AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2006 > June > 19 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USChuck Tanner sees his hand in Braves success
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Terence Moore
Chuck Tanner? Among the key architects behind the Braves’ run of goodness through last season? To hear him tell it, the celebrated duo of John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox should be at least a trio. I mean, are pigs flying backward with tomahawks across their chests?
Could be. Given all of the plausible things that Tanner said with his legendary zeal over the telephone from his home in New Castle, Pa., maybe the world really is flat.
This is the same Tanner who managed Braves teams that were more brutal than the current one. They finished last during his first year in 1986, next-to-last the following season and then last after he was fired in May of 1988. Even so, there was that moment during the early 1990s after Tanner finished huffing and puffing with others in an old-timer’s game at Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. Tanner and his former teammates were discussing everything from their Braves of Milwaukee to the ones of the moment when somebody told Tanner that he was wanted by Ted Turner and Jane Fonda.
The way Tanner remembered it, sounding 77 years young, “Ted said, ‘I want a picture with the three of us,’ and then he turned to Jane and said, ‘This is the man right here who put this thing together, because he’s the one who talked about that we need pitching, pitching, pitching.’ Ted said, ‘I want a picture, because I want to keep this,’ and I never felt better.”
That’s opposed to how awful Tanner felt after he was kicked out of the job of his dreams by the guy that he helped become general manager.
Some guy named Bobby Cox.
Here’s the sequence: In October 1985, Turner paid huge bucks to hire the veteran Tanner to run the Braves after a 96-loss season. Two weeks later, Tanner got a call from Turner. “He said, ‘Hey, Chuck. If Bobby Cox wants to come home, would you mind?” said Tanner, referring to how Cox left to manage the Toronto Blue Jays to prominence after he was fired by Turner four years earlier. “If I would have said no, they wouldn’t have brought [Cox] back to Atlanta, but I said, ‘Nah. That’s fine. Heck, he’s a good guy.’”
Turner had another question for Tanner, something that hasn’t been mentioned publicly before. “Ted said to me, ‘So what do you want to be - the GM or the field manager?’” Tanner recalled. “I said, ‘To start with, I should be on the field. We’re going to have a tough time until we get this thing straightened out,’ and here’s what Ted told me: ‘If you ever want to change, you go ahead and change. You be the GM and let him go down to manage.’”
Cox eventually did “go down” to manage the Braves again, but that was in June of 1990, and he hasn’t left. In contrast, Tanner never managed again after nearly two decades that included a world championship with Pittsburgh’s “We are family” bunch and stints with the Chicago White Sox and Oakland Athletics.
Managing the Braves to glory was Tanner’s obsession, though, especially since he enjoyed his Atlanta years with the Crackers in the early 1950s. He also joined the Milwaukee Braves as a player with Hank Aaron and Eddie Mathews. Then came Tanner’s chance with a franchise that he mentioned from the start was “absolutely loaded with talent,” courtesy of former Braves scouting director Paul Snyder. Tanner helped it become even more promising by supporting the 1987 trade that sent Doyle Alexander to the Detroit Tigers for John Smoltz.
Thus Tanner’s seemingly outrageous prediction upon his arrival to town that there would be a parade down Peachtree for the Braves, sooner than later.
“Oh, we would have done it. There’s no question, because I saw everything that would happen,” said Tanner, who works on special projects for the Cleveland Indians that involve little travel from Pittsburgh, where he takes care of his ailing wife. “I don’t know if we would have won 14 divisions, but I’m positive we would have won, because I had my ideas.”
Then Tanner sighed, adding, “Yeah, my heart was hurt when I was fired, because I knew. Just like I know that, even though [the Braves] are having it rough now, they still have a good base of talent to be contenders for many years.”
Well, he was right before.
Permalink | Comments (91) | Post your comment | Categories: Braves / MLB, Terence Moore
Comments
By nathan
June 19, 2006 07:59 PM | Link to this
I’ve said it before, Tanner Managed the “young” braves when they were lousy, but had to have somthing to do with the development of Glavine, Smoltz, Gant, Avery, etc….
JS gets WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT for “building” the 1991 team. Essentially all he did was add 3 veterans (TP, Bream, Belliard) to play defense behind an up and coming pitching staff. He had nothing to do with drafting Glavine, Gant or Avery, and certainly nothing to do Trading for Smoltz.
As far as the other moves that he made throughout the 90’s? Let’s take a look at them with comments in parenthasis.
Signing Greg Maddux. (NO BRAINER = as long as Ted said OK - why wouldn’t you sign him if you were GM?)
PS: in the offseason before he failed to TRADE for Barry Bonds and only “settled” for Maddux after he lost out to the Giants when Bonds was a FA.
Trading for McGriff: (Again, NO BRAINER - as long as the Padres were STUPID enough to take Melvin Nieves - Why Not?)
During 1994 Strike shortened year - Traded Deion Sanders for Roberto Kelly - Yeah that worked out well, didn’t it?
Trading Tony Tarasco for Marquis Grissom: Again, NO BRAINER with the Expos in full “firesale” mode
Trading for Denny Neagle: (This was a NO BRAINER at the time. Neagle was very serviceable for a couple of years - other than not hanging onto a 6 to 0 lead in game 3 of 1996 WS, Schmidt went on to be pretty dominating, but he can’t stay healthy either & Ron Wright never ammounted to squat!)
Kenny Lofton for Grissom & Justice: (Looked like it was going to work out fine until Lofton got hurt and couldn’t run. I would’ve rather kept the CLUTCH POST SEASON HITTING of Grissom - Justice had to go, because he couldn’t stay healthy anyways.)
Same week of above trade, Jermaine Dye for Michael Tucker & Keith Lockhart: (Probably a wash. It looks lopsided now, but Dye hasn’t been able to stay on the field very much.)
Trading McGriff & Signing The Big Cat: (pretty good move, but again signing Big Name Free Agents isn’t very creative if you have the cash to do it.)
Neagle for Bret Boone: (Nice move, though Boone was about worthless in the post season. In other words, he fit right in)
Boone & Klesko for Reggie Sanders and Quilvio Veras: (This is a move that looked real good when it happened. Trading Power for Speed. Unfortunately, Veras was cut in midseason - Giles was called up - and Sanders was hurt - I believe he pulled a hammy in week 1? - and couldn’t run all year. In the mean time, Klesko and Boone LIGHT IT UP for the Padres.)
Trading Brian Jordan and Odalis Perez for Sheffield: (Put this one in the NO BRAINER category also - though it might be nice to have Perez on this staff - since BJ is back! LOL)
Trading Millwood for Estrada: (This won worked out well for both sides….nice trade)
There has been a few Good moves that had some “creative” thinking behind them, that worked out well: (John Burkett, Dennis Martinez, Jaret Wright, Chris Hammond, JD Drew, Ligtenburg etc….)
But for every move that seemed to be genius, there are some head scratchers as well: (Rico Brogna, Raul Mondesi, Chris Reitsma, Dan Kolb, and many other bullpen failures - though most of the time those are early season “stopgaps” until they sort out who can be “useful” from the minors. Except for this year, they apparently are comfortable with who’s up here!)
So what I’m getting at, especially to all of you “Yankees have The Boss’ Checkbook Roster” people. JS had Ted’s Checkbook for the better part of a Decade, and used it to RAPE other GM’s that were desperate to unlode players. So for everybody that says the Braves could win the WS if the Payroll was raised…….Sorry to tell ya! We had HIGH payroll all through the 90’s and CHOKED BIG TIME!
