Opinion Talk

By Charles

April 14, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this

HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

The government is just like the school yard bully - threatening us with loss of limb with his knife unless we pay him! You take away the bully’s knife (in this case the IRS) everyone lives a much happier life.

The Fair Tax would make sure EVERYONE is paying their fair share of the tax burden. Too many people hide their income with cash (yeah, that includes the illegal deals). They’re the ones that are whining the most about the Fair Tax (yep - those who are more likely to vote a Democrat into office).

The Democrats will continue to argue the Fair Tax will hurt those in the lower and middle income brackets. They won’t tell them the truth that in fact they’ll keep more of what they have earned (and have their OWN money in their paycheck each week). Their Nazi-like tactics of scaring the uninformed voter keeps them under power.

Unfortunately, the Republican nominee will not embrace the Fair Tax. He’s not a true Conservative and won’t endorse something that would take away power from government.

By Phil

April 14, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

If we could get our elected officials to focus their efforts on identifying the items that we need government to provide and the most efficient means of providing them, then the taxes needed to pay for these items would be called the Fairest Tax. Now, who’s the fairest of them all? I don’t think it could be someone looking to make money off a book.

By rascal

April 14, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

Phil, you must be an idiot if that is the only argument against a serious proposal you can come up with. You probably live on welfare and are waiting for the government to come over and wipe you.

By gary

April 14, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

President Bush’s Advisory Panel on Tax Reform has rejected the FairTax proposal. The results of this panel can be found at taxreformpanel.gov., Chapter 9 of the final report. The panel found that the FairTax proposal would result in a large tax increase for the middle class (Figure 9.3). Also Box 9.2 addresses other concerns with this proposal.

By Damn the Man

April 14, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

P.T. Barnum said ” There’s a sucker born every minute”. The gullible suckers that think this fairytale tax will save them any money are proof that Barnum is still right.

By Eric

April 14, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t believe it is fair that both poor and rich people would pay the same 23% rate for a gallon of milk, etc. So there would have to be a tier of a lower rates based on income. Only then would there be a “fair” tax. Incidently, what happened to the flat income tax? That would cut out a lot of bull in the IRS code.

By Phil

April 15, 2008 6:28 AM | Link to this

rascal,

If I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you. In the meantime, if you want to hear my complete set of arguments, my book will be on sale as soon as you can afford to buy it. Good luck with that, dim wit.

By the way, I just loved the thought and deliberation that you obviously put into your feedback on the subject matter. How much education did that take. You talk like a disgruntled Linder or Loser.

By Charles

April 15, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this

Eric,

Obviously you haven’t read the Fair Tax plan. It provides a prebate for those “less fortunate” every month. Therefore, a poor person would in essense pay NO taxes on a gallon of milk - while the person who strived to succeed in life would pay the full 23%.

What’s fair about a tier tax? I guess for someone who thinks they need to ‘stick it’ to the ‘evil’ rich it’s a good idea. In the long run you’re just hurting the little guy. Who do you think creates the jobs - and who do you think will be laid off when they can’t afford the tier tax?

By Duane

April 15, 2008 7:40 AM | Link to this

For anyone who hasn’t, I suggest they read Thomas Friedman’s “The World Is Flat”. We need to stop the short sighted thinking of those like Bartlett in this country and start doing something to take our place in the evolving world economy. Our current tax system has taken us from being a producer to just a consumer. The FairTax can remedy this, by making our exports competitive in the world markets, correcting the balance of trade and bringing jobs back to the U.S.

Mr. Bartlett, I’ve heard you don’t do anything for free so, who’s paying now?

By Tom

April 15, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this

Don’t buy the book, even though the proceeds go to charity, read H.R. 25 summay. When will folks realize the 23% tax is not added-it’s already there now! As for the states applying FAIRTAX, some are already trying to. There is no such thing as a Fair Tax, only a fairer tax that allows you some control over a “visible” tax stem.

By Bill

April 15, 2008 7:43 AM | Link to this

Rep. Linder must have flunked math; the so-called fair tax is 30% not 23%. If something is worth a $1.00 before tax, it will sell for $1.30 after tax.

By Gail

April 15, 2008 7:53 AM | Link to this

Absolutely!!!! You misguided people actually need to read the books authored by Linder and Boortz and learn about Fair Tax rather than basing your judgment on liberal news paper articles or panel studies. Get your facts straight before you give an opinion. Take control of your lives for a change!!!!

By Bobby

April 15, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

The fact that Neal Boortz supports it makes it highly suspect in my book. Boortz only supports “the Rich” as he likes to refer to himself and has never been a consumer advocate. So I tend to discount the Fair Tax. Even his conservative friends aren’t supporting him (Rush, Sean Hannity).

By Tim

April 15, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

Clearly, Bruce Bartlett misunderstands how the Fair Tax works. Prices will NOT increase by 23% - this is fundamental to how the Fair Tax works, and why it can succeed. He needs to go back and actually read the book and the follow up book before opening is mouth again. His opinion piece is nothing more than misinformation. I can only assume that he either has an agenda to support some vestedd interests or he’s just not well read ; in either case he ought to be ashamed of writing such a misinformed and misleading piece.

By Tim

April 15, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

Clearly, Bruce Bartlett misunderstands how the Fair Tax works. Prices will NOT increase by 23% - this is fundamental to how the Fair Tax works, and why it can succeed. He needs to go back and actually read the book and the follow up book before opening is mouth again. His opinion piece is nothing more than misinformation. I can only assume that he either has an agenda to support some vested interests or he’s just not well read ; in either case he ought to be ashamed of writing such a misinformed and misleading piece.

By carol

April 15, 2008 8:00 AM | Link to this

There is no question that he FairTax would stimulate our economy. I am a small business owner who has a service business. I am well aware that the taxes as they currently are put a huge burden on the small business and PREVENT us from hiring employees as the taxes we would incur would shut us down. There for we only use subcontractors responsible for their own taxes.

I also hear many conversations among those in the corporate world speaking of what is best for their company BECAUSE OF TAXES. They have revealed to me that it is the TAX SYSTEM today that has them manufacturing their goods outside of the country. This means no additional jobs here. They have also spoken that if it were to change with the FairTax, they would look to bring home those jobs. Combine this with the unfair system we have on imports and exports ~ it is cheaper to bring the product INTO the country than to ship them OUT of the country.

Many of you who do realize that corporations do file their taxes and spend many dollars on how to work the tax system. What you don’t seem to notice is that eliminates revenue to create growth in a company, or eliminates dollars to reward a job well done. The dollars paid in taxes are then passed on to the consumer, by higher prices of the products you purchase with your already taxed paycheck. This creates a double tax.

The FairTax would eliminate the hidden tax and give you the full paycheck you earned.

The 23% tax is paid only on FIRST TIME retail sales and all services. (yes this will create more work for me as I am a service industry who currently doesn’t have to charge sales tax.) If you choose to shop for a used car you don’t pay tax on it as you would now.

The prebate is paid to the head of household EQUALLY up to the poverty level each month. YOU can choose to live within your means and actually make money off the government or go out and purchase the Rolex you always wanted. The fairest part of the FairTax is you finally get control of how much tax you choose to spend.

This would also make it so that every person in our country pays taxes whether the wealth was gain legally or illegally, inherited or earn, hard work or handed out.

The best part of it ALL, the government could no longer take the bribes from those evil corporations, or the evil rich as there would be NO LOOP holes to be had. HOW CAN ANYONE ARGUE WITH THIS LOGIC?

By Brian

April 15, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

Um, Bill. Probably been a while since you sat in a classroom but 23 cents on the dollar means that if something sells for $1.00 then it will sell for $1.23 after tax. Again, all of you people who oppose this clearly have NOT read the book and do not believe the government is in place to live our lives for us. Did JFK not challenge us to “Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what YOU can do for your country”? Too many people today believe the government “owes” them something. I bet most of you believe that after today you will be getting a “refund”. How sad.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Yes, we need to reform our tax system.

No, the Unfair Tax is not the way to do it. A consumption tax is regressive, and its faithful followers are acting like cultists when they chant, “Dissenters must be ignorant… read the book, read the book… you CAN’T disagree once the holy FairTax light shines upon you!”

News flash, folks; I HAVE read the book. It’s garbage. It ignores a lot of basic facts, glosses over others, and insists that “2+2=50” as the “simple math” that proves how wonderful an idea it is.

Boortz and Linder are (big surprise) looking for ways to help the wealthy avoid taxes on their wealth, shifting the burden onto the middle and lower classes. They pretend otherwise, and people who will wind up screwed by this plan (i.e., YOU, if you’re not rich) are being suckered into cheering for it.

Again: I HAVE read the book. So quit repeatinig that tired old line, “You just don’t understand how wonderful it is. One of us… one of us….”

By Flip

April 15, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

Bill wrote…. “Rep. Linder must have flunked math; the so-called fair tax is 30% not 23%. If something is worth a $1.00 before tax, it will sell for $1.30 after tax.”

No Bill, it’s YOU who flunked the math courses. A $1 product will STILL sell for $1. What is it about embedded taxes you don’t understand? FairTax simply REPLACES the already EMBEDDED (23%) taxes. Have someone read and explain H.R. 25 and the two Boortz/Linder books to you because I seriously doubt you can read and comprehend on your own.

By Lolo

April 15, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

We desperately need a change in the tax code and while the FAIR TAX may not be flawless, you cannot reasonably argue that it is not leaps and bounds better than our current oppressive tax system.

VIVA FAIR TAX

By John

April 15, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

I like the idea very much. It may never come to be because Congress will not be able to add their pork.

By Tim

April 15, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

CopyLeft, apparently you didn’t understand it very well :

“… looking for ways to help the wealthy avoid taxes on their wealth, …”

The current tax system DOES NOT TAX WEALTH. Read that again - it does NOT tax WEALTH. It taxes earnings.

You first point about “regressive” (rather than progressive) indicates that you are looking at this politically, not objectively. Put your politics aside and read the book again.

By Julie

April 15, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this

Well said, Carol. I have believed in a “National Sales Tax” system since I was a little girl in the sixties and my grandfather (who I think was ahead of his time) used to say that was the only fair way to tax everyone.

By Flip

April 15, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

Hey Copyleft…

READING a book and UNDERSTANDING the CONCEPTS in a book are two different things. Example: Most here can read a book on quantum theory but I doubt most of us would understand it.

By FairTaxMan

April 15, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this

Typical AJC !

Yeah, its a 23% tax, but you don’t bother to mention that imbedded taxes built into each product or service would be eliminated, and that you would get the GROSS amount of your paycheck, not to mention there would be no more annual filing of income taxes.

Through your purchasing habits, YOU control your taxation, not the Federal government.

By FairTaxMan

April 15, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

Typical AJC !

Yeah, its a 23% tax, but you don’t bother to mention that imbedded taxes built into each product or service would be eliminated, and that you would get the GROSS amount of your paycheck, not to mention there would be no more annual filing of income taxes.

Through your purchasing habits, YOU control your taxation, not the Federal government.

By LOLO

April 15, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

Don’t you just love how people call other cult followers if there is a certain logical cause or movement for change that someone belives in. This great country would not be great if all of our long-ago forefathers towed the line of the status quo.

I can’t understand why people want to maintain this awful system while they are the very ones who complain about the government and taxes all year long.

BTW, some of these status quo sloths that I have talsked to are none other than IRS employees, current and former. Go figure.

By SCY

April 15, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

The cost of everything you buy is NOT going to rise by 23%. This is another blatant deception. The imbeded federal income taxes that affect pricing at every level of production and distribution would be removed with implementation of the FairTax.

To argue otherwise is either intentional disinformation or ignorance.

By Eye

April 15, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

Yes prebate with the assumption of poverty as defined in the book. This means you get a bit if you are a family of 4 with a total income of $25,000 or less. That is not poverty. That is abject poverty! People who spend their entire paycheck, lower and middle class, will be paying the majority of the taxes and rich people who invest the majority of their income will pay next to nothing relatively speaking. And what about the people who have retired and live off their life savings? Are you going to tax them again for everything they purchase with their already taxed money? Consumption tax can work and is a great idea, just not the way the stupid book proposes.

By jeff

April 15, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

The reason you will never see the fairtax ever go in to effect is not about money, it is about control,, The government can not control you unless they tax you at the point of earnings. They get to know where you live, who you work for and how much you make and what you spend your money on. A fairtax would take away that control and the gov will never allow that. Most people that argue about the tax do not know how the program works. The 23% sales tax is already there, it is just inbedded in the process.

By Eye

April 15, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

Yes prebate with the assumption of poverty as defined in the book. This means you get a bit if you are a family of 4 with a total income of $25,000 or less. That is not poverty. That is abject poverty! People who spend their entire paycheck, lower and middle class, will be paying the majority of the taxes and rich people who invest the majority of their income will pay next to nothing relatively speaking. And what about the people who have retired and live off their life savings? Are you going to tax them again for everything they purchase with their already taxed money? Consumption tax can work and is a great idea, just not the way the stupid book proposes.

By Go Fish

April 15, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

I think Bruce Bartlett needs to go back to school and retake all his math classes. It would also help Mr. Bartlett to read and study the subject before he writes an article on the Fair Tax. We need the Fair Tax passed now or we will become a 3rd or 4th class country.

By Todd

April 15, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Bill stated: “Rep. Linder must have flunked math; the so-called fair tax is 30% not 23%. If something is worth a $1.00 before tax, it will sell for $1.30 after tax.”

Well, you have obviously been “eduhmuhcated” in the Georgia public school system and never been involved in business, law, or accounting.The 23% tax on $1.00 would be $1.30. A 30% tax would be $1.43.

By GaLiberal

April 15, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Simple minds can only understand simple solutions to complex problems. That explains why the Rethuglicon bobble-heads like Linder keep pushing this like so much snake oil. The fact is that Fair Tax isn’t “fair” at all. With a 23% Fed consumption tax on everything - including things not currently taxed - it would be a net increase in individual taxes. Further, it is estimated the effective tax rate would be effectively more like 40% because the tax would be paid during the entire production cycle of a product. This is on top of any sales taxes you would pay to the state for the same product or service.

Another huge problem with the unFair Tax is its strong regressive nature. People who can least afford to pay the tax will pay a larger percentage of their income for necessities like food, gas, heat, clothing, etc. The uberrich will reap a windfall from this because they will pay less tax as a percentage of their income. That concept is too much for the Rethuglicon bobble-head bootlickers to understand. After all, the Rethuglicons say, poor people are poor because they want to be poor.

Of course, the special interests are going to get their exceptions to the tax all in the name of creating jobs or protecting shareholders or just because it would be too much for them to pay. So you generate a bunch of complex loopholes for whatever reason can be justified and your back to the problem of an overly complex, unfair system. The IRS would not go away, but just change from compliance with income tax laws to compliance with sales tax laws. I can just see a huge black market developing on “untax” goods. A perfect opening for organized crime.

This even consider what would happen when the economy tanks and people don’t buy cars or housing prices nosedive drying up tax revenues. Or what it would do to our ability to export goods and services. Or a host of other bad things this will create. Simple minds just want simple solutions to complex problems.

When you vote Rethuglicon, you vote against your own best interests. And John Linder and the so-called Fair Tax is living proof.

By tom ga hunter

April 15, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

DA,, our problem is OUT OF CONTROL SPENDING the fair tax does not take the problem on. Read Dough Fife’s book if you want to see how easy it is to bend the truth.

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this

Yes, I support the FairTax. I think far too many comments here show folks who really don’t know what the FairTax really is, they don’t understand the “prebate”, they don’t understand the already embedded taxes, they don’t understand how the current income tax rates are calculated.

Let’s do a simple, hypothetical math problem. You make $100,000 per year. Let’s imagine that the IRS taxes you at 25% on that amount, which means for your $100,000 income, you must pay $25,000 in taxes. That means you take home $75,000. If we follow those who keep whining that the FairTax is actually 30-some percent, and not 23 percent, can they look at the above, and see how it works? We pay income tax on our gross income, not our net income. The FairTax is calculated on our gross income, not our net income…or rather, on the gross price of a product, not the net.

We spend billions every year doing our taxes, the IRS spends billions collecting our taxes. Wasteful spending. It’s time to simplify.

By BlueMoon

April 15, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

It’s amazing how all of the people on here for the FairTax are putting together rational arguments and everyone else is saying we’ll pay more for products and it’s a regressive tax.

Read the book people, educate yourselves and quit allowing uninformed people what is going on. The FairTax is the ONLY way to go.

Products would still be sold at the same price becuase embedded taxes are stripped away. Payroll taxes are gone so we can bring jobs home from overseas. MANY corporations are eyeing this already IF it ever came to fruition. And let’s not forget the “prebate” that lower income families receive to buy necessities like groceries. It’s time to wake up, get on the Fair Tax website and make your congressman listen to real facts.

By pdpmishap

April 15, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

To Brian and Bill,

Let’s say there is a $100 item before and after the tax change…$23 of that is taxes under FairTax.

$23/$100 x 100 = 30% of the total item price is taxes. Now if you’re talking about how much your buying power is reduced, it is 23%…the same as the avg income tax reduction.

Linder didn’t fail math…he actually aced marketing. He talks about $.23 on the dollar…not $.23 on the $.77 which it actually is. He also doesn’t refer to it as $.23 of every dollar.

“Fair” or not, anytime you propose a massive change in tax liability you will disenfranchise many. The middle class will likely be hit the hardest. That’s not including the millions of tax professionals and IRS employees that wouldn’t enjoy a sudden change in profession. These people vote and would likely laden any proposal w/ ridiculous provisions to maintain their jobs.

Don’t forget, the wealthy have the ability to skip borders and maintain homes outside the country while maintaining income. Suddenly a home in Mexico is 30% cheaper and everything they buy there is cheaper as well. If you ever wanted to see the rise of the Mexican expatriate. Much of the wealthy’s income is in the form of long term dividends and reduced tax activity which would be completely avoided under “Fair Tax”. Coupled with their ability to completely avoid taxation by living outside the US

I make about double the median household in Georgia and as a single male w/o a house and four decades from retirement, I get taxed at probably one of the highest marginal rates around w/ minimal services for my money. This plan would probably benefit me significantly but that doesn’t mean I don’t see the obvious flaws and redistributive effects.

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Hint: When idiots come here and use stupid words like “rethuglicon” over and over, you should consider the source to be a pathetic troll. Some people are conditioned to use such phrases…perhaps it was the electric shock therapy.

To the idiot troll…perhaps you need to do some research on a part of the FairTax called the “prebate”. Go do that, and come back and tell us how regressive the FairTax is. Or, just ignore it, ramble, and re-hash the phrases your masters have told you to use. Good troll!

By BlueMoon

April 15, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

GALIBERAL

Obviously you’re a liberal because you didn’t back anything you said up with facts. You obviously don’t know anything about embedded taxes and how the Fair Tax treats “used” items for sale. And obviously reading comprehension was never your friend. Try reading both books on the Fair Tax and then come on here and actually try to state a valid, fair response to it. No educated person can look at this situation and state that our current tax system is better than the FairTax.

By Jason

April 15, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

Yes we need the FairTax. It is a tax system designed by economists, not politicians. Every year, I have to spend $50 to buy a program to help me check that my company submit the correct amount of tax to the IRS. If I don’t want to do that I can pay a one of a number of large companies 3-10 times that amount to check my taxes. And if I get it wrong because somebody else made a mistake, I get punished with fines, interest, and possible jail time. This is stupid. Everyone has to pay taxes for the system to work. Let’s stop making it so complicated. The FairTax makes collection easy and eliminates this “crazy double-check someone else’s work” idea. The current system is broken. If not the FairTax, then what? We definitely cannot keep going with the current system.

By Harry S.

April 15, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Most working Americans, (teachers, policemen, nurses, clerks, firemen, construction workers, ect.) don’t pay anywhere near 23% in federal income tax. About 10% would be more accurate for a family of four with a mortgage and around $100,000 income. It WILL tax doctor/hospital visits, telephone bills, internet and cable TV bills and basically all services that are not presently taxed. It WILL encourage a huge black market for cash purchases. It WILL have every taxpayer waiting for a monthly government check. It WILL be added to all existing and future state and local taxes. It WILL be a huge tax increase for the middle class and working poor who spend at least 90% of their income. It WILL be a big tax cut for millionaires who only spend a small percentage of their income.

By bubbatech02

April 15, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

What everyone does not talk about is the fact that with the fairtax, the IRS essentially goes away. The IRS is a multi-billion dollar burden on the economy (i.e. us the taxpayers). Further, we will not have to spend time (i.e. money) preparing and filing our tax returns. No loopholes for corporate fat cats and the rich to get around.

If you think the current system is better, think about how the rich make most of their money. Its not by salary, which is taxed at rates above 30% in higher economic brackets. No, most get their money through dividends, which is taxed at a lower rate (15%), which means that if someone is wealthy, they may end up paying less tax than those of the lowest income bracket (other than the poor). Under fair tax, the rich cant play that game. They consume, they pay, regardless of the source of their money. I would hope that the liberal class welfare addicts would love that.

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Okay, pdpmishap, let’s do some math, okay?

First off, I am going to ignore deductions and exemptions, and also the prebate part of the FairTax. Just making a general point here.

Let’s pretend you make $100,000 (taxable), and in theory, you are taxed at 28%. That will leave you with $72,000 to spend.

Under the current system, you can purchase $72,000 worth of goods and services with your $100,000. Now, with the FairTax system, you may want to call it a 30+% tax, but you will be able to purchase $77,000 worth of goods and services for your $100,000. You actually have the $100,000 to spend, and you have to stroke checks for $100,000. With the absolute worst-case scenario (where I don’t even consider any reduction in embedded taxes already there), that $100,000 buys you $5,000 more than it does under the current system.

In regard to deductions and exemptions, and the Prebate. They don’t exactly cancel one another out, but they come close. Point is, you would do no worse than you do today. For those who make less, the Prebate is still the same amount, which is a greater assist, percentage-wise, for the income they make.

By brad webb

April 15, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

The present tax system is causing companies to go overseass and thereby bankrupting the country. We are taxed to death. Many pay nothing despite taking advantage of our services. Just think of all the foreigners who come here and take from the economy and leave very little in return. The Fair Tax is the best answer to come along in years.

By john

April 15, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

Just think… no more I.R.S. No more tax forms. No more potential audits. No more looking to see if all your reciepts are there. Most importantly ALL would have to pay thier fair share. You can adjust how much tax you pay by looking for bargains and buying in bulk. Also the poor would get a credit so the tax they pay would be reimbursed. I think it’s a win-win situation. Politicians want the “sure thing”. That is why they are afraid of implementing a fair tax plan. We are the bosses of the politicians. We control America.

By TJW

April 15, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Go Carol!

Look at it this way, the current Tax code, which I believe consists of about a 3 foot high stack of books, currently abuses the middle class as it is. The Lower class ends up owning little, the middle class ends up owing 35-40%, and the Upper Class has so many loop holes added to protect the rich that they end up being taxed on only a fraction of their income.

Even if prices went up 23%, I’m bringing home 35%+ more a year… Yes Please!

The added benefit is that all of the undocumented workers lose the under-the-table advantage, since they get taxed on those American Dollars when they get spent in America!

Yes, The Fair Tax system may be perfect, but consider the monstrosity thats currently in place, and the people who passed the bills to make it that monstrosity… I guantee you they didn’t have the lower and middle classes best interests at heart…

By joyce

April 15, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

LEAVE THE TAX SITUATION THE WAY IT IS. TWENTY-THREE CENTS/DOLLAR WILL BE A TERRIBLE HARDSHIP ON THE POOR AND ELDERLY ON FIXED INCOME. GREED AND DISREGARD FOR OTHERS IS DRIVING THIS ISSUE.

By Athens

April 15, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

If the tax system was REALLY Fair and EVERYONE paid there FAIR SHARE we would not be talking about this PROBLEM. EXCEPT on how to spend it WISELY and FAIRLY. “Fair Tax ” Linder writes— “It has always been a belief of mine that all taxes should be voluntary.” THEN NOONE WOULD PAY.

By kitty

April 15, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

Is any one bothering to consider who will actually pass the law? CONGRESS. By the time lobbyists get through there will be enough holes in this thing to drive a jet through with the middle class taking an even bigger hit.

and I haven’t even started on all the unintended consequences that Boortz’s book…you would think it was the Bible the way the fairytale taxers go on about it…leave out you people don’t even want to think about. Well, I have had ENOUGH of policies and actions by our government that don’t think things through. That is how we got messed up in Iraq. NO THANK YOU.

By FarLeftLoons

April 15, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

Whether or not we need a “FairTax”, we definitely need a “fair tax”. This nonsense about folks who collect welfare, and yet can afford a new car every year (while I can’t), is ridiculous.

