Hawks

By ASG Idiots

July 29, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Sekou,

I stated in a blog a few months ago that the Spirit (or lack there of) would not retain either of the Joshs. The reason is simple…money. I can’t honestly believe that each of these highly successful business men got into the sporting industry to turn a huge profit(foolish). To make things even worse, is that we are stuck with these morons and their utter apathy to us, the fans. They do not value the opinions of you the media and us the fans. They don’t even have the professional courtesy of answering the tough questions without some line of b.s. I wish that we could somehow get these a-holes outta here. I refuse to sit back and watch “my team” be run into the ground. What can we do as fans?

By Michael

July 29, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

And what do we learn from reading this blog?

By Aaron B

July 29, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

NO SMITH = NO Playoffs. Even if they did manage to make the playoffs, who wants to watch the Hawks without Josh Smith’s dynamic defensive, and offensive abilities? Josh Smith is the future of the Hawks, what the heck are they thinking? Don’t make another Wilkins mistake…. Please I beg of you.

By smartguy

July 29, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

The Hawks have again relegated themselves to the basketball crappper. DA Gearon has a plan:

1. Hire a life-long assistant for head coach, and religiously stick with him, regardless of how bad he is (both judging by the product on the court, and the record on paper).

2. Give up a king’s ransom for a player that you could have gotten for free.

3. Pass on two of the best point guards in the league.

4. Draft the same position with top picks for four years in a row.

5. Failure to lock up key young players at fair prices for extended time.

6. Allow one of your better players (a top pick a few years ago) to bolt for Greece.

7. BS around with one of the two best players on the team, rather than showing one tenth of the sensibility that Sekou seems to have in writing this blog.

8. Tell your fans that you have a plan.

Yes, Mr. Gearon you have a plan.

It hurts me to say this, but Josh Smith: run baby run. Get the heck out of here and never look back.

By SpanishHawk

July 29, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

As you say, market has spoken. One question. Why ATL does not seek in Europe for a shoting guard and a center? There is plenty of legitimate players that can go to NBA without drafting them. As happened years ago with Oberto, Calderon and Garbajosa.

By Aaron B

July 29, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

In fact, Sekou please lets get a good Poll posted here that will ask hawks fans at whether they will be making a big mistake in not giving Smith his money. And when we get that poll’s results, shove it down Geardon n’ pal’s throats. What do you say?

By jonny

July 29, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

Sekou, this is becoming beyond ridiculous. Are the ASG not willing to pay josh smith what he wants, or do they just not have the finances to do so?? How have our top 2 rebuilding pieces, “staples” to the organization become so alienated from the organization. I mean Childress left for Greece! f’in Greece! The ASG needs to resolve the legal issues with the franchise and sell it to someone who cares, knows what they are doing and has the finances to compete in the NBA. Maybe they could buy the dream?? nah, they would mess that up too.

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

Sekou,

You know its funny, I havent seen the people that wanted us to wait for the market to set before signing the Joshes, on this blog since the whole Greece thing. Wonder where they went?

Its like your boss coming to you for your annual raise and telling you they wont give you one until you go out and find a better offer! Thats disrespectful and lazy on thier part.

By gutz

July 29, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Hawks area a JOKE! I’m done with this team if we don’t resign Smith. F*** Done!

By khao$

July 29, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

I agree! Sekou, can we get a poll?

By some sense

July 29, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Very well that Kwame Brown won’t be a Hawk. He, like Josh Smith, is an athlete, not a player. Richard Jefferson, Kenyon Martin, and Emeka Okafor are all better than Josh Smith. Just because they make 10 mil. a year does not mean that Josh should.

Sekou, you are great, but I beg to differ w/ you on the value of either Josh. Neither is worth what one was and the other is tryin’ to hold up the club.

Wish you and others would lighten up on little Mike; he’s a guy who, like his father, has the strength of his convictions and is unwilling to let emotion overrule his head on the Josh matters.

But,as I’ve written before, it’s time for Mike, Rick, whoever to move on this thing. Show how “The Plan” is going to be implemented.

btw - I’m a Woodson fan also…another guy who has the strength of his convictions. Screw the guys who don’t wish to accept his demands.

By khao$

July 29, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

Let’s face it, the Hawks are broke. Their money is tied up in litigation. Remember, Belkin still owns 30% of this teams. So their money is tied up in a bunch of directions. The biggest losers in this situation are the fans. Smith will get his money (maybe not here), Chillz got his money, the ASG still will be a bunch of rich clueless guys trying to run a basketball team, Sund will continue to be a puppet, and Woody will lose a bunch of games and get paid for it. Yet, we’ll still continue to be subjected to the ASG’s baffonery

By Left knee hurts

July 29, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

I’m getting too old to play this game. My left knee hurts after a pickup game last night. The only thing I have left now is to pull for my Hawks. I want to think they have a chance to succeed. They need the horses to do that. Look at the Braves - they are mailing it in this week. We need to settle Josh’s future so we can move forward. Sign him or sign/trade him for a true 5. Let’s go.

By DIRTY PUPPET

July 29, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

This just flat out sucks.

The plan for this offseason was a boring, but simple one. Sign the Joshs’s, sure up the frontline, shooting and general bench depth…..

The thought of Smith playing elswhere just shouldn’t have entered into the equasion.

Unless Smith is demanding somthing around 15 upwards a year, I just can’t comprehend how this deal is so far from being done.

I know the ASG have a history of incompetence, but how can it be so consistently, horrible like this? Losing a hometown product like this. It’s just plain sad and hard to be a fan of the Hawks.

ARGGGGGH!

• dirty puppet

By Peter

July 29, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

This organization has proved what everyone has speculated about them to be so true. They don’t know what they are doing. They cannot evaluate players and players still do not want to play here….Theirs included!!!!!!!!!!!!

They just suck right now and Billy Knight jumped ship at the right time because he knew they would drag their another summer.

Terrible!!!!!

By Peter

July 29, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

This organization has proved what everyone has speculated about them to be so true. They don’t know what they are doing. They cannot evaluate players and players still do not want to play here….Theirs included!!!!!!!!!!!!

They just suck right now and Billy Knight jumped ship at the right time because he knew they would drag their feet another summer.

Terrible!!!!!

By khao$

July 29, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

some sense, so the market dictates that Bogut, Biendrens, Ellis, and Okafur (all of which have similar or lesser stats than Smith) are worth the money, but Smith isn’t? There is no logic in your argument. Break out the numbers. You can’t substatiate your argument. Yes, Smith is worth the money, the market says so. The “PLAN” is to run the team on the cheap.

By Aaron B

July 29, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

Anyone who doesn’t think that Josh Smith is worth paying money to stay here is retarded. Sorry to those who hate that kind of terminology being thrown about, but come on. Josh Smith restored my faith in being able to cheer for a home town player for once. Never since Dominique did I feel like I had someone exciting to watch that our franchise birthed. He is a rare player… period. There isn’t another player like him in the whole league.

By Kevin Willis

July 29, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

Sekou you are the man! Thanks for all the updates. Does the ASG realize that they have alienated themselves in this town? I’m being serious, can you ask one of them this question Sekou? They sign Evans to replace Chills? LOL Chills was no HOFer but EVANS? Cmon, he is the definition of “journey man. Are we supposed to be excited by this? It’s very, very sad. I think we all know now that there is no way that Josh Smith will be in a Hawks uniform this year. If he is (via the one year tender, thus making him a ufa next season) my guess is he plays very, very carefully to avoid injury and make the big payday next year, can you say LAKERS. I hate to be negative, I really do, but between the Hawks and Thrashers I’m SICK to my stomach. The ASG is runnign these franchises into the ground. I hate it.

By Peter

July 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Also can we truly blame Woodson for the losses? Look at the lineups he was dealt in the past all deftly flawwed with cast-off, sub par, over the hill players and young players. And no true point guard in most situations!!!!!!!!!!!

By Nahjay Davnpooh

July 29, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

“And my personal favorite, “nobody has given a big money restricted free agent an offer sheet to sign so that means there is no market for their services.”

Well, you are welcome to keep sippin’ that syrup.

I think most of us know better.” -sekou smith

i’m assuming you’re taking yet another not-so-subtle jab at the hawks front office for not throwing a bunch of money at two guys named josh. if you think the hawks should have locked up chills for what he was “axing” for, then you’re more than welcome to “keep sipping that syrup.”

josh smith might belong in the salary range of biedrins, okafor and ellis, but something tells me smith and his agent think he’s a paycut above them and should earn 12-15 mill per. if i’m the hawks, i let him walk if that’s the case.

in the meantime, you’ll continue to corrupt the hawks fans into thinking ownership is stingy.

it’s smart to let chills go to some foreign country, he looks like he’s from another world anyway.

and it’s smart to give smith a qualifying offer and let him walk next year.

we don’t need those clowns.

By travis

July 29, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

smartguy don’t forget overpayin’ for speedy claxton, and giving up a 2nd round pick to bring in aj

then blowing everybody’s mind by announcing that you were drafting sheldon williams, only to trade him away a year and a half later.

oh, yeah and you bring bibby in at 14 mil all because you passed on cp3 and deron williams.

i’m not goin’ to mention marvin williams as the #2pick when he wasn’t even a starter a north carolina.

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

Some sense, are you just trying to play devils advocate? You cant be serious. You mention three players who make over $10 mil (by the way, Smith is much better than Kmart and Oak), what about the other 25 or so players? Whats your point to bring up three players out of at least 20 players that make $10 or more?

Also, what has Woody done that you still have faith in him? What demands did he have that no one would follow?

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Josh Smith will be gone. Cheap Atlanta Spirit Group stabs us in the hearts again. What is up with Rick Sund? I though he was supposed to be the guy to turn this around? And then they hire Woodson back (Strike 1), they let Chills walk (Strike 2), and they will let Smith walk (Strike 3 already). And Sund hasn’t even been here for 3 months yet. This is getting ridiculous. Market price has been set. Now pony up the damn money! My season tickets will not be renewed if Smith isn’t on the roster. I can’t pay for a mediocre team that looks like a summer league roster. And one more thing…Marvin the Duck is friggin horrible

By Hawksville Resident

July 29, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

I love Josh Smith, but at this point I’m not attached to him. If we can get some good pieces back in a sign and trade, I say do it. It would make our team better. And at the end of the day, with or without Josh, all that matters is wins and losses. And unlike some, I like how Rick Sund is handling the summer. I say that because there are too many options on the table for Josh. I’ve read about possibilities with Detroit, Dallas, and even Sacramento. So I would not rush anything. Get the best offer for the team. Hawks fans, regardless of what anyone says, we are in the power position. And unlike the pass, we don’t have to sit aon pins and needles and wait for Billy to screw it up. Let Rick Sund have a chance. He’s already made a good move to land Mo Evans for cheap. The Childress thing was just Childress making a good business decision for himself and could of happened to anyone. I just believe that this whole thing is going to work itself out and the Hawks will be better team for it. Watch and see.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 29, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Aaron B, I’ll speak to the Big Man running things (we can just call him Leo) and see if he can’t whip up a poll for your viewing pleasure.

And for the record, I’m not here to make villains out of anyone in particular. History will determine who was right and who was wrong.

I’ve never questioned the Atlanta Spirits’ commitment to trying to do what they think is best to put a winning team on the floor, only their methods (which is fair for any of us to do).

some sense, we can agree to disagree.

One more thing to keep an eye on today is the sentence Tim Donaghy gets in New York. I’m curious to see what kind of hammer is dropped on his dome for his criminal activity.

By edgar

July 29, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

ASG/Woody are the laughing stocks of professional sports

What has the ASG done this summer… let’s follow the progress:

1. Retained a horrible coach with a half a** extension instead of shelling out some money for a real coach (i.e. Avery Johnson)

2. Hired a bargain basement washed up GM to “make resigning the Joshes a top priority.”

3. Tossed the entire “rebuilding” effort to the wind by allowing a former top pick to walk off to Greece. (we endured a 13 win season and supported these guys because we were supposed to actually get some where down the road)

4. Botched the Smith signing

5. Signed a washed up bargain basement journeyman to replace on of the most exciting young bench players in the NBA

what is next?
Get the paper bags ready. I ain’t going to Philips this year without a paper bag that says “ASG” on my head.
(I’ll be the guy in an Olympiacos jersey)

By #21=Top 50,1stBallot

July 29, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

Sekou,

Is there any feeling that part of the hesitation (to put it kindly) to resign Smoov is the pending RFA for Duck in two seasons? It seems pretty clear that they want to make room for Al at the four, which leaves two people likely to garner a pretty penny for the 3; two people who happen to be the same age. The merits between the two players have been debated countess times but a decision between the two will have to be made at some point and it would seem to me that it might be now. Off base? Premature? Do you see this as a part of Sund making over the roster to his own liking? Better yet, do you see this as the best way for the squad to ….

RISE UP

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Losing Smith is definitely not in the right direction of Putting a winning team on the floor. Losing Chills was not as bad as people make it seem. He’snot worth 7+ mil a yr. Smith is worth 12 million a yr. I think his agents are looking for 13/yr with a 6 or 5 yr deal. Anything over 12 is over paying him. But we can’t lose him without any compensation. Thats too damaging. Najeh…i understand completely and agree with your logic, but drafting these guys and then osing them without anything in return is not the answer

By Mookie Blaylock

July 29, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

I wrote a letter to Ted Turner, begging him to buy back the team. I’m not even kidding. Mailed it yesterday to the address on his website.

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

They have to be not wanting to sign Smith to sign the Duck. He’s the worse. Ol Awkward looking boy. But one thing ppl dont see is Marvin’s QO for next yr is going to be around 7 mil. And he’s going to be looking for a $10 mil/yr deal as well

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

The ASG wanted its RFAs to go out and find market value. It is clear that the NBA market has set a value range for the better RFAs of this class. It is time for them to fish or cut bait with Smith

For all you folks who incorrectly see these contracts as unreasonable, here are 2 perspectives.

ONE-In real life right now, gas prices have skyrocketed. While you might not think gas is worth $1/gal (33%) more this year than last, you can ride a bike, walk, take MARTA, buy a motorcycle, or work from home. If these don’t fit your needs, you come up with your own unique solution or follow the masses and suck it up and cut somewhere else to pay for the gas you need.

TWO-From a basketball perspective, the cost of players is going up. That should not be a surprise. That is how the salary cap works. Many teams understand that and are making moves to lock up quality players under longer contracts so you don’t have to pay the current contract premium too often. The Kings & Timberwolves got it done early. The Warriors (2x) and Bobcats are done. The Bucks, Jazz & Hornets got it done early for next season. The market is set.

Finally, while you might be concerned about paying Smith 12 mil next season, check the real numbers. A contract like Monta Ellis’s (6 yr/67 mil) starts at 9 mil with annual raises that according to the collective bargaining agreement are no more than 10.5%. If you were willing to give him 9 mil a year, let’s go. The rest are the raises that are standard in his industry.

Unless there is a clear plan to replace Smith with a player of similar talent, why business plan to get worse. Flushing the momentum of the playoffs into the toilet is bad business even in sports.

Let’s get it done. No time to be SUPPLE (Sund’s Undercover Passivity Populates Lower Expectations).

While it may not be Sund’s fault, we can roll out the new, more worldy acronympho just for the ASG.

Ownership Lowering Expectations, yup OLE

By Cedric

July 29, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

Jonny you are so right on man. I mean I work down here and it is sad we supposedly said these 2 guys were our rebuilding pieces w/JJ and look how we treat them. I mean you know come time for other players to resign it will not happen. All around the Club Level and the Suites Level they have pictures of these guys when they were drafted, when Josh Smith won the dunk contest and other pics and now to think they will be in another uniform a fews years later is just plain sad. The ASG need to be ashamed of themselves after what those players worked so hard for down the stretch last year to make the playoffs. It will be hard to cheer for this franchise any longer. It should be a rule to not allow multiple entities the chance to run (or in this case RUIN) a franchise in any sport. They never have the right makeup of a true leader or leaders. But anyway I might as well wait till football season. Oh wait it is a game this Sunday on YES.

By DIRTY PUPPET

July 29, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Sekou, what number do you think Josh is asking for?

What number do you think the ASG will top out at?

By Peter

July 29, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Smith is the cornerstone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

SeKou, Three questions.

1) Do you think Josh would sign for what Oak got? 6 years for $72 seems like a good price for him. 2) WHat do you think about the idea that, even though Josh may not(i think he is, but for others that dont) be worth $12 now, by the time hes 26,27, and 28, it will be a bargin? 3)Do Gms take that into consideration? Think about it for a second. Josh has oimproved every year and hes only 22, theres no reason to think he wont continue to improve him game.

By jts in dallas

July 29, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

I think you are right about J Smoove moving along. I think that retaining Woody was big in Chills’ decision to market himself overseas in the first place. Seems that the only player who wants to play for Woody is Joe Johnson since he gets to do exactly what he wants.

By T.C

July 29, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Some sense commenter,thats just the mans oppinion speaking of j.smith.we got to remember,it takes time for most players to florish in this league.correct me if im wrong but j.smith became a nba product at the age of 18.this game is blessed with only a few to come right into the nba and be a force.maybe people who are against j.smith getting paid is just looking at the money and not the future of this kids upside.some sense commenter,i know thats your oppinion and i respect it but most players are given large contracts because organizations sometimes see what we don’t see.even some fans see that too.the nba is a money making industry and by some of the eye popping contracts that were signed,who’s to say that j.smith don’t deserve top dollars? if he didn’t then i don’t think it would’ve been a topic of discussion to begin with.i would say sign him now or regret it later.

By doc

July 29, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

BASG knew when it set its course to play the game the way they did that utimately they were going to have to pay the piper if they wanted to dance. or did they? why did they think otherwise? no clue, broke, contentious and contrarian thinking they can do it the way no one else can? too many questions and too few answers. irony is though i have been called a hater for being rational and continue to call it for what it is for the last three years not seeing my passion for havingi t done right, without it being done the isiah route of throwing money to all. never suggested it but knew there was a market that would have to be yielded to.

on the other hand, most responses for the franchise management are only buoyed by the true haters of smith, beyond reason, as though it were envy or something else even more frightening and chills because of his fro. then there are others that take the stance that no matter what the organization does to destroy the franchise and any goodwill it had fostered with its brief foray into the playoffs, they will support it. now who is playing the fiddle as the franchise burns in front of its face?

brown, will do well with the pistons and dumars, a perfect fit. it only reinforces what so many of us know and suggest that to get a guy to come here you need to pay more. would you if given the chance come here for the same amount of money or go to detroit? yup we have to pay 5 mil when other teams feel it takes only 4 mil a year. as stupid as the owners and folks think many are here at the blog, what have so many said brown would be worth and should be offered as a start? check back, about 4 mil i think. it stays that way until we build a champion then the situation changes. our ownership either doesnt realize it, want it or cant afford it.

it never was about billy knight as i said over the years. his stepping aside give us full view front on fully exposed what it is…. the emperor that as no clothes. put your clothes on guys, humble yourselves if you havent been humbled enough already and sign the kid and move on pulling some semblance of order of this summer. make my day and do what i said you couldnt and wouldnt do this summer and to get it right. your sales force would appreciate it, the players would appreciate it and the fans would fall over themselves helping you get it done.

jhan respect is important to anyone nba included. it is what is most important and in this league after showing you can play. yes, it is about getting the money to show you are respected as it is out there visibly for everyone to see and know, a lot different than us mortals. maybe that is what ray was referring to. funny it is sund rule number two and an observation when he came in and talked about it on 680.

By Peter

July 29, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Francisco Elson would be a good pick up for the Hawks

By Peter

July 29, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

Here is what they can do to salvage this off season.

Jannero Pargo Ben Gordon Francisco Elson Salim Stoudamire? Jeremy Richardson Othella Hunter DJ Mbenga? Juan Dixon?

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Oh boy, here we go again.

Sekou

Thanks for the update. Your opinions were spot on, as usual.

Can you tell us if the ASG has made any offer other than the 5/45M last fall?

I realize that even if you knew about the negotiations, that you couldn’t (and wouldn’t / shouldn’t) tell the numbers. But are they negotiating at all? Or is it just a silly stare-down?

By Astro Joe

July 29, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

It will be interesting to see the composition of some of these recently signed deals. Any ETOs? How much is guaranteed? Any team options in later years?

I have no problems that the Hawks started at $9M annuallly for Smith last summer. There were no reports that Smith’s agents countered the offer and no indications that BK called the $9M his final offer. I personally doubt that any of these RFAs started with the same offer where they landed. It’s a negotiation. Also, Smith showed a fair amount of immaturity during the ‘06-07 season. Sekou quoted Woody as saying that he would consider benching Smith for a lack of effort, only to have Smith go out immediately with a reported hernia problem (the very next day). We had the middle-finger incident during that same season followed by the yelling episode with Woody that resulted in a suspension. (If yelling at an incompetent boss were acceptable, most of us would spend more time shouting in our work place and less time blogging). So all in all, I don’t view last summer’s $9M annually as insulting.

But that was then and this is now. I still vote for no more than $12M guaranteed annually. Throw some team-based incentives regarding playoff appearances, top 4 playoff seeding and bonuses tied to advancing through the playoffs. But get it done.

And if that doesn’t work, a S&T with Pistons that brings back Billups, Amir, Kwame & Maxiell for Bibby, Smith & Solo would work for me. A bench featuring Law, Evans, Amir, Maxiell and Zaza would provide tremendous depth behind starters Billups, JJ, Marvin, Horford & Kwame.

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Peter…keep dreaming. Othello Hunter, Mbenga, Juan Dixon..HA! And Gordan and Deng are both looking for money like last summer. Deng around 11.5 mil/yr and gordan around 10-11/yr. Gordan has no spot on this team. Undersized. And Deng is looking for same money as Smith altho Deng is a legit SF and could move marvin to PF full time. No happening. Pargo? Undersized and just another PG we don’t need. He’s 6’1 buddy

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Amen Doc…..

By A.S.

July 29, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

The offers I am hearing are:

DET: Tayshaun, Maxielle

DAL: J-Howard, Bass

SAC: Artest, B. Miller

LAL: Odom, another player

I think trading Josh Smith is going to be a huge mistake, but if he does not want to come back to ATL get some value from him.

By doc

July 29, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

to paraphrase sund:

he feels players go through growth stages as the come into the league.

1. i belong
2. i can play with individual honors (all star, start, significant contributor, role player, bench warmer for minutes of play only, wear a jacket behind the bench) …… any of us would take any of those options.
3. i get my money at the level of contribution
4. get the rings or get darn close.

i think sund gets i and knows where these guys fall. it is very clear to all of us. now who doesnt get it?

By Dan

July 29, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

KWAME IS gone? Just Great? OK they said main priority was to keep the 2 Josh’s ? Now we are losing both Josh,s? Then they said they had to add a few key pieces? What key piece? Hey thanks for the brief excitement while it lasted. Thanks for the empty promises? Thanks for giving me other choices instead of watch the high flying slam dunking oops sorry change that slogan to 3rd tier scrub team, cheap ownership. Hey look at it this way we can rebuild again thru the draft pick high but then they cycle continues when they become restricted free agents we can let them go. We can be the developmental team for other teams to make it to the NBA championship.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

doc

I think you already have a pretty good idea who the fiddler is. Nice post.

And about our alchemist…. does he know that any results we could “logically” get from a sign and trade likely are only “fools gold”?

Or, as I said before, just gold plating, pretty at first, but oh so easily tarnished.

MannyT

Excellent again.

OLE! Touche’.

By A Thinking Fan

July 29, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

BASG u can’t run a professional sports team being BROKE! Support SS by blogging, but BROKE is BROKE and it don’t work here…

By Joshua

July 29, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

Journeymen like Evans win chapionships , Look at PJ Brown and James Posey without them the Hawks would have upset the Celtics .The Hawks now need to sign Devin Brown and Randolph Morris and solidify there bench with the proper role players . Also I’d like to see Smith back but if you sign and trade him do it to the Clippers for Chris Kaman , They have Camby as a center right and Smith could play off him creating one hell of a block party , While Kaman could start next to Horford allowing him to become the double double power forward he really is ,

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

I could care less what it takes the BASG to resign Smith. I just want it done.

Why should I care how much it cost them. The BASG said they were going to resign him and let the market set the price for him and now the market has spoken. For those who think 10-12 mil is too much, when was the last time you seen someone wear an Emeka Okafor, Kevin Martin, Andrew Bogut, Monta Ellis or Andris Biedrins Jersey? Those guys are good players but are nowhere near the revenue generator as Josh Smith. One must consider these factors when negotiating a players contract.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

Just imagine if we were trying to re-sign Smoove and offer Paul or Williams an extension in the same year. lol!! What’s that about 30 mill? And not to mention, JJ would be up for an ext. next year. Talking about problems. lol!!

By jason

July 29, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

doc you need to work on punctuation and making coherent thoughts.

i can not follow anything you write. are you using a 1960 typewriter?

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Sekou, it’s pretty damn obvious that either we DONT want Smith, or he DOES’NT want to be here. My gut feeling tells me that were looking for the best possible sign-and trade offers. No way they let him go next year for nothing, which WILL HAPPEN, if he signs a 1 year deal. And what’s up with Maurice Evans? Has he signed on the dotted lines, or is this one of those Parcells/Falcons deals?

By Kevin

July 29, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this

If the hawks could trade for Artest and Brad Miller , you make the trade now - it fixes all of your issues and neither of them are ancient. They also already have history with Bibby which means less adjustment period. This does actually work numbers wise if you throw in speedy going the other way, and Sac town needs point guard depth. In my opinion that is a better team than last year by far.

Pg- Bibby / Law Sg - JJ / Evans / Gardner SF - Artest / Marvin / J-rich Pf - Horford / MLE guy / Othello Hunter C - Miller / Zaza / Morris

By doc

July 29, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

melvin cool, cp keep it coming. atf nothing but respect, sautee yup.

aj, fess up and be done with it, quit trying to rationalize it. you seriously missed it on josh and i dont think anyone gets a hernia repair which he did because someone threatened him with a benching.having been a surgeon and truly knowing what it takes to recover, instead of being out 6 weeks which is customary he was back in full force in two weeks during a season that was lost because of an injury to several others. he gave it his all and dont misrepresent it because you failed to see his worth and have finally opened your eyes. get over it, you started the mea culpa out right then lost me and everyone else here with the hernia spin. ;-))

as our announcer said during that wonderful game in the playoffs josh stted up in college park before he threw it down over KG. huge talent period.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

OLE!

Astro Joe

I don’t think Dumars is gonna let Maxiell go. I read early on that he considered Stuckey and Maxiell as untouchable. But you never know. And also can Detroit turn around and trade Kwame?

I’ll say this: If the Hawks could get as much as that (your trade proposal) for Smoove, Bibby and Solo, they should jump on it. And quickly. Of course, I’d think that Dumars had lost his mind. My guess would be that Detroit would offer that without Maxiell included.

But, if he is included, that would be a pretty decent big man rotation with Horford, Kwame, Maxiell, Amir, and Zaza. It’s been years since we had that many decent bigs.

But that’s the kind of value the Hawks must look for in a S&T. Anything less, and they won’t recover from the PR hit they’ll take from losing Smoove.

By bandwagon driver

July 29, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

KNIGHT and toDAY. I believe players express their dissatisfaction with Woody’s coaching style after the allstar break. Thus, Billy tried to pull the trigger but the ownership wanted to allow the to crash and burn together. Behold the make the playoffs and BEHIND THE ENERGY OF FANS

By Ken Strickland

July 29, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

SOME SENSE-you’ve obviously neglected to do you homework. JSmiths’ overall performance and statistics surpass the 3 players you’ve mentioned in almost every category except PPG (Jefferson 22.6) and RPG (Okafor 10.7). He’s the 2nd leading scorer and rebounder of the group, and he’s 1st in BPG, APG and STL’s.

EXACTLY HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM LESS OF A PLAYER THAN THE OTHER 3? EXACTLY WHAT IS YOUR CRITERIA FOR REACHING YOUR CONCLUSION? LAST, BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST, HOW MANY OF THE 4, BESIDES JSMITH, DO YOU THINK WILL SHOW ANY APPRECIABLE IMPROVEMENT OVER THE NEXT FEW YRS?

By I.MUS WRITE

July 29, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

Rick Sund sure looks like a sock puppet right now… Right after the playoffs signing the Joshes were our top priority: FFWD 2 months and Afro is in Greece and Smoove is still being low balled. I could see if he was asking for 15 a year,but 12 come on-pay the guy already….or can we?

I just want sum one to stand up and say hey we dont have the money, compared to other owners in the league we’re broke as hell. That way we can put all the speculation to rest and stop looking for the next hot FA to sign with us.

JJ, Horford and other FA’s have to be looking at this and asking themselves is this how Im gonna be handled when its my time to reup…..real black eye for the organization. I cant be mad if Josh signs the QO and bolts on us next summer. Go get your muney yung fella …If Baens, Okafur and Eliis are worth 12 then Smith is worth the same or more…..

Scared money doesnt make money…. you have got to be proactive and not reactive. Reactive -we sign Evans only after Chills has bounced. We needed a Goon in the middle for the heavy lifting…..bring in Kwame for a workout and then figured we could low ball him as well… So we play the waiting game. Because we didnt move to sign a guy we really needed he is snatched up by a classy organization and were left holding the bag again.

Reactive-We now sign Randolph since we cant get Kwame for 2.5 million Itz hard being a fan of any Sports teams in this city…….

I guess i better start checking on the NBA package so i can start watching the yung Blazers go to work. Also to watch Josh block shot and dunk on people where eva he’s going to be playing.

AS- these S&T ideas are okay I think the one I would jump on is the Artest/Miller combo. Im gonna go out on a limb- insert those guys with JJ Horford and Bibbs and we will be in the ECF next season

Bibbz/JJ/Artest/Horford/Miller

Acie/Marvin/ZAZA/Evans off the bench

By Mike

July 29, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Sekou:

What’s the latest on Speedy? He was supposed to be playing Summer League to test the knee, but I think he only played the first two games. I never heard if that was bad news or what. Any word?

Thanks.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith will be signed. My guts changed their mind. lol!!

By Aaron B

July 29, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

TY again Sekou. I went to lunch and came back and now there are too many comments for me to read…lol I hope we can show them that poll!

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Kevin Willis, it looks like your boy Chills will also be known as a “JOURNEYMAN.” What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

By Lacsho

July 29, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Ken you are preaching to the choir. If one does not believe smoove is worth 12 million a year, you must be a smoove hater. Bottom line this guy can flat out play, and he’s only 22 yrs old.

Doc I agree with you. Either you sign Smith ( Which the majority believes is the right thing to do), or you complete the SnT. It’s not hard to figure this thing out. I’m not confident they will get equal value with a SnT, but hey that’s my opinion.

If the BASG didn’t want to commit to building a championship team, they shoul’ve never bought the team in the first place. Championship teams spend Championship money. Cheap teams might go to the playoffs, but they remain in the lottery.

Whatz Good Ray

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

OLE!

Ken

Don’t waste your time, some sense is likely an ASG intern, sent out to try and spin the worst case against Josh that he can. We all know that his post was b.s., but I’ll have to admit I was tempted to answer just as you did.

So thanks, for the rest of us, but I don’t think you’ll be starting an intelligent dialogue with this particular poster.

By Mychelfromatl

July 29, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

Now this is really getting embarassing. Im fed up with all ATLANTA teams. A word to the wise…Atlanta Sprit Group, take note on why the Falcons cant give away a ticket this year LOSE JOSH NO ONE WILL SHOW UP AT GAMES THIS YEAR

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

Astro, Dumars already said that everyone on the Pistons roster could be traded, except STUCKEY and MAXIEL.

By Ticket Buyer Guy

July 29, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

It appears that the Atlanta Spirit Group takes issue in spending big money on even average talent (see J. Childress). So why not look into acquiring cheaper talent and coach them up? It’s not like the Hawks have a 12 man roster set for the 2009 season. For example, Darian Townes (Sacramento) and C.J. Giles (Toronto). Both players are in their respective summer leagues and did pretty well in them. I don’t know for sure if they have guaranted contracts but both players fill an obvious need for this team (big men that have some form of low post offense). Plus since no big time talent is volunteering to come here, then why not this route? At least here they can be promised real playing time.

By doc

July 29, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

JASON, been around here for three years and some have been able to do it though my poor man’s e. e. cummings is a challenge. i feel for you and wish i could make it better. it is the best i can muster. sorry you cant read it but it is just as well since i doubt we would share too many common ideas. just a hunch.

By HHoops

July 29, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Think about this

If the Hawks needed a 3-4 player and Smooth was available on another team as a 22 year old budding star, we would see it as a major upgrade to trade for him just like we did for JJ. Well, that’s the way I see this situation right now. As it stands right now we don’t have Smooth on the Hawks team. We do need a 3-4 player that can start and cause match up problems for our opponents. I also understand that we have other needs, but unless we can make a trade that will fill two or more of these needs (a 3-4 player that can start, a 5 that can start, a outside scorer), the ASG need to change their attitude with Smooth and sign him for 6X12 M. Feelings have been hurt, but that can be fixed. It happens in real life every day.

By doc

July 29, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

i.mus you going to call us the sac east?

