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Home > Jeff Schultz > Archives > 2008 > December > 18 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWren selling hope, but so far few are buying
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Once you get past that the general manager in San Diego might be a kook, and that A.J. Burnett says he wanted to be closer to his wife, who doesn’t like to fly, and that Rafael Furcal’s agent acted in a “despicable” and “disgusting” and “unprofessional” manner (source: John Schuerholz), there is one inescapable fact: The Braves went 0-for-3.
They used to be everybody’s destination.
Now they are everybody’s pawn.
They were used by the Padres’ Kevin Towers, who solicited the Braves’ best offer for pitcher Jake Peavy and then tried to weave a better deal with Chicago. They were used by Burnett, who probably would’ve pitched for the Braves if there were a significant difference in salary but preferred New York, which is closer to his Maryland home. They certainly were used by Rafael Furcal’s three-card-Monte playing agent, who only wanted to get comparable money in Los Angeles.
But you know what nobody’s talking about?
Furcal could’ve said, “Forget the Dodgers. I’m signing with the Braves.” He didn’t.
By Braves’ standards, this hasn’t been merely an off offseason. It has been a disaster. If one more general manager or player or agent says no to Frank Wren, I swear Turner Field is dropping into a sinkhole.
Asked about perceptions that everything has gone wrong this winter, Wren said: “I really don’t have that feeling. There are still a lot of things we can do. There are a lot of players out there. A lot of possibilities. We’re not at the finish line yet.”
Yes. There is still time. There are still players. There remains all of that unused payroll. If Wren finds it any consolation, he could really clean up in a three-day sale at Kohl’s with what’s left in his budget.
Do they carry pitchers there?
The Braves have a big problem. They are no longer the remarkable team of 14 consecutive postseasons, five pennants and a World Series. They are the team that has missed the playoffs three consecutive years.
They are the team that lost 90 games last season. They are the team with a thin lineup whose best player (Chipper Jones) will be 37 next season and whose once-sure-gold-prospect (Jeff Francoeur) is struggling to relocate his career.
Yesterday’s starting rotation: Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz-Doesn’t Matter-Who Cares.
Today’s starting rotation: Vazquez-Jurrjens-Good Luck-Still Developing-Pray.
The Braves used to be the product that sold itself. Players have left money on the table to be here. Now, they’re the hard sale.
Wren disputes the characterization. It’s what you would expect him to say. John Schuerholz, the team president, disputes this, though to a point. After praising all facets of the organization, he said: “There might be a few players who say they want to play for a World Series-bound team, and then scratch us off for that. But there are still a lot of good things about playing here.”
The anger over the Furcal non-signing remains palpable. Wren can’t quite believe it. Schuerholz vented, saying he told agent Arn Tellem (Paul Kinzer’s more-powerful partner) that the Braves never will sign another one of their clients.
“We’re a proud organization and we won’t allow ourselves to be treated that way,” he said. “I advised Arn Tellem that whatever players he represents, just scratch us off the list. Take the name of the Atlanta Braves off their speed dial. They can deal with the other 29 clubs and we’ll deal with the other hundred agents.”
Deals fall apart all the time. But these collapses have been high profile and public. The Braves aren’t used to that.
Wren said of the protracted Peavy trade talks, “That went on for six weeks. It was almost like the Florida ballot counting.”
Postscript: Peavy is still in San Diego. Could those talks be reignited?
Wren laughed. “No comment,” he said.
This isn’t Wren’s fault. He is a solid baseball man. He isn’t gullible. He has been aggressive. He simply isn’t dealing from a position of strength.
He says he isn’t feeling extraordinary pressure, adding, “I’d feel pressure if there weren’t still a lot of good players out there. I’d feel pressure if we didn’t have a solid foundation.”
He is selling hope. He has to. Right now, that’s all the Braves have.
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By Geezer
December 18, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
JS’s anger is about half directed at Furcal and his agent for less than ethical dealings but a good half of it is directed at his GM - the goofy smiling Frank Wren - for making his team and the front office the laughing stock of the entire baseball nation for failing to even know how to cut a deal - but he sure smiles pretty… JS needs to trade, dump, fire, run Wren out of town before he makes another stupid move and makes us look even worse! Send him back to Baltimore!!!
By JIm H.
December 18, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
No Jeff…..keep up with the times. It’s like Minnesota ballot counting (you know the way that immoral piece of crap Al Franken is trying to steal that Senate election up there!).
By fieldofdreams
December 18, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
Well put: Even our beloved Smolt-zeus seems intent on using Atlanta to work the free agent market, in search of a new home for his lightning bolts. The larger issue, however, is how to handle what will obviously be another down season; hopefully we’ll rebuild with young players who have the upside and mentality to become champions, and want to wear the Tomahawk, instead of patching together has beens, like Vasquez and Glavine.
By Miserable Braves Fan
December 18, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this
If you were a free agent,would you want to play for the Braves? The Braves are in shambles. Only one decent starting pitcher. No one to protect Chipper in the lineup. A team that loss 90 games in 2008 and headed in the direction of 100 losses in 2009. A smart organization would have secured Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux for at least 10 years back in 2001. Instead, the Braves let all but Smoltz go to other teams. The Braves quit developing replacements for these three workhorses. The Braves are now paying for this oversight. Folks! it will be a long time before you see the Braves in the post season again. They have regressed to mediocrity and deserve what is happening to them.
By Braves Mom
December 18, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this
Are we sure Furcal’s agent’s name isn’t really Boras? I wish Furcal the same type of season Andruw had last season when he took the big money.
Good for JS for blasting the agency and vowing never to deal with them again. BUT, Wren needs to get busy and get somethihng done.
As much as I love the game, it’s getting a little hard to remain a fan.
I just saw Sabathia and Burnett on ESPN being introduced as Yankees, they both claimed the only reason they signed with the Yankees is they wanted to be on a play-off bound team—yeah right!
I’m sure it had NOTHING to do with the approximate combined 200 million they are being paid by the Yankees huh?
I hate to sound so sour about the whole thing, but it just seems it is becoming more and more about money to the players, not loyalty or love of the game. I’ve even read Smoltz might be looking around for more money—unbelievable.
And before someone aruges anyone would take the job that pays the most money too, that argument doesn’t work with me. I’m a pretty smart chick and I’m an educator. I certainly could probably find a job making more money, but I choose to do a job I love and help kids, that argument doesn’t work with me.
It would be nice in this tough economy to see players remain loyal to their fans, and not try and get the biggest contract out there.
By journalist jimmy smith
December 18, 2008 7:10 PM | Link to this
selling soap? it’s that bad? well, let’s hope wren is better at selling soap than at signing players.
“what?” what’s that, baby seal?”
“selling hope, not soap?”
someohow, it doesn’t matter.
looks like more bobby-ball without the players to play bobby-ball.
oh, the humanity!
By braves
December 18, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this
Yawn!!!! Its baseball. Who cares? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Baracked the Vote!
December 18, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
This has been coming for a long time and just now being realized. any prospects with any talent at all were dealt to bring in Drew, Tex, and others. Furcal and A. Jones walked with no compensation but draft picks. Plus, the ownership isn’t spending money. you reap what you sow Schuerholz. the Braves, in the 90s were built through the farm system with a few key free agent signings or timely trades. The Braves are going retro next season to 1979 (66-94) and who was the manager then? Booby Cox!
By Hawes
December 18, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
Go get Randy Johnson. He should last until he gets his 300th win. By that time, Smoltz should be ready to pitch again.
Unit/Smoltz hybrid zombie ace.
By Bo
December 18, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this
I’m not sure but don’t our SS Bro. Esco have the same agent? If he does what happens now? Will Esco change agents are will Braves trade him. Could you Jeff put out a list of all Furcals agents players?
By Marc
December 18, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
Good article, very good in fact. Pretty much said all the things I was thinking myself in regards to the current off season “situation”.
Nothing more to add really, except a golf clap to J.S. for ripping those guys a new one. John is one of the most respected figures in baseball today, that’s one distinct advantage we have, and him making those comments will have an impact.
Bottom line, you don’t have to sign with us, but you better not blatantly screw us cause we have the influence and respect to bite back.
