Hawks

By Clyde

October 9, 2008 3:20 AM | Link to this

ROLL TIDE!!!!!

Solomon Jones needs to start! Sit Marvin on the bench.

ROLL TIDE!!!

By jdewayneatl

October 9, 2008 3:43 AM | Link to this

I know its oh so early but i was excited about this season and what could be since the end of “Game 7”. These first two preseason games have pushed that excitement even hight. Sure last preseason the Hawks were 7-1, so the preseason doesn’t always translate the exact same way during the regular season. But for some reason, this year seems to be a lot different.

The difference is the quality of play that the bench is bringing. The bench play has been off the charts. - Acie Law is playing with the confidence and moving towards the potential he showed at Texas A&M. Though not as spectacular agains Pheonix as he was against Orlando, he was solid and just what will be needed in a back up position behind Bibby.

-Mario West will be Mario. He will make the Hawks squad because he plays as hard as anyone. He didn’t get any burn against Orlando but came in to play 16 great minutes against Pheonix. He was ready.

-Pachulia seems to have regained the quality of play he had when he was starting for the Hawks. If he brings that night in and night out, the 5 spot will be ok Hawks fans (especially with Solo coming on this season).

-Speaking of Solo, there is one thing that game time will be needed for further improvement from him. He needs to stay out of foul trouble. He picked up three quick fouls against Pheonix. Staying out of foul trouble will ultimately dictate how much pt and improvement he gains throughout the year.

-And then there’s Evans and Murray. If anyone thinks that losing Chill’s could not be overcome by one player for the Hawks, check it out, we have two player that will definitely equal if not exceed what Chill’s meant to the team. After Evans went off for 17 against Orlando and only 2 versus Pheonix (having not played much of the second half), Murray came in to put up 13 after posting only 6 against Orlando.

This preseason is for the bench to build confidence and chemistry. We all know what the starting five will bring each night. But if the bench continues to produce as it is, the Hawks will definitely push Orlando for the top seed in the Southeast Division. That’s atleast a 4 spot in the Eastern Conference Playoff picture Hawks fans.

I know its early, but the future looks bright.

By doc

October 9, 2008 6:38 AM | Link to this

glad to see marvin cranking up the 3’s. though the concept was trashed by some it will be huge for him and the team if he can consistently add that type of support.

as a carryover from last blog:

it is DND vs HNE. we now have the different camps we can divide ourselves into from now on, to borrow from the manny t realm of communication. me, i’ll straddle the line and go into the HND group that manny t has found himself in. i dont know whether to call it schizophrenia or simply transitory nba manic depression. my diagnosis, right now is the blog is in the manic phase of preseason euphoria. wonder how the earth will feel as we crash into it with our expectations of the new season.

ray, still waiting for the virus decoder. i think the next time ando gets an operation ill suggest they take his gallbladder out to decrease the concentrated bile that spills out. heh heh it mght soothe the nerves of our (overly?) optimistic friends.

atf, got a seat for you sometime this year if you’d like to check out the other liars table guys at the phillips. be proud to share one of the two with you.

you too richie. if you didnt read it earlier, i went ahead and bought some seats in anticipation of your decent on atlanta this spring. they are handicap accessible for you. heh heh got to look out for the old guys or anyone a bit older than me…. bottom line more leg room for me.

aj son, you broke the whole blog man with your comments yesterday. since all we can do in the political arena is blame we might as well point the finger at you for cause since you were the last to post. political arena reminds me the abc’s of surgical residency was to accuse, blame and criticize. that was how we learned from our attendings and how to survive mortality and morbidity conferences each week.

ant ill be right behind you if you are in 111 very often this year.

matt er, nire metal (now where did that come from?) and ba glad to see you guys around a bit. matt, how is the law education going and you feeling better?

myk, swears until the ghost of woody is gone he is too, for now. maybe a few wins or desultory games at the start of the year will bring him back into the fold.

By ray

October 9, 2008 7:35 AM | Link to this

Marvin Williams had a very nice game last night. I would like to see more of those. He shot quite well from 3-point range. Consistency will be the key, however.

I know this is just preseason, but here’s a small, quiet hint: (Hawks coach Mike Woodson said that Williams assumed some of those minutes Evans might have played…I’m not trying to read too much into this, but defense is important, and we know that it is important to Woodson.

Right now, there is not a significant drop-off in offensive production when Marvin leaves the game and Mo comes in, at least not on a consistent basis (working off of the two preseason games we’ve seen so far). Which means the difference will be defense. Unless Marvin really cranks up his offense and/or cranks up his defense significantly, look for Evans to get some of the minutes Marvin would’ve assumed in the past.

Also, Evans won’t play Childress-like minutes because he doesn’t have to, with Flip Murray on board. That’s the beauty of having added two capable players at two positions, instead of having one playing several (a role Childress was thrust into). Furthermore, Acie is showing very solid play on his end, and if he continues to do this, we shouldn’t see Murray thrust into the pg role as much as we may have anticipated at first. Solo and Zaza ( you have to laugh at these “double vowel-double consonant names) are holding it down in the paint at PF anc Center, respectively. All of this comes down to something we haven’t had before: a balanced, capable lineup on the bench. Not only are they pushing the starters, they actually crank up intensity in some areas (i.e. Evans’ defense and Acie’s penetration).

Gotta love it. This bench will keep us in some games that we would have been totally lost in last year, and help us win others that we would have lost by only a bucket or two. What a difference this is making already.

I don’t know if Woodson will keep parting out the minutes the way he is right now. I expect that he won’t…but really, who knows? The smartest thing he can do is go with what works best, and we don’t know what that is yet, particularly in the regular season. Either way, I like our chances of success on a nightly basis much more than before. Our starters have got to play better defense, though.

By doc

October 9, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

yeah ray, it all looks good but just as there are two speeds between regular season and playoffs there are two speeds between pretend games which these are and the regular season. some teams are just working their way into shape and timing whereas some teams are trying to make a statement. we fall into the latter category. so, where we might be going all out i imagine shaq was holding back a bit as was nash knowing the toll of over 100 more games, the number of meaningful games they hopefully play, is yet to come.

shoot, even woody is sounding happy and positive. do you think he can keep that up into the regular season? guess he became a member of the HNE camp.

yes, these games are important for our guys but the luster will last about three games unless they win right away. some of the better teams dont really get it going until about the fifth or sixth game, we look as though we have already started. ray, not disputing you as i know you know it. let us see if these cats of the pretend season can take it up another notch or gear when it becomes real. i guess that is the HND camp outlook. i am working at successfully decoding the virus.

ray, even the refs are off their games probably calling them straight up rather than to please the commish. right sekou? heh heh, you know we agree on this one. follow the money baby.

By Lacsho

October 9, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Banks

That sounds like a plan, I’ll looking forward to seeing this team Saturday.

Early Tendencies

Three things I’ve notice thus far:

1) Woody is playing the bench, and the bench is responding rather well. I noticed Bibby was cold as ice, and Woody didn’t hesitate to put Law in. He left Law in the game, and once again Law with his cohorts became the game changers. Furthermore, RIO is the heart and soul of this team. His energy becomes contagious on the court, and he the other teammates respond well to his energy.

2) Marvin is not hesitating when he shoots the three. I’ll say it again; Marvin is one of the best shooters on this team. Marvin was a key component in last night’s victory. Bibby bothered me, his shot was not on, and he still kept launching threes. I was glad to see Woody snatch him out, and trust Law to lead the team. If Acie can keep this up, and remain consistent he will be the starter by January.

