AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2006 > June > 26 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USLegacies trade places in one classic fall
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Mark Bradley
New York — Nine years and eight months ago, two teams gathered in the cathedral of baseball for a World Series that would change both of them forever. The Braves could have — OK, should have — stamped themselves as an assemblage for the ages. Instead they lost a lead and a Series and were never quite the same again.
We know all about Game 4 — about the wasted 6-0 lead; about the slider Mark Wohlers threw to that rat Jim Leyritz; about Steve Avery walking Wade Boggs with the bases loaded. That was the point of departure for both franchises, but no discussion of any of the games the Yankees won in that Series can be complete without recalling the two games they lost.
The Braves were the reigning champions. They arrived at Yankee Stadium after storming from 3-1 down to beat St. Louis in the NLCS, outscoring the Cardinals 32-1 over the final three games. Then they won Games 1 and 2 here by the aggregate score of 16-1. Said Chipper Jones: “About the best five-game stretch I’ve seen a Braves team play. ….It was utter domination.”
When the proceedings moved to Atlanta, the question wasn’t whether the Yankees could win the Series but whether they could take a game. “We knew how good the Braves were,” said Joe Torre, who Monday recalled the 19-year-old Andruw Jones smacking two Game 1 homers off Andy Pettitte as “pretty awesome.”
“We never really think negatively,” said Mariano Rivera, who came to prominence that postseason as a setup man for John Wetteland. “But we had a meeting [after the Braves won Game 1 by 11 runs] and Joe said, ‘Take it game by game and just enjoy yourselves.’”
Two games down and seemingly bound to become the forgotten losers as the dynastic Braves sent out Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium on the highest possible note, the Yankees and Torre did a tiny but massive thing. Facing Tom Glavine, Tim Raines led off Game 3 with a walk, and then Torre had his No. 2 hitter — a certain Derek Jeter — sacrifice him over. The Bronx Bombers, bunting? “I just wanted to take a lead,” Torre would say later, and that attention to detail was something the rampaging Braves couldn’t match.
“We played little games,” said Rivera, remembering that World Series, “and we won huge games. We played the game the way you’re supposed to play it.”
“Probably the best decision I made in that World Series,” said Torre, who’d both played for and managed the Braves, “was scheduling David Cone to pitch the first game down there. I knew how intimidating that park could be. And then, when it was 6-0 in Game 4, we got the first three runs back [off Denny Neagle]. That gave us hope we could do something.”
The Yankees would go on to win four Series in five years, which definitely constitutes doing something. The Braves haven’t won a World Series game since. Talking to his son years later, Larry Wayne Jones Sr. said, “Jim Leyritz stole the Team of the ’90s [designation] from the Braves.” The son wouldn’t argue the point then or now. “I still think we had a pretty good run,” Chipper Jones said, “but they had the world championships to back it up.”
The teams gathered again Monday in the big ballpark by the Lexington Avenue subway line, neither side being what it was. The Braves are 16 games out of first place, and the profligate-but-infirm Yankees might well miss the playoffs for the first time since 1993. (Even in their weakened state, the Yankees toyed with the Braves, Jason Giambi driving in five runs before Tim Hudson could record his sixth out.)
Any time these teams play, the mind flashes back to 1996, and the mind, as it tends to do, goes wandering and wondering. Would the Yankees have grown into a colossus had they lost meekly in ‘96? Would a frosted George Steinbrenner have fired Torre and dumped Jeter for a bigger name? Wouldn’t the last nine years and eight months have felt a lot different if Wohlers had stuck with his fastball?
Permalink | Comments (65) | Post your comment | Categories: Braves / MLB, Mark Bradley
Comments
By SoCal Hal
June 27, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this
For those pitchers having the worst year of their career, come to Atlanta or have us Braves come to you. We promise you’ll have your best game of the season.
Best Regards, The Braves
By SoCal Hal
June 27, 2006 12:49 AM | Link to this
For those pitchers having the worst year of their career, come to Atlanta or have us Braves come to you. We promise you’ll have your best game of the season.
Best Regards, The Braves
By chopthis
June 27, 2006 01:25 AM | Link to this
Didn’t the AJC run the headline “Why play it out?” after going up 2-0 on the Yankees in 1996?
Typical example of Atlanta Braves hubris. That probably turned out to be a worse jinx than a “Sports Illustrated” cover.
