AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2007 > March > 31 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTrading Dye was Braves’ second-worst move
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Terence Moore
Early during the 1997 season, I was in New York a few weeks after the Braves’ Designated Geniuses made the second-worst trade in their Atlanta history (David Justice was the worst). Anyway, there was Barry Bonds, pulling me aside in the visitors’ clubhouse at Shea Stadium and asking a question with wide eyes.
“So what the heck were they thinking when they got rid of the next Dave Winfield?” said Bonds, the San Francisco Giants slugger, referring to Jermaine Dye, shipped to Kansas City for Michael Tucker and Keith Lockhart, neither going to the Hall of Fame soon.
The next Dave Winfield has evolved into the splendid Jermaine Dye, and that’s been enough to make the Braves’ DGs look even sillier. Take Saturday, for instance, when Dye hinted at Turner Field of remaining among baseball’s elite. During the final spring game for his Chicago White Sox, he went 2-for-2 with an RBI to end the exhibition season hitting .361. Not bad. The same goes for his exploits last year that had the Players Choice Awards naming Dye the American League’s Outstanding Player (.315 batting average, 44 home runs, and 120 RBIs, along with his stellar fielding and throwing in right field).
All of that was after Dye helped the 2005 White Sox win their first world championship in 88 years. He became the most valuable player of that World Series after going 7-for-16 (.438) with a home run and three RBIs during a sweep of the Houston Astros.
But the Braves’ DGs didn’t want him, and get this: During Dye’s first and only season with the Braves in 1996, he resembled, well, the next Dave Winfield.
Or another Andruw Jones.
Said Marquis Grissom, the Braves’ center fielder when Jones and Dye came along back then, “You look at what those two guys did at an early age and at how they played the game, how they weren’t scared, and you look at the fact that Dye was 6-foot-5, could swing the bat, could run and had one of the top arms in the game with accuracy.” Then Grissom paused, before adding with a sigh, “Everybody knows that dude can hit in a wheelchair, man. Why trade somebody like that?”
You don’t. Remember, too, Dye finished his 98 games with the Braves that season batting .281 with 12 home runs, 37 RBIs and a shiny future, heavily illuminated by Grissom.
The relationship between mentor and pupil was so close that Dye accepted an invitation to move into the Fayetteville home of Grissom and his family. The mentor even gave the pupil a curfew of midnight, which Grissom said Dye violated. “He was just like any other kid. A little giddy, wanting to go out there and experience life, but he listened,” said Grissom, now retired and living in his native Atlanta. “He was well-behaved, but he needed a little more toughness. As the years went on, he went out there on the field and did get a little tougher.”
There were several trips to the disabled list, though. The worst came in the 2001 playoffs when Dye broke his leg while playing for the Oakland Athletics after he was dealt from Kansas City. There also were three more injury-plagued seasons after that for Dye in Oakland. Then the White Sox sealed their destiny for winning it all by signing Dye to a free-agent contract before the 2005 season.
Just think. That season, along with the eight before it and the ones afterward, could have featured Dye in a brilliant outfield with Jones and whoever else.
“I mean, I was a rookie back then, so I didn’t know what getting traded really was about,” said Dye, 33, famously quiet, who now shares a home with a wife and three kids instead of a mentor. “My thought process was to just go over there [to Kansas City] and do what I can do. When you’re that young, you don’t realize baseball is just a business. Things happen.”
Yeah, but some things shouldn’t happen, especially when it entails dealing goodness that has a chance for greatness.
Permalink | Comments (103) | Post your comment | Categories: Braves / MLB, Terence Moore
Comments
By Clyde
March 31, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this
It seems like Bobby doesn’t like black people.
By farthammer
March 31, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this
Terrence, Jermaine is not the second coming of Dave Winfield. He was an All-Star once in Kansas City (because they had to have one) and once in Oakland, last year. His All-Star years are the only years he’s hit over .300. Those are the only two years you’ll find his name among the league leaders. He’s a career .277/.339/.486 hitter. Doesn’t sound quite like the hitter Marquis described.
By mike
March 31, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this
Terence Moore is the greatest hindsight writer in the history of journalism.
By Palamas
March 31, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this
Clyde: Then why did the Braves take Michael Tucker in return for Dye? Maybe it was just a bad trade, not an act of racism.
Jerk.
By Bulldog Bry
March 31, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this
Hindsight on line #2, Mr. Moore.
By Chris
March 31, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this
That is a real shocking column there Mr. Moore. How did you come to such a hard conclusion? It was pretty obvious in 2000 that it was a bad trade, let alont 2007. And Clyde, get off the racism thing… really, cmon buddy.
By Black Power
March 31, 2007 7:56 PM | Link to this
I read that the Braves plan to trade all of their black players just so TM has something to write about.
By BIG DADDY
March 31, 2007 8:01 PM | Link to this
Atlanta management is stupid.
Kansas City management is stupid.
Oakland’s management is stupid.
Terence Moore is ??????? a writer who lives in the past and writes racial articles all the time. Terence, do you ever write any other kind?
If I remember correctly Atlanta won championships over and over with Tucker and Lockhart. Oh well, you just can’t get through to Terence.
By Judge Snails
March 31, 2007 8:16 PM | Link to this
But “Homer” Simpson—Braves announcer Joe Simpson—said it was a good trade for both teams today
Of course Joe is more concerned with being a good company man than any kind of objective reporting.
By Gator Nation
March 31, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this
Terrence, you’re not even close. Prior to telling you why though, this is a brutal article. Yes, the Dye trade was terrible, as was trading Grissom and Justice for Lofton and Embree. Both absolutely awful trades. However, you don’t evaluate a trade and then rip the people who made it 7 years later. You write about it the next day, maybe at the end of that year. Looking back on a trade like this by the media is just trying to set up controversy, oh, and you did. Nice.
