AJC > Sports > Columnists > Archives > 2006 > June > 02 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USCox, not GM, is irreplaceable
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Mark Bradley
Bobby Cox, 65, is the best manager in baseball. John Schuerholz, 65, is the best GM. Each has done such surpassing work as to render himself indispensable. Today’s topic, then, is the baseball equivalent of the old who-wins-if-Superman-and-The-Incredible-Hulk-get-into-a-fight brainteaser. To wit: Of the Braves’ two irreplaceable men, which will be harder to replace?
Answer: Cox.
And it’s not because he was himself the general himself before returning to the clubhouse (at Stan Kasten’s request) in June 1990. In four years as an executive, Cox did well in energizing the Braves’ farm system and accumulating young pitchers, but it wasn’t until Schuerholz arrived in October 1990 that this organization became a first-class entity. Cox the GM had become reluctant to make moves — trading Steve Bedrosian for Ozzie Virgil and signing the vertiginous Nick Esasky had left scars — and a more confident hand was needed. And Schuerholz, as we know, is blatantly self-assured.
Schuerholz made the personnel moves in his first offseason — acquiring Terry Pendleton, Sid Bream and Rafael Belliard — that changed the face of the Braves. The whole operation was crying for someone to make a public commitment to excellence, and the suspendered Schuerholz did it. He was the catalyst when all this began, and he has continued to stock and re-stock all the division winners in the decade-and-a-half since. The great run would never have commenced without Schuerholz’s vision, but it couldn’t have endured without Cox’s day-to-day stewardship. Everything around him changes, but he remains constant. He inspires a loyalty among his coaches and players that is utterly foreign in this big-money me-first realm of contemporary professional sports. It’s amazing to see, year upon year, new Braves walk into this clubhouse and, in a matter of days, become absolute Cox acolytes.
Largely because of creeping budgetary restraints, the quality of personnel Schuerholz has provided has vacillated in recent seasons. For a decade the Braves spent big and won with starting pitching, but in 2002 they were buoyed by a lockdown bullpen and in 2003 they were carried by an unusually robust offense. In 2004 they won without much of a team at all. Usually they’ve finished first because of veterans, but last year they finished first with a raft of rookies.
Two years ago Marty Brennaman, the Hall of Fame broadcaster for the Cincinnati Reds, hauled out the famous quote — originally voiced by Frank Howard about Bear Bryant and repeated by Bum Phillips about Don Shula — and applied it to Cox: “He can take his’n and beat your’n.” And that’s the point. Maybe one or two other GMs could have stitched together comparable rosters for the price Schuerholz has paid these last five years. No other manager could have won division titles with them.
Think about this: The last 15 times Bobby Cox has left spring training with a team and completed a season with it, that team has finished first. (This includes the 1985 Toronto Blue Jays.) Maybe 10 of those times he has had the most talent in his division, but at least five times he hasn’t. Didn’t matter. He won anyway. He might well win again with this bunch, which lacks a closer and a first baseman and a leadoff hitter. He has that effect.
Understand: This isn’t an attempt to drive a wedge between Cox and Schuerholz, who like and respect one another and who have always worked together — invoking the Schuerholz word — seamlessly. They’re both great at what they do, and they’ll both be missed hugely whenever they choose to leave. And admittedly the matter of which will be missed more is a close call. Close, but clear.
One is the best GM of his era. The other is the best manager ever. The Braves might get ridiculously lucky and find another John Schuerholz. They’ll never find another Bobby Cox.
Permalink | Comments (70) | Post your comment | Categories: Braves / MLB, Mark Bradley
Comments
By DHD
June 2, 2006 08:20 PM | Link to this
People get frustrated at the lack of World Series championships and want to blame it on Cox. Cox didn’t get fooled at second base, Lonnie Smith did. Cox didn’t give up the HR to Leyritz, Wohlers did. On and on it goes. The players have to take the responsibility. of course, if the manager does something stupid, that’s one thing, but Cox has not. The players just didn’t seal the deal. Bobby Cox is as sure a hall of famer as Roger Clemens.
Being a fan of the Braves since 1966, I appreciate this 14 season run. Bobby Cox deserves the credit. He is a players manager. They love him.
Thanks, Bobby.
By tarmar
June 2, 2006 09:23 PM | Link to this
i agree, DHD. cox has done his job. others sometimes fall short. and thanks, mark, for a superb column.
By Rick
June 2, 2006 09:27 PM | Link to this
I, too, have been a Braves fan since I listened to that opening night game in 1966 on my little transistor radio. I have been in the old stadium when there was maybe 1,500 people in the stands. The noveau Braves “fans” are spoiled and not very knowledgeable about the game if they do not realize they are watching one of ( if not THE) best managers in the history of the game. Bobby may be loyal to a fault, but if he was not the way he is the Braves would not have had this unmatched run of success.The end may come this year, but it will not be Cox’s fault.
By doc
June 2, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this
turner knew what he was talking about as he fired cox when asked who he would replace his manager with if he could, he pointed to cox who was on his way out the door.
now arent you backpeddling a bit now as you let the bell toll when dayton left?
By doc
June 2, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this
turner knew what he was talking about as he fired cox when asked who he would replace his manager with if he could, he pointed to cox who was on his way out the door.
now arent you backpeddling a bit now as you let the bell toll when dayton left?
