Sports Columnists

By Nick

August 7, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

A good history lesson, but perhaps we should put an asterisk next to Ruth’s numbers, too.

The truth is, we’ll never know if Ruth was the “greatest ever” because he didn’t even play with or against some of the best players of his generation.

Not to take anything away from Ruth, but the real talent during his playing days could be found in the Negro Leagues. It’s a shame that even today we fail to recognize these players’ contributions to the game, much less their existence.

By Sid

August 7, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this

The Babe’s accomplishments, despite Nick’s comments about “real talent” will never be surpassed ! I believe he could hit anything that anyone could throw at him !

By gooogle

August 7, 2007 11:31 PM | Link to this

Nick last time I looked a home run didn’t recognize color. It is either out of the park or it isn’t. Doesn’t matter how fast your outfield is when it goes over the fence.

By Roger Conner

August 7, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this

Nick, you are an idiot. Furman, great piece. The Babe will always be the first and the greatest.

By Mike

August 8, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this

Hank Aaron’s video speech after Barry’s homerun was unbelievably classy. Hank, Barry, and Babe are the best!

By Nick

August 8, 2007 12:43 AM | Link to this

Look, there is no doubt Ruth was a great player. But would his stats look quite as gaudy if he faced stiffer competition? What would have happened if Ruth had to face pitchers like Satchel Paige, Martin Dihigo, and Smokey Joe Williams? We’ll never know.

I don’t mean to detract from Mr. Bisher’s article, but I just think that if you’re willing to call Ruth the “greatest ever” you have to at least entertain the idea that the level of competition wasn’t as high as it could be. Does that devalue Ruth’s stats a little? Yeah, in my mind, it does. Not sure how that makes me an idiot, but I digress.

Let’s put it this way: does the best soccer player in the MLS become the second best if Europe’s biggest star starts playing here? Yeah, probably. And what if Europe’s twenty best players started playing in the MLS? Suddenly the small pond just got a lot more big fish …

By Roger Conner

August 8, 2007 12:52 AM | Link to this

Nick, you are still missing the point. At some point you have to factor in the fact that Babe is a historic figure of grand proportions. It’s not just about statistics. Trying to figure what one guy would do in another era is a waste of time. Bringing in the soccer analogy is fairly lame at best by the way.

By heybud

August 8, 2007 1:08 AM | Link to this

I have always thought Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player of all time, because of his ability to both hit and pitch.

In addition if not for him, who knows if baseball would even be a sport today, what with the Black Sox scandal.

Babe Ruth saved baseball. No one appreciated the home run until he came along.

By Ryan

August 8, 2007 1:12 AM | Link to this

Furman’s point is the pitching.

By Chad

August 8, 2007 3:00 AM | Link to this

I think the soccer analogy is great, it shows that there are two different Leagues. Kind of like it was during the Babe’s era.

Babe was the best during his time at hitting homeruns. Bonds is the best at hitting homeruns during his time, hank’s time, Babe’s time and everyone’s else. As far as Babe being the best to ever play because he pitched, doesn’t convince me for the fact that he did not pitch his whole career or even the majority of it. Bonds on the other hand has been a five tool player for most of his career. Bonds was on his way to being the best player of all time before 2001. Just like I believe that ARod will be the best if he stays healthy.

By PoliticalMan

August 8, 2007 4:36 AM | Link to this

Best all around player ever: Willie Mays. Best pure hitter for avg and power: absolutely no doubt - Ted Williams. Give him back his 5 years in the service in his prime and his totals would still be unsurpassed.

Babe Ruth was the best absolute power hitter ever.

By GMAN

August 8, 2007 5:18 AM | Link to this

As a Georgia boy I cheered when the Hammer broke Ruth’s record, it was atremendous moment in history. But lets not forget the Babe, he was and will always be the greatest player in the history of baseball. Looking at the stats one can easily see Ruth accomplished more during his career, especially WS championships. Bonds is a disgrace, eventually he will be caught and all his records erased. Alex Rodriguez needs only to average 35 or so homers over the next 8 years to erase Bonds from history, Oh how I hope time flys by!!!

By orphah

August 8, 2007 6:10 AM | Link to this

The Babe’s the best. Both his hitting and his pitching were hall-of-fame caliber. He also changed the nature of the game, bringing it from deadball to the modern era. Add 20 homers per year for each of the five years that the Babe pitched and he would have well over 800 home runs.

As far as the Negro Leagues go, the only comparable player would be Josh Gibson, although Gibson never pitched. The Babe would have enjoyed even more home runs in the Negro League, since he wouldn’t have to face pitchers like Walter Johnson, Chief Bender, and Grover Cleveland Alexander.

By lee

August 8, 2007 7:43 AM | Link to this

A lot of Babe Ruth’s home runs went 300 feet or less in the right field corner of Yankee Stadium. During his pitching years, I believe he played outfield for Boston in his off days on the mound. It wasn’t like he sat on the bench for 3 out of 4 games and led the league in home runs while he was a pitcher. I believed he played everyday. You can’t add home runs to his total when he played those games.

By G-Man

August 8, 2007 7:45 AM | Link to this

You can put an asterisk by any hero in any sport, there are detractors for everyone. But I would rather have an asterisk by my name because someone thought my competition wasn’t strong enough, not because I was accused of cheating. All of these men have done great things in their time, in their way.

By bobby

August 8, 2007 7:53 AM | Link to this

The balls and bats didn’t have jack rabbits in them when Babe played, if so some of them might still be rolling somewhere.

By Mr. Penn State

August 8, 2007 7:54 AM | Link to this

Babe Ruth is one of the beloved figures in baseball history, so many people do not want to hear or recognize the fact that he may not have been as prolific if he had to play against Black players. (Let’s not forget that in head-to-head games, the Negro Leagues won over 60% of the time against MLB.) Plus, the Babe would have had to share the homerun stage with Josh Gibson (who had over 800 HR’s in his career). Next, even though Bonds has never been proven guilty, something just doesn’t “feel right” about his sudden change into a super-slugger. He was already well on his way to being regarded as one of the best ever…but the specter of steroids has erased all of that in many people’s minds. That leaves Mr. Aaron as the only one who did not take “enhancements” AND played against all of the best players white AND Black!!! Hank Aaron is the KING!

By orphah

August 8, 2007 7:57 AM | Link to this

Look at the stats, lee. The Babe had an ERA of 2.28 during his pitching years. He was 3-0 with and ERA of 0.83 in World Series play. And that’s just his pitching. If he was free to devote full time to hitting, an extra 20 homers per year is conservative.

As far as the short right field line at Yankee Stadium, Ruth’s blasts went well beyond the 300 feet.

By Mr. Penn State

August 8, 2007 7:57 AM | Link to this

Great comment, G-Man!!!

By Dan

August 8, 2007 7:58 AM | Link to this

The argument about not playing against the best is more than offset by the fact there where only 8 teams in each league. So the current league is far more diluted talent wise than in Ruths time. Further more he was so far ahead of his peers, his slugging stats for a season often surpassed entire teams. All this from a man who grew up in an orphanage.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 8:07 AM | Link to this

It was so hot today, that Barry Bonds struck out just for the breeze.

Hank Aaron is the king. It’s not enough to be tuff, you gotta be durable too.

Most aint.

By FRED

August 8, 2007 8:11 AM | Link to this

Here are some other stats on the greatest player to ever play the game. 2217 runs .342 lifetime batting avg 2062 walks the babe pitched in 10 different seasons .087 era in the world series 107 complete games pitched. any questions?

By holdingAJCaccountable

August 8, 2007 8:15 AM | Link to this

Mr. Penn State,

Where did you get the 60% stat? Not doubting that it’s true, just curious.

Chris Rock mentioned this on Bob Costas HBO show concerning the record.

