Hawks

By JM

December 18, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Hate the loss, but it is still early. Shots weren’t falling and Woody didn’t have an answer for Rondo (think about Acie next time Wood, Bibby kept getting beat). Hawks need to move on and finish the home-stand strong.

By Ron E.

December 18, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Sekou, is Acie Law injured or something?

By Art Vandelay

December 18, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

This was a tough loss, but not a setback loss. The Hawks were able to stay in the game despite numerous missed open jumpers and layups, and sometimes you just have to tip your cap to guys like Garnett and Pierce when they’re hitting everything they put up in crunch time — that’s why they’ll be hall-of-famers. And Sekou, you’re right about Rondo. He’s really taken his game up several levels and is a lot of fun to watch. Being surrounded by all the veteran winners on the Celtics has helped him develop into a player well beyond where I ever thought he’d be.

I loved the effort last night, but I really hate to see a game that good come down to a missed free throw…feels like we got robbed of the breathtaking finish we were all expecting. Either way, I’m going on the record and admitting that I WAS WRONG ABOUT MIKE WOODSON. He’s got these guys believing in themselves and, despite a few hiccups in the first quarter of the season, they’re playing fundamentally sound ball and giving the best teams in the league fits. Good things lie ahead for this crew.

By Justin

December 18, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

Sekou, I think this exposes a problem up front for us. We got killed on the boards in Texas. It’s unacceptable to give up that many points in the paint. Do you think we’ll make a move before the deadline to address this?

By ILL-logical

December 18, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

A famous coach once said that some players play from the waist up and others play from the waist down.

Maybe,just maybe this game will help the Hawks grasp the distinction( and the conditions are not mutually exclusive).

By nycHawksfan

December 18, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

It was frustrating to watch good ball movement throughout the game until the final 3 possessions which were simply isolation plays for joe johnson. Erg.

By Woodson is a douche bag

December 18, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

I watched the game yesterday and coah woodson must go. He wins simply based on talent and he interrupts the flow of the game.

The hawks work hard for everything and do not have an identity.

No set plays. no screens, pick and rolls. everything is off the dribble and one and one.

You cannot win that way.

Horford has yet to develop a consistent low post move.

wtf is he waiting for?

Murray should have played rather than bibby.

listen fire woodson he cannot coach.

coaching was exhibited in the game afterwards by byron scott and popovich.

The hawks should have blown the celtics out. Woodson will always hold them back.

he is a dumb arse coach. he cannot create any motion to manufacture mismatches or clear looks at the basket.

Fire that clown.

By Rock Preston

December 18, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Morals victories get you no where!!!! The Hawks have to rise up and find a way to beat the Celts!!! The 88-89 Pistons had to find a way to beat the Celts…The 90s Bulls had to overcome the Pistons…The Hawks have to keep fighting to get the CELTICS!!!!!!!!! They will get them!!! Josh has to learn when to drive and when to settle for jump shots. He settles for jumper too much…I’m not sigling him out, but little things like that determine who will win. THEY (the Celts) have figured it out. We WILL figure it out. KEEP PLUGGING HAWKS!!!!!!!

By JD

December 18, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

The Hawks missed their first 11 attempts and still led to the end. The Hawks missed 7 free throws, 4 by their two best ft shooters, and the Celtics missed 4.

The Celtics are at the VERY top of their game right now and the Hawks are not. The Hawks are young and will improve through the year and, if anything, the Celtics older players will decline as the year grinds on.

There is a great upside for the Hawks if they remain healthy,

By JD

December 18, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

Murray should have played rather than Bibby?

The Hawks are as good as they are BECAUSE of Mike Bibby. Murray has been up and down.

By beau gust

December 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

Has anyone ever seen (before last night) a ref call an official timeout when a player slips and falls? Has anyone ever seen such an obvious double dribble not called before?

Good game otherwise by the refs, but when a game is as close as that one, those points matter.

Of course if the hawks had hit any of the 47 shots they took on the first possession, it might have been a different outcome!

By MannyT

December 18, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

As the greatest trash talker of our times used to say…

To be the man, you gotta beat the man

The Celtics earned the right to talk the trash because they won. The Hawks do need to funnel that energy we put into Celtics games into every game like Legler said.

Sekou The flip side of that points in the paint stat is that the Hawks tend to fall in love with the 3 ball even when it is not falling. They remind me of characters in those Lord of the Rings movies when they put on that ring. They have more power (the 3 pt shot), but they tend to lose their objectivity about everything else.

Woody does a good job with motivation and planning before the game. During the game, I’m not very confident in his moves. Rarely does he seem to force the other team to do something. He tends to be more reactive.

Time to move on to the Warriors game. We need to get back on track.

BWAF

By paul revere

December 18, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

WHAT DID I TELL Y’ALL STUPID MO-FO’S!!!!! HAWKS ARE GARBAGE

By Hanie

December 18, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

I still can not get over that non double dribble call. What was the ref looking at? That ended up being a 3 point play. Then of course the Celts won by 3. I just can’t get over how a nba ref can miss that double dribble.

By CBreeze

December 18, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

As a Celtics fan up here in Boston, I’m now officially naming the Hawks as the team I want LEAST to play! Their defense was absolutely BRUTAL throughout the whole game (I kept counting to see if they had SIX guys on the freakin’ court!!!). The Celtics had to make 3 or 4 passes in hopes of getting a decent look at the basket. Ray Allen was thrown WAY off because of it.

I thought the game was good & clean, just 2 teams concentrating on trying to get one more point than the other before the final buzzer sounded. Obviously, I’m proud of the composure the C’s showed in the last 2 minutes on the road.

The only thing I’d say about the Hawks on the negative is that they seem to live & die by the long ball and come playoff time, you definitely need to get the ball in the paint and make things happen that way. Other than that, Hawks fans have a LOT to be excited about!

By I MUS WRITE

December 18, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

WTF???………. The J Chills interview kinda got under my skin. A phone interview with a former player during game time action is Ludacris. The first time on ESPN in god knows when and all I can hear is Chills sounding home sick.

News flash nobody gives a dam bro u got paid, you made ur bed now lie in it- Jeez

Rondo was right if we had that type energy every night we would be a top 5 team in this league.

I like our hustle and energy ,but you cant win if shots dont fall -horrible shooting night for us ……. missed jumpers,layups,and free throws sealed our fate - I actually saw the team run an effective play last night - they ran it like 4 times n a row……. We all know woodson is limited offensively but sum type of movement was good to see.

Im not sure that we can win a playoff series or in the future a ring with 2 6’9 guys anchoring ur front line. Kg showed us Smoove is to small and If Illgauskas would have played in Cleveland i dont think we would have got that one

We need a legit bigman…..H.thabeet -get him Sund I dont care if one of our forwards has to go. Trade up and snag this guy —-You cant teach 7’3 270 and stupid athleticism- Shot blocker extroidenaire

How good is Al Horford 8 pts here 12 there. I mean im saying he really doesnt impress me -Scola is just as effective playing against better competition -Just food for thought

By C's R Back

December 18, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

The Hawks have a long way to go. They play the C’s tough, but look at thier record. Then look at the C’s record. Experience matters and good teams know how to win close games.

By Train

December 18, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

To Rock Preston,

Did you really compared this Hawks team to the late 80s Pistons and the early 90s Bulls? Really? Wait, how many playoff series has this Hawks team won? When was the last time the Hawks finished with a winning record (least y’all forget, they finished 37-45 last year)?

True, the team has a ton of talent, but it appears that outside of teh Celtics, they don’t bring a collective energy every night. There is a lot of potential, but this team could as easily miss the playoffs as make it.

So use caution before comparing this current Hawks squad to all-time teams like the ‘89 Pistions and the Jordan-led Bulls.

You think Michael or Isiah loses last night’s game at home?

By DHD

December 18, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

The difference was simply a couple of missed free throws by Marvin and one by Joe. That’s how close this was.

If the Hawks are going to compete for the championship, they have to get a big man. If they could pick up somebody like Kaman, it would improve their chances.

By Willie Dee

December 18, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

The Hawks play a great game lst night. I think World Champs got all the calls going there way late in the game. I am very happy for the Hawks.

By TheHawksFan

December 18, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

Who Da Fuggg or WTF is Rondo???? Rondo Bondo Shondo whatever mannnnn!!! Put that dude on the Grizz or Wizards team and see how many assist or points he gets everynight. Take Garnet out of the lane and see how good his D is. We could be Top 5??? STFUP. NO Shiet!!! We are number 6 already IMO. I realllllyyyyyyy dis like the Celtics. More so now than the days of Bird Parrish and Mchale. Garnet is a loudmouth wannbe thug. Shut ur damn Piehole mannn!!! Show some class. Take a lesson from Jordan, let your play do the talking. Who da fugg u trying to scare??? Za Za??? oooops that didnt even work. Paul P sounds like he has bad breath with that scathy azz voice. If not for Ray Allen the Celtics would be classless. That doesnt mean send him flowers Woody. Whats up with that sweet azz hey Ray how are you tonight greeting on ESPN mic uped segment??? Yeah the Hawks do need a center. But where is he??? Im still waiting on the Pistons to tank so we can cherry Pick Wallace. Anybody else is a waste of time. The Hawks youth payroll and record are the envy of the NBA. Cost effective. We are right there. I just cant STAND Boston!!!! Damnnn! Goooooo Hawks!!!

By Swatguy

December 18, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

Nit-Picking. Two plays stick out. (1) the non-call travelling on Pierce as he slide from his knee and feet. (2) the non-call continuation on Joe’s shot right before Pierce got the identical looking basket afterward. Here is to learning from losing and no excuses. but it is hard to not see the “no-calls” in a tight forth quarter.

By Melvin

December 18, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

IMUS, I thought I was the only one who noticed how ESPN dig up every hiccup the Hawks had in recent years. They spoke about the JChill & JSmoove signings, JSmoove/Woody allegedly disagreements and the ownership debacle. On top of all that, they had JChill on the phone during the (FREAKING) game. I appreicate the National coverage but could you spare us the bad publicity….

By the way, i noted that they said we may trade his rights next summer. I wish we would resign him for the playoffs.

By kwooden1

December 18, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Its been a few more hours and now I’m actually not angry or really disappointed (just a little) about the game any more. I’m thinking now that the person that really needs to learn from this game is Woody. We all know Solo and Acie should have gotten sometime and the HAWKS should have pushed the tempo more. I think playing the Warriors next is a great transition for the team and especially Woody.

The Warriors will play fast and the HAWKS will have to keep up with them. Woody will have to re-enforce to the guys that they can’t fall in love with the 3 or they will fall right into the Warriors hands. Most of all he needs to emphasize, if they play great defense and move the ball on offensive, they should be able to win by 10-15. The Warriors will let you run your half court offensive so the HAWKS have a great opportunity to build confidence in any of their sets.

I would like to see them shoot somewhere around 17-19 3s, opposed to the trend of 20-23 a game. JS should continue to take 1-2 a game (keep defenders honest), Bibby, JJ and Marvin should take around 5 a piece. JJ should concentrate on driving to the basket, with Marvin and Bibby on the wings he’s getting open lanes to the basket. With Horford in the low post and JS in the high, they can really start executing more traditional offensive sets. They can stop posting JJ so much and get more movement. My thinking is JJ always initiates the offensive and gets the ball late in the shot clock if needed. You can always run Joe ISO if the game gets tight or we need a big shot.

Time to move on

GO HAWKS!!!

By BrittishAnger

December 18, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Okay, where to start….

1) Rapport and execution: well played Sekou and WIAD, there were major points in the game where second passes to better shots were passed up (some were taken, but Marvin shooting two tre’s for the night is pitiful). They did what I talked about earlier this week, pick and rolls, and they executed them to a perfection rarely seen outside of most basketball games in easy mode. There were points in the game where Marvin and Joe were posted in corners waiting to get that three up, but rather than have players in the right position to work it around the horn like they did, we kept getting locked on one side of the court. This must be improved, and something that will add to that is…

Knowing your Role: Who can shoot a three pointer on this team? Now who can shoot it well? Everybody that raised their hand can shoot them, and depending on your percentage you may take more, otherwise half-court fast break schemes to the bucket to draw the foul will be the way you make threes. Josh Smith must break this cycle of bad shot selections and start breaking for the paint like that monster three-point play in the fourth. Al needs to post up for more rebounds rather than getting ahead the transition, we gave up some stupid rebounds only because we were nowhere to be found after the ball hit the rim. Zaza did his job, A+ big man, you’ll get another plus when Coach Woodson allows you to play over 25 minutes in a game….which brings me to my final note…

Center dillema: I see no reason why Woodson runs the starting five he does in “EVERY” game, because the starting five is undersized and for the life of them cannot exploit that size difference when we face teams like the Rockets, the Spurs, or even Boston. Part of this is the lack of a center, my primary rant for those keeping track, or our apparent unwillingness to play with the ones we have. Sekou, ask Mike why he hates his centers, and refuses to give them minutes when it is painfully obvious that we need them out there in some capacity, especially when our size differences don’t pan out. It isn’t like this team doesn’t have the pieces to play a variety of rotations, it just seems that Woodson doesn’t have the huevos to actually persue such a route for his team, a route that would take a obscure contender into a whole new level. This 8 man rotation experiment Woody’s been at for a few games now only has so many potential teams to match up against before you realize the necessity of a standard line-up to deal with those nights where mismatches aren’t going to cut it. We need to start using our centers, or let go of some of these extra players in a trade situation to either draw a legit center into the rotation and give Zaza and Al some relief down low, or to grab a draft pick for one (though I know of nobody worth snagging in the draft yet). We need to have a reliable bench squad to roll with, Woody’s gotta start making that happen, or we’re going to be above .500 ball until playoffs and we’ll go out first round like T-Mac all over again….

Final Note: Sekou, can we buy out Speedy’s contract? I mean, can’t we give him an office job and lose the cap room to make some serious moves? What is the problem with his knee, is it going to keep him out all season, and is there any recourse the Hawks have in canning him? He is a blight to this team and needs to be dealt with in rapid and brutal fashion.

By Stevekl

December 18, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Didn’t the Hawks dress 12 players for the C’s? Why did only 8 play? Come playoff time the Hawks aren’t gonna make much noise if the starters are too tired after playing 35-40 minutes every night.
Where was Acie and West when Rondo was hot and why didn’t Solo or Morris match up against Garnett? Make him work for his points. An 8 man bench is not gonna cut it all year and Woodson has NEVER, let me repeat that NEVER, gone with a long bench in all the time he’s been in ATL!!

By Mike is back

December 18, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

My sentiments too Ray from your post on the last blog, I don’t blame Joe for the lost to Boston.  He stepped up and made plays when it counted.  We had opportunities to win the game, it’s just wasn’t going to be our night. I thought after Smoove thunderous dunk, we would win.  KG would have none of that last night.

As for Execution trumps effort, Two things:

1.                  Didn’t you just feel that Rondo would have had his hands full with Acie. Every time you see Rondo break our guards down, and get to hole, Doesn’t it frustrate you because that’s a added dimension that Acie can give this team.  Woody has to find a way to get Acie in the game. Same goes for Solo, we could use his length in Post against KG.  

2.                  That Draconian offensive scheme of Woody was exposed for what it is. Woody has to be brutally honest with his self and admit that he needs help from of his staff on offense, and turned the offense over Larry Drew. Why can’t they both work together as a formidable team? One handles the defense and one handling offense. Again, it goes back to how much has Woody matured as a coach. Can Woody trust some one besides his self?  

Having said that, I’m still proud of the effort and energy the team played with last night.  I felt Woody had the team was well prepared for the game, they just  need to come up with a better scheme on offense. Which means a renewed emphasis on getting the ball in the post.  Plus, it is time to find a way to start getting guys like Acie, Solo, Mario, Morris  in the game to change up your attack.

GREAT GAME,  GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By LOL

December 18, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

I laugh at the Celtic fans who come on these blogs and talk this big talk about looking at records and what not - DUDE you have 3 legit All-Stars and Hall of Famers on your team!!! I can’t think of too many teams around the league that could even match up with that….maybe a few west conference teams but I can’t think of anybody in the east that can boast a roster like the C’s can. Last night and in most of their games one of the big 3 is on the floor at all times which I think makes them more like other teams, but its a huge advantage because the other 2 guys are resting up. With those 3 guys on the same team you BETTER have the record that you have. If the Celtics were anywhere close to having 10 losses so far this season there would be a lot of trouble in beantown.

Unfortunately for some of the C’s fans they don’t quite see it that way while I give props to other C’s fans who do and can understand while other teams should feel happy with the fact that they can take a team of the Celtics caliber to the last tenth of a second. For those other guys just get over yourself. You should have beaten the Hawks by at least 10 points twice this season and you didn’t. Feel happy about your win but time is slowly running out on those guys while younger teams are starting to catch them.

By brewdawg

December 18, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Kevin Garnett said it’s not a rivalry bc “you have to win games.” Why is everyone telling me the series went 7 games last year when the Hawks apparently got swept??

By Timeout

December 18, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Great teams will win games like this. And great players make their free throws when the game is on the line. We didn’t do either one. You know, all this “feel good” talk about how we “fought hard” and “gave it all we had” is junk. It boils down to Smith taking stupid shots from the perimeter, not making free throws, not hitting shots when we have had several opportunities for even second shots from offensive rebounds??. This is a streaky team. You can’t count on anyone making shots when it counts unless for some reason they are just hot at the time. This town will always have mediocre sports teams. It must be a curse!!

By Headballcoach

December 18, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

I hate to say it but the Hawks will not win with Woody as coach. Its that simple.

By doc

December 18, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

finishing at the basket is where we lost this one from josh to jj to marvin to al to bibby to zaza. all of them are not either gutsy enough or strong and committed enough to do it the way the good teams do it. the celtics won it inside we lost it there not at the foul line. if it had been and one it would have meant the lead for jj. from my perspective it was almost good enough to get the fouls shots not to finish. simple math and yes sekou execution.

they were over anxious as all shots were back of rim. they all had shots right from the get go ad every single one was back rim dead on but long and continued through the night.

now something other than basketball and new blogs: enjoy ….. heh heh

http://television.aol.com/tvtop5/sing-it-sister-jimmy-kimmel-live/2355945/AWARDS

finally good to see my buddy manny t and meet home grown last night. missed jhan.

By jc316

December 18, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

The main reason why we lost the game was shot selection. We came down the court with the ball at least 4-5 times with a five point lead and shot the most horrific shot you can imagine. One of those times was after a called time out. When the team looks at the film today there will be not doubt about those shots. Everybody is going to miss on the foul line and the 3’s are going to come and go. But the shot you choose to take is important everytime down court. When the young hawks learn this lesson they will be one of the toughest teams in the NBA.

By Melvin

December 18, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

One thing I notice from last nite game was how the offense became staggant when Bibby went out of the game. That’s b/c Woody choose to play Flip at the pg who’s more of a scorer instead of Acie who’s more of a facilitator. Hawks had trouble getting into their offensive sets b/c we didn’t have a PG on the floor that could run the offense… Brilliant Woody.

By Morris

December 18, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Like I said in my prior(and only) posting. Mutombo and playing time for West

Mutombo and playing time for West

Mutombo and playing time for West

Mutombo and playing time for West

If you know basketball then I don’t need to explain why. Enough said.

By Steve Belkin

December 18, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Suckers.

By Da Real Real

December 18, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

I’m all for making arguments against Woody…last year I did it several times, but now I start to question some when it comes to calling for his head right now. I said it earlier…it’s easy to question him about whatever his offensive scheme is. Whenever we go against top teams we just don’t appear to have a settled half court offense - I have no problem with those kind of complaints against Woody.

But now we’re starting to see guys call for his head because Solo didn’t play or because Acie didn’t play??? Seriously guys I wouldn’t have played those guys in last night games. It wasn’t like we were coming off of a back to back. Our rotation was about as healthy as you can be for this point in the season, and last but not least we were going against a far more talented and experienced team. I’m trying to figure out what could Solo and Acie have done differently from Flip, Mo, and ZaZa? We rebounded the ball well last night and played really good D…that’s about the only thing Solo brings to the table so why would he be needed if we did both those things last night. Acie can drive the ball but if you didn’t notice it last night the Celtics weren’t giving up ANYTHING on the inside. He has yet to proove, to me anyway, that he’s a good NBA knock down shooter so I’m not sure where those two guys would have helped us last night.

When the C’s are rotating and leaving at least one of the big 3 guys in the game it’s hard to give one of those two guys playing time because you’re forced to at least leave at least two, and at times three of your starters on the floor to try and match up with their rotation. I would much rather go with my experienced guys - ZaZa, Mo, and Flip over two guys who there’s no telling what you’re going to get from them on a given night.

By Justin

December 18, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

“The Hawks athleticism and overall feistiness make them a dangerous ballclub. But to move up to the next level, they need Smith to fully regain his chops, a dependable post-up scorer and a quicker point guard.” That’s Charley Rosen’s analysis. Though I don’t agree with everything in his article, I think he’s right on this. 1) Smith is not consistently playing at the level he’s capable of, and when he does, this is a different team. 2) We need more of a post game, and might need to make a trade. 3) Bibby is a great set shooter for a pg, but we need more playmaking at the pg. Woodson is doing a TERRIBLE job of developing Acie. We need to develop Acie or trade him or Bibby for a quicker pg, because Bibby is not the future of this team. We need a pg who penetrates more, which Acie is capable of doing. If Woodson doesn’t play him, that’s a huge waste. I would keep Bibby past the deadline if I thought the Hawks could challenge for the championship this year, but that’s not possible unless we at least bring in another big and maybe some more shooting.

By Justin

December 18, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

One more thing about the whole Childress saga. I didn’t see the interview on ESPN because I was at the game, but I don’t know how much it helps to sign Childress this summer if he’s available. He’s not going to come work for free since he has that huge contract already and the wing is not the problem for this team. Marvin is having a good year and will only get better. Mo gives us a 3 point threat. ASG is not going to go on a shopping spree so we need to spend the money where we need it most- a true center with a post game and to fix our pg situation if Woodson refuses to develop Acie. We can’t re-sign Bibby for big bucks. That would be a mistake.

By jhan

December 18, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

Train - if the Pistons & Bulls played each other ONE of them would have lost. So yes, Isiah or Michael would have lost that game last night.

Rondo certainly looks good passing to Pierce, Allen & Garnett. How good would he look passing to the Bobcats front line? I do give him props for defense. The man has amazing hands & extremely long arms - very disruptive.

Woody is Woody. After 5 years the guy still can’t call a good play coming out of a timeout. We routinely take bail out shots at the buzzer after his timeouts. Unexplainable!

Once again 0 minutes for Acie/Solo. Anybody think Garnett going 5-5 in the 4th has anything to do with our defensive guys being a little tired? How about subbing Solo for Al/Josh during the game so they are a little fresher in the 4th?

By Big Easy

December 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

As a Celtics fan living in Atlanta AND growing up on the Hawks in Florida, I loved the series last year and agree the Hawks are one of the teams the Celtics must dread playing. I’m as impressed with the way the Hawks have improved without Childress as I am with the Celtics’ start, without James Posey. (I still think that will haunt them.) The fourth quarter aside, the Hawks are more composed than last year, but do seem to break down a little offensively without much of a scheme in place. Can’t wait for the next rematch. I humbly disagree with KG; it is a rivalry.

By drahcir61

December 18, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

Some pretty stupid comments on here but that’s typical. “The Celtics got all the calls”, “The Hawks should have blown them out” … what game were YOU watching?

Fun game but it shouldn’t have been this close. The Celtics didn’t play well at all … Pierce 7 for 17, Ray Allen 5 for 15 including 1 for 8 on 3’s. If those two had played their typical game it would have been a blowout. Pierce didn’t seem in the game all night, maybe because he hyper-extended his knee 2 nights earlier, who knows. Another Boston team wins in Atlanta … another Boston fan in Atlanta is smiling.

By HOME GROWN aka E.J.

December 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

I am glad that I only have to type, because the voice is gone. Man, what a game. I hate that we lost it. I agree with some of the earlier comments: We need someone in the middle that we can count on to score down low. I think that AL is good, but we need someone else that we can bring in that will do the job as well. It was good to meet some of the bloggers doc and Manny T last night, hopfully I can make some more games and say hello again. Who’s next?

By Jimbo

December 18, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

WHAT a game - the Phillips Arena was ROCKIN’ last night. Ours is a very young team that will just continue to get better as the season progresses. Our goal should be to get home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs this year.

GO HAWKS!!!

