AJC.com > Opinion > Opinion Talk > Archives > 2007 > March > 26 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USBiblical ignorance
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
In August, Georgia public school systems will start offering two courses about the Bible, as mandated by the Georgia General Assembly in 2006. Stuart Bennett, Chief Deputy Superintendent of Schools for the Georgia Department of Education, writes that that the elective courses will not be “‘Bible study’ that one might take at church”. Also, “teachers cannot promote their religious beliefs,” writes Bennett. Meanwhile, Stephen Prothero, who chairs the department of religion at Boston University, writes that the Bible is “revered more than it is read and read more than it is remembered.” Only one-third of Americans know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount, Prothero writes, and 10 percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife.
Do we need to teach the Bible in public school? If so why? And how?
Comments
By V for Vendetta
March 26, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
The question is why? What is the point? If kids have access to this type of information in church, what is the point of offering it as a class in school?
This only points to wear bible-thumping georgians heads are at. Instead of worrying themselves over practical ways of improving Georgia’s terrible education rankings, they are more concerned with figuring out how to get religion into schools. Religion is faith, religion is belief, but most of all religion is OPINION. People all over the world have different religious faiths, opinions, and beliefs, but that is all they are.
Even if the classes are taught as they are in church, they will be taught with an air of truth and fact behind them that will find itself in direct conflict with other (real) facts that the kids are learning in their other (factual) courses. If I believe the Earth is flat that’s fine. I’m allowed to have that belief. But I should never be allowed to teach that belief in school next to a science classroom.
Is it really that hard to understand? Is it really that shocking we are so far behind the rest of the nation? Behind the rest of the world? In my opinion these types of discussions are moronic and only prove our narrow-minded stupidity down here in the South. I’m a Southerner by birth and I have to say that sometimes it embarrasses me.
But what should I expect from a State with more churches than schools?
By mark
March 26, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this
Good for them putting the bible back in school where it belongs. Now if we can just get biology, science and history out of the school, we’ll be well on our way to creating the state-sponsored theocracy we need to keep our children safe and away from drugs, gay marraige, premarital sex and inter-racial dating. (We should probably get math out of the schools, too… it was those Godless Muslims that came up with algebra). Back to the good ol’ days for Georgia… and God forbid our parents should have to take time from their tennis matches, shopping, SUV-driving, golf games and cheating on their spouses with secretaries, neighbors and pool boys to spend time teaching their own kids about the bible. Yep… us Republicans… we’re all for big government and making sure the government does stuff for us. Yee Haw. And if you don’t believe in the bible… to bad for you… you’ll get your comupance when you’re buring in eternal heck-fire (I don’t use bad words).
By Political Mongrel
March 26, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this
In college, I took classes on the Old Testament that were taught from a literary and historical perspective. There was no indoctrination, no proselyting. I learned about how the OT was written, what its influences and historical tie-ins were, why there are contradictions in various areas, and how the OT relates to other religious works from the middle east. There was a lot of separating truth from fiction and corrections of common misperceptions about it. I’m better for having had the course.
That said, it would be very difficult to find a teacher of Dr. Gonzalez’s remarkable scholarship, and would be very difficult to induce someone like him to teach in high school. In this case, the subject matter and teacher will be of equal importance.
And what will be done to insulate the teacher from the barrage of criticism, angry parents, and pressure from locals and administrators when the teacher begins to teach ideas that contradict their faith. No matter what is taught, it’s going to happen. There are many things in a literary and historical perspective of the Bible that contradict things being taught in churches and in wide belief among certain groups. Disagreement in beliefs are why we have so many denominations now; how will the disagreements be handled in school?
By Observer
March 26, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this
Well we need to look at the two sides of this. V’s point about teaching relgion is valid in that (a) the state should not be teaching religion and (b) using resources to teach relgion is wasteful considering the current state of education.
The other side is that the Bible is actually a very influential piece of literature. A working knowledge is essential to any meaningful understanding of most of the world’s great works of literature because many of them contain important Biblical allusions (some serious, some satirical, some ambiguous). Even setting aside the Bible’s religious value, it has influenced many people (philosophers, writers, artists) over the years, and it’s influence must be understood in order to place historical work into perspective.
So I come out on this debate squarely on the side of teaching the Bible as literature. The two problems I see with this are that it may be difficult to implement because teachers are never infallible and that conservative Christians will be upset when they realize what a Bible as literature class actually looks like - heavy on theories such as multiple authorship of Genesis, non-standard Gospels, and heretical interpretations which influenced art (the equal power of God and Satan, for example is seen in many artistic works though is repudiated by the church). Likewise, it should be light on any message of salvation and most theological questions.
By JohnF
March 26, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this
As a non-christian agnostic I really don’t have a problem with schools teaching the bible from a historical point of view. There are hundreds of biblical references through out the great works of literature and art that I admit I am completely ignorant of, not the least of which were penned by the great Charles Schulz. However, to keep this class within the rule and spirit of the law will require a lot of oversight…there are a lot of religious teachers that I imagine or just chomping at the bit to teach this class and I’m sure it’s because they want to “witness” to the great truth of the text. When they get into the areas concerning the stewardship of one’s slaves, how will the teacher handle this with the black students that take the class?…it will be interesting if nothing else.
By Political Mongrel
March 26, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
There’s an excellent article on this topic at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1601845,00.html?xid=site-cnn-partner
By Monday
March 26, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this
I, being atheist, do not want religion taught in the schools. That’s what your church is for. I don’t want someone else’s beliefs rammed down my kids’ throat. All I can say, is thank goodness my kid will be out of Georgia schools in two years.
By Mel
March 26, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
Seeing that the Bible has such a large influence on society, isn’t it important that people have the opportunity to know the actual facts about it. Every religious leader can have their own spin on the books of the Bible, but a class would take the religion out of the Bible and show it as it truly is - a historical, an highly influential document.