By op
June 27, 2006 02:13 AM | Link to this
91 was pure unexpected fun, people that never watched baseball became Braves fans all over the South and other parts of the nation too. 92 was to good to be true, capped by Bream’s gimpy run. 93 was fun ‘til we lost to Philly. 94 stupid strike. 95 we finally won it all, but some of those people caught up in the 91-92 races had lost interest, and some “fans” had come to expect nothing less than the Series title already. I personally enjoyed the heck out of it. 96 we were even better, til St Louis scared us silly in the league playoffs, then came the incredible 5 game stretch mentioned by Mark, when we were all so certain that the Braves were going to dominate the universe for all time. Then the Yankees came and burned Atlanta again. And all the subsequent division titles are still incredible and worthy of respect and honor, but its never been as much fun since 96 ended. Good job Mr. Bradley.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:41 AM | Link to this
91 and 96 was Bobby Cox getting outmanaged by Tom Kelly and Joe Torre. In the seventh game of the 91 series , the eighth inning debalicle happened. lonnie smith singles then gets deeked by Knoblauch rounding second on Pendletons double and fails to score , then with two runners on second and third with nobody out Ron Gant grounds out , then they loaded the bases with (Justice walked)one out and again failed to score when Bream bounces into a double play. All because Cox didnt and still doesnt know how play(suicide squeeze bunt) small ball. Game four of the 96 series ,we are up two games to one and winning game four 6-0 in the seventh inning. Mike Bielecki had handcuffed the Yankees out of the bullpen by pitching two brilliant innings (the 6th and 7th) Then Cox has a massive brain fart and does something he hadnt done all season long. He brings his closer , Wohlers in to pitch the 8th inning instead of letting Bielecki pitch the 8th and finish the Yankees. Wohlers promptly coughs up three runs and the Yankees dynasty is born. Cox is the greatest cheerleader in the dugout and he knows how to motivate players into giving their best on the field and he was a pretty good GM too. I said all that to say this, Bobby Cox is the most predictable and overrated manager in the game. After 18 seasons of managing the book on Bobby Cox has been read and reread by every opposing coach in the game. He cant suprise anybody anymore and is completely predictable. He needs to retire , write a book and write his hall of fame acceptance speech.
By PoliticalMan
June 27, 2006 06:55 AM | Link to this
The 91 and 96 WS were indeed disconcerting - it almost seemed that the Braves were happy with underachieving. But there have been plenty of markers since on the road to where the Braves now find themselves.
Forget the “numbers” - especially Chipper’s. The Braves have had few good hitters through the yrs. They strike out, cannot advance runners, can’t bunt, etc. Amazingly it hasn’t cost them except for when they had to have them - in the playoffs. Their bullpen-pitchers-are-a-dime- a-dozen philosophy has come back and grabbed them around the neck. And Cox’s so-called player loyalty is beginning to look more and more like ineptitude. Why is Brian Jordan still in the big leagues? Why is fly-ball hitter Giles leading off. Why is Benemit on the bench? Why is Leroach on the team? Francouer probably should be in Richmond. It is no accident as to why the Braves are where they are. There have been plenty of markers along the way for all to see.
By The Grinch
June 27, 2006 07:19 AM | Link to this
Hey, guys, did you hear Bobby after the game? “Huddy wasn’t at his best.” No S#@%! He has officially stolen the title of “Captain Obvious” away from John Madden.
By jeff
June 27, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this
Interesting column from the guy who wrote after the 2-0 Series lead that the Braves were better than the ‘27 Yankees!
By Around and Around
June 27, 2006 08:32 AM | Link to this
I am an Atlanta native and have supported the Braves since they moved here. Having said that, I am a realistic fan as well. When the discussion comes up about the Braves and whether they should be considered a dynasty, my answer is a resounding NO. Dynasties are teams that persevered to win it all many times- not just the division. The Braves were outmanaged and outplayed in all but one of 14 seasons. If anything, the Braves truly underperformed to fall short so many times.
Many of the Braves’ exits can be blamed directly on Cox. He never had his teams ready to play and always gave the impression that there was a tomorrow. You can’t have this attitude in the postseason. In addition, his habit of sticking with players no matter their recent performance is a playoff no-no as well. He single handedly blew the 1991 series by throwing in Liebrandt in Game 6. Liebrandt was a soft throwing pitcher which is the last thing you want to bring in the late innings. Puckett hit one out and the rest is history. Bobby is like a great golfer who can’t putt.
The new Braves era should start with a new manager.
By Jim
June 27, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this
Hey Head Coach - Since when do you suicide squeeze w/ the bases loaded? You don’t. If you bothered to watch Braves games, you’d realize Cox puts on the suicide squeeze as much as any manager in the majors.
Flashback to the Braves/Padres series in 199_? Cox puts on a squeeze and Walt Weiss fails to put the bat on the ball. Runner from 3rd is dead. Padres go on and take the game and the series. Bad decision?