By DJM

July 29, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

The Poll is up. Thanks SS!

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith for Artest and Miller? I like that proposal. I dont know if that would would work financially though? Manny? We could always throw in Speedy and Zaza. They could use a backup pg, and big man to play behind Udrih and Hawes.

By doc

July 29, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

ticket buyer guy, are you suggesting changing coaches? that suggestion was already made by many. some suggest we have a coach who says if you cant play it is your fault and not mine for not being able to coach you up. what do you really mean as the one we have has been doing just that and we have seen only limited progress with a few possible missing pieces from last years roster.

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

hate to keep repeatin’ myself but…when people don’t like who they work they leave…PERIOD!!!

for all or ANY of the reasons that have brought things to this point with both JOSHes, it shows that this organization does NOT know how to get it done. the stupid a$$ BASG is NFFNBAO (not fit for nba ownership)…PERIOD!!! (can’t quite do it like you MannyT) but you get what i’m sayin’!!! and it IS embarrasin’!!!

the re-signin’ of WOODSON says ALL that needs to be said about the VISION that this franchise has!!! and i truly believe we are NOW seein’ the impact of WOODSON and just how much some/most players would rather be somewhere else than to play for him. i mean look at the coachin’ staff!!! who??? what??? i mean who are these cats??? and i think LDREW is still around ONLY ‘cause he smells blood!!!! and he smells blood at the wink from SUND!!!

the stupid a$$ BASG can only be thankful for one thing right now. and that is they DO NOT have to think about HORFORD for the next 3 yrs. and guess who we thank for that one??? yep i/you said it…BK!!! BRAINLESS…USELESS…CLUELESS…PERIOD!!!

(i feel a self-imposed exile comin’ on again…RIDICULOUS!!! and the reason doesNOT even matter anymore…just RIDICULOUS and EMBARRASIN’…PERIOD!!!!)

By nicky b

July 29, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

AL WANTS IN, JOSH WANTS OUT! LET’S MAKE BASG GET THIS TOO HAPPEN! SEKOU, LET’S GET A POLL GOING ABOUT WHO WE AS FANS WOULD RATHER HAVE, HARRINGTON OR JOSH!

By Realist

July 29, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

Sekou, Once again you have shown you have no concept of “market value.” Let’s try this again, with a different analogy:

Say McDonald’s opens a restaurant across the street from The Capital Grille. They look up and The Capital Grille is charging $45 for a NY Strip… so they figure they can charge $45 for their Big Mac. After all, that’s the “market value” of a nice piece of meat in that neighborhood. Well, sure enough, no one wants to pay $45 for a Big Mac… because the market value of a Big Mac is $3, not $45!

Market value = what someone is willing to pay for a good or service. If Emeka Okafor signs for $72M, then $72M is the market value of EMEKA OKAFOR, not JOSH SMITH. Josh Smith is worth whatever someone is willing to pay him.

Look, Sekou, we all understand that other teams are handicapped in their ability to sign Smith, because of the cap. But that is precisely part of the equation. The only people who want to pretend that Smith is worth more than what the market is willing—and able—to pay him are Smith, his agents, and apparently, you.

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

SUND has reduced his outlook, to some degree, to this team as a 37 win team. ok i can get part of that. but i wonder just how much tape this cat has watched???!!! ‘cause SURELY he knows he can pin a number of loses on the fact this head coach makes NO adjustments, has NO playbook, and flat out has NO creativity!!! surely he’s seen that??!!! i mean, he has to have seen that right???

(yeah i know, short exile)LOL

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Hawks supposedly have an offer on the table for Smith.http://webblogs.newsday.com

By #21=Top 50,1stBallot

July 29, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

Realist,

Apparently the BASG themselves w/ Sund henceforth know as SPS (Sock Puppet Sund)seem to be inflating Smoov’s value. As has been “reported” there are a multitude of suitors for Smoov’s services, but the asking price (re: market value) is too high so they have balked. I believe BASG knows how much Smoov is worth and how good he is, but are trying to find a way to eschew him from the roster as a part of a greater “plan” (at least I hope they have one, not that I’m in any way in favor of letting Smoov go….AT ALL). This was all so avoidable. SPS knows what Smoov is worth and they had to expect with his continued improvement his market price and worth would justifiably…

RISE UP

By Anonymous

July 29, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

that link is broken

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 29, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

ando and ray - thanks for the kind words yesterday.

let us not overreact on not signing kwame brown. this is the time of year where “potential” often times gets paid more than performance. while brown would have been an upgrade over the hawks current back-up centers, his impact on the court next season can be replicated by other players. (assuming they are signed/acquired.)

but be honest with yourselves, how many of you went into this off season thinking, “if we can sign kwame brown, we’ll be set at the center position”? again, i’m not saying he wouldn’t be an upgrade, but he also wouldn’t be a starter for 90% of other nba teams.

some of you might be thinking, wouldn’t the hawks be paying for potential with josh smith, and following the above logic, then isn’t ownership correct to follow the same logic?

no.

josh smith has performed - and put to numbers that are reflective of his impact on the team. he isn’t an all-star, put he’d also start for 90% of other teams in the nba.

is he worth more in today’s dollars that a superstar, all-star player? of course not. but contracts are based on today’s worth. in five years, a $11mil/yr salary will probably be seen in a similar way to a $8mil/yr salary today. that’s a reasonable salary for his level of performance and impact.

smith is an investment. he is an asset. (i won’t even go into his value from a marketing perspective.) and as i’ve mentioned before, this as much about assets and liability as anything else.

as a 22 y/o player on a 5 yr contract, smith would still be an asset if his performance levels off.

ask yourself, if josh smith was a 27 y/o unrestricted free agent, whose numbers were identical to what they were last season, what would he be worth to your team? would he be worth $11mil/yr?

compare him against someone like lamar odom and you’ll see a salary that the above salary compares favorably to a performance that is similar.

unless the ownership has severe cash-flow issues, that are leading them to try to get $0.50 on the dollar of smith’s worth, while obtaining similar asset value, waiting to re-sign smith seems to hold little additional value, now that the signing of many of his unrestricted peers has set the market price.

the point to this rambling post is, unless hawks ownership feels it can acquire assets that supersede that of smith, waiting this process out any long, in the hops of saving $5-$8mil over the course of 5/6 years seems like a foolish, fallacy of logic.

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Nice try REALIST, but that analogy doesnt work. Do you think McDonalds made it big because they waited for other burger joints to make their decisions? NO! They went out and were inventive, they were the ones that priced their Big Mac. THATS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO TELL YOU! The ASG should set the price for Smith, not another team.

Realist, I think MOST people in the NBA would tell you Smith is worth $12. Hey, maybe Sund should start calling all the other Gms and asking them what he should offer Smith.

By crs

July 29, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Whatever small step forward this franshise made in the series with Boston is GONE!! Sund is a retred. Chil had so little confidence in this franchise he left the country. Odds of a Smith deal are shrinking. How long after Smith not getting a deal does it take for Joe Johnson to demand a trade? The Hawks keep calling for me to renew season tickets, they must be kidding. Only franchise in the city in worse shape is the Braves just because the Hawks know they are a joke, the Braves are still in some delusion this is 1996. Atlanta is working hard at being LOSERVILLE!

By HHoops

July 29, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

terrell barron

That link won’t come up. What does it say?

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Pretty good comment Realist. Your turn Sekou.

By Josh R.

July 29, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

Mr. SS I read all of your articles and I love the Hawks. I don’t know how many on here are season ticket holders, but I am.

Pay Josh Smith or get value. You simply can’t let him walk. I happen to like Marvin. Mr. Woodason seems to be set with Johnson, Marvin, and Horford. I want Smith back, but would prefer a true 5. Since no one is offering a true starting 5 (I like Bass from Dallas, but he is undersized) then throw Smith the money and let’s create matchup problems.

What can I do as a season ticket holder to express my concern for the Hawks and their direction. Somebody HAS to SPEND MONEY!!!!!!!! Joe will walk if we don’t spend money on him and he is worth it. What can we do?

By hawks fan

July 29, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

Send Josh Smith and Speedy Claxton to the Mavs for Josh Howard and the needed salary filler.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

My bad. Try this http://weblogs.newsday.com

By steve

July 29, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

The Hawks are cheap, that video summed it up best. I will always be a Hawks fan at heart, but when a franchise screws you over like this I have no problem jumping on the New Orleans Hornets bandwagon. Shoot, Chris Paul should be a Hawk anyways so I feel as though I am justified.

By ricardo

July 29, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

A few questions:

If Josh Smith is not resigned, would Phillips Arena still be considered “The Highlight Factory”?

I wonder what Domonique’s take on what’s transpired with Joshes?

Why in the H*LL would they (ASG) promote season tickets and they haven’t handled their business (Josh Smith) yet?

By ricardo

July 29, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

A few questions:

If Josh Smith is not resigned, would Phillips Arena still be considered “The Highlight Factory”?

I wonder what Domonique’s take on what’s transpired with Joshes?

Why in the H*LL would they (ASG) promote season tickets and they haven’t handled their business (Josh Smith) yet?

By NDaATL

July 29, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

I just can’t understand why they’d trade expiring contracts for Bibby if they want to get cheap now?? Bibby makes 15 million next season, they didn’t have to pay him that money because everyone we traded was expiring. It really is a head scratcher how the ASG could be so dumb.

What liars, their two “primary goals” of the offseason was to resign the Joshes. Now it is likely we lose both. Hypocrites.

By RealSquawk

July 29, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Who sets market value? The team who is willing to pay. And when a team comes with a sign and trade deal with Smith saying they want him signed for 72 miliion or 60 million. well then that is his market value for this team.

Josh Smith could indeed turn into an all star and we could miss him, but from someone who has supported every Hawks and wished them the best since the rebuilding process started I must say you can only pay him for what you think he is worth.

Unfortunately for all those other players who have been signed you pretty much know what you are getting. you know what they can do and what they can’t. For Josh we are still waiting for him to come into his game and start playing basketball. you can 72 million for emeka okafor or Andrew Bogut cause you know what they are going to do for the next 5 years. In Josh Smiths case we have know idea.

He spent all summer working on his jump shot and his dribbling skills, but I saw no improvement. And i rarerly saw those post up moves that should have shown up

so yeah lets play the market the 76ers and clippers entertained him and they both choose injured and older players over Josh Smith thats got to say something

By The ASG plan is clear!

July 29, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

It begins with the trifecta. Lowest payroll in league, lowest paid GM, and lowest paid Coach.

ASG cannot afford to have the lawsuit settled. The group does not have the financial resources to payoff what would be owed to Belkin. $50,000,000 +

To maintain the trifecta strategy the Hawks will sign Josh Smith to a 1 year contract. Thus guaranteeing his depature and maintaining the lowest payroll.

By Jason

July 29, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

Bring back David McDavid

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

I give up. Any way I read this on Newsday.com(NBA Insider with Ken Berger)”There have been some reports about sign-and-trade scenarios for Hawks free agent Josh Smith. There’s simply NO MARKET for him at the moment, according to a person fimiliar with the situation. Atlanta officials have received exactly 1 phone call about Smith, and those talks are old news and did’nt last very long. The Hawks have a multi-year offer on the table for Smith that is pushing 60 mill, according to a source. Smiths camp is hoping to find something better in a sign-and-trade and may very well drag out the impasse all the way through Sep., as the agents for Ben Gordon and Luel Deng did last season. Good Luck!”

By bigeasy830

July 29, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Someone blogged earlier sign J-Smoove or trade him for value. You cannot find equal value for him. There are very few players that can do all the thing J-Smoove can do. He is a very rare talent that is going to get only better. 11 million perseason may be a steal.

By Harpie

July 29, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

No Josh Smith = no more caring about the Hawks for me…

By ASG

July 29, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

NDaATL, We brought Bibby in so we could make the Playoffs and fool you guys into thinking we were actually a top-notch organization, who would do whatever it took to win. And yall fell for it. SUCKERS!

By jcarson

July 29, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Of course Smoove is worth $12 mill per year. The kid is only 22 and he averaged 18 pts, 8 reb, and almost 3 blocks. What in the world are we waiting on?!? We won’t find anyone any better to spend that money on. This whole thing is insane.

By Halsey

July 29, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Blah Blah Blah. The Hawks either need to reach an agreement with Smith or trade him. Nobody knows if he’ll live up to a big contract, but there’s no way he gets any less than 9.5 mill per. The Hawks need to make a final decision on what they think he’s worth, offer that to him, and if he doesn’t take it, trade him for whatever they can get. Losing him would not be the end of the world. If the Hawks gave him a big contract and he didn’t live up to it, that would set the Hawks way back. They have a major decision to make and I don’t blame them for taking their time.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

60 mill is the most I would pay for Smith. I’m sorry! Lets make it 5 yr. 60 mill. If he thinks he’s worth more, lets do a sign and trade. SIMPLE.

By crs

July 29, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Its funny to hear all of these people quibble about paying Josh, do you all work for the ASG?

By HHoops

July 29, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

terrell barron

There comes a time when a negotiator starts to look real greedy. I think that Smooth’s agents may be there. If your source is accurate, the Hawks are offering 60 M and you are probably right, the contract is probably for 5 years. Come on, thats 12 M per year to play basketball! It’s time to take the money Josh and let’s get ready for the season!!!

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

A couple of rumors: Smith to Detroit for Prince and Mcdyess or Smith to NO for Peja, Julian Wright and a pick. hmmm? Thoughts?

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

terell, 5 yr/60mm is the same as 6 yr/72m in essence. if the 5 yr/60mm was on the table i would think he’d take it with some incentives. And realist, u say the same thing on here all the time on Sekou’s blogs, but what is ur solution. Would u not pay him? Thus declining ur ticket sales, PR blows from everywhere, and have only 7 players under contract? You seem like a smart guy and i’m in treasury thus i understand where u are coming from when u say market value is what someone else will pay him, but 12 million is his market value. Teams just can’t pay him, due to salry cap, but we all know what he’s valued at regardless if a team has actually offered it. U want to live in too literal terms, but that means losing a player of that caliber at his age by getting less value if not anything in return. I’d just like to hear what you would do since u say the same thing about market value on all ur post dating back to July 1st when free agency started.

By St. Bernard

July 29, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

I am ashamed to still be keeping up with all this, but if Smith brings us Tayshaun and Maxielle, Artest and Miller, or J-Howard and someone else, I’d make the deal.

If for no other reason, it would be fun to see how Artest and Woody bond! Or how Howard’s drug problem progresses in the ATL.

By Thom Kroos

July 29, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Hahaha yall should check out that video its hilarious

By roan st

July 29, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

Am I the only one who now believes that Billy Knight saw this $hit coming? He bailed even though he was offered one more season. I was a big crtitic of some of Knight’s decisions but I honestly believe the man has some pride and didn’t want to be villianized for tearing this team apart. Knight wanted to fire Woodson last year and there are rumors that he tried to trade childress last year as well. Instead we are stuck with an inept coach and got nothing for chills. Now Smith may be on his way out the door.

By Realist

July 29, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Seems to me the people on this blog fall mainly into two camps:

1. Pay Josh Smith whatever he wants. He is young, he can run and jump and dunk. And most importantly, it’s not my money so why do I care if he gets $7M per year or $12M per year? Who cares about future implications to the business or the salary cap? That’s why we have mid-level exemptions, and that’s why we buy tickets, so the ASG can spend, spend, spend on players!

2. Run the Hawks like a business. Pay your players (including Smith) only as much as you need to pay them to keep them. If you can’t afford them, or if they demand too much money, let them walk or trade them. In the long run, you’ll be able to build a competitive team because you haven’t overspent on any one or two players who don’t produce up to their contract size.

If you are in camp 1, you’re not interested in the definition of market value. All you want is Josh Smith back on the Hawks because you find him entertaining and fun to watch. You think the people in Camp 2 are just killjoys.

If you are in camp 2, the people in camp 1 look pretty stupid to you. Because you know that if they had their way, Josh Smith would break the bank and there would be no money or cap space left over to make this into a winner for the years to come.

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

The NO doesnt sound like anything i’d be interested in.Peja can shoot, but he’s aging. J. Wright is avg at best. Still way unproven. And I dont want to talk about draft picks for future guys we dont know yet. Prince and McDyess would help as well, but I would like it if Detroit threw another piece in there. But if 5 yr/60mm is what he is turning down then he has just a little reason cuz he and his agents think hes better than emeka who got 12 Mil thus he wants higher

By doc

July 29, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

roan, funny i just sent off an e-mail to one of the members of the blog saying just that.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Just heard Toronto might be in the mix. Bargnani and Kapono for Smith. Bibby, JJ, Marv, Horford, Bargnani. With Law, Evans, Kapono, Solo, and Zaza off the bench. Not bad. Not bad at all.

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Roan, I agree with you, BK probably saw it coming. He probably knew he made some mistakes and if he were to ever get a chance at another Gm position, this joke of an offseason would have killed that chance.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

Realist, your REALLY on your game today. That last post just about says it all.

By Billy Knight

July 29, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

Suckers!!

By Jim Burn is Roaming

July 29, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

the only way to get mgt’a attention is to BOYCOTT the hawks. This is the only way that fans can let mgt know that we won’t put up with this.

quit buying tickets, quit paying $10 to park, quit spending $14 bucks for a beer and hotdog.

as long as you all keep supporting this franchise, they will continue to do the things that they have done!

philly fans wouldn’t put up with this, neither would lakers ot boston fans, hence the championships to our none.

DON’T JUST BLOG ABOUT YOUR FRUSTRATIONS, BOYCOTT!!

I am a basketball fanatic, former season tix holder with hawks. not renewing until the ship is righted.

By Ramon

July 29, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Terrell, I think that 60 mil deal is for six seasons not 5.

Someone stated with Bogut and Okafor you know what you will get, but neither is more productive than Smoove. And NEITHER has a history of being as healthy as Smoove. Do you remember Smoove went down with a 4-8 weeks injury (for most people), yet was back in no time. Smoove above all the qualities that have been mentioned, is dependable.

Okafor came out of college as a shot blocking big man, yet Smoove has averaged more than he has every season. Okafor and Bogut both average 1-2 rebounds more than Smoove, while Smoove scores more, assists more, and and SELLS more. And the ‘kicker’ is Smoove is younger than both, and has shown more improvement through their short careers than either.

By Ramon

July 29, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

I will ask this question, what was the last team to make the conference finals without being OVER the cap?

By jcarson

July 29, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

What in the world are you talking about, Realist. You have to use your money, or you certainly aren’t going to win. Also, how can you think that paying $12 mill a year to a kid that is only 22 and already filling up a stat sheet is a bad move. In case you haven’t noticed…LeBron ain’t coming here. I agreed with them letting Chills go, but you have to re-sign this kid or get something comparable for him.

By travis

July 29, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

so realist, which camp are you in?

By Anonymous

July 29, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

No Jim Rome is Burning the hawks will be relocated.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Well if its 6 yrs. 60 mill, we need to up it to 6 yrs. 66 mill and make that our final offer. That’s 11 mill a year. That’s ENOUGH!

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Realist… If Smith is worth what ppl are willing to pay him, then u are saying he’s worth nothing because nobody has offered anything. Clips, GS, Phillly all offered nothing. Thus he’s worth nothing? The market will continue to rise every yr. the NBA cap goes up every year, thus what u can pay him next year wouldnt nearly be the same 5 years from now. You can’t build a winner with scrubs and one super star. Joe Johnson will be due for extension next yr and so will Big Al in a couple. Lose one of them, with the same market mentality u have realist and i just cant see a winner just because u didnt pay them. All championship teams have 2-3 stars. U have to pay up the money to keep the 3 player core. It is vital. If the core is Al, Smoove, and JJ then u pay them to keep the winning team. If its JJ, AL, and the Duck then u let smoove walk. But whose really the best 3 man combo that will win more games?

By B.A. ToDa

July 29, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

I already gave up. The Hawks and Josh Smith are Done. It’s no coming back to where we at now. Okafur just got resigned already! Sad offseason in Hawks sports.

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

Realist, now your just being ignorant. Most of the people that want him signed, including myself, think he is worth $12 a year. No one, not ONE person, has said “pay him anything, just get him back.”

Next time you post, please answer this. What do you think the other players on the Hawks, and other soon to be FAs are thinking about the ASG? If I were them, I would be thinking, “the ASG is cheap, unloyal, and all they care about is the money.”

You have no solution to this problem. All you keep saying is “pinch the penny.” Guess what, the best way to make money is to put a good team that can win out there. The Hawks wont win if they dont keep their best talent. JJ and AL wont want to resign if they have to put up with this crap.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Realist Your example of market value is not realistic!

The way restricted free agency works, the market is intentionally supressed. Okafor could not get that same offer from other teams, because they could not get him for any value that Charlotte would match. So 6yr/72 mil shows his value to the Bobcats, not to other teams.

Josh’s rumored value to the Hawks is 6yr/57 mil per offer noted by Chris Broussard of espn.com.

While you might discount his value per your opinion, as they do in real estate, we can look at comparables. Recent contracts for players with similar experience have a 10-13 mil/yr value (See Okafor, Bogut, Biedrens, Ellis, Jefferson, Martin) The bigger they are the higher the salary trends. Thus it is easy to understand why Josh asks for the upper range. I can understand the ASG pushing for lower, but when you push below the low end of the range there have to be circumstances to justify setting a new floor.

They don’t have to be public, just reasonable. If not, there is essentially no market for the player in the league due to league rules, not economic market value that allows you to go to any restaurant you want to get a meat entree.

When the place you ate your last meal gets a lead decision making factor in where/what you eat next, we can go back to the steak and big macs.

He can opt for his tender number 1yr/3.17 mil, take their deal, or force an alternative. That’s not really a market. Chills found an innovative alternative.

OLE

Folks here is that Newsday link from terrell barron

By hawkfan

July 29, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

hey, hawks fans this is from josh childress himself:

I’ll be honest with you man. They offered me a below mid-level deal, then shot down every sign and trade opportunity, then put me on hold and basically said to wait until we sign Josh Smith. So then they try to make me play the waiting game to let my opportunities dry up, and it made me mad. It also made me realize it is a business. So I had to make the business move. They were trying to bully me and do everything they could to get me for as cheap as they could and I didn’t feel like waiting on them anymore.

and this is what he thinks about the josh smith situation: I honestly think he will try to leave. I don’t know for sure, because I haven’t really talked to Josh about it, but they have tried to use the same tactic with him that they did on me. I’m sure things will get worked out soon but I don’t think he will be back.

By jason

July 29, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

terrell barron said: With Law, Evans, Kapono, Solo, and Zaza off the bench. Not bad. Not bad at all.

That bench is horrendous.

By Ken Strickland

July 29, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

REALIST-if we use your analogy, you have to say Childress is worth more than $10M plus, since that’s what someone was willing to pay him(that’s 10M plus the free living quarters and paid income taxes). We should’ve offered him at least 11M to resign with us, based on your reasoning. And if Chills is worth 10-11M, using common logic and deduction, don’t you think Smoove should be worth at least as much?

The thing that really bites my butt is the SAASG’s willingness to assume Bibby’s $15M contract, while knowing both Joshes would become RFA’s at seasons end. Bibby is on the down side of his career and has become rather one dimensional, although still effective. Yet, these fools seem unwilling to pony up for a rising star that brings this franchise excitement, recognition and future growth.

The SAASG isn’t in the drivers seat, Smoove is. When he finally gets fed up trying to negotiate with these morons, all he has to do is say that he wants to accept a one yr tender and become an UFA. That will force our reactive morons to either:

(1) Give him what he wants.(That’s what we’ve been saying all along).

(2) Initiate a sign and trade.(Because the SAASG have backed themselves into a corner, no team will give fair market value for him because they won’t have to).

(3) Sign him to the 1yr tender and lose him without compensation.(Hey, if you limit the money you want to pay, he’ll limit the length of time he’ll stay. Now that’s marketing.

By doc

July 29, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

terrell if your sources are correct then th person to not eat crow but crow the loudest would be our on ando who has been stumping for bargnani the past few blogs even trying to convince owners of the value of such a move.

it would be oooohh to funny if it came down like that. better sign the boy up for lead scout and then more. already got the marketing guy in manny t. when are the owners going to figure out al the talent on the blog much less on their team? aj can handle the cfo position i am sure, just dont let him and ando into the same room without shock collars on. come on, press releases? got to go to ray. gm got to be jhan a he is always rebuilding something from nothing so it can be sold quickly. hit man honest abe, me, the chaplin, heh heh

sign up for a job guys. they need all the help we can give, consider it community service.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Did you talk to Childress? Give nme a link. If this is true, at least they told him “WAIT UNTIL WE SIGN SMOOVE”. lol!! At least they realize who’s more important to the Franchise.

By AtlFlavor

July 29, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

There is some tough damage that has been done in these Talks. Maybe it is The Point of No Return. If so the Brown deal with Detroit could open a ST with the Hawks.The Focus is on Prince but Dumars wants to deal Wallace BAD. If so Joe D can pull a real J Smooth deal. He knows the Hawks wanted Brown but they are moving at a snails pace. A package of Wallace n Brown for the Smith is a GOOD deal for both side IMO. Thats 17 million. Fill out the roster with West JRich Hunter Jackson with min deals.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Did you talk to Childress? Give me a link. If this is true, at least they told him “WAIT UNTIL WE SIGN SMOOVE”. lol!! At least they realize who’s more important to the Franchise.

By doc

July 29, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

jason, since i can read your comments i can agree that it looks like a frighteningly bad bench but it means we have a near full compliment of players to form a team. i guess that is the good news if it comes to pass. wishful thinking.

By Tyger

July 29, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Market Value vs. Market Price

Market value is an estimation of what something is worth in current market conditions.

Market price is what a buyer actually pays a seller.

In this case, Josh Smith may have a market value of $10-$12M. But because of market conditions - UFA, lack of offers, etc. - his market price is only what a team is willing to pay.

Why cry over Unrestricted Free Agency? He knew he was an UFA, he knew the market would be limited. You dont see Andre Iguadola crying in the papers. He openly said he understood the marketplace and that teams wouldnt get into a bidding war over a UFA, especially where teams indicated they would match.

Maybe it has something to do with at least “attending” college.

By Tyger

July 29, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Market Value vs. Market Price

Market value is an estimation of what something is worth in current market conditions.

Market price is what a buyer actually pays a seller.

In this case, Josh Smith may have a market value of $10-$12M. But because of market conditions - UFA, lack of offers, etc. - his market price is only what a team is willing to pay.

Why cry over Unrestricted Free Agency? He knew he was an UFA, he knew the market would be limited. You dont see Andre Iguadola crying in the papers. He openly said he understood the marketplace and that teams wouldnt get into a bidding war over a UFA, especially where teams indicated they would match.

Maybe it has something to do with at least “attending” college.

By Pragmatist

July 29, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Ken, you say give him what he wants. How much is too much? What if he decides he wants $13? $14? where is the limit?

By BLONJU

July 29, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

SIGN SMOOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEED TO BE ABLE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT and I WANT TO BUY TICKETS FOR THE 08-09 SEASON … NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS WILL HAPPEN UNTIL THIS B.S. IS RESOLVED …

one more thing…

like seiko says - Biedrins, Bogut, Okafor, Ellis, Kevin Martin, Al Jefferson… IF THOSE GUYS CAN SIGN FOR MORE THAN 10 MILLION, THEN WHAT ARE WE FREAKING DOING?????????

SMOOVE DESERVES A DEAL TO HIS LIKING… TAKE CARE OF OUR BOY - DON’T RADE HIM !!!!!!! IF WE DO TRADE HIM, EXPECT THE HIGHLIGHT FACTORY TO BECOME THE LIBRARY !

COME ON HAWKS, RISE UP!

By The Flash

July 29, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

FULL CIRCLE This mess is on two people: David Stern and Jerry Colangelo. That’s the list.

Stern’s interpretation of the owner’s agreement as not giving Belkin veto power over any trades made was laughable. He reached that ridiculous conclusion that violates every rule of contract construction for only one reason: his boy Jerry wanted the deal done.

Once Davy boy issued that ruling, this franchise was cooked. He forced the Spirit into a deal to buy out Belkin which they still haven’t taken step one to do, and then washed his hands of the mess.

Colangelo got what he wanted and he and Davy boy have moved onto bigger things—selling the game internationally.

The Spirit never had the resources to run this franchise; if they did, they never would have taken Belkin in as the general partner to begin with. They still don’t have the money to run this team, having shot their wade to purchase JJ, which was necessary to force a false confrontation with Belkin. Either they had to pay JJ what they did, or they had to give Colangelo what they did. Any idiot would know that they did not have to do both.

Now, the only one who has any ability to fix this mess is the guy who made it, that would be Davy boy. But, David Stern will not intervene in this legal wrangling, even though it is his deal that the Spirit have been screwing with because Atlanta does not, never did, never will, mean squat to him.

I have completely lost track of where things are in the saga between the Spirit and Belkin but it would seem that that better be resolved and quick. The only person on the planet who can possibly make that happen is the Commish. And, he my friends, is off with his boy Jerry in China, watchin da league grow.

How, having built from the ground up and having had that showing against the Celtics, this team didn’t lock up its core, as in the Joshes, immediately is nothing short of a scandal. But then again that is where this whole thing began, and don’t say I didn’t tell you so, because I predicted precisely where Davyboy’s ruling would lead. I take no pleasure in saying this; I a have become a huge fan, less of the Hawks themselves than some of the very terrific players on this blog.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

Apparently the Biedrins deal is a little cheaper than we previously thought… good news for the Hawks I guess, although it doesn’t seem like the DASG is gonna use this to their advantage any time soon.

Sekou, thanks for posting my video haha.

Ken, what does the “SA” in “SAASG” stand for?

By hawkfan

July 29, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

terrell, i didn’t talk to childress, my friend’s friend did, but its true though, i can’t give you a link cause its under a private message thing

By Josh Smith

July 29, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Put up or shut up.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

OLE!

tyger

Did “at least attending college” help you to know the difference between a RFA and an UFA?

I bet Josh knows, without a single college course.

Don’t be condescending. It takes away from whatever points you’re trying to make.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

ALL Y’ALL ASG DEFENDERS READ THIS

So there has been a vocal minority (maybe even a majority, I can’t count) of people who think the DASG made the right move by letting Childress walk to Europe.

Then there’s people like me, Ray, and Ando who think that wouldn’t have happened if the DASG wasn’t a bunch of braindead morons to begin with.

Well Slam Magazine’s Lang Whitaker interviewed Childress’ agent Lon Babby today… let’s see what he has to say.

<But for it to get to a point where a player of Josh Childress’ magnitude is prepared to consider taking a very unusual step, something went wrong in the process, whether it was our fault or their fault. I think our view of it is they made it clear to him throughout the course of his career there that he was very important to the team and he was a pillar of the franchise, but yet from Josh’s perspective, the pace of the negotiations did not reflect that. That’s where I say the poetry was off. The Hawks I’m sure would have a very different point of view about that. But the idea that this thing was allowed to get to the point where it had a life of its own really is some kind of flaw in the process.

Now, Josh isn’t the only one. You look at Josh Smith, you look at Okafor and how long that took until today. You look at Deng and Gordon, Iguodala, a lot of these players are in the same boat. We were just lucky enough to find an alternative that we think kind of changed the dynamic a little. And we’re curious as to whether it will change the dynamic when he comes back. But in the meantime it beats playing for the qualifier. >>

In other words, if the DASG hadn’t dragged their feet Childress would have probably got a market-value (much less than $10 million/year) deal done here. That’s what I’ve been saying, what Ray’s been saying, and what Ando’s been saying, among other people. Not that the Hawks should have paid Childress $10 million/year, but that they could have paid him reasonable market value and kept him if they had acted more quickly.

By turd monkey

July 29, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

MICHAEL- if you can’t keep up with the conversations on this blog, then go back to playing with the rest of Jerry’s Kids.

REALIST- boy are you stupid. Just simplify it and say that you work for the spirit group and you don’t like the joshes. You would probably rather us trade for Wally Sczerbiak or somebody.

SOME SENSE- You have no sense. Stop shooting the messenger you ding dong. Some of you people are really something. so a guys not good enough to pay big money to because hes a so called athlete and not a so called basketball player? the results are what matter and both guys brought results. so I guess you would rather have a more traditional basketball player with less talent for the game.

I SURE WISH SPIRIT GROUP EMPLOYEES WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SHOW UP ON THIS BLOG. BUT APPARENTLY THEY ARE.

By Realist

July 29, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

Frustrated Fan, or whoever was asking what my solution is—

My preferred action from the start was to work a sign-and-trade for Smith. From the day the season ended, the Hawks should have been calling teams like Indiana, Toronto and Detroit, looking to deal Smith for a player (e.g. O’Neal, Ford or Calderon, or Billups) as well as a draft pick, if possible. Even if they picked up a second-rounder or a future first-rounder to go with a mediocre player, it would have been pretty good value for Smith.

Because then you’d be left with: money to pay a new FA (think Iguodala, Deng, or someone next year) and draft picks to rebuild.

Who knows if the Hawks ever actually tried to pursue a sign and trade? Hard for us to know, based on Sekou’s vague reporting, but it sounds like they didn’t work too hard on it.