By Al Franken
December 18, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
Jim, I”ve been stealing all my life, why should I change now.
By GMM
December 18, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
Only Brave is Peter Moylan
By Mike
December 18, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
So many whiners. Whine, whine, whine. Wren has so many plans and backup plans and backup to the backup, you cannot pretend to know. Stop thinking you are a general manager and you know what is going on. JS knows what is happening and he is behind Wren all the way. SO we may have a hard time getting back to 1st. SO, what of it. We all saw something like this coming. We are down but we will be back. Maybe it will take a different route. But it will happen in spite of the WHINERS.
By Bo
December 18, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Thanks GMM. How will they deal with Peter.
I agree that things look bad..but its something that a couple trades could turn around. Have faith and Merry Christmas.
By The_Future
December 18, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this
Bring up Heyward, bring up Schafer, bring up Hanson.
Time to stop the nonsense and go young….
By lawton
December 18, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
Lots of bad moves have put the braves in this situation. One move that is NEVER talked about is keeping Chipper Jones as long as they have. He shouldve been gone a long time ago for a top pitcher. They couldve moved Escobar to third, start rebuilding with the pitching staff, and got the bats later. You ALWAYS build your defense (pitching) first.
By Don
December 18, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this
The people who bash Wren absolutely amaze me. He has made some excellent trades. Even his so called “bad trades”, such as Kotsay for Devine, are not really that bad and were completely understandable given the circumstances.
I trust Wren on trades more than JS, who I still think is one of the better GM’s in history. Wren seems to think longer term.
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
Mike; Is your last name Wren?
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Jeff — Any word whether Furcal’s agent actually uttered the phrase “My word is stronger than oak” with Wren?
Schuerholz, despite his public statements to the contrary knows how things work. A deal isn’t a deal till it’s signed, sealed, and Billy Donovan-proofed.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this
Baeball is a game of moments. You cannot predict what will happen in any teams future, unless the writing is on the wall, like a team(Padres) starting from scratch. Unless Wren announces that the Braves are “rebuilding”, the negative idiots need to shut the f—- up!
Do any of you really think Wren won’t put a competitive team on the field in what could be Bobby’s last year? Uhhhh..NO! Get Dye-love em, get Sheets-don’t like em that much, but he should shut-up the Wren bashers,maybe. Re-sign Mr. “I need attention” Smoltz and go from there.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 8:30 PM | Link to this
lawton,NO.. they shouldn’t have traded Chipper, you idiot! He’s our Jeter, but better and $6-7 mill. cheaper! Yes, you start with pitching and defense… did you think of that all by yourself? Quit posting stupid a* sh-!!
By JDK
December 18, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
You people are unreal. Wren has done a fine job, including absolutely heisting Detroit for Jurrjens. He’s not going to make a rash move to appease the haters; instead, he’s being patient, with his offseason options, and with our next wave of talent, which, by the way, was the recipe we used to start our great run.
You people absolutely amaze me in your childlike assessments. Give Wren a break - I guarantee he does a stellar job when all’s said and done.
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this
Just posted on AJC sports page response from Wasserman Group entitled Agent’s statement on dealing with Braves Obviously after reading that it is clear that Wren does not know what he is doing…he sure did not have a signed contract when he started leaking to sources that Furcal was coming (don’t really care one way or the other about Furcal - just about Wren’s inept leadership)…JS was just posturing trying to take away some of the heat off of his guy…bottom line when it serves them again, they will deal with this group again for a player…..unless Wren is still in charge in that case we may never see another deal get done.
By Tami
December 18, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
Geez…who in their right mind could ever expect a MLB agent to deal ethically?? They work for the player and care very little about the teams they deal with. Kinzer evidently did what he needed to do for Raffy. So, what? The Braves still have a very capable SS on the team. Instead of wringing his hands, Wren should STOP giving away the minor league talent and allow them to develop. We might even find there’s a gem or two from within the organization to plug up the holes that this offseason’s free agency may not. I’m still VERY disappointed in the Flowers for Vazquez deal.
My message to Scheurholz & Wren is to stop whining and let’s work with what we’ve got. Furcal’s back is iffy anyway, and he’s VERY likely to be back on the DL by midseason. Then what? The Braves can certainly have the last laugh on that NON-deal.
By CJ
December 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
Ted Striker- Yes JS knows how the business runs and that is why he is so p** off about the sh#$ they just pulled. Evidently there are certain ways that these deals go down and everyone plays by those rules whether he signed or not. They requested the term sheet which is what they say is the final step and you don’t request it unless your going to accept the offer, not to use it for leverage against another team.
By Frank
December 18, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
It appears to me that Frank Wren is getting an expensive lesson in front office management at the Braves expense. I expect him to next declare the Braves will be entering a fast pitch softball league in 2009 until he can put together some new deals.
By Jeff Schultz
December 18, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
Hi all. Checking in. Geezer: I gotta disagree with you. I think Frank Wren’s a smart guy who has been dealt a bad hand. I’m not saying he’ll ever be Schuerholz’ equal. But this is more about circumstances than anything Wren could control. … Jim H: I keep up. But the Florida line was Frank’s quote, not my line. (Did you know Al Franken used to write for Saturday Night Live? What a country.) … To Several About Smoltz: I don’t think he’s going anywhere. I’m not even sure he’ll pitch again but if he does I still believe it’ll be here. We’ll see. …. Bo: For some reason I can’t copy and paste the client list for the Wasserman Media Group. But if you go to the firm’s website (http://www.wmgllc.com), then click the “management” link and then “baseball” the list will come up. A few names: Chase Utley, Aramis Ramirez, Francisco Rodriguez, Jason Giambi. Kind of funny: They also list Sammy Sosa. …. By The Future. There’s a good chance that’s exactly where the Braves will end up. …. Ted Striker: Movie reference. Jerry Maguire. Got it. …. I’ll check in later. Sincerely, The Other JS.
By shugie
December 18, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this
you should rename your column “I am a brainless biatch”
If you honestly blame Mr Wren for any of this than I am a dogs brekky
By Jeff Schultz
December 18, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
Shugle: Did you read this paragraph? This isn’t Wren’s fault. He is a solid baseball man. He isn’t gullible. He has been aggressive. He simply isn’t dealing from a position of strength.
By P
December 18, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
hey maybe Tellem and Dany Heatly and Bobby Petrino can all go to a party with Furcal now and Furcal can drive…. right off Chavez Ravine.
I hope the guy is hurt the entire season and they enjoy all of the money they have wasted on Andrew Jones too.
The Braves will be lucky to win 70 games this year. Time to cut ticket prices and act like the average to bad team that we are. Back to the 80’s.
Last season the question was… Did the braves have money to spend? The answer is… yes they have some money to spend but not a lot.
The new problem.
Thier money is worthless.
By Kenneth Simpson
December 18, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
The whole Furcal thinks stinks. I don’t blame JS for what he said about not signing any free agents represented by the agency that Furcal has. This whole idea that these stupid free agents say they went to the team to get to the playoffs is stupid. They only go for the money and that is all. CC and AJ say they went to the Yankees to get into the playoffs. How stupid of them. I wonder if the 250 million paid to these clowns had anything to do with it. They would have went to the worse team in the majors for the most money and we the fans have sense enough to realize that. I hope CC and AJ along with Furcal flop in 09. Maybe Furcal will have the same season that AJ had in LA. Good Riddance to him and his lying agents. I am glad they didn’t sign Furcal and his back trouble but the way it was handled was absurb and underhanded.
By waterst
December 18, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Screw the agents, they are liars. It’s all about the money. If JS said they got screwed and lied to, they probably did.
The Braves need to suck it up and not worry about big-name free agents. Keep your prospects and build another powerhouse.
By JDK
December 18, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Is this offseason such a tragedy? I think not. Is it tragic that Wren refused to give up the farm for Jake? The package he offered, highlighted by Yunel and Gorkys was enough, especially considering SD’s lack of leverage.
Is it tragic that Wren didn’t break the bank - and handicapp ourselves for years to come - for a nice but inconsistent and injury prone piece?
Is it tragic that Wren was spurned by Raffy, when we already have a burgeoning stud at SS, and potentially 2B?
