AJC > Sports > Hawks > Blog > Archives > 2009 > February > 08 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USSay what? (and trade talk)
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
HAWKSVILLE - Of all the things uttered during after the Hawks’ inexplicable home loss to the Los Angeles Clippers Saturday night, these words from their captain and All-Star sting the most.
“Had I known we were going to stink this bad, I’d have come in a suit,” Joe Johnson told a crowd of reporters around his locker after the Hawks deflating 121-97 loss, just their sixth this season at Philips Arena.
Surely those were not the kind words of encouragement the rest of the Hawks were looking for after winning back-to-back road games earlier in the week without him. Johnson couldn’t have been more brutal in his assessment of how things had gone (although, before anyone assumes he was throwing his teammates under the bus he did say “we” and not “they”).
Truth be told, the chill in Johnson’s tone and game dating back to early last month have been unmistakable. He’s not feeling his best these days. There’s been no real indication as to why, other than the extensive minutes he’s logged all season and his growing frustration with the way teams are scheming to stop him.
If he’s frustrated with his teammates, though, I’d argue he has targeted the wrong group. They’ve played fairly well during his swoon, scrapping for wins (with and without him on the floor) in ways that simply weren’t conceivable the past few years.
Lest Johnson escape scrutiny himself, it has to be pointed out that the Hawks’ bell cow hasn’t exactly made life much easier for his teammates (despite his rising assist totals during the past six weeks) lately.
His struggles have been their struggles. His funk their funk. His roller coaster their roller coaster … sorry, I got carried away there for a second.
If this team does indeed rise and fall based on his play, they’ve certainly fallen as Johnson’s numbers have in the past five weeks. So long as Johnson was feeling good and playing as he was used to, the Hawks were fine (they entered January sporting a 21-11 record and feeling like they could conquer the Eastern Conference on their best nights).
They are just 8-10 since then, and save for a three-week win-streak two weeks ago, playing much more like the work in progress many of the so-called pundits predicted they would be in the preseason.
It’s hard to believe the Hawks of the past six weeks are related to the Hawks of the first six weeks of this season, yet their link is undeniable.
The DNA samples match.
But somewhere along the way these Hawks lost themselves.
There are only a few days left before the All-Star break (could any team need a chance to rest, reflect and recharge?), so the Hawks won’t have long to find their way back to that harmonious place they lived in November and December.
Take a good look at the upcoming schedule and you’ll understand why it is so crucial that they get back to normal.
* TRADE TALK *
Before I dive head first into this whole trade discussion involving Amare Stoudemire, I’d like to know what it is exactly about this dynamic, 6-10, 245-pound bull that the fine folks in Phoenix have a problem with?
I understand the Suns are currently out of the playoff picture in the Western Conference. But what does that have to do with Stoudemire (who is giving the Pistons the business tonight)?
Granted, we’re talking about the Suns here, a team known for egregious personnel miscalculations in recent years (see Joe Johnson above). And if they are determined to make a move as foolish as trading Stoudemire, someone stands to reap the benefit of their boorish behavior.
The Hawks have been featured prominently in the speculation surrounding Stoudemire - as should be expected of any team with quality young players (guys named Horford, Smith and Williams) and expiring contracts (Bibby and Pachulia) - one of more than a half dozen teams being reported haphazardly by various outlets.
Two major glitches to the Hawks being players in this scenario - a) the Hawks are over the salary cap right now and b) the one asset (Josh Smith) they have that would appear to fit with the Suns going forward has a contract status that conflicts with any deal being done before the summer (base year compensation rules apply).
So I made a few calls over the past four days to gauge just how legitimate a potential Hawks-Suns deal could be, and the vote was 4-0 on the negative side.
“There’s just no way I see it happening,” an Eastern Conference pro personnel director friend of mine told me. “It’s one of those things that sounds good when people are talking about it. And it might even seem like it makes sense on paper. And if you could make a straight up swap or a 2-for-1 deal that allowed you to cover yourself, maybe you’d stretch to get it done. But that’s just what I could see getting done here.”
Another director of scouting friend told me that if the Hawks do anything, he sees them doing something like what the Bobcats did when they moved Adam Morrison and Shannon Brown to the Lakers Saturday.
“When they’re healthy, the Hawks core groups is fine,” he said. “What they need is some help in the depth department. If they’re going to stick around that top five in the East, they’re going to have to find a little more help off the bench to have a chance to advance in the playoffs. But they’d be nuts to ship off one of these young guys before it’s time. They owe to themselves to see how far this group can push it this year before doing anything hasty.”
Only time will tell. The trade deadline is Feb. 19, so we’ll see if my guys know what they’re talking about soon enough.
Comments
By Flappin' Hawk
February 8, 2009 10:54 PM | Link to this
The difference maker is Bibby, Baby. No 2 ways about it. Bibby makes this team go. He makes everyone better because teams have to defend his outside shot. With him out of the line up we are a .500 club at best. No team in the league would have beaten the Clippers last night. They couldn’t miss a shot, but it would have been much closer with Bibby. Hope he’s back soon.
By ant banks
February 8, 2009 11:02 PM | Link to this
dag!! 2nd place tonight?
By Patrick
February 8, 2009 11:06 PM | Link to this
DOB
Any plans to trade for another backup at C? I remember the game against the Suns, when Horford was hurt and Zaza and Solomon were in foul trouble. I think we need another big. Any thoughts on making a deal to get another backup? And, if not C, at what positions could we upgrade the backup?
By ant banks
February 8, 2009 11:10 PM | Link to this
if detroit gets amare, we move out of that 4th seed. if miami get amare, we move out of that 4th seed. if the nets get amare, we move out of that 4th seed.
catch my drift?
the teams below us in the east, are in the mix with making a trade before the deadline and that would make them appreciably better. that spells t-r-o-u-b-l-e for the hawks.
By ant banks
February 8, 2009 11:14 PM | Link to this
flappin’ hawk bibby is good, but in the playoffs, he will become a liability. he rarely drives to the hole, which increases the shot percentage and draws a foul, gettin’ other players in foul trouble, which causes the coach to make some adjustments.
he gets scorched on defense by quicker point guards like mo williams or rondo, who we will see in the playoffs.
bibby is a jump shooter, that’s it. if he is on he is on, but if he is off, he can’t score for you in other ways.
By ant banks
February 8, 2009 11:16 PM | Link to this
patrick bibby is the only REAL trade asset that we have that anyone else would want. what center would you want for bibby?
By ant banks
February 8, 2009 11:18 PM | Link to this
based on their play during the past month, i see the hawks droppin’ to the 6th or 7th seed. detroit and miami are goin’ to get better with a trade before the deadline.
we don’t have the pieces to offer in a trade to get better.
By Harry Hawk
February 8, 2009 11:22 PM | Link to this
I’m starting to think that Marcus Camby would be a damn good pickup for this club.
Just get ‘em to take a Zaza/Speedy/rights to David Andersen deal.
(Gotta love the ESPN Trade Machine.)
By SB
February 8, 2009 11:22 PM | Link to this
I’d rather have Bosh. If he’s really available.
By shawn
February 8, 2009 11:39 PM | Link to this
Agreed Camby is the one they need to go get.
By darrell starks
February 8, 2009 11:41 PM | Link to this
AMARE WITH MIAMI WOULD PUT THE HEAT AT 4 SEAD IN THE EAST HE WANTS TO COME SOUTH I CAN SEE THAT HAPPENING GO HAWKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Realist
February 8, 2009 11:45 PM | Link to this
Say what is right, Sekou. You claim the Suns are guilty of “egregious personnel miscalculations?” How do you figure? Joe Johnson was a restricted Free Agent, if you can’t remember, Sekou. For a guy that they did not feel they could afford to re-sign, the Suns talked the Hawks into trading a starting-caliber player and two—count ‘em, TWO—first-round picks. I think they calculated it exactly right.
The Hawks are the ones who still haven’t proven that paying that much for Johnson, when they could have just signed him to an offer sheet, was really worth it. They are a brief losing streak from being back on the playoff bubble, and with Bibby’s age and the current core of players, there’s no real reason to believe they will ever be a contender.
Meanwhile, since the trade, the Suns won 50 games for three straight years, and even in their DOWN year this year, they have basically the same record as the supposedly up-and-coming Hawks. Perspective, people.
By bill
February 8, 2009 11:46 PM | Link to this
whats the deal with Childress. If hes healthy he could help with depth. Dont the Hawks have the first rights to him.However if Bosh is available why not offer Horford and a pick.
By Ed
February 8, 2009 11:50 PM | Link to this
With the ASG we will stand pat and Bibby will walk at the end of the season. The next will be JJ as he will be playing out his last season next year & will certainly want to play elsewhere.
By bill
February 8, 2009 11:51 PM | Link to this
How would Camby help that seems to be part of the problem the Hawks dont have that guy that scares people down low. Get a low post scorer and see how quick things open up for JJ.
By SB
February 9, 2009 12:18 AM | Link to this
Bill, I don’t know that I would throw Horford in the package to start. I would try to build it around Marvin. Say Marvin, the rights to Chllldress, Speedy and ZaZa for Bosh and some kind of trade exception. They have their 4 of the future in place. Bargani and Marvin could be a nice tandem for them. Joe, Josh, and Chris could be our big three.