Anyhow, this is not the 2d worst trade in franchise history. That trade, if you don’t move Lofton/Embree down, which I do, is trading Brett Butler and Brook Jacoby for Len Barker. That trade, in one fell swoop, destroyed a division-winning team from the season before, one which likely would’ve won again and possibly gone to the World Series almost a decade before the “Worst to First” team of 91.
By Dave
March 31, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this
Terence you are the real racist. No doubt about it.
By Warren
March 31, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
This is the dumbest article ever. You say Lockhart and Tucker aren’t hall of famers but Jermaine Dye isn’t a hall of famer either!!!You act like hes Roberto Clemente!! He’s 33 years old yet he only has freakin 236 career home runs and a .277 career batting average. These are not hall of fame worthy for a power hitter. Its not even close. Dye has only had 2-3 excellent years and the rest were average or slightabove average. This was a good trade, we got two good everyday players. Michael Tucker was our starting rightfielder from 1997-1998 and Lockhart was our strating second baseman from 1997-1998 and was an integral part of the braves bench later on. Terrence Moore you should sit in a corner and have quiet time.
By Darren
March 31, 2007 9:28 PM | Link to this
Terrence,
The Justice trade was not the worst trade in Atlanta history (although it was tied for the most heartbreaking for me with the horrible Murphy for Parratt trade). The Brett Butler/Brook Jacoby for Len Barker was by far the worst trade in club history. At least in the Justice trade they got Kenny Lofton in return, yeah sure it was bad, but not the worst. Even though the Murph was old, his trade was a pretty bad one as well. I didn’t like the Wainwright for J.D. Drew trade either, I know JD did good for one year, but Wainwright was our best arm in the minors and shouldn’t have been dealt. Ronny Gant being released also p** me off big time.
Anyway Terrence, I didn’t like the Dye trade at all. But what was your real motivation in writing this article. Makes me wonder?
By cheaphillian
March 31, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this
The worst trade in Atlanta Braves history was the Ed Mathews for Bob Bruce deal. Mathews was a future Hall-of-Famer with 493 career home runs. Sure, his best years were behind him, but he should have been allowed to hit number 500 with the Braves. At the time, only six other players had reached that milestone. Mathews also heard about the trade on the evening news. The Grissom/Justice for Lofton/Embree trade was horrible, but Terrence probably doesn’t want to remember what a horse’s @$$ Justice was.
By Me
March 31, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this
Still riding that David Justice horse? He was here for 8 years. They won the Series once in those 8 years. Hardly Joe DiMaggio.
By TheSouthernJackAss
March 31, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this
Guess this means the Royals made the same bad move…the Rockies made the same bad move…the Athletics made the same bad move…and most likely, somewhere in the near future, when baseball economics come into play, the White Sox will also make the same bad move…
The Braves had two young outfielders at that time, a skinny Jermaine Dye, and Andruw Jones who could shag flyballs like Willy Mays, they could only keep one—they sure as hell made the right move when they chose to keep Andruw!…
Of course, they could have stood them both side by side, under a bright light, and thought that maybe Dye was a shade or two darker skinned than Andruw, so using that criteria, they chose to keep Andruw—but they shipped the ‘brother Dye’ to KC!…
Next season, watch what kind of offers Andruw Jones gets as a free agent in comparison to Jermaine Dye’s value…Moore, you and your racist crap is beginning to get a bit pathetic….
By nerdboy
March 31, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
Those ‘designated geniouses’ got 2 solid years of production from Lockhart & Tucker while Dye was struggling in KC. It just so happened that he eventually broke out and became a respectable ballplayer. Im sure if Schuerholz could see 3-4 years into the future, he’d probably do things a little different. Take a look back at some of the other things the ‘DG’s’ have done though: McGriff, Sheffield, etc. I’m sure you werent complaining when Melvin Nieves or Odalis Perez were traded (but then they arent black either are they?)
And Dye being ‘Another Andruw’? Give us a break Terrence. Andruw leads every category by a wide margin except batting average (.267, Dye’s career BA is .277) and has 1000 more at bats.
By Rick
March 31, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this
I would like to see the day when no one responds to these dumb posting by our token democrat T. Moore. He writes nothing of intrest. It is all “I told you so, hate whitie” BS. He is incapable of a original thought. Lets start a ignoring this walking turd and stop posting.
By TLC
March 31, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this
Hey…did yall know the Boston traded Babe Ruth? Thanks for the update Terrence…jeeezz. Why do they keep him around?
By Rick
March 31, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this
I told you , he is the “token bro” Can’t fire them in this town. he could come to work, pass out drunk with his pants around his ankles with a kindergarten class watching and he would scream “racist” when he got fired. Afirmative action means never really earning a paycheck and being ok with the concept.
By Carroll
March 31, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this
Isn’t journalism all about hindsight by its very nature?
By steve
March 31, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
Ms. Moore, Have you had time to decide whether the trade for Smoltz was a good one or not? How about the trade that brought Babe Ruth to the Yankees, or that brought Frank Robinson to Baltimore from the Reds. Wonder why no team has made you their GM with your uncanny abilities..When Dye makes the HOF I will personally purchase your flight to the ceremony (one way of course).
By Najeh Davenpoop
March 31, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this
Apparently the people posting messages calling Moore a racist conveniently forget that Michael Tucker is black too — a fact I’m sure wasn’t lost on Terence Moore. Moore gets so much crap from the dear readers of the AJC for supposedly being a racist, but the more I read these blog posts the more I’m convinced that his readers are the ones who are looking to cry about racism at every opportunity. I read the article three times and didn’t see a single reference to Dye’s race in the entire article. This article is not about race, it’s about trading a prospect with great potential for two journeymen with mediocre potential. I haven’t been around long enough to know if it was the second-worst move the Braves ever made (probably not) but it certainly wasn’t one of Schuerholz’s shining moments, and it wasn’t a move I liked when it was made. Then again, it’s not the only time Schuerholz has traded away a big-time prospect for a short-term investment — see Adam Wainwright for an example.
By blh
March 31, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Where is all this racist stuff coming from? This was just a straightforward column with no hint of racism whatsoever. You may or may not agree with what he says but to say there’s some racist implication in the column is a huge stretch.