Said something like “Babe Ruth has 714 ‘Affirmitive Action’ home runs”

I’m not sure we can automatically assume that Ruth’s stats would have dropped if baseball had been integrated. Any stats on how Ruth did against the Negro Leagues that can be prorated over a 154 game season? That would be interesting to find out.

But…I’d have loved to have seen Josh Gibson plugged into that 1927 Yankees’ lineup, that’s for sure.

Would they have walked Ruth to get to Gibson? Or would they have walked Gibson to get to Ruth?

By Oneiron

August 8, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

Dan made my comment before I did. The current talent is diluted to the point that many of the pitchers today would have never made it to the bigs. Teams are giving millions of dollars to pitchers with a less than .500 record. But, as was said earlier, there are so many variables between the eras it’s impossible to compare. Ruth travelled by train, never had to play at night. Today’s better equipment, steriods, etc., etc. All this will be moot when ARod breaks the record and we can forget about Bonds.

By Dan

August 8, 2007 8:26 AM | Link to this

Funny how people don’t comment that the negro leagues talent level was diluted lets do the math 16 teams with players supplied by 90% of the population, vs another 16 teams by players supplied by 10% of the population. Simple math will tell you which leagues stats were diluted more.

By Mr. Penn State

August 8, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this

FRED, My only question is how to consider someone the best if they don’t play against the best? It’s like a track athlete not competing in the Olympics, yet saying that they are the best in the world. (Remember world record holder Dan O’Brien in ‘92 who screwed the pole vault and failed to make the Olympic team?!? While people may have thought he was the best, he couldn’t claim it.) Ya gotta beat the best to be the best. Aaron played against the best and proved himself to be the best…even in the face of terrible racism and death threats against him and his family. Any questions?

By willdave

August 8, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

Because we are comparing players from different generations, choosing one player as the greatest ever is almost impossible. As some of you have already noted, Babe Ruth played during an era when many of what would have been his greatest competitors were prohibited from playing in the Major Leagues simply because of the color of their skin. We will never know how the Babe would have fared if he’d had to bat and play against these tremendous African-American athletes. I would never argue, however, that Ruth is one of the greatest baseball players of all time. As is Hammerin’ Hank Aaron.

By GE

August 8, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

How many guys here saw Ruth play or saw any of the players in the Negro leagues. Outside of Bisher, the answer is probably none. I have seen Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Alex Rodriguez,Sammy Sosa,Barry Bonds,Ken Griffey,Andruw Jones( his numbers will get better over the next 8 years)play. If Ruth was better(I doubt it very much) than these guys, then he deserves to be considered the best. However, as Nick says, I would like to have seen him compete against the players in the Negro leagues to get an adequate comparison. If I recall, a select group of all stars from the major leagues did play the all stars from the Negro leagues and I believe that the major league all stars lost more games than they won. I would love to have seen Babe Ruth play against Josh Gibson. Then we could put the argument as to who was the best to bed.

By Michael T

August 8, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

Any of 4 players can lay claim to Home Run King and have a good argument to back it up: Babe Ruth, that revolutionary Henry Aaron Alex Rodriguez, youngest to reach 500 and, probably the real king, Josh Gibson.

By TEC

August 8, 2007 8:44 AM | Link to this

Furman Bisher is right, the stats speak for them selves. Just check the record book and see all of what Ruth did.

By newday

August 8, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Forget Babe Ruth and Aaron. Barry is the home run king now so everybody just get over it.

By Michael T

August 8, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Add one more to the Kings of the Home Run: Mickey Mantle, in the book for the longest home run.

By newday

August 8, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Forget Babe Ruth and Aaron. Barry is the home run king now so everybody just get over it.

By orphah

August 8, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

The Babe hit AND pitched against the best of the era. He mastered both hitting and pitching.

Dan and Penn State define a person’s talent by the talent of those around them. This logic seems flawed.

By Mark

August 8, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

There is one thing that cancels out Babe Ruth being considered the greatest baseball player ever. He played in a segregated league and therefore didn’t play against the best players. As a result his numbers are inflated. I could even argue that Josh Gibson was better than the Babe during that era.

By Chris

August 8, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this

The difference is in choice. I could care less about the diluted talent or the 162 game season. Barry Bonds choose to cheat to break a record. Ted Williams choose to serve his country when he could have obliterated Babe’s numbers. Hank Aaron choose to ignore bigotry in his chase for the record. Babe Ruth did not choose to play in a segregated league. That choice makes all the difference and will forever eliminate Bonds’ name when we speak of the greatest players of all time.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

No, it’s Mighty Casey who is the King. Casey played for Mudville, and lead the league in open mic poetry for over 100 seasons.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

Ty Cobb was the greatest ever.

By Mike

August 8, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

If Ruth’s numbers are tainted because he did not play against Negro league players, aren’t Barry’s and Hank’s numbers similarly tainted because they did not play against the enormous talent of all races playing in their opposing leagues? For example, Barry has had few at bats against AL pitching.

By BABE WHO

August 8, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Barry was a Hall of Famer before the steroid era. Barry was great before 1998, yet the JEALOUS WHITE MEDIA kills him beause he will not talk to them and kiss their butt…. I am glad Hank did the video tribute…. Hank will NOW get his due. Here is why, before Barry began the chase, folks still said THE BABE was the homerun king, now Barry has put the THE BABE to SLEEP forever. We are finally starting to hear about Hank Aaron, FINALLY!!!!!!

By Boots

August 8, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this

Some of you guys make my butt crave buttermilk by introducing race into every single discussion.

That’s like saying Cicero would not have been the greatest orator of his time if Martin Luther King had been alive then.

It’s stupid and quite boring!

By dirk diggler

August 8, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

How can you be the greatest when you didn’t compete against all competitors? Michael Jordan is considered the greatest, he had Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc. Ali, the greatest he had Liston, Patterson, Foreman, Frazier. Petty had Earnhardt, Yarborough, etc. To me it’s like the NBA, NFL, and MLB calling themselves World Champions when they’re only competition is in the U.S. I mean I’m the greatest porn star because I competed against the best, Holmes, Jeremy, etc, lol.

By vw

August 8, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

Do you guys really think Babe Ruth would be able to hit a 100 mph fast ball from Nolan Ryan,Steve Carlton,roger Clemmons,Randy Johnson?Most of the guys that Babe Ruth played against worked part-time jobs at a warehouse or on a farm.He did not face the power pitching that Hank or Bonds faced.Yes the pitching is somewhat diluted but if Babe were to go up against the worst pitcher in the MLB today he probaly would get smoked!So no disrespect to Babe,he was the best in his era,but todays athletes are in better shape,faster and stronger.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

The greatest baseball player who was also the greatest public speaker was Lou Gehrig, and I say (say say) that with (with with) respect (respect respect)……

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Dirk could be the greatest porn star…it depends on how big his svanzschtooker is….!

He could be very popular.

By Mr. Penn State

August 8, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this

Boots, we only introduced race because it is relevant to this discussion. It just shows that the same way people try to place an asterisk on Bonds that the same could be done against Ruth. If you knock Barry, ya gotta knock the Babe.

Dan, since you’re such a math whiz, help me understand how that same small 10% of the population comprises about 90% of the NBA and over half of the NFL?!?

Orphah, I’m not taking anything away from the Babe. Just saying that even supremely talented individuals have to prove it against the best to be considered the best. It’s the same reason I feel that Ali is the greatest - he beat the best of the best. Tyson and Holyfield never had comparable fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Shavers and Jimmy Young to prove themselves against. Once again, you can’t claim to be the best if you don’t beat the best competition!

By drixie

August 8, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher:

This is one time when I totally agree with you. Hands down, Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player ever. Great pitcher, great hitter for average and power. No one is even close.

By John Austin

August 8, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

Furman Bisher, you’re a RACIST IDIOT. Ruth was great because he never played against the great black and spanish players who were not allowed to play for this racist country at that time. You need to put an ASTERISK next to Ruth’s drunk a* records. America get over OJ Simpson. Ask Chipper has he ever taken drugs. He’ll lie and you’ll believe him, because he is white.

