AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2006 > September > 12 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USLots of reasons why it ended for Braves
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Mark Bradley
When you finish first 14 times over 14 completed seasons, you assume every year is your year. For the imperial Braves, this one finally wasn’t. The Mets made it official Tuesday night, winning in Florida to eliminate the Braves from the NL East race. In that break-the-mold spirit, we offer a tutorial.
It’s not your year when:
• Only three members of your seven-man Opening Day bullpen are on the active roster in September — and all three have been pressed into service as starters.
• Franchise linchpin Chipper Jones, having yet to find a position afield where he can’t hurt himself, keeps hurting himself while batting • You trade Wilson Betemit, the linchpin’s dependable backup, on the night the linchpin hurts himself yet again.
•Willy Aybar, one of the players you receive for the linchpin’s dependable backup, breaks his hand in his Atlanta debut while trying (and failing) to steal second base with two out in the ninth and his new team four runs behind.
• Danys Baez, the other player you receive for the linchpin’s dependable backup, goes on the disabled list with appendicitis.
• The Florida Marlins, with a team payroll roughly equal to what Mike Hampton is earning for not pitching, are ahead of you in the standings.
• Adam LaRoche has a breakout season but will be remembered mostly for not hustling to first base on Nick Johnson’s grounder on Mother’s Day and for bunting on his own — into a ninth-inning double play, no less — against the Marlins.
• You fall seven games behind wild-card-leading Cincinnati, which promptly collapses, and then you fall seven games behind new leader San Diego.
• Horacio Ramirez gets hurt four different ways.
• John Smoltz, your best starting pitcher, halts a four-game winning streak, a two-game winning streak and a three-game winning streak — all since Aug. 31.
• You’re swept in a September doubleheader by two Mets’ starting pitchers who were in Class AAA in August.
• Jorge Sosa goes from 13 wins to 10 losses faster than you can say, “We let Leo Mazzone leave without a counteroffer?”
• Andruw Jones, the near-MVP of last season, makes his biggest noise of 2006 by squawking about being put on waivers.
• You don’t find your closer until July 20.
• Your imported closer blows only one save for his new team, but the one misfire costs you the chance to sweep a doubleheader in Philadelphia over Labor Day weekend.
• You choose to use a 38-year-old starting pitcher on three days’ rest to keep from falling 10 games behind — on May 7.
• Your manager, who’s renowned for backing his players come what may, is moved to say of LaRoche and his aforementioned bunt: “I don’t know what the [heck] he’s doing.”
• Dayton Moore, your director of baseball operations, leaves for Kansas City and you proceed to lose 20 of your next 23 games.
• The franchise linchpin’s dependable backup reports to his new team and helps it win 15 of its next 16 games.
• You employ more full-time announcers than bona fide pitchers.
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By ATL Fan
September 12, 2006 08:38 PM | Link to this
Pure comedic genius!!!
By dexterzabaleta
September 12, 2006 08:41 PM | Link to this
you are right,a lot of reasons combined for this disastrous season for BRAVES,no choice:wait the next year.SMOLTZ is one of the few “good things”this season in the team,he should be back in 2007.Good luck braves fans. P.S:I am writing from VENEZUELA,so excuse my grammar mistakes,the SPANISH is my main language.Thanks for the oportunity
By TheSouthernJackAss
September 12, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this
ol’ Mark Bradley sure paints a purdy picture don’t he??…Kinda reads like an instruction manual for stupidity!!!…
By Larry
September 12, 2006 09:22 PM | Link to this
Oh please! Stop making excuses for the worst managerial performance in years. This year simply proves what I’ve been saying for years. Our GM, scouting and player development has handed Cox incredible talent for 15 straight years and he could only get a championship because of a one-hitter by Tom Glavine in 1995. Look what he’s accomplished with a team being paid 90 million dollars this year! 90 MILLION—9th in the league!
Bobby Cox is nothing but a cheerleader who cheers for his talented team for 162 games but is completely at a lost in the postseason without a shutout pitching performance and a three run homer.
Want to see a real management job? Check out what Leyland has done for the Tigers or the 15 million dollar Marlins. Now THAT’S managing and getting the best out of what you have.
By journalist jimmy smith
September 12, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this
you go larry, oh by the way tell moe and curly that journalist jimmy said hello, big fan of esteemed 3 stooges.
By Roger
September 12, 2006 09:35 PM | Link to this
To say we were not due for a season where everything goes wrong is the biggest understatement one could say.
By The Man
September 12, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this
I stand corrected:
Journalist Jimmy Smith is The Man. Larry likes men. Especially ones touching their toes.
By Roger
September 12, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this
To say we were not due for a season where everything goes wrong is the biggest understatement one could say.
By Thomas
September 12, 2006 09:37 PM | Link to this
Why are you so pesimist, why can you look at things in an other possitive way, Think it this way:
Adam Laroche put it together Batting 296 30HR 96RBI.
Brian McCann responded to te faith put on him and has have a great year 329 19HR 75RBI
Chipper played 100games hit over 300 over 20HR and around 60-80RBI
Tim Hudson has corrected himself and has gained the experience that will take through this bad streak, and will start next season with his A game.
Andruw another gold glove hit over 30HR and 100RBI’s
John Smoltz had a very good year his just tired after throwing 200innings plus and being 39.
Chuck James has been awesome, his young southpaw, good changeup which mixes up with a 92mph fastball, the next Tom Glavine 9-3 3.57ERA
Edgar Renteria has been hitting around 300 all year, and has only made 11 errors.
Villareal and Cormier have improved a lot since the season atarted, and they can start if nesceserry.
Wickman only one blown save, and they have a bunch of good arms in that bulpen, including four setupmans Mccay Mcbride. Chad Parronto, Tyler Yates, and Danny Baez.
Giles has been great in the second half, and gained trade value if the braves choose to trade him.
By Thomas
September 12, 2006 09:42 PM | Link to this
By Thomas
September 12, 2006 09:46 PM | Link to this
By conyers
September 12, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this
You really say the dumbest things… Let Leo Mazzone go without a counteroffer??? As if Mazzone was the answer to the Orioles pitching problems. Have you checked out the Orioles staff ERA lately? You and your pronouncements.
By wendell
September 12, 2006 10:54 PM | Link to this
Who cares?! Better it end now than in the playoffs like they always do!!
By josh
September 12, 2006 11:30 PM | Link to this
Larry, you don’t become the seventh all-time winningest manager in baseball history by simply being a “cheerleader”. By the way, wasn’t Bobby Cox the general manager when Glavine, Avery, Justice, Gant, Blauser, Lemke, Javy, and Klesko were drafted and Smoltz was traded for? Also, how is it Cox’s fault that: -Lonnie Smith forgot how to run the bases. -Bream hit into a double play. -Jeff Reardon, Mark Wohlers, and Kyle Farnsworth (all closers) couldn’t close out games. -Eric Gregg’s strike zone was the size of a Buick. -and that Gary Sheffield choked in the playoffs?
By the way, if you take away the 6-21 June the Braves would be 63-53 and leading the wild-card despite all of the injuries. Bobby and the team didn’t have a bad season as much as a bad month. If you’re going to criticize someone be sure that you review all of the facts.
By Tony
September 13, 2006 12:15 AM | Link to this
superb article….100% true
By Michael
September 13, 2006 12:18 AM | Link to this
For the complaining I saw about the $90 million payroll:
Mike Hampton is making about $15 million of that. He hasn’t pitched a day. Chipper Jones is also making about $12-15 million of that. He’s been hurt a bunch.