By Tom Oliver

April 15, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

It is so obvious that Bruce Bartlett doesn’t have a clue about Fair Tax. He says almost no one understands and he is among them. He talks about the cost of administration of the Fair Tax. What does he thing the cost of the IRS is and the overall cost of our federal tax code? In the same article he says that the “cost of everything we buy is going to rise by 23%” (false) and then in his comment about the prebate, he talks about prices falling by 23%. See John Linder’s column and, more importantly, the book Mr. Bartlett. It is revenue neutral as far as tax revenue in the “above ground” economy but maybe as or more importantly consider the tax revenues raised from the underground economy of illegal aliens, drug dealers, etc., etc. No small amount of extra revenue there that is now uncollected. Proponents could go on about the many benefits such as the reversal of outsourced manufacturing but opponents or nay sayers need to read the book(s) first to have an intelligent conversation.

By Tom Oliver

April 15, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

It is so obvious that Bruce Bartlett doesn’t have a clue about Fair Tax. He says almost no one understands and he is among them. He talks about the cost of administration of the Fair Tax. What does he thing the cost of the IRS is and the overall cost of our federal tax code? In the same article he says that the “cost of everything we buy is going to rise by 23%” (false) and then in his comment about the prebate, he talks about prices falling by 23%. See John Linder’s column and, more importantly, the book Mr. Bartlett. It is revenue neutral as far as tax revenue in the “above ground” economy but maybe as or more importantly consider the tax revenues raised from the underground economy of illegal aliens, drug dealers, etc., etc. No small amount of extra revenue there that is now uncollected. Proponents could go on about the many benefits such as the reversal of outsourced manufacturing but opponents or nay sayers need to read the book(s) first to have an intelligent conversation.

By kimmie

April 15, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

heck yeah it would at least make all the illegal workers pay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont mind paying but they should pay also!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By kimmie

April 15, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

heck yeah it would at least make all the illegal workers pay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont mind paying but they should pay also!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By kimmie

April 15, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

heck yeah it would at least make all the illegal workers pay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont mind paying but they should pay also!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By zeke

April 15, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

HELL YES!!!

Why don’t you commie nuts explain the full proposal, not keep spouting that everything will cost 23% more, which is not correct! When all the hidden taxes that are added into the prices of everything we buy is reduced to zero (0), there is a wash in the tax paid. However, individuals will not have to file tax returns under the fear of audit or confiscation of property or jail time! The lower income earners, and, those who don’t work will actually receive money from the government. There will be no more fica taxes confiscated from your paycheck! If you are in the 15% tax brascket, you will actually get 22.65% more of your hard earned paycheck. If you are in the 25% tax bracket, you will actually get 32.65% more of your hard earned paycheck! In short! If you earn $1000 per week, your check will be $1000, not $650, $700 or $750! What a unique circumstance!

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Joyce:

Please read up on the FairTax. This most certainly will NOT be a hardship on the poor. If you aren’t aware of it, that’s okay, but there is something called a “prebate”. Up to a certain amount ($27,000 income for a family of 4, for instance), there will be a complete rebate of all FairTax paid.

Just do a google search on “prebate”, and for crying out loud, TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK! You look like a freaking n00b!!!

By Tom

April 15, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Remember this, wackos of FairTax-dom: Mitt Romney, widely praised among conservatives for his business/economic wisdom, was not in favor of the Fair Tax. Why? Psst, he knew it wouldn’t work.

By JustMe

April 15, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Yes, we need fair taxation, but this is not the “FairTax”. The “FairTax” is a wolf in sheeps clothing promoted by the wealthy to fool everyone else.

When the tax law/codes were first written, even they recognized that the more wealthy could afford to pay more in taxes. That is why there are tables in your tax book to look up how much taxes you pay per your income. The less you make, the less percentage you pay.

To make everyone pay the same percentage will create an unfair burden on the poor.

Just think for a minute (and I know that the Boortz-type will have difficultly doing this)…. If you make $15,000 and pay the same %10 as someone else making $150,000, then you will only have $13,500 left to live on compared to the other person that will have $135,000 left to live on. Is that fair at all? You, with only $13,500 left, will likely not be able to live while the person with $135,000 will still be more than comfortable. That measily $1,500 means a heck of a lot more to you than the $15,000 means to the other person. How is that fair?

The “FairTax” needs to be snuffed out completely. Don’t be fooled.

While I am in favor of stopping corruption and loop holes in the tax system, we do need the sliding scale and not a flat tax aka “FairTax.”

By Pat

April 15, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Most people make comments without bothering to learn about the Fairfax. How can you comment on something you know nothing about? Make an informed decision people. Wouldn’t you like to decide what you are being taxed on or would you rather the government decide that for you?

Also, why would you want rich and poor to pay a different percentage? Is it fair to punish those who took the time to better themselves? I paid my own way through college and I didn’t have the benefit of using the Hope scholarship.

Our current system pushes businesses outside the U.S. Take a look at how well Ireland is doing. They seem to grasp the idea that businesses will flock to a lower tax area.

By pdpmishap

April 15, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Chief Wiggum,

I’m not under any assumption that I would do worse. I would likely do better. I don’t own a home or have any dependents and I save over 25% of my gross income(meaning I spend below my means). Counting state and FICA, I’m looking at 29% of my income goes to taxes right now. I don’t qualify for SS for another 40 years…long after its collapse.

That doesn’t change the mechanics I mentioned above. I clearly included purchasing power is reduced the same under Fair Tax on the average. That means someone else would be dramatically increasing their tax burden to make up for where I am saving.

Linder’s Joe Millionaire buying a yacht example would actually demonstrate a huge flaw in the Fair Tax. What’s to keep Joe Millionaire from buying/registering his yacht outside the country? Given the # of tax shelters the rich already take advantage of, is anyone to believe they wouldn’t take advantage of international shopping to buy 30% more yacht, 30% more summer home, etc? The greater the incentive to save money, the more likely they would do it. 23/30% sounds like a mighty fine reason. They would remove the 15% tax rate on long-term investments(where most wealthy people make their money) and have a 0% effective rate if they lived outside the US.

The issue w/ the Fair Tax is that is minimizes the changes in behavior. Drugs would no longer be smuggled across the border…it’d be ipods and flat panel tv’s.

By Dave

April 15, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

The people who oppose the Fair Tax want to feed the class warfare and seek to divide the country and drive out more jobs.

The opponents of the Fair Tax love political corruption and love to see how lobbyists control our government. They want our government to collapse and want a socialist/communist utopia to exist where they will be the elites.

By Wee Willy

April 15, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

At first I thought this was funny…then I realized the awful truth of it. Be sure to read all the way to the end!

Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table At which he’s fed.

Tax his tractor, Tax his mule, Teach him taxes Are the rule.

Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat.

Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.

Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think.

Tax his cigars, Tax his beers, If he cries, then Tax his tears.

Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his a*

Tax all he has Then let him know That you won’t be done Till he has no dough.

When he screams and hollers, Then tax him some more, Tax him till He’s good and sore.

Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he’s laid.

Put these words upon his tomb, ’ Taxes drove me to my doom…’

When he’s gone, Do not relax, Its time to apply The inheritance tax.

Accounts Receivable Tax Building Permit Tax CDL license Tax Cigarette Tax Corporate Income Tax Dog License Tax Excise Taxes Federal Income Tax Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) Fishing License Tax Food License Tax Fuel Permit Tax Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon) Gross Receipts Tax Hunting License Tax Inheritance Tax Inventory Tax IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax) Liquor Tax Luxury Taxes Marriage License Tax Medicare Tax Personal Property Tax Property Tax Real Estate Tax Service Charge Tax Social Security Tax Road Usage Tax Sales Tax Recreational Vehicle Tax School Tax State Income Tax State Unemployment Tax (SUTA) Telephone Federal Excise Tax Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax Telephone State and Local Tax Telephone Usage Charge Tax Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax Vehicle Sales Tax Watercraft Registration Tax Well Permit Tax Workers Compensation Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY? Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation was the most prosperous in the world. We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What the hell happened? Can you spell ‘politicians!’

And I still have to ‘press 1’ for English.

And YOU are worried about 23% to replace all of this?

By no_irs

April 15, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

Think of it this way, if one of the poor or elderly happen to hit on one the lottery tickets they will buy with the prebate, under the Fair Tax, they get the whole jackpot: No sharing with the Feds.

By J Moore

April 15, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

It is too bad people will not take an investigative look at our wonderful Federal Tax Code. As I recall, the Income Tax was disguised by the socialists as a flat 1/2% tax and even then on a limited tax basis. Everyone paid the same rate; however, the total tax would be more for those with higher income. The concept that a percentage of $10,000 is much less that the same percentage on $100,000 is not good enough for socialists today. Now we must penalize people who actually get an education and get a “real” job as opposed to getting high and having babies at 15. Do you folks realize that about 50 percent of the population pay no taxes at all except SS/MC? And some socialists like Cynthia Tucker and Jay Bookman want to let them be exempt from that also. Meanwhile, the rest of us “slaves” pay for their entitlements, et al. This is fair? Maybe to the socialists; but, not to me. This country is in deep trouble because there is a large segment of the population that always has their hands out instead of putting their hands to the plow and getting to work.

By Brandon

April 15, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Quoted from Eric. “I don’t believe it is fair that both poor and rich people would pay the same 23% rate for a gallon of milk, etc. So there would have to be a tier of a lower rates based on income. “

And that sums up the problem with the current tax code. People have no idea what ‘fair’ means!! It is absolutely fair that everyone pays the same rate. That’s basically the definition of fair!! The difference is made up in the fact that rich people people spend much more money than poor people and will pay more tax. But paying the same rate is what makes it fair!!

And FWIW, the proposal I read about fair tax included a tax rebate for the poverty level people anyway. So Big Brother can still play his part.

Think about the gov’t tax savings not having to pay for the entire IRS dept!!

By Wee Willy

April 15, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

This is from an IRS employee:

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008 Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500 Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K - tax $9,000 Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750 Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250

If you want to know just how effective the mainstream media is, it is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If any democrat is elected, ALL of them say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can’t wait for it to happen. This is like the movie the Sting with Paul Newman, you scam somebody out of some money and they don’t even know what happened. Now this is effective (maybe not honest) marketing or maybe a better word is brain washing.

I assure you that the Dems are planning the largest tax increase since WWII by letting the “Bush” tax cuts expire. Both leading candidates for pres have already gone on record as saying so.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!

By mrk

April 15, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

First: Our tax system is already fair. The more you make, the more tax you pay (no, it is not perfect and it could be improved)

Second: The so called “fair tax” really is a distribution tax. You pay taxes on what you spend. So, if you make two million dollars a year, you pay taxes on what you spend not what you make. If you make 30,000 a year (like say a teacher) you pay the same tax. The only difference is that the rich guy pays taxes on luxery items that he can afford. Sounds fair, you say. The rich guy deserves it. Well, 80% of what you get in life is who you know, not what you know. So, good hard working people (ok, and bad lazy people) will have a larger % (percentage) of their salary going to taxes. Where as the rich, 80% of which don’t work any harder of us, will pay less % of their salary to taxes. If you plan on winning the lottery or coming up with a great invention, this is for you. If you are the average American, you don’t want to change the system.

Lastly, Government budgets are very hard to manage based on sales. Spending is so up and down, that programs would be budgeted from year to year which would lead to less productivity (yes, I know it’s hard to imagine) from our gov’t. What we have in place just needs to be tweaked a bit.

Important: I’ve never seen a middle class person or poor person advocate for the “fair” tax. Why is that?

I have seen those in the upper class advocate for the fair tax. Why is that?

By Filster

April 15, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

I support the idea of fair tax, but like anything else it needs some tweaking. First, though everyone would pay the 23% tax upfront, the rebates should be tiered to certain cut off points. For example, a family of 4 with a gross income of, say $38,000 gets a 8% monthly rebate (just pulling numbers out of the air for an example). And like ome have argued, look at your pay stub, take all the withholding taxes and add it back into your paycheck. If you divide, you’ll find out what percentage you are already paying, only without withholding, you get to decide what to buy, etc. I think overall, on average, a family which spends conservatively will find itself with more income. So what would you rather have, more disposable income each month, or a rebate of that interest free loan you’ve been giving those yahoos in D.C? As far as the rich vs. poor argument, sure, the wealthy will always figures ways to beat the system. Always have, always will. Accept that littel truism. The question you should ask yourself is whether the withholding added back into your paycheck and leaving the buying decisions up to you, will leave you better off or not.

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

JustMe:

I know you haven’t read much about the FairTax, based on your example. Please do a google search on something like “fairtax prebate”. Someone who makes $15,000 per year isn’t going to be paying any taxes under this plan either.

You’re caught up in an ignorant socialist concept anyway, talking about how taxes need to be based on what we can AFFORD to pay. No, they do NOT. They need to be based on what is needed to run a minimal government, and someone who makes 4 times as much as me surely does not use 4 times as much government services as I do. But they probably pay 10 times the tax that I do.

So yeah, JustMe, I guess I am the “Boortz type” that actually UNDERSTANDS something about the FairTax, which you showed you did NOT, when you failed to understand the prebate, and how someone making a lower income isn’t going to be paying anything in either case. Please….learn something before you open your mouth. I’ve seen you around other blog, and it’s obvious you’re a pathetic entitlement leftie.

By J

April 15, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

If you read the book you would know that the costs of products will not go up because all of these extra costs are ALREADY built into the price. You are already paying this “extra 23 percent” and the sales tax, and income tax. Fair Tax rules! Quit taking my money, govt!! Tax the consumers not the producers.

By Get it Right

April 15, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

Stick to the facts. Mr. Bartlett can’t seem to understand that.

FairTax replaces the embedded income tax already in a product. If it costs $1 today, then it would cost $1 after FairTax.

Everyone gets a Prebate that essentially pays the FairTax on the basic necessities. This has the effect of eliminating the tax paid by lower income people - just like we have today.

The richest people don’t pay much income tax today because they have tax shelters and other ways to keep them from showing “income”. The FairTax is collected when money is spent. If Joe Millionaire buys that brand new $50,000 Lexus, then he pays the 23% tax. If Joe Sixpack buys a used $1000 beater, he doesn’t pay the FairTax.

Bottom line - and it’s really about the bottom line - read the book and get the facts.

By Chief Wiggum

April 15, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

To the people who whine and complain, saying it’s unfair that people pay the same tax rate. Grow up.

Honestly, it’s still pretty ridiculous that someone who makes 4 times what I make, would even need to pay 4 times as much in taxes. Do they use 4 times the amount of government services that I do? I seriously doubt it! And under the current system, they probably pay 5-6 times as much as I do.

Plus…the FairTax has a “prebate” included. Low income people pay no taxes under either plan. Middle income earners will get at least half of their FairTax that they pay back as a prebate. The system is still plenty “progressive” enough for you socialists.

By lovelyliz

April 15, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

The devil is in the details

In my experience, when a politician promises a fair fix, in most cases, it’s fair only to said politicians $$$$$ constituents

To me a fair tax sounds more like this: After the standand deductions, all income is taxed at the same rate. Note this means all income and not just income earned by working and money spent on brand, spanking new stuff.

Plus nothing is being said about changing the payroll taxes.

By Just Nasty and Mean

April 15, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

The most important element of the FairTax is that it takes the tax code away from the politicians and puts it back into the hands of the citizenry.

Most taxpayers are sick and tired of politicians using the tax code as leverage to raise campaign funds in exchange for favorable tax treatment.

If you bother to read the ACTUAL Linder bill, you will learn the 23% REPLACES embedded taxes currently hidden in the price of Everything. and is NOT added to existing prices.

Why not replace our current tax code that virtually everybody (But Bruce Bartlett) thinks is a laughable abomination. No other developed country on the planet spends more completing taxes than the USA.

Let’s throw out this anchor dragging our economy into oblivion and take back control of our tax system.

By b

April 15, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

First of all, learn math. 23/100100=23%, not 30%. If you want to claim that it’s a 30% tax you need to say 23/77100=29.9%.

Secondly, as much as I dislike to agree with the republican majority on this blog, the current tax system is incredibly flawed. The way the tax code is set up discourages hard work and responsibility, and encourages debt, irresponsability, and general laziness. It propogates our society’s attitude that the government owes us something for simply having the good fortune to be born here. America is the land of opportunity, not opportunism. If we would all shift our paradigm and start working for ourselves and for our potential, not trying to find ways to scam free money out of Uncle Sam, the results would be amazing and the USA would really be the greatest country on Earth.

By Art Laffer

April 15, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

The argument for supply-side economics was that taxing income discourages people from earning income, and by lowering tax rates, you provide more incentive for people to earn, therefore, income goes up, and overall tax receipts go up. There is evidence that this is still true with the Bush tax cuts, however, the problem has been that the government spending has outpaced the increased tax receipts.

The Fair Tax would be a tax on consumption, and it would drive people to consume less and save more. Maybe this would be good in the long run, but in the short run, it would be disastrous for the economy. This is why the National Retail Federation is opposed to the Fair Tax. McCain is also opposed to the Fair Tax. It’s ridiculous that AJC keeps this issue alive. Go watch Ben Stein’s explanation in Ferris Bueller if you still don’t get it.

By Larry Kudlow

April 15, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

KUDLOW: You talk about reform the code. Are we talking Huckabee’s fair tax? The national sales tax? Are you talking about a Steve Forbes-type flat tax? Fred Thompson’s come out for a quasi flat tax. Which direction do you want to move on that tax reform?

Sen. McCAIN: Larry, I want–I want to convene a commission with Alan Greenspan on it and you–I’m sure that it’ll be a very calm and unemotional gathering with you there…

KUDLOW: (Laughs)

Sen. McCAIN: …and have that commission report out their recommendations but have a provision like the base closing commission, that Congress within 60 days has to vote up or down. Up or down. You know, we had a very good tax reform commission that reported out a year and a half ago, and you know what happened to that. There’s got to be some teeth in it.

By the way, on the fair tax, I suggest before someone embraces that, I’d like for them to read a number of the articles that are by noted economists, especially in The Wall Street Journal. The parameters of that and the outcome of it, I frank–I think, frankly, should give us all great concern.

KUDLOW: All right, so scratch the fair tax. But let me just come back to the other. You’re going to call for another tax reform commission. I mean, with all respect, isn’t that a little bit of a cop-out? We’ve had a lot of these commissions down through the years.

By lovelyliz

April 15, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Would the Fair Tax be fair to someone who doesn’t pay taxes on the 2 year old Bentley they are driving and to the person paying 23% (+ all the lcoal/state taxes, assuming that the fair tax rate would ony be 23%) on their new Hyundai Elantra?

By steve

April 15, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

I MIGHT go for the Fair Tax if it included a LIVING WAGE so every citizen working 40 hours a week could afford decent housing, insurance, retirement, and a good lifestyle for their family.

By Political Mongrel

April 15, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

If you read the Boortz and Linder books carefully, you realize (a) in spite of what they tell you, they can’t do arithmetic (b) they distort the effects of their system repeatedly (c) the middle class will take up most of the tax burden (d) the upper income bracket will save a ton in taxes (e) the Prebate system will require a national ID system that tracks your every purchase (f) the administration of the prebate system will be an unbelieveably expensive nightmare with tremendous potential for fraud and abuse and again (g) Boortz and Linder can’t do arithmetic.

In spite of Boortz’s ridiculous effort to disguise it, the tax is 30%, not 23% as he says. We teach children the difference between discount rates and taxe rates in school. Somebody should have taught him.

You owe it to yourself to read http://taxreformpanel.gov/final-report/TaxReform_Ch9.pdf for real criticism of this idea. The FairTax is just another boneheaded idea that doesn’t work out numerically. Sure, the present tax system is an abomination, but we need to replace it with something that works, not just anything.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 15, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

My latest book, to be published soon, will cover the topics of fair taxes and who should (versus is) paying them. The subject is very complex since it delves into the complexities of Profit and Loss statements, EBITDA, the impact of stock options on shareholders, global labor markets, hidden expenses, the truth about taxes, off balance sheet transactions, golden parachutes for the Corporate Upper Class, etc. This is not a book for the mathematically challenged or for people unwilling to invest the necessary time in a thorough study of the subject matter. For example, Chapter 51.5.6 discusses the tax burden currently imposed on U.S. taxpayers to pay the cost of providing services that are used exclusively by U.S. corporations and their executives. The section discusses the current structure that taxes these higher paid executives at a higher rate than others in order to insure a more equitable tax structure that shifts the burden toward these end user(s) of the services. These and other hidden costs that would be borne almost exclusively by middle class tax payers under a plan such as presented by Mr. Boortz and Mr. Linder are brought to light for the first time in this shocking book of revelations. Keep an eye out for America’s Greedy (will never) Have Enough coming to a store near you.

By pdpmishap

April 15, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Wow…I messed up my own math.

$23/$77 x 100 = 30% is tax.

By cityofdecatur

April 15, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

Todd you listen to too much Boortz but you don’t listen close enough. an item that sells for 1.oo (before tax) is taxed 23% then the final price is 1.23 screw your insults about public ed. What the fair tax people start with is 23% of the final price because that sounds better than the more truthful 30% add on which is how sales taxes are applied. ONE SHOULD STOP AND THINK something you Bootzskyites don’t do you let Neal lead you around like sheep. Quit lying it’s a 30% add on sales tax which comes out to 23% of the final price (item + tax) . the fair tax is an Orwellian double speak pie in the sky sales pitch aimed at lowering the tax burden of the upper earners and shifting it to the lower earners. the Black market of prohibition will seem like a small time operation once the fair tax is implemented. BEWARE of things too good to be true they usually are. And for all you Boortskyites that want the gov’t off your back you’ll all be sooo thrilled waiting on the monthly rebate check every one is supposed to get. which will lead to the national i d card you all loathe. Be careful what you ask for The unFAIRTAX is being devised to help the highest earners and sold to those easily swayed by talk radio. Unless every state city county switches at the same time as the (Boortzskyite) Imperial Federal Government. this will not come close to any of the promises. P.s. Todd crawl back under that rock and turn up your hate this hate that radio you’ll be happy

By AH

April 15, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

YES YES YES

In case you don’t realize it right now the government is taking 25% or 33% depending on how you want to calculate it. So do you prefer 23 or 25 / 30 or 33????

The Fair Tax is one of the best tax proposals since taxes were conceived of. Almost all of the arguments above are misguided attempts to discount the Fair Tax.

By gamecock kev

April 15, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

What are the chances that our meglo-maniac Congressional representatives will ever give up their ability to manipulate the tax code and buy votes from special interests? ZERO

Give it up people - the revenue collection methodology is in place.

The real win is getting the pork out of the budget and having LEADERS spend our money wisely and in our best interests!

By LOLO

April 15, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

To mrk,

you say the the current system is fair b/c the more you make the more you pay. You must have missed the other 99.9% of the screw-job language in the tax code to think the current system is fair.

You also state that government budgets are hard to maintain with sales tax. I for one manage a governemnt local govt. budget and know it is not easy with sales tax but I also know that if we could confiscate peoples income like the federal government, then you would see amazing levels of government spending. Look at the property taxes you pay locally, the politicians already have you there Just imagine how fair it would be if local govt took your earnings too and redistributed around like the feds.

By LOLO

April 15, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

Getting pork out of the budget is much easier to accomplish when spending is pegged to sales tax revenue streams rather than a constantly increasing income tax figure the politicians can depend on for their hippie museums and bridges to nowhere.

If sales are down, spending must be scaled back; that is if a budget is truely balanced.

By jim

April 15, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Some of these responses are appalling and shows how ignorant some people are when it comes to this subject. If you wish to comment, educate yourself first, and quit giving out misleading and downright wrong information. READ THE BOOK! You’re doing a disservice to yourself and everyone else by spousing off when you know little to apparently nothing about the FAIR TAX subject. It would be one of the best things that ever happened! Again, please READ THE BOOK!

By jim

April 15, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Some of these responses are appalling and shows how ignorant some people are when it comes to this subject. If you wish to comment, educate yourself first, and quit giving out misleading and downright wrong information. READ THE BOOK! You’re doing a disservice to yourself and everyone else by spousing off when you know little to apparently nothing about the FAIR TAX subject. It would be one of the best things that ever happened! Again, please READ THE BOOK!

By GaNative

April 15, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

The Fair Tax will never happen. With so many Americans out of work (and the Guest Workers here on the H-1B Visa don’t pay taxes)how will the government survive? The government is crying now about how tax revenues are down. Duh, that’s because the tax paying American Citizens are out of work. Furthermore, the government likes the control that the present tax system gives them. Based on that tax return they know how life history (where we live, how many kids we have, where we work, where we bank, what investments we have, etc.). No way they would give that up.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

GaLiberal, I’m guessing that you live at home with mom and dad? Correct? Because only an idiot would say the things that you’ve said. At least people like Boortz can offer up new ideas unlike idiot democrats and socialists like yourself. Also, I’m guessing that you deliver pizzas to pay rent to your mom and dad. Correct? Can you have mine ready by 4? I’ll have a $2 tip waiting for you and maybe you can give that to moveon.org.

By Dion

April 15, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

YES!!!