By The Grinch

December 18, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Rajon Rondo said “If they played everyone else as hard as they play us they’d be a top 5 team.” That goes straight on Woodson. Why is it it takes people from other cities to say publicly what our media should be saying here? This team is entirely too talented for Mike Woodson.

By Darrin "The Vent King"

December 18, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

The Hawks main problem is their collective heads- period. How are you going to play the world champs this freaking hard and then struggle against Memphis? Indiana? Charlotte? Both Rondo and Bill Walton said the same and are absolutely correct. I tell how- the coach. He CAN NOT push the right buttons to get these guys to play hard like this EVERY game and its past time someone said it. I know they’re professionals, but if that’s all it is they wouldn’t need a coach. Sometimes Woody can get them to play hard, like the first six games of the season, sometimes he can not and frankly SOMETIMES just doesn’t win championships. They didn’t know what the hell they were trying to do in the first qtr and that’s called preparation- the better coaches in the league do not have this issue with their players. I’ll give the fellas an “A” in the effort department but a “D-” in execution, but this effort needs to ALWAYS be there.

I just hope this loss to the Celtics doesn’t equate to another five game losing streak like the last time.

GO HAWKS!!

By Justin

December 18, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

drahcir61, I’m not sure if you watched the game or just saw the box score and highlights on espn. The Celtics never had any semblance of command in this game. The reason the Celtics didn’t shoot well was because they had a hand in their face every time they shot. The Hawks’ D was really good last night. They also had way more good looks than the Celtics, but missed a ton of open jumpers. The Celtics rarely had an open look, and when they did it was usually as the shot clock was winding down.

By nelo

December 18, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Celtic fan checking in on you ATL fans after that tough loss last night. I have to give you guys credit, the Hawks played a damn good game and under most circumstances would have pulled it out. Forget about all what took place in this game, the main difference between ATL and the C’s is down the stretch the Hawks rely heavily on Joe Johnson, the C’s on the other hand have 3 weapons to choose from. So as the game was winding down it became JJ against Garnett and Pierce. That is a lot to ask for and JJ nearly came through. I agree with Garnett though about this not being a rivalry yet, sorry ATL. Everyone keeps talking about that playoff series and these two games, but I recall the C’s sweeping the Hawks 4-0 in the regular season prior to the playoff matchup. To be fair, Bibby played the last game so the series count is C’s 7, Hawks 3, with no wins in Boston. This reminds me of Knicks-Bulls, even though the Knicks always played the Bulls tough, but Chicago always won. Same thing happening here right now. Till we meet again!

By hawks_4_life

December 18, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

You know what no matter what happens some people are just negative. You can make a point about wanting a new coach when the hawks had miserable records in the years past and even then judging by the talent he had that was a toss up. People as of right now the hawks are a .600 team yet people want the coach fired. Thats ridiculous to even have a thought like that. Say what you will about Woody but dont discredit his work because he does deserve some credit for the hawks fortunes. I keep reading, we cant win with Woody, Woody this, Woody that, I say until this team is not producing bite your tongue because its all bs. Just because you feel someone should play more or less thats your opinion, you’re not the coach, this is not NBA live deal with it. People get caught up sometimes with wanting the you HOT-SHOT in the game too much. Now that being said, there is something to developing the talent within but if that talent is not producing in opportunities, I have no objection to having that person ride the pine.

One more thing with all the coaches fired this year and the turmoil this organization has been through, Im happy there is some stability within it.

By Justin

December 18, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

If the Celtics don’t think this is a rivalry, that’s fine. But if it’s not a rivalry, why do we have so many Celtics fans posting on our blog? We don’t have fans from other teams posting on our blogs after a game. I’m glad that the Celtics fans are posting their comments, but the fact that they’re here makes me think this is more of a rivalry than some people are admitting.

By hawks_4_life

December 18, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Darrin the shots just wasnt falling thats all. Also you refer to early in the year where the hawks struggled against seemingly weaker opposition, well remember J. Smith was hurt. He is a key player on this team.

By Ken Strickland

December 18, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

PAUL SEVERE-the Hawks have played the Shamrocks 2 times this season(home and home)and lost both gms by a total of 4pts. Name another team that’s taken them down to the wire like we have, twice? I’ll bet there isn’t a single Boston player, coach, or anyone else with an actual IQ, that ahares your classless, stupid assessment of the Hawks.

ART VANDELAY-last night the Hawks played last yrs NBA champions, who we took to 7gms in last yrs playoffs. The Celts are currently in the mist of a 15gm win streak, about to establish an early season record for wins and we’re playing them at home. If the Hawk players can’t get up for this gm, under these circumstances, they don’t deserve to be in the NBA. Tell me, what do you think Woodson said or did before or during last nights gm that motivated his players beyond mere circumstance?

Woodson’s OFF starts with one of our bigs getting the ball at the top of the key, which makes it a highpost OFF. However, we don’t use backcuts to offset overplay on the wings, we don’t have players cut to the basket off the highpost, and we don’t use lob passes to take advantage of our athleticism. Woodson’s OFF is designed to go from side line to sideline, not towards the basket. Teams just setup a picket fence DEF across the key and overplay the wings.

An intelligent HC would have taken advantage of Boston’s commitment to double teaming JJ. You put JJ in the low post on the same side with Bibby, and force the double. If they use Bibby’s defender to double, JJ hits him for an open shot. If they double with one of their BIG’s, we swing the ball to Marvin in the corner so he can do his thing. This would also be a great time to use backscreens and send a player crashing to the basket for a pass, especially a lob pass.

The Lakers, of the Showtime era, used that philosophy with Magic Johnson and made it work with great success. If the team didn’t double Magic, he’d used that running skyhook across the middle he developed. He either scored with the hook, or drew the DEF and passed to the corner for an uncontested 3pt shot. The only thing JJ can do trying to dribble through a double team, at the top of the key, is force a shot or get a turnover.

BILL WALTON SAID THE HAWKS ARE AT THEIR BEST WHEN THEY USE A SCRAMBLING OFF. THAT’S BECAUSE WOODSON’S OFF SCHEME DOESN’T HAVE ENOUGH STRUCTURE AND TOO FEW OPTIONS TO EFFECTOVELY CHALLENGE MOST DEF’s AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL OF OUR INDIVIDUAL TALENT. HOW CAN WE ESTABLISH A LOW PRESENCE WHEN ALL OF OUR BEST LOWPOST PLAYERS, LIKE HORFORD, JJ AND SMOOVE, ARE LINED UP ACCROSS THE TOP OF THE KEY TRYING TO MAKE OR RECEIVE A LATERAL PASS?

By Justin

December 18, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

How can we expect guys like Acie to play well right when they come in when they only get to play every 3 weeks? As far as defensive players, yeah, they should always be able to come in and make an immediate impact. But a position like pg requires rhythm and offensive flow and that takes a little time to get going. Just look at how poorly our starters have been doing offensively at the start of games. It seems like every game they start out cold. Give guys like Acie the chance to play meaningful minutes on a consistent basis and see what happens.

By Justin

December 18, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Most of the time Al received the ball he was 18 feet from the basket near the foul line. It’s true, we don’t effectively use cuts when our bigs are out at the top of the key. And when JJ gets doubled (on every possession), we didn’t do a good job of making the Celtics pay. Guys have to hit open shots when JJ is doubled.

By hawks_4_life

December 18, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Who cares what Walton says, he couldnt even teach his own kid how to play. By the way when has a critic actually had anything remotely descent to say about Atl hoops. Werent we to be swept last year?

By ATL Rattler

December 18, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

For real though! Solo got a lot of time, & prooved himself pretty decent during the time Smoove was out. Woody use the D@mn bench! Forget the close, heart-felt, good effort stuff. Point blank reason they lost (in addition to the refs giving the Cs the Duke treatment) was missed free-thows throughout the game. Clutch players hit free-throws when they count.

You know, outside of the occassional 15 ft jumper from Hakeem, I don’t recall the Dream taking a ton of outside shots. He left defenders dizzy in the low block - wasn’t Smoove suppose to be working with him a couple of summers on his post game - I Don’t see it. Hell, Mark Price is on the staff now, at least if Smoove is going to shoot he should work more with Price. Josh makes great defensive plays, but he wants his offensive game to be more than it is. I wonder does he hit like 12 3 pointers in a row in practice or someshin’ & so he gets the green light to keep shooting in games. Maybe they can add a late incentive to his new contract on additional cash for no more than 2 3s a game. I was really happy about them resigning him, for many reasons, but show him game tape of all his years & he’s at his best (like everyone in the NBA & the state of GA knows) when he’s working around the basket!

Damn, give Acie some run too! I guess someone has to get hurt first.

By drahcir61

December 18, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Justin, obviously you don’t watch many Celtics games. I watched the entire game last night & the shots the Celtics missed, in particular Ray Allen, would normally go in. I’m not here to bash the Hawks, they have a great young team & they’ve improved defensively this year … the Celtics didn’t play well.

By UGA Grad

December 18, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

Woodson remains without a clue on how to develop players. This is really a shame since we have been able to draft great, young talent because of our dismal records of past seasons. Horford seems to be digressing offensively from his UF days. Acie is missing in action as Woodie doesn’t know how to give him playing time nightly until he has developed. He has absolutely digressed from his A&M days. And Josh Smith could still be playing high school if based on fundamentals rather than talent. In the years that Woodson has had Josh he still doesn’t have a decent jump shot or move to the basket other than to try to float toward the basket or dunk. Also, Josh continues to struggle against anyone his size when on defense. (I’m not even mentioning how Woodson squandered Salim.) Marvin appears to have listened to Mark Price and is developing his shot. Maybe someday this team will have a new option late in games besides Joe. However, I’m afraid it will take a new coach or Woodson learning how to develop players.

By Moashe

December 18, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Interesting article - 80% right.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8958358/Hawks-close-to-being-title-contender

By hawkie

December 18, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Celtics fans post on our blog because Boston is nuts about sports. They read everything and are obsessed about their teams. I guarantee you would have seen a packed house at the starting buzzer in the Garden. We ATL fans show up fashionably late.

That said… it was good to see the Hawks play well. They just need to keep that intensity in every game!

By Eric

December 18, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

The Hawks got up on the Celtics by 6 about two or three times in the 4th quarter, then got careless with the ball or took bad shoots. Woodson has to trust his bench, why doesn’t he play Solomon Jones more??? If they correct these problems this team could go far.

By Ben M

December 18, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

I am a Celtics fan, and have to admit to being slightly concerned about the Hawks. I don’t know if they play harder against Boston than other teams, or if it is just a better matchup - but either way, I wouldn’t mind avoiding this Hawks team, which no doubt will only get better, come playoffs. These two games this season against Atlanta have been the toughest wins for Boston all season - tougher than Cleveland, Utah, New Orleans. Atlanta shuts down Ray Allen, Boston can’t stop Joe Johnson and does not have the athleticism to match Josh Smith or Al Horford. Maybe the Hawks will catch the Magic, and be Cleveland’s problem in the second round, and not Boston’s.

By I MUS WRITE

December 18, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

Seriously tho who is the Center that we speak of and how much would we have to give to get him. Who fits the bill -15 pts/ 11 rebs/ low post efficent/great defense….. Where does he reside?….

yeah- Melvin even when we are on prime time they find a way to chop us down….the comments were p** me off -i wuz like commentate on the game and leave our skeletons in the closet fool….

If im Sund i get in Woody’s ear asap….we need to play Acie or package him in a trade .

Ex. Ac/ZAZA for Kaman/2nd

I keep seeing the Kg turn around drop shot over JS in the last moments of the game ,and all i can think about is Solo’s reach and vertical +tops in the league……I just think in that situation the length woulda been more effective

By E. G.

December 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

IF THE CAVALIERS PLAY BOSTON WITH A HEALTHY “Z” AND THEIR “6 MAN”, THEY WILL SHOW THE HAWKS HOW A REAL TEAM SHOULD PLAY.

A lot of people are talking about how good Boston is, but just wait until the play a healthy Cavaliers team.

By T

December 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

I honestly thought the difference in this game was coaching. Doc used his bench, while Woody did not. Za Za brought great energy for the limited time he was in the game, Flip could have and should have done more and Mo could have scored more. Our bench can and should provide energy and fast pace tempo.

C’mon Woodson, use your bench to your advantage!!! Not playing them ensures the other team will have a chance to win.

By rocketdan

December 18, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

immaturity still haunts the hawks and thats why lost to a savvy vet team like the celts.

Two key plays why they lost

1) live or die with the jumpshot mentality

2) Dumb tech foul that should have made the game tied even if johnson misses the free throw

Lastly it would be in the hawks benefit to trade marvin williams for a post scoring pf and have josh smith go down to the sf or trade williams for a sf that can penetrate. They already have enough decent jump shooters

By John Zerblis

December 18, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Hawks are playing well.First Cleveland, now within a froghair of beating Boston. But, alas, moral victories are just more losses. I think Bum Phillips once said that his coaching career would have lasted longer if he hadn’t had to play Pittsburgh 6 times in 2 years.

By d

December 18, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Why is everyone avoiding mentioning the “obvious” aspect of this loss to the Celtics. The fact is that Joe Johnson missed the free throw that would have sent the game into overtime. Now, don’t get me wrong. Joe is a great player and from what I can tell, a great human being. But, I could not imagine Kobe, lebron or even Paul Pierce missing a free throw that decided a game’s outcome. There were a number of plays that led to this loss. But, the fact of the matter is that, had he his that free throw, the Hawks would have went into the overtime with a lot of momentum with the home crowd behind them and would have been hard to beat at home. so, in a nutshell, the same thing that separates Joe Johnson from Kobe and Lebron is the same thing that separated the hawks from the Celtics Wednesday night. Lack of ability to make a crucial play, or a free throw, when your team needed it the most…

By T

December 18, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

last night’s game should not have come down to the last free throw. I agree with posters who talked about the sloppy play when the Hawks were leading in the 2nd half. They have players on this team that do not protect the ball and try things they should not. That falls on coaching… They should not allow the players the freedom to do whatever they want.

Hawks should have won this game by 6 or 8 pts easily.

By Paul Pierce

December 18, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Listen up.. all you Hawk bandwagoners… lets face the truth, your boy Joe Johnson choked at the free throw line.. GAME OVER!! haha.

By Aaron B

December 18, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

I had to repost this. And btw all this Hawks Hating coming in from outside is PROOF that the Celtics and Hawks are now rivals…period.

Look, I have been a Hawks fan for a long time Indifferent, but the moment I let some Celtic bandwagon punk come in here and say anything about my Hawks without recourse, is the time you can start to question peoples education. Look dude, even the Celtics themselves, Kevin not included, take the hawks seriously. You should wake up and stick to the Celtics forum while you still have dignity. Because they will fear the Hawks during post season play. Both games were close and fierce. Maybe you should watch games, before you comment on basketball.

And this should go for any Hawks Hater that wants to come in here to set any one of us Hawks fans straight. The mere fact you would waste time to come in here is proof that we have you scared.

By doc

December 18, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

sekou, do you get a legitimate answer when you ask woody why he doesnt give more play time to acie and solo who were effective while josh smith was out irrespective of the record during those games? why are they not given play time in situations that would seem to afford them the best chance to be successful as well as the team while allowing them the op to mature in play time situations? can you get a straight answer from him?

sekou, are they really that sorry? it cant be all about practice now can it? i know there are a lot of questions just wondering.

By STRETCH

December 18, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

T…..Thats the point we all should be looking at with this team. These guys are too good to be losing games they way they lose them.

On average they lost most of their games this season by 5 points. Now if they had been protecting the ball, making some of the easy shots and less shooting of 3 pointers along with making better judgement on offensive they would be the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East.

Smoove is killing this team with his shoot first mentality. Zaza got to offensive fouls last night because he has not figured out that he is not as quick as all of his defenders. Horford did ok, but couldnt match up all night like a real big man could have.

And why does everybody stand around and watch JJ dribble into double teams and NOT go to the ball?

Where are the big men? This team really needs to make a move and get a big man. Dont know why they have Solo and Morris sitting on the bench….for what?!!!

Whats up with Speedy Claxton? Just taking up a space on the bench! Whats up with Acie?

By Paul Pierce

December 18, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Dang.. I didn’t know that the Hawk bandwagoners are such cry babies. I think my homeboy, Glen Davis, should let you borrow his nickname.. BIG BABY!! haha.

By jj

December 18, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

Why can’t Woody split JJ and Flips minutes and split AC and Bibby minutes.JJ is eating all the time at 2 and Bibby and Flip are sharing time at #1.Woody needs to cut JJ’s time so AC can get some time and also keep JJ fresh.Woody was a 3 when he played and he coach ‘sthat way. Let Larry Drew run the offense ands I believe we would see a more complete offense.Woody, the Hawks will be fine with Joe resting on the bench.

By BrittishAnger

December 18, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

TO PAUL PIERCE: Dang, I didn’t know you had nothing better to do than frequent a Hawks site, seems somebody is denying their true feelings…

By Sekou K. Smith

December 18, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Woody went eight deep and Doc went nine deep, with the bench contributing the same type of minutes and production. So I don’t know that any one cat off the pine would have drastically changed this game. I don’t know that they wouldn’t either, ha, since Acie and Solo didn’t scratch (and for the record, I’d lilke to see both of them folded into the regular rotation, even if it’s just for six to eight minutes each).

Had the Hawks pulled this thing out I can’t imagine anyone would be complaining about who did and did not play … well, maybe. But that wasn’t the Hawks’ biggest problem last night, the Celtics were.

There’s no shame in losing to the best team in the league folks. Sure, you let ‘em off the hook. But you get two more chances to make it right this season.

By RG

December 18, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Is Acie just in Woodson’s doghouse? It seems that if he makes 1 mistake he is pulled and then doesn’t sniff the floor again. I think Woodson has done a poor job with him, he will never develop if he never sees the floor and he will lose his agressiveness if he gets put in the doghouse for every mistake.

By cp

December 18, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

This is Woodsons 5th year and I still see the same crap. We still don’t have an identity as a team. How is it that this guy has been here this long and we still don’t know exactly what kind of team this is other than being athletic…. He has yet to instill a legit offensive scheme…. Iso to Joe can only do so much… This guy never has a plan B. When opposing teams stop his first game plan he never has a counter move…. Rondo was beating guys off the dribble last night and he didn’t counter by putting Law on him to slow him down… Solo’s length would have made shots tougher for KG but Mike Knapp refused to play him…..And can we get a guy in here to come off the bench who can finish at the rim? I like what Evans does for us and all but this guy cant finish at the rim unless he is wide open….The last time Ive seen him finish at the rim in traffic was in a preseason game when he dunked on Saamb when we played Detroit…Get us a guy in here who can finish at the rim and draw fouls to come off the bench…We settle for way too many jumpers..

By doc

December 18, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

gee sekou, you know as well as i do, maybe no complaints if they had won by 8 to 12 or so, not if they just eked it out. heh heh ;-))

ok got it, we will get them next time as we grow up and let acie and solo mature to give the C’s a different look the next time, right? the ole, we got them right where we want them mentality.

maybe ando you ought to go more to the semi-colon to divided up your comments. it is a very good way to punctuate and stay within the context of who you are rather than commas.

By hawkless

December 18, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

The Hawks remein a mediocre team They may reach 39 wins this year if they get a hot streak. Why should anyone expect more? Teams like the Hawks usually find a way to lose the “big” games, just like last night. These Hawks still lack talent, especially with no real center, and a very average Bibby at point guard. Marvin Williams and Josh Smith are not accomplished NBA caliber players. They would make nice subs on a good team. With their lack of talent, it is too bad they have to overcome a truly bad coach like Woodson. In the 4th quarter last night he basically just watched the game with a puzzled look on his face, as in, “what do I do now”? At the end of the game, all semblance of team offense and team defense disappeared. What it came down to was whether or not Johnson could make a couple of shots. 39 wins is about all we can expect from this coach and this team. The Hawks have been bad for so many years, they are pretty much irrelevant to most people in Atlanta.

By MannyT

December 18, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

doc Good seeing you and Home Grown last night. Did you see the one after with Jimmy Kimmel and Ben Affleck? An amusing response to a funny video.

Moashe That article represents what you get when on national TV once a year. You are fair to give it 80% correct, but I had to chuckle when seeing the claim that Marvin is the most athletic by far. Good thing the FoxSports folks didn’t see him doing his fumbling drives to the basket that happen many other nights. But Marvin did look good for the big TV audience.

For those who bash JJ—get over it. Sure I wish JJ had hit that last foul shot, but to come down on him as if that is the main reason we lost the game is similar to saying you don’t understand how some guy got a DUI who had 14 shots before finishing it off with a Shirley Temple.

There were many chances to make good things happen earlier in that game. We will get those Celtics yet. Just not yesterday.

I really, really would like to see someone other than Marvin take the ball out at the end of the game when we need a catch and shoot score. He is more of a threat as a shooter than as the inbounder. That worked for Chills who was not much of an outside shooting threat.

As I was at the game, I missed the Chills phone call. That is a different touch that fit this game. While you may not have liked the interview, it made sense that it happened for the Hawks only national game.

Sekou We will always find something to worry about. It is the nature of things with all this information available all the time. No more shots at Boston until late March. We have a lot of other business to take care of between now and then if that game is to be meaningful.

BWAF

By Paul Pierce

December 18, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

If the Atlanta Hawks want to win now.. they better jump on the Celtics bandwagon!! hahaha.

By Da Real Real

December 18, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Soooo let me get this right…Boston scored over 100 points to devastate the Hawks last night…..nope that’s not right…oh here it is. Boston’s big three only managed 88 points while beating us by 3. I think we (Hawks fans) agree that Acie and Solo need some more playing time but I haven’t heard anybody say anything yet that would make me a believer that if those two guys played last night the Hawks would have somehow won. That argument, if it is one, is starting to get tired. “If Solo played then he would have been able to better defend KG”. Aside from the last…3 minutes? KG had a relatively quiet night. Ray Allen didn’t do to much of anything. Pierce…i’ve seen better out of him. It wasn’t that the Celtics didn’t play up to “par” because they were trying extremely hard…but its hard to play up to “par” when another team is matching your “par” with pretty stingy defense. I’m still not sure what Acie could have done differently because I can’t recall that many drives to the hole on the Celtics without those guys getting a hand on the ball or blocking. Acie would have been killed trying to drive to the hole last night and I still don’t think he can knock down a jumper at a consistent basis when he’s not able to drive the ball, and he gets careless at times with the ball. We didn’t turn the ball over much last night…..the fact of the matter is that we got beat last night. Yeah if we knock down those free throws we win but I don’t think having a different coach last night, or putting in different players would have changed the outcome of the game - maybe it could and maybe not

By doc

December 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

uh, paul pierce, you are so yesterday. have a wonderful holiday and see you in march then hopefully again in april. BTW, careful you may get a bit overconfident or begin to feel your age by then. heh heh

By ray

December 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

First off, the cat posting as “ray” on the last blog at 8:52 a.m. was not me. Don’t know who it was, but good insight.

Second, where’s the cheerleader at? We all need our spirits raised…..

Sekou,

The comparison between our bench contribution and that of Boston’s is misleading. It’s not about how much they played vs. how much we played. It’s about when they played, versus when our guys played. Doc cleverly used his well-developed bench to keep the game tight against our starters until about 6 or 7 minutes (or something like that) left in the fourth quarter. Needless to say, their starters were then fresh for the most critical parts of the game, whereas ours were less fresh and in a bit more foul trouble. Gee whiz, where have we seen that before? Our bench guys played mostly in the first half….

I.MUS WRITE,

Your comparison of Horford’s performance versus Louis Scola’s is a good one. But I can easily tell you why Scola is outperforming Horford: Scola is allowed to play at his natural position of power forward, next to center Yao Ming. Horford is playing out of position at center, against the rest of the centers in the league.

Long story short: Scola is a good player, but he’s got an easier job. Imagine Horford playing next to a true center. Scola would not fair so well if he had to play straight up against Horford, without Yao in there. Add the fact in that we are so irregular in feeding him the ball or running plays to/through him, and you have a recipe for what seems like an average player.

By ray

December 18, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

Doc giving advice on punctuation. I love it….

By bigdave

December 18, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Von Wafer would have been a great addition to the hawks at the 3 if we would have given him a contract during camp. He has a drive first mentality, decent mid range j, and finishes strong. I like Moe no doubt, however Ive seen him get killed on the defensive end, and blow layups…

I hope Josh learns from his highlight yolk over Perk, ole Bill Cosby lookin.. Drive strong left finish strong at the rim, or get fouled. Stop trying to prove to these critics that you have dribbling ability and cut out the finesse layups. Lamar Odom makes a living killing going consistently left.