The Braves have lost almost 30 games and blown almost 30 saves. It’s karma collecting the bill. I would also point out that if the Braves had gone 5-5 instead of 0-10 during the losing streak, they would be about 1/2 game out of the wild card right now.
Oh yes, I almost forgot: anybody that complains about the manager being at fault after he just won 14 division titles in a row is a lunatic. If it was luck, it would’ve happened before. Not even the $200 million Yankees have been that lucky.
By anyonebutatlanta
September 13, 2006 12:33 AM | Link to this
been living in atlanta 10 years now braves fans are pathetic and never ever deserved any divisions since the Leyritz home run. Even the Marlins are more impressive as an organization. AL is so far superior. Hate to say it but this year rooting for the Mets to get the NL some pride. they are a young scrappy agressive team and if their pitchers stay healthy - they might do what the Braves and the pathetic NL east have not done in 10 years—————————- actually WIN A WORLD SERIES…………….
By anyonebutatlanta
September 13, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this
been living in atlanta 10 years now braves fans are pathetic and never ever deserved any divisions since the Leyritz home run. Even the Marlins are more impressive as an organization. AL is so far superior. Hate to say it but this year rooting for the Mets to get the NL some pride. they are a young scrappy agressive team and if their pitchers stay healthy - they might do what the Braves and the pathetic NL east have not done in 10 years—————————- actually WIN A WORLD SERIES…………….
By onlyatlanta
September 13, 2006 12:56 AM | Link to this
sorry anyonebutatlanta, but the pathetic NL east has produced two World Series champs in the last ten years. The Marlins won in 1997 and 2003. I agree that Braves fans are not the most intense bunch in the world, but many of the people living in Atlanta are like you: moved to Georgia from somewhere else and bring their alliances and opinions about “how great it is where I come from” with them. Still, your facts and your vitriole do not jibe, and no one would miss your vitriole if you ever decide to take it back to where you come from.
By garednek
September 13, 2006 01:48 AM | Link to this
I have been a braves fan for 22 yrs and braves fans are pathetic. Early 90’s are the only time this state has gotten excited about baseball.It may sound sad but I envy the cubs….always lose but theirs fans back them 100%. As far as management goes great job John and Bobby.Leo wasn’t the fix all for pitching though he was way underpaid as a brave.Mike Hampton was a steal(you can’t predict injuries),Tom Glavine left for what 2 or 3 mil. more,how many millions is enough, what happened to loyalty.Tim Hudson was a great pickup,he had one of the highest winning percentage in baseball.Jorge Sosa was a fluke but didn’t hear anyone complaining last yr.Smoltz would be a cy young contender if not for the blown saves.Kyle Davies is overanxious but remember Smoltz when he first came up?Chuck James could be a future cy winner,Laroche had a breakout yr,Andrew will be 30/100,Mcann is the best catcher since Benidict,Renteria has been outstanding.As far as chipper goes,wasn’t that long ago people cheered for Murphy when he had a 20 homer/80-100 rbi yr,give the guy a break,he took a salary cut so the braves could sign some better players.How often do you see that in this day and age?Honestly the only thing I can fault the brave for is trading Betimet.All that’s left to say is I LOVE YA BRAVES AND CONGRATS ON 14 YRS OF FINISHING FIRST sorry most of your so called fans got spoiled and don’t appreciate what you have accomplished.
By saltlakedawg
September 13, 2006 02:14 AM | Link to this
Hey Larry, remember 1991 and 1992 when Bobby Cox and the Braves handed JIM LEYLAND and the Pittsbugh Pirates back to back NLCS loses? Now that’s managing.
By bryanstone
September 13, 2006 02:26 AM | Link to this
All MLB teams go through bad seasons,… I’m not going to respond to anybody,… not the reasonable or the lunatic fringe,… this is a very depressing, yet inevitable day,… like those losers from the Northside always say:
Wait til’ next year!
yeah,… it’s got a ring to it!
By Head Coach
September 13, 2006 04:01 AM | Link to this
The Bad news Braves , Has a certain ring to it , doesnt it ? Hey , this should have happened last season and I can appreciate Mark Bradley’s sense of humor.
By Mark
September 13, 2006 05:42 AM | Link to this
So many whiners! I bet some of you have your mom hold your hand to go to the bathroom. Sometimes folks things just go bad.We all point fingers too often.The team has gotten somewhat old in so,e ways and is way young in another.It boils down to pitching.We didn’t have it.Poor ole Bobby couldnt throw the balls for them.I do agree questionable trade , but win some those deal and sometimes those deals dont work.Braves biggest thing is they dont have owner who loves them.
By jerry
September 13, 2006 06:01 AM | Link to this
Michael, the fact that it has never happened before probably means that there was some luck involved. If it were not luck, the Yankees would have done it if anybody did. Let’s face it-the Braves are only a shadow of the Yankees. Actually, according to Forbes, they are a subsiduary of the Yankees.
By metsfanforlife
September 13, 2006 06:14 AM | Link to this
Congratulations to my New York Mets!!!
By Red Foreman
September 13, 2006 06:58 AM | Link to this
MARK…WHAT SPORTS DID YOU EXCEL AT???
THE SCIENCE CLUB IS NOT A SPORT, NEITHER IS THE YEARBOOK.
DO YOU AND TERENCE MAKE THIS CRAP UP AT NIGHT AFTER HE MAKES SWEET LOVE TO YOU???
DO YOU SUCK DICKS???
10 BUCKS SAYS YOU WILL HOLD ONE IN YOUR MOUTH TILL THE SWELLING GOES DOWN…
By Ted Turner
September 13, 2006 07:08 AM | Link to this
You can’t win ‘em all people.
By the way Thomas, you are a pr#%K!
By Ron
September 13, 2006 07:16 AM | Link to this
MetsFanForLife,
Congrats…Mets clearly the better team this year. I finally know what it feels like being a Mets fan the past 14 yrs….unless you jumped on their bandwagon this year…Still don’t think they are gonna win WS, or even the NLCS for that matter…good lineup, mediocre pitching.
By Reese
September 13, 2006 07:52 AM | Link to this
I think you forgot the most important reason we lost You are owned by cheap A$$ TIME WARNER!!!
By H2F
September 13, 2006 07:54 AM | Link to this
Everything Mark writes is true. Mazzone’s Orioles didn’t look good this year, but neither did his Braves in 1990.
The main issue for the Braves’ hitters this year is that they never seemed to learn from mistakes. They seemed to understand early in the year when they waited Dontrelle Willis out down in Florida, but we never saw them do anything similar again. I don’t know how many times they swung with a 3-0 count and popped the ball up on the infield.
Four of the regular starting lineup were strikeout prone - Giles, Andruw Jones, LaRoche, and Francoeur. Chipper Jones seemed to be disinterested in the first half of the season. No one on the team seemed to ever steal a base.
The closer situation cannot be totally blamed on Reitsma’s early season failure. Dan Kolb worked very similar last year, but at least the pen had a lead for him in the 9th.
By ATLER
September 13, 2006 07:55 AM | Link to this
This team has no soul. They just sit back and wait for someone on the ballclub to take the leader role. The Braves need leaders. The Braves need a soul.
By Gene
September 13, 2006 08:05 AM | Link to this
Please delete the above filth and ban that jackass from posting on this site.