It all comes down to execution. Regardless of the managerial decision, the players have to execute. Our frustration w/ the Braves stems from the fact that they execute these plays routinely during the regular season, but freeze up and don’t do it in the postseason. It’s painful to watch.
By mart
June 27, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this
Nice article. ‘96 was a defining moment, but I think both the 91 and 92 World Series were just as disheartening and devastating. I attended the final game of ‘92 WS at Atlanta Stadium and remember the fans giving the team a standing ovation after the Blue Jays beat them in a close contest. I wondered why the fans were cheering, the Braves had just blown another opportunity at greatness, an opportunity that doesn’t come around that often and you have to make the most of when it does. There was still a feel-good attitude about the team in the early 90s, when it just a kick to see the Braves advance as far as they did. But they should have gone farther.
By PoliticalMan
June 27, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this
It’s hard to know who to blame for the simplistic coverage of the Braves over the yrs. Readers of the AJC/fans have generally excorciated writers who dared speak negatively of the Braves in yrs gone by. Every yr the writers talk about the genious of Cox and how they cannot possibly vote against them winning it all. Could they do otherwise?
The facts are that the Braves have been lucky in being in a division where the teams are even more inept than are they. Bowa was the ultimate morale destroyer; the Mets have always thrown money around without a clue. The shortsighted thinking of the Braves has been there to see all along. Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux hid a lot up to a point. The cover has now been ripped away. It’s not pretty.
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this
for all you losers that still like to blame all of the braves failures and shortcomings on bobby cox……GET A LIFE!
players win and lose games, not the manager. good managers set up a controlled, disciplined environment…all of bobby’s teams have come to play hard every night, for the most part stayed out of trouble, and they’ve won ballgames…. not everyone can win the world series…i’m not saying i’m satisfied with the braves only have one title during this run…but to contantly blame things on bobby have not only gotten tiresome but downright annoying!
great article mark……most people tend to forget how close we were to winning two in a row…but then again…i guess bobby not mark wohlers is to blame for losing game 3….
By Biff Pocaroba
June 27, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this
I remember someone after Game 2 writing something to the effect of “We’re not playing the Yankees anymore. We’re playing history.”
We should have just stuck with the Yankees.
By The Baseball Whisperer
June 27, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this
Now that this season is all but in the books, time to reflect on the Braves run. While they have owned the regular season for 14 years, they have fallen well short in their postseason trips. The Braves failed to capitalize given the number of times they got to the postseason. Of all the WS winners listed below, the Braves have the worst percentage of titles versus trips to the postseason.
WS winners from 1990(trips to postseason/WS winning %)
1990- Reds (2 trips- .500) 1991- Twins (4 trips- .250) 1992- Blue Jays (3 trips- .666) 1993- Bluejays (3 trips- .666) 1994- Strike 1995- Braves (14 trips- .071) 1996- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 1997- Marlins (2 trips- 1.00) 1998- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 1999- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 2000- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 2001- Diamondbacks (3 trips- .333) 2002- Angels (3 trips- .333) 2003- Marlins (2 trips- 1.00) 2004- Red Sox (7 trips- .142) 2005- White Sox (3 trips- .333)
By The Basball Whisperer
June 27, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this
Now that this season is all but in the books, time to reflect on the Braves run. While they have owned the regular season for 14 years, they have fallen well short in their postseason trips. The Braves failed to capitalize given the number of times they got to the postseason. Of all the WS winners listed below, the Braves have the worst percentage of titles versus trips to the postseason.
WS winners from 1990(trips to postseason/WS winning %)
1990- Reds (2 trips- .500) 1991- Twins (4 trips- .250) 1992- Blue Jays (3 trips- .666) 1993- Bluejays (3 trips- .666) 1994- Strike 1995- Braves (14 trips- .071) 1996- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 1997- Marlins (2 trips- 1.00) 1998- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 1999- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 2000- Yankees (11 trips- .363) 2001- Diamondbacks (3 trips- .333) 2002- Angels (3 trips- .333) 2003- Marlins (2 trips- 1.00) 2004- Red Sox (7 trips- .142) 2005- White Sox (3 trips- .333)
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this
ya harp on an article written years ago…like you guys have never said or written anything WRONG before….
all you whiners are the same bunch of fair weather fans that disappear during the bad days and pop back up to complain about every little thing when they win….it’s like unless the braves win the world series every freaking year you won’t be satisfied….atl=worst sports city in the history of america!
By Brent
June 27, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this
hmmmmmm …
So, Torre had Jeter sacrifice because he “just wanted to take a lead.”