It’s about time that a larger portion of the population understand the When, Why, and How the Bible was established.
By Patrick
March 26, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
Sure…we can teach the Bible in school. As long as the state school board (and County school boards) put disclaimer stickers in every Bible that will be handed out to students stating that “the event of the universe and Earth being created by God in six days is only a theory and should be view with an open mind.” The stickers should also state that “other events depicted in this text may or may not have happened, and any ideas, opinions, or views are the opinion of those who have expressed them, and not of the school system’s or anyone else dealing with the instruction of this text. All ideas, opinions, or views should be considered but not accepted as definite.”
By Ha
March 26, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this
As a non-Christian, I think Bible classes are fine as long as they are optional and taught without any religious bias. But that begs the question, does Georgia’s beleaguered school system have the capacity to find enough quality Bible teachers who won’t use this as an opportunity to indoctrinate their students? I doubt it.
By The Pope
March 26, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
The Bible is the greatest and most influential book ever written. Even if you deny it as the word of God you cannot deny its legacy and the truth it contains. What are you afraid of? You son and daughter may come home and ask why the Bible condemns your lifestyle. Most people are reluctant to read and study the Bible because it exposes their shortcomings and sins. The Bible is the owners manual for our lives given to us by the maker.
By GATransplant
March 26, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this
First, I have to ask if the United States, purportedly founded on religious freedom, is now selecting a national religion? If so, where and when was the vote? We are still a Democracy, right? There are many different religions and many diverse worshipers in this country, why aren’t Theological Texts for each religion represented? (The Koran, The Torah, etc…)
The Bible, like the other Theological Texts was assembled by those who looked at issues in one manner and discarded Texts that opposed their views at the time. Is that what we want to teach children. Discard what you don’t want to confront and open for discussion?
Even interpretations of the Bible suffered because of the cultural difference of the interpreters. Judas’ Text was omitted as were many others that clearly deviated from the “Plan” that religious leaders had for the populace.
Religion is at best an inner understanding of your relationship with a higher power and best when not misinterpreted by others. Following some Text as a guide to personal spirituality is a step in the wrong direction if you don’t have all of the information. We each know what is right and what is wrong and we don’t really need a book to tell us to be nice and considerate to one another, do we? If we followed “The Golden Rule” historically originating in such places as Buddhist teachings, B.C. African Education and likely every society in history, we would be better served and less likely to be questioned about “Bible Thumping”.
Many people misquote the Bible and use it to enforce a private agenda. The power of religion lay in the teaching of these skewed Texts. Remove the Texts and be free to worship as you please and learn about the many diverse religions so that you can better determine which one is correct for you. Have personal conversations with GOD, if you are a believer, as the Biblical book of Mathew teaches. School, is not the place for these teachings. The very topic is far too diverse to cover in a school system that is already suffering in the teaching of general studies.
By Stephanie
March 26, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this
I think if the bible is going to be taught so should all the other religions of the world. One of the best classes I took in college was a Religion class. It gave a general overview of all the major religions in the world and a few of the more obscure. We need to focus on making more well rounded and tolerant adults who can make up their own minds on topics like religion. By teaching kids about all religions they will have an understanding of what the differance is between Christians, Muslims, Jews, ect… They will learn that there isn’t much differance at all. The core values are the same in almost every religion.
By ron
March 26, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this
Anyone who does not have half his brain tied behind his back can see straight through this one.Get religion established in the schools.Once established,expand it.Wasting pupils time studying the Bible is a direct step backwards.
By Earl
March 26, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this
If we’re gonna do this, let’s at least do it right…
Hire a bunch of Islamic folks to teach the Bible - both OT and NT.
Then let all the Christers teach the Koran.
I’m willing to bet the Bible class will be honest and educational while the Koran class will be full of hate and vitriol.
Phuck all of you.
By Former conservative
March 26, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
The problem with a class on the bible in public schools is the foundation of our government, separation of church and state, is violated.
Certain persons think their religion is the only one that is correct and, thus, these people violate what they teach—love and acceptance for all.
Religion has become a means of discrimination and hypocrisy. It has no value in a public, government funded school system.
Send your kids to a private, christian academy if this is so important. Can’t afford the tuition? Too bad.
By lovelyliz
March 26, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this
If the Bible could be taught like it was when I was in college as part of a comparative religion class that would be great. From experience, I know this won’t be the case when it’s taught around here. Make no mistake about it. It’s going to end up being a King James Bible thumping, Protestant religion class.
I am just waiting for the first lawsuit to be filed when those teaching these classes go over the line. Way over the line.
By MusicTeacher
March 26, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this
By JohnF “…how will the teacher handle this with the black students that take the class?”
Rarely is there a blog where some white person doesn’t bring up race, yet it is blacks that are accused of constantly using the race card. Hmmm…I wonder why.
I teach daily and my students and I have conversations about religion. They always assume that we can’t have those discussions, however they’re always curious about the different religions. Rather than discuss what they should believe in, we discuss history. It can be done. Don’t assume that there aren’t those of us that can’t. Although I’m a christian, I completely accept other people’s rights to believe differently. Give it a chance.
By Fulton
March 26, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
If more people REALLY knew the history behind the Bible and how it came into power, they’d run for the hills. Like BIGFOOT, seperation of church and state has ALWAYS been a myth. We have been duped by a catch-phrase
I thought if you wanted your kids to get a ‘religious’ education, you sent them to private school that specialized in such.
Add this & ‘Confederate History Month’ to the growing list of why this state is moving bassackwards.
In Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Hari-Krishnas name we pray…
By Gene
March 26, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
NO, the Bible should not be taught in the public school. The curriculum that will be written for the class will be in the English Department, that means it will be taught as “Literature” the same as a Shakespear or fiction. The Bible will lose it’s credibility as a document of truth. The only place to teach the Bible is in the home or in the individuals place of worship. It seems to be a copt out on the part of parents to allow the Bible to be taught by the public school.
By Fulton
March 26, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
**Personally, I’d just be happy if GA could properly teach the BASICS:
You know like Reading, Writing and Arithmatic??
Nail THAT down before you go taking on additional challenges**
By Charles
March 26, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this
Yes, the Bible should be taught in public schools on a cursory level. Citizens in the United States of America should know on a superficial level what the overwhelming majority of Americans say that we believe and the origin of that belief system. I don’t think we need to teach critical analysis because the Bible for most people is a book of faith. Critical analysis will always result to an issue of faith. We have scholars in each denomination that can provide a critical argument pro or con for a denomination or its teachings. The teaching of the bible in public schools at a cursory level will suffice.
It’s a sad state of affairs when an American can write verbatim verses from the new and old testaments and citizens can’t recognize a word being written or their origin.
By JustMe
March 26, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
Keep church and state (education, for example) separate!!! Do we want to really become a religon-based nation like Iran?
By SL
March 26, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
Huh? Not sure I understand the difference between teaching evolution and Christianity in schools. Both are theories and beliefs and not definitive scientific fact. Hence the reason why they call it the theory of evolution. Sadly you libs think theories are definitive fact. The Bible is fact. The belief and faith in them are just that, a belief. The history of humanity in the era and social structures and tendencies of people are very important for children to understand as they grow up in this world. The Bible not only teaches discipline but also sociology, history, science, myth, fact, decision making, family unity, self-reliance, individualism, team work, etc., etc. I think what people need to ask themselves is, How can I be as stupid as a liberal? Answer: Only study that which you believe, for all else is false and never existed, nevermind fact.
By JohnF
March 26, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
MusicTeacher,
I wasn’t trying to bring up a racial issue, but instead wanted to point out the reality that there are passages in the bible that may cause conflict to the students, and the bibles depiction of slavery would be one of these issues for a black student. A question from the black student, who is apt to be sensitive to the subject of slavery, may question how righteous a text can be that doesn’t treat slavery as the immoral institution it is…The bible may not condone the concept of slavery but it doesn’t condemn it either. How should the teacher handle this? Say the bible is obviously wrong because slavery has always been immoral? Or say back then slavery wasn’t immoral? And what about gay students?..young people are coming out of the closet in high school now and they expect to be treated fairly and with dignity…should the teacher gloss over that section of the bible that requires that particular student to be executed? Maybe the teacher believes that part of the bible and insists that it is God’s desire to execute homosexuals. Do you underestand my point now?..at some point in the class it is going to be unavoidable for the teacher to not say that the bible is right or that it is wrong. And in the case of a black student’s question about slavery the teacher that doesn’t say the bible is wrong will be condemned. The teacher can’t win. This is where this course is headed.
By Red
March 26, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this
Honestly, as bad as the education is in GA, how can this make it any worse?
No we are not a democracy, never have been and were not intended to be, at least not at the national level.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
By JoeyD
March 26, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
SL,
If todays students are anything like you they need to go back and re-learn grammer and basic writing skills, before taking on a bible course.
The Bible is fact. The belief and faith in them are just that, a belief.
I mean, what was that?!!!
By Sunny
March 26, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this
JohnF - I believe the slaves in biblical times where WHITE????
When they get into the areas concerning the stewardship of one’s slaves, how will the teacher handle this with the black students that take the class?
How does a teacher handle black students when teaching history regarding the civil war? It’s the same thing don’t you think?
By MARY IS THE MOTHER OF GOD
March 26, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Making the Bible into a secular document to be studied is just SO typical of the Jewish-Masonic-Protestant-Satanists that run the governments of the United States.
Virgin of Guadalupe, PRAY FOR US!
By JohnF
March 26, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
Sunny, I believe the slaves in biblical times where WHITE????
That’s not really relevant…
When they teach about slavery in history do the teachers suggest that slavery was justified? Maybe in a few obscure places in Georgia and Alabama but usually the answer would be no.
The bible clearly does this…If the bible says a slaveowner should treat his slaves in a particular way then it is justifying the practice of slavery.
Many people believe the bible is infallible, and the word of God, which to some would mean that God was ok with slavery…yet few people would say American slavery was justified…
So they are not the same..
By english teacher
March 26, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
As an English teacher I absolutely see the importance of teaching bible classes. Many works of literature include allusions and symbolism which are in reference to the bible. In college I often had a difficult time analyzing the literature because I did not have Bible knowlege. The Bible is an important book throughout history, and should be included in any well-rounded education. I don’t think the state Bible classes are intended to save souls and convert students to Christianity.
By V for Vendetta
March 26, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
english teacher,
I’m with you on that one, but it would be an impossibility. People would not want to hear that their beloved Bible was written by multiple authors over a large time span. They would not want to hear that the Bible STEALS heavily from other works that came before it (the epic of Gilgamesh for example which pre-dates the Bible by a few thousand years). They could not handle that sort of information.
This is not college people, we’re talking K-12 here. Leave the intellectual religious courses for the college kids. They are the only ones that can handle them anyway. I took a bunch of them in college. It helped me form my belief that organized religion is a terrible, terrible thing. But hey, that’s just me …
By Former conservative
March 26, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this
English teacher,
Please don’t be naive. I see your point and I agree with you. However, many christians in our state, including educators, do not always interpret the bible in such a way as you. Therefore, I do believe it will become an avenue to “save souls and convert to christianity”.
If teachers were open minded and could challenge the students to really think about the passages in the bible (i.e., Noah’s ark—is that really feasible?) I think it would work well. However, I do not see that happening.