By mesmo
September 13, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
Has anyone else noticed that our highly prized young catcher can’t throw out baserunners stealing second? When the good teams come to town it looks like the olympics out there. Maybe his bad ankle is to blame. Shades of Mike Piazza (the elder) out there.
In the off season the big questions will be what to do with the ageing super stars named Jones. One can’t stay well, still good when he is pain free but rarely in that state; the other is again a .250 hitter with tons of strikeouts and stranded runners. They say he has a bad back. Why not sit him down for the rest of the month and give the cleanup spot to someone who is well?
Perhaps the individual in the Florida Marlins organization who is in charge of downsizing would be a good hire. A $15M payroll and young talent everywhere you look (from someone elses’ farm system). They seem to be able to do this every few years. World Series in 2007? Don’t be surprised. Mesmo
By NYMETS
September 13, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this
HAHHAHAHA you hill billy f***.. your gonna end out the season being 20 games behind the mets this year…your team and manager suck . you will be a baad team for years to come.No way are you going to be better then the philly’s or marlins and certainly not the mets….so enjoy not going to the playoffs for a long, long time. Have fun, As i will be laughing my a* off watching you suffer.
By Matt Yoder
September 13, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this
Hey NYMETS….Your beloved Mets can’t even claim to be the best in their own city !!!
By MARK
September 13, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this
I am glad this day finally arrived. Hell, let someone else win for a change. Maybe the Mets can do something with it. We waste most of our opportunities when we did win the division. Let’s all just concentrate on football and see if the Falcons are going to choke.
By matt
September 13, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
Coulda, shoulda, woulda!!! Face it people, everything that possibly could’ve gone wrong went wrong for them. From trades, to injuries, to mental mistakes, they all came back to bite them in the butt! A lot of winning is the LITTLE THINGS. Getting a bunt down, or better yet swinging away and getting the job done, finding a way to go 5-5 and not 0-10. If that stat is true that is just sad! HUSTLE never slumps. I’m not blaming the season on LaRoch by any means. Maybe next year will be better but right now we are in the present, and presently the Braves will not make the playoffs because they have not been able to do the LITTLE THINGS and they have not played smart baseball from JS to Aybar with any consistency this season, and it shows. Everybody just enjoy football season and take a break, it’s going to be a long off-season.
By J Garcia
September 13, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this
Hey Braves: Thanks for not putting us through another 1st round playoff exit this year. 1 Title in 14 seasons is PITIFUL!
By Ron
September 13, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this
hey garcia,
what’s your team? how many titles do they have in the past 14 years? List of titles in past 14 years:
1991 Minnesota Twins 1992 Toronto Blue Jays 1993 Toronto Blue Jays 1994 No World Series, player’s strike 1995 Atlanta Braves 1996 New York Yankees 1997 Florida Marlins 1998 New York Yankees 4 1999 New York Yankees 2000 New York Yankees 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks 2002 Anaheim Angels 2003 Florida Marlins 2004 Boston Red Sox 4 2005 Chicago White Sox
9 different Teams have won the Title in the past 14 years…only 3 have won it more than once…
and no one has won 14 division titles…
NOT TOO SHABBY IF YOU ASK ME…
By jd
September 13, 2006 09:37 AM | Link to this
For all that went wrong, look what Brian McCann did this year. He could be the best catcher in baseball right now.
By ugapip
September 13, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this
Go Dawgs!
By ugapip
September 13, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this
Go Dawgs!
By mo
September 13, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this
Well, I have put up a glass to the 14 season win streak. I don’t care what people say about the World Series, to win your division 14 straight times in any sport is an awesome feat.
I also toast Bobby Cox, because contrary to some people’s opinion, the Braves has not had great talent since Time Warner started paying the bills, but Bobby kept winning what he could with them. That’s coaching!
Think about it: On paper, the Mets should have won the division years ago. Or even the Phillies! As a matter of fact, it made absolutely no sense that the Braves won the division last year. We had no talent to speak of. We had simultaneously the oldest and youngest players in the league playing at critical moments in games, and we were winning with unknowns at the time.
In short, our talent sucked for the last few years, but we kept on winning. That, my friends, is why Bobby Cox is a real walking, talking legend who should have a statue out front of Turner Field.
And for all of those who say that Bobby Cox sucks, google search a little more about the game of baseball and you will learn why, because you are definitely not watching the games.
By Bud
September 13, 2006 10:12 AM | Link to this
All good things come to an end…just be thankful for the Braves winning 14 division titles in a row and a Word Series back in ‘95.
Besides, now it’ll be a lot easier to get tickets to the games next season.
Bobby Cox is a class act and he and Shurholtz will put together a better team next year.
By Ouch
September 13, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this
Matt Yoder:
Mets 89-55 .618 Yankees 87-56 .608
By BirdDawg
September 13, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this
Mike & Mike put it right this morning. You are measured by your CHAMPIONSHIPS, not by how many times you won a division.
The Braves have proven themselves to be, over the last 14 years, the all-time biggest chokers in the history of sports. And the three straight years of 1996 - 1998 are the worst (or best) examples of this.
Win 2 games in the Bronx and can’t close it out because Bobby Cox yet again makes mind boggling decesions which put his team in terrible situations.
Lose to the Marlins in 1997 because a bunch of professional athletes and their overrated manager refuse to adjust to an admitadly wide strike zone. Guess what, it was wide, but guess what, the Marlins adjusted, so why didn’t we?
Win a club record 106 wins in 1998 and lose the freaking Padres in the NLCS!
Not to mention this team should have won in 1991, and had no business losing to the Phillies in 1993, should have beaten the Astros in 2004, losing to the Cardinals, Giants, and Cubs in the first round in 2000, 2002, and 2003.
This team is able to role through the regular season, but when October comes around, this team always performed like their vastly overrated manager and choked it all away.
They say a team takes the attitude and temperment of their manager. And if we are to believe that, then what does that say about Bobby the Boob and his team of October Chokers?
This team should have won at least four World Series during this run. 1991, 1995, 1996, and 1997.
And I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again.
The playoffs didn’t become a “crapshoot” until Bobby the Boob and his Chokers started losing postseason series they had no business losing. This false idea of the playoffs being a “crapshoot” is an invention of the Atlanta media and fans to once again make excuses for Bobby the Boob and his Chokers.
Wake up to reality, Braves fans. Lose your blinders. Stop being Bobby the Boob Apologists and actually look at the last 14 years with an objective eye.
It was a good, but disapointing run. It was not great. Greatness is only defined by Championships.
And here’s another thing. The Yankees are about to win their 9th or 10th straight division title.
And when they pass the Braves, and they will because they have plenty of money to do so, what will you Bobby the Boob Aplogists say then? Because during that time, the Yankees will have won at the very least 4 titles.
You only need to look at the sea of blue at Turner Field, the sickening lack of playoffs sellouts, and the Cubs home away from homefield advantage in 2003 to show what the people in Atlanta think about this team’s “acomplishment.”
Maybe, if this team hadn’t have choked so much and so often in October, their fans might actually still give a damn.
But people don’t like teases. They don’t like almost getting their. Almost winning it all.
By Ron
September 13, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
There’s a big difference between the yanks and braves, my friend…namely $$$$…everyone will know that for decades to come…
The beauty about the braves streak is that they’re not a major market team, like the yanks. this year, braves payroll was 2.5 TIMES LESS than the yanks…on top of that, they have used more rookies in the past 4 years than anyone in baseball(i’m not 100% positive about that fact)
BTW, yanks wont win 14…although i’m sick of the bosox, they will knock of the yanks in the next 1-2 yrs, ESPECIALLY after this season’s collapse…
i applaud the braves (and their 14 dt and 1 wc) and will continue to root root root for the home team.