The nerve of Paul P. im sick of him and that sloppy drive and spin move, looks of balanced everytime; yet refs bail him out every time.

For the comment on the NBA’s biggest stars missing in clutch. Ive seen Bron miss numerous critical free throws. He used to drive and kick to prevent getting fouled and having to go to the line. Still dont trust him there. Jigga will be fine.. He didnt run from the cameras after the game. He was long on the shot anxious, simple as that…

Big Dave Smith Elem. Inman Mid.; B.E. Mays High; Morehouse

By Dean

December 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Several comments…

1. Many times we reverted back to the stagnant isolation offence with one guy trying to back his opponent down and four others standing around watching. That’s Woodson…that’s frustrating.

2. Granted Bibby can’t deal with Rondo, but can anyone explain how the other four Hawks starters all had more assists than our point guard. Woodson has got to find a way to let Bibby be a point guard and distribute the ball.

3. Will Josh Smith ever get better? He really plays dumb sometimes. Props for the dunk, but overall, not too good.

All that and we only lost by three. A better coach would have us better prepared. Same old story…Woodie is holding us back.

By bigdave

December 18, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

correction… ” he use to”, “looks off balanced”…

By cp

December 18, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

big dave I’m glad that I am not the only one who notices the number of layups Evans blows. And for a defensive guy he sure does get beat a lot. As I said earlier I like the addition of Evans but he is a poor finisher and overrated defender. We need a guy coming off the bench who drives and finishes strong while drawing fouls . Right now I don’t see anybody on our bench who does that. I honestly don’t see anyone on our roster period who does it on a consistent basis.

By kwooden1

December 18, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

I finally watched the first three quarters of the game on DVR. Looks like DirecTV has a deal with the NBA or ESPN, because I when I recorded the game, I know I stopped it at the begining of the 4th, but I ended up getting the entire game. What I watched was a taped delayed version with commentary from Stewart Scott.

Anyways, after watching the game with a lot less emotion and more objectivity, the HAWKS played very well. Their offense wasn’t as bad as it appeared. The motion set they ran at the end of the game was working very well. The times that the ball wasn’t moving, they didn’t run the set. They got a lot of open shots from their sets. 0-11 start wasn’t as bad as it seemed, they must have missed 4 open 3’s. Definitely need to push the tempo more often, t was very effective. Doc had to call timeouts almost everytime we got the fastbreak going. The HAWKS played with a lot of energy, but what I saw was a more organized attack. They aren’t the Celtics or Spurs yet on offense, but I saw some definite improvement. JJ needs to trust the sets that are run, pass the ball and he will get it back. They could have used Solo and Acie against the bench players some, but the game was so slow that I saw why Woody didn’t play them. (even though I disagree)

If the HAWKS bring the same execution and movement against the Warriors they should have success. I believe their defense will remain solid as long as they stay healthy.

If you have a chance to watch the game again, you will see a lot of good things.

GO HAWKS!!!

By The Grinch

December 18, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

No, Acie and Solo probably wouldn’t have outplayed Bibby and Horford had they been used more; that’s not the point. They would have kept the starters fresher for the end of the game. That’s how smart coaches win basketball games (or football, or almost any other sport). See Woodson standing around with that same expression all the time? Like he’s thinking “You say the alternator’s bad? That’s the thing that charges the battery, right?” He’s the Art Shell of basketball coaches. And I mean Shell as a coach, not as a player.

By K-Factor

December 18, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

Watched the game last night, and it was definitely a good one. The Hawks still need to do several things to become a better team not just against the Celtics, but any team in the NBA. First, they must turn up the tempo on offense. Teams like the Celtics cannot keep up with the Hawks when the transition game is at a fast pace. Secondly, the guys on the bench MUST get some playing time. Starters can only do so much and using the bench can help to create some newly found offense/defense that could ultimately give the starters some much needed rest, seeing that they play heavy minutes most games this season. It also helps to put the bench players around legitimate ballers and gives them the chance to prove themselves worthy of playing time. Another area of concern needs to be the lack of a legitimate inside game. Most of the shots by the Hawks last night were from the perimeter/3-point line. This is where the big guys on the bench and players like Horford and Josh Smith need to continue to improve their game. I can’t tell you how many times I have screamed at the TV when Josh Smith attempts to dribble the ball or shoot the 3 from the outside! Lastly, the play calls that Woodson has for this team do not look organized at all. Lots of times, it seems that guys are just standing around waiting for someone to have the courage to put up a shot. Everyone has to get involved in the mix and make the correct plays when it counts. Best of luck, Hawks!

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this

Hawks lost an apparently winnable game to the Celtics.

What really trumps everything said here to day is the record. 15-10 .600. 5th place in the East a game behind a vulnerable Detroit team, and a couple of games ahead of the next team.

If the Hawks were to fire Woodson now they would lose most or all of the little love and respect they’ve earned nationally. Bad teams don’t fire their coach when the team is playing .600 basketball.

I love my Hawks, but I keep a firm grasp on reality just the same. The Celtics are the superior team. The team with 3 All Stars(maybe 4 with Rondo) vs. a team with 1 All Star will win more often than they lose.

If execution trumps effort, then talent and match ups trump coaching.Doc Rivers never made it the finals until he had the talent that could match up well against any team. Phil Jackson doesn’t take over teams without superstars. Even in college, talent, not coaching is the coin of the realm.

Doesn’t mean coaching isn’t important, it is. But the team with the most talent that executes will more often beat the team with less talent that executes as well.

I agree with those who are aware that the Hawks remain undersized and that it will cost them against bigger teams.No coach is going to make Horford and Smith taller. More experience will only come with time and play, not a new coach.

Now if the Hawks record dips below .500 for a sustained period of time, and they are healthy. Then that would be the time to fire Woodson.

Many fans here resemble those on the Braves/MIB blog in that they love to call for the firing of some team official, yet rarely present candidates for replacement or any argument s as to why they would be an improvement over Woodson. Even those who fancy themselves as “analyzers” fail to answer the question of what comes after Woodson with any frequency or insight.

15-10, with a streak of home games at a good time.Good job Hawks!

Go Hawks!!

By Funny

December 18, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this

I just find it kind of funny to read what the so-called experts in this blog have to say. I mean there are so really really good, knowledgeable comments made from some people but then others are off the wall. There are some comments that if made last year would have been more suited. Kirk I agree with what I just read from you. Usually the Hawks blogs have a lot of knowledgeable comments, but tonight its almost like reading the braves blog. After a tough lost you have people saying who needs to be fired….what baffles me is this Acie and Solo talk like those two guys would have used some kind of magic and won. I realize and understand what some guys are saying about keeping guys fresh, but for a team that can keep at least one All Star or two All Stars on the floor at all times - somebody is not going to see playing time because you have to try and at least match what they do. The Hawks aren’t in a position to force the Celtics when it comes to bench depth. Maybe against other teams they could go 9 deep on the bench but not against a team like the Celtics. If you expect to win you have to play your money guys for as long as you can and if its working you can’t stop it. I’d say it worked for the most part last night

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

Funny,Good analysis about the relative bench strengths and why a coach would stick with his most talented players longer. In the midst of all the comments, that was point I don’t think has been raised much, if at all.

Only thing wrong with your comment though was saying you agreed with any part of my observation. That’s a no no here on the Hawks blog.

I hope you aren’t teated too rudely.Hopefully you’ll just be ignored for your transgression. :)

Go Hawks!!

By doc

December 18, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

well kirk, we mentioned rick, stan, karl, dantoni when they were available but no takee from the owners. forgive us for maybe giving up on the idea. funny the idea ended up getting billy knight his walking papers along the lines of tommy tubberville as they all said ti was totally unexpected. heh heh

personally, i havent been one to want to see him move on. not in my making but i want to see him grow as he wants his players to do in scope and range, i guess. i recognize the guys contiune to play for him on most nights. there were a few other suggestions from time to time about solutions to the delemna of who to get but i gues most think it fruitless to suggest. i too think it is fruitless to consider it at this point because there is now a suggestion of competence.

again most of us a able to accept that woody is like his team, a project. we just like to help his progress along with all of our suggestions. dont take it sooo seriously. after all, wasnt bobby cox denounced and decried thorough his tenure and continues to be on the braves blog. i remember my two brothers ranting on in the mid nineties and after a while i accepted that too, just like so many other things in life. it is what it is.

cox has been denounced for 17 years now. torre was hammered in spite of his record then goes and maages a injury riddled team in the dodgers into a .550 record against greta odds. wish cox had done that. well guess what? so will woody be denounced until he gets the big one, is fired or magically exceeds all expectations and has a run like sloan who is among the very minimum to last so long without a ring. i am sure even he somehow has his detractors.

as a coach or manager of anything if you stick around long enough you get fired. one gm i worked with in industry during my days as a management consultant said 33% will like you, 33% will dislike you. the only thing you have to worry about are the 33% in the middle. comparisons can be made in politics with obama starting like bush did at about 66%.

but yes i digress and apologize. it is by nature that folks continue to want to help in the case of woody. it is a disease called fandom. so if it makes you comfortable, swim against the tide if you wish. it may fit you well to do that. i assure you, you can expect that forever kirk it will always give you something to rant about. maybe i can see there is nothing more you want to provide to the blog, except the few salient comments about the hawks which were noted; only instead continue to flail away at a windmill that only you see. be out guest as your comments are always welcome. just a shame you cant stay on target about the hawks. so be it, we get it. we are dumb you are dumber? kidding and couldnt resist the playful take on movie titles as i assure you i see your intelligence and articulate thought.

go to any fan venue and i imagine you will find similar takes and attitudes and the resemblance of fans here, braves/mib, thrashers, etc. it is the nature of the beast.

By ray

December 18, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this

Now if the Hawks record dips below .500 for a sustained period of time, and they are healthy. Then that would be the time to fire Woodson.

That sounds familiar. Oh yeah, I posted a comment very much like that (along with a host of others in Woodson’s favor) at 11:26 a.m. on the blog titled Trap Game. Holy crap….that means Kirk and I agree on something. The Devil MUST be wondering if something’s wrong with his thermostat, because hell suddenly went cold…..

Many fans here resemble those on the Braves/MIB blog in that they love to call for the firing of some team official, yet rarely present candidates for replacement or any argument s as to why they would be an improvement over Woodson. Even those who fancy themselves as “analyzers” fail to answer the question of what comes after Woodson with any frequency or insight.

Now gosh darn it, my memory must be going bad! I could have sworn somebody told us all how bad it was on this blog and DOB’s blog was one of the blogs that was much more positive! No way could the fans there be anything like the fans here….unless…they’re the same despicable 6 or 7 people that keep causing so much trouble HERE! Blast those dastardly knaves!

Truth be told, anybody that’s been reading the posts on this blog for the last few years (well, other than those evil 6 or 7 monopolists, that is) would have seen several suggestions as to who would replace Woody. People have suggested current Hawks assistant coach Larry Drew, Avery Johnson, Flip Saunders, Rudy Tomjanovich, Mark Jackson, Michael Curry, and recently, Mo Cheeks to name a few.

There’s a reason why the alleged “analyzers” don’t offer ideas as to who should replace Woodson. Because anybody with a brain was able to piece together a few clues that Woodson isn’t going anywhere (unless things truly implode, as I explained two blogs ago). First clue: a story breaks that Billy Knight tried several times to fire Woody last year (and perhaps before then), but was rebuffed each time. Unless of course you want to call the article’s author a liar (that would be Sekou Smith). Second clue: Gearon talks very highly of Woody in more than one article. Third clue: Billy Knight is offered a one year contract. He decides to leave instead. Fourth clue: Woody is offered a two-year contract…kinda ties into clue #3. Fifth clue: The Hawks start the season in fine fashion, and maintain a winning record.

Not much analysis needed, therefore no suggestions from the alleged “analyzers” as to who should replace a guy who isn’t going anywhere. It really can’t be that hard to figure out…

Anyway, looking forward to beating Golden State tomorrow night. Ain’t it great to be able to expect a win?!

By RealSquawk

December 18, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this

So i was at the game and the most disturbing thing i saw was the number of Boston fans!! Ridiculous!!When Boston tied it in the fourth the placed got pretty loud.

Josh Smith needs to stop with the between the leg dribbles do a hesitation and then go straight at the basket simple as that.

Please pass this on Woody: On the Joe post up play Marvin and Josh need to switch places!!! It would make that play so much harder to stop if Joe went closer to the base line Marvin lined up at the same spot Josh lines up at and Josh is in Marvin’s place

and finally the Hawks played a wonderful game and played hard, but they are still shying away from contact. put Garnett and Perkins and Paul on the floor like they do the other team every time down the court and I guarantee you they won’t go for no cute alley-op or anything. don’t let them push you around it should be that every time they touch you they know you are there and they want to go to another space.

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

“blah blah blah, not available….”

blah blah blah, history lesson involving facts widely known….”

“blah blah blah, you’re dumb”

Like I said, no realistic plan for who comes after and why they would be an improvement.

Thanks so much.

be out guest as your comments are always welcome…

“our guest” huh? Who the heck is “our”? And guest of whom exactly?

By rms

December 18, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this

I wouldn’t have played Acie and Solo last night either. What I am upset about is why aren’t they getting any playing time prior to this game so that when they are needed they are ready to go. Thats what I am upset about, not about getting benched last night, its about consistent playing time off the bench prior to this so that they can be used. Start Bibby, let Law back him up (not Flip). I called it when Murray drove to the hole and lost the ball at the end of the second quarter. Let Solo relieve J-Smoove just to give these guys a breather. No they wont play better than these guys, but with consistent minutes off the bench, they could at least give your starters some rest and play decent enough for us to be a better team in the second half of the season. It was painfully obvious watching our halfcourt sets being mocked on national T.V. Can we please establish some sort of identity…Are we a running team, a jump shooting team, a half-court team, a defensive team??? What are we??

By tyger

December 18, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

JJ Choked

Alright I said what needs to be said.

You pay a guy $13M yr to be the face of your franchise, throw your ownership group into a 5 year legal battle and he cant hit a free throw in the clutch?

C’mon dude, give some of the money back, you’re not Olympic Joe, you didnt make the Olympic Team, you’re not Big Shot Joe - you scored only 4, 6 pts. a few games ago. No you’re not Joe Clutch either.

However, he remains Big Money Joe and thats all that matters, right???

By doc

December 18, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

kirk, we as in the collective blog that you exist in as long as you exist here. whether you want to be part of it or not as much as you want to be independent you arent as it is a collective, just with holographic thought. all is one.

in the end our is you i guess, isnt it? that is as long as you remain here.

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 9:32 PM | Link to this

Third clue: Billy Knight is offered a one year contract. He decides to leave instead. Fourth clue: Woody is offered a two-year contract…kinda ties into clue #3.

Um, sounds like the point I made this Summer when speaking about the good moves I thought ASG had made. But it was wrong then, ok now. Guess it really all depends on if it comes frompopular and approved sources.

Never been a Woodie fan, said it about 30 times now. But I accept the reality of a .600 ball club too. 2 years is enough for him to walk away as Knight did, or stay and be on a very short leash.

The Hawks were a 37-win team last season, but that win total was an increase over the previous season and the season before that one too. Now dude has the team at .600.

The Hawks would look very foolish if they fired him now and more importantly, no experienced good coach is going to want to come work for a franchise that fires a coach who took over a horrible team and increased win every season finally culminating in a .600 stretch to start the new season and he gets fired.

So asking about the next coach and why he’s an improvement may be too deep a question from an unpopular non approved source such as myself?

I’ll wait until popular and/or approved sources really get serious about answering the question.

Rarely does any coach or manager agree to a job where the previous coach was fired for .600 ball or close. The Yankees maybe? Has anyone really thought this through?

15-10, that’s what’s hot right now.

Go Hawks!!

By HB Ando

December 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

From the Department of Reading Comprehension and Redundancy, Kirk asks Ray:

“Who the heck is “our”? And guest of whom exactly?”

Um, “our” would be Ray and Ando, the Hawks’ Hacks. And “whom” would be, given it’s literally the exact same question, Ray and Ando, the Hawks’ Hacks.

Hadn’t heard from Kirk for a few days. Thought maybe he ticked off the orderlies, and lost his internet privileges.

By Melvin

December 18, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this

From a scout on NBA.com,

*As part of NBA.com’s GM Survey, 63 percent of the league’s general managers named Kobe Bryant as the player that forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments. But a scout told us recently that Bryant doesn’t top his list.

While the reigning MVP is one of the two best players in the league, he’s a prototypical shooting guard. The scout says that the players that make you change gameplans the most are those that don’t fit the mold for their position.

So the scout had Dirk Nowitzki, Rasheed Wallace and Josh Smith among the players on his list. And at the top is LeBron James.

“LeBron’s No. 1 and 1a when it comes to changing your gameplan,” the scout said.*

By O'brien

December 18, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

ESPN said that Doc Rivers and the Celtics are interested in signing Mutombo. Shouldnt the Hawks be interested? I have seen others on this blog mention him as well. Not only is he a veteran (which means Woody will give him PT), but he’s also played in ATL before, and we need some inside presence, plus if we sign him, that would keep him away from the Celtics.

By Melvin

December 18, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Antoine Walker is now a FA. Should the Hawks make a move for him?????

By The Truth

December 18, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Funny Your comment:

what baffles me is this Acie and Solo talk like those two guys would have used some kind of magic and won.

Here is the concept as to why Acie and Solo could have made a difference:

With Solo physical attributes of 6’10”, 240 lbs long wing span and athleticism, he plays virtually as a 7-footer already. As he gets older and heavier, he will be an in-demand player in the NBA. KG physically is 6’11” at 253 lbs and also plays like a virtual 7-footer. When you physically compare Solo to KG, the match-up is better then the KG and Josh match-up. Josh is not as tall and his wing span is not as long as Solo. Woody could have inserted Solo early in the game and tested the match-up against KG. If Solo was effective, Solo could have been used for defense during that stretch in the 4 quarter when KG was unstoppable. Josh defensively had no answer for KG and Woody never made any adjustment. It’s the same thing with Acie matching up with Rondo. We all know Acie is quicker and plays better defense than Bibby. Woody could have tested the match-up against Rondo early and see if it was effective. Woody could have introduced defensive wrinkles in the game to change the tempo. These players wouldn’t have played but 6 - 10 minutes but could have made a difference. We only loss be 3 points. I thought Flip did a similar thing when he came in but Woody pulled him too early.

Woody picking order is not based on merit, it is based on defined labels. In Woody systems, you are either a starter or a bench player. If you are a starter, you have predetermined minutes regardless of your performance. Likewise, if you are a role player, you have predetermined bench minutes regardless of your performance on the court. I know that most NBA teams will have their best players on the court during certain times in the game. But that’s where the chess match starts. As a coach, you need to have some wrinkles at points in a big game. Woody had none. In an analog of a card game between Doc Rivers and Woody, Doc Rivers won the game last night because Woody had winnable wild cards that he never used. If Woody is a gambler, he should never go to Vegas.

By RLP

December 18, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

Before the Hawks went to Texas and their record was 12-6 I predicted that the record could easily be 12-11 after their next five games with the Celtics coming up. After this loss they are 15-10 with the possibility of extending that record to 20 and 10. Forget the loss to the Celtics and keep the big picture in mind. At this point in the season the team, barring some catastrophic injury could be well on the way to a 45 win season with their current roster. For a team with 13, then 26, then 30 and then 37 season wins this team is on the right track. Appreciate them for what they are. And remember that the Celtics were out of the playoffs entirely two years ago. My position on Woody is that until his teams regress then you can complain all you want but you still leave him in charge.

By ray

December 18, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Funny,

You make a good point about keeping one or two all-stars in the game. However, we only have one. Also, the biggest thing, I think was the fact that the Celtics played their bench with only Ray Allen on the floor with them, for significant minutes during the late 3rd and early 4th quarters….against our starters. In other words, did we really have to use our starters to keep us in the game against their bench? Something doesn’t seem right there. I’d say their game plan (using subs, then bringing in starters nice and fresh for the last several minutes of the 4th quarter) worked better than our strategy of playing mostly the starters all the way through that stretch of the game. No, Acie and Solo don’t bring some type of magic dust that wins the game for us. But shouldn’t they be capable of keeping pace with the other team’s reserves? If not, then what is a bench for…

Also we could consider two things: Horford, Smith, Bibby, and Johnson were all shooting badly, so the strategy of keeping them in was only working so well. That, and Flip was shooting fairly good while he was in there. Why not leave him for a couple more minutes? Also, Solo is a guy who played well against the Celtics. So what if he gets a couple of fouls? That’s a couple of fouls Horford or Smith don’t get. He also grabs boards, blocks shots, defends out to the 3-point line, and goes after loose balls. But….that’s just my take on things.

By the way, who are the people on here calling themselves “experts”? Just curious, as I don’t recall seeing any, but you never know what you miss…

Anyway, no sin in agreeing with anyone. Hope you’re genuine and not a figment of someone’s imagination…

By E. G.

December 18, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this

NOOOOOO MELVIN

Antoine walker think he’s a superstar like Josh Smith, and he makes bad decisions more by trying too hard also and forgetting about his teammates.

In addition, he can’t shoot free throws, and he’s uncoachable.

By Lee

December 18, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this

I think the hawks are in serious trouble!!!Over 82 games you can’t just let JJ play 1 on 1 and expect him to keep making tough shots against good defensive teams. JJ missed the FT but what about the tip in Marvin missed before that?Did you see Pierce’s 4th Q defense on Marvin?Pierce was standing in the lane and Marvin was not looking at the basket. Isn’t he shooting 40%+ from the 3? Why not play Flip or Mo,at least they are not afraid to shoot and its not like Marvin shut Pierce down. Bibby’s D is bad(what kind of defensive scheme calls for him to switch on Pierce who is 6’7) but at least is he not afraid to step up and make a shot.And can Woodson teach Josh to not shoot so many jump shots without having to take him out the game. My problem is with Woodson,I think he choked!!! Rivers has his bench guys playing with confidence so he can rest the stars and they come back fresh in the 4th Q. I think the Hawks bench(Moe,Flip,Acie,Solo,Zaza) is better but Woodson does not use his bench then expects JJ to be Superman in the 4th!!!!

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 18, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this

Toine is my 4th least favorite Hawk of all time, after Jon Koncak, Glenn Robinson and Peja Drobnjak. I’d rather we play Zaza all 48 minutes than see his out of shape, shimmying azz in a Hawks jersey again.

By The Truth

December 18, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

RLP Your Comment: My position on Woody is that until his teams regress then you can complain all you want but you still leave him in charge.

You called these bloggers comments complaints. I called them adding clarity.

Ray I’m feeling man

By doc

December 18, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

rlp, my best guess and desire was to see them at 19 and 11 after they won the cleveland game. we have detroit coming up they have played us well historically. now with AI, a quick guard that breaks us down and sheed who loves to put us in his sights and shoot us down they have potential to deal us a loss. they are obviously not as fear inducing as they were last year. now if dean can give us troube then their own 6’8”’ big can do similar damage as well off the bench.

the other games are not as troublesome but these hawks sometimes come out with a lack of full focus and put themselves in a hole. no apparant patsies in the games coming up so i doubt they finish the rest of 2008 undefeated. just dont htink 20 and 10 is feasible.

how do you see it different given the teams coming through?

By psulli81

December 18, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

This team is always going to be held back by the hideous coaching. The Hawks play at one of the slowest paces in the league in spite of being one of the most (if not THE most) athletic teams. Marvin Williams and especially Josh Smith are very athletic and often look out of sorts in a half court game, why not try to get them more easy baskets? Why was Garnett being single covered when he was destroying Smith/Horford, you even have an easy guy to double off of in Rondo, who can’t shoot from deep. Why were they switching every screen-roll and then refusing to double Pierce when he caught Bibby in the post? The Hawks are very talented but as long as Joe is the only player who can reliably create his own offense, the team is going to struggle against every elite defensive team as long as Woodson insists on walking the ball up the court. You can talk all you want about missed opportunities on the court (and there were quite a few) but the game wouldn’t have even been close had the game been well-coached.

By ray

December 18, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Okay, Kirky

Um, sounds like the point I made this Summer when speaking about the good moves I thought ASG had made. But it was wrong then, ok now. Guess it really all depends on if it comes frompopular and approved sources.