3) During both games the Hawks made their run in the third quarter. Anybody who has followed the Hawks knows that’s the quarter where they usually self-destruct. Furthermore, the Hawks second string has come into the game, and outplayed the first string. Woody is really tinkering with the line-ups, and I love it. He’s playing a lot of different combinations together. Finally, we have a bench that can flat out play. Bottom line the Hawks has started this marathon very strong, and they are winning on the road. Banks that why I said I wasn’t worried about the rough road outing in the beginning of the season.

*Female Bloggers After reading my last post I would like to apologize for the statement I made. I made a condescending remark, and I probably offended some of you. A lot of women don’t dwell on the past; in my previous relationships there where women who couldn’t let the past go. Fortunately, my wife has allowed me the comfort of making mistakes, and she never dwells on them. She just keeps it moving, and Lord knows I appreciate that. So please accept my apology.

Hawks Family Rise Up This is our year to make some serious noise. When the dust settles, the league will have to respect us.

By The Truth

October 9, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

This is a carry-over comment from a previous blog

What I am noticing early with this Hawks team is the potential swagger of the second unit. It could be the injection of the new veteran acquisitions. Last year the leader of the second unit was Chidress, who was still “green” by NBA standards. This year, the leadership is upgraded with a collection of much more years of experience and a portfolio of talent. These new veterans know their role and are getting paid to be a “SWAT Team” like group. This environment should be beneficial to players like Acie, Solo, and Morris. These players (and their fragile egos) are trying to reach their maximum potential and need recognition for their contribution. With our veteran leadership, they can feed on the second unit successes and individually become all they can be. This configuration has been the model for previous championship teams (Detroit,Lakers, Celtics, etc.) They always put a premium on strong bench players.

The excellent play of MO and Flip were expected and GM Sund should pat himselp on the back for making the acquisitions, but the maturation of Acie and even Solo is a pleasant surprise (so far). I know its early, but I will also give an early shout-out to Woody for appearing to adjust his mind-set to the depth and talent of his players. We shall see if this is just cosmetics or a real change in his coaching philosophy. I just hope that Morris gets fully exploited to evaluated his potential. Otherwise, he gets lost in translation. Then its a repeat of his NY Knicks experience.

By Astro Joe

October 9, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

Doc, so I guess my new nickname should be “blog-buster”. NOT. But I do love the politcial “game” almost as much as I love round-ball.

Ray, you may be right but I read Woody’s comments as meaning that Marvin should not have played that many minutes because Woody doesn’t want to give his starters too much time on the floor. The other starters played between 22-25 minutes while Marvin came in at a whopping 36. So I think Woody was explaining why he played Marvin much longer than the other starters. It seems like Hunter could have taken some of those minutes, but then again, Woody did say that he wants to win. So while he is going 10-11 deep, he hasn’t given Morris, Gardner or Hunter a lot of love (yet). Hopefully, Woody will give that “3rd unit” that Sekou described several days ago, about 8-10 minutes to run in the 4th quarter of one of these exhibition games. Win or lose, let them go out and ball and see what they have.

By A Thinking Fan

October 9, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Preseason is well, preseason - I thought…

By TruATLien

October 9, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

The moxie that the second unit is showing so far in preseason suggests to me that we won’t blow as many second half leads in road games as we did last year. We’re gonna need that for the tough early stretch.

By doc

October 9, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

you might say this is a see through sports item especially loved the pic of the commish which could be loosely related to basketball:

http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2008/10/08/who-is-excited-for-some-lingerie-football/?icid=100214839x1210788461x1200652162

By Hoops

October 9, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

You can say it’s pre-season and it’s early all you want, but a win is important to this Hawks team in order to build confidence. It’s very hard to win on the road in the NBA, but the Hawks have won twice. Another thing that I believe is huge, the Hawks Fans will get excited early in the season and help carry the team when tough times come, as they will during such a long season, if they continue the improvement that they are showing over the last two games.

Be there Saturday ATL and get behind your HAWKS

By Blast

October 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

Only Pre-season games, but I like what I see. Rise up, Hawks.

By fudd21

October 9, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

From just looking at the box score, the thing that really stood out to me was the 11 free throws and 18 points Josh had in 23 minutes. Attack the rim young fella. If Marvin keeps hitting the 3, that will give us 3 shooters that can stretch the defense opening up so much room for Josh to operate. I don’t think there are many PF in the league that could stay in front of him and keep him from getting to the rack.

Ray I tend to agree with Astro on the Marvin minutes. The other 4 average 23 minutes last night. I don’t think there’s anyone on this blog who believes Joe, Josh, and Al are going to play less than half the game. Woody intentions were to play Marvin about the same but with Mo going out someone had to get them.

Sekou I saw where Al was 5 for 6 from the field. Can you tell us how did he score. Was it in the low post where he went to work on someone or was it just put backs or dunks off assists. Overall would you say his low post game has improved?

By Lacsho

October 9, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

jdewayneatl

Nice assessment !!!

Hoops

You should meet me and Banks at the 122 portal…..

By Left knee hurts

October 9, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Good to see the Hawks come back in both games to get the W. A little worrisome both games started with the other team taking it to us. I did not not want to lose to the Suns minus Barbosa and Amare. Good comeback guys!

Interesting Horford mentioned Oden. Made me think back to that Nat’l Champ game where Billy Donavan tried everything he had to throw at Mr Old Man Oden. Gators won the game but Oden stood out that night to me.

I too have the good virus.

By Mike is back

October 9, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Woody has grown up some. Yeah, like everyone says, it very early, but I like what I’m seeing. Woody is making a conscious effort to get the bench involved as part of his Offensive and Defensive schemes.  If he continues this, he will certainly garner a measure of redemption around these parts.

Samuel, you called it on Woody, your prognosis could be right!!!!  

Man you gotta love Al, this guy is a man. He’s always all about the team. ZMan can really give this team another dimension if he continues his stout play. Flipp and Mo which way you wanna go. Stir it all up with Acie, Solo, Morris, and Mario and this,” Hawks Bench is Buzzzzzzzzzzing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

GO Hawks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Dan

October 9, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

Sekou

Any thoughts on why Randolph Morris is not getting much time. I understand his minutes will be limited once we’re playing games that count. The preseason, however, seems like a good time to see what he can do/not do.

I love that Marvin is taking, and making, his 3’s. I always hear that good players add one thing to their game every offseason. If Marvin can hit that shot, he will be a huge factor this season.

By Sekou K. Smith

October 9, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

Al scored on face up jumpers, one dunk and I think a layup (as best I can remember). His post up game had trouble finding the light against Shaq. But he faced Shaq up and made shots over him a couple of times. I’d expect to see him work like that often. He’s got he skills to do it.

As for playing time for both Randolph Morris and Othello Hunter, it’s going to be tight so long as Solomon and Zaza are logging significant minutes. I think there might be a break for one or both of those guys Friday night, though, as Zaza had to head back to Atlanta for personal reasons.

But like you, I want to see more from both of those guys.

By cp

October 9, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

I like what im reading and hearing about these Hawks. Marvin seems to be hitting the 3 with some ease. Hopefully this carries on into the regular season. Like someone above mentioned, having 3 shooters on the court allows Josh room to get in the lane and attack it like he is so good at.