By George "Boston Brave". Spitz
March 31, 2007 11:25 PM | Link to this
The trading of Jermaine Dye, however misguided, was not racial. The Braves received Michael Tucker, who was also black, in the trade. That being said, as an old Boston Brave fan since 1931, who had moved by the time the Braves signed pioneer negro Sam Jethro in the early 50s, the team should so more sensitivity with respect to retaining Afro American players, not just players with black skins, such as Edgar Renteria from Columbia, Andrew Jones from Curacao and Brayan Pena from Cuba. I think Willie Harris should have made the team especially after his excellent peformance at bat, on the bases and in the field during Spring training.
By Don
March 31, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
Employing Terence Moore was the AJC’s worst move.
By Chris
March 31, 2007 11:32 PM | Link to this
Here are Jermaine Dye’s batting averages for each of his years in the league, beginning with 1996: .281, .236, .234, .294, .321, .282, .252, .172, .265, .274, .315.
RBI totals: 37, 22, 23, 119, 118, 106, 86, 20, 80, 86, 120.
Damn, why did we get rid of such a productive, injury-free guy?
Mr. Moore, do you actually think about things before you put them to paper? And, if so, do you actually read your articles before submitting them?
If so, please be advised that I believe you can legally sue your own brain for non-support.
By Chris
March 31, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this
By the way, I offer $100 to anyone who can prove that any individual involved with baseball, other than Barry Bonds, has ever compared Jermaine Dye to Dave Winfield of their own free will. That is absolutely ludicrous.
By Chris
March 31, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this
Why should the Braves show “more sensitivity with respect to retaining Afro American players”?
Wouldn’t the Braves be more responsible to their fan base if they showed more sensitivity with respect to fielding the best team possible? Why should they be concerned with the racial makeup of the roster?
I wasn’t aware that Equal Opportunity extended to Major League Baseball…
By He's not your "boy"
March 31, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this
I love how the same racist a$$ will sit at his computer and type 50 letters all under different names in order to trash a man because of HIS race.
He’s a grown man and he can write what he wants. It’s called commentary. Why would you read his column if you hate him so much you stoner?
Do you realize that all of the stereotypes that you assign to TM are the very ones that are routinely applied to southerners in general??
You’ve got politicians down there who not only don’t believe in evolution but don’t even think that the Earth revolves around the Sun. You’ve got millions of illegal immigrants from around the world clogging our cities and tens of millions of Islamic fundamentalists who want to kill us.
Britain is becoming an Islamic country and the Chinese military owns three thousand businessess in this country. You have to press a number on the phone just to have a conversation in English. Yet Africans in America have fought in all of your wars and your problem, your BIGGEST problem is two black people. Michael Vick and Terence Moore. No, make that ALL black people.
I steer business and clients away from Georgia all of the time. People like you are one of the reasons. See any irony in Earl’s last name being HICK-ey? Didn’t think you would Jethro.
By Chris
March 31, 2007 11:50 PM | Link to this
“I love how the same racist a$$ will sit at his computer and type 50 letters all under different names in order to trash a man because of HIS race.”
This from a guy using a pseudonym. Priceless.
By Coach
March 31, 2007 11:54 PM | Link to this
Len Barker , now that really was the worst trade the Braves have ever made. Trading Justice was the Braves way of saying he should have kept his mouth shut and just played ball. Keith Lockhart played six seasons for the Braves and they got two very productive seasons out of Micheal Tucker in 97-98. After all , the Braves only made it back to the world series in 1996 without Justice and continued to do just fine until last season. Trading Dye was in hind site , a mistake. But to bring it up ten years later , why Terence , why ? Could it have something to do with your Andruw Jones , Rafael Soriano , Edgar Renteria are not black because they have Hispanic last names and Caribbean roots ? Now , that really is a racist point of view on your part…….. Terence.
By Roper
April 1, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this
Mr. He’s not your “boy”, Just wanted to let you know, you misused the term irony in your previous post:
See any irony in Earl’s last name being HICK-ey? Didn’t think you would Jethro.
In literary terms, this would be considered more of a coincidence.
By Coach
April 1, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this
Oop’s , I should have said the Braves made it to the 1999 world series without Justice.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
Didn’t even notice. I thought when you said “the Braves only made it back to the world series in 1996 without Justice” you were using “only” with a bit of sarcasm. Guess that shows that not everyone is as big of an a—hole as am I…
By SeattleBrave'sFan
April 1, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
Just think. That season, along with the eight before it and the ones afterward, could have featured Dye in a brilliant outfield with Jones and whoever else….I’m still thinking. Please, quantify, qualify, whatever, do something to back up a statement like that. You act like we got rid of Jeff Bagwell or John Smoltz in a trade way before their stars began to shine. And really, almost 10 years later you are writing this type of article. In 10 seasons since he was traded, he has produced 3 seasons worthy of the praise you are heaping. The outfield we have had over the years has easily matched his production.
By Niner
April 1, 2007 12:22 AM | Link to this
Why was it a bad trade???? We gave up a young player who would eventually be above average for an average player who would produce more now. It happens all the time. It called a typical baseball trade. We won what - nine more divisional championships? Obviously, giving up on the kid was no big deal.
BTW, Terrence is racist. We have/will never see an article from him that that says we should have never traded Jason Schmidt…and he actually is an All-Star. As far as the Braves…I’ll avoid that one.
By Bobalicious
April 1, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this
The worst trade in Braves history was AOL for Ted Turner. The 2nd worst was Jacoby and Butler for Barker… not to mention allowing Henry Aaron, Eddie Matthews, and Warren Spahn to leave while nearing the end of their careers… look at Vinnie Castilla, we lost him because we didn’t protect him in the expansion draft… How about Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Javy Lopez, Mark Lemke, Steve Avery, Jeff Blauser, Keven Millwood… what did we get when they left? This is not 1957 where a player starts and ends his career with the same team so get over yourself and remember this isn’t life… it’s just baseball. J.Dye’s loss brought us two players that helped us get to the World Series, maybe not a good trade but at least the outcome was great.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 1:12 AM | Link to this
Yes, we lost Vinny in the expansion draft. Man, if only we had had a capable 3B for the past decade…Oh, wait. I think we did. And I think he won an MVP, something Castilla sees only during his REM time.