Hardly. We’ve still got a long way to go this offseason - give the man who stole Jurrjens, and turned Tex into a young 1B with untapped upside - a chance to do this thing right.
By Kris in NC
December 18, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this
It seems Kinzer is the goat in all of this, if you read Buster Olney’s blog on ESPN.com. It seems he took the offer sheet sent by Wren, shopped it to the Dodgers. The offer sheet, which was signed by Wren, laid out the “ground work” for the deal. It was even reported that the Dodgers would not guarantee a 3rd year for Furcal. The same deal the Braves put on the table for Furcal is the same deal, except some small changes in the vested option year, that the Dodgers gave him. Sounds a little fishy to me.
You never hear JS come out and publicly say anything against an agent or another GM but what Kinzer did was down right wrong. For Tellum to put out that 7 point nonsense makes me want to puke. Tellum needs to find out if Kinzer actually took the offer sheet and “shopped” it to the Dodgers and went back to the Braves to up the offer. Don’t tell the Braves they need to play by the rules when your own employee don’t play by the rules. Rival GM’s are standing by JS and Wren because they are saying when you send a offer sheet is close to a deal as you can get. Read Olney’s blog, it will explain it.
This won’t be the end of this. Selig needs to investigate whether Kinzer did anything wrong in regards to taking the offer sheet and showing it to the Dodgers when it was signed by Wren. Who knows all of it but someone ain’t speaking the truth here? Kinzer ain’t speaking and JS and FW are. Makes ya wonder why Kinzer ain’t talking.
By Mr Truth
December 18, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this
Who cares?!? We just secured CPJ!! THWG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Najeh Davenpoop
December 18, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Honestly I’d rather see the Braves just gut the roster of all the highly-paid veterans, 1997 Marlins-style, restock the farm system, and come back in a year or two with a true contender. Does anyone really think this team is gonna contend with the Mets and Phillies even if we do get Peavy? When your best offensive player misses at least a month’s worth of games every year? When you still don’t really have a true leadoff hitter?
I don’t want to be the hater here. It’s just as painful to me as it is to anyone else that the Braves are not contenders anymore. But I don’t see how it’s a good business model in the MLB, when you are operating with a medium-sized payroll, to rely on established, injury-prone veterans to carry you to the postseason while mortgaging your farm system to do so. I’d really rather see us reside in the cellar a couple of years if that’s what it takes to develop some young talent, instead of trying to fool ourselves into thinking we are only a piece or two away from contending right now.
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this
Fact - No signed contract - nothing enforceable - who is responsible for obtaining document - Frank Wren
Fact - Mr Wren was (a)misled, (b)duped, (c)played, (d)all of the above - who is at the helm - Frank Wren
For whatever he has done in the past or will do in the future for the Braves - in this incident, Mr. Wren is definitely Bush League.
By gerry
December 18, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this
Run Wren out of town’our proud Braves are the laughing stock of baseball
By gerry
December 18, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this
Run Wren out of town’our proud Braves are the laughing stock of baseball
By JDK
December 18, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
Again I ask you people:
How has Wren failed? For those of you upset about Flowers - let’s remember, he’s a prospect, one who will undoubtedly struggle at the big league level for quite a time; and, with our current makeup, had nowhere to go. Javy V is still relatively young, and an absolute horse, which means something considering our all-DL staff.
Is our off-season thus far really so tragic?
Use your heads people!
By LTBravesFan
December 18, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry but didnt Tellem tell Schuerholz that this was Kinzer’s deal and that he didnt have anything to do with.. how can he release a statements of what happened?
By Geezer
December 18, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
JDK In this Furcal deal - whether you wanted him or not…as far as “the deal” “the contract” your beloved Mr. Wren was Out “Played” He is not the calibre of leader that we are accustomed to - that we had in JS.
In the world of contracts - He who has a SIGNED CONTRACT wins.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this
gerry, our Braves have become the laughing stock of baseball? Why, because some teenager with a computer on another teams blog says so? ANSWER ME….
I’m so sick of the same old boring a* talk from people who think they know everything! If you really think that, just turn away from everything that has to do with sports! It’s for mature people that love their team no matter what a silly teeny-bopper says about your team…GROW UP!!!
By Jt
December 18, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this
Wren is right! Frankly, he has almost made 2 bad deals-AJ Burnett(I wanted him) and Furcal. Desperation leads to bad deals. NEVER deal from a position of desperation or great need- rebuilding the Braves is not a sprint-it’s a marathon- we are used to 14 straight years. Burnett is a DL waiting to happen. Over the last 8 years, Sheets has averaged more SO. IP, and lower ERA. The point being is that AJ Burnett is too risky for that much money. He will become for the NYY, another Randy Johnson, Jared Wright, etc- pick one. The Yanks did us a favor. The Braves do not need a complete rebuilding-they have some definite parts- they have some specific areas that need shoring up. The signing of Furcal is also risky for the amount of money. I understand the so called flexibility it supposedly would give the Braves. Nah. It tied up money in a SS and lead-off that was not needed. What about CF? Anderson, Shaffer, Blanco? What is going to happen there? Their value is diminished if they cannot hit leadoff. The Braves have pieces. They also have assets. The Padres are going to rue the day they did not take the Braves offer for Peavy. Be patient, Frank Wren. Do not give away the farm to satisfy the denizens or make a splash.
This is a marathon-not a sprint!
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren don’t have the tools to do what he really wants to do.
If anyone is to blame, it’s Liberty freakin’ Media! I swear, they have to be the worst owners in baseball.
At first, I was wanting to blame Wren for all of this, but then after seeing the events of the past few weeks transpire, I realize it’s the whole money thing.
Liberty Media is a cancer on the Braves organization, and I can just about guarantee you that no decent ballplayer will come within a f@rt’s distance of this organization as long as those tight-sphinctered you know whats sell the team.
That was in a nutshell, my friends.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren don’t have the tools to do what he really wants to do.
If anyone is to blame, it’s Liberty freakin’ Media! I swear, they have to be the worst owners in baseball.
At first, I was wanting to blame Wren for all of this, but then after seeing the events of the past few weeks transpire, I realize it’s the whole money thing.
Liberty Media is a cancer on the Braves organization, and I can just about guarantee you that no decent ballplayer will come within a f@rt’s distance of this organization as long as those tight-sphinctered you know whats sell the team.
That was in a nutshell, my friends.
By Tom
December 18, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this
Haven’t read the post above. However the Braves need to acknowledge we are 0 for ? We can discuss the rationale of our “targets” and there are ample arguments that we should NOT have targeted thoses we did- BUT WE DID! And struck out!!!!! So we failed!! Right or wrong the current regime (WREN) failed. Ethics right or wrong? Failure!! Get someone who can get something done.
By Brian
December 18, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Until Dye/ Sheets/ Peavy/ Perez/ Lowe/ Dunn/ Burrell/ Kawakami/ Garland/ Greinke or any other guy that the Braves can get have signed with another team, we still have a shot in ‘09!
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this
sorry…I meant that people want come here UNTIL LM sells the team…oooppss
By Ted Striker
December 18, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
Najeh, I concur. The Bravos should bargain for what they can get from the HAVES. And bear their lumps while they are still the HAVE-NOTS.
How bad are the Braves? They would probably fall short of winning a championship in 2009 even if they wandered into the second coming of Cy Young and Shoeless Joe Jackson.
It weren’t always this way. When the Teixeira trade went down, I thought the Braves were one player away from the playoffs. And, yes, even the World Series.
I still believe that. However, the player just wasn’t Tex, even though he seemed the best bet at the time. Truth be told, the trade gave me flashbacks of Vikings-Cowboys and Herschel Walker. The price just seemed way too steep. But, I also recall thinking “if Tex doesn’t get this team over the hump, nothing will.”
Geeze, I wasn’t counting on “nothing” to come up. But, as Ron Polk used to say — before he was saying “take my name off the darn stadium” – “that’s baseball.”
By JDK
December 18, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
Tom - it’s not failure when you have reasonable limits as to what you’re willing to do. Would you consider Wren a success if we buckled and included Hanson in the deal for Jake? $100 million for AJ?
He held his ground and will continue to seek deals that make sense. That’s not failure, that’s savvy.