What point? I simply stated it as a clue to the idea that Woody was here to stay. I didn’t like the decision to keep him then, and I don’t like it now. However, the team record would suggest that he stays. The approval/popularity stuff is irrelevant in this conversation, and continues to come from only one source: YOU. But I’m confused: you say you never were a Woody fan, but you also state that you thought it was one of the ASG’s good moves? Or were you talking about Billy leaving? ‘Cause if you’re talking about Billy leaving, he did it of his own volition (as reported). The ASG offered him a job to stay. I don’t get what point you’re saying you made. What I do remember is that you supported nearly every move the ASG made, and I disagreed with several of them. No big deal…

The Hawks would look very foolish if they fired him now and more importantly, no experienced good coach is going to want to come work for a franchise that fires a coach who took over a horrible team and increased win every season finally culminating in a .600 stretch to start the new season and he gets fired.

Agree partially with the first part. And I stated as such…two blogs ago, if you were reading. As for the second part: You assume too much. An experienced good coach is not always the target. Sometimes it’s just simply the guy the GM wants in place. Also, you must consider the fact that philosophical differences can overcome records. Did not the Pistons win many games under Flip Saunders? Sure, he didn’t take the Pistons and draw them out of the dregs of the Eastern Conference, but they were a winning team…Having said all that, I’ll say what I said before: hard to see Woody going, like him or not, unless extenuating circumstances intervene. Essentially, you are echoing what I said. And neither of us really like Woody.

So asking about the next coach and why he’s an improvement may be too deep a question from an unpopular non approved source such as myself?

Again with the approval stuff…why does it eat at you so? You’re the only one calling yourself “unapproved”. Nobody else has called you that. Sorry that you do not feel popular, although out of the other side of your mouth, you have maintained that you accept such a self-imposed title/position of martyrdom. Perhaps more engagement in talking actual basketball, including the details and nuances of the game would help, instead of constantly whining about being an ostracized minority (while reveling in the very concept) and bashing other bloggers. Then again, I recall you saying you were here to “go against the grain.” But I swear, it’s like proclaiming that you are going to bravely walk barefoot over burning coals, then complaining that your feet are hot…

I’ll wait until popular and/or approved sources really get serious about answering the question.

Submitted again (as it was months ago): My personal pick was to either hire Avery Johnson back before Woody was offered the 2-year contract. I also advocated promoting assistant coach Larry Drew to head coach. He’s been here the whole time, knows the guys, and is familiar with the organization. That, and his talents were well enough thought of for him to get job offers elsewhere (which Billy Knight quickly stymied). Serious enough for you?

Here’s another fact: Since the beginning of the season, I have not said one word about firing or replacing Woodson. So perhaps you need to find another one of these mythical “approved” sources to take your question to, although Doc (who surely fits your category of “approved”) has given you an answer as well.

And I never forgot the fact that you never answered MY question from months ago. You said we would be just fine with or without Josh Smith. I said, okay, I’ll buy that, but if we go without him, then who should we trade for that would make us as good or better a team as we are with him?

Your answer, my dear Kirk, was “Others have already offered suggestions. I see no need to re-hash this point.” Translation: I don’t have an answer.

So. My turn to wait for YOU to man up and get serious about answering a question I posed to you some time ago. Or do we need to oh-so-conveniently forget the past? After all, Woody has his 2-year contract, and Josh has his 5-year contract. You could take the safer route and say that since the team is winning, neither subject bears discussion. But then that would render your demand for a serious answer as to who should replace Woodson as head coach both NULL and VOID….

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this

From the Department of Reading Comprehension and Redundancy, Kirk asks Ray:

The irony here of course is that the comment was not in response to the person claimed, but to doc.

One really should evaluate one’s own comprehension level before assailing the abilities of others.

The orderlies(nurses assistants if you please) are just fine. I received a good bill of health from the docs today. The reason there were no comments from me where because I was busy defending the Braves from the same type of pernicious assaults that are common place here.That and because it wasn’ yet ripe for me to speak.A little goes a long way here on the Hawks blog.

Anyway, no sin in agreeing with anyone. Hope you’re genuine and not a figment of someone’s imagination…

Ah, I forgot to warn against the questioning of existence.Again, ironic coming from a known serial user of false names.

And still no one to think through the firing of Woodson and the challenges I presented to such a notion.Guess I’l have to wait until approve sources discover they are worthwhile questions and appropriates them. :)

Go Hawks!!

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this

Throwing names out there is good. Throwing names that are available is even better. But there was more to what I asked than give me a name.

The discussion should be had since there is an almost daily call by some fans for Woodson’s firing.I realize that several popular aand approved sources here tend to write essays and some take multiple positions so they can then come back and say ,”well three years ago I said, or we said….” As if because they may have mentioned something close that’s all that is needed and how dare someone bring up something that was covered in Line 7 of Paragraph 12 of a comment made long ago.

Rulings Rules say to always claim to have covered a subject during some past discussion, rather than engaging the discussion now if it was raised by unapproved and/or unpopular sources. Yawn

Of course last week or week before last I was told that there had been no such demand for Woodson’s job. Um?

And for the umpteenth time, the 2-year offer was good because it could’ve(should’ve) made him angry and he decided to leave. Yet if he didn’t he would be on a short leash, one that would cost more to yank if it was of greater length.

So the appearance of doing the right thing without fully committing which was wise.The longer the Hawks win, the more righteous a Woodson firing becomes should the Hawks slip below .500 and stay there awhile.Also, there’s less money remaining on the contract which is a good thing.

But ladies and gentlemen I submit to you that the real fun is going to come should the Hawks maintain a better than .500 record, get back into the playoffs and perhaps advanced past the first round. What then? An extension, if yes, for how long?

I don’t believe people are as ready to deal with the possibility that Woodson could earn an extension as much as they are into his possible termination.

I know there will likely be some approved source who will claim this was discussed before, but as with the previous claim of prior discussion, I see the time as ripe to raise the issue anyway no matter who claims to have mentioned it before.

Go Hawks!!

By Funny

December 18, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this

I figure i’m as genuine as it gets…i’m a guy on a pc chatting in an online blog with other guys and ladies out there.

Back to the “bench situation” particularly in last nights game. Ray I actually do believe when we play against a team depth wise, and talent wise are superior to us (like the Celtics) that we do indeed need to leave a few starters out on the floor to keep us as close in the ball game when two of their big three is out of the ball game. I really would not want to face the C’s and play a game of Starters vs. Starters and Bench vs. Bench. I really don’t think that Woody could have afforded to go 10 deep last night….since the biggest complaints appear to be that Solo nor Law played.

We weren’t coming off a stretch where we played a back to back…this was only our second game of the week after a day off. I would think that our guys would have been as fresh as they could be. We’re younger so we should be able to outlast the older much experienced vets so why not try and take an advantage with that. I don’t think stamina caught up with the Hawks in the end last night. If we’re going to complain about anything that Woody did last night the last thing it should be was the way he opted to use his bench because it actually worked fine last night. Now on any other night where we are facing Memphis, and Charlotte and lower caliber teams I would definitely complain if Law or Solo isn’t in the ballgame. My complaint would have been about him deciding to revert back to the JJ iso offense. Now that I feel we can complain about all night and all week.

The problem with the “bench situation” is that we are arguing should Solo be brought in over ZaZa or should Acie see more playing time than Flip off the bench. I guess it depends on the team and the situation. Last night just didn’t seem like a team that even I would have opted for either Solo or Law over ZaZa and Flip. I felt ZaZa played KG well and rebounded the ball really good last night.

I think we all agree on this…until Woody starts playing or trusting Law and Solo more maybe we want have this convo about the bench. As far as the experts thing go I was being sarcastic man. I actually think that we all feel we have our own expert opinions which makes these blogs fun to come into. I like reading the Hawks blogs on the AJC because they seem to have the more knowledgeable fans. However there are some off the wall comments that make you wonder, but anyway thats my two cents.

By ray

December 18, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this

Ah, I forgot to warn against the questioning of existence.Again, ironic coming from a known serial user of false names.

You mean, ironic coming from someone who readily admits to using aliases for the sake of both personal and shared amusement, often at the expense of myself…it’s not my fault you didn’t think of it first and don’t share my sense of humor. I tried pi$$ing and moaning about my own self-inflicted blog pain. That, and I discovered very quickly that…it’s just hard to be bullied and persecuted on a blog… I’ll leave you to that one, buddy….whatever makes your boat float, is all I can say.

And still no one to think through the firing of Woodson and the challenges I presented to such a notion.Guess I’l have to wait until approve sources discover they are worthwhile questions and appropriates them. :)

I suppose my latest long-winded diatribe didn’t even cause a blip on your radar. You know, denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt. I guess my answer was of the unapproved list of the approved Ruling Rules category…or something confusing like that. If only you met challenges with the vigor with which you present them. And had the fortitude to accept that your challenges have been answered. It’s like throwing down the guantlet…and then running away as fast as you can…stopping, and throwing down another one…and running away again…

What is this, “capture the flag?” LOL….

By ray

December 18, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this

Funny,

Nothing wrong with sarcasm. I’m chock full of sarcasm some days. As for being an expert, I believe if you’re going to say you’re one, then you should be getting paid for it in some way, shape or form, or you’re just a poser, LOL!

Your ideas on the bench situation are well thought out. However, I don’t advocate bringing out Solo instead of Pachulia. I think he should be brought out along with him in more situations. That way, you can rest more than one starter at a time. But that’s just me. I’m not the one walking the sidelines here. And buddy, there will always be off-the-wall comments…heh!

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this

Lastly, let me clear. Just because one person claims to have mentioned something doesn’t mean that there has been a full discussion.I don’t know why I’m shocked by such narcissism at this point, but it is breath taking how often this happens.

Perhaps others have a say on the matter, or perhaps someone who lurks finds that it is a topic that he/she cares to comment on.It would be nice if more people decided to come comment and engage on the blog and people who jump off the “I Told Ya So Express” can really kill potential growth here.

The blog doesn’t revolve around one person, or even two.If that’s all that want to comment that’s ok too, but at least try to be a place where a diversity of perspectives can be found.

Believe it or not, sometimes I raise an issue to see if someone has a fresh take that is outside the amen corner-vent-er-rama that so often takes place here.

Go Hawks!!

By HB Ando

December 18, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this

New Hacks’ blog up. Go to intro on Hawks’ home page, link to intro article, and find second submission ‘Recovery’, under recent posts, on the right hand side, mid-way down

By ray

December 18, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this

Kirk,

You asked for a name, you got one. You asked for more, now you’ll get more. Larry Drew is very available. I challenge you hear and now though, to find the post in which I said it’s time to get rid of Woodson. I’ve complained plenty about his decisions, but haven’t said “fire him.” So your point about thinking through this process of firing him and hiring somebody else is (as I already said), a moot point between us. Kindly address somebody who has advocated such things.

I talked plenty about getting rid of him while it was still “up in the air.” That was several months ago, which happened to be the same time that I offered suggestions as to who should replace him. And at the time, all the names I came up with were available. So your attempts to discredit my “we’ve already covered this” comments are off base.

AGAIN, I have not advocated firing him at all this season, though I have b!tched plenty about some of the things he has done. And yet, I haven’t screamed half as loud as some others. So AGAIN, please do show who has called for his dismissal, then address that with them, eh? You seem to either forget who it was, or you’re afraid to call out names. I mean, it could only be one of 6 or 7 people, right? Shouldn’t be that hard.

As for the team playing above .500 and getting back into the playoffs, I’d expect Woody to get an extension, and it does not matter whether any of us like it or not. And he’d deserve it, too, by all accounts. Some of us actually do think that far (and farther). Just like some of us have wondered (repeatedly) about extensions for JJ, Marvin, Horford, and what to do with Bibby and the pg position as a whole. I seem to recall that you weren’t so ready to engage in such talk earlier. Everytime, your answer was “we won’t know until the season ends.” Now you want to talk future…heh, heh…yawn is right.

But here’s another piece of the future that you conspicuously avoid: The ASG and Belkin are due a court ruling sometime in February, assuming another round of appeals does not ensue. I feel that all things are predicated on the outcome of this trial. Now. Are you prepared to jump into the possibilities? Or am I “casting suspicion” again?

Finish up with you tomorrow. 0430 hrs comes fast, and I have to be suited and booted by 0445.

By HB Ando

December 18, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Hey Kirk, the AJC has set up a new “Fan Blog” for the Atlanta Hawks. It’s open to everyone who wants to talk about the Atlanta Hawks.

Ray and Ando are the lucky fans who were selected to author the new blog.

Please feel free to join the rest of the Hawks’ fans, with this new forum for discussion. The Hacks will be in attendance tomorrow night, for both the game, and the “town hall meeting”. Will you be there?

By ray

December 18, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

Well, Kirk it’s not narcissism. The simple fact is, not many people talk to you. I realize this is your claim to fame, however.

And since you throw your pet “self-styled analyzers”, “Ruling Rules”, “6 or 7 people” comments out there, one can only guess at who you might be addressing. You want to address somebody? Call their name. Okay, so that’s not your style, for whatever reason.

Every now and again, a person like Funny pops up and actually notices. Other than that, any dialogue generally comes from Doc, Sautee, Ando or myself. I can only wonder who the other two or three evil “6 or 7” is. What is so hard to understand is the fact that you get this feedback, then complain about it.

You can keep hating all you want. You can keep trying to change the climate to your liking. Sekou’s blog is popular as hell because he is a great beat writer, and many of us here really enjoy spending time here, and with each other. Nothing here can kill the growth of this blog. Not even you.

But…as my friend BA suggested, I’m going to stop wasting my time trading posts with somebody who doesn’t really want to talk basketball. Can’t promise I won’t make light-hearted fun of you. :) Perhaps you can ply your trade and the New Hawks Hacks fan blog (now you can target the authors! Oh glee!).

Good luck with the thermostat in here. Adios…

By Big Ump

December 19, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this

To most of the so called expert. Please quite complaining about why Acie and Solo not playing. You and I don’t know what goes on in pratice because we are not there. Also the Woody bashing about his need to be fired. What about the rest of the coaches in the league who this year won and lost record is no better than Woody. Do you think they should be fired? As of this day the Hawks is fifth in the Eastern Division.

By HB Ando

December 19, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

Big Ump: proof that illiteracy has a home in the unedited internet blogosphere.

Babble on, dude…….

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 1:40 AM | Link to this

Brandon Roy: 52 points. Damn. Yeah it was against the Suns, but 52 points is still 52 points.

Cue rehashing of the 2006 draft.

By Mac-Town

December 19, 2008 3:23 AM | Link to this

The Hawks situation is still scary this year though. We are 15-10, but remember the 6-0 start was fueled by some unreal 3 pt nights and we have went 9-10 since mainly with wins against NBA Bottom feeders.

I see the same problems as last year.

Inconsistency lack of a good offensive scheme Woodson’s coaching no REAL low post game relying on jump shots careless ball handlin (particular by marvin and josh)

….we have got to improve on these things remember…even GREAT teams find something to work on, so I dont wanna hear people talkin about how I should be cool because we are 15-10 (like thats GREAT anyway).

Think about it……..we play games like this against the celtics and everybody thinks we are a top tier team, the next thing you know we

STRUGGLE against ANY TEAM (EVEN Bottom feeders that have)

1) People who can drive and get into the lame or 2) any sort of good/decent inside presence

we get exploited by RANDOM players on BAD teams who can do the things I previously mentioned.

I hope we can improve or things will unfold

By BA

December 19, 2008 4:12 AM | Link to this

kirknga, you’ve made some good points tonight. For the record, I’d want Eddie Jordan. But I’m an admitted fan of Woody, and like everybody else, I don’t think he’s going anywhere. My man cp pretty much is sick of Woodson. It’s all good.

Ray isn’t really a narcissist. You should check out the fan blog, those two are doing a bang-up job.

Oh yeah, and I don’t want Escobar moved either- good call. Hey, it’s Christmas, ya’ll!

By Clyde

December 19, 2008 4:12 AM | Link to this

Najeh Davenpoop refresh my memory. Who did we draft in the 06 draft and who was the GM that drafted him?

And yes Chris Paul made history the other night. Who did we draft ahead of him and who was the the GM that drafted him?

By Sean Williams

December 19, 2008 4:19 AM | Link to this

Yeah, Clyde’s the man!

ROLL TIDE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

By Joakim Noah

December 19, 2008 4:20 AM | Link to this

This guy Clyde really knows basketball.

ROLL TIDE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

By K.C. Cristian

December 19, 2008 6:18 AM | Link to this

If the Hawks want to win, it’s simple: MOVE WITHOUT THE BALL!

That offense stagnates far too many times.

By doc

December 19, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this

ouch najeh, i might have missed it on my boy roy if you hadnt posted it. that is one of the fun things when you play fantasy that you keep up with a lot of peripheral details.

BA, guess i got to agree with you on your post above. seems it was missed that i am not one of those crying for woody’s head but answered that there had been plenty of concerns about him all along with some very good coaches available during his tenure here that have come and gone to be successful elsewhere and very quickly,. many had made suggestions, ala karl and brown in their mid-year turnarounds in denver and memphis respectively. i think that might have happened last year here if the right person came in to really take the team over the top. it may happen here and with prevailing wisdom looks like it will so i can understand the patience in the long run. i too stated that kirk had made good points in the past as well as last night but it seems it was missed or ignored.

looking forward to tonight’s game to see how we respond after the loss to the c’s.

By K.C. Cristian

December 19, 2008 6:21 AM | Link to this

Bird fly and hawks need to move without the ball. Josh Childress was great at slashing and straddling that baseline. CUT WITHOUT THE BASKETBALL, please.

By Hms

December 19, 2008 6:25 AM | Link to this

Kirknga I would not get into a game of “Memory” with Ray. Out of sheer boredom and morbid curiousity I decided to archive the blogs from before Woodson was resigned to his current contract and found that the discussion about a potential replacement for Woodson even before Sund was hired, spanned the space of not one but several blogs. You would have to be absolutely blind to miss it or not participating at all. The only thing more interesting than that is that Ray quoted you nearly word for word on a couple of things right off the top of his head apparantly. I know he didn’t spend the time archiving like I did because he pumped out a what looks like a near 800 word essay for the hawk hacks blog all while arguing with you. Don’t know if the guy is long in the tooth as you say but he does seem to know what he’s talking about. I enjoy lurking quietly and watching these discussions all the same.

By doc

December 19, 2008 6:26 AM | Link to this

ando still cant find entry into your portal for the hack.

By KC Cristian

December 19, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this

Put it like this: IF the Hawks could pry assistant coach Phil Johnson away from the Utah Jazz combined with Head Coach Mike Woodson’s defensive strategies, the Hawks would win the NBA championship at least two years in a row. That’s how close they are; they’re at the cusp of greatness. A little fine tuning…and it’s on!

For now, the C’s will reign because they have it together.

By MannyT

December 19, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

doc I linked it before, but use the link below to get to the front page of

The New and improved Hawks Hacks

Hms Maybe ray did do all of that at the same time. That handle could be short for Rainman

793 words in that post. LOL

Clyde I’ll resist for a moment the BK baiting. Just remember no GM is perfect. You can bring this up every time Roy has a good game, which is quite often. However, would you rather be Chicago right now? They had Aldridge and swapped him for Tyrus Thomas.

Every team in the 2006 NBA draft that picked before Portland would probably take a do over.

It’s not like 2003 when all the early picks were strong except for Joe Dumars in Detroit. Free Darko ;-)

Mac-Town If your were objective about the 6-0 start, we played 4 of those on the road and 2 of those teams that we beat on the road are relative LOCKS for the playoffs (New Orleans, Orlando). The Hawks got off to a great start. Things got messy when Josh got injured.

Because this team has a real lust for the 3 ball, there will be some nights (like Boston) where it will hurt more than help and we will lose a few. There will also be some nights where the 3 ball will steal a few wins. It all works out in the long run.

We have played the best in the East very close at home and on the road. We don’t blow teams out. It has been said several times that the Hawks usually play to the level of their competition.

It is what it is until is ain’t. A rule of time.

BWAF

By dap01

December 19, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

Woodson is in so far over his head.

He has no answers, only blank looks from the bench.

It was good also to see JS camped out at the 3 point line again in crunch time.

No ball movement, no ball movement, no ball movement.

By doc

December 19, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

manny t was that 793 words on the first count or the second to confirm? OCD maybe in the medical history?

thanks for the link. i found it as i had time latter to walk through ando’s instruction. good comments there and a good post from our boys.

agree that the three can steal a game or two and already has in their fast start. 2 for 14 wont get it though 33% made which is all you have to do as a trade off would have made it into a laugher instead of a loss against the C’s.6 of 14 and we are golden. confidence and playing to win is the difference there.

look forward to the evening coming up. i might try some popcorn lorenzen style tonight. maybe we see you tonight manny t? be with the paler version of the dynamic duo.

By I MUS WRITE

December 19, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Ray….Whass up dude sumone stealing your identity huh? Horford vs Scola

Very good points- If Horford played next to Yao im sure he would have better numbers but if you look at the Pf’s that Scola plays against in the west they are better than 90% of the centers that Horford plays in the east……..think about it
Duncan,West,Stoudamire,Gasol,Aldrich,

My arguement was’nt that Scola was better or worse but how good is Horford

Horford’s my dude but He lacks an effective low post game, struggles on offense and is sumtimz turnover prone. He is a good defender and rebounder tho. I dont want to trade the guy or anything but 8-12 points isnt that hard to replace.

If we could get Stoudamire straight up for one of our forwards who would it be. That would be a hard on for me but sumone would go. (josh)

Is it me or is Josh still doing the same garbage he’s been doing for the last 4 years. losing the dribble, jacking up shots, bad turnovers, I thought going into his 5th season those things would be reduced greatly but i was wrong Im just wondering when the BBall IQ is gonna catch up with his athleticism -this is partially on the coach if he had more structure players wouldnt feel as if they were playing for And1 ……… Hold these guys accountable

By ray

December 19, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

I MUS WRITE,

You make a good point as well, and would I give up Josh for Stoudamire? Hate to say it, but the answer is YES.

As for Horford vs. Scola, I have a slightly different angle on the point I was trying to make, one that I don’t think I explained fully. You’re absolutely right, Scola’s power forward counterparts are more talented than the centers Horford is going against. My point was more along the lines of the fact that he is not going against them alone. He has Yao as back-up, a true center (and a big one). Horford’s back-up is a smaller (but higher-jumping) power forward. Yao is the big distraction that allows Scola to do his work, instead of having a defense focus on him. Horford has no such luxury. That, and we really don’t give him enough touches to score the kind of points I think he can score. Part of that can be attributed to the need for so many jumpshots in the backcourt….I also think Horford usually makes very good decisions with the ball. Better than Josh most days.

But I can’t take anything away from Scola. He’s a good player, and even Euro post player hatas gotta recognize that, LOL!

Can’t say much in Smith’s defense other than his positives outweigh his negatives, and the record alone reflects that. He still is making mistakes, and I agree that coaching plays a part in that. But only a part, not the whole. It’s on Josh to get it together. However, a little help from a big man coach wouldn’t hurt. Somebody has to do it, and I don’t think Woody is the guy. They may not be enemies, but he relationship is not exactly golden either.

By MannyT

December 19, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

doc I’ll be there tonight. Looking forward to the town hall.

If you go LoWright on someone with the popcorn, make sure you have an alibi so you are not the suspect of the prank.

My attention span is my best defense against OCD. I’m closer to the owl with the tootsie pop.

As for the 3 balls, we shoot them at a much better percentage than we shoot regular shots. We shoot 37.6% for 3s which yields 56.4% at scoring equivalent rate of 2 pointers. However, our love of the 3 ball changes the way we play the game. It usually doesn’t get Al involved in the offense because our 3s rarely come from passes out of the post. They come from perimeter plays with Bibby & Johnson. Beyond touches if you roll this into some of the conversation about Horford, Al has taken 188 shots while JJ has taken 158 3pt shots.

If you want the inside play to be better on offense, get them some touches. If you want the other team’s bigs to work harder during a game, force them to defend sometimes. I doubt they would fear a pick and roll with one of our big guys until we actually passed them the ball.

BWAF

By Astro Joe

December 19, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

MannyT, Amen!

When we do pass into the post, it seems like it is a designed play as opposed to being in the fabric of our offensive scheme. In other words, it doesn’t appear to come naturally to the players. We know that JJ’s iso set is built into the team’s offensive DNA. Just like the pick and pop play between Bibby and JJ. But running set plays for Al or Josh in the post? It feels more like home-cooked lasagne, something that you enjoy but get too infrequently.

Oops, was that me with another food analogy? Lunch time!

By doc

December 19, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

what i dont like about the three is that for this team there is no effort for the off side to crash the boards so it is one and done. too many times i see smith on the perimeter watching and then running back to play defense rather than moving towards the basket

i dont know if there is a stat for it but offensive rebounds after three point efforts might be revealing. this also serves into samuel angst with the three. me, with no low post presence we probably need to learn to live and die with it for now.