By doc
February 9, 2009 12:19 AM | Link to this
realist my perspective is the suns got mighty little for jj that they have used. diaw had a streak that ended with the pressure of the playoffs, they sent one of the picks to boston for nothing that turned into a player for the c’s and three years later have 1st rounder on the bench. that is the perspective i see along with their slide into severe mediocrity and nothing to show for it except the loss to the spurs with jj and the loss to the commish when he suspended amare and diaw and the spurs won it all.
what woke you up dude? an agenda?
as far as that trade havent we hashed it enough or maybe we can we get ando to chime in on the marvin vs. paul saga has turned out. geez, talk about old stuff. is it relevant or realist?
two words, steve nash kept them afloat, mvp in two of the years and a strong consideration last year. perspective realist, real perspective. without him, they are in need of the aflac duck.
By rms
February 9, 2009 12:19 AM | Link to this
Any trade is highly unlikely. But here’s one nobody thought of? How about we Trade Mike Woodson for cash and a 2nd round pick?
By Kaye
February 9, 2009 12:30 AM | Link to this
the hawks need a someone else who is fearless of taking it to the cup. via that by a wingman or a big….i say big….months ago, i thought Camby would fit the bill as i still do now. first lets talk about the baggage they can do without…..Zaza is one….speedy….and my personal fav….Acie……a combo of those for a big or whatever would help out some…..even throwing a pick in also. someone else would be Przybilla in portland…..this team just needs addition by addition and not addition by subtraction
By dmortone
February 9, 2009 4:09 AM | Link to this
Guess whose’s only gotten to the line 14 times in a game ONCE in his entire career? Guess who got to the line 14 and 20 times the two opportunities he’s had to be the number 1 offensive option?
Listen, JJ’s been great for this franchise as the number 1 option, but I think he’s reached his potential in that role. He’s not going to all of a sudden be a guy who can get to the line 20 times like Kobe to get his team easy points. His game is pure jump shooting. We can complain that he doesn’t get the calls or whatever, but the reality is if his shot’s not falling, he can’t score in other ways. He can’t consistantly take over games.
Marvin’s shown, when given the opportunity, he can, in fact, take over games. Now, granted, the sample size isn’t large, but I think he’s finally becoming the player he was drafted to be. Also, I think a lesser burden on JJ will allow him to flourish under less double teams, and less of the scoring load.
Lebron also regularly gets to the line 13+ times a game, and he’s a fairly productive player.
By dmortone
February 9, 2009 4:11 AM | Link to this
Also, I’d love to have Amare but I don’t think he’s worth the amount of young talent and chemistry we’d have to sacrifice. We’ve struggled for 4 years building up to this point, why tear it up and start over once we get good?
By dmortone
February 9, 2009 4:24 AM | Link to this
Also, before people get on me about comparing Marvin to Lebron, I’m not. It’s just that people keep talking about trading for someone who can share the scoring load with JJ and get to the cup consistently when I think we already have that someone on our roster.
By ATLIEN
February 9, 2009 5:47 AM | Link to this
What the Hawks need to do is stick with the team that is in place. Remember this is the same team that took Boston to seven games. Atlantan are famous for giving up on there teams. GO HAWKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Robert
February 9, 2009 6:36 AM | Link to this
Everyone and his mother knows that the problem with the hawk is the center position. Paschula has hands like rock and every time he gets the ball in the low post he loses control and begs for a foul. He STINKS! He makes a lot of turnovers and can not finish. He reminds me of Koncak. Except Koncak was better. Whenever the hawks play a team with a Good center they lose. Period!! you cant win in the NBA without a center. Hortford is a power foward filling the spot because 7ft Paschula cant. I love the Hawks but They will never compete for the crown without a center. Everybody knows that. We need a center to intimidate in the middle not wont to fumble the ball as Paschula almost always does.What a joke.
By Robert
February 9, 2009 6:39 AM | Link to this
Everyone and his mother knows that the problem with the hawk is the center position. Paschula has hands like rock and every time he gets the ball in the low post he loses control and begs for a foul. He STINKS! He makes a lot of turnovers and can not finish. He reminds me of Koncak. Except Koncak was better. Whenever the hawks play a team with a Good center they lose. Period!! you cant win in the NBA without a center. Hortford is a power foward filling the spot because 7ft Paschula cant. I love the Hawks but They will never compete for the crown without a center. Everybody knows that. We need a center to intimidate in the middle not wont to fumble the ball as Paschula almost always does.What a joke.
By Robert
February 9, 2009 6:40 AM | Link to this
Everyone and his mother knows that the problem with the hawk is the center position. Paschula has hands like rock and every time he gets the ball in the low post he loses control and begs for a foul. He STINKS! He makes a lot of turnovers and can not finish. He reminds me of Koncak. Except Koncak was better. Whenever the hawks play a team with a Good center they lose. Period!! you cant win in the NBA without a center. Hortford is a power foward filling the spot because 7ft Paschula cant. I love the Hawks but They will never compete for the crown without a center. Everybody knows that. We need a center to intimidate in the middle not wont to fumble the ball as Paschula almost always does.What a joke.
By The Grinch
February 9, 2009 7:22 AM | Link to this
I agree with Realist to an extent. Diaw and two #1’s wasn’t even necc. on our part to get Johnson; the egregious move in that sense was ours. They may have squandered that bounty, but that isn’t the point. I’m also fairly convinced JJ’s “flu-like symptoms” stem directly from being played into the ground. I really am curious why he’s lobbied so hard to keep Woodson who’s slaughtering his career. Perhaps he’s finally starting to realize that now hence the sour attitude.
Regardless, we need a big man. Sund spouted some nonsense about Al being a natural center at the beginning of the season, but surely that was spin. If the right trade comes along I hope they’ll make it.
Go Hawks! It can still happen.
By dap01
February 9, 2009 7:37 AM | Link to this
Joe is great, but it seems that his surely personality is not a personality of a leader.
Bibby is a great jump shooter and leader but he will be liability in the playoffs. If his shot is not on, he has no defense or driving ability.
Marvin is really stepping up. His improvement is amazing.
What is the long range plan by Sund? Sekou, is he building for the short term or long term? Would he trade Bibby for a long term solution at center? Are the Hawks building for the immediate run at a title or building for a stronger more long term solution? (Better in the pivot and more balanced all round).
One last thing, I hope JJ and hard headed Woodsen noted that someone besides JJ can score. Get an offense, not just another ISO play for JJ.
By Sekou K. Smith
February 9, 2009 7:44 AM | Link to this
Realist,
You’re talking about the 28-21 Suns? The Suns with the league’s eighth highest payroll (matching their current spot in the standings) at $75.1 million? Those mighty Suns?
By doc
February 9, 2009 7:46 AM | Link to this
grinch glad to see you but arguing the virtues of that trade is a very old conversation. it is like arguing the braves/glavine thing again.
we been saying that woody was doing in his team by over using certain players as well, a strong consensus by all those that dont end their comments with woody=coy. at least we know now it was to help jj get into the all star game. nothing self serving about mike woodson, no? seems to me that in itself is a backhanded slam as to maybe he doesnt deserve it unless he is posting numbers inflated by time on the court. the dude has needed a lot of time with the ball and a lot of shots to get his points. his efficiency rating to me is down. as someone said he doesnt get any easy points at the line. btw, no one buys that line by woody either or anyone with an iq north of 90.
and yes they are in the drivers seat, only a very difficult home stand, a long western road trip and self implosion stands in the way.
By Khao$
February 9, 2009 8:14 AM | Link to this
I don’t know why their isn’t more outrage over JJ’s comments. Had I known we were going to stink this bad, I’d have come in a suit? Come on! Regardless of whether he is leadership material, shy, an introvert, etc, when Billy Knight gave him that huge contract, that dragged the Spirit into the courtroom,made the ASG liken his acquistion to that of the Celtics/Larry Bird and caused many pundits to question whether his contract was justified, he knew from day one that he was being paid to be a leader. That statement he made in the paper is irresponsible and a slap in the face of his teammates. Marvin has been playing hard. Horford has been playing hard, albeit with an injury. Josh has missed free throws, but has been making plays and playing within himself. Flip and Mo have come off the bench and given us meaningful minutes. I’d make the argument that we looked better with Bibby in and Joe out then the other way around. If the Hawks played bad Saturday, JJ shares equal blame. He’s a good player. He’s made clutch shots. We need him. I’m granting him all of that. However, that statement right there is just as detrimental to this team as Josh Smith’s missed FT’s.
By hirsutedawg
February 9, 2009 9:09 AM | Link to this
Do Not even think of trading Josh or Horford. Why can’t we build around those two? What we really need is some attitude in the low post (where’s Dan Roundfield & Kevin Willis when you really need them?)
By Rufio
February 9, 2009 9:09 AM | Link to this
I, personally, am glad that the Hawks gave up those two draft picks for Joe Johnson… if anything, it saved us from more embarrassment on draft day.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 9, 2009 9:21 AM | Link to this
I kinda agree with Realist… most of the Suns’ so-called “egregious” personnel decisions were motivated by the owner’s unwillingness to go over the luxury tax level, not by winning a championship.