By Dixie Dawg
December 18, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
I wonder why the Braves are reluctant to start rebuilding?
By Buffalo Bills Plus One
December 18, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
Ultimate oxymoron—“Remarkable team of 14 consecutive postseasons, 5 pennants and A!!!!!!! World Series Win”. Mull that statement in your mind. 14!!!!!!! Consecutive Post Season appearances and 1!!!!!!!!! World Championship. Let me put this in a football context. Let’s say the Atlanta Falcons made the playoffs 14 years in a row, 5 times advanced to the Super Bowl and the ONLY Super Bowl they won was 3 years into their run. Let’s say the Falcons defense consisted of 3 players who were SURE Hall of Fame Candidates, let’s also say the offense was very good and had arguably one of the greatest running backs to ever play the game. Now TRUTHFULLY—How would you REALLY feel after 11 years of not being able to raise the Lombardi Trophy while watching EXPANSION teams win the Lombardi Trophy. Would you consider the Falcons remarkable or would you be saying something far different?? Tell the TRUTH.
By SEH
December 18, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
I liked the genius who said the Braves have kept Chipper too long. After all, all he does is hit .300+, 20-30 HR, and drive in 90-100 runs EVERY year (plus the fact that he got robbed in the Gold Glove vote in ‘07). And he’s altered his contract at least twice to make more money available for the team. He IS the Braves. Yeah, good call…get rid of that guy.
By DTB
December 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
GOOD NEWS Spring training and opening day will be here regardless of the roster and hope will SPRING eternal. Give management, Bobby Cox and his staff the benefit of the doubt. They know what it takes to win.
By Weldon
December 18, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
Good article, Schultz. This really isn’t Wren’s fault, it’s just some bad breaks and the faltering prestige of the Braves franchise.
By Leo Rimando
December 18, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this
People — get your facts straight.
Wren did not make this deal public while negotiating with Kinzer. In fact it was Kinzer himself who mentioned to other GMs that a deal with the Braves was close at hand.It was Kinzer who leaked the deal. Think about it folks! ..their was no advantage for the Braves to go public with the deal. ..it was in their best interest to keep it to themselves.. Kinzer however had motive to start running his mouth to everyone about the deal.. ..it’s clear he intentionally leaked the fact that they were so close to a deal with the Braves.. Why do think the Dodgers promptly changed their tune about Furcal? Remember they were initially offering only a 2 yr contract. If Kinzer had kept it to himself on how close we were to finalizing the deal, we wouldve swooped in and stolen Furcal from everyone. Instead, Kinzer was the one who started publicizing our deal to other GMs, which is how it then got leaked to the media.
Kinzer leaked our pending deal, then used the framework of our deal to negotiate with the Dodgers.
Additionally, I would like to think that Furcal had no knowledge of how Kinzer was playing his hand. But sadly, Furcal still had the final say on where he was headed. Furcal told Wren himself that he was okay with switching to 2b, so ultimately it seems he preferred living in LA more than coming back to ATL. Don’t tell me it was the money Furcal, cause then I’d say you’re an idiot. The money he accepted from LA was similarl close to the money we offered. You factor in cost of living and 10 million in LA is actually less then 10 million in Atlanta. So you’d either be a liar or an idiot if ultlimately say it was the money.
Before this week, I was a fan of yours Mr. Furcal. Now I hope you sell your Atlanta home and stay in LA permanently.
I will boo every plate appearance you make when you play the Braves.
I hope Chipper, Smoltz, and Glavine give you a phone call to find out if you even realize what you did.
By Leo Rimando
December 18, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this
People — get your facts straight.
Wren did not make this deal public while negotiating with Kinzer. In fact it was Kinzer himself who mentioned to other GMs that a deal with the Braves was close at hand.It was Kinzer who leaked the deal. Think about it folks! ..their was no advantage for the Braves to go public with the deal. ..it was in their best interest to keep it to themselves.. Kinzer however had motive to start running his mouth to everyone about the deal.. ..it’s clear he intentionally leaked the fact that they were so close to a deal with the Braves.. Why do think the Dodgers promptly changed their tune about Furcal? Remember they were initially offering only a 2 yr contract. If Kinzer had kept it to himself on how close we were to finalizing the deal, we wouldve swooped in and stolen Furcal from everyone. Instead, Kinzer was the one who started publicizing our deal to other GMs, which is how it then got leaked to the media.
Kinzer leaked our pending deal, then used the framework of our deal to negotiate with the Dodgers.
Additionally, I would like to think that Furcal had no knowledge of how Kinzer was playing his hand. But sadly, Furcal still had the final say on where he was headed. Furcal told Wren himself that he was okay with switching to 2b, so ultimately it seems he preferred living in LA more than coming back to ATL. Don’t tell me it was the money Furcal, cause then I’d say you’re an idiot. The money he accepted from LA was similarl close to the money we offered. You factor in cost of living and 10 million in LA is actually less then 10 million in Atlanta. So you’d either be a liar or an idiot if ultlimately say it was the money.
Before this week, I was a fan of yours Mr. Furcal. Now I hope you sell your Atlanta home and stay in LA permanently.
I will boo every plate appearance you make when you play the Braves.
I hope Chipper, Smoltz, and Glavine give you a phone call to find out if you even realize what you did.
By Najeh Davenpoop
December 19, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this
“Furcal could’ve said, “Forget the Dodgers. I’m signing with the Braves.” He didn’t.”
I will boo Furcal when he returns as well, but at the same time, if he was smart enough to handle his own business he wouldn’t be forking over chunks of his paycheck to an agent in the first place. The truth is a lot of these athletes simply are not bright enough to entrust these decisions to themselves, and are perfectly content with letting their agents make all the important decisions in their lives. I blame the agent first before I blame the player in this situation.
“When the Teixeira trade went down, I thought the Braves were one player away from the playoffs. And, yes, even the World Series.”
I felt that way too, but I thought we should have gone after a pitcher instead of another bat. But that’s the thing — as over the hill and injury-prone as many of our highly paid key players are, even the year and a half that separate us from the Teixeira trade are an eternity as far as our window of opportunity is concerned.
By Barnesy
December 19, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this
It’s apparent Frank can’t get it done. If he were at Home Depot, he would have his millions and be moving down the road. Kinzer gave him a schooling with in state tuition. The organization is a shameful shadow of what it once was. Keep raising the ticket prices for the 4A prospects on the field. It is obvious that it is time for a change.
By JKP
December 19, 2008 1:11 AM | Link to this
Burnett was not worth a 5 year commitment. Furcal was not worth a 4 year commitment. Peavy was not worth Yunel Escobar and Tommy Hanson. The Braves need to accept that they are in a rebuilding phase. I’m fine with that. Wren did a good job of not selling the farm.
By Tsu Yuan Nieh
December 19, 2008 4:04 AM | Link to this
Guys who call themselves Braves fan please stop saying things “they will be lucky to win 70 games” or “Chipper is not performing, trade him” or “not seeing playoffs for long time” or “Javy is going to suck no matter what”. Those kinds of comments should appear in mid of season when things are bad enough to give up playoff hope.
IMHO, the biggest reason Braves had such a bad record is that pitching and hitting is not coherent. Things that cause it maybe injuries (2008), pen blown games (2006) or bad rotation (2007). There are many things can be analysed such as too many close game loses, bad hitting when runner on SP or big innings gave up to opponents.
The thing is that there are periods Braves can hold them together and play good baseball that tells me Braves was never a bad team. It was just partly bad luck and the fact that other teams were better in certain aspects. The only bad team was the second half of 2008, which was truly the low point since 1990.
I am a Braves fan and I believe they just need to figure out a way to fix things. That should be objectives to be set in the beginning of the year. For example, hitting more consistently when runner on SP (fix mechanics, watch video to see if there are any changes when they are under pressure), keep pen and rotation healthy (Bobby always did a good job, last year was just ridiculous.) Braves still have array of decent players IMO, all it takes is a few streaks to boost up their confidence.
I don’t like Wren because he did not do anything to save the team when Braves were going down hill in 2008. I believe all it takes is just a trade for a few pitchers to make up the absence of Smoltz and Hampton and he could not do anything during the season. Trading away Tex and everything were just abysmal. However, I think he made a few good decisions to gamble on some deals. They don’t look clever but at least he is trying. However, he did not spend stupid money and he did not give up too many prospects so I think he is following a principle. That is not a bad thing.