Players that want to play hard and correct win world series rings, not the wons with the biggest contracts
By nathan
June 19, 2006 08:23 PM | Link to this
obviously in the last sentence of the above post “wons” should be spelled ones. I guess that’s what happens when your keyboard is smoking from too much typing! LOL
By Jeff
June 19, 2006 08:35 PM | Link to this
Actually the game that Neagle blew in the 1996 WS was Game 4 and I credit that loss more to the poor decision making of Cox (removing Mike Bilecki in the 8th inning after totally dominating hitters…in comes Wohlers and his beach ball slider to Lehritz). Game 3 was the game that Glavine lost to David Cone.
I think it may be a blessing in disguise that the Braves finally go though a few struggling years. They need a major shake-up. I’ve been saying for years.
By Jim Ragan
June 19, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this
I agree with you Jeff-Bielecki was brought into the 7th of Game 4 with the bases loaded, no outs and a 6-3 lead, and he proceeds to get three outs with no more runs scoring. Leave him in another inning, THEN bring Wohlers in the 9th to close it out, and very likely we would have never had the Leyritz legend. Cox TOTALLY bungled that all up and very likely, that blown game set the stage for the Braves misfortunes in the playoffs forever, and helped charter the course for the Yanks 4 World Series titles in a five-year span.
By nathan
June 19, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this
sorry about the “wrong” call on game 4 instead of game 3. Now I’m even more mad, I had forgot that we had a 3-0 lead in the series!!! LOL.
But I agree…..time for some changes. I realize, that I dwell on all of “negatives”. But it’s what I’m programmed to do after 25 years of Braves Baseball! LOL. Here’s to 1995!
PS….Aren’t most of our playoff losses attributed to poor Bobby Cox decisions?
By nathan
June 19, 2006 09:05 PM | Link to this
Hey guys, was game five that year the 1-0 loss with Smoltz on the mound? (maybe it wasn’t 1-0 but I’m sure it was a one run loss) Was that the game where Dye ran in fromt of Grissom on the fly ball that was dropped and that lead to a run?
Just trying to “refresh” Bad Memories, I guess! LOL
By nathan
June 19, 2006 09:09 PM | Link to this
Also, without rambling, I should correct my statement to say 25 years of Post Season failures. (I know 1982 wasn’t 25 years ago, but I’ve been a fan for about 25 years) The last 14 regular season’s have been pretty dard good ball to watch!
By Mr. Slave
June 19, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this
I agree, Tanner should get some credit. He is a smart baseball man and his Braves teams were significantly lacking talent; so he doesn’t deserve to be faulted for their poor play. If he was the one who planted the “we need pitching” seed then he definately deserves some credit. Pitching is what the Braves success has been based on.
Bobby Cox as G.M. deserves credit also. He is the one who helped build their farm system after all and aquired a lot of the young talent. I don’t believe the firing of Tanner and Cox naming himself manager at the time it happened was a coincidence though. Any body who followed the Braves closley saw that the pitching was just a season away from being dominant. Cox knew it and wanted to be the one to manage them.
Shurholtz deserves credit for a lot of the players he brought in and getting rid of the ones who were bad influences. Was it a coincidence Boone started hitting after he left or was it steroids? The Braves are one of the few succesful teams not mired in the shadow of the steroids/THG controversey.
No I don’t beleive payroll is the reason the Braves haven’t won more World Series titles but money has something to do with it. All the years when the Braves were just one player away from winning it all, mainly a closer, the Braves would not pay the extra couple of million or part with a prospect or two in order to acquire one. Instead they used guys like Berringer or Pena who they could get on the cheap. Unfortunately they got what they paid for.
That being said, Cox and Shurholtz have done a great job and I wouldn’t trade the past 14 years and the World Series title for anything. Not many teams can boast that kind of success so they must have been doing way more right than wrong.
By Moody
June 19, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this
Tanner’s comments bring to mind an old quote I will never forget—“The past remembers better than it was.” Tanner was horrible in Atlanta. The idea that he helped build the organization is a joke.
By Bob
June 19, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this
Here’s what I don’t understand…JS is not a good GM because in ‘91 he came in and added just 3 veterans to take a team from worst to first. He then makes moves for the next 14 years that are no brainers (Maddux, Grissom, McGriff, etc.). I’m sorry, but some of those moves were pretty slick. He still managed to trade for McGriff while not giving up anything of substance. And as I recall, Veras also made it through at least one season with Atlanta before being let go halfway through the season.
In the time that JS has been in charge of the Braves, there have been other GM’s who have come in and built teams using huge payrolls for a year or two, and then watch them collapse soon afterwards. The fact that he was able to MAINTAIN not only a winning team, but a quality farm system says something about what he’s capable of. The Yankees can’t improve their team because their farm system has been wiped out by Cashman’s trades for the major league squad. So just back down off your soap box and come back to me when you can find a GM or organization over the same period of time who has been successful at putting a quality team out there on the field and having a farm system that you can use to trade for players to help out the major league squad.
By Paul
June 19, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this
In response to a previous comment… Tanner might have been managing when the Braves drafted Steve Avery, but either Russ Nixon was on his way out or Bobby Cox had just taken the helm on the field when Avery made his Atlanta debut.
Otherwise, you’re right. The young guys like Lemke, Blauser, Gant, Glavine, and Smoltz were rookies under Tanner and his coaching staff, and the Braves streak owes a little something to Tanner for that.
That said, I don’t think Tanner had much to do with the Braves’ success throughout most of the streak. Sure, he helped build a solid foundation, but to sustain it was something else that he was never a part of.
By Jim Ragan
June 19, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this
Yes, Nathan, you are correct. The Yanks won Game 5 1-0 that featured Andy Pettite vs. John Smoltz. Yes, I believe Dye ran in front of Grissom that led to the only run.
By Skydawg
June 19, 2006 11:01 PM | Link to this
If’s, But’s, Candies and nuts. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Yada, yada, yada. We can all sit here and talk about the past and worry about the season gone wrong. But I tell you what people, if we don’t start making some noise and boycott this current sale with Liberty Media, things are gonna get much worse FAST!! I think we as fans need to be very vocal, that unless a local entity purchases the Braves, we will not support them. You think the purse strings are tight now. Wait until the Braves are owned by a company that has already stated that it wants to purchase the Braves in large part to being a tax right-off in exchange for stocks. Who wants to start the petition??
By ronald
June 19, 2006 11:13 PM | Link to this
Hey, does anyone remember Eddie Haas?
By Tony Almeida
June 19, 2006 11:15 PM | Link to this
I like a big bean burrito every once in a while.
By Jamie
June 19, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this
To Nathan, If everything that you have noted John Schuerholz doing were nno brainers, then why haven’t all GM’s had any type of success comparable to JS’s, since they would have had the ability to hammer out remarkable trades?
And JS never failed to trade for Bonds, the trade was actually completed then backed out of by the Pirates the morning after before it could be announced.
Also, JS has and has always given Bobby Cox tons and tons of credit for the aquisitions and development of Glavine, Smoltz, Gant, and Avery. But JS also has had the ability to make great transactions and aquire the players we needed in years past. Sure, he hasn’t had a 100% success rate with the players that he has brought in, but who has?
To put most or all of the blame on JS for the Braves only winning 1 World Series is wrong, because I do admmit that he hasn’t been perfect, but he has no control of the gameplay on the field, such as earlier mentioned managing mistakes in the World Series.
By Mony
June 20, 2006 12:40 AM | Link to this
The Braves have been great as long as Bobby Cox has had anything to do with them. JS has been a big asset but the credit goes to Bobby and JS too,I guess. We should be thankful we have had them here in Atlanta. A lot of other major league cities would love to have had them or have them.