By Faz
September 13, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this
Why are there so many whiners out there? We can’t win it every year. We are still not out of it this year, quit being fairweather fans! Go Braves Go.
By Nick
September 13, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this
First of all, Larry, you’re an idiot. But, as for you, Mark, this season can be summed up much more simply (and correctly) by taking a look at the disabled list throughout the season.
I said a few weeks ago that the 2006 Braves could be the first team to go from first to worst to first. Now, it doesn’t appear that the Braves will actually fall to last place in the division. However, they can rebound from this year given a healthy roster next year. And, I don’t think they need to make wholesale changes to do that nor will they have to substantially increase their payroll.
The starting rotation can include any combination of Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez, James and Davies. (I’m assuming that Thomson will not be resigned which will save some money). And, the core everyday players will almost certainly include Chipper, Andruw, Renteria, McCann, Francouer and LaRoche. (I’m expecting Giles to be traded or signed away allowing Aybar, Pena or Orr to play second and bat leadoff). That leaves only leftfield and the bullpen … the Braves perennial question mark … up in the air. And, after this year, I’m hopeful that Schuerholz finally got the wakeup call for the bullpen. Perhaps, we’ll see both Wickman and Baez back along with healthy versions of Reitsma, Boyer, McBride, Devine, etc.
It could happen. But, even if it doesn’t, its been a great run.
By BirdDawg
September 13, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this
Ron, you are a complete idiot.
Atlanta is not a major market?
Since when, you Apologist?
Come on Ron, make some more excuses, okay?
Back in the day, the Braves were always in the top 3 in payroll. In fact, until 1998, when Steinbrener started to spend all that money, the Braves many years during the early part of the streak had a higher payroll than the Yankees.
So come up with some more excuses. Braves Apologists are always good for two things. Not showing up to the park and supporting their team is one of them. The other is to invent all kinds of excuses to cover for the vast failing of the team and their overrated manager.
First they invented the saying that the playoffs are a crapshoot.
And now this guy Ron actually wants to say that Atlanta is not a big market?
Seriously, man, how can you get out of bed in the morning? I’ve heard some ridiculous whoppers and some inane excuses in my time (I am a parent), but Ron, I think you’ve just come up with something so stupid, that when my son was 5, he would have known better not to use it.
Ron, just to let you know, Atlanta is a BIG market. Just because their fans got bored with the c@ck tease that is the Braves every year and don’t fill the park doesn’t make them a small or mid market team.
Wow. Just wow.
By Ron
September 13, 2006 10:57 AM | Link to this
listen here, mr negative,
atlanta is national, but not a major market. sure, they had a higher payroll back in the 90s, but dood, that was OVER 6 years ago…since then, atlanta has been near the bottom of the top 10 (and in a few cases, outside the top 10) in payroll for a while now…
i’m not making excuses BD…i’m just saying that i appreciate what they’ve done…it’s been an unprecedented (and unmatched) streak that won’t be broken for a long time (i won’t say never bc record are meant to be broken). the glass is half full, my friend, not empty, like you’re making it out to be
btw, i wonder how many times you were out there, choppin’ and rooting when the “blue shirts” were in town…
By Ron
September 13, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this
listen here, mr negative,
atlanta is national, but not a major market. sure, they had a higher payroll back in the 90s, but dood, that was OVER 6 years ago…since then, atlanta has been near the bottom of the top 10 (and in a few cases, outside the top 10) in payroll for a while now…
i’m not making excuses BD…i’m just saying that i appreciate what they’ve done…it’s been an unprecedented (and unmatched) streak that won’t be broken for a long time (i won’t say never bc record are meant to be broken). the glass is half full, my friend, not empty, like you’re making it out to be
btw, i wonder how many times you were out there, choppin’ and rooting when the “blue shirts” were in town…
By Edd Anderson
September 13, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this
I remember from 1966-1989 and I just hoped we could one day be competitive and not be every teams whipping boy. Now for 14 years or so we were the envy of the league. Other teams built teams just to beat the Braves. The Mets tried several times and ended in last place. There are 28 other cities with teams that would love to have the great problem of winning only 14 straight titles and one World Series. Quit all your crying. Jump off the band wagon as you jumped on, quickly !! The true Atlanta fans want their seats back at the Stadium anyway ! How about an Amen on that .
By Edd Anderson
September 13, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this
I remember from 1966-1989 and I just hoped we could one day be competitive and not be every teams whipping boy. Now for 14 years or so we were the envy of the league. Other teams built teams just to beat the Braves. The Mets tried several times and ended in last place. There are 28 other cities with a team that would love to have the great problem of winning only 14 straight titles and one World Series. Quit all your crying. Jump off the band wagon as you jumped on, quickly !! The true Atlanta fans want their seats back at the Stadium anyway ! How about an Amen on that .
By BobbyD
September 13, 2006 11:30 AM | Link to this
One thing you left out, Mark…you spend only 82 million and the Yankees double that and then some. Just imagine where the Braves would be now if JS had that kind of change. Hey, the Braves are still good and there’s always next year. That will be the true test of JS’s abilities.
By Dave from Chattanooga
September 13, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this
So long dynasty …
By TG
September 13, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
Excuses, excuses, excuses
Classic “Bravesthink” here - it couldn’t possibly be the Mets had the better team this year, it must be injuries and everything else. Face it, you got out GM’ed, out-managed, out trainered, out hustled and outplayed all year long.
Give the Mets a little credit, if anything have some class as the season ends.
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
BirdDawg,
Well, first of all as a Braves fan I do agree that the Braves deserve some criticism for not winning more World Series titles. But you have to admit that what they’ve done is impressive.
Winning division titles is easier with the current alignment but winning the World Series is harder. This is just speculation, obviously, but I think the Braves would have won fewer division titles, but more World Series under the old alignments. But, okay, criticizing the Braves for only one World Series title is fair.
As far as the playoffs being a crapshoot, I don’t know who invented the phrase, but it’s true. It’s very common for the World Series winner to not be the best team, no matter how you measure which is the best team (record, run differential, Pythagorean record, whatever).
And as far as Braves fans not showing up, I guarantee that as far as percentage of the population going to baseball games, Atlanta has ranked right up there with or better than any baseball city.
Every team’s attendance is going to increase when they win. Go back and take a look at the Yankees attendance in the periods of the 1970’s and 1980’s when they weren’t winning. Attendance is tied to winning in pretty much every case. The only exception may be Wrigley and Fenway, which is probably because of the history of the parks.
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Is there anyone who wants to post anything intelligent and reasonable or is everyone just in an emotional mood today?
By TG
September 13, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
Sorry Shaun, but the facts don’t bear out your assertions on attendance. From 2001-2006 the Braves have finished between 10th and 16th in overall attendance. In fact, they finished behind the Rockies one year.
Also, I know of no other team that has trouble selling out playoff games.
I agree that winning usually correlates to attendance, but that’s not really worked for Braves last several years. Hasn’t worked for Marlins either, by the way.
By ugadawg
September 13, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
Thomas,
Love the optimism, but it’s kind of hard to put a good spin on this year. On a team in which produced 3 all-stars, has a legitimate shot at producing 4 100+ RBI players, and had a starter that was being given consideration as a Cy Young candidate, we aren’t even 500. That’s not good, no matter what kind of spin you put on it.