By JerryWest
February 9, 2009 9:23 AM | Link to this
Could we make Marvin the first option in the first quarter and JJ the first option in the fourth quarter?
By rms
February 9, 2009 9:28 AM | Link to this
OK fine, trade Mike Woodson for an 09’ second round pick and ‘10 second round pick!!
By Robert
February 9, 2009 9:48 AM | Link to this
How about getting Grey from chicago? Hes a shot altering pressence in the middle. Stodamire would be cool, Camby great! Dont break up the core to get a center…Thats why Im saying lets get Grey…dont touch(johnson,hortford,williams,smith,flip or Bibby) Any one else is trade material. Get Grey or Camby and we may represent our conference. What a team that would be. Please get rid of rock hand turnover prone no finish please give me a foul a__ ,ZaZa! Woodson has done a GREAT Job. Should have been coach of the year last year and if you get him a center he may be this year.
By Robert
February 9, 2009 9:49 AM | Link to this
How about getting Grey from chicago? Hes a shot altering pressence in the middle. Stodamire would be cool, Camby great! Dont break up the core to get a center…Thats why Im saying lets get Grey…dont touch(johnson,hortford,williams,smith,flip or Bibby) Any one else is trade material. Get Grey or Camby and we may represent our conference. What a team that would be. Please get rid of rock hand turnover prone no finish please give me a foul a__ ,ZaZa! Woodson has done a GREAT Job. Should have been coach of the year last year and if you get him a center he may be this year.
By doc
February 9, 2009 9:49 AM | Link to this
najeh, they had already offered jj 65 mil. then they came back and gave diaw 8 mil a year, a year later, financial constraint? i dont know if they werent driven by finances or arrogance on their own part. the only historical perspective there is is from folks there and in the know. that was their gm at the time, now in toronto who said they were going to match but didnt when it took on a personal quality between jj and sarver. i guess you can call him a liar and pretend to somehow have insider info, your pleasure.
on the other side we were in panic mode, needing a star like quality player at almost any cost. that seemed to drive us as much as wanting to cause a split in the franchise willingly and knowingly according to a certain member of the basg. jj was betwixt and between a whole lot of egregious behavior. if the hawks had not gotten jj they would have spent the money on major trash because a team has to meet the lowest rung. in august who would have that have been? remember, wasnt it because of the cb agreement the time to negotiate was shortened that year, was it not? we want to make it simple with one answer, it just isnt and wasnt.
it was the perfect storm, we as hawks fans have suffered from ever since, especially, arguing the merits of it to the tiny details now four years later, that if given at face value according to colangio is; they were going to over ride our offer. do we need to be that divisive. perspective or agenda?
By Robert
February 9, 2009 9:50 AM | Link to this
How about getting Grey from chicago? Hes a shot altering pressence in the middle. Stodamire would be cool, Camby great! Dont break up the core to get a center…Thats why Im saying lets get Grey…dont touch(johnson,hortford,williams,smith,flip or Bibby) Any one else is trade material. Get Grey or Camby and we may represent our conference. What a team that would be. Please get rid of rock hand turnover prone no finish please give me a foul a__ ,ZaZa! Woodson has done a GREAT Job. Should have been coach of the year last year and if you get him a center he may be this year.
By BG
February 9, 2009 9:58 AM | Link to this
Honestly, the Hawks do not need Amare. If you read anything coming out of Phoenix and watch them play consistently, he is not a guy who brings leadership and its all about him. We do not need someone who is like that. He would definitely be the wrong fit. We need to bring a character guy in who is going to throw in everything for the team, not himself. We do need another scoring threat, esp from the block but Amare is not the answer.
By BG
February 9, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this
P
By BG
February 9, 2009 10:02 AM | Link to this
One other thing, why would anyone want to trade Marvin. Open your eyes, hes our best on ball defender, and he is our second most versitile scorer. Hes gets to the line consistently and his probably our best free throw shooter. All the Marvin nay-sayers can shutup now because he a legit starter in this league. Dont trade him.
By mark
February 9, 2009 10:05 AM | Link to this
no identiy is right, we need a better coach plain and simple. if your team is so inconsisent never make in game adjustments, can’t motivate the players,substiute pattern is terrible. alot those night when the hawks come out slow which is to regular, sometimes you need a spark.could be offensive or defensive, mw don’t know which buttons to push. mario west should play at least 10 mins a night he bring that energy always, good coaches use those type of guys. and general it lead to other guys picking up the pace, especially on back to back.the hawks are so interchangeable mw just don’t see it.if just to light a spark on some nights. it really frustating being a hawk fan. go hawks
By jlewis
February 9, 2009 10:12 AM | Link to this
Sekou
The reason they want to trade Stoudemire is as follows: 1.) Micro Fracture knee surgery, his long term prognosis isn’t good, get something while you can. 2.) Does not and will not defend. 3.) Does not rebound or won’t. 4.) Bad attitude, thinks the only thing important is him being the man.
Joe is surely because he is tired of dealing with the same b.s. Josh and Marvin do not come to work every night, that’s why he plays so many minutes, and Flip will not pass that basketball, just watch the game films. You all love Bibby, but for every point he scores, he gives up the same, if he is not scoring, he is no good on the floor.
By kgbsfinst
February 9, 2009 10:19 AM | Link to this
Since were hashing up old trades…..we should have never traded Wilkins for Manning! That is ridiculous!
On a more serious note, for clarity, Camby would be a good low post defensive presence, but offensively, he is a jump shooter. Hortford goes inside more than he does. Not that I wouldn’t like him on this team, I wouldn’t be willing to give up a lot for him. Hes injury prone and is owed about $10 million.
I haven’t been able to watch a lot of games lately, but it seems like Joe’s head might our biggest concern. I hope he still wants to be a Hawk. Joe’s head could make or break this franchise (at least short term).
By Josh Childress
February 9, 2009 10:25 AM | Link to this
You cats still don’t get it…why do you think I left the ATL for Greece. Coach lost this team a long time ago and if you think trading one of my former teammates is the answer, then you are wrong. They have some solid talent on that bench (trust me), but coach won’t let them show what they got. I would love to be back with the fellas, but not until they have a new direction.
By **Sekou - What the???**
February 9, 2009 10:43 AM | Link to this
**Sekou please help me understand this quote below by our MORON COACH about JJ -
“He could have been sick and didn’t realize it because he had a lethargic look about him,” Woodson said. “So he could have been. And I was steady wearing him out and wearing him down with minutes.
“But my whole thing with the minutes and everybody talking about him playing too many, I was just trying to push for him to make that All-Star team. Because that to me, was extremely important for Joe, for our team and for our entire organization.”
You seem to like to defend Woody so can you go ahead and DEFEND THAT COMMENT for us! Please! I’d love to see it. What he’s saying is the reason he was running our star player into the ground is to MAKE SURE HE GOT IN THE ALLSTAR GAME?!?! So is that the ultimate goal regardless of the welfare of your best player? Talk about getting your priorities as a coach screwed up! Shouldn’t our goals be to WIN GAMES!?!? GET IN THE PLAYOFFS!?!? AND KEEP OUR PLAYERS HEALTHY!?!?! Sekou- your boy is killing me. Help me understand his logic in that quote.**
By ILL-logical
February 9, 2009 10:49 AM | Link to this
Let’s look at Joe’s comments from another perspective:
How many Joe Johnson charity events have there been in Atlanta these past 4 years?( See Andruw Jones or the Falcons fullback)) How many local charity events has Mr. Johnson even attended these past 4 years and how many businesses has the afore mentioned team captain and All Star selection opened in the ATL (see Chris Bridges/Tyler Perry).
Folks, he just ain’t into you that much.
Regarding the question of stratigic thinking on the part of Coach Woodson, look at the case of Andrew Bynum. The Lakers drafted him at 17 ,right out of high school: raw. But they were patient and hired Kareem to coach and develop him over time. The results are just now paying dividends, albeit the injuries.
Now the Hawks have a young guy who has size, offensive skills second to NONE of the young bigs and is only 24. But is he being developed for the future with an Antonio Davis living here in the ATL? No. And why? You have to ask Coach Woodson about that. Here is an opportunity ,with very little financial impact but with a little TLC could provide the means to put the best defensive front line on the floor ,one that could be intact for a very long time.
Hey, it is probably frustrating to work under some of the conditions that Coach Woodson has had to endure during his tenure here. Many, if not most, of the challenges have been out of his control. But there are some things he could do( like developing his young players) and frankly, I haven’t seen a lot to get excited about. Maybe it’s those flu like symtoms I’ve been having.
By Rod from College Park
February 9, 2009 11:05 AM | Link to this
All this love for Marvin amazes me. So this guy has about 6 great games in an Atlanta Hawks uniform, over a 3 year period and he is the next coming of Michael Jordan. Can we please remember that this guy was the # 2 pick in the draft. Someone actually said he is our best on ball defender. Are you kidding me. This guy can not guard anyone. Power forwards abuse him, small forwards go right by him, and guards kill him also. I will admit that he has improved a little, but being goofy is not something that you can overcome. The guy is 6’11 and falls everytime he goes to the hole. Did you not see how the kid from the Clippers (Al Thorton) eyes lit up every time he saw Marvin guarding him. This guy was a second round pick, and Marvin was the second pick in the draft, and he is a much better player than Marvin. Josh does make some bone headed plays, but let’s remember where we drafted him. I actually hope Marvin does continue to play well over the next week or so, so we can trade him and actually get something in return, because over a 3 year period, he has really not given us much at all.