By DAP
April 1, 2007 1:31 AM | Link to this
wow, alot of hate on this thread.
it does suck now to think that dye could have been a brave, but seriously…we did win the division like 9 years in a row after he left, and the guys we got for him had alot to do with it.
i dont think it was a bad trade, because the result was a winning ballclub.
also, i would have sucked for alot of years before it got better. he was hurt, or unproductive for most of his early years until recently.
i say let bygones be bygones. i for one really like ho the braves have turned out for the past 15 years, despite many of my favorite players leaving. (justice, Pendleton, crime dawg, glavine, maddux, ect…)
By Bobalicious
April 1, 2007 1:32 AM | Link to this
Chris baby… Chipper was in the OF, we got Vinnie back for a few years and he played 3B… where have you been dude?
By Daybed Wagmoe
April 1, 2007 1:49 AM | Link to this
dye has been great these last couple years, make no doubt about it, and he would’ve made a difference in our lineup and outfield. but, is he really that great? i mean, he’s a .277 career hitter, and last year was his first .300+ year since 2000. he’s hit 30+ HR 3 times out of 11 seasons. plus, if we kept him, would we have brought in sheffield?
barry bonds said that jermaine dye was the next dave winfield? well, barry bonds also said that he never knowingly took steroids, so i won’t buy the whole “next dave winfield” praise, coming from him.
By N8
April 1, 2007 1:50 AM | Link to this
Hmmmm.
In 1997-1998 Jermaine Dye had the following combined stats:
12 HR, 45 RBI, .234 BA, with 4 SB
During the same stretch Michael Tucker had:
27 HR, 102 RBI, .265 BA, with 22 SB
Keith Lockhart?
15 HR, 69 RBI, .263 BA, with 2 SB
The way I see it. Lockhart for Dye was DAMN NEAR an even trade. Plus we got Tucker to boot!
Let’s not forget that we SWAPPED McGriff for The Big Cat in 1998, who gave us:
44 HR, 121 RBI, .305 BA, with 7 SB
Basically in 1999, Dye started a 3 Season “run” of averaging: 27 HR & 114 RBI
That was however followed by a 5 Season “run” of averaging: 15 HR & 48 RBI.
At what point would we have given up on relying on him during that stretch??
The last two years he has averaged 37 HR & 103 RBI.
For his career SINCE leaving Atlanta, Dye has averaged: 22 HR & 78 RBI. According to baseballreference.com - Dye’s 162 game average is 29 HR & 100 RBI. The ONLY problem with that is that he has played as many as 145 games in his 10 FULL seasons (not counting 1996) in the bigs….FIVE TIMES!! In his 10 full seasons, he’s averaged 122 games played. Quite simply….THAT’S NOT ENOUGH.
Coincidentally, since 1997 ALL Braves Starting RF’s (the ones with the majority of AB’s Tucker, Jordan, Sheffield, JD, Francoeur), have averaged: 24 HR & 89 RBI, and 144 games played.
So the RF’s we have put in on the field since trading Dye have averaged: 2 more HR’s, 11 more RBI’s, and 22 more games played.
So tell me again Mr. Moore, HOW has this turned out to be a HORRIBLE trade???
Feel free to “man up” and post a reply like DOB would.
By N8
April 1, 2007 1:59 AM | Link to this
BTW: I forgot to add in my last post, for those of you wondering if we paid more for our GUNS FOR HIRE in RF, than had we kept Dye.
Since 1997 Dye has averaged a 4.62 million dollar salary.
The Braves RFr’s have averaged 4.81 million.
That looks like a good old fashioned WASH if you ask me.
By Steve-O
April 1, 2007 2:55 AM | Link to this
Moore, you serious?? You’re gonna really post this blog?? What is this 1997? Jermaine Dye??? Dave Justice?? Get over it, theyre LOOOOOOOOOONG gone. How is that in ANYWAY relevant to opening day 2007? Why dont you take a piece out of DOB’s book and write some relevant solid stories you idiot. Let me guess not signing Brian Jordan back was stupid because he can still be on the Braves and be black?? Get over your color BS its 2007 not 1947. Your columns are aggravating and you p** off 95% of us.
By He's not your "boy"
April 1, 2007 3:13 AM | Link to this
Roger, Earl is not a real person. That would make it coincidence. Earl is a hick, a lovable hick but a hick. It’s not ironic, it’s planned.
Chris, everybody posts using a nom de plume on the blogs. Ooooh, how priceless. I bow to you thou elegant wordsmith. Instead of dealing with the point, that there are people who read this column and bring race into it even if TM doesn’t mention race,then post under multiple names calling TM a racist, you complain about me not using a “real name”
Genius, pure genius. Yep, you’re a real example.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 3:33 AM | Link to this
I wasn’t skirting the blog’s issue. I was merely pointing out the fact that you called someone out for hiding their identity while you did the same thing.
bobalicious, for Vinny’s 2 seasons here his stats look like this:
‘03 BA .232, ‘04 BA .277.
‘03 RBI 61, ‘04 RBI 76.
Chipper’s stats:
‘03 BA .305, ‘04 BA .248.
‘03 RBI 106, ‘04 RBI96.
Chipper outperforms Vinny in 3 of these 4 categories, WITH AN MVP TO BOOT.
Vinny Castilla has never won an MVP or a World Series. I think I’ll take Chipper at 3rd. Even though he was better in the outfield than Vinny was at 3rd.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 3:36 AM | Link to this
By the way, boy, “everyone” would imply every single person. Yet I clearly use my real name. Therefore, your statement is blatantly incorrect by mere definition.