Ten years later, Bobby Cox STILL hasn’t figured that one out!
By BOB C
June 27, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Baseball Whisperer - Your comparisions are just a tad unfair. For instance, where are the Pirates? They are oh for the post season - remember the slide? But on the other hand they are 3 for 3 in World Series since 1960. I’ll take our 14 post seasons even with the incredible disappointment of 1996 thrown in. The best team doesn’t always win (see above mentioned 1960 World Series).
By Franklins Tower
June 27, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this
honest abe- It is great that the world has people like you who just accept what they get and never strive to do any better. People like you allow the forward thinkers to go even further.
1 title in 14 trips is nothing to be proud of. Bobby Cox is a good regular season manager but stinks come the postseason. Check his record. He would have been rung-up long ago in almost any other town not named Cincinnati or Pittsburg.
By jim
June 27, 2006 09:54 AM | Link to this
Whisperer, Nice stats, but they are doing better than the teams w/ zero WS titles. How about the frustration of Cubs, Astros, A’s, Mets fans? At least Atlanta got 1.
Abe, I agree wholeheartedly. It’s too easy to look back at decisions made by Cox and say if he had done this, it would have worked out this way. That’s BS. The players need to take their fair share of blame.
That being said, I’d like the manager and the players to comment on why they can’t perform as well in the postseason as they do in the regular season. I can take the losing, but what I can’t take is how they are doing it. They make so many more mistakes in the postseason than they do in the regular season. Walt Weiss misses a squeeze bunt, Farnsworth can’t protect a 4 run lead, Gallaraga boots balls. I can’t take the bad baseball that they play in October. Somebody needs to provide an explanation. Hire Smoltz’ shrink for the rest of the team if that’s what it takes, but get it out in the open and address it.
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this
franklin tower is forward thinking = complaining, whining, and conceiving every negative thought that your measly head can conjure up…i’ll stick with status quo…
don’t put words into my mouth please…i just told you i wasn’t satisfied with just one title…just like you i wish we had won more…. however most of you morons break down the reasons for losing in the postseason to a ridiculous single situation….yes franklin, i’m am one in the minority that doesn’t believe in flipping the boat every time a so called “fan” like yourself asks for someone’s head…. according to all of you baseball experts, if we had just had a different manager….we would have won 10 world series…i mean sometimes the baseball god’s just frown on you…was it bobby’s fault in the nlcs against florida and the ump was calling ball 10 ft wide strikes?????????? i’m just saying we’ve played some pretty damn good ball…do i necessarily agree with bobby’s tatics’ all the time? NO..do i wish he would’ve played a little more small ball? of course…do i wish he would stop with all the platooning? yes….but in the long run i like his demeanor, the way he treats and fights for his players…i appreciate everything he’s done for this city and organization over the years…he’s represented us well…too bad he’ll never get the love he deserves amongst these pathetic “fans”
By Ron
June 27, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this
Thanks for the reminder. I’m sure all of us fans had completely forgot about 1996 and needed your refresher because watching the 2006 Braves wasn’t painful enough all by itself. Idiot.
By BarryJ
June 27, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this
This team has become unwatchable—I’ve practically stopped after the constant letdowns in the playoffs since the Yankees completely embarrassed us in the World Series 4-0.
We need to start from scratch, take our lumps, rebuild properly, and then this town will—once again—get fired up over the Braves…This collection of old, overpaid, and disinterested players must be replaced.
Schuerholz gets far too much credit for the early success of the team—as he certainly didn’t “build” them and left a sinking ship in KC at just the right time. Yes, adding about five vets was key at the time, but that was it. The foundation was the pitching and the young talent, which he had absolutely nothing to do with.
When was the last legitimate pitcher this organization has grown on the farm?
Our record over the last ten years’ in the postseason is an absolute joke. It’s past time to clean house.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this
Jim , your an idiot. As for you fans who think you know braves history , did you know Bobby Cox had the opportunity to trade for Barry Bonds in his prime , not once but twice. I’m talking about the five tool pre-steroid Barry Bonds who could run , throw and hit. Cox is the guy who ignored his scouts and let Frank Thomas get away in the 1989 draft , anybody remember Tyler Houston ? Thats the guy Cox wanted when his scouts were all for drafting Thomas. I like Cox , I really do , but 14 playoff appearances and one world championship doesnt cut it. Cox has let 2 hall of famers get away , lost 4 world series , lost 4 N.L. championships and didnt get out of the first round of the playoffs 6 times. That is called a dynasty that got away due to major underachievement in the playoffs.