By THIS IS INSANE
February 9, 2009 11:09 AM | Link to this
Coach Woodson actually said this about Joe Johnson…
This is an actual quote folks:
**“He could have been sick and didn’t realize it because he had a lethargic look about him,” Woodson said. “So he could have been. And I was steady wearing him out and wearing him down with minutes.
“But my whole thing with the minutes and everybody talking about him playing too many, I was just trying to push for him to make that All-Star team. Because that to me, was extremely important for Joe, for our team and for our entire organization.”**
By Bernie Mullin
February 9, 2009 11:13 AM | Link to this
ABANDON SHIP!!!
By Astro Joe
February 9, 2009 11:13 AM | Link to this
When does the trial start again?
I’m guessing that every team has games when they “don’t show up”. Sund gave us an indication of how he thinks this season is going when he was recently quoted as saying “we’re better than i thought we would be at this point”. Seems to me that means no imminent changes should be expected.
I agree with the notion that it would be great to add more depth… a Joe Smith type who can defend multiple positions and bury open mid-range shots. But it’s not likely happening.
By Sekou - What the??
February 9, 2009 11:14 AM | Link to this
“He could have been sick and didn’t realize it because he had a lethargic look about him,” Woodson said. “So he could have been. And I was steady wearing him out and wearing him down with minutes.
“But my whole thing with the minutes and everybody talking about him playing too many, I was just trying to push for him to make that All-Star team. Because that to me, was extremely important for Joe, for our team and for our entire organization.”
You seem to like to defend Woody so can you go ahead and DEFEND THAT COMMENT for us! Please! I’d love to see it. What he’s saying is the reason he was running our star player into the ground is to MAKE SURE HE GOT IN THE ALLSTAR GAME?!?! So is that the ultimate goal regardless of the welfare of your best player? Talk about getting your priorities as a coach screwed up! Shouldn’t our goals be to WIN GAMES!?!? GET IN THE PLAYOFFS!?!? AND KEEP OUR PLAYERS HEALTHY!?!?! Sekou- your boy is killing me. Help me understand his logic in that quote.
By KevinA
February 9, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this
Don’t trade the future for short term gains. A player’s prime is usually 27-32. JJ is just entering his prime. Marvin, ZaZa, Acie, Al, Josh and (Childress?) are 3 years from the beginning of their prime. Will Acie be the point guard of the future? We have a couple of years to decide. Until then Bibby is great short term solution. ZaZa and Al will continue to get better. I agree we need a true starting center but I would not trade either of these guys. Our future center can come from draft picks and Speedy when he comes off the books. We have a couple of years to decide on Acie and a starting center. I see no reason to make big deals at this time. 3-4 years from now is the time frame for a big push for being an elite team. This is not a race, but a process. Give these kids a few years with all the bumps and lumps that come with it. We may end up with 8 or 9 years watching a great team in the making.
By sweetestbaby
February 9, 2009 12:16 PM | Link to this
Trade Amare Stoudemire for Chris Bosh
By O'brien
February 9, 2009 12:17 PM | Link to this
Guys, let’s face it. The only reason JJ is our leader and captain is because he is our best player (and for a while, he was our highest paid player). Some people are born leaders, and some people accept the responsibility, and become leaders.
JJ is a quiet type who leads by example, but sometimes that’s not enough (especially on our team, because we are young). How many games do you see where Kobe or Lebron is constantly talking to teamates (whether that’s on the floor, or during a timeout, or on the bench)? JJ hardly talks. And that is one reason why he doesn’t get to the free throw line a lot. Not only does he shoot jump shots in the paint, but he doesnt complain to the refs. And if the game is on the line, free throws make a big difference.
Even though JJ said “we stink”, those are not the comments I want to hear from my leader. I think if Al continues to develop, he could be our leader (as evidenced by his talking to Josh and Zaza last year in the playoffs, having the team watch Ali’s fight, etc.).
By sweetestbaby
February 9, 2009 12:17 PM | Link to this
Trade Amare Stoudemire for Chris Bosh
By Sekou K. Smith
February 9, 2009 12:27 PM | Link to this
Yawn … this defender of the Woody Universe thing is getting old.
I asked the question and printed the quote you’re talking about.
By RTS
February 9, 2009 12:36 PM | Link to this
All of the JJ supporters are making me sick. What has he done that amazes you so much? He is not a leader and when his game is off he hurts this team with his lack of hustle, look at film on games he is struggling and he is lagging on the defensive end. It is amazing Marvin Williams played probably his best two games this year with JJ on the bench and a ssoon as JJ comes back Marvin goes right back to his passive self. JJ is NO Kobe/Labron and never will be, so all of those people who think he will/cn be need to wake up.
By dap01
February 9, 2009 12:41 PM | Link to this
Sekou: Thanks for the blog!
KevinA: I agree.
By darrell starks
February 9, 2009 12:41 PM | Link to this
Joe need a lo post player who CAN score maybe BOSH or AMARE i dont no . But who do you give up josh and solo and this year 1first and next year 1first or do trade horford and marvin TO GET a lo post player either or we need to do something IN ORDER FOR US TO GO TO THE next level . GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Matt = niremetal
February 9, 2009 12:56 PM | Link to this
Trial starts a week from tomorrow, and I’ll be there. Seriously - tell me what kind of recap you want me to bring y’all. What do you want me to focus on? You want to just act as a reporter, or give you a prediction on the outcome of the trial?
Lemme know.
By Mike is back
February 9, 2009 1:08 PM | Link to this
Personally I think JJ is taking his frustration with Woody poorly conceive offense out on his teammates. I think he’s probably not overjoyed with Mo comments either. JJ should be galvanizing his team and pulling everyone together, not taking swipes at them in the media. Joe started to show signs wear and tear early in the season, and he has continued to look lethargic whenever he’s on the floor. I was sincerely hoping that JJ would wait until after the All-Star break to come back.
The most cost effective move for the Hawks is to bring Marvin off the bench, to create minutes to develop our young Bigs. By playoff time these guys will be ready to contribute. Lets face it, these guys ain’t world beater, but they can get us through this season, and Marvin will defer to JJ and Bibby as long as they are on the floor, putting him on the second unit will allow Marvin to be the first option. Plus you could go to a three man rotation at the pivot. Zaza, Solomon, and Morris. Al goes to his natural spot the 4, and Smoove to the 3. You can easily interchange Flip and Mo on this scenario, and their still minutes for Acie. Oooops, my bad what second unit. heh heh
I would also send either Gardner or Hunter to the DLeague, and bring in and old school lunch bucket guy like Dale Davis if he’s available. Better to bring in a serviceable vet that can bang, than to let these kids rot on the pine. Send to the DLeague so they can continue to develop. I was mentioning Jamal Magliore name all summer long, now he seems to be working out fine in Miami. GO FIGURE!!!!
I would resist temptation to make a knee jerk move. Even with Amare, you’re still going to need a Big that can bang to advance pass the second round in the Playoff. He would have to waive his opt out clause for me to even consider that gamble.
By terrell barron
February 9, 2009 1:10 PM | Link to this
JJ needs to shut up and play ball. Those guys played well, and hard, without his azz. And now he wants to throw them under the bus? Wow! What a leader!! We missed Bibby against the Clippers, but were fine in the previous 2 games. Which were on the road, may I add. Hmmm??? Maybe they should throw Joe under the bus!!
By Sekou - What the??
February 9, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
So may I ask your opinion on the quote then?
Or is that out of bounds?
By terrell barron
February 9, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
And btw, to be completely honest, I’m about to the point where I’d listen to offers if another team made a run at JJ.
By bigdave
February 9, 2009 1:18 PM | Link to this
glad you caught my drift Ray from the last blog…
the Joe comment doesn’t bother me… its not like he isolated himself from the performance… whats the problem? its not like he was the healthiest, and could have well been in a suit… *this isn’t a Gilbert Arenas like comment people… who after resigning for major GUAP. when asked about his return he mentions the Wizards record and asks, “would you?” *
I still think even with poorest of coaching, the Hawks could be a seed or 2 better with legitimate and consistent production in the painted area…
By Clyde
February 9, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
My boy Robert said it all for me. He said:
Everyone and his mother knows that the problem with the hawk is the center position. Paschula has hands like rock and every time he gets the ball in the low post he loses control and begs for a foul. He STINKS! He makes a lot of turnovers and can not finish. He reminds me of Koncak. Except Koncak was better. Whenever the hawks play a team with a Good center they lose. Period!! you cant win in the NBA without a center. Hortford is a power foward filling the spot because 7ft Paschula cant. I love the Hawks but They will never compete for the crown without a center. Everybody knows that. We need a center to intimidate in the middle not wont to fumble the ball as Paschula almost always does.What a joke.