I went to their games when they were losers and still liked my Braves and have watched these winners for the last several years on TV and always will. Being as I can’t get the Birmingham Barons on TV any more.
By Bill Clyde
June 20, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this
Back to the surface of the article, it’s nice to see Tanner get some credit he may have been due all along, but his field record with the Braves speaks for itself—Bobby Cox has clearly been the better choice all along, as his talent is putting players in situations to succeed (with some glaring exceptions already mentioned, but he’s still been one of the best ever).
By bubbabaseball
June 20, 2006 01:50 AM | Link to this
Yes, Tanner deserves credit, but John S. and Bobby have done a marvelous jobs, and should go into the hall of fame.
By LA Brave
June 20, 2006 04:20 AM | Link to this
If ya’ll will remember it was a HUGE deal when Ted hired Chuck Tanner. HUGE. Tanner was a proven winner and it signaled to the city and to the young players that this organization was ready to start winning. Credit schmredit. Who knows? Who cares? At the very least Tanner was a symbol that Ted was ready to start winning.
By mart
June 20, 2006 07:52 AM | Link to this
Sorry, but my memory isn’t too bad. Chuck Tanner was a disaster as a baseball manager, especially, but not only, with the Braves. For the Braves to have gotten good they first had to get rid of him and his ilk. What’s tomorrow?—a story entitled, “Russ Nixon, Forgotten Hero,” or how about, “Dave Bristol, Unappreciated Genius.”
By Dave In Tampa
June 20, 2006 07:53 AM | Link to this
If Chuck Tanner had something to do with the Braves long run, then so did I… Go back to that rock you crawled out from Chucky!
By craig
June 20, 2006 08:09 AM | Link to this
Nathan you are an idiot. Without JS and Bobby Cox the Braves wouldn’t have won half of what the Braves have won. Sure, there are other factors besides the two of them that have created a winning franchise, but to discount what these two have done is pure stupidity. Hope your fantasy team is working out well for you. DORK.
By batrol
June 20, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this
Tanner taking credit for “supporting” the Smoltz/Alexander deal? That’s a joke. Who wouldn’t have made that deal? Unloading a grumpy old man from a last place team for a young stud-yeah let’s put Tanner up there with BC & JS. Why didn’t Tanner push trading Zane Smith when some teams were offering incredible deals? He was an awful manager. But his “Parade down Peachtree Street” commercials were a hoot.
By mike
June 20, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this
If JS and BC are about to retire I would love to see Dave Dombrowski come in to run the Braves. He has proven he a master at personel moves and is at least as slick as JS was at his best. Just dreaming though since we are not even sure who would make that decision. The Braves are truly in transition.
By mike
June 20, 2006 08:23 AM | Link to this
If JS and BC are about to retire I would love to see Dave Dombrowski come in to run the Braves. He has proven he a master at personel moves and is at least as slick as JS was at his best. Just dreaming though since we are not even sure who would make that decision. The Braves are truly in transition.
By 59bulldawg
June 20, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this
You’re absolutely right Skydawg! Things could get a whole lot worse unless we get a local owner. If fans think things are bad now just wait until we have an owner [Liberty] who unabashedly wants the Braves for tax write-off purposes. Nathan, you’re also correct in that players that play hard and correct win rings. However, sometimes it takes money to get those players. Take our bullpen for instance where we have been either unlucky in our bids for free agents or just plain reluctant to spend the money. With the exception of Smoltz, and Wohlers and Rocker before the latter two blew up, the Braves have consistently had bullpen problems. JS has tried to address the problem with retreads and cast-offs from other teams as well as minor league talent from our within our own system. For several years that strategy worked, just barely, through the regular season only to be exposed outright in the playoffs and/or World Series. This year, using the same strategy and with the addition of few key injuries, that strategy has resulted in the complete meltdown of the bullpen before the All-Star break. Folks it’s time for a new strategy. Perhaps there isn’t anyone on the market at present who can help us and I’m not necessarily advocating giving away talent for a temporary fix. But having an owner who loves the game, wants to win, and is willing to spend [within reason] is much preferable to one who owns the club simply as a tax write-off [Liberty]or one who is slow to make needed changes because of what it might do to the club’s value on the market (Time-Warner]. With that said, I think we need to unload a few of the big contracts and rebuild with the young talent we already have and the ones we could acquire through trades. As much as it would tear my heart out to lose him, I would love to see Smoltz pitch one more time in the World Series. Since it won’t be with us before he retires, perhaps with Detroit or Boston. You know all the division titles are great but getting to the World Series takes talent, heart, competent management, and a little luck. And when you get there you had better make the most of your opportunity to win because there’s no guarantee that you’ll ever get back. In the past 14 years no team, excepting the Yankees, has had more opportunities to win it all than our Atlanta Braves. Yet we have only one title to show for it. Yeah I know it’s one title more than some teams have but we all know they should have won more. We’re kind of at a fork in the road now and we can choose either to keep tinkering with the engine or completely overhaul it. All teams have their down years but the strategy of the future owners of the team will have much to say about how quickly this team will again be a contender. The Braves need to have local ownership and Bud [what a joke!] Selig and MLB needs to support it in the best interest of the game. Otherwise I’m with Skydawg in that fans need to stop going to games in order to make that point.
By Mark
June 20, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this
What a joke… Tanner taking credit for any part of the Braves’ success! He was god awful. Bobby Cox was the architect of the 14 year run and Schuerholz has been the guiding force behind it. Tanner is senile.
By Jimmy Etheridge
June 20, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this
Tanner is so full of s**t.
By Brent
June 20, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this
Nathan’s post is semi-ridiculous.
As soon as the Braves start losing, let’s go back and discredit what Schuerholz has done.
Look, getting guys like Bream and Pendleton to buy into the Atlanta concept was huge back in 1991, and helped to set the stage for an amazing run.
Nathan says that certain trades were “no brainers.” If they were such no brainers, then one would think that other GM’s would pull them off.
Schuerholz has been well known for bringing in talent in return for guys that didn’t pan out. That is a valuable asset to have, and explains a lot of our success.
No, he doesn’t get all the credit, but it seems silly to start ripping him up as soon as we go through a major slump.
Throw in the fact that Nathan thinks we led the 1996 WS 3 games to 0, and I really don’t have much reason to take him seriously.
By Jim J
June 20, 2006 09:43 AM | Link to this
I believe it is time the true architect of the Braves success was recognized. The real catalyst to the building of this dynasty was Chief Nocahoma. There are several pieces of video from Braves telecasts of the late 80s and early 90s showing the Chief strike his tom-tom just in time to wake up Tanner and Cox as they fell asleep in the dugout. It was that stupid FSU chant that crept in and drowned out the sound of his drums. After that, Cox fell asleep and has never woke up since.
By Lew
June 20, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this
Whatever.
By Lew
June 20, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this
Whatever.
By Lew
June 20, 2006 09:47 AM | Link to this
What I actually meant was-whatever, when will we hear from Russ Nixon and Joe Torre about how they are really responsible. Chuck Tanner was terrible.
By Elroy
June 20, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this
While we are remembering the beginning of the run, how about trading Murphy to the Phillies, getting Justice off of first, and into right. When he didn’t have to worry about his defense at first, he started hitting. Jeff Parrott, where are you?
By Jim J
June 20, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this
I believe it is time the true architect of the Braves success was recognized. The real catalyst to the building of this dynasty was Chief Nocahoma. There are several pieces of video from Braves telecasts of the late 80s and early 90s showing the Chief strike his tom-tom just in time to wake up Tanner and Cox as they fell asleep in the dugout. It was that stupid FSU chant that crept in and drowned out the sound of his drums. After that, Cox fell asleep and has never woke up since.