By John
June 2, 2006 09:43 PM | Link to this
Bobby has had good teams in the past but he has always had one problem and that is he does not know when to pull his pitcher out of a game,he usually waits too long and then he has this thing about righty and lefty,a righty can get out a lefty and a lefty can get a righty out,he usually ends up having a lefty pitch only to a lefty,why not let someone like Ray who is right handed pitch to a left hander,if Ray is pitching a good game why should he have to come out for McBride.another one of Bobby’s weakness is he does not play enough of small ball.sometimes you have to take a gamble,why not have your big guys also bunt,anyone can get a run in if he bunts a ball right.don’t need to always swing for the fence,Bobby also has a tendency to not to like for his starters to get a complete game,i have seen times when a starter has pitched well for 7 innings or even 8 innings and he takes them out and brings in this bullpen which can’t hold a lead then they end up blowing it and the Braves lose games they should have won.Cox needs to let his starters go deeper,forget these pitching counts,if a pitcher is pitching well i don’t see whether it matters if he has thrown 100 pitches or 120 pitches,as long as he is still getting guys out.remeber he doesn’t have the luxury of a proven closer.
By todd
June 2, 2006 09:56 PM | Link to this
BOBBY is the best manager in 50 years and a SURE FIRE HOF!! I agree with DHD its the players that seal the deal. Bobby always makes right moves.. If only chipper wasnt the AROD of the Braves and choke in the clutch, he would have more World series appearences. Kudos to Bobby and his future induction.
By DHD
June 2, 2006 10:03 PM | Link to this
John….you said that he usually waits too long to pull his pitcher, then you said he needs to let his starters go longer. He’s a baseball manager, not a prophet.
By Lane tucker
June 2, 2006 10:16 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is the greatest underacheiving manager in the history of baseball
To win all those divisions and only have one win to show for it is proof
the best manager currently working is Joe Torre, who has won the world series 4 times out of 6 appearances with the yankees
By Larry
June 2, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is the Cheerleader and Nanny for the unparallel talent afforded him for 15 consecutive years by the best GM, and, as you ignorantly or intentionally omitted, Mr. Bradley, the absolutely BEST scouting and player development in the majors. So he nurtures and burps this talent to help them beat out 4 other teams over 162 games. This is a good accomplishment by a good, reliable nanny, but hardly one to declare him the “greatest” ever. Even with the 9th highest payroll in the majors this year, Cox has his team producing the 16th best (or worst) record. This is “greatness?”
He is, however, the absolute worst strategic and situational manager in the history as his 1-14 record in the last game of the postseason clearly proves.
FIFTEEN chances and it took Tom Glavine pitching a one hitter to perhaps the best offensive team in the modern major league era, the Cleveland Indians if 1995, to give Cox his ONLY championship. Had Tom been off this day Cox would be 0-15!
When the key bats are a cold, Cox hasn’t clue what to do. His only hope is a near perfectly pitched game and a big homerun, just like he got from Glavine and Justice to give him his only title in fifteen opportunities (counting Toronto).
1-14 is a .071 winning percentage—hardly the indicator of “greatest.” As the competition gets better Cox is exposed.
By John K
June 2, 2006 10:22 PM | Link to this
Thank you Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz. Someday, and that may be soon, both will leave and the run will end. Then and only then, will Braves fans look back and realize just how good they had it.
By John K
June 2, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this
Thank you Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz. Someday, and that may be soon, both will leave and the run will end. Then and only then, will Braves fans look back and realize just how good they had it.
By ILL-logical
June 2, 2006 10:36 PM | Link to this
I believe the point that Mr. Bradley was trying to make was that a Dayton Moore may leave,a Schuerholz may leave but the sign of the coming apocalypse will be the departure of one Bobby Cox.
By MATT
June 2, 2006 11:03 PM | Link to this
Mark, you could not be further off the truth here. John Schuerholz is the MAN. He has made key acquisitions each and every year and rebuilt this team with budget restrictions being applied by TWX/AOL. Granted, we are arguing apples and oranges here. Bobby could be the best regular season manager because he keeps the ship at an evel keel and demands the best from his players. He gets the best. But he does not know how to turn the switch in the post season. Neither John or Bobby can make Chipper or Gary or Klesko or Raffy hit in the postseason. I think Mr. Schuerholz set the tone for the turnaround in this franchise. It starts with the man at the top, and that is Mr. Scuerholz. Bobby set the structure by rebuilding the minors with pitching, but Mr. Schuerholz is irreplaceable. I think the teams he has built win with or without Bobby. The two work well together, but what are you trying to stir up here. Mr. Schuerholz will be inducted into the hall of Fame, and you heard it here first, he will be the next commissioner of MLB. Well done Mr. Schuerholz, you have constructed the most immporably run of Division Titles and it will never be matched in team sport history. One more World Series Championship would be nice though. Mr. Schuerholz, Please get us a closer. Reitsma is the worst closer in the Majors and in your book you state how important the closer is, prove it to us and stop making Bobby have to put false confidence into REITSMA
By Surfrider
June 2, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this
Sorry Mark. Everyone is replaceable. Matter of fact there may be a duo out there who could do a better job. Complaceny by success is a huge obstacle to continued success. No doubt this duo has done a great job. It helped to have all that talent coming up the pipeline and league expansion that watered down some of the competition. Whoever is in charge of finding this young talent starting in 1991 till the present is the real key. People make a difference and yes GM and Manager have made a difference.
By Surfrider
June 2, 2006 11:09 PM | Link to this
Sorry Mark. Everyone is replaceable. Matter of fact there may be a duo out there who could do a better job. Complaceny by success is a huge obstacle to continued success. No doubt this duo has done a great job. It helped to have all that talent coming up the pipeline and league expansion that watered down some of the competition. Whoever is in charge of finding this young talent starting in 1991 till the present is the real key. People make a difference and yes GM and Manager have made a difference.