I’m not giving this issue up Ray. If people aren’t doing thier jobs they should be called out. The only thing your doing is sucking up. Just like the Hawks’ frontline your becoming more soft by the day.
FIRE WOODY
By terrell barron
February 9, 2009 1:31 PM | Link to this
Rod from College Park, Al Thornton was not a 2nd rd. pick. I repeat, was not a 2nd rd. pick. He was the 14th pick overall. Come on now.
By cp
February 9, 2009 1:37 PM | Link to this
terrell honestly I was thinking the same thing. JJ has been throwing people under the bus the past few seasons. Instead of getting on a guy who he feels is not giving their all on the court he whines and complains through the media…Instead of talking to guys on the court making sure they are doing what they should be doing he just walks off the court and sits down and says nothing. I forgot what offseason it was but JJ damn near threw the whole team under the bus and I said then sit him down and see if he wants to be here and if he does not send him off. I rather have guys on this team who want to be here and are giving their all than guys who are just going through the motions. I like JJ as a player but I’m sick of the complaining and b***. He gets a pass around here far too often. If it was Josh Smith who made those same comments guys on here would want him traded to Siberia.
By Astro Joe
February 9, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this
Matt = niremetal, the answer is “all of the above”. I’ll gladly take just the facts from the perspective of a reporter as well as your opinion. Here’s an immediate question for you… assuming the losing side chooses to appeal whatever decision is rendered, what would be the next step? I’m not pretending to understand the heierarchy of our judicial system, especially when it pertains to civil matters. Thanks!
By bigdave
February 9, 2009 1:54 PM | Link to this
thats why he can say those things, because he is our guy… i mean he has earned the right to comment…
i think people are looking into it way too much…
By Daniel
February 9, 2009 2:04 PM | Link to this
Everyone on the team deserves to be thrown under the bus for last night’s game. Joe and Woodson included. The fact that Mo publicy stated that this team does not give its full effort every night is a real indictment of this team (and it is true). This team has not won enough to coast. We still are in position to win 50 games this season despite the erratic play and injuries. They have the whole second half to turn this thing around.
As far as Stoudemire goes, he is obviously really talented but it is an unrealistic trade scenario. Plus, he is a defensive liability. I would only trade are young talent for Bosch. On a more reasonable move… What about picking up Diop? He could really feel a need for us on the bench defensively and affordable. What do you think?
By The Grinch
February 9, 2009 2:06 PM | Link to this
Howdy, Doc! You know me; I’ll be glad to bring up the Braves/Glavine thing again. In fact, I have a new spin on it.
Woody seems like a good man; don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think he’s a motivator or a developer of young talent, and those are the two biggest qualities in a coach this team needs.
By Sautee
February 9, 2009 2:13 PM | Link to this
By Sekou - What the??
February 9, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
“So may I ask your opinion on the quote then?”
“Or is that out of bounds?”
Did you even read the blog? His reaction is right there!!!!!
Stop trying to stir up $hit where there isn’t any.
By KevinA
February 9, 2009 2:13 PM | Link to this
Why not try flipping Josh and Al. I think they would both be more comfortable posting up from the other side. Acie, Flip and JJ do not move the ball fast enough and early enough in the shot clock to get the ball rotation and make it happen naturaly. Why not sit JJ the entire first quarter. That way Woody could not abuse his minutes.
By Rod from College Park
February 9, 2009 2:20 PM | Link to this
Terrell Barron,
You might be exactly right about the draft position, but answer this question for me. IS MARVIN WILLAMS BETTER THAN AL THORNTON? HOW ABOUT DANNY GRANGER? HOW ABOUT RUDY GAY? HOW ABOUT JOSH HOWARD? HOW ABOUT TASHAUN PRINCE? HOW ABOUT IGUODALA? HOW ABOUT DURANT? The point is he was drafted higher or the same position as all of these players, and his game is not comparable to any of them. Would you rather Marvin Williams are any of the guys listed above?
By bigdave
February 9, 2009 2:50 PM | Link to this
Kevin A, though i wouldnt support sitting Joe the entire 1st qrt. i have pondered allowing Josh to play at the 5… i think it could actually help us on both ends of the floor… my only concern is, im sure Josh could hold his own against todays NBA of offensively challenged centers but im not sure if Al could guard these perimeter gifted pf’s consistently without getting in foul trouble.. all in all i think Al is suited best at center…
By Dan
February 9, 2009 3:09 PM | Link to this
Realist
What are you talking about? That is one of the most absurd take on the Joe Johnson trade I have ever heard. Exactly how did that work out in the Suns favor? Bori Diaw does not even play for them and I’m willing to bet you would have trouble nameing the players they got with the Hawks picks. C’mon…..Hawks got the best of that deal. The Suns have been trying to replace Joe for years.
So, I have to admit, I would give serious thought to trade offer Smith for Stoudemire. My only problem with Stoudemire is that he can’t stay healthy. He seems to be always hurt.
By Mike is back
February 9, 2009 3:25 PM | Link to this
Bigdave, to a man, I’m willing bet if you asked any player on the Hawks squad their feeling on this issue. They would say it’s better handle issues like this in the locker room. I Applaud guys for facing the media after a tough loss, but calling guys out, usually leads to apathy and dissension among your teammates.
As bad as things may seem right now, it could be whole lot worst, that’s the thing JJ has to realized when he is talking to the media. Al is just coming back from injury, so it’s going to take some time for him to regain his form, Josh is not there yet, and now you lose Bibby. Guy’s have stepped up their absent. Joe is probably more disappointed in his own performance, and he’s starting to get frustrated with the whole situation. The thing best for JJ to do to help this team is to get some rest, chill out on the comments, and move on.
I doubt if Woody was alone in his desire for JJ to make the All-Star team. I’m sure Sund and ASG had ulterior motives too. We have only talk about Woody over playing your starters for like A KA GILLION TIMES. Clearly, management had to be aware of the minutes the starters were logging, unless they have been living cave.
By doc
February 9, 2009 3:26 PM | Link to this
grinch rofl. i thought it would get your attention.
good to have you around and i agree wholeheartedly that woody is a good man and maybe even a good coach, just not great. the owners are going to have to make a decision soon on whether they want a guy still learning to ride his horses or have a jockey with a proven record that costs more. it is their money but their amount on the line is more than it was when they hired him. as for woody i said it in a recent post it may not click until he gets away and looks at how he handled things much like cox did when he came up roses in toronto.
dan realist is having a hard time being relevant much less the realist on that one. i suspect an agenda that we dont know about other than bball.
By Lamar
February 9, 2009 3:32 PM | Link to this
Its funny how other teams can put trade packages together but every year it is “impossible” for the Hawks to do. Winning franchises like the Lakers, Celtics and Heat can make moves which seem to be impossible by the pundits but somehow they get it done. Let’s just face it. We can’t make a move because our owners have no money.
By Ken Strickland
February 9, 2009 3:56 PM | Link to this
It seems to me JJ would be a much better ROBIN than BATMAN. To put it another way, he would be more comfortable, and effective, playing the Pippin role than the MJ role. He’s actually admitted he didn’t know what he was getting himself into when he agreed to come to the Hawks and be the team leader. Also, having a HC that believes in riding the back of his team leader until he starts breaking down certainly hasn’t helped.
JJ is more of an outside scorer, and even when he takes it to the basket, he usually shoots a runner rather than taking all of the way to the hoop. That’s why he doesn’t get to the foul line as often as he should. Marvin actually presents more problems for a DEF than JJ. When JJ’s shot is off, he, like Bibby, just isn’t very effective. Marvin goes to the hole so hard, and has become such an effective finisher, he draws tons of fouls.
Marvin Williams is the guy our OFF should be featuring. The type of OFF gm he has developed this yr would make both Bibby and JJ much more effective. When Marvin squares up and starts to drive, DEF’s have to collapse, and he has become a very good passer. I’ve noticed Zaza has very quick feet and plays good deny DEF. However, he doesn’t play good help DEF, he’s a poor finisher under the basket and commits most of his turnovers trying to score inside. That’s where Solo has the advantage over him. Solo has good hands, goes up hard, and finishes strong around the basket.
I’ve said this before. HOW CAN A SO CALLED DEF MINDED HC CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HIS TEAM NOT PLAYING DEF, YET HE CONTINUES TO GIVE MAJOR MINS TO 2 OF HIS LEAST EFFECTIVE DEF PLAYERS(BIBBY AND ZAZA), EVEN WHEN DEF IS WHAT’S NEEDED AT THE TIME? THE ODD THING IS, THE 2 PLAYERS HE CHOSES TO KEEP ANCHORED TO THE BENCH ARE HIS BEST DEF PLAYERS AT THEIR RESPECTIVE POSITIONS COMING OFF THE BENCH.
The Hawks would be a very effective team if they utilized the 2 platoon system. The 1st team would play the 1st and 3rd qtrs and the 2nd team would play the 2nd qtr. Who plays the 4th qtr would depend on the situation at the beginning of the qtr. This would reduce the heavy mins on our starters, offer better utilization of our bench, give more consistent mins to our younger players, and Woodson would still not have to manage players mins. Everyone could give maximum effort from teh opening tipoff, without feeling the need to pace themselves to conserve energy for the 4th qtr, like most of our starters seem to be doing.