You probably buy carbon offsets, am I right?
By Braves fan 202
April 1, 2007 3:40 AM | Link to this
hes not your “boy”, chill. Race isnt involved, terrance moore just made a bad post, thats all, no need to freak, let everyone worry about what they want. Anyways good point N8 that was some good research. And TM, what were you thinking? The one time DOB gives you a chance for a good blog you have NOTHING. I dont know spring training just ending. That just might be somin to talk about. Your predictions for the season, what your worried about. No, you choose the bad trade the braves made 1o years ago. Not only that, it wasnt even a bad trade. So go get a job at a high school news paper, get a fresh start.
By Jeff R
April 1, 2007 6:43 AM | Link to this
It may prove that giving up Adam Wainwright for J.D. Drew (principally) was one of the worst deals the Braves have made. Outfielders are a relatively plentiful commodity. Pitching—good pitching—well, that’s another matter.
By LivininAL
April 1, 2007 7:34 AM | Link to this
Hmmm..Wonder how many trades the Braves have made in the last 10 years. No trades no mistakes? The baseball business required decisions, without the luxuiry of mulling over them for 10 years before making them.
By mark
April 1, 2007 7:52 AM | Link to this
It might be best…that AJC end BLOGS…the race issue seens to always come up…Our country suffers from enough of that.
By Adam Price
April 1, 2007 8:02 AM | Link to this
Here’s an idea…get your facts straight. They traded Justice to sure up money to sign some guys by the name of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz? Can you really tell me Justice’s remaining career was more valuable than what those guys have done for the Braves since 1996? Dye was a bad trade, but that was a long time ago….get over it!!! Why don’t you say something positive about the only team in Atlanta that has EVER won on a consistant basis!!!!!!
By HAROLD
April 1, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this
TM, you act as if you were a slave
By Barry Bonds
April 1, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this
Terence, what are you talking about? I would have never talked to you about any trade. I hate journalists, especially poor ones like you. You should write about the time Pete Rose talked to you again. That would be a wonderful article. The worst trade in Braves history was trading away Brett Butler for a washed up pitcher in Cleveland. But Butler was white so I guess it was ok.
By robert hughes
April 1, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
Terrance,(aka Jesse Jackson), aka(Al Sharpton),
Why the AJC gives you a place to write your racist crap is amazing. Next thing you will tell us what an injustice it was to get rid of freaknik. Anyone with any baseball knowledge knows the Braves hate white guys. The worst trade was the Brett Butler and Brook Jacoby (2 white guys)for Len Barker. Butler went on to 200 hits and 100 runs/year for the next 10 years. Also stole 40 bases/year. And we traded him just because he was white and reminded the city of Gone With The Wind. 2nd worst trade was letting Ryan Klesko go. Just because he was white. More recently, the Falcons, who also hate white guys let Patrick Kerney go. Traded Matt the next Montana too (another white guy). I sound like a racist don’t I!!!!!!!
By Josh
April 1, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this
yeah….what is the point of this article. The Braves opening day is monday, and the only thing this man can come up to write is something totally irrelevant to ANYTHING? Wish I had his job, doesn’t have to write about anything important!
By RedEyedAndBlue
April 1, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
I actually agree with Mr. Moore that the Dye trade was a big mistake, and, perhaps, the worst made by the “Designated Geniuses.” (Read carefully: he did not say “in Braves history,” where bloggers would be right to suggest Barker/Butler and Jacoby.). I would suggest that the Quilvio Veras, Wally Joyner, Reggie Sanders for Bret Boone, Ryan Klesko, Jason Shiell trade was much worse for the Bravos during the “Designated Geniuses” era.
By Steve-O
April 1, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this
Attention Bloggers
Tommorow is Opening Day 2007. There is alot of hope and promise surrounding this bunch of Braves who are walking around with a quiet confident swagger. Last year was a bump in the road and they’ve fixed the wagon and are back on their journey to a championship.
This is going to be a good year, its sad an idiot like Moore feels compelled to write IRRELEVANT BS. I don’t understand how he gets a space to write this garbage and bring down all of our happy “BASEBALL IS ABOUT TO START!!!!!!” moods stirring up everybody. If nobody noticed about 90% if not MORE of these posts are nothing less than disrespect for this pathetic “journalist”. As the good man suggested Moore, go take a job at a High School newspaper and get a fresh start, or BETTER YET, go ask David O’Brien how to write a relevant solid story, I don’t know, maybe something about uhhh Opening Day 2007 maybe??? DOB wins awards for his columns you know, maybe you should ask him for some tips and while your at it get your head out of the 1800’s plantation mentality. Baseball is about making moves to improve your TEAM. As the good man N8 showed you, The RF’s who took Dye’s place were just as adequate if not better because of their durability. And again, the trade for Tucker and Lockhart payed dividends IMMEDIATELY. We all despise your pathetic work and you deserved to get fired, because your a pathetic journalist Moore, not because your black, relax.
By C-Lo
April 1, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
I seriously doubt we’d have hung onto Dye and Andruw for the “eight seasons after before” 2005 and the “one since then.” You do understand baseball economics, yeah?
Also, when the situation is “Keep Justice and lose Maddux and/or Glavine” or “Trade Justice and keep your hall of fame rotation”, only a fool keeps David Justice.
By Gene
April 1, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this
I remember when Mr. Moore complained when the “DG’s” signed Greg Maddux instead of going after Moore’s pal, Barry Bonds.
By Luther
April 1, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
I just don’t understand the scoffing “Designated Geniuses” tag. Why? The joke loses all validity when the main person your making fun of has had one of the greatest 15 year runs in baseball history, in addittion to a prior successful run in KC.
By Wayne in Utah
April 1, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this
This article reminds me why I don’t usually read TM’s work. What was the purpose of this article Mr. Moore? Are you going to write about ALL the bad trades the Braves have made in the past 20 years. Then next month are you going to write about all the good trades?
I guess we should have traded Andruw instead of Jermaine, since he isn’t really “black” huh.