By Is this a joke!

August 8, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

LOL! Is this article a joke? or a desprate attempt by the old establihment to hold on to records that they no longer have? If Babe Ruth was playing today, he would be stuck in single A ball for his whole career. That’s like saying Bob Cousy was a better point guard than Steve Nash, or that Lance Alworth was a better wide out, than Jerry Rice. I know it’s hard for all of you but LET IT GO 756! is here to stay! atleast until A-Rod get’s it.

By Is this a joke!

August 8, 2007 9:41 AM | Link to this

LOL! Is this article a joke? or a desprate attempt by the old establihment to hold on to records that they no longer have? If Babe Ruth was playing today, he would be stuck in single A ball for his whole career. That’s like saying Bob Cousy was a better point guard than Steve Nash, or that Lance Alworth was a better wide out, than Jerry Rice. I know it’s hard for all of you but LET IT GO 756! is here to stay! atleast until A-Rod get’s it.

By GE

August 8, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Hey Boots,

You need to get your head out of your Boots. Obviously, you have never felt the sting of racism from a Black person’s perspective. I have and it is something that you never overcome. Sorry that that you consider it stupid and boring. You know history can be mis-represented in print. Did you really hear Cicero as an orator? WOW!!!!

By Boots

August 8, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

There is no freakin’ hope for some of you guys. You cannot see the great progress that has been made in this country —- you hide behind “race” and miss the point that those blacks who are prepared are reaping the benefits of this great country.

The hatred and anger expressed by many on this blog is indicative of those who have not prepared and are consequently missing out on the benefits of the burgeoning black middle class community in Atlanta.

John Austin you are to be pitied.

By Thomas jones

August 8, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

Let it go man Ruth play in a white only league just as Josh Gibson play in a Black only league where they great? Yes both where but let it rest who was the Greatest. all things being equal I think Gibson was the Monster of them all.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Jimmy the Greek found out about the foolhardiness of trying to compare white and black sports abilities.

Yet we can sit here and dis the homies wid the swingalicious thang—fool!

I dont know what I just said. Now I’m frightened.

By Bill

August 8, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

The Sewell stat is great, but you missed Wee Willie Keeler. In sixteen seasons and 8596 at bats stuck out 23 times. Yes, 23 times. That’s ridiculous. That my friends is a great hitter. Also, if the Babe didn’t play against the “obviously” superior talent of the negro leagues, doesn’t that cheapen Barry’s record because he played against all those non-negro league players?

By Kevin

August 8, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

The Babe should have an asterisk next to his record because his homers were affirmative action home runs. black players were not allowed to play.

By wow

August 8, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

It was said best when someone mentioned that this is an attempt by the old establishment to hold on to something that is no longer relevant. You cannot compare Babe to the talent that exist today. Sports stars are bigger faster and stronger. He was a man playing against boys but that does not mean that he was tested by others who matched his skill level on a nightly basis. Let it go old foggies..you are probably saying that the 1920s was better than today or something else that is no longer relevant. Babe is still relevant in your eyes because he accomplished some feat long ago. Thats why movies like Rockey allows you to dream that such feats are possible. Like coming back after getting your a* kicked for eleven rounds to KO the opponent in the final round. Yeah ok..White power.. Only in america.

By orphah

August 8, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Babe is the only player to have mastered both hitting AND pitching and has the stats to prove it. There are perhaps better hitters and pitchers, but no one else has put up the numbers Babe has in both categories.

By Gary

August 8, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

It’s sad that so many baseball fans on this blog have so little respect for past accomplishments. They only believe what they have seen for themselves during their lifetime or on TV. I used to be the same but on a whim I just looked over some of the Babe’s stats and was amazed. He actually hit more home runs during several of his seasons than entire teams. Maybe you can’t compare athletes then to the professional athletes now with modern gyms and supplements to help them get bigger, stronger, and faster. But only a narrow-minded fool would not be impressed by how much better Babe Ruth was than everyone else during his day. And yes, there were plenty of pitchers back then that could throw 95 mph fast balls and wicked curves. What’s even more impressive is that most of them played for the love of the game, not for love of $$$$$.

By dave

August 8, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this

** i am so tired of hearing about ruth…unfortunately this record isn’t about bonds passing aaron at all. the truth is it’s about bonds having a place in history that would be more noteworthy than ruth…put an asterik by ruth’s name because he didnt play against black or latin ballplayers…your the best when you play against All the best!

By Jim

August 8, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Yes, the Babe is the greatest player ever. The reason I say it is because of his years pitching with the Red Sox. Imagine having a dominant pitcher like Roger Clemens and then he morphs into someone like Barry Bonds. I’m using players of today. Now, as far as not facing the best competition of his era. That is true. But, for the record Ruth wanted to play against the Negro leagues and was not a racist. But, back then players had to keep their mouths shut, which was unfortunate. Also, several blacks looked up to Ruth, claiming him as one of their own.

By Braves fan reality check

August 8, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Hellooo!

Chill folks! Aren’t you forgetting someone. The greatest player ever in baseball is Francisco Cabrera!!!

By nateG

August 8, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Yes, Babe never played against the Negro Leagues. As far as I’m aware there was never any effort to exclude latin players from MLB. (I don’t know when they started playing baseball in the Dominican but I’m pretty sure they weren’t playing MLB caliber ball there in the twenties and thirties.) Anyone dragging race into this question is the true racist. Race simply isn’t a factor here. Babe has a mythic quality about him today. Perhaps because the time in which he played is unknown to most people today. (Its really not that long ago, but still out of reach). Babe changed the way baseball was played. No one was close to him in his day. He was Mr. Baseball during his time. And the point of this whole article was that Babe was an ace pitcher in addition to being the best slugger of all time. Can you imagine the selfish Bonds, or the premidonna A-Rod pitching every fourth day. Not a chance. The legendary stature of Babe only grows when compared to the greats of other eras. Its not about statistics. It never was. Bonds on the other hand has never been a good ambassador for the game. Only Giants fans cheer him. No one likes this man and its not because he’s black. Its because he’s a jerk and a cheater. And that’s how Bonds will be remembered: as a jerk and cheater who happened to hit a lot of home runs. Hank was a great ballplayer. And a great homerun hitter. But he never lead the league in homeruns. Hank’s main attributes were consistency and longevity. Hank was never as great a homerun hitter as Ruth. I would take the best five years of Babe’s career over the best five years of Hank’s career any day. But Hanks is a smart guy. An all time class act and a great ambassador of the game. A living legend and a great man. Babe was never a great man the way that Hank is, and Bonds never will be.

By Donald

August 8, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

These arguments will go on as long as there is night and day, however I would recommend that you all look inside yourselves, in particular Furman Bisher, for your true motivation regarding your analyses. I am sure if you did and were honest you would admit that your views are colored. No pun intended!

By Tab

August 8, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Do steroids help you steal 500 bases?

Do steroids help you have the best on base % in the history of the game?

Do steroids help you win 9 gold gloves?

Do steroids help you have the most walks in a single season, in the history of the game?

By Boots

August 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

I agree that generational comparisons are meaningless —- regardless of the sport —- if for no other reason changes in the quality of the equipment used.

Suffice it to say, the Babe played his schedule and was the best of his day.

Hank played his schedule and was the best of his day.

Barry played his schedule and since MLB has not found him guilty of a rules violation, he is the best of his day.

You can’t compare Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus and Woods. They played their competitors and were the best of their day.

The athletes of every era played the opponents that faced them and attained the measure of respect based on their success against these opponents. Leave race out of it! It’s irrelevant.

By Joe

August 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Babe 714

Aaron 755

Bonds 756

Gibson 800+

The numbers do not lie, discussion over!!!

By Joe

August 8, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

Babe 714

Aaron 755

Bonds 756

Gibson 800+

The numbers do not lie, discussion over!!!