By Swarley

April 15, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Short answer: YES!!!!

For those who haven’t read the Fair Tax books, you really should. They answer a lot of the common questions/concerns people have about the plan.

By Political Mongrel

April 15, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

When will you UnfairTax idiots realize that the Boortz/Linder proposal is doublespeak for a 30% add-on tax? When will you realize that state and local governments will still be able to add on other taxes in spite of what B&L say? When will you realize that it is next to impossible that sellers will drop prices by the predicted 23% when their tax burden is shifted? What will you say when you realize that your total tax burden has increased to nearly 40% when all is said and done?

Hating taxes is universal. Being a pathetic bunch of suckers who believe nonmathematical garbage doesn’t have to be.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

I see the blind-faith assumption continues: “If you oppose the UnfairTax, you don’t REALLY understand it! You must be some kinda socialist-commie-idiot if you don’t support the UnfairTax!”

No, and no again. I DO understand it; I don’t agree with it. If that’s not possible in your universe, congrualations! You’re in a cult.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

I see the blind-faith assumption continues: “If you oppose the UnfairTax, you don’t REALLY understand it! You must be some kinda socialist-commie-idiot if you don’t support the UnfairTax!”

No, and no again. I DO understand it; I don’t agree with it. If that’s not possible in your universe, congratulations! You’re in a cult.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Political Mongrel, Have you actually read the Fair Tax and do you even understand the tax code? You’ve rewritten AJC talking points used to discredit the Fair Tax. If you actually had a brain then you would understand that the Fair Tax does NOT add on taxes. By the way, I have a brain and can distinguish intelligence from idiocy. You sir are an idiot and a hack for that matter. Go back to community college.

By yellowjax

April 15, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

Lovelyliz

“To me a fair tax sounds more like this: After the standand deductions, all income is taxed at the same rate. Note this means all income and not just income earned by working and money spent on brand, spanking new stuff.”

Please know that the Fair Tax does not tax income at all. Only on items purchased.

By Eye

April 15, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

GAnative… H1B workers DO pay income taxes, and as non-citizens they do not get all deductions that citizens get. They also pay SS and FICA taxes they will never get to reap the benefits from. Don’t make this about people who are here legally and pay their fair share.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

Copyleft, You only have to press the post button once. No one cares if you don’t believe it will work or not. Can you offer up a better solution other than government controlled solutions?

By Skeptic Tank

April 15, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

You can always follow the sh*t upstream. When the likes of Neal Boortz are propounding an idea, you have to ask yourself, “How does this benefit the rich?”. Truth is, folks, Neal and Sean and Rush and all the gang are richer than your wildest dreams. They will always support ideas that help them protect and grow THEIR wealth. Most of their minions do not, and will never have, the amounts of money that these blowbags have tucked away. And yet, as Americans, we are brainwashed into thinking that we can ALL prosper to that extent. Sure we can!! Don’t believe that baloney. And don’t believe everything that Neal Boortz says or writes. He’s made a mint off those books…and even gotten to visit his buddy W because of them. Expect the middle class to continue to shoulder his tax burden. To Neal, that’s only “fair”.

By everybody wins!

April 15, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

So, according to some of you, something that costs $1.00 now will still cost $1.00 because the “imbedded taxes” will be removed? So everybody gets more money in their paycheck and pays the same amount for most goods? Sounds great!! Sign me up!

Where does the tax burden lie? Obviously someone has to pay it. People who think the FairTax is the perfect system are so naive.

I also find it so funny that because this is in a book, it must be accurate! Forget the panel put together by Bush, forget tax experts, Boortz said I’d get rich!

BUT…yes, it is great to think outside the box. The Fairtax is a good idea in theory and might even be an upgrade to what we have now, but everyone needs to get real and realize it has some major, major flaws.

By NICK

April 15, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

The Fair Tax, if passed, would be the only “fair” thing in America.

The Fair Tax would make sure “everyone” pays into the system.

By Scott

April 15, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

Do we need the Fair Tax? One word comes to mind. DUH!!!

By GOB

April 15, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

It seems like a huge flaw to base a plan on the assumption that businesses will lower their prices because they are paying less taxes in production.

If I own a company that sells widgets for $1, and make a profit of $.30 on each before the FairTax, but now with the FairTax in place dont have embedded taxes, I can make $.50 profit. That is an increase to my bottom line, and will not likely be passed to the consumer. We have become conditioned to the price of so many items, particularly everyday items, that we arent going to balk at the new prices. I mean, does anyone really go comparison shopping for milk?

There may be some decrease in overall price because of the elimination of embedded taxes, but to assume that they will fall at a rate equivalent to the increase in the sales tax seems incredibly short-sighted.

By JustMe

April 15, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

Chief Wiggum and others: Yes, I fully understand the “FairTax”. The example I gave was just that - an example. However, it is very much Boortz-like to take some minor point and try to make the entire example untrue when it is perfectly valid. The bottom line is that people that make more money can afford to contribute more to run the government.

It has nothing to do with “who uses” the government or public services. It has everything to do with how the government is funded.

A flat tax is unfair, period. Regardless of some pre-bate. Regardless of whatever.

I agree that there should be some minimum government budget. I have no problem with that. And, that has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion has to do with HOW to collect the money.

That is another ploy by the Boortz-type. To attempt to bring in multiple issues to confuse what should be a rather straight-forward issue. I wonder if he will also bring in gun rights, abortion, and whatever else to support his “FairTax?”

By Pat

April 15, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Why a flat tax unfair? Why should one person be charged more than the next? That is unfair! Where is the incentive for a person to work hard to make more money? That would just lead people to sitting around and waiting on a hand out from the government.

By tuttigym

April 15, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

FAIR TAX — DISHONESTY, IGNORANCE, AND ECONOMIC DISASTER

I. Dishonesty 1. Neal Boortz constantly talks about the “research” behind the law, HR 25, yet his books do not provide any BIBLIOGRAPHY so that the reader can review the “research” and determine if in fact the economists are accurate, the data is current, and the conclusions drawn are valid. 2. It is my understanding that for any research to be valid there must be clinical and/or longitudinal studies, or failing that, a working model, preferably long term, that mirrors the claims and the hypothesis so that the conclusions reached are irrefutable. The books and authors provide none. 3. Although the books have some footnotes, none would lead the reader to any of the above. A. Mr. Boortz, have you read all of the “research”? B. Can and will you provide links on your web site to the actual “research”? 4. HR 25 basically requires the abolishment of the I.R.S. Your books, I believe, do not discuss the “Office of Compliance” (required by the law): its size, number of employees, and duties along with the enforcement arm of that department which will take the place of the I.R.S., and cost to the government for its maintenance. Why? II. Ignorance I have heard Boortz state that very few items will go up in price affecting only a small sector of the population. Boortz had difficulty in enumerating anything specifically, so I shall help. The following list is not all inclusive but there are NO EMBEDDED TAXES so the consumers, millions of them, will be subject to a 23% cost increase: Medicare premiums, Federal Flood Insurance premiums,state windstorm pools of insurance, Federal Earth Movement Coverage premiums, state auto and property assigned risk insurance premiums, Medicare prescription insurance premiums, Medicare supplemental insurance premiums, anything the governments charge the general public such as court costs, traffic citations, licenses of all types, and permits for personal use. The list could go on and on such as doctor and drug co-pays. I am sure that if the authors put their collective minds together, they might be able to generate a very long list of entities that would create cost INCREASES to the public.

III. Economic Disaster I shall use simple math in the examples below. Please feel free to refute anything or point out any inaccuracy as long as the debates are accurate, factual, and intellectually correct. HR 25 REQUIRES that the FT be paid at the point of sale. 1. Housing - A pre-fair tax new home sells for $246,000. The lender requires a 10% down payment or $25,000. The new home purchaser must pay at closing the $25,000 plus closing costs, and he now has $25,000 of equity in his new home. A similar post fair tax home sells, for $200,000. The lender requires a 10% down payment or $20,000. The new home purchaser must pay at closing the $20,000 plus the fair tax of $46,000 (23%) plus closing costs (total of $66,000), and he now has equity of $20,000, but his savings have diminished by $46,000, which provides NO value. Does the “research” show what percentage of likely new home buyers would increase or decrease because of the fair tax? VA or FHA qualified new home buyers need only come up with a down payment of 5% or less but still must pay the FT. How many such qualified buyers will be able to come up with $46,000? AFTER DOING THIS SIMPLE MATH, HOW LONG WOULD THE HOUSING INDUSTRY LAST? WOULD LENDERS FINANCE THE FAIR TAX? The answer is NO. They do not even finance the state sales taxes on new cars today. 2. Mobile or Modular Housing - People of modest means usually can afford this type of housing, but scaling down the above example and requiring a 23% tax on a new double-wide costing $60,000 or $13,800 would kill that industry also. 3. Automobiles, Boats, Personal Airplanes, or any other big ticket purchases of leases (personal)- Anyone can do the math, Take the purchase price of the item today; reduce that price by 23%; use 15% of that new price as the down payment; THEN ADD THE 23% FAIR TAX PLUS THE APPLICABLE STATE SALES TAX and you have the required cash amount to walk away with the purchase. CAN YOU SAY “DESTROYED ECONOMY”?

There is so much more in the way of major flaws with HR 25; I could go on and on, all factually and intellectually correct.

By Julie

April 15, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

mrk, I think one of the best byproducts of the fair tax is LESS government. I am for the fair tax and I am lower middle class, almost working poor but at least I work! I am almost offended by your remarks about middle to lower class people not avocating the fair tax. What are you implying?

By My Way

April 15, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

In the beginning, there were some businessmen looking for a way to reduce their taxes. They hired people to develop a new tax system that would reduce their taxes. They paid lots of money for this system. They shared part of this system with an elected official that would not question what he read. This elected official wrote a book based on the limited information he was given and sold the idea to a talk show host of equally limited desire to know the whole truth. A cult was born. They drink the kool-aid and they feel better. They have not experienced a hangover — yet. Let’s pray that they don’t ever have to for it will be a doozy. In the meantime, those of us willing to use the gray matter between our ears know that we must reduce government spending first and fairer taxes will follow. Otherwise, we vote the idiots out of office. Do It.

By Political Mongrel

April 15, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

“The Truth”: I have read the FairTax. I understand the math. I have two degrees in math, actually. I can read between the lines and have. The fact that you “have a brain” does not mean that it functions. Go back to elementary school

If you believe Boortz & Linder, you haven’t done the math, period. The FairTax is a matter of misapplication of accounting principles and doublespeak. It doesn’t add up and relies on too many things happening that are not likely to.

By Pat

April 15, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

The FairTax is co-authored by Neal Boortz.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

tuttigym, Do you have an original thought in you feeble mind? Taking talking points from the NY Times is hardly doing YOUR RESEARCH. Do you own a business or know how a business is run? Because if you did then you would understand that taxes are killing businesses and running jobs to other countries. IF you hate the Fair Tax so much then offer up a better idea instead of crapping all over good ideas. You’re a HACK.

By FL Bound

April 15, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Reading the comments opposed to the Fair Tax pain makes me laugh at the way supposed free thinking liberals address change of an obviously broken system. Instead of being open to new ideas and analytically thinking about the current situtation and possible remedies,people want to dig in and embrace the known because the unknown seems scarier. Read “Atlas Shrugged” and you understand this phenomena.

I’m moving to Florida. I bought a house there and have been making arrangements for this to be my full time home. In doing so, I have started noticing the differences in a government that works, and one that doesn’t. I will have no state imcome tax in Florida. There is no ad valorum tax on cars in Florida. I pay $25 a year per car, flat and period. The public school my child will go to offers a quality education, and I don’t have to pay extra for it. My local tax office has 3 employees, because there just isn’t that much work. Why can Florida do this? A flat tax on hotel rooms and other consumptive items.

We are so conditioned in Atlanta to accept that government is broken and wasteful that we cling to it so that we don’t get repulsed by the conditions we surround ourselves in. We have put up with such inferior local and state government for so long we can’t envision a life without it. We send our children to private school, and turn a blind eye to the conditions that make up our local and state schools.

Be a true liberal. Open your brain to the notion that income does not have to be taxed. Wealthy people spend money. Wealthy people hide income. Tax consumption, not production.

Please open your mind to the fact that the system needs to be changed. How can a government entity that overcharges all year long, forces you to file a return proving you deserve to get the overcharge back (using forms so complicated most use a service to file them), and allows HUGE loopholes for Corporations and the super rich be supported? Open your mind that this is not how it always was, and it is not how it has to be.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

Political Mongrel, Then offer up a better solution to our current broken tax system. Please. Instead of complaining about the Fair Tax give us a solution. I just love liberals. All you do is complain about everything and never offer up solutions.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Lovely thoughts, FL—but unfortunately, they’re based squarley on a wrong assumption.

“Instead of being open to new ideas and analytically thinking about the current situtation and possible remedies,people want to dig in and embrace the known because the unknown seems scarier.”

That must be why EVERYONE who has criticized the UnfairTax has taken pains to point out that we DO, in fact, need some sort of tax reform. Nobody is in love with the current system, as you claim… and without that basis for your sneering jibes, your whole argument falls apart.

We need to tax wealth. Not income, not consumption… wealth. That’s a proposal you will never hear from Linder, Boortz, or any of the other multimillionaires who are hoping you’ll buy into the UnfairTax scam.

By Todd

April 15, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

Wow, I am glad I was not “eduhmuhcated” in Decatur, Georgia. I teach economics, and understand how pricing and taxes work.

I know for a fact there is no way you have ever run a business, because ALL SALES are always calculated using the formula price/(100%-profit%). Therefore, now stay with me since you obviously are one of those here in Georgia who drag the Math SAT’s and ACT’s down, the price of the item—%1.00 in this case—would be divided by 100%-23%. That would be $1.00/.77 and thus $1.2987 or $1.30.

I hope you can get a pell grant on your low income and go to your local Hickville State Community College to take a simple Economics course. You will learn greatly.

Otherwise, get a job at your local gas station and maybe they will let you buy some items and then label them for sale. Perhaps you will learn how to calculate profit and taxes.

By Bake

April 15, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

What are these people so against it afraid of? Do they not understand that a 70,000 word tax code is already the worst thing possible? Complaints about unfair tax-breaks to companies, underground economies (drugs, prostitution etc.) would be gone. I’ve got a feeling “Political Mongrel” is a tax accountant looking forward to his vacation tomorrow.

By Political Mongrel

April 15, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

As is typical for loudmouthed ignoramuses, everyone who thinks differently is a liberal. In many circles “liberal” has become the new n-word and is delivered with the same stereotyping ignorance and bigotry.

I am not a liberal. I’m just not a sucker.

By Go Fish

April 15, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

GOB, what you say is true. There is no rule that requires a company to reduce prices BUT if other businesses see your making “more Profit” some of them may want to get into the act too. If you’re making 50 cents on the dollar they may come in at 45 cents on the dollar. What are you going to do? Let your customers start buying at the competition?? BTW yes I shop milk prices the soon to be 5 dollars a gallon price will make many more people start shopping “milk prices”.

By Political Mongrel

April 15, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

The “Truth”: As is typical for loudmouthed ignoramuses, everyone who thinks differently from you must be a liberal. In many circles “liberal” has become the new n-word and is delivered with the same stereotyping ignorance and bigotry.

I am not a liberal. I’m just not a sucker.

By JackLeg

April 15, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Yes, we need the fair tax. We will never know if it works unless we try. All of the arguments against it are fools talking, do they know the future? Why not give it a try; the IRS has 15,000 pages of tax code, how stupid is that? If the fair tax does not work then break out that 15,000 pages again.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Copyleft, You are indeed a communist. Tax the wealth? Are you freaking serious? So you are telling me I don’t have the right to be wealthy? Go back to North Korea you moron.

Political Mongrel, No, you’re pretty much a liberal with what you say in your comments. N-word? Really, have any conservative libertarian boogymen come to your house in white sheets? Moron.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

Political Mongrel, OFFER UP A NEW SOLUTION! If you are indeed a math wiz then offer one up.

By Crafty

April 15, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Copyleft, Your not only a communist but you are also an idiot. Are you going to come to my house and take my hard earned money and then give it to some welfare baby who can’t iron his own shirt? You have some serious issues but I’m glad that everyone here can see what a communist you really are. You should move out of mom’s basement to get an education.

By Useful Heat Energy

April 15, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

I have read “the book”. It was a waste of time. The people that support this trash cannot offer anything that will withstand public scrutiny because there is nothing. That is fact. There are more assumptions made in that book than are needed in forecasting the hourly variation in cow flatulence as a function of the number and type of flies swarming around carrion along Interstate Highways on every third Thursday before a solar flare but three or more days after a full moon in August of every future leap year. I want to see the peer reviews and the background work that presumably went into this garbage. This “book” requires a bigger leap of faith than the Good Book does. Of course, Linder and Boortz are probably hoping that people will follow them as a matter of faith — much as a false prophet would expect. Put that book on the pile and at least you can extract some useful heat energy other than the hot air contained within its authors.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

JackLeg: Do you likewise suggest that we invade every country that looks at us sideways, “just in case they’re hiding WMDs”? Or how about turning the air brown with smog, to see if it ‘really’ causes a problem?

Some cures are worse than the disease. We need tax reform, but the UnfairTax isn’t it.

A progressive tax system would focus on capital gains, estates, and corporate taxes—amazingly, the very ones that the UnfairTax proponents are so outraged about and doing their best to destroy with catchphrases like “Death Tax.” (oooh, spooky!).

And claims that the UnfairTax would “repeal the 16th amendment” or “do away with the IRS” are silly slogans with no basis in reality. Heck, even the vaunted Mises Institute wants nothing to do with this scam, perpetrated by the wealthy to dupe the middle-class suckers.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

By the way: calling me a “communist,” a “liberal,” or a “moron” doesn’t really answer my arguments.

It just shows your inability to defend this scam when its faults are exposed.

By Occam

April 15, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Let’s take this from the top Fact: Every independent review of the Fair Tax proposal has concluded that the only people to benefit from the tax are those with low incomes (@$25,000 per year) or high incomes (over $500,000 per year.) Note that the incomes of the two groups vary slightly depending on the research model. Fact: John Linder and Neal Boortz are more likely to be in the high-income group.

Logical conclusion: John Linder and Neal Boortz are misstating the underlying fiscal impact of their proposal in order to increase their income and that of people with similar incomes.

In simpler terms, John & Neal want some of YOUR money. The easiest way to get YOUR money is to get YOU to help them. They’ve written a book designed to appeal to people with limited analytical skills. The Fair Tax proposal is nothing more than a lever to move money from YOUR pockets to theirs, with YOU providing the effort. Pretty slick, eh??

It’s like any carnival sucker game: put the bait out and the suckers will step forward and ask to have their money taken. Fair Tax supporters are no different: so fascinated with the shiny baubles that await them that they ignore the cost.

I’ve just scrolled through the entire comments, and not one Fair Tax supporter has been able to point to any independent research backing up their his or her support. It’s all based on The Book. Don’t forget, if all you read is The Book then Mein Kampf and the Koran are eminently believable…

By SteveO

April 15, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

I’ve been supporting a National Sales Tax for years. I wish I’d have been a better marketer and called it the FairTax. I could have gotten rich with an unoriginal idea like Boortz.

By Pat

April 15, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are… 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

By Pat

April 15, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are… 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

By AndyK

April 15, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

“Fair Tax”is a pipe dream sold by snake oil salesmen

By fildawg

April 15, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Bruce Bartlett is a fool. Of course prices would rise with a sales tax - but my income would rise more!!!

By 2BFREE

April 15, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

FL Bound, I’m curious. Have you received your real property tax bill yet? Have you realized that many of Florida’s major highways are toll roads .vs just a couple in GA. Have you noticed that the fuel tax is much higher than GA. Also you are comparing a State with an extreme high tourist tax base to a State that attracts less than 10% the amount of tourism. Per person Florida collects more taxes than Georgia, but luckily for Florida residents most of this collected taxes are from non-residents. Georgia doesn’t have that option. Also, not sure where you moved, but I hope paying almost 5 times the insurance rate on your home is worth the little savings you made on your taxes.

By GaLiberal

April 15, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

BlueMoon @ 9:06 AM said: GALIBERAL Obviously you’re a liberal because you didn’t back anything you said up with facts.

Well, BlueMoon your obviously one of the Rethuglicon simple-minded bobble-heads. You don’t back anything up with “facts” either, just call me names and tell me to read a book. No substance there because you have none. “Embedded” taxes and “used” items? Doublespeak just to sell this snakeoil to the uneducated Rethuglicon masses. Simple minds are so easily amused.

When you vote Rethuglicon, you vote against your own best interests. And BlueMoon is living proof.

By Sam

April 15, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

This objective AJC article doesn’t mention the rebate (which FairTax calls a “pre-bate”) that sends a check to every SS# holder equal to the FairTax on poverty-level consumption.

Since many states use Federal Taxable Income, the abolition of the IRS would pressure them to also go to a comprehensive sales tax. States already audit sales tax payments by business. States would get fees from the US Treasury for sales tax collection, remittance, and auditing.

Criminals would pay FairTax on their bling, and illegal aliens would not get the pre-bate. I rest my case.

By Kevin

April 15, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

The Fair Tax is too simple to be true. That is the reason liberals can’t understand it. You have a 23% national sales tax. With that all the embedded taxes go away. So the gallon of milk will cost the same. Then you have a prebate to pay the tax on necessity items. Now all drug dealers,people who get paid in unreported cash and illegals will start paying taxes. Also, when the embedded taxes go away the US will become a tax friendly nation for business. We will stop industries leaving for other countries where taxes are more favorable.

By SneakyDawg

April 15, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

The bigger issue is that the current system rewards those who can consume rresources. Buy a sofa, write it off. say it was for your business. Buy a jet, write it off. burn 2,000 gallons of fuel to travel somewhere, meet for an hour with a lawyer, then go shop and write it off. Until the US Tax code is demolished we will continue to be a nation of consumers with no savings and no incentive to try. A crime against humanity.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

Copyleft, since you obviously understand basic economics, not, let me inform you of what happens when corporations get taxed with your “progressive tax.” Jobs are lost and are moved overseas. Towns fall apart and you end up with places like Detroit ,Michigan or anywhere in New Jersey. High unemployment and factories that shut down. You do indeed have wealth envy. Anyone who speaks of “wealth redistribution” is obviously a Marxist communist. All inthe name of the common good. Progressive tax will also create government dependence and MORE WELFARE. The goal of the Fair Tax is to let people KEEP their own money and invest it something other than government. You can now go back to sucking off Obama.

By Get it Right

April 15, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

To Political Mongrel: Read the Book!

To all those spouting the 30% number: That is incorrect. If it costs a dollar today, then it will cost a dollar after the FairTax. Remove the embedded income tax and add the FairTax. $1.00 minus $0.23 plus $0.23 equals $1.00.

Read the book.

By In the middle

April 15, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

Occam, please site the studies and the location of the “independent review” of the Fair Tax proposal. I would guess that you will find they all changed the make of the plan before releasing their findings. Also the Bush Commission on Taxes changed the proposal before making their assessment. (Please read the commission report and the assumption they made on the Fair Tax. Also please review the objectives of the commission)

Additionally, every product you buy as a tax payment from every entity that has touched that product from the maker to the shipper to the retail outlet. Since all those have to pay a tax on profit after expenses, they all build that payment into their price. If you remove the tax budget into the price they charge, you will be able to lower your cost. As the cost of the steps decrease, the cost to end user will also decrease. Add the tax of 23% to the new price and guess what, you will arrive close to where you started. In other words, a 1.00 item today will cost around 1.00 after the fair tax. However, your paycheck will be much higher due to the lack of Federal and FICA taxes that are currently taken away every pay period.

Lastly, I hope no anyone really believes that corporations actually pay taxes. If you do then please review basic budgeting practices. Corporations simply charge their customers a higher price to account for the tax expenditures at the end of there physical year. So by saying that we should tax the corporations more is the same as saying lets tax all of us more.

By Scammed

April 15, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

Some people are so gullible. I am just amazed at some of the things people will fall for. This fair tax scam is right up there at the top of the list of scams. It reminds me of some scams I have seen on a smaller scale many many times. You see, what you do is you start with a “story” that is presented to the potential suckers by someone that looks and sounds believable. That’s the bait. Then, after you have them falling over themselves in awe, you offer them a piece of heaven — all for the low low price of “How much do you have?” Now you are hooked, Suckers, and left holding the bag. Meanwhile, the bad guys (the backers of the scam) are sitting back counting their loot and contemplating their next scam.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

GaLiberal, Do you have an original thought in your brain? I’ve seen you comment on blogs before and you use the exact line in every blog. Rethuglicon this and rethuglicon that. You’re a classic example of why Meth is illegal. You’ve smoked WAY too much of it. Go back to your pizza delivery job.