By Reid Adair
September 13, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this
The BIGGEST reason for the streak ending is ownership’s repeated reduction in payroll.
PERIOD.
You can only do so much with that little money.
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
It had to end sometime. The Mets put together the better team. Barring a miracle, the Braves wouldn’t have won the division anyway, there are three obvious reasons the Braves have very little hope in the Wild Card race:
1)Pitching injuries. Hampton, Thomson, Davies, Hampton, Reitsma. True, none of these guys would be Cy Young candidates but they would better better than anything the Braves were “forced” to use.
2)Relying on pitchers that were too young, too old or not good enough. It seems to me like Schuerholz went into spring training hoping Devine could backup Reitsma in the closer’s roll and be a solid setup man. He also was relying on young Kyle Davies to have a big year. Nothing wrong with relying on young pitching but you better have plenty of quality if you expect to contend, because you know you’re going to have some injuries. And I know it was only a few games, but shouldn’t Schuerholz have realized based on last season’s performance that Devine was a question mark? Surely he could have found better relievers than Paronto, Ray, Yates, Remlinger, Franklin, etc. to solidify the bullpen.
3) Bad luck. The Braves lost a lot of close games. There isn’t really any consistency in records in close games from half-to-half or year-to-year, evidence that winning close games is just good luck and losing them is bad luck. The Braves have lost more one-run games than any team. If a few of those had gone their way, they would be at least in the thick of the Wild Card race and maybe leading it.
Notice none of these have to do with the offense. The Braves are right up there with the best offenses in the league in runs scored. The offense has been just fine.
Something else, John Schuerholz is obviously a great GM. It’s hard to knock him but every GM has weaknesses and I’m going to nit-pick. When is the last time he raided another team’s farm system, ala Billy Beane and Terry Ryan? I know those teams have to do it, but it’s smart for any team to trade their veterans for two or three top prospects from another team.
Imagine how much the Braves could have received for Glavine and Maddux had Schuerholz been willing to trade them a year before their contracts expired. Terry Ryan got Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and Boof Bonser for A.J. Pierzynski. I know trading veterans for prospects would have possibly costs the Braves the “streak” but think what it could have done in the long-term.
Schuerholz trusts his teams to young players but it’s odd that he only seems to trust his own young players, not young players from other organizations.
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this
TG,
Total attendance is not the same as percentage of the population attending games. If the team is in a large city and has a ballpark with a large capacity, their total attendance is going to be greater. I think that would be a better measure of how much fans care about going to baseball in a particular market. And I haven’t looked up specific numbers, but I would guess Atlanta is really no different than most other major league cities as far as percentage of the population going to games.
And if I remember correctly the Reds didn’t sell out during the 1995 playoffs. And I don’t know if the Pirates sold out all their playoff games in the early ‘90’s.
The Marlins are a different animal. Of course fans aren’t going to support the team when ownership is basically trying to con them into paying for a new stadium. They dismantle the team every few years so they can say “Woe is us. We need a new stadium so we can keep the team together.”
One more thing, a new stadium or new team might have higher than expected attendance. But mostly attendance and winning go hand-in-hand.
By TG
September 13, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
Wow. Your logically is seriously flawed. Atlanta is the 8th largest market in the United States, so it has a large pool to draw from. Teams from areas such as SF, SD, St. Louis and Seattle, just to name a few, typically outdraw the Braves and they have smaller populations to draw from.
And sorry, but given the fact that 8 teams make the playoffs each year (so over last 10 years 80 teams have made the playoffs) and naming a couple of others that didn’t sell out isn’t exactly compelling.
Bottom line: Many Braves fans (not the passionate ones on this site) are complacent and took for granted success. That’s why your attendance is not so great and you struggled with playoff sellouts.
Sorry, but facts are facts.
By Lou
September 13, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
After 14 years as division champs, the Braves believe it is now their birthright. Look at the arrogance of Marcus Giles before the disastrous METS series when he was talking of a sweep like the METS were knats to be swatted away. What the Braves forgot was that for their 14 years they were a very good team in a weak division. This was proven was when they could only muster one World Series title. The only thing Bobby Cox is good at is moaning and groaning at the umps when he didn’t like the balls and stikes calls!
By bryanstone
September 13, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
I’ll let you people worry about how many people are in attendance,… I’m worried about this team winning games
and for the record,… the Wild Card chasing Reds barely sniffed 20K the other night,…
just sayin’
By RobertH
September 13, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Hey Thomas, Hudson has a 5.33 ERA in his last four starts. Please explain to me how he has “corrected” himself. Anyone who thinks Hudson is ever going to be anything approaching a #1 or #2 starter must be on crack. In his 31 starts, he has given up more than 5 runs per nine innings in 16 of those starts…over half the time. Trading for him was a good move. Committing to him for 5 years at 13 million a year in 2008 and 2009 was one of the stupidest moves in the history of this franchise. To put it in perspective, Johan Santana will make 13 million next year. You gotta be on crack if you think Hudson is ever gonna be worth even half of what Santana’s worth.
So let’s see if I understand this. For next year’s rotation, we’re counting on a great pitcher who’s nearing the end of his career and finishing this year injured (Smoltz), a washed up has-been who’s a fraction of his former self (Hudson), a guy who’s comining off surgery and has been out a year and a half (Hampton), another guy who’s been injured and inconsistent throughout his career (Ramirez), another guy who’s spent much of the year hurt (Davies), and a guy coming off a pretty good rookie year (James). Only the fact that these guys are Braves causes you to be optimistic…it certainly isn’t based on fact. Or, to put it in a different light, if it was the Mets coming back next year with a rotation like this, we’d be laughing our heads off at them and already penciling them in for about 4th place in the division.
By RobertH
September 13, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this
Hey Thomas, Hudson has a 5.33 ERA in his last four starts. Please explain to me how he has “corrected” himself. Anyone who thinks Hudson is ever going to be anything approaching a #1 or #2 starter must be on crack. In his 31 starts, he has given up more than 5 runs per nine innings in 16 of those starts…over half the time. Trading for him was a good move. Committing to him for 5 years at 13 million a year in 2008 and 2009 was one of the stupidest moves in the history of this franchise. To put it in perspective, Johan Santana will make 13 million next year. You gotta be on crack if you think Hudson is ever gonna be worth even half of what Santana’s worth.
So let’s see if I understand this. For next year’s rotation, we’re counting on a great pitcher who’s nearing the end of his career and finishing this year injured (Smoltz), a washed up has-been who’s a fraction of his former self (Hudson), a guy who’s comining off surgery and has been out a year and a half (Hampton), another guy who’s been injured and inconsistent throughout his career (Ramirez), another guy who’s spent much of the year hurt (Davies), and a guy coming off a pretty good rookie year (James). Only the fact that these guys are Braves causes you to be optimistic…it certainly isn’t based on fact. Or, to put it in a different light, if it was the Mets coming back next year with a rotation like this, we’d be laughing our heads off at them and already penciling them in for about 4th place in the division.
By TG
September 13, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this
A few more facts on Braves attendance. If you analyze the largest markets and also the average % of seats sold at a ballpark, it demonstrates the Braves challenge.