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

The entertainment empire called baseball needs homeruns or it dies.

Without Homeruns people would not form conga lines and shout, “Lou, Lou, LouLouLou!”

Thus, Ruth be the greatest. Few people know this, but Babe Ruth had only four toes on his left foot. He also only had one arm, and Spina Bifida.

He was the King.

By Hank Aaron

August 8, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

It’s not my fault I was good until I was 41 when I was voted into my last All-star game. Shewt, I grew up on the lorals of consistency and hardwork. Barry, eh, I can’t say the same for, possibly cut some corners somewhere along the way, I think. I say if something’s worth doing half-assed, it ain’t worth doing at all. I got that from my daddy back in Mobile. The best I ever saw though was Teddy Williams, before that Ty Cobb, wow those are two great hitters.

and Nick you idiot. Have you ever heard of Lou Gerhig or Carl Hubbell or Walter Johnson. Oh I forgot the Hall of Fame was inaugurated in 1999 when you were born. You are never allowed to write on anything concerning baseball ever again.

Gawd I love writing about the history of the game.

Love- Hammerin’ Hank

By Hank Aaron

August 8, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

It’s not my fault I was good until I was 41 when I was voted into my last All-star game. Shewt, I grew up on the lorals of consistency and hardwork. Barry, eh, I can’t say the same for, possibly cut some corners somewhere along the way, I think. I say if something’s worth doing half-assed, it ain’t worth doing at all. I got that from my daddy back in Mobile. The best I ever saw though was Teddy Williams, before that Ty Cobb, wow those are two great hitters.

and Nick you idiot. Have you ever heard of Lou Gerhig or Carl Hubbell or Walter Johnson. Oh I forgot the Hall of Fame was inaugurated in 1999 when you were born. You are never allowed to write on anything concerning baseball ever again.

Gawd I love writing about the history of the game.

Much love Atlanta- Hammerin’ Hank

By dave

August 8, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

* guys it is so unfortunate that we must have this debate about who is the best. times change as with all things. i just dont want to hear about babe ruth nor josh gibson when it is aarons record that was recently surpassed by bonds. if there is to be any comparrison, let’s compare those two as they are 1 and 2 for now. when A-rod breaks it, then we should compare bonds and a-rod. there is one common thing in most of the comments i have read and that is Let It Go! no one today wants to hear about babe ruth every time someone does something special in baseball…black, white, hispanic or otherwise! surely i truly believe this is an old way of thinking especially for those who dont care for people of color*

By Curtis

August 8, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

I mean if you are talking about the greatest home run hitter ever you must mention JOSH GIBSON who hit over 900 plus home runs in the Negro Leagues. I think Josh, Bonds, Aaron, and Ruth are all great players who should be recognized.

By Joe

August 8, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Why do we have courts in America when we already know everything?

We as citizens sitting in our living rooms think we know everything. We know Bonds and Sosa used steroids without any positive tests. But we know that Ripke, Gwynn and Glavine “Did it the right way”.

Let’s face it we do not know what anyone did in there home. If we are going to put asterisks out there then we need to attach them to all the players who played from 1998 until now. If it is such an amazing feat that Bonds accomplished these feats after the age of 40 then we need to look at Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux, Clemens, and any player who does anything after the age of 40.

But the genius minds of us Americans only target certain idividuals.

By wildbillhiltner

August 8, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

Ruth could not even make a varsity high school team today.

By Sneakin' In

August 8, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

OK. So now Josh Gibson hit over 900 home runs. Do I hear 1,000?

By dave

August 8, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Donald i think you have made probably the best comment of the day and that is the point i was trying to make earlier. i could care less truly who the best ballplayer is or was. it’s just that any time bonds is mentioned we want to try to remind the world about babe ruth. what is the real motivation behind this piece today? that in a nutshell is my argument. it is good to revisit the past, but living in it is something all together different…it’s SAD!

By GE

August 8, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Boots. You do forget history as you may be deemed to repeat it. Of course, some blacks have escaped some of the econmic woes. Likewise, some of us have not. I keep seeing New Orleans and Katrina. This was a big wake up call. I for one do not hate you or people who think like you do. By the way, I am prepared and have been so for many years. You are trying to lump us into one bag to prove your point. You need to stop. I feel sorry for you.

By Clanky

August 8, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

This whole discussion has gotten to be a joke. ‘Ruth isn’t the best because he didn’t play against the black players’ Fact: he played and exceeded against the best that were offered up to him. He didn’t make the rules he just went out and dominated the league he was put in. If we go along with these standards we can dilute every great athlete that ever played their given sport. You could say Jim Brown was not the greatest running back because he never played against defenders as big and as fast as the current player. Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell weren’t that great they were so much taller than all of the other players they played against. TIger Woods isn’t that great he has much superior equipment than Nicklas and Palmer had. If they had that in their prime Woods would not be able to compete. Should I go on or are you starting to see how stupid this all sounds. It is impossible to compare players from different eras fairly because there were so many factors brought on by politics (in the case of Ruth), technology in training, medicine, equipment etc. We need to respect each player for what they gave their sport and the memories and records they left behind that gives the acheivements of Bonds, A-Rod, Tiger Woods and many others the excitement they add to the game today. Ruth was a great player, Aaron was a great player (to this day I remember where I was when he hit his record breaking homer and I was only 9 years old at the time) Bonds is a great player and there will be many more, but these guys set a standard that adds excitement to the game.

By dave

August 8, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

i will say this…some of you guys are hillarious-truly hillarious. i dont mean this in a sarcastic way. i mean truly hillarious…the drunk a** comment and the spina bifida lines…classic!

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

Barry Bonds should be nicknamed, “The Juice”, dont you agree?

By Just a Thought

August 8, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Well this has certainly been a stimulating discussion and the opinions raised here are all true. Oh, wait a minute. How can they all be true if there are so many conflicting opinions? Because they are all just that… opinions. When you get right down to crunch time, that’s all we have. Our opinion. Was The Babe a great player? Sure, no question. Was he the best of his era. Sure, absolutely. Is the best to ever play the game? Maybe, but we’ll never know that for sure because of so many of the very good points that have been raised here. He played in a segregated league. The equipment was substandard compared to today’s equipment. The science of the game had not evolved as it has today, and about a dozen other reasons.

Mr. Bisher believes that Ruth is the best. Fine. That’s his opinion. (It also happens to be mine, but I recognize and welcome the right of others to have a differing opinion.) Those of you who belive that The Hammer is the best, I won’t argue with you. He’s definitely a class guy and one of the greatest players and best representatives the game has ever had. What about Barry? He’s a fine ball player. Even without steroids (if he is guilty of that, which hasn’t yet been proven) he is still one of the best, if not THE best, of his era.

We are talking about three men (and four if you want to add Josh Gibson) who lived in different eras, faced different situations and all still posted eye-popping numbers. How can you deny ANY of them their place at the table of greatness?

Just a thought.

By vw

August 8, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

Babe Ruth was a drunk,womanizer,had a child outside his marriage,overweight,cigar smoker,gambler,etc.Yes he is a great role model for our kids!

By David in NYC

August 8, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Tab 10:28AM — Yes, steroids do help you do all those things. Check out the interview on the current Costas Now with one of the designers of the drugs in question. If they didn’t have any effect, why would anyone take them?

For all those who claim Josh Gibson hit 800 or 900 or 10,000 home runs: Show me ANY valid statistical evidence to prove this. You can’t, because records were not kept in any detail in the Negro Leagues.

For all those who say you cannot compare players across generations: Yes, you can. That’s what something called “statistical analysis” is for. Read something on sabrmetrics, or anything by Bill James and open your minds.

And for those of you denigrating Babe Ruth:

• He did not choose the opposition he played against (whereas Barry DID choose to take drugs, whether it was “flaxseed oil” or something else.