Bibby is still shooting like he did in the playoffs. I think I read where he said he didnt really play any ball this summer. Well I hope he finds his shot because as we saw last season he is very hot and cold. When he is hot he is good but when he’s cold its ugly out there. Nice to see Law play with some confidence. I guess if Bibby has those cold games Woodson shoulnt have any problem putting law in. He is a better defender and penetrator.

By Gilley

October 9, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

I am still kind of concerned about Mike Bibby’s shooting touch. I wonder how did he get his 11 points against Orlando because he struggled to buy a bucket against Phoenix. Has he lost the stroke or did he just have a bad game?

By A Thinking Fan

October 9, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Doc you’re the MAN! I’ll be there this year partner…

Business had me on the lolo this past 10/11 months. SS blog keeps u plugged in when time-frames are tight & very short…

By doc

October 9, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

cool atf. look forward to it.

By Volman

October 9, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Great game, Hawks.

I will be hoisting my “SIGN MARIO” sign to the Open Practice!!!

Let’s Go Hawks!

By ant banks

October 9, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

are any of these games on tv? dang!! i been blowin’ up the remote lookin’ for them!!

WERE THERE ANY COMBINATIONS OF THE LINE-UP THAT HAD HORFORD AT THE 4? IF SO, WHO WAS THE 3 & 5? HOW DID THAT MATCH UP WORK?

we all agree that horford is a better 4 than 5.

By Lacsho

October 9, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Volman

I’ll be looking for your sign, and I might take your lead and make a sign myself. I extend the invitation to anyone going to Phillips this weekend… As I stated previously I’d look forward to meeting the Hawks Faithful.

Banks

I listen to all of the preseason games online. There’s a link on NBA.com. You feel out the registration form and you get instant access to the games (audio & video) If there’s a game on league pass you will get the video portion, if not you’ll receive the audio portion.

If I’m not mistaken Woody had a line up that consisted of Acie,Marvin,Flip,Al, and ZaZa. From the sounds of things it was working well, and then they substituted Solo for AL….

Woody made a nice adjustment, and it paid off in the second half. During the first half the first string was settling for a lot jump shots. As Sekou reported the 2nd half they started driving to the basket. Phoenix was in foul trouble early. They had this guy who played for philly last year, on the second team for phoenix (this guy went off on the hawks).

By kwooden1

October 9, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I listened until halftime last night, so I heard most of the rough part of the game for the HAWKS. What I heard was a lot of jump shots and a little weakness on the post-up defense. Though the team rebounded well in the first half and Marvin was being aggressive. I thought that they needed to take the ball to the basket more and get JJ involved more in the 2nd. Looks like they did both, but especially taking it to the basket. From what I heard Marvin played well if not very well. His stats were very good, (remembering that he played the most minutes of anyone) led the team in points (19), tied for the most assists (4) and steals (2), and second in rebounds (6). Not to mention 3 of 5 from 3. His production and aggressiveness will really help JS, as stated above Smoove will have more space to drive. What I heard though was again Woody didn’t get the guys pushing the ball or driving to the basket in the first half. I’m glad to hear they changed in the second, but that should be the mindset all the time. Make teams deal with our speed at the Center and PF positions. I think Bibby’s shot will be fine soon, he just needs to drive the basketball more.

Overall I think the last two games were very good for the bench and for the starters. Bench is really getting confidence and the starters are starting to get into a rhythm.

6 more games until the real bullets start flying! GO HAWKS!

By ray

October 9, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Doc, true, true. Although I wouldn’t say Shaq was holding back with 21 points and 10 rebounds. Like I said, we’ll continue to discuss things back and forth as far as the preseason goes. Same “discussions” every year. And every year somebody gets all wrapped around the axle about it. Usually several somebodies. I guess some things never get left in the past, despite the best intentions. Heh.

Astro Joe, I don’t know what’s going on, which is why I ventured my idea. All I can say is that this isn’t the norm for what we’ve seen from Woody in regards to minutes. Having said that, I think it is wholly premature to think that Woody is going to do exactly what he’s doing now… in the regular season. If, as Doc suggests, other teams are simply working out their kinks while we go full blast, then we might see something different. I don’t know. I do know that I’m enjoying early signs of legit productivity from our bench players.

I hope to see more from guys like Hunter and Morris as well as anybody else. But, they have their work cut out for them. I have to imagine both guys (like Gardner as well) are very much in the “learning Hawks basketball” phase, and that is why they are not seeing much court time. That, and the solid play of Solo and Zaza.

Lacsho,

Interesting comment on Acie. Before, many people were saying that Bibby is the best guy at point guard for us…by a margin. That should still hold true, but Acie clearly is a better penetrator. Some days/weeks back, I was talking about the style of play and role that Bibby has played in most of his NBA years. The role he is in now is not that same role. It may be that Acie fits that role better than Bibby does. Or it may be that Bibby is just working out the kinks right now. As for Acie starting by January, that’s an interesting idea.

It even fuels the idea of Bibby being traded, which has been a subject of near bitter debate here. Interesting. Very interesting.

By Lacsho

October 9, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Honestly, and I know I’m going to get raked over the coals for this comment. I like Bibby, but he’s not the right point guard for this team. Bibby is a shoot first point guard. This team needs a point guard that’s going to get everyone involved. Again, I think Acie is a distributor, and then he looks to score. We have enough scorers on the team; we need to get them the ball. Bibby was needed last year, due to Woody failing to develop Acie. 90% of Bibby misses last night resulted in long rebounds to the other team, which led to easy fast break points. I think Flip was acquired so we could move Bibby for another big body.

By doc

October 9, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

please dot think of it as negative, only tempered ray. those guys could be failing miserably instead they are delivering. it will boost their initial confidence coming out of the gate.

i am also impressed that everybody is on the same page including the coach. the talk back and forth and the quotes certainly leads me to believe that the team s definitely in the HNE camp. that is huge and solid!

By ray

October 9, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Lacsho, that’s actually what I had been thinking when I brought the subject up. Sam and I kinda batted the idea back and forth, as did some others. We’ll see (are we getting tired of that cliched phrase yet?).

Some will disagree and with valid arguments. My argument is based partially on what Bibby is used to, what his strengths are and always have been. I’m not trying to throw the guy in the trash at all, but a fit is a fit. The question will be just how he does fit, and what Woodson recognizes as to how that goes.

Personally, I think it’s Acie’s penetration capability that makes him a better distributor. While I could not in good conscience compare him to Billups, that’s the type of player I see him being. He’s definitely a threat, but I see him as a threat that can back off of the scoring when he needs to, and still be very effective.

I don’t know that Bibby can do the same thing, in the same fashion. He seems to need to be gunning it out there…or he doesn’t seem to be doing much.

Again, not clowning the guy, just trying to recognize his game for what it is, and where it fits best. But…..we’ll see. Could be dead wrong about all of it.

By richbrave

October 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

ray:

Sent you a tidy little response to your condolence post from the last blog regarding the WIZ, but I see SEKOU’s venue locked up and it was lost in transition. Well, it was basically, if POLLIN and GRUNFELD had followed my advice they wouldn’t have worried about ARENAS or JAMISON’s injuries. They might have then outbid PHILA for ELTON BRAND and had money for another FA.

Anyway, today’s info is bad on HAYWOOD, out extended with torn wrist ligament, and good on JAMISON, just a bruised knee. At least that’s what the club is sayin’. Who knows. Also, YOUNG and DIXON have knee issues.

I’m sayin’ the WIZARDS may be out of the play-offs and ATLANTA’s journey to them just got easier.

