Hawks

By doc

July 26, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

an interesting take on the euro raid:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Thoughts-on-the-Euro-Fever-2971/

By doc

July 26, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

repost from this am, minutes ago:

guys i pulled this up from draft express wanting to be objective in my impressions:

Josh Childress

Overview: A long, lanky swingman with a solid all-around skill set. Does not excel in any one particular aspect of the game. Possesses solid athleticism, but his great work-ethic and feel for the game makes this less conspicuous. Has put on some weight since coming into the League. Remains very skinny, which makes him a bit injury prone. Owns a huge wingspan. Displays high-character off the floor, something that became very clear during his collegiate career with the Stanford Cardinals. Won the PAC 10 Player of the Year Award in 2004. Inability to add significant bulk has limited his durability and effectiveness around the rim. Versatility, smarts and finesse make him a valuable asset. Is a restricted free agent this offseason, and should find a number of suitors around the League.

Offense: Has a very smooth offensive game, but is the owner of one of the League’s most awkward jump shots. Displays a major hitch in his jumper and releases it with minimal elevation. Knocks it down consistently enough not to not have to fix it. Scores efficiently, which is the result of great shot selection. Shows a deceptive first-step. Is able to attack the rim off the dribble, and sets his man up by moving well off the ball. Isn’t the most efficient finisher due to his lack of vertical explosiveness. Does a good job of using his length and crafty footwork to beat defenders to the rim or get to the line. Doesn’t pull up off the dribble very often, since he connects with those kinds of shots at a pedestrian rate. Shows range out to three-point range, but his form gives him a very small margin for error, which is represented in his three-point percentage. Finds his offense in transition situations and drives off the dribble, both of which embody his desire to run the floor and his capacity to handle the ball well. Has good court vision, passing ability, and decision-making skills. Doesn’t play all that much point-forward since Joe Johnson fills that role. Won’t light up the scoreboard, but is a consistent contributor that gets his baskets in the flow of the offense. Provides a steadying presence on the floor in Atlanta, despite his age, and is a valuable asset in half-court sets.

Defense: Atlanta’s most fundamentally sound defender. Doesn’t have ideal foot-speed, but has tremendous defensive intangibles and a great wingspan. Reads ball-handlers extremely well, and creates turnovers by getting into passing lanes. Length and effort make him a very good perimeter defender. Lacks the bulk to defend strong players in the post, but makes an effort to deny entry passes by working hard to take away angles. Gets beat off the dribble periodically, but doesn’t give up anything easy at the rim. Does a good job of rotating with the ball. Isn’t reckless when closing out his man off of skip passes. Still manages to block a few shots due in large part to his long arms and good timing. Has great timing and knows how to get his team extra possessions.

Maurice Evans

Overview: A steady role player on the wing who has the athleticism to score some points around the rim and get into his man on defense. A little on the short side for his position. Very good athlete. Plays above the rim. Shows a solid first step and tremendous speed in transition. Can do some scoring from the midrange and off the dribble. Makes a living as a defender. Has the physical tools and attitude to be considered a defensive specialist. Experienced quite a bit of success during his time at Wichita State and Texas, but didn’t show the offensive acumen necessary to get an NBA contract initially. Spent some time overseas to polish has game, which helped him out considerably. Has become a very good role player, thanks to his work ethic, smarts and extremely high character.

Offense: A capable offensive player who gets about a third of his offense in spot up situations. Does the little things to make plays on the offensive end. Shows a constantly improving shooting stroke with range that extends past the three point range. Was once considered a big weakness, but is now a strength. Not quite as effective shooting off the dribble. Lacks a mid-range game. Gets to the basket at a decent clip, and is a capable finisher at the rim thanks to his excellent athleticism. Doesn’t get to the free throw line very often at all. Average ball handler. Average passer as well. Not turnover prone. Runs the floor hard and moves well without the ball. Not a glamorous offensive player, but a nice option as a role player.

Defense: A physical defender who has become a good option due to that characteristic. Uses his physical strength extremely well when preventing penetration. Displays solid quickness when sliding over to help out his teammates as well. Will do the little things asked of him, which helps maximize his physical tools. Can’t use his strength to his advantage against taller and more dynamic swingmen. Better suited to defend shooting guards than small forwards. Won’t take silly risks. Very sound, and definitely an asset

my take and summation, evans nice player as a role player, good guy doesnt match closely to what chills was as described as the best atlanta defender by UNBIASED sources as a compilation of ideas. come to your own conclusions. as i said yesterday, YAWN.

a little trivia, evans has passed through a territory that chills will be accustomed to soon and survived and got better for those decrying chills would only lose his game. yup evans played for the same greek team that has courted and taken chills away from us. maybe the two of them can talk a bit and give each other the lay of the land.

evans when the season starts will have played for 6 teams in the nba and 2 in the euro league including russia in 9 years, if that is not the TRUE definition of a journey man i dont know what would qualify beyond the poor kid drafted this year that wore three hats in 24 hours without moving an inch.

again, i will say that evans would have been the excellent guy to have in ADDITION to childress, plain and simple. they probably could have been both had for say 9.5 to 10 mil if the BASG been more aggressive with their efforts to sign and not reacting to the market pressure placed upon it. to have done that they would have been in a slot to challenge for the 4th and 5th spots in the league. even with signing morris and smith to duplicate matt’s roster they are doomed to lottery land unless woody and the new coaching staff are up to the task. again to have both chills and evans here, HUGE, unfortunately, ball dropped again right in front of our eyes, so NOT to be. did sund misread or BASG get in the way?

kirk, you always sound so logical but your logic always has so many flaws. when you say you PRIMARILY want a team that will be better and have more wins than 37 you continue to ignore the smoke screens; they make flawed decisions and apparently hold the line to minimum spending allowed. you in turn express you understand that they have a small market mentality and accept it as such. sadly, this is not a small market just one that has discriminating buyers.

i will emphasize the last flaw in logic by reminding all that very few teams if any have made it over the minimum allowed cap and become greater than .500 for very long, if at all. i imagine portland has achieved it but they didnt make the playoffs as we did last year by many wondrous good fortunes including injures to theirs and lottery picks form the graces of the basketball gods to us. as an organization i like the way portland does it because they dont let something slip between their fingers when given a chance and pick pocket others as they use their assets. i guess that is my definition of proactive rather than reactive as we are as an organization. no other way to say it and after reading many accounts both nationally and locally they all reason out the same; chills slipped through their fingers.

my own take is the owners are pleased now because the compensation TO THEM may be that it will allow them to keep budget lower than every other team in the league even BELOW minimum cap. they have also done the necessary spin to discredit chills and allow certain folks to scream greed as they planned for folks to be deceived by the smoke. yes, if managed correctly they can spend even less money this year than last if i read the tea leaves right. incidentally, those same tea leaves suggested right here on the blog that as smith lost his shot with the clips and things dragged on with chills that if they had smart agents they WOULD look to the euro league.

matt, yes you may have hit it on the nose, just dont seem too excited about it just yet. smith is not a sure bet, IRONY, maybe just maybe the hawks will have to spend more on him than they would have if they had been more aggressive in showing him some love along with chills. remember, the hawks have LESS leverage now in that negotiation. they have to consider that even to the point smith may decide to sit the start of the year which is his prerogative i guess as well. YIKES, now wouldnt that take the cake. the other attack from his side, to maybe just throw fate to the wind and take he qualifier along with an insurance policy. obviously, the hawks didnt really sit down and brainstorm all the possibilities the opponent had at his discretion when considering the moves chills could make. watching the hawks play chess is very painful. hope they are doing due diligence this time.

BASG, please watch your flank! STILL YOUR MOVE. dont let the smoke get in your eyes folks.

matt, you sound enthusiastic but you roster suggests a low of 29 wins and a hugh of 34 wins. dont ask if the remainingg josh is not here to start the season.

ando, very well put, nice and lucid … even keel on last blog.

By Reggie

July 26, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

If Josh Smith is traded or if he signs a one offer Im done with the hawks.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Great post, Sekou.

I’m thinking the Western Powerhouse is the Lakers, and they’d send us Lamar Odom? 3 team trade?

The other team is the Pistons, and they are offering Tayshaun and a bench piece (Amir Johnson).

If we can get back a 17 ppg scorer for Smoove and add some more depth, then go for it.

Great Mo Evans signing.

By Ryder

July 26, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Sekou, what about Mario West? Wasn’t he supposed to also be that defensive stopper that gave JJ some help when he went to the bench? That said, I do like the fact that Evans can shoot well from the 3 point line, which is also something the Hawks have needed for eons.

I’m not crying over losing Childress. Personally, I think that for a sixth pick in the draft he was extremely overrated. Hustle guys like him can be found all over the NBA, and to pay almost $7M for a guy who’s not even a starter is asinine. Evans may not be the perfect replacement, but he fills a much needed role.

As for Smith, if the Hawks can trade him, I say it’s all for the better. Sund is obviously attempting to build up a more well-rounded roster, and I hope the acquisition of Morris will enable them to move Horford to the 4 spot where he could really be a threat.

Josh Smith is a great athlete, but in order to become a contender you need guys who have a great basketball IQ, something Smith seriously lacks. Keep your high flying dunks, give me someone who knows how to keep the ball in play and minimizes his weaknesses.

Smith is not a great one-on-one defender, and whomever Atlanta gets in a trade will be able to play man on man defense the way Woodson prefers.

I’m all for Sund eliminating the BK swingman fetish and putting together a REAL NBA team here in Atlanta!

Sekou give us some updates on that trade. The sooner Smith is outta here the better this franchise will become!

By Dan

July 26, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Does potentially signing Randolph Morris take the Hawks out of the running for Brown? I really thought Brown could fill the role of enforcer that has been missing on this team for years. I am not sure about Morris. I didn’t think he was that great when he was at Kentucky.

Also, I hope these potential sign-and-trades are really blockbusters. I have almost given up on the Hawks ability to resign Smith. I wonder if the rest of the league has, too? If that is the case, I would think that would hurt the Hawk’s leverage and they might be the losers of the deal. Would that really surprise anyone? Any time this ownership group goes to the negotiating table they get schooled. First by Belkin, then by Childress.

Finally, I hate that the roster is going to be so different from last year. Assuming Smith is gone, that would be two huge parts of last season that are no longer part of the team. Aren’t you expected to build on your team from year to year, not subtract from it? I have no faith that the owners or Sund will make the right call. This is the most poorly run franchise in the history of sports.

By doc

July 26, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

one addiitional comment and it is one from the file. often, i commented billy knight wasnt that bad. in fact he built a very good team in memphis as he did here. with a coaching change memphis went into the 50 win category. he was subsequently replaced by the great jerry west who was smart enough to make the right move to change coaches, not players, seeing what had been pulled together. gulp, what i wonder now, has sund for whatever reason has taken the 180 degree twist on it and will put his stamp on it by keeping the coach and changing the players? sadly, i think this will be disastrous, this market would support the added spending in spades whereas memphis couldnt and didnt. he/they/BASG have put us back into the lottery with their arrogance of lack of spending power and shortsightedness. collectively, i dont see them smarter than jerry west who didnt tinker until he had to go counting pennies in anticipation of a sale.

as my ole friend furman says selah.

glad to see my old friend richie contributing. to answer your question, no we will go to a hawks game along with a brave game and watch what happens when small market mindsets take over big market potential teams. yup, kirk i too see very clearly and i have said before, set my sights accordingly. others that have read here before have seen i dont get too excited when they win or lose and certainly dont let it ruin my day much less stop eating. if your expectations are 37 wins how can you be upset which mine were last year. if you dont mind it either we are in the same emotional range if not looking at it from the same perspective … the holographic universe of one mind and all.

By LEA

July 26, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

If we lose Smoove as well, forget the HAWKS, the ASG . I will NEVER go to another HAWKS game in my life.. Smoove is the face of this franchise , and to let him get away case the ASG is a group of cheap a* punks is stupid. I don’t care who we would get back, they don’t bring the excitement Smoove does…..

By Ryder

July 26, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Ben, I hope that trade with Detroit would happen. It would be great to have Tayshaun here where he would make some serious noise at the 3. Let’s get some depth with Amir Johnson and become a real franchise for once. After watching Lamar Odom disappear in the Finals i’m not sure if he would work well in Atlanta, we already have one soft SF in Marvin Williams, who I’m guessing will be the next Hawk to be shoved out the door.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

Ryder, I’m loving your posts.

I have never been a huge Smoove fan. I bought his jersey because I wanted a Hawks jersey of the new Unis and his was the only available at The Sports Authority.

Smoove is not going to get us deep in the playoffs—players like Horford, Joe Johnson, Tayshaun Prince, and Rip Hamilton will.

I am also hearing people mention Phoenix with Amare Stoudemire as a possiblity—lol.

I hope after we resign Morris we can add ANOTHER big and another pointguard or even another big! Mario JRich and Luke Jackson are all SG/SF, so we may need another Pg depending on Speedy (PLEASE STAY HEALTH—you are A GOOD DEFENDER—WE NEED YOU OUT THERE) or another PF/C.

At first I was p** at ASG for losing Childress, but they did perfectly fine. We got a 5 mill/year cheaper replacement with Evans, who is freakishly athletic and can shoot.

Now let’s just round out the roster, add a couple bigs, and I am ready for this season.

Sleeper team in the East.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

PEOPLE: STOP CRYING ABOUT JOSH SMITH—-he is an immature basketball player who cannot play man defense (Omg, his man defense is atrocious) and is selfish. Yes he is a freakish athlete and blocks shots, but in the long run, a really polished player like Tayshaun or Bynum is a much better investment.

By Hawksville Resident

July 26, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Good signing Mo Evans started 47 games last year for the team who won our division. Way to send a message to Orlando that we’re coming! Also he’s much cheaper than what childress wanted so we can get two players for the price of one. All this being said, we have to either sign Josh or Trade Josh. We cannot let him walk. Go Hawks!

By walker

July 26, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

If the Hawks TRADE JOSH SMITH, I AM DONE SON with the F’ng HAWKS!!!! First Nique then SMoooove- Smith is a once in a lifetime athlete. People need to remeber he is only 22 YRS. OLD!!!! He will only get better!!!!!!

By gb

July 26, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

if josh smith goes in a sign and trade i think it will be for draft picks and cheaper players. if the hawk would’t pay josh and josh, what makes anyone think they will pay odom or prince? the cheap basg.

By bentheexpert

July 26, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

“Ben” who is a better man defender on the Hawks starting five? Bibby,Marvin, Joe NO. will give you Horford even though I am not sure about that either. He is selfish. Sure is that is why he was third on the team in assists. Doubling the avg. of Marvin and Childress assists and almost doubling Acie Law. Just say you don’t like the guy. Everyone can understand that stop making up things that are a blatant lie.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 26, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

A pretty fair guess is that the potential deal with a Western “power” is Dallas, for Josh Howard.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 26, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

gb -

if prince is the target, he’s signed for two more years at a reasonable salary. ditto with josh howard.

i’d have a hard time seeing smith traded for odom since he has a salary similar to bibby and will be a free agent after the season. unless they grand plan is to rebuild again, i see the benefit of another large, expiring salary.

By JohnGTFan

July 26, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

I agree with many people about Josh Smith. He’s an exciting and great young talent. But if you can bring back more that what he brings (one on one defense, a jump shot, lack of turnovers) plus another player….do it! This is the ATLANTA HAWKS…not the Josh and Josh show!!!!!!!!

By JohnGTFan

July 26, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

One more thing…there is a reason Smoove doesn’t win Defensive POY…yes, he gets a lot of blocks… but they are “rare” it comes against one on one action. Don’t get me wrong, I love his help defense…truly I do. And I think in time he will grow even more than he already has. But I’m about the HAWKS. If they trade him and make the team BETTER!!!…then by all means. I also agree with others on here…no way he can sign the one year offer and just walk. That would be a nightmare. I don’t think Sund will let that happen.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

“bentheexpert”:

1) If you are going to reply to what I said, at least learn a sense of English punctuations and the language. I had to read your post 6 times before I even remotely came close to understanding it.

2) Joe, Horford, and Marvin, are all head and shoulders above Smoove in MAN defense.

3) Smoove is a weakside and transition shotblocker. The guy does not try at all on man defense. On March 28, 2008 (I was at the game—6th row) against the Bulls, Drew Gooden in the 3rd quarter was pulling Fakes and Dream Shakes all over Smoove, and the playoffs showed his deficient man defense.

If you reply, please try so in actual English, not 8 year old elementary jargon.

Thanks.

By bentheexpert

July 26, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

“Ben” You use one game against Drew Gooden as an example. I can use the example of Josh guarding KG in the playoffs. Marvin is one of the worst defenders starting in the NBA. You are the expert. Josh Smith finished in 6th place for DPOY. Let you tell it he is one of the worst defenders on the Hawks. I am sure you know much more that actual NBA personnel.

By honest_abe

July 26, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

ben: congratulations. you just lost all credibility on this blog when you said that marvin is a better man to man defender than smith. marv can’t guard my grandmother and she’s dead (god rest her soul).

don’t bring up one freaking game as an example of jsmith’s ineffective man d. gooden was throwing up all kinds of trash he never makes on a consistent basis an it was all going in that night. it had less to do with smith’s d and more to do with the fact that gooden was in the zone.

stop hating on smith. the guy’s going to be an all star for the next 10 years. mark it down.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Wow, you guys never cease to amaze me.

BenTheExpert: The fact that Smoove finished 6th in the NBA in DPOTY voting has everything to do with his weakside and transition shotblocking. The 209 shots he blocked in the playoffs were pretty much all from those 2 aspects: transition defense and weakside defense.

Can you read?

“Let you tell it he is one of the worst defenders on the Hawks. “

Wow, no you can’t read. I said he’s one of the worst MAN defenders on our team, which he is. If he has to guard Bosh, J’Oneal, Garnett, Al Jefferson, Bynum, Gasol, Z.Randolph or any quality big 1 on 1 (in other words—MAN DEFENSE), he will get roasted, as he always does.

It’s okay though. Your blatant illiterate state plus your utter incompetence to formulate proper sentence structure is no big deal, as 47 percent of Georgians never graduate from high school. Your evident stupidity and the fact you are a complete ignoramus does not stand out in the crowd.

Honest_abe: So you don’t want me to bring up 1 game to show Smoove is not a good man-defender? Should I bring up 20? I see you post here a lot—maybe you’ve seen all those games he is guarding someone, that person will spin and get ready to dunk and Smoove just stand there.

Like i said in my original post, josh Smith is not going to lead this team far in the playoffs. He has his usual 8 games or so of trashy FG percentages and 19.5 turnovers a game, then he’ll have his gem game (usually against Philly).

We can also count on him to hold out for 13 million which he absolutely does not deserve, thereby clogging up our salary for years to come so we can’t sign anybody.

He will be an all-star, but if I had a choice of getting quality players in return to help ameliorate the overall depth of this team, I’ll all for it.

Thanks. Now go back to sleep.

By MARTEZ

July 26, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

JOSH SMITH IS THE FACE OF THE FRANCHISE…BUT HEY IF HE DOESNT WANNA BE HERE HIS HEART WONT BE IN THE GAME….I COULD SEE A SIGN AND TRADE DEAL WITH DALLAS FOR JOSH HOWARD AND JASON TERRY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT

By MrSmoot

July 26, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Fellow Hawks fans lets not forget that we dont have forever to make some noise with our current roster. It may take JSmith another 3 to 4 years to fully put all his skills together. But in the meantime Joe is getting older and Horford, Law(hopefully) and possibly other guys will need large contract extentions(especially Horfords possibly max deal). So we dont have the time to wait for Josh to fully mature (which may take a few more years). So if we can get Tayshaun and Amir Johnson (almost as athletic as Josh) then its something that WILL make us a better team. Tayshaun is a PROVEN defender (much better than Josh) he can hit the open jumper and stroke the 3 consistently( alot better than Josh’s 25% and occasional airball). To summize, the trade with the Pistons is the best thing for the Hawks. Furthermore, imagine this! If we give Josh what he wants we will be over paying for the 3rd option on our team, a guy who cant shoot, and cant play one on one defense against legitimate powerforwards. Or we underpay him and he kills the team chemistry for the next 5 to 6 years because hes funky about his deal. Trading Josh just became a mandatory move. Gentlemen its time to put the emotion about last year aside and think about the best possible future for the Hawks.

By j

July 26, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Hello, Perhaps we can get back Shelden Williams in a trade with the Kings. All kidding aside, I kinda like the idea of trading Smoove for Ron Artest. That is of course if he does not want to remain a Hawk. At the beginning of Free Agency, I swore to myself that I would give up on the Hawks if Smoove is not resigned. Now, I think I have been desensitized by the Childress fiasco. I think I would rather keep Smith with the qualifying offer rather than the alternative. Also, we could still do a sign and trade next year. Cheers, J

By Ben

July 26, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

“And cant play one on one defense against legitimate powerforwards”

Well said, mrSmoot. Josh Smith is a nice flashy player, but he will clog up our salary and Tayshaun is a winner

By Dirty Sanchez

July 26, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

IMO, from reading into what Sekou is saying if the deal gets done with EC this just sounds like Detroit……

If it goes with the Western Conference team, IMO I think it’s either Dallas or the Suns….I don’t think the Suns are as attached to Amare as some wants to believe.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 26, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith is 22 years old. If you think he’s gonna be the exact same player the rest of his career that he is right now, with no improvement whatsoever, you are an idiot.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 26, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

When faced with the choice of debating with all of my good friends here or watching my new girlfriend (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW8wrXjPs5A) work, I choose Keri.

But can I say that the ridiculous factor is in overdrive around here today. I can’t decide who is more hilarious between Ben and bentheexpert.

The Hawks don’t have a lockdown one-on-one defender, they just don’t. But Josh Smith is the closest thing to one that they have. He is by far the Hawks’ best overall defender and one of the league’s top three help defenders because of his ability to block shots. If you don’t believe it go back and check Doc Rivers’ offensive playoff scheme against the Hawks, which was designed to neutralize Josh Smith’s ability to alter shots around the basket.

And if you’re going to blast anybody for giving up points to someone else, then who gets the heat for giving up 28 and 27 points to Smith in the playoffs? He was matched up with the Defensive Player of the Year. So are we to believe that Kevin Garnett’s defensive prowess is a figment of all our imaginations or can we just recognize that there is basically no such thing as a great one-on-one defender in a league where the best offensive player usually wins in hand-to-hand combat.

Team defense, however, is another story. Just ask Kobe Bryant, who has faced excellent team defense in each of his last two trips to the NBA Finals (both losing experiences).

And now, back to Keri (who has taken up residence as Mrs. Blog Z from Beyonce and Gabrielle Union until further notice).

By randy

July 26, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t Tayshaun Prince make about what Josh Smith is asking? Why would we downgrade for the same amount of money? Does anyone in their right mind think that Prince is a better player than Smith? Stupid trade if it happens…Like I said before, if Josh Smith walks, so will alot of Hawks fans. SIGN HIM!!!

By randy

July 26, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

I like it if we get Morris, but I doubt he adds much more other than 6 fouls a game. He wasn’t all that impressive at Kentucky and haven’t heard of him since…

By Mike

July 26, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

Why would the Pistons want Smith?

No one else wants him?

He is over rated PF who can’t rebound, can’t shoot and can’t handle the ball. On top of that his defense is mediocre at best.

No one wants to pay him $12 million because he is not worth $12 million a year. Maybe $7 million absolutely topss

By SoMuchForLastSeason

July 26, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

The 1 thing any Team wants from ALL of its players is consistant GOOD PLAY. So why shouldnt players and FANS want the same from the TEAM. Lost is the great feeling of the Playoff run from last year. J Chill is gone and Josh Smooth is on his way out the door for Josh Howard. This was a team that was GREAT at Home. The road was another case. Keeping the team TOGETHER was Paramount. All you could hear was we WILL resign the Josh’s we will match any offer blah blah blah. Now we hear statements like if Josh Chill would not help us be better than a .500 club let him walk. MMMM Hello he was on the team LAST year that took the Champs the distance. Mo Evans was NOT Chills replacement that would be Luke Jackson. The Big you wanted that will be Randolph Morris. For all 3 the cost will come to about 10 mill for the next 12 years. So all is a FRONT, nothing more. No commitment No cosistantcy. All we needed was 2 players, thats all. A big and a shooter. Made Josh Chill a decent upfront offer EARLY. Like at 12:00 am July 1st. Offer Josh Smith the max, then if not do a 1 year deal. If he wanted to walk next year you would have a Ton of money for next summer or possibly the 2009 2010 mega summer. It took 10 years to get back in the mix and less than 30 days to destroy it. Say hello to an Empty Phillips arena. Will anything good from last year still be around Nov 1st? Welcome back to the basement. So Long ……Last Season.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

folks we are talkin’ about a cat that’s 22yrs old!!! and one who has done nothin’ but IMPROVE EVERY YEAR in the league…despite WOODSON!!!

it’s been said before, why try to replace what you already have??? doesn’t make a damn bit of sense!!!! as much as i like PRINCE’s game i don’t think i would do that trade. for me, AMARE is the ONLY trade that would make me feel better if SMOOVE was to leave.

the BASG is gonna have to commit big money to SMOOVE stayin’ or in a sign-n-trade. so for the money req’d i would ALSO want YOUTH in return!!!

By DC

July 26, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

Our biggest problem is our Coach. Woodson is terrible!!! He needs to be coaching AAU basketball in College Park. But that is another discussion itself. TERRIBLE!!!As for Josh Smith I like the guy and his dunking ability but we need MORE. These players aren’t ever going to win a championship until they start playing for the fans and the game and less about the MONEY!!! When you have a solid nucleus and young talent like the Hawks do someone like Joe Johnson needs to talk to Smith. Joe and others need to explain that winning is in the future if Josh stays and it very well could be if we can have a coach and some extra bench help. If Josh doesn’t come back he can take his 3.0 tunrovers a game (team high) which are very costly somewhere else. He isn’t that great, neither was Childress. Josh Smith is not worth what he thinks and if he wants to win he can stay with the team who has put him on the map and gave his young teenage a* a chance coming out of high school. I never understood the mindset of these kids, and Josh still is a KID. Once they re-signed Woodson I don’t think Josh had any plans on returning. I wouldn’t be surprised Hawks fans and be ready for it if Josh plays out this year, becomes an unrestricted free agent after that and we get absolutely nothing for him. BE READY!!

By newkid

July 26, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

I feel the hot breath of Phil Jackson and the Lakers on the necks of Sund and the ASG. Bynum and his ‘potential’ coming off the knee thing, coupled with Radmanovic (if the combined salaries can be made to work as compensation for a BYC player) for Smith and cash (if necessary to balance the 1st year salaries); closely followed by Kupchak re-signing Kwame Brown for two shillings and an opportunity to compete for a title.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 26, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

Man I wish we had owners like Cuban or Dr. Buss……… I could understand not giving Chillz 7-10 milli per year but Smoove is a different story. With all the negatives factored in -this guy is still worth 11 or 12 milli per year.

Bogut (14 mil) Jefferson(13mil) Ellis (11 mil) I know sum of yall hate yung josh but look at the guy’z body of work at 22yo 17/8/3/2.8/1.5

He is just as effective as Bogut and Jefferson…..They play different positions but the end results are nearly the same. If we are gonna do a sign and trade it better be for Amare Stoudamire…..If we could get him to put next to horford i would be all for that. Tayshon Amir Lamar not so much. I would even go for Bynum - there are sum horrible sign and trade ideas going around…..sum people wanna give the guy away for peanuts.

By Lacsho

July 26, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

Hmmmm Me and Abe hardly see eye to eye, but I agree with him 100%. JSmoove will become an all star in the near future. About the Mo Evans deal, what’s the difference between him and Mario West? Besides experience, what’s the real difference?

By terrell barron

July 26, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Sekou, my source tells me it’s Josh Smith to the Mavs for Josh Howard and Brandon Bass. I could live with that. Bibby, JJ, Howard, Bass, Horford. Before yall kill me for putting Horford at center, I really think Big Al could be an allstar center playing alongside a rugged player like Bass. But if not, we could go with Bibby, JJ, Howard, Horford, and Zaza, Morris, or Kwame. How would you guys feel about that deal? Doc, Ken, Salimfan, Mykhalc?

By Sautee

July 26, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

mychalc

good post man. hope all is well with you.

peace

By cp

July 26, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

This is shaping up to be only ugly summer for this team. Like it was said earlier, the only player I would be fine with losing Josh Smith for would be Amare. Josh Howard is a small foward. So if we do that deal do we move Pachulia to the starting 5, slide Horford to the 4 , Howard to the 3 and Marvin to the bench? I would do a Marvin for Howard but not Smith for Howard. I like Prince but it would be the same problem. Horford at the 5 gives us a better chance than having Pachulia to the 5. Marvin cant play the 4.. Bass is a power foward too me. He plays better at the 4 than the 5. Did he even play the 5? Randolph Morris has size but thats about it. …I know a lot of guys on here dont like Josh Smith but you cant be serious in some of these trade suggestions. Once again I would love to have Howard on this team but I would rather give up Marvin to get him and keep Josh.

By ntrigue

July 26, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

I will never watch or attend another Hawks game if we lose the face of the franchise Josh Smith Point Blank.

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

It seems to me that we need a better understanding of what blockbuster sign-and-trade proposals and dramatic changemeans.

To me it means that the Hawks will be getting somethig more than “garbage” as Gearon put it yesterday when discussing sign an trade also Childress.

There are only two known “powerhouses” in the East, in my opinion. Either Boston or Detroit. Looking at each roster, the newly signed Patrick O’Bryant stands out and makes the most sense for the Hawks.

If Detroit, it’s a bit harder to see the pieces for the Hawks, though Smith seems a better fit for Detroit than he does Boston. Perhaps a secondary trade would be necessary?

In the West who knows who it could be. Perhaps Golden State who has shown a willingness to remake their roster? Portland has some bigs as well.

This is great! Things are happening that will hopefully help improve the team.

If a trade is made, we will not be able to say with proof, that the trade was good, bad, or a draw(meaning same 37 wins).

Go Hawks!!!

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Sautee, wassup man!! hope the music is flowin’ my friend!!

yeah, between my beloved HAWKS and my adopted GSW i’m livin’ in exile hell!!!LOL maybe i need to head to GREECE like CHILS!!!

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

oh yeah, i would have to add OUTLAW from POR to the list along with AMARE as bein’ an acceptable trade for SMOOVE. but POR has their $hit together!!! no need to trade when you’ve executed your game plan pretty flawlessly!!!!

kirknga, POB from BOS???? WTF!!! maybe i need to go and re-read your post!!?? i must’ve missed somethin’!!!???

By Hawks-rule

July 26, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Man if we can’t keep j. Smith we need to do a sign and trade with Chicago for Luol Deng.

Make them throw in Noah for a 2nd round draft pick so we can get better interior D and keep Al at the 4 spot.

By terrell barron

July 26, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

CP, I’m sure you and everybody else would like to give up Marvin for Howard. lol!!! But remember, both teams have to agree. Cuban is still laughing. hahahahahahahaha!

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

mykhalc

Yes, I said that O’Bryant stood out for me as a nice piece for the Hawks. I said that I liked him for the Hawks before he was signed by the Celtics. I believe there were others as well who saw him as a suitable fit for the Hawks.

I like him because acquiring him allow Horford to move to the 4.

What’s the problem man?