WE COULD DEFINITELY BECOME A MUCH BETTER AND MORE CONSISTENT TEAM, WITH THE TALENT WE CURRENTLY HAVE, IF WE HAD BETTER COACHING AND ALL PLAYERS WERE TREATED FAIRLY, RESPECTFULLY AND EVEN HANDEDLY.
By bigdave
February 9, 2009 4:08 PM | Link to this
what did he say that was so damning..? he including himself… maybe he is implying he didnt think he was helping the team any…maybe there would have been better off playing without him? less differing to Joe if he was in a suit… why does everyone wanna make Joe a selfish Pre Madonna now??
b/c lord knows in our schemes we need a 100% Joe…
By Mike is back
February 9, 2009 4:34 PM | Link to this
Doc, I agree your comment on Woody. Save for losing 174 mil, I would think that the AGS would be mulling over that very issue. Woody appears to have peak in terms of his coaching ability. Unfortunately, ASG is too cash strap to make any bold moves.
By Mike is back
February 9, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
Doc, I agree your comment on Woody. Save for losing 174 mil, I would think that the AGS would be mulling over that very issue. Woody appears to have peak in terms of his coaching ability. Unfortunately, ASG is too cash strap to make any bold moves.
By Astro Joe
February 9, 2009 4:43 PM | Link to this
The other thing to keep in mind for all those calling for Woody’s head, is that he has a guaranteed contract for the next year-and-a-half. So you also have to determine how willing will the owners be to continue to pay Woody and pay the next guy (who will certainly demand a higher salary). That’s one of the reasons I’m so very interested in the trial that starts next week. This team is in a virtual stand-still until the long-term owners are determined AND new partner(s) are approved by the NBA (I’m assuming that the winner will need some help to continue to run the franchise, unless they have someone ready to take the Thrashers off their hands).
By O'brien
February 9, 2009 4:49 PM | Link to this
Rod from College Park
Marvin is starting to show glimpses of his potential, but he needs to be more consistent. And I admit that I would take some of the guys on your list over Marvin. However, we must take into account the “Woody Effect”. If Rudy Gay or Granger was playing here, how effective would they be?
1) Woody would have them deferring to JJ all the time 2) Even if they are playing well with the hot hand, Woody would still sub for them 3) And if he does leave them in the game, he would never allow them any room in the offense to blossom 4) Imagine Woody’s reaction when they throw up some ill advised shots?
If BWAF looks could kill…
By #21=Top 50,1stBallot
February 9, 2009 4:51 PM | Link to this
Ken,
As I have in the past, I have to disagree with a couple of the assertions you have made above. The largest critique of Duck, at least from my vantage, has been not the he lacks game or that he hasnt been improving, it’s that he doesn’t have the temperment to be a #1 player. His attitude belies his talent. This sounds like a similar label that’s been afixed to Joe of late. One could at least argue that Joe has a gunner’s mentality even if not a leader’s disposition. Duck defers too much, be it by dint of “offensive scheme” or just lack of comfort taking the shots. If that’s the case I’d still much rather stick with Joe. Joe has a much better face up game, post up game, jumper and 3pt. Not only that he creates off the drive- why do you think Duck is open so much on the wing? Duck does draw contact better than Joe but Joe is much better scoring in traffic so it’s give/take. Were Duck to actually step up in a game when we’re at full strength, then your argument becomes more plausible.
RISE UP
By Ariose
February 9, 2009 4:52 PM | Link to this
I think Y’all are overreacting to JJ’s comments. If I was in his position and we just gout out tails handed to us by the Clippers I would’ve said the same damn thing.
If you guys were in some random gym with the fellas ad that comment was made after you guys just lost a pickup game you wouldn’t even think twice about it. In fact, you would probably either laugh or agree.
In conclusion, Stop trippin’ the man just got over the flu, and this is JJ we’re talking about here. He was probably STILL really under the weather and just not letting on how bad he feels. Give the guy a break.
~Sir Links A Lot~
By Astro Joe
February 9, 2009 5:07 PM | Link to this
Is it just me or has there been an unusual amount of big name players shut down by injury this season? Al Jefferson is gone, Arenas never got started, Brand is out, Bynum done, Redd finished, Ellis missed the first half and Speedy still has a hamstring pull (sorry, I couldn’t resist).
By newkid
February 9, 2009 5:19 PM | Link to this
Wow, we leave Stuckey on the board and select Acie in the 11 hole. Stuckey, going several slots later, steps in behind Billups and is provided ample court time in his rookie campaign to showcase his skills. The result: early in just his second season Stuckey’s progress renders an NBA Finals MVP such as Billups expendable. Meanwhile Acie continues to toils in confusion on the pine. There can be but two conclusions; either we’re terrible at assessing young point guard talent (e.g., Paul, Williams, Stuckey, Rondo), or we’re terrible as nurturing that talent once it’s in-house. Could it perhaps be both?
By SB
February 9, 2009 5:50 PM | Link to this
The Hawks offense needs more plays. I disagree about Marvin, he has improved but JJ and Josh are still far better players. Smith needs more touches in the post. I’ve said that since last year. We need a center but we also need a point that can change the tempo. No knock on Bibby, but a quicker point gaurd to come in of the bench and create would cure some of this teams offensive problems. If we’re not going to play AC get him outa here and get Conley jr or some one who can.
By kiringa
February 9, 2009 5:52 PM | Link to this
Any complete assessment of the last game cannot be done without mentioning the absence of Bibby. I’m sorry, but he isa difference maker as others have mentioned, and those who want to point to last year when he wasn’t healthy to make points are not being completely honest.
The Hawk have had each starter now miss at least one game. They have looked the worst when missing Bibby. Granted it is a one game sample, but still that is how things have gone down.
Why is it no one is mentioning that the Hawks have lost the bulk of their games missing at least one key player? That scout Sekou alluded to was correct, when they are all healthy they are fine, not perfect, but they play very well.
If the Hawks didn’t suffer these key injuries(Smith, then Horford, the JJ) their record would be much better, but I doubt they would be any higher than 4th place. So to me, they are where they’re supposed to be at this point in their maturation.
Go Hawks!!
Well looks like no Amare. I wouldn’t trade Horford.
By ILL-logical
February 9, 2009 5:57 PM | Link to this
Joe Johnson is beginning to look and sound like Tracy McGrady. Not good.
By Mitun Patel
February 9, 2009 6:41 PM | Link to this
I would get Amare Stoudamire simply because we create that 1-2 punch with him, JJ, and Bibby but the problem is that we got Smith for 5 years and you know Amare would be asking for alot of money whenever he becomes a free agent even if we get him.
here is what we need, of course we need a big man which Camby or Bosh would be good and certainly we need to add more depth off the bench but keep Flip and Mo.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 9, 2009 6:41 PM | Link to this
So it appears it only takes one questionable comment and one subpar month for the local faithful to turn on the resident All-Star.
I’ll be the first one to say that Joe Johnson hasn’t produced up to par over the last month. There have been games when he’s played poorly, games when Josh Smith has played poorly, games when the bench hasn’t performed, games when Marvin or Bibby has disappeared. But the common thread in nearly every game the Hawks have played this year is the predictable and unimaginative offensive coaching. Until Woody either gets replaced or hires an offensive coordinator (whatever the NBA equivalent is) who will install a scheme that shares the ball equally among all five players and doesn’t rely on jumpshots to sustain scoring, this team will be inconsistent.
By terrell barron
February 9, 2009 6:45 PM | Link to this
Rod from College Park, are any of those players better than Josh Smith? They were all drafted ahead of him. What I’m getting at is, Your draft position means absolutely nothing. Kobe was picked 12th for crying out loud. Do you think any of the players picked before him are better? Think about it. And btw, Bogut went #1 that year. Is he better than Paul or Williams, who went 3 and 4? Come on now.
By Ken Strickland
February 9, 2009 7:04 PM | Link to this
BY#21=TOP50-saying one has to have a certain temperment to be a #1 player is like saying it takes a certain temperment to be a successful HC. That’s Woodson problem, and the reason for him thinking he has to dominate his players, especially his younger players. That mentality has been drilled into him by his 2 mentors.
Against Charlotte, Marvin had an excellent gm and actually dominated, not because of his temperment changed, but because Woodson directed his players to go to, or feature Marvin. Woodson made the same decision last yr in Seattle, Marvins hometown and he dominated that gm as well, and in the same way. If Woodson did that on a nightly basis, Marvin would come close to duplicating those performances on a nightly basis. Why would you expect more consistency from Marvin, who’s the teams #4 option, and not expect more consistency from JJ, Bibby and Smoove, our #1, 2 and 3 options? The fact is, our 2 most consistent starters all season have been our #4 and #5 options(Marvin and Horford).
Remember, this is the same Marvin Williams that many Hawk fans, last yr, said couldn’t rebound, shoot the 3pt shot, play DEF or drive to the basket without falling down. Any player that worked as hard as he obviously did this off season, and improved as much as he has both skill and maturity wise, has the temperment, talent and ability to be a #1 option. He doesn’t have the temperment to demand that the HC make him the #1 option, but he has the temperment to be successful if the HC makes the decision to give him that responsibility.