By richbrave

October 9, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

ray:

Oh yeah. And if the WASHINGTON club does make the play-offs credit EDDIE JORDAN.

Sounds like the WOODEN-one’s detractors are beginning to believe he may not be so wooden after all. Using his bench.? Cool. Now if he can scheme a proper set of offensive and defensive ops, the HAWKS fly high.!!!!

I’ll maintain my wait and see position. After all its the pre-season. After the first few tight circumstances during regular season, he may revert to his old form. We’ll see soon enough.

By Ramon

October 9, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

Bibby’s the man for this team, point blank. Some noticed he had a bad game shooting, however, it was Sekou who stated last week Bibby was shooting lights out. Bibby being on the court opens things up more than Acie’s presence. When Acie is on the court, teams can cheat on JJ with their point. If you bring Acie in, it leads to more jumpers for Smooth, because it allows the defense to block more lanes.

As far as being a facilitator, I think Webber, Peja, Vlade, and more were all happy with the touches they got when Bibby was leading them to the playoffs yearly. Bibby can easily average 10 assists a game, along with 13 points. So to say he’s a shoot first point and Acie isn’t is very questionable. Acie has never shown to be a facilitator for more than one game at a time. Actually, he’s more comfortable when he is able to shoot when ever he desires.

The problem with that is he doesn’t have range on his shot. I like Acie alot, and wanted him over Crittenton (and Conley). However, he’s not ready to lead this team over Bibby. In a 7 game series (when Bibby’s healthy), there’s no way you choose Law over Bibby THIS season. You have to think about, on the team, who TRUSTS Law more than Bibby in decision making. Besides Law (possibly), I can’t think of anyone who would.

Please understand that to make ANY roster changes after 2-3 games, or to campaign for such, is not good coaching. If that was the case Horry would’ve started over Duncan in the playoffs, or Terry would start over Kidd.

By ray

October 9, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Doc, don’t worry. I know it’s tempered enthusiasm and not negative energy. Been around long enough to know the difference. The fact that you go to games and care enough to keep blogging says it all. Well, assuming that one does not take things out of context, anyway. Besides, you have seats….I know you’re on the wagon, even if you check your position and the wagon speed from time to time. Nothin’ wrong with that. After all, it’s your money.

I’d probably have tix too if I lived close enough. 3+ hours is a bit much for that kind of investment though.

RichBrave, it’s just not their year. Still, Eddie Jordan perseveres, and so do his guys. Still think that Arenas ain’t yet worth that dough….and may never be. He can’t even use the McGrady excuse…but enough of that for now. Better luck next time, I guess.

As for Woody, I’m always hopeful, but never overflowingly so. Still, I’ll give credit when and where it is due. Looks good right now. As you say, when the belt begins to tighten, we will know what he and the crew are made of.

By MannyT

October 9, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

doc can you write the collective blog a script for some Blog-zac? It only has to last until the end of the fake 8 (preseason). We can live with a natural high/low in the regular season.

I don’t think DrMaryB will be doing the Chiro for that LFL. If there is an Atlanta team, I’m one of those here who embraces the less popular sports. So I’ll take one for the blog and check it out ;-) Given that one of the Hawks dancers did a Sky Squad stunt late last season, how long before this sort of thing trickles into basketball?

To all on the manic end of the blog bench

I get the just win baby attitude, but the only thing you get in October that might carry over is confidence. I am not too worried about the vets having confidence, but it is nice to hear AC is getting some. I don’t think it hurts to spread some of that love to the other young guys on the bench. Good to hear that Marvin has a legit 3 pt shot. Looks like he’s on track to make more 3s in October than he took all last season.

Winning does NOT hurt a bit…even in October.

To those on the depressed/suspicious end of the blog bench

Recall this time last year. At the open house, Woody made a great speech about his running game. It was just like the gas pumps last month. Running fast for a little bit, then all out. Try another station. Check the real highlights in December and see if they look similar to those of the fake 8.

Now that the Braves are done, I am happy to step in for DOB sort of and recognize the lack of blog earlier this week and pay tribute to some old school James Bond/Goldfinger. I was surprised at how few words I had to change to do this.

They call them Blog breakers

BlogBreaker

He’s the man, the one with the harshest touch A blogger’s touch Such a cold finger Beckons you to enter his web of sin But don’t go in

Evil words he will pour in your ear But his rants can’t disguise what you hear For a wiser one knows when he’s pizzed ya It’s the post of death

From mister Blogbreaker Silly one, beware his post of gold His heart is cold

Evil words he will pour in your ear But his rants can’t disguise what you fear For another one knows when he’s pizzed ya It’s the post of death

From mister Blogbreaker Silly one, beware his post of gold His heart is cold He loves only blog Only blog He loves blog He loves only blog Only blog He loves blog

By ray

October 9, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

Manny…..heh heh heh…all I can do is chuckle…wryly…

By Big-Man

October 9, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Couple editing mistakes. 8 points and second rebounds for Zaza? 27-11 edge in second half points?

By MannyT

October 9, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

ray I am sure that there was more than one contributor to the fun.

Wish you were here for Saturday. It would be interesting to line up the fans based on how much they believed what is said. I am sure that some will be on the bandwagon as if the Hawks didn’t exist prior to their most recent playoff appearance.

And there will be others who will not believe until there is a parade with a trophy going through the city.

As usual, my camp falls somewhere in between.

…and I will try very hard to be on even handed behavior as long as we are playing fake games.

Gotta run…but I should be back later if the blog is still up.

BWAF

By ant banks

October 9, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

does any one know how other teams in our conference looked? this will be our immediate competition: wizards, miami, orlando, charlotte.

we have always had magic number, wizards have key injuries, charlotte is garbage and miami have too many wholes.

i see 44-47 wins baby!!

if we have a winning season and make the playoffs, what are we going to say about woody?

By ray

October 9, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

Manny, in answer to your first comment: there always is…

Wish I could be there, too. My stance falls in between as well. I refuse to attend any sort of camp, though. Call me a holdout…lol…

By kirknga

October 9, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

So nice to see all the positive energy flowing towards the team. Looks like the predictions that the Hawks bench would be dismal without Childress were premature.

I wish Coach Woodson could have found more minutes for Solomon last night, Shaq was dominate and the experience would serve his development well. A few rebounds and a block last night, not bad for the few minutes of action he saw.

These first three preseason games feature opponents with large and talented front courts, I think Solomon needs to be in there, and Morris as well.

Bibby continues to struggle as others have noted, but I still don’t sense that Acie will emerge as a better option.

By Ken Strickland

October 9, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

Hey, you guys had better watch what you say about Marvin. I’m still licking the wounds I received this summer for defending Marvin & his importance to this team. He’s as big & as strong, if not bigger & stronger, than most NBA SF’s. He’s a high percentage shooter, now with 3pt range, and can take it to the basket. He’s repidly becoming a complete player & will force teams to reconsider double teaming any of our other players. Marvin and JJ could end up being the most consistent and versatile scorers, of our starting 5. We now have 5 starters that can put a team away on any given night in a variety of ways.

For a HC that’s, so far, proven to be rather rigid, inflexible & one dimensional, Woodson suddenly has an awful lot of versatility, flexibility, depth & OFF firepower at his disposal. THIS IS GOING TO ONE HELL OF AN EXCITING SEASON FOR US, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

By Ramon

October 9, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

Ken, Marvin can take it to the basket now?