I say we should give Braves and Wren a chance to play it out in 2009. I think 2009 should be a good season. If Braves does not fall behind too far, Wren can still make deals to improve the team in the mid of season. If he did something stupid again or simply doing nothing when he can do something, then I support to fire him. Until then, I want to see the Braves play first.
By Steverino
December 19, 2008 7:17 AM | Link to this
Good grief, Charlie Brown. I love this game. But I swear to you the new birds on the block, Falcons and Hawks, are now worthy, and the Tomahawks? The swagger is gone and the arrogance is only an attempt to hide the “deer in headlights” reality.
By LivininAL
December 19, 2008 7:25 AM | Link to this
I totally understand the Brave’s nation displeasure with the Furcal mess, but for Schuerholz to refuse to deal with them in the future could be self defeating. After refusing to deal with Boras earlier, we begin to limit our possibilities at our own expense. Call them what they are and move on, screw’em back in the future! Get Sheets and Dye for 2 years and get on with it! We are gonna get a few breaks this season that did not happen last year. This past year’s awful experience for all our developing guys KJ, Esco, French, Kotch, McCann are gonna make them better this year. Im hoping last year lights a fire for this year! To Mr Wren keep on working! Go Braves!..& Best wishes to any team opposing the Yankees!
By mike
December 19, 2008 7:26 AM | Link to this
Sports writers and fans. Two groups of folks with no talent to play the game but have plenty of mouth to say what players owe them. Both groups need to get a life.
By JR
December 19, 2008 7:30 AM | Link to this
I definitely say when Furcal comes to bat we need to buzz the tower with something about 95 mph. And all this crap Tellem said about the CBA and that the Braves can’t deny their player is a load of BS, if the Braves don’t want to sign any of these players repped by this agency no where it says we have to. We can listen to there brief song and dance and tell them don’t let the door knob hit ya where the good Lord split ya
By Beowulf
December 19, 2008 7:52 AM | Link to this
The Braves still have a better name than 20+ other teams out there. We have never been the destination NY or LA was, b/c we don’t have the endorsement money that comes with a megalopolis. We had our team strength and Bobby’s popularity. He is retiring soon, that may have a bit to do with it. But up to this point, only a few FA’s have signed. Only a couple of moderate trades, no blockbusters. Teams and players are being conservative right now, with the exception of the Yankees of course. I would not say the Braves name is tarnished, as any idiot with resources can investigate and see they still have a prime farm team and some key players in at the bigs already. They may not be full contenders this year, but that would only be a hindrance for somebody who is fragile or only getting a 1-year deal. This team could be sensational within a year or two, with the players they have poised to come up, I just don’t see any of the failures thus far to be blamed on lack of potential competitiveness.
Peavy did not come because Towers wanted our future ace. AJ wanted his wife to be closer to home. And Furcal has unethical agents. We didn’t NEED any of those guys particularly. We have general needs that can still be filled with the remaining FAs or with trades.
By LivininAL
December 19, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this
Hey Mike, -folks with no talent to play the game but have plenty of mouth to say what players owe them. This is a blog and an opportunity for people to share their opinions; I may not agree with some opinions, but, hey like armpits, everyone has a couple amd many stink. Yet, if there were no fans then those talented guys could not play and have to get a real job.
By LivininAL
December 19, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
My concern related to the way we are doing business is putting our own back to the wall. If we refuse to deal again with people who tick us (Boras, Towers, Kinzer, and who next?)then we limit ourselves at our own expense. We may not like them but are there to stay. We know wars cause more casualties than negotiations, we all have to deal with the undsirables in life.
By Go Bravos
December 19, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
I like the notion of going the Tampa Bay route. Forget the FA and retool for the future in 2 to 3 years…the excitement of young players from the farm..instead of taking on the greedy FAs and/or loosing some top prospects through trades! Thoughts?
By Edward Teach
December 19, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this
So Mr. Schultz, you don’t write about the Braves since like, July, and you think you can just waltz back into our lives?
By Ben
December 19, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
In my opinion, this should be viewed as a good thing. The Braves had one the greatest runs in the history of baseball and have believed themselves to be immune from a downturn. These days the only two teams that have the money to be immune are the Yanks and the Sox and even that doesn’t guarantee making the playoffs. Maybe this kind of public humiliation will put the fire back in the Brave front office. We have GIVEN away great propects the last few years that we could’ve built on. That’s how we did it in the early 90’s and that’s what it’s going to take again. Build around great players from the farm system and accentuate with free agents.
By Cox's Running Game
December 19, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
Schultz writes as if the Bravos were more than a 550 team. That’s the problem with expansion. Every team is mediocre. IF the braves win 5.5 games out of ten, then they make the post season. So what? They still stink.
Cox’s running game was always non existent. He never knew when to pull a pitcher, or when to bunt, or steal, or hit and run, or anything. I have no respect for any american who doesn’t know when to walk a guy.
He mostly just sat there thinking of ways to punch out his wife without getting caught, (the rat).
Check out the percentage of won/loss of all braves games for the past eight years, and you tell me if they’re a dynasty, or a travesty.
By Go Bravos
December 19, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
I like the notion of going the Tampa Bay route. Forget the FA and retool for the future in 2 to 3 years…the excitement of young players from the farm..instead of taking on the greedy FAs and/or loosing some top prospects through trades! Thoughts?
By Jeff Schultz
December 19, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Kris in KC Without having spoken to Kinzer or been on the inside of this, I suspect you’re correct. I think Kinzer did something his boss, Arn Tellem, wouldn’t have wanted him to do. It’ll be interesting to see if there’s any ramifications – that is, whether Tellem fires him. …. By the way, Schuerholz was very public of his criticism of agent Scott Boros when he was a GM. Their verbal battles were legendary …. Dixie Dawg: I don’t think Liberty Media has anything to do with this. The Braves have a budget but they’re TRYING to spend money right now, not trimming payroll. …. Edward Teach: I think it’s more of a Foxtrot than a waltz. …. JS
By Richard
December 19, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Someone correct me if I am wrong. The Pirates and Scott Boras had a disagreement this past summer over the wording of a SIGNED contract btw Boras and the Pirates and that was approved by MLB. This issue almost went to arbitration but all parties agreed. Lesson here for everyone: HAVE A SIGNED CONTRACT!
By Rick Long
December 19, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
Geezer and others with the same view that a deal is not a deal until both sign off is what is wrong with today’s society. I didn’t see anything in Kellem’s 7 point “rebuttal” denying that Kinzer told Wren to prepare an offer sheet and that Wren did, signed it and sent it to him for signature by Furcal. Sounds like an agreement to me. Moreover, as a 30 year practicing attorney, I can tell you that whenever the party who claims that no agreement was reached with another party defends his or her position by relying upon a “letter of the law” argument (i.e. not signed by both parties), this is an outright admission that he or she acted unethically which, in my judgment, means unprofessionally as well.
Having said all that and notwithstanding his understandable anger, I am surprised that someone with Schuerholz’s experience would go public with this. He of all people should know that you can’t win a you know what contest (rhymes with hissing) with a bunch of snakes.
Most importantly, none of this ultimately changes the fact that, for whatever reasons, Wren has basically laid a big goose egg so far this offseason (see Peavy, Burnett and now Furcal). Since big John felt the need to come to the defense of Wren in the Furcal situation, maybe he should go back to being the GM so that deals could actually get done.
By Interested fan
December 19, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
What the Braves need to keep in mind(relative to the Furcal “deal”, etc.)is that it is like a trip to the outhouse…it ain’t over ‘til the paper work is done.