JJ has greater shooting range, not accuracy, and he’s a better passer and ballhankler, but that’s about the only OFF advantage he has over Marvin right now. Marvin has room for improvement, while JJ has reached his max potential. If Marvin works as hard next off season to improve his weaknesses, especially his ballhandling, as he did last off season, he can definitely be a more effective #1 option than JJ. Marvin puts more pressure on a teams DEF because he gets defenders in foul trouble trying to stop him from going to the basket. JJ hasn’t shown the ability to do that. It’s not a knock on JJ, just 2 different players with different gms.
JJ and Bibby are deadly open jump shooters and Marvin can create opportunities for them, while putting pressure on the opponents interior DEF. Run the OFF through Marvin and watch our OFF improve.
By Harry Hawk
February 9, 2009 7:24 PM | Link to this
So…Woody admits that Acie’s rusty, eh?
I’m absolutely shocked that a second-year player who’s getting, oh, about ten minutes a game (he ain’t playing that much every night, as we all know) isn’t ready to play 30 minutes in a game. I’m so surprised that he has no rhythm or feel for the starters that he never plays with.
Bottom line: Acie has to play more. That’s the only way he’ll be ready to step in and give the team his best effort when he’s called upon to do more.
(Then again, everyone with a brain here has known this for months. You’d think Woody would have been able to see this coming. Acie’s comments express exactly what you think a guy in his situation would be thinking. I just hope he gets the chance to play consistently now. Bibby isn’t getting any younger. He needs more rest.)
By doc
February 9, 2009 7:37 PM | Link to this
newk you forgot roy on your list of overlooked superstars at the point position in the last four years.
By newkid
February 9, 2009 9:32 PM | Link to this
Thanks doc, I thought of Roy but wanted to give the scouting department the benefit of the doubt since many consider him a 2 guard. Not to be a BK basher (we can agree he was correct in a few instances), but it does appear that as the time since his departure becomes greater, his personnel gaffes become more glaring. And those bad decisions are killing us.
Isn’t hindsight wonderful?
By Fritz
February 9, 2009 9:35 PM | Link to this
Don’t look now, but the Bobcats just beat the Clippers by 21 at home. Bobcats are playing with injuries too.
What’s Larry Brown got that Woody doesn’t?
By O'brien
February 9, 2009 9:51 PM | Link to this
Harry Hawk, Woody strikes again.
“Listen, I came into this season and I told everybody that nobody’s minutes are guaranteed,” Woodson said. “What minutes you get, you make the most of them. But you better be ready to play. Because you just never know when you’re going to be called upon. And that’s any team, I don’t care who it is. You just can’t play 12 guys consistently.”
Woody! Nobody is expecting you to play 12 guys consistently. All we’re saying is depending on the matchups, and depending on how the starters are playing, give the bench a chance.
* “But I can’t start two point guards. So at the end of the day, there really is no excuse. Acie was rusty. It happens. The bottom line is he has to be ready.”*
Woody makes it sound like it’s Acie’s fault. Talk is cheap Woody.
By ray
February 9, 2009 9:56 PM | Link to this
A brain.
By doc
February 9, 2009 10:02 PM | Link to this
newk agree only roy is a guy who can dribble and pass the ball as well as score and played the one in college. maybe playmaker is a better term. as much a jj has the ball in his hands is he really a two or a one? maybe a point two guard like the point forwards we have referred to in the past. the distinctions are becoming harder and harder to determine. roy tends to fit that category as does d. wade and jj whereas some true two’s arent able to handle the ball as well and want to have it served up to them ala the true shooting two guard.
still think that bk had his hands tied and had to make do up until last year when he got bibby and boosted the pay roll. the mandate was to get a big in the draft with the five and that is who they chose. unfortunately, it was an awful year to be picking for a big even that early in the draft. luck is huge, too, instead of speedy having a break out year he had a break down year. selah.
By igotxx3
February 9, 2009 10:28 PM | Link to this
Theres no way Amare Stoudemire comes here in a tarde. He cleary wants the suns to be his team, so if he comes to atlanta he would want the hawks to be his team, but clearly this is joe johnson team. as for acie law I think we should trade him. only time acie plays good is if the hawks are losing bad or if the hawks are up by alot. other then that he doesnt play well. he just passes the ball around but never drives it. I said before I like farmar on the lakers, a guy that is agressive driving the ball to the hole. Lakers probably would trade him since they are trying to clear space to re-sign lamar odom. so i would trade acie law and a 2nd round pick for farmar, maybe even a 1st round pick instead of a 2nd round pick.
By ray
February 9, 2009 10:37 PM | Link to this
Clyde,
Soft, eh? Okay, you asked for it…
I never said the Hawks could win it all without a true center. I have screamed as loud and as longly as you (actually MORE) that Horford is not a center, and that we need a true center. The only exception I made was that we could do fine with another big power forward to play alongside him. But it would have to be a guy whose skill set complimented Horford’s. For crying out loud, have you read NOTHING I’ve EVER written prior to this one argument???
You are talking up an argument that doesn’t even exist between us. And you’re talking about one damn game. So which Clippers super center was it that beat us in this last game, eh? Marcus Camby with a world-record 16 points and 7 rebounds? Wow, that really killed us. And how would you explain us beating the Clips earlier this season by 17 points? Oh yes, they had their center in the game then, too. I’ll tell you what the difference was: Zach Randolph. News flash…..he’s not a center either.
Beware of statements like this:
Whenever the Hawks play a team with a good center they lose. Period!!!
Then explain to me, genius, how we beat the Rockets, who had Yao Ming in the game (January 3rd)? How did we beat Detroit with Rasheed Wallace (December 21st)? Philly had Dalembert and Brand when we beat them on November 1st. New Orleans had Tyson Chandler when we spanked them on November 5th. We beat Minnesota just days ago, playing against Al Jefferson. Charlotte trotted out Diop and Okafor against us right afterwards. We won that one, too. We even beat Orlando early on in the season with Dwight Howard in the game.
You wanna try this again? Fact is, we’ve lost about as many games to teams without “good” centers as we have against teams WITH good centers.
And then there’s this:
You can’t win in the NBA without a center.
Okay, then explain to me how 29-21 is not a winning record. Better yet, when we end the season above .500 (and I believe we will), “without a center”, then you can re-explain your guarantee to me.
Lastly, let me tell you a thing or two about “sucking up”, as you put it. I like Horford and Zaza for what they are. And they are doing the best they can with what they’ve got, with Horford not being back to full health or game shape.
At least I’m not sucking up to a sucky-a$$ Sean Williams who can’t suck up enough minutes to stay in the league. The only reason why he is even back in the NBA is because the D-League found out that his attitude sucks even worse than his sucky-a$$ game, which sucks like Monica Lewinsky on steroids. Put that in your pipe and suck it…while I suck down another shot of Vodka and wait for your response. I got another fifth. Let’s get it on.
By EL RETARDO
February 9, 2009 10:55 PM | Link to this
“In Acie’s defense, he hasn’t played and he’s not running the first team on a regular basis,” Woodson said. “But I can’t start two point guards. So at the end of the day, there really is no excuse. Acie was rusty. It happens. The bottom line is he has to be ready.”
WTF??! There is really no excuse for whom? The severely retarded coach or the player?
“You just can’t play 12 guys consistently.”
Nobody asked you to do that, you bald moron. NOBODY!! Who the in the dickens ever said 12?? WTF?! YOU kept saying you wanted to play 9 or 10 guys, and you don’t do that either.
“Listen, I came into this season and told everybody, nobody’s minutes are guaranteed.”
“Except you, Joe. You’re 45 minutes a game are guaranteed, cause you is my b!tch.”
“What he can’t do is worry about how Mike does thing and how Mike runs the team. Acie has to do it his own way when he’s out there, because we have to establish some kind of flow and continuity when Acie is on the floor and roll with that. And that’s where we come in as his teammates. We’ve got to make sure he knows we’re rolling with him when he’s out there.”
WAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Tell me another one, that was great! Im goin bust a gut laughing at jokes like that!!!!!
By cp
February 9, 2009 11:07 PM | Link to this
I really wish people would stop interviewing Woodson. The guy is a clown.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 9, 2009 11:56 PM | Link to this
The Detroit Pistons won an NBA Championship in 2004 with a 6’8” undersized power forward with no offensive game whatsoever playing center and guarding Shaquille O’Neal in the NBA Finals.
Case closed.
By Joe
February 10, 2009 12:38 AM | Link to this
The best deal is:
Hawks Get: Amare Stoudemire
Suns Get: Marvin Williams, Acie Law III, 2nd round draft pick.
The Hawks starting lineup will look like this.
PG - Mike Bibby SG - Joe Johnson SF - Josh Smith PF - Amare Stoudemire C - Al Horford
By Clyde
February 10, 2009 2:34 AM | Link to this
Ray
“I have screamed as loud and as longly as you (actually MORE) that Horford is not a center, and that we need a true center.”
So why the hell did we draft him if we needed a center and Horford is not a center? And why the hell does he start at center for us if he isn’t a center?