By CRM
June 20, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this
Does Chuck Tanner actually expect us to believe that he planted the seeds of Atlanta’s 14 year run of success by telling Ted Turner what every baseball man already knows? That pitching is the key to success. Does he expect us to believe that in all the years Ted had owned the team up to that time, no one else had told Ted that he absolutely had to build a winner with pitching? Since Bobby Cox had managed the Braves in the late 70s and early 80s and since the year after he was fired (1982) they went on to win the Western Division under Joe Torre, do you think its possible that the seeds may have actually been sown a little earlier? Just a thought.
By clint ellison
June 20, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this
Atlanta fans are so spoiled. I am old enough to remember the long, long years of losing in the 70s and 80s. We had no talent and no prospects of doing so. The farm system was a joke. Aside from Niekro, Murphy and a disinterested but talented Horner, we sucked big time.
Now, pay attention—-we get Liberty as an owner and we are gonna see those old days of constant losing return. The team will be slowly pared down to help the bottom line of the parent company and it will take years to climb out of that hole.
Where are ya, Ted? Where are ya, Arthur?
By Brent
June 20, 2006 10:24 AM | Link to this
“Atlanta fans are spoiled.”
Will someone please get me a price check on a new criticism?
By Brent
June 20, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this
“Atlanta fans are spoiled.”
Will someone please get me a price check on a new criticism?
“I remember when the Braves sucked.”
Gee, congratulations on living into your mid-20’s.
Is that Guinness I hear calling?
By Bobby
June 20, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this
Sometimes the moves that are not made are more important. Giving up prospects for veterans has a way of coming back and hurting later. JD Drew for one year helped win a division, but it cost us Wainwright in the bullpen for many years. Do we really want to mortgage the next five years for one year (or 3/4 of a year)? The truth is we have the players capable to win the division, they just are not performing.
By Jason S.
June 20, 2006 10:48 AM | Link to this
Is it just me, or is there something nostalgic about seeing the Braves this bad? It brings back the memories. I’m going to go find my “Go Braves … and take the Falcons with you!” bumper sticker.
By Alan
June 20, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
Everyone needs to get a grip on reality, including Chuck Tanner. Who really cares what Chuck Tanner says anyway? Here’s the deal: The Braves have sunk from first to last because their players have stunk the joint out. The starting pitchers have been fair - which isn’t good enough, particularly when they’re supposed to have “co-aces” (Hudson and Smoltz). Hudson, in particular, has been wildly inconsistent since he’s been in Atlanta. And now Smoltz is giving up way too many home runs, which tells me his fastball has lost some zip and his slider has lost some bite. The relievers are terrible - every single one of them - so bad that it doesn’t even matter who the closer is - the Braves haven’t had a shot at a save in 3 weeks! The “hitters” are striking out at an alarming rate, which is awful, but would be tolerable if they were hitting lots of home runs like the Braves did in the ’90s. Chipper seems to have lost all of his power and when was the last time Andruw hit a homer? Francouer and LaRoche (both of whom strike out way, way too often) are the only guys hitting home runs right now. Langerhans, who looked so good last year - especially in the second half, has practically disappeared offensively. Giles is an all-around disaster and probably the worst leadoff hitter in baseball. And the defense has not been good, either. The only guys who have performed consistently well are McCann and Renteria - and, frankly, Renteria is not nearly as good as Furcal at shortstop. The Braves miss Furcal much more than they’ll ever admit, on offense and on defense. There’s no way to fix this season - unless all of these under-performers start to perform - and somehow the bullpen gets a whole bunch of new arms. It’s really sad to see what’s happening. However, not all is lost by any means. There still is a strong nucleus of good veterans and young players with plenty of talent. As soon as they’re healthy, I’d get Davies and James back into the rotation and I’d ship Sosa and Thomson to the bullpen. I’d also try to acquire a speedy leadoff hitter (Juan Pierre perhaps) and a veteran closer (Joe Nathan would be ideal). Failing that, I’d sit back and suffer and wait ‘til next year.
By braves fan
June 20, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this
Chuck Tanner was fired in May of 1988, three years removed from the winning season of 1991. He managed the Braves from 1986 to May 1988, so he would have only had influence over players who played in that 2+ seasons. Near as I can tell, the only player of consequence who played during Tanner’s tenure is Tom Glavine. And he made 9 appearances in 1987, and probably less than 10 starts in 1988 before Tanner was fired. You’re going to tell me that in less than 20 games, Tanner made Tom Glavine a HOF pitcher? That’s laughable. By this kind of logic, one would have to grant Russ Nixon more credit for Glavine’s success than Tanner. And I think the answer to that is a resounding HELL NO. I think Glavine himself deserves the credit for his abilities, and Mazzone and Cox for helping him harness it. And “supported” the Smoltz-Alexander trade? Okay, I don’t want to hear anything about his involvement in that, unless he was the guy scouting Smoltz or was the guy taking the call from Detroit saying, “yeah we’ll give you Alexander if you give us Smoltz.” Cox and the minor league scouts are the only ones who can take credit for that deal. So the home grown players that made an impact on 1991 were mostly the work of Cox. And then Schuerholtz was the guy who built on the existing pitching depth, by saying good pitcher’s need good fielders. Thus adding Pendleton, Belliard and Bream. The mixture was golden. And winning breeds winning. Remember, Bobby Cox had success at every level, every stop along the way as a manager. And Schuerholtz built a winning organization in Kansas City before he came to Atlanta. So for a manager who lost 89 and 92 games, and managed two months of a season that ended with 102 losses to say he deserves credit for the work of career winners like Cox and Schuerholtz, and the wonderful scouting and development dept’s is an absolute mockery. Maybe he could see the good things that were going to happen, but that doesn’t mean he made any of it happen. I’d be laughing my a$$ off if I weren’t so stunned by the ridiculousness of it all.
By Brent
June 20, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
There was an article in the Wall Street Journal that ran the 1st day of the 1996 play-offs.
In that article, Bobby Cox was quoted as saying that he signed Doyle Alexander with the express purpose of trading him to a contender late in the season.
I’m glad that Chuck Tanner didn’t get in the way :).
By nathan
June 20, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
Craig, I don’t play fantasy baseball….complete waste of time for 12 year olds. I’m an idiot?
Yeah, that’s right, I’m SOOOOOOO stupid, that I believe that without 3 HOF pitchers going to the mound every 5th day from 1993 until recently, Bobby would’ve “won” all of those titles for the Braves all by his pure genius self. You might as well say that the HOF pitchers started in 1991 anyhow, because for 1991 and 1992 Steve Avery was lights out and looked like he was going to have the best career out of the 3.
If Cox is such a GOD, how come he didn’t do so well the first time around with the Braves?
Listen, I’m not saying that he sucks (sometimes I say that. LOL), but in general, I’m not saying he’s completely worthless. But honestly, I mean really, Is John Macnamara soley responsible for Roger Clemens being what he is today, just because he mangaged him at some point. Wow that must mean that Jim Leyland molded Barry Bonds into what he became (before steroids). Boy that Lou Pinella sure did a good job making Griffey Jr, Randy Johnson and AROD into superstars. Good thing Tommy Lasorda was the manager of the Dodgers in 1988 or Gibson NEVER woulda hit that homer. Oh, what’s that…..Lasorda didn’t actually swing the bat in that game. Oh, sombody with natural talent actually did that. I could keep going if you would like me to!