By david baird
June 2, 2006 11:11 PM | Link to this
Disagree… it Schuerholz who made the difference when he came and that difference has been maintained for over 14 seasons. Cox deserves his due… but without Schuerholz he’s probably long gone by now.
By Ron Roberts
June 2, 2006 11:15 PM | Link to this
Larry go buy the domain name firebobbycox.com and stop repeating yourself.
Joe Torre’s 4-7 in his “last postseason games,” too. That’s a .363 winning percentage, by the way.
And dude, the competition doesn’t get better; the tools Cox has at his disposal become less and fewer. He has fewer buttons to push and levers to pull, and you know it.
You can’t hang the last three postseasons on Cox. You can’t hang ‘91 on Cox; what one managerial move would’ve kept the Yankees from sweeping us in ‘99, Larry?
And who’d be the better option to replace him, since you’re ready to give him the boot all this time? I never see a viable answer when I pose this question….
By Head Coach
June 2, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this
Larry stop drinking the kool aid. Cox is a hall of fame manager with a world championship ring , five national league championships , fourteen division winners and credited with seven cy young awards , two manager of the year awards , two mvp’s , one rookie of the year , one batting champion , one rolaids relief award , scads of gold gloves and won more games than anybody over the past eighteen years as a manager .etc. etc. etc. etc. Are you getting the picture yet ??? He is the above all loyal to his players and the biggest cheerleader on the field . He congratulates his players publicly and chews them out behind closed doors. He creates an atmosphere of respect , trust , discipline and a team that would run through a brick wall if he asked them too. His penchant for bobbyball is no secret and he has been managing for so long that every other manager and scout has the book on how to beat Cox. He is human to a fault just like the rest of us , but if you ask around the major leagues who is the most respected and revered manager in the game you wil get a unanimous vote for Bobby Cox. So grow some friggin respect , the man has earned it.
By Hal
June 2, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this
Im about to prove two things (1) im old (2) im loyal ! Ive been a braves fan since 1954 when the dodgers traded my favorite player Andy Pafko to the braves. In that time ive seen the good,the bad and the ugly! Bobby Cox is way on the other end of the scale from ugly.Simply the best manager in the last 30 years DHD said it best in the first of these blogs the players must take responsability for the recent failures Bobby Cox also dident want or expect Garry Shefield to go 4 for 40 something in his two years here.Ive noticed lots of nit picking of his strategy in game, most are short sited one game disecting of something thats much bigger then one game that being winning the devision NO one has done that as well!! there are two sure fire hall of famers on this years braves A Jones and B Cox !
By UGA 72
June 2, 2006 11:41 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is also a GREAT human being. I am an Softball Umpire and have seen Bobby at numerous games with his Daughter. He was always patient with fans, signed autographs for everyone and was very kind to we considerably less than professional umpires. I suspect that the reason Bobby Cox is the best manager is because he cares about his players, as you watch him in the Dugout, he literally wills his players to succeed. He has been too slow to pull an occassional pitcher, because he wants them to win so badly.
We hear all the time how much his players love him, yet in most papers in other cities the players rip their management. We’ve had player rip Leo, but even trouble makers don’t complain about Bobby. Usually people wait until someone is dead to say nice things about people they know well, but that isn’t the case with Bobby Cox. He will be a Baseball Hall of Fame Manager, he already is a Hall of Fame Person in life.
By BirdDawg
June 3, 2006 01:37 AM | Link to this
Wow, Mark Bradley.
I guess in your backwards world, winning World Series rings doesn’t matter.
I guess in your world, failing when it matters the most, when the chips are down and your decisions mean winning and going home, doesn’t matter.
I guess in your world, Bobby Cox, the worst postseason manager in the history of baseball is a better manager than Miller Huggins, Casey Stengal, Connie Mack, Sparky Anderson, Tommy Lasorda, Joe Torre, and Billy Martin, guys who have more World Series wins and who have proven to be better in the clutch and better managerial tacticians than Bobby Cox could ever hope to be.
Well, Bradley, if that is your world, I’m sure as hell glad I don’t live in it.
Bobby Cox is nothing more or less that the greatest regular season manager in the history of baseball.
But when the chips are down, when it matters the most, he is nothing more or less that the worst postseason manager in the history of baseball.
He’s the A-Fraud of managers. Pretty regular season numbers, but no clutch performances.
You can count on Bobby Cox to win division titles. And you can count on Bobby Cox to make some stupid decision to cost his team a game or two in the postseason, such as starting an injured and washed up right fielder, or misusing his bullpen, not pulling his starters, being way too loyal to slumping players when there are guys on the bench hitting .400 in the postseason.
He’s the worst because he manages in October like he does in May. He’s the worst because he doesn’t make adjustments. He’s the Greg Knapp of baseball.
He’s a great guy. He’s down to earth, and his players love him. He does great things for charity. But in October, give me Torre, give me Huggins, Anderson, Mack, and Stengal.
I wouldn’t take Bobby Cox in October if you paid me million dollars. And I know I’m not the only one.
By bubba9000
June 3, 2006 02:18 AM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is the best manager in baseball today. He will still get more WS rings if he continues to manage. With the teams he has managed, he’s an overacheiver, going beyond everybody’s expectation. A true hall-of-famer, and I want his autograph.