By ant banks

October 9, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

ken are you aware of what you are sayin’? if we have one hell of an exciting season, that would mean that you would be eatin’ crow ‘cause “a hell of a season” would mean that woody coachin’ his azz off.

By ray

October 9, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

There goes that virus again….

By Lacsho

October 9, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

There is another common theme for the first two preseason games. The hawks have outscored their opponents in the last three quarters of each game. They’re experiencing problems in the first quarter. If they can outscore their opponents in the first quarter, can the second team come in and put the other team away? Why they play with the same intensity?

Man I wish I could view this Portland game tomorrow. Fernandez from Portland is nice. Portland took an L from Golden State last night and it appears their starters played major minutes. Oden is a beast on the offensive boards. I’d love to see the Oden vs Horford match up. I’m putting my money on Big Al….

By Gypsyjoe

October 9, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

I was just over on the Hawks web page and there is a new guy on the Roster,Daibor Bagaric. Does anybody know anything about him he is a big dude.

By The Truth

October 9, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure what’s-up with this player, Daibor Bagaric regarding the Hawks. It appears that he had agreed to terms to return to a Europe league club called Fortitudo Bologna for the coming 2008-09 season. Since he is on our roster, I assume he changed his mind.

http://www.eurocupbasketball.com/ulebcup/home/news/i/36006/448

By richbrave

October 9, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this

doc:

Took profits and bailed last week. Went back in this week expecting a rebound. Oops! DOW down 39% year over year and 21% in TWO DAYS with futures down hundreds overnight tonight. If I don’t see some traction soon, I won’t have the coin left for next year’s double-header in ATLANTA. Whew.!!! BIG bear market.!!! Commercial paper beginning to ease down, but the FED has to backstop that overnight bank lending market, and NOW!!!! By tuesday the DOW will be at 7,000 otherwise.

By Ariose

October 9, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this

Ultimate pick up game

Team Addidas: Josh Smith, KG, Billups, Jordan Farmer, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard……and more.

…..So anyway, I watched Europe Live today. If anyone thinks that the Heat, the Nets or the Bulls are making the playoffs you’re CRAZY. They all SUCK BIG-TIME. You might as well put the bucks in that category as well….trash. I’m calling it and at the end of the seasoon you’ll all see that I was right. There’s NO WAY any of those teams get A GAME off of the Hawks this season (and that’s with us playing like garbage). I mean, I felt sorry for those people in Europe who paid money to witness such a sorry display of basketball. Hollinger will eat his words (once again) and i’m gonna let him have it at the end of the season.

…..And this has absolutely nothing to do with how well or poorly the Hawks play. My assumption is completly based on the completly gabage displays of basketball i’ve been witnessing from those other squads.

…..In other news, I WAS excited about our matchup with Portland. But Now that Martell Webster, Rudy Fernandez, Joel Pryzbillia are ALL injured….I really don’t care. Not to mention that Channing Frye and steve blake have been on the shelf for a while now. The only thing i’m interested in seeing is how well our bigs handle Greg Oden. We houldn’t have a problem winning the game though. I hope Brandon Roy plays. JJ has a little payback in store for him i’m sure lol.

~SalimFan Sir Links A Lot

By reese

October 9, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

OK, I’m happy that the bench is playing well. I’m happy that the hawks are winning.

However, what has to happen to allow more playing time for the teams big men. There are 96 minutes to be distributed between the 4 and 5 positions.

Josh Smith, Al Horford, Zaza and Solo played 74 minutes against phoenix. That left 22 minutes to be distributed between Morris and Hunter. So to say that Marvin took Evan’s minutes seems strange to me. It would seem that Marvin played the 4 and took minutes from Morris and Hunter.

It would have been interesting to see how Morris played against his AAU teammate Dwight Howard. It would have been interesting to see how Morris matched up against Shaq.

Also, has Josh Smith spent any time playing the small forward position along with two bigs in the game.

Watching the Boston vs Philly game peaked my interest even more to have our bigs play more. Why, because Patrick O’bryant matched up alongside Kevin Garnett and had 10 pts, 8 rbs and 3 blocks in 24 minutes. He looked like a totally different player with increased playing time.

Hopefully, Woodson will increase the playing time of Morris and Hunter and both of those players will take advantage of that time.

By Good Ole Kirk

October 9, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this

Wow. Sure is funny what 2 preseason wins can do. Where did the Woody detractors disappear to? All of a sudden, you bandwagon jumpers love the guy! This is rich. I don’t even feel the need to cut and paste. You guys are too much. Where are the real fans? Where are the people who stood strongly behind the HC, even after the tough loss in G7 to Boston? 2 preseason wins, and ya’ll want to jump on the “Woody’s awesome train.” Unbelievable! Persoanlly, I support the guy and always have. You don’t have to take this post as an example. If you’re bored enough to do so, search back to last spring or summer. Read my comments and make your judgment. It just puzzles me, that after 2 unofficial victories, everybody loves Mike Woodson. That’s all it takes? Man, this blog space was filled with serious “fire Woody” sentiment just months ago. 2 meaningless wins, and ya’ll love the guy. Get real! A loud ding! to you all!!

By MannyT

October 10, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

Gypsyjoe/Truth I can only guess that the scoreboard operator got into roster on the website ;-) Article referred to him playing in the past (about 6 years ago) for Chicago.

kirknga As Ronald Regan used to say during election season there you go again

Much of the Chills chatter was not about him or Evans/Murray, but could it have been him and the new guys. The other part of the bench question was squarely on Woody. Will he play the bench in regular season games that matter or will JJ once again be on the all NBA first team for minutes played.

The fake 8 show signs of promise, but similar signs were there last year.

ray they are calling it an open house. It is probably the only chance during the season to see the players up close when it is not game time. I know you are curious about the added bulk on Solomon & Marvin. I am sure you want the BCU to confirm the status of Dalibor Bagaric. These things can happen at the open house.

This link might be best chance to hear Portland game. http://www.955thegame.com/

BWAF

By DAP01

October 10, 2008 7:42 AM | Link to this

I am happy that we are 2-0 in the preseason. I am especially happy that the starters are going to be improved and that we now have subs that can bring it each night.

But lost in all of the excitement of the win against the Suns is the fact that we had people like Morris and others on the bench who may or not make the team not even getting 1 minute in the 2nd preseason game.

If Morris is developed, we will go a lot futher than playing not even letting him play.

Woody….

By doc

October 10, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

kirk and kirk, funny you seem to shout earlier, “cant we move on” and then you come back and throw up your own stuff. only now you are suggesting to folks that critiqued rather than hated or judged, as you want to call it, missing that they had specific points about the performance of woody and the loss of chills and now that they are so much less than you. who is judging?most see it was more a need for our beloved hawks unfulfilled in the past and it was those specific points that needed to be changed. it surely wasnt to denounce the additions which we had observed we needed for years. ultimately, does that make us “more right”, as if i cared, that the team was underfunded and outmanned to now finally have become part of the nba? did that make the critics less a fan? it was all about becoming a legitimate team that could win against the best and show us good basketball consistently. that was all the interest has been. period. get over it.

as far as chills, last time i looked he is still on the roster and taking up cap space so even the organization has seen the quality of the guy or have you forgotten? if not and if he had no value bridges would have been burned and he would have been not counting on our cap. silly to see that he hasnt a place here even if it is to fill up the cap and be a possible trade for something down the road. yes an asset either coming or going, hopefully; if you are a true fan. he is still with us in some capacity so one cant consider him gone.

funny as you looked at the earlier comments kirk; that you declare victory of sort of substance after what two games in the pretend season as well while now denouncing the objective “critics” who are giving cred when it is due and you suggest it is hypocrisy when it is objectivity. isnt that suggesting some lack of hate mentality by the critics or are you just plain unable to see the focus of what is said beyond your own effort to be right? you really dont make much sense if that is the case.

yup a clear bell just went off …DING.

most of us see it for what it is dude. come back and speak specifics as if you understand the process rather than spew your own hate here…… or self righteousness.

