 2-0 coming to Atl. Toree doesn’t press by trying something crazy and desperate like bringing back his number 1 starter on 3 days rest in the crucial game 3. No…he trusted the whiley vet, David Cone, and was rewarded by a performance for the ages that totally turned that series around.
Fast foward to 2007: Game 4, series on the line, Joe presses by bringing back a tired Wang on 3 days, rather than trusting the whiley vet Mike Mussina.
I guarantee you that the outcome of that game and the entire series would have been competely different had Mussina started game 4. But we’ll never know now. Great work, George…you forced Joe into getting away from the very things that brought success. Hopefully you’ll enjoy your early vacation as much as I enjoyed watching the anguish on the faces of you and your fans.
By Bo
October 10, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this
David and Alex; I worked for The Braves and John Mullen 76-88. Hell, its to much to explain but both of you are half right. If you want to give Bobby credit for everything thats you and ok. There’s alot of Sh__ you don’t know. Alot of credit goes to other people, to many to name.Ex. C Tanner. All I’m saying is Bobby was one of many etc., not the total answer.
By Pete
October 10, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
I thought B. Cox was the Mgr. at Toronto not the GM. Made the play off and lost again.
By Randy
October 10, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
B Cox was the mgr in Toronto. He could only come to Atlanta as a GM & not mgr in order to get out of Toronto contract. The biggest thing Bobby did for the future ‘90’s Braves run was the stocking up on all those high school pitchers, most of which became good or great as players here or as trade bait for position players. I think Torre is a much better mgr now than he ever was in Atlanta.
By Johnny
October 10, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this
Bobby and Joe have been making big bucks for the last 12 yrs. so why even worry about their future. Both probably would enjoy having a summer off.
By Jerry
October 10, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this
King George is a retard. He simply dislikes Torre because Torre’s gotten all the attention. I’ll bet a slew of Yunkees won’t return if Joe really is toast.
By Drummerdad
October 10, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this
Randy, I think you’re right that Joe is a better manager now than he was with the Mets, Braves, or Cardinals. But, I don’t think Joe has ever handled pitching staffs terrifically well. I think the strength of his success with the Yankees was his reliance upon Mel Stottlemire to channel that pitching staff he had. But Joe is a terrific player’s manager. I got to see him play with the Braves a couple of times before he left for St. Louis.
By Indians
October 10, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this
Steinbrenner doesn’t realize that fat paychecks won’t buy desire in the post season. He thinks his payroll costs will get him there. The Yankees seem like they like to get the post season started as early as they can. Some players just want it more.
By Jimbo
October 10, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this
alex, you dont know what your talking about. Bobby was not the Gm that laid the foundation for Bobbys future sucess. he was just the mgr that choked . bet you have tattoo of bobby on your arm.
By Phil
October 10, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this
The writing is on the wall, and it’s in huge block letters. The Yankees are toast if they let Torre go. I think we’ll be looking at a return to the Yankees of the 1980s: above average records each year, but never quite good enough to make it to the postseason. If that does indeed happen, then Steinbrenner will change managers after every year or two. After a few years of that, then the freefalling Yankees of the early ’90s will begin to reappear.
Bottom line: Torre is the only guy who has brought lasting stability to the team and manager’s role since Stengel was let go in ‘60. If the Yankees drop Torre, the organization will take YEARS to recover.
By Roundup
October 10, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this
Highlights of a conversation I overheard in a dream last night?
BC: Hey Joe, congratulations on the great run you had in NY. Let’s talk about you coming south to manage the Braves. I’ll step aside now if you’ll come on down and manage. JT: Thanks Bobby. I think some southern cooking and all those young studs you have might be the ticket for me. BC: You’ll like this team. There are several talented youngsters that you’ll have a great time teaching and watching them put on a show in Atlanta for years to come. We’ve got a first baseman that hits lights out that we’re going to sign for the next decade. Don’t count on our third baseman for more than 100 games a year. Keeping that in mind will save a lot of frustration during the year. We’re long in the tooth with pitching but maybe you can give insight in to who we should pursue this off season. We’ve got a catcher that has the sweetest swing you’ve seen in a while but needs some help catching the ball. With your background you’d be great in helping him be as strong a defensive catcher as he is an offensive weapon. JT: I’ve got some good ideas for pitchers to look at and who to avoid. Sounds like just the team to pick my spirits up and get the competitive juices flowing again. JT: Talk to JS and let’s get this done. Enjoy your retirement you old codger. You’ve earned the break. Let me take this team to the promised land.
Then I woke up. Rats!
By willdave
October 10, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this
Although I am a big fan of Joe Torre and have been for many years, I do not see Steinbrenner keeping him as manager after this season. Of course, the Yankees went to an amazing five World Series out of Torre’s first six seasons as manager. They won four of those and almost won a fifth. However, the Yanks have only gone to 1 World Series in the six seasons since then and were upset by a scrappy Marlins team in that one appearance. These relatively lackluster results over the past six seasons have come about while the Yankees have continued to field by far the highest paid lineup in Major League Baseball. That is just not going to cut it with Steinbrenner, who is one of the most demanding owners in professional sports. I think he has tolerated Torre longer than he normally would have simply due to his incredible success from 1996 through 2001. However, after the Yanks very slow start in 2007, which ultimately cost them a division title, and their now customary collapse in the first round of playoffs, I doubt that Torre will be back. Besides, Torre probably doesn’t even want to come back anyway. He’d probably rather return to the broadcast booth and later take his reserved spot in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
By Reid in EAV
October 11, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this
Hate the Yanks, love Torre. Class guy, all around, and an even better manager and judge of talent than he was in Atlanta, where I remember him fondly for the only success the Atlanta edition of the Bravos ever had until the Schuerholz/Cox era. (Lucky 13!) Would love to see him back here if Cox called it a day.
Agreed, it’d be asinine for Big George to fire Torre. Even if he were only a better-than-average manager, the cardinal rule is that you don’t fire a guy like that unless you have someone better with with to replace him, and I don’t see it. (Showalter, again? LaRussa, in the Bronx? Seriously?)
I also agree with Mr. Bisher in that a lion’s share of the blame for recent early exits goes to Cashman and the front office. The ace Yankee teams of the mid-to-late 90s got there with a strong farm system (Jeter and Bernie Williams, to name just two of its products), then used that famous New York payroll to hang onto those folks and pick up missing pieces on the free agent market. This NY team overachieved, particularly down the stretch, a credit to its manager. That said, it was delicious watching them get clobbered by the Tribe.