By Clyde
June 3, 2006 02:47 AM | Link to this
Mark Bradley’s opinions continue to be as laughable and goofy as that column photo of him in the paper.
As for UGA 72…that must be your IQ. BOBBY COX A GREAT HUMAN BEING??
He is the grouchiest, most ill-tempered manager in baseball in the last 40 years.
By Andy
June 3, 2006 03:26 AM | Link to this
Been a Braves fan since age 4 in ‘69. Cox is a great leader and a winner. I agree a little bit with earlier comments that some of his style bodes more for him in the long season than a shortened playoff. But I would rather have a team that has a chance of winning it all every year or even a playoff contender every year than what we had every year from 1969-1990 save one. I only hope when he retires the braves can hire half a good of a manager and not another Clyde King/Dave Bristol/Eddie Haas/Chuck Tanner/Russ Nixon.
By ray
June 3, 2006 07:37 AM | Link to this
So many complain that the Braves win the division and get bumped in the first round of the playoffs. They get tired of it and I have even heard some morons say they think it might be good for the Braves not to win the division and not make the playoffs for a year. “Get back the hunger.” We all had the same situation with the hawks many years ago. Good regular season make the playoffs and then get bumped. Hmm Wouldn’t most Hawk fans almost kill NOW to make the playoffs. Be careful of what you wish for. Sometimes in the middle of things we don’t realize how good something really is. If you make the playoffs you have a chance. No playoffs no chance for a championship. Simple I know. I want the run to continue and take our chances in the playoffs. Don’t want the Braves to turn into the Hawks.
By Rick Camp
June 3, 2006 07:44 AM | Link to this
With three divisions instead of the earlier two, these “divisional championships” ring hollow with me. Baseball is watered down. With the exception of a couple close divisional races, and 1993 comes to mind quickly, the Braves have had it there way primarily in weak divisions.
We all know what happens the first round of the playoffs !
By Larry
June 3, 2006 07:52 AM | Link to this
BirdDawg,
Touché!
Ronald,
See if your liberal, degnerate mind can comprehend BirdDawg’s comments, “dude”.
By TD
June 3, 2006 08:18 AM | Link to this
I guess every so often when an Atlanta sports writer has nothing else to write about we get reminded what a great manager Cox is. I can hang the Braves losing in 91 on Cox for putting in Leibrandt in game 6. the lineup in 98 against the padres in the last game was anemic. I would have fired him after he punched his wife.
By p
June 3, 2006 08:26 AM | Link to this
how many times did cox have the best team in baseball, including three hall of fame starting pitchers, and lost? probably 6 of the 14 seasons the braves had the best team in baseball. starting pitching is 90% of the game in the post season - he had it and blew it.
one WS win, 13 times booted out. many pitifully in the first round. toronto and minnesota won more WS than cox did.
he panics in the post season and that transmits to the players. braves have also benefited from being slotted in the NL east with the worst teams, historically, in baseball.
torre would have won at least 4 WS had he managed the braves.
By David
June 3, 2006 08:27 AM | Link to this
I agree with you Mark. As silly as it might sound, I look back at some of the recent losses in playoffs as proof to Cox’s baseball greatness. We were down in the ninth inning of the deciding game several times in the past years. Each time, the Braves either had the tieing run or go ahead run on base with less than two outs and the heart of the lineup coming up. Each time the game and series was on the line - it was Shefield, Javier, Drew, Chipper, and Andrew at the plate with the opportunity to win the game and series. While most people may miss the significance of this - think about how many managers get to this point of the game only to have run out of players and be left with a relief pitcher at the plate? Cox always manages in such a way that the team is in a position to win. Placing the team in a position to win is the most a manager can do. After that it is up to the players to make the plays. Looking back at all the losses - Cox has always manged the game so the team is placed in a position to win. Folks that call the talk shows demanding Cox’s head - take note - this is greatness in game management - enjoy it while you can.
David - Raleigh NC
By War Eagle
June 3, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this
You cant compare Cox to Higgins, Stengel etc. This is a different Era with briefcase players compared to hard-nose spikes-up players. they had to handled different situation.. Bobby Cox as done a remarkable job with the times as did Higgins and crew in the 20s, through 60`s.IF BC and JS was not around we would be another Kansas City or Detroit.
By Gerry Storm
June 3, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this
I agree that they are both great—usually. And that Bobby leaves his starters in too long. And I haven’t forgiven JS for shedding Justice or the famous trade with the Padres a few years ago when he shed Boone and Klesko (both allstars) and got Veras and Joiner for them. What a stinker, even worse than the recent searches for a closer or at least some decent bull pen help and the giving up on Marquis (for one year of Drew). Lots of duds passing through among the few keepers.
Still, their greatest accomplishment is all the home grown talent on the roster. No one else can compare with the Braves record in this department.
By Larry
June 3, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this
What Bobby Cox needs, especially in a must win game or series, is an offensive and defensive coordinator to call all the plays.
Had these men been in place we’d have 5-6 championships by now, and Turner Field would actually sell out playoffs games.
By Jim
June 3, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this
Bradley is replaceable….
Schultz is replaceable…
DOB is replaceable…
The AJC is replaceable…
By Insane Brave
June 3, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this
I believe that the individuals, which are hating on Bobby Cox, became Braves fans during the current winning times; are bandwagon fans (basebase not being a passion like GA football); or they don’t care for the team. If any of you were Braves fans when they were awful… you know, would watch games when we were 20+ games out of first; looking at the standings knowing we were 20+ games out but still believing that somehow the team would hit its stride and make a playoff run; watching until the last strike was called or last out was made, even though we were down by 5 - 7 runs. If you were a Braves fan during these times, you would appreciate Bobby.