Given that they moved too late to get the best players available (or to get into the 2008) draft, they should be looking at deals to net 2009 draft picks, and possibly consider a swap of Smith for Deng.

If all else fails, heck yes I would let Smith play on a one-year offer sheet. You’ll still get his services this year (at a cheap rate). You’ll have basically the same nucleus as last year (remember, Gearon told us that “all the pieces are in place”), so if they are truly as great as they think they are after the Boston series, they should be contenders… and with Childress gone and Smith on a chearp one-year tender, they will have the money/flexibility to make a midseason move if need be to add key players. If it all goes to heck because maybe they aren’t as good as they think, they can deal Bibby mid-season for a draft pick, and maybe even deal Smith. You won’t walk away empty-handed. And even if you don’t get anything for Smith, you’ll have cap space to go after FA next year.

By Josh Childress

July 29, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

If ASG doesn’t sign J Smoov, I’ll never go to a Hawks game again!

I knew this team was done when they re-signed Woody Woodpecker!

DONE!!!!!

By honest_abe

July 29, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

just signed randolph morris. WHOOT WHOOT! if you can’t get excited about that then you aren’t a true hawks fan. heh

BAH!

By jc

July 29, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith is good, but I cringe everytime he throws up a jump shot. The hawks should be working on a sign and trade for Okafor . Then we would have the makings of a real team.

By doc

July 29, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

ok now. hallalueyah we got a big, 23 nba games under his belt but you should have seen him in aau ball as a teen or the junior yr at u of k. i wonder if he wears a coat well?

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

Realist, i’ll give you a minute to re-read this…And even if you don’t get anything for Smith, you’ll have cap space to go after FA next year. FA as in ‘fried artichokes’ or somethin’ right??? ‘cause surely you CANNOT mean this franchise would KNOW HOW to sign a FA!! we can’t even sign our own RFAs much less know how to sign a player on the ‘open’ market!!!

By dawghead

July 29, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

I just want to say to Atlanta Spirit or whatever the hell your name is.I am so sick of your incompetence. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t the top priority signing both of the Josh’s.Maybe if you would have showed Childress any kind of respect instead of telling him to find a better offer he would not have bolted to a European league.Which is pretty sorry in itself that a top NBA 6th man would rather take their chances overseas instead of signing a contract with your crappy ownership and highschool coach.Now here we are practiclly in August and neither one of the Josh’s signed.It is clear that owning a basketball team was just a buisness venture for your crappy company and you could give a @#$% about the fans or the players.If you fail to sign Josh Smith you can count on that I will never watch a Hawks game or buy any merchandise for as long as your group owns the team and no sign and trade is going to make up for your stupidity.Pay Josh what he wants, he’s worth it. How many other players in the league can block shots, rebound, and score at his caliber and still have the potential to still develop even more.I mean have you idiots lost your freaking minds.Oh, wait…I forgot you do not have something to lose it in the first place.All I hear about is how “We have a plan”.Atlanta Spirit you could not plan your way out of a paper bag.I have a plan for you how about selling the team to someone like Authur Blank who cares more about the fans than the bottom line.

By $ Bill

July 29, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Hakws sign Randolph Morris! Thanks Sekou!

By $ Bill

July 29, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Hacks sign Randolph Morris! Thanks Sekou!

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Realist…and what FA next year will want to come to atlanta if your thinking plays out the way u speculate? Not a damn soul would want to come here. And if they do the Hawks will over pay for that person. And I for one know you wouldn’t like that with your market value theory. I agree aren’t as good as fans think they are. Any time a team is 8 games under 500, they aren’t that good. But we showed progress which is a step we hadn’t shown in 8-10 years. We were committed to building thru the draft and the fans stuck with that and was patient now its time to give our draft picks their second contracts and we renig on what we were committed to doing.

By Frustrated Fan

July 29, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Realist…and what FA next year will want to come to atlanta if your thinking plays out the way u speculate? Not a damn soul would want to come here. And if they do the Hawks will over pay for that person. And I for one know you wouldn’t like that with your market value theory. I agree aren’t as good as fans think they are. Any time a team is 8 games under 500, they aren’t that good. But we showed progress which is a step we hadn’t shown in 8-10 years. We were committed to building thru the draft and the fans stuck with that and was patient now its time to give our draft picks their second contracts and we renig on what we were committed to doing.

By honest_abe

July 29, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

right on doc! bk looks like the smartest guy on earth after he turned down that extension. working for these buffoons is akin to heading down a dead end street. hit man? i’d rather take rathbun’s job. heh

By Mychelfromatl

July 29, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

Hawks just signed Randolph Morris…wonder if he can convince Josh to come back ball with him? Hopefully something gets worked out soon so I can enjoy the rest of my summer!!

By Mychelfromatl

July 29, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Hawks just signed Randolph Morris…wonder if he can convince Josh to come back and ball with him? Hopefully something gets worked out soon so I can enjoy the rest of my summer!!

By dawghead

July 29, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

I just want to say to Atlanta Spirit or whatever the hell your name is.I am so sick of your incompetence. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t the top priority signing both of the Josh’s.Maybe if you would have showed Childress any kind of respect instead of telling him to find a better offer he would not have bolted to a European league.Which is pretty sorry in itself that a top NBA 6th man would rather take their chances overseas instead of signing a contract with your crappy ownership and highschool coach.Now here we are practiclly in August and neither one of the Josh’s signed.It is clear that owning a basketball team was just a buisness venture for your crappy company and you could give a @#$% about the fans or the players.If you fail to sign Josh Smith you can count on that I will never watch a Hawks game or buy any merchandise for as long as your group owns the team and no sign and trade is going to make up for your stupidity.Pay Josh what he wants, he’s worth it. How many other players in the league can block shots, rebound, and score at his caliber and still have the potential to still develop even more.I mean have you idiots lost your freaking minds.Oh, wait…I forgot you do not have something to lose it in the first place.All I hear about is how “We have a plan”.Atlanta Spirit you could not plan your way out of a paper bag.I have a plan for you how about selling the team to someone like Authur Blank who cares more about the fans than the bottom line.

By Ken Strickland

July 29, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

NAJEH-it stands for SORRY A$$ ATLANTA SPIRIT GROUP(SAASG).

After reading these posts, it looks like I’m not alone in my off season of misery at the hands of the SAASG. WHAT WERE SUND AND THE SAASG TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH BY TELLING HAWKS FANS THEY HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF RESIGNING OUR RFA’S AND KEEPING OUR CORE INTACT. THEN THEY ANNOUNCE TO THE ENTIRE NBA THEY’LL MATCH ANY OFFER MADE TO KEEP THEIR RFA’S. IN THE END, THEY DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. At this point, these incompetent morons are neither proactive or reactive, just inactive.

It’s really telling when the fans of a franchise have more insight and compassion for the team and it’s players than ownership. When the Lakers got rid of their GM(JWest), they ended up losing their HC(PJackson) and their most dominant player(Shaq)in the process. We got rid of our GM, and we end up losing one of our key players, and are dangerously close to losing another(JSmith). But,unlike the Lakers, unfortunately, we didn’t lose our HC, who just might end up being the major cause of us possibly losing both of our RFA’s.

Let’s face it, there are some very informed and intelligent individuals on these blogs. There are too many to name, besides, we all know who we are(smile). Yet, not one person has been able to come up with an intelligent and/or logical explanation for the inactivity, the lies, and the lack of vision and committment that’s being consistently displayed by the SAASG. THESE INCOMPETENTS ARE A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO RUN A BUSINESS OR FRANCHISE, PERIOD.

By The Flash

July 29, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

This is just a guess, but there will be no sign and trade because anyone who they’d get in a trade they’d have to pay and there, my friends, is the rub, as the Great Bard put it.

As for letting Smith play out on a short string and the ensuing speculation about whom he should be traded for, excuse me fellas, been there, done that, yes? Does the name Al Harrington mean anything to anyone? There will be no trade during the year because, once again, the Hawks will not pay Luel Deng or anyone else the kind of money that it would take.

Guessing again but Josh will play this season out to get to unrestricted status. He will, like Al, play cautiously, and Woody will be on orders from Gearon to keep his yap shut, because who wants Josh to get hurt. Josh will be traded for a first round pick, and the merry-go-round goes round, and round, round and round, round and round. The Hawks fans, did anyone ever believe that hooey that Gearon cared one whit about anyone but his old man, and then only because he wanted to outdo him, which, given the circumstances, would be laughable were it not so freakin sad.

By ricardo

July 29, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Well said Dawghead.

By B.A. ToDa

July 29, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Why do we draft these young players….seriously? But like i said before, we’re getting rid of a future member of the Men’s 2012 USA basketball team.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

OLE!

Manny, I’ll give it a try.

Realist

From your 1:24 p.m.post:

If Emeka Okafor signs for $72M, then $72M is the market value of EMEKA OKAFOR, not JOSH SMITH. Josh Smith is worth whatever someone is willing to pay him.

Tell me which player produced more for his team:

     Pts.    Reb.   Asst.   Stl.  Blks

Okafor 13.8 10.7 0.9 0.8 1.9

Smith 17.2 8.6 3.4 1.5 2.8

Okafor is 3 years older than Josh and his scoring and rebound numbers last season were lower than his rookie year. Josh’s have increased.

So why wouldn’t Josh be worth a comparable salary?

From your post again: In the long run, you’ll be able to build a competitive team because you haven’t overspent on any one or two players who don’t produce up to their contract size.

OK, lets talk about “producing up to their contract size. And since I’ll be comparing with guards, we’ll leave out the rebound numbers.

Last year JJ averaged 21.7 with 4.2 asst. and 1.0 stls. For $14M. Bibby averaged 14.1 with 6.5 asst. and 1.3 stls For $14.75M

I’d have to say that compared to those numbers, Josh, if he didn’t improve at all (and he has every season, would easily be worth 12-13M. Remember that you brought up “producing up to contract size”

Please tell me how this is not a valid comparison.

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

Morris is capable of working at both center and power forward for the Hawks, who still have to sort out Smith’s future. The restricted free agent is still in the midst of slow-paced negotiations with the team on a potential contract extension.- by Sekou Smith

Is Sekou trying to tell us something. Hopefully Smith’s ex-AAU teammate can help recruit and persuade him to resign with the Hawks…

By ray

July 29, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Terrell, “at least they realize who’s important to the franchise”? Uh, based on their actions, or lack thereof, I’d say they don’t know. And your endorsement of the comments made by Realist are puzzling to say the least.

Realist, I have struggled to reason with some of your ideas. But based on your own words, I understand now why you say what you say. You don’t like and don’t want Josh Smith, and that drives every argument you have. The only problem with that is that you lose track of all the details except the one agenda. MannyT has it right on the market value thing, and Ken shows inconsistencies in the argument.

Where’s the forest? I don’t know, I can’t see past all these trees… I’m just sayin’. Think about it. What are we talking about here? Josh is the second best player on the team right now. Of course, people can say that Horford and Bibby are both better, but last year showed no such thing, and the simple fact is that neither player is even the same type of player that Smith is. So what’s the second best player on the team worth to you?

Kind of a dumb question, I guess, considering you want him the hell out of here…

Flash, good to see you, and of course…you’re right. I posted something along the lines of what you said some time ago (which really makes it an echo of what you originally said way back when). “I told you so” has become a bitter tasting refrain, has it not? I, too believe that we will never see the light at the end of this rabbit hole we like to call a tunnel until these fools some people call owners are ousted one way or another.

Atlanta has all the necessary potential for an NBA town. Regardless of whether or not Daddy Stern cares about us, it shall remain true. It works in so many other places, as it is.

The ardent ASG supporters don’t like to go back to the beginning on this. They want to act like it doesn’t exist, like this group sprang out of some cloud and just began to exist. They’re way out of their league. You know what the difference is between them and everybody on this blog (or in the stands)? Simple:

Enough money, in the right place, at the right time, knowing the right people. With exception of Gearon Sr, were any of these guys working in the NBA business? Tell me which ones were. Gearon Sr. worked with Ted Turner, but that’s about it. So they knew no more than any of us do. And after 4 years of experience…I have to wonder if they know anymore than any of us now. They should. But they don’t act like it.

I’m not saying that we are all on their level. I’m just saying that they’re not the real thing. They didn’t even have enough money to do it. Neither do I. I know it’s way too oversimplified. But tell me there’s that much difference…

By HHoops

July 29, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Trade Possibilities

First of all, why don’t the Hawks offer a contract to JR Smith. He is a RFA @ 2.3 M. I bet he would sign for 3-4 M. That would give us a really good outside shooter. Denver is in such a cost cutting mood (Camby), they probably would not match the offer.

1. According to terrell barron Toronto is interested in trading Bargnani (5.1 M) and Kapono (5.7 M) for J. Smith. That trade gets us a Big that has range on his jumper and a outside shooter and we save 1.2 M, assuming that we sign Smooth for 12 M per. That’s a good trade!

2. Offer J. Smith to the Hornets for Chandler straight up. His contract is @ 10.95 M for next year and goes up the next 2 years to 11.85 M & 12.75 M. We get a starting Big and save 1 M to us on JR Smith. Hornets probably won’t bite, but they might like Smooth running the wing with CP3.

3. Detroit wants Smooth. Find out how bad Dumars wants him. Offer J. Smith (assuming 12-13 M contract) and Speedy (5.7 M expiring contract) for Rasheed (13.6 M expiring contract) and Prince (9.5 M for 3 years) and get them to pay the difference in contracts to make it NBA approved. Dumars gets rid of Rasheed and he gets Smith. The Hawks get Prince, Rasheed for 1 year, and get rid of Speedy’s contract. The following year, Rasheed’s 13.6 comes off the books along with Bibby’s 15.2 and Zaza’s 4 M. We have some serious options now!

4. Offer the Clippers J. Smith (who they want bad) for Kaman (9.5 M contract for 4 years) straight up. They get their man (Smith) to go with Camby and we get a Big that can play and is signed for 4 years. We also save 2.5 M to use on JR Smith. That’s not a bad deal for either team!

5. My last trade possibility is only a dream. Offer the Lakers Smith for Bynum. I know they won’t bite, but why not offer?

Tell me which one of these 5 trade possibilities you like best and which one you think has possibilities.

By doc

July 29, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

honest to have you as the face of this franchise telling it like it is, is a hit man. heh heh now where did i first hear that laugh?

By Maxx

July 29, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

Hopefully Randolph Morris can return to playing how he did his Junior year in College and back in his Atlanta Celtic days. We need to resign J-Smoove or none of this matters at all

By Old School

July 29, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

There are very specific reasons why Josh Smith is not receiving any offers from other teams. Here are the facts:

Philadelphia : No Offer LA Clippers: No Offer Detroit: No offer

1.) Plays no Defense 2.) Takes plays off on a regular basis 3.) One dimensional player. Can dunk and when motivated will block shots. 4.)Attitude!! No one wants to put up with his immature outbursts and selfish all about me game 5.) Jay Bilas was right, one of the all time busts in the league. 6.) No jump shot/offensive skills that can carry and NBA team. 7.) Rick Sund and ownership are very much aware there is not interest in Josh Smith from other NBA teams. He may need to switch agents.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

doc I’d prefer to be the team capologist. I think I’d spend more time getting to the office than doing the job.

Given they way it’s done around ASGville, you don’t have to worry about any of the rules, because we don’t sign any pricey free agents. (Not picking on Morris or Evans, but neither deal requires any fancy manipulations. We should still be under the cap with these signings.

If the ASG decides that they won’t pay Smith, they may as well let Sund find the best deal he can to get players with multiple year contracts. If you cannot resign your own guys or attract top or mid level tier free agents, you have to get your better new players via draft or trade. As we were not in the draft this summer, trade is the only option left to force players onto the roster.

At this rate ASG will become the Atlanta Stalag Group. Do your time and hope the war of incompetence ends sooner than later.

OLE

By kgbsfinst

July 29, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

REALIST

How are we supposed to sign IGGY if the market isnt set for him? You basically have said we shouldnt set the market for Smith, why would we want to set it for him? How much would you be willing to pay for him? Keep in mind Philly can match. Do you think they wouldnt match for $9 million a year? You obviously dont want to pay anyone on the roster more than $10, what in your right mind thinks that we would be able to sign IGGY?

Second, do you REALLY think a FA is going to come into a situation like this? I mean, we had a guy, a NON-STARTER mind you, turn down almost $7 million a year to go to Greece. You dont think players talk to each other? You dont think a player considering signing with the Hawks woudlnt ask Smith, or Chill what it was like. Do you think they will talk kindly about our coach? Ownership?

Lets be REAL….REALIST

By Kevin Willis

July 29, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

Randolph Morris, this is great. We sign average player after average player. Excellent work ASG and Sund. This is a total JOKE. It’s like watching the Thrashers sign 7-4th line centers. ahahhahahhahahah

By ray

July 29, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

We got Randolph. For the league minimum, no doubt. So, he’ll look good in a suit after Woody decides “he’s not ready to play”. Yep. Kid’s got talent. Don’t know if his motivation is up, though. And don’t know if we’ll even get to find out.

Realist, that was quite a few fastballs all at one time, eh? As to your comments about trading Josh Smith: the ASG has been presented with some pretty good trade offers. They’re not taking. They are trying to do two things: scare anybody that’s interested off, and sign Smith for as cheaply as they can. Sounds smart, right? Well, it’s not. Even Charlotte realizes that. At some point, you have to square with just what a guy is worth to you, and what you stand to lose if you let him get away. Or, you move him for whatever you think is a better option.

But guess what? Either way, you have to pay. That’s the problem. They don’t want to pay. They will continue to low-ball him and try to bully him into taking what they’re offering, which is only a very marginal increase (yearly, at least) over the original offer, with an extra year added. Josh may want 12 or 13 million, but I think he’d take 11 million a year. And I think he’d be a fool not to take it.

But instead, there will be no trade, and Josh will play out one year. And we will be lottery bound for the next several years (unless Randolph Morris becomes the second coming of Zach Randolph-on the court that is). Heh.

By ingram

July 29, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

what was the asking price for josh smith with the detroit pistons ?

By SB

July 29, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this

Some of you guys are so off based in your opions. You say he’s a knuckle head but you want R.Artest? You say you hate his jump shot but you want E.Okafur? You say he’s not worth the money and you bring up the often injured J. O’neal? You lable him an athlete but you want T. Prince( Prince dose have a higher basket ball IQ at the moment). None of these guys are as good as Smith. All of them have the same flaws he dose. So what exactly do you want? You come off A lot better saying you don’t like the guy rather than complaining about what he can’t do.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

HHoops Given the difficulty the team has had in getting quality players with experience, I like the Toronto trade mainly because both of those guys are under contract for multiple years.

Marvin goes next year and Kapono is the SF. Bargiani becomes the starting center, with Al at the 4.

In reality I’d be surprised if TO would give up both guys. If they play hardball, they won’t have to do so. Get a 3 way going to get the Hawks another player.Sactown is trying to ditch Kenny Thomas’s contract. I’d find a way to get that contract moved as a part of this deal. I’d push on ATL that they don’t need the expensive Kapono when they have the value priced Evans ;-)

Side notes—re: Detroit option—I think the most you can move in cash considerations for a trade is 3 mil.

If the ASG won’t pay Josh, why do you think they would pay Bynum…particularly with him coming off an injury?

The Clips might give up Camby, but they won’t give up Kaman. You keep the 26 yr old, not the 34 yr old.

If the Hornets move their only legit center (who should have been on the Olympic team) after making this level of progress, the riots in NO will have nothing to do with water. In my opinion, there’s a better chance of getting Bynum than Chandler.

OLE

By SB

July 29, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this

Also.. ANDO………. has brought up the Marvin/Bargani trade a couple of times now. If that trade is out their I’d do it in a heartbeat. We would need to get a vet big in free agency. I like Morris but he hasn’t played enough to depend on him.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

David Stern does know how to turn lemons into lemonade.

Say what you will about the man, he knows how to grow the game. With all this curiosity about the Euro game, let the fans see it in person during the preseason.

If it stinks, it;s fine that guys are leaving for Europe. If it’s good, this is a test for expanding in ways that appeal to NBA fans!

Stern is the king of good CRAP!

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this

Jason, what’s so bad about that bench? Solo and Zaza could be replaced, if it did’nt work out. How bout, Acie, Evans, Kapono, Randolph Morris, and Zaza? Or we could even start Evans at the 2,and JJ at the 3, and bring Marvin off the bench? Thats a better bench than we trotted out last year.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks Ken… I was thinking maybe it stood for “Stupid Azz”, but I guess “Sorry Azz” is equally descriptive.

By John

July 29, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

Are you guys serious? Barnani??? Have you seen him play?? He is not very good. He is a shooting big man that is not even a great shooter. Talk about someone who cannot play defense.

By ray

July 29, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this

SB, that would certainly be the short of it, wouldn’t it?

Old School, you’d definitely be better off just saying that you don’t like Smith. The rest of your noise is just noise. The kid was drafted 17th and is the second most productive and easily most versatile player on the team.

HHoops, getting Kaman is a pipe dream too, although I’m sure Sund would just love it (for reasons I won’t specify). No team is giving away a legit starting center like that. Not at his age and talent level.

I wish the Hawks would make an offer to JR Smith that Denver wouldn’t match. But they won’t. Too much money, and they’re not going to anyway since they got Mo Evans for cheap.

Chandler is another pipe dream. Jeff Bower is a GM we wish we had. Actually, it almost doesn’t matter, because with owners like these, any GM is stuck in a tight spot. Getting back to topic, Chandler is a legit starting center in the NBA with great production. No way does he get moved on less they have another one on tap. And if they did, one of those guys would move to PF.

The Toronto trade (if it has any validity) isn’t the best value-wise, but the most likely to happen if any trades will happen at all. I like Kopono, and Bargnani would work well with Horford….assuming Woodson doesn’t bone head it and try to cram the guy down under the basket, where he really doesn’t belong. I’m not ready to make that assumption.

Detroit may or may not make such a deal. One problem: cap space. It’s great if you know what to do with it. We don’t. We’re not signing any good free agents anytime soon. Not next year, not the year after, or the one after that. Cap space means more money for the ASG to put back into their hole-filled pockets. They’ll take some of it and offer an insultingly low amount to some marquee free agent who will hang up the phone after 3 minutes of conversation. Then they’ll say that they tried, but there was just nothing out there that made sense.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Two more examples to highlight that pure economic examples do not apply to the NBA Market.

Does Balkman have negative value? The Knicks gave cash and a pick to Denver with Balkman for 2 guys that they let go. In pure economics that’s less than zero. Keep in mind that their top paid player is Stephon Marbury, the 2nd highest paid player in the NBA.

I could make a league of former NBA players that still have NBA value due to their cap situations. Does this mean that former Hawk Roshown McLeod has more value than Balkman right now??? Note that these numbers were posted prior to the Jason Kidd deal. Ouch.

Fiscal good CRAP is about manipulating the rules, not market value.

By ray

July 29, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

MannyT, you beat me to it. I should just have my post deleted…

John, acquiring Bargnani is about creating mismatches. He’s a great outside shooter who can grab some rebounds as well. The idea is to let Horford do the work on the low block while Bargnani hits from the outside. Horford is also a good passer. If you try to double Horford on the block, he dishes out to Bargnani, who makes you pay. Try to extend the defense out to Bargnani, he gets it down to Horford, who will score. Utah does it all day long with Boozer and Okur. Same thing. And it works. And they don’t even have the shooter/scorer we have in JJ.

By ray

July 29, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

Najeh, heh heh! One works as well as the other…

By TheAntiMe

July 29, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

“Also can we truly blame Woodson for the losses? Look at the lineups he was dealt in the past all deftly flawwed with cast-off, sub par, over the hill players and young players. And no true point guard in most situations!!!!!!!!!!!”

Yes, we can blame Woodson for mismanaging the line-up and his inability to adjust his personnel and strategy to counter what the opposing coach was successfully running against the Hawks at any given time. IMO, Mike Woodson is, by far, the least impressive X’s and O’s coach in the NBA. Also, I haven’t heard too many of his players praising him as a coach that motivates his team to win. Outside of those things, what else is there left for a coach to do to have any real chance of being successful? Especially if, like you say, the overall player talent is either missing or in players who have yet to realize their full potential.

btw Sekou, thanks for the video link. It was pretty funny. Especially the part where the role of Mike Woodson was played by Mr. Potato Head. Funny stuff.

By jason

July 29, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this

Wtf is Sekou doing that he can’t answer our questions or post a better update?

THIS IS HIS JOB

By SB

July 29, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this

JOHN…….. I’ve seen him play, and he can shoot the lights out. Defensively he’s soft right now, but he is 6’11 7ft. He can put his body on the other teams 5, Which we don’t have right now. Also in ANDO’s propoasle we’d get Parker, to fill Chill’s role. Over all we’d be a bigger better shooting team without giving up our runnig game. Bar can’t beat small forwards down the floor, but power forwards and centers he can run with the best of them.

By hawkfan

July 29, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this

terrell, i didn’t talk to childress, my friend’s friend did, but its true though, i can’t give you a link cause its under a private message thing

By cp

July 29, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

When you do a sign and trade you usually dont get great value in return. A sign and trade for Peja makes no sense. He is a small foward who makes more than Josh Smith is asking for. If you are going to pay Peja you might as well keep Josh. Bargani looks like a bust so far for a number one pick. I believe Ando was in favor in bringing him here only if we are giving up Marvin not Josh. I like the Kings deal but I read that Bibby and Artest did not get along in Sacramento. Im guessing that the combined deals of Artest and Miller are also more than what Josh wants. Artest will also be a free agent after one year. He has aslo taken numerous shots at this franchise. Im willing to bet he would be upset if he was traded here.

By david

July 29, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

Morris couldn’t play for the sorry knicks but he’s going to help us. I know somebody that could help us. Josh Smith.

By cp

July 29, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

When you do a sign and trade you usually dont get great value in return. A sign and trade for Peja makes no sense. He is a small foward who makes more than Josh Smith is asking for. If you are going to pay Peja you might as well keep Josh. Bargani looks like a bust so far for a number one pick. I believe Ando was in favor in bringing him here only if we are giving up Marvin not Josh. I like the Kings deal but I read that Bibby and Artest did not get along in Sacramento. Im guessing that the combined deals of Artest and Miller are also more than what Josh wants. Artest will also be a free agent after one year. He has aslo taken numerous shots at this franchise. Im willing to bet he would be upset if he was traded here. Imagine an upset Artest and Woody. That would be beyond ugly. I still say its better to give the kid 12 million a year and be done with it. Like someone said earlier, imagine whats going to happen next year with Marvin.

By jcove

July 29, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

Josh Howard/Stackhouse for Smith/Claxton

By ray

July 29, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

Jason…Talking on the phone to credible sources, answering and writing e-mails from those sources, working on material for other articles, enjoying his family…just to name a few. Do you work 24 hours a day? No? You didn’t think this blog was all his job entailed, did you? Oh, you did. Whoops.

By glw

July 29, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

HHoops

your trade possiblities are interesting, but I dont think any would have a chance of happening.

As other guys said, no way is New Orleans giving up Chandler, and the Clippers arent giving up Kaman, maybe Camby.

I ilke the Toronto deal, get 2 shooters, but I dont see why Toronto would want JSmith, dont they have Bosh and Oneal, and they need shooters to go with those 2 bigs, and that something Smoove isnt. there are a lot of trade possiblities, but I dont think many have much of a chance of happening. most teams are spending there money up and it would take some real creativiity to pull a deal off now.

Correct me if i am wrong, but J Smith is a base year player, so if we do a sign and trade, say he gets 12m a year, we can take back 1/2 that plus 125% plus 100,000, so somewhere in the 7.5 million range. The situation is furhter complicated because since we can only take back 7.5 million, the other team would take back the 12 million that Smith would be signed for, most likely that means ohter teams would have to be involved.

Given salary cap rules, are there many legitimate trades that would work?

By Jose

July 29, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

You are all doing very well with value and price, a play of words. Please check the possibilities at this link: [text to be linked] (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9629)

By Brian

July 29, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

If you suck and will play for cheap, the Hawks will sign you.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

ray the request from HHoops was for feedback. No big deal that we had similar opinions on the topic.

The next time Joe Johnson asks for something, he better be more specific. In Evans he gets a vet with more experience than either Josh, but less productivity.

As for a big man, he gets one at the league minimum.

If he asks for nourishment, I think they’ll toss him one of those IV bags full of saline solution.

If the ASG makes their own, it’s quite cost effective;-)

OLE

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

OLE!

Realist

There are two kinds of people on this blog. Those who divide the blog into two camps, and those who don’t. ;-)

By Jose

July 29, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Correction: Please see this link for possibilities: [http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9629]

By jason

July 29, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

LOL @ That hoopsworld article.

“It could take a combination of JJ Redick, Brian Cook, Keith Bogans and Tony Battie to make a deal. Smith could earn between $10,621,516 and $11,761,832 to make a deal along with Claxton’s contract.”

LOl!!! Are these guys serious?

By Dr. De

July 29, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

Dear ASG,

I’m aware money is tight however, the Hawks haven’t had a combination (Smith/Hartford) that has produced such intensity and strength since (Nique/Willis). KG and Boston almost submitted to the hawks will. If you break up the tandem Hartford will not develope his complete game.

If Morris developes a mean streak we can do damage in the defensive power game. The Smith/Hartford combination will bring a Championship to the ATL. ASG be strong and wise, sign Josh. Your return will be great.

Additionally, obtain David Lee from NY and the Hawks will be able to force their will on 95% of the NBA franchises, because everyone knows defence and rebounding wins games.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

Jose Your guy at Hoopsworld like to put Speedy into those sign & trades. I’m sure that the Hawks would be willing to put him in the deal, but why would other teams want him?

Favre is in. Tex is out. JSmoove’s future is in doubt

run, run, run but you sure can’t hide

Dollar is low Euro is high Saw JChill Say good bye.

It’s a ball of confusion…

By drmaryb

July 29, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this

ASG reminds me of a Soap Opera…sumthin’ like As the Worm Turns or whatever.

Why can’t we do anything simple and easy - like SIGN J-Smoove for the Love of God! How hard can this be?

Just sign the MAN and watch the Jersey Sales Soar. The merchandise value alone should be enuff’ to justify the Money. I will personally PAY to see him PLAY!

Gee Whiz ..Where is Arthur when you need him! He can roam my sidelines any time!

I am so damned SIck & Tired of worrying about these damned HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By kirknga

July 29, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Well finally we have some new news about our team.

Welcome Randolph Morris, I think you will be a nice piece in the Hawks arsenal. It is my hope, and belief that the Hawks need another big, bring back Wright or sign Pollard (who should’ve never been let go by Wilkens and Babcock)

Despite some speculation in some corners, it looks as the Evans deal is done as well.

Good news. Good news. The team is doing the kind of things that some of us believe will yield an improved team.

What I find the most encouraging insight from Sekou is when he said * “I’ve never questioned the Atlanta Spirits’ commitment to trying to do what they think is best to put a winning team on the floor, only their methods (which is fair for any of us to do).” *

I believe the same thing and have caught hell because of the disagreement with the methods.

I think that statement also jives well with the mostly excellent observation from Realist.

There does appear, in my opinion and based on the tenor of the comments of some commentors, that there are indeed two camps. You describe them, in my opinion accurately as well.

I am a fan, but I am definitely in the more business-like camp, with an eye on not giving a contract that will “break the bank” and preclude the Hawks from resigning other players who are as important, or more important.

I understand many disagree, but I believe Bibby, if healthy should be retained. If Acie manages to make an unquestionable developmental leap and can run the team better, then I would be less inclined to resign Bibby.

I believe JJ and Horford are more important and would do nothing to put the team in position where resigning them would become impractical.

Which leads us to the most pressing and contentious business matter remaining which is the resolution of the Josh Smith matter.

Which I’ll cover in a separate post.

By darrell starks

July 29, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

THEY ARE BROKE GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Tyger

July 29, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this

Trade Josh for a #1, #2 pick

With Randolph Morris in the mix, ZaZa starts again, Horford moves to PF, Marvin at small, JJ and Bibby.

Do we even need Josh Smith? Other than dunk, what does he really do that Horford cant do better?

Trade Josh for Tayshaun Prince, an All-star and Olympian, and lets go for a championship.

Tayshaun is the same freakishly long athletic SF that Smoove aspires to be. He can shoot, has a pedigree and is an NBA champion, something we dont currently have.

Reality is a beotch, you are replaceable.

By C.O.G's Finest

July 29, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this

The Rockets will be in the finals next year. Artest for Bobby Jackson? Mcgrady, artest, yao. Woowwwwwwwwwww

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Bulls taking care of business too…

Although I’m not the biggest Luol Deng fan, and $11.6 million seems like a lot to pay him, it just means Josh Smith has every right now to demand as much if not more. More bad news for the DASG.

As far as the Randolph Morris signing is concerned, he’ll probably be a decent bench player, but I don’t see him as being a huge difference maker. He’s never been a great defensive player from what I’ve seen, and he’s gonna have to become a lot more consistent at his strong suit (low post scoring) to be a reliable contributor in the NBA. But at the very least I guess a little competition for Solomon Jones and Zaza Pachulia is not a bad thing.