By gspot

April 15, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this

TJW; are you serious about the top earners not paying much in taxes? I am a proponent of almost ANYTHING that would change the current system. But get your facts right; go to irs.gov and do the research about what income levels pay what % of federal income tax. The top 50% of earners pay 97% of the federal income tax burden. The top 10% pay over 50%. Look it up.

By ND

April 15, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Get rid of the income tax and levy a lower sales tax percentage on essential goods compared to non-essential goods. There. Problem solved. The FairTax is a good idea, if an imperfect one.

By The Truth

April 15, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Scammed, I’m surprised you can actually put a sentence together. I’m guessing you have a fine arts degree. Or, no degree at all.

In the middle, Corporations don’t pay taxes? Really? I have relatives who are accountants and CPAs. They will gladly disagree with you.

By Carolyn

April 15, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

The 23% is misleading. If you pay $100 for something today, with this tax, you would pay $130. That’s a 30% increase in cost of living. If you read Sec. 303 of HR 25 (the actual house bill)and you do the math, you will see that the “national sales tax factor” calculates to 1.3, which means everything will cost 30% more. Section 303 relates to COLA increases for Social Security benefits. I can’t imagine Soc Sec benefits going up 30% for everyone who gets Soc Sec, since the cost would be horrendous. I wrote my congressman to be sure I was reading this right, but have not heard back yet. The “Fair Tax” sounds like a terrible idea to me.

By Pat

April 15, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Another person who did not do their research. No soup for you!

By Dave

April 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

Its sounds like a great Idea!

We pay Imbedded taxes on virtually everything we buy (even on tax free holidays).

Lets quit bickering about it and let some experts (i.e. noted Economist, Greenspan types)study this and make a recommendation.

By Adam

April 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

What alot of people don’t realize is that there are 14 million people in this country that currently don’t pay taxes (illegal immigrants), that will be paying taxes if the fair tax is implemented. I see this as addressing two issues at the same time!!!

By pdpmishap

April 15, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

To Get It Right: “To all those spouting the 30% number: That is incorrect. If it costs a dollar today, then it will cost a dollar after the FairTax. Remove the embedded income tax and add the FairTax. $1.00 minus $0.23 plus $0.23 equals $1.00.”

**$1.00 - $.23 = $.77 (This is the item’s cost)

$.23/$.77 * 100 = 30%**

I had a typo earlier in my math but the truth is if you pay $.23 in tax on a $.77 item, it is a 30% tax.

By Adam

April 15, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Truth,

What he is saying is that the tax they pay is passed down to the consumer in the price of the item. If the tax is removed, the price goes down due to the economic principle of free markets.

By Cynthia Van Auken

April 15, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

The Fair Tax as supported by Congressman Linder is one of the worst ideas yet. There are many questions I would like to ask the Congressman such as “are tax evasion and tax shelters meant to be the same thing in your book?” On page 36 in the book you state “One goal of the FairTax proposal is to eliminate all business and corporate income tax.” You have also said business and corporations do not pay taxes. Which is it?? The idea that the IRS would be eliminated is a pipe dream especially when you consider the FairTax proposed refund plan. The fairest tax would be the flat-tax. A flat-tax that would tax corporations GROSS sales with a tax from ten to twenty percent. This way the individual really does have a choice of how he spends his money. Individuals would pay a maximum of ten percent flat tax on gross income. A flat tax on corporate sales would also be more in line with the 1919 Supreme Court ruling referencing the Sixteenth Amendment that the income tax was to be levied on corporations, not individuals. There is not a law on the books to support individuals paying income but we do it because we are told to and have let the government convince us we owe it. It is time for a tax change but not the FairTax plan of Congressman Linder.

By Todd

April 15, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

Carolyn, how is that misleading? That is the basis of all economics. In layman’s terms, when you take the percentage, you take it of the whole, not of the initial.

The $130 is 23% more than $100. Trust me, everytime you buy a candy bar, and that candy bar costs .75 (and the store is making 40% profit), they bought it for .45. They took the .45, divided it by (100%-profit%) and got their then sale price.

If you did your $123, then that would truly only be a 18.8% tax.

April 15, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

The 23% is misleading. If you pay $100 for something today, with this tax, you would pay $130. That’s a 30% increase in cost of living. If you read Sec. 303 of HR 25 (the actual house bill)and you do the math, you will see that the “national sales tax factor” calculates to 1.3, which means everything will cost 30% more. Section 303 relates to COLA increases for Social Security benefits. I can’t imagine Soc Sec benefits going up 30% for everyone who gets Soc Sec, since the cost would be horrendous. I wrote my congressman to be sure I was reading this right, but have not heard back yet. The “Fair Tax” sounds like a terrible idea to me.

By BendOver

April 15, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

-if you think Linder or Boortz are pushing this junk because they care so much about middle class taxpayers.

-if you think you will be better off with this tax scam.

-if you think the government will not need an organization even bigger than the IRS to handle the prebates and tax code enforcement. Yes, there will be a need for an ever-changing and growing tax code. Sound familiar. All the “police” that will be needed to check residences, citizenship, purchase receipts, compliance, etc., won’t be cheap either. What a nightmare and WalMart will NOT provide that service to the Fed for free, suckers. The cost of mailing all those checks every single month will actually make the current system look cheap. All those checks are going to look mighty tempting to a new class of thieves as well. The new scams will overwhelm government in no time and they’ll be forced to implement radical changes in the code and the enforcement. Everyone will be required to be permanently marked or implanted as a security measure, etc.

By In the middle

April 15, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

To:The Truth,

Ask each one of your “relatives who are accountants and CPAs” if the companies they are accounts and CPAs for budget for their tax bill. Follow that quesiton up with “do they add that amount to the cost of doing business?”. I will bet that they say yest to both questions.

As Adam pointed out, we all pay of the amount money the corporations actually pass through to the government.

And lets get off this 23% to 30% numbers. If an item cost the same before and after the fair tax and I have 20 to 30% (depending on your federal tax level, and do the math after FICA and Federal from your paystub)more in each paycheck, someone please tell how this is not a good thing. Also remember that your employer pays half of your FICA tax each pay period. In theory, if the fair tax is passed you should get a raise since the cost of having you as an employee will go down. So now perhaps you have even more money each paycheck.

By Scammed

April 15, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

The Truth. You can’t handle the truth. The Truth. Yo can’t even read what is posted, dim wit. The Truth. You know nothing about me yet you make your baseless claims anyway. Go back to playing with yourself. It’s the only “thing” you are capable of grasping.

By Fair Tax Supporter

April 15, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

READ HB 25 AND BOTH BOOKS PEOPLE! The imbeded taxes that ALREADY exist in everything you buy will be replaced by the Fair Tax. PRICES WILL NOT GO UP BY 23%. Poor people will pay NO taxes under the plan because of the pre-bate and the evil rich will pay more when they buy their big houses, cars and boats.

Again - READ the bill and the books before and then decide.

By Fair Tax Supporter

April 15, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

READ HB 25 AND BOTH BOOKS PEOPLE! The imbeded taxes that ALREADY exist in everything you buy will be replaced by the Fair Tax. PRICES WILL NOT GO UP BY 23%. Poor people will pay NO taxes under the plan because of the pre-bate and the evil rich will pay more when they buy their big houses, cars and boats.

Again - READ the bill and the books before and then decide.

By Craig

April 15, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

I think the AJC tosses out this topic every so often just to get a reaction.

So I’ll bite also. Copyleft, Occam, and others here are correct. If this scam is implemented, and you’re poor, you’ll get a new handout from the government. (Remember when Boortz used to oppose things like that?) And if you’re rich, you’ll pay much less than you do now. So who’s left to pay the bills? The middle class - most people would end up paying more, not less, to support the government programs in place now. And there would be massive black markets, with a huge intrusive government agency to enforce the rules. You think the IRS is bad? You ain’t seen nothin yet…..

By Todd??

April 15, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Todd, Your calculating is for price based on margin. We are talking taxes here. I’m fairly certain that when I buy a double cheeseburger at McDonalds with a 7% sales tax that I am paying $1.07. Not $1.08. Remember, sales tax is computed as a percentage. For example, a 7% sales tax means you are paying 7 cents in tax for every dollar you spend. So, without even considering other assertions put forth by the Fair Tax Plan you’re dead wrong and owe the other respondent an apology. By the way, if I was trying to make a point about my superior intellect I wouldn’t knock the education of the very people I am paid to educate.

By Carolyn

April 15, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

If prices would not go up by 30%, then why did they need to add Sec.303 to HR 25 to allow Social Security benefits to go up 30% for cost of living? Read it and do the math. 1 + (.23/1.00-.23) = 1.3.

By Rob Kriete

April 15, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

The substitute “fair” sales tax would still discriminate against those with a low income because they have to spend a higher percentage of their income in everyday necessities, notwithstanding complicated tax-rebate formulas to compensate them, which by the way, would undo the purpose of simplifying the tax code and trying to abolish the IRS. Another problem, though, is that older workers, and particularly retirees, have already paid hefty federal and state income taxes on their savings. Their investments in Roth IRAs, stocks/bonds, CDs and other similar “after-tax savings” would be heavily taxed again when they cash them for everyday living. There’s no practical way to compensate the latter. As a retiree, I surely don’t want to keep track of every purchase I make to prove it was made with my “old savings,” or that I qualify for a tax-rebate because my savings were in place before the “new” fair tax took effect. That system would be ripe for fraud as well.

By Bonedaddy

April 15, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

I hate to even say this. I am rich, do not work, live off of TAX-FREE investments. The only tax I pay is my property tax, and taxes on gasoline and our consumables. I do not want the Fair Tax. Leave the tax structure the way it is so you poor masses of asses can continue to keep me rich.

By JackLeg

April 15, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

CopyLeft, are you on drugs, or did you not even read what I wrote? Fair Tax has nothing to do with invading countries or WMD’s. And as far as the death tax it should be done away with. How stupid is it to tax you after death on already taxed money? The true scam is the tax code as it is. A progressive tax is wrong and should be done away with; if the rich paid their proper amount then there would not be an issue. But as it stands the tax code favors the wealthy that can afford somebody to read all of it. The only thing I hear is that some people like the taxes the way they are, but more don’t. CopyLeft you must be an accountant who would not have a job under the fair tax. Don’t worry their will be re-education for the likes of you.

By Copyleft

April 15, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

And again we see the immediate resort to ad hominems: “You must be a communist”, “You must be a tax attorney who will lose his job”, “You’re obviously a moron who delivers pizza and lives in his mom’s basement.”

See how they react when their Sacred Belief is threatened? They certainly can’t answer arguments with facts or logic. Just personal attacks, over and over.

And the ever-popular, “If you don’t like the UnfairTax, you must LOVE the current system, which proves you’re insane!”

Read it again, JackLeg: I was pointing out that NOBODY has been praising the current system. EVERYBODY has agreed it needs reform. The only question is what sort of changes are needed.

The UnfairTax is one option; surely we can do better than that?

By GB

April 15, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

EVERYONE WILL RECEIVE A CHECK FOR NECESSITIES UP TO THE POVERTY LEVEL EVERY MONTH. IT DOES NOT HURT POOR PEOPLE. PLEASE, GOD, READ THE BOOK

By Mitchell Easter

April 15, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

If the FairTax is revenue neutral, then there will still be a shortfall in revenue versus spending. Why bother with the risk of change if it has no chance of catching up with the spending. Also, it looks like the winners are the very rich and the very poor. Everyone in the middle will pay like crazy

By Mitchell Easter

April 15, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

If the FairTax is revenue neutral, then there will still be a shortfall in revenue versus spending. Why bother with the risk of change if it has no chance of catching up with the spending. Also, it looks like the winners are the very rich and the very poor. Everyone in the middle will pay like crazy

By Slw

April 15, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

The Fair Tax will save taxpayers money true, and put more in their control. BUT…I am here to tell you, the economy would tank. I would spend very little discretionary. The electronics I buy, the movies I go to, rent, the things that keep corporate America spinning, would not get bought by the average middle class person. Forget about me buying a new car…ever… or upgrading my home every few years. The Fair Tax would result in a lot of jobs being lost. But if you conservatives think that is for the best, more power to you. besides, if it were such a great idea conservatives…why didn’t Regan, Bush#1, or W Bush get it passed???

By Carolyn

April 15, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

Rob, I agree with you that the Fair Tax would be a bad idea. I’m just making the point that of course cost of living would go up 30%. I’d glad to see that you are politely considering the issues instead of making rude comments, insulting other people, like some of the other bloggers have. I wish we had more thinkers like you.

By Royal

April 15, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

How can you believe anything that comes out of Boortz’s mouth? He’s lied about graduating from Texas A&M, he’s lied about having a medical deferment during the Vietnam War, he lied to the Selective Service about his status and non-status as a college student! He’s just a common,everyday liar, with a megaphone!

By Lance Futral

April 15, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Once again Bruce Bartlett lies about all products increasing by 23 percent. Once the imbedded taxes are removed which are currently included in everything that you buy you will pay the same price as what you pay now. Read the book and become educated on the subject. Ignorance is bliss, but KNOWLEDGE IS KING !!!!!!

By Lily Toad

April 15, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

imbeded taxes that ALREADY exist in everything you buy will be replaced by the Fair Tax. PRICES WILL NOT GO UP BY 23%.

In a perfect world manufacturers will lower their prices when the Fair Tax goes into effect. If you believe this, do a little research into the amount of money oil companies have made in the past year. This is a utopian supposition, not fact.

By Carolyn

April 15, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

I say just read the actual bill (HR 25), not somebody’s book intended to persuade rather than inform. Reading the law is not that difficult.

By JackLeg

April 15, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

CopyLeft, do you just make things up? I never said communist or WMD’s, or even attorney. Why do you make things up, does it just suit your purpose? No I do not deliver pizza, but at least I am educated and know what I read, and I also do not lie about what other people say. But what is your suggestion “Reform”, what does that mean? Add a few more thousand pages to an already bloated tax code? Reform is a nice way of saying alters ever so slightly. How many times do you fix your car before you say it is time to get a new one? With the tax code it needs something new not “Reform”.

By How the IRS would reply

April 15, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Get rid of the IRS? How will I sleep at night? I spend countless hours laying in bed thinking of ways to tax you poor suckers, like those of you who have company paid cell phones and make personal phone calls! What do you expect me to do? Pay 23% tax on a sleep aid?

By Donna

April 15, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

Here’s a article that answers many questions, pro/con about the Fair Tax, by Laurence M. Vance published 12/12/2005. It’s found at: http://www.mises.org/story/1975 Please read the entire article, before you comment on it!

By songbird

April 15, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

To those of you who think corporations just pass along all increased costs to the consumer, think again. There’s a little thing called price elasticity. Every time your raise the price of a product, sales go down. The amount of the decline depends on the product, whether it is a necessity or nice to have. Or you have consumers shift to, e.g., a private label product from a manufacturer’s brand to save money. Corporations try to offset material cost increases by trying to cut elsewhere and passing along some of the cost to consumers.

The question I have is, manufacturers will have to pay the 23% tax on raw materials, transportation costs, etc., that go into producing and selling a product, so has that been factored into the assumption that retail prices will go down? I haven’t heard anyone address that yet.

I’m all for a more fair tax system, I’ve already paid 27% of my income in taxes this year, that’s just federal, state, FICA and Medicare, not sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes, etc. By the time I add all that in the percentage probably is near 40%.

I need to do more research on Linder’s bill to decide if I think it’s better. What’s to stop congress or states from adding back taxes or fees over time?

By 2BFREE

April 15, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

I agree with Lily Toad. Do those that worship the “book” really believe that all those tax savings are going to be passed to the consumers. Remember corporations are owned by stockholders, stockholders would like a better return on their investment and if they can get it on the backs of others, then great. I do think that consumer cost will decrease with free competition and trade, but not the full 23%. Nobody, including the “Fair Tax gods”, can accurately predict exactly how much the decrease will be. Will we charge an excess tax to corporations not lower their prices by 23%? No! So who pays the difference? Hint, you see them in the mirror every morning.

By pat

April 15, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

The current system is the worst possible scenario. Anything would be better.

By Lily Toad

April 15, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

The Fair Tax will not apply to goods bought for resale, so components, supplies, etc. will not be taxed. I saw that in HR 25.

By In the middel

April 15, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Carolyn, I think before people discuss an issue, they should educate themselves as much as possible from all angles. Just reading the actually bill will not give you the background or opinions. Per haps Boortz’s books were written to persuade people to buy into the Fair Tax idea, but is that not the reason almost everything is written on a subject. Is that not your intention with your comments? Are you not trying to persuade people who believe that the fair tax is a good idea to change and see it your way?

Lily Todd, I think the manufactures would indeed lower their prices because if they don’t the competition will. Also, the amount of money the oil companies have made the past year or so are large in terms of dollar amounts. However, in terms of how much they make on each 1.00 of revenue is small compared to some industries. Exxon Mobile is around 9 to 10 cents profit on every dollar. By most industry standards, that is low.

Slw, the other did not get it passed because too many people in Washington refuse to give up the power they have over you and me with the current tax rates. They also refuse to give up the vote buying ability of the current tax structure. Any type of major reform is going to have to happen at a grass roots level and works it way up to Washington. It will never work the other way around.

By pat

April 15, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

The utter lack of forethought and education displayed in this “discussion” is astounding. It’s just simply not worth the debate. I weap for the future.

By In the middle

April 15, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

songbird, you might be correct but the price that a company charges you and I will always contian an payment to the IRS no matter what cost are cut and what the demand is for an item. Tax payments are alwasy considered in pricing because you have no other choice.

By anthony

April 15, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

If you think jobs arent here because of taxes your kidding yourself. With having to pay no taxes its still cheaper to hire a college grad in india for a $1000 a month. A true fair tax would be a flat tax,everyone pays the same percentage. Rich or poor. People think pundits speak for them,they dont they speak for rich people because thats what they are.

By Dave

April 15, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Once again the AJC has printed something before getting the facts correct. The cost of goods will not go up 23%. Do you homework.

By Donna

April 15, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Who and when,has Boortz debated in a open debate, with a impartial moderator,at a neutral sight? Who, when, and where, has Boortz debated the Fair Tax when he hasn’t had control of the mike? Please list the time,the place and the other debaters!

By R

April 15, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

You damn right!

By wef

April 15, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

Does the fair tax not lead to double taxation on those that actually save money. Taxed on income they have saved at the time fair tax passes then having to pay 23% on everything they buy once it has passed. That hardly seems fair.

By lovelyliz

April 15, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

yellowjax

Please know that the Fair Tax does not tax income at all. Only on items purchased.

Note that the Fair Tax doesn’t tax used item, so a family buying a gallon of milk or shoes for their children pay the tax, but millionaires can drive around in their 2 year old used Bentley not having paid a dime on the $$$ they used to pay for it.

By occam

April 15, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Donna is right about Boortz refusing to debate, but it’s worse than she states. Boortz has refused to debate Jay Bookman of the AJC on his radio program. Mr Bookman has offered to appear on the show, at a time of Boortz’ choosing, and Neal has been dodging him, and continues to do so. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the gullible Fair Tax faithful might hear a little of the truth…

By Bob Peach

April 15, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Now I understand why Bush-1’s only term in office ended in a recession…an idiot like Bartlett was running the Treasury. Like AJC’s Bookman, Bartlett rehashes what he “heard” about the FairTax proposal instead of going directly to the source and actually reading the tiny little book. His only correct statement in the entire article was when he said that “Unfortunately…almost no one understands how the FairTax really works…” Yes, and that’s because average Joe-Public would rather rely on the AJC editors for their education instead of doing the research themselves. Unfortunately, the AJC editorial staff doesn’t do their own research very well if at all. I shook my head in disbelief on every inaccurate and mis-directed point made by Barlett starting with his very first one that stated that “…unless every state replaces its income tax…Americans will still have to file tax returns every year.” Duh! What does that have to do with the purpose of the FairTax which is to eliminate/replace the FEDERAL income tax. What an idiot. Barlett’s very next point is as stupid as the first. That “…many, many items not now covered by state sales taxes - is going to rise by 23 percent.” Hello, there’s absolutely no relationship between “state” sales taxes and the FairTax. Every item or service sold in America, whether now subject to state sales taxes or not, has embedded within it the costs of one or more of the federal taxes the FairTax would replace (corporate, individual, payroll, self-employment, capital gains, death and gift taxes). It doesn’t take a genius to understand that the FairTax would be cost neutral to the consumer and revenue neutral to the government. But, it does require that people invest a few hours to read the actual proposal in the book. The proposal created by John Linder was made simple enough for even a former Treasury Secretary to understand the concept. For the sake of Barlett (and Bookman), let me simplify it more. Just take the federal tax costs out of products and services (about 23 cents on a dollar according to well-renowned economists and from millions of dollars of research) and then apply the FairTax. Walla!!! You have the same cost for these items and services as we have it now only WE DON’T HAVE THE IRS, ACCOUNTING AND TAX FILING COSTS, AND THE AGGRAVATION OF OUR CURRENT TAX CODE. All the other “points” Barlett made are just as absurd, but I don’t have the stomach to continue this blog to such idiots.

By tuttigym

April 15, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

Hey “Truth”!! Boortz would be proud of you. You cannot provide any answers to any reasonable, factually correct, intellectually accurate rebuttals. Your only retorts and responses are belittling, insulting, epathets. So far there has been no supporter of the FT that can provide real answers to real questions. Karen Walby, Phd., the chief economist of Fair Tax.org, was generous, courteous, and honest in her responses to my inquiries. Her answers were: I do not know.

“Truth”? You need to change your name, how about “Classless Zealot”?

By Royal

April 15, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

The Farce Tax Gullible Crowd can’t “HANDLE THE TRUTH!” It’s plainly a “Pie in the Sky” idea, revived by a snake-oil selling, loudmouth huckster, who loves the sound of his own voice! Why would anyone that has even a half a brain, believe someone armed only with a with a 60’s era high school diploma, when it comes to their “TAXES” for God’a sake!

By tuttigym

April 15, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

“Fair Tax Supporter”: Do you suppose that you could answer any of my questions factually, accurately, and intellectually? Boortz’s third book does not even come close. There is virtually nothing contained in his 3 books that are written in the law - HR 25. His books and the law are not even similar.

I will assume that you have the intellect to read and understand the law. I also believe that the majority of advocates have read only the books and read the law.

What say you??

By tuttigym

April 15, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

“Fair Tax Supporter”: Do you suppose that you could answer any of my questions factually, accurately, and intellectually? Boortz’s third book does not even come close. There is virtually nothing contained in his 3 books that are written in the law - HR 25. His books and the law are not even similar.

I will assume that you have the intellect to read and understand the law. I also believe that the majority of advocates have read only the books and not read the law.

What say you??

By In the middle

April 15, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

Boortz did not refuse to debate Bookman. As a lister to his program, he said he would be happy to have Bookman on his show.

Also, both books, not 3 books, describes how the law would work. Anyone can read the actually law from a variety of websites.

By todd

April 15, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

Buckle up, this is long.

For those who argue that this would burden the poor by making them pay a larger percentage of income on taxes…

You are right. AND you are wrong.

Let’s take a family of 4 that makes $25K per year — the Needy family. That family spends every last dollar buying the necessities of life. They pay a 23% tax on everything they buy (let’s not argue over 30% vs. 23% again right now). What is their tax rate? Why, it is 23%, or 23% x $25K = $5,750, which is clearly higher than what they pay under the current system. You can now scream that these poor folks are paying a disproportionate share of the tax burden. What is wrong with this logic? It ignores the NET effect of the “Prebate” proposed in the FairTax solution. We MUST include this in the calculation to compare “apples-to-apples.”

Assume the FairTax Prebate sends the Needys 23% of $27K (I believe that is the definition of poverty level in the proposal, but if different, it would not change the point). How much does this family receive? They receive 23% x $27K = $6,210. In other words, they receive more than they pay! Their effective tax rate is therefore $5,750 - $6,210 = ($460), or negative 1.84%.

Now apply the logic to a family of 4 earning $100K - the Comfy family (rich?, wealthy?). If they spend 50% of their income and save/invest/give the remainder they would be spending twice as much as the Needy family, or $50K (50% of $100K). The tax on this would amount to $11,500. Their prebate would be the same $6,210. $11,500 - $6,210 = $5,290. This $5,290 represents 5.29% of their income. They are paying a higher share of their income in taxes!

Now let’s look at the Sniffy family, who earns $1 million. They spend 90% of their earnings on the latest in luxury and save/invest/give only 10%. They pay a tax of 90% x $1 million x 23% = $207,000. They receive the same $6,210 prebate for their family of 4 as does the Needys and the Comfys. Their net tax is therefore $207,000 - $6,210 = $200,790, or 20.08% of their earnings. They are paying the highest share of income in taxes!