I see that has more likely than an Amare trade. Though I’d do a cartwheel down the street if we did get him.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

kirknga, a number of us, (myself, ANDO, RAY) talked about POB 6 months ago. my problem with your post is that, there is NO WAY i’d trade for POB plus whomever else for SMOOVE when the HAWKS coulda had him at the start of FA signings!!! and at this point he’s a project. even tho i think a doable and workable project after havin’ seen him play out here in san fran. so i’m all for see him in a HAWKS uni just NOT as a part of any kinda SMOOVE trade!!! that would be akin to re-signin’ WOODSON…stupid as hell!!! (and that’s not callin’ you stupid…just to be clear);o)

By SalimFan

July 26, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

IF WE LOOSE BOTH JOSH’S THIS IN THE SAME MONTH THIS FRANCHISE IS DONE…..SO ARE THE FANS PERIOD……END OF STORY. REGARDLESS OF WHO THEY BRING IN

This post was retorical. If you wasnt fact wait until the seas0n starts and see who shows up.

By SalimFan

July 26, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

IF WE LOOSE BOTH JOSH’S THIS IN THE SAME MONTH THIS FRANCHISE IS DONE…..SO ARE THE FANS PERIOD……END OF STORY. REGARDLESS OF WHO THEY BRING IN

This post was retorical. If you wasnt fact wait until the season starts and see who shows up.

Sekou, In your personal opinoin from what you have seen. Would you rather have Kwame or Morris???? Who is better in your opinion??? Also what do you think about us adding Shannon Brown?? Law/Shannon/Evans bench combo?????

By Sautee

July 26, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

kirknga

Can you tell me what this means?

If a trade is made, we will not be able to say with proof, that the trade was good, bad, or a draw(meaning same 37 wins).

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Sekou, just to add, i saw things the same way in the BOS series regardin’ SMOOVE. he mighta been the ‘deer’ in BOS but he played his a$$ off at home!!! i’ll take the growin’ pains from JOSH!!! i was one of his biggest critics at the start of last season, mainly bball IQ type things. but the cat made leaps over the season!!!

so i’ll take a 22yr old work in progress that at ‘this’ stage of his progress will gimme 18pts/8reb/2.5blks a nite. all while playin’ for the most BRAINLESS, CLUELESS, AND USELESS HC that i’ve seen!!! great person, i’m sure, baaaaaaaad HC…PERIOD!!!

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 26, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

So I kinda got tired of posting the same thing over and over again… so here you go

PAIN

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

mykhalc

So the problem is you disagree, you and others don’t like POB. That’s fair enough. I can see how people could make that argument.

I believe in Nelson’s system he was miscast, I think he might show better in a different type of offense.(That isn’t an endorsement of Woodie, btw…)

I was just looking at both rosters and he caught my eye,I wasn’t looking specifically for him.

Even if POB is in the trade, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t an additional player included, or even a second trade that could also happen.

Sekou said “blockbuster” so I expect something more than POB in a “blockbuster”.

At this point is just all speculation.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 26, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

So I kinda got tired of posting the same thing over and over again… so here you go… have some PAIN

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 26, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

Whoops, sorry for the double post.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this

kirknga, you’re right. he was miscast in NELLIE’s system, no doubt!! and i think he will show better in a different system.

oh yeah, add BIEDRINS to the list i’d take in a SMOOVE trade!!! see i’m not inflexible!!!LOL

By richbrave

July 26, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Seen the great KWAME BROWN as an adolescent. Wasn’t he traded for a bag of chips last year? Maybe the rarified west coast air as instilled the willingness to play some real NBA round-ball instead of just taking money for playing at it. BROWN, BROWN?? Why not MELO then? I wouldn’t touch either with a ten-foot pole.

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

Sautee

Good=more wins and hopefully the playoffs.

Bad=less wins and as stated,

Draw=37 wins.

Should a trade happen, there will no doubt be much discussion about who was received in return and whether or not people feel it was a trade that should’ve been made.

I believe until we see how they pieces fit, or don’t, we can’t tell 3 months before the season whether or not any trade was good for the team or not.

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

mykhalc

I was thinking Biedrins too, but he’s leveraging possible European offers. He wants $11 million/year. I’m not sure he’s worth that. And if you’re going to pay him that I’m not so sure you just don’t pay Smith his $12 million and be done with all this.

But is Golden State a West Coast “power”?

By Sautee

July 26, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

kirknga

Oh, so you said it backwards?

What you said was:

If a trade is made, we will not be able to say with proof, that the trade was good, bad, or a draw(meaning same 37 wins).

Which I took as saying we wouldn’t be able to evaluate the trade. Is that not what that statement says?

Did you mean to say “we will be able to say with proof……” ????

Hence my confusion. Not the first time.

By HB Ando

July 26, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

Kirk, as the first person to champion the idea of acquiring O’Bryant, I feel qualified to address your point. So the problem is that O’Bryant is still, at best, a major project, and he signed for $1.5 million. Brilliant as you are, you must know that his cap number would require that Boston throw in another $10 million or so in player contract to work a sign-and-trade. I actually suggested we seek to obtain O’Bryant before last season started, after GS renounced his rights, making him an UFA this summer. Before the trade deadline I suggested we go ahead and swap Shelden for him. I still like his upside, but unless I’m missing something (like the $10 million shortfall in your idea), it’s a nonsensical suggestion.

Bynum is about the only young big I could see trading Smith for. I think Cuban would be in hog heaven if he could get Smith for Howard. And from a production standpoint, Howard doesn’t give you much more that what a year older Marvin should produce this year (18-20 and 7). He is a better defender than Marvin, but he and Marvin would be playing the same position, if he came in swap for Smith.

I still believe that there’s no room on Toronto’s front line for Bargnani, as it’s impractical to think that Bargnani, Bosh and O’Neal can play together. Who would defend opposing 3’s? Since I’m steadfast that, if the Hawks are to keep, and build around, Horford and Smith, as bookend forwards, then the optimal compliment is a player who can defend the five, but face up, out beyond the arc, and consistently nail the outside jumper. Meanwhile, Toronto needs a classic 3 to play with Bosh and O’Neal, and a back up 4/5 in case O’Neal gets hurt (again).

So why not trade Marvin and Zaza for Bargnani and Anthony Parker? Go check Parker’s post all-star break production, especially the 3 point shooting. Now HE is a guy we can replace Chills with. So what if Bargnani doesn’t rebound. With Smith and Horford, he doesn’t need to dominate the boards. He needs to stretch the opposing defense, significantly improving our outside shooting, while putting a solid body on opposing centers. This frees Horford to work the low blocks, in the half-court, keeping opposing defenses from collapsing into the lane, and, similarly, opens up driving lanes for Smith to attack the basket. It’s a rare trade that makes sense for both teams, and works from a salary match perspective.

Look, other than Marion and Kirilenko, there simply aren’t any other non-centers in the league who can do the things Smith can do. He has flaws (please, no 3’s), but he’s only 22 stinkin’ years old. He didn’t even play in college, so he’s still learning the mental game. There are at least 20 guys in the league who can replicate what Josh Howard does from the wing, including, for the most part, Marvin. And the idea that the ultimate complimentary player, in Prince, is worth Smith, is simply nuts. His strengths as a player would be lost on a team like the Hawks.

Sign Smith for Monta Ellis money. It doesn’t mean you have to keep him for the full term of his contract. But it does mean you control one of, if not your most, valuable market asset. It keeps you from being forced to take what you can get, even if it doesn’t fit, from a single team that signs him to a term sheet. If he continues to develop, he’s a bargain at $11 million (look at what Marion is making). If he doesn’t max his potential, here in Atlanta, there will still be a tremendous market, because his athleticism is tantalizing and the egos in professional sports always believe that they can get more out of an under performing talent than his last team (see: Ron Artest).

But 22 year-olds are emotional and intense. Don’t sour this kid on the organization. Show him the love, and keep your leverage as an organization.

And just as importantly, despite a vocal minority who don’t view Smith as worthy, the ASG’s only real hope, knowing that there aren’t any stud free agents coming here, of salvaging the hope and support of the ticket buying public, is to prove they’re willing to spend market value to keep their most exciting player.

Like Sekou said, I’m stunned at the cluelessness of some of these posts.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

kirknga, whatever we ‘think’ SMOOVE is worth, believe me, BIEDRINS is worth that much too!!! saw him play as much as i saw SMOOVE play, the cat can flat out ball. and he too did not really get ‘all’ the minutes he deserved under NELLIE. but a front line of EL GATO GRANDE and BIEDRINS…now THAT would be PROGRESS!!!!

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this

mykhalc

Ok well I’m going to have to take your word for it, I haven’t seen him play. Looking at his stats though I see improvement across the board from the time he entered the league until last season.

I particularly like the high FG% each season. This suggests to me that he has a post up game. True?

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 26, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

Co-sign Ando’s post.

I would like to see us keep J-Smoove, but if we did a sign and trade with him Biedrins or Emeka Okafor would be ideal trade targets. Either one of them could play the 5 and allow Horford to slide to the 4, and we probably wouldn’t lose much (if at all) defensively by acquiring either one. The problem of course is that offensively they are a huge step down from Josh Smith, whose versatility at the SF/PF position is not easily replaceable.

By nookah

July 26, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this

ASG, quit the crap and sign Josh. We have to have Smoove to continue what was started last year. Even though I’m not sold on the coach, I think bringing back Smoove will be the right move.

Happy to hear we are close to signing Morris, but isn’t Kwame the better player? If we sign Morris I hope we’ll be able to get the best out of him but oh……I did say I was not sold on the coach.

I’m cautiously optimistic. I hope we’ll bring back Smoove.

Go Hawks!!!!

Nuff Respect!!!

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

HB Ando

Good for you on being the “first person to champion the idea of acquiring O’Bryant,…”

Bynum would work as would Amare. I’d be surprised though if either is traded.

Again we don’t know if additional pieces are included, perhaps additional teams are involved as well, we just don’t know.

I prefer not to say that there is only one big that would be a good fit for the Hawks. There aren’t many, but I believe there is more than one.

Look, I say give the guy his $12 million and be done. But the organization apparently does not see that as it’s best option, at least as much as we know publicly.

I say give him his $12 million because they are close enough 10 vs 12, reportedly, that it shouldn’t be that much of a burden. But again, if you’re an organization and you have a sincere belief that this player is not worth what he believes he is worth, then you have the right to explore other options.

I have always recognized is athletic talent, I question other things.

I see him similar to Texiera for the Braves. One looks at Tex’s numbers and say wow! This guy is a stud! And he is…on the stat sheet.

But then you look at the Braves won-loss record during the time he’s been a Brave and it’s under .500.

Smith fills up the stat sheet and is young and exciting and has endeared himself to some very passionate fans. But will he carry the team to more wins?

Are we saying that he will eventually be a Chris Paul type of player? If you answer yes then I see the perspective that ASG is very wrong on this situation.

However, for those of us who honestly think that Smith is a good and exciting player, but is not likely to be a player that can make everyone better, we see that ASG is doing the right thing. Though $12 million is not overpaying too terribly much, unless it somehow will preclude the Hawks from making other necessary moves.

I understand the heartbreak for so many fans, but I’m not ready to say that the team cannot improve without Josh Smith on the roster.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

Najeh, have to disagree that BIEDRINS is a ‘huge’ step down from SMOOVE offensively. nah brah, BIEDRINS gets points where JOSH doesn’t, in the paint. and he can flat out run the floor too, especially for a cat 6’11’.

what the combo of BIEDRINS and AH would get ya is continued defensive help, blocked shots, a post game from BIEDRINS. whereas AH slidin’ to the 4 would give you all that HORFORD brings now, plus he’d get more chances from the outside. and i happen to believe he’s got a better stroke than JOSH from the perimeter…not as much range tho. plus AL gets his shot off individually a bit better than SMOOVE right now.

but all that said, i still hope that SMOOVE remains a HAWK!!!

By Ben

July 26, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

Mavs would not trade Brandon Bass—they are thin at Center if he leaves.

Sekou I can’t believe you think Smoove is the closest thing we have to a lockdown one-on-one defender.

Mario West? Speedy Claxton? Even Joe or Acie? Wow

By HHoops

July 26, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

Everybody seems to be into the guessing game as to who the sign & trade proposals are with. Let’s look @ this from a logicial stand point. The Hawks have to have a 5 & a shooter if they are going to really improve from last year. Maybe ASG is serious about making this team into a contender.

These are the possibilities that I see:

Biedrins & a draft pick - J. Smith would fit into Nellie’s scheme.

Bynum - His trainer lives in Atlanta and says that he is healthy. Can you imagine Bynum and Horford in the posts for the Hawks. WOW!

Aldridge - Gives the Hawks a scoring 5.

Bosh - I know, dream on.

Rasheed and Prince - Prince can score and Rasheed has an expiring contract after next year.

Kaman & a 1st round draft pick - I know, I’m not excited about this one either.

Amare S. - Now we’re talking! Horford can stay @ the 5 if we get him.

Dalembert & Iggy - For J. Smith and Zaza. I might have to think about that one. Philly really wanted Josh.

You guys probably have other thoughts. Let’s hear them!

Newkid, I like your post @ 3:34. Do you think that the Lakers would trade Bynum? It would be a gamble for the Hawks since he is coming off of a knee injury. If that trade flys, I would think it would happen closer to training camp, so the Hawks could have more time to evaluate his health.

I just like the fact that the Hawks seem to be trying to improve their team!!!

By ray

July 26, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

Myk, Josh gets points in the paint too, or otherwise you wouldn’t hear people making snide comments about how he’s only worth something to people who appreciate jumping and dunking.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have Biedrins. If losing Josh Smith is something that has to happen, I’d rather us be picking up a guy like Biedrins than a guy like Josh Howard. And instead of arguing a point, I’ll say this: Biedrins brings what we already have in Horford. So, there is a recurring problem here-the inability to provide mismatches down low, as we then have two guys who do the same thing. This puts us back at a frontcourt with little or no perimeter capability.

Unless Marvin suddenly develops a very consistent jumper out to 3-point range (not his usual 15-17 footer), we then only have JJ and Bibby to do the shooting. So, I’d look at a lineup that works like this: Pg-Bibby, Sg-Evans, Sf-JJ, Pf-Horford, C-Biedrins. That gives us three guys capable of scoring from the perimeter, and a not-so-crowed paint area. Add in the fact that Horford is a good passing big man who can also hit a 12-15 foot jumper, and it could work. Just a thought.

By el el

July 26, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

It’d be really nice if we kept Josh Smith, but it just looks like its not going to happen.

If he is looking for 12 million, I feel we should give it to him. Granted his game is inconsistent, he’s a bit of a prima dona, and it seems that sometimes his basketball IQ is around 0, but he’s only 22 years old. He also plays with a lot of heart and works hard at his game. I know its always a gamble to bet on potential, but in his case, I think its worth it. Also, what the ASG group doesn’t seem to understand is that he puts butts in the seats. There are very few hardcore Hawks fans around, and the casual fan doesn’t go to Hawks games to see Joe Johnson (that’s why he’s considered one of the most underrated players in the NBA). The casual fan goes to see J-Smooth dunk in people’s faces and block shots. The point is, he generates a lot of money for the Hawks and is our most marketable player. The Hawks would end up losing more money by letting him go, then by overpaying him.

Any sign-and-trade for him is probably going to make our front management look stupid (not hard) and unless we get a legitimate starting center in return (like that would happen), it would be a big loss for our franchise.

I hear a lot of people mention Biedrins (I’m not going to say anything about Amare or Bynum…QUIT DREAMING, THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN). He’s a good, young center, but if he wants 11 mil a year, its not worth it. Why not just give that kind of money to J-Smoove? He has more upside in my opinion.

It disgusted me that we lost Chills the way we did. But with the signing of Evans and if we can get Luke Jackson to agree to a low-paying contract, I can live it. If we lose J-Smooth, it would be almost impossible to get someone to replace him this year.

By ray

July 26, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Newkid, that is certainly an idea. The question is: do you give up a true center like Bynum? As I understand it, the problem in L.A. is that Jim Buss advised Bynum and his agents to stay away from team doctors and such. So, Bynum does all his rehab, consults his doctors, and works out away from the team. Jeanie Buss is still pi$$ed at him (Jim Bus)about that, seeing that it could cause a fractured relationship between Bynum and the organization/team.

Already we see the Lakers thinking about bringing Kwame back. Do they want Smith? And would we get more for him than Odom? I don’t see them giving up both Odom and Radmanovich, but what do I know? The next question is…does Smith provide a more physical presence, such as the one they need? He certainly provides good defense and great help defense. Who knows…but an interesting idea all the same.

Honest Abe, you hit the nail on the head…

By bentheexpert

July 26, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

“Mario West? Speedy Claxton? Even Joe or Acie? Wow” This is who Ben the Almighty names as Atl lockdown defenders. Thanks, for proving my point. Yes, everyone around the NBA would say these guys are better defenders than Josh Smith. You should apply for a job at ESPN with your expert analysis. I am beginning to think to think we have some Hawks double agents on this site.

By mykhalc

July 26, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this

BIG RAY, you make me clarify my statement ‘cause you are right, SMOOVE DOES get points in the paint too. but NEITHER SMOOVE nor HORFORD gets ‘em like BIEDRINS. fact is, BIEDRINS post game is just more developed than both of our cats right now. and again, i say this havin’ watched ALL GSW games just like the HAWKS. so i’m not makin’ somethin’ up just to blog!!!LOL

and, ‘to me’, BIEDRINS does NOT bring a repeat of HORFORD. he brings a combination of SMOOVE and HORFORD rolled into one.

again, my 2cents after havin’ watched ALL 3 PLAY A LOT!!! but again, gimme SMOOVE but if he’s gotta go then BIEDRINS would ease my pain!!!

By Jonathan

July 26, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Guys and gals you really have to go over this, The chance of the eastern big dog being any other team than the piston IS VERY UNLIKELY!.

On the west side it can be one of many teams simply because what freaking west team is not a powerhouse at the moment. But that’s were who is willing to give up what comes in to play, Let’s begin backwards from the west playoff seeds of this past season.

Denver - they have said they want to get rid of A.I, not only would that give the Hawks another veteran but much needed leadership as well.

Dallas - I kept thinking it over and over and the only option the Mavericks have is josh Howard, but the mavs clearly stated when they nixed the artest trade that they don’t want to give up Howard because they would be taking a huge risk. You can’t blame them Howard is a great player/veteran(and sorry hawks fans but at the moment better than josh).

Phoenix - They are looking for a guard not a forward, they already have an amazing forward in amare stadoumire. It’s very unlikely it’s them.

Houston - It’s unknown when it comes to the rockets, they’ve stated they want to keep mcgrady and yao isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. You add into the fact that they don’t have any other kind of tradable assets that would make this deal go through.

Utah - Another unknown the jazz have rarely been in the news and unsure they are looking more to keep their own than to make a drastic change.

San Antonio - The spurs unlike the jazz are looking to change, or to better put it get younger. Yet i feel to this to go down the spurs would have to give up a key player i.e. Manu or Tony.

N.O. - I honestly have nothing to say here. It is the same as the jazz, At the moment they’re looking to keep their own than make more changes. and well they don’t need to make a trade for smith they just got a key vet in Posey, and they’ve proven to the NBA they’re a team to be reckon with in the west but of course nothing is certain and it could be them.

Finally The Lakers- Now I have to admit I am a Lakers fan so I’m really hoping that, the “west conference power” mentioned is the Lakers. But it’s uncertain as well I’m not sure if the Lakers would be willing to send Odom(most likely to be included in the trade) along with a package of other players possibly Walton, radmonovich, and or mimh. Or a 3 team trade for smith it’s is a huge risk for the lakers, they would be giving up one guaranteed veteran for an unknown sf.

This sucks I hate wondering who those teams are, I wish they simply would have said which teams they were. What’s even worse this could be nothing more than a false rumor.

By Taurus

July 26, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this

Think on this..New Jersey is trying to move Vince Carter in the worse way to have salary cap space for the 2010 free agent market to try to get Lebron. We trade Mike Bibby expiring contract for Vince and Sean Williams(very good defensive PF/C) You have to sign Josh Smith. He’s put up stats that only Olajuwan and David Robinson have put up in the history of the NBA since they’ve been keeping stats. They did it at 27, he’s done it at 22. Yes he’s a bit radical and immature sometimes, but when he’s 25, he’ll be a perennial All-Star. I would sign Morris and K. Brown to 2 year minimum salaries. Yes you would probably take a luxury tax hit, but Vince will but butts in seats and you can make a serious 2-3 year run with this team, also, Acie Law did 4 years of college and this is his second year in the NBA. He was your #10 pick and you should find out this year can he run a team. With all that said your starting 5 and reserves are as followed:

STARTERS: Acie Law Vince Carter Joe Johnson Josh Smith Al Horford

RESERVES: Speedy Claxton Maurice Evans Marvin Williams Zaza S. Williams Morris K. Brown

The fall back is if this doesn’t look promising this year, M. Williams and Zaza are in the final year of their contract and that would be 9.6 million off the books, and the next year Speedy would be in his final year and if Morris and Brown 2 year deal don’t pan out you would be able to clear another 7-8 million off the books the next year.

By 404atlhoops

July 26, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

Earlier this evening, I was watching CBS Sportline hosted by Mark Harmon with Nick Cellini and they mentioned the Detroit sign and trade proposal. I am kind of 50/50 on this deal. The Hawks lose all of their athleticism with this move coupled with the loss of Childress. They go from a team that can run and play up-tempo to bascially a half-court team. I don’t see Odom comming to Atlanta becasue the trade makes no sense for the Hawks. Odom is a four and that essentially means Hortford would have to stay at the five position. That goes against the Hawks desire to add a defensive center so Hortford can move to power forward. However if the Western Conference team is Dallas like everyone on here is speculating, then that wouldn’t be a bad move for the Hawks. Josh Howard has a good basketball IQ and can score as well as play on the ball defense. Brandon Brass is an up and coming player in the league. He’ll probably never be an allstar but he’s developing into a good solid player.

By ray

July 26, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

Well. Looks like Ando has found a new foil, or should I say sacrificial lamb.

And so, a tribue (to what will no doubt be entertaining):

Now what proof do you have that what Gearon said in that column is incorrect, or misleading?

What proof is there that it is not?

Don’t give me you opinion please, I want fact. I want facts that are incontrovertible and leave no doubt to any reasonable person that this man is lying or misleading.

Fool. Who, being that close to the source would openly betray such information on a blog to a stranger?

I want who said what and when. I want a complete timeline from previous seasons to now to back up your claim about the offer or lack thereof. You obviously have access to the organization that I and others don’t have.

Anybody who has been around for so long, lurking in the musty shadows recalls Ando’s singular tale of what happened at a town hall meeting quite some time ago. Here’s the quick version: One of the Hawks owners said right to Ando’s face that the situation with Joe Johnson helped open up an opportunity to force the divorce with Belkin, which was an agenda all along. Ando had witnesses to the event. Witnesses who contribute on this blog. For his trouble, his contribution of incredible information, which inlcuded “who said what and when” was met with ridicule and unbelief.

Like it or not, there are some of us who know more than others here. You never know precisely who is posting what and who is who. The point, however, is that if such information was not believed then, then there is no need to acquiesce to the demand of one person (who is likely as not to mock, and most likely cannot meet his own demands), when it is likely not to be believed now. Nor will Ando make this same mistake twice, I can guarantee you that. His mistake was not the betrayal of information. No, the owner betrayed the info. His mistake was repeating it to people who he thought had a right to know, especially as ticket buyers. I will not repost this entire story and the comments that followed. Those who need proof of it can go back into the archives from a couple years ago. Otherwise, shut up.

Step up with the facts to back up what you say you know or step back.

Looks like a nerve was touched. I wonder if the author can follow this mantra himself? He hasn’t so far…

And both of you need to understand that the weakest argument is always the one that has to try and tear down others in order to make itself look superior.

This is very much like an antelope telling a lion that it only hunts down and devours the antelope in an attempt to prove that it is the predator. Watched national geographic and a bunch of other such shows…the antelope never wins this contest…because it can’t. It can only hope to outrun the lion…for now. Most people will get the drift here.

It might satisfy the usual amen corner(oh look..yes I see that it has already), but I’m not the least bit impressed, better informed, or convinced you’re not just believing the same ol’ suppositions to be true just because people repeat them every day.

If what has been offered over countless posts for years is not enough…then a few more will not do the trick either. The author posts this, sure in the idea that it is impossible to convince him one way. Having seen that he has come to the blog specifically as a contrarian (though he gives them a bad name), one would have to agree! However, the author also steadfastly ignores the fact that he is not able to do the very things he demands. Odd. Or perhaps not.

Now Run And Get Those Facts Already!

Again, for what reason? Perhaps the author should do the same, thereby building the very credibility he claims not to seek. Odd how that works.

All that other crap you guys like to blow out, really is nothing to me.

Yet, the author seems to dabble in this more than any basketball related chatter. One would think he would ignore it, but he just cannot. Strange.

Here’s another clue doc, you want to refute something logical, then you do so with fact. Fact, not opinion, not supposition, but facts show fallacy.

Really? Interpretation of fact has no bearing on this, I suppose. Heh.

And just a few more, as I do not wish to cut and paste EVERY ridiculous word, even though this is a tribute to the author’s style:

And you believe your own pompous nonsense.

Ha Ha! And the other doesn’t?

When you can come with some facts, and not just present your beliefs as such, then you will have real credibilty and not just self righteousness.

Very interesting words from the author, especially when he claims to have no need or desire for real credibility. Now he seeks to define such things? And once again, he is not able to do the very same thing he demands of others. Every word he has ever written serves as proof of this. Has he not presented his beliefs as fact? Has he not been the very definition of self-righteousness?

You should relax, this is just a blog. You take yourself way too seriously.

Again, the author shows no signs of following his own advice. He claims self defense as an alibi. If this place is truly ruled by a “conventional wisdom” and it is so loathsome here…then why does he remain? So much drama, he says. One would think he was addicted to it, given the fact that he stays mired in it. But of course, this is nothing more than yet another diatribe trying to explain what’s wrong with him. How should anyone know the truth of this? Better yet, who cares? But if one wishes to continue to be whipping boy or the underperforming entertainment piece…then so be it. Never takes long for a masochist to find a sadist.

Heh, heh, heh! Too funny…10 to 1 odds that parts of this post get cut and pasted…then ranted on. And yet, even if the odds are wrong, the gambler still wins…heh heh!

Oh…forgot…”Thanks for Playing”

By doc

July 26, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

kirk, belittling j smith is inane much less the comparison to tex. you constantly say how important it was the team made the playoffs and won three games. son, dude where does that compare with tex? how many games has tex won on his own, when has he carried the team or post season games? uh zero.

only jj caried this team more during the season and as a 21 year old no less? NEVER has tex been in a playoff game much less carried the team, the ONLY COMPARISON to smith on the braves is mccann. smith got legit points, tex in wipeup lie the other night and i like tex. is it really part of your over all plan maybe to discredit smith as you did chiils to compensate for the loss? are you a shill for the BASG?

out there two guys make some sense for the hawks, okafor, biedrens. throw in odum, though he does not do the things under pressure that smith did at 22 as he rised up huge on the big stage when it counted and odum shrunk. even prince does little for the hawks as he ONLY fills the hole left with chills gone. maybe prince and the tiny big they have in maxiell. as for the latter he is out of the mold of his gm as is the guy a i wanted in stuckey. bynum no, not yet as he isnt proven unless something of import accompanies him to replace chills’ void. other wise we get the short end of the stick.

amare? dream on, antway that is not the type of vet help that jj would probably approve.

ben, how old are you? three as your range of reasoning suggest that. the only time west locked down on anybody was for 20 seconds on kobe with a messed up finger and he tripped. otherwise the guy was energy and a foul a minute. no cred on that one …. then you brought up acie? come on, if he was such a defender he would have been in games instead of slow lue, even slower aj and broke down bibby. then to even bring up speedy. come on, i have defended speedy as injuries are relevant but the guy has no ability to clamp down on anyone if he is not even in the arena.

ben, you here for comic relief? you are doing your job well.

sekou, great plant of ben to keep it interesting. kind of like tommy smothers of the ole smothers brothers routine.

ray, biedrens or okafor might begin to make up for the loss of both chills and smith as long as they get the guy woody can live with as a shooter as we need another one if evans is the lock down guy a role he has never played by the way.

hmmm siad 65 to 75 to sign smith last year, folks scoffed. bout time to pony up. a lot of drama could have been avoided. as ando says if he is in the fold he is an aset otherwise if he signs the one year NOTHING. let us see if the BASG has learned anything about protecting their properties.

oh yeah, I GUESS if the BASG didnt learn it during their divorce how can we expect it now as their divorce has cost them a lot more than bickering over whether to add a mil a year to chills and smith’s contracts. geez the defintion of crazy?

w.h. auden:

WE WOULD RATHER BE RUINED THAN CHANGED;

WE WOULD RATHER DIE IN OUR DREAD

THAN CLIMB THE CROSS OF THE MOMENT

AND LET OUR ILLUSIONS DIE

BASG motto revealed.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

doc, you are a moron.

I said Smoove is not a good MAN defender.

All those players I mentioned are better than Smoove man-to-man, and at least 3 other people in this blog have supported my statement that Smoove is NOT a good man defender.

Speedy Claxton is an incredible man defender and pressures the HELL out of the other players. If you watched some of the games he played in 2006-2007, this guy was hassling players all over the place.

Smoove will just guard his man, let him get by, and rely upon blocking the shot or just not play man defense in the post like he should.

T.Lue and AJ were in the game instead of Law because Woodson Looooooooves the vets and Acie wasn’t entirely healthy, so Woodson of course didn’t risk it. Simple enough.

Mario is an incredible man defender, much like Speedy—he hassles whoever he guards. Billy Knight even said it himself—-other players hate being guarded by Mario on the ball. I don’t think Smoove scares anyone with his MAN (1-on-1) defense. The guy obviously is an incredible WEAKSIDE and TRANSITION shot blocker, but he is NOT a good MAN DEFENDER.

CAN YOU READ?

By doc

July 26, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this

coming from you ben based on your skills at evaluation moron is a compliment.

i’ll stand by my statements, firmly. argue maybe that jj as you said or even horford are better maybe chills god rest his soul but not the other cats as a better defender, uh no just over stating you case. doubt horford or jj would agree with the assessment.

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

doc

Belittle? Didn’t I just say the Hawks should give him his $12 million? Yes I did.

Have I often stated that I recognize that the guy is athletic, exciting, and such? Yes I have.

Haven’t I often stated that if the Hawks kept him I would have no big issue with that decision? Yes again!

So where you got belittling is a mystery worthy only to yourself(ok maybe you a a predictable few others).

Again you mischaracterize something I say in order to make yourself look smart, stupid, something, heck I don’t know .

The word “playoff” doesn’t even appear anywhere in those comments yet here you are talking about playoffs?

The comparison between Smith and Tex was in regards to having great individual numbers, yet the team still has a losing record.

It is my opinion that Josh Smith is a good player, an exciting player, but I have doubts that he will develop into the kind of player that makes everyone around him better.

You obviously disagree. Oh well.

When it comes to sports, it is hardly a surprise for people to have varying opinion about players. I’m not going to apologize for my perspective about Smith.

You need to find some way too deal with that pops.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

Again, doc ignores the fact I said “MAN”.

Ok good night buddy.

By the way, I’m a student at UGA with a top GPA and am a diehard Hawks fan.