Get off the racist crap or go look for another job. I have a feeling that the AJC is getting tired of your bull. But then again, there are enough people that love to be told how racist our country still is, since Jesse Jackson still gets an ocassional podium.
By N8
April 1, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
RedEyedAndBlue
While the trades you’ve mentioned may or may not have been good/bad trades. They ARE very open to debate.
By definition, in baseball terminology, a BAD trade is a trade that hinders a team from succeeding or even worse competing.
Len Barker for Brett Butler? It took us 8 years (until the 1991 run began), to overcome that trade. Butler WAS our sparkplug, and Barker was a BUST.
Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell, was a BAD trade for the Red Sox.
Doyle Alexander for Smoltz was a GREAT trade at the time for the Tigers. Alexander led them to the ALCS. But I’m guessing up until last year, most Tigers fans would’ve “sacrificed” that 87 AL East title, to have Smoltz in their rotation for the last 20 years.
NONE of the trades you mentioned, caused the Braves to have a drop off, that caused them to miss the playoffs. As many have stated, AFTER the Dye trade, the Braves proceeded to win NINE MORE division titles.
I think we did JUST FINE without Dye.
In case you’re STILL questioning my reasoning, GO BACK and read my 1:50 AM post.
I’m not trying to be a pompous jerk. But those numbers DON’T LIE.
Other than the fans being able to have 1 player “man” the RF position for the last 10 years, thus causing him to be a fan favorite, there isn’t ANY reason to be upset that Dye was traded.
Quite honestly, if Dye had remained in Atlanta, with how fickle and fairweahter, and impatient the Braves fans are, he would’ve been run out of town with his injuries WAY before his last two good seasons. Look at Chipper? That guy has done more for the Braves than Dye could’ve EVER dreamed of doing, and people are fed up with his injuries.
Dye, while seemingly a good kid, and a model citizen, has NOT BEEN MISSED on the field.
By TheSouthernJackAss
April 1, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this
Since Moore thinks the trading of Jermaine Dye a decade ago is still so relevant to today’s game—then I suppose quoting a statement made by Moore from his article entitled, “Ruth’s 714 dabbed by white out”, from a mere year ago, would be considered as fodder fresh out of the silo—Moore refers to Babe Ruth with the following, his designation as baseball’s greatest player deserves an asterisk faster than you can say “segregation.” He only played against the best competition that wasn’t darker than the ball,”
Nah, don’t see nothin’ racist there…but it does make me wonder just how great some of those revered black legends would have been had they been allowed to play against the best in baseball…
By jp
April 1, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this
Its no question that TM is racist. But I have to give it to him on this one. HE is right, we did not need Tucker or Lockhart, they never contributed anything significant. While we could have waited on Dye to develop. But who knows, Dye may never develop if he just sticks around in Atl his whole life.
By MGL
April 1, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this
I don’t understand the relevancy of whining about a trade ten years ago on the eve of opening day. But I should have considered the source and the fact that we are talking black. Farewell TM, I’ve read the last column of yours!
By don
April 1, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this
I am continually amazed at the way many of you defend Schuerholz and Cox regardless of what proof is offered. The Dye trade was stupid. Many called it that at the time. The Justice trade was ridiculous. The trade for J.D. Drew is another good example of incompetency.
Schuerholz and Cox have done well. However, they have also made many poor moves whjich should have been obvious at the time.
Simpson is a homer. Many of you are homers. Try to be objective every now and then.
By Steve-O
April 1, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
Ive read my last column of his too….
By Chris
April 1, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
It takes a lot of hubris to routinely refer to the Braves management as “designated geniuses”. Fourteen straight division titles and this guy derides Schuerholz’s intelligence. The insinuation, of course, is that Moore thinks he’s a lot brighter (I wonder how many titles we would have had he been the G.M.). Clearly, Moore has no sense of irony. And no class.
By Free the prisoners, end marijuna prohibition
April 1, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this
I take offense to what “He’s your boy wrote”. Obviously a Yankee. To generalize some of the ignorant posts on this blog and call someone a stoner is ridiculous. I don’t see the relationship between stoners and racists and as a stoner and a Southerner, I take offense to your post. Take your trash clients up North, we don’t need them in Georgia anyways.
By N8
April 1, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this
don
What about me. I’m as critical as ANYBODY on here. I didn’t, don’t and NEVER WILL have a problem with the Dye trade.
Am I a homer?
As for JP
you said:
“HE is right, we did not need Tucker or Lockhart, they never contributed anything significant.”
Did YOU TOO not read the post, where I layed ALL of the numbers out on the line for you??
Yes, I agree, Lockhart and Tucker were mere “stopgaps” until we filled their positions with considerably better players. THEY OUT PERFORMED DYE IN THE TWO YEARS FOLLOWING THE TRADE!!!!
We didn’t wait for Jason Schmidt, we didn’t wait for Odalis Perez, we didn’t wait for Jason Marquis. I don’t hear anybody complaining about that.
If letting Dye go was the second worst move in Braves history, then letting Jason Schmidt and Tom Glavine must be up there too, right??????
Oh WAIT. They’re WHITE, Moore doesn’t care about those guys.
I get it now. Never mind.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
Don,
They had to trade Justice and Grissom to free up the money necessary to resign Glavine and Maddux. That was hardly ridiculous. The Drew trade enabled the Braves to win another division title — that’s hardly incompetant. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to think things through more carefully and cool off on the name calling. It’s fine to have opinions, but you have to earn them.
By Carroll
April 1, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
The Drew trade was incompetent because you NEVER trade away young, power pitching for a one-year rental—and there was a HIGH likelihood that Drew would be a rental. One more flag on the wall in the outfield does not justify that trade!
To that end, that is probably the biggest tragedy about trading Dye. Perhaps if we had kept him all these years as a mainstay in RF, we would not have made the Drew trade, then we would still have Wainwright atop our rotation right now!