By Agave
March 26, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
How about teaching classes that have a real impact on everyone like drivers education, financial management, or parenting?
By drew
March 26, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
on the topic of slavery, the type of slavery we have been taught about in school is different than that in biblical times. a family that found themselves in deep debt could sell themselves into slavery to their debtor to work off the debt over a period of time, and then be set free once it had been paid off. the slavery of the time was not based on race or religion. however, thats beside the point.
“Religion is faith, religion is belief, but most of all religion is OPINION”
By Bo
March 26, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this
Beware you blasphemers and heretics!
The Lord is speaking through this legilation and these Senators and Representatives and if you ignore the word of the Lord, you will pay the eternal price.
Children need to know that Jesus loves them despite their wicked ways. Jesus died to save them from what their godless parents teach them. We need to share the facts with these children. They need to know that Evolution is wrong and that homosexuals are going to hell.
In a Bible class, we can teach that all to them and explain to them why muslims are agents of Satan and why supporting Isreal is just as the Satanites will eventually destroy Jerusalem and hasten the true Second Coming of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!
Praise Jesus! Praise God!!
By chanceman
March 26, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this
OK, after reading these, I’m almost at a loss for words. Why is all of this hate so neccessary? Nobody is being attacked here. First of all, this class is being offered as an elective, which means that the students have a choice of whether to take it or not. If you don’t want your child to take it, then don’t let them. Secondly, as a Christian, I am very scared of the point of view from the teacher, as well as their historical and textual knowledge of the Bible. I know many of you think that every teacher that would teach this class would be Christian, but that is simply not the truth. Being a teacher myself, I know that there are many teachers that would be teaching this course who don’t have any leanings toward the Chirstian faith. As a matter of fact, these teachers in some cases would do everything in their power to disprove the Bible as anything but folk literature.
So, all of this to say that I am not so sure that I totally agree with this class being taught in the way that is purely historical. I would be tempted to say that it might be more valuable taught from a teacher who has knowledge in all areas of the Bible. Now before you start yelling at me through your computer, I would also say that if classes were offered in other religions as electives, that those classes should be taught in the same way. And as Christians, we need to realize that once this door is opened, it will eventually be opened to all religions. So, we have no ground to stand on when others are trying to make their way into the education system. As much as I would love to see students studying the Bible, I’m just not sure that this is the correct formula and I am very worried that teachers with an opposite agenda might pervert what we hold sacred.
Just a thought.
By MusicTeacher
March 26, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this
JohnF,
As a black person I am fully aware of the history of slavery. However, slavery in America was quite different from slavery during biblical times. There are many references to slavery in the bible, and the majority of my students are either Christian or Muslim. They already know that slavery existed long before the 1600’s.
The bible teaches history. I can remember reading literature in high school where there were several references to biblical passages or themes. Even the text books that we use in our music classes have religious based music. It is hard to get away from it. I am sure that most educators will teach it from a historical standpoint and not use it as an opportunity to teach doctrine. For example, while in college I took a world religions course taught by a christian pastor. I developed a deeper understanding of other religions and even saw how many of them are intertwined. He never told us what to believe and I don’t think educators teaching this course will either.
By V for Vendetta
March 26, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Drew, I would love to know what you mean when you say the Bible is “extremely accurate.” If you mean it accurately rips off many historical works that came before it, I’ll agree with you there. As I stated before, the entire flood story is cribbed nearly word for word from the epic of Gilgamesh which predates the Bible by around four thousand years or so.
Evolution is a theory yes, but it is a theory that is based on proven scientific fact. We understand genetics and how they work, we can speculate as to how we evolved from the earliest humans because of this knowledge. Carbon dating and paleontology use FACTS to estimate how and when animals like dinosaurs lived. Geologists use FACTS to determine that our planet is somewhere in the neighborhood of four billion years old.
The Bible is not bad really, it teaches some important life lessons that we should all abide by. Never, however, should it be taken as a fact. There are NO facts to support any of the theories presented within the Bible. It is foolish to imagine the Earth was created in seven days (something I have heard “interpreted” to explain things like dinosaurs and carbon dating), it is ignorant (as you say) to believe that the Earth was covered entirely with water at some point and saved by a man on a really big boat.
The problem when arguing with someone on the side of Faith is that they can reshape and twist their argument however they desire because no facts exist to back them up. It all comes down to belief. You either believe, or you don’t. It’s as simple as that.
By Smitty
March 26, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this
Good Lord Bo Talk about your backwards country life……do you really believe that crap?
I for one do not believe in God/Jesus and I really doubt he is coming back!!! What nonsense. No one has ever died and come back thousands of years later for a second time. AND There is no heaven or hell. Prove me wrong!!!
The bible is a NOVEL at best……and it teachings need to stay out of schools!!!! I HAVE to send my kids to school, I don’t HAVE to send them to church.
By lovelyliz
March 26, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
If the Bible classes cross the line from literature into proselytizing Protestant Christianity, who will pay for the lawsuits?
By SL
March 26, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
JoeyD, lick my wang. ~~~The Bible is fact slick. God exists, Jesus existed, and the Holy Ghost is real. The Bible is real. The people in the Bible are real. And everything in the Bible is FACT! Jesus fed 10,000 with one fish and a half a loaf of bread. Turned water into wine. Was resurrected from the grave. Don’t believe me? Read the Bible. Compare everything in the Bible to your pseudo-intellectual text books from your commy school you attended. Blogs are for quick responses while hiding the window in the background while your at work. Not for loser women and househusbands with nothing to do but milk welfare. So the necessity for proper grammar and sentence structure kind of goes out the window when your not supposed to be blogging anyway. But thanks for the eng”r”ish lesson A-hole.