I said Horford and JJ were better man defenders earlier, and everyone laughed at me, so I went the extra yard and included Speedy and Acie and Mario, which they are.

have a good life man.

Attacking people for stating their opinions—wow, you need to see a psychiatrist

By Volman

July 26, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

BENny Boy, we don’t need personal attacks on here. And YES, I am the blog police. I haven’t posted much recently because I’ve been busy but I am enjoying everyone’s CIVILIZED conversations.. but cmon, we don’t need to attack and name-call others for difference of opinions…

To everyone else, I really don’t know if I want to see Smoove gone… BUT, if that brings in some PROVEN veterans, it might be worth…

Which veterans though, I do not know. I would mind Amare, but that’s a pipe dream.

WHEN WILL THIS GET FIGURED OUT! haha. Go Hawks!

By roan st

July 26, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this

The real question we should be asking is exactly how much is Josh Smith worth. I think 5yr 50 million is a fair contract for what he brings at this point in his career. And if the hawks needed to bend a little and give him 11 million per like Golden State did with monta Ellis that would be reasonable. But I can’t blame the team for not wanting to shell out 12 or 13 million because his game still has a long way to go before justifying that kind of a contract. If you look around the league at other teams negotioations with their resticted free agents you will see the same quandry. Deng, Biedrens, Iggy, gordon, okafor, smith- all fall into the categorie of good young players who are not quite all-stars yet. It’a a big risk for any team to give these guys a mega deal at this juncture in their careers. None are even proven consistent 20 plus point scorers in the league. Only ellis has broken the 20 average last year at 20.2 per game. How can you give a guy a 65-70 million dollar contract who averages 17-18 points a game? I wouldn’t.

By benjamoto

July 26, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this

First comes first. Sign Smith to a deal that he likes. That’s the obvious part.

The second part is questioning whether we try to get him to stay or if we just admit that he doesn’t want to play in Atlanta anymore and start searching for trade possibilities. I think the latter is the way to go. Smith is probably even more frustrated than we are with Hawks management. I’m sure he’d rather leave.

Last, we gotta find an equal replacement. I think the only possible AND favorable trade possibilities are Smith for Bynum (assuming he is healthy) or Smith for Amare. I’ll be honest I’m not sure how much either are making money-wise right now or when their contract expires and I can’t be bothered to look it up but whichever of those make the most financial sense should be what we do because they are both equal replacements. Bibby/JJ/Marvin(unfortunately)/Horford/Amare or Bynum is a pretty good line up.

I don’t like the Howard/Odom moves simply because they are getting old. You can’t give up a 22 yr old future star for a guy who is getting old and is most likely about a year away from starting to decline.

I don’t like the Emeka trade that some ppl have brought up because I severly doubt Smith will go to another project franchise.

By doc

July 26, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

chuckle.

sekou says:

He is by far the Hawks’ best overall defender and one of the league’s top three help defenders because of his ability to block shots. If you don’t believe it go back and check Doc Rivers’ offensive playoff scheme against the Hawks, which was designed to neutralize Josh Smith’s ability to alter shots around the basket.

ben reveals his bias:

have never been a huge Smoove fan. I bought his jersey because I wanted a Hawks jersey of the new Unis and his was the only available at The Sports Authority.

who do i choose as credible on smith’s contribution on defense, an undergrad at uga with a top gpa which i doubt is as high as my own daughters who has to suffer with my gene pool…. or sekou, much less my own?

kirk, dont misconstrue or overlook the point i was commenting to take it further that josh should not be compared to tex because smith has carried his team. tex hasnt and that is the point which you cant refute in spite of his good numbers each has put up i even gave the appropriate comparison to mccann which you ignored as a clutch player. smoove rose to the challenge, tex has never and there the twain never meets. very unfair comparison for a kid 21 to play like he did as consistently as any other hawk including jj and far surpassing bibby who everyone is hanging a lot of hope on for this year. shameful to misrepresent facts in such a way.

By Ben

July 26, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this

Lol doc.

The fact I am not a J Smoove fan has nothing to do with my disliking of his man defense (which you still haven’t acknowledged). I dislike him because he can’t dribble the ball and takes way too many ill-advised shots—that’s it.

I could care less how others feel about Smoove. I formulated my own opinions, watch EVERY Hawk game, and I say how I feel.

I am no longer posting on this board under this name, as people fail to respect my opinion about Smoove.

Good night everybody.

And to Volman, I only called him a moron because he questioned how old I am. To question a 20 year old young man who states his opinion and crucify him for exercising his Freedom of Speech Right is vulgar and inexplicable.

Bye.

By kirknga

July 26, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this

doc

Again, the conversation was about players with great stats on teams with losing records. We were not talking about who was clutch.

Smith “has carried his team” to a losing record! Just as Tex has done. Yet both are good players and put up good numbers.

The whole point of playing is to win.

Get back to me when you can say he carried his team..to a winning season. Or carried his team to the second round of the playoffs or Conference Finals, something like.

But he carried his team to 37 wins and I’m supposed to believe he’s going to be what? A superstar?

Sorry, but the 37 wins are a fact that leads me to believe he is a good player, but not a great one.

Whether he develops into a great one, I don’t know, neither do you or anyone else on this blog.If he does then I will acknowledge that I was wrong.

But with 37 wins? Please.

By doc

July 26, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

oh come on ben, dont tuck butt and give up so quickly with that hurt look on your face. stand by your comments or change them, it really isnt that important especially to give up your name.

and yes you really just dont like smoove in spite of his talents and that is what it boils down to and ALL can see it but you i guess. it doesnt make you a bad person at all. envious of his stature that you may never achieve but that is okay too. come on we like you we really do even if you dont like the way smoove dribbles, shoots or plays defense. it is your opinion and yours alone and it is just as right as anyones.

when you turn 21 i’ll take you out and maybe have a drink when i come up to visit my daughter, no hard feelings?

speaking of crucify read auden above, it will be something to learn tonight as uga may not have you read to much liberal arts stuff. i am not serious about most of this but that might be something to hang onto.

By Nate ArchiBALL

July 26, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this

Sekou, Thanks for the 2:28 PM post. I sometimes wonder if some of our fellow bloggers are really watching the Hawk games. But we all have our own opinions - that’s the fun in blogging.

I do remember Woody putting Josh on Dwayne Wade and Steve Nash in the final minutes of games. Yes, Josh Smith - not Joe, Marvin, Al, Mario ,,,,,,,,,,

By doc

July 26, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this

i thought you were so proud of the accomplishments of getting into the playoffs kirk, no?

and the big stage is where smith didnt back down, can you dispute it?

tex hasnt sniffed it yet but again on a day to day trip in a team game you cant hang it on one guy for a season can you or does that mean jj is not worth 14 mil or bibby not 15? maybe jj is the equivalent one for the tex comparison as he is the vet and is glorified on the losing team, no? doubt you will see the point but that is okay.

no kirk and i hope you dont disagree the whole point is to get the BASG to put together a team to win. get back with me when they do and i’ll say that i am wrong, suspect if smoove goes to where sekou suggests, i might get back to you sooner than you get back to me. heh heh

By doc

July 26, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this

ultimately kirk and ben i think you will be surprised at who finally gets smoove and how much they pay for him as an expression of how much you may be understating his worth. it is your cred, he could be to the hawks what favre was to the falcon organization. it will also be the way to use finally an asset to put back the team to the loss of chill, remember said earlier today odum wears a huge choke collar whereas smoove stood as tall as anyone in the playoffs against the celts and prince leaves us with severe holes if he is marked to come here as suggested by some earlier. playing with dumars is playing with the devil. neither will do what he could do, the smith kid … dude is a stud.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this

Kirk i’ll give you some facts

Managements Giude to Mediocrity

BK was the only person to even let this franchise sniff success. With him out of the picture, I have no doubt the franchse will…….

Stay tuned for next weeks episode of Penny Pinchers.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this

After reading about our franchise decisions over the past decacade, What leads you to beleive that Gearon has a plan????

…..BK had a plan, not upper management.

By mike jackson

July 27, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

How does prince leave us with huge holes? a deadly 3 pt shooter, who has the longest arms I’ve ever seen, good defender, and can play many positions. o yea, a mature and intelligent basketball player too.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

doc

You continue to holler about points not made. What is really the deal with that???

Smith and Tex both put up great numbers yet their teams have losing records. That, and that alone was the point I raised at that point in the discussion.

I’m not comparing anything else because anything else isn’t relevant to the point I was making.

You don’t want to discuss that so you keep zigging and zagging and changing the subject.

So I’ll ask you flat out. Smith and Tex both put up great numbers, but over the time they have been with their teams, their teams have a losing record.

True or False?

And look, I get that you are a hater of ownership. You tells us so everyday all day. I get it!

That’s how you feel and so be it. But I’m not going to try and convince you of something I know you don’t believe. What’s the point in that?

Keep your hate for ASG and your love for Smith. I’m ok with that.

Now please answer my question.

By ray

July 27, 2008 12:17 AM | Link to this

What confuses me is what people keep wanting to say about Smith that just isn’t shared by most people, let alone the ones who get paid to analyze things like this. Everybody acknowledges Josh’s weaknesses. But he is also acknowledged for other things, which some people refuse to give him credit for (and you know who you are). The below is from Draft Express (analysis is updated as of early May, this year)and some parts have been highlighted by me. This is about as fair and detailed a profile of Smith as I have seen, and is shared by many in the league:

Offense: Improved on the offensive end during each of his first three seasons as a pro. Came into the League with a smooth albeit raw left-handed stroke, and has developed it into a somewhat consistent weapon, although he still has a tendency to fall in love too much with his outside shot, and display very questionable shot-selection. Has improved considerably from his first year in the League, but is still inefficient in Atlanta’s half-court offense. Is much better in one-on-one and transition situations. Gets roughly thirty-percent of his offense in spot-situations, where he tends to either shoot right away or take the ball to the basket driving in either direction. Utilizes his athleticism extremely well. Frequently elevates over taller defenders when attacking the rim. Aggressiveness gets him to the line at a very solid clip. Has a very nice hook shot he likes to go to around the paint. Could definitely stand to improve his free throw routine. Plays on the ball for the Hawks at times. Is an above average passer for his size. Tends to turn the ball over when he puts it on the floor against experienced defenders. Ball-handling skills and shot-creating tools definitely need work. Attacks the offensive glass. Still needs to mature in other areas such as reading defenses and moving off the ball.

Defense: Arguably the best young defender in the NBA. Shows the uncanny ability to translate his athleticism into big plays. Few players show as much dedication running down plays and preventing transition baskets as Smith. Has made a number of highlight reel blocks in his career in which he ran down a ball-handler to send what seemed like an easy layup attempt into the stands. Shows the ability to not only dart into passing lanes for deflections, but also to rotate from the weak-side to block shots in half-court settings. Impressive dedication to rebounding. Shows an acumen for crashing the boards that isn’t common amongst wing players. Doesn’t do the best job boxing out, but compensates with unreal length and jumping ability. Able to recover even when he over pursues his man when closing out due to his huge strides and explosive quickness. Commits quite a few fouls, but it comes as no surprise for a player as aggressive as he is.

And from teammate Al Horford (via Q&A article with Sekou):

I could play a little more (power forward) if they need me to, but I feel comfortable playing at (center) and (power forward). That’s actually one of the reasons that I feel getting Josh Smith back here is so crucial. Because I feel like we have some great mismatches when the two of us are out there together. I think it’s what makes both of us more effective, being out there together. We never got totally overwhelmed by anybody. And I can’t imagine being out there and him not having my back on every play. What we really need is for (backup center Zaza Pachulia) to come in and play big minutes so when we do decide to go with different lineups, me playing some at power forward and even Josh playing some at small forward, we have guys that are up to the task.

There. No fluff, no puff, no drama. Analysis from those who get paid to do it, and direct quotes from a teammate. It may not be facts, as some will demand that there be, but it’s damn close, and a hell of a lot more than others have come up with to augment their opinion. Refute it if you will, but I’ll believe the man’s teammate, and I’ll accept the assessment of someone who is an “expert” and has no reason to be biased either way.

By Willis

July 27, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this

I’m tired of Josh Smith and his tirades, the latest of which involves money (surprise, surprise). Don’t re-sign him! He’s a time bomb with the coaching staff as soon as he sees that gauranteed money. I’d trade him for Lamar Odom in a heartbeat. Get Odom away from Kobe Bryant, and Odom will flourish like he did in Miami. A front court of Horford and Odom will make us a much better team next season, probably at least 47 wins.

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this

Kirk, you’re all over the place. One minute you’re highlighting your belief that Smith is worth $12 million/year. Mere posts later, you inaccurately shackle him with the “team leader” tag, when he was, at best, the teams’ third option, behind JJ and Bibby, during the playoffs.

He didn’t “carry” this team to 37 wins, but I’m rock-solid confident that without him, they wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs. You diminish his value for failing to reach superstar status while, at only 22, he’s just scratching the surface of his potential.

Monta Ellis isn’t a superstar yet either. Nor is Kevin Martin, or Al Jefferson. If Smith was inflexibly demanding a max contract, in light of the contracts some of these peers have already signed, then what you seem to be inferring would have some merit.

But, quite confusedly, you readily support paying him $12 million a year. So what, exactly is your beef or your position? I’ve not heard a single report suggesting that Smith is demanding, or expecting, a max deal.

So how convoluted is it for you to seemingly support the perspective of ownership, when Smith, as an unfinished, but already established future star, is merely seeking both a reasonable, market-defined contract, which you then say is quite reasonable?

You seem more interested in jousting with windmills than engaging in any kind of consistent line of thought.

Like with Ellis, in GS, who is an explosive scorer, but who has yet to demonstrate an ability to successfully run the point, and who had an atrocious assist/turnover ratio last year, Smith is an unfinished product. But, as Golden State has seen enough of Ellis to project him as a primary component of their future teams (and as is true with Kevin Martin and Al Jefferson), the Hawks need to have the good sense to recognize a unique talent when they see one, and commit to him a reasonable, market-supported contract, that not only lets him know he’s counted on here, but places high expectations on him to perform to his potential and justify his contract.

If he was 27, based on some of the weaknesses of his current game, the idea that valid questions exist as to his ability to lead this team would be quite reasonable.

But he’s 22, and getting better every day.

Roan says a guy should be a 20-point scorer to get big bucks. But if you’ve played the game, at a fairly competitive level, then you understand just how tiny the gap is between his 18 ppg, and Roan’s arbitrary 20. You’d know just how close 8.2 rebounds are to 10. You’d know that with just one more block, every five games, his 2.8 average would be 3. Those improvements in his production are easily attainable for a player his age, in a game where most basketball experts view 27 as roughly the peak age for most players.

And if he made those moderate improvements, then suddenly, we have a forward who averages 20 points, 10 boards and 3 blocks, which is some seriously rarified air (the kind of production that got Jermaine O’Neal $20 million a year).

What astounds me is that making those minor improvements is so realistic, and should be easily comprehended by the ASG, that I simply do not understand what in the world their position, or perspective, is, in driving this kid away.

The most simple answers (correct me if I’m missing something here) are that the ASG is truly, completely broke. Or, they’re truly, completely, that freakin’ stupid.

Either way, it does not bode well for a satisfactory resolution, as far as Hawks fans are concerned.

By doc

July 27, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this

yes and so have mccann and jj, so which does the analogy best fit, young stars in the making or vets with the true gaudy numbers. answered? get my point yet?

yours is a POOR ANALOGY!

dont hate anything kirk, see it differently they have botched it and continue to try and recover. it is like watching john daly play golf and i really like him, promise no hate. how can you put such words in my mouth as you decry others the same towards you, no? said many times holographic universe, one like mind just different view.

yeah, i like that , like watching john daly, tough playing out of the rough with a hangover, love him anyway. so i guess i love the BASG.

By ray

July 27, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this

Hitching Josh Smith to the 37 win record is not relevant. That’s another example of throwing out another useless argument or question.

Smith isn’t worth max money yet, but where is the proof that he is trying to get it? Where is the post that says he deserves it? Where are all the FACTS to support these theories. We know where the theories are coming from. But no facts coming from the same source. Odd.

Back to the 37 wins. Would we hitch the same cart to Marvin Williams? How about Speedy? Zaza, perhaps? No? Let me tell where things are relevant. If you hitch this stupid cart to Joe Johson, then you’re going somewhere. Smith will not be paid what Joe or even his backcourt mate Bibby are making. No way. And he shouldn’t. Yet some want to act as if this is all on Smith. Oh, he has only led us to 37 wins. And since when does it make any sense to lean on your 22 year old 3-4 million dollar a year forward to lead the team when you have a $14.5 million dollar pg, and a $14 or $15 million dollar sg, whom you also dropped a decently talented young forward and two 1st round picks for?

Hitching the wrong horse to a cart. If you’re going to do this, you do it to JJ. He’s the team captain. He’s the leader. He’s the guy they said they’d build around. Smith is a very good player who can become an all-star VERY soon. The problem is, JJ is just now becoming an all-star. He wasn’t quite ready to be “The Man” here, and he found out the hard way what it means to be such.

Being an all-star isn’t necessarily being a superstar. JJ isn’t a superstar…yet. In the meantime, if you don’t have a superstar like Lebron, Kobe, Wade, etc…you build a team of very good players. And you have to pay very good money to keep very good guys around. Smith is one of those guys. Very few guys in the NBA can do what he’s capable of doing overall. He’s not yet worth the 14-15 mil per year that JJ and Bibby are getting. But I think he’s worth 11 or even 12. Worse case scenario, he disappoints, and you end up using him as an asset to get something else that makes you better.

Again, worse case scenario…you have to sign and trade. Get something you can hold onto for a while. And if you’re not going to keep what you get, then make sure it’s something that you can use to get what you need. But don’t let the guy go for a one year tender. That is so stupid. And don’t trade for guys that don’t help, or squander opportunities to use them as assets.

Mike Jackson, Tayshaun is great if you want a guy to upgrade Marvin’s position. In the meantime, who’s gonna play power forward?

Tell you what we end up with, considering the fact that we’ve only made one free agent acquisition: Zaza at center, Horford at PF, and Tayshaun at SF. I’m missing Smoove already…

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this

SalimFan

That article goes all the way back to…2003! Um, ok.

BK was the only person to even let this franchise sniff success.

That is so wrong I believe it’s a joke. Because when a Hawks fan talks about ‘franchise” then that fan surely understands that the “franchise” has been to the Finals before. Is that not success?

Surely a fan wouldn’t disregard a NBA Championship? I don’t believe BK was around then, but hey what the heck.

Oh, and what about the Hubie Brown era and Mike Fratello era, and the Lenny Wilkens era?

The Hawks use to rule this town with respect to the professional teams!

Was there no success then? Was BK around then?

If you want to say there is a history of making some bad choices, fine I’ll go with that. Has it been a bad decade, heck yeah!

But to say the “franchise” only tasted success(huh?) under BK…LOL!!

Look you guys, I get you hate ownership. Hey cool whatever. But the fact remains no matter how much hate you offer everyday all day, the reality is the owners we got is the owners we got.

No amount of complaining is going to change it.

Not everyone is going to share this intense negative energy you have for ASG.

It’s unfortunate that you have severe issues with differences of perspective.

Me, I’m a Hawks fan, through it all.

I’ll bash the team when I feel it’s called for, I’ll praise them should I judge the situation appropriate for it.

That’s me. I’m not asking anyone else to be me or start acting up and out when they don’t agree with me.

And I’m not going to run away like some poor souls who apparently take people here as seriously as they take themselves.

Go Hawks!!!!!

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this

Someone earlier mentioned $50 million over 5 years for Josh Smith. That may have been a reasonable offer on the first day of free agency if the DASG had agreed to making such an offer. Unfortunately at this stage in free agency, after people like Monta Ellis have signed for $12 million a year, Josh Smith is rightfully gonna demand at least that much. If the DASG has any desire to keep J-Smoove around they should offer him the same contract Ellis got right now.

By doc

July 27, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this

guess it was past ben’s bedtime. night, night.

By Anon.

July 27, 2008 12:55 AM | Link to this

kirknga,

There are good players on every team that fails to win enough. Mark Teixeira is not the reason the Atlanta Braves are mediocre. If the Braves had better players around Mark Teixeira, the team would be better.

The same is true for Josh Smith, who, by the way, is not as good of a basketball player as Mark Teixeira is a baseball player.

Josh Smith, like Mark Teixeira, is merely a good piece to the puzzle of winning games. Since good teams need several good pieces to be good, one might opine that both Josh Smith and Mark Teixeira shouldn’t be jettisoned from their teams. In fact, their teams should add more players of complimentary abilities to take better advantage of the talents both men possess.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this

As far as Tayshaun is concerned… if people were hating on Childress as being “replaceable” for putting up 12 and 5 in 30 minutes, what is a guy who puts up 13 and 5 in 32 minutes? I’ll be the first to say stats ain’t everything, but in terms of statistical production alone Tayshaun’s a lot closer to Childress than to Smith. And like Ray pointed out, he can’t play power forward. Tayshaun’s a nice team player, but let’s not forget, while the Pistons were contenders he was at best the 4th most talented player on the floor at any given time. He’s a good glue guy, nothing more. If he’s the guy the Hawks get back for J-Smoove that’s pretty sad.

The Hawks need to target a big man. I know it’s supposedly taboo to trade within the division, but out of the realistically available trades right now I would think trading him for Okafor is the best possible scenario. Yeah it would suck to see Josh 4 times a year in an opposing uniform, but bringing Okafor in would solve some problems for this team.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this

kirk sincrely thanks for the pep talk.

did you get the answer to your question.

no hate just concern, granny may have a transplant and i am worried about her. seems ike she has been moved hgher on the national transplant directory board. yup ,you cant ignore the fact she is in trouble can you kirk in spite of your cheerleading.

i have seen good cheerleaders for zero win teams kirk. sat among 1000 people at a braves game at old atlanta stadium cheering them on. finally it took a owner that wanted to win and isnt that what you screamed foremost you wanted. if you do you need to ask them nicely to sign some more real nba players and see if woody can coach em up. that is all the cheerleading i am doing.

is that what you want here no discourse? if folks dont agree with you they are haters and they arent true fans? UNFAIR I SAY, kirk.

incidentally transplants come with significant side effects that can cause cancer down the road, just concerned that is all and no hate or malice meant.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 1:14 AM | Link to this

Anon (or whoever you are)

Look at what I said, did I say Tex or Smith were the reasons for their team’s losses? No. So again you’re making stuff up again.

What is with people who can’t stay on point.

You guys shouldn’t be so happy that you ran someone away. We’re all supposed to be fans of the Atlanta Hawks.

Why you like messing with people who are fans of the same team as you I really don’t know.

But oh well.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this

doc

I’m not the one with the issue, but nice try.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:17 AM | Link to this

thanks for making sense najeh. not equal value there unless maxiel comes with him.

prince would have been a sign and trade for chills if they wanted him. if that is the guy, we still need a big body like brown down under and not morris at his tender age.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:29 AM | Link to this

people that run, were looking for reasons to run. or had a late date on a saturday night in athens ga or anywhere ga at 20.

everyone is welcome to have the standard of free speech why not i? to say i or anyone else cant say something to ben to juxtapose his idea with their own, isnt it taking away their own free speech kirk? just needs a little thicker skin or to maybe say something that isnt as easy to dispute.

kirk, now did i answer your question? i said yes, which is what you wanted to hear, right, agreement or better yet you understand my point jj is a better analogy to tex based on level of experience and expectation. unfair to the smith boy but the smith boy stood in there a little better than the ben boy from uga, no?

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 1:32 AM | Link to this

Actually Kirk it starts from the 98-99 season….did you read carefully???

Kirk, you are veering off topic.

1) I said in the last decade, what leads you to beleive that this management is trustworthy.

2) We are talking about the ATLANTA Hawks franchse. Not the one in St. Louis. YOU KNOW THAT. If this franchise was in St.louis noone would be on this blog right now, nor would they give a damn.

3) I’m pretty sure no one on this bolg remebers what tanspired in a championchip won 50 years ago. (Don’t respond to this because it’s OFF TOPIC, just setting the record dtraight).

4) The Article ONLY goes back a decade because we live in the present and there are probably very few people from those times still working in Phillips (Don’t ask me how I know that, who really cares??).

WE are dealing with the CURRENT ATLANTA HAWKS and their recent decisions.

So I ask again. Based on that Historical overview of this franchises’ decisions over the past decade, what leads you to believe that they actually have a good Non-Penny Pinching plan that doesn’t involve running this franchise into the ground???? What makes Gearons OBVIOUS spin so trust worthy????

Yes these are the owners we are stuck with OBVIOUSLY. So, whats our point??? They are copletly diffrent for the ones the Champoinship 50 years ago. I cant tell ou that much.

Kirk, I don’t want you to run. I just want you to answer the question…..Ben when you wake up fell free to weigh in also.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:35 AM | Link to this

do my best kirk. thanks.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 1:42 AM | Link to this

Actually SalimFan you said : BK was the only person to even let this franchise sniff success.

Bk was the only one. That’s what you said man. If you wanted to just go back 10 years then cool say that up front. No problem.

But you didn’t and now you’re coming at me like you did.

Whatever then.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:43 AM | Link to this

salim, funny you should say that. i actually became a hawks fan in 1957 and have watched them ever since. it was about the same time i became a braves fan as well. funny both ended up home teams for me as they came to me.

did you know the hawks actually drafted bill russell and who they got for him actually helped them short term to win a championship? now only the kings franchise has been longer without an nba ring or banner. salim it is relevent, i think if smith goes then it will be the type of misery for an atlanta fan that was felt as favre year in and year out did his thing or watch russell do his magic.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this

(Posted again for clarity) My computer re-booted on me.

Actually Kirk it starts from the 98-99 season….did you read carefully???

Kirk, you are veering off topic.

1) I said in the last decade, what leads you to beleive that this management is trustworthy.

2) We are talking about the ATLANTA Hawks franchse. Not the one in St. Louis. YOU KNOW THAT. If this franchise was in St.Louis no one would be on this blog right now, nor would they give a damn.

3) I’m pretty sure no one on this bolg remebers what tanspired in a championchip won 50 years ago. (Don’t respond to this because it’s OFF TOPIC, just setting the record dtraight).

4) The Article ONLY goes back a decade because we live in the present and there are probably very few people from those times still working in Phillips (Don’t ask me how I know that, who really cares??).

WE are dealing with the CURRENT ATLANTA HAWKS and their recent decisions.

So I ask again. Based on that Historical overview of this franchises’ decisions over the past decade, what leads you to believe that they actually have a good Non-Penny Pinching plan that doesn’t involve running this franchise into the ground???? What makes Gearons OBVIOUS spin so trust worthy????

Yes these are the owners we are stuck with OBVIOUSLY. So, whats your point??? They are copletly diffrent for the ones that won the Champoinship 50 years ago. I can tell you that much.

Kirk, I don’t want you to run. I just want you to answer the question…Ben when you wake up fell free to weigh in also.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 1:55 AM | Link to this

Kirk, I am referring to my 12:04 AM post.

Sorry if I confused you.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 1:56 AM | Link to this

Kirk, I am referring to the question in my 12:04 AM post.

Sorry if I confused you.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 2:08 AM | Link to this

This is What I wrote…

After reading about our franchise decisions over the past decacade, What leads you to beleive that Gearon has a plan????

I was reffering to the past decade that was covered in the article I posted Here.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 2:19 AM | Link to this

What leads you to beleive that Gearon has a plan????

I believe Gearon wants to win. It’s in his best interest for the team to win as the value of his investment will rise if the team is successful.

A plan, well if he said we’re working on some things. Some people believed him. I took it at face value.

Now, the day after, we’re told that there are “blockbuster deals” the Hawks have under consideration, should they not come to terms with Smith.

So based on this, I am incline to believe what he said may be true.

I also allow for the possibility that the Hawks can be improved without Smith if they make good decisions.

Should a trade happen, we will be able to evaluate when the season ends, if the trade was good, bad, or a draw.

I already acknowledged that the franchise has a history of making some bad decisions. It’s not as if I pretend otherwise.

Like I said, I recognize the good, and the bad.

If someone else wants to damn ownership because of the losing record the past decade, that’s ok. I get it.

But it doesn’t upset me or drive me to cast aspersions or speak down to someone just because they disagree with me.

I don’t believe someone is crazy, or stupid, or gullible, or under-informed, or deserving of ridicule because we disagree.

I think that is the true dividing line here.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 2:20 AM | Link to this

Doc, Sorry lol. I didn’t knoe that they drafted Bill russell.

I didn’t mean to offend ou Doc. I know things like that stick with you. Kirk was not answering my question and I simply wanted him to get back on topic.

The article I was referring to only focused on the decisions made by the Hawks in this past decade. Kirk knows that (If he did indeed read it). BK and the current management were not leading this franchise back in the 50’s…..I am choking on this current smokescreen lol.

By doc

July 27, 2008 2:34 AM | Link to this

yeah i read the article you posted.

now what sticks? it is all good. never any offense. just stay on the defense right? heh heh

yup, well said kirk, now if they can just get it in the fairway and keep it there. if they dont, we can all agree to disagree how it ended up in the swamp.

By VT32209

July 27, 2008 2:35 AM | Link to this

This just in… GSW Trades Al Harrington, Brandan Wright, and Marco Belinelli for Josh Smith. Please believe it! Nuff said and I’m OUTTTT!

By Willis

July 27, 2008 2:38 AM | Link to this

I’m tired of Josh Smith and his tirades, the latest of which involves money (surprise, surprise). Don’t re-sign him! He’s a time bomb with the coaching staff as soon as he sees that gauranteed money. I’d trade him for Lamar Odom in a heartbeat. Get Odom away from Kobe Bryant, and Odom will flourish like he did in Miami. A front court of Horford and Odom will make us a much better team next season, probably at least 47 wins.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this

Kirk, you seem to just go with the flow. Taking whatever happens at face value. As a fan, it’s an admirable trait.

I can’t do it though. I can’t take questionable decisions and just smile or have faith like you do. Good thing everyone is not like that though. If it were not for that media backlash, im not so sure Sund would have even persued Mo Evans. Thank GOD for the media sometimes lol.

I also understand the last part of your post too. you have been taking on a lot of verbal sparring because of your view (and other things) but mainly your view lol.

I don’t insult though. I just stick to Basketball.

By justtoadd

July 27, 2008 2:45 AM | Link to this

“roan st” Rasheed Wallace, Kenyon Martin, Dwight Howard(avg 17ppg when he received his extension). How about comparing Smith and Rashard Lewis from last year? Rashard is going to avg. over 20 million for his contract. Smith had a better all-around season than him. Rasheed was an all-star avg 14pts and 7 rebounds. Smith was avg. 18pts and 8rbs. Do you realize that Smith might want to leave because he knows this franchise is proving how bad it is. Also he might get a chance to play with a pg and coach who might get him easy baskets. I think people on this blog are too negative regarding specific players. Mike Bibby sucked last year and JJ shot 40%. Marvin Williams will never be more than a role player(just being honest) and no one says a word. Zaza played like a sissy for the whole year. His highlight was almost getting into a fight with KG. People act like he had a great playoff. He avg. 4 ppg and 3rpg and had a 28fg%.

Josh Smith was the “8th on 9th on the pay scale for the Hawks”. Lorenzon Wright, Speedy,Marvin, Sheldon, AJ, Ty Lue all made more money than him last season. I would want a big raise if I was him. One of the lowest paid guys on the team but he is responsible for their 37 win season.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 2:57 AM | Link to this

The PAIN and misery from Crappy management decisions stick with you.