• He was an outstanding pitcher in his day; in fact, probably the best left-hand pitcher in the majors for two years: back-to-back seasons of 23-12, 323IP, 1.75ERA, and 24-13, 326IP, 2.01ERA. Tell me that Bonds, Aaron, Josh Gibson or any other slugger you care to name could even pitch batting practice, and I will laugh till I bust a gut.

Not only was Ruth the greatest HR hitter of all time (one per every 11.8AB, while Bonds is one per 12.9 and dropping, and Aaron is one per 16.4), but he was also one of the best pitchers of his era. Name any other player (in ANY sport) who is remotely close to that accomplishment.

Do some research and talk about FACTS, not a bunch of idle speculation that you made up. Here’s a good place to start: Babe Ruth.

By supa

August 8, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

The reality is that it’s very difficult to compare players of different eras. Level of competition, ballpark size, # of games per season, along with a host of other variables confound any surface-level analysis.

It’s preposterous to think level of competition doesn’t affect absolute results. But it’s just as difficult to prognosticate how those results would have varied with different competition.

It’s interesting to listen to everyone’s opinion on the best player ever, but NO ONE can factually argue that level of competition doesn’t make a difference.

By Analchord

August 8, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

I did research Babe Ruth. He couldn’t hack it as a player. He was a bagman for the boys downtown.

He was in it for the beer and hotdogs, and the occasional cheerleader.

Ruth was an entertainer. If you understand what america and media was in the 20’s and 30’s, then he probably was the greatest entertainer of all time.

By clanky

August 8, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

Hey vw you just described half the player in the NFL and NBA. What’s your point?

By Joe

August 8, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

People grow up and please cut the race card crap. Ichiro is better than both Aaron and Ruth and he is Japanese. Anybody ever heard of Sadaharu Oh? Josh Gibson couldn’t hold his cleats for crying out loud. Both whites and blacks are inferior to Asian players.

By dirk diggler

August 8, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

can’t we all just get along (insert tear here) Add another “Chubby” to the list of my porn awards. I’m a seven time winner you know & it’s all natural no pumps, viagra or nothing.

By Chad

August 8, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what the fuss is all about, The Babe did play in this era. His name was Cecil Fielder. The time is uncomparable. Ruth was better than all of the whites in a younger and much smaller MLB. The league being bigger makes it much tougher to play at a higer level. “Anyone dragging race into this question is the true racist. Race simply isn’t a factor here.” That is crap, you have to consider it there were two leagues for crying out loud. One league where the great players were paid good for their time and the other league where they truly played for the love of the game. It’s not like there were 30 teams or anything I think there were only 16 yet they did not have space for the players of the negro leagues. It’s not like that era was so great that they decided to keep it small. They did not share because of their hatried for minorities and that is a sham. I believe that although some of the players might not have viewed it this way. They did not stand up for what is right and in my opinion is almost as bad. There are two black players a head of Ruth and still people are trying to say he is the king. So what if he pitched before he became a great slugger. Back then the league was so small, he probably sold hot dogs and beer between his at bats.

By Truthman

August 8, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Ruth’s pitching record has always been my trump card when it comes to the “Best Baseball Player Ever” debate.

Not only did Ruth win 94 games, he only lost 48, and pitched the BoSox to their last World Series championship before 2004.

Ruth stands alone! Period!

By Morris

August 8, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

Some here claim that Ruth is the lesser player because he never faced talent from the negro leagues. At least one claims that the talent in the negro leagues was better than that found in the then all-white major leagues.

Isn’t the opposite just as true? The players in the negro leagues did not face off against those in the majors, so who is to say the black players were any better, or worse for that matter?

Are we to judge every accomplishment - in any field or endeavor - by whether every race, creed, color, sex, or nationality had a crack at it? Ridiculous.

By Truthman

August 8, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

To Chad,

Most players were NOT PAID VERY WELL. Almost all players, up until the late 1960s, had regular jobs they worked in the off-season.

The astronomical salaries paid today are a recent phenomenon.

By Joe

August 8, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

To the race baiters: If you really want to get technical about it the blacks and whites are at the bottom of todays game. Asians and latinos rule the roost last I checked. The objectivity on this board is lacking.

By Whitey Fjord

August 8, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Sounds like we need to have race war so we can settle this once and for all. So, who gets to pick first?

By James mayo

August 8, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

The Bambino has to be the greatest! A pitcher who hit Homeruns, what pitcher does that today? I mean even if they did hit, you may see a pitcher hit a total of five maybe six all season from all hitting pitchers. This said, Bonds, Aaron both can not compare to the Babe. Yes they broke his record, but then look at the record before the Babe broke it, 100+ HRs! He shattered it. IF anyone is the all time best player, Cal Ripken Jr.’s name should be mentioned, who don’t play that hard that long?

By Ronnie B

August 8, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Who hit more home runs; George Ruth or Josh Gibson?

By Leroy Rogers

August 8, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher, per usual-good stuff re: The Babe. Thanks. I have read some of the stuff…so much racism, I cannot believe. I thought color went by the wayside a long time ago! When are they going to change the name of the “other league” to African-American League? Also, what does NAACP stand for? Who are “colored people?” I know what their race was in the military: Negroid! My opinion of baseball today is: too many teams for major league talent. Did you see the pop fly, off third base, neither of the Mets could make a play on last pm? Why I no longer watch baseball….too long and very boring. All the throws to first base trying to pick off runners. To walk a batter, four pitches required. How stupid! Lastly, the parade of relief pitchers used in most games…I just don’t have time for..other things in life more important. Lastly, number of Negroes, Blacks, African-American or whatever they choose to be called today…sure have had their percentage of active players exceeded by others south of here—- don’t know what they want to be called though. One thing “people of color” almost forgot that, the current label, can’t deny is that the Babe Man left a legacy that has been talked about a long, long time! Our grandchildren will get to follow Bonds career in the future. Wonder why Micky Mantle’s talent wasn’t mentioned. {Mickey had “bad wheels.”} Did he strike as often, per centage wise, as the overpaid Andruw Jones? My opinion of Hank’s video is classless! Anyone who can’t pick up the phone to congratulate the person of a broken record is a poor loser. Now you know why I don’t listen to “talk radio!” In closing with these long, rambling remarks, let’s talk about something besides one’s color. We don’t have a choice in that! Oops, I almost forgot Sheffield’s comment re: Derek Jeter, a class person—was Black and White! Yuk!

By @@

August 8, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Point of order. The homerun fence in the outfield was 300 feet farther away from home plate when Babe Ruth lived. In the 60’s, the umpires moved the fence in closer so they could call the plays in the outfield better. Before, the players were just to gaddanged far away to see whether they trapped the ball or not.

I think that makes Ruth the king.

‘muff said.

By newday

August 8, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

No Clanky, vw just described most of the hockey players.

By Chad

August 8, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

To: Truthman and Joe,

I stated great player’s were payed good not everyone was payed great like today. Babe got 80,000 dollars in 1930 and 1931 also. This was during the great depression were teachers were paid 840 dollars annually. That seems pretty astronomical to me. Whites and Blacks maybe at the bottom but at least other ethnic groups are able to play. Don’t get me wrong Ruth should get his respect he was the greatest to play in his era by far and Bonds is the greatest in all eras (756) (73). So what if he is a jerk he is still the homerun king! He has not been proven by anyone to have cheated that is why bud went to watch him play. IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN!!!! But 756 and 73 are right there in Babe’s face!

By GM

August 8, 2007 1:21 PM | Link to this

Did Babe Ruth ever hit against Satch Page? No, one of the greatest Negro League pitchers, The man was 42 and won rookie of the year in 1960, in the major league. Thats how tough the Negro league was, Ruth did not play against minority players, Blacks or Latino’s and did not speak out to integrate baseball!

By The BlogFather

August 8, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Joe Dimaggio was the king of baseball, and look at his wife, Marilyn Monroe.

No, he was the greatest. eh?