I will absolutely admit that there are times in which I am puzzled about Bobby’s managing (starting the old geezers during the first game of the division playoffs against the Astros). However, I am thankful that at least he has the chance to make such a bonehead mistake - - in the playoffs. If you’re in the playoffs, you’re a winning team. So thank you Bobby Cox, you may not win the World Series every year (only one team will) but you extend our baseball season a couple of weeks longer than 21 other teams, which provides us hope that maybe we can win the Series.
By DaveT
June 3, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this
You are 180 out. It’s not the manager, it’s the players, and our GM is the best. Just look at Joe Torre for proof. A nice guy but VERY average manager until he got the best team on the planet.
You may now remove your nose from Bobby’s nether parts.
By TROTTINGHOME
June 3, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this
CLYDE, YOU MUST NOT KNOW LARRY BOWA
By Insane Brave
June 3, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this
So DaveT, if it is the players, why aren’t the Yankees winning? If we were to follow your argument to a logical conclusion, then we would see that today’s Yankees team is the best that money can buy. However, they have not won a Series in some years. The GM bought all of the right parts but doesn’t it take the manager to make the system work? What about the Braves having three-fourths of its roster made up of rookies (last year)? How about the young Marlins team that won the Series. It takes a coach or manager to make a consistent winner. A final example: Although they may falter at some point during the season, the Tigers picked up Jim Leland to the manage the squad, and they have the best record in the baseball… The same Tigers team that has been one of the worst since ‘84.
By Braves Fan Since 1973
June 3, 2006 10:32 AM | Link to this
If Billy Martin, Tommy LaSorda, Sparky Anderson, Joe Torre or Earl Weaver had the talent Bobby Cox had from 1991-1999, Atlanta would have 3-5 World Championships, instead of one.
Since the Braves’ last World Series appearance in 1999 (seven years ago), I’ve seen a gradual decline in the team’s overall talent which I attribute to the salary constraints by Time Warner. The days of going out and plucking a Fred McGriff or Denny Neagle to add to an already great roster are over. The Braves’ teams were built on rock solid starting pitching. Te current staff doesn’t even come close to Maddux, Glavine, Avery, Smoltz, Neagle, Mercker etc.
Thomson, Sosa , Davies & Ramirez would not have made the teams in 1991-99.
By Don
June 3, 2006 10:43 AM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is one of the greatest managers of all time. It’s indisputable. Ask any GM or manager or player or baseball writer from another city what they think about Bobby Cox as a manager.
I notice that the latest statistic of the Cox-bashers is the 1-14 in the last game BS. To the morons who trot that one out, for the eight teams who make the playoffs, seven lose their last game. Mike Krzyzewski’s record in the last game of NCAA tournaments is something like 3-22. Dean Smith’s was about 2-30. They’re also the 2 winningest coaches in NCAA tournament history, but according to that inane last game statistic they both suck. Enough with that stupidity. If you’re going to post that 1-14, just put “I am an idiot” in parenthesis next to it.
Postseason baseball, particularly since the 3 divisions plus a wildcard format, is mostly a crapshoot. Without a baserunning blunder and with a bounce or two, Cox could easily have 3 or 4 championship rings.
I guess people have short memories and have forgotten how horrible this franchise was for most of its history prior to 1991. What would these idiots be saying if they were Mets or Phillies fans? Let’s see what they’re saying 10 years from now when Schuerholz and Cox are retired and the Braves are just another team. They’ll be talking about these as the good old days.
By Bo
June 3, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
DOB, Why did you start this bull? This is like asking a kid to pick between his Dad and Mom. Both are not perfect but you love them the same. Its not important about BC and JS but any one can be replaced. You just got to find the right guy or gal, did I say that? Gal? Go buy another CD and let us know your take on it. GOOD DAY FOR TWO GAMES.
By Insane Brave
June 3, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this
Braves Fan Since 1973 - These guys also had bullpens and great clutch hitters. They also didn’t have Lonnie Smith or Charlie Leibrandt, and for that matter a closer that would use his third best pitch (a pitch that potentially cost the Braves a ring against the Yankees - Mark Wohlers). Therefore, I totally disagree that these managers would have won more series. Heck, using your thoughts on Torre, he has an incredible team right now and can’t win; How many rings did Earl Weaver win… he had some of the best pitching ever. Sparky Anderson’s Big Red teams were filled with hall of famers; Billy Martin’s teams were filled with hall of famers; As was Lasorda’s teams loaded with talent. And the common thread with all of these guys… their teams had great pitching, great hitting and incredible bullpens. The Braves always seem to be lacking in one area. This is the realm of the GM (to ensure that there aren’t any large deficiencies with any part of the team).
By Rico Carty
June 3, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this
Insane Brave,
Lacking in one area?
This Braves’ team has no speed, no leadoff hitter, no bullpen and after Smoltz and Hudson, there is a big dropoff in the starting pitching. Langerhans is an average player at best, and nothing more than a 4th outfielder at best. LaRoche would be a starter only on sub .500 teams. This current team needs serious upgrades.
Too much of the payroll is tied up in just a few players - Smoltz, Hudson, Andruw, & Chipper. Due to their ages I’d make every effort to keep Andruw & Hudson for the long haul. Money needs to be freed up to bring in some younger players with longterm potential.
By Bo
June 3, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this
Sorry, Mark for calling you DOB, My BAD.