I agree it’s defenetly relevent. It’s our franchise history. It just was not relevent to the question I was trying to get kirk to answer.

….and I meant if kirk had read the article lol. I’m glad you read it too though hehe.

If we trade smoove, I personally will not take it well. Unless we get sombody really nasty in return….That probably will not happen so I say we just pay the man his money.

By ray

July 27, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this

SalimFan, I read what you posted. I recall that you specifically said “in the last decade”. He thought he had you over a barrel and was wrong. Don’t be looking for an admission any time soon. But then, I’d expect mistakes like that from somebody who is not only a liar (as evidenced by several posts that are contrary to various claims), but seems to have frequent attacks of dyslexia or Freudian slips during posts. Heh.

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this

Here’s Kirk engaging in a wholly unqualified judgment on my person, calling me pompous:

“And you believe your own pompous nonsense”

And, less than 24 hours later, here’s Kirk demonstrating a comical mix of hypocrisy and absolute evidence that he’s the proverbial pot calling the kettle pompous:

“But it doesn’t upset me or drive me to cast aspersions or speak down to someone just because they disagree with me.

I don’t believe someone is crazy, or stupid, or gullible, or under-informed, or deserving of ridicule because we disagree.”

Kirk, where I come from, calling someone pompous (especially when it’s predicated on subjective opinion, rather than the construct of fact that you continually demand, but never actually represent, as it relates to your opinions) is casting an aspersion, and/or an attempt to ridicule them.

I don’t expect that you’re capable, or willing, to let go of your need to place yourself on an intellectual pedestal. You clearly are engaging in projection when you suggest that other folks here need to take themselves a little less seriously. But the height of arrogance, nay, megalomania, is defined by the level of certainty you seek to represent, that you’re smarter than everyone here.

I can’t speak for guys like doc, who is a retired vascular surgeon, but you’re disjointed, evasive, ever-changing pseudo logic is equal parts hilarious, pitiable and, when feeling charitable, near-cause to answer your underlying cry for help, in reconstructing what is clearly a shattered self-esteem.

It’s OK to drop those walls and ask for a hug…..

I mean, we’d just laugh at you, but it’s still OK to ask.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 3:21 AM | Link to this

Ray, I know lol….i’m still coughing from that smokescreen lol.

Ando, I was going to address that last part of kirk’s post, but I figured he wasn’t talikng to me and left it alone lol.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 3:23 AM | Link to this

HBAndo

WOW! Now You’re Really Cooking With Grease!

I love the whole litany of SAT words…that’s fabulous…ghetto fabulous.

It’s like putting a wrapper of pure gold on turd.

All I can say is whatever.. you guys kill me with this stuff….lol!

I’m glad you’re having your fun. That you resort to ridicule and slights and such just tells me that you are feeling me!

You crazy kids knock yourselves out hear!

By ray

July 27, 2008 3:42 AM | Link to this

SalimFan, the danger in a trade is that it might make us better for the moment.

Much as I don’t want to see Smith traded, I’m working off of the idea that he will be. Don’t ask me why. Let’s just say I’m preparing…

At any rate, the idea is to get something in return that makes you better in the long run, not just for a year or maybe 2. I think we need to get somebody that’s locked down contract-wise. Not an expiring contract. Expiring contracts are great, but only if you really know how to make use of the cap space. I’ll go out on a limb and say that for the last 4 years, management has not demonstrated that they know how to use cap space. The only exception would be JJ, and that was a trade as much as anything else. Other than that, somebody point to good use of cap space? Don’t all raise your hands at once.

We could have all the cap space in the world. Who thinks we can sign DWade, Lebron, or any of the other really big time Free Agents that are coming up in 2009 and 2010? Let me tell you what I think cap space means around here: something the GM can help save face with when we let somebody get away, extra money that the owners can pocket away, and a small amount used to sign a guy like Mo Evans. Give me some evidence to the contrary and I’ll gladly recant.

Here’s another perspective: if we can’t feasibly get somebody back for Josh that is locked down for a few years and that helps the team, then we must turn them into assets. Again, we tread on thin ice here. You need a combination of cleverness and luck. The last time I saw that, we got Bibby. Clever of Billy: we had the right number of expiring or throw-away contracts to offer Sacramento for Bibby. Lucky they had a pg already that they were okay with using as Bibby’s replacement. My guess is that Cleveland didn’t have the same number of expiring contracts that we did, or they would’ve gotten Bibby for sure. Other than that, I ask again…what makes a person believe that the cleverness and resolve is there? This would be a chance for Sund to prove himself…if Gearon lets him, that is.

Yet here lies the issue: Bibby’s expiring contract. Oh, and after further research, Ando tells me that Bibby is due not $14.5 mil this coming season, but $15.25 mil. Wow. This much money for a playoff tested veteran who still did not have a more positive effect in the playoffs than did a certain much-maligned 22 year old forward, who wishes to be paid millions less. Uh-huh.

I have long thought that the best trades would not involve Smith by himself. And the most attractive trade bait has to be Bibby, who has over $15 million coming off the books after next season is up…mighty attractive. Mighty attractive indeed.

Again, I struggle to see how we get better by letting Smith go. Better for the long run, that is. The more channels and changes one has to go through to make it work, the eaier it is for something to go wrong. And so if go he must, then trade him for what we can keep…not the illusion of useable cap space. Cap space just doesn’t mean the same thing here as it does in other places.

By ray

July 27, 2008 3:50 AM | Link to this

It’s like putting a wrapper of pure gold on turd.

W…T…F…?! Strange things happening on that farm over there…wonder if Casey lives there, too…

Going along that grain…What you want to bet that fake-a$$ halo he keeps trying to put on is an old toilet seat attached to an upside down plunger…..

By ray

July 27, 2008 3:54 AM | Link to this

I see TEAM USA has managed to start off looking somewhat like the TEAM USA of old. Of course, it was only Canada…but still, it was glad to see a ridiculously lopsided win. Here’s to hoping for continued success. GO USA!!

By Dallas

July 27, 2008 4:05 AM | Link to this

The rumors have some of the more successful teams in the league trying to acquire Josh Smith. Shouldn’t that be a hint that he’s worth the money?

I’ve given the ASG my hard earned money 3 of the last 4 years. I boycotted a year because they drafted Shelden Williams. I’m a loyal fan but I believe in voting with my wallet. If Josh Smith is traded then I would like to know if I can get a refund on next season’s season tickets. I’d like to save the $85 per ticket, the parking, the concessions, and stay home and watch real franchises on League Pass.

By cp

July 27, 2008 4:25 AM | Link to this

justtoadd you are dropping some knowledge. You might want to re post that so they can see it again.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 4:48 AM | Link to this

Ray, I completly agree. Smoove is 22 and keeps improving. Unlike childress, who has averaged 11ppg as a starter and a backup ever since he was drafted. I will be very hard to get fair compensation for him. It will defenetly have to be someone who cand help us for YEARS to come……I just don’t see it. I agree about turning whatever we get for smoove around and trading it for what we really need. Honestly though, I just don’t see the benefit in us not keeping him. I better start entertaining the idea of him leaving like you are.

I wonder what team wants to rent Bibby for a year?

Ray, I do beleive they live in the same place. I’ve been suspicious. I haven’t seen casey in a long while…..dyslexia…..Old Plunger…..you’re killin me lol.

By Ryan

July 27, 2008 4:57 AM | Link to this

Comment on Ryder’s quote:

” Josh Smith is a great athlete, but in order to become a contender you need guys who have a great basketball IQ, something Smith seriously lacks .”

WELL SAID, WELL SAID. GREAT ANALYSIS. COULDN’T AGREE MORE. EVERYTHING JOSH SMITH DOES IS OFF OF PURE ATHLETICISM. HIS BASKETBALL IQ SUCKS. I WOULD TAKE PRINCE OVER JOSH SMITH BECAUSE HE’S A BETTER ” TEAM PLAYER ” AS THE INFAMOUS AND FORMER HAWKS GM BILLY KNIGHT WOULD SAY…..BY THE WAY, I DON’T MEAN TO QUOTE BILLY BECAUSE I WAS IN NO WAY A FAN OF BILLY.

By kirk-n-stein

July 27, 2008 6:08 AM | Link to this

I am wise and all knowing. I am defender of all peoples who are oppressed by the tyrants of this blog site. I am better than they who think themselves wise.

I do not joke, for it is not proper, and it is not about winning basketball games. I am here to teach all the ways of the true Spirit of Atlanta.

We do not need these minorities who are merely athletes. They cannot dribble or shoot. We can make a better team with or without them. Do not ask me how or for specific opinion. You are trying to cause drama.

We do not need to spend more than 50 million dollars a year to win. We will win anyway, for the eastern conference is weak and the true Spirit of Atlanta is all-wise. Do not argue with this, you are trying to cause drama.

You should buy tickets regardless of the state of the team, if you are a true fan. Show yourselves to be true fans by buying season tickets. You must worship the true Spirit of Atlanta. If you are not a true fan, you can only be trying to cause drama.

I do not need to prove myself to you cretins that refuse to follow the holy ways. You are idiots and charlatans. You like to cause drama.

I do not need to call people names. You cannot prove that I have done so. The preceeding paragraph was an aberration and a figment of your imagination. You are trying to cause drama.

I only exist to speak of basketball. And the true ways of the true Spirit of Atlanta. This is all that matters. The rest is B.S. And an attempt at drama.

Do not question me. I have no answers because your questions make no sense and are not relevant. They are out of the blue and you are trying to cause drama.

I admit nothing for I have said nothing, but I stand by that which I have said. If you do not remember what I have said, go back and look it up. Do not question this logic, you are trying to cause drama.

This is all about winning basketball games and exalting the true Spirit of Atlanta. There is no other truth. You hate the Spirit of Atlanta. You cannot convince me otherwise, because you are trying to cause drama.

I will say as I please because I can, and because I am one against the tide of many fools, who do not accept the precepts of the Spirit of Atlanta. Because they only love to cause drama.

By roan st

July 27, 2008 6:33 AM | Link to this

O.K. I think most of us believe that Josh Smith is worth around 11-12 million per from the comments I have read. Give him the same contract Monta Ellis received which was 11 million per season. Fair enough?

Justtoadd, you can’t compare the contracts that young Big men received and translate them to what josh might be worth. Sorry but no team will ever value a tweener like josh the same as they would a guy like dwight howard. BTW, just to be clear I’m all about keeping josh smith in the fold but grossly overpaying a guy can come back to haunt a team. Mark my word Orlando will regret giving rashard lewis 20 million per season.

By Ben

July 27, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this

I don’t even remember what I was supposed to reply to, but until someone proves to me Josh Smith is a good man defender, there isn’t much to say.

And I don’t know how old Doc is, (probably 55?) but the guy spends an inordinate amount of time here.

I will wait till the next blog to spew more knowledge on the world.

By doc

July 27, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

good morning ben. close. will you take me up on the beer when you are old enough, no reason for both of us to end up in jail,

really glad we are on the same side, i havent forgotten have you?

By screaming tony s

July 27, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this

Here goes Sekou again! Wave those Josh Smith pom poms!! Maybe when Smoove and his turnovers go you can leave town with him…..GETOUTATOWN! We haven’t had good Hawks writer since Jess Demberg.

By Ben

July 27, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

doc you come across as a very arrogant and narcissistic individual.

i hope you enjoy your life, that which you have outside of here that is.

By Ken Strickland

July 27, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

KIRKNGA-you stated you believed Gearon wanted to win. Well, that in itself means very little. Virtually everyone wants to win, but is everyone willing to do the things necessary to win. The answer is a resounding NO. It’s like everyone wants to be wealthy, but few are willing to do the things necessary to create that wealth. Yes, I agree with you. Gearon and the SAASG does want to win, but without the necessary sacrifices. Consider the following:

(1)They were unwilling to invest in a HC that could/would properly develop our young players, our bench, or an OFF and style of play that perfectly suits our talent.

(2)They’ve definitely shown their unwillingness to invest in the young talent that’s actually developed over the last 4yrs, in spite of Woodson. No serious attempt to resign either Josh before becoming RFA’s.

(3)They’ve shown little concern for the needs and overall value of the players. They’ve placed retaining a methodical, domineering, one dimensional HC above the possible negative effects it might have on retaining or acquiring key players.

(4)Certain owneres have allowed personal issues and ambitions to dictate their decisions, rather than employing professional, logical and objective reasoning. What do you think divided the group in the 1st place, if not personal issues? Why do you think Gearon refused to allow BK to fire Woodson, then forced BK out while retaining Woodson?

I believe DOC touched on this issue earlier. We might be witnessing an effort on Sunds part to erase, as much as possible, BK’s influence on the makeup on the current team. If we end up with a sign and trade for Smoove, that would leave SJones, ALaw, MWilliams and AHorford as BK’s only remaining draft picks. With Bibby and Zaza’s contracts expiring after this season, that would leave JJ and Speedy as BK’s only remaining FA acquisitions, and their contracts expire in 2yrs. Except for maybe ALaw and AHorford, Sund could completely turn this roster over in 2yrs and claim any success achieved as the result of players he selected.

JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

By JohnGTfan

July 27, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

Most of you people on here are so funny. The majority of people who want to sign Smith NO MATTER WHAT…care nothing for “THE HAWKS”. You want to continue seeing his highlights on Sportscenter. I love the kid…he’s special. But why is it so bad to trade him if it makes…ready for this “Hawks fans”…THE ATLANTA HAWKS BETTER! For years people have done nothing but whine and cry about winning. So if Atlanta trades Smith and say, for example, the pieces we bring over get us to 45 - 50 wins next season…you won’t be happy???? Then you’re NOT HAWKS FANS!!!

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

kirk-n-stein

LOL! That was WAY off the chain!

Kirk would now say “the praise”, and in this case he’d be right.

That post DESERVES praise, as it was funny, but right on target.

Lots of Drama, though. ;-)

By doc

July 27, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

ben illusions, youth is one of them. again read auden above.. … if you should risk it. your choice of course as it is your choice, if it is to want to call out and name all you find offensive here on the blog as well as state your distaste for josh smith and his game. it is your responsibility to do as you see fit and to assume the responsibility of response as well. now as far as name calling it is made of pure projection and projectin is the culprit. also your responsibility. so be it.

again i sincerely mean your points are considered worthy here and i welcome you. if that is arrogant okay. i remind you as above, i too have the right to my own free speech that you may only assume is worthy for you and all that agree with you as well as when and how often. that is my responsibility.

i think ray gets the notion of how tricky it is to make a transplant work. last year folks queried if the makeover in boston with two all star additions would work for them? they figured it out and i hope we do as well,i just dont think what we will get in return will or can measure up to what we will give away in the long run. this could look like the make over in what about ‘99 when they brought in a slew of folks that couldnt get more than 32 or so wins no matter what was spent because they were truly journeymen with good numbers on bad teams or didnt fit on good teams. isnt that the team we blew up because it cost so much? go round in circles?

john gt i really enjoyed being there for the wins in the phillips against the celts, dont worry about me anyway not being happy. thought we had the makings of a really good team if we brought in say an evans and a brown to add to what we would have if we did what was the major priority that almost EVERYONE agreed on which was to sign chills and smith. no one knows at this point which way it will go. those with total disregard and dislike of smith and admit it like the move, those that dislike fros or shoe collections love the moves. see a trend here? i have never said i didnt like a player or an individual and or prefer to look and the big picture.

nice summation ken, points that are relevant and hold some truth if not total truth if that an ever be found. probably somewhere in between where we all fit.

as for me i say thanks all for your contributions. it has been fun here as the drama of the summer of ‘08 evolves . whatever we all get to sit back and watch the caldron burn as the alchemist sund does his work …. gold or lead?

By justtoadd

July 27, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

“JohnGtfan” You are an example of what we are talking about. If the Hawks moved Smith and became a better team. I don’t think anyone would be upset. What we are saying is that they don’t respect their own players. Do you think Detroit is willing to trade Prince for Smith because Prince is a better player? No, most teams in this league think that Smith will be a better player in another system. One that might actually leave him in the post and actually take advantage of his skill set. The Hawks win over 50% of their games when they hit a 100pts. Woodson is the only coach who slows down the ball with a team built for running. Joe Johnson and Al Horford don’t seem to agree with you either. Funny, I would respect their opinion more than yours.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

doc

Or worse still, gold plating, good for a short period but tarnished, oh, so quickly.

By Nate ArchiBALL

July 27, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

Random thoughts from a Hawks fan

Randolph Morris —- WHY? A back up to a back up center at best. A foul a minute guy. Didn’t he foul out in the first half of a Hawks vs Knicks game?

Mario West — Good defensive player but lack of offensive skills make him a liability when on court. As someone earlier stated, ” he’s a foul a minute”. This is why Woody can’t afford to play him in key situations. Deaana Nolan of the Detroit Shock (via UGA) has a better NBA offensive game.

ZaZa Pachulia - a semi head butt does not a season make. He needs to really step up his game this year. Especially if you trade John Smith to Detroit.

Famous last words - If you don’t like our offer then go find a better one……Guess what? He did.

Which GM would you trust more in evaluating talent, Joe Dumars or Rick Sund? The answer should make you think twice about trading Josh Smith.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Nate ArchiBALL

Which GM would you trust more in evaluating talent, Joe Dumars or Rick Sund? The answer should make you think twice about trading Josh Smith.

Precisely!

By doc

July 27, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

after much deliberation to trade josh smith would be like the braves getting rid of mccann not tex. to get rid of jj is like having tex in the fold and sending him elsewhere seeing he wasnt the leader necessary to take you to a winning season nor far in the playoffs.

seeing the headlines yesterday about mccann shouts out the accomplishments by the young guys to put them in a league of few among their HISTORICAL peers. even if you dont like the way mccaan runs, throws to fist base or maybe even covers home on throws from the outfield you have to like his total game and that he is a gamer. smith is too.

if some have gone to the braves blog they can see and read the incredulous negative ideas folks have about a guy who could be the gold standard for his era. the same will be said and has been said for josh smith.

By U AINT GETTIN BYNUM

July 27, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

SMITH FOR BYNUM??? KEEP DREAMIN. YOU’D BE LUCKY TO GET ODOM FROM SMITH. BYNUM … HE’S UNTOUCHABLE!!! YALL MUST SMOKE SOME GOOD WEED DOWN THERE IN THE DIRTY SOUTH!!!

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Rumor: Josh Smith for J.Howard and B.Bass. Thoughts?

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

Rumor: Josh Smith for J.Howard and B.Bass. Thoughts? Id rather have Diop instead of Bass.

By doug

July 27, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

Didn’t Joe Dumars evaluate the talent of Darko Milic worthy of a N0.2 draft pick, placing his talent ahead of: Carmello Anthony, Chris Bosh, Dewayne Wade and Chris Kaman?

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

before we get josh howard tell me he has been rehab and has the wed under control or we well take on a really great athlete with a habit problem. not the same but reminds me of the smith for ryder trade. yuch! probably at least howard shows up.

if prince or howard come then a reliable starter big needs to be out there ready to sign because and this is good probably because horford is now a power forward and becomes a go to guy underneath.

By doc

July 27, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

terrell didnt we just trade the bass equivalent to sacramento? both obtained in 2005 draft one 5th in first other 3rd in second. what would be the difference? draft express here we come. aint the internet fun?

By roan st

July 27, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Doc, I concur with your concerns about howard and his admitted marijuana use. What is even more troubling is his blowing off the issue as no big deal, everbody does it. What a nightmare it would be to trade off a home grown UNIQUE talent such as smith for a small forward who hits the bong. Long term drug use will eventually undermine howard’s career.

If they decide to trade smith they must get back either a talented point guard or a paint prescence like biedrens or oakfor. I think small forwards in the NBA grow on trees. So if we trade a unique talent like smith then we must get back something special in return. I will be done with the hawks if they trade smith for howard. But Smith for Biedrens would be a good move for a team in desperate need of more muscle in the paint. I could live with that deal.

By clint

July 27, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

Stephen a smith just on espnews saying there is no way smoove signs a long term deal with the hawks. He claims there will either be a sign & trade or smoove will take the 1 yr qualifying offer and be unrestricted next year.

He claims smith is disgruntled about misinformation concerning himself and woody’s relationship and the lack of a serious offer when monta ellis gets what he got.

but hey, iggi, okafor, deng, and gordon are yet to sign either mr. smith so don’t get your panties in a wad

By doc

July 27, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

roan well put, his lack of concern on the subject shows little insight. that is what was a bigger concern. still illegal.

biedrens yes, oden maybe but could begin to take the place of smith, less than that including prince needs to bring a big with it that can actually play. a quality anything that would allow horford to move to his natural position for smith would be a true win,win, win for the owners, players and fans.

hopefully and probably bynum isnt on the screen as he comes unsigned so the merry go round would continue.

maybe bass is the stuff of maxiel instead of shels tough similar undersized power forwards where maxiel has shown he can tough it out down under.

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

TB, I think it’s a great deal…….for the Mavs. First, Josh Howard and Marvin play the same position. So, you’re likely front line would be Marvin, Bass and Horford, woefully undersized, and still with the limitations and physical pounding that has Horford playing center instead of his optimal position, PF.

Second, if you take age into account (and based on the statistics from last year, you really don’t even need to do that), Howard isn’t an upgrade over Marvin (or won’t be in the coming years).

Howard is 27, and Marvin is 22. Howard was a rookie at 22. Compare his numbers, then, to Marvin’s, last year, when he was 21. Howard averaged 8.6 points, 5.5 boards, a dime, a steal, and shot 43% from the floor, and 30% from behind the arc.

Marvin, on the other hand, as a 21 year-old, last year, averaged 15 points, 5.7 boards, 1.7 dimes and a steal, shooting 46% from the field and 82% from the line. Howard’s numbers, last year, saw him posting 20 points, 7 boards, 2 dimes, .8 steals, shooting 45% and 81%. His 3-point % was pedestrian 32%.

The point here is that Marvin’s age, and annual improvement suggest that he’s very capable of matching Howard’s production in the next year, without having to pay him the $10 million that Howard makes.

And if you’ve got Howard’s production, and primary position, small forward, covered by Marvin, then why pay Howard what it would cost, roughly, to keep Smith. There’s just no real logic to giving a player who’s role is already covered on this roster, the money that would keep Smith here.

Bass is a solid player, but he’s one of a couple dozen players in the league that are production role players at the four (guys like Haslem and Millsap), all of whom are better than the guy Billy wasted our fifth pick on on two years ago, Shelden.

I just don’t see a player that is likely to be acquirable, for Smith, that would make sense to give him up for.

Smith has flaws. But he does things that no other players in the league can do, because of his freakish athleticism. And, for the millionth time, he’s only 22, and hardly a finished product.

And I’ve yet to see anyone, from the Hawks’ organization, the fans, the media, or some supposed insider, that indicates that Smith expects, or has demanded, a max contract. The market for his peers has been set in the $11-13 million range. The folks who complain about his less than perfect “man” defense fail to acknowledge the huge off set that occurs due to his rare ability to close on his man, from behind, and block his shot.

They need to sign Smith, and prove to the fans that they have both money, a commitment to success, and a freakin’ clue.

And, as I’ve been saying for months, they need to find a big how can defend the five, but is most dangerous, in the half court offense, facing the basket and consistently knocking down 20 footers. Since we’re clearly not going to spend the kind of cash necessary to get a top-tier big that fits that description, how about Kristic, in New Jersey?

I still think the perfect, mutually beneficial and cap-realistic deal is Marvin and Zaza for Anthony Parker and Bargnani. They get a legitimate, and emerging SF, who will complement Bosh and O’Neal, and a 4-5 in Zaza, who can step in and spot start if either guy gets hurt, as well as backing up both when they’re healthy.

We get a much needed outside shooting threat, on our front line, to resolve the fact that neither Josh nor Horford are consistent out there, and those two can mitigate Bargnani’s weak rebounding. And Bargnani can defend the five, allowing Horford to optimize his production by playing his natural position at the 4.

In my mind, that truly a win-win deal.

Kirk, your continued smugness, while being soundly outmatched in this skirmish (sorry, but you lack the essential tools to qualify this as a war) of words, reminds me of a scene from a Monty Python movie. You would be the knight who has all of his limbs severed, one after the other, who continues to demand that his vanquisher engage him further. Like that knight you’ve nothing left but your head and the inexplicable delusion that your the superior swordsman and the inevitable victor. Fortunately, I believe in mercy (well, and my Mom always told me it was mean to pick on kids who couldn’t defend themselves, even when they continued to beg for repeated, unwinnable confrontations).

While there’s clear truth that just because a majority opinion exists, that doesn’t mean they represent the truth. Usually, if there’s validation for both the opinions, and the overwhelming sense of absolute intellectual superiority, of someone like yourself (or, to be specific, you), then, on a blog this well populated, and with a vast spectrum of strongly opposing opinions on just about everything, one would expect to find at least one other participant who supports your stances and self-concept. Since I haven’t noticed any such Tonto, to your God-complexed Lone Ranger, might I suggest a considerate and honest reappraisal of one’s sense of self?

Or maybe just a good therapist, to work out whatever issues you had/have with a Daddy for whom your best was never good enough for.

Maybe once he or she convinces you that “it’s not your fault”, and/or “he can’t hurt you anymore, so you can let it go”, you’ll stop annoying the bejesus out of the rest of us…………

By j

July 27, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Hello, Disregarding what Screaming A. Smith said, I believe that it is still possible to get Smoove back in the fold long term. Cash talks and I honestly believe that ASG is cognizant of the fallout if Smith is not reupped. Short of getting a superstar back, there is no way the fanbase will be appeased if there is a sign and trade. As I posted prior, Artest would be someone who I could live with in a sign and trade. Not to mention his salary is very ASG friendly (8.4 Million). If not, I am afraid we might lose this franchise. J

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

How do we know for sure that PF is Horford’s “NATURAL POSITION”? I think he’d be fine at center, with a bruiser type PF.

By Nate ArchiBALL

July 27, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Good response Doug. But you didn’t answer the question - Dumars or Sund? I do understand what you’re saying. I submit that All GM’s miss on draft picks and FA’s, some more than others. Just think about our misses: Billy Knight had three major misses - Shelden, Marvin and Speedy. I don’t have enough time or space to mention the misses of the previous GM’s Babcock and Kasten: Konkak, Blair Rasmussen, Rumeal Robinson, Dion Glover, JR Rider, Danny Manning, Ken “the Snake” Norman, Roy Marble, Dallas Comegys….. just to name a few.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

kirk-n-stein (or whoever)

That was funny. I had to laugh.

Though as a minority I didn’t find the part mentioning minorities to be funny in the least bit.

I’m honored that I have engendered such noteworthy satire and caricature.

I’m sure the game being played here has been entertaining for some.

Unfortunately it has reached the extreme now veering off into the personal and libelous as people have decided to charge me with being a “liar.”

That I have never told a lie on this blog is now beside the point.

The bullying games being played by some that I thought were all in good fun. It appears I was wrong. There has been an escalation of rhetoric,only tangentially related to basketball and the Atlanta Hawks.

At the very least, it’s a waste of time, and indulgent of the whims of a few who have an agenda other than to discuss the topic of this blog.

I am here, and will remain here giving my take about the affairs of my team the Atlanta Hawks. But I’m not going to follow certain people down a path where we’re just go at each other every day every blog over nonsensical matters.

You see, as a minority, this is the sort of thing that happens in real life and it usually ends ugly and isn’t productive.

So kirk-n-stein, very funny again.

…and as always

Thanks For Playing!!

By JohnGTfan

July 27, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

For the record…noone has ever seen a post from me using dislike of Josh Smith. As I said, he’s a tremendous talent. But I simply do not believe he will stay here…and certainly not because he “shouldn’t”..but because I think he has no respect for the owners. I certainly agree they have done him wrong. I would love to see him stay…but my thing is…why let him stay for one year and walk? Just b/c he is from ATL does not mean he will stay here. I think he would have if the ASG locked him up earlier. But now, right or wrong, he feels shafted by the team he’s loved his entire life. So yeah, if you can make the team better by trading him, then do it. Fans can say all they want…”I won’t attend another Hawks game”. At least 90% of them are lying. If Atlanta ends up a top 3 or 4 team in the East, the place will sell out. Of course it’s a shame that Smith may not be here next season…and I certainly do not blame him…but no reason sulking about it. Do what you can to make the team better and support the players.

By mykhalc

July 27, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

terrell, you are right, we don’t know. and after HORFORD’s last Q&A with Sekou, i think he LIKES and is VERY comfortable at the 5. i don’t get the sense that there is this yearnin’ on his part to play the 4. now maybe that’s ‘cause he wants JOSH back. but regardless, ‘shoulda-been’ ROY, playin’ outta position accordin’ to some, will ONLY be that much better at his outta position this upcomin’ season!!! and i say that with confidence REGARDLESS of who the 4 is. HORFORD can just flat out ball…PERIOD!!!

sign SMOOVE or give me BIEDRINS, AMARE, or OUTLAW!!! that’s the list IMHO!!! one is a dream so that leaves, BIEDRINS or OUTLAW!!! it’s a short list, and should be!!! BASG…BRAINLESS…CLUELESS…USELESS!!! just like the head coach!!!

By DAP01

July 27, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this

What are the rumored sign and trades for Josh? Is Portland mentioned?

By gumpspeed

July 27, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

You Hawks fans are crazy if you think the Suns will trade Amare!!!! LMAO BIGTIME!! Get of the crack. Your team dosen’t think that highly of him, why would the Suns? Hey, we will give you Boris back for Smith Hawks suck…They will be in pergatory forever! Lol JJ left PHX to go to bball hell!

By j

July 27, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

Hello, Gumpspeed, thanx for another douchey, illogical response. “bball hell”, I thought that was having a team with an aggregate age of 37. Now that D’Antoni has left for a city without fair weather, bandwagon fans, what do you think is going to happen next year. Once that ” new Shaq” scent wears off, you will be left with a rapidly aging team. I know Amare is young, but, how long do you think those microfractured knees will hold up? Also, most if not all, are quite happy with the Johnson trade. Darn shame you were stuck with our 15th pick and not the 4th selection of last year’s draft. Diaw has worked out real well since he has been paid hasn’t he? J

By mykhalc

July 27, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

oh yeah, the ELLIS contract should make it easy for the stupid a$$ BASG!!! how much more identical could these players be in regards to drafted position, production last yr from their indivdual playin’ positions, and what they mean to the future of their franchises!!??!! it’s as simple as a COPY-N-PASTE!!!! EASY…SIMPLE…PERIOD!!!

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Myc, I know you watched the all-star festivities. So I’m expecting that you’ll recall that Barkley couldn’t stop talking about how he thought Horford will be one of the best PF’s in the league for the next decade. At no point did he even waste his breathe on Horford as a center. Also, since I know how closely you follow the team, I’m a bit surprised that you’re ignoring how many times opposing centers (and we’re talking journeymen here, like Mickey Moore and Kendrick Perkins) put up career game performances against the Hawks.

It’s a testament to Horford’s team-first commitment, and his talent and competitiveness, that he played as well as he did, as an undersized center. But he can be a STAR as a PF.

Last year was no different than the year before, from the standpoint that opposing teams attacked the rim fearlessly, and with great respect.