Then again, it’s not like Woody is gonna give him any playing time anyway.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

That Hoopsworld article only further illustrates how foolish the DASG has been in waiting this long to get a deal done. The fact that their trade options have narrowed to such ridiculous proposals should be enough for the DASG to get a contract done.

Didn’t Michael Gearon once say he reads these blogs? Wonder if he still does, knowing that we all HATE HIM?!?!?!?!?

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

Whats so PUZZLING Ray? He was correct in saying some people want him, no matter what the cost, and some people think the ASG are going about it in the right way. (Considering all options). If that puzzles you, so be it. It’s the truth. I read this blog everyday, and I’ve seen just about every post. I have nothing against Smith, I just want the team to get better. If that includes re-signing smith, fine. If it does’nt, fine. Good work Sund on the Randolph signing. I guess? Is he signed or is he CLOSE to signing? There’s a difference. Look at Evans. I have yet to see him on the NBA.com transactions list.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this

kirknga

I’m leaving to go to bed early tonight, but I’ll look for your response in the morning. Here’s part of your earlier post:

I believe JJ and Horford are more important and would do nothing to put the team in position where resigning them would become impractical.

Smart advice.

From the stories I’ve read where JJ and Horford were interviewed, both of them were adamant about wanting Josh Smith back next season.

Don’t you think it could affect their decisions about re-signing, if we don’t resign Josh?

Particularly if there is a drop off in attendance?

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this

Yeah that Artest trade looks really good on paper. Yao still has to stay healthy for more than 50 games in a season for them to go deep in the playoffs though.

By kirknga

July 29, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this

In your description of the “business-like camp” Realist, you mention that we in that camp aren’t “interested in the definition of market value”, which I agree with, slightly.

Looking at Wikipedia, it includes about market value…

**Market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact”, while market value is “the true underlying value”. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value. For market price to equal market value, the market must be informationally efficient and rational expectations must prevail.

Market value is also distinct from fair value in that fair value depends on the parties involved, while market value does not.**

If we look at some, not all of discussions, I believe some of us have used the term market value when we meant market price when we talked about the Hawks allowing Smith and Childress to test the market.

The Hawks said, ok, go see what you can transact, or get ,because we believe your market value(i.e. what we feel you are worth and what doesn’t handicap future budgets) is different than what you believe.

Now we have seen the signing of other players, including Okafor who some, maybe even many, feel is lesser than Smith. I am not one of them.

What we are arguing now is what we believe is now the fair value of Smith when we use the signings of others to base our argument.

Based on this perceived fair value argument, I would say if the Hawks want to keep Smith they will need to pay $12-13 million/year. That is a “fair” price if one looks at the aforementioned signings.It is my evaluation that the Hawks should hold the line there.

But what is lost in the fair value argument, and what I have blogged about several times now, is then the market value, that is what the Hawks believe his underlying value to be.

Fair value depends on both parties involved and is independent of market value. The Hawks have offered, reportedly, a contract in the range of 6 years $60 million. Smith has rejected this offer believing he is worth more.

So it does indeed come down to market value with Smith a RFA, it is the Hawks alone who must determine it. If they decide their asset is worth so much, and they cannot come to an agreement, then the best option is to do a sign and trade deal now and acquire another quality assest and/or capacity to acquire more assets in return.

The second best option, and one that is likely to be a distraction and hinderance to the team , is for Smith to sign a one year deal and then be traded at or before the deadline for another quality asset or for capacity as well. There will be teams with defined needs and Smith is bound to be the answer to someone’s question.

The least attractive option, in my opinion, is to sign him to the 1-year deal and not trade him, and not resign him. If they do resign him, by chance, at this point, if he is the player that most here believe him to be, the Hawks will have to pay more at that point, than they would have to now. This would be a very bad business move by the ASG.

If for some reason he doesn’t play well and is not offered a contract higher than the Hawks feel his market value to be at that time, then it would be a good business move. Though I must admit this looks to be the most improvable of all the scenarios.

So as a member of camp 2, I am remain encouraged, especially with the signing of Morris. I believe we could be a good team now. With the only pressing issue remaining being Smith.

With some reportedly sign and trade deals on the table for him should he not agree to terms, I am still encouraged because we hopefully will get quality and value in return.

I do not believe that it has to be of equal value per se, but it does have to be something that fits, and does not impinge future budgets.

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this

kirknga Just curious on the Bibby thing.

What contract terms would you see as reasonable for Bibby’s next deal? I know it’s speculative, so lets guess that he has an average season (08-09) for his career and AC Law seems to be improving, but not at a star level.

I guess I’m in the other camp from realist based on past estimates of what I think Josh could get in a free market and related comments in morning post.

I think negotiations can deteriorate to a level that changes the dynamic of the deal. Similar to annoying restaurant staff to the extent that they might do something to your food.

OLE

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 29, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

Allow me to daydream for minute:

Now that Artest is going to Houston, that might make Shane Battier available. If there is anyway possible to get Battier in a Hawks uniform … talk about a guy who could make a huge impact on the team.

Steve Novak would be a good addition as well. And Luther Head or Steve Francis would also really help the team with scoring off the bench …

Alas, back to reality.

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

Hey Ray, when you become a multi-millionaire, maybe you can purchase the Hawks, and sign whoever you want for whatever amount you want to. But until then, it’s just your opinion against mine. What’s PUZZLING is the fact that you THINK your’re always right. Realist made some good points, if you ask me. So stop hatin. lol!!

By doc

July 29, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

in order to help the hawks understand what we all uderstand here about market value one more is about to fall. read on and weep:

With Deng committed to leaving for England by week’s end to join Great Britain’s national team — and insisting to the Bulls that he would not negotiate with them further without a deal by Friday — sources said that the sides have verbally agreed on a new six-year pact believed to be worth in excess of $70 million.

yup you said it sweetheart drmaryb.

arsenal did someone say randolph for the arsenal, what year?

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

Sautee I think attendance is way down on the list of priorities for a pro athlete.

Najeh I don’t hate Gearon. Never met him. In fact the guys I meet keep leaving under cloudy circumstances (CFO, CMO, GM). I may have stay away from high level ASG employees at those season ticket holder events ;-)

I do question how effective they are at running the empire. Hopefully the arena rentals (concerts, circus, etc) bring in buckets o cash.

Looks like lots of moves are coming through and the ASG are still hanging with the Slowskys.

It’s fine to move cautiously as a plan. Sometimes it looks like they are just uncomfortable closing deals. Almost like they are afraid to be the faces of buyers’ remorse.

If season ticket holders went about their business the same way, hardly anyone would renew or sign up before October.

P A I N

By HB Ando

July 29, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

With Okafor signing for $72 million, and the report that Deng is going to sign for more than $70 million, that elusive concept of “market value” is going up by the day, and, if the ASG is committed to keeping Josh Smith, their wait-and-see approach has probably just cost them another $10+million. If I was Smith’s agent, I’d love to use Okafor and Deng, from a statistical analysis standpoint, to justify no less than 6 years/$72 million.

And I’m not interested, to address several comments that have been made regarding my suggestion that we seek to obtain Bargnani, in using Smith in that transaction. It’s Marvin that I’d like to see utilized in that scenario.

The ASG needs to get this deal signed, because it seems like “market” gets higher on a daily basis.

By randy

July 29, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

Offer Smith 11 million and if he turns it down offer him 12, get it done! N O W!!!!!!!!!!

By Astro Joe

July 29, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Excuse me if I struggle to get excited by the Morris and Evans signings. I truly can’t imagine Morris having an impact any greater than what we have witnessed from Solo. We essentially have another big man project to offer to another unproven big man coach.Brilliant. And Evans is more akin to Ira Newble than Childress. A nomadic wing who can make an open J and provide 4 hard fouls in 15 minutes of game time.

And this is the Sund era? Geez, I can’t wait until next summer when we have a little cap space, a draft pick, a new head coach and a settled ownership group. This Dollar Store operation is about as annoying as having one of those super-cheap trash bags break before you make it to the dumpster.

By gb

July 29, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

the only sign an trade you might see is for draft picks and minimun salary players. the idea is to cut payroll. they won’t pay josh, and they will not pay anyone else 10 mil.

the basg make rankin and sons look like genius owners and thats not easy.

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

yep, SMOOVE is the new oil commodity and the stupid a$$ BASG CANNOT afford to even walk out on the tradin’ floor!!!! BRAINLESS…CLUELESS…USELESS…PERIOD!!!

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this

Camp 2 director kirknga (not a slam, promise)

I think I am in camp 2 having just read the camp post from realist at 2:49. While I do not think the camp 1 people are stupid, fans like their players w/o regard for cost, so I can live with that perspective even though I don’t agree with the keep Smith at any cost view. To me it appears that realist is in more of a 3rd camp. The higher the camp number, the less you value Smith’s contribution to the Hawks aside from any salary numbers. As a result, the acceptable offer would be highest from camp 1 and lowest from camp 3—realist.

As you kept asking me for a Smith contract number awhile back, I came to 5yr/60 mil. If you can get him for less, do it. If you can lock him up for 6yr/72 mil or less I am fine with that as well.

I also agree with the sign & trade if you cannot agree on a contract. Some asset is better than nothing.

I do differ on the impact of timing. It shows here better than it showed for Chills. I suspect, but cannot prove, that Smith would have seen an offer equal to Monta Ellis’s as a good offer around the time that Ellis’s deal became public. Now that time has dragged on and better offers for player that are roughly similar to Smith (Deng, Okafor) have come out, Ellis’s offer does not look as attractive. You now mention that it may take 12-13 mil to get Smith to sign. If that is true, then Smith’s rumored price is creeping up as more offers become public.

In a similar way, I believe that Chills would have taken an offer on July 1 similar to the one he rejected in mid-July once he had an idea of how much Olympiacos would pay him and how interested they were in having a good relationship with him.

While 2 cents doesn’t make change—that’s mine.

OLE

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

mykhalc This one is for you from the acronympho, my friend

B-CUP (brainless, clueless, useless, period) to small to get me excited!

OLE

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

i’m feelin’ a D-league championship on the way!!!

BIBBY, i feel ya your pain man!!! MALOOF bros and THEUS…now you got BASG and WOODSON. but it’s almost over man…almost over!!!

JJ…your well-paid but missionary stint in the ATL has an end in sight too!!!

EL GATO GRANDE…i’m cryin’ for ya man. you got 3 more years…3 MORE!!!!

MARVIN…go back to school bro!!!

F’n EMBARASSIN’ PEOPLE!!! RIDICULOUS!!!

couple of more signings and i can GUARANTEE the DL championship!!! BOOK IT!!!

By cp

July 29, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

A starting lineup of Pachulia, Horford, and Prince is not better than Horford, Smith, and Marvin.

By mykhalc

July 29, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this

MannyT, i like it bro!! NICE!!!LOL

By roan st

July 29, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

The sixers GM has been qouted as saying that he and Iggy’s agent are having open dialogue to get a deal done. Just a matter of time before a contract announcement will be made that Andre has signed. The hawks are officially the laughing stock of the NBA. No good player will want to come to this joke of a franchise. It’s over guys. This team is officially done. If you love basketball then you better hope you have a good college team to follow or else pick a new NBA team. If we lose smith I’m finished with this inept franchise until new ownership arrives.

By HB Ando

July 29, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Kirk, couldn’t you have saved a lot of time by pointing out that there are semantic differences between “value” and “price”? Because I don’t think anyone has been taken off track by the interchangeable use of those two terms.

And, with all due respect to your right to hold, and offer up, your subjective opinion on the state of the Hawks roster, from a projected competitive standpoint, are you seriously saying that you believe we’re in great shape, going into next season, when the sum of our changes is the deletion of Childress, and the addition of Evans and Morris? Wow, if those changes get you excited, I doubt words could describe your unbounded optimism if you were a Heat fan, and saw the addition of Beasley, or a Sixers’ fan, with Brand’s arrival, or the Bucks acquisition of Jefferson, or the Raps picking up O’Neal, or the Magic adding Pietrus.

We’ve done less, to improve our roster, than any other team in the East (if you consider the value the Knicks derived from hiring D’Antoni as their head coach).

It’s also funny how your acceptable number, for Smith’s average annual salary, just crept up to $13 million, in light of the contract terms for Okafor and the reported value of Deng’s upcoming contract.

I have no problem with justifiable optimism. But I always wonder what the real agenda is, when someone steadfastly maintains a position, despite ever-increasing evidence that there is no plausible defense for such a positive outlook.

I’m a Hawks’ fan too. Wouldn’t bother setting up house here, for the last 4 years, if I wasn’t. So I’m pretty sure that standing behind one’s team loyalty doesn’t begin to explain such homerism.

Let’s see a move that clearly makes this team better. Let’s see the ASG lock down it’s most exciting player, so the fans know they are willing to walk the walk.

Pumping up the acquisitions of Evans and Morris, who couldn’t even get on the floor in front of Jerome James, one of the biggest dogs in the history of the NBA, reeks of a secondary agenda.

So spare my a* the smoke…..

By kirknga

July 29, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Sautee

It Could. It could not.

I believe if the team wins and the Hawks make a good offer that both players will sign. I believe they value winning and money over any friendship they might have with Smith.

If the Hawks win, attendance will rise, we know that from previous winning Hawks team. If they don’t win, then people will not come out and see them.

MannyT

I would offer Bibby a salary no less than what he is making now. I don’t know how the salaries of other PG’s in the league stack up, but I certainly believe it would not be outrageous to compensate him within the top 5-6 PG’s in salary.

For his career,he’s only shooting about 44%FG and isn’t a good man defender, but he shoots .37% 3PT, gives you 16 points, 6 assists, a steal, some rebounds and has almost a 3-1 assist/turnover ratio. That last stat being key for me.

I believe the Hawks looked like a more complete team when he joined the roster.

He’s been durable until last season averaging 36 minutes a game and he is a player who can set up the last shot and will not shrink from taking it if he has to.

We saw an unhealthy Bibby last year, I expect to see a much improved Bibby, especially in a contract year. Especially with a healthy Speedy and a hopefully improved Acie. He will not want to get outplayed I would think.

So yes, that kind of money, and for 3-4 years I would say.

By Dub C

July 29, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

Offer 6yr/$66mil and call it a day. I truly think Josh will take it. Slowly, the RFA’s are being resigned by their current teams. Josh Smith should be next! Did y’all hear about Ron Artest going to Houston for basically nothing (Bobby Jackson, rookie Donte Green, and Sac’s 09 1st Round Pick). This helps Houston a lot and makes them more of a contender in the west. We didn’t have enough to offer Sac for Artest? Maybe Duck and Bibby (lol)!!

By richbrave

July 29, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

SIGN JOSH SMITH - whatever it takes. Get one up on the Braves for a change.

By kirknga

July 29, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

MannyT

In regards to the timing issue, I have said, and still say, that I do not believe that Smith would have signed for anything less than the max last season.

People keep saying that he would, ok, that is certainly plausible, I don’t deny that.

But I believe at that time, his best interest was not to sign, but to go seek his “market price”.

In any case though, we are now where we are, and for me, looking back and saying what might have been, or what should have been is of no use, but that’s me.

By doc

July 29, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

well i see aj is at game speed. 2 funny.

manny t, it doesnt stop does it?

By doc

July 29, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this

kirk, i hope you wont be disappointed if the basg decide to not sign bibby for those numbers i know i wont as that would absolutely cripple them thinking they just arent going to hand out cash and have more important properties to hold on to. i also like him but dont value him at that especially if acie is ready and speedy playing. it is also revealing how your valuation of smith creeps up to where many felt we should have started.

By AtlSouthside

July 29, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

One thing we must not forget is that Josh Smith has not proven himself to be worth “market value” 4 years in the league and how many all-star games?, how many games did he take over? I say trade him for Tayshaun Prince, and then we have a legitimate shot at the 2nd or 3rd seed in the east, with JJ, Bibby, Hortford, Marvin, and add Prince, we’ll have a deep bench and a nice starting line-up. We really dont need Josh.

By ray

July 29, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Holy….

Two camps? I didn’t know the secret squirrel treehouse club of “convential wisdom” would spawn this….LOL!

The idea of two camps…there’s just vehement disagreement on mere semantics. Sounds more like another sad attempt at fitting in when it’s just not necessary. But whatever. Looks like drama to me…

Wow. Houston got Artest at one heck of a price. The west might change up again if Yao and McGrady stay healthy. Good to see some teams making some good moves. I have to echo Astro Joe and say that my excitement about signing Evans and Morris is somewhat tempered. I’m glad we signed some guys. A shooter and a big. However, the quality of those signings is debatable in light of the need to determine and bolster the starting lineup, followed by the bench players who will actually be in the rotation.

Evans is a good pickup and I hope he shows to be a great pickup. Morris is an enigma. He is going to have to work really hard or be buried on the bench…rendering him useless to us.

By bryan

July 29, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this

hey can anyone tell me about morris? did he not get much playing time in NY?

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this

AtlSouthside

I think that’s reasonable, though the All Star angle is a point not often raised. 4 years and for the career averaging 13.6 points/ 7.4 rebounds / 2.7 assists / 2.5 blks / and 2.5 turnovers a game. Trending upwards, so $12 million is a gamble, but with a debatable level of risk.

I think getting Prince would be a start, but if we’re going if what we’re getting back is not a big, I would like Howard before Prince.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this

Great trade for the Rockets.

Artest gives them that toughness that they really lack. Where as Battier is nainly a spot up shooter, Artest can get off his own shot and has the speed to drive by people as well.

I think this puts the Rockets right there with the Spurs and Lakers as the top 3 in the West. Of course Yao and McGrady must stay healthy.

By B.A. ToDa

July 30, 2008 12:40 AM | Link to this

I wake up each morning scared just waiting to hear the sad news about what the Hawks did with Josh Smith. We’re about to get rid of a member of the 2012 USA Men’s Olympic Basketball Team. You people say trade him in for another draft pick. Draft pick? You serious, after they reach their potential we’ll be back in the Josh’s discussion from this summer.

Sad offseason for Atlanta Hawks. And did Morris even get any PT in New York?

By HB Ando

July 30, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this

It’s a huge if, but IF TMac, Yao and Artest can all stay healthy, and Ron-Ron will stay on his meds, that’s a frighteningly good core for the Rockets, especially given Adelman as the coach. That will be a fun team to watch. I’m kind of shocked at how cheap they got him, but his cap number was way low, and he’s crazy as a freakin’ loon, so……….

Kirk, I don’t think you can leave the Jazz out of that group of possible front runners.

By MrSmoot

July 30, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this

The Expert Says,,

After reading a large portion of the posts I have come to the conclusion that there are only a few of you are true Hawks Basketballs fans and the remainder are just “Josh Smith dunk lovers”.

Looking into the future if you pay Josh Smith 12-13 million dollars a year coupled with resigning Mike Bibby to a similar contract (13-15 mill). How will we resign JOe Johnson (the real architect to our postseason birth). How will we give Al Horford the Max Deal that he will absolutely deserve (unlike Josh Smith). Atlsouthside seems to be the only person who isnt thinkin about this emotionally. You cant put Josh Smith and his salary on the floor every night by himself. And lets not forget the pay 13 million a year for at best our 3rd best option who cant shoot and cant defend in man to man sets is a major stretch.

I say trade him. Let him struggle to get another team to overpay him when they see fit. Get Prince and Amir from Detroit and lets shoot to the top of the East like we are supposed to.

Can anyone remember a recent do-it-all player that ended up being worth all the money the team shelled out for him. For those of you who dont pay to much attention to real basketball here are some examples. Kenyon Martin, Andrei Kirilenko, Lamar Odom. All these guys can get you 15 ppg, 8 rbg, 3 apg a few blocks and a few steals but none of them make a major difference on their teams (kobe was definately “happy” with Lamars contribution in the Finals). Josh Smith MIGHT make a few all star games but he will never contribute like Al Horford will in a few years or like Joe Johnson is contributing right now.

Hawks Fans lets move on. Josh doesnt want to be here and we shouldnt let the contracts of veteran deserving players force us into a hole that all of you will be upset about later when we cant resign the real players that make the difference other than ONE major dunk a game.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 1:43 AM | Link to this

kirknga Thanks for filling me in on your Bibby view. I think he’ll be 31 by next summer, so I think someone might pay him 3yr/45 mil or 4yr/60 mil if he has an above average year compared to his past stats, but it’s not the ASG unless there is a major ownership shift. (Along the lines of lawsuit settled and new partner with massive bags o cash comes into Belkin slot.)

Regarding the timing question, I did not intend to take the timing view back to last summer. The timing that I meant to focus on was from May until now. In particular, starting July 1 you make a push to get things resolved. Sure the ASG plan was to have him get offers, but the team could also float some ideas and continue to discuss actively during that time. Negotiation here w/agent, text message there to player (for relationship, not to subvert agent) could have moved things along more swiftly once other deals closed. The only other comparable delay on a RFA is Iggy. However, Philly gets a pass on most of that wait because everyone should have understood that you should not do his deal until you brought in the major free agent with the available cap space.

doc I trying to understand more than to agree as I think a lot of folks are almost Seussical in their convictions.

ray I’ve got 3 camps on that Josh topic and counting. If the summer keeps going this way, I expect to see more tribes, a bunch of factions, and the rubble from the tower of Babel. It will almost be like rap/hip hop without the violence. Maybe the good folks at ancestry.com will map it all out for us ;-) I don’t know what you and Astro Joe are talking about. As soon as I saw both signings I asked about taking over Chills section of the arena. I was informed that only players could have those bannered sections. However, if ticket sales continue to slow down, the rules may change. Me and all the less fortunate kids singing ole, ole… while surrounded by very few other fans. You will know the real deal if you see a huge OLE! OLE! banner where Chills used to be! LOL

The Rockets are just one more team making moves to improve during the summer. The Sactown rebuild is in full effect. They got cash, a 6-11 rookie, Bobby Jackson to back up Benno, and another 1st round pick for a guy that would give them a 7 mil cap slot next summer. I did not expect the Hawks to make a leap forward, but the fan in me hoped for a small step forward to build on the excitement of the playoffs. Now I think my market opportunity for excitement is to work with Clyde on doomsday shirts.

bryan Don’t let these Randolph Morris stats intimidate you. Isaiah Thomas was probably holding him back ;-)

Our team has the Chicken Little Implementation Plan, CLIP, in full effect. If we don’t sign Josh, I’m sure that some experienced tweener (Othella Harrington?) will fall from the sky and take 2-3 mil/yr

OLE

By ray

July 30, 2008 1:47 AM | Link to this

I don’t understand the chatter about Josh insisting on a max contract, or him “breaking the bank.” I guess it’s a matter of belief, regardless of whether there are any facts or reports to support it. I have no reason to believe either notion has any relevancy. As for budget issues, is that a employer problem or a worker problem?

It’s easy to bring up the all-star thing with Josh Smith. You can always find and point out what somebody isn’t. But since it was brought up, let’s examine it. Just a few thoughts to consider:

1.Josh has been in the league for 4 years and is not yet an all-star.

1. Joe Johnson had the same resume when he came to Atlanta. He got $70 million dollars. Hmmmm.

3.Luol Deng has yet to make an all-star team. He’s reportedly on the verge of signing for 6 years and $71 million.

1. How about Al Jefferson? $65 million. Not an all-star yet.

5.Monta Ellis. $66 million. All-star? Nope. Not yet.

1. Mike Bibby. 10 years in the league. Good point guard. $15.25 million this year. How many all-star games?

I could go on like this for quite a while. The easy rebuttal is that we shouldn’t go out and pay Josh big cash just because everybody else is paying guys big cash. But it’s just not that easy. Here’s the common demoninator. Each of the guys listed got the contract they did because they were deemed worth the investment. All but Bibby will probably be making at least one or two all-star appearances down the road. The idea is to lock the potential all-star up, not wait until he becomes one, and then you really can’t afford him.

I’ve always maintained the stance that you trade Josh if somewhow you can come out better in the long run. I’m not seeing a trade where this is going to happen. Not yet, anyway.

We can talk until we’re blue in the face about what he can/can’t do and what he has/hasn’t done. But you see that the guys listed haven’t become this magical all-star player yet. But they’re worth something to their teams.

How many games did Josh Smith take over? Why is that a question? I thought JJ was the take over guy? But to answer the question: several. Who do you suppose was the primary and leading scorer when JJ was out with that calf injury in the season before last? Who has been the second-leading scorer all this time (since Harrington left)? Who was the leading rebounder before the wonderful Al Horford came along? You can argue it all you want, but Josh has been the second banana all this time.

Some of us believe he will be an all-star (how many times do we have to say he’s only 22). Some of us do not. It’s all good. But here’s the thing: If he’s not perceived as a guy who will be this good, then you have to find a guy who will be. Haven’t seen it yet.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 1:55 AM | Link to this

I’m placing the Rockets above the Jazz now because I believe that Artest provides the kind of toughness and skill combination that will give the Rockets the edge.

The Jazz is the hump the Rockets could not overcome in order to advance.

The Jazz out-toughed the Rockets the past two years and knocked them out of the playoffs each year. Poor point guard play was also a factor this past playoff.

With Artest, the Rockets are as good a defensive team as the Spurs, and maybe even the Lakers. They still get serviceable minutes out of Deke.

I’m still not sure if turning down Billups and Prince for McGrady was a good move by the Rockets, but they did and seemed to have recovered well.

By ray

July 30, 2008 2:02 AM | Link to this

MannyT, quit denying it. You’re the funniest guy on the blog. And I’m all out of Daily News material (I’m claiming that this is my offseason…that’s my story and I’m sticking to it).

So now anybody that wants Josh Smith to stay is not a true fan, an emotional wreck, and generally not knowledgeable about the game at all. Mr.Smoot, I’m so glad you cleared that up. By the way, are you new, a 3/4 year lurker, or just posting under a name other than the one you usually use? Either which way, welcome to the Liar’s Table. And I apologize in advance if you’ve been there all along and I didn’t see ya….

Kirk, I believe Bibby is due $15.25 million this year. I love his game (or rather what has been his game…need to see how he does), but I don’t love it for that amount per year for the next 3-4 years. Not that my opinion matters. Based on what I’ve seen from the ASG, I don’t think they are going to pay that for 16.6 points and 6 assists per game. In fact, neither was Sacramento going to do that anymore when they realized that Beno Udrih could get the job done just fine for a lot less. Of course, if Acie is somehow not able to run the team worth anything, that may change things. I still don’t see signing the guy for more cash than JJ makes….People worry about paying Josh 11 or 12 million, and it’s influence on extending JJ or paying Horford…but it’s okay to pay significantly more to a guy who’s not even an all-star (to take that angle)?

I think Josh would go for $11 million a year. He’d be foolish not to. He can sign a contract like that for as many as 6 years…and be really coming into his prime at the age of 28. Then he can get a very lucrative contract if he’s as good as some of us think he’ll be. But he can’t sign anything like that without it being offered. And I agree that the one year deal is the worst thing that could happen. I’d much rather see a trade, even an unequal (but hopefully not too unequal) trade before that happens. But I think the ASG is rebuffing all trade offers. I hope not, but it looks that way. Meanwhile, the list of RFAs that people were able to point at earlier and say “see that guy’s not signed yet either”…is getting smaller and smaller. And now bigger contracts are coming out. Not good.

By ray

July 30, 2008 2:22 AM | Link to this

Poor point guard play could continue to be a factor for the Rockets. We’ll see. But for now the toughness factor definitely goes to the Rockets now. The only question (as stated by several of us I see) will be the health of Yao and McGrady. Thing is, with Artest in the fold….if he stays focused, McGrady’s health issues are still a problem, but decidedly less of a problem.

I understand why the Kings insisted on Donte Green. He’s hot stuff, and will make a name for himself.

Manny, I’m not worried at all about Randolph Morris’s skills. He’s got ‘em. Worried about his drive and what not. If he doesn’t practice and play with some serious heat…he’s not going to do us one bit of good. He really was not in a good situation in New York. But he’s got big opportunity here. If he’s determined, then he’ll be good. If he’s not….

By ray

July 30, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this

Manny, Kirk, the more I think about it, the more I have to doubt that anybody will pay Bibby what he’s making now. Anybody could see that he was injured last year, but dude is 29. He’s not going to get better. I don’t think he’s going to be what he was back in the day when Sacramento was regularly in the playoffs.

If he was, Sacramento wouldn’t have let him go for a pile of garbage and expiring contracts (no offense to TLue).

But that’s just me…

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 2:47 AM | Link to this

MrSmoot I can assure that I am not emotionally-invested in Josh Smith and I am not one of what you call “Josh Smith dunk-lovers! Oh my now :)

MannyT

You’re right, I did think you were speaking about last season. My bad.

However, I believe what I said holds, I don’t assume his agents would have allowed him to sign before seeking a market price perhaps even one the Hawks would not have wanted to match.

I believe Bibby is worth $14-15 million, though I wouldn’t go above $16 million. I do not anticipate that there will be a large market for his services above that price point. We’ll see one way or the other.

JJ is going to command that much and a little above.

Hard decisions are always in a franchises future and the Hawks are no exception. Josh Childress leaving was one such decision. We stand now on the precipice of another with Smith. If Smith doesn’t leave, then it’s Marvin who may, may, have to go.

If the Hawks jump up and win 50 games, then I think ownership by be more inclined to pay up and pay up fastly.

I will for the moment, assume that it is the Hawks, not Smith that is the hold up here.

I believe Josh sought his market price and we now have a range from which the Hawks must should work within.

I’m all for offering Smith $11-12/million/year, $13 million if they feel he is a cornerstone, with a duration of 4-5 years.

Assuming again he will sign such a contract, I hope the Hawks will now offer such a contract because we now have market information we didn’t have previously(as far as several signings).

If not, then I’m with Mr.Smoot and let’s move on with the sign and trade now and not later. If nothing else, I’d rather have people start their grieving process over his loss to another team with 3 months to go before the season, rather than a a month.

By Eric

July 30, 2008 3:10 AM | Link to this

MESSAGE TO RICK SUND, YOU SAID YOU WOULD SIGN BOTH THE JOSHES. YOU’VE FOOLED AROUND TILL CHILLS LEFT THE COUNTRY. NOW YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE NOT TO GIVE JOSH SMITH WHAT EVER HE WANTS. YOU’VE SAT AROUND AND LET THE REST OF THE LEAGUE SET THE MARKET VALUE FOR YOU, OKAFOR 72 MILLION AND BIEDRINS 62 MILLION. JOSH IS BETTER THAN BOTH THOSE PLAYERS, HE AVERAGES MORE POINTS AND BLOCKS. THE SIGN AND TRADE RUMORS ARE INSANE, TAKE MY ADVISE SAVE THE FRANCHISE LOCK JOSH DOWN NOW.

By ray

July 30, 2008 3:10 AM | Link to this

No need to grieve if we get better by trading Smoove. Always been my stance. Even when I was getting flamed for it a couple of years ago.

If we don’t get better, or worst case scenario develops (we end up with him for one year on the qualifying offer), then it won’t be him we whine about. It’ll be the situation and the team.

People like to call it emotionality. Everybody’s got their passion for something. Again, call it emotional or not: either we sign Smith, who I think is very good for the team, or we get something comparable in return. Doesn’t get any more stoic than that.

By IndyHoosiers

July 30, 2008 3:36 AM | Link to this

ray ray baby, kirknga ain’t goin’ talk to you. you were a meanie and he’s still lickin’ his wounds. give it up baby you can’t make up and be friends wit’ everybody.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 30, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

Here’s my thoughts on the Morris and Evans signing: They are both good signings if, and only if, Smith is resigned - or an equal talent is acquired via sign and trade - AND a player of similar ilk to Childress is also acquired.

This was a 37 win team last year, whose biggest end-of-the-season weakness was a bench that was two serviceable players deep.

So far, the Hawks have lost their 6th man and acquired players that would be the 7/8th (Evans) and 13/14(Morris).

IF and only IF Claxton is healthy, then he does had depth, but at a duplicate position to Law who was at the 8/9 slot last year.

The team still lacks quality bigs and shooters. I do think Luke Jackson could help this team off the bench, but even if healthy, he’s not a top rotational guy. But an experienced big man, off the bench, who can play defense, is still MIA.

For all these blog argument about player development and acquisition, the sad reality is that this team - even with Smith/New Player - will at best be fighting for the last play-off spot in the much-improving East.

By Ken Strickland

July 30, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

I made this analogy once before, and the SAASG has totally justified it’s meaning.

THE SAASG IS LIKE A HUNGRY EAGLE, SITTING ON A LIMB, TOO LAZY, STUPID AND INEXPERIENCED TO KILL SOMETHING. SO, IT JUST SITS THERE WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO COME ALONG AND KILL ITSELF. ENOUGH SAID.

I’m going to be out of town until next week, and won’t be able to post. So, let’s all hope the SAASG gets a fire up it’s collective butts(it will probably take a blow torch) and does something positive, or just something, period.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 30, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

The back and forth here has been some of the best we’ve had in the four years this blog has been in existence, so I don’t want to get in the way of that passionate discourse. But …

I take offense to the divide and conquer tactics employed by some (we’re family here, dysfunctional sometimes but family for sure). There are no camps here. This is one big camp of hoops heads and we’ve agreed to disagree many times before. There’s nothing novel about that.