By huey
March 26, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this
I feel that teaching some of the bible in school is a good thing if it is done properly. The bible does teach kids good things like thou shall not kill and steal,and honering your parents.Something kids these days need to hear.Plus during the year the kids have to learn about and celebrate such foolishness as St patrick’s day,Valentines day,the Easter bunny,Halloween,Santa clause & Columbus day!But it is an uproar if the kids learn about the bible,MLK,or black history!
By Bo
March 26, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this
Smitty,
It is people like you who’s children need this class the most.
Just because you are going to hell does not mean your children should too.
Give them a chance to feel the Almighty Power of the Lord and they too can be saved like me and the rest of God’s chosen people.
The Lord may love you but I assure you, He does not like you so much.
By chanceman
March 26, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
Smitty,
Unfortunatly, it is not about what you believe, it is about truth. No, I can’t prove to you anything about heaven or hell. However, one day you will find out for sure. And it seems that you are a betting man, for if you are wrong, then you will spend an eternity in hell…and eternity doesn’t have an ending. But just suppose that I am wrong, what do I have to hang my hat on? I leave a legacy of love and service for everyone that I came in contact with. That doesn’t seeem like such a bad thing. And by the way, I find your wording very interesting. How can you really doubt that Jesus is coming back again, if you do not believe in Him at all?
I would beg you to please not close your mind and heart to God. He wants so bad to have a relationship with you, but it will take faith and belief on your part. Don’t wait until you die because it will be too late then. I would ask you to read the gospel of John and Romans, while praying sincerely that God would open your heart and eyes to the truth. After all, you have nothing to lose except a little bit of your time if you are right. However, if I’m right, please consider what might happen.
Good luck and have a great day!
By Fulton
March 26, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this
**Oh LORD, here we go. According to characters like BO, the Lord is now speaking thru our (crooked?) Senators & State Reps? And now, I’m supposed to depend on THESE guys for my spiritual guidance?
See, this is EXACTLY the type of LUNACY that many are concerned about, once YOUR RELIGION creeps into OUR educational system.**
By brett
March 26, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this
BO- SHUT UP
all you are doing is giving christians in general a bad name and driving people farther away from God. and if you are some guy trying to do just that by pretending to be a christian then your not doing anybody any favors. i think i recall something in the bible about presenting the gospel in a calm, loving way, not being forceful????
By Bo
March 26, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this
Brett,
You cannot intimidate me into silence for I am an oracle for the Word of the Lord!!
You have not read the entirety of the sacred text if you truly believe GOD expects us to be meek and let agents of Satan to overcome the faithful!!
By drew
March 26, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this
The shells of living mollusks have been dated using the carbon 14 method, only to find that the method gave it a date as having been dead for 23,000 years.(Science vol. 141 1963 pg. 634-637)
this is your “proven scientific fact”. tests have been run on the same material showing results ranging tens of thousands of years. FACT? i wouldnt go so far. and its unusual that as time goes on, the age of the earth keeps growing and growing and growing… scientists know that it is impossible to account for the time it would take for evlution to occur in such short period of time.
and whether or not you believe in the theological aspects of the bible, it is impossible to deny that it is historically accurate. if the same tests were applied to judge whether the Bible is appropriate for use in schools as with the other materials used, it would easily pass. and the fact that it was written by over 40 authors over a period of time, and the fact that they are all in coherence, should be evidence enough that it is reliable.
as a historical and literary source, a study of the bible absolutely should be offered as an ELECTIVE in public schools. this is not the only area in which a teacher can apply bias in the teaching of a material. theorys and unproven ideas exist in many subjects but that doesnt mean it should not be taught at all. find a decent teacher who will not taint it with his views and it will do no harm. biblical ignorance is no solution. if one is going to deny it, they should at least be familiar with what they are saying no to.
By brett
March 26, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this
so it doesnt discourage you, Bo, that you are probably the reason somebody will never see the truth? im almost ashamed to call myself a christian because of people like you- who allow labels to be applied that completely contradict what Jesus stood for. then again thats probably what you want isnt it? to drive people away. The bible is all about grace and mercy- “…for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.” John 3:17
people never get a chance to see that aspect of christianity when all the hear is “REPENT! YOURE GOING TO HELL!” thats not what Jesus was about
By lovelyliz
March 26, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this
Reading and memorizing the text of the Bible does not make one a good Christian if they don’t understand.
What I understand is that the Bible (or the Torah, Koran for that matter) as a literary work can be taught, but those who seek to teach it as indoctrination will ruin the concept.
By Former conservative
March 26, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this
Chanceman, I think you are a good example of Christians using fear to make others submit to your beliefs.
*Eternity in hell? I would beg you to please not close your mind and heart to God. He wants so bad to have a relationship with you, but it will take faith and belief on your part. *
Don’t try to scare people into religion. You will leave behind a legacy of love and service, but so will I. I’m a kind, loving, sincere person and treat others with respect no matter their background. Just because I question certain things from the bible doesn’t mean I’m going to hell.
Lead by example, not condemnation.
By JoeyD
March 26, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this
Well SL you are a mental viking arent’ you?
The bible is true because it says it is??? Is this your logic..Slick?
Wait..you just being facetious aren’t you? You can’t really be this retarded…
And what is all that welfare talk about? Sorry, even eight year olds can make more coherent postings than you..
Moron..
By Bo
March 26, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this
Brett,
Shame on you.
“So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Revelation 2:22-23
By JoeyD
March 26, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this
Drew,
I think they have probably made some advances in radiometric dating since 1963. Your creationist web sites need to update their propaganda.
(Did you even notice the date on that citation?)
By JoeyD
March 26, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this
Jesus loves you but everyone else thinks you’re an a-hole
Some bumper ticker..