By doc

October 10, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

richie, yup concerned though i have seen the potential for it to some degree for some time. where is traction? at one time last week hoping for 8000, not so sure anymore.

By Astro Joe

October 10, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Doc, I just noticed that the Sac Kings hired Marietta’s own Shareef as an assistant coach. He retired maybe 2-3 weeks ago so I’m not faulting the Hawks for not bringing him in during this off-season. But, if he is available next year, it sure would be nice to have a big man coach who actually had success scoring and rebounding in the league. SAR may not have been the greatest player for the Hawks, but no one can doubt his offensive skills nor the fact that he is a genuinely good guy and very community oriented. I’m guessing that he would enjoy being home and helping guys like Horford, Morris & Solo develop a potent low post game.

By doc

October 10, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

aj, with the addition of price and ferrell one gets the impression that there may be a new rule of thought here that opens doors rather than shuts them. dale davis would be another guy to toughen up these guys as an assistant and one i would pursue in a heart beat now as an assistant and keep him in sharp or the playoff run.

By Astro Joe

October 10, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

Doc, good point. Price & Ferrell appear to be Sund hires, as they are not technically a part of the coaching staff. I have to admit, I like the way Sund has managed the periphery of the team. It certainly feels more like a big league operation… with veteran depth, better camp logistics and experienced resources like Price & Ferrell. That stuff doesn’t usually translate to winning 8 out of the first 10 games, but it certainly does help over the long haul.

Sekou, what’s the scoop on Bagaric? And Zaza heading back to Atlanta? Are they related?

By MannyT

October 10, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

The case of the used car dealer and the media empire.

Who tried to pull the fast one?

Looking at the auto industry these days, would this have been a better or worse deal for the teams?

PAIN?

By Aaron B

October 10, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

I will have to interject with a few of my opinions on this Al needing to be a 4 in stead of a 5… I don’t agree. You see, part of what makes Al so good at what he does is his energy and aggressiveness in the post. Typically big men in the 5 spot are just large and use most of their energy just moving those gigantic bodies from one end of the court to the other. This tends to only allow them brief moments of energy for hustling both on the offensive and defensive ends.

I think that Al moves at 4’s pace, maybe even a 3’s but has the strength of a 5 which seems to “out hustle” his opponents. If we moved him back to a 4, he would then have better matches as far as strength but would have less of an advantage in the way of energy. Hustle is his game, and the energy he brings down at that 5 spot is rare.

Another look at it; Also there is a theory that if you know you have to hustle to have a change at beating a guy due to size differences, then it encourages more hustle. However if you know that you can easily out muscle them, it may become more of a lazy lean on the them kind of thing.

Just my thoughts…

By A Thinking Fan

October 10, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Game time tonight - what is the SS blog line on the game? Hawks win/lose?

By terrell barron

October 10, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

Marvin, TRAVELING again? How does an NBA player get so many traveling calls? Just messin with you Marvin. Glad to see you shooting the 3 ball. I still say we should go with Bibby, JJ, Evans, Smoove, and Al. And bring you off the bench, as the 6th man, but I doubt old stubborn butt will listen. Yeah, I’m talking to you Woody.

By terrell barron

October 10, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Ken, YOU better watch what you say about Marvin. He was Summer League MVP one year and I thought he was finally turning into the player that he was hyped up to be. Guess what? I’ll believe it when I see it. He’s not a BUST as some people like to call him, but come on Ken.

By fudd21

October 10, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

terrell, I’m just curious but what about Ken’s statement do you not agree with?

By The Truth

October 10, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

I’m still intrigued with this new Big (Daibor Bagaric) on our roster. This guy stands at 7’1” 290 lbs. Reading his bio, he has bounced around a lot (@ age 28) and he seems to have had adjustment issues when playing for the Bulls during 2000-2003. It seem strange for him to be on our roster without any press. I can’t even find him on the overall NBA roster. Maybe his name is a “typo”. Maybe not; he wears number 11. I can’t wait to hear the real 411. I know Sekou is on this, right?

By Ken Strickland

October 10, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

RAMON-Marvin was one of the teams top FT shooters, both percentage and attempts wise. He didn’t accomplish that by shooting midrange jumpshots.

ANT BANKS-it could also mean Woodson gets fired and his replacement ends up coaching his AZZ off.

RAY-I got that. LOL

TERRELL-too many people judge players based on their draft positions and say Marvin hasn’t lived up to his. By the same token, JSmith seem to have certainly exceeded his. Regardless of their draft positions, together they form a strong, talented, rapidly improving pair of bookend forwards. Summer leagues give players a certain amount of experience and/or exposure, but it’s not a valid tool for developing or judging the development of players. Remember Dion Glover? This will be Marvin’s 4th yr and last yr was his 1st as a fulltime starter. He managed 15PPG and 6RPG as the 4th scoring option, which might not be what you want or expected, but it’s certainly not bad. Marvin, like all of our other young core players, has made steady progress each yr, except for his 2nd yr when he broke his hand.

Some of you seem to have the same negative assessment of Marvin that certain sports writers had about JSmith when he was drafted. Far too often one’s opionions are derived by focusing on what is perceived a player hasn’t or can’t do, rather than what that player has done or can do. We must also consider circumstances. Having a full yr as an NBA starter obviously had a more positive effect on JSmith than a full yr of coming off UNC’s bench had on Marvin. Also, having 4 full yrs as a NBA starter vs 1 full yr as an NBA starter also makes a difference. Don’t be too quick to judge.

By Astro Joe

October 10, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

The Truth, you do realize that Bagaric is probably a John Edwards type player, right? I mean, don’t expect that the Hawks discovered our ideal center in European clearance sale? I’m also interested, mostly because it doesn’t seem like there is any room in the inn for this guy. We have 12 guaranteed contracts, not including Hunter, Gardner and West. And since most teams only go with 14 players (as Sekou mentioned in the piece about Mario), then I don’t get having 16 guys with potentially 14 slots. Maybe Woody just needs a big body for practice while Zaza takes care of whatever issue he is handling in Atlanta.

By Ariose

October 10, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this

so zaza won’t be playing tonight????

……I just figured he’d be back before the game……if not, hopefully we’ll get to see morris get some minutes…..hopefully against oden.