What I can tell you is that for all of our bluster about what should, could or would be done in regards to the Hawks and a conclusion (good or bad) to this Josh Smith saga, there is nothing.

They’re not even talking right now about negotiating anything. The Hawks have made clear where they are ($9 million a year is the only formal offer that’s ever been made) and the Smith camp has made clear where they are (more than that but certainly less than the max).

The real question is where do we go from here?

I’m out of easy answers.

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

I don’t understand bloggers. If the ASG isn’t going to or hasn’t the finances to sign JOSH SMITH, then how could they sign someone like BARGNANI?

RAY:

Here’s my passion. BIBBY. BIBBY?!! He was beaten in the playoffs like a rented mule. Anytime the CELTICS wanted to out his passing or scoring, they put RONDO or PIERCE or both on him and he disappeared. 15.25 million? If you can’t sign SMITH for that amount why would you do it with BIBBY? Get what you can and cut him loose. Free up money to resign SMITH. Start over at PG with LAW.

By Aaron B

July 30, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

I’ve posted my thoughts on the matter and ty Sekou for the poll. If the Spirit ownership really wanted to be in touch with fans that poll should give them an idea of how we feel. Josh Smith is our newest franchise player, and he is only 22. The upside he can bring us is phenomenal. This is a no-brainer in my book.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this

WHOLE! (Woeful Hawks Ownership Lowers Expectation)

Thanks, Manny.

Sekou

So, for now, it is just a silly stare-down by both sides. And meanwhile, all the affordable help is flying to other perches.

Good business strategy. Save a dollar here, and have no one to spend it on, once you’ve saved it.

Does anyone here think that this approach will get us over 37 games, much less back into the playoffs?

Well, I can imagine a couple that might. ;-)

By doc

July 30, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

if speedy come back the reality of it is the hawks lost on a gamble for short term dividends of the playoffs and lose chills and possibly smith. chuck dead on bro. the team as is even with smith is weaker. the team to make a splash needed to bring in no less than evans and brown and have done nothing to really reinforce the team as it was last year. bibby in the long run is going to cost us unless he plays like two men for the whole season and huge task and burden, unfortunately the catch 22 if he does 2 roster players dont get utilized. as is with josh smith 29 to 34 wins.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 30, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

richbrave -

good to see you back - hope you are recovering quickly. your voice has been missed here and on the braves side as well.

By khao$

July 30, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

The idea that they are not even NEGOTIATING is troublesome to me. This ownership group is cheap and clueless. They clearly have no idea about the feelings of this fanbase, that was starting to embrace this team after it overachieved in the playoffs. The only way Josh Smith can leave this city, without some type of backlash, is if the team receives comparable or all-star talent in return. If we all live in reality, that will be VERY hard to do via sign and trade.

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this

Sekou, i’m like you man. What’s next?!?! What are we trying to do with Smith? Have we already givin up on him and just looking to deal him somewhere? Tell the truth, i’ve already lost faith in this franchise resigning him… I just don’t see it happening, and I hate to say that.

Like someone stated earlier, Josh Smith is our 2nd leading everything. We lose him, we lose our second leading scorer, rebounder, and main shot blocker. It’ll hurt us more than people say to just replace him will.

By Ben

July 30, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

9 million a year for Smoove?

LOL!

These morons are clueless

By doc

July 30, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

ben, i think you have gotten it.

By UK

July 30, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

I checked out the USA Basketball roster and saw Prince but no Smoove. Hmm….

By Aaron B

July 30, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

When management decides to pull theirs heads out of their _sses then we’ll be able to actually concentrate on whats next for our beloved basketball team.

Hey Sekou, are you gonna show them the polls?

By RayS

July 30, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Sekou:

Do you mean a average of 9 million a year (ie. 9 x 6 = 54 million total)? Or starting at 9, with 1 million increases per year ( 9. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 = 69 million total)! I think that the 69 million offer would be in line with what others have received and would be a great deal!

By ????

July 30, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

“Kirknga” Josh Smith isn’t worth 11 or 12 million but you would pay Mike Bibby 14 or 15 million. IF you are Mr. Fiscal Conservative with Smith how could you pay Bibby that amount. It can’t be based on his statistics because Smith was better. Also Bibby has not been a top 5 pg for years. Here is proof: Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, Jose Calderon, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo(proved it in the playoffs). I can also argue for Kirk Hinrich, Mo Williams and Raymond Felton. Yet you would pay him $14 million. HE WAS TERRIBLE IN THE PLAYOFFS.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 30, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Realist …….hmmmmmmmm,good post i see where u are going but no. Josh Smith’s market value should fall some where between Bogut and Okafor. Okafor is 6’9 at best, Injured/misses games every year,no real offense to speak of.

If I had to line up Okafor,Beanz,Monte, Josh and select one player…… It would be Josh without hesitation and Monte coming in a very close second.

Terrell-if the rumor is true….. the NO package does’nt sound bad Peja and J.wright would be good compensation for losing Josh.

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Josh Smith already has proved himself. And he’s the youngest out of the restricted free agents (Monta may be the same age). And if we’re only going by $9 a year, these guys are clueless.

Yo UK, i said Josh Smith on the 2012 Men’s Olympic team. I like Tayshaun, cause Kentucky was my squad for college ball, but you guys can’t be for real if you’re getting excited if he’s all we’re getting.

By Clyde

July 30, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

And The Beat Goes On.

The sports scene in Atlanta has gone to hell. With all this stuff going on with the Hawks and the Braves waving the white flag, it put a crazy thought in my head. Can The Falcons suprise us all, make the playoffs and light a spark under the fans in Atanta? Yes! Then I came off my high.

Atlanta get ready for Alabama-Clemson Aug. 30th. The Crimson Tide Returns to The Dome. Its been a decade but we’re coming back. I hope JSmooth gets signed by then.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 30, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

An average of $9 (like 5-for-$45 million or 6-for-$54 if you will).

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

The only package i liked was that Marcus Camby and Al Thornton. And i don’t even think that was real or logical. Why can’t we just throw in an extra million? Josh Smith is more important to this franchise than Mike Bibby is right now and for the future. Don’t get me wrong, Mike Bibby is my dude tho. And the market is set for Smith, so just go ahead and pay him if they really want him. Right now i don’t think these guys really want Smith on this team or if they even care.

Some team will probably win ang get Josh Smith for the low, and we’ll be looking like fools once again.

By roan st

July 30, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

SEKOU, has there been a trial date set for the belkin and asg lawsuit. For christ sake can they not speed up this process to resolve this damn mess and get a final resolution? Stern is an absolute POS in my opinion for sitting back and doing nothing. Seems to me he could have put pressure on both sides to seek out an arbitration type ruling. No way the NFL would allow this fiasco to happen because they care to much about their overall image and product. Stern can go straight to hell as far as I’m concerned. No way he would allow this to happen to one of the golden franchises in the league.

By Bottom Line

July 30, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

The Hawks franchise is ruined. The only way we will EVER have a team is to get rid of the ASG. How can we accomplish this? Simple. HIT THEM WHERE IT HURTS I understand that some loyal misguided fans still want to go to the games and support the players and the city. PLEASE DON”T… Spending any money whatsoever with this franchise right now is simply supporting the owners’ idiotic policies. The only way to get rid of the owners is to not spend one dime. So please fans, DO NOT GO TO ANY GAMES…DO NOT BUY ANY TICKETS….DO NOT SUPPORT THIS TEAM IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.WE MUST FORCE THE ASG TO SELL THROUGH ECONOMIC BOYCOTT IT WILL HURT BUT IT MUST BE DONE. THANK YOU.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 30, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

roan st., according to David Stern the entire ownership affair is scheduled for a February conclusion. That was the date he gave during the playoffs.

By Top Line

July 30, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

Bottom Line - how can you call loyal fans “misguided”? If there were more “misguided” season ticket holders like myself, maybe the ASG COULD afford to keep someone like Josh Smith. So if you want to support a franchise long-term, I suggest you and your friends go pony up some of your money instead of griping about how they won’t pay Josh Smith when all you’ve done is go to 2 games and sat in the $10 seats. Maybe you moved down to the lower level when the usher wasn’t looking - I don’t know

By #1 Priority = Joshes

July 30, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

My brain is hurting from trying to rationalize why some of you think we should resign Bibby for 15M and let Smoove walk. Do you honestly think Bibby will outperform Smoove over the next 4yrs??? Not a chance. Bibby is on the downslope and Josh is just getting started.

I would say don’t screw this up BASG, but it sounds like they already have. If we don’t resign Josh…..how much does the NBA Pass cost?

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Sautee Launching your own spin offs and taking it to a WHOLE new level ;-)

Mr. Smoot The stat fillers are usually great players. Check out the NBA triple double lists and you mostly see great players. Grant Hill lost his prime years to injuries. JKidd is still in the league, so I’ll say he was a do everything guy that lived up to pay and expectations when the Nets went to the NBA Finals. Now that he’s older and B Scott is not his coach, he’s had less success. Nevertheless, the weakest part of his game is shooting, but he has lived up to expectations. The other tricky part about multi faceted players is that they need a coach that exploits the mismatches well. Especially true when you look at the typical break down of the NBA team hierarchy. 1-Stars, 2-role players, 3-filler. The multi faceted player usually falls above role player and below star. Many teams have a hard time getting the most out of these guys.

Coming back to Bibby and kirknga I think ASG cannot pay Bibby more than Smith (if he returns.) You also mentioned a 12-13 mil salary range for Smith. While I get what you’re saying it doesn’t look like the ASG has any interest in going that high at this time.

Adding ray into the response…(your funnier, I just grab a lucky chuckle) While I don’t see Bibby getting his next contract from the Hawks, I can see someone scooping him up after losing a key backcourt player next summer. If this had been his free agent year, Golden State may have swooped him up after Baron D. took his empire to SoCal. I don’t know if they would have felt enough pressure to pay him 15 mil/yr, but he would have been on their radar. I could also see Cleveland making a run at Bibby to make LeBron happy.

In the playoffs we learned that Rocky has ties to the country of Georgia (Zaza). Maybe some rough practice sessions against Zaza will turn Mr. Randolph Morris into RANDMO! Because if yuor relying on the BWAF to get some drive out of the guy, I’d lay odds that you have a much better chance spiking his water bottle with ex-lax.

richbrave Bargnani does not get to RFA until summer 2010. His salary is lower than Marvin’s. Given that he was a #1 pick, he may want to chat with his agent to get an explanation on that deal.

Sekou You are 5A in my book (Ann Arbor’s Amazing Athletics Articulator) BUT people like to be seen as a little different. I agree with you that we all come around the Liar’s Table in the name of HoopsLove. However, most carve out unique space within the community. At least for me, it’s ok that someone has a different opinion that doesn’t mesh with mine. As long as there is some civility, it will work out, just like family. (Compared to some of the other AJC blogs where they have nasty feudal fiefdoms, we electronically have different tents but like the same campground.) Maybe camps wasn’t the best wording for it, but there are clearly differences of opinion on the Smith situation. It’s the same way that people identify themselves by differences instead of the universal commonality that we have—Earthlings.

Bottom Line I’m already a season ticket holder. The best I’ll do is protest. Anyone need an extra glove?

OLE

By Angry Fan

July 30, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Sekou K. Smith can you ask junior and the rest of the asg boys to turn on their CPUs and blog live with us?! Might be interesting and informative for them.

I hear ya, Bottom Line. I am taking the same stance. ASG is crippling OUR team. HAWKS FANS, MAKE SOME NOISE!

By Bottom Line

July 30, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

So lets see Top Line… According to your logic if a corporation is failing we should buy more and more stock at higher and higher prices so the management could then eventually put a quality product on the market? I have some business OPPORTUNITIES I would like to discuss with you…LOLOL… The obvious solution is to change management. Ask some of your more astute business associates down there in the front row.

By Bottom Line

July 30, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Hmmm…I think Top Line sounds suspiciosly like a card carrying member of the ASG.

By randy

July 30, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

Do the Hawks not have 11 million of salary space for this season to offer Smith. I mean you know Bibby will be gone if Law makes progress this season. ASG have so many loose ends, we haven’t even addressed Joe Johnson’s expiring contract. To not budge for so long off a specific number, they must be about bankrupt.

By Chill Speaks

July 30, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

790 the Zone is playing cuts from an interview with JChill. Pretty straight forward and blunt. Can’t wait to hear the whole thing.

The whole interview will be played tomorrow morning at 8:20. He says he was only offered 5yr/33million and had sign and trade offers for well above that and starting roles offered. But we all know he really is a starter, we just had him on the bench so the #2 bust, I mean pick, could look like he is a starter.

By nique

July 30, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

$9 million a year?!?!

Sekou, is it true that Barbosa was offered for Childress?

By nique

July 30, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

why didn’t the hawks pull the trigger on a sign and trade for chillz?

By Kevin Willis

July 30, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

CHILLS, did anyone else see this? It’s off the rumor mill on the CNN/SI page. The Suns confirmed a report that the Suns did make inquiries about a possible sign-and-trade deal with the Atlanta Hawks for Josh Childress before he decided to leave the NBA and sign a deal in Greece. The Suns did have the $8 million trade exception from the Kurt Thomas trade with Seattle to work with (which expired on July 21), but the deal almost certainly would have included either Leandro Barbosa or Boris Diaw in an attempt to balance the contract and keep the Suns from taking a further luxury tax hit Sekou can you confirm what the Suns were actually offering the Hawks? If this is true the ASG SUCKS worse than originally thought. Getting Diaw and Barbosa wouldn’t be the greatest, but it would’ve been better than NOTHING and we could’ve opened up the offense. Of course that would require getting rid of WOODY, Sunds first mistake of his tenure. Lord please help us.

By OhNaw

July 30, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

“Chills” is an intellectual scrub. In greece is where he belongs.We didn’t hear about no offer sheets he signed so where all these high offers he’s tallking about?y’all talking about Diaw again? Y’all stupid. And Barbosa, where he goin to play?

By mykhalc

July 30, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

see this is some of the stuff that kills me on here…why and what in the world would lead ANYONE to think DIAW would play for WOODSON or ATL again???? first of all, i would NOT take him back in a trade that included BARBOSA. so i don’t blame SUND if that was the case. now i would talk about BARBOSA but DIAW!!??? can you say unproductive with a fat contract??? i can!!!

By wordsmithtom

July 30, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Morris might be a project, but few big men come into the league complete. I take one look at his pix and see for myself that he is a BIG MAN. If he has his head on tight, and he listens to Big Al, then he might turn into a stud. Maybe he motivates ZZ.

I will miss Chills, but he did not have size, he had no shot, and he had bad feet. He was one injury away from the exit.

Sign Smith Get things on the road.

44 wins if we do….maybe more

By Hawksville Resident

July 30, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Bottom Line.. You know by sitting at home and watching the Hawks on TV, you’re still helping them sell advertising by boosting the ratings. So like it or not you’re a supporter.. And If you don’t go to games or watch them on TV, why are you here? You don’t watch the Hawks so what really do you have to contribute to this conversation?

By doc

July 30, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

diaw is making 8 mil a year now why would we want him if we wont even pay chills. barbosa is not even close to the type of player that would or could fit in woody’s “scheme”.

By Kevin Willis

July 30, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

Lol, y’all?? NICE. Right, because just losing a former 6th overall pick for nothing is good business?? Barbosa can play 1, 2 or 3. Diaw does have a big contract, but lets be realistic, the ASG isn’t going to spend that money on anyone anyway!!! I’m not saying either of those guys are fantastic. I certainly would’ve taken Barbosa and a pick for Chills. At least you get something as opposed to just letting him walk.

By nique

July 30, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

ohnaw, thanks for the valuable insight. i’d take barbosa over nothing plus a salary cap hit, wouldn’t you? plus if you got barbosa, you could trade bibby (which we all know is going to happen this year anyway) for a big.

By Kevin Willis

July 30, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Let me guess OhNaw and mykhalc you both think Evans and Morris are studs and are going be good replacements for the Josh’s? ahahhahhahahahaha. Diaw and Barbosa are both much, much better than those two clowns. Lol, I bet you guys are upset that Kwame signed with the Pistons instead of the hawks, because we can always us another big with no hands or touch, defends well, meaning he fouls out a lot. ahhahahhahahha. You guys are right, just let everyone walk with no compensation. That will get this franchise where it needs to be. ahahahahhah

By CRobinson

July 30, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

I look at it this way. It’s easy to spend some other guys money. ASG and their management seem to think Smith’s value is somewhere around 9-10 mill a year. So guess what? That’s their right. They’ve had him under viewing for his whole career. Why should they let some other team tell them what he’s worth to them? 2 teams could have made Smith lucrative offers this year. Each one for all the strong talk chose another direction. It’s easy to say we were going to pay you 13 million a year after the fact when no one can call your bluff. If the Atlanta offer is so out of whack why wouldn’t Smith’s agents/ or chillz agents be able to convince the other teams the Hawks wouldn’t match the offer sheet?

By nique

July 30, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

from my understanding you don’t contribute to ratings unless you have one of those neilson boxes. isn’t that how they estimate ratings?

so unless you have a box you can feel free to watch the hawks without helping this ownership, although i don’t know if i’ll continue to waste my time caring about this team or ownership after they find a way to lose smith.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

MannyT

I look at it this way. Bibby plays a position on the team that is critical. He plays a position that no other on the roster can play as well. And most importantly, and I haven’t seen any dispute this(though I’m sure there will be some now) Bibby is one of thee top 6-7 in the NBA at his position.

Josh Smith is not. So that is why I would not offer him as much. Smith also plays a position where he is replaceable, by Horford, a player I believe will be more important to the team.

I agree, it looks as if the Hawks have established a market value(I’m using this term, not semantically, but definitionally per my 9:35pm post) for Smith and aren’t budging from it.

Though things could change, it appears at this time that they do not value Smith as highly as many do here on the blog.

Which leads me to what Sekou said, and I’m afraid is not apparent. There are two camps, on this blog when it comes to Josh Smith. One the overwhelming majority for whom Josh Smith is a young gifted and talented player on the upswing and very very important to the future of the Hawks and the other camp that sees Josh Smith as good but will never be great and so is expendable.

One camp is the entrenched establishment, the other outmanned and reduced to insurgency.Such is the evolution and nature of the Hawks blog. No judgments as to good or bad, but there are two camps when it comes to Josh Smith.

??? (or whoever you are)

Who said I’m a “fiscal conservative” I say pay people. I just disagree that Josh Smith should be paid as much as some suggest. But if the Hawks want to keep him, I say pay him his 12-13 million and be done with it.

I personally wouldn’t pay him more than $11 million.

As for Bibby, as I explained to MannyT, I believe Bibby is still among the best at his position in the NBA and should be paid accordingly. I do not believe the same with Smith. Doesn’t mean he can’t get there, but I’m saying he’s not there now after 4 years, yes he’s young, but he’s played(not sat on the bench) in the league for 4 years already. I don’t see him becoming appreciably better after for years.

By Frustrated Fan

July 30, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

All ur arguments are going in circles. Smith isn’t signed, the Hawks ownership is cheap, The team isn’t even negotiating, etc, etc, etc. Just be patient and wait for an update. It seems some of you have no life and want to feel important by taking stabs at others when you make no sense. Then there are others who neve rblog and just write and only read the comments at the bottom of the page when ppl have been back and forth for over 24 hours. Patience! Just chill…

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Dre Dre, it’s Horford, not Hartford. Geesh!

By Hawksville Resident

July 30, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Hey Nique.. You’re right about Neilson. I stand corrected. If you hate the ownership you can watch it from home without supporting the BASG. But don’t cheer to loud, because bottom line will get you. ha

By mykhalc

July 30, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

Willis, i’d much rather have you back on the team!!!LOL man, you need look NO FURTHER than this thread to see how i feel about what’s goin’ on. don’t confuse things!!! i hear what ya sayin’ but DIAW ain’t the answer to NOTHIN’ but a trivia question!!!

By Bottom Line

July 30, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Hawksville Resident I am not boosting the ratings if I do not have a feedback box on my TV. I am here because I care about the Hawks. I have the vision to know that all of this talk about how they can improve is totally pointless unless we first get rid of the ASG. I am a native Atlantan unlike most participants on this site. YOU? I know it hurts, but the only way to get rid of the ASG/improve the Hawks is to make them (ASG) sell the team. Why would the ASG want to improve the Hawks? They can put the cheapest possible product on the floor and still get rich. Why? Because a bunch of you will still pay money to see it….they have absolutely no incentive to improve the team

By nique

July 30, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

kirknga, Bibby is too inconsistent to play such an important position and be paid as much as he is. I’d much rather have Smith than Bibby. Can you imagine how many more points the Hawks would give up per game without Smith?

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

COG’s finest, Yao and McGrady CANT STAY HEALTHY. You know that. Bad back + bad knees = DISAPPOINTMENT.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

COG’s finest, Yao and McGrady CANT STAY HEALTHY. You know that. Bad back + bad feet = DISAPPOINTMENT.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

nique

I acknowledged that Bibby for his career is shooting 44% and is not a good man defender. However he’s giving you 16 points, over 6 assists, and has a 3/1 assist to turnover ratio. Oh, and shoots 37% 3PT.

Like I said, he’s in the top 6-7 at his position so pay him. Same with JJ. Smith is not there, at least not yet.

Frustrated Fan

I agree, almost all of the arguments do seem to be going around in circles at this point and Smith is unsigned.

Now that we have other FRA’s signed, I believe ASG has enough information to act, and act soon.

By RealSquawk

July 30, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Okay so Loul Deng is getting something at about the 80 mil range which is ridiculous, but that was what they were willing to pay him.

this definitely puts more fire in Smiths camp.

I think it is interesting to see how the market is dictated by restricted free agents an free agents each year.

The year Dwayne Wade and Lebron JAmes, and Carmelo Anthony. were all free agents they all signed to contracts that did not lock them up long term and took less money that way.

In this restricted free agency period the restricted free agents are all asking for the a long term commitment right now.

(this statement being said outside of the fact that market value is determined by how much someone is willing to pay)

By Peter (2)

July 30, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

Could be wrong but won’t this be the second consecutive year that JJ has asked for something and been shut out? See ya’ later Joe.

By Frustrated Fan

July 30, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Waah, waaah! Where’s my pacifier? Waaah, waaah. Where’s my mommy? Waaah, waaah, waaah!! I don’t talk to strangers. There are people posting here who never even blog. What should I do? Waaah, waaah, waaaah!! I want my mommy.

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

kirknga, i kind of see where you coming from. But i’ll compare your opinions to that of the ASG mindset of our roster. Bibby is a quality PG that we need. But you got to look into the future of the ball club, Smith is the Present and the Future. Smith can be replaced with Horford at the 4? Who’s gonna replace Horford at the 5 then? And Horford himself said that he’s fine playing Center and enjoys being on court alongside with Smith. Here comes the old saying- “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. So why play around and try and find replacements for each other/position?

By travis

July 30, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

not to come to asg defense, but are there any business owners out there?

the asg are in the middle of litigation and have been for 2yrs with no end in site.

they are still tryin’ to run the business, while in the middle of this!!

watchin’ your dollars and sense is ever most critical at this point.

now, if the hawks were free and clear and makin’ these bone head decision, i would really be scratchin’ my head.

there is a metaphorical hole in the boat, they are bailin’ water and still sailin’ at the same time.

By ray

July 30, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Chuck, sounds spot-on to me.

I.Mus, not that this is here nor there, but Okafor and Horford measured out to the exact same height with and without shoes according to the draft combine. Okafor has a little bit bigger wingspan and standing reach. Isn’t that something?

RichBrave, I agree with that point. I concede the idea that Bibby was injured, but…and correct me if I’m wrong here…wasn’t it his thumb?? I can see a bad thumb screwing a bit with your dribble or your shot. But dude couldn’t keep up.

And here’s another point: Bibby was best in Rick Adelman’s high octane offense. Woody’s offense is nothing like this and will not allow him to be as productive. Again, he’s not an all-star, a point that certain Josh Smith detractors seem to want to forget in their ardent support of Bibby. I think Bibby was indeed one of the top 6-7 pgs a few years back. If he still was, why would Sacramento have let him go so easily? That’s another point some people don’t want to address (because they can’t without sounding ignorant). And no way would I pay him that kind of money for even less production than he’s given in the past.

I like the guy. But NO. There are cheaper and younger alternatives, not that the Hawks are pursuing those right now (and they should have been). We didn’t snatch Bibby. Sacramento dumped him…and more specifically his contract. You can’t tell me we would’ve picked Bibby up if his contract wasn’t expiring. If he’d have had two or more years left after this past season, there’s no way we would’ve gotten him because we wouldn’t pay that kind of price. That in and of itself is telling.

Besides, when talking about Bibby and Josh, we’re talking a player on the way down, and a player on the way up. And neither has the all-star tag attached. Huh.

MannyT, first of all the “camp” stuff doesn’t include you. You didn’t come up with the term, and your use of it is entirely different from others. I seriously doubt that anyone sees you in a negative light. Besides, you have a credible niche: you’re a triple threat between knowing the NBA numbers and business facts game way better than just about all of us, your mastery of acronyms, and your humor. Some people’s only carved niche is…well, you’ve seen what it is. Getting past that (though it won’t go away…hell, I preferred Casey)…

I think Cleveland would be a trade partner to consider when it comes time to move Bibby. ASG isn’t going to pay to keep this dude on, and unless they come up with that kind of money, what’s his motivation for staying anyway? I don’t know what cleveland would have that we want though. Didn’t look into it that far yet.

Sekou’s Right. The divide and conquer tactics are not appreciated. All these years and there has been no such mention of “camps” regardless of the level of disagreement on various topics. This dang near villainous attempt at dramatics is silly, but I see it has continued even today. It’s not difference of opinion that sullies the blog, it’s things like this…and Sekou has never come on here to address it before. That’s telling. I guess it’s “I don’t want to join them, so I’ll try to beat them” the whole while trying to climb up a non-existant cross so as to play the “victim.” Ridiculous. Overly dramatic. Useless. But continued. Sorry, but we will not be assimilated. That only happens on Star Trek.

By ray

July 30, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Exactly, B.AToDa. Bibby is a quality pg. But he’s not the future here. Josh is part of that future. And you’re absolutely right: lose Smith and we do what at the 4?

The best case scenario (if say, we got prince for Smith) is to move Zaza back to the 5 (see, this is already getting bad), Horford to the 4, Prince to the 3, and Marvin to the bench. Has our lineup gotten better? Only if you think Prince is better than Smith any day of the week.

Again, Smith “ain’t there yet” is a common theme amongst a select few. I think most people are looking at the obvious: dude is 22. Only the biggest and brightest stars are in the top 6-7 of their positions at that age. And those guys are few and far between. How many of the young RFAs that have been signed or are about to be signed are in the top 6-7 guys in their position? Exactly…

But since it’s a repeated sentiment, let’s do this: who are the top 6-7 at teach position? I’d like to see some answers at that. I don’t think you’ll find Bibby making the cut anymore than Josh will. And Josh is a unique talent. The funny thing about Josh is that you first have to define which position he really is….but that was an argument for all of last year…

RealSquawk, that’s the hazard of letting the market determine everything. Is Deng better than Smith? Is he more valuable to his team than Smith is to ours? We’ve already let one player in our permanent rotation go for lack of timely effort. Are we going to lose another because that same lack of effort will merge with lack of funds?

Frustrated Fan, LOL!

By ?????

July 30, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

“Kirknga” Please name the 7pg that Bibby is better than on the list than I gave u.

By doc

July 30, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

i would prefer to stay out of this whole camp business. i would rather stay at the ritz-carlton on some far away isle. can still blog from there right?

would someone make a reservation for sund and the rest of the BASG to stay at a holiday inn express so we can move on with our summer? i think they need some smarts ….. or money.

yup travis they are but they continue to give us this pablum of, it is otherwise. this summer let’s everyone know that they arent ready for prime time yet.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

kirknga I’m sure that I have a camp, but my opinion on the Smith thing isn’t that different from yours. If he is offered 11-12 mil/yr and refuses it, do the sign & trade. The sticky part is that there’s no indication that he was offered any more than 9 mil/yr.

If the ASG wants to dance around and work their way up the salary ladder in hopes of getting him signed for less, then both sides have to talk. According to Sekou, this is not happening.

No talks equates to a stalemate with bad feelings. If it stays that way, I think the ASG will take more of a hit in the long run because they will need to sign decent free agents some day. The ASG negotiating reputation that is building, does not help in those future efforts.

OLE

By nique

July 30, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

kirknga,

bibby’s more like 14 and 6 over the last three seasons. and he’s missed at least 38 games in each of those seasons. to me, that’s not a defense for any decrease in his numbers from his better years, instead it’s evidence of his decrease in value.

did you see him in the playoffs? the guy was a huge liability on the floor. i can’t remember thinking the same about josh smith. he was one of the guys carrying the team against arguably the best player on the floor (KG).

check out bibby’s stat line for game 7 (2pts, 2assts and 1 turnover).

By mykhalc

July 30, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

this is what i know…BAD BUSINESS DOES GET PERSONAL…PERIOD!!!!

By mykhalc

July 30, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

this is what i know…BAD BUSINESS DOES GET PERSONAL…PERIOD!!!!

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

Question for everyone who thinks we should lock Smoove up long term for 65 to 70 mill bones: If Horford is our so called PF of the future, where does this leave Smoove? SF? Are you serious? He does’nt have SF skills. Or are you guys willing to let him develop as a SF for a few more years? Under WOODY, may I add. Things such as his shot, man on man D, etc.. Our SF needs to be able to open up the floor for JJ and Bibby, if we want to be successful. Can Josh Smith do that? Not right now, IN MY OPINION. Dont get me wrong, I love Josh Smith, but the ASG has to be CAREFUL. This signing could MAKE or BREAK this franchise. The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason, I’m not crying over him not being signed yet, is because I see him as a PF, and I think Woody and the ASG does too. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m not. If Duck had his athleticism, and Smoove had Ducks shot, we’d have one of the best SF’s in the game. But that’s not the case. Maybe we can join them together or something and name him Mosh Silliams. lol!

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Some1 from the Hawks organization needs to simply tell us if they’re interested in getting a “deal done” with Smith. Look at the days before Okafur got signed, their management was “looking forward to getting a deal done”. Same thing with Deng 2 days ago- “Bulls on verge to get 6yr deal done”. I need to hear some kind of positive information. It doesn’t even have to be positive. Just let me know if we’re looking to ship Smith or to work out a contract with him. Because right now, no one knows which one it is.

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

chuckw/deadjournalist:

Thanks for the props. A boost when needed. Slowly on the mend. Back in fine fettle by next spring. I’ll post when Carroll Rogers writes. Look at Jeff Shultz’s current column for my post on the present situation regarding the Braves. I still post with the Chop Chick.

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

ray:

Yours of 4:05 p.m. Rightous as usual. SIGN SMITH WHATEVER IT TAKES.

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

I don’t see us signing him making or breaking our franchise. Our franchise has been in a “make-or-brake” state since I could count by two’s. I see it as a make-or-break if we Lose Smith and get Nothing in return(which is the more likely scenario). And Smith is looked at as a 4 in this league, well on our team atleast. And like i stated earlier, Horford’s said he doesn’t mind playing Center so it works out well. Plus it not that many dominant Centers in this league to even stress about it.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Interesting read: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9629

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

B.A.ToDa

Not everyone sees Josh Smith in the same light…thus the two camps.

It is in evidence today at it’s most glorious.

Not everyone sees Bibby in the same light…likewise.

People disagree on players who aren’t consensus superstars all the time, should be no big deal.

??? or whover,

I missed that list sorry.

Let me tell you who Bibby is better than right now… Acie and Speedy. For me, it’s about what the Hawks have first, before I consider other teams.

If Acie can play the point better than Bibby, then Bibby is expendable, I’ve said that should be considered in when deciding whether to retain Bibby or not. That seems to be missing in the bombast from those who are obsessed with my comments about Bibby and in general. :)

But until Acie can assume the lead role, convincingly, I believe reupping Bibby is critical.

I’ve allowed that Bibby is not among the top 5 PG’s, but just outside of it. I based it on career numbers, and what I’ve seen of him on the court.

As for Horford, I believe he can be even better playing the 4 alongside an adequate 5. I never said he wasn’t good at 5.

I’ve given the reasons why I hold the opinion I do, if you and others don’t agree, well no surprise, and no problem for me.

No need to go round and round.

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Manny T:

Bargnani thinks in terms of Euros. Thats a 45%+ premium on the dollar. He stashes the bucks in a Swiss Bank and buys Euro or Dollar futures based on which way he thinks the economic wind will blow. Why else would he take that contract at #1.?

By Ashe

July 30, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

Loosing Chill kind of hurt. And now I don’t know if JSmooth will be with the team. Honest to god I think that we should set up a petition to David Stern and be like “Who would buy season tickets to the game is the ownership of the hawks was changed.” I was hoping that Avery would be coaching this team instead of woodson. But, I do understand that he had his hands tied. I just don’t think that the hawks will be better this fall. They had not been in the market to upgrade their team, haven’t tried to keep their existing talent. But, the owners know about basketball so everything “should be ok?” Ok I have a theme park for sale for cheap too. The “group” should learn from their past mistakes. Get a person to run the team. Leave it alone and just sign over the checks. If you hired someone who you have to check up on every 5 min. Then that’s your fault. I think that the hawks should lower their prices to development league prices. If you are going to put something on the court that looks like development then why should people fork out the money to come watch it.