Forgeddaboutit

By Doug Barber

August 8, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Babe Ruth turned more people on to baseball than any other player before or since.

It’s possible that Barry Bonds has soured more people on baseball than anyone else in the history of the game.

Ruth, born an orphan, gave the game more than he took from it. Bonds, born to an all-star and raised in privilege, took more than he gave, and managed to express feelings of being put upon in the process.

That’s the bottom line for me.

And Henry Aaron? The man is an all-time great player and one of the class acts of American sports history.

By jerry springer

August 8, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

If you guys knew any baseball history,then you would know that in Babe ruth’s era,no one swung to hit home runs,back then it was all about base hits,base running,and base stealing.No one was trying to hit homeruns but Ruth!thats why he had so many,he was the only one doing it at that time.Hitting home runs was like showboating back then.Its about like doing a end zone dance,or a slam dunk today.A lot of players like Ty Cobb did not respect ruth because of him hitting homeruns all the time,So to compare Ruth back then to Hank or Bonds is unfair,because in the 50’s until now more players swing to hit homeruns.So Ruth was a great homerun hitter, but he had no other competiton because know one else was hitting home runs.Before Ruth hit for 714,the record was 131 hrs.So i think Hank and Bonds are better hr hitters because they beat out all the other homerun hitters of their time,where Ruth had no compition but himself.

By badboy

August 8, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

Babe Ruth is statistically the best to ever play in a "all white" league. His batting average, home runs per at bat, and home runs per games played are still the best. I think Thomas Jones needs to learn to spell, it's were not "where. I also thing analchord has the right name. He is obviously talking out of his anus. Who does he think he is impressing with "dis the homies wid the swingalicious thang". Speak english man, if you can.

By Harry Mendell

August 8, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

It doesn’t matter who he played against. Some of the greats never played against each other. Anyway Ruth is my favorite all time ever. I love this guy so much. Born in my hometown of Baltimore MD and going to the most hated team NYY I still love this guy for all its worth. Wish I was back then and seen every game. RIP Babe the greatest ball player of all time.

By BeachFloridaSunTan

August 8, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

Hank Aaron is STILL, and will CONTINUE TO BE, the HOME RUN KING. He is the best ever hitting, and Babe Ruth is the best ever in hitting and pitching. It doesn’t matter if the courts come up short, IT IS OBVIOUS the LYING CHEATING LOSER used steroids. He hasn’t broken any record, but A-Rod will, and I don’t have a problem with Alex setting the record.

By Tyrone

August 8, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Stop with all this Ruth Talk, all of the better hitters were in the Negro Leagues and that is a fact! Bonds broke the record yes i am glad he did, Steriods does not do anything for your eye and hand cordnation. So everybody just get over it!! Everytime a Black person does something thrilling there are always those many White persons that try to make it look bad.

By Edd

August 8, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

In 1931 Baseball changed the Foul pole rule. If you hit the pole before 1931 it was a foul ball, after that ,homerun. One year the Babe would have hit 104 homers if this rule would have been in place before 1931. He pulled the ball a lot. How many African/American pitchers do we have in Baseball now? So don’t say Babe wouldn’t have hit as many against Negro pitchers, There are not many black pitchers anyway. Most home runs , Barry with an *.

By quint

August 8, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Did anybody read the article last week about Barry’s mechanical advantage with his huge arm guard. I always thought he wore it because he had been hit on the bare arm many times. No, he started wearing armor before the rules change that says you can wear armor only if you have a doctor’s declaration of need (or something like that). Anyway, the article was about how that device is as much a swing aid to lock in Barry’s arm and elbow in order to insure a repeatable swing every time. No wonder his swing is always “locked in.” I will search for the article and to provide the link.

By quint

August 8, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Check out this link on Bonds’ mechanically advantageous armor.

[http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/articledisplay.jsp?vnucontent_id=1003621797}

By JAYBEE

August 8, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

“THE BABE” PLAYED IN AN ERA WHEN THERE WERE NO LATINS AND NO BLACKS ALLOWED IN THE STADIUM. I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE AN ASTERICK BY HIS NAME IN THE RECORD BOOK. HE DID NOT HIT HIS HOMERS AGAINST THE BEST IN THE WORLD. MCGUIRE, MAYS, AARON, SCHMIDTZ, ALL HIT AGAINST THE BEST THE WORLD HAD TO OFFER AT THE TIME. BABE HIT AGAINST THE BEST ‘WHITE’ PLAYERS. THEREFORE AN ASTERICK SHOULD BE PLACED NEXT TO HIS NAME

By VoiceofReason

August 8, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

This argument is not based on race, but rather on competition. It just so happens that the level of competition during Babe’s era was diluted because of race. All records (MLB and Negro League) should have a pre-integration asterisk. Babe simply didn’t play against the entire pool of eligible competitors. Larry Bird is undoubtedly one of the greatest basketball players not because he dropped 50pts. a night on the French Lick All Stars, but because he did it against Dr. J, Kareem, Magic, MJ, Barkely, and all of the other elite competitors of his era. Babe did not.

By Kelley

August 8, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Furman, as usual you nailed it. Great piece of writing from one of the greatest and most insightful writers of all time. My only regret is that our friend and fellow baseball lover Lewis Grizzard is no longer around to add his thoughts on this. It definitely would have been interesting.

By Mike

August 8, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

If I understanding the reasoning of all the race baiters, Bonds cannot possibly be the greatest hitter because he never played against the great latino and multi-Cy Young winner Johan Santana. Indeed, Bonds knew there were great minority pitchers in another league, but he did NOTHING to try to face them, choosing instead to feast on inferior pitchers in his own league. Why don’t you pocket the race card for this one? Overuse dulls its effectiveness.

By Rusty

August 8, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

Edd, very interesting stat regarding the foul pole.One has to wonder how many more dingers The Great Bambino,The Sultan of Swat would have recorded had that rule gone the other way for what was it 15-16 Ruth seasons before hand. Another good point,Where are all the great black pitchers today much less ones who would have pitched to Ruth had it been allowed? There arn’t any.

By Jennifer Lopez

August 8, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

All of you crying out that Ruth or whomever didn’t speak out against segregation can shut the hell up. I’d like to how many of you weenie-a*******ed saints would have had the balls to stand up and do what you chastise others for supposedly not doing.

It is really easy to declare your opposition to something once that position can no longer harm you. Pitiful.

By Politically Incorrect Truth-teller

August 8, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Guys, do your research. While there were outstanding performers in the Negro League, they did not compile accurate information regarding their statistics. Even the Hall of Fame acknowlegement for Josh Gibson states, “…he hit around 800 home runs.”

By Drez

August 8, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

I’m not a Bonds fan, but you can’t ignore the facts. Bonds and Ruth, hitting numbers are debatable. However, Bonds is a better defensive player than Babe, a better base-stealer, a better athlete. So, how does that make Ruth the greatest ball player??

By eric the red

August 8, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

The Babe is still the man- the ball today is juiced ,too - I hope Mr. Bonds does not suffer an early demise like many pro wrestlers

By Alan Boyer

August 8, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Mr. Bisher,

I take issue with your position that Babe Ruth was the greatest. I have listened for the last 30 years to old white men wishing for a time that only people who looked like them be held up as role models to their children. Yes, I’m using the race card because I think race is playing a great role in the stories and comments about Bonds. As in the 1900s, black men are guilty as accused while white men are held as heroes.

Many writers, like you, have appointed themselves prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner. If you have interviewed witnesses, reviewed the evidence of doctors reports and test results, please let us know.

To pass over Hank Aaron while referring to his message as stiff-necked to rekindle the glory of Ruth’s success is outrageous. You know, Babe Ruth smoked. It can be argued that he used a performance enhancing drug…nicotine. Allow Barry to have his day. Many players use steroids in baseball. But it’s the players who must hit, catch and throw the ball. Not steroids.