By BravesReborn
December 19, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
A lot of what is going on has nothing to do with what a player wants. Raffy could have felt he wanted to be a brave again by a margin as much as 75%, but because of the players union forcing these guys to take as much money as they can, they don’t have a choice. Obviously to the union, it’s more important for free agency and arbitration to get as much loot as you can. Until they change this attitude, players will not have choices to take less money to stay or go to any particular destination. A perfect example of this was Glavine going to the Mets. You know he wanted to stay in Atlanta, but because he was a union rep, he HAD to take the highest offer. Just a joke of a set up…
By Rogie
December 19, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
Yes, deals fall apart all the time. But, this is different. There’s a wide spectrum of agreements…from just verbal to a hard contract. Because there are 30 teams all over the map and agent in any particular city, it’s likely that the “term offer sheet” being faxed to an agent is tantamount to “shaking hands” and precursor to physically signing the deal. Mr. Tellem is speaking in lawyer jargon in his response letter. He’s saying “truths” but is disingenuous. It is likely well-known in baseball that once a term offer sheet is faxed, that the deal is made. For one, no team is going to put down hard numbers on paper if they thought possibility existed that another team could see it. Scott Boras has made a career of playing chicken with teams, forcing them to play off each other for a free agent. Was Teixeira really offered more money by “another team?” The Red Sox have this very issue to deal with today. I’m sure the “other team” would not want the Sox to see their exact offer on a term offer sheet. One other thing, Mr Schuerholz deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt with his history. He is a baseball professional that has run a class organization for 2 decades. I believe him.
By Eyeteach
December 19, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
I say go young and let the young ones take their lumps and learn. Save the money and re-invest it next year. With the economy the way that it is, having some money in the bank for the future wouldn’t be such a bad thing.
Besides, if the youngs ones come up, who’s to say that they ultimately exceed expectations and we end up being next year’s Tampa Bay Rays.
By BravesReborn
December 19, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
A lot of what is going on has nothing to do with what a player wants. Raffy could have felt he wanted to be a brave again by a margin as much as 75%, but because of the players union forcing these guys to take as much money as they can, they don’t have a choice. Obviously to the union, it’s more important for free agency and arbitration to get as much loot as you can. Until they change this attitude, players will not have choices to take less money to stay or go to any particular destination. A perfect example of this was Glavine going to the Mets. You know he wanted to stay in Atlanta, but because he was a union rep, he HAD to take the highest offer. Just a joke of a set up…
By Alan
December 19, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Jeff, great column — and I agree with you almost completely. However, it is clear that Frank Wren is in very deep water this winter, and I’m afraid he can’t swim. I believe Wren made a good deal for Vazquez (who hardly is a has-been as one blogger described him). However, Wren also has struck out 3 times (swinging wildly in the process every time). Inning over, as Skip Caray used to say. Wren has been played, duped or whatever nasty word you want to use for the past 3 months. In the Furcal case, did Kinzer and Tellem behave unscrupulously and unethically? Yes. But, as has been mentioned many times before, they’re agents — and in the end they’re doing their client’s bidding. Some of the blame here has to go to Furcal, too. In the end, he wanted to stay in LA. Fine. Let’s move on. And that’s the point. To where do we go? That’s Frank Wren’s job. And I’m not too confident in him now. Frankly, I’d like to see him forego trades and go back to the free-agent market. How about Orlando Hudson for 2B? Adam Dunn for LF? Oliver Perez and/or Derek Lowe for the rotation? Add 2, 3 or all 4 of those guys and the Braves — and their bedeviled GM — will look pretty good.
By Interested fan
December 19, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
The important thing is don’t spend money just because you have it to spend. If something good comes along, then spend it. If not, save it. The NFL Detroit Lions are a great example of how spending money is not always the answer.
By rudy
December 19, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
There’s still plenty of time to bring in a good pitcher and a LF bat. Be patient. Also, Al Franken is the biggest TURD I’ve ever seen in my life. He’s a horrible human being. I wish him the worst possible. He will steal the seat from Norm because he’s as immorral as they come. Just a creepy turd!
By Mark Biles
December 19, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Just forget about free agents and go with the kids. We’ll take our lumps in 09 and 10 and with all the extra cash and experienced kids we’ll be able to make a run at a pennant by 2011. Heck, it may not cost a fortune to go to a game next year, either.
By mb
December 19, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
Economic times are going to get tougher next year. I hope the Braves are wise with their money and bring in players that will make fans want to go see them play. In addition, I hope the contracts are reasonable. I don’t want to see the Braves in a few years trying to dump payroll like a lot of teams right now.
I hope we stay with the youth movement. Make trades for young starting pitchers, and let’s retire the old and injured. With youth comes hope.
Go Braves.
By Marc
December 19, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
Jim H,
No, it’s like any immoral Republican who starts wars, destroys the economy and imposes his right wing morals on everyone else—oh, that’s right, it’s like any Republican, it was redundent to say immoral Republican.
By 59bulldawg
December 19, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
I thought Wren was in over his head when he was with the Orioles and his off-season dealings thus far has solidified that feeling.
But what follows may in fact be the real reason for our off-season woes! When I moved from Athens to Fredericksburg, VA years ago my only consolation baseball-wise was that I still had a connection to the A-Braves via their AAA affiliate in Richmond. Atlanta was 550 miles to the south but the R-Braves and many of Atlanta’s future stars were only 45 minutes away. That and TBS kept me feeling part of the Braves nation … that is until TBS dumped the Braves. Then the big league team got greedy and ripped out my heart by taking away my last real connection to the team in the Richmond Braves. Since it was announced that the R-Braves were moving to Gwinnett, bad things have been happening to A-Braves. For example last season Francoeur quit hitting, half the pitching staff went on the DL, some with possible career ending injuries, and the Braves never seriously challenged in the NL East. Now, in the off-season we possibly pay too much for Vazquez by trading potential superstar and local Georgia boy Tyler Flowers to the White Sox. And Wren and the organization are made the laughingstock of the major leagues by his inability to strike deals. I think I even read something about Gwinnett County possibly losing money on the new stadium naming rights.
I think perhaps one of my Richmond Braves brothers up here in Virginia has put a curse on the big league team. So now the only way to reverse the bad luck is to send our Richmond Braves back up here where they belong. And do it quick before are two triple-A teams in Atlanta. JS your boy Wren needs some more seasoning before he can deal cards like you.
At any rate it’s still not too late to save the Braves’ off-season wheeling and dealing and perhaps the 2009 season as well. Just send the Richmond Braves back up here as soon as possible.
So to all my greedy A-Braves brothers in Georgia and other parts of the Southeast, I just wanta to say this. Don’t sweat it and go with the “yutes”. Oh yea … and also Merry Christmas ya’ll!
By Dejay
December 19, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
‘With youth comes hope’….
No, with youth comes LOSSES.
In this economy, you have to give folks a reason to spend $$$ to see your product. And as you all know, fans here aren’t showing up on a Wednesday night to see Jo Jo Reyes get his 85-mph cheddar launched into the Chop House.
If you think Turner Field was empty last year, just wait until mid-July if there aren’t any major-league level talent brought in. They’ll be 20+ games under .500 and just as many behind in the standings. And if you think free agents aren’t lining up for Braves gear now, just wait until they have consecutive 90-loss seasons and have missed the postseason for the FIFTH STRAIGHT YEAR.
Today’s players (let alone their agents) don’t care about the Braves being a ‘proud’ organization or what they did back when dial-up internet was in style. All they see is an also-ran who used to be a front-runner in the same manner that Mike Tyson used to be the ‘baddest man on the planet’. If that wasn’t the case, why is Burnett in pinstripes now (and please don’t use the ‘his wife don’t like to fly’ excuse; she’d be on the first thing smoking to Hartsfield if this was the 1998 Braves instead of 2008 version).
The last thing the Braves need to do is just ‘play the young kids’ rebuild, and save the $$$ for 2010 or 2011 as many have suggested. Just because Glavine, Smoltz, and Chipper rose up and became stars don’t mean that this crop is anywhere near ready for that kind of jump. Didn’t you guys learn anything from watching Brad Komminisk play the outfield 20+ years ago? And how many of those prized free agents came storming here between ‘85-90 when the pain started coming in the form of last-place finishes?
Keep the young guys in the winter league, AA and AAA; I’ll gladly take Hudson, Sheets, Dunn, Garland, Lowe, etc…..
By Ed Glennon
December 19, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Remeber the Casey Kotchman deal? Wren is at his best when the deal falls through. If a few more people turn him down we could have a good winter.
By BigRed
December 19, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this
Maybe I misread this, but is it true that Moylan is in Arn Tellum’s stable? Does that mean we have now shot ourselves in the foot and given up on resigning Moylan?