By Dan
April 1, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
T Moore, what are you talking about? Dye had one good year, You are a loser
By Summerteeth
April 1, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
This just in…Red Sox sale of Ruth to Yankees is worst in team history.
By Chris
April 1, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
Drew carried the team the year he was there. Essentially, the Braves traded Wainwright for a legitimate chance at the World Series that year. I like Wainwright an awful lot and didn’t like seeing him go, but I wouldn’t call trading a pitching prospect for that opportunity incompetant. It’s hard to predict how a young pitcher will turn out. Take Capellan, for example.
The Dye trade was a bad one. But it’s highly dubious that with the payroll restrictions that the Braves have, they would have been able to afford Dye in RF in 2004.
By the way, there’s no use getting all gaga over Wainwright until he has some big seasons. He may end up going the way of Bruce Chen, Odalis Perez, Jason Marquis, or that Myers kid they traded to Oakland.
By Kennesaw
April 1, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this
Terence,
You have the best 20-20 hindsight vision of any reporter I have ever seen.
The Justice trade was what enabled the Braves to keep both Maddux and Glavine as long as they did. Idiot.
I wish you were in New York now and if anyone is a so called Braves’ Designated Genius it would be you. And since it only took you 10 years to discover the scoop on Dye and present it to us, well, it proves my point.
Maybe you should copy Barry on this article so he will grant you an interview when he breaks Aaron’s record. And then depending on how you are treated, you will have the option to make or break him with another steroid expose.
It’s not that the Braves did not want Dye (they drafted and developed him you IDIOT). They just tried to make a better long term deal. And making better long term deals than other NL east teams is exactly why we won 14 consecutive pennants instead of one or two-IDIOT.
The Braves front office seems to be right as often as you are wrong.
Chose another sport or write for the Macon Telegraph!
T
By Dave Winfield
April 1, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this
There’s only one Dave Winfield, and his name is not Jermaine Dye. It’s Dave Winfield. And Barry Bonds doesn’t even know Dave Winfield. Dave Winfield doesn’t want to be associated with Barry Bonds. The Designated Geniuses at the AJC should trade Terrence Moore for Stephen A. Smith.
By Johnnie
April 1, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Thanks Terence for exposing all the “Real Racist in ATL!”
I nave notice that whenever TM writes they all put their sheets on an attack him. I wonder why?
By RUSUREURNTRETARDED
April 1, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
DUDE YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY THE DUMBEST WRITER IVE EVER ENCOUNTERED. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT WAITING ALMOST 8 YEARS FOR DYE TO MATURE WAS WHAT THE BRAVES NEEDED? GOD HOW ABOUT YOU GO WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT ALL OF THE TRADES THAT BRAVES EVER MADE B/C THE OTHER GUY HAD A REALLY GOOD SEASON OR BETTER YET A REALLY GOOD GAME. “DANG ONLY IF BRAVES DIDN’T TRADE WE COULD’VE ENJOYED ’S CAREER GAME?
AND YOU ARE QUOTING BARRY BONDS (THE POST STEROID BOND)? YEAH THAT’S VERY CREDIBLE?
By MiaBchBravesFan
April 1, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
On a whim, I selected to read T. Moore’s column today, which I usually never do.
After another pathetic attempt at a weak assertion passing for a article that has all the relevance of an ant dying in the Himalayas 50 years ago, Moore truly believes that his pablum passes for fresh, cutting edge journalism.
His article is appropriate on this April Fool’s day. Frankly, I am the blithering fool for having read an article that does nothing but cheapen and diminish sports’ journalism in the region.
Sadly, not everyone is worthy of using a keyboard for informing and enlightening.
Read his column?
Never again.
By Spider29
April 1, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this
Stop the racist talk. Mr. Moore is entitled to his opinions and gets paid to write them. I didn’t like the trade of Dye either but for as many others have said, it’s time to get over it. Trades like this have happened forever in sports. I don’t really see how we can complain too much at the results the Braves have had for the last ten years in Atlanta. Dye has had a few good years and more average ones. He seems like a good guy. But I just don’t think his loss back then warrants an article or blog now. The new season begins tomorrow…let’s focus on that ! Go Braves!
By Me
April 1, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
The Boston Red Sox didn’t trade Babe Ruth. They sold his contract which is probably even worse.
By ezm
April 1, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this
I like Terence Moore, I have read his stuff for the last 18 years. I STILL do not understand why his views get people SO UPSET..thats his job and his opinion. The key to TM is this he writes about THINGS HE KNOWS AND PEOPLE HE LIKES. TMs work follows a pattern, things he likes, ND Football, growing up in the midwest, working in the SF Bay area, etc. People he likes, Hank Aaron, Dave Justice, old school ballplayers. Things he knows, racial issues in sports, his experiences in the midwest, bay area, Atlanta etc. Frankly I dont see the need to write a piece about a ballplayer traded 10 YEARS ago, but thats TM. If memory serves me right, didnt the Braves have Dave Justice hurt that year, Jermaine Dye was a 4th outfielder, Andruw Jones was supposed to be the next Ken Griffey Jr, HE HAD TO PLAY and he was in the system ready to come up. Also since the Braves hang their hat on pitching, wasnt money needed to re up Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, I may be wrong but thats what I remember about that time. Jermaine Dye is a good player but wasnt he traded by the Royals, released by Oakland before he came to the Chi Sox. again..I like Terence but he tends to engage sometimes to revise history to suit his arguments…his pieces about Charlie Ward, Steve Mc Nair and Tony Dungy come to mind..just one mans view here…
By milt
April 1, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
2nd worst trade? 1st worst trade? Please.. for those who have been around awhile, I still rank the Dusty Baker trade for Jerry Royster and 4 other no-names as the second and the Butler/ Barker trade as worst. Racist? well gee I don’t really care, but I do notice that Moore’s columns are 95% Moore negative about Braves Mgmnt. than positive. He should have been in Atlanta in the 70’s. Of course it is more fun to pick out the succesful’s supposed mistakes than to point out the failures’ poptential promise. Mr. Moore, what about Coach Woodson? I like him but should he go?