By George Brett
June 3, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this
I’ll take Whitey Herzog, lots of speed, great defense, contact hitting, & fundamentals over Bobby Cox & his good pitching & the 3-run homer mentality any day.
By Larry Guest
June 3, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this
Mark — great piece on the relative values of John and Bobby. Just a historical correction: Take it from this worn-out old sports journalist that the Bear Bryant description, which more accurately was, “He can take your’n and beat his’n,” was first uttered by the equally colorful Florida A&M legend Jake Gaiter and later “borrowed” by Frank Howard, Bum Phillips, et al. Prediction: When John retires, Dayton Moore will return as GM.
By jaybird
June 3, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
OK. I have finally had enough of this insanity. Best manager ever? Puhleeeeeze. Bobby Cox is the worst postseason manager in the history of major league baseball.
Is Bradley trying to tell us that with the starting rotation the Braves had during the decade of the 90’s along with a solid every day lineup Schuerholz put on the field that Lasorda, LaRussa, Pinella, Leyland, Cito Gaston (who won two World Series titles with Toronto), and Tom Kelly (who won two with Minnesota), couldn’t have won more than one World Series with those Braves teams? As John McEnroe would say, “You can’t be serious.”
I could go on for an hour about Cox’s countless strategic blunders ranging from the Leibrant fiascos in ‘91 (Game 6 against the Twins) and ‘92 (Game 6 against the Blue Jays) to his comical performance in Game 4 of the ‘96 World Series against the Yankees when he made enough mistakes to lose five games.
I’m not kidding. It would take ten minutes to detail the various dugout blunders that resulted in the Braves blowing a 6-0 lead in a game that would have given the Braves a commanding 3-1 lead in the Series.
Bradley has blamed the Game 4 loss on Neagle in past columns. The fact of the matter is that when Mike Bilecki relieved Neagle in the top of the 6th with the bases loaded and nobody out with the Braves leading 6-3(Mark, can you explain why it took THAT long to make a pitching change?) Bilecki retired three consecutive batters to preserve the 6-3 lead.
Bilecki then retired three out of four Yankees he faced in the 7th to put the Braves within six outs of a 3-1 series lead. How on earth could the loss be Neagle’s fault when the Braves had a 6-3 lead two innings after his departure?
At that point, a Little League manager would have left Bilecki in until the Yankees at least could put the tying run at the plate. Instead, for reasons still unknown, Cox pulls Bilecki and puts Wohlers in the game an inning early, who blows the lead by giving up the three run homer to Lehritz on a slider, his third best pitch.
Incedibly, there were even more strategic blunders later in the game, but you get the message. Even Chipper Jones has stated on numerous occasions that the Braves were clearly the better team that year.
Ditto for the ‘98 NLCS against the Padres (Klesko and Tucker benched in favor of Batista and Gerald Williams for Game 6 after each hit a key home run to save the Braves from elimination in Game 5.
Cox strategic blunders in Games 5 and 6 in the ‘99 NCLS against the Mets turned a 3-0 series lead into a nail-biting six game affair that wasn’t decided until Kenny Rogers walked in the winning run in the bottom of the 10th.
Although the Braves won Game 6 and advanced to the World Series, they had a huge late inning lead that should have never resulted in the dramatic finish.
Cox’s decision to leave Smolz in the game with a dead arm (despite the fact Joe Morgan commented he was throwing only fast balls that had no velocity) allowed the Mets to tie the game on a three run homer by Piazza.
Finally, comparing Cox to Schuerholz is a joke. Schuerholz was the key component in Kansas City, despite being in one of the five smallest markets, becoming one of the most successful and respected organizations in major league baseball.
No matter if Whitey Herzog, Dick Howser, or whoever was the manager, Schuerholz would put a team on the field that would win games.
Cox parlayed one strong season with Toronto into a five year run as general manager of the Braves that would have to be politely described as unsuccessful. The minute Schuerholz arrived on the scene, the Braves were transformed from a laughingstock into one of the most respected franchises in the game.
Granted, Cox has had great success in the regular season, but the Braves have been the Buffalo Bills of major league baseball over the last two decades. The Braves would have never won the ‘95 Series if the Indians had scored more than like one run in six games (at least it seemed like one run in six games).
By Lee
June 3, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this
oh my god! if i see any of you pull out that worthless statistic one more time im going to explode… “1-14 in the last game of the postseason” thats like saying that the braves are 0-25 in their last 25 losses. they are 12-13 in the last game of a postseason series. here is another amazing stat that i have just dug up. in their last 200 games in which the braves are leading after the end of the 9th inning they are 200-0. who needs a closer with that stat. you people crack me up.
By Lee
June 3, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this
oh my god! if i see any of you pull out that worthless statistic one more time im going to explode… “1-14 in the last game of the postseason” thats like saying that the braves are 0-25 in their last 25 losses. they are 12-13 in the last game of a postseason series. here is another amazing stat that i have just dug up. in their last 200 games in which the braves are leading after the end of the 9th inning they are 200-0. who needs a closer with that stat. you people crack me up.
By Rico Carty
June 3, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
When Bobby Cox was GM of the Braves the first move he made was to trade Steve Bedrosian & top pitching prospect Tommy Greene & top outfield prospect Milt Thompson to Philly for catcher Ozzie Virgil . BRILLIANT ! Thompson hit .300, Greene threw a no-hitter, & Bedrosian won the Cy Young ! Ozzie Virgil was out of baseball the following year.