By Bob
March 26, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this
As a public school teacher, I can assure you my students will love the story of a drunken Lot impregnating his own daughters. They’ll love the law that says it’s ok to rape a virgin as long as you either marry her or pay off her father. And the passage where God punishes Saul for not killing every last Amalekite, including the women, children, elderly and their livestock. Or when the she-bears devoured the children who were mocking God’s prophet. Our high-schoolers will enjoy the Old Testament passage that says, “If a man is depressed, give him strong drink that he may forget his trouble.” My African-American students will enjoy all the provisions regarding slavery, including Paul’s endorsement of the institution. Yes, I think this will really interest my students.
By Aquagirl
March 26, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this
Drew, if you want to accept an account where a guy stuffed two or seven of every living creature into a big boat as historical fact, okay. Other people with brains realize that this isn’t real history.
By GaNative
March 26, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this
HELL NO. There is no way you could offer Bible as a class in school. Religion is too complicated with all the differet facets. You can’t satisfy them all. You’re bound to make those that are not christians mad. You’ll even make some of the christians mad, that’s why we have soooo many different denominations and non denominations all under christianity teaching the bible. If preachers are having a hard time teaching the bible, what makes you think teachers can do it better?
By halpert
March 26, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this
read above comment: SLAVERY OF THE TIME WAS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS BLACK PEOPLE- NOR DID IT INVOLVE PREJUDICE TOWARDS RACE- at least not the kind mentioned in the bible. those in debt sold themselves to their debtors to pay it off- then were set free. although racial and geographical discrimination has had influence upon slavery of our time and biblical times to a degree, this is not what the bible refers to. and also- many of the laws and anecdotes of the old testament- graciously provided by our own BOB, were rewritten when Jesus came- providing the atoning sacrifice so there would be no need for animal sacrifice or many of the insanely strict laws given to the Jews.
By GaNative
March 26, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this
LOL at Bob and his class. Hey Bob, don’t forget how your class will analyze God view on homosexuality with something like this. “If God believed in homosexuality he would have impregnated Joseph instead of Mary, afterall, God can do anything and nothing is impossible for him”.
By tyndall
March 26, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
and for the skeptics of the flood- i think it would be a little far-fetched to arrtibute the skeletons and fossils of fish and other underwater life to a bunch of eskimos who got bored one day and decided to climb the tallest mountains carrying buckets of fish remains. other than that though there is substantial evidence for the flood. educated athiests would agree with that statement.
By Kia
March 26, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this
It seems so strange to me that the ones who are all gung-ho about having the Bible taught in our schools are the MAIN ones lashing out in ridiculous anger and acting as contrary to Bible principles as possible. Please, be quiet, as you could not possibly give Christianity the respect it deserves.
There’s a significant difference between religion and religious texts. I believe that RELIGION is a subject for parents to teach their children at home and through religious institutions. While knowledge of religious texts in general (to include the religious books of other relgions) is beneficial, I highly doubt that in a state so steeped in the “my religion is the best and I’ll shoot anyone who doesn’t agree” doctrine, there will ever be a separation of religion and religious texts. Our educational system should first figure out why our students lag behind almost ALL other states in the basics.
By Atheistic Approach
March 26, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this
Well I see all the thumpers have gotten on here, so I’ll try to put in my two cents before they lock it down.
First, one of the best college courses I ever took was on World Religions. It really was a fascinating course. Too bad that can’t be taught instead of GA trying to thumb it’s collective noses at the rest of us.
Second, Bible classes have NO place in public schools. Either get a voucher and send your kid to a private school, or send them to Sunday School.
Lastly, I think some of the thumpers responses to this blog SCREAM of why I don’t want the Bible taught in public schools. Keep it to yourself folks. Your way may be the right way for you, but not necessarily for the rest.
‘Nuff said.
By Who?
March 26, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this
I think it is the Christians who should be most afraid and upset with this. Have any of you stopped to think WHICH view of Christainity is going to be taught to your children and WHO’S beliefs are your children going to be taught to follow? There are as many as there are days in a year.
I grew up in a church that does not believe a musical instrument is permitted during hymns. Further, the Christian denomination I was raised in believes it is the only true Christian religion and all others are wrong, evil and those who follow anything but the church I was raised in, are not going to heaven.
Women are to be subserviant to men — all men. Very unliberating religon for women. Literal creationism. No music. No dancing. Our school did not have a prom - I went to their religous high school. In high school the boys took college prep classes, we learned how to clean house and cook in home ec. Women in swimsuits were frowned upon. Shorts -frowned upon.
By RamblinLonghorn
March 26, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this
Chanceman: Why can’t smitty, or anyone else, not believe and god and also lead a life of “love and service?”
Religion doesn’t hold a monopoly on compassion and service. And any religion that would condemn me to hell for not acknowledging their deity seems pretty unloving to me.
By RamblinLonghorn
March 26, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this
Drew: Mollusks…that’s the best you can do. An article from a journal that is now 44 years old…about mollusks.
That’s the beautiful thing about science and scholarship in general; It can change. The reason it’s called the Theory of Evolution, is because Science isn’t presumptive enough to assume that it knows all the answers and that Darwin, or any other scientist, is absolutely right about evolution. When we are absolutely right, we call it a law (see thermodynamics). Citing a 40 year old article about mollusks doesn’t trump over 100 years of research.
Sorry, Australopithecus afarensis trumps your mollusks.