My point is Horford is not doing the job at center so we need to do something about it. It seemed to me like you think he’s doing fine at the position and everythings all good.
But it ain’t. You gave me 6 wins in which the Hawks won playing against a dominate center. I can list you 10 in which the Hawks got flat out dominated against a true center or a big frontline.
What you need to do is admit there is a problem and look for solutions to solve it. I’m sorry but as long Smooth and Horford are on the same team together Horford is going to start at center. And that’s the problem because he has proven he can’t handle it on the defensive end.
And Sean Williams has the skill to be a great player but his mind is messed up. Horford has the mind but his skills are messed up. So I guess they are even. lol
FIRE WOODY
By terrell barron
February 10, 2009 5:35 AM | Link to this
Hey guys, dont look now, but only 3 games seperate the 4th thru the 7th seed. And Joe, Josh Smith is not a sf. Might be better off dealing Smoove, but it’s nearly impossible. That’s why we’ll more than likely stay the course. If we could make a deal, I think a lineup of Bibby, JJ, Marvin, Amare, and Horford would be better though. Not saying I like Marvin better than Josh, I just like him better as a sf.
By Realist
February 10, 2009 8:53 AM | Link to this
No agenda here. I deal in facts, not emotion. Fact is the Suns have won over 50 games for 3 straight years, and the Hawks only dream of getting there. Fact is the Suns current record, which Sekou mocks, is the virtual equivalent of the Hawks current record. Fact is, Johnson is a very good player, and the Hawks gave up TWO first-round picks plus a starter to get him. Fact is, he was a restricted free agent, not a player under contract who required a trade of that magnitude. Fact is, Johnson made the Hawks better, but they are not a legimate contender, and without those two #1 picks, they’ve found it hard to get anywhere near being one. These are facts, not opinions or agendas. Perspective means looking at the Suns and Hawks and admitting that they have virtually the same record (29-21 vs. 28-22). Mock the Suns all you want, but they are the Hawks’ peer right now.
By Sautee
February 10, 2009 8:54 AM | Link to this
Clyde
About this: “And Sean Williams has the skill to be a great player but his mind is messed up. Horford has the mind but his skills are messed up. So I guess they are even. lol”
Yeah, Clyde, except for the fact that Horford STARTS for a 29-21 team, and Sean sits and dreams of that next doobie.
Other than THAT, they are even. Yeah, buddy. heh heh.
Oh, and the league must think Horford’s skills are decent if they invited him to the Rookie / Soph game.
But that’s probably another sign of the decline of talent, as you said, right?
Oh, and one more thing. Your “conditioning” as an Alabama fan that “always” expects to compete for a Championship must be DECADES OLD by now. And did they EVER compete in Basketball? I remember some good teams with Spree and Horry, but, *How many Final Fours again? *
That’s what I thought.
By Melvin
February 10, 2009 9:41 AM | Link to this
Sautee, reading your comments here and on the Hack. Looks like you are out for blood….heh,heh
By Rod from College Park
February 10, 2009 9:55 AM | Link to this
Terrell Barron,
While I see you point, I don’t agree. Your draft position does matter. It really matters when you are drafted in the top three. You also have to factor in age, and position. Bogut was drafted #1 because he is a center, and a center’s value is considered higher. I don’t make the rules, that is just the way it is. Kobe was drafted so low because he came straight from high school, was 18 years old and had not played against college level competition. Some of the players I listed are better than Josh, some are not, but all are better than Marvin.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 10, 2009 10:00 AM | Link to this
Not living up to your draft position is a reflection on the general manager who made the pick, not the player who got picked in that position.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 10, 2009 10:02 AM | Link to this
I agree with terrell… if the Hawks acquire Amare without giving up Horford, Marvin would be the better fit at small forward than Josh, although I think Josh is the better player.
By ILL-logical
February 10, 2009 10:08 AM | Link to this
According to today’s dead tree edition of the ajc, Bibby may play/start tonight against the Wizards. Why risk further injury and playoff potential now? The stat line for Acie was not bad; and he clearly was not the reason for the loss, so the question becomes : what is Coach Woodson thinking?
By fudd21
February 10, 2009 10:20 AM | Link to this
Someone please help me out with this and I’m sorry for going way back. Realist just talked about the 2 first round picks we gave up for Joe. Yes, I remember that being part of the deal, but I also thought only 1 was guaranteed and the other was condidtional and we didn’t meet that condition. When I look back at our drafts since that trade we have had our first round pick every year since that trade except this past year. So someone please tell where is the 2nd first round pick.
PS Diaw would have never started for us.
By darrell starks
February 10, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
SEKOU WHAT WRONG WITH WOODY ITS NOT ACIE ITS THE COACH HOW CAN YOU PERFORM LIKE YOU WANT HIM TO AND YOU NEVER PLAY HIM. IF YOUR A COACH AND YOU NO HIS STRENGTH IS TO DRIVE TO THE BASKET AND BE MORE AGRESSIVE ISNT THAT THE COACH RESPONSIBILTY TO DEVELOP HIM IN TO THAT PLAYER. GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By jhan
February 10, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
ILL - that is the $1M question. At this point I don’t think anyone has a clue what Woody is thinking.
Woody - sit your a$$ on the bench all season, but when I do put you in you better play like a veteran who’s been averaging 25 minutes per game.
What a complete idiot!!
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 10, 2009 10:33 AM | Link to this
“When I look back at our drafts since that trade we have had our first round pick every year since that trade except this past year. So someone please tell where is the 2nd first round pick.”
The first first-rounder we gave the Suns was traded to the Celtics on draft day in 2006 and used on Rajon Rondo. It was originally Boston’s pick but it came to the Hawks in the Gary Payton trade. The second one was used last year on Robin Lopez.
By Najeh Davenpoop
February 10, 2009 10:37 AM | Link to this
“what is Coach Woodson thinking?”
Is he thinking?
By fudd21
February 10, 2009 10:44 AM | Link to this
Thanks Najeh. I was aware of last year with Lopez but I had totally forgotten about the deal with Payton.
By doc
February 10, 2009 10:52 AM | Link to this
realist the facts are the suns are no better off without jj as they were with him. the fact is as i said the other day two words as the reason the suns do so well, STEVE NASH. simple answer to your question, same players with him won less than 30 then they went on a tear with him.HE IS THE ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR. the suns blew it and we needed something however we got it and the fact is WE WERE DESPERATE. simple stuff. the draft picks by us were not given up until three years later, another fact so the “loss” didnt affect us until this past year. nothing real about your arguments as they dont make much sense to where we are. all the suns had to do was to match which colangio said they would … fact or are you continuing to ignore fact.
funny they are peers now where they werent four years ago.somebody must be headed in the wrong direction or right, which one is it?
By cp
February 10, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
Woodson is a joke.. If Bibby is hurt and Joe is still sick let them sit in their suits next to Craig Claxton. No need to keep riding your main guys if they are not 100%.
By JerryWest
February 10, 2009 11:08 AM | Link to this
its time to make Marvin the first option and JJ the second option. JJ is much better than Marvin, but the team will function much better if Marvin’s penetration gets a higher priority.
By KevinA
February 10, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this
Woody dosen’t seem to like the pick and roll for Marvin, Josh, Al and ZaZa. By the time Bibby gets the ball to JJ and he iso dribbles, If he dosen’t shoot or drive, to much time has run off the clock. I would prefer three or four passes early in the clock to move the defense and get better opportunities to drive for these guys. If we kick at this point who would be better than jj or Bibby to then shoot at this point. Our current system wastes to much time setting up and often times to little clock left after jj iso’s
By Sautee
February 10, 2009 7:36 PM | Link to this
new blog up
By Andrew
February 11, 2009 6:29 AM | Link to this
Amare should get traded to the hawks with leandro barbosa for Zaza pachulia, marvin williams, ronald murray and speedy claxton. The money works out perfect. The Hawks get amare who is an all star and a potential 20 and 10 big guy and the hawks also get barbosa who is a quick off the bench scorer. The suns get injected with youth and talent, by adding zaza pachulia who is a young big man (6 foot 11 275 pound) that can play defence and rebound, Marvin williams who is having a break through season and is consistantly getting better. he is a big man 6 foot 9 240 pounds versitle forward that can play good defence and shoot inside and outside the arc. The suns also get ronald murray who is a vetran guard that is a quick scorer and plays off the bench. Everyone knows that speedy claxton isnt good but he comes with a two year contract that runs out in 2010 and is worth nearly 6 million, this would enable the suns to have alot of spending power in 2010 because of nash and shaq’s contract runs out then aswell. The other good thing about the suns aquiring marvin williams, zaza pachulia and ronald murray is that all there contracts run out this year, so if the suns dont want to resign them they could go for a big name in this years free agency (boozer). This trade could bridge the gap for atlanta and they could become a real contender against boston, cleveland and orlando and the suns would only have to play amare twice a year! Potential line ups Atlanta Phoenix C Al Hofford C Shaq PF Amare stoudemire PF Marvin Williams SF Josh Smith SF Grant Hill SG Joe Johnson SG Jason Richardson PG Mike Bibby PG Steve Nash
THIS WOULD BE PERFECT!!!!!!