Of the largest markets (throwing out DC because the Nationals were new) the vast majority had attendance that at least was 2/3s of total area attendance and/or 75% capacity of a stadium. Seven cities achieved both of those metrics - LA, NY, Chicago (all with 2 teams), Houston, Boston, San Diego and St. Louis.
Only two cities didn’t each either metric - Atlanta and Detroit.
Congrats, Atlanta, your closest comparison is Detroit.
Two c
By TG
September 13, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this
A few more facts on Braves attendance. If you analyze the largest markets and also the average % of seats sold at a ballpark, it demonstrates the Braves challenge.
Of the largest markets (throwing out DC because the Nationals were new) the vast majority had attendance that at least was 2/3s of total area attendance and/or 75% capacity of a stadium. Seven cities achieved both of those metrics - LA, NY, Chicago (all with 2 teams), Houston, Boston, San Diego and St. Louis.
Only two cities didn’t achieve either metric - Atlanta and Detroit.
Congrats, Atlanta, your closest comparison is Detroit.
Two c
By Lou
September 13, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this
After 14 years as division champs, the Braves believe it is now their birthright. Look at the arrogance of Marcus Giles before the disastrous METS series when he was talking of a sweep like the METS were knats to be swatted away. What the Braves forgot was that for their 14 years they were a very good team in a weak division. This was proven was when they could only muster one World Series title. The only thing Bobby Cox is good at is moaning and groaning at the umps when he didn’t like the balls and stikes calls!
By Ryder
September 13, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this
The Braves are still my team, no matter what!
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this
TG,
I’m not sure. Your logic seems a little more flawed. According to the US Census info from the ‘90’s, the Atlanta metro area is the 11th largest in terms of population. San Fran is 5th, Seattle is 13th and St. Louis is 18th.
You also have to look at their parks’ seating capacities, which could be a reason why a team would outdraw another.
Percentage of the population going to games and taking into account wins and stadium seating capacity seems like the best way to measure. Seems pretty logical to me. A lot more than just total attendance.
I’m not saying the Braves fans go to more games than anyone, but my guess is that their attendance is better than the average team when taking population and winning into account.
I obviously haven’t done a scientific study but based on my observations (the fact that the Braves have their fair share of sell outs and just by looking around at the games) it seems that Braves fans are at least right on par with most other teams. I’m sure their are some teams with better attendance when taking all these things into account, but I would guess the Braves are above average.
Also, you said you don’t recall any team that has trouble selling out playoff games. I brought up the Reds and Pirates as examples. Kindof like you brought up only a few teams that you say have out-drawn the Braves.
By 59bulldawg
September 13, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
Amen Larry!!! I couldn’t have said it better myself. Cox’s reputation far outshines his ability.
By Lane Tucker
September 13, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this
What’s the difference between the Braves 2006 season and the four previous seasons. This season the Braves only have to play 3-5 few games to end their season - ONE AND OUT
1991 First post season choke vs Twins 1992 Second post season choke vs Blue Jays 1993 Third post season choke 1995 NL East NL Champion WS champion 1996 Fourth post season choke vs Yankees 1997 Fifth post season choke vs wild card Marlins 1998 Sixth post season choke versus weak Padres team 1999 NL East, NL Champions, Beaten 4-0 by great Yankee team 2000 Seventh fourth Post season choke vs Cards ONE AND OUT 2001 Eight Post season choke vs Diamondbacks 2002 Ninth Post season choke vs Wild Card Giants ONE AND OUT 2003 Tenth post season choke vs Cubs ONE AND OUT 2004 Eleventh Post season choke vs wild card Astros ONE AND OUT 2005 Twelth post season choke vs wild card Astros ONE AND OUT
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this
TG,
I’m not denying some teams outdraw the Braves even when taking into account population. But I disagree that Braves are among the worst in attendance; I think they are probably average or above.
I’m sure St. Louis, for one, is more baseball nuts than Atlanta.
I’m just saying Atlanta fans get a bad wrap. But I would almost guarantee you that if you did a detailed study on attendance, Braves fans would be no different than most other baseball fans (not all but most).
By TG
September 13, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
We can agree to disagree. The demographics I used are from the last census in 2000. I agree that St. Louis is an exception, as is Boston, by the way.
I don’t think the Braves are the worst in attendance, but I think given your hypothesis that winning leads to higher attendance the Braves would do draw more fans than what they have done.
Cheers
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
Of the largest markets (throwing out DC because the Nationals were new) the vast majority had attendance that at least was 2/3s of total area attendance and/or 75% capacity of a stadium. Seven cities achieved both of those metrics - LA, NY, Chicago (all with 2 teams), Houston, Boston, San Diego and St. Louis.
Only two cities didn’t achieve either metric - Atlanta and Detroit.
I’m not sure what that part about ‘2/3 of total attendance’ means, but their are problems with the logic of looking at attendance in terms of percentage of ballpark capacity.
Atlanta and Detroit aren’t extremely populous cities and their ballparks are pretty large. Of course their stadiums aren’t going to be filled to the same capacity percentage-wise as places like New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
If the same percentage of the population go to ballgames in New York and Atlanta and if their parks were the exact same size, New York’s stadium is going to be more full than Atlanta’s. For instance, New York’s stadium may fill to 75% capacity and Atlanta’s may fill to 68% capacity but the percentage of the population attending could be the same or higher in Atlanta because New York has a higher population.
By 59bulldawg
September 13, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this
If you want to check facts Josh, check Bobby’s record his first time as Atlanta manager. It’s abysmal. Most managers, no matter how inept can do at least a decent job if there’s talent on the team. Bobby’s Jays had talent in the 80s but even they choked in the playoffs during his one championship season there. What sets managers apart is that some can take mediocre talent and excell with it. Others like Bobby take a great deal of talent (over the years) and misuse it by letting players manage themselves. Bobby didn’t show me anything his first time in Atlanta and it did take a superb outing by Glavine to bring a world championship home in 1995. Sad thing is we should have had at least 2-3 more to go with it. And Bobby’s managing style, at least in my opinion,is a major reason why. And lest you think I’m just piling on during a losing season, I’ve been saying this since Toronto beat us in the World Series. No … everything that went wrong this season is not Bobby’s fault but I think he should go ride his tractor and let someone new take the reins now.
By ugadawg
September 13, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
For all these demographic posts, Atlanta is not a huge city, but the metro area is. That is the difference of Atlanta and some other cities that draw well. Chicago and Boston are both very populous cities in the city proper, and the majority of the teams there live in the city limits.
Atlanta, on the other hand, only has about 400,000 in the city, and around 4 million in the metro area. The fan base of Braves’ baseball? In the metro area.
I’m a hardcore Braves fan and have been for all my life. I live in Lawrenceville, but I’m not going to drive in during rush hour or hop on MARTA just to go down there and watch them lose all the time.
Plus, every time I go, the fans seem more interested in starting the wave than the ballgame, regardless of the score. So instead, I watch almost every game from the comfort of my own home. I think that is the mentality of a lot of Braves fans….that and the fact that despite the “winning tradition”, we’ve only had one World Series during that run.
By P Dub Braves fan
September 13, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
For all the people taking shots at the Braves and saying there division title run, Schuerholz, and Cox are overrated, see what anyone who is something in baseball says about the Braves. (that would be front office personnel, players, coaches, etc.) All of them have unbelievable respect for what the Braves have accomplished over the 14 year run. They know how difficult it is to sustain success over a long period, which is why the Braves are arguably the most respected franchise in baseball. When your peers( peers being players, coaches, front office, etc.) have great respect for what you are doing, that says all you need to know.