Ashe

By B.A.ToDa

July 30, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

“committing major dollars to a team that won just 37 games last season.” I hate hearing people say that. Yea it’s true we only won 37 games, but you can pretty much say all those wins came in-front of a home base of empty seats and people cheering for the other team. We finished the season strong, and players should be rewarded. Phillips Arena i guarantee will look completely different (throughout the season-not playoffs) if we still have Smith come start of season. If not, it’s hard to win when you’re on a team that doesn’t have any support from the fans. Believe me, if the Hawks were playing in the playoffs at Home with a crowd attendance from a regular season game, we would of got swept.

But i’m out. This you’re boy ToDa signing off til later.

By cp

July 30, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Bibby is not even close to the top 10 pgs in this league. The guy is on the downside of his career. He is a solid starting pg but this guy is not even mentioned when it comes to the best pgs in the league. I dont think signing Josh Smith to a big deal would make or break this franchise. Losing him for next to nothing would hurt this franchise more than anything. If the rumor is true that the Suns offered Barbosa for Chills than yea this front office is straight clueless. Getting a guy who can play the 1 and 2 then give you instant offense is better than getting nothing. Having Barbosa and Evans makes the bench a lot better. I want no part of Diaw. Him and Woody couldnt get along so that would not have been a good move. But I guess if you did not want to pay Childress why would they want to pay Barbosa. I really wish we had a Mark Cuban type owner or Paul Allen type owner. The D.A.S.G seem to be in the wrong business. If Okafur got the kind of deal he got then I have no idea why the front office seems to think Josh is only worth only 9 million a year. Give the kid the 11 or 12 and be done. This is beyond ridiculous.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

BA.to Da, I know Horford DOES’NT MIND playing center, but most of the experts on this blog feels as though PF is his “NATURAL POSITION”. So like I said earlier, where does this leave Josh Smith?

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

BA.to Da, I know Horford DOES’NT MIND playing center, but most of the experts on this blog feels as though PF is his “NATURAL POSITION”. So like I said earlier, where does this leave Josh Smith? Evidentally they see him as a SF. I dont see it.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

ok, I’m shutting my trap about camps. However, I’m happy to blog from a fine location such as the Ritz as doc suggested. If Bottom Line can hook up the protest suite at the Ritz, I may miss a few games as long as I’m not on the hook for room service—which should be waaay better than Philips Arena popcorn!

ray too many nice words. I’ll never make it as a hard core rapper/blogger with you putting those horrible rumors out there. Next thing you know, the fans will find out that I didn’t sharpen my rhymes while living in a tough neighborhood. I’ll be stuck blogging about Michael Bolton and Olympic events like the figure skating and Equestrian events ;-)

terrell Given that I can’t get Josh Williams or Marvin Smith, I think I’d prefer Josh Smith for 65 mil than Marvin for 65 mil. Look at Marvin’s tender for next summer—7.355+ mil. Keep in mind that pick 1-Bogut got 12 mil and the 3rd & 4th picks—the star PGs got max deals this summer. I don’t see Marvin saying, my tender is too high, I’ll take the deal you offered Chills in July 2008. He probably expects more than the 65 mil we are discussing.

TB, you are likely correct in saying the ASG values Marvin more than either Josh. If you put the max raise 10.5% on Marvin’s tender number for next season, it is a bigger offer than Josh has right now. It would be 6yr/55.7 mil. I am almost certain that Marvin plans to get more than his tender as the starting point of his next contract.

Right now—Josh is a better rebounder, defender, clutch shooter. Even though I wince when he pulls up for 3, he will try a shot when the pressure is on. Marvin’s looking to pass. Marvin’s strength is his mid range jumper. I think Josh could develop a mid range jumper. At the moment, Josh is the better 3 pt threat. I know that’s similar to saying the fastest guy I know runs an 8 minute mile, but we are comparing the two.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Marvin. I think he will develop into a better player, just not as good a player as Smith. I prefer Smith as my tweener over Marvin…even if he had to play the SF most nights in 2010.

OLE

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

kirkinga:

Its all about the play AND the money. You keep BIBBY at 14-15 mil and you lose SMITH. I can’t see the ASG ramping up the payroll enough to keep both.

SMITH should get 12-13 mil at least based on his value to the team. He’s proved that worth against the league and the world champions in the playoffs.

BIBBY was a newbie and with a debilitating injury. So this year, who knows? He may revert to All-Star PG status again.

Again, I just can’t see the money being there for both. The only other option is to not sign SMITH or trade BIBBY and see what kind of play develops during the ‘08 - ‘09 season.

The ASG is between a rock and a hard place. I don’t see both their future salaries in place on this team beyond this season.

I’m a firm beliver in HB’s theories regarding finances and management within this ownership group. And what’s playing out makes good sense in that regard.

By Kevin Willis

July 30, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Sekou, what was actually offered in the sign and trades for Childress? Can you find that information for us? It will probably infuriate us even more with the ASG, but I’ve gotta know what we turned down for NOTHING!!!!!!!

By webb

July 30, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

I think that the moral to the story for both Josh’s is that ASG is waiting too long to strike a deal. The “wait & see” approach will never make the Hawks a winning team.

Granted, I will be the first to admit that the J’s were not top tier players worth 10 million plus, but then again who is???

Their deals should have been made at the end of last season & before this season.

Is gas worth 4.00 per gallon? No, but we pay it anyway and we don’t wait a day or two to see what the market does b/c it will only be higher…

By Melvin

July 30, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

Waiting for the team to decide may feel like water torture to the average Hawks fan, especially after the loss of Childress, but the prospect of cap room in the coming years may be too attractive to ownership - as opposed to committing major dollars to a team that won just 37 games last season. - from hoopsworld link

I’m willing to commit dollars into this team when ownership is… If the BASG intentions are to save money for cap purposes, well my intentions will be to save money (instead of buying Hawks tickets and paraphernalia) for my retirement…

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

richbrave I think someone told him he was signing for Euros instead of dollars. Maybe he got a double whammy confusing the Canadian dollar with the US dollar in negotiations. In any case, I would not be surprised if he went back to Europe when he gets to that RFA year.

If he can do all the currency hedging your talking about in his early 20s, basketball was the wrong career choice.

He would have been the man in the Wall Street office leagues.

Fiscal PAIN for European on the wrong side of the currency shifts.

By webb

July 30, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

I would like to clarify what I meant about the 2 Josh’s. They are good, but maybe not 10 million good.

Chil was maybe the most consistent player on the team, nigh in & night out. He should have gotten something approaching 7-8 million annually long term.

No doubt, J Smith is a beast but he is not very skilled overall. If he improves his game (i.e. mid range, handles), he would be unstoppable.

But if you are a true fan of bball, you realize that in today’s NBA most players do 1 or 2 things really well & have very few fundamentally sound habits (neither from a skill nor execution standpoint). That is a by product of players entering after High School.

Having said that, giving Jsmith 55 million last year would have held more weight that trying to low ball him now… it would have greatly increased the chances of him being signed right now.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

richbrave

As I said earlier, hard decisions have to be made. If Smith signs, then Marvin would be my choice as the odd man out.

If Acie takes a large developmental step, then I’ve said Bibby is expendable.

Again in regards to ASG, I have stated repeatedly that my expectations of ASG were low from the start. I did say they were playing the RFA situation correctly. But I understood from the start that they weren’t likely to be among the top spenders in the league.

I do believe should the Hawks become relevant again, the revenue will come, and they will spend. But not not likely above the luxury tax, and certainly not with a team that only won 37 games.

Now that we have more information I believe ASG should act, one way or the other, and soon.

If they don’t act soon, and in the end this is resolved in a way that could have been resolved now, then I will have no problem saying that ASG did not play this correctly.

In other words, don’t do later, what you can do now. Some apply this to last season, and/or to the period immediately after the playoffs ended, I don’t.

I’m curious, did you really mean to say * “SIGN SMITH WHATEVER IT TAKES.”” * ?

It sounds familiar?

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

Chills is on PTI, right now.

By SB

July 30, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

With Emeka getting 72 mil adn Deng getting 71mil. Who realy thinks Josh isn’t worth the same. If you can get him for less that’s all good, but i don’t think that 9 mil per is going to get it.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

WHOLE!

*By Realist

July 29, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Seems to me the people on this blog fall mainly into two camps:

1.

  Pay Josh Smith whatever he wants. He is young, he can run and jump and dunk. And most importantly, it’s not my money so why do I care if he gets $7M per year or $12M per year? Who cares about future implications to the business or the salary cap? That’s why we have mid-level exemptions, and that’s why we buy tickets, so the ASG can spend, spend, spend on players!*

Realist

Do you truly see very many people that say that? Certainly not from the bulk of the posters here. Or else why would there have been so much discussion over the past weeks about “market value”.

I think most Hawks fans and the vast majority of folks on this blog would like to see the ASG offer Josh a decent contract, and get it done. I do NOT see much, if any, talk of ” Pay Josh Smith whatever he wants”.

And I’ve yet to see a post that said “Who cares about future implications to the business or the salary cap?”

Or even one that hinted at that. And yes, we get one-timers that say stupid stuff, but that’s not worthy of discussion.

Kirk and I discussed earlier, whether or not anyone had posted needing to pay Josh a max contract.(My position was that few if any had). So I went back and looked over 10 days of posting beginning June 30th (just before “opening day” of free agency) and only found 1 post, from Ken Strickland, that said “pay him the max”. That was in 10 days of posting!

My point is that you are very vehement about some of the blog, and you may actually be projecting a much greater portion as “Josh lovers” than exist in reality. I’m guessing that a LOT of folks feel like me. That is, “I’d hate like hll to lose him, but *if we can be a better team, so be it”.

I say we’re all Hawks fans and we’re all one camp. And maybe we have a few on the near end of the continuum and a few on the far end. But by far, most are near the middle, seeing the need for fair contracts, and also fiscal sanity.

By the way, when you get a chance, get back to me about that “playing up to the contract” example I asked you about. Thanks.

By SalimFan

July 30, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

…………Computer on the fritz……..don’t expect frequent apperances…….have to take this hunk of junk(Which I just got 8 months ago) to the shop…………………..must aquire alternate computer for communication in the meantime…………not much time left before it crashes again…………………….PAY THE MAN HIS DAMN MONEY!!!!!!…………..whatched the playoffs on tape again…………..Chillz is a stat stuffer, always getting offensive rebounds where you least expect him to……….right between Kendrick Perkins and KG……………………..Smoove is tha truth………………If Sund trades him i’ve got 12” of steel toe waiting for him…………….yeah you sign and trade that RICK……………Signing off ;-)

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

Manny, I dont like Marvin better than Smith. wtf? I never said that. If he shows that he can play SF, I would MUCH RATHER HAVE SMITH OVER MARVIN.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Manny, I dont like Marvin better than Smith. wtf? I never said that. If he shows that he can play SF, even though I like him as a PF, I would MUCH RATHER HAVE SMITH OVER MARVIN.

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the link terrell barron, I believe that there is some interesting and practical information contained in the article.

I find the BYC thing confusing, but this article makes it a bit clearer.

Of all the scenarios he laid out, my preference would be the Cavalier, Laker, and Mavs scenarios.

I think he gives a sensible admonition when he says:

Waiting for the team to decide may feel like water torture to the average Hawks fan, especially after the loss of Childress, but the prospect of cap room in the coming years may be too attractive to ownership - as opposed to committing major dollars to a team that won just 37 games last season.

By nique

July 30, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

Sautee, the point is that we are not a better team without Josh Smith. I guarantee that if we lose him, we don’t get comparable value for him either via a trade or by the Hawks spending that money on a FA to replace him. See Childress as an example.

I’m not saying pay the guy $15 mill/year but pay him something comparable to what Emeka and Luol got.

By ghost

July 30, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

A couple of random thoughts SIAP, just have to vent for a moment -

Since when is Barbosa “garbage”…Michael Gearon Jr. was quoted as saying the Hawks didn’t trade Chill because all that was offered in return was “garbage”? Nothing like daddy’s money to make you feel like you know what you’re talking about. Anyone think Gearon Jr. has any shred of self-awareness?

Seriously - these owners are like characters in South Park. These guys act like they’re shocked that Smith expects to be paid.

Pay Smith, sign Luke Jackson and Jeremy Richardson for the 11th and 12th spots and this team can win the division. Once we pay Smith and lock him up, there will be the love-fest press conference, this junk will be behind us and the team will be ready to roll.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

terrell You had put the question out there about paying Josh 65-70 mil in comparison to Marvin.

If you look at the italics, I agreed with you that the ASG likely prefers Marvin to Josh (as SF). I didn’t mean to imply that was your preference.

I did mean to put up a case for Josh even if his longer term slot is at the SF primary (and PF secondary) in place of Marvin. Josh will likely be more cost effective for the production over the long term.

BK drafted several guys that could play multiple positions. There is value in that flexibility.

OLE

By richbrave

July 30, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

SIGN SMITH WHATEVER IT TAKES MONE-YWISE. Don’t wait until the next season is over and his contract is up. Sign him now, even if others must be let go. He is worth as much to the franchise as HORFORD. For stability’s sake he needs to be locked up this summer. BIBBY and WILLIAMS are optional in my opinion. For what its worth. one of drmaryb’s fab five has already flown the coop and become a Turk. If WILLIAMS needs to go so be it. If BIBBY needs to go so be it. Bibby needs a slash attack to be successful. The WOODEN-one is not that type of coach. WOODSON’s in - BIBBY’s out in my humble opinion. BIBBY was swallowed up in the half-court offense. The only effective moves from the PG I saw in the play-offs were when the offense could fast=break. So BIBBY’s a liability not an asset both on and off(money) the court with WOODSON playing the offensive schemes he obviously prefers.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

nique

I agree that it’s unlikely that any sign and trade will leave us better off UNLESS it’s a blockbuster trade including another major cog (Smoove and Bibby for Billups, Prince and Amir, for example). Not likely, but if it happened or something of that magnitude, than I could be ok without Smith.

That said, I think we get the best “bang for the buck” by re-signing him to a fair contract, and yes, comparable with the two you mentioned.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this

WHOLE!

MannyT

Tell me you didn’t!

You really didn’t bring up Josh vs. Marvin did you?

Oh, Lord. Good thing Matt’s taking a break, he’d be salivating all over his keyboard! ;-)

(Matt, if your lurking out there, you know I’m funnin’.)

Manny, you sure know how to start a fire. Next thing you know it’ll be a HBFF (Hawks Bloggers Feeding Frenzy). ;-)

peace

By SalimFan

July 30, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

Boston had a payroll of 79 Million last season. They won the title. Regardless of how you feel about those away losses, we STILL took them to 7 games. That would not have happend without Bibby(Big time assists to JC&JS), JJ, and SMOOVE. I say give him 6/11 or 6/72.

I have no problem giving 22 year old BEASTS that type of money. Marvin(22), Horford(22), Smoove(22). They are going to get better(And they are all startes on a team that just went to the playoffs). We are eventually going to get a better coach. Besides, it’s not like we pay anyone on the bench a huge amount of cash. If you look at the successful teams around the leauge, they are ALL paying their starters TOP DOLLAR(Aside from rookie contracts of course).

It just has to be done in order to compete. If you don’t want to pay, then your players will go somewhere where their services are appreciated.

In the NBA CASH shows appreciation. BOTTOM LINE. Until the Hawks owners commit to that philosophy, we will continue to be at the bottom half of the leauge.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

Hey Kirk, you mean to tell me that you would trade Smoove and Speedy for Odom? You must be looking at that 35 MILLION THAT WOULD BE COMING OFFF THE BOOKS NEXT YEAR? (Odom 14.5, Bibby 15.2, Zaza 4)

By kirknga

July 30, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

terrell

Yes, in that particular scenario I like the cap space more than I like Odom.

But the Cavalier scenario is the most intriguing to me.

Thanks richbrave I just wanted to be clear about the “whatever it takes money-wise” part.

By HB Ando

July 30, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

For what it’s worth, ESPN’s pre-season fantasy player rankings have Bibby 71st overall, and the 13th rated PG. I’m dumbfounded by all the folks that believe he’s a top tier PG, and should be re-signed to a $12-15 million extension.

The only thing that keeps me from being frustrated by such ridiculous overvaluation of Bibby is that there’s no way the ASG would ever pay him that kind of cash, especially if they won’t pony up more than $9 million/year for Josh, AND, there’s no logical reason why a player, like Bibby, who will likely be signing his last long-term deal, would want to completely kill any remote possibility of playing for a championship, by re-upping with a team that has NO chance of giving him that opportunity.

Every person who calls for re-signing him seems to completely ignore the very realistic consideration that he will have no interest in playing here, especially if they let a talent like Josh Smith get away.

And assuming that Joe Johnson is going to stay here is equally shaky.

Players want to play for solid, well-funded, committed organizations, who take care of their guys, and genuinely have a plan to compete for championships. There’s not a single thing going on here, with the ASG, that supports any of those basic expectations.

These guys cannot afford 4 players making more than $10 million each. And there’s no way I’d give that kind of cash to a rapidly declining, and replaceable, Bibby, instead of Smith, JJ or Horford.

Ain’t gonna happen….

By drmaryb

July 30, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

Woooaaa! is that a RichBrave sighting?

Aaaaah! all is well in the world again…my RichBrave is alive and well….now, I can sleep and eat!

Hey RichieB I was disgusted that J-Chillz was not resigned. It felt like an EarthQuake to my heart - a true 5.8 on the Rictor Scale. Watch out L.A. we felt your E-Quake all the way here in Atlanta!

I had this ASG figured out all wrong - I guess HB-Ando, Doc and Ray & Nem were ALL RIGHT!

These cats ain’t got no Money to do the Damn Thing!
This “ORG” does not deserve This “Fan-Base” They don’t give a damn about US! If we don’t sign J-Smoove it will be like losing Dominique ALL Over Again! Anyway, great to see you on here, I have been so damned buzy it has been insane….I have been out of the country doing some work to help those less fortunate than us…..People who have REAL PROBLEMS! that don’t concern SPORTS!

I hope we realize how lucky we are to be able to BLOG about bascially NOTHING! ALL DAY! & ALL THE TIME! Peace & Love….I have got to go now!

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

Manny, I did’nt even mention Marvin?

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

And Manny, I’d deal Marvin in a hearbeat. HE BETTER NOT ASK FOR THE SAME AMOUNT AS SMITH. Please! He’s a mid-range jump shooter, with avg skills. I doubt they extend him. But you never know with the ASG. I think Ol’ Woodrow likes him. Dont get me wrong, I’d like to keep him around, if we can get him to take 6 or 7 mill a year, which I doubt he would, but if we could somehow get a guy like Josh Howard or Battier for him, I’m with it. And Battier might be expendable with the addition of Artest, unless he wants to be a backup.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

And Manny, I’d deal Marvin in a hearbeat. HE BETTER NOT ASK FOR THE SAME AMOUNT AS SMITH. Please! He’s a mid-range jump shooter, with avg skills. I doubt they extend him. But you never know with the ASG. I think Ol’ Woodrow likes him. Dont get me wrong, I’d like to keep him around, if we can get him to take 6 or 7 mill a year, which I doubt he would, but if we could somehow get a guy like Josh Howard or Battier for him, I’m with it. And Battier might be expendable with the addition of Artest, unless he wants to be a backup. How about Marvin and Speedy for Battier. lol!!

By ray

July 30, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

Waiting for the team to decide may feel like water torture to the average Hawks fan, especially after the loss of Childress, but the prospect of cap room in the coming years may be too attractive to ownership - as opposed to committing major dollars to a team that won just 37 games last season.

May as well say “be willing to take a step back in order to take steps forward later.” Doesn’t sound like a way to win more games to me. Sounds like a way to get at that so-called cap space that we’ve not been able to use well. But hey, who am I to argue?

travis, good point. Only…who got them into this litigous mess in the first place? Hmmmm.

MannyT, how about this:

I’m MannyT, I be the real roughneck muthaaaa Check my style I’m a statistical wondaaaa Comin hard core wit da sal’ry cap numbaaa Switch it up like Sonic to Oklahoma City Thundaaa Blog wit ya A game or stay home brothaaa Get acronymic wit me ‘cause there ain’t no othaaaa….

Come on. Sign up with Ray Ray’s Records. Promise to treat you better than Suge Knight. Heh!

By ray

July 30, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

terrell, agreed. Marvin’s not worth that kind of money. Not yet. Of course, some people feel the same way about Josh, but I see him improving in areas that Marvin hasn’t improved in.

I think most of us want Marvin to become more aggressive on both ends of the floor and expand his game. I know it’s still early. But in the early stages, you look for the signs more than the results. I don’t see the signs, and that’s what bothers me. Imagine if Marvin did these things:

1)Hold your own on defense. Don’t have to be a star, just hold your own.

2)Become a consistent outside shooting threat. Not asking for several three pointers a game, but the ability to hit a couple here and there. More than that, the ability to hit 20-21 footers consistently.

3)Finish better at the basket. Take better angles on your drives instead of allowing yourself to be forced into a bad angle along the baseline.

4)Grab a rebound or two more a game than last year. Three is even better, but not an absolute must.

Imagine Marvin doing those things. I guarantee we wouldn’t be hollering as loud about Smoove. Guarantee it. Because Marvin would be a complete SF, bar none. Does that diminish Josh’s value? No, not really. But it diminishes the glaring need for Smith, due to the lack of help in the frontcourt for Horford.

I recall Mike Woodson himself making a comment not too long ago (maybe a month or so ago, I can’t remember). He talked about what Marvin needed to work on. One of the things he said is something I agree with, but didn’t expect to hear from him. He said that Marvin needed to work on being a consistent scorer. He said that JJ and Josh Smith were at that level, but Marvin wasn’t there yet.

Take it or leave it. That came from the head coach himself. And that’s a fact.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

kirk

From your post:

If Acie can play the point better than Bibby, then Bibby is expendable, I’ve said that should be considered in when deciding whether to retain Bibby or not. That seems to be missing in the bombast from those who are obsessed with my comments about Bibby and in general. :)

But until Acie can assume the lead role, convincingly, I believe reupping Bibby is critical.

I’ll buy all of that with a caveat:

I don’t think the Hawks need to wait for Acie to match Bibby’s production. Which ain’t gonna happen without major minutes, anyway.

That is, he doesn’t have to play better than Bibby, but just good enough that the team thinks he’s producing enough to let Bibby go. And they must be able to see that his development is on schedule. And if his shot doesn’t develop enough, then letting Bibby go ALSO involves getting a shooter.

The best case scenario for the Hawks and Bibby is for Acie to show what we hope in the first half of the season, and for a contending team to need a point guard near the trade deadline. Otherwise, we may have to look for a three way trade, acquiring another point guard as we trade Bibby. And, as I’ve said before, I think Bibby’s greatest value would be in a midseason trade.

When is the trade deadline for next season? After our February excitement, I hope!

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

Hold on, wait a WHOLE minute!

Maybe there is another terrell barron poster. Look at July 30, 2008 4:28 PM

I didn’t start this scrum, I just put my 2 cents in the bucket. Now it’s like this was my question.

You know I don’t shy away from questions, but my deal was just a response.

If Horford is our so called PF of the future, where does this leave Smoove? SF? Are you serious? He does’nt have SF skills. Or are you guys willing to let him develop as a SF for a few more years?

I’m not that kid on the playground that starts a fight when everyone hits his hand and he starts punching folks.

ray that sounds better. I’ve gotta roll some of that pro wrasslin’ interview talk into the act. Now I can get some fake tattoos ;-)

Chills is making the rounds today. PTI and Dan Patrick Show (via 680). I missed PTI, but I’ll catch it on the website. Waiting on DP Show interview now.

OLE

By ray

July 30, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

Ando, I think if Bibby was one of the top 6-7 point guards in the league, Sacramento would’ve been smart enough to either keep him or trade him for something that really helps their team. Instead, they essentially traded him for cap space. They’re not broke, nor are they enduring a ton of litigation. That leaves another idea: he’s not worth that kind of money anymore.

I think it’s beyond foolhardy to pay a guy that kind of money this late in his career for freakin’ 16 and 6. So did the Kings. If you can believe that the team can get better with or without Josh Smith, then surely you can believe that there’s a better and cheaper way to get that kind of production out of the pg position. Right? Well, a sensible person could, anyway…

RichBrave, hang in there buddy. We’re prayin’ for ya.

Drmaryb. Here I was thinking you had gone and left us. I see your ol’ boyfriend brought you back around! Heh!

For the record, I’m all about keeping Bibby for a lower (much lower) price than he’s getting now. I reiterate…he’s not the way down in his career. It’s really easy to say he’s the best pg on the roster right now. Not a real profound statement, and a far cry from top 6-7 in the league.

But you have to take a peek at the future. Over the next 3-4 years (which is what some suggest we sign him for…at $15mil per year, no less), will he even be one of the top pgs…in the east? As in, better than Devin Harris, Rajon Rondo (ha), Chauncey Billups, Andre Miller, or Jose Calderon? What if Derrick Rose or DJ Augustin come on strong within a year or two? I can think of several guys with higher production, getting less money. It doesn’t shake out. And I’m willing to be that no other team is going to sign him for that much money. No way. Not at his age and production level.

Consider also that Bibby is playing in Woody’s twisted idea of an offense, not Adelman’s run and gun. I see that is missing from the argument, to coin a phrase.

By roan st

July 30, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

Sekou, thanks for the info. I am so ready for this disaster to be resolved regardless of who comes out on top. However, with the way the Gearon led group has operated thus far I would take my chances with Belkin. Two years ago I can honestly say I didn’t feel that way. But now I believe that Belkin is a better business man and is capable of bringing in a partner with some cash. Personally, I am done with Gearon and this group of losers.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

Ando I agree that Bibby isn’t a 15 mil/yr guy. I also wouldn’t expect ro want the ASG to pony up big $$ for him ahead of the younger talents. However, I would not be surprised if some team lost a quality PG, got nervous and overpaid for him.

drmaryb I have seen the blog quote, the ASG ain’t broke, they’re just not liquid right now.

Maybe they are on the millionaire version of the government check. If Josh can wait until the first of the month, they’ll take care of him. He better not wait too long though, the collective bargaining agreement does not allow him to take government cheese and that cash might be gone by the middle of the month ;-)

Chills next on the Dan Patrick Show.

OLE

By ray

July 30, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

Manny, I don’t even want to hear from Chill. Not that I don’t like the brotha, it’s just that I don’t want to know what we missed out on deal-wise. Really, I don’t.

I agree that Barbosa doesn’t fit well into our style of play (whatever that’s supposed to be). But he would’ve been an ASSET! Anything would’ve, even the player you let walk away for the much-talked about but seldom-used-well cap space….

Sautee, that’s the point I was trying to make about Sacramento. Udrih was good enough to run the point solidly, so no problem with letting Bibby go. And though we hashed this point a lot more than a few months ago….there’s never anything wrong with acquiring another pg in a Bibby trade. In fact, it wouldn’t be impossible (I don’t think) to get another cheaper vet or another young pg “prospect” like Kyle Lowry (some health issues) to play. With Bibby, we’re paying for the back end of what he used to be able to do, not what he’s going to do. Anyway, this is getting old because people are more interested in being right for the sake of argument then for making sense…

Whatever happens, happens.

Manny, you’re gonna need a whole bunch of cracker jack boxes or Bazooka Joe gum packs! Fake tattoos don’t grow on trees!

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 30, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

This afternoon’s posts got me thinking about a question that I’m not sure anyone here has an answer to, but if you know, you’ll enlighten …

How is revenue split among NBA franchises? I would assume TV/media revenues, licensing revenues, etc. are equally split among the clubs. Does anyone actually have a number for these in ‘06 or ‘07?

I would assume, and maybe incorrectly, that ticket sales, local licensing revenues, etc., are also used to pay down operational expenses. In this ownership’s case, they also own the arena, so I’m not sure how events exclusive of the Hawks and Thrashers impact revenue.

For decades Donald Sterling ran the Clippers based solely on generating a positive cash flow year-to-year. In recent years - after moving into Staples - he has increased his spending. Did he change his mind and start operating at a loss, in order to sniff the playoffs, or has the changing source of revenues increase his ability to pay players’ salaries while still generating a yearly profit?

Specifically with this ownership group, what is causing this assumed loss of money, year-after-year? Revenue from the NBA is steady they are coming off the additional revenue generated by three play-off sell-outs.

Of there is a loss, is it on the Hawks side? The Thrashers side? The arena? Is it assumed losses based on a Belkin buy-out?

(Side question one: How many other NBA owners, own a franchise in another league?)

Additionally, the team’s payroll has been average at best, and lest we forget, this team only had 13 players on its roster.

(Side question two: Were the Hawks the only team in the NBA to have ZERO players in the NBDL last season?)

My questions all come back to the same point - why an additional $1-2mil per year for Josh Smith makes that much difference to this ownership group. $1-2 per season is the worth of the 10/11 player on your roster. That difference is only 3% of the team’s estimated total payroll.

If 3% of an assumed $65mil payroll makes that much difference in your overall operating budget then it screams - screams - of significant revenue issues.

By B.A. ToDa

July 30, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

terrel, like i said man. If it’s not broke, don’t fix it. Every1 knows Horford can play the 4, but what does that leave us at Center? ZaZa? If Smith is here, Horford will continue to play the Center when those 2 are on the court together.

By HHoops

July 30, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

Travis

I understand what you are saying. ASG is trying to keep the team as competitive as they can without knowing where the ownership is going to go in Feb.

Let’s look at where we are right now with the Hawks line up as compared to last season:

With all of that being said, we would without a doubt be a better team by resigning Smooth.

Now here is the kicker, that same starting line up (Bibby/JJ/Marvin/Smooth/Horford) and a bench, without Chills, won 37 games last year. I can see why ASG would try to trade Smooth, instead of signing him for 11-13 M per, if they could improve the team.

I am like most of you guys, in the fact that I would like for them to get on with this thing. I also see how they could really improve this team, without spending any more more money, by making the right trade.

This is a hard call. Resign Smooth, make most Hawks fans happy with that resigning, and probably win 35-40 games again. Or, make a trade that most fans will not like, because it includes Smooth, that could mean alot more wins for the same money.

I don’t like having to wait longer, but if I’m ASG I’m looking for trades that can improve the Hawks before I resign Smooth!!!

By mykhalc

July 30, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

CHILS’ interview at the 10m30sec mark of the PTI podcast. you can tellin’ he’s holdin’ back but ya at least get a bit of his take on things.

By Sautee

July 30, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

WHOLE!

chuckw/deadjournalist

Good questions! I’m guessing that Manny can help here.

Also from your post:

If 3% of an assumed $65mil payroll makes that much difference in your overall operating budget then it screams - screams - of significant revenue issues.

Bingo!

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this

chuckw NBA revenue is a huge question that goes way beyond blog posting space. This article will help with data from the 06-07 season.

Business of Basketball

and the Business of Hockey

I was surprised to see that basketball produces much more revenue and hockey lost 2/3 of the operating income that basketball made.

Before researching the side questions I would guess that several (btwn 5-10 teams) NBA owners have other teams. Remember some of those team might not be at the highest level (like Arthur Blank owning the Georgia Force.)

I think about 1/2 the teams don’t didn’t use their D-League affiliate last season. Not researched, just a guess.

ray The Chills interview was good for me to hear Chills point of view. He was very nice and polite. It came down to the fact that he felt options were going away while he was waiting for something to happen. He wanted things to happen quickly and a fair deal didn’t happen quickly.

Economy played a factor. He understands that he gets 5 yrs of NBA pay in 3 yrs in Greece. But he also mentioned that he has the power to leave Greece each summer.

He got an call from Chauncey Billups telling him that he made the right choice.

As Smith is waiting for the first of the month to determine if the ASG collected enough checks to come back to the negotiating table, Chills choice makes sense.

OLE

By Melvin

July 30, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

For those who need clarity on the Josh Childress situation. Here’s JChill on PTI

Eat your heart out BASG lovers… JChill clearly said it wasn’t about the money. Note, he also said that his ex-teammates supported him… hmmm, can you say guys may be ready to get out the ATL at the first chance they get….

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

Between the lawsuit with Belkin, hockey issues (losing money 06-07), running a hoops team and an entertainment arena, there is a lot on the ASG plate.

While they should be able to find people to handle the biz, I do get nervous when I hear that so many of the execs are gone. If it were one business unit, that would not be as big a deal. However, there are a bunch of owners that have “day jobs” and a sports gig that covers 2 very different sports and a top level arena.

It just seems like a lot to handle w/o that executive layer of people who have experience with sports.

A WHOLE lot of issues to burn a HOLE in the bank account.

OLE

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 30, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

MannyT -

Thanks for the links. Good articles.