We could all argue all day about what constitutes “poverty level.” Is it $27K, is it $35K, is it $15K. That misses the point. Our current tax system has a similar problem of having to define the break-points in income levels used to determine tax rates. There is no perfect system for figuring the answers to these questions. However the idea that we treat everyone equally in applying taxes to purchases seems quite fair. You should not have to wait in a longer line getting your government-required car tag because you make more money than the next guy in the door, you should not have to use a different government-funded road to get to work because you make more money than the guy in the next car, and you should not have to pay more tax than your neighbor just because you earn more than he does.

Thanks for reading.

By Bonedaddyr

April 15, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this

Hey Todd, why is a couple making only 25k a year having 2 kids for anyway. Poor choices my friend. Screw em.

By Kyle

April 15, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

Mr. Barlett clearly does not fully grasp the concept of the FairTax and either has not read The FairTax Book or just has no reading comprehension skills. Every point he made was false and poorly informed and is entirely refuted in the book. I suggest you actually read it, Mr. Bartlett.

By JR

April 15, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this

The most avid SC (so called) Fair Tair supporters I have met know very little about the bill. When you try to explain what section 801 does they will cal you a liar and say “Neal didn’t say that”.

By HeySoose

April 15, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

The Good Lord only requires a tithe of 10% so why should the government get any more than that?

By lovelyliz

April 15, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

We will alwalys need the IRS or a similar organiztion because een if the Fair Tax plan were to go as swimmingly easy as its supporters claim, and I have loads and loads of doubt about this, there will always be cheaters. There will always be people gaming the system.

By AssHat

April 15, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

Didn’t we revolt from England over taxation without representation? If that’s the case I want a refund for all my 44 years because I can’t remember ONE of my representatives actually representing me or my community.

By TinyJohnson

April 15, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

todd the tard and his half page diatribe…..dude, get over yourself

By JR

April 15, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

The wealthy will not pay a fairtax on yachts
or any big ticket items. They will form a corporation just like they do now. Do you truly think Bortz would buy a plane and pay tax on it if he can use his corporation and escape the tax? He’s laughing his behind off at you sheep!

By Diane

April 15, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

The current tax system is a byzantine mishmash that nobody - but nobody - understands. If that’s anybody’s concept of fair, they are a sick puppy.

If you claim a deduction, you’d better hold on that piece of paper for the rest of your natural, because you’d better be able to produce it in case you are audited. Is that fair?

If the point of taxes is to get money to operate the U.S., why put its citizens through this administrative hell every year? There are much, much simplier ways of doing this!

No, the Fair Tax isn’t perfect. But our current one is horrid. It’s worse than horrid. It’s driving business and jobs overseas and impoverishing our nation.

By Diane

April 15, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

JR - the point behind the Fair Tax is you pay sales tax when you buy something.

That means that however Neal Boortz buys a plane - on his own, through a corporation, etc., the tax gets paid. Period.

Not like now when politicans grant tax exemptions to their buddies. And laugh at us when they do it. The difference between me and you is that I can see they’re laughing - and you can’t see the woods for the trees.

By By Love

April 15, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

This debate is pointless, the system has too much inertia, and too many imbedded perks. The only people who will benefit from this are the authors and their agents.

By Craig

April 15, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

One of the silliest comments by the sales tax zealots is that taxes won’t go up because embedded taxes will be removed.

The thing is supposed to be revenue neutral, right? So now the government collects the embedded taxes, plus our income taxes. Under the sales tax plan, the embedded taxes won’t be there anymore, supposedly, and we won’t pay income taxes. Thus, a substantial reduction in tax receipts. Who’s going to make up the difference? Look in the mirror bubba.

Anyone who believes that Boortz has your interests at heart is a fool. If your income is between $30,000 and $250,000 or so, you will pay more under the sales tax plan.

No thanks. And yeah, zealots, I’ve read “THE BOOK.”

By By Love

April 15, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

One more point, who is going to force the wealthy to buy U.S. products inside theU.S.?

By Stop Spending

April 15, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this

Hey I have a novel idea. Tell John Linder the best tax reform is to lower spending, he and his Republican colleagues created this problem. I am for lower taxes not more. Linder is a tax and spend conservative Republican. What a joke. The whole party is a joke.

By mrk

April 15, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this

LOLO: Let me clarify, the current system is not perfect. However, you name one democratic nation that has a better system of taxes than us and I’ll kiss your white tag on your car. Heck, find any socialist or communist country with a better tax system…..I know it can be better. That’s the great thing about a progressive democratic nation. However, we must argue and fight and claw to make sure we make the right decision and not the decision being made by lobbyist, greedy politicians (who are large land owners), or other groups that would benefit from “reforms” or “mandates” or “policies”.

By jpc72

April 15, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

Why do people put more thought into saying what is wrong and less into coming up with what could be right? Could it be that the solution is a combination of many plans? Here are some examples:

By Heather Czerniak

April 16, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this

Bruce Bartlett and all others opposed to the FairTax have neither read nor understand it! It’s not some extra tax added on, it’s a replacement tax that replaces the already-embedded hidden taxes that are already part of the price. A $100 DVD player, for example, will still cost $100.

The way the economy is going now, we’d better do something fast to turn it around. I’m willing to give the FairTax a try. As a retail manager, I know how it will really work. You won’t pay more for the same goods than you pay now. If you did, I wouldn’t support it, because I’m a consumer just like many of you.

Unless those opposed to the FairTax can come up with a better idea, The FairTax gets my support. Politicians in Washington who support it will also get my vote.

By Hubert

April 16, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this

Well, just read the comments from the ‘Republican’ fan community and think a second about their arguments (if they have any other then flaming language against liberals, demoracts and other gay abortionists …) it’s about their so called “fairness” - well how can it be fair to take a sales tax, which hits everyone income independent instead on the basis of income dependance - so the ones who are fortunate (of course I hear the guys & ga’ls all claiming they “earned” it, yeah well greetings from Paris Hilton & co to the point of “earning” …) versus the middle class, which has seen total income stagnation since this godly took the cepter of Republican Monarchy … it’s distribution from the base to the top! Nothing else … thank for that form of fairness … Dumboortz of GA go home and train a bit math first.

By Hubert

April 16, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this

Well, just read the comments from the ‘Republican’ fan community and think a second about their arguments (if they have any other then flaming language against liberals, demoracts and other gay abortionists …) it’s about their so called “fairness” - well how can it be fair to take a sales tax, which hits everyone income independent instead on the basis of income dependance - so the ones who are fortunate (of course I hear the guys & ga’ls all claiming they “earned” it, yeah well greetings from Paris Hilton & co to the point of “earning” …) versus the middle class, which has seen total income stagnation since this godly took the cepter of Republican Monarchy … it’s distribution from the base to the top! Nothing else … thank for that form of fairness … Dumboortz of GA go home and train a bit math first.

By Barry

April 16, 2008 6:41 AM | Link to this

Hubert, It seems that you are not not able to stay away from flaming others. Let’s see, we are talking about sales taxes. You blather about the “godly taking the scepter of the republican monarchy”. For the love. Discover what a period is and use it.
Incidentally, there is an election coming. Please. Please. Please be very public with this kind of silly talk. We will have a Republican President for a hundred years if the public sees under the rock to people like you.

By jpc72

April 16, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this

Hubert,

Once again you give a prime example of the perspective that most americans have right now. Why not instead share a solution that will help yourself and others like you. Instead, your focus is the easy road which is to complain about what has been proposed. What would you suggest? The fair tax is just that. You complain about the rich getting richer and setting up the system to benefit themselves most. That is true, the current tax structure allows rediculous deductions for unnecessary purchases which, in some cases, negates the cost of the purchase itself. The easiest example is the deduction that had been allowed for vehicles exceeding a certain weight limit. The current system benefits both the ultra rich and the poor equally. It is the middle americans that are paying the highest percentages of income tax, currently. Why not have a consumption tax (fair tax) instead that collects from everyone, not just tax filers. Think of the revenues that would have been brought in from foreign tourists that came to the US for the sole purpose of buying goods at a huge discount (again because of the decline of the dollar). Also, would there be as many complaints about illegal immigrants? They would be paying into to the tax base and not receiving the monthly food credits based on not having a registered valid Social Security #. In essence, they would be contributing more to the system than legal citizens and foreign nationals. This would minimize the complaints of them receiving unjustified benefits. Again, my point is to encourage you and everyone else to educate yourself and not rely on the “party” decisions to be your own. Guess what, their decisions are not to benefit you most. Instead, it benefits themselves and the special interest groups they have developed relationships with over their careers in public office, regardless of the party (which is a seperate argument for term limits and the elimination of the current retirement system for elected officials).

By Royal

April 16, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this

In the Middle: Why would anybody in their right mind, go on Boortz’s “I’m In Love With Myself Show?” Boortz is not a honest broker, plus It’s all about Boortz,24/7! Put Boortz and Bookman in a nuetral setting, with no notes, each one of them asking the other a question, back and forth, with no filibusting allowed for two hours! In this way,neither one has control of the mike, or questions! I believe that Bookman had made a offer to debate Boortz under similar conditions, but Boortz turned him down!Boortz wanted to be paid and if I’m correct control the mike! When it comes to debating Boortz It’s Boortz’s way, or the highway!

By Mike

April 16, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Anyone who seriously researches both sides and applies non-politicized, critical thinking to this issue cannot be 100% sold on the Linder-Boortz version.

Does it have positive aspects? Yes, several. Any negative aspects? Of course, just as many or more depending on your current socioeconomic situation.

The “Prebate” idea is a sales point to the few Limbaugh-ites that still have any conscience or empathy left.

If it did happen, I sense that it would wind up coming back to bite those cult-level believers that make up its army of groundswell support.

In reality, it’s a joke to think any major changes will occur in our tax system. It’s too large and imbedded and would take far too much energy, money, and an overwhelming majority of popular support to ever happen.

Sort of like our runaway health-care system. We could benefit from a National Health Service similar to the UK, but it will never happen because too many folks get rich too easily (and I don’t mean Doctors) off our current system and it’s taboo to have anything SOCIALIZED, God forbid (thank you Joe McCarthy, what a legacy).

Too many angry, white middle-class Americans (I’m one of them) have been brainwashed by conservative media and watercooler conversations into believing that all of our problems (which are relatively few and minor if you take a serious look at the rest of the world) are caused by the “lazy, stupid poor” and illegal aliens. Meanwhile, we sit and worship the boob tube every night (I’m one of them, don’t you just love The Office!) and distract ourselves with our little electronic gadgets and head games.

The penultimate hilarity of all of it is that the for-profit media (whether liberal, moderate, or conservative) have become the greatest snake oil salesman in modern history. And what’s even funnier is that now all the tv shows we pay to watch are getting cheaper to produce because they star US (stupid, braindead, ordinary Americans) on reality shows.

If Nero fiddled while Rome burned, then we are all royalty my friends. If you want to affect real change in life learn to think critically for yourself. Don’t believe everything you hear/read from Rush or Al Franken or in your church or at your workplace. Because if you do always find yourself agreeing with those around you and to whom you listen and read, you are not a critical thinker Friendo - You Are LAZY. As lazy as any pregant, 14-yr-old ghetto, girlfriend that ever drew a welfare check. And you’re as dishonest as any illegal wetback that ever “stole” free healthcare in an emergency room while getting stitches for an injury he got while cutting YOUR grass (for an incredibly cheap price too, so give me his cell #!).

By Soothsayer

April 16, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Can the FairTax even work? How much would each and every single person in America have to spend each year for the FairTax to work? You will need an Excel spreadsheet to do this.

Our latest Federal budget is $3,000,000,000,000.00. To be “fair” take away the $4,000,000,000.00 deficit we run each year. So, our target revenue (TR) is $2,600,000,000,000.00. Since the FairTax (expressed as a sales tax) is 30% divide TR by .30. The result is the amount of goods and services that must be sold or purchased (GP)subject to the FairTax to generate the target revenue.

Since we must buy the good and/or service AND pay the tax, add TR and GP for the total outlay (TO) required to fund the government and remain “revenue neutral.”

Now divide TO by 300,000,000 (which is the approximate number of people in the US) to find the dollar amount that EACH AND EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE US WOULD HAVE TO SPEND EACH AND EVERY SINGLE YEAR for the FairTax to work.

Note that the above DOES NOT take into account the PREBATE or tax avoidance. No matter how fervently you support the FairTax, can you honestly say this is possible?

By boone

April 16, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

I am an American taxpayer for many years now and yes, I have read both books, and have somewhat studied the “Fair tax” system proposal. I do know this; the country is suffering under the hideously outdated harbingers brought forth under President Roosevelt’s “New Deal” institutionalism.

It is time for an overhaul, and this idea, while in my opinion is not perfect by any stretch, is markedly better than anything else I have come across. I only wish to pass what I have earned on to my beneficiaries with out having to dole out a portion to the income redistribution, entitlement bunch. You do not deserve a second portion.

By Pat

April 16, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

Anything to take power from the government and give it to the people…..I am all for it!

Any time the government interferes with the free market they mess it up. Example: Corn subsidies. The government thought it would be a good idea to pay farmers to produce more corn. What happened? The price of food has surged.

By quick GT math

April 16, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

To Soothsayer at 1132am

Good insight, but let’s make the math easy- why not take the $3 trillion budget, divide by the 300 million people, and assess every man, woman and child a Tax of $10,000 per year.

3things will happen quickly- Americans will wake up to the real cost of a bloated government because they will see the real cost in understandable terms

Americans will demand the reduction of the bloated government to bring their personal assessment to a lower $$ amount.

Taxes will be easy to file.

By quick GT math

April 16, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

To Soothsayer at 1132am

Good insight, but let’s make the math easy- why not take the $3 trillion budget, divide by the 300 million people, and assess every man, woman and child a Tax of $10,000 per year.

3things will happen quickly- Americans will wake up to the real cost of a bloated government because they will see the real cost in understandable terms

Americans will demand the reduction of the bloated government to bring their personal assessment to a lower $$ amount.

Taxes will be easy to file.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 16, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

quick GT math,

I can think of one thing that will happen quickly: A lot of tax bills will go unpaid.

Now, what do you suppose the consequences of these unpaid tax bill will be? Have you ever heard the stories of the things that happened to revenuers? So, given that the government will not collect the uniformly distributed tax from the 300 million, what happens next? Well, I will lay odds that we won’t suddenly slash government to eliminate the tax burden. Instead, those with more money will pay more of the taxes and they will do it willingly in order to avoid the consequences. You see, you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip so what are the alternatives.

By Simple Guy

April 16, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle. —Franklin D. Roosevelt

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. —Karl Marx

The revenues of Cuban state-run companies are used exclusively for the benefit of the people, to whom they belong. —Fidel Castro

We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. —Hillary Clinton

Enough is enough. —Simple guy in the middle class.

By Lysbeth Smith

April 16, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

I think it is completely worng that in a country founded by Christian free people, our society and polititians have swayed it so much that being sucessful or owning your own business or being profitable in any way is frowned upon. I cannot believe that this is what the founding fathers saw when they had this wonderful vision of America, where your dreams have no limits. The America I know now is laughable and that saddens me. But it also inspires me to help make a difference. I applaud you all for making your voices heard. What can we do except rise up and show the ignorant and uneducated their weaknesses. We need more respresentation for the Fair Tax and our representatives need to be loud and be heard.
Bold: Don’t be a silent majority, but an overwhelming voice of reason. There is comfort in knowing that someone is finally stating the problem AND providing a workable solution. I can only hope that we all can promote this idea and get it passed soon so America can be the prosperous nations it was meant to be!

By Yt Knight

April 16, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

On common theme I notice here is that FairTax opposers feel that the lower and middle class will pay more with the FairTax vs. the current system. Consider the working Americans (teachers, policemen, nurses, clerks, firemen, construction workers, etc. that Harry S. referred to on 4/15 at 9:12 AM). In fact, let’s go one better. Let’s take a retired person who is on Social Security who pays 0% in federal income tax currently. I argue that when they make purchases of essentials that they still contribute via the embedded taxes.

If they buy eggs & milk (say $10 worth) and the grocer must use American workers (from marketing/purchasing/shelf stockers through the actual checker, the grocer pays employer-matching FICA and Medicare equal to 7.65% of the wages involved with the grocer’s business. This 7.65% (which is called “payroll taxes” vs. “income” taxes) is priced into the price of the eggs and milk. If the grocer makes a profit with his business, he must pay corporate taxes of 25% or so. That 25% must be priced into the offering of eggs and milk. The equipment that the grocer must purchase and maintain have payroll and corporate taxes priced in. The distribution company and the dairies involved (and all of their marketing, sales, equipment purchases/maintenance, etc.) have payroll and corporate taxes priced in at their levels. In addition, all of these businesses must keep records and pay CPAs and Tax Attorneys in order to be in compliance.

All of these prices if removed would enable our retired grandmother on a fixed income to make her acquisitions for a pre-FairTax price of about $7.50 vs. the $10 that she is paying now.

Now, with the FairTax, the grocer will price the eggs and milk at $10.00 and the receipt will show that $2.30 went to Uncle Sam. Also, Grandmother gets a check from Uncle Sam for close to $200 per month to untax her basic necessities.

Substitute grandmother for any of the “working Americans” and they get their whole paycheck to pay the same that they are paying now.

How can this possibly be? Well folks, there are tax payers (generally all of us here) and there are tax avoiders. The FairTax does a great job of inviting all of those tax avoiders into the fold.

Final point is that if folks still believe that the losers with the FairTax are the lower and middle classes… Please… Who do you really think those 66,000 pages of tax code are designed to protect? Can you say special interests with BIG bucks to throw at Washington lobbyists? The ultra rich pay very little relatively in taxes. They have their wealth parked offshore to avoid paying taxes. Think about it people. The FairTax removes all of the smoke and mirrors and the “game” that U.S. politicians play.

Cheers,

YK

By Joe H

April 17, 2008 12:17 AM | Link to this

— Gary,

President Bush’s Advisory Panel on Tax Reform did not evaluate the FairTax as written. Period. End of case, and know what you are talking about before posting.

— Bill Rep. Linder did not flunk math - you did! Under the FairTax, embedded cumulative taxes of ~23% are removed, therefore your supposition that “something is worth a $1.00 before tax” is wrong. When the FairTax of 23% is added in at the cash register the receipt will show 77 cents for what you are purchasing, and 23 cents for the FairTax .23 + .77 = $1.00. Now go back to grade school, and either learn to do your home work so you know what you are talking about before posting, or quit trying to deceive…

By Joe H

April 17, 2008 12:23 AM | Link to this

GaLiberal,

It is quite clear that you have not read the books, the research, or the the legislation in its legal form, or the layman’s version - the latter two available on the FairTax website.

Right now you simply don’t know what you are talking about.

By Daniel

April 17, 2008 12:46 AM | Link to this

I myself am a goverment employee, Not to be confussed with a politician. I pay payroll taxes, even to my employer, the state of which I reside…..go figure. It is well past time that the Fair Tax be passed. We have too many people taking advantage of goverment services all the while never paying 1 cent into the system. This is not fair to the rest of us who work and only wish to support ourselves and our family when we have people using the same services we use, IE police and fire protection, but never paying into it. The people not paying into these services tend to be the primary users of said services. It’s time all pay their share and this is the best way to see to it. At the same time, you give the average tax paying citizen the power of their income back to them. Debt will decline as well as the added stress of the current tax system.

By Doc

April 17, 2008 1:14 AM | Link to this

How do you explain organizations like the National Taxpayers Union and other think-tanks who support the FairTax?

This organization among others have some very sharp and intelligent people working for them (economists, statisticians, mathematitions)- and they support the FairTax.

The FairTax also broadens America’s tax base to include illegals, foreign visitors and illicit businesses (drugs, prostitution, etc).

As for a flat tax…it only collects taxes from American workers. With the coming wave of baby-boomers entering retirement, there are not enough American workers (from which to collect Social Security taxes) to support them.

I find it ironic that ponzi schemes are deemed illegal by our benevolent government, yet the Social Security tax is one of the biggest ponzi schemes ever created.

The Social Security taxes collected from the young working class of today is going to support those who are retired and collecting Social Security.

If the government had saved and invested the Social Security taxes that it had collected from todays baby-boomers (when they were the young working class), they would all be wealthy and be able to retire comfortably without government help.

The only wealthy retirees I know were ones who invested their own money…not the ones who relied on the government to care for them.

Bottom Line: The FairTax puts the individual back in control of how much taxes he/she pays. It also removes the fear of the IRS - something that no American should have to live with.

Furthermore, the FairTax is based on consumption. And anyone with a brain knows that those with more money consume more than those with less, therefore the wealthy naturally end up paying more taxes than the poor.

And for those who are uninformed on the matter, the consumption tax is only collected on NEW purchases, not on USED purchases.

By Nick Garzilli

April 17, 2008 4:24 AM | Link to this

The FairTax is the most important piece of legislation in Congress today. It solves so many problems it is impossible to count. The FairTax is the only way to save this country from a bleak future. I encourage everyone to learn more and do what you can to educate the public about how important it is.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

Well, Boortz and Linder have demonstrated their abilities to gather a cult following. If they didn’t have their groupies, they would be out of jobs. Linder has to keep spouting his nonsense in order to keep his constituency happy while all along he knows full well that the best thing he could do for the taxpayer is resign. Boortz knows that his paycheck depends on his ability to generate advertising revenue. So, we know what to expect from idiots like him. If it were my show and he called in, I would rule over him. He would be reduced to rubble. Every time he tried to spout his garbage, I would put him in his place. It is just that simple. Now this tax that these two are pushing is nothing more than a means of getting publicity. There is no critical review of this new system of taxation because the “money” behind this new system knows that such a critical review would destroy it. That is fact. Linder knows its and Boortz knows it. They will not admit it. They will not submit themselves to questioning by people that could put an end to their charade.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this

You have to love folks like Fairly Odd Tax.

They will promote the conspiracies around the FairTax while ignoring the power politicians get through the “progressive” income tax. In ignoring the political power attained from the “progressive” income tax they overlook the motivation of people to preserve it.

To make themselves feel better they need to generalize and criticize others - but not government. Useful idiots?

By The Outcome

April 17, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

The ridiculous statements people make to “justify” their leader’s so-called fair tax. Do these people even think through their statements. Obviously not. Take this one for example:

“The FairTax is the most important piece of legislation in Congress today. It solves so many problems it is impossible to count. The FairTax is the only way to save this country from a bleak future.”

The most important piece of legislation? More important than a war? More important than than our survival? Precisely, what does this scam solve that cannot be solved any other way or is not going to be solved any other way?

This comment is a real doozy. It’s just the ultimate in idiocy:

“Bottom Line: The FairTax puts the individual back in control of how much taxes he/she pays. It also removes the fear of the IRS - something that no American should have to live with.”

This person claims that, with this so-called fair tax, the people will have some new type of control over paying taxes that they never have had or ever will have through any other means. So, if a group of people decide that they don’t want to pay taxes any more, they just don’t have to spend a dime on anything that is taxed. Let’s suppose, for argument’s sake, that a group of 100 million people did this. The government is still there providing roads, bridges, police, blah, blah, blah, for the 300 million but only 200 million are now paying taxes. You fair tax supporters just cannot figure it out unless it’s printed in black and white for you in a book, can you. Do I have to write you a book explaining all the things that Linder and Boortz won’t explain to you lemmings. By the way, don’t fear the government (IRS included) unless they show up dressed like a bunch of storm troopers demanding your payment of taxes.

By james brown sr.

April 17, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Y yell put on the news lets roll.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

Scooter seems to be the fairly odd sort to criticize by claiming the opposition uses generalizations. Yet, the basis for this so-called fair tax is nothing but a pile of generalizations and wild assumptions with no link to reality, no critical review, no background information or studies to justify the claims, etc. Of course, Scooter’s generalizations didn’t cover that aspect. Useful? Idiot? By the way, I did not offer conspiracies. Get you saviors, Boortz and Linder, to put up or shut. After all, they’re the ones who put this so-called fair tax scam out there so they should have to adequately defend it against all criticisms. They have not. It is not the responsibility of those criticizing this scam to defend it. You just don’t seem to possess the mental capacity to grasp this basic concept.

By Charlie

April 17, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

In my book coming out later this year “Tax is a 4 Letter Word” I point out that the fair tax is needed but more important we need to get the crooks in Washington under control, this means the Bushes, Clintons, Kennedys, Kerrys ad nasaum. The Fair Tax should START at 12% and could be reduced to 8% once the defict is paid off. We need to get all of the Pork (read theft) under control.

Under the Fair Tax, the nearly 40% of the population of the USA that do not pay any kind of federal taxes now, will for the first time, pay to support the federal needs.

We need to get back to the basics of the Consitutuin which out lined the responsibility of the feds which was

Our goverment is so out of control that the continued existance of The United States of America is in serious doubt.

By Carolyn Walter

April 17, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

How come everyone that has looked at The Fair Tax “gets it” but you don’t!! What is wrong with this picture! And why do you insist on calling it “the SO CALLED” Fair Tax. This is not imagainary…it is real and this country would benefit so much from this that when it happens..and it will…you will be forced to eat your words.