By ray

December 19, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

MannyT,

If you go LoWright on someone with the popcorn, make sure you have an alibi so you are not the suspect of the prank.

He’ll use the usual alibi: “It was done tongue in cheek.” Heh!

As to your comments about the bigs, that’s exactly why Horford is not averaging a double double. He was last year, but our offense was also a bit different then. Last year, our offense did not revolve around a lot of shots coming from the perimeter. Not even in the last 35 games of the season. But that’s how we do it this year.

Before I say this, understand that I’m not condemning Bibby. But I do recall saying that for him to be effective or at least maximize his effect on a game, he must shoot often. He is used to being a featured guard in the offense, as has been his niche since his days in Arizona. Consider a stat very similar to the one you presented: Horford has taken 188 shots to Bibby’s 151 3-point attempts (and his 335 shots overall). A guy who doesn’t get many touches to begin with doesn’t have much of a chance in a guard-oriented offense.

Hey, if that’s how we win and make our path to the promised land, then that’s how we do it, and condemnation thereof is hardly credible. But it’s silly to expect our bigs to do well in an offense that often ignores them, or is not designed to maximize their strengths.

By ray

December 19, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

Astro,

Now there’s food for thought! Heh, heh…

Doc,

Yeah, but you know why the rush to get back on defense….

By terrell barron

December 19, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

Is tonight’s game televised?

By O'brien

December 19, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

I’m an Al Horford fan. But this year, he is only averaging 11 pts, 8.5 rbs, 1.6 BPG .521 FG% and .713 FT%. He should have been ROY last year, but are these the kind of numbers we expected from him this year?

By terrell barron

December 19, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

Almost a double double every night from a 2nd year player? You’ve got to be kidding me. And it’s not all about stats, Obrien. Especially with Horford. He brings it, day in and day out. That kind of s** feeds off to the other players. If you dont see it, I dont know what your’re watching.

By terrell barron

December 19, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

To quote Lang Whitaker on Hawks.com: “to me the Hawks look comfortable in Woody’s system. Using that 2 man game with JJ and Bibby down the stretch. Pushing the ball in transition, and playing tough defense. (They held Boston 12 points below season avg) So yes, I think he’s the right Coach for the Hawks”. Agree or disagree?

By Astro Joe

December 19, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

terrell, I think Fox Sports South, tonight.

Tonight’s game is dangerous because the Warriors will definitely invite 3-point shots.. when instead, we should push for fast break opps and when that isn’t available, have Josh dominate in the low post. In fact, Josh Smith needs to have a monsterous game tonight… from the paint. Horford should draw Biedrins away from the goal and Smith should eat up Maggette, Jackson or whomever they have trying to play PF.

By I MUS WRITE

December 19, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Horford= hustle, energy,effort, yada yada yada………… O’brien to answer ur question -this is’nt what i expected. I expected more polished post moves and better moves off the dribble. The rebounds are down becuz we have morphed into a perimeter oriented team,To his credit the jumper is improved and he brings it nearly every night but look at the numbers…… 11/8/2

Those numbers dont describe a player people want to call “beast” or “boss” I dont see horford ever becoming a go to offensive type but he will be a solid player for years to come……15/7/4 maybe

Lets take off the rose colored glasses when it comes to Horford,I mean lets stop actn like he would’nt be involved in a trade for the right guy…..

Paul milsap was just as good as Horford as a rook /soph and i didnt see anyone on his jock. Milsap basicly played center when in the game becuz Okur drifts out of the lane alot for long jumpers

U guys say horford has to play center for us so he gets a pass……… no pass here, the offense doesnt run thru him so his job is basicly to get garbge /fast break point and play solid D against a weak conference of Centers. Seriously can sumone tell me when we started running the O thru horford becuz that i dont remember.

Would you do a

Horford/AC/2nd for Stoudamire/future pick

By MannyT

December 19, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

There’s a difference between and offense that moves the ball so several players touch it and one where one or two guys dominate the ball.

In either case, I still expect JJ to lead the team in shots. However, moving the ball gets more people involved and interested in the offense. If for no other reason than they might get to shoot/score due to a defensive breakdown.

If you run these same sets with Dwight Howard, he doesn’t get to touch the ball either. His numbers would go down, unless you made an effort to pass him the ball. He doesn’t have to shoot it every time, but it does mean the defense has to react to the ball in the post.

I.MUS No one on this team should be untouchable. However, you want to make sure you get a good deal and a better fit by trading. Sure I’d make the trade you mentioned if it were allowed, but the salaries are not even a little close.

Fit matters a lot. That is one of the adjustments Woody has made. You never saw AJ, Lue, or Salim playing the 2 man game with Joe. Bibby has the skills to make shots…kinda like what ray said. Gotta have the ball to shoot the ball.

ray In some ways we are a lot like the bad boy Pistons on offense (without the Laimbeer shooting.) Think about the PG complaints. In reality when Bibby goes out, our Joe plays the role of their Joe (Dumars) and kinda runs the point and makes assists while the microwave (now Flip) shoots until he hits or sits. When our cocky PG comes back in the game he scores 1st and gets many assists via shooters, not drivers.

Astro Sounds like you should have married Mama Celeste or one of her daughters to get that lasagne on a regular basis ;-)

BWAF

By terrell barron

December 19, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Imus, maybe for Amare, but not for Salim or Damon. And Imus, it’s hard for me to knock Horford’s offensive skills, or any other player for that matter, considering who they play for. Look what happened to Diaw, when he went to a team with an offensive minded Coach. Totally different player. He looked like garbage under Woodrow. Get off Horford’s you know what man. He’s doing the best he can, considering the circumstances. He plays in a JJ/Bibby 2 man game offense. Remember?

By Mike is back

December 19, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I see you made it to the big time, can you believe it, we got the world Champion Celtic fans hanging out on our blog, next thing you know Stuart Scott will pop in. heh heh   

People scoff at the idea of giving Acie and Solo more playing time in big games. How else are they going to develop if they are only used during garbage time, or when someone gets injured. The only way to develop these guys is to play them alone side the starters. Acie needs playing time with Bibby and Joe. Solo needs  playing time with AL and Smoove.  That way their obvious deficiencies are not that exposed.  You can give your starter a relief, and develop two of  your young upstarts on the bench.

What will make this team a more formidable foe, and make this team more complete is the development of a post game, which will create more spacing for our perimeter guys, and punish team for double and tripling teaming Joe. To do that, we need to evaluate your players and see who is better suited to fill that void.  

Hmmmm  Al 6’10”, Smoove 6’9”, Marvin 6’9”, Solo 6’10”, Zaza 6’11”, and Morris 6’11’. There is definitely no shortage of players to develop in the post, there just needs to be more commitment from the coaching staff.  The Hawks hire Mark Price as the shooting instructor and that is paying dividends, lets bring in someone to help developed the Bigs!!!!!!  

If you don’t develop the guys on your bench, then your starters will never get a break. That may work during the season, but come playoff time your dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Big Ump

December 19, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

To Ando. A hit dog always holler. I got to give you credit you are the biggest DUMMY on this blog. Yea buddy the internet do have dummies on the internet like you.

By O'brien

December 19, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Guys, I’m a big Horford fan, but I expected more from him this year. That being said, Terrell, you did raise a good point about Woody’s system (whatever that might be) and the effect it has on players. I wonder what percentage of the offensive plays (when he’s in the game) does Horford touch the ball.

By I MUS WRITE

December 19, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Terrell-when i said Stoudamire i meant Amare…….. No way in hell I trade for either one of the Marx brothers

As a matter of fact I cant think of one person on our roster excluding _(Mr I steal the money Claxton) that I would move for Salim/Damon

Ariose- where u at bruh. remember when i said it would be hard for Salim to find a roster this season…well i guess i was right - Euro bound- maybe he can go help josh pick his afro or sumthing

Really tho im concerned about moving or trading anyone we have in fear that they will pull a Diaw on us………………………….

If Ac or solo dont get atleast ten minutes im gonna scream- what better time -these guys play a wide open style which favors Ac’s penetrating abilities also they dont have massive bigs so Solo could bang sum folks around tonight.

Dam is it 5 yet….I gotta get outta this office-How many here have played this game …..all work complete for the day then u go talk to sum people or rearrange your desk to make time go by ……

Whew i know an hour or so has passed let me take a peak at the clock…….. WTF man!!!!! 13 minutes have elapsed

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH….. I need a beer

By ant banks

December 19, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

okay, we lost the boston game and we are 15-10. but with the next 7 games we could end up 22-10 at best and 20-12 at worse.

Next 7 games: Golden State, Detroit, Oklahoma, Chicago, Denver, at Indy, and at New Jersey.

We need to lock up a 4th or 5th seed to make it out of the 1st round.

Locking up a 6th seed will match us up with Orlando.

7th seed with Clevand

8th seed with Boston.

I would much rather match up a 1st round with Detroit.

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

Amare Stoudemire is one of the worst defensive players at his position in the entire league, and it’s still somewhat debatable to me whether he can really be the centerpiece of an offense without Steve Nash feeding him the ball. I’d be open to trading Horford for him, but not Josh Smith.

By Clyde

December 19, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

What this team needs right now is Mount Mutombo. We are too soft in the middle. Our frontline doesn’t scare anyone. We need Deke to come in to block shots and throw bows. People will think twice about driving the lane with Deke in the game.

Just like I said before we still have Al Horford but we still need a center.

By Astro Joe

December 19, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

MannyT, bait and switch. My wife (girlfriend at the time) cooked lasagne for me when we were dating. It was INCREDIBLE. I’m pretty sure I was shopping for a ring a few days later. In 13 years of marriage later, she maybe has cooked lasagne 3-4 times… at most.

I wonder how often Beyonce cooks lasagne for Jay-Z? Oh, heck, never mind. WTF am I talking about?

By ray

December 19, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

I MUS,

I’m not entirely sure what you were looking for in Horford, and this offense. The offense is perimeter oriented with JJ, Bibby, Marvin, and Flip getting lots of looks. Smith gets more looks than Horford as well (mostly because he just takes the ball and goes for shots).

I’d like Stoudamire. However, your argument is somewhat contradictory. The only reason I say this is because if Horford is as bland as you say, then who in their right mind would take him in trade for the wonderful Stoudamire? Doesn’t make sense. And giving up a pick as well? It would have to be a low pick. Nah, if Horford isn’t the bomb diggity, then no way Phoenix gets lulled into that one. If they did, I’d be very worried….worried that they recognize Horford’s ability….and we didn’t.

It would be interesting to see Stoudamire try and make it getting as few touches as Horford does in this system. Betcha his numbers wouldn’t be any better, or only slightly. JJ and Bibby would take the same number of shots, and nothing changes.

However, I could see Stoudamire playing better in tandem with Horford. Why? Stoudamire has no issues dunking the ball, something Smith seems to have forgotten these days (and something, oddly enough, others have mocked him for being able to do….strange is it not?). Smith starts throwing it down like Amare does, and suddenly this isn’t a conversation anymore…

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

Wow!! Stoudamire for Josh… no way… So I guess Smith’s bone head play at times negate all the positives he brings to our team.. I think Josh is the only high intensity player we have, with Za Za a close 2nd. Sure, Big Al brings his lunch every game. However, he plays to nice, or happy (could be youth). This might not make sense to some but he kinda gives me that Andruw Jones feel. Andruw would stand in with a grin and strike out and smile. Andruw:Plate:: Al:Post..

I see Al trying to develop that Pat Ewing type game.. relying heavily on that 8-15ft. jumper, he fades with it even. Amare has developed his shot nicely. As well as a threat to drive and attack the rim with vengeance.

But no way no how would I give up Josh and his defensive presence, which alone makes would be scorer take heed.

Personally I would package Al…

By Ken Strickland

December 19, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

Let me take this opportunity to wish all of you a very happy and safe holiday season. You guys have become my extended family and I love you all. GOOD LUCK TO THE HAWKS TONIGHT.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

Amare would play our high post sets well…

Sometimes we are overly aggressive on d leaving the lane wide open…

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

Acie.. in da building…

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Personally I would keep Al. Last year people in here wouldnt have thought twice about keeping him now he in not putting up big numbers we are willing to consider a guy that had major surgery, lost a step and has a huge contract. Ill pass, did I mention how great Amare will make up defensively, thats cause he has no D.

Way to play there AC.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

I like when AC plays like this, aggressive to the hole.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

Flip is so turnover prone these days.

By cp

December 19, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this

Woodson continues to let Flip act as a pg and Flip continues to turn the ball over. Let Law handle the ball and set up the players. Its obvious that Flip should not be the primary ball handler on the court.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Well no one better complain about Woody not playing the bench

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

Im glad Woody put Solo in cause ZAZA not hitting the boards tonight.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

In judging Amare on the defensive end you have to consider the conference in which he plays as well as the team he plays for.. under coach toni, he developed bad habits. however his team has never been a great unit collectively…

I think he would be a better player here… he was enthused about coming here during those draft day rumors.. but yea that contract hefty.. but i cant speak on his injuries..

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

nice half so far for AC…5 dimes

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this

Cp it seem like AC is the primary handler but he is making dumb mistakes

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this

Bibby big on the boards

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

it looks like josh has gotten the message… taking the ball to the basket to finish to finish strong..

I wouldnt mind seeing Solo in the starting lineup with Josh at 3, Al at 4, and Lo at 5…

Might have helped against the Leprechaun’s..

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this

Bigdave I got a question. If i remember correctly one the reasons JJ left the suns was because he and Amare butt heads a couple of times not to mention JJ wanted to be the man (which I think he is). Do you think Amare can coexist here knowing all of that.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

Cp i mean flip is making dumb decisions….

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

JJ IS MAKING ME FRUSTRATED BECAUSE HE NEEDS TO SHOOT MORE AND DRIVE MORE……WE ARE TRAILING THE FRIGGIN WARRIORS

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

NO EFFORT AT ALL…..THIS IS WHAT I HATE WHEN A TEAM STARTS DRINKING THEIR OWN KOOLAID TOO MUCH AND LETS A TEAM THEY SHOULD STOMP COME BACK FROM TEN DOWN…..TALK BOUT WOODY ALL YOU WANT BUT WE DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE HUDDLE.

By cp

December 19, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

Josh is killing us right now with the turnovers. He is lofting out there right now. No type of defensive energy. Joe cant buy a bucket. Belineli(spelling) is gettin anything he wants right now… No type of defensive effort from the whole team actually. hawks4life trust me I knew exactly who you meant lol.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

Marvin in the house!!!

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

Didnt know they were feuding, but I think Joe is at the stage in his career where he realizes what you need to be successful in the league. That 1st 2nd and 3rd option is what you gotta have..

By cp

December 19, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

Wright was doing as he pleased in the first half too.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this

So far my player of the half is Belinelli for the Warriors and Bibby/Law for us.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

The reason we are down right now is simple: turnovers Atl 12 GSW 5

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

Cp honestly what Wright is doing in the first half is what i expect from Jsmoove, points in the paint, off rebs, and just using his length and athletism to impact the game.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

Looks like Boston is suffering from a mild let down too, only up 2 to the Bulls.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

Wright is p** on Smith.

By ray

December 19, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

This is the second time I’ve watched Marvin finish with moderate-to-heavy contact. I love what I’m seeing with this guy. He’s good for 25 or better tonight, unless we pull our usual stunt: go away from the player that’s hottest in the game, unless his name is JJ or Bibby.

Bibby has driven the lane at least 7 times tonight. Either somebody gave him a Red Bull, or the Warrior defense really sucks that bad. Or he’s finally just setting the example by putting a different kind of pressure on the defense. Whatever it is, I like it.

What in the devil is wrong with Josh Smith? He’s playing like a zombie out there…

By Sautee

December 19, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

Josh looks like he’s afraid to jump.

And that’s frightening.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

IM SOOOO DAM FRUSTRATED RIGHT NOW…

By ray

December 19, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

At least they’re up. We’re down.

By cp

December 19, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this

hawks4life great points. Wright plays within himself. He isn’t jacking up jumpers or trying to take guys off the dribble. He is in the paint working. You are correct, this is how Josh should be playing. Our defense is flat out pathetic. Evans is stinking it up again. Pachulia just let Morrow grab a board over him then go back up for the points. Law and Solo played well in the first half and I haven’t seen them since.

By Sautee

December 19, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

One of these teams has only won 7 games.

We seem to play to the level of whomever we face. When will we start dictating what happens in these games, particularly against inferior teams?

The answer is when we get an inside game. But that HAS to be part of the scheme.

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this

Flip Murray f-cking sucks. Please take him out and put Acie Law in.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this

WTH just happen to end the third quarter? Ok I would say AC shouldve played more instead of Flip tonight. I try to stand behind my team but he blew that one. Five assist no turnovers, in seven mins.

By cp

December 19, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this

Its amazing that even if Flip is playing like garbage he still gets in over Law… Pachulia is playing terrible and still in over Solo. Woodson will go with vets regardless of how poor they are playing. Pachulia, Evans, and Flip have been horrible tonight. I rather see what Mario can do at this point.

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Atleast JJ is awake now after all its the 4th quarter.

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

Well, it’s nice to see Flip hitting shots now in the 4th. Clearly he read my previous comment between quarters, and that inspired him to play better.

By cp

December 19, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

Even with those 3’s I dont like how Flip was playing. The guy has been chucking and turning the ball over all night.

By Sautee

December 19, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

OK, all you Josh haters gotta admit… that was good and sound decision-making. Fake the 3, drive and kick to Flip for a 3. Excellent.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

josh has always been an underrated passer…

boy.. flip makes me nervous.. flip is a superstar in his own little world..
we need his contributions however, its a bit careless..

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

Im not a Josh hater, I want everyone to succeed as a hawk but sometimes he a bone-head honestly.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

is mike hurt..?

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

joe gets no calls that other stars get..

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Finally they are clicking

By ray

December 19, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Get rid of Horford, eh? Plays too nice, has no real energy?

We must not all be watching the same team…

Something is really wrong with Josh. I don’t know if it’s above or below the neck line. Something tells me he still isn’t back to his old self yet. I mean, this was NOT the guy we saw in the first 4/5 games. Not at all. That Josh Smith was averaging 14 points, 10 boards, 3 assists and 2 blocks per game.

Even then, this is what you love about Josh Smith: He turns the ball over 5 times (and I can’t stand it), then proceeds to make one smart play after another, gathering up 6 assists.

Sautee, you’re right. Josh looks like he’s afraid to jump…even on defense where he usually skies like crazy, just to get a chance at blocking a shot. Something just ain’t right here…

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

we should run our high post sets through josh…

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

Josh has had at least 3 nice dimes in the 4th quarter where he faked like he was gonna try to score and hit an open guy for a shot. You can hate on his decision making every now and then if you want. But can we PLEASE put an end to this “low basketball IQ” complaint? You simply cannot find more than 5 or 6 forwards in the game who make the passes he can. Period. With better coaching his decision making will improve, and a lot more of those passes will find their mark.

By ray

December 19, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Another great play by Josh…faking the shot, dishing to Marvin who suddenly has developed an appetite for dunks.

I’m telling you, it has to be the Chad Johnson ‘do….

7 assists for Josh as his penance for committing turnovers continues. Hate him if you wanna, he has tied Bibby for the team lead in assists….

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 19, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this

Good teams find a way to close out teams in the 4th quarter against inferior teams, even when they are not playing their A game, and even when those inferior teams have played them close most of the game. The Hawks have gotten it done in the 4th quarter today. That is really encouraging to see.

By cp

December 19, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

Flip finally got it going in the 4th quarter but it would be nice to see the guy pass the ball every once in a while. A few times I dont think he even looked to pass to anyone. We need his scoring off the bench but as bigdave put it, he can be careless.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

Never said Al had no energy; “sure Al brings his lunch every game”, or to get rid of him, however he settles at times for a finesse game on the offensive end…
I assume we’re watching the same team.. Someone ask which forward, Josh or Al, would you package for Amare. In my opinion it would be Al..

By hawks_4_life

December 19, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Ill take it!!! Better than the alternative!!

By Sautee

December 19, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

Poop

Well said, my man, well said.

Ray

That ‘do is more like JR. Reid at UNC in th 90’s.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Im strictly critiquing his offensive game, and I just don’t think he is a polished post player. We broke camp wanting to play through him down low.. I just don’t see his offensive progression. Im not ruling out our offensive sets being the problem here where he starts off 10-15 ft. from the basket.. However this might be due to the fact that he hasn’t taken that next step down low and coach trust Josh down there more for inside baskets…

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

Way to bounce back from another heart breaker…

By ray

December 19, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Najeh,

I don’t think anybody could have said that better. Even a Josh Smith hater can’t dog that argument without saying something totally nonsensical. Heh…that’s not to say that an attempt won’t be made…

Marvin had an excellent game. Excellent. So proud of him, and hope to see more performances like that from him. Not necessarily married to the stats, but the finishing aggressively, and in traffic.

Bibby did a wonderful job of actually initiating the offense and distributing. Masterful.

Good game for the Hawks, and good pull-back after letting the Warriors breathe for a moment or two.

By Melvin

December 19, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Great bounce back win for the Hawks. It was a tight game thru 3 qrts but the Hawks clamp down and handle their business in the 4th. Good to see Flip get his groove back. Slow start for Joe but he turn into Joe Cool in the 2nd half and put the team on his back with his scoring. Nice all around game by Marvin. Like Ray said, it must be the hair do b/c he has been playing some good ball of late. JSmoove was a little shaky in the 1st half committing 5 turnovers but he bounce back in the second with good def and hustle along with 7 helpers. AL and Bibby was solid. Funny how Acie played 7mins in the 1st half and produce 5 assists and didn’t see the floor in the 2nd half….Oh my Woody, you are a funny dude…. Also, Solo made the most of his playing time with 7pts in less than 7mins… Get him some more playing time…

By Melvin

December 19, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

Dang, I wish we could have signed Kristic. Nice move by OKC…. Oh well, I say we bring Childress back home before the playoffs. MO, pick another number. It’s time for the real NO.1 to put on that Hawks jersey….

By Melvin

December 19, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

Poop, ditto your 9:40 post… I’m hoping that this is a signed that this team has turn the corner….

By cp

December 19, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Im starting to think Law is going to be involved in some type of package. Woodson clearly prefers to go to his vets which is hurting Laws development. When he plays well he still gets glued to the bench. I wouldn’t be shocked if he did not last the whole season here. He played well in his limited minutes tonight. He was aggressive, got anywhere on the court he wanted, played solid d, and set up his teammates well but still couldn’t get any minutes in the second half. Did Law try to get with one of Woodsons daughter’s because the guy acts like he just cant find a way to get him on the court.

By bigdave

December 19, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this

Hmmm… It is like Acie is getting showcased out there..

By Harry Hawk

December 19, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

Ya can’t find more than five forwards that can make some of the passes that Josh can make, but ya sure can find five forwards who aren’t crazy enough to try the ridiculously bad passes that Josh makes.

Until Josh reins in some (not all…nobody’s perfect and I like the aggressiveness) of those crazy passes, he’ll still be that risk/reward guy that makes us cringe/jump out of our seats and shout “Hell yeah!” When the man calms down a little and focuses (like he did in the fourth), he is a huge factor that very few teams can account for. That’s what he’s getting paid the big bucks for.

By Adam

December 19, 2008 10:39 PM | Link to this

Was at the game and just read briefly through the comments…

Bibby is such a tremendous liability on defense that he was kept out for the entire 4th, and it’s no coincidence that the Hawks outplayed the Warriors, especially on defense, with Murray in for him. That’s why Murray stayed in the game. The difference was palpable from the 4-minute mark in the 3rd from the rest of the game. Bibby will continue to have trouble against teams that run or run even moderately intricate offensive schemes.

The truth is, everyone was distributing well, and watching Law out there, even for a limited period of time, I felt confident that he could run this offense. He just needs more playing time, and I don’t see a reason why he can’t play more with Murray while JJ and Bibby rest. JJ will run out of steam if Woodson doesn’t figure out a way to spell him as the season unfolds.

All in all, tonight was a great effort from Marvin as well as the bench, and the Hawks’ focus late in the game more than made up for the sloppy play that plagued the previous two quarters.