As for Cox being overrated, well, there is a reason why he is consistently voted one of the top three managers in baseball by his peers. His players love to play for him, as he always has confidence in them. I hope Cox sticks around for as long as he wants to manage. He’s earned that right in my opinion, and I think his players would agree.
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this
TG,
According to the 2000 census data I’m looking at, Atlanta is ranked 11th in terms of metro area population. San Fran is 5th.
My hypothesis that winning leads to higher attendance seems to be fact, but I haven’t done any scientific studies or anything. It seems like Atlanta’s attendance is right on par with other winning teams if you take into account population. Like I said, I’m sure it’s not the best but I’d be surprised if it’s not about average or a little better compared to other perennial winners.
By TG
September 13, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
Agree on all fronts. But here’s Braves attendance since 1991:
1991: 2.1 million 1992: 3.1 1993: 3.9 1994: 2.5 1995: 2.6 1996: 2.9 1997: 3.5 1998: 3.4 1999: 3.3 2000: 3.2 2001: 2.8 2002: 2.6 2003: 2.4 2004: 2.3 2005: 2.5
If Braves are so good, why has their attendance dipped so much? If there is a correlation between winning and attendance, why has attendance dipped while they continued to win? And why is there attendance lower in a new stadium than it was in an older stadium when they are still winning?
Curious to know your perspective.
By matt
September 13, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this
Thank you Lou- the braves have been a pretty good team in the weakest division. I don’t know what I’m talking about you say? How do you explain them getting bounced year after year from the playoffs? The playoffs are a crapshoot? Am I to believe that the Braves are just that unlucky, 13 out of 14 times? AM I to believe that the cards just didn’t fall the Braves way AGAIN year after year? Am I to believe that the Yankees were just SUPER LUCKY when they won 3 or 4 WS during the 90’s and early 2000s?!?!?!?! How is the playoffs a crapshoot?!? Same players, same manager, same ball, same bat, same glove! The answer is PRESSURE and the failure to rise to the occasion!!!
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this
There are problems with the logic of looking at attendance in terms of percentage of ballpark capacity.
Atlanta and Detroit aren’t extremely populous cities and their ballparks are pretty large. Of course their stadiums aren’t going to be filled to the same capacity percentage-wise as places like New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.
If the same percentage of the population go to ballgames in New York and Atlanta and if their parks were the exact same size, New York’s stadium is going to be more full than Atlanta’s. For instance, New York’s stadium may fill to 75% capacity and Atlanta’s may fill to 68% capacity but the percentage of the population attending could be the same or higher in Atlanta because New York has a higher population.
By TG
September 13, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
Got it, but to my post above, why has the Braves attendance dipped so much over the last decade?
Look forward to your perspective.
By jokurone
September 13, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this
It was all about the pitching: starting,mid-relief, closer, never had any consistency JS was way too late to stop the bleeding. reload and give the Mets heck next season.
By Vinnie Boombotz
September 13, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
LOL @ people actually claiming to be “hardcore” Braves fans….I don’t think any fans can be hardcore when they can’t sell out a playoff game for their team. You want hardcore, look to NY, Chicago, & Boston, not an empty seat in the house come playoff time.
As for the Braves - I called this disaster weeks ago. Where did my boy KC disappear to? You still want to put up money that the Braves won’t make the playoffs, buddy? HAHA Losers….The end of days is here for the Braves, welcome to the Glorious 80’s, because I know you fairweathered Braves fans will abandon Turner Field and make it in to a cemetary just like you did to Fulton County Stadium when the Braves were a below .500 team back in the 80’s.
The Team. The Time. The Celebration.
Go Mets!!!!
By Shaun
September 13, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this
TG,
It looks like attendance spiked when the Braves moved into Turner Field and they reached the World Series in 1999, so that could explain the spike in 1999 and 2000. Every other year it has been around 2.3-2.5 million pretty consistently. The newness of a stadium wears off at some point and that becomes a non-factor. I’m sure you can go back and look at teams that win and play in what most would consider bad stadiums but their attendance is just as good as winners that play in what would be considered nice stadiums.
This is all just a guess. It looks like attendance spiked around the years the Braves reached/won the World Series and moved into Turner Field and leveled out at around 2.3-2.5 million in other years.
Also, there was the perception the Braves actually had a decent chance to win the World Series in some years and the perception that they might just be a good team in other years. I’m sure expectation makes a difference, too.
Actually, there hasn’t been as big a fluctuation as some would think. It’s been pretty steady.
By Ed Amiss Jr
September 13, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this
The Braves made one of the biggest mistakes inteam history by ridding themselves of Future Super Star Wilson Betimet. Plain stupid.
By Ed Amiss Jr
September 13, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
The Braves made one of the biggest mistakes inteam history by ridding themselves of Future Super Star Wilson Betimet. Plain stupid.
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this
remember this column losers?
“Since they last won a World Series in 1986, there generally have been two absolutes about the New York Mets: 1) They’re supposed to be great; 2) They’re not. Only with that coupled entry can a franchise have such spectacular and amusing crashes…
“The Mets have watched the Braves win the division all too often. I guess they figure if they have a five-game lead in April, best to milk it for all it’s worth. You would just think that after so much misery and Atlanta’s 14 straight division titles, spring celebrations would be, um, tempered.”…
“The only difference this season is that the Mets actually have lived up to the hype. (Well, some of it.) Over the past two years, they have added Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca and Billy Wagner. Some things, apparently, even the Mets can’t mess up…
“But Tuesday was the inevitable reality slap. Andruw Jones hit two home runs. LaRoche hit another. The Braves, playing without Chipper Jones and Edgar Renteria, led 5-0 through three innings, and the Mets hadn’t even set their playoff rotation yet…
“Meanwhile, the Mets lost. They’re six games out of last.”…
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
remember this column losers?
“Since they last won a World Series in 1986, there generally have been two absolutes about the New York Mets: 1) They’re supposed to be great; 2) They’re not. Only with that coupled entry can a franchise have such spectacular and amusing crashes…
“The Mets have watched the Braves win the division all too often. I guess they figure if they have a five-game lead in April, best to milk it for all it’s worth. You would just think that after so much misery and Atlanta’s 14 straight division titles, spring celebrations would be, um, tempered.”…
“The only difference this season is that the Mets actually have lived up to the hype. (Well, some of it.) Over the past two years, they have added Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca and Billy Wagner. Some things, apparently, even the Mets can’t mess up…
“But Tuesday was the inevitable reality slap. Andruw Jones hit two home runs. LaRoche hit another. The Braves, playing without Chipper Jones and Edgar Renteria, led 5-0 through three innings, and the Mets hadn’t even set their playoff rotation yet…
“Meanwhile, the Mets lost. They’re six games out of last.”…
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this
remember this column losers?
“Since they last won a World Series in 1986, there generally have been two absolutes about the New York Mets: 1) They’re supposed to be great; 2) They’re not. Only with that coupled entry can a franchise have such spectacular and amusing crashes…
“The Mets have watched the Braves win the division all too often. I guess they figure if they have a five-game lead in April, best to milk it for all it’s worth. You would just think that after so much misery and Atlanta’s 14 straight division titles, spring celebrations would be, um, tempered.”…
“The only difference this season is that the Mets actually have lived up to the hype. (Well, some of it.) Over the past two years, they have added Carlos Beltran, Pedro Martinez, Carlos Delgado, Paul Lo Duca and Billy Wagner. Some things, apparently, even the Mets can’t mess up…
“But Tuesday was the inevitable reality slap. Andruw Jones hit two home runs. LaRoche hit another. The Braves, playing without Chipper Jones and Edgar Renteria, led 5-0 through three innings, and the Mets hadn’t even set their playoff rotation yet…
“Meanwhile, the Mets lost. They’re six games out of last.”…
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
remember this column losers?