By BarryJ
June 27, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this
“…Cox is the guy who ignored his scouts and let Frank Thomas get away in the 1989 draft , anybody remember Tyler Houston ? Thats the guy Cox wanted when his scouts were all for drafting Thomas….”
I didn’t know that!!! I certainly remember drafting Houston (and we had our share of high pick busts as well…Kelly comes to mind as well).
Houston instead of Thomas…I recant my earlier statement on putting Cox upstairs as GM…It’s time to retire, Bobby.
This team is unwatchable. Giles makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. So does LaRoche. So does Langerhans. So does Chipper. So does…well, practically everyone…They’re not even lovable losers.
By buckny
June 27, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this
First off, is this the columnist that got caught up in the Braves 2-0 lead and embarassed himself with that column in 1996? I thought it was Furman Bisher. Doesn’t matter. Read sports “journalists” around the country, they are nothing bu homers and front runners. Doesn’t make a difference where they write, its the same tripe for the most part. I am a Yankee fan and have to take exception to the criticism of Bobby Cox. Players win games, managers stay out of the way by putting players in the position to win. Look carefully at the 1996 World Series, especially Game 5. Torre outmanaged Cox? Take a closer look. (1)Torre lets Andy Pettite bat in the top of the 9th with runners in scoring position and a 1 run lead. Questionable strategy? I think its open to debate but Torre wanted left handed Pettite to start the 9th against Chipper Jones (who I guess was more dangerous left handed), and then McGriff. What happens? Batting righty, Chipper gets a leadoff double. (2)With the go ahead runner on third and 2 outs, Torre elects to intentionally walk the GO AHEAD run to first base. Since Bucky Harris made that move in the 1947 World Series and eventually lost the game, managers have been very hesitant to put the go ahead run on base in the 9th. (3)Torre has a right fielder (Paul O’Neill) with a torn hamstring. He is playing in the 9th inning of a one run game and a left batter (Polonia) is coming up. So what happens? Polonia hits a high line drive to RCF that a gimpy Paul O’Neill barely catches up to with his arm fully extended as he reaches the warning track.
Lets say O’Neill misses that ball by a foot. What happens then? Torre had let Pettite bat in the 9th instead of using his very deep bench to pinch hit with a better chance to extend his lead and then start the 9th with the AL’s best closer. His reasoning was that he wanted to keep Chipper Jones hitting righty. Chipper doubles leading off in a one-run game. And if the line drive by Polonia eludes O’Neill, everyone in the media would have been ripping Torre for having a gimpy fielder playing in a one run World Series game. And everyone in the media would have been thinking about that as the winning run scored, a base runner put on by an intentional walk! Players win and lose games, not managers. The 1996 Yankees made the plays in the Series, the Brave players didn’t. It is not because of Cx’s ineptitude or Torre’s genius. Frmer Braves Hall of Fame pitcher Waren Spahn summed up managers best: he played for Casey Stengel twice, in 1942 with the Boston Braves and in 1965 with the Mets. His quote was “I played for Casey Stengel before and after he was a genius.”
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this
life never ceases to amaze me…. finally someone with some common sense… and it’s a yankee fan no less….. oh ya…they actually know their sports up north…
By Steve
June 27, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
Hey Head Coach,
WAKE UP! “Jim , your an idiot. As for you fans who think you know braves history , did you know Bobby Cox had the opportunity to trade for Barry Bonds in his prime , not once but twice. I’m talking about the five tool pre-steroid Barry Bonds who could run , throw and hit. “
In case you didn’t know, we DID trade for Barry Bonds. JS was 15 minutes from announcing it when the Pirates called and said Jim Leyland had vetoed the deal. Has our front office made mistakes in the past 15 years? OH yeah, but don’t sit here and waste our time with lies. Why don’t you focus on some of the unmitigated successes - bringing in Maddux, McGriff, Galarraga, Sheffield, etc.
One season doesn’t mean we should crucify the front office. NExt year’s rotation of Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez, James/Davies will probably be the best in baseball. Name me one other team with a better 5th starter!
By chopthis
June 27, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this
It’s true. Most of you Cox bashers ARE idiots. You don’t have to go back to ‘96; just look back to last October. The Braves PLAYERS had 18 innings’ worth of chances to beat the Astros in Game 4 of the Division Series and force a Game 5. The Braves PLAYERS choked away every opportunity. Yet after it’s over, you short-sighted morons forget all that and jump all over the most convenient target — the manager.
I only wish Francisco Cabrera had failed to come through or that Sid Bream had been thrown out at the plate. Then you geniuses could have spent the past 14 years trashing the manager about that game, too, instead of leaving your mothers’ houses every Oct. 17 and gathering in the parking lot of The Ted to commemmorate it.