By The Truth

December 19, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

Can anybody but me see the different chemistry of the Hawks when Flip is in the game? Flip has more range to his game then Bibby. Flip will adjust his game according to the defense. Bibby will only distribute and/or spot up for the jump shot. In a previous blog I mentioned about his one-dimensional game. When he is mixed with JJ, they are a jump shooting tandem. When both are on their game, we are lethal. When JJ or Bibby or both are off, we are inconsistent. The problem with the Hawks is that their whole offense goes through these jump shooters. However, when Flip plays PG, he neutralizes JJ game. Flip has the ability to adjust his game according to what JJ is doing. If we need points in the paint, he is capable. If we need a spot up jump shooter, he is capable. If we need penetration and distribution, he is capable. These are the same attributes that people see in Acie but because of his limited minutes, he is still green. If Flip would limit his turn-over ratio, then he would be the answer to our inconsistent problems. This is assuming that Woody made the rotation adjustment and we all know that would be a stretch.

By doc

December 19, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this

marvin is becoming the finisher at the rim for this team. got to respect the way he has brought his total game up this year.

najeh, yes it was a game that we could have thrown away last year, instead they gathered them selves and finished the way they started. still dont understand why they quit working to get inside. in the first period it seemed like smith, horford and williams had done most of the scoring. it was like they flipped off the switch.

though i cant quote sund it seems like it is becoming apparent that speedy will go out as a retiree soon and his insurance package will help the team financially as the season winds down. viola there is less concern about the bottom line as the trade deadline approaches. forget all the speculation the trade of bibby for now unless something really special comes up. we are well over the cap now in monopoly money. subtract about 10 to 11 mil from that as the true investment.

been thinking recemtly that all estimates for the hawks victories will be off by a significant amout say underestimated by 10 to 20 % easy. already there are six teams that have thrown in the towel on the season fired coaches without hiring any real names to cover the open seat to remain competitive or ready themselves for the next year. it is kind of like six teams doing what the bulls and the heat did last year tanking it. all this has occurred and it is all weeks before the holidays.

what that means is the teams that stay competitive will have an easier time of it this year and their records will show it. the fired coach brigade doesnt even include the not ready for prime time teams of memphis and golden state and the debacle known as the clippers. you can just about carve nine teams off the list for playoff spots this year. they will be pure fodder for teams going forward as the competitive teams get more so and the poor teams show less and less cohesion as their seasons blow up. all spells a huge difference in win totals.

By doc

December 20, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

guess i forgot the bobcats on my list of no chance for playoffs list that had not made a coach change. throw in he pacers and it looks like about ten teams that dont look to have a chance. philly is the only one of that group to look like it has any life at this juncture.

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 20, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this

With each passing day I don’t feel so bad about the Hawks getting owned on the home-and-home with the Nets earlier this year. Devin Harris is straight up insane. 41 points, 13 dimes today against Dallas.

By Ed

December 20, 2008 1:29 AM | Link to this

Acie Law…5 dimes & 1 turnover in 7:40. Are you kidding me…Woody can’t find more time for him. He should be playing significant minutes & as Acie develops so would the Hawks chances down the road this year.

By ray

December 20, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

If Acie gets packaged, then my question is what are we doing about the future of the pg position? And please don’t tell me “re-sign Bibby.” That’s short-term future, not long-term. And then who would be his back-up anyway? Unless of course, the goal is to get a better than 7th or 8th seeding, hope to get past the first round of the playoffs, and stay that way for a few years…

The bigger question is who does Acie get packaged with, and for what? May as well begin the speculation…but wait, it’s not February yet, lol!

By doc

December 20, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

ray, the expectations have changed quickly in my mind. the goal is to get the number four seed and to put detroit down during the regular season as they might be the five, this team has begun to make a believer out of me for more than the 8 seed especially as other teams tumble and self destruct by injury or by firing coaches so early in the season. some could still reverse the trend with a long winning streak.

one has to be very optimistic about getting home court and advancing. definitely the bar has been reset and as i discussed above consideration of elite 50 game win status is part of the story. how do we start? tomorrow, by whipping the pistons and removing their stygma at the phillips.

By I MUS WRITE

December 20, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

“Your argument is sumwhat contradictory”

Is It?…………. Ray- Never said Horford was bland, He’s a solid player but compared to Amare he is inferior in every category except DEFENSE.

Stoudamire 1. Better jumper

2.More athletic( Note the dunk in Pryzbillas mug)

• This man hung 37/14 on the great Tim Duncan in the playoffs as a rookie….. Al has maybe 2 20+ games *

The reason they would want Al is becuz Amare wants out and he does’nt fit Porters slow it dwn half court style. Lets not forget that Phoenix offered Amare to us for the 3 and 11 picks 07………… Which equal out to -Horford and Acie

They were willing to trade him then for 2 unproven rooks but now they wont -Come on Ray!!

Horford Zaza Solo are the only bigs I let go for Amare……. Josh and Marvin no way- Marvin is becoming a really good yung player and Smoove is Smoove ……..He’ll let ya dwn sumtimes with dumb plays but respond with 4 blocks and 3 steals in a half, we would really need Smooves D if Amare were here.

Acie Law may become a Billups type player. Billups was a below averag pg his first few years but finally got it together….. AC reminds me of him or either Mark jackson- I hope we dont get rid of him and he becomes a stud sumwhere else

By Samuel

December 20, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

I missed the game but I am happy with the outcome. We are in first place with a chance to go 2 up on Detroit.

Acie Law will probably be a backup the rest of his career. He’s a decent player but no one you want to hand a team over to. He can’t shoot and is not a “great” defender so he’s a backup.

You guys kept saying Woody was doing Salim wrong and all he needed was PT. We’ll he’s unemployed and nobody is chomping at the bits to get him. Acie is somewhat better but no by much im afraid.

I say sign Bibby to another 2 or 3 years and draft another,preferably one who can shoot. Bibby is only 30 years old. 4 years younger than Nash, 5 years younger than Kidd and 1 year younger than Ginobli. And a better record than all three. He’s getting confortable here and the team is playing well.

Yes our goal should be to go in as a 4-6 seed and win a first round series. That would be a tremendous accomplishment. We can continue to build on that.

NBA Awards after the First Quarter if the 08-09 Season

[http://bleacherreport.com/articles/94476-nba-awards-after-the-first-quarter-of-the-08-09-season]

By Samuel

December 20, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Let me try that again

(http://bleacherreport.com/articles/94476-nba-awards-after-the-first-quarter-of-the-08-09-season)

By bigdave

December 20, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Acie can get wherever he wants on the court…
I remember when Tony P. had no jumper, but it came along.. But he is a threat to take you to the cup at ease.. Acie has similar abilities, however he gets to the basket looking to kick it out and not to finish… Acie will be a nice guard in this league…

By The Truth

December 20, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

As much as I would dislike the notion, The-Trade-Acie-Theory is beginning to make sense. Given our pg situation with an aging Bibby who will most likely not be re-signed, I have been baffled as to why Acie, who was hailed as our future pg hasn’t seen more minutes even against a losing team like the Warriors. It is apparent that Flip is the recipient of quality pg minutes behind Bibby. Woody has said many times before that it takes 3 years for a rookie to complete his learning curve of maturation in to the NBA. As with our other first round rookies (Marvin, 2-Joshes and Al), they have seen sufficient playing time so their worth could be evaluated. These players have emerged to be the keepers for the team. Remember, management had every intention of re-signing Childress but he opted out. AL will likely be resigned based on his minutes and performance. However, first-round player Sheldon saw very limited playing time and ultimately was traded. Remember, Woody sparingly showcased him and never overly exposed him in the lineup. Apparently, this is also the same fate of Acie. This is the sign of trade bait. Just as with Sheldon, maybe the plan is to package Acie with some other Hawk player(s) such as ZaZa, Solo or Morris for a more experience but younger pg. It least this scenario is logical. Right now Woody’s rotation for the future makes no sense.

By DecDawg

December 20, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

I have to disagree with Acie being a career backup. The only difference between Acie and Rondo is that Rondo was given a chance. The knock on him was always “shooting” and “defense”. Now while Rondo still has to grow in both areas, he’s significantly better than he was at both due to opportunity.

The biggest difference is that the system(coach, schemes, veteran leadership, etc.) in Boston has enabled Rondo to grow. While the system (coach, schemes, lack of veteran leadership, etc.) in Atlanta is not designed to help young players grow. If Acie gets an opportunity in a system designed for growth with a coach that WANTS to help the young guys get better, he will be an effective starting guard.

By Steve Belkin

December 20, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

Suckers.

By Hawks Fan In New Orleans

December 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

For all those Celtics players - yelling ‘it ain’t a rivalry’ how come they are so shook to play us? The past to 2 games were so close that the Hawks would have won them with equittable officiating. The Celtics dominating the Hawks just ain’t happening and when we start getting respect fom the refs, the tide will change….Woody has to either develope an offensive brain, turn the offensive reins over to his assistants or we need to can him simple as that - he is a reactionary coach and can’t develope talent. Remember how Fratello help Nique develope? He needs to assist Horford, Acie , Solo and Morris and continue to coach games at a high level. In short - Woody has his work cut out for him.

By kirkinga

December 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

Another win for the still surprising Atlanta Hawks!

Very happy to read the positive and, I must say, constructive criticism of the game and team.I know these comments come after a win, but the tenor is more reflective of the teams current position IMHO.

I have to agree with Samuel’s comment about Bibby’s age and contrasting his age to that of some well respected older players.I also believe the point about Salim is a good one.

I am, remain a fan of Salim. But his failure to hold down a position in San Antonio was a giant red flag for me. His failure there cannot be rationally called a coach-problem.

I believe no matter the sport, reserves usually get the playing time they deserve.Those who perform well tend to get more time. Those who come in and play fair-to-middlin or worse, don’t get the time.

It is up to Acie to play at a level that forces Woodson to play him.Horford was a rookie but his play forced Woodson to play him and keep him on the floor. So far, Acie does not stand out on a consistent basis in any facet of the game.

Playing time is earned, not given as many pro Acie comments seem to overlook.

Go Hawks!!

By kirkinga

December 20, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Beware those that now are readjusting their expectations for this team upwards by a large degree. This is a mistake, a big, big mistake. Interestingly, many of the same people made the same mistake of over ambitious expectation when ASG took over the team and still haven’t gotten over that mistake. A pattern emerging perhaps?

My expectations are the same today as they were at the start of the season. The basis of all of our preseason expectations have not changed, nothing has been added to this team, nothing subtracted.

I still expect the Hawks to win, if healthy, 40-45 games. I still expect that if they make the playoffs, it will be a challenge, and their seed will be 7th at best.Same players, same coaches, same expectations.

Curiously enough, those who are retroactively raising their expectations seem to failed to tell us why they were so very very wrong in the first place? Why are you having to readjust expectations now? It feels like cheating to me. :)

I believe when it comes to preseason analysis and offseason activity, you make your prediction and stick to it. Then come May, or June, you evaluate whether the team met, exceeded, or fail to meet expectations and whether the moves made during the offseason were correct or not.

It’s a very long season in the NBA, too many peaks and valleys, fortunes change quickly.

Those who want to now say that the Hawks are now expected to have home court advantage when they didn’t expect it previously, are doing more to justify their future negative comments than match their expectations to the team.

Folks, give the Hawks a chance to exceed your expectations for more than 1/4 season. Let them do well and exceed the expectations of about 80% of those who made a prediction at the start the season.

Raising the expectation high now is a setup for failure on one hand, and a denial of achievement on the other.

The Hawks need to establish that they have become a winning team first, then we can more realistically raise our expectations them to have home court in the playoffs.

It’s ok to hope, I hope they maintain the 4th seed, or even overtake Orlando. I do not expect either.If they do finish this season 3rd or 4th, then next season I will adjust my expectations upwards, maybe, depending on the offseason.

Go Hawks!!

By Nel

December 20, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

About Al Horford:

Al is very well disciplined, therefore he plays the way Woodson wants he to play; mostly good defense and rebounding, not much offense since this is reserved for the perimeter players specially JJ and Bibby.

He is not averaging over 10 rebounds per game and more ppg,because his’s not allowed to crash the offensive glass on a regular basis due to Woodson forcing him to play transition defense even when we have needed to rebound the ball so badly. It’s frustrating to watch how quicky Al and many times Josh run back on defense instead of attacking the offensive boards using their great athletic abilities. If allowed I’m sure they’d be two of the best offensive rebounders of the league giving the team more second scoring opportunities without sacrificing good defense.

Since our offense has become a little too 3 pointers oriented, and as Sautee has mentioned, JJ would rarely pass the ball to Al after he’s fought hard for position, unless the clock in running out, his offensive effectiveness will continue to suffer. He’s shown he can score.

Horford is such an excellent team player, that he’s always a little too unselfish which sometimes ends up hurting the team. When he gets the ball in the paint he’s got to try to score instead of passing. He is a very good defensive player who can block shots when he is not afraid of fouling. Look at his shot blocking lately.

By terrell barron

December 20, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Woody’s rotation for the future makes no sense? lol!!! What about his rotation of the past? lol!!

By MannyT

December 20, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

Great players can rise above the system and stand out. Good players can be supressed by a system. LeBron can be great on any team, Ben Wallace could not.

Example 1 - Boris Diaw is a good player. Here, he was held back by the system. They wanted him to be more of a perimeter player. He is in fact more of an inside player who did much better in Phoenix and shows signs of early success in Charlotte as an inside player.

Example 2 - Hedo Turkoglu. By changing coaches and adding a guy to defend the PF, Hedu got to play more SF and increased his scoring from 13.3/game to 19.5 while getting more rebounds and assists. I don’t think he finally became great in his 8th year in the league. He got a better match between the coaching and his skills.

Don’t give up on AC yet, He will be fine if the system uses his skills better. It is difficult for him to shine when he plays with Flip. Their games are similar enough that both cannot thrive at the same time.

Samuel here is your link to yourself on Bleacher Report

I can’t see the Zach Randolph thing at all. He is doing well with the Clips and he did well with the Knicks. Last season in 32 mins/game he was at 17.6 points and 10.3 rebounds. I can live with the other picks 20 games in…even Woody. Let us not mistake that for an endorsement of him ;-)

BWAF

By MannyT

December 20, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Kirknga It is very reasonable to call folks on adjusting their expectations, but it is also unreasonable to expect people not to change expectations based on additional information.

For example - If you thought the Hawks would win 20 games on the season and they have won 15 before Christmas, it is not a shock for that estimate to be revised upward.

This is similar to estimating the time for a trip and changing it due to an accident or better travel conditions. Granted you were inaccurate at the start, but to stick with that inaccuracy does not make you any better off. Just a poor estimator of the situation as it plays out.

FYI - I started the season estimating 44 wins. While I have not given it deep thought, it looks like the actual win number may go higher than that. Not hedging my bet, just acknowledging that the team is playing better than expected so far…which is a great thing for the fan in me.

I believe doc mentioned the number of coaches that have been fired as a factor in changing the landscape. That is a very reasonable piece of data to use in modifying an estimated win total as I would expect all of those teams to do a little worse than expected.

In a similar manner, if you told me that any team fired it’s coach during the season, I would suspect that the team underperformed. That underperformance aids the records of other teams. Sure I expected some coaches to get fired, just not as many as we have seen so far.

That’s my 2 cents.

BWAF

By The Truth

December 20, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

As much as I criticize Woody, to his credit, he is playing the hand that’s been dealt to him by management. When you think about it, Woody does not have any choice but to play his best players to try to win every game. Management dealt him a 2-year contract with the expectation to improve upon his playoff run last season. The contract was not meant to build for the future, it was meant to WIN NOW. In other words, Woody future is NOW. He was dealt an urgency-to-win-now hand. With a hand like that, as a coach, you don’t have the luxury of developing young players. You have to play your most experience players and forget about the future. AL was a ready-made and does not fit the category. For Woody to keep his job, he must at least advance to the second round in the playoff. Anything short of that, he is fired and he knows that. If that happens, Woody can have an excuse of blaming it on his 2-contract as the reason why Acie was not developed. I’m wondering how any coach under those circumstances could do any different. This point is only to explain his rotation and not his coaching style. That is an entirely different subject.

By kirkinga

December 20, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Manny T,Interesting take on how a coach’s system can be determinative of certain players performances. I think there is some validity to that point.

I would argue that a player’s skill set is not coach-dependent. And we can’t say that because Player X performed better under Coach S than he did Coach F, that is all attributable to the new coach’s systems.

Hedo Turkoglu, was already a good player when he was with the Kings.He’s not doing anything now that he didn’t already do before. Further, his play as a younger player got him minutes. He just couldn’t crack the starting line up because there better players ahead of him.

Also, Coach Adeleman’s is known to be offense-oriented, while Coach Van Gundy is defense-oriented(at least to a much greater extent than Adeleman). I’m not so sure that it is a switch to a more defense-oriented coach that, so much so as going to a team where the talent level allowed him to become a starter.

As far as Diaw, well, I can’t buy that because they soured on him in Phoenix even before the coaching change. The knocks on him here remain with him to this day. He is a talented enigma, was with the Hawks, and I’m betting he will be under Coach Brown as well after the novelty has worn off the trade(and also if the rumored trade with the Knicks goes down as well).

I agree with you about great players doing well no matter what. I would just extend it further to very good players and many good players too. Bibby is not a great player, but he was very good and is good still at the very least. Yet his level of play has remained relatively stable across 3 coaches and across the the early, mid, and late stages of his career.

I could be wrong, but wasn’t Kevin Johnson shoved aside for a young Bibbby? Why isn’t Acie forcing the Hawks to complete the circle?

It’s on the player to force playing time. When you have to start saying “this guy would be great if this, and if that..” then it is an open question as to whether you want that guy starting on your team, much less running it.

I haven’t given up on Acie. My expectations of him weren’t the same as the majority here. I have always seen him as a back up PG primarily, and a serviceable starter under the best of circumstances.But if we’re now going to say that Acie is a “system point guard”, ok with me, just stop placing all the blame on Coach Woodson.

By Ken Strickland

December 20, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Smoove lost all of his conditioning while he was out, and could do little to maintain it due to the nature of his injury. Upon his return, Woodson immediately inserted him into the starting lineup, without concern for the impact it could have on the chemistry of the starting team. Forcing Josh to play extended mins under these circumstances was unfair to him as well.

Physically, Smoove has obviously failed to regain the timing he had before his injury, which affects his rebounding and shot blocking. Psychologically, he’s compensating and trying to protect that ankle. That’s why he’s not going after blocks and rebounds like he normally does. It also shows when he drive to basket. He usually ends up with a weak finish at the rim, instead of a strong finish above the rim.

He should have been required to play himself back into shape off the bench, and earn his way back as a starter. Playing no more than 5 mis intervals, in each qtr, off the bench, would have worked for him and the team, especially team chemistry.

Why hasn’t someone introduce Smoove to that square directly above the rim? His OFF is confined to either directly under the basket or the 3pt line. He has nothing to offer in between. Getting in the lane and banking shots off that square would make him a serious inside threat. That could force DEF’s to collapse and keep him out of the lane, which would open it up for our outside shooters.

Horford OFF should be based on who’s guarding him. With larger defenders, he should use his jumper and draw them out. When they come out to challenge, he should fake his jumper and drive past them. When being defended by smaller players, he should use his size and strength to go inside.

In an AJC interview, Woodson said his OFF system was simple and easy to learn. THAT’S THE PROBLEM. IT’S TOO SIMPLE AND EASY, AND OTHER TEAMS SEEM TO HAVE LEARNED IT WITH EQUAL EASE.

By RLP

December 20, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

At the beginning of the season we had lost Chills but our other young players had another season under their belt. The maturation of those players plus having Bibby for the entire season were factored into my prediction. My preseason goal was for a five game improvement to 42 wins. I thought that was a fairly conservative prediction. But then we picked up Flip and Mo. I think they have more than compensated for the loss of Chills. I have no problem revising my goal for the team for the year. I think it is possible to see a fifty win season barring injuries. That is a goal and it is based partly on the teams play thus far. Based on the Iverson trade I think the Nets will be a bigger rival for fourth in the East than the Pistons. But injuries can kill things so we have to continue playing and hope nothing happens. A midyear trade could also result in a reassessment. I also think that Woody is using Flip and Mo rather than Acie and Solo because he is, rightly so, concerned with his own future survival.

By hawkfan

December 20, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

i know we’re done talking about the celts but this was a funny comment:

“It’s tough,’’ said point guard Rajon Rondo of the new atmosphere in Atlanta. “My first year, we went to Atlanta and there were 4,000 (fans) maybe in the crowd.

“Now, it’s a packed house. They’ve got a lot of celebrities there. They’re up for it. Guys are ready to play us. We’re the team to beat. I’m sure this will be like a playoff-type of game, very physical. It will probably go right down to the wire.’’

By kirkinga

December 20, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Manny T, interesting analogy with the trip.

But in your analogy the destination was known at the outset. What was unknown was how the trip would unfold.

Due to factors such as not having a winning season in awhile,but reaching the playoffs and doing well at home and horrible on the road the destination of the Hawks for this season was unknown.Our prediction was where the Hawks were going, not how they would necessarily get there. That is why I think the analogy isn’t quite on point.

Further, to take your rationale, the change of information, I believe this just underscores my caution. It is risky to change based on incomplete information. Yet after on 1/4 season that is what some are suggesting for the Hawks.

That is why I made a distinction between my hope which I’ve raised, and my expectation, which has remained the same.

The NBA season is a long road with conditions that change on a dime. The final destination for all teams are unknown at this point.

Finally, I care about you guy’s mental health. I see how your overly ambitious expectations of ASG(despite obvious flaws like such as a multiperson ownership setup) has now embittered you once they met reality.I’m just afraid some might jump completely off the track should the Hawks failed to meet overly ambitious expectations changed 1/4 through the season.

If there were key injuries and your predictions did not contain a health caveat, then I could see injuries forcing you to lower expectations. But raise them for a team that has yet shown it can have a winning season?

Same players, same coaches, same expectations.

Go Hawks!!

By doc

December 20, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

do i see a trend here that one is criticized for being negative when not negative then positive when being not negative but rational based on performance? umm, any problem with being flexible to the situation at hand that is neither in the past when predictions were made or to the future when there are expectations but merely the present moment based on where we are now?

since i brought up the subject of reassessment in the middle of the season so i am the cheater. since i wasnt singled out it could be denied by kirk or he could give the redundant yawn response. it is possible that if i questioned it was me that the reference was made there would be denial but i guess i did provoke thought which is all we are after here.

manny t watch out for being so embittered, i meant to tell you about it last night while we were at half time but forgot.

again i am not sure that i am the cheating one or being singled out and i clarified my concerns fairly well earlier but i guess i can clarify further in specifics. i feel sure i am one of many thinking that three teams were expected to stand above us only to now have fallen flat on the rears in the wizzards, the raptors and the sixers. they have falen so far coaching changes were made another team expected to be right there challenging for the title has made a trade that far left them at below .500 since it was made in the pistons. with that occurrence i only wonder why it was so difficult to challenge or were you so smart you saw just that happening or somehow know which teams will slide into the slots ahead of us? are you expecting a surge now by the fallen teams or maybe the heat, bulls and nets? frankly they could but i hope we have enough of a head start on them. if they do then we may have to rescale our hopes in the future which these young hawks had better grab as now.

i guess i am a cheater but i gave a range of 39 to 44 thinking 42 would be the number. now i can say it is possible to see 48 i.e. the ten percent or so given the range stated earlier. all i all it is fun to go to a game now just as it was last year but to see a better brand of game played by the home team. my thought swer e based on the fact that it is not the same coaches and players we are competing against an equally important part of the equation.

By bigdave

December 20, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this

Could someone explain the ASG litigation and what scenarios yield what possible results for the Hawks as far as free agent spending, trades and other matters. im familliar with the parties involved however unclear on their stances…

By bigdave

December 20, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

Correction: “familiar”

By MannyT

December 20, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

As I am blogging between other activities, I’ll take the player piece now and come back to the prediction thing later.

Boris Diaw stats

On Diaw—even though they soured on him in Phoenix, his productivity and minutes were far better there than here, even when he was soured on there. The easiest stat to show that is probably minutes per game. The chatter here is will AC get more. When Phoenix saw him as less favorable, he was still favorable enough to get minutes. An easy contrast—check Antione Walker’s minutes during his recently ended tenure in Memphis.

Phoenix also saw enough in Diaw to give him a nice contract. One that he would not have gotten if he had stayed here in this system.

I agree that a player’s skill set is not coach-dependent. However, the effectiveness of that player can very much be dependent on the system. Here, we wanted Diaw to play a perimeter role. In Phoneix he got to play more of a power forward role. He has shown more success with that role even at his size. It was the coaches system that determined the position and style he would play.

As for Hedo…Hedo Turkoglu stats Note he stared 44 of 80 games in San Antonio, then less in his 1st year in Orlando.