The question of can Horford play center is similar to the question of can we live without Childress. In both the answer is yes. But in both, our team is less than it could or should be, if we would just use some basic logic in creating a balanced roster.

There’s no, one, right way to balance this roster. Our needs change dependent on who stays and who goes. I’ve said this many times, but , if you keep Smith and Horford, you need a complimentary big who can shoot from deep (like Okur, Krystic, Bargnani-and why I liked Love and Koufos in this past draft). With respect to that belief, centers with very limited offensive skills are not optimal as compliments to Smith and Horford, as the lack of any type of outside shooting threat will lead every team to pack in the paint, over play JJ, and leave us with a very limited range of half-court scoring options.

Now, if you do do screw up, and lose Smith, and you get a Howard in return, now a more traditional center, who spends his time within 5-7 feet of the basket, you’ve set up a different type of balance. Kwame Brown, or a Diop (who would be the guy you would want thrown in with Howard, if you were to move Josh in a sign-and-trade to Dallas) are both examples of a more classic center.

I hear someone mention Odom. I don’t like that at all. And I really like Odom. But does a franchise with such a poor reputation around the league, amongst players and agents, really want Odom and Bibby entering next summer unrestricted? And I heard JJ has an opt out. If that’s true, we could literally be looking at all 3 being unrestricted next summer. If the situation with the ASG is as bad, financially and functionally, as many of us fear, I don’t think it’s outlandish to imagine a situation where all 3 chose to walk away, without compensation.

Does anyone here really want to enter next summer with that scenario in play?

Losing Smith, unless it brings a legitimate center (Bynum or Biedrens-whose limited range, along side Horford, is a little disconcerting as well), is a straight mistake. Especially if he’d be willing to take anything under $12 million, annually.

By Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory

July 27, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Ok, on tha 7th u think I’m dead, yet I’m really alive

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

LOL @ Ando. Your evaluation of Pot Head vs. Marvin is spot on. Drafting Marvin was probably the wrong move at the time. But by no means is Marvin a bust in any way. Considering the fact that we just lost one Small Forward, I’m very glad we have Marvin at this point (Who BTW is younger than Chills and produces more. NTM he keeps constantly improving, while Childress has kept the same average for all four years regardless of being in a starter or backup role….Childress may have reached his ceiling.) When Marvin matures into a better scorer/defender, I don’t think we will be hearing CP3 at the end of every Marvin conversation anymore……BTW I liked that draft because Salim is a BEAST and wasn’t given a fair shot.

I wonder why Dallas is trying so hard to shop Josh Howhigh around?? Hmmmmm???

Kirk, Please read what Ken Strickland posted at 9:74 AM. I was going to respond to your comments abour Gearon but Ken took the words right out of my mouth.

I have an Idea. This IS a contract year for Zaza right. Also his name is around the leauge because of the playoffs. Why not use the attraction of his expiring contract to sign someone with a Legit faceup game???

OK, So we sign Smoove and Kwame. Then we trade Zaza for Channing Frye in portland. Frye gets no burn and is buried up in PO because of the depth at the frontcourt positions in Portland, especially with Oden healthy again. He has a sweet stroke with range on it…besides Zaza was more of a PF anyway. So now Kwame can come in and be the Garbage man, and Frye can draw his defender away from the basket with his face up game.

This also takes pressure off of Smoove and Horford to knock down peremeter shots when the situation presents itself. They can focus on doing what the do best….attacking the rim and getting oppoising big men in foul trouble.

Portland would go for this deal because Zaza comes off the books after this season. We all know they need as much cap space as possible in order to sign all those studs in the upcoming years (As evidenced by the ongiong Darius Miles Contreversy). I’m pretty sure their salaries are around the same neighborhood also. It’s a win win situation im my opinion.

Thoughts????

By richbrave

July 27, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

SIGN JOSH SMITH.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

I’ll be the first to say Josh Howard is a step down from Josh Smith, but come on, why all the hate on weed? Weed is from the earth man… God put it here for you and me. Being a pothead doesn’t necessarily make you a bad player.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Doug

Didn’t Joe Dumars evaluate the talent of Darko Milic worthy of a N0.2 draft pick, placing his talent ahead of: Carmello Anthony, Chris Bosh, Dewayne Wade and Chris Kaman?

Yes he did, but I don’t think you want to go there. A pick by pick comparison of Dumars Vs. Sund would be pretty ugly.

Dumars was working from a position of strength when he drafted Darko, coming off a season where the Pistons were in the Conference Finals, so he could afford to take a chance not usually afforded someone drafting 2nd.

And, like Marvin, Darko’s not terrible, just not what anyone would hope for from that draft position. And, unlike some drafts, in that particular year the 3,4, and 5 picks were all stellar, making Darko look that much worse.

Kinda like Marvin.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Or How about Zaza and Solomon for Frye???

By harry the hawk

July 27, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

DEAR SEKOU SMITH,

Sekou when the hel/ are you going to tell us who the ” block buster sign and trades” are??!! Do your job and get the inside info like your supposed to!!! Then all this bickering will stop on this blog you started!!! Now get to it sekou!! Seriously everybody is waiting to find out names and scenarios, its driving us crazy!!! Hurry the he// up!!! Thanks, P.s. Sorry for being rude but I’m tired of waiting!!

By clint

July 27, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Does anyone think Marvin should be extended this summer or are we going to do the same thing with him next year. I know we need to take of smoove first, but this has been terrible for us fans and childress has made the organization look like fools

By cp

July 27, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

I dont like the Howard deal at all. If you trade Josh Smith you have to get a big in return. The problem with trading Josh is that we will end up on the short end of the trade. Portland has a lot of pieces we could use and Nate would get the best out of Josh.

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

Why would Portlant want Zaza and Solo? They’d be buried even further down the bench than Frye is.

By mykhalc

July 27, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

ANDO, nothin’ but respect as always bro even tho we differ on what’s best or acceptable regardin’ where HORFORD should play. i hear ya and can’t dispute any of what you say. i guess i just don’t have the vision to see that AL could be soooo much more at the 4 as opposed to the 5. i just think he will be an all-star regardless.

i will whole-heartedly agree with you on ODUM. good player but would not want to see him in a HAWKS uni instead of SMOOVE.

JOSH HOWARD would have to be included with more bodies. i’d take HOWARD for MARVIN, no doubt, hands-down!!!

the HAWKS summer is like waitin’ on NOV 4…ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

B/C unlike frye, Zaza and Solomon both come off the books after this season b/c they are in the final years of their contracts…..and their cheap

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this

I heard we are about to sign Randolph Morris.

By terrell barron

July 27, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

I heard we are about to sign Randolph Morris. And Clint, we’ll just have to see if he improves this season.

By gsw

July 27, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

This will go down as a 3 way trade.

The warriors are offering up a couple of #1’s from last year, Al Harrington and a future #1 to the T’Wolves.

The Wolves will trade 2 #1’s and Mcants.

The Hawks trade Smith to the Golden State Warriors.

By Dee

July 27, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

mo evans was great in orlando. couldnt understand why otis let him go but he can but up good numbers some times in offense and excels greatly in defense so good luck hawks.

By Dee

July 27, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

mo evans was great in orlando. couldnt understand why otis let him go but he can but up good numbers some times in offense and excels greatly in defense so good luck hawks.

By harry the hawk

July 27, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

DEAR SEKOU SMITH,

Sekou when the hel/ are you going to tell us who the ” block buster sign and trades” are??!! Do your job and get the inside info like your supposed to!!! Then all this bickering will stop on this blog you started!!! Now get to it sekou!! Seriously everybody is waiting to find out names and scenarios, its driving us crazy!!! Hurry the he// up!!! Thanks, P.s. Sorry for being rude but I’m tired of waiting!!

By harry the hawk

July 27, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

DEAR SEKOU SMITH,

Sekou when the hel/ are you going to tell us who the ” block buster sign and trades” are??!! Do your job and get the inside info like your supposed to!!! Then all this bickering will stop on this blog you started!!! Now get to it sekou!! Seriously everybody is waiting to find out names and scenarios, its driving us crazy!!! Hurry the he// up!!! Thanks, P.s. Sorry for being rude but I’m tired of waiting!!

By boomshakalaka

July 27, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

If the Hawks re-sign Mike Woodson, I’m done!

Oh wait…

By HHoops

July 27, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

Here’s the trade I like if we have to trade J Smooth

Trade J. Smooth, Bibby, Salim, and Zaza to GS for Biedrins & Ellis. GS knows that they may lose Biedrins to Europe if they don’t do something with him quick!

GS gets a starting 3-4 in Smooth that would light up the West Coast, a point guard with an expiring contract (Bibby) and a guard (Salim) that can score and play some point in their “getty up” system that Nellie likes. They also get a 5 (Zaza) with an expiring contract that can back up Turif.

The Hawks get a starting 2 in Ellis & a starting 5 in Biedrins.

Now we have money to go get K. Brown & R. Morris to back up Biedrins. We would need to sign another back up point guard.

Look @ this Hawks lineup:

1-Acie/Speedy/PG?

2-Ellis/Evans

3-JJ/Marvin

4-Horford/Solomon

5-Biedrins/Brown/Morris

I wish it were this easy to get GS to agree to this trade. The Hawks would be a team that could compete with anyone and they would sell out Phillips every night!!!

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Clint

Assuming Smith’s return, assuming some degree of Horford’s improvement, Marvin is either 4th or 5th option on offense. And he hasn’t shown that he can play much defense yet, though I thought he was better near the end of the year. He doesn’t shoot 3’s, though he plays a position where you usually look for 3’s. And he rebounds less than you’d think a 6’ 9” athletic body would rebound.

That said, I still think he’s of a lot of upside. He’s still very young.

I’d extend him for a pay cut, but he’s not gonna do that.

No, I’m teasing. But seriously if he’ll extend based on comparable players and their stats, then maybe. My guess is that his agent would advise him to go play his a$$ off and then talk.

He may have more value as a trading piece, particularly at his age.

And I like Marvin. I was one of the drinkers of the Marvin kool-aid at that draft, swayed by personal reasons. I always thought he’d at least be an A. Jamison type player. It’s disappointing to me that he’s not there yet. And I thought he would develop a 3 pointer by now. And that, like Jamison, he’d be a double digit rebounder, and make his teammates better. Hopefully all that is in his future.

By Ben

July 27, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

HHoops that has to be the worst trade I’ve ever seen.

Wow, i can not explain how incredibly bad that proposal is

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

Exactly…..

By walter

July 27, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

I like Josh Smith, Just like I liked Josh Childress, But Childress altho a good player, was not worth what he was asking, neither is smith, childress brought energy, but he could not shoot, I thought he would bring more being the pac-10 player of the year and sixth pick of the draft, everyone blames woody for not developing players, but it was knight who kept draft the same players, childress and smith the same type of players, marvin another small forward, shelden I don’t know what he was but he was only 6’9. And as much as I liked childress and smith the most games they ever won was 37. if smith is such a star why is he not on the olypic team or even the select team, he is not worth what he is asking and if we can get better by trading him let him go. what would you think of playing in your home town? no college, and making 10 mill a year if he cannot play for that I hope they trade him to canada. God bless

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

SalimFan

Nice link (once again).

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this

HHoops, the Hawks do not own Salim anymore. He’s an unrestricted free agent sheesh.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

Ben

Maybe if you’re gonna call Hhoops trade proposal the worst ever, you should make the effort to find the words to tell him why. Otherwise, why even comment?

Way too easy to just say “hey Dude, that sucks.”

And I have no agenda regarding that proposal other than to think it fall in MannyT’s “magic beans” category.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

Ben, the reason why you can’t explain how bad that trade proposal is is because it’s not actually that bad. We would be a little undersized with that lineup but at least it would be loaded with talent. But I don’t think Golden State would give up possibly their two best (or at least most sought-after) players for Josh plus expiring deals. Plus I don’t think we have rights to trade Salim anyway, since he’s an unrestricted free agent.

By gumpspeed

July 27, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Hey J,

Lol! I will take Boris Diaw and Robin Lopez over a player who would rather LEAD A LOSER than be a cog for a championship team. JJ is all about JJ. Look at me I can score on a team that won 37 games!! Guess what Hawks fans….Miami Chicago Indy and NY will all be better than you guys!! You will be drafting number 6 at the least next year. Congrats on JJ!! He is a loser!! Congrats on another 9 year playoff absence!

By Ben

July 27, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Sautee are you serious?

Smoove, Bibby, Salim (LOL hes not even on our team—90 % of Hawks “fans” still think he’s on our team and that Solo needs to be signed), and ZaZa for Biedrins + Ellis?

Contractually, the deal doesn’t come close to lining up. Bibby makes 3 mill more than Monta does this year, Smoove makes more than Biedrins will this year if S&T, then you throw in our key backup big.

Wow.

Why would we give up Bibby in this trade? This makes no sense at all.

To post such a preposterous trade and actually think it’s good is something else.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

KenStrickland In regards to your 9:47am post:

*1. *I agree I’ve said many times that I am not a Woodie fan. I’ve given the same observations as you when it comes to the bench and the failure to develop young players which I would have fired him for. But he’s a Larry Brown wantabe and we all know Brown’s disdain for most young players.

As to offensive and defensive schemes, the results have not been optimal, in my opinion. But a part that goes back to failure to develop players.

Part is also due to BK’s vision that called for drafting forwards. And part of it rests on the fact that the Hawks are poor shooters. Not all, but most. If you don’t shoot well, it really doesn’t matter what scheme you deploy.

Defensive schemes are important. But defense and rebounding are as much about hustle and desire as they are about schemes.

2. This point I do not see it the same way. I like Childress and Smith both, but just not to the degree that others like them. As Gearon stated, “If you give out bad contracts, you can’t compete.”

In order to resign someone, both sides must agree on price. They didn’t. Some blame ASG, I say both parties are responsible.

It is obvious that they don’t believe it was in their best interest to pay what the players wanted to be paid. It happens.

Lots of people are upset by this and I can understand. I see fair contract offers were finally made available and neither play so far has signed. Can one say that they have these offers have come late…YES! But come they did.

I’ve called for them to give Smith his $12 million, that’s too much in my opinion, but that appears to be what similar players are getting so I say sign him.

3. I agree with you again, but only to a point. I allow that the Hawks brass may honestly evaluate players differently than me, or you, or anyone else.

I can believe they said to themselves, “you know what, this is a 37-win team and we’re not so sure that these guys are cornerstone players worth what they want us to pay them”.

I want to see what happens with Marvin,Horford, and Acie before I go as far as you and others go in condemning them for how they sign players.

4 I will not agree here. I don’t have the kind of access that will me to say something like that. From the outside looking in I don’t believe one can say with certainty what people’s personal ambitions and issues are. Without observing the people going through their decision making process, I will not go as far as to say I know what is right or wrong with it.

I will only comment on the outcomes of those decisions, but I will not comment on inner workings because I don’t have that type of access.

Could Sund, be doing what BK did with the team he inherited from Babcock? Yes this is totally a rational argument. I’m not going to make it yet because those far, it still looks like the same team minus Childress and Salim.

To me, the next two offseasons will be more compelling than this offseason. Hard decisions must be made. Childress made one for them, but others are on the way.

I am quite aware of the indictments that people make against ASG. I’m not going to champion them . Why?Because the team only won 37 games!.That’s the bottom line for me.I have acknowledged the poor management of the franchise, especially here in Atlanta. But I’m going to look at the won-loss record, and with only 37 wins, no one save maybe Horford and JJ, is deserving of alot of praise in my opinion.

That doesn’t mean I don’t recognize the contributions of the other players. If this team had won 45-50 games last year, then yes I would be screaming about Smith and Childress. But I’m not going to for 37 wins.

I don’t care if some players got their feelings hurt, or that the Hawks value a player less than I do, I will judge ASG, from Gearon to the coach and players, by the end result of the product they put on the floor.

I believe Sund deserves a chance, at least an entire season, not just a few months of the offseason, before I make any conclusions about him.So far I think he has played this correctly. Others don’t, thats ok with me.

I will wait and see if this team moves beyond 37 wins. My expectations is for a winning season first, then the playoffs.

We are stuck with the owners we have, and Woodie is the coach…at least for now.I say good for Sund giving a 2-year extension and not a 4-5 year, that tells me something.

I will judge this offseason at the end of the upcoming season. Let me see how everything turns out and I will have no problem looking at the season then saying ASG f’d up, or hopefully, did a good job.I will not judge it now.

But the Atlanta Hawks are my team. Regardless of what happens I will remain a fan. I’m not going to stop being a fan if it turns out to be a bad season, I’m not going to stop being a fan just because of what people say on this and other blogs.

I feel mildly encouraged, understanding who the owners are and who the coach is at this time and that it’s not going to change. For me it’s a glass half-full.

GO HAWKS!!!

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

Sautee, Thanks lol. I aim to please.

By doc

July 27, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

najeh as a pot head are you a good player or a bad player. heh heh careful.

By roan st

July 27, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

It has just been reported that Biedrens has agreed to a 63 million dollar deal with GS. Both he and Ellis signed contracts for 6 years which means each will earn around 11 million per season. So in my opinion the market has been set for the group of upper tier restricted free agents so smith should be offered either a 5yr 55 million or 6yr 66 million dollar contract. Let him choose which duration he would like because he might like the shorter deal so he could become unrestricted at 27 years old. If the ASG offer smith a similar deal to what ellis and Biedrens received than it will be on him to get this done. I’m all about keeping Josh Smith but if he ends up being the unreasonable party then I will unfortunately have to side with Sund and the Hawks on this one. But at this point who knows?

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

It’s hard to fathom that anyone could feel “mildly encouraged, understanding who the owners are and who the coach is”. Based on the track record of decision making, of both, I’m at a lost for identifying sources of optimism. And being a fan of the Hawks, and holding the ASG in contempt, are not incongruous. But with the seemingly obvious concerns, about financial commitment, which would be required to improve this team sufficiently to return to the playoffs, and no history for inspiring and surprising roster moves, I don’t know where to look, in seeking a realistic roster move, that will make this season’s team, at least on paper, project to be an improvement on lasts.

Look, there’s no harm in hoping for the best. But we’re now seriously wondering if we’re going to let a unique and exciting young star (at least realistically star potential) walk, over what most folks believe is a reasonable contract range. And if they’re too cheap or broke to pay this kid market, and replacing the things that make him special is virtually impossible, then it breeds a justifiable pessimism for all but the most devoted fans.

Pointing out the myriad, and increasingly perpetual bad choices, of this franchise, is not “hating”. It’s simply tallying the ever-growing list of failures and PR blunders that define the ASG, both locally and nationally.

Support them, and love them, all you want. But don’t disengenuously perpetuate mock indignation to the long-suffering fans, who’ve contributed to this blog, and followed this team year round, when they come to a very reasonable conclusion that the ASG has damaged their team, and continued to break their hearts.

Making Josh Smith happy, with a fair contract, salvages the near-term potential of next years’ team, and it goes a long way to restoring the faith of a very beaten down fan base. And, unless Smith were to be traded for an amazing and compelling talent, common sense dictates that Bibby is gone within 12 months, and Joe Johnson is already generating a mental list of teams he can move on to, who will provide him a realistic chance to compete for championships.

None of these players are going to martyr themselves for the ASG. And, based on the nature of things, right now, that’s what any of these guys would be doing by staying with a team that either can’t, or won’t, make the financial commitment to compete for championships.

The objective “fact” is that this team, as it stands right now, is not as good as last years mediocre squad, with Childress gone, a journeyman added, and a range of fringe, borderline players vying for about 40% of the roster.

We have no choice but to wait and see. But there are plenty of factors, most of them either confusing or frustrating, that point towards likely disappointment.

And we can’t fire the ASG. So short of ranting here, and refusing to fund their operations, there’s not much left to do.

By Ken Strickland

July 27, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

KIRK-losing Chills isn’t what makes the SAASG look bad, but rather how they lost him. Sund and the rest of those fools consistently stated publically that they intended to keep our corp of players in tact. Then they sat back, did nothing, and allowed Chills to be taken away. Common sense should tell anyone if you are committed to retaining your core RFA’s, you don’t wait for the market to come after them 1st. That’s why we have what is called contract extensions, like the Bucks did with their C ABogut.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

kirknga

Nice, even handed, balanced (you Libra, you) post. Kinda missed the lack of drama, though. ;-)

Let me ask about this:

That doesn’t mean I don’t recognize the contributions of the other players. If this team had won 45-50 games last year, then yes I would be screaming about Smith and Childress. But I’m not going to for 37 wins.

MannyT has his WUF: Woody Undervaluation Factor. Are you taking into account that Woodson may have caused this team to lose 4-6 games they should have won?

In that case, they would be at 41-43 wins. In which case our evaluations (mine and yours) of Chills and Smith would be fairly close. Or at least much closer. And maybe you wouldn’t quite be sceaming, but you’d see clearly why others were.

I guess I’m saying that we underperformed last year to the tune of 4-6 games, at least. Which may help you understand somone with a greater disappointment in the ASG than you have.

I do wish that I could have some of your optimism. I see the glass as more like one-tenth full. I’m afraid that February looms over every decision and will until all is settled.

That said, I’ve been a loyal fan for over 40 years, and I won’t stop now.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Golden State management smart smart smart, smart smart smart smart smaaaaart.

Atlanta Spirit dumb dumb dumb, dumb dumb dumb dumb dummmmmb.

By SalimFan

July 27, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

Ando and Ken, Amen to you both lol.

Also besed on the recent transactions that have occured over the past two months. It’s safe to say that whatever deals BK got done in the ATL (Bibby, Johnson, Harrington, Walker, Rahseed, and Payton) he probably faught tooth and nail against his bosses to get them.

Like I said, His decisions (although flawed) gave this franchise a glimmer of hope. Hopefully his efforts will not have been in vain.

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this

HB Ando

About this comment:

And if they’re too cheap or broke to pay this kid market, and replacing the things that make him special is virtually impossible, then it breeds a justifiable pessimism for all but the most devoted fans.

Well said.

I’ll take it even further than that. To me, the most devoted fans are the very ones who should feel the most disappointed in the ASG.You touched on it earlier saying:

….being a fan of the Hawks, and holding the ASG in contempt, are not incongruous.

Just like being disappointed and speaking out against the Administration does NOT make you less of a patriot. Actually more of one, according to Jefferson. (that would be Thomas, not Richard).

I’m not here because I like to b***. But I will b*** if I think that ownership is wrong. And that’s because I care. And so do we all, that’s why we’re here.

By roan st

July 27, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

In fairness to Rick Sund I certainly don’t blame him for the loss of childress. He simply wasn’t here last season to offer up a legitimate extension to either josh. And his dealings with childress during the free agency period was typical of what any GM would do. Other than GS none of the other teams have signed their restricted free agents either. Childress signing with Greece came out of left field and whatever bitterness he might have had against the Hawks can’t be blamed on Sund. However, with the sorry reputation that the ASG have around the league and with the fan base it’s imperative that they sign Josh Smith. Unless he is just demanding a contract that he knows will get him moved because that is his objective, they must get this deal done to save the franchise. It’s that damn crucial. Good post Ando.

By ray

July 27, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

Wow, look at all these trade proposals. Had a few of my own, but got beaten to a couple of them. The others…well, I’m enjoying the present discussion.

I guess I’d better ‘fess up to the Kirk-n-stein post. Especially after Sautee told me on the phone “I know it’s YOU, you clown!” Hell, I thought it was funny or I wouldn’t have posted it. As for the other stuff…well, I would apologize for calling a spade a spade…if somebody could convince me that it’s not a spade.

By the way, if a minority uses the term “minority” in a joking fashion…is it still “wrong” somehow? And here I was thinking that a black person using the “N” word was controversial. I guess a black person saying “minority” is offensive,too…for some people. Heh. Whatever.

Ando, I know you’re not a sadist, but you have to admit that your present sparring partner…ahem…punching dummy situation is not much different from sado-masochism. And no, I’m not calling anybody a dummy…

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

Ben

Read my 6:13 p.m. post again. You’ll see that I had no dog in this fight.

Check before responding with indignance.

I never even thought about it, because it seemed so unlikely. Like many trade proposals here. Besides, the Warriors were NOT giving up Biedrens.

By ray

July 27, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this

Hey Ben, I thought you were going to change your name? Well, anyway, I don’t think that’s nearly as bad a trade as you do. Bibby is going to have to be traded by us at some point anyway. May as well get something for him. He’s due $15.25 million this year. Think he’s worth it? Better yet, would you want to have to try and keep him at that price? I’ll take HHops trade proposal for a couple of reasons.

Ellis and Biedrins will be around for years. They’ll be good for years. That rounds us at through the entire rotation. Horford gets a partner (with some size) in the paint that happens to be a double-double guy. JJ gets a running partner in the backcourt who has a lightning quick step, can shoot from anywhere, and is a hell of a finisher. Plus, he can split or take over most of the ball-handling duties (instead of us repeating the disastrous idea of having JJ handle the ball all the time).

Am I saying that’s the best trade idea? No. But if we’re losing Smith, having a a rising young star guard and a rising young, solid center is NOT a bad way to go. But that’s just me…

Of course, Golden State has apparently just signed both guys to good contracts, so we won’t be seeing such a trade, most likely. Meaning that they understand where their bread is buttered. Too bad not all organizations understand this.

You know, the longer we look, the shorter the list becomes of those RFAs who haven’t been signed. Are we going to continue pointing to that list as one name after another drops from it?

It’s been beat to death, but I can see giving Josh $11 million per year. Some of these trade ideas are as likely to be possible as not. Some of them might match up contract-wise, but many don’t make us better, be it short-term or long-term.

The Dallas trade idea doesn’t work for us very well if Diop is not included (which he won’t be…Mark Cuban will not make the same mistake twice…I don’t think). Otherwise, we’re left having to make other moves after that trade to balance the roster. Moves like Ando suggested: Williams and Pachulia for Bargnani. But would we make that move? It took a hammer blow just to get Evans…

By the way, I am looking forward to seeing him play.

Sautee, agreed.

By jhan

July 27, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this

Roan & Najeh, why is Warriors management so smart? They let their best player, Baron, leave for another team.

Are they suddenly smart because they signed their next best players? They were not pro-active enough to sign all their RFA’s to deals before the market was set. Wouldn’t they be a better team with Baron, Ellis & Biedrins?

I will probably take some crap for this statement but I agree with kirk - management was correct in playing the waiting game. They just got burned “on the river” to use a poker analogy.

Now they have to decided what to do with Smith. If we all agree that keeping JJ is a good thing, then trading Smith for a couple of veteran starters makes sense. JJ wants vets for this team. Do you really think he wants a bench full of Lorenzen Wrights? I would think he is looking for teammates along the lines of Prince, Billups, Wallace, Odom, etc…

If Ando is correct in predicting JJ will opt out next year do you think Smith is the cornerstone to build this franchise around? If not, does it make sense to tie up $12 million a year in a player that can’t carry your team? How would Josh react to being the focus of every other team?

There are lots of other factors to consider when resigning Smith. Whether he is deserving of the money is only one of those factors.

By kirknga

July 27, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

KenStrickland

I believe I have agreed with almost everything you said in your earlier pot. So what the issue is I don’t know.

You and others believe that allowing RFA’s to hit the market rather than signing them before hand is a sign that the organization defies common sense and thus is not committed. In other words you are asking the organization to not use it’s leverage, but bow to the players demands, no matter what they are, in order to show “commitment”. I disagree.

I see the same situation and say if you have a player that is not a consensus max player and you can’t agree on a contract, then letting a RFA to explore the market is ok that’s the system the players agreed to abide by.

The Childress loss was unfortunate. But we still have other players on this team, and have added another player some people were excited about until he was signed.

There are things that excite me about this team.

I think Bibby is a very good player, ditto for JJ and Horford, I think Marvin has great potential and this year will be very interesting in terms of his development.

I’m intrigued by Acie, will he take a step forward. Speedy is back, we think, and that is an addition to the team I think we might discount.

Zaza is serviceable, and what will happen with Solomon?

Then we will have the resolution of the Smith matter, if he returns fine with me,I’ve already said pay him his $12million,( but people still are complaining)because that is what the market looks to be.

Should he return, I hope for the sake of the team, that Smith is the kind of player people here insist that he is. Otherwise the Hawks will be stuck with yet another bad decision.

Woodie is on the hook because he doesn’t have long term security so it will be interesting to see if he rises to the occasion.

So ,as a fan, I find compelling stories with this team and this season.

People seem to think that because those of us who don’t dwell on the things that we can’t change such as, the limitations of ASG, and the current head coach, every day are somehow unaware, uninformed,stupid, or in some other way lacking.

I know that I try to deal with the hand we’ve been dealt. No reason to fixate on the cards and not continue to play the game.

I can’t go back and changed the past. It’s done. So I look forward, not because I’m pie-in-the-sky, but I’m pragmatic. The season will start and the Hawks will have a team and we’ll see how the decisions turn out one way or another.

Until the season ends and we see if the Hawks improved, stayed the same, or regressed, we will not know for sure what was good or bad about anything that took place.

So perhaps the issue is emphasis and perspective.

Go Hawks!!

By new jersey faithful

July 27, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

I cant believe Chills has gone to Europe, he will be missed very, very much! Why do we, the fans, even bother with the Hawks?? All the complaining about Woodson, and he is back, what a joke. This team will be horrible next year with or without Smith. I dont blame these guys for wanting out, Im sure they do not want to play for Woodson anymore. What a joke Atlanta is!!!

By ray

July 27, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

Apparently, this is not viewed as positively everywhere…from cnnSI.com:

Evans, 6-foot-5, can shift between guard and forward, much as Childress did for the Hawks. Still, the 29-year-old Evans would have to be considered a significant drop-off from a younger player who averaged in double figures each of his first four seasons in the league, including 11.8 a year ago to help Atlanta reach the playoffs for the first time in nine years.

Atlanta can only hope Evans plays as well as he did against the Hawks in April. He scored a career-high 27 points on 11-of-16 shooting in a 121-105 win at Philips Arena.

Also…I was under the impression that this guy was signed already…yet here this article is…dated today..

By roan st

July 27, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

jhan, with all due respect I never said a word about golden state being “smart”. I just wrote a post about them signing both of their restricted free agents to contracts worth around 11 million per season. BTW, and since you are bringing it up, Baron Davis opted out of his contract therefore making him an UNrestricted free agent. He was determined to leave GS and sign with his hometown team the L.A. clippers and play alongside Elton Brand. Unfortunately for him, Brand bolted for Philly before the ink dried. GS had little choice but to wave goodbye to Davis because he thought he was going to greener pastures.

By HHoops

July 27, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Ben & Salim Fan

My bad on Salim. I thought he was a restricted free agent. Sheesh.

I understand your being against making Zaza a part of the deal. I don’t like that part either, but I was thinking that it might take including him for GS to go for the deal. My thinking there was that the Hawks would send the Warriors 31 M per in contracts and they would receive 21 M per back. I understand there are contract balancing rules by the NBA on trades so therefore another player might have to be involved. I think the contracts that are a part of a trade have to be at least 75% in value of each other. Manny T can help me here on this.

If GS would go for J Smooth and Bibby for Ellis and Biedrins then the difference in contracts would only be 6 M. I figure in that trade, the Warriors would be getting the best & fourth best player (Smooth & Bibby), and the Hawks would be getting the second and third best players (Ellis & Biedrins). I like the trade because the Hawks would get a 2 guard and a 5 that are signed for 5-6 years that can be starters for them. The Hawks would also save some money that could be used to sign other players like K. Brown, R. Morris (if Zaza was included) and a back up point guard. The Hawks would be very strong at every position as long as Acie and Speedy could get the job done @ PG.