Buckny is absolutely right. Managers make moves in the interest of giving their team its best chance to win. Most will work; some will not. When they work, the manager is a genius. When they don’t, fair-weather fans are right there to howl and moan.
There’s no question that, good as he is, Cox has made some mistakes over the years. But if the Braves had always played as well in October as Bobby Cox has managed, you’d have several world titles to crow about. Of course, Bobby Cox already has given you morons one more title than you deserve. What you Cox bashers truly deserve is to have Russ Nixon back at the helm.
By Franklins Tower
June 27, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this
honest abe- I have been calling for the removal of Cox since 2000. He is a good manager for getting to the postseason but his tactics fail in October. The manager’s job is to prepare the players for the games and Cox simply does a poor job of this when it counts. I- as a paying fan- could care less if the Braves ever win another division as the ultimate title- a World Series ring- is what every ballplayer and fan really wants. Arthur Blank after purchasing the Falcons made it clear to fans that the team’s only goal is to win the Superbowl. Fans are onboard and the Dome will continue to sell out.
buckny- you can create “what if” scenarios for every game ever played. You know as well as I that Cox would have been long gone if he managed the Yankees to the same postseason failures as the Braves. To my point, even Torre’s job has been questioned multiple times over the last 5 years and he carries 4 rings from the 90’s. Fact is that Cox exceeded the level of his players’ talent only one year- last year. Most other years he managed to or under the level.
By Mississippi Half Step
June 27, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
“Chopthis” Thanks for telling me what I should get from spending my hardearned money at Turner Field. You should apply to be the Braves’ PR Director. Telling the customer what they want versus asking them is always a successful sales strategy. LOL
By chopthis
June 27, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
Mississippi Half Step,
Go brush your tooth. Your (male) cousin wants a nooner.
By mart
June 27, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this
I was about to suggest that the Braves woes would end if only Chipper would go back on steroids (or “human growth hormone”) but then it occurred to me that the Braves playoff record in the Chipper steroid era wasn’t any better than it is now.
By Jim
June 27, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this
Head Coach - You can call me an idiot, but I’m not the guy suggesting Ron Gant squeeze w/ runners on 2nd and 3rd w/ nobody out in game 7 of a WS w/ the infield drawn in. How many successful bunts had Ron laid down that season?
My beef w/ your contention that Cox is to blame for the WS shortcomings is that you let the players off the hook. They need to shoulder the larger share of the blame.
The only player the Braves ever had who had the nuts to do it in the postseason is Dave Justice. I think we need to ask why he didn’t remain w/ the team. Or we can ask why they never spent money on a decent closer, but made trades at the end of the year for retreads like Reardon.
By BirdDawg
June 27, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is an idiot.
If he had managed in any other city which has media which kiss is @$$ on a daily basis, he’d have had real heat on his shoulders for his always dubious postseason performances.
He is constantly out-classed when it matters the most. I’m sick and tired of you apologists who blame the players when we lose and praise Bobby the Boob when we win.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too, hypocrites.
Bobby Cox should have been fired after 1996, or 1997, or especially after the 1998 debacle in the NLCS.
He is the absolute worst postseason manager in the history of baseball. He isn’t a winner. He’s a loser. His postseason winning percentage is terrible.
He needs to go. Now.
Man, too bad he didn’t retire after this last year. We might have been able to get Joe Girardi. Look how he has those kids playing down there. And he isn’t afraid to sit anyone who’s stopped listening to the hitting coach (hello Giles, Francour, and CockRoach). He isn’t afraid to play his best players, even over veterans (hello, Betemit).
Bobby Cox has killed this baseball team. He needs to go and go now.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this
I see Steve doesnt know his Braves history either. Let me educate you too. In 1988 the Pirates were trying to trade Bonds , they offered him straight up for Andres Thomas. Cox wanted to add a minor league outfielder in the Pirates system(Andy Van Slyke)in the trade. The Pirates then wanted Zane Smith and Andres Thomas for Bonds and Van Slyke. The trade fell through when Cox nixed the deal. Its a no brainer of a trade today , but Smith was a lefty who had just won 15 games and Andres Thomas was considered the second best SS behind Barry Larkin at the time. If Cox had pulled the trigger the first time Jimmy Leyland would not have the opportunity to screw the Braves in the second trade. I mean can anyone imagine a lineup of Van Slyke ,Bonds , Frank Thomas , Justice , Gant , Pendleton and the rest with all that pitching too boot. They would have won four or five championships.