By Mike Norwood

April 17, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Another diatribe from someone who obviously has not read the FairTax book. Prices will not increase by 23 cents. If anything the price on everything will be reduced, due to the cost of compliance with the existing tax system, which are embedded in every product or service purchased. As for states having to adopt the same system, that should be left up to the voters in those states to decide, per the 10th Amendment.

By Casey

April 17, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Wow. As usual the majority of the people who are criticizing the FairTax are largely ignorant about the details of the plan.

That tax advisory panel that rejected the FairTax? They changed the terms of the FairTax based on how THEY thought it should work THEN they rejected it.

Remember, the FairTax was crafted by Harvard and MIT economists. It’s not just some pie in the sky dream made up by ignorant law makers. This tax plan has more research and development behind it than any other tax plan out there. It would be a great benefit to us all regardless of “progressivity”.

Why reject something good for us all just to punish some rich people? I don’t get it.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

Carolyn claims that “everyone” that has looked at this so-called fair tax gets it but one person. First, Carolyn, give me your definition of “everyone” for it obviously differs from the definition I learned. Second, do you understand that the word “fair” is relative (and I don’t mean that it is related to anyone). Some people think that it is fair to drink and drive — others don’t. Some people think that it is fair for a business owner to hire illegal aliens to work for them in the US for below minimum wage and to provide them with no benefits. These business owners surely believe it to be fair also to call for these illegal aliens to not stay here once they are of no more benefit to the business. Then again, sometimes one has to look beyond that which is served up on a radio show or in a book. That would be fair. I cannot imagine that happening because people like Linder and Boortz have not told their followers to do that.

By JONI

April 17, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

As my new house is being built, the builder pays tax on every board, nail, etc. Then the house is sold and another tax is added. Then the house is sold again - and again - and again - with a tax added each time. I REALLY like the plan to pay ONLY one tax on that NEW FINISHED item. Look what I saved! JONI

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Now Casey is claiming to know that the majority of the people criticizing the so-called fair tax are largely ignorant about the details. Should Casey be referred to as a mind reader? You don’t like it when other educated people change the assumptions used in the calculations yet you provide no defense for the original assumptions. Let your educated ones, including Linder and Boortz defend their claims. If they disagree with the advisory panel, let them debate it publicly with them. Call up Linder and Boortz and tell them to defend your honor. After all, you believe everything they have told you and you will not tolerate any dissension from the ignorant ones that dare to disagree.

By Joni

April 17, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

by Joni: When a new house is built the builder pays tax on every nail, board, etc and then when the house is sold there is a tax on the buyer.The house gets sold again - and again - and again - each time putting a tax on the buyer. I REALLY like the idea of One tax on one NEW house (or car)! JONI

By Jeff Wangsgard

April 17, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

BRUCE BARTLETT is THE MAN!! I really appreciate the help he has given the FairTax cause by sending out the MISINFORMATION that he has on this issue. It really does stir things up and serves to rile up the proponents of the FairTax to get the correct information to the public. Bartlett has done more to help the FairTax by spreading his brand of sunshine. (We call it something else when we clean out the corral and put it on the fields in Utah.) Bruce…Thank you so much for your help. You could probably hurt the FairTax by keeping your mouth shut.

By Gene

April 17, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Obviously he did not read either book. He does not take into concideration that as the imbedded taxes (STATE & FEDERAL) will come out of the price, the price will go DOWN before the 23% is added…and 23% of a lower cost item will result in actually lowering the cost of a product. Couple that with the fact that EVERYONE who spends a dollar in this country, Tourists, citzens, even the illegals, will be purchasing items, so EVERY dollar spent contributes to both the STATE and Feds…so WE have to agree with him…THE States NEED to adopt the Fait Tax as well…and obviously the rate for the state would not be 23%. That was the figure used for Federal monies… the individual State Fair tax would have to be calculated per state as each state rate is different…His argument against the the FT just points out his inability to actually think the process through to it’s logical conclusion.

By Jim

April 17, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Link:Read the Truth I surpose most all of you are intelligent people since you read the Paper(at least online), and I hope you all really care about this Country and it’s future, for your children and their children’s sake. Please take the time to learn exactly how the FAIRTAX works with the prebate, and removal of all current Federal embedded taxes, as well as payroll, social security, medicare,income,capital gains,and corporate taxes. Replacing it with a progressive embedded 23% consumption tax that makes sure no one pays any tax on the poverty level of income for their size family. Nothing since the Constitution has ever been as important as the FAIRTAX is now and the Millions of us across AMERICA who volunteer regularly to spread the word will get this passed for the future of our Nation, come Hell or High water!!!!!

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Ignorance and apathy will keep the FairTax from becoming law. Ignorance can be cured with education. Apathy can be cured with caring. Many posts here show that people that are ignorant of the facts and don’t care to learn. Brue Barlett and the President’s Tax Reform Panel are different. They intentionally distort and misinform about the FairTax. Neither takes the FairTax, ” as written, ” into consideration. Those opposed to the FairTax would have sided with the British in 1776. Those in favor would have fought for freedom. Some things never change.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Fairly OPdd Tax, what is your point? I have a degree in economics and have independently studied the FairTax for years, don’t listen to Neal Boortz and would love to address your SPECIFIC concerns, time permitting of course.

Honestly you didn’t present conspiracy theories, I’m just having a hard time identifying what you are saying. You seem to spend most of your time talking about FairTax supporters not any specifics of the FairTax - perhaps I missed them. If so, idulge me with a brief summary of specifics.

By Bill Boykin

April 17, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

While our Fair Tax group passed out literature outside the main post office on 15 April, a young Florida accounting student stopped to talk for a while. He understood that the Fair Tax would provide great economic growth and allow young people to generate wealth in order to get off the Government’s “plantation”. He understood how the Fair Tax would bring production back to the USA with stabilization in wages or better. He also knew that as an accountant his business would not be in Federal tax returns. He was one of many African-Americans that were glad to get the information. I would estimate that 85% of African-Americans were genuinely interested in the Fair Tax while more than 50% of college age white people had zero interest. With the loss of purchasing power and maybe the onset of hyperinflation, what will those that oppose the Fair Tax propose in order to bring wealth to “the least” of us while allowing the USA to regain the wealth necessary to be a full participant in helping poor countries?

By Pam

April 17, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

I am sure that the author of this article studied journalism and not economics in school. Unlike this list of Fair Tax supporters…they are the experts…

Donald L. Alexander Professor of Economics Western Michigan University

Wayne Angell Angell Economics

Jim Araji Professor of Agricultural Economics University of Idaho

Ray Ball Graduate School of Business University of Chicago

Roger J. Beck Professor Emeritus Southern Illinois University,

Carbondale John J. Bethune Kennedy Chair of Free Enterprise

Barton College David M. Brasington Louisiana State University

Jack A. Chambless Professor of Economics Valencia College

Christopher K. Coombs Louisiana State University

William J. Corcoran, Ph.D. University of Nebraska at Omaha

Eleanor D. Craig Economics Department University of Delaware

Susan Dadres, Ph.D. Department of Economics Southern Methodist University

Henry Demmert Santa Clara University

Arthur De Vany Professor Emeritus Economics and Mathematical Behavioral Sciences

University of California, Irvine Pradeep Dubey Leading Professor Center for Game Theory Dept. of Economics

SUNY at Stony Brook Demissew Diro Ejara William Paterson University of New Jersey

Patricia J. Euzent Department of Economics University of Central Florida

John A. Flanders Professor of Business and Economics Central Methodist University

Richard H. Fosberg, Ph.D. William Paterson University

Gary L. French, Ph.D. Senior Vice President Nathan Associates Inc.

Professor James Frew Economics Department Willamette University

K. K. Fung University of Memphis

Satya J. Gabriel, Ph.D. Professor of Economics and Finance Mount Holyoke College

Dave Garthoff Summit College

The University of Akron Ronald D. Gilbert Associate Professor of Economics Texas Tech University

Philip E. Graves Department of Economics University of Colorado

Bettina Bien Greaves, Retired Foundation for Economic Education

John Greenhut, Ph.D. Associate Professor Finance & Business Economics School of Global Management and Leadership Arizona State University

Darrin V. Gulla Dept. of Economics University of Georgia

Jon Halvorson Assistant Professor of Economics Indiana University of Pennsylvania

Reza G. Hamzaee, Ph.D. Professor of Economics & Applied Decision Sciences Department of Economics Missouri Western State College

James M. Hvidding Professor of Economics Kutztown University

F. Jerry Ingram, Ph.D. Professor of Economics and Finance The University of Louisiana- Monroe

Drew Johnson Fellow Davenport Institute for Public Policy Pepperdine University

Steven J. Jordan Visiting Assistant Professor Virginia Tech Department of Economics

Richard E. Just University of Maryland

Dr. Michael S. Kaylen Associate Professor University of Missouri

David L. Kendall Professor of Economics and Finance University of Virginia’s College at Wise

Peter M. Kerr Professor of Economics Southeast Missouri State University

Miles Spencer Kimball Professor of Economics University of Michigan

James V. Koch Department of Economics Old Dominion University

Laurence J. Kotlikoff Professor of Economics Boston University

Edward J. López Assistant Professor University of North Texas

Franklin Lopez Tulane University

Salvador Lopez University of West Georgia

Yuri N. Maltsev, Ph.D. Professor of Economics Carthage College

Glenn MacDonald John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics and Strategy Washington University in St. Louis

Dr. John Merrifield, Professor of Economics University of Texas-San Antonio

Dr. Matt Metzgar Mount Union College

Carlisle Moody Department of Economics College of William and Mary

Andrew P. Morriss Galen J. Roush Professor of Business Law & Regulation Case Western Reserve University School of Law

Timothy Perri Department of Economics Appalachian State University

Mark J. Perry School of Management and Department of Economics University of Michigan-Flint

Timothy Peterson Assistant Professor Economics and Management Department Gustavus Adolphus College

Ben Pierce Central Missouri State University

Michael K. Pippenger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Economics University of Alaska

Robert Piron Professor of Economics Oberlin College

Mattias Polborn Department of Economics University of Illinois

Joseph S. Pomykala, Ph.D. Department of Economics Towson University

Barry Popkin University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill

Steven W. Rick Lecturer, University of Wisconsin Senior Economist, Credit Union National Association

Paul H. Rubin Samuel Candler Dobbs Professor of Economics & Law Department of Economics Emory Univeristy

John Ruggiero University of Dayton

Michael K. Salemi Bowman and Gordon Gray Professor of Economics University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Dr. Carole E. Scott Richards College of Business State University of West Georgia

Carlos Seiglie Dept. of Economics Rutgers University

John Semmens Economist Phoenix College Arizona

Alan C. Shapiro Ivadelle and Theodore Johnson Professor of Banking and Finance Marshall School of Business University of Southern California

Dr. Stephen Shmanske Professor of Economics California State University, Hayward

James F. Smith University of North Carolina- Chapel Hill

Vernon L. Smith Economist W. James Smith Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences and Professor of Economics University of Colorado at Denver

John C. Soper Boler School of Business John Carroll University

Roger Spencer Professor of Economics Trinity University

Daniel A. Sumner, Director, University of California Agricultural Issues Center and the Frank H. Buck, Jr., Chair Professor, Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics,

University of California, Davis Curtis R. Taylor Professor of Economics and Business

Duke University Robert Vigil Analysis Group, Inc.

John H. Wicks, Ph.D. Professor Emeritus Department of Economics University of Montana

F. Scott Wilson, Ph.D. Canisius College

Mokhlis Y. Zaki Professor of Economics Emeritus Northern Michigan University

HMMMMM MAYBE IT’S A GOOD IDEA???

By krw

April 17, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

To CopyLeft (and all the other naysayers),

“News flash, folks; I HAVE read the book.” Perhaps with your eyes shut? You don’t offer any actual arguments against the FairTax, just juvenile swipes at something you clearly don’t understand.

You and your fellow naysaying ostriches should read HR 25, or, better yet, read Tuerck’s Tax Notes rebuttal to Bartlett (Google Tuerck for sources) to learn the true skinny on the FT, if you have the guts (and smarts) to do so.

By Jeffrey Locke

April 17, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

Bruce Bartlett and the like are distorting the Fairtax because the Fairtax grassroot movement has become increasingly bothersome, making inroads into serious circles of consideration. People tend to fufill what satisfies themselves and their self-interest. Fairtax supporters are a different breed altogether. They rise to defend the truth and eliminate the distortions spun to defend the status quo. Yes indeed! I applaud the progress that has revealed to all the self-serving nature of those who would paint a picture of a mad plot to wreck the economy and destroy the middle class. If you haven’t noticed already it is the current tax code that has caused the extinction of the American Dream and the ever shrinking middle class. So the world is flat? Sounds like those who criticize the Fairtax continue to fall flat as the reasons behind the Fairtax gain traction. Keep up the good fight Fairtax supporters. It is a far far better thing that you do than you have ever done before. Take care and God bless!

By krw

April 17, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax (April 17, 2008 9:06 AM),

“…the basis for this so-called fair tax is nothing but a pile of generalizations and wild assumptions with no link to reality, no critical review, no background information or studies to justify the claims….”

Your comment belies your ignorance of not only the FairTax but also all the research that is its foundation. I refer you to my earlier post to CopyLeft (another “odd” one, it seeems) referencing the Tuerck Tax Notes paper. You should read it, if, that is, you have the “mental capacity to grasp” it. Good luck.

By James

April 17, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

WHETHER YOU’RE WORKING OR RETIRED, STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET OR COMFORTABLE IN THE MIDDLE-CLASS, YOUR BENEFITS WITH THE NEW FAIRTAX ARE TRULY PHENOMENAL!

Dear Tax Payer, Imagine a NEW tax system that lets you decide when you pay taxes and how much…saves you thousands in income and payroll taxes every year…and finally unburdens you from the IRS. Well, that’s exactly what the new FairTax does for you! You see, the FairTax repeals all personal income, gift, estate, capital gains, AMT, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment and corporate taxes. Instead of all these unfair taxes, all we’ll have to do is pay a consumption tax at the cash register each time we buy goods and services. But only for new goods because all used goods are tax free. With the FairTax, the IRS is phased out and no individual or business is required to file an income or payroll tax return again, EVER! Also, the FairTax fully funds Social Security, Medicare, and all other government services! And to make sure no family pays any taxes on the necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care etc), the FairTax has a generous built-in rebate system so each household in America is mailed a check on the 1st of each and every month for between $188-$767! The truly incredible benefits and advantages of the FairTax don’t stop there… • Since capital and labor won’t be penalized by taxes, businesses will stampede to locate in the US. We’ll become the #1 place in the world for corporations, manufacturing, plants, and service companies. This translates into JOBS AND MORE JOBS while the Gross Domestic Product explodes 9-14%, supercharging our economy! • Continues funding for Social Security and Medicare and provides for all other government services… Right now, only 40% of our people actually pay taxes out of a population of close to 300,000,000. But with the FairTax, everyone pays a small amount — honest, hardworking Americans, big-spending teens, 50 million or so annual foreign visitors, illegal aliens, and even those who now escape taxes altogether because they are part of a trillion-dollar underground/criminal economy… • Your spendable income increases by thousands because you get to keep 100% of your paycheck, pension and all other income. This in turn pushes your spendable income upwards an incredible 48.05%! • Hidden taxes (estimated by experts to be 20-25% in the price of everything you buy today from a bar of soap to a car or house) disappear! • Interest rates drop 25% or more which helps businesses expand and create even more jobs while saving you thousands more each year on credit card interest, car loans, your mortgage payment, you name it! • Weeds out all the political graft, fraud, shady transactions and awesome piles of campaign cash funneled by lobbyists, the privileged, the wealthy, and the connected to get tax breaks, exemptions, credits, and other loopholes. You might be thinking the FairTax is, “too good to be true”… NOT SO! The FairTax bill is already in Congress and has over 50 co-sponsors… It’s backed by 75 famous economists from such prestigious institutions like Harvard University… the President has said he would be “open” to it, the Speaker of the House of Representatives wants it, and even the venerable Alan Greenspan, retired Chairman of the Federal Reserve says that a consumption tax system “would be best from the perspective of promoting economic growth”… So, we have traction in Washington! In fact, the only thing that’s missing is your additional support, and that’s what I’m asking for today… Imagine a life where wealth and opportunity are in abundance. A life where you keep 100% of your income… foreign companies flock to America creating jobs, a booming economy and a better standard of living for the poor and every other American. Imagine NO withholding, NO filing, NO heavy-handed enforcement, NO audits, NO confiscation… Imagine NEVER having to file a personal or business income tax return. Being able to give your assets or income to anyone you wish without paperwork, reporting, taxes, or other complications… How does that make you feel? If you’re like most folks you’re “relieved”, “excited”, or even “ecstatic”. Check out www.fairtax.org But like all truly good things in life the FairTax comes with a price — your personal support… NOTHING you can tell yourself, NOTHING you can say to others, NOTHING you can think or feel or imagine is going to get the FairTax enacted. The only thing that’ll work is ACTION! So please call upon both your House of Representatives and Senator to get off their duffs and enact the FairTax.

By Mark

April 17, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

I am sure I am repeating things already said, but as a small business owner Fairtax would work extremely well.

When you purchase a product, much of the price of that product is overhead due to taxes and the personnel to deal with taxes, payroll, legal, etc.

What alot of people do not understand, the tax DOES NOT APPLY to business to business transactions. It only applies to business to consumer. Thus, by eliminating the IRS and all backend taxes, you cut the overhead that is built into that product, which should result in lower prices.

We purchase some items, mainly software from overseas, we pay a GST tax on purchases, at first I disliked this, but the more and more I understand how it works, the better this type of tax system is.

It is also stated that states should be able to cut their sales tax down, which would be a plus.

Also, to keep this short, think about it this way.

Every single government employee is payed by our current taxes and the matching is also paid by them. Our elected officials get a completely different plan for retirement than we do, also funded by us. ALL OF THIS goes away.

The requested budget for the IRS for 2008 was over 11 BILLION dollars! This would be almost entirely eliminiated. BUT, the savings to all other government agencies by not having to administer payroll taxes, nor pay the matching payroll taxes to every government employee WILL reduce their budget needs.

The system is so broke, since Bush has been in office the number of lines of tax code essentially DOUBLED! Who benefits? not the middle class and not the poor.

Hopefully all of this makes sense. People are so resistent to change, I just don’t understand how one can think this would not work when other countries that have went to a consumption based tax have been better off.

Oh, and instead of this joke of a ‘tax rebate’ let’s just change the tax code NOW. This would be an immediate benefit to the economy. I wonder how much it cost the government(oh, I mean us tax payers) to do this whole rebate thing, it is a joke now as it was several years ago.

By Mark

April 17, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

I am sure I am repeating things already said, but as a small business owner Fairtax would work extremely well.

When you purchase a product, much of the price of that product is overhead due to taxes and the personnel to deal with taxes, payroll, legal, etc.

What alot of people do not understand, the tax DOES NOT APPLY to business to business transactions. It only applies to business to consumer. Thus, by eliminating the IRS and all backend taxes, you cut the overhead that is built into that product, which should result in lower prices.

We purchase some items, mainly software from overseas, we pay a GST tax on purchases, at first I disliked this, but the more and more I understand how it works, the better this type of tax system is.

It is also stated that states should be able to cut their sales tax down, which would be a plus.

Also, to keep this short, think about it this way.

Every single government employee is payed by our current taxes and the matching is also paid by them. Our elected officials get a completely different plan for retirement than we do, also funded by us. ALL OF THIS goes away.

The requested budget for the IRS for 2008 was over 11 BILLION dollars! This would be almost entirely eliminiated. BUT, the savings to all other government agencies by not having to administer payroll taxes, nor pay the matching payroll taxes to every government employee WILL reduce their budget needs.

The system is so broke, since Bush has been in office the number of lines of tax code essentially DOUBLED! Who benefits? not the middle class and not the poor.

Hopefully all of this makes sense. People are so resistent to change, I just don’t understand how one can think this would not work when other countries that have went to a consumption based tax have been better off.

Oh, and instead of this joke of a ‘tax rebate’ let’s just change the tax code NOW. This would be an immediate benefit to the economy. I wonder how much it cost the government(oh, I mean us tax payers) to do this whole rebate thing, it is a joke now as it was several years ago.

By Mark

April 17, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Oh, One thing I would change, the prebate. There would be no mailing of checks. Every household would be required to have a checking or savings account and the prebate would be deposited to it. I feel that this would be a fair requirement, and would save a huge amount of money on printing/mailing/managing checks which is quite costly.

By Skip

April 17, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

For every negative bloger re the FairTax I have a question. “Why are you so in love with the current income tax code?”

By Frank

April 17, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

It amazes me how many people are blinded by their hatred for opposing political groups. It seems they would rather drown than take the reaching hand of an opposing party member to pull them out of the water. The most blatent example in this blog is from ‘galiberal’. This person literally turned every single fact of the matter upside down and then seasoned them with class envy and served it up (overcooked at that). This fairtax proposal has nothing in it for rich, controlling, self rightious, self fullfilling prophesisers. Maybe that’s why they seem to scream the loudest against it. People like ‘galiberal’ don’t fool me, they are not stupid like they seem at first. They are terrified at the prospect of losing their means of control or reasons to hate. Pray for all like them. Then petition your representatives until they cave in.

By scb

April 17, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Taxing income and investments should be unconstitutional. The Fairtax is fairer that what we have now. With no with holding of federal income tax and social security tax we would have a substantial raise. Add to that the prebate and you have a much better economic stimulus that what our government recently approved.

With that increase in monthly income to the average family, we should see the greatest economic boom since WWII. And our investments and savings should go up substantially, giving a big boost to the stock market.

If we don’t do it, some other country will, then we will have to play catch up.

By Malcolm

April 17, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

HELL YES!!

By Firedawg676

April 17, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

Some of the arguments are absolutely ridiculous!! There was one post that said “there should be a lower tier of tax rates” for lower income earners or “nonearners”. Once again, let’s punish people for being succesfull or working hard. Then there’s the “let’s just raise taxes on the “evil” corporations”. Who do you think is going to ultimately pay those taxes? Businesses will just pass that on to the consumer in the form of higher prices, just as cutting corprate taxes will ultimately lead to lower prices for the consumer. Don’t let the Democrats fool you into thinking they want what’s best for the poor, as long as they keep giving handouts, their voter base will never move up economically, and in turn will always be there to vote Democrat!

By Copyleft

April 17, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

“For every negative bloger re the FairTax I have a question—Why are you so in love with the current income tax code?”

That’s what we call a false dichotomy, Skip; the error of black-or-white thinking. And it’s been addressed SEVERAL times in this very discussion.

Disagreeing with the UnfairTax does not—repeat, NOT—make one a wholehearted, uncritical supporter of the current system. It’s entirely possible to dislike our current system and still not turn to an obviously worse “solution.”

By William Moore

April 17, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW!

By dat n**** b-room

April 17, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

yo i think your all gaaaaaay and thats all i gotta say

By Phil

April 17, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

“Precisely, what does this scam solve that cannot be solved any other way or is not going to be solved any other way?”

I would not say that the FairTax is the only way to address the myriad of economic challenges that we face which are contributed to by the current tax system, only that it is by far the most comprehensive and effective way to do so. A partial list of those challenges is 1. the looming insolvency of Social Security and Medicare, 2. the enormous and growing trade deficit and loss of our manufacturing base, 3. the declining and now negative individual savings rate, 4. the slow growing economy and the federal budget deficit which that contributes to, 5. the spiral of complexity and higher compliance costs of the current system, 6. the AMT 7. the rapid rate of increases in health care costs

Each and every one of these challenges gets bigger with each passing year.

I am unawre of any tax reform proposal which addresses these issues as effectively as the FairTax does. If there is one, please educate me.

By Casey

April 17, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax the reason I can determine that there is a lot of ignorance about the plan among dissenters is because many people are making erroneous or false statements about how the plan works. It’s as simple as that.

Also I don’t think it’s fair of you to criticize everyone who supports the FairTax by claiming they are just following others and can’t reason for themselves. This is a very petty argument and it has little to do with the issue at hand. Oh, unless you are a “mind reader” and you know how we all came to support the plan. :P

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

krw, Scooter, et al,

Your comments belie your ignorance. So there. What will you say next, I wonder. Come on. Keep throwing out your thought-provoking comments and I’ll throw something of equal or greater value right back. You and your following simply refuse to accept the fact that there are intelligent, well-educated people, including myself, that do not buy the song-and-dance routine you offer. Our own government did not buy it so you and your groupies just dismiss them instead of taking their work and properly addressing their concerns. Other reputable people have challenged this so-called fair tax and again you dismiss their concerns instead of actually addressing them. The same thing with Linder and Boortz. You don’t have to address my specific issues. Just address those issues that are already out there first and then we can go from there. I await hearing from our government that their study has been properly addressed by the supporters of the so-called fair tax.