By The Truth

October 10, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe, that’s the only logical explanation. Since this guy has already agreed to play for this Euro tream, Fortitudo Bologna for the upcoming season, suggests that he is just working out or practicing with the Hawks. Nothing more, Nothing less. However, given that same logic, why pay this money (though small for short-term) when the Hawks could just play Morris more in his absence and/or give Solo more playing time. I can’t believe they would make this move just to win pre-season games. If they want to throw money around like that, then they should suit me up. (just kidding)

By terrell barron

October 10, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

He’s repidly becoming a complete player. He just started shooting 3’s. How does he now all of a sudden have 3 pt range? It’s been 1 summer. What took him so long in the 1st place? He knew that NBA sf’s needed to have range, before he was drafted. He should been adding that shot to his game 2 or 3 years ago. Now dont get me wrong, I’m glad he’s finally realizing that if your a sf in the NBA, you should have more than just a mid range jumper. lol!! I’m excited about this new Hawks team, but I’m not buying into the Marvin hype again. I’m sorry. I dont care how much bigger and stronger he’s gotten. I guess it’s a good thing he spent his summer working out, but like I said earlier, I’ll believe it when I see it. Prove me wrong Marvin, and I’ll apologize. I still view him as the odd man out though, and apparantely so does Sund. I read on the Sporting News that he WAS NOT expected to recieve an extension. But if he shines, I’m sure things could change. We shall see.

By Astro Joe

October 10, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

The Truth, I’m thinking that they need him for practice, not pre-season games. They cut the other big guy, Olejedi (or something like that) last week. So they may just need a practice squad guy, not neccesarily someone who will see the court during these exhibition games (or only for 12 minutes in garbage time).

By ant banks

October 10, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

will the revolution be televised…i meant the game?

By The Truth

October 10, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

terrell barron, I think Marvin is already playing under an extended rookie contract. This is his 4th year. According to links, Marvin is not a candidate for another extension contract:

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=467877

Marvin will be a restricted free agent in 2009-2010. If he plays well, I’m sure there will be other suitors and lots of drama.

By ILL-Logical

October 10, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Ok people, SS just gave you the answer to the test in his latest dead tree edition column:

The entire NBA knows that Marvin is the weak link in the current starting lineup. But not only because of his defense but his reaction to being “pressured” as well.

If the current incumbant in the HC position is the defensive minded coach he maintains he is, then there is a problem.

Hopefully this pre-season helps to determine how best to address it for the long term good of the team and its playoff ambitions.

By Ariose

October 10, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

ILL….that’s NOT what sekou meant. It has nothing to do with marvin being pressured. He was just saying how marvin stepped up and led the second unit to vicktory in the waning minutes of the game. You’re right about Marvin being the weakest link in the startung unit though……..although if bibby doesn’t get his game on track it will be a tie….

~Sir Links A Lot

By richbrave

October 10, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

doc:

Finally got a little traction today on the rally. Bought an ALABAMA REIT early and it held up. Still down big overall, about 14% since July 1. All my local bank stocks slid. Biggest long-term holdings up slightly.

Commercial paper continued to ease ever so slightly. European banks beginning to lend amongst one another with the BRITISH guarantees. Probably should be done here also. The LIBOR in the U.S. still high on the long end. Daily rates dropped significantly however, 2+%. Bodes well for the banks and the U.S. market overall. Now if the $$$$ will be lent out short-term and the payments made in return, we’ll be on the track toward recovery. Gonna’ be a long-haul I’m afraid with several forseeable pit-falls. Fortunately, I’m just 65 so I don’t have to pull out IRA payments yet. Some gossip of relaxing the 70 1/2 rule also. That would be sweet if there’s anything left in 5 years.

Oh, and go FALCONS. GO HAWKS. Come on WOODY, this is your last chance. Dump that control freak mentality. Use those playa’s and subs to their best advantage, and become coach of the year as the HAWKS take a division Championship.

Excuse the investment report and the silly prognostications. I’m still in shock and venting some relief. Dealing in dreams is necessary after today’s roller-coaster session. WHEW.!!!!

By Ariose

October 10, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

Max-Plus Contracts????

~Sir Links A Lot

By Astro Joe

October 10, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

It looks like I may be showing up at the open practice tomorrow. I’ll be late, but hopefully, I’ll be there in time to see Horford accidently run over Woody. Maybe I’ll be able to meet some of you guys for the first (or second) time.

By doc

October 10, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

WARNING guys this is not bbal so scroll if you wish!

hear ya richie, again i have hoped for a floor at 8000 when i began to smell it in the summer. been waiting for about 8 to 9 years for the other shoe to drop secondary to the housing market. i believe greenspan economics is a failure and propped it up as long as it could and only made it worse as there is a certain entitlement factor in the market from the big wigs all the way down. no accountability for poor performance.

folks might not want to hear it but i believe higher taxes on the extreme personal income wealth that has been propagated in the worldcom, enron and the financial markets of the world to say about 80% of earnings for those silly “salaries” or more. it would balance out what i think they did at enron (no make that i know they did since i knew one of their highest folks who got out before the feds arrived) to essentially print money. the higher taxes would wipe out the incentive for short term gains. i would reduce taxes to business where all employees benefit as it would answer some of the problems.

it is ridiculous to say that a salary of 250000 which is the top end for the upper tax bracket is the same as one of those filthy 250mil take out orders some of the big wigs asked for and received. talk about pork barrell. funny i read one of the top execs at lehman which went down was a bush relative. guess they had to let it go to avoid favoritism but these guys knew what was coming down if i did. delevering is the term of the day. yuck!

hopefully the weekend brings some sanity to the marketplace.

By Ken Strickland

October 10, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

TERRELL BARRON-Marvin came into this league off UNC’s bench only 1yr removed from high school. He had a lot on his plate to deal with and I’m certain developing a 3pt shot wasn’t at the top of anyone’s list. His 2nd yr he broke his wrist and had to wear a cast. I think you’ll agree, that’s not condusive to developing a 3pt shot. Last yr, he took 10 3pt shots and made 1. That shows he had 3pt range, but not 3pt accuracy. This preseason, he’s shooting a very high percentage on his 3pt attempts. In fact, I’m not certain if he’s missed a single 3pt shot.

Think about it TERRELL, Marvin has taken at least half as many 3pt shots in 2 preseason gms as he took all of last season and has made most if not all of them. And you can’t see that as progress? Nobody becomes a complete player all at once. It usually comes in stages and that’s what we’re seeing with Marvin and Josh. Some of you complained about his lack of 3pt range and he’s worked on that. Now you’re saying it’s not enough? Take it from someone that’s suffered the effects of a broken wrist/hand. Marvin should be commended for what he’s accomplished in terms of increasing his range while also strengthening his wrist.

When he was drafted, the Hawks knew he’d be a project, just like JSmith. In fact, the Hawks have drafted only 2 players under Woodson that wasn’t consider projects, SWilliams and AHorford. I can’t understand the logic in wanting to start Evans over Marvin. Evans has proven he’s effective coming off the bench, Marvin hasn’t. Besides, Evans has never matched the numbers Marvin put up last yr. So what’s the gain or logic in taking the risk by making the change?

By ray

October 10, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Wish I could be there….

Ken, I thought you might catch that small comment…heh heh heh.

All this talk about Marvin….”consistent improvement” has been and will continue to be the key phrase. In other words, he has to be consistently improved, not improved in this game, but not improved for the next 10 games. I’m kind of past worrying about his offense. I’d be happy seeing better defense and rebounding efforts. All the time people keep talking about him being so big and strong. He says he’s big and strong. Okay, I’ll buy that. 6’9 and 245. That’s about as big as Al. That’s bigger than Josh. So why the pedestrian rebound numbers?