Relax guys. It’s just my opinion!

By MannyT

July 27, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Looks like folks have gotten kinda chippy, but then mellowed with the Josh Howard talk ;-)

Months ago I think Ken S. or Astro J. & I said, it’s all about having a better team by the start of the season. That can still happen by the end of October. However, it does get more difficult as there are fewer experienced folks to court.

SalimFan or should I prep your next tag from The Mod Squad, I love your words about BKs focus on winning throughout the day. I think he was clearly a better GM than Babcock and Sund has yet to impress, but it’s too early for a legitmate report card…even with Chills leaving. I also liked that artilce that showed the lost decade.

I think BK had a Gumby/Mr. Fantastic player strategy. But, it’s difficult to be successful if the organization is not in line with the plan.

What I’ll really miss about Chills (and Smith if he leaves) is their flexibility. Along with JJ (and Marvin to a lesser extent), they have all shown the ability to play 3 positions. While players are replaceable, flexibility was a highlight of BKs drafting. Even Salim & AC have that combo guard tag. It’s ironic that the skill set allows Woody to play fewer players.

I hope Smith gets a Monta Ellis offer like mykhalc mentioned. If we cannot keep our own free agents, it is hard to see other noteworthy free agents taking the Hawks seriously in the future. I think it’s more important for him to get the 11-12 mil for the Hawks future credibility than it is for them to do a sign & trade. Ando has made several strong points, inlcuding the fact that you can trade Smith in the future if the contract is too much of a Whole Foods budget for Wal-Mart ownership.

Sautee you are right—if Dumars has interest, I trust him more than Sund. If I were marketable, I’d hire you as the agent for MannyT’s acronym empire…Acronympho!

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

kirknga

I figured it out quickly enough, but at first I thought you were talking to Najeh. ;-)

*KenStrickland

I believe I have agreed with almost everything you said in your earlier pot.*

By mariettaman

July 27, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

truthfully, j smooth is flawed like all of us, he disappeared in every game in boston, but so did almost every one of the hawks, al hortford may have been the only one that kept his composure for the most part, id let him go for amare, or maybe deng and noah, other than that id just pay him and try to trade marvin right away and maybe bibby by the trade deadline if he isnt gonna be the bibby of the playoff runs in sac. they dont wanna lose all the momentum they had at the end of the season by getting some solid vet for this “great talent”

By newkid

July 27, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this

HHoops & Ray, sorry for the long delay in responding to your posts; friendship called and requested help, so I had to go. The Smoove for Bynum (and an additional piece) scenario has for me been a provoking thought since the Lakers traded for Gasol. The notion starts with the proposition that, if surrounded by the proper pieces, Kobe likely has 3 maybe 4 more realistic championship runs in him before he starts to decline. After having already spent 6-7 years in the league further developing his game, Pau’s ready to be a major contributer in the triangle offense, but won’t carry a team by his lonesome. I think there’s still warranted uncertainty amongst Lakers brass, and particularly Phil, about the extent to which Bynum’s ready to give the Lakers the sort of defensive post presence they’ll need to make a series of runs at championships over Kobe’s next several years. Even if he is, he’ll come at a price 3 to 4 times as high as a Kwame Brown, who might provide a much tougher defensive mindset, while not showing the scoring prowess (Gasol to the rescue).

So, with Kobe earning north of $21M, Gasol on the plus side of $17M, why extend Bynum at the $12+M he’ll likely command as an RFA if you’re not 100% convinced he’s an essential piece in the championship runs you wish to make over the next 3-4 years? Why not move him now - while many others are still infatuated with his upside - for a young talent (Smoove) who has done far more over the past four years to demonstrate his value on the court, especially if you can fetch that ‘other’ talent for maybe 2-3 million per annum less than what it’ll cost you to re-sign Bynum? And if that ‘other’ talent makes Lamar Odom much more tradeable for say a Ron Artest (and another piece), haven’t you dramatically improved the defensive quality of your team (remember the Boston series?), while perhaps actually cutting into the amount by which you already exceed the luxury tax threshold?

It works for Atlanta for a number of obvious reasons (e.g., moving Horford to his natural position, moving a justifiably disgruntled player to meet a need at a position of significant weakness, finally beginning to balance the roster, etc). Given Smoove’s popularity among Hawks’ fans, Sund and the ASG can’t afford the impression that the S&T is simply for serviceable pieces so as not to relinquish Smoove with zero compensation (been there, done that). Smoove’s value has never been higher, and if the ASG can’t/won’t afford him, they’ve gotta play hardball with whomever is seeking Smoove’s services via a S&T. The Lakers may be in the best position to make the sort of deal it’ll take to gain access to Smoove and ‘help’ Sund and the ASG save face, while improving the Lakers’ chances (given other moves are made) of surrounding Kobe with the pieces he’ll need to come out of the west and whip the Celtics for the O’Brien trophy over the next several years.

Sorry for the extra long sentences. My colleagues have for decades properly implored me to purchase - and employ - several dozen periods for each paragraph I compose. I don’t suppose I’ve been a very good listener on that score, have I? Sorry.

By Ben

July 27, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

ray, that trade is atrocious.

Firstly, we only have 6 guys under contract right now. Speedy and Solomon don’t count (I hope Speedy does this year), Smoove hasn’t been resigned.

So you want to trade 4 players for 2? Let’s say Salim was still on the team.

And who says we have to trade Bibby? If he’s healthy and slimmed down, I would very much like to keep him this whole year and work his magic.

HHoopsfan, sorry for overreacting—I’ve just seen so many awful trade rumors involving Smoove. Yours wasn’t that bad, but I just snapped because I’m tired of everyone else’s trash. Such as this Smoove for Al Harrington, Bellini (sp?), Rashad McCants

By ray

July 27, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this

Jhan, I wouldn’t say that Warriors management isn’t smart (how’s that for avoiding the question).

They let Baron Davis go, and I’m not sure how that happened. I’ll say this though: they did try and recoup by signing a 20ppg scorer in Maggette that fits in their offense splendidly. Davis might be gone, but they did sign up their future in Biedrins and Ellis.

How can you say that the Warriors were not proactive enough to re-sign their RFAs (they only missed out on Davis, the re-signed Azubuike), then agree with kirk and say that our management was right to do the very same thing? We’re still in a bad way with a future player in Smith, and we have only recouped by signing Evans…

I guess the short way to say it is this: the Warriors lost Davis, but made Ellis his heir, signed him and matched the offer for Azubuike, and then went and re-signed Ellis, along with adding a huge talent like Maggette. Pardon me if I don’t see us making the same kind of progress.

I understand your point about JJ opting out and paying Smith like he’s a cornerstone of the franchise. I’m not ready to say he is, but I’m also not ready to say he’s not. I would be ready to say Horford is, but I also recognize Horford’s ringing endorsement of Smith, along with the fact that we need young, uniquely talented guys like Smith. Paying him 11 or 12 mil per year is NOT a max contract. And have you considered the idea that JJ’s opting out might, just might be because of situations like we’re in now?

I wouldn’t want to stay either, if management looks this unsteady, and can’t even keep the core that is supposed to be used to build around me.

However, I agree that trading Smith for good vets is a good thing, especially when compared to a one year qualifier. Long as it makes us better.

The only thing I’m really dissastisfied with is right now. Right now, we have neither: Smith, or good veterans. Of course, we also need vets that will stick around…

By roan st

July 27, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

Why in the world would Golden State trade Biedrens and Ellis for Smith and an expiring contract? I like Smith and think him to be a unique talent but lets not get crazy and over inflate his current value. Ellis has all star written all over him and Biedrens is the same age as smith and already a top notch rebounder and solid defender in the paint. And if Ellis can prove he can run the point effectively he could be in the same class as paul and d. williams. Smith ain’t gonna fetch that much in a trade.

By new jersey faithful

July 27, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

I dont blame Chills for leaving the NBA, its such a BS league. Look at the Kid trade, and how all the first place teams always get the veteran help at the end of the season. The NBA sucks!!!

By Sautee

July 27, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this

MannyT

Welcome Back.

Acronympho is funny as he!!.

You need to quickly see if there’s a domain name available!

By ray

July 27, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

Ben, didn’t we just trade four players last year for ONE? That’s how we got Bibby.

I realize that Salim is not on the roster. Sorry about that, I forgot. Look at our team right now. You’re right about the contracts. They don’t fit. We will probably have to agree to disagree on this, but that’s no big deal. This is what I see:

I’d rather have Ellis, at what he’s making, for the next ten years than Bibby for what he’s making for any number of good years that he has left. He got destroyed by Rondo, and I don’t see where an injured thumb or whatever it was explains not being able to match step for step. He’s not done yet, but he won’t be a the top of his game for much longer.

Biedrins is a clear upgrade from Zaza. And a bit younger. He becomes the 5, Horford the 4. We then are not stuck with Zaza being the only true big on the bench. We sign Morris, we have Solo, we sign another guy.

By the way, you can say that Speedy and Solo don’t count…but by my count…we have 9 guys under contract. Evans makes 10. I could be wrong.

Either way, it doesn’t matter, as the Warriors will most likely not be stupid enough to trade such a bright future away, despite how attractive Bibby’s expiring contract is.

By MannyT

July 27, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

ray The Evans thing makes me laugh. Instead of looking at granny for the lack of action, I think the ASG has been hanging with the same group that got my scorn a few days ago.

HHoops You have to be within 125% plus 100k. For 21 mil in salary that means you can take back 26.35 mil.

All that said, a trade doesn’t help unless we are on the good side of the magic beans.

WASP

By Ben

July 27, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this

OK ray, if you want a PG combo of Acie / Speedy

and to have Biedrins and Horford and Randolph Morris as your only bigs, go for it.

Like I said, if Bibby is healthy and has lost about 10 or 15 pounds, this will be a very exciting season.

If you watched the highlight Bibby video on YouTube that was recently posted on Hawksquawk , you’ll see that Bibby sees everything, and if this dude stays healthy, we are in for a treat this year.

He got roasted by Rondo because he is out of shape from injuries and because Rondo is a very tricky player who is extremely quick.

I dislike the trade—you like it.

Cheers.

By ray

July 27, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this

Newkid, no harm done. The blog is not a first priority in anyone’s life…I hope. I like your presentation. I just wonder if L.A. is really ready to let go of a young legit center that was very promising before injury. And I’ve read the articles behind the “issues.” Smoove’s value is definitely on an all-time high.

Funny how people point to a lack of reported offers for him to try and back the argument that he’s not worth that much. Yet the same people are the ones shouting that the owning team has the best leverage. Well, you’d think this explains the lack of “out loud” offers, but noooooo. There are some people that know things that are saying the “behind the scenes” offers for Smoove in a S&T standpoint would flip your wig. Considering the sources, I believe it.

There were some serious rumblings reported that the Clips were going to offer Smoove 13 mil a year, but were convinced that they’d tie up their money for nothing, as Atlanta would match. Bet they’re re-thinking it now, after having observed events of the last week or so…

I still don’t know that L.A. would give Bynum up. I know they like Josh, though. Hmmm. I agree: If we’re not going to pay him what it takes to keep him, then play serious hardball with a team that really wants him. I think Detroit wants him too.

What can be said? Sekou says that two powerful teams, one from each conference, want Smoove. I’m betting the offers aren’t garbage, either.

My only concern is this: don’t accept offers that only make you better for one year. I don’t know about you, but the words “cap space” scare me around here. It just doesn’t mean the same thing here as it does elsewhere…

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

Well it doesn’t matter anyway… if I’m not mistaken you can’t trade a newly signed player for 6 months anyway, so Biedrins and Ellis are off the market for the Hawks.

Either sign Smoove long-term or trade him for Okafor plus another player… those seem to be the only options at this point in time. Josh Howard comes in a distant 3rd, and as far as I’m concerned Tayshaun Prince is not even an option. If the DASG has any brains and/or balls at all they will give Smoove his $65 million and beg for forgiveness for being such a bunch of jackazzes.

By HHoops

July 27, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this

Manny T

We would be on the side of the Magic Beans. Bibby has a 15.25 M contract & the Hawks can sign Smooth for the 12 M that he wants. This trade would send 27.5 M to the Warriors. Ellis signed for 11 M and Biedrins signed for 10.5 M. That would send 21.5 M back to the Hawks. The Hawks could include Coach Woodson in this trade to make it legal!!! Surely GS would go for that!

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 27, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this

“Roan & Najeh, why is Warriors management so smart? They let their best player, Baron, leave for another team.”

The Warriors letting Baron walk is very different from the Hawks letting the Joshes walk for this reason: Baron already has ten years worth of mileage and has established himself as one of the most injury-prone players in the NBA. That’s two very valid reasons for not paying a guy a long-term maximum contract, especially when you have two younger, less injury prone rising stars (or at least near-stars) to pay. I don’t agree with their Maggette signing — I thought they overpaid him, and he’s pretty injury-prone too — but the financial commitment to him is significantly less than what Baron got/is getting.

The Joshes on the other hand are much younger, not injury-prone, and are not demanding maximum contracts. There’s really no reason to not extend them other than to be cheap. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we should have matched Olympiakos’ offer — my contention has always been that if we took care of business ahead of time we could have signed Childress to a market-value deal. And the longer the J-Smoove negotiations go, the more animosity Josh is gonna have towards the front office, the worse the potential sign-and-trade options are gonna get, and the less likely it is that you can sign him to a reasonable deal long-term. That’s why Golden State is smart (well, at least smarter) and Atlanta is dumb.

And regardless, I just finished watching that South Park episode, so I just wanted to drop a reference to it somewhere.

By HB Ando

July 27, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

The suggested GS deal is simply pure fantasy. The signings, of both Ellis and Biedrins, for the same kind of money that Josh should rightfully expect, only confirms what Mullin has been saying for over a year: those two aren’t going anywhere.

GS didn’t LET Baron get away. He exercised his contractual right, and took less money than a lot of teams would have given him, to go home to LA, where he was raised, and where he can attend to his post-NBA passion, which is the movie business. His leaving, and freeing up the $18+ million it would have taken him if he was willing to play hardball, gave GS the flexibility to pay market for Ellis and Biedrins, add Maggette, and keep Azibuke.

The idea that they’d turn around and give up their two best young players, now locked down for the next six years, to acquire Smith (leaving them no center in a conference that includes Bynum, Oden, Duncan, Amare, Gasol, Kaman and Camby), makes no sense whatsoever.

Does anyone think that a lineup of Bibby, SJack, Maggette, Smith and Al Harrington is better than Ellis, S.Jack, Maggette, Harrington and Biedrins?

I don’t. GS is is now anchored with tremendous, emerging star talent, at the 1 and 5, regardless of the fact that Ellis is not a true PG. And look at their bench. Marcus Williams (where were the Hawks when NJ was giving him away?), Azibuike and Belinelli on the wings, Brandon Wright at the four, and Turiaf at the center.

They’ll be fine without Baron, who is as talented as just about any guard in the NBA, but who’s a coin flip to miss a significant portion of any season.

This is a classic example of my perpetual theory on interchangeable parts, the leveraging of players as assets, and the critical value of roster balance.

The best teams in the league have one of two foundations. They’re either comprised of a perfect balance of complementary roles/players, or they have 2 historically dominant players, a compliment of role players who understand what their value is, and a coach who can get the individuals on the roster to accept their roles, and subjugate their egos for a chance to win a titile.

The Hawks have neither. And, based on where we’ve been, and where we look to be heading, that’s not going to change any time soon.

By doc

July 27, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this

LOLBT .. laugh out loud and bring tears. sautee what an honor dude. acronympho!

MANNY T once again you top it off with another classic.

ray, figured it was you. someone called me to find out if it was me. not on your life i am that creative. plus i do my best to stay politically correct before it was cool i might add. seems you and jesse get a pass since you are brothers. blame it on fox network if that doesnt work. i dont get that margin if safety no matter how even keel i speak.

besides, i already have two story lines going in granny and the alchemist to entertain me.

By ray

July 27, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this

Ben, uh….Ellis would be the starting pg if we traded for him. What do you think they’re doing with him in Golden State?

Biedrins, Horford, Morris, and Solo would be the bigs. If management has a brain, they’d sign another. You’re assuming that Solo isn’t here (which he is) and that no other bigs would be added. Of course, I’m assuming that management has a brain…

I agree that Bibby was out of shape. What lower body part did he injure that caused him to not be in good shape? I thought it was an injury to the hand…As for Rondo being tricky…he’s a third year pg! Bibby is a playoff tested veteran many times over. Are you telling me Rondo is too tricky for one of the top pgs in the game?? But I agree, Rondo is quicker. That would be part of my point.

Look, I like Bibby. But answer me this: is he worth $15.25 million a year? ‘Cause that’s what we’re paying him. For one year. What do you suppose it would take to keep him? I’m not looking to throw him away. Dude has major game. I hope he’s healthy too. But ya know…we spent the last two years saying the same thing about Speedy….

But like I said, no worries mate! That trade will never happen. Golden State isn’t that stupid.

By silentobserver

July 27, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this

“jhan” How will Smith be as the focus of other teams every night? Maybe you need to check his stats when JJ didn’t play. He avg. over 20ppg and shot a high percentage. “Kirknga” How can you give praise to JJ and Al Horford for 37 wins? Do you think Al Horford had a better season than Josh Smith?

By silentobserver

July 27, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this

“jhan” How will Smith be as the focus of other teams every night? Maybe you need to check his stats when JJ didn’t play. He avg. over 20ppg and shot a high percentage. “Kirknga” How can you give praise to JJ and Al Horford for 37 wins? Do you think Al Horford had a better season than Josh Smith?

By ray

July 27, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

Doc, now how can you do me like that? Jesse Jackson? C’mon, man. That was down and dirty…… And funny!! I did it partially because I thought it made for a very non-politically correct and back ward joke…and partially because it was a sneaky way of making someone reveal information that they otherwise wouldn’t….heh heh. I can imagine where you got your phone call from. Probably same person I talked to…hee hee!

Najeh, no way is Golden State that dumb. No way. And you’re spot-on about Childress. Charlotte is still playing harball where Okafor is concerned. Don’t know that we could get him, and don’t see where Charlotte goes for that. We wouldn’t give up Horford. They probably wouldn’t give up Okafor. Not when there’s not a single guy on the roster that can do what he does for them (kinda like us). But ya never know…

By brent a.

July 27, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this

Messed up city.

the Braves still insist on plugging Jeff Francoeur in to the line-up every day, and

the Hawks appear set on shipping Josh Smith out of town.

Get your priorities right Atlatna!

PS - trade Smith to my Lakers for Odom. Please.

By MannyT

July 27, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this

Najeh You can trade them, but if Golden State is over the cap now that they have resigned 3 players and picked up Magette, base year compensation rules apply. That makes things messy. Both those guys would have 1/2 their value in a trade, so in the HHoops Bibby/Smith for Biedrens/Ellis deal, the numbers are more out of whack.

Even if Chris Mullins caught a face full of Josh Howard smoke right before Sund called him about the deal, it would not fly…but it is nice to dream.

However, I think the ASG could raise ticket prices if they found a way to put Woody in any deal this summer.

ray I look at the lack of offers for RFAs the same way they do coaching searches nowdays. No one gets to officially offer and get rejected. There is a bunch of back chatter between representatives. Once a deal is worked out, then an offer is made.

Because the original team gets to match, no one wants to make a major offer, because it can make you vulnerable fi you have exposed assets. Sure the guys below MLE have done offers, but check the chatter on all the above MLE level players. Before Golden State took care of business, no one acted on RFAs. The next team to act on a RFA probably gets some positive press. If you are the last one to the party, you get a bad rep unless you really do overpay!

WASP

By ray

July 27, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this

Ando, succint as usual. I do so tire of expounding on the virtues of other teams. I’d rather be able to say the same about ours. IN the meantime, how can one feel like the glass is half full when it seems that it is always tipping over?

And where’s your sacrificial lamb? I haven’t heard the ususal bleating this eve….

By JohnGTFan

July 27, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Folks, it really doesn’t matter. It will have to be a sign and trade. Smith feels like the organization stabbed him in the back. Only 2 ways out of this (please please please sign Josh Smith won’t work folks…)sign and trade…or watch him sign a one year offer and walk. I truly believe ATL could offer him 14 mil a year and he would turn it down. I think he feels like he was wronged that bad. He doesn’t want to stay…and he won’t. We just have to hope and pray for a good sign and trade, because it’s that, or enjoy him for one year and watch him disappear with NOTHING in return!!! He already deleted his myspace page when all this started with good reason…you people don’t honestly think it’s because he was doing “routine maintenance” do you? He has to create a new one…whenever he figures out what uniform he’ll be wearing and where to put his “location”…because it’s no longer ATLANTA!

By Ben

July 27, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this

ray, the fact you keep mentioning Solo is a big on this team is not encouraging. The dude cannot play, period. Ellis is not a true PG (more of a Gilbert Arenas-type guard) and doesn’t have the PG skills to set us up on the fast break IMHO.

Rondo is a 3rd year PG, as are Paul and Deron. Did you see CP3 completely frustrate, tear apart, and adopt Jason Kidd as his son during round 1? Experience doesn’t matter—Rondo is full of tricks. Bibby just looked out of shape this year—looked more like Ron Artest or Baron Davis than he has looked like Jason WIlliams in years past.

Who cares how much Bibby is making? Let me lead our team and let his contract expire unless a good deal comes along. The dude, when in shape and healthy, is worth a hell of a lot of money. He’s one of the best PG’s if not the best PG in decades to never make the All-Star team

By doc

July 27, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Crap

in honor of manny t

By ray

July 27, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this

True that, Manny, true that.

We could use some positive press. More than that, we could use some positive moves. Like the Evans acquisition, but it’s great as a third act. I’m waiting on the headliner and hoping that it’s a smash! As much as I want Smith signed, I have to maintain that a good trade is a good trade. Especially if signing him only meant a one year then gone type of deal. Rather not have somebody who doesn’t feel like being here. And only heavy money makes that feeling go away. And sometimes even that ain’t enough. Ask Elton…

By doc

July 27, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this

yeah ray ando is a little upset. heh heh

By ricksundisagenius

July 27, 2008 11:54 PM | Link to this

Rick Sund won’t pay fair value for his own players. He said that he wasn’t impressed with 37 win season as a reason for not paying Smith and Childress. I can respect that theory. Yet you resign Woodson with a 106-222 head coaching record. How can he explain resigning Woodson with that horrific record but he plays hardball with his players. Maybe someone could enlighten me.

By ray

July 28, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this

Ben, LOL!! Dude, I have to mention Solo as a big….he’s not a guard or anything else. It’s not my fault that he’s not “big enough” to be a big. Anyway, I’d always sign another decent vet. Nothing really special (the ASG doesn’t seem to like spending much…have you noticed?), just something solid. I would like to see Kwame and his defense here, but I think he’s headed to L.A. Randolph Morris is too much of a question mark, but a big he is.

As far as Rondo: Dude, you’re making my point more and more. He is full of tricks. Tricks that Bibby wasn’t solving. Don’t know what to tell you there. I really like Bibby. However, I can’t ignore the kind of money he’s making. We can’t afford him for much longer. Look at how the ASG has been operating for the last four years. As for your comparisons to Ron Artest, Davis, and Jason Williams…I don’t know what you’re getting at. Artest is not a pg, Davis is better than Bibby, and Jason Williams is almost done (decidely not as good as Bibby). Again, I’m not trying to throw Bibby away. But I’d like to see him moved at the right time for something that extends far into the future.

We can argue until the sun comes up about Ellis being a pg. He doesn’t have to be a pure pg. He just has to run the team. And GS is more than willing to let him do it. So no sweat, you won’t have to worry about him bringing his 20ppg and 4apg here. God knows we don’t need that. By the way, look him up on DraftExpress.com, and you will get an updated profile, analyzing his performance from this past season (and beyond). They’ll tell you in the very first sentence how he is classified.

I’d like to see Bibby lead the team this year. But I’d like to not see us pass up a good deal just to watch him for a year and then watch him walk away. I am thinking about the future.

• He’s one of the best PG’s if not the best PG in decades to never make the All-Star team*

Now that’s not very encouraging. Let me think about this: we’re paying $15.25 for a guy that’s never made the all-star team? I think I understand why Sacramento took half of our garbage for him (not that I didn’t earlier). Maybe because they had a young pg who was giving comparable production….for a LOT less money. I’m just sayin’….

By ray

July 28, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this

Very good question. How do you justify re-signing Woody and then freezing out your players? I wonder if those who like to hang the 37 win season on Smith and Childress necks ever think of that? Nope. Would be detrimental to their arguments.

Ben, I made a mistake. Ellis’s profile is NOT up to date. It’s from 2005. They thought he was a pg then…but also thought he wasn’t. They thought he couldn’t handle the ball at all. He’s got a 2-to-1 assist to turnover ration in the NBA. Doesn’t make him a pure pg. But you don’t have to have one in Nelly’s system (or any other coach that knows how to harness the talent).

By james

July 28, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

This is getting ridiculous, the deeper we get into free agency the worse this situation with josh smith will get. You got guys like monta ellis and beidrins getting at least ten mil and not to mention andrew bogut getting 12 mil and the hawks are once again struggling to get things done. I admit when i first saw childress leave I was upset, but after thinking I realized that someone was going to have to leave, because they had enough small fowards, would have preferred it would have been marvin, but oh well. Sign smith and find a decent center so u can move move smith to sf, horford to pf and let marvin come off the bench with evans and the hawks will be ok. I am this close to being done with the hawks, it not so much as them not signing anyone it is the way they are going about doing it. There is no excuse for this, every other team in the league had a reason as to why they took so long to resign their free agents, with the exception of the bobcats. They were pursing other people to make their team dramatically better, but what were the hawks doing? I am getting tired of trying to defend the hawks, I cant do it with a straight face anymore because I don’t even believe it myself anymore, until ownership shows differently. What was suppose to be a good momment for me, I am actually coming back to ga, I was looking foward to seeing some games, but now it’s like what the point.

By jhan

July 28, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Unless Bibby is willing to take a huge paycut he won’t be playing here next year.

How come we lost Childress because he decided to opt out & go to Greece, but Baron exercised his contractual right? Either way didn’t the player choose to go somewhere else?

By doc

July 28, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

the post at 11:54 is from a newcomer or an alias of one of or own. i know someone it isnt, like kirk or samuel but it is about the smartest and straight forward expression for the present conundrum facing hawks fans when one plus one always adds up to three with this organization. only those that chooses to play three blind mice cant see it.

rsig, that is one we need to keep around.

uh last heard coming from the car sund is now driving is to be considered the new theme song for the hawks. in fact it is the song that the new hawks dance team had to perform to without breaking a smile or laughing …. WILL IT GO ROUND IN CIRCLES?

By doc

July 28, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this

and the answer is …. i didnt ask for a raise, was grateful to get a contract, and i dont complain. the three best assets i have in my coaching repertoire.

By BLUE EAGLE

July 28, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

to bad BIEDRINS already signed with Golden State.

if Atlanta keeps up their slow-ballin and low-ballin ways they could just end up with their worst summer yet. (no draft picks and losing 2 key free agents)

I don’t know if Biedrins for Smoove makes that much sense, but the thought of having the long, effectively agile and composed Biedrins to man the center spot while letting the Horford do his damage at power forward does not seem such a bad idea. The key here would have to be Marvin Williams elevating his game and make himself worthy of his draft spot.

or Atlanta could consider seriously a deal bringing in Tayshaun Prince and Amir Johnson. Tayshaun provides veteran production with so many intangibles while in Amir you get your replacement “high flying, high potential, exciting player”. Although, he may not have the veratile skills of Smoove, Amir could prove to be a valuable athletic and agile big man. Both players could provide what will be lost with smoove’s departure. Tayshaun could provide the playmaking, the long ball, as well as the defense while Amir could provide the big man game, the athleticism, the shot blocking and the excitement. Hell, they could even ask the pistons to include a Plainstead or Walter Sharpe.

Crazy, but it could work. Better than JUST LOSING SMOOVE.

By Ken Strickland

July 28, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this

ROAN ST-I don’t think it would have mattered if Sund had been here last yr or not. The 2 Joshes were drafted and highly valued by BK, and SAASG wouldn’t allow him to offer them extentions or fire Woodson.

KIRK-I’m not attacking you or trying to initiate an argument. There’s no need for me to single you or anyone else out. Not with the SAASG at my disposal.

After we made the playoffs and took Boston to 7gms, I was soooo excited about the upcoming season. But the SAASG has turn that excitement into the offseason from hell. They’ve succeeded in rehiring a liability(Woodson), while losing assets(Chills & Salim). We are also faced with the prospect of losing Smoove as well. TALK ABOUT GOING FROM SUGAR TO SH!T.

By doc

July 28, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this

jhan, the common feature is both players felt disrespect, baron with his coach culminating in a very public benching in the last game where it still meant something and chills having to go out and get his contract number.from another team rather than sit down and NEGOTIATE at the table until it was done so each party was happy.again both players felt no love.

i imagine the folks that work with/for you jhan get treated a little different and sort of like family. dont you think that might save you some money in the end and get better performance to boot? dont you htnk that might even work with gazillionaires, probably all they lack. kind of what i was helping management learn as a consultant in 1973. simple concept but some still work from a very antiquated n**** system. please look up the word if you dont know what it means and it doesnt imply what you think.

By MannyT

July 28, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this

doc I started to LMAO, but then I realized it would jeopardize my chance for record breaking crap ;-)

ray I think IF Smith doesn’t want to be here, it is due to the contract negotiations. If he gets a deal similar to Eliis, I think he will be ok if the Hawks do some basic relationship management. A trade is better than getting baklava for him, but resigning him is the preference.

If the ASG decides to do it now, the deal will be done by Labor Day!

WASP In the salary cap era, it is easier to blame cap manipulations for hard bargaining. Before the cap era, it was only a question of what the team was willing to pay. Using the stream of consciousness from the blog, a bad contract is like a turd that is too large to flush. It backs us the toilet and slows down all sorts of things in the place.

Face it, the Knicks biggest problem is the cap. The Cablevision Crazy has enough money to sign players. He just doesn’t have cap space.

By doc

July 28, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this

n** means miserly, sometimes computers cant read jack sh!t.

manny t as you know but some others might not only the luxury cap is meaningful. the other cap is for public relations purpose for the foolish fans that think it means something and the union to assure folks get paid. all it means is there arent any real low ball players like the marlins or royals in the nba. most teams and good teams work closer to the luxury tax, just not the BASG.

By doc

July 28, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this

okay i will throw down the gauntlet:

the luxury cap which means owners can spend to if the desire to build max compensation without penalty is 71.15 mil. in other words the hawks can spend 71 mill without paying their brothers too.

the minimum cap is 58.5 which means if the team makes a qualifying offer to chills they are only obligated to spending 54 mil this year staying below cap legally.

the range for the hawks if i read it right is 54 mil to 71 mil.

i imagine there was plenty of room to sign smoove, chills, evans and brown for legit salaries of 12 mil, 7.5 mil, 2.5 mil and 4.5 mil if they had wanted. they would have had 15.5 come off the board next year to work with when it came time to sign marvin and maybe re up jj while seeing how evans was working out and if he had displaced marvin in the least way.

what will it turn out to be? 54 or 71 mil?