I realize that by the same token of what I’ve stated above, that means that the PLAYERS are responsible for the playoff CHOKES more than Cox is. And for the most part I believe this is the case most of the time. A manager manages the game. He doesn’t swing the stick, throw the ball, catch the ball, give effort, hustle.
But when lack of fundamentals are occuring, that is a direct reflection on coaching staffs. So either, he aint teaching it to this bunch of kids, (I don’t believe that’s the case), or JS misjudged the talent/motivation of this particular group. So either way one of them has to be held somewhat accountable. By not making moves or doing somthing to show that they won’t stand for no BS, well, that’s just bad decision making.
Who knows, maybe they come back, win the wild card or maybe even win the East. Then I will owe Bobby and you an appology. But I seriously doubt that that will happen.
I also realize that my criticism of JS may seam UNFAIR.
I’m not saying he is a bad GM. He’s far from that. I’m just saying he never “gambled” any of his trades. He always traded away somebody who was touted as the next great thing (ala: Ron Wright, Tarasco, O Perez, Nieves etc…). Hey if the other GM’s were too stupid to have their own scouts give them information saying that these guys were worth the moves, kudos to JS for “stealing” from the poor. You know…..had he gambled in 1992 or 1993 (don’t remember the year) and traded Justice for Griffey Jr. (I think that was rumored at one point), and that had worked out. Hey, good job. Way to snuff that one out. But essentially the only trades that could be considered “risky” were the Grissom & Justice for Lofton. And Klesko & Boone for Veras, Sanders (was Joyner a throw in on that one?). Every other trade was teams firesales (Montreal - Grissom, San Diego - McGriff, Pittsburg - Neagle) or players “demanding” to be traded (Los Angeles - Sheffield)
So in 1993 does Cox and JS deserve all of the credit because a player with better talent (McGriff over Bream) came in and saved the day? He deserves credit for making the move - though any GM makes that trade in a heartbeat. Not to mention the fact that if Melvin Nieves got that deal done, that tells me that no other GM was offering anything
I get that the Braves have had an AMAZING run of success in the REGULAR SEASON for 14-15 years. But this goes for every team out there. Who’s to credit? Players? Manager? GM?….I’m not sure if there is a definite answer. But, if you give ALL the credit to the Manager & GM, then they deserve all of the credit when it goes wrong. If you think the players deserve the credit for winning, well you better back of Bobby and JS and put the blame where it belongs on the players.
So I hope this post suck every bit of intelligence right out of your melon, Craig. That way you can be an idiot like me, and we can see eye to eye (or keyboard to keyboard!)
Good Day to you sir!
By nathan
June 20, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this
braves fan…..
I’m not going to begin to say that Tanner is “completely responsible” for building the team in 91. But you are claiming he NO involvement.
Do you really think that GM’s don’t consult with who they’ve hired to run things on the field before they draft or sign players? You realize that by saying yes to that question you are essentially saying that Bobby has ZERO involvement in what decisions JS makes. I think that most managers and GM’s work “hand in hand” when drafting and making decisions in the off season. But I could be way off.
Other than that, you have great points.
By Ken
June 20, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
The only thing I remember about Chuck Tanner is being at Fulton County Stadium and seeing a kid go up to Tanner and ask for an autograph and Tanner told him, “Get away from me, can’t you see I am talking to somebody.” He could be the greatest manager in history, but to me he will always be a butthole. Contrast that to Cox: I was at Fuji film day in 2003, Cox was in the dugout and a young man about 16 went in to take a picture with Cox. He was not supposed to be in the dugout and was immediately snatched by security. Cox then told the guard to let him go and came out of the dugout to allow the boy his picture.
By Twilb Dawg
June 20, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this
NATHAN…you are a jack###! It is pretty easy to sit here now and recount every move that has been made over the last 15 years (with your stupid comments in parentheses). It is much harder, on the other hand to make these moves year in and year out, maintaining a championship contending team along the way. If it were as easy as you make it sound then you would not be sitting at your computer typing all of that BS and working at Krystals at night.
By BOB C
June 20, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
Say what you want about Chuck Tanner. Had he remained manager of the Braves, there would be one heck of a lot more World Series flags hanging at Turner Field. He was a big game manager when he had the horses - still remember him completely outmanaging Earl Weaver (a Bobby Cox clone) in the ‘79 series. His winning Pirate teams didn’t have half the talent of the ‘90’s Braves. By the way, classy move by Phil Garner inviting him to the All Star game.
By Hal
June 20, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this
I think Calling JS an idiot or a genius is probably wrong but several of the posts above have me shaking my head some one suggested nathan was off base saying the sighning of mad dog was not a no brainer and somehow this took incredible smarts on JS part .What it took pure and simple was money and a lot of good young talent on the roster .The Genius if there was any was in maddogs ability to see that Atlanta had more championship kind of talent at that time then the yankees dis (although by 1996 he probably wanted to rethink that)
Over the 14 year run im sure Nathan and everyone else agrees that JS has done some great things hes kept winning despite payroll restrictions
However over the last two winters his performance has been way below average !!If he did not recognize over the last two winters the short commings of the last two bullpens hes just wrong ! If he did and did nothing to fix the problem thats even worse .If There was no money to fix the problem thats another thing but JS says theres never been any restrictions on getting players so if thats the case someones lieing
Also mistakes were made in evaluating the talent on this team .Several of last years 18 rookies should still be honing there skills in the minors .I Also saw someone say if Foster and Boyers hadent got hurt the bullpen would have been ok ….i dont think this person rembers Fosters struggles and dident take into consideration that Boyer was hurt LAST year
By Robert
June 20, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this
I agree with Nathan that Bobby Cox is not totally useless
Donkeys have lots of practical uses
They can pull wagons
They can give kids rides at the county fair
They can learn circus tricks
They just dont make good baseball managers
By nathan
June 20, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
Ken……(butthole or not) was he (Tanner) a good manager when given the talent (to work with). And as far as (Bobby) ask his wife how nice of a guy he was (ten years ago).
(t)(w)(i)(b)(d)(a)(w)(g) how’s that for Ya.
Yes hindsight is wonderfull isn’t it? So, let me get this straight, right before the McGriff trade happened, (which) (was) (being) (rumored) (for) (weeks)(at) (the) (time), you were sitting there in your dirty diaper, crying out to the world “OH MY GOD WHAT A RISK THAT WOULD BE, HOW DARING AND INTELLIGENT OF A GM WE’VE GOT. HE’S WILLING TO TRADE A NOBODY THAT NEVER WILL BE FOR A POSSIBLE HOF 1B IN THE PRIME OF HIS CAREER! WOW, IT SURE IS A GOOD THING TED OPENED HIS CHECKBOOK UP AND SAID, GO AHEAD JS. MAKE THE MOVE. (Because)(we)(all)(know)(it)(would)(have)(been)(a)(mucher)(GREATER)(job)(of)(GMing)(had)(Ted)(said),(sorry),(I’m)(not)(allowing)(you)(to)(add)(payroll)(right)(now). (You’re)(gonna)(have)(to)(unload)(some)(money)(to)(take)(on)(money)
Had that been how the deal was allowed to go down, and he would’ve had to decide between which of the pitchers, or veteren leaders, or anybody making any money at that time to unload, and the trade would’ve still netted the same result, then we could deem him (JS) a genius!
Or better yet, what if the Padres would’ve actually demanded Chipper? Then what, he makes that move he’s an idiot! If he doesn’t, the Braves don’t win the East that year even after adding the reigning CY Young winner in the previous off season!
Lose, Lose (I guess)
Ooops….I gues my parenthasis keys got stuck!