By The BlogFather

August 8, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Babe ruth was in baseball for the beer, the hotdogs, and the occasional cheerleader. In fact, he was the first player in history to make it to third base on a date.

Lou Gehrig had a swing and a running gate that was magic. Joe Dimaggio was a graceful as ever existed. Ty Cobb was maybe the greatest piece of offensive chaos on the field in the history of baseball. You did not want Ty Cobb on base….EVER.

So, all in all, I have to go with Shoeless Joe Jackson who had to stop playing when they invented glass beer bottles, cause the fans kept pelting home plate with broken glass cause the umpires were so blind.

The Umpires today have ruined baseball with their moving strike zone. The theory today is that if a pitch is thrown so that it should have fooled the batter into swinging then it’s a strike, even if it is 4 inches outside.

That’s not baseball.

By Ducini

August 8, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Forget all the myths. The home run king is Barry Bonds the last time I checked. For people to claim that Babe Ruth is the greatest because he alse pitched is ludicrous and shallow. Just because Deon Sanders played multiple positions in NFL does not make him the greatest football player ever. Cast emotions aside and appreciate what Barry has done in the midst of all the turmoils.

By B.

August 8, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this

Anyone whom agrees with this article (and some of these comments) is either extremely ignorant or racist. When the first Black ballplayers entered the MLB, they immediately dominated. Many African-Americans do not play the game today because of a lack of interest, not a lack of talent. I am disappointed in the AJC for this article. Give Bonds his credit! Barry, Barry, Barry!

By Stanky

August 8, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

In defense of Barry I bet he makes the better home run champion than his two predecessors. Babe was usually half in the bag or hungover, Aaron seemed angry most of the time, but I predict Barry will prove that a druggie makes for a better champion. He certainly has a happier disposition and makes for better copy.

By July Jones

August 8, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

Bonds is the HR king of baseball, no disputing it. The fact that he was juiced getting there is going to put an * by his record in the minds of some folks, but the reality is that Ruth is now 3rd. MLB didn’t act against Bonds or McGuire or Sosa so you have to respect the record if for no other reason than MLB recognizes it.

Personally, I still think Hank was the best ever.

By Jack

August 8, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Wow! The race baiters are out in rare form today! You folks need to learn not to judge a man byu the color of his skin, as MLK Jr. preached but by his accomplishments. Ruth was a better home run hitter than anyone else that has played the game. Aaron hit a lot of home runs but let’s face it he was not even considered the best player of his era( Mays & Mantle were), Bonds is a joke as a human being, arrogant, selfish, which is amazing to me considering the privileged (perhaps that’s it) lifestyle he grew up with. Both Ruth & Aaron will mean far more to the game’s history. Rogers Hornsby , one of the all time greats is a somewhat analagous player in terms of being disliked so strongly, you folks that keep bringing up the Negro Leagues really overestimate the level of play in those leagues in my opinion. As far as Negro League All Stars beating white major league players which group had more motivation to perform in those games? Comparing the 2 different leagues( Negro & AL & NL) is like saying Ed Marinaro was not a great running back because he played in the Ivy League,. Oh & I would take Lance Alworth over any other pass receiver that ever played the game too. “Bambi” was terrific! I like Ruth as second greatest of all time just behind Ty Cobb.

By Morris

August 8, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

Ruth played most of his career in the American League. That means he only faced the best of the National League during the post-season or the year the played for the Braves.

Not counting his twilight years with Brewers (as a designated hitter!), and the few post season games in which he appeared, Aaron only faced National league players.

Shouldn’t we stick a whole bunch of asterisks by their names?

There are endless combinations of players, leagues, races, and eras that never faced one another.

This argument is pointless you bunch of morons.

By Eugene

August 8, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

Aaron is the best by a mile. He is Third in hits with over 3,000. He is first on RBI’s and so on. I take nothing away from the Babe. He hit who pitched to him. Bonds was great before the allegations. Its his personality we detest not his baseball prowess. And let’s face it. Even Hank Aaron states that Willie Mays was the best player who ever played. He should be in the conversation. I think any of these players could play and dominate in any era.. Let’s move on and enjoy the ride.

By Doug Barber

August 8, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

It’s sad to watch some african-americans float absurd arguments in their endless search for self-esteem based on their race. And unfortunately, Barry Bonds is one of those african-americans who feels the need to invoke race every time he opens his mouth.

By Doug Barber

August 8, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

Eugene, when Mays was asked, at his Hall of Fame induction, “Who was the greatest player you ever saw”, he said, basically, “me.” And his claim is credible.

All this race talk is an artifact of American culture. You can’t have an argument in the USA without having someone, in the end, invoke race.

Unfortunately, what would be good-natured and un-decideable arguments among fans get tinged with this racial ugliness.

Let me be the first to add this: The greater part of the ugliness comes from the dark side.

By Brian Nichols

August 8, 2007 7:06 PM | Link to this

Best all around player ever: Willie Mays. Best pure hitter for avg and power: absolutely no doubt - Ted Williams. Give him back his 5 years in the service in his prime and his totals would still be unsurpassed.

I agree with both, give ted 5 more years and he puts in work. no one will ever hit 400 again. Babe played in smaller parks and in a smaller league.the talent when babe played did not match the talent found from the late 40’s til now. Furman is a old coot who only wants to hype up a ancient player no matter what sport he goes back pre 1940 and finds someone to call the greatest..I look forward to furmans eulogy

By MYCHAL

August 8, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

I GUESS A OLD WHITE SHOULD SAY SOME STUPID S* TO DEFEND HIS OWN.

By black

August 8, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this

ruth was a drunk and womanizer, but we consider him great. he was over rated. We have a new king and it’s barry bonds. hank you are the biggest sell out. furmain you are a fool. Moore too

By GE

August 8, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this

Doug Barber,

Nice try, but we still know your color.Your quote is very interesting to us race baiters. Keep on casting your bait and pretending.

By Bill

August 8, 2007 9:56 PM | Link to this

Comparing different generations in any sport is nigh onto impossible. Some of yesteryears greatest boxers could not be champions today because of the propensity to stop fights these days because of cuts, just as many of today’s fighters would have been dq’ed in the age where the rules of boxing were more strictly enforced (i.e. excessive clinching, holding and hitting, etc.) How would today’s quarterbacks in the “Don’t touch the qb NFL” have fared in the days of even Bradshaw and Staubach? We will never know. The rules have changed. Has expansionism in baseball really watered down pitching as some have suggested making a hitter’s job easier since the time of Aaron? No way to know. The fact is that players in all sports in each generation have played against the opponents they were allowed to play and within the rules as they were applied at the time. I have equal respect for Ali, Marciano, Ruth and Aaron.

By ben

August 8, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

I believe Josh Gibson had over 900 homeruns. There was Oh, who played in Japan, who has more than that. I hope that history will see Barry Bonds’ record as a testiment towards an open secret which is, by the way, still going on. Eventhough, I hurt as a Braves fan that Hammerin’ Hank holds the record no more, I’m trying not to judge Mr. Bonds. How many of us are walking around, enhanced by some drug that a doctor gave us? If given the chance, how many of us wouldn’t do the exact same thing? Remember, chances are, he’ll never spend a day in jail. Allowing for even mediocre financial planing, his descendants are set for the rest of their lives. Is he a good role model, I think not. But then again, the Giants don’t pay him to be a role model. They pay him to hit a small white ball very, very far. I don’t think we’ve heard the last of the steroid in America’s grand game. We’ll never really know when the steroid era ends. We want to think the not knowing will turn people away. I don’t think it will. I think he has cheapened it. I think that they ought to take him out of the hall once he’s dead, and then put an asterisk by all of his records, denoting that he cheated in the worst possible way. For he made a record that is sacred to us tainted by his race for money. I once heard Ernie Johnson, Sr. once say that he thought fewer records would fall because people made more money. I think that the opposite is true, more records will fall because they can make money.