By The World ISN'T FLAT
March 26, 2007 6:26 PM | Link to this
How would you raging fundamentalists like it if people like Tom Cruise got to put stickers in science and psychology books telling “you to look at this material with an open mind.” Religion(any religion) and State should be seperate. I bet the f-ing Christian coalition would protest if the state wanted to offer a class on Wiccan beliefs.(I don’t think they should)Comparative Religion courses are OK, but not the blatant promotion of a single faith that this course does. Christian Republicans in the south are as far from classic conservatives as you can possible get! There is nothing conservative about promoting your faith(with the help of government)above others. Most of the problems in the world are rooted in fundamentalist religion. Islamic fundamentalist blow themselves up in the name of faith. Christian fundamentalists in America vote for Bush and encourage him to blow people up in the name of their faith. Hindu nationalists/Islamic fundamentalists blow each other up in the name of faith. For over 100 years Religious wars raged and millions died in Europe over the Catholic/Protestant divide after the Reformantion. Religious fundamentalism sucks! It’s dangerous in any form or fashion. We shouldn’t promote it in our state, but beyond this bill Georgia is basically becoming “The Baptist Republic of Georgia.” The Sunday alcohol sales bill has failed, the recent abortion bills had NOTHING TO with womans health, and before you know it we will be having another Scopes trial in Georgia. Of course, I will stand and fight BUBBA conservatism, but I think open minded Atlanta conservatives need to either take their party back or vote Libertarian. REDNECKS SHOULDN’T HAVE ABSOLUTE POWER IN THIS STATE!
By RamblinLonghorn
March 26, 2007 6:32 PM | Link to this
tyndall: Plate tectonics answers that question. When two large plates converge they create a zone of tectonic buckling and the crust of the earth is launched skyward.
India was once separate from Asia, between them was the Tethys Sea. The indian plate crashed into the asian plate, and bam, the Himalayas were created, and because it had mostly been underwater, fozzilized fish remains can be found.
By Charles
March 26, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this
I am a Christian and really enjoy reading the Bible and other related and unrelated books. I’m sure that all of our students will learn from stories contained in the Bible. Some of the stories are used to explain the unexplainable.
Another good book to read is The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors by Kersey Graves. He indicates in his book that many Biblical stories and Saviors predate the Bible and can be found in other ancient texts. Kersey claims as people became more educated, a better holy book was produced. The holy book of people in the ancient world benefits the reader less the book of the Jews. The holy book of Jews benefits the reader less than the book of the Christians. The holy book of the Christians benefits the reader less than the book of the Muslims.
Kersey’s work is rewarding but I don’t think its purpose was to transform the reader into a devotee of ancient religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, freethinkers, believers, or disbelievers.
Learning is great! Bring on the Bible.
By Lynn M
March 26, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this
What about the Land of the Free, and Home of the Brave? This is why America was formed. For Religious Freedom. This is the Foundation of our country and the bible was a huge part of it. (You know, a building can be moved or, removed easily—but a FOUNDATION,…that is not going to be as easy, and this is what we are talking about. America. (I do not believe anyone will force this class on any child.) But this is what our country fought for and is based on. Please don’t force so much fighting. The church is going to end up probably in homes anyway. I can’t imagine why some people go to such lengths to file law suits, etc. God is coming back —you can surely bet on that. We are all down here doing our best to stir up dissention among each other over this class. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could all read Romans, Chapter 8, all together? (Father, forgive me,… and whoever you are, if something has hurt you in this comment, please forgive me too.)
By John
March 26, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this
This mess will all blow over as soon as some Christian sues the schools over their child not being taught the Bible in a proper manner by some non-Christian teacher.
By RamblinLonghorn
March 26, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this
Lynn: The constitution guarantees more to someone who isn’t Christian than it does to someone who is not.
Establishment clause says that the government can’t endorse or create a religion to be a national religion.
Free Exercise says they can’t keep you from worshiping where, when and how.
And I’d say this country is built as much on the writings of John Locke, Montesqieu, Rousseau, Voltaire, Newton, and other Enlightenment figures than it is on the Bible.
By Corey
March 26, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this
If we were not self conscious beings there would be no religion, and we would not be having this conversation. “I thinketh; therefore I am.” When the species man evolved into a self conscious being and realized his consciousness all hell broke lose and religion began to grow like a cancer.
By jim
March 26, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this
the constitution guarantees more to someone who is not a christian than to someone who isn’t? thats odd. and last i checked the Bible was written long before the enlightenment period and most likely had a massive influence on their ideas…
By Shelly
March 26, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this
The Bible is a fantastic piece of literature. Yes, it is the Word of God but it is also a piece of history that cannot be ignored. I believe that it should be offered as an elective for students to take in public schools if they so desire. The Bible is not just something that is read on Sundays. Why is it okay to study Ancient Egypt in school but kids can’t elect to study the Bible as a piece of literature?
By thor
March 26, 2007 8:27 PM | Link to this
how is it ok for us to take entire semesters of ancient greek and nordic mythology learning about the gods and the interactions between them and the humans, but when it comes to christianity, the religion of the majority of americans, its all iffy. and to some of you earlier people, nobody sat down and said, “ok christianity is going to be americas chosen language and anybody who disagrees will be punished”. it is not our “chosen” religion. it is however, what the majority of us believe- or at least claim to believe. if you ask someone if they are a christian or not, most will say yes. when you ask them what that means, most have no idea. they say to get to heaven you must do good deeds, be a good person, and try not to mess up too much. it would be good for people to have some sort of understanding of what the majority of the country says they believe.
By DICK
March 26, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this
There’s a big difference between christians and freaking nutjobs. Lets not lump them together. Anyone who blabs on about the Bible needs to have it stuffed down their throat so they can choke on it. If all these idiots who blab about how the bible is the word of god and the solution to all ails needs to learn how to read. Oh yeah there are plenty of fools who can’t read and yet quote the bible.