PS….BOB C. - At least sombody isn’t blind to what Chuck Tanner did in the 70’s with the Pirates. Oh, that’s right I forgot it’s all about the talent on the teams, it has nothing to do with management!
By Robert
June 20, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this
To everyone that thinks Donkey Cox hung the moon, I have a simple question.
Name for me, please, the managers that you think could NOT have won one World Series with the teams Bobby had
In my opinion, Billy frickin Heywood could run circles around Cox as a manager
By nathan
June 20, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
Thank you Hal.
Yes, he has made very good moves over the run. But most of those moves, are the bench and bit part players. Low risk veterans or castoffs from other teams. If they don’t work, release them, nothing lost. Like Mondesi last year. VERY low risk.
But all of the MAJOR moves to me are/were NO BRAINERS, as far as I can see.
Like I said, JS deserves credit for all the little moves and “tweaking” he does each off season. Just not this last one.
By Robert
June 20, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this
Then again, is it really all that exciting that Georgians are in awe of 14 straight division titles.
I mean, we are talking about people who still find it necessary to erect a Civil War Second Place Trophy in the every village square
By Brent
June 20, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this
Hal,
You are missing the point of what JS is saying about restrictions.
He is saying that RIGHT NOW, ownership has not restricted his ability to make moves in regards to the pending sale of the team.
However, he is still limited to the $80 million payroll they have given him.
So no, he can’t just go out and get Alfonso Soriano - because he has to consider whether or not he can re-sign him next year.
He couldn’t give Rafael Furcal $12 million/year, because that would have put him over the $80 million payroll max.
He had to let Greg Maddux walk, because going to arbitration with him would have forced him to have to pay him $15 million per year.
He can’t trade Chipper Jones, because he is a 10/5(7?) player.
He had to trade Kevin Millwood for a minor-leaguer, because his payroll had been slashed.
He does have restrictions/parameters within which he must work.
What he is saying is that TW HAS NOT COME TO HIM AND SAID, “JS, you cannot make any moves until this sale is finalized.”
Please be careful, Hal, who you accuse of lying.
By nathan
June 20, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
Robert…..you make me laugh! EEE AWWW!
By CITYofdecatur
June 20, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
get me some of what tanner’s smoking, had he stayed the 14year run would be stuff of science fiction in some parallel universe prediction BRAVES MAKE PLAYOFFS IN 2006 YEAH get me what tanner’s smokin’
By 59bulldawg
June 20, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry Braves Fan but Bobby Cox has not “had success at every level, every stop along the way as a manager.” In Bobby’s first stint as skipper of the Braves [1978-1981] he was 266-323. In 1978 the Braves finished with a record of 69 wins and 93 losses, 26 games out of first place; in 1979 they were 66 and 94, 23.5 out; in 1980 they were 81 and 80, 11 games out; and in the strike shortened season of 1981 they were 50 and 56, 15 games out of first place. Bobby’s current postseason record with the Braves is only 63 wins and 62 losses … just barely above .500? At Bobby’s next stop Toronto, he was better but so was the talent he managed. From 1982-1985 he was 355-292. In 1982 he was 78 and 84; in 1983 he was 89 and 73; 89 and 73 again in 1984; and in 1985, his best year in Toronto and the only year he finished first, Bobby’s Jays were 99 and 62. Of course they lost to Kansas City in the American League Championship Series 4 games to 3. By the way that 1985 Royals Team … which went on to win the World Series … was built in part by John Schuerholz. Even at the beginnining of his second stint with the Braves in 1990 … when Tanner was fired … and Bobby managed 97 games he was only 40 and 57. Atlanta and Toronto are the only teams that Bobby’s managed in the major leagues. My point is that Bobby is a mediocre manager at best. When his teams have talent he wins because the abilities of his players cover up his management flaws. When he doesn’t have the talent, Bobby’s leadership and management style doesn’t inspire his players to overachieve. Yeah I know the Braves teams that he coached from 1978-1981 were not completely without talent. They had Rick Mahler, Phil Niekro, Dale Murphy, Bob Horner, and Jerry Royster among others. But they were not overall as talented as the teams Bobby has coached since 1990. But nevertheless, in 1982, Joe Torre took the Braves, who had finished 15 games out of first in 1981, Bobby’s last year of his first stint, to the division title with a 89 win and 73 loss season. It was pretty much the same team that Cox had left. And whether we like it or not we know what Torre’s gone on to do with the Yankees. Whether you like the Yanks or not, it has to be said that when you give Torre a team loaded with talent he knows what to do with it. One can only wonder how many more World Championships we would have had had he remained the manager of the Braves or at least had a JS to work with. I’m not a Bobby Cox hater but neither am I blind. I’ve been saying the same things about him since the early 90s. He’s too much of a players manager, he’s too partial to veterans and too often plays his favorites rather than the most talented, he’s too slow to make pitching moves often leaving a pitcher in the game long after he begins to lose his stuff, and he too often tries to use a player in a position where that player is not suited [Reitsma as closer and Giles as leadoff hitter]. Bobby, however, is an excellent judge of talent and a lot of the credit for our amazing minor league system rightfully belongs to him. He’s just not a great manager of that talent once it gets to the major league level. Since 1990 Bobby’s record has been great but so has the talent. That talent has been much better than a mere 63-62 postseason record and only one World Series championship. For most of second stint as skipper of the Braves, JS has given Bobby the tools to do the job. Bobby, however, except for that one brief shining moment in 1995, just hadn’t got it done.
By Hal
June 20, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this
Im accusing NO ONE of lying BUT its you who miss the point Soriano,Furcal et all above ARE NOT solutions to a bull pen so dysfunctional even you would agree im sure ! The solution to the problem was NOT all that exzpensive keeping Farnsworth and adding Todd jones would have been a huge improvment over the garbage that now serves as our pen ! Traded for and added by way of minor league free agents …in other words CHEAP fixes begs you to wonder is there or isent there payroll restrictions
By nathan
June 20, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this
Brent….that’s my point exactly!
IF Time Warner said JS “we’re trying to sell the team and we want a GREAT product on the field, spend what you need to make that happen”, and after hearing this, he traded say Giles and Davies for Soriano and put him at 2B/Lead Off.
Would that make him a genius because he was “allowed” to spend a bunch of money?
I think the true signs of how good JS is will come and have come since the monetary restrictions have been applied. He’s done an admirable job the last 3 years - like adding JD Drew when Sheff walked, etc…
But face facts, he had a HORRIBLE off season this past one. Had he even attempted to fix the bullpen with anything but NON ROSTER INVITIES. We wouldn’t be having this conversation. And when I say “attemted to fix the bullpen”, I don’t even mean signing a HIGH DOLLAR closer. Heck, if our Offense is sooooo darn good and not the root of the problems this year, why not trad a piece of the offense to clear up money in the offseason last year to have enough money to sign one of the HIGH DOLLAR closers?
Just a jacka$$’s idiot opinion, I guess! LOL
By Eric C.
June 20, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this
Nathan et al., Don’t forget the play that really turned Game 4 around in the 96 series…the Braves were up 6-0 and cruising along when the umpire interfered with Jermaine Dye on his attempt to catch an easy foul ball. After that play, the yankees ended up scoring 3 runs in the same inning and took the momentum…leading to rest of the debacle. I’ve always rated that play as one of the most critical in Braves history. Also, the series was 2-1 Braves at the time…not 3-0. We can’t say that the Braves would have won the 96 series if they had gone up 3-1, but they sure would have had a much easier road.