By kirknga

July 28, 2008 1:43 AM | Link to this

Ken Strickland

I never thought you were attacking me or looking for an argument. If my comments lead you to believe that, then my apologies.

I understand that you feel the bloom is off the rose , so to speak, but the offseason isn’t over.I too was excited by the playoffs, but with the Hawks not ever mounting a credible challenge on the road, I knew that there could be some warning signs.

Lots of things can happen between now and the start of the season, more can happen during the season, so I can’t get too excited, or bleak until I see the finished product and how it performs.

If Smith is resigned, great. We’ll see if it was a mistake or not. Same as if he isn’t signed, the results, wins and losses, will tell us as well.

In sports you never know until the games are actually played. All the analysis, all the speculation, all of the hype, will never substitute for the actual contest.

Just ask the Patriots.

By HB Ando

July 28, 2008 2:39 AM | Link to this

Kirk, nicely stated, underscoring the essence of the near-term unknown. None of us here, no matter that there are a handful who have been on the scene of Sekou’s gracious fan forum since its very inception, actually seek to define a sense of ownership. We’ll battle and disagree, daily. But, as you have easily ascertained, there are quite a few confident egos here. Blending in, without rolling over, seems to be the best way, over time, to assume a regular role.

Alternatively, taking a stance that you bring an unmatchable level of intellect and insight, to what doc has always referred to as “the liar’s table”, will ultimately see you fail to establish credibility.

If you want to be the blog contrarian, then you will either derive your pleasure by tangling with the most pointless of individual positions. And that is your right.

If you’d like to develop an ongoing dialogue, with what is, at its easily identifiable core, the folks who have been here, largely, since its inception, then it’s on you to establish your own credibility.

There is never a consensus opinion, here, on what is best for the hoped-for success of the Hawks. As a result, we constantly challenge each others opinions.

But there’s no upside, nor any perception that your presence eclipses the the cognitive range of most of our participants.

It’s OK to tell us just how smart you are. But your position that you’re clearly the alpha intellectual of the bunch, without any type of external validation, simply makes you a punch line.

Hang for as long as you want. Contribute what we would all hope is a unique, well-informed opinion. But save your breathe with unsupportable rhetoric that you sadly believe puts us in our place.

And thanks for playing (jeesh, that felt just as lame to type as it did to read)………..

By ray

July 28, 2008 3:27 AM | Link to this

Hmmmm. An invitation it was, with much a bit of bite to it, unlike the one I first offered that good while back. I wonder if the proffered hand will be clasped this time or snapped at as it was back then. Though mine was viewed as lecture, surely then this must be viewed as open chastisement. Not that I am in disagreement of it’s meaning…

In sports you never know until the games are actually played. All the analysis, all the speculation, all of the hype, will never substitute for the actual contest.

Yep. Never has, and never will. Even those who get paid to do it professionally have known this, though some seem to forget it.

By j

July 28, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

Hello, To Ray, HB Ando, Imus Write, Ken Strickland, etal,.. Gentlemen, it is hard not to feel a certain resentment from you guys towards those who might not be regular posters.

For what it’s worth, for many years, my start page has been ajc.com. The Hawks have been near and dear to me my entire life. I am 30 and have been attending Hawks games since I was 6. Since the beginning of this blog, I have been following it, albeit passively.

I understand all of the uncertainty followed by the most exciting first round exit in team history has piqued the interest of many. Including those who might not have actively taken part in Sekou’s corner. However, I believe this enthusiasm is a testament to Sekou’s excellent writing and participation by both him and the excellent postings of the aforementioned above.

Of course, an open forum is bound to draw bored Philly, Phoenix, and Laker “fans” who have nothing better to do than explain the team “sucks” and so do the supporters. And as HB Ando alluded to above, there are also bound to be contrarians who get their rocks off trying to annoy and offend all to get people to pay attention. Lame.

I have a huge appreciation for the many excellent posters on this forum. In fact, I believe you guys should start a Hawks blog. Given how few Hawks blogs there are, there is certainly a need. Cheers, J

By j

July 28, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

Hello, To Ray, HB Ando, Imus Write, Ken Strickland, etal,.. Gentlemen, it is hard not to feel a certain resentment from you guys towards those who might not be regular posters.

For what it’s worth, for many years, my start page has been ajc.com. The Hawks have been near and dear to me my entire life. I am 30 and have been attending Hawks games since I was 6. Since the beginning of this blog, I have been following it, albeit passively.

I understand all of the uncertainty followed by the most exciting first round exit in team history has piqued the interest of many. Including those who might not have actively taken part in Sekou’s corner. However, I believe this enthusiasm is a testament to Sekou’s excellent writing and participation by both him and the excellent postings of the aforementioned above.

Of course, an open forum is bound to draw bored Philly, Phoenix, and Laker “fans” who have nothing better to do than explain the team “sucks” and so do the supporters. And as HB Ando alluded to above, there are also bound to be contrarians who get their rocks off trying to annoy and offend all to get people to pay attention. Lame.

I have a huge appreciation for the many excellent posters on this forum. In fact, I believe you guys should start a Hawks blog. Given how few Hawks blogs there are, there is certainly a need. Cheers, J

By j

July 28, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Hello, Forgive the double post. Both times, the computer said the server was not responding. Cheers, J

By B.A.ToDa

July 28, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

Josh Smith will be on Team USA’s 2012 Olympic team. No way you trade him in for some “veterans”. Doesn’t make since to trade him in for some other players to try and do exactly what Smith Does.

By MannyT

July 28, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

doc actually there is a minimum cap. Charlotte ran into it about a year ago. I believe they had to give all the players more money because they spent below the minimum.

Minimum $44.01 mil, Cap $58.68 mil, Lux Tax $71.15 mil.

You accounted for Chills’s cap hold which they did not do in this budget link, but I believe you are correct. You get to save some money on the rumored Evans contract. It is alleged to be 3yr/7.5 mil which could be 2.3-2.4 mil this year.

What really matters for the ASG is that dreaded REAL BUDGET. We don’t know what it is and that’s a good thing. Some teams, like the Knicks will go into luxury tax payments. Other teams like Phoenix (w/Kurt Thomas) last year and Denver (w/Camby) this year, will give away players to avoid luxury tax. Some teams play it on the cheap because they get some of the luxury tax money that the high salary teams pay.

Fiscal good CRAP is very different across the league.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

GS sign Biedrins for $63 mil over 6 years… 10 mil for Biedrins, 11 mil for Ellis… BASG your move next…

By shizz

July 28, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

For those of you dreaming of Bynum or Biedrins, I’m afraid you’re just not being realistic. Neither of those franchises would ever do those trades, for two reasons. 1) Young, talented bigs are always harder to come by than young, talented swingmen. Smith is, for all intents and purposes, a 3, and that’s probably what you can expect to get back for him. 2) The more successful franchises (and yes, I am including the Warriors here, since they have been more successful than the Hawks over the years. It’s all relative) understand that a major key to sustained success is continuity. Building and maintaining a good, solid, young core. You develop assets and then do what it takes to keep those assets. Which is why you guys are having this discussion in the first place. ATL is not run as a successful franchise should be run. I think if you guys manage to get Odom for Smith straight up, then you’ve done a fine piece of work. The entire league knows that Smith has you over the barrel, so to speak. He wants to be dealt, has no trust in management, and if he takes the one and done, then you get nothing for him. Odom is a solid guy, who can play at the 3 or the 4, can do a lot of nice things for your team, will be great for team chemistry, and has a 14m deal that expires at the end of the year if it doesn’t work out for some reason. You weren’t going to win the East this year, with or without Smith. But with 29m from Bibby and Odom’s expiring deals, you might be able to make some noise next summer. It’s all in how you handle this difficult situation. If management makes a bold, decisive move, and doesn’t let this drag out any longer, you can still save some face around the rest of the league. Perception is very important when it comes to attracting FA’s.
Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas for Smith might not be a terrible piece of business either.

By B.A.ToDa

July 28, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

I don’t really want Odom here. Especially if he’s the only thing we get. Plus, that puts LA back in the Finals.

By Ken Strickland

July 28, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

BYJ-please don’t feel that way. Remember, all of us so called regular posters had to post for the 1st time at some point. We’ve simply built up momentum and gained a bit of recognition, understanding, acceptance, and in most cases, respect over time. My initial intro wasn’t that smooth. I butted heads with a few because I didn’t take the necessary time to know everyone and how they expressed themselves. Also, I was a bit more interested in being heard than reading and listening. It also helps to recognize there are some sharp and very astute minds frenquenting this blogs. So when you bring it, make certain you’ve done your homework, or you’ll be challenged.

SO, FEEL FREE TO JUMP ON IN, THE WATER IS FINE.

By SSI Fan

July 28, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Nothing stirs up the fans like a discussion about Josh Smith. I don’t think some of you ever sleep.

I’m from Glynn County and to those of you who don’t want Josh Howard because of his “smoking” then you definitely don’t want Kwam Brown.

By Michael

July 28, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

Hey Sekou,

How about you actually mention players, rather than “rumors.”

Telling us that good teams are interested in Josh Smith means nothing.

By doc

July 28, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

yes manny t i was aware of the minimum but i thought it was about the equivalent of the “cap” my bad. i am not sure but that same mincap was why jj got his huge front load as welll because they were not planning on bringing in folks that might delay or deter their plan to loe while bringing up and training their rookies …. only to drop that plan now possibly. oh yeah.

j speak up dude, we are always open and i dont have any problem with new folks here. funny arent all of us newcomers at some point. some stuck around others went through the fire so to speak. heh heh, all bring value but lets keep the merry band of optimists and pessimists here for the time being.

ken you came in thinking you were going to have to respond like you did in the falcon blog. :-)) despite the rough treatment those fein here it is mild by comparisons and respectful for the most part. agree najeh? frankly the stuff this weekend was mild by comparison to the first year, eh HONEST ABE. miss your attitude dude, never should have given up the red bull/expresso shooters my friend.

great point ken discourse and discussion requires fine tuning the words sometimes and attitude.

peace bros.

By kgbsfinst

July 28, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

I have said before I think 6 years $66 million for Josh Smith. I would even do 6 for $72. Keep in mind we would have him till hes 28 YEARS OLD! For the people that think he would be overpaid at 12 a year, what about when hes 26,27,28? That may end up being a bargin.

Two things to remember. One, he has improved every year hes been in the league, for anyone to dispute that would be crazy. The secone is that, of course, hes only 22. Can anyone remember when you were 22? I doubt you were the same person, and I hope you have learned from experiences, and matured. Josh will too.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

The ASG is playing with Fire if they do not resign Josh Smith. The ASG need to show the Fans/supporters of the Hawks that they are serious about winning by investing their money into this team. Manny T has explain the Salary cap situation perfectly. Under the ASG management, they continue to be one of the lowest payroll teams. If the ASG contiune to be cheap, than I predict they will share the same fate as the New Orleans Hornets. For those who are not familiar of why the Hornets relocated to New Orleans from Charlotte. Here’s the cliff notes. The Hornets owners decide they wanted to be cheap and have the tax payers foot the bill for a new areana. Which eventually alienated their fans base. The fans of the Hornets decided they were not going to support that ownership group. Hornets quickly drop for being amongst the league leaders in attendence to bottom half for attendence. In return, the Hornet was not making revenue at the gates or on merchandise which drove the Ownership group right out of Charlotte….

I hope the ASG would sale the team before it gets that ugly were they seek relocation (cough Seattle). However, the ASG can write a book on “How Not to Manage a Successful NBA Franchise”.

By Verbal Kent

July 28, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

Sign Josh Smith to a six year contract just like the one Biedrins got. I think Josh has more upside than Biedrins and I think he’d be happy with an opt out clause after a few years.

Knuckle head or not the kids got undeniable talent. And we need to keep him since we lost one of our other building blocks. No one will want to come to play here with the situation and heck even Joe Might opt out of his contract when that time presents itself.

If the ownership & Sund keep doing what their doing it’ll be another decade before we see the playoffs again.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

July 28, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

As a reader of this blog since its inception (and an on-again, off-again posting member as well) I, most years, have enjoyed the off-season commenting more than the in-season blogs due to the over abundance of one-and-done posts by people who are using this forum more as a vent than as a resource for dialog.

Over the years, I’ve enjoyed what many of the regulars have had to say, whether I’ve agreed with them or not. Most days, I’ll skim through the posts looking for ones by the people who provide the insight or humor that make the comments worth reading.

But all the fumes and fervor the last few weeks have created a blog that has turned into too many personal attacks between people commenting on this blog. That has taken away from the quality of this blog.

I come here because, as a life-long Hawks fan, I enjoy being able to be to around like-minded, passionate fans. True Hawks fans are hard to find, which makes this blog so valuable.

But lately, too much of this forum has become a p** contest between individuals.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it is obvious that many are here only to stir the pot, not to talk about Hawks basketball.

In the end, this blog will be what it will be, but I don’t think I’m alone when I say I care more about this team - and other people’s perspective of the team - than about the insults being lobbed back-and-forth.

If you’ve taken the time to read this - thank you although I apologize for the hypocritical nature of this specific post. But now, I’ve said my peace.

By B.A.ToDa

July 28, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Pistons say price too high for Hawks’ Smith

Looks like the Piston’s tried atleast. And for you wandering where i got this link from, it’s on the front page of nba.com news archive. Go ahead and resign Smith already!

By Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory

July 28, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Ok, on tha 7th u think I’m dead, yet I’m really alive

By roan st

July 28, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

Shizz, why would we trade josh for Odom’s expiring contract at 14 million. We could just sign Smith to the one year qualifying offer for half that price if we can’t work out something long term. No logic behind that proposal.

By doc

July 28, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

everyone read auken’s quote.

i like josh smith but if we find the right trade, so be it.

chuckw/deadjournalist, you cant talk to us like that we have been around forever, so to talk like that to regular posters is insulting

By RelaxAndTakeNotes

July 28, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

Another Monday morning—no Josh Smith news or more trade rumors. Argh

By doc

July 28, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

hmmm what do they say about the best form of flattery is imitation. 11:23 is not me.

By doc

July 28, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

that was me the other me needs to stop going against what im saying. -doc

read augen

By Ken Strickland

July 28, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

DOC-when you’re right, you’re right. As a matter of fact, I started to put a reference to the Falcons blog in my post, but thought better of it. Again, you hit the nail on the head. It’s just open combat on that blog, and very few actually listen, including me at this point. I found myself retreating more and more back to the Hawks blogs just to regain my sanity, my perspective and the joy of indulging in civilized discussions. The Falcons blogs get pretty raw, and the AJC seems to foster those types of discussions. They would rather limit the timeline for discussions rather than monitor and eliminate the vile, racist comments and name calling that’s so openly expressed.

I love football, even though it’s a violent sport. but, there seems to be something about it that brings out the violent attitutes and mentalities in certain people, especially when it comes to the Falcons and MVick. There are a number of players playing for certain teams in football, basketball and baseball that I don’t care for. But, I refuse to allow those feelings and/or emotions to cloud my judgement and/or make me reject facts or any sense of reality just to soothe those feelings.

Pete Rose did some despicable thinks, but none of those things will stop me from recognizing he played his anus off and was one of the greatest and most competitive baseball players ever, hall of fame or no hall of fame, sanctions or no sanctions. MVick also did some despicable things, and he was a flawed QB. But he was still one of the most exciting and gifted athletes in NFL history. He was also the most successful QB in Atlanta Falcons history as far as team accomplishments are concerned.

With JSmith, I see a younger, less experienced, but more athletically talented version of our own human highlight film, DWilkins. Nique developed into an OFF machine, but even at his best, he could never match Smooves current rebounding, passing and overall DEF skills. Once his experience and basketball IQ catches up with his physical talents, WATCH OUT NBA. He will become an exciting gm changer, much like Dr J was.

As far as thinking we might be overpaying if we give him what he’s asking. Remember, we’ve gotten a lot of excitement, production, excellent off court behavior, hard work, dedication and improvement, from him over the last 3yrs. And we’ve gotten it at below market value. Paying him what he’s asking is just evening things out. He’s proven he won’t allow money to stand in his way of his continued hard work, excitement, production and improvement.

SAASG, JSMITH IS WELL WORTH THE INVESTMENT, AND HE’S PROVEN THAT MUCH ALL READY. HE’S THE ONE HAWKS PLAYER, SINCE THE DAYS OF NIQUE, THAT PEOPLE WILL ANE DO COME TO SEE.

By Mitch

July 28, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

The Detroit newspapers are reporting that the Pistons have had some interest in Smith…but that the Pistns and Hawks have not talked in over three weeks, because when they first talked, the Hawks wanted too much in return for Smith.

Sekou: what’s the Eastern Conference big boy, then? Because it’s apparently not Detroit.

The WC team is probably not the Lakers, because Phil Jackson tends to like more cerebral players for his triangle offense.

It’s probably the Mavericks…with Josh Howard as part of the package…but that is not a good fit for the Hawks, seeing as they now have Marvin Williams and Mo Evans at SF.

Been wondering about Portland and all the talent they have up there…and they always seem to be tinkering with their personnel.

SEKOU: give us something to chew on, will ya?

STEPHEN A. SMITH of ESPN believes that Smith has outpriced himself this year and that he will play for the one year tender and then become an UFA next year.

If that’s the case, it would behoove the Hawks to look for a sign and trade now.

They got no compensation for Childress. They’d better get something for Smith.

By MannyT

July 28, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

The Pistons story shouts a common theme between the lines…decision making here seems S L O W

and reactive.

If you do nothing, you are never wrong but also never in the mix to make something happen.

If Smith has outpriced himself in this summer’s market, he needs to get his agent to do some math based on the best offer he can get now versus next summer.

If he can get Monta Ellis money now his next 6 yrs get him about 11 mil/yr. If he tenders this year he needs to earn an extra 8 mil over the following 5 yrs AND a good financial adviser looking at the time value of money and structure of NBA contracts would tell him that he still isn’t catching up because Ellis will get his 67 mil faster.

Over 5 mil of the difference is this year (between Smith’s tender and Monta’s yr 1 salary).

If he wants 12 mil/yr and is offered 11 mil/yr, waiting a year will cost more than it’s worth. Lower raises on the offer unless it is done via a Hawks sign & trade even as an unrestricted free agent.

Hawks need to step up to 11 and Smith needs to take it.

Slow cheap PAIN on both sides is still PAIN. Neither side wins.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 28, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

J……. There is’nt any resentment twoards new posters, atleast not on my part. I kinda know what the regulars bring, so its good to hear input from others regarding our yungnz,trades,coaching etc…..

Like Ken, things didnt go smooth the first couple times i posted here. I consider myself a student of the game and sum people believe if you are a rookie to this blog that you dont know basketball,which is totally assinine.

Then there are others who come here just to start trouble and make racist remarks ie (rainman) Ive heard it all dude -Sum troll really got me p** a while back questioning my man hood……. you’ll learn to ignore those types….. any way welcome-look forward to talking hoops with you.

So many rumors so little time - I believe that Josh will sign a one year qualifying offer if this mess isnt cleared up soon- personnaly i say pay the guy the 12 he’s looking for 5yr/60million and call it a day. if he resigns and tests the water next year we’ll lose the guy with no compensation. I would prefer to go the sign and trade route, to bad Beans is already signed he would have been a good replacement for smoove -a legit7 footer with good athleticism and shot blocking.

I dont really want prince /amir but i would take them over nothing at all. why are we getting excited over Randolph……. From what i saw he’s not even as good as ZAZA and thats sad. If Kwame isnt a possibility then we have to keep solomon because we cant afford anyone else…………..

“I once complained that i was 6’4 and not 6’6 until i met a man who couldnt stand at all”

By terrell barron

July 28, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

I was thinking about how much a couple of bigs could do for this team, so I look out West and see that Portland has Oden, Aldridge, Frye and Prizbilla. WOW! Must be nice. Hey Sund, I think they can spare at least 1. And they could use an EXPIRING CONTRACT(Bibby, Zaza, Marvin(1yr. left). Get on the phone immediately!

By HB Ando

July 28, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Chuck, I appreciate the sentiment of your thoughts. Before the first summer/off-season, for this blog, I suggested to Sekou, in an e-mail discussion, that with nothing more than the draft and the limited likelihood that Billy and the franchise would be active players in the trade/free agent market, I was afraid folks would, lacking much new to banter about, fall into testy slap fights.

It happened, as expected.

This summer, with no draft picks to discuss, and, once again, no realistic expectation that we’d make any waves in the trade/free agent market, there’s been even less news, other than the saga of the Josh’s, and the various interpretations of what the near future holds.

So, like every summer here, and not unlike what siblings do during the hot summer days, when they just get sick of seeing each other every single day, folks tend to devolve into petty bickering, while we all await some type of move that puts the conversation back on hoops.

Once the ASG shows their hand, as it relates to Josh Smith, all the time wasted on ego clashes will be redirected to the purpose of the blog.

You also have to factor in that there is a great deal of worry, anger and discontent regarding the direction and future of the franchise. Folks are going to lash out at just about anybody that presents themselves as a viable target, because we can’t fire the ASG.

The insightful opinions that you can find here, on occasion, will resume, because the folks that typically generate them are still here.

We’re just acting like a bunch of petulant children because we’re bored, frustrated and feeling powerless, as the team we love to talk about, and follow, seems destined to disappoint us.

A little reality check, like yours, is almost always a good thing. So thanks for the post.

By jhan

July 28, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Doc, I can’t disagree with you regarding people that work for me. I don’t believe anyone that works for me has ever felt like I was disrespectful towards them. They may not have liked a decision I made, but I always treat my employees with respect.

As Ray once told me, the NBA is nothing like real life. So to draw comparisons between real life & the NBA is basically a waste of time.

On a human level I agree with what you said. My experience leads me to believe everyone wants to be treated fairly. Who decides what is “fair” is where the differences are highlighted.

ASG: Just sign Smith or trade him. Do something!

By #21=Top 50,1stBallot

July 28, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

All this looking at contracts, BASG, etc and a frisson runs down my spine- the similarity between 1999 and 2008. There is a distinct possibility that after 08/09 season our potential laden, playoff team from this past season will be completely differnt from what will be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. I foresee this looking at a couple factors:

1. With sign and trade options waning, Smoov most likely takes one year offer and leaves via UFA

2. Bibby’s contract expires after this 08/09, may be traded prior to deadline

3. Duck’s up for extension, but seeing as how his salary will be 7.3 mil he will conceivably be looking for more than that still as a “potential” player. Seeing how we balked at the Joshes, I wonder if/why we’d pay a streaky jump shooter with few other assets.

4. Joe will be entering final year of his contract. Given his repeated expressions of disatisfaction with management, what are the odds he re-ups with the Hawks? If so is he still a max player? Possible trade.

5. Woody will have been exposed at some point for what he is (insert apt pejorative)

6. Zaza up after 08/09 odds of resigning variant, though I’m not sure he’d stay if Woody still at helm

This may be looking waaaay to far in the future since our 08/09 roster has yet to take shape, but I can’t help but dubiously look at the dubious augurs of continuity that lie ahead. We dont seem committed to the “core” we espoused as such to previously. I know that the NBA is a business, etc, but it would seem a poor business model to continually reconstitute the make-up of your team every 4 years, especially when it seemed to be progressing (even if at a desegragationary pace- which is to say “with all deliberate speed”).

The sad part is that this will be akin to the last time the squad made the playoffs. After losing to the Knicks we blow up the roster to get younger. It would appear we are trying to repeat the results by inverting the formula. Just because the salaries go down and the age goes up doesnt meant the win total will…

RISE UP

By j

July 28, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

Hello, I.mus, I truly meant my missive with all due respect. I again think you guys should band together and start a blog. Given the quality of the posts and the information within, I think it would be a worthwhile enterprise. I could not agree more about the rampant ignorance and racism that appears quite often all over the AJC forums. Certainly reinforces the worst held stereotypes of our populace and the South in general. Cheers, J

By Ken Strickland

July 28, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

TERRELL BARRON-don’t forget Rauf LaFrentz. Also, it’s no secret Portland has made their interest for Bibby known in the past through their efforts to acquire him. Bibby along side of BRoy could make them more dangerous than he made us last season. The addition of Frye or Pryzbilla could do a lot for us as well. If you can remember, I’ve been a fan of seeking Portland out for one of their BIG’s for a while.

If we turn this team over to ALaw, I believe he’ll be everything we’ve expected by the Allstar break, if not sooner. Speedy has proven he can be an excellent tutor and backup when healthy.

By Jhughes

July 28, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Either this Amare speculation or the prince deal seems good to me, atleast we get something in return for a angry smith.And there’s nothing worse than a guy who messes up the chemistry because he can’t get traded. I never really liked smith other than the spectacular dunks, but if we can trade more wins over more exciting plays then im all for it

By clint

July 28, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

Can you get a comment from smoove? I would really like to know what he thinks of the negotiations or lack there of and how he is being portrayed in the papers

By #21=Top 50,1stBallot

July 28, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Bibby to Portland makes no sense. They just drafted a younger, healthier version of him in fellow one and done Wildcat Jerryd Bayless. I don’t see them breaking their core of players for a player like smoov- he doesnt fit the team’s style. Pryzbilla is the only dude I could see them parting with from above names and he’s probably an Oden insurance policy. Have to look elsewhere to…

RISE UP

By Ken Strickland

July 28, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

BY#21-LaFrentz could be, and has been, their insurance policy, especially started last yr with the injury to Oden. 5 of the 12 players on their roster are 6’ 11” or taller. Pryzbilla is a little too productive to settle for being a backup to Oden. Even without Oden, they couldn’t find enough mins for all of their BIGs. His addition will only decrease their mins further.

LaFrentz’s salary is in the 12M range and they would be happy to get rid of his contract. The salaries work, so we might be able to get him for Bibby’s expiring contract. I don’t know how much he has left, but he was very versatile and productive prior to Portland. He rebounded, scored, especially from the outside, and blocked shots well. He’d be an excellent compliment to Horford at the 5, provided we resign Smoove.

Acquiring him would save us money. We’d save the approximately 3M difference is their salaries. If we acquired KBrown or RMorris, we’d have to spend a few million this yr for either of them. So, we’d end up saving about 5-6M with this trade.

By ToeKnee

July 28, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Are you seriously talking about getting rid of Bibby??We just got him! Joe, Bibby, Josh, Marvin, and Al. Thats our starting 5 with zaza and mo evans and acie coming off the bench. we just lost childress for nothing, and now you realy want to let smoove go?? why?? why do we need to replace guys that we already have?? for chills, the price tag was just too high, ok, ill accept that, ive never seen evans play, but for the price, it seems like it could be worse, but is josh really that expendable to you all?? have you seen what happens to the hawks when hes in foul trouble??? obviously your not watching the same team as i have been for the past 5 years, we need josh.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Frye would be the guy I would like to get from Portland. He could defend the post on DEF (opposing teams 4/5) and play on the premeter on OFF that would allow Alford to post up and JSmoove to slash/drive from the wing… New Jersey also could be a possible trade partner b/c they have an abundance of bigs (Williams/Boone/Swift/Kristic/Lopez/Yi) as well.

By #21=Top 50,1stBallot

July 28, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Ken,

I’ll have to disagree with you there buddy. Why would we take the Craig Claxton of centers? Dude is hurt all the time, check his game’s played the past couple of seasons. His skillset is nice, but he is not that dude anymore, he has little mobility and would be a $12 Zaza with a couple more boards (def rbs). It is a talent loss for Bibby, unless we get something else thrown in. Either way, it still doesnt serve Portland much to take on a contract of that magnitude, even for one year, because they would lose almost the same $ by letting LaFrentz walk at year’s end. Bibby provides more in value for us anyway, Law doesnt appear to be ready yet- at least in Woody’s eyes. Moot point IMO, at least with Portland. Dream dashed, ponder another one to ….

RISE UP

By ray

July 28, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this

Hello J. Nice to meet you and welcome. It’s an open table, as I’m sure you already know. Pull up a seat and we’ll mix your favorite drink for ya!

By ray

July 28, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

SSI Fan, what’s up. I’m over here in Chatham County.

Michael, Sekou only prints that which is solid and credible. We all want names…but notice that nobody else is giving specific names either…not even on HoopsHype or InsidedHoops.

By Eric

July 28, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this

This is the best chance to turn the franchise around. We know the T-Wolves are going to be terrible, so this will be a great pick, and we have the opportunity to get back a player who we know is going to put up great numbers! Al averaged 18 and 7 with us and now has a great 3 point shot along with learning how to run under Nellie. How many 6’ 9” players can run and shoot the 3 like Al? BRING BACK AL!!!

By Eric

July 28, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, this is what I was referencing. HARRINGTON!!!!!

http://www.sportsline.com/mcc/messages/chrono/9584836

By ray

July 28, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this

chuckw/deadjournalist,

I agree with Ando: your words ring true. And as far as the hypocritical nature of your specific post…LOL! I doubt that it would reach the level of hypocrisy that has already existed (for which I readily share the blame) here. Good to hear from you, even if it’s been a minute. But then, there hasn’t been much b-ball to talk about, has there? Not with our side moving like molasses on a winter morning….

Melvin, I agree. Frye is one of the guys you go after if you’re trying to get something from Portland. Definitely.

As I recall, the Amare Stoudamire idea was just that: an idea. He never was coming here, and he won’t be now. Phoenix keeps trying to add pieces down low to compliment him. And they will continue to do so (Shaq isn’t going to get it done).

Ken, I have like LaFrentz’s game since he was at Kansas. Dude cannot stay healthy for anything, though. If he could, he’d be a good veteran pickup. His health just scares me though. In the meantime, I wonder if Randolph Morris will ever develop into anything worthwhile for us (he does have some skills…but motivation is another story altogether). Assuming we actually sign the guy, that is…

By Ben

July 28, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

Sekou posted a blog on a Saturday morning and no update since then…Argh.

Wasn’t yesterday season ticket day at Philips? How can we possible sell tickets when the Smoove situation hasn’t been resolved?

By ray

July 28, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Eric, what are you talking about? Harrington plays for the Warriors…I must be missing something here…

I see where Kwame Brown’s agent says he just signed a contract with Detroit. At first, I was going to lament our inability to even scrape the barrel for another halfway decent veteran big. Then it occurred to me: Kwame is useful, or Detroit wouldn’t sign him, nor would L.A. consider re-signing him. Kwame was somebody we were interested. Kwame could be a shrewd move by Dumars to add a piece that potentially makes for better trade bait for Josh Smith. And even if it doesn’t work out, Dumars still has another defensively capable big….Sound crazy? That’s because I am crazy…but that’s beside the point….You NEVER know…

In the meantime, I see another article about Nenad Krstic going to Europe. Included in the article is the report that the Nets tried to get Josh Smith, but didn’t have what it took to get a deal done. Hmmmph. Who knows…

By RaJaH

July 28, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

Haven’t seen this posted on here today .. but Kwame is apparently headed to the Pistons…

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3508699

By Jed

July 28, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this

I totally agree with Eric. This is the best opportunity to stay good for a long time. Harrington is very unappreciated in G-State and would totally spread the D for Joe and Bibby. Josh Smith is very selfish and doesn’t care about winning!

By Rich

July 28, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

Eric was talking about that 3 way trade with the Warriors. It’s on his next post. HARRINGTON HAS MAD SMOOV SKILLZ AND A SWIZEET TRE!!!!!!!!!