By Frank

April 17, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

Now for the rest of the ‘honestly mistaken’ people who keep repeating untruths and making self contradicting statements about the fair tax. Try using the scientific method of testing an idea; Before posting a comment take it and compare it to the actual research and data provided by the fairtax.org and the hundreds of accredited economists that back it up. Then test the critics statements that you based your objections on by whether they are made out of anger, envy, lack of economic accredidation or worst of all; selfishness. Lastly, For the liberals out there who seem to comprise the bulk of opposition. Let go of your anger, join hands with your fellow americans who really do want us all to be as free as Dr. king and Pres. Kennedy dreamed we should be. You should also read the article on fairtax .org called “why liberals should love the fairtax” reprinted from a Boston Globe article. God bless

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Casey at 3:07. You said:

“Also I don’t think it’s fair of you to criticize everyone who supports the FairTax by claiming they are just following others and can’t reason for themselves. This is a very petty argument and it has little to do with the issue at hand. Oh, unless you are a “mind reader” and you know how we all came to support the plan. :P”

Good. Now you are starting to see how I and other non-believers feel about the comments that have been posted by the believers. Baseless assumptions and accusations are on both sides, aren’t they?

Read the book. Give me a break. I learned how to read and I do read. I’m commenting, aren’t I? You and others just don’t like what I post.
So what.

By Christian

April 17, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

The current tax code of the US is a national embarrasement. It penalizes productivity, discourages savings and investment, and makes it easier for us to ship our jobs overseas than our products. The answer is the FairTax! The objections I’ve seen listed above share the same unfortunate misunderstandings of what the FairTax is. In brief: “23% vs 30%”. Apples and oranges. One is inclusive, one is exclusive. Guess what, the dollar amount is the same! “It doesn’t cut spending”. It’s a revenue collection bill, and a much more efficient one than what we have now. I agree spending needs to be cut, but don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater just because it doesn’t solve all of our country’s problems at once. Draft a spending reduction bill and I’ll support it in addition to the FairTax. “The president’s tax panel didn’t like it”. Um, actually, they didn’t didn’t look at the FairTax. They made up their own “national sales tax”, exempted a bunch of stuff, called it the FairTax, and then blasted it. Totally irresponsible. Americans for Fair Taxation has the complete rebuttal. “hurts the poor”. Actually, every family regardless of income will not pay any taxes up to the poverty level of spending. There is a monthly consumption allowance (the prebate)that pays you back for the amount of taxes you will spend on necessities. The poor are currently hurt by the regressive Payroll tax, which the FairTax does away with. On and on I could go. I have yet to see one factual rebuttal to the FairTax. Please please do your homework by reading the actual bill and the economic research behind it. Don’t listen to pundits who have a personal stake in the system as is. FairTax Now!!!!!

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

Blah blah blah. Same old song-and-dance. “Go do your homework”. “They changed it. That’s not the FairTax”. Those lines are so worn out. Come on. Throw some more insults at me while you’re at it. I don’t support this so-called fair tax. It is not a fair tax. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Get your elected representatives to cut spending then come back and let’s talk about a fair tax. Go On. Just Do It. What are you waiting for? Send that e-mail now. Call your representative now. Don’t waste another minute. I’ve already e-mailed my elected officials and told them that I do not support this so-called fair tax. If Linder were my representative, I would also be voting against him in every election for daring to present this scheme without properly defending it. He should fully defend it against all critiques or withdraw it. His actions are disgraceful.

By Erv

April 17, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Bruce Bartlett, though an economist on supply-side economics, evidently doesn’t recall from his studies how adversely the income tax affects the supplier’s productive abilities; thus, Bruce is a failure as a writer because he fails to inform his readers how the FairTax eliminates taxation on producers barely mentions the rebate, which provides progressivity to the bill. To the hourly wage earner, you too are a producer because your wages are tied to how well you produce on a production line.

People do not have to spend many hours studying the bountiful FairTax information at www.fairtax.org before understanding the benefits from this legislation are far better than Mr. Bartlett would lead you to believe. Give us the benefit of having at least an average intelligence Bruce. Many of us have already worked through our life’s productive years, but we still remember the financial torture we suffered under the current income tax code.

Since retiring, I’ve spent many hours studying the history of the income tax. How many of you know the 16th Amendment to our Constitution provided for a “progressive, graduated income tax? But, did you know this is the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto? The 3rd plank of the Communist Manifesto is an aggressive property tax. Aren’t we now using this plank as a funding source for our government’s wasteful spending?

“My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism.” This is a quote supposedly made by Karl Marx, the most recognized of the two co-authors of the Communist Manifesto. His Manifesto worked, because Russia went broke during the Cold War; President Reagan baled them out by giving them $350 billion of our tax dollars and now Moscow has more billionaires than any major capital city in the world.

Mr. Bartlett, what is your reason for making misleading statements about the quality of the FairTax? Is it because several other economists were invited to build the FairTax outside of the halls of Congress and you weren’t invited to the party? You must be hiding something from your readers! Whatever your reason is, please continue because you have drawn more attention to the FairTax than the grassroots movement has been able to generate since the FairTax was introduced to Congress.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax, perhaps you misinterpreted what I wrote. I simply said you seem to spend your time disparaging fairTax supporters but don’t seem to mention specific problems with the FairTax. However, if you want to mention specific concerns with the FairTax I will be happy to address them as best I can.

I’m not sure how that belies my ignorance.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

Scooter,

Here’s what I posted to you and others before.

“krw, Scooter, et al,

Your comments belie your ignorance. So there. What will you say next, I wonder. Come on. Keep throwing out your thought-provoking comments and I’ll throw something of equal or greater value right back. You and your following simply refuse to accept the fact that there are intelligent, well-educated people, including myself, that do not buy the song-and-dance routine you offer. Our own government did not buy it so you and your groupies just dismiss them instead of taking their work and properly addressing their concerns. Other reputable people have challenged this so-called fair tax and again you dismiss their concerns instead of actually addressing them. The same thing with Linder and Boortz. You don’t have to address my specific issues. Just address those issues that are already out there first and then we can go from there. I await hearing from our government that their study has been properly addressed by the supporters of the so-called fair tax.”

Then, you come back with your 4:22 post. Why do you pester me? Just read what I posted and deal with the issues I presented. I even went to the trouble of re-posting so you would not have to go back and find it. Isn’t that easy.

Now, as far as the “belies my ignorance” portion, I just cut and paste from other posts and responded to them. What is wrong with that? Those who are disparaged by my comments can certainly respond in any way that makes them feel less disparaged — or not. I may or may not respond.

By Janice

April 17, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Bruce, shame on you for your foolishness. Either you are incapable of a basic grasp of the Fair Tax or you are putting on an act. Either way you make yourself look very ignorant with these uninformed statements. Why would anybody promote a tax that does what you say. So….

BRUCE: READ THE BOOK. HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE AUTHORS. Then, try to defend your foolish statements. Or…. even though I am not a former government “expert” like you, you can write me anytime and I will explain the Fair Tax to you. It is pretty simple if you read the book.

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read one negative thing about the FairTax on this blog that was anything but the writers opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but we all know what opinions are like! We have a very small window to keep this country as a world economic leader. Everyday more and more people legal and illegal are learning they can vote themselves benefits from the Federal Government. Not just corporations but various blocks of people. Without passage of the FairTax we will soon be just another failed socialistic nation, far from the Republic we are. For those who think otherwise we are not and never were a democracy. I venture to say that not one of the Founding Fathers would be against the FairTax. They sure raised aloud vocal opposition to a tax on income.

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read one negative thing about the FairTax on this blog that was anything but the writers opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but we all know what opinions are like! We have a very small window to keep this country as a world economic leader. Everyday more and more people legal and illegal are learning they can vote themselves benefits from the Federal Government. Not just corporations but various blocks of people. Without passage of the FairTax we will soon be just another failed socialistic nation, far from the Republic we are. For those who think otherwise we are not and never were a democracy. I venture to say that not one of the Founding Fathers would be against the FairTax. They sure raised aloud vocal opposition to a tax on income.

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

I haven’t read one negative thing about the FairTax on this blog that was anything but the writers opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but we all know what opinions are like! We have a very small window to keep this country as a world economic leader. Everyday more and more people legal and illegal are learning they can vote themselves benefits from the Federal Government. Not just corporations but various blocks of people. Without passage of the FairTax we will soon be just another failed socialistic nation, far from the Republic we are. For those who think otherwise we are not and never were a democracy. I venture to say that not one of the Founding Fathers would be against the FairTax. They sure raised aloud vocal opposition to a tax on income.

By Frank

April 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

Scooter, Don’t worry, your ignorance has not been belied. Please see that ‘Fairly odd tax’ is quite angry inside and is trying to turn this into a religeous issue by using terms like ‘believer’and ‘non believer’. Like Pharoh his or her heart is very hardened. He’s fancied himself a rebel but is without a cause, so he doesn’t want anyone else to feel good about helping others or accomplishing anything. Only God can bring him back to the family of man and the love of freedom. But sadly, I feel that ‘Fairly odd tax’ hates Him. I pray I’m wrong.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Perhaps I am missing it, but no matter how many times you repost it I don’t see many specific problems with the FairTax. Just that you don’t buy into it without telling us why YOU don’t.

You say our own government refutes the FairTax and that is to be expected. The current tax system allows politicians to hide tax favors in it and that makes them powerful and the citizens weak, so why would they support it?

Which concerns “out there” are typing about? Am I supposed to go out find concerns for you? Since you type about how you are intelligent I figure you have looked into the proposal, given it serious consideration vs. the current system, and can therefore present some cogent concerns for us to discuss.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

Frank, I believe what you type but have hope for all people, no matter how they form their current purpose, or lack there of.

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

Scotter, The Americans for FairTaxtion requested permission to present the FairTax to them for consideration. PERMISSION DENIED!!! Yet your waiting to hear from our government that their study has been properly addressed by the supporters of the so-called fairtax. My friend your going to have a long long wait, and a huge waste of time. Government (WE THE PEOPLE) want the FairTax. The socialists and politicians do not.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

Frank,

Please feel free to express yourself as well. I don’t begrudge you or hate you for your beliefs. I have my beliefs and you have yours. You can call your belief in this so-called fair tax a religion if you want. If you have something that makes you feel good, then go for it as long as it is legal. I’ll do the same. You don’t mind, do you. I do take issue with your claims that I hate anyone. You are an evil person to make such an accusation.

By Thomas A. Martin

April 17, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

I would love to see the fair tax bill passed so I could feel like I have a future. I don’t feel secure right now because both democrats running for the presidency wants to raise our taxes even more. They want to do away with the Bush tax cuts also so they can have more money to support all the give away programs. These are unfair to those who works all there lives to have money taken out of there pay checks to support people to damn lazy to get off there lazy asses and work for a living, that is not how you take care of the problems. Giving illegals our tax dollars to support them is a crime as far as I’m concerned, hello they broke our laws, but you don’t give a rats a* as long as you get there illegal votes. Want to make the economy grow, pass the fair tax bill and you’ll have more money to support your give away programs. I cannot believe there are so many people in power that only care about themselves, and to hell with the people who put them into office. I’m all for term limits to rid DC of tax wasting buddy buddy systems up there who has done nothing to help us but to steal us blind. May God have mercy on your soul if you let us down by trying to lie about this fair tax bill to idiots whom should not be allowed to vote in the first place. When I have leukemia myself and work everyday and see people staying home and getting paid to do it I get damn steamed knowing some of my tax dollars is going to support the pieces of human waste. Yes I a mad citizen because this is not the America I once knew where family values meant something, now the Government want to control every thing we do, for God sakes wake up and and do the right thing for once in your life, look out for the people who made you rich. God bless American worker, whom the Government screws over every single pay day. I would love to be able to retire but I cannot because I’m a slave to this rotten tax system we have now, I have to keep working to support all the bull crap failing programs the liberals love.

By Christian

April 17, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax, In your subtle claims of intellectual superiority, you have yet to offer an actual objection to the FairTax. There are many posts here, and I may have missed it if you did. So please “enlighten” me. Give me one legitimate unrebutted negative about the FairTax. I DARE you. Can’t do it can you? Put up or shut up. Saying the “FairTax isn’t good because I said so” is an argument a fifth grader would make. Prove your claim. Give us something to rebutt other than your opinion! Without a dialogue with objectors, this whole discussion goes nowhere! I’m calling you out. DEBATE!

By Lisa

April 17, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

No one will pay taxes on neccesities because of the prebate. The prebate will go to every household —except to people who are here illegally — so the FairTax does not punish the poor and reward the wealthy.

By RobK

April 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

james, tkrop, et al:

Please, read my comment on the FairTax from April 15 @ 3:38PM. I haven’t seen any rebuttals yet about its effect on older workers and retirees (babyboom generation)who have already paid federal and state income tax on their savings. And Please all, be civil.

By J i T

April 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Short Answer: YES!

Long Answer: Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!

Emotional Answer: Hell, Yes!!!

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Scooter,

I’m not going to hold your hand and lead you.

Now, back to the topic that was presented:

By ajc | Monday, April 14, 2008, 04:55 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

U.S. Rep. John Linder of Georgia explains why he has sponsored legislation to replace the income tax with a 23-cents on the dollar sales tax. “Americans would keep their entire paycheck and have the power to choose exactly when and how much they will pay in taxes,” writes Linder. “It has always been a belief of mine that all taxes should be voluntary.”

Linder said we would be given this power over taxes. I disagree with him. He is an absolute disgrace. He also says he believes all taxes should be voluntary. Well, I should take him up on that one. I volunteer to not pay any taxes. How long do you think that will last regardless of the system used. You see, I don’t think it’s that easy to just walk away from the war in Iraq or to just quit building roads and bridges or to just quit paying Social Security. Linder needs to be held accountable for his words. I’m just answering the question that was asked in the beginning (that’s not a biblical reference, Frank).

By J i T

April 17, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Short Answer: YES!

Long Answer: Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!

Final Answer: Hell, Yes!!

By Christian

April 17, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax, PS. You called me out to support spending cuts, but if you actually read my post you will see where I said, “Draft a spending reduction bill and I’ll support it in addition to the FairTax.” Saying you don’t support the FairTax because it doesn’t itself lower spending is like an abortion opponent not supporting the FairTax because it doesn’t outlaw abortions. Totally flawed logic. Two different issues! Pick one issue and lets stick with it. I agree with you on spending cuts, so now lets talk the merits of the FairTax, of which there are many.

By Freedom & Liberty for ALL

April 17, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

The comments by Fair Tax dissenters are VERY amusing, although rarely followed by any substantive or factual information to base their disenting argument. It’s quite obvious that they either have a lack of mathmatical understanding, inability to calculate things in a fair and concise manner, OR the most probable conclusion is that they began their entire journey looking at the Fair Tax with a misguided and pre-formed idea in mind, therefore every number and word on a page appears wrong and skewed to them. It’s hard to imagine that some of the arguments in this listing of arguments even came from educated Adults. The theories of disention are so infantile and misinformed that it would seem that a teenage child or younger was at the keyboard typing them.
One perfect example was a post that said that they had never met a lower or middle income person who supported the Fair Tax. That is such an obviously wrong statement that it’s almost unbelievable that a reasonable person would type such a thing. His entire argument was that most people currently pay no where near the 23 / 30% Fair tax rate, elementary math proves very much otherwise. Most people even lower and middle class individuals pay a minimum 15% Income Tax, plus 10% payroll taxes (rounding numbers), without adding any of the additional taxes, etc. your already at 25% (inclusive; which is equivalent to the 23% Fair Tax figure), and most people pay more near 40% effective tax rate when everything is added up (even lower and middle class). The errors in the Fair Tax dissenters opinions in these postings are FAR too many to document in this post and really challenge a logical thinking persons choice to even attempt to correct or comment about them, but the fight for reasonably considering an alternative to a 68,000 page complete mess….must continue. There have been a few people, over the past few years who have brought up legitimate concerns and questions concerning the Fair Tax, these people have been very helpful in understanding things that may have been missed or mis-calculated, or simply mis-understood by some supporters. However, those reasonable and intelligent people do not seem to be posting here.

By Erv

April 17, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

Bruce Bartlett, though an economist on supply-side economics, evidently doesn’t recall from his studies how adversely the income tax affects the supplier’s productive abilities; thus, Bruce is a failure as a writer because he fails to inform his readers how the FairTax eliminates taxation on producers barely mentions the rebate, which provides progressivity to the bill. To the hourly wage earner, you too are a producer because your wages are tied to how well you produce on a production line.

People do not have to spend many hours studying the bountiful FairTax information at fairtax.org before understanding the benefits from this legislation are far better than Mr. Bartlett would lead you to believe. Give us the benefit of having at least an average intelligence Bruce. Many of us have already worked through our life’s productive years, but we still remember the financial torture we suffered under the current income tax code.

Since retiring, I’ve spent many hours studying the history of the income tax. How many of you know the 16th Amendment to our Constitution provided for a “progressive, graduated income tax? But, did you know this is the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto? The 3rd plank of the Communist Manifesto is an aggressive property tax. Aren’t we now using this plank as a funding source for our government’s wasteful spending?

“My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy Capitalism.” This is a quote supposedly made by Karl Marx, the most recognized of the two co-authors of the Communist Manifesto. His Manifesto worked, because Russia went broke during the Cold War; President Reagan baled them out by giving them $350 billion of our tax dollars and now Moscow has more billionaires than any major capital city in the world.

Mr. Bartlett, what is your reason for making misleading statements about the quality of the FairTax? Is it because several other economists were invited to build the FairTax outside of the halls of Congress and you weren’t invited to the party? You must be hiding something from your readers! Whatever your reason is, please continue because you have drawn more attention to the FairTax than the grassroots movement has been able to generate since the FairTax was introduced to Congress.

By Frank

April 17, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

To all, I thought it would take longer for someone to play the ” if it feels good do it ” card. But sadly, I was wrong. If you stop and think about it, this is what got us into this mess; It feels good to say “tax the rich” or ” let the government handle it” or ” unformally educated people can’t see and hear the truth” or “you have your truth and I have mine” or “lets smoke another one” It hurts to point out hate, politely disquised. It hurt to free ourselves from slavery, it hurt to gain independance from England’s taxation, it will hurt to get the fair-tax passed. I would never claim that a man is evil but he may do evil things. Tough love is honest, builds character and spreads. Free-love and pointless rebellion (think 60’s versions)spread STD’s, political correctness and pop culture slavery. Now get back to work we have another month to pay this year’s income tax before taking any profit from our efforts! Love you all.

By Scooter

April 17, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Fairly Odd Tax, OK?

Try not having an income and you won’t pay any taxes under the current system either. However, if nobody produces our economy fails. The same would happen if nobody consumes the goods and services produced.

Fact is people work to consume or save for future consumption. Work and consumption go hand in hand. We want Americans to work more, save more and consume less. But for some reason we tax work and savings when we could tax the consumption. If that’s not arse backwards I don’t know what is.

You know f**k it, you’re not saying anything for yourself, just instigating with the thoughts of others and I don’t have time to entertain that. Matter of fact, it really seems you are unwilling to promote your own thoughts or stand for anything. So have fun with that and the readers of this blog can decide for themselves.

One last thing, the book you say you are writing seems to discuss the tax shelters that are hidden within the current system. With the fairTax it would be really hard to hide such things and you wouldn’t need to investigate and write such books. But, do what you like and we will push on for economic liberty and a globally competitive economy.

By tkrop

April 17, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this

RobK, Let first say the FairTax will not create Utopia.

Your concerns are legimate but unfounded. My wife collects S.S.and is now paying tax on that same money for the third time. Most seniors are set with many things and are not making purhases of many big ticket items. If your familiar with the prebate they will be receiving that. Also many of them for a large porition their working lives paid no where near 7.65% of their paycheck in matching S.S. as we do today.

Of greater importance is preserving S.S.for those about to retire and those who are a long way off. A big part of the FairTax that is missed is it’s affect on social security. S.S. in essence is a form of insurance. Insurance by definition is a sharing of risk. To listen to the “EXPERTS” and pundits, cutting benefits for those receiving them, or raising taxes on workers are the only choices to save S.S. Currently contibutors to S.S. are only viewed as those receiving valid paychecks not the population as a whole. Simply put everyone who sets foot on U.S. soil will be paying into the S.S. fund regardless of how they got here or how they earn a living. If you want some GOVERNMENT statistics, the untaxed underground economy exceeds $1 trillion annually. 55 million tourists visit each year and spend better the $5,000.00 on average. The portion of the FairTax set aside for S.S. would NOT be raided as congress does today. All those posting here concerned about math should do the math on this.

I hope this helps.

By Christian

April 17, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

RobK, To answer your questions: First, the prebate is a standard amount given to every family unit based on size. There is no formula to fill out or records to keep up with. Go to the FAQ on the FairTax website for a current table of the prebate amounts. With that out of the way, lets address retirees. The current tax code taxes social security checks, places income limits on recipients, charges tax at current income tax rates on dispursed traditional IRA money, continues to charge the embedded taxes on every good or service purchased causing prices to be higher, is a danger to the future of social security due to the failing “ponzi scheme” nature of the Payroll tax, taxes your death and makes it more difficult to pass your hard earned resources on to your loved ones, etc, etc, etc. What a joke of a tax system! It’s already hurting seniors! Under the FairTax, all of the above is fixed. Sure, you’ll pay the tax when you choose to buy a NEW good, but you’ll also get the prebate to compensate you for a lot of that. And frankly, everyone currently has money in a bank account that was taxed already so the “problem” you described applies to everyone. And no, the FairTax doesn’t grant a retroactive tax cut to everyone for those taxes…but it does move us into the future in a much more efficient and economicly stable way with benefits that far outnumber the negatives. No tax system is perfect, but would you honestly rather keep what we have now? I honestly believe that most frugal seniors would be much better off after the FairTax. Oh, and a quick talk on IRAs. Folks with Roths retain the status quo, folks with traditional who didn’t pay taxes initially on the “earned” income get a rather nice windfall because they no long pay taxes on the dispursements! Even better? Under the FairTax, no more need for the alphabet soup of IRA, 401k, SEP, etc and all the rules and limits that go along with it. All invested capital is free to grow tax free until spent. That makes the future brighter for all future retirees. Not a complete answer, but hopefully gets your mind thinking. Cheers, Christian

By Donna Kirkwood

April 17, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this

I absolutely support SERIOUS TAX REFORM IN EITHER THE FAIR TAX OR FLAT TAX.

By Frank

April 17, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

Rob, I couldn’t resist staying and answering your question about retirees. They will benifit from not paying income tax on SS income, capitol gains from investments,and since they buy more used stuff they keep more of the pre-bate. They could ‘in theory’ trade home grown food goods through a co-op and pocket the whole pre-bate. Even if they become big spenders they won’t notice the difference due to lower pre-tax prices on everything. Remember, the key to the fair tax is that it spreads out the burden over at least 3 times the number of contributers most of which are not currently ‘even on the radar screen’; the rich, the illegals, the evaders, the offshore business’, the underground drug,porn,construction busineses. The middle and lower class see much needed relief. This is where most retirees reside.

By Donna Kirkwood

April 17, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

I support the Fair Tax or the Flat Tax. I believe we have to take back our power over our corrupt and greedy government, evening out the tax paying field, and do our best to stop the lobbyist from controlling those who are paid to represent the best interest of the people. After all, it is OUR MONEY and it is only being used to promote even more of what we now have, which is NOT WORKING FOR THE MAJORITY AND ONLY INCREASING OUR COUNTRY’S ENORMOUS DEBT WHILE DESTROYING THE AMERICAN DOLLAR.

By Frank

April 17, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this

O.k. it’s going to be a long night. Donna, The flat tax leaves the IRS, the 16th amenndment, lobbyist, and polititions the freedom to do what they are already doing to us. Without the repeal of the 16th amendment and the 67 thousand pages of tax code it ( flat tax) would only change the rate at which we get sc—wed by those who manipulate it to their advantage.

By RobA

April 17, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this

tkrop, Christian, Frank Et al:

I didn’t read anything in the FairTax code about the prebates applying to “old savings,” and how do you prove what is old or not, and how do you prevent people claiming old savings when they are not? That system would be so ripe for fraud as well. Think too that if your savings are in cash (CDs, Roth IRas, the principal in stocks, bonds, etc)it doesn’t enter in your income,only the interest, and as such your income is not high enough to trigger a tax on your SS. If you cash $100,000 or more of your cash savings in one year, now you don’t have to pay a penny on the principal, just on the interest. If you keep it under your mattress, you don’t pay a penny at all. With the FairTax, I’d have to pay upwards of 23%. And how do I prove that I kept my savings under my mattress?

And even regardless of how much I may save with the “new” FairTax, I’m still at a disadvantage compared with the 18-year-old that is just starting to work and has no savings. He’d be the true beneficiary.