By Tommy Hawk
June 20, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this
One guy who deserves credit for the development of the Braves pitching staffbut never will due to one bad pitch. That man is Charlie Liebrandt. Before he came the Braves pitchers had great arms but they were just throwers. Leibrandt didn’t have the arm they did so he relied on location and changing speed, in other words a pitcher. He is the one who showed the Braves young guns that it took more than a good fastball to win in the majors. Look at Glavines wind up and delivery, almost a mirror image of Liebrandt’s.
In Leibrandts 3 years with the Braves he had a 3.34 ERA and won 39 games. He was a starter who needed a couple of innings to set up his stuff and would give up a run or two early but then settle down and pitch a quality start. He should never have been put in that situation where he gave up that homerun to begin with. In Cox’s defense, Leibrandt was the best pitcher in the pen at that time, but not the best pitcher for that situation.
Forget about Tanner, I would like to see Liebrandt get some of the love he deserves. There were a lot more positives in his tenure with the Braves than negatives but unfortunately he is only remembered for one bad pitch. Kind of like the Buckner of Atlanta. Despite popular opinion my a fan base with a very selective memory, Charlie Liebrandt did not suck. You can’t suck and sport a 3.34 ERA and 39 wins over 3 years and “suck”.
By Hal
June 20, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this
Eric
rember the play like it was yesterday and couldent agree with you more ! I have never understood why that little misadventure never got more attention
By Brent
June 20, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this
Hal,
Farnsworth took more than what we could pay him.
So did Furcal. So did Todd Jones.
Honestly, can you count to 80?
Plus, please go back and look at your post.
Do you not say, “Someones lieing (sic)”?
YES HAL!!!! There are payroll restrictions.
EVERYONE who has so much as sniffed the Atlanta Braves since 2003 is 100% aware of this! Where have you been?
What JS is saying is that TW has not told him that he is not allowed to make moves, right now, due to the pending sale.
But this does not mean that he is allowed to do whatever he wants. He is capped at an $80 million payroll.
Huge difference between that, and what you are describing.
Please pay attention.
By nathan
June 20, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this
Eric C……you are absolutely correct!
I remember it well, didn’t the umpire slightly get in Dye’s way on that play? I believe he did.
You are right, I was wrong. They did lose that series 4-2. I remember lemke made the final out, with Chipper on deck. Chipper said somthing to the effect of “I had a good feeling about my upcoming at bat had lemke got on.”
Apparently he hasn’t had that same feeling in a while! LOL
By Hal
June 20, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this
Tommy
Again im agreeing(nathans going to disown me lol) Charlie Liebrandt was a fine pitcher and Bobby got altogeather too much grief for bringing him into the game against the twins .I was at the game and rember many around me agreeing on it being a good move in retrospect it dident turn out too good but its easy to be an arm chair quarterback isent it???
By nathan
June 20, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this
Great Post Tommy Hawk.
Leibrandt was exactly the veteran prescence the young Braves pitchers needed back then. The same way Smoltz could be for the Tigers.
Yeah Leibrandt kinda got known as the GOAT for that one pitch to Puckett. But hey, he should’ve never been put in that position. Plus gotta give Puckett credit, he came through in the clutch. Big Time Player for a Big Time Spot.
By Brent
June 20, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this
Nathan,
You are correct that this was not a good off-season for the Braves.
You could hear the frustration from Schuerholz as guys like Todd Jones took shots at him, and Farnsworth swept out of town without a whisper.
But, what you are failing to consider is this:
The Braves never would’ve handed out some of the large contracts (see: C. Jones) that they did, had they known what payroll reductions were coming. It’s that simple. Chipper would be making less. Andruw might be making less (or would’ve been traded), etc. Also, the Braves never intended to go to arbitration with Maddux, but because they did, they had to give Millwood away.
For the last 2 seasons especially, the effects of a mis-matched payroll have been mounting.
Imagine if the Yankees had to cut payroll to $150 million today. Where would they start?
It’s a similar situation with the Braves.
No one is saying JS is infallible; but, to a large extent this off-season, his hands were tied.
He let Furcal walk, but did a nice job of replacing him.
He intended for the excess salary to allow him to sign a closer.
Who would you have liked him to sign?
Todd Jones? too much money.
billy Wagner? Same
Farnsworth? Same.
Please, Mr. Nathan hindsight is 20/20, who is it that you want to sign?
We’ve read your criticisms, but where are the suggestions?
Please, continue to fill us with your wisdom.
By Tommy Hawk
June 20, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this
Good point nathan. It wasn’t like some scrub journeyman hit that home run, it was a Hall of famer and one of the greatest clutch hitters of all time.
By Hal
June 20, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this
The Braves still have several million dollars available to spend after failing to land a closer this winter.
THE ABOVE IS A PASTE OF A COMMENT CONRIBUTED TO JS INANOTHER article in todays Journal
NOW explain to me how im the idiot and there was no money to bring in bullpen help
By op
June 20, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this
I didn’t want Bonds then, and I don’t want him now. Thank heaven that trade was never made!
By Brent
June 20, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this
Hal,
Again, thanks for telling us what we already know.
Who would you like us to sign?
No one is lying.
You can have money, but that doesn’t mean that you just spend it.
Who do you want to sign?
Please tell me.
Personally, I think that Schuerholz objective this season was to stay in contention until July, and then pluck off a closer from elsewhere (thus the excess payroll money).
Who could’ve predicted 3-17?
Before this started, we were only 3 1/2 games out.
You can blame some of this disaster on JS, it doesn’t bother me; but, I did understand his plan, and until Memorial Day, it was working.
One of the problems the Braves have had in season’s past, is that they have had no money at the trade deadline.
Remember all those Joe Carter rumors a few years back? Well, they weren’t feasible because we had no extra money. The Braves hoped and prayed that Reitsma could be “May-mid-July 2005 Reitsma” for about 3 months this year. It didn’t work. It sucks. It doesn’t mean that they didn’t have a decent plan; nor does it mean that someone is a liar. If you will do more than just pull single sentences out of context Hal, you would also note that it is difficult to make significant trades in June. And, if you do some research, you’ll see that the Braves did try to sign a closer, but didn’t have enough money. Had they known that no one would take a discount, perhaps they would’ve been well served to use that money on a couple of middle-relievers; but, that was what the Estrada for Villareal and Cormier trade was for. It’s not as if this is the first time we’ve tried to re-work the bullpen. It is only the first time the attempt has failed this miserably.
Put facts together Hal, don’t just pull things out of context to support your argument.
By nathan
June 20, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this
Brent. Good points.
I’m not sure who I would’ve liked him to sign. It’s easy for me to “throw the money around”, because it’s not my money! LOL
But everybody seems to think that the offense is just fine, and that the bullpen is the root of all evil. The bullpen hasn’t done anything to prove otherwise so I’ll agree. (though I do think the Offense has flaws too - but they could be overcome with a legit bullpen). I think some money should’ve been cut, heck even “dumped” to make room to OVERPAY for one of those mentioned closers. Billy Wagner might’ve come here - granted I don’t think he was worth the money - but better to overspend and have him than do nothing. I don’t think Trevor Hoffman was EVER going to leave SD, so you (I) can’t blame JS for that. Farnsworth choked in the playoffs, but even overspending for him might have been a better option - but I think he wanted to leave anyhow, so again, can’t really blame JS. Hind sight says Baldwin might have been the answer, but like you say, hindsight is 20/20.
But would anybody have been mad had JS “dumped” Thomson in December for nothing in return other than “cleared” up payroll? Had he done that and filled the spot in the rotation with Chuck James just to have some extra cash for Wagner, that might have worked.