By DICK
March 26, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this
Let’s all go celebrate!! Georgia is the laughing stock of the nation and world because of the “Bible Belt”. I just watched Lewis Black(a Jewish guy) say that he did a bit on religeon when he was in our state of GA and the audience immediately burst into laughter. Thanks alot! I guess it’s time to move somewhare the 21st century is recognized and they’re not burning witches willy-nilly
By Val
March 26, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
Oh my gosh. Are you people serious? I’m in college now and get religion thrown in my face everyday. Why would you choose to do that to children? I agree that this class should be taught as an elective from an unbias view…though I just don’t think it is possible. People love to point fingers. People like Bo are the reasons why I am agnostic. And to whomever claimed that homosexuals are going to hell…better realize what you are saying. “Thou shall not judge” sound familiar? I am so sick of this crazy state and the idiocracy we all “believe.” People mature and grow over time and when the individual has reached a state of maturity they will claim their own beliefs. Step out of your parents shadows and think for yourselfs!
By Vanyel
March 26, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this
The Bible is certainly an influential source for Western literature. But then, so are the works of Classical writers like Sophocles and Euripides. So is the cannon of Greek mythology. So are other religious texts and mythologies. Why not study them all, if giving students the tools they need to appreciate literature is really the goal?
I hate to tell all of you religious loons, but the Bible is not an historical document. The events protrayed within the Old Testament, in parrticular, are no more verifiable than Zeus turning into a swan and banging the hell out of Leto. It’s a mythological text that many people have chosen to believe in, but it’s not…sorry, you slack-jawed mouth-breathing morons…it’s NOT history.
And you really need to look up the scientific definition of “theory” before you start ranting about evolutionary theory. I realize that most of you have vocabularies that stopped devloping in fifth grade, but let’s grow a little, shall we, inbred troglodytes?
I get so sick of you religious freaks thinking that you should be able to revise history so that it agrees with your pathetic superstition. I have an idea…why don’t all of you move to Saudi Arabia where theocracy already exists. You can team up with the Islamic morality police and beat up, arrest and execute everyone who doesn’t agree with you. You’ll be much happier there, and we REAL Americans can continue to pursue those freedoms guaranteed us by our wonderful Constitution - a Constitution designed to keep you hateful bigots OUT of government.
By Sad, Sad, Sad
March 26, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
Interesting that most of the comments made by the “true believers” revolve around the importance of teaching the Bible as factual history, or as the only real moral philosophy. Isn’t that exactly what these classes are supposed NOT to do?
Egyptian history and culture, Greek history and culture, Roman history and culture, etc. etc. etc. are taught from an objective and historical standpoint. Those studies are based on many, many original source documents and other anthropological works…teaching the Bible would be like taking the Book of the Dead ONLY and teaching an entire Egyptian history course based on the single text.
It is intellectually dishonest - nay, BANKRUPT - to use a single text that is separated from the period it purports to describe by a millenia or more.
God, or whatever Divinity you believe in, save us from fools and zealots.
By Katie
March 27, 2007 5:53 AM | Link to this
The bible is a good story, yes a story, and that’s about it on that. Mark, you are a nut job, plain and simple.
By Bo
March 27, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this
It all boils down to this:
We’re in power now. Deal with it or move.
Glory to GOD!!
Georgia is a Christian state and you will be saved or you will burn.
By RH
March 27, 2007 8:07 AM | Link to this
I strongly agree with the comments By V for Vendetta (good job Vendetta) “Religion is faith, religion is belief, but most of all religion is OPINION. People all over the world have different religious faiths, opinions, and beliefs, but that is all they are”. We should pass our believes to our kids at home, home is the place to pass your religion, your culture and/or your opinion. Public School is for secular education not for religious education. For religious education, we have Church, mosques, temples, etc.
By facts
March 27, 2007 8:18 AM | Link to this
Consider these simple facts: the year is 2007, a numbering system based on the life of Jesus. Our schools teach a “theory” that all life evolved from a primordial soup-a theory that cannot be replicated in the laboratory. It’s a theory, not a fact. The theory states that this soup somehow created an amino acid, that somehow created a protein, and that somehow led to a human that can reason, see, move, speak, love, or hate. The theory believes mankind evolved from the soup in one direction, and the petunia in another, but according to Darwin, we’re of the same stock. DNA, with as much information as is in an encyclopedia, is “random” according to “science”, as is the eye and the brain, however, the watch you wear is from an “intelligent design”. It is a “fact” that Jesus walked this earth, that he existed. No reasonable person would disagree with that. It’s a fact that in the Bible, Jesus proclaimed to be the Son of God. So what is Jesus? In the words of C.S. Lewis, one must decide whether He is Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. It is a question that failing to answer is an answer unto itself-that is, the question may not be ignored. If school is to help students learn and to think critically, is there a more important question to be asked and answered? Our country was not founded by a group of atheists-“In God we trust” is on all of our currency. Expose the kids to the Bible and let them read what it has to say. I dare say few of the opponents have even read the book-the Bible stands on its own. (For those of you contemplating reading it, please don’t start at page 1. Start with the Gospel of Matthew, or the Gospel of John. Read Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Matthew. It’s great stuff).
By GaNative
March 27, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this
LMAO at Bo with his Georgia is a Christian state comment. Really? OK, the great state of Georgia wants to rename the street that was named after Cynthia McKinney because she smacked a rent-a-cop. But nobody is saying a thing about renaming Earl Paulk Parkway and this self proclaimed Bishop has tried to screw or molest anything that wore a skirt.
By Katie
March 27, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this
By Facts, do you seriously believe that all life was created in a week? That woman came from a mans rib?? If so, you need to put the bong down, lay off the wacky stuff. I’m not saying that evolution is true but to believe the bible to be 100% accurate is simply dumb. There’s more out there then we’ll ever see and we’ll never have the answers. We should keep seeking ‘truths’ and stop beating a story book.
By Memeber of the sane minority
March 27, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this
I want to get a job teaching bible studies in a south Georgia publ