I was going for the four major sports leagues for multi-team ownership. off the top of my head, I could only think of the Pistons owner who also owns the Tampa Nay Lightning. I did some light research, and nothing was easy and obvious, but I’m going to do some digging, because I don’t think it is more than a five - if that many.

I’m also looking into the D-League question more because in my head, I thought it would also be around five.

I just saw, and i couldn’t make this up, the Hawks will share an affiliation of the Anaheim Arsenal with the Clippers.

By ray

July 30, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this

Sautee, I recall you saying something about saving a dollar here, and then finding there’s nothing worth spending it on. Yep, because then you get to say “oh dear. Nothing to spend it on. Guess I’ll just put it in my pocket.” Yep….the plan along, eh?

Chuck, I would definitely defer that question to Stone Cold MannyT. But yes, the prevailing speculation is that there are very serious revenue issues here. Very serious.

In other news

I see the latest poll about Josh Smith and whether or not he should be signed for 6 years and 72 million or whatever….wow. So far it’s Fans-1508 votes and ASG employees-249 votes. I wonder if ASG employees are allowed to vote more than once? Well, are you k….ahhh nevermind.

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

Manny that post HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MARVIN. What I was trying to say was, I dont like Marvin as our SF either, BUT If we COULD COMBINE THE 2 , which we cant, we’d have a sf that was freaky athletic, could rebound, block shots(Smoove)with a pretty good jumper (Marvin). Get it?

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

And Ray, for the umteenth time, the ASG did’nt expect GREECE to get involved in the Childress sweepstakes. If they had’nt of, he’d probably still be around. Why would they do a sign and trade for a player that did’nt fit our scheme(whatever that is), if they intended on keeping Chills? Remember, they told him to wait until they signed Smoove. He took it personal and decided he could’nt wait, so he bolted. Plain and simple. I cant say I blame him, but I cant blame them either. Not on this one. But that’s in the past. Lets focus on the future. And it could still be bright.

By ray

July 30, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

Manny, I hear ya. Always liked Chill. At least some people are encouraging him for making the absolute best decision in a bad situation, rather than defame him and say he’s not motivated enough to play in the NBA. What slanderous libel. I’d do what I had to do to get out of a bad situation, too, as I suspect many of us would.

Melvin, I’m very afraid that this is rapidly becoming true. Watch Josh not be re-signed for the long haul, or a good trade is not made. Then watch JJ opt out and go. And more than half the league will want him. He’ll be gone faster than Baron Davis. Some people will say “don’t panic now”, but I’m telling…people are already moving behind the scenes in anticipation.

Now stand back and watch ASG lovers/employees refute that statement…

By SalimFan

July 30, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this

I found another CPU Ha!

It’s official Leoul Deng agreed to a 6yr 80 million dollar deal. He’s not as good as smoove either. Deng only averages two more points than smoove and isn’t nearly the defense force that smoove. Smith also has more big game potential than Deng. Hows that for your Market Value.

Just Listend to the Chills interview on ESPN. Well the guys on the team supported his decision. That’s good enough for me.

RAY, chills really didn’y say anything that hadn’t been said before. “Hawks were dragging their feet and I wanted to get a deal done early.”

By ray

July 30, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this

terrell, where did that stuff about Childress come from? I addressed you in my 8:45 p.m. post, and I talked about nothing but Marvin and a little about Josh Smith. Perhaps I didn’t say “Smith”, but I sure didn’t say “Childress”.

By DAP01

July 30, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

The ownership and management of the Hawks are the worst of any major sport team.

The WORST!

By ray

July 30, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

One other thing, terrell. I believe I’ve said myself that NOBODY saw the Greece offer coming. Not even Childress’ agents, who admitted as such afterward.

As for telling Childress to wait until they got Smoove taken care of, I agree. I don’t blame him for bolting either. I don’t agree with how they handled him, but that’s just me. I’m trying to concentrate on the future. Please tell me how it’s going to be bright, so I can share in your boundless optimism. Seriously.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this

chuckw The first column of this link can give you the raw data to see how many teams assigned players to the D-League along with dates and teams.

D-League transactions

OLE

By terrell barron

July 30, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this

Ray, you were saying we just let Chills walk away, when we coulda had Barbosa or any assett. We did’nt let him walk away. I really believe they woulda matched any REASONABLE offer for Chills. But he chose to go in a direction, that they did’nt see coming. That’s all.

By HHoops

July 30, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

News Flash

Josh Powell just got waived by the Clippers. He is 25 years old, 6’9”, 225, avg. 5.5 ppg, & 5.2 rpg in 19 min pg.

The Hawks are into saving money. Why not invite him to camp and see if he can make the team? We need another Big.

By HHoops

July 30, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

News Flash

Josh Powell just got waived by the Clippers. He is 25 years old, 6’9”, 225, avg. 5.5 ppg, & 5.2 rpg in 19 min pg.

The Hawks are into saving money. Why not invite him to camp and see if he can make the team? We need another Big.

By MannyT

July 30, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

I am happy to revise my earlier post that discusses Josh and Marvin to simply say the following.

Eliminate all terrell references.

Seems that the Josh offer that averages 9 mil/yr would be less than the multi year offer that Marvin would get if it started with his tender number for next summer.

Marvin has a better mid range jumper. Josh seems to be better in most other areas.

I’d pay Josh before I’d pay Marvin.

Not sure that the ASG will pay anyone

Now I’m done with that deal…moving on with the Seussical…I meant what I said and I said what I meant. I responded to what I saw. no big deal.

OLE

By steve, ATL

July 30, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this

Let’s cut right to the chase…The ASG is underfunded as an ownership group and can’t play the game correctly. When Belkin left he also took some spending power with him that the ASG has never replaced. It’s really that simple.

The ASG is essentially going to watch two young cornerstone players walk away and will get a lot less in return. Chill will get us nothing of course, and Smith will bring us some weaker package back that will save the ASG money. They will then try to sell the fans that they got better except it will be obvious that we got screwed.

Listen up: Not only are the ASG underfunded but they are also grossly incompetent as basketball people. As long as these fools own our basketball team, we really don’t have one.

I wouldn’t count on ANYTHING good happening as long as the ASG own this team because they are the worst in all of pro sports. And they aren’t likely going anywhere anytime soon.

It’s back to the cellar people. Find something else to do with your time.

By ray

July 30, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

…Terrell…we don’t see eye to eye on that issue, which is WHY I didn’t say anything to YOU about it. I said it to someone else. Pardon me for feeling like the Greece offer would’ve never happened if they’d at least made the guy an offer sooner than they did. It’s just an opinion. Once the Greece offer was made, it was too late to do anything other than match it, which I agree would not have been reasonable. My basic and only point is that if they weren’t going to make an offer (which they didn’t…until it was too late), then they should’ve looked at options as far as acquiring assets. But, since they insisted on keeping him, what’s the harm in at least throwing a number in his direction while dealing with Smith? They didn’t, and I feel that this contributed to the opportunity for an outside party to do what Greece did. That’s all. Now I’m going to stop explaining why I feel what I feel, because we’re not going to agree on it, and that’s okay. You have your view, I have mine.

Now, I’m sure we can talk about brighter things, which is exactly what I addressed to you in my 8:45 post, which purposely had NOTHING to do with Childress. Given your stance on Smith, the ASG, and everything else we’ve been “discussing”, you may find it refreshing…or you may not. I assume you’ll let me know.

By Clyde

July 30, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this

Melvin that video got my embarrassed to be a Hawks. Every man knows if you find a thing you can’t let it slip away.

BOOT THE SPIRIT GROUP

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this

chuckw Going back to the core of your question, this is actually an Ando moment. If roughly the same assets (players) require a 20-30% increase in expenses, you need a lot of revenue to offset those expenses. If the ASG doesn’t see a major revenue upswing, they could be unwilling to make a major expense move.

Any increase in expense that does not have a strong tie to a revenue line has to be paid for out of profits. Most companies are not that profitable as a percentage of revenues. I went back to the numbers behind the Business of Basketball article. The average operating income for all the team as a percentage of revenue is jsut under 8.2% The Hawks did better than that at 10.2%. or 9.7 mil. These numbers are from the 06-07 season when Smith made less than 2 mil.The incremental cost of his salary eats up all of the profit from a few years ago.

One major disclaimer—that 9.7 mil is EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation & amortization) In real money terms, there is a lot that accountants can do with the ITDA part of that deal to make an organization much more or less profitable.

Unless they figure out how to get more revenue from Josh being here, it is easy to make a business case that this team w/o him can be more profitable. Pocket that increase and bring in a cheap replacement that makes about the same as he makes now and no change to the expense line. Making a cynical but mathematically accurate note—Childress’s old salary pays for both Evans and Morris. New players mean new jerseys that can be sold to fans.

None of this has anything to do with winning. If you do get to the playoffs, there should be significant opportunities to make money. The ASG should have pocketed good money from those 3 playoff games.

Maybe the business good CRAP leads the ASG to sports PAIN.

By doc

July 31, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

clyde i see a new t-shirt or maybe TAKE BACK THE SPIRIT.

manny t your point is the one i made a long time ago and we chatted about back in june before this started shaking down. remember how everyone was so confident that the basg would do the right thing and sign the joshes because we believed them? their bad for implicating such to the fans. it also fits with the fiscal responsibility theme first idea espoused by realist and kirk. the question is it their greed or their lack of dollars? there are two factors that we will never know any time soon, what is the real budget allowed. the second is how much money comes in with projected wins over what they have now and is the salary increases to the joshes negatively affect what they could sensibly expect without making the payout. the return on their investment is the issue right now along with capital float. the team is run by cpa’s and lawyers, bottom line.

hence the paraphrase from the affable evander holyfield as he is explaining to the world why he is behind on his paternity payments: i aint broke, it is just i am not that liquid.

now, ringing in on your next to last paragraph and what keeps us coming back; it isnt about winning, only the illusion of doing so. anybody been reading auden lately?

By ray

July 31, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

Could be, Manny. Well, back to waiting, and disCUSSING about the current state of affairs…

By HB Ando

July 31, 2008 1:36 AM | Link to this

Manny, I’m struggling with the notion of a massive run on Evans and Morris jerseys. I really like your overview of the situation, from a revenue/liabilities standpoint. But, unless I missed something, your example neglects the issue of a significant reduction in ticket revenues, as a direct result of fan response to the loss of Smith. And if you add the very likely negative impact on the competitiveness of the team, then I can’t imagine that this years’ revenues would equal last years.

It’s virtually impossible to project the net result of failing to retain Smith, from a purely financial standpoint. But I think the overwhelming sentiment, here on the blog, is representative of the larger fan base here in Atlanta.

Barring some completely unexpected, and shockingly compelling, return in a sign-and-trade, this season’s Hawks, without Josh Smith will be neither as successful, or as exciting to watch (and if there’s anyone here, who attended multiple games at Philips last year, who doesn’t agree that Smith IS the Hawks WOW factor, then you need to find a new sport to follow, or just focus your attention on the WNBA).

It’s not hard to highlight Smith’s flaws. I’ve done it many times. But the NBA is about entertainment. It’s about ESPN’s Top-Ten plays, every night. This guy simply does things that virtually no other NBA players can do, athletically. This country is full of guys who can shoot a basketball, from down town (I’m one of them). If you combine great hand/eye coordination, a passion for hoops, and regular practice, you can make yourself a compelling shooter. But there’s not a damn thing you can do, no matter how hard you work, no matter how bad you want it, no matter how hard you pray, that will bestow upon you the physical gifts, the winning Mega Millions’ ticket of the genetic lottery, that defines Josh Smith.

He’s 22. And the league is full of guys who, at his age, had resolvable weaknesses to their games (that issue is the very reason the NBDL exists), who subsequently rounded out their games, and optimized their potential.

There’s not a guy out there, who I’m aware of, who is both a realistic acquisition option, in a sign-and-trade for Smith, as well as representing Josh’s upside.

With the recent flurry of signings, of Smith’s peers, in the restricted free agent class, the ASG have cornered themselves into a price range that is much higher than they could have likely gotten Smith to agree to last summer. I’d say he and his agent can easily justify a demand for Okafor or Deng money.

There’s just no way to take the ASG seriously, with their claims of full commitment to greatness, if they don’t quickly step up and sign Smith to a contract that is consistent with the other emerging talents who have just gotten theirs.

I see nothing in Bogut, Okafor, Deng or Beidrins that reinforces the position that Josh should expect less.

And, the sick thing is that if they just pay the kid, and give him and Horford the outside shooting, face-up big I’ve been begging for, to balance out the front line, then they’re sniffing the playoffs again.

But let him go, and you can bank that Joe Johnson WILL NOT re-sign. Bibby, though I still believe his expiring, and hugely over-priced, contract is the most obvious way to maintain a cheap payroll, and focus current and future dollars on Smith, an extension for JJ, and the ultimately massive extension that Horford will command in a few years, can’t possibly be interested in closing out his career with a team that has no commitment, or chance, of competing for championships.

Smith’s situation is far more than subjective arguments about his skill and worth. He now represents the commitment of the ASG to the city of Atlanta, and the fans of the Atlanta Hawks.

By darrell starks

July 31, 2008 2:02 AM | Link to this

yes steve from atl YOU ARE TOTALY RIGHT LETS ALL FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO WITH OUR TIME BECAUSE LONG AS SORRY ASG ARE THE OWNER THE HAWKS will be in the sellar THEY MUST SELL THE TEAM. GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

By MrSmoot

July 31, 2008 2:32 AM | Link to this

Hello Gentlemen,

After reading some of today’s posts I see a huge difference from yesterdays. Maybe I havent seen the posts of some of the other unreasonable and emotional bloggers, but im thoroughly impressed by what Im reading.

Chills: Josh Childress’ situation was a hard one for me to swallow on both ends for me. First of all if Josh left for more money and the Euro being 2 to 1 to the dollar. Though he is bright (having graduated from stanford) he needs to do his history. Every few years the American economy dips and the Euro looks attractive against the dollar, then like it always does. The dollars comes back. When it comes back this time Josh will figure all the money he is actually missing out on by not playing in the United States. And he will be back next season.

Smooth: I dont know which one of Josh’s agents amped his head up enough to believe that he is worth the money that Emeka Okafor or Luol Deng is going to recieve but he should be shot. Both of the aforementioned players are top 2 options on their team. With Luol arguably being the best player on the Bulls. And Emeka being the most important on the Bobcats. Like I said yesterday Josh is the 3rd best option on our team and should not be making nearly as much money as Joe. There is no way that you should be making an offer to Josh Smith more than 10 million dollars a year. He just doesnt warrant it. Do you recall the way Kevin Garnett manhandled him in the playoff series. Did you see how the Celtics sagged off him while in Boston and rendered Josh completely useless. Without Josh Smith we possibly still win 37 games this year. Maybe not half as exciting but a dunk still only counts as 2 pts remember. And he cant score in a legitimate half court set (because he is far from a legitimate threat to shoot).

Marvin:

Marvin doesnt get much love on this blog. But he has crazy potential and after this year he could easily being arguing the same situation for Marvin. He could be scoring at an 18 ppg clip (*he is already avg a consistant 15ppg shooting a good percentage). Doesnt turn the ball over. Plays some defense. Is also young. CAN shoot the ball. Has a good attitude. If he can improve his lateral quickness and avoid looking so discombobulated and uncomfortable while on the court. He could be a legitimate replacement to losing Smooth as out third option.

Bibby:

I like Bibby. I really do. But he should be traded before the deadline this year for draft picks. He cant be completely effective in our type of offense. And Acie needs to shown that we have confidence enough in him to run this team. Coupled with the fact that he will probably want a contract extension similar to what he is already making ( roughly 15 mil) and to us he will not be worth that. So you can package him and get some picks in return which you can use as trade bait next year.

I have a couple of questions for you bloggers???

If Smooth does sign a 1 years qualifying offer, can we still trade him before the deadline. Or is there some clause that prohibts that. Ultimately meaning that there is no way we can get anything in return.

Does anyone know how the new Collective Bargaining Agreement might potentially affect our future signings. From what i understand players like Lebron and Dwayne will be able to sing deals around 150 million. ??? You assistance will greatly be appreciated.

By Realist

July 31, 2008 3:23 AM | Link to this

Mr. Smoot.

I don’t know who you are calling emotional or anything like that. Have you ever attended a sporting event at all? You know when people do the wave? How about when they shout? It’s emotion. Everybody has it. This is a f**king blog where people are allowed to shout, only you can’t hear it. Who cares if you are impressed by what you see.

Kirk

Thanks but no thanks. If you noticed, I did not reply to anything you said after establishing the concept of there being two types of bloggers here. I know what market value and market price are, and what they are not. I did not need a lecture from you, even if you tried to color it like you agreeing or sucking up, whichever the case may be. I stand on my own and don’t need anybody in my camp. The word “camp” was a description and nothing more. I see that Sekou didn’t like what I had to say, so he makes it look like I’m dividing people. Well I’m not. And I don’t need you helping me along, thanks.

Ando

I still don’t think it’s that bad. You have to understand that the owners are having to work outside the norm of business operations. They are still dealing with court issues. Would you perform your job as well if you had those kinds of distractions? It will all be over in February, and Josh Smith is not the be all end all of this franchise. You’re sadly mistaken there, I’m afraid.

Sautee

If I have to answer that question, then you still haven’t learned about market value. There is a different market value for forwards than there is for shooting guards or point guards. So no, your comparison is not very valid.

This is obviously not a business-oriented blog.

By smh

July 31, 2008 3:45 AM | Link to this

MrSmoot are you serious though? Your post is so full of contradictions that I dont know where to start and its to much to go over. You say that Deng and Okafur are their teams number 1 and 2 options. You then go and somehow blame Josh for the Hawks for winning only 37 games. Ok explain to how you justify paying Deng and Okafur but not Josh yet the Hawks won more games than the Bulls and Bobcats. Josh is clearly the second best player on the Hawks. The numbers back that up. Throw in the fact that his numbers last year were better than both Deng’s and Okafur. Oh yea did I mention that while Deng and Okafur’s numbers went down last year Josh improved. What does dunking have to do with Josh’s game though? I dont get this Marvin love. Josh has better numbers than Marvin and is clearly the better player. You are talking about what Marvin may do next year while Josh has already done it. So please again are you serious?

Im still trying to figure out how Josh takes all the blame for the Boston series. From what I remember everybody stunk it up in Boston. Yea even our top paid guys JJ and Bibby stunk it up. Hell Bibby stunk the whole series. So if we are going to judge the Boston series we might as well trade JJ, Bibby, Marvin, and a gang of others. I think it was game 4 that JJ and Smith scored the last 30 plus points for the Hawks. Josh had a better series than Bibby and Marvin and everyone off the bench and you are acting like Josh is the reason we lost to Boston. JJ Smith and Horfored showed up more than anybody else on this team against Boston. Go check the box scores and come back because from what I see its clear you just dont like Josh. Yea he had some bad games but damn he was what 22 in his first playoffs. Game 3 he put up 27 points 9 boards 6 dimes and a block. Game 4 he put up 28 poins 6 boards 2 dimes and 7 blocks. Yea I guess you are correct. With this type of performance for a 22 year old in his first playoffs he did suck (note the obvious sarcasm) . The whole team struggled on the road against Boston but you are only calling out Josh although he had a better series than the playoff warrior in Bibby and our 2nd overall pick. THE JOSH HATE IS BECOMING STRONG ON HERE.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 31, 2008 7:35 AM | Link to this

MannyT and Ando -

Another point on the Smith/revenue conversation - while there would a significant increase in operational expenses this season if Smith was resigned for this season, the Hawks relative lack on long-term salary commitments would make the long-term impact far less significant.

And to Ando’s long-running point about Bibby’s salary, if the Hawks, with a re-signed Smith, are not competitive by mid-season they could conceivably look to move Bibby’s contract for a trade exemption or a lesser salaried player and a trade exemption.

From a marketing angle, I would have to assume that Smith (or maybe Horford) are the most marketable players even though Joe Johnson may be its best on-court.

And let’s also be real about what the loss of Smith would do to national television exposure. If I’m a programming executive for ESPN or TNT I’m not looking to put a Smith-less Hawks on a national broadcast. (Again, baring a marque name acquired via sign and trade).

But with Smith, if I’m with TNT/ESPN, I might be thinking an early season Hawks home game against the Celtics looks like an attractive headlining match-up. An maybe, unlike the last five years, I think about putting them on a couple of nationally televised game throughout the season.

Without Smith? No way.

By doc

July 31, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

realist we all get it from a business standpoint, this team is too broke to go out and get a product that is competitive on the court. in a free marketplace this team would go under because of lack of interest and ticket sales. however, they are supported by a socialist setup that they can feed on the bigger wealthier society and try to play by a standard of rules that is in their favor or so they thought they. so it is not a true business model only run as though it were a business. it is an investment where they get group dividends and their own profits based on how well they run their business. not quite multi-level marketing but again out of the norm of the true market place and the types of demands inherent for it. they also got left behind in their own complacency thinking they controlled all the variables.

yeah, i understand the marketpace and the lack of action. though i havent been alone in my stance, it has been my primary reason to say the hawks and management would not carry through on their suggestion (i wont even use promise because i knew it was false advertising) that their priority was to sign the joshes. chills wanted a fair offer and one done in a manner that was timely to him while he had alternative wouldnt we all and dont we seek that for ourselves in this marketplace when we can. it is essentially what we all want in a free society of capitalism.

the hawks were left with their pants down as they didnt really respect chills or the possible opportunities out there, their bad as there is no other way to put it. now, in the process they havent even respected their own resolve to do the right thing, the right thing for their fan base and have lost credibility within the fan base and the league. those are huge losses when by business standards you misrepresent YOUR BRAND. no marketing expert or even the lowest little executive mba program would suggest doing it the way the hawks have done it.

realist, the only business principle to know is one that is very simple and in your bluff and puff is simply stated they are way too broke to handle this in any other way than to undercut the market and value for their two properties. maybe it was in hoping that no one would take note. guess what? it failed. it is well stamped out there that the hawks brand has been damaged when the WHOLE WORLD sees the headline HAWKS LOSE CHILDRESS. that from a busines standpoint is very damaging.

please continue on but please dont admonish folks for not knowing business. ando spelled it out several times but folks thought he was mockng them in their enthusiasm when he was just being the messenger. some say they are just dirt cheap. dude we all get it.

realist, funny chills got it quite well himself and was probably the first and looked out well for his own business even though folks tried to put their dirty little spin on it that he didnt want to compete. that in itself was an interesting phenomenon and spin and is the type of hype that tries to demean the other josh.

realist, granny (YOUR HAWKS) continues her spiral down the drain; just this time it maybe more than her vital organ the liver. it involves her heart, too, if you catch my drift. no it is not a business term but may be more relevant than any business term you can think of. miracles happen just not buying it or certainly not betting on it. stories are also relevant to business

now they demean their own brand further in josh maybe the heart and liver, who they have marketed around by making him into a poster boy for how not to run an organization and batting .1000 for the summer in losing two of their most talented products, home grown no less all the while saying it was the utmost priority to perform. just plain brand deformation.

market value is a misnomer from a business standpoint in your terms realist. while we can all see some norm, your hawks cant live up to it because of the way they have handled their business which was to get involved in a very damaging lawsuit. please dont act like it was thrust upon them. that decision in itself was probably more driven by individual or collective ego than business minds as they animosity festered over all star ticket entitlement rather than collective business acumen. in their business, they get to say since we cant afford to pay by the norm your true market values is less than what the perceived norm is, take it or leave it or find another offer. one of the joshes has and shoud be lauded for it rather than derided because he played by the rules.

right now both sides have time on their side because to move faster would not help anything as they hope and pray something like devine intervention will right the ship on both sides like a serious injury to a player on a team that truly wants tand feels a need to compete hereby changing the market place . right now that might be their only way out without losing return on their investment another term brought up by ando and ignored as a business concept. we get it realist but your comments are relevant and food for thought. thanks. b t w, i am sure by previous comments sautee gets the business side of this as well but he can answer directly to you.

deng is neither the guard or big you speak of but gets 80 mil, what dont you get realist form the comments above. either you are broke, pretend to be or are not. the only three questions ticket buyers ned to resolve.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

doc you bring up really good points as usual. The key to making the deal is the actual budget that the ASG is locked into for the upcoming season. I don’t know what it is and can accept that it should be private info to keep them competitive. I wonder if they can afford the current market rate contract for Josh? In that Forbes article is interesting that by a VERY large margin the Bulls bring in more operating income than any other team ($59.3 mil vs 39.2 mil for 2nd place Pistons.) If you have money, it is easier to put $80 mil on the table for Deng.

Ando you make me laugh with the jersey thing. I agree that there are not waves of Morris & Evans fans fighting to get their jerseys, but it is a form of revenue that the average fan can understand. The ASG pulled the big jersey card this past season with the new uniforms. Maybe I get that Cenk Akyol jersey this year. LOL

While some folks won’t attend if Smith goes and gets replaced with D-League Don and Ernie Euro, much of the season ticket push was done before free agency started (March-June). They also brought the cheap seats up to a more standard pricing (those 199 season tix are now 440). The 999 seat enticement brought folks like me into the lower level.

If the team falls apart, the owners probably take a hit in the 09-10 season. If they improve, they get more walk up ticket revenue. On a relative basis, the team has struggled with attendance for a long time, so there is downside risk, but it’s not like Philips was regularly full in Dec-Mar.

I do agree that there is a momentum opportunity for the fans and ownership that erodes when familiar players leave. Josh is their best free marketing due to the highlights he gets them on TV. While Al’s contributions are great, they often don’t make sports highlights. When your games are not on national TV, you need something to attract the soft fan that might spend money on something else if the team is not interesting.

The odd part of the ASG thing to me is that they could be in a much better PR position if it looked like they were trying to sign him (and had the same hardball tactics.) I mentioned it before—it’s like they want to push the restaurant as much as possible for a better deal. Even if they get it, I wonder what the folks in the back will do to their food.

OLE

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this

Mr Smoot One thing that rings true for the Hawks that was also a factor in the Chills to Greece situation.

Chills knows that he got overpaid/above market rate to go to Greece. He said yesterday that he will make 5 yrs of NBA pay in 3 yrs over there.

It’s similar to our free agent situation. The only free agents that have been attracted to this team in the past several years are those who thought they would get that extra pay to come to a team that wasn’t very attractive.

If there is a major shift in relative value of the Euro vs US dollar that favors the dollar, Chills can opt to return to the US. He has that option each year of the contract.

Good financial CRAP for Josh C.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

chuckw The Hawks don’t get national games in the regular season now. It has been several years since they showed up on TNT or ESPN. While Josh made it more likely that they would get on TV, losing him leaves the team no worse off in this regard than in the past.

The ASG needs to identify some revenue upsides and use them. Letting the main marketing guy (Lou DePaoli) go in early July leaves yet another hole in a key position.

Ando I forgot to mention before, I am only 99.98% confident that concession prices will be higher as well. They also have pulled back on the parking deal that goes with higher priced season tickets. For all the minor changes they are making and with Chills departure, you would think there’s money for Smith. Then again the CFO (Bill Duffy) left at the same time as Bernie Mullins. hmmmm

Somehow, more revenue still get us back to PAIN.

By B.A.ToDa

July 31, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

I thought by judging off of last season’s success that Josh was our 2nd option? He fell 2nd in just about everything but Blocks. And I do understand that if he does sign that 1 year qualify out best choice is to trade him sometime during the season because we know that he will be gone by this time next season. And Marvin does have potential still. I think he had a good season last year. I’d hate to get rid of him or Josh but if we have to it’d be Marvin.

And people saying Josh is out “Highlight Factory” which is true, if we lose Josh then Marvin would have to take over in that position. This team right now is just blessed to have such young talent whom all have contracts needing working starting this summer. We’re gonna have to face the fact that we Will lose some1 because we can’t keep all these young players. We already lost Childress.

And I wonder if the Greece team never showed up if Childress would still be unsigned and basically in the same positition Smith is in right now. This ur boy ToDa

By SSI Fan

July 31, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

For anyone interested ESPN2 is now showing the USA-Turkey exhibition basketball game. The guard the Hawks drafted a few years ago is playing for Turkey.

By Sautee

July 31, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this

MannyT

Now I’m done with that deal…moving on with the Seussical…I meant what I said and I said what I meant. I responded to what I saw. no big deal.

ROFL!

By Ken Stricikland

July 31, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

I had a thought that, hopefully, might explain the inactivity of the SAASG(the might be nothing more than wishfull thinking).

Let’s suppose they’ve held off on signing Smoove because they wanted to lockup FA’s like Morris and Evans before resigning their own FA’s. That seems to be what other teams are doing. Almost immediately after signing outside FA’s, these teams suddenly reached agreement with their own RFA’s. Hopefully, this is why we haven’t signed Smoove and he hasn’t forced the hand of the SAASF by pushing the issue of a one yr tender to this point.

JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT. HOPEFULLY, IT’S THE MEAL WE’VE ALL BEEN HOPING FOR.

By B.A.ToDa

July 31, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

chuckw/deadjournalist finally some1 realizes the impact of losing Smith (really both Josh’s) does to this team marketing wise. I guarantee you by the way the Boston season played out the Hawks are a lock for atleast 5-7 National TV games this coming season. Look at that Golden State team 2 seasons ago after their playoff apearance. Now, we didn’t win our serious but we still showed the media how good the ratings were for our series. We lose Smith with no1 in return we’ll only see these Hawks on FSN or Turner South- that’s if you’re living in GA.

But even without Smith I say we should get atleast 2 National TV games this year- even tho Phillips Arena will be dead without the 2 Josh’s here and no big name players in return.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

Sautee What can I say except to put another Suessism out there.

Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.

SSI Fan I meant to catch a part of that game, but I missed it. Looking at the box score it looks like Cenk was the man for Turkey.

Totally unrelated—20 Mil to stay away. WOW

Wild times in big money sports.

OLE

By richbrave

July 31, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

drmaryb:

My lady. I thought you had moved on and those of us here were ditched and left for dead on the side of the road. How you been. Missed your banter. The place seemed empty without you. Kinda’ like PHILLIPS withiut HORFORD,SMITH and the rest of your FAB FOUR. Sorry, I’m in the early to bed early to rise mode at the moment and missed your post last night.

By Sautee

July 31, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

doc

Terrific post!

And yes, I’d have to say that I get the business side more than he gets the basketball side.

HB Ando

Your post as well, was spot on.

I’ve been saying all summer that the ASG apparently fails to realize that if they lose Smoove, attendance WILL drop.

I just wonder if there’s some advantage for February to de-value the product before the divorce.

Stranger things have happened.

By HHoops

July 31, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Ken Strickland

I think you are right! I need some help here Manny T, but I believe the NBA rules allow a team to go over the soft cap to resign their own players but not other players. If that is the case, then the Hawks were forced to wait to sign their own RFA’s if they were also trying to sign other players to better their team.

I’m sorry guys, but there was no way that anyone saw this Europe option coming for Chills. His own agent said so himself! Chills gain and the Hawks lose. That’s one of those deals where you chalk it up to experience and make sure that you don’t make that same mistake again. Once that deal happened, the Hawks had to wait to see if there was a Mo Evans or R. Morris deal out there. There still may be another one of those cheap deals still coming before Smooth is signed.

The Hawks have waited this long to resign Smooth, they might as well wait a little longer and see if there are other signings or trades they can make to improve the team. These signings or trades may or may not include Smooth.

I predict, this will not end soon. Smooth will get his money, but he will have to be patient. He needs to get over getting his feelings hurt and realize this is a business. Sometimes it takes longer to get your business in order especially if you lose a 30% partner.

Whether the Hawks sign Smooth or not, all Hawks fans want a better team than we had this past season. I wonder how the Hawks fans would feel right now if we had gotten sweep by Boston. If we don’t improve this team, we will not even get the chance next year to be sweep in a series!

By HHoops

July 31, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Sekou,

Which happens first in Febrauary, the trade deadline or the ASG ruling???

By Maurice

July 31, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

Ok Hawks fans, we looking good right now with the addition of Evans and Morris. Josh Chilldress is gone. He did what was best for him and that is always good. He will be dearly missed. Now for Josh Smith. He is not the Hawks go to guy, first option or second option. He is a role player. So Spirit think about it. We have the opportunity to sign a role player that puts up numbers on a avg. of 18pts,8rebs,2.5blks,1.5asst at the tender age of 22. I know that he avg. 3tos a game as well. But thats way you have a coaching staff. Pay him! He is worth it now and will be dominate in the near future. Now lets look at the real problem. We have Bibby and Acie at the 1, Joe and Evans at the 2, Josh, Big Al,ZaZa and Morris at 4&5. All we are missing is a Bonified 3. Marvin is not it. He is a good person, a smooth shooter at times. He is too slow in his movement, lacks creativity and the ability to drive the ball. His ball handling and defence is mediocore at best. Therfore, it is time to conduct another block buster trade using Marvin, Speedy, Richardson and Solo for the likes of ( Igudala, Prince, J. Howard, Amarie and one reserve.). I had Ron Artest in the mix before Houston made their move. We need to keep West, Studmire as reserves and sign Othello Hunter as well. You do this and we are ready to compete. Sign Josh Smith first then make your trade moves. Do it now before other players are locked. How do you like these line ups. Bibby, JJ, josh, Al and Amarie. Bibby, Igudala, JJ, Josh and Al. Bibby, JJ, Prince, Josh and Al. Bibby, JJ, Howard, Josh and Al. Spirit it’s your move. Go Hawks!