By Bad Bart

July 28, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this

Dude, Eric, that trade sounds perfect! Smoove’s never going to be a shooter like Al! I miss Al, his attitude was awesome and everyone seemed feed off his energy. We could have a Suns East with Bibby, Joe, Marvin and Al! Spread the floor and let Horford go to work! Plus, with the draft pick, that would be big time for a malcontent like Josh. I also think he’s hit his ceiling. All’s he’s ever going to be is poor man’s Loy Vaught.

By Paul

July 28, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

I think Eric is onto something here. With Bibby, Joe and Harrington nailing 3’s all day, they’d be Suns East!!!! LET’S DO THIS!!!!!

By ray

July 28, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

Jed, uhh….not to argue, but if what you say about Smith were true…then nobody would want to trade for him, ya know?

By El Din

July 28, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

I totally hope that 3 way trade with the W’s goes through. The T-Wolves 1st round pick will be great and we get back Harrington! THAT GUY WAS OFF THE CHAIN WITH US!!! He’s a way better teammate than Smith!!

By nicky b

July 28, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this

THE WARRIORS WOULD BE STUPID TO MAKE THAT TRADE! HARRINGTON’S A TOP 5 3 AND THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO THROW IN A DRAFT PICK? NO WAY!

By Eric

July 28, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

I’m glad you guys are seeing my vision. Let’s just hope the front office can get their act together and get that cancer Smith out!

By Jed

July 28, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Ray, uhh, you’re right, every player in the NBA is the consumate teammate.

By Bad Bart

July 28, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

Josh is a knee injury from being sent back to the NBDL! He’s a freak athlete with extremely marginal basketball skills! THE BUM HAS GOT TO GO! Besides, he’s taking playing time away from Zazu and Mario West.

By Jed

July 28, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this

Um, nicky b, the T-Wolves would be giving up the draft pick. It’s a fair trade all around, but I think we would be coming out on top.

By cp

July 28, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this

Why would we want Harrington back here? The guy plays terrible defense and is not a good rebounder. The guy has knees of a 40 year old man. Oh and he took shots at this frachise after he was traded. He would not want to come back here. We got rid of him to make room for Marvin so why bring him back. Bibby and Harrington on the court together would be straight out ugly from a defensive perspective. People complain about Marvins defense but hell Marvin looks like Bruce Bowen compared to Harrington.

How is Josh Smith selfish and does not want to win when most nights it looks like only him and Horford are the only ones who bust their butts night in and night out. If you dont want Josh Smith here just say so stop all this nonsense about him being selfish and not caring about winning when the guy is giving you all he has every night. I wish other guys on this team showed the type of passion he shows out there. Its funny to me how some people claim that the only reason some folks want Josh here is because of his flashy dunks but the folks who say he needs to stay here dont even bring up the dunks. Its always the ones who want him shipped out who bring up the dunking. Some of you are not doing a good job of acting like you want this guy out of here because of his on court performance.

As far as his bball iq someone help me out here. The only two things that always had me upset about his game is the jacking up of the 3’s and him pushing the ball up the court at times. Someone posted numbers on here once that showed he cut down on taking so many 3’s and when Bibby got here he did not try to push the break as much. I always saw it as him trying to make plays rather than something else. I mean we had Lue and AJ here so I dont think I can even blame him for trying to push the tempo. What is he doing that shows his bball iq is so low? Should I question JJ’s iq? I dont think I have ever seen a guard handle double teams as bad as JJ was this year. He was dribbling himself in a corner and pounding and pounding the ball. He was seeing doubles night in and night out and never adjusted in my opinion. Look what happened when Boston changed up their defensive scheme to guard him. So does he have a low bball iq for handing the double teams so poorly. I dont think he does. Do people want Josh gone this bad? If we could improve this team by trading then by all means do it but do you really think a team is going to give up a legit talented big for him? NO. Talented bigs are hard to come by and teams dont trade them unless they are lazy and cancers to the team ie Curry and Randolph. Im sure if we trade Josh we will not get good value back . So if we cant improve this team by trading him why even do it. Give this cat his money and try to fill out the rest of the bench.

By nicky b

July 28, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

JED, MY REAL POINT IS THAT THERE’S NO WAY THE WARRIORS WOULD TRADE HARRINGTON FOR JOSH! EVEN IF THE DRAFT PICK CAME FROM TEH WOLVES! ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING WHAT THE WARRIORS GAVE UP TO GET HARRINGTON!

By nicky b

July 28, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

cp, are you even a Hawks fan?

By ray

July 28, 2008 8:42 PM | Link to this

Okay Jed. Is that what I said? Noooooo…

By cp

July 28, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

nicky b you said that Al Harrington is a top 5 3 in this league. That says all I need to know about your basketball knowledge.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

We already the Al Harrington and JJ lead team experiment and that produce about a 20 game winning season… I don’t see that as an improvement for the Hawks. Besides GS already have B.Wright and superstar in the near future Randolph.

As for Detroit, why would we trade for Kwame when we could have signed him just like Detroit did…..

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

CP, it’s invasion time, LOL! Here’s what’s killing me:

1)Harrington’s a top 5 3. So, out of Carmelo, Lebron, Paul Pierce, Shawn Marion, Richard Jefferson, Ron Artest, and Caron Butler…which is Harrington better than? If he’s top 5, then he’s better than at least 2 of them, right? I could add more names to that list, but I won’t…yet.

2)Josh is a knee injury from being sent back to the NBDL! He’s a freak athlete with extremely marginal basketball skills! THE BUM HAS GOT TO GO! Besides, he’s taking playing time away from Zazu and Mario West.

This was too funny for words. Josh didn’t come from the NBDL. West and Zaza aren’t in his league…I’ve never seen extremely marginal basketball skills produce steadily better stats in the NBA. This is entertaining to watch, though….

Hey Jed, you’re right, this is such a great move. Let’s bring back a guy we already drafted another guy (Marvin Williams)to replace him with. A guy who, once he left our team the first time, had this to say: “Sure glad I’m out of there. Losing all the time sucked.” Yep, genius move. And just how high would those two first round picks be?

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Melvin, I don’t see anything like that happening. As for Kwame, I’m thinking Detroit is only signing him to make a move, but as Ando told me, it’s probably so they can move ‘Sheed.

As for trading for Kwame when we could’ve signed him….you forget who you’re talking about, LOL! We can’t seem to sign anything, including our own free agents. And I keep seeing things that say that Maurice Evans hasn’t been signed either. Going to check the “transactions” section of NBA.com to see if it’s been formally done yet. Until I do, time to stop taking things a face value.

CP, don’t let ‘em get your dander up. It’s that time of year…happens every summer. Like a pestilence, LOL!

By terrell barron

July 28, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

I guess it’ll have to be Morris. Dumars took a chance on Kwame.

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

Well, guess what.

Went to NBA.com and searched under this year’s transactions. The Maurice Evans signing wasn’t there…which means it hasn’t happened yet.

Time to take that egg right back to the chicken and shove it under the chicken’s butt…and see if it’s actually going to hatch or not.

So far, this is what we know for sure: we lost Josh Childress for nothing. That’s it. Period.

In other news….so…Rasheed might be moving. But where? Oh, I’m so amped up about that….yaawwwwwwwwwn.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

Clippers signed Ricky “Get Buckets” Daivs. Philly signed Kareem Rush (shooter). Detroit has a verbal committment from Kwame Brown… Teams are not standing pat. At least they are trying to get better even if it’s on paper.. Uh, BASG it’s Your Move…

By cp

July 28, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this

lol ray its getting ridiculous on here.. I was gone go down a list of 3’s who are better than Harrington but it would have been too much work. You could do a list of 3’s in the East alone who are better.

By terrell barron

July 28, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

You’re on to something Ray. Dumars is going to offer Prince and Kwame for Smith. I dont know about that one. I want Maxieel instead.

By Melvin

July 28, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

Ray, Think about the excitement that the BASG could have generated had they done the following. Resigned the Joshes. Then sign David Andersen, Mo Evans and Morris Randolph. My how I think that team could have been competetive this upcoming season…. As mention in the pass by many bloggers, this off season was the most important for the Hawks in recent years. The BASG has fail the test miserly…

BASG = PAIN…

By Sautee

July 28, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

ding!

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

CP, he ain’t the best on his team…not with Maggette and Stephen Jackson in the fold (and Azubuike playing the 2 spot)…

Melvin, these guys are beyond frustrating. They’re standing pat because the want to keep Josh, but don’t want to pay him. We’re going to get screwed. They refuse to listen to trade ideas, whether they make us better or not. Doing a little digging, I find an article quoting Phoenix Suns vice president Griffin and Childress’ agent Lon Babby.

They both said that Phoenix was very close to getting a deal done for Childress, but the ASG dragged their feet big time. I can only imagine what kind of assets we missed out on….

By Steve

July 28, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

As a long time Hawks fan, I’m disappointed in the offseason so far, but losing Childress ain’t the end of the world. Get J Smooth signed (up the offer to $10.5 - 11 million/yr). Sign someone big (Randolph) and trade for another (Swift). Let those guys rotate with Zaza and slide Horford to the 4, Smith to the 3 and put Marvin on a now improved second unit with Evans and AC. We’re bigger and deeper at center, have Big Al and J Smooth playing their more natural positions. With Evans providing a 3 pt shooter and Marvin a scorer off the bench, as well as Bibby for a full yr and an improved AC, that’s an improvement at every position over last year. We should be over .500 and back in the playoffs. Give us another year together and maybe Childress back or send him somewhere with a draft pick for a big man who can hit a 15 footer and we have a complete, young team headed in the right direction with a couple years of playoff experience as well.

By terrell barron

July 28, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

Hey Ray, is it official? Has Evans signed on the dotted lines? I did’nt see anything on NBA.com transactions.

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

terrell, it’s possible. And I think any one of us would rather have Maxiell. If I’m Dumars, then that won’t fly, but you never know. Dumars could be sick of the ASG dragging their feet like they usually do and just load up to do a deal with someone else. He may be after Artest.

The other thing is, I don’t think you can trade somebody right after signing them, so Kwame probably can’t be traded. We need resident expert MannyT to answer that, though. He knows what he’s talking about.

Melvin, they have a rapidly shrinking window that they must use SOON to avoid total failure. And you’re right: this is the summer. It’s now or never with this group.

By Ben

July 28, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this

Steve, Smoove wants 13 mill at least because that’s how much LAC offered

By ray

July 28, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

I’ll agree with just offering Smith $10.5-$11 mil per year….we can damn near go anywhere after that and still be okay….well, not anywhere, but you get my drift.

By Showdee

July 28, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

Y’all have no vision. Like nicky b says, you even a hawks fan cp? This ain’t about bringing back Al Harrington. Even tho Al would bring us some more of that west coast flava that team dime brought us from the kings. This is about the t-wolves lotto pick. We all no they be sorry so the pick going to be hi. We have to rebuild and this is the opportunity. #1 wolf pick and harrington for smith? no brainer.

By terrell barron

July 28, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

Showdee, REBUILD? wtf? We only lost our 6th man guys. Good Grief!

By James Jackson

July 28, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

ray

do you have a life?

By cp

July 28, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

Im a hawks fan but its clear to me that you guys are not basketball fans. Once again why would we bring Harrington back. We drafted Marvin to get rid of Harrington. Do you really think the Wolves would be dumb enough to send away a first round pick without having it lottery protected? You guys remind me of the ESPN commercials where the guys were talking out of their a**es. The Wolves would put so much protection on the pick that it would end up being a mid first rounder years down the road. NO team in their position would trade away a future first knowing they will end up being in the lotto for the next few years. If you are going to trade for Harrington’s 9 mill a year contract then you might as well pony up a few more million and pay Smith.

You have to lost this blog in the summer time. Guys wanting to trade a future all star for a guy who is not better than the guy we drafted to take their place. Then thinking that the Wolves (although they do make bad decisions) would send a first rounder away without having it being lottery protected. The season cant get here fast enough.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 28, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

“This is about the t-wolves lotto pick. We all no they be sorry so the pick going to be hi. We have to rebuild and this is the opportunity. #1 wolf pick and harrington for smith? no brainer.”

That sounds great, except for a couple of problems: 1. Al Harrington is getting paid way too much money over the next two seasons for how much he contributes. If they are willing to pay Harrington $10 million next year they might as well pay that money to Josh and then try to work out a trade later if they can’t afford it.

1. More importantly, Rick Sund is our GM. This is the same guy who picked Robert Swift, Vladimir Radmanovic and Saer Sene in the lottery, and picked Nick Collison ahead of David West. Needless to say his draft record is, if anything, significantly worse than Billy Knight’s draft record. What makes you think he won’t similarly screw up the T’Wolves’ lottery pick?

The Hawks have been rebuilding for nine years. They have finally managed to assemble a core of three young, talented players who should be a force in the Eastern Conference for years to come. Now is not the time to rebuild or to add more youth — it’s time now to find complementary pieces to the current core and improve this team beyond where it is currently. If the DASG lets a vital piece of their core leave they are just showing that they are unwilling to spend what it takes to be a real contender.

Not that any of us didn’t already know that.

By roan st

July 28, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

AL Harrington? Is this some kind of joke? Did somebody really come on this blog and suggest we trade josh smith for al harrington or am I tripping on acid? And as far as draft picks go I don’t trust Sund ater his horrible draft record in Seattle. My understanding was that Sund’s job was to come here and add pieces to our core group of smith, horford, acie, johnson. This whole summer for us true Hawks fans has become my worst nightmare.

By doc

July 28, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this

ooooh, just went over to the mib braves web site for some relief. pretty ugly over there too, maybe worse. uh, must be in atlanta, back to the future.

By HHoops

July 28, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this

Trade Speculation

As you know by now, Detroit signed K. Brown. Could he be getting ready to move Rasheed? Do you think, since Dumars has shown some interest in J. Smith earlier, that he is going to try to trade Rasheed and Prince for J. Smith? Would you guys be for that trade since Rasheed has an expiring contract after the 2008-09 season?

I don’t think I would go for it. I hope we can resign J. Smith, but if we can’t we need to get one or two quality players that are signed for awhile that can really make us better for years to come.

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this

I think the only option the Hawks have is to resigned Josh Smith. I can’t think of any player in the league that would replace Smith’s production and sales revenue that makes 6 mil or less (considering the Hawks receive half Smith 12 mil/yr contract in return). Also, next year draft is projected to be weak in talent. So acquire a 2009 draft pick may not be a good idea for future value…

By ToeKnee

July 29, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this

Holy S*, if you can get prince and rasheed for josh and speedy, HELL YES you do it! did you see the celtics this year? even if its just for a year just look at that lineup:Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson, Tayshaun Prince, Al Horford, and Rasheed Wallace!! are you kidding me?! that would be sick! and youve got marvin, mo evans, zaza, and acie comin off the bench!…championship!

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this

Pistons have officially announced they are out of the Josh Smith running. I don’t think the Kwame Brown signing is gonna impact their starting lineup much, since Kwame pretty much sucks. The Hawks’ options look narrowed down to signing Josh (which is what they need to do) or trading him to the Mavs for Josh Howard. I would rather see a trade for Okafor than Howard but that’s what the scenario looks like right now.

Yo Sekou where’s the new blog at man?

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this

I think the Detroit trade rumors are old and dead. According to the link that someone (SalimFan?) provide earlier. I think these S&T deals that Sekou mention are deals that has been on the table for weeks now. I suspect the BASG will not trade Smooth. As they do not know how to get equal value for him in return or leverage a deal that would make them better. I think he will be resigned at the 11th hour… However, we are talking about the BASG and I could very well be wrong with my assessments…

By Bowdler for 3

July 29, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this

Wow. What a barrage of complete horses**t posts from 7:30 to 8:30. Smoove for Harrington?? Yeah. Maybe they could toss in Laettner to make it even.

By HB Ando

July 29, 2008 1:02 AM | Link to this

If the Hawks were a team that realistically could take cap space, and truly use it to make a big move, then I could CONSIDER (and even that concept makes me uncomfortable) trading Josh for an expiring contract. But given the very real fact that Atlanta is not a place that most top tier players in the NBA would consider, if they are unrestricted, then you simply have to throw out any possible transaction where we would sign-and-trade Smith for a player who can either opt out next summer, or who will be unrestricted.

We’ve had cap space every year since the ASG took over the franchise. They’ve never used it to sign a compelling talent, other than Joe Johnson (and even then, Billy got his shorts bluffed off by the Suns, unnecessarily giving up 2 firsts and Diaw for a guy that the Suns were not going to match).

So, if you’re seriously considering giving up Smith, which honestly makes almost no sense at all (unless there’s an offer that can’t be refused, that we have no hint of), it has to be for a unique talent, filling a role here that clearly makes us a better team (legitimate center), who’s rights are under our control for at least 3-4 years, minimum.

There is simply no logical support for the idea that the ASG would take the extra cap space, created by the ostensible expiring contract of a player received in a Smith trade, and sign the kind of top-tier talent that would ultimately justify the loss of Smith.

Just sign the kid. Give the fans some sense of belief that you (the ASG) have both a clue, and a commitment to compete with the big boys.

I’m as critical as they come where it relates to highlighting a players’ weaknesses, and, having attended quite a few games, I know that Smith is a work in progress. But anybody who’s watched these guys play would be disingenuous to defy the opinion that no one else, on the Hawks team, can single-handedly drive the crowd into an absolute frenzy.

I genuinely don’t understand why the ASG hasn’t locked this kid down, with a contract consistent with his peers, made up of other, emerging young NBA stars.

Besides being either dead broke, or absolutely clueless, I’m hard pressed to find another viable explanation for the way the ASG is handling the Smith situation.

And even more perplexing is the notion that they could possibly be so oblivious as to underestimate the PR nightmare they face, should they fail to lock this kid down.

I hope that something will transpire, in the coming days/weeks, that will explain what is seemingly inexplicable. Because if the ASG is this clueless, this broke, this unable, or unwilling, to function as a legitimate, respected NBA franchise, then they owe it to the fans of Atlanta to sell the team to an individual or group who has both the means and desire to do this the right way.

The clock is ticking, and though the ASG has already pocketed season ticket revenues for the upcoming season, based on last years unexpected playoff slot, they need to understand that they’ll pay the price 2 years from now, when folks, burned by the misleading suggestion that the franchise was fully committed to continued improvement, turn their backs and walk away.

I remain perplexed, and hopeful that the coming weeks will generate an acceptable course of action.

By mykhal c

July 29, 2008 1:20 AM | Link to this

all that needs to be said…I hope that something will transpire, in the coming days/weeks, that will explain what is seemingly inexplicable. Because if the ASG is this clueless, this broke, this unable, or unwilling, to function as a legitimate, respected NBA franchise, then they owe it to the fans of Atlanta to sell the team to an individual or group who has both the means and desire to do this the right way.

By balla wax

July 29, 2008 1:38 AM | Link to this

Yall trippin. Harrington for Smoove is the stupidest thing I ever read. But you throw in a wolf #1, then we got somethin. I don’t see that protected because they gettin rid of Carney and they get Wright. He got mad game. That’s a top 5 right there. Plus Al’s contract be comin up and the end of the year and that would give us a ton of money and 2 top picks in 2009. Dam, that does sound good. Sorry Smoov, luv yah, but if you gonna leave you ain’t leavin for free.

By ED

July 29, 2008 1:46 AM | Link to this

Is this is a Warriors blog? This is the biggest bunch of nonsense I’ve ever read. How can any of this be real? Trading Josh Smith and getting Al Harrington??? These guys have to be Warriors fans messing with us. I’m going on their blog and starting a Ellis for Jamal Crawford rumor. That’s just about as good a deal as we’d be getting. I don’t even know why I’m commenting on this.

By mykhal c

July 29, 2008 2:22 AM | Link to this

ANDO, smokin’ post man. sums up my feelings to the T!!! BRAINLESS…CLUELESS…USELESS…PERIOD!!!

folks…HARRINGTON??? put the pipe down and step away…PLEASE!!!

By not a hater

July 29, 2008 2:59 AM | Link to this

not only will the hawks current ownership run the josh guys out of town.the whole team is next unless the comish can pusade these group of clowns to sell the team and get someone in thier who knows what they are doing.

By Harry Hawk

July 29, 2008 3:10 AM | Link to this

F*** Harrington and Laettner.

We need a new Shareef in town, fools.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 3:18 AM | Link to this

EVEN THE F-CKING BOBCATS ARE TAKING CARE OF BUSINESS

It’s one thing to be incompetent, but to be more incompetent than the BOBCATS?

By ray

July 29, 2008 3:52 AM | Link to this

Ando, well said as usual.

Mykhalc, we’re going to be sharing a stiff drink called severe depression if the ASG doesn’t do the right thing.

Najeh, it’s sick, isn’t it? It’s just sick. I am sure that Detroit has moved on. The ASG has been trying it’s damnedest to scare teams off of Josh, but won’t offer him good money. It’s obvious they don’t want to trade him. But they don’t want to give him near what he’s asking. Like you said, even the Bobcats know when they’re beaten in the game of stalemate. And they’ve continually made it clear that they want Okafor. And now they’re moving closer to getting that loose end tied up. like I said some time ago…the list of RFAs who haven’t been signed gets shorter and shorter. Pretty soon we’re the last ones out there, and that is not a good thing.

I once said that this is not a good place to be, and I hope we’re not in the same position when it comes time to pay Al Horford. Some imbecile said that he hoped we were in this position, because not paying too much for a guy is the most important thing. Well, it’s not. Paying to keep what’s most important to you is the most important thing. The ‘Cats can’t feasibly replace Okafor. The only situation where I saw somebody really overpaying for a known quantity was the Wizards with Arenas. We can’t replace Smith. Nobody does what he does. He’s better than Kirilenko now. Soon, he’ll be better than Marion. And he’s still not going to make as much money yet. I think he’d go for 11. But if not, then give him 12. Obviously they won’t trade him.

Melvin, in spite of what some people have said, there is no way to make this team better without Josh Smith. Why? Because teams are not going to give us what it would take to do it. I’m willing to bet there’s not a single offer on the table, past or present, that leaves us in a better position for the long term. Not one. We’re not going to get a player that plays his position that’s better than him. We’re not going to get a guy who can start at center (and be good) for us for the next 10 years. So, there’s nothing that works that makes us better. Odom sounds nice, but he’d walk at the end of the season, just as Rasheed would. We’re not getting Bynum. Or Biedrins. Or anything like that.

Know what scares me more than anything, though? Watching Josh sign a one year offer, then average 20 or more points, 8 or more boards, and everything else he averaged last year…with a better shot, better shooting percentage, and lower turnovers. All of this, knowing that he will walk away when the season is over. Because if you couldn’t see your way to pay him now (or couldn’t afford it), then you can’t/won’t be able to afford him when he’s worth even more. And he will be worth more at the end of the season. Count on it. The only way that doesn’t happen is if he incurs a serious injury. And he’ll hold a grudge, which means he will walk like Baron and Elton did…for less money…and more happiness…if necessary. That’s my worst fear.

That should be the ASG’s worst fear. And they should pay. Not out of feat, but out of the knowledge that this will happen if they keep trying to play poker games with somebody who has the aces.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 29, 2008 6:24 AM | Link to this

And another one…

Leaving aside the fact that Krstic kinda sucks anyway, that’s 7 players who picked Europe over the NBA.

Obama or McCain better fix this economy before all the role players start jumping ship, huh?

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

Melvin

Listen man, that “ding!” from last night wasn’t pointed at you. I guess something happened with my server, cause I posted that at 8:25 p.m..

I totally agreed with your excellent 9:36 p.m. post

By MsDee

July 29, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

Yall, not too sure how true this is but I heard that it may not be all ASG’s fault where Josh Smith is concern. I hear that Josh long time friend Dwight Howard is trying to woo him to Orlando. If not for this season but for Josh to sigh 1 yr ext to be a UFA to sign with them. The ASG IS offering Josh big bucks but he doesn’t want to play here anymore. He wants out so the ASG is trying to get something out of Smith now instead of losing him with nothing in return!

By Mike

July 29, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Hey Sekou,

Vacation’s over.

how about you post a new blog and actually include names rather than blank rumors

By Melvin

July 29, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

No problems Sautee. I didn’t get offend by it. Ray and Ando Excellent post last nite/this am…Najeh Even Charlotte decide to spend some money to keep their guy. Who (in my opinion) is not as nearly as good as our RFA (Josh Smith)… Ok, that’s 12 mil per/yr for Okafor, 11 mil per/yr for Ellis, 10 for Beidirens… I guess we are going to reference that Iggy, Deng and Gordon doesn’t have contract yet. My that list is shrinking… BASG It’s Your Move

By Ken Strickland

July 29, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

Whoever suggested reacquiring Harrington needs to try and remember that ESPN commercial where the guy was talking out of his anus. Marvin Williams is our current 3, and his overall production(except for 3pt shooting) surpasses Harrington’s. And, he has room to improve while Harrington is on the down side of his career and production. I also counted 10 other SF’s, besides the one’s mentioned by RAY, who’s overall production surpassed Harrington’s by a significant margin.

Whoever made the suggestion, I wonder if you’ve ever managed to hear the names of LDeng, AIguodala, CMaggette, HTurkoglu, GWallace, JHoward, DGranger, KDurant, RGay and SJackson. These are the 10 other 3’s in the NBA who’s overall production surpasses anything Harrington has done recently.

Harrington would do well to finish in the top 20. I didn’t even mention TPrince or TOutlaw, who’s production virtually equals Harrington’s. Their DEF alone would rank them ahead of Harrington. REMEMBER, ON THESE BLOGS WE PREFER TO DEAL WITH INFORMED OPINIONS, NOT EMOTIONAL OUTBURSTS.

By Sautee

July 29, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

HB Ando

I hereby nominate your 1:02 a.m. post as the best of the entire summer!

You really summed up what so many of us feel.

And even more perplexing is the notion that they could possibly be so oblivious as to underestimate the PR nightmare they face, should they fail to lock this kid down.

SO true! I don’t think they understand what kind of hit the have already taken in the minds of future free agents who are watching and saying to themselves “no way I go there and put up with that sh!t”.

Not to mention JJ and Horford, who have to be saying WTF?

By MannyT

July 29, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

new blog up

By terrell barron

July 29, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

You guys think it’s bad now, well just imagine if we had’ve taken Paul or Williams. They’d be up for an extension, Smoove’s contract would be up, and JJ would only have a couple of years left on his deal. What would they do in that kind of situation.? lol!! Smoove would probably be a goner. No way they’d pay over 50 mill for 3 players. lol!!

By nicky b

July 29, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

OKAY, AS A DIEHARD HAWK FAN SINCE THE DAYS OF ‘NIQUE,SPUD AND GOD REST HIS SOUL KONCAK, LET ME JUST SAY THAT YOU CAN QUESTION THE SANITY OF MY WANTING TO GET HARRINGTON, BUT DON’T QUESTION MY LOYALTY TO THE TEAM. HARRINGTON IS AN X FACTOR, HE SHOOTS THE THREE AND MAKES THOSE AROUND HIM BETTER. ALTHOUGH THEY DIDN’T WIN HE WAS HERE, I LOVED WATCHING HARRINGTON PLAY AND THINK THEY WERE ON THEIR WAY UP. MAYBE IT’S ME JUST WANTING TO JUSTIFY BUYING MY HARRINGTON THROWBACK, I DON’T KNOW, BUT I MISS THE DUDE AND THINK HE WOULD BE AN UPGRADE ON SMOOTH. SMOOTH’S ATTITUDE STINKS AND MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR ME TO WATCH THE GAMES.

By J-rough

July 29, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

While I do not agree Harrington is an upgrade for smoove, I do think he is better than his numbers show, he is versatile and playing out of position, but he can play out of position unlike many others, I think if Golden state keeps him his numbers are going way up now that they have turiaf as b/u C, Add in Brendan Wright(who can be smoove in a year or two without the tude) and I think its a slam dunk, why not? Odom is not going to help us, he only started doing well when there were 5 laker threats out there, we are NOT the Lakers, sorry… flame me all you want but I would do that in a heartbeat, and so would you next summer after you see the numbers Bwright and Al put up this year… I liked the Harrington days, same thing management too cheap to keep him. get rid of the cancer NOW…

By jukey clickle

July 29, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

I hear ya, nicky b. Its about time we get someone with cents up in hear. That’s why he was referred to as Captain Al. We need his vet leadership. These fools don’t understand he be playing the 4 now. Him, Marvin and the other Big Al be the strongest frontline in the EAST! With dime and JJ in the backcourt, ooohh watch out Celtics! It’s like a whole nother Nique/Bird rivalry days again. And I love your Koncak reference. Was there ever a better duo than him and Tree Rollins? Only Harrington can bring us back to those glory days.

By rex in effect

July 29, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this

Do I need to be the voice of reason here? We all know Harrington for Smoove straight up is ridiculous. But we also know Smoove does not want to be here or else he would’ve signed already. Let’s give more credit to the ASG, they want him here. But obviously the guy doesn’t care about winning because if he did he would see the potential we have and he’d be inked by now. There’s no reason to take on a huge salary from another team, so let’s take this offer of the Wolves #1 and Al’s expiring contract. Not only is his contract expiring, but we know we’re going to get 18 and 6 every night, pretty similar to Smoove’s numbers, and he can spread the D with his deadly 3 now. Something he didn’t have with us when he played earlier. Smoove thinks he’s got a shot, but his 25% from 3 point does nothing but kill us.

By Reezon

July 29, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

Some serious Hawks knowledge be tossed around here with the names of Tree Rollins and Jon Koncak. Makes me wonder what the hell you were smokin when you suggest trading J-Smoove for Al Harrington. Just wanted to make sure you didn’t leave the likes of Sly Williams, Cliff Levingston and Randy Wittman out of this party. Oh yeah, and my favorite of all time, my boy Scott Hastings.

By J-rough

July 29, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

I don’t know I’d rather bypass wolves and deal direct with warriors for Bwright and Harrington than getting wolves pick, just me…

By Jed

July 30, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

J-Rough is a genius. I’m e-mailing Mullin right now.

By J-rough

July 30, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

jed, u clownin’ me, all this talk, I alone have the reason and rhyme to know whats up, Bwright is Smoove in a couple years without the tude and would want to play his butt off every night, Al has developed a 3 shot and gotten versatile and really in shape it seems, I think this works, or ya maybe Lakers send us Kobe, I sure do not want Odom though, do you? I am presenting VIABLE alternatives, or maybe we could get carmelo for Smoove? whats your great idea? Smoove doesn’t want to play here and we don’t want to pay him what he deserves and it is not any secret, what would you do? or just cap on someone for trying to give their input

By geo

July 31, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

the hawks will never get value for js in a sign & trade deal.la & phoenix will not deal.js is a great player,he can do it all. he is a great passer even tho at times he forces play. he has great energy & does it all. charles barkley is right when he says the hawks have a flaed offence. jj dribbles & holds on to the ball eating up the shot clock. he took the ball out of bibbys hands in the play off & as a result no easy shots. woody let this go on all season. they will never win with woody.the other hawk other than js on the hawks who can play defence is horford. jj ,law,zaza,marvin &jc are horrible defenders. i blame woody for there horrible offence & defensive liabilitys. he has had enough time to develope a better offence. i really wonder if bibby is over the hill but i really believe jj has to let bibby take over the offence & stop hogging the ball. it appeared that when bibby first came here jj looked better because he was getting the ball & shooting this is what he has to do not dribble all the time away. he never could have played for the knicks as they won with teamwork & ball movement.gee,what an original concept. please sign js

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