By PoliticalMan
June 27, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
There is no such thing as post-season strategy. A team is built to do things necessary to win games from start to finish. A team that can’t do the small things during the season cannot turn it on in the post-season.
The Braves have through the yrs opted for great pitching and the homerun. That makes for a fragile team, especially when the competition gets tougher. The construction of the team is the responsibility of the GM and manager. Cox can’t play small ball in the post-season because his team can’t do it, nor does he want to. So who’s to blame? You can’t squeeze blood out of a turnip.
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
birddawg your critiscm reaffirms my position that cox bashers are in the mentally handicapped group…considering you are perceived by everyone on every blog you post on, as a joke…….
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this
Braves will never trade Chipper Jones and he needs to go. No trade, then make him a pinch hitter. If you going to lose, lose with the young guys you have. After all they are our future.
Chipper,Jordon,Remlinger and the other retreads,should not be playing key roles and more.
Stop trading away all your future for the over the hill gang. Rememeber when you started winning games, you went to the minors and brought up the young guys. They lost many games at first and then started winning.
There is no up side to the old guys, but there is with the younger ones. Play Wilson at third. Just trade Giles,Jones,Laroach,Jordon for a leadoff man.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this
Ji m , the one constant during the 14 year run has been Bobby Cox. They have an annual turnover of 8-10 players during the offseason , the players are different every post-season yet the results are what the are. Cox has been the one constant in the dugout and you want to give him credit for one world championship and blame the players for losing the other four? your nuts.
By chopthis
June 27, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this
Head Coach,
Not that your lame post warrants a response, but it is full of lies. Andy Van Slyke came up in the Cardinals organization in the early 1980s. He already was an established major leaguer with the Pirates by 1988. In fact, he hit .293 with 21 HR and 82 RBIs in 1987 and was incredibly talented defensively. There’s no way in hell Bobby Cox could have expected him to be a “throw-in” in a deal for Bonds.
If you have to invent wild trade scenarios over which to criticize Cox, maybe it’s because you don’t have a leg to stand on in reality.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this
Ok , Maybe I was wrong about the the minor league thing , but yea Van Slyke and Bonds were on the table. Chopthis why dont you add something to this blog instead of trying to tear down other knowledgeable bloggers with your negative no nothing attitude.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
I’ve kept up with the Braves, since I use to sit on the porch and listen to them on the radio with a old man next door back in 1969. I asked him once how could he just listen to a game and not see it. He said just listen and then you can see it as if you where there.
I would read everything coming down the pipe about the Braves I could get my hands on. Early spring training was a must for me, for I wanted to see what was coming up from the minors, or what big name they have traded for or got through free agant market.
I don’t see to much of that stuff going on here now. The Braves are training away to much of their prizes farm hands for over the hill players.
They are keeping player because they once did great things. They should not be holding back their younger players for the over the hill gang like Jordon and Chipper.
I Thought they wouls have learn their lesson when they traded Rick Behenna, Brook Jacoby,and Bret Jones for a hover the hill pitcher. A over the hill pitcher with the only one no-hitter a long time before the trade. The trade was with Cleveland. Pitcher named Lem Barker.
That was trade one. Trade two was with the same team, where they gave away Justice because he was making to much money. The trade for Kenny Lofton, Remlinger and another pitcher for Justice. Or you can say nothing for Justice.
Bet you they won’t trade Chipper Jones, and he is making far to much money for what he is doing on the field.
By BirdDawg
June 27, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this
If I’m the joke, Abe, then you’re the punchline.
By chopthis
June 27, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this
I’d say the negative ones on this blog are those who want to fire a hall-of-fame manager the first season things don’t break their team’s way.
And that’s “know-nothing attitude,” idiot.
See? Now THAT’S negativity. Learn the difference.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
OMG , not the Len Barker trade. That brings back nightmares , Brook Jacoby went on to have a decent career with the Indians and Brett Butler was one of the best leadoff hitters of his era.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this
Bobby is the main cause of all this stuff. Players loves him to much. You got to break a few eggs to make a omlet. In other words shakes thing up. Sit Chipper down, would be a great start.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this
Um ,Fire a hall of fame manager ? Moron , he aint in the hall of fame yet and he has already BEEN FIRED as the manager and tell me when and who replaced him ? you got five minutes chopthis.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this
Head Coach you know the deal I see. Do you think they will ever sit Chipper down and play Wilson?
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this
Wilson can play second or short , its more likely he will end up playing second once Giles is gone.
By BirdDawg
June 27, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this
I wanted him fired after 1996, when he single-handidly lost the World Series.
I wanted him fired after 1997.
And I especially wanted him fired after 1998.