He showed the ability to grow under Adelman and moved on to teh Spurs. He did ok there for a season, but then moved to Orlando where Brian Hill was his coach. He did better under Hill, but made a significant jump when Van Gundy and Rashard Lewis arrived. These changes allowed him to log more time at the SF where he has flourished. (Orlando usually plays with a center and 2 SF—but Lewis usually guards the PF.)

Side note—The Mayor of Sactown was in Phoenix most of his career. He and Bibby never played for the same team. As a rookie, Bibby did not shove aside any PG of note in Vancouver.

It is fair to say that the very good will rise up as well (as long as they are not blocked by better—see Rip Hamilton in DC with Jordan.)

My concern with Woody and development is that he seems to have a difficult time finding minutes to develop players. Notice how many bench players Doc Rivers had in the game vs the Hawks in the 2nd quarter. Big baby and Leon Powe can barely carry KGs bags, but they have found a way for them to contribute and gain experience during key parts of regular season games. It helps them to develop. Note that Rodney Stuckey got meaningful minutes as a rookie when Chauncey Billups played for the Pistons. He’s promising, but not at the Billups level yet. Development matters…especially in a league where much of the draft selection is based on potential.

When the starting PG job here bounced between Claxton (for a healthy minute), Anthony Johnson, & Ty Lue—there should have been developmental minutes available for Law. Woody pretty much said so himself over the summer.

You earn the right to be on the court, but there is a major difference between being there with 2 minutes left in a close game and getting time in the 1st half while starters rest.

A few blog back someone posted similar logic from the Wizards coach, Ed Tapscott, about developing Nick Young. The young guys need some court time.

BWAF

By Sautee

December 20, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

doc

Who do you think you are adjusting your expectations like that?

Raising the expectation high now is a setup for failure on one hand, and a denial of achievement on the other.

See doc, you can’t win, no matter what. And you’ll be denying the team their achievement, you selfish excuse for a fan.

You act as if those expectations are yours!

At least it’s ok for you to “hope”, though I’m not sure if you must use the parenthetical hope or not. ;-)

By BO......

December 20, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

Hawks really need help on the boards, you have Zaza, Acie, and Solo. I like them all very much but looks like coach doesnt Until we get the bench going youll just see a 44-38 team. we need a trade to get deeper in the playoffs. coach has a strong 7. others cant seem to jell. need at least 1 more key man. like a Marion, or even Joe prysbella. Would love sac. center, or Camby.

By ray

December 20, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

Samuel,

I figured you would say that. In fact, I knew you’d say that. I see nothing wrong with drafting another pg. Better be a good one. But again, if Acie gets packaged in a trade, then who backs up Bibby? By the way, I get your “age ain’t nothin’ but a number” concept, when comparing him with Nash and Kidd. But uh….

Nash= 2-time NBA MVP, multiple-time all-star, and still one of the greatest pgs in the league.

Kidd= multiple all-star and still one of the greates pgs in the league.

Bibby= good pg, but none of the above.

But yeah, other than that….age ain’t nothin’ but a numba….

I MUS,

Bland was the word I used, not something I was accusing you of using. But you have to admit you seem pretty luke-warm on Horford in your description of him. But here’s the thing: it was okay to let Marvin develop over the course of 3-4 years, and now he looks like a very solid player. Why not afford Horford the same luxury? As for Phoenix offering Stoudamire for both draft picks, I don’t remember that being anything more than a rumor debunked by Sekou. But….those were high draft picks. Both of them lottery. And who’s to say that Phoenix doesn’t parlay one or both into something else? And who says they would’ve drafted Horford or Acie with those picks?

The only reason I said your argument seemed contradictory is because you seem so luke-warm on Horford. Like you said, stat-wise he’s no comparison to Stoudamire in anything but defense. Unless these guys are completely sold on getting rid of him, why would they trade for less production? That was my point. As for the trade suggestion, I believe you said Horford and Acie for Stoudamire and a pick. You could very well be right about all of this. Here are the reasons I still don’t see it working: 1) Stoudamire makes a pile of money. Are we willing to take that on…and sign him to a lucrative extension when the time comes, assuming he performs to expectations? 2) If he doesn’t play well in Terry Porter’s half-court offense, what makes you think he’ll do well in Woody’s half-court offense? If you ask me, what’s sauce for the gander in one place is sauce for the same in another…

But hey, I wouldn’t throw him off the court, either. Just don’t know that something like that would work. On the subject of Acie, I see what you see: a guy who could be like Chauncey Billups.

By ray

December 20, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

Acie doesn’t force Woody to play him more minutes because Woodson isn’t in a force situation at pg. As long as Bibby is healthy, he will get the lion share of the minutes. As long as Flip is healthy, he will get a good share off the bench.

Al Horford’s situation is much, much different than Acie’s. Prior to Horford, Zaza has been the best big man we’ve had in years. That didn’t exactly make it difficult for Horford to grab the top spot. He’s a better player hands down. Not so for Acie, especially under a coach who prefers veteran pgs, and I don’t care how you slice it, we all know that to be the case.

But if you want to sum up the answer in one sentence, I submit to you a partial quote from Coach Woodson in one of Sekou’s articles: “We have the luxury of bringing Acie along slowly.” Can’t remember the title of the article the quote came from, but that sums it up pretty easily. That quote alone indicates intent. This is a choice, and Woody is the one making the choice. Acie performed quite well against Cleveland in our first meeting with them this season. I’d say 20 points, 6 boards, 7 assists in 23 minutes was pretty damn good. How many minutes did he play the next game? Acie produced 5 assists in 7 and a half minutes against the Warriors. Never saw the floor again for the rest of the night…a night in which Woody was quoted after the game as saying “I wanted to get the bench out some more, and I figured this was a good game to do it in.” So why did he only play 7 and a half minutes? Because Woody chose to do it that way.

Am I blaming Woodson for doing something wrong? No. I’m just stating what seems to be obvious: Woody feels he doesn’t have to play Acie very much, not when he has Bibby performing the way he has, and Flip waiting in the wings. So Acie can’t force anything, because he’s not needed as desperately at his position as Horford is at his position.

Just my 2 pence…

By ray

December 20, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

Sautee,

That is interesting. All I see is rules. Didn’t know there were so many rules.

1) Can’t have too high of an expectation of your team.

2) Can’t expect much from an ownership group of way too many members and not enough money. Although that’s very strange…I seem to remember somebody telling us how grateful and excited they were that the ASG was taking over, because they provided such STABILITY…and now that somebody tells us that they knew all along that these guys didn’t have it together…can’t remember WHO that was, though.

1. Can’t change your opinion. That’s cheating. *I wonder what else falls under that category. And I thought that’s why they call it an “opinion.”

2. Can’t say that a coach’s system is to blame when a player doesn’t play well under his system, but peforms just fine under another coach’s system.

3. No wait, yes you can. Maybe. Get back to you on that one…

4. You must make your prediction and analysis of offseason activity prior to the season, and then stick to it. No changing your mind, or you’re cheating and will be “disqualified.” You are not allowed to have another opinion, analyze, or otherwise state a different thought until after the season is over.

Damn, are we getting paid for this? Even the guys who get paid for this change their minds. I think that’s why NBA.com has its power rankings EVERY WEEK, NOT once a season. Maybe they’re not following the “rules” either.

Wow. So these are the rules for being a proper fan.

Will the real Ruling Rules please stand up?

By MannyT

December 20, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

As I blog with my asbestos blogging gear on, I have no fear about handling the heat based on my opinions ;-)

embittered, embattled, ensconced…I get by with a little help from my friends.

I’ll make the predictive part of this easy.

Toss out the trip analogy. The vast majority of decisions are made with incomplete information. A prediction, by definition will be based on incomplete information or it is not a prediction. Changing a prediction part of the way through allows you to use more information which narrows the range of options, but there are still options. In October, every number from 0 to 82 wins was possible even though the extremes were very unlikely. Now the range is limited to 16 to 72 wins with the extremes still unlikely. In April—the extremes of the record are more likley due to the small number of games that will remain.

When key players get hurt, that impacts expectations. I doubt Sund expects the Hawks to beat the Cavs with regularity…however, if LeBron James were injured or unavailable the expectations for our success versus them would rightfully change. If Dwayne Wade is out, the expectations may not change as much because many folks would have seen us ahead of the Heat even with Wade. We were close to Philly as a measuring stick team late last season. When they got Brand, expectations were that they would be significantly better as their talent level increased. Now that he his hurt, expectations are different about playing them for us…probably no so much for the Celtics who would be a favorite to beat them in either case.

I am going out on a small limb here, but I think this issue has more to do with the expectation game of is Woody doing a good job or not. It is easy for me to say, I’m not a fan of his coaching, but he is much more successful so far this season than ever before. Good for him. Good for us Hawks fans. I don’t want him to stumble, but I would not be surprised if an injury or two penalizes us more harshly due to the lack of bench development.

The expectation thing cuts both ways. Naysayers may put unrealistic goals out there, but fans (like Samuel may also feed that fire…check his link..you will recognize his 1/4 season coach of the year.) At the end of the day, I won’t be responsible for evaluating Woody’s performance in any official, impactful way. That’s why your boy Rick gets a paycheck.

Aside from that I’ll let those of you who like to fight that How good is Woody fight have fun with it. I’ll take a back seat for a bit and let other opinions take over on this.

It is the holiday season. Having not seen Ariose around for a bit, I’ll toss a MannyT link out there as a twist on the little drummer boy.

Happy Holidays to all.

BWAF

By rms

December 20, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

Come on man, it doesnt matter how well you play, you are still going to get benched. Come Sunday, AC and Solo will get benched despite their good efforts in limited play. Why not define roles for them and play within that. I know they arent going to go off and tear the score sheet up, but they will save wear and tear on your starters. Some nights they might just suck, well guess what some nights our starters suck, they aint going to get benched. Thats just how it is, if they suck one night, the thing to do is go right back to them the next game to keep their confidence high as you would do with a Wide Reciever that drops a pass in the game or a running back fumble the ball. The next play they go right back to him, not bench him for the forseeable future. That not the way to build player confidence and develop young players. And finally as much as I love the Hawks, chill out with all this silly talk about Mike Woodsons system. HE HAS NO SYSTEM!! At the rate we are going by the time we reach 60 wins, our roster will be reaching retirement age! Stop settling for mediocrity. As a paying customer, there comes a point of time when I demand a better product, especially after 10years!!!

By Ken Strickland

December 20, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

There are HC’s that love being HC’s, but don’t necessarily embrace certain responsibilities that go with the job. Some don’t like developing, guiding and utilizing young players, managing players mins or adjusting to the players, when needed. Some are married to a system, and believe in forcing players into that system, and blames the player or players if that system doesn’t work effectively, rather than building a system around the skills and talents of his players. Some limit their coaching because of the limits of their coaching abilities. DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?

By MannyT

December 20, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this

Delayed kudos to the Hawks.

Last night against us, Jamal Crawford scores 6 points. Tonight he drops a Hawaii 5-0 on the Bobcats!

By doc

December 21, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this

so the falcons now control their own destiny? just win baby.

By kirkinga

December 21, 2008 5:52 AM | Link to this

Manny T, well once again I’ve questioned a point made by approved sources and it has lead to a discussion that has gone in a direction than wasn’t originally intended. Hijacked by Dark forces who have now decided a proper discussion isn’t going to happen, soo.

There shouldn’t be a need for asbestos, I’m still trying to figure that out…lol?I always respect your take even when I disagree with it.

So, ok, Acie Law is a “system point guard” he needs the right system,the right scheme, the right team, the right number of minutes, and the right coach..and then, he’ll show a better performance. I got it now.

(If I had only said I believed that Larry Drew, a man with 0 wins as a NBA Head Coach, would make the Hawks a better team,was the solution, perhaps the discussion could’ve continued constructively.)

I will offer one more point that might go to heart of our different perspectives Manny T. I believe NBA head coaches have a different pressure upon them than college coaches. Generally, they’re given less time to win. Consequently, they can’t devote as much time to player development.

In, the NBA, that task generally falls to the assistant coaches. Like position coaches in the NFL, and MLB coaches,assistants have a bigger hand in developing player than do the head coaches and managers.

I find it strange that all blame seems to fall on Woodson and nary a mention of any of the assistants.

I invite you to catch the Calvin Murphy Show online or podcast. He frequently talks about and distinguishes coaching-problems, from player-problems. You’ll likely disagree with him too, but you might appreciate a HOF take on the matter.

Time will tell with Acie as it will with those who have now decided to raise expectation. I believe it’s just another attempt to setup Woodson for blame.So if the team wins, say 47 games and finishes with the 6th seed instead of 3rd or 4th, people will then ignore the 10-game improvement, the consecutive playoff appearance and their original predictions.

I invite anyone who wants to vastly raise expectations(instead of hope) now to have at it. I have yet to read a persuasive reason for doing so.Are y’all saying you were wrong at the start of the season? What about after the Hawks lost 4 in a row, where were the expectations of home court then? Mysteries abound.

And naming Coach Woodson as “Coach of The Year” with 1/4 season gone is as dumb an idea as firing him when the team is having it’s first winning season after nine losing seasons.

Go Hawks!!

By doc

December 21, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

kirk again you play the evasive and tangential game and blanketing a whole or partial whole with your words. that is of course ok and your privilege; it is also transparent. whether i am a “dark force” as you call it and have issue with is irrelevant. i think if you read my respectful responses you will find my take on a subject i suggested as answers to your questions. no mystery there, must be somewhere else. though you dont see it, the asbestos suit that manny t wore might not be a bad idea as your flame thrower has a broad sweep. maybe we better keep it in the closet at the liars’s table.

as far as your comments, woody was hired because he HAD to develop talent and that was why he was chosen as a head coach who could. as far as it falling to his assistants, yes, only he hires them. so is it directly his responsibility to see it is done or hire others?

as far as young teams and head coaches that might disagree with your take, look only to how the blazers are doing it in a much more competitive division. nate mcmillan is directly responsible for the development of his players. he states up front who he is responsible for and holds himself accountable for their development ONE ON ONE. the three he has are the three potential stars roy, oden and aldredge. he states it behooves him to take them on as in the end they determine his future and vice versa. interesting take. it is also important as well to compliment their organization for their handling of outlaw, a teen draftee with an unusual disability. so, i guess some head coaches do it themselves though certainly not all and nate might be the exception. ultimately as their title suggests they are responsible and should and will take some blame.

as far as woody he has certainly become more animated this year on the sideline. i also think he has to get some props for the position this team is in as we head out of the quarter mark. yes there are a lot of questions to be answered and many trials to go through. that is what makes it fun. it is also fun to talk about it. so i say it was more in the interest of discussing where things are rather than a ploy to hang woody with blame.

the way things play out if woody gets 48 wins and finishes sixth i think we will be pleased. i imagine a lot of those wins will be against teams in disarray that were found to be pretenders rather than contenders and got their coaches a very surprising exit. if the hawks dont heads will be scratched by fans and gm’s alike. i guess those coaches were ultimately found to blame and held accountable.

fortunately the home team has been very entertaining this year and we still have our coach. woody has to be given some cred, maybe not the COY as there are many out there who have done wonders including karl bringing his reconstructed team on the fly denver squad in tuesday.

as far as the team being appreciated i know they are. when sund was addressing the fans at the town hall meeting there was a spontaneous applause when he stated we should be proud of the men we have representing us as hawks. we know that and are pretty cool with it. we want them to achieve and it was good to see that response so freely by the fans.

as far as acie i said vanilla and a safe pick when it was made as i would have preferred stuckey. i even would have preferred crit as a development project as it seems acie is one as well getting limited play time. i say my preferences only to confirm i have no ultimate agenda. acie was supposed to be compete immediately much as shels was when he came in. so, either he got coached down, was a poor selection by the former gm, didnt live up to expectations or the expectations were false from the get go. fans didnt make the expectations, woody and bk did by setting them when the pick was made. yup, it is probably somewhere in between or as you suggest he is a system guard who hasnt found a home or like a brother here says a billips who hasnt been given rein to do his thing. funny he looks more like flip in that he has the ability to penetrate in a very stagnant offense at times relying on perimeter shots. the offense may not warrant a penetrating guard as there are players lined up at the three point ringexpecting passes out there rather than crashing down low to receive passes from the penetrator. ultimately if acie is that bad i am glad bk got us bibby for the long haul.

i guess as far as fan expectations. pardon us all. yes, we get carried away wanting and expecting to win all games going away when dealing with opponents of inferior talent. it is absurd though and i recognize it as such. there is a sense of winning all the close games against the best if only this or that had been tweaked so let’s discuss it at the liar’s table as we discuss what we saw, a diversion. we kind of like each other here or had you noticed, so it is fun to share those notions. as you may agree and point out how foolish we are that it just doesnt work out that way even for the best. the celtics last year had one of the best averages for winning by points differential last year in the history of the game at somewhere around ten points. shame on us for wanting our hawks to be among the best.

so kirk in the end i guess we are more in agreement than not, though you may not agree the the whys and wherefores. i see your point and chuckle at it sometimes myself, fan expectations are inflated at times, reactionary at others. yeah, acie is not the real deal and probably needs to get used to being a back up in the mode of who he most resembles on this team flip. you are absolutely correct woody though he hasnt quite won the COY award maybe for even the first quarter of a season should be given some cred for where the team is at only ready to take some of the accountability for any downturns. i guess i wouldnt call samuel dumb for suggesting it as samuel does say some pretty intelligent things here in spite of his tete a tete with andro. i guess we differ in the idea he shouldnt be held accountable for development of players directly as all coaches can be player killers just as some players can be coach killers. in the end if the team falls out of the playoff hunt after this start you might even come to the point of wanting his head and buying a t shirt to state it. no, i guess you wouldnt.

ehh and kirk, my friend, so, fondly i say …. may “the dark force” be with you …. where ever you see it. kirk, though you dont see it, the asbestos suit that manny t wore might not be a bad idea as your flame thrower has a broad sweep. maybe we better keep it in the closet at the liars’s table.

well, heading down to the phillips today as i continue my efforts to make my two daughters into hawks fans. call it my father’s day of many.

peace

go hawks!

By doc

December 21, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

in honor of richie i posted this earlier about his spiders and making his mark this weekend with makers mark. enjoy rich and hope you come out of it able to see and didnt find some shine along the way;

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-fcschampionship&prov=ap&type=lgns

there were two other articles that described it more from a fan perspective but gone now. maybe you already saw them, something about a sixty year old with running paint at the end of the game that had been smeared on his face hours earlier.

By Ken Strickland

December 21, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

KIRKINGA-I have to agree with DOC on this one. First, you stated, “IF I HAD ONLY SAID I BELIEVED THAT LARRY DREW, A MAN WITH 0 WINS AS A NBA HEAD COACH”. How many wins do you think Woodson had as an NBA HC before the Hawks hired him?

When BK interview Woodson, do you really think expectations, direction and the style of play BK wanted weren’t discussed? Woodson obviously deceived BK about his willingness to accept, develop and manage young inexperienced players, as well as his willingness to run an uptempo style of OFF.

After 2yrs, Woodson began to change things and take control and began complaining about the need for more veterans. That’s when the rift between the 2 began. BK realized he had been snowed by a man that turned out to be the complete opposite of the image he presented during interviews. That’s when BK tried to fire him.

There is no way Woodson can be given credit for the improvement of this yrs team. Bibby’s midseason acquisition elevated our play enough to get us into last yrs playoffs. That improvement had nothing to do with Woodson. Don’t you think having a Bibby healthy, go through an entire training camp, while learning the system, as it is, and the players, would be an even bigger improvement? Again, that has nothing to do with Woodson. What about the impact of returning the same starting lineup for the 1st time in a decade. Also, what about the additions of vets Murray, Evans and the improved play of Marvin, Acie, Zaza and Solo. What impact has Woodson had on any of these factors? I think these factors alone can account for at least 10-12 additional wins this yr.

LDrew would make a better Hawks HC than Woodson, because he has a better knowledge and rapport with the players. As a NBA PG, he had to rely on speed quickness and athleticism, which made him an uptempo type of player, like Acie. Woodson relied on size, strength and decipline, alone with a deadly jumpshot, to carve out his NBA career. As a player, that made Drew the complete opposite of Woodson, and the same would probably hold true as a HC. LDrew’s mindset, and the style of play that made him a successful NBA player, would make him a better fit as the Hawks HC, with their young, quick, fast, athletic uptempo type of talent.

After saying all of this, I realize there’s a difference between MWoodson the HC and MWoodson the man. I’m focusing of MWoodson the HC, because I don’t know MWoodson the man, who could very likely be a pleasant person.

By Sautee

December 21, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

kirknga

Your comment:

I find it strange that all blame seems to fall on Woodson and nary a mention of any of the assistants.

Maybe that would have something to do with Woodson’s own admission that he ignored his assistant’s pleas for expanding the benchlast year. He himself said he would have to “do better” at that this year.

But he has not, leading to more criticism about bench development. (didn’t Joe play over 41 minutes Friday against a 7 win team?)

Same coach, same players, same expectations.

Same criticism.

By jhan

December 21, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Isn’t every player ultimately a “system” player. There are certain “systems” that bring out the best of every player. The coaches job is to design a “system” that brings out the best in his team.

OR

The GM’s job is to fill out the roster with players that compliment the coaches “system”. It seems we are in the midst of this happening.

What bothers me about Woody is he doesn’t seem to adapt his “system” to utilize everybody on his roster. He finds 7 players that he can put up with and only plays them.

I’m not a coach but it seems logical to me to utilize all of your resources.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

just before half time in the boston game and gsw game, flip had the ball with time runnin’ down. with 4 seconds left, he breaks to the basket, both times and gets the ball snatched out of his hands…he doesn’t go to the dog house.

if acie had done this same thing he would have bypassed the dog house and would have been drowned like one of mike vick’s dogs.

i think that acie should be gettin’ more of flip’s minutes

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

56 games left in the season and we are 16-10. if we finish .500 we are 44-38, which i think we will do better than that.

we are solid 4th in the east right now, we can’t slip past 5th seed, if we expect to get out of the 1st round this yr. finishin’ 6th, 7th or 8th will have us goin’ against orlando, clev., and boston in the 1st round.

keep playin’ tuff hawks!!

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

i wonder where we would be had jsmoove had not misse 10 games…i think that we would be up there with clev, bstn and lkrs with 20+ wins and we would really be the talk of the league.

of our 10 losses, i know that had we had smoove we would have atleast won 50 of those games.

i think that we keep bibby thru the season and i think that he will resign with us for 8mil next yr. what do you think the chances of us offerin’ jj an extension, seein how lebron said that he would consider signin’ one with clev.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

what do you all think about waivin’ hunter or west and resign jchills to make a playoff run? what is the latest that we can bring him in? woody trusts jchill more than he does acie.

By ES

December 21, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

After watching the Hawks-Celtics game Wednesday, I came away very impressed by Rajon Rondo and it got some of my readers thinking. Why didn’t the Hawks take Rondo in the 2006 draft when they needed a PG? The Hawks picked fifth in that draft and took Shelden Williams, who they flipped for Bibby (along with other parts). But lost in the shuffle is Knight’s decision not to take Rondo. Rondo went 21st to the Suns, who traded him to the Celts. Granted, 5 would have been too high for Rondo, but 5 was too high for Shelden anyways. Shouldn’t Knight get criticized for this the SAME way everyone has criticized him for Williams over Paul/D. Williams? I think there’s a case to be made. And if Wednesday’s game proved anything, it’s that Rondo is ready for prime time and is arguably one of the best up and coming PG’s in the league.

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

WORK JOSH!!!

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

after getting to the basket at ease early in the season against poor defenders such as J J R. of Orl. ive seen Flip get ripped on his attempts to drive as of late. i think this is yet another game taylor made for Acie… there isnt one piston on the court that can stick with him today…

By cp

December 21, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

And once again Flip has his pocket picked smh

By cp

December 21, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

Well what do you know Flip just got his pockets picked once more smdh. wow

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 21, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

If the Atlanta Spirit Group had a dollar for every time Dominique Wilkins said “heat check”, all their financial problems would be over and they would be able to sign LeBron in 2010.

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Najeh.. And Bosh…

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

After Bibby has a good shooting night, he always tells Big Country, ” just came in and got some extra shots up last night…”..

By ray

December 21, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Sautee,

I was about to post that myself. Well done. Good to have someone else around that doesn’t have a selective memory.

Jhan,

That was an excellent and fresh perspective.