Other great acquisitions were Jim Presley, Omar Moreno and laundry list of other retreads. It was a last place team the entire 5 years Cox was GM until they replaced him w/Schuerholz.
Having said that the lone shining moment during Cox’s reign was trading Doyle Alexander to Detroit for a hardthrowing, unpolished minor leaguer named John Smoltz. Everybody gets lucky once.
Bottomline is Cox does not know talent ! Thats why he sticks with washed up oldtimers like Jordan, Lockhart, Remlinger.
By airforcestud
June 3, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this
For all of you out there who think that winning ONLY one world series is the mark of a bad manager…how many world series have most of the other managers in the majors won COMBINED??? the fact that Cox has won at least one w/s just solidifies how great of a manager he is. as for the Braves playing in a weak division…how many NL reps in the World Series have come from teh NL East in the last 10 years? Including 3 of the past 10 CHAMPS??? how many other divisions can clame that? one. the AL east bc of the juggernaut that is George Steinbrenner.
By Chico
June 3, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this
Airfarcestud,
Ever hear of the Florida Marlins? I think they are in the NL East. They were’nt too concerned with the division championship like the Braves’ dopey fans are. The Marlins’were the wildcards and took home not one, but TWO World Series trophys, including one from the Yankees. I believe the Braves are 0-2 against the Yankees, including a pitiful, 4-game sweep in the 1999 series.
Having said that, the NL East is usually weak, allowing the Braves to run up the wins that lead them to another playoff loss. The NL champion will come out of the Central (Cards) or the West (Dodgers, DBacks).
By Malted Falcon
June 3, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this
To p, Joe Torre would’ve won more World Series if he managed the Braves? He DID manage the Braves and was fired like he was fired by the Mets and Cardinals and reluctantly hired by the Yankees as a stop-gap. He managed one division title in ATL with a squad he had taken over from Cox and publicly admitted was “Cox’s team” that won the division in ‘82. The next two years he couldn’t out-manage Tommy Lasorda which speaks volumes. Torre is an honest man. HE would tell you Cox is the best manager in baseball. Keep telling me, guys and girls, who you’d rather have as a manager cuz I’m getting some good laughs out of this.
By Malted Falcon
June 3, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this
To P, Joe Torre would’ve won more World Series than Cox if he’d managed the Braves? He DID manage the Braves and was fired like he got fired by the Mets and Cardinals and was then reluctantly hired by the Yankess as a stop-gap. He was just warming the seat til Steinbrenner found a big name manager. Torre won one division title in ATL in ‘82 with a team he inherited from Cox and publicly admitted was “Cox’s team” and then couldn’t out-manage Tommy Lasorda for the next two years and that speaks volumes. Torre is an honest man and if you ask him who the best manager in baseball is, he’ll say Bobby Cox.
By El Sid
June 3, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this
Malted,
Joe Torre in 1982-84 didn’t have a fraction of the talent Cox did from 1991-2005. Joe Torre got the most out of what little he had in Atlanta. Ironically, Murphy’s best years were under Torre, not Cox.
I’d take Sparky Anderson (3 Championship rings), Tommy LaSorda (2 rings) and Whitey Herzog (1 ring), in addition to Tom Kelly (2 rings) and Cito Gaston (2 rings) over Bobby Cox, ANY DAY !
Kelly & Gaston never had talent comparable to what Bobby Cox has had.
By 74 dog
June 3, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this
Mark, you echoed my own comments on the Braves beat blog a few days ago when some no-brainers were trashing Cox for “bad decisions”. You are absolutely correct that he has often won with the less talented team. I saw my first Braves game in 1966,and sat through plenty of them with fewer than 5000 in attendance,because they stunk,the manager stunk,and the GM stunk even worse. a lot of these so-called fans have no idea how blessed we have been since 91.
By HEAD COACH
June 3, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this
Obviously most of the bloggers in here have never played the game much less coached baseball. Major league baseball is a 162 game marathon and nobody does it better than Cox over a 162 game stretch run. The manager gets the credit when a team gets to the playoffs , the players get the blame when they fail in the playoffs and everybody gets the credit when they win it all. Lonnie got deeked in 91 , Wohlers imploded in 96 and Cox should be wearing three rings as we speak. Blame the players for not executing in the playoffs. Educate yourselves people , only knowledgable fans can understand the beauty of this great game.
By jaybird
June 3, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this
Every national league playoff opponent gets plenty of good laughs every year in October after they eliminate the Braves. Let’s see, the latest count shows the Braves have had four consecutive first round playoff exits and no World Series appearances since ‘99.
Do any of you kool-aid drinkers realize in their 18 inning Game 4 loss last year that clinched the series for the Astros, the Braves had a 6-1 LEAD entering the bottom of the 8th?
How on earth does Cox keep Farnsworth in the game after he gives up the grand slam to Berkman, especially considering his repeated failures with the Cubs?
Naturally, Cox leaves him in and Ausmus homers with two outs in the 9th to erase another huge late inning lead and set the stage for another spectacular postseason loss, even by Braves standards.
The bottom line is that you can tell when October rolls around because the Braves offense goes dead every year. As a result, most playoff games are one run affairs, which means Bobby Cox has to make decisions. This scenario usually renders disastrous results.
Playoff baseball is a totally different ballgame from the regular season with much more pressure. It is easy and politically correct for other managers and front office to say Bobby Cox is the best manager in baseball.
However, I can promise you that if you asked those same guys who they would want managing their team in the postseason, Bobby Cox wouldn’t get a single vote.
P.S. Malted Falcon, at least get your facts straight on the reason for the collapse of the Braves in early 80’s.