But in all fairness to JS and your post. I would be b*tching about signing Wagner to a longterm contract in 2 or 3 years when we would’ve had an “overpriced” Sterling Hitchcock scenario on our hands. BTW, you are correct, JS did a great job in replacing Furcal with Renteria. I always forget to mention that. But again, it was a case of Boston just trying to make Renteria go away. But you still have to give JS credit for taking a chance on that. We’ll see how we all feel about it if the Braves miss the playoffs for then next couple of years with Chipper in decline, if Marte turns out to be a stud after Renteria is long gone. We won’t know about that one for a while. I don’t think Detroint completely regrets trading Smoltz for Doyle Alexander in 1987, after all Doyle DOMINATED down the stretch and helped them get to the playoffs.
I just really have a problem that JS didn’t do somthing, anything other than assuming Reitsma would be OK in the closers spot. However I admit, I didn’t think he’d be that bad either. I think they were counting on Devine stepping up. But that was WAY too big of a gamble to take.
Giles could’ve been traded in the offseason, to clear up a little payroll, with Betemit being able to fill in at 2B. If Betemit would’ve failed in that roll, JS probably would have an easier time finding a 2B at the deadline than a closer.
Hope that clears up my thoughts, I don’t claim to be a genius myself. But I don’t think JS upheld his “genius” title this offseason either.
By Tommy Hawk
June 20, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
Actually the Braves don’t necessarily have to give up and arm and a leg for a serviceable closer. The Diamondbacks gave up a washed up Orlando Hernandez for Jorge Julio who is doing a respectable job as their closer. Saito for the Dodgers is doing a good job of filling in for Gagne. They didn’t spend a lot or give up anything for him, they just plucked him out of japan where he was a closer there.
Those are the type of guys Shurholtz usually goes for anyway.
Sure Atlanta might not be able to afford a Jones or a Wagner but they could look outside of their farm system. It isn’t like it has been a hotbed of closers in teh past. I think they gambled too much thinking Joey Devine would be the man without a plan B if he failed.
By Brent
June 20, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this
Nathan,
I agree that someone probably could have or should have been dumped.
I think Thomson is the likely suspect; unfortunately, he ended up getting injured near the end of Spring Training. That slowed us down. Then Ramirez got hurt, and we needed Thompson. Now Thompson is hurt, and we can’t trade him b/c he’s on the DL …
By nathan
June 20, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this
Brent….point well taken. But I would’ve moved him way before spring training and the possibility of further injury.
Thomson throws harder when he’s not starting and has natural movement on his pitches. Why wasn’t he given a chance to be the closer? If I remember correctly, he did an admirable job out of the pen in that epic 18 inning game in the playoffs with the Astros. Just a thought.
By Hal
June 20, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this
i know how we could have cut payroll .we could have just given Estrada away …ohh wait we already did that lol
By Eric C.
June 20, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
Hal and Nathan, It is good to hear that others recall that play…it seemed so innocuous at the time with a 6-0 lead. Does anyone remember the ump’s name? He got right in front of Dye and Dye tried to circle around him but it was too late. I’m sure Dye might have tried to run through the ump to catch the ball if he had know what was going to transpire…lol. This season has seen plenty of plays like that already, it’s amazing what one silly play can cost a team.
By Matt
June 20, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this
someone put this in thier post earlier “So either way one of them has to be held somewhat accountable. By not making moves or doing somthing to show that they won’t stand for no BS, well, that’s just bad decision making.” talking about not teaching the young players the proper way. Do you not remember Cox taking Andruw out of a game for being lazy on a fly ball, it woke him up.
By Jim B
June 20, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this
Nathan— Nathan—Nathan—
Man you NEED to get a LIFE!!!!!
By nathan
June 20, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this
why do you say that Jim B?
not being an A$$, just asking.
By Franklins Tower
June 20, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this
Braves are winless in their last EIGHT world series games. That’s 0-8 for all you homegamers! Without Cox at the helm, the Braves would have won 3-4 titles. His insistence upon using cold players and going 100% with matchups by the book have cost his teams postseason success. OK, so maybe they wouldn’t have won the division 14 straight years- so what. I would take 4 WS titles and 9 division titles over 1 and 14 any day. Bobby wants to record the most REGULAR SEASON wins of any manager. Good thing he has something to chase because he is flat out terrible in the postseason and may not get back there for a LONG time. Good riddance old man!
By Danny
June 20, 2006 07:26 PM | Link to this
Amen to that one Tower…ANYONE else would be long gone ..fired….to bad not him.
By Robert
June 20, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this
There’s a donkey in the dugout
By Robert
June 20, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this
Franklins Tower - amen amen aMEN!
By hector j samper
June 20, 2006 08:50 PM | Link to this
I love Braves team , before comming to Atlanta.
Now I dont not like the team actuation, pool bullpen,all braves population is not happy wil the team.
Cox to need go to minor legues, is some to the playing. Reitsman, lest goo
By Luis
June 20, 2006 11:17 PM | Link to this
I JUST GOT DONE SEEING ANOTHER BRAVES BULLP[EN MELDOWN I MEAN IS THIS EVER GOING TO STOP, DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE THIS IS STARTING TO AFFECT MY LIFE AND WORK AND EVERYHTING, I TIP MY HAT TO FRANCOEUR , MCAAN, ANDRUW AND THE BRAVES THAT ARE LEAVING IT ALL IN THE FIELD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I WILL TAKE SHOTS AT CHIPPER JONES, I MEAN THIS GUY PLAY WITH ABSOLUTELY NO FIRE, TRADE HIS A* AWAY, HE DOESN’T LOOK LIKE HE CARES MUCH, GET RID OF HIM AND PLEASE BRING SOME KIDS UP FOR THE BULLPEN, THERE IS JOSE ASCANCIO, WILL STARTUP, MATT WRIGHT THERE ARE OPTIONS BUT PLEASE, THIS SI GETTING TO BE BIZARRE, I MEAN THE ROYALS ARE BETTER THAN US, THE ROYALS!!!!! JOHN SHUERHOLZ GET HIS A* UP HIS CHAIR AND MAKE A %^&^&% MOVE, TYLER YATES OUT! REITSMA OUT! SOSA OUT! DO SOMETHING PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
By Ralph
June 21, 2006 01:06 AM | Link to this
In all the years that I have been watching baseball, I have never seen a team that has been so successful for so many years take a drive when they weren’t even half way into the year and completely fall apart. Every professional sport has to have a loser and the outcome is sad, but when a team acts, play and look like losers. Its unexplainable its like they are loosing intentionally, or like they’re looking forward in losing, or the desired to play the game is just not there any more. In Boxing you would call this taking a dive, or throwing in the towel before the fight is over. The braves threw in the towel around the tenth game. No matter what the reason or reasons is, its no fun to watch a bunch of quitters play the game of baseball, a game which have millions of fans and love the game and to see a team stink it up. Sad to say the braves are one for the book of unbelievable failures for the 2006 season and hope not beyond.
By Ralph
June 21, 2006 01:37 AM | Link to this
The braves have long term contracts with a few players and these are the players eating up most of the money or the budget. Any athletic making millions is ridicules, any way they do and when your organization ties up millions of dollar on 3 to 4 players and sign them for three to four years- this is called stupidity. When these millionaires show that they no longer will give 100% for the game that has made them millionaires - this is called indifference When an organization hire in the closet and refuses to see an empire fell apart all around them - this is called deception, sham, cheating and throw in pretext. The brave game have replace the soap operas, that when you see one of their game you want cry, yell, throw in a few chosing words and laught. I understand that pretty soon there will be clown day at Atlanta Stadium, main attraction THE ATLANTA BRAVE STARRING THE ATLANTA BRAVES, with broozo, little willie, greasy and a whole club of clowns.