By The Truth

October 10, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

Ray, here is the 2008 stat facts on Marvin per game: 14.8 Pts 5.7 rebounds and 1.7 assists. He did this while splitting time with Childress. Now look at the top 5 sf in the NBA from the link below:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43243-the-nbas-top-five-small-forwards

If you just compare rebounds, Marvin is almost comparable to number 2 Paul Pierce who totals 6 rebounds season avg. The best top 5 sf rebounder is Shawn Marion who totals 10 rebounds season avg. He ranks 5th overall. But here is the thing about Marvin. Again, he split time with Childress last year. So minutes may not compare equally with these top 5 sf(s). As can see, Marvin is not that far off from being in this elite group. Given Marvin’s maturation and increase playing time, I can easily see him being in that elite group soon and that’s not a stretch.

By MannyT

October 10, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

Ariose The crumbling stock market makes this as good a time as any to look into max versus max plus contracts. I don’t know where the term max plus originated, but this is really about the time value of money. Most folks are more familiar with it in terms of the lottery. Do you get that big check at one time or spread it out evenly over lots of years so you won’t be broke five years from now?

In the lottery, you get less if you take it all now. (Maybe 10 mil now versus 1 mil a year for 20 years.)

In the NBA with a salary cap, you cannot give a player different amounts of money, but you can control how he gets it. Remember the big thing about JJ’s contract when he came here was the upfront $20 mil in year 1. Due to a new collective bargaining agreement since then, I do not think you can do that one anymore.

However, let’s look at our friends Josh Smith and Monta Moped Ellis (ignoring any riding penalties that might impact his deal.) Monta got 6 yrs/66 mil (avg 11 mil/yr) and Josh got 5 yrs/58 mil (avg 10.6 mil/yr). Clearly, Monta makes more in total and more on average. However, if Monta’s deal follows standard max salary increases of 10% for getting the contract from his own team, it would annually play out (in millions) as 8.8, 9.68, 10.56, 11.44, 12.32, and 13.2.

Josh’s deal can only have 8% raises because it came from another team, so it would play out (in millions w/rounding) as 9.91, 10.70, 11.58, 12.46, and 13.34.

Monta starts with a lower base, but gets bigger raises, so who really has the better deal?

In efforts to improve the cash value of the same numbers, you can pay a percentage as a signing bonus (up to 20% I believe), pay the money earlier in the season (see Kobe example from your link), and add trade bonuses (to give raise that almost works like NBA version of minor poison pill)

Even if you don’t get exotic, Kobe could put $10 mil of that into a low risk investment that yield a lousy 1% over 6 months, he pockets another $100k just for getting his money early. According to my boys in teh Census office, that 100k is better than 80% of average US households in 2007, so I think most folks would say it was worthwhile to get those lines into his contract. I guess those 0.1millions add up ;-)

I don’t know what is in LeBron’s deal, but I can guess that someone was paid to go over the CBA line by line to identify every area of allowable expense for a player. That possibly includes things like maximizing the required paid appearances.

Here’s the original article that spawned all the blog articles.

BWAF

By Clyde

October 10, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

Roll Tide!!!

I’m sorry but Alabama is in the middle of a title run. I’ll catch up with the Hawks later. If we’re lucky Texas will beat Oklahoma Saturday and we can move into the #1 spot.

Hopefully by the All-Star break Sund will do what Alabama did two years ago. Fire Mike Shula and bring in a Nick Saban to lead the Hawks to a NBA championship.

ROLL TIDE!!!!

By MannyT

October 10, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

Game on radio. Hearing 790 the Zone feed through NBA Audio League Pass

By Ariose

October 10, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

MannyT, Kobe get’s what in six months??? say it aint so….sheesh.

So with Joe getting his 20 mill up-front. was the rest of his money spread evenly over the years or was there a year where he didn’t receive(like his 2nd or 3rd year as a Hawk) an annual salary??

As far as players getting money early, thats a lot of trust you’re putting in a player. Especially if their body begins to betray them (Nene) or they do something irresponsible (Riding Mopeds)……it’s a big risk/investment. Most recently, I beleive it was Marcus Camby that had a trade kicker in his contract so he gets a bonus. Does Denver pay that or do the Clippers?

I’m also assuming these max-plus contracts include things like opt-out clauses (somtimes referred to as yearly options) and No-Trade clauses as well?? I know Elton Brand wnted all of that from the clippers and they were like “No-Trade Clause??? Maybe for Christmas….hell naw” It seems Santa Clause didn’t like it either so Brand took his show to Philly. I wonder what THEY gave him???

I don’t even want to think about what Bron-Bron’s next contract is going to look like. Whats next Ultra-Max contracts?? How about Max-Squared lol. If Lebron gets traded he’ll probably OWN half of Cleveland and get all of the money remaining on his Contract up-front….and a 50% trade kicker to boot lol…..and his own line of NBA sponsored commercials where all of the proceeds go directly to his bank account hehehehe.

That souns like good econonomic CRAP to me lol……despite the average joe’s woes.

~SalimFan Sir Links A Lot

By Ariose

October 10, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

Is Mike Bibby not playing tonight?? Acie is starting at point and Bibby’s not even on tonights Roster. I guess flip will play some point tonight.

~Sir Links A lot

By ray

October 10, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

The Truth,

You make a pretty good point. I beg to differ on a couple things, though. And in some ways, the stats on that link don’t exactly help. One, you can’t really talk about Marvin joining any such elite group without comparing more than rebounds. And rebounds is the only category that counts that Marvin is even close to those other guys in…

Take for instance Shawn Marion. He has been somewhat on a decline, and therefore his career numbers have come down to what that article presented. Notice how they talked about his capability to put up numbers like 22 and 12. No one in their right mind will mention stats like that in the same sentence as Marvin right now…or maybe even ever. He doesn’t show the drive to get that many rebounds…or that many points. Remember, these are just averages that these guys have, meaning that there are 40 point games which balance out the 8 and 10 point games. Marvin doesn’t have those. How many 30 point games did he have last year? Fewer than Josh Smith….

Anyway, I don’t want to sound like I’m hating the guy. Besides, I got completely off topic. My original point was that people keep talking about Marvin being so big, strong, and athletic. Strength and athleticism show themselves eventually. The only thing I think is missing here is focused effort. It’s focused effort that allowed Josh Childress to post marginally superior rebounding numbers when comparing to Marvin.

Two quick facts: Marvin averaged 34.6 mpg last year with 5.3 rebounds. Childress averaged 29.9 mpg last year with 4.9 rebounds.

This tells me a couple of things. One, Marvin and Josh weren’t splitting time hardly at all, since both were playing starter’s-type minutes and there are only 48 minutes in a game. Nearly 5 minutes more per game playing just about exclusively in the two forward positions only got a bigger, stronger guy less than half a rebound more per game than a skinnier, weaker guy who also split time at the 1 and 2 positions. Something doesn’t add up here. And it ain’t the minutes.

By ray

October 10, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this

One other thing, Truth, and I don’t really mean to belabor a point…

Those elite guys are all attackers. the least of that group of killers is Shawn Marion, when it comes to offense. Marvin is not an attacker. Maybe he will be someday. Maybe not. Imagine him if he had Josh Smith’s mindset…I’m just sayin’…

By MannyT

October 10, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

new blog up

By ray

October 10, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this

This just in….we got our a*******es handed to us.

By The Truth

October 11, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Hey Ray You may be on the other blog, but I’ll leave my response here anyway since this was the origin of typic. I only responding to your question, nothing more. I’ll repeat your question for reference:

So why the pedestrian rebound numbers?

Your question was about rebounds. Yes the link I provided covered more than rebound for ranking purposes. But my focus was strictly rebounding only. Enough said.

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