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

Melvin, IT WAS’NT ABOUT THE MONEY? hahahahahahah!

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

And Melvin, what was his teammates supposed to say? You’re a freakin idiot for taking 30 million $, even though you could’nt have gotten it here? Of course theey’re going to support him. When you left your last job, did’nt your co-workers support your decision?

By SalimFan

July 31, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

Seems to me that Evans has his eye on a starting spot

Considering that he will be starting the first game of the season while Marvin serves his suspension. If he shows well he might just stay there. Marvin better watch out and come into camp with an upgraded game.

Also I’ve looked at some Luke jackson footage. The guy can ball. Was picked 10th in the 04’ draft. Just needs an oppourtunity. He played with Luke Ridnour at Oregon.

Thomas Gardner- I’ve been looking him up too. Always says the same thing. great shooter, need to work on ball handling skills. I think they will both be great additions to the bench. Along with Mario and whoever else (J-rich maybe). One things for sure, we’ll never run out of shooters again lol.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Salimfan, I think it was 6 yr 72 mill, with incentives that could earn him 80 for Deng.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

And Salimfan, remember, Deng is not a tweener. He’s a sf, PERIOD. And Chicago does’nt have another sf of his caliber on the roster. We supposedly have our PF of the future in Big Al(thats where Smoove played last year). So it’s a totally different situation.

By ray

July 31, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

chuckw/deadjournalist, a very good point. Of course, I don’t expect anti-Josh or pro-ASG types to understand it at all….

By SalimFan

July 31, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Leoul Deng is worth MORE than Josh Smith WTF??????

IN WHAT COUNTRY??? I’ll just assume that you’re talking about the British National Team.

Deng is a dime a dozen. Josh Smith cannot be adequately replaced so easily. Unless Elton Brand or KG is being offred up, there is no reason smoove shouldn’t get a fat paycheck. Smith wasn’t even asking for that rediculously inflated amount that Deng just recived. Deng can’t live up to that contract either. He’s not that good. He’s just another Kevin Durant/Rudy Gay type of player. 20ppg yeah, sure, but what else have you done for me lately…….It certainly doesn’t involve playing any defense.

3rd best player on our team??? You must’ve forgotten who showed up in the playoffs. It wasn’t Bibby.

Joe, Smoove, Bibby, Horford. That’s the food chain. If you don’t beleive me you can check the STATS. If Smith leaves, say bye bye to Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby. They won’t want to stick around after a screw up of THIS magnotude happens. Not after the Childress Debacle.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

If Sund sees Horford as a PF, maybe he’s evaluating whether or not Smoove can play the sf position? Ever thought of that fellas? Remember he just got here, and the games he watched(playoffs), he saw Josh at the PF position.

By SalimFan

July 31, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

TB, Ignore that previous comment. I just saw your post lol…..Doesn’t Chicago have (whatshisface) Nocioni(Yeah thats his name lol), Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefalosha though??? Thats three other SF on their roster.

It doesn’t matter. The Bulls have tons ofCASH……thay can do what they want.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Bulls to offer Nocioni to Kings for Brad Miller. Sac is trying to unload salary. Maybe we could offer Smoove for Miller(center) and Garcia(shooter), IF WE THINK HE DOES’NT WANT TO BE HERE..

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Bulls to offer Nocioni to Kings for Brad Miller. Sac is trying to unload salary. Maybe we could offer Smoove and Claxton for Miller(center) and Garcia(shooter), IF WE THINK HE DOES’NT WANT TO BE HERE..

By nique

July 31, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

SalimFan, Horford is much better than Bibby.

Sekou how about some behind the scenes reporting on the Smoove situation? Or how about you do some digging and shed some light on why Childress wasn’t traded? Or who is the prime player in the player personel decisions at the ASG: Sund or Gearon?

By kirknga

July 31, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

Realist

Uh, don’t flatter yourself too much now.

You do your little post and run routine I stay and make my stand so what benefit comes from agreeing with you…NONE!

But kudos for you, you’ll get points for an anti-Kirk comment….totally unnecessary to do so, but you scored..talking about suck up that’s you bigtime!

Thanks, but no thanks? Huh?

If you noticed, I never asked for, begged, pleaded for, any response from you so why call attention to the fact you didn’t respond to my comments….yep..you’re trying to make yourself look good by giving me grief

All for what? I said I agreed with you about something?

It’s the whole well at least I’m not Kirk mentality! Sad.

You originated the “two camps” premise and it’s not just a “description”, it has meaning and relevance specific to this blog as well. Now you want to blame me because someone called you on something you said?

I stand up for my positions and I don’t ask for or need, anyone’s help in case you haven’t noticed.

I also don’t hide behind someone else if I get challenged.

Those are some weak comments by you, I’m disappointed. Why don’t you just stick to little post-and-run routine and stop avoiding responsibility for your words by trying to be all hard on me.

Answer the challenge by standing on your own two feet and not by trying to do so on my back!

Thanks Again!

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Thomas is a pf and Nocioni is a TWEENER, Salimfan. And btw, they’re in talks with the Kings to move that TWEENER to Sac-town.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Thomas is a pf and Nocioni is a TWEENER, who plays MOSTLY PF, Salimfan. And btw, they’re in talks with the Kings to move that TWEENER to Sac-town.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Manny, I WOULD ALSO RATHER PAY SMOOVE THAN MARVIN. For some unknown reason you think I would’nt. I did’nt start calling him “Goofy” for nothing. lol!!

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

It’s all good Ray,Manny. Like Sekou said, we’re all just a bunch of Hawks fans, AGREEING TO DISAGREE. lol!

By wtf

July 31, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this

Actually Tyrus Thomas is more of a tweener than Nocinoi. Thomas does not have a set position. He is a poor mans Josh Smith. Josh Smith for Miller and Garcia? That is not a good trade. We trade a 22 year future all star for a aging big man and a role player? Brad Milller’s skill set would not be on full display playing with Woodson and his weak so called offense. If we offered the Kings that deal they would not hesitate to pull the trigger. We would be on the short end once again of a trade. We would have one horrible defensive team. A center in Miller who plays no d and a pg in Bibby who plays no d. We would have to outscore everybody because we damn sure would not be able to keep them from scoring with a lineup of Bibby, Duck, and Miller.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Ando, Some fans around here dont really care about the WOW factor. For example, they were calling for MV7’s head, even before the dog mess. But your’re right, It will probably impact ticket sales and what not. Look at the Dome.

By ray

July 31, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Terrell, I hear ya. A bunch of impatient Hawks fans at that (well some of us, like yours truly). But are you diggin’ what I said about Marvin? Even Josh Smith fans like myself wouldn’t be hollering quite as loud if Marvin’s game was more complete. And nobody would laugh when mentioning him as a 20 ppg scorer. He may get there yet, but he’s gotta expand that game. Here’s to hoping he does so and developing into the kind of player who rightfully expects to get a 65 million dollar contract!

And in other news….

Wow. Was that a drama-filled post I just saw without a single hint of basketball related content? From the “anti-drama” dude himself ? ROFL! Probably the funniest thing I’ll read all day…

By ray

July 31, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

wtf, we’d be Sacramento….without the offense, LOL!

terrell, I think guys were calling for MV7’s head because in the last season, there were far less wins and fewer WOW plays than before. People got tired of dude not learning to make other good plays. He had one really good WOW play, and that would be the impossible scramble/run for big yardage. After teams got wise and started using solid schemes to stop him, all his scrambling was for nothing. And he still wasn’t learning to pass consistently to anybody outside of Alge Crumpler. I think a lot of people got sick of it after a while. With Vick, despite his incredible athleticism, there were more bad plays and non-plays than there were good plays after a while. The last season magnified all of that (and losing a LOT Of games never helps).

With Josh, it’s different. At least there is a reasonable debate as to whether he has more good effect on the game than bad. Of course, in my personal opinion, there’s not much to debate, but we’re not going there right now, LOL!

By kirknga

July 31, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

obession

By Melvin

July 31, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

Terrell, point taking on the teammate support but I notice you omitted that JChill also said the ASG were dragging their feet to get his deal done. In which lead him to seek other options (Greece). As so many here has said, had the ASG showed him some love in the begin of FA period he would still be a Hawk today.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Wow. Just Wow.The Hawks were forced to wait to sign their unresticted FA’s if they were also trying to sign other players to make the team better. And you guys were bashing the BASG for not locking down Smoove and Chills already. Look for Smoove to be on the dotted lines by next week sometime, IF THEY PLAN ON KEEPING HIM.

By kgbsfinst

July 31, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

I just heard that the Spurs are trying to trade Duncan for Prince! When the Spurs brass were asked about it they responded….”Were trying to win a championship, and we realized Duncan isnt on the olympic team, but Prince is. Doesnt that mean Prince is better than Duncan………right?”

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

sALIMFAN,

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

Salimfam, Luel might be worth more TO THE BULLS, than Smith is worth TO THE HAWKS, considering we supposedly have our PF of the future. I never said Smith was worth more or less than Deng as a player. You have to look at the makeup of each team in considering one’s worth.

By Sautee

July 31, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

kirknga

What does “obession” mean?

I looked and my dictionary goes from obesity to obey with nothing between.

And you gotta admit that Ray’s correct. That was a LOT of drama, for you. ;-)

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Salimfan that Amarie thing was meant for Maurice. lol!! I guess he meant Amare? Amare for Duck. lol!!! Wow! Just Wow!

By SB

July 31, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

When you say Prince is on the olympic team, you gotta rember that team was put together 2 yrs ago. It has nothing to do with who’s the better playr now.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Thomas plays the PF position, and nowhere else. Nocioni plays both positions, but mainly PF. So how is Thomas more of a tweener? Not that it really matters. Just curious.

By Melvin

July 31, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Remember guys like Duncan, KG and others said they were not going to play in the Olympics two years ago. And I don’t blame them. Let’s some others players have a chance to represent their country….

By doc

July 31, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

KICK!!!

heh heh, just kidding dude and you know who i mean. heh heh

hang on there the tide will turn about 2010 or so dude when you can proudly say i told you so. ;-))

By doc

July 31, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

KICK!!!

heh heh, just kidding dude and you know who i mean. heh heh

hang on there the tide will turn about 2010 or so dude when you can proudly say i told you so. ;-))

By ray

July 31, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Hilarious hypocrisy

By SalimFan

July 31, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

TB, Thats why I said forget about that one. That post was actually for Mr.Smoot(Yes i know i’m very behiend) But since you were talking aboutbthe same thing it just happend to fit lol. I was back-tracking and should have put a name on it.

With the way management is being run were all confused around here heh.

By Melvin

July 31, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Just return from my first visit to the Falcons blog. Ruff stuff going on over there. Them Dirty Birds don’t play. I think I will refrain from going back there again and I think Mark Bradley should do the same… heh,heh..

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

I heard Denver might be in the mix fellas. Kleiza and JR Smith for Smoove.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

terrell I was not trying to position your statements. I thought you had asked for comments (Question for everyone who thinks we should lock Smoove up long term for 65 to 70 mill bones at 4:28 PM on July 30) and I gave some. Later, you said you didn’t put it out there that way…no big deal because I was fine with what I said. I was not trying to peg you down on anything. I was trying to explain how I saw the situation with Josh as it may relate to him playing SF. That impacts Marvin. It’s all good on my end.

HHoops You are correct that a team should sign new players with available cap space, then sign its free agents that have Bird rights. However, given all the free agent signings we did, none would have impacted the cap. You could fit both Evans and Morris in under the MLE even if there were no cap space.

chuckw Once the ASG comes up with some new ways to market the team, you are right that guys like Al & Josh are great for those roles. Other things that get you positive visibility also help. Participating in All Star weekend helps, even if it’s on Friday or Saturday. Cameos on TV shows help. Contests (like bring a player to school) help. Jersey off your back more than once a year could help. Cross promotional suite life/experience Philips raffles/sales—hoops fans get unused suite for non hoops event and a visit from a player at the suite. More halftime entertainment based on fan participation games. Random prizes for purchases of certain items during the night. There are lots of ways to draw attention, the ASG needs them to also pull in revenue.

Once the ASG finishes decreasing the value of the team for the divorce, looks like there are some candidates out there to help them restore the image of an interesting owner. Don’t know if he’s got the cash to fill Belkin’s slot, but he seems to be worth a look. Brandt Andersen D-League Owner

As I get my Suess on once again, looking inward—this one applies to me for sure. The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you’ll go.

OLE

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

We’d probably have to throw in Speedy. We can only take back so much in salary if we sign-and-trade Smoove only.

By RAD

July 31, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

Hawks Feelin’ Randy Sekou Smith of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports today that former Knick Randolph Morris was signed by the Hawks to a one-year contract for the NBA minimum. Morris is tight with Josh Smith (those two and Dwight Howard were the kings of the Atlanta high school basketball scene back in the day) so not only is he happy he found another NBA job, he landed with one of his buddies in his home town.

I’m told Smith isn’t going anywhere, by the way. He’ll eventually sign there, it’s a matter of how long of a committment will Atlanta agree to make with him. Dude is an amazing athletic talent with a ton of potential, but I don’t believe he’s someone you build around. You build with him, yes. But he’s not a centerpiece at this point of his career.

As for Morris, let’s see if he finally gets some burn and what he does with it when he gets it. I think he can be a servicable NBA player. He has good footwork and strength. His timing always was off as a Knick but that’s mostly because he rarely played. Tough to judge him on what he showed as a Knick.

We talked a lot about this last season and Morris and Renaldo Balkman are two prime examples of it: the Knicks under Isiah Thomas was not a healthy environment for developing young players. David Lee emerged mainly on his own discipline and drive. Nate Robinson, to me, should be a better player with better coaching, but he’s another one who has started to grasp the difference between throwing up shots and calling it a warmup to making actual basketball moves that he would in a game and studying other players. He still has a long ways to go.

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Posted by Alan Hahn on July 30, 2008 9:16 AM | Permalink

By HHoops

July 31, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

Terrell Barron

We need Hilario Nene and JR Smith in that deal, then we will send them Speedy and J. Smith. Two starters for J. Smith, now that’s what I want to see!

Manny T

Are you telling me that the Hawks still have cap space?

Also, if they do trade J. Smith, would the contracts that they take on with the trade count against the cap just like they signed their own RFA?

By The Flash

July 31, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this

Can someone, anyone, please verify for me that Ando ain’t my boy Belkin.

Terrific stuff, Andoman, and you too, Doc. The rest of you guys also. They cannot let this guy go, and if they hang it out to dry, aka Mr. Harrington, well, that isn’t phathomable, is it? If Doc is on the money about the money, who knows.

Like Ando, I have often pointed out the shortcomings I saw in Smith’s approach to the game. However, what I saw against the Celtics took my freakin breathe away. The kid has earned it, and they need to pay him. Period.

By B.A. ToDa

July 31, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

This ur boy ToDa with the update. Still not looking good for Josh Smith. And i hear Iguodala is about to resume talking again on Monday. I’ll post the link if i can. But Iggy and Josh Smith are the last 2 Big Time/Game Changing Performers still unsign.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

HHoops I have not checked since they signed Morris & Evans. They should still have some space available be it in the MLE or otherwise.

They can sign Smith for whatever amount they want up to the league max for a 4 yr player which is 25% of the cap.

If they want to trade Smith, it has to be a sign & trade (S&T). You cannot otherwise trade free agents. The messy part of S&T is that Smith then becomes a base year compensation player. In a nutshell his trade salary value is usually 1/2 the actual 1st yr value of the contract until the later of 6 months from contract signing or June 30th.

So if the 1st yr of the contract is worth 10 mil, pretend that his salary is 5 mil for any trade that might happen until July 1, 2009. (Side note—that’s why the Indiana/Portland draft day trade wasn’t official for 2 weeks. I think Ike Diogu was a BYC guy until July 1 and then you had to wait until trading was allowed again.)

OLE

By HHoops

July 31, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this

Manny T

Let me see if I understand what you are telling me. If the Hawks sign Smooth for 12 M and trade him for another player in a sign & trade deal, Smooth’s value will only be 6 M? So the Hawks will have to trade for a player who has a contract that is worth only 1/2 as much as Smooth’s is?

By J-rough

July 31, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

SO being a BYC guy Smith is worth 5-6.5 mil in salary trades? what can we get for that? up and comers? maybe Bwright and belinelli would work with warriors? who else fits that bill that is realistic? I keep thinking of guards, but that is not our real need maybe a couple rookies? darrell arthur and O.J. Mayo, they probably wouldn’t do that but you never know, love and a bench guy? help me out please, I really am a fan of Bwright, and am unsure of belinelli, who lese you on rookie contracts could we get, as BYC will dictate thats all we can do

By ToeKnee

July 31, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

Ok, I know there are a lot of newcomers, but there’s a few things that need to be said for all of us who have watched this team rebuild again and again, and finally thought that this was it.

1)I thought the “plan” was to build a core and let it grow together. Ok, thats a good plan. But now it seems you are neglecting to keep players we have developed right as they approach their prime. I understand building and then at some point trading to really push for a championship, but I just don’t hear a good enough argument from anywhere as to why you would want to let either/any of our young guys go. especially when you get absolutely nothing in return for a four-year top 5 pick investment.

2)This is sending the worst kind of message to all parties involved. Right now your entire fan base is living in turmoil, and while that might not matter to you, newly minted prince of Hawktown rick sund, it would matter to anyone who knows how to run a quality organization. This organization is sending out a clear message that it does not care about its players or its fans. and that it will continue to conduct business how it sees fit, with no regard to its fans or players.

3) and finally, this organization has left open the possibility of the fact that you really a)might not know what you’re doing at all, or b)are just trying to play it as cheap as possible. in either case, winning games=a winning scenario for everyone. i cant, with any amount of rational thought, believe that the asg would rather lose games with a cheap team, than win with an expensive one. but i’ll tell you this, as its been said many times before, this is a business, and you will have to pick one of the two. you cant have your cake and eat it too, you cant play it cheap, and expect a championship. money will have to be spent to win games and make more money, and its up to the asg as to how badly they want to succeed here in atlanta.

and lastly, i just dont see how you dont give both joshes contracts!! it makes no sense! honestly, if you need room later you think either of those guys are untradeable!?!?!?! you are crazy. keep them here and go from there. too late for one…..dont let it happen to the other

By wtf

July 31, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Tyrus Thomas is a tweener. Ask most Bull fans and they will tell you the same. He is the poor mans Josh Smith. He does not have the ideal size to play pf but does not have the ballhandling and shooting to play sf. So he is best used at pf because of his athelticism and qickness. Does that sound like sonebody on the Hawks? The guy is playing pf mostly because what he cant do. And from what I have seen of him he is looking like Stromile Swift Jr

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

They probably wont move Nene. They losy Camby, remember.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

They probably wont move Nene. They lost Camby, remember.

By ray

July 31, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Today In The News

Sources say the Washington Generals were offering a sign and trade deal for Atlanta Hawk forward Josh Smith. According to reports, the offer included a stolen Harlem Globetrotters jersey autographed by Meadowlark Lemon, cash considerations, and two players to be named later.

One Washington Generals spokesperson, who only spoke on condition of anonymity, had this to say:

” People say Josh Smith only dunks and makes the occasional highlight reel play. Well that’s exactly what we’re looking for here! We’ve been getting our cans kicked by the Harlem Globetrotters for I don’t know HOW long. Josh gives us a chance.”

Sources later revealed that the deal was pulled off of the table, due to unreasonable demands by the Generals. Michael Gearon’s aide had this to say:

“Look, we’re not going to take back bad contracts, and I think we’ve established that already. But we’re not giving anything away for free, either. Do you know what they wanted? A select pair from the exclusive Josh Childress shoe collection! Apparently they saw the article (was it earlier this year or last year?) in the AJC, and decided they wanted an autographed pair! How are we supposed to be able to do that NOW?”

Wow. Who would’ve known that would be a deal killer? Ehhh, it’s all Greek to me…

In other news, there was a reported disturbance in camp 2, reported by Blog Crimes Unit investigators. Or was that camp 1? We’re not sure. Either way, apparently camp founder Realist has taken exception to camp director kirknga for comments made while occupying the camp soapbox. In turn, camp director kirknga responded with a scathing public reply. Meanwhile, camp founder Realist has yet to reply. Perhaps this is a good thing. Daily News reporters tried to get a statement from the camp director but only received some mumbled reply about “don’t like drama” and “obession.” Yeah, we don’t know what that second one’s about either, but we’re taking it at face value…whatever that means.

Denver Nuggets forward/center Nene Hilario has been the subject of obscure and likely false trade rumors of late. He could not be reached for comment, as he was in another part of Colorado, filmming a movie called Broke Leg Mountain…apparently a true story. Hilario will play himself in this film as well as the sequel, Curse of the Golden Contract.

Rumor has it that Rockets players are worried about dealing with the almost newest Rocket-Ron Artest. Some have speculated that Yao Ming’s easy going demeanor will not stand the test of, well…Artest. Ming can’t stand up to him? I’d argue that it’s the other way around. After all, how intimidating can you be when you’re staring right at somebody’s nipples? And just think, if Artest looks up, he can count all the boogers in Yao’s nose. That has to lighten the moment….

Ben Gordon’s agent has been more or less quoted as saying that his client deserves to be the highest paid player on the team because he scores the most. Yeah, well how come he doesn’t start, can you answer that? Gordon’s agent is Raymond Brothers. Hey, don’t they make kids board games or something? Geez, they’ll let anybody be a sports agent these days.

Of course, we’ve also heard that they’ll let anybody be NBA team owners these days too….

And that’s all….

By jhan

July 31, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this

Manny - I like the divorce analogy. What’s happening right now could be as simple as that. Trying like heck to not give your ex as little as possible.

It makes as much sense as anything else I’ve heard.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

I think so Hhops. Thats why we would probably include Claxton in a sign-and-trade for Smith. Thats 6 MORE million. Thats probably why we showcased Claxton a little bit in Utah. And wtf, I said it did’nt matter anyway. Who cares about Thomas and Nocioni? And btw, does’nt Nocioni play MOSTLY pf? And some SF? I’d call that a tweener. I’ve NEVER seen Thomas at any other position but PF. Smoove and Nocioni can play both forward positions, while Thomas plays PF only. Who’s the tweener?

By ray

July 31, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

Jhan, it could be the answer. Sucks, though…and it ain’t like it just happened to them.

By ray

July 31, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

stay tuned for next week’s episode of the “The Tweener”.

By Mike

July 31, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

Ray, you tried so hard with your daily news, but I did nto laugh once.

By Melvin

July 31, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Dang, Sund and the BASG didn’t take long to reissue Josh Childress jersey… I guess they were too cheap to use another jersey…

By doc

July 31, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

ray you get a demerit because mike didnt laugh and he felt you owed it to him. shame on you.

ding!

By HHoops

July 31, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Manny T

Next question-what happens if a team does a sign & trade with another team and both teams are dealing with a RFA? Ex. The Hawks sign & trade J. Smith for Iggy of Philadelphia. I would assume that both teams can take back in salary what they traded away. If this is true, then the only team that the Hawks could get a fair S&T with is the Phillies.

By Ken Stricikland

July 31, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this

I’m a little concerne about the Morris signing. The SAASG went to great lengths to resign HC Woodson, knowing his reluctance to utilize players on his bench. He’s openly demonstrated his reluctance to utilize the 2 BIGs already on his bench(Zaza and Solomon). So why sign another BIG that hasn’t accomplished any more than Solomon, and less than Zaza?

And, what makes them think Woodson’s approach towards Morris will be any different than the approach he’s taken so far towards Solomon or Zaza? What makes them think they can get more production out of Morris than they could have gotten out of Solomon? If these clowns signed Morris thinking he might produce more if consistently given more mins, then why didn’t they feel the same approach might possibly have held true for Solomon?

By ray

July 31, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this

Mike, I forgot to mention, this is close-captioned for the humorously challenged. G’day!

By Nahjay Davnpooh

July 31, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

sekou smith could very well be the most irresponsible, unprofessional beatwriter in america. it would be one think if he were a columnist, but he’s not. he’s paid to report, but all he does is constantly inject his bias into his reporting, and his idiot readers buy into what he’s saying, thus, smith is corrupting the fan base.

here is a great example:

What exactly needs to get done remains a mystery.

from his report of evans’ news conference upon signing with atlanta

that is the most biased, slanted comment you could possibly make in a NEWS STORY, not to mention you follow that comment with a quote from josh smith’s agent.

unbelievable.

By ray

July 31, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

Doc, I didn’t know Mike was in the audience. Does that count?

Oh well, it’s a hobby, not an obession.

By Irate Hawks fan

July 31, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

HeySekou, Can we get a freaking update on the Hawks?

What is Joe doing? What is Marvin doing? Is Woodson making any adjustments? What is the latest contract offer? What has Acie Law done since RMR?

Just because there’s no alleged Smoove news, doesn’t mean you can just go on vacation.

Christ.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this

Ken, quit trying to find reasons to be negative. lol!! WOODY WILL PLAY HIS BENCH MORE THIS YEAR. He has to. Bench development was one of the 1st things that Sund discussed with Woody. His excuse was he was fighting for his job(Playoff spot), so he had to play his best players, toward the end of the season. And Acie was hurt last year, so I guess I can give Woody a pass on him. As far as Solo and Mario are concerned, maybe he just did’nt have confidence in their play down the stretch. Who knows? But I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt this year, when it comes to bench play. Chills is gone, so those min have to go to somebody. Right?

By ray

July 31, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

Nahjay Davnpooh, how much did Sund pay you to write that? Guess what. Sekou gets more hits on this blog than anybody on God’s green earth. The blog makes it into HoopsHype. So instead of trying to destroy it, you post counts as….you guessed it…ONE MORE HIT! Waaaaahahahahahahahahhaaaaaaa!

And just think, when you post in response to this, whether it be under another name or not…that’s ANOTHER HIT! Aaaaahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!

By ray

July 31, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

guys, i am resigning from this board.

I have no life and nobody here likes me except doc and terrell barron (what a pathetic excuse for terrell brandon).

plz accept my lameness as i have no friends

By ELO

July 31, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

Most irresponsible beat writer in America? Do you read every beat writer in America you moron? for all that bashing, where are you posting, right here on Sekou’s page. Take your fake punk-a* somewhere else, sht for brains. How many articles have you written. These players like privacy its the offseason. You want everybody following you every move? Not that anybod cares what you do.

By wtf

July 31, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

Let me just paste some scouting reports on the Tweener Thomas since my fellow hawk fan terrell is having a hard time understanding what im saying..

Tyrus Thomas Scouting Report:

InsideHoops.com: Tyrus Thomas is a super-athletic tweener with big-time hops who physically is somewhere between Shawn Marion and Stromile Swift. Long athlete. He runs, jumps, rebounds, blocks and dunks. Also can hit some mid-range jumpers. Will be one of the most athletic players of his size in the NBA. Still developing and refining his basketball skills, especially offensively. Likely NBA position is forward. He’s the size of a small forward but he plays like a power forward. To become a true NBA four, he needs to bulk up in a big way.

Weaknesses: Needs to add weight to his frame – is still too thin to play the post in the NBA. Doesn’t have very deep range on his jump shot – only shot (and hit) one 3-pointer this season. Still very inexperienced – was a medical redshirt his first year in school and then played one season – and game is still raw.

Beyond his bulk, his size also isn’t 100% ideal for an NBA power forward, although his terrific length and athleticism helps him out greatly in this area

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 31, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

“that is the most biased, slanted comment you could possibly make in a NEWS STORY, not to mention you follow that comment with a quote from josh smith’s agent.”

He is writing a story about how Mo Evans took 90 seconds to mention Josh Smith in a press conference, underscoring how obvious it seems to everyone that a deal needs to get done with Josh, and he’s not allowed to mention a comment by Josh Smith’s agent?

The only idiot reader here is you. Get an original screen name dumbazz.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 31, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this

I agree with wtf… y’all who talk about Josh Smith having zero basketball IQ need to look at Tyrus Thomas, because that’s what Josh would be if he actually had zero basketball IQ. Tyrus Thomas is an athlete. That’s it. He’s not a passer, he’s not a scorer, and even his rebounding and defense is predicated entirely on his athleticism. He would be a pretty sorry replacement for Josh.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this

I have missed the news. Thanks ray. I won’t say I laughed, but my humor emotions rose beyond market value while my frown turned upside down ;-)

jhan It could be War of the Roses, basketball edition. Per ray’s response…sometimes divorce drags out and gets longer and uglier both in business and real life.

HHoops, J-rough You are correct in your 7 PM understanding of BYC. However, around 10 PM you are trying to find the loophole in the exception regarding the unusual circumstance. If you actually click on the blue part of my 6:24 post, there is an example of exactly what you are asking about. Quick answer—that loophole does not exist. No trade for Iggy or any other RFA unless you are doing some major Jedi Mind Trick capology with multiple players or teams.

Now to what I REALLY wanted to post. I just listened to Josh Childress’s 790 the zone interview. It’s in 2 parts if you download it. A little different from the national ones. The local guys pushed him a bit and he gave frank, but polite answers. I think I’m buying an Olympiacos jersey before I buy a Hawks jersey.

After you hear it, you maight be more willing to admit that relationships matter in negotiations. Because Sund has no history with these guys, his approach seems to have hurt more than helped.

REAL SUPPLE! (Sund’s Undercover Passivity Populates Lower Expectations)

By Nahjay Davnpooh

July 31, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this

hey ray,

i’m not concerned about how many hits this site gets, or that his reports make it to hoopshype. given the hawks free agents, it would be expected that his work make it to that page.

the problem is, he’s not doing the job of a journalist. he’s injecting his own personal bias’ into his work and presenting it as fact, which is pathetic and irresponsible.

and you can say “ha ha, i got you, you’re posting on this blog.”

unfortunately, there is only one paper in atlanta, so, as a hawks fan, this blog is the only choice i have.

By MannyT

July 31, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

Freedom of choice - Atlanta Hawks Blog style

By doc

July 31, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this

manny t, thanks i was hoping someone would post it. will listen in the am.

ray even though i might like you, i am still not in your camp.

By terrell barron

July 31, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this

Hey Ray, I’m done with the Thomas/Nocioni debate. lol! And I’m not as worried about the Smoove thing as most of yall, but I must admit, I’m ready for something to happen. Either sign him, or do a sign-and trade. I’d hate to see Josh Smith in another uni,as everyonewould, but if we could get better by moving him, wehave to move him. PERIOD! Why could’nt it be Marvin, that we’re talking about? MARVIN for Josh Howard or MARVIN for B.Miller and Garcia? Would make things a lot easier. lol!! And btw, I cant play GM, if I dont know who’s on the roster. lol!!! And one more thing. I saw this trade on Hoopshype between the Clipeers and Hawks: Clippers get Smoove/Zaza/Speedy and Atlanta gets Camby/Mobley/pick Starters: Bibby/JJ/Duck/Horford/Camby 2nd team: Acie/Mobley/Evans/Othello Hunter/Randolph Morris with Mario, Thomas Gardner, Luke Jackson, Solo, and Justin Williams. Thoughts?

By MannyT

August 1, 2008 12:26 AM | Link to this

I feel like I’m playing with friendly dynamite.

terrell Mobley will be 33 in Sept and Camby is 34. That looks like a move for a team that has to win now because their window is closing.

I know Speedy’s knees are 50, but he’s only 30.

For all the grief that Zaza has gotten during his time in Atlanta, he’s a few months older than Solomon and Mario.

I think getting Mobley is a step in the wrong direction. He’s past his prime and Johnson & Evans will get all the minutes that he would have wanted (unless Woody hunkers down with the vets for his playoff run around Thanksgiving.)

Fear not, next summer all the buzz will be about teams willing to sign & trade for Marvin.

If Josh has to go, getting Camby and taking Speedy off the cap is good CRAP.

OLE

By MannyT

August 1, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this

Lou Williams gets his deal done.

Which RFA is next?

My guess from the top 10 is Smith!

J R Smith.

OLE

By MannyT

August 1, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this

new blog up

By Ken Stricikland

August 1, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

TERRELL BARRON-I’m not trying to be negative, although I can see how it could easily seem that way. I’m just trying to figure out want the he!! these morons(SAASG)are trying to accomplish. I can adjust to circumstances when I know what to expect , or I can see the logic behind it, even though I might not agree. But I can’t adjust to this total madness. I’m really hurting, and I want some answers or at least some idea of what’s going on.

Maybe I just need to back off and let this thing play out. There’s nothing any of us can say or do, other than start a massive letter writing(email)campaign to the SAASG to voice our collective displeasure with their mishandling of this franchise and the disdane it’s shown for us hardcore fans.

It’s one thing having to deal with a bad product on the court, which we’ve done for the last 9yrs. But when we finally get an exciting product that we can all get behind, we have to contend with the embarrassment and utter incompetence of an ownership group that’s begun to systematically destroy the product from within, much like themselves.

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF THESE SORRY “A—” SOBS, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By ctqbanks pqrtfd

November 13, 2008 7:28 AM | Link to this

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