By david
December 19, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this
John Schuerholz ego is way out-of-line. He got lucky signing 3 hall of fame pitchers and now thinks he “god”. I think only 1 ring in 14 years speaks for his leadership. Schuerholz need to retire, he is a frustrated guy who never made as an athlete and even carriers a “hero handicap”……
By BravesFan79
December 19, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
If the Braves dont bring back Smotz and Ohman… this offseason WILL be a disaster!
But i dont think this team is far from being a playoff contender. Give the rookie pitcher Hanson a shot from the start, dont trade Escobar…and if Smoltz, Chipper and Mccan can stay healthy… ANYTHING is possible!
By cliff
December 20, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
It is time that the Braves frontoffice and fans of the team realize that the ride has ended.The 14 division titles are in the past.The Braves are in desperate need of rebuilding.There is no way that we can compete with Philadelphia or NY right now.We have a few good players to build with like Brian MCcann/Yunel Escobar/ Kelly Johnsonand Hopefully Jeff Franceour will rebound and not do such heavy weightlifting that he ties himself up and slows down his bat speed and matures as a hitter.Plus there is help not too far away in the minors with Hanson/Jason Heyward/Freddie Freeman/Gorky Hernandez/Jordan Schaffer/.But step one in rebuilding you have to trade Chipper to the american league for prospects.I know it sounds like sacriledge but it is the rifght thing to do for him and the Braves and it proves we have moved on.WE have traded away so much talent for rent a players.example mark texeira trade.We need to rebuild from within especially with Liberty media owning us for another 7 or 8 years due to tax laws.And add a free agent here and there when needed without sacrificing the future in desperate and stopgap trades.The Braves cannot retool this team now and win.We are going to have to suffer for a few years or more to get back on track and bring the Braves back to respectability.We have to say Goodbye to the past to say Hello to the future.So lets say goodbye to Chipper and restock our farm teams.Also get rid of Bobby cox and do not replace him with Ned Yost next year as I have been told that he will be the manager of the Braves next year after serving as the Phillies 3rd base coach this year. and get back on track and go young so we can start competing for Worldseries titles again instead of being content with division titles.
By scottbravesfan
December 20, 2008 2:38 AM | Link to this
Braves need to trade for Jermaine Dye. He’s under contract for two more seasons. After that Jason Heyward will be ready to take over for him. They also need to sign Lowe and Ben Sheets. They should be able to get Sheets for a two or three year deal, same with Lowe. I don’t care what Boras is thinking no one is going to sign Derrek Lowe to a five year deal.
Sheets Lowe Vazquez Jurrjens Glavine
That’s a good rotation. And if Sheets gets hurt you can call up Tommy Hanson to make some starts. And if you add Dye to the lineup that is a solid right handed bat to hit behind Chipper and in front of McCann.
By Ken Stallings
December 20, 2008 4:03 AM | Link to this
Jeff Schultz once again piles on with diatribes and off kilter panic analysis. I actually give Wren credit for telling Kevin Towers to take a hike. He’s a smart GM for saving our farm system.
Furcal’s issue is wholly with his agent. Frank Wren didn’t act unethically. Furcal’s agent did. Why did this column (or another one you wrote) not excoriate unethical sports agents? If your interest, Jeff Schultz, is opining on the situation, why are you giving the agents a relative free pass?
That brings us to the AJ Burnett situation. Wren made an excellent offer. Burnett turned it down. That’s the only part of this analysis where there is any legitimate criticism of Wren, but only then if you think he should have broke the piggy bank and got in a bidding war with the Yankees. Note to Schultz, neither you nor the Braves have a large enough piggy bank!
So, in the end, Wren is actually not at fault for any of those three issues. Again, Schultz, you go off on a tangent making baseless accusations and recriminations. Does anyone in your profession do that to you?
By The Grinch
December 20, 2008 5:10 AM | Link to this
There’s still plenty of time. If they sign Lowe or Grienke and someone like Dye or even Ankiel (without raping the farm system) we could still be competitive this year. Remember, y’all, everything that could possibly go wrong last year did. We shouldn’t have lost 90 games with the team we had. The likelyhood of that kind of bad luck happening again this year is slim. Vasquez and another solid starter (plus JJ being more stretched out this year) will help the bullpen out so Bobby doesn’t trot Boyer and Acosta out for 100 innings apiece again. Moylan’s coming back, and Soriano might actually act like he’s got a pair this year. Francouer’s not likely to suck quite as bad this year. We’ve got a legitimate backup catcher now so maybe McCann won’t have to play 160 games again. Hanson might have a JJ type year. So might Morton; he’s got awesome stuff. He may finally trust it.
However, even if none of these things pan out I’m happy with rebuilding. I didn’t like the Tex trade when it happened, but we’ve still got plenty of farm talent. Huddy’s coming back next year and with Hanson, JJ and Vasquez if we add another ace then we’ll be in awesome shape. I’ll still show up at the stadium regardless. I think Wren’s smarter than he’s being given credit for.
By proeye
December 20, 2008 8:02 AM | Link to this
Wow, you’re right Jeff about the Braves getting USED this off season. But you have figure that in every single one of these deals, Frank Wren could have upped his offer. Even the Furcal deal could have still gone down. I mean, why couldn’t he have pulled the same crap that L.A. did by upping his offer? Think about it… If your boss wants you to work a new job in a new town, wouldn’t you expect a RAISE to do so? Sure they supposedly had a deal, but after embarrassment #1 and embarrassment #2, you would think that Wren would do anything to prevent #3. If I was the GM, as soon as I heard that another team was meddling in my business, I would not pout about it, I would get in there and see what I could still do to get my player back including spending more. That’s just the breaks. What can you do? Go spouting off to the media that you got shafted? ;-)
Now what about Burnett? Sure he was a big risk, but if we really wanted him, think we could have offered $85 million? Once again, if it was a matter of being further away from Maryland and his wife who doesn’t like to fly, shouldn’t the Braves have upped their offer to compensate? Maybe it was a line, but that’s the conditions that have to be met to make the deal.
I swear, it still seems like we are under some kiind of spending limit. What would have been wrong with spending a few extra million to get Burnett or Furcal? The team has so far only spent about 1/4 of the money available.
I don’t recall John Schuerholz ever losing like this. Generally speaking, he got his man. He usually overpaid if memory serves me right, except for the McGriff steal of the century, but you know, if you are looking to improve the club, sometimes you just gotta spend more than you anticipated.
So far I haven’t been impressed. Anyone with half a brain would have to admit that FW gets a D this trading season. Maybe he is a great GM and he really got shafted, but he still gets a D for performance.
I’m not holding my breath that anything is going to happen between now and opening day. If every deal is going to transpire like this and Wren doesn’t have the cahoneys to pull off a deal then what HOPE do we have? You know EVERY DEAL is going to be the same, there will ALWAYS be other suiters, there will ALWAYS be other bigger offers, and there will ALWAYS be other snakes who are will to compromise their ethics TO GET THEIR MAN.
By YanksFan
December 20, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
John Scheurholz is tremendously respected up here. He’s on the radio a lot and he’s always honest and interesting. If you wanted to trade Minaya for John straight-up, I’ll bet most Met peeps would want it. You guys got royally scr**ed by the Tellem group. I hope Cashman was paying attention.
By YanksFan
December 20, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
John Scheurholz is tremendously respected up here. He’s on the radio a lot and he’s always honest and interesting. If you wanted to trade Minaya for John straight-up, I’ll bet most Met peeps would want it. You guys got royally scr**ed by the Tellem group. I hope Cashman was paying attention.
By YanksFan
December 20, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
John Scheurholz is tremendously respected up here. He’s on the radio a lot and he’s always honest and interesting. If you wanted to trade Minaya for John straight-up, I’ll bet most Met peeps would want it. You guys got royally scr**ed by the Tellem group. I hope Cashman was paying attention.
By YanksFan
December 20, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
John Scheurholz is tremendously respected up here. He’s on the radio a lot and he’s always honest and interesting. If you wanted to trade Minaya for John straight-up, I’ll bet most Met peeps would want it. You guys got royally scr**ed by the Tellem group. I hope Cashman was paying attention.