Ted Turner ignored the advice of Torre and everybody else in the front office when he personally forced the catostrophic trade of Brett Butler for Len Butler.
It was one of the worst transactions in team history and the Braves never recovered from it. In no way can Torre be blamed for that fiasco.
By jaybird
June 3, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this
I meant Len Barker, not Butler.
By Chico
June 3, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
Jaybird,
You are absolutly correct!
Torre was the fallguy for the Brett Butler trade. Under Torre you had guys like Hubbard, Ramirez & even Benedict hitting .290 or better. Once Torre was gone those guys reverted back to their .230 averages. Look it up !
This year, with Leo gone, its obvious who was making the calls regarding the bullpen. Bobby looks lost, and his decisions are horrible. Remmy or Reitsma ? Remmy or Reitsma?
Duh !
By BirdDawg
June 3, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Jaybird,
You are a man after my own heart. I’ve been arguing with these lunkheads for the last month about Bobby Cox.
Not one single team in the game today would want him making a make or break decision for them in October.
But wet nursing a team from April from September, yeah, he’s good at that.
Here’s a sampling of some Bobby Cox tactics:
“Thata boy, Roachy!”
“Thata boy, Frechy!”
Not, “Lay off the balls in the dirt, Frenchy.”
Not,”sit your butt on the bench Roachy, while I call for Saltemachia in Richmond.”
Or you know what, if Bobby Cox were truly as great and smart as you people say, than why isn’t Betemit playing first base right now?
Or second best hitter sits on the bench night after night.
Or, play him at third and put Chipper’s aching bones over at first, because I see Chipper missing a lot of makeable stops at third. Half the time, he doesn’t even try to dive anymore.
But Cox isn’t all that smart.
Most high school - only graduates aren’t.
Most of them are manning the fryers at McDonald’s.
By HEAD COACH
June 3, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this
Jaybird , birddawg , do you always talk to yourself ? your obviously the same blogger using two names , but you are funny.
By Joe Roman
June 3, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this
Thanks Mark, we ALL needed that. This column should be read aloud to all the Cox haters once a day-every day.
By p
June 3, 2006 07:32 PM | Link to this
headcoach,LOL, hows your t-ball team doing. you couldnt be more wrong.
By jaybird
June 3, 2006 08:08 PM | Link to this
Sorry to disappoint you HEAD COACH, but I don’t know birddawg from junkyarddawg to hairydawg. Maybe facts are funny to you, but the Braves’ playoff results aren’t.
Grady Little was fired in Boston for obviously leaving Pedro Martinez in far too long in Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS against the Yankees, which allowed New York to tie the game and later win it in the 11th on Aaron Boone’s homer off Wakefield.
A similar blunder in Atlanta would probably have gotten Little a five year extension. What do you Cox kool-aid drinkers propose? Not have the playoffs and give each division winner a trophy and let everybody go home happy?
As for Joe, this has nothing to do with hating anybody. It just comes down to producing in the post-season and it doesn’t take an Einstein to understand the Braves simply haven’t measured up.
Actually, I have always been a Bradley fan, but this column was so ridiculous that I had to respond.
The facts simply don’t support his case for Cox, although I totally agree that Schuerholz has been the best general manager in major league baseball over the last 30 years and one of the best in the history of the game.
By alvin
June 3, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this
ya’ll sound like a bunch of southern baptists arguing doctrine— a lot of wind is blowing, but no-one is being upheld or uplifted. As a Braves fan for the last four decades or so, I’m very familiar with Atlanta’s indifference, both pre-19991 and since— Joe Torre sucked then, but he’s a genius now; Chipper Jones was an MVP then, but he sucks now; and so on, and so on, and so on. No manager, or GM, has ever accomplished what the Cox/Schuerhoez tandem has, and ya’ll’s constant carping is beginning to sound like a spouse looking for an excuse to sneak around. Good luck.
By bigbravesfan
June 3, 2006 08:59 PM | Link to this
i have been braves fan for very long time and can’t stand to watch this team. when are they going to play like major leaguers and not little leaguers. every member of this team should be embarassed the way they are playing and have played all year long. people say oh you are just spoiled from past seasons that’s bull. they make huge amounts of money and they couldn’t even beat a aa team the way they are playing and it is hard to watch.
By garrrrrry
June 3, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this
Isn’t the saying that he can take your’n and beat his’n? That’s the more impressive thing, right?
By Dave
June 4, 2006 02:22 AM | Link to this
I get as angry about the dreadful losses of the last 15 years as anybody. The Braves lose to whatever wildcard team shows up to play them. They aren’t competitive in post-season. There are more NL teams that have eliminated us than haven’t. We’re everybody’s doormat in post-season.
But I’m hearing a lot of managers names tossed around that didn’t do the wonders people say. Bobby has gotten them to post season for many years. We just all have “Red Sox” syndrome now. It isn’t 1991.
But Billy Martin won exactly one title. Tommy LaSorda won two. Earl Weaver lost three out of four World Series. As soon as he left, the Orioles won the next year. Weaver has one less WS loss than Bobby, and people mark him as a genius?
Let’s look at some “great” managers. Dick Williams won two titles. Ralph Houk won two. Leo Durocher won one. Whitey Herzog won one. Al Dark got one. Bill Rigney didn’t get any. Neither did Gene Mauch.
No one is arguing that the Braves could have and should have done better. But the argument over whether Bobby is as good as these I’ve just mentioned is no argument at all. Most of them were called chokers on occasion too.