Ken,

That was also a good point about head coaches. Each guy starts the job, having never won a single game as head coach. At the same time, I wouldn’t say that the assistants are truly free of all blame. And yet, is this not unlike the corporate world, wherein management is held responsible for production? Of course, you can probably expect your well thought out points to be ignored…much as mine were when talking about Larry Drew. I said that he has been here and knows the system (and the players), which would give him an advantage on the inside. The rest of it is more about managing: managing the game, managing your assistants and the way they help manage various coaching responsibilities. I rather doubt that Drew would do a worse job than the one being done now. And yet, there is still no justifiable reason to let Woodson go right now.

Doc,

It’s rare that you have someone so engrossed in themselves that they feel a need to tell people how perfectly balanced and neutral their viewpoint is, while none-too-subtly condemning that of everyone else around them. Sooner or later you realize that this is not about agreement (regardless of it existence as you stated), but assimilation. Sound silly? No moreso than “dark forces” and “ruling rules.” And yet, your repeated offerings of the olive branch are beyond admirable. The capacity to seek to get along with others and enjoy diversity of opinion is lacking in some. Of course, the characteristic itself does no good when the intention is opposite anyway…

By ray

December 21, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Najeh, that’s a good one!

Guys,

I think we need to make some name changes. Let’s stop calling Murray “Flip”. Marvin gets that name now, and I’ll tell you why: dude must have some kind of switch he’s able to “flip.” One summer goes by and “flip,” dude is suddenly a 3-point threat. A couple of games ago, two things made me cringe: Josh bending his knees and looking ready to launch anywhere outside of 12 feet, and Marvin going to the basket in traffic.

Now, all of the sudden (and we saw in it against Golden State), Marvin finishes in traffic, and with authority, taking all sorts of bumps and bangs on the way. He’s even taking much better angles to the basket. I’m tell you, dude is flipping a switch somewhere. And I like it.

Bibby was on fire in the first half. I have no complaints about Acie not coming into the game to spell him, because he looked fresh and sharp.

And now let’s get to Muray, who is more “flop” than “flip” lately. As in, turnover prone. What is his problem? Now I’d put Acie in over him when he’s playing like this. At least you know Acie wouldn’t try and force anything crazy, only to lose the ball or make a bad pass. Get it together Flip, you’re one of the vets, man.

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Acie Law maybe to speed the tempo up…?

By ray

December 21, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Man, is it good to see Joe taking it to the basket. We’re playing some pretty good ball out there today. Detroit is clearly not the same without Billups. Even with a guy like Iverson out there, and the rising Stuckey, this team is no longer one that I’d consider to be in the top 3-4 of the Eastern conference right now. Of course, being only a quarter of the way through the season is no true judge. Things could be different closer to or after the all-star break. And there’s nothing to say that Dumars is done dealing…

By O'brien

December 21, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

What happened to the Mo Evans from last year who was a good shooter?

By ray

December 21, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Interesting scene after Flip fouls Iverson on the break:

Flip arguing with the offical, Josh Smith trying to get him to stop. The view was close enough to just about making reading lips very easy. Flip was trying to say he had all ball, and Josh was trying to tell him that he simply got beat, stop arguing with the ref, and let’s go to the huddle. Who’s the vet here again?

Speaking of Josh, he needs to get into the gym with Mark Price for some free throw practice. Good job going to the hole, though.

Other guys need to move better without the ball. Joe is dribbling too many seconds off of the clock with these double teams, so we have to give him a target to pass to out of the double. Josh has been setting some nice screens and trying to set up plays from the top of the key. Ball movement and body movement go together.

By ES

December 21, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Najeh: I’m dying laughing at your Nique comment; his announcing skills are horrendous. But don’t his bosses tell him enough’s enough with the “heat check” commentary.

Also, does Josh Smith ever NOT argue an offensive foul, defensive foul or travel. The dude argues every call. I would think that limits his clout with refs when he’s actually right about something.

By bigdave

December 21, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

This is a shame.. This game shouldn’t have even been close…

By Melvin

December 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Good win by the Hawks. They finally beat a team that has own them in the past….

By ray

December 21, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Strange series of events here at the end.

Iverson is kept out of the game in the 4th quarter of a fairly close game…until Rip Hamilton is tossed.

Rip takes an errant Bibby forearm to the top of his head, and goes to the floor…and stays there. Then, when he comes up and goes for the bench, he’s assessed a flagrant technical and tossed. First, I don’t see the hit by Bibby being all that hard. I think Rip tried to act along with it and got no attention at all from it, which means his feelings smarted worse than the physical contact. Maybe it had something to do with that mask of his, but replays didn’t reveal much from any angle. Rip, however, did not hurt so badly that he wasn’t able to send his verbal disdain for the refs before being made to leave the game.

Speaking of which, he was tossed on one technical. That’s weird. Weirder than that was the fact that it took so damn long for him to leave. Curry is not very well in control of things just yet, I think that much is clear. And that’s gonna be a problem with Iverson before long. I wonder if he stays in a Pistons uni past the trade deadline?

Lastly, I just watched Marvin Williams battle three Pistons for an offensive rebound, during which the officials mistakenly called a 24-second violation. And Williams won the battle. Okay, that’s not strange. That was a thing of beauty…

By HB Ando

December 21, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

OK, I may be wrong that the ASG will trade Bibby before the deadline (though I still think they will). But, after watching the end of this game, on TV, I don’t think there’s a doubt in the world that the Pistons will be moving Iverson by then. He is clearly not happy with Curry or his role. When the trade occurred, I thought it was kind of a free roll. If it worked, then they competed for the East, and had the flexibility of re-signing Iverson (which was always very unlikely), or clearing his cap-space, while developing Stuckey.

Well the experiment isn’t working. For team or player. And Stuckey is ready. So look for an Iverson trade that might provide them some extra size on the front line, without locking them into any major contract liability beyond the end of the season.

Wonder who the next team will be to rent-a-Iverson?

By ILL-logical

December 21, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Todays game was a prime example of subtraction by addition:

The Hawks play was below AAU; it was grade school.(and it is clear that Josh still has ankle problems-the explosion is gone)

Even Dominique, the ultimate homer had to talk about how down the stretch the ball never left JJ’s hands and he became the human turnover factory. And the current incumbant HC’s response? This guy is horrible, no sets; no sharing the ball even when Mike Bibby was clearly keeping the team in the game.

No one crashes the boards when the 3 party starts so we die by the 3 when they are not faling.

My frustration is that no matter how good the current record is, I KNOW it would be better if we had a good HC.

By ILL-logical

December 21, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Todays game was a prime example of subtraction by addition:

The Hawks play was below AAU; it was grade school.(and it is clear that Josh still has ankle problems-the explosion is gone)

Even Dominique, the ultimate homer had to talk about how down the stretch the ball never left JJ’s hands and he became the human turnover factory. And the current incumbant HC’s response? This guy is horrible, no sets; no sharing the ball even when Mike Bibby was clearly keeping the team in the game.

No one crashes the boards when the 3 party starts so we die by the 3 when they are not faling.

My frustration is that no matter how good the current record is, I KNOW it would be better if we had a good HC.

By Hms

December 21, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

There has been some talk of how Stuckey would have been a better draft choice than Acie, but would he be able to force Woodson to play him any more successfully? If not, then his skills go to waste. I do not think that Josh Smith argues calls any more than does Kevin Garnett. As long as he is not getting technicals like Rasheed Wallace and getting himself thrown out of games then let him argue.

By ray

December 21, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

Very heavy minutes from the starters again, with an anemic contribution from the bench (when they played, that is). I guess Woody is sticking to his adage “win at all costs.” I guess he determines what costs are worth it. Heh.

Time to watch the Falcons…

Good win Hawks.

By kwooden1

December 21, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Another great win! GO HAWKS!!

They definitely could have won the game by more, the HAWKS haven’t shown any great offensive production to run up a score on someone. So I’m not surprised the 18 point lead disappeared. They’re going to grind out most of their games this season, especially if more than one person isn’t hitting 3’s. Bibby going 6 for 6 from 3’s is outstanding!! Joe struggled but hit great shots and did a good job distributing the ball. The HAWKS defintily need to get more shots for Marvin, but I really don’t care if they keep winning. Hate to see Acie and Solo get no time, but I’m not surprised. (still disagree though) It appeared that Zaza played well when he was in, he probably could have got more run also.

I wanted to blog before about the Golden State game, Flip made 3 straight turnovers in the first half and then ended up with the great 4th. That event reinforced to Woody, that his vet first system works. Acie had 5 assists in 7 minutes and that is probably has much time as he’s going to get in any game without injuries. Woody believes in the 7-8 man rotation, and he’s not changing. He has no reason to change if they keep winning.

I can nit pick about the game and the areas the HAWKS can improve, but I’m going to just in enjoy the run. 4-1 in the last 5, with the only loss to the Celtics by 3. (While beating Cleveland and Detroit in the same stretch!!) You can’t ask for better.

Keep getting better guys!

GO HAWKS!!!

By HB Ando

December 21, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

From the simple math department: Mark Stein submits his first trimester awards at the same time Sam posts his quarter-season awards. Hawks are 17-10. 27 X 3 is 81. Season is 82 games. Proponents of qualified public school education continue to disassociate with Sam, while Sam still scoffs at errors of basic math and elementary school-level spelling.

By cp

December 21, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

Evans is struggling. His shot is not falling and his defense is sub par at best. Its time to give someone else an opportunity to see what they can do.

By O'brien

December 21, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

I am very happy for the win, but we have so much room for improvement still. Dominique and Bob talked about the 2 Joshes. Josh #1 who operates inside the paint, where good things happen, and Josh #2, who shoots jump shots (an air ball?). Can’t Woody get into Josh’s head and convince him to cut back on those jump shots? And when Flip was turning the ball over, shouldn’t Woody have given Acie some PT?

By ILL-logical

December 21, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

This game was another example of why I am so frustrated with the team: The lack of sharing the ball, the bone headed play ;the lack of a coherent offensive scheme just portends doom in the futuer ,in spite of the talent.

Yes, a win is a win ,however how the team won is disturbing both for what it says about the talent that can win playing BAd ball but it also says that unless the team gets better then the playoffs,if atained, could be short lived.

By Tiger Woo

December 21, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

Excellent win for the Hawks - beating a Detroit team that beat them 4 times last year. They are really learning how to win right before our eyes!

How can anybody be frustrated with the team this year? They are 17-10 and could easily be 19-10 with home games vs. OK and Chicago coming up.

Can they improve? Sure they can - but I am very impressed with the results so far.

By HB Ando

December 21, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

ES, the Rondo pick was long gone, one of the two-first rounders that Billy packaged with Boris Diaw, when trading for JJ, whom they had signed to an offer sheet, as a restricted free agent. I don’t want to rehash what has been a thoroughly exhausted subject, but suffice to say that the fact that Rondo was taken with what was formerly a Hawks’ first round pick has never been lost on most folks here. You are correct that he is another is a fairly long list of young PG’s that got by the franchise, while its performance at that position was an ongoing source of ignominy.

Out of sheer boredom, here are point guards that Billy passed on (before he publicly belittled his critics, saying he didn’t agree that we needed a PG, and that he knew more about basketball than anyone else; and that’s from an AJC interview-and not too long before he signed not-so-Speedy to an ill-fated free agent contract):

2004-took Royal Ivey the pick before the Bulls took Chris Duhon 2005-famously passed on Chris Paul and Deron Williams (not to mention Ray Felton), for Marvin Williams-but more curiously (if you followed draft predictions), took Salim instead of Monta Ellis and local star Louis Williams 2006-took Shelden instead of Brandon Roy and Randy Foye-Additionally, the Suns used the first of two first-rounders, from the JJ trade, to draft Rondo, who was subsequently traded to the Celtics 2007-Despite serious workout buzz, reported at DraftExpress repeatedly, in the weeks leading up to the draft, took Acie Law instead of Stuckey.

In fairness to Law, as has been discussed endlessly here, he really hasn’t gotten a chance, with the play of Bibby, to define his NBA future, so far.

Curiously, if you take the collective value, of all the rookie contracts, of the PG’s Billy missed, they would probably equal what the Hawks are paying Bibby this year, and surely be less than what they are paying both Bibby and Speedy, combined……

By MannyT

December 21, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

To avoid some of the semantics, how about Woody as Employee of the Month for November. That way we don’t have to worry about the number of games or any other quantitative stuff around the record. It was interesting to see the comments on his posting included praise for Sloan and McMillan for coaching recognition. I know several of us have expressed positive thoughts about Nate McMillan in Portland.

While I am still not a Woody fan, I do recognize that he is doing better than ever before. That would be true even if there is some slippage in the remaining 55 games. He gets a 500 record by finishing 24 - 31. If that evens out and he finishes 27 - 28, that would be a 44 - 38 record…just like some PEST predicted. Both Ando and my boy Rick should get a kick out of that link-focus on the bottom where the prediction is laid out.

As for the game…kudos to Bibby for playing to his strengths…scoring the ball. Interesting to see that the 2 starters that played LESS than 40 minutes had the best +/- scores (Bibby & Williams). THe other 3 starters had negative scores. There is a message in there somewhere, but I don’t know if Woody will hear it as long as he gets wins.

I am enjoying Marvin more and more this season. He is getting his hands on loose balls and scrapping on defense. He is not fumbling the ball all over. He is definitely earning something for the summer contract season.

I don’t know what Rip said to the ref, but I’m guessing it was in the Flagrantly Understood Cajoled Kamikaze variety of technical foul section 5, subsection e

…and last but not least, I will check out the Calvin Murphy podcasts. kirknga if there is a particular one or two that you suggest as more useful, let me know. The list podcasts goes back to March.

BWAF

By ray

December 21, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

Manny,

I think you’re wrong about one thing: You definitely are the funniest guy here, LOL! That part about the technical had me laughing like hell. Sadly, the part about Woodson and minutes is true. “Win at all costs” appears to have carried from preseason to regular season.

Of course, we will now be castigated in effigy by the Holy One for griping about minutes when we are winning. Can’t remember exactly, but I’m sure it’s a violation of the Ruling Rules, article 9, title 26, chapter 13 of the book of Conventional Wisdom, as taken from the library of Dark Forces. Reader beware…..

By MannyT

December 21, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

Woo hoo.

I get a pass on that one. I bought a used copy and it was missing pages from chapter 13 ;-)

By kirkinga

December 21, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

KIRKINGA-I have to agree with DOC on this one. First, you stated, “IF I HAD ONLY SAID I BELIEVED THAT LARRY DREW, A MAN WITH 0 WINS AS A NBA HEAD COACH”. Ken Strickland

Ken, you’ve completely missed the reason for my raising that point at that particular time in that specific context.

Be that as it may, let me answer your question by saying that yes, a healthy Bibby will make a difference. I said it this summer and got laughed at, now it makes sense I guess. Shrugs

All these folks jumping on me for my disbelief in Larry Drew is not a substitute for laying out the case as to why he would be a better Head Coach. It also doesn’t make the case for any other potential replacement.

Again, complaining about Woodson and desiring his termination is one thing. But I care about this team and I want to know who is going to be his replacement and why. I want to see someone, anyone, invest the same effort as you do trying to get a rise out of me into making the case fort potential candidates.

Woodson ignored his assistant’s advice, so what, that doesn’t absolved them from their responsibility to develop players. If you believe that a head coach not following the advice of assistants is an aberration, then prove it. Don’t jibe me, make the case that this is gross mismanagement on the part of Woodson and base it on some historical analysis or something other than b.s.

OK, I may be wrong that the ASG will trade Bibby before the deadline (though I still think they will).

Yeeezz, walk it back, ain’t no shame. :)

Manny T, no, sorry, I guess I should’ve thought about actual dates, but if you check in every now and then it will come up because callers call in to blame this or that on the coaches and Murphy has some interesting takes on the point. There are other former players with shows as well that can be checked out, Murph is just but one.I find getting perspectives from those who actually have played/coached in the NBA helps inform and shape some of my thoughts(which I rarely waste here for obvious Dark reasons)

By kirkinga

December 21, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this

What a wonderful afternoon Atlanta sports fans!

The Falcons got it done on the road and are headed to the playoffs.

The Hawks won against the Pistons for the first time in two seasons! Wow, get that monkey outta here!

As I read the list of complaints about the game, I seem not to really care. Complaining today about anything sports related just seems a waste so I’m gonna leave it alone.

I’ll just point out that the coaching staff of the Atlanta Hawks, lead by Coach Woodson, for better or worse, system or no system,have gotten the team to 17-10 record. I’m appreciative.Get it while it’s hot!

Go Hawks!! (and Falcons too!)

By Astro Joe

December 21, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this

Congrats to the Falcons! 2 of my favorite 3 pro teams look playoff bound… Falcons and Hawks. Too bad the Braves appear to be fielding a AAA team next season.

By Ken Strickland

December 21, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

What we saw today from Bibby and JJ is a perfect example of their lack of confidence and/or respect in Woodson’s attempt at a structured OFF. We’ve seen this over and over again in close situations the last 2yrs, but not to this extent. And Woodson seems unable to do a thing about it. It’s very clear that Woodson employs a double standard when dealing with his players.

It’s inexcusable for JJ to play 43:29 mins, Smoove-43.19 mins, Horford-42:15 mins 42:15, Bibby-38:32 mins and Marvin-35:32 mins in a gm like this. Zaza was the only BIG off the bench and he played just over 5 mins. This clown doesn’t seem to know or care about the impact playing his starters so many mins can have on his players and team in the 4th qtr. I guess Woodson has to keeps it simple and limit his options, otherwise he’ll rapidly exceed the Peter Principle.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

ken very good pts. woody is not doin’ what is best for the team, developin’ acie, gettin’ solo some minutes with zaza. gettin’ randmo some burn…Woody is doin’ what is best for Woody. burnin’ up your starters will get you some wins and save your job. sam, eddie, and mo cheeks were doin’ what was best for their teams toronto, wizards, and philly respectfully, but they paid with their jobs. woody ain’t goin’ to lose his job without takin’ the team with him…

By Astro Joe

December 21, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

Season ticketholders, did Sund answer any questions during the meeting a few days ago (or was he stuck in the elevator all the time)? I’m wondering if anyone asked him about the development of Acie and other young guys? He seemed to discuss Acie’s maturation at length when he was first hired and I’m wondering if he addressed the eratic playing time Acie has received thus far.

By doc

December 21, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

fun game today at the phillips. yep closer than i would have liked and way too much iso jj for what we got out of him point wise. bibby was the man, had the ball very little but frigging won us a game, that is huge. stated earlier that we needed this game because the pistons had owned us. for as little as bibby had the ball on his hands as a point guard he did a lot of damage. others played their roles to a t. yes, smith took a few outside shots but what else can he do if he is stationed away from the basket and one second to shoot.

this next statement has nothing to do with woody as a head coach and maybe more of him an assissitant if you wish; more certainly as the man. there were four players that as they went to the first toss of the game at center court went to him and gave him a heartfelt hug. all four had played for him in some capacity; sheed, hamilton, prince then iverson from woody’s days with the sixers. some kind of respect there guys, must have left woody feeling all right.

speaking of iverson he seems very detached from this team. there was no attempt at interaction with his teammates at any point during the game. not sure if iverson will go but it doesnt seem to suggest there is much love there. maybe it will come with time, maybe a bad day.

how about stuckey as a second year guard? he about brought the team back. jj’s numbers may reflect more the defense of stuckey than jj just having an off day.

nice to see the team nearing what one of our fellow bloggers felt we could reach, a 20 and 10 record. i had my doubts because detroit has owned us. after this game it is not clear sailing but a major obstacle had been hurdled.

props to the falocns. guess i could find something negative about them too but as with the hawks i wont. lie the hawks they played big when it counted and got a win. what is vick supporter saying now? i think i will take a pass and stay here rather than check.

overall cool day, saw the hawks win, the falcons make a mark to win on the road to get into the playoffs after neither the cowboys or bucs couldnt, visited with manny t and sat with my girls who got into it and now wear jerseys. the younger one finally at halftime put on the bibby one she bought before the game when he single handedly buried the pistons in the first half with 20 of our 51 points. man he was on, 6 for 6 from three land. what a stud, thanks bk.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this

the last 3 games with the celts, gsw, and detroit, when time is runnin’ out on the quarter flip murray has turned the ball over and not even get a shot off. what’s up wit’ that?

had acie done this same thing for 3games straight, his azz would be in the dog house.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

truth be told, i am worried about that chicago game. d. rose is the truff!! they avg 100pts/game, shott 43% from the field, and 80% from free throw. 42+reb/game.

rose will get our guys in foul trouble early and often.

By rms

December 21, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

I was at the hawks vs pistons game today (upper level R317) and needless to say I cannot figure out why the hell Flip gets more minutes than AC. I would at least have him an AC in the game at the same time with AC at the 1 spot and Flip at 2 guard but not Flip running point. This really bothers me to see this. The Pistons lost this game because they stop going to Rasheed down low in the 4th quarter. Good win, but always room for improvement such as stop only using Evans and Murray as your only guys coming off the bench. Its so predictable now, they dont do anything spectacular to get any minutes. And it doesnt matter how well the other guys perform they are going to get benched regardless so dont tell me its the way they perform because we know that aint it.

By rms

December 21, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this

ES I promise you, had BK drafted Rondo instead of Sheldon, you have a fat chance in hell in convincing me he would be as good as he is now in a Hawks uniform. NO freakin way Rondo would be playing like he is now in a hawks uniform, he would chained up in the doghouse eating ALPO while we hear Woodson say “we are bringing him along slowly”. Just ask Acie….I wonder what is going on in his mind sitting on the bench getting no playing time while other players turn the ball over constantly and still get minutes.

By ant banks

December 21, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

rms doc rivers was not necessarily playin’ for his job last yr. he was on the choppin’ block, but he has 3 hall of famers on his team that would not let him fail, so the circumstances are different with rondo vs acie.

woody tryin’ to keep from losin’ his job so to hell wit’ acie. doc rivers was able to develop rondo because of the big 3

By MannyT

December 21, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this

doc I’m glad she got a Bibby jersey instead of an AC jersey. The latter would sit on a bench all the time ;-)

Astro there was no AC insight from Sund on Friday. You can summarize the talking points of the event as follows.

STH1-Question blah, blah, blah

Rathburn - That’s a good question for Rick when he gets here.

STH2-Question blah, blah, blah

Rathburn - That’s a good question for Rick when he gets here.

wash, rinse, repeat.

In fairness, the questions were more GM focused. How many folks ask about the TV broadcast. Could Rathburn really say I miss Smitty. He’s much better at color commentary than your all time favorite Hawk.

When Sund got there, he apologized for getting stuck in an elevator. He explained that he mostly listened for 2 weeks when he arrived and tried to mix some new with some of the old. He answered a question about using the money that Chills got to sign multiple players because you divvy the salary cap up in an uneven manner. That is on most teams 3 guys use about 1/2 of the cap space. He answered a question from a new journalist planted in the crowd about trading Bibby. He also answered another question or two that I cannot recall, because they were piping game announcement noise in over the loudspeakers.

Then we had to go because the game was about to start.

As for the info you really want to know—there were wings, nachos with chili, veggies, cookies, and soft drinks. Major kudos on the cookies from my perspective.

kirknga I’ll start with one of the older ones from March. It features Josh Smith. After that I’ll just bounce around a bit. Thanks for the recommendation.

Not that I post on the Falcons blog, but they have about doubled what I expected them to do this season. Major props to the new management team and the changes they made to create a process that has worked quite well.

In honor of Mike Smith I’ll roll out an acronym—process over dictatorship, yup

POD

By Sekou K. Smith

December 21, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

New blog up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By MannyT

December 21, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

Ant Coach Rivers WAS on the hot seat last year. It was almost a finals or bust year for him. Had he lost to the Hawks, I’m pretty sure he was gone. Maybe not for losing to the Lakers, but the Cavs would have been an iffy situation for him.

A look back at the start of the 2007-08 season

In spite of that he gave Rondo the ball a lot for a guy under pressure to succeed.

Just in case you forgot, check out the roster from that fine 24 win season prior to KG’s arrival Note that most of the guys that played were shipped out to get KG and Ray Allen.

BWAF

By lex luther

December 23, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

First of all, let me demand that Josh Smith be made to pay 5,000.00 for every 3 point attempt he makes. PERIOD. Now, the effort that the Hawks give a team like the Celtics or the other top tier teams that they face should be given every night. No way should they battle teams like Boston and beat teams like Cleveland then loose back to back games to NJ, or teams they suppose to beat. Woody, play Acie, Solo, hell even Mario, so that Joe, Mike, Josh, and Marvin can fully understand what it means to be hungry by those guys efforts. Yeah, they are going to make mistakes but damn at least they can earn those paychecks. The NBA is not a development league. Let the GUYS play…