By Fairly Odd Tax

April 17, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Good for you Scooter. You just could not let it go at something civil, could you. Go ahead. Take your cheap shots. It’s so typical. Didn’t you bother reading my earlier post?

Frank. Poor little Frank cannot handle rejection so he starts talking about anything other than the fact that I am entitled to my opinion too. Frank, get a life.

Any others out there that just cannot handle the fact that everyone does not agree with you? Of course there are. Well, go ahead and throw your insults at me instead of looking at the original topic and addressing it without insulting someone.

Well, some of you may be thinking that I started all of the insults so I’m getting what I deserve. I don’t think so. Go back to the second post from Phil. That was my post. Then read the following one from rascal — the one that throws out the insults. Reel in your own before you start with the accusations, folks.

Now, if you are still reading, go back to my 5:38 post and read my comments on what Linder said. If you don’t like it, take it up with him.

What I do want is for this issue to get elevated to a real nationwide topic. I want economists and politicians and taxpayers talking about this every single day right along with talks about government spending. So come on out of the wood work and out of the closets. Take your best shots. While you are at it, write, phone or e-mail someone about this issue — preferably an elected official. DO IT. NOW, DUMMY! While you’re still angry. Are you doing it?

By Steve Rosen

April 17, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

There are two critical problems with the fair tax discussions, as I understand it:

The first is that the 23% rate postulated covers current revenues, and thus locks in an intolerable deficit. Since an income tax height of some sort would be necessary to balance the budget, the replacement ‘fair’ tax rate would also have to rise to balance the budget.

The second distortion is that the 23% is a distortion of the common reading of the proposal. While the authors of the fair tax SAY the rate is 23%, they have proposed that a $.30 tax be imposed on a $1.00 purchase because (.30/1.30 is 23%). While is is true that this is similar to the way we think of income tax rates, it distorts the public perception of sales tax rates. Most of us would call this a 30% sales tax. Added to the typical state sales tax of around 7%, the sales tax would be 37% to reach the current revenue, and more than 50% to balance the budget.

Doesn’t sound so good to have house prices go up by 50%, and the price of nearly everything else go up by that much, does it?

By Yt Knight

April 17, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this

Steve Rosen.

On your point #1, are you suggesting that rather than have massive tax reform and go with the FairTax (for all of the positive reasons that people mention already) that we simply raise current income taxes and further break the backs of tax payers at the expense of tax avoiders?

On your point number two… take a dollar out of your pocket and hold it it. How much did you have to earn in order to hold that dollar? If you are a wage-earning American that is in the 20% tax federal tax bracket AND you pay payroll taxes (FICA + Medicare = 7.65%) you had to earn at least $1.38 (.275 in income tax and .105 in payroll tax). Using your math, you’re already paying an exclusive tax on that dollar of 38 cents (or an inclusive tax of 24 cents) just to hold that dollar prior to even buying anything.

Then go to buy something… say the same product or service you employer makes/provides… Your employer had to match that .105 and price it into the goods/services offering. So under the current system you are getting hit on both the income AND the consumption side.

Sounds a LOT better to me to get hit once and for me to be in control of when I take the hit. If I chose to earn/save/invest and climb the rungs of the ladder, I pay very little until “I decide” to consume and pay into the system. If I want to consume more as I go I am “free” to do that as well.

Cheers,

YK

By Yt Knight

April 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

Final point Steve Rosen…

I realize I didn’t address your state sales tax issue in my last post. The same effects would apply with State Sales Tax.

My guess is that states will follow suit and replace state income, corporate, and death tax revenues by extending the state sales tax to include service items and other FairTax provisions (prebates, etc.). In my state (California) we have both income and sales taxes with sales tax being about 7.5%. Going the FairTax way… the transition would still probably see the overall (federal and state) inclusive sales tax at under 30 cents on the dollar. Again, those at/near poverty pay little to no tax (or negative tax if very frugal) with the prebate provision. Those who are more affluent will pay more but they will be joined by all of the tax avoiders (who currently avoid California income tax as well).

I like the FairTax.

YK

By Clint in Carriere

April 17, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Did you know? That today a middle class worker in the 25% income tax bracket [& paying 7.5% to social security] wishing to work overtime to cover a $100 retail purchase has to earn $148 to clear that $100 that he needs? [do the math 100/67.5%]

That’s the equivalent of a 48% sales tax!!!!

Makes a 30% Fair Tax [with no Inc Tax or Soc Sec Tax] look pretty good doesn’t it?

Remember: $148 Under current system $130 Under the Fair Tax

By RobK

April 17, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

YT:

You said that with the FairTax you could save, invest, do whatever you chose until you’re ready to consume. Do you have any savings/investments? You’ve already paid federal and state income taxes on that money. You’ll pay again when you cash it to consume. No prebates can account for that fairly. There is no practical way to prove what is old savings and what is not. And in any system, as in “prebating” your Roth IRA or CDs when you cash them, somebody will find a way to cheat. We’re all fed up with the current income tax code and the IRS. But instead of jumping into what may be a system full of problems, why not lobby Congress to revamp the existing IRS tax code. What about doing away with all the loop holes and most deductions, even those such as mortgage interest, real-estate taxes, capital gains, etc. No more itemizing. To be fair, only deductions for dependents would stay. Everybody’s taxes would then go down, and it would be a simpler system. And in parting, what would prevent rich people from buying big items, such as a yacht, a plane, a $100K Jaguar outside our country?

By Dorothy Harper

April 17, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this

How would you like a prebate check every month to pay your minimum tax liability under the FairTax? My prebate (based on my income) would be $192.00, I would love to start off each month with a check in the mail. I hope they pass the FairTax act soon, Very Soon!!!!!

By Kevin

April 17, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

Taxation whithout representation was the cry of our forfathers. Taxation with worry of incarceration is our cry today. May taxation without governmental provocation(i.e. power of IRS, taking money from my paycheck, taking money from my reirement…) be the cheer of tomorrow! FAIRTAX NOW!!

By Freedom & Liberty for ALL

April 17, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this

RobK Sure, you could try to use that argument as a downside to the Fair Tax (that you will pay a Tax on investments you already paid a Tax on prior to the Fair Tax). The first thing you need to consider is that YOU ALREADY DO! Whatever you purchase now with the dollars you’ve supposedly already paid your Tax on, you are still Re-taxed by the inbedded costs of the current tax system that are built into everything you buy, and there are several other taxes that currently would hit your “already taxed” savings dollar somewhere down the line. However, under the Fair Tax there is no way that you can confidently say that every dollar you’ve saved (pre-FairTax) would be taxed again, unless you are absolutely sure you won’t buy anything Used. For all we know you could pull $300,000.00 out of your already taxed savings and purchase a Used Home…which will have NO Fair Tax. You will also receive the benefit of adding to your investments and Savings with Pre-Tax dollars which should give you and many others to add to their savings and investments at a much higher rate. And after all is said and done YOU get to decide when and how…or even if you pay and Federal Fair Tax. There are many other benefits to Savings and Investment under the Fair Tax…but if your out to find a perfect plan that will have absolutely no downsides at all…that will never happen.

By Frank

April 18, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this

These made up names make me feel like this discussion is also. But I digress. To RobK, Please try to get past the idea of old vs new savings and whether you get as better deal than a younger person. Jealosy can get ugly. Under the fairtax it won’t matter anyway since the net cost of goods wil stay about the same. For example look at goods that are high tech in nature and you’ll see dramatic downward trends in net costs everytime technology makes them cheaper to produce. No company gets away with keeping the difference. Many fairtax detractors use the self contradicting logic that making things cheaper to produce only line the pockets of a few. That actually only happens in socialistic or dictator run systems. The other obsession I am hearing is how people will cheat the system. Fair enough, no system is perfect. But honestly, with 90% fewer entities to track and a system (fairtax)that is harder to evade than our current one ( simply don’t file or work for cash) isn’t this like not accepting a pill that cures your cancer because it may not work on every single person ever given too.

By Frank

April 18, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this

To those of you with open minds, asking questions ,listening for the truth. Read the books, ask questions, search the website, notice the credentials of the supporters and documentation of the expert testimony behind them and lastly see if their motivation is to gain power or to give it up to we the people. Then read and listen to the detractors and try to find a single unrebutted claim, do the research, question statements made by them as being inarguable facts just because they say so. And last but not least, notice if they are individuals speaking with sarcasm, anger and out of fear of losing something. This should dramatically contrast with the few politicians promoting this plan who will be willingly giving up power and control after it’s passage.

By Yt Knight

April 18, 2008 1:22 AM | Link to this

RobK, I hope from the arguments above that you are more comfortable with taking post-tax savings forward into a FairTax future. To reiterate, there shold be little to no change. Ultimately, when our politicians have their honeypot of temptation that is our current tax system taken away we can go after other meaningful cost-cutting reform.

But even if you aren’t quite convinced as an elder American… what about generations going forward? I’m in my mid-forties. The 16th Amendment didn’t pass on my watch. I seriously doubt that it passed on your watch unless you were an adult in 1913. Why didn’t anybody do anything about this in the last 96 years? Are we going to ask this same question 10 or 20 or 50 years down the line?

At some point something has to give. Either our nation continues to deteriorate with the exodus of jobs, capital, and opportunity along with the burden of entitlements that breaks the back of tax payers or we will do something about it.

Passing the FairTax is doing something about it.

Reversing the trends and inviting capital, jobs, opportunity back to our nation will bring prosperity back and help eliminate the need for unnecessary entitlements (because of full employment and great prosperity).

Now is the time. Now is our time to fix this. I hope and pray that it happens not only for our sake but for the sake of my 2 year old son and and 5 month old daughter and for all generations going forward.

Peace,

YK

By Chris

April 18, 2008 3:35 AM | Link to this

How can a change to the tax code that hits everyone, whether here as a tourist, student visa, ILLEGALLY, or rich not benefit the country. And no I am not of the wealthy crowd, my wife and I are both retired from the military with 23 and 20 years served respectively who are now working on our second careers. I prefer to buy new, so yes I will get hit a little harder than the person that prefers second hand items. That is a price I am willing to pay and would really appreciate in having a say in.

By phil

April 18, 2008 6:30 AM | Link to this

Rob,

I have asked some of the same tough questions that you ask and I get the same — a run around. Why? Because they don’t have a feel-good answer for you that you will fall for and they refuse to just tell you the truth about it. Stick with those tough questions and call them out. Write your elected officials and demand that this issue be dealt with so we can put this behind us once and for all.

Good Luck.

By phil

April 18, 2008 6:45 AM | Link to this

After you have read what Frank has to say, do the one simple thing that a truly open-minded person would do. Question what you read. You see, what Frank does not tell you is the other side of the story. There are smart, well-educated, non-angry people that disagree with this so-called fair tax. Frank, frankly refuses to accept that simple fact. For some reason, he thinks that the world must believe him and him only. It has not been that long ago since some accused others of witchcraft, some thought the earth was flat instead of round, etc. So, read about both sides of any issue before you make up your mind and don’t forget to look at those credentials. By the way, write your elected officials and tell them that your want this issue addressed along with the issue of government spending in general. Let’s get these issue in the public eye now — before the next election. Don’t wait. Time’s a wasting. Don’t you agree, Frank? Just say yes, Frank. Surely you want both sides of any issue to be fully aired before any decision is made. Do you disagree with that, Frank?

By Klaus Todte

April 18, 2008 7:47 AM | Link to this

Nobody has the intention to beome corrupt. Over the time it just grows on everybody one way or another. VALUES and FAIRNESS is positive for the common good, so are our Constituional Rights. But interest and greed, money power and organized crime is as old as apple pie. Knowing that we cannot have the pie and eat it too, we call everything Democracy, knowing of course that we have nothing to say in our present systems. There is only one way left www.givemeliberty.org

By A Taxpayer

April 18, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

I have been reading some of these posts for and against this FairTax[SM] (or is that supposed to be TM, R, C, etc.). The question that was originally posed in the title was simply “Do We Need a FairTax[SM]?” Of course, I added the [SM] since this particular spelling and capitalization is protected. My first concern is why one would ask if this specific thing is needed? Why not ask instead if you think our current system of taxation is fair. You see, there is no longer a need to worry about the [SM] and the topic is generic instead of focusing on this particular proposal. After all, there have probably been hundreds of different approaches to taxation developed over the years. Why not give all of them equal billing? The question itself is too slanted toward what appears to be an attempt to promote only one approach. That’s not very fair. Anyway, that’s my initial response to your question, “What say you?”

P.S. I was also curious about the total number of posts to this question compared to other questions on this blog. So, I did a little more research and what do you know, there was a link from fairtax.org. I did not check to see how many other sites are providing a link. I think that helps to explain at least some of the posts in favor of FairTax[SM] though.

By Larry Atkinson

April 18, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

Just imagine how wonderful it will be to wake up one morning and fine the IRS gone. The 16th Amendment must be repealed, Congress should have no right to tax INCOME without regard to census or numerataion. A national retail sales tax is FAIR to the 300 million consumers in America, they will all be taxed the same. The unfair tax system we have now is 67000 pages long and is so corupt that it changes evertime we have an election, how may votes can I buy by a promise of a tax cut or tax credit. I say no more. FAIR TAX is the best solution that I’ve seen. Our current tax system is about to explode to cover all the retireing baby boomers, when they don’t earn and income they wont be taxed and the working Americans will have to be taxed more to cover the loss. Don’t tax income, tax spending.

By MarcB

April 18, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

Bobby for one thing Sean Hannity is a huge supporter of the Fair Tax and has pushed it several times on his show.

By JR

April 18, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

Well, I’ve spent some time today reading the various comments. Some love the FairTax and some hate it. I am one of those who loves it. I am a contractor working in Iraq, for the last four and a half years. Yes, I get a tax break on the first 80k I make, but the remaining I make is taxed at the rate as if I were in the states. Example, If I make 100k, I am taxed at the rate for 100k on the balance between 80k and 100k. Makes me sick. Also, I only come home every four to six months, I currently do not own a house or property, vehicles, etc. When I’m home I rent a vehicle and stay at a hotel and eat at resturaunts. Someone needs to convince me WHY I need to pay taxes for services that I do not get for being in the country. I enjoy not paying taxes or social security (I got my forty quarters in years ago). The FairTax is the fair way to go. Once income taxes are eliminated prices of products will go down because manufacturers (corporate) will not have to pay income taxes and will remove that part of the cost from their products. Then tack on the 23% or whatever is figured to be the correct amount, and the prices will stay the same. Doesn’t take a math wizz to figure out that math. Now, if you do not wish to spend money on the book, then check the website out for free. Also, you can use Google for free and find more research on the whole subject.

One last thought. I read an article on CNN’s website by Martin Roland. He said that because of the way things work today there will never be an “average” American in the White House. I take that as a challenge and will work to see someone who doesn’t have a law degree, not from a wealthy family or political family get into the presidency. If we can get someone who, like us, is average, then we can get more done that will benefit the country and not a few hundred politicians. Our votes count as long as we use them right.

Ok, I’m done now. Someone else can chime in.

By MarcB

April 18, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

Galiberal you have not one inkling of how the fair tax works. Through that nice long comment of yours you have done nothing but show your ignorance of the way the fair tax works. When the fair tax is enacted the only tax that will be paid will be at the time of consumption. You state that it will be paid all through the process of making the product. That is called a VAT. Get you tax info right then come back and post a comment.

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this

All you silly people complaining about not being able to collect the sales taxes from everyone. That is simply absurd. With the fair tax, every business will charge the correct tax because they can all be required to be connected to state (or federal) computer networks in order to log all sales. There will be state or federal databases that log all inventory to allow for full auditing at any time. It can be a simple extension of the system currently used for the lottery. Every single transaction will have to be recorded. Otherwise, periodic audits of inventory will pick it up. Besides, if sales tax collections fall below what is needed to fund the government, then the monthly prebate checks can be temporarily lowered to make up for any shortfall. Then when sales tax collections increase, the prebate checks can increase back up to as much as the the government mandated poverty level. Even the poverty level can be re-adjusted as needed to make sure the government has enough funding at all times. Further, cash can be completely eliminated or outlawed as an acceptable for of currency and overyone will be assigned a special ID that they will have to use for all purchases. It will work. These are the things that the opponents of the FairTax just refuse to tell you. I don’t know why.

By Copyleft

April 18, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

The comments from the UnfairTax supporters have been quite enlightening. The universal attitude that “If you disagree, you’re evil or stupid” is telling. It invites comparisons to a cult or similar legion of brainwashed drones (such as the talk-radio audience, for example).

THIS is why you’re not getting anywhere, folks. Your lockstep conformity, your disproportionate hostility to any dissent or questions, your seething HATRED of anyone who dares to disagree. This is what makes you a cult.

And this is why I don’t worry about the UnfairTax actually getting implemented.

By MarcBeABut

April 18, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Well, Galiberal. That’ll teach you to open your mouth (via the keyboard). MarcB sure put you in your place. Thanks MarcB for telling us about Galiberal. Wow. I sure feel better. I feel like consuming something.

By JR

April 18, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this

TO: By Fix It With FairTax RE: Further, cash can be completely eliminated or outlawed as an acceptable for of currency and overyone will be assigned a special ID that they will have to use for all purchases.

Friend, don’t go there. That’s a bad place to go….

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

I’m sorry you feel that way JR. As a supporter of the FairTax and as a person who desperately wants to see this plan work, it is time to take any reasonable steps to relieve the fears of people opposed to the FairTax. This issue is a major sticking point. We absolutely must make sure that everyone is in compliance and is paying their FairTax. Eliminating currency and linking to state and federal databases as I described will fix these concerns once and for all. FairTax supporters, please support me in this and send this idea on to your elected officials. Together we CAN get FairTax implemented. Please.

Thank You.

By JR

April 18, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this

I agree with you, but the ID number thing is touchy if you know what I mean. I push the Fair Tax to a lot of people I work with and help as much as possible when I can.

Oh, yeah, we need to be back on a gold standard, too. would be more beneficial to the economy as a whole.

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

The ID part is the simplest. We just use the Social Security number. The database is already there. It will work. Tourists cna get a comparable number or just use their passport. We just have to make sure that all tourist transactions get recorded in the databases as well. Otherwise, it will mess up the inventory process that will be needed to ensure compliance. How could anyone say that it won’t work. I think it will work. It will even be possible to do cross checks like accountants do with their spreadsheets. You can check purchases under a given social security number and compare it to sales to that number. Most of the sales will likely be local so the comparison should be within some acceptable error range or else it can trigger a personal audit in order to catch the crooks. I think we just need to get our elected officials thinking about how to implement the details. Let’s keep the discussion going and get more people involved. You can be a part of the problem or a part of the solution. Could someone help post these ideas at other blogs. Please. I’m no that good with the Internet yet.

Thank You.

By Yt Knight

April 18, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

I have been in software development for 20 years. Software that is 5 - 10 years old is often-times completely scrapped and re-written. Newly rewritten software leverages advances that make it more scalable, supportable, and maintainable so that users are more productive and the company can be more agile and more competitive. I view our existing tax code the same as old/outdated software code.

Our current tax code:

The FairTax code: 1. Is a streamlined 133 pages 2. Grants us back our inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as our founding fathers initially envisioned. 3. Removes temptations from politicians to alter the free markets through complex tax legislation. 4. Enables U.S. businesses to be more agile and competitive. 5. Invites capital, jobs, and prosperity back home to our lands. 6. Invites tax avoiders to help fund our government 7. Invites tax lobbyists, CPAs, and tax attorneys to put their fine minds into more meaningful/productive careers. 8. Deals soundly with Social Security and Medicare. 9. Unleashes our economy for generations to come. 10. Is much fairer than anything else presented. Etc., Etc., Etc.

It is time to completely scrap unsupportable/unmaintainable tax code in favor of the FairTax.

Now is the time folks.

YK

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Yt Knight,

Very good analogy. There are many people out there that strongly feel that the FairTax simply cannot work unless we can ensure them that tax evasion can be virtually eliminated. Therefore, we absolutely must implement 1) an ID system to identify all taxpayers and their purchases, and 2)a non-currency system to prevent the un-recorded transactions from ever occurring. As a software programmer, you probably know better than I that such a thing must be possible and that it will put this issue of tax evasion behind us for good. Please help me spread the word.

Thank You.

By Erv

April 18, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

By Yt Knight

April 18, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Fix It With FairTax

Sure, what you propose is possible but it may be overkill right now. What you are trying to prevent exists currently with our present tax code. Talk to the Bankruptcy Attorney that will accept cash for his fee (which avoids taxation). But do you really think that Sears, Walmart, your grocery stores, clothing outlets, medical professionals, etc. are going to risk their business licenses to avoid taxes? Currently you have folks here avoiding federal taxes by not filing period. Seems to me that this would be impossible to come even close to full avoidance with the FairTax by those who are fully avoiding now. Also, when the tax burden is spread to all within our borders… the overwhelming majority will be fine with it - especially when our newly won freedom takes root.

I would hold off on trying to track everything as you suggest.

Cheers,

YK

By Clint in Carriere

April 18, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Question.

If the 300 page [pay when you spend] Fair Tax had been enacted 95 years ago instead of the income tax, how many of you would today be arguing to replace it with the current [forfeit a portion of your pay before you see it] 65,000 page income tax code we live under today?

By Taxed Out

April 18, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

The more I work, the more I get taxed. That’s what the current system does - punishes productivity. What kind of sense does that make?! People, get educated. The current tax code is more than 67,000 pages long. The FairTax code is around 130 pages. It won’t take long to read. The FairTax is the only system that rewards productivity and UNtaxes the poor. Try actually reading it, instead of reacting out of ignorance. You might be surprised to find yourself actually supporting it.

By Erv

April 18, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Come on folks, if you have read about the FairTax, you are not using your memories of the FairTax research while building this legislation when you think I.D. numbers are going to be necessary. Remember, we as taxpayers will no long have to file a tax return and disclose our personal financial data. The FairTax will be paid and collected at the retailer’s cash register. The reason we will no longer have to file a tax return. The amount of FairTax paid on our purchases will be recorded on our cash register receipts; thus, showing us the exact amount paid for the FairTax on every purchase we make. On the retailer’s copy, of these same receipts, the retailer knows how much FairTax he has to report and forward to the designated state agency. The state agency will then forward the FairTax collections from all retailers under their jurisdiction to the US Treasury.
There will be absolutely no need for a customer to have an I.D. number. The retailer does not care whether his customer is an illegal, a tourist, or a citizen. All states who currently have a sales tax do a better job of auditing their retailers than the IRS can possibly do with millions of tax returns to audit. If my memory isn’t failing me, the economists, who designed the FairTax, estimated non-compliance losses will reduce some 90-95% after the enactment of the FairTax. WE GET TO ENJOY APRIL 15TH FOREVER INSTEAD OF DOING TAX RETURNS.

By Pearlene Barbee

April 18, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

I work very hard for my wages and I have no problem with helping others in need, but when my check is taxed to the point that I can no longer pay my bills and have to work overtime just to afford the taxes that come out of my check so that I can pay my bills then I have a real problem. I work in a service that I see people more capable than I am to work, sitting home enjoying the check they have coming in the mail every month that we as tax payers have provided for them. If they were contributing to the cause I would not have a problem at all. I think this is a great idea. We should go back to the way that it was intended. Lets tear down the iron curtain, this is AMERICA.

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Yt Knight,

I hear you and I agree that there are people willing to work the system and force the rest of us to have to pick up their slack. One big issue that I keep hearing over and over is how the FairTax will create this underground economy and this objection to the FairTax must be stopped if we are to succeed. The purpose of my proposal is to get everyone to carry their own weight. I don’t understand how any honest person could possibly object. We already have Social Security numbers and the databases are already there. With the Internet and what has already been done with the Lottery system and things like Paypal and debit cards, it will be easy to take the next step and eliminate currency and let everyone use their Social Security ID for all purchases. Just imagine not needing the cost of mailing out checks or even direct deposit. The fed and state governments could maintain our prebate accounts and debit them via WalMart or whoever when we make our purchases. There will be no way for people to cheat us any more. I really think this will work. Tell me where the flaws are in my logic. Please. Please pass on my ideas to others and let’s keep up the fine discussion.

Thank You

By Fix It With FairTax

April 18, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

Erv,

I sorry to have to disagree with you but your notion that we can get the FairTax implemented without an ID system strikes me as strange given all the people that keep bringing up the issue of underground economies and tax evasion. One of the underlying principles behind the FairTax is that we will be bringing into the fold those that currently are cheating us. They simply cannot cheat us with an underground economy if there is no acceptable currency available and they are forced to use their ID. Also, in order to legally collect Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid or even use the emergency rooms, we simply must have an ID system and a central database to track all transactions. It simply will not prevent the cheating otherwise and I want this system to work for all of our sakes and for my children’s sake. Isn’t that what we are working toward here? Please help me get this idea out for more discussion. I believe it will solve the most serious issues left that are holding back others from supporting the FairTax.

Thank you for your time and patience with me. Please pass my comments on to others to think about.