In any other town, Cox would have been fired by 1998 at the least.
And the club has been on a downturn since then.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this
Head Coach, what should be done with Chipper, being that he is on the way down?
By honest abe
June 27, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this
have mercy…head coach you can rag on bobby all you want but if he were to retire today he’d be a shoo in for the hall…. BELIEVE THAT!
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this
Chipper isnt going anywhere , he will be playing 3B until Cox thinks otherwise or when his contract is up. Since Chopthis obviously doesnt know the answer to my question , here it is. Cox was fired after the 1981 season. Joe Torre was hired and they won the division in 1982.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this
It is time for Bobby to go. The Braves needs a coach that that will push a few buttons, kick some a*, when need be. Stop patting on the head and saying there is always tomorrow. Because tomorrow they do the same thing as in nothing. Besides tomorrow is today. Make some moves, show us fans he is trying everything possible.
By BirdDawg
June 27, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
Chipper cannot be traded, unless he allows himself to be traded.
He has the veteran’s exemption.
There are only two teams I can see Chipper allowing himself to be traded to: Houston or Texas. And that is because of his ranch.
Neither team has any real need for his services. Texas might have, but Chipper is suspiciously lost his power and bat speed. He also showed up to spring with about 20 lbs off of his frame.
Sounds rather like some other stars from the last few years. Pudge. Palmeiro. Sosa. Bonds.
I don’t know why no one else has made the connection. It’s the only thing that makes sense. It explains his rather sudden rash of injuries the last few years. It explains his loss of weight and drop in power and batspeed.
Chipper used. And looking at Giles now, I’m thinking he wasn’t the only one.
I’m not going to say that about Andruw, because that fat boy has never met a gym, but Chipper and Giles? Juicers.
Add the fact that they’re off the juice now, combined with Bobby the Boob’s senility and poor managerial skills, it’s no wonder the Braves are in the tank.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this
I agree with you Abe , he is a shoe in for the Hall of Fame. He is the greatest regular season manager in the history of the game(tounge in cheek).He should retire next season when his contract is up , write a book and start working on his Hall of Fame acceptance speech.
By The Bo
June 27, 2006 03:46 PM | Link to this
Oh well Braves Fans, we are in for some down years. The Braves should not be built around Chipper. Taking a look at the RBI totals for the year, if there is not high octane gas poured on Chipper, he won’t get 75 RBIs. At lease move him out of the third spot. Move Jeff there to the third spot, maybe Andrew Jones can get him some better pitches to hit.
By Mississippi Half Step
June 27, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this
Doesn’t take a genius to recognize that honest abe and chopthis are one in the same. It’s his way of speaking louder for the minority position he holds.
By Head Coach
June 27, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this
I agree with you Bo , but Chippers contract says otherwise. Francoeur is a five tool talent with enormous upside. However , he would be a disaster in the third hole. He leads the team in strikeouts with 64 and with 7 walks and a horrific .271 OBP he should actually be right where he is in the batting order. Jeff Francoeur has obviously been the best athlete on the field at every level of his baseball career until now. Its going to take another season or two before he blossoms into the superstar he is capable of being. By the way , the Braves offense has 588 strikeouts as a team , third worst behind the Marlins and Brewers. Misery loves company doesnt it ?
By Corey Wilbanks
June 27, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this
It’s time we start remembering the good ‘ol days and accept what lies ahead because it will be a long time before Braves baseball will be the joy to watch and follow that it has been since 1991. Yeah, their playoff record since ‘91 is 63-62. And, they won it all just once. But from ‘91-‘05 they went 1431-931 (.606 win pct.) during the regular season. Octobers were tough, but at least they made it there, and I would rather see them lose in the 1st round than watch a last place team (or a second place team for that matter). I will never forget those teams, players and summers no matter how bad October was. I mean, what if the Cubs were your team? Just one championship wouldn’t sound so bad then would it?
By CITYofdecatur
June 27, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this
In a superstitious game such as baseball your article after game 2 of the 1996 series was a jinxer. i still remember cringing upon reading it the first time. that first paragraph ain’t quite an apology though. say these words out loud I Was wRong.
By CITYofdecatur
June 27, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this
In a superstitious game such as baseball your article after game 2 of the 1996 series was a jinxer. i still remember cringing upon reading it the first time. that first paragraph ain’t quite an apology though. say these words out loud I Was wRong.
By CITYofdecatur
June 27, 2006 09:19 PM | Link to this
In a superstitious game such as baseball your article after game 2 of the 1996 series was a jinxer. i still remember cringing upon reading it the first time. that first paragraph ain’t quite an apology though. say these words out loud I Was wRong.