By Florida Dawg
December 20, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
I don’t get the 30 mil offer for a 31 year old with back problems. The Braves should be thankful they didn’t sign him. Baseball is boring anyway…not like the 60’s when it really mattered.
By YanksFan
December 20, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
John Scheurholz is tremendously respected up here. He’s on the radio a lot and he’s always honest and interesting. If you wanted to trade Minaya for John straight-up, I’ll bet most Met peeps would want it. You guys got royally scr**ed by the Tellem group. I hope Cashman was paying attention.
By Keith Strawn
December 21, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this
It can not be possible for Jeff Shultz to imagine how irritating he is. That this passes for insight in the eyes of the AJC demonstrates why the hometown newspaper in one of the largest metro areas in the country is absolutely irrelevant.
By p
December 21, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
Say what you will, but NO ONE is interested in this team of low paid, no-name Hispanic players and washed-up, over 40 pitchers. The attendance showed it last year, and this year will be worse.
Either break out the checkbook or move on to Phoenix. Built to Win, my @##. JS single handedly killed this team with his draft HS pitchers philosophy as much as he built it by free agency.
By Art
December 21, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this
Instead of booing Furcal when the dodgers come to town, just be quiet don’t say a word and don’t clap.
By Klstreet
December 22, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
Shuerholtz killed this team before he left. The Texiera deal? What was that about? Or shall we go back and revisit the Adam Wainwright deal? Wren is doing the best he can. The Peavy deal couldn’t be done because they were asking way to much, it was ridiculous. If the CUBS pulled out, you KNOW its a bad deal! Remember who made the Tigers look like a FOOL with the Jair Jurrjens trade, Wren traded washed up Edgar Renteria for a could-be ACE pitcher. If Tommy Hanson lives up to the hype we could have two aces in the future at the top of our rotation. The Braves have always been known as a brilliant organization, why doubt them now. We can win the division every year remember. Frank, keep up the good work, keep fighting.
By Bernie
December 22, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
Hey Kistreet I disagree with you. Edgar Renteria was about the only player that was hitting with the Braves year before last. he was pretty consistent when he was a Brave. Look what Edgabar has done. I hope the Braves get rid of him. It all boils down to the fact that the Braves onwership is not going to spend the money to get quality players in Atlanta. I have gripped about Wren but it is the owerships fault. I wish Arthur Blank or Ted Turner could get the Braves orginization and then maybe we could see a winner in Atlanta again.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
December 22, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this
Jeff Schultz, well said.
I could not agree more. The Braves front office is waking up to the reality that they screwed up, traded too much talent and the chickens have come home to roost.
There is one undeniable fact. Over the last ten years, the Atlanta Braves have traded away or lost more talent than what they presently have on their 40 man roster. And I’m talking specifically about players who were drafted by or began their career with the Braves as amateur free agents.
I suppose most fans would be shocked to learn that there are more than thirty of these Braves products littered all over other major league rosters.
Among them are:
Rafael Furcal
Adam Wainwright (11-3 with an ERA of 3.20)
Kevin Millwood (9-10 with an ERA of 5.07)
Kyle Davies (9-7 with an ERA of 4.07)
Joey Devine (0.59 ERA in 45.7 innings)
Jermaine Dye (34 HR’s 96 RBI .292 BA)
Matt Harrison (9-3 with an ERA of 5.49)
Zach Miner (8-5 with an ERA of 4.27)
Adam LaRoche (25 HR’s 85 RBI .270 BA)
Mark DeRosa (21 HR’s 87 RBI .285 BA)
Jason Marquis (11-9 with an ERA of 4.53)
OK, I’ll stop, I think my point is pretty clear. The talent is elsewhere. Sometimes the GRASS ISN’T GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DAMN FENCE!
You will notice that I didn’t go cherry picking, some of these players are less desirable than others. But my point is clear, SIX of them are starting pitchers. H-E-L-L-O, Earth to Schuerholz, Wren and company!
Fewer trades and more player development from with in just might do the trick, just like it did back in the early nineties.
By JOEBRAVE
December 28, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Wren,I’d like to say sir, that You are as worthless as a tick on a dogs arse!!! Falcons- active -and winning!!! Hawks-active with pi$$poor ownershio, and winning!!! You -sitting on Your Sorry @ss and lying to Braves Fans,feeding a line of $hit,and expecting us to run out and renew season tix!!! You Lying Piece of Dog Feces!!! Go To he11 and Take Terry Mc Jerk with Ya!!!
By Charles Adams
December 29, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
The Braves had the best front office in MLB. It is now nothing but a joke. We need a GM that can find a way to get deals done without giving away the world to do it. It is going to take years to just recover from the Mark Teixeira debacle. And I don’t think we should have given up Tyler Flowers to get Javier Vazquez. I don’t think I can ever remember another teams fans so happy to see a player go. The Furcal deal did not appear to be handled right either. I don’t think all the blame goes to Furcal’s agent. This has been the most disappointing off season I can remember.
By Peavy (No, I didn't want to be a Brave))
December 30, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this
At least the braves ended up with Kotchman from the Tex trade; think of how the Angels must feel now. It looks like front office management would learn that top of the line players will eventually head to where the money is at. Looking back at the Tex trade, the Braves never stood a chance to sign him in the 1st place.
The Braves had their share of bad luck last season but it appears it have carried over to the off-season with the lack of FA players signing also. Now the Braves now find they are no longer the elite pro sports team in Atlanta. As a matter of fact they are #3 these days. They will have to go through a few years of retooling before competing again. Oh wait they have been doing this for 3 years now.
By Barack Obama
December 30, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
I find it hard to believe that in 2008 the ajc can’t do any better than Schultz, Bradley and Terence “the race baiter” Mooron. I mean really, a column that merely repeats the details that we were already well aware of from reading O’Brien’s (much superior) beat blog?
This is a new era. No more old gray lady. These kind of half azz articles might cut it when you’re the only paper in town, but on the highly competitive internet, do you folks really think one lame article like this is going to cut it? For two weeks?!
It’s time for change!
By tlj
December 30, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
The Braves FO is in a can’t win situation. A lot of you guys have stated FW is over his head, JS made some really crappy trades and BC is a horrible manager. No matter what they do half of the bloggers will be unhappy with the results.
Coach mentioned some players the Braves let go but failed to mention that at the time they were let go most of the fans were screaming for the Braves to get rid of them. Davies, Marquis, DeRosa, etc.
The Braves have dropped to middle of the pack because of money. When Ted Turner owned the team the team could get who ever they wanted. Time Warner/AOL and now Liberty have put the Braves on a tight budget. This greatly limits what can or cannot be done.
This is the first year they have had a little money to work with and the Yankees go out blow everybody away. Someone mentioned we should have offered Burnette 85 Mil. The Yankees would have simply offered 90 Mil. There was no way we could win in that situation.
We have fans upset about the Peavy situation. If the Braves had given in and paid the Pads price fans like Coach would be complaining about raiding the farm system.
I won’t even get into the Furcal situation. Bottom line is until the Braves are sold to someone like Arthur Blansk, Ted Turner, etc the braves will be a mid market team. This means some times we will make the playoffs and other time we will not.
You can blame who ever you like but unless you have sufficient funds to work with you cannot win on a regular basis. We have no choice but to build from within, keep the players for 3 to 6 years and let them go play for someone willing to pay top dollar.
By Poorbrave
January 8, 2009 12:41 AM | Link to this
Damn, Smoltz signs with Red Sox….What has the Braves become…?
By Frank Wren Hater, Incompetence Hater
January 8, 2009 12:51 AM | Link to this
Get AIDS, Shoot Yourself in the Crotch, Die and Burn in Hell, Frank Wren!!!!!
After losing JOHN SMOLTZ, you are no longer welcome in this town, you miserable, bumbling, incompetent buffoon.
By BravesFan79
January 8, 2009 12:51 AM | Link to this
So we could pay Javy Vasquez 13 mill/ season but couldnt give Smoltz 5 mill!???? WTF!!!!!!!!
FIRE FRANK WREN NOW!!! HE’S TERRIBLE!!
Author BLank PLEASE buy the Braves when they go back on sale!