“Since they last won a World Series in 1986, there generally have been two absolutes about the New York Mets: 1) They’re supposed to be great; 2) They’re not. Only with that coupled entry can a franchise have such spectacular and amusing crashes…
“The Mets have watched the Braves win the division all too often. I guess they figure if they have a five-game lead in April, best to milk it for all it’s worth. You would just think that after so much misery and Atlanta’s 14 straight division titles, spring celebrations would be, um, tempered.”…
“But Tuesday was the inevitable reality slap. Andruw Jones hit two home runs. LaRoche hit another. The Braves, playing without Chipper Jones and Edgar Renteria, led 5-0 through three innings, and the Mets hadn’t even set their playoff rotation yet…
“Meanwhile, the Mets lost. They’re six games out of last.”…
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this
Hey braves fans nice season, how many games out of last are you ladies now?
By Bob
September 13, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
ugadawg is absolutely correct. It is not that easy for most people in metro Atlanta to just bop on down to the game, and this has a great deal to do with the proverbially poor attendance at Braves games.
By gadfly
September 13, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
you can paint it anyway you want to all you diehard braves fans but face it, IT’S OVER, and so is the future after lose andru, schmoltzy, cox, & shuerholtz. chipper should have been traded 2 years ago and hampton and hudson are BUSTS!!! with the new ownership waiting in the wings, ya’ll might as well get ready for MEDIOCRITY cause that’s exactly what the braves and their new crowned hero, frenchy, will be facing year in and year out. good luck fellow hardballers and GO METS IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!!
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
How many games out of last are the braves now? Losers
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this
How many games out of last are the braves now? Losers
By Mikey
September 13, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this
One title in 14 playoffs, pathetic
By Matt
September 13, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Below find a comment that was placed, on this very website back in april..
By Ryder April 19, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this Hey when September rolls around, I want every Mets fan to remember this article. No matter who they get, THEY’LL NEVER TAKE ATLANTA’S TITLE! Get it, got it, good!”
By Matt
September 13, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this
Below find a comment that was placed, on this very website back in april..
By Ryder April 19, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this Hey when September rolls around, I want every Mets fan to remember this article. No matter who they get, THEY’LL NEVER TAKE ATLANTA’S TITLE! Get it, got it, good!”
By ugadawg
September 13, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this
TG,
As someone else stated, you have to look at those numbers a little bit harder than that. The attendance actually went up in 96 and then 97 in the years following a WS win, and has tapered ever since, other than the new ballpark novelty.
But the fact remains that this year’s attendance was still better than the worst to first year, and the Braves simply aren’t that good.
By TG
September 13, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
You are certainly a glass-full guy, I will give you that. They have had much better attendance in the 1990s, even without the new stadium spike.
But even if you accept your argument that its been typically 2.5 or so over last decade, that doesn’t take into account the INCREASE most teams (especially winning teams) have seen in attendance over last 10 years. Dodgers, Yanks, Cards, Angels, Red Sox, White Sox, A’s have experienced a more than 25% increase in attendance between 1998 and 2005 (1998 was first year that attendance reached pre-strike levels).
So, Braves staying at 2.5 in an up market for fan attendance isn’t good, anymore than a stock stuck at the same price in a bull market wouldn’t be good.
I’m sure you will have a good reason for this, and I can’t wait to hear it.
By Shaun Payne
September 13, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this
TG,
Well, for one, baseball has become increasingly more popular since the strike ended. I just heard Pete Van Wieren on the radio talking about major and minor league baseball setting attendance records the past three years. College baseball is more popular than ever. That explains the increase for most teams. In 1998 attendance reached pre-strike levels and, I don’t know, but I suspect continued to grow at a similar pre-strike pace. Assuming the economy is good and there is no labor strife, attendance is going to naturally rise every year as the population rises.
Also, all those teams started to become contenders roughly in the years you mentioned, 1998-2005. Most of those teams you mentioned were in somewhat of a lull and came out in the late 1990’s. Maybe not all, but most of them.
Revenue sharing started to kick in during those years and more fans feel like their teams have a chance. Remember in 1993 baseball was more popular than ever, so the growth that started in 1998 was just baseball picking up where it left off before the strike.
If you’ll notice, the Braves attendance dip started to happen when they started losing in the first round or in the NLCS. Also, when the expectations started to decline so did attendance. From 1991-1999, they averaged probably in the high 30,000’s. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they started to dip after their last World Series appearance in 1999.
I know it’s not an in-depth, scientific study but it seems, at least in the Braves’ case, playoff record matters in attendance, too.
Obviously I believe winning is the major factor, but it’s not the only factor. I think you have to take into account income of fans, what other sports teams are doing in the city (the Orioles had trouble drawing people in the late 1960’s during the football season because of the Colts), what else is going on in the city…there are all kinds of factors that could cause attendance to change a little. If a team wins, attendance is going to fluctuate a little, but it’s basically going to remain consistent.
I’m not trying to be optimistic, just realistic.
By TG
September 13, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
You have missed your calling - you should be a politician! I have no idea what your last post has to do with a 1M fan loss for the Braves, but I enjoyed it anyway.
Next time I need a lawyer, I am calling you!
Cheers
By bravesfansince1966
September 13, 2006 07:56 PM | Link to this
the only thing worse than the braves were the fsn/turners south announcers… call it like it is: the Braves are NOT playing MLB caliber ball… STOP sugar coating it!!!!!
By bartron
September 13, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this
Adam LaRoche currently leads the Braves in batting average. wouldn’t have predicted that back in May. Sure glad we didn’t trade him like everyone here wanted to.
By Steve
September 13, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this
Very clear article and I think it pretty much sums it up. Let’s not forget the good things though. Great young guys coming back…LaRoche, McCann, Francour. How about James…a great addition to the pitching staff. There is a lot to grow with.
By bartron
September 13, 2006 09:05 PM | Link to this
Adam LaRoche currently leads the Braves in batting average. wouldn’t have predicted that back in May. Sure glad we didn’t trade him like everyone here wanted to
By bartron
September 13, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this
Adam LaRoche currently leads the Braves in batting average. wouldn’t have predicted that back in May. Sure glad we didn’t trade him like everyone here wanted to
By bartron
September 13, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this
Adam LaRoche currently leads the Braves in batting average. wouldn’t have predicted that back in May. Sure glad we didn’t trade him like everyone here wanted to
By Larry O
September 13, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this
If anyone had told me that the Atlanta Braves would win 14 straight division titles in 1990, i would have laughed until my stomach hurt. Doesnt anyone remember 61-101 in 1977 or 56-104 in 1988? I really dont think anyone, outside of longtime Braves fans, can appricate what we have witnessed. I, for one, will continue to watch the Braves , whether they win 100 or lose 100 in the future. I hope all of you bandwagon hoppers land on your feet when you jump off.
By Skip Caray
September 13, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this
Gimme a break about the last comment Bradley. I could out-write you and any of the other 20 femine hygein products that pretend to be sports journalists for AJC. Suck my sack bia.