By Ben
April 1, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this
You know what I love about Moore? Mark Bradley actually reads and responds to some of the comments on his page. Moore knows he’s a piece of crap racist who can’t write about anything but how stupid the Braves are to trade any black player, and what geniuses they are to trade white ones.
By Paul
April 1, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this
This is just TM playing his race card again. Otherwise he doesnt have a job. This is not in the top 10 bad trades all time for the braves but i know what the #1 All Time Bad Hire by the AJC is. Wanna guess?
Terrance, dont you know the Braves dont like black players? Geez.
By Sir Stealth
April 1, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this
I don’t think you could possibly make a less valuable statement than this article. The AJC should replace its sports columnists with monkeys on typewriters. How long must the sports fans of Atlanta suffer?
By Larry A
April 1, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this
I seem to recall another outfielder in that era named Ron Gant who was a motor cycle accident away for being a superstar. Dye was projected to be a good hitter, his defense was decent. Gant was projected to be a consistent 30/30 guy. Gant was good until he made a mental error and wrecked his legs.
Don’t get me wrong, I have long considered the Dye trade to be one of the lesser quality trades made by the braves. But after a while, teams don’t want to trade with teams that are consistent winners.
The fact is, the Braves had to make choices and sometimes you choose wrong. In that era, the Braves had a plethora of really talented outfielders.
By matt
April 1, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this
I’d be willing to bet that you could look at any team in baseball and find “bad” trades. Nobody’s perfect. And I really don’t think that was that bad of a trade
By DNice
April 1, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this
I dont recall color being mentioned by TM so why all the racist comments. I guess if he writes an article about the 200 hitter from last year (Orr), then he is a racist but if he gives praise to Sheffield for his regular seasons in Atlanta (notice I said reg and not playoffs)then he is a racist. Is the Dye issue old (Certainly), but it was valid and I said it myself back then. All Tcker could do was say how fast he was but it never equated to SB’s. To say the trade was because Justice was injured and AJ had to play then why trade and receive Tucker (another OF). Worst trade we all know will always being the Len Barker trade and bringing the malcontent Lofton here was next. The Murphy trade was not much since he was on his last leg but we can go back and look at Jason Schmidt for Denny prostitute Neagle (LOL). He was a power picture to go along with Smoltz and we certainly did not get better or save money. Luckily more rights have been made than wrongs but 1 WS leaves more to me accomplished.
By Joey
April 1, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this
The worst move the Braves made was trading Bret Butler. Add to that trading Brook Jackoby. Both were great for the Dodgers and Indians respectfully. Letting Vinnie Castilia get taken in the rule 5 by Colorado was a huge mistake. But for every bad trade there is a Smoltz, McGriff, and Maddux. Dye is really good, yes. But anyone thinks he would match what Sheffeild, Drew, or even Francoeur did and will do? Lets call a spade a spade. You only care about the black players. It is not about winning with you. If you can leave Butler and Jackoby out of this conversation, than you are as racist as you are stupid.
By Joey
April 1, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this
Sir Stealth. You made a suggestion to the AJC that they have already implemented. Who do you think wrote this pathetic piece of crap???
By Scott
April 1, 2007 6:38 PM | Link to this
Last time I checked Michael Tucker is black so why would Dye being traded for Tucker, another black guy, make Bobby Cox a racist?
Also didnt the Braves trade for Gary Sheffield who was also black?
Didnt the Braves hire the first black GM? So stop with the Braves are racist crap. And Dave Justice wasnt that good. He never had that great seasons. He just happen to be on good Atlanta, Cleveland, and New York teams.
By CK
April 1, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this
Everyone who is from the city and reads the AJC/Sports every day knows this is Terence just being Terence. Most people talk in the negative, that is just what he does. Sure - Dye would have been a great staple for the team, but without him, they did OK and they will do OK this year as well.
By LivininAL
April 1, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this
New Season! New Bull Pen! New Attitude!… Now lets find something to harp about 10 years old?…Wow! would someone ask the writer to throw out the opening game day first pitch! Get in the 2000’s.
By rr
April 1, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this
F@@f Moore, the stupid, dumb dark black skin n word!!!!!!!!!!!
By GregH
April 1, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this
Terrence, I read with interest your piece, “Jackie Robinson’s cause stalls”. I’ve From an African American point of view, I thought the article quiet telling. The cause of the precipitous drop in A/A’s in baseball? - probably many - but the number are what they are. The one thing, however, that I did not get from the article was a racist animus. Why, then do so many others who reply here see that differently? Maybe it depends, in part, from where the reader is standing.
I find it funny these days how many people invoke the word “racism” to avoid the truth when they’d rather not hear it. Racial relations have come a long way in this great country of ours and still, they have so far to go.
By Marc Schneider
April 1, 2007 8:10 PM | Link to this
Moore’s column was silly but the right-wing racists on this blog make him look like Edward R. Murrow.
By chill
April 1, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this
Seems to me the biggest racist on this page is Terrance Moore. Every article he writes about involves race. Also if you read his other column about Jackie Robinson, you’d easily see the hypocrisy surrounding today’s race relations. If Joe Morgan(racist) is so concerned about a race being underrepresented in sports, why doesn’t he bemoan the lack of whites in the NBA? Is it so impossible to believe that blacks may not be the best at ALL sports? Go on Terrance keep on spouting your racist crap, I won’t be paying attention.
By leroy
April 1, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this
BOBBY COX S NIGGAS!!!!!!!!!!! HE IS A RACISTS HONKEY!!!!!!!!!!
By BnB
April 1, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this
I think Terrence is correct about the Dye trade being a poor one. It made no sense to me at the time and less now. He was young, talented and cheap. The Butler/Barker trade was way worse and what did we get for Joe Torre back in the day? The Wainright trade is also arguably worse. Regardless, we should have kept Dye. And though Moore does continually and tiredly have racial themes to many of his articles where did some of the above posters get that on this one?