By Lex

August 9, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

t player but his being the absolute best is nonsense. However, he should have an asterisk besides is accomplishments since he did not compete against the very best players in the US let alone the world. He also never faced relieve pitchers.

By oldschool

August 9, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

As far as Ruth - he should have a huge asterisk by his name. He played in the all white era of MLB. Distance from home plate to right was only 296 FT in Yankee Stadium. So face facts career record currently for HRs is 757.

By Q

August 9, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

He actually hit more home runs during several of his seasons than entire teams

true. in his best season(1927), ruth hit 60 homeruns. they played the pirates in the world series that year. the most homeruns anyone on the pirates had was 9, not even double digits, lol. all that shows is how poor the competition was. and this was a world series team!

Babe has a mythic quality about him today

yea, maybe to white people. he’s like elvis, rocky marciano, or eminem. great at what they did, but catapulted past more deserving minorities because of the color of their skin.

No one was close to him in his day

you mean no one in the segregated league, right?

You could say Jim Brown was not the greatest running back because he never played against defenders as big and as fast as the current player.

you could say jim brown wasn’t the greatest running back for a myriad of reasons, but that is not one of them. he played against the best competition available at that time. not in a racist league that didn’t allow people in simply because of the color of their skin.

so who is to say the black players were any better, or worse for that matter?

this is actually a valid point. you could take the words of greats like ted williams or joe dimaggio who stated that a negro league pitcher was “the best pitcher in baseball” and “the best pitcher I ever faced and the fastest.”(google to verify) or you could look at minorites in sports today and ask yourself why would it have been any different back then?

OK. So now Josh Gibson hit over 900 home runs. Do I hear 1,000

lol. according to MLB’s hall of fame plaque, they admit that josh gibson hit “almost 800 Home Runs”. taking in account the shoddy record keeping and undeniable adversity these players faced, you can probably bet it was more than 714.

Anyone dragging race into this question is the true racist. Race simply isn’t a factor here.

then why did mr bisher not even mention the greatest homerun hitter of all time?(according to the mlb hof plaque) perhaps it just slipped his mind?

and another question, why when barry bonds is about to break the all time record is he writing an article about babe ruth? what is his real motivation? to make sure people don’t forget about ruth? is that something we really have to worry about?

By Matt the Brave

August 9, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

Nick (1st entry), you must not have been reading Bisher all that long, have you? He is usually one of the first people to name off a TON of the Negro League stars. He covered the Crackers when they were in Atlanta, and also wrote a fabulous book about when the Braves came to Atlanta. Make sure to know your own history before you start mouthing off.

By Fred

August 9, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Ruth the greatest—-no sir. Ruth’s career is tainted—-Didn’t play against black or latin baseball players.

By Gene

August 9, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

There is no question that Gibson and the Negro League players were great, but Ruth did play against them in exhibition games. To say that they were greater than Ruth is speculation. Ruth gets bashed for playing in a segregated sport, but he didn’t make the rules. He likely would have welcomed the competition. His affection for black kids, and orphans of all races,was genuine and open. He likely shared some black relatives as many Caucasians learn when they examine their family tree. Race is simply not an issue when discussing Babe Ruth’s performance.

By Late entry

August 9, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

“Recent investigations into Negro League statistics, using box scores from newspapers from across the United States, have led to the estimate that, although as many as two thirds of Negro League team games were played against inferior competition (as traveling exhibition games), Josh Gibson still hit between 150 and 200 home runs in official Negro League games. Though this number appears very conservative next to the statements of 800 to 1000 home runs, this research also credits Gibson with a rate of one home-run every 15.9 at bats, which compares favorably with the rates of the top nine home-run hitters in Major League history. The commonly-cited home run totals in excess of 800 are not indicative of his career total in “official” games because the Negro League season was significantly shorter than the major league season; typically consisting of less than 60 games per year. The additional home runs cited were most likely accomplished in “unofficial” games against local and non-Negro League competition of varying strengths, including the oft-cited “barnstorming” competitions. Though these numbers are still based on incomplete evidence, this study does at least provide concrete proof that Josh Gibson was a power hitter of very high caliber.”

And all was quiet in Mudville.

By Paul

August 9, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

And I would point out that the only illegal drug Babe Ruth ever used was ethyl alcohol (he played during prohibition). Let us alos not forget the boy from Royston, GA who still holds the record for stealing home - and the last season Cobb played was 1928.

By trottinghometudd

August 9, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

Didn’t and won’t read your article. I have read them in the past and know from experience this one is no better and either are you. Shame on you for writing about a hopped up ball player from a time when most of todays fans could care less.

Let’s hear it for Hammering Hank!!!

By trottinghometudd

August 9, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Didn’t and won’t read your article. I have read them in the past and know from experience this one is no better and either are you. Shame on you for writing about a hopped up ball player from a time when most of todays fans could care less.

Let’s hear it for Hammering Hank!!!

By Me

August 9, 2007 6:38 PM | Link to this

It’s true the Babe never faced Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton but Hank and Barry never faced Walter Johnson or Christy Matthewson either.

By Tyrone

August 9, 2007 7:14 PM | Link to this

Ruth outplayed the Negro League players every time he barnstormed against them. The argument that an integrated league would have dropped his numbers is absurd and racist

By Gene

August 9, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this

Babe played at a time when every one else was hitting 5 or 6 home runs.A couple of years he hit more home runs than an entire team.He also did it before we had pitchers who wouldn’t have made it past Class A.He also did it in 1/3 less at bats.

By Mark Fowler

August 10, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Why in the world are people calling Nick an idiot when he is making a completely valid point? I definitely fall into the category of those who think the “greatest player” discussion ends with Ruth because of his unbeatable combination of power and average along with the fact that he wasn’t just a good, but a dominating pitcher, as Mr. Bisher makes in his article. Let’s see Bonds or Aaron or anyone else win 94 games in 5 years as a pitcher and still wind up with 714 home runs.

All that being said - it’s not difficult to extrapolate that Ruth’s numbers might have been diminished if a significant portion of his at-bats had come against the best of the Negro League pitchers instead of against the Joe Shmoe’s at the end of the MLB rotations and bullpens.

Then again - history gives many examples of great HR hitters doing their best work against the greatest pitchers. Bonds has the most HR vs Smoltz and Maddux, etc, while the pitcher that Aaron homered most against was Hall of Famer Don Drysdale.

By dennis jaconetta

August 10, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

The year was 1921 The Babe hit 59 homeruns on the books. But lost 55 homeruns due to crazy rules and much larger ball parks. He lost 4 to foul rule which says even if the ball goes over the fence fair . If it curves foul it is foul. He lost between 40 and 50 homeruns to huge ball parks that are non existant today. They were either doubles , tripels or long outs.He lost a few to the rule that says if man is on third and you hit a homerun in a tied game in the bottom of the 9th. the homerun don’t count , only the winning run from third. If you want to get a feel of the real babe Plese read Bill Jernkinson’s book “The year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Homeruns.

By dennis jaconetta

August 10, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this

again from Bill Jerginson’s book There is a common missunderstanding that Ruth had no experience with black athletes. The fact is that the Bambino had a rich a vibrant history of competition against the best black players of his era. He played often against Negro League All-Stars across the United States and Cuba(1920) in fall barnstorming tours. In those games Ruth exceeded his Major League statastics in batting average, slugging average, and homeruns percentage. For the most part ,they enjoyed playing against Ruth and greatly admired and respected him. They knew that Babe paid a price for competing with them. Famed Negro Leaguer Judy Johnson said that Babe Ruth was one of his heroes. He added that he often played against Ruth , and that his teams could never seem to get him out no matter what we did. Buck O’neal recalled the time that Ruth faced the legendary Satchel Paige sometime around 1938 In Chicago. Babe was about forty-three at the time and had already retired.Nonetheless , he launched a tremendous homerun to centerfield in his first at-bat. That left Paige speechless for perhaps the onlytime in his life. you could read the rest of the story in the book on page 220